Star. — London, England, 1816-03-12 00:00:00

were likely to agree, than defer the consideration tin.' tilt ,ey mieht probably differ. A ter a few welds from Lord Milton. and Lord, F 1; m anors, L ,d CASTLEREAGH said, the question was sot n ow whether you would reduce the number of ton the a mount of their pecuniary support ow l,' pledge the House to a too localized view o f the subjoct, by calling for a subdivision of their anus on the whole details of the establishments. .After a few words from Messrs. Tierney, Wynn, and Lard Castlereagh, in explanation, the Gallery ens c leared for a division on Mr. Wynn's Motion,l but o n our re-admission we understood no division bad ta ken place, and that the motion was in substance erre d to. The House thee resolved itself into the Com mittee Lou t PALMERSTON then proposed the first. R ev iution, that a sum of 0385.076 9s. 61 be given for t h e s upport of the household troops from Decem ber 1815 to December 1816. Mr. CA LCRAFT denied that any defence bad b een made oot to justify this enormous establishment. Valet necessity was there for a larger force than ex isted in 1791, when three regiments were found suf. eo s sit for all purposes of duty in • the metropolis ? Ile would propose, that the Household Cavalry, which were 1,744 in number„ be reduced one half, t hey would then remain stronger than at the former period. The Foot Guards were of no use but for pa- rade, there were none now at Chatham, nor any ne. cessity for a barrack force there in time of peace.— In 1791, 3,765 men sras the strength of this body: there were now 8,100. He would propose, that they be reduced one half, both in number of men and amount of expense—the establishment would then stand at 4.05 0 men, and the amount £1 92,638 4s. 9J. Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that the Ho. pourable Member had not stated the case in a pro per manner, even with a view to effect his own.pur. pose. 'There were two questions—one was, as to the nu mtsOr of men to be maintained—and the other, as to the pecuniary branch of the establishment. Now the Honourable Member wanted not only to reduce the amount, but the gross number of the army, al though the House had actitally decided upon the lat ter proposition. (Hear, hear.) As to the Guards, it was not usual to denominate them household troops ; and so far from their b•iing kept up for purposes of parade, one-fourth of them onre now actually serving in France. (Hear, hear.) Tne Household Cavalry, so tar from being parade troops, were admitted to be the most effective in the service. Even in point of economy, there would be no advantage in this reduc tion ; for, independent of the loss of military effi ciency that would follow the &version of such men, the great expense of providing inexperienced substi. totes would tar outweigh the proposed pecuniary ba lance. The country would, according to this system, be disbanding men who cost from seso to .ElOO nun to bring them to their present state of tope: ior discipline; and, besides paying tho becessary pen sinus to the disbanded men, they would have to raise peasants by a high bounty, to supply their places.— He also maintained that the state of 1791 was the pro. per criterion fur the present establiOiment. The town duty had since greatly increased. 'lhe Honourable Gentleman had also alluded to Chatham ; but he, from his residence in that neighbourhood, should have known that the dock yards and tortitications required a force of nearly one thousand men. If the Honou rable Gentleman's object was to reduce the number of men on the establishment, he was about to fly in the face of a PArliamentery grant already admitted— and if his object vfere to reduce the expense of the l estimate, he (Lord Castlereagh) was prepared to thew that the reverse of economy would be he con. equence of such a step. The difference between the ordinary cavalry and the household corps, in point of expense, did not amount in the main to more than t 27,000 ; and of this a reduction was contemplated by the Honourable Member, to restrict it to one•half, tothat a saving of £3!i,000 only would ari..e out of the measure. The t ence o expense between the some number of dragoons and the lieu c ivalry, s 4 those of the ordinary, was in the rate of 4:33,000 VI CHAN/ Now when this redaction was to be famed by the sale of the dragoon hoists, which Would be unfit for the lighter troops, to whom the day most devolve, it. would be practically found to loons the reverse of economy in its principle. (Hear, fir.) Mr. CALCRAFT, in reply, observed, that he ll'ef saw the Noble Lord, even in his constant duty of defending almost all questions, so driven for an ar gument as he was to- n i g ht. His speech went against a. reduction. (Ilear.) as Will you (said