Star. — London, England, 1816-05-07 00:00:00

. ar a. Mier. ride allowed, that the preserrae of Rams gate Hariflour was very desirable, but ,if the Direc tors, year • after year, were suffered to increase the. duties on ntering it, the expenses would more than counterbal• nce any advantages which the commerce: of the coun ry might derive from. it. The direction of the .harb our had, on a former ocean on, and eaten' in bther h nds, been termed - a job •L. le Worthy Alderman i. but facts alone could enable the House s i to judge. ot the extreme purity of the to whom it had now fi . len. The Ern thing the I msent Direc tors did a s to • vote themselves sal ti , ls.—(liear, kan)—frrAm the estates belonging t:,,` ,the harbour, and which Inn Director ever before caul')) ed. The 'Worthy Alderman and his friends it the 'manage ment, had dso laid out 4115;000 in clilding a ban queuing:holm —lllear, hear,) —and t o doubt, from his long extrorience in the Corporation, of the City, he could very variously prove it -meat ry. He could mention many other instances of . teat waste, but should content. himself with the prelent, and point ot4 to the House, the dishonest manner in which th e Bill had been drawn up. It appeared; that the ships of Sandwich were exempted from the additional du ties, so were those of Weymouth and Lyme Regis, and for no other reason that he could discover, than that they sent four representatives to Parliament. The ships of Great Yarmouth and Arundel were also included in this system of special favouritism, and she same reason alone could be assigned for it. • Mr. MANNING said, that no bargains had been made, and that these places had been exempted in the original Bill. Mr. tvlAltltYAT.said, that the good fortune an nounced to the town of Sandwich, respecting the in crease of its allowance from Ramsgate harbour, was more than he had reason to expect; £2OO a,year was settled on that town 70 years ago, and considering the variations in the nominal value of money and commodities since that period, £2OO then were equal to £4OO at the present. Sandwich, however, had really a claim to an increase, for Ramsgate harbour and Sandwich haven open into the same bay, and by running the piers from the former, the sand must be thrown into the latter. • Mr. WAR RE read an extract of the Report of 1792, when a great sum was considered unnecessary for this Harbour, which had cost up till then at the rate of ,85000 a year ; but which, since then, had cost £12,000. a year. As die income now was £22,000 a year, with £30,000 in the Funds, the sum of £loo,ooo,might be cleared off in five years,•even including the Worthy Baronet's Portland stone build ings for carpenters' workshops,- and all his other fancies. Mr. LUSHINGTON observed, that on enquiry, he found no necessity for the Bill. Lord ARCIIIBALD HAMILTON opposed the Bill. Sir CHARLES MONCK supported the Bill. The House then divided on the original motion. that the Bill be read a second time, when there ap iseared— Ars •-... ae• •• • ••• .•• ...........».... SS Nees .. 00000 .• 000000 ••••.•••••.• ••••• ••• 91 Msjoiity against the Rill ... 000000 —3 OneitATULAT/ONS ON THE ROYAL MARRIAGE. Lord CASTLEREAGH ruse pursuant to the no tice which he had give on a former day, to move that the House should expiess, in an Address in the Throne, its congratulation on the happy marriage ot her Royal Highness the Princess Charlotte. It would tie quite uni.ecessary for him. upon this occa- Sion, to trouble the House with any attempt to ex cite their tidings on this subject, as the House had already, atter the message from his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, taken occasion to testify their feelings, and had marked the interest which they took in that event, by providing, not only a suitable, but a liberal provision for her Royal Highness and her Illustrious Consort. It was therefore only necessary to continue this, by carrying to the foot ot the Throne their congratulations on this occasion. He would propose, on this occasion, that the House should carry an Address, not only to his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, but also to her Majesty, and to the Princess Charlotte and her Consort. The Noble Lord then moved. " That an humble Address be presented to his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, to congratulate his Royal Highness on the happy nuptials of the Princess Charlotte Augusta of Wales with the Prince Leopold George Frederick of Co boirrg of Saalfeld." The Address was agreed to