Star. — London, England, 1804-02-09 00:00:00

h a t to the adoption (tithe Volunteer fyftetn, which, he lays, became more apparent, becarife our friends on the Continent did not, after the war broke out, teem mar difpofed to *!fill us. Sagacious Statefmcn would mutt probably have afted otherwife ; but our Minifterr, it feents, went into this war without any _ ..... __ . . huh alliance, and were thereftwe compelled to adopt the Volunteer fyftens. Sir, Ido not think that fyf tem the bell that could be deviled for the defence of the country, and for callin g forth the energies of the I na tion. do not even think it the bed fyllem ou th _ point of economy. Nu man is more ready than I am to praife the Volunteers. No man has done more to promote its ends, fince I found Government eietermined to adopt it to its prefent extent, though I have never confidered it as giving full and liberal (cope to the zeal and energy of the nation. But Go hernment have been wavering all through this Wines, sod have (offered themfelves to get into new paths from which they are not yet extricated. Firft, they produced the General Defence Bill, out of which -grew the Volunteer fy nem. The Secretary of State foals of 350,000 men Harting forth to arm in defence of the country. I am fine I am little difpoled to depreciate them, or to accufe Miniflers of wilfully imifleading the country. But we ought ferioufly and fairly to confider what we have to trig! to in this and mars of the Volunteer fyftem. I believe any Fn puty Lieutenant, or Lieutenant of Divifion, ows very well that the fart returns are not to be depended upon as returns of effective firength. Per ron at the ettablifhment of the inflitution, of all ages and in all Rates of health, came forward to be Vo lunteers, and hence a confiderable number mud, of ueceffity, he compofed of incompetent perfons. Then came the reflritlion, during the time Lord Hobart held the Office, of the number of Volunteers in each county to fix times the number of the Militia, and this operated to damp the fpirit and cool the ardour of many. It is, however, to be regarded as a for tunate circumfiance that the enemy did not cone among us at that time. But the fpirit of the Volun teas role again with its original lufire,aotvcitlifland ing all the circumflances which had tended to per plex it. But what was his Majefty's Minifters' bona fie intention in the various Bills they introduced on that fubjeft? Did they not mean to grant exemptions? Sir, every man who volunteered in the corps with which I am conneeted, is a Volunteer without ex emptions. The tendency of the exemptions is to pre vent all the other fort of fervice from going on.— Alma all the young, flout, able-bodied perfons, are among the Volunteers. The other Cervices are all fettered. But what are you to do after eflablilhing this fyftem ? Why you mull make as much of it AS u can. To do Co, you mull make it perfectly pa latable to the people. The Learned Gentleman op poke me (the Attorney General); and the Solicitor General gave it as their opinion that the Volunteers were exempt from the operation of the Militia and the Army of Referee.. Then came the queftion upon refignation, upon which we have had the opinion the Attorney General, that no Volunteer had a righ to refign ; but which opistion is now let afide. They had, it feems, the legal right of refignation, and that without any penalty whatever ; they had only to pull off their accoutrements, and lay down their arms, if, indeed, they had any, for that was not always the cafe, and walk out of the corps. The Right Hon. Secretary of State has this night told this Houle, that had the Court of Ring's Bench agreed with his Majedy's Attorney General, in his opinion refpefting the Volunteers right of refignation, lie had intended to bring iii a Bill to give them that right. Now this is really curious. He had fent a circular letter, pro claiming this opinion of the Attorney General as the law on the fubjeft ; Magiftrates have afted upon it ; men have been made to feel the weight of magillerial interpretation of the law, founded on this entirely ; and, after all, it turns out that this is quite contrary to law ! I have a perfect refpeft for the Learned Gentleman's opinion ; but, I mutt fay, - that if it had been a comet opinion, I fliould have felt mylelf, in common with many others, much aggrieved. But, Sir, I do think the country may have fume right to complain of the condo& of the Right Honourable Secretary of State, in fending forth through the country as law, that which was not Law, or u hie+, if 1 thought it was law, he intended