Star. — London, England, 1804-04-26 00:00:00

fionate obferver, be fuMnfed In the leak to milk :te l l againft the provifions of the Bill. One argument of bis was, that the meafure was not calculated to pro duce men, but money. Unlefs he confidered that, as an argumentum ad bossism, laud of the argamen nom ad rem, he thought it could not pollibly be conG• dered as any argument at all; for in a fubfequent part of that Honourable Member's fpccch, be ad arritted that, of 40,000 men which it had been pro. poled to raife by that Bill, there were now aftually Tailed and embodied to the full amount of 30,000 men; and it was admitted on all hands, that of all the meafures for the increafe of our military arength, the Army of Referve had procured the 'arra poffi• ble number to our difporable force. Neither himfclf nor any of his Right Honourable friends vilified to contend that it would by no means injure the gene ral recruiting for the line ; on the contrary, they only raid that it did not put a total flop to the general levy for extenfive fervice, but admitted that it muff, as all levies for limited fervice mutt, tend pro canto to &mi. , Mb the recruiting for the regulars. He had objefted .In tech general terms, that while he condemned ;he operation of that Aft, he cenfured Minifters for bringing forward any thing like a repeal of the law which he feemed to think obnoxious. He did not polltively fay which of the two he thought was bell. Minifters, however, had not adopted either; they bad taken a middle courfe ; and only moved for a temporary fufpenfion of the law, until the recruiting for other fervices could be completed. In his objet. tions to the meafure of forpenfion in itfelf, he had riven it the mild title of a Bill of falfe pretences.— Be could not fee the propriety of the application of (itch an epithet. In this branch of his argument he feemed particularly to refer to the mode of railing money, which was provided•for by the Bill. When tome of the Counties in the Weft of England, for instance, had exerted themfelves with the greatell alacrity, and perhaps with Tome degree of Yowls, and had completed almoll the whole of their quota, would any Gentleman (land op and fay that it was en aft of juftice to put them on the fame footing with other counties which had not difplayed a familiar cheerfulnefs of fpirit, or railed a proportion. ate number of men? The Honourable Gentleman bad alto Rated the inconvenience which mull relish to the Houle from a caniideration of the two meafures, that of the Bill which was now before the Houk, and that of the propofition which had been made by a Right Hon. Gentleman under the Gallery. He confeffed that for his part be plainly faw that very treat inconvenience mull arife from the circumflance of entertaining two quelliens of that nature at the fame time. The one was for a temporary flifpenfion of an Aft already eflablifhed, and which mutt be sonfidered as a matter of experiment. The other was for the adoption of a new meafure, which was in eatenfive in itfelf, and fro ample in its detail, as to farm fotheient grounds for the ibtrodultion of a new Bill, which would require the molt ferious delibera tion of the Houle. A particular provi fi on in the sill he had regarded as a job. But really he could mot fee bow any thing like a job could be likely to be made of fuch a regulation. The counties that were particularly deficient in the fupply of their quota of men, were to be made fuhjeft to the penal provirions of the former Acute. To afeertain the funs which they were to pay for fuch a deficiency or negleft, it was neceffir y ro make enquiries of different perfons, so oneof whom could have within himfelf the power at making a complete return from his own know /edge. Some might be dead, or others might have defected between the time of their heing : raifeed by the pariffi difiritt, and the time at which it was lu pe/led that they had entered on real military duty ; others might have been difeharged after they had been fent to join their regiments. For this purpofe, he thought that it was abfolutely neceltay that fame Gentlemen of r efpc&ability (Mould be appointed to a fervice which was fo effential to the public ince telt, and fo diverfified in its illations. There vows one queflion to which the Honourable Gentleman appeared to attach the greateft importance—that was the payment of fines by the county at large. He evidently confidered that the law was intended to be the fame in that refpea as the militia laws. In