Star. — London, England, 1811-01-24 00:00:00

1 - jjlablifENTAlr P4ROCREDIIVGL •111.10•IMMO•••••• HOUSE OF LORDS, JANUA R Y 93. I The Archbishop of CANTERBURY moved, that the Lord Bishop of Roomette be requested to preach before the House on Wednesday, the SOth instant, at the Collegiate Church of Saint Peter, Westminster ; ',hick was ordered accordingly. COMMON HALL PETITION. Lord EIVICINE presented a Petition from the Lord Mayor, oerr nen, and Livery of the City of London, in Cemmoa-hall nth led, in favour of an Unrestricted Regency. °w rite Petition being read by the Clerk, his Lordship moved that it should lie on the table. This proposition gave rise to a conversation in some respects of ah irregular nature, some of the Noble Speakers having been a number of. times on their legs. It was principally between the Loma Cam:mon, Lord Easniez, and the Earls of LAU DERDALE and LIVERPOOL. It was contended by the Noble and Learned Lerch and by his Noble Friend the Secretary of State, that agreeably to the orders and usages of their Lordships 1-louse, the Petition purporting to be what it did, viz. from the Corporation of the City of London, and aired as it actually was by certain individuals, with out the Corporate Seal of the City thereunto annexed, could not be regularly received. All petitions pur porting to be from Corporate Bodies should have the seals of those bodies attached. It may be received as t h e petition of the individuals signing, but no more. On the other side it was contended, by Lord ER.S juNt, particularly, that the Petition was so signed. a t the desire of the very numerous body who voted it. So the Sheriffs stated, who requested he would pre sent the Petition to their Lordships, viz. by the Lprd . Mayor, four Aldermen and a number of the Livery belonging to the different Wards. It was for them selves and the rest of the Livery. He believed their Lordships would have hardly patience to hear the fist read, did the whole of that great assembly indi vidually subscribe their names. For his part, he was not anxious that the motion should pass ; for, if it did - sot, another meeting would take place, and-the ob stacle which now presented itself would be done away: therefore, when this was considered, he did not think there would be any cavil about the wording of that Petition. The LORD CHANCELLOR with some warmth observed, that no Noble Lord should style the objec tion he had made to the .receiving any instrument, when not warranted by the rules and usages of their Lordships' House, " a cavilp without his contra. dicting him. Did he not make the objection which he had done, as Speaker, he shOuld deem it a derelic r;en from his duty, and so far criminal in himself.— .Ile then repeated what the Orders of the House pre. scribed in such cases. The Earl of LAUDERDALE did not think the objection of the Noble Lord on the Woolsack so en tirely well founded as he seemed to imagine. Was it not frequently the practice of their Lordships to re ceive petitions from persons confined for (hist, on be half of themselves and the other debtors confined in the same prison ? He remembered a striking instance, namely, of a petition from all the Debtors in Scotland, when it appeared that the petition was signed only by such as were then confined la Holyrord House, The Earl of LIVERPOOL was clearly of opinion that the Petition, purporting . to be what it did, could not be received. The petitioners, as designated in the petition, had no corporate capacity. The Cor poration of the City of London consisted of the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Commons, in Common poun cil assembled. .- - The LORD CHANCELLOR said, he should feel so strongly as to the propriety of adhering to the Orders of the House in such a case, that he should call upon the Noble Lord on the Woolsack to inter fere and enforce their Lordships' Orders. (A laugh.) Petitions from individuals, he observed, could be re ceived only as from those who actually signed. Earl STANHOPE noticed the mistake made by the Lord Chancellor, in his allusion to his Noble and learned Friend, and trusted his words would soon be verified. He thought the difficulty might be got over by moving, which he accordingly did, that -41 this Petition do lie on the table." Lord ERSKINE observed, that the Motion now proposed was the same totidem vrrbis, that he origi nally made. The LORD CHANCELLOR had no objection to the Motion, but wished it to be distinctly understood that he assented to it on the ground of taking the Pe tition only as the Petition of those who signed it. The Earl of LAUDERDALE admitted the elif