Star. — London, England, 1809-05-12 00:00:00

ti a: all I a; do went, iuq;iiri Mr. f o rt t and of }-loose t he lat ay' tons , j a g ou to its tent to t he H should The LOT nnanit o pres to strip that a strinti Mr, the ch The PET' !or th; Mr. Move had b that I enter of ab in hi! sent in th ~r S .e cols to observe that every Mettiber is prestrnsater _ a: all times present in his place. He looked.opan it a; dangerous to depart from the practice of Pwlia, went, in admitting oral information as the ground of inquiries into alleged abuses. Mr. Secretary CANNING agreed with what.fell f ro m the Chair, that Ote question was a double one, an d observed, that the latter part presumed that the Honse had agreed to the former part. The first part v . 's , whether the charge should be entertained at all ; the latter, whether it shout! be heard on . a particular d a y If the Honourable Gentleman altered his mo nn so as to put the question upon the first part, leav ing out the particular day, he could see no objection to its being put in that forrx. He thought it compe tent to the Honourable Member to take the sense of the House upon the question, whether the charge should be entertained at all ' The precedent having been again read,. Lord FOLKSTONE, as the House seemed to be unanimous that the precedent should be adhered to, ex pressed a hope that the precedent should be adhered to strictly and precisely. It appeared by the precedent that a list of the places only, not of the agents, or in strnMents, or witnesses, had been given to the parties. Mr. MADOCKS then moved, that the matter of the charge be heard at . the Bar. The motion was seconded by Sir FRANCIS BUR DEN', Mr.Whithread having risen at the same time !or that purpose. On the questicn being put, Mr. CART WRIGHT begged to remind the Hon. Mover, that he had said he was no party man, yet he had but lately seconded a string of Resolutions out of that House. He professed himself not unwilling to enter into any scheme for the discovery and correction • of abuses that was not violent ; but he was satisfied in his own mind of the motives that induced the pre sent charges. It was said there was a general-feeling in the country for a Parliamentary Reform, that he denied, and brought as a proof, a late meeting near Isilarchester, for the purpose of thanking Col. Wardle, when 17 signed the requisition and 70 opposed it. If there were points in• the Government to be corrected, he hoped the House would go along with him in thinking this was not the' proper time for it. What had the French gained by their struggle for liberty ? He contended that there was now more real liberty , and equality in this country than at any former period. Lord MILTON did not know whether in the ob servations of the Hon: Gendeman who had , just sat down, that Hon. Gentleman bad a right view with respect to the Hon. Gentleman who had brought for ward this motion, but certainly he had not a right view with respect to those who should support his motion in a modified form: If he bad thought that this motion was an introduction to Parliamentary Re form, that Hon. Gentleman should not have been the first to oppose it, as he himself should have had the honour to object to it in . ;he first instance. He did not think that any practical .benefit could result from entertaining the question of Parliamentary Reform. But there were circumstances attending this case which demanieel PirlTWEfify Inquiry ; he meant the pal p:ible interference of Government with the votes of individual Members of that House. This practice W.li dangerous to the Constitution, if permitted. to be continued. As to the other parts of the charge, he ir old not impute any blame either to the Noble Lord rr the Right Hon. Gentleman who had withdrawn. Whether the whole were proved or not against them, there was nothing criminal in these parts of the charge, because all Governments had acted in the same man irT ; but the interference with the votes of individuals was an abuse which might be productive of much public inconvenience. He had considerable objection to the proposition of the Hon. Member as it stood, because they all could recollect the inconvenience at. tending examinations at the Bar.. The inquiry might be referred to a Parliamentary commission or to a Committee above stairs. Though he should oppose the motion in its present shape r yet, as. he thought the charee ought to be entertained, he should move as an amendment, "That the matter of the charge be re ferred to a Committee above stairs, and that they be dsrected to report thereon." air CHARLES MORGAN observed, that it was the duty of every man to make a stand no*, sin sup. per: of the dignity of that House, and of the happi 7,?SS of the people. He did not wish to see every ~ ablic man, who was at present, or may at any time be employed in the administration of .Goiernment • vilified and calumniated, and themselves thui rest dercd incapable of serving their eiuhtry ; therefore be should object to the motion.' Would the Hon. Member stop here ? would he be satisfied with his present victims ? Certainly not more, many more wouLl be brought to be filtered through the vessel of Reform. He did not wish to see a new order of things ; he did not wish to see the valuable time of - hat House taken up in censorial proceedings against several of its own Members, instead of being engaged forwarding the public business. He had heard much of the sense of the people. No man valued the approbation of the people more than he did, or I , :gretted their disapprobation more; but this was