Star. — London, England, 1807-02-20 00:00:00

I „ crr pra y appear ; that is, there am:ld be - ccaion for the ezeention of them. Not. ~...:•I : A n ning all he had hitherto Hated, there yet re: ruined, he laid, a good deal to be done, fur the Or pole of lUCCOltring thrife in need ; and it would be neceffary to reflect, whether it was not poffibtt to make a more equal diflribution of property than was o r A ls done in the manner of railing and paying the poor rate ? It would be found that the flatute 43 Elizabeth laid, that in every parilh the rate fhould he ra iled according to the number of poor contained in ft ; and if that could not in any one parilh be done, t hole who inhabited the adjoining parifh might be rated fur that purpole. Thule rates had, however, been always looked un as odious. Numberlefs ap• p ea ls had, from time to time, been brought where Inch rates had been made on an adjoining county, but the d,:cifions of the Juitices in the Quarter Sef {ions had uniformly been confirmed by Lord Mani field, and the other Learned Judges, as being confo mot to Cie letter and fpirir of that A& There were cafes, he laid, in fotne parillres, in which the diftrefs fo great, that there was no refuting thole rates ; and he iritianced two, viz. Mile-end and Spitalfields, where the poor live upon the poor, and where the opulent perfons who employed thole poor people lived in other parithes. This happened alto not to be confined fulely to the Metropolis, but was actually the cafe in many agricultural parifhes, which unquef tionably appeared more extraordinary. To remedy this, however, he would propufe that there ( h ould be a general teturn made by all overfeers, of the general amount of the rates levied within the lag three years; and if it proved that any parifh had railed double the average rate of the county for the maintenance of the poor in any one year, !Itch parilh fhould re ceive a reimburfement of to much from the county rate. Initances of this kind had happened in the counties of Middlefex and Leicefter ; and to effea this deferable purpofe, he would propofe to make a general county rate, and that every Seventh year the parifh rate fhould be again returned, and the county rate regulated by that. The greater part of the county rates, he Paid, had generally fallen on the landed property ; but that was not the intention of the AR of Elizabeth, which exprefsly lays, that per fonal property fhould be equally liable : and to make that intention more available, he would propofe that all vifible property (hould be equally liable to pay ad valorem, as far as it was known. Another principle laid down by Mr. Malthus was—a but in recurring to frequently to the authority of this able writer, (laid be), I fhould mention that in paying attention to what I have no doubt waa diftated by benevolence in him, the Houle ought to put a guard on them. (elves, lett they Puffer their bofoms to be Reeled againft humanity. I don't mean to fpeak with the fmallell difrelpea of that Gentleman ; but I have Sound it neceffary mote than once to put myfelf on my guard in this refpee.” Mr. Malthus, he laid, bad told the public, in his very meritorious work on this fubje&, that the greateft reftraint on the popula tion of the country was the operation of the Poor Laws. The ftatute of Elizabeth dire.led that over leers &mild have a power to ere& cottages in each parilh for the refidence of the poor ; and for fume time after t!:c palling of that ttatute fuch cottages bad been t The law Rill temained the fame at this moment, but had for a great length of time fallen into general difufe. He would propofe, there fore, to re-enad that part of it, and give a power to overfeers to ere& cottages to the extent of a limited funs, for the rdidence of fetch perfons as vtere really entitled to receive parochial fupport, with provifions which fhould guard effetually againft any perfons being permitted to petrels loch cottages under any falfe or fraudulent pretences, and to confine them firiely to fuch as were really poor and entitled to re lief from that parifh. He would alto give a further power to overfeers, with the confent of the parilh, ;a purchafe land for the erection of loch cottages. Ano ther &Citable purpofe which he had in view was a better contlitution of velities, which were at pre fent generally compofed of perfons who attend them for the purp ,fe of wrangling and (hewing thei,:confe quence in the parifh, more than to forward and pro. mote the public welfare. He would, therefore, pro pofe that vefiries fhould be obliged to meet once in every month ; that