Star. — London, England, 1816-04-06 00:00:00

. is . . _ . , „, . • , , _ . .. . . gat time or 2 prolser munition o f ti nge Loa PAT.llll2fOrtillti . tflooght tflat the Hon. info 4, 4 ) c lasses, as ought ta be the custom , they were Geollemares ohiectiona wield be more- properly brought forward in the Committee. The Honourable ;„„ lea ted into six or seven. This he tlkraght fiery g po per, as from such an indiscriminate mixture Gentleman compared the charge of the Staff at pre sent with that of 1802 ; but the real question to be ;here could be no great improvement of morals or of cons; habits eipected. The health of those unfortunate considered was, whether the'lt would be noSta at present was too col ons must suffer from their bein g crowded toge- large or not ? use to state the redue -40. To this he could speak from his own experi- titans that it might be found po ss ible t o ma k e till th e y lace. Government co u ld no t d ec id e on t he l eact , as he had been d own at Sheerness, with an H„mu tookpo fable Friend of his, last summer,. 'and h cal reductions that might he made till it had received b a d seen sixty or' seventy of them crowded toge. reports of the different Generals serving on the st s of, without any discrimination, into one gang. tions. There would many reductions take piaci in There were but nine bad, or incorrigible men said t the course of the year, which could not at present be be amongst them ; and for nine bad, it was rathe stated'. The Hon. Gentleman surely could not sew that four or five hundred should be punished i think that a charge of the Staff a t p resen t s hould be ushese. mere a proper classification, the ship shoo! no more than it W3S in 1802. He would state s one be divided into forty compartments,instead of six fly, instance, which would shew the Right Hon. Gentle. seve n, as now the case. He should beg leave to call titan how mistaken he was, if he conceived any such s h e at i t atioa of the House to another point, wli notion. In 1802 there were but three Surgeons of he cons id e red of much importance. It was highl , Hospitals in the West Indies. Did the Honourable wr y that there should be accurate accounts kept' Gentleman conceive that the health of our troops in dat convicts and their earning. 'Chose kept atl that quarter should be entrusted to three Surgeons et resent w ere very unsatisfactory. Thee Honourable Hospitals ? Did not hr perceive what an increase of rese nt were then went into details of /he employment :tall was necessary in this instance ? With regard ittne convicts and of what might be their earning. to the Staff at Head-quarters, he would insist that Its muted that 'there would be accurate accouns the Commander in Chief had nothing mord than was i e pt i n future, as from theft ) an estimation might k necessar y ; but he would be p re p ared to enter into f ood et the comparative benefits of transportation, all the details, and into a defence of them in the s i a em ployment at home of convicts. As for tram. Committee, when the business would be properly be ' a, he should only say that, besides the ex. fore the Home. - attending the transportation, the expense of Mr. TIERNEY observed, that in the Committee t h e convicts back after the term of their they could dinatnish the sum, but not the officers ; petite . a bsent was expired, could nut but be very cx -110.61 ; while leaving them in the colony against r d ik e b o ice mould be ',cry unjust. But, if the estah ent of the hulks were properly attended to, and e osins were employed in them instead of being great saving, and prove ru nsported, it would be a 404 beneficial as well to the country as to the con. tit"' themselves. He therefore requested his Right Roo. reieod to tern his attention to this subject, and- 1 mast tbOse ienprovements to which he had alluded, to be carried into effect. Mr. H. ADDINGTON could not judge of the impsovecnents which the nee. Gentleman ( Mr. Bas set) who spoke first on the subject roold wish for, tillbe b;ought them forwar d . If he was hostile to the entire system of transportation, he could being in sbill to effect his purpose ; but till he should take thestep be could not see how passing the present bill for in years could be injurious, as, if the Honuura. *Gentleman's measure should meet the approha. eon of the House, this Bill could be repealed. Here the Honourable Gentleman repeated. his observations of night on this subject, and said, that the Subject had engaged much of his time and attention. . With regard to the observations of his Honourable Fried (Mr. Holford) who had spoken List, he al. lowedtbere was much in them worthy of attention. Many of the suggestions contained in the Report on tritons had been adopted in the hulks, and there sere divisions making in most of them. With re spect to the morals and conduct of the convicts there vas much attention paid to their improvement, and selection of those who were most meritorious ill this taped was made. Theo? was also the beginning of 'system of classification entered on, and steps were is actual progress for the best employment of the convicts, while accounts of their earnings would be kept with more strict regularity. There were ships o the river prepared for the reception of three bun. ltd of them, and he trusted that his Honourable friebd would not loag find any thing to be complained elm this subject. Mr. HOLIFOOD and Mr.H.ADDINOToN mutually ex- Sisal, when the Bill was read a second time, and wired to be-committed on Monday next. Mr: TIERNEY asked a question with regard to &accounts and correspondence of the Lord Chain• i belie and Lord Steward. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that if what was • ed was not satisfactory to the Right Honour. the Gentleman,'he could makla motion for farther lion on the subject. Alter a few farther words from Mr. TIERNZY and • CASTLEREAGH, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER id, that there never was any account of clothing in ash Mr. TIERNEY said, that the account of clothing "tht to be given, as it would swell the account of but it the officers were not diminished, it was folly to think of diminishing the snm, as•the officers must be paid. The Noble Lord had given no answer to his Honourable Friend, for it sea. no answer to ask the House whether there should be no increase in the charge for the Staff ? His Hon curable Friend had not said that there should be no increase ; but he said that there should not be such an enormous increase. The Noble Lord had said, that it was a delusion to hold out that there should be not increase; but it was a delusion he (Mr. Tierney) would say, to present estimates of sums of money for which there was no necessity. The estimates for the Staff in Ireland last year were id 48,000, but it WAS afterwards found that £15,000 of ibis sum was unnecessary. Was it to be borne that estimates should be made up in such a loose and inaccurate way ? It would be found on a fareret examination of those estimates, that a greater and greater eaduetion would be foun d necessary.— The reductions that bad already been made ought to be a precedent to the House, not to be dismayed in proceeding * farther. He considered the arguments of his Honourable Friend entirely unanswered, and should, therefore, vote against going into the Com mittee. All he wanted was a reduction in the expen diture; for the House and his Majesty's Ministers should recollect, that they had just escaped from a war in an unexampled manner, and the present peace was one of which there was no parallel. The Mi nister had had what money he wanted during the war; for then, if any person 'expressed an opinion about its being useless, he was called an adherent of Bonaparte's, or a Jacobin, or some other such like title was given him. The War Department, that it might be continued, was now called Colonial, and the change of names was to stand for economy. He did not think that it was absolutely necessary to have a Commander in Chief, and he wished it to be observed, that he did not mean any disrespect to the Duke of York, when he talked of any discontinuance of that die% for that Royal and Noble Duke had certainly conducted himself in a manner highly cre ditable to himself and•Jenefffialito the country. Lord CASTLEREAGH was not surprised at the plan which the Right Hon. Gentleman pursued of preaching up-a system of general economy, and of leaving the understanding entirely doemant, when it might be perceived, if it was exercised, that the esti mates, which were now about to be•proposed to the House, were not to be permanent. The Staff would be regulated by his Majesty's Ministers, but the Right Hon. Gentleman had not entered into the pro priety of this or any other department, but bad con tented himself with some general sweeping observa tions. The Right Hon. Gentleman had talked of the country being able to exist without the Comman der in Chief, and hail wished much to dispense with the War Secretary. The War Secretary, he should remind the House, was now the Colonial Secretary, and his dudes were the duties of peace. Any person who was at all acquainted with military affairs, would instantly perceive the necessity there was to continue 'the office -of Commander in Chief. The extents)! the army was great, but net to . great ; but the grimy was very different from what it had formerly been. In former times it had been perceived that there was no more likeness between one regiment and another, so that if they had been selected from the different Powers of the Continent, they could not be more dis similar. He doubted not but the House would see the ne cessity ot keeping up the office of Commander in Chief. With respect to going into the Committee, he should observe, that if the House suffered the business to , proceed, they might, when they chow,' reject any. items that they thought improper, but if they did • not go into the Committee, to object to die snm he considered as needless and AS unfair, and tending to defeat the purposes of the Right HonourableG a Z tleman himself. He considered much of the rta ing on former-tittles very erroneous: that because at , one time there was so much, at another time there was so mach, and at the present period there should be so much, was certainly a mode of reasoning any thing but satisfactory. There were not less than thirty-three colonies, and