Star. — London, England, 1819-01-30 00:00:00

I'ARLIAMIZNTAR 1' PROCEEDINGS. 1111•••••• • •••• HOUSE OF LORDS, 'JANUARY 29. Counsel were may heard on the Scots cause " Geddes v. St carte."—Judge ont postponed. In that of " Douala* v. Stuart," Omani were partly heard, —To proceed again on 'lle Earl , of Taw*? took the eethiateo its seat. The oaths of &Oradea padittielity twin duly administered to Mr. John Siegmund Stettenfarth, the• Bill for that Gentle man's Naturalisation was read the second time, and ordered to be committed. Mews. Taylor sad Poesy, the ClerlCand Junior Seaton of St. Martin' Church, were sworn at the Bar, with respect to their evidence before the Lords' Committees, in relation to Mr. Stet tenforth's Naturalisation Bill. Mr. Mason presented, from the East India Directors, an Ac count *Ube Grants, Annuities, and Pensions, conferred by t h at Court since the last Return, pursuant to the Act of the .53d of his Majesty, which was ordered to lie on the table. CARL Off HIS MAJEsTY'S PERSON. On the motion of the Earl of LIVERPOOL, the Bill to pro vide fee the care of his Majesty's Sacred Person, was read the &lettings, and passed. The Bill was then ordered to he carried by two of the Learned Judges (as Is mammary in the case of all Bills relating to the Royal Family) down to the Commons, for the concurrence of that HOUlC—Adjourned till Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS. We. FINLAY presented a Report of the Committee on the Peados respecting the Lanark which was agreed to, and a 8111 ordered. Mr. Mason, from the East India House, presented a copy of the Resolutions of the Court of Director‘,, respecting the grant- Mg of Peados, or Gratoitre for services performed.—Ordered to lie en the table. Sir R. WILSON brought in a Dill, which was read a first time, for amending the different Acts relating to the paving and lighting the Borough of Southwark. Mr. HUMS postponed his motion relative tot the adminis tration of justice in India till Wednesday, the 17t0February. The Bristol Gas Bill was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time. The Westminster Hustings Bill was committed, and the Re port-ordered to be received on Monday. NOT ICES. Mr. LAWSON said, he rose for the purpose of giving . notice that he intended to move for leave to bring in two Bills. He was proceeding to describe the nature of them, when Mr. SPEAKER begged that the Honourable Gantleman would pardon him for observing that, in giving a notice, it was usual for a Member to con fine himself merely to doing so. When the day, which the Member chose to fix, arrived, he might then bring forward his motion, and give such state ments or etplanations respecting the nature of it as might seem necessary. Mr. LAWSON said that he wished to describe, as briefly as possible, the nature of his motions, and that he would endeavour to do so without trespass ing long on the time of the House. Mr. SPEAKER again said, that detailed state ments on such an occasion were out of order. Either the Honourable Member must have made up his mind as to the particular day on which to bring forward his motion, or he had not fixed the day.— The only difference which that could make in giving notice was, that in the one ease he would name the day, and in the other ease he might merely say that he would bring it forward on a future day. Mr. LAWSON said he would now give the no tice, that on a future day he intended w move :Or leave to bring in two Bills. Mr. SPEAKER observed, that a notice, in sticlt general terms, conveyed nothing. It was usual tol state the title or substance of the Bills. Mr. LAWSON observed, that he was almost at t loss how to communicate his intentions, without ex pressing in some way the nature of the measures of which he wished to give notice. The first Bill for which he should move would be for the preservation of a species of animals, which, if he might so de-, scribe them, without encroaching on the prerogative of the Sister Kingdom, he should designate as tame wild beasts—(a laugh J.