Star. — London, England, 1816-03-05 00:00:00

Ay Fit e e tinl4 tot eh, t iiii. rift :d be GB-- ture4i op & 1 r whii 4 ri thAt ed ie ie.' Emily by lad to, il pal ••• • . • : 6 eincerafileleitdy nee geglaritl io a n ortiitttional point of view, whin taajotained in dependently of Parliament...- 31 •; t w as stationed, the proper course would lea i n Parliament the coatroul over its par.—. conideration.was, should France fail in the ntr s of of her contribution , how could the British iy be se pported ? Ministers coold not attempt to be op the deficiency yitfo'ut a palpable and nil option of the C o nstitution—(Hear). io CHANCELLOR of the EXCI4EQUER ore d, ;hat the only doubt he entertained on the y . o f the honourable and Learned Gentle. IV/notion was as to the time ot its invoduction, thoug ht ;t woald be better the matter should o f t to the discreti.)n of his Noble Friend (Lord onto ), who would doubtless pay att.!ntion sobesobject. The object would, he thought, be . itta i ne d by bring left to the discretion ot tl.e gee; SPEAKER observed, that if the instructions D ow ordered, they would, of course, he mm on the Committee. If intro d u cud in the m ime, they would, of course, be open to mo. W. Oli.• Vir WYNNE thought the more proper and t ie course would be, that the Committee should oe instructions in the first instance. These were Est i ma tes recommended by the Crown . for the lickration of Parliament. At the end of the rt it was stated, in a uote, that the British troops p alaintained in France by virtue of a Convention o a r country, and that it was not neceslary to *charge of that branch ti the establishment loi Parliament. It the Estimates, with this super. sat e, were received without continent, the I n ie would, in fact, be tolerating this mode of Npg a British army. i a structioas to'the Committee were then car. id. Ori theooestion being put that the Speaker l i k e ee we chair— ge WARD expressed his anxiety to declare, that f ingta to the Committee, he did not consider him ifpledgecl-to the Estimates, which were for ulterior oiderition. Without feeling an indifference to the Teconstitutional paints which belonged to a dis -000 of this kind, - he had yet to confess, that his • ' o n. were princip;illy confined to the financial o f the plan. In this view, he did not mean it as • com pliment, wlim he said, that die speech of tight lionote able Friend composite (Mr. Tierney) • eal•:-er, A few nights ago, had exct:eLkd eV :•11 $lOlO iged po.ver. ok that distinguisaed Loan. Near, hear ) In looking at Isis point of the t, h wield aot ies into Coe extend, d scale of colonial settlements ; but with the Neble Lord had !Ately 'sp. , kon (Lord Lascelles) he would ,that the great evil was in the system of our sax : He set no Value on our colonial acquisitions. :t rroald prefer a state of domestic peace to an Ar ,'p ataoi Islaeds 7 —( Hear, hear.) On the question the Property Tax, he would sly, that he doubted necessity, and he would also incidentally remark, at the measure in all its Et iges should have his de . opposition. With reference to the Army and dance Estimates, he thought they contained un wary demands—( Hear, hear,) -.-and he hoped .at tbeNobk Lord (Castlereagh), the occasion of abstnce he greatly regretted, had been in - by his colleagues of what had passed daring *age from that House, and particularly of the and character of the minority who voted on ay last He (Mr. Ward) would certainly . to the present Estimates. . PROTHEROE stated, that it would be un to return the Estimates without fan exami• into their contents. But in going into the tee, he would not vote for a single item which unexplained. He lamented the cisclaratien Noble Lord (Castlereagh) when he asserted, agreat military force was necessary to preserve - of Europe, for in his (Mr. Pretheroe'e) that peace could never be established with confidence and security, until the civil power an ascendancy over the military. Onr- insular was cur best security, and required little aid military character. The spt inn of our free Con . would renovate our internal system, and ul y establi,n the prosperity of the country. There so necessity cf meintainiug a I:irge establislanent this country, eltheugh he feared there was in Ire. J The prople here were so-trained to aims, that amid at any time furnish a sufficient number wr exigeecies. His great apprehension was, that bad, on the present ()cc:suit:lo, calculated easUishment witheut properly considering the /fie country--(Hear, hear.) Our financial were paramount to all others, and were Pat enls which we should prepare to avoid.