Star. — London, England, 1807-08-08 00:00:00

Mr. secretary CANNING Ontetttled that he had never fail &Rion roinifei Were made of peeunlaty affillance to three powers. He had only mentioned Sweden and Profile on the fubjed of the Rotten loan, he had fignified his approbation of ibe refufal made by the late Government. He infitled, that what he had laid had been extorted from him, by what had fallen from the eppofite fide of the Houle. The Honourable Gentleman who (poke left, and the late Minifters had accufed the prefent Minitters of being too lavith of the public money advanced to Pro(lia, and alto too late in the time of affording affiflance to that power ; and when ha retorted on them, and Rated in their own defence that, if they were too late, it was-owing to their predeceffors, they were called upon to come forward with a dißind charge again(' the late Minifters. He did not, how. ever, ilink he was hound to do Co, and he would certainly defend himfelf in that way, which he thought he was entitled to do. Mr. WHITBREAD, in explanatidn, faid, the Tionotirable Secretary had directly charged his Noble Relative with a crime, in making a fpecific promife, • decd then breaking it ; and it was the fiat time he ever heard it urged, in defence of a perfon accufed, that another perfon had done. In before him. Mr, WINDHAM faid,. the Right Honourable Secretary had afrerted a right which nobody was dii. poled to deny him ; that when he was attacked, he would defend himfelf; but when he brought an ac cufation againit men of a crime—not of being too late," or 6t too lavifh of the public money," but of promifes made to foreign powers, which had been broken, he ought to bring forward documents to fripport fuck a charge, andFlhould be ready to make it good. Lord CASTLEREAGH raid, that on a former night the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Whitbread) had, at the conclulion of his fpeech, accufed the pre fent Minitters with having been dilatory, in having afforded adißance to the Pruflians; and he anfwer4, that if the imprellion was fo thong as bad been de fcribed, they had been precluded from affording at'- fillance fooner, from the fituation in which their pre - deceffors had left them, as to the means. He had then Rated, that there was one power had expreffed expedations of being Allied, efpecially with cavalry, but never fail that any exprefs fpecific engagement had been made by the late Minitters ; but that they were blameable in having encouraged expeCiations on that head; all which was abfolutely extorted from him by the charges made againit him and his col.' leagues, as to their condu& As to bringing forward a ditlind charge againit the late Minitters, he had never heard of an appeal that was more unreafinable. Lord H. PETTY faid, there was now a new d.l tinelion in the debate ; on a former night they had made promifes which had been broken ; now they I heard there never was any formal enzagement ; and when the prefent Miniftert were preffed to make good that fplendil inheritance of promifes they derived i ffom their predeceffots, they on this day return to I general promifes t thus they danced from the one charge to the other, while they were in puffellion of the documents which would prove who was rightand svho wrong in what had been faid on this fubjea, ; hut they refuted to bring them for ward. The Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Gentleman had both de -1 (-fared that what they faid had been extorted from k them by himfelf arid his late colleagues ; but there' was a great deal of difference in she fituation of the' two parties. When charges were made by thole on hi. fide of the Houle, the Roble Lord and the Right honourable Secretary had the means of refuting i them, if not true ; but when charges were made by Minitters, they had the advantage of being in poll'ef lion of the documents which only cruild prove the truth of their affertions, and at the fame rime the power of withholding them. He joined, therefore, in the tall of his Hon. Friend ( Mr. Whitbread) either that this charge might not be heard of again, or that it fhould ba accompanied by a document, and form a ditlinft charge. The CHANCELLOR of the •EXCHETJER Paid, that it had been admitted that expeftations had been held. out to Sweden, of cavalry being furnifhed ou certain contingencies ; that . Sweden was of opi nion the contingency had taken place, and the late Minißers thought it had not ; here there was a dif ference of opinion on one point, and he law no rev fon why, the prefent Minikes fhould bring forward a fpecific charge againit the late