Star. — London, England, 1807-08-05 00:00:00

I.Asit.iiiAiENTART PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE. OF LORDA, TUESDAY, AUGUST 4. In the cattle " May v. Wharton," judgment was again deferred anti' Friday next. 'lle Matta . 1 rad., and feveral private Bills, were brought up and read a firft time. Lord HOLLAND prefentcti a petition front certain perfons at agliort the Eaft India Bonds Bill. The I.OR t't CHANCELLOR obfcrved that the petition could not be received. as the fignatures were tint anntxed to it. As It r ared at prefent, it was a petition wi.ho It names, or a fet of ram. s without a petition. It was rejected (al account of this informalit y. OFFICES IN REVERSION. On the Order of the Day bring read for the fecond reading of the Bill fur preventirg the granting of Officcs in Reverfion, L ,rd A ItDEN role to oppole it. He confidered the Bill to he an unneceffary and indecent attack upon the King's lawful prerogative. N•'thing what ever had been Rated to prove that Inch a meafure was necelLtry, except merely an expreffion in the p•eamble of the Bill, that it was expedient for the public fervice. The manner alfo in which the Bill originated was very unufual, and no ground had been !hewn to prove that there was any n;ceffity to make fuch an attack upon the King's juft prerogative. He Should therefore oppofe the Bill and take the fenfe of the Houfe upon it. Earl GROSVENOR exprefred great regret at the oppnfl.inn given to this Bill by his Noble Friend. He conceised the Bill to be fo completely in unifon with the popular feelings at the prefent moment, that it would be unwire to rejeCt it, and he thought his Majefly's Minifiers, by oppofing the Bill, would ren der themfelves to unpopular that they would not long remain in office. He was a warm friend to the 8.11, not merely for its own fake, but for the fake of thole meatuses of reform relative to the public ex penditut e, of which he confidered this merely as the forerunner ; meafures which were highly neceffary at a ctifl. like the prefent, when it was of In much imp..rtarce to engage the hearts as well as the arms of the people. He nulled their Lordthips would not be induced to rtjea the Bill. Lord LAUDERDALE expreired his aflonifh- Ment at the intended oppofition to the Bill. It was extraordinary, he Grid, that Mmitiers chide to abfent themfelve on this (Teat - inn; that they did not venture upon a perfonal opp. lotion to the Bill, but Cent down their relatives and conneetions to froother it. Upon refletion, however, he was not furprifed at their con do& ; 1.4 with what conlifiency could they concur in r ej e cting a Bill which they had recommended in the fpetche- tr.m the Throne, at the conclufion of the an.t commencement of the rrefent Seffion ? The Bill was broughr in will the univerfal approbation of the whole kingdom : it polled the other Houfe witlo out rippothion, and was refetved for rejection here. 114 d th. fe who approved the principle of the Bill the hall idea that an oppoluion to it was intended, the attend oxe on his tide of the H .ute would have been rnuth ereater. He wifhed that the difcuffion of it !world Ire adjourned for 24 hours. Lord Viteount MELVILLE laid there was only one point in which he agreed with the Noble Lord (Lauderdale), namely, that which related to the ab fence of Nlit:iacts. He wifhed they had been there to declare their fentiments in oppofition to the Bill, if fuch were the lentimen:s which they entertained upon the fu jeCt. But when the ablence of Mini. tier s was tp. ken of, he would Mk, where were the Mutinous Members of the late Adminitiration ? why did not they attend to Cupport their own Bill, and difplay their parental fondnefs for their own offspring? He denied that this meafure had been approved of or alluded to in his Majetty's fpeech. 