Star. — London, England, 1804-03-16 00:00:00

• , . • • • 'ply a ferpicion for "Nth There is not the aide* of wore, 'and import an accufation for which there is not the flighted ground. I would afk the Right lionourible Mover of this propofition, what are the melons, for he certainly has not Liked any, which have pro4oked hiM to alter his fentiments with re (pee to the Noble Lord who was the fuhjeft of filch warm panegyric, upon the firft acceffion ofithe pre fent Minifters to office; and who, I would be curious so know, does the Right Hon. Gentleman think more adequate to the high Ration he fills ; whom would he' recommend to fucceed him ? If the Right Hon. Gentleman did pronounce the fplendid pane gyric to which I have alluded upon this Noble Lord, upon. light grounds. he was certainly very ' ct araeahk, for he was, as it were, giving a falfe `charatter, and that of a great public fcrvant ; but it Was well &nown that thofe grounds were not light— fity relied upon the higheß public cervices, and were Tupported by the warm and unanimous applaufes of the country. Why then has the Right Honourable Gentleman, or the Hon. Gentleman who (poke lall, Changed their opinions ?,Why have they altered their fentiments of the Noble Lord ? Has any thing oe 'cowed fine to induce or juflify the change? I chal lenge them to take the moil minute retrofpcs of the condue of that Noble Lord fence his appointment to the prefidtncy of the Admiralty. Leall upon them to re-trace all his Reps, and to point out one reafon why he has forfeited their confidence. I mean fuch a reafon as this Houle would recagnife as fuffi esent to )unify the propofed enquiry. What fads have they in their power to produce ? lam (edi fied they have none, and therefore I will refill the propofition; and this is the firfl inflame in which it has happened that I have felt it my duty to oppofe a motion for inquiry. Indeed, on every fuch motion heretofore that I reeollee,particularlyduring the adminiltration of the Right Honourable Gentle man by whom the prefent motion was fubmitted to the Houk, ample grounds were laid to demand in quiry ? but in this inflame I am of opinion that the demand is uarupported, not merely by common fence but common decency. Ido not intend to attribute improper tnotives to the Right Honourable Mover ; but I beg to a& him, what good can he accomplifli by the prodoeion of papers refpeding the Rate of oar navy in a former war ? What are his views ? Does he mean to inflitute a comparifon between Lord St. Vincent and Lord Spencer ? To afcertain which of the two is better qualified to manage our naval concerns? I cannot fee the purpofe of filch a commit. It cannot tend to any good °Nee. Indeed I am confident that if a granger were to obferve the whole of this proceeding, he would got hefitate to pronounce that it could be only aftuated by faltions and party motives. This I am the more Rrongly inclined to believe from the Ilatements of the gallant officer (Sir Edward Pellew) which was quite a fair faftory reply to all the arguments that have been advanced this evening, and a full refutation of the calumnies that have been for fame time back propa gated relative to the condition of our navy. In that fpeeeb, which applied as forcibly to the heart as the underflanding, the Honourable Baronet manifeßcd not only that fincerity and franknefs which is the general chara&erittic of that profeflion of which he foims fo bright an ornament, and which never fails to istereft any man capable of feeling, but alfo a con fiderable mare of acutenek anal judgment; he made Come very pertinent remarks upon the nature of thole gun boats which Teem to •be fuch favourites of the Right Hon. Gentleman who brought forward this motion, but of which the Honourable Baronet don't appear at all to approve; and, from my own ob (creation, I certainly am difpofed to agree with that Honourable Baronet. who is much more competent to judge upon the fubjed than the Right Honourable Gentleman or any other Statefman. I am not fur priced that, there gun boats fhould be treated with fo much contempt by naval men. I have happened to fee fomething of them mylelf, by accident, in the courfe of the lalt war on the South Coal, and they really appeared to me to be quite unfit to render any material fervice in the way of attack or defence ; in deed fume of them were incapable of fiiing a (hot. It is known that out of the tzo gun•boats which the Right Honourable Gentleman had in commiffion at the elafe of the lad war, there were fcatcely any re tairtd as at all ufcful, and th tt riz of them, whic'i were puichafed from Cioitranois, were much the wool. Enough