the Noble Lord) disband those men that have so gloriously ser ved, and sell those fine hones ?" Yes, he (Mr. Cal• nth) "mild answer, and becatfse the object for which tiny were embodied had been capered into full effect by the return of a general peace. ( Hear, hear.) It I t o* apreared tha t t wo thouvand of the Guards were to in France. This alteration in their disPo- I took place since the question was agitated in that hiv e • • (dear, hear.) The Hon. Member conclu ded. hy enforcin g t h e p r i nc iple o f economy its the most ti one details of the expenditure. Lord PALMERS lON maintained, that the main pation was, whether the household troops should dnninished, for the purpose of introducing less ex. Noise on es ? Now, it had been clearly thew.' by Noble Friend, that no diminution of. expense coulli hGuartepds l.ice by this al tera tion. On the subject of the being countermanded in their return from France, he had only to say, that this arose front an error rc e of his own, an d t h at no a lteration had taken in the order of their first destination. The Noble L:rd then denied that the Guards were considered as stationary parade force—they had been sent to Ire and we r e • still held dispos able for any particular This mode of treating these men reminded hiyear t h e t i anecdote, that when the Guards; in the 1 1 , 1 _,_ 17 _,L, had marched from London to meet the ,°„e r s a , 7 tae , peopl e pressed round themoexclaiming— ,P. a e Cionds, pillars of the. State 1" 44 Yes, (re. .v , :d shrewd soldier) we are pillars of the State, that t h e rebels CI are at your door, but when our atwas rebe e, not wanted, we were catterpillors of the %.• (4 lauh.) L a s% hi lOT 111./EN protested against 'the Noble it ' 4r d', n u o rguloe . a rgume nt, that b e cause a saving was trifling its tit id ea unt, it our ht :lot to b e ma de. He ridiculed ca of kee • • • I to.caose they were efffee.! ;'. ()l t the poo l s to E t . w0‘,,, 43 ' t. f future war. Arta stateO, goo; wlien said a difference resp„ et erS4n t id ig no. leen ma. ;,0 ell :Quz a I a Corn. gratittd ea s t,. Siip p y ri t Ye.ir a Gent,t e . :/orcory litte e. to srr i i ng dacrtut Putpote e iirl ise e :e3J r voLl c f ;, Ailiry of try n in d e ,fled ti,a4 le he Lad i answer ! Innlines ten sive i n le Hon e Question species of variou lat even teeing to osed. bet ere ct sufficirat the 12Inde !Ilik1111.:. Id an :II redo:. Qece/y with I=i9 civet! e.e e roczt was 64 Using mcOe redatnori and then :outing to if he suai .ord mein of Eq. wtll it reAson LO Greix Bri. s fl V) r E.g; ie obi Atte4 slsmetst stead of its r it at s:s bs.:l nit ita Irtims,4 had hex: , i craary I( s Id couter:- use mid e psaramwict An WO 01 sure it %VAS estit!ks'i• zonet (Sr on for c'e raS anE"' s , telly IA 0 7 11. ti hetls Di 1:4:1401 c,,,l)cerved a 6ide of lba si.lt. C -,:;on V do 6 "li tr. r lt! 1,1 Intlllas lbe i 4tlgi ng c-nri".o import 1, r:cecj. st • •1!' )e an t Le AVOttAl ,eti h f IC(, suand As lather a force fur eq u3lly e malts ct sites of the 'ardlice of 1 r, a n d chef ; when tbel of 27,000 had arisen in the ionipara . tiveeapense et' the household troops, and those of the line, be had drawn his calculation from the charge of two regi ments of dragoons (General Tarleton's and another) which were composed of 1863 men, the total charge of whom was £77,618. - Now those corps (the house hold-ones) although their number was 120 less,'cost ‘1119,554. (Hear.) Lord CASTLEREAGH explained the manner in which be had made his calculation, and said that the inaccuracy was but in the difference between 27,000 and £37,000. (Hear, hear.) Mr. FREEMANTLE referred to one specific fact. The expense of a division of the Guards, in number 2221, cost £75,863, and the Duke of Kent's eosin, in number 2013, cost only £59,496. Mr. BROUGHAM said, that though he had on a former occasion stated his opinion upon the esti mates generally, yet he was then-anxious to give it on them in detail, as a defiante had been given to Gentlemen oa his side to go into such examination. He accepted the gauntlet which had been thrown. down, and he believed that the more minutely the House examined the several items, the more objec tionable they should, find them.