Star. — London, England, 1809-01-25 00:00:00

some mannei • 'rich Fe was pleased to speak of his , t'Nt.l •• tl .he duty which devolved upon Marbl e ring th suppose the Right Honour - H e " II placing him at the head of the • ;p Gcntleir r: a :iccept the situation he had before • 1 / 4 is''e t o ii and did not desire to impose upon c h i m t he painfu: and invidious task of objecting per . s ,. ma ily to ;my member named in the list just - read: he In any sentiment which he might express upon this cabiect, Housepote w o o any ould, he was confident, excuse ' i intention of private of -411' a • P h i t it not im which he felt as a public duty. As to the fne.: • „ inc e of hi , . name on the new list, he had not • . e c , ed to it , a s his Ri g ht Hon. Friend had express °ejeda that he would allow it to stand there. He t the same time convinced his Right Honour was a • . n ht have chosen a much more proper ableiend might •ird mi.dit have found many persons upon r oil • ti l e list , ot the Commit tee much more competent to fill tae Chair. a 'although in the duty of regular atten. ibnce and zeal, to the best of his ability, he would Y;eld to note. He begged leave , ho w e v er , fairl y to t , , at as the list was now constituted, it was quite inT(,s3l- e 'id for him to admit of being called to the • cha i r , No consideration on earth should induce him to 'Ake the Chair of the Committee as just named. ,Ir. PETER MOORE said, that if the Honour able Gentleman who had just sat down had not ex pressed his disapprobation of the Co mmittee as it was •d h • Jto be constitute , e was prepared and re-, P c ' se s jed to du it. The es. tablishment of the Committee L i abcen a mere farce to delude the people, and its rec , in mendations had never been attended to. In e report a suggestion was made relative to an ar /,°,1! ement with the Bank of England, which would ve t c. untry 200,6001. but b y its not havin g been followed up, the country was made to make the sum u p. In another report it aas stated, that large sums of money had passed through the hands of a Mr. Thomas Steele, formerly a Member of that House, and that he had appropriated 19,7001. to his own use from the public nroney, yet no steps had been taken to recover it or punish the delinquent, as ought to have been done by the Attorney-General. Reports were frequently made, but no attention was paid to them, and the consequence was, that any new Corn. mince could only recommend what had been recom. mended by the Coramitteus . of 1797 and 17943. He censured Ministers severely for their neglect and dis regard of the subject, and accused them of know. ingly pr blic money to pass into other channels than that to wLich it was intended by the constitution. Bye and bye, he said, he should put ' a certain Gentleman, whom he saw opposite him, upon his trial, on a charge of taking money from the trea sury, and paying it away in an unwarrantable man ner. He saw no mason why Ministers should not be regul..rly called upon to account for their application of the public money before they called upon Parlia ment to vote more. The misconduct of Mr. Pitt, In neglecting the application of the public money, was highly reprehensible, as appeared from the trial of Lord Melville, notwithstanding his boasted talents as a financier. He said that he could prove that large sutas of money, which were raised upon the people, never came into the Exchequer at all, and he pro mised to make it a subject of parliamentary investi gat;on on a future occasion. Lord HEIIRY PETTY bore his testimony to the meritorious conduct of the Hon. Gentleman who sp.ke last butt one ; and who had so fully anticipated his own sentiments, that in consequence of what had fallen from him, he himself must abstain from any attendance upon a Committee so nominated. Mr. YORKE was of opinion that the reduction of fat Committee, in the manner proposed, was an im ph, .i stigma on the Members whose names were omit ted; z. he Fhould rather prefer the smaller ineon venicfcu that might arise from reviving the whole Con,. :tee, than the greater and much more objec tionabie alternative of calling into discussion the merits of individual Members. He regretted the opinion ex pressed by the Hon. Member who had spoken second on this question, because he knew that opinion would go forth and had weight with the public, whom it might disincline to attach confidence to the Commit tee. The public would never be satisfied with the CGmmittee nominated by any particular set of me*. lie did not mean to say that abuses did not exist that nui. 6 lt demand reform ; and if the Committee was to be :7 - dyed, it would be better' to reappoint it just as it stood before, than force the House to the invidiousl task of discussing the merits of particular men. But for his part, he was aot quite sure it was necessary to reappoint the Committee at all. In all events, he thought it would be better to give the House a day for examining the reports already made, and after wards reappoint the Committee, if it sould appear necessary. Mr. WHITBREAD said that after what had al ready been stated, it was quite impossible the public could expect any good to arise from the Committee. He -1 , - :ght a nomination coming from the Honour able Member who first opposed this list, as an inde pendent country Gentleman, infinitely better than one from any Chancellor of the Exchequer, be he who he might. The Hon. Member who first opposed this list, had acknowledged his own