Star. — London, England, 1816-02-27 00:00:00

- , -11Pr777 daces! them in a very different manner tostlie House. (Hear, ker.) • Mr. WILBERFORCE, although not unprepard to agree with what had fallen from a Noble Lord (Folkaone), as to the pr-priety of printing the Yeti • tons more fully in their Vexes, could not but remark t:rat he had very recently observed the practice pure sued bi an Him. B tr4wt (Sir I'. Acland) in pre , , senting 26 petitions. pursued a short time since by one of the4flrldeit M. intrel's, Who had many petitions to present, he presenting the whole of them at tlx same time. Mr. lIARING, on moving that the'Dorking Peti tiol lie on the table, observed, that from the way in sv:l;cli Petitions were now received, and them inner ••••' . 7 h M , i %ter, were pressing on every subject, tit it dime \finisters were decidedly against giving time for the rece pt of Pctitions-L ;ear.) Petition ordered to lie o the table. FURTHEK CALL OF THE IMUIE. The CHANCELLOR of the t XCHEQUER bavy.g in•lved clic Order of the Day, for the House to resolve itself inv. a Committee of Supply— Mr. LA NIIITON row and gave notice, that on Friday nex:, w:wp this Conimitt..e would be resum ed, he should move to have the House coiled over again, and that be would do the same on every occa , :ion when pecuniary grants were the subject of con sideratiln. Mr. BROUGHAM, in cousequenee of the proba bility that the debate would be prolonged beyond the present evening, prstponed his u+•itaon which stood for to-morrow, relative to the LiLerty of the Press, till *Vintrstlay se'insight. PEACR ESTABLISH:4INT. The CHANCELLOR . of the EXCHEQUER repeated his motion for the Committee, and that the A• my Estimates be referred to its consideration. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, he had come down resolved to oppote this motion, but if he had not be fore riade up hi; mind, the number of Petitions he had heat d this night would .have fixed his determina tion to decide against the establishment of so enor., (nous army, at a time when nothing but the sighs and groans of distress were to he heard all over the country. Tt was a constitutional part of the duty of every Member to vppose, in times like thee, a vote for an army of JAM* men, as unnecessary and unreasonable, while they knew that the great danger wai the battle= it would give the Crown. There might come a time when the majority of Members of Parliament might feel it their own personal inte rest to keep up a large standing army and navy ; but whenever this might be the case, he would say, that there was no longer. any liberty in the country. It wort therefore not only his intention to oppose the measure in centemplation, but, it he should succeed, he meant to propose an address to the Crown, pray for.the adoption of other measures. It had been said th..t such an army was necessary for our own secu - ity ? What I were not the people of this coun try old for the last twelve years, that the war bad beer: kept up in order to avoid such an establishment %...4.n peace should arrive ? Yet they were now told ; theft is w..s necessary to keep up the establishment to evJid a new war. It was a great breach of faith, then, on the part of Government towards the people to propose such an army, fur which they had no real groa:.ds whatever. It had been asserted, that the army foi the establishment at the time of the Peace of A.iniens was greater than that now proposed but even if this were the fact, it ought to be Remembered, that the Chaticea.ir of the Exchequer at that time, baJ said that it would only be necessary to keep it up for six months, after which it was to be reduced.— We were now at peace under circumetanccs more eminently favourable, than those at the time of the peace of A miens, therefore the situation of our own country must either be such as to create alarm, or the proposed establishment must be unnecessary. It would be a much greater question against Ministers, to prove, that with all the means in their hands whieft the country had so profusely granted them, with all the blood . they had caused to be shed, and all the victories they 1 - 4a,1 gained, they had not been able to procure a peace which requited to be juaintained by less than 150,000 men. He must say, that great 'lad been their victories, but much greater the shame on the councils of the nation that had led to such a reselr. It was aspeace which left upon us the main burdens of war, and was even worse than war, for it consumed those resources which _could only be formed in time of peace to enable us to encounter war, whenever it might become unavoidable. The Noble Lord then adverted to the speech made by his present Majesty soon after he ascended the throne, when, congratulating the Houses on having attained a secure peace, the first wish of his heart, he only recommended to their notice the propriety of keeping up a respectable Navy. Bat now, instead of that policywhich put us in the situation of a great island, *e had dwindled down to the state of a small Couti. nental Power, and were obliged to keep up a large standing army for our protection. To :educe our fend forc e s to the lowest poss Pale amount, even in times when the country had no caose for such com plaints as prevail at present, was always considered sound policy at every fornser period of peace. He would only allude to the peace of Ryswyck, when