Government for a difference of opinion whether a contingency had taken place or not. Lord FOLKESTONE tnongot me prefent Mini kes ought to bring forward a fpecific charge againit the late Government, for the crimes of which they bad .accufed thtm. Dr. LAWRENCE was of the fame opinion. The title of the Bill was then read and agreed to. • Jared 41a.m$ SILL. On the Order of the Day that the isith Arms Bill be now read a third time, . . Iord.jvIILTON rote and faid he could not agree, j without any inquiry into the Hate of Ireland, to give M agent to the patting of fuch an arkipary Alf as this. At the time of the Union, the Ira were pro anifed a full and fair participatiop of the , rights of Enganien ; and at that moment, after a lapfe of rem years, they were called upon to pafs an Ad, 11}rA4ich nothing could he more:arbitrary and up-.j pt4ve, and which could not be borne with in Eng lsß,Lbps in cafe, of the moll imperious neceffity, and, after thefulleft inquiry. This could not fail to in im lealoolies and fufpicions among the Irifli, and 11 110 , hc,feared, kpreidative of the molt injurious cualcquences. It.' hadlikin attempted to jollity this Aft on the . principle which. had prevailed, in that of dictunting the Hightsoders,, but there was a very Sipe diffetenCe bovicen them. 'Alt for difar ttlg the Oisblant!crs was patted g The a period when In no one whatever could fur a moment doubt the abfo. , lute necefiff for it., It was immediately after a re bellign,4, which thole men had taken up arms in the caufe pf a Noes, who was a depleted enemy. to the Proteßant religion, and whole anCeflor had been et-,1 Pelle4 from this country, for his attempt to overlie*: the. Costeirosino. Many of the Nubility of Scotia* had been eXecaatest for tiseirhapport Of that rebellion ; nit die An was only to siffes, a partieular part of Sr4land, where feudal law prevailed to a great extent, end gave the I..9rds a fupreme fway and con.. trout over their tenants ; end Scotland being fsiststk tignous to this country, the tebellion was the more dangcrons. and more likely to run over it. ThcHnis, Gelding= who brought onward this Sal celled ea the Honfe to pats it into a lam, without any doco mentwo prove the neretlity of it; and without any means of .conciliation baiting been adopted towards Ireland: He hoped, is a future lemon, to r:e fome meafure adopted in favour of the Irifh, to fee a Mo dification of tithes ferioufly let about, and maturely and fully confidered ; and above all, to fee the Ca tholic fubjeas of Ireland reltored to their rights ; but Paid the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, 44 the Church is in danger." In what way this could be made out, he was at a lois to forefee. Would Catholic emancipation give the Catholic Clergy any greater force of arguments, as to the foperiority of their religion ? For his part he Taw no danger, unlefs it was caufed by the Proteflants deferting the Church. He protefted againft thofe reftraining laws —they had for a great length of time been tried agitinft Wales, and had always been found fruitier, and nugatory. He thought the attempt to difarm New England, as we had done, would aot fo loon h've been forgotten, but would have operated to re ftrain Minifters from thus attempting to difarm Ire land. a hoped, inftead of this, that the Irith would be reftor ed to*eir rights, and henceforward be al lowed the rights of Englifbmen. He obje&ed warmly to the feelings of the lrifir people being, at that mo ment, infulted by the appointment of Magiftrates, who had (hewn themfelves to be party men, and who were henceforward to be inverted with the molt arbi trary and oppreftive powers. For thofe reafons, he fhould certainly vote againtt the Bill being read a third time. Mr. LUSHINGTON laid, every one who read this Bill mutt fee chat it was againit every principle of that Conftitution for which our ancefturs bled.— He believed the late period of the fetfion prevented Minifters from laying information before the Hr.ufe„ He had had recruit fe to the bell information he could, and was lorry to confefs, that the opirri , m of his mind was, that a necellity for it did exift. He fhould have been glad that the elaufe empowering Magittrares to enter houfes in the night had hten modified and gnat ' dtcl with fome reltriNions ; but being convinced of the neceffity, he moll v•.rte for the 11111. He th ,, ught, however, that a year would have been I ng enough for its duration. Mr. P. MOORE thoneht, that in a bee conntty like England, fuch an Ad as this Arnold never he paled but from extreme nectflity. It had beer laid, that this Al wasitttlitted by neceTry ; but there was no evidence in proof of it, except the < pinion k f an Hon. Gentleman, which, however refeedable that Gentleman might be, he could not frig r to Tway him, nor was he able to biing his corOcience to adopt to arbitrary a meafu.e on loch autli , oi;y. Such a cor. coding All as this mull prove highly it jurious in its confequences. by iititatiug and lalcerating the feel ings of the frith pe pie; anti it °tele - was a necefficy for it the fad was, it did riot go far enough. Fur thefe reafons, lie w odd m,ve an amendment, " that it be read a rhi•el time this day three months." Mr. 