— kering statement relative to our revenue was 'tied to consideration. It was built on a fel if the names of those who were engaged 11111 Ineta and exports were published, many ef would have been found either in the swollen lout late bankruptcies, or in the equally no- •• stall of those who had taken the benefit of the en t Acts. He had bad in Bristol a local op ' of knowing the distresses of the commercial they were truly alarming. It requited great to avow the principle of the Property Tax,' '(b l t- Protheroe) lamented that if this tax were the necessities of the country still called Peat supply, and, he saw no better mode of it titan by calling. yo great corporations and establishments fur a contribution suited to leans. He by no means intended to say, that - y Tax was not susceptible of great ante it. certainly was. But th e main point was, s " of national expense, which ought to be to its lowest scale. ROBINSON suggested the convenknce of the House to resolve itself into the Commit us to their admitting the introduction of topics of debate.—(llear).—Tben his Noble (Lord Palmerston), would have an oppurtu cigiviiig the necessai y explanations. 4NLIGENI' wished to be understood as not clog upon the principle of the question, iu .214 in their esiing into the Committee ; os. ( 7rarYl he believoi that many might think s"mittee ?b e proper place for . ericoenteting the or the katimates--a proposition most non. iL7.s extrave i ;e t :e iliest unsafe , we d uneosistitu te would prtoa:st againht the measure ii &tine, mould never consent to the R-port, unless 7444 t" wore not only roducal, but mUlte4l4l7 1 'G s d be. UM! De tie Piderl afoot , V, 1 .1 i • tile ~~~ is took eito ,wn ' 11.1 4 cr, , , • altered the Committee. He witild net also sepu rate the eeorbitant system of texetion.from the q tiOn of the MiliterY-Estehlisemeet ; they were both, he contended, inseparable in . their charscter, and the preient was not the moment • when the people ought to be called to pay, with the Property Tax. tor the re-chase of a standing army.. This was not the moment when the people should be oppressed fo r . the pa - ! rnent of that idle and peevish system of gew gaw dress, which had lately converted our army ot soldiers into (Apperently at least) an army of milli ners. The advisers of the him@ Regent should see that this was an idle, unmanly, and deitgetous po licy. It was much better that a Btish Prince should be surrounded by the unboueht a ffections of his peo ple than by squadrons or Germanized Hussars, who were expensively maintained at a moment when eco nomy should prevail. This proposition went on the verge and threshold of a military dospotTsm. It was alike fatal to the power of Parllaunent and the liber ties of the people. On the metion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. the House then resolved itself into the Committee of Supply. But Mr. Brogden, the regular Chairman of the Committee of Supply, not Icing in his place, and areelier fl.ei.surable Member being about to take the Cher , the former was loudly cabed for by several Menthers of the Opposition. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER assured the House that Mr. Brogden was indisposed. (Hear, and laughier.) Lord PAtivIERSTON, in opening the Estimates for the present year, observed, that he would not go ever that part of the Estimates which had In•en al ready debated ; but would reserve himself for reply. In the first place they should remember, that this was not so much a time of settled peace, as an inter mediate period between the war expenditure and the final reduction of the National Establishment, which , would bz effected as speedily as nessible. The re. duction of the Military Establishmeet of the present year, in comparison with diet of the last, was 74,000 men, and in amount of charg • 415,000,000. Beginning with the land forces, there was a reduction of 1300 in the honsehoki troops, this emnunted £35,00; the reduction in the cavalry 90(X), amountinr , t0:2314,30U. l Atter enernerating some of the arrangements relative to toe deceits of the forces in this country, the Noble Lord proceeded to state, that it was the intention of Grave: tment to reduce all tee Veteran and Garrison Beteilinits, two o' the West Itetia Regiments, and all the Provincial Corps in North America, which would create a sonsiderable searing to the counts f. A re. duttiou ot expense, eineunting to £392,000 would be occassaned by limiting