Star. — London, England, 1819-05-18 00:00:00

• 144 : 1 / 4 .NS N l / 4 • • „ 111 " 1 / 4 ••• • the way in whirl be hoped the government would stared ;ed but he must protest against .-' , -b -4 : 11 1 1 4. 1411 114se Catholics within one single step of putting their Church in the place of the Establish " - nient. They might then say to the Legislature—Ton have given us our elective franchise, you have edu cated our youth, you have admitted us to civil and military Offices, and to seats in Parliament, but our religion is Daly tolerated—why is it not established ? why is this last act of justice denied to us? Let it be remembered, that this is the hulguage which might be expected to be heard from a numerous and power ful body from the great majority of the pbpulation of that country. This view of the subject presented considerations of so serious a nature as would induce' their Lordsdaips to listen with caution to the. claims ; whit k were addressed to them. Tiie?Bishop of NORWICH felt an attachment to the Church and the - ConstitutiSn as sincere and cor dial as that' of his Reverend Priend could be, though he was so unfortunate as to differ very widely with him on the means by which security was to be given to these Establishments. He would never suppose that the security of the Church was to be promoted by inciting false and fri v olous alarms. He was, =ions to give his testimony against all attempts to raise a clamour among the Ministers of the Church, on 'the pretence that the Establishment would be in danger; were the claims of one-fourth' of the .popula tiivof the British Empire to the enjoyment of evil • rights granted- by Parliament. That a Christian • Church should be endangered by an act of justice, Was a proposition. contrary to the great maxim of the religicin Of - Cttitir, namely— r " Whatsoever you iiould that &hers do to you, even so do unto them." Amidst all the dankly, Which had been raised, he bid 'beard no solid Objection 'against the measure de manded by the Roman Catholics. rThe British Con stitution was best to be supported by carrying into full ptactice the liberality of its principles. The broader the foundation, the .more secure would be the 'superstructure. Now, when every argument hitherto urged against the Catholic Claims had been triump h antly answered, their Lordships were told that this acknowledgment of a foreign supremacy was aninsurraountab4 bar to the concession deman de3 by the Petitioners. He should not trouble their Lordships by eateriog into any details of the con struction put upon the - Oath of Supremacy b y Arch bishop Cranmer and others : It was suflicientfor him to observe, that the Catholics in general were ready to take the Oath in its present form, with a slight addition, which would render it equally binding, while the change was unexceptionable. The present form of the Oath dechired, that the person taking it denied the right of any Prince, Potentate, or Power, to exercise authority in this country, either ecclesias tical or civil. The addition proposed was to this ef fect—:" la so far as-the same may interfere with the allegiance due by subjects to their lawful Sovereign." This, he thought, must prove perfectly satisfactory. At all events, things could Rot long go on as till, were. 'ln the present state cf knowledge and of pus lic opinion, so disgraceful an anomaly as the ezelu shin of 4,Q00,000. of people .from the privileges and right's of the Constitution, merely on account of their conscientious adherence to religious principles, could not Wlg exit. 'Phis -anomaly could the less be de fended in the case of the Roman Catholics, as it ex hibited against them a cruel and unjust partiality, to sihich no other sect of Dissenters from the Estab- , li.hed Church was subject, and. that too merely on' acciient of the Oath of Supremacy, which other sects werwbouud in conscience to reject as well as them. There was no denial of civil privileges to the mem bers of the Church of Scotland. "It was admitted on all hands, that there was not a better set of men in the • British dominions than the adherents of that Church. more attached to the Constitution. more loyal in their principles, and more submissive in their ' conduct; and yet they contended that his Majesty had no authority in spiritual matters, and that all spiritual authority was vested exclusively in the Kirk. They maintained as a tenet of their creed, as an ar.. title of faith, that the Civil Magistrate never 114 1 , and never could have any supreinacyavliatever in 41-1 ritual or ecclesiastical matter. ; but he would ask' their' Lordships, were these excellent persons who composed the Scotch Church less deserving of poll. tical confidence, less attached to the principles