Star. — London, England, 1807-03-26 00:00:00

m to let V.ihrelf i cmpa•iiin ; h.' Le the G,:ntlemen ,‘ta the othrt fide, th,,t y night fancy the Cervices t)f p or ;i tt g foroe pre • •i of that lan rf the Contli u Were ly he had ever pet! ; yet the valt ia which made the greatett itur Fe, and which mas ked his ch.irste't, s his hanons Refolntim,: " I:At the he crown had increated, was :arreaflor,, be &mind - bed." When the man who it Rtfohition, and acqui.t..: his fame y it, dkolot think it contrary to his prin. ratter to accept of the fame place for apenfittion for gising u t , his profeflional not fuppofe, that in sluing the fame uld have been jultly ccmdemntd as the due prerogatives of the Crown. H e peaed that this ohjedlion (hould he made f the Noble Lord who had been princi. ental in procuring that lunation for non. It was frefh in the recollet:ion of that the late Adminittrati iiii had pr o . ate Aft of Parliament to fecnre the:Noble 'as at the head of it ( Lord Grenville) aw rf the land, to enable him to continue: he enjoyment of a place entirely lncon the additional place which he had accept t►ble Lord might as well have been called ender the place Le held for life, as he to Mace which had been tendered to him, en on the other fide claimed great credit • .dminiftration, in not giving awayplaces except in one or two inftances. The :n -ever, which were the exceptions, were was no manner of public fervice either expefled to be performed. It had been the Lord Chancellor had obtained thefts who..had been his clerk .when he was a It was not pretended, that as clerk to Mr. had ever rendered any public ferviee, or ce or places were given to him either in r profiietively for any ferviees. He fhould he Route :o confider, whether this mo rom any large and general view of the whether it was not elireaed folely againit lid wit mean to fay- perfonally, but from - Oppofed to have facilitated the arrange-, new Adminiaratinii. It would therefore filbjf:6t for the crAideration of the Houfe, prefent lia , e and crilis of the country, all circirmilsnces conne6ted with the .ernert were before them, when they re hat the cbjett ut tut ming a new Admini .as :u pi eferve the ettabliffiments of the nd pt. hips the religion of it, he hopdd nut b:.: dirpnled to throw any difficulties of his blaj,:ity in forming a new Admini hen I.e conceived that in In doing he was tying to preletve the Constitution of the Having Paid thus much, he thought that to leave the Inbjedt to the difcretton and r f the Houle ; and that, as it particularly iimfelf, he fhould withdraw, after having put in poffetlion of his fentiments; bur, before ew, he thould repeat, that whatever might etermination on the tub:it& of the Duchy of r, and whatever facrifices he might be called make, no fervices that he could be called ender to his Maielly; fhould, in the preterit of aff,,irs, be withheld. RCEVAL then made his bow, and left the UMER role merely to vindicate bimfelf ctilige that was yellerday brought againft taking a Ratement in that Houle on the mere of an idle rumour. It appeared now, from s fallen from the Right Hoti. and Learned an, that his Ra:ement had been perfectly car that if it had not been for the notice taken night in the Houle, the bufinefs would hare tar to remedy it, and the Right Hon. Gen mild have now been in poffeffion of the tiro Ile did not pretend to deny the merit of the on. Gentleman, or mean any thing perfonal s au, but he had a great objedlion to the prin.. iveng a great place for lite, merely as an in to a perfon to accept of an office in the fer• the country. the emoluments of which had been confidered a full dent compenfatiun. HENR Y PETTY Paid, that if he had n to perfonally alluded to by the Right e able and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Pelee. did not think he fhould have troubled le with any ob/crvations upon the prefent . liz was ready to join •perfeelly with the ntl::nan who had brought forward' this mu difclaiming any thing like perfonal hotlility nal reflection upon that Right Hon. and Gentleman, who was the mot immediately d in the prevent motion ; and he had no he at Rating, that if the falary annexed to the of Chancellor of the Exchequer was not Inl and he believed it was nut), he fhould have no n to granting loch an augmentation to it, as fford a reafonable and proper compenfatioss fervices which might be expeited from the on. Gentleman. But although he cam* a to a place for life being given to that Gee in order to induce him to accept the luta .et as he had not before Paid a word upon the he did not know bow the Right Hon. Ger had i ldifcovered that he intended to fuppott lion. He thought it was all . ° fumewhat grange fhould be charged with acting manner difrefpeetful to the tre•nary of his lation (the Marquis of Lanfdown) i ce f be ts o wasf be bound completely by thole preden • r 176 z or 1783. He thought there was $ s ifference between the cafes cited and the re: .ut if there were not, he fhould not ibtnit air to charge him with incontinency, if he hold a different opinion. That relation, fo d dear to him (the Marquis of Lanfdown, his ) had abundant claims upon his love and re without adverting to the cafe of Lord Afhbur- But, however fincerely he was bound to refPl inions and his memory , there were no ties.