Star. — London, England, 1807-01-24 00:00:00

sial, and thought that the Honourable Gentleman having been tried by fixteen mod refpeaable Mem. bers, and found guilty on eleven charges out of 14, and afierwards expelled that Houfe in confequence, upon a foil cunfideration of there proceeding% was a proper fubjed for the prefent attention of the Hnufe. It was not his will to detain the Houle at prefent by any farther trefrafs on their time, and he therefore moved hat the charge., maienairit John Fenton Cawthorn, Erg. and the Sentence pronounced apinit him by the Court Martial, together with the proceedings , entertained by that Houle thereon in N. C. Winn t-Pos- 6. be then read." On the ctoeflion being pot from the Chair, Mr. CAWTHORNE Paid, he had hoped the Ho nourable Member who jolt fat dont/Would have ad vanced fame arguments, and peQuced precedents' which were applicable to the prefent motion. He had not, however, done either. For his own part, he felt confident that he retied on the firm balls of the law of the land, and believed it to be the general rule of the ConAitution of this country, that no man, though found guilty of any charge' brought against him, can be punifhed twice for the fame crime. He Rood there at that moment a Reprefentative of the Electors of the County Town of one of the largett Counties in the Kingdom. I He had been chofen by a very large majority of thole Eleelors; and if there had been any charge againi him as being difqualified, it ought to have been made within the time limited for that purpole. He thought he flood now in a very different predicament to what he did when he was left before the Houle on this fubjeo, and that precedents fhould at lean be produced to (hew, that a Member once expelled thonld not be entitled to fit in a future Parliament. He had never heard of any filch precedents; but, on Cie contrary, tie cafes of Mr. \Vilkes and Sir Robert Walpole were dirally in his favour. If the Houle thought proper to entertain t'ie prefent motion, it would he his duty to fubmit, ha wryer hard he might think it. He was certainly obliged to the Hon. General for declaring that no per fonal motieer pimpled him to the prefent mode of proceeding It way neveithelels a forcible mride of playing neon his feelings, however the Honoura ble General's patriotifm might actuate him to do it.' He concluded by Hating it to be the declared opinion of the fire Law Officer of the Crown, the Attorney General, that he confidered the proceedings of a Court Martial as ton flimfy a foundation on which to ground the proceedings which the Houfe then enter tained ageing him. Lord HOWICK thought it neceffary to fay a few words on t%:e futsjeel. It was not, he was certain, the intention ot his Hun. friend who brought forward the prefent motion, to enter into the merits of the proceedings of the Count Martial, or the proceedings which had taken place thereon in that Role, but merely to afcertain whether a lenience ot expullion by that Houle having raker) place againti the Ho nourable Gentlemau, vici he was now labouring un der the ilignia of that fart erc-..% he is fit at the pre fent moment to remain a member of the Honfe ; and. if not, whether he ought to be pet mitted to continue in it? It was certainly a tpreition of very great im portance, iro-olving in it the fir It and moll valuable Canititutional cottlidtrations; and, he was happy to obfeive, that in a question of Inch magnitude, there appeared no parry nor warmth or violence of temper, but every one feemed fr lely aCtuated by a conlcientious regard to his duty, as refpeeting both the privileges of that Houle, and of the public. He hoped that line of conduCt would be eon; totted ; and for this porparr, he wont.' he inclined to pirrfue the mode tueoefied icy the loonourehle Gentleman who fp •ke last, as to fearching for precedents. He be lieved that precedents in point were to t, perhap., to be met with ; out he would with to puzfire that conife xs nwli definable, in order that their proceedings might tett on (mind and Conflitutional principles.