of our civil Constitution,.or less firm in their allegiance to the Ring, than the members of the Church of England ? No ; their fidelity and attachment to the House of Brunswick had been conspicuous fea tures in their character, and their loyal conduct, joined to all the other qualities of good subjects, had gained them a safe admission to all civil employ ments of the State. Here, perhaps, he should be told, that although the Church of .Sciatland did not own the King's supremacy in spiritUal -matters, it differed from the Church of Rome in this respect, that it acknowledged no foreign jurisdiction. But even this distinction did not exist between the Roman Catholics and another sect, which, refusing like them, to take the oath of supremacy, could not yet be ex cluded from the privileges which they we:e denied. He alluded to the Moravians, whqAcknowledged the authority of a foreign bishop, and who therefore presented a case in point. The venerable Priest sit ting at Rome did not claim a more absolute domi nion over the faith of his adherents than the Mora vian bishop did over those who followed his system. Yet we never thought of inquiring into the tenets of this sect for the purpose of refusing them political privileges. The progress of-knowledge had been of late . attended with its inseparable associate, liberality of sentiment ; it had softened religious into'erance, and introduced Christian candour instead of sectarian bigotry. Its influence on the question now before the House was evident—it had removed the anti quated prejudices of rulers and people. He (the Bi shop of Norwich) professed himself no advocate of indiscriniinite innovation or precipitate change ; but he professed himself equally hostile to that Moderate obstinacy that opposed itself to any alteratinoof the law, however salutary, or any accornmodation of our Sysiem to times end 'circumstances, however rte-' ce p siar • hi this changeable ;cent of human life, we could not with safety remain stationary, and ought. to !jam liberality from the age in‘which we lived. haves the chity of the House to let England cease, from this dirt forward, to be the only country in Eu rope where intolerance was established by law, where religions opiniOn excluded from civil office, where emu were obliged to surrender their rights- for the sake of theft conscience, and where an appeal was made against equal privileges to Statutes which bad been occasioned by inventions and plots of the demons of Wickedness in a erstitious age. Since that time, the Catholics had gifea up the abo minable doctrines of which they wee accused, and on which the laws against them were founded. Would any man in his senses now assert that they maintained the principles which at first occasioned their exclu sion from office; and if they did not, why continue , the Statutesrserpetuated that exclusion ? rear)! The Bishop th , ETERBOROUGH shewe , from the general teaour of the Petitions before the House,' it sr 1d appear that a portion of their fellow-subjects to to suffer for their religion, than which . an ' ' could not be more unfounded or repre hensible. It was not on account of any abstract opi. nions that Roman Catholics might entertain, that the remaining exclusions were continued, but because principles, abstract in themselves, were coupled with crthevs which were not so, and were connected with serious f,olitieal considerations. These combined, tended to render it impossible that such men could bear the same allegiance to his Majesty King George, as those whose allegiance centered in that Sovereign alone. It followed of necessity, that the members of the Church of Rome ought sot to be admitted to an equal participation of power with those of the Esta blished Chuych, as the former evidently bore a di vided allegiance. Considering this great question with reference to the Established Church, the Peti tioners now only asked for political power. Yet, a concession of their claims must ultimately place it in a state of great danger ; and the more so, when it was remembered, that the desires of human nature increased with the facility of obtaining them. In this view, the attainment of Ecclesiastical,power should be regarded as eventually a part of their object.