—Ferrets had been held on a late trial at Hertford ; to be ferx naturce, and in which therefore no property could be had. Such animals being useful in the destruction of rats. ver min, and other creatures of a base and ferocious nature, were, he thought, deserving of considera tion by the Law. The other Bill which he shook' move for leave to introduce, would be for the Re peal of the Trial by Battle. PETITION Or Mt. /MKT. Mr. SINCLAIR said, he held in his hand a Peti tion which had been handed to him, and which he had no objection to present, as it contained no mat ter disrespectful to the House. It was a Petition from Mr. Hunt, complaining of the enormous Bill demanded of him by the High Bailiff of Westmin ster, for his share of the expenses as a Candidate for the last Westminster Election. The Petition was brought up and read. It stated that the Petitioner (Henry Hunt) was one of five Candidates at the last Westminster Election, and that the High Bailiff had brought in a Bill of up wards of 9001. for the expenses of the hustings, &c. on that occasion—one item of which was 5201. for the erection of the Hustings. The Petitioner prayed the protection of the House to shield him from the effect of legal proceedings which were pending agaiese him for the recovery of a sum, which, he contended, to be an exorbitant and unjust demand. The Petition was laid on the table. COMMISSIONERS Of BANKRUPTS. Mr.WROTTESLEY gave notice of a bill, founded on the report of the Committee appointed to inquire into what was a proper site in the city of London for the erection of a building for the accommodation of the Commissioners of Bankruptcy. Mr. WAITHMAN expresed a hope that the Re port would be sent back to the Committee for re-, consideration. snrActs OF PRIVILEGE. Mr. DENMAN said, he held in his hand a Peti tion containing serious charges against a person of elevated rank. it complained of a breach of the pri vileges of that House, by the interference of a Peer of Parliamtnt in the electien fur the City of Oxford. It did not allege an undue return, but that the Duke of Marlborough had been guilty of a violation of the rights of his Majesty's subjects, by various illegal arts, committed for the purpose of influencing an election. The petitioners were persons of most re spectale character, who had taken no part in the election . ; and he conceived that they were justified in their application to have their statement refereed to a Committee of Privileges. Ne now moved, there. fore, that the petition should be read. Lord CHARLES SPENCER CHURCHILL de-, aired that he hat no wish to oppose the motion of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman. From his ' own actual knowledge of the facts to which the Pe tition referred, and from other circumstances, he felt the utmost confidence that the conduct of his Noble Relation would, upon enquiry, prove to be utterly undeserving of the imputations cast uponit. He should defer all further remarks till a future opportunity. Mr. C. W. WYNNE said, if he rightly understood the nature of this Petition, from the observatiqns of . the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, it did not' complain of any undue re:urn, nor did it proceed from persons having a right to vote or take any part l in the election. It could not, therefore, be referred to an Election Committee. He wished to draw the attention of the House to the extreme inconvenience that must arise from taking Petitions of this nature into consideration, before the fourteen days had ex pired within which election petitions might be re ceived. A. Committee appointed to enquire into the rounds of the present complaint, must inquire into faces which might afterwards become the subject of investigation upon a petition for an undue return. It would thus open a door for drawing cases from the consideration of Select Committees, and making them matter of discussion in the House itself; to the renewal of all those evils which were found to pre vail before that sy tem of judicature by which con tested elections were now decided was established.— Ile recommended, therefore, to the Honourable and Learned Gentleman to postpone this question tili the tourteen days should ha . c elapsed. There could then be no objection to his motion for referring . it to a Committee of Privilege., if no election petition were presented in the mean t me. Mr. DENMAN expessed himself grateful for the advice of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, but begged to state, that he was wrong in supposing that the petitioners were not freemen of Oxford, or sere not qualified to vote. It appeared also to him, that the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had carried the effect of the Act of Parliament too far. It might be desirable that it should, but the law in its present state did not exclude any person from com plaining to the House of a breach of privilege within the fcurteen days. Every subject had therefore a right to expect that his complaint should be imme diately considered. He