Star. — London, England, 1816-06-12 00:00:00

110.1 y thmughout England. (Heir.) . of the petition 1, which he was now about to present seas not so nun ; rernusly signed as others on the same subject, which het had placed under their Lordships' consideration, he was authorised to state, that this was caused solely by its not having been thought t'sessary to convene a General Meeting, or to make a more extensive ap plication for signatures on this occasion. The cir cumstances of hardship, of peculiar hardship, under which the petitioners have long suffered, continue, they complain, unabated. The persons desiring re lief remained without any. change—except that change which the continued existence of such severe and unmerited injury must have contributed to pro duce in the mind, when hope was disappointed, and redress was delayed. Having informed the House, here the petition was signed, he bad now to stem, with tespect to the petition itself, that it was couched in mgt krete and respectful terms. It set forth, firmly, that feelingly, the grievances from which the pea tanners prayed to be relieved—it expressed their gra titude for • the repeated discussions their case had, on former occasions, undergone inehat House, and their reliance on the wisdom and equity of their Lordships, for the ultimate success and establishment of those' , claims, which, they were persuaded, true justice and aaund policy would load to. Such was the object, and such the character of the petition, which he was' now commissioned to ley before their Lordships.— In performing this duty, he felt considerable pain, when he reflected, how often and how fruitlessly he had called their Lordships' attention to the same sub ject. ( Hear, hear.) Now, alter a long series of years —having, during that period, presented many simi lar petitions to the House, he stood befote their Lordships again, to make the same appeal to their humanity and justice, without having been yet able to prevail on them to take any step for the relief of that numerous and highly honourable body, which comprehended sorne (.1 the most ancient Peers and Gentry of this kingdom—who, if they were impro perk kept from the benefits of that Constitution, which the blood of their ancestors had -been shed to create and to support, had been so less distinguished be a propriety of conduct which deserved a very dif ferent species of ocetment. (Hear, hear.) By uni-s form loyalty—by the most peaceable d meanoue— by an ardent suppoit of the Throne and Constitution, in every way in which it was possible for them to ma nifest their zeal in the defence of those great oejects. The effect of the false policy of which the petitioners comP)ained, was this—that while the Catholics of England were excluded horn the full benefits of the Constitution, the State itself had, in its greatest emergencies, been deprived of the services of men who were well qualified to support its interests ayairet eneinies of every description. (Hear, hear.) Having said thus much with respect to the general scope and object of this Petition, and not now intend ing to m:.kc any other metion than the usual one— that it lie se: the table ; reserving himself for the great discussion of which his Noble 'Friend had jest given notice for Plate se'nnight, which would embrace all the Catholics of the kingdom—it might be expected that he would not trespass further at present en their LOrdships' attention. But there were such circura stances in the situation of the Catholics of Great Bri • taro, that he trusted he would not be thought guilty of unwarrantatle intrusion, it he once rrsore solicited their Lordships' attention to the peculiar severities which attach to them. It was true, he had frequently touched on this subject before: it was equally tree, he had little novel matter to add to his former state ments; but he knew that the impression of grievances of this nature, however deeply felt at the time, was apt to wear out very soon from the minds of those who were not subjected to them.—(Hear, hear.) He therefore hoped that their Lordships' sense of jus tice, with a view to remove the pecultar arid extraor dinary hardships which the lihonous Catholics of Eng. lend suffered, beyond all the other Catholics of the United Kingdom, would induce them ag ain to pay attention to the degrading situation w hich the Pe thinners were plaeed. It was not now his intention to contrast the situation of the Roman Catholic of Great Britain with that of the Roman Catholic in Canada and other places annexed to the British C own. Tiler Lordships knew, that by the Consti tution of those dependencies to the British Empire, civil rights were equally secured to all classes of sub jects, whether Catholics or Protestants. With this state of political freedom, which true justice and sound policy have established in those dependencies, he would not contrast the situation of the Catholics of England ; though, when the great discussion came en, he would state their claim to that full relief which Catholics in other parts of the i . .mpire en joyed; he would then state his opinion, that nothing less could be satisfactory to the Catholics to receive, or would be liberal and fair in them to Wier. Wliat he wished to advert to was, that the situetion of the English Roman Catholic was, in point of severity, materially worse than that of others who professed the same faith, and who, also lived in the United Kingdom. By the Acts of the 