— The Jesuits were always active instruments in the extension of the Papal authority ; and it should be ,borne in mind, that their Order was restored by the present. Pope. The ambitious views of the Roman Church were well known, and the ('nu nett of Trent had cleaned that Church to be distress of all Fo reign Countries ; of course, England must be in chided in the contentplatikm. The ascendancy or security of the. Protestant Church must be of short duration, whenever means -were, allowed to Roman Catholics for undermining or shaking its foundation, or rather, deeming a Protestant Church secure with a Papal Establishment. The Earl of ROSEBERRY, in a maiden speech, supported the motion. Ile said, that the question now was, whether the Catholics of Iteland were to be placed in that situation to which they were en titled by Nature, and the Constitution, or were to be for ever excluded from places of civil trust and power ? Ile wondered, after late experience, how any doubt could for a moment be entertained of their allegiance. They served their conntry, both at home and abroad, with a real that should remove every apprehension, as to their attachment to the Consti tution. In the event of another war, when their !Mr vices. might again he required, it would be politic, putting ;I! considerations of justice out of the case, to treat them so that they could feel no unss illingness to serve again. As to the tenets and principles at tributed to them, of keeping no faith with' heretics, of not -being bound by oaths, they appeared to him quite ridiculous, and were completely disproved by their conduct. They were too enlightened a body to be influenced by any such doctrines.. He would not enter into the arguments so frequently, and so ably urged in their support. Their Lordships were; already familiar with them, and it was not in his power to add any thing to their strength. He would grant the Catholics what they required, not because they demanded it, but because he felt confident, that it was the best policy. and that nothing could tend more to strengthen the Constitution both in Church i and State. Lord DE DI:NSTANVILLE opposed the motion.', If he fel.t perfectly satisfied that the participation of privileges claimed by the Catholics would have no other effect than to place some of them in situations of civil trust, he might be disposed to acquiesce in it. This, liqwever, he greatly apprehended would not be the case. At the same time that he opposed any farther concession to them, he thought that all the pr vile prant.d to the Irish Catholics, should be extended to the English also. The LORD CHANT EL'.OR then left the wool sack to address their L. rds tips. He commented on the speech of the Earl f D moughmore, and inform ed the House, that if the N.shlc Lord would tell them what plan he intended to propose in the Committee, and what defences he intended to erect for the secu rity of the Constitution, in the place of those which he was endeavouring to throw down, he for one would have no objection to grant the Noble Lord the I Committee which he required. But speaking with the prejudice of an English Lawyer, loving the Con stitution upon principles of law, and yet at the same time being as warm a friend to toleration as.any man in the House, he would ask, what security by oath could the Catholics give, which could reconcile the King's supremacy in thin.s temporal, with the Pope's supremacy in things ecclesiastical He thought that they could give none ; and, entertaining such thoughts, l he felt it his duty to call upon their Lordships to con sider, what plan there was that Parliament could adopt consistently with the safety of the Constitution, out of all the plans which had been proposed to their notice since the commencement of these discussions. To him it appeared that none of them were practica ble ; because, if we were to believe the recorded his tory of the country, from the year 1660 to 1688, it would be seen how systematically the Roman Catho lics pursued the accomplishment of their own objects, and the destruction of the National Church, through every obstacle and every difficulty. There might be some individuals who supposed that the tenets which the Catholics held at that time were not. the tenets• which they hold now, and who, under that Supposi tion, deem the continuance of the disqualifications imposed upon them as' one of the most scandalous l impositions that ever was inflicted on man; but with those individuals he could t l y no means agree, inas; much as there was no proof, either direct or indirect, of any change having occurred in the religious prin ciples of the Roman Catholics. The question, he re peated it, was,. whether the House would stand by that Constitution, which had secured the most ample personal liberty to every individual who lived under tt, or whether they would recur to that Constifutign under which their ancestors had lived. priabzus.tei = s hould not be surprised if a theie disqualifications being thing"turPrises I to-morrow. -west passage were d i sc ove red times," continued the Noble en L ac o t ed ed . ? " V' w . h e ie liv h e n i o n - 1 , immediately follow the former discovery : d any t notat desideratum b e thif rthrough