Star. — London, England, 1819-12-14 00:00:00

sirothi l et { ler bY :, e rly 1 ou •v , bin tr n • :. s• - z ;. e eSe liar had L ,s be a: vA riatlC estent fr: frOin .1 t the "L. that h.ti ut J.:!:o 405 . in :nY s . 0,1 Of hi ~:e p ith • Tj the hat 1 .that ;IC t se aiilotlS " • :ion , o. ..herd. r:strit • ; cc: ut: ; •e such ..11.1 be fu lawer el, a.:crs int 1: ; 7 a. MCA th. It I:I:fC I :s!!ch .ts bouts •• WAS they is ti :es they tr xis 4 I:1 11 e.‘auce, t i sue ki item: I: e ! IS in • 'ging is for be u subject ea the 1. :dues ran:Jeri: ce is • 'atzen ie in jur • stit citti at 5,6 110% 1 t.'ah ttn :she of sla,kn thu ten: ans Cc' • • c th e ti t i:: ..1 It. ties st i •1 vast, is ng va ,u g t Lya.r, i spr• ask, if toms, it one Mc they crl rela honite .ste most c: C tat:•*ll I ula. se .1 on en try pi taunts e h Ile col 4::aso llity lleet it db , r.).tt l wo ha•ba: • ' Leta:: aw Irela f. r rnbU pp (): exc ta fur. yea )ne i3ss, iireC L:1: t F. 14 L felt :o 0 ' ...); in for S. !d It ref r, a • 1 for and ip i toh iat line :en t a • put 'funk at q ~; Ld oc :/ nl3 • • r, h ab !seen', ,; cons t ; !OS 'tights and - Magna .Chaeta were iramed?—(iter).-- The Noble Lord then proceeded to point citdifferent circumstances which existed in the year 1791 when a prototype of the present Seditious Meetings Bill was passed, and the present state of the couutry. It Was also a question with-him how far the levying oil twelve thciusand soldiers in time of peace, without consent of that House, was not an invasion, of the Bill of Rights.? The tranquillity procured far this country by force would not give security - . If the ex pression of feeling were pent up, it would be likely to burst out with greater violence at a future' period, it it did not lead to a crime which he would not name, because it was a crime foreign to the nature of Englishmen. He contended, that the -restrictions which were proposed to prevent the communication of the ideas of persons residing in different parishes were altogether unnecessary. On the whole, though the Bill had certainly received many amendments in its passage through the House, it was still a measure of which he could not approve, even for that period to which it was proposed that it should be limited. But, looking at the temper of the Government, he thought there was reason to believe that this Bill Would not expire when the five years should be at. an end. The probability was, that on some ground ' or other its renewal would always appear necessary. That this Rill was intended to produce a govern ment by arbitrary power, he would not assert ; but that it tended to take away the means of resisting ar bitrary power, no man could deny. Though he would not suppose that this was the object of Minis ters, he could not but suppose it 'impossible for them UM to see that such must be theconsequetice of pass ing it. If they would not suffer the turbulent spirit now abroad to evaporate in the expression of its grievances, they took a course which would neces sarily produce that state of things that would make it almost impossible to return to our ancient state.— Iletherefore thought this" Bill, ilk did not absolutely 'go to annihilate the libertiei of the country, would be likely to impair them most considerably—Wear). .Mr. ROBINSON said, that no man was more slow than himself to see danger in the ebullition of popular feeling. But when he looked to the state of the Country, when he in-mire i into the grounds for ap prehending the progress of a mischievous spirit in it, he felt that it was impossible to resist the belief that we were very seriously threatened with danger. • He would not look to the-state of the manufacturing dis tricts ; he would not measure the distress of any por tion of the People. in order to ascertain whence pro ceeded the causes of alarm. No, he would refer back to Lhe eventful period of the French Revolution. The extraordinary irritation of the People; the tu , multuous spirit which diaracterized this Country- at that time, neither i.riginated in, nor were fostered by the prevalence of distress, for there never was a time whe.i the commerce of the Country was in a more lout ishing state ; when trade was better encouraged, or labour better recompensed, than at the time of the French Revolution. Yet it was at this very era of prosperity and comfort, that the seeds of Revoletion were sown in this happy laird. Many remethbered its p.agress: all had witnessed how the spirit was spread abroad, and what a gigantic aspect it at last assumed hear, hear). At no period since theevent of that lievolotion.had the spirit been extinguished. • What, he would ask, Was the danger which threatened the Country now ? That danger presented itself in the avowals of the