Star. — London, England, 1819-02-23 00:00:00

the same time that their duty and their &ants I point out to them not to put bounds to their in shewing attachment towards their venerable they should carefully guard themselves ipromming in that expression any of those , important duties which were owing to the and their constituents. The Noble Lord not have been too hasty in thus urging upon of Members of the Royal Family measure were likely to meet an equivocal reception. ', and he was willing to' ive the Noble eve ry credit for his disinterestedness, that he reluctant agent in the anir. Perhaps,, if his had been consulted, be would have urging it at all upon the House; but W be resolved that this £IO,OOO a year was be , in the name of common justice, let it be upon the proceed% of the Privy Purse, and as convinced the measure would meet with objection from any part of the House. If Highness had been aware of the discussions ,is would provoke, he was sure he would of decline altogether accepting it. The Minis , already brought some of the Members of oval Family into rather awkward situations the flonsc by the measures which were proposed , r , when, in one instance, he set out by asking .2.1,01. a-year, but in a retrograde movement he subsequently made, he was glad to corn influence by accepting the sum of 60001. ,:ers may, perhaps, think themselves justified in - ng their reputation with the House fear ,but they should ever remember, that, by iden ig themselves with the Members Of the Royal ay, they unguardedly pledged them to an ex that was not compatible with their character or i ty . These Royal Personages had a high cha rto preserve and keep nn, which was not to be ' with wantonly, and which Ministers were too ising in meddling with. He would again say, :rom the character of his Royal Highness the of York, he was convinced that ROyal Per- re • would withdraw his claim of £lO,OOO ;tar, rather than subject himself to the angry issue a discussion which it would necessarily provoke. should not be glad to be forming unpleasing anti 'ion, but he should be almost inclined to suspect, in the end he should get nothing. He felt the iety of trespassing so long upon the House ; he could not help taking a review of the kindly ition which Parliament had ever shown towards Gown since 1811 ; and perhaps it would not be _nye a name to designate its return, by calling ingratitude. By 51st of the King, 60,0001. was ited for the use of his Majesty, besides the profits the Duchy of Lancaster, which are .estimated at 1 /. a year. Since 1810, from the estimates, it , appear that there were net savings from the hey Purse amounting to 57,0001. and these were •creasing. The Prince t had also his Privy together with 10,0001. more really; aides Prince o ales and Duke of Corn. I all, he received 17,0001. more, making a total of 1,0001. a year. Of this he had appropriated a sum '50,000/. a year to pay his debts, asides the allow to the Princess of Wales; but as for the fint, if as it has often been called, a sacrifice on his loyal Highness's part; he should . .ae glad to know lea much the public gained by it, for they were ac etify paving his debts at this moment ? Yet, after i'..hesu instances of unexampled liberality, the tli iimagain comes forward and claims 10,000/. a year ewe, and will even go to far as to characterize as things an unwillingness to grant it—(llear, hear). Ire was nothing preposterous or unreasonable in ii proposed mode, and be would divide the House ',:a its expediency. It should be the endeavour of stry Ivan in that House to land himself to such re :ions as the present distressed state of the country d'Al fat; and it was incumbent on them to shield Crwipale country, and all the property of the coun ty, from being thrown f at the mercy, or being in x.ted by the affected and canting phrase of Ministers. Kr. Piet. and the SOLICITOR-GENERAL rose at he same time, but there was a general call for Mr., Peel, and the Honourable and Learned Gentleman pre way. Hr. PEEL said he was aware of the disadvantage to which he exposed himself in following the Right lion. Gentleman, yet be was anxious thus early to aildre,s to the House a few observations before their attention was exhausted. Notwithstanding the speech tithe Right Hon. Gentleman, he (Mr. Peel) still re- Liked the same opinion upon this question with which ite had come down to the House. From the time silts the Right Hon. Gentleman had given notice o: the nature of the proposition which he intended to, Inbmit to the House, there was but one opinion which he could bring himself to entertain of it, so hr as concerned the tenure of the property with Ibich it went to interfere. So far as related to the right of property it was a flagrant violation of jus *.