unanimously ; after which it was also voted, " That this House do con- gratulate her Majesty on these ha Fpy nuptials;" and“ That a congratulatory Message should be sent by the' House to her Royal Highness the Princess Charlotte Augusta, and her Illustrious Consort." These Addresses were all vcted unanimously. IN COMIC TAX. Mr. BROUGHAM gave notice, that on Tuesday ' the 2lst instant, he intended to more kr the destruc tion of all the Papers eonnecied with the Income Tax, so far as related to the names, residences, and incomes of individuals. After a few words between Mr. Burrell, Lord Ctstlereagb, Lord Milton, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as to the day on which the Committee on HusbAndry Horses should be fixed, on the motion of the Right Honourable Gentleman it was postponed tell Thursday. CIVIL LIST. Mr. TIEitNEY, pursuant to his notice, rose to submit to the House a motion relative to the regula. tion of the Civil List. Considering the nature , of the subject, and the minute details to which its disctission would lead, he felt that he would be obliged to ap. peal to the candour and indulgence of the House, on account of the time which he would occupy, and the dry, uninteresting statements which be would be obliged to submit to them—statements which every Member who was in any degree acquainted with, the is.bject, must know in such a discussion it was quite impossible to avoid. When the Noble Lord (Castle reagh) a few nights ago brought forward a motion cm &le subject, there was reason to complain that the rapers on Which the Nobla L'ord -supported that motton'were nor laid before she House its time for him to avail himself of them in this night's discus. sion, with any degree •of advantages It was true, that within the two last days be had studied these papers, but however much he himself (Mr. Tierney) eight be now master of them, the disadvantage lay in this, that they were not before all t h e Memb er s wills 'Milne s and ever, Number who bad ay. V • a *cached this subject Most feel that Ai: was a disad;l vantage of th e most serious kind. But it:appeared' now that this was not the oily disadvantage under which hehe labsuied, for the Noble Lord had not onlY kept back the evidence but had been ta m p erin g with the Jury. What be meant bytlits was, that the No ble Lord had held meetings at his own house, com posed of certain Members of the House, where this subject had been privately discussed. Now he would leave it to the House to judge on this conduct. Those Members, who were commonly called ,independent, or the country Gentlemen, were invited by the No. We Lord to hold private meet.ngs at his house, where they had the whole details of the business ex plained to them. The evideoce, thetefore, was with held from the House as a whole, while to a part of the Members it was secretly explained. He would appeal whether there could be a stronger proof of the nervousness of his Majesty's Ministers—ot their feve rish anxiety on this topic, than this necessity under which they found themselves of having part of the House pre-informed upon the question ; although, perhaps, not strictle irregular, yet he did complain that it was a course of proceeding very unfair. (Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had done him no more than justice when he allowed the other night that he (Mr. Tierney) was actuated by a disposition to maintain the splendour of the Royal Family.— Between himself and the Noble Lord the only ques tion upon this subject was, how and to what degree this splendour ought to be maintained ? If by splen. dour was meant that outward glare and show of mionificence which displayed itself in ostentatious trifles, then he would oppose it. But if it meant that honest splendour which applied to material concerns, .which &hewed itself in an unblemished character, and in the true digriity of conduit, then be would say, it was a splendour which heilesired studiously to main tain. The Noble Lord had said, that there was a disposition within the last few lien to throw the amount oldie whole expettiliterd et the Civil List on the Royal Family, with a view to vilify and degrade them in the eyes of the people. Such a dispositoon, for his own part, he begged entirely to disavow. But at the same time, be could not exactly say, that the Noble Lord had quite disproved all the imputations of extravagance on the part of the Royal Family , which might have been cast upon them. Accounts had been laid upon the table, which 'hewed that ex penses had been pertinaciously continued whicfrproved that these imputations were by no means groundless. No man had ever said that the whole extravagance of the Civil List was: occasioned by the Royal Fa mily. For his own part he said it was not ; and, in every discussion upon this subject, he had endea voured to point out every separate branch 'in which the expenses were incurred.