Star. — London, England, 1819-12-07 00:00:00

A ,l i tter mode were preferred , the opportun i ty ;ki n g tile °fit would be on the cßtesticto, that :spTIERdo leave the. Chair. rt,r, NEY conceived, that in order to mark c , s e of the importance of such a provision, the aol ielit by all meatii to take the moat rental o f introducing the limitation. Re thought, !, that the House should come to a resole ,strocting the Committee not to pas; the Bill l o nger period than five years. CASTLEREAGH said, that the manner of ,ing the proposition was perketly simple. 'lf yaourable Member should move for a shorter nun than five years, he should then move an lent, that the period be extended to five years, ce the sense of the Ilouse upon it. If no Ho le Member meant to propose an Amendment, All then submit his - proposition to the Mouse. t h e elution, that the Report be now taken into c onsideration, i.CURWEN rose, to submit a few observations ! House. lie thought the Bill then under con- Fision to be objected to on two grounds; that it was weak and inefficient towards who deserved to be the objects of severe mea and next'that it was calculated to destroy the • the subject generally. There should be a distinction taken between the leaders of these Igs, and those who are led by them. Against -.tilers he was ready to concur in any measure rty ; for he firmly believed that, if the Noble o pposite expressed'u wish towards Reform, r the majority would rejoice, these leaders feel a great degree of uneasiness. Seeing, ;that the Bill aimed rather at the subversion g eneral right, than the just punishment of w rew, he felt apprehenaions , dial it was only the ncr of others still Earths, invading the public . The whole country;' he could assure the Lord, felt extremely jealous at these measures. ~..,pension of the Habeas Corpus Act, and par ,r:y the Indemnity Bill; made. a very strong iot a, unfavourable to:the Administration. The in favour of Partiamentark Reform was : .1117 every where, and if the House didwot•re iself, the object might be effected in a =timer ill must lament. Tonly means of restoring the country, was to 'remove the over taxa sier which it laboured.• When the whole nof its property was under three hundred mil how was it possiblethat it should continue to ity millions of taxes? He was astonished to the Noble I:ord on a former night attribute - distresses to the state of the American mar 4'as it possible that other countries should be indful of the system of monopoly and exclusion h England had so long practised against them, %ski rot now be desirous of practising it in en against her? He then complained of 'the rah which the present Bill had been drawn up, ..• . mted that it should not have been so framed the wishes of every constitutional Member. T. FITZGERALD expressed his satisfaction the alteeations proposed by his Noble Friend, ,ost r,articularly at that which excluded from ,oration Of the Bill all Meetings held within He could not have acquieseed in a measure ::would have taken away from a whole country - ; 1-.1. - toltielf It had always exercised without din :ad would have prevented the Catholics of Ire rom approaching the Throne with a statement reir grievance's. He was doubly glad that his :le..Friend should have suggested the alteration ‘self, without waiting till it had been pointed out Aers, as it chewed that the ,spirit in which he .ed aid not tend tc represi Meetings, but to render • secure. In the course of Alan' , yews no Meet af Roman Catholics of ;Ireland had been I at ! , led with any tumult, or tny menacing. prep•ars..; As they were ,chieflv held, however, in the els of their yarn persuaiion, it would perhaps be ssary to introduce the wdrds of Courts, Chapels, lApartments,intO the Clause, in order tolcave no mbt upon the subject. Sr ROBERT WILSON conceived, that, his Ma , Ministers deserved to be impeached for the maul measures which they were now endeavour., to tarty. They were designed to break dovin fences of our laws, to subvert the very elements tour Constitution; aiid:to -deprive the People of • liberties! His object, within and without the of that House, was not to hold inflammatory ;uage; but every Member who felt properly, It to express his feelings openly; otherwise he dd be abetting and aidmg an the ruin et his try. The state to which the Country was t.ow iced ]tad been produced by misrule, by inatten to the complaints of the People, by a refusal to , 'ss their wrongs, till the expression of accu- 1 ea suffering s was attended with mennot andl i. It was violence that psovoked discontent shed bl o od w ithout atoning for it. Had the le Lord adopted 3 