the g discovery hso man oafsbtle ages, s l .h o f? n u l id ttshhuid:le; could surprise me, I should be surprise a hearingbament withoutchat an y t required. Such a proposition has, however, Lordships taking ni an c a t n h the i oaths i either n which Hou se v o b e u y: l a woeef been arc " se r s r h io a u li sl b y n m d a a i m nt o a n in g ed th : e brit votes any this oefveynoinugr any person received, who has not taken the tL°l l7 . e r ce . o s t s e a l ry Posf doaths,utytoyyoouu yourselves Lord. then said, that treating this cubiect as a Law cmoeu.nfotrrya..,derTheliectNioonholef t s t a o n i d m c the h th ye a r t , ( al an i d L h a e wy w e Ls awme,arere bad d t a po to t b i.c l i e: n izra th h ou a g d h sa a i l d i tpoLoliutidcitansughstveerr)Lbehecommuste o a b c se co rv m e p , l th ish a e t d th L e a l s ae v ygoers'lge— of th,statute law, derived from the common law, was, .0 The Church of Etgland is free," or in other words, that she owes obedience to none but Goo. Several writers upon law had said, that when the Roman Catholic Religion was the Religion of the' country, the country had contained men, whose va lour had been the admiration of the world, whose talents had rendered us glorious in the eyes of other nations, and whose virtues would have rendered them an ornament to the proudest era of either Greek or Roman story : he should be the last man in the world to cor.tradict the truth of this statement? but he could not help asking after he had made it, whether these illustrious characters, with all their prowess, virtues, and talent, did or could rescue their country men from the slavery in which Catholicism had im mersed them? Ecclesiastical usurpation generally terminated in civil tin arm y—(Lured tries corhear,hear, from the Minist, rift! tenches ; re.ccheed also, rons the OppoSition benches). I say hear too," continued the Noble Lord, for 11 , ish your Lordships to hear *chat I say now, as I shall not long be able to ad dress either this or any other assembly." It had been said that by the Act of Union with Scotland, a Church bac) been recognized and established which did not acknowledge the King as its head ; he wished to know how this argument applied to the case be fore them : the Church of Scodand, it was tree, did not acknowledge the King as its superior, but then, it did not, as the Catholics do, acknowledge another potentate, and that potentate a foreigner, its superior in his stead. The Constitution, which ensured these privileges to us all, when it acknowledged the right of every man who acknowledged it to places of trust, power, and emolument, did not acknowledge the right of any man to them, Who.did not acknowledge. its full authority. Before he quitted this part of the subject, he should wish their Lordships to consider again the nature of the Constitution: there were, in , deed, some who thonght that a better might be de vised, but it was needless for him to say that he was not of their number ; his persuasion arising from an attentive perusal of every record that had passed be tween the House of Commons, the House of Peers, and the Sovereigns, was, that the best security . for the Church and for liberty was, that the one should be maintained by the authority of the State, and the other by a toleration as free as is consistent with the safety of the community. If be were a supporter of 'the Catholic claims, he "should be sorry to urge any argument in favour of them which was. derived from the numbers of those who urged them. If their num bers were great, that was no to concede them if tbey,were unfmnded; if. their numbers were small, no argument to refuse them, if they dere just. lie had looked upon this subject with all the anxiety which it demanded ; and in his investigations had found that though certain canons, as adverse to the spirit of Religion as they were to the temper of the times, had been renounced by individuals, they had not been renounced by the Church of Rome. Our ancestors had always connected together the idea of popery and slavery, and he could not look upon them without viewing them in a similar light. Entertain ing, therefore, the sentiments which he most consci entiously did on this subject, he should be guilty of 'abandoning his duty to t ie Constitution, if he did not give his decided vote against the Noble Lord's mo tion, and resist any concession to the Roman Catho lics, while the Church of Rome had not renounced the principles which occasioned the laws of which they now complained. When they would renounce those principle, he should be for conceding every pos4ibie boon r them: but now he most conscienti ously opposed every concession. He saw nothing to induce him to believe that. the Roman