a case in which he could not suffer himself to be influ. tnced by any thing but his own. impressions. • He should, therefore, give the Motion his decided nega. Sir JOHN ANSTRUTHER considered the pre sent proceeding as one which might be carried on against any Executive Government, whethtr it was good or bad. The Hon. Gentleman who brought -onward the present Motion had said that he was no party man. There was, however, a party in that leculiarkind, who did not wish well to description of men; who were above and there could be no doubt that the 'the Hon. Gentleman were somewhat in that party. The Hon. Gentleman had should begin wish the Borough of Ca first in the catalog's •of abuses he was ig forward ; but after he should do that, matter of curiosity to know where he ;top. Was he to r to all other cases in light suppose the influence of Ministers Tied. He would call for a Committee and a Committee on that point, and all are ground of what he called informs= y him to the House; founded on prece did not apply. But, for his own intend that this proceeding of the Ahlot. did not ;n the slightest degree tend to . a Parliamentary Iteform, but, on thecon ,cta Patliatnentary destruction. He did tad what the Hon. Gentleman meant by noose of ape any roar'' or I : r : t s l e l n e m t m s e e l v v . e t s s r- that he 1 ;',21, as the fi )t. ::but to brio it trust be at fd , nten,:;:d to st whi c h he nti ). had been can rn this point, , :::s cn the 113 :a t ,n rr . vm by r• v•iiich 4 Cini d 7.,,atit a ;I t .0 tire( • ;., tiffisrmation to the House, and he was at a lasi nothing, more than the Constitution—and they desir to compare what information he had given which ed reform not for the subversion but for the establish couldJustfy the ettraordinary proceedi ngs h e meant ment of the Constitution.. The Noble Lord (Milton) to institute. He lave information whi c h n o Magis- seemed to think that as this was an established prac trate ?mold reee; as evidence against a p r ivate in- tice—a sort of trade which had been regularly carried dividoal. For these reasons lie opposed the motion. on by every Government for a long period, he should Mr. CURWEN had never risen in that House in not think the less of the Ministers now accused, more difficulty, because his wishes and his duty in- even though the charge should be proved. He per clined him each to adopt a difrerent line of conduct. haps agreed with the Noble Lord in that sentiment. His wishes prompted him to put an end to this ques- —But at the same time what inference the country tion at once ; but a sense of duty made' him feel that would draw from such an opinion, the friends of cor- Soniethig was due on such an occasion to the di g nity ruption ought well to consider. They ought to be of that House, to the nature of the charge, and to the ware of having a rooted conviction established in the character of Parliament. He agreed with the Noble country, that corruption Was become so common Lord behintLhim (Lord Milton) that the more eli- with respect to seats in that House, that it had ceas gible tbutie would be to refer the charge to a Corn- ed to be there regarded as an offence ; or would they mime above stairs. The charge was of such a na- with sound of trumpet through the land proclaim that tore, that if the Hon. Member had brou g ht it for. not to be corrupt i s th e s h ame I B u t, if they meant ward lightly, or upon weak grounds, or should fail to deny the existence of such corruption, let them in substantiating it, much injury must be the conse- I come to the proof. It was impossible, surely, con goatee to the public. He did not himself believe that 1 sistently, to maintain that corruption was not mis. the Hon. Member would have brought forward chievous ; for the Committees appointed by the this charge having good grounds for it. The ; House itself had constantly been exposing and repro- House was placed in an embarrassed situation by 'bating such abuses.' The principles which he had al this charge, which consisted of two parts: the . ways possessed did not rest merely on any theoretical first ws.s that of undue influence used to bias the conclusions of his, but were to be found in the Statute votes of Members of that House; the second, that Books. His object was to restore the Constitution to corrupt means had been employed to procure the that purity which it ought to have, and which it return of Members to Parliament. The charge he was understood to possess in theory. All he now considered a grave one, and if the House should pass said was, that if one of the organs by which the con it over without notice, he must think that it had dealt stitution was administered was corrupt, it was impos out a hard measure of severit to his Royal Highness sible that the constitution could be sound in practice, the Duke of York ; and yet if this charge should be whatever it might be in theory. A charge of car gone into, it was impossible to say where the investi- ruption in procuring returns to that House had been gation of such charges would end. If there had been brought against two of its Members. If the House endeavours made to create an improper feeling in the refused to proceed to inquire into the truth of the al country, he should condemn it as much as any man ; legations, the manifest conclusion would be, what but he was persuaded th..t the sentiments which had had been already hinted at, that the offence was too been expressed had sprung from the people ; and cer- ' common to be considered as a ground of punisk tainly not from any feeling of triumph over