'WHITBREAD laid he would trouble the Houle only with a very few words. As this Bill was conneded with another, which had already paffed into a law ; and for which he had voted, though with great teluetance, and on Vie authority of an Honour. able Gentleman who was liippored to know very well the prefent flare of lieland, lie %riffled grimly to allign his reafons for objecting to i tae prefent bill. He owned hrehad the fame reafnn to deter to that authority on the prefent occafion, but the difference between thefe two bills was, that the other bill only operated againft certain parts of Ireland, viz. the proclaimed coun ties, whilfl they went the length of laying they had, in the whole of Ireland, a people fo thoroughly and decidedly ditafteded to the ivernment that they could not trult them with arms, Which was proclaiming to the enemy that if he landed troops there, he would be fore of numerous par tiz ins. Tithe Houfe thought that by this bill they woold difarm the people, he feared they would find themfaVes miftaken, welsh they gave a power to the Migillrates to aft oppref lively, and to create new enemies every day. In all countries were they had tried to difasm the people in this way, experience had proved their incapacity to do it. The chore, giving power to the Magistrates to fearch houfes for arms in the night, was unnecef fary, °for the arms were ufed in the night, and the fearch ought to be by day-1-but in no cafe ought it to be allowed, except in the pretence of a Magiftrate. It became therefore, his duty, however reludantly he might differ in opinion with the late Ministry, to vote againft the Bill. If he could believe it woad produce any fecority to the Country and the Govern ment, he would support it, but as he could not do fo, he mufl vote againft it. Sir A. PIGOT Paid he would beg leave, as fhortly as pofliSle, to give his reafons for dilfenting from this Bill. It was art Ad of the molt arbitrary and opprellive nature, brought forward without any in quiry into the flare of Ireland, without any evidence laid before the Houk as to the neeetlity of it ; an:: it was altogether fa uncontlitutional an aft, that nothing but extreme and moll imperious neceffity could poi libly jutlify it. It did not depend on the refponfibi lity of the Lord Lieutenant and Council, nor on the authority of the eltablithed Courts of Law; but two Magiltrates could execute all the arbitrary provifions of this terrible law. He did not conceive himfelf authorized to give his affent to Inch a Bill u this, on the authority of any . Hon. Gentleman, however refpeßable he might be, both for charader and talents, and notwithfianding all that bad been Paid on the fubjed, be could dot.fee any neceffity whatever for it. Lord liardwicke had refided upwards of four years in Ireland, a moll able, dignified, and popular reprefentative of his Sovereign, during which time he had never found it neceffary to refort to thofe extraordinary provi fi ons. If fo, what was there in the.prefent late of Ireland to give rrecation to this Bill ? Since my Lordliardwicke, the Duke of Bed. , ford had been fame time as Lord. Lieutenant ; and there were tome partial difturbanees in different parts of the country. Applications had been made to his Grace to put in force the provifions of this Ad I but he. refuted. He proceeded againd the culprits in a legal way ; and the law was found fufficient to fob dpe the infarredion, and to punith the offenders.