Star. — London, England, 1804-07-12 00:00:00

may deferve attention, and with that I (hall conclude. For the purpofe of fecuring the independence of the Houfe of Commons, the law provides, that Member► of this Houfe accepting certain places of profit un der Government, (hall vacate their feats, and be fent back to their conftituents, who may re-cleft or rejedt them. But if it be once admitted that any one man may hold the office while another does the duty, may it not happen, that by collufian between the parties, the ;titmice of the law may be defeated ? They may tacitly underftand one another on the fubjea ; the feat is not vacated, and two peyfons for the fame office may be retained in the fervice of Government, without its appearing that the profits are received by more than one of them. I now fubmit the whole cafe to the wifdom of the Houfe, who, I hope, will not think that I have troubled them on this occafion without fufficient rearm. Mr. FOSTER Paid, he rather felt awkward in being - ' to as tin ofscalyerf?si while he held no the charges would be. ,hat he bad tnifiated fame eir cumtlawces to the Houfe. It might be ad, that a Noble Lord at the head of the India Board (Lord Caftlereagh) had gray !riffled the Houfe when be reprefented that India was in a profperous flats. In that particular the Hoofs had therefore a right to look to that Noble Lord as a perfon who was refpon fible, not from his being a Member of that Houfe, but from his holding an official fituation. It was then no unconftitutionardoarine to fay, that an official Mem ber could be called to account. The Hoofs certainly ought to know who is at prefent Chancellor of the Exchequer for Ireland, or. in other words, it is necef fary to know who was the real Simon Pure ? That office, in the prefent Rate of affairs, feemed to be occupied, as his Right Hon. Friend near him (Mr. Windham) bad expreffed it, by a perfon with two heads. It was an incongruous monfler, like Ciaan in the Tate, by (hewing of which a fortune might be made. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Fofter) was not aaually Chancellor of the Exchequer when _ Since ' ..g applied ‘ - office. He never bad Paid Wad he held any office, he brought forward the lath Budget. _ 4 fuch Tha. mug fay that the language he had jell now was the cafe, even by his (Mr. F.'s) own avowal, he from the Honourable Gentleman was mat .( Mr. Sheridan) would with to know what reliance wneonflitutionaL He was fully warranted in con- was to be placed by the Houfe upon the accuracy of dulling hind - oleos be bad done, from his duty as a his flatements ? Member of Parliament, , without being in any official Mr.CANNING laid, that in point of fat his Right imam. He had made many gags -meats as to the Hon,. Friend near him (Mr. Fuller) had not made affairs of Ireland, for two years pan, though he had any motion without intormine the Houle that he tent introduced fo many . bills, yet his condo& was held no official fituation. fie (Mr. Yodel had arm till now called in Mullion. The Honourable owned, in every meafure he had propored,that he Castleman had (tested to fay, that debate ought not had got no official communication. This he had done •to be free, when he hinted at addreffing his Majefty in order that the Houle might canvas the matter to Waifs any Member of. that Hoofs on account of with greater attention. So far, therefore, the Haute - made by him. , He, however, would aver had the evil in their own power. As to the other (Agit he had as good if t any Member whatever, Right Hon. Gentleman, who was nut performing the 4 11101110 attempt tolimi right was a thing wholly duties of his office, the Houle might adopt any mea t, He therefore, that else Hon. lure they might think proper. It had been hid, that would fee "ety of not pulling a Gentleman in expelancy mutt be fuppofed to be :11beamosor any further. is Honourable Gentle- under the influence of the Crown, and that he midi pion noosed hulloed to . pollt him (Mr. Potter) into vacate his feat previous to his commencing any part lace, without coafideting Whether or not he was of his duty. If that wu found to be fulfilled, then Imre to take the official (minion alluded to. that Right Hon. Gentleman would be rendered re. r. WINDHAM hid, he was not at all &tidied fponfible. An Addrefs to the Crown could not be • widb the arguments of the Right Honourable relented till Each time as a perfon had undertaken • Genthensm, as befog any anfwer to what bad been the official Gmation, of the conduit of which filch an vt% his Roaoarable Friend (Mr. Francis).