Star. — London, England, 1819-12-21 00:00:00

rent to the Clause enabling Special Constables disperse a Meetin)z, in substance enacting, that would be unlawful for them to act, unless under t sanction of a Magistrate. Earl BATHURST opposed the Amendment, the ground that it would take away from the MM. ing r tbe power which it had to redress itself. added, that pitons attested' by them were a guilty of a misdemeanour, not a felony. Bart DAItNLEY objected that. the Constables were empowered to disperse the Meeting forthwith, without giving them the advantage of the time al. lowed under the circumstances of its being dispersed by the Magistrates. After 'a few words from Earl BATHURST, the Amendment was negatived. Lord ELLENBOROUGH further proposed an Amendment to the Clanse, which allowed only half an hour fbr those qualified to attend, who remained on the spot after Proclamation had been made. He contended, that there was a great inequality in ex tending the same punishment to those ,qualified • to attend, and those who were not so: only with the difference of a quarter of an hour's time. lewas too bad, that they who came there Constitutionally, should incur the penalty of an offence of which they were not conscious. This was opposed by Earl BATHURST, on the ground that a discretion was left with the Judges to take these circumstances into their consideration, and meived. LoLrd ELLtNBOROUGH objected that the act of obstruction to the Magistrate, which was made so great an offence, was so badly defined in the clause of the Act. He wished to give it a duration, as to time and number of persons, to constitute an ob struction. With this view, he moved as an amend. ment, that it should be by three persons at least, and that the obstruction should continue for upwards of ten _Minutes. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, That this clause was but copied from the Act of 1796, and that it made no change in the law, as it stands at present ; for a Magistrate might, at the present moment. disperse a Meeting, if he was obstructed, by force, in the execution of a warrant, As to the time required, he conceived it would be but a delay of justice, and the law. Lord ERSKINE thought a reference to the Akt of 1796, no answer to the objection of his Noble Friend. He would ask, if upwards of 500 freeholders were assembled, would their Lordships male it com petent to one man, perhaps a spy, to make their Meeting illegal? He again contended, that coercive mesures would but increase the discontents of the Pesple.—Negatived. Lord ELLENBOROUGH again argued against this clause, which he'contended would, if it passed, do away entirely the right of Petition. Under the regulations of it, a Meeting might be dispersed by the act of one man, and it could not be again re assembled in less than six days. This, in the case where a Meeting was called for the purpose of dis cussing a matter in progress through either House of Parliament, if the Meeting was once dispersed, the measure might be passed before another Meeting could be called. His Lordshi p , therefore moved oJs Amendment, that after the dispersion of a Meeting, any one Justice might be empowered to /grant, in writing, to a person properly qualified to make the Requisition, liberty to the Meeting to re-assemble in forty:eight hours after. The Earl of LIVERPOOL had no great objection to the Amendment, but he wished the Noble Lord would withdraw it fin the present, and before the third reading of the Bill, he would take it into his consideration. Lord HOLLAND congratulated the Committee on even this disposition to concession on the part of Ministers. Lord ERSKINE was in favour of the Amend ment, but he did not think it went far enough. It' appeared to him, that it was to no purpose to re assemble Meetings, so long as the same facilities re mained of dispersing them.—The Amendment was then withdrawn. Lord HOLLAND, net being prepared to make any observations on the clause , indemnifying Magis trates for the consequences of dispersing a Meeting, could only protest against it. The Earl of BLESSINGTON moved-eiestpunge the word " bludgeon' from the list of weapons pro hibited at Meetings.— Negatived. The Marquis of LANSDOWN moved to except the Surrey and Russell Institutions from the operation of the clause against Debating Societies. He observed that the London and Royal Institutions were ex pressly excepted, 'and he saw no reason for not ex • tending the same fanny to the others, except that the latter were chartered. The Earl of- LIVERPOOL said that-was the only distinction which could be drawn. If an exception was made in one instance, it would open the door to applications without end. Lord HOLLAND s'apported 'the illinendnrent.