Star. — London, England, 1816-03-21 00:00:00

:1 J 5. Mt !dp ecn ctwilrcall their EP . , . . vat t hose in that Houle, *in whosesuiinds it WO SO ( , defence of,bad acts to assert that others were equollr guilty of them.—(llear, G over n men t would, t h ere _ 11l upon Government co redeem the Ro I • - .___ _ _ Yu lor e, Ca.- e dge, and to preserve-the inviolability of the plig - oo era f a ith of their Prince. It was in vain for them u ream If to those who called for a true system ; m ote --- - of r econo nsy..lf it be clamour to watch with a jealous eye th e proceedings of Ministers, he ( Mr. Methuen) Il i a d no objection to be called clamorous. It was tu suc h clamour the people of England owed their libert i e s, and the abandonment of the odious measure o f t he Income Tax.— (Hear, Heer.)—For his own he would no longer support the measures of Government, except so far as they at'neared to ceos nate from a spirit of economy. The Honourable umber concluded by moving a Resolution expres sive o f their approbatioa of the Order of January, „ Inn . which regulated the Admiralty Salaries in peace, and also the total dissent of the House from t h e policy which led to a departure from the fo s ystem, and the increase of salaries which rmer s a d, io conbequence, taken place. lord CASTLEREAG H said, that whenever a r „~jpn was put in a fair• manner before the House, h e would neither quarrel with the mode in which it was brought forward nor call it clamour. Bot he bad a r ight to complain of a disposition to clamour on the part of those Gentlemen who imputed to Mi nisters a want of intention to fulfil their pledge. He did co mplain of clamour, when there appeared a pre. mature disposition to condemn the Members of the G over nment before they could be prepared to explain their conduct, respecting the economy they had pro visa, and meant to carry into effect. He hoped then that . the House would not be indisposed to af ford them an opportunity of :hewing that they had sot made any lavish expenditure of public money ; and that no confidence would be withdrawn until a period arrived at which they should be able to lay tke whole of their proceedings in regard to the changes about to be made in public offices before the Howe. There were arrangements now going for ward for establishing plans of public economy, they were in their progress, but could not be immediately tarried into effect. The Government hoped shortly , to be able to lay before the House such documents as would shew the extent and nature of the retrench menu that were to be made, particularly in the mili• i ll y department, but this could not be dune all at we. He would now state some of the retrench ments to which he alluded. In the department of the Secretary of State there was a reduction of seven clerks, one writer, and an interpreter ; the saving t h us made amounted to between three and £4OOO p er m um. The reduction in the War Office was not yet ascertained, as the accounts of the army were not made out. In this Paymaster General's Office there was a saving already made of (1131,000 a year, by the dionissal.of clerks, and by the reduction in tended to be made in establishments abroad the whole saving in that department would be M. 1 ,(100 a year. In the Commissariat department the reduc tion in officers and clerks would be very consider able, and produce a saving of £lOO,OOO. The total reduction in the Storekeeper's department would cause a saving of ten thousand pounds. Some saving would take place in the Barrack department, but they were sot yet made out. nom the AdmiraLy *clerks and nine messengers had been already dis charged, and thus a saving of five thousind pounds a year would be produced. In the Navy Office there was a saving of £4,000. In the Victualling Office the saving wos X 25,000. There was a farther saving with regard to artificers. The Tral:spor, Office was discontinued altogether. No return had yet been made from the Ordnance Office, nor from tome smaller Offices • but every thing already done proved how diligently Government was occupied in making retrenchments. The total amount of the savings already made amounted to £650,000 a year ; aid independently of these there were severa other este blithments not yet reduced. His object ia men tioning the above statements was to shew that Mini sters were not employed in the creating of offices.