Star. — London, England, 1807-02-20 00:00:00

PARLMMEA . T.Ikr PROCEEDIAGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, THURSDAY, FEB. 19. The Lord Chancellor, Lord Waßingham, and Lord Auckland, fit as Comminion.rs, and notified the Royal Affer.t to few. rat Public and Private Bills. among which Werc the Irifh Treaftn y Bills till. the Nth 141i.itia S. rvicc Bill, the Canada Yarn hill, th e Army and Navy Seduilion Bill. the Annual Indemnity Bill, the Controvertcd Fkdiait Bill. the Barrack Conmulfiontrs Bill. the Cape of Good Hope Trade Bill, Lord De Dutiftativille's Indemnity Bill. &c. The Newfoundland Filhery Bin was read a fccond timc, and ordered to be committed. - _ _ XI:. Leach was heard for the refpondent, in the appeal Merckle againit Dick, and the further hearing was deferred WI to-morrow. The jut'gnient on the. appeal Lewis agaiutt Morgan, was aUo deferred to the fame day.—Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The SPFAKER, with the Members, went up to the Hotife of Lords, where the Itoya Affint was given, by Commiffion, to feveral public and private Adis. On their return a ballot took place for a Committee to try the merits of the Rocht. fter Election, when the following Members were ado: a Committee: E C. Cooper, Ffq. Richard flaw:on, Efq. T. black burne, Efq. Henry Shelley, Efq. James Brogden, Efq. Sir Rob. Barclay, Bart. C. C. Morris, Efq. S. Stephens. Efq. H. O'Hara, Efq. Charles Cock rel, Erg. R. Alfred, Efq. E. C. Ballard, Eal. J. O'Callaghan, Efq. NOMINEES. Hon. J. W. Ward M. A. Taylor, Efq. Lord HO WICK obferved, as the Committee bad not been made to try the merits of the Downpatrick Election, he mutt have re• courfe to the only remedy ; his Lorelfh/p therefore moved, that the Houf- he called over to morrow —Ordered. Sir RA I.PII MII.BANK reported from the Saltafh Committee, that the right of voting was in the Mayor and Free Burgrffes of the Corporation, and therefore that Matthew Ruffrll, Ffq. and Arthur Chmiperelownc. Efq. were not duly eleded ; that the Hon. Richard Neville aid 'William Henry Freeman:le, Efq. were duly elected, and ought to have been returned; and that none of the Petitions were frivolous or vexatious. _ The Drpuzy Clerk of the Crown was ordered to attend to-mor• row, to amend the rem ns. Mr. PRA ED reported from the Committee appointed to try the merits of the Eleclion for the County of Norfolk, that the Right Hon W. Windham and I'. W. Cokc, Efq. were not duly eledtrd, and that none of the Peririons were frivolous and vexatious. _ _ New Writ. wire accordingly ordered to be ilTued for two Knights of the Shire to terve in Parliament for the County of Norfolk. A new Writ was ordered for Derby, for a Burgsfs to ferve in Parliament, in the room of Edward Coke, Efq. who has accepted of the Chiltern Hundreds. . Lord HOWICK, by command of his Majefty, prefented the Correfpondence between his Majefty's Secretary of State and the Governor of Trinidad. _ Mr. ROSF prefented a Petition from the Agent of the Planters of Trinidad agailift the Bill for the Abolition of the Slave Trade . Mr. SHERIDAN gave notice that he would, to morrow, move tbr an exchange of Lilts with rcfpeEt to the Wettminftcr Leave was given to bring in a Bill for levying an additional duty on Brandy, and alfo for a Bill granting additional Bounties en Sugar, put fuant to refoluti ns of the Houfe. The Sierra Leone Bill was patted through a Committee, and the Report was ordered to be received to-morrow. POOR LAWS. Mr. WHITBREAD role to make his promifed Motion relpeeting the Amelioration of the Poor Laws. He mirth wilhed that there (horrid have been a fuller attendance upon In great a fubjeet. The propofition which he had to offer to the Houle, was poffibly one of the molt interelling that could be fubmitted to . any affembly : it was no lefs than an attempt to folve a problem which had long engaged the attention, and employed the ingenuity of the wife, the good, and the humane of every country. It was, in lhort, an attempt to leffen the meafure of human calamity, and to diminifh the fum of human fuffering. To clothe the naked, to feed the hungry, to comfort and relieve the tick, to uphold the aged and infirm, to feparate vice from mifery—thefe fhould be the objeets of the Government of all coun tries ; arid they had been peculiarly fo of the Legifla ture of this kingdom at all timer. The principles upon which ,cur whole fyliem of Poor Laws was founded, contained in themfelves every thing that was benevolent and good. They had been enacted by the wifeß of ttatefmen under the molt glorious of reigns, and it was not until of late years that they had been difcovered to be radically defective. He could not helter illultrate there radical defects in