Star. — London, England, 1816-05-08 00:00:00

airy. it in. have . 1... .... k ir b ut looking in that drneitiOne befeWhe 1111- 10 . a division on.certain subjects.—(Hein; hear.) 1 'd by an eloquent man, that a rebellion of itha th i ft ran beell L s o 3 r i d i s of the Bedchamber was of grea t er r than one of thirteen Colon teno t° a Min .te occasion perhap s it would be Colonies found o o _ the mi nt .__ .... n N os for the Minister himself, tt left to his own daor. .. , A me ddle with certain places. He had boom. •-_. . ~,a c al l e r; ► 'nee it was true, o f f three very olei c 'W in s — a 2)li ine ) into the nature p ftwodss, to elan . offices o ir A w n conoections--offices into which they could not o , k wi th a very. pey . iug d e d ye.—(llear, hear.) The Home shout 0 underst a n d e t r h stan o d os point , and if they. Tr o meant tocher si 1 go i -ts il l o f t he People, 601 „ representtaryiebs.t Nobleet oug l it . to be, t hey would AA the Muti . ot: o cn is tr friend, and ful fi l the Tor BlIsN(AN1s;G; referred r the h ear. ) Noble; who had • s py' en to his Noble Friend, the mover of the pre he ' 0 q uesiion, for information as to the tact, that /Im o of the Treasury could act as lionotirahly as biest ifon a public question—(hear. hear.) On the subjeci•ot the late Committee, of which he 4 Lord Bi n d l og) was a member, he had to call for the pa tr i d the dunce until they had had time to ina i ore a . at I inquiry—(Hear, hear); at the ~ mi l e time, fly concurring in the sentiotents of the llonourable con i c/n o opposite, that retrenchment should be ac ei Eon to the fullest Cut nt. It had been echoed w Gentlemen opposite, • that Government stood f e nd to a system of retrenchment. It now ao id, that as soon as they were ! nifesting -a dis r i° ion to calry their intentions iiit in o effect, toe Gen n opposite immeliately clianp,ed their note, and declated that 3c/en:meta could roil be ,yd,—(sew, hear.) They commence then with Mining their cz.nlidence to Government, embarked is Administration - is in the principle of economy.— (:l an h e ar, *ear I from the Utz/wiling Beausee.)— The test& of the labours of the Committee would, fat ins convince at least nine out of ten of • the public of the sincerity of the views of Government inthis respect. The Noble Lord then proceeded to skew the anxiety which they manifested on this occa sion, by statics that the Treasory were anxious to have the ltultial commenced with 1793, though the c on3m i ss o m eripreferred it from 1798, the latter time embrocing the most important recent-officer, to which ailention was called. Had they not pursued this view ofthe case, the Gentlemen opposite would have come Jaya with their host of ob j ections as to the re spite pedociat which the inquiry was undertaken.— n e denied that the appointment of the Committee ark" the Treasury Minute was suggested By the Nettle Lord's notice of a motion : op tie contrary, lung before this evect„ such an inquiry was set on (044, and the Committee was arpointed merely to ac ciente it. That inquiry was not confined to mete deb in office, but extended to higher and more im portant s'totati , zs-(tlear, , hear )—He had not Ro man rico e nough to feel lightly on the imperative duty of depriving. men of emoluments which they vetch, the habit of receiving. Me: Burke well said; ; " that antimony savours :nod) of unkindness, and thstevcry reduction amounts in its extent to a pro portionate degree of punishment."— (Hear)—Bqt he file it his doty, as a member of the Committee ap-' p ioted, to proceed, without favour, to the dUchine tit his duty, and he firmly hoped, that the result of tilt labours would shew that they had seriotody at hurt t h e true feeling of the country. Mr. DROUGHAM observed, that Whis first opi. sin on the propriety of his Noble Friend's motion ad been ( which it teas not), in auy manner doubt ! . ,4 , ,e sotech of the NObie Loud who had Just sat an would have confirmed that opinion, and eon:t atty turned the scale of his indecision. The Noble d had commenced by asking -shether Ministers, • . stood form shy iis dged for 'retrenchment, were be ruistrotted? To llos he (Mr. Brougham), had reply, that true they had given pledges, which e never redeemed, they had given promises, which ere meet performed—they had committed their re. • sibility ; but what had they done in the execution their tr u st ?—He denied, noto.ithstanding all that been said of retrenchment, throughout the whole iftbis Session there had bean the slightest disposi lift manifested on the part of his Majeoy's.Ministers *effect such a desirable object, in any one branch of &public service.