the Miniller, if he were prefent, fhould always prefide, and in his ablence that the fe nior and junior churchwarden fhould take the chair, and in the abfence of all thofe, the parifhioner deemed molt proper from property cr refpeetability of charaler. He would alfo alter the mode of vot ing, and that every one prefent fhould have a vote, which would prevent the proceedings of veftries be• ing always ruled and governed by perfons of a higher Ration than the genet ality who attend them. By Mr. Gilbert's Aft, no perfon had a right to vote who did not pay sl. a year to the poor rate. He would, however, preppie, that every one (hould have a vote according to hi; property, and that every occupier of a houfe in the parifh fhould have his name let down ; and by what he paid to the rate, they would fo, 01 .t judgment of his property, with an appeal to the lattices, in all cafes, where any one thought himfell injured by the rate. He then adverted to what he laid he thought one of the moll ?important features of his fytlem, viz. the mode of adminif tering relief to the poor." He would propofe, that henceforward it fhould be deemed a misfortune for any one that was under the neceffity of having re courfe to parochial relief. It had hitherto happened in many cafes, that fome families had lived more comfortably, and more to their fatisfaCtion, who re ceived parochial relief, than thole who did not ; and wheneverthatwasthe cale,it took away the Stimulus in the father of fuch a family to exert himfelf effeeually to maintain them without fuch atliftance, and there by added very confiderably to the Poor Rates in every parilh that was hurthened with poor. He was no friend, he laid, to the workhoufe lyflem, nor to the expence of finding Stock for perfons to labour on. fie would have the poor to labour, but not in work houfes. That fyftem flit took effect in the reign of George I. and in its early Rages, it feemed to have the etre& of leffenirg the Poor Rates; but that ap pearance was loon found to be fallacious, and thole tclto favoured it were, in the end, convinced they had Lamed a wrong notion. of them.. Workhoufes had, for a great leny,th- of time, been fuppofed to be eco nomical, and Overfiers had thought it right to drive perfons into the:-r, who fought relief frcm the Par ilh. In doing this, however, they had gone on moll inju dicioully and extravagantly, for it had been proved to a certainty, that thole who had bet n" kept within thole Honfes were not maintained at let s than 7:I. a year, whillt tae annual etpence of thofe who were maintained out of them, d;d not amount to more than 31.. . He fhould not, however, propole that wnrkhcnfes thnuld be demolifh.;d nor new ere&ed, but that they thould be made places of refidence and reception for the old, the blind, the . lame and 'Aria, and'he would put it in the power ofOverfecrs to put pet Cons to board with their relations and neighbours who might be inclined to receive them at a Itipulated Turn, and that perfons fhould be entitled to relief from the parifh, though they were in paffeffion of goods of any k'nd to a certain amount. To illuf trate what he had laid as to the maintenance of per lot:3 in workhoufes, he thought it necelfary to Rate that it had generally been conceived, that when many perfons are to be maintained at the public expence, it would be done cheaper by having them in one family ; but that idea had been indifputably proved to be erroneous, for the charge in that cafe amounted to 181. a head annually : whereas in thole inflances in which they bad been put out feparately in different parts of the country, the annual expence was not more than 31. or thereabouts. He was well aware that, in what he had flitted to the Houk at fo much length, he had produced nothing that was aenally new—but be flattered himfelf that, from the atten tion and conlideration which he had long given to this highly important fubjeet, he had been able to place fome things in a•new point Of view, and with the affißance of many able perfons who had favoured him with, and would continue to lend him their aid, he had the molt pleating and fatisfaelory hopes that he thotild, if the Houle gave him leave to introduce his Bill, be able to modify the Poor Laws in loch a manner, as greatly to ameliorate the condition of the poor, and at the fame time to leffen the expence of their maintenance in fuch a degree, that in time the Poor Laws would gradually difitppear. Some perfons rrr;ght imagine he had been induced by a vi. lion, that had long been before him, to flatter himfelf with being able to elle& what