Star. — London, England, 1816-05-14 00:00:00

produet4n-Of the Order. under whiCh the Military were employed to act, 'on the occasion of est Lord Mayor's lkoension to Carlton -House, on ate-lath of May, J. 816. Viscount SIDMOUTT - I strongly disapproved, sw des- the circumstances, of the Noble Earl's motion. find,. as stated by tem on a. former night, taken seeps in. order to provide an adequate number of e Tiehic.e.o . fficers, whenever the military were called but: - He had stated, that the military were not called out under the order of the Secretary of State. But he felt that whenever the military were called . out for theeptsepose of indieiduel'accommOdation, or toptdriii.'reoirvenienceo that an adequate , fiumber of 13Vie.nt5ters should be in attendant.. ;flintier that .e • intpressiop, positive directions had been issued from elsis office to the Magistrates of Westminster, to leave peace irffi•-ers attending upon all such occesioni.• On the next necasion these orders were repeated. There 44 Appear to he a want of that species of communi cation on occasions of this sort, which seemed to ',enc. oessary for the information of the Civil Power. He was of opinion the military ought never to be called QUt eridinut the civil power being duly apprised of it. - }is though/ there was a defect ia the existing mode of. cemmunicetion, although the military were not ordered through the authority of the e .cretary .of Stele. He repeated his opinion that the military ought not sn be celled out without a communication to the Seirerery of State. In the preeent instance, 'no such communication leid been niede. 'lr keret* to, the Secretary of State would be tespontibleeif care was not taken to provide an edequete supply of peace officers. He trusted he had said enough to sa tisfy their Lordships of the propriety of seen an ar rangement, and with to reference to which, the im propriety of acquiescing in the :notion. He depre cated any thing like an appearance of injustice to those who on ail . occasions (except those lately ad verted to 4n that House), had conducted themselves in a way elettohould attach the goodwill and respect of all clasrta of his Majesty's subjects, or tend to lower the credit of those to whom the country owed the greatest obligations. The Earl of ESSEX meant -no disrespect to the description of persons in question. His wish was merely to know by whose orders. the military were called out, so as to nbsteuct the free passage of his Majesty's subjects in the public streets. Earl FITZ WILLIAM spoke decisively in favour of his Noble •Friend's motion; the queition to ithich it referred was of the greatest public importance, in. volvingeneleis than the alzernetire, whether the Gq. vernment proceeded under a civil or tinder.a military , authority, as it aerie:fired that some ocher than the civil authority had directed the calling o u t de" mile eery. What feil from the Noble tiecretaty of tats, he ihouelet, strongly she wed the necessity of adopting the metiers. L. because incumbent on the Howse to know reel to inquire respecting the authority.* it what it may, under which the military were called out, aed heel acted in se reprehensible and question. able a teeriner. The Martens of BUCKINGHAM followed, and warmly sueptarted what Lad fallen from the Noble Earle' Every reed advanced by the Noble Seef.• tary of State, she wed it te be the duty of the Hume to acquiesce in the motion. After advestiag to the circumstances of a case—the repetirionot twhicti ' lie considered es n " small aggravation, he ins:eted upon the necessity of the House being tainrine'd at to the quarter whence the military were called out without. the hate vention of the Civil Power; and even were. peace officers in attendance, if they did tiot istrerfire actively, they did no good, but rather the contrary., by inereing, in fact, the ::umbers of the mob. The Earl of LAUDERDALE was of opinion, that whet had fallen from his Noble Friend, the St cretery of State, rendered the measure, more item ever necessary. He deprecated the recurrence to the rni bury on any occasion, except through the interven tion of the Civil power, and expressed his se.kse of the assurance given by his Noble Friend on a futmer day, t 6 be diffetent from what lie note stated. Viscount SIDMOUTH, us the course of his ex planation, t e olenied the practice of recurring to the mi litary tor' purposes of State or public coaseitience to he a novel one, and observed, that with respect 10 what he had stated en the former occasion, his Noble Friend had misconceived him. The Earl of ESSEX believed • that there was no instance during the reign of his present Majesty in which the military were employee . upon the occasion of an Address being presented by the Lord Mayor to the Sovereign. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE: argued at some length in support of the minion, and lamented that it should appear the Maisie Secretary of State afraid not bring the military uuder the authorite of the Civil Pourer. The Karl of H A RROW pY spoke strongly against the motion, and argued that there was not the least shadeev of reason to suppose that any •ietention ex- . is7ed for employing the military in any way derogne toryor adverse to tlie popstitoo.l_ et: Alsetoptry,-; Teal iere,. on such occasions * _used Merely for the purposes OfState, and public dotivenierig i r .iyehrpw , were military assistance totally disustifor, sucleucca. • sisal, fully as much ground of complaint may arise, from the misconduct of too numerous an essemblege of constables, and he thought it mattered little whe ther individuali were obstructed by 4 than with a staff or a sword in his band, • . The Earl of LAUDERDALE explained. • Earl STANHOPE argued in favour of the 1130. eats, and adverted to the hypothetical case hif. one of - tee military illegally called out (a; he contended they ;.lways were, except under :tie Civil Authority) :I:void - cause the death of an individual. h e s ho u ld hold him guilty of murder, and as there•were ac cessaries in that crime, the like offence must attach upon those by whom he was called out... ... The leeks of SUSSEX seemed inclined to support the•Motionefivhich he thought went to ecebing ithe an attack upon the prerogatives o. the Crown. The . reasonings of the Noble S..cr'etary of State, or of the President of his Majesty's Council, offered nothing satisfactory to his mind against the motion. Earl STANHOPE sad Viscount SI.DMO.UTH respectively explained. . • Lord HOLLAND Hoke warmly in tUpport Qt the inOtiOn s :,yrilich, from what had transpired in die • sussing. be &onght more than ever necessary to be adoPind. ne co itended that no nu:ashy whatever 4iiedidt44lo,4 out slut Willa): on cud an occa- , • lion ; the Lord .Magic .10d travelled peaceably-and Without iaterruption, through the most populous streets in:London, and. ptirely he could' apprehend 'nothing of anal/ler-kind% the precincts of the Royal, residence.; &ire were no reasons assigned against the .motion, though something may have been offered in palliation. Tha Marquis cf BIiCKINGHANt gave notice s that when thepresent motion shUirld be disposed of, he should more an Address to the' Prince Regent, praying to be informed whence the orders were issued for the empiniment of the military on this day. The House then divided—Contents 16—Not day.. tents 93—Majority against the motion 17. While straßess were excleded, we tinttiviaM ; t e Marquis of BUCKINGHAM postponielOW motion fur an Address to the Prince Regent 411 tie subject, till Friday. One or two Fashions were then presented, and the Bills upon the table !intim-tied. Alter which au Ad journoteat till to-morrow took pt ice. ::. HOUSE OF COMMONS. • Sir SAhIUEL ROMILLY put off his fsilleion re•pectine the Protestants in France, from to.morrow to I hurs.lay se'onight.— He then preutred a Petilon front the Prisoners confined for Debt in the Cumberland Gaol against the repeal of the Insol vent Act.—Ordered to lie.on the table. An Account of the Advances made by the Bank to Govern.. vent on Exchequer Rills and other securities, since 1797, was presented and ordered to be laid on the table. The Gaol Fed Abidition Bill was read a second time, and or dered to be colunutted tomorrow: The County Rates Bill went through a Committee. Report to ritorrow. • The Highway Sorveyors'../iill rent through a Committee.