Star. — London, England, 1816-03-26 00:00:00

• floodf_a real aid pertbanent system of oe - o. v ( *fir blur C. sgrTH sp,ke in favour of referring the pare of the finances, and the necessities of the coup. t c pm aree, as recommended by hii Right t H ry o , o. l ' . Fri cad ( Mr. Tierney), and which bad also b ee n sanctioned by the highest precedent—that of M r . Pitt. Such Committees had, under his auspices,_, b e en formed in 1786, and in 1797: These prece; deists should at any period have considerable in inoie, but in a time like the present, of severe dis tress, they should be imperative. Mr. THOMPSON conceived that the Chancellor f the Exchequer proposed to meet the charge of the Loan by c ertain new taxes -on the imports and ex. es. The interest of the Loan would thus fall principally on the Merchants; but as one, he would se r er bearing that burthen to the Property Tax.— t o a l s o understood theft the Sinking Fund would not h e touched. This he considered as extremely lonot ageeus for any infringement on that Fund wog be attended with a bad effect. He trusted that econom y would be seriously practised, as to that a l on e ;he nation could look with confidence for ulti mate relief. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER w is very happy that the Honourable Gentleman op posite h a d given him an opportunity of again stating his intention of not touching the Sinking Fund, which he would be enabled to effect by proposing some mo difications on the Custom Duties to meet the expenses of the Loan. Mr. GRENFELL said, that a considerable dimi nution of expenditure had been expected by the coun try, and yet the Chancellor of the Exchequer was de termined, if he could not raise the Supply by the Pro perty Tax, he would by other means. He desired to learn whether the stock of Malt on hand would be allowed the benefit of the remission of the war duties? He also asked if it was intended that the country should participate in the advantages resulting to the Bank of England by the proposed continuance of the Rnuiction Act ? Those advantages were to the Bank no less than 8800,000. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ans wered, that with respect to the Malt, it was his intention to introduce a Bill for repaying, after the ea t lay, the duty that would be advanced on stock in hand; but as to the Bank, he would not that the fl use sAuld ter a moment entertain the idea of sharing in any proits arising from the restriction of ca sh payments. If that restriction were continued from political motives, it would be wholly below Par liament to take advantage of it. He assured the lionoinahle Gentleman, that his Majesty's Ministers required no stimulus to economy, but would be guided in ewey thing by what was due to the interest of the cottony, which he well knew was not so ex hausted as not fo be able to bear the necessary ex penses of the public service. Colonel WOOL) complained of the great • severity with which the Horse Tax pressed on the small Far mer, the amount of which exceeded that of the Pro perty Tax. Every working horse was charged 175.6 d. and if by chance ti;.: farmer rode him , be WAS :loin charged is a riding lorse, and a groom yeas ad.!ed to clean.him. He hoped that though the Act might bear this construction, that if it should be continued, sae might be taken to prevent the extreme severity of its operation. Mr. MOORE expressed his surprise that the Chancellor of the lisctieeprer should have brought forward only a partial statement in the Committee of Supply. The cnintry had just concluded a war in which the enormous sum of 1500 millions had been expended. lorpr;ri's shoull be instituted how these sums had been expcolod. By such we should hav been enabled to command the whole world, and ultimately it was by their operation that we achieved the great object of the war-I.)r not 1.1 '!* own feel ing', but English , money, congregatcti t!re N aions oi Europe iu defence of their own rights. 1-ic had, rinse the c. , mwencement of the war, deprecated its tentinuance, tor he knew it to be v-agml. not against French ptuicipies, or jacobinical sys!cms, but against reformation 'n our internal !whey. To this point as the count! ) aoato returnee., and ire hoped th.tt totting woul , i prevent the I - I nose +run undertaking that important ;dinar. He again condemned t Chancellor of the 1... l ache uerfor etrat ti . al snernent to the House, ri and conchal, by strongly etlorcinG the l t. y cessity f a severe an d .:r i ot economy. b e !r. hiN contended for the nezessity ofitin g the Excise Duties, as the only pr4c:ic,l • . draining the Dotillers, who would then bt: enabled b_yet td ..sithe il a whol esome unfair trader and smuggler in the ma . rhet, and palatable liquor. The Re soluti on i was then put and carried. " :Pk: (LI: then resumed the Chair, and the report at or•lert.d to be brought up I,_:onotrow. T B UPPLY.