the number of Quarter- Masters, the beer and marching menet., and the baunie and forage allowances. In the East IndiC Regiments; 742 men would be discontinued, and a greet reduction would take place in the recruiting service ; 41,436,000 would al-o lie saved by the dis-' etnbod) log .f toe Militia, was in a progress to wards its complete reduction. The following reduc tions were also made in our exieeeleure :—.C3,767 in the pay of General Officers, together with a dimi nution of three Aides-de-Camp ot the Prince Regent, and two of the Dote of York's, besides si'veral Ma jor and Brigadier. Generals ; on the Fort ign Seeff, five Commanders of Fortes, one Gen-ral, and fifty Majiir-Generals, were to be reduced ; on the British Staff, two Mejor.Generals, two Aides-de-Cam-u, and two Brigade-Majors ; and in guernsey end'ltilky, two Major-Generals were to be substituted for the LLutenent-Generals now commanding in those Island---a further reduction of the Staff would ne cessarily arise in those Establishments. On the Fo reign Staff, the Corm - name:r of the Forces it Ceylon would be succeeded by a Lieu:en:int-General; t h e same at the Cape, the Mauritius, Gibralter, and Ja maica, where the Commanding Officers wouldbe suc ceeded Sy ethers of inferior rank, with a reduced Staff. There would in smaller items b..• a saving on the fo reign staff of twenty thousand pounds. In the lud pay of Superior Officers, there was an increase of nineteen thousand pounds. The reductions in the public departments amounted to sixteen thousand pounds ; in the estiddishruents of the Cummander-in- Chief, the Pay Office, War Office, and Adjutant and Qiiarter Master General's Offices. In Exchequer, Fees there would be found a diminution of fifty-two thnusand pounds. In the Ont-pensioners, there was an increase of £162,000 ;—in Widows' Pensions £6lOO. The Noble Lord here went through the de tails of reduction in the Volunteer Corps, which amounted to £14,000 ; and that of the Local Mi litia to t 263.000. H also explainid, that the Per. manent Staff could not well be reduced until the corps were altogether disbanded. In the Military , Celiege there was a reduction of 4377 ; but in the Military Asylum there was an increase of 411,000,1 owing to the extension of the inientine part of . the Establishment. The reduction in retiring Chaplains' was £899 ; in incidental expenses, £58,000 ; in thou Commissariat of Ireland, I€loo,ooo ; and in the Barrack Department of the seine kingdom, thirty. fOur thousand pounds. A reduction would likewise soon take place in the establishment of British officers' serving in the Portuguese Army. (Hear, hear )--. 1 The present charge under this head was not to be permanent, as those officers were not to be continued on the same footing, and nothing delayed the final arraugetnent respecting them but the concurrence of the Portuguese Government, which ,could not of course be readily known in this country,, from the great distance of the Brazils. Without proceeding through all the minutia: of the various items, which, however, he would explain if required by anti Gen tleman, he thought it sufficient generally to state, that the entire diminution amounted to 74,000 men, and' an expense of five millions. Evea in the Esti mates fo: the present year, there was another million, which in its nature was altogether temporary, and would not, he hoptd, appear in those of the succeed: ing year. If the Estimates were compared with those of 1814, the diminution of expense would be about eight millions, and this he held to be an evi dence of the serious intention of Ministers to reduce the Military. Establishment of the country as low as wax consistent with the honour and security of the country. He thought it necessary to advert to an assertion that had beta mades respecting the amount of the saving that would take piaca on a diminution, of twenty or thirty thousand men. This he had stated to be about ,C600,e00 ; and, notwithstanding the contradiction that had been made to that, he would evince the truth of his position. Oa the face of the Eetizaato it appeared that the expense of §0,a0() men in Francs Wits aidi9o4o6_ • SolOP•ing ' this army to be d, banded , the lsalf4ray of Eh , : 011i eel's would arno.int £159,000; and i.o fewer than a quarter of the corn would, ace , :r.ling to Nir.Wirr.! h a e,s preposition, be evstitled 9:11 a Jay pens! this would amount to £110y.)01, soaking tog t" £286,000, which, if deducted from the whole amott would leave little 'i u than he hid stAtrd. He el n• ceived that the best rno , le of coesidering the Est. mates would be to argue each sep:ir 'rely, and, lot that purpose, he would move, as Ow firs , I.