— The question now before the House did not take its origin at the present time, it had beets brought fur. ' ward in 1806 ; and when Mr. Percival was at the bud of the Government, in consequence of the great incase in the excise revenue, he did consent to an is ease of salary to the officers. At the present time, the Gentlemen in question collected a revenue if set less than forty millions per annum ; twenty Mims of increased revenue had passed through therhands before any increase was made in their sa lines ; and surely there could be no better mode of stimulating their exertions than by giving them an *legume remuneration for the services they perfor ated. There was imposed on them a great increase of labour and responsibility, and surely they were en titled to an increased reward. Under these circum stances, the Treasury thought it would be promoting the interests of the public to give adequate remune ration to these Gentlemen. The salaries which were inadequate during the war, were adequate now; and Ite would put it to the House, whether any thing could serve the revenue better than toelevate those emplayed 'collecting so large a portion of it as 40 millions ? The whole additional expense was £75,000, and that !e . l was no more than these Gentlemen were end ued to as a matter of right. Besides, it must be ftlsidered, that the diminution in prices of necessa- Iles had taken place only in some very few articles, ?sly in bread and meat. The Gentlemen in question "led forward- to this fair remuneration in peaje,' aid it was no more than they were justly entitled to. As to the change that had taken place in the salaries of Persons at the head of the Admiralty, lie must sly, that the Honourable Gentleman had departed 'tom the general principle already laid down ; for be had said nothing about the salaries of the other per ". employed •at the Admiralty. It was irregular , L ' o ,b ( Olg forward a motion on a particular salary 'More that salary came to be discussed in a proper forml in the House So far back as the year 1807, Mir . principl e o f 1800 was a pplicable to all persona e mployed in the Admiralty and Navy Offices. A illea wrial was then presented, and the Order in Connell was altered. The Honourable Gentleman, the • Secretary of the Admiralty, was no party to that gyration, because he wished to shew that he did note et _to make it a question personally applying to vi nl 11 1 but those alterations came from the Board Admiralty, and were agreed to by the Treasury ; 4 " 3 b e could assure the' House that his Honourable rllod'aft Var. Ctoker) was wholly indifferent whether' T ie] tall] ,peJ Arai WV rvnl ,3~str~ I stil 1 hel ;led ntallY esty'' optIO• WV/ then - ~ -'.: ; • • 4 Nfraarary was Heed 'at BIM Or' 1300 The question was agitated with the &mid of o.doni 'mitt after the peace .with America, and before flit breaking of of the late war with France, when the business of the Adroirarty wag attended with as much labour as it had been at any fornier period: The Admiralty, therefore, applied to the Board of Trea sury' to alter the regulation respecting salaries. and it was considered proper to take a common standard as between war and peace, at a time when the buiiness• was as great as in an actital period of war. There was no situation more important, of more efficiency, or of greater personal labour and confidence, than that which Was now filled by his Honourable Friend; and besides, it was of. the utmost importance, that the office should be filled by a person of high honour • and character, in whom the secrets of the country might be safely trusted. The office, ever since the peace, w3s one of immense personal labour. The whole scale of our Navy was so altered of late years, by the increase of ships, Officers, and stations, as to make the office much more laborious than it ever had been before. The Secretary of -the Admiralty, so far from being a Gentleman it large in time of peace, had incessant labour without any relaxation in the duti?s of his station, as well in peace as in -war. He trusted, that when the proper tint?. for the consideration of the question would come, the House would see his Majesty's Government had exercised a sound judgment en this occasion. Ttiat time would be, when the Navy Estimates were regulaity before the Huse ; and he, therefore, thought the pre.ent motion premature. With that view he should move the Order of the Day on th?...questi , in, not in order to preclude it from due consideration, but that that consideration should be afforded to it on the regular occason. Mr. HENRY MARTIN did not think the Noble Lord had made out aufcase, and he considered the Hon. Gentleman whO brought the question before the House entitled to the gratitude .f the country. Mr. WAR!) did not consider that the Noble Lord. had given one satisfactory argiiment for the increase of the salary in question. The Secretary of the Ad