it was contended that the Bourbons bad designs against the family on the throne, whom they bad formed a project for overthrowing, in order to place the Stuarts in their stead ; earn then Parliament trusted to the loyalty of the country to defend its succession, and proposed the lowest possible establish ',tient of regular force; but now we are to have this lurthen imposed upon us, when there is not the re-' Moult prospect of danger from any designs of Fr ince. It was understood that a portion of this 5u,i)00 men was to be kept in France, for the pur pose of keeping down revolutionary principles. It vla possible then, that the people Of France might begin a sort of tyranny over themselves, and then that portion of the people who were brought up to English notions, would employ British soldiers in the task of quelling their internal riots: but it there Was any possible way to quench the spirit of the English people, it would be by employing them on. such a duty as this in France. It was making them become what chi emissaries of Fouihe were in the mile o f Bonaparte. Another objection was, that these troops, kept in case of the necessitfof employ ing them for 'such a purpose, were to be supported by contributions from France. It would have bein Lir better t 4.11, we slatiolsi Wye ltA a itneign force in, 'V 1 , • . that amity, instead at British troops ...1 &SO it -should have been paid by the Treasury bets. Another part of this army, to the amount of 15,00 men, was intended to be kept in Ireland. This was much larger than there appeared any necessity for. The excuse Was, that. it was to be employed IS pee-, venting smuggling ; but the danger. in his opinion , which we had to fear was, the consequences of Oiling . upon soldiers to interfere with the private alias of the people. He must say, that if the House pro ceeded in this way, we should have to lament that we had ever entered into the war, for we should lose the rights of a free people. He concluded with re penting his intention of moving an Address fur a re duced establishment, provided his opposition to the present Motion should succeed, in • order that the people - might know, that the House was alive to their real interests. Mr. FRANK LAND LEW IS thought the present question of such immense importance. that it wo the duty of every Member to exacise upon it his free and unbiassed judgment. It was of infinitely greater magnitude than any other subject which had come before the House during the three years he had sat in it. He had no doubt that it world be resisted by that great and independent body, the Country Gen tlemen, as being a question exclusively their own,— They had always rallied round the Constitution, and they would not, in th's instance, relax in their duty ; .and he called on them to think for themselves, to look at the means of the country, to look at its danger, and to decide not only what we are to main-' Main as an establishment, but also what power we have to support it. He needed scarcely to remind these Gentlemen how firmly and independently their ancestors did their duty in the reign of King W liam, when they called from that Monarch his Dutch Guards, who had been the companions of his victories. He urged the House only to look twenty years back, when Mr. Pitt attempted to press on Go vernment the necessity of laying out no less than 4400,000 upon fortificat:ons. At that time it was not Mr. Fox who resisted him ; 4 was the country Gentlemen, headed by Mr. Bastard, who opposed him, and Mr. Cornwall, the Speaker of that day, gate his casting vote, which rescued the people from the danger they apprehended. He called on the country Gentlemen to consider this question on. the same grounds. For himself he must say, that the measure seemed formed on a perfectly false view of our means and our dangers. • Our debt WAS im mensely great, compared to its state at any former period of peace. At the end of the American war its interest was only about nine millions, and all that was required to be raised within the year was fifteen millions. At this time the whole property of the country was estimated from one hundred and twenty 'to one hundred and thirty millions. Now the interest was forty millions, and the annual establishment pro posed amounted to 20 millions more. Thus we were to have an annual taxation to the amount of sixty mil lions. Now, if any one would take the trouble to deduct from the Property Tax, the number of per sons whose incomes were acquired by their talents or labour, such as lawyers and others, the real pro perty of the country would be found to amount to not more than ISO or 140 millions--so that we should have to raise in taxes almost one half of the actual property of the nation. Then let it be considered whether we are not in great danger of soon coming to the end of our resources t About two years ago the Right 11-.nourable Gentleman opposite talked of taking a part of the Sinking Fund, to appropriate to the purposes of the State, on the ground that taxation had found its limits. If this were the case then, what must be cur situation when the taxation for a time of peace swallows up all our means, so that, if we were unhappily driven into a new war, we should be unable to support it t He would therefore say, that we must not incur the danger, if we can pos,ibly avoid it, of consuming in peace what we mry want for war. It was manifest that if, under such circumstances, a war were to break out, we could not maintain the struggle for two years.