— Negatived. .• . • . . The Earl of BLESSINGTON said,that is there • wait nothing in the papers on the table it alkatfecting Ireland, it was but just to except that country from -the operation of the Bill. He was convinced it I.oas , not the intention of Ministers, from the first day,to • eatend the measures to his country, more so,• as the name of " Barony" never once occurred in the Bill. Perhaps this was not the Most seasonable time for •discussing its principle, bet he could not help ob serving, that the clause-about obstruction to the Ma. gistrate, Could be applied in the worst and moist vesations way there imaginable. The Irish werea people easily inffained, and who generally tame ca. gether under the influence of strong feelings and strong liquors. No' matter what the question i* debate -was, every assembly ended there generally by some disorder. The new power, therefore, given' '.to Magistrates to call in the Military, in the event' of • disturbance, would be an additional tempted**, for e - they were already too much inclined to appeal to' ! that force. After saying that, however f o r meat , • sure 'Would -or would not be applicable 'to -this. country, it was certaiftly ill-timed in saWard ie Ire land, he added • that it was illibitrat te 'treat her ao,' • when ' • under all' the privations - which she enduretk . • s h e kiad•ibewn so` much forbraranio hitherto. He' expressed an intention of di'viding the Cornsaittee 'on the Amendinent. • The liar' teLIVERPOOIt declared that cal meetings or . . zmt b s ver y g rafting to their ornedwee -- i H!!"4-; , The Earl.of DARNLEY said, it there was a-peo- , le in the.world to be gained by concil i ation, it was; . • Irish. — One act oflciodnesi would d o M ore th an ini ii theasures of coercion: ~. e gar} of BLESSINGTON sha p ed his Artiend:- iii - ent so as to give to the Lotd Lieutenant k disere. - 606a1 power of extending it to such parts of the country as appeared to him to require it. .. ' -The Earl of DONOUGMORE said , it wa s a gra tuitous insult offered to Ireland.. lie was in a con dition to shew that the offers of co-operation held out by the Radicals of this country had been scornfully rejected there. It was a little too much, under these circumstances, to treat her quite in the same way as 'this country. A Noble Lord (Castlereagh) in ano ther place had said the country was quite peaceable; bin, this was anethei'proof of the sincerity of Minis ters, for at the same time that the Noble Lord was pre paring gagging measures for her, the Noble Lord {,seemed determined, whilst he was kicking this coun rts7, to give his awn a slap in °solace l— ( Itear). The Earl of HAR Y ROWB spoke against the 'Amendment, and after some words from the Earl of 1 11Lassinoron, the Amendment was negatived with cut a division. . . The Earl of BLESSINGTON wished to know whether the hish shiklah came under the de fi nition Of bludgeon, in the clause prohibiting arms at Meet ings. He observed, it would be a • severe visitation On his countrymen to be depriied, under any circum stances, of the company of an oak stick—( 4 laugh). The LORD CHANCELLOR doubted whether Ike Noble Loid apnlied to him for an answer—(A leuzh).—He would rather ask what a shilelah was? The Earl of BLESSIN. GTON did not particularly address himself to the Noble and Learned Lord. . The Earl of LAUDERDALE moved, .that the Bill should definitively cease to be in opitation on' 'the Ist of March, 1825.—Negatived. The clauses of the Bill were then agreed to; it was reported without Amen4ment, and ordered to be read a third time to-morrow (this day). Adjourned at Nine o'Clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The CHANCELLOR of the ESCHEWER beneeltt up certain Papers and Estimates relative to the coatis :wades of the Civil List, which were ordered to be printed. He also pia ned his intended motion for a Vote on acoount of the sense tW Wednesday. Mr. PASCOE GUINFELL moved for a weekly worm of all Bask Notes and Bank Port Bills,distinguishioe their amount, with the amout of all Notes shove i's ; and die amount of the whole which had been issued sines the -5d November, till the latest period that it could be made tip t 0...