Star. — London, England, 1816-03-16 00:00:00

w I;. A A h )-• ni 11l 1. if IT i he _ , , vibrato of St .:sloes% St. George's, sod St. Martin's-in- . ..Firiji sgt i n st the so Inlvent Debtors' Act. Rest, and or . ' be r• fermi to the Insolvent A,ct Committee. sr. TIER zgEy moved, " That, there be laid before the n Account of the Establishment of the Admiralty on the a D•CV oI P ber I et*. Ordered. . • - & re d, on them o tion of Mr. BROUGHAM, that there be ,/,,., ike !louse, e• Return o f the Wades of Officers of i t - b o re, for the year* 1810 and 1814 ; and also Copies of coye,posoleace between the Board of Customs and the Trea ...,° "Wee to seizures mad e from a Re g iment of Cavalry at 'm la October, 1814 ; as also a return of the increase of eyries"" of the A uditors of Excise in Scotland. iv Repo rt of the Marine Mutiny Bill was brought up. To old* t hi r d l ime on Monday. g oat of the Bank Loan Bill was brought up ; and after move between the Chancellor of the Exchequei, and Mr. Bankes, was agreed to. riGr ee . NETT BE N presented a Petition front a Tradesman in P Zi, of Lambeth, complaining of certain hardships which r a fA—soge from the conduct of the Collector of the Income " - it , p e ddoo set forth, that the Petitioner was assessed as•; 0 ova m ale Tax, which assessment having become due, cc!"' __ tb di e e by the Collector. The Petitioner had in the eras , nr --2 ~..., a Bankrupt, and informed the Collector of u_...7., i 7 0 pee, at the same time giving him the name of the l'ribe bankruptcy,. with which the Collector went aoeii di. period the Petitioner's creditors, being satis ,iicesebeet, presented hint with some furniture, and vso Tt et emag with his business, for the support of his wife .., i but scarcely was he settled, when he received ant). ;do folee Collector, with a demand for the tax already h el , Ogee lib refusal, front inability to pay, an ezeotition was ;i s m his hoot, which swept away alt the property he had, o bu g ed him again to shut up his shop, and reduced him to of distress. The petition being read, was ordered to lie ems' PROPERTY TAX. Mr. BYNG brought up a Petition from the inha bits of the Parishof Isleworth against the Property 'lL...Laid on the table. gr. BYNG brought up a Petition from Ham. vntnith against the Property Tax.—Laid on the üblei gr. BYNG also brought up a Petition from St. reel, Westminster, against the Property Tax, hi& was read and laid on the table. Mr. CALVERT broht up a Petition against the rnperty Tax from the Pa r ish of St. Giles, Camber ell.--Laid on the table. Se G. HEATHCOTE brought up a Petition from the Landholders and Inhabitants of a parish in Lin cenobite against the Property 'fax. Sir C. BURREL thought proper to mention, that if petitions which were sent up to Members had their fe as s open, and were directed, 4 , Parliamentary Peti tion," they would come free. The Petition was read and laid on the table. Sir JOHN NEWPORT moved, « that this House he called over on Wednesday, the 3d of April, the day preceding the Inquiry into the State of Ireland." to. .Mr. BAKING wondered why several Papers re specting the Property Tax had not been laid before the House, in the production of which there could have been no difficulty. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was unable to assign any reason for the delay in the returns mentioned by the Hon. Member. Mr. BARING moved, that the Papers alluded to b e l a id before she House forthwith.—Ordered. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL brought op a Petition from the Town of Eye against the Property Tu.—Laid on the table. Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW brought up a Petition from Guildford against the Property T eix.—.Laid on the table. BONAPARTE. Mr. TIERNEY rose to make a motion respecting Ie expense of the keeping of l 3 onnpai te : he wished o know what number of ships were employed in lag b:tw;xt Great Britain and St. Helena? The Ipsnple in that island, he understood, were considera ivy increased, and the expense of necessaries were nisch augmented in consequence. The Right Hon. Gentleman then moved, * That a Return be laid before this House, shew ing the notnher of ir•!nsports sent, and about to be tent, to the islaail of St. Helena, the quantity of Jr tonnage, the time for which engaged, and the teof expense." Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that the Right Ihnourable Gentleman had not stated, whether he aunt to indult the ships which were to remain near de Island. Mr. TIERNEY did not care whether the ships ?T to remain at St. Helena or not. He merely laird to know to what expense the country would klithie by their being employed betwixt Great Br:- titisd that island. —'f he Motion was agreed to. MARINES IN AMERICA. ..... Mr. TIERNEY had another motion to lay before Ole [louse, which respected the Marines. He had keen informed that a number of Marines had been dr4fed into the Line in Canada, and that they had since been britight home, when they might have re mined with a very great saving to thc Government. He then moved, "That there be laid before this House an Account tithe number of Royal Marines in Canada, between to sth laauary, 1815, and the sth January, 1816." Mr. CROKER could inform the Right Honour -61! Gentleman, t h at he had