to repeal. Sir, I repeat, that I with to have every degree of jutlice done to the Volunteers, but with refpeft to the boafted economy of the fyflem, I with to fay a few words. (Economy, Sir, to whom ? The public ? Who are the public ? Is it any difference whether a man pay Sol. or five (billings, or any other fum to a tax gatherer, or to a fubfertption rendered neceffitry from exigen. Lies, and becoming every day more and more eon'. pulfory ? I am lure, the economy of the f y item is not one of its recommendations. Now, Sir, there is an evil attending the co-ps, which, as matters now Rand, cannot be remedied. They are a great many of them in a conflant danger of diffolution ; not from any with not to ferve, but from other circumftances ; for indaiice, an Officer is to be eldled ; they appeal to their terms of ft:trice, and their original right of re commending their. Officers. What is the answer ? " You cannot he attended to. Von (hall be difmilled the fervice. You (hall be clifbanded." It a corps, compofed of a thoufand men, be broken up in this way, even though they all cuter into other corps,, will they be the fame men as they were in the corps in which they were h u ll brought together and duel plined ? I alto apprehend the diffolutton of corps from the want of fufficient funds. It will be impoftible for them to go on without funds. Hardly any corps I know off is out of debt. As to the caufes of this, they May be various. Many have tried to excel and out Chip others in the fplendoor of their &els, and have gone on in this till they have been checked by cape sicnce, and taught to be more humble from their po verty. Not that I find much fault with a little love of 'hew in loch cafes; when men become a fort of (oldies, they naturally with to make as good an sp. penance as poftible. But men mat be clothed, and how can you clothe a man, and pnt a great coat on his hack tinder four pounds ? Now, I know of great innances of liberality, and of attention to cheap cloth ing, and yet the funds have proved deficient, though rio perfon has been mean or illiberal, certainly, or - deed, nort profile. Why then, the confequence of dick thitigs is a fecund fubfcription, and this is made up, but though done by them relunantly, falls ulti mately upon the liberal. A regulation has alfo been made, drawing a line between a man who has been in the army, and one who has not, of which I can- Ma perceive the wigloat and propriety. I have tnnehed on thefe points for the porpore of calling his Majefty's Minifiers attention to them. lam lorry to fay, that on the 1116)01 of the defence . of the country, they teem to me to have been going &Otrom error to error. Perhaps the Supplementary Militia was going too far. 1 remember that my opinion on that point was a little arengthcned by a fubfequent mea fore of the Adminiftration, of which a Right Hon. Gentleman now in my eye (Mr. Windham). formed a part. I mean the inciting the Militia to enter into the Army. Since this we have had the prefent Vo lunteer fyftem, which has been carried to fo greatan eztent. It is, Sir, for that Right Hon. Gentleman. to whom his Majefty is pleated to intrun the manage. ment and direCtion of the affairs of this kingdom ' to devife fuch meafures as are for its fecurity and ho nour. It is for me, as a Member of Parliament, to point out any objeftions to what I confider faulty. I imagine, Sir, th st as things are, we mutt depend in a great degree upon the Volunteer fyftem. I therefore with Minifters to conlid , r every thing conneBed with it. I would recommend to them to confider the fob. kin of pay. The former Alf fpecified only twenty days, but this Mt fpecifies twenty four days. I Ihould be forty to fee any Gentlemen compelled to pay for all this entirely at his own ezpence." Mr. WINDHAM remarked on the profeffions of Come Gentlemen who had gone before him, that the recommendation of the Right Honourable mover of the queftion before the Houle ought to be attended to, namely. that the difeuffion of the quell;on Ihould be refereed for a future Rage. Although thefe Gen tlemen had thought proper to difcard their own pre cepts, he Ihould adhere to the recommendation of the Right Honourable mover, and fhnuld referee his re marks upon the fubjeCt till a future opportunity, be caufe he felt that to be the proper mode of proceed ing. There were to be lure many topics upon which he meant to animadvert, many obfervations to which he (bouts! be lorry not to reply ; and upon thefe points he fhould not now be fluent, if that filence could be confidered any thing like acquiefcence in any of thole parts