Star. — London, England, 1819-01-29 00:00:00

I r PARLrAMENTs4R r i 1 V ., tt i. ;i . 1 ~ ! i ~ ..., 1 1 . ~., . . r, i i ~ti i i y R ,.~~• • • HOUSE Ott WADS, lANTIAIti id. ~ • His Royal Highness . the Duke or aunti, licit VNat Botret.svoook the oaths and their sepia. Several Orders were made with rupee" to the hoking afar tain Appeal Causes, and one or two Beat! Pe were kart dues., and read the Ant time. Thu Leas Cater Junks of the COurt of King's Bench en tered the House at one of the Bar doors, and advancing to the table, laid a Writ of Error frail his Court apes the table, and immediately retired. Lord HOLLAND inquired of Noble Lords on Ow IN& stern) Bench , when it was probable those Treaties referred to in the Royal Speech would be communicated to the Houses The Earl of LIVERPOOL observed, the delay add& had taken plate was princiPolly to be attributed to the indisp osition of a Noble Poked, but he thought that there was little doubt of their being presented on Tuesday next. The Duke of MONTROSE (as Master of the Horse) re =Royal Highwees the Prince Regent's Anneer tb their ' recent Adios. It was coughed is the usual tenth and gestkelarly thanked their Lordships for their wwessions of austeeen end coadoleuee on the lamented deals, of her late most oreqllest Majesty the Queen; and concluded 'by mark% the Mist, that no co-operatics' should be %imolai oil his Royal Higlemes part towards effectuatiag these deskabie objects ad *mud to In the Royal Speech, and In their Lordship' Address. CAIN 07. liii MAJESTr. The Zarl of fiIIIAFTRSBURY presented the Report of the Rill for .providins for the airs of his Majesty's sacred person ;• on which occasion one or two provisions wets added, on the 'tuition oT the fart of I.4vitahOot, for the purpose of (amiss ". the precise objects for which the 13111 was cal. culateut WU s' - - ." traktil e $ or dered that the Bill, so ainensiad, s tints teatornsw.—Adjourked. HOUSE OF COMMONS. • ortm•ti Memberi, who had not previously been sworn, took the oaths. • Sir W. GUISE presented a Petition trum the Inhabitants of Ate Town of Cheltenham. praying - for leave to bring in a Bin to Light their Town with Gas.—Ordered to be referred te a Committee. • Mr. STUART WORTLEY presented a Petition from the Debtors in the Castle of York, praying for rellef.-t-The Petition was read, and ordered to lie on the table. The Wegtmlinter Hustings Bill was read a second time, and couunktedrfor to-morrow. Mr. W. SvllTif moved for an Account of all Berms in Aiti.issued from I:ebroary I to December 11, 1818, specifying Cie amount they were intended to recover, and the grounds on whizh.they had inued.-.-Ordered. PRIVILEGES OF TUB ROUSE. • Sir J. MACKISITOSH held In his hand a Peti tion relative to a matter . referred to on the preceding dsy to the Committee of Privileges, which he be lieved was about. to mak* a Report thereon. The PecitiQ.l was that of four persons, merchants of Hull, i'vhe)4ls4ged, in opposition to the request of Mr. Amon, that they held him iu custody under an esbcution, for a debt of 1,0001. His case, they sub tnitted, wa, different . from that which had been mentiened u siaular, atur they prayed (but, he was *ware, consistently with the usages of the House, this could not be attended to), that they might be heard by Counsel in support of their Petition at the Bar of that Rouse. Another pr4yer they urged 'which might "be taken into consideration, that the House woulal give them such relief as it should be of opinion they were entitled to. The Petition was then read. It set forth the tact stated by the Ho nouraYe and Learned Gentleman, and represented the,person petitiOned against to be ineligible to sit in ntilistment, and alledged that in the year 1725, under - similar circumstances, a writ had been-order ed to assne tor 'a new eicanton. - - The SPEAKER s:tid. independent 'oft4e-irregu laritjes to be observed in the substance 'Willie Peti tion, great ignoritice of the i)rins of the House was evinced by the Pe:itioners, ass Petition was sign ed by: a Axirson calling himself Agent to the Peti tioner{, ai4not by the Petitioners themselves. SIT:BANKES suggested that, under such circum itanceS-it night be desirable that the Petition should lnlyttidrawn.