Star. — London, England, 1811-02-05 00:00:00

PARLminotraßr PROCEEDINGS. . ' HO tTSE OF LORDS, FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 4. OP:titMION FOR OIVINOAN ASSENT TO THE REORNCY BILL. )l1 tar Motion of the Earl of LIVERPOOL, a message was o rt to the Commons, desiring a present conference in the Painted Cita t,ber, on a matter df high importaufe to his Majesty and the - . poem The Nee Masters in Chancery sent with the Message (Mr Ca slid Mr. Steele) havhat, returned, Mr. Coy reported that the Commons had agreed to the cdnference desired by their Lordship.. rtly afterwards, Mr. QUAIIMIL, the Deputy Usher of thr 1313 c. Rod, came to the Bar, and announced that the Columns were ready tor the conference In the Fainted Chamber. The Lords appointed to manage the conference, namely, the Lord president (Earl Camden), the Lord Privy Seal (Earl of Viegniorland), the Earl of Liverpool, the Earl of Glandore, the Bishop of Kilisla, Lord Napier, Lord Wa!singham, Lord Rolle 3rd Lord Arden, went forth. On their return soon afterwaeals, Earl CAMDEN reported mey ha d com municated to the Commons the Resolution passed on Saturday, (for issuing a Commission under the Great Seal for giving an assent in the King's name to the Regency Bill.) The Earl of MOIRA said he did not ' , lse co renew the debate, but for the purpose of protesting in the face of his country, which lie most solemnly did, against the whole proceeding—a proceed ing which hr considered to be.a deliberate violation of the law of the land, without the extenuation of any exigency, for the exi gency might have been adequately provided for without any vio lation of the law. The proceeding was not only a violation of the law, but also of all the principles of the constitution, and led to the establisbment of a precedent of the most mischievous ten. elency. Comidering it in this point of view lie felt it to be his duty to protest against it, which he did in the most solemn manner. Adjourned till to-naorrow (this day). ittafttial(A g ent, imp.) TM power of coil. ferring Peerages had , been taken from the Chief Magistrate. If the two Houses had a right to do this, their right was equally inclisputab:e to take 1 away the Prerogative of making Peace and War:l Where then would the precedent stop, and what 1 line could be drawn to the assumed Privileges of ! the two Houses ? He would say no more on the principle of the bill ; but he could not help remark- , tng, that as many persons had arrogated a superior ! claim to the title of the King's Friends, it was a strange . way of shewing their respect to the Regal Authority, to seize upon the period of its suspension and weak nes., to limit and restrict its most important functions. It appeared to him that there was much absurdity in tracing back the precedents of Henry the 6th's reign, precedents which he had carefully examined without finding any thing more than a quantity of bad Latin , and bad French. At that period of our history the Great •Seal had been passed through the hands of an infant in order to give the royal sanction to a commission for assembling Parliament, but it had never been converted before into an instrument tbr putting the Royal Authority in abeyance. (Hear, hear, hear.) Though perhaps therefore not less un constitutional, it was a proceeding that failed t 6 esta blish the perilous and alarming precedent of the pre sent day. What, however, if the country should not acquiesce in this novel and extraordinary assump tion of power ? What if their ordinances under the circumstances of their present situation should ? lit not Ministers to HOUSE OF COMMONS. be resisted by'the people : Ougi onist have considered this, and was it not their dbty to con- The SPEAKER took the Chair at four o'clock, and• a , sederthemselves yet whether there was no means of extricat after the routine business had been gone through , ing from so great a difficulty ?In his judg. Message from the Lords was received, clesit4ng a pre ment the best mode they could now adopt would be to Sen t contererice.on a matter Of high importance to his t h row out t hi s Bill, advanced as it was in its progress, Majesty and the Nation. and immediately address his Royal Highness the Prince The House immediately agreed to the conference, of Wales to assume the government of the country.