Star. — London, England, 1819-04-08 00:00:00

as atten ded with hardsh i p and cruelt y . Mr. Giles, • inT on board, declared that the utmost con soon. d incubordination had prevailed, and that recil:ic:s and passengers were unnecessarily put o er r allowance of water, which produced much ofe i ng , es recially amongst the childivn.• The r e we evidence on the part of Mr. Marsden, and 0 'inure had before been put in possession of evi w t hat there was a want of accommodation for tet:lnale convicts. A few of them were lodged in i fetory at Paramatta , an d the rest were obliged to erin the streets and to have recourse to prosti io order to procure the means of subsistence. ir.•ery and depravity of these persons. was so thw Mi. Marsden, who had been a consider :inrc in the habit of contemplating them, de ,ta that it required all his fortitude to bear the ri which he had to witness. His object was 'to r!the female convicts from being sent to the fac ,rof para:r.atta ; and he, for one, could not .con that any human being, either man or woman, , 1 1 ,d he sent to New South Wales, till some place gi p r ovided for their reception. He (bat. Bennet) alrody stated the helplessness and the hard) hosof the women on board the ships ; he had gone ett .i:1; them, and lodged them in the factory of parnatta ; and he would- nols• shew what became of •!.. / n, when they had arrived there. Mr. Marsden, letter which he now held in i his hand, said, " The Paramatta is divided into two wards, one : ',•!;;:.e reception of men, and the other for women ; v,tas tilers are no locks on the doors, the men and women have easy access to each other, in conse-, F ace of which the grossest debaucheries take place. remonstrated on these things again and again, la so remedy has yet been provided These regu otts are attended with the worst'effects. What Can 'rune than for a Clergyman coming to visit the • and Ending men and women lyitig promiscu . - "sly in the same beds? ;considerable time back, been either a lamp or ;r,Jle in the hospital, nor can either be procured n:o watch a dying person; and I has c frequently .n obliged to grope my way in ping to visit the .ic eig:::: This letter was dated on the 6th of ;Oyx:, 1813. He abstained from reading other ...r.;:ii:, ik.scause he did not wish to criminate in i ,C.i ta:ls: :nit, on the contrary, was desirous to keep w e : . view all that referred to the conduct of public cai...:. Whether the new system of this year, with textto the regnlations 'on board female convict ii.g, wou:i lie better than that of last year, he ::'al not inquire; but he objected to a system .un isthich, chat tic women arrived at New South fin, they had no place where they could lay their He had shun n what their lamentable situa- 4 under such circumstances; and he thought :srld not fail to excite compassion in the breasts dl •ho rd.ected on it; but at the same time he Howe to remember, that true benevolence consist in lamenting over grievances, but sn mucidg to provide a remedy for them. He ,imxicus to persuade the House, therefore, not tui ur any other female convict ship sail.— sht be said that it was necessary to send men as it woulz: be attended with danger to keep a o; convicts a home ; but this could not be feznal3 convicts. No mats could say that the of tl:2 country depended .on sending females 'ter; could be confined easier than men could- rn.;:it be kept in the jail; est' the respective c, wine of which wire well adapted for them, they could work themselves out by their good am. Re did not believe that among the female ::::cts ti.ere was any considerable number so radi :y bad, as to render it necessary to send them out :1C country. This he knew, that cif the women Ant out, a great portioa weretrauspmted for )..1.-$ onl:, and a great majority of them• were !owl. fic ~o uld ask the House, therefore, er thee would continue to subje c t any propor , hantver small, of the female youth of this r -try a system, the end of which Was vice, sin, w, and latterly death !