—(Hear, hear )-:.He objected, in the first instance, to the great number of guards, which were intended to be kept up, and even to the new-fangled French name of household troops, which had been given them. Had the Noble Lord made out a case to the House, to prove the necessity of raising the number of those guards to mote thanl double what it was in 1791 ? such a case had been proved to the House, he (Mr. Broneham) should not have opposed the motion. But the fact was, that with all the anxiety evinced by the Noble Lord (Cas tlereagh) and his friends to go into the examination of the estimates, item by item, they bad failed in producing any one proof of the necessity of the in crease which had been made. The House had ad vanced to the present stage of the debate, and no one allegation had been made to show this necessity. It had indeed been said that '2400 of them were to he kept up in Fraece, but allowing this, there were till 7,600 to be accounted tor. What proof had the Noble Lord given that the increase of even 3,600 men in the establishment since Mr. Pi:t's time wan necessary ? He (Mr. Brougham) wished to be in formed, what had happened since that period to ren der The number of guards nearly double what it was then ? Eitgl mud was at present more peaceable than it was in 1792. At the Litter period, though the people were not in rebellion, yet the country was every day assailed with reports of plots and d;tnge. roux Addresses and votes of the House agreed in staliag, that some public danger did exist, and yet with all these threatening appearances, Mr. Pitt did not think it necessary to propose a greater force in t•.e guards than 4000 men —Wear, hear, hear. i s —What, he would ask, did the Noble Lord see in the s:.:te of the metropoli. at the present day, to make a force nearly double that number (not count ing the number by the tr uants to be left in France), necessity? The people of London were never at any lo: met period more obedient to the laws, or ,Were peaceable, than at the present moment. His Ho. nnutabie and Learned Friend the Attorney-General, whom he then saw iu his place, could. attest this, for be (Mr. Brougham) believed that that Honourable and Learned Gen:kman, had pot, for the last two ye a-s, resorted to an ex ojAQ information. There sva now no Jacobinism, even the very word had scarcely been mentioned in the House for the last five or six years. What= then was this danger to come front, which should render the proposed force necessary ? But he much feared that it was not nierely to keep the peace of the metropolis that this force of guards was kept up. Their was more of empty sheo and p trade in it than rell necessity. It was a mickery to talk ut internal d tng x in the present state of the country. Th' N. 1),. Lord (Castlereagh) driven out of the argument of necessity, had recourse to ano ther, and raid that those troops bad distinguished themselves in the 'Ate campaigns. lie (Mr. B.) e. , 0,11 I ask, - which of our troop.; had. not done so ? The same arganfvni might, it it were of any force, be ur, ; (..1 agaiw•t the disbanding of a single soldier, for the/ had all distinguishea themselves most glo riously—(!.l,4r, hear,).- and tIn ! u,(11 some of them had hot the same opportuni6es of making themselves conFpi(mous as (idlers, who from their situations in particular actions had borne the great pressure of the enemy, yet it did not follow that they were less brave, or had I , ls claim to be kept up. It would be unjust and dangerous to say to any of those troops, •( You must be disbanded, because you have - not dis tingutshed yourself as much as others." Such lan gu:ige he held to be dangerous and unconstitutional. It wouli, in the mind of the soldier, associate the idea of his being disbanded with that of his being disgraces'..— (Hear, hear,)—He could never assent to such 41: :etine as that which the argument of the Net io Lrad seemed to imply. He could not consent .to keep avy munt,er of troops on foot, for no other . reason this:: gnat tiey had distinguished themselves When their scrvices were necessary. He could not agree with the is.oble Lord in letting it be thought for an instant that soldiers disgraced themselves by becomi::g cilia: ns.—(Hear, hear.) —He would speak the language el the Constitution, and would say to the soldier, " You have faithfully performed that duty for which you were called forth ; return now, and be attain a citizen,"—(Hear, hear.)—This was the language GI the Constitution, and if the time was passed when such language would be held in that House, he soil hoped, that out of it, no one would dare to say that a soldier was degraded by be coming a citizen.—(Hear, hear.)— It bad been said by some Gentlemen on the other side—" Is this a I faiureturn for the services of these troops, that when you no longer want their exertions, you shall turn them adrift and suffer them to become scavengers ?" He (Mr. Brougham) wished no such thins. He did not wish to see them unrewarded for their services,, but he could not for a moment think that they would be degraded .by returning to that state of society from which they should not have been called in the first instance, but by necessity.— (Hear, hear.)