syStem of cducaiation;. he. reel have been one of the first to support any me te measure. But if the Government of the my was to be turned into a Government of farce, lid riot care how sanguinary the laws were made, itether he should be their first or last victim ! lea', /oar). It might be deemed seditious to use •:..s of " Liberty or death" in the House, but ,As (me of those who would mitt relinquish freer but with life! He then contended, that Mr. Lord Bathurst, and the other Senators who v)led for the Riot Act, at the use of its pees h. lad afterwards severely repented the vote Iva, '.ey bad given. Ile objected to the Bill far o a ms to be saized, and particularly to the clause q 1 auila......Y.td constables, with a Magistrate's , • :Ilan% to break into any house at night. A man thus be forced to admit robbers under the dis ••,? ff constables; or if he resisted, and killed a ; "' n 't4 l,l e, before he knew who be was, he would not d fur murder, 'but as a rebel. Such si Act ad been passed in the time of William the Third. the Papists in Ireland, but even then the " 1 " arms was only allowed in the day tilee•—•". It was the excuse for this change—for this; • ' ~f the rights of EngliShmen? Truly nothieg, ,• ea ant's plea r the plea of Richard lU. for '-orders he had committed!— :. V hat' think yon we are Turks or Infidels? 0. that sw: would, against the form of Law, I 'rqc , 94l thus rashly— : 1 . 1 that the extreme peril of the earn, • Ivace of England, and our Person's 'irifi.4y, us to this execution r Z:'" ll 4at Ger.eisal then complained of the regula-, tions about to be enforced by Ministers to controul the Libeity of the Press, and maintained, that, by subject ing all editors of Newspapers to the punishment of transportation, they would prevent men of respecta.: bility and property from engaging in that profession. He conceived that the surest means of hurling reli gion from the rock on which it stood, was an attempt to defend it by other arms than those of " peace and, good will toward' men." He recommended to the Church not to forget that it was a church of pcace,and to its members, not to exchange the pastoral staff for the ensigns of Magisterial authority, not to connect themselves with Riot Acts add military executions, and not to display the passions of men, when their duty was to illustrate the mercies of their GOD I By , their present system, Ministers were 'levying war on the People, and let them not rest sati.,fied with the hope that all the burthen would be thrown on pos terity. Let them not say, like Louis XIV. when he was told that his measures would bring ruin on I. successors—" after me, the deluge." If they perie vered in their present course, they themselves would ' be swept away by the torrent, and where weuldthey find an ark to give them refuge ?—(Herr, hear, hear). He then complained of the haste with which the measures were pressed through the •House, prevent ing the possibility of petitioning against them. He contended that the large majorities by which they had been siipported, would contribute most effec tually to convince the country that it was under the favour of those places and pensions which had been so often reproved, that the Noble Lord was enabled to come to Parliament, not only without meeting with punishment, but with encouragement and tri umph, to propose measures that violated. the Bill of Rights and all other rights, and if adopted, would amount to an act of suicide on the part of the House. There WAS but one mode left, to counteract these at, . tempts. Let all the independent men, on all siderof . the House, combine together. Let them raise the ;great Constitutional Siandard—Let them say ".Nor Is emus leges Anglice mutari"—Let them do that, and: k let them safely "ride on the whirlwind and direct the storm !”—(Hear, hear, bear). . Mr. GRENFELL stood as distant in qpinions, from his Honourable and Gallant Ft iend, as one po:e was ftom the other... His Honourable and Gallant Friend had said, that his Majesty's Ministers deserved im• peachment for the measures which they had propo sed. Now this sentence 'of condemnation must in volve, not only the Noble Lord opposite, but all those who supported his measures; and as he was arse of those, he must consider himself as in the ranks of the impeached--(Hear, heir). His Honourable and Gal lant Friend had said, that he was not in the habit of holding inflammatory language within or without the walls of the House—(No, furors Sir Robert Wil son). Hadhis Honourable and Gallant Friendahen forgotten what had taken place on the hustings in the Borough of Southwark ?