Star. — London, England, 1816-03-19 00:00:00

• the Tax was first pris'Orid. and he heard Mr. tilt declare that it shriuhl lb a War Tax only, and should positively cease on thei, restoration of peaca— hear).—He was particularly sorry that a Right Ho nourable Gentleman, ,whose character was in every point of view so honrurable as the Chancellor of the Exchequer's was„ should have for a moment denied that any pledge was given.for the abolition of the tax. • (Hear, hear )— Not only the Members of this House, but every man who knew any thing of the history of the Tax. knew that pledges a the most solemn na ture had been given for its abdition—pledges which could not be violated without a gross insult to t:.e British character—( Cheers from the Oftporition).— When this Tax was first proposed by the respectable - Meeting he had alluded to, he would Ask the Chan cellor of the Exchequer—he would ask the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) what tvure the views enter tained by the Merchants, Bankei s, and Traders ? Did they ever for one moment suppose, that this Tax was to be continued at the captive of any Minister when there was no occasion for it, and that the houses of individuals were to be entered, their books examined. and their secrets divulged in a manner which no Briton could bear, and which -no Briton ought to bear—(cherrr)? Such an idea had never entered their minds. They never refused their money to Government when necessity called for it, but they wished to see that necessity properly made out— (Hear.) The Petition he had now the honour to present was signed by 22.000 of that number, and if the House were to examine the list of names, they would find many among them who had rallied round Government in the most difficult crisis, and had joined , heart and hand in its support—(Near.) We were told by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he must have money, as he had great need for it —(a hregh.)- 1-1 e (Sir W. Curtis) would ask where was that neces sity now, that the country had returned to the bles sings of peace ? In the proposal made for its renewal last year he had concurred, because he was then con. winced, from the situatirn in which the country was placed, that Ministers required it. It was no, tessary for the subjugation of that restless enemy with whom we had been compelled to go again to war. But now when that enemy no longer was an object of dread, now, when the country was labouring un der almost incredible distresses, were these distresses not to he alleviiited, but wa. this intolerable burden still to remain ?,‘ Go to the different parts of the coun try (said Sir IV.) examine the thousand varied hard - ships which numbers are bearing, and let any roan judge whether the Minister-can be justified, who, re - gardless of these distresses, dares to add to their num. ber. z. Even in London, where men have better th means of getting some relief, let the numerous lists of bankruptcies, and the numbers out of employment, bear witness to the melancholy state of the country. The citizens of London - 100 have signed this petition will pay when payment is indispensible, but they detest the idea of unnecessary oppression." (Cheery. )—There bad been something going for ward lately, as an attempt to see what could be done by a Counter-Petition ; but he heard it had been signed by about seventeen _persons, when the framers being ashamed of it, took it away in their pockets, and nothing more had been beard of it—(l/car, hear, hear.) The Honourable Baronet v en moved for leave to present the Petition. On its being brought up, Sir JAMBS SHAW bore testimony to the extra ordinary respectability of the Meeting, who were so unanimous in their opinion, that only one solitary dissentient voice was heard against the question. He would ask the Noble Lord and the Right Honouraa ble Gentleman, on his own part and that of some of their best friends, whether they still intended to ad b 're to a measure which almost every individual in the country condemned ? And why was all this Pertinacity ? Could they shew any good cause for it ? He must confess he had not heard a single argument that appeared to be plausible. Was the want of six millions a reason fur imposing a tax so abhorrent to ' the genius and feeling of all the people of England ? (Hear, hale.) He was satisfied that the tax was one which the people could not pay, which they ought not to pay, .and which, if carried this year, must be relinquished the next. On whit ground was it that this measure, was