Star. — London, England, 1816-04-02 00:00:00

• • • . , j " . e`t . " , typlications of the Petitioner to the Admiralty ; and prayed that the Hiluse would give an opportudity of . ascertaining the merits of the invention. On the motion that the Petition do lie on the table-- • .Irir G. HOPE declared, in' defence of the Admi ralty,"ihrit they would be molt happy to receive any proposition calciilaied to secure the advantages which Captalk.Latham claimed its belonging to his inven-, • tion, aiw3 that the only reason which had induced them to reject Captain Latham's application, was their persuasion that his invention would not answer the purpose. I Mr. BARHAM said. that in consequence of Cap tain L I thAnt's having told him about tout- years ago that the Admiralty had turned a deaf ear to Iris noplications, he-had advised him to apply to the irct of Agriculture. He (Mr. Barham) had been present ulieri some experiments had been made, Viich proved very satistactory to all by whom they were witnessed. Captain Latham, by the process which hi used, bad rmttlered a piece of sap oak stronger than a similar piece of heart of 'oak ; and another piece having been cut in two, Captain La tham had made thebalt which underwent his process, capable of 'beating twice the weight of the other part. Atttr a few further word* from Mr. Form, urging the great n itinnal import ince of the inven tion, the Petition'avas oriereul to lie on the table. NAVY ESTIMATES. The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply— ar G. WARRENDER moved that a sum not exceeding r 1.3,864. 12s. Sl. he granted t 6 his Ma jesty for the expenses of the Navy Pay Office for the present year. Mr. BEN NET, after complimenting the ability of the present fielder of the office of the Treasurer of the Navy, whose salary was iettette observed, that the duties, which he understood could be performed by the appropriation of a single hour in the day, °tight not to receive so large a remuneration, the more especially in the existing distresses of the coup ' tel. He proposed that the salary should be reduced to £2OOO ; and therefore moved as an amendment, that instead of £43,864. 12s. 6d. the sum of £11,864 12s. 61 be granted to his Majesty, fur the expenses of the Navy Pay Office for the year. Mr. ROSE thanked' the Honourable Gentleman for the manner in which he had brought torweid his proposition,. but peremptorily denied that the office of treasurer of the Navy was one deo little laboue as it had been described to be. Nor was it one of those offices, the salary of which had been lately aug mented. At the Revolution the salary was axed at 82000 a year, but then great advantages were de rived. by the holder of the effice, from having large sums of the public moeey in Ins hands. When those SUMS Were taken out of the hands of the Treasurer of the Navy, £2OOO was added 'to his salary as a corn pensation. He had no dispnsitirm to cling to his office, or to the sal try attached to it, and to the de termination of the Cernmittee, whatever it might be, he would submit without a murmur; but he con fessed, that und,r all the circumstances of the case, he could see no reason for the selection of this particular diem as an Object of exclusive reduction. • Mr. BENNE r expressed his intention not to eters fine his privosition for a reduction of enieluments to the office et toe Treasurer of the Navy, but to ex tend it to many other civil offices of the State. The ChANCELLOR of its: EXCHEQUER manteti ed, that the exiting sal .ry of the Treasurer of the N.tvy, was by no mea n s too great a .11'01111tlefit• tioe for the impi.rtant duties pert 'Tined by that officer. Mr. PRES TON entered at considerable length into a statement of the ;seises of the distressed state of public Altars, and a comparison of the mash. which would proceed from measures calculated to produce high prices, and measures calculated to coutiaue low . prices in the country. Mr. MOR LAND argued against the reduction of the salary N die 'office in question. Admiral MARKHAM adverted to some inconve niencies endured by seamen, who, on inquiring at the Navy Pey (Nice fur piste money, were reteired to *ten wich. Mr. ROSE expressed his conviction that the Hon. Adteiret bad been misinformed on this subject. Sir G. 