Star. — London, England, 1811-03-12 00:00:00

• . , • .- . - „ D ir e, . 44 , accommodations. Tn the Year 1793 the* was a ge. rich ; And helm' eo p reikd o e. hotie.thot the eittsrabt tor should divide With Min. IF any man read na tal fall in the price of goods. It was not, as in to the Spanish and Phrtuguese colonies Would becotne the Report, he must be struck with the loosen4of t he present instance, confined to any particular class. greater and be attended •witlota • largey pr from . its assertions ;it merely asserted, that loss arose ram Then all articles were affected by it, and from this their going directly from thiocountry. Subset:woody, Aver-troding, and that benefit would be derive by circumstance_ arose the cause of the shortness of its' instead of the six millions lent there', twelve mitlioas living Money to assist the lasers. He approved of duration. In 1793, the causes of the present stagna- had been sent. He had tin conception that any loose , the feelings of the Honourable Baronet opposite, but tion were not thought of ;no o over-trade," no glut statement of his could be the cause of this, and' he was of opinion, that , though perfectly proper in him, was then complained of, but the difficulties of that would ask if it was likely that any merchant would it would not be proper in the House of Commons to oiv arose merely from the circumstances which engage in a great and expensive speculation on Ouch indulge them; besides, if the. general principle of lie.had already stated. The Right Honourable Gen. grounds alone ? With respect to what hod been said sash applicotions were established, a pretence would demon then took a view of the state of the circula- o f our c olonies being a burden to the country under never be for urging them. It appeared to bint tin medium in 1797 and I1;05. In the latter year existing circumstances, he would ask if the Right HO- that there were three sorts of - speculators who might , heese of the Bank amounted to but 17 millicns ; nourable Gentleman recollected, that our colonies etin ' meet with cimsiderable difficulty i two of thern being at t present day they were increased to 23 millions. ployed one-fourth of our navy, one-third of our ,sea- advantageous to the public in general might be favour- Then discount could not he obtained on the best se- men, and contributed five or six millions annually to ably considered, he meant those who exposted corn curities, and nobody could be found by whom it was the revenue ? After some further remarks, the Right modities from this country, and those who imported wanted. At present the Bank, far from confining Hon. Gentleman concluded a very able speech, ex-. into it the raw materials from others ; such specula itselt to assisting the commercial world, had purcha- pressing his conviction, that the Resolution would be tors, though they might overtrade a little, might be sed Goverr.ment securities to a considerable amount. adopted, and that it would be found the Commis- forgiven. But the third sort to which he alluded, hie wished the report had been more expliciol. In the sioners appointed discharged their duty in a satisfac. were those who speculated upon articles already in 1 • _ . report of 1793, and in the report which appeared tory manners the country, who sought no other object than to put with the names of Mr. Thornton, Mr. Chiswell, &c. Mr. HUSIUSSON and Mr. ROSE several', ex- money in the pocket of the and the monopolist. undertakers of h ouses could any accommodation on bills be obtain- I Mr. H. THORNTON had felt averse to the plan when they failed in consequence, ought to be permit ed.—ln that year, however, he remembered there 1 at first, but when he heard of the distress it was in- ted to perish unnoticed. The evidence too upon which was hardly one house of those which stopped payment • tended to alleviate, he could not refuse it his assent. • they were to decide was the evidence of interested per which did not afterwards pay in full, possessing more , in 1793 the distress was more general than at pre- • sons, and the fair inference to be drawn from that than the amount of all the claims made on the con- sent. Then failures had taken place in almost all the , c ir c umstance was, that the evidence was necessarily cern. The witness examin ed had stated the manu- ' principal towns, which was not the, case at present. . exaggerated. It had been represented as invidious facturers who had capitals to be the persons who felt The Hon. Gentleman then took a comprehensive i to make remarks upon persons situated as the present the greatest distress. Under all the circumstances,' view of the state of things in the year 1793, and corn- `applicants were; he certainly would admit, that it the questicn was, if the remedy resorted to in 1793 pared it with the posture N . affairs at the present day. would be an invidious task to volunteer any criticism ought to be resorted to when the situation of things He hoped proper regulations would be made to make ; upon their conduct, but when they applied to Parlia was different ? The evil, he thought, might be the pion they were about to act tipon of real utility.. men they forced themselves into such a situation, and traced, not to the want of facilities for commerce, • Assistance ought sometimes to be given in particu- ~it became the duty of Members of that House to in but to the too great facilities afforded to speculation. lay i ns t an ces, a nd not on a general principle. He , vestigate and speak freely. . A Right Honourable In consequence of this, persons who formerly carried thought it the duty of the