Star. — London, England, 1809-04-26 00:00:00

.• t . •,• r • - t L e a for rr iit his ei:, , ,r is that thc,ugn the it ntent had nc ;. , 11 ins mind respectability h.thit of votit tient. He t ti seek for h .:•tppose that Sliter Parlia Lilo last man t•-ve such ar p r epared to ruin, beca t; and I vi ,,,rite on a o pinion id al qave an of a learning lend their lit ereir merit I (Year, hear. propose excel election of .L swer, that hi anA that eve overt act to make no sucl such a defeni circumstance House, ,nor title that stic corruption of Lilt" lvould nt !lister of the that he thong t, use all his ment to whit think his offic individual co sent transacti undoubtedly . th a no l:im. Indeec have been thi t. , have acted very natit any thing di 1‘ One •.t•]ttc as any thing Sligo had no ..14 that u. ; ;-.lure, t. In waah :.e be where he 7 Wis there a had :acted fro not exhibit it self of a very 1 .. , that his it was onl No, if any m pitude even i excuse. So on his part, in the busine commttnicati mind compic ing to excite Reding was subject, he r 4 breaking off moment refit c,,ndemnatio that he woul only for no spects in life, the ~ vorld, a 'ender man's be said was no: strictly c to which ur imputed, hat fie ad —the from former to the public the c;rcumst; confined in i best of his al tle. , .voured tc in ':!Lich it c strip it of all encompassed ci%lon. lie titer, without tupt, or whet •: , inintit a cri that attendet had ova ] :hip or (1 Act requiring, 'Lilly had n t‘itit patient th, , ar, , lit to h Ti::e Noble an obeisance Lord A. I lug effect : " 1 bat it ap • in tlu: yc 13Gard of C a:1.1 one of Lis 11 1:J::,1% at Li tur the put " niere • ernp:oyei " - lhat SUCII • t'le Loard of ~ , rvan: of rbt of the Hi Lord who had so called upon r ere lcula and to 62nd in the present discussion: He - - • , urse, and hazard the corise ..;ne had the misfortunetobe Men .• . • riled on thi s occasion Mar/tear ). • ..; L ow that all the circumstanceshad • • - ed, to the feelings of any man whe • -, y motive or personal turpitude could him? He did not wish to act in any „:ning the dignity of Parliament : he ~tte his moti-res, and lrave it to that House dtcision on them. He assured the House it a moment had an idea that the appoint gift could lead to any corrupt influence, ,at House or in individual electors. Al individual who was to retire from Parlia lot been named, still the impression made was, that he was not only a man of great but that he was one of those in the :log and acting in unison with Govern : thought him a man who had t some favour his son or nephew, and who never could It such favour would operate to corrupt lament or Elections ; indeed, he would be n on earth to grant a favour which could In effect. Even admitting (what he was ) deny) that the election system was cor se there were places where ministerial in property and personal respectability might a return ; this, in his opinion, and in the able men, ought not to be restrained, for opportunity to meritorious characters, men Ig and official distinction, who could not lives to purposes of local agitation, to have rewarded by the Crown and country. 1-.) It had been asked him, why did he !ending his favour for the purpose of the Lord Clancarty ? To this he might an he had never put the offer into practice ; ren in cases of treason it required some 'o procure a conviction. But he would ich answer : he would disdain to rely upon !nee, but he would say, that taking all the :es of the case together, no man in that no Committee appointed by it, could de ich conduct virtually went so far to the of a vote as to invalidate the election. The not bear them out in saying so. As a Mi.. le Crown, he had no hesitation in saying, ight he was in duty bound, in election cases, is influence for the support of the Govern ich he belonged ; but he certainly did not ice should stimulate him so far as to control :on duct as to individual acts. The pre :Lion (as it had turned out) he could not ,y justify to the fulleA extent, but he would moral corruption had been proved agaifist ed if he had any corrupt views, this would he case of all others in which he ought not :J on them. It was a case which, from ;ore, precluded secrecy. If he intended 3tslionest or bate, this case of all others ich he ought to avoid. This was as plain ig he could say—as plain as that Lord to seat in that House (Hear, hear!)