— Agreed to. excusouast slits. Mr. MARTIN made his motion, " That there be laid before the House an account of all the Exche quer Bills which have been issued since the Ist of September last ; specifying the rate of premium, di:- irsssaf, mud intoioss, mod wiser% IssuCd."—A.groisa to. MICWIPAPES STAMP SILL . i Mt. JOHN SMltti presented a Petition from c.f. taro Booksellers and Publishers of Works in Nuilbera. The Honourable Gentleman said, there was no trade in the kingdom of more impOrtancelo the morals and happiness of the lower classes, or to tjse religion Of the Nation at large, than that branch of the book selling line to which the Petitioners belonged. The Petition stated, that they published a.great number of works, chiefly on the subjects of divinity, or the arts and sciences, which being set-forth in the form of cheap periodical publications, were within the reach of persons of small property,. who would not be able to purchase them, if they were obliged tom for the whole work at once; that they made a point not to publish any works'on political subjects, nor to allow any persons in, their employ to sell any publi cations but what were of a moral or religious nature, in most instances procuring - security, by bond, froin them to that effect; and Petitioners conceived there was no plan better calculated, or more effectual, in conveying instruction on these subjects to the lower orders, than that followed by them. • They prayed, thereforei that some provision would be made to ex empt works published by them in the manner above stated, from the operation of the:Newspaper Stamp Bill, at present in its progresi through the 110use,— If this were not done, Petitioners stated;that above one million of eapital employed in the boOkselling , trade in the piiblicationof cheap Numbers, would-in evitably be thrown back upon those who had em barked in that business, besides suffering some dimi• notion from the sudden effect of the Bill. Prom this' statement, the Honourable Gentleman - remarked,- it was evident, that if the Bill passed in its present .shape, it would destroy all that, little portion of the reeding of the poorer classes that was serviceable to them.—Ordered to lie on the table, and be printed. Mr. DUGDALE presented a :Petition from certain Booksellers belonging to-Birmiu ' ' Warwick shire, against the Blasphemous • and" tiousLibel 'Bill; certain clauses of which they vi wed with -..e*e.% alarm, particularly that which made it liaiiiii'inedt for a second offence. The*Petitioners stated, that a 'great' part of their 'tuck consisted in Alms books tett down from London, *IMO - part of which even they bad not time to reed. Mr:'111. A. TAYLOR said, that this - Petition spoke `the senttments of every' Bookseller in the kingdora n 'The Petition Was ordered to' lie on the table, aid to be' printed. Lqrd STANLEY ptesented a Petition from an in. dlvidual tithe naisstrof Henry Fisher, stating that he carried en the bushiest of a bookseller, at Liverpool, `London, arid untibus • other places In 'the United Kingdom ;-*and that he' employed "an immense capi-, lid it printing eadvisblishing-books on religious and Moral subjects, in smelt Numbers, at a cheap rate; ,tad he ares-ftatful that, if the new Measures of restric.. "'`•ot6lopnts Into laws,this capital would be idle, be v" ~si'h!''~frddl~ JPIL Mr. BERNAL presented a Petition from certail Booksellers in the city of London and its neighbour hood, complaining of the provisions of the Blasphe mous and Seditious Libel Bill. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR thought, that after the sen timents of a great part of the nation had already been sent to the House, in opposition to the Libel Balt longer period should be allowed, to give dole for fur ther expression of the public voice on tha•subject.— Re was sure, that the more Petitions were heard re specting it, the more would-be seen the impropriety Of passing it under' its present provisions —The Peti tion was laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. sun 's. On the Order of the Day being read, dia./louse went into Committee of Supply ; when - Mr. ROBE WARD moved for a rote of 0250,000, on accoont of the Ordnance Estimates. Mr. HUME ex ted that the Hon. Gentleman would have favou the House with a statement why the amount of th Estimates was larger for present year than f 4 the one preceding? In the present state of Europe, which, we were told from the Throne, was such as to premise a letig state of peace, he was much at a loss to know what causes the there could be to increase our expenses? He ob served, that the cost of that department