Star. — London, England, 1816-05-23 00:00:00

Fir E Knerrenaitts., Mr. A. -- _ • R. BUT DOI 3.. Mr. Leinteilint;son rithir: riam e ure id e m e mbers participattd, afser whiett the . j4intairdreidtd, • *boa the nemben were-- • Per the Amendment, 40—.10tetnst h, 111-ipAlajorliy sedn't tbe Nin, itt Mr. MEtLISH presented a Petition from, the 'Pro...icemen and Housekeepers of Westmiaster, and certain Shopkeepers west nt . Temple bar, signed by .1,500 persons, against the Vassar Establie ments , ffaying the House to take this sutiestioto its most .;serious consideration.—Orkleted to he on the table. Mr M. A. TAYLOR presented a Petition front, certain persons confined in the Fleet Prison fir eon tempt, who had been detained these for t"o , five, seven, and from serest to thirty years. praying relief. He begged to say, no blame was imputed to any of the Courts under whose process these persons were confined ; but he thought the House would be rt opinion thecae' of these unfortunate individuals, who: .could not take the benefit of any Insokeent Act. served its most serious attention. . Sir S ROMILLY oh t setved, his Honourable must be aware he had brought in a Bill which. prosicfed that debtors in confinement, on giving up' plLthey possesoad, might claim the benefit of the Act; fame particular cases only excepted.. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR wars sensible of the humane intentions with which that Dill bad been brought is, .but he conceived it slid not meet the case the per. sons whose Petition' he bad presented. Th e cases of et.me of the individuals be ligd had it in comemplo tion to submit to the consideration of his Uonourable mid Leotard Friend. the Petition was ordered to lie an the table. •• A Patition vris presented from the §hoemabers so others concerned* in the Leather Trade, of 141iresysbuty, praying the repeal ot.the Leather Tas Ordered to he referred to the Committee. • Mr. HALFORD brought in a Bill s for regulating the Penitentiary ft , r the reception of convicts on Mill llaink: The Bill was read a first * pod Ordered to be. feid a second time on Monday. Mr.COUR:rNEY moved tor leave to bring in a or erecting a Court or Courts for the better ae s_ommbdation of the Court of.Chaocery.--Leaie was 'alien to bring in the Bill. „ Mr. KINGSTON, from the Directors of the E Ist radio Company, presented accounts of the amount and produce ot, the sales of the Company. and copies Eif certain Resolutions of the Court of Directors re. Ltive to rho; granting of pensions.—Ordered to lie on the table. MUM Mr. NEWMAN presented Petitions from the Pa. ri r bhes of South Ockendon, Bulpitaii, and Upminster, in Essex, complaining of the rievances arising from the present Tithe Syitenn. the Petition from South Ozkendon complained in particular of the hardship Of setting cut the whole of. the tenth day's milk of a herd of cows, as h'giily injurious to the pullic, as ihe e..lves thereby wantoi nourishment for 36 hours, and Many died in consequence, while the very hay upon which the cows were ted, had been tithed' for five or six months of the year previous. The Petition also at ited, that where an agistment tithe was paid at Michaelmas on b4rren' cows, the tenth calf was de. minded on such as unexpectedly produced calves, whit' b the. Petitioners contended was paying a double Tithe. The Petitions, after enumerating sr variety of other gelavances, concluded by stating that in &loth Ockendon and various other adjoining parishes, the poor cottager: who were esempted from parish rates, were required to render the tenth of their pota tees, the tenth pig, and the tenth gosling. (Thar, hear.) The Hon. Member then briefly set forth the ineonve nia'nene of the present system of etillectipg Tithes in kind f and concluded by moving for the appoint. stem of a Select Committee to take into considera tion the Petitions on the table relative to Tithew, to consider of the expediency of substituting:payment of Tithes in money, for payments in kind, for a period. dia*be limited. . . • Mr. CU RWEN seconded the motion. Hevensi dkred the commutation of Tithes soggesiett. is the motion would be productive of most important bents its to the country. Lie had never met with any per gola in the least acquainted with the state of akricid ture who bad not considered the present system one which it would be most desirable to rsfotm. Were the change recommended to take place, he did not think less would be paid for Tithes than was paid at'pee+ sent; but the feelings of the parties interested in this qoestion world