fo many others had attempted in vain. In his efforts to this deferable end he had been greatly encouraged by the impt oved Rate of fociety, and by giving to the lower claffes of the community the benefits accruing from education— he was Cure he fhould give them the enjoyment of a tweet which hitherto they had never tailed. In the relaxation of the Law of Settlement, he would rid the community of much vexations and expenfive liti gation, and would give the poorer claffes much bet ter fecurity of being provided for. In cur , iiling the workhoufe fyhem, he fhould give great relief to the country, and at the fame time cafe it of an immenfe expence—and in giving the Juftices a power of judg• ing between the criminal and need - nous poor, and of beltowing on the former a badge of difgrace, which thould point them out to the public in the light they deferved, he hoped he fhould effed the greaten ad vantages to the community at large. if this were an Melon, it was a molt pleating and fatisfaetory one to him. He thanked the Houle for the indulgence they had (hewn, in lißening with Co much patience and attention to the long llatement which he had been under the neceffity of fubmitting to them. His only with at prefent was, leave to bring in his Bill, and that it thould go as fpecdily as polfible to a Commit tee, merely p o forma, to fili up the blanks—that it thould then be printed, and fent to the feveral (tiar• ter Seffions throughout the kingdom ; and after having been duly confideced by a.l thofe who may be fup poled to be belt acquainted with the fobjeet out of the Houle, when the refult of their opinions was known to the Houle, it would then be recommitted—and from the united wifdom of the Hcufe, if the fyl• tern did not appear to them too novel, he hoped the Bill might be fo modified as tc receive the faniftion of the Houle, and pars into a law in the courfe of the prefent Seflion. He concluded by moving— " That leave be given to he ing in a Bill for the Promotion and I ncouragcmcnt of induitry among the Labouring Claffes of the Community, and for the bvit:r Regitationa and Subfiftence of the Mc.ff.toui Poor." The Motion having been read from the Chair, Mr. ROSE laid, he had liQened with the greateft attention to the ftatement fo ably and eloquently fob milled to the confideration of the Houfe by the Hon. Gentleman, and he thought nothing could be more praifeworthy than his intentions, nor more honoura ble to his head and heart, than the fyltem, the out• line of which met with his entire approbation, and for which he was entitled to his warmeft thanks. It leaned, however, to him, that there was an omiflion of one article, viz. the employment of the poor, with out providing for which he was much afraid his ob ject could not be completely effected. Mr. WHITBREAD faid, there would be a provi fion in the Bill for the employment of the poor, tho' he had not particularly Qated it in his fpeech. Mr. ROSE faid, he was glad to hear there would be Inch a provilion ; and he thought it might be pro per, and very advantageous alt . °, to combine with it the inftruetion of the poor in manufactures. It had, in fome degree, been done in the county of Lincoln, where fome Gentlemen had made the experiment ; but it could never be brought to any %ado' end with out the encouragement of Gentlemen in the neigh• bourlidod. He thought it might be neceffary to give this meafure its full effect, to divide the Bill into two or thtee, which might eafily be done. The Bill might go out to the different Q s tiarter Sefflons as it was; and, when the Houfe refumed the confidera lion of it in a Committee, it might be divided as they fhould think molt advifeable. Mr. LEIGH KECKfpolie fhortly in approbation of the plan. Mr. N. CALVERT returned his warmell thanks to his Honourable Friend for his great exertions on this fubjed, and exprelfed his highefl approbation of his plan, in which he thought there was a great deal of good, and very little to find fault with. Mr. ELLISON thought there was a great deal to be done, before the fylkm in quellion could at all be made feafible. He was fearful there was con tained in it a great deal of complex matter, which might lead the Houle and the country into greater embarrafFment than it is at prefenr, in confequence of the poor laws. However, as it yeast° go into the country for the conlideration of the Ju{lices, whole experience unqueflionably enabled them to form a jult opinion of it, he would not fay any thing in op rfnion to it at prefent. If, however, the cafe thould not be decided with the utmoll caution, it might tend t future errors, which it would not be cafy to really or remove. He thought nothing more was necef fary on this head, than to fimplify the Statute of Elizabeth, is which we had expel ince to g.) by and to gait' ns ; and that he thought would be prefer able to going intn the wide field of inncvation and unCertainry. Had the bill bratight in by the Rioht Honourable Gentleman, no:v no more, "thole abilities were univerfilly acknowledged to he of the troll fu perior clals, pa ffed int') a law, it would have produced incalculable mifchiefs and mifery in the country.