Star. — London, England, 1811-01-02 00:00:00

pressed by the last Speaker but one, and his warm disapprobation of the doctrine of an Honourable Friend of his. Never was he more astonished than up in hearing his Honourable Friend maintain that *ay should put all considerations of personal re. epect to the Sovereign out of their minds on this isecasion. It would indeed be a most cruel and pedantic interpretation of the Orders of the Howse to think of enforcing them under such circumstances,. It was fair, it was right, for his Honourable Friend to cenaider the feelings of his Majesty, and to pro vide that when the use of his understanding should he restored he shoidd not seestrangers around him. Unfortunately they had many proofs that neither age, war sickness, nor political habits had blunted the edge of that exquisite sensibility of which he era; possessed. His virtues too they must all have reverenced, it was in vain that any attempt was made to paint the suspicions entertained of succeed ing administrations to the fountain from which they flowed, the people found M the virtues both public and private of his Majesty, an antidote to the poi sun of party feeling. I-le did not want confidence in the illustrious person in whose hands it was pro pieed that the power should be lodged, he had all' that respect for him which his tank and virtues de manded, but of him they had not yet had experience, they had not been governed by him fifty years.— He was surprised to hear his Honourable and earned Friend talk of economy. It had been said that the establishment might be rated at £400,000 bills, but most of this was devoted to tradesmen's bills, and not to any Parliamentary influence. Be ' 7 s, it was now only demanded for a year, per s not few half a year, perhaps the whole sum r,p fettaired might not amount to £50,000, and would . 'bey refuse that to a Monarch who had reigned 'liter them fifty years( His Honourable and Learned 'friend supposed that the people of England approve - ,el such a saving, not merely on account of the sum 4 itself, but on account of the -popular purpose with which it was withheld.. But he (Mr. Stephen) would defend the people of England from such an imputa.' don. He was sure they would pay ten times the sum 'Vather than see their Sovereign inconvenienced, he was sure they would say curse upon the economy that saved us this while it left our respected and beloved M.aiarch in a * - situation so little according i with our wishes. He would ask by what kind of feeling did the Gentlemen upon the opposite side ex pect to be supported? He was surprised at the ob. jeetions made to the restrictions, as they were limited to the very moderate period of one year, and' main tained that no evil could follow from acceding to the original motion. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY condemned the great injnstice done to the Royal Person about to be in- Vested with the regal powers, in the speech of the last illonourable Member. The Honourable Membq had * ted, that vesting the power of removing the Ma tters of the Household in the Regent, was in effect 'die same as removing them from the person of the Monarch immediately. Had the House any reason 0 to doubt that the feelings of his Royal Highness were in unison with those of his Royal Father ? ' lirhat security had the country in the administration 4i. the household affairs under her Majesty more than under the Regent ? But Gentlemen seemed to think that the Prince would not act in such a manner as to provide for the comforts of his Majesty. They bad i made an improper use of his Majesty's name by sta ring that nothing would affect him so much as the removal of the Lords of his Bed Chamber. What : ground had they to suppose that his Royal Highness would so act ? Did not the whole of his conduct once a contrary disposition ? With respect to the 1 'necessity of imposing restrictions, the Honourable and ...ned Gentleman 'entertained great doubts as to 'deo necessity. He could not agree in opinion with 1 those who contended that the two Houses or Parlia ment possessed the right of substituting something which avoid stand in the place of the executive power, without any power, or at least without all the power which belonged to the Executive. Wes it intended to be insisted that Parliament were compe tentao create a new Constitution ? What powers did they possess to say that the royal authority should be . 05 restricted ? The right was not vested in them, but in the three branches of the Legislature by the Con stitution ; therefore to maintain that they were suffi cient to create such Constitution, was in effect to as sitme what to them did not appertain. The duty of Parliament was in fact to restore undiminished the whole Constitution. As to that branch of the royal authority connected with the bestowing of peerages, be could not see any distinction to be drawn in that rispect, so as to warrant a suspicion that the Regent 'mild exercise the prerogative but upon national and principles. Would it be contended that his Royal ness would be so advised as to advance to the , the l'irinee-er Wales siletild pad Veer to that Illus trious Person as much curtailed as possible, was the favourite object of Ms Pitt. Would then any one contend that the struggle for power then displayed by that Statesman was the fair and unbiassed bearing of his mind ? cirith respect to the necessity of im posing restrictions as a measure of expediency, he had not beard any argument in favour of such expediency. Was the present the time, unless for fallacious and interested views, to fulminate such a doctrine ?