be spared that irritation to which they were now exposed ; and this of itself would be no knell advantage to the country. Viers never was a time when it was more necessary to encourage the cultivator of the soil, and the impoitance of adopting aseasures that would have such a tendency mint be obvious to every one who considered the enormous ' debt the country had to sustain, and the state of kV ;agreeing population. Feeling that every possible encouragement ought to be given, under existing cir. ensestances, to the cultivation of the soil, he gave the motion of his Honourable Friend his warmest sup port. and should be happy to see it lead to the adv. 11011 of some general CetAtitie to correct the evil which 11146 at present the subject of complaint. Mr. SMITH (of Cambridge) held the right of the . Clergy to the Tithes set apart tor their rhaintenance to be as sacred as that of any Gentleman to his free hold. He was of opinion, that instead of referrieg deconsideration of this subject to any Committee, it would be bitter to submit it to the collected wisdom of the House, and to adopt the Usual mode of moving dot leave to bring in a Bel, to make those altzations *filch might be thought expedient. - Mr. ROSE waswas of opinion nothing would be more likely to excite a general alarm in the country, than the appointment of a Committee to inquire into this subject, if their deliberations were not directed to some particular point or object. He was against , giving a Committee those general powers which were c a lled for by the present motion. Mr. ,BRAND, when he considered the admitted, impeetanee of this question, than which one dt grafter magnitude could hardly be brought before the House, end when he looked at the unhappy differences which disturbed many parishes under cite present 'System, though; it would be infinitely to be regretted, it the present motion should be negatived without some in tirailtiOS being given by the House, of an intention to taire op . the subject ill *lusher way, at-no distant coded. - 'hoo aqto siona takaidly to sack a asap • Atnei.dmenr, liiii it dleakt be read a eldriftliie'en tbst day 4 Menthe. '. A diire.sloit ensued, to which Mr. H. 'viatica. M. NAL Fir E Knerettairt.t.. Mr. A. WitictiT, Mr Toteldarlia. S wards tion of k the cow people . increased he frosted _ debate ipan Majesty's Ministers to consider of the practicability of bringing forward awn. .generik and comprehen sive tneasure on the subject. • • Mr. SMITH explained. • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER felt all the importance of the subject now tinder the consideration of thesHotese. •He was • aware of the embarrassments now complained of under the existing system, and of the more than common anzictr w;th which any change in those laws was regarded esicis had sn long continued in force-from year to year, and he might say from age to age. He was far from wishing to appeir desirous of . throwing any obstacle in the way of effecting an amicable adjustment of .the difFerenceii which at present subsisted betwein the Clergy and the cultivators of the soil. He, on the contrary, was of opinion the 'time of Parliament: could not be better employed than in acting as medi ator and arbitrator between the parties, thotigh fir . was . far from eotettaining any very sanguine elem.. tation that • ttie phkct in view—an amicable adjust-, meat, would &likely to be attained by agreeiv to the present motion. He, in fact, most feel diffident, of any remedy that might be suggested, when he recollected how many had been brooght forward at different periods, all of .which had failed. He should: move as amendment 'to the motion, and after the. first pan of it . , ,ropose to substitute words tor what followed to direct the viristriiiter to iainire into• the expediency of enabling .the proprietors of tithes to grant eases thereof, miner due regulate.iesb,” Hr *icily set forth die reasons which ..ccurred to him in . &tour of pursuing such a mete. wh els he consider-. ea would secure the property of the Church, and would have th • ifect, where the proprietor of the• land let it to an , sccopier tithe-rree, of causing a pro. porticnate advance on the rent, and would rather scent to snake a ch• Age i.s the proprietary of the land, than to give any immediate advantage to the occupier. He then moved his amenJment. Sir W. scarf. hoped the proposition of his Right Hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exche quer) would tend to allay that dissatisfaction which bad been onjustly excited ms the subject of