Star. — London, England, 1809-06-08 00:00:00

PARLIeIM.ENTARr PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, JUNE 7. The Militia Pay Bill, the Exchequer Bills Bill, and the Irish Duties Bill, were read a second time, and committed for to morrow. The Irish Militia Families Bill, the Local Militia Amend.. ment Bill, and the Irish Militia Pay Bill, were read a, third time and passed. The Spirit Intercourse Suspension Pill, the Irish Militia Con solidation Bill, the Insolvent Debtors Bill, and other B;Ils, were brought up from the Commons by Mr. Wharton, Sir T. Turton, and other Members, and read a first time. - . r, r r 1 111 1" INT . i , • ; MANCHESTER WATER WORKS. 0e the motion for a third reading of this Bill, some conversa tion arose respecting the degree in which it migkf aiTect one of the standing orders of the House. The result of the conversation was, that the Bill should be recommitted. Several Bills were brought up from the Commons and c. ad a first time. CRUELTY TOWARDS ANIMALS. This Bill being recommitted, Lord ERSKINE propos( d some further amendments, in which be included a wider enumeration of animals than he bad at first proposed; but finally limited its operations to beasts of draught or burden. After a few observations from Lord RIDISDALZ, the amend nients were agreed to. . TOE LOAN INTEREST BILL. On the question for the third reading of this Bill, Lord SIDMOUTH rose, and recalling to the re collection of their Lordships the system of finance which he had adopted at the time when he had the honour to preside over that department, proceeded to contend that the financial prosperity of the country essentially rested upon that plan, the object of which was, that the revenue and expenditure should meet and square with each other. The consequence of the pre sent measure must be, that the revenue must decrease in proportion as the expenditure augmented, and as such a system must be pregnant with ruin to this country, it must have his decided and unqualified disapprobation. Lord LIVERPOOL, in reply to Loid Viscount Sidmouth, contended that the system pursued by Mi nisters was the best that could be devised to meet the exigencies of the present moment. It was one which would prevent the accumulation of taxes upon the people until that period arrived, when it was likely they might be relieved from its immediate pressure, which the unavoidable demands of the war now im periously called for. The only question was, whether we were to look to a long protracted war, on a smaller scale of operations ? or whether a greater effort should be made to aim at its nearer termination, by larger sacrifices and more extensive exertions ? Circumstan ces as they might arise must terminate the preference to either system. Lord GRENVILLE, in a very long speech, ex patiated on the financial system adopted by himself when in power, contrasting it with that which the present Administration pursued. It was now pro posed to their Lordships to add an entire million to the permanent taxes, or to perpetuate to that amount the war taxes now imposed on the country. This most extraordinary and burden.-ome measure was in troduced and nearly carried through their Lordships' House, without one word from Ministers in any of its stages to explain its necessity ; so that Ministers shewed a contempt for that House equal to the indif ference they betrayed for the stifferings.of the people. This was a most important measure ; and the moment when it was proposed a most critical one. He must again repeat, what he had urged on so many occasions, that the crisis in which we were placed urgently in culcated the strictest economy, and admonished us most feelingly to husband our resources for the mo ment when the stress of the struggle must be borne by the spirit, the courage, and the resources of the country in which we Lord HARROWBY supported the Bill. He maintained that it must be attended both with imme diate and future advantage. It was attended with good at the moment, in as much as it prepared the people to pay the taxes with which they were at pre. sent buithened. It must be attended with advantages in future, by affording Ministers an opportunity of judging of the best means of making the existing taxes most effectual. Lord GRENVILLE explained, He declared his opinion that our system, in the present state of affairs, was one of husbanding and defence. We had nothing to do with sending an army to the Continent. That he might not be misunderstood, he expressly stated that our Government ought not to have sent an army to Spain. Such had always been his opinion. The Noble Lord asked, why did he not tell this sooner ? He did, on