Star. — London, England, 1811-01-07 00:00:00

The House met at three o'clock, shortly after which eLdeputagoil-fromptLe Commons requested a confer • epee. The Messengers having withdrawn, their Lord ships agreed tb the proposed conference, and deputed elaord Camden, Lord Liverpool, the Lord Bishop of Killala, Lord Napier, Lord Eliot, and Lord Mul grave to manage the same in the Painted Chamber. The Messengers from the Commons havinglicen recallea, were seibriried of this acquiescence ' toge ther intention of their Lordships to B old the _ the Painted. Chamber, .whither the ma- Peers immediately went. On their retunt4 :Amden acquainted the House, that they held a ith the,tiinunonr, and had received ser ums respectia&. the issue of sums from ter for the service of the Arniyend Navy, concurrence of their - Lordships was re- , • alutiona 'alluded Do Whir read; wire kid Able. • • motion of Lord LIVERPOOL, a Message it to desire a conference with the House .imons, on the subject matter of the Resolu , which were transmitted to their Lordships in conference held on the Sd of Jatstary. Messengers returned, the same Peers whe ma, irst conference were directed to manage that end, they proceeded to the Painted r return, Lord CAMDEN informed their that they had held a conference with the the Painted Chamber, on the subject conference held on the Sd of January ; Jrned to the Commons the Resolution de , that day, together with • the amendments , their Lordships, to which they had desired concurkence of the'Commons. - PROXIES. CITANCEL,LOR called the atten-: iouie, and said, that in . consequence. ing which had taken place at the last meeting Lordships, with respect to the propriety of votes by proxy, he felt it his duty to Lordships that he should, on an early notice of a motion on that subject. In giv notice, he should take care to name a day for ideration of the question, sufficiently distant Noble Lord to have an opportunity of being of the circumstance, as he felt it was a very serious importance. MULGRAVE expressed a hope, that the which the Noble Lord had alluded, would postponed to any distant period. He consi. the question,which was involved in the consi• •at of the first importance, and was, there ,iotraLliit it should be brought forward with AMR, ,arl' of MOIRA was not apprehensive of of so hastily bringing the same subject second considerati - he aware of to say a few words on the vote he delivered last night. Certainly the subject of Proxies had been already brought under the consideration of the House by a motion of the Noble Secretary of State, and a Com mittee had been appointed to search for preceelents, which they had done, and the Report now lay upon their Lordships' table ; and he had frequently asked, whether any Noble Lord intended to found any pro ceeding upon their Report ? This was a sufficient rea -1 son, in his mind, for the ',cue of last night ; and he also concurred in every sentiment which had been utteredsby his illustrious relative (the Duke of Kent). He was happy to find that unanimity on this subject prevailed amongst the Royal Brothers ; and he trus ted from this time they would continue to be unani mous upon every other occasion. i The Duke of NORFOLK having just come into ' the House, wished to be informed of the nature of the subject under consideration LO' CHANCELLOR nor was pending their deliberations which could vote they had given last night. The which they were assembled, and the sub . occepiell their discussion, were out of the ;nurse of the proceedings of Parliament.-1 it was necessary that every Peer should ... order to determine, and it was imPossi those who were absent to be aware of the which the Houses would pursue in this ation of affairs respecting the Resolutions been proposed and afterwards adopted.— a :potion as the one alluded to by the Noble Limed Lord was intended to affect the deter. I last night, it should receive his strongest they were then in a Committee upon a completely out of the ordinary course of the of Prliament, and it must have been to. , an what Resolutions they l would finally therefore it was inconsistent that such ab should vote on the Report immediately ; up, who were completely ignorant of what the committee. '!e of CUMBERLAND said, he would reasons which educed him last night to rejection of Proxies, That subject had Iced some time since to the attention of by the Noble Secretary (the Earl of Li wen.; a Committee was then appointed to take .ito consideration. The Committee after. searched into precedents, and he understood was not acted upon, as there was a doubt,' the Tellers relative to their decision ; and, circumstances, he considere.l himself lye the vote he had delivered last night, no means appear to him a fit reason for favour of voting by Proxies. At the same a n t ioni the Question should be brought gigue discussion, and he considered iged to the Noble and Learned Lord for he had glyen- of his intended motion on .t. - ' -- , of LIVERPOOL expressed himself de. :eing the motion alluded to by his Noble. 