tithes' and for that reason, and that alone, should give it his vote. He had read with astonishment some of those publications or. this subject, which had the sanction of respectable names, and which had even' received premiums from Public Boards, and had thought them most contemptible, as well for the misrepresentations of fact'. which they coeitaiwd, as for their resuming, if the term might be applied to such a composition. The publica.ion of Mr. Mid dleton on a Survey of Middlesex, and a work which had been rewarded with a premium from a provice ad Society for Vnenuraging Agricoltuet in Bath and in the West of England, he mentioned as enuing uncle' this diocription. He pronounced an animated pane. grit on the Clergy of England, and contended it was proved from the proceedings in the Courts of Justice, that in cases where disputes out the subject of tithes arose, that the fault lay generally not with the Clergy, but with those who resisted payment of the tithes demanded, thoagh that'there might not be 'acme exceptions he did not presume to say. The proposition of the Honoerable Gentleman to refer this subject generally to a Committee, was virtually to propose to open a :bop, or. as the more fashion. able term was, a bazaar, for the reception of all the charges that avarice, malice, or • disappointment might be disposed to bring into it against the Clergy , If such an establishment were formal, he would leave the House to judge what would be the probable consequence. Ile motion went, in substance, to recommend that the Clergy should be deprived of the right of collecting their tithes in kind. This he objected to, as tending to remove them from that solid ground on which they had stood frotn memorial. In giving his consent, as he did rather reluctantly, to the motion as amended by the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, he held it to be a subject which deserved the most serious consideration. and he assented to it only in the hope that it might pos. sibly tend to vanquish those feelings, ea as he should rather say, those prejudices which - had unfortunately existed. Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, it he could for in instant imagine there was any intention of in. vading the rights and property of the Church, and of the possessors of Tithes, be should instantly and strongly oppose k; bald it was merely intended to enquire how rights dad privileges belonging to cer tain individuals might be best exercised for their own advantage mad for the advantage of the Public, then he should consider it is a proper subject of Par liamentary enquiry. Fur himself, however, he saw many insurmountable abstieles to the establishment of a fixed commutation ; he did not perceive how it could be done- without injustice to both pasties at different times. If, however, .tbe , enquiry of the Committee was to be limited to -the expediency or inexpediency, the possibility or impossibility, of allowing or empowering the proprietors of Tytbes to grant lases, he would not oppose the appointment ,of such a Committee:' Mr. W. WYNNE saw nn objection to the motion 'of his Hon. Friend, as it stood, .originally tbat could not be obtained, however, he thought conside rable advantajo would arise ,from the adoption ptn posed in the amendment. Mr. WETHEKALL was aping the motion. . Mr. - BROUGIIAM wished at to be understood, that nothing 'could be 'further from the intention of himsdif and his Hon. Friends than to attempt to question the right of the Clergy to their tythes. The Church had a right to one-tenth of the produce of the soil u absolute and inviohne as the right of the pro f pfietor of the land to the mint vine -tents. All that' they urged waa,-that some reguntieds should take place.s and that the Church should not cladis one. tenth pf the capital laid out upon the laird, as .well as' one-tenth of the prodice. This had latish held right'', .by our ancestors ; who, in the reign of Edataard a time when no very lice modes of thinking existed as regarded the rights of the Chutich:--the Laity seisetrthe Church's rents of all lands previously. bar ren upon which capital was, for chit 'kit time then, upuwkd, and Since that -dorm madder had bees' 14 .4 onosoptad from trio. Tits Hum TassOuss,..aiii• . which tad barn *red in Scut the aye eras itirmitly bought up, and made of a stationary value t i none year, and 'few above dISOO; so that Pere no . very rich incumbents, as in heithet %were there any paupers set up in as, to its diserace, was the case in this country. He did not mention this circumstance as meaning to Say the same course could he adopted in this conntri. He was aware such a course would 'be called ' an invasion of Church property. • He only mentioned it to shew that there was not the d.inger apprehended in touching these *subjects.