—The, Honourable and Learned Gentleman then contended, that in an economical point of view, troops ,'f the line should be substituted for a great portion of these guarder, for that comparing the expense of 2000 guards with that of 2000 of the line, the balance Would be upwards of ittlo,ooo against the former, and tho Ugh the saving would be but small, yet in the present state of the country, no possible reduction of expense should be thought too sm a ll to be attended to. (Hear, hear). He also contended that the Committee had a right to correct the vote of a former evening, if they con ceived that thephad then v..ted too mneh, and though they could not do so directly by reducing the number of men then agreed to, they might do it by not tasting a sum sußicient for their support. The Committee were no more precluded from the : ct e rrection of their former vote in such a way than the House would be from 'rejecting a Bill in its third reading, all the par ticulars of which they liad sanctioned in its preceding stages—(Near, hear.) The - Honourable and Learned Gentleman concluded, amidst loud cries of hear, by repeating his former argument, that there existed at present no greater a necessity for the proposed num• ber of Guards than there did in 1792, and that the only end which their existence to so large an amount could asswer was the gratification of a childish and contemptible passion for military parade ; childish it might be called, though not altogether contemptible when its dangerous tendency was considered. Mr. W. WELLESLEY POLE defended the pro posed Establishment, which he said was nit intended as a permanent Peace Establishment. He w.:s glad to find that in the lengthened time to which the dis cussions on the Estimate; had been protracted, no , Gentleman on the other side had charged his Ma jesty's Ministers with a design to overturn the Con stitution. He also rejoiced at one effect which would result from this protracted discussion, sand that was, the opinion which the country would form of the op. position which was made to those Estimates. They • had been opposed is limine by some Gentlemen, who afterwards, when they came to the Committee, toek link or no part in the discussion, and of those who did stt, no two were agreed as to the Amendments • Proposed. The country would appreciate: such one. sition, and would recollect that it was mark by those men who had prognosticated, the destrection, of that brave army which so lately conTiere.l the tyrant of France, by those men who wished to make, peace with Napoleon Bonaperte in l 8 4. The country would recollect th it these Est ;matt s were proposed by those Ministers who leel seemed to it every itn poi tent possession, which the merchant, or the soldier 11 could desire, in any part of the werld. Mr. W. WYNNE observed, that the Right Hon. Gentleman who just sat down, was anxious to turn the attention of the public nn the Gentlemen at his (the Opposition) side of the House, and he (Mr. Wynne) was nut surprizcd at it, foe he believed that the Right Honourable Gentleman and those who acted with him, would be anxious to turn it to any subject but themselves—( Hear, hear, nerd a laugh).— Mr. Wynne then defended the necessity of the pro posed reduction in the Guards, and contented that the saving, though small, which might thereby be tna.le, should by no means be considered contemptible. General LOFTUS stated the !treat services of the Guards, from the time of the American war down to the present. Even on the home duty at this mo ment, the men were in bed but one night out of three. It was one of the most efficient and gallant corps in the service, and had been sent every where that active service was to he performed. He would ask, were these men to he thrown upon the public ? ' Mr. BROUGHAM, in explanation, said, he was not so ignorant as to und.r value their service,.. But he would remind the Henottrable General of a feet. Lord Nelson's ship, the Vi.ory, in which that great commander had fought genie of his most &Ain eilistied battles, :and in whieh he had leilen, was now laid up in ordinary, and the crew turned adrift.— (Thar,hear, from the Opitcgitiop). Mr. TIEKNEY slid, on the present Vote it was most material thit they should bear in mind that the description of force they were now discussing had nothing to d' with the relief of the Colonial garrisons —the troops they were new discussiug were kept up only for the splendour of the Court, and the duty of the Metropolis.--(Hear, hear.) —The Noble Lord i could not say that the necessary duty of the Metre polls was increased, or that any disposition on thei part of the people rendered such an augmentation of { the Household troops necessary. If 10,000 troops were wanted by the Noble Lord, they would all be necessary he had no doubt; the Ge trds of the Opera, and the Theatres might be doubled he dared to say, and soldiers might be stationed at the doors of houses where there were parties; but all this was entirely out of the question—he must see that romething had occurred int this Metropolis which rendered the reign of the Regent different from the reign of George. the Third.