— addrefs was intended to complain. If that Right was, how flu. the Houfe ought to Hon. Gentleman had (hewn himfelf incapable of the wider dit i p i roper way of dondueing bulinefs. It charge previous to his accepting the office, the prayer wertably was not the sisal way in which bills have of an Addrefs to the King could oily be, that his grime ummagod relative to publicaffairs, allowing them Majefly fhould not confirm the grant. .into to be bressin forward by perfons not holding Dr. LAURENCE Paid, that this dircultion was elkiallhonsloon If the Chancellor of the Eitche. material, becaufe it had arifen from a meafure againtt /leer was to beallowed.to bring forward his bufmefs which Gentlemen might be induced to vote, if it swim of another, be (the Chancellor of the Es- &mild appear that the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. • ) night retire from his Caution, and fay to Fidler) had no better information upon the bonnets dbe wins India, fault with itatements."You in quettion than other Hon. Members. It appeared t ire% urn noillaltea. I have done nothing but what every to him to be an anomalous and a new finalities and individual Member had a power to do." A petton it was exceedingly proper that tome notice fliouid be 46 office had accefs to-facts information as precluded taken of it, fo as to draw forth the curium of Par any snots from exilibig. It was highly proper to liament. flay this matter before the naafis, in order that fuel Mr. FRANCIS explained. He did not mean to M wmarbtd e front its co lows might not take fay that the Right Hon. Gentleman might not, Aril- Th illbes. e ' Honourable Gentleman had evi- ly ( peaking , have a right to make fuch a motion, from d:S almeli pat ' in a plats of marked ezpatancy. his filename as a Member of Parliament. He (Mr. mad Might thus go ea tranfatting Wads, fo as to Francis) had only alluded to the danger of introdu es the operatic* of the law. There appeared eine an improper pedent. to be two Chancellors of the Exchortr foe Mr. R I)KINNAI aid, that when the Right Hon. the one a Imelda( sad the other-a Gemg Gentleman oppofite to him (Mr. Fofter) brought rinser (a losiii), _thosigh Neh a co-panaerthip was forward the trill Budget. be (Mr. Kinnaird) had Wee heard of lecke. In other weeds, be might confidered all the various flatements therein. as thaw was a Chancellor of dm Ger for Ire proceeding from official information. Had he con with two heads. Peollawaent eight to know ceieed it to be otherwife, he would have refueed his she floseitess of that Ace were to performed content. His Majefty and the country were badly them. One dello two mouths was to (peak, (creed. and Ireland was left in a difgraceful fituatioo. lib& she ether was to rd pain as it were behind die The Right Honourable Gentleman was in the fours- assisisi like the lomboriee of the horizon, one of tion of a pert= who had purchafed an elate, the which inelt only appear while the other is withdrawn titles to which were not compleated. There was a en At. In Sort, it was neeeffirry for the Houle to injectable evalion fomewhere. This quellion would Mew who was Chancellor of the Exchequer for Ire- have a very ufeful tendency, ask would lead to (hew hind s and whore flatement the .Houfe was to depend whom we were to look to for refponfibility, in regard upwind he therefore wised fur a mote fatisfatory to theft matters. The Right Honourable Chancel. anfi ere. for of the Exchequer (Mr. Pitt), prefumed himfelf The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER refponfible for the affairs of this country. As to the *id. he was really at a lots to know what was the manlier with two heads, however, he dared to fay ~i of the dikurim It teemed to be much more that the print mops would loon take care to carica hited for entertainment than for the purpok of cure fuch a moniker, fo as to point out the head on weadeeiag any real good towards the particular Bill which the greaten refponfibility is attached. the Route, He was at is lots to ccnceive what Mr. FOSTER Paid, that in the difeuffion as to the was the mean of all this conflitutional jealouly. His Collator's balances, he had repeated more than once Right Honourable Friend had performed no one at there words, that "he had no