— and the messengers being .called in and acquainted (Hear, hear, hear.) therewith, the following Members were appointed to . which the discussions had already extended, and of the manage the conference on the part of. the House of ability with which th ey had been conducted, but ques- Commons : tions distinct in their nature had been too much blended Air. Dundas, Sir James Shaw, Tye Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr. Renrick , together, and abundance of extraneous matter intro -7,4r. Foster, Sir W. Scott, duced. The question, however, between the proceed- Mr. Long, Mr. Rose, ing by Bill or Address had been certainly sufficiently Solicitor-General of Scotland, General Phipps, debated, and he should say no more upon that subject. Sir Peter Murray, Mr. Manners Sutton, Sir Charles Price, Mr. Wal la c e, He could not help thinking still, that those who had Mr. Leicester, The Solidtor-General. taken the lead in support of proceeding by Bill, had i but ill sustained the character of superior loyalty and Mri DUNDAS soon after appeared at the bar with attachment to the interests of the Crown. Where were a Resolution of the Lords, in which they d esired the concurrence of the Commons. The Resolution was they to look for the proofs of the Right Hon. Gentle to this purport, " That it is expedient A nd necessary man opposite (Mr. Perceval's) anxious concern and that Letters Patent under the Great Seal be issued fidelity to the King his master ? Was it in his late , for the purpose of giving an assent in the King's allusion to the character of Richard 11. as one fit to name to the Regency Bill. ' be compared and assimilated to his Majesty; of a king ; The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER the object of his subjects' abhorrence, imprisoned for ! , ttated, that in pursuance of the course en which the his weak and pernicious subserviency to his minions —with a Monarch engrossing the sincere affections House had entered, it had now become necessary t o consider the best mode of giving the Royal Sanction of the country over which be ruled, and whose re to the Bill which had passed the two Houses , an d with .tuts to the duties of his high station was the event most anxiously desired in the unanimous prayers this view he should move that the House do resolve i tself into a Committee of the whole Blame on the of his people ? The Right Hon. Gentleman indeed, State of the Nation. _ , in his zeal fir poetical quotation, had forgotten to Sir THOMAS TORTON odd, that to those Who notice: one tragedy of the illustrious bard to whom he , had thought with him through the whole progress of had referred, in which some incidents might perhaps : be found more suitable to the occasion. Had the the present measure, that it waea most extraordinary and unconstitutional eaperiiii, De apology was neces. Right Hon. Gentleman consulted the play of King sary on his part for rising to reiterate On the final Lear, he might have discovered striking examples of i stage of that proceeditighis'atrongest condemnation 'the emptiness of pretended loyalty, and the inefficacy 1 'end protest against it. • Although it might be an act of sounding professions when put fairly to th e test necessarily toflnwing a n d arising Out of the pr i n ci p les (Hear, hear.) -1-le might there have seen, by the which a majoritwf both Houses had decided to be' character and conduct of a Cordelia, that those who the best and most salutary that could be adopted, he boast the least, and make the most moderate preten yet regarded every previous measure as " trifles light ! sions, those who vow to Majesty nothing more than as air" in comparison of what it was now proposed oa is inscribed in the bond of a subject's allegiance, do, the magnitude and importance of which imposed Who love his Majesty, According to their bond • nor more, nor upon him the necessity of tiespassing once more on their ,• th hour Of real 'peril, infinitely less , to be were in e attention. If there was one maxim more clearly estab- depended on than the courtly flatterers who profess fished than another in the frame of the constitutioel it . I To love him more than words can wield the matter, was that two branches of the Legislature were not corn- 1 Dearer than eye-sight, space and liberty. petetit to make any binding provision that should have Thus much be deemed it necessary to say in vindica the effect of law. If there was any beauty in the Con- I tion of the equal loyalty and sincerity of attachment to stitution peculiarly entitled to admiration, it was the: the King felt by those who had resisted the curtailment, counteractive influence of the separate estates, and i end mutilation of his prerogatives. (Hear, hear, hear !) *note especially the salutary operation of the Royal; Whatever indeed might be the warmth o f ? the affection i Veto in repressing the occasional effervescence of a : felt by all descriptions and parties for the Monarch , be democratic, or the general pride of an aristocratic ; would say, that those who voted for an act so subver spirit. But in giving a fictitious Royal Assent to sive of its interests, were in fact enemies to the Mo an Act of the two Houses, what was it bat to make narchy. Impressed, therefore, with a sense of the fatal I use of that Assent to give validity to an ant of their , dangers that might arise in the train of its natural con own ?