—Cer. tainly not; the Regal Authority must be supported with all the accustomed splendour, without, as was now proposed, keeping on the People, who are ill able to endure them, additional burthens for the main tenance of a separate establishment, not at all neces sary for the Comfort of the Sovereign. Was it a pro per way of sliming to the People of England that the Prince was entitled to confidence and respect, by refusing to repose confidence, and by diminishing the splendour of Royalty ? The danger to be apprehen ded to the country was by influing into the minds of -the People a distrust of the Sovereign Authority, by holding out to theris that the Heir Apparent is not a fit person to be entrusted with unlimited power. The danger, therefore, in his opinion, was infinitely greater in not reposing confidence—in making the Prince as it.were a half King. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman concluded with deprecating the experi ment of fettering the Royal will, and thereby throw ing a stigma on the Executive Authority, which must be highly injurious not only to the Royal Person, but .to the general interests of the State. Mr:WILBERFORCE defended the fifth Resolu tion, and argued strongly in favour of all the restric tions. He defended Mr. Pitt's character, saying, that in all his views his conduct was patriotic, dignified, and disinterested. Mr. ADAM expressed the anxiety with which he I rose on the topic alluded to by the last Speakef," and I conceived that as to the character and conduct of Mr. Pitt, it had nothing to do with the question'lm mediately before the Committee, which must stand upon its consequences alone. It was much to be desired that the discretion as to the disposition of the i Royal household could be left to the Prince, con vinced as Ee was that he would shew his attachment to his Royal Father. Ini examining the component parts of the Royal household, it would be seen that it consisted of the Master of the Horse, the Lord Steward of the Household, the Lords of the Bed chamber, &c. The offices could not be regulated in i a Bill, and of necessity ought to be left at the discre- ' tion of the person who was the object of the proposed Regency ; leaving that particular part of it spore im-1 rnediately necessary to be under the controul of her Majesty, at her disposal. It appeared, hofrever,that l there was very little difference in opinion as to the disposition, generally speaking, towards the comforts of his Majesty's situation. With respect to respon sibility, he must contend that the responsibility of the Regent was like that of the Monarch—his Ministers were the only responsible persons. In that light must be viewed her Majesty, when having the care of the Household. Mr, A. then contended, that the argu ments of those Gentlemen wlio had opposed the re strictions with respect to the power of the Crown re maining in the hands of the Monarch, although dele gated to the Lord Justices, were correct. He o how , ever, must strongly contend against the Prerogetives of the Crown being crippled, especially in a time of war. Was it possible, he observed, in regard to our foreign relations, that a Regent so restricted could act beneficially for the State? Lord DESART supported the restrictions in ware terms, panegyrized Mr. Pitt, and lamenta that the' Honourable Gentleman should hive gone out of his tory to cast a stigma upon so great a man, who, in ' every point of view, had proved himself not only a good statesman, but a firm friend to his country. Mr. FULLER said, that as this was only a ques tion of Je15,000, and could not be put in competition with the recovery of his tThjesty, he thought those who occupied certain situations in the Household were not worthy of those situations if they would not give up for a 'twelvemonth as much of their emolu ments would amount to that suns. Had he an office, be would do so with pleasure. His Majesty ought to be shewn that lie was not deserted by his People. His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales had shewn him particular favour, and might to be treated with. the utmost respect ; but he should con sider himself a villain to his King and Country, if he did not support the proposed plait. His Royal Highness ought to feel, that in preserving the rights of his Royal Father, Parliament preserved his own rights, and ultimately the rights of his darling daugh ter, who at some future period might possibly require similar protection. Mr. C. ANNING declared, that in the vote which he should give in favour of the amendment, he should reserve to himself the fullest liberty when the Bill wot f oi st igl nours of the peerage any persons but those who for s hould b e b roug ht i n , to cons id er m i nute ly a ll the de meritorious services were entitled , to it ? He well tails by which the Resolution would be carried into ;knew that even the Right Honourable and Learned effect. The doubt was, whether any political power, Gentleman had refused the Chief Just i ce of the Corn- and if any, what should be confided to thos e h an d s to , ! *on Pleas, because he was not to be made a Peer which it was agreed by all the care of his Majesty's the occasion. It was a proof therefore that none person ought to be entrusted. Many argued as if fp ut persons of merit were