Star. — London, England, 1816-03-16 00:00:00

wor V/ rrt; •-, '; for, indeed, it was. by ,a navy alone that they could be protected. Because these isles had been put un der our protection, were we to maintain a military as well as a naval force for their defence ? Had we not a right to look to the people of the islands, many of whom were very rich, for a military force to pro tect themselves r He did not meen. he said, that we should cell'on them for contributions in aid of our revenue, but that they saould be required to give such contributions as %Might furnish the means for their protection., For his own part, he thought the, lonian Isles a burden on . the country. They were' given us by the Congress of Vienna because none of the other powers thought them worth keeping.— That Congress of Sovereigns, after amply providing .f.ar thernselvei and others, made us their residuary le g.iteeq, and gave us that which nobody else would take. lc .Ippeared that fourteen thousand men were to be . erneloyeef in our West-Indian colonies, in a time of profound and secure peace. In the year 1766, the whole of the force maintained by us in the West India Islands did not exceed 2092 men, although we then had all the possessions which now belong to us, except Trinidad, St. Lucia, Berbice, and Demerara; the whole of the force employed by Us at that time in North -America was less than what was now at tended to be maintained in Canada and Nova Scotia. With respect to our increased possessions in the West • Indies, he could not see in what manner they were useful to es. We first were at the expense of taking . them ; ani then we gave three millions to Holland for not gitiag them back ; whereas, he believed, it • would hale been much better to pay Holland that sum for taking the islands off our hands, for they did noanore than produce sugar which reicould not consume, and waste British capital which could not lee spared from the other islands. The Noble Mar quis next adverted to the enormous force which it was intended to keep up in Canada and Nova Scotia. If this great force was intended as a counterpoise to check any force of the United States, the object was futile, as we could never keep up a force equal to theirs. The population of Canada was alleged as' one reason for justifying this increase of force; but that was the very reason that should render the force unnecessary, for a population was created on the frontier for the very purpose of such defence, and acting as a check against the United State. With respect to St. Helena, he had no objection to the ar rangements that had been made for the safe custody of Bonaparte merely as a matter ,of policy, for it - was necessary that his person should be secured.— But, he would ask, what sort of policy was it in us to be at all the expense of keeping and seeming him? All the Powers of Europe had a joint interest in se curing him, and the expense - should be borne eou Illy by them all. He mentioned this circumstance merely to shew, that, wherever expellee was incurred, it be came the custom for the different countries connec ted with England to saddle it upon her by a kind of common consent. He should next come to the great military establiehment intended for Ireland. It was impossiole for him to disease this sta j atahout . saying a few words on the state of Ir,eland. In the actual state of that country 2'5,000 men would be wholly iraufricient to keep its people in order; and the use of these eaaa eat nee, - would soon require the employment of as mar.y more. The great man wl.O effected the union with Ireland had foreseen all these . • evils, and in bringing forward that measure he anti cipated certain benefits which had never since been granted. • Mr. Pitt had said, the consequence of the Uaion would be, to give the people the benefit of itish Legislation ; but no such thing had ever been done ; on the contrary, the Government, for the pur pose of raising a temporary revenue, had done every thing that was calculated to destroy the morality of the people; they had done every thing to promote the use of ardent spirits so destructive to the health and morals of the people. Like the Indians of Loui siana, who had cut down trees in order to get at the fruit, the Government had cut up the morals of the Irish people for the purpose of obtaiiiiug a paltry re venue. He next adverted to the force intended to he employed in Great Britain, which he conceived much greater than was necessary. In 1781, the peace esta blishment was 15,000 men. In 1792, it was 13,920, exclusive of 2,000 for Guernsey and Jersey. What, then, called for so large an addition as 8,000, to the force to be now employed at home ? One argument was, that it was necessary, for the purpose et supply ing our garrisons abroad. But, it he had shewed that smiler garrisons would be sufficient, then that reason tell to the