Star. — London, England, 1811-05-14 00:00:00

rP , • PAR LIAMENI'AR r PIi()CEEDINGS. ' I. HOUSE OF LORDS, MAY 13. BERK VI. EY PEERAGE. Their Lordships flier this day a little after two o'clock. perm ant to adjournment, and proceeded immed.arekiig hear further the case of the Berkeley Peerage. Witnel.os %mike:ambled at ti'at bar, and a variety of argurnenti were advancet4n opposition to, and in the support of certain evidence which wild tendered.— The Judges were referred to, aid those Learned Persons gave their opinions instanter, the.tisajority being against ; he admission of the evidence to tmdered and so objected to. Sir J ames Mans , geld, Lord Chief Justice of the Common ?leas, was examined as witness respecting circumstances relating to the late Earl of ; but his Lordship's resiimony, in consequence if the distance of tinte that had elapsed since these eve. its took place, concerning which hr was interrogated, being so long, was such that nothing material arose theretrons. Tbel.ORD ChANCaLIOII, 1.0rd9 eoestioit, 1011.1 STAN HOPE, and al oth.v Peers spoke, and the further consideration of this case was appointed for Wednesday next. LOUD cLoNcurt me% DIVORCE BILL. The consideration of this Bill being briefly resumed, leave was given on the motion of the. Earl of LIM ER icx, for the introduc tion of the Noble Petitioner, Lord Clone urry, into the House, for the purpose of purring a question to his Lordship respecting the subject of his Bill. Lord Cloncurry was then crodectell by the Earl of Liu CRICK Into the body of the House, sworn at the table, and then sat on a chaff near it A question dictated by the Earl of Llair RICK was put to him, to know hi. Lordship's reason For allowing Lady C. to remain at his House after making a discovery of her conduct ? The Noble Lord's answer was delivered in such a faint and feeble tone, as to - be absolutely inaudible below the bar. Lord clooturry then bowed twice to their Lordships, and retired. The fibber consideration of the above Bill, as well as that for Loved's'. Divorce, was adjourned till Wednesday. MISCELLANIOUL The Irish Servants' Embezzlement Bill, the Parish Appren tiers Bill, the Bank et Ireland Security Bilyand some local and private Bills were brought up from the CosaMons, and read Brat time. Lord SIDMOUTH fixed the second rending of the Dissenting Preachers Bill for Friday next. The House to be summoned for that day ; with an understanding, that if then read a second time, It would be committed for the Tuesday following. The vexatious Arrests alt was read a third time. and passed. On the suggestion of the Earl of LAUDERDALE, who stated' the great importance of the Bill, and the necessity there was for giving it vet y serious consideration, the order on the Custom Fees and Regulation Bill was discharged and the Bill ordered to be printed. On the motion of Lord HOLLAND, the second reading of the lee Criminal Law Bills was postponed till Friday se'nnight. Adjourned till to-morrow (this day). HOUSE OF COMMONS. ;with applying very strong terms to the Report of All Bullion Committee. He certainly had not intended in any thing he had said to throw the least insinuation against the motives of the Members .f the Committee, who had as much interest as he could have in the pros• perity of the country ; but although he was convinced Oat they had conscientiously discharged their duty, yet he still considered the report as likely to do infi nite mischief. This had been his opinion ever since the Report was published, and it was also the opinion of one of the most -intelligent merchants on the Con tinent, with whom he corresponded on the subject.— He thought it would be most idle to propose simply that the Bank should resume its cash payments, with out, at the same time, bringing forward measures for amending the present laws with respect to the expor tation of coin. —lf even any laws were able en tirely to prevent tke exportation of specie, the only effect of the change would be to give a more cum bersome currency instead of one that is less so.— In reviewing the debates which had already taken place upon this subject, he could not help remarking ' some very extraordinary omissions. —lt was very extraordinary that neither the Committee, nor those' who supported their opinions, had taken the subject of practicability at; all into their consideration; and yet it appeared by the evidence both of the Governor and the Deputy Governor, that to force the Bank to resume cash payments, would bea measure which would in all probability be productive of general ruin. Tha• re port of the Committee in this respect was founded .