—(//eardseen)'—ile con. I eith moving an Address to his Royal High the Prince Regent, praying that his Royal would be graciously pleased to stay the if a vessel destined to convey Female Convicts Smah Wales. FORCE, hi seconding the motion, he WaS anxious to say a few words, as he should 14 Le able to proJuce a ;, , ,ener::l disposition to cc in the motion. For though the Honourable M:7•7 was deservinl of the highest. credit for his 'r.ionto the interests of humanity, and for the in zees which he had obtained in the present case, not but think it was not necessary to agree Parts of his speech, in order to agree with his *.zsias. The 11 , ,tise was now engaged in an in • the state of the Colony of New South especially as to the state of the Female .:31,v tinder these circumstances, it was that the Howe should decide finally 4•'.y a;,.ainst se n di ng f ema l es t hi t h er , i n jll.l to the motion. There might be a !,;.!ounst for hoping that remedies might :um:lves, to put an end to the abuses winch :wring the passages and in the Colony, this iove,tigation was going on, was it too a.ty the passage of one ship, to see whether 13t be effected? Certainly the superin the vessel in question, was a person whose was in the highest degree honourable, and be no doubt but that the greatest atten be paid by him to the unfortunate beings : ate. But when the system was, as it had !a to be, fundamentally bad, it was tog :ic e it to de, end upon the character of a .:d .al t and when not only the enormities' but the state of the factory at Para the wretched hospital, was taken into 0 3jections to the sending out females at 111,l not be found to be removed. The cf:he motion would be to stop the vessel • '• which would enable the House to •• : ultimately be done. In the present , ;lony, every fresh addition to the num , ' . •7%,1, while there was no increase of ac ;'•'•'!:1, must add to the misery and vice of %Lre at present there, besides plunging the k i t n , one wretched state. As to the the f l , Naourable Mover had referred, should •Azte that they were written a et..nil:44y of ivate friendship, with the a'r 'A:nt to the Commiunn ; but from 't how little dependence was to •be pieced for skskinattegement, except on a system ' of regelations secured against infractions, as those exertions by which it was thought abuses would be prevented were found itieffectnal, He trbsted, there' fore, the HouseNieuld nottonsetit, without necessity, do kehd Off these - poor'ereatures, lest they shouldgive rise to an idea that they were not so disposed to'check • abuses as he hoped they actually were. Mr. BATHURST said, that before he etantined I the Speech of the Honourable Mover, he should al lude to the argument of his Honourable Friend (Mr. Wilberforce), who had argued that no ferfrale con. riots should be sent off until the Report of the Com. i mittee was made o and, 'he supposed, till some regula tion was founded upon it. Now, if this argument were followed out consistently, it would go much be fond the mien motion, as it would apply not to I one Vessel, but to all convicts, male or female. But I then it was argued by the Honoura*Mover, that it was difficult to keep men, but that !alleles might be kept with great convenience —(4 laugh). lie did not mean to treat the subject with jocularity, he' meant that there would be comparative •facility in finding accommodation• for females in the prisons. This he should prove was not the case, and he should show that unless there were much -greater inconvea niencies in the. present - system than had been shewn to have resulted from it, the law of the land, as it re lated to the transportation of felons, could noewisely he suspended. It was notorious the gaols in all parts of the country were crowded, before the Assizes with prisoners for trial, and after the Assizes. with pri soners under sentences of various kinds. In the best regulated prisons, the excess of criniinals was so great, that the usual means of classification and separation could not be resorted to, and.the increase of crimes was truly said to be the consequence. It was there fore not a matterof indifference whether the convicts should be transported or remain. The most urgent demands were made to the Executive Government, for the removal of convicts from 21L:pans of the, country, and complaints were heard -thas: these .de.. mands were not , speedily enough attended .to.— It was especially for the removal of-the females, that demands were made. Of these, there had been 180 in various parts of the kingdom, • Of these, 40 or 50 were advanced in life too far to be transported with propriety ; another. class of , about the same. number was composedof persons, who from theinage or other circumstances, seemed to afford a prospect of refor mation. _These too—were. detained, and he bad , -no doubtilxiiii . t4A he 4041, meet with the apprpea t tion of the Honourable Meniaber (Year), to becent . to ; the Penitentiary when. accomMOdation could be found . for theM. There were 9Q .who did not cane within either cliss,,.whO.were not. very far advanceci,in life but of theiacormation of. whom by those wh0...4d obsereediheni, lopes