them, than by mentioning to the Houle what occur red in a Committee lall Sefliun, of which he was a Member. It was a Committee to which the con fideratiun of the fituation of the poor in l-,land had been referred, the mifery of whom was fcarcely to he deferibed. The Committee was contlituied of a certain portien of Members from Ireland and Eng land ; and the former were unanimoufly of opinion that the adoption of the Poor Laws of England would only tend to it.creafe the mifery of the Itifh poor. The fubjeCt to which he would requeß the attention of the Houle, had at different times been taken up by various projeetors ; and many plans had been formed for remedying the defects of the Statute of the 43d of Elizabeth, the foundation of our fyltem of Poor Laws. There was not an ael which re• ecived the facelion of Parliament, that did not in its preamble recite the defects and infufficiency of the ii,otoe of Elizabeth. Since his •firli en trance Parliament, the fubjeet had engaged much of his attention ; and twice in the courle of his political life he cfftoed fume propofitions to the Hoof:, which were not adopted. The fuhjeet had alio forced itfeif upon t!--e great mind ot the late Pitt. \Vi:h a power of eloquence, which per haps c•odd not he. equalled, but which certainly could not he excelled, Irk lubmitted a plan to the Houfe tor trnedying il,Carnoft prominent defects in the fyl tem of the Poor Laws, and like thole that preceded it, it proved abortive. His Bill was pr;ntecl, but it never came under dircutlion. In memorable Ipeech upon that occ Afton, he confider ~d the Act of the 43d of Elizabeth, as the Bible, he might fay, of the Code for the Regulation r f the Poor. It was not Lis interoinn, in what Ire had to offer to the Houle, to adhere fir iCtly to the plan which had been iglu propolcd, although there were fume parts of it which he would with to lee adopted. Since the period the fohjeCt was }alt difcuffed in that Houfe, the pub lic mind had undergone a great revolution as far as regarded that queltion. Philolophers of no mean name had undertaken to prove that the principles upon which we had hitherto legiflated for the poor, were radically erroneous and defective. Among flack, one of the moil dillinguifned was Mr. Malthus. His reafoning upon the fubie6t was not capable of being refuted. It was impoilible to diffent from molt of his demonfirations ; in fome cf his deductions, however, he could by no means agree. He would nut at ortrent take op the time ot the Haute, with I _going into a confidelution cf abfiraB qiieflions of right, though, perlorp, it was Ince:Lily for coming to a found deciflon on the fubjeCt. 'Whether man had a right to fupPart from his fellow-creatures was: not a queftion requiring to he dircuffed in a BOLA Leg:flature. The v.ifdorn of our anceflors had notj left it to be decided by feeling or caprice, but relief; was to be found on the Statute Book. Since the ), fy:tem was fo deikdive, it might be afked of him, What, do you mean to abrogate the Poor Laws as they (land at patient ? To this he would anfwer, Never with my confent. The fiarvation, mifery, dearths, and calamity which would inevitably re loft from fo violent a meafure, would far exczed all t':.rt horrors which had been produced by the I devaflations of the molt favage and extenfive conqueßs. There was no man who valued human i life, who for a moment could entertain the idea of' an immediate abolition of the fyliem. It was conk. quently given up by all thofe who had confidered the , fohjed. The next view of the queftion was as to the pradicability of a gradual abolition ; whether the country could not be put into that Rate in which it was previous to the Ratute of the 43d of Elizabeth. Among the perfons who bad favoured the public with their fentiments on this great queftion, two Gentle men, Mr. Malthus and Mr. Arthur Young, were of opinion that it was practicable. In this opinion a late and molt enlightened Member of that Houle (Sir W. Pulteney) concurred. He had conferred with Mr. Young on the fubjed, and his opinion was, that by taking an average of the poor rates for the ' ; fall year, and dividing themtmong different diftrids, ', giving it to be underttood at the fame time, that on no occafion fhould this allowance be incteafed, the, amount of the rates would, in the courfe of time,; come to be gradually dintinilhed. This, however, ' , was proved by Mr. Malthus to be impollible, and it was in dired variance with the opinion which Mr. Young gave to the National Affembly of France on the fubjed, when he was confulted by them. When they propofed to allow 5o millions annually for the fupport and relief of the poor, he demonßrated that it would be impoflible to keep fiddly within