of the queilioa which were worthy of remark. His remarks, he repeated, he would poll. pone in purfitance of the recommendation of the Right Hon mover, but it would not be incontinent with that refolution to oblerve upon the exhortation of the Right Hon. Gentleman, that Gentlemen fhould come to this difeuffion with temperance—that they fhnuld avoid heat and violence ; that, indeed, they Ihould attend to all the old precepts of moral phi's+. ((why. The propriety of this exhortdion he would not difpute, becaufe he really could not underlland it. nor at whom it was pointed : nor had he any dif pofition at all at prefent to difpute with the Right Hon. Gentleman. for the reafons he had Rated, and alto becaufe he really thought it would be ungener ous to attack him now—he had enemies enough about him, for he had the opinion of the King's Attorney General, the decifinn of the Court of King's Bench, and his own Aet of Parliament. With thefe foes he was engaged in a kind of running fight, not filch a ene, however, as the naval officer in the lag Gazette, who terminated the fight by a triumph over his ad verlarics. It was grange to hear the Right Hon. mover talk of the evils infeparable from the Volun teer fyttem ; all thefe topics, however, he would fuf. pond ; but yet he could not help giving vent to his furprife. not at what was propoled by the Right Hon. mover, but at what was not propnfed. He would for the prefent content himfelf with ftrnngly recommending to the Right Hon. Gentlemen to confider. before the next Rage of the debate, whether what they had pi-minted were really adequate to the public exigency ; whether by Inch tempritifing ex pedients, by loch connivances, by fetch mere 'craps and fhreds, they could promote the obje& they pro feffed to have fh view ; they could appeafe the eager expeftations of the country t —whether lornething more fubßantial was not looked for, and ought not to be deviled 3 He adjured the Right Hon. Gentle man and his colleagues to confider the real fituation of the county ; and whether its greatt-I danger does not refult from the inefficiency of the Volunteer Of. tern, from its ambiguities, amendments, explana tions, &c. Sic. all confiding, And joining with each other—whether the failure of this their fundamental fyftem of our defence. is not certain—whether this, their great edifice of Itrength, is not conitrufted of materials fo %intuitable, that a few months, perhaps a new weeks, mull complete its ruin. It is now almon evident to any man, that the downfal of this fabric is near, and that merely putting a few bricks here and there, or plailering it a little in front, cannot put this crazy maidinn into a tenantable !late. The Right Honourable Gentleman, in forcible terms, urg ed Minifters to take an enlarged view of the fubjeet, and conjured the Houfe to come to the confideration of it. fully prepared for a folemn and deliberate dif cliflion—with their minds fitted calmly to invettigate and correaly to udge upon the important (plenum, which the meaf ure fiibmittcd by the Right Hon. mover, will naturally bring before them. Colonel EYRE expreffed himfelf fully fatisfied with the principles of the propofcd Bill, as explained liy the Secretary of State ; and thought, that fo fat would it be from being confidered by the Volunteers as a breach of faith, or a meafure to damp their generous ardour in the fervice of their country, that it would operate as a meafura of confolidatimi to their ftrength, and give a new and mote effeftnal Itimulus to their military and patriotic exertions. He was convinced, that innead of tendering the Vo lunteer fyftem that crazy and tottering ftrufture de. fcribed by the Right Hon. Gentleman on the floor (Mr. Windham), it would bind and cement it into , a glorious and impregnable bulwark for the defence of the coortry. Sir JOIN WROTTESLEY rote, not to enter generally into the queftion of the principle of the Bill, but to exprefs his hope that in the future application of the Volunteer fyftem, the diftribution would be mere equal. In one part of the country where he !elided, the Volunteers Corps railed and armed were numerous and effeftive ; while in other parts, the numbers were extremely few. But with rept& to the queftion of exemption from other branches of the public fervice nn account of having entered as Voltm leer:, he verily believed there was tint a (Ingle man in that part of the country where he, lived, who had vo lunteered under any ide a of exemption, or who would not be ready and willing to come forward in any way which the erigenfies of the public )fervicc might :e -t:vire