ennobled, yet he did , not the settlement of the Regency on the Prince, and the . mean to say that the Right Honourable Gentleman vesting of the care of his Majesty in his Royal Con was not entitled to be rewarded for his public services sort, were to be points eternally and immutably set- Tlie distinction that was to be made in that respect, tied. Although fie agreed in the expediency of both eras consequently invidious ; it was such a distinc- these measures, he begged leave now to be understood j which he could not comprehend. The Ho- as expressing an opinion, that in all possible future lineable and Learned Gentleman then adverted to cases the Regency or the care of his Majesty's person: ifie Precedent df 178 S, upon which these Resolu- must be so confided. He utterly denied that the two *inns mere rounded, and, in commenting upon Houses of Parliament were.settling immovable prece- ' t h a t 'p re cedent, took occasion to remark upon the dents for the future. The proposed resolution consisted, kharatter of that illustrious Statesman, Mr. Pitt. of three parts. To the first, affirming that it was expe -Those who loved the memory of that person, dient to commit the care o f hi s M a j es ty, d ur i ng hi s ill-1 ta t dhaeroed,'were fond of eulogizing him, but in his 'less, to the Queen; and to the last, affirming that in ! opinion his memory did not claim any eulogy ; he order to the due administration of the trust, it was fit bad itnt.the'pretensions to the character of a great that the Queen she led have a Council to aid htr. To ' titan ; it war the province and duty of a great matt to these two propositions there appeared to be no objec aonnnister to the comforts—to improve and better tion. It was the intermediate proposition which oc •the condition of the State over which it had pleased casioned debate, namel y, it was expedient that her Majesty namely, that, for the due adminis I his country to place him . That Mr. Pitt possessed ; t rat i on of the tr ust, great and splendid talents could not be denied ; but should be vested with considerable political power.— that these talents were employed for the benefit of The question was, whether this great political power; hi s cow he must deny. Th e gre: t talents athat should b e d ep ts i te d i n a quarter i n w hi c h suc h person . l u t e exerted to impair and impoverish the power had never before been deposited ? The original of mankind. It was impossible tha t any resol u ti on wou ld g i ve h er M a j esty t h e power o f re- , taaan shouldsread the authority of that time, and not movi ng at pleasure no less than 16 great officers, ; be convinced that in making the precedent, his dnly s sitting in the House of Lords, And a smaller number; object was to maintain the power villich he then pos- in the House of Commons. By adopting the proposed by any me ans, and in any way, as long a s ke , amendment , the Committee would not negative the odd-70 1 11$ pima abort thojk to b. iumwd in Propesitiun of eGnunitting into the Inuads of her Ma • . . _ _ • . • veiy ! tibooddriat %moil Zikt MO) it* And many such measures there must be, caleulat ed to produce much more irritation than the pre. sent proposition could possibly occasion in the mind of any reasonable man. The Right. Honourable Gentleman bad disclaimed all lust of power. He (Mr.Whitbread) could :tot help, however, suspect. ing that somewhat of that lust still rensnined lurk. ing in that Right Honourable Gentleinnt's mind, and that by that lust he was at present actu a s c e He reprobated the seethitents exPressed by an Ho. nourable Gentle Man below him (Mr. Wilberforce), who, achidst the hesitations and bledbfs which he sometimes appeared to be perplexed,had said that it was an object to see with what small power the caeca- Live government could be conducted.` Tl.e Right Hoe. Gentleman had expressed himself ready to give up an objectionable part of the proposition to thos. who Would vote with him, intimating, dust although th present Resolution should be agreed to, any aiteratitet might be made in the q obseqnent btlt. "L'hus to ,i4l studied insult dtferea to the Prince of WAItS t Right Hon. Gentleman wished to add alt insult so hei Majesty; for what could be more irisuldkl, than to address her Majesty with one proposition, and to make leg islative provision by which the t that proposition would le materially changed Right Honourable °cesium in had talked of ti, r 1.1: 7'14 dour of his Majesty. Splendour I What :.w::;'. tel apply to the present situation of . the Soeetei:a Splendour I Whence derived ? Only from 111;'iesig. nation and piety. Cotr.forts. indeed he might h.tve. The tears of anguish might be wiped from liiieyes. Had that been done ?