Star. — London, England, 1816-03-14 00:00:00

I I 1 I ' , a - the purpose of ascertaining the precbie expense 6f a' certain number of men. He wished u „banw what would nagintain a certain number of Kirines it after havrng . received which information, he might be able to bring forward his motion for a reduction. The Hon. Member then moved, H Thattbere be laid before the House an account of the . annual saving that would take place in the proposed reduction of 3000 men." The motion was agreed to. Lord PALMERSTON observed, that the Com mittee on the Mutiny Bill stood for yesterday, and as it had been postponed for more than once, he hoped the House would not oppose its sittin4 at present. The order had lapsed, but he thonght that, consider. ing the short time that remained before the Bill ex. pared, the H re would not object to his proposition. Mr. G R.ENFELL thought that his motion re specting the Bank should take precedence of that of the Noble Lord. The SPEAKER said, that there wai a motion to be made respecting the defaulters frlm a former call. 'When that was disposed of, the Hon. Gentleman's motion would have precedence. The Committee on the Mutiny Bill and the motion of Mr. GREKTZLL were understood, therefore, t 3 be set aside till after the motion respecting the defaulters had been called over. _ _ blr C. MONCK wished to know wlllt had been Jose in consequence of an order which stood upoli the Journals for a return of alterations in the s4 l4pes of (lacers belonging to the Navy Board. ' Mr. CROKE R did not remember that there was any order in the wards of the Honourable Baronet upon the buinals; but he could inform the House, that he had that morning received a very trolorni. nous account of alterations in the salaries of the Navy Board. Sir C. MONCK read the order from the Journals. the purport of which was, that there should be laid before the House an account of all alterations and augmentations of the salaries of the Navy Board since the Ist of January, 1815. Mr. CROKEI( thought that the most convenient way of Lying these Papers before the House would be to give an account of the increase or diminution there might have been, without putting down the name of each individual, pr of entering into any great minutenessiti the retti.n ; for if that were the case, it would be some time yes before it could be laid before the House. Sir C. MONCK wished particularly to have those Papers laid before the House. He hoped the in crease of salaries had not been so frequent as to ' make the account of it so dreadfully voluminous. He wished likewise to know what had beendone towards snaking up the Recounts of the Greenwich Hospital Estates fir 1813 ? Mr. CKOKER said, that those accounts could not be made ont without considerable time elapsing, but even► thing would be done that would forward them. Mr. GOOCH brought up a Petition from certain Landholders, Farmers, and others, in the County of Suffolk, against the Property Tax. - He considered the country in a most deplorable state, and ct.uld scarcely express his opinion in the strong terms which he could wish to the upon that subject. He did not think that his Majesty's Ministers were sufFniently in. formed upon the lamentable situation of the agricul ture, and the general stagnation of. the trade of the kingdom, though he would give them credit for their intentions to do as much is possible for the relief of the• landed interest. Having said thus far, he now e tow to a more painful duty; that of declaring, that on the stibint of the Property Tax be conkknot alto gether agree with his constituents. He thought that nothing could be better as a mode of taxation than a modified Property T.4x. He was sorry to see that any motives but the most honourable were Attributed to these who wished to continue it, but he thought that with all its sins and imperfections on its head it was one of the best taxes that could be levied. He had attended all the discussions which had taken place upon the subject, and he still remained in his original opinion, that for a time it would be touch better if this I'u should be•continued. It,however, bethought that Government had any intention of continuing the Tax longer than the time specified, or of making it perpetual, he should have voted against k with the greatest pleasure; and if he had any idea that they intended to continue the peace establishment longer than it was absolutely necessary, he should have voted against it from the beginning; but poor and impo veihrhed as this country was, slit ought still to stand forward in support of national honour and national independence. He was sure that no mode of taxation could be resorted to with so little inconvenience. He wished that the War Malt Tax should be taken off, for its abolition would be generally beneficial, and without it the lower orders would be able to procure a cheap and wholesome beverage, instead of having recourse to noxious and smuggled spirits or concealed an .1 illicit hrewines. Sir J. C. H IPPESLEY considered that there were other means ot relieving the country besides the