Star. — London, England, 1809-05-12 00:00:00

PA RL IA M.EATARr PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF COMMONS, THURSDAY, MAY 11. The Irish Assize Fees Bill was read a second time. The Charitable Donation Bill was read a second time, and committed for Tuesday. Mr. WILBERFORCE presented a petition from Wakefield, against the Woollen Manufacturers Bill. A long conversation ensued on the Retiree of an inebeeure bill, in which Mr. GIDDY, 1111T.G. VAMITTART, Sir J Geeues, Sir J. New eoRT, and Mr. W. SMITH took a 'part. The Report was subsequently received, and ordered to be engrossed. Mr. SHAWE LEFEBVRE moved for a copy of the Report of the Commissioners appointed to examine into the state of Culdbath Fields prison, which was agreed to. • ORDERS IN COUNCIL. The Order of the Day was moved by Mr. ROSE, to consider the Navigation Act. What was now proposed, the Right Hon. Gentleman stated, to be in the same spirit of moderation which had characterized our conduct towards America, whom it was • proposed by Government to treat with as great favour as any other country in the world. • Mr. WHITBREAD Wished to learn from the Right Honour able Gentleman, or :my of those about him, what was the real state of our relation, with America, as far as they could he made known 1 lie desired to be infermed, if possible, of what seas the Present situation of things between the Governments of the two countries, and whether the substantial concessions that Govern nse it were now making, were likely, in the estimation of Go verment, to maintain and secure the relations of peace and amity. The Orders of Council, he was glad to find, were in a very great degree abandoned. He was glad of it—and he had no present wish to taunt the Administration with any observations on their conduct respecting to proper a measure. But when they were row called en to legislate upon the matters connected with our inteecourse with America, he thought that the House should have afforded to them some information on the actual state if affairs. Mr. ROSE stated that the Honourable Member was incorrect in presuming that we had made any concessions to America, though it was true that we had thought fit, under a change of Cir cumstances, to make various limitations and alterations in the effect of our Orders in Council, which alterations were in some respects stricter than as the matter stood before, but in others more easy. As to the actual state of affairs between the two countries, the Honourable Member perhaps knew as well as he did. What had been done arose from changes in the circum stances of the case,and alterations with respect to continentalaffairs. Mr. WHITBREAD said, that he could obtain no answer to his question from the observations of the Right Hon. Gentleman. if the state of the Continent were the cause of these changes in our Orders of Vouncil, then he desired to know what those changes were, which had occurred since July, 1808, up to the time of our alterations in ow Orders ? Mr: ROSE repeated, that we were now in a different situation with respect to the Continent. Mr. WHITBREAD wished to know whether the Right Hon. Gentleman meant to say, that we were in a different situation as to Spain since that period, so as to account for our being, in last July, so rigid, and at present so relating—a relaxation so great, : but which the Right Hon. Member ca/led Rb departure from the •riginal system. Lord HENRY PETTY said a few words on the same side. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER contended, that the alteration of our policy arose from the alterations that had taken place in the situation of Europe, relatively to this country, l as well as to sonic alterations as between us and America. A great difference occurred in our foreign relations by the event of peace with Turkey, and a farther alteration arose from the changed situation of Austria—and he should have thought that the HOD. Member might have felt the effect of such changes, and the bear ing of these and other'considerations upon the Spanish and Por tuguese Colonies ; and that he might have seen bow far relaxa tion became necessary, when America was availing herself of these new situations of commercial affairs. If the Honourable Member wished for farther discussions on the subject, he should be ready to enter upon them; but he would contend, that the sne: its of our proceedings towards America stood on the same grounds as before. Mr. WHITBREAD was aware that the Right Hon. Gentleman would prefer future discussions to present explanations, since he believed him to he unprepared with the means of accounting satis factorily for the recent changes in his policy on that subject; but yet he cilled on the House, in this want of information, to legis late. Compare dates and facts, and see if there were any foun dation for saying, that our relations with Spain, upon the princi ples of the Right Hor.. Gentleman opposite, bad occxsiotied our relaxations only. In March last, upon his motion, Ministers s lid, that no relaxation.: could be permitted, though they knew then what was going forward in America. 