—(ikar, hear.) At the time, too, when in . sequences, and with the wrong dime to the Conititu arsuance of the thi rd Resolution, the ground-work don, he would exclaim "fiatputiria,ruat rebus[," and of all their proceedings, they were professing to' once more exhort the Holise to have immediate aim at the preservation of the form and principles ' recourse to an Address to the Prince of Wales. When , of the Constitution. He wished to refer also to that ' the question should be put, if no amendment should Statute which he conceived had been too seldom and be moved by any other Member, he would submit too slightly adverted to--the Act of 15th of Charles one to the House that should contain his protest 11. He was far from thinking that this Statute me. : against the' principle, and which should exhibit on rited the contempt with which it had been treated, , their Journals to after ages, that so monstrous a vio- In the discussions which had taken place. • Whether lution of the fundamental principles of the Conssitu be considered the character of the persons with whom tion had at least not passed by an unanimous vote. it originated —among whom was 'to be found a Cla- i The question was then put that the House do re rendon and others, vilso, if since equalled for patrio- solve itself into a Committee of the whole Aiouse, to tism and talents, had certainly not been surpassed—or take into consideration the State of the Nation. • if he recalled to his mind in what company this law was ' The Speaker left the Chair, and the CHA NCEL twee, when he remembered that by the same Parka- LOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that the, Reso- 0 meat freedom of debate was first secured to the House lution of the Lords be agreed to. of Commons, and that the same Parliament defined Mr. ELLIOTT observed, that he could not stiffer and improved the law respecting trials for High the present occasion to pass without declaring his so- Treason ;he was venally impressed with a high sense lemn protest againat the course proposed to them.— of the value and estimation doe to the Statute which It was his clear and decided opinion that if calami. he had alluded to. The whole spirit of the Consti. ties similar to those Which now afflicted the country tutioo was opposed to the measure before diem, and were again to recur, a plan similar to the present it was beside a violation of the plain letter of the Law. could not again be resorted to, without subverting all Both the Law and the Constitution might be quoted the barriers and securities of the Constitution. It was against it, and agaittst any other Bill, however partial, not probable that the Constitution itself would escape. local or temporary dh its nature. But when he re- (Hears, hear.) By having recourse to a mode of pro garde(' the object of that Bill, which they were then ceeding at once indecorous, dispiriting, and fallacious, considering in what meaner to auction, which not they were welting the right of the two Houses to dis ealY affected, the deepest-htterests of the country, but' pense with the. Regal Office. They were declaring absolutely cu - Hailed' and disposed of the PresOgatives their determination to bring the Throne to the feet of the Crown itself—(Flear, hear, hear,) —at that pat' of the two Houses, and erecting a new and unconsti tietilar moment when by an unhappy visitation of tutional authority in the absence and infirmity of their infirmity to the Sovereign, these Prerogatives were Sovereign. (Hear, hear.) He did not rise to trouble . kft at their mercy . i an _."d *e power of the Royal Veto the House wi th * any -arguments on the question, and %;15 totally .sti pefolecliee(Hear, hear,) —it was im- should therefore content himself with repeating hie Possible for him t o . stater such a proceeding to be disapprobation of the measure, and his intention of completed without renewing the declaration of his, nega tiving it. roost solemn protest against it. It appeared to him that ' Mr. PONSONBY said he rose not for the purpose there had been mueb irregularity in referring .. to the i of prolonging sr exciting any fresh debate. He wishea Monarch on all occasions, rather than the Monarc h y .' only to add his protest to those of the Honourable which it was their duty no less than their Interest to I Members who had spoken against the consummation guard. Neither was he inclined to. joiw In the levity' of a fraudulent fi Ctioll• It was one entire and unqua with which some had termed the proceedingaithearteer. ' Iffiest fiction, defying and trampling upon the Censti- To him it app e ar e d to Constitute apr of Alb.' [sties, and offandiPli th e WS PrlaciPla of TWO& by ... • elisertitig the existence bf a pitliset fd ere tilt Assent tn an Act designed solely to supply I incapacity. The SPEAKER rose and spoke to the ,- effect : =After theoprotesta.tiorts which had been in.