'd. Friend, brought under the discussion of He considered the Question relative to voting by Proxy of considerable impor t he trusted his Noble and Learned Friend a day for submitting his motion at such :rind as would precede the consideration of public business, p ENVILLE. considpred the vote which night as not involving his determination .uestion of Proxies, for the subject in another fined before the House upon the motion of tcretary. He had no solgectiona to the .prptosed;but he did not apprehend'any pub. i . so urgent for its being hastily pressed consideration, and he trusted sufficient nn he given of the time when the motion !Tilde: - As of KENT—" My Lords, I con s id er oosne measure called upon to state to your "ich infir need the The .RD acquainted Noble Duke with the purport of his intended motion. The Earl of LIVERPOOL rose and said, that as there was no 'potion before the House, he should move the stan4.'ng order of the day. • / . THE EXCIIIQUER. Earl SPENCER suggested the propriety of their Lordships resolving themselves into a Committee, The Earl of LIVERPOOL had no objection to the Noble Earl's proposition. • The douse accordingly resolved itself into a Com mittee of the whole House, when the Clerk read the Resolution of the Commons relative to the issuing of the public money from the Exchequer. After some suggestions of Earl SPENCER and Lord GRENVILI I E, relative to the necessity of having the fact before the House, and that there was urgent occasion the money should be issued, The Earl of LIVERPOOL, on 'entering into the, discussion of the subject, was desirous of removing an impression that had got abroad, that the object of chic measure was to vote money out of the pockets of the people, its object merely was to authorize the issue of money from the Exchequer to the public, which had been already voted and appropriated by Parliament. This question was brought before the two Houses in' consequence of the necessity of the case, the monrY, being urgently wanted for the public service, -Circura. 1 stances had arisen which rendered necessary the bring-o in& the present subject before Parliament. He walls( opinion, that during the incapacityof the Sovereign, the authority of the Crown was vested in the two Houses of Parliament, with whom it rested to supply the de fect in the personal exercise of the royal authority as circumstances might require. This, however, he con. ceived did not extend, neither would it be fitting or convenient that it should, to the details of the Execu tire Government. Those details must rest with the confidential servants of the Crown, who were respon sible for those measures which it might be necespry for them to adopt for th; safety or well-being of the country. In the present instance, it having become seaessary to issue' money from the Etchequer, for the payment of the army, navy, and ordnince, the cornmissioneTs of the Treasury issued their warrant i for - the purpose, it being conceived, that under the Act of William 111. their warrant would be a suffi cient authority. But the low officers of the Crown hiving given an opinion contrary, his Majesty's Mi nisters bowed to that opinion. He, however, still en tertained an opinion, although it might be that of a person ignorant of the subject, that under the words of the Act the warrant would have been in itself a sufficient authority i but he admitted that the uni form usage of the Exchequer ha 4 been to the con trary. It was then proposed to use the Privy Seal to sanction the warrant, which would have been a direct and sufficient authority to all the subor4inate officers. He did'not mean to find fault with those scruples of the indi►idual, by which the use of the Privy Seal, in the manner prop►iwu t had been prevented. In the con duct of Ministers upon this occa4i,),n, there had been nothing but what the peeessiti of the case required. There "-- the - it • the reasons whi my dote on was no secr*t in _ transaction ; was per t 'of Pm:ies lastnight. Without pledging tern well known that the money must be issued to &pal opinion on..that iniportant privilege supply the eiigencies of the public service. In 1788 4er,, I msst observe that the subject had I nod 1189, thf Ministers at that time were equally , 1:1y, on the motion of the Noble