— The only objesli n that could be urged againtt it, was the 'delay it would occa lion. He hoped, however, that would not he much ; and the perfon muft affed ed by it Ihould sceolleft that he had placed liimielf in a litoal ion in which he mull bring hinifelf under the notice of the tionle o and therefore he could have nothing to complain nn that (core. After the prefent noeion was dilpoled of, it was, he laid, his intention to move that a Committee be appointed to ketch for precedents. Mr. •SPENCER STANHOPE laid, that having feconded the us iginal Motion, he Arnold have props. led a Committee it the Noble Loid lied not notified his inten.i .n to do fo. He thought the lubje Amid come to a fair and impartial (lib:arson, and would tlieref 're he as ready to fecond the motion of the ,N, ble Lod as he had been in the cafe of that now under coon ieration. Mr. HERBERT laid, he wag clearly of opinion this Cart did not reit on precedents, but was a cafe cf principle. The right of expulfmn retied in the 1-1011 . 0 ft r its own detente, and the protettion 'of its honour, its dignity, and privileges. Some perfons had entertained an opinion that this was in the elec tors, Willi N hid) opini •n he widely differed ; hut as it appeatcd that the Houle withed to go by piece. dent, and he was dent-ruts every pollible degree of in. foimation amulet be bad on the fubjett, he certainly would not ()isnot/ the motion. General GASCOYNE ctifclaimed tam idea of perfonal 'licese or prejudite againft the Honourable. •Gentleman who was ttie lubjeel of the prefent %ion, but he thought it one which ought not by any means to be argued on precedents. In fait, it w a s dear . 7 )e.e were no pi ecedents : the Noble Lord al. lowed e were none, and the lame had been allow ed by ainroft every Member of a former PArliament.• Toe Honourable Gentleman againd whom the pre fent motion was made, had mentioned (owe price , .eents which he thought were in his favour, but he take every one of threfe. and Thew they had no more analogy to the prefent cafe than to a cafe of %order or haskroptcy. If, however.- the Houfe ' , anted a precedent, then was one then before them. ho Fenton Cawthorna had been pronounced guilty infamons and ungentlemanlike condnift. Ht was I y to fay any thing that might hurt the feelings . the Hun -.treble Gentleman, but he had hurt by coming into that Hoare, and he might thank ofelfTer the tonfequenees. lf, however, there t ie an precedents, would die - node then make one neer Inch infamous Conduit ?He hoped not. It 'traded highly to the glory of the country, and of Sepate • that nolbch precedent ems to be mu ` he hoped, by implication, that it was • to c;7-aw forth she broad fkield of p ower .• for the pow& offcreening tuck condo& He hoped therefore the Noble Lord would defift from making the btotiiin he had mentioned. Lord FOLKSTONE was of opinion that no pre cedents for fuch a thing having taken place was a thong reafon why they fhould agree to the motion. He thought, however, that in a queftion which jail volved fo much the dignity of the Houfe, it was rather barns in the Honourable General (Gaf coyne) to fay it was a matter lof reproach to kim that he had put himfelf into Inch a lituation, and that be might thank himfelf for what followed.— He thought the mode prnpofed by the Noble Lord was extremely fair ; no delay of cc:sores:pence could rcfult from it, and it therefore had hishearty con• currence. The ATTORNEY GENERAL faid, his only reafon for affenting to the motion of the Noble Lord was, that if he thought it would not be agreed to, he would think it is duty to give the original motion his dire& nega'.ive. In laying this be was only aftuated by a fenfe of duty to the Houfe, and to the rights and privileges of the Eleftors throughout the empire, br caufe he thought the proceedings of a Court Mar • tial were not fufficient to warrant the Houle to expel a Member recently ch •fen by Electors competent to return him as their raprefentative. He fhould al ways he ready to pay every refpeft to the lenience of a Court Martial, as fuch, and on lubjeas to which it was competent to judge ; but, though a former Par liament might have been very properly induced to expel a Member on the fentence of a Court Martial, he did not think that the prefent one could, accord ing to the law of the land, or with any degree of juf tice, make the fentence of a Court Martial a fair and legal ground to expel a Member newly chofen, againft whom there was no petition, and who had not done any difqnalifying ad force he had been returned by his prefent Conffnuents. It was to be recolleaed that this was the fentence of a Court, in which a man has no trial by jury—has no challenge—has no appeal— and to afk him to do an aft like this was more than he could agree to. The Noble Lord had been accufed of throwing