- by the Hon. Baronet who spoke first that night, by the Dion. Gentleman who spoke first in the eommittee, and the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, after protestations, in his opinion ; so disparagiug and de- I rogatory to the character of their proceedings lied ! been made, he must confess, thet entertaining , the opposite views which he did on the question, he could not reconcile it to his mind to give a silent vote on this occasion. He had hitherto abstained; for many rea • sons, from any statement of his sentiments during the progress of those discussions which leid arisen upon the important and momentous duty which it had become the province of that House to discharge. I He had conceived that after the full examination and I discussion which the same question had undergone in I the year 17$8, by some of the greatest and most able men who had ever graced the councils of the country, there was little chance of his being able to suggest or to add any thing worthy of their attention. He had been desirous also of avoiding any part in the discus ! sions in which the principle of putting, in the King's name, the Great seal to an Act of the twseHouses, had been mixed with other questions that had been greatly agitated in the House respecting the greater expedi .ency of a restricted or an unrestricted Regency. There was beside another reason which had considerable weight with him, and this was a persuasion that he should best consult the duties of his office by abstaining from all frequent interference with the ordinary topics of debate. But now when an abstract question was before him;stripped of all collateral matter, and ' divested of every foreign consideration, he trusted :bete could be no impropriety in his making a few general 1 , observations on a subject of such vital importance to the interests of the country, and to the dignity and character of that House. (Hear, hear, hear!) Before, luswever, he entered upon them, he begged leave s to remark, that doubts had been expressed as to their being the legal representatives of the people. What- t ever opinions might be entertained on the advantages of improving the present for . m of representation, or of extending the elective franchise, it was a most erro r neous and mischievous declaration to describe them las not legally representing the Commons of the United Kingdom ; and he hoped he should never again hear such an assertion within those walls. It had been also doubted whether they had been legally assembled. On this point he wished to state, that although they had not been at first competent to do 1 many things, and although the commencement of the ; Session could not be dated from the period of theirl assembling, it was not a necessary conclusion that they were constitutionally prevented from executing all Parliamentary functions whatever. If unable to I do every thing, it was competent to thrill to do what ; ! it was ahsolutely necessary should be done. (Hear, hear.)— A new duty had devolved upon them, and they had been called on to fill tip a chasm. in the Con- ; stitution. He admitted that this task was momen. touse--;was hazardous, but it could not ,be declined. But here he must be permitted to inquire, was there: *no path pointed out to them in the performance of this ' 'duty by the antecedent history of the country, no guiding light to assist them in the conduct of their an. cestors ? There appeared to him to be three distinct precedents perfectly applicable, the proceedings of the -; two Houses at the poiods of the Restoration, the revo ' lution, and of 1788. The Restoration Parliament stood , surrounded with difficulties, but they scrupled not to s exercise all the functions of the supreme magistracy ; they wielded the sceptre of the monarch for the purpose of securing him the Crown. (Hear, hear.) At the Revolution, the two Houses exercised the military au thority, they maintained the civil overnment of the counay, and by these means uphe ld the Constitution till the Sovereign of their election was seated on the throne. They performed various other acts, they de clared rights, they remedied grievances, they punish ed and imprisoned Magistrates whose conduct they considered dangers** to the safety of the State, and all these acts were subsequently confirmed and in -1 'vested with the force and efficacy of law. -e- (Hear, hear.) It was true, the precedent in these respects was not acted on in 1788, but the cause of its not being then