originally proposed in 1798 ? The funds had fallen so low, from 50 to 47, that it was impoisible to raise a loan ; but now a loan could be procured under 5 per cent. Various modes had been suggested to prevent the continuance of this oppres sive tax,, but none of them suited the inclinations of his Majesty's Ministers. It had been suggested not to lay the weight of a farthing on the people this year, but Ministers disliked this advice. A mode bad been recommended by an Honourable Gentle. man opposite, that of applying to the Sinking Fund, but they did not like this. They lad been advised to pay the interest of a ioaa at the end of two years, as was done in America, and found to answer extremely well, but this was objected to. He c uld not there fore but feel sorry that Ministers, who had shewn so much good sense on other occasions, should now be its blind to their own interest as to persevere in a mea sure so generally obnoxious.— (Hear, Hear.) Mr. MARTIN thought, that if Ministers had borne in mind the very little chance they had of car.; rying the measure, they would have given it up. But understanding that they meant to persevere, and ex pected to succeed by may a very small majority, he must test ;.eni tnat they would do more to alienate she affections of the country by it than by the adop tion of any other measure whatever. Alderman ATKINS observed, that the House bud witnessed the very great joy exhibited by Minis ters that evening, on the contents of a petition that might be-considered in favour of the Tax, signed by only forty persons. •He hoped that proportionate credit would be given to this, which bore the signa tures of no less than tweisty-two thousand of the most disinterested and enlightened men in the country, amongst whom were those who had always supported Government. He had publicly expressed his opinion, before be had the honour of a seat. in that House, w h en the Tax was raised from 5 per cent. but even it be were now in favour of the Tax, when he saw what were the feelings of the whole country upon it, be should be ashamed to offer his own opinion against them. He had only said these few words because it bad not been in his power to attend the meeting. • Mr. BARING Said, es the Meeting had been. a n fully attended, it was hardly necessary for him to say a few words in favour of the Petition. Ir bad the Whim% not only of the eetporitlon of the City of Lotion, but of all the other enlightened persons: He never saw stich_ a number of persons of the ut ' most respectability collected together. Hehelieved there never was such a meetitwon any occasion*ltat ever. If the.fatmers had been distressed, the mer chants had been (guilty so. But the whole argument turned en the degrading situation in which people were placed once a-year, by being subject to the in quisitorial examinations. When the Tax came regu. larly before the House in a Committee, then would be the time to explain the nature of that feeling of disgust which had been excited in en - Ty part of the country, a feeling Of which those who were con nected only with landed property' could form no con ception, and there was no doubt that they would give their concurrence to get rid of it. Those Gen tlemen who were the promoters of the Tax when it was first laid on, wire the very same persons who now petitioned against it. It was a Tax of that exe crable nature, that nothing but the most urgent ne cessity could tolerate its existence ; and though the Noble Lord and his colleagues were sl ready to cheer the language of a petition which contained the sig natures of 36 persons, they would find, if they car ried the measure by a small majority, that it would require seething more than the influence of such personspoe even of the Court, to keep.them in their si t u doss; —(hear, hear). Mr. I'ONSONBY congratulated the . House on true light in which the subject had been placed. It was the abominable principle of the Tax, the detes table inquisitorial power that it gave, which induced the 9.2,000 persons of London to sign the petition for its condemuation. He did beseech the Chancellor of the Exchequer to remember what the House had been told, on a former occasion, that Petitions were 010 be estimated only by their merits, and not by the" gold chains and tuned gowns of those who brought them to the bar. But this Session we had the whole weight and judgment of the commercial population i lof London in a Petition. Arid the Right kituriur ' able Ger,tlernan would do well to consider, whether the boon he pretended to offer them were really a boon or not ; for he would find ne.itly the whole mass of the funded interest in the kingdom rejecting it.