— He gave the Honourable Gentleman gicat credit for his exertions, and the candour and ability with which be had brought lot ward his plan, but, he feared it could not be made to effea what he teemed to ex pelfrom it. Mr. SPENCER STA NHOPE Paid, he v. , as Pure if the Hon. Gentleman wifned to have the opinions of the County Magiarates on this very complex bull nefs, it would be -neceffary to fplit it into feveral bills. Every one was acquainted with the general hurry and bullle there is at the Q2arter Seal-ms, and how imponible it would be for the Magiarates to give fo voluminous a bill, as this mull neceffatily be, a due confideration. He wifhed heartily that his great effor s mig' t be crowned with fuccefs, and beg ged liave to return him his warmers thanks for the very able and candid manner in which he had brought it forward. He thought, however, that after he had fubmitted his bill to the conf►dcration of the Houle, he would himfelf move to have it divided. Lord HOWICK Paid, he thought there was only one fentiment in the Houfe as to the manner in which this plan had been brought forward by his Honou rable Friend, and the pains and abilities he had fo clearly (hewn he had devoted to it. He was fore it was not the intention of his Honourable Friend, in any manner, to prefs forward his Bill in a hafly way —but it mull be clear to every one, that it ought not to meet with any unneceffary delay. He thought the courfe pointed out by his Honourable Friend was the bell that could be ptirfued, viz. that it fhould fill be circulated among the Magiftrates for their conlidera tion and opinion, then be recommitted, and pro ceeded upon as fpeedily as poflible. The Houle might then confider it in the whole; and, if it thould be thought more proper and advifable, they might divide it. As to himfelf, he would, at that time, exprefs no opinion at all on it. On a fubjeet of fuch van importance and great variety of matter, doubts mull neceffarily arife. As to the time of bringing in the Bill, he fhould certainly defer to the judgment of his Hon. Friend; hut he hoped it might be put in fuch a train, that tome part of it at lean might be difcuffed within as short a time as poffible. Mr. STURGESS BOURNE concurred in opinion with the Noble Lord who had juft fat down ; and hoped the Honourable Gentleman would bring for ward his Bill fo early that it might be tranfmitted to the feveral counties at the enfoing Aflizes, which would be before the (Inane,. Sellons. He expreffed his entire approbation of the plan, and his thanks for the great exertions and abilities which the Honoura ble Gentleman bad difplayed in bringing it forward. Mr. WHITBREAD laid, he hoped he Ihoold be able to bring in his Bill on Monday nest. Sir J. NEWPORT highly approved the plan, and expreffed his hopes that it would lay the foundation for the introduaion of a fimilar meafure for the bene fit of Ireland. He acknowledged that the Committee which had been, as truly mentioned by the Hon. Ge ntleman, appointed to confider this matter with;refpeft to Ireland, had (hewn themfelves very averfe from the plan. A fort of fubnitute, had, however, taken place in Ireland, by meting Houfes of Indunry, and it had been found, that the expence had by no means been fo great as was imagined : for, that in one of thole, confining of idiots and lunatics, which were rather more expenfive than the poor in general, the entire expence of that innitution did not amount to more than 71. a head. He thanked the Hon. Gen tleman for his meafure, and hoped it would be pro ceeded with, in as fpeedy a manner as the nature and importance of it would admit of, and that it might be followed by a fimilar meafure for Ireland. Mr. BRAGGE BATHURST thought, that if the Bill was not brought in before Monday next, it could not be printed and circulated by the Monday following, on which day fume of the approaching affixes would commence. He was of opinion, there fore, that Government would do well to order a much greater number of the Bill to be printed, than