—( Cries of Thar, from the Ministerial *ha )—Upen that issue le would .put the clues tiro; for upon looking at the papers on the table of the House, so far was he from tinting that there was a diminution of officers and salaries, he found that thee tras, on the contrary, an increase of 81 86.900 ladled upon the public. • Such was the result of pledges which had been given ; and this. too, after tieing credit for certain diminutions, which for shew. Itaot for substance, had taken place. The total imam was £200,009 for which, with a view to his , !pant, he contended he had a right to take credit.. lbe, at a time when the country was at profound' Pt*, £136,000 had been added to the permanent non' expenses of the country. Its the previous y ear ' increased expense amounted to 41G0,000 , and in , I thisyoy every year produced an. enormous addition ' TUltsalaries and e moluments of o ffi ces, while, on uleoth er side, nothing in the shape of retrenchment w as In be discovered. It was true that retrench: 'ln was talked of, and merit assumed for a ilimi. ' of public expenses ; but of what did this 41 consist ? One item of diminution em. apless a suns than 830,000. Where did this' 4 why, in a department in which, under the rcurnstances o f of ftbt ble a shad ow nami ng country, it was utterly impos. pretence could have existed tOr the expense which had been curtnled:—. l e alluded to the department of the Master of the °g l !, its which, in the year before last, it would be ev°ll ectedo considerable disbursements arose front vitits of certain Illustrious Sovereigns to this theit " l3ll , .7'. There was no longer the same excuse for ; ___ n acnarsesnents, and yet his Majesty ' s Ministers, other l 7,,lt.. things, placed this deduction as an item 1 2 15 2Intalt the increase of 4200,000 to which he '4„.44:4 utted--(Heor, hear.) Under timilar circum various other diminutions had taken place, IV / bein fact, d in I go i n no pretence to continue-the ge upon the public. He would not fatigue the , t_date by a detail of the increases which had taken ! E vi l. but would select one or two instances by way ..llstratson. The first which presented itself to his —Was the department of the Commissary. In ...,„"liaartineritit might rationally be supposed at the " K4 slnn of the war thkt great and extensive curtail -1444 *"l4 take place-;-bp t what' was tin fact ?So 1:111.•••!, . . fro& a • eteertise helms O'brierietble t there bad bliell an adtnal increa‘ Of 41.5s900,Per:anPume—(leer. ' The same observation was to,beinade with reg ard or the deparnient of the' Master-beneral of ilk Ord. nance. Here there Was an increase of Officers . and emoluMents, Withntit any `.astisfactori reason . being assigned. In the Customs, there had been the enor- • mous increUse of 134 new officers, With ass expense of £137,000. •It would, no doubt; be said, tkiat even in this department there hail been :some diminu tions—but even allowing for theter.there was still a, balance of. 110 new officers created, and a salary of £GO,UOO, all which had taken place in the cnotse of the . last year, and,whieh.yet remained.to bee.s plained. This explanation, he submitted, could only be satisfactorily given in a Select Committee 'of tbe, House. In the Excise, there was an increase-of - four officers, with no Jiminiftion in s , laries, but. on the contrary. with an increase of £E24,0i?0, The kin nourable and Learned Gent!emin next referred to the Mint, in which, notyllthsuindink.all that n had, been said of the ineffectual labours of this depart 7 ment, an increase of officers and salaries had also taken place. He selected those from many others by way of sample—and, with these facts before them, he Would ask the House whether there wa,s not just, ground to doubtthedisposition id Itrinizters to varench? Ile begged here to state, that he was inclined to withdralv his confidence irons his Majeity's,.l4ini sters, not because lie doubted their power to retrench, but because he doubted their inclination I . and he cause he had this doubt it was that he should Sup port the mnt:on of his Noble Friend. There Men several other beads of expenditure not leis important' than those whrch he had mentioned, and in which, in his view, an unjustifiable increase had taken place.- He alluded particularly to the I3oard of Works.. Here there were not alone an adehtion mace to the salaries of officers already in existence, but officers which before had never been thought of were intro duced. Of this description was the Surveyor Gene ral of Works, at a salary of £lsoo.