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord, however, endeavoured to :hew that only 4409,000 per annum, or at least only about one third of the amount of the Civil List was bestowed in the expenses of the Royal Family, and then the Noble Lord said, that he wished the House knew what was the amount of the Civil List in France.— Now he knew not what the Noble Lord might have picked up in the course of his travels to enable him to prove that the Civil List of France is, above all others, worthy of admiration; but at least of this he was sure, that if the Noble Lord had examined into every thing connected with the Civil List of France and the expenses of the King of France, and of the Royal Family, he would have round one trait worthy of imitation; he would have found, that' when the Parliament of France lately voted a liberal sum for the support of one branch of the Royal Family, there had been a corresponding act of liberality by the re turn of half the sum so voted. All the circumstances of this country considered, it would not have been improper or unfitting if his Royal Highness had sent down a message to the same effect with that to which he had alluded in Frame, and announcing that be had himself resolved to act upon those principles of economy and retrenchment which he had recommen ded in his speech from the throne. It was genero sity, not justice, on the part of the French Monarch. But here it would be very different; for the people Of England had done so much to support the Crown that they now could scarcely support -themselves.— (Hear, hear, hear.) It was important that the House should understand the real situation of the Royal Fa mily. The papers before the House stated, that if the hereditary eevenues of the Crown bad remained in the hands of his Majesty, the amount 'would be much greater than 0800,000, for which betted given them up. There was not a word of truth in that, statement. Those revenues were not , beteditary— they were limited, and most of them would have ceased with the life of George the Third. He had made himself a statement of the revenue which the Royal Family, in all its blanches, derived from the country, and' should leave it to the Noble Lord and to the House to decide whether-the public liberality ' had not been carried to the utmost possible extent. The /barge for his bliu)esty's Estiblishatent at WWl sof .IWas . . . . . £lOO.OOO For her Majesty and Household , 55,000 For the four Princesses • - - 152,000 -hi all far the Windsor Establishment • m 0250,000 0100,000 appeared to him an enormous grant for the first part of the establishment at Windsor. Could it be necessary, in his present unfortunate situation, that his Majesty should have four Lords of the Bed chamber, and as many Grooms ? The revenue of the Prince Regent would be found still more liberal. Hts Ro y yal Hide ussrec eses privy purse misted of (per. fatl ) . . . Mom) He had es salditieeal anewsmo et . 10,000 uet, et Cemarrap pesieoell his - 15,000 e g ad ) hie pot en et the liebeee et tbe ciemildated Fund . • • • 43,000 Of which no account whatever need be given. But this was not all : the revenue which he derived under the fourth and fitth classes amounted to 4384,000, which, added to 4128,000, made 4512,000, entirely for the Prince Regent's personal splendour. As to the younger branches of the Royal Family, their re- , venue was rather too inconsiderable: it amounted, in the aggregate, to only £298,000, paid out oi the Consolidated Fund. The whole revenue of the Royal , Family, however, apart from the Civil List, was not less than 41,030,000. No one proposed,to diminish that revenue, but it would have been more gratifying conduct on their part. had they spontaneously ofred to curtail the charge thus made on the people. He should now endeavour to follow the Noble Lord in' the statements which Iss bad made last Fziday. Tbs. charge fOr the Civil List ending in Sannary, 11316, 1 'lnt 4060,000; that 'for 1604, had 'only been 4919,0(00, to that there was an, excess of 41810 00 over 1904. The average estimates of the seven years ending in January, 1811. was 41,103,000, which being deducted from 41,860,000 