Star. — London, England, 1819-07-03 00:00:00

in effect that this Borough be aisfranchisetl. not dealing Lilly by the electors of Camel was proposed that Mr. Hallett, (Who had from giving evidence before the Commit he would have been examined upon oath,) Monday be called before the House, and not upon oath, with the view of extracting From him which should inculpate the whole le Electors of the Borough of Camelford. ;Ole moved, that the order for - further con * Report of the Committee be now read. W. HARVEY said, that the Honourable Wynne) seemed not to have con- kr. Nary . ey's) nunion very correctly. lie think that Mr. Hallett , was. a Petitioner House, praying that he might be admitted to prove one of the most flagrant instances ion and bribery that had ever been dis- 'he Couusel *hi; conducted the case before ttee i undertook to prove a conspiracy for a corrupt o.ection for this Borough; and of 'the Committee shewed that - this bad out to a great degree. The facts were, were twenty-nine Electors for Camelford Borough had been frequently the object of 'ter; and that it was now the property of ,nrd whom he would not name, as those -eceived the Report must know that his name was no secret- , ( Laughter). Shortly last Eection, a meeting of live of the vas held at an Inn, wear the Borough, 1)e All-worthy," where they met a certain Divine, who expressed .to them a desire to Members to Pailiamant. To ibis desire is made no objecdon,. but annexed only ioa, namely. that a large Ism of money deposited for certain purposes, mentioned IS at the meetbig. With this condition, :d.that the Reverend Divine did not, or ,omply. The five Electors, however, aid ton their design, . Accordingly they met \other Inn, e;dled the u Five Lanes," near where a letter, .signed James Harvey, offering sir thousand pounds for pro• return •of •two Members for the Bo- be distributed among any fifteen Electors. posal nas agreed to. The reply to the :h contained An acceptance of the propo ,slressed to a Mr. Sibley, the partner of Mr. was proved before the Committee, that .t,Mad held up .C6OOO before his partner td said-- 6, Sibley, do you think the Camel- :ors will bite at this ?"- As a security for it appeared that the half notes of the £6OOO sited at Camelford. In the end, however, !racy failed, and the election was lost. On ever it did not appear thtt i the hilf notes delivered back : for it was proved that Sibley had said—" What damned rogues ielford Electors. are—for, do you know, I get back the half notes from them without )me compromise." After all this, Ise did tow the House could forbear from eplling nt before them, considering that be bad abr to avoid giving evidence before the Com-. had also appeared before the Committee that, two sets of candidates, both on the Mini-, ;rest. But as they found, they could not all, hey agreed to settle their claims by the taste of drawing tickets out of a tea pot—(laughter) is way. the lot-had fallen on Mr. Stewart an 4 tt ; the two unsuccessful candidates Leis* lanmer and Mr. Collett. There was no m al for abolishing the abuses and corruption; -ough system, as by taking each particular :h came before the House, and punishing appeared guilty. The arguments of the tble Baronet (Sir F. Burdett) yesterday, by contended that it was injustice to inflict pu. in individual eases when corruptions of the td were so general, were erroneous. It was tended by an Honourable Member (Nlt. M. )r) that it was hard to punish the whole 29 For the mideeds of only five of them. But Ino force in this. It was no object with him borough belonged to a Noble Lord of mi politics ; he would be for acting in the ty whether the politics of the proprietor were aor ministerial—(Hear, hear.) It seemed tat by such a system as that which prevailed 'rough there were two Houses of Lords, and Peerage was represented in both Reuses— ran) He therefore thought the. House ought, ttly with its dignity, to prosecute this matter. tASTLEREAGH said, the Hon. Member to think he was adverse to further proceed this case. But that was not the fact. He agreed with the proposal of the Honourable , Mr. Wynn.—(Ficar, hear.) —All that be vas, that the House might be saved from an ary debate this night. J.W. HARVEY protested that he never meant personally to the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) he said generally as to Ministerial politics. . CASTLEREAGH said, he did not under te Honourable Member as having alluded to •sonally in what he now mentioned. He had -eferred to the general course of argument of ,ourable Gentleman. 