Star. — London, England, 1819-11-27 00:00:00

rrfour.ded prejudice against tl.e Masis '..t.-0, if an inquiry were instituted, the cn t he public mind would be, that the Ma- He contended that .the Meet were g oilty. illegal. It was in itself a riot--(Hear, ;:a.l been so decided repeatedly, and by on the Bench, whose authority would „ r i g ht. Lord.,Holt had declared, „ that a,scrubled in numbers, in• terrors,m pordi, . a riot." Arms were not necessary, for su p)te t heir plitce ; aad could there be t hat 100, 000 persons assembled, as at even without arms, would create more ..';‘:.m.four armed' individuals. Judge Forster subject, that " numbers supplied the de weapons, and made it a riot." But i or r.,ing the litnchester Meeting not to have not, it W:IS sufficient that it was .an illegal as :rto jastify.its dispersi..n. With respect.to the i.l which it had been dispersed, he was sur to hear the Magistrates blamed for having em s; the Yeomanry instead of- the Military. The o p w as the Yeomanry] (once of the coUll inupplied the place of the posse comitatus, when or were usable to execute their duty, and was N g most fit for the service in which it had been ,red. lle then contended that restrictive laws be barer than the abuse of the right of meet which produced such terror. He urged the au x of checking the advance of popular tumult in ;lest stage. It was then only that the remedy be successfully applied. If it was delayed till , ;bole body was infect e d , i t could have no effect.' ;! the Magistrates had done right in suppuessing wing as soon as they did. It had been said,. Dristianity was the religion of -Liberty;. it was .41: of liberty founded on law, and respecting . ; :!ts of individuals—(Hear, hear !)—lt was in :‘c: on the House to pass some law to prevent Iblication of blasphemous libels. In every Re there had been laws to regulate the Press.— necessary, for it sowed the seeds which : ,,ring up armed men. In the present case, no doubt, that could Any .cring man become and acquire the full confidence of the dis :e2, those armed men would soon spring up in rt laul.—(llear, hear!) lAILTIN (of Galway) assured the Honour- Amber opposite (Mr. George Lamb), that he -.3; surprised that he had expressed concern for ksAl of any innocent persons who bad unfortu iyfalien victims in the late transactions at Man. a t . No one that had afeeling heart but must t s.tid the Honourable Member) that many men, :n, and children, had been sufferers on.tbat Oc e; and it was unnecessary fat the Honourable ::nan to make any apology for contributing to • relief. To repair the losses which families had :cd, and to alleviate their distress, he would say, example not only free from blame, but laud and deserving imitation—one that he thought to be followed, and of which no man ought to lamed--(Hear, hear, hear). There could be no '2t of the propriety of the motive for sincerely re ..;.g those who had been deprived of aid by their dabs—(Laughter). The humanity of some Gen ie., on the outside of the doors was more laud i thmt their speeches within. The influence of spt.ches was very unlike that of the contribu vi.lch put money and sustenance into their azhs—(Load laughter). He could not help think- I, that the few pounds which had been subscribed ithitt purpose were more beneficial than all the c.titing speeches that had been made. He then '4ile.l with some praise to the conduct of an Ho !gible Baronet (Sir Francis Burdett) who, he said, 4 adopted the families which had been made or . at Manchester. He then deprecated the pro 'on for an inquiry into that affair at the Bar of House, and denied the competency of the House ifcri substantial relief to the sufferers. The pro place was the Quarter Sessions or the Court of 7g's Bench. If an injury was to be compensated looney, Parliament could not nward it—( Hear , 21. An Honourable and Learned Gentleman (Mr. , ngham) had said ori a former night, that the in- . ...g4tion of the conduct of the Magistrates and the eamanry at the Bar of the house could in no way , -2:1 to its prejudice, as the weight of its censure .11d rather run in favour of the accused in a Court law. This, said the Honourable Member, is a r:sy way of reasoning —(Hear, hear). It 'hewed t tie inquiry dernanded ought not to be allowed, result might, in the Courts below, upon such a . atit , lz, favour the escape of an offender from pu -Imvat—(Cries of Hear, hear). The scales of jos- - e should be held even, so that a grain of dust d turn the balance. He could not but attribute 'evils complained of, even the maiming and loss tt, the speeches so often repeated by Gentle a opposite, and which excited much of the popu i.: feeling out of doors, by impressing the People 'tithe absurd notion, that the Tae were. levied supportPlacemen and Pensioners—(Hear, keess4 . 