—attached ' tests, as they were termed, at a similar salarpe-and twelve labourers in. trust, at an expense of re1200:so-:. year. These were all perfectly new officers—and their appointment, .he contended, furnished addie tionA arguments for a rigorous scrutiny, whico_could , alone prove satisfactory to the public. (Hear.) • Ja dependent rt these minute items, however, there were, other sources of expense into which. he conceived, it tvellbecame the House to inquire, in order ti .tt ii might be ascertained whether the salariesof persons of higher station in she country might.ont be Armin's:red- for retrenchment among these persons ha had looked in vain. The Honourable and ..eatned Gentlem.fat then Adverted to the offices of the Lay Lords. of the Ael miralty, as they. are called, the Lords of the Trea .sirry, and the Board of Controul, many of which. he observed, were totally useless. He decidedly thought the pruning knife should be applied to such sinecures. They exhausted. the finance of .the cOontry without doing it one single .service. If the negociations which the Noble Lord so highly extolled were .woith even the price of the paper, ph which -they. were written—if the victories achieved by our defenders were worth the money .employed in their celebration, then we were certainly now in a ate. of protound reposei in whiCh all clamour,* isinewaties•was hushed, and we. had.certaioly„ if the Noble Lord was to be accredited, no enemy to dread, no quarter from which we could possibly dread Any attack. , 04 Then, in the name of GOD ! kit us, as honest men. chew ourselves not so much the guardians of the public purse .as the guar .dians Of the ceestitutional rights of our countrymen, and thus, during the prorogation of Parliament, we will be enabted. manfully to. meet our ..canstituturta with the solid heartfelt-iatittactioo.. that t a. Ilviliesvn tatives of the people of England, and•as upright men, we had done cur dirty.'"=(Hear, hear). • • •Mr. ROBINSON said, that the speech of the lio tiomaille and Learned Gentleman throughout WAS a complete fallacy, inasmuch-as it had been founded upon papers which.relerred tourrangements made ip the last year, at a time of war, and which were in no respect illustrative of the state of the public depart ments as they existed in the present day. The Right. Hon. Gentleman then' proceeded to detail many of the diminutions which had taken place in the course of the present year .in the offices of Government. — With -respect to the Officers alluded to by the Melia. Gentleman, as having been appointed under the Board of Works, he observed, that their appoint ments were sanctioned by an Act of that House two years back, after a full explanation and discussion.— 'The Right Hon. Gentleman then went on to contend that the duties of the Lay Lords of , the Admiralty,' the' Junior Lords of the Treatary,7 and the Members of the Board of Control, were arduous and effective, and by no Means sinecures, as the lion. and Learned Gentleman. had insinuated. Mr. LAMB wee decidedly , of opinion that the 410- tion of lilt Noble Friend deemed the support.of the House. That there was ground for inquiry, no matt could possibly doubt, who was atull.acquainted with the preient state of public affairs. That -inquiry 12 certainly- thought could not be better conducted than by a Committee specially. instructed by .the House.. He had the greatest possible respect for the Lords of the Treasury;. but he- could not approve of any in. qUirysbeing carried on under their immediate super intendence. The matter at issue was not whether this House should, in appointing this Committee, lithwart the design for-which.the Treasury Committee bad beeneppointed. He saw nothing to prevent the two Committees being bot% carried on together:. He disliked the technical arguments of-the Chancellor Of the Exchequer—that the Session ,was - now too far ad- vanced, and that Committees weft' tedious. ..Such arguments were ill adapted. to the present state of the feeling s of the people of England. The question eras not the tediousness of Committeetv but it was simply this— ,, Shall we, the Representatives of. the People of England, now shew ourselves really dis posed. to attend to the sufferings of that people ? Shall we thew them we are ready to do whet we profess, and disposed to redeem those pledgefi ere have so often given them r'- .