Secretaryd Punkielled to act upon their own responsibility, undr 4a Committee to search for precedents, the circumstances of a melancholy incapacity of futt44ST PMeedil Pas• beep resorted I §9Tesei similar ts UiF resat, Thor. when we were isonsiderink a them the respntribility of an magnitude, upon which 'it • of entering into a treaty. who were absent to know that the - Spring Assizes by us in the Committee, it the trial of offenders, that admit the votes of proxies, from the Crown. It was the Noble Secretiry . had Yai, ign Manual, and it was de. he intended, and when we were in t Seal to the Commission, proxies could not be admitted, _ At it ...s unfair which Lord the. then Chancellor, did, and and illiberal on his part that he should make an at- the Judgis went the Circuits under that Commission. tempt to do that by proxies, upon the bringing up of He mentioned this, to chew that the same opinion the Report, which he found he could not accomplish was then held with respect to the duty of the confi in the'Committee where Proxies could not be received. dential servants of the crown, to carry on the Reece- It was more especially to resist such an unfair at- Live Government under the circumstances of the me. tempt which induced me to give the vote I deliver. lancholy incapacity of the Sovereign, so far as the ne. pd upon the occasion. cessity of the case required. He at the same time The LORD CHANCELLOR again stated, that held it to be their duty, to do only those acts which he intended to make his motion on Friday, and he were necessary'tp the wellbeing of the country. In would on Thursday mention more particularly the 'the present case, it wag an act of necessity, that this nature of its tenden - cy. money, which had been already voted and 'ppropria. Lord REDESDALE was apprehensive, if the ted by Parliament, should issue from the Exchequer question of Proxies was to lie submitted to their dis. to supply the exigencies of the public service, and he' cussion, because they were not regularly sitting in !trusted, therefore, there would be no objection on the Parliament, the other orders and usages of the House (part of their Lordships to give the authority by sane. might come under the same uncertainty. In that case tioning the Resolution. As to any charge of delay, there would be no principle which could bind their , Parliament had sanctioned whatever delay had op. Lordships to a single regulation which governed them curved, upon grounds and for reasons which to them as a House of Parliament. • were satisfactory. His Lordship concluded, by The Duke of KENT—" My Lord, I cannot suf- moving to agree to the Resolution, and to add the fer the observations of the Noble and Learned Lord words, The Lords Spiritual and Temporal." to pass, without one remark. Much has been said ! Lord GRENVILLE felt a difficulty in conse. in this House about feelings for the King, and othets quence of the speech of the Noble Secretary of State, have been supposed to have feelings for the Prince ; as to the course which he ought to take, There had but there is not a Lord here who can, I am sure, been an understanding for the convenience of the have stronger feelings than I have for both the King House, that merely the exigency requiring the issue and the Prince : still, on such an occasion as the pre- ; of money from the Exchequer should be considered sent, when a new and most important subject, that to-day, and that the conduct of Ministers should be of the Sovereignty itself, is under our deliberation, reserved for a future discussion. He would not, how.. may not a Peer be called upon to exercise his discre. ever, now break in upon that understanding, by at. • tion Rear, hear), and for that purpose should not tempting to discuss that part of the subject in so thin he be present The Noble and Learned Lord would a House, and after the fatigue of last night's debate; consider it in the manner of form and usage ; but but, protesting against the monstrous principles urg where so important a question as that which relates to ed by the Noble Earl, he pledged himself that a day a Sovereign of this country is agitated, we ought not should come when the conduct of those Noble Lords to decide it with the same indifference as we would should be made the subject of discussion. The No. give our votes in respect to a common Corn sill"— , ble Earl had got into a strange confusion in• arguing ( Hear, hear.) ' that in consequence of the melancholy incapacity of The Duke of CLARENCE thought it incumbent the Sovernir - the functions of the Executive Go. ;gn, vernment devolved upon the two Houses. It belonged to them, from the necessity of the