—(Hear, hear). Had he for gotten how he shook hands and gave the.fraternal embrace to Mr. Hunt ?—(Repeated cheers radiome ter). Did he not recollect uttering these words— " This country is the most degraded country in . the world ?"—(Repeated cheers). Or did he mean to say that that was mot violent language ?—(Hear, hear). His .Honourable and Gallant Friend had said, that a time would come, when those who supported the present measures would repent their folly. If that should ever be the case, he would not come to his Honourable and Gallant Friend to have his tears wiped away—(Hear, hear). He should not follow him through. his remarks on measures that were not before the House ; but with respect to the limitation proposed by the Noble Lord to the duration of the present Bill, he should only say, that if it were re duced to a shorter period, he should conceive that the v,hole measure was rendered unavailing. Sir ROBERT WILSON explained why he shook hand; with Hunt. He had done so because he consilered him as standing forward in support of the liberties of his country—(Hear, hear !)--He would have been a,hamed had he not done so; and more ashamed if he had given a hand to those. stained with the blood of their countrymen !—( Hear !) • Mr. BLAKE begged to assure the House, that he would feel it to be his most imperative duty to con sume but a very small portion of its time. He had listened with the most profound attention, and with the most extreme regret, to the speech of the Ho nourable and Gallant General: it was a speech re plete with mischief, however well intended. The Gall int General adverted to the measure• recent: menled, which had for its object, as he said, to ,put down the Liberty, of the Press ; but it had be such effect, and 'for the truth of this he could refer to an authority, which, at least by the Gal lant General, would not he disputed. He meant the first political essay published by Mr. Cobbett upon his return to England, and having reference, expressly, to those,measures, he tells his readers, that notwithstanding those measures, there would be Liberty of the Press enough for him yet left ; now if there be liberty enough for Mr. Cobbett, he would I beg to know if the gallant General could complain ? 1 The gallant General had also described the other measures as a violent encroachment upon the Constiel tutional rights and liberties of Englishmen ; but h4' could not view them in the same light. He (Mr, Blake) thought them necessary defences for the Come stitution, the vital parts of which were so Incessantlyi and formidably attacked :—even if more were re- 1 quired, he would almost assent, upon the principle that amputation of a limb would be better than the dissolution of the whole body. The gallant General ,attributed the disturbances of the country to the mis rule of his Majesty's Ministers, and contended that the pi esent measures were unnecessary, and wantonly imposed by Ministers. But he (Mr. Blake) would not agree in this conclusion, nor would he attribtite' those distusl)apces, or the measures now propoth4l.l even to the Radicals themselves, while he was coo-1 -einced that it was such speeches as that just meet delivered, that first inflamed the disaffected, mai enabled them to delude a large portion or their dit; tressed fellow-subjects.---( Hear, hear, hear) It was doctrines such as were inculcated by the Ciall; lent General that led to the tragic scene at. Menthes-, ter—(Hear)—and, if the Gentlemen opposite stopped i and rallied round the Constitution, instead of convuls ing the Nation by a motion for inquiry, It would be unnecessary to have recourse to any new law upon the - subject. This course would have emoted peace and tranquillity of the Country by its 40.4 and give reason to hope that popu lar measures w on ensue. But this was not the only mistake commit*d ~;r on the other side. No man admired the integrity 'of heart, which was prevalent amongst the Gentleme on the other side of the House, more than he did; but their heads were not formed for political govern ment. Much had been said about refusing the Par liamentary inquiry into the conduct of the ANlanches ter Magistrates; he was glad the question had been amply investigated, and decided on its merits; bbt still he would chew, that if that inquiry had taken place, and the delinquency of the Magistracy proved before the House, the course insisted upon, if adopted, would have precluded the punishment of the Magi strates. It was laughable to think that the best way to screen the Magistracy was to.vote for that inquiry. He would state the result in a few words. There were four different modes of prosecution; three of these