Star. — London, England, 1819-12-03 00:00:00

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He had that day re oeived aietter from a most respectable Clergyman, which spoke of the most serious depredations having taken place in that quarter. Their Meetings wale • frequent and numerous, and there could be no doubt that. their object was to eacite a more extensive system of sedition, if not rebellion. The brother of a Noble Earl then absent (Earl Grey) was described to have had his recideace in the country attacked, - . and been forced to seek protection for his family id r. one of the nearest large towns. He trusted the Bills' aeould be carried through serith the utmost expesii : : - • . • duo. 'The' Meetings of the Collins were numerous' frequent, bat they MOM divided into parties, and" . appeared at different places ; they were, however, air tended with the cap of liberty, the death's head and:' I cross hones, and other inflammatory symbols. The Machinations which caused these had made too muck way.' He still hoped these people would see theit -..., • error in the end, and no longer continue such dame . gerous and destructive practices. He was lately anti' ' '. sured, that no less than 14,000 men, chiefly armed, Were in readiness for insurrection in the county be: , .• ea the Tyne and the Wear ; indeed, by cverf thing he could learn, they were in a state•iittle short I W rebellion, and he entertained strong apprehensions, that, without some strong precautionary measures, some general insurrection would take . place. Some of the districts in that quarter were, he was happy to Way, quiet and loyal, and cherished very little of Rse • dicalism or disaffection. His Lordship instanced the .Western parts of Durham, and the Northern parts of - . . the County'of York. He thanked their Lordships ' for the attention they had favoured him with; but he thought it right to acid the information which he hid ' received from neatly the same qvareer to that *which , . ' the -Noble Earl had shortly referred to (Neer, hear). • • After a short conversation, • The Bills were severally read the second time, and • • committed for to-morrow, ,with the understanding of . their being the first in the order of discussion.—. ‘ Adjourned at Eightarclock. . . . HOUSE OF COMMONS. ..- ' . A copy of the Resetaticas of the Eist India Campine,. %ha . the to the granting of certain Pensions, pursuant to the dintethri . • • of the Howe. *As ordered to lie on the table. The Report bf the Committee of Supply was brought ep bit Mr. lisomax, and its Resolutions read and agreed to. _ , • The Report of the Committee on Stamp Duties wall anosalat ..1 Wtßesolutions read, and s =ordered. . .BEN ETl' (of Wiltahite)presitited a Petition from sends , - •lolllhridnels in the City of Bridgetown praying for the neeifel t - " tom t. Upon' ettladh • or MI/ other of hi. ..., •. ; . BENNET roses* give noire, that es Thursday, derdee'i • InOtant, he would submit to the House a maims on the lina!e oil ithi'Maisafacturina Distriets of the County of Lancaster. . . A SEDITIOUS kEETIN4S. . .." 'Lord CASTLEREAGH hiving moved the•crags, q of ate daY• for the second reading of the 'Seditious.- t Sittings Bill; .. • - Mr. M. A. TAYLOR begged leave to ask a queseis tion of a Noble Lord opposite, whether it was dna* intention of his Majesty's Ministers to proposeaey al- ia . teration or amendment.in the Bill, or to allow it to 40 stand . in the state it then was?—He was proceedip it to discuss the matter, hen • ' i;ii • The SPEAKER called him to order. $ Mr. M. A. TAYLOR resumed, and observed, that.T it was not his intention to debate on the subject be-,a) tire the House, but merely to ask a simplikquestionsam Lord CASTLEREAGH Was sure that the Honour- 4, able Member had too much experience, not to knoiv, !": that the Committee was the place for discussing details.; , _ Mr. GRENFELL rose, and was ahout to. state hi* opinion on the Bill, when . Lord CASTLEREAGH put it to the Honourable ~, Gentleman, whether it would not be more COTIIFO, ,-; nient to give his sentiments on the question for 041 ri second reading ? 1 - Mr. GRENFELL acquiescing, she order of the dap . I was react. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL then got up to move.- the second reading of the Bill, when Mr. TlERNEYDbserved, that if the Ncble Lord (Castlereagh) did not intend to commence the debate,. it was open to his Honourable friend to speak. As soon as the Right Honourable Gentleman tat dawn, there were loud calls for Mr. Greafell, when The SPEAKER. observed, that if he was called c" . fog his opinion, he . conld have no hesitation in sayings, - • that if any Honourable Member, having been, me i it , 'vented, from addressing the House in one gage of tbelitrej debate, 'wished to be heard at another, it was, athap.,, doubtedly the courtesy to alio'', him a preference. . The calls having been repeated, Mr. GRENFELL rose, And said he would-occupy ... . but a short time, the attention of the House. The SPEAKER said he felt it was-his ditty to sage. gest that there was then no questiou before the House.. Mr. PERCIVAL then roses and was about to make soine. remarks on the important nature ofalie Bill, whey ' Mr. GItENFELL _said, he would detain the • Mims; only for a few minutes, .in easnloying that paitunity to acquaint them with the opinions he. 