has been laid by the Honourable Baronet of the kind of velltls wb;ch Contradors ge nerally built ; and, without referring to the (hips of the line, of which the Honourable Baronet has taken notice, in proof of the badnefs of their materials and the inferiority of their svt.kmanlhip, I flail only re. mutt on theta gumboots. Ido not, indeed, like to dwell on the milcondlin of inferior officers in any department. Ido not with to hear of Curb perfons in this Moire t we should look always to the heads of thole departments as the per fins anfweroble to us. The Navy Board may be fidpeetcd of it tving played into the hands of the Contraftors dui jog the lalt war; and, perhaps, to that was owing the greatinferiority of the Right Honourable Gentleman's gun-boats—an in fcriority which was certainly very glaring. for nut of the r ao, 37 were fold, after advt.:raiment. fir almott nothing ; Come which could not be difpofed of were retained, and Cis were fent to Jerky, which were fuunil fo utterly tifelefs that Capt. D'Auvergne knew not what to do with them. He, howcver, fent five of them home Mine time otter, and W.la obliged to Revd tome of his ben cruizeis to tow them fafcly. --Yet this is the kind of force which the Right tionourable Gentleman wet,id recommend in ,prefe tenca to any other to defend our coati. It reminds me of an anecdote of the Right Hon. Gentleman's a.insioidration, when three men of war were fent to this country from Portugal, which was our ally ; thofc Ihips were found to I.: fo incapable of givin us any atfillmice, ton, on if.: c' , ntlAry, were fo little fea worthy, that it was deterniii.ed to fend them hon.,, and it became abfolutely necellary to difpatch one of our frigates with them a, 'a convoy. Such thiripirvs would of eourfe be rather an incumbrarice ; and the gun boats, to which the Right Hen. Gentleman is to partial, %mild. trurn all that I have Kaiel abroad, which is corrotvirated by toe Hon. B untie' this night, he rather ir;ori.tts on the More and the number of men they would ne• e.tfattly recluire, titan likely to be ferviceable. An /I , as. Admiral on the lower ticncli (Admiral llct;c. Icy) has, in the c-rode itr a eery estrairrilinarr (perch, ; It Lied th a t h e h a d d e :i vers d i n a p l an to t he Ad m i I "kb which, J etkul i.kos l / 2 mud stfeaually fecurel It, IN our Mon craft, and completely deftroy the flotilla of the enemy. The gallant Admiral has detailed to the Houk Tome parts or this plan; but be has not told us whether it was the production of his own brain or that of Come other perfon, and, doubtlefs it would be, from the fpectmen he has given us, a tolerably Itrong proof of his gallantry to own it (a &ugh). Without pretending to much nautical knowledge, one might, I think, queßion the correli nets of the Hon. Adrnirpl's ideas upon this project, for the practicability of making ufe of gun boats to annoy the flotillas on the French coati was denied by every intelligent naval officer; but whatever is their tile in the Ihoals along that coact, they furely are incapable of any degree of utility, comparable to that Iwhich may be derived from large (hipping upon our own coact. Wherever the latter can be employed, the former mull be comparatively ufelefs. It is no torious that, all along from Pevenfey to Dungenefs, a man of war can anchor dole in fnore, fuch is the depth of water. This, therefore, is the detcription of force upon which I would place my confidence either for attack or defence. As to the former, who can entertain a doubt that, if the French gun boats should venture out, and the flightelt breeze (hould arife, that Captain Markham, whom I mention not as a Member of Parliament, for that I knowavould he irregular, but as a naval officer, that Sir Edward Pellew, Sir Thomas Trowbridge, or in fad any of ficer known in our naval record s, - would not, with a tingle 74, (hoot through and fink a crowd of that contemptible craft. With refpea to the number of feamen and marines now employed, it has been Rated by the Right Hon. Gentleman on the Treafury Bench, that there were 98,000, which is only zOOO (port of the whole amount voted ; bat the Hon. Gentleman who (poke laR is Rill ditfatisfied. He fays that there ought to be more men. He does not feem to recollect that the vote of the Horde limited the Admiralty ; and that it was at the time that vote was made the Honourable Gentleman's objections would be molt timely and proper. That was the period to confider the amount of the force neceffary to maintain the war. The Admiralty had thought soo,ooo men fofficien:, and it appeared that they were right, notwithllanding the