'HIM ROSE thought the House ought to to the Report immediately, and that it would ;t to call before them Mr. Hallett. BATHURST could not agree to the motion, es a connected proof of agency was placed ..'.:em by their Committee, they should not to procure further evidence, nor to any in ion for this purpose. By the same rule, all House had done in the cases of Penryn and .ple was irregular. As to the objection, that use would be calling upon an individual to idence as to acts of criminality in which he F was involved, that might be a good reason )viding an indemnity to the Witness placed in ircumstances, bat it was no reason why the should refuse to proceed in an investigation, ti?uld shut its eyes to abuses which were appa , the whole world besides—(hear, hear). As to he effect of the evidence might be, it would be for the House to decide when it was in pos- of it. Those who thought that there was , rit ground of corruption made out against this it to justify further inquiry, must agree to the of the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Wynn). C. BURRELL thought the House ought to go ideate to the utmost. BROUGHAM hoped his Honourable Friend I (Mr. Taylor) would agroe to withdraw his opposition till further inquiry; and proposed the attendance of John Herriot at the Bar to-morrow, as the further consideration of the Grampound Election would oc cupy the attention of the House on Monday. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR consented to withdraw his opposition to the Motion. Mr. WYNN, akhough it was unusual to enter on any business which would extend their sitting to any considerable length on a Saturday, had no objection to accommodate those interested to-morrow. Mr. I3RAGGE BATHURST objected to the fur ther progress to-morrow. It had always been under stood that their sittin gs on S atur d ay were mere l y to advance a stage or two in Private Bills, and not for the purpose of entering into long discussions. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN observed, that a great many of the Members, after the severe dutyof the week, were in the habit of leaving town on Sa turday, he was therefore of opinion, that Monday would be preferable. Mr. BROUGHAMpersisted.in his proposition for to-morrow. Mr. CALCRAFT stated, that his opinion these would be little or no cha nce o f a d vanc i ng f art h er on Monday, as the Grampound Election would have the priority ; and as on Tuesday, he was given to under stand, there would be an adjournment of the Honse, to afford time to the Lords to get through the re mainder of their business previously to the Proroga tion of Parliament, his Hon. and Learned Friend was obliged to propose to-morrow, or to lose any further opportunity this Sessions. The adjournment would therefore certainly take place, as there were no more taxes likely to be imposed upon the people during the present Session. Hut notwithstanding this usual courtesy to the other House, he saw no reason why the Commons should not sit on important business, if necessary, till the very day of Prorogation. If not able to pursue their investigation either on Monday or Tuesday, Parliament ought to give those interes ted in the result, further time to proceed to a conclu sion. The Representative part of the Constitution was qieeply connected in the decision : and the suspension of such privileges was undoubtedly a circumstance of the very first importance. Mr. BR AGGE BATHURST stated, that the ques tion entirely depended upon whether the House would or would not sit beyond Tuesday. If not, it was obvious that the House could not resume' any busi ness after their adjournment, as their next meeting would merely be for the purpose of hearing the Royal Speech, and witnessing the Prorogation. Mr.CALCR A FT wished that some other arrange ment could be formed, so as to afford them an op• portunity of proceeding further in the examination of the witnesses. • Mr. LUSHINGTON assured the House, that with regard to the adjournment on Tuesday, Gentlemen might remain quite easy on that point, as there was no authority whatever for such an assertion. After some observations from Mr. WILBERFORCE, Mr. Alderman Wool), and Mr. C. Witting, it was agreed that the further consideration of the Report on the Camelford Election should be resumed on Monday ; and a question was put and carried to that effect. It was also, on motion, ordered, that the SPEAKER do not issue his warfant for a new Writ for Camelford before Monday next. Mr. D. W. HARVEY then moved, that William Hallett be ordered to attend on Monday.