ground. Another case was, the .necessity of employing troops for the protection of the revenue. This system he considered detrimental to the disc ip inn and character of the force employed. Buz, leaving this cinaideration out of the question, it was worthy of observation, that the force which had received tl.e greatest increase, as that which was the most expensive, and the least calculated for such • a service—he mean! the bray horse. The amount of that force, in 17 fr 2, was 785 men e --in 1802, 3,4, and 5, it had prngressively increased to 1,456 men— and it was nov• re) lass than I,74l—being double the number of 1792. This force was, of all others, the least applicable so those public services which were stated as a reason for keeping up so many troops, at the same time that they were more expensive than any other. The charge of fitting out a light dragoon .being £49, while each of the horse guards cost £63. There was, therefore, no economy in the selection of the troops, even allowing the gross number to be ne cessary. The Noble Marquis then observed, that the duty of the guards and garrisons might be performed by bOOO or 10,000 men picked from the 26,000. who, (over and above those who were returned dis abled) were receiving pensions, instead of employing. erdioary troops. There was another force too, he meant the marines, that would' be useful in the same service. He now came to the Staff of the Army. which he coeiiidered entitely aoo large, as compared 'With the body of force to be kept up; and the ex pense he looked upon to be excessive. In 1761, the chew of the Staff of Great Britain evas about 1 56th of the charge of the whole army. In 1784. it was less than 1-100th. In 1786 ' it was about I.looth. In 1792, it wai 1.90t 1t . And in 1816, as appeared by the papers on the table, the charge. Of the Staff was equal to 1.17 th of the expense of the whole Ateny.—(Hear, hear.)—So that in the' course of fifty years, this expense had increased trona-one-100th to one-17th of the expense of our military establishment. (Hear, hear, hear). Re knew a valuable increase had keg made so the - • • Staff, but be did not think any pessli;le god anti 1 be derived to the army, equivalent to such an nor• mous accumulation of expense. The Noble Marquis then applied himself to the different heads of Ord nano", Barracks, arid Commissariat avartments, is each of which, he *contended ( is reduction ought to take place, at a period of pew) and tranquillity. He partizularly adverted to the folly of continuing a salary of 41600 or 41700 per annum, for keeping up a military communication across the river Med way—and alto the uselessness of keeping up the Mar tell° Towers, at a great expense. When this coun try was threatened with invasion, it was feared that the French fleet might sail up the Thames and destroy Rochester bridge. In which event a military commu nication was very properly formed across the river, at another point. But certainly there was no necessity far keeping up that communication now, when we were at peace with all Europe. He expressed himself hostile to the erection of barracks in England, and ob served, that the sum of £160,000 which was charged in the Estimates, for erecting them and keep ing them in repair, was sufficient to providefirst flaor lodgings for all the soldiers in England.— On the whole, his Lordship expressed his opinion, that, for all the purposes of foreign and domestic security, a much smaller force would be sufficient— and that any force, beyond what the security of the country absolutely called for, must be mischievous. It was not by numbers that our army had acquired its glory. Nor did our security at home call for an immense military force. We might rely, in the hour of danger, on the inherent bravery and pa triotism of our people, without introducing arncrapt them that love for military parade which was foreign to their manners and habits. In what did the sects• rite of a country consist?— " Not it. lalsk.raised battlements, or lofty mounds, In moated castles, or in stronvb:tilt tow'rs, But man, bieb•mlntled man." This was the emphatic expression of an individual,) who united the talents of the poet with the laborious industry of the man of business. The Noble Mar quis, after some further observations, in which he placed in a very strong light, the jealousy with which the Parliament and people of this country had always viewed the keeping up of a Standing Army, concjuded by moving— " That an humble Address be presented to Ms Royal High. nes. the Prince Regent, to thank his Royal Highness for being pleased, in compliance with their desire i to lay before the House the Estimates of the Military Branch of the public service They observe, with grief and content, that the amount of the Military Establi•hment, in time of peace, so greatly exceeds :hat which was thought necessary at tiny