miralty, previous to the Peace ot Amiens, hid more to do than the Secretary of the Admiralty at present. Yet the Secretary of that day had but stS(K)O a•year, and was not that sufficient now, in time of peace, when there was less to do ? The Noble Lord said, that 100 revenue cutters were added to the Secretary of the Admiralty's department; but if they were, they were taken from another department, and no di. minutiou in We sentries of that other department re sulted from the ch .nge. Mr. ROBINSON differed totally with the Hon. Gentleman who bi ought forward this question, if he objected to the increase of salary on principle. The Honourable Gentleman might think the salary too much ; but he coald not agree with him, thu there ought not to be as high a salary in time of peace as .n time of war. This was a situation of much con. tidence, of much responsibility, and of great labour— a situation that absorbed all tile faculties of mind and body ; and •though the duties of it might not be entirely so arduous now as in time of war, every con sideration required that the salary should not be di. tarnished. Mr. WARD explained. Mr. VERNON urged the necessity of economy in every branch of the lisatto, and said that he had voted for the Income Tam il as hang, in his opinion, directly conducive to economy; Those, therefore, who sup ported that measure on such principles, sit , uld feel themselves bound to look with extreme jealousy to every point which could, by the - remotest possibility, increase the public burdens. Matters, apparently trifling, demanded this attention particularly, for, according to a good old adage, it we take care of the shillings, the rounds will take care of themselves.— He c inceived a reduction in the labour of those °di cers, a sufficient calm for reducing their salaries, And if twelve hoer. a day were p4id by /4000 a year, he thought six hours a day sufficiently remune; rated by £3OOO. Mr. BROUGHAM hoped, that the good reasons adduced by his Honourable Friend for reducing the salaries of the Secretaries of the Admiralty, would operate on Gentlemen opposite. The House were called upon to soppert those reasons, particularly 'in matters like the present, which involved a principle of economy, and were important in proportion as their amount seemed trifling. He was induced to offer himself to the attention of the House, in con seqtteoce of what fell on a former night front the Nuide Lord *opposite, who, in allusion to the pro posed increase of salaries, requested the House to suspend their judgments. He had now heard the Noble Lord's defence--he had heard his explanation, not on this particular subject only, but on other matters of retrenchment; but never was 'defence more lame and impotent. He did not know whe ther the Noble Lord would give him credit for his assertion, but he would assure him, that he had listened with impatience for a successful defence of this measure ;—he was anxious to learn how the matter could be nolaimad away, for, indeed, a defence was not to be expected. An explanation was; however, to be looked for, particularly since the decision of Monday, and an assurance, that this increase of salary was not intended as permanent.— Bat no such explanation bad been given, and the measure was left by the Noble Lord, exactly as he found it, and the House were told of the necessity of raising the salaries of two particular officers, at a time when the general distress of the Country required the general , diminution of all. He would not follow the Noble Lord through the system of retrenchment in which the Ministers were lately employing them selves, because at another time it would come in de- . tail before the House. But in the estimate given by the Noble Lord,' vague as it must necessarily be, be cause retrenchment is a system at which the Noble Lord and his colleagues are as yet very inexpert— ( Hear) —it is a new line of operation—( Mew).— , In this vague estimate there were some points that deserved a few observations. The Noble Lord com menced that estimate with the Secretary of War's 10flize, and informed the House, that in that depart ment there was a diminution of seven officers, besides is few clerks; but under that head he had expected to have heard of a much more considerable reduc tion. The third Secretary was created for the war, and when that place was on a former occasion put in jeopardy in that House, by a motion from an Ho . nourable Friend of his, it bad been argued from the opposite beaches." What, will you destroy this of • • „ . Nee while the cnnntry is ,plunged in war; sehlle an' extreme necessity exists for its cositinuaice s wink we