Star. — London, England, 1811-03-12 00:00:00

, lirWirdMEiviAßr PROCEADING.i. liotiii . OF LoRDS, MARCH 11. MISCELLANEOUS. • In a Committee of Privileges , their Letrdships further heard Counsel and evidence respecting the Berkeley Peerage. The further consideration of the case was adjourned until the first • Thursday after the Easter Recess. The Report Of the British Population Bill was presented, and the Amendments agreed to by the House, as were some further verbal Amendments in the BiU, on the snotion of Lord Re mICSDALIZ. • Mr. JouNsost from the Irish Secretary of State's Office pre sented an account of the Fuhded and Unfunded Debt of Ireland, and the accounts directed to be laid annually before Parliament. Mr. OWZN presented cermin Accounts from the Director. of the East India Company, pursuant to their Lordships order of the Sth of June last. Mr. Plata ELL, from the Last India Docks Company, presented an Account of the Receipts and Disbursements of that Col pora don for the last year. These documents were severally ordered to lie on the table. The Archbishop of CANTERBURY moved, 'Hutt the Lord Bishop of Litchfield gut Coventry be desired to preach before their Lordships on Wednesday, the ...Oda «: the Collegiate , ' C.`futrch of St. Peter, Westminster, being the day appointed for a General Pan by the Proclamaiion of h i s Ro y al Hi g hness the Prince Regent.—Ordered. —Adjourned till to-morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS. • A Message frees the House of Lords requested the commu nication of a copy of the report of the Select Committee of the House of Commons on the State of Commercial Credit, which WAS sent by Mr. I.USOINGTON. On the motion of Mr. W. POLE, a copy of the 11th Report of the Commis-ioners of Schools in Ireland, was ordered to be laid before the House'. A - persori from the Office of Chief Secretary for Ireland imme diately presented the above, which was ordered to be printed. ONthe "motion of Mr. W. POLE, an Address was ordered to be presented to his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, that he would be graciously pleased to cause to be laid before the House Copies of all Papers -hewing the proceedings of his Majesty's Most Honourable Privy Council in Ireland on thC representa tions made to them by the cotton and woollen Manufacturers of that kingdom ; Copies of all Correspondence between the Lord Lieutenant and the Chief Secretary on the subject ; and Copies of all Conununicatiodi made to the Government of Ireland by the Commissioners appointed for the relief of the said Manufactrrers. A Verson from the East In dia House presented.ajeopy • of the Proceedings of the Court of Directors on declaring dividend of sea and half per cent.—Ordered to lie on the table. • An account was brought up of the quantity of bullion Imported. Mr. ROSE moved that it should be printed.—Ordered. The Colchester Water-works Improvement Bill was read a se cond time*. Several other Public Documents were prepented; but the in. audible manner In which their titles were read by the Clerk; reg. tiered it impossible in the Gallery to ascertain their description. • On the motion of Sir JOHN NEWPORT the Accounts laid before the House on the 4th of March, of Monies paid from the Irish into the English Exchequer, were ordered to be printed. Lord FOLKSTONE postponed his motion on informations ex trait., which Stood rue-Wednesday, to Thursday next. . • SHOREHAM ILOAD ACT REPEAL BILL. • Sir E. KNATCHBUI.I. moved the second reading of the Bill for repealing the Shorehamßoad Act of last Session. Colonel DUCKETT moved as an Amendment, That the Bill be read a second slay six months. A long .'14e0..;00, .--;rely of a prninnal nature, ensued, In Which Sir E. KiatCSIBULL, Mr. SWANN, Mr. CA LCItA FT, Sir W. STIRLIC:(; 'bit J. lilt A !TAM, Mr. J. bsarrts, Mr.P. Mooas, and Sir F. BURDETT participated. On a division, there appeared—For the Amendment 41— Against it 90—Majority 49. The bill was then read a second time and ordered to be corn- gritted. On the motion of Mr. CURWEN, accounts were ordered to be laid before the House, of the Barley imported into Great Bri tain from 1800 to 1810, specifying the quantity brought from Foreign Ports, and the quantity brought front Ireland. Mr. HUTCHINSON pos t p oned, until an early period after the recess, his Motion (which atoodlor to-morrow) for the re peal of the Convention At. Mr. WHITBREAD postponed from to-morrow, until Wed nesday, March 27, his motion relative to a prevision for the re currence of any suspension in the Executive Gov:moment. - - COMMERCIAL CREDIT. The order of the Day having been read, on the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE QUER, the House resolvtd itself into a Committee, to consider of the Report of the Select Committee