Star. — London, England, 1816-06-21 00:00:00

preto7atives of the Crewn—that no future sinecores should be mated ; ;rot 1w had not expected to see the day when an office even necessary in itself—(but as to that lie would speak by and bye)—should be created a sinecure in the Principal. and an office in the Deputy, and the public burthened with the pay ment of bath — (Hear. hear.) • In the second of the Resolutions adopted in 1810, in consequence of the Report of the Finance Committee, p. 413, it was re solved by the House that t ffices should be reduced to that expense to the public which was really incurred by the discharge of them. With respect to the office of Vice Treasurer, there was no responsibility at tached to it ; and Moo° a year, the sum stated by the Right Hon. Gentleman as in ccattemplation to be given to the Deputy, and whiCh might be considered thet efore as the estimate of that Right Hon. Gen thanan of what was a Air remuneration—was, in his awn ( T inian, an adequate compensation to a person ci; a csodition in life sufficiently high todischarge the duties of that purely Ministerial office. There was a Commission now sitting, a triumvirate to whom were delegated the power of examining into the whole expenditure of the country, for the purpose of punting out what could admit of retrenchment, and doing what had usually been done by a Committee of the House; and ice had no doubt they would exe cute the duties committed to them in the mode eio petted from them—(Hear, and a laugh.) Was it not astonishing that while such a Committee was cutting don every thing superabundant and beyond what' was required in our expenditure on the one hand, there should be such a rich harvest as this preparing for them on the other-(Heor, hear.) Wbat motive co'ild there be for appointing a Deputy, but that of bringing a principal away from his duties ? The office of the Vice Treasurer was purely. Ministerial ; and he had to issue no money but on the warrant of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. What bad be to do here? His business was to . watch over the issue of money in Ireland exclusively. The salary at which the office ought to be executed was the salary of the Deputy, and pot that of the principal. It was a new thing in this country to bring an additional placeman into the House, ..here be had no dillies to discharge, and where he could nut come without neglecting those duties for which he was appointed. He had no objection to the power of appointing a Clerk to officiate in case of sickness or accident, but that person ought to be paid at the expense of his prit.cipal. The 1-lonour.ble Gentleman concluded by moving an Amendment to the Clause authorising the issue of money fut the expenses of the Vice Trea surer's Establishment, the effect of which was to ex• c;ct,:c hum t!-.e expeioes to be allowed that of the al• lowJnce to the th•put y —Void cheering.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said hls Hon. Friend in acknowledging that he saw tto objection to the ailowanace of a Deputy, pro vided tie was paid by the Vice Treasurer, had put thar qu'ltion oq very narrow grounds. This was giving up the question of so attaching the Vice Trea surer to Ireland ; that he should not be removed from it on silly groenda. The question was not now whe ther he should be allowed the assistance of a Deputy in any case whatever, but simply whether the re duced salary of se2ooo should be farther charged with that which was necessary for the adequate pet. formance of the duties by Deputy of an office to which no one man could be supposed able at all times m give an incessant and unremitting attention ? His Honourable Fiieoti had stated that the proposed al lowance to the Deputy of £IOOO, which, however, was no part of the Bill, but a subject at the lutuie discretion of the 'freasury—(He.sr, hear, from Me Op positi") might be taken as an admission that this was the sum required for the execution of the office. But, in the first place, he would deny that the Vice- Treasurer had no actual duties to discharge, and that hit office was a sinecure. In all ordinary times the Principal would have to discharge the duties, and the Deputy was only appointed to supply his place in.thom times when he happened to be absent. But even suppling the duties to be habitually discharged by the Deputy, his Honourable Friend would observe that the Principal was charged with the whole re sponsibility of tie Deputy. Was it the same thing to entrust the responsibility of the office to a person with a salary of £IOOO alone, and to give £IOOO a year to a Deputy, under the responsibility of a per son receiving a larger salary, and having the direc tion and controul of that Deputy. Mr. TIERNEY said, in considering the present question, it was material to understand this distinc tion : the present was not to be viewed as one of the great sinecures for life, but as a sinecure Suring plea sure ; and therefore the person who tilled it ought to }mire no Deputy whatever. However, he had no ob j iction to allow him a Deploy, under particular cir cumstances. not it would be a waste of the public money to pay a Deputy not appointed for the conve nience of the public, but for the convenience of an in dividual who was already overpaid -- (Hear, hear.). — Ministers had thought it would be more palateable to the House not to name railooo as the salary of the Dzptity, but to obtain a discretionary power to give whatever the Treasury pleased. They had however sufficient specimens of the discretion of the Gentle men at the head of the Treasury to enable them to anticipate the result without much difficulty, that £IOOO a-year was to be given to a Deputy, in order to enable the principal to quit Ireland, where alone he had duties to discharge. This was what they were sow called on to vote. There was not a man in England who would misunderstand that vote.