18th anitelst of the King, a partial relief was granted to the Roman Ca tholics of Engiaud. Some most oppressive severities were removed. The repeal of these laws should, in a view of enlarged policy, have been considered only as a preliminary step to the granting of that full measure of emancipetion which, as he bad already sr heti, true justice and sound policy required. No thhtg further was however done; and thJ English Ceteedics were lett in a situation much worse than that of the Roman Catholics of Ireland. In Ireland, their Lordships knew that Roman Catholics might rise to any rank in the army, except (and it was a most impolitic and injurious exception) except to that of a General on the Staff. In England the ranks of t !, e A rmy were totally shut against Roman Catholics. With respect to the Navy, there was no distinction between Englend and Ireland. There being no Navy belonging to Ireland, the laws passed by the Itesh Parliament, and which opened to Roman Ca tholics the ranks of the Army, did not enable them to stave also in the Navy. Those persons, who had extended the naval.power and glory of England—the Roman Catholics of both countriek—were, as the law at present stood, absolutely excluded from the Navy.. . They had no right" whatever to serve in it: Here he begged to state 'a use of hardship, which had re cently occurred, and which plainly proved the neces— shy of altering the law on this point. He alluded to the case of Captain White. He was an Officer who had served, for twenty years, in 114 Navy, He had signalised himself in many of the most brilliant engagements of the war—ht bad behaved himself, in various minor actions, with extraordinary bravery — in one of these he commanded a party of boats, and completely succeeded in the enterprise which was in trusted to his skill and courage. After twenty years service, he was, with a feeling of liberality and jus-.I lice, which reflected honour on those who were at the head of the Navy, raised to the rank of Master and i Commander. He proceeded to Cork, to enter on the functions of his situation- o -but he found it was necessary, before he could receive the benefit of that situation, to take an oath, by which lie would abjure the faith he professed—by which he would abandon the religion of his ancestors. He refused—and thus lost the reward of past services, and.the stimulant to future exertions. He not only lost his new commis sion, but his half.pay. He left Cork, unprovided for —with the whole world before him, after an arduous service of twenty years. This Gentleman had six brothers, all of whom had fallen in his Majesty's ser vice. —(Hear, /sear). —This did not constinite a con trast between the Roman Catholics of England and of Ireland—they were alike excluded from the Navy —but it shewed a strange anomaly in our laws. In Ireland, Catholics were eligible to serve in the Army, in England, they were excluded. But, with respect to the Navy, the treatment to the Catholics of both -muntries was the same. In Ireland the Catholics wrre excluded from every corporation except Trinity College, Dublin, where they were admitted to the benefit of education ; but in England they were excluded from all Corporations without excep tion, and rendered incapable of taking out a degree at either of the Universt.es. In Ireland the Catho lics could hold Commissions of the Peace—in Eng land they were disqualifiAl for that important office. In Wiend they could exercise the right of election—in England they were denied that right.- -He would ask what lead the Catholics of England done to deserve this ?—(lieer,hfar.)—How had they forfeited their claim to the most general, and one or the most essential of eiir constituti mat privileges ? He would ask, what had Mr. Cary, of Torr Abbey, is Devonshire, the descendant of Lord Cobham, and himself one of the most respntable characters in the country—what had ho committed, that, at the last 'election for Devonshire, he should be refused the benefit of that right, which the meanest person in Ireland could insist upon ?—(Near, bear.) —What had Mr. belhy, of B:drflestown, committed, who traced his descent back to the time of Richard the Second—what had he done, that at the last elec tion for Northumberlami, when there was no con test, and when it was only necessary, in point of form, for a certain number of freeholders to affix their signatures to the Sheriff's return, the pen should hive been taken out of his band, and he should be irilormed, that even that mere formality was an occasion upon which lie was net qualified to act ? .—The same question lie would put, with regard to Mr. Silverton. He did not desire the House to consider their loyalty, their attacliatent to the liber ties of their country ;'but he asked, what crimes had they committed ? Those were the peculiarities that distinguished the condition of the Catholics at pre. sent ; and lie should feel that it would be impos silix to cell their Lordships' attention to the con tradiction between the laws affecting them in both countries, without .obtaining their concurrence in the removal of the whole system, if it was not his misfortune to have made the same appeal on many occasions before without success. He hoped that measures would at least be taken, to place the Catholics of England co an equal footing with the Catholics of Ireland, as soon as possible.