former period, (or the safety of the country, especiaby when no enemy threatens the safety of his Majesty's dominions. They siew, with regret, the cuutinu ance of those burdens, by which the channels of industry are in. vaded, and which can only be relieved, by a redaction in every part of the public expenditure. they, therefore, humbly beg his Royal Highness to order such reductions to be made in the amount of the Estimates raw laid before the House, as will be consonant with the state of our finances, and conlo rmable with the ancient and establisised principles of this country." Earl BATHURST proceeded to answer several' of the points advanced by the Millie Marquis. It was considered necessary to the defence of our Indian possessions, in consequence of the attacks of various Powers, to keep up 20,000 men in India, and until some favourable accounts were received respecting the permanence of the peace lately concluded, at would be impossible to diminish the number now proposed. There were altogether 43 principal colo nies ; of those 17 had been acquired since 1792. There was a great istcreaseror the colony of trppel Canada since 1792 Newfoundland had also greatly increased in population, since 1791 the inhabitants had increased from 3 to 400 to 70,000 persons, and this population would require an increased force.— The settlement of Sierra Leone was also a new place what required a considerable force. Botany Bay also required at this time a great force. In Saint Helena, where no King's troops had ever been before, there was now a force of twelve thousand men: this place had formerly been entirely in the possession of the India Company. There was not one of our Allies who did not express a wish to take Bonaparte and keep him at their own expense ; but it would be a violation - of our duty if we had acceded to such a proposition. Austria and Russia would have kept him ; he did not know in what way ; but it Was thought proper, as he had delivered himself np to the English, he should remain in their custody.— There were altogether twenty-three additional colo nies which we did not possess in 1791, and which now required our protection, and called for additional numbers of troops. In. North America, particularly, a very large increase of force was required. Previous to 1791, Upper Canada was a mere waste, with ; scarcely a single inhabitant; since then, the country was peopled. and cultivated ; they carried on their improvements towards the borders of the United States; the communications were open between both , nations; and, was it not necessary to establish mea. I sures of defence against future danger ? Tor the whole of our N•irth American possessions no greater tome than 9000 men was proposed to be kept up.— His Lordship next defended the force intended to be kept up in the NI lest India Islands, on the ground of economy. He then adverted to the Cape of Good Wise and Ceylon. In the latter settlement thire were two military stations, one at tolumbo, and the other at Trincomalee, between which there was no communication except by sea. It was necessary then to keep up 3000 men in the island ; but as soon as a land communication could be completed, the number would be reduced to 2000. At the Cape, the number of men Was 3000, because it was neces sary to keep detachments in the interior of the country, to prevent irruptions on the part of the Caffrtes. Beside*, in case of a war in India, it might be necessary to send assistance from the Cape. He next adverted to Malta, which was a place of the utmost importance in a commercial and military point of view, and when it was considered what ex tensive works there were, the number of 4000 men could not be considered as too much. In the lonian Isles there were important works 'in some of them, by which, they could be defended, and it wopld be necessary to have troops to man these works. The important fortress of Corfu alone required 1800 men —and 8000 men were surely little enough for the whole. If Government should conceive that a less force was necessary, a reduction should take place. and he had no doubt but that in after time the inha bitants, would pay the expense of the military force. In every point 41 view, he contended, we were gainers by the extension of our colonies ; we were gainers so far aeregarded our commerce, our Mau twitters, and our natiowl strength. The whole additional expense we wee put to by increased pos. seisiOns was seBoo,ooo aYear ; and the advantage we gained was an increasd commerce to the value of one million and a half. His Lordship concluded with opposing the motion. Marquis WELLESLE' conceived that the ques tion of any foreign youessim was not one of value but of danger. He had himelf long since, in the year 1805, given it as his opinbn, that the protection of India would require 18,000 nen, and that 2000 world be necessary for