Star. — London, England, 1811-01-15 00:00:00

_ .--- - • I PdALMMEMWRr PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, MONDAY, JAN. 14. CONFERENCE WITH THE COMMONS. . The yarl of LIVER POOL. moved, that a Message be seat to the Commons, acquainting t! er , that this Hones desires a Int -1 sent Conference in the Pain ed Chamber touching the subject of the Resolutions voted by tlys House on Friday last ; which being moved accordingly, the Masters in Chancery present repaired to the House of Commons, and on their return, reported that t►e Commons had agreed to the desired Conference. A Deputation was then appointed to manage the Conference en the part of their Lordships consisting of the Lord Privy Seal (Earl of Westmoreland) the Earl'. of Liverpool, Mount Edge eutulte, and Plandere, t►e Bishop of Killala, Lords Napier and Walsingham, Mr. QUAR:I a, Acting Usher of the Black Rod, acquainted their Lordships, that the Commons were waiting the Confer once in the fUnted Chamber, on which the above-mentioned Peers went forth. U. the return of the depotatin a, the Earl of Westmoreland repor• ted to the Meuse, mat the Conference which was managed on the part of the Commons by Lord Clive, bad taken pluce ; when their Lordships Resolution of Friday last was duly communicated. The House then adjourned till to-morrow, when the Session of Parliament win be regularly opened by Commiaion : and on which occasion the Lords are summoaed. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. Alderman COMBE presented the petition of the Livery of London, praying,that the Prince of Wiles may be appointed Regent, without restrictions or limitations. The peduon was laid on the table. A Message was brought from the Lords, desiring a conferente wit► this House. The Managers on the last Conference were appointed to manage the pre►ent one. On their return Lord CLIVE read at the Bar the Resolution. of the Hoye of Lords (entered into on Friday) for opening the Parliament, which Resolution the Lords desired this House to goncnr• with. The Resolution was brought up, and referred to the Commit tee on the State of the Nation. TIME DZFAULTERS. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER the names of the defaulters on the last Call of the House were called over, when Sir James Stewart, Mr. Albany Seville, Mr. Hans Hamilton, Mr. Jame► Daly, Mr. M. Are Wall, Sir G. F. Hill, and Mr. A. French, were ord red to be taken into custody. Mr. Sneyd, Mr. 11. J. Clements, and two other Members, were ordered to appear in their places on this day se'nnight. Several other Members (sufficient grounds being stated to the House for fhetr absence) were excused. OPINING OF PARLIAMENT. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the Day for the House to go in to a Committee on the State of the Nation. The House having gone into the Committee, and the Resolution of the House of Lords brought up by Lord CLIVE, having been referred to the said Com mittee, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose, and adverting to the Resolution which the Chair man (Mr. Lushington) was about to read, suggested to the Committee, that there would be no necessity for reading the whole of it, as it had been read at the Bar, and was merely a recitation of the Letters Pa ' tent for opening the Parliament. The Right Hon. Gentleman then observed, that he should not deem it necessary to preface the motion which he was about, to make with many observations, as during the whole course of the proceedings, taken on this occa sion, the Committee must be %ware it would ultl- mately lead to the one he wonrd now propose. No doubt every Gentleman wits of opinion, that after the concurrence which had taken place between the two Houses, and after the communications made" to his Royal Highness the Prince of Wales and her Ma jesty of the Resolutions of the Houses, that a Reso lution would be proposed similar to the one just read at the Bar. The course of proceeding adopted in 1789, was exactly, in point, now under considera;::on; and no part of the precedent was more completely established at that time than this : that under a Com mission similar in point of form, the Parliament was opened, and continued to sit, even after the happy pe riod of his Majesty's recovery, transacted business Without any reference to I . ...cceeding Commissions.— He trusted, therefore, coat in making the motion, the Committee l':;erid see the policy of acceding to it.