15 ~, ;. begged these Gentlemen to compute the amount the salaries given to Placemen and Sinecurists ; 4 he would maintain, that if such places were olichei, the ta.zes saved by that diminution of ez nditute would not give the People of England a helkEist—(Hear, and laughter). Parliament had :41 likened to a Grand Jury ; but he begged to if a Grand Jury could reconcile their conduct :'their oaths, in putting a man on a Grand Jury for ''ie--;Loughter)—or murder, because they were nemccti that his innocence would bring bin: safe ." 0 “gil the ordeal, and enable him to retire un , :iiell ham the burning plough-share? It reminded rn of a certain kind of trial us the Court of Rome, ..: ~tiject of which was, to try whether a man was —(Gi cat laughter). On that occasion, there Z . 4 vcry singular kind of Advocate—namely, the A loc.ite of the Devill—(Hear, and laughter). His 74 ct was t') plead against the saint, and to deny his blues and mira c l es , in which he sometimes shewbd 1 , c.it ingenuity. Now he (Mr. Martin) hoped, that ....iA yea on the opposite side of the House had a .. , :'.:r client than his Majesty the Devil !—(Loral 1,, ;i.)). The Honourable Member concluded by T.Jlcing a f ew remar k s on t h e di sm i ssa l of Earl Pita ,iiii.t:ll, which, he said, was an act of necessary vi :o o Vt. the part of his Majesty's Ministers, but reflect .llo dissrne upon his public and private virtues. Ar. WILBERFORCE rose to correct a mistate t4.... which had gone a b roa d, res pe c ting his opinion a former Light, as tuthe intention of the Meeting .` lasicheger. He denied that he had ever stated that it was the object of that Meeting to continue in force until the night, and then set - lira to the town. He had adverted, indeed, to the Report of a Secret Committee in 1817, which attributed such a design to a previous Meeting ; and lie had done so, in order to shew more clearly, the strong reason which the Ma gistrates,who remembered the intention of the Meeting two years before, had to be alarmed with respect to the views of the Heating of the 16th of August last. They might naturally have concluded that it was the intention of the last-mentioned Meeting to wait until the night, to begin the work of conflagration and plunder. They knew also that the augmented distress would favour such views, if they were enter tained ; and they were, of course, the more solicitous to deliver the town from -circumstances which. me naced so fatal a calamity. The Hon. Member then took the opportanity Of repealing, that he could not • agree to an inquiry, unless a very strong and clear case were made out against the Magistrates. To ad dress the Throne, as had been proposed by the Amend ment, would be to throw great presumptive blame •upon the Magistrates. He eulogized the Magis tracy of England for the voluntary and effective ser vices which they rendered their country ; and de dared that their manner of executing the laws, and the virtuous activity which they showed, upon all oc casions, in defence of order, and in support of the best interests of the social state, had great and salu tary effect upon the moral habits and personal cha racter of Englishmen.. It was his opinion, that the result of an inquiry in that House, must be unsatis factory, as evidence could be but imperfectly col lected, and there might, possibly, be drawn from it, as many conclusions as there were individual Mem bers. The proceeding would never have the effect of endearing the House to the People. It would make it more suspected. Evidence, in such a case, should only be taken where it could be verified on oath ; and where, also, front the absence of all party feeling, the whole truth could be sifted to the bottom. As to the expression of regret which, some were of opinion, ought to hive been introduced into the Ad dress, be thought it was quite superfluous; no one could doubt, the melancholy event was a subject of regret, and the necessity for it lamented, among all but those who wished for slaughter and civil war. The subject of the employment of the poor, he was convinced, was one of deep interest with his Majes ty's Ministers ; but then they had not held out any positive promise to the People, because they did not wi,h to excite hope which might, by any possibility, be disappointed. It would be unwise to throw a gleans of sunshine upon misery, which might render • more embittering, by its absence, the darkness of the storm. Still, he thought, that labour would soon be extended, to the benefit of individuals and the com munity. He had no doubt, that the increase and