— The Report was then received, and ordered to he taken auto con sideration thy Friday. Mr. Ult , Vl* FA N gave notice, that on, Wednesday ; next be Would present thet.Catlitlic Petition. On the: day he should make nu olier motion than that it should lie on the 'fable; but list should then probably beside to let the House know when Its should submit a surnion on the Ind ject. It certainly Was his in tention that the Catholic Qiiestton abolishl be deeply discussed this hest on. Mr. QUIN presented a Petttion from the County of Lime rick in favour of the Agricultural Interest. Ordered to neon the fable. Mr. BROWN!! presented two Petitions from the Roman Ca thohes of the Comity and City of Galway. Ordered to de on the fait!. A Merta,le from the Lords announced that tbeir Lordships requested a conference eats tLis House on Tuesday neat, to cousitter of the red.itniof tt.e Statute Liuok. The SPEAKER informed the Mesoengers that the House agreod to hold ale confereme re.p.ested uu , luisilay swat, a: Eve o'clock in the Pain•ed Cha r.her. The Report of the Commit tee of :Wyey on the grants' for Ire land was brought or, and the Resolutions agreed to. Mr. LONG moved that there be laid before. the !fence an Ac coont sitewinedit Rental of se , eral Es:ues heltingioi to Green wich Hospital/Om the year l ives to 1816.—Ordered. PLTWORTII I;OUIUt OF COMMTION. Mr. BENNET rewired for an atelunt of . the num ber of persotil Confined doriag the last three years in the l'etworth House of Correeti:m. specifying the crimes with stisichthey had been charged. the date of their committal, and the length of time they had Wen committed. He stated. that the House of Cur- TCCtiOil at Petworth was nothing but an assemblage of solitary cells; that persons committed for misde. ote..dours were treated as felons; and that only a (patter of an hour's exercise Wtti allowed them every day. He then mentioned the case of a woman who had byen confined on being unable to find b4il for an assanit : she now remained three years in confinement. He Understood that she was At present considered in. lane. • These thing. deserved inquiry. Mr. DUltkg.a. rrt,u►rl nat - oppose Abof nintiun. He then explained that the woman in quiption had a►saulted •a gentleman so violently that he had peen obliged to appear and to swear the peace against ht.r. Not being ►bble to find bail, she had been commi.ted, and her conduct h.►d since been such as to prove her deranged. It was hts opinion that she bad been in sane alum the first moment. She had Wes kept in the House of• Correction because, as we ►.tiderstoud, adnii.icn had been denied htr at St. Luke's. Mr. BENNET s‘tid, that even at Cli.tp.:l the pri. caner) confined in the Petworth House ut'eutrection were prevented sreing each other, an,/ kept,:apart in a kin'd of wowlen h.,xes• The rn4ion was then agreed to, as well as ano ther from Mr. Be:oil's, tor a copy of the Regulations of that prison. . SOAP BILL* Lord STANLEY inquired whether it wts inten-' ded to bring on ihe next stage of. the Soap Bill to day He wished for cnne further delay, as the Bill was not yet ptin , ed, and in order that the persons' who were to he affected by it should have to express their opinion upon it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had no objection to postpone the Report of ihe Bill, i in corn e liancir with the wish of the Noble Lord, till tt,-rnorrow. Lord S CANLEY said, that such a' postponemint would be of inl avail to die persons wit= it affected. i After some conversation between the CIIA.. 4 CELIAM of the EXCHEQU,ISR, Mr. Pitt/THERM Mr. METIIUIII, Mr. G. L.lnerrON General GASCOYNE, Mr. FINIAY . I Mr. latiStilNGTON: Mr. PHILLIPS, Lord Mitirri, Mr ! .l AMMON EY, Mr. DA V I S GIDDY, and Sit M. RIDLEY,' :Lila Report was broug ht up, read, tbe.Dill ordered to be-printed , and the Report to be taken into further *airs:Aeration .1.10 ILSE ?Ai. Mr. BURRELL was understood to ask whether the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer in tended to bring on the next stage of the Hckse Duty Bill to-eight The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, considering that the discussion of the Civil List Re gulation Bill came on this evening. intended w post ' pore that of the Hurse Duty Bill until after the i or trier should have been closed. It it were then too late to enter into the subject, he would put it off to another day. Mr. PONSONBY had not tinderstruid that this was the stage of the Civil List Bill on uhich the chi , cussion was to be taken. As the blanks , were ru fili. ed up, he se.zcely ex:gland the nieslute tis We ill its present state. • Lord CASTLEREAGH suggested that it :would be More convenient to allow the Bill to go through the Committee to-night tiro form, and the clauses' to be proposed and the blanks fill d up, and then to take the discus4on on i - s recommitment. • Mr. PiaIiSONBY wished that ant settlement on 1 dint subject should be suspended until his Right. Hon: Friend, Itho had taken such a leading part in the opposition to this Bill, should be, as he expected 'an perhaps less than ten minutes, within the Haase. Here the eteversatioh dropped. . • 1 . • jorrnorravica 'efts 6 . 