House at the pi'esent crisis i Gentleman had said, that if the pressure was inquired, on their speculations according to their means, now not to let their remedy extend beyond the necessity of , into, it would perhaps appear to be little more than give in to the wildest projects, in the hope of reali- the case. . i that persons having little credit themselves, wished zing extravagant profits. Had not persons of noto. i Mr. CURWEN was willing to make the proposed for relief from Parliament. That it might be expe riously small capitals risen on a sudden through this experiment. He thought the Committee were right dieto to grant relief in such a case be would allow ; to be merchants of the first consequence? The evils in not g iving a detailed Report, as in the present in- but if there was any prospect of effecting it by . other which now pressed heavily on the commercial world, stance it was desirable that what was done should be means,. they should not be too precipitate in their pro were not produced by fair legitimate trade,, but by done with expedition. He was far from thinking that ceedings. If no market was open to them, they would o w h o l esa le gambling." In the present posture of all the embarrassments experienced arose from the experience no permanent or substantial benefit, and the affairs, such a spirit of gambling ought not to be en- market of South America having been glutted. He public might stiffer deeply. Another objection was, vltag es'. He wished to ask under what restrictions knew it to be M a great measure owing to our having the extreme inequality of the measure. He knew it the relief was to be extended ! He was apprehensive no demands front America (the United States). The was not easy to avoid this, but still he could hot help, lest instead of being what he could wish it to be, a Resolution they were about to pass might afford tern- thinking that it was hard in times like these, to wait ' salutary relief to the distressed manufacturers and the porary relief, but unless the evils complained of were until a a number of respectable persons sunk under the thousands depending on them for bread, it should be removed, they would return with accumulated force. pressure, and then apply a remedy which others would prOductive of serious evils, and tend to raise the prices He hoped • the Right Hon. Gentleman would now have the benefit of. of all commodities, raising last of all those at present fairly discuss the merits of the Orders in Council.— Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, that the Parliamen-, most depressed, as, from. their wanting a market,' He trusted she would act impartially, regardless of tary creditor was placed upon a footing different from most necessarily be the case. Nothing could secure what his former opinions might have been. He hoped the private creditor ? and would be able to appropri the interests of the country, but the taking effectual those orders would be repealed, which were in them- ate all the effects of the debtor to the payment of his means to damp that spirit of enterprise which had . selves unwise and unjust towards America. own demands, to the total exclusion of every other fatally led to sech ruinous speculations. He wished I Sir ROBERT PEELE said, that if the cotton- *claimant. This he did not think rights-it had a ten. to know if the Chancellor of the Exchequer would I manufacturers were the only persons concerned, the dency not to correct, but to increase the evil. The not devise some means for selecting proper objects of . relief might be . withheld, perhaps without much in - ground of compla i nt was the want of a market, and relief, and for guarding against the sums advanced ' justice, but not only the cotton-manufacturers but the the effect of the measure would be to employ the ma being misapplied ? What securities would he exact landholders, and many ether classes were deeply in- nufacturers for the present, and add to that glut to guard against the money borrowed from the Con,-, terested. He could state it as a fact, that the manu- which was known to exist in the market already.— missioners belt .g made use of to purchase the new i fecturers never experienced more distress than when He dwelt for some time on the expectations 'held loan ? They had been told the bankers could rot they depended on specie. When invasion was ex- forth from the market of South America, which he makefurther advances because their capitals were . petted in this country, the conductors of the trade considered perfectly delusive-and visionary, especially locked up in bad bills ; that others were locked up in'' were not able to pay their poor manufacuthers • and as from the present divided state of that country, the South America. .The report expres sed an ex p ectation ' the House might . rest assured that the trade Of the returns were likely to be still farther protracted, and that returns for the last might be looked for in a year. country could never be carried on to its present ex- the market to be more disturbed, and impeded than Either capitals were said to be locked up in imports, tent if they were to depend on specie alone. Trade before. He cautioned the House not to expect that and thus the want of market made all parties losers. had of late years increased to three (Old what it was, the money would be soon repaid ; he doubted whe- He could not think the whole of the causes of the : and the circulating medium, if inquiry was made into ther it would afford any relief, and contended that present stagnation of trade was from South America I the subject, would be found