now proposed, left 'en excess of 4257,000. The Noble Lord would say, that by a Bill brought into Parliament in 1811, the House hactrecognised that only in the cases in which the increase should exceed one hundred' and twenty four thousand pounds would an application become necessary. This he denied. but even then, there w iuld still remain an AugMentation of E 133,000. The House were so accustomed to millions, that a few hundred thousand pobnds might produce but little effect upon them. As to himself, he thought the sum of 4257,000 of alarming magnitude, and one which ought to in duce the House to pause before they came to a vote on the subject, He wished to infuse a spirit of honest inquiry into the House, and for that purpose, should propose the appointment of a Committee to consider the Civil List Accounts, with power to send for per sons and for documents. Any other course would be mere mockery. He then stated, that he had ceased to attend the Committee last year, because he had found it impossible to proceed without the evidence of persons, whose attendance he was not allowed to procure. He objected to the present Report of the Committee on account of the manner in which that Committee was composed. He had last year called upon the House to appoint a Committee to consider how to draw a proper estimate for the Civil List. This *.a resisted on the ground that it would be an outrage on the feelings of the Royal,ramily. Yet the Noble Lord had done that which 'lie would not allow the House to do. Suppo;et Ww-' the Committee which he (Mr. Tiereer) had mooed for last year had been granted, and that the Noble Lord had pro that it should be eeclusively composed of the pro posed Paymaster of the Forces, the Treasurer of the Woods rui Forests, and the Secretary to the Treasury, such an impudent proposal would have been rejected with indignation. Yet this had actually taken place, and Mr. Long, Mr. Huskisson, and Mr. Arbuthnot had been appointed by the Noble Lord to repott On the subject of the Civil List. How had they even made their estimate ? Was it merely their own specula dint or the result of inquiry ? In examining it he should leave out occasional payments altogether, and 'the sums from which the Civil List was to be cleared. The charge remaining after the exclusion of such ex penses was, for 1815, 41,150,000, and the average for the seven years ending in 1811, 4915,000. There was an increase upon those years therefore of £85,000.-r• By the establishment of 1815, this augmentation would be reduced to £42,000. After stating the manner in which that reduction was effected in the different items, he asked the Noble Lord Now he came to find th..t 'el 1,000 rr annum would be suf ficient for Ambassadors, when he had declared the, year before that they could not live under £12,W0 a year ? If the House resisted the 811,000, he had no doubt they would soon have it reduced to 410 ; 000.i He complained of the expenses winch attended the Noble Lord's Special Missions to the Continent, and which amounted to £43,809; and of those of his assistants, Lord Stewart and Lord Cathcart, the former of whom, besides his pay of £:2500 as Gene ral on the Staff, had spent £24,147; and the letter, including his salary, £23,000. The outfit of Am bassadors, which last year was rated at £74,000, was now only 451,000. - The salaries of Consul' were also reduced from 4140,000 to 4150,000. The House must feel that they were trifled with, when what was represented one year as absolutely necessary was spontaneously given up the next. He then entered into an examination of the proposed chaige for the Lord Steward's department. It was now eighty-five thousand pounds, instead of ninety-six thousand pounds as last year. What bad happened to cause a demand for 96 thousand pounds to be made last year, and one of only 85 thousand pounds this I He did not believe, in fact, that Lbrd Cholmondeley had made any suchdemand. Ninety-six thousand pounds had been given him to be spent ; and, as tar as feed ing and eating could, be had endeavoured to go through that sum, but bad failed. Bylooking at the quarterly estimates, he chewed that with all his exertions and advantages the Lord Steward had not been able to-make his Royal Highness eat his way through more than eighty-six thousand pounds..