the militia the deficiencies were to be reckoned as fo Much fine upon the county, it was true. The Army of Referee Aft alfo levied the penalty off the county in the foil inliance ; but it provided that the money Mould be afterwards eventually paid by the parilh which was deficient. The Honourable Gentleman bad (fated fame nbjeftions alfo to the inftruftions to officers, who had to rail,: a certain number of men fur a certain rank in the army. That might be made a feparate quellion, no doubt, if any Honourable Mem ber fhould think fit to to do ; but lively it had no con nexion with the immediate queflion before the Houle, namely, the Houle going into a Committee on the Army of Referve Sofpention Bill. Alto the jollies of the ewe, confidered on the fcore of propriety, railing a certain number of men within fix months, that was an objeCt for the officers themlllves to look to when they few the inftruftions. If they thousht the length of time was not of fufficient duration, they could very eatily avoid entering into fuch an engagement. The inflruftions, however, were not fo ti idly adhered to, as totally to preclude Miui- Eters from extending the period in which any given slumber of men was to be railed, according as the eit cumftances of the cafe might warrant. It it appeared upon the whole that the Army of Re ictre An flood in the way of-thole levies, or the general recruiting for our difpolithle force, that cit.- c•imllance could not be fairly urged as au argument .4..tainll the Sufpenfion of the Bill. It finely mutt be confidered as an aft of justice to there Gentlemen, to remove an obflacle which flood in the way of their railing their quantity of men within the period Biked; and above all it mull be a meafure of the remelt utility at the prefent moment, to tufpend the operation of any meafure which in the Imallca de-' Free tended in Wien the general recruiting for our armies. In a eery populous dillrift in the crointry. he knew it for a Wt. that perlens in but modcratc cite umflances had paid :oh fooner than enter into the Army of Reserve as It:hit it utet. which thee 'night have done at the time, and have :d 1. lie by no means wilhed to (late that their w:r • generally to he met with, but 3t was to 11cw that fume temporary luipentinn of the Lau. w.ts I , Lcefroy. The p10p.40.331 of the Right I lon. Ger.- t:-watt ennkl only he t:tmed at patient. a matte/ of p. m e w, 031,11.1erieR the prelim me.ifore in the i.•. 1: paint of yiett, it mud mt./only was en;iticil to fome claim of priority; and tire - Honk would recol left at the fame time, that nothing was now intended to be done which would totally detiroy the good (f -ie.% of the Army of Referve Aft, but that the Plea fore was brought forward as the tneans of accelerat ing the increafe of our difporable force. If any other fyttem was to be adopted, it might be the objeft of future difeuffion, without interrupting the progrefs of the prefent Mr. FOX laid, that after all he had heard on a for mer day, as to the neceffity of a thorough difcutlion of the Prefent Bill, he was furprifed to find that it had not yet been thought necetfary to enter into any explanation of the neceffity of it. He had not heard a tingle word in fupport of the Bill ; but its fupporters had confined thernfelves to a general re cornice° dation and impede& defcription of its fea tures. On Friday lan thcy were not prepared to enter into its merits, and now the Houfe was to un deraand that they mutt wait till ancther flage for any fatisfaflion on the fubjeft. The framers of the Army of Referve Bill, at its firft adoption, found it a meafure next in efficacy to thephilofopher's floncoThe furpention of it, the Houle was now called on to be- lieve, would do great wonders; and,there was little doubt, the revival of it would be a call on their cre dulity to a Rill more unbounded extent. It was not, however, his with to keep Gentlemen to their pro. mires of a former day. He argued, that fufficient unto the day was the folly thereof. It was fail tliat the Bill had exhaoned at prefent all i's force; is if they had been told of a horfe that his Rrength was exhaufled, that he was fatigued ;—but let him fleep, and he would greedily recover ; or like a pump well, art of 'which no water can be drawn, beeaufe the work's are out of repair. No, there are not the reafons taped. But Minitlers day—" Stop— this water has 'got In low, that you cannot pump out of it to,ooo men at prefent; but wait till the water is reftored, and then you