strictly followed was that no necessity existed for so doing. The necessity of the case pre scribed and limited every measure adopted under such circumstances. In his opinion, indeed, they might, with a due regard to the Constitution, have gone tur ther, and have appointed their Committees of .Privi leges ; and he begged leave to say, that this was an opinion which he was the less reluctant to avow, be cause, being conscious of no personal interest in the issue of the discussion, it sprung from the belief that' the 'measure now proposed for adoption, was one* which it was their right and duty to adopt, and which could alone enable them to execute effectually what they had declared it to be their right and duty to do. He tate deep conviction that the principles formerly stated with such eloquence and force by a Noble Lord distinguished for his integrity and talents (Lord Grenville) when lie held the office .which he (the Speaker) had then the honour unworthily to fill, were sound. were just, and truly conformable to the con stitution of the country. He was unwilling, however, to touch upon them so far as they were applied to the question of a restricted Regency—question on which it was his intention to be silent. There were twosor three cardinal points to which he conceived' their attention should be directed, and in the firsts /dace he would recal to their recollection the third Re solution of both Houses, importing that it was their right and duty to supply the interruption of the regal authority. Now it was adrpitted that a King de fare mid a King de facto had the same claim on the alle- 1 ;,eance of their subjects, and were equally entitled to 4eir respect and submission ? The case of a vacant throne was therefore essentially different, and he had sno hesitation to say, that in such a case the proceed. l ing to supply the regal office by Address was the most eligible. But the question of appointing a mited and temporary Regency differed widely from the election of a King. '1 wo of the precedents which; he had before referred tn, were not therefore appli. 4 cable to this particular view of the subject, the obe ject having been in both those cases to all the throng and the object now being to protect his Majesty in his illness, and provide in the mean time for the exer-1 vise of his authority. They were on the point of nuking a contract, to which the King, front his ill ness, could not be a patty, and it would be a plain ....mg that mous.. dirt., , ae.d which should likewise bear al close a resemblance as possible to the ordinary forms and solemnities of Parliament. Regarding then the Great Seal as the organ express. ing the Royal Authority for important national Fora poses, as the instrument by which the will and sane.. tion of the supreme power of Government was al; ways signified, he thought it highly expedient that tit* two Houses, acting for the nation at large, and on • behalf of the Sovereign, should give life and activity to that ensign of the Regal Power, and treat it as theeabedient instrument of the Chief Magistrate. He was supported by the whole mass of our history, when henraietained the doctrine, that it every period the Great Seal had been accessible to the to eiHouses; acting on extraordinary emergencies on. behalf of the King. During the illness of Hertry VI. the Great Seal was put toa commission, which commission re cited an Act of Parliament, and fit the Restoration it was put into the hands of the Earl ot. Manchester for similar purposes.—lf it was apparent that the same necessity existed now for so doing, why should they overlook or depreciate the value of such a solemnity ? --The Honourable Baronet opposite (SirT.Turton), who was followed by the Right Honourable Gentle. man (Mr. Ponsonhy) have asserted that Parliament itharred from proceeding by Dill b'y positive law, by the Act of the 11th Charles the Second -; but this late was enacted for a very different state of affairs, and can by no means be applied j to the present occasion. Goo forbid that airy thing done without a King so capable of acting, should ever become the law of the land. But the present very different situation of af fairs renders this law of Charles the Second inade quate. Another objection to the proceeding by. Bill has been started ; but before adverting to it; having already taken up so much time of the Committee, he owed to them many apologies for the attention he.had receiv4d. 