't he Ipeech ap plauded the general objeCi of the Committee of Fi nance, namely, to inquire into the means of reform ing and economiling the public expenditure; but could not be made to ap t ly to the prefent meafure. N . ) argument had, he contended, been adduced in favour of the prefent meafure, except an affertion, that it was agreeable to the public ft cling. He did not believe that there was any loch feeling in the public mind, nor was there any thing in the Bill by which the public could be benefited. If the Bill were to pals, not a fixpence would be faved by it ; the officers would remain the fame, and the only object of it would be to encroach upon the King's juli and lawful prerogative. The Noble Lord had fpoken of revetfions being granted to children, but was it n t the praCtice when great feevices had been performed by an Admiral or General to confer he. reditary honours, and to grant all an annual fum, which was not confined to the perfon to whom granted, but was extended to I . .is defcendants. It had been the conliant praClice of our ancetlors to aCI upon this principle. He would pro a cafe alto. to Phew the expediency of afting up it in other in fiances, loppofe a perfon was rendered incapable by. age or infirmity trorn executing the duties of an of. ce which lie had held for twenty or thirty years. Such a perfon was not to be turned oat wiihout Come provifion. There were in this cafe only two modes of aaing ; the one by a penile's), and the other by granting the tevertion of the office to his fon or other relation, who might allift him in the (Tice. By the former mode, a charge was made upon the public during the life of that perfon, and in the latter there was no additional expence. He could difcover no thing in tupport of this Bill, but an affertion that it was expedient ; witillt on the other hand there was the uniform praftice of our anceftor s. lie could not therefore cunt - tint to fuch a Bill as the prefent, nor ceold he for a moment content that after a beneficent reign of nearly half a century, fuch en attack fhould be made upon the prerogative and influence of a be loved and revered Monarch. Earl GROSVENOR and Lord Viicount MEL VILLE mutually explained. Lord HOLLAND fupported the Bill, in a fpeech of conliderahle length. He thought it was incumbent on thofe who wished that the prefent Miailiersfliould (land well in the public eflimation, to prevent a de from raking place in fo thin a Houle. The ao!ence of Minitiers molt certainly arofe from their Ittprfing the Bill to be of fo popular a tendency, that it could meet with no oppofition. At a time eeleen a ten ti part of every man'a income was appro priated to the exigencies of the State, it was natural chat they ihneld be deeply interefted in the fate of this Bill. His Lordlhip then proceeded to argue, thst rh- Crown, intlead of kiting any thing, would be confider ably a pie er by the meafure, by having the offices, as they became vacant, at its immediate ditpotal. He concluded with moving that the debate Would be adj 'tuned until to-morrow. lIDUCATION OF THB POnft. Mr. WHI rBREAD moved the further confider- ation of the Report of the Parochial School Bill. I. Mr. DAVIES GIDDY did not intend politively to GlT:ft to the Bill in its prefent Rage, although he certainly thought that fome alterations ought to be made. He dreaded the danger of corrupting the minds of the poor by inflammatory publications, when they fhould be enabled to read. Mr. WILLIAM SMITH obferved, that the ar guments againft the Bill proceeded upon the abufes of a thing very proper in itfelf. But if we were to carry that principle fomething farther, we fhould not only Phut the eyes but (lop the ears of the poor. It was eafier to perfuade an ignorant multitude by in flammatory converfation, that the way to prevent fa mine was to pull down mills; that machinery pre• vented work for the people, intlead of encouraging it by the increafe of manufaftur es, and to pnifon their ears with pernicious and narrow views of that fort, than to inculcate !edition and immorality by writing. Betides, education was the mode to place them above all effrrts of this fort. He, therefore, was for expanding that Wendt which he could not do away it he would, and which he would net if he could.. Mr. POLE CAREW propofed an amendment, the objeft of which was to do away the purchafing of hoofer. It was better to have twenty facets in a parifh than one, if that could be done, for he was an enemy to large eftablifhments, which certainly had no tendency to encourage morality. He thought it could have no good effeft to give refined education to the poor. He was perfuaded that this plan would not have the effea of diminithing the poor rates. Mr. WHITBREAD in reply Rated that the ar guments of the Hon. Gentleman had been refuted before in the Houle, and by every writer on the lab jed, and were more fit for the times when the poor laws were eflablifhed, than for the prefent time. He talked of a -refined .education. What was it that was intended to be taught ? letters—the elements of education. As to the twenty fchools, that was fug gelled