for the gen:ral defence of the country. Mr. YORKE rote to reply to tome ebtervatirms which had bees offered in ditapprubaLica of the principle propofed by his BM. But fiat, in anfwer to what had fallen from the Hon. Baronet, he Cud, Government, in the dittribution of the Volunteer armed force, had aka as the exigencies of the pub lic fervice feemed to require, or as local circum- LITICCS rendered necelTary. With retina to the con dition upon which an Hon. Gentleman uppofite to him (Mr. Whitbread) had Rated the Volunteers, generally, to have offered their fervices ; namely, that of having the privilege continually of eleaing their own Officers, he denied that fuch a principle ever was recognized by Government. It sas poffible that the Lord Lieutenants of counties, to whom fuch offers of let vice were firft tendered, might ngt always tranfmit the tenders to his Majefty's Secre tary of State, in the precife words in which filch tenders were originally made ; but certainly, fince he had the honour of coming into an official depart ment of his Majefty's Government, he had no re colleaion of any offer made or accepted upon any fuch principle. There had come, from many popu lous towns and diarias tenders of tervice upon the principle of chu fi ng and recommending their own Officers ; but Government. without a breach of the military ptisciple, could do no more than connive at the cuftom, which, though they might have done it, it was never meant as an acknowledgment of that as a general principle which was contrary to the fpi rit of military law; and certainly, fince he had the honour of filling fuch a fituatiun in the military de partment of adminiltration, he knew of no offers of fervice accepted upon filch conditions as thole of continuing to elea their Officers after the formation •ol the corps was firft completed. The diffinaion to be taken between the lim o agreement amnngft the Members of a Corps to affociate for the purpofe of offering their fervice in the public defence—and re. commending from amongfi their number the perfons whom they willed to be officers, to be approved by his Mikity, and the fituation of that corps after it was completed and acknowledged as a Military Corps, was pretty obvious ; and, indeed, from the very na ture of military fervice it was imp , ffible that Govern ment could accede to fuch a principle with any corps as the permanent right of eleaing their Officers.—' Suppote, for inftance, in cafe of - afloat fervicc in the field, a body of Volunteers going into aaiou befide any other troops of the line, or Militia, and' that any of their Officers fhould be killed in affirm ; was that corps, the moment the araion was over, to I proceed to the elation of Officers from amongft themfelves, to fill up the vacancy, without appealing to the judgment of a Commander in Chief ? He by no means meant to deny their right of recommending perfons whom they conceived eligible for Officers; but there was a material difference between the right of recommending, and that of eleaing. By denying the latter, it was by no means to be implied, that Officers were to be forced upon thole corps without, in any degree, confulting their withes and attach ments. It was not to be prefumed, that in recom mending perfons as eligible for Officers in fuch corps that the Lord Lieutenant of a county would give filch recommendation without confulting the Com manding Officer of !itch corps, and exercifing his own judgment in drooling filch a perfon as was moll likely to bear their confidence and attachment. The Hon. Member had argued as if the right of perma- I neatly eleaing their Officers was the general idea of all the Volunteer Corps ; whereas, from the bell in formation lie conid colic& on the fubjea, no fuch idea was generally entertained. But if at was potable, that any fuels notion had generally gone forth, or even that fuch a principle did really exalt, was it to be argued, that if fuch a principle was found to be inexpedient and injurious to the objeas of public fer vice, that Parliament was to. have no privilege of reviling the Volunteer fyftem, and making fuch amendments as obvious neceffity fhould point not, without incurring the charge of breaking faith with the Volunteers? He truited, that nothing which he had urged in fupport of the neceffity of loch amend ments, could be enflamed to convey the flighteft im putation upon that gallant and patriotic body of men; btu furely, that could not be called a breach of faith which recognized the right of every Volunteer, who di:liked the continuance of his fervices, under the new regulation, to