suggestion for a re duction of the number of the Committee ; but it was obvious to himself that great partiality might be used in the omission of particular names and the retention of others that were highly objectionable ; though he would admit th at some names were left out as objec tionable as any that were retained. Upon one name in this list particularly he had objected upon what he ronc-ived to be good grounds. A question had been put certainly, upon that name, and his objection was overruled ; and he certainly should fell it his duty to repeat his objection against it now, and put it again to a question. The public bad certainly a right to expect, from the original appointment of the Finance Committee, that much public good might be derived —and, undo u btedly, if the reports they had already made had been acted upon, hundreds of thousands, nay, millions of money, might have been saved to the country. Of what effect was it for the Committee to deliberate and report, if their recommendations were remain a dead letter. Was it expected that they old live centuries ?—and centuries they must live produce any effect, if it was considered that in the '. le of the last long Sessions, they were enabled to • ' , ace but one• Report. The Hon. Gentlemanwho Nosed this list, had shewn the greatest zeal and oi his endeavours to render the labours cf - the ;1 .tee efficient for the purposes of their appoint man was a more competent judge than ~r .m sea himself of the men most likely, • , to co-operate with hint to take .up some of the reports already made on /the for purposes so desirable. He therefore thought the subject, and proci;ed upon them. House had a right to call upon the Hon. Gentleman Mr. LONG said it was not fair in the Honourable for a list of 15 names of such men as he would wish Gentleman to argue that so many reports had been-, to act with. But a list from the Chancellor of the made and not acted on. The first report made by Exchequer was a mere farce, and as such it would be ,' this Committee, relative to the Bank, had beets most considered by the people. • carefully attended to and acted on, and the Public Mr. R. WHARTON said, that after what had had already derived considerable advantages from it. fallen from several Gentlemen who had spoken on the In regard to the second, which related to the Pay subject then before the House, he deemed it necessary Office, he had intme,lately acquiesced in the septa that he, situated as he had been, and particularly ob- ments of the C( mmittee, and there was not one of jected to on the appointment of the Committee, should the regulations they had recommended that he had request the House to indulge him with their attention not attended to, and so far adopted •as w,...s in his till he offered a few observations. He had endea- : power. As Kim! of these would require an Act of voured to discharge the trust which the House had i the Legishoure, it was his intention to bring it for done him the honour to confide in him, with every I ward, but he had not yet been able to do it. In every possible degree of assiduity in his attendance, and the : other instance the utmost deference had, in that de most anxious desire to contribute all in his power to partment, been paid to the regulations proposed by effect those important objects which it appeared to the Committee. As to what had fallen from an him the House had in view, in appointing to the Corn- 1 Honourable Member opposite respecting a gentleman mittee of which he had been a Member, and which who hail been in the Pay Office, but who was not was now intended to be revived. It had been said, i now a Member of the House, an i nqu i r y had iinme that there were many delays during the time that the • diately been instituted ; and he found that the sum, Committee was in the exercise of its functions. He I whatever it might have been, had been paid into the allowed this to be the case, but he was at the same I Office by the gentleman alluded to. time bold to say, that those delays had in s great mea- i Mr. P. MOORE said, the allusion he had made sure proceeded from along Paper which had been in- on that head was only to express his surprize that troduced by the Hon. Gentleman who was Chairman , Mr. T. Steele had not been prosecuted. of the Committee, and he believed that every opposi- Mr. LONG said that was not his business. tion that Paper h ad met with, either from himself, or Mr. CREEVEY said it appeared somewhat extra any other Honourable Member of the Committee who ordinary that this gentleman, who was a Privy Conn thought proper to object to it, arose from a conscious- calor, should, at the time he was Paymaster of the ness on their parts, that the paper he alluded to con- Forces, in the face of an Act of Parliament, have tamed many particulars relative to the prerogative of helped himself to 12 or £14,000 of the public money, the Crown, and other matters not at all relating to the i and notwithstanding that after this report he had him expenditure of the public money, and which he him- self acknowledged he had done so by paying back the self and the Gentlemen who thought as he did, from money, he should still remain a Privy Councillor. time to time, opposed, because they did not think pro- Mr. I. H. BROWNE admitted many disagreeable per to register the Honourable Chairman's edict, circumstances had occurred in the Committee, but he without having examined itsvarious contents and their believed from no ill intention in any