Star. — London, England, 1811-02-23 00:00:00

11 01 !"'. P 4 RL IA 4 ''.lAr PROCEEDINGS. HOURS OF LORDS, FEBRUARY 22. Mr. ADAM was heard in the Appeal, Sir Robert Johnstone had others, v. Lord Hopetown and others.—A further bearing on Monday next. Evidence was adduced and examined on Lord Cloncurry's Divorce bill —Evidence to be furthere,tatuined on Monday. The LORD CHANCELLOR left the Woolsack, and adverting to a subject which he had often wished to direct their Lordships' attention to, viz. some mode 01 going through the basivess of Appeals, &c. with more regularity and dispatch, had it now in contem. plation to submit to them the result of his considera tion of the matter. He found - that it would not de. pend upon him; regard must be had to the business of the Courts below, and to the convenience of a Noble and Learned Friend of his, whose presence must be su desirable in that House in the decision of the important matters to which he had alluded. As soon as some arrangement could be made with that Noble and Learned Lord, he should be ready, at an early day of next week, to bring forward some propositions for getting through the business of Ap , peals with more regularity and dispatch. Mr EN UV. LAWS. Lord GRENVILLE, after adverting to a notice he had given of a motion respecting the better ascer taining and regulating of those laws, said, that he now held in' his hand a Bill to that effect, framed on the Report of the Committee, which had been appoieted last Session to inquire into these matters, and which he desited might be now read a first time. The more proper stage for the discussion of the ques tion, would, in his opinion, be the report, when the Bill came out of the Committee amended. What he bad Jo offer on the subject, he should reserve for that stage of the business ; and should move that the Bill be read a second time on Monday next. As the Bill was exactly the same as that prepared last year, he did not think it necessary to move that it be printed. LIMA. Lord HOLLAND said, that he had given notice of his intention to make a motion respecting the num ber of informations es cfrio which had lately been filed by his Majesty's Attorney against persons who were supposed to have incurred the penalties of pub lishing Libels, and the abuses with which, in his mind, the filing of such informations might be at tended. He should now fix the day on which be in tended to bring forward that motion, and name Mon day se'nnight ; for which he moved that their Lnrd ships be summoned to attend. Lord LIVERPOOL suggested, that it might be inconvenient for a Noble and Learned Loid, whose presence might' be desirable on such occasion, to at tend on that day. • Lord HOLLAND would have no objection, in that case, to name a day more convenient. vita CONVENTIOW BILL. The Marquis of LA'NSDOWN rose, for the pur pose of acquiring more information than Ministers had thought proper to afford the House on a former occasion, when the reasons and grounds were asked, which induced the Government of Ireland so sudden- Irto revive the Convention Act in that country tind in case he should not obtain a more satisfactory ee. planation than had then been given, of moving for certain papers from which a more clear and con vincing proof might be drawn, of the necessity of reseirting to a measure so extraordinary. When a Noble Friend of his (Lord Moira) had brought the subject - Fme days since under their Lordships consi-, aeration, and had asked for informition respecting the grounds and motives upon which Ministers had meted, in having recourse to so harsh, so violent, and so intemperate a measure, what was the answer which had so unexpectedly been returned ? Why, that the order for putting in force the Conven tion Bill in helots's!, did not emanate .froni the Prince Regent, did not emanate from the British Govern ment, but had actually emanated from the Irish Go vernment; and that under circumstances which, in the minds of Ministers, seemed to afford satisfaction, and fully to justify the - propriety of the measure which had thus suddenly and unexpectedly been taken. It has even been acknowledged by Ministers that they knew nothing of the matter, nor of the necessity that led to it, until the accounts had been received from Ireland of the measure having been actually put in force ;—and yet after their denial of knowing any thing of the matter, and after justifying the Irish Government on the plea of the necessity and the urgency of the ' , occasion, which called for a measure of such harshness, what information have they yet laid before the House in explanation of such con duct, but a letter dated the Ist January, purporting to be written by a person who styles himself Secretary of the Catholic Committee in Dublin ? Upon the appearance of that letter, which they now conceive Oa contain cause of such alarm, and matter of such peril, did they immediately adopt any measure to allay that alarm, or prevent that danger ? No such' thing. It was only on the 12th of February, 43 days subsequent to the writing of that letter, that any Notice seems to have been taken of it. Yet that let ter of Mr. Hay, the Secretary of the Irish Commit. tee, is the only document yet before the House, and the only ground adduced to justify the issuing of the letter addressed by Mr. Pole, Secretary to the Irish I Government, to the Magistrates and Sheriffs of the different counties in Ireland. What must their Lord ships think if - such a justification of such a measure, end of the period of time allowed to elapse