— Tne Honourable Gentleman stated a case in which al mutual accommodation-had taken place between thi. clergynsareOf a psrish in one 4 the counties and his. parishioners, under the last Tithe Act ; and a eels• taro sons was • Settled on him' in lieu of his tithes in, kind. He recommended the adoption of a Bill to take away the commutation of tithes, and where an estate in lieu was vested in the clergyman, that the successr should take that estate wh.cli would• settle; the questian of commutation for ever. A variety oft means he conceived should be laid down for settling the differences, not compulsory, bat amicably. in such a manner as that the ,interests; of the Church should not be dis'urbed, nor the property of indivi deals *led. His object in such a Bill being to pre. Tent all squabbles in the different parishes through out the kingdom. With respect tie the income of the Church, it was said there were 10,700 living, in the kingdom, the overage revenue from each being 5100 . per annum. This would give about 1.000,000.-!- But suppose it was £2,000,000, that sum could amount to more than a tenth of the real claim of thei Church on the proprietari .of the kingdom. Event this sum was obtained at the expense of so much dis= pate and squabble between the Pastor and Ms flocks; that it must be desirable to avoid such proceedings im future; and therefore it would be better to avoid liti4 Ration. by some modification of t. e present laws., With respect to the present motion he felt a prejudice! supposing nothing was to arise out of it. We could not agree with his Riebt Honourable Friend (Sir! W. Scott). that the operation of the measure upon. the agricultural tithes would lead to perpetual litiga tion among the *Clergymen and their parishiouers ; on the contrary, he thought it would tend to encou• rage the laying out of capital on land, which cense. fluently must benefit the Church. He observed.that hops were nut taken in kind ; a composition of some,. where about 20s. or 30s. an acre was allowed in lieu.' The more lie considered the subject, the more he wits' convinced it was full time for the House to interfere, and settle the question, for the. betiefit of all parties.' Mr. PEEL hoped the beialts of this measure would be extended to the Sistei Kingdom by a corn.. mutation of Tythes. They were an alleged cause of. complaint; and as the Protestant Churches of the two kingdoms were recognized under the 6th Article of the Union as one, the Judges of the United Empire were bound to uphold the law on the subject. The Right Honourable Gentleman noticed the various opinions which lad gone forth in Ireland in respect to alleviating the grievances of the lower order on the subject of l'ythes ; and suggested.. that some ar rangement should be made for making them sausiled that the imposition ut 'l'ythes was not a grievous bur then, but a measure of arkt justice between them mid their Pastors. Mr. H SUMNER observed, that the system of Tythesbad long been an object of his consideration, and he thought this the proper time for endeavouring to remove the grievance. He felt infinite ciisappoint ment in the measure now sugeested, because the powers proposed to be given to the Committee sere not ample enough. He would rather have sent the Petitions to a Commi‘tee of the whole House, and then, if any complaint required further elucidation, would have sent the inquiry to a Select Conditittee. He neatived both the Committee and the amendment. Simi. PARNELL having presented certain Pe titions from Ireland against the present Tyl6 System e , had intended to introduce a Bill on the subject, in the course of the ensuing week. The present proposition would afford relief to fat as it went. but something more was necessary to remove the grievance, which was very heavy on the lower orderh who are occu piers of s they not holding leases, 'could not, under this proposition, enter into contracts with their Landlords. The Honoureble Baronet was of opi nion that some well digested plan, io the shape of a Bill, would be better for the iuterests of all parties. Mr. D. BROWNE enforced the necessity for some alterition in the Tythe system of Ireland, which Was one otthe greatest evils of 'that country ; it was neither satisfactory to the Clergy nor the people.