— It was his..wish that they should be relieved at once from all their disabilities, and it would only be de ceiving the House were he to say that any thing short of a comprehensive system of relief would be satisfactory to them. Most of the objections that were formerly urged against their claims, were either removed or considerably altered. There was no longer a preponderating Catholic Power in Europe ; there was no claimant to the Crown, supported by that Power in his pretensions; on the contrary, there was in the bead of the church, at this minutia, a dis position to assist in the perfection of an amicable ar raugement. There was in the Catholics of both countries a disposition to measures of conciliation.— The English C..tholic was always moderate. In 1810 they had come to a resolution to refer their cause •:ntirely th the wisdom and justice of the Le gislature, and declared themselves willing to come into an; measure that was calculated to conciliate and satisfy. He had the honour of presenting a Petition, 'pounded upon that resolution. The Petition of the meeting at Lord Triinleston's, which was just pre- Aellied by his Noble Friend, had placed the subject, with reprd to Ireland, on an entirely new footing. With regard to that which came from the Bishops and Cli:rgy, lie could not help expressing a wish that they had reserved their opinion on the subject of securities, till the objection was proposed to them. The security to which he hooked was to be toned in that harmony, affection, and union which, the measure would necessarily produce. If there was any particolar mode of security which, from prejudice or other' causes, was regarded as objec tionable, he thought it should not be pressed upon the Howe. In the petition which was mere generally signed, and which his . Noble Friend considered, I therefore, a mote general expression of the sentiments of the Catholics, the tone was changed. Considering the rank and qualifications of the persons who agreed to the former Petition, he was not inclined to regard the latter as a more just reflection of their sentiments. But even in the more general Petition, there were none of those offensive expressions that on other oc casions created so much &faculty. There . now pre vailed a disposition to adjustment on the part of the Catholics. He called tilt his Majesty's btuliters,and particularly on the 'Noble Earl (Liverpool) to con sider this. He and other persons of influence in the gtate, were constantly opposed to this question, but he would call upon them now to consider whether the present was a state of the question in which it could continue with honour . to Government itself (Hear, isar.)—ln the . year 181(t, the Noble Earl had distinctly stated, that the disavowal by the Ca tholics of the injurious principles imputed to them, was perfectly satisfactory to him. In MI% another Noble Lord bad objected to the proposition then brought forwaril. His grounds of objection were, the temper and conduct, of the Catholics; the prin ciple of right on which they were re,p11114114 at some timkor o9ter to have rested their claims ; and lastly, the sititavon of Europe. As to the temper and dive sition of the English Catholics, it was not objectionable. The violence so often complained of in the Irish Ca tholics was now much allayed. The claim of right, if e'er it had been urged, was now departed from. It was not his disposition at present to enter into any disquisition respecting this right ; but he did not hesi tate to state, what he had often stated before, that lie was the friend of civil and religious liberty--that he regarded religion ss a matter between man and his Goo—but that both civil and religious liberty should depend upon considerations connected with the safety of the State. All restrictions, however, which were not justified by necessity were, in his opinion. impo litic, unjust, and immoral.—( Hear, hear.) —With re spect to the situation of Europe, it was altered, indeed. In former instances, when the subject came to be ar gued, the Head of the Church was not only under the influence, but under the obsolete controul of that mau who once not only reigned over France, but might be said to have governed the Continent of Europe.— That power was, he thanked GOD, overthrown, and he was sure the Noble Earl would be as ready to state, as he was, that the Gol.ernment by which it was succeeded was amicably disposed to us. They had,' in the Treaty concluded between Holland and the Netherlands, an instance of the possibility of com bining a Protestant Goveroneent with Roman Catho lic annexation. In that Treaty it was provided, that no difference should be made between the subjeCts of the State upon the ground of religion ; so that this .transaction had not only acknowledged the principle not to be dangerous, but declared it conducive to the general security of the wo:ld. He hoped the Noble Earl would see the injus tice of excluding Catholics from the benefit of .he Constitution. Every thing was now favour. able to the cause. The disposition of the Catho lics—she circumstances of Europe—the peace— in short, the only objection to be apprehended was that which he feared might possibly be still found to exist in the minds of his Majesty's Ministers. For his own part, if he had one coin . ; more at heart th a n another, it was, that, before he died, he mignt see established that g:eat work of national conciliAtion. Every thing was favourable. Would Ministers per mit the goldea opportunity to pass ? It had been said, and wisely