Star. — London, England, 1811-01-01 00:00:00

f _, . .- . , -.-- _______,..—___ _____ -- _ ____ _____ t _ • , - si ' • . --e - • • 4 , • 1 ' a .NS • - . 4 . . . . . in those re. his Majesty to recover at a atom oeritrd-fnern titers .4 t o ile ignotance ae to the'initure of his Mejesty's dis- ire should be weak far any chg .° //kith, by is- I sent, and on aComparison of what a was intended to arenidgntbraetrtithieorensiv:oicthinreyndterhisagneicneosiaurrydaomnyeetidecylfonteet 'AT —that wtlle he should. be toder. and as to the probagility of its duration, that from the established precedent. I Maintain that risitice, might thwart the restoration of his Majesty do in 1788 with what had been s hine in 180 I to l c ! 1 thine who imagined that his Majesty would recover there are no particular objections as to the plan at .to power, or might thwart the ex . ercise of that power led to conclude that the last 2 4 2 years of. hte life had - .4 at all, were con s idered as sanguine in the extreme.— present proposed, but that the objections to the s pews. when resumed. I shall propose, therefore, Sir, the diminished rather than increased the attac neent of • Although Dr. Willis and other medical expres. at present proposed were equally cogent whentadeltita I following Resolutions: his subjects I freely admit that this coats deretien std their expectation that that recovery might take ced against the plan of 1788. I come now, Sir, to 1 " That it is the opinion of title Committee, that, for a time to ought not to have any weight if oppoiltd by ; y greet • place at no very distant period, yet I am confident tonsiaer the objection made to every diminution o f be limit e d, 4 h e power to b e g i ven to his Royal Highness the constitutional oection to the measure ; hat it en s that those who recollect with me that period, will re- the royal prerogative in the hands of the Regent. The rse an e e d" n of wb an aievT it e o z r ' constitutional objection existed in 1788, no censtitu- member that th e general impression on the public argument is, that we are not to presume the existence dign i ty 6l °f or Nik es ' ? " billabbt at th e e Xteld rA to to the an g ; ' err[ ch person or persons as may perform some singular naval . tional objection can exist at present ; and surely, sir, mind wes, that his Majesty's case, if not wholly hope- of any prerogative which is not necessary for the be- or militazy achievement. I we cannot be less anxious at the present then at the -.less, was nearly so. So indefinite was the expectation nefit of the people, and, that if necessary for that pur.. e Teat it is the opinion of this Committee, that, for a time to : former period, to act on principles of the most Julica!tr attention to the feelings of our beloved afatiarai, and of recovery, that the period at which the restrictions pose, it taught not to be limited or restrained. But b at e leittnwitieidat,etvheetstirepoywet7inshnallonrottneitther granting ra or i au rig y ° l a c! Ott the Regent was to terminate was left entirely nn- can any thing be So extravagant as to contend thatto spare him the mortification of finaing. that it bad salary, a-premium, for any other term than during his Majesty's' defined ; and it was understood that during the because a prerogative is eventually necessary for the pleasure, except such effice, as are by law required to be granted not been thought proper to treat hint with all tine -' lll course ef the Regency it might become a subject of benefit of the people, that it cannot be limited for the far life er during pod behaviour.* , consideration to which tae had formerly, beeu consi- ParliamentAry consideration whether the restrictions period I have mentioned without injery . 1 Can any tt I apprehend, Sir, that as the same general rea. ' dered entitled." • on the pawer of Regent should be taken off tn. thing be. so extravagant as to contend that because soning applies to the last resolution as to that which ! The first Resolution was then read by the Chairman. c o 'rhe Committee will, however, feel the the Crown ought not to be stripped of its power respects the peerage, I need not trouble the House by I The Hon.W. LAMBE said, he coulti by no moats greet distinctien between the power of Parliament to of making Peers, that power may not be limited for urging any thing further on the subject. There has agree in the principles laid down by the Right on: review this subject at fie period when the restrictions a short p eriod, when the royal authority is in the b een an alteration in the law since the year 1 78 8 , , Gentleman in the speech which hohae just delivered. expire, a nd a t a period when they will still continue. hand of a Regent ? Let us argue the case retrospec- with respect to his Majesty's personal and private i The Right Hon. Gentleman h a d opened so the H ot t a? 1n the latter case, the three branches of the Legisla. tively. During the last four years, that is &sing the ' property, which renders it necessary to change the a plan in which he meant to make his Royal Highness lure must concur in putting an end to the restrictions; period that the present Administr a tion had been in nature of the Resolution on that subject- Instead, the Prince of Wales Regent of the Realm He hal in the former, they must concur in restoring them.