may pump out of it more men." Another mode, bowever, has been propofed by the itight Hon. Gentleman tinder the gallery (Mr. Pitt). But what do Minifters Cay to it ? " Let us try our twat - me before your's. We have gone on ' as far as could be gained in the way of a limited force. As we cannot carry it farther, let us try if we mount fucceed better in an attempt at an unlimited Crevice. As we cannot get more men to content to reeve in Great Britain, let as try if we may not induce others to 'extend their Cervices beyond it. *—Prepof ' terous, indeed, and contrary to all order, and to every ideasof common undernanding, was it to flip ped... that having exhaulled the more eafy and lets extenfive (pecks of terrier, they could then, without any improvement, without any favourable alteration of circumtlances, expeft greater nieces in the more difficult and more extended fel vice. They reprefent ed the AR authorifiog the Army of Referve as an Aft-which had done more than any other meafure could have done. If it had failed them, how could they taped that a lets efficient plan was to be crowned with greater fuccefs ? What hopes could they have of fuccefs in my thape, when this molt fuccefsful of all meafures had failed them? The plain anfwer was, becaufe by giving rank to Officers, you opened ,the door for giving higher bounties, than were given .in any other fervice whatever. The limitation of time for railing the number of men to entitle an Officer to his additional rank, fo far from operating as a cheque on this prattice would, he was conceived, as his Hon . Friend,(Mr. Whitbread) had already no ticed, prove an additional encouragement to the in create of tuch bounties. Rank was the great aim of Officers who would undertake to raife men in this 'manner, and having made up their complement nearly to the number agreed on, there was little doubt that former than facrifice their objeft, they would give any bounty, even to the extent Cpecified by his Honourable Friend. But Knitters raid, the fufpen• lion of the Army of Referve would do much good. All that it could poffibly do, he and his friends had already anted, nay, had enforced on the confidera tion of Milliners. He, and many other Hon. Gen. tlemen in that Houfe, had often enforced the neceffity of removing . the bounties, and thereby atrording fad ' lity to recruiting the regular army. This, however, which was unquellionably the great objet held out by the futpentionof the Bill, they had delayed till the latell poffible moment ; and now that it was propofed, he did uta fie that it would have, to any extent, the intended. The Right lion. Gentleman under the gallery, had detailed a plan which unquellionably deferved every fcrious and attentive confideration.— When brought forward in a regular manner, lie had no doubt that it would be greatly calculated to an• Ewer the thick/ in view. His objet would then be more intelligible, and though he (Mr. Fox). had not been able to follow the whole of the Right lion. Gen tleman'. tiatements and provitions, he had no doubt, from many things hi ! W-.C.1 did meet with his approba io.what fell from the Right Hon. Gentleman, that the meafure proproed by him would be infinitely fuperior to the prefent Minillers, however, afked why the plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman, which they teemed alfo to think might be advan• tageoufly employed, was not introduced at fume after period? Why, the Right Honourable Gentleman had formed his meafure on the plan of the Army of Referve Bill, which it was his objeft to improve, and render etneient. The Knitters, in the mean time, pufh on the futilention of this Bill at one time their favourite. Aft. They attempt to do away the very fur:store which it is the objeft of the Right Honour able Gentleman's intended motion to improve, and which by his attention and ability, might be rendered of infinite advantage. They do. not with to aslord him an opportunity of trying the etre& of his mea lure in the Houle of Commons, but think it fuf ficient it he have it in his power to prir.t his Bill, and to publifli his fentiments, as a Speeds intetari to be fpoken in that Houle. He agreed with tf Right Honourable Garlernan in thinking that in the cafe of ballots it might he fit to give a liollEr! o. the perfon halinted to ler ve, provided he were to ferve perfenat!... But.l4fs the Right flormicab!: Secretary of State, " We have tried the I...peti rncnt. Wc have in particular COOTstieS offered iarge bounties as an ir•.duccmer.t, but without effeEt."