0 1.0114 ns im esp A ec to uf e t r e oc i the N which he had received oble Lord oppOsite th ca p s e4p f le4 m a: afterwards he should have present .when e He WAS not at this .tinie, plaint. e Ca t s a tle re i e n a e g w h t ) h , e rn c a , : m i the assault had been committed, but it was at the in seance of the same Noble Filend who had acc'mpa. nied I,im before, that. he now rose to make this com plaint, Most Gentlemen of this House might not, be aware that the Guards had this day been stationed in various parts of themetropolis. As his Noble Friend was driving down the Heymerket, to pass throi*gh Pall-Mall.be was stopped :it the entrance of that street. , He, asked this e reabon why. He WAS told by the Guards that such were then orders. He demaniled Who was their Commanding Odieer s and was an• steered that he was in Carlton-house. He then in- Tined whether there were any peace (filters; an.! asked for a constable. The soldiers replied that they had nothing to do with peace officers—(Hear, hear, frow the Op/vaiiien). —He hoped an lienourable DA. ro:aet was present who had said on the former occa sion; that it a second complaint of that nature were made, he would support it wit . , his vote. The Noble Lord opposite had then stated that no such cause of acute would be given in future. Was he privy to the order issued to the Guards to - day ? He did not believe it. Ile believed that it CATIJ2 from another quarter. It belenged tta the House to interior, to see that the comfort of the nletroT.olis should not be interrupted, and to shew those oleo dared, to inter rurt it, di it it was not for them to throW iinoe" merits in tie: way of his Mije.ty's subjects. It had wen said, when the first complaint was made, that it arose from factious motives. This he denied- mo , .t distinctly. The Noble Lord. was himself a man of spirit : it he had been stoeped and been tied, as in his (Lord Milton's) •case, that if he went forward, net only his horse but himself should be cut d would he nut have made a complaint? It was ne cessary to stop such proceedings in Gmine. There were some who wished to introduce a military government, and to surround it with the same mischievous array as the Continental Sovereigns. -As to him, he con sidered the first person in ,the country as only its first civil magistrate—(Hear, hear).—He reigned by civil laws, and not by military force, and it was not by the means of guards, drageoos, and regimTnts, that the throne was to be upholden—(Hear, hear.) — There was another case which had been mentioned to him, but lie did not detail it, as he had not ascer tained its correctness. If it were such as it had been represented to hire; be should not be deterred Oorn doing hie duty on the occasion. He felt serious alarm at these innovations. 'rue liberties of the country de pended on their being checked. The mind o' the people would otherwise gradually aceustom itself to those things, without perceiving it. Oace accus tomed to those spectacles, they would forget that they were unconstitutional, and that they had a riyht to complain of them as contrary to the laws of the country. He concluded by moving for a copy of the orders issued to such of bis Mei .sty's Life Guards as were on duty this day in the City of Westminster. . Lord NUGENT supported the motion, and called upon the Noble Lord opposite to redeem the pledge which he had given on a former occasion, bseewing that he had made an application . to Me proper pie:: ter, and had not had suAicient influence to give it eticte. elcreiherrkeuse on his part could be atfeeite led. He considered all those innovations as symp e tams of a growing military system, which wee most dangerous to th. country. Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that the two Noble Lords opposite renewed their assertions to sup port then fevourite theory. As to the interruption in Pall Mall, it a number of carriages were collected, , the intervention of the military might have been pru dent. At all events it had nothing to do with the Constitution. He denied having evagiven a pledge that guards should not be employed at public places and places of amusement. He had never meant to give any such pledge. He understood from hießight honourable Friend the Secretary of State, at his side, that peace officers had been ordered to attend in pro. per numbers. He ;estates! the House would not con sent to the motion. .He was scarcely