— office, with the exception of Peers created for naval , therefore, of the Resolution agreed to in 1788, I pro. . declared that he considered the Regent to be placca It is probable then the limitation on the granting of and military services, only two new Peers had been pose the following : in the eituatiort of Ste Ward, or Trustee, to the Kittle; Peerage in the year 1738 arose from the apprehension made! What just reason, therefore. can there be for e That it is the opinion of this Committee, th at such parts of which any one would Suppose ought to eutitle him to that the jeelousy of the Lords might otherwise secure supposing that the Constitution and the country will his Majesty's private property as are nut vested in trustees eon the enjoyment of all those prerogatives with %aids the contine Alice of the restrictions during the whole •be endangered, if no Peers were allowed to be created be vested in trustees for the benefit of his Majesty." i the King was ingested ; and without which, it would period of the Regency ; but if we limit the restriction for the next twelve months ? Again, during the Ad- " The particular provisions for carrying this reso- be impossible the Prince of Wales putt! be -his teal to° twelve months, when these twelve months have ministration which preceded us, and which remained lution into effect, will be detailed in the Bill which it representative. The Right Honourable Gesalenten elapsed, that restriction and all other restrictions will in office A year, eleven or twelve Peers were made.— is my intention to submit to the House. They will of had _talked a' great deel of the King's political ca expire, nelesa every branch of the Legislature concurs .I do not alledge this as an impropriety-1 never heard course be affected by the act of ISi7r, 96, said to wh a i ll ch th l h at v •i ae t he (Mr: La What he could not meant by say . I f there werelitical cap teany in providing for their continuance. Thi s, Sir, is a it alled g ed as an impropriety ; bat I mention it to already alluded.—l have now, seems to ale to be necessary to say with respect to . 'sewers attached to this litical ca it 4 the snare: iel distinction between the present plan and that shew the probability, that in the event of another of 1788. I have been led to think th a t the duration ! of Administration (if another change should the first four resolutions. If I tho u fit it probable King, they might perhaps be in their full existence : change of the restrictions which I recommend is not unreaso- , take place) a large creation of Peers might be recom- that we should go into thc consideration of the fifthbut with respect to all those powers which depend p ,ble. It appears, by a reference to the testimony of mended. Is tans desirable ? It has been insinuated, resolution this evening, I would state my sentiments lon his Majesty's judgment, they were dead to aa ad the Physicians, that in their opinion the best trite- 1, Sir, by Gentlemen on the other side of the House, upon it. However, it does not seem to me likely that intents and purposes, ai if he were actually demised; lien of the probable continuance of his Majesty's dis- i that it was ay no means clear that myself and my we shall do so, and I think it would be better to ab- and therefore, as to them, the House were bound order is a consideration of what took Place on former ' colleagues had any merit io this abstinence heap the stain at present from any such statement. (Go on. to hand them over to tate Prince of WA:es, as Re unhappy occasions of a similar nature. On that view ! creation of Peers, but that it was probable that his Go on! from the Opposition Benches.) As a wish has Fent, exactly the same as the King had held them. of the subject, coupled with the alteration that in the ; Majesty , observing how the power had been exercised, been expressed by the Gentlemen on the other side fhe precedent of 1788 was much relied on by the of the Physicians the increased ma of the had determined for the (mere to take it into his own ra lly - would p r oceed, I will state my views gene- Right Honourable Gentleman • but in that also he not trticularly because I repeat, that Ido differed from him entirely • for it WAS %vault) itt g . a opinion ige Royal Patient may occasion in the period of his reco- keeping, and not to allow such a number of Peers to Very, I ground my proposition. It appears to me, be made. Those who