of the public accounts was greater by £50,000 than it had been on some former years, and that the salaries of , per-, sons employed in that department had been dotibles4 and owes trebled ! He thought, that when the value of money had increased in the proportion of 25 pea , cent. that we should begin to return to a state some• what commensurate with what it formerly was. He hoped that before the House granted money on this account, it would cause inquiry to be made into dr surplus and eatravagant rate of solaria. Mr. R. WARD said, that' the present time Was not the most proper for going into such questions," the Honourable Gentleman suggested. When the Ordnance Estimites came to be laid before the Hon" in their fullest details, all questions of that naves, might be discussed at large. He would only allow himself at present to make one observation, which was,. that the Superannuation List alone consumed as much at present as the whole Ordnance costly' 1792, prior to the French war.---The Pots was thiii agreed to. The House having resumed, Mr. CALtRAFT took occasion to ask the Noble Lord (Castlereagh), lvitether bis Majesty's Ministers would have any ob jection to produce the answer which was sent to the letter which appeared among the Papers laid before the Home at the commencement of the Session, ad dressed to Lord Sidmouth, by the Manchester Ma gistrates, bearing date, lst July? Lord CASTLEREAGH replied, that he should be able to give a deSnitiVe answer to this question to morrow. At present he knew nothing about it. Lord PALMERSTON moved the Order of the Day for receiving the Report of the Committee of Supply, which was accordingly brought up. Mr. GRENlELL'asited a question .of the Noble Lord (Palmerston) relative to the amount of the charge for the "pens" of the Royal Military 'Col lege, and vaished•to knew whether, -as the number of Cadets bad been reduced, the cost of the Establish ment would not bevlse Induced? Lord PALMERSTON replied, that the Estimates for the. year 11110 ewe not yet eonipletad, but he believed be was tolerably accurate when he stated,l that there sinuld lino iWnetien of 42,800 .in the charge for the 'Junior Depritaant. 16. HUME nbeiready 41. t„ 4Y the • 114 aull's whisk had been laid avderrildeolt.apeaared thet the 141. Mary College sheaMaapplrthe AtenT.w4h:Oireeene at the rate of gait . 44101/4Cir" eels mail hap the fact was, that,- driag she :lag three yens, -only seventy•eirsbedleessisniiplie4 is lket Zokaioliek! ment. The eareparao "if this teneirtbat isnaxel the expenses Winn, Month. 10111 *• 4300(10_01 ilea been entered in the Jotnende of site Ittreal iIIPIRSII out that. emery one of tbesefarmen.erhotati jsinersi' the Army had cost CLOW to tbe.uoliOntpi - t , Lord PALMERSTON daelined eatedag jaws elhweasinn of thivillPOS'ent the present tune ;'bet. he. stedi-underiakX . .o' sat, that the Meneagatlesea,4s reasimars -were iscoriOdt • and when be mew* ilis-' cute Ile details of the liatabledententeon'inonel4o.' _ riod, be was- melte would sisserdsma be spie Mr. HUMEmid, thistle head/swigs rnateMINNS from the B,epiate. of_ thin Srnaliiihiarntio Aid he would -pledge himself •to sheer- WO **rect. • ' The Shipment the Coinaiitteie was*ES: *greed to. • NSW/PAPER STAMP 00/1110 RILE. The Order of the papier a Censinittee of the . House on she Newspaper Stamp Duties Bill western& • Mr. MACDONALD rose and- saidohat with re -spectio those kills, for he would class the Bill at present before the Howse -and the Libel. Bill together, he did not slink 'tholsiane objection applied, width had been atiged against many of the former ma awes of the-Sable - Lard opposite, via. that it was unintelligible; they appeased to him but too ittlaliit V.gible; they appeased .to Wise but too obvious ta hi{ ,most decided stabs at the rights and ewivileg s s4 Englishmen. Melody estrrhich their • don was suppirnted , vies, that the staining laws insufficient for the necessities of the tunes. Thai those laws, which. in times of civil *discord and at 4 Union. bad been found sufficient to carry the .cernoi try and the Constitution safe and unimpaired *mg* all the dangers which threatened them—that had been adequate to carry as through that awful period of politicalrngitatke -which had been marked by a peat Revolutsee is a . neighbouring country, were in times of preftiand psalm,. pronounced by. Minis ters to be ineificient—they should say, -inefficient in their hands, . to:put awn irreligion andliedition (bbas., Aeer)orlt seemed that at the close of and to