— The Noble Lord had talked of clamouring down his proposition for continuing this Tax; but did he think thoae 22,000 persons could be accused of such a dm ! position ? They had heard, day after day, what had been said in thia House, and read what had been printed, for and against the Tax, and now came their Petition. He would therefore leave it to the Noble Lord to say, whether this was the petition of ignorant and impatient persons, clamouring down a measure, or the sober sentiments of the IZIOSt ea• lightened people of the country. Mr. ALEXANDER said, he felt that the Tax was a great inconvenience; be felt it so in his own private affairs; but be also felt that it was a benefit to his constituents. All the monied men he had con versed with had agreed that it was the wisest and best measure that could be adopted, and therefore he should conscientiously give it his vote. It would make people pay in one way, who would not have paid in any way—(Lard laughter, sad crier of Rear, irar). Colonel ELLISON said it was his pride to have voted with that great man, Mr. Pitt. It was a wise measure, that enabled the country to meet the expen ditures within the year; it was a War Tax, and as such might properly be continued to wind up the ex penses of the war. He should not be carriel away by clamour; but he thought the Petition on the table the most important one that had yet been received. Mr. W. SWIM should not enter at any length on the subject of this Petition ; but he found it neces sary to say a few words. The Honourable Members for the City of London had correctly stated it to be signed, nut only by a large majority ot their consti. tuents, but by many thousands of others who could not be supposed to be well acquainted with the subject. But as an Honourable Gentleman who sat behind him (Mr. Alexander) had 'spoken with great confidence of the opinion ot the monied interest in his Borough, it would be worthy ot the consideration of the House, whose opinions were best founded. If the opinions ot the monied interest were not to be col- lected from the City of London, where were they to be obtained from ? He would certainly sooner trust to their united opinion than to any private represeo- Latium Tile Honourable Gentleman had spoken, it , his ears had not deceived him, of the opinions ot his constituents— (Hear, hear) —No doubt these opinions must have great weight with the House : they were the opinions of the constituents who were to be found within the walls of that very respectable Borough in Wilts, Old Sarum l—(Lord harm if laughter and cries of lieor, herr). The honourable Gentleman had greatly exaggerated his constituents, for, if he might use such a phrase, he believed they might all be corn prized in one. What monied interest there might be amongst them, he could not pretend to say—(earsh lauester)—or whether the surprize and astonishment with which the Petition signed by 22,000 had im pressed the Honourable Gentleman, bad rendered him disinclined ,to go into the question. But he hoped, it' this were the case, that when he had to: coeered from his astonishment, he would not be din. posed to vote the wrong way. Mr. ALEXANDER explained. He had expressed not only his own opinion, as a man engaged in trade, but that. of many persons with whom he had dealings, and who had money in his hands. The Petition was then ordered to lie on the table. RECORDER'S REPORT. Mr. BENNETT, seeing the Noble Secretary of State in his place, wished to know why his Royal Highness the Prince Regent had not - received the Recorder's Report, as there had been for some time past so less than fifty-eight persons under sentence of death t Lord CASTLEREAGH said it was not an easy thing to assemble a Council at a distance from Court. The cause of the delay was solely owing to theist• disposition of the Prince Regent, which kept his Royal Highness (rom town. Lord MILTON declared, that he heath with aster nishment and indiation what had fallen from the lips of the Noble Lord. What-sort of indisposition was it that prevented an act which was the most so. lemn of any that came under the kingly office ? Was ' it mere indisposition, as it is commonly called—and if so, was this a reason why the Royal pleasu re s h ou ld not be taken on the lives of those who had unfortu. 