been totally misinformed the susject of hi* motion. Two battalions had been formed, it was true, whit!' were employed in SPirt, and which had been sent to America when the, Were no longer necessary in Spain, from the suc cesses of the Duke of Wellington. He did not mean 'hat they were really battalions, but companies of men Ile into regiments, and formed, merely fora tempo ;47 purpose, into bodies that might be called batta, " 1 11. Our bad success in America, and various con kg4ent causes, had made it expedient to keep those . I.Lriae s f cr a w hil e em b o di e d. Wh en t h e y were no longer necessary, they had been brought home, as they acre forced to be, before any new duty or destination t4l be assigned to them. Mr. TIERNEY thought, that whilst the Marines were in Canada, they might havti been kept there vith a considerable saving; and nothing could per ll* him that they would not have been much bet ter there than at home. Mr. CROKER too k the lib erty o f i n f orm i ng th e „ Ight lionourablq Gentleman, that the Marines could not have been left there, as they were obliged come home before they were put upon the esta. sishinent. The Right Honourable Gentleman !lilt to have made better enquiries before he had 1 ; 1 1 - any thing against the corps of Marines, which RA always acted with such honour to themselves and _the Houle. 244 TIERNEY should not have said any thing "ct the Marines, if be had not burst so much aim% i • the military being kept up, and the great pity k was to throw such great meg adrift. He wished to know why Sir' H. Popham, had a flag ship at Deptford ? and it it was common for such a flag ship to be kept in the River during peace t Mr. CROKER could assure the House that a flag WAS only kept up during war, when ships were pay ing off, or .when others were waiting for orders re specting their destination. In time of peace that flag would be taken down, but at present the war esta. blishment was not all - paid off and dismissed. He could assure the House also, that the keeping up of that flag was a great saving to Government, as it promoted. good order, expedition in manning, and from a variety of other considerations, it. would not be prudent to take it down immediately. Mr. TIERNEY wished to know if there was an additional Commissioner at Deptford ? Mr. CROKEIt believed there was no additional Commissioner, tho ug h h e cou ld not say. whether there was or was not one during the war. Mr. TIERNEY did not altogether approve of the Master Intendant. Mr. CROKER hoped that the Honourable Mem ber would recollect that the Master Intendant and the other public Officers lie had mentioned were in different departments. Mr. W. VVYNNE thought the Marines might have been kept embodied, in Canada. Mr. CROKE R repeated the reasons he had before given for, bringing th.tt force home. He believed that if they were not brought home to England at the end of the war as well as the sailors, the disad• vantage to Government might be very serious. PRINCE REGENT'S MESSAGE. On the motion of the CUM/MELLOR of the Exam I QUER, the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, to take the Prince Regent's Message into consideration. The Message having been read, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. said, that after the unanimity which had prevailed the night before, in voting an. Address of congrato lation to his Royal Highness on the happy occasion of her Royal Higlusess Princess Charlotte's marriage with Prince George Leopold Cobourg de Saalfeld, he felt no difficulty in applying to the !louse to make a provision which should unite tl:e purposes of domestic comfort and proper splendour, with those of economy, which the situation at• the country ae quired. The object of the proposition Would be two fold. He should first move an annual allowance, equal to the suppert of the rank and dignity of those', illustrious personages, and next an immediate giant as an outfit for their establishment. The annual al lowance he proposed, should consist of AC60,000, of which £lO 000 would form the pi ivy 'purse of her Royal Highness. That sum should be granted du ring the life of her Royal Highness, and should the painful event of her demise occur, an income of fifty thousand pounds a year shanld be continued to th.: Prince of Cobourg. The present allowance of her Royal Highness being no longer requisite, there would be a saving of about £30,000 a year on the Civil List. As to the sum he should propose as an outfit, he was certain that the House was too well aware of the propriety and comfort of making a suitable Es tablishment on the outset, and how favourable it would be to ecoaomy, by preventing diatory and after payments, not to agree both to the principle and the amount of the grant which he should ask.— This outfit he should propose should be made egyi valent to one year's allowance, or sixt y thousand pounds. It would be employed in purchasing arti cles of furniture, and whatever might be necessary to complete the establishment. The various expenses in plate, carriages, wine, &c. were calculated at forty thousand pounds—ten thousand pounds were set apart fur the articles of. dress, and ten thousand pounds for an addition to her Royal Highness's jewels. 