--fs the right Honeutrable Secretary, however. certain that it the per.alties and b 'unties were limited in the manno. rropoCed by the Right Honourable Gentle. man ; is he cerrain that. if the nature and endurance t',e icrvic• , •-•Tc totally difFerent, firtuil.ar inf}rlces w•uulJ : tat, lAys the Right Horwur -416:C S:cr_tar•: :;tate, at lea( clubbing mall be dvl.e Ilomour.4ble Gentlcnua dccland that he did Pot know on what mood fubfcriptions Could be fuppored to prevent the acceptance of bounties. If the lave could be rendered effeelire and the penalties limited ; he could not fee how clubs could be enabled or could with to pay great boun ties more than individuals. He certainly approved greatly of ballots, and thought that clubs, fo far from operating againft the AR, were highly meritorious. Was it confident in an At of Parliament to prefcribe that people might pay 51. each for exemption, but , 1 that four or more of them fhould not be allowed to tors up who fhould pay for the whole? Now what ob jeetiort could be urged againtt poßponing the going into the Committee ? If they did fo, they would have two plans before them on which to chore. The plan of the Right Honourable Gentleman had not at all been replied to,-but it bad been Rated that it would more properly become the fubjeft of confideration when the Rate of defence of the country was before them. His Honourable Friend (Mr. Whitbread) had properly afked them, why then the, had objeeted to go into a Committee on that fubjeet ? Their anfwer Teemed to be, the time would come when fuch a queftion might be dirculfed, but this was not the moment—Minifters did not with yet to be removed —they mull die, but not jug now—tome time hence would be equally agreeable to them. If the Right Honourable Secretary of &ate .thought the plan of the Right Honourable Gentleman a proper fubjeet for difcufLon along with the ftate of defence of the country, how could the propofing a Committee nn that fubjeet be attributed to him as a plan for dif miffing, Minitters? 'lne point at prefent was, whether the House (bottld proceed on the plan of the Right Honourable Gentleman, or that of Minifters, as the molt likely to be of a rational nature ? The plans of Minifters, fo excellent as they had at Erg esteemed them, they had held out to that Houfe as uncoa- Icious what to make of them, firlt in the right hand, then in their left, according as it occurred to them either to approve or difapprove of their own meafures. Whenever they attempted to im prove one mode, they in every intlance did fo at the expence of the dettraßion of another. If the Right Honourable Gentleman fucceeded in the orefent quellion, the effeet of the delay applied for by the Right Honourable Gentleman would be not to deßroy 'h.. Referee AR but to prop it. His only doubt was, whether the delay ought not to be longer than a fortnight? But if Minifters thought that any thing could be Made of their own meafure, the belt mode undoubtedly would be to delay it, and to fee if they could not ingraft upon it the plan propofed by the Right Honourable Gentleman. Unlefs, indeed, they thought that there was fomething ropernatural in their powers ; that they poffetTed fomething in the batiste of conjurors, which fhould induce them to try &ft one experiment then another. The Honourable Gentleman concluded by giving his hearty Arent to the propofal of the Right Honourable Gentleman. The SECRETARY at WAR explained. Lord CASTLEREAGH oppofed the motion for adjourning the Cotnrwittee. He defcanted upon the very weighty difficulties, which, in fuch a. country as I this, prefented themfeives to Ministers in their en deavours :o create a large defenfive and offenfive force. Thefe difficulties could only be combated by Lome fuel meafures as thole which had at:bully been reforted to ; and whatever apparent contrariety, or inconfiftency, there might be in them, the effea had ' proved that Minifters sided wifely. Their firlt objet/ was to provide for our internal fecurity ; that pur pofe was accompliffied by the Militia, the Volunteers, and the Army of Referee. They had now to provide a large difpofable force to be employed, as occafion fhould require, in offenfive warfare ; and for this perpore it was deemed expedient to fulpend a mea lere, which fo far as the internal tecurity of the country was involved, had certainly attained its effeft for the prefent ; but which, atter the Regular Army fhould receive the augmentation now intended to