thought too, that the come mfences of a Report by a Committee of Privileges were somewhat exaggerated, when it was supposed that it would necessarily embarrass or mislead fifteen gentlemen, acting upon oath, whose duty it might afterwards be to advert to the same circumstances. Under these considerations, and with a full know- ledge of the respectability of the petitioners, he did not feel himself justified in consenung to any delay. Mr. C. W. WYNNE then obkervcd, that he had understood the Honourable Gentleman to have said, at first, that the said petitioners had no local con nection with the City of Oxford. He felt, how ever, the difficulty which he had already urged to be so strong, that as the Report of a Committee of Pri vileges must, if made, lie on the table till the four teen days were expired, and there was, therefore, no reason for dispatch, be should take the sense of the I louse upon the question of receiving this petition. .An Honourable Member observed, that it was im possible for the House to know the nature or sub suivice of this petition till it should be read. All that %% a, stated by his Honourable Friend was, that it con tained an allegation of a breach of privilege, by the in , erference ref a Peer in the election of a Member to wi-ve in that House. Such a complaint, he appro.. liended, it was their duty to attend to at any time. Mr. TIERNEY could not conceive upon what principle the House was called on by his Honourable ' Friend to reject a Petition, or to decide that they would not receive it, before they had heard it read, and merely because it related to a breads of privi lege—(Hear, beer).—lt would be soon enough to dispose of it, or to postpone its consideration, when its contents should be fully known. With regard to its merits, he was entirely ignorant of then, but he was most willing to believe that they were favour able rather thar otherwise to the Noll. Duke. Lord C. S. CIII:RCHILL repeated the expression of his anxiety, that an early occasion mi;iit be af forded of vindicating the character oust conduct of his Noble relation. , Mr..WYNNE thought the statements :n the Peti tion might, by being read, in some degree prejudice the consiJeration of the (itie,tion by an Election Com mittee, but was willing to yield to what appeared to be the sense of the House. The Petition was then read. It alleged various acts of bribery on die part of the Duke of Marlbo rough, in furnishing entertainment, gifts, and rewards to voters at the late Election for the City of Oxford, in order to procure the Return of General St. John as one of its Representatives in Parliament. The Petitioners offered to make good their charges before a Committee of Privileges, and in such case, prayed that the House would afford that relief to the com mons of the realms as in their wisdom should seem proper. Mr. DENMAN moved that this Petition should lie upon the table. Mr. WYNN said, that as he heard the Petition read, he had si eal duabts wherthpr this vra• not in if an Election Petition. It stated a fact, which, if true, would render the Election void, alleging not only that large sums had been expended for the pur pose of procuring a return, but that by these means the return in question hail been effected. If there were any doubt on the subject, it might be advisable to adjourn the consideration of it till - Monday next. The SPEAKER observed, that if there was any doubt with respect to the point alluded to, it might be more judicious to adjourn the consideration of it, than to decide off hand a question which must de pend on the force of particular expressions. The Petition was then postponed till Monday, and ordered to be printed. coMMITTICI OF SUPPLY. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the postponement of the order for the House resolving itself into a Committee of Supply, till Monday next__ ' Mr. .GRENFELL said, that on Wednesday he had called the attention of the Right Honourable Chancellor of the Exchequer to a subject of great importance, namely, the market price of silver, as compared with the Mint value. He had then stated that the market price of silver was .ss. 7id.an ourfe. On all occasions of this sort it was necessary to pro cure the most accurate information. Accordingly, he went on the following day into the City, to procure a true statement of the market price, and found that standard silver—that is, such as shillings and sir- penes were made of, was ss. 7d. or 675. a pound. This, it 'was obvious, must produce the greatest in convenience. The