assumed this ground, had no that if the House should agree to limit the restrictions right to assume it. But it makes good for my ar to twelve months, they will afford his Majesty a much gument ; for if his Majesty thought proper to take longer period than that occupied by his recovery in this power into lii; own keeping, and to resist the fur any former case ; they will give him whatever may tiler creation of Peers, where will be the expediency of be advantageous in the change of seasons, they will omitting to provide, in the proposed bill, against the allow a latitude 'sufficient but not too extensive. I I abuse of an authority which his Majesty is so desirous • em very ready to admit that on this subject there may should not be abused ? I deny, however, the assump . be a dilfereoce of opinion. Some Gentlemen may tion. The opinion of his Majesty concurring with think that the period of limitation ought to be longer, that of his advisers, has led to thrabstinent use which others, that it ought to be much shorter. This, how- has been. made of this part of the royal prerogative. ever, seems to me established, that, for a certain pe- There is surely good ground to provide that this pre riod, we should ingraft into the Bill a limitation of caution, which has existed for four years, and it may the restrictions. There may be some who, agreeing be easily supposed not without substantial reasons, in the value of restrictions at a fto mer period, may shall not be destroyed in four months. The Hon. conceive that what in 1783 was advisable, is, from Gentlemen opposite have said, that the plan which I the change of circumstances, not wise, etpLdient, or ; propose is degrading to the monarchy and disrespect. even . admissible at the present moment. Nothing, ful to the illustrious personages who are immediately however, of change of circumstances occurs to me, concerned. How ? Can it be said that any restric. Sir, except what may arise from the maturer age of tions of the description which I propose, introduced his Royal Highness the Prince of Wales--.from the for the purpose of preserving to the Monarch his present being a time of war, instead of being a time rights on his restoration to health, is degrading to his of peace— and from any supposed alteration in the Majesty t Is the anxiety of Parliament that nothing temper of the people, which may render it necessary should be done to interfere with his Majesty's power to guard the Royal authority with peculiar vigilance, : on his recovery disrespectful, or does it evince any • which Parliament take in _ . . - . _ . at el. tune when attempts may be anticipated to dimi- . th ing but the lively interest .. snish its extent. Let us consider these circumstances. '. the Monarch as well as in the Monarchy ? Still more ..And,. first, with regard to the maturer age of his strongly do I deny the imputation of intended disre- Royal Highness. It surely cannot be maintained, .spect.towards his Royal Highness the Prince of Wales. that in 1788, when the fleince was 26 er 27 years IBy whom, Sir, is this is ?Isit by those who are f,of age, there could be any doubt of the propriety 1 so fond of talking of the love of liberty, and of the of entrusting his Royal Highness with the Royal danger of trus6ng uncontrolled power in the hands ... ..aiuthority on the score of his youth , when it is VA- of any indiieidotal? Is it to be endured that we are . *tiered, that had there been a. demise of the Crown . now to - be - told by these m en, that when power is his Royal Highness would have been fully entitled to placed in the hands of art officer, it is an instilt to the . that authority. Nor does in my mind the difference officer to provide that the office shall not be abused? between peace and war make any difference in the. What is the nature of the trust? Doubtless the pre question before us. I allow that there are preroga. rog(thves of the Crown are placed in the hands of byes which may be restrained in peace with less on. ) the Crown as a trust for the people. They will be convenience than in war, but'those prerogatives arc placed in . the hands of the Regent as a trust for not of the number which I propose to restrain. Is 1 the people too ; lout they will also be placed in . there any reason because we happened to be at war, his hands as a trust for his Majesty. We are that the Regent should for the net twelve months called upon to make provision that both trusts shall be enabled to make as many Peers, and to grant as ,be duly executed. We are called upon to restrain many places and pensions for life, as.he please ? Is the mal-exercise of both. Sit, I. am ready to push there any thing in the nature of war which demands this argument to any extent. If a reference be made ' that the Regent should exitcise this po w er ? Th a t : to the *-- --* - that the King can do no wrong, i the