—The Petition was then withdrawn. LiCENSES. Mr. BENNETT presented a Petition from a per. Sou of the name of W. Brown, vomplaining of the license - having been taken away from his house, in Bristol or its nei ,, hbourhood, which had been a li censed house for forty years, by a certaiu Dlagistrate, while several licenses were granted to new houses. The Honourable Gentleman said, he knew nothing of the individual, but a Petition had been signed in his favour by the Churchwarden and Overseers of his Parish, and by a great number of the most re. spectable inhabitants. Mr. -- PROTHEROE felt it his duty to state, that from what he knew of the worthy Magistrate com plained of, he could assert him to be incapable of taking such a-step from improper, motives. Mr. H. DAVIS spoke to the same effect. Mr. BATHURST knew nothing of the party from whom the Petition came, but thought the Courts of Law were open to him ; and, therefore, unless there was something eery extraordinary in the case, he ought not to come to that House in the resent in stance, to get them to exercise the functions of an ordinary Court of Justice. Mr. BENNETT said, unless corrupt conduct - on the part of the Magistrates could be established by le gal _proof, the Courts of Justice shut their ears to an appliPailon of this sort; as they laid is dowirm • that a Magistrate had the power of arbitrarily taking a license away without assigning any nation for his conduct, and therefore unless a corrupt motive were proved, the Court would do nothing. The property affected by the conduct of the Licoususg - Magistrates was placed in a situation different from that of any ether property in the country. The Magistrates might act in the most unjust, arbitrary, and illegal manner, yet their conduct might be so guarded that no legal proof could be brought against them. H e therefore thought that it was to that House that an aggrieved person ought to appeal . If the House thought the present Petitioner ought to seek his re medy in a Court of Law, he must do so, but it was his resolution shortly to bring this great question (for great it was) fully under their consideration. Mr. COURTNEY hoped the Petition would be withdrawn. If the conduct of the Magistrates ge nerally were so bad as to become a matter of public' concern, then the subject would be properly brought before that House ; but he could see nothing of the kind on the present occasion, and the case seemed so Et to be brought before a Court of Law, - that he thought it would be wisdom to withdraw the Petition. 11 9 4-. HUME thought the House and , the . country were much obliged to the HonourableGentlemanfor the mass of evidence of abuses of this kind which he had been the means pf bringing to light. On reading that evidence he thought it impossible to doubt that great abuses and it was to be feared did Atilt -Heyboped , , the • HOW wOlid hot shut their door against individuals who Geld ob i rein no redtest in the tommon Coorts of Law. The Honourab}e Gatemen who had spoken to the die.' teeter of the Indiridual actinpliitwd of had doubtless spoken the truth, yet, in the particular instance allu ded to, the grossest abuse might* have been commit ted. He hoped the Petition would not be rejected.. f' Mr. BENNETT contented to withdrieir the Peti tion, and withdrew it accordingly. PRIVILgGE. • Mr. C. W. WYNNE presented the Report of the Committee of Privileges, on the Letters of Robert Christie Burton. The Report was then read.—lt set forth, that the Committee had found Mr. Burton to be a MewlsEr' of that House, and in the custody of the Warden of the Fleet Prison.—On the whole master, they bad finally resolved that Mr. Burton was entitled to Pri. vilege of Parliirnent. Mr: WYNNE said, he should have contented him. self with • laytng before the House the Resolution which had been come to without observation, but for the Petition which had been resented that day. He thought it right to state, that he could see nq rea l . sonable difference between the situation of a Mem ? I bey of that House who was detained in custody uny der an execution, and that of a- Member who vvii4 confined on a mesne process. The principle oh while. Il...ll.aactuait esorsa4 •4 to pither. plied equally to both. The duty of at:ten/100Pa was considered the highest duty that could be imposed on any one, and an individual was not to be prevented fr,om performing his public duty by any claims that private individuals might have on' him. In 1676, Mr. Brown, who had been taken in execution. was liberated vu this principle, as was Mt. Asgill; in 1807. In the latter case the House was little operated upon by any inclination to favour the individual, as, on his taking his seat, one of the first things they did was to expel him. Considering Mr. Burton to be entitled to the Privilege of Parlia ment, he now moved, that the Resolution of the Committee should be agreed to. The Motion u-as carried, as was one Which imme diately followed, for an order for his discharge from the custody of the Warden of the Fleet Prison. DISTRIBUTORS OF STAXPS. Mr. MACDONALD moved, that there should be laid before the house an account of the number of the Distributors of Stamps, and of the Lists to which they were appointed. together with a statement of all profits or entoltiment•; enjoyed by each respec tively, from she sth of January, 1818, to the sth of January, WI 9 ; with an accpunt of the balances left in their hands up to the month of October, the security given, and the arrears yet to be received so fat as the same could be made out.