ficulty in point of form, but observed, that nothing could preventlti be - big - known that the Petition spoke the sentiments of far the greater part of the Corpora tion, she Livery and the Inhabitants of London. The Eail of LIVERPOOL did not think it neces sary to enter into the discussion as to whose sentiments the Petition spoke, but suggested the propriety, in conformity with the usage o f the House, of making an entry on the Journals, stating that the Petition was received as the Petition of those who signed it. Lord GRENVILLE thought that the difficulty might be obviated, by making a slight alteration in the Petition. The Earl of RADNOR desired to know how the Entry would stand, were the Petition as it then stood received and ordered to lie on the table ? The Noble Earl was informed, it would be entered " the Petition presented." His Lordship then said he must object to receiving the Petition, unless framed conformably to the Orders of the House. A similar sentiment, after some further discussion, seeming to be generally entertained among their Lordships, Lord ERSKINE agreed to withdraw his motion, that the Petition do lie on the table; and it was ordered to be withdrawn accordingly. QUESTION OF PROXIES. The Order of the Day, upon which their I-OrdshiPs were summoned, for the discussion of this subject, 'ing read— The LORD CHANCELLOR. moved -that the Report of the Committee appointed to search for Precedents respecting Proxies, and a Cnpy of the Circular Letter of the Chancellor, written to desire the attendance of the Lord, by command of the I - J-ouse, be read—which beial • the I_ degree . ,-,.once the , ; . , the . e decision which their Lordships should make, censti. ; superfluous—there was no necessity for such a discus tuted as now, upon the general subject being brought 1 tient as, in his mind, no Lord whatever calied the fully before them. The Noble Lord then adverted right adverted to ie question. He was opposed to to the proceedings which had taken place on a former ; the idea that the House should preclude itself, as now ' eight, when some discussion of the subject took place called upon, from the means of adopting its modes of 1 w hile the doors were closed ; and observed, that he deliberation to the exigencies of the particular cases. could assure their Lordships he did not know i A controul over its own powers constituted one of the what the then state of the Proxies was, or how they ; leading excellencies of such assemblies as that House; might preponderate on either side ; but what passed ! powers, Which they exercised for the interests of the on that. night convinced him that it became his duty ; public. They could find no record upon the Jour to take an early and regular opportunity to call their ; nals of that House, on which such a proceeding as Lordships' attention particularly to the subject. It that in question could be urged. It went to circum. admitted of various points of view ; but whatever scribe their deliberative powers. It was objections may be the opinions entertained upon it, he thought ble in other points of view. Notwithstanding the de it of great importance that the general question should clarations of the Noble and Learned Lord, respect be agitated and regularly decided on by the House. ing his imputing no bl ime to 'any Lord for the pro- 1 What had passed on the occasion he alluded to, con. ceedings of a former .night, these very propositions .iinced him the snore firmly of this, for he held it next were framed se as to cast a sneer upon these proceed. to impossible that any reason could be given, why fogs , by a side wind. He wanted to controvert that , what had then passeMikula not be regarded as a pre. proceeding, which he hesitated to do directly' in cedent. There was another reason which rendered a point ; such conduct 6, champion'd them to the et decision necessary : it appeared to him that the Peer- terance." What gave rise to that proceeding, but age of England were, in these points of view, divided the wish of Noble Lords at his side, to protect the ' to twoclesses,viz.thnseLordsofParliament whowere dearest rights of the people and the country from-the ore sent, and those who were not. The whole as Peers blow aimed at them by the Noble Lords opposite ? a the Realm were vested with equal rights ; he there- It was unwise in the extreme to bring forward such fore knew of no principle that could possibly be questions at this time, a period in which, in his mind, , , stated, that the Lords present should alone vote, jealousies seemed to be entertained — (Order , order, ,I it hile their right was