the illus- ment. One Gentleman had said that exclusive de trious person, whose case bad given rise to the expres- merit rested with the accused, and they therefore sion of these sentiments. He could not suppose, that ought not to be exposed. That however was not a the people of this country, who had, during the last : sort of defence that ought to be satisfactory, or that 25 years, manifested such an affectionate attachment ; would be satisfactory to the country. With regard to their beloved Sovereign, could in this instance have ; to the Bill to prevent the Sale of Seats in that House, been capable of such feelings with respect to one of proposed to be introduced by the Hon. Gentleman his family. It was morally impossible that their sen- . near him (Mr. Curwen) he doubted whether its ef timents could have heed's* changed at once. The feet would not be to prevent the carrying on of. the Hon. Gentleatt opposite (Mr. Cartwright),had said, ; trade' by individuals, and to throw it entirely into that he was fot the existing state of things. For him- lihe hands of the Treasury. But the state of the self he ckld say, that be was for the constitution, but !question was this, either we had a Representation or not for its corruptions; ,and the best means of preser-i we had not. If we had not a real Representation of ving that constitution would be to correct any abuses ! the people, we ought to procure it as soon as pos which may have crept into it. though a friend to i sible, for no succedaneum could answer the purpose, rational reform, he did not think the present a proper I . whatever means might be devised for pr aping a time for bringing forward this measure of P ar liamens i corrupt and -rotten system. The Hon. Baronet on tary Reform. That question would better be de. 1 the floor (Ski. Anstruther) had, in attempting to ferred to another period. But no time could be un- i give a definition of the word ~ information," expres reasonable for the correction, and all our statutes ; sed a doubt whether he understood the English lan. speak in a decided manner against corruptions. He ; guage. But whether he understood the English lan should wish, therefore, that the part of the charge guage or not, the Hon. Baronet seemed to have been relative to influence exercised to sway the vote of an' very well acquainted with the feelings of the House. individual Member of that House should be examined. IHe appeared to have had a notion that the feeling If be, however, had any influence with the Hon. lof the House was against inquiry, and the cheers Member, he would have dissuaded him from bring. j with which his speech had been received was a strong • ing forward this motion ; because it may lead to ex- I proof of the accuracy of his opinion upon.that point. posures wlsich might be attended with very injurious Much had been said with a view to shew (that the consequences ; and the Hon. Member must have ob. I charge was not properly preferred. He, however, served a disposition in the House to prevent such; (Sir Francis Burdett) thought there could be no abuses as his charge referred to in future, from the I doubt that the charge was in itself founded upon the reception which the measure he had the honour to I most constitutional principles, and brought forward propose had met with. They should, if possible, 'in a way that was warranted by many Parliamentary cast a veil over the past, and take measures to pre- precedents. vent the recurrence of the evils complained of in fu. Mr. D. GIDDY thought that those who were so ture. He lamented the vote he should be obliged to loud in the condemnation of corruption did not suffi. give for the motion of the Honourable Member. But ciently distinguish between corruption properly so he was in such a situation, that he must do it, or do called and the influence which property would always nothing. have in every well regulated society. The influence Mr. BIDDULPH supported the motion, which in of property was one which ought to prevail as well his conception . related in no way to Parliamentary as that of ability. He would always be glad to have Reform. He never adopted the opinion that all pub. some em vent Lawyers in the House—to see Gentle lie men were corrupt; but whether the assertion were men of the Army and Navy there. The Landed In true or false, the lIP,t war of deciding it was by in- terest oujht unquestionably to have its full weight, vestigation.. • but he saw no reason why those who had their for-' Sir F. BURDETT said, that on a question which tunes in chattles or money should be excluded. He so nearly concerned the character and honour of the saw no reason why some of the Directors of the East House, he was anxious to hear the Theoiions of persons India Company should not pOssess seats in that House, of more experience than himself.subject under since they had important interests to defend.—( Hear, consideration was one of the most important that Bear ! in one quarter, and a laugh in another.) — could engage the attention of Parliament; and one There, never was a question of importance discussed ' whi& the character of the House was more inv o l- in th a t H ouse , without a proof that the interests af. •. by it had some persons to represent them. Mr. to e point of order, he would undertake to shew, D. G. also 'remarked, that under this system the he that hi whatever point' of view it was considered, the country, in spite of all dm wars in which it had been conduct of his Hon . Friend, as well on this as on a I engaged, had flourished. Every town had been im. former occasion, was strictly parliamentary, and that I proved ; new harbours had been constructed ; and it was supported by usage and precedent. He had i manufactures and trade increased together—blessings written down a great variety of precedents, in order not to be rashly risked for any painful schemes of re to prove the accuracy of this assertion, which, how. form.