the li- mitation. Circumftances might mile which would! , require that thefe 5o millions timid be incteafed to too, thefe too to 200. He was fearful that he was detaining the Houle, but he milled the magnitude of the fubjer would juftify him for confidering it fo much in detail. (Hew ! Hear ! from all quarterr.) (Here Mr. Whitbread read to the Houfe the plan of Mr. Young and Sir W.Pulteney, as contained in their writings and letters.) Of the impraCticability of this plan he was pc:fatly convinced. It would not be poffible to limit the ex pences in all cafes. Epidemicdifeafes, unforefeen calamities, dearth, and many other circumftances, would render it impoflible. Inflances have often oc coned, in which the poor of a whole parifh might have been fwept away but for timely and liberal aid, aid which could not have been granted, had the ex penditure of that parifh been limited to a particular rum. There was another plan, one fuggefted by Mr. Malthus, which did not appear quite fo objedionable as thofe he had mentioned. It was to promulgate to all perfons newly married, that no relief would be granted, the confequence of which he conceived would be, to extinguifb, in the courfe of time, all rates for the maintenance of the poor. But this he was fear ful would give rife to perpetual jarring and difputes, and reduce the country to that (late, in which it was previous to the reign of Henry VIII. A Right wHon. Gentleman over the way (Mr. Rofe) who had favoured the public with his fentiments on the fob jed, had very ably defcribed the miferable condition in which the country was at that time ; when the poor went about Fr( m monaltery to monaltery, to receive their daily fubfiftence ; when, as it was expreffed in the Statute, the country was over-run with a race of valiant and Rurdy beggars, too !hong, in molt in fiances, for the law, and for the reftridion and fuppreffion of which the molt fevere penalties and punifhments were found neceffary. After the diffolution of the monalleries the mifchief was in crcafed, and the Legiflature was obliged to have re courfe to the Kiting (Wines of Edward VI. One of thefe enafted, that it should be lawful to feize any perfun who was three days without work, to employ him as a flare during fourteen years, and that if he attempted to cfcape he might be put to death as a felon. This fevere law was repealed foot or five years after, but others of great rigour were ena:led. The progreffive Statutes of the sth, 1 Bth, and aril of Eli. zabeth, afterwards followed, until at laft came the famous Statute in the 43d year of her reign, which was the f , undation of our prefent ()Item. Every one of thefe arts complained of thefe armiesof valiant and fturdy beggars, who were : oaming over the country in every dilation. This was a Rate in which no man would with to place the country. What then was to be done? Why, that which Mr. Malthus had pro. pored, to modify the laws and make them lefs ob. jedianable. This was precifely his objet. He was no enthufiall, far from it. He believed men were born to labour •• as the fparks fly upwarch - ." Any perfon who fhould endeavour to inculcate any other doltrine among the labouring claffes of mankind, would be guilty of weaknefs, folly, and injußice. It fbould be the objet of every legiflator, of every perfon charged with the fundions of government, to procure for the bulk of thofe who were the Adis of their care, as much happincfs as was confiftent with the narrow condition of human affairs. He could never think of that beautiful expreffion of one of the molt amiable monarchs of France, Henry , the Fourth, without admiring the benevolence which fuggefted it. That great Prince wifhed, that the day might come, when every family in his kingdom might have a fowl in their pot on a Sunday. Unfor tunately, however, this was a Rate of happinefs and profperity which he feared would never be realized; the wealth of the whole world would not be equal to it. In an account which lie had lately Intel of New South Wales, he found the convicts were at one time impreffed with the opinion, that a country exilled not many days journey from, them, where every thing was produced fpontaneonfly, and where they might pars their lives in luxury and idlenefs. Many of them let out in fearch of this vifionary paradife, and the confequenae was, that they perifbed in the effort. They either died by famine, or became the prey of wild beafts. So any politician, who timid endeavour to perfnade the bulk of the people that they were in tended by nature to live without labour, would be guilty of as great a folly as the wretched perfons who pertfhed in (catch of the terrellriai Paradife he had I mentioned. In what lie had to propale to the Houle he