Hon. Gentleman's difapprobation. They had, and it was not the leaft of their merit, collected this vail force in the (pace of twelve months, notwith. Itanding the number of our other defcriptions of force, and without interrupting the aliveemployment of our population in the various avocations of com merce, manufactures, and agriculture. To the ob ' fervations of the Rig ht Honourable Gentleman, on the propriety of building (hips in merchant's dock. yams, I truß enough has been Paid by the Honour. able Baronet (Sir Edward Pellew), at whofe pre fence this night the Houk has reafon to rejoice, to convince the Right Honourable Gentleman of his error, and alto to (hew him that his partiality to gun boa b is not quite fo judicious as he imagined. After what the Honourable Baronet has urged on this point I (ball hope the Ripe Hon. Gentleman will no lorler attempt to maintain his argument, unlefs he be influenced by filch magnanimity that he would not with to oppofe the French gun boats by any but their own matches...(.llmA) I have heard a Right Honourable Gentleman on the lower bench (Mr. Windham) often deplore that is the age of chivalry was gone ; ' but furely that complaint can no longer be repeated, if the Right Honourable mover of the propolition before the Houfe (hall continue to mani felt a with rather to oppofe gun boats to thole of the French, than to fee a crowd of them run down by an Englith 7+. This would be fomething like the feel. ing which I am Pure would influence the Right Hon. Gentleman on the lower bench, if, in palling through the beet, he should happen to fee two men engaged of unequal lize and Rrength. The Right Honoura ble Gentleman would immediately interelt himfelf for the weaker party, and call into action that fcience for which he is fo diainguilhed, to releafe, and perhaps to avenge him—(4laugh.)—To be ferious : it is ab turd to lay, that we lhould at once give up that for midable defcription of naval force, in which we have always found our arength and our glory, and take up another which is condemned, not merely by the cape. rience to which I have already referred, but by the judgment of the molt refameable naval officers. !'hat this change too fltould be chofen, as the Right Honourable Gentleman recommended, merely in order to reduce us to a level with the French boats, for no other argument to fupport the choice has been advanced, really furprifes me. It is fome thing like this, that if we had a (lone wall to de fend us .tgainft the (hot of an enemy, it lhould be iccorumentled to us to throw down the wall and fling Banes at our alfailants. An anecdote has been very generaily mentioned with refpeft to the Right Hon. Gentleman who had commenced this Debate. It Is laid that he propofed this fentiment—s'lhe Vnlun Leers, and 3 (needy meeting with the enemy on our own filmes." This to-AR, I underfland, was pro poled among a number of Volunteer Officers about tit months ago, at a time when the Volunteers, upon whom we are fo much to rely for our fecurity, could not be much acquainted with difcipline, if, accord ing to the Right Hon. Gentleman's affertion, they ars evenmow very defedive in that refpea. I am as ready as any man to pay a jua compliment to the Right Honourable Gentleman's Olive endeavours to promote the improvement of the Volunteers. I acknowledge that his folicitude for their advance ment and glory is confiderable, and probably he withes to remove any impediment in their way.— His defire is, perhaps, that they Iliould have a full opportunity of diltinguilbing thentfelves purfnant to the toalt I have quoted. If Each be his view, he certainly could not accompli(h it by better means than by contriving to have the defence of our coon. try committed to his favourite gun boats, intlea3 of men of war. Independently of the other objections I have offered to chafe gun-boats, there is one which occurs to me of too much Itrength to be omitted. If they were of the Caine kind as thole of laR war, any deictiption of men would be good eactuebor too gocd for them ; and if good men were required for them, they could not be had, without deducting from the number neceffary (or our important (hipping. la'hy then join with the corrupt band of deteeed pecula tors in ccitlastng the Admiralty for net paying all the attention which the Right Hon. Gentleman de. fared to theft gun brats t A little confidtterion ~ ...ht to be fufficicot to prevent anv man from compasi.a..g .t that refpedable Board—that Dowd wl.ien i. ec• fpedable in the ruination I 1 all men but einfliken por Wag& ur fraadulcat coots 114 m—that Bou d %bock has fuch numerous difficnlt7es to encounter, all