— Consumed resources were the very we rst evil to which we could be reduted, at a time when its dis tresses were of a magnitude that must alarm and astonish all who conic to the knowledge of them. Thus he entreated the House to turn their attention to the danger. We were, as tar as Ministers assu rances went, confirmed in our alliances, and being thus bound cordially together, these was less danger of this union being dissevered from jealousy than there was of any alliance ever made in Europe, of which England formed a part, Where then was the need of this establishment ? As the army of France was destroyed, there was surely no military danger rp be apprehended on her account. If we kept up mea at Cambray it was perfectly needless to keep them is Colchester; in short, if our army was to be kept la France, we did not want it here. The same might be said respecting a large naval establishment ; it is not required. Neither France nor Spain have any navies at all. As to our troops for foreign stations, they appeared large beyond all possible necessity., There was to be eleven thousand men stationed lift Gibraltar, but there was uo reason to divine why a higher number of men were wanted there Maw UM was necessary in 1791, when the establishment writs between tour thousand and five thousand men. In the lonian Islands there were to be 3500. He would call upon the House to consider the nature, terms, and principles of that acquisition, in- order to 'see what grounds there were for any danger arising ids those islands. It could not be from Russia or from Austria, for it was by the concurrence of those two Posters that we' took possession of theta. It was surely not to protect ourselves against the inhabi tants, for they conceived that our coming was from' a disposition to 'deliver them from the thraldom udder which they had previously laboured. He 'must there fore think that twelve or fifteen hundred men woad be a number fully adequate for those possessions,— The same might be said of Batavia and Ceylon, and riven of India itself, where, it we were anxious to find an enemy, we had to seek him on the frontiers of Napaul er Thibet. He therefore thought that all our foreign establishments were too large; and he was sure the House would think that fourteen thou. sand men for the West Indies was out of all propor tion. In 1791 the establishment for these colonies was not more than 2000, and surely they were even more safe now than a t that period, or than than they everwere • while the chain of French colonies remained unbroken. About 4000 Men wbuld,•in his opinion, be amply Mks= foi• them. Another important subject was force td be kipt . o ... p .c fz u d ietio Le ~ , • , • _.- • k e as e f e n h a l :i "n t wa l s wr be w* ai t s i. c a do nd te4ded, was not to be regardel Pet r i t eß wars a titze h r ic r l a ii th ho or beil tha e n tsa vea ; strengthened of C • consider Quebec. There was a force Ana- . the expense which the for the possession of Upper Canada materially Peace Establishment. 14 - ni t " ot arrant,,. .-. dian militia, so excellently disciplined, that full re- lion would throw upon the c 'witty! 47 1 4 Hance might be placed on it, as to its assista nce in ,to be asserted that the erne, case of , cae se d the .. Was ou 4 la m b e e ,cbili4sYnemonftsTe p resent , o ver Id Ove n r et 4 i, kl i e l i f il °"er Peettn i 1 i t t lt h e i s s pe id c e t a in l g va l sp re t l i e ta n t d, d i t t ete et 1 , that itj k into the teal state of that country, , army were disbanded to-morrow: t e e ea, • i degree of local adrift, and the Eivrli•lt r. • e ten Aiers made ---i.e l ift n o n rs peC‘hvitilifyid;sitfyligi inquiry) k j e n e r' e t w disturbance Anna tithes ; but there was no symptom and dustnwa of—(hear, h: r, , . at rear that there is a great I f thousand men, except to that of former times. Was the situ ti7:l4 of rebellion against the Government. . There could deducted from th e total expense 0 1 n ie wh , ezz isi. therefore be nothing to occ.tsion the continual employ- account, would not bring it do wn to 4 . la fi theiry e aid was not grounded on like what it was when Mr. Fna t ) ,.., u ,, h . Lott assist t t l i i . e e re po i l if ier t , w a e h nt a y in t stit talons Con t:e o. t,„ ie the half- a • the allowsn But it was . tinpos- Peace Establishment ; He wishe d 1 I : t i fe ttl cvs, th e sAiibi y ie p t , o lsi s t p iy ak ur en ec t i i t i a i :l si n ib e j c e e c s t ot w y :thout lamenting the th at echalit d e Ittesio unhappy course which had been pursued towards . . fleeted woe th ' -. pet ind, end the tar:Z: 4 Ireland ; and seeing the vast expense that must be which had nothing to do with i ts pre . eilt entailed upon us, he hoped he should impress on the strength, and it would be seen hor n be `li I s t i o nce do ei t ' l t :i. garrisoo dnty, to etietu House the necessity of resorting to a different system that these created a charge of of Government in that country. There was an idea which would have covered the tot.' et • t 4 abroad, that we were about to adopt a different army iii 1791. The pay of th e toi.ii Ne t ttohethues usual lllection establishmentsof t ti e orteven Custom-ue in n d e o c u e b s i s e a i ry House and Excise cutters w. re to be superseded by hurl establishments and dock.yards, and : s l y re st rnd, in an r d eg t a h r a d t an army. He had no idea that it was proper to em- the subject, must exceed that wlech was kr !? • ploy a military force for this purpose, if it could pos. any former day. On the face ef t h. _ •Ni roe 1 Orly be avoided. if an army wereeo be disposed of mates, a variety of items would be e ne „ jy , inithis manner, it must necessarily be scattered in not formerly included ill sieoele docurteito small divisions, which would pervert discipline. .. 