Star. — London, England, 1809-05-31 00:00:00

PitRLMMENTifRr PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OP LORDS, MAY SO. In a Committee of Privileges, their Lordships heard Counsel in the case of the claim of General Knollei to the title and honours of the Earldom of Benbury ; some questions- wer- pot to the Jadg, ni as to the ainaissioility of evidence frets Bills of Chancery, and aFter some observations, the farther he'ating was postpooeti to Thursday next. Several Bills were Isrought - -np from the House of Commons, aed read the first tiir e. Arnoog there were the Exchequer Bills 8.11, the Irish Post Office Enlargement Bill, the Loan 'barge Bill. *be Irish Recogsizance Bill, the Irrsii-Militia raiiily7rovisren Bill, the Ship Owners' Bill, Etc. . • The Booksellers' and Publishers' Indernnlif Bale were read A second time. Oa the reading cf the latter, the Duke of lelOkcol.lC.To 4 le, aid made some observetiens. His Grace intimated an inter fi`oh of proposing something early next Sessions, towards taking oR' these restrictions oe the press, for which the pretext used on their passing some time ae^ nes longer applied• The third reading was deftered, after some explanation free' the LORD CA A NCE L,LOR, till to-morrow. The Earl of SUFFOLK comeained of At:retry irregularities in the War Office, which he intendrd. OA a future day, to make tie subject of a motion. Hie Lordship adverted again to the case of M. de Caaemilfy, wnom he considered a person totally unfit to be employed by, or to recce-re any emolument from, the Go vernment of this country. He concluder: by saying, that he should, on Thursday next, submit a motion to their Lordships, for an en quiry to be made upon that subject. The Earl of LiVERPOOL brought down a Message from his Majesty, relative to the present state of the inferior Clergy who bad heel; under I 5Ci. per annual, and the inadequacy of the pro- Itsion for them uni:er Queen Anne's Bounty. The Message was similar to that which: •eas delivered to the House of. Cotnrecras Lest week. Or his Lordship's cation, his Majesty's Message was paler - et( to he taken into consideration on '1 hursday next, and the Lords were ordered to he summoned for that dad:. The Bill for preventing the Sale and Purchase of Offices, was ordered to be committed en Thursday nett, with the understan diug, that if the business of that day should prevent its coming on, it should ze into a Committee on Friday next. The third reading of the Scots Milnia Bill was, on the sugges tion of the Earl of B OSSLY N, deferred tilt to-tenet - cm; as was also the decision of the House on Paulet's Llyurce Adjourned at seven o'cieck. • • HOUSE OF COMMONS. The Purfiect Land and the Windsor Forest Bills were read in a Committee, and ordered to be reported to-morrow. Pursuant to the Orders of the House, Accounts were presented at the Bar, front the Import and Export Inspector's Office, the Naval Asylum, Greenwich Hospital, and the Office of the Irish Secretary—which wore ordered to lie on the table. Mr. PRENDERGASI' gave notice of a motion for Tuesday for papers relative to the Trade of India. Mr. BATHURST presented a Petition from the Booksellers and Publishers of London, praying an alteration of that clause in tke Act for preventing Seditisais Publications, which imposes cer tain penalties for omitting to annex the names of the printer and publisher to al! publications.—Ordered to lie on the table. The Report of the Charitable Donation Bill was deferred to Thursday ; and the third reading of the Gas Light Company Bill to Friday. Mr. DUNDAS SAUNDERS moved for a new writ for the Borough of Glasgow, in the room of Lord Archibald Campbell, who bad accepted the Chiltern Hundreds. A Messenger from the Lords announced their Lordships con currence in the African Trade Bill, the Snuggling Prevention Bill, the Printers' Indemnity Bill, the Bastardy Bill, and several Private Bills. - - - The Friendly Societies Bill was ordered to be committed for to-morrow. INDIA MILITARY AFFAIRS. Sir HENRY MONTGOMERY rose to state a rumour which had been confidently stated to him, relative to a material altera tion said to have talc. n place in the native troops of the British service in India, namely, that all the Grenadier Companies of the native troops wsre formed into battalions, and placed under the command of British officers. To ary Mart as long conversant with military service in India as he was, the extreme denger of rich an arrangement must immediately appear obvious. He stated the circumstance in order to be informed of the truth from some competent authority. Mr. DUNDAS said, that alt'iough he had seen no authentic &curlier,: stating the fact mentioned by the Honourable Baronet, yet it had been communicated to him from such a variety of quarters worthy of credit, that he had no doubt the facts were as stated. INNKEEPERS. Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE pre , ented a Petition from certain inn keepers, publicans, and licensed victuallers, resident in Gilling ham, Chatham, and other places in the county of Sussex, praying for an increase of the rates of allowances for soldiers billeted upon them. Mr. FULLER stated that the grievance complained of in the petition called loutly for a remedy throughout the country, and particularly in the county of Sussex. The SECRETARY at WAR admitted the tubject was worthy the attention of Government, and said that measures had been under the consideration of Government, for giving such relief as might be declared necessary. Sir E. KNAf CHBULL bore testimony to the sufferings expe rienced by the inn-keepers in Kent, 'on account of the excessive demands upon them by the quartering on them soldiers. Mr. CHARLES I)UNDAS adverted to the late extraordinary increase of the military, by the addition of the Local Militia, and thought that the pressure upon the Innkeepers must be severe in tl.e same proportion. After a few words from Sir T. TURTON, Mr. G. Rost, Mr. SUMNER, and Mr. SOAR Lerevat, the Petition was ordered to lie on the table. Mr. S 4V11.1.E presented a Petit'or. from the Innkeepers and Publicans of Oakhamptcn to the like purport.—Ordered to lie on the table. P.SOLVENC't BILL. Sir T HOMAS TURTON rose to move the Order of the Day for the seccnd reading of the Insolvency Bill, and he felt it necessary, at the same time, to submit to the House the case of some persons con fined for debt, but the amount of the demand against whom, had excluded them from the benefit of every Insolvent Bill which had passed during the long pe riod of their imprisonment, and left them no prospect but that of a severity which the law of this country could never have contemplated, namely, incarcera tion for life ; a...d such must be, in effect, their pu ni,hrnent for the erime of debt and insolvency, unless the Legislature, in its mercy and benevolence, should interfeee for their relief, and allow their names to be specially inserted in the . Bill. One of those unfortu nate persons had actually suffered already fourteen years impeLonment, and another fifteen years. There was nothing in their crime that must not have been folly expi.ited by so long and severe a confinement and exclusion from society. No possible or good pnrpose could be answered to their creditors by the connnuance of their miseries, as they were totally in solvent, and n - eist ever ccaninue so while in prison.— Incarceration for life never could have been contem plated l:y legal justice against any man for not pay ing a deot beca...ise utterly incapable of so doing.— li e should therefore take the liberty, in the Commit tee upon the ?;ill, to propose a Clause fur the libera tion cf all Insol , :e.:t Debtors, actcr five years impri soluncr., for any _stun nct exceedi ng 50001 . an d a ll debtors ci-ntined h:r any sant who shall have suffered in succinsion ten ye.trs imprisoement. he had some thev,:.ts of extending the operation of these Clauses to Lyland, bet found, on ei,quiry, they were unne cessary, as e.xs , or none woeld require them. He also hinted to Majesty's Chencellor of the Exchequer the (ere i.fdebtoes tl'e Crown, who were expressly precitided from the beneS: of every InFoivent expatiated on the severity of inflicting imprisen ment for life upon men fro fines or penalties on evo..; sions or frauds upon the Revenue, a species of frauds I certainly not less crimi.lal than any otber, akboisb mr.ch more venial in popular.estimation; and, to which the temptations were 'many and strong, 'and he trusted the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have no strong objections to the Clause for their relief. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUE.:: assured the Hon. Baronet that no six months ever elapsed without a revision of the cases of such men. and relief to such as. appeared to deserve it. He did not therefore conceive any enactment on the occasion r.c:essary. The Bill was read the second time, and ordered to be committed. SURR P.PTITIOUS PROMOTIONS IN INDIA. TURTON rose to enquire, Ns-he eler wits, intended,: try the Court Of ..Directors o z.ior the recal of, those unfor tunate persons Who had been:vent-out to India under ofilcial appointments,' Valtich, - . withouf'ank thing lihc, criminality or malconduct - oti"their parts, had been improperly obtained ? - Mr. MILLS said, that the Directors, however hurtful to their own feelings towards the persons in' questku, had felt it their indispensable duty to make : an order for their recal, with