(Hear, hear, hear.) — When he spoke of pledges he meant not to alludo tO the formal studied Speech from the. Throne, or to the Address, which was, as usual s ,i mere echo of the, Speech. But he alluded, to the pledges the House had given by the abolition Of the Property Tax,-and by the consequent doviulal of the Malt.'fax--two,of the most oppressive, iniquitous,. anktyrannic4l bur- : eobwith which a tree nation had. Grp. I,ein insulted. (Cheer:.) But what availest . all the independent ex- tlta Ronne Foe Whai itirpose iiii :so isifee'done Men th e Home 'at ante cot roil lilliffsfers.ll:ercirnte of aH tatatioo, attcgalri i hern'not even empty hopes ? (Hear:). But rte "ge Ouch afraid the principll (+yet Or too matii Was t* gam a nth popularity,' wlile delusive hopes. wire . -held ottt to the country. We had indeed . rid one; *glees of two galling to rations, but what availectsucH relief when, unless we cut off the principle,of 'tin, Ministers would i :Tose taxes equally,. more oppressive • (amt.) he* bepoked aspire the Noble Lord, the country ‘as at present in A Vert: siisrharrassed' situation. We had had.a extraorf dihary* war, and that War had lacep followei'ly. a peace eq'isally extraordinary. He did not vtoii3i3; at the embarrassment arising from the war, wlizn it was considercd.that the Country bad endured years ok co:1 7 vulsion which bad sliaketrthropes to their centre; acid had shat(ered .lystems . of finance by putting them through the fiery ordial.of bankruptcy. Our country had stood like a rock amid these awful convulsions of nature 8. and though she had been strongly is-sailed by the dorm, slie had.hltherto withstood the But novil she &mantled from us st,thething to In done.— she looketrop with confidence io•the enlightened ge nius cifleirliament, and loudly hopped to see tlie.taa divided etiergiis of that Hotise employed in her Mid . ", Lc was 'consolatory to Ischout the nsanly independent spirit of oar eousKrynnea amid the awful pressure of circumstances, the readiness with Which ell classes contributed to each others regiet, and their lorbtar. done to complain-qt./ern., Lai-, hear.) Tie 2y had an emmtesti .nable right not on 4 to expect, but to de mand aid from l'arli.inient. He was sorry to say, that since he had the honour of being returned to the House, he had witnessed the utmost apathy on the part of Ministers to afford relief to the country— ( Hear ) An apathy which certainly in no degree corresponded with the immense *sacrifices the country had made. But though the voice of the people was at present calm, though they maintained a solemn stillness, he implored Ministers not to be deceived: h was certainly right that matters of economy should begin with the Executive Government, as from their situation they were naturally supposed to be best qua lified to decide what should or should not be adOpted. ' But though this was the duty of Ministers, it did not follow as a Matter of course that they were anxious to discharge that duty. He Was afraid the country was indispensiblY called to be jealous of Ministers, to distrust their measures, and to place no confidence whatever in'any thing they suggested—(llear, /secy..) The people of England had a right, en unquestion able right, to demand that Ministers should do their dotY—(Hear.) Reform, it at all effefted; was only to be &meta, that House. 'lf retrytichmenis were ta be carried into effect, he was afraid Ministers were not qualified to do so. It required meri Of more ta. Itnts, men of more firmness and independence mind than he . beliered them to be—(Heir, /Iry would say more, for he believed, that let Idtais ters make all the rettencliments they possibly coulfl, it was impossible.'a single proceeding of theirN could' give the smallerit satisfaCtion too the people 6f F.og land. The country knew too well, and had alfeady bad too sad , experience of the line of 'policy adopted by',Midisters, and of the tniaLiv, 7 i Whieliactuated,them, to eepeet any iidletiatitin front , single meaiitreithicly they proposed, The very fact of the retrenchment being proposed by" Ministers, was of itself* etiongh to make it suspicious--(Rior, bear)—Nor had he formed this opinion on alight kronnds. When be Coas;dered .the proposal Ministersitad made' for a continuation Of the Income 'Vu, from which they had been driven by the enlightested,ezertimis of the people—when be cousidered the manna : in which they had produCed the estimates, be no hes itafion in saying they hid loaded themselves with the reproaches of the coun try7-Sliear,,,,hear).--.