—THE NAVY EhTI' , fAVES. The CHANC I7 I.LOK of the EXCHEQUER " ( fled that the 11 , ,use resolve itself into a Commit. nOl the whole House, to consider further of the b ln A ply to be grtted to his Majesty ; and that the a"TE,tim 4 t es be referred to the same. Committee. ltr. TIERNEY rose to call the attention of the Ibase to a pint, which, in relation to the promised ._ B Y 4 tla of economy, wou ld a fford a much better cri "Hun than the Army Estimates, to what,the Noble l e l ltrt opinions w ere on t h at h e ad. He would beg e first to impress it on the House particularly,: "4 th e Proposed Estimates bear no relation what "so the naval service of the country, that is, of the numb er of men necessary for its defence ; and, !"eett, on that point every one felt, that after poi. I ng the vo:e on the Army Estimates, the number of be 'men Could not with propriety be reduced below PmPosed number; but the present Estimates " re Ilr't the slightst reference to that, they included' he cw t ( eiptntitture merely. To examine, therefore,' he the promise of economy, so freely made by ae Nobl e L ord, has been realized, it would be neces lary to compare the present Estimates with those of leo-1814, the last year of war, and • in that cntliparispa there sh ou ld ap p ro. an increase, instead as di minution of expenditure, he couceived it would de f ull tirne f or the Holm to consider the subject tiai t their most serious attention. This, he observed, 7 1 : 4 ' h tt o omthing t o the Right Hon. Gentlemau oe;pb , the she would watch his countenance, and from T4 natiollll in that, es t im ate t h e progress-he vite r on . ILI make i n hi s statement . The Estimates vi i utt7itle.i under different heads, in each of whicb ezimlue them ; again premising that in 1 1041 4 u ct.—tue utunbsr of meat was Jahoetber • • • omitted. from . • the question. The first item was the 1 apes to rote, were not of thi s •eh ats eter. Tt was ' Admiralty. Th e est i mates un d er i b is head were, i true that great reductions were co itemplated in the for the present year, 461,229. From this he knew course of the year, but of these it was impossible to there would be a reduction of £l5OO, the . proposed • make a just calculation at this 'wield, and thereflwe increase of salaries to the Admiralty Secretaries, the many of the charges were taken at a rate which result of a former ,night's debate. Of this XlOOO would hereafter be materially diminshed. It was damage would fall on an Hon. Gentleman behind i true, as the Right Honourable Gentleman had stated; the Noble Lord (Mr. Croker), and five hundred that the civil departments of the Nosey were taken at pounds damage would fall on another Gentleman a much larger rate than in time of war, particularly (Mr. Barrow), who was not a Member of the Hsuse. the clerks in dock-yards. This was to he accounted He must condole with these Gentlemen for their for by the natural increase of business which took place having suffered this proposed addition to go to the in the dock-yards, from the number of ships which Committee, where they might happen not to find were laid up in ordinary, and the necessity of clerks their salaries. The estimate of the Admiralty, in being employed to receive these stores. --(Hear.) the year 1814, was ein 1,756, fbr which there appeared, He trusted, upon the whole, however, he should be /trim facie, a diminution of about £lO,OOO, but it able to prove that the Estimates produced were taken would be material to have this sifted, and it would at the lowest rate at which they could be taken, con be found that the real diminution was £923, arising sistently with a due regard to the interests of the too from the t rans i t i on f rom war to peace, and not country. To effect this, he thought the best course from any circumstance; over which the Board exer- he could take would be to go through the Estimates cised any contront. Of this apparent diminution of as they presented themselves in the papers betore the ten thousand pounds, there was under the h ea d of House. The first head was the Public Department. stationary for the hydrograplier, a saving of three The vote under this head in 1815, was £193,000 — thousand peunds, because the return of peace Ten. that now