'lately beta capitally ousoiciod, but that they should be telt for *eels anti mnntlii in tile tisosi direful sit pence, bectuse tie Roi.tl l'erionAge happened to be what the Noble Lord cAlled in,hbvued 4 Brighton were 500 miles from town iortiud .0 50, he would say it was the duty of the Ministers of the Crown to 'recommend the holding of the Ciuncil, tor such an enormity ()VA not to be suffered. He was aware that he hail spoken with mnre tinn usual warmth ; but the interest of the subject must be his escute. He should move for an 7cci•uot of the number of persons under sentence of death, with the dates when they were respectively sentenced. The ATTO RNEY-GE NE It At. could conceive that the feelings of Members who might,have visited Netrgate and tound ss hat a 'lumber et petsoAs were under sentence of death might have ben strongly excited. No doubt their situation was one of great anxiety and suspence; but it the Honourable Gentle men had inquired, they would have fote - id that this delay was by no meats a new occurreuce. But v'hat practical inconvenience could result .from this delay? —(Hear, hear, hear ).=lie v..ould repeat 11;i question —for he could got conceive - tny. The ticc;sioris en their cases were necessarily p..s:poteA iroti. the indis position of the Royal I'vr.on. .net from the necessary attendance of those persons whose expeii.nce and hu mane consideration alway, had proper weight. The Recorder's Report comprise -I a great number of in dividuals, with respect to whom it was always the kingly pleasure that the sentence of death should be remitted, and there were hew who were convicted with whom the law was . stitered to take its course. n He would admit that the uo!ber was large, but f e w would have much reason to complain of the delay athich, he rebated, had been unavoid tble ; ;+nd though there was no sittneion in life v.i.ic% called for more anxious consideration th.i'i that of the persons in question, he saw no grod this could e - arlt from the motion, for which he theu,_;ht there was no sub stantial ground. Mr. W. WYNNE expressed astonishment at hear ing from the Attorney-Cenral that ho inconvenience could result from keeping fifty-eight persons now under sentence of death in a btate of uncertainty.— 'Did he really think there was no ground of cont plaint, when those convicted at the lest December Sessions were still ignorant what was to be their fate? He was surprised that such a circutustance should have oecurred. Within the last ten days, there had been Council upon Council held at Brighton ; and it appeared strange to him, while this was kilown to be the fact, that a subject of a nature so serious as that which had just been referred to should not have been takes into consideration on account of the Prince Re gent's indispositi.nr—(!tear, hear.) It w.:s said that it would be iuconvenient for the Law Officers to leave Town to wait upon the Prince Regent at Brigh ton. He admitted this might lea so; but he thought it an inconvenience which ought to be submitted to, in order to avoid which, w.:1) productive of incalcu lable mischief. The Recorder and the Lord Chao celior were the only legal characters whose presence was absolutely necessary, when the report of convicts under sentence of death was taken into consideration. He could not, therefore, bee that the diiliculiy in the way of such report being made was insurmountable. Now as to the concern which the public had with the delay which had occurred on the vret.ent oc c a s ion, what was it, he would ask, the infliction of capital punishment, but the t trect which it wis pre. sunned might be expected to pr'duccd by the ex ample thus affisrded ? To maktt this was necessary that the connexion hctwem tie clime and the dreadful punishment which w.ti its reward should be most distinctly :narked. 1: two or three m,nths were suffered to intervene between the sen tence and the execution, the et iate Mir., no longer ntembered by the multitude: they only hearA that so many men were to be hanged, and the death of the unfortunate offenders furnished a sheer for the idle, and that was all. The delay of he epin plained, it would thus be seen, was ions to the public at large, and it was unnecessary for him to describe to the House the feelings of the persons un• der sentence, who were kept for su considerable a period in a state of miserable suspense. The ATTORNEYGENERAL, in explanation, said, he had nut asserted there was no inconvenience to be complained of, as his Honourable and Learned Friend (Mr. Wynne) had supposed; he had, on the contrary, said there was a great inconvenience, which it was desirable to