parties themselves against whom the Bill was pointed. He would refer, for instance, to the Meeting at Birmingham, where the most auda cious attack, that the most audacious Reformer could invent against the majesty of the Constitution, had taken place. Sonic, indeed, had imagined, that no notice should be taken of the proceedings of this Meeting, because they proved to be so ridir culous as to deserve no serious attention(lfear)..7- But he begged to remind Gentlemen; that at no pe riod since the French Revolution was there an Occa sion of general danger, in which there *was not an instance of the unio . of the ridiculous with the ter rific—(Hear). Bat it was not to this Meeting alone that he would refer for the manifestation of dangers. He would call the attention of the. House to the Meeting at Ilunslet Moor, the Resolutions of which were in substance the same 'as those agreed to pre viously at Birmingham. What did these Resolutions deel tie? They declared that it was the wish of the leaders at these Meetings to effect a national union of the People—to assemble an overwhelming mass of the population, with the view of agreeing to Petitions, and if they failed of success, to resort to other constitutional means for effecting their objects. What must be the idea which they entertained of the Constitution ? The Meeting at Manchester had been . often alluded to, and great stress had been laid on the circumstance that the first intention to bold a i Meeting in that town had been abandoned. But' why was it abandoned? The individual himself who. was the prime mover in all the Meetings, had dea dared, that the Meeting hod not been put ofFbecausei it was imagined by him and his party that them would be any illegality in assembling ; but, he said, because the intended Meeting was not expected to be physically able to vindicate what he called their right to meet, in case there was any opposition. The Meeting was then postponed ; and it was well known that exec tions had keen made in the mean time to enlarge the attendance of the population. All these circumstances, and the reflections naturally 'springing from them, made an image of danger in his mind, greater than any that had ever threatened the country. It was said that the present Bill invaded liberty ; but he wished to know, was there no dangerl to liberty from the continuance of such Meetings as those he had just adverted to ? Every one ac knowledged that there was. No person who had yet expressed an opinion on this subject, denied that the prevalence of these Meetings was a • very alarming evil. If the fact was their so, he wbtild ask, could there be any thing more injurious, at lease to the public right of meeting, than the ne cessity which all admitted to exist, of having these Meetings almost superintended by a military force? What, to effect, was the state to which the freedom • of the People would be reduced, if such a condition of things were once established ? That tbe. people had a right to meet, no man pretended to deny ; bat that right, like every other, was to be featrestrai ir purposes of greater general security. He Government was driven into the adoption of tbeSe measures, and however ranch he regreued the necer shy, he could not avoid giving- his decided support to thfrn. It had been said that public discontent ,aree-se. however, that , the liberty eon : tile Honourable Gentile/Iran, v4;is. not : -.. am - rights, hut the power of dis. in :he possession of them, or of exclud ether from them--(Cheers). That kind old he best represented by the bird called rd that pierced with poisonous fangs all ,-,a for its prey—(Cheers). With respect alt measure. on which the honourable so strongly animadverted, be must de his conscientious opinion, that it was ice with any of the principles of the Con ft: gave his support to it on-a knowledge of the disturbed state of the country, vany papers which had been laid on the commencement- of the Session. lie society, during the last twenty or thirty ' inderrone more material changes than itl ice the Conquest. There had been an light thrown in upon the lower orders of , a all matters in which the public interest way involved, greater than at any other :istory. He did not regard this circunal jealousy. On the contrary, he looked ' 1 obit of free, open discussion, which had I period been acquired by the Press, as an recession to that guardian of our freedom. the Press had arrived as that degree of wliieli had been well denominated the and blasphemous" Press, aiming at the e of all the good feelin g and morality of passe-, it was time to a dop t sense measure fiction— ( !leer , hear ). bayou . elute , lade the peculiar object of its play I,and 1 insidious means were put in practice, it ound that there was an under current in :lasses if the community, hastening all its ao a vortex of sedition—(Hew', hear). He an to say that those classes were not to be i ro.discuss their grievances; but he would tat subjects which invelig essential changes ,:iples of the Laws and Constitution, were s they should be called to deliberate upon. at commentators could feel that v vern. a restriction on their natural liberties, were tardy to perceive also the advan. derived from it—(llear, hear, hear).