proposed was €1a9,000. Here, therefore, dered the former expenditure absolutely unnecessary. was a saving of £lOOO. This saving would have! There was, for ordinary stational'', a saving of five been much greater, but for the increase of the - salariesl hundred pounds, which necessarily arose from a dimi- of clerks which had taken place—a subject which ile nution nt seamen, but there e: as to be seen no saving would not now discuss. Use next head was the in &tail, from any exertions of the Board. In Bibles Foreign Yards. The reduction in this case was and Testaments, and fees to Counsel, there was a but trifling ; yet the House would recollect, that saving of £lOOO, arising also from causes similar to it was impossible to reduce these with such r Ti the preceding, making altogether about 49600, diry as to produce any very great saving on the leaving a saving of about ae923. This was the whole face of the present Estimates. He desired to difference of expense to the country in the large state, however, that it was in contempletien to Department' of the Admiralty;—and he could not reduce, in iota, the Establishments at Madras and but congratulate the Noble Lord on the progress Bombay. In the Mediterranean, reductions would he had already made in Ms new system of economy. also take place as quickly end as extensively If the Estimates of the present year were compared as the service of the country would permit.— with those of 1804, the case would appear stronger In Antigua, Halifax, Jamaica, and Bermuda, such against the Ministers. The Estimates of the Ad- reductions would likewise be made as were consistent miralty in that year, the fast of the war, amounted with the maintenance of our naval authority, and the to 5e43,900 ; so that the enuetry is worse off in the safety of the public interests. Tie third fie.ad WAS first year of peace than it had been in the first year that of the Victualling Depart:nee t, in which consi of the war.—Hear, hear.) —The Wry Office Esti- derable dieninutions rvere also Laid; g place, and per mates of the year 1814, amounted to £81,109 ; titularly s: Dover, where the establishment was to while in the present year they are Je84,1(39, exceeding be totally abandoned. Upon the Lubjtlct of outports, the former by more than £3,000. That sum web he had to remark, that Harwich was to be given up undoubtedly of no very great importance, except as entirely, and many other v.:allot - Liz:al arrangements a comment on the Noble Lord's economy; but corn. were under consideration. 01 the subject ut the in pare the present estimates with those of 1804, and crease of the salary of Clerks of the Admiralty, he the difference will be of some more impertence. lii had hoped that the Order in Council under which that year they amounted to £4OOO, leaving .an in. that increase had taken place would have proved crease for the present year or ,031,000. No very satisfactory to the House. It was a subject which flattering comparison between tee first year of war had lung been under contemplation, and had been and the first year of peace—(Hear, hear.)—This lie sanctions) by many Members on the opposite side thought. made out' a case, to COMpei the Worthy of the llouse. The excess of half pay was easily ac. Baronet opposite (Sir George Warrender) to shew counted for by a reference to the number of Officers some reason for so strange an alteration. The paid off—and the increase en the Superannuate, Navy Pay.office in 1814 was £44,(x0; in the ere. List was justified by the Order in Conned of 1817: sent year it moulted to £4.3,86e, less than the With respect to the building and repairs of ships, preceding by about £1,035. There was a saving which certainly embraced a very large item of expen of postage occasioned by the peace of 45.000.-- diture in chase Estimates, this was to be traced to the The Victualling Office left a small balance of £42e, arduous services in which our ships had been ea. against which were set eft a saving in postage; but gaged, and the damage which they must necessarily wherever a saving arises, it is not obtained by th b tee sustained. Another reason for the magnitude enntroul of tie Board, flut from same causes neces- of this charge was, the transfer of the building of sarily operating in the cessation of the war. It was ships of war irem merchants' yards to those of the unnecessary for him to enter into details, for the King, a transfer which, Lad it taken piece sooner, House could itself refer to the necessary stare:n:nte would have been proluctive of a Living of many He then proceeded to