Catholics were changed, and therefore, he never could give way to their pretensions or claims—(Neer, hear, hear). Earl GREY did net feel himself qualified to argue on points of law with the Noble and Learned Lord. But, as points of law had now arisen, k was his duty to argue them as well as he could. The Noble Lord had said, the Constitution of this country was wholly Protestant, and therefore the proposition of this night was inadmissible. This doctrine, if well founded, would put an end at once to the question ; but with all due deference and respect to the Noble Lord, he must deny positively the position. He most readily granted, that our Establishment, as formed at the Revolution, was fundamentally Protestant. We were, by the Act of Settlement, to have a Pi otestant King, and we had contingent securities, collateral and in cidental, arising out of the circumstances of the times. These circumstances remained no longer in existence, and therefore the contingent and subsidiary securities might now he removed, though the funda mental. part or principle of the P r ot estant Th rone might remain. Triennial Parliatnelts was one of the collateral and subsidiary securities then. nacted, yet that Act was in the reign of George I. repealed . Would the Noble Lord argue that even.the impor tant right of Petition might not, under certain cir curnstances, be, for a time, suspended; or would the Noblee.nd Learned Lord, who, with his Majesty's Ministtivs, had suspendecisorne'of the dearest rights of wev te a ' . Pestooppltoe, further y the th r a p t: o P e ar .et 4ilinen ng ? t The was N n o o bl v e sa it l theti•tiroceeded to take a review. of. the several Acts of ?zrliament passed • egainet - the Catholics, corn- IneltiVith 4 14 tb,„ rPant4l Cc* . the early-- part t rwtri whlrd'aras tollewed .AllePtit the Duke om'esik,l - thb occesiqtr tbeielsich thettfititT4Micinger exisfid, 4ie . 7l:ci - or tilt go*, pt . 'aiii<fickeilha b9lll ti. . iat J:F" • Parliament. But this Act, e , the Noble and Learned Lori e measure, arose, as was now ack t e,, heats and ferments occasioned Next, in the reign of Ceerre I. prohibithlg Cathoics front vot; Parliament ; but at thi time the sion trembled, and the countiv anxious to restore the exiled heril was wholly extinct ; and he wont Lord, did he really believe that ii l.tws were lepealed, there weell Protestant Eitablishment being i the succession of the Prince next being interrupted ? lle inention..t; laws, shew that the motives existed, and theretOre that they be repealed. 1k would a s k t i e had declared he had read and Locke's Letters, which declared, the Catholic Religion one not that it Was a crime to be punishe Learned L3rd had declared he di with Mr. Locke. Ile v:ished to Learned Lord if he agreed with Catholics held no faith with hem sidered Sovereiens excennnunic. letv:ng tinfeited their crowns, having a claim to the ttllegiatu The Noble and Learned Lord saii so much as this to the Catholics, sider the Cath -he disclaimer Cf enough. What fuiisr disci timer Learned Lord have beyond the lies, in the oath they were tea e, contained in the declaratioa To I:im (Earl Gre s ) these disclaii satisfactory. On the whole, I.e laws passed to exclude Catlinhs, lived the cii carnstances in w they onght to he repealed, as a the motion ..f his - Noble Friend st The Noble Lord then referre.l to wards, previous to the It 2:,:rn:t; prove that the subject, though p;- legiance to the Pope, never fai: mandate cf their Sovereign. 1' waeds had even declared himself with the Pope ; a plain proif sions on the score of his sehi.. the reign of Eliza :eta, p,sed to Philip of Spaia, the its .t Sovereign ,f the day, z•ei pal Throne, her Cethelie , and faittlaily attached to her. _ Learned Lord had. n:ltitled to the ertislos of I. with Ireland, and Catholics were l'v that U. excluded. -Now, true it was. isy that Voieti P: testant Religion le:ts to he considired 1e ::.e et I:disked religion of the country ; btu there eas r t e ; single v..orsf intimating That the esclusina oldie Cr tholics was to be permanent. Oa the cOntetry. f.e fourth - article cf the 171.:on prov;iled certain t-s:,, which were *it) cont tine ire forne until Pariiiitrent meted otherwise. This shewed that the pertains aid carried the Union hat' other o!jecti in view ; and tint they had further objects in view, appeared plate} afterwards ; for, being un.tble ;to miry these nee stems, they soon afterwards found it necessar y tort. tire from office —(Near, hctir.)