out the fhield of power to fcrecn a delin quent ; on the contrary, he had thrown out the thield of the Conflitntion to protea the rights and privileges of all the Eleanrs of the Empire. Thnfe who made tile of fuch arguments againfl the Noble Lard went on fanciful notions of honour and dill honostr, on which no proceedings could be founded ; and all mutt know, that thole who oppofed filch ar guments were the beg guardians of the rights and privileges of the people, as well as the honour and dignity of that Houle, which could never deviate from the (Ilia roles of impartiality and jullice- Mr. BRAGGE BATHURST thought it need- Cary to fay a few words to vindicate the charadcr of that Parliament which had expelled the Honourable Gentleman on the fentence of a Court Martial. The queltion now to be difciiired lhould be Itripped of all legal niceties, and the Honourable and Learned Gen tleman &mid dillinguifh between the two cafes.— The proceedings of a Court Martial were not fuch on which the Houle fhould tile its privilege of expelling a Member; hut in this cafe a charge of moral turpi tude did arife, that is to fa), there was fuch a corpus detai of moral tut pit ude made out in that cafe as fully notified the Houfe in expelling him. He hoped, therefore, that when the oblation was made, it would not be, that if it be fit to exercife again that right be fore derailed, there will be any difficulty in proceed ing on the fame evidence as the Houle did before. The ATTORNEY GENERAL rote to explain. The opinion he entertained was, that it the former Parliament had thought itfell jullified to expel one of it. Members, it mutt have been right in lo doing; but the mere circumflance of that expullion by a Icr. met- Parliament, was no ground of jurrificat;on to the prefent Houfe for expelling a Member returned to this Parliament as the reprefentarive of a numerous and legitimate body of conitiluents, when no chfqua litying an whatever was imputed to fuch Member, tubitquent to Li. Lill denims. The I+ n. CHA LES HOWARD adverted to an exprtilion which had, he laid, fallen from an Hon. and Learned Member, namely, that tile flimfy authority of a corivia ion by a Court Martial, coufli tuted upon principles derogatory to the crinflitutional rights of ilre Inkjet% where the party tried had no right to challenge his Jurors, was no ground upon which that House might to adopt a procetdipg fo de rogat'ry to the privileges of the Conllituent Body.— He begged leave, however, to obleive, that the au thority of a Court legally conftitnted, and compofed of men of unimpeachable honour, whole decifu. r.s in cafes of the highell importance to the lives. the cha rafters, and the rights of a very numerous body of his Majefly's fubjeets, had been uniformly fanftioned and :ccignized by the leveret branches of the Legit . - lature, lhould not have been mentioned in that Houle in a manner lo difrelpeafol. He denied the alfertion of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, that the parry tried before a Court Martial had no right to challenge his Jurors ; lie knew of no loch preclufion, but had Irate many 'offences wherein that right of the Flamer was affirmed and exereifed. A former Houle of Commons had felt itlelf jußified to ground a meafure precifely limiter to that now pro poled, on the lenience of a Court Martial. The ob servation of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman this night, was as impeachment of the wifdum and jut*. the (al that Houle of Commons, and if his cenlure was kill, the proceeding ought to be expunged from the Journals. The ATTORNEY .GENERAL Paid his expref fion had been entirety mifunderffood. He had never applied the word Binary to the authority of a Coati Martial. General GASCOYNE explained, by declaring he had not laid that the precedent which he had quoted applied precifely to this cafe, but that it was the moll fimilar to it. However, whether the precedent afli milated or not, it watt not by precedent, but upon principle, that he trußed the Houfe Ibould aft. He had not Paid, as imputed to him, that the Nedsle Lord held the broad (Weld of power ever the Hon. Member who was the fubjea of this dircußion, but that, by implication, the Noble Lord's conduct would be to eonftrued. He had not Paid the Houle was to take for its guide the fentence of a Court Martial, altho' he entertained high refpea for the decifiun of fuch a Court. He would rather fee the Houfe of Commons