the same extent They were to be , had bees thrown should give exchange for it. We ith those victories glory, if the .? Will not extraordioary raised from obscui ' The victory of taus as he thought it, woul suffice for the loss done ate- What was it that had sustained the arduous struggle for the ! but the Press? It was the Press Dented, somewhat grossly military despotism being established and that had upheld in such - • sings exclusively enjoyed und. England—l Hear, hear, hear). — which it was now proposed did think that something of the Bill at present before etpress his belief that it was been attempted to impose tl any other view than that of What were the objects of tins compress publications wiC shackle it with recognizances selves, and sureties from their add the penalty of banishment of a blasphemous or seditious to say, that the first proposition tion of the Liberty of the yet been demauded but when fended the law, or bad :hewn do so by awn seem act. r met* ea durpsesanyaiori the law, he would repeat, tion....sueh' a pttoposition some. Ultra-Tory,,,pho wets sat., do* of liberty in the Justinian present vague definition of libel, man in that House, he would come respoosible for another. occupation of 'the political extended to a class of men their sureties would be would go much farther in quence of this was, to throw recognizance: on authors • would be found to be of the Censtitution. No stub. sures now in contemplation, lids his sentiments on the day, unless he be able to' stadA:43oo for bit believe that a Right. Hon. .Lunt oat the right baud ipiodoced the BiM, and td well known, bad assented bb abould hear him assert would venture to say Censorship that had ever , dptible was that of money oable man of genius, you may go about your h —Go you and enligh ten humble member o eßepublic no longer! We shall haT - State indeed. He would Lord, if Dr. Johnson, or essayists or satirists of recent class of hund-toqnouth limpness ittbe present Bill . He objected to the ponsishimemt cause be thought ittite *est mints. To the maxi wbe k would bone punishment ; suck ties, it would be Axone fence happened to be one offender would be well ?emir , but if it altauld be tee in the CiatingettwoilW Government of this Country, . would be -abased from monitory monstrous stunner. He equally tin; Fovision of the Bill which of inWteting unlimited Pu'llginntigh lOW to be so stoneold -bewail to consider would hereon the minds( not be taught to take • into pvez-severity of the law, los visitatlon by their dolnion, • ouse to consider without tia, *di all its faults—to remember done. ;He did _think: portion of the . • be thought g ot the same family for it, anci_nntil: tilka, and. its remit known, .striction do it sboatd be laid it was on behalf of the ;respectable that he most especially called • h was that which he asked.- the most scrupulous and C41,70f the House: for rhensuch faith.'-' Mr. DIe!DENSON regarded as an infriggement of the ,the sobject,hut as a measure necessarily the anarchy and =hellion that threatened c. elm the. Country ; and he trusted that that 11 mould set an example of firmness, by giviug peaceable and well disposed that protection sE! .they had a sight to require. Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW thought his tlency.:r: -Friend (Mr. Macdonald) bad eaistaken the Bill, he spoke of it as taking away all security fron: diets. The &11 went to derhand security from printer aid publisher of a political work, but it nia4 no mentiosof the author. Its provisions would sEicl no respectable bookseller, but only those persons , a having nothing of their own at stake, were urged c by others to .usher into the world those infamous I' , pers which it was the object of Allis mensule to p down, and which no respectable bookseller mruu. He thought his Honourable Friend wro: a point, where he had alluded to the punig be inilicsed fur ,as .etseond aireisee• kle asider the =lesson wade to.the case 0f,4 as-esactly in point. Awn the respect-abs tor thd decision of JAW" he 1 0: 0 11 *" sa l t g r . a h t t t h t h ey llem ha dey.l always the intention of Ministers to apply this me*. of respectability would place his capital or hi-, et t. manner and to ti o sto sure to Ireland.% It wou)d' dam iL that co •, ) INAS in the bookselling . „ war , - 0. - h .to. a ty d irp:a d ydf oi fi l .u. Z A F i e i .,twical lArC -,, in exchange on derkif che Rai:Scats here •••- ••• persons •0"•. . ; and particu die wki .7 • - thia country' loatl brelsl; thertwertlieont '. .