—as .t he had not seen Mr. Reding in Down ndeed it there were any case in the world could positively prove an alibi, it would was accused of filiging cards. (A laugh.); a man in that House to believe, that if he r-om any impure motive, this case would it to the world ? He would not avail him .y just plea which he might make—name intention as to the disposal of the writer ally intention, and had never been acted on. man could believe that there was any tur in the intention, he would disclaim such an so far from any unjust or impure conclusion , he had been even so prudent and careful less, that he held it at his option after any lion with Lord Clancarty, to alter his letely. (Hear, hear !) It any thing tend ce suspicion arose—if any bad character of is evinced—if two stories were told on the reserved to himself the power of instantly ff the negotiation ; but let any man for a :fleet upon the probabilities in favour of his ion. Can any man in his senses believe ld be mad enough to sacrifice, thus wan purpose, his public character, his pro 'e, his official situation, his respectability in and in short evevy interest which could 's existence dear to him No, all that could is, that he, by means which perhaps were consonant to the usage of Parliament, but tridoubtedly no corrupt motive could be lad sought the advancement of his private advancement of one too whom he knew r proofs could prove ultimately beneficial is service ! He had now gone as fully into aances as the case, which was extremely . its circuit, could admit : he had, to the abilities, and certainly with candour ; en to give the House a just view of the light ought to be considered—he had tried to ll the aggravations with which it had been :d, and he would now rely upon their de- Le would leave it to them to consider whe ut any motive, he would be wilfully cor tether his senses could so forsake him as to Arne, Nthich, from the very circumstances ted it, he knew must become public. He fly to u egret that motives of private friend eablic zeal could have inthiced him to any tg the cognizance of that House. He cer not erred intentionally, and would submit !cc to any censure which he might be have incurred. ale Lord haying concluded his speech, made :e to the bpraker, and withdrew. HAMILTON then moved to the follow- appears to this House that Lord Viscount Castle year 1803, baying just quitted the Presidency of Contronl, and being at the time a Privy Councillor 11 , 1a;esty's Secretath s of State, did deliver up, into Lor Clancarty, ali ritership, of which he bad the impose of exchanging it for a Seat in Parliament. •ely front thd disagreement of some subordinate 'id, ti:is design WaS not carried into effect. I conduct was a dereliction of his duty as President if Cortroul, a gross violation of his engagements as the Crown, and an attack on the purity and consti- House." i\ NiNG lamented that the Noble Lord, many years served the public, should be to defend himself from charges, which tated lo frustrate his whole object in life, id lin into retirement with feelings the most waundeditnd palatal. The Noble 'Lord had not defended himself upon principle, nor should the Noble Speaker attempt to do so ' • for, conscientious ly, he regret te d to say , he could not do it. The Noble Speaker was afraid of weakening the impres sion, which be trusted the Noble Lord had made by going at any length into the case ; . but he should very briefly refer t o it. tThe Noble Speaker then went through it, commenting upon the Noble Lord's (A. Hamilton) inferences from it.)- This case, Lord Binning contended, was attended with no circum stances of aggravation. The name of Lord Clan carty was known throughout the affair; and the Wri tership was not at his disposal to become the object of any general trific, fai less to be the object.of any money-negociation. It had been said, that Presidents of the Board of Controul had no right to patronage: this might be very true; but patronage they had en joyed ever since the Board had been instituted. It the Noble Lord was to be condemned, it must be by the evidence before the House, and not by fo reign aid ; he must be condemned upon this unexe cuted intention, which was all that had been proved against him. Although it.was not possible to justify the conduct of the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) upon principle, Mill the Noble Speaker thought that' the Resolutions of the Noble Lord (A. Hamilton) would draw down upon his head too heavy a punishment. There were degrees of punishment —one would not puni sh a man for intention to Commit a crime so severely as for the commission of that crime ; or the malty animus might make a distinction of punishment. The simple dismissal from office of the Noble Lord would be his least injury. It might be said this was no punish ment ; and, certainly, such was the precariousness of office, that in general it could not be considered as such. But when grave charges of corruption were made, sanctioned and registered against a Minister, and