Star. — London, England, 1816-06-15 00:00:00

~~ present was not the proper time for any observation nn this subject, but before it was referred to the Committee of Supply, he shiluld inform himself better on it, and again call the attention of the House to it. Mr. ROSE, in explanation, observed that he had no objection to the strictest inquiry being made to the application of this Fund. The Report was then ordered to be referred to a Committee of Supply. MIMIC OFFICES. • Mr. METHUEN w►shed to know from the Noble Lord opposite, what steps had been taken for the duction of expense in the several public offices, and' whether the Report of the Commissioners would be laid• before the House soon ? Lord CASTLEREAGH replied that the Report of the Commissioners was before the Treasury for consideration, but he apprehended it could not be well laid before the House during the present Session. lie thought it would be better to have it deferred till next Sessii, when the whole of what could be ef fected would appear before the House. A Message from the Lords announced, that their Lordships had agreed to the Exchequer Bills Bill, and some other Bills. They also requested a confe rence on Tuesday next, with the House of Commons, in tl!e Panted Chamber, on the subject of the last conference. To this she House assented. WATERLOO AND TRAFALOAR MONCHNNTS. Mr. TIERNEY, alluding to an advertisement which lie had seen, for plans of the columns intended' to be erected in commemoration of the Battles of Waterloo and Trafalgar, wished to know from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, what were the inten tions ot his Majesty's Mioisters with regard to the erection of these columns? He had heard that it was intended to expend 4300,000 on the two; £150,000 on each. He hoped it was not the case; but, at all events, he would suggest chat nothing farther should I be done on the subject until next Session. Indeed the feeling of the. country, in its present distressed state, was very general against the erection of columns at so great an expense. The House should recollect that the £300,000 was only the estimate; but, in every probability,.the expense would amount to 500 ' thousand , pounds before the columns were finished.' In his opinion, no monuments of these two battles airernuecessary ; and, as to the victory of Waterloo, it wouil mint have been commemorated at all, if the battle of Waterloo had not been fought. The cir cumstances of the country were no: such as to bear this additional expenditure ; and it was the less ne• cessary, as it only went to commemorate victories which must ever live in the recollection of British sub jects—(Thar, hear.) He took that opportunity of giving notice, that he should take the sense ot the klotie on the propriety of erecting these columns at all ; in the mean time, he hoped that nothing would be done by Ministers with regard to them. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, that it wzs not the intention of Ministers to take any step towards the immediate erection of these columns before the next Session. The Honourable Member ( Kr. Tierney) must have observed, that the advc•rtis.:mcnt referred only to plans of these co. luznns, which it was necess..ry to have from different artists, in order to have them considered as to their design and expense. These plans should be under the consi.letai:in of the Treasury some time befurel they appro , red one ; and when they did approve one, be as,ta the Right Honourable Gentleman it would be of that plan wrath, being the best,- was time least expensive. It would then be submi.ted for the con sideration of the House next Session ; but until then the Right Honourable Gentleman may rest assured no step would be taken to erect the columns. What had been done was merely to save time. Mr. TIEP..NEY expressed his satisfaction at what he had heard tall from the Chancellor of the Exche quer. He (Mr. Tierney) had been induced to ask the questi , .n Irom having understood that it was in tended to expend three hundred thousand pounds on the two columns. Mr. C. LONG observed, that if the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) found fault with the in tended erection of these monuments, he should con. demn time votes of the House, and not his Majesty's Ministers, who only wished to carry the vote of the House into effect. If a sum were mentioned as the supposed expense, it was because it was impossible to get a plan or design of the intended columns unless a certain calculation was made of expense. HUSBANDRY HORSE TAZ. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the third reading of the Husbandry Horse Tax Bill. Sir C. BURRELL objected to the Tax as severe upon farmers, and unequal in its operation. Sir W. W. WYNN opposed the general principle, of the Tax. After a few words from the CHANCELLOR of t e EXCHEQUER and Mr. DAVENPORT, time Dill was r a third time. Sir C. BURRELL then moved as an amendment that atter these words in the enacting clause, 46 that from and after the sth of April, 1816," these words should be inserted, 64 the several duties charged or to be paid in virtue of several Acts, as far as relates to any Tax on Husbandry Horses, do cease and de termine." On this clause the House divided. For the amend ment, 55; against it, 82—Majority, 27. Another division' took place immediately after our re-admission into the Gallery, on an amendment pro. posed by Mr. 