b.: made, it might be expedient to enforce again, in order to keep up the eflablifhment for home defence. In this view of the fulajekt he could fee no grounds for any charge of inconfillency. Sir J. PULTENEY rote merely for the purpofe of adverting to a Ratement, which he had repeatedly beard made in that Houle, that thcrz was very little difference, in point of difeipline and efficiency fw for rice, between the Militia and the Regulars. With all the regard which he felt for the former, as being ttrietly a cenftitutional force, this was an opinion from which he mull ditrent. Soldiers could not be completely trained, but by mrn who had teen fervice; nor could they be looked upon as efficient, but when officered by men of that dcfcription. But the very conflitution of the Militia precluded the idea of their being fo officered, and independently of that confi deration, we had not officers enough who had leen fervice supply the demand of Co,ooo men in addi tion to the regular army. There certainly were con fiderable numbers of militiamen in the army which fo nobly fiipported our military charater in Egypt ; hut it fhould be recolleacd, that they had been diflri buted into regiments of the line, and previ,us to the landing in Egypt had their dilcipline perfeticd in the garrifons of Gibraltar, Minorca, and Malta. Lord CASTLEREAGH expLiined. Mr. WINDHANI approved Of the amendment.— He was likewife favourable to mot of the ideas thrown nut by Mr. Pitt. '11..., propn.a: for fill-pend ing the Army of Referve A was ar. additional 1•roof that with whatever plan blihitters might let nut, they always terminated in incnnhileticy. He could net cenceive what benefit was to he derived from retain ing the meafure in a Itate of fufpention. They wilhed to keep it in a fort cf middle 'tate, in which it was neither to be wholly dead nor wholly alive.— Did they mean to exhibit it as a kind of ghntl in ter r;rem, and fir the fame put-pole tier which other ghedts h.ra been recuticd to. that cf c !riling money —lt tie Aft had done all that it he it not repeal...! ? For Ilia pair, I.e a n:. iced that Mi. niacts were at Jail convinced ot it, icy ; !:e.y %lied to prevent a itiven hy alitgli;fing the virtual the pretence nnly of a temporary htfoentitin not produced the etfi,:t which thry hop: h beer ght Mitch eras nut twat...v.:a by t an:e 1 , 1 the tA tt order it hid ...usl e TI HANCELLOR4 thc EXCHEIZI:I7 tl c Right Hnn. Gcrolcnian bcg.in %rob 0: •-;i-trs which he hid prop( h.• atteiw.r s adol•tcJ. tcr iotn ; but be i4i.l matter of ihacrie to Lis Ma';c.,y's C•cv nOt .c Ina nt:w .N. He was afraid, there were a great nenntier of NM- . bers-in the Honfe ready to adopt the propbfitittet of the Right Honourable Gentleman (4 hoe twit) he repented, that was his fear. Bet be would main tain, that the men who oppored the precut Me,. lure, were not the men to come with the objection they ur ged. If their language at the time the Bill paired were recollected, the Houle would agree, they were not the perfons to argue the 'retreat nbjedion. What, however, was the fad t The Att h id produced 37,000 men to the defence of the coml. try, and 13,000 men for general ferviee. Bat horn November laft, to the prefent time, it has prodtwed nothing. That is, till November, the benefit if the Aet outweighed any inconvenience belonging to it, and lince the reverie is true ;—fo that now Minders with to fufpend the operations of the Ad.- 'to fee if a fuhltione for it cannot be found. He ' did not hefitate :o fay, that it was an Ad that ought never to have paired, but on the molt urgent necef city. It was fo burthenfome in Its operation, lb contrary to the feelings and habirs of this happy Country, fo much in oppofition to the general tenet of its Conflitotion, that nothing but the abfolute fafety of the country cotdd be the pat compenration for it; that, he was proud to Cry, was the true Ante of the cafe. He had not fhrunk from this meafure when neceffary ; be would be the fiat to find a rub (lnure for it, when it could be alifpenfed with. It appeared too much to condemn him for this latter part of his conduct; for he had never concealed from himfelf, that the Aft was a meafure of vigour incontillent with the feelings of the people; which they born, indeed, with the patziotilm belonging try their character, but bore only from the neceffity and refulution to meet every burthen, rather than boar beneath an oppreffor. As a permanent fyilem, it could not be endured by the nation. It was one thing, to