— lw of nature that those who earned their !, by daily labour, were not capable of dis ich matters, It had been truly said, that ,cnowledge was a dangerous thing ;" and ied equally. travefigion, to politics, and to li- The roan who dipped slightly into litera n danger of deserving the-appellation of a critic. If flalsourer should quit his daily rthc sake of listening to objections 4ich urged io'thedoctrines of mligion, he. Auld to becoate an infidel. If a ploughman oc- rose boors, which, .after his regular toil, devoted to the discharge of his social duties. ing over seditious writings and papers, he certainly, be likely to become a turbulent 1-1-ar, A azr). Pea the last three years it had 'tooted to bring the ordinary rights to the ii array against the Ordinary duties of the Attie. . It had. been argued that its practice: ow the aim of the Legislature to restrain ;...- -eye not interfered with in good old times. readmitted this as an argument he must be tat such things were pertniued. He must un that history had taught him. Why, these :etings were never thought of by our races al if the laws of the good old times did not sach acts, it was because such never existed. it of the old legislation was to provide new new casei--(Haar, hear, hear).—The present was stigmatised as an interference in the petitioning; but, in justice, it did ntit de. That right consisted in the power of CCPM ,:ing freely, and of expressing publicly the .'.,ls thus communicated ; and, he would-isk, pussible to be accomplished in those screech ,yling Meetings, where the speaker was un eltend his voice sufficiently, to be understood aelitieih part. of the multitude? He would : ale hundred Meetings were convened in , where the speaker might be heard ; or, if !ming of 10,000 persons were convened, when aild not possibly be heard by more than one ,:edth part, which of these two plans would be ainducive to the right of that free communi-, of sentiments ?—(hear, hear, hear). He w ouh) ~i.t ; e the honourable Gentleman (Mr. I-lutchin• )a :hat point. It was contrary to the elemen ninciples of society, that the physical force of a :ry should be let loose upon it in that manner: intended, that it was not the expression of the :tots of the People that was the object of these it,, ,, ,, but an expression of their physical force. physical power which, in the first stage from &ism to a state of society, was chained up and me a moral power, would, he was aware, OCCA. illy sliew itself in nations; but then, it was only 11. purposes of Revolution—(H ear, hear). —He I extended his observations to a greater length! - ..te had at first intended on rising to answer the ‘cio..:l of the Honourable Gentleman —(1 lenr; ';.—He again declared, that none of the Meet whica in Ireland had always taken place under 'r, would be affected by the provisions, of the u;,.!er d d MILTON said, that as much as he was in. • ti , do credit to the able and eloquent speech of , honourable and Learned Gentleman, *RI : him utter so many sentiments that weirti better calculated for the beginning of the centory than the preient period, that he was .:1 to make a few observations in reply-- ' , ea:J.—The Right Honourable Gentleman, • .:.ur,e of his speech, had said, that there was lu thrown in upon the country, that it nLc-s. ry to take . measures to diminish it— No, nu Ifro* Me Mizisterial Beaches).-- that 4, a little knowledge was a dangerous' meaning, fur the lower classes of the com • IL! meant, then, by that, that it is noces- 4 •• • f a stop to its further progress—(No, llol )- •.: 2,i1 not mean that, the Right Honourable, incsat nothing—Viper, Aear).—He eer re:,....;eti:ms were requisite. Might not . 3 1. , !.+ have been held .when Luther and '4ll the w.nk of Reformation, to dispel the ' of the middle ages? He also said, that • . List to Guy ;ears, gitater changes have, • ,\ ,aught than at art, former .period. What .3 44 "I to . tbe Perin& in which dit Dill of . a . . ought to be allowed to evaporati at these Meetings.: l4 Withdraw, * was kindly repeated Vo-'-oi the e Oa . 