— ' He f2;uuld simply move, " That the Committee de agree with the Resolution brought up from the Lords, ordering the necessity of issuing Lettcrs Pa' tent fora Commission to open the Parliament." On the question being put, Mr. SHERIDAN rose and said, that as on a for mer day the Right Hon. Gentleman had expressed a wish for delay in the decision of this question, in con sequence of the great importance of the subject and the length to which the debate was likely to be car ried, he was a little surprised at the course pursued by the Right Honourable Gentleman that night. He Could not have expected that he intended merely to',, ask of Parliament to conform to the precedent ofi :1788 is all its points : but, on the contrary, he did expect that he Would have opened the subject to a *,new Parliament, one in which there were so few of those Members who were present at the discussions in 1788. It would unquestionably have been much more respectful, at least to the Committee, to have , given them some reasons why they should consent to adopt this most extraordinary mode of proceeding. But the Right Honourable Gentleman said, that if ....there Was any part of the precedent which wa.., estab • .lisheamine-fully than another, it was that which re . fated to the use now to be made of the Great Sea.— Now he (Mr. Sheridan) . would contend that Parlia went was in another sitnation--:in • a different predi cament from that in which it stood in 1788, At that time, the majorities in both Houses were such as to - render any distinct opposition to t'ie proceeding use. less and hopeless. Then an Honrurable 1 fiend of his had withdrawn from illness ; and others did not think it necessary, under all the circumstances, to take any particular part on this branch of the subject, after what had heen already said. There was ano ther circumstance also which put Parliament at pre-, sent in a -very different situation from that in which itwas only a fortnight ago. He knew that there was irregularity in mentioning matter that had oc curred in another House ; but was there no difference with respect to the well-known proceedings of the other House—between the present case and that of 1798 ? Suppose the other flow to have resolved differently from the House of Commons, and they Might see a case which would actually involve the ex . tinction of the whole Executive Government ; it was . known, he might be permitted at least to say,' by ru • mour. thit the House of 'Lords, in their Committee, lad, in the first ipitauce, noted agairlt-the Reeolur -.~ ~ , , • : ' . ' W!A. , x 7 151, • don of the Committee of the Cotturtoost that they had resolved in favour of A Regent, not subject to re strictions and limitations. Suppose the Lords to have persevered in that vot , -, and not to have been drawn from it by the apprehension of dangerous con. 'sequences : if the other House had persisted in their 'resolution, and this important difference of opinion lad continued, he desired to know whether the Right Honourable Gentleman had within his power any remedy to apply for the purpose of making a legal Executive Government, without which they could not legislate ? Why, there could . be nothing less than a total extinction of the Government of the ccuntry. Now, let the Right Honourable Gentleman reflect biow very near happening all this had actually been ~What right had he to say that similar differences might not exist ? Why might they not again arise, and in their results deprive the country of a legiti mate Government? What had already occurred might surely occur again ; indeed, he thought it was extremely probable that such would be the case. If, therefore, it was not too late, he should decidedly prefer to the present mode, some mode which might extricate them from the difficulties in which they were likely to involve themselves. As for delay in the earlier stages of their proceedings, lie certainly ad mitted for himself, that he felt no desire to be preci pitate: on the contrary, though reluctantly and with regret differing from many of his friends, he had been 1 favourable to some delay, whenever lie had heard that it was likely, by granting it, that the recovery of his Majesty would soon put an end to this neCess sity of taking any farther steps. But again, let the House recollect that they were not in the same situa tion which they were in only a fortnight ago. At that time the House of Commons had not usurped any of the functions of the Executive Power; but manifestly they had done so since that period; there. fore they ought not now to delay a single moment in adopting the means of terminating such an usurpa tion—(Hoer hear.) The usurpation, at that time, was on the part of the Ministers ; but now, circum stances had led them to abdicate their usurpation to the House of Commons ; though he would venture to say, if he might be allowed the expression, that the usurpation of the Ministers was a more