of on this occafion as a Court of Honour than mere ly as a Court of Juflice. Lord WILLIAM RUSSELL raid that his vote on this fubjet timid be guided by the fame principles, as tilde expelled by his Learned and Hon. 1 7 i iend the Attoroey General. . Mr. BRAGGE BAT H IJR ST alfo explained, and that it he was under flood to fay, that the Houle ,of Commons, in the former cafe of Colonel Caw thorne, had decided without difttillion, his es preffion was widely miftaken, for the Houle had difculfed the fubjeB fo far, that two very long fpeeches were deli. vered upon it, one of them by the. Honourable Colonel Irinsfelf, who went very much at length into the merits of the evidence before the Court Martial. The Houle alto came to a divilion on the queftion. Sir ROBERT VAUGHAN laid a few words in sllocron to what he Paid had fallen from the Attorney General on the fubjedt of Colitis Martial. The ATTORNEY GENERAL aga'n denied the terms imputed to him, and laid his words ,were, that the remote decifion of a Court Martial was vague authority for the decifion cf a Court of Jul: tice. Mr. ADAMS rote, with a view of endeavouring to recal the Houfe to the queltion really before it, namely, the motion ()ibis Noble Friend for reading the proceedings of the Houk in the Sall m of 1795. The object now for the H-tife to know was, how this matter could belt be difpcfed of confidently with j.. 1:. lice? He had long formed an opinion upon this fubjee, which he fhould he ready to declare without preju dice or pafilon. He remembered well the cafe of Mr. Wilkes's expulfion in the year 1766, upon which cc canon he was one of the minority—he remembered alto fevecal fabfequent motions for the rettoration of that Gentleman to his feat, which were rejected, and on which alto he was in the minority. But he alto remembered, that in the sear 1782, he had the ho nout of voting with a maj ~rity for the re(toration of Mr. Wilkes, and the ground of his former espulfion was not deemed a fofficient realist) againd his re-ad million. He perfectly agreed in the idea that the Houle, in ultimately deciding upon the cafe, ought to confult praltice and precedent, In far ai was confident with juflice ; but he felt tome allonifhment at hearing fuch a declaration this night, as that pre cedent and principle were one and the fame ; for, in his mind, juaice and not precedent was the princi ple on which the Houle Ihnuld proceed for its own honour. The proceedings on Col. Cawthorne's cafe in i 795, were now read, agreeably to the motion before the Houle, after which Lora HOW ICK again role, and moved that a Se. left Committee be appointed to fearch the journals and records of Parliament, for precedents of cafes where Members had been expelled and afterwards retuned to Parliament, and report the proceedings of the Houle with their opinions thereon. Mr. BANKES thought that they would End no cafes exaely fimilar, and very few that wete analo gous. The objee which he thought mofl dcfirable tor the Houfe to difcover was, the principle which governed the decilions of former Parliaments in cafes of expulfion ; and therefore he fuppofed the Noble Lord could have no objeEtion to wording his motion upon an enlarged reale. Such, flr intlance, as an initruetion to the Committee to fearch f r rates of the expulfinn rf Members, with the o,rounds thereof, and dillinguifbing thofe who had been afterwards readmitted. The only inconvenience suiting from this mode wonld be a little move delay and trouble ; but, when he confidered of bow much imprtance to the honour and dignity of the Houk the molt full and accurate information upon this fobjee would be, ' e thought the extraordinary time would not be Lord HOWICK thought the words—" proceed ings of the Houle thereon" fully comprehended the °Ned of the Hon. Gentleman. Lord t•OLKSTONE thought the motion fbould include another point, namely, to enquire pre cedents of Members re expelled after their firft re miffiun. Lord HOWICK's motion was then carried, and a Committee appointed accordingly. who wete or dered to fit to morrow in the Speaker's Chamber. Lord GEORGE CAVENDISH now role, and f:!id he had in his,hand a Petition from certain of th e Eaton; of the Borough of Lancailer, which had been put into his hands fence he came into the Houk, praying that their Rights as Eleßnrs might trot he affeeted by any proceeding which the H , tile thotald adopt, in relation to this fobjed jolt now clifcufllc!..by expelling one of the Members of that Honk, whom they had dollen to ferve at their Reprefentative.