Star. — London, England, 1807-04-14 00:00:00

that country. Was it confillent with common fenfe or policy, that they fhould be precluded from filling thofe fituations in one part of the empire to which they were eligible in the other ? He could not admi that the bill had been unneceffarily brought forward. Minifters conceived that a folemn pledge had been given to affimilate the Englifh law to the Irifh Ad of 1793, and it was to redeem this pledge that the mea lure was fubmitted to Parliament.' It was not their intention to renew the fubjed. They agreed to re linquifh it the moment they found his Majefty enter tained ftrong objections to it. He lamented thaffuch a fpirit Mould have been excited throughput the country on this occafion, as thete appeared to be, and that the motives and intentions of the late Mini- Hers fhould have been fo grolsly mifreprefented. The whole of the motion of the Noble Marquis had his concurrence, and that part of it, in particular, which expreffed the regret of their Lnrdfhips at the recent change in his Majefty's Councils. This was a feel ing in which he was perfoaded a very great majority of the country would be found to agree with him. Lord ERSKINE faid, that much rnifreprefentation had gone forth refpeding the caufes of the difmiffal of the late Adminiftration. The effect, however, which waT produced by thefe mifreprefentations, was a contemptible triumph, which could not be expell ed to be very Idling. The fads, the true Rate of the cafe, might be brought before their Lordfhips in a few minutes. The Noble Earl who had juft fpoke anticipated much of what he had intended to fay. It was not neceffary for him to recal to their Lordfhips' recollection the long lift.of difabling Statutes, which weighed for fo many years on the people of Ireland, and which were fwept away by the beneficent re commendation from the Throne in 1793. The Ad of 1793 threw open the army and navy to the Ca tholics. When the late Minifters were called to his Majefty's Councils, they felt themfelves in a ♦ery particular fituation. They felt it to be their duty to increafe the force of • the country by all poffible modes. They came to the Government at a molt awful moment. They were in hopes to counterba lance the enormous power of France by acquifitions in other parts of the world ; by diflant expeditions, which could not be undertaken without combining the force of the empire. There was no way by which this great object could be fo effectually pro moted as by conciliating the population of Ireland. By the mt of 1793, an frith Catholic might be an Enfign, a Lieutenant, a Captain; in short, he might rife through all the military gradations even to the rank of a General, without putting the Royal con fcience to any inconvenience ; but, if once he were to become a General on the Staff, then the King's confcience is faid to be touched, and the Coronation Oath broken. Was it pollible that fuch fentiments could be entertained by any perfons claiming to pa cers common underftanding ? He would be the Taft man in the kingdom who would with to fee the King reduced to a cypher. He would be the Taft man in the kingdom who would with to fee the prerogative deftroyed. He was anxious that his Majefly Ihould receive the honour of fuch ads as had for their ob ject the cafe and fatisfadion of the people, and that, when any thing was wrong, the blame fhould fall on others. The Bill which was brought forward he would admit went beyond the Ad of 1793 ; but was it poffible for any fair or candid man to lay, that the firft was not an infringement of the Coronation Oath, and that the latter was? His Majefty could have no determination inconfiftent with his duty, and the ad vantage of his people. It was true that a urifconcep lion exifted with regard to the nature of the Minifiers conceived they had his Majefty's fandion, when they in fad had it not. As loon as they found out they were miftaken in this refpelt, what could they do more than abandon the Bill ? It might be afked, if they confidered it expedient, why did they confent to abandon it ? To this he would anfwer, that there was a great difference between a queftion of political expediency, and imperious neceffity ; the former might be abandoned, the latter could not. — It was to preferve the power of meeting an ex treme cafe of this kind, that minifters referved to themfelves the right of prcipofing this fubjed, when ever it fkould become indifpenfably neceffary. He could not conceive what there was offenfive in this manly and fair refervation. He would live and die in the opinion, that the difmiffal of