taking off of the Property Tax. The heavy pressure of the poor rates might be considered by the House; some modifications might be made in the tithes; the church dues might be diminished; and the highway rates :night be lessened. For his part, he was an advocate Ivr the Tax upon Property, which might press equally upon the people. He did not wish to hear that the laud alone was to bear the burdens of taxation. Mr. GOOCH 'explained.. He was sorry that he had been misundermed by the Honourable Baronet. It was far front his intention to wish. that the land should bear the whole burdens of the State. .le had tatty expressed his satisfaction at the conduct of Mi nisters towards the landed interest in general, and he hoped that there might always be other resources be sides the land for the support of the country. Mr. BARING thought it was evident that the ar guments which the Honourable Member had been using had had more effect upon himself than upon his constituents. He still continued in his opinion, tirtt, the Property Tax was altogether inconsistent with the liberties and comfort of the subject. The lattoed interest were, he believed, considerably an. s . s,rd b y inquiries in consequence of the Taxi but they could have no idea of what took place in cases w, . ere precarious incomes were liable to an inquisi. tort al investigation. The Tenant's Tax was not w:.oley to be giv e n up, as he understood, and he could not but chink that the duration of the Tax upon Pro perty and income fur two years would tempt Minis. . . to Iptiniktar to coatimr it 'stilt (*Asa, * to !make Itplwsattent. • • 000 CH had oriented several Petitlens &Om . the same County ; but one of which had been directly against the Property Tax.' Some had petitioned againit the system of taxation in general—(Rears k m ay)....lle did not mean to say that the Property Tax was not included in these Petitions, but it bad net been particularly mentioned. After some observations from Mr. ROUND, the Pe tition was read and laid upon the T.ible. Sir W. GUISE presented a Petiti a from Broad way, against the Property Tax, and those on Milt, Leather, and Farming Horses.-1-Laid nn the Table. Mr. ATHERLEY stated,. that a Petition would have been presented from Southampton, had it not' been stolen from the room in which it had been depoe sited. The Honourable Member was about to submit a Motion upon the subject, when Mr. ROSE said, he had received an account of the progress of the unfortunate Petition which had just been mentioned. He believed that a meeting would have been held upon the subject about three weeks ago, but a reqnisition had not been drawn up on account of inability to trump up a sufficient num ber of names. About twenty or thirty respectable persons, however, had at length signed a Petition, which was left in a public.house, and the remaining signatures were furnished by paupers and children. Lord FOLKESTONE happened to be in South. amptun when the business relating to the Petition in question was transacted. It had 'sot been left for sig natures at what the Right Hotenuabie Gentleman called a public-house, but at one of the most re spectable inns, and he could safely say it had been signed by upwards of 400 people. It was then moved, " That toe Defaulten from the Call of the House of the Vitli of Feeraary, should be called over," which was agreed to, and the Clerk proceeded to read the list. Mr. Crickitt was excused from atending on IC. count of very urgent private business. On Mr. IVliitshed Ketoie's not answering, • Mr. W. WYNNE thought that as that Honourable Member was the father of the House, some indul gence ought to be she wit eirn. The SPEA KER .-64 Does the Honourable Mem. ber assign that as • reason for his non-attendance ?" Mr._W. WYNNE proposed that he should be ex cused on iteclunt of age, which was agreed to. On the motion "'That Mr. R. Latouc,;•e be taken into the custody of the Serjeant at isms," Lord FOLKESTONE moved, that he should be excused on account of distance ; and after some con versation it was agreed, that the Irish Members ab sent should appear in their places on Monday next. Mr. METHUEN gave notice that he should, on I Weduesday nest, move for a return of alt those offices which were held in peace and war with the same salary. Lord CASTLEREAGH gave notice of a Mes sage which he said might be expected shortly from the Prince Regent, which we supposed to be con- netted with the marriage of the Princess% Charlotte. Mr. TIERNEY moved, " Tuat there be laid be fore the House a Copy of the Order in Council of the 23d June, 1815, whereby it was decided that the t ' laties of the Secretary ef the Admiralty, and of the Under Secretary, should be continued the same in peace as in War. Mr. BROUGHAM held in his hand a Petition from Dumfries, in Scotland, against the increase of sasarics, the extravagance and the general system of Ministers. He was astonished to hear that, whilst Mi nisters bad put retrenchment and economy in their Master's mouth, that they should not only with to continue useless offices, but to increase the salaries