Star. — London, England, 1811-03-08 00:00:00

that the sole oh}ett 4-olloonotiog was to &ono 8 ne raioa • and therefbee ad notice*** oatett.. doll* pr r- cieeengs by the - Government. - This committee was established in July ; it adjourned to October i from October it adjourtred to November, during which month it met two or three times for the purpose of draw. w. ingupthepetition, and then dissolved itself. It was true that the Lord Lieutenant might have called the law advisers of the Crown to his Council in order to as certain whether the proceedings of this meeting were strictly Isgal—hut he did not do so, for this simple r easoe—thet belch. it 'his duty not to interfere with t h e Catholics &along as they professed to be engaged merely in preparing their petitions for Parliament, and as long as what they did did not endanger the pu blic peace. So much for the C o m mittee of 1809. He was sorry to say that the Committee of 1810 had conducted itself in a very different manner. It com menced much in the same manner, by a general meeting of the Catholics, by which the Committee of 1809 was re-established, and the same resolutions were passed as those which had been agreed to in the p rece ding year. An aggregate meeting of the Ca tholics was afterwards summoned to meet on tits l t d of November. This was one of the first points to which he wished particularly to call the attention of the House. On the 2clof November, 1810, this ge neral meeting of the Catholic Body took place. There existed in it a .. great difference of opinion with respect to the propriety of presenting a petition, and a debate wascarried on with extreme violence. Several speeches were made by Mr. Keogh and others, of which he would not say' any thing ; but there was one argu ment used on the occasion by Mr. Peter Finnerty, (who was at that time in Ireland, for the purpose of collecting affidavits in justification of a libel on a Noble Lord), the tendency of which needed no com ment. The manner is which it was alleged the Eng lish nation were misled with respect to Ireland, had been previously dwelt on with great heat, and much said of the stupidity and vulgarity oftheEnglish. Mr. Finnerty, in the course of a very long speech, reasoned against the arguments of those who had been abusing the English nation, contending that it was the English Government, and not the English nation that was , celpable ; that every honest Irishman knew what were) the princiPles of the Irish Government ; and that the tnglfilf`GOO*fitniott.was just as bad as the Irish Go: venuetntt. After this Mr. Finnerty proceeded to re commend saitition.notoinly for Catholic Emancipa tion, botimco.Reforrn in-Verliament, and for a Re peal of the I.lp_ion. All this ..yrooKhave been onim. pertain fint for what followed. - The ,speech of Mr. Pniterty'violerfeeived with - the loudest applause, and rewarded IOY- an unanimotis'Vote of Thanks. Still, lumeoeraoetioas as this ifioceeding was, the Lord Lieutenant did not consider it sufficiently .serious to. require the interferenct&-cd-Government. The same Meeting,' after theorem of thanks ;to hire-Finnerty, resolved,3lust., the,Cetholic committee (that Corn. =Owe which had been tippoilited ,by the aggregate j meeting for the sole phrpose of framing the petittons to- Parliament) should have the sale Management of all Catholic -affairs I All this was very well known at the Castle, but at the same time it was felt, that though it was extremely imprudent conduct, it yet involved no dange r to the State. The Lord Lieutenant, therefore, and. those by whoth he was advised, took upon themselves thereoponsibilityoflooking over the whole transaction. —What happened afterwards ? On the Roth of No vember, the Committee roes again, Lord Fingal ie. the Chair ; and when it was proposed by Mr. _Coon man, to vote their thank* to lord Doncitighmore; Lord I'ing-al rose, and said, that although he heartily approved of the resolution, he wished to be informed whether' it was competent to the Committee to do any thing but prepare the :Catholic Petition ? The clues- tion was replied to by Istr. O'Connel, who reminded the Committee that the last General Meeting had re newed ill doubt on the subject, by their resolutions,, empowering the Comrtiittee to conduct all the Ca tholic affairs. [Mr. Pole read the proceedings of this Meeting of the Committee from The Dubfin Evesing Po4l 4 ; observing, that their debotes were re gularly reported and published in the Irish,Newspa pers.) The consequence was, that this remark of Mr. O'Connel'S according etactty with' the iertie of the Committee, Mr. Gorman's two Risolittioni Weft' put and carried unanimously. . Still the. Lord Lieu• tenant remained