fact, however ridiculous it might appear, really was, that 665. were now worth 675. It seemed absurd to say, that there was no difference between 66 and 67, but unfortunately, in conse quence of the system which had been pursued, it was now really a fact, that 665. in the bullion market were equal to 675. A nicker of silver need only put 66 shillings into a crucible, and expose them to whit was called a sharp fire, and presently he would have from these 66 shillings a lump of silver, which he might sell for 67 shillings. Such was the state in which the country was now placed with respect to its coin. He could nor put any confidence in the ex pectation which wab held out as to the resumption of cash payments by the Bank, while things were in this state. Nor, indeed, when he recollected the opinions held by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite on various other subjects, which had been so coin pletely contradicted by - facts, could he have any faith in his arguments as to this. Could the I louse forget the opinions expressed by the Right Honourable Gen ! . tleman, now Chancellor of the Exchequer, on, the bullion question? In the debates on that occasion, he had maintained, that Bank notes, in the opinion of the country, were equal to specie ; and he not only had said this, but had persuaded the House to pa.s resolution to that effect. That ridiculous resolution was scarcely entered upon the Journals-..-the ink wa , scarcely dry, when in the market, a man who wished to purchase a guinea, must give, not a pound note and a shilling, but must add hve shillings more. Per haps lie should now be told that it was illegal to melt down the coin. He certainly knew that there was an impolitic law against exporting coin ; impolitic. he called it, because such every law of the kind had been held by every writer, from Locke to those of the present day : and absurd, because such in fact it was, seeing that it was totally ineffective. Such a law must always be found inoperative- But what made him chiefly desirous of attracting the attention of the House to this most important subject was. that if silver continued at its present price, the coun try, already deprived of its gold coin, would in a very short while also lose the whole of the sil vet cut-, rency, and thus be left without any of the precious metals in its circulation. What this would end in, or what expedient the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite meant to propose for remedying the evil, he did not know. He did not expect that any effective remedy would be proposed by him ; and after what had already been clone, he would not at all wonder if the Righ . t Honourable Gentleman. haring already maintained that the public was satisfie.l with a paper pound, that they shbuld be also satisfied with a paper shilling or a paper sixpei,ce. Mr. WELLESLEY POLE..—As to the fact nien. cloned by the Honourable r;entleman opposite, that' according to the pre4ent prim ci Silver, 665. were worth 675. it was certainly- tine; but he did not see how tins could be charged as a matter of complaint against any of his Majesty's Ministers. The principles on which the regalations at the Mint with respect to the new coinare had been framed, had been fOr the most part approved even by the Honourable Gentle man himselt. The only point on which the Honour able Gentleman (Mr. Grenfell) differed from him was in thinking that the seigniorage was not fixed at a rate sufficiently high. The Honourable Gentleman' thought that six_per cent. was not high enough. Mr. GRENFELL said across the table, that - he thought six per cent. high enough. Mr. W. POLE said, if he was not mistaken, the Honourable Gentleman wished the right of seignior age to be fixed at ten per cent. Mr. GRENFELL said that he certainly did not recollect. that he had ever mentioned the rate of the seigniorage which he thought ought to be taken ; or' if he had mentioned it to the Bight Honourable Gentleman, it must have been in private conversation. Mr. AV. POLE continued.