0154 But the spirit which evaporated from them, was a! several times. The gallery was nearly cleared,Ur heir • • pestilential spirit, fraught with poisen and death ; and Mr. SCA. RLItTI• was observe' veito rise .for the ppspot4 , . if measures of compression were not devised against ' o f addressin g the House. The Messengers, however, it, the country must, inevitably, perish under the! persisted in forcing strangers from the gallery and noxious exhalation, and, instead of handing down , closing the doors. It was understood that the liberty aad morality and justice, to our posterity, I Stamcsa countermanded the order for strangers td we should be the unhappy originators of that wretched ' withdraw, but certainly the Messengers up stairs state of society so well described by the Poet : were not aware that he did so. . " Dimness quid non inuninuit dies? Mr. SCARLETT was proceeding to speak (the " JEtas parentum pejor avis tulit " Nos nequimes, mot daturos gallery being locked, and strangers excluded), when " Progeniem vitiosiorern." • Mr. W. SMITH, though he admittedthe sting Mr. LAMBTON lose and said, that if it was in:. tended that the House to have been taken out of this Bill in a great measure, should proceed in the discus - - sion with closed doors, he should move as an Armada by the Amendments which had been made, for allow- ment to the question, that the House should forth: ing Public Meeting s to be held under cover (for the with ad j ourn. . limitation of the Bill as to time he thought of less importance), still objected to the measure. He Ott the return of strangers to the gallery, after a very short interval, the SPEAKER was explaining' tbe strongly disapproved of the powers to be given t o ground upon which the proposition of the Honour the Magistrates under this 11111. They had heard able Member could not be entertained. much of an unpaid Magistracy. He would say this Mr. SCARLETT then rose; and said , t ha t he was a narrow view of the case, and he might almost would very willingly admit, that the power of holda say that they were not unpaid. There was.a French ing, in future, such Meetings at those against uhialt story in point, that occurred to him, An old Cheva- the Bill professed to aim, ought to be taken away. that day, who was coming out at the sam e time. valier de St. Louis, on leaving the Theae, The reluctance with which Ministers p r op osed these run to pay their homage to a celebrated Actor measures to the House gave him great satisfiction; crowdbr . . 521 - as if was a proof oar sensible they were to the Ma road they made upon the liberties of the People. Hi 44 What 1" said he, g 4 and are you to be thus followed however, that he heard with different and distinguished by the Public , while no notice is would confess, taken of me? Ought you to be thus rewarded , while s a Right !ion. and Learned Gentleman n ear feeling him (Mr. Plunkett) defend them on the ground that 'l, who h ave . so long been fighting your battles, get 'nothing ia . —" Nothing !" replied the Actor, o D o y ou the were quite in the spirit of the Constitution—: Did the Constitution require that there should tall it nothing to have the power of accosting me as ( Hear). be no Meetings of SO or , 10,0(X) persons to discuss a you do?'' He with the same feeling would ask , if i t constitutional principle, or that the right bf meeting was-to be thought nothing that the Magist rates en - should be at the discretion of a single N l a g istrate joyed those powers which were confide d to them a— Hear). It this were the Constitution, he had had a Of that unpaid Magistracy, he believed the far greater ( portion of them would rather enjoy the privileges different idea of it hitherto. But he did not stand up they now enjoyed, than be turned into paid Magis. to quarrel with all the principles of this Bill ; an tiks contrary, he thought many of its enactments necessary. trates with moderate salaries. For those who did their duty in a proper manner, it was much to pose What he found fault with was, that it neut. further sess the power of doing good ; and - for those (if there than even its pioposers intendeJ. Meetings in them- were any such in the country) who sought to recom- selves, he contended, were not dangetous; they were mend themselves to the Higher Powers, they only only indications of danger to spew the spirit of the looked forward to payment tit futuro, instead of in country, and therefore, as mediums of information to presenti. He felt it to be his duty to oppose the Bill. the' GovernMent, should. not be suppressed. fig Mr. LONG. WELLESLEY.