Star. — London, England, 1809-02-01 00:00:00

cap one gr _• , ,(l cause--s he . was figlajog far lA* ca..; ,he ca. was fi g hting against an invader. In a eoentrf ike t his, i t must be unnecessary to argue that there s se ntiment which attaches us to the mere i a l, l3 :l7l rfui to that what is call ed our, country is dear tous l o r no other reason , than that it is our country represented, n Spa in indeed wouldbeas contemptible as she hai se nted,if her f ee lings had not revoked from her iov;i..l • as such, if she had wanted any other cause er t h an glut foreign invasion of her soil. This attach- t to country, as such, has ever distinguished every c i v ilized soci ety • it has raved survived conquest itself. There is another accusation brought against Ministers, w l. I I is, that our tone is too high for our sitilation, ac t hat we a re are a sinking country, and that nothing on s ave us from perdition. As a person in a ship is ; ce , sible to the motion of that ship, so I must sup 4-„lit i s w ith me, for I must confess that I am not sen r. o f degra dation of the country. I cannot per tble th e ‘ „ i d e m yself that we are so degraded. If we 'are however, I trust that one of the last qualities of which we shall divest ourselves—one of the last ar ti,i,:s which we shall throw overboard in the hopes of our burthen, will be our honour and good ghtening ;iith. Mr. Canning here concluded, by. moving an Address to his Majesty, expressive of the approbation da le House, that bis Majesty had put an immediate err to the Overtures as soon as the enemy had refu sc.l to admit the acting . Government of Spain as a arty te the NeEo ßE cia.A.Dtion. m. WHIT begged leave to deCline en. ter aig at large into the nature of the allusions of in dividuals on the subject of .the late negotiation, al tli ugh be retained all the sentiments which he had ever e xpressed on that subject ; and he could not help lamenting that they had not been more attended to by t h ou wh o had power to g ive them force by their adqnion at that period. I he Right Hon. Gentle man, in the course of a speech certainly replete with e loquence, had said some things, which, if the prin. e iple of them had been followed sixteen years ago, E ur ope would not be in its present state, :he Houk: of Bourbon would not have been overthrown, Bona- Fare might have remained in the obscurity in which be eas born, and this country might have been in a sate of glory, the like. to which had never yet ap tnred in any empire upon earth ; for the Right 1 3 2.111. Gentleman had said to-night, that whatever Gwernment a Nation chooses, and presents to you h: herself, that Government you Are bound to take. we had but followed that principle sixteen years the world might have been now at peace. But remembered the time when that doctrine was ntained in the House of Commons, it was received those who were in power at that time (and who :intimately always succeeded in convincing a ma. ity of the House), not only with disapprobation, they held up those who maintained it as per hostile to the interests of their country ; upon tick we were hurried and precipitated into a war, object of which not only was never gained, but I been reversed ; and, from the dangers of which country is not free at the present moment. He ' with the Right Honourable Gentleman en „ and wished to HEAVBN the country had acted in that principle sixteen years ago ; it was indeed t'ic.,•.l,ble how much bloodshed might have been 2d by it—he meant the principle that we had Jung to do with the choke of any nation in its Go ; what could it be to us whether the Spa lite, r a - 'i.c had A predeliction for Ferdinand the VII. f,,:. 12 - :,11-1:s tit; IV. ; and therefore the Right Hon. tienhe VW: properly, laid down a principle irh ann.eies to this—we will support Spain in the salt cause, ii ,der the Government and neder the. of I ::rdinand the VII. instead cf,. Charles . because we, hot because the Spani.sli Ferciinand VII. to Char'le's IV. He cred ent!r , :tv of those sentiments of the Right iurabie Gentleman, and could not help observ that the wedd had at present Much 7o deplore, :count of these sentiments not having been acted 511:iCen years ago. He agreed also with the 3 lion. Gentleman, tht t, after the answer which :cur:led to us tr;-m Erfurth, evhich proposed that hid ne::•ociate without Spain, further intercourse trance on that stiyct, was out of the question. they had said 44 70U must abandon Spain," it absolutely impossible for us, with honour, the Lelara:ion we hid made, to proceed one ii tier in such a negociation ; but, although • most clearly of - that opinion, he could •1 ? observing, that the tone of the Dispatch Right houourable Gentleman (not