not to have exceeded its I the. Parliamentary condition should he placed upon being overstocked with British produce. Had no `due proportion. He begged pardon of the House i the same footing with the private one. losses been fek where a market was expected to be for having troubled them withis observations,- but I Mr. MANNING thought the difficulty of so seri found, and the goods sent out were seized and confis. ;he felt it impossible to permit he ' question to pass ous a nature, that they were bound to do all they cated? The plan submitted to the House would do i without expressing his gratitude for the intended re- I could to remove it. He agreed with the Hon. Baro good, more or lees, as it was confined to those classes i lief, not that it would affect him or his family in I net (Sir J. Newport) as to the propriety of equalising whom they ought to feel anxio us to relieve. When 4 the slightest degree, bat because he could not sup- the condition of Parliamentary and private creditors, a Bill was brought in on the subject, he hoped parti- press a fellow-feeling for those who, though now and thought that though the relief might not prove to M cular attention would be paid t o the claims of the suf- so differently situated, had once assisted him in rais- be sufficienHlTßßEADt. it was but righo.make would not say tied to the aid of Parliament. Mr. ALEXANDER BARING expressed a hope Ise was courageous enough to resist the vote at p re- ' Mr. ROSE was of opinion with his Right Hon. , that both questions would undergo a strict discussion sent, but he was anxious to be distinctly Underwood Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), that if the at some future period. With respect to the first, the as not intending to pledge himself so far as to prevent plan afforded a chance of relieving the distresses of : cause from which the misfortune arose, was undouht- his retracting, if at a future stage his conviction told the commercial world while there was no probability ; edly influenced in a material degree by the political him that it would be right. Of all those who had of its doing injury, that was a su ffi cient ground for I measures ; the great Cause of the evil was the want* spoken not one had expressed a sanguine notion of the it s b e ing adopted. A great part of what had been lof a markit. As long as a single port was given to success of the measure. The Right Hon. Gentleman stated by his Right Hon. Friend with respect to the, us, that purpose was answered, but - they were all (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) bad declined an situation of things in 1793, was stated to the Com. I closed.at present, and here was the foundation of the swering a question which had been put to him ble mince, yet with all that before their eyes they gave I pressure which they were now called on to remedy. other day, as to wheer he was prevailed upon by th e a dvice on which his Right Hon. F riend now i With re g ard to the speculations themselves, they were importunity to accede c hat to the measure, or was co nver. acted. The circumstances the Right Hon. Gentleman perhaps rightly described by a Right Honourable ted to it ? If he might judge from the speech of the (Mr. Huskisson) had stated, respecting the Bank, , Gentleman, who said, that they proceeded from that . Honourable Gentleman to-night, it appeared, that he were, lie thought, of a very encouraging nature ; but !sort of greediness which sought to exclude all others I was no convert, but was persuaded by imp( rtunity. the Bank only discounted for sixty days, and that , i from the same advantage; but there was one conse- The Hon. Baronet had spoken with great feeling, woilli not answer the purpose of the met chant like ; quence of the present system which they would do but the question was not whether they should yield' rschequer Bills for nine or twelve months. He (Mr.: well to look to, if America coidd not trade with us, to feeling, but whether the grant of six millions was Huskisson) had said, that in 1793 the whole of the' she must proceed to monnlacture for herself (a thing 4 likely to be of advantage to the operative Manufstc hoeses that had stopped payment, in the end proved ! if possible to be avoided), so that the political ques- " turer most loose and ? He chaillracteriseestedd the Report was lan as o id e of t he soar:mat. In this instance his memory di ff ered from that I tion was in reality involved in a very great degree.— dig that before of the Right Hon. Gentleman, as, so far from that The question to consider was, whether a temporary the House, and selected some parts from Mr. Gar. loOng the fact, he-remembered that more than half . provision should be made in the present instance ? a den's evidence to prove an inconsistency in his state of Omni were ultimately bankrupts. In the town of : proposition to.which he was inclined to give his as- ments. He charged the Committee with not atten- Bristol only, there were six, some of whom did not ! sent, as he thought it hut proper that whatever ar- ding sufficiently to the Resolutions of the Deputation, p:a most than ss. in the pound. The Benk, its lend- rangements Ministers might have made with . the met.