—(Hear; Hear, from Mr. Windham.) —At the ever, from the turn which the debate bad . taken, he same time where corruption was proved to exist, he did not think it necessary to state: The Hen. Baronet , would concur in a i dopting the proper means to check col:tended that they used a most unwarrantable liberty I it, always, however, distinguishing between corrup . . with the inquisitorial powers of that House who coul d ascribe any motives to hit Hon. Friend except a con scientious and discharge of his duty. It had been decided in the House of Commons, that that House was . bound to receive information upon a subject of this nature, and to act upon - that informa tion, even upon common report. How much. more was the House bound to act upon that which was known by most and believed by all (Hear, hear !) 4--He would be glad to hear any Gentleman on the other side get up, and lay his hand upon his heart,' and say that he did not believe the existence of such practices as those which were now charged—practices which tended to• give the most mortal stab to the character of that House. If it was possible for any Gentleman there to defend such things, as to contend that these practices, which were pregnant with de- 1 struction to the Constitution, formed part of the Con stitution itself, then he must say that Bonaparte had a better ally within these walls than he had any where else. (Loud cries of hear, hear, from Me Mini;te-1 rial side of the house.) He was nut surprised to be met with a " hear, hear I" from men professing the same principles which had brought other nations to de struction—other nations, the principal object of whose governments had been to subdue their own subjects instead of their foreign enemies. He desired the Gen- , tlemen wkio were so ready to call out hear, hear," to sliew him any Government which had of late been subverted by its own sui.ajects, except throu 4 h that apathy which the errors of such Governments had created as to the career of a foreign enemy. The Hon. Baronet further observed, that what he and those who were actuate.i by the same principles demanded, was . • always existed in the hest times of tlie country. - -It was one of the means by which vigour was in fused into the Constitution ; and, for his part, so far would he be from denying, that he gloried th.it he did belong to a party, ever since he had the ho nour of a seat in that House. There was no ne cessity at this time to bring forward any question of Refill-me The only Reform that could be safely practicable, was that which consisted in a gradual melioration and correction of abuses which might be observed to grow up, and he thought the two bills then before the House, that brought in by the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, and the other by an Honou rable Member (Mr. Curwen), were at present fully adequate to answer that purpose. He,could not dis cover those enormous abuses in the Constitution which had been so much dwelt upon by Honourable Gen tlemen. On the contrary, he believed there never was a period when England stood so high in every respect as at this moment. It was as free now as at any former,period. The country abounded in wealth and industry. Her resources were abundant ; —her . strength greater than ever it was ; and a martial' spirit pervaded all' elasses of people, which would make them invincible. ( Hear ! hear!) He believed that the cry of Reform which had lately been raised, originated in the great pressure of taxation which fell upon the people. But the people ought to recollect that this taxation was indispensibly necessary for their safety ; and that a Ref rm in Parliament would not make their burdens one shilling less than they were at this moment. The Right Honourable Gen ' tleman expressed his wish that the motion might be put into a shape which might stand clear and intelli gible on the journals. The SPEAKER pointed out the various modes in which such motions might be put ; and, in conse quence of his suggestion, the question was stated in a Erm to answer the intended purpose. Mr. WHITBREAD expressed his astonishment to hear the measure of Parliamentary Reform objected to by his Right Hon. Friend in point of time—the mare so as that objection was grounded upon the same arguments which his Right Hon: Friend, he, and others, had on former occasions to encounter from the other side of the House. With regard to the public meetings, from which declarations of opi. nion had been published upon the subject of the deci sion of the House relative to the conduct of the Duke of York, he maintained the right of the people to ex press their opinion upon any public question, asserting that there were numbers among the public who were as competent to form a correct opinion upon that, or any other question, as the Members of that To think otherwise on the part of the House, he would consider as an indication of anogance and folly. The people had the whole of the evidence before them with respect to the transaction alluded to, and upon that evidence they thought proper to come to a conclusion directly contrary to that of the House. Was it to be wondered at then that such a conclusion, and the considerations connected with it, 