the first day of the present Session explain these to be his sentiments, and complain that Minis ters by not consulting Parliament on the subject dur ing the last Session, had not afforded him an earlier opportunity of stating what his opinion was. If Spain could not defend themselves, in his judgment, any army we could send into the Peninsula would be of no avail. All that we had a right to do was to provide them as far as was in our power with arms, clothes, and ammunition. He begged also to state as a proof of the increase of our expenditure, that the single article of transports had encreased from mil lions to 3' millions. The Earl of Liverpool, Lord Sidmouth, and Lord Grenville again explained ; after which, the Bill was read a third time and passed. SUITOIts BILL IN SCOTLAND. After a few words from the Lord Chancellor and Lord Grenville, on the mode or proceeding i n th e Bill for the Relief of Suitors in the Court of Session in Scotland, whether the object might be best accom plished by the Bill now before the House, or by an instruction to the Commissioners for the improvement of the Administration of Justice in Scotland, to pro. vide for the same by an Act of Seders& ? the Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed. The other Bills on the table were forwarded. Adjourned at half-past 11 o'clock till this day. HOUK! OF COMMONS. A message from the Lords announced their Lot:Ships assent to the Irish Militia Pay 1 3iU,Local Militia (without amendment) and several private Bills. The third reading of the Prize. Monty Bill was deferred til: to-morrow. L o rd STOfFIDEtD reported from the Bar,that his Majest• h a d been wai d upon with the Address of the House for a Mu flum es)/ to Captain Hardinge, and that his Majesty had b e . g . 0a ; i y pleased to t.ivt.• order in con!'orrnity theret o . bile.l.ooKliAlt I prtseated a Petition from certain Own of stage Coaches *gains,. the Bill now pending in Parliament (•-• John Sinclair's) for regula,in g th e num b er of Outside Passenger. on stag( Coaches, and praying to be heard by Counsel agaiiist the Bill. The Petition was lald'un the table till the Report on the gill ahould be received. The MlEtkry Comtnissiotrrs puled; as were also the Pension. Bill, the Colonial Penalties Bill, the Seamen's Wages Bill. The African Coffee Duties Bill, read a second time, and committed Mr. TIGHE, in consequence of to move for certain Papers, respecting Roads,. of Ireland.—After some discussion the motion was withdrawn. Mr. CURWEN moved that the Report presented by Captain Manby, on a method of saving stranded Ships, should be printed. —Agreed to. The Report on the Friendly Societies Bill was taken into fur ther consideration, and the Bill ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. The Irish Offices Bill, and the Irish Tontine Bill, went through Committees. Reports to be received to-morrow, and the latter to he read a third time. The Report of the Irish Bog-Druinage Bill was received, and ' the Bill ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. Lord CASTLEREAGH stated, that be would have felt it to be his dirty to have moved a Vote of Thanks for the services per formed against the enemy in the Basque Roads ; but from the drcumstance of the Commander in Chief on that occasion having demanded a Court Martial, he found it necessary to postpone the execution of his intention for some time. Sir F. BURDETT moved, that there be laid before the House a Return of the Droits of the Admiralty, and the Droits of the Crown, since the Accession of his Majesty, and of the application of the same.—Ordcred. Sir F. BURDETT, in consequence of an answer from Mr. Huskisson that many reports of Medical Men sod Architects were as yet wanting on the subject, deferred his motion respecting Colonel Gordon's house at Chelsea. Mr. BANK ES, after noticing that it would make no additional expence to the country, moved for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the steps taken in consequence of the Report made in Lune last, by the Committee upon the Improve ments of Westminster, and to make their observations thereon. —The motion being agreed to, a Committee was named. Mr. WHITBREAD observed, that a notice he hadgiven lately in a Committee, having, from a point of order (not being given in the House), been omitted in the order book, be had now to re peat it to the House. From the loss of time that had ensued from this omission, be was aware nothing could be done at this late pe riod of the Session, and was therefore contented to give notice, that he would to-morrow move for the appointment of a Coto- Imittee to inquire into the propriety of limiting the