would be neceffary to fend to the Quarter Seilions ; and that thole should be tranfmitred as other Atts of Parliament are, to the feveral Magi(hates at their own hotifes, by which means they would have an opportunity of giving the Bill their moll mature confideration, and go to the Quarter Salons, each of them much better prepared to commune with each other on the fubjeet, and the refult of their confeder ation would more fpeedily be produced. He would alto fuggeft, that if the whole of the Hon. Gentle man's plan fhould not meet with the approbation of the Houfe, that he would Rill perfiß in bringing for ward fuch parts as might be thought proper to be adopted. Mr. WHITBREAD affured the Hon. Gentleman and the Houle, that if any, the (mallet part of this Bill, met with approbation, he should endeavour to have fuch part paffed into a law. The motion was then put, and leave given to brittg in the Bill. FINANCIAL RESPLUTIONS. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that the (aid Refolutions be now read a fe cond time. Sir JAMES PULTENEY was aware that injury would accrue to the Stockholders of the country by interfering with the Sinking Fund. The benefit of the Stockholder arifes from the quantity of Sinking Fund brought into the market. In the year 1791, the duce per cents reached 96. He was lorry to lay that we could not equalize the Loan with the Sink ing Fund. The pref . :at debt, money capital, amount ed to 352,957,0001. the new debt was forty millions, which, together, made upwards of 390 millions.— He entirely difappruved of pledging the War Taxes. He was for uniting the War Taxes and the Sinking Fund, and ellablithing a Permanent Debt and a Permanent Sinking Fund. If the War Taxes be deduced from the debt, the debt would then be 291 millions. If to this be added the Sinking Fund he propufed, the amount would he 14,700,0001. whereas the Sinking Fund of the Noble Lord would amount only to 13,000,0001. The Noble Lord's debt would be 291,190,0001. whereas the debt would be 279 mil lions. He threw out thole fuggeflicns without pre 7 tending to any extraordinary accuracy in the calcu lation, or method in the arrangement.. Mr. THORNIsON, from a compArVon the two I .. .. ; • i - fohle Lords' plans, was inclitted'tegie . etne entire preference to that of the N . life Lord Petty)/ at that T-T tide of the , stife. The oth er 14 lr ;.hle'.ord ad Pro. poled a Loan of b t : t e l even million :, hat he ad not mentiered that the &ficit fh roll be furplied by an additioriel taxation of no lets than t 4 million , a year. He objected to the words "pr:forit fyllem" as ufed by the Noble Lord. N.-fides, no lubtritote had been pro• pelted by the N.ible Lord for the excalfes of the Sink, log Fund. He di± - approved of a third plan that had been firggefted as to 11;e Cto t ^pageUf ihe Sin king Fund.. The Honourable Mern'aer adverted 1,1 the ribferva arms of the Gentlemen on the other fide, relative to the borrowing of money on compr.und inter ell. He begged thole Gentlemen fully to cunfi fer the (*.died, and it would appear 'hat the taxes wl,ich the N. Lord's fyflem enabled him to avoid impofing, formed a laving that mere than counterbalanced the difadvantage which the mode of borrowing nbjeded to was likav to produce. With regard to the mil. chiefs apprehended from the idea which this fyflem involved, of legifl tting potietity, he deprecated the notion that it was not lubjea to any al , eration hereafter, if circumflances fhould appear to require fuch alteration. After preffing the propriety, in point of g o od f a i t h an d policy, o f' always prefer ving the principle and promotieg the progrefs of the Sink ing F.Jnc , the Hel; Member congratulated the Houle and the Country upon the Qate of our re fources which the plan now under confideration pre fen:ed. For, notwithflanding all the petits we had encoenteted, and all the expences we had incurred. it appeared that, after payinA between twenty and thirty millions for the intereff of our debt, we were flill able, within about 2,5e0,0c01. to meet an annual expenditure of nearly forty millions, Ihould it be deemed expedient to apply the whole of the War Taxes and the produce of our Sinking Fund to de. fray the expence of the war. But even leaving the Sinking Fund not only untouched but accumulating, it was a fource of the higheti fatisfaelion to think, that we had means within ourrelves amply fufficient to meet all the increafed expence exiting out of the difficulty of our fituation, while the enemy was only able to HAM by oppreffion, impofition, and illufory expedients in his