a view, by this exam., pie, to deer for the future all similar transactions. SALT. General GASCOIGNE, after some observations upon the great loss sustained by the British Salt Ma.' nufacturers, through the preference given in the Irish market to Foreign Salt, owing to the mode of impo- .J sing the Duties and a difference in the quantities be tween the Irish and English bushel, which gave a decided advantage of 30 per- cent. against English Salt in the Irish market, moved that a Committee be appointed to-morrow, to take the subject into coasi t . deration. Mr. FOSTER. sai(l, that the foreign Bay Salt was made in the Bays in Portugal, from the action of the sun only, whereas the British White Salt was pro duced by fire. The reason that the higher duty was laid on British Salt was, because the Salt made by the natural process hail more impurities, and it was supposed that SO pounds weight of Bay Salt was no more than equal to 56 pounds weight of the British Salt. The foreign Bay Salt was, however, infinitely better for packing provisions than the British Salt, which much sooner melted. He confessed, any thing which was sought for by so respectable a trading town as Liverpool, deserved the attention of Parlia ment ; but when it was recollected of what import ance the provision trade of Ireland was, and when -it was stated that a great part of the superior excellence of the Irish salted provisions depended upon the use of this foreign Salt, it would be but fair to give the persons concerned in the provision trade of Ireland time to state their opinion upon the object of the pre sent Motion. He should have no objection to a full enquiry before a Committee, early in the next Session. - Mr. C. HUTCHINSON agreed with the Right Honourable Gentleman who had just spoken, on the propriety of postponing to the beginning of next Ses sion a question of such importance. Mr. JACOB entered into a chemical analysis upon the nature of salt, and shewed, that the slower the process of drying the salt the slower the evaporation, the stronger the salt, and, that of course, if the pro cess by fire was continued to be as gradual as that by the sun, -he did not see the salt made by the fire might not be as serviceable as the foreign Bay Salt. • Mr. FOSTER said, in explanation, that he was aware that an attempt had been made in Lymington to make Bay Salt, and that it had failed. He said, that it was called Bay Salt, because made by being expi , sed to the sun in inlets or bays in Portugal. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that he trusted his Honourable Friend who brought forward this motion would now be satisfied that it had not met with as favourable a reception from his Right Honourable Friend near him as cir cumstances could pos,ibly admit of. He hoped, therefore, that the motion would not at present be pressed any further, with an understanding that the question would meet with every attention from that House early in the next Session. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, that the evidence at present was but ex parte evidence, and that they ought to wait until they heard the sentiments of those in Ireland interested in the subject, before they would decide either upon lowering the duties on British salt or augmenting those upon foreign salt. General TARLETON said, that England had been on all occasions bounteous and indulgent towards Ireland, in giving her every fair advantage in her trade ; and that if it was made out that the British Salt was as effectual in curing provisions as the Fo reign Salt, he thought Ireland should not object to the equalization of the two dut . es. The Bay Salt was the cargo under which brandy in general was smug. gled ; and perhaps it might be owing to this method of disguising smuggling that the Gentlemen in Ire land were able to drink such good wines. He had often been indebte I to them for a very hospitable portion of their excellent wines ; and he knew them to be very select in their wines in general, indeed thq drank it much cheaper and better than Gentle men in this country were able to do ; and that they did so, might be owing to the Irish market being pretty abundanCy supplied in this way. General GASCOIGNE then consented to with. draw his motion. FRAUDS IN THE IRISH REVENUE. Sir JOHN NEWPORT rose to call the attention of the House to an appointment which had been made in defiance of the express words of the Act of the 46th year of the King, and of every principle upon which promotions and rewards should be conferred. By the Act to which he had alluded, any officer of the Cus toms or Excise, who should, after the passing of that Act, take or accept of any fee, gratuity, or presents, from the Distillers whom they visited