—Up aadrtcer grounds, he contended that the Catholics c: aid act be deprived of their eligibility to hell civil nice, but by an act of the most glaring impalicy art! rr justice ; by doing which we disunited the whole hod of Catholics fioni us—rendered them dissatisfied ail discontented, and ready to take advantage cif any ep• portunity which our weakness or our ditiictilties might afford them ; and this the Niible and Leirned Lord called supporting the Establishment in Chun' and State ! and this too at a period when, by our Inn. taken policy, we had raised up for ourselves power: lot opponents in Russia and America ; when France was gradually recovering her strengtla; arida: a pe riod when our finances were ruined—when we la boured under an excessive load of taxation, and our revenue was not equal to . the payment of the irterest . of the National Debt and the expenses cf. the Pub:4 Establishment. w!:f11 0 !:e s ► , z,LI:LS f' Lord LIVERPOOL denied that the object of the Catholics on this occasion was of a minor &scrip tion. In ISI3, a Bill was brought into the other House of Parliament, the object of which wag to give the Catholics eligibility to office. In the course of its progress, however, exceptions were made to 10.. r or five high offices of State. What was the conduct adopted on this occasion by those who proposed ix Bill and supported it? why, that they •,:ithdrew the Bill, the supporters of it. being determined if thty could not have all they would have nothing. The Noble Lord contended, that the Establishment by the Constitution was fundamentally Protestant, Ard that the King must be a Protestant. How then war we to reconcile this with the principle of the present Nlerion, by which we should be subjected to see a Vrotestant King with Catholic confidential a.hise:s 2 The fundamental principle of the Constitution W l !f that the King and Parliament should be Protestant. We were ignorant what dangers might follow our acts. Twenty years before the Revolution, in tae reign of Charles the First, would any one have cit.- dited the assertion, that at the distance of 9.0 vats from that period the Puritans would overturn the Throne and the Established Church ? cr whc, in the reign of Charles the Second, would have given creda to a tale of what was to take place, and did tak e take place, in the reign ef his successor? Vwitn re spect to the disabilities of the Cathelics, they atosc out of the act of the Catholics therns.;:slves, who place themselves in a situation to be partal - ers of 2.. the advantages of the State. They paid ad" rtt allegiance to the Crown, and were riot entitled to the indulgences enjcyed by these who proicsse. ; •• complete and unqualified obedience. But the Cam, lies were. not singular in this respect. The raimsq-civ and respectable body of Quakers and other nsser.:rs were, in- consequence of their religious serafies• ea eluded front many places of trust. Whea th.e t tholics cf Ireland were admitted to the eset.ise their elective franchise, they were grant:ed.% dresses of acknowledgment w.re t:resentca tr., every county in Ireland to the Lord Lteittc.ti.t. which not the most distant allusion was mad: tor titer concessions.; yet the nest t Session_ did 11 , 1 over without further application an , i . sion, and he believed if all, they riow ,granted, it would only encourage then, tc. ar:!icr 4 , . ~ . , ,i ,1 t 11 1 i f ; 11 I. i . ! li - .mug 1 .. ,• I ; " • • ~• • • kit !. • t: . ft.,, •‘. i .k , : 4 1•••i, , • • . • ,„ id :CT ?}I! ...• Le NO 1 . -PI 1 7 ; 4 . • to ' ed. "Ili . t rs• t, C Mr. I. "tics ; • ,; 4 'AVM h •!.e It 4 ice cf !id l• yt 1/li".c t ti ti..(* .r.4. !) tat r, , h I irately .1; , • • consi 'cntsl 5.,, S. Itavin'y • • ~•: they had . 4 'CAT t 1,..) 3 i the . ...me-. rofessiag seir, , a .1 , ied to • Tha or.e icu 'to e he ha.i ;), •'... t;' a'ho i sst .e ;► itti.der • c)... :Ls r. The e ' 44 ' the urt:slcf (4 : U., s were t'ti ;: s .• that I: R l _ nsidireh as :'.e ; b•it there •:•. as r.:l: e exclusion of the C.e On the contrary. -ovish-fd certain ;et:, : nr.til Pittiiatrenz that the pet t on ) , % r id cts in view ; aaltb apreures; pla:r.y to car r; those mei- nd it r. ,, cestzry tore. • Up:on :::tese 33.1 ct..e: Catholics could nut to hell civil ing art! ra• sited the chose hcdy them dissatisfied ai:d advantage of any eps i or our difficulties e •ble and Learned blishmeut in Chur:b od when, by our !Lis- for ourselves power: aerica ; when France rength ; and at a re- uined—when •ae a- -1 of taxation., anh our a yment of the ir terra tpenses ef. the Pub . .x .hat the object of the of a mii,or descri tight into the other or which was zo give '• In the course of is were made to !oar 'hat was the conduct )se who proposed it they •,:ithdrew the determined if they have nothing. 'lle to Establishment by tally Protestant, .rd :ant. how then evert nciple of the present ie subjected to see a ionficiential aisise:s? ihe Constitution sva , , s_ _ L. art. 1) 0 ? r y ! • 4 • ; V • A