—(Ncar.) So far as it concerned the feelings of tti MmLer of the Royal Family, it was indelicate— Oho, hear,)—and so far as regarded the public in lett, it was no more than a monstrous violation of i+blic principle, turredeemeel and uncompensated by to sordid a d vantage proposed.—(Hchr, heal-, hear.) ' diwnisia7, the question, however, he thought it t: 4 ocessary to enlist on his side of the argument at which night be drawn from the rank of the So. 'riga, ar,d affection to his person. He was pre -10,1, leaving these topics untouched, to treat the (11:tstion temperately and dispassionately on its own .t.terilt, confining himself to that part of the ques ste_.which went to the appropriation of the surplus l'„ tae privy p urse f or the expenses of the Custos.l ,' s '-e ryht llonourable Gentleman, in the conduct of, argument, had thought it material to consider t*lent was the privy purse. In his recapitulation of to various Acts of Parliament upon the subject, he Wer.tuod theßight Honourable Gentleman to say,' t' t h e Act o: the 39th and 4.oth of the King was _e,.,e-t !hest in whi c h t h ere was any ment i on o f t h e ' 1 t.., : a Y Purse—that in thi s A ct not hi ng was said as to 4 am nt et the p r i v y purse , and that it was not , i begti the t :'e kit !l c the 51st, that any mention was ma de, pictise amount. Now this, he maintained, has ~, ers .o.np,etely erroamts statement-of thc factul u e not an allocation of the sum for the privy /rite before the list of the 39th and 40th ? If there It'at. t., , atn.d.if it had been recognised by Parliament, the' `,', 11 Honour.ible Gentknian's argument must fail. .., ti tle Was „ . . • ,_,ng.tt to a ppropriate C 60,000 for the privy purse won the SOdi and 40th, , then that Act must be considered as putting the Crqrn in full pot:. session of a right to that sum ; and if so, any attempt to interfere with it now was a gross violation of the right and principles of property. On these premises he founded his argument. Now the fact was, that between the Act of the I s t, an d t h e . 39th and 40th, an Act was passed in which there was a dis thict mention of the privy purse. It was an Act which directed that certain Estimates should be made out for the appropriation of the whole sum at the disposal of the Crown, and that when they were so made out, they should be submitted for the approbation of Parliament. Pursuant to this Act Estimates were made out--one was for the sum of 60,000/. as the Privy Purse, and it received the sanc tion of Parliament ; this was decisive. Therefore, in 1782, there was a direct recognition by Parlia ment of the amount of the Privy Purse. Mr. Peel 'then drew the attention of the Committee to Mr. Pitt's Bill in the year 1788 or 1789, when a Regency was in contemplation. He made a particular refe rence to the clause in which a provision was made for what was considered his Majesty's private pro perty, by an exception in favour of the renewal of leases, &c. Provision was also made for any surplus which might arise in trust for his Majesty. The Ho nourable Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) •had remarked, that if the money arising from the Privy Purse had been diverted from its supposed definitive object in one instance, why not in more? If the Medical at tendants were at any time paid out of it, why not apply it• to defray the 10,0001. for the (7ustos ? But the Honourable Gentleman would please to recollect that such a misapplication of it would be the viola tion of an Act of Parliament. If, says the Ho nourable Gentleman, you charged the Privy Purse sometimes with the Medical Attendants prior to the Act of 1812, why not charge it also with the ten thou sand pounds for"the Custos in the year 1819? The Honourable Gentleman stated that he had already noticed that such a misapplication of the Privy Purse would be a violation of the Act of Parliament.-- The Honourable Member might as well ask, why not have charged the Privy Purse with the £lO,OOO granted to the Qucen in 1811., when Mr. Perceval brought forward his propositions respecting the Windsor Establishment ? He had recommended the appointimmt of a Secret Committee to inquire into the state ef the Privy Purse, and to report thereon.l But when that question was under the consideration of the House, two Gentlemen, then Members of that House (Mr. Sheridan and Mr. Adam), although always voting with Opposition, reprobated the ap pointment of any such Committee, affirming, that on, so delicate a subject they could not, on their parts, permit any inquiry of the nature then suggested. The one was a Gentleman deservedly esteemed by the Honourable Member (Mr. Tierney) and his friends; and the other had