aced' to perfons in which it was not competent fur any Member of the office." Houle to undertake, though not in an official fitua- Mr. JOHNSTONE obferved, that if the Right don It was in the power of the Houk to decide Honourable Gentleman was not reponfible, the Houfe whether or not they ought to attach credit to the was deprived of the perfon to whom they were en- Ikatenstats laid barite them. He knew of nothing titled to attach refponfibility. which precluded any Member from making fuch a Mr. HUTCHINSON thought the Bill before the motion as well as the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Hoofe of very great importauce to Ireland, and When matters were introduced into that Howe by withed it might be printed. perfons in official cautions. it was only fignifying the The queffion was then very generally called for, content of the Crown. He knew not bow the law and the Bill was read a fecund time, and ordered to bad been violated. The only queflion was. whether be printed. the warehoufing of fpi • ould not be contented to, Illes1.! ZXCHSVER BILLS BIEL. because. the propofid had come from his Right Hon. Mr. FOSTER brought up a Bill for railing Friend ? 800,0001. for the ferrite of Ireland, by Loans on Ex- Mr. SHERIDAN laid, it was no wonder that the chequer Bills. Right Hon. Gentleman had been amsfed, becattle On the motion that it be read a fire time, there was fomethiog very r idiculous in the fititati ,, n Mr. JOHNSTONE role and laid, he would with of the Right Hon. Gentleman who had made she to know on what authority the Right Hon. Gentle motion. That Right Hon. Gentleman was on the man fated, in anfwer to a queftion put by another verge of receiving the falary of his office, unlefs he Right Hon. Gentleman, that there was an arrange meant to leave it, as well as part of the duty, in the ment by which no part of thofe Exchequer Bills were bands of his predeceffor, while he himielf was to to come into circulationf execute the office. If that Hon. Gentletnan had been Mt. FOSTER anfwered, that what he had laid on ftriftly introduced as Chancellor of the Exchequer, the i.ccalion alluded to, was only that he had under the Hoofe would not have been fav• ored with his flood that tome arrangement had been made in Ire company that night. He (Mr. Filler) had fatal, that land to that cleft. If the Honourable Gcntletnan an Hon. Member had walled to inttude him into wifhed to have a &riot's anfwer, he (Mr. Fuller) office, even conttat yto his inclit.a.ion. When a Gen would fay, that he had no authority to make any demon elude t • take all the ti•ortsle of an official fire. fuch flatement. ation, without Any of the emoluments, he certainly The Bill was then read a Gra time, aod ordered to Iliewed that he was in expetation of ptocuting it.— I be read a fecond time tomorrow. If fetch was the cafe, the Hon. Gentleman was only IRISH CrSTOSI DUTIII , SILL. in a Hate of expalancy, and we had a Chancellor of Mr. FOSTER prefented a Bill for the better re tbe Exchequer for Ireland at prefent doing nothing. plating the Cullom Duties in Ireland, apd to pre- The Hook had therefore a Tight to addrefs hi. Ma- vent fraud therein. Jetly, listing the ciretunflances of the ;ale, in order Mr. SHERIDAN again role, and obferved, that t 'make the perfon alluded to do his ditty, or elle not the queltion Allred by two Honourable Friends near to receive the Gamy. The tuning Chancellor would him, requited an anlwer ; but he defpaired of ta bs the end be accufit g the fleeping Chancellor, who' trailing one (tom the Right Hon. Genrkman, as would come to she Route f r the porprife of defend- he nbvioufly was not the jpelLa t Chancellor of the jag liintlelf. Both of theft Right Hon. Gentlemen Exchequer ; and though the Right Hon. Gentleman were guilty of a rots millake. and termed to be igno• had laid that a ferious anfss et could hardly be ex fain 1.1 cnollitotional jrahnity. This Houle could not peeled, yet be cnnfidercd the quellioo as too felt *Drell the King as to an individual Member; but nun to be anfwettd .n jell. He walled. to know it that Member be an Met of the Crows, oat of I whether the Right Hon. Gentleman hinted( bad sot pledged hie faith to the lank of Ireland that no Exchequer Bills fhould go into circulation ? It was abfolutely neceflary, for the credit of the coun try, that this point thoold be explained, and that the Bank of Ireland fhould know upon whole