•soluii At .- 4 , That it is the opinion of this Co.miniare, that an army not exceeding 176,d15 mei, incluiing the arm s in Franc-e, and that appropii.acd to the s,frvice of th: East-India Company, be granted to hia Nl.tje,ty lo the :service of the oresert year, frim the 2.5 , .h of 1)e. cember, 1815, to the `21411 of December, 1816, being 361. days." On the question being re.,J, Mc. BANKES toss, and said that he perfeale agreed wilt' his Noble Friend, in believing that the most convenient mode of considering the Estimates was to examine them separately ; but he ale) though( diet the present resolutron involved the general ques tion of the entire peace establishment. L w :s for the Committee to consider the nature and extent of the proposed E.timates, and to regulate them accordiii%; to their own feelings of their iustice and necessity On this account, he was surprised that certain Gen clemen, who had always the Constitution in their mouths, eleauld have refused to go into a Committee, and there exercise their undOubted - right to correct and Ater every extravagant proposition. By ne glecting that plain litre of procedure, the House had placed itself in an unpleasant dilemma, for had they succeeded in refusing the Estimates, and sending them b a ck to the Crown, they would have received them again from the same Ministers—(Hear, hear.) — The extent of those Estimates had been represented as not being permanent. He was aware that all, as they appeared before the Coni:nittee, were not per manent, bet those which seemed to bear a more per manent character, amounted at least to 99p000 men. It had been observed, that certain circumstances then existed in the political situation of Europe, rendering such an establishment necessary ; but was it probable. that those circumstances would vary in a few years? These circumstances were represented as being price cipally three. The first was, the unsettled snit d Europe, an 1 the cnntinneJ existence of that spirit tit military agitation, which, altivaugh nut actualli form• ing a tempest, had no., ir.awever, subsided into a calm. He had, indeed, been serieesly alarmed, by his Noblz, Friend (Lord Ceolereaei) on a former night remark, that not :1 tile pr military, spirit of Europe had seliside.i, it Nis n safe for this country to disarm. T. cos ee weia:4l advan:at one great ob jection —that principle would render the p of this country to sehservient on foreign pewers. Those powers oviy :IA reel the -,atne ne.":essity or fa cility of diminishing their eitabli,tiluents as this coun try; but if they were to exhaust their re soui ces, was that a sutfijent reason for our doing so? Let this country act according to her own vi,:ws of cur affairs, and independent of the conduct of foreign nations, unless when that conduct be ;Atte:iced by a manifest hostility to our immediate interests. If in the Treaties of Pacification there were 1.0 stipulati• T. for a general disarming, some one country must dis arm first.--(Hear, hear:) —And what :mitts y should set the exam ple sooner item thire_wieiclreis..most se. cure ? Wiry should we be afraid of setting such at; example ? How do we know hut that it may inure.-- diately be followed ?--(Hear, hear.)—The second general ground on which this establishment had been justified, w.s Cie great accession of foreign territory, and the implied necessity of a larger force for their defence. This, to a certain degree, could not be de nied ; but was the conclusion therefore just ? Instead of considering an acquLition of territory as a cause of an increased force, it was on many accounts the direct contrary. He instanced particularly the acquisition of St. Lucia, which, by being reduced. under our power, was thereby converted from a hostile position to one more friendly. The lonian Islands were repre sented as requiring, an additional force ; but even sup posing that they, or any Miter of our islands, were ex posed to danger, they could be defended by a compara tively sin ill force, Li consequence of the facility, 'which the command of the sea grants us, to conveys, troops to any point threatened. The third reason was founded on the state of the two British Islands, Great Britain and Ireland. The necessity of a large establishment in the former was defended on the ground of increased magazines and depots ; but even the most fanciful or panic-struck could not fear an attack from without : the proposed establishment must, therefore. be a mete waste of strength and money, which he trusted the Committee would not sanction. (Hear.) Fur Ireland, he did not think, under present ,circumstances, 25,000 men too large ; but he thought that the cause of that necessity 'should be inquired into, anti a different system pure sued for the future towards that unhappy country.