1 he Chancellor of the Exchequer had proceeded to bring it the cases of Turkey and Austria, but the treaty with Turkey had been known before any alteration was made, and the business of Austria occurred only a few day s back. He could not think that he had received any fair answer to his question. After some observation from the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, Mr. Rose's motion was carried, purporting that goods, wares, and merchandize,should be allowed to be imported in American vessels. BIIIBEEtY AT FurTloNs. Mr. Craven's Bill was read a first time. The Bill proposes to eiract, that any person selling or purchasing seats in Parliament in any (tray, should forfeit a sum to be named, and disabled from sitting in Parliament ; and rust agents convicted of such practices ' should be liable to a penal.y to be named ; and that an oath be imposed on the Member elected, wf kb, in case of offences against the proposed Act, should subject the party to the penalties in flicted on those convicted of perjury. I\ Ir.cURWEN hoped that the House would agree to the print ing of the Bill, and however incorrect the Bill might be in se respects, he trusted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer not oppose it, but rather lend his aid to supply any thing which its delis iences might require. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wished ratbor to have the BM printed, upon the second reading. He was prepared to give the Bill a full and fai: discussion, as he had originally stat ed, though it might appear so objectionable in some respects on the second reading, as not to render it adviseable to proceed far ther in the consideration of it. He had no objection to its going into a Committee, but be was desirous of seeing it in print, that it might be fully examined in its fundamental principles, and in all its bearings. The Bill was ordered to be read a second time on Tuesday next, and to be printed. • M. CIIARMILLY, ETC. Mr. WHITBREAD said, in alluding to something he had said on a former occasion, that he now understood that M.Char milly had no mission to Spain from the Secretary of State here; but he went there, it was supposed; rather front the circumstance of his commercial failure; and he had heard that his certificate had not been signed, owing to his absence. It was, howevr, rather odd, that, in the commissions, his name did not appear in the firms with which he was connected. He had received £..:000 from this Government, besides £3OO as a proprietor in St. Do mingo. He wished to know, and wished the Noble Lord to be emr.gh to enquire, whether there was not a letter in his office irtil:l General Maitland respecting M. CharmiUy f He was desirous of moving for an account of all Foreigners who held /3ri e3h Commi , sioris, and of all extra allowances made to them, and the reasons for such extra allowances, and what present service Ciev a employed in, whether on th e staff, or otherwise, and that such account be laid before the House. After some words from Lord CASTLEREAGH and Sir J. Pei, TY N EY, the motion was for the present deferred. A Copy of a Letter from Mr. MERRY, respecting Col. Ogle's levy, was laid l•cfore the House, bringing up the account to Oc tober 4, I WS. CHARGE AGAINST LORDCASTLEILF.WII AND MR. SPENCER r: , :ncEv Mr. MADOCKS rose and moved that the Reso lution of that House, past•Ll in the year 1779, be now read, which was accordingly done. The Resolution states, that it is highly criminal in his Majesty's Mi nisters to use the power they have by their official situations in directing or inruencinq the elections of Members to be returned to the Commons House of Parliament, which it describes as an Act contrtry to the independence, privileges, and dignity ofthat House, and an injury to the rights and liberties of the hubject, and subversive of the foundation of the constitution. Mr. MADOCKS then rose again, and moved that the Resolution, passed on the 25th of April last by the House be read, which was accordingly •e*! . (This was the Resolution passed Castlereagh, on the discussion of Archibald Hamilton.) th This RL. Substance, that if is e duty of the mons to maintain and guard the pur deuce of Parliament; but that the ___ charged not having been carried into effect, no criminatory proceeding appeared to the House to be necessary to be instituted. Mr. MADOCKS then rose and stated, that before he redeemed the pledge he had made to the House, and proceeded to state the facts, which, lie was confi dent, warranted him in the imputation he had made of conduct corrupt and criminal against the Right Hon the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Noble Secretary of State, he should hope that the House would allow him to make a few preliminary observa tions. He wished to abstain from any personal ob servations, and he could assure those two Right Hon. Members, that he was actuated by no personal mo tives. ,He was desirous even