1101'E opposed the motion tor reducing the salary of an old, meritorious, and public spirited officer, who had spent lie whole life iu the service 01 his country. Mr. ['RESTON repeated his former statement. Mr. M. W. MLLE Y thotieht, in the present state of the cautery. retry possible reduction should be made; and though the sum which might be saved on one vent of the estimates would be but small, yet Where there were anany items it might he considerable. Sit G. WARRENDER observed, that any in.l mast which appeared did not proceed from any aug., nsentatioa of the numbers of the Clerks, but from the scale of salaries, to which some of them bad risen it; consequence of increased length of servitude. Mr. BARING asked whether there bad been any augmentation tit the number of Clerks in the Navy Pay OfEce ? Mr. G. ROSE replied in the negative. He also, added, that be had rather endeavoured to reduce than increase them. He had omitted to fill up one vacancy which occurred whine the • clerk had 8500 a yew, l th.eigh he (Mr. R.) might have done so. Mr. BAR.CLAV contended, that from the general distress of the country, every possible saving which could be made to the public should be attended to. Mr. ItOS.E jusutied any increase which had been made to the clerks in the Navy Pay Office, on the grossed of their length of service, and observed, that the most of them had commenced with very small salaries, some of them at ‘7B ) , and were a long time ee•ployed byline it rose to any Otitis considerable.— s ee e ul them at bad large salaries were obliged to give security to a very considerable amount. Mr. 13A RING observed, that on looking over the estimates. he saw no salaries so low - as that which the • Ri g ht Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Rose) had stated. Mr. ROSE fee/ Circl e that what he had slated was correct. Mr. MA RRYATT opposed the amendment. He thought it better not iu reduce the salaries of old me ritorious public servants, but to leave them to the discrete n or the Ministers ut the Crown. Mr. THOMPSON would n t wit that the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Rose) was overpaid for Ids services, but be thought that no scason why he (Mr. kose),shotdd not, m ansideration of die Xis. tress of the country, come-forward himself and pto pose a redacting of at least ‘1000—(llear, Ittar)—. He thought if -the Right Hon: Member did this. it would do him great hon'nr in the decline of his life, by setting sn vrtd an example—(Hroi, hear.) Mr. G. ROSE th inked the last Speaker for his suggestion, and observed, ihat he had on a fornrler occasion relinqeished a salary of £lOOO a year, but that since then he foiind no perion had profited of that esample--( NNW, and a laugh.) Mr. BA-BINGTON bore testimony the merito. Timis *unions of the Treasurer of the Navy (Mr. Rase) Ant only in his own particular department, but in others not immediately connected with it. BUt viewing the situation of that Right Hon. Gentleman in the abstract, and comparing it with others, he (Mr. B ibington) thought the salary attached to it might be reduced. After a few words from Mr. Long, and from Mr. Dabiugton, in explanation, Mr. ROBINSON observed, that the question be fore the H.+4,be wds wit one of personal consideia don, but whether a salary, which had been increased' to its present amount a long time back, should now be reduced ? Gentlemen, in looking at the salary enjoyed by the Treasurer of the N.tvy, should also consider the important duties which were discharged by that officer. and the great public trust which must necesprily be *posed in him. He (the Treasurer of the Navy) could not dispose of his fortune, so great was the security required from him, until he had got his quidurfriinr the auditors of his accounts. Mr. PRESTON observed, that most receivers of the Crown were in the practice of selling out their landed property before they came to such a situation. Mr. BANKES did not think the present times so had as that it would be necessary to reduce the sala ries of offices, which bad been raised to their present ine , nre many Yeats back, The office of 'lreasiiier 'of the Navy was one of these. It had been held at its present sal try for thirty years, and no complaint had been made against it. He did not