on Commei-cial Credit. The CHANCELLO 4. of the EXCHEQUER said, that in rising to submit to the consitkration of the Committee of the whole House the result of the inquiries of the Select Committee, appointed to inves tigate the present state of commercial credit, and en tertaining the intention of proposing to the Com mittee to adopt the measure recommended by the , Select Committee, he thought it necessary to state that he should express his opinion with great reluc tance, and not till after very serious consideration. — He admitted that Parliament ought not to be called upon ; nay, he contended that Parliament ought not to be called upon to interfere for the purpose of pro viding against any misfortunes to which incautious adventurers might have exposed themselves : because he conceived that. reasoning oft general principles, such an unqualified interference would have a ten dency, by relieving the apprehensions of individuals with respect to the commercial speculation in which they might have engaged, to diminish the caution so necessary on these subjects, and which was the best check to rash and ill-advised adventures. But while he stated this as a generel principle, he yet appre hended that there .might be great exceptions to the rule ; and that the question must always be as to the merits of the particular case. Of this he was at least persuaded, that those Honourable Gentlemen,. who agreed with him that the similar interference of Par liament in 1793 was wise and necessary, could net now broadly deny in toto the expediency of such at interference. They might agree that though fitting in 1793, the in terference was not fitting at present. But they could not assert that all inter ference was improper at any time. The question, he repeated, must be on the circumstances of the par ticular case ; and lie conceived that the report of the Select Committee afforeled sufficient grounds for the motion with which, he should conclude. The con sideration of this important subject divided itself into three heads : —First, the 'nature and extent of the 0,4i1s which the manufactures and commerce of the, country were enduring;--Secondly, the causes oil those evils; --And Thirdly, the measures by which! the evils might with the greatest probability be re moved,—With respect to the first of these conside rations, he apprehended there could be no differencel of opinion whatever, but that the nature and extentl, of the distress, described in the Report of the Select Committee, Tendered it adviseable that Parliament, should alopt some measure by which that evil' might at least be diminished. It appeared distinctly by the Report, that the distress originatin g with • the merchant, and disabling him from paying the manufacturer, -was felt most severely by.* MM. facturer, and those employed by him.' lathe win , cipal martufactorers had been compellectto' contilect, and some wholly to suspend their works. It ap peared by the Report, that there was scarcely a cot ton manufacturer in the kingdom who had not di minished, by one half, the number of persons em ployed in his mill ; and that many of the smaller manufacturers had discharged their people altoge ther. It appeared also, that those who were re tained by the first description of manufactures., were :stained at a reduced rate of wages. The conse quences-must necessarily be, as they were represent ed to be in the Report of the Select Committee, that the most calamitous distress prevailed in many of the manufactliring districts. The Report also stated that the merchants who treded with the Western World not being able to find an adequate market for their produce, this circumstance aggravated the dis tress of the manufacturers ; and the whole operating upon the other branches of tradeothhough not imme diately connected with those to which he had referred, produced a gener.il want of confiddnce, and suspen sion of credit, which required the application of SWIM adequate remedy. So much for the extent of the evil. With respect to the second conzideration, namely, the causes, it appeased pretty plainly that the whole had originated from over-extensive speculation to the ports of South America. These speculations failed in meet ing a ready market ; and in many cases the commo dities brought back in exchange could not be disposed of, owing to the market being overstocked at home. Such were the causes of the evil. It came to be con sidered whether the distress was of such an extent, and was attributable to such causes, as to Make it wise and prudent for Parliament to afford assistance. It might be observed that the origin of the existing distresses—over-speculation, was not a good ground for such - a measure. • He would not dwell minutely on the demerit of that rash and inconsiderate