—The Honourable Gen tleman must, however, admit. whatever the rate of seigniorage wls, that whenever the market pri.'e of silver exc,vded the Mint. price, th.it very 6.cnin stance must happen which h.' now considered as .o surpri.ing, and as to which nothing woula content hint bu: - that he must bhur.,• the Chancellor of the, Exchequer. If the seigniorage, instead, ui six per cent. was made ten per cent. still when tit market price rose to eleven, the very same thing would hap pen. and there would be a profit in melting down the coin. But then as to the inconvenience s. hick was likely to arise from this stare of things, the 11, nourable Gentleman kept out of sight this circtin:- stance, which was of material importance on the subject—namely, that silver coin was tat a legal tender for any sum exceeding forty shillings; there fore, that unless there was some still greater rise in the price of Silver, which was by no means probable, he did not think that any great inconvenience to the Public was likely to arise ; for the temptation to melt ' down the Coin at present was not sufficiently great to induce any one to attempt it. As to the laws against the exportation of Coin, he would go the whole length with the Honourable Gentleman in condemnation of them. lie thought they were not merely futile, but even wo rse . Thi s su bj ect h a d nut escaped the attention of his Majesty's Ministers, but it was no law of theirs: it was the old law of the I country—at least as old, he believed, as the reign of Queen Elizabeth, or even older than that.. The ex pediency of altering or repealing it was a very tit subject for the consideration of that Committee which 'it was proposed should he appoi:ned. But the pre ' sent market price or Silver was not such, he thought, as was likely to make it any inducement to export our Silver Coin. There was one curious circum stance which he would mention to the I louse, as a proof that the present high price of Silver was ow. As to the question of the Bank Restriction. great difficulty in seeing how this applied to question always appeared to him to he a nit. cate one, and he must confess, that, a-W I a n tention which he had gisen to it, iddio!:gh read all, or ne..-rly all, the publications relP.: lie was much at a loss to come to a conclesi it. There was this singularity in that quegi it was one on which no two persons seemed Ile had spoken with many persons upci: it, did not find any two of them az;-rce in t' c He had read many works upon it, but no :w authors were agreed upon it. He had heal Jel,al,7s on it, in which no two Me :.hers we' in their views—even on the other side of 0 no two Members agreed upon it—nay, an Bank Directors theinselve4 there were no tvl upon k—{!fear, kcar, and laughter.) In of things, he certainly thoneht that !hc - 1 - 1 of a Committee to consider the yte• most proper way of coming to a and in that Committee lie trusted tilAi. nags would be laid aside, and that !;.' come to the discussion with candour an.i convinced of the importance of the subiec . k comityg to that decision which would be n formable to the interests of the country, Mr. WILSON, of London, observed, that does would almost necessarily arise in thi Silver, as long as Lank-notes remained the! cularing medium of the country. For the of trade, a large issue of Bank-notes was and he thought the present system of nix in such affairs was all that could be desire, existing circumstances. Certainly that sysie) require considerable attention before it coui. dered any thing like unobjectionable or perff saw there was a remedy for the evils comp' but there was only one, namely, to coin b price of Silver, or, in other words, to inc. seigniors from its present amount to six Lord. A. HAMILTON, remarking en Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. the various opinions on the Opposithn s House, on the Bank Restriction, said. t wished for a pattern of inconsiinnicies, he refer to that Right Hon. Gentleman himseh Colleagues. Ifislionotim ble Fiferd had n a signal instance of these—namely, the not() solution passed at the instigation of the Ri., Gentleman, lIQW Chancellor of the k;sela ting forth that a Rank-note was, in doe, equal to 20s. while t: tile very that• Resolution r.-as recorded, tie I. . - was•tn pror,iess, prohibiting that Is) , I:;w this Resolution it was &dared .- tion to do. Itituttever inc)n,' , :a throughout thk. at thiVtii.at there WAS :tut ore ev;/ itast a ', lilu Bir:1 the etinverti'.iility of kietvel IRA said, : - .e nt t t the object of hi. 11ot:our:ad tt i , !1,1 observations u:ts bt mirk , Gentleman opposite (31r. W. 1%4 Friend's obseri:itton rnat the I:recc J itlfo I I, WAS not a befficient to ,;(:, mire. this the Right Hon. Gentiem.:n r. , •plied, that the drain would not last. He (Alr. hoped so too ; but then that was all a tiler' tion of the Right Hon. Gentleman. Then Hon. Gentleman said he had taken great make himself master of the subject of the striction ; that he had read all the pamphlets ever been written upon it, without