the late Mini Hers was not occafioned by this refervation. It wan fo unlike that fairnefs, that candour and fimplicity which charaderifed every aft of his Majefty's life, that it was impoftihle he could be offended with the perfons he had called to his Councils, for the honeft and manly expreffion of their opinion. No, this re fervation could not be the caufe. He had reafon to believe, that the Adminiftration had been doomed to diffolution for fome time before it was actually dif miffed. He would not take upon him to infmuate any thing againft the declaration which any Noble, Lord might have made, or might chafe to make, in that Houle, or elfewhere, or what any Noble Perron might affert upon his honour in another place. Ha had, however, his own feelings and fentiments on that point. He knew that there were wheels within wheels in public life, as many as were to be found in a filk mill, and that many perfons were fo deep in the dark, that it was impoffible to dilcover their traces. For himfelf, he was no party to that refer. vation ; nor wa♦ he privy to the Minute of Council, to which fuch ltrong exception had been taken, but he was aftor.ifhed that either of thefe fhould be al figned as the caufe of difmiffal. Surely, it would be time enough for his Majefty to remove the perfons who had fubmitted this reprefentation to him, in what they conceived to be a confcientions difcharge of their duty, when he found that they brought for ward fuhjeds which were difagreeable to him. A Noble Earl had Rated, that his Majefly had no other advifer on this orcafion than his confctence, and that if an addrefs fhould be voted, no other anfwer could be given. Should any filch ant %er be given—fhould it be laid that it was a monition—that was a quef tion to he fettled in the large Hall adjacent and not . there. Much had been faid • about the Coronation Oath. He was no friend to the Bill, but it never entered his mind that the Coronation Oath had any thing to do with ir. What was the Coronation Oath ? Was the Coronation Oath only confined to the Church ? Did not his Majefly fwear to govern ac cording to the laws and conftitution of the Realm, and was it part of the Conflitution to require a pledge ? He denied that this was the Aft of the Xing. It Mould not be permitted to be faid that the .. thing was wron,.and then that the King 1.6 To reafon in this way, was little lets than-1. He trolled, that there never would bra copsnu. in Ireland ; but if there was, that the people woo. recolleet what his Majefty had done for them. We lived in fearful times. He hoped for the deliverance of Europe; he hoped that the power of that man, rwho had fhaken half the thrones in Europe, was on the wane; he trolled that the brave Ruffians would keep him at bay where he was. One Petition from the Catholics had been rejected; another might (hare the fame fate ; a third might be put under the table, but were they to have no peefpeeive view ? Were they to be told, let who will be Minifters, you never can have any hope of redrefs. He could not fuppofe his Majelly delivering a bill of fare to his Minifters; (hewing to them the minutes of the Council, and raying to them. .!g keep clear of that rock, and you are fafe. But the Coallitution is not fafe. With regard to the Catholic queftion, as it was called, he would confefs that in its molt extenfive fignification he was noifriend to it. There was no man more devoted to true faith and religion than he was. He confidered the Refor mation as one of the greaten benefits that Providence, -in its bounty, had ever difpenfed to mankind. It pot an end to the fuperitilions of the Catholic religion, and did more by that means towards enlightening mankind, than philofophy had ever been able to ef feet. He never wifhed to fee a revival of the ages of bigotry, intolerance, and fupernition, and he there fore felt it to be his duty to oppofe whatever had a tendency to reftore them. It was upon thefe prrn ciples that he was oppofed to the introduction of this act. He would not fay that his oppolition might n ht be the refult of the prejudice of his education.