Star. — London, England, 1809-05-05 00:00:00

W PA RLIAMEIVTARr PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF I.ORDS, THURSDAY, MAY 4. Lord GARDNER took the oadt, and Isis seat. The Scots' Judicature Amendment 13t11, and the Colonial Cue toh Oaths EiU were read a second time, and committed for to-morrow. Some private Bills were brought up from the Commons It Mr. Gooch, Mr. Lygon, Sir Jacob As:ley, Sir James Grahari, and other Members, arid read a first time. AMERICA. The Earl of SELKIRK rose, in pursuance of no tice, and entered into a detail of the circumstances relative to the affair of the Chesapeak and the subse quent Trials at Halifax of sume of our Seamen fer Mutiny and Desertion, for the purpose of shewing that there was every reason to believe that the American Government must have known that British Deserters had been entered on beard the Chesapeak, and refuse ed to be delivered up, particularly as no inquiry had been instituted into the conduct of its officers upon that occasion. It was therefore, in his opinion, im proper in Ministers to make an unqualified reparation for the attack on the Chesapeak ; they ought to have, demanded satisfaction from the American Govern— ment for its conduct in refusing to deliver up Deser ters from our service ; and it was because he believed that Ministers were, upon that occasion, disposed to make improper sacrifices to the injury ofour maritime rights that he - thought it his duty to bring forward the subject. His Lordship dwelt for some time on the importance of our maritime rights, and the neces sity of maintaining them to th - 2 utmost extent ; and concluded by moving an humble Address to his Ma-' jesty, stating the opinion of the House that no ar rangement ought to be made forithe adjustment of the; differences between this country and America, with out a reparation being demanded from the American Government for the conduct of its Officers in har bouring and refusing to deliver up Deserters from the British Naval Service. The Earl of LIVERPOOL adverted to what he said on a f3rmcr occasion, when the Noble Earl moved fur papers relative to this subject, and observ• ed, that upon the same principles he now opposed the present motion, there being no ground for interfering with the Executive Government in the business of a negociation now pending. It would have been com petent for the Noble Earl to have moved an Address to his Majesty requesting a statement of the progress of the negociation ; but as the matter at present stood the Noble Earl had made a motion upon a subject rctspectinz which there was no information before the House. How did the Noble Earl know but the sa tisfact'on he wished to have been demanded of the American Government had actually been demanded ? He (Lord Liverpool) did not mean to say that it had been, because he did not mean to say any thing re specting the progress of the negociation. That neg-c-, dation was still pending, and it was impossible for the Noble Earl to know what had bee.: done so as to authorise such a motion. Seeing therefore no neces sity whatever for the motion, he must decidedly op pose it. Lord SIDMOUTH observed, that upon former occasions each House of Parliament had advised the Executive Government, in various instances, respect. ing relations with FcreignPowers. There was nothing, therefore, novel in the principle of his Noble Friend's ;notion. He admitted, however, the force of the ob jection with respect to the pendency of the negociation, and could not agree to the proposition of his Noble iend. After some explanation between the Earl of Liver pnol and Lord Viscount Sidmouth, • The Earl of SELKIRK, in reply, observed, thnt !he documents already on the table, it appeared its iF t::e point to which he had particularly adverted 1. lo.:f.une;.;l , 2cted by his Majesty's Ministers. The axtiou was put and negatives.l.—Adjourned t.G-trormw (this day). PROTEST Lti'P£P to AGAINST THE STSS:DINe; ORDTB ►LOVED MAY 2, Tit AT IN ALI DIVI.KCE BILLS IHAT ARE BROUGHT IN Ft , 'KE THE,: 111 A CLAUSE TO PREVENT Tut INTER MARRIAGE OF rat CRIMINAL PARTIES. DIS,LNI ILNT, lst, Because the Resolution which has been moved this day, with respect to Divorce Bills, appears to us fuunde I merely on a speculation that sonic good may be produced it, when no rea• ! l . sonalde hope of success has been held out, from the example of ' any other country where this has been tried. And it appears to' us, that instead of diminishing the evil complained of, the utmost that can be exp , - elect from it is, that it may tend to conceal adultery. idly, Because we consider it to be unwise in this House to ar— rogate to itself TIIE :.01.E right of le;islating on this question, and not to allow the other House pf Parliament the power of delibe rating upon 60 material an alteration in the laws of England. :idly, Because the right of making a Standing Order' upon a public question on width great diversity of opinion prevails should be exercised with great caution, and must excite j.:alou ly in the c:hir branch of the 1 e;islature. YONSONBY. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Alderman COMBS brought up the report of the Committee on the Printers' l'etition, and obtained leave to bring in al Pill tor indemnifying those Printtrs who may inadvertene:y have pub lished Books withoat affixing their names thereto. tINDE NAVIGATION. On the third reading of the Clyde Navigation 13'11, Lord A. HAMILIQNprop; sed an Amendment on the first clause, em powering the Commissioners to he the TrLstecs. After a short conversation between the Solicitor General for Scotland, the Lord Advoca:e s Lord A. Hamilton, Mr Stephen, Mr. Marryat, Mr. Glzssford, and Gen. Fergusson, the House divided on the Clause, wilen then appeared— For the Clause 31-:-Agains! it 44—Majnrity 13. I.o:eismouTii WATER-WORKS. Mr. HOME SUMNER proposed that the Report of .he Corn-1 asittee on the PortsmoOth Water-Works, be taken into conside ration this day six months ; but on the suggestion of the Speaker that it wAtid be more in usaze to oppose the second reading of theamendmects, and thin to move their second reading on that day six months, the Hon. Gentleman did not press motion, hut as Chairman of the Committee Lrcught up the Report, expressing his intention of opposing the second reading of the amendments. Sir THOMA', MILLER supvrted the second reading of the amendments, wkich were opposed by Sir Thomas Turton. After a short conversation between the SPEAKER and Mr.' HOME SUMNER, on the observation of the Standing Orders,l in the formation of the Bill, a division took place on the question of reading the amendo.ems a second time, wino there appeared, Ayes 93—Noes 3 ujorit y 90. COLON EL OGLF. Lord FOLKSTONE row for the purpose of stating to the house, that when he first moved for the papers now on the table relative to Colonel Ogle's I.evy, he had applied to the conduct of that Gentleman some strong term., amongst others, that he had been guilty of perjury, since that time from further inquiry, found that he was in error, and that no such s-rious charge was attri butable to Colonel Ogle. He therefore felt it his duty to declare to the House the error he had fallen into, particularly as Colonel Ogle had expressed a very anxious desire that such an explanation should be made, where the charge had originated. The papers were now before the House, and it would form its own opinion of tbss transaction. The Noble I ord then moved fur a copy of the letter dated 4th October, 1808 , from Mr. Merry in th e W ar efte , a$ Mr. lionvidtries, coLci.rning Col. Ogle's Levy • beam mom. Sir JOHN,NEWPQAT moved the second reading et dhl dill to prevent the Embezzlement of the Public Money. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. thought this measure required some consideration. It was a doubtful point in his mind, whether it would not be more for the benefit cabs public to leave those guilty of embezzlement subject to clvn which enabled the public to recover the money, than to subject them to criminal punishment, which would lead to no such result, He. had also a doubt whether persons of character and circum stances would be willing to incur the responsibility of public offices if liable to such serious eonsequenees, where the shades of distinction upo t the subject of embezzlement and loss might be In many cases so very slight. Sir JOHN NEWPORT wished the Bill to meet the fullest con sideration ; but expressed his surprise tohear it intimated that any honest man would be likely to shrink from the acceptance of office from any fear of the punishment which could attach only to dis honesty. After a few words from Mr. C. WYNNE, the Bill was read a second time, and committed for Wednesday—to which day the second reading of the Martinique Trade Bill was post, )ned, DOCUMENTS. Upon the motion of Mr. CANNING, who shortly referred former motions upon the stibject, the following documents were ordered to be laid before the House, namely, the copy of an ex tract of a letter from the Right Hon. J, H. Frere to Mr. Canning, dated Aranjuez, November 24, 1808, Also the copy of a letter from Mr. Frere to Mr. Canning, dat d Aranjuez, November 26. Also the substance of a communication from Sir J. Moore to General Stuart, dated Salamanca, November 29. PURII r OF ELECTICWS. Mr. CURWEN then rose to make the Motion of which he had given notice, which he conceived was a motion of the greatest importance that could possibly be submitted to the consideration of Parliament.