— This Bill had brought his Majesty's Ministers into great waits in the public opinion.—(Hear, hear.) — And by the vote to be given either they would be disgraced or the House would be disgraced.—(Hear,' 13y that vote it would be seen whether they were to be held up alone to ti:z shame which was so richly their due, or whether the House were to parti. cipate with them in their disgrace, and to record that oisatace for the benefit of their Constituents.— (Thar, hear.) Lora C Ab r LE R E AG H said Ministers had not con sidered this su s bjec t with reference to one branch only of the public service; they could not discharge altoge ther from their minds the general coustitatioa of Ire land, and the various duties connected with that country which bad to be discharged in that'Houses It would be a prejudice to the public service of Ire. land, if no individuals of that rank in the State which was known by the appellation of Privy Councillors vete to be in offices considered as integral parts of dovernment. to aid Minister: in the discharge of their functions. The Right Honourablet entle:nan (Mr. Tierney) had seemed rather to pride himself on the circumstance, that when he h eld an o ffi ce i n this country he did aot embarrass his Deputy in the dis charge of the functions belonging to it. He had no doubt that the Right Honourable Geni!eman did not conceive he was acting on any venal principle in ae cepting of a saltily of four thousand isounds a year for an office in which, strictly speaking, he coUld render no adequate remuneration ; because it was known that many important services, besides those more immediately connected with their offices were in various modes performed by officers of the rank of Privy Councillors. He would ask whether it hark ever been the practice of this country to make an of ficer with a very moderate salary to pay also his De puty ? If the House had thought fit to grant this Officer a very large and liberal salary, it might have been contended that the public should not also pay the Deputy; but •as the salary had been cut down to 02000 a year, he did not think it could be con tended that a gentleman of character and respectabi lity would be sufficiently paid if a deduction was to be made for a Deputy. It was to be recollected, that a Deputy was absolutely necessary to the exis tence of this office, for the issue of money was of such urgency as not even to admit of a momentary delay. The question as to the salary of the Deputy involved also the competency of this officer to sit in Parliament; for if it was to be decided that the offi cer should pay his own Deputy, the office would not he worth the acceptance of such persons as would find their way into that House. The question was, whether there should he any representation of the Irish Government in that House ? or whether it should be degraded, from its station in the_ Empire It was eminently unfair to look at the proposition as an in crease of the influence of the Crown. It was not a creation, but a modification and regulation of offices. It was a measure favourable to public economy, and a diminution of the influence of the Crown. It was a reductioi4 of five offices which might be held by Members of Parliament, and was so far beneficial to the liberties of the people, as a reduction of the in fluence of the Crown could be so. It was to be re membered din the United Parliament had passed Bill by which twenty placemen under the Irish Go. vernment might hold seats in that House; but after this Bill, even including , the Vice-Treasurer, there would be only seven. He therefore thought the ob jection to the clause was an unfair advantage taken of the change of officers, to attack his Majesty's Go. vernnient, because this was a subject on which Par liament was particularly jealous. As to the Resolu tion which had been read by the Honourable Gentle man who moved the amendment, a resolution which had been adopted by the House, as to the diminu tion of the influence of the Crown by the abolition of sinecures, it formed only one branch of an extensive system, which would in other respects have much in creased that influence, by authorising the King to r bestow pensions on officers who had served the State for a certain number of years. It was therefore not fair to take that Resolution, insulated from the sys- I tem by which it was to have been followed up. He would fairly appeal to the House, whether it could be said that the Bill would create any increase of the influence of the Crown, and whether tie adoption of the amendment would not break down altogether the Irish Soverninent in that House? Mr. STUART WORTLEY agreed that k would .be of service to the Irish Government that the Vice 'Treasurer should sit in that House, but he conceived that to oblige this Officer to pay his Deputy, would not exclude him from the House, especially as it would be in the power of Government to bestow the office of Vice•Chaucellor on a person who was also a Lord of the Treasury. Unless he heard any thing to I prove that these offices were incompatible with one Another, he should support the amendment. Hon. JOHN WILLIAM WARD [amidst cries of Question, Question, withdraw] said, it was Abe duty I o f the House to be vigilant to prevent an increase of public expenditure, or of the hilluei.ce of the Crown. But in the present case, he thought the jealousy which had been shewn was unfounded.