—Had his Majesty been treated with due care and attention ? Hu trusted the time would come when both these questions must be an. swered. The Prince, however, WAS, it seerned,th have an establishment worthy of the Regent, while the "splendour" of his Majesty remained unitnpaired. ....There must then be another *Master of the Horse, another Lord Steward, another Lord Chamberlain, &c. Were *these new -officers to be hired on the jab, by the day, or by the month? The country would have to pay two establishments, the one for the Kiugj the. other for the Prince, while the Clown Would remain without any establishment, and all this be. cause Parliament must not exercise their own free will, lest it should militate against a will morally extinct. The question was, as indeed it had beta very explicitly stated by an Hon. and Learned Gentle. man opposite, whether Pmbament would or would not create a fourth estate in the realm ? He had been set much accustomed to disappointment in his expect*. tiens as to the decision of that House on subjects upon which his conviction was complete, that he was never eery sanguine as to the result of any proposition. Of this, however, he was sure, that whatever-might be the extent of his hope on the present occasion, the fear of the Right lion. Gentleman opposite was still more I considerable. . festY any future politics) potter halt niight be L. /necessary, they wonid merely abstain from ras. adopting stash a proposition at present. In a case such tonsequence and novelty., he could not hesitate, in preihrence to deciding the question in a einglenight, to adopt that proposition, which would afford time to pause, to deliberate, and to reconsider the subjectas- Far was it from him to be influenced in this question —a question so closely connected with the interests of a suffering individua of such high rank and importance, and of such dearness to the hearts of his subjects--to be influenced by any considerations of a pitiful economy. He wished to guard the sacred n of the Monatch with the utmost rev e r ence .' person e st s l vould covet his greatness, not with the curtain of oblivion, but with the veil of sanctity. He would take special care that those officers of his Majesty's Household, whom his Majesty honoured with his par ' titular choke and favour, should not be removed from their situations, but should be among those by whom his Majesty might find himself surrounded on his restoration to health. Between the difficulties which presented themselves to his mind—on the cne hand attendant on inflicting upon her Majesty the painful task of conducting any political power ; and, Oct the other of confiding to the Regent the tight of removing from his Majesty's person any officer whom his Majesty might wish to see in attendance u pon him on his recovery—there appeared to him to be no course to adopt, but to select that portion of the Royal Au thority which ought to surround the King. and to fix it immoveable by law. He could see no other mode of obtaining this object than by voting for the pro posed amendment. He would say something of the practical view which he entertained of the arrange ments that might be made with advantage on the sub ject of the officers of the Household. Of the great Offi, • rs of the Household, who were daily in per- I sone' attendance on the Sovereign, he would recom- ' mend that the Lords of the Bed-Chamber and the Groom of the Stole—perhaps, also, the Lord Steward, with whose duties-he was not very well acquainted— should be placed out of the possibility of being re moved from their attendance on his Majasty during his illness. There would remain the Lord Chamber lain (now vacant), the Master of the Horse. and the' two Gold Sticks, which offices were chiefly for pomp. and show. These four offices might form the bash of an establishment for the Regent, possessing all the 1 splendour . which ought to accompany the represene' tetive of the'Crown, and the executor of its duties. The Honourable Gentleman proceeded to place hia argument,; in a variety of lights, and concluded by re peating his determination to vote for the amendments ,The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would not detain the Committee long, as the question lay in a narrow compass Indeed he would not have addressed the Committee alpin e had it not been for the call upon him by an Honourable Gentleman op pesite, and also for his wish to correct what he con-1 ceived to be a misrepresentation on the part of his 1 Right Honourable Friend who had spoken last.-i- 1 He repeated his anxiety for the success of the present, Resolution, on the ground of his apprehension that in the event of its failure the most serious calamity imight be anticipated itithe possible effect of his Ma jesty's mind on his recovery, should he find that Parlia- ment had been in, re grudging in their provisions res I specting him than at a former period. He denied that he had been disorderly in introducing the name of his Majesty into the debate. On such aaubject it ; was impossible to avoid it. His Right Honourable Friend had argued as if the Resolution before the . Committee wait fundamentally objectionable on con stitutional principles. Yet, if he did not mist ecollect, his Right Honourable Friend had formerly charac terized the plan of 1788 as " the. pattern of political -wisdom." Now, really, he could not see that the al teration from peace to war occasioned such a differ ence in the two instances as to make that which was the essence of political wisdom in 1788 fundamentally unconstitutional at present. He was persuaded that his Right Honourable friend had not been in the House at an early part of the evening, when he had i expressed his willingness, it, by so doing, he could ! conciliate any considerable number of persons to abandon that part of the Resolution which vested in her Majesty's hands the power of removing any of the officers of the Household, otherwise he should • have hoped that his Right Honourable Friend would have preferred an amendment of that nature to the amendment proposed by the Honourable Gentleman I opposite, which radically pledged Parliament to a diminution of the household establishment of his Ma