%) the theory of the Members, and not on the evidence before them. The Learned and Honourable Gen- tleman, (Mr. Horner) who brought forward this question, had, in a speech of as much el,,quence, ar gument, and information as ever he heard in that House, stated, that in his opinion, the passing such a resolution as he recommended, could do no harm, as Parliament might within the interval of two years adopt whatever measure circumstances might then require. What? was it doing no harm to adept a mea sure which the Governor and Deputy Governor of the Bank thought must be _productive of general bank ruptcy, and the ruin of the commercial world ? Was there no harm in putting it upon the Journals of that House that the Bank paper was depreciated, and that without suggesting any remedy? In the comparison of the Bank of England with that of France, it had been said, that when thilatter was in embarrassments, it made great sacrifices to pirchase bullion. And had the Bank of England made no sacrifices of that sort? The Bank, he believed, had never refused to buy gold at 4 pounds, or even guineas an ounce,. at a time that the Mint price was but e 3.175. Many who allowed the impracticability of paying in specie, thought that the Bank should be obliged to diminish its issues. Tnis. however, had been tried at different times, but the con sequences of it were serious inconveniences to trade, and that the loans were made on extravagant premiums., Would not the adoption of such a step as had been re commended, immediately shake public confidence in the security of the Bank, and, diminish the facilities of, ,exporting our produce? The members of the Bul lion Committee seemed to think they had as complete, a controul over exchanges and currencies, as al certain mad philosopher, mentioned in Rasselal, 'conceived he had over the seas. He then proct.sdded 'to:examine the statement in a resolution of Mr. Hor ner's with respect to the exchanges. So far from the exchanges never being so unfavourable unless with a depreciated currency, the changes in the year 1710, 1711, and 1712, were always from nine to thirteest per cent. against this country. In the year 1695 and 1696, the exchanges were 20 per cent. against the ,country, and at that time the Bank were allowed I St for taking up the clipped and worn-out coin upon the new coinage taking place. The new coinage at that time did not materially alter the rate of exchange. In the American war a very considerable quantity of guineas had been sent to that country, but they re turned again when the exchanges came to be in oar favour. After a few observations on the amend ments which he understood were to be moved to the proposition which he had to submit to the House, he proceeded to state the nature of those propositions. His first was, that the right of regulating the money the country had been at all times a royal preroga ive. A good deal had been said about a axed van , rd. Now as to the Mint standard of guineas, that as fixed and known ; but as to the general proposi on, that the standard for referring the price of every thing must nnessarily be fixed, that it must be a vi sible and a tangible thing, he would say that no such standard either existed in this country, or, as he be lieved, in any other. Until the year 1776, there was no standard for the gold coin, nor was there ever any fixed standard for the silver coin. When silver was I 'the general currency of the country, the largest pay- mem. might be mule in sixpences; and now pay ments under A'2s r. ,ght be made in silver coin with out any reference to their weight. He thought that the authority of Lord Liverpool went, in this instance, ' against the arguments of those who referred to him ; and as to the authority of Sir I. Newton, that gentle man did, in, the year 1713, positively recommend the change of the standard, or what was tantamount to that, the increase of the rate at which the coin was to pass. In his third resolution, he affirmed, that the promissory notes of the Bank of England had' been hitherto and still were held equivalent to the legal coin of the realm. He knew that Gentlemen on the other side would say, that they had been de preciated. Now he wished to know what sort of de preciation they meant ; whether a depreciation of the whole currency on account of over-issue, or a depre ciation of the Bank-notes inconsequence of discredit ? He did not believe there was any Gentleman in that House who would maintain that the Bank-notes had sisffered any thing of that sort of depreciation, arising from discredit, although it had been said that they were not of the same value as cash. And yet, if a fo reigner, having credit' in this country by a bill of ex change, wished to send back the value of it to his own country, there was no doubt but that he could get the whole nominal value of the Bank note in exchange, for any article of British produce which he wished to export. If, then, the holder could always get the full value for his note, he could not conceive how it could be said to be depreciated from discredit. It had been stated, that the exchanges were against us with every . ) other country ; and that this was a proof, that it could only be caused by something in our currency. He thought he