'Those items made altogether seao,ooo. He had thought it prsferahle to unfold the whole of the subject to the House at once. There was only one more point on *filch he should make any observa tions. It was this. It had not hitherto been practi cable to select a becoming residence for the reception of her Royal Highness, and it was possihle that an application ought be made to Parliament for further aid for t:.at paepose. If such an application were made, he had no doubt but that the House would proceed with the same loyal attention and interest which it had already displayed.in behalf of her Royal Highness. He concluded by moving, that a grant of £60,000 a year be voted, in order to provide a suitable establishment for her Royal Highness No eels Charlotte Augusta, and his Serene nightie::: Prince George Leopold Cobourg de Saalfeld, to be continued during the lives of their Highnesses, •and that his M..jesty be enabled, in case of her Royal Highne's's demise, to settle the sum . of fifty thousand pounds a-year on his Serene Highness the Prince of Cobourg. Mr. TIERNEY had nothing to object to the al lowance proposed. He ':ad no doubt, but that once accepted by those distin : : , ished personages as gads factory, they would conduct their expenses on a sys tem of economy, which would give them still greater claims to the kvour of the House. With respect to All residence becumine their rank, he suggested that the Ordnance Office, which had been fixed in Pall Mall some years ago, being reduced in time of peace, might be removed to some other place, and the ex tensive buildings which it now occupied, might be' ate - plied to the use of her Royal Highness and her distinguished Consort. tie wished Government might turn their eyes to That edifice, as comfort and economy would thus be best consulted. The allow, ante to the Prince of Cobourg, in case he should sur vive her Royal Highness, was.extremely liberal, and he was glad it was so. From all he had heard of his Serene Highness, he was ready to give hitn,full cre dit for the best intentions. He repeated his entire ap- probation of the provisiou proposed. It was libeialo. but not extravagant, and such as it became those , Illustrious Personages to receive, and the country co' bestow. 1, Mr. WARD explained, that the OrdnancrOffice was not the property of the Crown, as the Right! Hen. Gentleman seemed to have supposed. Only the mechanical part of it was in the Tower ; and! much inconvenience would result both to the servicef and to the.public, were the Ordnance to be removed from the neighbourhood of the other offices. Mr. TIERNEY suggested, that as the Ordnance Eitablishnsent . must be • considerably reduced, some 'place might easily be found for • it in the neighbour. hood of Dowaing.strcet. . . I Mr: FitEEMANTLE considered that it was Rte most economical mode that could be adopted to give her Royal Highness an _adequate allowance, With a grant of money sufficient to form a proper Estab lishment at once. In•this manner future applications would be prevented, and . he was •certain, from his , awn knowledge, that the House would have reason to applaud its own liberality. Mr. BROUGHAM wished to give his feeble tes timony In favour of the proposed plan. There was no worse economy than that which would attempt to do too much. It a smaller annual allowance had been granted, and a smaller sum as an outfit, there might have been a renewal of those scenes which had disgusted the House and the country—of those ap plications for the payment of debts, which, though incurred, perhaps, at first, through the want of an adequate aetablishmeet, had since proceeded from a different source. He approved most sincerely of the intended Establishment ; ,though some doubt had risen in his mind respecting the propriety of continu ing £50,000 a-year to the Prince of Cobourg, in case el her Royal Highness's demise, as that fa exceed. ed what was given to our own Princes. But on con sidering, after having been plaCed so high, besides the sorrow of his loss, the mortification which his Serene Highness would have to encounter on descend ing- to a lower income, lie felt that doubt nearly re moved. The allowance was liberal, but he hoped it would be spent in this country.-:-(Hear, hear, frail the Afinisterial ride).—There was but one feeling in the House and in the country on that subject ; and as her Royal Highness, though sole apparent heiress to the Crown, was likely to tome into the situation of any other woman having a liu.baod, and to be in the power of that husband, be trusted the House would be attentive to secure the rights of that Royal Person, and the order of succession, by taking ail the measures necessary for that pnrpQse. He had no idea of limiting the residence of her Royal Highness to any place beyond her own wish. If at any time she should desire to visit foreign countries, m"re connected with her husband, he did not mean to raise any impediment ; but to place in her hands. by Act of Path tin.ttr, the power of continuing in this country, it such were her good pleasttre, net. withstanding her coverture. There was another point t,‘ which lie wt;uld direct the attention of the Finns?. They 11241 now, With .t degree of unanimity 441ticli did them bottom, and which could - not fad to be gra tifying to the illustlions poties, approved the liberal