have occasion to equip and send out ri,lett;fluits This argument was Rot toshe cnntrad:cted, and the, motion was rejected, under the impression, that it . be renewed under snore favourable circumstances. — It was, however, to have been expected that in the' Noble Lord's budget of retrenchment, that office would have appeared most promineni, that the de partment Mould have been,cnt,Oif root and branch ; bht instead of that the Nook Lord suffices him ;ell ' by removing seven officers, and about 100 of the in ferior clerks. In the department of the Admiralty, several clerks have been removed ;- and the Noble Lord, as if to amuse the House by high-sounding numbers, informed them that 4000 officers were re- ' Juced, forming a saving to the co - entry of between four and £500,000 a-year. This undaubtedly looked like business; but what is the realty ?. It was only depriving so many artificers of their usual employ ments, saving to the country their daily wages, striking off the really useful men, the gangs of work men, and to these might as well have been added, alt the soldicrs and sailor s di sm i. se ,l the service; and the Noble Lord and his colleagues trii.,thr just as well. from thti; numbers, hav: taken credit for a marked spirit of economy. Bet these men were in reality re duced, because the war was over, and there was no work for them. It was impossible to keep them eat ing blocks, forging anchors, and twisting cables — so, brit,; useless, tll4 were driven from their employment t . and each ate the jeer: who the House were told had been reduced in tine spirit of economy—(Hear.)— This accusation, therefore, still results against the Ministry ; not that, like some of their predecessors, they pulled down with one hand while they raised with the other; but that, without attempting to ex crciie the leasslitninution, they raised up on ad sides, with the most lavish profusion, and, to use a com mon pi rase, attempted to sell the House with a thew of economy.—Clfear, hear.)—The neit item was the Commissariat ; but it should be remembered that the *clerks diminished in that department had been em ploed in the Peninsula, and the war being termina ted, there could be found no occasion for retaining them : so that all the economy which had as yet been practised, consisted in the reduction of some twenty clerks, and about forty or £50,000. He would now iirer to the attempt made to increase the salaries of two officers during a time of profound peace.— It was then a question for the House to consider, whether Mr. Croker should receive £1,090 a year in addition to his former £4,000, and Mr. Barrow £5OO a year in addition to his £1,500. On this point the Government were put on their defence, and in attempting it, they could not pretend to urge, that the _expense of living had lately increased..' On the contrary, it was a 'well Ewan) tact that it bad fallen from forty to fifty per cent. nor was it ever said that this increase was intended to be tem. pgrary. But even supposing that the expense of living had not decreased, why should Mr. Croker be better off than Sir Evan Nepean, who was Secretary of the Admiralty before him ? To Sir Evan Nepean were directed all those splendid dispatches at the early ' , art of the war, when the repeated triumphs of our navy proved how well that department had bees ad ministered. Sir Evan, at that period, was hardly able to enjoy even the necessary rest. His labour w..s sufficient, to use the words of the Hutt. Gentle• man -opposite ( Mr. Rob i nsun ) to a b , .0 Lb the Anergies of both mind and body. If, the-t, the former salary was enough for him during the active labour of war, why was it not sufficient for Mr. Croker during the time of profound peace ? (Hear, hear.) It was time enough to think of raising . Mr. Croker e s salary when his expense of living was increased ; but to put at present one thousand pounds a year into Mr. Croker's pocket, taken from the pockets of the peo. pie, was a scandalous and profligate waste of public money, a most profligate and infamous job—(boar) which every Ale in the country, who paid taxes, should meet with punishment, at least with censure. In thus expressing his sentiments, he meant no personal disrespect to the Gentlemen concerned; he did not mean the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Noble Lord, but the two Officers, because no charge had been brought against them. The Noble Lord had exculpated the Honourable Gentleman on the floor (Mr. Croker) from any participation in this job, and even Mentioned his issivililagaus to aCcept of the in crease. —(A 1444).