t jesty. If the original Resolutions were agreed to, and a Bill were introduced in consequence, the House would have the power, notwithstanding the concur rence of die Committee in the resolution, to entertain any amendment in the provisions of the Bill which a further consideration of the subject might shew to be necessary. The power of removal for instance, might ; be expunged from the till, if it were deemed neces sary to expunge it. He begged to disclaim the im putation that in proposing the plan which he had pro ' posed, he was influences by a wish to retain political power. By no such wish was he influenced. The motives on which he resisted the amendment were • sincere, though he might be erroneous, and if the Committee should adopt that amendment, he hoped to Goo that those motives might be found as I.IiOIICOUS as they were sincere. Mr. CANNING explained. Mr. WHITBREAD declared that kited not been his intention to take any part in the present discus- sion, having meant to defer the statement of his (pi nion until the Report; but the extraordinary asser tions of the Right Hon. Gentleman rendered it im possible for him to abstain from trespassing for al short time on the patience of the Committee. The : Right Hon. Gentleman having broken down all the I barriers of the Constitution, and having usurped the Prerogatives of the Crown, had now broken slowa the accustomed barriers of debate in that Hcuse. It was inconsistent with the principles of debate, that the . Right Hon. Gentleman should make as appeal from the j udgment to the feelings °idle Commi .te^; and that introducing the name of the Sovereign he should tell them,.that it they voted a certain proposition, the effect on the Royal mind might be to throw it back from a state of complete recovery. into the most deplorable derangement. What a deplorable picture did the Right Hunourable Gentlemen thus paint of the pzobeble state of mind of the Sovereign lotthe time to come! Good Gob l If that picture were accurate, would the Right Honourable Gentlenuid ever venture to propose to iihillgajesty b after his rico. IMr. STEPHEN trusted the candour of the Como mittee would allow him to explain away one of the t , most extraordinary misrepresentations that had e ve r been made. The Honourable Gentleman opposite bad addressed an auditory, bah of whom were pro. bably not present at the time he delivered his send. =bents. He jherefore begged to say the Hun. Gentle. man, in ascribing to him a wiA fur the creation of a i fourth estate, had put worth into his mouth which he (had never uttered ; but when objecting to what had I fallen from the. Noble Lord opposite, he b a d wilt made use of the term of an cpponent for th e sak e of argument, and said that it that which had been so de. scribed were a lourtb estate in the Constitution, I* could imagine a case in which it might be more yetis. factory to the Regent himself, that such power should be lodged as proposed than entrusted to him. He knew not what might cause his Right Hon. Friend to put his hands before his face while he happened to be speaking, he could only say, that if he (Mr. Ste phen) had been the friend of the Hon. Gentleman op posite (Mr. Whitbread) he should have felt disposed to put his hands before his face at every paragraph of that Honourable Gentleman's speech.. (Laud cria of Rear, hear.) Mr. WILBERFORCE also explained, declaring that he was never more astonished than at the misre• presentation of the lion. Gentleman. What he had said with respect to the power of the Regent was simply, that it was expedient to c:nter on the Regent that power, and :Itaz power only, which was necessar/ to carry on the Government of the Muntry in an et. &lent manner. Mr. WHITBREAD said be was at a loss to con. ceire to what part of his speeth the Hon. Gentleman had alluded. He had merely said that the appoint ment of the h01154101d was by no means essential to the power of the Regent. • Lord CASTI..ERIAGH considered it unconsti. tutional to entfust her Majesty with the controul of the whole of the King's household. Such controul was not connec Le& with the trust immediately confided to her—the custody of his Majesty's person. The Regent, he thought, ought to appear in the splendour of roy..lty, and nut in a splendour el his own and such arrangement heconeidered as by no means trench. ing on the comforts of his Majesty in his present si tuation. With this feeling he could not but concur in the amendment. Mr. BATHURST took a view of the state of the question in all its Ltarings, briefly noticing the argu ments adduced on each side, and gave it as his opt. nion that it would be better to take into cousideratim the restrictions necets.try to be imposed on the Queesf hereafter, as it could not be doubted lout sufficient opportunities fur so doing would occur. A division took place, when the numbers were— For the Amendment 2:X.—Against it 213.--shl. , jo. rity for the Amendment 13.—Adjournen at Twelve I o'clock. 115011. • Io Linooln'►lnn Fields, the I.ad) 4 G. B Tyndale, F*q. of a Thursday, at Henham, fn Suffolk, Nathaniel Mickittlysvalt, A. of Bereft, fa Norfolk, to the klotioutable Charlot.e Ma rianna Harriet Rous, second daugfacr of the Right Hoi:ourabfe Lord Rms. DIED. Saturday, December Y!, at t. Lawrence, In the Isle of Tha• eet, itictiart.Waiburtm. Lytton, Epq. o Kutbssorth-place, Seed 65. • • LONDON : Piintrd mud pobbo ed by LEVEL. KENT, at the srAvOincti; lample-Lar lei No. 1, Carromin. .