number of Members of Parliament holding offices under the Crown. While upon his legs, the Hon. Gentleman wished to know if any answer had been received from Edinburgh to the letter from the Treasury, on the subject of premium paid on Bills from that City on London, containing the Stamp-office remittances. He also renewed his remarks on the employment of 26 Deputies at the public expence of £32,000, and said if Government did not take steps to remedy this evil, he would make it the object of a specific motion next Session. Mr. HUSKISSON replied, that the letter to Edinburgh had embraced a variety of topics and inquiries, which it required some time to answer, and u a general answer to the whole of these points was expected, none had as yet been received. With respect to the Deputies he had to state, that one Vacancy bad lately oc eurred, en which the Commissioners of the Stamp Office bad been instructed by the Government to make new regulations in that matter, which would have the effect of remedying the evil lately brought into notice. Committer to: 4. 31 of those of win, received were under _ than the anieunt of the labourer. The bounty in pay of the Clergy he then sheaved wouldle 44) years in increasing their incomes to seso per annum, 120 years before it increased either to £lOO, and before it could augment them to £l5O two centuries must elapse. While that Hoots so liberally voted sums to beautify towns, and effect improvements in the metropolis, he trusted they would not be averse to granting a sum to ameliorate ithe condition of the Clergy. He then moved as a resolution 4 , That the sum of £m,* be granted to his . Majesty to enable him to give that sum to the Governor and Trustees of Queen Anne's bounty for the augmentation of the pay of the Poor Clergy, to be by them applied to the augmentation of the pay and the maintenance of the Poor Clergy, without any fee or deduction whatever." This resolution would enable them to effect in four years what other. wise would not be accomplished in less than forty . —, He then spoke of an intention to propose an Address to his Majesty, praying that he would be graciously.' pleased to order an inquiry into the state of the Church of Scotland, as in Scotland, though there were fewer poor livings than in England, the Church was not supported with suitable dignity. Lord MILTON thought that many persons hold l ing small livings were far from being objects of chat rity. 1 While a plurality of livings were allowed, the nembei of the poor clergy would bear no proportioril to the number of small livings. Mr. S. THORNTON spoke in favour of the Re solution. Mr. WILBERFORCE said, a small sum be stowed on the poor clergy might render many fami lies, now bending beneath the pressure of indigence, comfortable and at ease, as their wishes were as cir- cumscribed as their means. Those who valued the established church as he did, would feel that it ought to be rescued from a state of sordid poverty. He was proud of such a motion being brought forward at a period when the House of Commons was so fre quently - censured for granting pensions apd places. That was a motion malevolence could not detract from ; it was not brought forward from any interested motive, but emanated solely from a wish to amelio rate the condition of those who had the strongest claim on their humanity. It had often . beon said, &At the poorer orders of the people had not the, means attending public worship ; he thought it a scandal to' the country that not more than one mit' of . ten could be accommodated in the churches. 'Vim situated, they ought not to be censured for Seeking relitious instruction elsewhere. He thought some means ought •to be devised for giving them more fully the benefit of attending public worship. A conversation ensued, in which Mr. Rom, Mr. . WILBERFORCE, Sir J. NEWPORT, Lord H. PETTY. Mr. CURWEN Mr. BABINGTON, Mr. PALMER, Mr. D. GIDDY, AT. PARNELL, Mr. D. BROWN, Lord MILTON, dr. THOMPSON, and Sir JOHN SINCLAIR, participated • after which The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER re plied to the principal observations of the several speakers. He praised the Governors and Trustees of the Queen Ann's Bounty, who were as attentive as any men could be to the interests of the Church.