pledge they had to rely. Mr. FOSTER, in a ferions Byle of humour, re plied that the Hon. Member's queftion reminded him of what happened in the Irifh Houle of Com mons, when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer : Several Members were putting queftions. and de manding anfwers, upon official fubjeas, during his abferice, when a Member role and laid, when the Gentleman whole bufinefs it was to give asewers fhould be in his place. thole qualms should be an- Witted. (Agoura? la rjb. ) The Bill was then read the firft time and or dered for the fecond reading to-morrow. LOYALTY LOAM. Mr. ALEXANDER brought up the report on the Loyalty Loan, which being read, Mr. ADDINGTON role, and Paid, that being unavoidably abfent from his attendance when the late difcafion took place on this fubjea, he wised not now to detain the Houfe longer t h an to do what he felt to be his duty. namely, to re-affert his formes opinion, that the holders of Rock in that Loa* were not entitled to payment before April, 18os ; a ma. jerity of the Houle had Co decided upon a former night ; and relying, as he did, upon the opinions of the &II law authorities in the land, he was Sill of tb• o at fame opinion. The report was then a to. Sir HENRY STRACHEY bro up the Re. port of the Committee on the India . It was fbordy read, and ordered to be takes; sato farther conßderation on Monday next. • STAMP DIM'S. The Order of the Day being tead for the Houfe going into a Committee on the Additional Stamp Flume, on the Motiun that the Speaker do leave the Chair, • Mr. SHERIDAN rote, and &jelled to a Com mittee of that Houfe proceeding to the coufideratioo of any meafure with the nature and extent of which they were unacquainted: He knew that the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Pitt) was in polliffion of a fchedule, Chewing the, we amount of the prefent Stamp Duties, and of the relation which they bore' to thole now defired to be impofed ; be obferved, even, that other Members of the Houle were pottered of fimilar fchedules ; he could not, therefore. figure any ' reafon why they were not in the hands of every Mem ber of the Houfe, and he thought that the Houfe in general, and be, ar one, had a right to complain that this was not the cafe. Without thine evidence before their eyes, , of the relative amount of the duties they were called on to epee with thofe which prefently exifted, inftead of thoufands they might be impofing millions of additional taxes on their Conftiments.— In his opinion, it was not to be endured, that. Go vernment asould build a revenue to itfelf on the pre vention of jullice to the community. On this ground he had an objeaion to the taxes of this defcription which it was propored to increafe. He had no ob. jeeion to increafe the revenue of the country by any of the common and ordinary means, but he could not help thinking it monftrous, that with Inch a view the inhabitants of this country mould be denied sneers to jullice. A licence to apply for juflice bad been uniformly 441.94.1. Asa 1644 been sticrapted ly in' the molt arbitrary times. He defied any man, however, to point out a meafure which had a meter s 7 efembLence to a licence to obtain law than feveral of thofe now projetled teemed to amount to. He remembered a Prong and appofite remark of a very lhrewd and difcerning man upon this fubjett, Mr. H.Tooke, who obferved, that it was boafted the Law Courts of this Country were open for every man who fought jullice; and fo alto was the London Ta vern : but to a man who was deftitute of money to obtain it, jrifiire was as far out of his reach in the one, as luxitriu in the other. The tax was betides a very dangerous precedent; for a Miniker might fay, a (lamp duty was a handy way of railing money, and it might go on to an elects which would sbfolutely preclude men from reeking any redrefs at law. Even in the prefent fchedule, the tax on proceedings in Chancery were railed to as per cent. This mutt pre vent men totally from reeking any redrefs in that Court, where the uncertainty of fuccefs would hard ly be worth the rile of expence, and defeat utter ruin. It was totally faerificing the public jullice of the coun try for the fake of railing the revenue. It was open ing the Courts to the rich, and totally excluding the poor and the oppreffed from every chance of jullice, whom it was the object of the laws to proted and redrefs free of any