—Ordered. The Honourable Member afterwards moved, that James Harvey be ordered also to attend on Monday. This was a very important witness. He wrote the memorable letter to the conspirators, giving them in structions how to act; and they answered that they would attend to the contents of the letter—accord ingly, from the contents of that letter, the witness Harvey could communicate to them, who the two Gentlemen were that were introduced to the Elec tors offering them the sum of £6,000. They might perhaps trace this transaction to the very Members themselves. If the further examination of the evi dence were confined to Hallett, they would very likely lose the interesting communication of Harvey; the Honourable Member therefore strongly urged his appearance. Mr. BRAGGE BATHURST said, that the ques tion was not now respecting the disfranchisement of the Borough, but merely whether or not a particular evidence should be ordered for the next meeting. The Honourable Member had always maintained, and now repeated his assertion, that no writ ought to issue till the House was fully satisfied. But as it would be necessary to postpone the final consideration till nett Session of Parliament, he saw no reason for so parti cularly urging the evidence. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN affirmed, that there was already a sufficiency of proof before the House to justify their withholding the issue of the writ. Mr. C. WYNN was of opinion that some farther progress might be made prior to the adjournment for the Session. Mr. WILBERFORCE proposed that James Har vey should 'attend on Wednesday instead of Tues day.—Ordered. ' It was also ordered that the Rev. John Mason do attend on Wednesday next. NEW souTrt Mr. GOULBURN moved, that the House should resolve itself into a Committee on the New South . Wales Duties Bill—that is, a Bill of Indemnity in fa vour of Governor M'Quarrie and others, concerned in levying local taxes, towards the maintenance of the Government, without the authority of Parliament. Mr. BENNETT condemned the Act, as there was no necessity for it. He recommended its postponement till next Session, on or before which they would be furnished with better information. The Committee could then be received in a more satisfactory manner. There was nothing more prejudicial to the interests of the Government at home, than to allow the Gover nor and his dependents - to impose arbi wa trary taxes on the people of New South Wales. It s a very ob noxious measure, and deserved the reprobation of Parliament. It was astonishing that his Majesty's Government not only were about to sanction the con tinuance of such an odious custom, but to obtain an indemnity for those guilty of such a violation of our Constitutional principles, precluding all taxes without an Act of Parliament—(Hear, hear, hear.) The Governor not only imposed a duty upon all shipping, but a duty upon the tonnage also, equal to t:l5, upon a ship of 500 tons burden. He also imposed a kind of poll-tax upon, all persons leaving the Colony, at the rate of 2s. 6d. a head. Mr. Campbell, the Secretary to the •Governor, was the collector of this last duty; the latter put Is. 6cl. into his own pocket, and who got the other shilling he could not tell, although rumour gave scope to con jecture. The Honourable Member could not con ceive how Governor M , Quarrie had autlioriped such arbitrary and obnoxious measures. Mr. FORBES supported the Bill, and vindicated the character of Governor M'Quarrie. With regard to what had been odiously termed a poll tax, the Honourable Gentleman ought to have recollected, that no person could leave this country for the Con tinent without incurring a kind of poll -tax, that is, a sum of money for his pass. In this view the Go vernor was therefore warranted. A certain Gentle- man, then in his eye, had thrown out insinuations against Governor M'Quarrie, for which he had no well-grounded authority. Mr. WILBERFORCE said, with some warmth, that, by the rules of Parliament, no Geutlemun Was authorized to allude to what had been mentioned on any former debate. What he (Nis; Wilberforce) had stated at the time alluded to he could not perfectly recollect; but, referring to the usage of