one, nor from any several bearings, more especially, as he thought that desire to protract unnecessarily the time of the Corn it contained many things which were never in the con- mittee. Many thought a reform as to the power or in templation of the House to enquire into when they fluence of the Crown was necessary, and others that it appointed the Committee. As for his own part, he was not ; and he believed each party was actuated by had been actuated by no other motive than a real re- what they really thought to be right. Many of the gird and zeal for the public interest, and as such had Committee thought the influence of the Crown was pursued the line of conduct which appeared to him the most valuable part of the Constitution, of course most conducive to that end ; and he should, therefore, those would not agree to diminish it ; but though he by no means regret his name being left out of the did not exactly agree with either party oil this head Committee, if the House should think proper to re- and many others, he still thought every one had acted vive it. to the best of his judgment. Mr. Alderman COMBE said, he would not wish Lord MILTON said, that after the debate which or attempt to tax any Gentleman in particular, but had then taken place, lie was apprehensive the ap there was certainly a strong disposition in many Gen- pointment of a Committee could be productive of no tlemen to prolong the discussion upon every occasion, essential service, or that the burdens of the people so that it was impossible to make any report till the would, after so many reports, be at all diminished.— very last day of the Session. The last speaker had said, that in the Committee Mr. SUMNER said, there had certainly been a many persons thought the influence of the Crown was considerable difference of opinion as to many very the most valuable part of the Constitution of the important points among the Gentlemen who corn- country. He for one did uot think that the Crown posed the Committee ; but, he believed, none which should have no influence, but he was of opinion that were made from any other motive, than that each in- those who entertained such sentiments as to the power dividual thought it his duty to oppose every matter of the Crown, were very unfit to be members of such which he did not think for the public interest, or not a Committee. He was sorry the Committee had ever within the view of the House in appointing the Corn- been taken out of the hands of the independent coun mittee. There was one particular question relative try Gentleman who had first proposed it. to sinecure places, which was very warmly debated Mr. BIDDULPH said, he thought it was more during five days, and on which they came to a reso- the blisiness of the House now to look prospectively lotion on the last day. An Honourable Member on than retrospectively ; and that if it had many years the floor, who had so loudly complained of protract- ago been thought highly necessary to attend to the ed discussion, had on that last day spoken no less subject, it must be infinitely mere so at the present than eight times ; he had counted them, and in the moment ; and if, ,by the investigation of the House 'last of the eight speeches he did not say a word that into the public expenditure, they can give the public he had not said in the first seven, nor in the first I a confidence in their zeal for the general interests of seven any thing which he had not uttered in seventy i the country, it would certainly be highly desirable. speechesbeforethat time —(a laugh). It wasnot therefore I The Committee should, therefore, he freely and fairly surprising there should be very considerable delay, as chosen, by their names being alternately called from every Gentleman supposed be had as great a right to each side of the House. deliver his opinion as the Honourable Member who 1 Mr. BROGDEN thought the Committee had gone now so much condemned the Committee on the score farther than was intended, and that they had a right of protracted discussion. For his own part, he had to do, in making a retrenchment on the privileges and opposed such parts of the proceedings as he thought I prerogatives of the Crown, and as such lie opposed the Committee was not intended to interfere with, and the report. had done no more than what he thought his duty re- Mr. ELLISON said he was willing to go into quired of him. every question of retrenchment in the expenditure of The Hon. D. BROWNE said, that immediately the public money, but it seemed co be the bent of the before the Easter recess, the Honourable Gentleman, I report of the Honourable Chairman to interfere with the Chairman, proposed a treatise in the form of a the prerogatives of the Crown : as such, he, for one, report, to which he could by no means give his as- had opposed it. An Honourable Member, whose sent.. Many other Gentlemen o f the Committee en- accusatory disposition was well known, had said, by tertained the same opinion of it as he did, viz. that way of anticipation, that the Committee, constituted it proposed matters to Parliament which it could not as it was, would endeavour to throw obstacles in the stand on, and as such these were repeated discussions I way of reform, but he believed that, in following the on it, which occasioned the delay that had been so dictates of their own hearts, they would be found as much spoken of. He thought, that in a Committee I desirous of reform, as that Hon. Member or any of Parliament no