— What his Majelly raid to him on this or on any other occafion, was fpoken as to a wall. He would riot be guilty of the indecorum of ever alluding to it, even tor the purpofe of removing the grofs mifreprefenta tions and mifconceptions which exitled with refpea to this bufinefs. The Royal power he confidered as the key none of the arch of the Conftitution. When the King falls, every thing falls with him—individu als, orders, eftablifhments, nay, the (late and confli lotion themfelves. He would give his vote for the queftion, and his thanks to the Noble Marquis who I hrought it forward. It would ill become him to fay any thing of that Admininration of which he com p/Ad fo humble a part. The public had, he believed' derived fame advantages from its labours, and he was perfuaded that their difmitlal was not feen with out Tome (hare of regret. The Earl of JERSEY fupporred the motion. He was furprifed at the alarm which-had beenitoo fuccefs. fully excited on this queftion. The very principle which it was now endeavoured to beat down was ap proved of by molt of the Members of the prefent Go vetnment. Lord HA RROWBY obferved, that the only docu ments which their Lordfhips had on this occafion, were verbal declarations, reports of the febnance of minutes not before the Houfe, and the refolts of the impreffions of converfations. Upon fuch frail and uncertain authorities, it would be an as of no ordi nary imprudence to decide, whether any pledge bad 'been required, whether any had bten given, or to fay that the Minifters were right, and that the King was in the wrong ! The point was one of the utmoft deli cacy, inelastic!) as it affetted the perfonalconfequence of the Sovereign. There never was an occafion on which greater precifion was required. He would call the attention of their Lordfhips to the progrefs of the Bill. Firft, the meafure was brought forward as part of the Mutiny Bill. Was that, he would afk, to com. prehend the Navy alfo, and to cover the meafure which was afterwards brought forward ? It was Paid to be a continuance of the engagement made in 1793, yet when coupled with the nature of the notice given and with the Bill itfelf, nothing could be more diffe rent. The principle of the meafure did not appear to have been ever rightly undernood- It was hated to be to remove Come ieftrielions, and retain others. But was this explained to his Majefty ? It was known his Ma jelly did not fo underhand it : It was known the Irifh Government did not fo underhand it. It was known feveral Members in the Cabinet, particularly a Noble Vifcount in his eye (Lord Sidmouth) did not fo underhand it, and that if they did they would have oppofed it. All the explanations" which he had heard on this fubjet were unfatisfaaory. The Noble Lord who was fuppofed to know molt about it, did not fay that he had his Majefty's confent to the left mealtime, but that the original content, which was given to a much more limited meafure, had not been withdrawn. Had they not, he would afk, a written declaration, all thal time in their poffeffion, from his Majefly, in which it was fated that he could not go one Rep fatther than the Irifh AH ? Was it to be inferred from thence, that he would go much far ther, and was his confent to be implied from his dif approbation ? His Majelly, it was evident, declared his decided difapprobation of the meafure. Was it therefore furpriling that having once done fo, he did not embrace every opportunity of repeating it ? When implications of content were thus inferred, it was natural that his Majelly fhould require for him fell and his confcience Tome refpite. As to the Co ronation Oath, he would not oppofe his opinion to that of the Noble and Learned Lord. The inter pretation of that mull reit in his Majelly's own breaft. He could not agree to thofe panegyrics which were pronounced refpeaing the merits of the late Admi ninration. When he looked to their diftribution of the naval and military force ; to the many expedi tions they had fitted out ; to their orders and counter orders; to their foreign policy ; to their efforts to affi ft that corner of Europe firuggling for its exinence; to their negociation with France, which had no pa. relict but their negociation with the King, he could not perceive any very ftrong proofs that they en groffed, as it was Paid, all the talents, wildom, and confideration of the country ! He did not fear that the country would fupport the prefent Adminillre tion. When the. queftion was properly undernond, when the principles upon which they accepted office were fully explained, he was perfuaded they would meet with ample fupport. The prefent Minihers Rood forward for their King, andwith their King theywould Rand or fall. The Earl of SELKIRK (poke generally againft the motion. He condemned the indifcretion of his Majefty's late Minifters, in bringing, forward a mea 1-ore which his Majelly had declared from the begin ning he felt a reluctance in acceding to, and (aid . he thought they had (hewn themfelves equally injudi cious in the manner in which they had conduaed the 7 .4tefs. He expreffed hit. ditaprenbation ..ay fit which the late Minifiets had declared .ir intention of bringing the Catholicoitrellion to asted from time to time, and giving their advice thereon. It was certainly proper that' Minitlers flufuld give their advice to his Majefly on all fubje&t of im portance, hut this quetlion was of a nattereirhich preffed in f peculiar a manner on his Majefty's mind, and on which he had always fhewn himlelf fo tender on account ofhis Coronation-oath. that he thought they fhould have a6Rained from preffing it on his Ma jetty, except only in a cafe of ablolute neceffity. He thought the maxim of the Conftitution, that " the King can do no wrong," was a very good one ; it laid down this plain doctrine, that his Majeßy cannot do any thing without a public advifer, and this doc trine applied to him very properly in all public acts of government. Any thing he did in that capacity was not fuppofed to emanate from himfelf, but from fame perfon who advifed him to it. He was of opi nion however, that it was impoflible their Lordfhips fhould think of adopting a Parliamentary proceeding, founded on an aft which it was impotlible Parliament fhould precifely know fo as to form a fair and candid judgment on it. The public were certainly in pof fellion of the faB, that a pledge had been required, but without knowing why this pledge - had been de manded. It mull be neceffary to Mk, what was the objet of the motion ? There could be no doubt that befoie this unfortunate difouffion took place, .it ap pealed clear to all that the late Minifiers - pcsffeffed the united confidence of the King and the Country. After the objetlions made by his Majetly, and the. refervation which had been given in by the late Mi. nillers, it was impoffible they could any longer pot. fefs the confidence of the King. He had no doubt but the public were well aware of the great talents of the late Miniliers ; but he was certain that they, as well as he, could never have fuppofed they would have aged with fo much indifcretion. He ahought therefore, that taking all circumflances under his fe rious confideration, there could be no occafion for the prefent motion. He mull call it to the recollec tion of their Lnrdfhips, that one of the moll impor tant of his Majefty's prerogatives was that of chu- Ling his own fervent.. His Majeßy had lately ex ercifed that undoubted and undenied right, and had called the prefent Minillers to his Councils. Thefe Minifters were as yet untried, and he thought they ought to have an opportunity of Chewing how they would conduit themfelves. It had been affunted that this difmilfal of Minifiers had been the refult of opinions, proceeding from onions who fecretly ad vifed his Majetly to the adoption of a meafure for which there was no one who was refponfible. He did not fee any reafon to fuppofe this was the cafe. His Majeßy appeared to have afted on an impulfe, which dictated ftrong . ly to him the neceffity of not having his mind continually haraffed by a repetition of a meafure to which he felt fo much reluaance— and after the reprefentation which had been given in, he had no fecurity of that not being the cafe, but in obtaining the pledge that had been required—that not having been complied with, he could place no further confidence in men fo determined, and made, therefore, a choice of thole, whore principles and con duit he thought fuch as would relieve him from thofe vexations which the repetition of this particular fob. jai could not fail to export him to. For thefe rea fons he fhould vote againft the motion. Lord BORRINGDON Paid, he thought the refo lution propnfed was much too algae and indefinite, and as loch he fhoold, before he fat down, make a motion for the purpofe of getting rid of it without coming to any refolution on the fubjea. The latter part of it, he thought, was a kiad of furprize on the Houle, and he was cf opinion that none of it was called for by any circumftances which could induce the Houle to come to any refolution. It was in his mind a propofition which their Lordlhips ought to entertain with much caution, as it related fo very nearly and particularly to the perfonal condua of the King. A pledge had been required from his Majefty's late Minifters, refpeaing the bringing forward a par ticular queftion ; and it had been affumed that the prefent Miniflershad entered into Come fuch pledge. He believed, however, from the declaration of the Noble Secretary of State below him, that no fuch pledge had been given by the prefent Minifters.