Parliament, he thought himself unfairly dealt with by the ani madversions of the Hon. Member—(Hear, hear.) Mr. BROGDEN, as Chairman of the Committee, assured the Hon. Member (Air. Forbes) that any al lusion to a former debate was directly contrary to the established rules of Parliament. Mr. FORBES expressed himself obliged hi the in• rmation of the last Honourable Member. If he had ;been misled by the heat of the moment, it arose from his• anxiety for the character of Its much•esteemed !fr►end (Governor M'Quan•ie). With regard to the lquestion more immediately before the House, he ['thought the duties notonly too heavy on the exports, but very impolitic also. As certain duties had been laid on by his Majesty's Government, Governor Mac quarrie had thought himself authorized to levy more. [ Some Gentlemen had amused themselves with con jectures on the immense Fortune supposed to have been acquired by Governor M'Quarrie. He (Mr. Forbes) could assure the House, confirmed by the Governor's own letter t that, instead of having ac quired a fortune, on his return to this country he would not be one sixpence richer than when he left it (Hear, hear.) That it was certainly true, he (Mr. Forbes) had been solicited to purchase a small estate for him in Scotland, at a place for which he hap pened to have a great partiality, but that the Gover nor had hitherto never been able to repay him the loan, amounting to £5,000. Mr. C. WYNN submitted to the Committee, whe ther or not the Honourable Member was not tres passing on their time and patience ? It was totally unparliamentary for the Committee or the House to listen to the contradictions of every idle story or silly report out of doors--(hear, hear). Mr. BROGDEN hoped the Honourable Member (Mr. Forbes) would confine himself to the subject of discussion, without attempting to introduce estrane- OM 'natter. Mr. FORBES thought it necessary to vindicate the character and conduct of Governor M'Quarrie, whose fortune was so inconsiderable, that he had not yet been enabled to return him his loan of £5OOO. Mr. WILBERFORCE objected in some degree to giving such unlimited power to Governor M4Quarrie. As he hag been constantly accustomed to a-military life, he might perhaps be , ill suited for the civil de- Mr. GOULBURN stated, that Governor Mignarriti had not exceeded the powers granted to his prede-i 'eessors in office. He differed from the last Hon., Member, as the Governor's general deportment was very well calculated for both the Civil and Military Departments. But the question was, whether they Would consent to pass the present Bill, which went to indemnify Governor M'Quarrie and others for le vying money in New South Wales without the audio tity of Parliament ? Although the Governor was' warranted by precedent, he not doing more than what had been done before, yet Government had deemed it expedient to press a Bill of Indemnity for this irregular or illegal proceeding. It had been long ago submitted to the Crown Lawyers, - who had at last advised the legalizing those duties which be- fore had been illegal. If the Governor, and thosts, concerned with him in the collection of the duties, + were not protected by a Bill of Indemnity, they would all remain exposed to actions or prosecutions. If the Governor has been guilty of a violation of his public duty—which he (Mr. Goulburn) was convinced he had not—bring him to trial and punish him. But let him not be exposed to malicious prosecutions Or actions afterwards, for what Government by no means condemned, however irregular the proceedings. The duties were not imposed wantonly on the people ef the Colony, but as acts of policy, and to prevent the improper introduction of certain obnoxious articles. The Honourable Member (Mr. Bennett) approved of a Tax on Spirits, provided it was authorized by Par liament. The Bill now submitted to their considera tion would gratify the Honourable Member's wishes. The Honourable Member (Mr.Goulburn) was against postponing the Bill till near Session, as recommended by the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Bennett). The intentions of Government on the subject had been announced soon after the meeting of Parliament.— And the Honourable Member again repeated, that GOvernor M'Quarrie had done no more by the im position ,of these Duties than to have followed the example of his predecessors. • Mr. C. WYNN was not satisfied with the Mere au thority of alt Under Secretary of State for the Bill now proposed. He recommended its postponement till next Session. But he doubted whether or not they could pass such a measure without going into a Committee of Supply. Mr. ROINSON was enabled to remove the doubt by assuring the Honourable Gentleman and he Corn ihittee, that Bills of Colonial Revenue had often been pissed without the formality of a Committee of Supply, and that he himself (Mr. Robinson) 4ad in isoduced and been the means of sanctioning such a Mode, which he knew was strictly parliamentary. • Mr BROGDEN explained the usage of Parlia ment on such occasions, confirming the assertions ,of the lust Honourable Member. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER coy roborated what had bten advanced respecting the practice of Parliament., A Bill relating to Colonial Revenue, or a Bill of Local Colonial Regulation, might originate without a Committee of Supply ; but a Bill for National Revenue could not, Mr. sii*AtitUßSt hop e d that no o s testrubtioa would be given to the Bill, as there was no chute of abuse; nut only a :echnical *rant of foils': The CalarititiAtt reported progress, and btritioid leave to sit again to-morrow. efface's 'email) mt. Lord JOCELYN, in proposing that the Itotrsi should agree to the amendments which the House of Lords had made in this Bill, took dccaiiiaii, • to eulo gise the Committee above ttaire, for the patience ed attention with which they had inqutred into the :claims of these people upon the House. It *as not only the immediate object, who were interested, hilt 'the widows and orphans of the soldihs, and man). other poor people wefe concerned in the result. He said the House had been already so fully in possession cif all the fact., that he deemed it-unnecessary to gd into°them, aad would therefore only move that these amendthents he read a second time. ' Mr. CANNING .vas anxious to call the attention of the House to the immediate object before them.--a /t was, whether or not they would agree to di: Amendments of the Lords, which totally subverted the principles of the Bill, or reject the Amend= ments as a gross misconstruction of the meaning Of the House of Commons. Some years ago, Certain individuals in India were in the usage of advancing loans to the Native Princes at enormous premiums. Such a destructive system came under the cognizance olthe Government at home and the Government in India, and both united in reprobating such practices of extortion. An Act'had been passed, therefUre, to prevent such loans, as highly detrimental to the policy and power of our Government in India:a- , The Act had been widely promulgated, and was soon well known in India, that there was hardly any individual in the monied or mercantile line'who were not fully aware of its contents and consequences. In defiance, however, of this Act of policy and justice * certain individdals had so violated its provision as to continue to advance monies to the Native Princes; Those individuals bad admitted that they knew such a law had been passed but they excused themselvet from the penalties by pretending that they were not acquainted with its particular contents. The gi-ounds (were threefold—lst. The Act had been sufficiently promulgated, consequently that they might be said to remain ignorant of its letter and spirit-2dlY, that the advances made were to enable the Native Princes to make good their engagements with the British Government—Silly, that these advances had been made in concurrence with the approbation of the Government of Madras. All these allegations the Right lion. Member denied. No person could ra n i main ignorant of the nature of the Bill. The very title sufficiently indicated its contents—" A .Bill to prevent British Subjects from advancing Loans to the Native Princes;' &c. One clause expressed— " Nest to advance Loans to the Native Princes with out the approbation of . the Governor and Directors at home, or the Governor-General in India," am-- From these premises, it was evident, that the pretext of ignorance was fallacious in the extreme. But to return to the amendments of their Lordships. He confessed his astonishment on coming to the House this day to find, that the other House had totally sub-, vented and destroyed the meaning, letter, and spirit of the Act,•by the improper and absurd Amendments _which the had made. They had very unaccoun; tably expunied all the allegations on which the Bill was founded. They bad struck out