own country, combined with con fifcations and military exactions in the territory of his unfortunate neighbours. The Hcn. Member con cluded with expreffing his decided preference of the fyftem propofed by the Noble Lord on the Treafury Bench, to any and to all the plans that had been of fered from the other fide of the Houfe. Mr. JOHNSTCNE thought the Noble Lord's calculation of our expences extremely erroneous, even as to the prefent year. For it appeared quite probable that in the prefent fituation of the Continent, Proflia mutt be altogether abandoned, or a much larger amount of fubfidies would be required, than the Noble Lord profeffed to have in contemplation. Betides, there was a film of soo,ocol. due to the India Company, which the Noble Lord omitted in his ellimate. The Honourable Gentleman protefted againft the idea that Minifters fhould take credit for having had this fyflem of finance in contemplation, fo far back as laft year, as in the fpeech at the be ginning of the Seflion, his Majefly expreffed his re gret at the necellity that exifted for additional burdens on his people. Therefore it was manifelt that this plan had but recently fprung up. To this compli cated fcheme the Hon. Gentleman recommended preference of the fimple procefs of borrowing eleven millions annually, and levying taxes only to pay the intereft of Co much of that fum as exceeded the pre. fent amount of the Sinking Fund, namely, for 2,5eca,c001. This prejed would, he contended, cc cation lefs taxation, and produce lets debt by forty millions, than the fyftem propofed by the Noble Lord. Mr. BANKES obferved that a radical error run through 'he Speech of the tall Speaker, namely. that the produce of the Sinking Fund fhould be applied to the current expences of the year, and of courfe en tirely fufpended from its übjed. The confequence, therefore, of the Honourable Member's projed would be this, that inflead of tl.e public creditor being paid off in 45 years, according to the principle of the Sinking Fund, and the pledge of Parliament, the debt to which this fund was applicable, would not, fhould the war continue ten years, be difcharged in lets than fifty-five years. The Hun. Gentleman era. preffed his confidence in the difpolition of Mu - lifters to ufe every predicable economy, and that no effort would be left untried, to keep the expences within the eftimare hated by ti e Noble Lord. Adverting to the paradox of a national bankruptcy refulting from the difcharge of the national debt, he thought the apprehenfion chimerical,and deprecated the idea, under any loch apprehenlion, rf withdrawing the Sinking Fund from the object for which it was origi nally intlituted. The Hon. Gentleman fuggetled for confederation, that it, in the courfe of the fums men tioned in the new fyflem, larger Supplementary Loans fhould become neceffery, than the Noble Lord had in view, a certain proportion of the percentage fet apart for the War Loans, might be appropriated to form a fund for the liquidation of fuch increafed Supplementary Loans—for he taw no reaPin why thefe War Loans Ihould be paid off fo much fooner than Loans of any other defcription. The delay in their payment weitild be pia/due - five of no material inconvenience, and the approbation he recommended would lead to prefent relief. In reviewing the leveret War Taxes, and confidering which it would be molt expedient to continue if neceffary, in the event of peace, he was decidedly of opinion that the Pro perty Tax, which the Noble Lord profeffed his with to repeal, was, of all others, the molt eligible to continue. For this tax, with certain modifications, including a more equitable diftribution, an advance if requifite upon perfons of large fortunes, an ex emption altogether of (mall revenues in the reduelions of charge, under certain circumliances, (truck him to be the 'raft exceptionable tax that could be devil*. ed. He was the more inclined to this opinion becaufe he always preferred direct taxes to thole circuitnufly levied, being firmly perfuaded that they were lets oppretlive to the tubjeet arid more produdive to the revenue. The Hon. Member, an the whole, preferred the fyliem propofed by the Noble • Lord to any that had been mentioned, for although he law tome dif. ficulties in the former, be thought the latter calcu lated to create much treater. Mr. JOHNSTONE, in explanation, Rated that he meant only to have the interell on the part of the eleven millions which he had mentioned, provided for lout of the fonts applied in new p urc h a f es b y the Corn I zniffioners for t co.:mina! the nuhlia diao