firm to his purpose-oa purpe* which his Honourable Friend opposite ( Mr. Grat tan) had so leiely Characterised as the most wise po licy, which 2mald• be pursued in Ireland, namely—to conciliate as long is coocitiation was possible, and to prevent as far as could, be prevented insinuations of an opposite disposition. On the. Ist of December this Committee went further—. One of the Members called their . A tlcnticm -in language do inflammatory, that he woohtapoprepeat it, to some o horrid grit*. antes," as he termed them, which a Cacho/Sr soldier had sustained; desiring them, as the guardians of the rights of she. Catholics, to take up his cause ; and proposing that a laubscription should be raised for the pitrtsiase itifiptcfleciiting the biLrots, however high their ranit,"by`'wheeettis. soldier s had been oppressed. NOw What was the.fait on which all this was founded ? -o:On 'the 14th of August, Dr. Troy wrote a letter tif the thief 'Secretary fpc 4tland, stetiog, that he onderstood i e Cathelic io4ier of the name of Spence had been ,veey unjustly aid very severely sentenced, which-sentence he bad commuted for fbreign service. The Chief Secretary test this letter to 'the °Ullman der of the Foriehowhei imMediately inotiirei into the fact.- Mulehe refiilt wee; that there was reason to be lieve thelentence was a hold utte. The whole of it was, therefore remitted . ; the - soldier wa* brought back to 13 'lond, opal discharged en ti rely from th e service.— l ,e et.Pn the Ist of December the Catholic Committee took obis. -business up, having adjourned for seven days, diseussed it agaiii, and; then determined in the most violent langoege (lenge! , iodeed, of such a nature, that be • scarcely flo u r Goeetoment wet justifiable in having refraioed. 7 rots prosecuting the, printer by whom it was published), that it should be stated to the whole people of Ireland that in COPSe•. cluenee Of the txertionsag the COl:puha*, tlyt whole of the Catholic soldie - rslad luitllusuce done them, and might now freely worship their-Maker according to their owistritnal. Tints inferring that all tenderness, kindness, atid justice, did lot proceed from the Govern-, mint, but emanated :felon the Catholic Committee; nnd holding themselves alp as the proper and exclu sive objects of the affection of the people. (11:ter. , Ater.)' Even this howevenAidoice not the indignati9a of the Lord -Lieutenterriehliblelt al be hbfffelt on a ittmec •ecatkon Vis 4 fiirliko;p4 was priferAVA. ce 1.• , „.. , . .I. _ ? . the eltpletrasett of tilette. - Ott the 2thoikloatiihae the Petitiowoveroesiridi from the Sub. Committee, was read in the Catholic Committee; and acknowe. !edged as the petition of the Catholics of Ireland ; Ithe Committee at the same time voting thanks to his.l Honourable Friend opposite, in the name and by the authority of the Catholic ' s in Ireland: After this, it was to be presumed, if the Committee were consti-. tubed solely to prepare the petition, that its labours were terminated. And here he would observe, that the violent proceedings of the Committee had alienated most of the respectable Members. Lord Ftrench. and others of a similar description, ab stained from giving their attendance- It was not against such men that any measure of Government need he taken. Never had it entered into the con templation of the Government of Ireland to take any steps against the Catholic Body, but only against an assembly which they knew to be illegal ;—and that not until a period when, he believed in his Conscience, if the measures !resorted to had not been adopted, a rebellion would have been the con sequence. (Hear, hear, hear.) Feeling that after this occurrence, the Catholic Committee had nothing 1 I to do but stmply to determine whether their petition ; rshould be conveyed by one or three individuals, the 1 Irish Government thought that as bad as the proceed ings had been, mischievous as the publication of the 1 debates of the Committee had proved, and great as was the ferment occasioned in Dublin by the presence if the Catholic Parliament (as it had been emphati. adly termed), the evil must by atul by cease; and that it was much better, if possible, to allow it to arrive I at a termination without any interference on their i Part. But the Committee did not stop here. About the middle of December, they appointed a Committee of Grievances. This Catholic Committee, originally constituted for the sole purpose of preparing a peti-1 tion to Parliament, appointed a Sub-committee to exa- i mine into all the grievances which the Catholics of 'lreland suffered, and into all the indignities and in halts to which they were in consequence liable. At One of the meetings of the