were not entertained. ITbek, were to be . sent lit the vekiel.in question.. IQ the facts • mentioned by the - Irobeitiable.lVleinberjie — clid not mean 'to question then); init it waii,§ bered that in' the promisc.noqsinterCoiirse of the suites, which had taken glee i 4 vessel nientiOned,' the guilt was equal on bcits iiiies; it was the intercourse in the majority of instances of persons preVionsly abandoned and profligate. ' And' it was acknow ledged that when; the ship passed St. Helena, this disorder was put an end to by better regillations. As to the deficiency of water, or the misconduct of the Commander, it did not fall on females particu larly. These abuses alone, though highly reprehen sible, form a reason for preventiag the country from being disburthened of the population, stibject to the law of transportation. As to the morality of the Co bony, if men continued to be sent out, he could not but think that the cause of morality would be likely to be advanced by sending out a proper proportion of women. As to the abuses stated to exist in the Colony itself, the account of many of them had been-1 derived from the evidence of witnesses before the Committee, who had not yet been cross-examined. As to the state of the Hospital, this was . the first tithe he had heard of it, as the Honourable Member had not examined a witnes.> before the Committee, who- had been long in Ncw South Wales, respecting it. The Honourable Member might by his statement have induced the House to believe, that all the wo men transported were sent to that worst of places, Paramatta. But the case was different. The first thing done when a ship, either of men or women, arrived at the Colony, was, that the inhabitants •of the Colony attended to choose those who they might conceive were likely to make gaud servants. They were taken under certain regulations—for instance, bachelors were not allowed to take females, but they were hired by married men, or by women—(Hear.) Many of course were so employed ; the rest, it was true, were sent to this woollen factory at Paramatta. But there were not such numbers at that place as might be supposed; there were only fifty or sixty, besides others sent there forcibly employed by way of punishment. They were all allowed, after three o'clock- in the day, to work for themselves, to pro vide the means of subsistence. Orders bad been re cently sent out to provide them with accommoda tions, which the females in the present ship would find when they arrived. It by no means absolutely followed that they gained their living by prostitution. As to the abuses of which the Honourable Mover spoke which occurred on the passage, it should be remembered, that by far the worst case, that in which the women had been seni on board a ship of war, had not occurred in the last year, and that the rela tor hadAot given the means of ascertaining the name of the ship or its commander. If the advice of the Honourable Mover were complied with, it would re commend, he supposed. that the women who were to be no longer sent to New South Wales, should be lodged in Penitentiaries, to be built in different parts of the kingdom, but thh was not the work of a day or year : even in those places, where Houses of Cor rection existed, they were overcharged. The argu ment which was alleged in favour of the Motion, via. that an inquiry was pending, went not only to the suspension of the system 'of ft-Importation, but of the punishment of death, and•the whole criminal law to an indefinite period: In one case the Houonr able Member had gone beyond the evidence. It was not stated before thr Committee that the convicts had no means of tyrant after the expiration of their sen tence. It was said, that they did not wish to rettrn, and that they might get the means'of returning by four or five years labour. Mr. BUXTON rose to correct a material ewer hi the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman's (Mr; Bi tbutit4 It was its is dye - evldeste Watt* ComMAttee, that the number of females in the manu factory at Paramatta was ISO, of whom 120 woe nightly discharged with no means bat prostitution to inaintainthemselves. Mr. BATHURST said, the females were allowed the flee use of their time, after three o'clock, to pro vide for their toinferts, but he protested against the assumption that prostitution was the only means they had of providing for themselves. Mr. BUXTON said, the witness had been asked how large a p . roportion of the females supported them selves by prostitution, and the answer was—nine out of ten—th an ) • Mr. GOULBURN said, the