diffusion of employment would be found practicable at no long period ; and that the portion - of the lower classes, now unemployed, would be enabled to cans their livelihood by their own hands, instead of being under the necessity of making a mendicant applica thin to the Poor Rates, to the injury of the public in terests, and the deterioration of their personal cha racter—(Hear). Oh ! Sir, (said Mr. Wilberforce) our feelings ought to be like those of that great man; Lord Falkland, who, in the beginning of the civil wars, put on mourning ; and, in walking up and down his room, was constantly heard to repeat the words peace, peace! The present was a time which imperiously demanded the sacrifice of party feeling upon the Altar of the Country. Every difference ought to be lost in the paramount feeling of anxious interest for the salvation of the State. However Members might differ and criminate each other, and however their divided opinions might lead the Pub lic to suppose that one side or the other acted under impressions different from a sense of duty, he (Mr. Wilberforce) could, from his own experience, attest that-such distinctions were only nominal, as he never was acquainted with a Member of either party who had not the interest of his country at heart. After some other remarks to the same purpose, the Honour able. Member concluded amid applause, by exhorting to united exertions for the redemption of the country. Lord STANLEY began by commenting . upon what had fallen from a Learned Judge, on an indict ment arising out of the Manchester transactions, with respect to the evidence given in to the Grand Jury , of which he (Lord Stanley) had been Foreman. He thought that that Learned Judge, who had grown grey in the practice of his profe ss ion, might, - by his legal sagacity, have been able to elicit evidence which a Grand Jury. could not. The Noble Lord animadverted also upon a statement made by a gal lant General (Wilson), with respect to a Bill having been thrown out by that Grand Jury from miscon ception of evidence. He (Lord Stanley) did net know how the gallant General had arrived at his informa tion, he was certain not from any of the Jury, whom he knew to have carefully and conscientiously dis charged their duty,. Their regard for their oaths could not be questioned ; he knew them personally, and knew that no chance opinion affected their deci sion. He begged to state why he had supported the Amendment :—it was not because there was any part of the Address in which he could not concur, but because he did not think it went far enough. As to restrictive measures, he was confident there was no one more willing than he was to strengthen the law by new powers, when its ordinary ones were not suf ficient to put down crimes against society—such as atheisra, blasphemy, and sedition, which, in his own County, had been rising to a height that touched the very borders of rebellion !—( Hear, hear ! front the Ministerial Benches). But he could not think it right that a Minister should advise the Sovereign to pass over the recent unhappy event at Manchester as if it were no more than an every-day occurrence, like those ordinary quarrels which happen at a wake or fair, and which end in a few broken heads, and some slight confinement. As to the legality or ille gality of the Meeting, he had consid erable doubts.— There had been many falsehoods propagated on both sides. The conduct of the Yeomanry had been much condemned ; but there were facts imputed to them to which lie could give a perfect deni , It was said that their swords had been sharpened for the attack upon the Reformers, but the fact was very different; the Yeomanry was not eekeld corps; it was commanded by Capta in Burley, Ago, if there was blame to be imputed to any one on account of the swords havitig , been .sharpened, was w illin g t o take it a - 111 on himseif: It appeared that that Gentle man was one day examining the pistols of the corps • +ea.* I, upon drill. when a sabre was drawn to screw a.flint t he saw the sabre was not serviceable, as was found to he the case with all the rest ; he therefore ordered both pistols and sabres to be taken to a gunsmith's, for the purpose of being cleaned and repaired. This was taken notice of in the " Manchester Observer," , on the 10th . of July, five weeks before the day of i Meeting, and three days before the Military were i ordered to assist the_ Civil -Power—(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial Benches ).