— Having been himfelf one of she Member,: who com pared the Court Martial for the trial of Colonel Caw thorne, he did not with to take any forward part in the proceedings on this cafe. He merely wifhed to pterent the Petition to the Houfe, leaving it for their difcretton to difpofe of it as their wirdom fhnuld dire& The Petition was prtfented and read. It befnught the Houfe that Mr. Cawthorne, their chofen Repre fentative, might not be expelled, and with huml,le de ference fubmitted that the Houle of Commons had no legal authority to expel any of its Members agaian whom there was no Petition complaining of undue Eleaion, nor any complaint of an at difqualif) ing him tince his Elation. The Hon. WILLIAM HERBERT raid the lan guage of this Petition was not only dillefpatful; but diftatorial to the Houle ; for it prefumed to demand of the Houfe an adoption cf meafures upon the after. tion of the Petitioners, and nut upon any evidence of, pleading at the Bar. He had frequently heard of 80. roughs. having been dibfranchifed for a corrupt or improper exercife of their franchife, and he did not know why a contumacious intuit of this kind did not merit a fimilar fate. At all events, it was neceitary to afcertain whether the Suhfcribers to the Petition were really Eletlors of Lancafter. Lord G. CAVENDISH knew the names to he thnfe of real Eledors, and he had every reafon to be lieve the fignatures genuine. Mr. CAWTHORNE faid, the Hon. Member fhnuld, if he chafe, have an immediate opportunity of comparing the fignatures with the alphabetical roll which he had received this day. The Hon. Gentle man himfelf, from the property he [witched, in the very hundreds where fume of thofiGentlemln reilded, mull know them to be Eleflors ; and lie could affure him, that he let a higher value upon their confidence and efteem, than upon the feat in Parliament to which they had tithed him. Lord STANLEY alto thought the Petition diBa tatorial, and thought it ought ant to be fuffered to remain on the tabk. It prelampttioally atiumed t that the 11( tire or commons, ;n the espernek vr4 one of its Members, would b e rea d y to vint,f, lew end the Conqiintin,. Mr. STURGES BOURNE rote to enter hi, r , tell againft the doetrioe doter, by th e N o b le I and lupported the right of the Peoi inners to p ret i,.; to Houle the remonft rance t h ey h a d of f ered, ; relpeetful terms, in lupport of th e i r t i g h t to the choi,ite of a Rem efentative. Mr. SPENCER STANHOPE was of the fam e opinion, and appealed to the Chair. The SPEAKER laid he always underflond it 14 be the pri-ciple and praftice of the Houle of c um ;mins to throw its dßors open wide for the rerepti( % of yeti i , ,ns from every chits raprifelyltriiies:Mmtes:jtelavitiftyael'eds tcotainbuicenheices; whole tight it was to prefent petitions compla• • - Hu ng of grievances existing or apprehended, and that th e o p n et l i y t petitions a w h a r s , , th w e he il th l e u r f-e fo ch in decovou , and ref - pea/0 language ? Lord HOWICK folly coincided in this doftrirr el and faid, that the pe:ition in queftion was fo far fo nt being diCtatorial, that it was couched in terms of re lpeetful fu:rnsiffirm and deference. The queftion being put, the petition was orde re i to lie on the table. ADDITIONAL VOTE OF TEN THOUSAND SEAMEN. Mr. GRENVILLE laid, that in introducing his prefent motion for the addijion of ten thoufan4 men for the tea fervice, he timid enter in , o ionic eipla , nations of an official nature. In the ordinary courft of naval Winds, in time of war, no check was ap plied to the recruiting fur the fro vice, whatever might be the number. of men voted by Parliament. The votes in fuch a period were founded upon the reports of the number acquired during a given time. The accounts from the 3t It December to the 3oth Sep. tember followilig, with the addition of one quarter, determieed the motion for the vote. When be fiat propofed this vote, the number was not governed by the proportion railed in the whole year, but by three quarters of the year, and hence it was limited to one hundred and twenty thoufand men. In the prefent tircumfiances of the country it required no apology to propofe the accetlion of ten thoufand men for shy important fervice. He would fay a word or two on the competency of the Eftimates. The Houle did not appear to him to have all the details