proceed from himself of course, but from A: l er:l:eat of which he was only a Member) ft ci that species of arrogance which was 1 1"c,y to provoke a haughty return ; for the o:c of the. affairs of Statei possessed the leei:r.gs as private individuals, and harshness hanlinecs. And here he could not help vales of the language of the Right Hon. :roan hit Session of Parliament—that we i;l,:craizi..date ourselv es t o th e o r de r o f thin g s •`l' was an excuse for what we were then doing, ''' . steed much in need of the doctrine E'd by such a sentence, to keep our conduct in , And yet the Right Honourable Gen "' ••is official language, had described the bo:laparte towards Spain as amparalleled of nations. 'lbis was pretty bold in us had done with respect to Denmark.— and so had the other nations of r.SGreat to the late Catharine of Rus. • ;e s in some respects it was not inappro _ • ~ne Frederick the 3d of Prussia had, by .! . nat of mankind, obtained the title of • successor, and our then ally the Ern •":.ria, as well as the Empress of Russia, ril e Poland between them, and to imprison had yet we talked of the conduct of 80. • ',.i y - qralleled in the history of nations ! We around us before we indulged ourselves ~gojicent expressions—we should look at coilduct in India, and perhaps we might Parallel to almost any atrocity whatsoever! e.,1 look to the conduct of those Powers Nve were afterwards most friendly Allies, •e'• in the North of Earle, and there we prallels to the atrocity of Bonaparte. hok to our own conduct in the East, should fi n d a para ll e l to t h e con d uct o f _ W.: sho u ld l oo k to t h e con d uct o f t h e , hernselves i n South .America, and there .!"'d ~i trccities that were a parallel to the BoaLparte. If we thought that Paola ~:e nigh, which was, that we should leave him to make what terms of peace he can obtain. He thought that we had lust a good opportunity to assist Spain when Jo seph Bonaparte fled from Madrid, for at that period he. believed the Spaniai ds to have been more hostile to the views of Bonaparte, and much more likely to have thwai ted them, than they are at present. He saw no pace in the reannar in which we appeared to wish to ai d' ROMAII Catholic superstition in Spain, while we were denying to the Catholics of Ireland the common rights of citizens. He lemented that the Right Fiore Gentleman did. not find it agree ahle to his colleagues, that he should do justice to his own feeliegs by 72 dmi:ting the Catholics into a participation of rights with ourselves ; nor WAS it a thing to he admixed tha: there is now a person who has taken the oath of a Privy Councillor (that is, an adviser of his Majesty) who stands in a situation which must he very discouraging to the Irish Catholics, for he had declared that 44 an Irishman and a Rebel are' synonymous terms." He owned it appeared to him most extraordinary that those very men, many of whom we had lately been thanking for the battles they had been fighting for us, should still be deprived of some 'of the common rights of Citizens. He trusted that this subject would be brought before the House in the course of the present Sessions. With regard to ,the conduct of his Majesty's Government towards Spain, he admitted they did not appear to be guided by that selfishness which bed directed their. actions' with other powers ; butehey were much too sanguine, and had acted upon wrong information, and gross misrepresentation. As to Yertugal, he might fairly anticipate the recapture of that country by the French —and as to the expeditions which were now- sending' out, he did not thee mean to ask for any information on the subject, but .recommended to his Majesty's Ministers not to send out any more. expeditions to Spain, until they should have-better information of the views and intentions of the people of thet country. —He concluded by moving, as an amendment to the Address, " That this House having taken into their most serious consideration the papers, &c. laid by his Majesty's command before this House, relat ing to the overtures for peace from the two Emperors at Erfurth, it does not appear to this House that any such disgrace • was attached to this country in the abandonment of the Spanish cause, so as to prevent the entering into such negociation that the proposi tion for including the Junta of Government in the name of Ferdinandl. in such negociation, was unwise and impolitic ; and that decisive steps ought to have been immediately taken for entering into a negoeia don which might uphold the interests of the empire, and the glory of his Majesty's Crowti." Mr. PONSONBY said that it was impossible, from the -reat respect he bore his Honourable Friend, apt.. gt. Gentlemen