— With respect to the circumstance of small livings being held by those who possessed larger, he could not think that generally the case ; it was more fre quently found, that two rich livings were held • by the same individual than a large and a small one. Then• might be such cases, but he believed them so few, that they were not worthy of particular consideration.l He concluded, expressing his satisfaction at the una nimous sentiment of the House being in favour of the poor Clergy. The Resolution was then put, and carried. DR. CARTWRICHT. The . CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose for the purpose of proposing, that there be given to the Rev. Dr. Cartwright some remuneration, in consequence of the loss sustained by him in his en deavours to ameliorate the cotton manufactory by the invention of looms, &c. to be be worked by ma chinery, which were of great and confessed utility : The Right Honourable Gentleman, after adverting to the memorial made on this Gentleman's behalf, by.twenty or thirty respectable persons, stated that fi om the evidence of a person examined before the Committee, the Rev. Dr. Cartwright had ex pended no less than 30 or 40,0001. in this species of useful improvement. He trusted the House would evince its liberality, by representing the country in an alt of generosity, he should not say remuneration, to an individual, upon the ruins of whose private for• tune the public had laid the foundation of great ad vantages, and not suffer him to be the victim of a prejudice, which by ignorant persons had been shewn towards his exertions. The Hon. Gentleman con cluded, by proposing the grant of 4'10,000 to the Rev. Dr. Cartwright, as a reward of his useful la bour in the improvement of the cotton machinery. • After a few words from Mr. W. SMITH, in ge neral testimony to the laudable exertions of the inge nious Doctor s the sum was unanimously voted . The following sums were likewise voted for the purposes as specified : For the Printing of the Journals - £3,057 1 8 For the Preservation of the Timber in the New Forest 4,500 0 0 For the Building of the Royal Naval Asylum, and the Support of that Establishment for the year 1809 - 35,000 • 0 The Chairman brought up the Report, which was ordered to be received td-morrow. SEATS IN PARLIAMENT. • Mr. CURWEN having moved the reading of the . Order of the Day for resuming the consideration.Of the said Bill in Committee, .the order of the day be' ing read, the House accordingly resolved into the said', Committee.—Many clause s w ere by mutual consen t of both sides, struck out of the Bill, and some others amended. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER pro: posed a new clause, by which the bona/de purchase of lands, tenements, &c. under burghage tenure, should not be considered illegal. Mr. W. SMITH said, that whatever advantag should be derived from this Bill, would be to clearly what heretofore had been concealed under mask. If any person, unacquainted previously wit its nature, were to read the clause proposed and Bill itself, he would not, he believed, suppose the me; to have any connection with the latter. 801 was read a third time; and calla-the -attention of the C Duty Bill, the Warehtnase Duty Livings of the Clergy, 113 ' the Irish Distil/cries Bill, and accounts had been already in, and Judges Salary Bill, were per annum, an income less led 'for to-morrow. earnings of the meanest LA of his notice of yesterday, rose tended to augm ent the pa &c. ? ecring Roads, in the North , thp.,,pet wnilid44 years ii VOTIC OF CREDIT. Mr. HUSKISSON moved the order of the day for the third reading of this Bill. Sir THOMAS "I'URTON stated his opinion at, some length, that he would not give one shilling from the resources of this country to either Spain or Aus tria, unless he was well assured that the people of both countries were warmed wits a spirit of resistance against the common enemy, and that Spain would erase from her apparent jealousy,and join her fleet from Cadiz with the British fleet in the Mediterranean. General TARLETON took a full yiew of the present Continental war, and two last campaigns contending that economy was peculiarly necessary at this moment, and that defensive was more the hue rest of this country than offensive war. lie con demned the appointment of Marquis Wellesley ai Ambassador to Spain, and thought a military officer woull have been more proper at the present juncture. Mr. CURWEN wished the vote wats six, instead of three millions, after the cheering accounts that had been just received ; and expressed his opinioe ti that we ought to make common cause with Austria, and spare no money to enable Ministers on their re -1 sponsibility to assist her with no parsimonious hand. It was in Austria that the fate of Spain and Portugal would be determined, and be was glad to thiek that Bonaparte had met with a reverse of fortune while Parliament was sitting, as by an expression of their opinion, Ministers might be encouraged to take a bolder line than they would otherwise dare to do on their