-41e, however, could have wished 'that Honourable Gentleman to have been a little more resolute, and had gone a step further, by re• faring it altogether 1 Mr. Barrow stands, however, in a different state. For that Gentleman he entertained the highest respect, as one possessed of many great and valuable accomplishments; but the office of that Gentleman Was altogether unnecessary. It was created for the war, in Earl Spencer's Administra tion, and if it did not terminate on the cessation of hostilities, it at least should receive no increase of salary. The severity of employing Gentlemen in official situations, and subsequently depriving them of those places when they cannot betake themselves to any other line of life, has been dwelt on, but this argument, however it might apply in an extreme case to Mr. Barrow, (who, however, would, on retiring, be entitled to a pension), yet could not refer in any degree to Mr. Croker, whose office was merely poli tical, and if his friends went out to-morrow, Mr. Croker would have no claim to his salary. He con tended that the proposed augmentation should not be neglected, in consequence of its apparent unim portance ; for by a reference to the estimates on the table, this increase to Mr. Croker for doing no duty, amounted to half the entire sum voted to the widows and orphans of those gallant men who fought our battles, and secured our independence. One thousand pounds a-year was to be given to Mr. Croker, whose battles and services were confined to that House, and as a proof of Court favour.--(Hear, hear, hear). He trusted the House would reprobate such an at tempt, not because it was severe on many an honest man to contribute his share—not because extents in . aid were issued to wring a few shillings from unfor tunate wretches, who were compelled to sell their furniture to pay them—but, because the object was small, atuj would serve as a proof to the country that the House of Commons would guard their rislits, and not permit any greater extravagance. (Hear; hear.) The country, suns the vote of Monday night, looked to the House with gratitude ; he trusted that they would fulfil the further hopes (4f the people.— It was better than rais ing monampnts to the Stuarts, and paying honours. to the *tiros of legitimacy ; it • • I would. be mad totter, if, instead.of .raising Melnik ments to that family, they would profit by,their ample., Their fall had been occasi.uted by disregard. ingthc voice,of the people ; but they had some escuse in their religious prejudices and scruples; , But what escuses had those who find on such scruples— in whom one vice followed another—ertio collet s ted about them miqines as proflifate at them:elves. who suffered their gaols to remain crowded with un. happy wretches, lingering in the horrors of uacer. tainty, and yet not tarn from their scenes of vice to cast one thought on their miseries. .Such persons surrounded, as in such cases they mist he, by met. ,cenarrtroops, sent down to that House, r-tresting them to join is their profligacy. (Load chgring from the oitlsositi4n.) Mr. PZEL said, he did not rise to pinking the discussion as to whether the increase of the 'darks of the Secretaries to the Admiralty was or was net justifiable, but to express his opinion that there must be a general feeling of i , idignattion—( Ihro vides. and inn:sant cheering hum forth front all parer of rho haute.)—yes, he mutt repeat, a general feeling of indignation at the unfounded charg , s of the Hon. Gentleman, the unjust imputations he had raised, and the unfair insinuations he had thrown out on ob. jects to which the question before the House had no relation. Respecting the increase of salary, he could assure the House, tnat it was totally contrary to the wishes of his Right Henotirable Friend that the increase was attached to his office.— (Laueeke, aged sreties of Hear, hear.) It w AT. most unjust to charge this increase upon Ministers as a scandal U. job, on the consideration of Court favouritism. —(Hers the shout: were renewed : Mr. Peel made several, attenitsts to continue his :teeth, ht was obliged to desist till Mt cries of hear, hear, had subsided.) After some comments on the introductory part of the speech of Mr. Brougham, in which he denied that any retrenchments had been made, he contended that it would have been intmitaly more proper to have postponed the discussion till the Estimates were prepared. Nothing could be more invidious and unjust than the comparison between these salaries and the widows' pensions. It was im possible to estimate by any pecuniary situation, the value. of the military and civil services of dill rent persons. The very extent of the milit try