said, in another place, that things could not lung remain as they were—that we should either retrace our steps, or go on in the task of conci liation. For retracing our steps it was impossible that, in the present age of the world, there could be any advocate. After apologizing for having tres passed so long upon their Lordships' patience, he concluded with moviniD that the petition snould lie on the table. The petition was then read, and ordered to lie on the table. ALIEN BILL. The order upon which their Lordships were sum molted, being read, Viscount SIDMOUTH rose to Move the second reading of this Bill. He first adverted to the mea sure's being to a certain extent a continua:ion of one which was renewed from time to firm!, and which were sanctioned by what rni. t ht be almost deemed the unanimous sense of Perhement ; but they were uniformly opposed by some, from whom he could consistently look for nothing but opposition now.— The present measure, in point of -general principle, was similar to the Acts of 1793 and 1802, but in its provisions it was much mitigated, and in that view, with a reference to the change of circumstances, greatly improved. It the general sense of the House was not decidedly in favour of the present measure, their Lordships' opinion must have undergone a fun damental change. The present measure, he observed, had principally two objects in view. The first was to enable his Majesty, through the Secretary of State, to send suspected Aliens out of the coentry. He should thick that was unquestionably a part of the ancient prerogative of the Crown, had he not heard it disputed by some whose opinions were entitled to respect. The next object was to give facility to the text:cud In of those orders for which Parliament, ns in the preceding cases, was resorted to. No punishment was provided for here, as in the former Bills. He had, from the nature of the cases, no official informa-1 tion to lay before the House, in iliustration of the necessity of the measure. He would put it to their Lordships, whether, after the continu ince of a sys tem for 23 years, it could at once be with safety abo lished ? The measure was modelled in consonance with the improved state of Europe. He was well aware that an Alien, generally speaking, implied a person born without the allegiance of the King ; but he knew that persons, though born within that alle giance, may become Aliens. In administering the measure, he assured the House, the best exercise of his own discretion should be used, and whenever any case of difficulty occurred, the best authorities should be resorted to for solution; the establishment under the present Bill was greatly reduced, the expenses' being diminished from JOAO to 433000 per annum, and the diminution in the number of Officers em ployed was also considerable. In the last three years there were but twenty-one instances of individuals arrested under the operations of the 8,11, and of these only fifteen had been sent out of the country ; whereas, in the preceding fourteen years, 200 arrests had taken place. Under all the circumstances of the case, he doubted not but their Lordships' owa view of the question would evince the indispensible neces sity of the measure, not only in these views of the case to which he had shortly directed their attention, but with a view to the internal tranquillity of the country, and induce them to decide according to those principles which had always influenced their opinions respecting this important measure. The Noble Viscount concluded by moving the second reading of the Bill. Earl FITZWILLIAM rose to give his decided opposition to the Bill. When the Alien Act was first proposed, the state of France was such as, in his opinion, to threaten the subversion of every establish. ed Government in Europe, and therefore, at that time, he thought such a measure absolutely necessary. But none of the circumstances which had then ren dered this measure necessary, now existed ; there was not now any cause of alarm ; he therefore moved as an amendment, that the Bill be read a second time this day three months. . . Lord AUCKLAND thought the Bill was an in. fringement on the best principle of our Constitution. by plain a pottiop of the inhabitants of the king dom under an arbitrary power. The antlinrity e f Mr. Burke, as recorded in the sentiments W hi ch he had expressed in support if the Bill in 1793, , cal completely agains t the present as he h a d s.t:i that the powers givenby the Bill wer e ton great t, be entrusted to the Executive Governm ent in I ,' , time of peace.—(lleac, hear.)—T he only p,r, tt;s j • which this Bill could now he at all defended trot that its object was to prat: ct the Governmeta 1 „; France; but then it was to be recolircted that t h e Government o f th at country was not threatened by any immediate danger. Were they the n to enact such a law because a neighbouring Governm ent was alarmed for some distant or uncertain d anger Lit was no palliation of the evils of this Bill, th at i t was now only proposed to be continued for ttri y e , l3. For these reasons he should vote for the arnentlinert Lord *CAERNARVON expressed his sinpa; that his Majesty's Ministers had assigned lie ore 'reason why this Bill should be passed. O ne of Lia principal objections to the Bill was, that it thr ew the whole burden of proof on any person ag,aitist ab e ve . the powers which it authorised should be ealerced. The Earl of ABERDEEN thought that a. g .,, t0 of pence or a state of war kart, relatively speaki 4 nothing to do ss ith the que%tion as to the ezpe d ict , c; of the measure under consilleratr ? n. Tier_ WAS not about preventing tl.ii country Item c.: 1! ;,, tt. : in;; to be the asylum of pereclued but e,,, ewn„ ((Yelpers; because all that was sought was, 1,-. 