— This. Was the true cause of the estimate being now reduced to 485,000: In 1814, it was only 474,000, and yet in the teeth of the return, signed by the Lord Steward himself, he was now made to ask for 485,000. The next .department he should examine was that of the Lord Chamberlain. It was estimated last year at £43,000, and this year at £44000. — Some of the charges were ;—For St. James's patine, 41200 ; for Kensington, 4300 ; for Kew, 4200 for Hampton Ctiurt, 4600. But for Carlton House, and the other residences of the Prince Regent (and he had no other, as Brighton was his private property) 425,000 had, last year, been required, and £-20,000 this. This was most enormous, especially if all the sums spent during the last three years in furniture, were taken into consideration. On account of the visit of the Allied Sovereigns '480,000 of furniture had been ordered in store, more than was wanted, and it would almost appear impossible to introduce any more into Carlton House. During the seven years ending in 1814, St. James's cost 43000, but it was occupied by the Royal Dukes of Clarence, Cum berland, and Cambridge. Since that time, the ex penses of the younger branches of the family had been most cruelly reduced. Kensington was the resi dence of two Royal Dukes (Kent and Sussex), and they were not supplied with the means of repairing a broken pane of glan. r -(Cria of Hear, bean).- -They were pared down to 4150 a-piece, and all that to swell the expenses of Carlton-House to 28 Thousand Pounds 1 He then stated that his Majesty's expenses at Windsor, including the Queen's house, had not exceeded 411,714 per annuals during the seven years already alluded to. And yet there was sufficient splendour around him, and fetes were given more siratilying to the eyes of the . people than those that had since taken place, and yet they were now called upon to vote £20,000 to Carlton-House. To be sure, if the furniture were to be changed with every new fashion, the money might easily be spent. But if it were furnished, as Royal Palaces were in former times, for seven or eight years at once, 10 thousand pounds a-year would be more than sufficient to keep it its a state of proper repair and splecdour. As to other residences 01 the Prince Regent, these .were none, for the Cottage in Windsor Park In, a regular residence s and Brighton was his p ti l property. As to the Board of Works he felt jealousy, as it was under the contrail of Patti e% He trusted he had shewn, that were a full invees, tion to take place, something of considerable imp, tance might be saved. Why should there be at pe at two establishments—one for his Majesty and nn e the Prince Regent ? There were too many Public 01 cers. Were not the Lords of the Bed-chamber ta i l Majesty Lolders of mere sinecures, and rh,se a f 6 Royal Highness the Prince Regent ne:irly the vane, As to the regulation!: of the expenses of the Civil 4 in the Report of the Committee of last year, h ey ; a warrant in which hi; Royal Highness r com mit , ded, or rather ordered the three Commission evi i ready flamed to lay before the Lords of the Treaseri at the beginning of each quarter, accounts of they panes to be incurred, and at the end of the s amt quarter accounts of those which had really be en =red. This had taken place for a ti me . But from , October toliouary 1816 no Ruh estimate had b eat given. Some proposal was understood to have b eat made to the Treasury, of which they did not approve, and in consequence Lord Hertford bad ref ute d t o give in Ins estunate. The Treasury were going is appoint a person with power to examine L or d Rem ford and others on path ; but why should such a per , son be wortity of more confidence than any other, since .he would be like the rest, a servant of the C ron : A Minute of the Treasury, dated the 23j ot Febru. ary, revealed the subject .4 that dispute, and th e rea l nature of Lord Hertford's application. He seethed to have asked, that Brighton having been Atka 10 in point of building, land, and furniture, the 4 pease should be detrayed out of the Civil List". The Treasury had refused, but at last came to thu compromise, to apply, or rather to lainpply, tae Droits of Admiralty to that purpose. He theii real the Minute, directing that the deficiency ot Cita List be paid out of the Droits of Admiralty. when £534,000 had been paid last year, at that very slo .j meat there were £493,000 in Droits of the Adm it ralty in the hands of the Crown Why not app; them at the time, or at,,leest M them against the d ficiency of £277,000 this year P The Earl of Live pool and the Chancellor of the Exchequer had it 'presented to the Board, that the Prince Regu having made great additions to his residence a Brighton, which Was private property, they