case, to supply the defect in the personal 'exercise of the Royal Autho:i rity ; but they could not perform the functions of the Executive Government, and herein consisted the diffi. culty, for no one else legally could. The Noble Earl had said, that he bowed to the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown • and he (Lord Grenville), had their opinion been ;hat the warrant issued by the Lords of the Treasury was legal, should also have bowed to it. He could not agree with the Noble Earl in his construction of the Act of Parliament, be. cause no incidental words in an Act could give the power to the Lords of the Treasury of drawing the King's money from the Exchequer. The power must be given by direct and express words. All the monies voted for the public service .(with the exception of the Consolidated Fund, which was specially applied, and the surplus voted to the King in the succeeding were voted to the Kini• and became the session), • King's monies in the Exchequer, from which they could not be drawn without the authority of the Crown, signified either by the Great Seal, the Privy Seat, or under the special directions of an Act tlf, Parliament. He, as Auditor of the Exchequer, al place which had been supposed by some to be a sinecure, but which was an Office of great public trust and superintendance over the issue of Public Money, could do no otherwise than refuse to sanction the warrant. His office was not an office of State, or of political responsibility, but purely Mini. aerial, in which he was bound to act according to law, and in which it would have been contrary to his duty to have been influenced by any other considera tions operating upon those who were politically re sponsible. The inconvenience which rendered the present measure necessary, was solely to be attributed to that delay which had been caused by the conduct of Ministers, and which must become a heavy charge against them ; nor would it avail them to plead that Parliament had sanctioned the delay, and were satis fied with the reasons urged for it, inasmuch as Parlia ment had been deceived by those Noble Lords in the statements made to it, and the hopes which had been erroneously held out. Protesting therefore, against the principles and the arguments assumed by those Noble Lords in justification of their conduct ; and re serving till a future, but early day, that discussion which their conduct must necessarily undergo, far be it from him, by any captious objection to the supply ing the necessities of the public service, to increase the exigency which already pressed heavily enough upon the country. He therefore should of course give his vote for the ltesolution, with the exception that he .hould object to the words of it remaining so general, inasmuch as they were called upon to act un der the necessity of the case ; and they - not, in ,Cy ought the exercise of the power which they were compelled by circumstances to assume, to go beyond the actual , necessity which called for their inte;ference. ' Lord REDESDALE, after admitting that no yi, blame could be imagined to attach to the Noble BA. ron (Grenville), stated, that he did not consider the whole Executive functions as completely suspended. Many of them were still carried on upon the autho rity of the King's political capacity—and it was only necessary to supply the defect in those cases which required the King's personal interference. This was one of those cases— r -but hp suggested, that in point of instead of giving effect to an illegal warrant, it iorm, lg would be' better to order the issue to be made through the medium of the Privy geal, and he hoped that aq Amendment to attain that übject would be moved. Lord GRENVILLE said that the same objection as to the form of the present Resolution, had occurred to.him—and that he would himself have , ed the rnovi. Amendment suggested by the Noble and. Learned Lord, had he not been restrained by the predicament in which he stood, from urging any thing that could by any possibility be construe 4 into a desire to inter ppse unnecessary difficulties. The LORD CHANCEI I LOR was as ready to dp -- to the motives of the Noble Baron (Grenville) could justice _ ( _ as _Noble And Learned F4iend (Redesdalel be. lie admitted, that officers iii such situations as thit pf Auditor of the Exchequer, wereni be guided Arent principles trom those that under special cas must regulate the conduct of the great .2tcFn! W4/OeT .. . • --: di l rr ' . wi ' s • • ;should agree to command the issue of this money , hick had been declared to be necessary for the pia, lie service ? How that necessity had a risen, was 11.7 distinct question, completbly