'STUART WeRTLRY : For the Amendment, 39; against it, 75—Majority against the Amendment, 36. The Bill was afterwards ordered to be read a third time on Monday next. IRISH VICE-TREASURER. In a Committee on the Exchequer Consolidation Bill, Sir JOHN NEWPORT, after some observations on the detects of the old system of finance in Ireland, asked the Chancellor of the Eschequer if Government persisted in their intention of creating, in addition to the place td Irish Vice-Treasurer, that of Deputy Vice-Treasurer ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER answered in the affirmative. Sir JOHN NEWPORT lamented that this ques tion had not been brouglit forward earlier in the,Ses sion. 'Che Dill contained a provision, that the Vice- Treasurer for Ireland should have a sold ia Paella. vont, a nd be furnished with a Deputy to perform his ' : dutirta for him. This was in effect a pro,, the office shobld be a sinecure, yet. the alai, posed to be annexed to it amounted to £3,500 al. The duties attendant upon the office' of Vice•Tres. surer might, he contended, be executed by any clerk, and the person discharging them could have nothin. whatever to do upon this side of the wat?t. Sac was the provision nude for the effectual discbalge of the citifies of that part of the Consolidated Ex quer. It had been said in defence of this regaled , that the object was to have the situation filled by a man of eminence in the State ; and the method taken for securing such a perion was by annexing en eml: "pent salary to it.—(4 laugh.) He could not, hose ever, see why the Chancellor of the Exchequer for Ireland, who had much business to perform, should have reeeived'a smaller salary than was to be gives to the Vice-Treasurer. He wished to know nun the Right Hon. Gentleman what salary the Deputy was to have ? The CHANCELLOR of the *EXCHEQUER said, that the Deputy was not to be a Parliamentary Officer. His salary was to be £looo a-year.—(Hears hear. from ahe Oivissition.) Sir JOHN NEWPORT observed, that if the House acceded to a proposition of* this nature, it would proclaim to the country that all professions of economy, and all the labouis of the Committee now sitting to inquire into the state of the public offices, with a view to retrenchment, were an imposition. The Bill vent to affect the character of the House, and compromise the bust interests of the country. • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the Right Honourable Baronet had him seli admitted, that a Paymaster or Vice-Trea•uter should be appointed to conduct the business of Ire land, and had merely applied his arguments to the comparatively unimportant question of salary. He had stated his opinion that a subordinate officer might do ; but when the House considered fairly, he was satisfied they would agree that the whole styrene of Ireland should not be administered by an officer of that description: It they lceiked to the scale of re. muneratien allowed to the great officers of the Ex chequer and other departments, they would see that the sum proposed in this instance was not extraordi nary, and it would be, indeed, strange, if the apt pointment of a Vice-Treasurer now should he rated at less than £3,500 a year, when the three of f ices of the same kind that existed in Ireland this ty years ago, stood the country at between £lO.OOO and £ll,OOO a year. The Right Honourable Baronet had alluded to the office of Chancellor of the Exche quer for Ireland, and he agreed with him in thinking that it was one much underpaid. As to the office now under consideration becoming a sinecure, he did not see how it was more exposed to such a conse quence than any other Irish office, the possessor of which was obliged to attend Parliament. Even if the Vice Treasurer was to be necessarily a resident in Ireland, the functions that devolved upon him were inch as to require the assistance of a deputy. Mr. PONSONBY expressed his decided opiniun that the Bill was deterred to this late period of the Session, because the Minister would not dare to pro pose it before. It .was a most shameful and pro fligate job. In addition to its other objectionable featurei, it proposed to violate the Act of Anne for securing the independence of Parliament, in favour of the Vice-Treasurer. By that Act it was provided that the possessor of no new office, no office created after a certain day mentioned in the Act, should be eligible to sit in Parliament. The Right' Honoura ble Gentleman had talked of the responsibility of the situation ; there was no iesponsibility belonging to it. He had dwelt upon the necessity of rank and talent in the person who filled it. What rank or talent was necessary to countersign a warrant issued by the Lord Lieutenant, and see that the sum should correspond with the amount stated in the warrant ? No rank or talent was necessary beyond what belonged to the commonest clerk. But why should the Vice Trea surer sit in that House ?