surmount, if this were pos sible. For those under sentence of death, whose sen tences were not to be carried into effect, the delay only postponed for a time the consideration of their cases, for the purpose of commuting the punishment. • The Motion was then agreed to. INCOME TAX. The House baying resolved itself into a Commit tee of Ways and Means, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose to submit his proposition for the continuance of the • Property Tax. When the very important and serious nature of the subject was considered, he ex. pressed his hope that the Committee would apply it self to the question with that calmness and iinp.utia lity which its importance demanded. lie was now to submit for the serious and deliberate consideration of Parliament his proposition for the continuance of the Property Tax; and as the House had already sanctioned the Estimates for a considerable naval and military establishment, it was an obvious consequence that the necessary means must be allowed for the support of those establishments. It was said that the general sense of the country was strongly adverse to the continuance of this Tax; but that prejudice, lie was persuaded, would be removed when the subject came to be better considered. He had boos of the • vast number of petitions which had come up against the measure : still be thought it his duty to submit the question for the calm and deliberate con. sideration of Parliament, and_ by. its jutisment he would abide. The petitions contained only the sea timents of a very small proportion of the people, ;(11rar, hear.) It could not be contend:a that the signatures to those petitions contained a very great proportion of the whole population of the country..— ' (Hear, hear.) But even if a much greater nutulser had petitioned against the measure, he should still 'consider it his duty to submit it to the consideration of the House, and' to give Parliament an opportunity of judging of its propriety, by laying before them the grounds, upon which he thought it fitting to snake the proposition. The petitioners had only attended to the pressure upon themselves, which they were /mh. rally anxious to remove, because they. thought it no . . . neeestait ; but he wai would not hove been their judgro : la opportunity of being fully ; whole matter, and of deliberl l partially upon the subject. H i vinced that the petitioners had subject, and had never coolly an, dered it, when he observed that petitions contained the unfound( Government and Parliament stoo, Tax should cease with tne w whit' liAd been last resented ( signed, I i admitted, by a gt4:-.11 44 the highest respectability, the strougly put .fortvarJ ; -but it agreed to upon the };round; and th - e Worthy B.vonet (S is Willed i certainly wider it es any calm mid deliberate juJgitkent chants, and trader, of thc city of tby ILtrourt sal,' that the 'nog of ing of merchants, Ba::kers, an, am.; that it Wit thereupon adopts , ' distinct pledge that it should not the conchision of 4 general peace. gument of the worthy Baronet ; 4 rested on that, they would present matter really 'oboe. In the year 17;f8; le c,:ik.,`w r' t, of the alarming st a te of pu bli c CreJlt, 4 i nept H, l " Add in the city of Loud n, mid thereaBier4 was subscribed by several very respecialiti4;7l:,suis by way of wit. contribution. M. Phei,,, 46 1 ' 44. previously determined to 'three in some in e , wit t. ' n ' pressure on the funds by t h e Aid and enntebe-: fax, which was celled als o b y the name at e T.O""e A vieliMellt Tsz. TN% lie atteruen s cd • la n nu gel ti 4 the far less burthensome and less tejcctineate e ext we, the Income Tax ; but, inured of • • Rivilig oti pledge that the 'I as should cease with th e - distinctly stated. that it should be centir one year 01 pewee for every year ot veit s if the war e•ottiittied doer years. th en 1 to remain ler three yeas. of peac e . o f only did nut propose that it eheuld et ' war, bin a propm thin of the intrrext tund ot loans was charged upon it foie produce in one year. S.l;2pose the le s;eking fund four milliofs and a j u te , sum borrowed twenty miltions, Elie interest ing fund proportioned to fit teea miiiioe. charged on the income tax. The cooleg t this system, which completely ceutradicter ment of the worthy Baronet. was, that Tax w.ts pledged to the public creditor di years of peace—so that it was peiLctiy when the Income fax originated, it teas . templation that it must cease with the war. .e t, peace of Amiens, hieeever, the T4l was set see by Lord Sidman!) ; but that was done by impcel - ' (a large MASS ul p-:rinanetit taxes, ainountieg Len iess than five giillions a ye:tr. On therettraal OM war, Lord S.dniotaft pioi,i),c,l the Property TA ehieli was adapted, !pit no pledge whatever es given that it sli , iuld imnictliately cease with the aa. In chit; situation the matter stood when a coateel able addition was made to the ernouta of the 'reek Lord Henry Petty, then Chancellor of the Eallie quer. From the necessity of the occasion, the Tat !f was at that time raised from 6 4 . 