if the sum was taken at about 4100,000, at present wanted, it would be about 45,000 per annum for each colony ; but this was by no means a permanent measure. He again repeated, that it was in the Committee, and in the Committee . alone, that the subject could be discussed with pro priety. General GASCOIGNE expressed a doubt, whe ther the reductions on the Staff had not been already carried too far—(Hear, hear). —He conceived, that one General Officer was not sufficient lot the island of Jamaica, where there were SAM terlar troops and 5,000 militia. The gallant Genera , concluded by "Observing, , that the patronage of the WM, ciriald not be placed in safer nr More independent bands thin those of the Duke of York. That illustticus person age was guided by no other ptinctple but that 4 forviardlag the general interest of t t.he nation, sad of properly rewarding the merits of tudividnals. • Mr. TiEttzipa-“ Am - 1 to understand s from the SUPPLY. 011 the motion that the House gesolve into a Cods. like ef Supply, Mr- WAILRE was obliged, from a sense of what hosed to his constituents and to the country, to ob. izlfsto going into a Committee ; and he was con . tha t be should make out a sufficient case for _ jog _ gaff to the measure. The charge of the i lePloye - d on foreign stations was so enormous, ema il/et with that of former ones. that be thought the hem would pause before they would content to go tea Committee to vote this charge. The total el le* of Gener•ls serving on foreign stations in 1792 ' tr tat7,ooo, and in 1802 it was £19,434, which was ilium* only of a little upwards of 42000. But 111 Penni. after a deduction of 463,000 for that _emit Franc e , th e c h arge was swelled to the enos- nelain of £133,000, which was s ix times what it "amble: in 18U2. Ple would ask, was the House of * prepared to recognise such an immoderate ulnae in this department since 18021 He was "ftle that the foreign stations on which our troops employed were increased since the peace of hese, but such an enormous increase of expendi. fes by no means justified by the increase of ex • He therefore thought that the estimates to be sent back, unless such an explanation L given as he could not see the possibility of. : 1 7blediterranean, in North America, in the East; li , in Gibraltar, and in. the West Indies , the ten ;L th e Staff was snore than doubled since the via" aid surely our military stations in those i t liat u _,"°f any like doubled within that time.— '"es also the charge for the Staff was m uch he thought, t h an necessity could justify. Of ar home, likewise, he must say, that the warned to be unjustifiably increased. On the I Its.„, i ,e mid not see any thing like a justification 6i so enormous increase of expenditure in this indeed, he was utterly at a loss to con. rati ve 7 there could be any; and until' he should tt . iatisra ctory explanation on the subject , which fl t dr."‘ocen he Sheila not, he could not consent at° the Committees - observation of the Ohm General, that the pro , / Tr of the army under the Duke of York, was not within the spheie of Government influencer General GASCOIGNE-1 , Leis so than if it were in the hands of any ether person."' Mr. TIERNEY —• 6 I say, the army cannot be considered safe, for a single moient, except it ii. under the command of his MAjestx's Constitutional Advisers." • General GASCOIGNE— , . There never was less influence exerted. or personal favour shewn, than -at present." - Mr. 'TIERNEY- 4 4 The army would be much better under the controul of his Majesty's Ministers. (Hear, hear!) . I speak of the Duke of York with re spect, and, if I may be allowed the expression, with regard; but. I cannot, constitutionally, recognize the power he now possesses in any other hands but those of the responsible advisers of his Majesty." • General GASCOIGNE—" There is no room for entertaining any jealousy of that power." Mr. TIERNEY-..." I feel ten times more jealous of it, because it is held by O n e of t h e ' Royal Family, and not by his Majesty's Ministers." Mr. BENNETT contrasted the expense of sup porting the office at we Horse Guards, in the year 181d0, with the sum now charged in the Estimates for that purpose. In 1800, when we had an army of 260,000 men on foot, the charge was £7638 4sow then did it come to pa ss , that, in 1816, when our army was reduced t o 149,000 m e n , th e cost of supporting it was £16,295 ?—( Near, Hear.)—He nest adverted to the Waggon Train, which cost; leg year, £157,570, including a charge of £66,695 13f horses. One would have supposed, that, in time of peace, many of these horses would be re-sold, and that a reduction would take place in the establish ment ; but, from a document laid on the table, that of 2000 horses, which cost the nation 0;6,965, only three had been sold, and thepublic were thereby belie- I flied to the amount off/tens guiatar.