think, there fore, that the present time was the proper one for re ducing the salary. Mr. BENNET said, the question before the House was not, whether the salaries of the Clerks were or were not too great, but whether the salary of the Treasurer of the Navy should in continued at £2OOO or 41000 a year MriMA R It YATT observed, that the present was not:the proper time for the reduction of the salaries attached to offices which had been held so long at their present amount. Mr. FINLAY opposed the Amendment. The Committee then divided, when there appeared for the Amendment 21. Against it 66—Majority 45. On our re-admission to the Gallery, we found Captain PELLEIV complaining of the great hard ship; to which seamen on board his Majesty's ships were exposed by not being allowed to dra w their pay, or a certain portion of it, while on foreign stations. Many of them, he observed, were six or eight years on those stations, doting which time they were obli ged, when in want of money, to purchase various ar ticles-on account Jean) the Purser of the ship, and sell them again at less than a fourth ; , 1 what they were charged for them. He had heard of one man who had served fifteen years abroad, and who, whets he returned home had only three years pay coming to him, in consequence of having been obliged. when in want of nic.ney, to adopt that resource to which he (Captain IkIlew) had just alluded (Naar, hear, h:ar.) Iles was a hardship so severely kit. that it was Vim reason why many men, otherwise disposed to serve, were unwilling to enter the Navy. The plan which lie (Captain Pellew) should sug s eat ‘ to remedy this, seas, that a Pay Cieek should be appointed to the-se veral foreign stations, who. with the assistanceof the ship's Purser and Clerk, should advance to the sea men three months' pay twice a-year, leaving the pay of the other six months until they retwned home.— ..rite present time was one when, in his opinion, it was incumbent on the Admiralty to attend to regu lations s milar to this ; and in this instance he concei ved lie had made ens a prima facie case, which neither Moses nor the Prophets couid controvert.—(Mark hlughing.) He did not briag this subject Inward as a questioti at politics ; he kiad always hitherto till'e• ported his Majesty's Ministers, and never Ira.f the mis fortune to dilier from them. When he first went out to India, he-found several ships which had been ten years thee. The first thing done by Lord Es. mouth WAS to send them home, and to reduce the period of remaining on that station from tea to five years. Sit GEORGE ROPE stated, that so far from r their being any reluctance on the parr of the seamen to serve on foreign vations, the whole of the ships destined for India, tie Meiiterranean, the Brazils, and the West Indies, with one or two exceptions, bad been sent Ea bome time ago. The circumstance of, receiving three, four, or rive years pay at once, on their return, was an inducement with the men to serve abroad. He was at a hiss to conceive, as only a cer tain proportion of a :'!amatt's pay could be taken up in slops, how he cot 1:1 take up in that way 12 years! pay* out of 15. Captain PELLEW stated two instances of ships destined for foreign stations, and remaining several months in port from want of their full complement.. He repeated his disbelief of seamen going willingly to serve on foreign bunions ; and Stated that he had. when serving in the East Indies, kind it inipmcti. cable to prevent the men from selling their slops to purchase soap and other necessaries. Sir GEORGE HOPE said, no attempt was ever made to avid men to one ship more than another.— They had indeed particular rendezvouses—(He ar) t o ut no man was ever sent down to any ship against' Ws will. Mr. FORBES hoped his gallant Friend (Captain •ellew) would be followed by other officers' in that House. The greatest complaints were made by Na val serving abroad, on acemmt.of 'not recei ving their pay. He had witnetsed but too much of the distresses to which this reduced them, and he bad had it in his power to afford relief tq some.