Star. — London, England, 1819-12-25 00:00:00

• • N ose of ' cc . T Kt he con in I he min evils 2S ti oa he of bulli esped all .cleans t i: ; was 21 shoe • i . T omtit to 1 , 00 0 n ; • , iteilt s j of th I , ,ea Ca . P o• s ri ßicarci ..v for di * of the haw on a 11 .1 a can Hen. ;ion of u: i ben , • eti ab ivit he . by at • of 1 • • e were • for ing rr,e• ci Pal to; wi.;l rtle Pi ited, it •epi in Ica at t.:ey t asst rel 1' me to Inc hied ere to • C ; Ove,e V : • ••;:si,leT ar hich ei :o an to (;e, • Ir. I ri • pi( av eft in •••••nsl g.' apron •a is an , rileasat tiat he House, • • bat He v. Chi•••: ad. iaus say treat TPril :au at • • singl .ache fit ; saki ion its -.otht )li- the erdi - 7 ed ley ate lii no 7.as set • 7: :Li- y S ti ass • F. tat ••. ; icEL on, , r • of- • ;he ars es- fie es , ;ter cot, ch, 361 tl• of dor was et, ac- .0.11 an7s. vat t ith • St a . prove of the utmost advantage. A,no. of distress was the plifpnrseditHitige in the The House was already in possession cif Is which he entertained upon this subject. , then intend to minim any discussion upon conceived that some modification might in the laws lately enacted, in order to re sin& of many persons, who apprehended ,as the result of their operation. The mo- he a fished to see effected, regarded the )ullion payments. He thought it would be rdieut to extend the first price of the bul ,ll t h e period included in the plan. By is the oppo . rtanifj , and facilities of acquiring tenting resources would be given to He thought, also, that the same option allowed to the holder of notes, as to gold iould be extended also to silver bullion.—. slifications, while they answered great ad to the Public, could not by possibility in the principle of the plan. For his part, he :sitation in declaring it to be his conviction, on in any shape would not Ise applied for by is at the Bank. But althosigh he was •con this, he knew that a great cloud and gloom cast on the commercial world by the plan Payments. He • would • now advert to the a speech made by an Hon. Friend of his :ardo). His Hon. Friend proposed as a re the distress of the country the gradual re he Corn Laws. Such a measure, he believed, ave the effect of placing the agricultural a level with the commercial interests, as to .1 good deal of advantage might be g_ained :qnsideration of the state of the Poor Laws. friend had :Omitted a 'llan for the liqui oi tiie National Debt. The plan was not , and he would pledge himself, that if the t f the Chancellor of the Exchequer were I, it would be found that a similar plan propbscd one hundred years ago. He a , ain to assure the House, that the opinions he had now expressed were not suggested to any person, but that they were entirely the his own deliberations. • He thought that rue strong reasons in the case of the Petition . inducing Government to give it their most attention, and he trusted that they would have i:easure or other to propose by the next meet- Parliament, with a view to remedy the appre ts of the commercial world, or in case that 'meat refused to bring forward any such that they would then suffer an inquiry to Petition was then brought up and read. It in substance;—That the Petitioners were impressed Kith a sense of the great distresses at present prevailed throughout .the country, :ey lamented, more especially, those which op the commercial classes. They did not pre a) say what were the causes of this state, but t'sured that Honourable House that they saw, regret, that the House was on the eve of ad iment, without some step having beet taken by inquire into the causes of the distress they corn-1 id of, which, they felt persuaded, if the House to do, a remedy would easily be found, when the cause, or causes, of it were ascertained. The ion concluded with expressing a hope that the , e would take this matter into their most earn weration, in order that the lamentable distresses h existed in the country mightbe likely to meet 311 early termination. The Petition also al , to the other points mentioned by the Honour- , Gentleman in his speech. GIiENFELL thought that the House had ri g ht to complain, not of the Hon. Member presented the Petition, forhe was only diSchaat iis duty, but of the Gentlemen who originated. Vition, because therstated that they were in pos id of the causes of the dimness, as well as of the ..of remedying it; yet they allowed Parliament emceed in its sittings for one whole month, and 7, on the very day of adjournment, they came and to tantalize the House with useless and un %lint topics. L was only at a late hour yesterday, it he heard, and heard with great surprize, that a ition was to be presented that evening to the Aso, from the Merchants of the City of London. ' t ots the more surprized, because having been in City the most part of