-a-lf he thought the pre- would ask, was it more prudent to suffer the noxious sent Bill went unjustly to infringe on the liberties of vapours of concealed discontent rather to fester ia the people, no motive would induce him to give it his Private, than to evaporate and he harmless. Ha 4 this Bill confined itself to the dispersion of Borough consent. He, however, could not see that it went to M a eetings, or assemblies of persons in large Manufaca had ffect a those right to co enjoy. liberties which the people curing Towns, he wouia be the last to resist. it; bat why direct it ag ainst the respectable County Kat , Mr. WILLIAMS considered th i s Bill to g o further in s , constitutionally convened—those Meetings taaat than the evil complained of warran ted them in g oin g . in the eye of the law have been always held to be Sa Had it gone no further than to prevent armed and respectable? True it was, that there was a likelihood, tunniltunos Meetings, trainings to military etercises, or Meetings to which the parses marched with flags such Meetings might become tumulttious; bat were not the laws in force quite sufficient to guard against and banners in military array, he would have given any bad conseqtkences from them? lie, for One; it his cordial support. When it was said, that it did not infringe the rights of the p eo p le b y confining could not possibly be alarmed at their frequency: then . ' within the lima; of their own parish, if dig- There seemed, however; to prevail a g ood deal of posed to petition. he would gate a case to refute the panic aaci alarm amongst Gentlemen cat this subject; assertion; he knew a case whet* the latallord- who and what was not a little rem a rkable, more amon g st tceive4, and . .the (*Mier who paid rent, formed all those who were most remote from the scene of the the population of the parish. Hewished to know how disordeta. Whil.t the Members of these districts we'!" they, being forbtdilen to attend a Meeting in another keeping back, Gentlemen of the \Vest laboured Oder parlib a were to: erterciie the right of pefitioning?— great anxiety ; and even the ister Kingdom, which was always held up by the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) StaOnf as this case was, he could adduce cases still stronger. He hoped the subject would be se.consi. to be so peaceable, on this occasion furnished the most steady . sopporters of the new measures—(llearl. dereci, and implored Ministers to sympathize with _ But oh, these Irish Gentlemen, forsooth !arc ansiopt the sorrows of the People, and to abstain from resist ing motions that it was not pretended were impro- to save the remaining liberties of this country. Ital, per, but which could only be objected to because did they propose to do it ?-Was it by putting it s r the power of a single Magistrate, who at best was iio they were said robe brought forward in the spirit of mote than a man, to disperse a Meeting- converted party. By an inquiry, he believed, a great portion existi under the authority of the High Sheriff, and in every of the respect Censtitutional ? Now , l et u s see ho w far th i s Rived that tng distress might be got rid of. He be- o encourage emigiation was unne cessar y , is he was con fi dent that the country contained within Itself the means of beneficially employing the whole P a its population. lie wished to see a moderate and power would look, by the test of applicability, to for that Body) full of prejudices and . politics of his P ractice. Here was a Magistrate (with . great respect . own. A Meetin is about to be ,convened, which - rational Reform effected, and this done, the whole .happens not to g plice in eraetly with his notion a . u nt,y_would. look tip to that House with respect things. He is not content as a politician to be passive and veneration as to the best guardian of its - best s*and dearest interests. • on th he M e occasion—ust prevent the Meeting being right LorcaMOßPETlkconfessed , that from all t he in.. held. An easy course is Peen t o him—he ne e ds onl y ' formation he had been able to o btain on the subject, go,pretend there is some one there who ought flat tat be t here, proclaim it an unlawful assembly , and slap he was 1;4 to conclude that the M e e tin g s which had at: over and above twelve persons, who lately been held disgraced and distressed the menu- ject every o after the proclamation, to transportation for facturing Li ; Arias ; .and . he was compell ed most re- remaill luctantly to, believe, that if not repie ss e d b y le g isla- seven years k All this, too, in regard to a al eet i h g a t Lion, they must be put down by the strong arm of which a High Sheriff may preside; and what made it still more unjust, not for any act of their ov.ii, but the civil power, aided perhaps by a military force. of an individual, over whom they had no controul-- He could have wished th at it had not been through necessity that the Bill shoUld continue in force so long (Hear, hear). Was this the.doctrine the Right Hon. as five years. but still, under the peculiar circum- Gentleman (Mr. Plunkett) would contend for ? He would go a step further, and state a stronger stance* of the court. lie .felt himself bound to vote in case, not at all out of the t each of „ p robabi l it y .