with a view to diminifh the expence fuppofed, for then there would be twenty fchoolmallers to payl He did not profefs that this meafure would immedi ately diminifh the poor rates ; he did not fay that a man would eat lefs for being able to read ; but he certainly did fay, and maintained, that by elevating the minds of the people, you would make them afhamed of refottity , to parifh relief. Mr. POLE CA li‘EW explained, and raid that he did not think it worth while to notice the contemp tuous manner in which the Hon. Gentleman had treated him. • Mr. WHITBREAD was Corry that his words or manner Mould convey a meaning which he never intended. He might have a contempt for the argu- ment witkout having a contempt for the perfon that ufed it. The Amendment of Mr. Carew was then rejeaed without a divition. Mr. DAVIES GIDDY brought up a claufe rela tive to the mode of proceeding in varies in cafes of incorporated patifhes. Mr. MORRIS alto propofed a clank for confining the expence at fartheft (for buildings we fuppofc) to three pence in the pound !telling annually. Dot . ll were agreed to. Mr. POLE CAREW then objeCted to the pream• ble, both as far as regarded the alledged effeas of education among the 1 weer orders, and as far as re garded the example of Scotland, about which we had not the requilite infilrmation. The advantages of Scotland might proceed from the attention of The Earl of LAUDERDIe*LE again referred to their clergy, and other caufts, diflinCiftom their edu his Majeity's Speech at the dole of the raft Seffion, cation in parochial fchools. his Majelty's fpeechat the opening of the prefent feffion, t Mr. WINDHAM oblerved, that different people and to the Votes of the Hoof. of Commons, con- were apt to miliake the effete for the caufe. The taining the Refolntion on which the prefent Bill was education of the lower orders of Scotland might be founded ; and contended that his Wetly% Speeches owing to their charaeler, and not their charaCter to contained a full approval of this meafure. their education. And, with regard to teaching the Lord Vifcount MELVILLE again contended' poor to read, it ought to be confidered that there that his Majeßy's Speeches only contained an appro. was as much bad reading as good. val of the general ()Neel of the Committee of Finance. Mr. WHITBREAD would net content to alter The Earl of SELKIRK approved of the Bill, the preamble, which was the foundation of the Bill. upon the principle that it was to be confidered as the He had not expeCted that his Ript Hon. Filend, forerunner of other great and important matures. (Mr. Windham) would have been In the Houfe, and Lord BORINGDON expreffed his regret at he was altogether unprepared for his oppofition, tho' differing from many Noble Lords with whom he out of tendernefs to him (Mr.Whitbread) he had made ufnally allied ; but when he confidered that this Bill it lighter than before. He was furprifed and grieved had been fupported by Minillers, had patted the other that he fhould lend his talents to thofe who feemed to Houfe, and had been received with nearly an unani- think education an improper thing for the lower orders mous content, added to the circumilances of the pre- -but even againft his great abilities he would engage fent moment, he felt it his duty to vote for it. to maintain, that education contributed to morality The Houfe divided on Lord Holland's Motion : and virtue. He was aftonifhed that in a mind fo en. Contents n—Non.contents 16—Majority 7. I lightened, there fhould be a fpeck fo dark. If he Strangers were not again admitted till the further hAd not known that his Right Honourable Friend difcuflion of the Bill was over; but we undertiood was one of the mot enlightened men of t h e a g e, he Houfe I that the Hou again divided on a Motion fur reading would really have fuppofed that he had heard ono. the Bill a fecond time ihii dal' three months:— ther Jack Cade, who had accufed Lord Say and Sele Contents is—Non -contents 9 —Majority 6. of corrupting the minds of the people by introduc. The Bill is therefore alit:wo out. '• ing grammar fchnnls and printing, and nouns, and Adjourned till to-morrdw (this day). . . verbs. When one oppofed that for which he him - . .felf was remarkable, this was calld " the Devil HOUSE OF COMMONS. rebuking Sin." We heard of mathematicians who A Mirage from the Lords informed the Houfe, that their. Lordlhips had agreed to the Frogmore Houfe thc Woollen thought mathematics the only