'He would not indeed have trespassed lei long on.their patience, had he not conceived it to be • • his duty to the Houses,.to lay before them all the cases and precedents which bore upon the present question which consisted with his knowledge. [Here he was cheered by the House.] A Right Honoura ble Gentleman (Mr. . Ponsonby) has thought & to call the measure now submitted to the Committee, a fraud, a forgery, a fiction. For his part he wink'. say, that it the measure was unworthy of this great ' nation, he would be the first man to advise it to b* laid aside ; but he Gould not see in what respect iS was so unworthy, or how it could merit these appel lations. It was not a fiction. It was one person acting in the place of another. It is said that it as. smiles the volition of a person incapable of acting;--, but how is the case ? In the usual Cornmssit,ns, it is the King that acts, with the interventiasri of i.ii Privy Councillors. What has the Parliament .done. on the present occasion ? Parliament hits strucsc out, the Privy Council, and recorded its own. name in thst • place. It writes its own name in the body of the hi strument. 'Phis is not fiction ; and it is a Ira-version of language to call it by any such name its fiction-++ t This supposed fiction is said to have answered net other end than to delay the course of proceedings.—. But were the Regent even appointed by Address, it must be a month or more before he can proceed to • any act of Government. He must come forward for a confirmatory statute, otherwise he w0r...1d act with out any authority ; and whether or not he assented to that act, he must act in the naine of the King, who is declared incapable of acting. Gentlemen opposite say he acts in his, own name ; but he would ask them by what authority he acts ? (Hear.) This is begging the question. It ends as it began—he acts by the authority of Parliatneot. They would merely put the Regent in that objectionable situation, to do that by hifnself which was more properly the act cf Par. liament, and which rested on the authority of Parlia. anent. If the Regent should be appointed" by Ad dress, he must usurp the King's name and authority ; but were they sure that such a Regent would find the Privy Seal obedient to his commands ? A great deal of the business of the nation was, as is well known, carried on by the Sign Manual ; but would the Re gent, by Addle* venture to put the Sign Manual to any of his acts ? If lie did so, it was very probes. ble that many of those acts would be disputed in• every Court in the kingdom. In such a case the Re gent could only rest upon them for authority. They must give him their mace for a sceptre. (gear.) - ft would be smog se to compromise their authority . when they could at once give him a sword which wne irresistible—when they could at once exert a power , which could never be controve-ted. fits opinion, therefore, was, that the mode of proceeding which the House had adopted, was the most constitutional mode—that the Act by which the Prince was vested with the Regency was consistent and contemporane ous in its effect—and that it was beneficial to the Sovereign, and equally beneficial to thecountry.— (Lead e po ries i t s sa ktrßobayt felt the ) the highest respect for the authority and talents of the Right Hon. Gentleman who had jest addressed the Committee, but, in con sequence of the allusions that had been made to what had fallen from himself, be conceived hiivelf called upon to offer a few observations to.the Lommittee. It was extremely natural for the Right Mon. Gentle man, holding the situation he filled with so much ability, now that the House had decided in favour of the proceeding under consideration, should be par 'step to it, and give it his eta port. But whilst he felt the highest respect fur that Right Hon. Gentleman, he should discuss his arguments with the most perfect freedom. The Right Hon. gentleman had mistaken altogether the drift of his argument, when he sup posed that he applied the term-Action to the present part of the proceeding. He bad never said that the fiction consisted in using the King's name, as in this instance, but in Parliament - adopting the proceeding, implying the consent of the King. after lyah.Hooses had decided that he was incapable of giving such consent. The Right Hon. Gentleman had asked, if they were to proceed by address, how the authority of the Regent could be consitkred as known to the •1 country without the Act of Parliament to confirm it? Certainly it could not ; but all that Varliamcnt had to do in the first instance, was to supply the defi ciency in the Royal Authority, to make a snbstiwte for the incapable Sovereign, personally competent to ' give the Royal Assent to the Act. This ay:is ' course pursued at the Revolution. The *fiction he • fife **yid aikneitiritehi of the;r ciirt tewhitiP,* the Royal forget that they had two ends, not one s to accomplish; • is. T o him it appe.tred, that these purposes woii:u folloWinr. 1000 effectuidly secured by a simultaneous act, a pro. been niade• ceedingthAtshould be instant •nd direct, a 4 which I