incur red by a folicitnde to expofe and ;miffs fraud—to re cover and to fpare the public money. Has the Right Hon. Gentleman read the five Reports from the Corn miffionere appointed to inquire into the abufes com mitted in the feveral branches of the Naval Depart ment ? If fo, has he not there ken the foul corruption, the abominable artifice, wits which the Admiralty I has laid to Itruggle? Has the Right Hon. Gentleman obferved the frauds expo Ced in the Second Report— the Block and Coopers' Contrads, where :cool. have been paid for work proved not to be worth :col. ? Has be read the defcripti in of the plunder pradifed on Seamen by the Prize Agents ; and if fo, can he, can any man who loves the friends of his country and virtue, refute his gratitude and admiration to the Fira Lnrd of the Admiralty, who originated this inquiry ? An inquiry which has irritated agaiall him a bolt of enemies. They are enemies, however, which that Noble Lord mull deipife. It was but the prejudice of defeated vice againtt triumphant virtue. It could not d'Rurb the Noble Lord's mind. While he was only graded by thofe worms who had fed and fattened upon the corruption of the Navy—while he had only to reckon as his foes thofe who had proved themfelves hoaile to honour and Office, who had enriched themfelves on the fpoils of their country — while fuch only were his enemies, the Noble Lord would proceed in his made of glory as he did in the vi Tory on the memorable tath of February 1797, difdainiog and declining to Ten hate their attack ; but when the Right Hon. Author of the motion be. fore the Houfe becomes his affailant, the Noble Lord mutt feel furprifed. Even that Right Honourable Gentleman, however, cannot injure him.—His fame Rands too high—his charader is too firmly cflablifhed to be hurt by the affertions of any Member, and I have no doubt that the Noble Lord would be ever found entitled to the applade and protection of his country. With regard to the Right Hon. Gentle. man's recommendation, that (hipping lhould be built in the merchants' dock yards, I !hall only refer him to the (hips mentioned by the Hon. Baronet, and alto to the cafes defcribed in the Reports of the Commif fanners of Naval Inquiry, particularly to the cafes where it appeared that the perfons who received pay ment for (hips built in merchants' yards, were clerks in the King's dock yards. Is it pollible to fuppofe that collufions did not exitt in fuch cafes as there The Right Honourable Gentleman has Paid that it is impoffible during war to build any number of (hips in the King's dock yards, and that therefore a ne. ceflity arias of reforting to the merchants' yards.— What a melancholy expreffion—that in thole yards, where there were 3200 men employed, nothing more than the mere repair of (hips could be done. If fo, then our furprife mull be ditniniffied, that a French fleet fhould have been permitted, in the courfe of the lag war, to find its way to Egypt, anal another French fleet to fail to Ireland, where nothing but the ele ments offered to prevent a formidable French army from landing. If, however, the King's dock yards are really co little ufeful, or rather to ufelefs, they ought to be abolifhed altogether. A new 'jam ought to be adopted. If they could only finifh in theft yards 24 fail of the line, 15 frigates, and Come few hoops in the courfe of /0 years, although it is known that 45 lhipwrights can build a 74 in one yeas—that there are 3200 Shipwright. in thofe yards—and that the expence, &e. could not be Ids in twenty years than 4,100,0001. a Cum equal to the building of the whole navy of England, it follows, of courfe, that it is bad policy to continue the maintenance of thefe dock yards. It is befides well known that the inter nal fyllern of theft yards is bad. There is no diffe rence in the wages allowed to the workmen ; the un- Wifel can earn as much as thole of a different de , fcription. Thus emulation is prevented, and many advantages, of courfe, 101 l to the employers. The Right Hon. Gentleman may anfwer this, aid fay, that, although fo many abufes have been dr:ceded by the Commiflioners of Naval Inquiry, that trill the fyftem of the dock yards is good ; but I afar, and am prepared to maintain the aflertion, that abufe pervades every department of the fyflem. Does the Right Hon. Gentleman know of the frauds which the Commiflioners have found to have been committed in every article with which theft yards are furniflud, particularly blocks ? From there Auks arife the tie ceffity of advertifing for contradora to build (hipping; and as to correct them, to produce integrity and ar rangement in all the departments