—( Hear, how, from the Opposition side.)—He, howev.2r, respected that jealous', as it well became the Ht,use, which was the chief guardian of public independence, and the only guardian of the public purse. He thought it necessary to say a few words to explain his vote, be causs a sort of accusatory tone had been assumed towards the supporters of the measure—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition)—in a sufficiently Parliamen tary, but in a sufficiently intelligible way. He should attempt to prove that the office, which was created by the Bill, did not take any money unnecessarily out of the pocket of the public, nor add any thing unnecessarily to the influence of the Crown. He thought his Noble Friend below him (Lord Castle. reagh) had taken the true view of the question— (Laughing from the Opposition side)—and to that view he had little to add. He was glad that an ar- Kumeot which had been used bad been abandoned. It had been said, that the salary of the offi(e should be large, because it was an office of trust ;' the defi nition of an office of trust was, that the holder of it might cheat the public if be would. Now in this sense the Vice-Treasurer did not hold an office of trust. The true and manly defence for the office was that of his Noble Friend (Lord Castlereagh), via. that it was improper to make a further reduction in the official situations of Ireland which had seats in that House. He believed it was agreed ma hands that some Officers of the Crown should have seats in Parliament. He should go further and say, that if p it was necessary to choose between extremes, he should prefer to allow all Officers of the Crown to sit in Parliament, than to adopt a measure of general exclusion. A general admission of official persons would be a shock to the Constitution, but we should still have the best Government in the world ; after a general exclusion of the Officers of the Crown from that Hcuse, the Government would not go on for an hour. One reason for the admission of the, Officers of the Crown was, to explain the measures of the Crown; but another reason was, to hold up some reward to honourable ambition. This was a principle which had been acted upon by the Whig Govern. menu of England for near a century, and there was a peculiarity in the state of Ireland which rendered it improper to diminish the number of Irish Officers in Lind House. This bethought was manifest from the increase of the wealth and population of Ireland, and particularly of the political population.—(4 largli.)—By the extension of knowledge in that coun try', the number of persons in that kingdom, who took an interest in politics had increased, and it W 4 not proper to diminish the number of offices which were open to them as Irishmen. He thought the Bill before them had met a hard fate. An addition should have been made math. title of the Bill—it should have been also termed 4 , a Bill for putting in practice economical reform, and abridging the influ ence of the Crown."—(Hear, and a tngh.)—lndeed, he doubted whether the administration which htd been supported by the Gentlemen opposite, though much entitled to respect, had done so much to dimi nish that influence by any one measure.—(Hear, hear.) —The time might come, by the change of po litical circumstances, when he might have to congra tulate some Gentlemen opposite to him, on the ac ceptance of the new office now under discussion— Tam° tempus erit maga° cum optaverit emptum Intaccum Panama, et auto ppulia iota &mope Oderid— The opposers of the Bill would then.larnent the re duction of the Office, and hate the vote of Monday night ; hut he hoped they would not be induced to reform and regulate it—that was to say, after their own ideas of reform—by making the possession of it compatible with another office which it was intended to contiotil.—(Hear, hear, from both sides of the House.)—As to the influence of the Crown, he thought it a fair subject for a general inquiry and regulation, and not for pat tial attack and skirmish. —(Hear, hear, from the Opposition side.) --He should conclude by giving the aunt his unhesitating and sincere vote, a vote unhesitating because sincere, and of which lie was as little ashamed as any enemies of the measure were ti their opposition. Mr. LAMB said, he had not intended to have of fered himself to the House, but for the line of ar gument which had been taken by his Honourable Friend (Mr. Ward) who had spoken last. Though he agreed in some of the general principles of his Honourable Friend, be did not agree in their appli cation, but if he had confined himself to those fair and serious arguments, he should have had little to Object to him ; bitt he had indulged himself in sar casms against, an Administration with which he (Mr. Ward) had always acted—(Leed crier .f hear)—and in support of which he bad uniformly voted. Among other topics of ridicule, he had attacked the measure which enabled the Auditor