Star. — London, England, 1807-02-17 00:00:00

great fairners and candour but as for the delay that was afked he would allure the Committee, that if he were to fuppofe that by contenting to thole refolu tions, the Houfe would be pledged and bound to per. fevere in the propoled fyllem without any modifica tion, or if he had the lead idea that it was polliAe that fueh mifery and ruin could refult from it as the Honourable Gentleman on the other fide fuppofed, b e would be the lan man to prefs forward fuch a dif cuftion. He conceived, however, that on the contrary, one of the principal merits of the fyitem was, that though it looked profpatively to the future, it by no means bound the country for the future, not to adopt all the modifications of ir, which the change of circum fiances might require. It would be vain, indeed, to pledge the country for ever to any particular fyf tem. The lyricist of the War Duties had already been fo far departed from, that goo,oool. a year of them had been made permanent. If then he (hould not now (peak of the future advantages which would refult from the fyftem, he (hould fay, that for the pre fent year it would produce great advantages. It was of the greateft advantage that the country (Mould I have at leaft one year of repofe, after the heavy bur-1 dens that had been irnpofed upon it in former years. When Minitters felt ftrongly the advantage of giving the country Come repofe from taxation, it was not with a view of obtaining popularity, but becaufe they thought it to be the belt mode of economizing the re fources of the country. It would allow the country time to recruit its ftrength, and acqui-c new refources. If, when its ftrength was recruited, and its refources increefed, the Houfe fhould think fit to adopt a.iy other rule, or any other fyaem of finance, their tatk would be carter, and the burdens of the country would be lefs felt, on account of the repofe altar this meafure would give to the country, while it continued in operatiJn. As to the objection of the War Duties not being likely to be fo productive if continued in a time of peace, that was no new ob jettion, but one that he had himtelf anticipated in his flatement. He protected againft the notion going abroad, that the preterit fyftem was completely to fetter every defct iptiun of the war taxes. It was judged neceffary to give fume repofe to the country from the perpetually increafing burden of annual taxation : in order to do this, there was no other way but to take the reprefentative value of the loan to be railed from the war taxes now fubfitting. When this plan was objeeled to, what was propofed to be fubitituted in its room ? Why, (imply an addition to the permanent taxes. This propofal, however, (truck at the very principle upon which the plan he propof. ed was founded, for inftead of giving any relief from the trilling preifure, it went to too cafe it. If the only remedy propofed was an addition to the pernta oext taxes, that could be done at any time. There was no particular merit in that fuggeltion. As to the expedient of increafing the permanent taxes, if he might be allowed to fpeak ludicroufly on a ferious ftibjeft, he would fay of it as was mentioned in one of our Poets, of a perfon's (Sir John Cutler's) way of living : • . " Live like you, Sir John, " That I can do when all I have is gone." In the fame way he thould fay, that however defec tive the plan propoled might turn out to be, yet, even if it completely failed, they might then have recourfe to what was now propored in the &ft inaance, the increafing the permanent taxes. The Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Gentleman had both agreed that the revenue might be improved by care and manage anent ; and they furely had no reafon to fuppcfe that care and management would not be ufed by his Majefty's prefent Minillers ; and, therefore, if the fibfiaing duties fhould, on the return of peace, fall Mort cf their prefent amount, it ought to be fuppofed on the other hand, that in other instances the revenue snuuld be improved by the regulations to be adopted. He should firti fpeak of what the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Role) had dwell on at fame length, the means of reprefling fmuggling. He was fuse that this was a rubjeet in which the late Admit• niaration were Aided by men of very confider able talents, and that they had adopted thole mea lures which appeared to them heft to produce the defired effeit. As for his part, he felt himfelf comparatively untutored in this rerpee, and