between the issuing of that letter and the publication of the latter, which is said to have given rise to it ? Are the Noble Lords opposite to him in pose siession of no better justification of the conduct of the Irish Government for putting in force an Act of which, whatever might be supposed to be necessity when it was first deemed proper and expe dient to adopt it, had been allowed to lie dormant for at least t.tirteen years ? During that interval that law appeared to have been violated in many in stances, particularly by the meeting of what was called the Orange Lodge, but no alarm seem to be felt at these instances of its violation, till 43 days after the publication of Mr. Hay's letter ; when it was judged necessary and expedient to review and put that Ltw in force against the Catholics. He was not, and never would be, the advocate of any des cription of men who !hewed a disposition to act ille ,g and unconstitutionally.; but the body of the Irish Catholics he had long been taught to consider at a pt aciable and loyal class of his Majesty's sub jects, mid he was at a loss to discover the ground; of - • • so harsh a proeeeding against them ;a the laser now 1 it wets the 6 1 jeet of his WI& Friend's Motion . on their Lordships' table ; the only information,how. obtain, • Let him not be eonsidered as a person who eve r, which had yet been produced of the necessity would vindicate the'cause of any description of pert o f that extraordinary measure. The time and man- , sons who meant to act in en illegal manner ; and if nor in which it has been put iu force were also matter the Catholics had any intention of establishing a per t for their Lordships' most serious consideration. Forty manent convention to represent them, he would be th r ee days were allowed to elepse before any notice sensible of the (Lingers of such an attempt, and would was taken of it, and then it was so suddenly acted upon be the first to resist it. But of this there was no proof, that time was not given to consult with the Government as little was them any proof of any kind effort on the of England on its propriety, or to take the pleasure of part of the Irish Government to admonish them of the Prince Regent respecting it, who was just then the dangers of such en attempt, to make allowances ' taking upon himself the reins o f G over n ment . What for the irritation they most feel, at seeing themselves are the feelings and opinions of hisßoyal Highness on excluded from an esjuid participationof the privilege, this question there cannot be much doubt; nor can enjoyed by their rretestant fellow subjects; an eeduel his disposition in favour of the Catholics of Ireland sion which must naturally prove so galling to tree . - be well called in question. He should ground uothing, men. Such forbearance wed such admonition, woulik , however, on what were the supposed opinions of his have only been the act of a mild, beneficent, and ' Royal Highness. Sure he was that, on all occasions, paternal Government ; but such a disposition was his Roy.tt Highness would feel that the hand of Go- not to be expected frOne the Noble Lords opposite : veramelit should be firm and energetic, particularly I him ; though they might well suppose it to be the 1 under all the circumstances of the present moment; disposition of the Illustrious Person who was at the' but his Royal Highness would also never forget that , m o ment preparing, A.) assume the direction of Govern firmness did not consist in rashness, intemperance,' went. Such an opportunity was not to be afforded and violence; and under what other colour could the ' to that Illustrious Person. The measure was abruptly measure now so unadvisedly taken in Ireland be fairly adopted, before the pleasure of the Prince Regent considered ? The Noble Secretary of State had in - could be taken upon it. He should imagine that from deed affirmed, that there was discovered among the the turn of she Fete unfortunate discussions which had Catholics of Ireland a deliberate, systematic intention taken place on the RegenCy Bill, a correct idea of the of violating the law. Had the Noble Earl adduced Monarchy had gone out of the minds of some persons. any information to ground such a charge, he would They had usurped powers which were 'irreconcilable be among the first to acknowledge the propriety of with that idea. They have violated the forms as well the steps that had been taken. But the only informa- as the substance of the Constitution. He was still tion yet before their Lordships to warrant the asser- oldfashioned enough to attend to forms; and he tions of the Noble Earl, and justify the conduct of would ask some Noble Lords whom he saw in their the Irish Government, consisted in the single letter places, and vsho ought to be conversant with the now on their Lordships' table. Could such informa- forms observed by the Irish Government, whether tion justify such a measure, especially under all the such a measure as that of putting in force the Con circumstances of the moment, when it was put in vention would, in other times, have been adopted force ? 'He was convinced that it could not. He without any consultation with the Secretary of State, would therefore move for the production of other pa- or without any knowledge of the pleasure of the So pert, by which some further and more satisfactory vereign respecting it ? Did he ever know a Secretary light might be thrown upon the business. If the No• of the Lord Lieutenant to have taken upon himself bleEarl should rest his objection to his motion, on the to issue such an order ? 