Star. — London, England, 1811-05-10 00:00:00

• ,fA r.elR r PROCEEDING& HOUSE OF LORDS, MAY 9. 'The Lose Coatretttost being detained •at Council at Carl ton Hoope,.did not come down till nearly five o'clock. Prayers were then' read, and the business of :he day immediately en tered. upon. The space below the bar was crowded to t acest fay the slumbers attracted by the important subject which stood fir discussion. The Slave Trade Pelson?. and Irish Loan Bll he s werr rea w d are thir for d thee, and passed. the other Bills uponi ! table e warded. Several private Bills were brought up irons the Com mits by Sirs I. Graham, Thomas hlassterman, and other Mem birs,ond sevesally road a first time. The Customs Offices Regulation BlUwas brotight up from the Cossansoas by Sir I. Graham and read a first time. The Earl of LAUDERDALE took the opportunity of the full VsMdance, to require some explanation from Ministers re goertrtt a point which he deemed of considerable importance. After aAvertlng to certain pros edings of the Boards of Trea- Way, of 1 rade, and of Excise, he said he understood that th that many epstillerswere actually yet distilling from sugar, on the fai eu applieadon would be made to Parliament in their favour, with respect to the ridges. He therefore wished to be informed, if Ministers had ;own notice to those persons, that the application to PArlisnwpt in their favour had not been successful, and that the low of the land, with respect to distillation, most be enforced. Re felt this was as extraordinar y veetion, but these were extra ordinary times ; and with reference to the circumstance, he trusted ft would not be deemed an improper one. Earl BATHURST, in a low tone of voice, replied to what bad fallen from the Noble Earl We could only distinctly hear, that it was proposed to bring In *Bill of Indemnity. The Earl of LAUDERDALE, in reply, observed, that this was the first case of the kind that he remembered; and added, that It aEill of Indemnity were brought kr, as mentioned by the Noble Earl, he should oppose it in every stage in thaz House. Earl BA UHURS I' rose to explain. The revenue, he ob served, was duly taken care of. Those Distillers had entered Into a bond for the payment of the higher duties, if called upon tido so. The ease was far from being a novel one , it occurred many other instances. The Bilis upon the Table were then respectively forwarded. PROTESTANT DISSENTING MINISTERS. The, Order of the Day, upon which their Lord ships were summoned, being read, Lord Viscount SIDMOUTH rose, pursuant to the notice he had given, for the purpose of introdu cing a Bill, the principal object of which was to pre vent the abuses of the Acts of William and Mary, and of his present Majesty, and to extend and render !Imre effectual those ,Acts as far as relates to Protes tant Dissenting Ministers. —He would not, he said, unnecessarily take up their Lordships' time, by a reference to any preliminary considerations. With respect to his motives in thus coming forward, fe trusted a liberal and just de termination would be ormed by the House, and the Country. And he also trusted, that from what he should submit to their Lordships, they would be enabled to decide whether or not the interposition of Parliament was necessary to give effect to the acts in question. The subject before them was one, he thought, which should be an object of anxious solicitude to every individual 91 whatever sect or persuasi on he ma y be, in the country. He meant the correction of the abuses of those important Acts. The dignity, the honour, and the sanctity of the national religion were involved in the consideration. After adverting to the effects of the Reformation to the ecclesiastical policy of the country, his Lordship referred to the principles and policy of the Acts of Toleration, which were chiefly established at the era of the Revolution. He dwelt, principally upon the operation of those Acts as appli cable to Protestant dissenting Ministers ,• and de scribed their provisions with respect to those indivi duals who applied to the Magistracy for licences to Set as religious teachers, or ministers in their respec tive congregations. These provisions, however, he stated, had received a novel interpretation, within the last thirty or forty:yeah. It was well known to the igagistratei, and to those who were conversant in the business of the Quarter Sessions of the Peace, that the general understanding and practice was, that ittiy person whatever , let h is moral or intellectual onalifications be what they may, let his ignorance or lit immorality be what it might, whether he de,,cend ed from a chimney or a pillory, was at liberty to re vile tb the Quarter Sessi o n s, and there to take the oaths, skrtd make the declarations required by the Statuteiovhen he was at liberty. to demand a certifi -Cate of his having so qualified himself, and then to to and preach ally doctrine he pleased, provided the Jame was not against the law I. Religion," said the immortal Bacon, " is the main stay of a well or dered commonwealth." Nothing could be of more • deep importance than that religions instruction should ':not be contaminated at its source, and that its teachers should not be mess of tainted or immoral principles. These facilities were an inducement to crafty and de signieg individuals to impose upon the ignorant and unwary. For the correctness of his statenient, he would appeal to every officiating Magistrate at the Quarter Sessions. Neither was there any attestation • ,offered as to the moral or intellectual competency of those applicants —they demanded their certificates upon their taking the oaths, &c. and these were given .by. the Justices under the idea that they had no power to refuse them. It was not to the characters of those ;nd iv i duals, as general members of society, that he :objected ; still less to their tenets, or modes of faith. • It was the self-appointment he thought dangerous, and their taking upon themselves, merely upon their own motives, to act as religious instructors, that he thought objectionable. This, he held, was admitted, under a false interpretation of the Acts of Toleration. 