— From the Commander in Chief downwards, all re gretted how extremely hard it was for them that no measure should be adopted for pitying the mess on foreign nations. He had been told by a gallant Of ficer, within these last twenty-four hours, thatius had been under the necessity of flogging his men forgo- Liug int shore and selling their clothes for want of re ceiving an, part of their pay. He was sorry to lad 80 • Wetly Gentlemen affected 'with a cold; but-this would not deter him from bringing the present sub ject forward night after night, when he could do se by the rules of the Howe, till some remedy was af forded to the grievances of the Navy. Those of Majesty'e Ministers connected with the Admiralty might as well tell him that black was white, as that the naval service was satisfied; they were not satis fied, and had no cause to be satisfied. It was in v.,:n to tell the House that the two services were on the same looting. He had no doubt the suggestions on that subject, delivered, in the House, had done much good, and they would still do more. Officers had cense to his house in India, with their toes almost out of their shoes, offering bills for sale; they used to pay 20, 25, and even :So per cent. discount. He took same at a fair exchange ; the consequence was, that bills came pouring in nu him from all quarters; he was, however, obliged to decline receiving any more, from the difficulties expeticnced' by his agents in this countrytin obtaining payment. Captain WA LD EG RA VE bore testimony to the truth of the observations of a gallant officer, (Captain Pellew).—ln 0105, when he returned from India, there was a man in his ship who had aC2OUO of pay due to him. Sir GEORGE HOPE explained. Mr. ROSE said, the gallant Captain (Pellew), who knew so well how many clerks could be spared from the Navy Office, into which he never probably had put his foot, would be also able to tell him how many clerks would suffice for paying the Navy on foreign stations. If this matter could ever be ac complished, it must be by having Paymasters abroad, and regular establishments. He admitted the hard ship which now existed, and the great convenience which would result from the adoption of a different syttem, if practicable ; but the subject required more consideration than could now be given to it. He had bestowed a good deal of consideration on it, but he had always lotind so many difficulties in the way, that he was obliged to give it up—but he did. sot mean to say a remedy was impracticable. Captain PELLEW appealed to the statement of the Secretary of the Admiralty that a considerable reduction would take. place in the course of another year. He hoped that the Lords of the Admiralty, now that they had so little to do, would apply them selves to find out some remedy for what the Right Honourable Gentleman (!sir. Rose), admitted to be a hardship, though the gallant Admiral (Hope) had declared himself of a different opinion. Admiral MARKHAM saw no reason why'the offi cers of the, Navy shouli not be put on the same foot ing with the Officers of the Army. All the Officers of the Army received their full pay when they hip petted to be serving abroad. He knew a cart of a Lieutenant serving in the Mediterranean, who, for £22 of pay, got only between £l4 and Fl 5. Mr. CROKER said, the exchange was now fa vourable to officers serving on Foreign stations. In 1810 he I:ad occasion to know that n considerable loss from exchangeswas experienced by officers serving in the Mediterranean and in the Tagus ; but the ex changes generally were rather favourable than unfa veurable to officers abroad. Mr. JOHN SMITH expressed his disbelief of the accuracy of the Honourable Gentleman's state ment with respect to the exchanges. CROkER said he had a paper bound up with the estimates, stating the rates of Exchange on Offi cers' Bills. In 1810 exchanges were favourable for them at Barbados,. the Leeward Islands, Jamaica, Madeira, and the Cape of _Good Hope; at par at Malta, Rio Janeiro, and Bombay; and unfavourable only at Gibraltar, Halifax, and the Tagus. Mr. BARING kit convinced that the Honourable Secretary was totally mistaken, because on this sub ject either the Officers must have been able to draw as no merchants did, or drawn with a loss.