charge, for they contributed to the original charges for the adminiltration of judice in the payment of his Majefty's judges. It was in fait to bring things to the original date previous to the attainment of Magna Charta, when the fubjea Curtained the gti:vance of paying a licence to the King for liberty to enter his Courts in fearch of ju Rice, and thus actually felling the judice of the land io violation of the principle of that great Charter—. wow vcodentus, multi ociatitus, juttitiairs." It might be a derivable thing, he would allow, to dif courage the tpirit of litigation ; but this ought not to be done by terrifying femurs from feeling real right by taxes and penalties ; the expenses of law were al ready futficiently enormous and oppredive, and it would be the duty of Government to reduce inftead of increAfing them. He objected alto to the annual titx upon Attotnies, to which they ought sot to be liable more than men of other profeffions ; though he would admit the original tax upon admiffion might have a falutAty operation in keeping improper per loos out of the profeflion. He objected alfo to the tax on infurance for annuities, as it would fevercly af fed a deferring clads of people; and he was the more furls* ifed at its coming from a Right Hon. Gentle man who, in his Bill fur the Income Tax, particular ly excepted from the charge the afTurance lin annui ties. But by this tax, the poor curate, who from a fcanty pittance +oared to contribute fomething dining lire, by way of alluring for his a ;dim and children Come means of evidence on his demife, would be fe verely injured. Walling, however, to feparate thole clauses in the lehedule which were peculiar ly obnoxious, in order En future and fuller dilcufGon. and not to impede thole which were not 11, exceptionable, he moved " that it be an inliroalon to she Committee to divide t h is Bill into two Bills, if they &all think fit." —. The CHANCEI.LOR of the EXCHEQUER raids that if the Hpa. CenOman 1141 crnployad a vary fmall portion of the time which had elapfed fine bufinefa was lad before the Houfe. in looking at t!,t, papers on the table, his mind would have been elm pletely relieved from the anxiety under which it fe me he had laboured concerning the prefent meafure. He would have found that a fchedule. containing the ave rages and totals of the &Taal duties, Inch as he had alluded to, was akually on the table ; and he would have Peen, that indeed of soo,oool. as he hay conjec tured, they did not amount to above from 50, 000!. to 60,0001. He was lorry that - this fehedule bad not b e en printed, as then the Hon. Gentleman might have employed foam of his friends to read it for him, by which means be might have collOed tome little knowledge of its contents. . He allotted to the ground i of obj eBion lea night. that the propafed ncreafe would fall too feverely on the lawyers, and Paid that be was happy to find that their advocates in that Houk badover•rated their objedions to the meafure. He had explained one error which had crept in, and which he was glad to know bad removed every ob. jedion of the Gentlemen alluded to. except as to the licence. He now found another objedion brough t forward, unqueltionably of a more important nature —namely, that the nada* was sncoofidutional. as it went to lay a tax on judicial proceedings. It was with pkalure, however, that he would fatisfy the ob. jedions of the Honourable Gentleman on this head. A fimilar tae bad exitted /ince the time of King Liam, at which period it was not altogether likely tha thing very onamaitutional would be at . tempted. There could not, he Should imagine, be any thing therefore untontlitutional or inconfident while fuel a variety of other things were liable to additional taxation, in Wanting that fpecies of tax now °Welted to. The Right lion. Gentleman alfo contended that fa& taxes went to prevent improper litigation, the more particularly as the coda in corn. soon full on the party who bad carried on an impro per adios; while on the other band. the honed and poor litigant was wadded to appear infireeposprir. He therefore law no redoes for irritating the two parts of the insofar, which he thought would be more generally underhood when Peen in one point of t view. - - . . _ Mr. SHERIDAN anfwered, that it would be a tedious operation indeed for Members to be obliged to read the paper, one after another, inftead of bar. in it printed. Dr. LAWRENCE entered into a long examina lion of the different items of the accounts, to which he very pointedly and ilrennou fl y objeaed, as be ing mo ft unequally and oprelEvely laid on. He re capitulated and enforced his arguments on a former night, and fupported the mottoes of Mr. Sheridan, in order, as every part of the useafore was not ob jeaisoabk. that an opportunity might be afforded of rendering it as palatable as ble. Mr. ADDINGTON took a confiderable Dore of the odium (if any), which attached to the formation of the fehednle before the Houle, upon himfelf.