that he had a great deal to learn ; but, front the confi derarion that he had then been able to bellow upon the fubjea, it appeared to him that much might be expeeled from an improved fyftem of reward to thofe employed in the prevention of fmuggling, and making it more their inter& to make difcoveries : to break and dearoy the instruments of fmuggling, to feize the horfes, break the carriages, and have the veffels themfeves confifcated, would do a great deal. He alfo thought a great deal might be done by additional regulations in the regiltry of vet= Eels, and in making the Owners feverally refpon ale. There means •nnuld, as he conceived, elle& a very confiderahle improvement in increafing the revenue and repreffing fmuggling. It was alto to be confidered that, although a large military Oa blifhment in time of peace had its inconveniencies, yet at leaft it could be made available in increafing the revenue, by preventing fmuggling. Thole means of increafing the revenue at leap held out fair ground of hope. He felt himfelf very defireus of explaining an expreflion of hi,, which was =lamed as a poll tive pledge given to the country, that at the expira tion of the war the Property Tax thoold immediately ceafe. It never was his intention to give fuch a fpe cifie promife and pledge, but merely to (late, that the country would poffers fuffizient means and re. fources at the end of the war to repeal the Property Tax, if it were judged expedient to repeal it. He could not pretend to fay what would be the exad circumftances of the country at that period, or what it would then b: advifable to do ; but in that refpeet be would with to be guided, in a great meafure, by what would then appear to be the general feeling of the country n that fubjeft. Jo his own private opi nion, he agreed very much with what had been Dat ed by the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Rofe) that it would perhaps be better to continue a (mall part of the Property Tax, than fame other taxes upon Cunfumption. This would, however, be a queflion which would then he determined by the cir cumftances of the times, and by the judgment and general feeling that would refult from thnfe circum- Dances. independent of the Property Tax, there were new taxes to the amount of nine ns pledged for the future War Loans ; and certainly when peace fhould arrive, there would he little diffi culty in arranging what part of tilde taxes the bar den mild bell he placed on. The Right Honoura ble Gentleman had Rated, that the probable rife of the Funds would he injurinusto the redemption of the caeital. This injury would, however, be only to the redemption of the capital of the debt already in curred, and out of the loans which might be contrael ed for in future. The Noble Lord (Lord Calllereagh) had objefled arongly to the Supplemental Loan=, on the ground that it was borrowing at compound in tereß, but it mull be confidered on the ether hand that the relief of the people from frefh taxes was a benefit in a compound ratio. They were heed from the payment of new taxes ; and the intereß of thole taxes, as well as the profits of the various perms whofe hands they paired through, was alfo fared. He admitted that it was borrowing at compound in tereß, but that confederation was outweighed by the compound benefit which he had (fated. The Noble Lord relied his objeftions on two points prin cipally. Firft, he objeeted to it as legiflating for futurity, and fecondly becaufe he conceived the data that were taken of aftual expenditure fallacious. As to the objeCtion of the War Taxes failing in their produce, if they fhould be continued after the war, that objeetion did not appear to him entitled to much weight ; for, if they fla iuld fail in any inft ince, it would only place the country in the fame neceflity that it is in at this moment of making up for any deficiency by fome other tax. As to the inci cafe of the amount of the expenditure, it was very poffible that it might take place, but he had no other criterion to judge of the -xpence of future years but by the l adual expenditure. He could nut pretend to cal culate for fubfidies or expediri ins to 'he Continent, or any other unforefeen expences. The plan he had the honour of propofing mutt certainly, if adopted, he made applicable to the circumliances of the country. It was not meant to be a plan for confining the exertions or the energies of the country within any fixed limi but it was introduced as a fyftem of financial activity, which was not only to hufband the