withdraw himfelf horn his corps, recollcaing, however, at the fame time, that by fuch relignation, he (wandered all claims of exemption from the ballet for other br4nches of the public once to which he bemuse entitled under the firft regula tion. Another point adverted to in the Bill, was the increafe propelled in the number of days fervice, fro m 20 days to 14 days ; but this he thought could make no very material difference to individuals. Mr. WHITBREAD rote to explain. He (aid, that what he called a breach of faith, was, that after putting men to conliderable expellee and trouble in acquiring difcipline, under certain acknowledged principles, by which they were taught to confider themfelves exempt from the Militia and Army of Re terve, a new pi inciple is brought forward, to which, unlefs they think fit to accede their former exertions go for nothing, and their exemptions are forfeited.— If the Right Hon. Gentleman denied the right of Volunteer Corps to dal from aniongft themielves the perfons whom they Ihould approve for their Of ficers, he begged to know, how it was that the Lon don and Wellminfter Light Wife continued to this day to exercife that privilege ; fur furely if it was the right of one Volunteer Corps it was equally that of another. Mr. Secretary YORKE anfwercd, that the pin ciple upon which that Corps was conitituted, differed molt materially horn cut y other in the Iv ewe.— They were a much older Corps than any either, and the principle of elating and :ecrmmending their own Officers, was a comps& agreed to by his Majetiy, upon their formation. They had beiid: another pri• vilege peculiar to them, that their appointments came not through the Lord Lieutenant of the county, but dirca from the Secretary rf State. So long as his Ma: j elly Mould think it cap, dient to continue the fer vices of this Corps, his M..:tty would, no (kola. maintain towards theta the terms of their original contlitution : but certainly no fuch principle was im plied or undo-flood by Government in refpea to the Volunteer Carpi, in general, a. now formed. Mr. WHITBREAD t eplicil, that though, accord ing to the argument of the Right Hon. Genticm tn. the Crown 1 ad the privilege of rtjeaing the claims of the Volunteers to choofe their own Otfiects, he hoped its Knitters would have the wifslonz to advite the Pomo not to exert it. He trailed they tro-1.1 icroselly sae cautioutly trade, Wine they ventured to precipitate a meaftire which. 0 yak *ems theS prelim, might be produetive °fibs oak eisikbk. anus corifequences. , Mr. STURGES joined In esprei leg bk fedfdli nnt at what was intended to be done by the motion, but at what was not done. He thourtlit a bufinefs of fo great importance as {lie pedant, • ' would have originated with greeter propriety us a Committee of the whok Houle: There it was more likely that a cotrpaa and regular fabric might have been conftruaed, than in the loofe manner in which the prefent motion was introduced. Government, he conceived, was guilty of fomething like a breach of faith, in attempting to commute the five days rervice in contemplation of wlsich Volunteers had engaged; into a dervice of so days. It was no doubt Paid to them, that they were at liberty to withdraw; but then, it was alto laid, that if they chore to continue, they molt do fo on terms different from thole on ohich• they engaged. He hoped the Right Isn. Secretary would fully weigh the principles on which he was proceeding. He trolled that he would avail himfelf of the period which might elapfe previous to the introdu6tion of the Bill, to take into ferrous con fideration the objeaions which had been fuggefted by many Gentlemen of talents in this Houle.- There were unfortunately ender the prefent adminiftration of affairs, men of great talents in this Houle, who were never heard but within the walls of it The ATTORNEY GENERAL expreffed his opinion that every advantage which could be derived from the bufinefs originating in a Committee of the Houle, would equally arife from the prefent dilcuf fioo. It was unquestionably the province of Mini , flers to proper& what they thought belt calculated for the fervice of the country, and to bear the lugger'. lions of the Houfe on the fobjea. His Ltarncl Friend (Mr. Sturges) bad accured Government of breach of faith. This he could not conceive to be carte& Had Government altered the terms on. which the Volunteers had been engaged, and had, ' notwithltanding. refufed them the liberty of refign ing,ther: might have been fomeground for the charge but if, on the other hand, Government found that it bad ailed in an impolitic