— He was perfectly aware, that any individual who at the present moment brought forward a motion which tended to agitate the feelings of the country, did so under a very great responsibility. He felt this re sponsibility ; and yet he found himself compelled to complain of abuses. He had well weighed the mat ter, and it was his sincere opinion that there was less danger in discussing those subjects than in not dis cussing them. There could be no denying but that it was the general opinion throughout the country, that men obtained seats in that House by improper means. It therefore became the duty of the House to prove that this opinion was a mistaken one, if such were the case. But if the opinion was a true one, as he believed it was, then he thought it was their paramount duty to remove the abuse of which the country so justly complained. In fact, Minis. ters must have knoWn long before the- late disclo. sures had called for an expression of the public opi nion, that the sentiments of the people had conside rably changed respecting public men. If they had attended to the apathy and indifference in the public mind with respect to all those who are called public men, they would have observed there had been a great change of late years iw. the national feeling ; and it was their duty Co have attended tothatchange, to have examined itscauses, andifthechange had been produced by. great and palpable abuses in the Go vernment, it was their duty to have removed those abuses. He trusted the Right Honourable Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would not now say that tl. general feeling was to be attributed to the Jacobins or their conspiracies against the House of Brunswick. If he did declare such an opinion, he would pronounce a libel on the people of England. On a late most remarkable transaction, it was per fectly well known, that, out of doors, at least ninety nine nut of every hundred considered the decision of that House to be wrong. For his part, he never in his life gave a vote with more reluctance, or with less merit to himself; for he was absolutely compelled by the evidence to vote in a manner that was contrary to the decision of the House. There was one advantage, however, which the House might gain from what passed upon that occasion. The people had again begun to turn their eyes to that House, when they SAW such a number of its Members (including many of the first talents in that House) supporting in that Assembly 7,ns which coincided with the general opinion of the country. The Right Honourable Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had certainly not found in the expression of the public opinion any thing particulaily hostile to him, or very complimentary to the Hor.lurable Gentlemen who sat below himself.— (Here the Honourable Gentleman alluded to the Members of the Old Opposition). He therefore thought it would be very mistaken forti tude for that Right Honourable Gentleman to stick to what he could not justify or defend. About the conclusioo of the American War there was, perhaps, a greater force, both in abilities and landed property, opposed to the Minister, than had at any other time been opposed to any Minister; and yet at that time, whatever Ministers suggested the House adopted.— The Opposition then addressed themselves to the people, and were very successful in influencing the public opinion. They infused at that time into the minds of the people a strong desire f)r Parliamentary Reform ; but they were much to blame for thus ex- ' pressing opinions in which they were not sincere.— ThLre was therefore nothing which he now depreca ted more than the support which his Motion might receive from persons out of place, who would oppose it it they were in place. He thought nothing could be worse than thus waking tools of the people, to I I serve party purposes; and he hoped ax least, that whoever supported his motion to-night would feel themselves pledged to support it if they should come into power. He was not for yielding any thing that was not just to popular clamour ; but if the com plaints of the people were just, they ought to be at tended to, and their grievances redressed. He might agree with some persons, that it might be dangerous at the present time to take out a stone from the fabric of the Constitution ; but he thought it would be• pre sumptuous to say we would not strengthen its foun dation. When a Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Pitt) came forward first in Parliament, and agi tated the question of Reform, he made a great im pression on the House, and if he had persevered in it he must have succeeded ; but unfortunately he be came a Minister, and then all his former principles respecting reform were forgotten. He felt perfectly convinced, that if the Government at that time had yielded to the opinion pf the people, the horrors of the reign of terror, and most of the evils which this country and Europe now suffer might have been pre vented. There was a great fond of good sense in the people of this country, and they would not long be made the dupes of artifice or clamour ; and the Right Honourable Gentlemap (the Chancellor of the Eichequer) might be convinced, that if a proper at tention was paid to their reasonable complaints, they would be satisfied. As the Right Honourable Gen - • . . , tletnan had prom i se d to support a dame arhieh was; similar to the present Motion, he would be very glad indeed that he would take this Motion into his own ' hands. It could not come with more propriety from any other quarter ; And if such a measure proceeded from his Maj esty's' Ministers, it would go a great way to conciliate the affections of the people, and their respect for the Rouse of Commons. It must be recollected, that when at the commencement of Mr, Addington's A inistration, many harsh And severe measures of he preceding administration were repealed, this Act conciliated' the affections of all classes of poop e, and produced a general dl union in support of his overnment, The existence of these abuses had been expressly stated to the House on the petition of Mr. 1-{brne Tooke, and Ministers did not then attempt to deny it. It had appeared that one mercantile house was possessed of four seats, and nobody could suppose a commercial house would give .€20,000 for those seats unless for their own private advantage. Indeed, he believed he might take it as a thing generally granted, that such abuses did in fact exist.; and therefore the House was bound to vote for a motion that they should be removed. He did not bring forward this motion with any views, either hostile or friendly to any particular set of men, but merely for the general interests of the country.— As to the appointment of Judges, he conceived that in the whole course of this long reign the selection 1 had been made on the soundest principles, and that no man had been appointed to that station that wets not perfectly fit for it, He had the authority of one who had the most knowledge with respect to the Con stitution of Parliaments (we believe he alluded to Sir William Blackstone), to say, 40 It would be much better that the oath was taken by the elected than by the electors." The value of an oath administered to persons of the first education would appear, from the great change which had taken place in the decisions of controverted elections, since Mr. Grenville's Act placed the p )wer of determining them in Committe:s who decide upon oath. Before that time it was generally supposed that the decisions were not governed by 'us tice, but by party feeling. He would not talk now about the common objections 'respecting the multi plication of oaths ; but he felt convinced, that in this case it would be of the most important service, that an oath should be administered to the elected. If this were done, he believed it would-go near to cutting up this species of bribery by the roots; for he never could bring himself to believe that any Gentleman of that fortune, rank in life, and cultivated education, necessary to qualify him for a seat in that House, would deliberately take a false oath, for any advan tage he could hope from obtaining a seat in Parlia ment. He also wished to extend the bribery laws to offences committed after the election as well as before it ; for he knew that corruption had gone to such ex tent among many of the electors, that they never con sidered their right of voting as a trust for the public good, but as a private property, that they had a right to dispose of for their own advantage. Many of them who would he shocked at the idea of receiving a di rect bribe to induce them to vote, still expected some compensation after the election was over. The merit and ability of the candidates were with them mere secondary considerations, and the person they elected was, the one from whom they expected the most ad vantage. There was an anecdote, however, on the other side, which he would repeat with pleasure. An old Lady (who was known by many Members) had two seats to dispose of. A sum of £lO,OOO was of fered for them, which she declined. She WAS then offered 812,000, but her answer was, " She had never engaged in that infamous sort of traffic, and she was now too old to begin." There Were many other rea sons which made such 'a regulation more necessary at present than in former times. It had been voted by a former House, that the influence of the Crown " had increased, was increasing, and ought to be di minished." This influence had, however, continued to increase in an alarming degree since that time, by the immense increase of the army, navy, and revenue officers, which added so far to the influence of the Crown and the patronage of Ministers, that if they required being jealously watched in former times, they required much stronger guards now, or else they might completely overbear the independence of the legislative body. Besides the increasing preponde rance of the Ministers, there was another prepondera ting influence now exerted in the House of Com mons. He neither wished to depreciate commerce or commercial men, but still he thought the landed in terest should preponderate over the monied interest in the House of Commons. The landed Gentlemen were attached to the country by a common