refources of the country, but to bring them forward, when neceffery, in their fulleß force. By the prefent plan no new taxes would be neceffary for the next three years, and only an addition of 293,0001. in the courfe of the fucceeding (even years, if the war fhould continue ; and after the expiration of thole ten years, from the operation of the Sinking Fund, no new taxes would be necelfary for the ten following years. If he were to ftippole the future expenditute to be higher by two millions annually than it is at prefent, that difference would not at all undermine or make the foundations of the prefent plan. In that cafe, inflead of 300,0001. of frefh taxes in the next ten years, it would be ne ceffary to have sos,cool. and in the fucceeding pe riod of ten years 330,0001. This would be the whole difference which would be made in twenty )ears, upon the fuppofition that the expenditure fhould be higher by two millions than what it is calculated at. But the Noble Lord affumed a pofition which he I could by no means grant him, that there was a right ion the part of the public to dirpore of the excelfes of the Sinking Fund, in any manner that might bell fait the public convenience, without confulting the intereß of the Stockholders, or giving them any com penfdtion for this di "pofition of the fund. He agreed with the noble Lord, that the Sinking Fund, when it was firft eflablifhed by Mr. Pitt, was a mere boon to the Stockholders, and they would have no right to difpute any future difpofition : this was certainly true as to the Subfcribrrs to former Loans, but to all thole who contraded for Loans, after the Sinking Fund was ellablifhed by law, the cafe was different. They gave higher terms for the loan in confequence of the eßablifhment of the Sinkiog Fund, and it would be a violation of public faith and juftice to deprive them of the full advantages of it. The Noble Lord's fyf tern was to take from the Stock-holders what was their tight, without any compenfation. The plan that he propnfed would not touch the Sinking Fund in that manner, nor delay for a tingle moment the redemp tion of the debt, but on the contrary it would accele rate it. By the ntiw fyftem the fublifling debt would be redeemed in tvJenty-four years, whereas by the fyflem in force it would take near thirty, and by the plan propofed by the Noble Lord (Lord Caftlereagh), it would take thirty-two. This was a violation of faith toward. the Strckholders that he could never bring himfelf to cenfent to. The Noble Lord's mode of payirg off the debt put him in mind of the fol lowing lines : " Anxious the public debt to pay, " Like prudent Fabiu., by delay." The Noble Lord was certainly right in laying, that by thole fupplemental loans the whole amount of the money borrowed was greater than if dire& loans had been railed according to the ?relent &item, but he fhould alfo have Rated that the Sinking Fund ap. plicable to the redemption of the debt would be greater. In the cafe of the debts of a nation, as well as of an individual, the means of paying the intereß of the debt fhould be provided fur as well as the debt itfelf. As to the means of the country in meeting a peace etlablilhment, he thought they were as great now as at any preceding time. In the year 1785, our peace eftablifhment colt near five millions, and the revenue applicable to the fupport of it, amounted only to between three and four millions. Mr. Pitt, how-ver, loon found means net only to raife the revenue up to the expenditure, brit to fet apart a million annually for the Sinking Fund, at the clofe r.f the laft war. Mr. Addington WAS able to find refources not only for the peace ellablifbment, but to redeem. the fifty-fix millions, for which the Property 'l'ax was mortgaged, and he could feel no doubt bet that on the return of peace the country would find abundant means and refeurces to fupport whatever peace ellablifhment it might confider neceffa ry. His Lordfhip then begged to call the attention of the Committee to No. 8, of the Noble Lord's (Cattle reagh) refolution. By thi ,it was flared, that a fum of t t,000,c001. a year, required in aid of the twenty one million of war taxes, to complete the War Ex• peaditure of 22,000,0c01. might be railed according to the following mode, without mortgaging the war taxes, or rendering new taxes of any greater amount neceffary. The bums requited to provide for A Loan of ri,oco,coc.l. per annum, fur 20 years is Ll 4 666,660 The resources available amount to - 13 856 o6t Which left a deficiency of 809,7991. ; which-defi