in consequence of these, he was dismissed his office, was it then no punishment ? The Noble Speakerhoped the House would exercise its sound discretion, and when it considered what was due to, the public, would reflect a little what was due to the individual. He concluded with moving, that the other Orderi of the Day be then yead, Mr. W. WYNNE declared that if the House pas sed over this transaction as one unworthy of its notice it would be no less than declaring that the Noble Lord was at liberty to open a shop for the barter of seats in that House, and carry on every species of corruption and abuse. It had been stated on a for mer nit ht, that an Office was opened every Session at the Treasury, for the barter of seats in Parliament. And the House was now called on by the Noble Lord who spoke last, to declare indirectly that such practices were justifiable. He certainly thought the course pursued by the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) was more Jtalicious and respectful to the House than that produced on former occasions, when accused persons attempted to justify their conduct. The manner in which he now acted, certainly ought to mitigate the judgment of the House ; and whatever resolution the House should adort, it ought to be more witha view to maintain its own dignity, than to press with any weighty punishment the Noble Lord who stood ac cused before them. But then, it did not follow that the House was to take no notice of it. It was a most heavy and serious offence, for a Minister of the Clown to enter into negociations to commute the pa tronage of his office for Seats in Parliament. And if the Parliament now passed over this as a matter of no importance, see what a dangerous precedent it would establish. Mr. CROAKER rose to do justice to the memory of a friend of his then no more (the Marquis of Sligo) name had been alluded to by the Noble Lord (A. Hamilton) as a deep participator in corruption. If the Noble Lord had read the Report with that at tention which he had owed it, he would have found the story of Reding, as to the Marquis of Sligo, most absurd and contradictory. First, the Marquis of Sligo was to procure the person for the place, then the place for the person ; and, upon being further pressed, Reding was driven to more inconsistencies. If the Noble Lord had seen this, as he must have done, upon the face of the Report, upon what principle could he charge his (the Honourable Member's) Noble Friend with corruption, at the expence of in vading the silence of the tomb ? The Noble Lord had declared his readiness to retract where he was wrong—that intention the Hon. Member called upon him to fulfil, in justice to the memory of the Marquis of Sligo. To prove the fallacy of the whole of Red ing's evidence, the Hon. Member adduced that pas sage where he said, that Lord Sligo, upon Lord Clancarty's name being mentioned, said, " he was his man." Now it was the well known law, that, for an Irish Borough, an Irish Peer, such as Lord Clancarty was, could not sit. That, treaty, there fore, could not be carried on ; and the same might be said of Lord Hawarden, to whom the Borough was said to be offered through Reding. But the Hon. Member pledged himself that Lord Sligo had no Borough, as it was called. He knew his LOrdship intimately, and would take upon him to assert that his Noble Fricgid had no influence, but what arose from his landed property in the county where he re sided. It, would be therefore no small portion of the indignation which the prevarication of Reding must excite, that he had thus invaded the peace of the grave, to screen himself from guilt half an hour longer. The second Resolution of the Noble Lord (A. Hamilton), that the exchange, but for a mis understanding among the underlings, would have taken place, was thus false in the fact. the first Resolution too stated that the Noble Lord (Castle reagh), did things both as Secretary of State and as President of the Board of Controul ; *hen the fact was, that his Lordship was not President of the Board then. When the Noble Lord (A. Hamilton) found this, he would be obliged to say " Both my premises are faulty—V ote for my conclusion."— ( Laughter _from the Opposition Benehrs.)