interest ; but it often happened that the speculations of com mercial men met ht be in opposition to the interest of the country. . When the news of war was received with three cheers at the Stock Exchange, it could not be forgotten that war also brought with it loins and contracts, by which commercial men might profit. He believed that men, meeting this way in bodies, often expressed sentiments which they would indivi-1 dually disavow ; and that many of those who huz- i zaed on 'Change at hearing of a war, would in pri vate '1 confess that war in itself could never be desirable for a country. If the landed interest bad its proper preponderance in that House, he thought the wish would cease of monopolizing the commerce of the i whole world, because it procured the hatred and hos tility of all nations. Landed Gentlemen probably would not, though many individual merchants might, recommend the most expensive and burdensome wars, for the sake of securing an unjust monopoly. The country might then lose its passion for indefinitely extending its possessions, and colonizing all the na tions of Europe. There were many abuses which the country might justly complain of, and if Ministers would redress them they would be doing an incalcu lable service to the country, by bringing back the con fidence and affections of the people to its public men. When they saw pensions of £3OO per annum granted to persons of the highest rank, it was enough to make people indignant. When every cottage; in the country was obliged to maintain his own children, it was too much that they should be taxed to the maintenance of the children of the rich and great. They did be lieve that these things were only done to support an infamous botongh-monger system. if this system was weakened, it by no means followed that Govern ment would be weakened. Many Members , 4 Par liament who, in the reign of James the Sec*, were obliged to bow,to the corrupt system then prevailing, became afterwards very distinguished and useinlMem . hers I the Siete, under a bettfr Qoyernment. Not withstanding all that had been said about Whigs, believed there were many now in the country w ,„ possessed the geeuine whig principles, which laid ;Le foundation of the prosperity of the country as well its independence. The great object in which thought the Gentlemen on both sides should no•ti I ) , united, was to unite the public sentiment, end ca;:, the affections of the people along with them in a il their proceedings. There were many reform s taken altogether, would not lighten materially th e berthens of the people, but would make them much more content to make those sacrifices which they were called upon to make. It would be a great satisfac. tion to them to think, that neither an impioviJent nor corrupt use was made of their money . Phis cons'dnation would at least serve to gild the pill that the country must swallow. There were taxes also which ought to be taken away ; such as the doga a; and the taxing as grooms the servants of ciamers.— The salt-tax ought also to be much lightened ; a n d this was a relief which Mr. Pitt had given the last Session that he sat in that House. Any thin which could be done to win the affections of the peo. pie, would multiply in a great degree the resources of the country, and shew to Bonaparte that it Was not merely our army and navy that he had to contend with, but the whole collective force of a united people. He thought that Ministers should not have protected one of their colleagues (Lord Castlereagh) in opp o , sitioa to the sense of the great majority of the peopl e , and that that Noble Lord would do much better in resigning a situation in which he must fad that he was not sepported by the confidence of his country. After apologizing for digressing somewhat from the object of the motion of which he had given notice, he concluded by moving « for leave to bring in a Bill for securing the independence and purity of Par. liament, by preventing the obtaining seats by i sn , proper means, and also to extend the laws respectiii bribery." Mr: HIBBERT seconded the Motion. Mr. WINDHAM said, he had no doubt but the House was willing and desirous to receive and discus: every question in a cause w!iich ought to he heard but there might be instances in which a party oug ht not to be heard at all—instances in which, a; in the Courts of Law, the plaintiff should be non-sa;te4. This was peculiarly the case with respect to I'm lia. mentary Reform, in which 19 in twenty, or perhaps 900 in a thousand, held such different, wild, and et travagant notions, that it was impossible any ninil could form a just or fair opinion of what they would be at. There were some measures which aught to be rejected in limine, to prevent the evil consequence s which might follow from giving them the slightest encouragement. Such was, in his opinion, the mea.. sure of Parliamentary Reform ; and as he looked upon the present motion to be a