was :satiated by no fuch frantic and fruitlefs con captions. His Ojai would be, fo to exalt the labour ing claret, as to make than afhamed of folic:ring or obtaining parochial relief. He would endeavour to itir and excite them to etertidn by rewards ; and, above all things, to dißinguith betwettt the criminal and the neeeffitons. In doing this, he felt it neceffary to avoid any thing that might poffibly lead to litigation, that might tend to change acknowledged boundaries, or interfere with the decifions of Courts of judice. He would not even endeavour to modify any thing old, except where he might have the advantage of pratice in, the experiment. His fiat object, as he mentioned, I thould be the exaltation of the labouring claffes. Every Member of the Houfe, he trolled, would agree with him, that this could not be more effeClual ly accomplithed than by extending the hidings of education, or, to tile the magnificent expreffion which had, on a late oceafion, fallen from the Chair, to open wide the doors to the acquit - I:ion of fo great a benefit. He would not attempt to defcrihe the g: eat advantages of educat . , and the difference between brutality and civilization. It was his opinion, that the whole of our population fhoold have the means of education and information. He knew that preju dices prevailed againd this general communication of knowledge ; but he mulled they had pat Ted away. He did not think that there was any one acquainted with the hitiory of ancient or modern times, who was not fenfible of the great difference between a furious unenlightened mob, and a civilized and cultivated date of fociety. Had the Athenian people enjoyed the bleffings of edncati^n, Ariftides would not have been banilhed; had thole of Holland been intlrulted, the Pentioner De Witt would not have been torn in pieces. The difgraceful fcenes which occurred in this Metropolis in 1780, would never have happened, if the unhappy perfons who were engaged in them had had their minds cultivated and rendered fenfible to the neceility of venerating and obeying the laws. If a flronger proof of the fuperinr areas of education were wanting,look at Scotland. A mifconception had gone forth with regard to the non-exiftence of a code of Poor Laws in that country. It was fuppofed there were none. The fad was otherwife. There were ftatutes eliding in that country for relief of the poor— flatutes which had been :stied upon and confirmed by the deci lion of the Court of Seilion; but fo little occafion was there for apply ing to them,that they had become obfo lete. A celebrated writer, Fletcher of Saltown, dtf cribed, in 1698, with all that flrength that was pecu liar to him, the miferable condition of Scotland at that time, when zoo,ooo people were begging from door to door. When this unhappy hate of fociety was fol lowed by all the vices and mifery which were info. parable from it—(the Honourable Member here read an extract from Mr. Fletcher), what was the remedy which he propofed for all this accumulati , n of wickednefs and calamity ? Nothing elk but edu.i cation. His fuggeftion was adopted, and the conic quence was that all this vice, beggary, and idlenefs Iradually difappeared. The country became induf trious, tranquil, and moral, and continued fo until within there very few years, when it was found ne ceffary that the poor laws fhnuld be again called into ufe. The low flipends which were paid to fchool mailers in that country, than whom there was not a more ufeful body in a date, had difgufted many with I I the employment, and caufed them to abandon it.— The confequence was, that the means of education were narrowed, and in the exalt proportion that it was found to decline, miler) , was found to increafe. He hoped he had Paid enough to induce the Houfe to allow him to bring in a bill fcr eftablithing a fyf tem of national education. This was a benefit which could be extended to the country at a very (mall ex pence—but expence was no confederation when a great national advantage and improvement was to be obtained. It would repay ten thoufand fold all that could be expended to obtain it. He was fo far a friend to reform, that he withed to introduce that greated of reforms, which was to give the benefit of education to every man in the country. Since Mr. Pitt opened his plan to the public, a fyltera of educa -1 tion bad been difcovered, which, much to his credit, an Honourable Member of that Houfe, (Mr. Thom ton, we believe) had warmly fupported. It was alfo ccuntenanced by many of the mod enlightened per. funs in the other Houfe, and was fortunate enough to have obtained the patronage of the ItoyalFamily. This fyilem was the difcovery of a Mr. Lancader, who was entitled to the thanks not only of