—Whether the Noble Lord would be ablq to forgive his friends for laughing at him, the Honourable Member could not say—( larighterfrom all sides)—but he could assure the Noble Lord, it was at his logic they were laughing, and not at himself. Lord MILTON did not rise to speak on the ques tion, but merely to explain his conduct, which had been alluded to so directly by the Noble Lord (Cas tlereagh). He was free to confess, that at the words which fell from that NoLle Lord at the time alluded to, he felt it impossible to refrain !rem an expression of the indignation' he fet from the very commence ment of his speech. As an apology to the House, however, 'was necessary, he rose now ter the' purpose of making it Mr. W. SMITH thought that Lord Sligix.had nothing in the remotest degree to do with the pres'nt case ; but he could not reconcile the warmth with which the Honourable Member (Mr. Croaker) had vindicated his Noble Friend from any concern with what, according to him, pressed so lightly upon the Noble Lord (Castlereagh). The Honourable Mem ber thought it highly unconstitutional that seats in Parliament should be to be obtained in the manner which had been brought before the House. As to the first inconsistency which the Honourable Member (Mr. Croaker) had pointed out in the Noble, Lord's Resolutions, it had never occurred to any one of the Committee, and therefore no extreme degree of blame could attach to any man for not discovering it. As to the second, he thought that if a man could hold the duties of two offices, he was able to violate them. As to the patronage being only used in this particular instance, and not to serve Government in general, was not Lord Clancarty a Government man ? and could there be a doubt which way he would vote ? It was said that no corruption attached to the voters for these seats that were to he obtained. They could be gotten for 40001. or 50001. and there must be cor ruption somewhere. It was impossible to disconnect this subject from that of Parliamentary Reform. Lord Chatham had said, that if Parliament did not reform from within, it would be reformed from without, and that with a vengeance. When abuses like these forced themselves into our eyes, if one reform were not ob tained, another would be called tor, which no man would wish to see less than the Honourable Member. —He considered the Order of the Day on the ques. tion of Irish Commissioners' Fees, as a matter of in finitely less importance than the subject under the consideration of the House. The present was no or dinary common-place question. He wished Gentle. men to consider the reasons why the statutes, inflict ing pains and penalties on persons giving or receiving bribes, were passed. Was it not that the House of Commons should be pure and free from all imputa tion of improper or corrupt motives ? \Vas not that the principle ? He thought that the character of Mr. Reding had but little to do with the question.— He only lamented his connection with the Noble Lord, by which he thought the Noble Lord appeared to be somewhat contaminated. But, much as he was disposed to listen f - avourably to what had fallen from the Noble Lord, when he' recollected to have heard in that House frequently, such strong accusa -1 tions on the subject of con option in Ireland, in toe promotion of the measure of the Union, from Gentle men who, from their locality, must have been ac quainted with the transactions there ; and upon that question, when he recollected to have heard those accusations so often repeated, and never answered, he must say at least, that the reflection suggested to his mind was this, that there is a sort of tendency in the human mind to form an estimate upon such matters accommodated to the circumstances and situations in which men are placed; and that those who are in private life Gentlemen and men of ho- ' nour, do, somehow or other, when they get. into the tracks and labyrinths of politics, find out how t reconcile the use of improper means to what they may conceive to be wise and good ends. He recol lected some years ago, when Mr. Hastings was on his defence, that he stated such matters, without the least apparent idea of impropriety, in justification of his conduct, as, to say the least of it, astonished him, and indeed astonished a majority of that House.— . That astonishment rose to a very high degree. The fact was, it ended by Mr. Hastings's denial of his own defence ; and his advocates were reduced to the necessity of saying that his defence was made for l him, and that be read that which was not the off- spring of his own mind. From such things he col. lected, that political men used means, without much scruple, to obtain ends. He thought that a regard lessness of means to gain ends might be as produc tive of public evil as a total indifference to ends.