draw general comparisons he- milhons to the cow •: y. (Hear, hoar.) At the con. rween the Es.insates of both years, under the ditfea clusinn of the American war we hail 28 ships of the rent items, and sheaved that die amount of the present line and ;it Ireettes building in merchants' yards, year exceeded that of 1811, by at least £29,000. whereas at toe conclusion of the late war we had hut After such a statement, li e asked, was a n o the r wor d 1 one sm tit sixth-rate in th a t s :t ua tien. H e con f esse d necessary ? If teose facts were not satisfactorily ex- the course taken by the Right Honourable Gentle pleined, would the Home for one moment entertain men (Mr. Tierney) had placed him under very can those Estimates, on the face of which there not only sidereble embarrassment ; yet he trusted the House appeared no saving, but .tn actual exceeding of would agree with him in thinking, although his i i 20,0!):;? This could net be done away by ergu- statement was net of that clear and conclusive mein or reaeottine, it must be met figure by.figure. mature which the case warranted, that tl:e Estimates It would require one of the Noble Lord's longest were no more than circumstances would fully justify. set-ec!ies to escape from the difficulty. It might be The Honourable Baronet then referred to the works said that the Clerks' Salwees should be increased, but carrying on at Sheerness. and at Plymouth, the im he would net listen to such an argument in a moment portance of which he said was . such, that it was of of such generel distress. He would tell them to go the utmost consequence to the welfare of the n ivy to on as ths.y had don?, and, strange as it may appear, finish them upon the same scale on which they had if they hurl persisted, in the war establishment there been commenced. The whole amount of the Naval would have Iscial a saving 042%000.—(Ifear, h:.zr). Estimates •for the service of the year, he sal', was and if the illeininetiens hid been spared, there woul I £7,140,000, to which being added some other at-- have been a caving of £loo,ooo.—(Hear, hear).— tides of A miscellaneous description, not exactly He eirwareeif, teet the Right Honourable Gentle- coming within the meaning of naval charges, such as man's col:utterance seemed somewhat m re fixed— stores furnished to foreign garrisons, etc. The total (:9 Lrega)—from which he augured most favourably. was £9,177,D00. This sum would, he bad no doubt, :ie would now desire that the present Estimates be considerably reduced in the course of the year, ehould be negatived, and that an Address should then and he could assure the House, that upon the part of be presented to the Prince Regent, praying him to his Majesty's Ministers there was every disposition have them altered and reduced. This he, however, to consult economy, as far as was consistent with the would not move, as from the fate of a similar motion interests of the public, in every possible way. of a Noble Friend of his (Lord John Russell), re- Mr..GORDON felt great pleasure in the last as specting the Army Estimates, h e could not tell what surance given by the Honourable Baronet, namely, reception it might experience. The futility of such that his Majesty's Ministers were desirous of consult a proceeding has been asserted, for the Estimates ing economy in every possible way; he had to. la would thus be only sent back to the same Ministers relent, however, that the present Estimate afforded that had prepared them. He doubted not, however, but an indifferent earnest to fulfil this pledge, for' that ii the Estimates had been sent back by a vote of upon comparing it'witu former EstiMates, lie found the House of Commons, the Noble Lord would en- that so far was it from possessing a single feature of 1 deavour to reduce them, as the Right Honourable economy, it, on the contrary, bore every mark of Gentleman, who declarelhe would stand or fall with extravagance.--(Loud crier of Hear, hear, hear). — the Property Tax, sen remained in, and resorted to To illustrate this remark he would take the liberty other measures. If the country Gentlemen, on whom of contrasting this Estimate with those of 1813 and he relied, insisted on having the Estimates reduced, 1802. By the present Estimate, the Salary of the the Noble Lerd would se), o this is very hard un First Clerk was £l,OOO, together with £l5O as lie- me, but, sooner than disoblige my worthy old friends; ceiver of Fees. In that of 1813, the Salary of this I'll see whet I can do ;" and be would no doubt eii- Clerk was but 4800. He next came to the Salary of deavour to gratify them. He observed, how useless the Secretary of the Naval Charitable Fund. In it would be to go into a Committee on particulars, 1813 this was but 4350 per annum ; in the present where, however anxious all may be, it would be im- year it was £lOO. These were but trifling items he poSsible fbr them to agree in one common measure of would admit, but in the aggregate they would amount economy. He was satisfied that the majority of the to a large sum.