Ceylon. At that time France was in the possession of great pdmr ; and even threatened our Indian possessions ; aed therefore he should act in the most inconsistent mauler if he were now to say, that in a time of peace it was necessary to 'keep up 20,000 in India. He wished the House to consider not only die exclusion of all European power and influence, but that all the native Powers which had been at that time formidable to us, were since entirely humbled or destroyed. Could any one then conceive, that it ten years ago, in a period cf great danger, 18,000 men were sufficient for the defence of India, 10,000 could now be necessary ? He was confident that at this moment 1.5,600 men would be sufficient for the defence of India, including Ceylon and the Mauritius. The number of 2000 men intended for the Mauritius was greater than ever was wanted in any French settlement in India. Indeed the whole number intended for our Indian possessions was much greater than was ever necessary during war, and why should the number be kept up during peace ? With respect to our territories in the West Indies, the idea of naval attack was quite ridiculous, for no maritime 'power existed to cause such an apprehension. He held the same opinion as to the danger from the con tiguity of St. Domingo to Jamaica; there were nu such apprehensions in 1802, when Bonaparte sent out an immense armament to that island. He was equally successful in combating the arguments for great esta blishments in the Mediterranean and lonian Islands. The sense sort of defence was, he observed, in each I set up. If the place be strong or weak, old or new, populous or d.solate, the case was m't by converging. ' arguments, and whatever way the wind blew came into the same port.—(Lsud laughter.)— En looking at the state of Canada, lie expressed his satisfaction that our impolitic demands had passed away witle.,ut in jurious consequences, and observed, that the best se curity for the solidity of our American Government, would be found in securing the affections of the pet). pie. The Noble Marquis, in reviewing the items of the peace establishment, each of which ought. in his opinion, to be revised, said that in a short time the Government had fled from one extreme to another. It had been his lot to have grappled with them for starving the Peninsular war, and they now were run ning riot in military profusion, they were determined to thew, if they at one moment starved the war, there was no fear of their starving the peace. He would tell them, that this system could not last—that economy was the arm of peace, and parsimony its panoply ; but the Minister who, in time of peace, called tor a large military establishment, betrayed his ignorance of the Constitution, and of the ttue means of national defence. The Noble Marquis then went into an able, constitutional argument, to thew that jealousy of a standing army in time of peace was a primary source and an elementary principle of the Constitution. Blackstone said, the law knew no such thing as a perpetual soldier. He then eloquently described, chat Eugiand, from per geographical situation, was bound to adopt an insular policy—the true source ofj her greatness, and of her Continental influence. ' In time of peace she should spare her people, to recruit her energies. Under no circumst'aces short of actual existence, ought she to submit to a system of taxa- I tion. which went to subvert the productive power of capital. The last war, it is true, was a monster that made the meat it fed on ; but the artificial conse quences of it were now felt by the prevailing distresses of the country. He then r ointed out the impolicy and impracticability of the Aherne for preventing smug. gling by a militiviy cordon of.cavalry, and strongly re. commended a better enforcement of the revenue laws by the civil power. If the new mode were adopted, a Knight of the Bath !night be seen seizing silk hand kerchiefs and ribbons, and metamorphosed into a reve nue officer ; and the Noble Earl opposite ( Liverpool) might perhaps perform an exploit on thehughts of Wal mer. 'l'lle Noble Marquis, in referring to the force for Ireland, notwithstanding the opinions of the Noble Earl opposite (Limerick), and the Right Honour. able Secretary elsewhere ( Mr. Peel), declared he would refuse his assent to its adoption, unless it were accompanied by a soothing and healing system to wards his of country.—(l-/ear, !tear).--A belief that die tortured mind of Ireland was to be healed by the oblivious antidote of the hayonet, could only be ascribed to a mind perverted by obstinacy and misrepresentation.