withheld from those who hap- from the Ministerial Benclses)—he was going to add, I -pened to he absent. Not a little stress seemed to be that such jealousies were unfounded. It was highly *id by those Noble Lords who entertained a con. impolitic to agitate such questions at this time. No- Vary opinion teat the assembling of the Houses was thing could be more disadvantageous, the Noble is a convention, and not e regularly as the two Houses Lord came forward on the occasion, " in rusty and 'of Parliament. This appeared to be agreeable to the marvellous ill-favoured armours." That Noble Lord fashion of modern refinements; as was the idea that did not seem to be aware of the mischievous tendetry there was of right, no such thing as voting by proxy. ,of such a discussion at present, he gave him credit It appeared also as popular with some to object to that he was not. He may have a particular object doing away subsequently in a House, what was pre- in view, and not see the extent of evil which may lie viously voted by a Committee. But these notions or beyond that—the adoption of such Resolutions would illusions had no weight with him. The history and lead their Lordships to a pledr, the extent of which records of Parliament had long established the right they may not be aware of. Ihe Noble Lord seemed ,of Peers voting by their Proxies. Whether regarded to keep back the real state of the question on the oc as a privilege, or a duty, the right was incontrover- casion more than once alluded to—that consideration tible. The consideration of the Peers being absent , would decide the question between them. The whole from the discussions, could not be effectually urged, ' foundation of these proceedings was the question when it was considered how very often it happened, whetheror not Proxies shouldbe gives in the then state that when debates began at five o'clock in the even- i of the House ? NJ previous determination had then jag, Peers who contributed to the decision by the ; been made, because it could sot enter into the mind votes, did not think proper to attend in their places . of man that so gross a proposal could have been of before two or three o'clock in the morning ; yet none fered ; there were occasions of such peculiar impor ever thought this absence from the discussion, a ' tance, that much benefit would result from open and ground for depriving them of their Parliamentary , public decisions. If this point was curried, much roehts. Even with respect to the judicial business of , danger may arise to the best interests of the country 4 - the House, it was never held otherwise than that it would lead to a train of injurious consequences that Peers had the right of voting, though they never ,it was impossible to say where it would stop. GOD beard a word of the arguments or the facts of the forbid he snohld say that his Noble Friend was con gests. It was true that such a privilege may be ab. 1 scious of the extent of the evils which may ensue!.' rd, but still the right exists—but, he repeated, whe- ! As to what was Said of this being a Parliament regtO diet it was either a privilege or a right, nothing ! early assembled, he would only observe, that Noble old be done to invalidate it, without the fnoet se- ; Lords opposite teemed to consider it as such, or the - rims and deliberate consideration. That this was the cdnirary, - just asit suited the objects they had in view. 0 law of their Lordships' House, he collected from the In concluding, he insisted that the question now be. usage of many, many years past. He was aware, fore their Lordships was not only unhecessary, but that, in very remote periods, such as the reign of , mischievous, and that in no possible view could it be Henry 11. some writs of summons were issued, : beneficial. He should therefore move the question which precluded the use of Proxies--but they wersf; of adjournment upon it, in order to give the House not now assembled under any such writs, they the means of avoiding those evils, which the adoption Wset under a regular prorogation by the will of his I of such Resolutions would lead to, and the injurious ,Majesty ; the exercise of Voting by Proxy was I conclusions that would be drawn from such conduct allowed in all cases, even as he had observed with ;on the parts of their Lordships. He concluded by respect to the judicial business of the House.