were nit pitied to give-theii'oPinions, end defiver their sentiments- on every petit that was in any way connected with the question; or Materially coticemed the welfare and interests of the country. His Hen. Friend hadtherefore, he -conteived; a right to speak on the 'subject of the Catholics of Ireland; as they had been particularlV mentioned and 'alluded by Bonapeyte. lie perfectly coincided in opinim with his Honourable Friend who moved the amend ment on this motion for an address, and would with him think it right to listen to trutlieven in in enemy. For whatever might be the generatopinion entertained by Hon. Members en either side of the. House, as to + Bonaparte's merits, he believed it must on al; bands be agreed that he ew perfectly well howl° accom plish the aims tend ends he ha in view,-and as he had chosen to give a taunt on thOratirs of Ireland, it was evident he had done so, because he thought the Ro man Catholics believ'ect themselves to be hardly dealt with by this government ; and he would <n ftr take a hint from him as to advise his Majesty's MinisteYs to lose no time in endeavouritig to remove those anxie ties and animosities which unforitmately existed be fore it should be too late. Having Made nese ob servations, he should beg to say a few words on the subject of the modem then before the - House. For his own past, front the first mention of - the applica tions of the Spaniards to this country for assistance, he could never place any reLance on Spanish pa friotisin. He could not think' it was a. plant, that could ever thrive in such a soil as Spain, lei & lad. for such a Length of tithe groaned under -theWitight and grasp of the severest despotism„ headed by Mit mast dreadful and intolerable of all meststiers-;.:thit disgrace to humanity, and terror of mankind:43e In .qualuon. He never could suppose, that a: spspp i le so sunk in indolence as the great mass ofthe Spant.. na 7 Lion had been, and bowed down by the arbitrary man. dates of one of the most despotic Gbverntnents in Eu rope, for more thad a centery, count aC once; become so sensible ot sbeardour of patriotism, as to enabk them to make a stand against the French, headed by one of tbe nblest.and greatest Generals the world had ever known: He could not, therefore, ever indulge the hope of reaching+ that fool's paradise, with the attainment of which the people 'of this country had for the last fifteen yeprs beet pleased to flatter themselves. He was sorry to observe this self delusioncontinued still so prevalent ; but he hoped yet that we were not such as the wise man had described, al that ifpounded - in a mortar, yet would not foolishness depart from us." Mi. Tinters had from time to time held out various boasts, hat we were on the pointofarriving at the goal ofsuccess, but they had all vanished into air. If the question were, whether it would not be desirable to cut off Spaifrom France as a political measure, no question co ed be held out that would be More easily or more unani.: that be could 'differ from him, as he did on the pre sent occasion, without assigning his reasons for so dn. ing. Although he seldom approved of the conduct of his Majesty's Ministers, yet he thought they were right upon this occasion to come to an ammediate mously decided ; but the urtftirtunit; devotion hich had so long prevailed in Spain made this' impossible ; and. the people of That country felt too severely its, effects to be animated *Rh that kind of ipitit, with. out which such an at must be preixitterotts ! t 'he • cl-rstanding of the views of those powers which pro posed pace. He was convinced that no tone, how ever moderate, could have procured the country a peace consistent with its ; but still, he disap proved extremely of using that stile in diplomatic car-. respondence, which seemed much like the lan guage that was often used in that Wo r it e tse, against pa • Right Honourable A (Mr - Carmine had. to *serve his own ptwpoio that fright, used the patriotic axiom ;hat no peopli.aght to have i Government f oreac k en them but *Wt they chose for tbestselvea." ;. If *is had heed =teak. to -by tiatittersiTthe cam nienceinent of the French Revolution, we should not have been at war at this sassasat. He wished, bow: • • . • ; ,4 .. • - . . •a 0 • • o!' 2 .' 1 $-"•'' 3". _L•ti 1) " '"• impibinourthearkeirectln 4ippOpskeattdoetli:Deciii)uberseugtili t ti 4ashVates saistribi ft*, 1/111.141 . 