--(Hear, !ear )._ They had, indeed, been told that the evil was of old standing—that it was of wide and complicated growth; and beCanse the enormity of its difficulties almost appalled inquiry, that inquiry was never to take place; therefore making the tremendous ex tent of the oppression an argument for its perpetuity. Lord Chatham, when describing the mission of the American Commissioners, in his dying language in that House, eloquently proclaimed that we sent men to treat with a sword in one hand, and a law still sharper than the sword in the other. So in Ireland, the fatal practice bas been to follow up the sword with the still keener edge of the law, until it pro. duced a more terrible inflammation. The Noble Marquis then proceeded to ridicule the argument, that we had confederated to put down a military system in Europe, when, in fact, we were only establishing one ; and, to make the folly more complete, raising ourselves into a military attitude to keep pace with the station of those powers among whom we had par. celled out Europe. This was a strange way of teach ing a moral lesson to the world, in whose eyes we must appear as the pillar of that system, against which we had affected to direct the whole battery of our hostility. (Loud cheers.) The Noble Marquis concluded by expressing his hearty concurrence in the Address. . Lord SIDMOUTH defended the Peace establish. ment, and set forth the great importance of keeping up a considerable military force. - f r om fo rmer peace establishments having been too low, the country bad had great difficulties to contend with, and p great ex pense of money, and an incalculable waste of life had been the consequence.. Had our army been on a more respectable footing at the commencement of the, ! lee .116 war. he thought it might have been hron to s tisfartory conclusion as a much earlier prtiut Ai the Peace . f Amiens Parliament liacl agri e ,l h er Peace establishment of fifty tholsai l d 5.., ninety-five thousand troops. That ue a r c v,.,5 '.l censured in some qu ,rters, but it ~vas 1:r v „ • against it, that the maintenance of such was proposed at that time to Iccep up, w ou ld inch , ger our Constitution. Inc put it to the NaM e opposite it it would have been pract;c-ble country to have .clone with:ller ileare lishment than that now proposed, :lad the, alegwi4. twins commenced in 180(i with I.l,rtaparte, nt, basis of. soli ftoniddie terminated in perce ?r/h 2 He then went over the establisime:as i 3 ; ad ' ) West Indies, and in North America, a:4 prov e d th e force proposed to be kept up on each station ,„, vibe necessary. He :hewed that horn the Corp — anion Army to be kept up at home, no danger, i n 4 constitutional point of view, could b e appr eheno,d. He went at some length into the present state of I re , land, to prove the necessity of keeping up am a ra47 , i 25,000 men in that country. He set forth the g " benefits which Ireland had.derive‘i fro:n the m ea ,„ t of the English Parliament, to refut e the declare,: that no beneficial Legislation for the sister ki egd ,,' could be fouled in the annals of our Parliar, proceedings. Finally, he decl.red that h e 4 1 ,4 most consci.mtiously Irr , !e against the ati.frea, !ma the conviction, that if adopter!, its efFects sc u m be injurious to the WC tt I A:. rest; of the c(aitAti. GaENVII.I.I. 7 . said it. was n..w a that the establishoteot which Ministers prov a ,4 4l keep up, was imen,fayid to be the permaiant sm og England ; riot withstailding the appeal made Ay th e last. speak , 4 to the caperieoLe of the country, h e ~,,1 44 assert that experience to be decidedly iu favua rt i the greatest possible reduction of our military eraw s k. ment. It was by reverting to our old system in li ae of peace, that we should best literate the means o f successful exet Lion, wfienever the cntavry mig4 en. gage in a new contest. The habits Id the citiz en i n peace, best prepared oho British soldier to defend hi s country in war; and he could see in the history of th e last war, nothing that led him to regret that out at tar had not been more numerous r.t its commencement. An augmentation of our naval ((Ace woukhaveb ees more grateful and more beneficial to the country,the. that increase in our Milit try Estayisbmc i a s , * eh Ministers had taken upon themselves to propose—. Every possible saving ought to he made that coaklia any way be effected, and a reduction in our expenl. sole of 6 or 0800,000 ought nut to be spok..