measure tending to that, he could not avoid opposing it in its outset. He begged the House to consider the nature of the re. medy, and the danger of a change, which he, f or hi s own part, was convinced would - create greater culties than those which were proposed to be redress. ed. It seemed to him that the particular object which his Honourable Friend meant to correct by his pro. posed Bill, was to lessen the influence of the monied interest, and to increase that of the landed interest. Before he adverted to the first or last object, he thought this motion ought to be rejected in the very first in stance. It had for many years been his opinion, that the House ought strenuously to oppose as dangerous and mad any proposal for Parliamentary Reform : every system, and every feature of which that had hitherto been produed, was, in his mind, extrava, gantly and even ludicrously wrong—both practically and philosophically wrong ; and when his Honoura ble Friend described the unanimity of the people, and inferred that it was to be obtained by this measure, he confessed he was totally at a loss to understand his meaning. They were then at issue, not in point of theory, but of fact —would that measure satisfy the people ? Mr. FULLER rose to order. (Cries tf Order! or. der ! Chair ! Chair ! ) • The SPEAKER—Having called the Right Ho nourable Gentleman to order, the Honourable Mem, ber must proceed to prove him out of order, other wise he is himself acting most disorderly. (Hear hear ! from all of the House.) Mr. FULLER—I saw some Gentlemen next to the Right Honourable Gentleman interrupting hial by whispers—and, Mr. Speaker, I disdain to do any thing wrong as much as you do. ( Universal cries of Chair ! Chair !) The SPEAKER—It will become the Honourable Member to be on his guard how he commits such an act of disorder, as to interrupt, by a call to crder, any Gentleman on his legs. (Hear ! Hear !) Mr. WINDHAM next adverted to the proposed benefit of the predominance of the landed over the monied interest. That might be very satisfactory the Reformers would think tor him who was a great landed proprietor. But that would not satisfy them, a great many of whom constitute the monied interest; neither would it satisfy the no-monied interest. (A laugh). ,No very inconsiderable class of Reformers who would not feel friendly to any proposition for landed or commercial influence, but whose views of Reform went to the hopes of keeping their carriage at the expence of both. That description would laugh at such a gratification of their expectations at the measure of the Hon. Mover they would snag their 'fingers, and perhaps hoot it. Indeed to thini that it or any such species of legislative enactment would satisfy them, ultimately satisfy them, was the most extravagant of hopes. In one view, as the be ginning of a change, and so leading to their own ob ject, they might give it a momentary approval; but he knew little of the human heart, and less of the management exerted in this pursuit, that fur a mo ment could fancy that such an alteration would sa tisfy all those now bawling for Reform, and silence all the present discontents. These discontents now attributed to the notorious Corruption of that House, as it was termed, had derived in his opinion their true origin from the love of change so lamentably prevalent since the French Revolution, and which the experience of the intervening period has rather increased than diminished. But then it was stated, that the . present measure would have the effect of putting dawn all that undue and improper influeacz Which wa; exercised at elections, amf which was now ranged under the general head of Corruption. He would be glad to know the extent of that doctrine. — Was it determined to do away the influence of FG perty For assuredly any influence arising out of been said about Whigs h ! iy now in the country vi ig principles. which laid ;Le sty of the country as well .t. great object in which mis both sides should now h, pie p along ubli with them csentimentzndicna7l were many reform s which, not lighten matei ially th e lut would make them much ,se sacrifices which they were t would be a great satisfac. tat neither an improvident tde of their money. This I st serve to gild the pill that w. There were taxes also away ; such as the dogt ax , s the servants of firrmers.— to be much lightened ; and [r. Pitt had given notice of t in that House. Any thing yin the affections of the peo. great degree the resources :o Bonaparte that it wa s au vy that he had to contend tive force of a united people. 3 should not have protected Lord Castlereagh) in oppi-, ;reat majority of the peopl e , would do much better in which he must feel that he .e confidence of his count'). ;ressing somewhat from the which he had given notice, 44 for leave to bring in a pendence and purity of Par. the obtaining seats by in. extend the laws respectiii ded the Motion. I, he had no doubt but the