I::%tahlishmetit proposed for that distinguished branch of the Royal Family. He should now suggest the propriety of availing themselves of this unanimity, of this complete silence of party feelings, and taking into consideration an arrangement which had once before been proposed to the H :use, and hid then been rejected. But piny spirit, was then raging in greater violence. He meant an arrangement in case an event should take place, ol which, however pain flit the contemplation, the possibility must be ad mined : the death, or the incapacity of the Prince Regent to exercise the functions of Royalty. No arrangement now existed in the contemplation of such an event. It had been suggested, at the periad to which he had alluded, to esablish a permanent Re gency ; but Parliament hl,d been pleased to form a temporary one. What could not he effected in the „storm of passions, loosened in 1810, might now be coolly and judiciously attempted. The fatal event fr arloictr might render such an arrangement afterwards necessary, was now remote, and the discussion would therefore be carried an with more temper and wis dom, than if the necessities of the case calkd at once upon the House to interfere. He had taken this op portunity to throw nut these observations for the con sideration of Parliament. No man felt more sincerc respect for the illustrious parties, or should deprecate more deeply any admixture of party feeling in the vo:e of this night. Lord CAST!.EREAGH gave credit to the Ho nourable Gentleman for not wishing to introclaw. party feelings into the tliscussion, at a time when all weredisposed to offer up their prayers for the happi ness of the illustri.ais c , nple an 4 the Royal Family. Yet he must think that the 1 - I , m )urable Member had mixed something in the goastion which did not belong to it. Tile supposltion of incapacity in the Prince Regent WAS not a sw-ject for di tossion at this p.:riod, and with respeta to t!ie point of residence, he was not lawyer enough to know whether it would be passible to force her Roy 41 Highness out of the country, but he deprecated the creating a notion in the public that there might be a wish in some quarter to fix the resi dence of her Royal Highness in some other country. It the Honourable Member had given way to such alarms, he would gladly dispel them, by assuring him that they were totally groundless ; he assured him, from his own knawledge, that there was the most perfect understanding as to the right of resi dence between the high interested parties, and that a distinct record of the fact had taken place in the mar riage-settlements of her Royal Highness. He hoped he had now relieved him from his alarm. As to the question of Regency, this WAS not the time for its i discussion, and with respect to the allowance to the Prince of Cobourg, in case of her Royal Highness* demise,, it was liberal, but to act differently would' he harsh•--(Hrar, hear, fran the Oprerition)—tpwards an individual, whose coming he was sure the coum.' try was disposed to hail with satisfaction and con fidence. Mr. BROUGHAM was sdrry that the Noble Lord should suppose he wished to mix useless questions with the present. It was certainly not likely that the illustrious person alluded to, should feel the want of such protection as he had suggested, but it was the duty of the House to look at and provide for the pos sibility of the case. He was glad' that a clause had , been inseited in the Marriage Settlements, but an Act of Parliament embodying that Stipul dim could alone , • give it force. He concluded by calling on the Noble Lorcl to state, whether an arrangement of that nature , had not been proposed in the negotiations which had taken place.on a similar subject in 1814 ? (no answer WAS returned). i Mr. BARCLAY inquired howa saving of 030,000 i would be produced on the Civil List by the proposed arrangement ? 1 The CHANCELLOR of the EXCH EQUER ) stated, that the regular income of her Ro yal High ness,Ro the Princess Charlotte was #115,000; but there were other evenses connected with her establishment which would make up the saving about £50,000. Lord CASTLEREAGH explained, that this sum included the expenses of the attendants on her Royal . - . H ighness, her Ladies, and the persons who contris buted to her education. Mr. W. WYNNE approved of the establishment proposed; but as it was formed on nearly the same footing as that of an Heir Apparent, he wished, as long as her Royal Highness should continue in that light, she should be placed under the same regetations as the Heil A opatent was by the law of the land. Lord CASTLEREAGH apprehended that the clause in the marriage settlements included all that was necessary. Her R.,yal Highness's residence abroad would be shortened at the will of the King, that of the Prince Regent, or at her own desire. The Resolution was then put and agreed to, and the Report was ordered. ORDNANCE ESTIMATES. On the bringing up of the Report of the Com. mittee of Supply, Sir JOHN NEWPORT inquired why the total pacification of India, and the extinction of all hostile force in that quarter, should be made a plea to in. crease the Military Establishment id that part'of our dominions ? Mr. WALLACE stated, that the expense ef that establisiiment was supported by the East India Com pany, and