—Ordered. Ile then moved for similar Returns relating to the Receivers-General in England and Scotland fig the same period.—Ordered. BANK NOTE*. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH, as he understood his Motion would not be opposed, should at once submit it to the House, if be were not anxious to take the earliest opportunity of making a few remarks on the Report of the Commission appointed to inquire 'lnto the postibility of diminishing the fiteilities for forging Bank antes. These observations he had in tended to make on the preceding day, but the Mem-. bee for Exeter not being then in his place, he had' thought it right to defer them till he should be pre sent. The inquiry which had taken place, he might be allowed to say in a new Parliament, had originat ed in a motion made by him (Sir J. Mackintosh) in the last Parliament, not in the hope of making for gery impossible, but with the more humble and ra tional view of making it more difficult. The House would do him the justice to remember, that he had stated from the commencement that one of two ad- vantages might be expected—either they would dis cover the means of making forgeries more difficult, or they would find that this runs impossible, and shew the House that the only safe course was to re turn to that state in which the crime of forgery could hardly be said to have existed—to cash payments. Now he clearly saw which of the two results bad been obtained ; and though, from the beginning, he had expected something of the kind, yet he did not expect that his opinions would have received such a sanction as they had found in the Report now on the table of the House. He did not expect this from that Commission, which he must ever respect, as he knew it had comprehended men of great science and pro fOund knowledge, and men of the highest talents and respectability . He could not have been so san guine as to expect that the Report of such a llbard would so far have confirmed the impression he had previously had on his mind, that there was little or no prospect that the crime of forgery could be dimi nished, or the executions, and the nusery of which it was the parent, prevented, but by a return to cash payments. This consideration must make a retutn to cash payments absolutely necessary in the view of 'every 'man who resealed abilities amen • morals of the people as the most important ob)seis that could occupy the attention of the Legisladie. After these few general observations, he would new offer some remarks, more particularly applicable tai the language of the Report. Speaking in the pre sence of those who were then in the House, he should speak with more satisfaction to himself, as he knew if he stated any thing erroneously he should imme diately be corrected, and was thus relieved from the fear of creating a false impression. If he understood the Report, it represented about 200 projects to have been laid before the Bank, all of width- had bass properly rejected. Of all those seen by the Commie. ston only nine deserved consideration. Them ewe twelve others that deserved praise, but • only telio merited the greater praise of consideration, And . these nine, but one was thought worthy of an expo riment. If he rightly understood th e Ltm ew the Report, the other eight were not c the reach of easy imitaaoa. Thalloese would SWF in mind, that of all the projects bitinght fOrwardo 90 years, not one had been considered to plaid well, and of thew lately before t h e Cannthdalilero Only one was drought to merit an experlisent. cautious manner in which to their emit) they spoke of this one, estrevielydill dent of its success. They almost exhausted the thli language in search of expressions calculated to qualify Lope and repress expectation.. mamma it, not fee immediate eiecution, but in order that it may be seen if it cannot be so improved os to diminish the faaities for forging Bank notes. This plan then being in the course of improvement, the Commissioners hope may be attended with some success. But at the same time, in another part of their Report, they say that any improvement made is likely to be greatly opposed by the carelessness of the Public. This he had always considered a settled point, as one of the things to be provided against.