—(Hear, hear).—The next charge House were of opinion, that these Estimates might was for the Paymaster of the Widows' Pensions.— be very materially reduced, and in support of this i In 1813 this was but £lOO per annum ; in the pre proposition it was only necessary to state, that the sent year it was AE6OO ; formerly this office had no Civil Departlnent of the Wavy was £20,000 greater Clerk, now he had an assistant at £BO a year.— in a time of peace than it had been is a time of war. Then Came the Inspector, of Telegraphs—pie G. _(Hear, hear.) WARRENDER—.. 44 I will save the Honourable Gentle- Sir GI!O. WARRENDER felt himself bound to man trouble on this point, as this office is to be done say, that, although the Right Honourable Gentle- j away altogether.")—Mr. Go RDON , i n cont i nuat i on, man had detivered a speech of great ingenuity, yet I observed, that if this was the case, it ought not to that he had not exercised that fairness in his rental ks ; have appeared as a Charge on the face of the Esti which the courtesy of Parliament demanded. Tire ! mates—Vi e w-4—Th,, person's salary , i n 1 8 0 2, was facts connected with these Estimates were not yet ' but bet latterly it had been charged at £5OO. before the Heuse, so as to enable them to form a I This nea of charge was followed by a charge tor six judgment of the different items. Throughout the Messengers; one at 12280 per annum, tour at £l5O Right Honourable Gentlemee's speech he had ape i . per annum, and one at £4O. 'flit charge, in 1802, plied his arguments to a peace establishment, when itor these persons being f or the first only £l2O, and in tact th e sums which the )'louse would be called for the others sixty, fifty, and forty rands each. • There Wes also a charge to the present ritimates of €2O for the barge master, the old charge being but £6. - Throughout, in feet, there was the same se-s. tern of extravagant increase observable The Ho nourable Geatlem to met A sit into an examieeti• II of the charges for the tiidereut Dockiefards, and con. trasted them with 1513 and 1802. • 11 1802 we hard a tort of insecure peace—Bonaparte was then on the throne of France—whe.reas now the legit:mate Boer. - - bons ruled over dot country. From all this the House and the country would %re the necessity.of forcing his Majesty's Ministers to meesures of eco. nomy; for unless fermi he was convinced their eco. . nomy would end in mere professions. . Sir JOSEPH YORKE said, he was convinced that it could be found impossible to .educe the esta blishment of 1816 as low as that of 189`.? (Hear, hear. ) That a reduction of a few thousand pounds to the Estimates might be i•frected, he would not pretend to. say, but he weeld deny that any great saving could be made. ‘Vilen they were talking sn mush of re. ductien, tl.ey ought to thluk of the very woo. iecen. veniete:e of so many Gentleman being turned adrift without employ me nt—( a l aug h.) I t was Al clamour, l nothing lint claniouf, nonsense, and noise— (a Im-o/m.) I %Viet respect to the three India Estaelisheierits, in the con se of this year, the reo of B :nbee end Ma. dras ita' be seen ;so more. In the Mediterranean, it was intended to reduce Gibraltar as low as in t 8 .2. . Bermuda, as any person might see from a Mercatia's chart, sweet the whole coast of the United Statee, and was a station of great importance. It was hi tended to reduce our establishments there and at An tieeit as tow as could possibly be done eel) safety. le l ith respect to another Dock yard, that at Lake On tario, the whole security of Canada del ended on our naval force there. On the firt breaking out of a war with-the United State:, which from their great and growing power every person ought to look for ward to, we must lay our account with seeing three. deckers on the Lakes. A bumboat eepeeNtion would no Linger enswer ill that quo ter—we could no longer I .eep up a tinchb:ch estaolisitmeot there—(a Litioi ) He would leave the Clerks in better hands than ;iii own. Many-ot these Gentlemen were deserving of the greatest possible credit.