this but of every country for the labour with which he had en deavoured to ported and introduce it. This fy dem, the cheapelt, the eatied acquired, and the mott ge neral and beneficial in its effects which human inge nuity had ever deviled, he trolled he would fee flourith, notwithilanding the illiberal oppoiltion, and the bafe prejudicies which had been, for what rea fon s he was at at lots to difcover, Co artfully excited againft it. Next to the diffufion of the bleffings of education, the meafure which he intended to pro pofe, refpeeted the Law of Settlement. In this he meant Brielly to adhere to the plan of Mr. Pitt. His propofition was (a propofition which had the fandlion of all the great writers on the fubjelt) to throw open Ithe Law of Settlement in come degree. Of all the laws connected with the fytlem, this was the molt fruitful in litigation. It produced more heart burn ; ings, jealoufies, bafe and evil paffions, than any other I which occafioned contentions between parifhes. At firil the Law of Settlement was limited to three years; but the Statute of Charles the Second intro duced a material change, and produced all the con , lotion, difgrace, and opprobrium which follow e d.— ; As the law flood in Scotland, a perfon who had re• tided three years in a parifh, without obtaining or I°- 1 licking relief, was entitled to a fettlement. Mr. Pitt propofed to enlarge this term, and to extend it to five years, a period, for reafons which he would after wards explain, he would take. It therefore was hi, intention to introduce into the Bill a claufe to the fol lowing effeel---that any perfon :eliding five years in a place without receiving alms, or becoming otherwifc chargeable, fhould be confidered as an inhabitant. From this privilege, it was his intention to except fuch perfons as Ihr.uld be convicted of grofs vi , la tions of law, nr offences to be fpc:ified. To obviate the inconveniencies which might refult from the on refrained eft ablifliment of this principle, it would, perhaps, he neceffary, in force cafes, to give autho rity to overfeers to enquire into the circumflances of perfons. It would be very effential, if this regulating thould be adopted, that a parilh fliould know whether a perfon coming to :elide in it was likely to become chargeable. 1 his was an enquiry, which, as the law now flood, was feldom made until the death of the perron oho was the obleal of it. The prireple aim a he fhould with to fee introduced in this ref l oat, we l neither novel nor dangerous. It was thc fame, in fans, which obtained in every friendly I ciety th rolg a. nut the kingd m, and was to be found in ever ! aft relating to there ralutary off o:iations. It was alio his intention to propore, that the Juftices at the Qarter Seffions fhonld be veiled with power to give relief to the labouring claire& under certain circumflances, He propofed further, he hid, tl:at the Qaprter &m ans lhould have the power to give rev al dsto the l a bi on o g elides of the people who (herald bring up th e i r f am i . lies, con filling of a ctrtaia number, without appl y i rg ftr parochial relief; and, he had no doubt, but th at when loch a fyliem fhould be fr me time :sated upr o , many of that defcrirtinn of pertains would, in former ous inftances, become afbamed oft pplying for fuch lief. He was the more inclined to this opinion here what had within the ha 3 years eel any taken place,. for, in confer:pence of feveral Agrionitiiral Societies having been instituted in various farts of the country; the firff of which was let on foot by that illoarioai and patriotic character, the late Duke of Bedford, —thole focieties, he laid, had granted rewarai fuch as he had defcribed, to chore who had broughtup the greatell number of children, w thous having made application for any parochial relief. When thisfyaera was fit ft propofed, he was apprehenfive there would not be many claimants, but to his great furprize, af tonifhmeet, and joy,he was molt agreeably deceived, and when he came to talk with the farmers and others in his immediate neighbourhood, he found that the molt beneficial effects had refulted from thnfe rewards, not only in the reditalion of the poor rates, but alfoin operating as a (lima on the indrifity and the fob briety of perforts in that dais. As, therefore, fo much benefit had been found to accrue to the tom. munity from the judicious and liberal regullations of private focietics, he fhould with to make them the btfes of a grand national improvement ; and, to that end, he would propok that theJuffices in each county fhould have the power to give rewards to all periling who fhould bring up fix children without having ever applied for parochial atfillance ; thole who brought up