service made it impossible to apportion to the relatives ti it due reward; and should their little pensions be a ground on which the salaries of the high civil ser vants of the public should be estimated ? The cam parison • of another Honourable Gentlem to betwean twelve hours' labour and six, might he very well ac cording to the rule of three; but would any Gen Le man admit that the criterion of salary of a puelic officer was to be the number of hours he was en. , ployed ? He weat. on to shew that the Order in Council of Juoe lost was necessary to revoke that of 1802, and contended, that the question whether it was expedient that the salaries of public officers in time of peace should be lowered, was not involved by this Order in Council, as the principle had only been acted upon in the case of the Admiralty. There was , no principle more injurious than to reduce salaries so as to confine the tenure of•public places of trust and confidence only to persons of independent fortune. Gentlemen who exerted their talents, AnJ gave tip their time to the public service, naturally lo• tied for ward to the means of acquiring an nviepreleitcy in return, and it WAS preposterous to deny that suet) es. . pectotions were unfair or unreasonable. , Mr. TLERNEY said, that a more ezrraordinar speech than that of the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) had never been heard within the w ills of Pat lionmt, and never had any speech obtained a more excroordi. nary reception. He had commenced with vehemently deprecating all clamour, with his usual design of es citing it among his friends: the purpose, however, had completely failed, for while the Noele Lord was clamouring against clamour, the Gentlerhen who sat near him observed a most melancholy and dishearten. iog silence—(Hear) —The silence was most profound, and gave a fine opportunity for the display of the musical tones of his Lordship's voice. Thus defeated by his own partizans, the Noble Lord then threw himself upon his character: no man, he hoped, would refuse to give him credit for a sincere and entices disposition to promote the utmost economy—but still the same awful silence was preserved. He (Mr. Tierney) had seen unfortunate persons on their trial at the Old Bailey, and the Noble Lord's situation was scarcely less deplorable or pitiable —(Hear and laughter).—The • poor culprit, driven to his de. fence, called witnesses to character—so did the Noble Lord, but none of them answered—(Hear.) His next step still kept up the parallel t for in• the extremity of his case he had proceeded to read a long paper, not having any Counsel to assist (as was most unhappily too often the situation of the Noble Lord), in which he endeavoured to sliew, in the teeth of all the evidence, not only that he was not guilty, but that he was the most ill-used than that had ever appeared at the bar—(Coatieued laughter). As for ec moiny, the Noble Lord asserted in his paper that it bad been. the object of his life; that he had lived under varieus masters in different places, giving universal satisfac tion, and evincing an unceasing anxiety to save to tee uttermost farthing. Next he set forth the expenses he had spared his employers, and those that he had inteuded to have spared them, if he had been allowed to continue is, service; and it could not be denied that the Noble Lord heti 'never hewn any great anxiety to quit a good place in which he was once firmly seated.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Tim prisoner at the Old Bailey usually followed his assertions with a statement of facts, most .probably false; and ihe Noble Lord had entered into a detail most certainly - incomprehensible, concluding with the large promises of future good behaviour, customary with persons in the deplorable situation of laving put upon their (Hear, hear.)—Proceeding m ore seriously to the sub. Ject of debate, he begged to state that at the peace of Amiens, contrary to the assertions of some Hottotirahla Gentlemen) Sir E. Nepean had received only re3.e)o a year, with perfect satisfaction; and bad he wished to augment it, he must have removed the then net Lord of the Admiralty, Earl St. Vincent, who would never have given his consent, though the Noble Lfocl now holding that high station felt no Auer' difficulty. Soou afterwards the Board of Naval liquify was appointed, and it was followed by the con nissioii of Revision, instituted for the express purpose of undoing what their predecessors had done: that conmessi.:a was us fact a mere party manceuvre to def ect ACM• icaorurna:dwwhehnitomzorrdsegoutldtchlUeln; drair Viear a i ti ke w ar isatd e) Out. • . .