4 to 10 per cent. la d the fin .racial plan was submitted to Pdfrii.M.lr, ; which he had o ccas io n to Stier to oil slate subjeelms Wh:tt. he had then seid had been much mule, hend:.d, and t.,:i.s: Tient!) , misrepreserged. What had stated was, that the plan in (Fitment wassoc, el structed as to Ruder it n ecessar y, in cet taia MO* that the Tax should net cease with the war. n't had been commented on id another place, es if iv had represented that the Noble Lord then at dieleab iot the Treasury, and the Chancellor of the Exch.' I quer, eel expressed a wish teat ttie Tax setae! te, continued during peace. He had never said t He halt oniy said that they had cone...l.:red it me yis a Tiestion of expediency, and not a question o, sad Lid' ; and had never cunceived that t'ailialueiltcs pledged to put an end tit the Tax with the war: la the matinee in which he had alluded to that plan, Le had expressed hinhelt wish all those feelings of it. spect .and regent which he ever ought to cinema towards them ; but he must not lose the benefit of their high authority to shew that no distinct piece was given that the lax should cease with these. In the developemeni ot that plan it was expressie stated, that it might be expected to cease enema very short time atter the co nclusiea of peace. This was not the language of one who meant to convey 1 pledge that the Tax shenld at all events cease oath the war. II .such had b.ea the meaning of tii , ':e noble persons, would they not have distinctly stieef that the property was not to be ptedged at all w the public creditor ? But they spoke of it as a shot question of discretion. In the sei ice of papers then laid on the table, marked [2], it tiuuld appear that it was contemplated that the 1 . .11 night be piel,ei for large sums. He was aisle to go eialewhat torten, and shew from a re p orte d sperctt litA fi e b y taeElea Chancellor of the lexchequ.e. in reele w erne obel• stations offered by the ROIL Eloa. the Treasurer et the Navy, - that the plan of finance thee ptopuseii Cl. pressly contemplated, the possibility of the 'fax exist. ing in peace: The Noble Lord (Lord Henry rate) had then said, 4 4 that he made no pledge of his mei opinion respecting the permanency of the taxes if time of peace." Mr. BARING rose to order. JI insisted that it was extremely itregular to lead a paisage et - airport. cd account ot a speech in Parliament—(Order, ceder.) The CHANCELLOR 111 the EXCHEQUEk answered, that a Speech of his own had ficee eui): l J and commented on in anther p:acc.—(Hear, kart fro Me Ministers). gre lfr at . d C ureri AL nc eit e Aj i r wee e n bse g r u v o e i d in , g th:: :i t i there was report, and a speech which had be, n corrected s i :i; published under the eye of the Right Hutwura • I Gentleman. Mr. ROSE observed, that nothing was ;Ivaco:am neon than to refer to a Member's speech delivcr,ri or a former occasion; but it the amour Able man would prefer an oral recollectirm ut wlt.tt pot , "= go that occasion to a written account of it, he loci; _tell it them from his own inemory.--(Mar, Ag a /asr44). The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEOVI continued, and remarked, that the speech iMog in another House been quoted as his, h ul been 11IL lished without his authority. He would, ibovsaa.l I;6i:tided ,thls t w i nielits it they t ,c(l.l.4inied sr; ' ti ng calmly :01,1 .4 re le was the motet. di not understati ansl impartiellv et/ 10 t almost all ts,l ti led a:legation that 00l pledged that tb v.tr. In the petit' (the Lnntl,4l ()ethic, f ,tt nanibtr (4 pc • e s • tne allegation wtp had . arg nts SUN b 4111 Cult's), slyjuir 1 !I:1g rather tha n I 01 the hcatkew,ll of Liodon. 'hep originated io. Id others in Lai", I ted• b)* Mr. Pittoe4 , I c )t e. be . . f c t ; nnJ if the petit'rctenily see Me w ai li 'nu 'h. Kai 4 We 614.4 Me Tait., ease %di ti t and s i n ti : „ tiaz interest es ►lf, az j • es: and 4 ras Islam* 'Led CA a r p, the Int42e during t q . clear, not in . - se v.r. Ant.