of the navy, is and has been the great endeavour of the high character upon whom it appears to be the object of the motion before the Houfe to fix an imputation, I (hall vote ageing it with as much fati.fadion as ever I gave a vote fince I had the honour of a feat in this Houle, fully convinced that filch a motion is only calculated to gratify the corrupt, to frown upon reform, and to alTail the reputation of a gallant Officer, whole claims to the gratitude of the country can only be equalled by the elteem and attachment he enjoys among all that are great and good." Mr. FOX fpoke to fubflance as follows : I feel my. felt placed in a fitnation fomeahat extraordinary on this occafion. With a great part of what has been Paid on the merits of the Flea Lord of the Admiral ty, I am arongly difpnfed to concur, but at the fame time, I cannot fee how thefe arguments tended to the conclufion at which they arrived. My Honourable Friend near me (Mr. Sheridan,) has made, a, he al ways does, a fpecch of the utenoft bsilliAncy and elo quence, in which, however, he feemcd to me to hate almo:t entirely omitted the reafons on which he was to negative the motion, and he contented Maslen with announcing the vote he was prepared to give though ready togive my ready a trent to the dillingui fh • cd worth and pre-eminent Cervices f Lord St. Vin cent, I feel that the bell way I can mill' , my raped for filch a charade'', is to give my vote for the mo tion. I feel that a flee thrown on the reputation of East St. Vincent, would be a lola to the Country, and to remove every fdpicion of that kind, I fay, let there be ample means of inqu.ry afforded, to that the triumph of Lord St. Vincent may be the 'more comple:e, fatidadory, and ghrious. It appears to me that the defender' of Lord St. Vincent had but two mules which they could wick propriety pur fue, either to (ay that no cafe whatever had been made out, and then refufe all the papers Act, or to produce all the papers which couli reatenab'y be afkcil for, and 'p.m the confiderato.n of tlicfe to call for the centime or the acquioal of the lionfe. But the Ito e of cooduft which Minittets have thought fit to take, does neither the one or the o:her. By grant• tam papers and refafiag others, sboy 141.1ki; enough to emmithenee the ildldeioi of fomething wrong iA the Naval'Adminiftriump i itind de totier, far ettotilli to let that ftifpicieso be wi p ed awiy. gni' the courfe which Minihis hive thought fit to adopt it is not difficult to explain. They *IL to defend: Lord St. Vincent as they would hate defended them-, . felves't they with to put him on a level with them, to obtain the precedent of his great name to refill in quiry, fo that every other inquiry play be fruftrateds they with to put him on a level wills Lord Hard.; wicke, fo that the refufal of inquiry in the intlance of one that can bear it, may be an argument for ret: ting inquiry slide when it might tend to produce dif coveries they would fupprefs. The Right Hon. Gentleman who fpoke firft (Mr. Tierney) againd the motion, agrees that the papers alluded to in two ' of the motions (hall be granted; bat he it of opinion that the third cannot be granted. If, however, tie, ark for any papers at all be to cad Come tar on the Firft Lord of the Admiralty, why are any papers granted at all ?Oris it becaufe thofe which are rk-• , Wed might lead to inquiry, that they are withheld,' If this be the objsf of the defenders of Lord St.` Vincent, I am confident that he mod difelahn filch tt mode of proceeding. lam confident that he would countenance no (haling or evafion to fupprefs inquiry; and that he would not be content if he thought that it could be furpeded he was ad. eerie to have his adminiftration cadvaffed That Miniilers,knowing that the conduit of the Fire Lord of the Admiralty is in every refpmft a contrail to their own, with to make common canfe with him, in offers ing a mode of defence to which, on a future °maims, they them Ives may retort. Towards Lord St. Vin cent I feel ueh perfonalf iendthip, and this renders me anxious t at his reputation thould Rand high; but public motives give me a Rill greater intereli in his fame and honour. Of his glorious atchievensent on the tith of February no man can think higher than I do ; but his conflia with the abufes and corruptions of his department appears to be, though lets brilliant, not lefs arduous and meritorious. On the ,4th of February he engaged and vanquithed the enemy; but he has waged a war no lets difficult, with jobs, and • contrails, and frauds. He has broken their embat. tied line, no lets arduous than to penetrate that of the enemy. My