to overlook the m en , provided he could expose and reform the system to which he had called the consideration of the House ; a system which said, in effect, that corruption was ne cessary to the support and existence of the British Constitution, and that our Constitution, according to the best explanations and defence of its principles and practice, was without corruption, inadequate to the maintenance of our relations to foreign powers, and the means of our self-defence. He would repeat, that at any rate he had no stronger feelings against the two Right Hon. Members than they themselves had manifested against the conduct of another admi nistration, when that conduct was not such as to reach their approbation. He declared that he was np party man, except in so far as he was disposed to support those Gentlemen who held principles which he deemed it right to support ; and he avowed that he was a decided foe to corruption. He thought he could not do better than to recur to the Right Hon. Gentleman's (Mr. Perceval's) own words,4 when he maintained, that at no time had there been less cor ruption in this country than at the present, but yet stated that we ought to bunt out the instances of cor ruption and abuse, and expose them, and bring public offenders to public punishment. That Right Hon. Gentleman had stated on a former day that he (Mr., Madocks) had not observed the usual courtesy of the House, in having failed to give him a previous notice of his motion. If he recollected right, however, that Right Hon. Gentleman had two or three years ago, he meant on the subject of the Hampshire Election, met with complaints from Gentlemen then in power, that no notice had been given them of the motion which wa s so warmly supported by that Right Honourable Gen tleman. With the permission of the House, he would' read a part of his speech, to shew what sort of com plaints were then made against the conduct of the Right Honourable Gentleman and his friends. It was then said that it was always understood that some previous intimation should be given in the case of an important motion, and particularly in the case of one which attached some censure upon individuals, but that in that case not one word of any intimation had', been given. The Right Honourable Gentleman. at Ithat time maintained, that the case was one which involved the highest privileges and dearest interests of that House, and that the allegations were so seri- ' sous, that it mattered not whether there were any in timation. on the subject. Such, he believed, were the arguments then used in defence of the attack then made. His (Mr. M.'s) ignorance of the. history of his country had been complained of by another Right Honourable Gentleman (we believe, Mt. York) ; but how that Gentleman, with whom he had not the honour of being acquainted, came to tax him with such ignorance, he could not tell. Certainly, how ever, he must say that he had never read in the His tory of England that sinecure places were conducive to the public interests, or that rotten Boroughs form ed an essential part of the British Constitution. From t'ie time when the Honourable Member below him had taken soactive apart respecting the transactions of the Treasurer of the Navy in his official department, down to that when another Honourable Gentleman had so distinguished himself in discovering improper proceedings in the department of the Commander in Chief, such various and enormous abuses had been discovered in almost all the public departments, that he trusted the House of Commons would put them all into a train of investigation. But among all these instances of abuse, he thought the influence of the Treasury, in returning Members to that House, stood pre-eminent. If were to refer to good times, he might take the liberty of reading to the House a part of an excellent speech of• Sir John St. Aubyn, deli vered in that House in the year 1734, on the discus sion of a Motion for the repeal of the Septennial Act. [The extract contained a strong view of the influence of the Crown upon the House of Commons, and the dangerous effects to be apprehended, from the farther lessening of the representative rights of the people.— The last fatal compliment might be paid to the Crown by a subservient House of Commons, and the people might indeed.remain ; but the doors' of that House might be for ever shut against them. It makes a strong appeal to the wisdom and patriotism of the country gentlemen, whose elections are frequently interfered in and controuled by the influence of the Minister, and whose zeal and ambition to sit in that House would be increased by the superior means afforded them by getting rid of the influence of those officers of the Government who so often supplanted them.] The nature of this influence of the Treasury branched out in so many vays, that he had no inten tion nor time to enter at length into the subject ; but he thought there was one view of it in which it de manded the most serious consideration and investiga tion of the House—he meant particularly to allude to that practice by which sinecures were given in pay to individuals who nominated Members for corrupt Bo roughs. 