ciency exceeding only by 3694311. the charges for Supplementary Loans, would remain an additional charge to be provided for. A fame more ruinoru than this he thought could not well he imagined, 1 , r the Nnble Lurd would, in 1826, have a cirbt of 273.560,5311. with a Sinking Fund of 8,000,0001. which bore nirproportion.ta the living which would accrue to the public by following the plan which was detailed in the Refolutions then under the confidera thin of the Houle. The fecond plan of ti.e Noble Lord, he faid, was detailed in No. 9 ; which Rated, that when the loan of the year in war does no: ex coed the amount of the Sinking Fund in the faid year, inftead of making., provifion for the intereft of the laid loan by new taxes, the fame 'hook) be provided for by and out of the interett receivable on the amount of Rock in that year redeemed by the Commitlinners of the Nati , nal Debt, in which cafe the amount of the debt unredeemed would continue ltationary during the war. The Sinking Fund was at prefent L 58,515,042 It would be, in all ' 11,14;274 That the charges for four years Loan, as above, for eleven millions in each, taking credit for 385,5151. Annuities, amounted to 2,547,8101. Taxes required for the next four year: would amount to 626,9701. fa that the Noble Lord propofed to continue borrow. ing or, the old plan, till the Sinking Fund was equal to .he debt. He would want taxes for the &II tour years to the amount of nearly 700,0001. and as foon as the Sinking Fund reaches the amount of the loan, he would appropriate the produce to his own ufe, and l e t f r ee the Sinking Fund. The Nable Lord, by this, excluded from his confideration the increafe of the expenditure, and went on increafing the debt, with out increafing the means to nay it, by which means it might happen that the principal might fail at the very moment when we flood moll in need of it. —He was now come to No. to, which was the lath refolution. The Noble Lord fuppofed 1 z,000,c001. to be railed, and that the interelt and Sinking Fund for one year, w ,uld be 1,z00,0001. To cover that interell and Sinking Fund at fix per cent. a fund of 72,0001. might be provided, which being railed on ' a one per cent. Sinking Fund, might be contidered as an annuity fur for ty-three years, and would amount to 43,344,0001. , In this flatement the Noble Lord had Wien into an extraordinary error ; he had added 1 two amounts together, as a whole charge of the fame 1 account, whtn the fad was, that one was borrowed to pay the other. As if a fum of money was bor rowed from A. by B. and another film borrowed af terwards by B. front C. for the purpufe of paying A. he made thole two borrowings diliind accounts, and by adding them together formed two furs intlead of one, and by tl.at produced the boafled fuperiority which he claimed as his own plan. He then faid, that after having given the plan of the Noble Lord every attention in his power, he had Hill more confi dence It the opera firms of his own plan, than when he firth opened it to the Houle, and he could not conclude without obferving the great probability there was of a rife in the Public Funds, from the operation which it would have. He could (peak with confidence, that in the fhort fpace of a fortnight it had operated fo as to raife the fpirits of the monied men, and produced a poll important effeEl. He had mentioned, on a former occation, that all flores ufed during the war would be likely to increafe in their nominal value, and he thought, that if one fyftem was more calcu lated than another to check it, it mull be that kind of fyfiem which does not tax thole articles, a necefraty confecptence of which would be to raife their price, and this be hoped he might count upon as a favour. able omen of their fuccefs. Lord CASTLEREAGH agreed with the Noble Lord, that it was moll deferable to alleviate the bur diens of the people, and to diminifh the taxes, but he did not think that the Noble Lord's plan, in its indent form, could do the one or the other. We heard a great deal about the diminution, but were not told rf the debt which mutt be incurred to pro duce that effea The Noble Lord teemed to have found the Philofopher's Stone, and to have difcovered the way to produce 492,000,0001. from 2,000,0001. but he apprehended that the refult would prove the No ble Lord had fpent a great deal, and gained nothing. All this to be Pure was very pretty, and looked as well on paper, he granted, as any of the financial fytlems propofed in France, toward the diffolution of the