attached to those offices, when all the necessaries of life were lower in price by 40 or 50 per cent. than formerl7. He was astonished that an Order in Council of Lord Spencer's, to snake the salaries of War Offices less in time of peace, should non in a period of almost general distress be overthrown, and rendered useless by an order to make the salaries the same in peace and in war. If a stop was not shortly put to such extravagance the country would be ruined, and economy would hardly for a moment avert its downfall. Sir G. WARRENDER considered the Honoura ble Member as condemning Ministers unheard. The question with respect to the salaries of the Secretaries would cote before the House in a few days, and what had been done concerning those salaries had been done from the advice of the Board of Revision. Mr. TIERNEY believed that Lord St. Vincent had wished to make as flinch reforni as possible in the naval- department, and the Board of Revision had endeavoured, as much as possible, to prevent all reform. Lord NUGENT thought that his Honourable and Learned Friend had not condemned Ministers a all. He had only said, that be hoped if such had been the case as had been stated, it would soon be remedied. Mr. BARING deprecated the system of increa• sing salaries, and he hoped that his Honourable Friend would take as mach care as he had hitherto done so expose extravagance. Lord CASTLEREAGH considered the Hon. Melnber on the other side as determined to question every measure of Government before it wag fairly before the House. He and his friends were always ready to meet the other sine on the fair ground of ar ginnent, but when any question was to be argued, when the distresses of the country were to be consi dered, they left their places, their occupations were gone, and their empty benches 'hewed how much they were in need of arguments. He wished to know what spirit of economy there had been manifested when some of the Honourable Members opposite had been in office, and when it was proposed to institute one hundred and fifty new offices for the improve. went of the revenue t Mr. METHUEN wished the House would re member that this was not a question between one party and another, but between Government and the country. Mr. PONSONEY 'wished that the Right Honour able the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was Se. cretary of the Treasury at the time the Noble Lord mentioned, would explain what the Noble Lord meant by the appointment of 150 officers. The Right Hon. Gentleman said, he and his friends were ready to argue on the grounds of economy. Indeed they seemed ready to do any thing with regard to economy but to practice it. For his part be did not like Com mittees where no benefit could be produced. The __ Lord said, Gentlemen tit that *de of the Ron* nifty came for the purpllnies of elang•ittr: He was HMO to bear his pare of this charge, eiPecially when he was backili by the unanimous voice Of the ' people from one end of the kingdom to the other; but he wished the bulges* merchantsi and farmers of the country, to know the compliment the Noble Lord paid them, when he said, that discussing their Petitions was only clamour. Really the Noble Lord's situation seemed to overcome both his temper and his sense, when he could bring himself to tell all the country, that their Petitions were nothing but cla mour, and that those who commented on them were only tlamonrers. Lord CASTLEREAGH would appeal to the House, whether he and his Honourable Friends did not treat the Petitions of the country with :he most respectful attention, as he knew they certainly were in duty bound to do. But he attributed the Right Honourable Gentleman's misrepresentation to his want of argiunenwer of better greunds of attack. He did not attribute clamour to any one outside the House ; but he certainly had said, sod still repeated, that there was mulch clamour inside. Sir JOHN NEWPORT referred fora proof of the Noble Lord's respectful attention to the Petitions of theipeople, and to his own words, ‘4 ignorant impa tience of taxation." Mr. VESEY FITZGERALD insisted that his Noble Friend's words were not eased in the sense at tributed to them. His Noble Friend had used the words not with respect to the feelings of the people, bet in deprecating the clamour of those who tried to raise in the people an impatience of that taxition - the. removal of which would be only productive of more oppressive burdens With respect to the increase of salaries, he did not think the charge came with the most peculiar grace from the opposite side of the House. If a First Lord of the Admiralty on coming into office' had taken care that his own salary should be increased by £2OOO per annum, he would appeal to the House whether the flietids of that Lord and the sharers in his Administration could, with the greatest degree of decency, tell the present Go-' vernment that they were only employed in increas ing salaries ? Mr. METHUEN explained. Mr. CROKER apologised for not having been in his place when this discussion commenced. He had only been at the