'Phis money, he believed, was applied to a fund established for the purpose, and was doled out to carry on particular elections. He could enumerate several boroughs under the influence of the Treasury, through the instrumentality of the public money IThere was the borough of Hastings, where there was a Mr. 'Milward and. his Son, who were the agents of the Treasury in that place, the younger of whom was Comptroller of Excise, a place worth £1450 per annum, avd which in the case of a Parliament lasting seven years, produced a sum of £10,150 for that spe cies of agency in the representation of that House. There was the Borough of Rye, where there was a Mr. Lamb, who had a place under the Exchequer (the amount of which we did not exactly hear.) He we believe Queenborough), /ever .worthy these were of _ouse, he was about to state aggravated in the extreme. He Borough of Cashel, in which ,reasury acting in die teeth of the Resolution of the House, in violation of the principles of the Constitution, and inflicting a signal injustice on an individual for refusing to act contrary to his con science. In this instance that individual had acted in a manner strikinglycorrect, and such, as he thought, must meet with the esteem of every man in the coun try. He should conclude with a motion to call evi dence to the Bar to sub,tantiate his accusation. He should, to a certain extent, depart from the line he took on a former night ; but he must observe, that having looked again at the precedent lie before men tioned, he did not think that his conduct had been then irregular: He then proeeeded to state, that in the last Election, a sum was paid - through the nego ciation of Lord Castlereagh, to Mr. Henry Wellesley, as the Agent of the Treasury, by Mr. Quintin Dick, in consequence of which payment, the said Seat for the Borough of Cashel was obtained by Mr. Quintin Dick. He was likewise informed that M. Spencer Pirrceval Was privy to the transaction, and that Mr. Quintin Dick having taken his Seat in that House, did, puiding the discussions concerning the Admini stration of the Army under his Royal Highness the Duke of York, wait upon Lord Castlereagh, and acquaint him with the nature of the vote lie intended to give on that subject ; on which Lord Castlereagh, after consulting with Mr. Spencer Perceval, suggested to Mr. Quintin Dick the propriety of his relinquishing his Seat rather than give that vote. He hoped that in such a case the House of Commons would vindi cate its own purity and dignity ; • and quoted a pas sage in the Hampshire Petition, on which he passed ,an encomium, as worthy the perusal of the.country. He concluded by observing, that he had thought it his duty to bring forward this outrage on the inde pendence of the House ; and felt the more embol dened to do so from their Resolutions, which had been read to them. After the Honourable Member sat down, no motion having been formally made, Lord FOLKSTONE spoke upon the subject of the forms, in the precedent of Shepherd, and on the question respecting the withdrawing of the two Right Hon. Mernbees oppol site. Mr. Shepherd did not appear in the first in stance to have withdrawn, and his Lordship thought there was no reason for the two Members now to withdraw, as the charge was not yet before the House in a sufficiently substantial shape. If the matter was sent to a Comrattee, they would wait the result of that Committee ; and, if its report was accusatory, they might then withdraw. He thought that the mo tion ought previously to such a step to be proposed ; and, if it appeared objectionable, his Hon. Friend might withdraw it. - The SPEAKER was obliged to the Noble Lord for calling the attention of the House to the precedent, but wished to know whether the Honourable Member intended to pursue the same course he had before pro-I posed. If se, this was the moment to hear the Charge, and there was no compulsion at present on nny Member to withdraw. In the case of Walpole, Counsel was • heard previously, an instance rare in such cases in later times. It was not fOr him to say ) that the House was not at liberty to pursue the pre cedent, which case was conducted by Sir F. Sey mour, who !lad been Speaker of the House of Com mons, but there appeared no call in . the Journals on the party to withdraw. Sir JOHN ANS'PRUTHER explained.what he . had stated on a former night respecting the precedent of Shepherd. Mr. HORNER said a few words on the mode of ' proceeding. The SPEAKER wished still to know whether the Honourable Member meant to proceed on the prece dent alluded to. Then the Hon. Member must be heard as to what he might think fit to offer. But the Noble Lord was not quite correct in supposing that the parties had a right to vote, as they . were certainly interested in the question. '• The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that he was very desirous to conform to the