7. charges were then paid, he did net ka N t, But if any case could be made at, which should in! they were not thus brought forward, )1 t duce the House to think that so large a portion as under the circumstances he had cleserle e e2a, twenty-five thousand men was necessary for the secu- nal mole could be of opinion, tha t the to rity of Ireland, then be would say, that the good old had former:) , been kept op woaid nn o ' wok system - of this country had been lost sight ot. If a He would de f y the Ck.uttlemen ~gyp-sites, military force were to be kept for any purpose what - present s i tuat i ons , to frame 4 . 1 y thing like. .. t . , ever, in this country, it ought to be the constitu- tory plan ter carryieg Am the 14,1i c kr , c , a , tional militia, which was the best auxiliary we could force l i ke that w h i ch hid bum ntaintaieei .. 1 1 . desire. It would not fail to strike the House. I tliet and if they were to come ov er to the a1ii„,,1%. at the termination of the war, the persons who Nimbi of the House, he was sure tt.tl would at ti t form our militia, would be such as were already. ac- that k was imposohle. Tee hiwry (I! t,, customed to service and discipline, and they would proved our former peace establislante s to . consequently come ready trained, and prove a more insufficient. He thought to th ese it oral effectual force of the kind than we had had at any tome of its wars, (which, however, he , . • former period. This would certainly be a more efli- certainly many of the difficulties with m o th % cient mode than employing a standing army. It had to contend, and many of the reverses ar j . was astonishing that so large a number of men should pointments which had been (leer:erect A i be voted now for the Local Militia. He should have commencement of the war with France, se em thought that it would have been much wiser to have sitively in danger from our peace establiene t curtailed this branch oldie expenditure. having been calculated on a scale suitabk, Mr. C. YORKE thought it would have been more fence of the country. In the year 17%1% orderly to have taken up the debate on the whole war broke , out between this co untry an d . . i Estimates, when they were before the House in the (though, as we were then at war wit:, St e Committee. He complimented the Honourable ' might be considered to !rive been eartlypep Ll Gentleman on the manly and becoming manner in it,) a French Fleet of twenty sail of the ht.,: which he had made his remarks—had no doubt' the Chanel, and cast anchor at Dungesee, without that, by attending with, his usual sincerity that time forty-two thousand men, uaic and candour to the course of the Debate, he would Sere, were ready to be transported to our s:xsa, be induced to alter his opinion. He apprehended we had, from the best information he had lea that there could be no question at this per lad, ohe- to obtain, but eighteen thousand men in rat e ther we ought to have a standing army or not? The pose them. In 1779, when we were ergetedi enormous extent, the enormous surface and wealth of American war, we were in imminent Gauge • the country-(Hear)-rendered it absolutely necessary, howirittes recommenced between this craw l if we meant to preserve the blessings that had been France. A few years ago, when all bel t handed down to us by our ancestors. Such bad been under the cnntr'ui of Bonaparte, who reek the practice of the country ever since the Revolution, foreseen that the Allies of England weld a at which time a standing army was first established, have been in possession of Paris? Free ea and has continued to the present time. He therefore wished it to be considered that we onglalsrat apprehended, that there could be no possible objec- tent with being prepared for that w'Ai it ea , Lion to the practice. Nobody would be more ready ble would occur : it was necessary that ow • • ' than himself to admit, that a legal and constitutional preparations should be commensurate sin tie jealousy ought to be exercised on this subject, as far interests we hid at stake, leaving nothingalet, as related to a standing army being under the con- He was anxious that the force kept up sheiks trout of the Crown; but the amount of the jealousy larger than was really • necess try. That iii• ought not to go beyond the proportion uf the amount was now proposed to maintain Wa not the of the army. Nobody was more anxious than him- Establishment ; it was the force which pecula self that the standing army should be under the Civil cumstances made it necessary to mai:vain ism Government, and especially subject to the controuL year after the termination of the were. The of Parliament. The ancient jealousy against a Honourable Gentleman proceeded to slier standing army, it ought to be recollected, was against many of the charges to be met iu the pretest . such a force being maintained in these realms, and , were of a temporary nature.