Wednesday, amongst va u hankers and Merchants, and having spent a it part of yesterday also there, he had not bees nixed that such a thing was in existence, or heard • any application, or remonstrance, was made to Ingle individual about it. As soon as the news lied him, he supposed it was in consequence of ie accident that he had not heard it. He therefore den his business to inquire that morning, and he uld now state the result to the House. He met '4ll two persons who signed the Petition, and with 'ther who had been applied to mine it, but re- 1 M. The latter was a friend of his, a Russian achant, and he stated, that a Gentleman had ap.' •ed to him the day before, as he was going out of to sign the Petition. The merchant asked it it was about, what was its object, arid by whoin . .tas signed ? "Oh !" said the other, "it is aPe from the other end of the town—it comes from Castlereagh—(A largh)--and I'll tell yea what 1 1T. The Honourable Member for Shrewsbury F• Bennet) submitted.a 'motion, you are aware, for •; : lotily into the state of the manufacturing dis .)ut he mixed up so much of politics in thetrio . :hat Lord Castlereagh felt himself obliged to e it altogether—but, if there be a Petition pre ' J, n ith a view to bring about an inquiry, with ,: • a , bracing any political topics, then Lord Castle give it his support."—(Latighter). To this, have Russian merchant replied, " Then if it t:car Lord Castlereagh, that is a very good •rr h I shall not sign it." (Hear, and laughter). 11 Jr.ourable Member then said, that he had an ' . %•evi with one of those whom he had already de to have signed the Petition. This was an livi raid connected with one of the brit tbnimercial ''`e•, nut only in Great Britain, bat in Europe.--, Grcufell) asked this friend at se the nature', the Petition, and the reasons which inanted him, !::,;11 it ? He stated, he did not kriow what it was,' 't that being a milk and water sett of thing, he i i4tl to the application to sign it! He (Mr. Oren- Y 1 :he n went to the other individual who signed it, this Gentleman gave his reply by letter, which h leave of the House, he would read. The letter, sib Hulce, was as follows ;• 44 I signed the Petition at the particular des*e - of a gentleman with. who s fe l, hair; bird" extensive dealings, and who ut me to do so. t confess I thought the Petition a:11- 1 eiv ti diculons;. one but finding it to be harmless, and con. t in:Vegtte and ihdirect terms, I yielded to the solicitation of my friend. However, on knowing 'What the trite object of the Petition is, Lam soriv ftsr •igning it, and w ou ld w illin g ly withdraw my barite,: particularly if 'the Petition would have the effect of renewing an inquiry into the currency.* Such was the result of the inquiries he had made, and from all he could collect with regard to the Petition, he was sure it could not properly be called the Petition of the Merchants of the City of London. Had his Ho nourable Friend who presented the Petition conftued himself tolhe consideration of the r emoval of the re strictive laws on commerce, and the extension of the British trade to Chin a , he (Mr. Grenfell) would have had no difficulty in believing that the object of the Petition was simply to bring about an inquiry. But the latter part of the Honourable Member's speech furnished a clue to the whole. The murder was out —the inquiry sought for was not to bring about an alteration of the Restriction Laws—not to extend our trade to China; it was, in fact, for .no other ' purpose than to subvert and destroy the arrangement which, after mature deliberation, had been confirmed last Session for the resumption of Cash Payments by the Bank. The currency was the real object of the Petitioners anxiety. It might be true that the Peti tion did not proceed from factious persons, but he had no hesitation in saying, that it came from a party. who, having been checked and crippled in their spe culations, wished now to create an alarm with a view to alter the currency of the country. Mr. IRVING said, the little intercourse which he had with the class of men to whom the Petitioners belonged, did not afford him the opportunity of making such detailed inquiries as the Honourable Gentleman who spoke last had it in his power to make ; but whatever might be said or thought of the Petition, he would confidently assure the House, that the majority of the names attached to it be longed to the first individuals in this great City. The Honourable Gentleman opposite had stated in detail his communications with Gentlemen in the City, with a view to throw disgrace upon the Petition, and in order that his reflections might go forth to the coun try ; for in that House he was sure they would make but very little impression. It was intimated that the signatures to the Petition were of very small extent ; but they were neither small in extent nor influence, .and belonged to a body of great importance, which claimed the attention of the House. It was rather surprising, indeed, considering the hurried manner in which the Petition was got up, that there had been so many names collected to it. But the Honourable Member said, that this was another attempt to sub vert the legislative measures of Parliament. He (Mr. Irving) had already stated, that he received neither instruction nor suggestion to make any specific re presentation—what he said entirely emanated from himself—(Hear, beer!)