— Was it to be expected that the English character eonld now be changed, improved, and reformed ? To de. goad, 'the Bank Note must have such marks as would put a man on his guard. The Commis sioners were aware of this, and far from feeling con fident that that which they recommend will do any gd, it is in effect almost stated, that to fi nd a re m good it is in effect almost stated, that to find a re medy for the evil was impossible, as that carelessness complained of was that which first of all made the invention of money necessaty, and was that which was not to *eradicated. The two last sentences of the Report seemed to damp and extinguish the little hope which the previous part might have excited.— He could not believe that any Member of that House would be willing to commit the property and lives of the whole people of England to the success of an untried experiment. After the failure of so many plans, which, to their inventors, and to many to whom they were shewn; seemed as likely to defy imitation as that which had the recommendation of tfio Board; ho must consider the hope of Improving Bank Xotes so far as to prevent forgery, so slender, qis to be equivalent to nothing. It almost came to this, that the Report had shewn, that there was but one mode by which those forgeries, and executions, and horrors now so generally deplored, could be avoided. It was for the House to determine whether that one mode should be resorted to ; whether the crime now become so alarming should be terminated or prolonged. He would put the supposed advas rage (for it was but a supposed advantage) of an in crease of commerce from an extensite paper circu lation in one scale ; and he would put the crimes and executions which were the consequences of persever ranee in such a system in the other, and leave the House to say which ought to predominate. The last. Parliament had fatally determined in favour of the paper system. In the year 1816 the question came before them. A return to cash payments might then have been effected with comparative ease. They de cidcd against, and fifty capital executions for forgery had followed in the three years that intervened be tween that period and the present. Parliament then listened to the voice of the Minister, and the fatal confidence which that House then reposed in the Government was felt at this moment. When the nation bad borne the worst part of the shock atten dant on a return to cash payments, which it had sus tained from the reduction of the circulating medium in 1813—when the great difficulty was got over— when they were in sight of land, then all the sacrifices that had been made were rendered nugatory ; because Ministers had not the courage to take one wise step and go forwards, instead of plunging us back into all those horrors, to which they would fain confide the nation again. After what the country had known, and after that Report had beer. made, which now lay on their table, he called upon the House to insist on a resumption of cash payments, unless Miniu chewed the grounds of their policy, and, by a fdll and impartial inquiry into all the circumstances con eiected with the continuance of the Bank Restriction Act, could establish the wisdom and the expediency of the measure which they purposed to bring forward. lie concluded by moving an humble Address to the .Prince Regent, raving his Royal Highness to order that these should be laid before the thuse, a return of the number of persons prosecuted by the Bank of England for forging Bank Notes. and for knowingly uttering, of having in their possession, forged notes, from the 10th April, 1818, to Stith January, 1819; distinguishing the number convicted of each offence, and distinguishing those convicted of having in their possession forged notes, purporting to be Bank of England notes, for £5 and upwards, from those con victed of uttering one or two pound notes. Mr. COURTNEY did not wish to enter into a dis cussion of the general question, but was desirous of offering a few remarks in reply to the strictures of the Honourable Gentleman on the Report of the Commissioners. they had considered it their duty to ascertain, as far they could, the result of the ex periments made before them. What might be thought of the result of their inquiries, or what weight might be attached to their opinions, they had not troubled themselves to inquire, and, in his opinion, they would have deserted their duty had they suffered. such con siderations to have any influence on their conduct.