—(Hear, hear.) After some observations trum General PHIPPS. the House went into the Committee of Supply. Lord PALMERSTON believed, that the Wag gon Trail' had been particularly useful. The Duke of Wellington would never go into the field without a considirablc body; and at Waterloo they had been employed sixty hours in carrying off the wounded and on other services; and a principal reason why the horses mentioned had been bought, was to supply the Duke's corps. With respect to the half-pay, he could inform the House, that it was proposed to make an augmentation proportioned to that of tire Navy, applying to all those who were upon the list, and to ali those who had bean reduced, counting from 1793; but it would not apply to those who bad been put upon the list in 1801, because those might have chosen to return to tie active service of the country during the war. With respect to the Staff, considerable reduction would be made. In North Britain there was only one Major-General, which the House would *perceive was a great reduction in itself, when it was remembered, that !rem the Revolution to the present time there had been other Officers.— There would likewise be one Major-General at Pry mouth,. one at Portsmouth, and one in Kent, to stt• perintend the embarkation and the disembarkation of troops from France; but the last would not be per manent, but would only remain during the conti nuance of our present relations with trance. In Guernsey and Jersey there would be two Major Ge- He could not really see that the House could wits any propriety go beyond the reductions proposed. In North America there would be one .Cenamander of Forces, and in Canada two Major- Generals, one in each province, with a civil appoint ment as Governor. In Nova Scotia two Mari- Ge nerals were necessary. In the Leeward Islands a 'Commander of Forces and four Major Generals in , lieu of Lieutenant Governors. Amongst other benefits that would accrue from this regulation, one of these Generals might relieve the Commander in case of in dispnsition. In Gibraltar it was in contenipation to remove the Major Gmeral, and to have only Com mander, who might act in a civircapacity. In Malta there would be a Lieutenant Governor, and in the lonian Islands two Major Generals and a Comman der of Forces. From the Cape of Good Hope one Major General would be removed, and the person who commanded would only be paid as a civil officer. In the Mauritius there would be one Major General, and in Ceylon the Lieutenant-General would bete. moved from the Staff and receive only civil pay. • Lord PALMERSTON moved for the sum of .£275,885, lot defraying the expenses of the Staff' and Hospital Officers on foreign service, and in gist; rims during the year 1816. Mr. C.W. WYNN considered this as a very large allowance for the service to be performed, he thought the number Of Staff Officers much too great. • Lord PALbIERSTON thought' the situation of the Mauritius and Ceylon required the Staff proposed 'to be kept there; as to distant at ttions, it would be necessary to keep n large Medical Staff in them on account of the variety of complaints to which the men must be subject. Mr. WYNN wished to know whltt occasion was there for so many Deputy Adjutant Generals, and Deputy Assistant . Adjutant Generals on foreign stations ? Lord PALMERSTON said. the Majir General in command was included in the number alluded to. Mr. AI3ERCROMBY asked, what necessity WAS thete for so large a Staff at St. Helena t Lord PALMERS Fog saki, this was done to guard against the danger 'of any accident which might facilitate the escape of Bunapitrte from the Island. *and on this account it would be necessary to have Officers of superiority there. Mr. PONSONBY could not conceive what neces ' Mr. PEEL said, that the Duke of York, wante.l to reduce the Staff in Ireland, but that the Irish Go. vernment thought it absolutely n-cessary to retain the present esta'alishrnent, without which it would be impossible to perform the milotary service in Ireland. The Resolution was agreed to. Lard PA LVERSTON next rritSeed to grant a suns of R 183.062 lc: alllwauce.a to the Civil Depart ment of the Army. • Mr. BENNET asked, wEy the recammendation of the Committee for taking off the emoluments of the Commissary General had not been attended to Lord PALMERSTON could not now say whe. ther these could he reduced or no:. The Resolution was agreed td. The Noble Lord nest moved far a sum of 810,113 for defratirig the charges of the Volunteer Corps in Great Britain and Ireland. He observed, that considerable reductions had already taken place in the expenses of these corps. Lord PALMERSTON said, it was the opinion of his Majesty's Government, that this was a very valuable description of force, and that it ought to be kept np, suhject ro the reduction he had stated. Mr. WYNNE thought that many of those corps would maintain themselves it they had no allowance . at all, and he saw ro necessity for calling them out at state.l times ; tls rehire he conceived a less allow. ante would be sufry lent. Mr. ROBINSON s4id, that it was not intended to call them Out oftener than siz days in the year. sity there was for a very large expenie in St. Helena, and he wished to know what was the 'total expense of guarding Bonaparte in that island 4 .. LordCASTLEREAGH. told, the 'Ugh( Hon. Gentleman might move for the account it he thought proper ; he could not, at that monteut , say what was the exact amount of ie charge. Mr. PONSONBY thought the Noble Lord could answer the'cliseitieln at mute. — kir. WYNN thought the expense much. too great. Lord. CASYLE ft BAG H said, hi would taker tare to have the expense laid before the House ; and he could not consider the expense too great, when it was toisilitired ht * .01portant it - was to the peace' of this *dente? and:toll &trope, to keep Bonaparte in se • - Sir J. HI PPESLEY knew that several members of these corps were of an intiriur class of yeomanry, and could not bear the expense of being called out. The Resolution was agreed to. Lord PALMERSTON next called the kttentinn of the Committee to the Local Militia. It was in. tended to bring about a great reduction in this foyce without doing away its organisation.