—He had no hesitation in stating, that however much he differed with the Ho nourable Member as to the means employed to effec tuate the plans of the Legislature Kith respect to Cash Payments, he was as unwilling as ane one to dis turb the enactment of last Session, because the coun try had been. already put to the inconveniences of tic STICeI'UTC• lie would say, that it was his decided opinion that a great proportion of the distresses now afflicting the commercial part of the country was owing to that measure. Although it had not been much lojs business to employ his thoughts upon the subject Of that measure, still, if it ever came again to be discussed in Parliament, he would be able to shew that his arguments had as many adherents in the country as those of the disciples of the Right Ho nourable Gentleman .who brought in the Bill origi nally. With respect to the attack made on the Peti tioners that night, he thought it had been highly unwarrantable, and he trusted enough had been said to shew that there was not the smallest ground for the ridicule of the Hon. Member. This subject, so distressing and grave in its nature, had been treated with a levity of which he could not help complain ing. He concluded by repeating his desire, that his Majesty's Ministers would, early in the Session, adopt the inquiry prayed for. Mr. J. SMYTH said he felt it imperative upon him to state some facts connected with the Petition, which he believed were known only to himself. He was convinced that his Honourable Friend (Mr. Grenfell) erred with respect to the way in which the Petition had originated, merely through ignorance. He was sure he could not say an unkind thing of any of the very respectable characters whose names were signed to that Petition, if he were not misinformed . The fact was, that the Petition had originated with a merchant of the first eminence, of large fortune, great talents, and excellent character ; a merchant who was' not connected with any of those persons who engaged in speculation, but one who, if he did enter into such speculations, had means to carry him through them. With respect to what had been re ported of the interference of the Noble Lord, he could confidently say there was no truth whatever in it. He (Mr. Smyth) was called upon by the Gen tleman 'he had described, upon the subject of the Petition, on Wednesday last. He was a person who did not take any part in politics, but if he had any feelings on the subject, they were not in favour of Ministers. In the conversation which he (Mr. Smyth) had with that Gentleman, not only the other topics to which the Petition was said to refer were omitted, 'but he could positively state, that the Bullion ques tion was not introduced. The principle on which be (Mr. Smyth) was applied to for his support to the Petition, was the decline of trade, and the failure of ) propositions which had been previously made in Par ' liainent, with a view to the investigation of the causes of such decline, one of which propositions had failed, because it was said to involve political doctrines ; and another, because the mover unhappily entertained some erroneous notions with tto the mode of ameliorating the conditions Me lower classes of society. The Petition before the House was, there fore, drawn up with a view to the exclusion of all political matter, and all party feelings. Certaini#; 'great exertions were made to procure signatures ins- Aiedintely, but that was occasioned by the lateness of the period when it was first thought of ; for he could positively affirm, that until a day or two ago It had never been contemplated by the author Of it. _lf, therefore; exertion had not been made , it anild not have been presented before the adjournment of the ~ • . lipase. Al to bioltoilo64;ttri d ia/r. en • . iretoo Ne*Was convinced \hit he knew nothing_of it earlier than yesterday.' He (Mr. Smith) had been applied to, in order to name a fit person to present the Peti-, ton. Ile mentioned the name. of the Member for Taunton (Mr. Baring), but that Gentleman could pot littend. He then thought of another :Honourable' leitd,-then at hisiight hind Mr. =eel, but for 'some reason he did not Undertake