— They were, however, awaretiorthdr lteport must be subjected to much - discussion. 'Vinous men, confident of the merit of their plaits, wotild'be likely to think the seven Gentlemen to whom they were submitted incompetent to judge of their excellence. They had however thought, that to keep the public long in suspense would make ultimate disappdhit went be the more severely felt, and therefore they • before they cam to that final. it which he hoped. they would reach at no distant day, they considered it their duty to report, that the pub lic might know what they had done, and how tar they had proceeded. The language they had used went to convey an idea, that to substitute a Bank pore that could not be imiteted, fpr that now in cir culation, was not so easy as some had imagined.—. This was not intended to refute an idea that had been much encouraged, and, he would say, wickedly urged by some of tiitublic prints, that nothing but gross ignotance or 'pace on the pan of the Di rectorsof the Bank, had prevented some such plan from being adopted long ago. The Commission, if they had, wished to be popular, could easily bave adopted such sentiments; but they could see no Just grounds f o r doing so. He, for one, should haie beet glad if it had beat in his power to entertain - such an opinion. The Honourable Gentleman had truly said ! that the Report only spoke of nine of the eojecie l %Obi:tined to the Commission to have appeared Bair entitled to consideration. He would not, Z` ever; have it understood that there were not many e( great 'merit. The importance of the subject •hal tidied forth a - great display of talent. Many intd. nitins.pliths'were furnished by artists of this country , as wall ps by artists abroad, and espec ially by th ose t the United States of America. filthier run through most of the Papers ci gest3 1;6 the Commission recommendatory of emu- Frequently, a machine was snbmittcd t i would execute notes so that they could factitred with the same nicety by any Many were sent with a detailed account haps, satisfied the Committee that notes executed with the same nicety, and prods the same facility, without a similar mad they forgot that a smaller number might I I ced in a longer time, and though not exec, the same nicety, they might be done so the public without the use of machinery same means which they proposed should ' Thus, many ingenious men were shut • their consideration. The Honourable Gentlemen had spoken rather too mucl tious language of the Report. Thou i mission wished to guard against exciting might be disappointed—though they - that public expectation should not Le rai: they did not feel any thing like despair, the Honourable and Learned Gentleman seem that they did. From the experiment mended, they looked for the most bencfii They did not say that a note could be • would never be imitated, but they did would be produced that it would be e:st, cult to forge. They had selected the preferred because they thotyht (aud opinion of Gentlemen of great scientifil in the Commission) that on combination of ingenuity, would be like a satisfactory result ; and he was happy even since the date of the Report a matt ment had been effected. %hen comi c 3nnon with Ale other Members of the had strong hopes that the crime of forge made infinitely snore difficult than pith Mr. TIERNEY said, though some peared to have been recently made w. anticipated at first, all that coilld that there was a hope that the crime of be made more difficult than it is at psi these circumstances, he would not say , might create a mischievous impression but he could wish to ask when the till ment would be completed ? It w.ts this should be known to the Committee as it would be desirable that they sit,y hopes or expectations that flank-notes pounds can be made so that they tit lle washed to know when the new n( completed ? Mr. COURTENAY hegged to say, the plans were distinguished by great i venal of them were for some time um zion. It was then suggested that one proved by a combination. In order to etiect of this, experiments were necessai wen it applied to some kinds of paper have no hesitation in recommending it If it could be adopted with an iniprc;K paper, it would be ready within a moderate perhaps in the course of a month, and be recommended to the Bank as that likely to render forgery extremely ditfi‘. periment was now being tried at une paper-mills in the country. Mr. MANNING assured the Maus nerve would be strained by the Director , to carry the plan into execution as won The motion was then agreed to, an( ordered to be presented tothe Prince Regent , Members of the House as were also Members Privy Council. Sir J. 