own accord. Lord CASTLEREAGH declined following Gen. Tarleton, either in his view of past campaigns which had already been discussed in the House, or in the pre sent campaign, in which Britain was fighting the cause of Europe; Those countries who, struggling for their liberty, dared to oppose the aggressions of France, he trusted, would ever find Britain ready to espouse their cause ; that, confident of experiencing her as. sistancc and support, they might not sink . in despair , on the first reverses c f fortune. With respect to the suggestion of the Honourable Gentleman on the fa yeurable turn of affairs in Austria, however brilliant the news of the day might turn out to be, it was the duty of his Majesty's Ministers to pursue .a steady course, and alike avoid being elevated by the success •f the moment, er depressed by the misfortunes which might befal our allies. By the bravery of our men and the skill of our officers, we were at this mo ment rescuing Portugal from the grasp of the ene my, and at the same time, by introducing discipline among the population of that country, and gay ing them British Officers to lead them to glory, enabling- them to offer an effectual and lasting resistance to the en croachments of France. It was not fair, therefore, to take the gloomy view of our operations the Hon. General had done. He paid a tribute of applause to the conduct of Sir Arthur Wellesley, and the gallant atchievements of the British army, in the passage of the Douro and campaign against Soult. In this campaign 16,000 French had been driven from Por tugal, with the loss of their artillery, baggage, and every thing that could constitute an army ; and in 18 days a march of 380 miles had been performed. He therefore thought the Hon. General had under rated those services, and seemed to say, that if the command in Portugal had been entrusted to himself, all would be well. Ministers, however, did not think they could employ a more excellent General than Sir Arthur Wellesley. With respect to what had fallen from the last Hon. Member who addressed them, it was always his wish that the country should be as little inclined to be too sanguine in prosperity, as too desponding iu adversity. General TARI.ETON explained. . After a few words from Mr. HERBERT, the Lill was read a third time and passed. SMALL LIVINGS. Ina Committee of Supply for the further consi deration of sums to be voted to his Majesty, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER speeches that *hale of the. tage would indeed be a fool and dotard ilthb , wouli see take - care not to make an express" agortkoMent. ler a Government of the country were setting their with against the most wholesome provir.iona .of the I the they had dashed the hopes of the, public, and on I for wonld rest the responsibility of all the speeches Tjie :tvegaiiibe made on the subject; during the sitholec Had. Gentleman having adverted to the 40th of Ol t present reign, respecting the nature of borou g h Cl a i ms n propose as a clause," That no p h i e iet w or oud should l be entitled to co mpen . sation, unless he made a declaration to the effect of i Boroughr Ir el and, a sa i d,P r o not having been influenced in his election vote by ar, consideration, and that the person convicted of a ct i ng contrary to s uch declaration should forfeit any title to compensation for the loss of proprietorship which he may subsequently incur." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, for the same reason as the Hon. Gentleman had given. concerning bid clause, could not perceive the relevancy of that proposed by the Hon. Gentleman himself. Iu fact, his (Mr. PercevaPs) clause was not confined to burghaere tenure purchasers only, but the purchase of lands, &c. in any other way. The Hon. Gentleman would do as well to postpone his observations on the butghage tenure, till its abolition was brought forward as a legislative measure. A long conversation took place on the clause origi nally proposed by the Chancellor of the Exe.tequer, in which Mr. Tieltney, Mr. W. Smith, the Attorney. General, Sir J. Anstruther, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Lord Porchester. and Lord Milton, p e e ticipated. Eventually the original clause was ag ree d to without a division ; and Mr. Smith withdrew his proposed clause. Thee HANCELLO R of the EXCHEQUER pro. posed a clause, by which those persons who obtained their returns by an express agreement for the gra ning of offices should be deprived of their seats, and that those individuals who procured such returns for others, by an express agreement for the granting of offices, should be subject to certain penalties. Lord