- [la going t not so mach from an approbation of that which i these, he was so remarka b ly inaneode, that ittne might be kept up in our foreign possessions. This I posliiblz to follow hi:n with 1nt:654)11.3 -at was expressed in the Bill of Rights, as it was in the de., the policy of keeping imp an army in Free, Mutiny Bill founded on the Bill of Rights. He, how- coatente:d that the difference bereein tie Ts ever, approved of the practice which had been intro- the present arrangement and that of the pee duced in modern times of bringing the army kept up blishment proposed by Mr. Fox. in 1751, in our foreign posses s ions under the contralti ot Par- partly ou t o f t h e diff erent c h aracter o f t ic tiro • liament, as well as that enaintaintal within these in the American war, Englatol lost thintesCl realms. The increase of men which the present Peace nies, the island o' Ni.,:inca, the Floritlas• .30,1 Establishment required, was small compared with the ' territories : in do. last, we had obtained MAN ' increased greatness of the country. When it was con- merara, Trinida d,V C • d other ie ape, an many sidered how much it had increased in every way— skins. The smallness of the former peace ebt • ,in population, in wealth— (Near, hear!)—He wished' rent was caused by the loss..s which the vim: to know if those who cried " Hear" v.ere of opinion sustained; and the largeness of the styptics there was no wealth in the country. He would not for in the present year partly arose from tLeadt interrupt his argument to go into that question now, tapes we had gained. He then compared me but he saw an Hon. Gentleman opposite who knew the charges which were to be met on 'the two - what wealth was, and he did not expect to bear from sions, and spewed that in 1784 it had teen , - him that there was any scarcity of real wealth in the to raise the sum of £900,000 by new tazet,og" country. One objection• which had been made to the in the present year it was proposed to eikt 4 force it was propured to keep up was, taat it would I sum ot Jew,ooo,ooo from these already laid* , be dangerous to the liberties of the country. Nuw the reductions to he tnade in time Preperty Tw . when the state of the Militia was looked at, and when in the other measures which had been stetedot s all the circumstances of the country were fairly taken the centemplation of Governm: tn. Tae into consideration, he would put it to the common rangemenr, the ditE:rent circumstances of Ilia; , sense of the House, and of the Nation, it it were not ar the two period, considered; was not mote e a mere chimera to talk -of jealousy of the army, be-Igant than that of 17:4. In enurnetaricg theeld: . cause it -was to be Bor 9000 men stronger than it had which must he met by :he country, even if the been 26 years ago, on a former Peace Establishment. were disbanded, he set forth those of the Wilr! With. respect to the evils which bad been heretofore fleets, the out-pensioners of Chelsea, t!7e Mo . experienced in this country from a standing army it Asylum, the Compissionate List, and othrtst would be desirable to know something. The o n ly in- amounted together to £1,9 0 0,000. The cleil stance to be found in our history in which the Crown made for the Volunteers having been mule, at.' bad attempted to make use of a standini; army of 41,000,000 would still remain for the area l against the rights of the people, was that furnished The force proposed to be kept up was neceiwt by Jamis 11. Heendeevoured to use the standing it was reserve to b proper we should have some army to the subversion of constitution a l lib ert y ; b utt the deficiencies uhich would occur in the c'-t at with what success ? The result was this—the army tioned in France ; and he believed a very snA immediately went to the right abdut, and declared serve had been smiled for this I.urpose• T he! ' for the Constitution, and the people—it hurled the maintained in Ireland was not more than wits • King from his throne, and compelled his Ministers t o riously elernanded by th e circumaances of tlistc: iiy the country. If such was formerly th e con d uct o f try. With the eXtencled possessions we a t P 7 a British army, what was there in th e co n d uct of t h e h e ld, expose d to su dd en attac k s f r om so two! S army of the present day, or' in the character of its tern, we ought to be prepared against the e i T 101 1 officers, that ought to make us at all suspicious that which threatened our dorninicns ; and where s_ cei our liberties are at all in danger horn them ? [Here portant interests were at stake; the expense ' 1 .7 11 it was said, ow the opposite side of the House., that it 40,000 men, mote or less, was not au obymt P bad.not been intended to cast any reflection en those first mag his oda nitude. who at present composed our army,] It was said no • Mr. BROUGHAM rose to express resection was meant on the present army.—why then raent and indignation at the sentiments cal t2 1 the reasoning they had heard w as not applicable to the speech of the Right Hon. Gentjeman w 0 the situation of the country at th e p res e nt day. It just sat down—at the languai calm in which thesewc4 could only be brought to bear on the abstract ques- menu had been uttered—at the cool, at o tion a it could not affect a temporary arrangement ;, which he had laid down principlts oab" .