-Their cianduct 'had given too touch calcitic to the ;anguage act Opted Or so gene rally through the country, viz. that it wai best to withhold all money from Ministers, and' they would then become very goo - damn; He was sorry such lan guage should be used SbutMinistersotily wemtobla me. By a blind neglect of or contempt fur the voice of the people, they had awakened an alarming jealousy avast their measures which predicted awful cause spiences..:lhey had foifeited the claims of confidence they might formerly have had, and thus made the interests of the people and Ministers separtite from ' each other. He knew, as well its the Noble I.ord possibly could, the consequences a being niggardly, and lie detested as much as his Lordship the idea of .being so. But let the tlatile Lord remember, that 'the people had not been niggardly in the sacrifices they bad made. Let him remember, they had bane with patience burdens unparalleled , in the history of 'oar country i and that it was no .more than just to 'give them a respite. Ministers might probably thus : acquire some respect with the people, which, he wail • sorry to say, their present measures bad completely forfeited. • • r Lord CASTLEREAGH had listened with atten tion.and even satisfaction to the admirable speech of the Honourable Gentleman, who had .just sat &tyke. Indeed, upon all occasions hewas much gratified with the talents and ingenuity of the Honourable Gentle man. He ,concurred with him. in the genexaLPfill:,' ciple he 'had ,laid down, and certainly thought no administration entitled to the respect or cool dence of the country, which did not. zealciusly pur ple a system of economy founded on rational grounds and agreeable to the genius of the constitution. There was a feeling implanted in, the breasts of the people of this, country, .which led them to - expect the. most rigid attention on the part of Ministers to shc 11- • a rational well-founded system, and 0E404 WARY, .Ministers scorned the voice of the people, oe : irm..itt-, attentive to the calls for economy , their polair4ol istence deserved to be short-aved, He, ,hOWnt e drew a different conclusion from the prepig&W, down by the Honourable Gentleman, as be cetainlly ‘ thought the people of this country knew their too well to be. induced to become the: adliesen , 4 any party wko clarnoured against Ministers.-{, , :aid a, /avh).-,.The. people knew that Mini4era ad 1 marital them through difficulties unparallele d iq great - flees and extent, and he trusted the country would never solar forget its interests as deny its confidence to. those .who bad so successfully advocated their came. If the' Honourable Gentleman, however, thought those around him, better entided to,Ftublic c onfidence than the present Ministers,' let.him bring that tide to the test, hit him leave the public to decide in tilt too riA candid manner. •Of 'theresiilt of that he had ao doubt, but he deprecated the Attempt to cover blinisteretvith cctatempt. Independent of the voice of the people", hee-wOuld never cease to advise the CroWn in the mannitifie'thoteht most likely to pro. mote erieril good, and to secure the permanent inte. rests of the empire. The case before the House was divided into two questions peilectly distinct—the one relating to the patronage-and influence of . the Como ; the Miter to the reduction of the public eepense.—. After complimenting the in6deration of the Noble Lord who had brought fortiard the Motion, he el. pi...m(l his regret that the Noble Lord had given hia countenance to the dt : lision attempted to be practised on die Country, as comprehended in the assertion, that di etmlst that could be dons in the .Way of economy could affeed any practical relief to what were called the stfirerings of the country. Witb re. speet to the patronage of the Crown, the way in tels:ch it had been considered lorthat House in the ,1111'wh.ch had originated in an Hon. Genthwan on the'bancli below was, nat that it was excessive, that illeprinciple of active service, rather than that sirwcare, ought in belnduced into it. Such was the'reibtrded'opinion of that House in the Resolutions after much discussion, were entered on their •Jpurnals. If the Noble Lord thought that the is 1. ence•ol . the Crown, had increased to a degree darge. rots td the libeities of the eosin* let hint bring the principle under the 'cOnsideration of Parliament ; but let him potion the pretext of economy, strike at rho legitimate influence of the Crown as it existed in the Constiention - , 'end as it had always been sanctioned by Parliament. On the question as to the course which Parliament ought to take With respect to the revision of the ofliccs either of old or of new creation, he concurred in the argument of his Ho:iourable Friend, that it it were meant to do this w e ll and .quickly, Parliament ought not to Lile upon itself, in • the first instance, the functions of the Executive Go. vernment. It was contrary to common e sense to take the business in the first instance out of the hands of those who must necessarily he the le st informed with respett to it, and to throw it, with all its crudities, into the bands of those who could not he Acquainted with the interior organization of all 'hose offices on which they were to be called upon te prenounce. His Honourable Friend had by no means coritended, that Perliement opght