— But for holding twenty-five thousand men iu Great Britain no possible necessity could be shown. On a former night his Right Honourable Friend op posite had commented on the large sums that masts of necessity, be defrayed by this country, independent of the pay of the troops; but the more it was acces sary to expend, independent of Parliament, the muse anxiously should the House watch over that part which still continued subject to their controul. He, however, could' not regard as inconsiderable even the savings that might be made in the Estimates, nor could he think with the Noble Lord who introduced , the Estimates, that if 25 or 90,000 men should be re duced, that A saving of only a 8600,000 could be at tained. Even that saving should not be lightly va lued. But could it be imagined that in Ordinaries and Extraordinaries more than a million would not be saved ? He ridiculed the idea that the country would fall from its military glory if a large establish. meat were not preserved. But while Wellingten headed a British army in those countries that lately belonged to the enemy, he thought our military cha racter could not suffer much in public estilnation.— But in deprecating the support of so large an estab lishment, he would adduce the authority of his Noble Friend, who, on a former night, stated that every foreign Court was resolved to - cultivate the relations of amity. As no power then appeared to disturb our tranquillity, it was certainly sate to reduce our mi litary establishment. He would also advance an au thority equal to that of his Noble Friend, which was that of Mr. Pitt, who, in the year 1792, brought . in his Estimates, assigning 15,700 men for Great Bri tan, for ;Mafia *bout 3000, for the Colottles 11,31.-1„ which, with some other items, made altogether f',,r• y sir thonsand men. He pronthed to hand thy E..ti mates for the present year on those of 1792, .!iceptine Ow twenty-five thousand men for Irel ritd, and includ• tha• lie•;uggened the propriety the tot d 'neve to 55 WO men, in the fol wing J!strilyitior : Great Britain, 15,700' men ; I r the CI loniet, 2.5.227; and for [:eland, 25,000 The H .acurable Member th a rgited .n length on the little necessity :That ecis:ed for a lamer force. No feign Power could att3eit this country whhout preOar 'lion. War toes not come like A hurricane. Are there not Mi. Ji,ters abroad who could apprite luti of the prepare. tioat of the enemy ? and in such a case, could out this count() proceed tt-r: Mmes as rapidly in pre p.trations-to resist ? The vittl intere,t% ttl the ceiun. try requited ec :tvqny and retr-nclment, as .a t e al was cocutistent with the at y o( the natiim ; but he not conceive that the tnnstitution was in the lea%t endangered ity a standing array, eccept as the Crown was thereby arched with a stealing and cot.- r.ipting intlaeLice, which w.hild, in time, destroy 0:e labertied ()1 the cutgary.—(HeJr, /gar.) He th.n entered int , , a brill oxaminattint t the suds Of the finances, which b•r incapable of snpp'►rtint; the expert e of :he provsed Estimates.. ['his &minded the consideration of the House, for it was not France or Austria t•►ec had :o tear, bus their internal enemies, which were silently , Jet.tresying them--a national debt, and an impt..videat expels diture-:—( arks of bear, bear).— II the tes, - ,urces cat the co►tntry %vete not saved at peseta, when war !same necessary we should enter on it iti an exhauste. 4 ditiun. If, on the other hand, we now were dent, it is impossible to imagine ►chit a spring. an energy, this country would obtain. llr trusted that the present resolution would be negatived, and that some Member there, more competent than hi riseli, would proprse an estimate that could be approved by die House. 