long been the admiration of every one for the uncommon brilliancy of his talents, and wonderful powers of eloquence. It was to be hoped therefore, that the Gentlemen on the opposite side would shew their regard for such respectable autho rities by voting for the original motion. The Royal Duke (York) was about to be invested with an office of the highest importance, in addition to that which he now held, and the duties of which he had so laudably discharged. But if Gentlemen were ap prehensive that his Royal Highness would have too, great power and authority, they ought to remember that Parliament had not left him alone in the exercise of his new functions; trey had granted him a Corn- 1 cil, with 'whom his Royal Highness would advise. The Privy Purse was protected as the King's private property by several Acts of Parliament. If it had been thought expedient to grant the sum of £60,000 1 for die Privy Parse, he saw no solid reason for its re duction. If Parliament chose, in its legislative capa city, to order that any surplus of the £60,000, after; defraying the usual appropriations, should be invested in the hands of Commissioners, to accumulate as his Majesty's private property, that surely ought to be a sufficient protection for it ; and any surplus could not be diverted into another channel without a violation of the Act of Parliament. In addition to the £60,000, there was an equal good authority for the £lO,OOO arising from the Duchy of Lancaster. Both funds, supounting to £70,000, were then private property to the King, assigned for his own uncontroulledidispo sal. If the Gentlemen on the other side assumed to themselves the power of diverting part of the Privy Purse to purposes foreign to she meaning of the Acts of Parliament, then they might with equal authority order a transfer of the money arising from the Duchy of Lancaster to ,defray the salary intended for the Custos. The Honourable Member, in elucidating the subject of the Duchy of Lancaster, made references is far back as to the time of Edward IV. when it was distinguished as belonging to the Crown.— He exposed the absurdity, besides injustice, of the Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House. They admitted the power of Parliament to ligislate for the protection of private property, but wpuld not allow such a protection for his Majesty. It was hard, in deed, that the King should be the only man in his dominions who could not maintain his rights, although assigned to him for his sole use by various Acts of Parliament. It would be a curious anomaly to find it described- 46 That whereas his Majesty's faithful Commons, for the purpose of supporting the Royal Dignity; had resolved to grant a certain sum during his Majesty's life, now think it necessary to reduce the same." Goo forbid (exclaimed the Hon. Member) that our beloved Sovereign, when.recovering from his indisposition, should discover that a proposition of the nature now before the House had been agi tated in Parliament—( hear, hear.) • 'Mr. BANKS supported the amendment. Although he confessed himself against the spoliation of all pri vate property, yet he did not view the question the same manner as his Noble Friend (Castlereagh or the Hon. Member who had just sat down. Witb., regard to the appropriation of the Privy Purse, Ile , saw no difference between the Medical Attendants and the Custos. if it could be diverted in one in stance, why not in another? The last Hon. Member thought that he had formed a very triumphant argu ment when he drew his distinction between the Me dical Atteitdants and the Custos . ; and alleged, that as the Queen had the allowance of £lO,OOO a year, the Duke of York ought to have the same. lie be stowed many encomiums on her late Majesty ; but saw no,reason why she had such a surn allowed to her. With respect to the queition now before them, ite declared himself to be of the Timepinion with the Honourable Gentleman (Mi. y) who had moved the amendment. At all events,• the sum pro posed was too much. But he hoped the vote of that night would put the affair to rest. These were not times for enlarging our expenditure. The pressure of the times was too heavy on the people not to ren der economy necessary in, every department of the State. He wished the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) would withdraw his motion. If he (Mr. Banks) rightly recollected, the Nobletord was of a different opinion about a week ago. . Mr. WILMOT considered the present, not a ques tion of policy, but a question of common law. It was not whether we should give the King this or that sum, but whether we should grant to his Royal Highness the Duke of York the same salary that was granted to her Majesty when she