— Here the Houle had theevidence of two Lords Lieu. tenants, that in the cootie of fix or (even years, there was no neceffity for loch medicine. It mull be a neceffity made apparent to Parliament, and not allowed to go on the refped to any affertion of any individual, to put the whole people, f Ireland out of the law, and 'authorize thefe n retunal domiciliary viits.. • Ms avetk to the Bill as rem. lie Dever . . could reconcile himfelf to a Bill which was to place the pebple, in every part of Ireland, in the power of any two rafts, prejudiced or intemperate Magiftrates, to break open their houfes at any hour of the night,' and, ender the pretence of fearching for arms, to alarm and intuit their families, and without the flighteft evidence of any neceffity : and at leall if the Houfe Mould agree to pars the Bill, it ought to name the fhorteft poffible duration, not longer, at fartheß, than the commencement of the next feffion ; when the fohjet might again be confidered, and the law fuffered to expire, unlefs the executive Govern., ment of the country ihoold think it neceffary to be I revived. It was faid by the fupporters of this Bill, that it was to be continued for three years, in the firft inflance, becaufe the revival of the fulajeet in Parliament, year after year, would excite irritation. So that to avoid this fuppnfitious confequence, the people of Ireland were to be three years ezpofed to the arbitrary oppreflion of Magiftrates, and their un derlings, and to be deprived ef their arms for the defence of their habitations. There were times here tofore, when a Britifh Parliament would not tolerate fuch language ; and he thought it required force boldnefs for any Minifter to flare fuch a propofition. Yet how could the bill be continued three years, on. lefs it was the united fenfe of Parliament to refitt any motion for its repeal, w/rich it was competent for any Member to propofe in the next Selfion ? Would! any Member fuppofe it poflible, that the affairs oft Ireland moll not come under the confederation of! Parliament every year. If bills like thefe were the boons to be granted to Ireland by this country, there were what they could find elfewhere ; and if Parha• ment did not fee the wildom of governing that court try by lenient and conciliatory meafures, and fulfill ing to the hopes of the people the effects they were taught to expeCt from a legiflative union with this country ; namely, the knitting together their tights and interefts with thole of their Br itifla fallow fubjees; if Parliament did not feel the neceffity of ftrengthen ing, at this awful crifis, the armies of the empire, by the valour of a noble, brave, intrepid, and loyal peo. pie. inttead.of keeping up a fy Rem of coercive and irritative mealures, he mull only lament their blind nefs. This obfervatiun reminded him of a declara. tion once made by one of the ableft flatefmen that ever prefided over the deftinies of their country-- he great Earl of Chatham, who laid it was his max im to cherifh merit wherever he found it, fr. e from all partiality and prejudice to countries. He had fouaht and found %brave people in the North, who had long been eliranged from all attachments to Bri :ilh Government, by alts of impolicy and oppreflion, which transferred their affection to a foreign foe, who had flattered them with hopes of redref.. He removed their oppreftion... He noticed their loyalty to this country. They flecked to the Britifh Ran dard, and conquered for England in every quarter of the world. It was a fimilar policy that would give the belt effects to the Union, by uniting with this country the affection of the heir people. But a con trary condo& would tend, ultimately perhaps, to lop off the right arm from the Britifh empire, at a mo ment when we wanted twice as many arms as we have to tired our fecurity in this awful cats. He concluded by befeeching the Houfe and his Majeßy's Government to depart from this fatal fyftem, which ricked no lefs thansthe ultimate lois of Ireland. Mr. DILLON Rated, that it fell within his own knowledge, that during the Adminiftration of the Duke of Bedford, forne hot headed Magilirates had proclaimed a diftriel contrary to law. They after wards applied to the Lord Lieutenant to fanflion their illegal proceeding ; he refufed to do fo, and the ultral operation of the law was Found to he fufficient for the prefervation of public tranquillity. To fuch men it was not his inclination to confide loch powers as were nor found neceifary in the Admioiltration of Lord Hardwicke, and Inch as the Duke of Bedford refilled to fanetion. It was the with of Lord Kilwar den, even in his dying moments, that the law lhould not be violated on his account. Minifters were well aware that by the Bill of Rights every Britith fubjeft had a right to bear arms, and if unneceffary infrac tions of the belt articles of ihe Conllitution were made as a matter of cootie almott, Minifters might expel that those portion of the people of that country would declare their lentiments in the mull open manner againit fiich proceedings ; they might expert not that a Revolution founded on Agrarian principles would be