deferable education— Clothiers' Sufpenfion Bill, the Coffee Warehoufing Bill, the Britith -navigators who preferred navigation to ,every Fifheries Bill, the London Coal Market Bill, and to feveral prk , thing, and fo forth ; but here was a molt remarkable vote Bills. thing—a man of the greateß knowledge himfeif op The Confolidated Fund Bill was read a fecond time, and the poling the communication of knowledge. There had reported ordered to be received to-morrow. A Perfon from Greenwich Hofpital premed at the Bar an been a defet iptiou of men, indeed, from whomhe would Account of the Expences of t!.e Royal Hofpitalat Greenwich from have been willing to withhold education, he meant March ;, 1806, to March t, tBcy.—Ordered to lie on the table. the African Slaves, becaufe education would only The Foreign Goods Duty Repeal Bill was read a third time and open their eyes to a more horrid view of their fitua paired. quays tion, and therefore prove a perpetual punithment The Bill for purchafing certain warehoufes on the legal was brought up, read a fi rft time, and ordered to be read a (geoid roltrog ue immanis vultur °bunco, Immortale jecur tunden,, feecundaque pants time to morrow. Mr. HOBHOUSE brought up the Report of t h e Committee of Vifcera. Ways and Means, eortaining the Vote of Cre.lit for a soo,oool. But fince the labours of his Honourable Friend for England, and soopool. for Ireland, to be realized by Treafury Mr. Wilberforce, had been at lag crowned with rue. Bills to that amount. The amendments were agreed to, and Bills eels, and even the Africans were in a filtration to ordered in thereon. education, he would with to extend it over The Reports of the Royal Kent Canal Bill, the Swedifh Her- pr ofit by rings Bill, the Silk Duties Repeal Bill, the Spirits Drawback Suf- the world. What he wanted, was to have men who pen'ion Bill, were feverally brought up and agreed to, and the !honkd know their duties, and could therefore the Bills ordered to be read a third time to morrow. better perform them—who fhould know their rights, Tit Weft India Goods Audtion Duty Sufpenfion Bill, and the and fbould therefore be more able and willing to de- Malta Trade Bill, feverally went through a Committee, and the Reports were ordered to be received tomo r ro w. fend them. If you did away the Preamble, the balls of the Bill %world be deßroyed. In anfwer to what R FCRUITING 51,51'51 , 4. On the motion of Mr WINDHAM, returns were ordered of had been Paid about miltaking the caufe for the effeCl the numbers of men railed by recruiting, in the firft fix mouths of in the cafe of Scotland, he only begged to refer Gen. the years sBos, tBo6, and 'Soy; and alto the numbers of men tlemen to what the character of the Scotch was, be. railed by Officers recruiting fi r rank, during the fame period. fore there fchools, as defcribed by the ir Mr. WHI I'BR FAD laid, that a • an encouragement had been own authors, held out to enlilt men for the Volunteer h ftabliffiment, he willed one of whom (Fletcher) he had before quoted; they to know. if any returns could be yet made out of the numbers fo were thieves, t obbers, drunkards, vagabonds, and entitled ? mifcreants of the worft defcription. The change was Mr. LONG anfwered that be did not think this fyftens had hi therto been added upon, and therefore no returns could be yet attributed by the late Lord Advocate of Scot l and made. and by others who had the bet! information on the fu'ojett, to thefe fchools. Sir THOMAS TURTON contended that we had not fufficient information to warrant the citing of Scotland as an example, and that in many inflances great danger might refult from the abglity to read in the lower orders. He referred, as an inßance, to the late mutiny in the fleet, which had been encouraged by the reading of newfpapers on the quarter deck by the tailors, who perverted the fenfe, and turned it into what moll fuited their purpofe. However, he did not with it fhould be fupp (fed that he was againft infltu&ing the poor ; he only objected to the trade. But he was convinced that the Bill would be as a dead letter on the Itatute book. Mr. M'CLEOI) fpoke in favour of the Bill, and of the preamble as it 11 rod. He contended that the people of Scotland were naturally men of good cha rafter, certainly bettered and improved by education, which was effential, lie thought, to the knowledge that every mar, aught to have of the fublime truths of the Chrillian Mr. WINDHAM in explanation, laid, that he had not been well undernood by his Honourable F,iend on the other fide. He would take an opportunity to let himfeif right in Lis opinion, but at pi efent the attempt might lead to too great a length of dit coition. Mr. WILBERFORCE obferved, that the Hon. Baronet (Sir T. 