House Would see from the disputes on the present motion the inconvenience of discussing in the House the evidence.of a witness'''. before a Committee, whose examination had not yet been concluded--(7tear.) Sir T. B. MARTIN said, he should not follow the Honourable Mover into his rambles its New South Wales,' but he should remark that regulations had been already sent out, which there was every proba hility would remedy the evils complained of. The Ministers had been blamed for sending out ships in a bad season, and now when they were about to send them out in Spring, the Honourable Member moved en Address which would probably delay them till the storm of the Autumnal Equinox. The humanity of •the Honourable Member was stretched to an extra vagant extent, and if they had the full swing of their philanthropy, they would need an Act ot. Parliament to alter human nature-471*er). • Mr. CLIVE, in answer to the statement of the Honourable Mover, respecting the -separation of a mother fiom her child, said it was done at the writ ten request of the mother, who wished the child to remain with its aupt. . Mr. MARRYAT objected to the motion on the ground that a, hew system of regdations respecting Botany Bay had been adopted, and that the confi dence of the House should be reposed on the vigi lance.of the Ministers as applied to the case. , A MEMBER asked, whether the hulks could net' be applied to the occupation of feMales ? Mr. CLIVE said, the hulks were not yet tried suffl cieitlY ; and though they might succceed for Men, they possibly might not answer for women. Mr. BENSET shortly replied. He Wished it tole imderstoed,.that no new regulations had been estab lished Air . the transport ships, except those wflich existed at die time of the gross disorders in that ship which he hid - mentioned",_ , • all they had no* to de . .. .pend on, in addition ; was the character of ait'indivt% dual. • Vie general system of prostitution had pre vailed in 'aiship" sent Out under 'precisely the same ot ,,:lqs •at the present. As to the prostitution of females ,•.. at Paraniitur; he should read the answers before the Committee. :'f he witness was asked, whether the - had' - ether means of getting money but by prostitution?—He said he was not aware of any. Now without money they could not get lodgings or for these were not provided for them. It Was said that the women had the same means of te tt:ming to England as men ; that 20 or £5O would pay their Passage; and that the women had the same means of saving as the men. But the witness nega tived this idea, and said the women had not the same scope for saving. There were numerous instances in which persons, who had families in England, could not return (and all who had not homes in the colony wished to return,) except by prostituting their per sons. As to the rambles to New South Wales," all the Honourable Member had called them, he was net ashamed of them, and he was satisfied that the Mem. hers of the House, with whom he had co-operated, nor those mere. praise-worthy persons out of the House, who laboured in.the same cause, would not be deterred from their, exertions by a sneer. Far too from thinking• it necessary to have a. Bill to alter human nature, he:should be satisfied if. he could 'rertiove the la'ws which degraded it heat). As to the present Colony, it had not from its esta blishment experienced much of the tender mercies of, the Ministers: at its first establishment it was debt!- 1 , ed in the Council, whether the.Conviots should be sent thither, or sold to the Bey of Tunis.or Tripoli as Slaves (as Lord Auckland, one of the projectors, had informed the world)! The first Colonists who were sent out did not know where they were to go : the spot was not fixed—(Nol). He referred for a confirmation to the works of Messrs. Collins and Hurter. A great many of those first sent out were sentenced only for seven years, and had served out nearly all their time. Since 1787, thousands had perished there by disease and famine hundreds on the passage. In one ship '2OO had died on the voyage, and 100 ode} after they landed. This series of mal administration was not imputable to the present 31i nistry,, but it made it a duty of the House to look at that distant Settlement with a vigilant eye. The Motion was negatived without a division. OXFORD FLECTIoN. Mr. TENNYSON said, he had a petition to pre sent from the city (WO:ford, complaining of a breach of the Privileges of the House by his Grace the Duke of Marlborough. An Hon. and Learned Friend of his (Mr. Denman), had presented a PetitiOn on this