being make up his mind upon it. He would, beg the Right Hon. Gentleman to read pamphlet, which he would venture to say, Hon. Gentleman had not et read, whic, sure the Chancellor of the Exchequer woul commend to him, and which he himself met with that very morning ; it was " A the night Hon. Robert Peel, by one of hi tuents in Oxford." Who the author was he know ; but, whoever he was, he was an honor University. If the Right Elon. Gentlema read that pamphlet, he would venture t( would give him some additional iufonnati was glad that they were to have the Rigl Gentleman's presence on Tuesday; and, af he had always been of opinion that the cue, one which ought to be referred to a Comn was glad to find him now, for the first time, 2 , :.t u,n).n it. Mr. W. POLE evl:tinrd. The Right able Gentloman (Mr. Tierney) altering of one or two words, had contrived to make i that he (Mr. Pole) had said the very reverse which he had really. Ile had not said that nlu ays of opinion that the subject ought ferred to a Committee. The word always w by the Right Honourable Gentleman, and i that he did it with the intention of making pear ridiculous to the liouse—(Laughte, Right Honourable Gentleman's talent for was une for which he had often been admin eially for his adroitness in using it a ponents when he had no argument at band. no doubt, that in the coarre of this Session, Honourable Gentleman would assist his wad gument very much by this talent; buf he that the first of this sharp-shooting had been against LamAhicr would, read the paw.; ten which the Eight Ito Gentleman teconunended. And again he , but express his satisfaction that the stib;ei be referred to t Committee choseti by ballot— ter)—he repeated it, ch tun by ballot, lot the fairest way of enabling each Member those whom he thought most p:oper to si Committee. .. . ing to some temporary causc : Dollars, which were Mr. (iIiENFELL explained.--!'le entii two pence an ounce worse than Standard. Silver, at proved of the Mint regttlation present sold at the rate or two pence an ounce more MILIPELLANEOr% than the Standard Silver, according to the market Mr. STEWART WO/tTl.litt °ht.:tired leave to price. This was entirely owing to the temporary tie- rill to regulate the Cutkry Tr.ttle in I:vglat:d. bk Ste U. d i b l D1.F.Y 1 , 1 referring to .7:.. }. 1 1.-- su . re nand tin l)oilars in the Last India market, and was only temporary. lie therefore thought that the pre• st:i . t 1 :17.4i . iv.• fl y ti. ;,`.,; ( l . nt 3 r ) l l l i ... it ak. ) , l ir the 'ted ‘-:: e 1. 1 :1 - o v w c sent ri..e in Silver was cooing to some such tern- Waio itkellekti to bring it fintatrird al/ 8111A6ai? porary cause: but if it should turn out not to b e so, rite ill A 5t:1 . : 1 . 1,0 R of thc 1:\ctt . ..::;. 1 1 eonoiaer,rl that ejite..tion Ai sa nit...h .....nt..:‘,.i %.1. and that the pl!r.ent seigniorage was not adequate that it would be pr.l i tr to r..fi he knew of but one remedy, and that was a legisia ' - i ,s r 'un ac jt c \, ! :u ll e c ii " . "Ilu • .1 ' side:- the sub... ri. rive one. Parliament must, then, con on the 14,4; ~ .of M r MAXNINC. t h ere t c : lt ord ject, and provide such a.remedy as might be thought taid before the floe.. :at tecount of the tr.anher most etrectual. But he Mil t repeat ) iis convictio - it prowcuten hy the 4 glieers of the )lingo. ooaoten , that the evil was temporary, an d would n - . . ei,in a the 10a1.,,, briitvea t 0:.% April. !bid, aad LeAse- J.,:a,,:. ) i 0 1.... -- .v.i j oi.., ..i.a. :r. F, 1 . ':. 1 1 11 t' :•. h ::e , ticn. It.. az • : t. cir ar..l ssi ere; the !, fu 11,:r ' to WO ti •• I to . , as n :t. t 111); , cc at 11:: • le pit gre.,t . purp•r 4 retiui re ±, • inagemr: t;d, cm ild be :r. rfect. l e .t .:lainel below f•:: 'crease • c per 11'1%i! 4 ,1 r it ;:e .1 );•• fir re: C:, , ';•" :t . : • •.••• :ras e ,r 1 : :• I C 4 ; 1 .t he !tor': ) heArt:iy re sf..\-ula the t pains Bisak Rt- ts tbatllll g able u however, one otLt the eh heat: aid r.ot re. ' had oni : Letter t) Us Consti- e did nee Dur to that Lan woull to say. it ttion. He fight He as he !.z:d estion was nUttee, lie e, inclined Honour- )r adding it appe..l se of that at was to be re- as added he kr. , r.v g him ap- e,-).—The c ridicule red, Est his op- I. Ile the ant 01 ar- • was sort' 11 directed tt. hoWeve - , cc•uld ect w•. F —(1.11.;1- ; VLi to :lame .it et. tLat irely r. brill in a had iu tt. ss cher 11 aid, that ae th the els. fer it to the 'tiered to be of rersosts tfeisi4 4t= 4 the sea _ . ~: i ~~ '~ i , c i , - $ 1 1 t,. _i.. ~~