- - Indeed, there could be no occafion for asking it, for they had never litewn themlelves favourable to the Catholic quell ion. He was alfo adverfe to the pro. poled Refolution on another ground. He did not think it would be binding on the Houfe. Their Lord fhips would recollea, that in the reign of (kneen Eli zabeth, that Houfe came to a refoluuon, while at war with Spain, that the. country should make no peace with.a prince of the Houfe of Bourbon, yet the Qiiieen and her Minifters made peace very loon afterwards, and the refolution of the Houle was fo much ware paper, and no more. He was ready to abfolve the late Minifters from the imputation which had been charged upon them, with haYing attempted to force ou the King any meafure that militated againfl his feelings or his confcience ; but he could not abfolve them from negligeme and inattention in the mode in which they had cond select themfelves. He adverted particularly to the uncertainty and ambiguity con tained in the Irifh Difpatch, and thought them blameable in endeavouring to obtain his Majefty's opinion through the medium of a draft of a dif patch. He thought, if the Noble Lord at the bead of the late Adminifiration had openly and candidly communicated dirtaly with his Majeßy on this important and delicate fubjea, the late mifunder ftanding could not have happened. As to the pledge about which fo much had been Paid, he would afk, whether, under all the circumßances which had been Rated, it was very extraordinary the King fhould re quire fuch a fecurity to his peace of mind, and to the dictates of his confcience, after the reprefentation which had been given by the late Minißers ; and that, after a refufal of fuch pledge, his Majeßy fhould be defirous and anxious to look for other fcr. vants who would not treat him in a fintqar manner. What did the late Minifters fay tefpeaingthis pledge? Why, that it was not fit to be given ; they introdu ced, therefore, the refervation, as a fort of counter poife, and by fo doing made it in Come degree in cumbent upon his Majeßy to call to his Councils other men, with whom he could aft more in unifon. It had been more than once infinuated, that this change had , beep brought about by ferret advifers.— It did not, however, appear br the nutmeat made by the Noble Lord (Grenville) before the recefs, that even the fmallett infiuuation could ever be made that the King had aged in this manner by the ed„ vice of any perEnn whatever. Much had been { l i d its to the effed;This wouid have on the Roman C A . tholics of Ireland : he hoped, however, that wh y that body of men rtfleded on the many difabiliti es which had been removed by the gracious favour and ' rosalterceallon of his prefent Majetly, who had, from the commencement of his reign, (hewn himfelf deQ. eons to ad as far as poffible fo r their relief, they would remember this gracious regard to their fitua. Lion, and would not be angry when they fay their complaints were not fet afide from any cabal, but that they would accordingly conform themfelves in fuch a manner, as to evince that they have a true fenfe of their own cafe, and are convinced that no intention remains in his Majefty but to maintain the oath he had taken at his Coronation. Feeling that the motion included a ~perfonal- inculpation of the King for the exercife of bti , undoubted prerogative, he could by maims affent, tolt, and would there. fore conclude by moving, 41 that the Houfe do now adjourn." . - The quellioa hawing been read froni the - woolfack, Lord KINNAIRD laid, he was fomewhat fur prifed and forty to hear the fentiments exprefred in the Noble Lord's fpeech, but more particularly th e latter part of it, in which he Paid that the Catholics would not be angry when they faw their complaint: were ddramovled to.from any intrigue or cabal, but that they mult folely attribute it to the will of his Majefty. This, bethought, was not the happieft way of reconciling that large bbe g y of men to the oppofition made to their claim", nor of conciliating `their affedioni, which had been weakened by re. peatod difappointraents. The Noble Lord had told their- Lordiltipo, that he objeded to the Itcfolu. tion becaukit_ukkLaraa..4aawbinding.; and he hg quoted an inilance of 'a Refolution paired by the Houle about two centuries ago, that they would not make peace with a Prince of the Houfe of Bourbon, though the Queen and her Minifters did very fool' after make peace with a Prince of that Houle. He did not fee how this applied at all to the prefent cafe, or why,. if a Refolutiun of former times had been departed from, and thereby rendered of no avail, thd Houle fluuld not, at a fubfequent period of time, pafs any Refutation which a prefent