at no time te go into an in quiry on thirsubject i alt that he had contended was, that they were not the moat competent to originate rich ateintleiry. . However the Gentlemen opposite migght run creee with thevernmene on this subject, it they . were in potver, they c.,uld not pretend to do it in a Ceinimittee of that House. This was so' ob *ions, that it was only necessary to state it. All he required was, that the responsibility should be. left the first instance where it ought to.he. telt. namely, in the hands of thettitecutive officers of Government. If the. teasening of the Honourable and Leained Gentlens should thid the'House to feel a want of ,c en4dence inbit'nejesty'e'Minieters, the best ceurse they c..ukl take would' be' to remove three Ministers, ' but not to net towards them id *a way that must e esineile the sereice. prOksted against the lieshanition of the lierienrable and Learned Gentle. man, that his M.ejesty's Ministers had done Shy thing justly to forfeit the Confidence of the conntry. It ought to: belto distnialificaticd of them, that, after 'haviiii.olleverthe reunify of 4even millions. they 'had advised' Perliament toCoptinue a productive tee, notisermanently e 'hut 'for two years, to sustain 'the cred4'df the eerie:Ty, and by that means the more effectually to diminish the pressure on all cheees..e. Nor did the mode in which the Army Estimates had been submitted to the House; or the manner and ex tent of 'the reductions, which their sense of the public • service warranted, justly subject Ministers to the loss of the public confidence:. Until the actual settlement of peace, it would hot hake been prudent or wise to commence the reductions of the military establish ments, although those ef the Navy were begun front the moment of the victory of Waterloo. The mili. tary reductions, however, .when they were cern. menced, proceeded as rapidly as was consistent with the true interests of the country. In one week, after 'the rathicstiup of t he Treaty by France, the expesie ditnre had been reduced from So to 30 Millions. It had next been a matter of reproach to Ministers, that in the course of the discussions in that House, they had disclosed to Parliament all tfie reductions Which they lied intended, although they were not described in the first instance. Without diminisliine the credit due to the activity of the Holeureble Grielernaft opposite, he in conscience believed that the vent mass of the reductions which had taken place in the Esti mates, would have occurred without the 'display eif that activity. In fact Peiliaentint had coiocided in the yiew taken ,by Ministers of the subject, for not et man of tore original number proposed was detailed, altheigh 'in the enlace details which there had not been sufficient . One consider in, the first instance, and on. some - of whit . ); Government had not come to a concinsiice opinion, piddifitations hadeakeu place. It aJ , been diitinetly declared,' when the eittinates Were originally s presented; that they were" not d'elftir thO'Whole jean Government *eminent:zee. louste employed ip the ectiee,eeview of thoshefepeite mentsof the.puhlic .iervice,, in which reduction of thipidelic hippest.. could he: 'effected ; but chit was - 0 !abhor. whi'ith freen,itSiviture, and from the situation of effeirs'ai the clese a e hieg War.,:thiictuld not be of short datetion . .... Nis demo of diligence would„ hoWever, he;. wanting rip ..tlo4jeet: . would he dilibeatly puretted„briss trleiseity l l . tigittisters, tinder the eiecere .and strong iespression that theYWould, , and that they &reit to lise ;hi, confidence of the ceuetsye e unless• they introdaed the utmost practi econqmy :kite the, pUbliC ',eererice. But they ildneverruu arace of public ecoritimywith the Ho. ,oautebte Gentlemen opposite, et the risk of sacrificing eFeeniblil interests. Tile: would, never endeavour 1. 40 gam the public. favour by.any other means than elanee which, as they hid carried the country through the dangers, of war; would; his ,trusted, 'entry it 'through be diffitul ties of peace. •e- • e't Mr. TtERNEY deduct!, that he conia not re frain (tem. expressing his hearty indignation at the `Most eXtratirdinary speech which-had jest' hien . made by the Noble Lord. If lie: (Mr. Tierney) had ever seen'e sense of . danger marked by the assamption of a loud tone— e it he ; had ever seen an attempt, by the ',affectation of a sun . ; to hide reed tlegiadicem—if he had ever seen a inan - eitdeevouriug to leek tail by running.about on ,tilts--if he had ever seen A Minis. ter, conectous that he waS repidly sinking in public •Iskion. he had witneteed eleese sights thet (Hear, haer.)—The Nobb had escueed "' yyi ~~ 1 L•-