---The _ Noble Lord then proceeded to refute some of the statements with. respect to the conduct of the Yeomanry, on the cre dit of a letter from Captain Burley. It appeared by that testimony, that the Yeomanry had been sepa rated fibril the other force by accident, and when the Militia) , were ordered to assist the Civil Power, that corps, seeing an opening in the crowd along the line of Special Constables, and which, from the movement among the multitude, it appeared would be soon closed, advanced six a-breast ; but the ;people pressing in upon them, those after the first rank were obliged to go in single files, to avoid riding over the persons who thronged about them. They were accompanied towards the hustings by some of the chief Civil Officers, but the line of Special Co tables was broken by the crowd.— Some of the Yeomen pushed along in the track of the officers, and surrounded the hustings. There then arose considerable confusion and a great struggle, but . the persons who offered violence having been taken into custody, the constables rushed to get pos session of the caps of liberty and flags, and for that purpose some of the Yeomanry endeavoured to cia them from the poles. In doing so (said the Nob!t Lord) they might possibly have injured some indivi duals ; but it was false that, as has been stated, there was an indiscrimate cutting to the right ane left!—(Hear ! from the Ministry).—ln fact, there was resistance, and a stone was thrown, and it was when this was scert . by the Magistrates, that they gay , authority to Captain Burley and his friends to act, and the nature of that resistance may be guessed at, when Colonel L'Estrange called out, " For GOD'S sake, save the Yeomanry r It was also incor rect to say, that were was no avenue .by which the Meeting could disperse, but by that through whirl . the Cavalry' advanced. Peter-street, a large and open street was open to them, and there was no Cavalr coming that way. There were also many mire streets open to them, as well as bye-lanes. Ravin) thus stated some facts, he would refrain from givir an opinion upon them, because he was as yet la partially informed of the whole. A general inquil was very desirable. The Noble Lord opposite, . added, had made a statement of facts which were known to none but himself, and which therefore ' could not take for granted. He thought it due . the Magist: ates themselves to set an inquiry on foot, for he had too high an opinion of them to think they would have taken the steps they did, if the Meeting had not been illegal. He would prefer the Courts of Law for proceeding in, and he agreed entirely with those who say that they are the most proper places, because no other than parole evidence can' received at the Bar of this House. The example .. Coventry had been pointed out, because in that case a rule for a criminal information had been gran ted in the Kin's Bench. But this was not precisely the same, for in that case no lives were lost, and a was very doubtful if the Court of King's Bench wouli attend to an application for a criminal informal where a charge of felony was likely to arise. ( thing, however, was certain, that the call for inqA was general from all parts of the country ; and it the duty of the Hous'e, by taking early and vigor steps, to re-assure the people, and inspire them a confidence that any violation of their rights was . overlooked, and that the Magistrates, if they acted wrong, would not be protected from public exposur Mr. PHILLIPS, in explanation of what had fi ' from him in the former debate, said he had not slightest intention to cast any imputation on the mane feelings of the Manchester Magistrates, whose private characters he had the highest respect. Lord CASTLEREAGH, after disclaiming all tention of following the Noble Lord who had j sat down, in the detail of the circumstances of Meeting, congratulated the House for having from a source net likely to be prejudiced in f of Ministers, an affirmation of the statements aimed , made by Ministers--(Hear). He commended' Noble Lord for that high sense of public duty prompted him to disclose those facts; and he tr. 'st would have the effect of throwing back upon ealumeiators that odium, which they had endeavf to fix upon the Magistrates of Manchester-4 He then reviewed a very few of the facts, and merited upon the character given them by the ' Lord ; from which he was at liberty to assert, the Yeomanry did not interfere until the cons were unable to execute their warrant. In doing they acted with all possible mildness: and Cal Burley himself endeavoured to extricate a w, from a situation which her sea ought to have avoi, The People again became aggressors, and when' bad separated one column of the Yeomanry from main body, they attacked that. The Noble he added, had dissipated another illusion regarding the streets being all closed up, except that by which .the Cavalry came. That was manifestly false, f (Lord Castlereagh) had it from one of the Magistrates, having particularly asked him the question, that Cavalry were drawn from the other side of the r purposely to make way for the People to disperse.