feven or more, to be fo much more confidered and diftingnifhed in the nature and value of thafe re. wards. Man, he laid, is naturally fond of &line t ion, and he thought every one who had (hewn himfelf more particularly defer, ving, by having brought op a greater number than fix, ought tc be diflinguithed by a badge of honour, which, when Peen and kno;in to procure him superior ?doe& and esteem from his neighbours, and efaecially from his fuperiors in life, could not fail to stimulate and excite .others to the fame praiseworthy exertions, and fay to themfelves-- "Go thou and do likewife." Another principle laid d .wn by pailof Thers and thole writers who had been allowed to be the heft judges of the condition of the poor, in which he perfealy accorded, was that of giving them.(ecur it y in theproperty they may acreare. It had been thought by the promoters of tome friend ly focieties neceffary to induce their members to pay, or rather to compel them to rave fomething out of their earnings, but in that refprat he differed with them, and did not wlfh to have any further inrerfe. tence in the affairs OT the poor than could not be well avoided. He eu not with to interfere with the eon. ings of the poor, he did not with to meddle with the economy of their families, nor with the made of their expenditure; for though there are many 'per. lons among the lower orders who earn confiderable wages, and afterwards fpend them in public houfes, he would not with to interfere with them, becaufe he thought they were the heft di aributors of their owls money, and by being left at liberty to do with it as they liked, would be more eager to get more, which operated as a conflant incentive cc indult! y. In that refpeat, therefore, he differed from the principle of : the Statute for Friendly Societies It was well known that there have been feveral perfana in many .parts of the country, who have maintained their families on what others thought a mere pittance, and yet have laved money. In fuch cafe, what is to be done 'vial it ? Where were they, in the prefent flue of thing:, to put it by way of fecurity ? If they kept it by them in a trunk or a drawer, it remained wholly unpro. dilative and inaltive, and perhaps in procefs of time, before they could lay io out to way advantage, forte evil difpoted perfan, either refiding in the houfe, or in the immediate vicinity,rnight break open the h. ufe nr the drawer in which it was depofited, and the whole of their ravings might be loft in an hour of abfence from home. They might perhaps put it into the hands of fame tradefman to keep fur them, who might afterwards become banktupt, or lend it to fome country attorney, cot of whore hands they never could get it again. Both there cafes be believed had repeatedly happened, and many unfortunate odd pealing perfnns bad thus loft their little all, and been ruined, for want of fume place of fafety in which to confide their little treafure, earned by the fweat of their brow, and gathered together by the molt rigid and praifeworthy economy. To re medy this evil, Mr. Malthus, who had given the rubjeft the deepell confideration, had propofed to creel county banks for the put pole. In this point, however, much as he refpealed that writer's opinions in many refpeets, he differed with him on this head, and thought that the divifion of fuch a bank into many banks would prove injurious rather than bene ficial ; and to him there appeared to be no fealible way but to eflablifir a graiol National Bank for to laudable and important a purpefe. He hoped Gen- , tletnen would not be alarmed at what he was pro- poling ; he could affe, e them it would not be found a matter of great cliflicith y, and that it might be done at is expence. He would thereto. e pro pole, that there thould be eflablithed in the Metro. polis a grand national lona, to ulach any perfnn should be allowed to contribute even to Nall a tarn as 2Cs. and not more than 5 1 : a year, nor a larger fum than 2001 in ail. That for loch a (urn as they loan:Ob.:el, interest fhould be paid, and when it amouo'ed to tos. (horrid then be remitted to the • party. That there fhould he no (lamps neceffary, nor any thing to pay ter the pillage of letters ; and in allowing this, he eoulo afore the Houle, and prove to them, (lat. it would be no injury to the Revenoe. Thite piny. futons he Ihould of. ter to the Houle in the reveral details of the • Bill, and when he retletted on thc various a dvantages which he had deferiaed as likely to refult from an improve(' mode of education, from the relaxation in t o h f e o v a i no;power in a ot re S: . t a t r le d m s, e h n e ts, fl a . n t d a f . i c ir d the t, r im , from icii I courfe et year., thole laws called the Poor Laws