'MACKINTOSH then moved of the number of Fergcd Notes detected of England Liming the same pet iod comp. the former motion. He then reFcated suit of the labours of the Commiison months was merely an expectation that attend an untried experiment. The Hon... and the House were, however, much mistaken thought that he undervalued the labours mission. Evea if cash payments . were.. prevent the Forgery of Bank Notes (which form a part of our circulating medium ) jest of great importance. All the aid proved structure of Bank Notes could be wanted then for the protection of the for his own part,' had no hope that they be made any thing like a satisfactory s' cash payments, or that the crime of Forgery be greatly diminished while the issues of " continued the same. Mr. COURTNEY said a better note produced, which it was expected would . gory more difficult, and consequently snake 1 less frequent.—The motion was then agreed INISCELLANIF.S. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER Account► of the Exchequer Bills issued under an .% Etriianteat for granting £30.000,000 in Ex cheq uer under an Act for granting £11,600,000, outst and ing Tided foe, should be laid before the House.—: aimed to. Idr. ARBUTHNOT broutgght up the Paris which once ordered uslio on .. Mr. GRENFELL baying asked s qsesklks payments ntade cods. Bank in the last fair, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUI pectationlad bees hold out that a repayment t._ should be made is the cosine of the year till. 11.. 45,000,000 had been paid, and the rensasistgAZ.oooooo bees secured on the Supplies of the year.—Adionened. Mr. COLSON)! has it r ut received from MORGAW an English ranscript of the Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY, lately pronounced Atheturum of Paris, by the celelszated CONSTANT. It will be published on Monday Kort.—However theKentieh speculators been unfortunate in the article of Hops, last season, there ite seine articles in have been most fortunate : nitmely—in . of Lucky. Numbers in die Lottery. Of No. 5555, recently drawn a Prise of -Sold by Bun, AC/mamma residing at x. Half ; and, as if Fortune was resolved things, BY Helmu t this was in addition Share of £30,000 Sold to him by lbsir Lottery. A greet number of Capital; also obosiaed by persons' reside at Maidstone, tabor", Margate, Stc. to This has ve-y bvely spirit of adventure throegh?oi will, no doubt giro tun in F 0 . 0,01 1 1.1 tQ thio Cowley. • •-.;-. to t not be ;t ar , r other Lne,, c. nt, s could be produced si t !, machine ; Ir e ght he I.rw t ,. executed r i d ti o as to detei T , . iery. o r if teao id be adeF e , • , : which. oLt a and ch of t!.e rz a ugh the lig hop e s eh were araio, aired too hig sir, thou : h, t o u man it migh t •nt they ret, a.. le neficial tes...'3. • L invented 0.14 think Oa; ele L:itremeiy 06. one they IA tY. this was tle ific knowled ge the by a : 7 : ikely to lead:o py to say, • serial improve- npleted, he, io Conuniss.co, rgcry *call bt at c discovery ar. which was Da 72 %%V be said was, tr forgery scold re,ent. Uder aay thing tha • n okt of .dours; titimate experi. desirable & cc :bout to state ilcir for one or :sari ► aot be initAt!. note would be , that mace- merit, anal idcr consider:, e might Iv in- k) aseen.Lin try. 'Lacy 1,4,1 der, and could it to the !tank. )vement of zi.e moderate time, d it treald then hat which was iicglt. The ex- )ne of the use that ever :ors of the Mr., m as possible. nd the Adders Regent by sz...b klembers ft,r a 11:122 ed by the Balk mprehende,i ed that the re- n through sit t success would ;on. Gentleman mistaken if they ars of the COM' V. resumed, to rhich must still rr it was au ob- which the 1 afford, would to Public. He, hey could ever substitute fot F orgery would of the Bank sae would be uld make for- make the crime agreed to. LiER moved that an Act of die kg. 6~egqr~rrr Ems. ad and —The motion wa e a just =wad loc. „ - of es its D'Eft aid, ao e- s t of 13,000PN. Its Tan AM 01 4 33.00 0 • 01 * • mu Sir Onus e Eniozion nn red at the Kin' I U. BENJA uIs *Min nest. lators may hare during s he in which they .in the selecti on ( x- t h e Tic ket, f 430,000, and it Dartford, got Ived not to do Lion to anomer an, in a former al; have been laidstone, Cae - rag produced 3 hoot Kent, and a Bisat'S Age°