Admiralty 011iee to see whether returns that had peen moved for were ready. An ()tiler in Council in ISIS had sanctioned a recom mendation of a Commission appointed for the pur pose, that the salaries of the Secretary and under officers of the it of Admiralty should be greater in time of war than of peace. In 1806 another Com mission was appointed to inquire into the salaries of the Officers of the Admiralty, and that Commission recommended that the salaries shottld not be higher in time of war than of peace : but this recommenda tion had also not btea acted on. So it rested till the last war with France, when the salaries were put on the same footing in time of peace and war, by' which the second Secretary cl the Admiralty had been dis missed. Now be could not see why an increase of the salary of the St cretary of the Admiralty should he particularly objected to, unless there was some peculiar reason for making him an exception in the general increase of salaries. Mr. TIERNEY allowed, that the filed salary of the Secretary of the Admiralty was a small one a but it was made up in time of war by emoluments. In Lord Spencer's time there was a fixed salary of £3OOO per annum in time of peace, and ,84000 in. time of war. It was just that it shook! be lower in time of peace than of war, because the duties of the office were less. Mr. CROKER said, that former Secretaries of the Admiralty had received from ten w £lB,OOO a year, and he did not think it very liberal in Lord Spencer to act as be had done. Mr. TIERNEY laid,. that before Lord Spencer's time the salary and emoluments were enormous in time of war, but hardly any thing in time of peace. Mr. FORBES thought the present an unfortunate time for the increase of salaries, when the distress of the nation was at such an height. Lord MILTON wished the original Order in Council, in Lord Grenvilk's Administration, should be laid before the House. Mr. CROKER said, it had been already laid be fore the House. Lord ALTHORPE said, that the salary of the First Lord of the Admiralty had been too small before Lord Grey's time, ani that the 42300 a year which he had added to it was lint too much. Mr. VESEY FITZGERALD was not the per son to arraign the conduct of the late Administra tion, or of Lord Grey, for whom he professed a high respect: but he asked from Honourable Gentlemen that justice towards others which they claimed for themselves. Mr. LOCKHART did not think the present state of the country could afford to pay public Officers on An increased scale of salary ; on the contrary, he was sure that if the prices of coin and other articles con tinued as low as they at present were, a reduction in the salaries of all public Office-c, and eves in the pay of the army, proportionate tr the low price of commodities, must take place. Sir GEORGE WAR RENDER said, that there was no Deputy Comptroller of the Nary at this in- stant ; but that the salary of the last was the same as before him. Mr. BROUGHAM said, a time would come for the trial of the Noble Lord ; but now he was on his trial himself. The Honourable and Learned Gen. demist then entered into a warm justification of his charge ; and argued that it could not be considered clamour when the facts were allowed. He did not think there was the greatest degree of candour in the attempt to divert the attention of the House from his charge, by an attack on an Administration in .which he bad no share. Here he defended Lord Grey's conduct at great length, and said, that that Noble Lord had acted in a tar mare fair and manly manner than Lord Melville. He concluded by thinking, that the arguments of Gentlemen at the other side only strengthened his charge, Mr. VESEY FITZGERALD repeated, that he urged no charge against Lord Grey. The Honour. able and Learned Gentletnan was the first. person in that House, who, after a m ean i ng was di sc l a i med by the Speaker, brought it foryard again and re nt-Red it.—Mr. BROUGHAM explained. Mr. ROBINSON did not consider either the Ho.' noarable and Learned Gentleman's charge 'lair, or akciutioe just It Midi ice fair Government with profligate wage of the p a t alia net . , becathe there was an increase of same g a l i! nor was it just to conclude, that the fact of a gate waste of the public m o n e y WAS admitteds;: ma ft the increase of the salaries bad b een annvemi er the increase was necessary, as he conteaded i t "e was no profligate waste. Mr. BROUGHAM did not think any maw suppose that he meant that the profligat e w n - n e ' the public money wasadmirted. Wl. at he that the increase of the salaries was admitted. Mr. WARD spoke to order. Mr. BROUGHAM thought any G ent l eman made a motion had a right to answe r re , le to him, and to have th e l ast word. every The .S,PEAKER said, that it was not the Ran . that a Member who had made a motion n ieg l d allowed to reply to all those wh o spoke 44(4 mption. Mr. BROUGHAM then entered into a justiticati , m of his charge, and ar gue d , that at lee*, ara now a time of peace, the duties of office s dinf a io x and the pa ice of commod :ies reducing, 