con duct which had precipitated those who pursued it into misfortune ; but Gentlemen would bear in mind that on the opening of South 'American markets in the Brazils and elsewhere, to the adventures of Bri• tish merchants, it could scarcely be complained of that they did not foresee the exact result of their too extensive speculations. But whatever might be the merit or demerit of those individuals, the con sequences of their conduct had been severely felt by them. Parliament, even if disposed to be vindictive, could net withhold from granting relief to these per sons, by the supposition that they had not suffered suf ficiently for their errors. But it was not to them that the proposed relief would extend. " They (to use the words of one of the witnesses, whose evidence was contained in the Report *of the Select Committee,) had gone to bankruptcy long ago." It was to the evil endured by those upon whom the conduct of the original causes operated, that the Select Committee recommended the application of a remedy. It only remained, therefore, to consider, thirdly— whether the measure suggested in the Report was calculated to remedy the evil. He had no dif ficulty iii admitting that there were circumstances which marked a- considerable difference between the present case and that of 1793. In 1793 the markets were not wholly shut ; they were only interrupted. The stagnation of trade was then purely temporary. Credit had at that . period received a checks but it was a check which a little time would restore: At present the markets from which relief might be de rived were two-fold: South America for the disposal of our manufactures ; and European for that of. our fpreign produce. The markets in theWesternWorld had been stopped by a glut.. A glut, however, was but a temporary. suspension of demand. There was no difficulty in the access to those markets ; the only difficulty was in finding purchasers for the British manufactures exported thither ; but he trusted that it no very distant period this difficulty would be re moved. With respect to the markets of Europe, they were at the present moment closed against us by edicts of the greatest rigour. But experience had uni versally shewn that, after the adoption of commercial restrictions of great rigour, although they were felt for the time, yet that a practical relaxation soon en sued. He had no doubt that the exertions of the merchants, and the wants of the consumers, would find means, in a great degree, to obviate the disad vantages at present existing. Therefore, although the present case was not exactly parallel to that of 1793, yet no man could 'say that there was not a pros pect that, in twelve months at least, commerce might experience some advantageous change. Bin even were this change barely possible, instead of being pro.. bable, in his opinion dhe measure proposed by the Se lect Committee ought to be, adopted. Parliament ought to attempt to relieve the distress. No one could say that the attempt would not be completely suc cessful. The worst that could happen was, that it would leave the commerce of the country at the ex-'' piration of the twelvemonth, in no better a state than that in which it was at present. He contended, there fore, that as it could not make the state of commerce worse, but might make it much better, Parliament were bound to try the measure recommended to them. To meliorate the state of commerce, if not wholly to restore it, would be an advantage. The consumption of the domestic markets ; the opening of the markets of the 'Western World would afford some relief; and when to this was added that which might result from the chances of war, the whole afforded, in his opinion, a sufficient justification for the proposed effort. The justice of this reasoning would be coafirmed by a consideration of the nature of the grievances as particularly connected with the cotton manufacture. The rapid growth of this tuanuf.icture, up to the period when the distress began to be strongly felt, was extraordinary. It appeared by the report of the Committee, that the official value of cotton manufactures exported from Gat tritain in the year ending the sth of January, 1808, was £9,846,880 ; in the year ending the sth of January 1809, £12,835,803 ; in the year ending the sth of January, 1810, £18,616,723 ; and in the three quarters ending the 10th of October, 1810, £13,761,136. It thus appeared that the exports were doubled in two years; and that the trade was sud denly checked at its very acme. The immediate re vulsion which such a -check would occasion, must ne cessarily be felt with the greatest severity. If time was allowed the merchants , and manufacturers, to britig,themselves round, the evil would be materially 'diminished. It was to this objeathat the proposed