'Was not the more regular impropriety of giving publicity to such information, and usual way a proclamation by the Lord Lieute he would be satisfied with having it referred to a nant himself ? These forms were all, however, ne- Secret Committee ; but if that proposal did not meet glected or disdained on the present occasion, and the ,the Noble Earl's approbation, he should move that Secretary of the Irish . Government seemed to have there be laid before the House copies or extracts of set up a Regent for Ireland. These were all points such dispatches as had bet n received from, or sent to of more importance than might appear at first sight, the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, with respect to the and which called for their Lordships' most serious 'putting of the Conveotion Act in force. I consideration. Nothing yet had appeared satisfacto- The Earl of LIVERPOOL thought the informas rily to account for the conduct of the Irish Govern ' tion already before their Lordships fully sufficient to ment, for the delay that had occurred in resorting to ' justify the measure that had been adopted, and was so severe a measure—a measure too pointedly direct persuaded that the bringing forward of any further ed against the Catholics, if such a measure had really information could not Le attended with any good been necessary. As little is there 'any information reonsequences at the present moment. Whether it before their Lordships of the grounds upon which was wise or not so long to have deferred the adoption Ministers justify the conduct of thelrishGovernment; of that measure, after observing the conduct of the and, with a view to procure that satisfactory infer- Catholic Committee, in Dublin, he should not now mation, he should cordially support the motion of his oaf to argue, but was sure that it would have been Noble Friend. ectsng'any thing but a wise part to allow their pro- I The Earl of ROSS said, he had formed a very 'seeding to pass unnoticed and unrestrained, when they different idea of the proceedings and objects of the •began to exceed all bounds, and overstep the limits Irish Government from that professed by the Noble and the objects of their avowed intentions by their , Lord who spoke last. He seemed to lay much stress meeting. Their great object was, the preparing of on the date of the circular letter issued by the Secre their petition to Parliament; that petition had been tart' of the Catholic Committee, but it by no means already agreed upon, and prepared. They must followed that it was Wird on the day of its date. therefore have had some other objects in view, when Nothing of that kind appeared. On the contrary, they attempted to increase their numbers to such an ' there was every reason to snppose, from the degree of extent, and so far enlarge the sphere of their action. I secrecy which in all probability was observed in that The far greater part of the Catholics of Ireland, and' part of the proceedings, that the issue of the dom. by far the most respectable classes of that body, view- , ment did not come to the knowledge of the Irish Go ed the conduct of those who composed the Commit-: veroment for some time after. This was apparent tee in Dublin with distrust and disapprobation. They i from what took place in the Committee of the Catho-, saw them assume a power which did not belong to : lid in Dubin on the 2d of February; to the proceed-, them, and aspire to an influence which might possi-; ings of which hie Lordship referred, and from which, bly be exerted for the attainment of other objects than !be argued, that some allowance should be made in' that of their petition to Parliament. Whatever mighol considering the conduct of. the Irish Government be his individual opinion respecting the claims of the pith respect to the measure in question. Those pro- Irish Catholics, lie should always be ready to consi- teedings, he contended; spewed an intention in the der them as peaceable subjects, and loyally attached (Committee to proceed in the consideration of other to the person of the Monarch ; and in proportion as i matters beside th e Petition, the question of which was he respected them for these good qualities, was he I finally disposed of on the 23 of February. An inten anxious to distinguish them from those who might be ' non of this kind was also apparent by its being re animated by different motives, and who might involve quired, that the members elected should occasionally them in difficulties and dangers of which they might or permanently reside in Dublin; and this, coupled not be now aware. Their object in assembling in Dublin i with the other proceedings on the occasion, evinced to the number of 838, couldnot surely be to manage their determination to constitute a permanent Con their petition as they termed it, but to constitute some- vention, for the purpose of regular deliberation far thing in the form of a permanent convention, the evil! ulterior objects, and with a view to overawe the con- , consequences that might result from which, it was no stitutional government of the country. He insisted doubt unnecessary to explain to that House. Indeed i that the Irish Government had merely done its duty in, whoever attentively perused the letter on the table, ', endeavouring to suppress weir en assembly, and that must be convinced from many expressions in it, that' the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland when he declined their sole object was net to forward their