disposed.togive full credit to the Noble Lords for the sincerity of their constitutional alarm. It might bave been pro per to make an application to the CoMmanding Offi cer, but to call the Leeialative authority en iittertere in such a question WAS rather to render it groteseue than otherwise. Sir C. BURRELL could tilt help saying, that as far as he had seen, the use of the military had Iszen' applied only to the preservation of the public peace. He had witnessed disgraceful scents in front of St. James's, where Mars!mimes) were whipped by ras cally coachmen. He wished the empl..yinent of khe military were extended as far as 1) .vcr.street, in Piccadilly, where an accumulation at stage coaches called tor their interference—( Lanhier.) 'They had instituted x sort of runners at the White Horse-cellar, to get passengers, for their coaches; and by these wormier were dragged- Brat to the right, then to t slie left, till they were half driven out of their wits, 4ta,d their clothes torn, and were obliged to take refuge in some shop—(fighter.) He had been Wormed of this by a public sprrited jeweller—L(larsider)—who had brought several actions to pretreat those scenes of riot and disgrace. He thought that the police not do their duty, and that two peaceable soldiers would do more than 50 or 100 constables. Lord NUGENT explained; Mr. BROUG H AM replied to what had fallen from the Honourable Baronet. He nkbed that the militasy should he employed not only in Pail-111AI, St. James's sum, and the Haymarket, but eveein Piccadilly ! and on what accclunt Because there . ' were so many stages in that street, that persons were packed - down to - Hammersmith againat thCir will, women dragged to the right and left, their clot* :toru, tlwis wits bewildered; so much I% that no ()ow cOuld know what siodlillecome of it, ifit public spit cited jeweller did not step , foeward to prevent it. But how did he attempr it 1 - In the only proper way; not' by calling in , the assistance of the military, but by applying to a Coat of Justice. He denied that either he or his Noble Friend had ever said that the COnsti-, tution was destroyed by the employment of the pity. It had only.beeniaid to be inconvenient to his . Majesty's liege subjerts: in their: lawful avocations.' All that military parade was.nsw o . and he was 010 enosigh to I.i:code( t time when the Guards Were,' only Called out on two 'oCcagsvu . in the • ioir, the ,birth-cloys of both their Majestfee, He within the lest five or six years there evident tendency to give a prepen litary po..ver, till now it hid gnti n to be checked. IL believed this was sion on which the military had been facilitate the reception of a City Add fore they vote totally unnecessete. N re" TGE NE lt I. s such alarms as those expressed by the that the dirty called on to he perform el would habituate the people to the exec eau government. It any persme; were assaulted by them, they bad their eemed , law. He recollected in the cwirse ni professional attendance on a ce:ehreted Hestings's) the same necessary system .He was told that lie ceuld. tee i lle:e e d in a particular dirt ction, and he :Ow l ', way. The piece in geteeien (the Ne i g h, 110414 Carlton House) ryas diett where naturelly ile. sky of the people would induce ;hero to ess m i, le , see illustrious persons, and if it e etc ne t c c gulations in criestion, there vereilti be conheion,s order, and pet haps destruction of th e ll eclo; hi 14. jesty's subjects. I'he wittier ac:ed under the de es tion of his officer, who himself was an len4 b le ti Civil Power. He ridiculed the idea thrown oiretleir by these regulations the Constitution y in ger: J, and insisted that the mietery lectually preserve Vale prece et the increett:ii e ee; :he consteeles could on foot with their 'mill The que;tien be consider J to be totefl j tinvotta T 4 the dignity of the House to entertain. Mr. W YNNE reins:he:seed t:ic interference °fee stiers rini all such occasions as threl allude:a to ; A s ., were not justified in ohoritteiee; ea en et highn~ay, high svay, even by the order ot t!e Severeige i'2ll; utiless led oft by aPe ice Officer. It seas sues.! that the Men:hers should b' .iiiterrupted in theirpc, sage on any occes;on, when tt!.:2-; svgs a mantel: order of the House always to keep the ways cleat e them. The Civil Officer had no right to order the soldier to impele the passage of any indiedual., less he were first resisted. If the interfeienet eat believed to be by the order of