--(Hear, hear). It was intended to discharge the Serjeants, the Ad. jutants, and Qtarter.Masters, and to do away all the local expeosys attached to the Head.quarters; to let the Officers retire on their half-pay, and the men to serve out their time. The ballot was to be sus. pended ; but the force itself should not be annihi lated, provided it could be upheld at a sm ill expense. —The whole ni the annual charge hitherto was 8170,000 ; very little more than halt that sum would now be required, and therefore he preiposed to grant 890,000 for the Local fatilitia.4-Agreed to. Lord PALMERSTON next moved 852,000 for Hosp.t4l etoeity4s. Mr. PONSONOY hoped the items of these tv-• proses would he laid before the House.. Mr. GOO LxlllltN said, every possible • effort . would be made to give the (I.:tails ; he • hoped they would be rt.Ady by Monday text. - The El•arse beiog resumed, the Report of the Com mittee was uttered to be teee;ved on Monday. NAVY INTIMATES. • Mr. BROGDEN brought up the Report of the Navy Estimates, and on the quest:on tat the Rest). lotions be read, Admiral MARKHAM ohi , erved. that severAl Naval Officers who intended to pier their opinions upon some interesting topics connected with the Navy had left the House on an understanding that the Estimates would not be brought tot ward that night ; he therefore wished they might be p:isiponed. Sir JOSEPH YORKE-said, that no intimation of any such postponement had been given, and if Gen tlemen did not Choose to remain in the House, it dil not follow that the blisiness was to ber put off on that account. Mr. PONSONBY was certain that there had been a general understanding that the Navy Estimates . were to come on first, that evening. and when Gentle men found they did not come on they went away, in despair of beiiring them brought forward. Mr. OSBORNE admitted having told Gentlemen that those Estimates should come on first. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER . did not think the question of first or sect - mash/Yellow a reass.a for deferring the important' and pressing business before the House. • • Mr. 'IIERNEY said, be Mew of a guard sair. __• .: Mr. TIERNEY asked, dye periO:Powers of Eiwripe, and France in particular, -ah/Ould'out bear their quota of the expense ? Lrxii CASTLEREAGH said, , that Ely one of the Confederated Powers would mcntsreadily have kept the custody of Bonaparte at. its own separate -xpense ; and on that gro Engl Ind thinking he was now most secure in our cus•ody, thought the most pelitic and generous proceeding would be to ..lerty the expeo-e. Mr. PONSONBY asked, why the other Powers were not called on to contribute a share to the expense; and why should not France be made to contribute ? Lord CAS I'LEREAGH observed, that Gentl. men had already objected to the large contribution laid on France, and now they found fault with Go. vernment for not laying a small contribution upon her.—(lfear.) Mr. WYNNE thought nothing could be more just than that France should pay a part of the expense which was rendered necessary by her own condiv. Mr. HAMMERSLEY asked if any proposal had ever been made to other Powers to defray their share of the expense of guarding Bonaparte ? Lord CASTLEREAGH thought it tamed be highly derogatory from the dignity of England, to make it a matter of common deliberation with fo. reign Powers, that they shoold bear any share of the expense of maintaining an English settlement. If such a thing was done, we could-not send out a ship to St. Helena without the concurrence at powers who would thus have a sort of jurisdiction over that island. In fact no proposition of the kind had been mide." •s . Mr. PONSONBY could not see what dilfictiltir ' , there should have been in applying to the Allied Powers for a share of the expense. This might have been done before the place of Bonaparte's residence was fixed on. He could not conceive how the dignity of the country was in any way concerned in this point. Mr. PEEL fully agreed in the sentiments eirpressed by Lord Castlereagh. He conceived it was credita• ble to the character of the country to have the eXclu. sive custody of Bonaparte even at its own expense. Mr. PONSONBY could not see.how the charailee of England was raised by bearing the exclusive ex. pence of a measure from which all the other Powers of Europe derived an advantage equal to that which we enjoyed. Mr. WYNN complained of the large military esta blishment intended to be kept Grp in Ireland. _ _ .-