were left to the injured individuals : there was the action, the indictment before the Grand Jury, and 1 the information in the King's Bench, in the name of 1 thesKing's Coroner, on affidavits of the facts. The I fourth was reserved for the Crown, and must be re sorted to upon an Address, praying the Prince Re-: gent to direct a prosecution. An ex officio informa- I lion, is the only remedy left to the CrOwn, which, ,I when filed, would enable the defendants to come in i and • produce the Letter of Thanks from the Crown, 1 -which would amount to a special plea in Bar, for it *Would amount to more than a pardon; it is a release by the Crown of all right of prosecution for the fact therein alluded to, to that in effect the motion for an ftiquiry was, ,if carried; the sate 'way to protectthe Magistrate!; 'if guilty, lend to nonsuit the Crown„ while those who opposed that motion still leave the Magistrates liable upon the other three forms before- Sientioned. The Honourable Member (Mr. Blake) expressed his satisfaction that the subject, although it had agitated the Country, was so ably' discussed on both sidesyfor by this the People will see that mei-il sures are trot carried here by the ipse dixit of ane - ' Minister; that Honourable Members 'were not drilled in thevntes itrhiA they . g, ave;aaoften insinuates, and that they at all events labonr, • intending to do that Which is right 1; their honest judgment. He begged rdon for having obtruded himself; he was no Law-. ger, and, therefore, might be mistaken, but he could not resist the impulse, when he considered the inflam matory tendency Of the speech of the Gallant Gene ral, calculated as it was to mislead and to encourage r aise population td open violence— (Hear, hear). ' 1 Mr. 'RICARDO observed, that if the right of pp; -I:itioning were the only'right Which the People were I to enjoy, it would be'of but litde value to theni.The very essence of it, he conceived, was to meet in large numbers, and shew sixth a front to Ministers as would get the wishes of the Petitioners to be attended to, and procure bad measures ao be abandoned. It was the same *4th the House itself, which was a check upon the Crown. If they could do nothing more ,than pass Resolutions, it was but of small avail ; but :so enforce them they were armed *ith the power of withholding the supplies, and calling forth public opposition, so that the GovernMent could not become despotic. He did not deny but that the etercise of the right of meeting might be attended with grave in vonventencies. Distresses had arisen, and might arise, over the causes of *bich no Government could have apt' toinnifil, and of these, designing men might take advide:agelO s iteite a mischievous spirit.- He was 'not averse to i checking such machinations, but he slid not confider that the measures before them were a sufficient check. That was only to be found in a Re form which should place the House in a situation to express the sense of the whole People, and not in a right to petition, which could only be employed by a part of the Radical -Reformers. He expressed his opinion, that though many among them were bad and designing men, yet there were others who ho nestly entertained the belief, that Universal Suffrage and Annual Parliaments were necessary to the salva tion of the country. He did not agree with them, but he gave them credit for sincerity; and, for his part, expected the same, when he declared that he thought a Reform, far short of what they demanded, would satisfy every desirable cbject, and that it would' be wrong to proceed one Step further. Mr:WAITHMAN opposed the measurers, asthe People had not had time to express their sentiments upon them. -- ITC wished -to -know what was the ne- 1 sessity for the hurry now manifeste d, seein g that three months had elapsed since the .Manchester Meeting, in which they originated, and no inconven nience had arisen out of that delay ? Adverting the Prince Regent's answer to the Common Council Address, telling the Citizens that they were not in formed on the subject, he wondered that Ministers, who were informed, had not yet thought prOper to satisfy the country. Notwithstanding all the pa produced, he had still to learn an" fact which could induce him to alter his opinion, He then entered at large into the 'business of the Smithfield Meeting, and arrest of Harrison, insisting, that if any resistance, had taken place, the Military were at hand to do as they had done at Manchester. These Meetings he, did not meats to say were jestifiable ; he had always thought them dangerous and impolitic; foolish be.' yend descriptien,perrucious, and ofall things the most calculated to impede the cause of rational Reforen r —, But how was the evil to be met ? He contended, by conciliation. If every Nobleman had acted like Lord, Fitzwilliam, that was the way to satisfy the People. The House would do well to pursue the same course.; It was called the Grand Inquest of the Nation, and ltd, duty was to search into the oppressions of Ministers. Often had the People complained, and come to the ear requesting this to be done, but no remedy was afforded; nothing but Gagging Bali and the suspen sion of the Habeas Corpus. And the effect was, that the moment these restraints ceased to operate, the people returned to the charge iti a worse state than ever. What he advised, therefore, was to hear the, people at the Bar, and redress their grievances as far as possible. This wonld be better than listening to declarations of loyalty, which were good for no thing else but to impute disaffection to wirers, and *ere mostly signed by those, who in some way, or other were benefited by the taus laid on the . People, who were forty to one against them.---Having mixed much with the lower and middle ranks, he could as , sure Gentlemen (judging from the Ward which he rep resel oo ' sisted ,house 4 that they were better informed thou mi 5 t be imagined, and would be glad of le i*, in the Government, though he co if,essed that , ir ideas of Refenn might.be -wild. Ant visionary.. they bught not, therefore, col* cal ed reiblu 'v ; if they were So, the doctrines of Sir L. : '. Raymond and Mr. Granville Sharpe, the beit of • -s men, were revolutionary. The distress to which 'he attributed the evils a the times, had arisen , from want of a due Representation. The mid. die classes had been broken down till they could not find work for the lower orders, and the measure now proposed, far from mending this state of affairs, could only depress them further till the spirit burst out like a volcano, and brought ruin on all around. The whole was a piece of trickery to cheat the People of the Bill of Rights, and of their liberties, which they did not owe to Government, but for which they . had fought and bled. He would tell the House, • then, what sort of measuiZ would do away the dis order. It would be, to agree to a Resolution, pray_- . ing the Prince Regent to dismiss his Ministers. This would change all the remonstances into congratula• tions, and restore tranquillity to the Country. But, instead of that, it was proposed to put down the Constitution; and if it was allowed to be done for five years, they would be no more either Britons. or freemen. On the occasion of all preceding fer ments, or even rebellions, • no steps of this kind- had been resorted to. He referred to the period of Chinks H. when Resolutions of the People had been stifled, and were not heard of for a time, but , immediately after the Revolution broke out. This was the model on which Ministers seemed determined , to proceed, forgetful that the Revolution had insured that freedom of the Press, and freedom of speech.. which they were now legislating to overthrow.-- They were told, that if they wished for a Meeting, they might apply to the Lord Lieutenant : but he was appointed by the Crown.. They might apply, too, to the Sheriff, who was appointed he knew not how ; and then they might resort to five Justices, who _ surely, it was said, would not refuse them. But they had found, by experience, that at a time when three millions of Taxes were to be imposed upon the People, the Lord Mayor had refused to convene a Meeting. These legislative steps they were to take without absolutely any information ; for the anony- , moue witnesses-he could take for nothing. The story which haefbeen told of 7060.merf attending a Meet ing with arms, had turned out only to be true "of inga in buckram." They had been toad that respectable Magistrates would not give erroneous statements re► vecting the districts under their charge m but had .. they forgotten that the Lord Mayor of London had declared that he had Teseived information, on oath, of a plot to set fire to the City, and to murder all the inhabitants ?