—( Bear, hear, hear.)-London, in a military point of view, was no greater now than it was in• 1792; for the Tower had had the good, fortune to escape all the operations of the Ordnance, and was not militarily greater than in 1792.—(A laagh.)— He hoped Gentlemen Would: feel this as they should feel it : let them bear in mind that what they were voting was intelligible to every man in England.— The Noble Lord had attempted something like ar gument on the present occasion, and the amount of this argument was the services of the Guards. Why; no man ever doubted their services. From the first hour of their constitution down to the present day they had been the On:indef. of Europe; nor had they ever been employed where they did not distinguish themselves. But from what did they spring ? From 3000 only—they might be reduced again to that number, and if it should afterwards be found neces• sary they might be increased with the same elasticity. The Horse Guards had also distinguished themselves on all occasions. The Noble Lord said, will you turn all these men adrift?—" I cannot (said Mr. Tierney) turn them adrift, because they would be retiring on pensions; but this is what 1 cannot comprehend—the, Noble Lord tells me they are cheaper serving than retiring." The Noble Lord had drawn another ar gument from the beauty of the horses; he dared to say they were fine horses— very line horses (a laugh.) But very fine horses generally fetcbed a very tine price in the market. The Noble Lord, however, did not know what they could do' with so many horses in the market at once—the market would be ;Jutted be them. But if this sort of argument were to be al• lowed to prevail, he did not see where it could atop. Supposing it, for instance,`Appiied to another part of the army which had united the acclamations of all parties—he meant the Scotch regiments--the Noble Lord would say to them, what would then become of the phelibegs and bagpipes ? (A laugh.) The market would be quite overstocked with them— there would be no purchasers—there would not be a sufficient number of admirers of these commodities to take off the whole stock. While all this jealousy WAS entertained at the smallest reduction of an part le l-4 ‘7101i.% • - of the irmy, not One retie Was raised in defenerlif the navy—(lYear, hear ) Bat-when they touched the foot guards, all w as a l arm . It t h e y once touc h e d any part of the horse guards, which heed be sides of the streets throng): fairich the Prince Regent had to pass, the whole country was exposed to destruc tion—all would be se..llowed up by France.— In 1792 there was much greeter cause fur alarm than at the present moment. (i.e would only state to the House, that if in this vote lie should be defeeted he despaired of doing any good in the way of economy. The Noble Lord seemed to have a curious notion of numbers ; he called 15(00 men a small army, and he called 68 a great majority.. (A laugh.) Now, he thought this on the other hand a very small majority; and, above all, they ougle to take into account that it was a decreasing majority at every stop. This eves rather a poor complintect to the eloquence of the Nohle Lord. On the first division the majority was 120—by one speech alone of the Noble Lord, be lon 20 votes ; and altogether the Nebl - Lord lout been going on losing votes, at the rate of eight and a frac tional part for every hour spoken by him. (A laugh.) If he were diiappointed in tiiis, he hat but little hopes ef good from any epposition, however success' oil, to the Property Tax. He could not wonder to see Gen:le. men, who had made most splended speeches in tie City, voting with Ministers for the estalsliehments.— He owned he attached ten times mere imp stance to the present eptestion than to the Property Tee. The area was a qaestion of mere money / but this was a question of vital iloportai‘ce to the country—whether it was to chenge its whole farm and constitutional system. When he said grin he did not mean to im pute to lelmisters a deliberate system of overturning the Constitution--lie acquitted them nientertainieg a deliberate system on any subject —(laugh.) But though they mtget net. deliberately plan the over. throw of the Censt(tirion, he reotrld say that the mea. sures they were Pursuing put the Constituiion in great d Inger. Ad Honoureble Gentleman (Mr C.-Grant, jail.) on a former evening. had enlarged on tile qui.