1 The spirit of those did not go to authorise incompetent persons to assume the sacred functions of ministers of religion. But under the Acts as now interpreted, all description of persons—cobblers, stone-masons, chim ney-sweeps, excommunicated clergymen, and such persons, .vere held as admissible. Again, he meant no reflection on the occupations of these persons, but they afforded strong presumptive evidence of their unfitness to perform the sacred functions. No man could possibly higher respect all or any of their Lordships than himself, yet there were many among • them whom he ihould not like to see commanding' armies, in the place of Lord Wellington or Gene; al; Graham, or leading . on fleets to battle in the stead of Lord Gambier, 4'ir J. Saut=rez, or Sir Edward Pellew. But the practices which he complained , of were not cons onant to the true spirit and mean- ; ing of the Acts in question ; and he felt confident, if such were stated from authcrity, their'Lordships would not hesitate to interpose, in order • to prevent the continuance of so eaormous an evil. Notwith standing such was the prevalent interpretation of the Acts, there were parts of the kingdom where different opinions were held respecting the title in tent and meaning of them ; and, he iaelieved, that such a sentiment was held by some beitoog their Lor4ships. The Noble Viscount then reamed to the provisions of the Act of William and Mary, in illustration of the position he had laid down ; and also the Act of the 19th of his Majesty. , These were held to apply to the cases of Dissenting Ministers only, not to all persons indiscriminately, who chose to take those functions upon themselves ; and there were instances of such persons being refused because they could not shew that they were teachers of con gregations ; but in the great generality of cases it was otherwise ; and they were called u p on to avert the 1 evils resulting from the uncertain state of laws of so much importance. It was incumbent on the Legis. latore to declare the real intent and meaning of those Acts, and to point out particularly the species of evi dence to be required from the applicants for licences, as to their competency. With respect to the question of the best manner of providing for this, his Lordship observed upon the practice observed in the Establish. ed Church on such occasions ; these the candidate for the sacred function was required to bring testi monials respecting his character, and an appeal was made to the parishioners as to his fitn ess for ordina tion. All candidates, at least, ought to have a pre sumptive evidence of their fitness. What he proposed was, that in all such cases this should appear : that some evidence of their moral and intellectual fitness shouldberequired ; that a certificate should be brought signed by at least six house-keepers, who had known the applicant, and knew him to be a person of a so ber life, and considered as endowed with sufficient abilities for the purpose. Those which were specially detailed in the Bill could not be doomed in the least as severely restrictive ; for that individual who could not, without difficulty, procure such testimo nials, must be altogether unworthy of what he as pired to. The Noble Viscount then adverted to the various exemptions enjoyed by Dissenting Ministers of various persuasions, and particularly of the sect called Quakers ; and proceeded to consider some of those causes which were held as contributory to the great increase, of late years, of dissenters from the Established Church. He adverted particularly to the want of a sufficient number of places of worship for the established religion, and instanced the contrast between the measures adopted in that respect, in the reign of Queen Ann, when the erection of fifty new churches was resolved upon in the then comparatively small size of the metropolis. They should recollect, that the Established Church was an integral, a vital part of the Constitution, and such a principle should govern their conduct with respect to it. He had i n . formation from quarters the most respectable in vari ous parts of the country, stating the insufficiency of places of worship, and complaining of the conse quences. Among others, he had information from a most worthy Diocesan. With resect to the present number of churches in the metropolis, if its increased size since the reign of Anne was considered, one hun dred additional churches would scarcely be sufficient. A topic so essential to the morals, the well being, the security of the people, could never be too much ap preciated by the Legislature. Reverting to the im. mediate object of the Bill, his Lordship expressed his confidence that even every well disposed and consci entious Dissenter would approve ot a measure which went to secure the purity of religious instruction, and declare the real meaning and intent of the Legisla ture in the enactment ot one of the most important of its laws. What he proposed now was, that the' Bill he had the honour to present should be read a first time, then.printed, and it would be for their Lordships LP name a day for the second reading. — He then moved, ~ That this Bill be now read a first time." On the question being put, Lord HOLLAND said, :hat even what had fallen from his Noble Friend invessed more strongly on his mind, that no neces sity existei for the desired interference. The whole seemed to go upon a ituadamental error, that it was only by the permission of Government that indivi duals were to instruct others in their religious duties. He, on the contrary, held it to be the right of every man who thinks he can instruct his fellow-creatures, so to instruct them. He was sorry thaisoinething 'Rifled from his Noble Friend, as if he held it improper diat persons of low origin, or particular trades, should attempt to teach the doctrines of Christianity. On this point he held a different opinion. For the mea sure itself, be did not think a sufficient case Was wade out, as the existence of any real practical evils or in conveniencies, to require such an interposition on the part of the Legislature. His Lordship then referred, to some calculations as to the increase of dissenting teachers of late years, which he did not seem to re gard as a misfortune, or an alarming consideration. With respect to what was said of the Established' Church, he agreed in the opinion, that a want of suf ficient number of places of religious worship was in jurious. This was a point in which the Established Religion was essentially concerned ; it should take care that no insufficiency in this respect should exist. He had no objection that the public purse 'Should, to a certain extent, contribute to the expences of the necessary erections ; but he thought the im mediate funds of the Church also should contribute. Such was the uniform custom with the Church of Rome, and the Established Church in this country should :hew itself no less mindful of its duty in so essential a point. With respect to his Noble Friend's Bill, he repeated his opinion, there was not a suf f icient ground laid for its adoption. Lord Viscount SIDMOUTH spoke in explana tion, and enforced the leading arguments in his intro 'Auctory speech ; contending, that ample grounds ex isted, and even rendered necessary the interference of the Legislature. He agreed with his Noble Friend, in lamenting the insufficiency of places of public won. 'ship for the established religion, and wished to . see is regulation, that no Bill for building a new Church should be entertained, except it contained a provision for securing a certain portion of the area for the poorer classes of the parishioners, without any charge to these whatever. Earl STANHOPE acquiesced in every thing that had fallen from his, Noble Friend (Lord Holland).- I That Noble Ltird, on whatever question he spoke, whether right or wrong, wise or unwise, always spoke from principle. But on the present occasion , he did not think that his Noble Friend or the Noble Viscount , had gone far enough. They did not, or would not, touch the real state of the question. They must know, or if they did not know, he would tell them, that in most parts of England, where the parishes did not consist of more than a thousand souls, the places of worship, exclusive of private houses, barns, &c. -. ll' were arrth4ee to four to those of the Established Church i and that if Bcotland and Ireland were to be included, the proportion between the Dissenters and the Egtablished Church would be found as two to one. The tide was running that way, and who could stop it ? It has been observed, that we had an Esta blished Church and a sectarian people ; the observa tion would soon be confirmed, if the members of tl:e Established Church - were not more active in their at tention to the duties of their calling, and to the reli gions wants of the people. The Bill was then read a first time, and ordered to be printed. After some conversation between Lords Sid mouth, Holland, and Stanhope, Lord SIDMOUTH said, that he expected the Bill would be printed and ready for delivery on Monday next ; and that on that day he should move that it be read a second time on the following Friday. VEXATIOUS ARSYSTS. The House was for some time in a Committee on this Bill ; and a conversation took place 00 its clauses between Lord ELLENBOROUGIip the Lord COANCELLOIts and Lords REPESDALE, MOIRA. HOLLAND, and STAN.. MOPS. LordELLENBOROV6I4 thought the bill would be rather injurious to the honest creditor, without affording any real relief to the debtor. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that he had observed with pleasure that in this country men rose generally from small beginnings ; and he feared that `if the present bill passed, those who new obtained credit for it 10, with the terror of an arrest hanging over their heads, would not after the passing of this bill obtain credit to that amount. The more indus trious class might therefore lose by it, and so far the `bill might be founded on a mistaken humanity. It was, however, with reluctance that he should oppose lit ; he might, however, be induced to withdraw that opposition, if the bill were made a temporary, instead of a perpetual bill. Lord REDESDALE explained the groundsupon which lie had introduced the bill, and professed his readiness to acquiesce in the suggestion of his Noble and Learned Friend, the Lord Chancellor. Lrrd ELLENBOROUGH was also ready to withdraw his objection, if the sum of £l5, instead of £2O, were made the amount of th e sum under which ' an arrest could not take place. 1 1 I This suggestion was adopted. Earl STANFIOPE, however, when the clause was read for excepting bills of exchange and promis sory notes, opposed this exception, and moved, that. the clause be left out of the bill; on which a division took place— For the original clause For the Amendment - Adjourned at nine o'clock. • • HOUSE OF COMMONS. The Loan BM was read a second time, and ordered to be cow initted tomorrow. The Innkeepers' Bill was read a third time and passed. The Report on the Bristol Port Bill was received,and the biU ordered to be read a second time to-morrow. The Report of the Committee of Supply was brought up, and the Resolutions agreed to. Mr. Secretary ;LYDICK intimated, that on Monday next he would submit a motion to the House for permitting the inter change of the English and Irish Militia. The Portugal Treaty Bill passed through a Committee, and the Report was ordered to be received to-morrow. The Irish Embezzlement Bill passed through a Committee, and the Report ordered to be received to-morrow. LONBON TKILATRB BILL. Yr. MELLISH 'mond the second reading of the London Theatre BBL Mr. WHITBREAD said he was not surprised at the motjon of the Hon. Gentleman, notwithstanding what had passed on that day six weeks ; but he was sure that when he heard the reasons upon which an application for further delay was grounded, he would have no objection to agree to its postponement to another Session of Parliament. The object with which it was postponed on that day six weeks was, that the Committee engaged in investigating its affairs might be enabled to stare to the House whether there was a probability that Drury-lane Theatre would be reconstructed. That Committee had proceeded in its inquiries, and had come to a Resolution, that all obstructions to its reconstruction were removed; nay, they had proceeded so far towards the completion of the object, that a plan had been drawn out which was likely to meet with numerous subscribers, and every thing was going forward in regular progress to its success. He hoped by the beginning of next session to be able to state positively that a new theatre would be erected by the Patentees of Drury-lane.—As to the other questions involved in this subject, he should offer no opinion. It might be for the consideration of the House at a future day, whether a third Theatre was necessary or not ; but at present he should abstain altogether from that topic, confining himself to the fact he had already stated as a reason for the post ponement of the bill to the next session. He hoped that the Hon. Gentleman himself ( Mr. Mellish) would accede to the proposition on such a ground. Mr. BROWN ,said, it was with great reluctance he felt himself bound to oppose the suggestion of the Hon. Gentleman. He agreed, that one of the ob jects of the late postponement was to ascertain whe ther there was a probability that the Theatre would be rebuilt ; but there was another question in which he could not agree with the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Whitbread) in overlooking, and that was, whether a third Theatre was necessary ? He gave full credit to the statement of the Hon. Gentleman, but, strong, as it might appear, it fell far short of that degree of certainty which the House had a tight to expect. It was true, the Committee had reported that all ob structions to the rebuilding were removed ; but they had given no assurance, that, all obstructions being removed, they would be able to go on with the -Theatre. Mr. WHITBREAD said, that on or before the Ist of October next, a statement would be given of the fact, whether Drury-lane theatre could be built or not; and if it could be built, as he had every reason to expect, it would be built immediately. Mr. W. POLE thought the statement of the Ho nourable Gentleman perf ectly satisfactory, and thought , it would be a harsh, if not an unjust proceeding, to refuse the postponement of the bill under such cir cumstances. Mr. PETER MOORE said that the Committee (of which he had the honour to be Chairman) had two points to consider ; the first was the amount and nature of the claims upon the theatre ; the 2d, the probability of its being rebuilt. He complimen- - ted the various claimants for the parts they had act. ed under the calamity, and described them as mt. ning a race to see who should make the greatest sa. crifice. The conduct of his Hon. Friend (Mr. She. ridan) was also a subject for admiration, with the same disinterestedness and liberality which had al ways distinguished Isis political life ; he too was era. ling to make a sacrifice to an extent which the Com mittee thought it necessary to check. Upon she whole, he could assure the House that the obstacles to the rebuilding were entirely removed ; and as ter the undertaking of it, he hoped they would give ate. [ ther year for the commencement of the splendid structure, which it was in contemplation to erect. He' I moved that the second reading should be postponed till that day three months. • General TA RLETON expressed a hope that the ,House would accede to the proposal of delay, if not upon the statements they had heard, a haw through respect. to the Hon. Gentleman concren. ed, and to the stoicism with which he had sustained his loss. (Hear, hear.) As to the necessity for a third theatre, he must confess, that he was not aware of it. There was now but one Theatre, at the heat of which was an accomplished scholar and able ma nager, and yet he was a.V.iged to bring quadrupeds on the stage, for the purpose of assisting his attrac tions. ( A laugh.) This was not very like an over. demand for the legitimate drama. The Houle should recollect, that the present was an age peculi. arly fruitful in speculations. This spirit pervaded all departments down to the theatre itself ; and they should be cautious how, in c. mpliance with its wi s hes, they interfered wi.h the sight of one who , would justly be considered by any age, its brightest and most dis tinguished ornament. Mr. MARRIOTT said, that the greatest inco nve. nience was experienced by the town, for the want of another theatre. If any one now sent to engage a box, he was told that he could not have it fur three weeks to come ; at the end of which time he was ad mitted to a comedy or a tragedy, just as the chance presented. If he wanted €o laugh, he was perhaps made to weep ; or if he wished to indulge in tears, it was perhaps his fate to be excited by humotir ;—the effect of it was, that instead of the Managers being competitors for public favour, the public were com petitors for the favour of the Managers. If Drury. lane Theatre was to be rebuilt (and that, it would, he loped as much as any man) it would be formed upon the same principle with that of Covent Garden, with a view rather to the profits of the Managers than to the convenience of the public ; the consequence would be, that horses would be brought on, they being a class of performers more easily paid and fed, and men and women of talent would be neglected as at present. Mr. John Kemble, he understood from the newspapers, had said at the dinner of the 0. P con• federacy, that they must have two Theatres if they would have one good Theatre. The principle was undoubtedly true ; and it was true in all cases, as well political as dramatic. If they had but one Theatre they would be presented with sound and spew, instead of sense ; and if but one Bank, they would be overrun with depreciated paper. Mr. MORRIS said; that the circumstance of itlany able performers being out of employment, was one likely to be applicable to all times and situations. In France, where Theatres were so numerous, and where taste was supposed to exist to such a deg-tee, this complaint was always made, and always made with reason. As to the introduction of pageanuy Nee the stage, that also was a gene ral practice to which Managers most resort. It was a weli known tact that the Misanthrope of Molier was held up for many I nights by the aid of a farce, or some chewy exhibi tion, which kept the audience in good humour. The 1 public taste was not to be considered degraded mere ly because it could admire talents of u different de scription, or performances of a distinct species. There was always a security in the good sense of the people for their coming back again to the legitimate drama. As to the question of expense, though the food and pay of the quadruped performers were less, the v:hoie expense of the pageant was conside rabl y greater. Bat *hen the drama was mentioned, and its excellence referred, they should recollect how much the drama was indebted to him whose interest was concerned ;a the motion. They should recollect, that if we were . now in a condition to contend with the Theatre of France, it was to him they were indebted for that dis. tinction. They should also recollect, that the names of Siddons, Kemble, and Jordan, appeared amoeg the creditors of the late Theatre of Drury lane ; and decided upon the propriety of postponing their claims to the claims of speculators. Mr. SHERIDAN said, be was grateful for the ci • vility and attention he had experienced from both sides of the House, and felt it a flatteritrg t es timony, that 'though he had been for many years a decided pan'/ man, he had so conducted himself as to leave no angry impression. His Honourable Friend on his rigbt hand (Mr.Whitbread) hid pressed for the indulgence of the House; and his Hon. Friend beh ind him (lir. P. Moore) ha d solicited its favour, under the circuit. stances of the case before them—but, with all the gra titude he felt for the personal civility of indirida.o, he must be still proud enough to say , that he ap pealed not to their indulgence , but strictly and solely to their justice. It had been said that boxes cou l 4 . not be had, and that the taste of the town was Per. " verted. The first he hoped to remedy if they svoehl give him time ; and as fur the second he could sap that if the taste of the town wase rv erted, it was no t by the Managers. He could say for a fact, that Mr. Kemble would rather act on his own two legs than ' bring the horses to perform on four. The taste of the town was dissipated by luxury, and by the disincl nation of the people in high life from taking that rule in the Theatre which they were accustomed to take, and not by any misconduct on the part of the I,l.tna. gers themselves. It had been said that there was but . on tho e se T t h wo eatr w e a ; s bexuatcidnyfaocftththeeresizwe elrvehkt veiny, and enabled every one to hear and sec, yet tar, Theatre was deserted. He recollected that when n : play of De Montford, by Miss Bailey, le out, the most admirable acting of Mr. Kea.b the most splendid decorations of scenery, were i r- '4" ficient to suppost it, and it failed, he thought, to t. was brougll disgrace of the public taste. What lie swot! upon w , t s w h o e=au andd el e c ' ; t • that if a third Theatre should be thought rccessr. be, and those for whose interests he cogended, .. 4 , t the power to erect it ; a nd he was confident no re• 'Would be taken by that House from any indiriduas without propel compensation being made. Aprio ';.~: tier the etel s If i mu the Cit • 1 ] for vs bAi %AI