messurevas directed.. It waill to glee the at adhauts and traders antippektunity of applying to other ,e• quests tended to increase the distress, because while • sontreeso andoo spread over a larger period of time Frtnce had c , ilonies, she did rot interdict colirn A t In thilit'prstosure of distress, which, if confined to a sin. produce altogether, and mulch English colonitil pro- \ ti I Itle-oimehent, must overwhelm those who were its duce found its wa y to the Con!inent with tie p e a . Activist'. He apprehended he had said enough to so. duce of the French hlamil. From tl e u:oment C tisfy the Committee, that although the present cise France lost all her Weit•lne.ian vs.,es , ...tors, she could cl differed in some respects' from that of 1793, there have no interest in allo..vii:g c.f such inipa r t A ti,,,, , t wilt a sufficient resemblance to warrant him in recom- . and they were in consequence more strictly excluded mending the adoption of a proposition at the present than before. In recommendi , o„ , the mrasiir;: or * .: 'period similar to that adopted in 1793. In doing this before the House, tilt. Right Hen. G•eirientan I , A 1 I however, regard must be had to the circumstance, informed them no mischief co:11.1 arise tti tr. i:, at , t ;that the extent of the trade on which the present dis- though much good 'night folh.w the experment, it 1 tress operated was much greater than in 1793. If could do no harm. Ile (si:. Pursuaby ) did net 1 the• Committee, therefore, desired to make the mea- ' think, for his part, the ex l ieriment was so peliectly sure effectual, if they wished not to starve it by a .harmless, and the meas.:re ol v;ry safe. lie thought I stinted vote, they would agree to the recominenda - it m i g ht do g ood, and he wohed it might ; but it ap. !tion of the Select Committee, that the relief aff tried 'geared to him impossible to return to th it sotte from, !should be six millions instead of five. The Commis- which they had been unfortunately led by their folly, I sioners appointed in. 1793, 'although empowered to in a way so very easy :Ind free from danger. Th a t grant relief to the extent of five millions, did not ac- 1 spirit of esterprise which had led to such fatal co:- ae . tually issue more than two millions, two hundred . q.ucnces, ought to be discouraged, that something thousand pounds. On a similar principle, he should I , ke a stop should be put to such wild and unpick propose to empower the Commissioners in the present able speculations. The Right Hon. Gentleman had instance,. to grant relief to the extent of six millions, told them that the money torn advanced would n ot, not with the supposition that that sum would be re• in all probability, be lost to the public. He did him quired, but that relief being open to such an extent, (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) the justice to b e . the credit of those who were suffering might be sus- here be would endeavour to name such Cornmissio. tained, and themselves rendered able to go on with ners on the occasion as would do their duty and look much less perhaps than would otherwise be necessary. well to the application of the rnortey ; but when they The regulations and restrictions which accompanied (the House) were called upon for £6,000,000 in Es the measure of 1793, were those . which he should chequer bills, just after they had vcted £12,000,000, propose to the House for adoption at present ; with and when they reflected that all the circulating not this exception, that, from the nature of the case, he dium at present in the country was paper, it was would recommend the periods of repayment should their duty to consider how far they ought to counte r* placed at a greater distance of time from each nance such extensive' issues of paper money. He other. The regulation which he should introduce into . thought it was their first duty to narrow, as far as the Bill (should the House allow him to bring it in) might be, the circulation of poper. Whether or nue would be, to make the first quarter's instalment pay- they hadnow reached that pea iod at which k would able about the middle of January, and the remaining be proper to put an end to it altogether, and restore instalments payable three months after each other, the proper circulating medium, wit; it question on until the whole was repaid, thus following the mode , which he would not venture to decide,bet he thought recommended in the Report. It did not appear to they ought tco do something towards ptitting a stop him necessary to intrude further on the Committee to the extension of the paper circulation, It was a than by moving, . I , painful task to refuse solicited relief to sufferers, v ho “ That it is die opinion of this Committee, that his Majesty suffered not through their ‘own misconduct, but tor should be empowered to issue Etchequer Bills, to the amount of the imprudence of others.' 