— The exchange depending now on peace and war, the moment of any great extent of service was precisely that when the Officer would he subjected to hardship. A proper sum ought to be fixed for him secure from any depreciation. Mr. FORBES said, the favourable state of the exchange widl India in 1810, was owing to a trick practised on their creditors by the East India Com. Many. Mr. C. W. lA'YNN observed /217j-1. for Messen gers. Porters, &c. in the Navy °rhea. He was wil ling to admit the difficulty of any Clerk supporting the appearance of a Gentleman on the small balm iest but nothing could be an galling to them as to see Messengers. who could only be considered on a par with domestic servants, rated at £`249 a-year. Mr. ROSE said, no Messenger to the Navy Office had- such x sum. Mr. WYNN had only looked to the sum tot•:1i but in other offices F 240 was given. Mr. ROSE :clamed, that the highest salary to any Messenger in his otfice was not above £l2O a-year. Mr. CROKER said, the two head Messengers in the Admiralty had a great responsibility—they had the care of all the boots. Mr. BROUGHAM wished to have some farther explanation respecting the Foreign Exchanges.— During the last four or five years, it had been agaii. and again stated that the Exchange was against this country; but notwithstanding all that had been stated again and again in the Report of the Bullion Committee, and the debates to which it gave rise, and notwithstanding the entries in the journals of the House, were they now to understand, that all the while they had been under a delusion, in supposing that the Exchanges were unfavourable, with the ex cepliou of only five or six weeks—and that in 1810, when they were supposed most unfavourable, this was only the case at two or three parts ? He wished to know whether he would pledge himself tor the , accuracy of this itatement ? Captain HAMILTON bore testimony to a loss suffered by Officers in the Mediterranean, in 1809 and 1810. from 20 to 25 per cent . . • Mr. CROKEit said he knew nothing o f th e subject of Exchanges individually ; he had already stated the source from which his information wa.. derived. Mr. C. YORKE allowed that the loss which the Mears of the Navy had incurred by the state of the Exchange, had been felt as a great gtievance at'par titular. times, and when such a state of things return ed, it would be proper to bring forward same measure for their relief; but at this mouton the change *total rather be a loss than a tenefit to the NA?y. Mt. BARING wisl.ed to Icaow what was the. actual state of the Etchange wit!'lta is 1810 ? Mr. CROKER said, at that time the N ; 67 or GS pence fer the dollar Mr. BARING *lid, the vahie of Ole only 54 pence, so that tho ()like's of the N 13d. more than its value at par fur each ( 1 / 4 11 is to say, they were 1 , sers at tLc ra.e of 25 He wished the House to kre.,w Rh It the been. The Admiralty had I:atura,lvi,„.„ on the subject, and bolo natures ignor. Navy Officers had suffcreci a redaction o f m u on their pay. He allowed tha! this •r. a , rOt Ole te k to do any thing, as the Navy now gained ol the rat e of exchange. The CHANCELLOR. of the MZCP.T.:(;z:E L . said, the difference between the trmJe I p. , ‘111 14 di; Army and Navy, had arisen from the usage of paying the Navy at home er.ly. ;. year 1795 as arrangement Was mai:, by whi c i ; Officers were allowed to draw their pay w4ile jl f o . reign stations; but it was always drattil 1,013 1 which were due at the Navy Pay in C., tim only : they had therefore the advat!ta re anj vantage of negotiating them. The when acting abroad, had its own, l'aynhsters.:tad:ed to it, and it was from these circimwan:es, anti from DO preference of ooe rerv•ce to tr:e ether, th at to e Navy had at dims suffnei Mr. BARING said, that in ordistsry tim e' , en arrangement was p, good one, and was a moo the favour of if - a: Ni•vy as against it ; the terse,.,i .rose when trick, were played with the cunency; tie variations which then ensut:d ticcasi great hod. ships to the Navy, for to say that the Officers stro l l not receive their pay but at home, wa s o f ten to de. prive them of the benteit of their pay. Mr. CROKER said he sh.uld, when the Ho me !vitiated, move for au account the rate of E st . change at which the Bills drawn by the Navy been nerd eted for a series nt years p.tst. Mr. LY TTELTON bore testimony that the rate of exchange had occasioned great loss to the 01ficen of the Nav y, and had been