—his office was purely Mi nisterial. If any account was required by Parliament of the sums issued, the Chief Secretary of State for Ireland was the person to be applied to. What pre tence was there for allowing him more than the Lords of the Treasury for Ireland ? Their salaries amounted only to two thousand pounds a-year .each. He was always ready to agree in a reasonable and liberal allowance to the officer of the public. Acting upon that principle, he did think that AVOW a/ear would be very liberal, before he knew that be was to have a Deputy with an allowance of £lOO9 a-year. He thought that, under the present circum stances, the best mode he could pursue would be to I propose that the salary should be £2OOO a-yea ,r and negative the clause for allowing him to sit in Parlia ment, and also that which went to make a provision for his Deputy. If he was to have the power to ap• point a Deputy, he should be made to pay the De puty himself. He then moved that the sum of 12000 should be substituted for that of £3500, and intimated his intention of following up this motion by putting a negative on the other propositions to .svhich he had just alluded. Mr. PEEL observed, that the Bill italuka put an end to eight offices—the five Lords of the rreaatuY in Ireland, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Se cretary to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. and the Secretary of the Treasury. The Right Honourable Gentleman had said, that the Vice-Treasarer could have no controul but the examination of all the ac counts of the Auditor of the Exchequer. It ahould be recollected, too, that the salary of lite Treasuter of the Navy exceeded that proposed to be given to the new officer, though its duties did not exceed that of the new office.—(4l./aresh.) Mr. PONSONBY ridiculed the argument, that be cause a number of useless offices were abolished by die Bill, its proposers should, therefore, be allowed to create a number of other offices that were alto use less. The Right Honourable Gentleman bad asked why the Treasurer of the Navy should have £4,000 a-year I That question he should feel it hard to an. swer—(4 laugh)--Ne should rather brave it to the Gentlemen on the opposite beech. Why the Trea surer of the Navy should have £4,o9lPs.year, he did not know. bat there was an oracle on that sub ect now in the House—( Mr. Rau haply jig from whom they might expect to receive information. —(4 laugh).—Some nights ago, when an allusion was made by a Right Hoaom6le Friend*, his(hfr. Tierney) to the small quantity of busiaesi attached to the office of Treasurer of the Navy, the House would recollect is what a flame the Right Honour able Gentleman rose to reply; bat now it appeared. -room of another Right ifobeihrable tea that the Trttisurer of did Nav had no more d & th an the Vick -Treasurer of Irela n d . —(Hear). - PEEL skid, that be thought it not a little surprisiog that the observations of the Right Honour orahloson e G e ntle w m h a o n re sh ce ou iv l e d d b ie e 4 d . i oo rec o te a d .y a e g a a r. i_nst v tha la t u c i l h as ) s . He could assute the Right Honourable Gentleman that he did not make that allusion for the purpose of 'recriminating. He was aware that he received his penfiod in consideration of having relinquished his prOfeetion for the situation of Chancellor of Ireland. But the Treasurer of the Navy had the same claim to his Salary, and that was all he meant to insinuate. Mr. PONSONBY declared that he felt no desire vindicate himself, where there was no necessity.— He received the sum of 44000 a year in consequence of having resigned the office of Chancellor of Ireland, 'and that was the sum always granted in similar cases. He did not feel 'that he stood on the same footing with a person who received a salary for holding an office in which there was nothing to be done. if the Right Hon. Gentleman did mean a reflection on him, which he could not suppose after his disavowal of a, he should have no objection to submit the charge, on its own grounds,' to the good sense of the House and of the Public. Mr. V. FITZGERALD defended Mr. Peel against any intention of recriminating, in the allusion be had made. Mr. ROSE said, that he held his office in a mea sure still less objectionable than the Right Hon. Gentleman, as it came annually under the considera tion of Parliament. He felt that the salary of £lOOO a year attached to his office, was a fair reward for persons who, having served the public faithfully in the course of a long life, and having made no provi sion for the latter end of their days. He would admit, that the duty of the Treasurer of the Navy was not commensurate to the £4OOO a year. But it was one of those offices that were established upon the ; principle of rewarding length of services. In other professions Gentlemen could make fortunes and provide for the decline of life, but there were very few offices under Government in which it was possible to save anoo a year. Mr. TIE RNEY said, that the Right Honourable Gentleman who had last spoken, had, in a truly pa thetic manner, described the duties of the Treasurer ship of the Navy, and the necessity of maintaining offices of that kind as a remuneration for long and active services. He (Mr. Tierney) not only admit ted that effective offices, like the Treasurership of the Navy, ought to be well paid, but also felt, clearly seeing the particular application of the question to the Right Honourable Gentleman himself, that that individual had been an extremely useful servant of the public, and had been pretty well provided for in return. (Hear, hear.) He had come to the enjoy ment of £7OOO a year from the public before be step ped into