that the effective force was not so conside. rable as the nominal one given in the estimates. He urged the necessity of maintaining a respectable army, even in time of peace, in a country where there was only one European to 1000 natives. , He regrettNl that the Honniirable Baronet had Selected this y,.ar, when we could hardly conceive. that we were at peace 'in India ; the Rajah of Napaul being the richest Chief in that country, and the forces of Scindiah and Holitar being also in great power. There was also a new predatory power which had atis2n, the finder. rahs, who had a force of 50,000 nr 40,000 men ; these were inclined to join with the Mahrattas ; and, under all the circumstances, it was highly nece.s try that we should always be prepared to repA their in cursions. Sir JOHN NEWPORT explained. The state ment he had heard of the intermediate condition of India between peace and war, removed much of his objection to the ResAtaion ; but he should eau-env-1y regret placing a great force under any Officer, which might afford - a temptation to increase our territories in that qua-ler. Mr. T. COUHTENAY, Sir JOHN NEWPORT. and Mr. WALLACE, sever.,lly explained. Mr. CALCRAFI' was not at all satisfied with the Vote proposed. He had . heard nothing which could induce him to think .that the establishment was not too large. The cavalry intended to be main tained at home was also, in his opinion, infinitely too large for the purposes alleged, which were principally those of colLicting the revenue. He repeated many of the arguments so often used, to shew the necessity of reducing the Waggon Train and other coriss.— The reduction in the whole establishment, to the amount of '23,000 men, might be made without any detriment in the public service. Sir G. HEATHCOTE was of opinion, that the proposed Establishment only indica'.el the appre hension of new wars, and a continuance of taxation. _ 1. It would appear, that our complete success on the Continent had produced no favourab:e result. kV, ought to consider the policy prescribed by nature for our situation, and trust for protection to our Navy. We bad nothing to fear from the collecting 01 large armies, even on .the opposite shores; while we knew that they had not the means of being transported. It was therefore an overstrained picture, to pretend alarm at any secret projects the Continental Powers might entertain ; but the peace establishment pro. ciuced tear, and rendered our late Treaties like a mass of waste paper. The Netherlands, a kingdom which we had established, had connected the:melt:es with a great Power, as ambitious as ever France was of military glory. This influence foreboded no good to our country; it foreboded a riValship to Our naval supremacy, against which we ought to be on our guard by encouraging our navy. He condemned the prin ciple of screwing up taxation to the utmost pitch, which would be uonecessat y but for our military es tablishment. The propositions under consideration almosticonvinced him that we had been carrying on a war against political opinions. But no military ty ranny, no dungeons, could arrest the progress of truth—(flear, hear.) He feared, however, these forces were kept up with a view of stiffing those opinions which men chose to indulge of their natural rights; but he was convinced that the experiment would b unsuccessful, and these opinions would prevail, not only in this country, but all over the civilized world.' Lord,PALMERSTON wished to answer a ques tion that had been asked on a former evening, respec ting the late loss of the transports off Ireland. They were as fine ships as any in the service, and their loss was entirely accidental, and no blame whatever could possibly attach to the Transport. Board. Notwith standing the vast "number of troops (57,000) and horses,that were sent to Ostend in the summer, not a single accident happened ; and out of 5376 horses, only 130 died on the passage. Mr. WARRE alluded to the great loss of horses in the transports that sailed from Calais with the re turning troops. Lord PALMERSTON said that only 16 horses had died on the 'passage, and 16 were saved, which formed the whole number. The casualty was caused by bad weather, which forced the transports back. The Resolutions were then read a second time, and agreed to. On the. Resolution being read for the sum for the payment of the General Staff, Mr. WYNNE asked some questions respecting the quotas - of the Militia, which were answered by Mr. ADDINGTON at cons;derable length :—He went into details of the distribution of the force, and the man. nor in which such part of it as is to remain embodied is to be maintained, recruited, and employed. The several other Resolutions moved in the Com. mittee of Supply were then put and agreed to. Mr. WYNNE then suggested the propriety of postponing the other Estimates. Mr. TIERNEY observed, that an establishment of no less than 111,00(1 men had already been agreed to, tor a time of peace, but the sensation it had pro. duced in every part of the country was such, that though the Noble Lord had gained the sanction of Parliament' for the measure, the country felt itself insulted. Lord CASTLEREAGH contended, that them was no instance in the History of England of any mi. litary establishment haring undergo& so long a dim.