'entertained, and the conduct he inteeded to pure : sus in consequence of his opinions, on the great sake ject.which. at present : occupied almost the eaclusivo lineation of the House. He would briefly - state s that 'he had abstained, on a former occasion; trout giving ' -ither - a the' FRIDAY, DECEMBER 3, 1819. Just published, gage, he trusted care would be taken to render them p i l ts vIItIORUNI CLASSICS. effectual. and X. of the DELP H IN and Lord ERSKINE spoke in explanation. Referring oit u m CLASSICS; sot:wrung Vasa, principally to what had taken place respecting the Cosa, wkh an Engtavilg, by Cower. Price to Subscribers is al ' . each Part. Large indictments for High Treason in 1794, his Lordship le, Th e prices will be hereafter raised. Fifteen; observed , that on that occasion a vast body of infor ,sov-a, from the 6th of February, to persons now mation was laid before Parliament, which, in its opi ittaibe at the original price. Subscribers always Minn, no doubt, justified the steps which were then he rice at winch they originally enter ; and may taken, but which the result of the judicial inveAiga wa for large Taper by paying double that price. b e r ect ived by MT. A. J. Valpy, the Editor and tior,s proved not to have been well feunded. Though_ ok'ocourt, chancery-lane, London. PROSPECTUS. Grand Juries found Bills, the parties accused were all acquitted. When he looked at these Bills in the Tat will be used, and not the Delphln. The Dot, aggregate, and felt how little like England, Eng the Om" and the Von us Beading; will be plazed at: bifida which, the Notes in the best Vasa:Rust land would be, if these Ig,ls were passed, he could be printed at the endl each Author. not but feel both disgust and alarm—(Hear, hear). s will be adopted, and carefully collated with Th e LORD CHANCELLOR observed, that it n ame,. the present numerous faults it the references. was on his own views of the circumstances of the ce will be to the Book and Chapter, and not to the ich means the same Index will apply to all other cases which bad come before him, he had deemed it iha Li ercril ,11Taitta front the &pont Editions, coo- his duty to prefer those indictments. With respect present time, will be added to each Author.—Thus to the present measures, he differed materially from r perated, as it were, the Dtt.runr, Bitorr, and the • • s ni Noble and Learned Friend, who, however, had Ferrsnss. vrited.headt will be given of such Authors as can be argued much more against the enactments , than the nn alchemic sources.—The Mars will be bcauti- principle concerning them. He was fully aware of ed, "d eerie" illestretiee W's"-Ce'll . Will he in- the constitutional right of the subject to have arms for his own defence, but not for. any purpose dan gerous to the public peace. He well remembered what had passed in the House of Commons, when that great man, whose talents and whose political productions had rendered him immoral (Mr. Burke), produced a dagger, and which was kept as a memo rial of that great character's conduct—a weapon which was to be used, not in self-defence, but for purposes destructive to the State ; so was it with the weapons contemplated by the Bill before their Lord ships. The principle to which he referred respecting late constitutional right to arms, was incontrovertible. ; With respect to Meetings for the purpose, by means of physical force, of effecting an alteration in the I..aws or Constitution of these realms, it was so far a treasonable overt act. Of this, constitutionally speaking, he thought there could be no doubt.-- With respect to the provisions of the Bill, he could have no wish to render them more rigorous than the necessity of the case requited, but he 'trusted that whatever alterations may be proposed in the Com mittee, their efficacy would be preserved. Lord BEDESDALE. in support of what had fallen from the Noble Lord on the Woolsack, ob served, that the facts which had been stated in the Reports of the Committees of the year 1794, were sub.equently credited by the Juries to whom they were submitted. Lord HOLLAND was of opinion; that the truest decision on such cases was that of a Court of Justice and, in those alluded to, no verd i c ts were obtained inst the accused. The policy of the p resent s y stem ifmeasures he deprecated, and thought the present tituation of the country was chiefly attributable to the ‘iisconduct of Ministers. It was clear, that where There was much