- and remindelthe House that he had originally object- i lug money to speculators, did but as any private ; chants, should be carried into effect. The expedient, ed to the formation of tbeCommittee, upon the ground Centlstio,n would do, advancing stoney at 5 per cent. i however, did not appear to him to give what they that it was likely to have too large a portion of f e eling. on a mortgage. The gamblers had felt the effects I wanted ; what they wanted was a market. He warn- He wished that the Report upon the other Exchequer of their misconduct, and now smarted for it very se., ed the House against expecting that the money . would Bills had been received before this motion was made, verely. The merchants who had not gone out of be returned in any thing like the period understood, and alluded to the representation of the flourishing their way, it was the duty of Parliament to protect i Hi; next greao objection starlet of the Bank restric- state of trade in the King's speech oflast Session. ' frem,suffering through the bad conduct of others. ' tions ; paper ii was known already over abun- The CHANCELLQR of the EXCHEQUER His Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Huskisson) had ex- ; dant, and the operation of this measure would increase said, that he agreed in one thing with the Hon, Gen pressed a wish that the relict should be confined in ; the quantity. As a general measure, it was liable leman who had just sat down, and that was the ob a g reat measure to the suffering manufacturers. He to great objections. They should beware lest,,in at- 'nervation that the circumstance of the measure having (Mr. Rose) trusted proper objects would be relieved : tempting to relieve the manufacturers; they should been brought into the House should riot prevent him, by th e C omm i ss ioners, and that proper measures I only give cocouragement to speculators and adven- or any one, from voting against it if upon a f ur th er w ou ld be t a ken for guarding the puto:c money, as if ; tiossrs He shined not go, more generally into the view it appeared not to be beneficial. With respect tile parties.could not give good security , and prove , political question at present, as he felt it to be of auf- to the Hon. Gentleman's assertion, that he (the thew was a p r obability of its being repaid by the stir ; ticient importance to be discussed by itself. He agreed Chancellor of the Exchequer) had yielded to inspor-1 related time, it would be the duty of the Commis- 1 with the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. tunny instead of being a convert to •the measure, be stoners 'to withhold the loan. When ths•merchoots I Rose), that the cause which was stated was nut the would own dust he had not the same sanguine hope had sent their goods to America it was impossible true one, but thought that the Board of Trade, not- as in the year 1793, but still he thought that it 'ef for them to know that the market was shut, and 'withstanding every disposition to discharge its duties forded a favourable chance of relief which ought to when, i n consequence of that, the articles remained,. in the best manner, contributed greatly to increase the he tried. Although the most favourable circumstance on their h a nds, without their being able to dispose disadvantages of the merchant. Meichants were in ‘in the other case was uot in this, still there were many of them, he thought they could not come to Parlio s ' the habit of atteochog on it, to . see what was uoper- favourable circumstances in thio case which were not I raent w ith a f a irer claim. The Right Honourable most. a nd the : principle of leaving commerce entirely 'io the other. The market was not now open as it I Gentleman opposite had said, he thought what , had to itself Rosa together abandoned by its adoptioh. was then, but id 1793 there was a great fad in. the I Is 4 h ast Mr Bottoso explained. . stocks, the three , per cents. fell from near 100 down • passed in that House was the came of this evil :.he i stair-. W. smucH • said, he thought. the inconvenio tolO, which produced a. u total lossok capital 'which . (Mr. Rose)•had stated, thar.the7...exPrits tirAineric a 1' ence' of the measure so far outweighed its advintages, could not be relieved 'bye she measure. "-The Right amounted to about elestsin millions sterlinged whiat kith:. Right Honourahle s frietad had determined - non. Baronet had 4a wbit! 'would in his opinion five or six millions were , coact nled .by thesiiiii 4 ei -0 1 .4 to take the sense of the Home upon it, he (Mr; S.) obe theOpeiatiOti 'OM 486 It ttetat credit. 'lt was States of America , and the rest went to South Ame- . . . . _ . . . - true that in th e former of was unlimited, bilrit might be litnitedlow IFddifined` expedient. The effect it would Produce he theight s must be to make the friends of the party more u- dons of coming forward, unleis he could give suffi- • cient security •-a available property. Thefe were no* in the warehouses double the qnantity of articles that , wereiodged in them the year before, and these w r not merely applicable to the foreign market, butte the home one also. He differed in opinion from those` - who thought that by rsMoving the Orders in Con toil they would gives market on the Continent. It was not owing to the Orders in Council that the markets • were closed, but the Decrees of the enemy. He o tended, that the Orders in Council, so far from being objectionable, had answered the rarpose for which they were intended, by driving the Tyrant of the Continent to such an extremity as to burn all British commodities, an act by which he destroyed more of the property a hit own subjects than of the British. merchants. They had driven him to • such an act as might afford a chance of ridding the world of its op pressor. He agreed with the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Curwen) that if he found he had been wrong, it would not be undignified to change his'conduct ; but he would beg of that Hon. Gentleman to