wish and sense of the House, and was prepared to expect that the decision from the Chair would be adopted by the House. He expected that according to their ordi nary practice the individual charged would be heard previous to the motion being made. Bowing to the practice of the House, and not thinking it becoming in him to question and canvas its propriety, he thought that calling on a Member in the first instance was attended•wsth fewer embarrassments and difficulties, than by his remaining there during the discussion, under the supposed right of taking a part in the de bate, and abiding there, without the privilege at last of a vote on the subject. He was disposed, there fore, to conform to the practice, and, after saving few words upon the subject, to withdraw from the House. He certainly felt that it would be more con venient to the object of such a charge, to speak at the close . than at the commencement of it, as it worild enable him to - observe upon all the different tenden cies and bearings of the question ; but as the course was otherwise, lie must abide by that course, as. the most expedient to be pursued. He confessed that, with respect to the present occasion, he had felt and still felt considerable doubts as to the course which he should pursue in the address he' had to make to the House. If he had felt that this case was one ' of an ordinary nature, in which a criminal proceed. ing was proposed against any Member, or a Minis ter being a Member of that House, he should be disposed to•meet it by an open denial of such part of the statement made as was unfounded, by an expla nation of what was incorrect, and by an examination of the law upon the subject, to induce the. House to come to a proper opinion on the question t but he could not look on the subject in that light. The course of proceeding prevented him from that. The Honourable Member had, indeed, stated, in the corn mencement, that there was, behind this motion, a mass of other matter to be enquired into, whether against him he knew not, or whether it extended to an en quiry into who, or what former Government ap pointed certain Officers at Qucenborough, Rye, and other places, for the purpose of influencing the elec tors. By this statement, it did appear, that this was not an attempt to assert the dignity, or avenge the injured honour of the House in any particular case of offence, but merely a step in the pursuit of that plan and measure which had been already announced by lb gs , T A ; n the caw of Lord men another place (w the motion of Lord and thin stated, that hOvn .esolution 'states, in the consideration of the Ho the House of Come one case of a nature aggrav purity and indepen- I meant the case of the Bon e intention charged i he should spew the Treasur the Honourable Member ; and for which purpo, e • singles tint one act, not, he believed, jobnweollui)eirc;ttediwe Member . a y s i h against him and his Noble F r i en d, but to m a k e es ples, in order to impress the public mind with the. c projects T e he ssitpyropofotshed in at p o l a t i ti no o c f ,f re ti f l o e i peered' to be withdrawn, and this proposition was sill , . stituted in its stead, as the first step towards the tuatingof hie objects. When he saw, that in whatever shape lie made this. motion, he- was endeavourin g to ley down a peecedent for himself and for others,,he on his part, take care not to establish that most tia.;. gerous precedent, of entering into discussions of charg e , made without any proofs exhibited ; derived from a, knew not what sources of information,or thro ugh channels,, betweenan n e] s, or individuals theroug ( h He ar breach .o, by whichof wb C an i nO d e s rlC a . was to be called upon, on a mere statement, to cy. plain his own conduct, or to risk by his silence sumption on the part of ethers of kis share in the guilt of charges stated. He would say, that ee s practice were encouraged, it would lead to Cie este hlisliment of a system of inquisitorial pre fee e e ,, , highly dangerous to every species of honourabl e en-. fidence in private and in social life. W e Be e t times, in which we must see that it is a great ,rad eourite object nviifa many, to procure informatiei against public men, and that perms so emplovin e themselves actually endeavour and succeed in thin , into public estimation by such means. We saw in formation of this nature collected assiduouily free ; every quarter, by the violation of private confidence, ,by the seizure of letters (I/car!); in short, by ant means whatever by Which it can be obtained to make it the foundation if public charges ! Hear H , ear. ) He felt impressed with the opinion that it was moo consistent with the security and welfare of the Heusi and the public, that he should abstain from tikine .any notice of the charge made against him, if, indeed, it was a charge against him though indeed it ap. peered to be chiefly against the Noble Lord ; ler, .t was said that the offence was afterwards communi cated to him. He protested, however, against any inference being. drawn against him upon this ' , cc,;. sion ; but he should content himself a ith giving to the charge no other denial than his plea of net guilty, until he should know that the Ho use was disposed proceed farther on the subject. If the House should be disposed to entertain this charge, then indeed I e should be prepared, as lie was at that moment, to ac. count for his conduct satisfactorily to that House, and satisfactorily to his (mei honour, and should, in that case, be ready to give -an account•of the transaction as far as lie was colecerned . in it, at any time the iionee might please to appoint.