subject, which had been decided to be an Election Petition, and which Arad not . been prosecuted. The present Petition varied in fraMe from the former it complained of the breach of Privilege by the iaterfe rence of a Peer, in proposing a Candidate to a Body of Electors, writing letters, and spending a large' sam of money in his behalf. He had a second leo tiesn from other persons, stating the facts more' at large, and a third from the Mayor and other Magis-' trates, stating their conviction of the truth of tfiesrate- Ment. The Petitioners offered to establish the truth of 'hat they stated ; and though he (Mr. Tennyson) could not undertake to share their responsibility, he had no doubt; from thitir respectability, that they wets convinced of the dila' of wh'at they'stated. It would, however, afford slim irifiriite otisfactirin ) if it could be prove d that they were Mistaken, as the name of the Nobleman accused was connected with the proudest recollections of Englishmen. Ile, however; urged on' the House the necessity of a minute itiquiry, and avindicatirtg, if the facts'were proved, by a de cisive step, the privileges an which their dignity and the freedom of the country depended. He moved that Petition be brought up. Mr. B. BATHURST thought that the question bbyy this Petition could not be entered.into :a r 'll e t a infringing the course prescribed by the law with respect to Election Petitions: • A Petition upon telitali abject was' presented some time ago, isid probably from the same gentleman who subscribed that under consideration. it was open to the former Petitioners to have their case referred to an Election Committee, in the usual way, according to the Gren ville Actag But this these Gentlemen declined to do; and, after the time for receiving Eieciien Petitions had elapsed, he could not see that it was competent to the House to enter into the subject now. It was to be remembered, that had the former Petition been referred to an Election Committee, the witnesses would have been' examined upon oath ; whereas were this question-of privilege taken up by the HOuse itself, these witnesses would not be under such obligation. Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW observed, that,*there nothing before the House to justify the conciusio t cf the Right . Honourable Gentleman, that the subsc.i. hers to the present. Petition were those from whom the former Petition emanated ; and argued, that from therejection of the former Petition, or the aban donment of that Petition by the Petitioners them selves, it did not follow that other Gentlemen should be Precluded from complaining of a breach of pri7l - ; and in this. case the breaCh was alleged to be of the grossest nature. It was the duty of the House, in his opinion, to examine this complaint, not with any view to the angry discusion which the Right Honourable Gentleman deprecated; but in order that, if the Duke of Marlborough should' appear, upea 'inquiry, to have been guilty of the improper conduct Imputed to him, the House might cone to an appro ptiate resolution, condemnatory of such corruption, and also pass an Address, requiring the prosecution of his Grace by his Majesty's Attorney-General. The House ought,' indeed, in this case, to follow the pre cedent in the reign of Queen Anne, when Sir Joha Parkington complained of a breach of privilege on the part of the Bishop of Worcester, in using undue influence at an Election for the 'City. But as this case was of great importance, he thought that time. should be afforded for its further consideration, and . therefore he moved an adjournment of th e debate N. until the 21st instant. Mr. B. BATHURST and Mr. C. W. WYNN spoke against the Petition, conceiving that the House could. not enter into the investigation of its statements with • out departing from the course settled by law; while, if the breach of privilege were made out, it would then appear that there• were Members in that House who 'ought not to be there. • But to this no remedy could now be applied, and therefore nothing but the punishment of an individual could be-attained thrt.ugh this Petition, while the House would be left withoat any redress for.that of which there reason to complain. The Duke of Marlborough was charged by the Petitioners with directly interfering in the late Election for Oxford, with distributing money, a:id using other corrupt means to procure the return of his favourite Candidate. 