0ri - 00 5 411**orr to 1114 46 " • , it wciedd weevienk thiatrocities ct. see- nation,- and'' ratteirhich bate itgieatisation negbcieting *out I *Om 'Damper* thit . would endestakio46 d- "ilk with retributive jtiatice the lniqUities of another. '; the s'estOretiOti sof peace to the evorkl. The question ' rivir OE4O from nragmutiMity. Aro eieesee cnmes if e vje thtmght to answe:llafit:hiSPltovncitionucrjemes nod henid ; sigiSPeiti iras not to be decided by negotiation, but stood there were BulletineneegYarrivedirott rrance, "we deceived mere i lj r by the farce of.arms,farßoeaparte had pleged and in Poisossion of 'Ministers, in which Salami 'rte : hurshkes, and theiruth was not in us."—(A m il d. Mtn" Is strongly to his own. Bengt, aniFteTrance, hatto*l' jd ;great degree,of respect and admifltion He did not wonder. at the smile which some gentle. that he would ?lade the CroWn of Spain on the head ',of thebeltairiretr.andconduct ofOur brays troops, . men were pleased t o i n d u l ge at t h at expression• but of hishrother, as this country could, be' pledged to as- ! porilcularly of ' the gallant Geneva' . Who hid he " • he confessed, th at h e 'was struck with the denjolicitp silt Spain: ke could not be expected inuuediately, cently fallen, and whose loss we had so heavily to and the force of that sentence, which he was at liberty to abandon the pledge he had 'so . openit and so re- ; p_ lame . He was, however, much afraid that the' pre, to say, because it was not his own; andhesaidivi given,cenllyneither could this countryabandon Spain, snit -Ministers were such as were by no means fi ed a view .of making us look at things as they are in without at the same time abandoning her honour to brit's . the country With honour out of its preseue themselves, not as theymight be painted by our fancy; and her best interests. I difficulties. He thought they had taken upon therti then should we see,that although we are rich andpower- MaCROAKER said he wis as t on ished to hear such . a most extensive and tremendous responsibility. ful at home,yet abroadvie were become comparatively- arguments as those which had been used by the Ho- the rutsumed 'patriotism of the Spaniards had )c.itl insignificant, While the whole of Europe was now ; nourable Gentleman who spoke last but one (Mr. listenedto,takenup and acted onupnn light grounds,he under the direction of Bonaparte. He then proceed.. Whitbread). If he had found a p ara ll e l for the atro.,; did not know any punishment that could be too sew ?re . ed to observe on the correspondence on the occasion cities of t he Fren c h in any proceedings of this coon- for them: It was their duty to consider well-whether of the overture from Erfurth, and thought much try, which be did not think was possible, he believed they would be able to take possession of .Speie ; of the language of the Right Honourable Gentle- the Honourable Gentleman would find it difficult in to send 500,000 men thither to gain possession of the man highly censurable, especially that studied insult the annals of the British Legislature to find a paral- country, and to fortify the passes. If our breve sob'. which was offered to Bonaparte in the last dispatch lel to his own speech. He had owned, he expected -diem had been sent even in such numbers as to enable to the Count Romanzow, by which he was remind- to .be in a very small minority, and in his opinion the them to have gloriously fallen in the field, and - not the ed, that we looked upon him as a person whose power Honourable Gentleman ought to be to ; for if the victims of disease and misery, it would have been was not to be acknowledged in any shape. This, he House should agree to his amendment, they would some small matter of consolatien, the:JO pesheas nee thought, could answer no good purpose, but might shew themselves not only the o sinking nation" he of excuse ; but to send an army in such numbers, produce very bad effects, and it came with a very had described, but absolutely sunken to such a degree and under such circumstances, that withohe assistance ill grace from those Ministers who had acknowledged 'as he hoped never would be the case of this great and of the Spaniards, they could not drive the Frenza Bunaparte as First Consul of France in Th e T r e at y of , powerf u l country. He said Ministers had done wisely from Spain, when they did not amount to more rhea Amiens ; and that was the case of the Chancellor of in getting rid of the Negociation in the speediest man- , 40;000 men, the present Ministers were neither lit to • the Exchequer, who held a considerable office under nor possible . As to what the Honourable Gentleman fgo on with the management of the affairs of the Government at that time ; and therefore he could (Mr. Whitbread) had observed respecting the Ro- country in war or peace. They had grafted the suc not help recommending to the Right Honourable j man Catholics of li:dand, he said, Bonaparte, in his cess, the character and the honour of England on Gentleman (Mr. Canning), to