officiated as Custos? In every point of view, the Custos was a public offi cer, and therefore ought to be rewarded by the Pub lic. Notwithstanding the digresses of the times, he 'by no means considered the £lO,OOO as too much for an Officer of such vast importance. If even the re muneration had been greater, he would have readily given his consent to it. The Honourable Member professed his independence ; stated that he belonged to no party, but that he thought it his duty to give his vote in favour of the measure. He was a strenu- ous friend to economy; but while, on the one hand, he was anxious for the relief of the country, he was on the other equally anxious that there should be no violation of the faith of Parliament. • Mr. MARTIN (of Galway) cheerfully concurred with tire Noble Lord who had made the original Motion. The Honourable Member was clear that . _ _ his Royal Highness should have " the solid and sub stantial sum of £lO,OOO a year." 'lt was by no means too much. He would vote for it p and he was con vinced that fiis constituents would thank hint for the part he took on the occasion. "It you take it from the Privy Purse, you rob it ! and if you allow' any other to take it from the Privy Purse, you allow him also the power of robbing it !" The Honourable Member insinuated, that although a General Elec tion might not be at a great distance, yet he was not afraid to discharge his duty conscientiously, as there was not one of his constituents but would approve of his conduct. If the quetion were even fairly can vassed at the Hustings of Covent-Garden, the whole body of the people would be for it !—(Loud laughter, and hear, hear.) Mr. PROTHEROF: was sorry to have heard the communication which had been announced to the House by the Noble Lord, " that the Duke of York would not consent that the salary of custos should come fiom the Privy Purse." It had been insinuated that the Monarch had nd friends ; the Gentlemen who had advised these measures, were far from being the friends of the Monarch. He was for the Amendment, as requisite'on principles of public economy. Mr. HUSK ISSON had listened with much atten- tion to what had fallen from an Honourable Member opposite, (Mr. Banks;) and regretted that he differed so very widely from the Honourable Gentleman. He (Mr. Huskisson) couli not discharge his duty without saying, that the principles on which the motion of his Noble Friend were opposed appeared to him very erroneous. The last Gentleman who had spoken had ironically observed, that those who had advised the present measures were not friendly to the Monarchy. He and those with whom he had the honour"to act, were as friendly to the Monarchy, and as zealous for its true interest, as any class of men whatever. On every principle of general feeling and general policy, he was for the recognition of private property, and, therefore, was not for disturbing the Privy Purse. Every man who voted that nitiht would not vote ac cording to his convenience, but according to his con science. The office of Custos being one of great public trust, the salary ought not to be defrayed by the private property of his Majesty. The communi cation made that night by his Noble Friend, that his Royal Highness would never consent to commit any spoliation of his Father's private property was charac teristic of the Royal Duke, and highly honourable to his feelings. The whole Civil List, with the exception of the Prtvy Parse, was . appiopi hued by Parliament. Such an exception clearly proved, that the Legisla ture deemed it not publicly tangible. It, thereiore, ought not to be applied in the manner now proposed by the Honourable Gentleman who had moved the amendment. What did Parliament in 1812 ? By an inquiry into the state and nature of the Privy Purse, there was a general recognition that it was the private property of his Majesty. Any savings or surplus Parliament also deemed private property. What Parliament had, therefore, always considered as private property, ought not to be violated at `this time. The Honourable Member fortified his argu ments by references to the various Acts ; and called upon those whom he addressed, that they had a King, and that they were his subjects ; and, therefore, they ought not to allow any spoliation of his Majeey's private property. To agree to the amendment, would be a violation of the faith of Parliament. In stead of censuring his Noble Friend for the commu nication which he had that night made, he thought that his candour deserved the greatest praise, His Lordship did not wish to 'fight under a masked battery'. He came forward in a fair and manly man-, ner, avowing the principles of his proposition, and the affirmation of his Royal Highness; uhich