monarchy. He would do the Noble Lord alfo the juaice to aate, that his ingenuity and eloquence had dreired up his plan with all the art and plaufibi lity of Neckar ; he apprehended, however, that the experiment now under confideration would fail as completely as that of the French Financier had, but he hoped not with a fimilar effed. What could the enemy, what could Europe, or what could this country think of our refmrces, on view ing the Noble Lord's fyflem ? (A c!amour of licar, Hear ; from the Minyerial fide of the Hozyi). What, he would afle, could be thought by any one capable of analyfing the fyftem, but that the nation would foon become bankrupt ? He did not mean to fay that this was or could be the real fituation of affairs. No. He wilhed to defend the Noble Lord againtt himfeif, and the outline of his fyflem. He was aware that nothing could be more ruinous than a plan which entailed compound intereft on the country. He dif approved of, and deprecated fuch a mode of conduc ting our finances. We poffelied ample means, if they were but brought into affirm. What opinion mull the country now entertain of this fyliem, if the Noble Lord's flatement laft year was true, when he fpoke with defpondency and difmay of our refources, which he had defcribed as exhautled by his predeceffors in office ? He congratulated the Noble Lord, however, on his difcovery, that our means and refources were abundant, and would be in a fhort time flourifhing. The Noble Lord here entered into calculations with an intention to {hew that the Noble Lord's (H. Petty)- plan would be impradicable from the expira tion of the three fira years, and inferred, that infiead of adopting it, the Houfe thould prefer either Mr. Pitt's tricot or his own modification. Mr. GILES nbferved, that the Noble Lord (Caf tlereagh) had drawn inferences from falfe premifes ; for the Noble Lord had taken the interefk of one year only, according to his own fyftem, into calculation ; and the consequence was, that inftead of having the iutcrefi at the end of twenty years, at 14.000,0001. according to the Noble Lord's view of it, it mull neceifitily accumulate to the enormous amount of 44,000,00c1. (Near ! Hear! from the Mini/7cm)— Tire Noble Lord would foon find that he had reafon• ed from erroneous data; for infiead of calculating on the intereft of each year during the twenty, he had only taken the interett of one, which he kept in view throughout, and hence smite the Noble Lord's great miflake, which pervaded the whole of his Ilate ment. He'begged the Noble Lord's attention to this mater;al fad, for he muff fee on conflict-460n, that according to his own data, the him ett would amount to 144,0ct0,0c01. innead of t4,006,00q1. He eon. tended that the country would not be able to pay !itch an enormous firm at the end of twenty years, on the fcale of the Nible Lord's expenditure. Lord CASTLEREAGH refeired the Hon Member to the'cu!uirms F.S.C. to Chew that his calculation was c irreft. Mr. GILES acknowledged that the Noble Lord's obfervatiors, and clan/lion from parts of the plan were correel, but he (lilt contepded, by a reference to column . L. of the calculation.; of the whole, that the Noble Lord w...s in error refpeeling the mode in which he calcul.tted the intereft. He felt it his duty, there fore, to approve of his Noble Friend's (Lord H. Petty) plan, the intereft of which, at the end of twenty years, would add only twenty eight millions to the public debt Mr. DAVIES GIDDY entered into a very elabo rate arithmetical detail,the refult of which determined him to approve of the Noble Lord's (H. Petty) fyf tem. He was confident that it would by its operation extioguifh, in procefs of time, the National Debt. The Refilutions were then read one by one, and agreed to ; after which, the Houfe being refnmed, the Report was ordered to be received on Wednefday neat.—The Houfe adjourned at twelve o'clock. FO2EIGN INTEIIIGENC'E. BAMBERG, JANUARY 2 Our Journal of this day contains the following account of the progrefs of hoflilities in Poland : " rront the Head Quarter, of Marfhal DAvourr, at Golymin, December 28. 