'Feeling this, fie would • six manses, to Commbsioners, under certahi regulations and not take the sense of the House on the but m rs res trictions, for the purpose of enabling those Comissione to hav i ng made these few observations, whit lhe had advance certain sums, by way of loan, to such persons as may re quire Owns, on due security being given for the repayment of the thought it his duty to make, he still should give his same." I consent to the measure proposed. Doing this, lie Mr. PONSONBY said there was no similarity be- might not act strictly Nilo his cluty;:.es lie 'thought tween the situation of things_ at present. and the cir- the principle of a tendency rather' to - do:harm thin ' cumstances in which the country was placed in 1793. 'good ; but under such circumstances ins die prevent, • At that period the Continent,of Europe, instead of he had not resolution enough to oppose that which being hostile to us, was, with the exception of France, ; afforded any thing like a chiice of alleviating the not only friendly, but the greater part of h was in i 'distress of those wheclaimed their assistance. i alliance with us, and France not only wanted the in- Mr. HUSKISSON thought the attention of Par fluence she now has over the surrounding nations, liament ought to be particularly directed to the but she was unable to prevent their armies taking means.of relieving one class of persons whose mbar the field against her interests. The Right Honour- rassments involved many industrious members ot the able Gentleman , had said, those who laid entered community in the deepest distress. That.class of into the largest. speculations with respect to South persons to which he alluded was the manufacturiag America, bad been punished for their rashness by class. These, from the situations in• which they bankruptcy, and that those now to be relieved were stood, had not brought the calamity on themselves the victims of those speculations, and not the part- , by their imprudence and unjustifiable, speculations, ners in the crime. For his part, he thought (what- as they did but execute the orders they had reset ever blame might be attempted to be thrown on those ' veil 'from the merchants, and were distressed in who bad been most venturesome) that the origin of consequence of the latter - being urable to make the evil might be traced to the exaggerations, the false- the proper returns: Notwithstanding the doubts hoods, and the misrepresentations which had been which must be felt on the subject, as well wi-O • rd in that House. South America had been spoken respect to the efficacy of the plan as on accon: - ... - • o affording a market that would take all our mer- of the inconveniences which might be expve:ed chandise, and that he looked upon as the great cause to arise from it, in a case where the necessity of the recent failures, and the evils of which the fuer- was so urgent, he would not oppose it, or in any cantile world at present complained. The Right Hon.. way obstruct the measure in its progress. The Rath t Gentleman had said the present state of things was . Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, had said he to be considered as but temporary, though it might considered the cause of the stagnation at press::: be of longer duration than the stagnation felt in . complained of, to arise principally .trom the circti::.- 1793; and, under these circumstances, he thoug ht the ' stance of the markets of the Continent being , lot same measure ought to be resorted to as had been against our merchandise, and had contrasted the S;;~ adopted on that occasion. He could not agree with of things at present with the situation of affairs al this. Was the market of South America glutted' at 1793. If such were the cause it would not be to !:rn present? Had that country at present more of our a subject of great alarm, but this he was decidedly of merchandise than was sufficient for the consumption opinion was not the case. The progress of the Fiench of one year ? If that were the.case the British ma- arms had been gradual , and had t hat been t ulle cause nufacturers must stand still till th e ' stock was con- of our commercial embarrassments they must have sumed. He could not tell to what amount that coup- come progressively on, instead of bursting on us try might be stocked with the produce of our inclus.' all at once. TI e Report contained little mere than , try, but when six millions were thus called for, he the theory and doctrine of two respectable pers.an thought they had a right to conclude that things who had been examined by the Committee, toi:e:ix: were so—that without such assistance they could not with the opinions of the Committee thereon. with right themselves in less than one, two, or perhaps which he was not satisfied. They had stated it to threnyears. The Right Honourable gentleman had be the opinion of the witnesses that relief from Par. talked of the great trade of the country, but he ap- liament should he given as in 1793. It cots tr 7! 