13 i crease of salaries was a waste of t h e public alon' Lord CASTLEREAGH thou g h t t h at if theilos. and Learned Gentleman had any r egar d for his on name or weight in that House, he would notean. tinue his present line. After some words from Lord Factu al, ah Petition was read, and laid on th e table. e ter. METHUEN moved for copies dp idert Council in 1795, and in 1816, respecting t i t u6 i ti ll of the Secretaries of the Admiralty. Mr. BLACKBURNE presented a petiti on f rom Blackwall against the Property Tat Load FOLKES TONE said, that it had staled that the Property Ca: would hear o n d iet i cia and not the poor. He, however, could revue a eat which would chew that it was not s,. A cler grum, with two accomplished daughters, was reduced tri ss great a pitch of distress that the neighbouriagGentk, men entered into a subscription and purchased fan, `pounds a year fur him. On this he was charg e d tour pounds for the Property Tax. He WAS told by the Collector thy: there was no redress for him but by application is thz Board of Commissioners. He (bee forwarded an application to London, where it was I for four months before he received any answer, s a l then he was told that he did not come withia the et . ceptions to the tax. Ttie CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that he would do every thing in his power, 4 4 he hoped the House wculd assist him, to make thti best possible modifications in the Act. Atter some further observations from Mr. Pas, suer, Sir M. W. Rumex, and Lord Faustus the petition was read and ordered to lie on the table. Mr. GRENFELL would put off his metirra will regard to the Bank till to•nior row, if it was under. stood that it should have the precedence of the Lei Loan Bill. After some conversati.in between the CRAWILLI of the EXCHEQUER, :.:r. Timor ET, Mr. Pox:over, and Lord CASTLEREACII, in the course of which, tbe able ' Lord wished that the Property l'ax should be postpo. ned from Monday, on account of the anniversary for Sr. Patrick's Charity on t' at d iy, or that at kw. those who did not attend the Niue ting, should lead their m‘ , :icy there. Mr. GRENFELL'S motion was deferred till to. Mr. FORBES presented a Petition from Beverley, in Yorks:sire, against the additional dutr no Looses. Sir JOHN NEWPORT put off to Thursday, the 4th of April, his motion respecting the Sue of Ireland. Lord FOLKESTONE made an allusion to the explanation that bad been given on a former light by the Ministers, of the term M household troops," a being found in a Bill brought in by Mr. Burke. No such team was introduced into any Bill, but Mr. Burke did apply. it in siiicule to Lords of the Bed. chamber and other courtiers, who cone down to fight the battles of the Minister in Parliament. He said, there were two ways of destroying the Coati. tution; one was by a military, and the odes bys fiscal tyranny. Of these the latter WAS the MOtt °Fe pressive ; and if the Income Tax passed, the villa. tors would be obliged to go to every house ‘%ith file of soldiers. The obstinacy with which that tit was persisted in proved. that s.mething more oasis ' view than the bare increase of revenuz. He w& ' chided with moving for an account of the ntimberg military guards employed within the metropolisevey year since 1791, to January last inclusive. Mr. R. WARD was at a loss to comprehend the nature of the danger that the Noble Lori had Go jured up in his imagination. He could not beliefs any of the allegations adduced by the Noble 1.1r4 unless some specific facts were brought forward is support of them. Sir MARK WOOD thought Ole establishment was not too large, and asked Wit would haw?. if Lord Wellington wi , re to send for a foi.le, and we had no supply for the emergency. Lord PALMERS roN said, the accounts shoal& be presented, if it were possible to make thematic. He wished to set the Noble Lord (Lord Folkestone) right on one subject ; namely, that a larger Dumber at guards was not now mounted than when the K i ng res►ded in London—that number was 45. . Mr. BENNETT give notice for a motion on Wed. nesday, relative to the enhstitig of chiklun into the army. __ The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, Lord PALMERSTON moved, that the sem £333,692. I Is. 61 be graftted for defraying the charges of the Cavalry, Guards, Dragons and Royal Waggon Train: Sir M. W. RIDLEY took this occasion to e6n• plain of the negligence and cruelty of those whoa.** entrusted with the care or bringing our cavalry hood from France, by means of which vast ntimbetS of them perished on their passage. As the re,, ,, inteets• however, had not their complement of :)orsee; thought no new expense would be incurred by Pm' cha.ing any more horses. Lord CASTLEREtiGH said, that nothing was more difficult and expensive than the transrri of cavalry hnrses across the Channel. Mr. WA RRE bore te_timony, to the great losses sustained in horses coming from France : the s wacmost shameful and disgusting—numbers of t , es died on their_passage, in consequence of having lass. put into small cutterpackets, but thcuo that wegerit