- lity possessed by our Constitution of making an ade quate resistance in every great pressure. he should doubt, however, - whether the London part of the Constitution was F.T. eif itself to bear the pressure of 9 or 10,000 troops. But, at all events, he iaW no rea son for making the trial. If they were to have a peace without any of the blessings of peace—if they were to be cursed with a large standing army—if teis was the result of all the sacrifices which we had made, he would defy any man to show where we were to draw our resources for war—(l - lear, hear.) — The mere saving of the 5,000 men -which itt the first instance would be effected was not all, they wouli find other sayings to depend on it—they would cot need, for instance, the same number of Oillcere ere the Staff. He laughed at all the Estimates of the men absolutely necessary for this or that duty, be cause he knew the gainer from which they came, the Head Sofa' at the Horse-Guards. He had the highest respect for the Dt:ke of York, but no elan would convince him the: at the meetings at the Horse Guards would any great zeal be meeinoted for a re duction in the number of our creeps. If there were Ino enemy to be apprehended, why keep up 111,e')0 men for the defence of the British Empire ?. They Inig'lt sat. that such and such a number were nee( s. 3.1r7 to &fend this or th tt piece in ease et tette , * ; but when we !fed na creetey to apprehend. sell wee: we to pieeume an attack on every one of cur Foss-ee ! siens ? The Hence, hewever. ought to bear el :tees 'in mind, that the 5000 men now eroporee to be reduced, ler I nothing to do with the force neces sary for our. Foreign Possessions—their service did not extend beyond a limited circle round Londea.-e. When he first heard 4 the necessity for such a mine bei of men to be stationed along the coact of Devon, he had asked a eritieery min it it was requisite to have all these men to keep the French from lending at Dover f —No, he answered, it was not; but if the French should come somewhere else, such a force would prevent them . from getting back again that way (larch). —He repeated, these was no occasion for one man more now than in 1792--again and evil) 'he wished there. to bear in mind the effect which would be produced out of doors—that every man understood the question—that it required no military skill—that these troops were merely so many assistants to the police—and what was more, to give a new degree of splendour. It was a question between the country and the Court, and nothing else (hear).—Let Gen tlemen support the Court if they would, but • let him tell them they were supporting the Court. If they would not practise economy here, .he wished to aslc when they intended to practise it—if they would not now reduce the establishments, when and where would they reduce them ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER contended that the number of troops proposed to be kept up was not more nu. merous than accessary, and urged the impolicy of discharging this excellent and veteran force. and entailing an expellee on the country to raise another force very inferior in its mtztate. The House then divided—Fur reducing the Household Troops and the Guards one half, 128—Against, 210—M1o:icy 82. Another divider) took place, on a motion of Mr. %V rsu r, for equalizing the expence of the Cavalry and Househt.):l 'Creeps by which a saving of £20,0t.0 was proposed—The numb, rs w.ro For the motion 122—Against it 201—Majority 7 9. Lord PA I.MERS fON moved that ae333,692 be sr.)te,i for the service of the Cavalry and Waggon Train of Great Britain fin the year 1816. Mr. TIERNEY moved that the Chairman should report pro gress, and ask leave to sit ag.Jn. The House divided—For the Resolution. 125; Arlon it, 62. —Majority, 64. •I'he Resolution was then agreed to. The Chairman then reported progress, and asked leave to sit again Ibis day. Lord CASTLEREAGH postponed moving for leave to bring in a Big for better securing llonaparte in the island of St. Helena, till this day.—Adjourned at HALT-r.t.iT One O'CLOCK. THZ EARL or MassaarENE.—We have already noticed the death of CHICHESTER SKEFFINOTON, Earl of Nlassareene, B.iron Loughneagh, at his seat, in Ireland. His Ltirdship succeeds his brother HENRY, the late Earl, in June, 1811, and married HARRIET JOSCELYN, the eldest daughter of ROZERT, Earl of Ito den, by wham he has left an only daughter. married to the Right Hon. Thomas FOSTER. The Earl dying without issue male, we understand, the title is ex tinct. Sir LUMLEY SKEFIPINOTON is the lineal male descendant of the elder branch of the Miss Ttanrrar.t., who made her debar, as a singer, in the Christmas Entertaigment, at Drury Lane Theatre, and gave the highest promise of future ex cellence. i~ alt.hMisri'Andayr and Master uneawsterThWeatirLeier English . e O ng pe a r ged as. LIARS, now in the Covent Garden Company, are said be eb e pu s s 0 1 Mr. TuMiVtsl. • the Composer. 1 . o A \„