petition, but I taking steps for that purpose deserved to be impeached. to establish themselves into a permanent authority fort He well remembered in what light an assembly, which some further purposes. He could therefore see no ne- I was held in Dublin in MS, composed of men of the cessity for the production of further information at first rank and property in the county, including se. the present moment. viral Peers and Members of Parliament, which had , The Ear) of GROSVENOR acquiesced in every met to deliberate on objects the most constitutional, thing that had fallen from his Noble Friend (Lord i was regarded by the then Government of Ireland. Lansdowne). Could he suppose that the Catholic ;He knew it was debated at the time in the Irish Ca- Committee had ea,' intention of erecting itself into binet, whether that Assembly should be put down by any thing like a permanent convention, he should be : forceof arms? What he argued for on the present amongst the most strenuous in opposing their designs. I occasion was not grounded on his own knowledge of But of such an intention there was yet no proof be- i the positive facts, but upon fair and rational presump fore their Lordships. Indeed their Lordships, and : tion, deducible from circumstances which were pub the country at large, seemed to be industriously kept ! licly notorious. Even some of the Catholic body in the dark respecting the real state of the affairs of themselves saw the assemblage of the county delegates Ireland. The prints, supposed to be under the influ- in a very unfavourable light, as was apparent on the ence and direction of Ministers, had been representing occasion when Mr. Keogh moved for, and Lnrd the condition to be tranquil and secure up to the very French strongly supported, the rescinding of the Re moment when accounts were received of the necessity solution ; as he had more than once adverted to. 'kith the Government of that country felt to put in Lord GRENVILLE spoke shortly in explanation. force the Convention Bill. Of that necessity no proof, Lord HOLLAND rose principally, he said, in in his opinion, could he found in the information now consequence of what fell from the Noble Lord w ho before that House. It was essential, however, to as- spoke last. He seemed to build his arguments on certain whether it existed or not ; and with that view the presumptions which should be allowed in favour "Ise should vote with his Noble Friend for the produc- of the Irish Government. If the Noble Lord atten tion of further information. ded to the question regularly before the House, he Lord GRENVILLE could not but offer a few not only would find no such ground for argument, observations on the present occasion. The Noble but could not consistently refuse to sanction that mo- Secretary of State,who had risen to answer the speech I tion with his vote. The motion was not for any cen of his Noble Friend, did any thing but answer the l sure on the Irish Government, but tending to an in more prominent points of that speech ; and, indeed, quirt', by which the grounds for such presumptions M avoiding to do so, he acted wisely. His Noble may be ascertained ; it would af f ord an opportunity Friend pressed for an explanation of the reasons of shearing how the Government of Ireland was em which induced th e Iri s h Government• to have so long ployed in the long interval adverted to by his Noble delayed the putting in force of the Convention, if the Friend. Whether they had endeavoured to learn letter from the Secretary of the Catholic Committee what the real object of the proposed assembly was— was really th e cause of their resorting to a measure so what communietitions they had made to the Govern rash and intemperate ? He, however, pressed in vain ' ment in England on the subject—and the consequent for that explanation. It was therefore natural to con- instructions, if any, received by the Irish Government. dude that some other grounds existed in justification The object of the motion was to produce th ese differ f such a tac oni te ; an tis knowledge of these grounds eat important facts to the knowledge of their Lord. eisaicelidbet!sehzei:s 'ships. ft was ctflicuit, From what MI whenlom cothempel4:.. bye Lords opposite, to charac thi t e e e. r c i ci ': t e aittyi t te h , adopted, or the rea p l . o ,i b , j ,t eit , s f of th e huge, as regarded by Ministers. Such incertitude tr. minded him of Soria in the play, v. ho, ed to give up the persecutor,“ Then, if am not Soria, will you have the Vness to tell me who I aro i'" (. 1 / a wlk.) A great depended, his Lordsb;to contiimed to ;on e. fact of the authorieing, the important an d event fat document issued by the Government of Ireland. On this occasion, the words usfd by Mr. Burke fur. cibly struck him : 4 , it is a difficitlt thing to draw an indictment against a whole nation." But 1-e must add, in the present batance,. that he should think it a still more difficult thing to commit to p r e itt son a t ts 4 .o l l ' l . l St ir t fi l i r l ee l)lC .f° d ll le t. : t r ili t i t ddl:ll.PliTillait6%Vlof(*)ll7nllloldre. observation. It had been advanced by a Noble Lord on a former night, that the bide Convention Bill was but a declaratory Act. Of what? Was it (-1 the Common Law of Ireland ? The Common Lari Of Ireland and England, he Understood, was NECI W ; ly the same, and be mu* stand up for thr ri,cetts of Englishmen, and for the principle, that the Cuero mon Law of this country would admit t.! no such de: claratory Act. The Earl of DOWOUGHMORE entered