it. It vitas after• wards that it was put into tilt/lands of the Ronan,. able Gentleman wholiad jiist presented it. As to the signatuies, they were of the most iespectable class. He was sure the Member for Marlow (Mr. larenfell) had not seen them, 9r he would have been Surprised that so many very respectable names could have been procured in so short a time. He ' trusted Oat the objections which Ministers had made to other proposals would not be found applicable to this Pe tition, and he thought that the immediate effect of its reception would be to afford a ray of hope to those who were suffering from the pressure of the times—(Hear, heat). Mr. RICARDO said, that he could not subscribe to some of the opinions expressed by the Hon. Gen demon who present& the Petition, especially that on the effect of the change of currency. He said it was to be remembered, that when the House went into the inquiry on the Bullion Question, the differ ence between the market and the Mint price of gold was only fivb per cent. and now, when this country was found to be in great distress, the Hon. Member thought proper to fix upon the state of the currency to account for it, and ascribed all the distress. of all the countries in the civilized world to the fact of our having, in so slight a proportion, altered our cur rency. He (Mr. Ricardo) did not think the cause specified adequate to the effect. Another of the to. pics, adverted to in the speech of the Hon. Member, wits the plan for the payment of the National Debt. He (Mr. Irving) had stated, that it did not possess the merit of. originality. He was willing to allow that it did not, and when he (Mr. Ricardo) had men tioned that plan, upon a former Occasion, he had ob served, that it did not originate with him ;—that persons, previous to his existence, had contemplated a similar mode of paying off the National Debt.— As the opinion which he had given on that occasion had been misunderstood, he wished to take the pre sent opportunity of saying a few words in explain .ion of it. There existed, at present, an inadequacy in the capital of the country to employ its popula tion, and the great question was, how had that capi tal been rendertd -so inadequate at this time ? To solve that question, it was to be observed, that when ever the profits of capital are low t in this country, and high in others, there is a natural tendency for capital to go out of this country. This was as clear and plain a proposition as any in Euclid. The evils consequent upon such state of circumstances, the in terference of the Legislature had rather aggravated than repressed. He thought the Corn Bill an in stance in point. He knew that it was not popular in that House to oppose its principle ; but he felt that he would not be doing justice to himself if he did not avow the sentiment which he entertained respect ing it. It certainly aggravated the tendency to send capital out of the country, and how did it produce that effect? It raised the price of an essential neces sary of life. The price of lahnur W 26 consequently raised, and that raised the expense upon the em ployment of capital, 'or lowered its profits. Thus the evil was increased. As to .the National Debt, it was unwise in principle—(icar, hear). — True economy consisted in paying off debts as they arose, and not in allowing them to accumulate. We were now in the latter state, and it was to be-lament-I, ed, but how to get out of it was the point to be con -1 sidered. If 'the accumulation of the debt had been false economy, it was wise to pay it off. The doing so would take away the temptations to the removal of capital. Every portion of capital removed from the country, increased the taxes and burdens which the rest had to bear. To obviate duke evils, he had proposed that an account should be taken f all the capital in the country, and that it should be assessed in a proportionate amount to the discharge of the debt—(Hear). —He was aware it might be considered an extravagant project; but he saw no difficulty in it. It would certainly be a gigantic operation. In three or four years it might be completed, and a paper currency might be created for that particular purpose, which would facilitate the object. This could be done by giving to persons entitled to the debt, checks for the payment of the taxes which the contributors were to pay. It would prevent de• mand upon the capital for that purpOse—(Hear).— Having stated thus much, he wished to say some thing relative to what had fallen from the Honour able Member respecting a free trade. He had no doubt, that if commercial relations were brought be fore a Committee, that it would be found there were certain prohibitions in trade, which it might be de- . sirable to get rid of. In this he (Mr. Ricardo) agreed with him, if such a subject were only looked at in a partial way. But the whole system ought to be viewed together—and that system was not to be got rid of. It it were even bad in all respects, it was so engrafted on the relations of society, that it was not to be done away unless by very slow degrees. The Honourable Member who presented the Petition, had given an opinion that some modification ought to be adopted as to the price or time in which the payments by the Bank were to be. made, in order to redress the state of currency, and that the Bank ought not to, be obliged to pay, until the market price of gold fell to the Mint price—but he was of a contrary opi nion. He thought the more gradually the-prices were assimilated the better. The only modification necessary, he conceived to be, that the payments should continue in bullion, and not be made in coin. He never could see any good reason for adopting that expensive circulating medium called coin.- r - Paper would answer quite as well, when there was a proper security for its value; and it would be better s as the Bank had interest upon all the paper which it could keep in circulation. He therefore thought, that if any modification were to take place, in respect to the laws orating the currency, it should, be to make them permauent, instead of being temporary, regulations. It.hod also been said, that it would be better to adopt two metals than one for the purpose that would be returning to comparative bar birisni from a state of civiliFatiun., The essential point in all contracts was , " that they 'should. be.lnina )de fulfilled at the precise time contracted for. When there was only one metal, there could be but one va• •i 4 a 1 • i n ao n C il n i t i n ; n r !quadri; u Mo t an d eat% were a letel tender. the currency-wad he liable to tPio variitions ; and if three or more, the chances of variation would be sot c w o rva m si dr r commercial hwitriable multiplied in proportion, and the inconveniences in liable on. , il si go r a t ir l , u nlied c cto op l i p u eZ, 6117 1 rtl- a ss i saying, that he would give' hiS support to the Com mimttere. firnmayed:Afyorb—oreheveestxpimecteondy'itotavotheolied respectability of the names signed to the Petition. He alloived that he had spoken to many merchants who had not heard t a 3c - b v°7 : .. l F iyu ltfa li i r jo ber ilds of it, and that there had been accusations thrown out in certain quarters, but they were not successful; as to , the subject of inquiry, and the mode of it, he said, he was not then prepared to give his opinion. It was a difficult subject. But he believed that all that Government could in general do for commerce, was to preserve the internal tranquillity of the coun try, and allcw the operations of trade as.much free dom as possible. He said, that the measures just passed for the purpose of restoring that tranqpillity, were more for the advantage of the people than of the Government. He asserted, that commercial dis tress arose from speculation and over-manufacturing, and not at all from taxation, which he endeavoured to prove, by stating, that in most of our manufac tures, even in the cotton trade, where distress was greatest, we were enabled to undersell• foreign ma nufacturers, even in their own markets. He denied that the poor of this - country, though in a heart !ending state of misery, were as badly off as the poor in Germany and many parts of the Continent. Mr. GRENFELL, in explanation, said, that lit had been accused of having spoken with disrespect of those merchants whose signatures were to the Pe. tition. If any such expression had fallen from him, he was extremely sorry for it ; but he was not aware that there had. Within the last ten minutes he had seen the names, and found they were highly re spectable. What he had before stated, only applied to the manner in which he understood the signatures to have been obtained. Mr. DOUGLAS observed, that the Petition di not profess itself to be from the Merchants am Traders of the City of London. It only said, fror certain Merchants, &c.' He thought it the duty Government to consider of the present distresses, 'the country. Mr. BROUGHAM said, he would not enter intc the wide, and almost boundless, field of discussion which had arisen in the Petition; but with respect to the distinct question, he would say a few wort,. The Mai. and Learned Gentleman then animadverted strongly upon the manner in which his Hon. Friend, the Member for Marlow (Mr. Grenfell), had com mented upon the signatures to the Petition. He paid a high compliment to the character and talents one of the Petitioners, a Mr. Macauley, and said, appeared one of the names was that of his Hot, Friend's (Mr. Grenfell) brother —( A laugh concluded by saying, that it was not his intention propose any measure to Parliament respecting commercial distress of the country. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that entering into any large field of inquiry would tend to disturb 's public confidence, and therefore aggravate the evi under which the country laboured. He said the Pt tition was very respectably -signed, and expressed hi willingness to pay attention to any precise and prac. tical plan of inquiry that Honourable Members might propose, but would not commit himself, at present, as to any particular plan on that subject. With - spect to the bullion question, he deprecated any mea. sure which might tend to disturb or unsettle the regu lations within which the Legislature had confined it. Mr. ELLICE said, that the signatures were most respectable, but he thought that it could not be dent or useful to embark upon a sea of inquiry. expressed astonishment that Ministers declined propose any plan, and left such an essential part their duty to be performed by others. Mr. Alderman WOOD would assure the House that the signatures to the Petition were all highly spectable, and he felt confident that the Petitioners had no other object in view than an inquiry into r' state of the Manufactures. Mr. Alderman HEYGATE gave also his mony in favour of the respectability of the tioners. He took this opportunity of stating, in his opinion, the great cause of the distress of country was he diminution which had taken in the circulation. That diminution affected maierially the National Debt, added to the weigi of taxation, and impaired the facility, of operation in trade. He was confident that if the lic were assured that the diminution in the ciri tion had reached its last point, the distress would find its termination. The Petition was then laid on the table, and dered to be printed. LOCAL JEIRISDICTIONS. Mr. SCA RLETT obtained leave to bring in a Bill to certain inconveniences in local and exclusive Jurisdictions. Bill was then brought in, read a first time, ordered to be second time on Thursday, the 15th of February, and printed. The. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER brought , an Account of the Duties paid upon Hops in 1819. • The Ibuse, at a Quarter past Seven, adjourned to Thursday 'next. The Literey Gazette, No. 153, published this day, contains, besides the Index for the Year, a full Analysis of the Story and very copious Extracts from the admirable forthcoming Novel of Ivanhoe, by the Author of " Waverley"—Review '-" the Antiquities of Pols, and curious Account of the lachians, a People of Dalmatia—Beautiful Episode of . nosti, f ro m Anastasius—Corroboration of the Opinion seated by the View of the Painted Chamber, that Oil Painth. was known long before the received era of that inventioo.-- Poetry, from the pen of Walter Scott, an original—Dramatic Criticism—and the usual variety of literary, scientific, atnusing matter.—The Proprietors confidently assert, th Work will be found to contain a more Complete Record Literature, Arts, Sciences, and general Intelligence of the than any contemporary Publication Whatever. In thtei it has given ample Reviews of about Six Hundred New -Sixty Original Biographical Memoirs of Eminent PersOns, have died during that time; Descriptions of all remarkable Scientific Inventions; Notices of Philosophical Discoveries; Criticisms upon every Exhibition or Production of the deserving of attention; lemarks on the Drama at horn( slimed ; a View of Foreign Literature; Essays, 'Sketches Society, Anecdotes, Jena-teesPrit, and other light Reading, an extent that woidd ban many , common-sued volumes, which only serve asvatietitt in the closel y p rinted columns of Literary Gasette.—Subscribers Who desire to ilegip with the Year, will please to give their orders early to any News-vender o r lii:oksellet tO prevent disappointment, as only. a limited ad ditive will be made to supply suck demand,. nukes 'amount is previously ascertained--The Nice of each \ Publication is Sd. or Is. with a Stamp for the immediate OLLS9IOII by the Post to any part of the Country. • if • • c- ( as t•• 101' he • /, 'e• m, ire ad re- ied res did and om of of '1 nto • I lion )ect rds. rted end, om- paid s of i, it ion. —He ou to the into ) the evils e Pe- d his prat- • night esent, th re- • mea-. regu- it. - most pru. He ied to art of House ily re- ioners no the Peti- • , that, of the ) place d very weight every ke Pub- Id soon Ind or- -3 remedy ns. The be read a ud to be •ought up Thursday • • contains, the Story thcoming Review of he for. of Asag- nion lug- Painting ventios.- -Dramatic ific, and , that this rd of the ;he Times tee years w Books; wins, Who emarkahl• coteries; the Arts home and tetches of Wading, to unws i but inns of The I the gew - !wil-vender limited ad- • I S 6s a larger ch Werkly diste trat,- 1