1; :, e the power of exclirdins,• dai o pers-ns. Lt certainly true that we were at peace with thee ' , vernmrnt of France, but a graat proportion of tore population was hostile. H. did not sea that any &buses were likely to take place under tue powers of this Bill ; he should therefore decidedly give his vote for the Bill. The Duke of SUSSEX thought that a clear cam of necessity sLould be made out before this ra,, ture ought to Le enacted. The situation of the c;:untry was now very diaerent from what it was in 1793. But he would ask whether such a co:au:tell:x(1 been thoui.t necessary, until the last 22 or 23 years? out of the greatest abuses iit this 13i11 was, that it tone away from a man the privilege of bciog tried by his Peers. As one who stood up fir the of the country, he viewed this Bill with great coiicern; it was a measure both unwise And impolitic. Tiie effect of the Bill would certainly be to drive those persons, oho would otherwise have sought An asy. lum in this country, to America. His Royal High. ness having expatiated on the mischiefs that wouli result from this operation of the Bill, concluded by declaring that he felt himself bound to vote *piing the 11:11. The Earl of GROSVENOR said he felt himself bound to say not-content to this Bid. He spoke shortly against it, arguing from the despotic dispo sition manifested by the Governments of France and Spain. Lord KING spoke shortly against the Bill. The LORI) CHANCELLOR said it was a just and wise policy, by which the prerogative;which was either vs•sted in the Crown or in the State) of sending Aliens cut die kingdom, had for a long time beer. so sparingly ereicise.i. Bat then it was a wise measure to strengthen this preroativi! by a lel gislative enact rent. Tr.is prerogative was receg. nised indirectly by Magna Cirria. as the roads pance frrint, in his mind alluded r this prcroga. tive. But the question was not now as to the exist ence of this ortrogative, but whether fte me . !sitre ROW rrci *.vas expedient Now it svas to 1:e re collected, that all the difficulties of tlt;s Ji li had been grappled with 'or the whole peticd sinze Those who spn'se against this Bill must think, that the moment the seal was put to a Treaty of we were from that moment iu the en . ;oyitma ..1 kik the blessings or peace—that :after the world had been coovulsed for more than t—enty years, its elements were at once to subside. Such was not his opinion; therefore he thought the measure one which prudence . required ; and that. which had existed for sweitty•Eve years, with advantage, ought to he contiautd, suia ject to modifications and limitations. What emu li mitations were to be, would be a question in the Coek mittee on the Bill. Lord HOLLAND said, that the Noble and verb Learned Le , rd who sooka last, had not been 41.• u adduce one instanze is which the prerogative in que:- tion had been exercised —Many occasions had oc curred on which it would have suited the views et the Court to have taken alvantage of such a prur(- gative ; yet it never had la.e.n exercised. He travel the different occasions from the time of Queen Li zalseth to the present period, on which thi. prerog,- dye might have been, but iNda not acted upon. Lie argued that the effect of the Bill would be to make Aliens subservient to the Giv:rnment of the cowl try, who might make them St•TVe as tools in meatxres to subvert Cie Clnstitution of the country. It it should unfottimately hap ; en that the 811 pal through the plesent stage, h hoped time w , 4111 tae given to move amendriews in the Conttniwe. Lord E.ELENBOROUGIi said, as to the gut's tiOn.of prerogative, that the right of reniuviog was a most.uudoubted privilege, not only of the S.e . vereign of this country but every other nati,oi.-- This was a right clearly lai t down by all writers G 3 the Laws of Nations. He cl.iimeJ rir.lit ors bc half of every Sovereign. A power of inter !or the putp;:se of protecting was inseparable the exercises of the !mica o 3 of Sovereign. '1 bit right in the British nation w.ts to be exercised for a breach of a prochtmatinn. It was to be obwrv.:), that twelve mouths' impriso , .inent was Vie maxilla:at of the punishment autln rised by this Act. UlllO-1 the intrusion of mischievo , ts spirits was guarded against by such a measure we might expose ourseaves to dangers that would ultimately overturn and de stroy OM' G )r.s titution. Earl GREY thoight, from all that had paSied during this debate, that this Bill was one which might be vuted for, but which could not be dcfend..d. —Notwithstanding all that had been said on the subject of prerogative, no proof of the existence of it had been adduced. Nay, in a question of English law and English prerogative, the only authwity which had been quoted was that of Vattell, a foieign writer. No one doubted that the power of sending Aliens out of the kingdom was vested in the Sove reign authority, but then the Crown was only part of the Sovereign authority in this kingdom, and that such a' power was vested in the Crown of England might be asserted but could not be proved. The Earl of LIVE 11.1 ) 00L contended for the ex