• He hoped dot *Le had not 'conducted himself dispeepeotfully, bet he could not conceive, in the presetit times,' and under the present cireumstences, that public men on calla side of that House were to be called upon by a ince statement of imputed merits, to annle it 4 point if duty to enter into -the explanation of transactions, which might be of i.itrvate and confidential tratere. This was his opinion 'axed his feeling of this case, and he should, therefore, atter what .he had said, nt,ke his bow and withdraw, leaving the.h onse . free and unembarrassed to come to its *own deciiioh upon the subject. (Hear]. hear! hear Lord CASTLEREAGH then rose, and saidethat• he could not express what he felt on this eceisien better; nor more adequately, than by adopting tie statement which had been made by his Right Hon. Friend who had just left the House. He had nothing. to add to that statement, and fully adopted every part of it. Whatever might he the practice on simi lar occasions,' he could not, under the circumstatices in which he was placed, sit in the House during tie: discussion of the question. He did not conceive that he was, in the present stage of the business, beatid to give that explanation which he was confident lie ceuld, if it should be the pleasure of the House to enter into the investigation. To the House, there fore, he should leave it to determine, whether he should be called upon to . give that explaree tion, which at present he was prepared to do, if it appeared to him to be called for, on this occasion The noble Lord then made his bow and withdrew.) The SPEAKER then informed the Honourable Member (Mr. Madocks) that this was the proper time for him to make his election as to the course he should adopt. Mr. MADOCKS moved, that the House do, on Wednesday rent, resolve itself into a Committee cf the whole House, to examine into the matter of the said charge. - • • ..••• • Mr. TI E RNEY "suggested the propriety of having the paper, from which_ the _Hon. Member had read the information he communkated to the House, laid upon the table, in order that Gentlemen might have an opeortunity of ascertaining what the information was. At present they could only collect it froia what they could remember (et the speech of the Honourable i G nt e o nt d le ie M ij an ou ; sc an si d nc m e t a i r ie y concluded, could not possibly have any kn o eledge leron en au ‘be ra r b s ie . ‘ G vl rritl h eM 'd ai c a c ha rn d e of the information it conveyed. He thought it right .that before - the House should come to a vote, they shoeld know exactly whet it was upen which they were to decide. The precedent was then read by the Cleik at table. The SPEANER. then asked the I-lon. Member, whether it was h:s intention to follow up the wholeet only a part of the precedent'? The motion he had made contained a double question ; first, that tt,i; Charge be heard at ail, and next that, it be heard oa a particular day. If the Hon. Member were to tot low the precedent, he must be aware that when infor mation of the charge of bribery was given to the House, the Members were heard and withdrew; aficr which, when the House had divided, that the charge should be heard, a list of the places was seat to the parties, alter which a day was appointed fOr hex ing the matter of the charge. Mr. WHITTREAD was of opi:lion, that the mo tion of his Honourable Friend w;is sti ictly con!' ble to a recent precedent, when that House, information alone, entered into an invei which lasted many weeks (o:yean of the Duie,, His Honourable Fri en d cou ld not h ave ta, other course than that he had adopted; yet sure that he could have no objection to leave titular day cut of his, motion,' and then the ings would correspond with Shepherd's pi As to the observati( u of his Right Hon. Friel Tierney) that rminv Merrt•Ts were not in th( at the time of 11:s I totiourai2e Friend's speech, urpo x • ndicti v;:4 (Ice ex th the Project,,;. roj ec t .ip. n was 5 , 11..1. s the whatever sourin g to s,,he mu.% most (1a..... of charzei d from, ough w h at confidere,. mt, to C 7, nice r , tare in that ;1-: s to Cie esta- rnCeed ilfz ,, arabl e o n : e i n !at anci nformat:.'in errpi(rti n xi in rising Are saw :n. confidence, rt, by an 7 !d to !nab wr, Hea r !j was my:" the Hew ; om , if, indeed, eed it ap. conforma- upon or.l :stigazhw, r of rork). :aken :my he w:.11 e the f .• • proceed . iend he How.' :14 be 1,4.: