Star. — London, England, 1819-06-26 00:00:00

~ I 4 v . had ' the would _ last opportunity ns._ tat id again' to - elpress his total dissent froth • 1 e asure of taxa. elm' , which was now before the'llftiose. Ministers, inevethe distressed and impos state of the country, whatever they Might-letiehnd to the co* trary. It was rumoured, he believed more than rn: moored, that they were in possession of information, relative to wild and crude seheniet of redress, not emanating from the people, but devised by Insidious instigators ! How could such incendiaries hope to find victims to their arts, if the people were not goaded almost to despair by the miseries which were inflicted on them? « The last feather," it was said, “ was that which broke the horse's back!" Perhaps the bur dens now about to be imposed could not be borne by the people. It would be well, therefore, for Mi ethics's to considet, whether, for the sake of a specu lative financial benefit, they would determine to put.- sue a system which would probably be accompanied by military execution and sanguinary punishments ; which would perhaps occasion the blood of their fel low-citizens to be shed, and must cause grist And eerionsiescroachmetus on the Constitution, if it did not end in its tots t destruction! Mr. C. LONG said, the statement of the Noble (Ebringten), with respect to the expense incurred in the collection of the revenue, was not correct. The account to which he had referred was very incorrectly made out. Erroneous comparisons had been made with former years, which could not stand the test of examination. When the regular acccounts were brought before the House, they would prove that a very considerable saving had, in fact, been made in the collection of the revenue generally. Lord EBRINGTON said that ninety-three new ap pointments had been made, at an expense of 12,0001. a-year.—The House then divided—when there ap peared—For the original motion 134:-Agaiust it 65. —titajority•69. The Bill was then read the third time and passed. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER pro posed a clause to be added to the Bill, by way of rider, which provided that any brewer who should' cOnoeal or carry away any wort or wash, for the pur pbse of avoiding the enactments of this Bill, should be subjected to a penalty of £5 00.—Agreed to. Mr. CALVERT said, he rose to propose a clause to exempt certain persons from the operation of this Bill, who were very peculiarly circumstanced. He alluded to individuals who had heeped malt on their floors, during the very hot weathef, which had, in consequence, becbme putrid, and was, consequently,, very much deteriorated in value. He had a speci- ' men of it in his pocket—(A lastri)_which would enable Gentlemen to convince themselves of the truth j of what be asserted.—(Hire the Honourable Member! pulled out a small specimen bag, which occasioned con siderable laughter.)—Doubtless this was very ludi crous to those who were not concerned—but the per: sous'whose malt had grown putrid, and who found it an unsaleable article, had no great reason to join in the merriment. The , specimen he had produced was part of ,250 quarters of malt,' which had been offered to him at 355. per quarter under the price of good malt. This malt would be subject to the high duty now about to be laid on the stock in hand, un less some exemption was made in favour of those whoa possessed it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ob jected to a general regulation, but thought that in cases of particular hardships, in which fair grounds Could be made for an application for relief, it might be extended, either by a mitigation or a remission of ] the duty. Mr. C. CALVERT, after receiving such an as surance, should not press his clause. He then pro posed another in favour of strong beer exported to India, and which was brewed from more than two bushels of malt to the barrel. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex pressed a doubt whether beer, produced from less than two bushels of malt per barrel, could be inten ded for exportation to the East Indies. Such beer would not have body sufficient to keep during so long a voyage : it would be little else than small beer—(A laugh). Mr. CALVERT said, Gentlemen seemed to laugh at his expense, but he would turn it against the Right Hon... Gentleman, and prove that he was a better brewer than the Chancellor of the Exchequer—(A laugh). It „was not the malt that preserved the beer; on the contrary, it was the oleaginous and saccharine qualities of the malt that decayed it. The bitter spirit of the hop, and that alone, preserved the beir. The preservation of the liquor by no means depended on the quantity of malt used in its formation.. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER( the argument of the Honourable Gentleman went to, this, that small beer was stronger than strong beer (Much laughter). Mr. CALVERT said, small beer would keep quits' as-long as strong beer. It depended on the propor—j tion of hops used, with reference to the quantity or malt, and net on the quantity of malt •alone.—The clause was then nertived without a division. • Mr. CALVERI then. moved, " Tbat in the clause bsuposing a duty on the stock in hand, the sum of 6d. be Insetted instead of Is. 2d. per bushel." On this Amendment the House divided. The num bers were—For the original clause, 134—For the Amendment, 444. Majority, 90.. SAME 4A1113 PAYNSNTS SILL. Mr. PEEL Gilled the attention of the House to an made : '-nk Cash Payments pill House. - Bill went to the moved by an Ho which was to give option of paying of the realm. the Lords, not effect of the House was this, in ,ption of paying in 182], it allowed 1, thus obliging been originally of May, 1821, 7 2. been treated in the Lords proved that his princi ple was correct, and though he could wish that the alteration had not been made, lie would rather than the Amendment should be agreed to, than that the clause should be lost altogether. Of the Bill gene rally he would say, that be could wish that a mea sure of such importance to the country had been made more simple and intelligible ; and had it been without those parts which in his estimation were quackeries, it would have given him a stronger as surance that the plan intended to be adopted would ultimately be carried into effect. Mr. MANNING regretted that the former Bill had been lead a third time when he was not in the House. The Bank he described to have always mi nutely attended to those regulations which it was en joined by the House to observe. There had been the attnost care on their part to avoid any exceeding of the authority given them by Parliament. The mode in which applications were in future to be made to the Bank for advances to the Government was not ,new. He could state it to have been usual for thirty years, and he had traced it back to the year 16.9. It had been repeatedly said of the Bank, that they bad travelled out of their way when they - took upon themselves to act on their views of the public into , rest. He would shew that they had been repeatedly called to do so, as it had been their duty. In sup port of this assertion he read a letter addressed to the Bank in 1701, and lest this call upon them tts look to the interest of the public service should be y thought too ancient to be to the point, he would re• 'fer to an application of more modern date. In 1806 lor 1807, when Lord Grenville and Lord Henry Petty were at the head of the Administration of the Country, a letter bad been addressed to the Bank by the Noble Baron, in which he urged " that it would 'be a most material accommodation to . the public ser-. vice, if the Court of Directors would advance the sum of I.:2,000,000 on Exchequer Bills, owing to an accidental delay that had occurred in the passing the Land Tax and Malt Duty Bills." The only difference to be made in favour of the applications to the Bank 'by the new Bill was this, that they were to be made in writing, which provision he thought unnecessary,, and that it would become the duty of a particular officer to lay before the House the amount of Advances required. lie had no objection to the Amendment made it , the Lords. Mr. I'EEL was happy to have introduced a Bill to which so few objections had been urged. On the Amendment of the Honourable Member being pro posed, he had immediately acquiesced in it, as he considered it aa% improvement of the measure. He thought the Amendment better as it originally stood, but, modified as it now was, he thought it better that it should be agreed to, than that such a provi sion should not be retained in the Bill at all. He was Sorry that the other Bill had passed when the Ho now-able Gentleman who spoke last was' not in the House. The third reading was not moved particu larly early, and it had been brought on at the time it was read, in order to accommodate some Gentle men who generally-took an active part in Bank af fairs. The clause which made it necessary that all applications from the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the Bank should be made in writing, he thought a good one, and it was the more necessary, ai a sub sequent clause brought the required advances under the cognizance of Parliament. It was necessary that Returns of the Exchequer Bills bought by the Bank, with accounts of the other advances, should be made. Without such a provision, where an advance of £35,000,000 was obtained, as in 1815, it might s. happen that the House would not receive au account of more than nine or ten millions. After a few further observations from Mr. J. P. GRANT, Mr. PEA RSE, and Mr. HU4R133014, the Lords' Amendment was agreed to. 250 boys could be educated by six or seven Profes 'sors at Woolwich, thirty-seven Professors, a Gover nor, and Lieutenant-Govenior, could not be neces sary to educate SOO boys at Sandhurst? It was im possib le to conceal the fact, that here was a most couldextrav extravagan t nbtewbaesttteeroef educated ted public at tb t m h e e r o e a M f e i e lita b Th r e y t e C i. o p e l u t l ig e p r i i : were er E th s o ta se bl a is t , tbe level of the natter. Ile then objected to the ex tt the than rnt Establishment ought to be brought down to rpenses thrown on the country by the Colonies, and wished to know how it happened that a charge of be- Meiji two and three hundred thousand 'pounds ap peafed on account of troops employed in the East 'lndies? as troops employed there, he had ender- Stood, were to be paid by the Company. in the Army Extraordinaries too, he found large sums had been received by Mr. Penn, as Agent for the Mauritius; Sir H. Bunbury, as Agent for Malta; Mr. T. P. .urtney, as Agent for the Cape of Good Hope; and by Mr. Huskisson, as Agent for Ceylon (Hear:). He did not see why the duties performed by thew) Gentlemen might not as well be performed by those Officers of the Treasury who paid the sums received by therh on account of the Colonies. He hoped the Estimates would be simplified, and that the expenses of the Colonies would he brought as much as pos sible into one view, and then it would, be seen by the House how far these exigencies were necessary. He at present knew little of the sums they received, or of the time they retained in their hands the monies paid to them on account of the Colonies; and it was a delusion to hold out that these Estimates gave that information which the House ought to receive. He strongly enforced the necessity of making the Gover nors of the Colonies understand that the expenses in li - curred in the possessions ever which they presided must be paid out of the Colonial revenues. These instructions ought to be strictly acted on which were contained in the warrant framed by the Tieasury in 1763, and which had afterwards been sent out to Governors of our Colonies in 1791. Instructions more proper to be sent out, he ,was of opinion, could not be framed. In the war, it might be difficult to act on these; but the time was now arrived when they ought to be enforced. In the last Army Esti mates which were before the House, there was a charge for,the clothing of the cavalry of only 20691. lie was surprised in these to find an additional cbarge of 39,961. He wished for some esplanation on this head. The present Estimates were much too gene rally framed. There were several items of cxrense which he regarded as irregular, from their not being classed under specific heads. If these Estimates'were good for any thing, they ought to shew under each head the charge created, the persons responsible for such charges, and, where credit was necessary, the amount to which it had been taken. Where this was not done, the Estimates appeared a pet feet delusion, and framed in such a way that Ministers were left to dis pose of the sums voted just as they pleased. Mr. HUSK ISSON thought a considerable portion of the observations which the Honourable Gentlemae had made, arose from his not taking a very accurate view of the Returns before the House. Sometimes he had viewed them as Estimates, and sometimes as Accounts. These, however, were not the filial Ac counts, nor were they in that state in which they must pass the Auditors of Public Accounts, and the Comptroller of the Army. The present Accounts contained the sums drawn for by the Commissaries abroad, who were the only persons on foreign sta tions that were allowed to draw Bills on the Govern ment. Their Accounts when they came home were to be examined by the Auditors before they were passed. This statenaent would explain the general manner in which the sums were put down in the Ac counts now before the House. If the Honourable Gentleman wished to see the application of the sums thus called for in the details in the present year, or in any year that had gone by, there would not be the least objection, on the part of Ministers, to give the information required, and to produce the Ac counts as they were passed by the Auditors. The Right lion. Gentleman then proceeded to explain the mode in whtCh the Agents for Colonies drew for sums on the Treasury on the account of those Colonies. The Colo nial Accounts a, well as others had to pass a Board of , Auditors, and were examined with the same strictness. As to the money left in the Agents' hands, they might at times have small sums in their care, but never any thing considerable, To refute the slanderous charges put forth elsewhere, he would state what the fact was Doing this," said he, " I know the difficuhrof proving a negative, and of speaking of one's self; but it has never happened to me to derive the smallest advantage by balance or commission, or by any other means (except by the salary), from the situation in which I stand as Agent for Ceylon. Stating this io the Hous of Commons, is, I think, the best way of contradicting the reports which have gone abroad; and if any man can gain-say what I have advanced, on me fall the infamy of wilful and deliberate false hood.!'—(Hear, hear.)—With respect to the mode of checking expenses in the Foreign Colonies, he agreed with the Honourable Gentleman there never was a warrant more properly framed than that drawn up in 1763—and which was again adopted, as the Ho.. nourable Gentleman had said, in 1791. The Hoe. Gentlemae, however, would have done Ministers no more than justice, had he stated this to have been sent out immediately after the last peace. He believed the admonition had since been repeated, and every Governor was told at his peril to incur expense with out the previous approbation of the Treasury. The et n t heboa h eeof fagi e dthce f vcaea o oetv rm n.uaanlnr e tyys r charge in the Extraordinaries for clothing the Cavalry er o vibeforeohmwa c h a rge , aug mentedthend a c c outr e ments . t, wappoon A l expense he t htL wa oi im ac cu cn foues ,Rse t T okat were clothing fg t i C rcthfNe cavalry,to ta u r e d l fi i lna :Pelnrrepeated,accounts,t t e fo s no Per t befo Uen re t. alap pealed is the Estimates, because it had not been would icadcdo lot lurikion a....~~...~. if r. . • i . • a i I 1 l • t I _ Mr. PEEL called the attention of t 1 Amendment made to the Bank Cash 1 I I in the oth4 House. Before the Bil Lords, an Amendment had been mov , nourable Meniher, the object of whicl the Bank from May, 1821, the opti ,' their notes in geld bars, or in the can 1 ' This Arneadmelst had been altered in t in principle.. b as to time. The Amendment ma 'a the Upper House 1 . • , stead of giros Bank the option 1, ' geld bars or in coin. from May, 181 . i &ens that option from May 1. 1822, . . the Bank to pay in bullion, as had be r ! • I proposed, for one year, from the Ist o, 1+ ! ei• laitt l / 4 • ••• • - . %. , , Sic s , -..5. , ...- . • , • - - --. • . . 5... 1 ' . -.- .. ; • 111011111 " . " . • to the Ist of May, 1822. He move 4 that the Leeds' r. HUME was sorry that overgrown Estiblish ritent'alonfthe Excise), burdened the country with Amendment should be agreed to, men; the Military College, was not to be reduced. an additional' sum of £lOO,OOO, and upwards. An Mr. ELLIS did not mean to object to the Amend- ,What must the Public think when they saw that Hon. Friend of his had given notice of a motion on ment made by the Lords, but at the same time be Establishment now, in time. of peace, kept up to the subject of the collection of the Excise, and he thou ht the course he had 'formerly recommended what it was at a time when we had four or five hun- trusted that the House would not separate until they would have been 'preferable. He thought it would died thousand men in the field ? At the Military Col- had gotreome mere specific' pledge: of .economy than have gi'ven the Bank an opportunity of gradually lege there were thirty-seven PrOfessors to educate 300 the vex et petcrea legit of l!dinisters. taking up their one and two-pound Bank Notes, boys, while at the'Establishment at Woolwich, which Sir R. WILSON said, he would take even this, the which was necessary before the general Resumption had never cost the country more than £9OOO, from last opportunity he supposed thakyould occur, again of Cash Payments. The manner in which the clause 250 to 300 boys had been educated by six or seven tat ••:nreas his total dissent froni'leasure of taxa- had been treated in the Lords proved that his princi- Professors. Was it then too much for him to say, if - - • ~. r__ ARMY EXTRAORDINARIES. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that the House should go into a Committee of Supply, to which Committee accounts of the Army Extraordinaries, of the Barracks, and of the Commis iariat for Ireland, were ordered to be referred. The house having resolved itself into the Committee, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that the sun of £1,200000 should be granted to defray the expanses of the Extraordinaries of the Army for Great Britain. Colonel DAVIES objected to many of the charges thrown on the public by the unnecessary Establish ments, and useless Officers, that were retained. He had understood some reduction of- the Military Col lege Establishment was to take-place, andcomplained of abuses that were suffered to exist. These, had come to his knowledge a hundred fold since the' inquiry into the Military Establishments of the coun try, and he therefore thought no apology necessary for giving notice, that early in the next Session of Parhament, he should move for the appointment of a Select Committee to take into consideration the whole Military Expenditure of the Country. Lord PALMERSTON had stated that some re ductions would take place in the course of the year, which were now about to be carried into effect. He had, however, been misunderstood, if he had been supposed to say any reduction of the Military College Establishment was intended. That Estal,lishment he didasot think was greater than the fair demands of the service required. He did not consider those OtE ces to be useless which were held to be so by the Honourable Gentleman. His general assertion' on the subject of abuses said to exist, he would meet with a general denial, and he would challenge the Honourable Member to ptove his assertion well foun ded, which he would distinctly state he did not think he would be able to do. He thought it would have been more fur and candid in the Honourable Gen tleman to state what these abuses were, than to throw out so general an assertion. Colonel DAVIES hoped, after what the Noble Lord had now said, that next year, when he moved for the appointment of a Com mittte, the motion would not be opposed by him (Lord Palmerston). Weo, ~~ called for as smatter of course, but had been on proof that it was necessary. Wi t h respec Mel t to the Military College, he would remark, that insteod cj 36 professors, asere were only SO; and at Woolwid; instead of only six or seven, there were 19. The num. her of pupils was at the last mentioned place 123 ; trnd 19 professors to 120 pupils, at Woolwich, v at more in proportion than 90to 300 pupils at Sandlitirt. Mr. HUME remarked, his question on the subj'ect of the charge for troops in India was unanswered. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ‘sid, the expense was to be borne by the East India Co m , pany, between whom and the Government th ere a r anning account. Mr. HUME had before called the attention of Chancellor of the Exchequer to this subject. I thought some provision ought to have been mad e the present year for the debt due to the East l a , Company. Mr. LONG defended the Estimates before c, House, which be contended had been improved late years. The Hon. Gentleman, he thought, I reason to be satisfied With the explanations given. Mr. C. HUTCHINSON noticed the charge ford: Commissariat and Auditing Establishment at Lily and wished to know if it had answered the purp , for which it was formed ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHSQUER said, the expense of that establishment was cettaiuly siderable, but it had been found one of great putia utility.—The motion was then agreed to. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ,• moved the following grants: For the Army Fatrwirdinaries for Ireland - To make up the sum of £4,0C0,000, to be applied in concert with *the King of the Nei herlands under the treaty of 1814, to meet the charge of erectilg For. tresses in the Low Countries . . Alt. HUME understood thiccharke was to be by the French Government. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER no part of the ex pense had or would fallen thiscountr though for a time it had to advance the marry. Mr. C. HUTCHINSON wished is know if d money thus to be expended would not Otherwise n. been paid into the English Treasury ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sa's, the engagements under which this advance wa, to made were entered into before the battle of lf% aterlA The gloricus and lot tunate events of 1815 had ens& us to throw on the Government of France that u. pease which would otherwise have fallen on t'.s country.— The motion was then carried; The following grants were then moved and agreed:c To enable his Majesty to pay a Caesura to the Go. veniors of Queen Anne s Bounty, for the itagmay. tation of the Stipends of the Poor Clergy - To. eeable his Majesty to pay a like sum, in adflition to tile main in Scotland provided for the Poor Clergy a To defray the Interest for throe years on the sum of £300,000 doe to the Portuguese Government To make good the deficiency in the Fee Ford, Arril . 801, 1819 For sundry improvements from Ringo Ferry to Chthreh Bridge, in North 3Vales To improvementsto be atone to Holyhead Harbor in the year 1819 For repairs to the Harbour of Lyme - Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the vote, an.. tended that the work in question was a completl The Harbour of Lyme could never lave water On large ships, while the Road of Portland, liras safe for any ship and any wind, was in the Mediate neighbourhood. An tmreasonahle pref was entertained against the Portland Roadsteac Sir J. YORKE said, there was no man wl, ever sailed up or down Channel that could not testimony to the excellence of Portland Roads. the Lyme Harbour was an excellent, and wol a most useful shelter to all the coasting trade. Mr. WILLIAMS observed, that he had seen . vessels completely embayed, and lost in the roadster of Lyme.—The Resolution was agreed to. The following sums were then voted: For the Board of Ariculture • For the Fort's on the West Coast of Africa Superannuation Alloviance to Retired Comas IRISH ESTIMATES. Mr. C. GRANT moved that the sum of C 24, be granted for defraying the expenses of the scant Charter. schools in Ireland. He observed the charge for these establishments last year £84,000, making a reduction this year of tlr He was happy to inform the Committee, that institutions were at present managed on a mud ter system than had prevailed some time ago, that in the course of the last 14 or 15 years, improvements had been introduced. He conic say, for those respectable individuals who were head of the schools, that they were disposed to ward every plan for improving the system on the seminaries were conducted, and for reds the expenditure. Sir H. PARNELL observed on the great al of the sums voted for the Irish Charitable Institutions of various kind's. No less than £200,000 had been voted for them within the last year. He hoped some reduction would be made by a more economical Eys tern of management. Sir G. HILL insisted on the great benefit derived from the Irish Protestant Charter Schools. Mr. HUME objected entirely to the principle on which these schools were founded. He thought the new mode of education, which had been found so beneficial in England and Scotland, should be ex tended to these schools. Colonel BARRY supported the system pursued is these schools. Mr. ABERCROMBY insisted on the propriety of introducing the improvements in education to the e schools. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER de. fended the system of the Chartered Schools. Lord JOCELYN said, the schools in question had been productive of the most extensive benefit. Mr. C. GRANT begged to be understood as not in any degreopledging himself as to what he misl:t propose next year with respect to the schools. The usual sums were voted for the services of the Charitable Institutions of Ireland. On these several motions, questions were i.ut and answers given ; but they produced no debate. On the Vote for a Grant of £9OOO to defray t'e expense of publishing Proclamations, &c. in the Newspa i Ms, some opposition was excited. It objected to, s an improper application of the Pub:,c Money for the purpose of influencing the Press. Mr. BANKES supported the vote as proper and Mr. HUME protested againit such an expenditure noted t to t h e tadj olwi L ; e num. e 12 3; wai id! kti subject •end • :It aid, a Con t . ere wa s noftlx Ile made • dada ',Me C. oved hed e for d:e Pose ER said, aly t poLie ER tha t &DM scot% o be me ER s.: 8 1 country if the •_se iLre ray to' I iliterlak enalied that u. oat t. ;reed:e: L/00S, I flea A 48 f Li,' • C cnou,ll , which' the kr- rejudice ad. ,ho had tot ben s. lilt ould Se to large adstcad 17,001 2111.0 1,10 :24,000 Prole• *A that 'ar A 413 10,000. at these ,ch bet• ; o and ▪ greal alto at the to (dr- I which doting mount tutions d been d some :al xys- lerived ple on •lit the nd sJ 5e ex- ued in iety of thee R in had s not misl:t of the iveral ; but ty t was rand liture