-- He thought the misrepresentation of this fact - criminal, as it could have no other object alarm the loyal people in that neighbourhood. truth was, the people were in no disposition perse, and so great was the peril of the Yeomanry that the Magistrates, who were witnesses to ' obliged to call in a supporting force. He the country would soon see the real nature proceedings at that Meeting; and he would more ask the House what there was unconsti' in ordering assistance to the Yeomanry in the ous situation in which they were? He was , inclined to - make some allowance for the col, rven these facts from prejudice , an d this made ook to the impression, which residing the ' -hi Parliament, particularly the. Noble Lord's this night, would have on the public mind, with pleasure. That, Noble Lord did not stand in . situation with regard - to the country, as Ministers 'tow,arids whom there was, mort or less, jealous , 'his statement should.therefore have the more Justice was now at length likely to be done -I 1 , . i 1 • ; ' Magistrates, who had been, all through, treated e: I very uncandidly. Why were not these Gentlemen 1 " 1 I entitled to the presumption which every one claims ,: by the English law,-that they were innocent stitiL s , they were found to be guilty ? All he claimed iar i them from the House, was a suspension of judgmeist f • until there was evidence to convict them. It wictwli& hb I i ` s then appear how unfairly they had been dealt wit • . , and that the motives which induced these Magis- I • trates, under circumstances of great difficulty, to pat I _themselves forward, solely for the safety of the coon- t' - try, and the preservation of the peace, had been r most invidiously misrepresented.—(Heor I) 0 ; - Lord STANLEY, in explanation, said, he appre- • . - I r hended the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) had used Iris , ' , statement rather freel y--( Hear 1)—So far as he had e ventured to give an opinion, it was true the view he ‘ e took was in a great measure the same as the Noble i Lord's. But when he came to speak of the conduct . e of the Yeomanry Cavalry, upon which he gave no • . I i ..i . i a opinion at all, he asserted then, and repeated now, d that he only read the statement of a person who was - i. a Yeoman himself. Wear !)--Hc had, indeed, arddedi . y that the individual was known to him, that he' • _ i of had a great respect for him, and that he entirely be- - lieved all he said. At the same time, he wished the . e Noble Lord, to understand, that he did not mean to n identify himself with that individual, as the narrator e, of the facts—( Hear). n Lord CASTLEREAGH gave the Noble Lord r ! s- credit for the caution and candour with which he it had conducted himself all through. He observed , i it that no one who was not an eye-witness could pledge ' • i le himself to any opinion, he could only reason from 1 , 1 i- facts afforded by others. d, Mr. J. P. GRANT said he would reserve himself i I id to give an opinion on a future occasion, but he could i i 1 as not help saying, that it was for the interests of the , en Magistrates to have an inquiry as soon as possible, , i i ve and so.acquit themselves of the presumption, which 1. :t, now lay against them, of being guilty. The Noble ed Lord opposite had himself furnished an argument . 'or for inquiry, when he said, that all his reasoning liked !,, sr- upon hearsay. Now there was great difference of . ; . he opinion upon facts which formed the premises of this i ch reasoning, and which made an inquiry snore desirable. I len He would however vote for the Address , thou g h at . i lry the same time not pledging himself to take any course r • ) i or upon the measures which were to be proposed. • 1 • in Lord CASTLEREAGH said, the statement did ing not rest on the authority of the Noble Lord (Stanley), 1 ' but however high, but on the authority of an Honourable • t 1 iiry Member connected with that quarter. he Mr. BENNET said, three testimonies had been 'ere given in favour of the character of Captain Burley— . . he his character had not been called in question. Ile 1 1 4 ' to did not believe it had ever been called in question at oot, Manchester, and he was certain it had never been - hey called in question in that House; and he should wish 1 I ' • ting to know, therefore, whether any Gentleman could ' urts say he had heard it questioned? He wished to make I • rely another observation. The statement of• his