f • • principle that principle be extended to the declaration that . Prince of Wales can do no wrong, I will ask in re ply, if they may not both be ill advised ? Give me leave to say, Sir, that when we are told, as we have lately been, that in consequence of the age of his . . .sly- pa. - not think it probable ye - shall enter into a discussion on this part of the subject to-night. The Resolution relates to the Royal Household ; it will be as follows : " That it is the opinion of this Committee, that the care of his Majesty% Royal Person, during the continuance of Lis Majesty's illness, shall be committed to the care of the Queen's Most Ex cellent Majesty; and that, for a time to be lingted, ter Majesty shall have the power to remove front, and to nominate and aps •i point such persons as she shall think proper, to the several Wheal in his Majesty's Household; and to dispose, order, and manage , all other matters and things relating to the care of his Majesty's Royal Person, during the time aforesaid ; and that, for the better enabling her Majesty to discharge this important task s it is also i expedient that a Council shall be appointed to advise and wait , her Majesty in the several matters aforesaid ; and with power, 1 from time to time, as they may see cause, to examine upon sub, the Physicians and others attending his Majesty's Person, tomb ing the state of his Majesty's health, and all matters relative thereto." " The Committee vi ill see, Sir, from this Resolution, that the care of his Majesty's Person is to be commit ted, as of course every eye will conceive it ought to be committed, to her Majesty the Queen during the continuance of the Regency ; but that her Majesty's power over the household is to be limited, with a view to the same considerations as those which in duced the proposed limitations in the other resolu tions. Some variation may probably with advantage, take place in the ar 'gement of the Council to advise the Regent should possess complete controul over the arply—that he should possess complete controul (as . fax at the royal authority extends) over the public ,parse -that he should possess generally all the great - 7atives of the Crown—that he should be ena that very first and essential authority adherin. , ." to all precedents, namely, that of experience. Bus even if there were those who looked up to the gi'vat Men of that day, who were the framers of that pre cedent, they should remember the great difference of this country, both from time and situation. He then adverted to the argument of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in which lie had said, that one of the great objections raised on his (Mr. Lambe's) side of the House was, that then we were at mace, and now we were at war. The Right Hon. Gentle man had mentioned this, and carried on his argument upon it in such a strain of levity, as not only astonished him, but (when the situation of the country was consi dered, and the numerous evils which that war had en tailed upon us) must, in his mind, appear to the House highly indecorous. He, for his own part, could not but remember, that since that time many gloomy and momentous years had passed away, which had all, more or less, brought upon us the heaviest misit.r- - tunes. He could not but recollect, however lightly-On Right Honourable Gentleman might think 41 it, that we were then at peace—that the storm of' desolation attendant on the French Revolution bad not then burst forth—and when he considered the melancholy effects which were the consequences of that Revolu- appoint— _ and,asstst her Majesty. In the former Bill, four per sons were appointed for that purpose; some of whom were specified by name, and others by the offices which they held in the householl ; the consequence of which was, that those of the latter description, be ing removeable at pleasure, the Council was rendered not permanent. It appears to me expedient to cor rect this evil, although it is not necessary to intro duce in the Resolution the names of the individuals whom I shall propose in the Bill. If the provision by which her Majesty is to have the controul of the household were to be a permanent arrangement, it might possibly be open to some objection ; but when it is considered that twelve months will be the utmost extent of its continuance, and that we may fairly in dulge a hope of its speedier termination—when we also consider the nature of the household, and a va riety of peculiar circumstances connected with it—l am sure the Committee will revolt at the idea of adopting any measure by which, if his Majesty should recover in six weeks after the passing of the Bill, hr will find that the controul of the household has been tion, he thought it was a most fortunate circumstance for the country, that the precedent of 1788 had not been acted upon—for, in what a situation must