'peered to labour miler a mistake. Exports were they admitted the circumstances of the casti we:-, not trade—:-but he had spoken of them as if their , different, but this he thought was it er' 1 , ? 1.---- amount was a sufficient proof of the flourishing state , They ought to have been more explicit, ..n.i stat, i of our commerce. If we made extra exports, we' wherein that difference consisted. In 179.; t' '.! ought to have returns; and if, instead of this, what Committee appointed to inquire into tit,. sit! cc% we sent out lay locked up in South America for : stated in their Report, that the sudden di,,•redtt two or.three years, it was not thence to be inferred, : of a considerable quantity ot paper, ham the ta:1:1:(• that, because our exports were large, our trade must ' of different banks, taused a scarcity or . the circulatil: be great. He did not think with the Chancellor of . medium, which could not be immediately repl.!..e. : the Exchequer, that the present stagnation of trade on this subject the Committee gave it as the i r c i ) , :. was to be traced principally to South America.— . that the circulating medium should beincrcast•:!. i • The state of the European markets, was, in his opi- Report concloded by saying, an equivalent , IT ' .: ''J Inion, more immediately the cause ; and what pros- be furnished for the circulating medium, n::: , .. !.•.• i l pect of a change'in them within any reasonable time been thus e onsuddnly withdrawn. A stoiipige I- iv •.i . I could the Right Honourable Gentleman now hi - Ad taken place at e house, a suspicion inin.J;. , :, out ? It had been said, that after a glut a brisk de. fell on all the rest, and hence the scarcity ot . tl.e mand was to be expected, and a stagnation of trade c:rculating medium was naturally to be acccunti..7l :- wasusuallysucceededbya most advantageous change. on that occasion. NVithin three months aft:r that, He was aware that it had been so hitherto, but it had with all the markets of the Continent open to to, been so from events which were not such as were the markets and manufactories of England two in - likely to occur again. The last time the French state of total stagnation. The public securiti.s welf• seriously directed their attention to the annihilation . excessively depreciated, Exchequer Ells wet, -: of our trade, they had been called from the boo- forty per cent. discount, and Navy Bilq n,r.• ...t ders of the ocean by the Austrian war. The Spa- I 10 or 11 per cent. discount, and it was irnivis' ) iz nish contest had made a new- diversion in favour of to gain discount for the most inconsi,lerthl.: •::r. our commerce ; but what prospect was there that ; At present all Government securities, instead : , Iboil such events would again take place ? They had' at a discount, bore. a premium. We now fold with i formerly been told by the Right Honourable Gentle.: loan hanging over us, amounting, as he tease, ioidoo, man that tho edicts of France had shut the markets to not less than £23,000,000, that Exchequer Bil; of the Continent against us, but he (the Chancellor I . were at a premium, and no difficulty whatever, 'c IS of the Exchequer) had found out an instrument that I experienced in obtaining discount for a bill proper!F would soon open them again, and restore tie trade of . endorsed with good names. He was given to oti.O•- the nation. He then brought forward his Orders in i stand that that Encrning (yesterday) Navy liiil. !,.: I Council; which had been sanctioned by Parliament. I been discounted at foot and a halt p..: . cent. %Old,: L.:. He would now ask if they had produced that effect.? public paid on tht m but five per ctoot law ;so 112 or if there were any probability of their accomplish- . complaint at the Bank was git.t that bills w, te ceto • ing within a short time the object he had had in ; nually coming in to be discounted, but that there WAS TIM ? -From the present restricted state of our inter- , a want of such coming in for discount. The bus • i court*, our colonics were rather burthensome than ness in the moneyonarket WAS VCI:y different to A h.:: pro6toble; as thir ' produce waslocked up lime, in it was in 1793. Then the. persons'who wou ld dio consequence or our being unable to find a market for 'count Bills Were the persons not to 'he found, ni se it on- thetontinent. '--iror the VIM reason, if con- dillt there was a scarcity of the persons wanting such I kt