'should have induced the mind of the countryto conceive that all was not right in that House, and that some reform in the representation was necessary. As to the attack which it was alledged was systematically. made upon public men, he wished to know whether serious disposition to every gross attack did not pre vail against those who were anxious to expose and punish abuses, even more than against those who were supposed to profit by the existence of such abuses. He remembered, not many nights ago, to.have heard it stated in that House by an Honourable Gentleman that he would rather be Mrs. Clarke with all her vices, than pursue the conduct of the HonouraEle Gentleman who brought her forward. This he of fered as a specimen of what those were liable to who struggled upon the side of the people, and as some counterpoise to the murmuring of those Gentlemen who felt so very indignant at accusations, accoMpa nied by an offer of proof, which still they would not suffer the House to receive. So that although their pride was hurt, and their character impeached, they would not allow their principles to be vindicated.... Although he supported the motion, as he would any measure connected with Reform, or the correction of abuses, there were two points in which he differed from those so pointedly alluded to by his Right Hon. Friend ; for he neither disclaimed party, nor did he profess that extraordinary purity which was described as a cloak fur mischievous designs. Giving every man credit for all the integrity that he could consis tently claim, he believed there vras no public man whatever whose motives were not of a mixed nature, His own motives he confessed to be of that charac. ter, and still he believed himself as.well disposed to do good as any other man—and in the prosecution of that good he would not suffer his mind to be ward by popularity either within or without doors. Parlia mentary Reform he conceived to be the greatest good the country could experience, and therefore he sought for it. He thought it necessary, iu order to prevent tion, and that just and proper influence which ought I convulsion ; but he never did think, nor did he ever to be inseparable from property. I gay, that it would operate like enchantment, as a Mr. TIERNEY regretted the difficulty he was I panacea for all evils. He never was deluded by the. placed in upon this occasion as to the opinion he I cries, but looked .for that Reform only which was should give, in consequence of the motion not being I sought for by so many great men, by Mr. Blackstone * in a tangible shape. With respect to the charge now Iby Dr. Paley, by Mr. Fox, by Mr. Pitt, and many preferred against two of his Majesty's Ministers, he others. If these great men could now be communi must say that there appeared no ground whatever for I catod with, if one of them at least was enabled tp offer making any charge against Mr. Perceval ; but if the i his advice, sure he was that that wise man, whose prin. facts stated respecting Lord Castlereagh were true, it ciples he contracted at his outset in political life, Would was incumbent on the House to take the subject up, strongly recommend the conduct he was now pursuing.. and adopt some proceeding on it. Some allusions ' Several Gentlemen, particularly about the Ministerial had been made to those Gentlemen who were now Bench, had, he recollected, professed their resolution most active in calling for reform ; and tiley were held to wage war with corruption ; but if such a case as that up to the public as persons of great political virtue. thou before the House did not rouze them to act, he For his part he would join in rit• such praise.— ; could not conceive when they would give battle.— Those Gentlemen, in their endeavour to court popu. ' Here were two Ministers of State accused of receiv. larity, affected to despise and to decry all parties, both ing money for a seat in that House, calling upon the those that were in administration and these in opposi- person purchasing such seat to vacate, because he tion. They also asserted that they belonged to no would not vote against his conscience. How the party ; but, in fact, they were themselves a party with money arising out of the purchase had been disposed a leader at their head, and a party of the most objec- ot, the House was yet to learn. The Chancellor of tionable kind, because they wanted to do away those the Exchequer had talked of the violations of social things which constituted the best safeguards cf the confidence in thh disclosure of this transaction. But constitution. Whatever opinions he might fo;.merly in fact there was no -social confidence in the case have entertained on the subject of Patliamentary Re- on the part of his Honourable Friend. The infor. form, he would now declare it as his first opinion, mation he received he laid, as was his duty, before that the present was a most improper time to the House, and it was for the House to decide how agitate the question ; and to bring forward any mo. it would act for the preservation of its own honour tion for Parliamentary Reform might be productive and character. But it was pretende , „' that as there of very serious mischief. The persons then whO was such a disposition to abuse public men, it was pretended that they belonged to no party, could not ; here proper to make a stand against inquiry. What, have any good motives in agitating such a measure. in such a flagrant case ? The 1 r:sent Ministers would —As to party in Parliament, it was a thing which ' not determine upon snob a staid in:the instance of the