Committee, a member read a letter from Doctor Troy, Archbishop of Dub )in, respecting some shocking circumstances that had occurred in consequence of alledged bigotry in the management of the Foundling Hospital of Dublin; which letter was referred to the consideration of the Committee. It would be necessary for him to explain the nature of !hit Foundling Hospital. It was an in stitution established by Act of Parliament, and receiv ing annually large Parliamentary grants. About two hundred were maintained in the Hospital itself, and about four or five thousand in the adjacent country. The Governors were among the most respectable ; pay, he might say, were the most respectable indivi- Uaials in Ireland—and there was not a public institu• • n in that country, which VIll• conducted in a way re creditable to those who had the management of )t. All children, without exception, who were brought .o this Institution; were taken in, and with each some name or label, by which it might afterwards be recog nised by those be whom it belonged. These names or labels were entered in a secret book, and the chil dren were distinguished by numbers. They were edu cated in the most exemplary manner ; and (as might be naturally supposed) were brought up as Protes- Itants, and if apprenticed, apprenticed to Protestant Masters. However, when any person, whether Catho lic or Protestant,. claimed a child, thit child was in stantly delivered to him on his stating the name or mark entered into del secret book. He had not seen Dr..Ttoy's letter, to which he alluded, but he under stood that it accused the Managers of this Institution of an endeavour to gain proselytes to Protestantism, by contriving that.no Catholic should ever recover his child, and that it narrated a shocking circumstance which had occurred in consequence of this bigntry, namely, the marriage of a brother and sister, who were ignorant of their mutual relation. This circumstance was warmly taken up by the Committee of Grievances, and a discussion took place which he would not detail. —ln the mean while, the Catholic Cbmmittee coati ' nued to meet from week to week, sometimes twice a week; they adopted, as nearly as they could, all the. I forms of the Commons ; their debates were attended 'by shoes-hand writers, and were published at length in some of the Irjt.h newspapers. About the begin ning of January, ode of the Members of the Commit tee of Grievances hated to the Catholic Committee, that theCommiwe of Grievances had nearly prepared their Report, consisting of 300 folio pages. It was proposed to print this Report, to circulate it among the Members, and throughout Ireland, and to lay a copy of it on ' the table of the House'of Commons, though how this 'last object was to be accomplished, he (Mr. Pole) professed himself at a loss to conceive. He would ask every Member of that House whether he did not think that such proceedings were calculated to cause a. great sensation in Ireland ?--(Hear, hear, hew.) — Those who were disaffe&ed became strengthened in their disaffection ; those who were loyalaregan to ima gine that the Government wanted spirit to exert itself. In fact, nothing could have justified the Lord Lieute nant, and those who had the honour to advise him, in their abstinence, but the expectation which theynatu ' rally entertained, that every meeting of the Commit 'tee would be the last. It was true, that in a debate which took place to- Wards the end of December, some symptoms ap peared of the intention of these Gentlemen to increase their number Out the Honourable and Learned Gen tleman was in an error it he conceived that that inten tioti was inknifested in the decided manner which it afterviards assumed. In December a resolution was agreed to, desiring the Secretary of the Committee to correspond with some Gentlemen in the country who • were friendly to their views, but not a word wee said about any election. Afterwards a guarded resolution. was adopted, stating that an augmentation of the number of the Committee was desirable, and that the management of that augmentation should be vested in a Sub-Committee. Still, however, not a word of the Circular Letter until the 19th of January. On the 0.3 d of January the Irish Government (became possessed of the fact, that such a letter had 'betn written by the Secretary of the Catholic Com. mittee, and that several answers had beep received 1 thereto ; but of the nature of the letter, and of the answers, they were wholly ignorant. To shew, how ever, what was the nature of the augmentation sug gested in December, he would state ( what he thought in candour the Honourable and Learned Gentleman might , lave stated) the opinion of one of the Members, who declared that when to the 36 representatives of parishes, 10 members should be added from each , • . `r - , • dbuhty, the whole i , would make a greater !lumber ! matt entatentf, that the pmeeediegt adopted by dui To he had ever seen in any aggregate meeting."