the Regent of this country have been placed, in the hung of so much turbulence and fury, shackled and fet tered as he would have' been, by the provisions of that Bill ? Could the House then suppose, that at the present moment, when this country stood in a more perilous and critical 'ituation than it had done at any antecedent period of our history, it would be politic or proper to appoint a Regent, raked and restficted in any of those prerogatives which were giveh to the King, as well for the benefit ot the peo ple as of himself, and without which the govercign authority of this country could not be safely main tained ? Why, in considering this measure, which melancholy necessity called en the House to adopt, should it entertain suspicions as to the conduct of his Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, on whom it was intended to confer tke Regency ? rt was not his intention on the present occasion, to go into any eu logium on the personal character of that illustrious - thought removed. With respect therefore to the controul of the household, whatever may be the future arrange- Meats of Parliament, all that the Committee are now calkd upon to agree to is, that for a limited time that 'utroul shall be in her Mai 's hands. With re- Prince ; but he . . it was unworthy of the Hollie to give way . to jealousy of any kind, as to aiy person it might think proper to appoint Regent. The Right Honourable Gentleman had talked a great deal About the powers of the King, and had shewn a wonderful •_ _ preroga. - bled to dissolve Parliament, if the dissolution of Par li.tment, would impart greater efficiency to his Go vernmem—all these are positions which I admit, and for which indeed 1 am ready to contend ;* but with the,power of making Peers, the war has nothing to elo.beyond that which I have already stated I shall propose to provide. In war, cases certainly may oc cur in which the House and the public might lament that an instant opportunity was not afforded of con feirring a mart of distinguished honour on the hero of an achievement, who might, perhaps, not live to renjoy it it it were postponed for a twelvemonth.— Amidst the brilliant and important efforts of our navy and army, some action may occur in which it may be most desirable immediately to reward the gallant Commander under whom it may be performed, who May perhaps be wounded on the ocean or in the field, and who, if the honour be withheld for a twelvemonth, may expire ere he receive it as the solace of his de parting life. With respect to the remaining consi derations, Sir, namely, the danger arising to the Exe cutive Government t rota those who may be presumed more or less disposed to attempt the diminution of the royal authority, I s confess that 1 have not the least apprehension on that ground. I contend, th a t if any thing could render it impos , ible that this or the other House of Parliament should receive with countenance or favour any attempt to abridge the roya} power, it would be more especially the restric tions of that power which it is proposed for a time to impose. I think it would be she unanimous senti silent, that at such. a period any proposition of that nature ought to be postponed. lam persuaded that kAu no o n e would wish to attack the royal a ut h orit y , a t e time when the Crown did not p o sses s ' a l l the eller ie% necessary to its maintenance and defence. I st, therefore, Sir, I have proved, that the assertion l e :Lange in circumstances since the year 1788 \sups a gliatuit io our proceedings, is unfounded 1 . I I 111 I gi t . . Majesty, the state of his sight, and *other circtim.! cons ...iajesty' , anxiety to preserve Close powers entire for his Ma stances rendering it desirable for him to live in spect to that part of the fifth Resolution, which relates jesty ; but he ought to consider, that the poweas of a more retired manner than that by which he for.l to the.care of his Majesty's Person, there can be no merly used to gratify his affection..' e subjects, the doubt that during the continuance of the Regency the King and the powers.of the country must be the people may not be perfectly satis fi ed of the actual t that trust will be allowed to remain with the Royal same ; and the House ought not to agree to any *re recovery of his Majesty whenever that iecovery may I Persona g e in whom, b y the resolution, it will be vested. strictions which, in endeavouring to save the one, happily takeplace—give me leave to say , S i r , th at ! At the ex p iration therefore of the period of limitation should in an equal or greater degree, injure those when we are toff' this, it is proper we should reflect 1 P..rliament will doubtless take some steps on the sub- of the other. The Right Hon. Gentleman h a d l a id ' very seriously on the steps which we ought to pursue, . ject. For although it may not be advisable