in the course of their duty, should be thereby incapacitated from hold ing any office, civil or military. Notwithstanding the express words of this Act, a Mr. Beauchamp Hill, who had confessed before Commissioners of Enquiry, that he had regularly received £2O per week from two Distillers who were in his district, was not only not dismissed, but was prcmoted from the situation of Surveyor to be an Inspector-General, which was a promotion in that very department in which the frauds had been committed. It was in September 1306, that he had confessed himself guilty of the fraud, as d nn the Bth of March 1808, he received his- promotion. He titoiltilt it would be useless to endeavour to guess • at what sort of defence could be set up, and concluded by nut= a resolution, stating the words Sf the Act of the of his Majesty, the confession of Mr. Hill , that heitad acted contrary to it, and his subseqttent promotion. Mr. FOSTER said, that certainly, owing to the adequacy of their salaries, an universal system of cor ruption had formerly existed among the revenue of ficers of Ireland, and that out of 32 excise officers examined by the. Commissioners of Enquiry, 30 of them had confessed that they had received similar presents. They justified it from its being a constatt practice, and known to be so by the Board who empl< y ed them, and who yet took no measuresici stop it. The practice of receiving thesoß•atnit4i was so universal, and so long in j aqp.,aottar Connived at, that it would have hgeß p tuaTair to select-one or two individuals for 'punishment, as almost every other officer in the reve nue equally deserved to be dismissed. Mr. Hill; ho*-, ever, was very ready to give every informat ion s power to the Commissieueraaof -.Enquitaciand was in every other respect a very good officer. He was there fore promoted for his merit, although he had in coms mon with all other excisemen done a thing ifiegal and improper. He therefore moved the previous question. Mr. HUTCHINSON thought nothing could bring the House into greater contempt than passing over so lightly such a flagrant case as had been now stated. Who, could believe that it was utterly impossible to find a single honest man to fill any office in the Irish rev,. nue ? If the revenue officers were so corrupt from bottOm to top, they should be all removed, and honest men sought for. If men in high situations had known of their frauds, and connived at them, they should also be dismissed. He had heard with infinite plea sure, that his Majesty had been advised to annul a Commission granted to a Noble Lord (Lord Burg hersh). He hoped he would also be advised to an nul this appointment. Mr. CROAKER said, that it was sufficient proof of the corruption of sortie of the revenue officers that they were alive ; for if they had trusted to their sala ries, they must have starved. The salaries were set tled in the reign of Charles 11. and were but 401. a-year to the gauger, and 6,:i. a-year to the surveyor. It therefore became necessary for them to get by some other means those necessaries of meat, drink,. and cloathing, for themselves and their families, which the pure abstract patriots of the present day might not think they had any right to think of. L. was Lord Annesley who had recommended this particular promotion, on no other ground but that Mr. Hill was an active and good officer. Mr. PFTER. MOORE said, that without pre tending to those abstract ideas of perfection, he would sill say, that although he had before heard a system of bribery and corruption avowed, he never did sup pose that such a scene of bribery and corruption as this could ever have been justified or excused. It appeared from the Report of the Commissioners of Enquiry, that the frauds committed on the Irish re venue by the licensel distillers, amounted in a year to £856,000, and that the principal cause of these enormous frauds was, that those officers were bribed to connive at them. These Distillers notv deprecated all manner of enquiry into those transactions. Mr. DUNDAS SAUNDERS defended the pro motion, on the ground of its being necessary to select for promotion persons in the service of the revenue ; and that it mould have been absolutely impossible to have dismissed them all. , SiT,SAMUEL ROMILLY said, that he had never in his life heard such doctrines gravely stated, as might be deduced from what had fallen from an Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Croaker). If a man's salary was not sufficient, was that an excuse for his taking bribes, and conniving at all manner of frauds against the Government which employed him ? As to the ridicule which the Hon. Gentleman appeared to throw out against those pure and abstract patriots, who would not consider the necessity of providinoneat, drink, or cloathing for themselves and families a suf ficient excuse, he would say that it never was allowed as an excuse for dishonest actions. If it were, any person indicted at the Old Bailey fur a robbery, would say it was only for the purpose of getting meat, drink, and cloathing fur himself and family. Such an excuse would not be admitted at that place. If the salaries of their places were not sufficient, did any body oblige these men to become excisemen? He must therefore support the original motion, as he conceived the promotion of such a person highly improper. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not think his Honourable Friend (Mr. Croaker) had maintained the general proposition that the Right Honourable Gentleman imputed to him. It was to be considered that in this particular case, when all the excise-officers in Ireland had been in the habit of taking certain regular presents from the Distillers, it would havebeen impossible to dismiss them all at once, as although that might be good in the way of exam ple, yet it would be a sacrifice of the revenues of Ire land for two years. If it were not contended that all the revenue officers of Ireland should be dismissed, there was no reason why the best of them should not be promoted. This man, although he had taken money, as others did, yet in other respects he did his duty. The cause, however, of this great corruption had now been removed by the increase of the Officers' salaries, and the Act might in future be strictly enforced.— The Act was of a prospective and not a retrospective nature ; and as to the case of Mr. Hill, there had been no legal conviction against him, nor any thing but his own confession before the Commissioners, which was not asked for the view of turning him out of his place. It did not appear to him that it was desired to select this man or any other for punishment, and therefore if he were allowed to stay in the revenue, he saw no reason why he should not be promoted, if he was di ligent and useful. Mr. HORNER spoke shortly in favour of the mo tion. He expressed his surprize at what had fallen from the Chancellor of the Exchequer—that a man should be continued in office who had been found guilty of corruption. He, for his own part, thought that a more flagrant abuse of power was.never heard of; a more unblushing breach of purity, he was cer tain, never, till then, appeared before that House, and as such, he thought it his duty to give it his de cided reprobation. Sir J. NEWPORT replied generally to the several I arguments urged against his motion. Ho thought the defence set up so extremely weak and defective, that it was only necessary to make a few observa tions. He insisted, that the, charge of Mr. Beau ' thamp Hill had been made out as strongly as the ease would permit. The malt books of Ross Cr—, Walk had not.been returned. It was said some of them had been carried away ; but what rernairtf:d : Droved that Mr. B. Hill was the Surveyor then, th.it 1.5,0(X) gallons of pot ale had been found there sup. pressed ; so that if you could not positively say a charge was found, it was very reasonable to suppose i:. He declared, he did not personally know Mr. B. his connexions, nor any of those pe r . ' sons in whose room he had 'been promoted, so that he . could not be actuated by the slightest bias or mo ' tive of favour or partiality. The first he knew r; Mr. Hill was seeing his name in the Report of the Commissioners of Enquiry. He censured the ground of argument that men known to be corrupt should be employed, on account of:their ability to fill a parti cular station. On thecontratt, he thought that, in a public officer, i lictriettl and character could not be tala4gerty, nor ought they, io be put in c c mp et i t i on with any ability, "ho - smvir great it might he. H e should therefore take the sense of the house on his motion . . -- • - Mr.'. BARHAM said there was one argument which ought to make the House cautious in what way they dealt with this motion. It had been plb licly and generally asserted, that many persons sat in that House by impropzr means. The public had taken, the alarm ; and it had been found in suppo rt of that, alarm, and those - assertions, that a Cabinet 11- !lister had actually been concerned in bartering for a seat in that House, and was defended for such an act. It was by the motion that moment under cons;d?ra tion, and the arguments urged in support of it, further asserted that corruptions prevailed in a most extensive degree over the whole revenue of Ireland. If some thing were not done to rectify these corruptions and abuses--if no step were taken towards removing them, he dreaded to think what the public opinion