the Treasurership of the Navy. (Hear.) Instead of thinking that the last addition was neces sary for a complete remuneration, he had beard it universally wondered at that he was not more than satisfied with his previous good fortune. The Right Honourable Gentleman, it could not be denied, had got a strong swallow. (Hear, hear,and laughing.) He could receive /MOO a year, and yet reserve an appe tite for £4OOO more in the shape of sinecure. The Right Honourable Gentleman had once been ques tioned on his emoluments, and owned the moderate receipt of sB7OOO a year of the public money ;—but this was all as a reward for past services. The Right Honourable Gentleman could not but plead the same merits for all his family ; and while he claimed emo luments for himself, on the ground of past exertions, he anticipated the reward of his son. (Loud cheering.) He made the public provide for him before he did any thing for the public, and had a place ready for him before he was born. (Cheer:.) The Right Ho. nonrable Gentleman, be (Mr. Tierney) allowed, had deserved well ; he had been long employed in the service of the country, and bad discharged his duties zealously and faithfully ; but the public owed him nothing ; there were no arrears of debt unpaid. He had done well for the public, and the public bad done well for him. (Hear, hear.) lie had, in addition to his own rewards, secured for his son the reversion of the Clerkship of Parliament, and all the patronage connected with it. He had secured for himself and his two sons places and emoluments worth 820,000 a year.. (Hear, hear.) This was the extraordinkry liberality of the country to the Right Honourable Gentleman—this was the mode in which his services were rewarded. The present appeared to him the most deliberate, outrageous, and unjustifiable job that any set of Ministers had ever the boldness to propose. He would go the length of calling it scandalous. as be believed that was a Parliamentary word, than which he was allowedno stronger. (Hear, and a laugh.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer had made such a statement as could leave a doubt on the minds of no impartial person; with his usual ingenuous manner he let so mach appear as was quite convincing. He had said, that it was necessary to have a person as Vice Treasurer who might be useful to the Ministers by his abilities and eloquence in the House, and it would be foolish to expect assistance without paying for it—(Hear, hear, Arida laugh).—They now required all the aid they could find in all quarters. They had lately a reimportation from abroad, in the person of a Right Honourable Gentleman, who was to be paid 'tor his support by 85,000 a yen. They were now to have 'another from the West of the Channel, and to p ty him £3,soo—(Hear, hear, hear).—As Puha meat was to pay this . sum professedly for the benefit of this Gentleman's parliamentary talents, it might be proper to institute a parliimentary inquiry into their 'eatent and usefulness— (Cheerirs)—Wsre they worth 03,500 a year ? There should be an estimate of them, that we might not be cheated in the bargain we made, or the sum we paid for them. The dig nity of an Irish Minister was to be kept up; but why continue the dignity of an officer of the Exchequer, when the Exchequer itself was abolished, with all honour and state ? Ireland was to have the dignity of it Vice-Treasurer, and for that she was to trans fer to us the benefit of her debt—(Weer, hear.) — At a moment when the country was weighed - down with taxation, at a time When , all classes were suf. faring and complaining, it was extraordinary that any set of Ministers should dream of adding to their burdens by creating a salary of 1113,500 a year--a salary to one who had to support no rank, who had to maintain no state, who bad to exhibit no representa tion, and =squad; regal* no consideration for Splendour Or expanse. Can they believe t h at the country will view this without disgust? poor clerks must be dismissed to make up the Late r , of this o ffi cer, to compensate for th exp-nses et ;16 ' vile, rank, coarse, vulgar job.—( Ch eying.)H ecn e ei bestow upon it no other epithets here ve:e t lies in the country of great respectability and proud ancestry suffering under the pressure of the - who could not but see with disgust and iiiiligeatee characters their strutting..!. pockets. nttin f g im le t t f vg, d d e b r e e een d 5 „ 4 „ , , d 1 officialtake taken from argument had been brou g h t tonics n uselessinoy that e no new against the measure. What argument did it requi te . was not its shameless character sufficiently expie t a without argument or reasoning He had le:gu n ;il l the word job, he would end with the word job„ nd the middle of his speech had been about nothin g e ;, e. but a job.—(Cheery, and a lau,gh.)—He be~red, le implored Gentlemen who had enforced entir, 6. Session. economy upon a Government se little le i . posed to practise it—who had been pre.en t i eg Lions praying for retrencement. to check now etc headlong career of Ministers. If they now rnd d e a stand, and successfully opposed this sherneless iraa monstrous job, the House might still receva its eh. racier with the country ; and even at this Lot. p tr i r ,d of the Session might sbew that many Members sea attended to their duty, • and were deceit:renal o ea the admiration and to conirnand the gretituJe Constituents.