be placed under Miiitia officers; and another, to rave in this new fpecies'iof force. He meant to fpeajc candidly of this meafure; of the fpirit of the tunas try in thing cheerfully under it ; and the necelfity of finding an early fublii:ute for it. The Right Honourable Gentleman had recommended the affi. milating regiments with counties. whole names they fhould bear : this plan had been tried, and it would never anfwer as a general plan: The recruiting mu* lie much among manufacturing towns, and therefore the men of one county, or one town, MI up mans- regiments. Betides, regiments teturning from abroad could perhaps never be recruited in the fame county in which they had thei r or i g i n . H e b e li eve d toosthat it was not politic to have all the men of the *regi ment from one county. He would not poetic flask further ; but he had found perfons of the bee enoW ledge agree with him in that. The Right Has. Gentleman complained, that Government pis theinfelves credit for all the zeal difpliyed by die nation. This was not troe--but Government i t claim fume praife'fnr the direction given to th e p a b zeal. That zeal was fpontaneous ' 4nd needed Pm mortal honour on the n a tion ; bu t Government gave fire and confidercv to it. But it was not the fponta mous seal of t or e people that has blockaded the enemy in his ports from the Teedl to the Adriatic; that has made the acquilitions of foreign territory ; and that has eonaituted and confadated all our imnsenfe force, in all its rearioas deferiptions ; a variety which has been created ludicroufly; but which, in his mind , conflitutes the honour rf Government. He was cer tain that the meafure had continued long enough fo anfwer any purpofe, and that its enntinnsney any longer would only produce competition, and impede recruiting for the regular army. Mr. CANNING cantered the ntmoll aftenifhment at the manner in which the Chancellor of the Ex chequer had argued the quellinn, fo different from that of his colleagues, who had fpoken of Mr. Pitt's propofal with approbation and refpth, and rather objefted to the time of its difertfilon, than to Its prin ciple. The teal ohjed of the Right Honourable Gentleman feetned to be, to hold out the pinpoint of his Right Honourable Friend in the molt odious and deteilable light ; as if, by a forced ballot, it meant to raife men for foreign tcrvice ;'and as if the whole plan was fonnded upon the moil arbitrary and unconaitutional principles. Such a reprefentation of his Right Honourable Friend's plan, however, was totally repugnant to its meaning and &Gen, and the fenfe and feeling of the lionfe mull completely refute it. The Right Hon. Gentleman, who was now In alarmed at the idea of impottuning men raifed by ballot to extend their Cervices, had none .of thole fcruples when he, within the lall Int might, fupported a meafure for bringing thelrith militia to this enuntry. This was an inconfifieney which it was for to explain. Was it decent or beer - ruling then, in the Right Hon. Gentleman to defcribe the tendency of his Right Hon. Friend's plan, to importune men railed by forced ballots to go into foreign fereiee ? Tae only objection of the Right Hon. Gentleman's colleagues was, that the relent was not the fit time for the plan. But they agreed, particularly the Noble Lord (Castlereagh), though in defending his own meafore. yet, a* fcerred, willolc to have two firing. to his bow (a bilk), exprettcd a hope that the principles of the plan might be difeuffed on a future occatcn, a hype whicn he firmly &Tufted wrotld befpeedtly real:red. Mr BA ,;TA RD c.mtenJcJ that the plan ropored by Mr. l':ttwon:,: he the tatol! ar*Jitraty and uncon littutional :hat c .uld he inficad of its caporing t be intp•-t..0, he ( eare d, expole them to h.- dragr- , ned u:ro e:neral fervice. He c,ntendeJ that the AL:i;ia was a contlitotional fort: which ought to be caretully cocritheri, and without meaning any utfrcrpect :u A•nty. he wa: of opi. rion that the Mi;i:ja N'A• a cu:olitu:ional check 011 the Army. As to t::c Army rf Rc.rve DM, b e w;flic.i it wv. wholly It had been proJite. tiv: rf n-,; !et hardlh;p .u.. 1 tn' • %.. e.s Lz ha I wit ”e4feJ, horcd sc4:.-! The plan cf the R: 'a H. •. tted prt.Jure . I, t IT. V? Ac: te,C ni:, :it Ti c I cr..- t•e T.l :U`,~'• o• --. . . n 0. • .I,m, r t Re. H:c Ole Itirt Mr. Cann n •t'!•t Ger.tle •traLion of un Aiton. J.f . cr,"?,l:!:c c—nduft V 17.. r •.% eer ri r4 kn from A tr'lC LI a: i:Able frir"e's argurncnt %as that had voce c4;lc4i Mr.