every condition which the Act professed. Perhaps the Lords, in the true spirit of revenge for receiving Bills from the Commons at the close of the Session, and conse4 quently engrossing somewhat of their time, bad per verted the chief meaning and contents of the Act, by producing amendments with negatives instead of affirmatives, and affirmatives instead of negatives; thus attempting to stultify the House—(Hear,),—. For these reasons, the Right Hon. Member moved— That the Amendments of the Lords be taken into consideration this day three months. Mr. WARREN contended that the amendment in troduced by the Lords did not alter any of the enacts ments of the Bill. Mr. CANNING expressed his readiness to witha draw his motion, provided the House would disagree with the Lords' amendment, and give the Bill ano ther chance, by leaving it to their Lordships to decide whether they would agree to the measure, With the omission of their own amendment. After a few words from Mr. J. Statiw, Mr. CAN=' NINO, Mr. S. BOURN; Mr. WAREINN, Mr. WIr;I4N; and Mr. LUSHINGTON, Lord JOCELYN expressed his intention of dividing the House on his motion. The House then divided.—For agreeing to the Lords' Amendment, 45 ; for reading the Bill this day three months, 16; majority in favour of the Bill, 294 MR. °WEN'S PLAN. Sir WILLIAM DE CRESPIGNY wished that Parliament, before its separation, had taken into con sideration the state of the Poor, for the purpose of alleviating their distress, if possible. The Session was now nearly over, and nothing effectual had been done to promote their welfare, or to alleviate their sufferings. When he gave notice of his present mo tion, he intended to have brought Mr. Owen's Scheme for the Relief of the Poor tinder the consideration of IParliament ; but as the Session was drawing so nearly to a close, he begged to withdraw his notice till next Session, when he pledged himself to renew it. He would say nothing now about the practicability or the advantages of the Plan itself. Mi. J. W. WARD said, that as the notice had been withdrawn, and as it would now be informal to enter into any consideration of the Plan, he would not have risen, had it not been to protest against the insertion of his own name and of that of a Right Honourable Friend of his (Mr. Sturges Bourne) into the list of the Committee on Mr. Owen's Plan. If such an honour was cbnferred upon them from any supposed approbation of the Plan itself, he must de. elate that he and his Right. Hon. Friend were to. tally undeserving of it. It was not incumbent 640 a. to state now his opinion of that Plan, but he hibUnti hesitation in giving his - opinion concerning the want of courtesy in placing his name, without consulting him, and contrary to his wish, in a list intended t 6 further the objects of. that plan. Be regarded the scheme itself as entirely unworthy of the coaskiera- tion of the House. Here the Honourable Gentleman was called to or der by Sir WittiAist Dt CanbrlGNY, who thought it informal that the Honourable Ctatlenian should en- rroposed in Phis was n It.rd. It w absconded tee, where !.houlci on 1 e.iarnined n evidence frg body of the Ile therefor :tiering the Mr. D. VI Gentleman s:rued his (1 !•-emecl :to before the F. the Bar t ‘: . corruptio Th he Commit , rocurirg a Report I ?0:1 made !:.tt there ss tl:is Bo ale or haat Noble Lo -'.70 had ret ardship's r the I...:ctors %‘• ailed 42:11"!1 tWJ braild be d whispets t appeared ould net cc ahaadu LF;ain at am :amen ord, :as read, trim the capit, to L •fhi , I , ror tthic z!, ialle;. It •:.r. Bet and .Itt Electc ;.e money i . deposi coaspin his, howev :ad been d I ur S . :c•:e Cam not s Liking sor .ot see ho Hallett conded to ittee. It h acre were term inter ome in, th mode of rd in this ;dr. Collett Colonel Its so effectual of the bore case whict those who Houourab: which he c nithir.ent i tame kind row conte A. Taylor riect ors fa there was that this t nisterial same way apposition to him the is this loot tint the P Harr, het oasistent Lord • emed to aRs in t lember, v::-bed w :sir. D.' o adude a what t Lord ( 5..:•nd the pers4 •:crzly rc Honc Ir. p; rc:ced .7"re t - .at tae asta; !LI CVi, . ^ lself it prov -a: 1 cir ••• - ."e s .t a m, • cat to t aat tit a'7icien :•.rougl • otion C z'o evil 'air. I '1 ~, I. i . I , 1 - I t i ' , r ~ 1 i i!, j i'l 1 . , i t• , 1 t ) 1 / ' 1 1 : I ' • i I i ' 1 . t , 4 1 I ' II 11 1 . 1 ' I : I I ` * A ' I , 1 . i , . i • 1 1 1 • , 1 I ~~ ►. AL