-e Irish Government had produced beneficial effects s• To protieetnhowever,with thehistoryoftheCommittee. the country had remained perfectly tranquil ; , and he t it adjourned from week to week, tinder pretence of trusted that these of the Catholics who were at all mis. An-ding assiatance to Lord Fingal in the conveyance guided had returned to a sense of their duty. Being in of the Cathnlic Petition ; but at every meeting a vio.: formed that the Committee was to meet in the way that lent and inflarnmatory debate was sure to take place. yes proposed in their circiii.tr, Government resolved to He was persuaded that at that period the principal take measures for dispersing it, if possible, by mild inn- Catholics of Ireland were extremely dissatisfied with mations. Much ridicule hid beeti thrown upon the the Committee, as abusing the lenity of Government, proceedings of Alderman Darley ; but he would ask, and as injuring by the intemperance of their conduct whether any other proceedings could have been justly the cause which they were assetnhled to support. On taken under an the circumstances ? That Magistrate the 2d of February, the Committee agreed unani- returned to the Government which had sent him, and mously to a Resolutiott, that the Petition of the informed them that the meeting had declared them- Catholics of Ireland should be then transmitted to selves only a number of Catholic gentlemen assembled Parliament. On the same day another Resolution for the purpose of considering thou petition to Parlia. Was proposed, that the Committee should proceed to meet. He put the cities:ice to Lord Ffreneh, who augment their number by the appointment of ten told him, on his honour, they were no Committee, Members for each County of Ireland. This Resolu. but merely a set of gentlemen met about a Petition. tion was rejected ; but before the rejection, there was On receiving this information front tee Aiderman, he a considerable debate, in which Lord Ffrench (the had consulted with the Lord Chancellor and the At. Chairman) used the following expressions : " You torney-General for Ireland, who all said. " Lord were appointed for a specific purpose ; your mission i Ffrench is a man of honour and a gentleman, and is ended. lam sick of this business. Do you mean we will take him at his word." The magistrate was' to erect yourselves into a perpetual Parliament ?" therefore desired to return,• and inform the meeting, The Committee, however, would not acknowledge that they should not be molested. Certain lie was, that their powers had terminated ; and, instead of end- , that had the Right Honourable Gentleman himself ing the business altogether, adjourned until the 9th ' been in the same situation with the Lord Chan of February. Still the Lord Lieutenant forbore to cellor, he would have given precisely Cie same ad. interpose the authority of Government, satisfied that vice, and acted as they had done. Those who coro nae crisis of the transaction was approaching. At posed the Irish Government were not to be consie the meeting of the Committee on the 9th February, dered as drivellers and blockheads, because they took several of the Members indulged in the most violent the word of Gentlemen. He felt convinced in his own and intemperate language. One Gentleman in par. mind, that the great body of the people of Ireland, titular professed re defend Lord Fingal—one of the ! though irritated at firss by the circul re letter of Go.. most loyal of the Catholic body—a Nobleman in vernment, would ultimately applaud the measnree every way highly estimable, and whom no one could which Government had resorted to. The Right Hon. ' know without admiring. Lord Fingal had been ac. ; Gentl eman then adverted to the resolutions which were ''' cnsed of supporting the Veto and concurring in the ! entered into by the last Catholic Meeting which had U Mon. The defence was the most libellous accusation. i very latel y taken p lace in Dublin. This Meeting had He (Mr. Pole) read a paper, in which, amidst much I said before, that they had complete power over all inflammatory matter, the Speaker, in 3:wines:ion of ' i Catholic affairs. • This was their claim, and that Lord Fingal for having opposed the rebellion in which excited the jealousy of Government: But on the Ireland, observes, that " if his Lordship assumed the Ist of March, the very dayon which hr left Irelandehie livery of the oppressors, it was for the purpose