— its tirour.' The _ err Qt the discontented was; that they - ;voirld have 'the Coastitticipn, the *hol Consti. Suppose a Magistrate employed a person, he would • • A nn ual not call him a spy, to attend the Meeting. A copy aption, aotlaaptbinglnit tha Constitution ; an . parli w ucs ,ima 1./aiieral SOffrage were, according .holder, for instance, who, whatever property lie to them v esaential . parts of 'die Constitution. They. might have, not being a resident, was not qualified declared that they ' wpilld . consider their -rights td be to• attend. A proposition i; made, - which lte , (the Magistrate) does not like; he makes proelamatioa withheld, and their wrongs to 'rill:tail; unredressed. give the name of the person iihorn to dispersg—tlie .Igeeting refuse—he declines, as be till .theie concessions were made; and they added, ' that it was to theniselves that they must look for re. is not obliged , to dress, which they felt they possessed sinple nit-arts of heauspects of aeina there, 'proalamatioe is made a second time, and in consequence of this Mais'o caprice securing: He aesctibed the arts' by which it was or malevolence, all who remain afterward;- are sub , atteroged to inDime, and contended the present though it was measure,said to infringe the liberty of jec ted to such dreadful punish m ent—( Ho a r, hoar); the Subject, was necessary tei previa a greater in- . I.t was not even necessary to resort to this,l* a Ma gistrate might go to a Meeting, and take his chance friiigement on the liberty of' ► the People*(26— ' Mr. Burke had described true liberty to be Connected with order, a and so connected that it could not at Of proclaiming that strangers shoula withdraw, trust ing in the end to find some one or. other. there, who I-exiii Without it." He did not suppose that the was not a freeholder. Was this the fteedom of Eng lishmen, thus to place the lives and liberties of so many • . rt . , and the order of Which Mt:. Burke spoke were to be form& in those proCtisions, marching in mill" taryhim; Whicb had been seen advancing to Meet tugs like that - of Manchester . But it was said that at the di eresion of one man? He observed, however, there was an!xception in favour of Meetings in rooms{ A wise proviston,(orsemth. All parties seemed agreed ilstead of measures like those now prisposed, conci: that there were discontents amongst the People.— laation ought to be tried. Vie had yet 'to learn why measures of concOlation could not be resorted to p Then . it was better to suffer them to talk over them in rivate.free from the inspection of any Magistrates, be and that. Government should know nothing at . all of after these Bills had pissed, a - -- contended, really the mote the duty of dov, ' tuna an ear to their iglu w had not been carried. do all in their power People, and endeavour, with South America, industry. At present the protection which they able, quiet, ntelostrious, poptilation-..-to ritietle • principled demagogue's. uphold the -Coristitetion , The question .Wari then a. Member appearing -deatrons i I I I I i: I 1... ..,, 1 ' ' 1. I ' 1 _..... i .171 :.J i I .: .i i I . .'i • 1 IV s 1 ii .i : . I ' 1 1 . ' . . . . 1 h I e '..' , . • I k . VI i . i : . .!, . , . I, . ... , , , ~. . ~, ~ ~, . ( ~ : , . psse and it would perhaps be and tnasmovvr ..... ‘... ---- . - )f Government and of that House the mutter, He contended, that if there was•seallY l i eir complaints, than if such laws any Idanger at all, it was better to suppress the right to meet altogether, than by confining it to narrow •.: ed. He hoped they would then t I , 'er to , relieve the distress of the bounds make the force of it stronger—Wear; heir). There was another clause to which he begged the at.; our, by improving our crinnection ' . :a, to And new markets for, theit: tentiPb a the Bowe. t h at was the clause praaibit- • • I . :nt it was their duty to remember ing Meetings for the purpose of discussing . any thing i. h they owed to the loyal, peace- connected whb trade, manufisctitress or professions. ' 1 This latter provision, he observed,, was made in she ions, and •unrepining part of tiui :tie them from thV grasp of an. Committee, as -the clause Originalfy m 4 d f )Was only gues s io vindicate our religion, :loci against tits discussion of subjects of public grienoi;c9; • I seson, % Nor Itt wpiiid risk, what woud, !,11e cnOsecps . ent . d . st then loisdly called for, and'iko -a a.ffeatber yniutiqg -4 number ak a S -desirous so speaks the 'AI Of KA* Ctox urn !Gal,. o r A 200445 t about . . • . • . , i.~ . ..•