re✓ fleeted much honour on his feelings. Let any Gen tleman ask himself bow he would feel, if deprived of his 'private property, as an individual? No man could endure any spoliation of: his private pro perty—(Hear)--therefore ask what would be the feelings of his Majesty, if it pleased PROVIDENCE WI restore him to his health, when he found the attempts made to commit aispoliation on his private property ; that property which' Parliament had protected by various laws ! The Duke was entitled to the same sum that had been panted to the late Queen. It; however, you do not chuse to remunerate the Duke according to his great merits, let Parliament preserve its honour reTpecting - the privy purse. Mr. HUME spoke in favour of the amendment, amidst repeated calls for the question. Lord . COMPTON was a friend to economy, where economy was legal and practicable. The legality of -encroaching upon the privy purse, was, at least, doubtful ; and the House, he was sure, would never interfere with their good old Sovereign (whom ail ad. Mired and loved), about a few thousand pounds. Mr. MANSFIELD deemed eamozny indispensk 4te from the pressure of the times, and should there we vote for the amendment. Mr. WILSON, though Ito would never be n fluenced by popular elutn io, said the pr o pos ed amendment should have his support. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN said, he codb not help expressing his indignation at keal ing that his Royal Highness the Duke of York was willing to take money from the pockets of an impoverished people, instead of the privy purse. Mr. DAVIS, with his mind perfectly open to con viction, was not satisfied of the legality of taking money from the Privy Purse. In the event of the Amendment being carried, he should feel it his duty to propose that the income of Prince Leopold should be taken into consideration; whose income (5000014 was as great as the whole of the King's Establish ment, and nearly three times as large as that of the junior branches of the Royal Family. He asked, whether any Member of the House, in assenting to Prince Leopold's grant,, did not consider it as in tended' for the widower of their future Qu'een ? And he wished to be informed why one Act of Parliament was to be held more sacred than another? Mr. S. WORTLEY opposed the Amendment. He was as much interested in the public burdens as any Member in that House—(lkar,)—but he must say, that if he should consent, for the convenience of the country, to appropriate a private sum to the pay ment of a public servant, he should believe himself to be doing a great wrong. The SOLICITOR GENERAL insisted, that if the Amendment were adopted, it would be tantamount to the Repeal of the various Acts of Parliament.— The Hon. Member made a very able speech in sup. port of the original Motion. The ATTORNEY GENERAL contended, that since the year 1782, in every account which had been laid on their table, the House had recognized the Privy Purse as the private property of the King. Mr. SCARLETI contended, on the other hand, that the Privy Purse was a public fund, and liable, like all others, to the disposal of Parliament. They were not now considering whether the Resolution by which the Privy Purse was settled at £60,000 a-year was a fitting Resolution or not, but whether the sub ject itself was proper to be brought before the House, and made the subject of Parliamentary inquiry.-- whether it was a subject fit for Parliamentary in quiry? He followed the Solicitor-General through the various Acts by which this fund was regulated, and drew from them an inference the opposite of that for which his Learned Friend had coraenned. He observed, that if on the day when the first Bill was passed any one had proved satisfactorily that the estimate on which it %rent was too great, Parlia ment would not have done its duty towards the Public had it refused to reduce the estimate.— The i9th and 40th of the King were not intended any more than this to exempt it from the controul of Parliament—they left the Privy Purse still subject to legislative interference. Then came the Act of the 51st, which contemplated possibility that the King's indispositon might be only temporary. The wade question was, whether the House had a right to apply the fund or not—and the conJuct uniformly adopted by Parliament pravcd that it had been al .;.y; so con sidered. If he thought it w;!s the private croperty of the King he would be as little disposed to interfere with it as any man, but regarded it only as a parti cular application of public money, he concurred in the Amendment of his Right Honourable The Committee then divided, when the numbers were as follows : For the original Motion For the Amendment - Majot ity‘ 281 186 ----95 The House thro resumed, the Cusattwast reported progress, and obtained le.ve to sic again this day. !dr. STURGES BOURNE gave notice, that he would to move fQr leave to bring in the Poor Laws Amendment Bill,—Adjourned at Hatr-Esst Ora o'Cwet. • WESTMINSTER ELECTION. EIGHTH DAY. Shortly before the close of the Poi! yes!erday, the booths and the whole of the ,pace surrounding the hustings were, if possible, more thronged than ever. Placards innumerable were exhibited in front of the hustings, thongh few of them manifested any parti cular brilliancy of thought. For instance, " Lamb's Patent Coalition, vi.t.