'Lord CASTLEREAGH siid, that having bums ptevented, by indisposition, from expressing his sen timents in the previous debates whicii had taken place on this subject, and bt-ing still rather onwc.4l he Wall Anxious to t .ke the variieit opp.n-tuaity of debve , i.l his view of the Lurd,hy ;11 , 211 L. ok a complete view of tie Estimates. He beean by ex pressing leis extreme aniteey that th strishil undergo the fu:lest inv,etigetioit, in wh;cii he had been gratified by the conduct of the Gzittlemen op. posite. He must, however, say, that concitue done) alarms had been weedy ellAprited ; eye . they h id had the good effect of nairowieg the geese tion in the subs;ratutu as to whet was the grudge!. amount of the forces that are necess try. He via ready to go with the Gentlemen un the ether site., as to the cleestirm of economy ; for as the p opt: lied traced erfgely and confidently to Ministers, and lead given them the meens of bringing . the wet to a gig- •• n ous conclusinii, it was a double tut)? fill then .art to chew a nuked spirit to relieve them fr n► all possible bind:ens. He must therefore pretest eg case those Elite and unjust arguments whieh were true ()toyed to inflame the minds of the people, by nuking • them believe that such a small relief as they would expeiience in the preseet rear would he ••r no Aileen.. ee and ought to be deeesel. t'he q irso en fer cute. • aeration was, whit ivlitt could teat:) , la.: liftnlicsii veitheut breaking down the bettiess of out natters tid ' ee e et e, which, it once deal nyed, ceal.l ',fever be ffi. established ? All that he claimed from Wizen wes e that they would not stare. his Majesty's hhaiseereto be clamoured down by bold mid broedsessezeons :hat they are adverse front economy; (hear ) ioi ;le c.nid - assure the House that the diffi_ultiee that were ial. posed on Ministers in c.Aidficting, the .atits p-ace, were infinitely greater than any they has yet had to under go while conducting the war te its glorious end. —(Hear.)—Therel ore, if they Could rind the means or giving lerge mil practical reliet to the country, the House and the public might be cue& clut that it would be deem.d their an et rattiest duty to do so. Ministers were periectly aware, that it . at the present moment they wcie to take way erten:ou. view of the public revenue, they weule, in enotber year, fiad themselves under accumulated diffieitties and thus, though they might err in jteignieet, it ought to be believed that they had an in per forming their dety, though they weuld ntver he found seeking to captivate the public *opiidea by holding forth prospects which had no chance of being realized. This declaration. he trusted, w mid tend to dispel that cloud of prejudice so trujusly anti un generously raised against his Maj-sty's Goeerneieut, by endeavouring to establish a cart of case aetliust them on the ground of economy, as to what they have, or what they have net done in the present 6.,5-sion. sion. In the course of last year the House had ea taiuly confided to Ministers a greater alununt of colliery supplies 63%1 w is ever helorc ;;ranted at at.y time, or in any country. The total amount, inc.:til ing the extent oidebt, was about In niaboo, seer. flog. At thatistime it was not merely hi one, bet in almost every part of the world teat we were en gaged in war ; our prospects were ti.er,f,re 1 , ),k d to, not only as difficulties to be overcome, but, as such, the end of which c told not he lirre!ClCl— Tliese wars, however, had been all gleremsly to i ree_ nated by Treaties, which bore at least as great en appearance of permanency as any which hid been made at firmer periods ; and the alin.nt immediAte result had been that a reritietioe of the expense; :rein last year had not been less than eke niihion.. We were, from the nature of our situation, incapable of applying reduction, as a system, except by small degrees. Hew many years elapsed, after the Anse rican War, before we recovered from tote distress in which it left us? The contrast, hewever, at present was most triumphant ; we had provided for our difficulties as we went aleee„ en.; to etare he trusted we should come more rapidly to our eettkd Peace Establidirnent than we ever did bethre., It court' by no means be considered that the Peace Estehlishineut now proposed was likely to be permanent;—.here would be many reductions effected by time site cir cumstances. The Estehlishaitett tor the present year would truly cost about 29 mirlioni, instead of eigleys There could Le no presuniptila teat e;nvereite nt h .e. net accelerated every possible re.!ection is far as posiible.dt had evea be-n ells redruat h in some quarters, that tee reduction in the Navy heed too rapid. There vt as every peke to be een end the reJuctiou el the Army was going on As re pidly as possible ;.--to insinuate °tiler WISC WI4 till giving the Executive Government that credit they, .~, I •_ 1: 1 ..,1- J a , P: • I S,