— He contended, that the adjustment of Tytbes was a part of the-understanding at the tialeof.the Union. Lord MILTON, in respect to the propositions which, some entertained for a commutation of tythes,• land, as an equivalent, was stated. to be a desirable mode of commutation. But of the propriety of this he bad strong doubts, it led the Clergyrnag trorn,hir proper duties. He objected to the Tythe in respect to minerals, which did not affect the profits ot the occupier, but the capital—a proceeding • which the Legislature never einitcuiplated. A great portion ot the Tythea were in the hands of persons who did no duty tor their Tythes r be suggested to call on the lay impropriatore end- ecclesiastical ones, also; to afford a betteretipend to the Vicars holding under them. Noble Lord did nor approve -of the amendment, and wished the House rather to-have adopted the nsetion of the Hon. Gentteesan. • igtr. L. FOSTER. denied that the Church of Ire. had were entitied-to be charged with running counter to the inclinations . of the people. Hi defended the Mode of keying Tythes on the products of that country. For turnips no Tythe was demanded and tor bay only 4s.san . acre. He knew a Clergyman in Ireland, who had proposed to set his Tythes at 2s. per acre; but, instead of accepting the proposal, the parisltiotters entered into a combination. and seceded kom his Church. The Honourable Gentleman stated, that there was this difficulty in respect' to Tythes twe-thirds belonged to the, :Church;. the other third was the property of lay im. prokieson ; and to meddle with the interests ,of the, !tatter desiription would be matter Al unrch.cosit- s , • Plezit7. • - • ••• Sir J. S,ZWisOILT aritooteledge,ll.hit jkt torms: of the amendment were autroir ; yet it the result of . , Cousinittee was a measure which enkibied der to make e leases with the.tiffiepayer k It would beariciail # .4retsumisraoiogea .16014451 1 .,i , _ c. • . - I ' iittittlifi. ireitai the - 1 1.-brit • .hi /1 41, : u tittsiosfilse_ to' • fol Is tlin Clergy._ l'bey t milliliter& ad* latif 'Where thif of a elifelas TAW . sroild napinii the incepts or the trititis were •ommunity, and have . the effect of teaching the under £2OO a 1 de to look en die Religious gatablishments with though there w lased veneration. If the motion were rejected. this country, be listed the debate raised upon It Would lead his the pulpit, as, 1 . .. , . . . • f r om t i e *nal.% of the tenant ss to his Ivir ft ; for a course of years: He stated in proof if thi t im,. had taken piece in the parish where he resided.,: there was e lease of the tubes for 2l y ears at I ei rate, and there bad been no disturbance sinet r i ] veiling to what had been said of the Irish (i nt , he rated that, to his knowledge, when Mr. Wickh:,' *as Under-secretary. an abominable troll: wa if ; 'tied on by many Clergymen —that fi elehAng:rj, their livings, in order to avoid the agreement k, ' leases which they had entered into, and mak e mil i 'ones more advantageous to themselves. H e kr", his i instance where a ClergYinan had threatened I' ' i l f.. rishionerS, tisk if they did not add £ 2 O O a y ear t n` & ,; incouie, he would exchange his li v i ng, and 4 7 'would be compelled to pay more to the new • ? bent. 'A law compelling the grant of leases forte Mould prevent any abuses of this kind. A greatp would be gained by going so far ; for in Ireland N was not so mush the quantum as the mode in whip tithes were collected, that was the grievauce g o t. plained of. • • C o l one l WOOD wished to say something nn' elk subject, because he lived in a part•of the ceunto where the ;rople were. very much alive to i t . H e agreed with a Noble Lord (Milton) that there wer e great objections to making the clergy large 6 4 4 : dews and farmers. He was friendly to the amend. pent, because. it the extensive subject of cornainti. non were entered into, nothing would lie dent the session. The best and shortest OM, her the pe • would be to authorise the granting of leases for 21 years : the leases should be granted to the cram s n i " land, not to the occupiers. ' . 