Noble . i oper Friend (Lord Stanley) rested entirely en the state. A 1 ,‘ I a' be ment of Captain Burley himself--(1/ear, hear, hear). - t l' i 1 le of It might be true, and it might n d t be true. Other i i „ that statements had been made by a nu mber of individuals i , ;ran- on oath, on the Coroner's Inquest, of a nature alto- isely gether contrary to it. These statements might be 1 t 1 td it true, or they might be false: They were, thereforei • , : ould called on to.inquire which of these statements wer e ation true—the statements of the Magistrates and Yeo- i 1 , ', at One manry, or the statements directly contradictory of iuiry them on oath ? . - i 1 9 , . t was Mr. B. BATHURST adverted to the great import- Drous ante which the attestation of Captain Burley , who i i with was an eye-witness to the transactions at Manchester, is not possessed. It was, he contended, a complete justifi- „ , r . acted cation of the Magistrates, as it proved that they had .1 asure. not called in the Military until it was seen the Con; , . k fallen stables were unable to execute the warrant. The ' .' >t the People were determined to throw every obstacle in I* to hu- their way, for they now crowded in great numbers , s, for about the hustings, so as completely t o s h ut out all -I , ipect, approach to them. The hustings had also been re- .. , 4 all in- moved from the place in which they originally stood. ii • ,1 1, d just Under these circumstances, the Magistrates felt they .• , , of the had a duty to perform to the loy al P eo p le of M an-- : i _ • now, chester, who were the majority ; and it was very un- favour just to arraign the manner in which they did"that, as . 1 lready they could possibly have no other object in view but, ;• d that the public interest.•He had said th e l o y al inhabitants' . which were the majority , and the fact pr oved it : for when 'i t i - trusted the Meeting was dispersed, so great was the indigna- • on the tion shewn by the people, that if it had not been for ' I voured the interference of the Yeomanry , the prisoners would '' jlear). haie beet badly treated. He trusted this view of the d corn- case would soon become general, and that the time i I Noble was not far off when the Magistrates would be 1, that rescued from the imputations now cast upon them istables a--( Cries of Question, Question 0 1 ; 0 ng this, Mr. BARING, without discrediting the evidence captain adduced by the Noble Lord (Stanley), was inclined to \ 1 woman look upon it as• a little suspicious, coming as it-did, moided. from one who was a party himself. The facts, how- en they ever, which that statement disclosed, as they gave a , ; rom the new reading to the affair of the 16th August, were • . e Lord, of themselves arguments for an inquiry. Inqtrilj, gardiirg seemed to be the desideratum of all parties; it warthe ' . , ' r y which object of all Public Meetings; and even at that of e, for he Yorkshire, the people said they would petition for it. : i ;istrates, If any thing mole than anot h er c ould shew the neces- , , ) that the sity of inquiry, it was this feeling, which was so ge- square, neral throughout the country. There was already a .• j i perse.— prima facie case made out, and how was it to be anb • I! 1 act very twered, unless by an inquiry through the House? than to He observed, that it would be very desirable for the d. The parties themselves to get rid of the presumption t to dis- against them, which was now so strong. It was plain oroanry, they had notice the day before that the Meeting it, were would be illegal, and yet when they saw large bodies , .. t trusted of men coming into the town with banners, early in 4 ' 1 i •e of the the morning , they took no pains to disperse them, . • old once but waited until several thousands - were assembled, I titutional and it was then very difficult to disperse them.— ' 4 , the peril- If th i s was suffered to isss over, it might have the , - • 1 . is always worst effect in the Manufacturing Dittricts, where a t ; colouring confidence in the st abilit y of t hin g s could alone in- 1 ;; nade him duce men to embark their capitals in trade. It would e Debates be bard to say to mhat.extent an inquiry should go; l's speech, indeed -the principal object would be, to ascertain , with some whether there was any interference by Government i 1 the same with the Magistrates or the Coroner, whohad, with- sisters did, out any cause, adjourned the Inquest for slit Weeks ?, , - 1 1 ousy ; and 'the circumstanc e of one. M a gistrate-refusi ng to take re weight. information because he was a party, and another re- . 01l one to the Nibs because his neighbour was concerned, made a • „' - s , • .1 4 . . 1 r'