constitutional. usurpation than that of the House of Commons— (Hear.) It was better that they should, in such an exigency, carry on the Executive Goiernment, and take the chances of their responsibility, than that the Executive Power should be seized by the House of Commons. Here he need hardly say, that he re ferred to the monstrous act of seizing on the King's Exchequer. After several observations on this trans action, he said that Lord Grenville could not have r acted otherwise than he did. His. Lordship had said, in effect—“, I will not usurp the Preroga tives of the Crown ; but do you go, and apply to Parliament to do that." In the case of a prorogation and 'of the necessity of paying the army and navy, it might have been different, and an individual must risk his responsibility for a necessary act. Parliament sitting, Lord Grenville was right in telling Ministers to go there. But the principle on which Parliament had proceeded, might be pushed to the full extent of taking the whole executive power into their own hands. Suppose a question of negotiation for peace, or of fitting out and sending abroad an army and a fleet, Parliament might be justified in transacting .such great public executive business, by a Secret Committee for instance, just as much as they could for the commission of that monstrous Act which he had already called to their recollection. The 'situa tion of affairs rendered it more and more eligible to resort to the shortest way of getting aid of this sys. tem of usurpation. If they chose to go on as they had done, they might as well order the Great Seal to be affixed to an act to extinguish the kingly power altogether. (Hear, hear.) He did not intend to trouble the House with dividing; but the question he wished to put to them was, whether this circuitous mode of proceeding was the quickest way of arriving at their object ? Or, whether it was not a better mode to resolve upon a plain, direct address to the Prince of Wales, requesting him to open the Parlia ment, and to take upon himself the administration of the civil and military powers °Caw country • to open the Parliament, not as a Regent, but unt il the Rei gency is Provided ? That would not interfere with their precedent, as to the mode of proceeding by Bill to enact a Regency. See the distinction between the , one mode, and that of addressing the Prince, as he recommended, to open Parliament himself for no longer time than until such Bill of Regency should pass. The plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman pre sented a number of possille and probable difficulties, if ever they came into a situation which might defeat its object. Then tee whole plan must fall to the growal, if the di tferen:e of opinion of the two Houses shruid recur; and thus, as he had said before, there would be an extinction of the Government. (Hear.) He supposed it -as to be taken for granted,that Lard Eldon would put the Great Seal to the Commission for opening Parliament. The Right Honourable Gentleman, he supposed, knew Lord Eldon's deter mination o that point. Bet was he quite ao sure, that Lord .ldon would pot it to an Act to create the Regent ? There was some difference between the ii•ts of using the Great Seal, for the opening of Par liament, and for the creation of a Regent. There might be some excuses made for seizing on the Great Sea: for the former purpose, and the fiction to be made use of,-might find a justification in necessity. But the other use of the Seal was entirely against law ; it was against the act of the 33d of Henry the , Eighth, and the Act of Charles the Second, which made it high treason to legislate without the three branches of the Legislature. Would Lord Eldon . use the Great Seal in that manner ? If he would not, why then, they were all thrown on their backs. Did the Right Hon. Gentleman know from any good ,information, or ,from any traditionary authority, that Lord Thurlow would have affixed the Great Seal to that Act ? He (Mr. Sheridan) declared that the bias of the inclination pf his mind was, that Lord Thur. low would have stopped at that second act. But if it were not so, if he had done it, could it have more weight than if the Prince new took upon himself the opening of Parliament in Consequence of an Address? Would the Great Seal give any greater authority to the Regency Bill, by using it in the manner now proposed ? (Hear.) He wished to ask the Crown Lawyers on the opposite benches, who certainly were no; yet exhausted by the display either of their law or their rhetoric, in the discussions that had recently taken place for their opinions--(Hear, hearl-446 - • • - Wr r -A . • • 7F; '*;'i'~;~F;'P; 00: 1 •= - -T ".r • . ' .... .' ' . the they did not think that the sanction given to a. said the Right Tlon. Gentleman opposite, " differ 1 legislative act of Regency by the Prince of Wales from the House of Lords as soon as convenient, and i himself, would net be superior to that mode which that will be sure to produce harmony 1"--teek ej a.) ! they proposed ? Again, he did not wish to say But what was the course of the Right Hon. Gentle any thing with unbecoming levity ; but suppose man's speech ? why, he in proceeding feigned to feel Lord Eldon were to die, would they then seize on how weak and shallow his arguments were, and in the Great Seal ? Or, suppose Lord Eldon should conclusion, instead of supporting manfully the Con refuse to use it ; my Lord Eldnn might say : stitution, refused, as he had promised on the F r id ay i " It is against my conscience !" as Mr. Larpent preceding, "to make his stand."--4A/eqh.) T h a t i i had said concerning the use of the Privy Seal.— this was the fair interpretation of' the Right Ho. I Though his Lordship was Keeper of the King's nourable Gentleman'sarguments could not Le denied Conscience, he must be allowed to have also a —(Near, hear.) .. But then," said the Right Ho ' conscience of his own, and thht was a matter of nourable Gentleman opposite, " the House was in a Iwhich his Lordship could entertain no doubt.— different situation to what they stood fourteen days (Hear, hear.) Would they then order some persons ago ; and therefore yon had better adopt my sug. who they knew would obey them, to seize the Great gestion, which, however, I will net follow up my. Seal and put it to the Act ? Accidents might easily self."—" Why, the very adoption of the suggestion happen. It was but the other night that the Right would tend (said Mr. Perceval) to produce what the Honourable Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of Right Honnureble Gentleman seems anxious to avoid the Exchequer) and the Lord Chancellor, had the --difference of opinion and delay !"— (Hear, hear!) misfortune to be overturned together upon Hounslow- If any of the difficulties which seemed so much to heath ! ( Laughing) an accident which might possibly , alarm the Right Honourable Gentleman were to arise, have occasioned most serious loss to the country—; and the Prince was called upon to use the Great Seal, almost as bad as the loss of the Great Seal ? (Much how could he get at it by Address, earlier than by laughing.) Anotheralarmingaccident had shortlyafter. • the present mode proposed ? Perhaps the Right Ho. wards very nearly happened to the Lord Chancellor, nourable Gentleman would inform him, as he heel the from some heavy carriage, or something else, in the means of communication with his Royal Highness ; public streets. What it really was he could not precisely but the real question was, whether it would be more tell. It might have been the phantom of the grand respectful to the Prince of 'Wales, to invest his Royal fiction of 1788, rising from the dark abyss, indignant Highness with the powers of Government, by Bill, at being again called upon, after the 14pse of two or by Address ? For his (Mr. Percevalts) part; he and twenty years, to do the tame tort of job he had then did apprehend the more respectful way would be by been compelled to perform ! (Much Laughing.) The B:11, especially as the Princes of the Blood had, from course (continued Mr. Sheridan) which the Right motives of delicacy, desired their names not to be in. Honourable Gentleman had stated to be right, was eluded in the Commissien for opening the Parliament. not the right, straight, constitutional road of arriving Would the Committee think it mere decorous that at the desired point. The Chancellor of the Exche- the Act should be done by his Royal Highness alone? quer supposed that the precedent of 1788 justified all With respect to what the Right Honourable Gentle that was now passing ; but he thought he would man had said about the reluctance of my Lord Thar. hardly attempt to follow it in many parts. In 1788 low to put the Great Seal to an Act of the two this fiction was not passed untia the whole of the plan Houses, it was not, in his opinion, necessary to in was before Parliament. The Honourable Member quire what that Noble and Learned Lord would have then enumerated several circumstances, relative to done in 1788 ; but he believed that it was not likely the proceedings on the precedent of 178 S-0. The Bill that the then Lord Chancellor would have let the was then brought into the Lords • without the specifi. proceedings have gone so far as to make it necessary, cation of any limitations of time, and was very nearly if he had thehloubts to refuse the Great Seal to eu so carried. It was not yet too late for the House to act, which, under circumstances like the present, the recover themselves, and to resort to another course two Houses of Parliament had judged expedient of proceeding, not inconsistent with a Bill for enact- should be passed into law. The Noble and Learned ing the Regency. But the Right Honourable Gen- Lord he could not believe would have so conducted tleman would say, that if they now proheeded to ad- himself; it might have happened, that if the health dress the Prince of Wales, and after his Royal High- , of his'Majesty should be so far recovered as to induce ness had opened the Parliament, brought in a Bill, hopes of a restoration to the functions of Goiemment he might refuse his assent to the Bill, and then dis- in a moderate time, then he might think it necessary solve the Parliament. (Hear.) That would •be a to come to Parliament and state his opinion end his most unworthy suspicion ; besides it was a supposed reason for demurring to put the Great Seal. But for danger that it was quite in their power to guard the Right Honourable Gentleman to seepese that against. But it should not be forgotten, that no at- , any Noble and Learned Lord holding that high ofE. tempt whatever had been made, in the shape of an cial situation, would refuse, was supposing too much. answer to the arguments drawn from the precedent Greatly as he respected the abilities of that great cha. of the Revolution. No suspicion, he must suppose, ' raver, he would not even suppose such a case, he could find an existence in the mind of any man, that would not believe it either of the Noble Lord, or of if they addressed the Prince of Wales to open Parlia- his Noble Friend the present Chancellor. The Right ment, and to take upon himself the ailminetration of Honourable Gentleman could not serioutly mean t' the Government, stating tile restrictions which they suppose that his Noble Friend would intend to defeat had provided he their Resolutions, no suspicion so •, or defraud the Constitution. (Hear. hear.) As to indecent, he would repeat, could harbour in the breast the other fanciful cases of death put by the Right of any body as to lead him to doubt of the Prince's Honourable Gentleman, he did not feel himself justi. agreeing to.a Bill passed by the Lords and Commons' fled in' anticipating more difficulties then the Houses in conformity to those restrictions already stated to really experienced ; but if such a serous calamity his Royal Highness. (Hear.) As he had taken an should occur, he should have no difficulty in propos. early opportunity, in the course of the few observe-' ing the remedy. Without cating that remedy now, tions he had made, to say that he had no intention it would be enough ler him to say, " that sufficient to press -the House to a , division, he should not ! for the day is the evil thereof.'' (Hear, hear.) The trouble them farther. His only object was to express ' Resolution now proposed to he adopteti,he trusted was his disapprobation of the monstrous mode of proceed. ' such as the Committee would not hesitate to sanction. ing by a fiction in the use of the Great Seal; and to ' Mr. SHERIDAN rose to say a few words in re state to the House distinctly the view he had of the ply to the Right Honourable Gentleman, who must shortest, surest, and most constitutional way of ex-; certainly have misunderstood what had fallen from tricating them from their present difficulties—of i him on Friday. When he had stated his intention putting an end to an unconstitutional and dangerous ' on that day, he had no idea whatever of making any usurpation of the Executive Power—and of establish- I motion, as might well have been collected from the ing a legal Government in the Country. By that ' expression he I;ad used, as he distinctly used the word mode they would best fill up the lamented deficiency I protest, which in Parliamentary langnage meant the in the kingly office, and best consult the nature of !expression of principle, without argument or motion, the Constitution, and the genuine interests of the na- As to what the Right Honourable Gentleman had tion at large. said with respect -es the violence with which he had The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, ' stated his opinion (eh improper violence observed the in reply to the observations of the Right Honourable ; CHANce.Lost of the EXCIMQUER acrol the.table,) the Gentleman, was not prepared to admit, that the i substantive it was he denied, without any reference to course he had adopted this day was extraordinary, in the adjective f but as to all that had been said not opening the proposition more in