— moving " That their Lordships do now adjourn." e but the particular exercise of that right was a differ- REGENCY BILL. ent question. The House had in some instances de. , The Messengers who were sent up by the House laded that Proxies should not be used, but this had of Commons with the Regency Bill from that House, always been done by a special reservation of the being for some time in waning, right—but no decision had ever been made without , The Earl of LIVERPOOL proposed an adjourn a prelirginary discussion or previous determination ment of the debate for a few minutes, in order that having taken place respecting the particular cases.— the Bill in question should be received, and further The occasional practice of the King's licence with inconvenience to the Members of the House of Corn respect to this privilege had long been disused, and ; mons avoided. Which being agreed to— no mention was made of it in writs for many years i The Chencellor of the Exchequer, attended by a past. Upon these general grounds it was that he had great number of Members from the Commons, pre framed the propositions he meant to submit to their sented the Regency Bill, desiring the concurrence of Lordships ; ' recurring again to what had been said their Lordships thereto. that the Houses had not been regularly assembled in 1 The Earl of LIVERPOOL hoped their Lordships Parliament—Against this fallacious idea he must con- I would so far admit of an interruption in their present tend, that the meeting which took place-on the first , proceedings as to allow the Bill to be read a first time, of November, was in consequence of his Majesty's re. which being assented to, the Bill was read a first time gular prorogation ; that they were the Houses of accordingly, when Lords and Commons, in Parliament assembled—they The Earl of LIVERPOOL moved, that it be were assembled by his Majesty's Royal Authority, printed, and read a second time to-morrow. because regularly prorogued to that day. What , ' Lord MOIRA again rose and repeated his m o ti on ought to have been done in this Parliament was every 114 That the House do now adjourn." , different question from what the Houses were duly ' Lord ROSS argued at some length against the authorised to do—but it was important it should be reasonings of Lord Mcira. He reminded their Lord known what they were, viz. the Lords and Commons ships that their privileges as Peers were deeply involv in Parliament assembled under his Majesty's Royal led in the present cinestiOn. They were now sitting, Authority. There was no possible plea for calling and had been sittiew since their first meeting as Peers - --- ,Mine , versation—all their rights and 4 Parliorne , • ateliheyehad ber sitting .11,; of . _ _dent '• siL._ ig as such in virtue of they la'st prorogation, as such he conceived their right to vote by Froxy as a right inherent in them as Peers. If they had not been sitting its Peers of Parliamenr,By what right or authority would they hAve adjourned from time to time ? By what right did they frank letteri? He regretted much the dis-. cussion that had taken place on a former evening re specting this right. ; That discussion turned on points very, intricate and perplexed ; indeed, he was sorry to add, it war hurried into something bordering on iiinfusion.. If they had been wrong on that occasion, 'it . Was magnanimous and wise to acknowledge and correct their error ; -if they were right, there was no necessity for the present disossion. He must warn thaw! however, strenuously to assert and defend their right of voting by Proxy, as mg of their most ancient and valuable privileges; ins and protecting, on tl - might establish a precedenl be taken more generally, some future occasion. The Earl of MANS?' the privilege gf Toting , right in their Lords} licence, and subi , but not to its hint that the two Hones 'Were • • - such asserm.....ig a con. _ privileges adhered to them ; of course, among the rest, that of voting by proxy. Were it held other wise, no writs could be issued for the election of Mem bers ; they could not sit in Committees, or exercise their ordinary functions. What he said this for, was to thew that the same authority which gave the Lords present a right to vote upon questions before them, also gave the Lords absent a right to vote by their proxies ; he spoke of the right—the propriety was another question. In this view, he argued against the justice of finally deciding in any particular cases, without some antecedent proceeding had taken place against the privilege of voting by proxy; and after again referring to what had taken place on the occa• sion, when the question was originally agitated, he proceeded to move his proposition, as the subjects which were couched in font Resolutions of some length, the substance of which appeared to be as fol lows : That upon any question