'l'urton) feemed to be out of hu miur with his own opinion, and therefore he had hopes of him. The truth was, the principle he and others appeared to profefs, would, if followed up, lead to confequences which they themfelves could not poffibly admit. If mankind were not to be instruc ted, it would pretty clearly follow that we ought in many inflances to mealure our iteps back, and pro mote barbarifm and ignorance. His gratitude to Heaver; for his exitteuce was for the rwianal powers and the capability of intlrunian which had been giren him, and our object ought to be, to augment, and not extinguith, ibis glory of our nature. He would be furprifed that in any country there fhould be an'oppofition tointituCtion, but more particularly in a country like this. If our liberties led to fuch an abufe of our faculties, it might be a fubjea for Con fideration whether the body ought not to be enflaved rather than the foul ? As to tne former part of the preamble, he could not affent to leave it out, as it was the moll important part of it. He alto thought that the latter part of it ought to be retained. This was due to Scotland in a regulation of this fort. Mr. LOCKHART withed the preamble of the Bill to be retained. Mr. DILLON faid, that Hon. Gentlemen argued very etroneoully when they timed the common peo ple in Ireland to be dcflitute of education. The fait was widely the reverie ; for in the Welt of Ireland, fuppofed to be the lealt civilized part of the country, he had the good opportunity of knowing that fchools for the lower orders were very numerous and gene rah throughout that province ; and that molt of the common people knew how to read and write, as well as fonething of arithmetic. He wasforry ; peverthe leis, that a fpirit of turbulence prevailed amaitgil them; but he was convinced that a better education would be the bell remedy for the evil. Mr. GRATTAN laid, the queftion in difeuffing this Bill feemed to be, whether knowledge or igno. ranee was the better principle for prolnoting the ci vilization and happinefs of a people ? In his mind, knowledge bad a molt decided preference ; and he appealed to all hillory and experience to cf nfirm the opinion. With refpeCt to the peosple of Ireland, it was a great millake to luppufe them an illiterate peo- pie. They were in general very much the reverfe, and particularly in the South, where the people dii played a ttrong mite for letters, and poffeffed a great acutenefs of intelled ; and Co far from being injurious to the murals or profper ity of a people did he think the education of the lower orders, that he conlidered it peculiarly calculated to promote both. Indeed how knowledge could injure any clafs of people, he was at a lots to conceive. He thought the more inftruc. ti n they received, the mare mull their morals and induar y improve ; and perhaps the Itigheft orders of the country did not know too much. In any fy(lem of education for Ireland, he thould be inclined to look much to the example of Scotland, where the benefits I efulting from a national education were Co obvious. That nation had advanced much in letters and pltilofuphy. The people of Ireland were not de ficient of capacity for either, and thoull not want a much more extenfive opportunity of improvement, than they enjoyed. It ought to be given them, the more efpecially as ample means were not wanting in the generous bequens of individuals, and the bounty' of the Leginature for the endowment of &velars (acids, the operation of which had too long laindor. mant. He had prepared a plan of education, both for the lower and higher orders, founded upon the refult of enquiries yet on foot by the late Admini. ftration, and which, had they continued in offisk, would certainly have had the fanaion of their fup• port. His Majetly's prefent Mininers were in pof. feffion of the plan and the materials, and he hoped they would not abandon it. On the fuggenion of the Speaker, Mr. P. Carew agreed that the amendments he propoled on the pre amble fhould not be moved all at once, but in their order. In this way, his firil amendment would nand thus—" That whereas the a v ticious innruetion of youth tends much to the promotion of