of the Exchequer to hold the office of Lord of the Treasury. When that measure was before the House, his Honourable Friend had seen no objection to it. The new lights which had shone upon his Honourable Friend's mind from his new companions, might have given him more enlarged views on this subject ; and he congra tulated him upon the justice of his new opinions of the Constitution, so advantageous to the interests of the country— ( Hear)—and to his own —(Heer)— character—( liear)—lt was an Utopian principle, which he (Mr. Lamb) was sorry to see adopted by some friends of freedom and reform, that no servant of the Crown should sit in that House. But it could not be contended that any other official person should, , be admitted into the House, but those who were ne cessary to carry on the business of the State. It any others were admitted it would have been better the principle had never been adopted at all. The Vice- Treasurt:r of Ireland did nut come within this de scription, and on this ground, and on the ground of economy. he should support the Amendment. Mr. WARD explained, that his opinion of the Administration alluded to had not changed. As to the particular measure alluded to he bad not been in town when it was proposed—(Hear, hear, and a laugh). ► The House divided—For the Amendment, 11:—. Asainst it, 149—Majority, 88. The Bill was read a third time and passed. EDCCATION OF 7111 POOR. Mr. BROUGHAM, on the subject of the Educe. ton of the Poor of the Metropolis, stated, that there was 100,000 children in London destitute of educa tion, and it became the House to determine, whether this unhappy state of ignorance should be permitted to continue, or whether some efforts should be made to remove it ? He then entered into a detail of the manner in which the Commi:tee had proceeded, to ascertain the state of the different schools in London, and was happy to say, that they were much better than public report had led them to expect. The revenue of Christ's Hospital amounted to the sum of £44,000, and the expenditure was almost equal to the revenue. The management was highly respect. able, and there was scarcely any foundation for the imputations which were circulated upon its integrity. The Committee had received information of several abuses, as might be expected, but, on inquiry, it was discovered that they were untrue, and that the Insti tution was much more free from every spt cies of irregularity than was generally to be found in insti tutions of such long standing. The Charter House School was equally well conducted, though some might think it improper that its advantages should not be exclusively dispensed to the lower orders ; but he did not think that there was any fair cause of complaint on this account, as the pupils generally were the children and relatives of poor Noblemen mid Gentlemen. The Westminster School, however, was even free from a suspicion of this kind. There was no undue preference on behalf of the more wealthy, for the most rigid test of qualifications was instituted upon the admissions, without any regard to rank whatever ; and St. Paul's School was entitled to approbation, though it had been thought that the salaries were rather too high.— He had felt it his duty to make this representa tion, with respect to the great Schools, though the principal object of the Committee was to collect an accurate account of the condition of minor Se minaries for the education of the poor classes.— With this view they had sent letters to various parts of the kingdom, which were promptly answered. In one instance they had received information, t!)at for £lB,OOO only WOO children had been educated, whereas on the new system of education 90,000 might have been taught to the same extent with the same means.—(Hear, hear.)—This was a statement for one year, and the funds were raised by voluntary contri. butions. He was anxious that the attention of the public should be called to this subject, became in some schools of an old foundation, the trustees were unwilling to make the reforms, which modern inge nuity had invented, and if they saw that next Session of Parliament; some enactment would take place, they would be prompted to do what was evidently 53 very desirable, without any iplerferetice of the k Legislature being necessary. There Iva % s, oveve. another class of schools which the Hiaite 1 1 „ 1 1 right to interfere with. and most J o s, , i v . funds were left to the public, an:l the 1.-; the guardians of the public, should see to 6;1,4 appropriation of them.—(Hear, hear, r +, 1 7 4 .2 peered from the returns under M r . Gilb-,e„.41: that in 178(5 three were funds t. ) the au, £150,000 a year in town, and £7:l,ouu riL ; try, for Ilse purposes of charitable educitian—( hear )—With these means what might not he He thought by an attention to the rec0ni0,,,,4.- of the Committee to send a parliamentar y cor , r ; ;. • sion through the country, immense sum s would saved, which might be app l ied to the extee.ion means of education. 'Notwithstanding the obj.-e,i„ - which migbt be urged against it, he would r Ico : mind that it should be a paid coannivina, as tav 1 4 hours would be great, and the tesponsibLy ver- os siderable. The Committee "ere satisfied, e l it the country there were funds large enough 10. t , 1 , 11 . 