H: PETTY contended, that if the present clause were adopted, the Bill, instead of annihilating corruption, would concentrate and consolidate it. It one road alone were left open, by which the posses sors of borough influence could turn that influence to a profitable account, that road would unquestionably 'be frequented by them, and tht whole of that influ ence would be thrown into the hands of the Treasury. The term " express agreement," which alone actor. dinglY to the proposed clause, would subject an in dividual to the penalties of the Bill, was a kind of proclamation, that a transaction not founded on an " express" agreement, might be carried on with im punity. If the Act were not to be equally applicable to Offices, and to . money, he thought it would be infinitely better to have no Act at all. He moved 'an-amendment to the clause, leaving out the wool " express." The CHANCELLOR of die EXCHEQUE* 4 repeated his former statement, that in the ease of a grant cif an office to an individual who had either the right of voting himself, or the power of influencing others, a Jury would in most cases declare that such a grant was in consequence of a vote given, or in eit - pectation of a vote to be given. There was a necessity therefore for the term " express agreement;" or.other wise all interchange of good ffices, and all gratitude for favours, would be at an end Sir J. ANSTRUTHER declared that it was libel on the Juries of the country to suppose that they were not competent to distinguish ,W the cases shpt might be brought before them. He adverted to , the circumstance in which the present bill originated, namely, the conduct of 4 Secretary of State, which conduct he characterized as most bungling, and con• tended that it was the intention of the ,:haneellor of the Exchequer only to prevent the repetition of such bungling conduct, and alrolutely to legalize every other description or conduct under similar circum. stances. By the proposed clause the , Minister would he at liberty to make as many agreements as he thought proper, provided he did not allow the agree. ment to appear oh the face of the transaction, !qr. LITTLETON deClared ' that the present clause was se obnoxious, to him, that if it Were adop ted, he should, however reluctantly, f _ eel' to vote againit the bill. Mr. ABBOTT (the Speaker) thought the present an embarrassing case. He thought it right to strike at a flagrant case, but he thought it right to take care at the same time not to strike at any thing which it 'h , tis not intended to strike at. He should - vote for the clause as it originally stood, with the term, " press agreement ;" but he contended, that the ofe fences not included within that term, 'were misde meanors, and were punishable by the common law. As the principal offence would meet with the exinci. pal punishment, and as no offence would go without punishment, he should except the clause as it stood, and leave to experience to make• any further enact ment* that alright be thought isecessary. Mr. PONSONBY regretted differing from the Right Honourable Gentleman. When-the law de clared, that a person should be pueished for. an." presiagreement;" an instruction was distinctly implied to the courts of law, that an individual was noun be punished who had not entaredttnto such tin u-express agreement.". The law thus framed•would favour the case of an implied .egreeroent by conteadistinguishing it from ihe express agreement.; end .at least enhance the diffieulty of punishing those whose agreement sae . . implied and not expitssed. Mr. ABBOTT wished it to .be distinctly under stood, that the ground on which, he should vote upon the present case was, that the offence omitted in the clause, would nevertheless not , go unpunished, as it was a misdemeanor by the existing statute. Mr. PONSONBY . persisted In his former state- •• 1 Mr. TIERNgY alkared mitla the Right Hon. Gentleman'opposite . (bit—Abtxstt) that any n-ansac tion of the nature alluded .t although no; founded on an 4 , express agreement," was contrary to the law of Parliament, and to the common law of the :land, yet contended that it would be most extraordinary to abstain from including an implied contract or agree ment in the purview of the present bill, and declared, that in his opinion, If it were so omitt ed the bill would be worth nothing. The Gentlemen opposite, professed to assist the Hon. Gentleman by whom the present bill was introduced. They had assisted him in getting rid of every part of the bill that could be useful and satisfactory to the public. If an express agreement alone were to be within the , purview of the bill, he ‘ld not The faces bill,'. them,