Government, this House was the only place where an explanation ought to be demanded. Mr. H. ADDINGTON said, that nn the very next morning after the former cornplsint 114 d bees made, proper orders were issued, a.ld the Migistrates personally attended afterwards. If this d.iy thou orders were not properly attendei to, it co 11 only have resulted trim an idea that there was no occari for any particular inieriererice. PONSONE l,'—tho - Aght the ignorance of ea Right Honourable Gentleman, whether the Magi. strides had atteodia, or not, was a reason why the House thould inquire into the titer, wlitzlier the l'net Officers dui or did rot attend, and trio gave orders for the distribution or the mi;ilary What authority had the military tor being where they . xere found this d.ry ? Could the Right Honourable Geo. riemin, or the Noble.Lordanswer this epesrien ? he praise I generally the conduct of the Lrfe Guards. but this temperance' Mr their part had nothin; to do with the present questi-,n. • Than ought to be no military employed except on special nee.asions, of which this was not one, and therefore there "fns fail ground for the chazge Which was maple, The rm. ployment of the niiiitary ouiheto be discountenanced un such occa s ions altegee:er. CROKER briefly defended die employment of the military )i) the avenues of the Pal.rce, which ought by no means to have been lepres.'.ll::'a di the spreading of the military over the metropolis. la a c Ise some time age, where a centinel :had miscon• ducted himself, he"wit 'apprehended,' and rendered amenable to the civil law, which proved. that thrlaw had power to remedy the evil complained of, Mr. I'ONSONBY• explained, denying •he had sail that the soldiers were:spread oiler the metropolis. Mr. ADDING rON also extilainel • Sir C. MONCK 'wished %o knew whether orders hod been issued to the' military to do that wbfah they were not entitled to ilivlry Ll'sv, that of the passage of :ray riebjeCt'Cier the King's higlova!! He repeated the argunients previously urged, to she/ that this obstruction thi not only illegal, but a nui sance and a crime.' Lot d MILTON explained, declaring that the conduct at the soldier w.ts : Ohl day as gold it could possibly be. lie only wanted tp know, whether the order ur.ler which he acted was 1..-hest or no' ? His Lordship said, iftit he. did go this J.ty in that quarter 'for the pUrpose of aseertainin,.; Ci,..ther he should be stopped or um. —(thar, hear.) The Houte then divided—For the motion 54 Against it 112—Alaineity 55.. LordCASTLF,R PAOLI, on oar return to the Gallery, gallery, was speaking" on the subizct of the Ova List.. He proposed that the Bill should now be mid a second time lire committed for to.m..now, ind on Wednesday any additional clause gnigln be debated and incorporated with the' Bill. Atter some Ouxersittion ihii v:a; ;,kiee4l to. eoCit the motion g* NEWPORT, Cie tionae-went into a Committee on the Itith LanAlartls and Tenants' Bill. The blAnks were filed pp, and t:ie Report ordered for further consideration on friday.. Mr. BitOGl)EN.brorght up she Report of the Malt Bill. OA the question that it be agreed to. Mr. PRO I'HERUE made • some ref:larks 'EI al propriety of exempting the seller or retailer of wag tram the op: ration of the Bill.' The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he could not conceive how any such person. cuoli tarigine theinselves entitled to such anAillowince. Ihe ainaeo.litients being agreed to, the Bill teas ordered for a third wading to.morrow. • a 4 HusßAN:Atv korsys. The. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQT.:A hiving moved for a.cotutnittce on this BPI, s'Afef kiiintentiots tn . Comtinttee h^ Pdwited to exempt Stage s.;oath tiorses irtn Assessed Tax on them for the present ye , tr. . The House hAv; , ...z gone into the Coinmittcc, Mr. BUR KiLL opposed the Bill, on the Ar of its unfair operation, as persons who had r land, which required more horses to till it zeta !);h:g rnannee,.had advantage over those who ha ltnds. _There was no fariner now who was tie: distreisrd 'circumstances, and every pass.ble ought to be given W them. MrGIDDY deolored the expediency of t: 's ..ax, which trouts' not have been necehary but fur cie • • cAtere.dott had P e gal Lcy to t he ;It. th a t -00 at !k. to the calk! ant • a n and thrl. -• tb ;1 Ito : II ! s o Nohk : L fa ci t:t e '(the nl t en, !re im .tt.!,y at curemli, wren V(4 i ( ri W4cr tt 1) prev.t.i,ti, Afft eu in E eye ttent anr.th i , glth•ainho X 1.4 • • .1