cafe might re quire. The Noble Lord then addreffed himfelf to the Earl of Selkirk, and exprefred himfelf truly and fincerely lorry to perceive that Noble Earl had become fo eafy a convert to the rapport of his Majefty's pre fent Minifters ; and that he had exerted thole great , talents for which he (Lord Kinnaird) had fo red a refpei in calling for the confidence of the H'onfe f on the ground that thofe new Minifters were untried Much as he refPeeted the Noble Earl, and highly ar he valued his talents, he could not, however, agret with him in that particular, of their being untried. — If he looked to the Noble Duke at the head of the prefent Adminiftration, no one could fay he was un tried. He had been in repeated Adminiftrationc, none of which had effc&ed any verygreat advantages to their country during their continuance. Uhe looked to the Noble Secretary of State for the Home De-1 partment, he ton well knew the effea his former di plomatic cordua had had on all our Allies, to draw li any favourable concluons from it ; and that if ie did not aflame a more favourable afpeet, it could not fail to merit Al the wit and humour which his Right Hon. Colleague, the prefent Foreign Secre tary', had then fo profofely bellowed upon it. if he looked to the Noble Lord at the head of the War and Colonial Department, he had given fuch Rriking fpecimens of the verfatility of his genius, that ke might fafely be fet down as a (offering, careful and attentive guardian, to whom you may, without rifle, commit the care of the virtue and talents of the pre. fent Adminiftration. A Noble Lord, who had fpo. ken laa but one, fpeaking of the talents of the late Minifters bad Aced, in a kind of triumphant ton; what 44 all the talents" had done for the fervice of the _country ? He, for his own part, thought the queftion molt readily anfwered, and highly to the credit and honour of the late Adminiftration. In point of economy, he had ever found them ready to lien to all perfons who were &firm and capable of pointing out any retrenchments. In regard to difpatok of bufinefs, he had teen none equal to them, for they had brought the public bufinefs to a degree of foe wardnefs that was unexampled. That Noble Lord had alto talked of expeditions planned by the late Mini. (lets. He was, however, the laft perfon in the world who fhould talk of expeditions to the Continent, when he recolleCled and maturely confidere4 the mad ex• pedition to which he had been himfelf aparty ; bur,oi the fubjeift of expeditions, he would tell the Nohk Lord, that if one of the greatelt Powers on the Cos• tinent, if Turkey were at this moment at the feet of thit country, loch a glorious event was owing to the wile, politic, and fpirited meafures of the lateAdminifta• tion. He could fay the fame as to Monte Video; and he Ready feared the next thirteen months wouhlnotbe matted by any filch fplendid and important acquire ments from the combined talents and wifdom of the new and untried Miniftry. He was extremely forty to find that attempts had been made to roufe thee(. forts of bigotry and fuperftition, and to re-kinclie the flames of religious animofities. If there were thofe now in being who would carry thole baneful and deftrullive paffions into the very bofom and feats of learning, and would with to revive the brilliant el. ploits of the dark and barbarous ages, let the effedi to be produced by them reft on their own heads. This, he believed, was the firft time that fecret advifers had brought on the downfal of an Adminiftration which enjoyed the confidence of the country, fence the time or that great Statefman Lord Chatham, who had declared, 44 there was a power behind the Throne, greater than the Throne itfelf." Yet before his Adminiftration was in a (*traitor manner overturned, that great and immortal charaaer bad laid the foun dation of drawing into the jervice of the country a large body of the fobjelts °Mee State, againfl whom as many and as violent prejudices exikd as do now exift againft the Catholics of Ireland. During a long time antecedent to his glorious Admini(ltation, the war-whoop and cry of the country had been loudly and conftantlyraifed againft the Jacobitesin the North of Scotland. When that illuftrious Statefman came into office, he found the army in a (late of decay— and how did he raife it ? Not by fomenting the pre judices which were then fo prevalent, but by calling thole very Jacobites into the fervice. He from their ranks recruited the ranks of the army ; and a braver or more loyal let of men never fought with more energy and conitancy the battle, of their country. OD