put by the Speaker 'of the House, Proxies may be called and counted en, unless in cases where a Standing Order of the House determined otherwise ; that upon any motion being made, that Proxies shall not be received previous to any question being put, it should be competent to any Lord to move the previous question upon such motion ; and that upon taking such decision upon such previous question, the absent Lords shall be ea ‘r r ' ~. accompanied subject 'as OM which made voting by proxy inapplicable. _ perceived ao such consequence. He could not help thinking, that on a former night there was a very improper as: - 1 sumption of power ; and that the Resolutions as then sent down to the Commons, were not those of thus Peers of the realm. but only of a part. The Duke of NORFOLK denied that the Privy lege of the Members of that House voting by proxy,. was an 'original right. It.had been at various period', extended to a great length ; but the House had, by its own standing orders,- at different times limited and modified it. It was not allowed in the judicial proceedings of that House, or when their Lordship* sat in Committee. Hose then, under such circom. ;tames, could k be considered an inherent right i' It was also not admitted in the periods of 1788-9, when the Regency question was before the subject ; and it was extraordinary to see those Noble Lords, ahe dwelt so much on the propriety of adherhig to that • precedent, in other points endeavour s to &vista sO - from it in this case. . . • Lord STANHOPE expressed his determination to vote for the motion of Adjournment.; not that he shrunk from the discussion, but because it was one mode of rejecting the Resolutions of the Noble and, Learned Lord. That Noble Lord (Eldon) must ex. vise him, when he said that out of his own month he. would convict him. He would thew that he bad re futed every argument that night advanced in favour of, his Resolutions, by the very doctrine inserted in his Pro. test. In his Resolutions he spoke of inherent rights, whilst his Protest admitted the power of the House to limit, modify and controul the Privilege of Voting by proxy. With respect to those Protests he must say, that among all the Dissentients, that to which the signa ture of Arden was affixed, was by far the wisest, be cause it very properly abstained from attempting to give any reason at all. But the Protest of the Noble and Learned Lord, if well founded, was the strongest censure on his Resolutions ; whilst on the other, if his proposed Resolutions were correct, his late Protest was a mere mockery. Such bf their Lordships, as were versed in Parliamentary History, must be aware that the House itself had felt it its duty to interfere. against the abuse to which this Privilege led. Where . on an cccasion a Peer came down with no less than seventeen Proxies in his pocket, had the Noble"etad i Learned Lord ever read the standing orders on titer, subject, he would certainly have learned to resets* his zeal and mitigate his anxiety en, this point. r observe (said Lord Stanhope) that the Noble apd , Learned, Lord shakes his bead, whilst,his elbow is ,shttok by another Noble and Learned Lord (Redes ' dale) neat him ; no doubt the whisper is, " Look you here, Jack, when next we sign a Protest, we must go . down early to the House and read it over together." '—" Yes," answers Jack ; laugh) " and with care and attention too ; for if we do not, there is that 1-cal fellow Stanhope in the House of Lords, who will Teed it publicly after us.'" (d laugh.) The Noble end Learned Lord, however, contended, that when the House met it was as.a constituent , branch of the Parliament. He used the word Parliament just as it answered his object ; and his applicati..n of the term, reminded him of the definition of %hat was called a pun. It was defined to be the taking of a word in two senses, when it was predicated of the one that which was meant of the other. A young woman, a neighbour of his in Kest, asked her lover, when discoursing on this point once, to give her an "example.—" Give me a subject," said her lover. " His Majesty," said the young woman. 