attempted, but that the higher dais of the people would be railed, and that they would petition againfl the Union. On the intended motion of Mr. Sheridan he fhould deliver his fentiments more fully, in the mean while, however, he thought it his duty to op pole the Bill now before the Houfe. Mr. PONSONBY thanked his Hon. and Learned Friend (Sir A. Pigott) fur his eloquent defence of the rights of the people of Ireland ; and, in order to prove what was the prefent Rate of that country, he allured the Honfe that he did not know of any part of the Ifland which could fairly be laid to be in a difturbed Rate. At the circuits in Tipperary and in Wexford, the Judge publicly noticed the circum- Rance, that not a fingle Bill was found for any thing conneeted with treafonous or feditious practices, and he thanked the inhabitants of thefe two counties for their peaceable demeanour. Mr. CRAIG was of a fimilar opinion, and depre cated the provifions of the Bill. The loyal fohjeCis of Ireland would be placed by it in the fame fituation as dining the rebellion, when their houfes were broken open, and arms carried away, which they could never again obtain. Nay, even Rotes were ranfacked, and though the officer (whole name he would not difclofe) gave receipts for the return of thofe arms when ap plied for, yet no redrefs was given. [l4ere, as for Come time previous, there was a cry for the Qtyllion from the Minillerial Benches.] Mr. SHERIDA.N then declared, that to him it was a matter of aftonifhment to hear the queßion called for by fomething like a general voice. He had no ticed the motion of his Hon. Friend, and the ability with which he had fopported it, and he had noticed molt attentively the el quent and uriaafwerable ergo meats of his Honourable and Learned Friend (Sir A. Pigott). and many other Honourable Gentlemen ; he certainly did think that fomething would have been faid in anfwer to them ; he certainly did think that fomething like an anfwer would have been attemp t ted; he certainly did thinkahat the Gentlemen oa the other fide would have condefcended to have faid fomething in favour of their own meafure, after it had been overwhelmed alinoft with filch a torrent of assusisoat. But deem kritiassd was at Own La , jured and intuited, it was that night ; he conceited the filence of Wnitters on this occafion to be an injuflice to the meafure itfelf, whatt it evinced a to tal difregard of the Gentlemen who fp6ke upon the fubjeet, and through them infulted and outraged the feelings of the people of Ireland. The Gentkmest who fpcdte upon the fubieet, pleaded the cattle of the injured Conttitution of Ireland. They plea• Jed that caufe in the molLmriderate and perfuafive minas, and yet the moft Mien filence prevailed throughout the whole body of his 1411jetly's Miniders ; they gave a blank inll •ad of argument. Even on the introduetionof theßill, when it was unavoidable to fay lomething in • • fupport of the mealure, the Attorney General did not pretend to fay that he knew any thing of the exillence of any fads, the exitience of which was necelfary to jtsftify the adoption of fuch a meafure ; no, but he had heard fomething by tumour finnewhere, about the ezillence of f.)me fuch citcumftances. The Chancel. for of the Exchequer was equally ignorant, hut he had alto heard fomething that he believed had a strong tendency to referable infurre6lion. with refpea to the Bill itfelf, when ire looked at it. compared it with that which had Wel,- palled the Houfe, he mull fay that if the former teemed odious in its form and inbliance, this was t 0,000 times mote fo, it was really moll abominable. But at the fAsne time, as if it were meant to make the meAfure h.,th odious and ridiculous, it was Co conameted As that it would plunder the people of their arms and put down the trade of a blackfmith. Nlthing like a blackfmith was to exift in Ireland lett he might pnfii bly form ftimething like a pike (a laugh). If ever there was an inflance in which the liberties of aloyal people Were taken from them, end they were thereby tempted to become difloyal, it was the prefent. Indeed from the general fpirit with which the Bill was framed, he th ,ught there was fomething (hll waiving, and he. &mid propefe to add a claufe by way of rider to this Bill', making it high treafon for any man to communi cate either of there Bills to Napoleon Bonaparte, Em peror of the French, left he fhibuldcouceive them to be _ . Ziireet invitations to him to ♦itit.that part of his Ma jelly's empire. He hadaiready noticed the filence of the - Gentlemen oppolite him ;but if they fhould now think proper to