44 The third corps of the army has had a very dangerous pofition for thefe ten days pall ; k was potted upon a peninfula upon the right bank of the Bug, oppnfite Okunin, and upon an ifland at the con. fiuence of the Urka and the Bug. General Milhaud, with two regiments of czvalry, advanced towards Potofchnkow, a village which had been burnt by the Ruffians, after they had occupied it, to reconnoitre the works, and obferve the motions of the French. The danger of this pofiticn was increafed, fince, at firft, we had only a few boats by which the troops of the third corps of the army could be tranfported by degrees over the Bug. In the courfe of the Ertl eight days not more than 4000 infantry had pertd, and they maintained this poll in fight of the whole Ruffian army. At length a bridge of boats was formed, over which the whole of the third corps paired with their artillery, to the tight bank of the Bug. " The fifth corps, underMarfhal Lannes, had paired the Viflula at Warfaw, and followed the third corps as the fecond line of the army. After the troops had taken a convenient fituation, the operations com menced. Early on the 23d December the Emperor joined the third corps. The Ruffians were deeply intrenched on the right bank of the Urka. The Commander in Chief, Kamenfkoy, Generals Benningfen, Tolftoy, Dolgorucki, Buzhowden, &c. were at the advanced potts. Every thing remained quiet for a while ;at length, at three o'clock in the afternoon, Marital Davouft began the attack upon the Ruffian entrench ments. A bridge was thrown over the Urka, near the place where it falls into the Bug, which general Morand pa (fed immediately with his troops, in order to threaten the left wing of the Ruffians. The third divifion, under General - Gauthier, who occupied the place of General Gudin, had orders to attack the tete de pont at Pomerckow ; Captain Penn, Adjutant to I General Davotta, croffed the Urka in a bask, with 5o intrepid foldiers, and paired the Ruffian centinels. Thefe so men favoured the gradual pafrage firft of a battalion, and lailly of a whole regiment ; two hours had fcarce elapfed when theßuflians were driven from ail their entrenchments. They notwitliftanding return ed with frefh vigour with the vie v of recovering their pofitions. Both fides fought with great ohainacy ; however by one o'clock on the 24th the auffians were repulfed with Inch a confiderable lots, that not the ileaft hopes remained of their fuccef•, and they re- I treated to Czarnovow, after having deltroyed the 'bridge at Pormachow. Here they tool : another ad vantageous pofition upon the plains of Cz arnovow , and in .hat place itfelf, but they were again driven out. They notwithffanding advanced three times fucceffively ; but were at length compelled to leave the field of battle with the lots of a great quantity of ammunition, and feveral pieces of cannon.— There was not a houfe in Czarnovow which had ful -1 fered. The Emperor remained upon guard all night, before the bridge which had been thrown over the lUrka. The enemy now turned his attention to Na fielfk, where various other bloody affairs took place. 'l'he cannon left at Czarnovow, and feveral other pieces that have fallen into our hands within the fall fortnight, were cafi this year. 4, On the 24th, the cavalry were engaged the whole day in the neighbourhood of Nafiellk ; towards the evening, General Friant's divifion came to their Ail lance, and compelled the enemy to retreat, and leave feveral pieces of cannon, and a number of dead, be hind them. .‘ On the 26th, an attack was made under Prince Joachim upon the whale of the enemy's line. The feventh corps, under Martha' Augereau, formed the left wing ; the third corps, under M4rfhal Davoufl, formed the centre; while that of 111allhal Lannes was pofted ) ta the right. The battle was very brifk with both wings. Towards the I,:ft it began at Czar. novow, from whence the enemy, who fought with great obflinacy, were driven back to Golymin.— Nlarfhal Lannes made feveral attacks upon the right. Sometimes we 1011, and Ibmetimes we gained ground. We fought till midnight. The refults of all thete affairs are too pieces of cannon, ammunition of all forts, and upwards of sOOO killed, whom the Ruffians left behind them. , 4 The Emperor came yeaerday with his guard to Golymiu. Marthals Divot'lt and Augereau are there likewile. The Emperor and his retinue occupy the bottle belonging to the Lord of the Mannr, which does not contain more than three wretched apart ments ; and, betides this inconvenience, had before been plundered by the !lonians. It was full of the wounded they had left behind them. A Ruffian Colonel died therejull before the Emperor's arrival: The two Marthals are quartered in two huts in the village, where themfelves and their whole Ralf peep upon Ilraw. The kitchen is the only habitable place in thefe Polifh palaces ! For wit of bread w e Pee obliged t. , hake cakes, and in broaJ day it is necelfary to bave a light."