refrain from that sar- ! declaration respecting them, meant nothing further that rotten plank, despotism and she caste style, which, although it might be evidence of than merely to exasperate one party against the other. and unless we could again establish that governmeat a lively fancy, was ill-suited to the graxity of a The Hon. General MATTHEW spoke very lin Spain, our efforts were freitless, and we must give statesman ; for 'although it might please a few of his warmly in favour of the Roman Catholics of Ireland.', it up. With respect to sending money to the Spa own friends, it must be a great blemi s h in the opinion He alluded to the proceedings in Ireland in the year niards, instead of doing so from the pockets of the of the judicious, and by no means well ph4ced when 17 9 8, and said there never had been any tyranny , people of this country, they should have restored it appeared in diplomatic correspondence; and there- carried to a higher pitch than under the British Go- , those millions which had been taken as dreits of fore, he should have thought the observations of the veinment, when headed by Lord Camden. assisted by , the Admiralty, by the shameful capture of the Spa. Right Hon. Gentleman on the whim:idea: might have the Noble Lord opposite to him (Lord Castlereagh), nish frigates, witiiout any declaration of war, and been very well spared. He thought we could not pro- they foot provoted the people to resistance, and then by that means put into his Majesty's private purse. fit much by accusing our adversaries with insincerity murdered them.—(4 &ecru/ rey of Order, Order.) IHe felt himself obliged to his Honourable Friend fir in their dispatches in negotiations for peace, for we The SPEAKER seid, he thought it his duty to ;having moved the amendment to the address, but he had not only been insincere ourselves, but we had the ask the Honourable Mernbqr if he thought what - he ; should have been much_ more pleased, if, instead of political profligacy to avow it ; of this there were ,was then saying was at all applies:lsle to the question that amendment, he had at once boldly brought for more instances than could be easily enumeratedes— before the House? j ward a remonstrance to his Majesty, stating the inade- Axemarkable one was, that of a declaration made by General MXFTHEW answered, that etleos had I citiacy of the present Ministers to fill the important my Lord Melville, who had publicly said, that we spoken about the Roman Catholics of Ireland, and j stations in which they had been placed, and he would had had a lucky escape by the breaking off of the heiLed nn equal tight to do :he same, unless one side ; have seconded it'*ith infinitely more satisfaction. He Negociation. He .did not speak personally or the of the House was to be indtii:!ed in speaking on the , was now called on for an Address of Thanks, when Right Honourable Gentleman, but generally of Go. subject, &end not the other. - [Here was a general cry he had no thanks to give. He should rather wisinto vernment ; and he was bound to say, that our Nego. of Order, Order! Chair, Clia.r.j see those removed from hisdidajesty's councils who ciation had been carried on, not in the true spirit of , The SPEAKER said, that after what lie had be- I had kept the truth from his royalears, and filled them negociation, which was that of a conciliatory spirit, fore obServed, it was for the House to determine how with fables which had operated as a 4 . 6 leprous distill 'but was carried on in a spirit of hostility and rancoui , farahe,Hon. Member was right or otherwise. ment" on the honour and interests of the empire.— by which, while it is indulged in, Peace will be unat- . Sir F. BI RDETT said, he had never vet deliver- Of all those' dethroned monarchs with whose fate , tainable. He did not by any means disapprove of the ed his sentiments en this subject; and as_lie had not modern history was so replete, there was not one of care which we had taken of the interests of Spain in the tormed the sanguine hopes on the state of our con- them who had not fallen, a sacrifice to a concealment late Negociation, but saw no reason why we had not nexion with Swim which he understood many personslof the truth from them, respecting theii most impors appeared equally anxious for the fate of Portugal, for had done, he could not suffer the present question to la nd and vital interests. They have all been betrayed, the House of Braganza had a much stronger claim go to a vote, without delivering his opinion on it. and frequently deserted by time-serving courtiers end , upon our solicitude, and upon our aid too, than the He had at all times the greatest deference .for tne a d u lating sycophants, and happy