manner. it would be ridi culous to fuppofe that they were not entitled to change the fyllem. The opinion which he had delivered on the fubjeril of Volunteers, he was now inkruesd was erroneous. He would be glad, however, to know what Volunteers had engaged to do If they bad not engaged to come out when called on, they had engaged to do nothing. He thould not detain the Route with Rating the grounds of the opinion be bad given, which he was now convinced was erroneous. Mr. STURGES-explained. Mr. T. GRENVILLE role s rat to debate se • large the whole of the propofed Bill in detail, as there would be many opportunities for doing that in the cootie of its fubfequent Rages, but to abidefry the injunaions of the Right Hon. Secretary on the ppm , ing of his propofition, by receiving from him calmly the explanation he had to give, and deferring debate upon the fribjea to a future opportunity f he could not, however, leave that Houle, without exprefutg his furprize and alionifhment, in common with his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Windham), at the explanation he had given. He coincided in the ju dicious fuggefticn of Learned * Gentleman tinder the gallery (Mr. Sturges), notwithfianding the man ner in %%loch his opinion had been attacked by the Attorney General, and from which it would feet* almolt criminal to call in quefiion the ermfnenmato wiftiont of his Majeßy's Miniflers, upon a fabjefl se • which they had already difpireal Co much verfatir lity of opinions and condo& He could not, how• ever, fee the criminality of fuggelling to his Ma. jelly's Minillers, the propriety of an appeal to the united %victims' of that Houle, upon bringing forward a queflion of fetch vital importance, iniiead o: pm► ing forward with one fo utterly and totally insider quate to the objea propofed. It was not his inters. tion to have Paid fo much in the relent Rage of the bufinefs; but his objea in riling was to detend the right and neceffity of appeal to a committee of the whole Houle, upon a meafirre of k. much impor. lance; and for the friggeftion of which fn muck cenfure bad been thrown upon the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. He &mild not now argue. whether nV not the difmiffal of a Corps for &fretting the right of elcling their Officers, was or was not a breach of faith on the part of Government ; but he fiecerd/ recommended to his Maje.ty's Minifters, before they brought forward the qoellion for ultimate dircuffions to make up their minds. and learn to agree with each other upon the point, for this night they teemed at variance. The Right Hon. Gentleman alerted that the right of eleaing officers never was poirdTed by the Volunteers, and that the denial of that right was no breach of faith. The Millie Lord (Caillereagli) argued as if it was a breach of faith ; for though he flared Itch a claim to be a violation of the military piinciple, and fo far agreed with his Right Hon. Colleague, yet much as he admired and loved that principle, he thonght it good in time cafes only ter be departed (rim ; for he soured. that the Crow Ihnuld mull tenaciouQy keep faith with the Volvo leers up-n this point. The Right Hen. Secretary of State arllrted the right of the Crown to dirmifs any Corps afferting inch 64 privilege; and (Ise Noble trod, while he admitted the right of the Crown, iriiled von the neceffity of relaxing it in this cafe. Upon which of thefe was the Houle to fa their cone. dance ? or how was the Hours to accept a propnfition, as adecorate to its purports. upon which his ?d.j.:l4'e Minillers, Wing in C.,uncil by each other, could not agree ? Lord CASTLEREAGH, in explanation, eienied that he had offered the arguments imputed to him by the Right Hon. Gentleman ; or that any thin% he had raid in the cootie of the debate w..s at Vat •Ance with the arguments of his Right Honourable Friend the Secretary of State, or his Learned Friend the Attorney General. What he had raid was, that if there w rs anv particular corps contlituted with the patticular privilco,e r f elating its own Officer*, by fpecial compai with the er.io n, fo long as that corps was allowed to tontinuc its elitlence, the Crowe was bound to klcp both with it ktupolorifly, epos the terms and cot. fitia.ns of their original Continua lion; hut he by no means denied the privilege of the Crown to diimifs that corps wheneser it Ibould be deemed esped;ent to diiicontinin its fervices. Mt. IIOBHOUSE recapitulated formai of the arguments which had been urged on both fides of the queßion. Upon the whole be concluded, dim; as tome Gcodersaa had *smiled their &girlie end