intd some details of the proceedings of the CR IhniiC Ccrr• mittee, and argued, that in a fair aad candid paint of view, as well as from what was incontrovertftly apparent on the face of the proceediegs, no such con. elusions as those drawn by Noble Lords opposite, particularly the Noble Earl who spoke last, could be deduced from them. The object, he Contended, would appear to be no other than in order to give the Petition more weight and effect, that the opinion of a number of delegates liom the different counties of Ireland should be taken upon the measure ; and that if they approved of its being prescnited and discussed this Session, they should so state that opinion, and sign the petition accordingly. That this was the pro. posed object of the Assembly was farther -apparent, from what their principal spokesman, W. O'Connell, said upon the subject. He said it would be open for them to decline proceeding upon the petition this see- 1i0n... This, he contended, was the real andonly ob ject for the appointment of an additional number of delegates. Their view was the more solemnly to authenticate the petition by the deliberate aperoval and signature of delegates from the different countiee. This was the purport of this great and mighty pro ceeding--this Catholic Parliament ! v.hich was to en danger the Government of Ireland ! No, the view was to ascertain or srsew that it was the general feeling of the Catholics of Ireland, that the pre sent was a fit and proper time to renew their ap plications to the justice of the Imperial Parliament. —With respect to the manifesto, foe so he must call it, of Mr. flee:Nary Pole, it was a paper of no common importance. What was its object ? To pre sent a great porticn of his Majesty's subjects from ating what they at least think to be great griev ances—to prevent them from having recourse to the only mode in which they can legally and unturbu. 'entity assemble, for the purpose of obtaining redress. In what other mode could they proceed ? Was it not preferable to assembling themselves in the diffe tent counties? Would not the recent proceeding of lord the Catholics of Ireland room to say they Were a marked and proscribed people i that they wcre the watch-word of a ~ No Popery" Administration.— This line of conduct and language with respect to them, was very different from the nature and charac ter of the proceedings which formerly took place, even in the Parliament of Ireland, in their favour, when their case was duly noticed ,in a speech from the Throne, and high remedial Statutes passed in their behalf. He deprecated the liiie of policy which his Majesty's Ministers adopted, with respect to no fewer than four millions of the subjects of their com mon Sovereign, in %those ear, be was afraid, much misrepresentation, with respect to them, had been poured. The Statutes of which they laboured to pm lcure a repeal, were a disgrace to the Statute Book; I and to prevent their endeavours to obtain this Lauda ' ble end the paper in question was calculated. It was to prevent his Majesty's Catholic subjects of Ireland from doing that to which all the King's subjects ie common had a legal and constitutional right, viz. to petition for a redress of their grievances. But the manifesto of the Irish Secretary would have a con trary effect from that for which it was calculated ; it would eventually call upon all the Catholics in Ire land not to do any unlawful acts, but to vindicate their characters, and to express their cpinions upon the points in question. With respect to his Nobla Friend'; (the Earl of Ross) idea, that the proceed ings of the Catholics were of a secret nature, :oil that the circular letter was not issued for some tuna after its date, he observed, that Ministers may thane him for his defence, hut it was not their defence. He could furnish their Lordships with some evidence on that head. It so happened that he himself had re ' cei_yed a letter _Cram- Me wee. the Secretary to the inclosed dated several(w e b p e ri li n e t v e e d ) e t e h p e ie t s tt nf h o th r e a r a i t r ii c i a u r l y ar , i l which rn i i n tt c ee lo ' letters, so little secrecy was observed on the occasion. He communicated some of them to his friends, and to a Noble Lord then present. He was not desirous of keeping his correspondence a secret. He freely communicated his sentiments on the occasion to scnie of his Catholic friends. He represented to them they had many enemies, desired them to be cautious, and not place themselves in the power of Government; that they need not be so anxious with respect to the signature or modelling of their petition ; so as that it was regular and respectful it would be received, and fully as much attended to by all who regarded the principles of justice and sound policy, as it would be were it backed in the *way they proposed ; the trouble therefore they intended to take in that respect was un necessary. This was the nature and effect of the ad vice which the Noble 'Earl said be offered on the oc casion, and 'such were his.real sentiments. Impressed as he was, he most cordially supported the motion of his Noble Friend. The question was then put on the Marquis of Lens downe's motion, which was negatived without a divi sion. After which the House immediately adjourned till Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS. - -- - Sir W. PLOMER presented a Petition frurtt the Lori May', Aldermen, and Commons of the City of Lonctua. in Comin , —Comma assembled, against tin Western Junction Canal L.ll— Tv reo Co