would it be if their House of Aqui ins. As to Sweden, we should not Speaker's judgment, but he submitted to his consider- I fate should be a warning to others. The Right Ho mention it, after What the Right Hon. Gentleman had ation, whether on a question of Addresses, which he I,nourable Secretary (Mr. Canning), had said he dil said on the first night of the Session, the substance of had always looked upon as a • general subjettO Hon. j not think this empire was sinking. The Right Hon. Gentleman might, perhaps, himself be tiling, bat he could assure him his country was sinking very fast and very deep, yet strange it was to behold ; but things were represented totally different to *hat they really are.; and we now, without surprize, hear the mere entrance into a country termed conqueit, and retreat represented as victory. With these impressions in his mind, he heartily concurred in the amendment propoied by his Honourable 'Friend; but would much rather it had been a remonstrance. Mr. J. C. BERE'3FORD spoke at some length in favour of the conduct of Nliaisi.ers, anti thought they had acted right in as speedily as possible getting rid of the negotiation. Engiand's only daoger would he a peace with France ; tor such an event would only be a virtual surrauier of England. • France coo ly never injure us without a superior navy ; and that without a fallacious peace she could never obtain.— He should therefore vote for the address. Lord POR.CriESTE.R disapproved the 'amend. went, particularly the latter part, which so emrhati cally required his Majesty to avail himself of any re ; turn of opportunities for a negotiation of peace. HI thought peace desirable, but unless we wished 'to re ; peat that act of political imbecility, the Peace of Ameins, we should not appear too anxious for that I event. As long as Spain could maintain the present contest, we could not, he thought, honourably with. draw our assistance. He should therefore vote for the address. , . Lord HENRY PETTY said, it was nnnecessar for him to trouble the House with many ob,ervationc, because it was clear the alarm had taken pi ice in the country since the successful escape of our army. H e must, however, shortly say on what ground he felt it hii duty not to concur in the amendment of his Ho. nourable Friend, with whom he generally agreed on political questions. He was convinced from ence of the conduct of Bonaparte, that the overtures made at the time they were, could not 'be accepted without an abandonment of Spain ; for if it had been entered upon, it would have induced the Spaniards to, suspect/ our sincerity in.their must, and Bonaparte Iwould have used it as an argument to foment that suspicion. This country had a character to gain with I respect to Spain, and it was therefore necessary we I should convince the Spaniards we did not carit,itw the war for our own selfish interests. He thought, . therefore, the overtures for negotiation should be'ai . speedily rejected aspossible. e could not, however*, approve the language in which they had been clout; for the retort used by the Right Honourable Secret, must by the two Emmors be taken as matter" of iusuk and as the Right I•ciorable - Secretary had allowed the overture was not -liable to exteptien, his Lon!, ship saw no reason why it -should not have been met on equal terms of conciliation. If the latter part of the Address meant that we should continue at war in the same way it had been carried on for the last six months, he should .protest against it. He was not surprised the state.of the country should have ed the : Honourable Baronet to describe, in ay. of great eloquence, the alarm which he conceived, and he concurred with him in those sentiments which he had so fully expressed. Mr. CANNING expressed treat surprixe drat the Noble Lord should have adopted, in the unqualified manner he had done, the opinions of the Hon. Baronet wishlespect tq the situatioh of the cougar,. which ~...~~' icr herself; that U we had but ago, the world remembered maintained in tl ly those who tnfortunately a 'urity of the H tat they held sons hostile to ,ich we were object of a ',ad been never country is need with tl y, and wisl • pan that prim aculable hi ved by it-1 .:hing to rnmela ; fcr %It veorle ha for Charl tleman ita ich arr...z;n; escat cause, me of 1'4.1 . be c ple prefer pored er.ti: nnurable G that the account of SIIZCCII Hon. G rezzrned t ;zooid neg France c r th e y h i . absol • the deci tit:ther i Was mos help obse , e Right Cover = fuil et' likely t o: feelir.gs ' ed ha l g notiel leman d accon; :z.h was ::en ;re ; o d by nance. it' ;;., • ' d ?;r el .e r a j . • diet rlc s ; • a ruagt col a pa. r) alc :es td d fi t. • I I . \t 1 1 1 t , , I . r it U