-; O f lightly ; a diminution even of five or X6OO at this roo. ment of agonizing pressure should not be despia The enormous Establishment of 150,009 . inen pry posed, could nut be necessary unle-s it was iateic.el to suhject this country to a military government-L. When first heard such a force was to be m be was convinced it could not really be wattled ; at.d still more was he sati,fied of this, on perusing the dc• tails before the House, which had the appearance of having been drama up by a Qaarter.Master, whose ingenuity had been tasked to fired statioas what 150,000 soldiers might be disposed of. The Earl of LIVEttPOOL defended the peace establishment at considerable length. Referring w former periods, he she wed that it had always beta augmented with the increase in the population, an! conseqrently in the occupied territory of ow' colteres. He maintained that the force in India was not to, considerable. Tim chief danger winch might thteates that country woold proceed from the interior, acd if there were not a strong force on the spot, the distance from England wouldrencler ail assistance front home unavailing. Hz: then dernenstratcd ti._ importanie f of keeping such garrist;ns in o ur col. - Atie , , especi.lly j in the Mediterranean, as would secure them agaisst, I a surprise. _ The Duke of NEWCASTLE objected to the Establishment, as enormous, unconstitutional, and beyond the means of the country to b.,.ar. The Marquis WELLESLEY explained. The Duke cf BE DFO fps: to correct, *said, a mistdke of the Nohle Secretary of State; he meant with respect to the distribution and applicatrin ot the f)rces in lrcland in 1807. He had stated it was c)1,:1y applied to civil purposes, and the Lke. Were the army in that country at the time suffered to in such a state, he should deem it a breach of dmt in himself, and one - deserving of impeachment. He could confidently appeal to the Noble Earl. who, la much to his own honour, and the ~ d vantae cf In land, then commanded its army, it it were not mg complete state'of preparation, and ready for all thiae duties whiz!' circumstances miLht call upon It to perform. The Marquis of LAMDOWN spite in reply; and Viscount SIDMOU 1 . 11, to explain certain p..inu in his speech, on which the Marquis had animal• vetted. The Marquis of LAxsnowN shortly. The House then divided. when these ppearl: Contents 27 Proxies 42 - - 64 No: Contents 65 Proxies 74 - - IV Majority in favour ut Ministers - ---: 3 Adjourned at Five o'Clock t Morning. HOUSE OF COMMONS. This day, there being a Call of the House s which, hove:err. was not enforierl, the Galli ry Iva< tint open till after flee u'rl , !c'e. The Pillory Abolition Bill was read a third time and l a•v. The Shop lifting Bill, after a few ehservadonts foot: • HURL ROM I.LT, the Al TORN LT GF.N ERA L i and NC'. Aln.'o" 3 C. SMITH. was read &third time, and p t•sr d. Sir GEORGE WARRENUEIt brought tql cf ':"- In Council, that had been .4-den-if, respecting .:.:.lanes. La..; the Table, anti ordered to be printed. Mr. LUSHI NCI ON brought up Copies of Precesos Wad by the Court of Exchequer. Laid on the 'Fable. Mr. LOCKHART brought up a Bill to prevent the Con;:iti sinner under the Insolvivet Act (reins receiving any inure Pe* ,inns, which was read a first time, and ordered to be . re..! a se cond time on the M of Ap.il. Sir M W. RIDLEY moved (or "An Account of the ii%•1.4 enjoyed by the Govet not and Treasurer of Greenwich for 1815 and 1816, and an account of the Pensions aid enjoyed by ti came." Ordered. J''' • • 'l'he Irish Fe:Loamy Bill, after some observation' front cit Newport, Mr. L. Foster, and Mr. Reel, was read a second ona, and ordered to be committed by the whole House on Vi r sjelve' day next. On' the motion of Mr. BROUGHAM, some Papas relative to the Scotch Exchequer, w-re ordered to be printed. A Copy of a Minute of Council of the Sd of August ic 26th George 11. respecting the Penrions to the Widows of Na Officers, was moved for by a Member. Mr. GROKER mentioned his jntendon to lay accounts bersee the House upon the subject of the Pensioni mentioned by As Hon. Member. He could nor. receive any information from tilt Minute for which he had ntoved. The order was wit/161 . 2*c.. The Irish Election Bill was read-1 second time, and (gritted t/ be committed on Monday next. Mr. DROUS}HANI brought up Petit/one (rem be. *ragas n hroTtht to • ha prtiut Af. ft p lead Rgrced t., 4 t d 5.., 'II tre LVAti I:rVc t t.r • F suds a kree e s it 10 up, would endis, o the NoM e lasrds C nact;c-bli: tin tiro :11er Peace estab• had thn negucia, t 13,naparte, tL e Tr D per c e ?- (M i ar :;:t.3 13 a:,,1 proved th e ' each ttAtion was from the Corpp, zb e, no da nger, in 4 d be appreheti&d. resent state of he a sing up an army 41 • set forth the greit fram the measure' ate the Jeclar4,o, the sister Itingdoet our ParliAmetitir ed that h e siv jut t the ad.trel, /ma • . its eiF:cts 'said t tc c(l,;:tiy. 1V.15 11-W arr,rnit tl& t rs prop s o t % arn.4l.t Ilt S)Ete 4 • a ppval mask by 16 e couch'', he *Aid „ e tily iu favunr tithe t erabihk. old system io time !pare the means of cn„wry !slie st en. i ts of the citueu jn .r Allier to defend his e ill the Listory of the 'g:et that out attar Its tom mencrukiit. cc 'rook have!** a, the con:Jo/ilk% 041 , 1 , broclits, rives to propose.. wade that 04144 ion in our expeol. t to be s P Pkt• '' sf ftr £6OO at this rni , . d not be deyii 150,009. men iv). • l e .. s it wits iateui,ed ; el Lary goverurnentz- ti as to be re tiat2i4 ly be Wanted ; :1;4 on perusing the d't._