that after great stress, in the course of his argument, on the Every man will take care how he acts on such a con- the expiration of that limitation her Majesty should power of creating Peers having been formerly s o sideration of the subject. But kis possible that such ; retain the controul over the whole of the household, much abused : the Right Honourable G ese tl em e i th,l an opinion as that to which I have alluded , .may enter yet some arrangement will be necessary with respect himself been one of almost every administration by the minds of those whose province it may be to advise to the immediate establishment of their Majesties. which this abuse had been exercised ; and, therefore, the Regent ; and it is possible that the Regent may ; This, however, is a subject, the detail of w hich ma y . an y animadversions on that subject came with rather be induced by such opinions not to give credit to the be more advantageously entered upon at a future pe- an ill grace from him. Butt, on this point, he, (Mr. recovery of his Majeste. 1 state this, Sir, only as al riod than at the present moment. At the present Lambe) differed with him entirely; he did not think possible case, which, if Parliament did not contern.! moment, we have onle to decide , whet h e r or not her this encrease of the peerage had at all injured the plate, they would not do their duty. We are called Majesty shall, for a time to be limited, have the con- country—on the contrary, he was convinced that our upon to provide such regulations as may make the re . t ro u l of the ro y al household ? If, according to the opi. Legislature had been greatly benefited by it. He sumptiod of power by the King easy, and the exer . i.eion of the G entlemen o pp osite, no p ower whatever thought it an useful power, and that any attempt to limit it at present would be on grounds that had no cise of that power, when resumed, unembarrassed.— i over the household should be vested in her Majesty, foundation ; for in fact, no restriction could be in:- (xi cry of Hear, Hear, from the Oftitoeitiox Beachee.)-1 the conseqnence would be, that if his Majcsty were to No clamour, Sir, shall ever induce me to retract this 1- recover a fortnight after the passing of the Bill, he posed on that part of the prerogative, which Li:d not opinion—no clamour shall induce me to abstain from would find his household deranged, and his whole oas much to af f ect and weaken the power of t!l• ng, as that of the Regent. He then pruceed.!d to proclaiming it as a consideration of the highest impor t. domestic establishment subverted: 'I am persuaded, e' tance, to which cur attention should be pectiliarle- di. therefore, that Parliament will be of opinion, that the n ice the resolution which relates to the Kin s rected, and from which we should not be deterred by 1 royal p ower over the household should be continued household, to which he felt as many objections as he any apprehension that our motives may be misinter- 1 for a given period. I confess, Sir, that if there is any did to the other; it lay, however, in a very narrow preted. • With this view of the subject, it seems to part of the provisions of the plan of 1788, which I compass, and it wotfid not be necessary for him to rme to be incumbent, that while we give the power , i am mo re p articularl y anxious to carr y into effect than take up much Ofehe time of the House to expl in his we should give it iu such a manner as to sliew to the I another, it is that which respects the domestic ar- objections to it. He alluded, particularly, to the I,f. Officer to whom it is given, that it is not his own au- rangements of his Majesty's Household. It.would be flees of the household, and begged to call the atten thority. but that he is a trustee,for another. In every most ungracious when, after experiencing the blessings lion of the House to the circumstance, that they were case of regency, but more particularly where the Re- of his Majesty's reign for 28 years, Parliament in 1788 chiefly offices of splendour. No man could be more gent is the next successor to the Crown, it is the in. adopted as provision on this subject simiial > to that ready than himself to support the real and necessary dispensible duty of Parliitmeat to mark that the power which.' p r opose, but without limit, a provision to splendour of the Crown, •or of the Monarch who is not the Regent's, but•the King's. It is, therefore,l which 'they were prompted by respect for his Majes. wore it ; but, unfortunately.•the Monarch is not ie a Sir, that I think that while the Regent should be ty's character, and tenderness for his Mejesty'stteel. state to enjoy that splendour; and nothing CMP be armed with all these prerogatives beneficial to tbs logs.. I say, Sir,it would be most ungenerous, 1/.IC more evilest:, than that these officers so to , be ap , ' , • ' . - - ,i . „