felt as a hardship by Com He had himself been on stations in the Mednerra. nean, where the loss was 25 per cent. Atiollt a ye.,e after the time referred to by the Honourable Sem. t .ry (Mr. Croker), a motion had been made on this subject by Captain Bennet, who was not now a Men. her of the House, and the same.defetice wit set up for the practice which was now made. Captain lien. net had been then atithos:zed by the °dicers of the Navy to say, that they were very as illing to give 11, any advantage which might arise from the state ti the exchange at any future time, and receive that pay at par. (Hear, hear.) The antiquity of tia practice did not all2viate the grievance. Mr. J. P. GRANT said lie was glad the Harlon. rable Secretary intended to move for the papers, Lc if they proved the correctoesl of his statenrmt as to the difference of the. ereliange at Malia and Cs.hial. tar, they would inde.ed turpri:e on political economy. Mr. BARHAM said, that from his connee.i'l telt') the Island of Antigua, he had opportunien (1 knowing that ti.e erchanze had been unfavcure,le t) tl:at island, to the .mount of from 8 to 15 per cert. for the last eight or ten years. He accp.m.d Honourable Secretary of any intention to mislead the House; but I.e had been surprised to hear such a statement as had been made. Auer a few words from Lord NUGENT arid Mr. CROKER, Sir J. B EST° •*;(1, that fo.meety vatiett he had been in the Wtst Indies, bills had been new , - elated to advantage; it was true it had not be:n:.o of late years ; (a laugli) he hoped, however, the er. change would get tound. He had never heeds seaman express a wish to be paid while abroad ; they wire satisfied with being able to make remittatxtr. Indiscreet propositions made in that House by yqu:lt Otfizers and young Menibets, without taking any ad. vice, did great injury, by excitifg discontent on sus. jects which had pryer before been complained of. Captain wished to reptl the ch.nye that he had taken no advice on 11:e subject whlc3 he had spoken fit. Ti:e gallant Admiral VI I. I.).e.e,ford) who !IPA accif:ed him, was rut iftie those %vision be should hay , chosen to e9nsslt,' be: that gallant Admi!ral itad spokel to hilts on the 5.‘.1,. jec, an he !tad inform d'hini of hip intention. He had consulted many Naval Of on the c.hjee, amid except the two Gentlemen who hid sprlte:i that House, he had not found any who had differed Iron him. Sir J. BER ESFO RD said, he had spoken to t!'e - gallant OtEeer on the subject alluded to, 4nd he (Cart. Pellew) bad th n said. that Iv! nob*. He had as:ed him why he had not co salted the A.'• it irllty•—(Cries of &or, from the Oepusition side). for that would be the surest way of serving theNav, (Hear, hear.) And it the Admiralty the measure, be might then appiy to the limar Commons. Captain PELLEW begged to disclaim some of the . had &ijectes; declerati"ns imputed to bun. He had s ;it tkst t.e Oat, not applied to the Admiralty ; but as o, his not consulted Naval Odicers he had never baiti thing oh the kind. Admiral MARKHAM leas surpiiied at the lar• guage of his Honourable Friend (Sir J. Berestan4 It Was surely competent to any Member of the Howl young or old, to submit a proposition withca: wy suiting the Admiralty. • S r J. BER.EBI - 0 aD explained. ?jr. WOR I'LEY conceieed the army ant nsvf should be put on the sa inefooting as tothe receipt of pea. Mr. LYTTLETON said, that the Hon. Secret.'/ had stated that in 1810 the exchange Was at pa st Malta, or nearly so. He ( Mt. Lyttletoo) kne'v front personal experience that the exchange was wen such, that officers lost neatly 30 pet cent. in drawing 0 0 this country. General FERGUSON said, that however mach the nation owed to the army, it owed still more to t!:e navy. To say that the navy would gain at tims the state of the exchange, was nugatory; for the erg time when the exchange was in favour of Eoglansl was in time of peace. Lord CASTLEREAGH said that an arrange. naent might be made to enable the navy to receive their pay in the same manner as the army; but it would be attended with difficulty, as the navy bade() paymasters abroad. Mr. FINLAY said, the statement whick bad been read by tl;c ilenourable Secrctary was such ai the fat? 71ilar i ivy iv , li.r, oi t per c act It ignord: