Star. — London, England, 1809-05-09 00:00:00

netted with situations beheld to be an improper thing in i tse lf; and,ihough no . abuse had arisen from it, as far as the a dministration of justice was concerned, yet it was a practice which had better be discontinued. Unt threigli the labours of other Committees had been so mu ch neglected, he hoped the labours of the pre sent Committee would be more :uccessful. He hoped that all would concur in the application of some -re medy to the abuse, whether they adopted that which he was aliout to propose or not. One thing was clear, t h a t wherever a; abuse was pointed out, a remedy es zht, if possible, to be applied. He should therefore hardly have thought that there could be any objection to the resolutions which he was about to submit to the House so obviously proper upon the bare state ment of them, and though aot exactly borne out by t i e : very words of the Report, yet in every respect so co nformable to its object and spirit, had he not heard that it had been said out of doors (he begged pardon f o : the irregularity of the allusion) that these sinecure places and pensions were so intimately connected with tae prerogatives and rights of the Crown, as to form the p illafium of the British Constitution. But who ever looked at the increase of the burthens of the peo ple from the year I7B6—whoever looked at the aug matation of the taxes—at the immense power which t L Crown had acquired by the increase of the army ;e el navy—whoever looked at the situation of Europe, asd ~pas aware of the impossibility of procuring a Face Nvhich would admit of any material diminution the war establishment—whoever knew all this scarcely maintain that the influence of the ( ; own was on the decline. When a Report was pre she ed on this subject in the year 1791, the publicex paiditure was only fifteen millions nine hundred and sa evaiine thousand pounds. In the last year the ex peniiture was seventy-seven millions eight hundred and odd thousand pounds ! Could any one look at this and deny that the influence of the Crown had greatly increased ? Though these sinecures were abo lished, thine would still remain to the Crown the ap pointment to all the numerous situations to which the circumstances of the country and of the world had necessarily given rise.—The Crown would still have the appointments to the Army and Navy, so prodi giously augmented, owing to the state of the times. It would still have the appointments connected with the collection of the Revenue, and many others which were unknown in former times. Surely then it could not be seriously contended that the appointment to these Sinecures was at all esential to the stability or • the dignity of the regal power. That great States man, Mr. Burke, had said that the influence which the Crown derived from these sinecure Places and Pensions was a corrupt influence, destructive to the re; ;st venerable part of our Constitution, and degrad ise to the dignity of the Crown itself. It was from ceasiderations such as these that he thought it his duty to call the attention of the House, to this Report. —The Honourable and Learned Gentleman next ad verted to the Report of the Committee on the Civil List in the year 1802, it appeared from that Report that in the year 1787, the Pension List did not exceed tin sem of £9,185 per annum, and at the present time that he was then addressing them, the Pension List amounted to the sum annually of £.51,689, and the House would bear in remembrance, that Mr. Burke's original plan went to reduce the Pension List, in clieling every thing, to the sum of 1.60,000 annually; laic in the estimate he had just made, the sum of £51,680 was exclusive of contingent pension, and va rious other charges. The next head to which be should call the attention of the Hottse was, that of the Pensions arising out of the four and a half per cent. duties owith respect to the pensions arising out of those duties, it was not his intention to submit any specific Resolution to the House—but at the same time, if his calling the attention of his Majesty's Ministers to tieit Fart of the subject, should be productive of no measure taken by them in applying a remedy in that case, he should then feel it his duty to submit to the House at some future period,the propriety of sending up to the Throne an humble and dutiful Address upon this subject, considering it to be the most res pectful mode of proceeding, where the proceeding was rf a nature that related to any interference with the hoyal Prerogative. He would here recall to the I lo::se's recollection, the rise of those duties it would he recollected that in the first instance, these du . tes upon the four and a half per cents. were granted by an Act of the Assembly of the Island of Barba dses in the year 1663, but at that time those duties wf re iipproptiated to Colonial purposes, and the in t:anal benefit of the Island itself. After the Revo . let4m the application of those duties was extended, ' appropriateil by Parliament in the reign of Queen Anne to the service of this country. On referring to the 144 h volume of the Journals, it would be found that a petition had been presented to that House from the Colonies in Barbadoes, stating the original ground of those duties, praying their due app:opriation, and for relief, against the pressure oc ca,inned by their recent appropriation. In conse quence of that petition, it would appear from that volume of the Journals that that House sent up an humble Address to her Majesty, that those duties :right he placed, as nearly as might be, upon their ooginal grounds, and that they should be omitted in the Civil List ; and accordingly they were omitted ; -, ..•.:111;-re he had to observe, that the salaries of the 'ehsers and other officers in the Government of ues '‘'.a;t- India Islands were then paid out of those duties, as appeared from the accounts laid upon the - . - ‘ ll )!ehelween the years 1701 and 1710, and not the s : e s i!es wily, but the expellees resulting from keeping t' It' respective fortifications, &c. in repair—whereas • ('r.'s-tit all those estimates were included in the A:rny Eatraordinariea for each year. The House h-at auotlur claim upon those four end a halt per cent. ti;zte. Originally the tyrant in 176.5 to the hue Duke 01 elloacester, was paid out of the four and a half per cent. dtltisn, but Parliament afterwards transferred this groat, amonntine; to .'00(.4) a-year, and it was paid d , •. Mg the remainder of his life, for a number f year nfl out of those duties, but out of the Con e.lidaeso rand, wh;ch saving to the four and a half er cent. duties, gave Parliament a proportionable claim upon those c * by diminishing in that pro p, THOU the chari! . e, ‘1!)on them. In pressing upon the attention of the Legislature the necessity of diminishing the additional charges upon those Deties arising out of the quantity of Pen seals paid by them, he did not wish to interfere with th, King's Prerogative ; nor did he think that addres ting the Throne as to the propriety of rescinding such Pinaions, went at all improperly to interfere with the The next head •to which' he should call direr atten•' tion would be that of the Pensions paid out of the Treasury Fee Funds. Those were in general appro.' printed to recompence those who retired from the du ties of any office on being superanuated. That House had never been backward in remunerating public ser vices ; and where age prevented a continuance of them from any individual, that individual would -never want the generous support of that House. At the same time, he was fully aware of the inconveni encies that mast necessarily result from taking the power of granting Pensions to superannuated person; out of the hands in which it was at present, but cer tainly there was something reprehensible in the man ner in which that power was now vested, for at pre- I sent they might superannuate whom they pleased, and grant Pensions at their own pleasure. This was a power that ought to be in some degree qualified ; but it was not his wish, nor his intention, to transfer the scrutiny altogether to that House, as that might be not only inconvenient, but perhaps unavailable.— Under this head, too, might be included the Pensions and Allowances voted in the ordinary Estimates of the Navy. The next Lead he would bring under their consi deration was that arising out of the old funds of the Navy, the pensions paid out of the old stores. With respect to this order of Pensions it was his intention, in one of the Resolutions he should have the honour at a future period of proposing, should the House adopt his present motion and go into Committee on the Report, to suggest the propriety of a humble Ad dress to his Majesty against the principle of granting Pensions out of the Old Stores. The next head he would advert to was that of Al. lowances in the nature of Pensions, which though under the head of Allowances did not differ from Pensions. The House would remember that it .was Mr. Burke's object to restrict Allowances in the na ture of Pensions within the limits of 95,000 L Of those Allowances at the present day one class amounted to 42,000 and odd pounds, and the other to 56,0001. — making a total amount nearly to 99,0001. So that in this one instance Mr. Burke's plan of economical Re form was exceeded by a sum of 40001. The next point to which he should call their atten tion was that of the sinecures, under which he should also include the emoluments of those offices and places held by persons who discharged the respective duties thereof by deputy. They would find the gross esti mate tinder this head to amount to not less a sum than 272,3551. including 22 offices at 301. per annum each, and exclusive of several colonial sinecures. In this were comprehended all those offices appertaining to Coui is of Justice ; but here he wished to observe, that it was not his intention to introduce any resolu lution affecting places of that nature. He thought them, however, well worthy the attention of his Ma jesty's Ministers, and here read to the House a pas sgge from the Report of a Committee at the close of dNorth's administration, in which while the right of property in any freehold held under a grant from the Crown, was admitted as absolute, a distinction was taken between such property, and that existing in the tenure of an office held under a Royal Grant, which in itself implied the condition of its duties being effectively discharged by, the persoalk holding the same ; whence it was inferred that the turning of any office into a sinecure was by the Act a forfeiture of the office. If such suggestions were thought wise and applicable at that time, when the national expen diture did not exceed 16 millions, how much more so were they at the present day, when they were in creased from 16 millions to 77 millions ? Those were the principal heads, including pensions, places, sine cures, and compensations, as far as related to Eng land, of wh st might be enumerated under the general head of defraying the charges of pensions in that part of the United Kingdom. He should now call the attention of the House to the general head of items included in the Pensions in Scotland, it would not be expected to be very great, it however amounted at present to 39,6001. an error• mous increase, when it was considered that at•the accession of his present Majesty it appeared from the Report of the Committee upon this, subject, that the Pension List at that time in Scotland did not exceed the sum of 59251. so that in• the course of forty-nine years the Pension List in that country had increased 33,6751. The head including the charges for Sine cures and Offices, the duties of which were done by deputies, might be estimated in Scotland at 29,3001. the original limits of those charges under the act were restricted within 10,0001. He intended therefore to propose in his subsequent Resolutions, that those charges be reduced, and that an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, praying that they may not be permitted to increase beyond a certain limit, and that the surplus be applied to his Majesty's benefit. Having now dismissed the Pension charges for Eng land aneScotland, he would say one word on the same item of expenditure for Ireland.—lreland would be found to be a much more fruitful soil for Pensions than Scotland. The .110,000 granted by the act was considerably exceeded. Beside, the King had for smaller pensions a fund out of the Irish Establishment, amounting to £l2OO per annum. The annual charges, including pensions and compensations (which in that country were considerable) amounted to no less a sun* than er_93,475. The sinecures and the allowances in the nature of pensions to those superannuated, had been much increased in Ireland on account of a false interpretation having been put upon the act of Parlia ment ; to such an extent was this carried, that per sons who had served for any given time thought them selets privileged to retire, though then perhaps in the prime of life, in their 45th or 46th years, when they had become fully acquainted with the nature of their office, and were at that very time better able to dis charge the duties of it, than they had been at any former period, thus superannuating themselves after they had, as it were, served a sort of en apprenticeship to the duties of the office. Another circumstance of which he had to complain, with respect to the indiscriminate allowance of com pensations was, that they were given not only to those who retired from places and offices held by patent, but to those also who retired from places they had held merely during pleasure—this was not in unison with the true and original principle of such grants, for they were intended to prevent injustice ; but what in justice, .he would ask, was suffered by the man who holding a place at pleasure was removed at pleasure? He thought it wrong, therefore, so to misapply the public - mbney, by giving it to those who had no claims whiterer upon public justice. Hence he thought that. the best possible remedy against all such misapplica tions, would be-the publicity of the grants themselves; if they were all publicly given, if no compensation could be given without every circumstance of the grant, nature, and object of, it beinlg laid upon the table of that House, th e y wou ld not have to complain of so many improper grants, and indeed in general, the best remedy against the evil they so often heard corn , plained of in that House under the term job:, would ' be publicity in every thing relating to the disposal of the public money. He had now mentioned the evils, and he should state the means by which he proposed to come at the remedies. He had in his hand a series of Resolutions, which he would submit to the Com mittee, in case the House agreed in appointing it : Here the Hon. Gentleman read those Resolutions, which stated in substance, the urgent necessity at such a period of the strictest economy in the disposal of the public money. That it was not so much the object to abolish certain offices, as that the amount of those charges should not exceed the just estimate of the ser ; vices rendered thereby to the public. That it was de sirable that the emoluments of offices appertaining to Courts of Law should not be permitted to fluctuate or to go beyond their estimate at their first institution. That Mr. Burke's Bill had wisely stipulated against the unneeessery creation of places and offices, and that it would be expedient to follow up that stipulation by providing for the annual publicity of all such places. i The Learned and Honourable Gentleman then con eluded with moving, That a Committee be appointed to take into further consideration the Third Report of the Committee of Finance on this day se'nnight.* • The following is an Abstract of the Pensions, &c. from the Papers on the Table, as referred to in Mr. Martin's statement : ENGLAND.—PENsroms. Royal Family, and paid by Act of Parliament out of the Consolidated Fund House of Orange, by same Authority • Royal Family, out of Civil List, by Letters of Privy Seal and Sign Manual Ditto, out of Consolidated Fund, by Act of Par • liament se 133,000 0 0 _ 16,000 0 0 162,000 0 0 72,060 0 0 383,000 0 0 Floating Pensions for the Princesses, to com mence on the demise of his Majesty, 30,0001. Other Pensions, paid out of the Consolidated Fund, by Act of Parliament (only 4000:. of which is contingent) - - Ditto, on Civil List, under the Regulations of the Act 22 Geo. 111. - . 75,990 14 10 89,067 13 4 165,058 8 2 Floating Pensions which will become a Charge on the Civil List, 8471 E _ ARMY, &C. To Officers' Widows 34,926 6 2 NAVY. To Snperanuated Officers, including those who have received Wounds in the Service, and the Widows and Children of other Officers, pay able on the Ordinary Estimate of the Navy To Muter Attendants, &c. Artificers, and ler -1 sons employed is the Yards - ORDNANCE. To Officers' Widows, &c. - - 62,884 0 0 6,306 0 0 • 45,572 17 1 149,689 Total Unobjectionable Pensions, 697,7471. les. 3d. FISSIONS ORPICTIONABLZ OR quarrtosAaLs. Pensions called Allowances from the War-Office 5,640 Ditto by Paymaster-General, Royal Bounty • 5,163 • (Officers' Widows nut here included). Isle of Man Gibraltar 692 Out of Treasury Fee Pund, Civil List, and Law Charges, deducting for Persons who have died 4,990 Allowances out of Fee Fund and Messengers • Fund, Foreign Office Additioas to the Establishment of the Foreign Office - . - - Paid out of Civil List or other Fund (6COI. of which is contingent) Allowances out of Home Department - Pensions.and Allowances out of the Ordinary Estimates of the Navy to Retired Civil Offi cers and Wives of Living Naval Officers (ex clusive of Master Shipwrights and other Work ing Officers employed in the Yards, and not including those lately dead). These payments are lately increased Floating Pensions in the Ordinary of the Nary, 11821. 10s. of which is now in a course of pay ment - . Out of Old Stores (not including Widows and Children of Officers, or Pensions for Wounds) floating Pensions out of Old Stores, 58511. 10s. Note.—The Payments out of Old Stores, by Sign Manual, amount, exclusive of Bills as signed on the Treasurer of the Navy (which are £43,432. 18s. 4d.) to £9,083. 4s. 111 of Which £7059. 10s. 6d. was in payment of Pensions. Payments in aid of Salary to the First Lord of the Admiralty Pensions or Allowances at the Tax Office Compensations, Pensions, and Allowances in The O ffi ces of Master of the Horse and Lord Steward Pensions out of Transport Office - Pensions out of Excise and Salt Duties Allowances to Suppressed Commissaries I.ottery Office Pensions Pay Office ditto Post Office - - Stamp Office Annual Payments from Civil List to Rangers, &c. Allowances out of Ordnance, (deducting for Of ficers' Widows, &c.) Pensions added since the Account of those made up to the sth January, 1807 Allowances under the name of Compensations in the Departments of Lord Chamberlain and Master of the Robes In the Customs In the Pell Office, for Places abolished Deputy Surveyor of Woods and Forests, in lieu of an Office in Chatham Barracks Small Pensions to different Churches and Pa rishes formerly paid by the Paymaster of Pen sions, transferred to Exchequer by Act of Parlitunent To Foreign Ministers • • (22 G. 3. sect. 18. Act not to extend to those Pensions, provided the Persons receiving them do not enjoy some place of profit from the Crown to the amount of the Pension usually allowed in those cases ) Contingents ditto - £3,900. Paymasters' Poundage out of Army Pensions (Qu. Whether this Office be not executed by Deputy and if so, might not a small sa lary be allowed in lieu of poundage ?) 2,000 0 0 1,900 0 0 7,414 19 1 1,100 0 0 1,696 0 0 1,66 14 3 () 0 I,leo 0 0 591 0 0 3,080 0 0 10,1C8 3 3 15,e32 13 0 3,766 0 0 2,885 10 0 807 0 0 280 0 0 500 0 0 1,758 5 4 51,689 0 0 Note-Marshal of the Admiralty and other offices omitted, and no Returns from the Courts of Vice Admiralty abroad, twelve in a umber. 1,746 6 S 150,437 16 7 OFFICES SINECURE, 01 EXICUTED IT DIPUTT. Twenty-two out of 36 Sinecure Offices, or exe cuted by deputy (of the emoluments of the remaining 14 no return has been made) 18,791 0 0 Alienation Office and Hsnaper, also sinecures 3,407 11 6 Apothecary General ( sinecure ) of 3 years 12,158 6 4 Thirty-six other offices, executed by deputy, isc the Exchequer, Customs, Erse, Navy, Pay Office, and Privy Seal Ditto in courts of Justice _ _ 80,814 0 0 97,307 0 0 560 9,495 0 150 0 1,625 0 0 2,17 k 0 0 12,316 16 0 182 10 0 6,828 10 0 Offices of the sane nature Lehi for joint tires . (Naval Office. of I.unaica not incltah-d) but tnay be suLjuct to some :malt deduc.i•irs 29,819 0 0 1'.4 . 4.,335 16 10 No Return of the Offices In the West India Islands taken horn the enemy Four and a Half per Cent. Duty Paid by the Husband of the Duty in,sst 0 0 '20,949 0 6 31,280 0 6 Contingent and floating ditto ,t:5,; "0. Pensions miscellaneous Sinecure Offices held by deputy, or for joint hives - - 242,355 16 10 Total objectionable or questionable for England 424,073 13 11 SCOTLAND. Pensions paid out of Civil F.stablishinent - Payments for Miscellaneous Services whiehmay be doubtful Sinecure Offices - Ditto executed by deputy 150,437 16 7 39,704 16 6 8,575 0 0 1,230 0 0 28,090 0 0 77,609 16 6 IRELAND. Pensions - .• - - - - Compensations for Union, &c. - linecure Offices held for two or more lives, or grAtted in reversion - - 120,946 12 S 97,663 13 4 102,104 0 0 Trial Ireland F-neard • Scolaz.d 320,614 6 0 424,073 IS 11 77,609 16 6 Total objectionable or'questionable 822,`-'97 16 .5 Unobjectionable - 697,747 12 3 Grand Total X. 1,520,045 8 - Mr. THORNTON said he had risen to second th... Motion, so mtich did he approve of it. He thought, however, the Honourable Gentleman inaccurate in his first broad and general statement, it amountii , -; but to £1,400,000 .And not, as stated to £1,500,0001; And out of this there was a sum of £34,000 to Offi ; cer's Widows, and one of £45,000 to the Ordnance Service, and a third of £57,000 towards the Navy Estimates ; there was also £B,OOO to the First Lord of the Admiralty, 13 or £14,000 for defraying the expences of Government Dispatches, besides other charges that amounted to about £200,000. Mr. HENRY MARTIN, in explanation, said, that he meant not to affect the sums appropriated to Officers' Widows, or any such charge. He had dis tinctly stated; in setting out, that he wished those to be laid aside in the consideration to which he was about to call the attention of the House. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the statement of the Honourable Gentle man had been perfectly fair and candid in all its parts, and that he (Mr. Martin) was entitled to his personal thanks for the manner in which he had brought this subject forward: It had been thought that it might have come better from a person filling his situation, but, from the extraordinary demand of his other duties upon his time and attention, he had not leisure since the commencement of the Session to pay it the atten tion it required. It had, however, fallen into very competent hands. He admitted that the Report in question had suggested a variety of regulations, of which he approved. He approved of the public being fully and accurately informed upon every point of public expenditure. It had been fie system that had been acted upon bY the late Mr. Pitt, and there could be no doubt but that it was the best to guard them against their being deceived or abused with mis tatements. He threw it out for the consideration of the Honourable Gentleman, whether the Resolutions could be carried into any effect in the course of the present Sessions. He apprehended they could not: As to the propriety of addressing the Crown in some instances, ss proposed, he thought that would be matter for subsequent consideration. At present he should support the motion for appointing a Com mittee. Lord HENRY PETTY said, when it was consi dered that the whole sphere of the topics compre hended under the Report in question did not extend to one .52e1 part of the expenditure of this country, including even the allowances to the Royal Family, and that on the expiry of the pi ccent system, it would not exceed one 80th part of the expenditure, the House could not be entitled to expect that any great saving could result from the curtailment of this branch of the public expenditure. It was not there fore, on this expectation; but, on the principle that however small the advantage to be derived tenor the investigation of abuses, the constant attention of the House should be directed to the suppresion of such evils, that he agreed to the motion cf his Hon. and Learned Friend. After deducting the annuities to the Royal F tinily, the amount of Pensions, Sinecures, &c. 'amounted to 950,0001. This sum was received not for services performing, but performed. If sinecures were not the proper mode of rewarding all services performed, still it was not said that they should be excluded altogether.. So, the question should be, to what extent this was the fittest mode, and whether the amount of sums so payable did or did not exceed the value of the service performed. The object of his Honourable Friend was not that these Offices should be done away, but that the amount of them • 1, should not be greater than the service rendered to the public. His next object was that the emoluments of Offices in Courts of Law should not be allowed to fluctuate, and to exceed what was to have been ex ' petted when they were originally instituted. Thirdly, to prevent the possible creation of places, as stipulated for by Mr. Burke's Bill, by providing for the annual publicity of all such places. No where could this privilege be so safely lodged as in the Crown ; but being so confided, it was proper that the appointments should be laid before' the House, and so - become ac cessible to Parliament and to the public at 'all times. These were the only regulations which could be adop ted to keep down this expenditure, and while the House was not guilty of any dereliction of duty, no body could be better qualified for such a task. Hav ing said so much, he should' reserve, till another op portunity, the minor details. The Right Hon. Gen tleman opposite (Mr. Perceval) while he agreed in many things with the Hon. and Learned Mover, had suggested that it would not be necessary for his Hon. rnen4 to press thi Resolutions he had read during 'the present Pession. He, however, was of opinion, I that if the House approved of the resolutions, it woull be better that they should be put in the form of Bills, and it so, that they should, if possible, pass during the present Session. He was satisfied the House could not discharge its duty better than by proceeding to carry the principle of; these Resolutions into execution. The Resolutions concurrence x liuusc.— ;of.anhdisitHgcanvoeuhraimblesatFisrif:cnidionhatcol see tlt manner in which they ba d been suet by si his ion [or ibt ces inl Ile tel `~ f• •