keep his mind open when he should come to the question, and be cautious of adopting it as a certainty, that the re peal of the Orders in Council was all the Americans wanted. He was glad the House was inclined to agree to the present stage, and declared his determination to change his conduct, if in the progress of the mea • sure he saw any ground for so doing. Sir JOHN NEWPORT explained. ' Mr. PONSONBY agreed that this was'not the' time to debate the Orders in Council, but said, that if there were any imprudence in talkin of our rela tions with America, that imprudence was to be found in the Chancellor of the Exchequetirimsett. ' As to the Orders in Council driving the french Emperor to burn dur goods, it was the natural . conSequencv of' one violent measure to produce another. to•iihat the Honourable Member at the head of the Board of Trade said upon the subject of our colonies, he Pir. Ponsonby) should only observe that , ha4ing millibar- • ket for it, there might he a doubt whether the addi tion of the French colonies was an advantage s. Mr.'ROSE said, that his opinion was not altered by the Right Hoe. Gentleman's , explanation colo nies were an advantage. ~ Mr. WHITBREAD said, that as he found' the House inclined to adopt the proposition submitted to them by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he certainly would not give it in the present instance his direct opposition. •He could not, however, suffer it to pass without making a few observations which seemed to him necessary on the present occasion. • The Right Hon. Gentleman, and stone of those who had sup- • ported the measure, had mentioned it .as resulting from motives of compassion. Before he could con sent to consider it in that point of view, he must tit st have shown to him what was the state of the ceto• • merce with respect to the world in general. The, question was not whether we shall agree to the reso lution, but whether we conscientiduslrlielieve that we can by these means place the manufactories iu - such a situation as to enable them to go on,. He much doubted the foundation •f that argument which placed the measure on the footing of a motive of compassion. Not knowing what the opinion of the . Committee might be; he could only say that there no vex was, in his opinion, a more loose report than this which was now before the House. Mr. Garden, la bouring under the impression of his feelings, had attri buted the present difficulties to absurd speculations; and yet he says, it wits highly probable that new spa. culations may arise to countervail them--.that they may come round in the course of twelve months, and then the capital may come round also. it seemed to him that the calculations of the Committee of Glas gow were inexplicable ; from which he inferred, that the construction of the original Report must be ipa proper. No.man could have a higher opinion tlian he himself entertained for the knowledge and experi ence of commercial men ; but by this Report it was !lay to infuse an idea of a larger f .ilure of cominerce than there ought to be. Before this matter was brought forward, he thought they should'hive enquired mere minutely into ON circumstinces ofthe case. In 1793, all that was wanted or wished for was the money, but now the Committee ought to inquire into the po litical question, and sift to the bottom what was the real cause of the present distress. Though he might on the present question give way to what he perceived • to be the feeling of the House, yet lie should not hold himself bound not to oppose the 13i11 to be brought on the present resolution, in every stage in Which he might think fit to express his disapprobation of the foundation of the measure which he thought was more likely to be productive of mischief than gond. Thu CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER agreed with the Hon. Gentleman, that the House should not agree to this resolution, if it' was likely . to be productive of more mischief than good. ~For )tit own part, he was not sanguine enough to 'believe - , that this might be equally efficacious with the ow*. rsure of 1793 ; on the contrary, he considered it to be a measure presenting. many and great difficulties . ; but there was certainly a chance, that it might be pro ductive of advantage to the commercial interests, and if there was a chance, he thought-that was*sufficient to induce Parliament to entertain the proposition It had been said, that there was no market open ; but still, though this was not the case, it was unques. tionably worth while to take the chance of a market being shortly opened. It would be recollected, that in the year 1793, the measure was productive of a very great fall in the Stocks, which' was not less than from near an hundred to seventy, and that circumstance then operated strongly on the question. There was 216 n a great difference between them:lent measure and that of 1793, with respect to the secu rity. There was then only a deposit of goock as your security ; but with respect to the present, if they can not find persons - ready to , be bound in double tin a mount, they mutt produce property to double the amount. He had only one more word to say. It was not fair or cinch(' to make any reference; or to go into the matter of the Bullion Comtnittee. in sisted that it was not the Orders of Council thitt_pre ventfd our goods from going to the Colointshti - bot that it was owing to the &at:et of the enemy ;' , 4Ad whew*, looked to this,cause„ tlOokittz effect or the enetWe.decrel k ill,r iqu ihalltave nos oon)3petin.6 k and it re - turn, the OrclerkinCoilic reply, •