44 His Majesty cannot be a subject," was the answer, and the pun. Similar was the interpretation put upon the term Par liament by the Noble and Learned Lord. But he would ask, if this privilege of voting ) by Prosy was an inherent right, why was it submitted toaC.ommittee CO investigate the nature of,that right The very appointment of that,c, omrnittee proved at least that it was doubtful, .and when there woe a doubt, who but the House could decide upon it ? It had decided, and the decision of them had given the greatest satis. saction both in town and country. In some country village it was told him that soon after that decision, an honest Whig barber had put on his sign a placard, saying, " Whigs shaved hate for a pew, and Tories fur three.halfpcnce." When, asked why he made the distinction ? his reply was—That since the late me morable triumph of the Whig Lords against Proxies, 'the Tories had such long black muzzles that the opera tion ofshaving them was rendered much more difficult. (A laugh.) To allow such a power on the late ocea. ion, would have been attended with the most (lane. roue results to tlw Constitution. It would establish the worst species of oligarchy—an oligarchy that nei. , her listened or reasoned—an oligarchy of parchment and of paper. The LORD CHANCELLOR had not heard much argument to which he thought it necessary to reply. He thought, however, that neither he him. self, nor the subject before the House, nor even their Lordships' House; had been treated very gravely. .One Noble Lord (Moira) had represented him as .coming down to the House clad in rusty armour, and i championed to utterance ; and he must suppow that ,it was to show contempt for such an adversary that .-the Noble Lord, ,though unarmed himself, should ;have so attacked him (Lord Eldon) though thuscla# ain rusty armour. 'lt had also been observed, tbaa Lpeople out of doors could not have much respect, kit their proceedings, if Noble Lords were to - vote not in person, but by proxy; not having heard the grave reasonings which might have been urged to impress I conviction on; their minds... He could only say, that ofter, the speech which he had just heard from the _ r). (*tan) would ' •LeW( l7 "mold House, rather put on Lord Mow.% • divided— tn o . init o . I . `_~'~. . . . ~ . 4 t • His Lordship rose for dip purpoil 1411• 0 top.i tlitiolipvsp.4 th e i r ' p a d a , t h eee his - t„, t i itri f. 004 , 414 4 10 .4.40.6. 0 tat ward to the consideration , and fdt ti.ke i . : . ~...W Mig Ibelillt!fats it* wever, ta., a. liobla j ,Lopealb.that- when affairs of f ' - "t It u tat"''' • iieb • the House, the propositioni touching the su el of tiiisuon beinip A ut an the rS eso ion , difScuTty pressed .404,.. the 'House, , it was Proxies, of which he had given notice on a oilier . 'lit" Earl of MOT rime, and ih warm and ani. proper that psiilies should be selected ; Lot this ar- o ) evening.—Before he eutered upon the discussion mated language expressed his hostility to the adop- gtirhent went trio far; let in the present Circumstances I the immediate question regularly before the House, tion of the Resolittions proposed by the Noble and of Europe and tke country, he could hardly contrive he made some remarks upon the cases and precedents Learned Lord. He said, that although it seemed ;o any public measure that would not be accompanied adverted to in the Report. He was of opinion, that be regarded As merely a question of order, the ques- with diitculties. ft was also said, that the static . ~ w a the proceedings and decisions of the House as it tfien ' tion involved was of great magnitude and impor - lately under the discussion of the House was. ' • . stood, could not regularly in any degree influence the ttnce ; at best the agitation of such a question was whioh admitted of variation from time to time, A__:..:_......t.:,.5..1...... t .m.A.),:n. chruit,t ....44.. ennsri. 1 auoerfluous—there was no necessity for such a discus.. made voting by proxy inapplicable. He perceived —•-• ;IL.; 11.41. it./41:1.11 ••11J4,411 .J. 6••••• p.a.. aaGOLA %A MI ~ ..1 valuable iri;rileges; - for if they neglected assets - .14,141e-Earl, (*tanhope) who had spoken last, it and protecting, on the present occasion, the l nis forlheir 4w-dships to , consider, whether it ;ht. establish a preceder.t, of which advantage might •ssot be bet: e lgonsulting the dignity of that I- ;ken more generally, to attack and in va d e t h a t 04 :and the t d mof their proceedings, to vote ie future occasion. • .• by proxy than in petson. 'he Earl of MANSFIELD was of opinion, that The question • was then put on Lord lit privilege Qf voting by, proxy , was an• inherent Anaendrneat, when the tiqpia divided— lt in their Lordships, communicated by the King's content. pillion, , it,.. Prosks, 57. nce, and subject to the regulation of the Holice, Non-cuatents present. . Got to its confront. N o argument had convince s` Majorky fog —2. A A . l that the two Houses ° were not a Rerliaratent ea .44 100 .. .voltitlim p , • Inv 3roiv i A prr), . . 0 . O . i - • • • • . . - , ‘, l ' .• ' Y ✓ . . . l P ` s rift'