before it, which the dignity of the concern, and the magnitude of the charge, required. With his (mall experience, he would not at prefent venture to alter the carafe Par. liament had adopted fur to many years, but it was impoffible for him not to lament the method in which the accounts had been fubmitted to the Houle, fo that no proper documents were fupplied to Ai* Gentlemen in their inquiries. There was alto a kale of arithmetical reafoning retorted to, that was not adapted to the occa(ion. Thus, when '20,000 men were to be voted, 41. per month to each man was at figned, which firm was to provide for the ordinaries and esti aordinaries, the tranfpott fervice, and the general objeds of naval expenditure. In the year , 1797, the fum was iocreafed from 41. to 71. becaufe it had long been difcovered that the former was in. fufficient, and au addition was uniformly accumu. lating on the Navy Debt. Another inconvenime was, that the 71. under the new arrangement invol ved the matter in the fame uncertainty. It was re ferable: to various branches of charge : 1, wages ; 2. vianals ; 3, wear and tear. Tie haft was fo large and general a divifion as to be almnft inexplicable, and mull be utterly unintelligible to Gentlemen not veiled in the routine of office. He troubled the Committee with there remarks, to (hew that the at. tention of Government had been diteCted to this im. portant fubjed. They ha I found that economy was ttrength and defence, and this could not be promot ed without fuch details, and the particulars of which the accounts confined, it was their duty to fubmit to the examination of Parliament. By thefe miens the nation at large would be convinced, that thegrerell economy was confulted in the application of that money which was fu liberally voted to fuppnrt the meat - ores of Adminiftration. He did not claim any pecu iar merit fur what he propofed, but rather, fol. lowing the example of his colleagues in office, hit defect was of an inferior rank ; nor did hc, from his own knowledge, impart this new project in framing the accounts, but having advifed thole who were belt able to atElt him, and fur whofe judgment he had the grearell deference, he entertained no doubt but that he fhouid be capable of dating the accouters clearly, to that every one who, from motives of cutiofity, of of a higher charaOer, Mould be inclined to confult them, would be able to comprehend them. Helhould not have promifed fo much, had the labour been all his own ; but be was aided by others to whom he was indebted for the fug,gtflions which had furniflo ed the materials of his prefent übfervations. It might be proper to ditlinguifh a few of the general heads under which the accounts in their new form would be arranged. 1. The Wailes of the Officers and Seamen. a. The Half pay. 3. The Marines. 4. The Volunteers and railing Recruits. 5. The Pay to the Sea 6. Pilotage. 7. Pmflons to roperanotiatedanctwouoded 8. Salaries to the Admiralty. 9 Wages to the Offices and Workmen of the Yards. so. Ship-building in the Merchants' Yards. I. Hire of Armed Ships. 3a. Stoma—This was prrhaps the molt imporant of an. and it was not to be cxpeard to be pope," diflrthuted into its fit dlviSons In leis than two or (beer years of laborious attar lion. It involved a charg9 of no Ws than 3 6c.opook Included the following numerous items: a, timber ; kart 3, copper; 4, MOTU ; 59 krOn ; 6. glafs ; 7, tar; I,4eadI gr colours • to, ironmongery 1, Rotes from neutral lip& 13. Exchange. Officers, &e. 14. Incidental BerriCes.—Tu all tbefe would be added, its. The Vidtualling board. in I reat detail ; and, 16. The Trunfport Board, with equal minotenefa and prectholl. The leading deign of this exhibition of the dif tine articles, was to remove as much as pomble ce fcurity, and to enable any Gentleman to turn, as to an index, to any particular point to which his auto lion might he diteiled. He would now ;mark upon one or two articks which teem to require explanation. A great itera of expence, which lie wifhed to notice, was what ought not at all to appear in the Naval Expenditure: it was the Vidualling Bills of the at my in garrtfons abroad, which was etiimated at no lets a turn that 600,e051. The other particular to which he had jut alluded was, the fubjell of the Commitlion of Naval Revifmn. This conanitlion was eilablilhed with the mention of carrying into effeet the fuggefh: ns of the CernmilLon of Naval Enquiry, and iis cullence