- :~ twe •en ' • .. ; • ! Liverpool, ail; aiuttlie evl‘tx.. •. • ost certainly brei ,to'r • it barns st •- Pl : e9 ; ; th e e re t d a t b o thi l Pe ; ecen on an• the d t c. a .'ir li n.:a- le; p . - 11 1se.. • fora' been their gl t H i e sioutnatiherivu.i:hbeeenllstifleiclvh:ktre..:H•e : 4 ;cl o , f t t i e t i:; : e title f it .- ;;;:isioi t a ll i.-- wily ...n.r of the Mik il • k, not dispose them to politi- tu inted. . Gentleman) that , cal meetings or discassions, this act of ilitrvivatiourt ILAaftqlget/S AND Mitious Lien 1114. igressions first rai .- P.lttsiAi. riresented a Petition from certain in his defeats? . ' • • • -I! - -- i f. I 1 M R 14)er so,' lisnheOiddlilitt' be able'to • earri business in 15 rears oime;fiiiii,inTthe ---- co;ir; of which the publish: enduretVesieltititieillarlbtenehitete thist•to'be the ease:—dor- psis* of - the.eamatry had •shown a 'perseverance un- in another to. fie ilfrOdlo-liteeditheteble,tintEl to beirinted. , der their Ilkeston. Atourecetiented in history, and. snent to bi oittee 00' "IlleWl,ll/IVI inlisented *Petition freen•sevend which liorLeoraribeted4o bring to a ternibtation,the not eonsid MIMI& ibfitßri'itol; mine that if.'tbe present elms of their great may, thole peopiewere to be Hone as-e t it 'was 4 1/111411eptktiltriAbiltrereireverteitted.to-passittanino told sheyArappitafnied 10 _enjoy liberty in the he held to og i a th in ia tt th t h s e e th U r C eH h i l o l i e e n lo r o a p i u n ir i e t a e b . t: t oe t to e tiol l i( i l t sadd own in .upon them as r re np some of their Jibe the etories which had beret ;is was the price they w t j ry of Waterloo,whous gyreoau: obscurity, have triumph, li t would not, in his opini • tom of our liberty W es sstaiired the Nltiou dun the last twenty-five v.. -• , ti ae .Press that. had rep perhaps, the horrors of k , tstablished in this count. sch vivid colours, the b . under the Constitution a wir).—Bre4 it was this Pr A to shackle. He ceitair might be urged in beii re the House; but he was the first time it h the duty of a stamp of increasing the Reverie I this Bill ? First, it was, ;thin a certain range_ , ices from the parties th their friends; secondly, intent to the second offe ions libeL Now he me , iosition was a gross vio Press. Surety had nee ilea as individual hail o sewn himself on the road But to demand • secu • in that a man would offen • 4 was a monstrous propo must have proceeded fie satisfied to seek his des, ustioian Code. Under ' if libel, would any Gen would ask, be ready to • , alter, engaged in the dail ical Press ? and this, ah. men with whom the loss the total loss of form, is its operation. The co, throW the whole weight s ; which, when consider. F the greatest importance aw, according to the • ion, would be able to p the transactions of his oi s lack up £1,200 C6OO is publisher. He would 1. Gentleman (Mr. Canning ad of the Noble Lord wt whose literary labours a ted to that proposition, us, t it himself—( /fear, Aar sy, that of all the species • been devised, the mostc. coney I This Bill said to have you £1200? business! To the rich it s:, us! Pass this Bill, and tatpublic of Letters will ex' lave 'a baneful aristocratic Id be glad to ask the Nob' t any other of those emin *cent date, who were of , s authors, could have go , lin had been in existence ishnient of banishment, eilost unequal of all pun' . • had no ties in this count., act; but to the man who h twee than death. If the se of a domestic nature, received on the Continent in which all the Powers ske common cause with nary, the uafortuante erritory to territory in a 'equally strongly objected; ill which gave to Judges* nlimited uqprisenmeat. saperadded is this manse Odor the elect such a syste is of Jurymen. Would into their consideration tl: ro inhiectinic locisivn? He implored out delay what the Press% member what it had heret six that Use lowest and le Press had degradrai tame time, there was a UAW: 1. that remedy had been ' own, no new measures of t laid before the House. respectable part of the P . called upon them to sked of them • to Cherish el d zelizious care. He b . For having . detained.checn tent discussions-were peed . (Hear, hear). needed the present Bill.: be just rights and libet-tie`' ,ensure necessarily oppose , ' ion that threatened to isse not he trusted that that llc of firmness, by g iving 'posed that protection al:. uire. DW ;bought his tlonotiras. It h.,4 iesisteiron the Bill, It:: t 6 . i • i: : ItAi i l .) , I : .~ ;:, •. # k ' . v , i E I~' r/ ,