of that House must very soon be. A division then tools place—ln favour of the mo. tion 50—Against it 77. TYTIIES IN IRELAND. Mr. PARNELL brought forward a motion, pur suant to notice, " That an humble Address be pre. sensed to his Majesty, that he would order a Special Commission to be appointed, to inquire into the state and ratage of Tythes in Ireland, and to such other matters relating to the levying and collecting of Tythes as they may think proper to direct their atten tion to, and to report the same, with their opinion to the Home." Mr. R. DUNDAS, the Chief Secretary for Ire land, objected to the motion, on the ground that such a Commission might raise hopes and expectations in the people of Ireland, which that House might never be able to realize. It might create divisions and dis sensions which the House could not remedy, and though an inquiry into the subject mightbe necessary l and.proper, he did not think this was a proper me thod of entering upon the subject, Mr. F. FITZGERALD, ( Knight of Kerry), and Mr. PONSONBY, supported the :notion at consider able length. Mr. GRATTAN expressed himself glad to find that though Mr. Dundas objected to the Motion, he did not do the same to Inquiry. - If therefore soy Inquiry should be likely to take place next Seskim, he thought it would be more effectually done by a Committee, and was of opinion tha' the Commis. sioners moved for would be more likely to embarrass the proceedings of any Committeetrf that House than to be of the least service. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER opposed the motion . on the same grounds as his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary of Ireland, and of the dd. ficulty of substitutint'any other species of Property in lieu of Tythes. Sir JOHN NEWPORT spoke in favour of the motion. Le•rd CASTLEREAGH opposed it. Mr. C. HUTCHINSON defended the motion, and commented on the little regard - which the Noble Lord paid to the pledges he had made at,the Union to the people of Ireland. Mr. PARNEI.L replied, and the House divided on the motion, which was negatived by-147 against 76. MEDICAL BOARD. Mr. WARDLE rose to make his promised motion relative to appointments in the Medical Board. He stated the mortality in the East Indies to be such, that out of 30,000 men who were sent there, 13,000 died, and at least one-third of those were lost on account of the incapacity of the medical men who were allot. ted to superintend them. He also stated an over• charge of 100 per cent. taking place upon Medicines, which amounted to £15,000 on an average. He concluded by moving, " That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, pray ing, that there should be laid before the House a return of all the Medical Persons employed in the Army, all the Inspectors of Hospitals, Deputy Inspectors Mates, &c." The SECRETARY AT WAR did not oppose the Motion, which was carried, after a few words from Mr. Rose, Mr. Perceval, and Mr. Whitbread. AMSRICA. Mr. MARRYATT said, as he had heard with great satisfaction that Ministers did not'intend making any opposition to his Motion, he should not trouble the House with any observation upon it—he moved, ' " That an humble Address be presences to his Majesty, pray ing, that there be laid before the House Copies of all Notes be tween his Majesty's Minister and the Government of the United States, between the years 1807 and 1808, as to the repeal of the Orders in Council ; and also Copies or the Instructions from 11 , e Secretary of State to his Majesty's Minister in America, sat! a rising him to enter into any negociatioo." Mr. CANNING said, he was very desirous to cont• ply with the motion which had been just made. With respect to the production of the notes, he had no ob jection whatever. As to the instructions, in any other case he would feel delicate on the subject, because the publication of such documents was not very usual. — As, however, with respect to the particular instruc tions how required, his Majesty's Minister in. Ame rica had powers to communicate them in extent° to the American Government if he thought proper ; and as they were by this time, perhaps, public in the United States, he felt his objection in some degree removed. Having said so much, lie did not think it necessary to dwell on the substance of those papers at present, but should reserve himself to another epportunity. — He could not help saying, however, that his Majesty's Minister in the United States had not only not acted according to his instructions, but had acted in direct contradiction to them. He gave every concession without insisting on any of the conditions of which such concessions were to be the consequence. • Mr. PONSONBY wished tie know whether the Mi- ~~