Admiration el him is increafed to find him pads, in fo high a degree, that which is mom rare than gallantry in the field— civil courage and decifion as well as perfonal courage. I feel that his virtues and public deferts in this coined with corrop tiun have naturally led to that obloquy by which hi has been purfued. The attempt to put to rout the hods of corruption moll have created him enemies. Such may have been the perfons from whom as Hon. Gentleman oppofite (Mr. Wilberforce) obtain ed the information he mentioned; but let the miter. able s-itneifes be brought forward, that their tellit molly may be examined and difproved. This calls to my mind an anecdote of a rifible nature—lt bap. pened that when Juftice Wines, a man who tomasy eminent qualities added a confiderable moon of humour, was one day employed in trying a caufe, I believe of murder, and one of the witneilks dm pofed that a ghoft had Paid fo and fo ;—" 0, very well (laid the Judge), I have no objedion to the evidence of the 014; let him be brought in and fworn I" So provided the witneffes alluded to by the Hon. Gentleman can be brought forward, I have no °Nation to receive their evidence at the bar of the Houle, that we may afterwards decide upon it. —During the whole courfe of the debate, the only perfon who has made any direfl charge againft the condo& of the Admiralty in general is my Hon. and gallant Relation (Admiral Berkeley) who fpoke lately. As to the Right Hon. Gentleman who made the nao lions, I conttft, that he teems to me to have made out i little or no tate. With refpeft to the number of gun boats in employtnetit now and at former periods, the comparifon affords no coneltifion, unlefs it be iltewn likewife that the exigency of the cafe was fuch as to demand greater exertions and a greater proportion of this fpecies of force. Unlefs too it can be flsewn, that of gun brigs a greater number ought to be em ployed, the late period at which the Admiralty made the contrails for fuch veffels proves nothing. The Right Hon. Gentleman likewife propoCes to sddrefs the Crown, recommending greater exertion in this way ; but any meafures for the improvement of our defence mull be left to thofe who are in official flotations. But in viewing our Rate of defence, the great mind of the Right Hon. Gentleman mutt fee that it mutt be judged of upon a general fylietn, and not upon any particular runt. It is impoffible, but, that in viewing each point feparately there moil ap pear to be Come deficiency. It is evident, however, that fume inferior parts mull be overlooked, in order that the perfeltion of the whole may he obtained; and I am inclined to think, that if there be any part of our defence which it was more Cafe to facrifice than another from its being of inferior moment, it is that of which the Right Honourable Gentleman has in. , rifted. Had the motion been for pap e r s generally, ! I might have been a little puzzled to know bow I : (koala vote, though I believe I hill &mild have I voted for inquiry; but as the matter floods now I I cannot hefitate. If the pipers are refuted, it mutt infer tome dur upon the Era Lord of the Admiralty; if forme of thefe documents are withheld, it may be laid by the Right Honourable Gentl:mao, that he was prevented from carrying the one:ti.:ll he meant to move, becaufc inquiry NA% airrelilli. and I.e was denied the papers by which his Case was to be proved. But it it faid, that if all the papers were I granted. a fafpicion would lic ayainft tha ti, it Lord 1 to the Admiralty. But hiw long could filch a fol. r picico continue ? No l o ng e r, f use l s , t h an t ill t h e in quiry took place. But if any fulpicion mile. from the motion or from the papers produced, it is iropoffible to fay how long forpicinn may remain. flocs no in quiry is allowed by which it can be removed. Mini- , tiers protect themielves friends of Lord St. Vincent in the prefent inllarce ;—but how hive they (hewn thensfclvet iolicitou. about the tame an..l the aceotty. I modation i.f that noble Lord on other occalions ? Do we not know, tha:. I. r at I:ail eighteen months, a dif. I ference of the 1111 , !I llli.m. kind, and to the ittsdl. went of public buoine::, exiOt.l between the firft Lord and the Secretary of the Admitalty ; yet that Seers toy preferred his place for a year and a half und er thofe very Minifict II who lately contestiod, that on ae cotlnt of a coolnefe between the Lord Lieutenant at Ireleni and the Commander in Chief there, it was inspdfitile that the latter could, coofidesstiy nit% the public filmy, remain in his place for a wok. I cannot help thinking tivertforo s tat the aims I s