drop a word or two, when he confidcred . . the high political charader, the extraordinary vi: cue, and the vallly extenfive powers of argument of thole Gentlemen, lie fhould think himfelf highly honNured indeed, if they fhould deign to take the molt trifling notice of any:thing that fell from him. He now hap pened to recalled what was laid by a Right Hon. Gentleman, to whole opinions they all deferred (Mr. Grattan), that notuithttanding he voted for the pre fent mealure With all its defeds, rather than Idle it al. together, yet that Gentleman Paid, that he hoped to fecnre the revellittnary interell of the Conflitution to Ireland. _ But when we law that the Conflitution was fufpended from the year t 795, to the prefent pei iod, and that it was now likely to be continue-I fOr three years longer, the danger was that .we might lofe the intereft al - ogether; when we were mortgaged for loch a length of time, at lal a foreclofure might take place. But what had been done for the prottdion of Ireland ? an experienced military officer, the Secre tary of State for that country, has been fent up the Baltic.—[The Chancellor of the Exchequer laid, tcrofs the table, No, the Secretary to the Lnrd Lieu tenant.]—Mr. S. then raid, he felt himfelf highly ho• nonred indeed by that corredion of a fuppered error. If the Right Hon. Gentleman meant to fay that the Worthy, Baronet (Sir A. Wellefley) was too infigni- Scant, he would defend the Hon. Baronet againft the imputation of that Right Hon. Gentleman. The Baronet was Secretary to the Reprefentative of his Majelly, and a military man ; he was fact up the Baltic ; Ireland was drained of her troops ; of the means of defending herfelf &pion foreign or domett ic enemies, and Minifters now attempt to garrifon that unhappy Country, by means of two deceit +hie AEU of Parliament ! rhe Houk was convulfed with laughter during the whole of the Right Honourable Gentleman's fpeech The Houk Then divided, and the nnmbers were— For the Amendment 28—Againih i. flo—M4j - I. ir y 52. The Bill WAS thee read a third time without a divifi qt. Upon onr re.admiffion to the Gallery, the tine flion before the Houle was, on the P.:dß:lg of the Bid. We found that Lord H. Petty had argued at confi derable length againft the duration ~f the Bill.— Whiff} the H-rufe was adopting ftrong meafures to remove the effect, he thought it was incumbent on them to do fumething to remove the.cauk, that they fhould Phew the people of Ireland that their cafe was (till open to Parliament. He theref , re moved that the words in that claufe thould be altered to " the IR of Auguit iBoB, and until fir weeks after the • commencement of the enfuing feffion of Parliament." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEIZJER oppofed the Amendment. The duration propotid by the framers of the Bill did not preclude the repeal at any time that the necellity which called for it fhonld ceafe to cu 11. But he could not be reconciled to the Amendment, beeaufe the died of it would be , to bring the quellion refpeeting Ireland into difcuf fion more frequently than was confiltent with pro- , dence ; and probably by fuch difeuffions inflame the neceffity which urged the adoptioe of chi. Bill. The fame reafpns which warranted the period enalt.cd for the continuance of the Infurration Bill, f rved to warrant, in his opinion, an equal duration of this meafure. Mr SHERIDAN faw no reafon why the meafore before the Houfe, and the Infant&ion Aft, thould proceed pariplu, as the one propofed to lufpead the Cortilitution of all Ireland, while the other was only. to be called into attion upon the requilition of. the Magiftrates. With tegard to the objettion urge& by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, against she. Amendment of his Noble Friend, the ground of that objeCtion waprecilely that upon which he wool I be. content to ref the qualification of the sere i.e meaat to give. For, Co far from witting to prevent, hi- anxt ,us defi.e was, that the affairs of Ireland should be Ire. quently and fully difculred. • He deprecated the idea of biknking that qu eft inn. It was of too much imp at ,, ance to be overlooked ; and inafmuch as I re l an i was I effential to the eaiftence of the Empire, its co icerne were entitled to the first confederation of Parliament. The Right Honourable Gentleman contende , that I Ministers in calling for fuch extraordinary, ..nd he I would fay, urconititutional powers a s this trl cow ! ferred, were bound to Rate the nature and amount of the seceifity which could alone warraat ti a call. Bet upon this they pr ice' it dignified Alsace. 'fue