— (Loud, and Icng continued ci.verin.) Mr. GIPPS thought see'oreo roye.r nos q; ;; ; sufficient salary for this office. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that his vice 4 this question was not altered by the ridicule wi. the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite (i,! r . Tierney) had, with his usual force and nun: poured forth on this occasion. It Was 110 air to say, that the duties of office would be pri es:l2 a at a cheaper rate than they were, if put up to a ". tion, and sold to the highest bidder. fhe great piton- ciple of Mr. Burke and other statesmen was, rat office should hold its proper influence—it ass a me te argument ad cap:it'd:on to deny, that such iefieeece was a qecessary annexation to the true design eel principle of office— (Luderie: of hear, hear.) It w a s a species of Irish bull, he would almost say, to assert that Ministers meant to create places, when it was manifest by their reduction of more than five offices, that their feeling was the reverse. When the consoii. dation of the Treasuries of both countries was carried into effect, it would be essential to have an wee: sible person here to give the necessary explanation to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and also in Pasha. ment, on the financial matters connected with Ireland. Time Vice-Treasurers formerly existed ; only one was now proposed—(4 laugh, and Hear I)—and the Go vernment were, in reviving this single office, retro quishing five Parliamentary offices. The estahlisa. ment of this office was doing no more than taiga to be done to afford scope for calling out and retnera rating the talents exercised in the public service.... (Hear, hear.) Sir JOHN NEWPORT read the preamble of the Act of 1806, relative to the reduction in die utfices of Customs, by which thirty-two situations eere ebb. lished, and more were then in the view of reduaine. (Hear, from Lord Casikreagh.)—' rile Noble Lord lill7 sheer ; hut the reason why a more effectual redueoce had not then taken place was, because those etficts were, in many instances, held by the possessors ou the term of vested rights: as they fell they were abolished. Lord CASTLEREAGH replied, that no reduc tion had taken place in the daces held at pleasure, during that Administration. Sir JOHN NEWPORT denied this fact, and said that the reason why several other offices were net suppressed, was, that they were by the Noble Lot ti's Friends granted in reversion.—(Hear.) Mr. GORE LANGTON protested against Ws most scandalous job. (Hear, hear.) It was timer': said, eo redeem the pledges given to a loyal and me tering people. The country could no longer be AA idle spectator of such prodigality, and he woad met feel himself acting as an independent Member of Parliament, it he did not vote against this sischis office. (Hear, he2r.) Mr. S. Vs'ORTLLY thought that this was a nr , t unjustifiable demand on the public. The .I% . .e'e Lord's argument wits, that because he had aboiie:ed five offices, they ought to create one.. But he lal forgot to chew, in the first e instance, that the office was at all necessary. Mr. HUSKISSON thought the proposed otlice one of great trust and importance, and as to the Lee period of the Session at which this measure acs brought forward, it would be easy to state the cunistaoces which served within the present Sesse n to impede the introduction of public bluntest. he took occasion to observe that he recollected an Act brought forward at a very early period of the See sion by u former Administration, in which a last Lord of the Treasury was authorised to hold an re. fice which was originally appointed to controid and yet no objection was made to it by the Gcntie men whom lie saw opposite, although from toe iu pression which that measure made in the country, it WAS pretty evident that the authors possessed en 'small degree of political courage. It had bier ie tertnirea on former occasions:, that the creation ul A new office did not necessarily incapacitate the r hos who held it from having a seat in that Honse. For instance, the Pres:dent of the Board of Contrail s4t in Parliament. With respect to the Depute, Is t must say he thought the objections to that efficer3'.o with a very bad brace from the Right Hon. Cara man opposite, who was formerly Treasurer of the Navy, and who told the House, on a resew occa sion. that the only merit he could claim was having had a deputy, whose diligence, activity, and »e i to the discharge of his duty, was most tacritorilos. — , For himself, he considered a Deputy necessary. role be was also of opinien that it would he hitely de sirable that the principai should have a scat in that House, that he might be able to explain, and }"t.- mote the general interests of Ireland. Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON warnlly cte jetted to it as an unconstitutional reward fur secret and mysterious services. Sir FLOOD declared himself undecided as to, the vote he should give. He stood at a jurors toe.. tide between both parties. All he could say via., that . the Treasurer of the Navy had acknowledFe I be was paid too much for his services, and that he would p r otest against any odious comparisen be tween thut office dad the one from which his WEI.: Honourable Friend (Mr. Ponsonby) bad sereirkJ, 'Oa be t P er for