detail. He ap. on that head, he must observe, that the Right Hon. pealed to Gentlemen, whether the ground upon which irdnAleinan, thinking that be (Mr. S.) would have he postponed the proposition, was not to give an op-1 come prepared with a stock of violende, ha 4 brought portunity to that Right Hon. Gentleman and his phis own stock of violence with him to be used on the colleagues, to make what he was pleased to denomi- ; occasion, which he had let off without any provoca nate " a stand" against die proposition. Teet was tion. The Right Hon. Gentleman, too, thought pro the reason of the postponement, as it tens uneersteod per, in olaserving upon what had fallen from him, to by Gentlemen on the opposite side, that the length , allude to his communications with his Royal High. to which the discussion on their part would run, ness the Priuie of Wales. Upon this point he felt it might make it inconvenient to meet on Saturday.—' necessary to disclaim distinctly, that any thing he , With this view, then, he (Mr. Perceval) must also be said in that House proceeded from any communica : allowed to express his astonishment, that the Right tion with that illustrious Personage. The sentiments r Hon. Gentleman, in making this stand and in sug .' he uttered there, he delivered as an independent Mem. ! gesting the propriety of another course of proceeding, I ber of Parliament, without any authority whatever should have concluded his speech, and sat down with- I from the quarter alluded to. But as to his commu . out making any amendment. (Hear, hear.) If the ' nications with the Prince of Wales, the 'tight Hon. Right Hon. Gentleman had condescended to inform Gentleman might easily have accounted for them by the House on Friday, that the course we had now I referring to the friendship of that illustrious Person. taken was the way in which he meant to make his ' age, which le had so long had the honour of enjoying; " stand for the Constitution," then he should not far' by reflecting that he was one of his Royal Highness's put off the business—(4 laugh)—thinking from the I servants and a Member of his Council, having taken I specimen which the Right Honourable Gentleman an oath similar to that taken by the Members of his had given that the necessity for delay had not been I Majesty's Privy Council . As to the dilemma to which made apparent. (gear, hear.) The Right lion. the Right. Hon. Gentleman seemed to think he had Gentleman had, however, rsade use of arguments' reduced him, by stating that at a time when he de. which he begged the Committee would attend t0.—. 1 precated the consequences of any difference betweeu These arguments, uttered with much force and vithi the two' Houses, he was recommending to the Com , lence, the Right Honourable Gentleman had stated, I mittee to differ with the Lords ; he did so recom . were used for the purpose of promoting union of sen. l mend to the Committee td differ with the Lords re timent in both Houses: but what, in point of fact,' specting the Resolution upon the table: but as the was the effect ? Why ! to induce the CoMmittee to two Houses had already agreed to the Resi batons disagree with the House of Lords_—(Hear, hear.)— I respecting the Regency and its limitations, and these for that was the practical effect of the Right, Hun Resolutions had .been accepted by the Prince, they Gentleman's speech. The Right Hon. Gentleman I had now only to decide as to the mode of carrying had taken great pains to state the possible irconve. the Resolutions into effect; and he could see no see. niences which might arise to the country in conse. son why the . Lords might not agree to the proceeding quence of a difference between thehwo Houses; and l by Address for that purpose. But the Right Ho. at the moment when the two Houses were ag r eed, nourable Gentleman had said, that even in that ewe be then suggested a course of proceeding which must the Prince could not call a Parliament without the indubitably produce that difference—(Heir, hear.)_ use of the Great Seal. Where was the Right The Committee then, without any proposition from Honourable Ceutleman's knowledge of history ? the Right Hon. Gentleman, were to be fascinated by Had he not admitted, that the Prince would have his arguments into a difference with the other House. beep as fully possessed of the powers of the Go- In the name of common sense he (Mr. Pereogal) must vernment, if appointed by Address as by Bill ? Did enter his protest against suck argemenp.—o Let tss," the itighs lionourahle Gentleman not recollect the • • . . tO 9 COUI a ~. elm coa vote the I to d Wen *ll that Loe fro &tit plc whc Ostia disc !th e POt Ge Ro sot ton va, tha bir sir be r bt