discontent among the People, they were either very bad, or they had a bad administra tion of Government. The Noble Viscount seemed to think the Bills would best be considered together, and as a part of the system of policy necessary to be adopted ; but in no view which he could take of the subject, could he afford an unqualified assent to these Bills, nor could he yet think their principle could be safely sanctioned, without farther evidence of their necessity. With respect to the Training Bill, there was an obvious inconsistency.. The punishment of transportation was provided for the person who drilled, and yet for the person who was taught, who might be the more guilty, there was but three years imprisonment. With respect to what fell from a Noble Lord opposite, on the point of anonymous in formation, the fact may be worthy of attention, that there were several Orange Lodges in that part of the country, and whose existence and practices were thought to excite great discontent. With respect to the second Bill, that for the Seizure of Arms, he deemed it objectionable in many points of view ; it was, doubtless, inconsistent with the principle laid down by the Bill of Rights, from which. a proved necessity alone could induce him to•depart. He was opposed to the maxim that there should be one law for the rich and another for the poor, as was the ef fect of some of the arguments : but if the necessity for disarming were proved, it should be done with all possible tenderness. In the Committee the mea sure may be made less objectionable. He regretted the absence of a Noble Friend from indisposition, who thought with him, that the whole of this system of policy was founded in gross error. One of conci liation, or a retracing of steps , wou ld be more likely to be effectual than calling upon Parliament to put down, in this way, the existing discontents. The LORD CHANCELLOR again quitted the Woolsack. He explained his difference from the Noble Lord, in point of his construction of the true effect of the Bill of Rights. The subject was allowed arms for his own defence and individual protection, but not for purposerhostile to the safety of the State or destruction of the Constitution ; and on this prin ciple he had acted—a line of conduct he was pre pared to defend, and willing to abide by. The Marquis of BUCKINGHAM contended that dere was an important difference in the proposed 1111111111111 M of disarming a part of the People, which was es be considered with a reference to ihe object. When doe persons were obvioutly armed for the purpose ef Ov erthrowing the Constitution, thee could be no *infringement Of the Bills is so doing : and it became, from that moment, the duty of Parliament to disarm them. On that principle the whole discussion. of those questions proceeded. The facts alleged were of public notoriety , and formed ample grfends beingofd imposed upon Parliament, They hatview o apply a rase -away to an existing evil, and in this he w against any impolitic compromising of the Coattitu nom As to the objects of those who contended for Annual Parliaments and Universal Belfroge, their with respect to the Coastitotieer Wee too to be mistakes or 644. r will beprioted uniformly In Ocro, and 'will make )130 t arts. Each . art will win CI pages ; and is will be printed in the year. Each Fart to be paid try. As only a certain number of Copies will be Work corvot be bad in separate Parts, or Authors. :t Subscription 945, Large and Small. Tides will be dad of each Author, which can then be bound In as les as each Subscriber may desire. • Jur publi,hed, !I. OP STEPII'.NS' GREEK THESAURUS. es belonging to deceased Subscribers may be had at ill, aid CL 12s. 6d. Large Paper. The Price will rd to ,El. Ts. Small, and Cst. 15s. Large. Subscribers at the price at which they originally enter. Total Large and Small, 1083. The copies printed are iced to the somber-of Subscribers. 'LIAMEATARV PROCBEDINGS. (OUSE OF LORDS, DECEMBER 2. oN, from the East India House, presented a cepy of ions pawed by tne Conn of Directors, since the last :he subject of Grants, Annuities, and Pensions. ( "A RNA RVOS presented ..ome Petitions from rti t•f the County of Semi ret, respecill the system Public-houses and other subjects, which, gut a r .2s, Lord ROLL," were ordered to lie on the table. glib of LANSDOWN moved for an Account of t laurmations and Indictments in eases of libel, 'ioteedings thereon, which hate occurredwhbin the . rise to a short conversation on the subjett,in which AND :nd the b. tic of lay:grow. and itomisys partis st:qui.i.ce to the first-mentioned Peer's proposing MOtitlit, by eniargqg ire operation r inin, inclusive. The result was, that IT= lot psrsicted in, and an order made pursuant to tln Lion, respecting which, of It OSSLYN suggested the propriety of ha lie Scotland ; which was agreed to. NO, AND SEIZURE OF ARMS BILLS. tder of the Day being read, int SIDMOUTH rose and observed, that on rat occasion, and after what he had stated iner evening on the subject, he did not feel ary to occupy their Lordships' time, by en ao any detailed statement of the nature and as of those Bills. There was, he observed, and in the Act passed in the 52d year of his when some parts of the North were in a agitation, provisions nearly similar to those i neasure now proposed; and in some respectt :t even went farther : this particularly refer- Bi'.l authorising the seizure of arms. He ?cave to state, that whilst he considered the at.nn conveyed by the papers already before mert as forming ample grounds for these mea he was induced still more earnestly to press pcedy consideration, in consequence of most ;ant information. which had been received ti.e last three days, and of which he would ay, that it shewed that training was carried on :0 ., t alarming and increased extent in various !.rs, and along with the procuration of arms, was as actually convinced him that the speedy ion of these measures was more than ever in ..siblc to public safety and private security. He d therefore now move that the Bills be read the d time. td ERSKINE said, that the 52d of the King 'Tamed for the protection of machinery ; a thing, trtght, ind is pensibl y necessary. Still he thought, Sent Acts, if less severe, would better answer the loses for which they are intended. He could there with that persons found guilty of the offences iied in these Acts, should be deemed guilty of ientanour instead of felony. Many of the per iled to such scenes as described in these Acts, tgo there out of curiosity, and not from any nil intention. He, therefore, wished that some oition should be given, by constables, or others, !"kr , them of their danger. Adverting particu -610 the Bill for authorizing the seizure of arms, it:that some of its provisions required srave and iis consideration, as going to affect an important inintional right of the subject, and which be kled would receive some modifications in . a fu lardt LILFORD thought, the greatest part of fell from the Noble and Learned Lord was 1 4t more proper for discussion in the Committee, l a in the present stage of the Bill. He contended 31 the evid ence b e f ore t h e i r Lordships shewed the zeitity of even stronger said than those pro - Much had been saia against the practice of I t g anonymous information, but of the necessity, was, of such a mode of procedure he felt con ed. lie w:is particularly aware of this, with re m a certain case in the depositions laid before of the blauchester Nla3istrates, and where he '" 11 a knowledge of the party as induced him Pict implicit confidence in the statement ; nay, ""htlent, that if any Noble Lord opposite -4 "Pally aware of the circumstances, he would crane to the same conclusion. Of the necessity I"i' o sed measures, be bad no doubt, and 'ant alterations slight by Blade in a ram" The Duke of SUSSEX thought it appeared to be imagined that those who questioned the conduct of Ministers on the present occasion were inclined to support the system of what were called Radical Re formers. Nothing could, however, be further from the truth. Adverting to the points more immedi ately before the House, his Royal Highness said; he was inclined in a great measure to acquiesce in the Bills proposed ; but he again deprecated the idea that those who may rather think otherwise were ini mical to the interests of the State. For the character and conduct of the Noble Lord on the Woolsack,, he had the highest opinion ; and, were his Lordship ' now in the situation of Attorney-General, he felt satisfied that many of the difficulties which the coun try now suffered would nut exist. The situation of things at present was one that called for inquiry, which would best point out the proprr remedies be xrflied ; and with respect to the Bills in question, the objectionable parts could be best discussed and obviated in a Committee. Lord DARNLEY entertained no objection to the Training Bill ; but as to entering houses for the pur pose of searching for arms, some difficulties, perhaps, might arise. Previous to the 16th of August, there was a very dangerous spirit among several indivi duals in the manufacturing districts, and itinerant demagogues were going about the country to those places where distress most prevailed, and where peop.e were likely to he deluded on account of their distress. ".After that day, his Ma j esty's - Minkers instituted an inquiry, and advised the Prince Regent to thank the Magistrates, and to return his answer to a Petition presented by the Corpor ation of London. He would not enter into a detai l the transactions of that day, but the events of it were most disastrous. Men, women, and children, were crushed and trampled upon, and many received sabre wounds. When Par ,figment met, the Public supposed that an'inquiry wools* be instituted, but an application of his Noble Friends to that effect was objected to. They should satisfy the People that they were' prepared to do their duty to them, and that might Rut down any improper proceedings. • Their obedience to the laws must de pend on the attention which • the House paid to the interests and liberties of the People. It bad been said. that the conciliation offered eras Parliamentary ; Reform. He believed such a measure of conciliation had never been proposed or thought of. He must, however; say, that be would _rather live under the government of the Noble Secretary of State than of 1 31 r. Hunt and Dr. Watson—(A lough). I 'The Earl of DARLINGTON 'in.a first speech) requested their Lordships indulgence, While he trou bled their Lordships with a few observations, which laci.an important reference to the discussion - of that miming. - He was one who possessid some stake in the country, had long been a Member of their Lord `ships House; and, since the year 1792, held an im portant appointment under the Crown (Lord Lieute nant of the County of Durham). He had much op immunity of knowing those parrs of the country, and be had taken some pains to acquire correct informa• tion as to the real state of things in those! quarters: In many parts, doubtless, perfect quiet prevailed ; but it appeared to be more of the nature of sullen silence, than of real quietness. He adverted to a 1 recent extensive Meeting in the neighbourhood of Newcastle; but it was one which took place under unfortunate circumstances, arising out of the diffe rences between the colliers in that quarter and the keelmen ; it was also of such a nature, that though they separated quietly, it had - attracted the notice of all who wished well to the established Government. Property was seriously menaced, in some instances attacked, and apprehensions were entertained of a rising taking place. This raay occur within a few days; and it was certainly tine, that while they (the Lords) were deliberatingthere, there wain* doubt but many seditious deliberations were taking place, parti cularly in the northern parts of the county of Durham. Quantities of offensive weapons were collected, and there was no doubt but those who collected them eidler aimed at the destruction of the Constitutiou of the Country, ,or endeavoured to excite such tumults as would endanger all, property in the coontry— (Hear, hear). On some points, connected with those questions, he must disagree• with many of his Noble Friends. Mention was made that nighttif the effect of anonymous information . ; but he, for one, had re cently received information, and from I quarter which he would not upon any account disclose. In such cases as that before them, Noble,Lords would individually judge for them Selves. He had the greatest deface= for the opinions of his Noble -Friends, whom he generally, supported; but on this Occasion he would be guided by his own. With re apect to the Bills in question, on some parts he may bans some hesitation—those may require some alter ation, so as to improve the general tenoui. Bat he was free to say, such measures were absolutely ne :gasser/ ; and he ated, that he had received infor mation, which I t him in no doubt, and had hr im pressed upon s mind the necessity of Ministers .bringing forward some measures that may be called strong. He was desirous, in such an emergency, of seeing an union of talent in both Houses, to chat the country could have the advantage of their opinions in defence of the country; but a union of this kind was rather to be wished than hoped for. As to the Causes which led to the present dangerous crisis, he thought they fin med a distinct question. To talk tipon the question of Reform, as connected • contemplated by such persons, would ' Waste of words, though some degree . Reform would, perhaps, be advantageons mcg( Hear, hear, hear). Earl f STRATHMORE stated, was possessed of some important information ' the part of the COlnti alluded to by f who bad just spoken. 'His Lordship verted to the nature and extent of whisk bad recently taken Omni 1 *en. Ould. s it wit/. Mb , WM" of netted with, or his vote either on the question for an amendment, or Duld bt a mere an the motion of the Noble Lard (cestleseash) of " 'ee or sPecies of Tuesday, purely from rpotiVes of a personal nature.. kgeodb Ir never He hoped he had apt 'been guilty Of .a dereliction et his duty in sp. doing. In the present instance s too! tied; that he also ever, when the nia.ser came betoie him in l e t publie information from point of view, he corusi not allow his priir y the Noble Earl to interfere t sad be rase now for theism ispetiqa R Principally ad- in the face of the House,. that frou. many' Meetings he hall derived from, the..papere t et raelPtAlitergila Of theft ifilThr he should feel itinctiasturnt. hinkCyr atio ,... re musk" . alid tie the sisesures aistoeacedby thi • t~~ k 1 `./ i