of , meeting passed a resolution to this effect, " That the . interceding for, aad saving the oppressed." This object of the Committee's appointment, was to pre ! speech was to be found in the Dublin 'mina Herald, a pare a petition to Parliament." The purport of theiv.. , paper immediately under the protection of the Cabo. second resolution wes t "That the Committee bevies • lic Committee. Up to this time the Government of no ot her ob j ect in its a pp ointment, the y felt -strongly i Ireland had cherished the expectation that any inter- that their proceedings did not come tinder any thin ference on their part would be unnecessary ; but the like the Convention Act." The Meeting which passed fallacy of thzt hope began to manifest itself. He these Resolutions was not at all molested, and he was . trusted that in the tedious detail he had gone through very happy it was not. The net meeting of the Corn lie had sufficiently contradistinguished the Committee mittee was on the 2d of March; on which occasion also of 1809 and the Committee of 1810. The conduct of their Resolutions were remarkable. A Major Bryan, the latter did unquecienably occasion great uneasi- who was in the chair,said,that he had meant to propose ness and anxiety to the Government of Ireland, and a petition to the Regentfor removing theDukeof Rich. representations began to pour in trpm the loyal and mond from the Vice-regal Government; loot he nevi well-disposed in all parts of the Island, of the mis- found that such a petition could be properly proposes' , chiefs which would arise from permitting a continu- onlyat an aggregate meeting. In this, the Major was ante of such proceedings. The lenity of the Lord Lieu- perfectly right; and he ( Mr.?. )had no manner of object tenant was blamed ; and thus it appeared, that the non to such a motion. But hemustparticularlycall the conduct of the Irish Government was censured by one attention of the House to the first resolution which set of men for severity, and by another for its forbear- they had actually adopted. It was, that their peti ance. He submitted to the candour of the House tions be engrossed, and sent to Lord Donoughmore whether the Lord Lieutenant had acted towards and Mr. Grattan, for the purpose of being presented the Catholics with rigour, or whether he had taken to the two Houses of Parliament. Thus ended the any measures whatever to prevent them from ex- i labours of that Committee, at which termination he ercising the just right which they possessed of pe- for one certainly felt extremely happy (Hear, bear.) titioning Parliament, or the Regent, or his Majesty, He then begged leave shortly to advert to some els on the subject of their claims.—(He.ar, hear, hear.)— lusions that had been made to him on a formenocee. He was apprehensive that the Lord Lieutenant was sion. He understood that an Hon. Gentlemen (Mr. liable rather to the contrary imputation. It might : Whitbread) had said, that he ( Mr. Pole) seemed be so. In his conscience, however, he believed that ;on all occasions, to assume to himself all the powers his Excellency had acted right, and the advice which of the Irish Government. lie hoped that no such he felt it his duty to give the Lord Lieutenant on the i observation had fallen from the Hon. .Gentleman, and occasion, he had the satisfaction of knowing, was particularly in his absence ; ,and that the Hon. Gen• seconded by the Lord Chancellor and the Attorney- tleman had too much candour to say, that he had General of Ireland. Many had been the consulta- been guilty of any such criminal act. He wished tions of the Irish Cabinet, with respect to the pro- also to say, though in perfect good humour, that he priety of calling on the British Government for their hoped the Hon. Gentleman would not crack jokes on assistance, but the result of their deliberations had his character in his absence. He had also seen a re always been, that it was better to go as tar as the port of its having been stated in another place, that public peace would permit, without any interference the Irish Government had acted like incendiaries, and of authority. He did not know, then, whether the had set fire to the house which they thought they . Government -of Ireland were to be attacked for were to leave. This was a pretty serious charge their lenity or for their harshness. Some Honoura- against such men as the Duke of Richmond and the ble Gentlemen seem inclined to abuse them for both. Lord Chancellor of Ireland; but.it the Howse looked They had not thought it necessary to apply to the at the dates, they would see that nothing could be Chief Justice, from a motive of delicacy, lest in case more unjust ; for they would find 