— The Stamp Duties bad, through the exertions of a Learned Friend of his, been fd generally fimplified, that be confidered that the advantages in many in, dances were more than equivalent to any advance which had been made in the rate of duty. Sir W. PULTENEY differed from the Hon Gentleman who fpoke lad as to going into a Com. mittee. The queftion goes to a great general prin. ciple, and was not fo proper for a Committee. fie thought the tax on law proceedings highly uncoil. ftitutsocal, and the Right Hon. Gentleman be knew once thought fo himfelf. Mr. Serpent BEST very ably oppofed the Tax on Law Proceedings', as abfolutely barring the doors of the Courts of Jultiee spina all the poor. as well as the middling order off - misty ; and laid, thatnoman could venture to leek juftice for a moderate fum of money without an expence of a damp more thav it was worth his while to pay. He denied that the Cot* of fuit fell upon the lofing party; for that party fres quality became infolvent during the cootie of huge. tion, and not only the coils of profecution, but the enormous expence of Ramps,. was to be added to the lefs of debt already fuftained. In many cafes the cit. cumftances were fo equally poifed that no cods were allowed by the Court to either fide, and in this cafe the incurred charge of Ramps would fall heavily on both. He confidered it as in effea a fate of jullice, and a rneafure which would deter men from teeking juflice. He always underllood the fair principle of taxation to be, that taxes fhould be laid nn thole who were moll able to bear them ; but in this cafe the principle would be inverted, and the burthen of the tax thrown where it could leaft be borne, upon the indigent and dithered. The tax ad valorem on the transfer of property, was a principle equally oppref. five, as it was a tax on the property, and not on an nual income, which the dint-Oki borrower pr;el, by frequent transfer, while the rich polreffor for twenty years paid nothing- Upon the whole he confidered it as a decided bar againtl public jullice. Mr. DICKINSON laid, the tax did not op prefs the poor, nor debar them againa plaice, be caufe it did not attach upon the proceedings before. Magifirates throughout the Kingdom. The ATTORNEY GENERAL laid. the whole of the arguments againit taxing law proceedings were not againft the prefent Bill, but aguish all the preceding Bills for impofing fuch taxes, and which the prefent Bill did no more than inmate. Mr. WINDHAM faid that ilk was an evil origi nally to tax Law proceedings, as he fully agreed it was, it furely murk be a ttill greater evil to tncreafe the tax. He coincided with all the arguments urged againti it, as a tax on public jultice, and decidedly againfl the maxim of Dr. Johnfon, that to bring the poor man and the rich one to meet on equal terns of juilice, was the greatell defider /CUM in our iyitem of jurilprudence ; a defideratum of which he always del - paired. but which this fyftem would render Rill more irnprallicable. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained. Alter Mr. WINDHAM had faid a few words is explanation, Stranger► were ordered to withdraw, but the motion was negatived without a divifi-n. When admiffion was again given, the Haile was in a Committee on the Ciallitt of die Stamp Duty h.li. Mr, ALEXANDER in the Chair. Mr. SHERIDAN (+jetted to the Sch. ! •• coming part of the Bill, AS 11141111 g kid I, •ci: cipated to the Houfe by which its judowl: co be formed on fo material an Addition. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIftQJ)L Laid, to lean out the kbettule would be of the e Bill. 1 matian which to neg genee l will g ill • Mr. and un employ armed mews. ends of potrefl blund espea With anent to fa taints tot I thnnj into Genf tho the what rot stm 'chi( the tee. ebtql lipa trial 1804 I. the 1 Bill FAO, i3:l JP 4r V