morality and virtue"— Mr. WHITBREAD objedled to this amendment, on the ground that the introduelion of the word " RELIGIOUS " went to give a falfe glofs to the Bill, which was not meant to convey inaruElion by oral teaching. Mr. WILBERFORCE, after the word was pro pofed, could not objeCt to it. Mr. WHITBREAD propofed, that it fhould ra ther (land—" Whereas the intlruetion of youth tends much to the promotion of RELIGION, morality, and virtue,* &c. Mr. SHERIDAN.faid, the term " RELIGIOUS in. Rrtielion," would go to exclude the children of dif. fenters from the benefits of the Mts. Mr. P. CAREW fuggefled that the claufe fhould be worded thus—" That whereas the inftruai , a o f youth in religion, norality, and virtue tends much," &c. Mr. WHITBREAD and Mr. WILBERFORCE both obj,:efed to' this amendment, on the ground that lit went to vary the whole intention and meaning of the chafe, which expreffed an opinion that infiruelion was produeive of the good effels there enumerated, On the ftiggeilion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCH EQIJE R, it was at lan refalved that the ;lege fhould (land thus—" Whereas the right inflrotaion of youth tends greatly to the promotion of religion, morality, and virtue," &c. On the following words, ," whereof we have the moil convincing proof in that part of Great Britain called Scotland," Mr. P. Carew moved that thefs words be omitted. Mr. SHERIDAN thought that the intrquilion of the word " RELIGION," had rendered the expreffion leis charaCterillic: he was not aware that Scot/and was more religious than the othei parts of the Ern. pire. Mr. WHITBREAD rather felt fortified in hie opinion. The Houfe divided, for the original words of the preamble 33 —for omitting them 28—Majority in favour of the preamble 5. - • On the motion for the third reading of the Bill on Thurfday, The CIiANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER fubmitted to Mr. Whitbread, as there was little pro. file& of the Bill getting through the otlt,Houfe'clur log the prefent ftffion, if it would not be better to have it reprinted as amended, In that it might be refumed on the commencement of the next fellion, as a mea fore which had been approved of in that Houle, rather than as one which had been throWn out in another place. Mr. WHIT4READ wifhed the Bill to take its chance in the other Houle. If its progrefs was flop ped in confswience of his Majeity thinking it proper to prorogue Parliament, that could not be regarded as a rejection, but as an unavoidable delay of the meafure, which would again come forward with no worfe grace than that which had formerly attended it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not oppole the motion for the third reading, which was occur fixei fur Thurfday. WEST INDIA TRADE. Mr. LUSHINGTON begged leave to call to the recollalion of his M +jelly's Chancellar of the Er chequer, a motion which he had fume time fence made, for the piinting of the Report of the Weft- India Committee, with the evidence upon which it was formed ; but owing, ht fuppnfed, to the preffure of other bufinefs, neither was yet printed. The Cub ice, of Well India commerce was of the moR impor tant confederation to this country, and it was appre. hended by the parties, moll deeply concerned in that trnti.e, that it involved a 14te Treaty with a Neottal Power. What he wifhed now to know 'from the Right Honourable Gentleman, was, whether it was his intention to adopt any of the menfures fuggefted is the Report of that Committee? Mr. L. was pro ceeding, but was called to order by the SPEAKER, who laid that the fame rule and order applied to queflions of this fort, introduced by fpeeches of length as to motions without notice, as the Houle might, by that means, be led into difcuffions, without previous intimation upon the topic; to which they related. The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER (as we could under Rand) anfwered that the evidence bad nor yet reached him, and that of courfe he was not prepared to anfwer the queltion of the Hon. Member. MISR /ISMS BILL. ° Mr. LONG having moved that the Honfe do now go into a Committee on the Irifh Arms Bill, Mr. WHITBREAD laid, there were in the Bill many very objectionable claufes, loch, indeed, as feemed to him to be allurements to the enemy, rather than checks on the difaffeaed. It being his with, however, to render the Eill as palatable as poffible, he should not opp ale the Speaker's leaving the Chair,