'thee when the or any thing should happen which might render it ne- der was issued by the Irish Government, they were cessary to bring persons before him for trial, he must, aware no change would take place. (Hear, hear.) by being called to the Council, be put in possession of . lie must say that such charges as these had produ evidence which might afterwards operate in the way , ced the most painful impressions on the Irish Gomez of prepossession against those who were to take their ' meat, and he was most sorry they - had been so lightly trials. After these great and learned men had ma. hazarded. He begged pardon of the House for • turely consideMi the subject, it was thought necessary i having detained them so long. ( Hear, hear) ; but by the Lord Chancellor and the Attorney General that', he trusted that the statement he had given would afa the latter should draw up the letter, which was issuedin ' ford satisfaction to the House, and that they would , his ( Mr.Fole's) name, and frame it in such a manner as . I see no necessity tor the production of the papers that to bring clearly before the eyes of the Catholic Celts- were moved for. mittee, the nature of their' proceedings, and the ten- I Mr. WHITBREAD only rose in consequence of dency they, had to violate all the provisions of the Con- 1 the obset rations which the Right Hon. Gentleman vention act. The letter thus drawn up by this high an - had personally directed to him. The H. Gentle thority was issued; and he was happy to say, that not man said, that they were meant in good humour, and one person had been taken up and held to bail in con- yet he had accompanied them with a little threat for • sequence of it, except the printer of the Galway paper, the future, and castigation for the past. But he must who had inserted an advertisement, calling a meeting beg to remind the Right Honourable Gentleman, that directly in the teeth of it. The Lord Lieutenant and he was in no way responsible for any thing contained Council had, from the beginning to the end, acted in in a newspaper • and if the words were privately re a spirit of the greatest lenity towards the Catholics. ported, he begged the person who did so, if in that They supposed this letter would have the desired ef- House, would repeat the words he had said. The feet ; and it was positively determined at the time it Right Hon. Gentleman being exceedingly warm, was issued, not to act farther upon it. It had been and lie (Mr.Whitbread) not -being v.-ry cool, hard said, that it was very eettaordinary the Irish Govern- words might at times have passed between there ;--- ' then call the Catholic) Committee illegal. but he did not feel conscious of having transgressed ment should . 5... This point had not escaped the acute sagacity of Lord Chancellor Manners and Mr. Saurin, but they were welt convinced, that although the Catholic Com mittee, merely as a Catholic Committee, was not illegal, yet from their having constitutued them selves into a Committee of Grievances, in which the most violent language had been held, and from the secret information they had received, they were determined to call it so. As to the charge of his presuming to take such a step upon his own responsi bility, he was surprised it should be imputed to him, for he was no lawyer ; and he assured the House, that whatever degree of arrogance might be imputed to him, he never entertained an idea of taking upon him self an act of such magnitude and importance. 'lle Honourable Member then proceeded to &serve, that the Irish Government could not Wait for instructions from this country, because this self-constituted Parlia ment would have had one meeting, which might have 4 a very disagreegile and dangerous effect. He the proper decorum of peiliamtintary language. He must also add, that even the absence of the Right Honourable Gentleman should not preclude him from making observations on his public conduct, and the more, as he had friend* to defend him, if they thought proper. Mr. POLE observed, in explanation, that he really meant to convey his remarks in perfect good humour towards the 'Honourable Gentleman. He had seen the observations in a newspaper, and they were so much in the • Honourable Gentleman's manner, that he really believed them pretty correct.— (it laugh.) Mr. WHITBREAD would only say, that he thought it the incumbent duty of every Member never to say one word of any parliamentary report. Mr. PARNELL should wait till a future °ppm+ milky to deliver his opinion on the policy of the Irish Government. He contended that the motives of the ' Catholics could be fairly judged of only from the Re. *shalom titer had come to, and not from the simians 'maw;^Mar oe