—Spafields Huut, Dr. Slop, Canning, Old 133 gs, Lot► of Wigs, Derrydowu Triangle, and the Dnctor..!---" I aunt is a mad dog, and Jones is a tin kettle de4 to his tail," &c. &c. &c. , A few minutes before four o'clock, Mr. Horimitax appeared on the hustings, accompanied by Sir FRAN Cis BURDETT and several other Gentlemen. Almost immediately after, Mr. LAME came up, accompanied by Mr. LA NIBTON, Mr. M'llos A LD, and Mr. WISH ART, and followed by HUNT, Jos Es, and Co. From the time of their appearance till the 'exhibition of the Poll-board, the uproar was most intense, and it was impossible to distinguish what particular sentiment predominated. At length the State of the Gross Poll appeared, and was as follows: Mr. Lux - - - SOPS . Mr. noissioust - - 17t.2 Major CAILTW RUM? - - 37. Mr. Homfouse then came forward, amidst /mid cheering and clapping of hands, mingled with some few exptesSions of disapprobation. lie said, they had this day gained a considerable victory over the opponents of the people of Westminster. They were SOS a-head on the day's poll, and should they have a similar triumph to-morrow, of which he had no doubt, the majority of the Coalition Candidate would be nearly destroyed. He was happy to find that the delusion Which it had unfoi tunately been in the power of tho IThigs to create, had been by degrees disci. pated. He was also happy to inform them that their opponents no longer considered him as a Tory Caa. didate, and he hal discovered that the person of rank to whom he alluded on a former day, had not calumniated him so far as to call him a Tory (Laugh. ter). —But what he did not do, others had done, and they had left no means untried to injure and defame him ; indeed they had not stopped at any thing which might serve their electioneering purposes.— They now endeavoured to make the public believe that he and his friends were levellers, but the Electors of Westmiustei• were, by this tint', perfectly aware that nothing which they uttered was to ass, but moment—(Loud for the purpose of the use.)—:- e l The Whigs themselves were once love err, and he would tell them of what kind—they would pull down all above them, to their own level, but they would not reduce themselves to the level of those below them—(Laughter.) They were a proud, overbearing ' aristocracy, and totally inimical to the rights +ma liberties of the people:—(S.ec diaapprobction.) For it th e same ti s uld point oat 0 1 i t s shelving ferereign, they cornprorn h and impo ary and ti and not hav< • par t of Niel ha were lik understood , d every cm , a reluctant , discretion • ated urg ' s hould be res oven, in th , <I upon I he was cot little object Royal High " h this wou (self decline had ~ilread: l o yal Fan ir.s the flonsc year, when a-y he subse , ma v, but they "ng thernsel , they u rt that was Iv igrity. Them t eter to preset lid with wan rising in tat from the < Rake of York, sage • would IMO, rather t 6 a discussion Ee should not I <cation, but In t'ut in the er.d .ptiety of he could &position whit ire Crown sine la severe a na s ingratitude. need for the lithe Duchy c NAN. a year "Dahl appear hiry Purse as till increasing. ?arse of 60A01 'Dually ; and all, he receii 1,0001. a year 150,0001. a r r.e to the Pri tie, as it ha loyal Hight lot much the all. paying 1 instan islet again cot race, and will tiamin an u: ire was not is proposed 174 its etpk stry man in itions as th ial.ed for; an te whole con from bei sated by the a Hr. Put. tie same time Piel, and the Pre way. Hr. PEET I to which he e lloa. Gentler bldre,s to the attention was tithe Right tai4ed the saw it had come 'wen the ail if the nature skink to t} abich he con 5 r as cone snich it wen rght of prop r. 7 )I,?.mLer 4 :7ar, hear,) L `l'it) it was Hblic princi ba sordid ac k ci*Kcnisi wi takessar y tkra which I' tereign, and Pct.!, leavi tlttstion ter • confi t'on which • 1 .4 priv ` l e ryht arguMe t *tat Was t t:le various t4 ter.tood " the Ac err earliest purse t 4 :task/11m ttri t::e A t t le the rue, ! 1 ,41 a 4.0,1 *as ther e )hum Rs. and if ~°A.glit Dor 'd title w : right b won the , ! I f 1 fl 11l