— Unless a heavy mark of the disapprobation of that I House fell upon the transaction disclosed, the House would lose greatly in its character in t h e country , I and would place itself in a state of jeopardy in which I it had never been before At the same time, he wish- I ed to act with moderation towards the individual j 'party. It seemed to be thought by som e , t h at t h e current of public opinion should be withstood man-. fully. He thought that on some occasions that might be right ; but if the direction of public opinion was I right, it might be dangerous indeed to attempt to repress it. He concluded by observing, that the case was as strong as need be made out, and he could not conceive how any man could do his duty without affixing upon it a mark of reprobation. Mr. M. SUTTON thought that in this, as in every other case, the punishment inflicted ought to be pro-, portioned to the crime. No bribery—no improper. action, with a view to his own private emolument, had been attributed to the Noble Lord. He, there. fore, did not think they could feel themselves impe riously called on by their duty to their Constituents, to insert the Resolutions on the Journals of the House. He concurred with a Noble Lord on that side of the House (Lord Binning) in the propriety of passing on to the Order of the Day. Mr. G R ATTAN agreed with the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, that punishment should ever be proportioned to the magnitude of the offence; and he therefore was of opinion that one of his Majesty's Ministers presiding at the Board sf Conti-mil, should, for being concerned in such a transaction, be punished by depravation of power. He did the Noble Viscount the justice to say, he had made a very decent defence; but he understood that he acknowledged the fact, but denied, but without any idea, that it could be injuri ous to the Constitution. He did not believe that he had any such idea, but he did think that he had acted in an unwarrantable manner to accommodate a friend. He had violated the Constitution ; but was not aware of the extent of the effects of that violation ; the evi dence on the table was to substantiate the former ; and it was for them to consider if they could overlook that transaction, in consideration of the latter. Par liament seats could noLbe sold without great injury to the Constitution : holding two- offices, the Noble Lord had used the one against the other, and both to further an object which he ought not to have concern. ed himself with. Ministers had no right to make use of public offices, which were in fact public property, to purchase seats in Parliament If the principles which enabled Ministers to act contrary to the sense of Parliament were considered,. the magnitude of the . tiva dim be fantods. The Noble Lord had acknow ledged having placed a writersitip at the disposal of the Earl of Clancarty, to facilitate his coming into Parliament; and he could not think when one of the fundamental prin c ipl es o f t h e C onst i tut i on w e re vio lated by a Minister, that they ought to pass on to the Orders of the Day. The CHANCELLOR of -the EXCHEQUER said he should think he neglected every private duty if % feeling as he did, he failed to rise, regardless of whatever he might have to encounter, in behalf of his valued friend. He did not Clink, when he enter ed the House that night, that there would h-..ve been any doubt as to the facts or to the law applicable SO them. In the former instance he had been disap. pointed, but not in the latter. The Right' Honour. able Gentleman then pointed out wherein the func tions of that Tribunal differed from those of Courts of Law. He was happy to follow the Gentleman who spoke last ; he joined with him in the candid ex position he had made; agreed with him as to the na tare of the offence ; and the law for punishing it; only differing as to the propriety of its being applied in the present instance. He thought his Honourable Friend (Mr. Croaker) had been reproved for vindi cating the character of the Marquis of Sligo, when he did not want reproof ; and the Honourable Genii,- man would have done well, had he considered, before he adverted to the Union, the impropriety of Matit ing the public mind by insinuations which were not founded in fact. One of the charges preferred against his friend and colleague was of such a nature that he could not but reply to it in particular, as it did indeed tend to aggravate his conduct in a very great degree. He alluded to that part of the Noble Lord's speech, where he spoke of the indignation of his N Ile Friend as being affected. He was sure his indignation was most sincere, and if the evidence was perused, he thought that he was so must be obvious. He had never seen Davis but once before the negociation was over. —(Here the Right Honourable Gentleman slightly glanced at the evidence.) A short time before the Committee commenced its sitting, Davis wrote a let. ter to him, stating that there was a case in which he wished the Noble Lord to direct him what to do.