—( Hear, hear). —Why was not this plot to be found in the Papers before the House ? ( Hear, hear)—especially as the Lord Mayor had given information on the subject to Lord Sidmouth. A serious consideration was, that it was out of the district now said to be thus infected with revolu tionary principles ; that the army had always been, and, if it became necessary, would again be recruited. He could not help thinking it a delusion to cry up those as disaffected, into whose hands the Ministers • would not scruple tb put arms. At other times, when the Habeas Corpus had been suspended, we had been assailed by powerful foreign enemies. We were now, with no foreign cause of alarm, to cut off , the most valuable parts of the Constitution. He con tended that the Meetings in parishes of small popu lation would be quite insufficient to convey the po pular feeling, as the persons meeting would be un der the immeJiate controul of powerful individuals. The cause of the evils of the country, he contended, was• to be found in the continuance of a war expen diture, at a time when our competition with foreign countries compelled the Manufacturers to reduce the price of their commodities, or to be excluded from much of the market which they would otherwise enjoy. He concluded, after expressing his opinion that it was not possible to put down the vs - ,ice of the People, by observing that there was a strong feeling for a sound and rational Reform, and that to satisfy . this feeling would be the best way to procure a free population, fit to defend the Constitution.—Hear, hear. Mr. T. WILSON (Member for the City), said, he felt it to be the duty of every man, boldly to declare his opinion at a critical time, like the present. He owned that poverty and distress were the causes of the disaffection. But as there were no remedies pro posed, immediately to remove those causes, it was their duty to prevent the disaffection from producing other evil consequences. But it was not to be' said that because they supported coercive measures, s h ey were insensible to the ,diAresses of the poor. e Loyal Declarations, which had been incttlpated, were, in his opinion, necessary, to prevent it from being said that the country was unanimously op. posed to such measures as the present—(Hcer, hear). It had been said that the majorities in the House did . not speak the general sense of the Members, becawe there were so many Members on that side who were attached by interest to Ministers. This was true to - . a certain extent—( Hear, hear).--But be asked, if the Gentlemen in opposition would use their patronage to pioduce the same effect, if they obtained the fulfil ment of their wishes ? He thouglit the measures should be continued for at least tour or five years, as there would otherwise be great uneasiness in the country, ando 4emand fOr an Increase of the Stand ir /war). - Mr. G. LAMB was of opinion, that the measures .' in the contemplation of Ministers, would add to the evil they professed to remove. There were two re medies for the distress of the country—one was the equalization of the income with the expenditure, and the other was Pailiarnentary Reform. The taxes fell Much more heavily on the lower than the higher ellisses. It would be highly expedient to take off the tails on salt, malt, and leather, and to impose a di- rest tax on property. It would be for the advantage of justice if the Grand Jury, in the case of the Man chester transactions, should be - released from their oaths. A letter, dated July the sth, just twelve days before the prorogation of Parliament, and signed by five Magistrates, had been sent to.Lord.Sidmouth, stating their apprehensions of the state of things in that part of the country ; and, notwithstanding that information, Ministers had allowed Parliament separate. The Grand Jury at Manchester might•ha , ignored the Bills, in coesequency of not having mined some of ,the witnesses; and one witness given different evidence before the Grand Jury from &at he afterwards gave nu the trial. ' tdatd,srANLE‘ begged to state, that in the event of beineal t led on by Varliament, or in a Coon ' Juraic,e, 111 Grandiorrerr t wat bound to state. his M '•••ona, no twithstanding his oath. aie Mr. B. WILBRAHAM wished to know, if :ore, ttla • ostT eicti• :longer 1 C.lS' uenl7, t• ik e oura ;ion the 0 went, t ake the ~,bye Mei eioald the p a the rr coos! , * * CIO eke House ,fititra .r, that who ti , and to of the distin sgs, an • ;faders ; ('PP° S r the feel :ere, tlt peral tew, .Jarcr o Th e Lord, •.•,pen3i :•;:y the .on, uli '-z in e el all rn. . to the ender ,t of it hose i sixty m the ti dist Was rndful h Eng' should turn a with lament meet . T. 1E ;Otte a yerat. es. HI \ OU fit:: Wil , aod sr from their gi le s Fri self, w other c, :id did iecu of tilt tled •!• A c -sary Apia • bt•cp Sr It( I's :V stem o to c e feno our I •r lib Is of gaag ght t .;Id 1 . twat] aced • to t rtes :11.itC( • ger. shi nuld e • ntr did %elle Vie., , i 1 • t. :11 " v., h ;a •zera r r••:. ; 1. 1 t•S )r 41 1 . / r 1 gl v.if • at • f • ••• i. L , ) , 1, r, Jill • ! 1 ‘ L . o (1. • • 1 't to • have ezra- • had from t I Malt rt of I • • • Mr.