matt should pay a regard to popu- I other in the House. lar feeling, but determine to act in such a manner only Mr. BANKES said, with some warmth, he could as his duty pointed out to him to be proper and right. not sit silent and hear it said th a t the report which he Mr. BANKES said a few words in explanation. had submitted to the Committee contained any in- Lord A. HAMILTON said, that if the Chancel- . novation on the prerogative of the Crown. It' was for of the Exchequer persisted in this Committee, it false that any word in it had tended to trench on that might in his opinion prove nugatory, ao-heeould not prerogative. —[4 try of Order, Order.] conceive, after the Hon. Gentleman who Nims the Mr. H. THORNTON said, that the report,. at Chairman of the last Committee had declined, there the utmost, only went the length of saying, the in was any one who would accept a seat in it. fluence of tht Crown ought to be diminished. Mr. ELLIS said, a Right Honourable Friend of The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER his under the Gallery (Mr. Yorke) had stated, that said, if the Honourable Gentleman on the floor (Mr. some alterations had taken place on the last day of P. Moore), alluded to him as the culprit, he would, the meeting of the Committee. He believed there on a future day, put in his defence, he could not do was some trifling amendment made in one part, of a it too soon—(Mr. Moore answered across the House, 'few words only, " that it might be expedient to re- it was not him). If (Mr. Perceval continued), any duce the salary of some, and to abolish others ;" but of his Honourable Friends near him were alluded to, this was done after very ample discussion, and in he was sure it would be equally their wish that the making . it there could be no colourable imputation charge should be speedily brought forward. He in of surprise on the Committee. In the treatise which ; sisted that every attention had been paid to the re had been alluded to, there was a dissertation on the ' commendations of the Committee in the Pay-Office, increase of tl e influence of the Crown, which, elo- ; and,his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Long) had not only quent as it was, contained sentiments of which he ! followed up every recommendation of the Committee, could not approve, and he therefore gave it his decid- ! but had given them information cf the highest im ed and hearty opposition. Objections, however, had : portance. With regard to the Bank, he believed the been made as to the style and manner in which the , Honourable Chairman (Mr. Bankes) would allow he several Members of the Committee had carried on , had paid every attention to the report of the Commit• their opposition. For his own part, he could only say, tee, and obtained thereby great advantages to the that he had acted for the best, and he verily believed country. A variety of opinions had been formed as every other Honourable Gentleman who acted with to the appointment of this Committee. Some thought him had dorne:the same, and there was certainly not this, others that, the most proper mode of forming it. a stronger ?mord vexatious opposition on their part The object he had in view was to adopt as far as pos- Oran on that of the other side. He conceived there- sible that mode which could the nearest assimilate to fore, their opposition would be received by the House the idea of the Honourable Chairman, by reducing in the manner it was meant. If his name was left the numbers so as to obtain t tlegatch he so much out, he should not feel any regret , consoiou s of hay- desired ; and he could not *d-elpressing his ing acted as his duty required him' to do. ; hopes that his Honourable Friend would reconsider Mr. SUMNER explained. . !the subject, and determine to resume that office for Mr. N.CALVERT said h' saw no good that could which, In the opinion of the House and of the coun arise out of this revived Committee ;he thought the ' try, he was so eminently qualified. He was greatly better way would be to name a flash Committee, oe :Wpm* he said, at the. deelaratio4 of a Noble Lord Lord H. Petty), that he would be a Ivremhet rr __ not any Committee nominated by a Chancellor of the Exchequer. He requested that Noble Lord and his Friends would look back to the original formation of that Committee ;_let them c ompare this list with that which was introduced by the Noble Lord, who, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, took it out of the hands of the Honourable Gentleman who was its air. - 1 and out of 21 Members of which the Committee ISIS composed, 19 were persons who were in (Liilv 'h.to•ts of holding the same political opinions with himself. Mr. ELLISON, in explanation, said, he had that night been speaking of a Report on which he had a right to comment, and in doing so had used none other than Parliamentary language. If he had spoken so as to give offence, he would be willing to apolo gize ; but his habits, both in public and private I.fe, flattered him with the hope he had not done so. An. Hon. Gentleman had used the word false, appliel .o what he had said, and he hoped he would so far ex plain what he meant as to free him from such an im putation. Mr. BANKES said, all he meant was, that the Hon. Gentleman took an unfair view of the subject, and therefore conceived an opinion of it that was false. With respect to all those who had differed with him on the various parts of the Report in question, he wished to speak of them, and had always conceived them honourable men ; but acting, as he thought, under a mistaken or erroneous opinion. Mr. ELLISON said, if the Hon. Gentleman meant only to say that he had formed an erroneous opinion, he was satisfied. The SPEAKER said he was sure that in what had been said by either of the Hon. Gentlemen, there was nothing intended that should cause either of them to retain it in their further remembrance. Lord H. PETTY, in explanation, denied that he had taken the bisiness out of the hands of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bankes). If that Gentleman had not been originally named on the Committee, it was merely an accidental omission, and it would appear by the journ, is of the proceedings pf that Committee, that he had been the Chairman from the beginning. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER allowed that the Honourable Gentleman alluded to had been the Chairman of the Committee from its first sitting, but still he would repeat that it was the full impression of his mind, that the appointment did not proceed from the suggestion of the Noble Lord, hut from some Gentleman on the other side of the House, who thought it most extraordinary that the proposer of the measure should not be uponthe Corn mittee. • Mr. BIDDULPH said a few words in explanation. Mr. PONSONBY said, that the objection of his Right Honourable Friend was not merely to a Com mittee appointed according to the list proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but he had objected to any individual Member appointing the Committee. As to the comparison which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made between his list and that of his predecessor in office (Lord H. Petty), he should only observe, that the Committee which had been nomi. nated by the Noble Lord, was such a Committee as the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Bankes) was well content to act as Chairman to ; but the Committee appointed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was of such a description, that the House had just heard the Honourable Gentleman declare, that he could not act as Chairman to it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had said, that the Noble Lord had appointed 19 of his own policical friends, in a Committee consisting of 21 members. This was, however, nothing very unnatural or extraordinary, when the sentiments of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his political friends were so well known with respect to all reforms, and particularly reforms in the expenditure of the public money. Not much public ‘ , ,cid could have been expected from putting enemies of all reform into such a Committee. Mr. STURGESS BOURNE said it was impossible for the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Bankes) to have protested against acting as Chairman to the Committee appointed Fly the Noble Lord, as at the time of its appointment he did not even know that he was to be one of the Committee. Mr. JOHNSTONE regretted much that the ques tion had been stirred in the way it had been. He feared it would make an impression on the public mind that the House had no serious intention of insti tuting a fair or satisfactory inquiry. He was sure there was no part of his Majesty's speech, whist gave more sincere satisfaction than that which expres sed a determination to introduce every practicable re form in the expenditure of the pubic money. He hoped the House - would sliew the same zeal, and he knew well that there. was a very considerable portion, of the Pu'lic who did not believe that either side of the House was very zealous for reform ; but thought they were all too anxious to provide fir themselves.— It might injure the Committee very much in the pub.- lic opinion, if' the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Bankes), should withdraw from it in the manner he had threatened. The Committee had already done great services ; it had pointed out an annual saving of 200,00u1. per annum, with respect to the Bank ; it had shewn abuses in the Pay Office, which had, in consequence, been reformed, and it had given such a detailed account of pensions and sinecure places, as must ultimately be productive of advantage. Mr. WILBERFORCZ was inclined to think that it would be advisable that the House should have more time to make up its mind upon thesubject: he thought that they should consider the general effect of the prejudice which would prevail against the Com. mittee, if it were constituted in such a manner that the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Bankes) could not 1 act with them. It was impossible to find a man leis influenced by party motives or personal considera tions than the Honourable Gentleman., He conceived that his retiring from the Committee would be such a loss that it would be better to pause, in order to see whether it would not be possible to Xdopt some mid.. die course which might be satisfactory to all parties, and to that Honourable Gentleman. He should,' therefore, hope, that as soon as the question was car ried on the resolution, ‘, that a Committee be appoin. Led," the Right Honourable Gen t l eman ( t h e Ch an . cellor of the Exchequer) would not proceed any fur l . titer this night in the appointment of the , Committee. The question was then put, that a Comm ree sl ould be appointed, which was carried without opposition. DISPATCHES FROM SPAIN. The House were about to lifbreed to the other zoo• 1 1 1 1 1 1