1:o* if those charges were unfounded, why did not the former Petitioners, by whom also they were advanced, resort to legal mca.l; of obtaining redress through an Election Committ? But this those parties did not choose to do. and :hcr^ was no reason whrthey should now be let in to malc.! out their case. Such a proceeding would indeed be illegal, and tend to the establishment of, a most in convenient precedent, and therefore those Honour-. able Gentlemen felt themselves bound to oppose tee • • proposition.. Mr-DEN AN thought it an extraordinary doc trine that the present Petitioners should not he al lowed to establish their charge of a breach of the privileges of that House, because former Petitionefs, did not think proper to follow up the same charge. Dut the fact was, that the former Petitioners clecli:led to prosecute their Petition; because they were not dis posed to incur, or able to defray, the expense of an Inquiry before an Election Committee, the result a which might be the return of a Gentleman; about whom the Petitioners felt no interest. It also appeared, that some dd itiona 1 tarts, as to the breach of privi lege complained of, had been discovered since the former Petition was aband-neil. Upon what gourd then could the present l'etitkm be rejected, unle-s it were meant th:tt no breach of the privileges of that House *hvuld be inves:iga:ed by the House %Vas it to t,e undetstyad that the ipterference of I Peer at an election, Gr any otNeC leiolation of the pri. vileges of that Howe with re7ard t 0 an election, • ' cou:d Le taken cognizance of only before an Election Committee. *.‘ ; . _ . Mr. GOULBURN said, that the Learned Gen!le— man had misumkrstood the real question undercon sideration. The question was not whether the House would investigate a clrirge with regard to breach of privile,r, but whether it would act according to la* by refusing investigation upon such a subject in any other fin ni than that which the law prescribed. For sake of the character of the House, and the consis tency of its proceedings - it became necessary to dis countenance a Petition Of this nature. The SPEAKER thowylit it right to describe the state of the case. The firmer Petition complained of a breach of privilege; and every Petition present ed to that House complaining of improper conduct or undue return at an election, involved the charge of a 'breach of privilege.. The .only question as to the Petition. alluded to, was, whether the charge of an undue return complained of in that Petition was not a subject for legitiMate discussion before an Electica Committee? and upon this question the House de cided in the affirmative, but the parties declined to. prosecute their Petition. . • The House divided on the Motion for Adjourn ment—Ayes 11—Noes 33—Majority 22. • After sonic desultory conversation, in which Mr. BMW U RST and Sir 110ERRT. WILSON LOA a part, The CHANCELLOR of • the EXCIIEQUER observed, that If this Petition were received, an el couravement would be held out to persons objecting ~, to the return of certain Members to lie by until the time for presenting Election Petitions bad expired, and then come forward, perhaps, to scatter calumdes, and to seek an opportunity of supporting those Ca... lumnies by evidence not upon an oath. Mr. C. W. WYNN said, that if such a Petition were received and investigated by the House, it would be . as well at once to-repeal the Grenville Att, and to make the House itself again the tribunal for. deciding u_pon Election cases. The case of the Bishop of Worcester alluded to in the course cf the discussion, took place it would be recollected before the .Grenville Act was passed, and the. proceedings against that• Prelate were the consequence of a ccf.i. int . preferred by a Member of that 11 , Mr. TEN NYSON expressed his opi-' rititioa were rejected, it would 'be H: had sl illwas under su .xld not fail to ;.111 who rci:ecte4 'ant the House ;:not consist in nits-au:LI; to tlanxicus to pi tuu or any ht he said t as it roul.± b zbe; convic - 1 of fela.ll: con ..crier of the cou could yto.;.it be lo some of 'are they could I:%t. He did tl.era was bad, aS to re :le country. 1 .sw:lt out, a yers only. 7ti0r,,,.. 4.er thcy %coil hontver £Ol try a syste and latter pith movi ts the Prince s would slag of a vessel New Small W: WiLiIF.H 1 he was anxio taps Ue able to :n the mo lev :%..tionto the in which Z -0 .4 not but -;•I parts of I s i s zsiQns. Thy % . -7"...t0 the st • a:.,1 e s p ( L tzs. :;ow tha n t t o : 1 1.-nas:ll oarir thi; ia stay the rot b e 7-Itt of the ve w.ts in coal.: be r. . be p; '•''!tis car ,. chewa to r`t s th ;•:!. •'" z4u, 'ra l „ l ; tiltzeri ipt Y ), t 3 p the t ie ..., —ln, t! riz !Louse. )iaion, that if this, f001i4,12 and •