was warranted in denying the fact. There was a country, and a very commercial and rich one, between which and.this country the exchanges were, as be understood, favourable to us. The country lts Mr. SHAW, of Dublin, moved the third reading of the Irish Servants' Embezzlement Bill, which was read a third time, passed, and ordered to the Lords. The Cinque Ports Justice, the Parish Apprentice Indenture, and the Southern Whale Fishery Bills, were severally read a third time, and passed. The Irish Volunteers Militia Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed for to-morrow. The further consideration of the Report of the Grand Junction Canal Bill was postponed to Thursday. Tips: Committee of Supply was postponed to Wednesday. Mr. LUSHINGTON brought up the Report of the Four Mil lions Annuity Bill, which was received, and the Bin ordered to be read a third time to-morrow, and then engrosed. Mr. LUSHINGTONbrought up the Reports of the Commit tees of Supply, and Ways and Means—agreed to. The Report of the Inland Coal Navigation Bill was brought up, and the bill ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. Mr. WELLESLEY POLE gave notice that he would, on '1 Mayday next. move for leave to bring in a bill to regulate the appointment of Commissioners to superintend Public schools in Ireland. Mr. ROSE brought in the Copper's Duty Bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time to-Morrow. Mr. ROSE obtained leave to bring in a bill to, authorise die Officers of the Customs to officiate for the Superintendent of Qua rantines and his Assistants. The Distillers Indemnity Bill passed through the Committee, and the Report was ordered to be received tu-morrow. Mr. DUNDAS postponed his motion, respecting the Board of Controul, to Friday. . EAST INDIA COMPANY. Mr.DUNDAS moved the Order of the Day, for the House 11 1 going into a Committee nn petitions of the East India Company. I Lord FOLKESTONE said,that before the Order of the Day was read / he could not help observing upon the unreason able burry which had been betrayed to get over a question which called for so much Inquiry. The petition bad not been presented before Friday last, and 11 was impossible that between that and this it could • have been in the hands of the Members, so as to possess them of all the necemary information. He thought, too, that even were Gem!ernes fully acquainted with the object and statethent of that petition,it was not right to call upon them to decide upon its merits we they had been tarnished with the • Report of the Committee sitting above stairs Upon the affairs of the East India Company. Mr. DUNDAS stated, that the Petition from the East India Company had been presented on Friday last, and that the usual course had been, when in former Sessions Peti.lons of a similar stature had been presented, to take the Petition into considera tion on the following day. In the preent we, however, there was yet a longer interval. With respect to the Committee u stairs, he could not see why it was necessary to wait fort r Report, in order to decide on the merits of a Petition, respecting which every necessary information was to be foun d the Re ports already before the House. Mr. CREEVEY denied that the House was furnished with full information to enable them to come to a proper decision upon the Petition. If the Right Honourable Gentleman would not consent to postpone it, he should move that the Committee of the whole House upon said Petition he fixed for Friday nett. Mr. DUNDAS agreed to postpone the Committee till Wed nesday, but could not consent to a later day. After a few words from Messrs. Whitbread and Wallace, Dad Folkestone, and Mr. Crete it was agreed that the House should resolve itself into the Committee, to take into consideration the said Petition of the Bast Indi a Company en Wednesday nest. Mr. HUTCHINSON rose for the purpose of once more post poning his motion that stood for tomorrow, respecting the dis tribution of our Military Force. The House would do him the justice to recollect, that the postponements which had hitherto taken place were net imputable to him. The long debates on the Bullion Report deringlast week, rendered it difficult, if not impossible, to procure for any other topic, 10,wever important, an adequate discussion ; and the continuation of th^t discussion for perhaps the greater part of this week, together with the hU sinen fixed for rash day, left him no open day till the 22d, when be should bring forwat d his motion. TIIE KING'S ILLNESS. Mr. WHITBREAD rose to put a question to the Right Ho tamable the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He wished to know f rom eho Right Honourable Gentleman if it was in his contem platincito stat•tnit to the House, before the termination of the present Sessions, any measure for the purpose of providing against the recurrence.of a suspension of the Royal Functions in consequence of the King's Illness The CHANCELUOR of the EXCHEQUER in the negative. Mr. WHITBREAD then gave notice that lie should, on Tleiesvglay;the 50th of May,, move, that the propriety of making inch provision be taken then Into consideration by a Committee of the whole House. BULLION COMMITTEE. The House having gone into a Committee, to con sider the report of the Bullion Committee, Mr VANSITTART began by stating, that it was I Absolutely impossible for him to have prepared the re-1 solutions which he had now to propose, and which he had already communicated, sonnet than he had done. It was on a Tuesday that he fir st heard the proposi tioni of his Honourable and Learned Friend (Mr. Horner), and on Friday he communicated to the House the resolutions which he intended to propose in the way of amendments. He had been charged • alluded t was India, and notwithstandiul erg _ eece. _ stance which had been given the other night, of 20 duated, which. in the technical language of the Mine per cent. having been paid as the exchange for a bill ! was called a rem*. There was another allow ance f o r from Calcutta upon London, he must state, that for wearing. This was nearly one per cent. The law, the last four years the exchange between Bengal and whether wisely or not, forbid the exportation of o er this country was in our favour by about 12 per cent. coin, and this lowered its value about three thilangeen at an average, which is now the rate of exchange; so the ounce. But thoegh the laws proliihitettaa - aepo r s a that it appears there is at least one nation who have no they were never abheostrprerent-it, 'or & pi l a w objection to send us their bullion for our paper, and to above £4. Is. an ounce. The diffpawnewisetween ta:e pay a premium besides for it. In the year 1797, there Mint price, ita Tier a oactamadoCiele. teacthelelehof was a general meeting and association of merchants variation, while thellebicalefease emi t ete a ss i saa n and tradesmen to uphold the credit of the Bank, and cash paymentrstoppedi the• bullion rose even ate ni g h the persons then assembled pledged themselves to take es £4. 14s. an ounce. a 'llia wholsestaitteecebeing their notes as cash. He had no doubt but if such a %Out this country, ior iliseltste fins to es, arid being thing should be again necessary, the merchants would the efrt of the Blatt ititrictipti:;:-‘9l4i im.• again come forward with the same sairit they had done pede the bullion price taViabieweeaDanauseliaiaatalkiii before. It appeared to him, however, that the House any stride it pleasedvantilloing. apt° th 6 f or aik. should give some pledge which would carry great' ounce? The bilante of neat had.beeta erronemuly, weight and authority. He should pass over all his taken ley rnanyspeakerainthi4lehatedrihe solec.aese intermediate resolutions, and come at once to the con. of the price of bullion, *4 tit* aaidaity of Mr. Loc k e chiding one. He conceived it utterly inexpedient to had been adduced in support clatheldeaa bat die eatule affix any definite time for the resumption of cash pay- passage should-have beerequotedavfn Locke distinctly ments. He might then be asked, had he nothing to fined two causes."Oue of the rinser," said diatdistin. suggest ? If the case was- purely a commercial one, guished person, thstairitiake our gold abroad is an he thought the exchanges might be left to find their unfavourable balasuae efteidleaThere is another cause. own level. The question was, however, more a pa. and that is,when one pareagthecurrencyis much worse litical than a commercial one. We were engaged than the other, and then theibest will be sent abroad." in a most expensive war, and yet who would recorn- Yet even this opinion was inaccurate and loosely eon. mend the withdrawing our armies from the Conti- ceived. Our ancestors 'hewed a • great fondness for neat ? The expence which we incurred by support- bullion, and considered trade not profitable unless it ing them there might be considered as the price of brought back bullion. On the same erroneous prin. our glory and the probable deliverance of Europe.— ciple it was supposed that bullion paid the balances He must, however, express a most anxious wish that of trade. This, however, he denied : bullion formed every possible measure of conciliation should be used an article of trade, but did not serve to pay its balance. towards America, without giving up any thing that j Not only the Bank Directors, but taw RightHonour. was our right. In speaking, however, of the maritime I able Gentleman (Mr. Rose) and even the Honourable rights of this country, there were many persons who 1 Member who had just sat down, supposed that there talked as if this nation had some rights upon the sea ! was no mode of paying this balance but by bullion. 'that other nations had not. He entirely disclaimed except by an increase of commodities, and according any pretension to exclusive rights, and would wish to them that increase was only to be promoted by as I that the country would confine itself to the acknow. increase of paper. When he first began to reflect upon !edged rights and established practice of all other , this subject, he fell into the mistakes which other maritime countries. There were other considerations ; Gentlemen seemed now to make. But upon a more which he might suggest of a more subordinate na. mature consideration, he became sensible that there cure. He thought it might be possible, by some ar- ought to be a limit to the issue of paper, though he rangement with Spain, to bring from Mexico some was always of opinion that great caution should be more bullion, of which a part would certainly find its I employed in not restricting the issues so as to inter way to this market. He believed, also, that it would I . ru.pt the productive exertions of industry. It had be in the power of the Treasury to do mach by re- ! been said that there was no excess of paper, because gulating the importation from other countries, and the issue had been augmented since 1797 only from taking care that it should not far exceed the exports. £10,700,000 tb £14,500,000. This, though a large After declaring that he was not in the least actuated increase, would'not appear tobe an excessive issue; but by party views, he concluded by moving his first re- whenitwasconsideredwhatprinciplesofeconomyinthe solution. use of notes had been acted( upon ofiate, as well as the in. Mr. MAGENS was of opinion, that the present en- crease of country notes which hadelbowedout the Bank quiry was of the highest importance to the country. of England paper, and also that neither bankers nor The subject had been started and discussed in a man- individuals now kept as large a stock of bank paper net which placed its merits in the truest point of view, as heretofore by them, it may well be doubted whe and by thus enabling the country to judge for itself, tber this issue was not excessive. The great princi gave the fairest chance of coming finally to the most ; ple the Bullion Comanittee contended for, was, that satisfactory decision. If the mind of the.eountry was Iquantity influenced price, and affected the exchanges. once brought fully to the discussion, the result of ' It did so with respect to coin, and why should it not the question, in whatever way it might turn, must do so with respect to paper, which exactly represented be highly advantageous : and there -was still in Eng. coin ? ThiConamtutee had recommended two met lish trade much to excite, and to console, and to oc. sures—one to fix a time certain and definite for opal cupy the national mind. Its losses had been severe, Mg the Bank—the secrina to limit the issues of bank but let them be compared with the effects of the.despe. , paper. In the case of the Bank of Paris the issues had rate system which had been devised and put in action been reduced from 90 to 64 millions of francs,. within for its ruin, and there would be much cause for con- three months, and then cash payments were resumed. gratulation. The, commerce of France was. ruined. It was his opinion, that by a moderate reduction of The commerce of the subject countries was at the its issues, the Bank might provide the means of meet. lowest ebb ; and the little that was left was sus. ing all the consequences of opening for cash payments tained by the sufferance of England. {Hear!) within a limited period. He wished Gentlemen, more The Honourable Member then adverted to the competent than himself, to attend to the law of the question of the currency. Silver had formerly been case, as they could not tell how soon they might have the standard ; but since 1710, gold had taken its two prices. He objected particularly to the first re place ; a guinea had previously passed for 20s. The solution of the Right Hon. Gentleman, because it country certainly suffered a considerable loss by the appeared to lay in a claim on behalf of the King to change. for the guinea was now exalted into twenty- rednce the coin of the realm. one shillings. In 177 a, in consequence of Lord Li- Mr: CANNING shoal , ' not have thought it neces verpooPs enquiries, the standard was made more ac- nary to fellow his Hon. Friend in the able and lucid curate, and the guinea fixed at its present value de- speech which had just closed, if he had not determi. cidedly. The notes of the Bank of England were mere- ned to address what he had to say to the immediate ly meant for internal accommodation, and when they question under consideration. The resolutions which were made non-convertible they assumed a form which were then under consideration were not only different had never entered into the idea of the original inven. in principle, hut opposite in fact to those which the tors. They were in this shape an anomalous circula- House had in the recent instance disposed of. Those tiun, and nothing could be more obvious than that who had agreed in the principles of the former reso they were depreciated. He could not approve of the lutions, but could not accede to the conclusions of third resolution for those reasons. He agreed in the the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who proposed 16th resolution, that it was highly important to re. them, would, he was persuaded, feel themselves bound surne the cash payments when the circumstances of to vote against the present propositions. The fact of the country allowed it ; and not one of the Bullion depreciation was admitted by persons wh3 did not Committee wished to see them resumed before that think it necessary to assert it by a Parliamentary de time : but he wished that the final resolution was :no- claration. The question that night was not, whether dified, so far at least, as to express the intention of the restriction should be repealed ? bet, as a resolution Parliament to take up the business as soon as matters to that effect had been disposed of, whether the House would allow of its being done with advantage, and not of Commons would go a step farther, and announce to put it off indefinitely to sii months after a peace— the world, that the nfoney system of the country Wits to (Hear.) be founded upon principles such as those contained in Mr. PATTESON went through the history of the the resolution of the Right Honourable Gentleman. exchanges for the last thirty years, for the purpose of lie should contend, that in the proper and manly shewing that the issues of the Bank paper had no con- sense of the word, the suggestions of the Committee nection with the rate of exchange. He attributed the amounted to no innovation, though they recom variations to the balance of trade, and endeavoured to mended a change of the existing system. The re prove that there was for every depression an equiva- solutions of the - Right Hon. Gentleman, oa the con lent cause in some foreign transaction. trail, called upon the House to adopt a new sys- Mr. H. THORNTON regretted obtruding him- tem ; and to unction principles which had never self upon the House, after the discussion which had been acted upon by our ancestors. He was not of already taken place ; but the subject was really ob. opinion that any amendment could correct them, scure. It was really a subject which puzzled Gen. and should therefore propose to negative them. tlemen, and he was not surprised at the doctrines The details he should leave to others more corn which it had produced. He did not wonder at the petent, and confine himself to the resolutions con part which Administration had taken. They were taining . the principles to which he objected. These mutt occupied with other things ; they probably had 1 resolutions were the first, third, and fifteenth. not much time or attention to give to the Report of But the Right Honourable Gentleman had referred the Committee, and it was natural to suppose the !to him respecting a supposed inccinsistency in his alarm with which they must have looked on any thing proposing to vote for the two last of his series of which was likely to derange their present financial resolutions, provided the Committe should agree system. The question was, however, if not very to the eight first of the Honourable and Learned simple, at least very short. It was, whether the ba- Member. The Right Hon. Gentleman had supposed lance of trade or the issue of paper was in fault ? It' he had gained a triumph, and convicted him of an was unnecessarily complicated by wandering abroad 1 inconsistencya But what was that inconsistency ? He in pursuit of the causes which affected the exchange. had proposed to vote for these eight resolutions be- There was one criterion, which was under our eye, cause they were true, not because they came free from and that was die price of bullion. There had been the mouth of this man or of that man, and he should many singular ideas throvin out on the nature of have voted for the two last resolutions of the Right a standard. The true definition of a standard of cur- Hon. Cent. because they flowed consecutively from rency was ,in his mind, a something tangible and visible, the others. It did not, however, follow that he would to which we referred to measure the degrees of depar. now vote for these two resolutions, founded as they tare. That something might have its fluctuations, but were upon premises which he could never be brough t they must be submitted to, and followed. Gold to agree to. Having thus put out of the way the two was our standard. We allowed of cetain deviations last resolutions of the Right Hon. Gentleman, he from the accuracy of the standard, whatever one should next proceed to consider those to which, as we might choose. We did so in gold. The man point of principle, he more particularly objected ; the who sent a pound of gold to the Mint, did not its the third, and the fifteenth. With respect to all the in• . r ice Clic. There Was.* certain allovrance dt. Deb ed it ,