open to discussion on future occasion, when the whole conduct of Min i sters ikhould be brought under the review of their Lordship , In answer to those whomight ask whyhe had not made ;Re of the Great Seal ? he had to observe, that it di , ' not appear to him how he could have employed the Great Seal to draw money for such services as these. lie had thought that the Privy Seal might have been used. and the person holding it, he believed, woul' not have refused ; but the difficulty, of which their Lordships were aware, had arisen, and this applica. tion for the interference of the two Houses had bs. tome necessary. Lord SPENCER preferred the proceeding by Privy Seal Bill to that of giving effect to a Ticasury Warrant, because more similar in principle to a Com. mission for opening the Parliament, and more con sistent with the usual forms of the Exchequer. But he thoqght the whole course adopted by Ministers completely wrong, and it was no slight ;aloof of the most unconstitutional and illegal nature of their pro ceedings, that they bad been checked by such obsta cles as these. It had been said, that the Noble Earl (Westmoreland) who held the Privy Seal, would not have refused to employ it. He himself had held ' Privy Seal, and he referred to the oath ofoffice taken by the Keeper, to see whether there was not some reason to have apprehended a difficulty in that point. The fiords in the oath, to which he particularly re quested the attention of their Lordships, were these, " That the person holding the Privy Seal should use it without the King's special command." _ would not take upon him to determine what construc tion others might put upon these words, but ' thought no power on earth would have induced him to use the Seel without the King's special and direct authority. There was no such clause in the oath taken by the Keeper of the Great seal, but even ' that oath there was one which raised some doubt.- After stating that the conduct of his Noble Friend (Grenville) had been perfectly correct in every parti cular, he did justice to the candour of Ministers, admitting that the vote of this night would not in , least screen their conduct from future investigation but lie would have more applauded that candour, the Noble Secretary (Liverpool) had for the present abstained from that detailed defence of the Minister; into which he had entered. The two Houses had voted, that it was their right and duty to supply , defect of the Royal Authority, but they had not there, tore determined that they should take upon the selves to do an Executive act ; and yet this they were now for the first time called upon to perform, though they had beeq told by the Ministers, that no serious inconvenience could arise from the delay in supplying the defect in the Royal Power ! They were now, Ir the criminal concealment practised by Ministers _ doted to a most dangerous dilemma ; and the Only way to get out of the difficulty was to trace back the steps, and address the Prince of Wale; to assume the Executive Authority, as their ancestor; hifil 444ressed the Prince of Orange in 1688. . Lord REDESDALE explained to the Noble Lore! some part of what he before had observed, aid said, that the signature' of the Regent would have the salvo force and respect as the signature of the King, Earl WESTMORELAND, called on as he had been by the Noble Earl (Spencer,) could not be silent . 'on this 'occasion. He should not, however, go over topics which had already been discussed, but should confine himself merely to the cpcsideration of what nyght have appeared to be the duty of the Privy Seal confided to his care. For one, he should be ready to meet the charge of the Noble Lord, as to the con duct of Ministers in the whole of this transaction ; nay, he challenged inquiry, being confident that it would ap pear that the whole ot- their proceedings had been not only free from blame, but, what was far more, that they had been meritorious. He was free to declare, that so far as he was concerned, and so far as the necessity of coming before Parliament, or of having recourse to the issuing of a warrant by the Lords of the Treasury, could have been averted by the exer t else of the Privy Seal, be, as being entrusted with the keeping of that Seal, should have been willing to have talon the responsibility of affixing the Seal upon himself. Ministers had a duty to perform; they must have performed that duty, or they mulct have let it alone—if they did perform it, they thereby incurred a great responsibility—but the only question was, would they incur this zesprmsi bility for the good of the country, trusting to the country for an indempity—or would they desert their duty, and leave the country to its fate in a time of emergency ?