—As to the abnleien of the Peymastersiiip of the Marines, if they did away this oiicer they must turn it over to some other de partment, a:,d if more was given to the department to which it was tamed over, a shilling would not he saved. One ot the three Surveyors came in place of the Inspector General of Naval works. As to the , Register office re public security, it was said there was no such establishment in 1613. Why, the greatest inconvenience was felt from the want of such out office.—There was no security before, for the pubic , were pilfered and beeirilled all weathers—(bytes.) He had sat twenty six years in tie: House, and yet he declare) he ceull never succeed in getting into the hebit of Perliaementary exeression. He :11%10 it was better to he ve an office ot that sort, and to take care the public simould not be diddled out of their money. The third Surveyor !hie k nown oat of the Office of Inspector of Naval We: ks. As to the charge for the three draftsmen, he would net say whether it was or was not too high, bet if they wete good artists, they ought to he pail at least better than labmlrecs. As to the parish duties and rates, when he reelected on the ieerease in his own small establishment, he , could not be surprised diet near a n eat arsenal, the , increase should be still greater. 'the increase in the dock yards eltegether, alone from the resolufiou of Government to do as numb as possible in the Royal Diock.yartis, and to keep away from the merchants , yards. Won the whole, be appealed to the country Gentlemen in the Hew, and to every man, either in efface, or who wished to get into office, whether it was possible at Lady-day, 1816, to cut down the Naval Establishment to that of the dearly beloved period of 1602 ? A few thousand poem's might be cut down that viry month, but any greet saving could not be lookiol for till the end of the year s . • Admiral MA RKHANI felt himself called on, - from some observations in the speech of the Hen era. hie Gentleman olio spJlce last-•-• 4 speech mere full of jokes than arguments, to say something eespectino the iminekbeed Administration alluded to—he nie.iii. that of Earl St. Vincent. It was hardly necessary for him to enlarge on the great qualifications pos sessed by that extraordinary man—it was hardly ne cessary for him to call the attention of the House to the length or the value of his services—and if the Honourable Gentleman had nothing to urge against the argument for a reduction of the lavish expendi ture proposed by his M4jesty's Ministers but the ridi. cute winch he had thrown on the economy practised under the naval administration of that Gallant Lord, he had better have kept his peace and not said a word. He congratulated the House and the country that one greet plan of the Noble Earl alluded to, the building ships in the Royal Dock-yards, had at lengths been adopted. That was a point which had for merly beets much laboured in that House, and for which the Administration to which the Pinchb.ck Admiralty belonged, had been much vilified. Yet the present Administration were now taking cre. dit for this plan, and ridiculing all the while those whom in this respect they were merely Ica:mint: He objected to the great sum which was to be ex pended in new works, and especially the sum which was to be laid out on Pator Yard, in Milford Haven. There had been betere a Yat d in Milford Haven, b r building only, but now it seemed the intention to make a Yatd theme for repairing also. He protested' against the establisement of any Yard at all, in that harbour. What recommendations it had even tor a building yard, he could not imagine. The country around it produced no timber. The nearest place from whence timber was brought, was the River Wyc, and as it was necessary to ship it, the expense would not be increased by carrying it round the Lsnd's End to Plymouth. It was, besides, necessary to carry to Millard, sails, cordage, copper, iron, and all other articles, which enhanced the charge of re pairs, and is was tiesides one of the worst points for ships to make in the Irish Channel. He also thought .. it very injudicious to expend large sums on the yards in the rivers Thames and Medway, because the depth of water continued to diminish in those rivers. The sums which it was now proposed to expend on Chat. ham, Woolwich and Deptford, and the new yard at Pator, ,would go far towards the building a neve yard at Northileet. He did not mean to object to the keeping the old yards in the river in repair, but it WAS Mit improvident to make any additions to them. In the foreign yards the reductions had not