-- The answer of his friend had been very different to what Davis had expected—" You can do me no greater personal favour than by stating all you know, &c." His conduct in this instance proved that con scious of the rectitude of his intentions, he was desi rous the whole of the circumstances connected with his conduct should be laid h:fote the Committee that it might be-cleared up, he therefore thought the No ble Lord had no right to think his friend's indigna tion was insincere on the evidence of Davis. Nothing had been said against the Noble Lord's conduct in a moral point of view, and if the circumstances laid before the House should cause them to come to an unfavourable decision, whatever might be their sen i• ments, he should still feel justified in his attachment to the friend he loved. The resolution was neither true in words nor facts ; there were inaccuracies of great importance. Whatever error his friend might have, committed, he hoped the House would be parti cularly guarded as to the manner in which they word ed the proposition. The first resolution he could not agree to, .and the second, which stated that the ne gociation failed through the underlings, was equelly incorrect. If the resolutions were passed at all they must be amended. No reliance should be placed on the evidence of Reding. Lord Sligo had no seat to sell ; Sligo was a name he made use of before the Com mittee ; but which he probably never thought of be fore. The manifold absurdities, and contradictions in that man's evidence, rendered it wholly useless. It was evident the man meant to impose on the public, by making use of the letter which his Noble Friend had indiscree:ly written to him. The injurious effects of offences he did not mean to deny It had been said, that if disposing of East India Patronage were regarded as such a venal error, the disposal of patro nage of every other description would cease to be re probated. No one, he believed, thought of justifying an abuse ; from whatever source power might be derived, the person holding it was responsible for the use he made of it. It had been said the deprivation of power would be an appropriate punishment ; bat a removal under such circumstances would be deemed as severe a punishment as he could have deserved, had he been intentionally guilty, and the tregociation suc cessful. The guikof intention was all that had been imputed to him, and of that the last speaker had ac quitted him, as the Right Honourable Gentleman had said he did not believe, had . the Noble Lord seen it in another point of view, that he would have con cerned himself with it. It had been compared to a case of bribery ; he would ask the Gentleman who made the comparison, if, in a case of bribery,, he would proceed as he now proposed to do ? Should it be proved before a Committee that two Sessions ago a Member had unsuccessfully tried to gain a seat by bribery, would he have that Member punished now as if he had gained his seat by bribery ? His Noble Friend had been acquitted of the guilt of intention, yet still could they be called upon to pass sentence with all the consequent punishment he had before spoken of ? The trap that he had planned, arid which the Noble Lord had alluded to, from the ample scope it had been allowed, proved the integrity of his own intentions. He did not think they would consult either the feelings of their constituents, or their own dignity, by singling out for such severe punishment a case to which so many alleviating circumstances were at tached. He therefore proposed, that they should pass to the Order of the Day, not .because that was cf any importance, but because it appeared to him nothing farther on this subject could be required. Mr.,GRATTAN, in explanation, said, he did not state it as his opinion that the Noble Lord was not guilty, but that he believed he was not aware of the extensive effects of such a transaction. Mr. PONSONBY declared, that in what he had. to observe on the present question, nothing was more remote from his mind than any intention of hurting the feelings of the Noble Viscount whose conduct was the object of it ; what he wished more draw the attention of the House to will sion which the case of the Noble Viscox on the face of the evidence before thi likely to make upon the country. Aims', should be aware how deeply it must meter of the House of Commons, both and the future, if such a transaction wa. over not only without punishment, buk ment of a Noble Lord would propose. animadversion or notice. His conicienca ■ fib particularly to as, the impres- )unt, as it s:ood he House, was e all,Gentlemen affect the cha- / . 6‘ l ,a f s or t o t he bepassed present It as the amend- e, even without F:nce and a sense