—He would have thought himself un worthy of the trust reposed in him could he have he sitated about encountering this responsibility; and it was only from the scruples of another person, whose province it was to prepare the Bill, that he had not, by taking the responsibility on himself, prevented the necessity of the present application to Parliament.— As to the oath alluded to by the Noble Earl, he could only say, that the duty of Privy Seal was pointed out by an explanatory Act of Parliament, referring him to look at the Signet, which, if regular, was all Chit was required, so that the duty of the Privy Seal seemed rather of a ministerial nature. Lord HOLLAND wished that the Noble Earl, like the Noble and Learned Lord late on the Wool sack, had confined himself strictly to the question be.: fore the House, leaving the merits or demerits of Mi nisters to be considered on some future occasion.— He, however, shoold follow the example of the Noble and Learned Lord, and should leave the conduct of Ministers to be judged of in its proper place. He could not help, hoWever, expressing his surprize at the suggestion of another Noble and Learned Lord (Redesdale) that the Houle should issue its orders to the Privy Seal to act in this matter contrary to their oaths of office ; he was so great an enemy to the dispensing with oaths appointed to be taken by per,, sons in other circumstances I (a largh.) That Noble and Learned 1.,0rd had also thought tnat his Noble Friend (Earl Spencer) had seen a complacency in the Noble and Learned Lord's countenance, in con sequence of a supposed concurrence in some of the statements of that Noble and Learned Lord.— Could the Noble and Learned Lord, or could the llouse suppose that he (Lord Holland) should feel complacency either in his face of in his heart, at find ing not 4 single arsoment or stattement of his merited to; but every single part of his atatentent of the other a Ystied 44 frorS - 4! i.Pffi% teilloq had he 7 -- . A; ' and wl l II II LIMM.I°I . P4RLI4III.EIY77/11fr pßoqzzapvcr. t est h 111 ose t solved i HOW:* PP LORDS, JANUARY S. me to after tl itmyrn ENCES. i I reiallea, were 'A , ' theriiiir,h the i coaatence in I f . •nagin g Peers ',, Lord Camden conferenFe seir s tain . Res()lutio the Eitchequet *V phich the spared. The Resolu 1 . upon the table On •the mot was then sent 1 of Commons, " tions, which ' i ' : the conference The Messer . •naged the fit this; arid, to I Chamber. Op their re Lordship, the , • .Commons in matter of the ' . and had rctur -. livered on tha , made by their the concurien ‘ The LOW tion of the Hr proceeding wl of their Lord admitting vot mate to their ciAy,,give noti .ing the notice the considerai for every Not hilly aware o topic of very Lord MUI botke to whi, ; pot be postpc ,tiered the clue deration, at I fore, an.ziotta, .1 all due celetll The Earl any occasion . • under a secot any question ... Influence the manner in w: jects j which of At cour At this time I •i represent in .ble for those tom se whicl novel situatia *which had lx 1 If such ame and Learned urination of 1: protest ; for t question corn procee.lings ( tally tmcertai adopt, and et sent Peers sh, brought up, passed in the The Duke V' state those n vote for the been submitt the House b: pnol,) and a ;he same int( wards search the Report v between the under these •. bound to pil as it did by ' deciding in f time, he w 4; •i under their: himself oblig the notice he that stlliect. 'The Earl, eirous of sec and Learned that Honse, the right of tance, and hI would take a 1 an early peri any material Lord GR: be gave last on the questi , • rade remain the Nohje 55., 0 4 tliscustionprf lie business I upon dirk co e would h. , . sold he p' The Duki 1+ self iii sou ordships tai , •eL quest i on i y individtia ~ . every Peer ienpri- e ino;. _...:, btrnitte.l to aid no ii • .- k • esubjeet of t i ne gres-, eireuntstanees took nposk the : was inspossibletfor. act of to as great as that what bad been se- It,wasTaicessary, iivor f der . it was impossible for mighk he held io 1/89 t I, Indeed, my Lords, a Commission should issue kiled in the measures impossible to obtain the Sigr in a Committee where termined to put the Great I think it was unfair whih Lord Thurlow, the . e? . I u Ia tl ers ps. ade did the se. eer uld *sr bi- y a ury Dm. on. ' But tart the )ro- sta. :arl not the ken nne re. iese, not He rue- the Nina reet path n in t.— lend arti. I in the ion .; r, if sent nen had r the 'ere. is Nero ions yin' by 115. only their : the 'seed ,or Paid, AM* haat ilent . over Auld what Seal I T to