emcee opinion, that an aid of twenty thousand poundsshon:l be granted him, towards coveting those expenses,l4 of the Droits of the Admiralty. The vane states man had t.commended a grant of fifty thousand pounds out of the sante fund, to pay for tl:e ford ture of the r...idence AL Brighton, which they stip.. lated should be-furniture of the Crown —(Heer,hter4 1870,000 came to light, as the result of that's timate, which was wanting. The Droits of Atli* Iralty were public money—(Nent, heer)—tor thong! the Crown had the first disposal of them, yet tit Crown must l ive an account to the Country (if 6 ' manner in which they were employed. C'&d sw one suppose that fifty thousand pounds worth of Is niture could be wanted at Brighton? Out of the £e4.93,000 : Droits of the Admiralty, a balance si Icnly £207,U •• I remained. If the fifty theusend pounds and tweray Oic es sod were deducted from it, then would Le only .ut £140,000; and it wouldleo trebly be urgzd that a considerable sum must be kit to guard against the claims of captors. Thee, how ever, must 'diminish every day. He once more urged the propriety of 4ppiiir.tiLg 4 ;tree. and givingit power to examine pers:ms and send for ..ocumeets,and he trusted that the votes ce his siJe would be numerous. The Right l'l nourable Gentleman contended, that the bringing forward of ,the question its this way was the means of bringing the Crown into disrespect.. They asserted that nothing was so insulting to the ,public as any discussion on the Civil List, and there. tore they stopped the expenditure from being knows. There could be no objection to a Committee Was appointed to examine into all those details; he did net ish to have the Crown degraded in the eyes of Jet. rope ; but the way of paying tradesmen's debts cm like sliewing to all Europe that the Prince Repot was a person not fit to be trusted with the disburse. ment of his owls money, from the indiscretions he had connaitted. If he (Mr. Tierney) had moved to such a Committee, he would be held up es a Jacohis, labouring to vilify the person and character of the Prince. It could not but be remembered that Royal Highness felt extremely sore at the conducts Mr. Pitt, for holding him up, when a young man, as a person net fit to be trusted with money, and the same feeling might well be supposed to indurate him now,. under similar circumstances. (ilear,hear.) On the whole he could only rejoice that steps were likely to be taken for keeping the expenses of the Civil List within bounds; for it had always hip. posed, that whenever Parliament had made liberal advances for this. branch of expenditure, this very liberality had been made a pretence for asking for .something more. But at this moment the county had every claim on the House for putting iii practice all possible economy, `and no means should be left untried to shew the people th it it deserved their con. fidence. lie concluded with declaring that he should not have thought he had discharged his dety, it he had refrained front saying all that had fallen from hint on this subject; and moved o That a • Sprit Committee be appointed to take into consideration the several accounts relating to the Civil List, with pow to send for and examine persons and pipers theme Lord CASTLEREAGH assured the Right lizr. Gentleman who had just made so many personal ar peals to him, that he was not inclined to draw atif favouraVe conclusion from the statements he had made to the House ; for he never beard a more Mi. beral statement, nor ever perceived a snore uafait and illiberal view taken on any subject. It appeared as if the Right Honourable Gentleman had tonned '.design to turn every attempt on the pan of Mieie ters to regulate the Civil List, into an act of extrava gance ; and to lower the dignity of the Crown br perverting and misrepresenting the motives and the conduct of Government. He contended, that It t a i rt )e y e e n x e p m ens y es ot a t t h ten e d M in o g nar o c u h r y R w o ere yai to F e a x m a i m iy i , ne2 compare them with the expenses incurred by the Monarchy of other countries, he would find that our expenses were comparatively small, and that they were no more than were absolutely neceesary to main. rain she dignity and splendour of the Crowe, There ' teas certainly an increase of expenditure auendast oat the Monarchy which could nut be aw ided. 11 il4l O 00 Wt. sow Pic*' t he c t hat o f it was the' aln° A rea the 1 ' ion se* *lnc yeve Gn Coo 0i ye' the ing ow sal "le P e ? leij for C et, th a of in ?Aim ill g Si ti 1 1