° nthip, or private affeetiun and refp reffi ati n wbw his prevent him in that Houle from expg pinion on any fubjeet th . tt came before them fcuflion. The cafe of Lord Leclunere he ved to be quite dininel and feparate frot lt the t:as to the cafe of Lord Afbburton, vau, °Reeled that the pace of the Duchy of Lan was not given bin as an inducement to take another place, but as a means of rupporting the dignity of the Peerage to which he had been railed, hot only on a ccount of his great merits, but for the fetvice and affiftance he could render as a Law Lord. Lord Afhburton was then looked up to by every body as the fitteff fucceffor to Lord Mansfield as Chief Jultice of the King's Bench, which is the hi g heit objeCt of legal ambition. His Majefly had been arlaiied to confer the Peerage upon him, and that he fhould nor want Initable means of fupport jog, its dignity, until the Chief jufficefhip thould he vacant, this place was conferred upon him. This was a cafe which, he conceived, was totally dif ferent from the prefent. If thelalary of the Chancel lor of the Exchequer was not fufficient, it might be re colleCted, that there were a great number of other 'Aces which might be given as a reward for ferrices, viben.chofe fervices fh• old have been actually per fotmed, but he obleCled to the giving away the means o f rewa rding great lervices, merely to induce perfons to become Members of on Adminiff ration. He con lidered that it was a moll ferious and unconflitutirinat attack on the molt important prerogatives of the C r own, to deprive it of all power and means ,of re- . ...Yarding great public ferviees . , by taking the bell places and gifts that it was in the power of the Crown to beftow before any, of thole Cervices had been per formeki. He thought that the Crown ought not to have beewadvi fed to limit its powers and prerogatives in this manner. Upon the fubjeCt of the alienation of Crown lands, it had been always obferved t that in whatever proportion the Crown gave away to indivi duals its poreflions and its tight, in that proportion it became weaker, and it was the fame with refpeEt to the lucrative offices. If they were all given away direCtly or in rever lion to one fct of Minillers, the Crown left itfeif without that patronage and power of rewarding great fereices, which it ought topoffefs. A recent and very remarkable cafe had occurred Tome years ago in corroboration of this opinion. On an arrangement that was then propofed, this very place was offered to Lord Sidmouth, who had ren dered confiderable fervices in hisftong and meritotious olifcharge of his ditties as Speaker. Lord Sidmouth . declined it, and Paid he could not bring himfelf to be the inflrurnent of alienating from the Crown the means of rewarding greater public fervices than he had been as yet able to perform. It was not as a tellimony in favour of Lord Sidmouth that he men tioned this, for the Noble Lord required no loch teflimony of his difinteretted conduCt ; but he men. tionedit me) el' for the information of thofe Members who were not previoully acquainted with the circum itance. The princit-le upon which Lord Sidmouth', refuted it, applied with much greater ffrength to the• indent cafe ; befides it was known, that there was a Committee of the Houle now conffituted, for the exprefs porpofe of corifidering what ufelefs and fine. cure offices might he aboliffied ; and as it was poffible th4t the Committee might confider this to be among the number, he thought that it fhould not be thus difpofed of, in a manner contrary to all ufage, before the opinion of the Committee was pronounced upon it. Mr. STURGES BOURNE declared his furprize at the prefent motion, which he could not but confider I , as perfonally direCted againff the Right Hon. Gentle man, who might have juflly af p ired to more honour- able and lucrative fituations, and who certainly facri . ficed far mote in his profeffional purfuits than the , income of Chancellor of the Exchequer. It was to be recollected that the income of this place did not come from the public creatures; but if is were fop. preffed, the income of it would fink lutes his Majetty's privy purfe. lf, then, the Gentlemen on the other fide would have no objeEtion to an augmentation of the falary of Chancellor of the Exchequer out of the public put fe, he did not fee that they had any right to object to the deficiency of cornpetifation being made up by a place which belonged entirely to his Majetty. As to the difintereflednefs of the late administration, he did not underhand that they had opportunity of granting more than three reverfions, and two of them were granted (No, no, from the other fie). He undera ood, that the Lord Chancellor's clerk had two places in reverfion. The place of Chancellor of the Exchequer was worth, as he believed, from zoool. to 250o1.; and that of the Duchy of Lancatler was wroth 20001. He concluded by ex. preffing his affonithment that another Noble Lord (Howick) (tumid think to-morrow was the proper time for making the explanation of which he had given notice, as it was impoffible that any one of the Ilinillers could then be in the Houle, and there would he noriody at all acquainted with the fubjeet, except himfelf and his particular friends. Mr..SHARPE did not with to addicts any tl ing petfonal to the Right Honourable Gentleman who was the fieojeCt of the motion ; and yet he could not conceal his Itirprife, when it was [laced that the cafe of Lord Afhburton was p: ecifely fimilar to the pre fent. He could not conceive the facrifices made by the Right Honourable Gentleman as at all equal to thole made by Lord Athburton, who, before he ac e copied the Peerage, was decidedly at the head of his Frofeffion, and derived the higheft emolument from it. It had been his lituation to have been often called as a juryman in the Court where the Right Honoura ble Gentleman (Mr. Perceval) praaited, and it was very feldom his fortune to be enlightened with any obtervatioos falling from him. Great as his merit might be, he believed it was very little known until be got a lucrative Office under the Crown. He con ceived the Houle would, upon this motion (of which woke had been given Litt night) attain a double so.j:Ct. In the fiat place, they o ould fade the public I ;one) , ; and, fecondly, they worild fee what the in t. ntions of the New Miniilers were, if not flopped by their decifion. Mr. MONTAGUE foid, that Mr. Perceval not only facrificed his bufinefs, which was more than the falary of the Chancellor of the exchequer, but he 'rave up Ins undoubted pretenfians to the situation r.f . Attorney Genet al, which was worth eight or ten thoufand a year. That there were great facrifices he would Inbmit to every fair man ip the lignite—bur he would not fuboiit it to the Gentlemen on the other fide, whom he did not confider fair men upon this lubjeCt.—(4 loud cry of Order, Order !)—He apolo riled if he had helm out of order, but again appealed to every independent Member of the Houle, and not to the Gentlemen on the other tide—(fecorol 111em3ers r:fe to /peak to Oar!)—He explained himfelf by ho ing that he meant by independent Members thole whohadneither places, nor wet c candidates for places. lie perceived tome Gentlemen Imiling, but they vould find it carter to deride him than bo anfa er him. Mr. H. THORNTON could not Rive his vote on, this occation, without requelling to be indulged in a' few words to qualify it. No man entertained higher opinion of the Right Hon. Gentleman, who was the fubjea of the prefent debate, than he did, and therefore, in Commuting the prefent quellion, he withal to be confidered merely as giving a declaratory vote up in general principles, than as intending any oppolition to the arrangement made: he voted merely upon A dry abfiraCt principle 4nd not at all hem party motives. It was his opinion, that places ufually held under the Crown during pleafure, ought not to be granted for life. Whether as a member of the Committee of Finance, and having breathed In long in the air of that Committee, he came down to the Houle now to give his vote with greater Rrianefs than ordinarily, he would not pretend to determine ; but his vote was certainly, the refult of his conviaion upon the fubjedt. Mr. JOHNSTONE . would not have rifen to tron ble the Houfe, but for the purpufe of making an ob fervatinn, in anfwer to fume allufions made to him by an Hop. Member who fpokr early in the debate (Mr. Plumer), in refpea to what he had Paid laß i night. The Honocrable Member, it was true, had lalt night . Rated, what turned out to be founded in I fait, as proved by the declar'otion of a Right lion. Gentleman this evening (Mr. Perceval) ; but when he did Coe the circumstance, he avowed no other ground than rumour, unfupported by any authentic , reference.. Adverting to the compar:fons which had I been made by Gentlemen on the other fide of the Houle, between the cafe now under confederation, and thofe of Lord Afhburton and Lord Lechmere, ) he thought there was very little difference. But he could not refrain from fome obrervations upon the conduct of thofe Honourable Gentlemen themfelves, when they were taking credit for fo much purity and difintereftednefs. He would alk, how they could reconcile with thofe affumptions, the indecency of potaing upon that Houfe on their &ft acceflion to *office, and at nine o'clock at night, two fucceflive Rages of a Bill for enabling the Noble Lord at the head of the late Adminidration, to bold as a finecure the office of Auditor of the Exzheaquer, with large emoluments annexed, and the duties of which were to be done by another, and this at the fame time that another Noble Lord at the head of the family en joyed the Teller thip with emoluments alma incal culable ? How could they reconcile with this boafted purity the extraordinary increafe made in the falary of Firfl Lord of the Admiralty, lately enjoyed by Another branch of that Noble Family, and this not avowed to Parliament in an open manly way, but effoled by a fecret fund ? How could that Right Honourable Gomleman reconcile to his purity the calling on the Houle for 30001. for the expences of Ruttier continuing the Committee of Naval Enquiry, and not fay a word about his own falary ? With re foe& to the Committee of Finance, for which thofe Hon. Gentlemen took lb much credit to themfelves, fo far from their having the merit to originate the meafure, it was rather tot ced upon them by the patti otifm of his Hon. Friend oppolue to him (Mr. BidH dulph) ; but when they found the meafure was too populor to be refilled, the Noble Lord (Petty) adopt ed it, and claimed that as his own, which ha had no right to arrogate. The Honourable Gentlemen bruited much of their economical arrangements; but what had Grey done for the country in effo9 ? I had indeed Commitlioners of Accounts out of num ber ; but what had thefe effefted ? The Welt India Commifiioners, who had been fo long appointed, at large calories, had not even yet failed upon their iniQion ; and as to the army accounts, nothing ap. peared to have been cffea,:cl there. In Root, be ap prehended that whenever thole Hon. Gentlemen thould come to hate avhat they really had done, their explanation would be fomething like what occurred between GeneralStannope and General Walpole upon a tot rner occafion, namely, nothing better than mu ; tool reproach and recrimination. Thole men were the fathers of the Houfe of Commnus at that day, and the Houle, in pity to their nakednels, turned their backs upon them, and Co he hoped they would do upon thefe Honourable Gentlemen. Mr. SHERIDAN now rule, and laid, that he had frequently obferved on former occafions, a very ptu rient eagernefs on the part of the Honourable Gen tleman who (poke laft, to attack with vii ulence the late Adminiltration ; but he feemed now to have atfumed a [lotion of philofophical neutrality ; and one fide of the Houle appeared to (land jolt as good a chance of his fuppport as the other. The Honour able Gentleman feemed this night to evince a difpo fition for following up his attacks upon the late Ad miniftration ; and he had more than once profeffed, that he never had alked any place, employment, or favour of his Majetty's late Miniftets, (though they were once flattered with the honour of his apparent difpnfition to fuppport them). He (Mr. S.) was no divulger of private fceses—but a public meffage, he believed, he had a liberty to avow—and he could fay, that he was once commiffioned with a meffage from the Honourable Gentleman on the fnbjea of obtaining a favourite objea. The Honourable Gen demon might, for this difclofure, cenfure him in any way he chofe, vulgar or refined, according to his taste. But he (Mr. S.)knew that, upon the occafion to which be Minded, the Honourable Gentleman might have been completely dulcified towards hisMa jetty's late Minifiers, if they chofe • it was unnecefTary to explain more—the Honourable Gentleman per fealy underflood him. 'the Honourable Gentleman alked what the late Minifters had effeaed by mea lures of public economy ? In anfwer, he would atk the Hon. Gentleman, in whathad they fwerved from it ? The Hon. Gentleman asked what had they done in the Army ? He would anfwer, that they had ef feted very confider able and important retrenchments, by reduCtions on the Staff, the Commiffariat, and the Barrack Department ; and he would afk the Hon. Gentleman, if his Noble Friend near him ( Lord Petty) did not pledge himfelf at the outlet of his ad. miniltratian, to the adoption of every pratticable plan of reform and retrenchment in the ptehlic expenditure —and, if he had not followed up that pledge to the loft moment of his official authority ? The Honour. able Gentleman wilhed to deprive his Noble Friend of all claims to the merit of originating the Com mittee of Finance, and to attribute the whole to another Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Biddulph), from whole merit it was by no means his with to detract ; but he would fay, that his Noble Friend, in adopting that meafure with a view to give it greater extenfen, by no means %%ailed to deprive the Hon. Gentleman who Arft propnfed it, of the Credit of mi. ginality ; but lonely his Noble Friend was entitled to the praife of having promptly adopted the fug gettion hr the advarrage of the public, indifferent from whom it might proceed. But would the Ho nourable Member venture to a (fent that any manage ment was attempted by his Noble Friend, in orsler to place Minitlerial Members upon the Committee which was appointed in confequence of that fuggef don ? Or would he fay that any management was attempted by the Chairman of that Committee to Tway the deliberations of its Members ? Defeated as the Hon. Member was in his attack upon his Noble Friend on this point, he was Rill more unfortunate in his attack upon the Fiat Lord of the Admiralty, the increafe of whole falary he was pleated to term a fecret to the Houle ; whereas it could be no fecret to any man, who knew what was patting in the Houle, or who took the trouble to advert to the papers up on the table. It was a notorious fad, that, before the increafe alluded to, the falary of the Firit Lord of the Admiralty was fcandalottfly too !mall ; this was acknowledged when a Noble Lord, who had latelybeen fubjeded to the public cenfure of that Houle, was appointed to the office ; and what did the Admini ftration of that day ? Why, in addition to the falary annexed to the office, they confiderably increaled the pay, not from the tale of old (tones, but by an inter tion of the revenues of Scotland, which bonus that oblc Lord had enjoyed till the prefect day, although he had long [ince ceafed to fill the fituation. Thus, the Hon. Gentleman could not fupport his other charges againft his Majefty's late Minifters, better than he fupported thofe whom he walled might be employed' as charger general againft them, under the aufpices of their fucceffors. He defined now to:pay tome at tention to the fpeech of another Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Montague) who had been pleafed to charge Gentle men on his fide of the Houle with deriding his argu ments, becaufe they could not anfwer him : the Hon. Gentleman might, however, have had the politenefs to wait a little, and try whether they were able to anfwer him or not, before be made the alfertion. The Hon. Member had laved them the neceffity, by offering them no arguments to anfwer, and as to every thing elle, he had fo fully anfwered himfelf throughout hi , fpeeeto that it would be fuperfluous to anfwer him any farther. Some cumparifons had been made be tween the cafe now under dircutlion, and thole of Lords Afhburton and Lechmere ; and fume compa• rifons had alfo been drawn between the characters and meth of thole Noble Lords, and the Right Hon. Gentleman now tl.e fubjeft of the debate. It was not his province to go into a fcrutiny upon morals, and no man more highly efieemed than he did the parliamentary talents of the Right Hon. Gen tleman ; and therefore he thought the advice of his Majafty, of placing him on the oppofite Bench, was wifely given. He could nat :enter into comparifous of the number of briefs, fees, and motions, which fell to the profeCtional lot of the Right Hun. Gentleman, and which he was to abandon fur his new office. — But he (Mr. Sheridan) whofe lot it was to vindicate his Majefly's new Minifters from the indifcrcet zeal of forme of their friends, mutt beg to obferve, that they mutt be ftrano friends indeed who could ad vice I the Right Honourable Gentleman to give up his cer tain profeflional emoluments to the amount of eight or ten thoufand pounds a year, as alledged, to accept a place of 25001. in the experiment to become a tole rable Chancellor of the Exchequer. It was a facrifice which the Houle did not with the Right H , ,n. Gentle man to make, but rather that be would keep both his • emoluments and his profetlion ; and to thole who gave him a contrary counfel, well might he exclaim " Oh, fave me from my friend:, I can myfelf take care of my enemies !" With refpea to the comparifon made between the Right Hon. Gentleman and Lord Athburton, the cafes were totally different. 'That Gentleman, when Mr. Dunning, was at the top of a protection, of which he was the ornament, when he was called up to the Houfe of Peers without a place —and if the Duchy of Lancafler bad not been af figned him he mutt have had for his fupport a pen• firm from the public purfe. He, however. accepted the fituation for life, on the condition of relinquithing it, fo Piton as the great objet of his profettional views was open, namely, the Chief Jufticethip of the King's Bench; but notwithltanding the fneers which had been call this night upon that Noble Lord, in al lotion tohis parliamentary condua,inbringing for ward a Refolution, " that the influence of the Crown had increafed, was increafing, and ought to be diminith ed," he thought the circumftance highly honourable to his citaraaer, and fuch as ought not to deprive him of the favour of his Sovereign, for only withing to curb that increafed influence of the Minifters of the Crown, which added nothing to the comforts, the honour, or the authority of the Monarch. And he thought the Crown more faithfully and honourably tested by the into, fuch as him, who brought forward this refolution, and that they were more truly the fupporters of the conftitutional prerogative of the Soy ereign, titan the men who could advice the mea fure now in debate. It was extremely painful to him to make any comparifons that might be thought to wear an invidious alpeCt to the Right Honourable . Gentleman, but he recolleaed, that ever fince be was a Member of that Houfe, he was moldy in office. He had been' Solicitor General under Mr. Pitt, add Attorney General under Lord Sidmouth ; and here he begged leave to pay his tribute of praife to the upright, pure, and honourable conduct of that Noble Lord'as it had been explained this night, when under the adminiftratron of Mr. Pitt, his Lorsithip might have had the place for lite, which it was now in comical plation to confer upon the new Chancellor of the Exchequer, had his honourable fcrurles permitted him to become the instrument of limitation to the Prerogative and conflitutional influence of his Royal Matter : and he really thought it a great pity that tome ample provilion for lite was not made to a man, who to obey the call of :Lis Sovereign, by accep dog of an arduous and precarious fituation, fur rendered the Chair of that Houle, which he filled for to many years, in a manner that junified him in clnfidering it a certainty for his life. But thit a Right Hon. Gentleman, who, after exercifing his lungs fur a few months on the Oppolition Bench, and who now had returned once more to that balmy and bleffed nation the Treafury Bench, thould be only enticeable to the acceptance of the chief poll there, by the addition of another place and finecure of equal Calm y for life, was Come proof to thew the Right Hon. Gentleman had tome bodings that there was force little lack of permanency in official power of the per. throat knot betides tlwe emoluments of tine o ffice . to forts he had Joined, and that be requited ferrite addi , buy him into the peril of becoming Charletilor or the Exchequer. He could not, howeirer, lee the nee,f lity for this, nor admit the impr.ffibility of dine y other Gentleman•fic fur the lifuation. He wouid hot pretend to ri.ckon how many led or (pare tlvornies General the new istirittery had in theirfiri:e. tor 11 - ,w many Mailers of the Rolls they had by them in time, not ufed up, but, as to Chancellors of the .I::l:c!iegiier, he thought they were the very things wrier widch the Houle fwarmed. His N ible Friend lad rin co,n ee brought forward a plan of Finance, under which the country would certainly have been, tor a time. borthened with taxes nee:Miry to fuppo•t with effe& the contea in which we are coootged, and Li which, •if we failed, we fhnnld hav e leave to polterity ; hut if we fucceeded, we (honk) (till have to bequeath them every thing valuable and dear to Britons. But what was the conl_girei c • - Chancellors of Exchequer Ratted up in every quarter of the Houle, with new fyßems of Finance iu their hands, each crying out, " Your plan i• nothing, ! Look here, what a plan I have got! this is cut (tom the true mulberry tree, no counterfeit all your !" Even the gallant Officer over the way (Sir James Pulteney) feemed to a& .Minitters, " Why don't vovt call upon me forfora plan of Finance i" It was palling • ftrangs that the new Minifters could not find a man converfnt in the four rules of arithmetic, and com petent to a little plaulibility in flatemerris, to make a Chancellor of Exchequer, without paying a high bounty to a moth excellent Lawyer, an admit - 141e Attorney General, the fummit of wire Cc atnbi ion i t was to fill that office, but who never opened his lips upon the fubjea of Finance—to beeozne Chancellor of the Exchequer ! Really, after Otto: makino, the Attorney General a Chancellor of the Exchccrier, he thould not be forprifed if they converted the gall Officer into an Attorney General. Mr,. S•eiii.lan concluded by obferving, that his Isfajetty's late Mi. Miters went out of office without taking; a firilling by places for life, whilst the Country could not get a Miniltry to (fleeced them, without buying them ati enormous hotimiec. Mr. JOHNSTONE explained, by raying, he never did employ the Hononrable Gentleman to negotiate for him, becaufe he knew he was too bury negociat ing for himfelf and his family ; and that he never did leek any office of the late Mmitters with a Ihriling fa• lary annexed, but tendered his tort ices t..) his country without fee. Mr. SHERIDAN admitted the latter lA, an added, that the only negotiation he had Seen engaged , in on his own account, was one in whielt a Right Hon. Friend of his had obferved to him, tfiat after a Parliamentary life of 27 years, he never had obtained any previlion ; and that Miniftw, very honourably to themfelves. and without his knowledge or &o no , had refolved to make for him a permanent provironi, fomething like that in difccffion, but de• clined. Mr. SIMEON admitted the light and the duty of the Honk of Conkmons to advile the King ; :Li l o the propriety, on general principles, of rout for life places tifually held during pleafure. On . general ground, or at any other time, would t . .)p. port it—but in the prefent initance, he thought to e refolution would Item perfonally poirred ; alit hce, therefore, could not give it his thought it would be an impediment in ;he way forming forte .^a.d.niniftration ; whi&l ci; curnite. t : would tend to create anarchy. Mr. FULLER was :worintt the motion. Mr. W ELBERFORCE had a high opinion of his Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Perceval) and i na gined he would have mode, ed this debate tr.oeceffarv, had he (Mr. Perceval) not thought re!l[rizioi. , his ',re tentions to the Office in the Duch?. looked like conceding the matter from intimidation. He ( Mr. Wilberforce) did not approve of the difpofition of lift.!t places for lite, and notwohitanding his refpal for the individual immediately concerned, he ihould vote for the motion. The MASTER of the ROLLS wigged the queftion had rather been brought fur ward as a general princi - pie, than in the perfonal way in which it mutt be con fidered. It was a contiitutional quellion indifcreetly entangled with private coe,fider ations. The cafe of the application to his Majetty not to difprife o f the office in the Duchy for life, 'prior to the 2.oih of Ja nuary, did not at all apply to the prefent. little could the argument for this inlet ference wiill the Prerogative be fratadcel or. an; of Mr. Put ke's. His propofal,was to abolith all places dependent on the feparation of the Duchy from the Crown : he did not propufe to abolith the office of Char.cellur cf that Duchy. Lard HOWICK was not inclined to enter in; the difeullion this night, but he war d: 'erred fro rl his intention of preferving lilence, by what fell fro t the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman who Ipoli;: fall. .tie teemed to object to the prefent motion. becaufe, on the fpur of the occallor, in a oat - Ocular ingtance, it was diteaed to apply general limits to the prerogative. What was the motion.? It recpwelied his n. to difpofe of this particular office for a pc,iod longer than was ufual. It was a conflituti omit maxim, that of the ancient places, the Crown had not the appropriation for life, if fuck places had not been ordinarily fo granted. Then this motion contained advice to the Sovereign, not to do that which he was not entitled to do in the legitimate er emite of his prerogative. Many places, Paid the Right Honourable and Learned Gentleman, tray now be granted during life which before were mily granted during pleafure. If the King could grant the Office of Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancathi.r during life, why might he not that of Chancellor of the Exchequer, and that of Lord High Chan. cellor of England? He (Lord Howick) believed, that the Right Honourable and Learned Gentleman was accuftomed to look up with veneration to the (pi nions of Lord C•fke, and what were the fentirtiersts of holdene void ur b ir c ig cA l u if fe e tc that eminent perfon on this fubjed ? His word s w a re thefe : " Some ((ays he) have'gotten it by letters patent rttr N i ‘ ng ,iie)) will, ; and but it on w e as fo fir term d an an d : nt calk.: mutt be granted as it had been ac cuftom ed." 'I - hi , , then, was no limita'inn to the Prerogative, but it was the advice of the Houfe as to the exercife of it, as it was ufed in the belt time . Evgn the grant to Lord Afhburton, under the re ftrifted form in which it was made, was difpnied by a Learned Member who was Bill a Member of th-i Hon,e, who did move a rcfolutioa on the fubjea.—