1 Mr. PRES'T'ON' thou& that the motinn-didet go far enough, and that a snore extensive men ought to be adopted. He had no hesitation in sayi l that the March did not at this moment receive nee. fourth of its actual right. He was no inconsiderabl e proprietor pf land, and having devoted above twenty years of hit lite to the consideration of thi s su bj ect , he felt . himielf authosised to state, that the elegy ought not to is permitted to act as they had dote, because it vies altogether in opposi.i•in to their ic. terrsts. He did not desire to argue this cpestion s% a mere lawyer—hrowould throw aside ail sp ec i a l pleading and casuistry on the subject, and speak in ' the plain unsophisticated langwige of A country gee. I tliman (Hear. ) The established Church had at all times found in him a warm and sincere siippart ec of its riolith• and he should be always proud to Aetna ledge himself one of its disciples. Mr. SMY.fli said a tew words in favour of the Committee. Mr. NEWMAN shortly replied, when the origisal motion was negatived. and the amendment carried without a division. JLLIOIT DLIT' LAM V. Mr. SHAW presented a Petition from the Li. tensed Distillers of the City of Dublin, praying for efficient measures to put a stop to 'illicit distillation; and praying tor a reduction of the duties on spirits. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, that the tiNortlett which prevailed in Ireland chiefly arose not of the constant use of ardent spirits. In certain districts of Ireland wi:ere breiverif4 had been encouraged, and !at a tiint when distillation was not permitted, the Imorals anu health of the people were improved, and disturbances and mortality had decreased. tie wish. ed that tile Landlcrds of Ireland would assist the Revenue Officers in sup;sorsing the laws, inueAd of combining to evade them, and to encour.ge u.,lassful distillation, as was done in the North of Ireland, Inca the purpose of obtaining -increased -rents for their lands, by assisting tlt tenants in abontinable prac tices [bat enabled them to make large sums ut money,' and at the Lune Aime spread immorality and vice .over the country. Mr. V. FIrLGERA GD said, it Was his intuitive to adhere to the laws still ire iliteratiort. Sir J. STEwmur declared, that the imputation of the Right Hon. Baronet against the Ciseutlemen of 'the of Ireland was 'the most'unfounded that ord. came from any men; If was an ;Alsatian anode •in gross. 'lstiar.)—SO•far. trbfiteneourazing UnlawfulArsiillarrion, the Gentle . ; oven of the North'ef Ireland . lied expoled their hUs :in fruitless attempts to pot it down. He declared the .people there were at whet- al'eyer they had been, althcleigh lignolr was. Uncommonly choap. Sir•JOHN NEWPORT, in -reply, quoted a letter from a Gentleman in the North of Ireland, ihwhich were these Words.—“ Yon try •in yam to put down illicit distilleries; for if they were put dawn, how could 'we receive the large rents that are now paid to ns ?" .Mr. STEWART denied the assertion of the Right Hon. Baronet, respecting the Gentlemen of the North of Ireland. He declared it . was not in their power to prevent the distillation alluded to.— He himself,for instance, lived in a parish which was 14 miles long and seven broad. There were only two or three Gentlemen besides himself residiog in the parish ; .11 the other landowners being absentees; whose estates were managed by ablentepavits.— (4 laugh;.)--He was the only' Magistrate in the pa. ' rish, and it was impossible for him to put a stop to the private stills.' • General NrAmcw said he was•not sufficiently acquainted with the practices in the North of Ireland :o say how' far the gentlemen encouraged private stills; but he knew very well that it was a commoi; practice in the South. The Chanceller el the tr• chequer for Ireland knew as well- as he Ad, the p.c. Lice preiailed in the county of Clare, his own c ounty,. and from that toicfflaltie, all along the hanks of th e Shannon, as welt as Innisowen. In all thew pl ores the landlords constantly assisted the illicit distillation, because they alfbOught theit liquor from the putiresp. (Alasigh.):.-se V say," continued he, " that most of the gentlemen in the South, and all those along the ibanke of the Shannon, buy the inatevi. Perhaps you do not understand this s /Wiens is the Iri,b w o rd tor a small . piot hin pots the people &oil their setislters and free Meat the liquor takes its name." When one !Ma to it gentleman's iniUse, he was always asked wheibir he would have t wear or whiskey, and be 1 1 atilt preferred `tale former, 'as being the best liquor. tilreti.llsfinlensen : of 'the highest rank give it the pre ,l,,ord Manners, the present Lord Cna.ncel. ;lot onteland, wa* et) fond of prawn, that, 'when he . Iran. at Lord Abettors's, he o end& drink nothiag helonsidtted it to be the best diuretic in the iaegh).-There was only one win 0 1 . wlsicb illicit distillation in Ireland could be put itu optlo, mad 'that was by st,Tising the.MetsoarY . , 0 ti . /ii bi sa br sa I d d 'II