1 purposes, it was by no means the cue t!) 1,., ;1 1, t and he was afraid that Os difficulty could 1, 1 b. surmounted without paiiiementary eid• fi, xys sensible of the delicacy of this part of the as the people might express an unwillinniA a: .! list by subscriptions, whets calk,' upo n f".: u,is or. i pose, from a notion that t was pulec::ss ~;;e public purse was open fix :he cervic2s tional underta king ; it was, t:.eret,,re, success. that the aid of twent should cede the necessity of prtvate benevolence, the best species of support i s tnea , ur:s of , sol ipcioe. Perhaps, then, it would be theugl.t bas., as it seemed the House must do something, to tee. tribute the means of building schrtileociins, i was always the great olistacle, n the way ble projects, for the dissemination of knowiedge among the indigent. But, at present, he shouiday; make any definite proposal on this branch of ti te question. He had merely thrown this idea out for the consideration of Honourable Members, and lie should be happy to adopt any plan which might 35. prove itself to the judgment of the Houle, as best calculated to answer the end proposed. Ileee sed one other point, upon which he should slightly fw . % before he sat down, which was the necessity of steer. ing clear of all sectarian feelings or partialities, in the prosecution of this great cause ; but he saw but litik to apprehend on this part of the subject, as bogs Churchmen and Dissenters were become mare lihrd and were daily associating in schemes of general nevolence. Of course, in any plan of extensive operation, there would be an attention to the gentral claims of all cllsses, with a due regard to the Opts and interests of the National Church—(N,ear, hetr.).... The House would feel it a duty to support and c't. risk the Established Religion, which might be dote without injustice to the other denominations of Cbris. flans. He concluded by moving, " That the I .lepore do lie on the table." Lord CASTLE REA GH comp:imented the Leg. ned Gentleman on the able view which he had Edon of this subject, and was satisfied that hisl..bours would be eminently serviceable to the country, if a d.ie re gard were paid to those important considerations, which he had not lost sight of. He e:Trev.scil his satisfaction, too, at the testimony which had beta given to the reputation of the Chartered Schools f.t the Metropolis. Mr. ROSE joined in the tr;bute of praise et!? tr , the exertions of the Learned Gentleman, and 17'f :UM chat the morals of the lower orders would be greatly benefited by the extension of education. Mr. PEEL entered into several statement 3 with re. ,pect to the mode of conducting public educatirn is Leland, and was able to assure the House from ins own knowledge, that the greatest benefits had se• stilted from the labours of a Commistion in that curie. try, similar to the one which the Learned Gentlania had sugersted for England. Mr. WROTTESLEY remarked, that the Bill far regulating charitable donations, which he had had the houour of introducing to the House, would very much facilitate the exertions which had been pi;,. posed to he made in behalf of public education. Mr. WI LB El( FO RC E urged the propriety of ap pointing an Officer, whose business it should be ta scrutinise into the management of Public Sa.ioq throughout the country, and report thereon to f o r House every Session of Parliament. Mr. CANNING had heard of the Committee but very recently, and was disposed, trim what had hero reported to him, to look upon it with some degre..4 , l alarm. However, what had passed this eveniog had completely dissipated those fears. The found,ai.ii of good order was laid in the foundations of 1110r:di; y, and morality was only to be reared on the basi. i.l education. He concurred in the sentiments of &- light which had liven expressed at hearing, that th large Schools of London were free from the ropio.r.ll which prejudice an.l envy might cast upon them. Sir W. GA RIXO '44/ expressed his approliation of the Report, and hcped it would be pri.,ted and cir culated through the country at the ensuing As.ize;. After a brief conversation between Mr. lintiet.Av, Mr. W. SaIITH, General THORN:TONI and Dlr. HINOTON, Mr. &tour:mass shm.ly Lae Report was ordered to lie on the Tante. Mr. BROUGHAM then gave notice, thtt should bring the subject matter of the Report the House early next Session. The Report was then ordered to be printed. VINICIIASE CE CLE:tNILINT. Mr. HUSKISSON felt it unnecessary to tr , ,a:;•• the House at any length on this propriety of proving a country residence for the Prince of Cobourg and the Princess Charlotte. He then detailed the prot,res: of the negociation for the purchase of the Ciernoir. Estate, :hewing that the utmost care hid {wen take:t to make a good and satisfactory bargain. The estar.! was valued at re.36,2t 1 0, and consisted of three tut - dred and fifty acres of land. The mansion, farm, and outbuildings, were reckoned at i1t19,000, aid th manor was eonsid :red to be worth about £5OOO rnor. • It was not intended that there should be any further expense to the public, after the whole was passed into the hands of the Prince of Saxe Cobourg and her Royal Highness. The estimate upon the whole lvd been a trifle above 861,000, but 460,000 was to be given for it. In addition to this, there was furniture to the amtrunt of six thousand pounds, which would render it fit for the immediate reception of the Royal tenants. Now, as to *the way in which this sum WU to be provided, it was intended to tak4 I •