Star. — London, England, 1816-03-09 00:00:00

iguAo id the esould ale . .pilvate *platers investigate the me. t i i i t he question before they exec u t ed his corn .:,;,,d ? It was an experim ent he should not like to, see ' le i e d. (.41.tepi.) The natural and best d.dence I he West Indies was to be found in our maritime Vie, but if such garrisons were thought necessary, it wo uld be bettei that we should only retain our old dents as they had been found sufficient to sup 4 ,„ us with colonialyroduce. The benefits of a re rdi;ctioo of our force to the lowest possible amount leo t o be found not only in the immediatb saving, c apacity which the country thus acquired wingiw the efforts which any new war might ren net:wary. From the economy practised after ilr *s pace of Versailles the country was enabled to t he g reat expenditure which the late war had tar . d. With a view to this reduction bethought It wo odhawe been advisable to instruct the Commit. to the amount o f f orce voted into the num .lett.tlotessary for England, Irelmd, or foreign ci ser- A surprising point.in the peace establishment A pposed, was the increase of the Hou s eho ld 01 2 ‘ fir o f r y,"a species of force, the expense of which was om,quarter more than any other. In 1791, the Noe G ua rds and the Blues amounted to 785 men. b oos they were increased to 1101 ; last year they b e d been raised to 1504, and this year to 1740, being an iscrease of 240 in time of peace. It was no int,. ent, that because these troops had been usefUl in s e i ra e of war at Waterloo, that they should be conti eyed in tune of peace. The original number of seven hundred had been sufficient for the duty of the me. go pas, and was it meant that the remainder should b ee mployed in turn with the other regiment, to pie rest smuggling ? Nothing could be more ridiculous than to employ these great horses to trot up and esse the Sussex cliffs after smugglers. A proper l aud of honour for the Court s!iould be retained, od the rest replaced. by less expensive troops. — bother very extraordinary prep:nation for peace was the increase of every cavalry regiment, by 148 sea. As to the large garrison of Jamaica, if it w e re ternary, as it was pretended, for the internal 'ran qoillity of that island, he did not see , why the cola- sists themselves should not defray it, as they had done in the years from 1792 to 1800. From St. Do. L ingo no present danger could be apprehended,., wrile the inhabitants were split into factions, and had no navy a but if our islands were threatt-ned from that quarter, our defence would be in our navy. He a dmitted that it was necessary to keep a large garri son in St. Helena ; but lie could not see why we should be at the sole expense of guarding a man who warsaid to be the prisoner of all the Allots. It had been said, that the saving by any reduction would be trilling, became there was a certain sum which it be came necessary. to spend, in consequence of Mr. Windhao's plan. It the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) when he had entered office, had thought this plan would be too expensive for the finances of the coun try, he should have proposed the repeal of it, beisire many persons had become entitled to the benefit of 1 , it. The Noble Lord had repealed the essential part I ' of the plan, but lie had thought fit to continue the part which he now complained of, as a boon to be held oat to increase the number of recruits. He ( Mr. Wysiej did not lament that this plan tad not been elpsied, notwithstanding the expense it had occa. amid, for it bad overcome the reluctance to enter blithe military service which formerly existed. But apposing the sum to be saved by the proposed is., action only ie600,000, and It was very difficult to klieve that it would be so small, even this would PT the interest of the loan which might be raised in. *del the Property Tax, and even establish a sink. I had to pay off the capital. It was the impera. batty of the House, however small the possible Anion was, to effect it, and follow it up by the Illittestregard to economy in all other departments. Admiral BERESFORD said, that no Officer Mil undertake to defend the %Vest Indies with a bag force. - If they were to be defended by a ,Imbig force, it must be by a floating force at etch hi This was not only his opinion, but that of !Officer who had captured many of out present anions. Where could a floating force, he w o u ld take shelter in the hurricane season ? The Ho 'able Gentleman who thought the West India ds could be defended by fifteen hundred men, 'have had but little informafion'respecting those - Barbadoes alone would require that en bad iog hievei It was taro of as rf q bad it time , ,t♦enoau vidu.l6 I grew iatnento regfeCi- d ro the g jot vcetvri hat ti coterie figure& couipo icar.)— w :arm: . ehaniv Jose were th" 11 kr." , rs ; bbl lent ouglt I rs our : ' Lod MILTON said the Honourable Member Ilhol4lsaid that there had been no wars dining the a t'eFoy in which we had not been engaged, had L _,`"elialory very inattentively. That same Member 'iggthilleit our Constitution would adapt itself to watuded empire, as if an extension of our pos- Mionsabread could guarantee us from influence A s Would this influence be the less because we we islands in the West Indies or more settle is the East, or did not the extension of these • give an additional source of influence to Croon, and of apprehension to every friend of Constitution ? They had heard disquisitions, Ills nature o f a n i nter media t e state between peace I tar, and k was said that on the occasion of all treaties of peace the establishment', had not . immediately reduced. How far was this con " with the fact ? In 1784 the force voted for 'WWI) was 17,483 men—in 1786 they were 741 . This was an increase of two hUndied mru diem the intermediate establishment between ' sad war. The Noble Lord (Castlereagh) had , himself as ignorant of the history of former, !_aPpeared to be of that of snore retest times, 1914, after the Peace of Utrecht, the military 'Mich in 1711 had been 201 °thousand mei', was • to twenty-one thousand mai. This nine of the army was at once reduced ! In' 1713, f ilre reduced was seventy thousand men. It was l iwY, were chiefly foreign troops, but they were 0 7 England, and commanded by an English The next treaty of peace, after a great war istto i f AiLla-Chapelle in 1748, the force was then n one year from 49,000 to 18,000 men.—..l t h Peace of 1 . 703 the reduction was still greater, Nse torce which had been voted in that year was that voted in the next year was 17,000. Thus was the opinion of the present day, 'it never -.mi le been thought necessary to have any inter. establishments. Fur all these reductions le had quoted were uut only rapid, but had at ow our force down to that level At which il beell kept during all the time of peace. There Macy in demanding a reduction of stari establisbit4nts, withotit appeovirg of the naiades.' He had not arraigned the Treaties, hec4u;e he dreaded immediate war, but because when, war, at a (noire distant time might break out, they w ave us no roll cient security against the power of France. The Nui.le Lord (Castlereagh) must either think his trea ties secure or insecure. It they were secure, our l ei• litary establishments should be reduced much lower, if insecure they should have been raked Mar higher. The Htinettrable Officer (Admiral Beresfnrd) who had said that he could not undertake to defend the West Indies with a floating force, might have been correct in his opinion, but the question WAS 11.ot as to the force necessary to defend those islands in war, but what was the smallest possible force n hich could be lift there in time of peace? The garrison which WAS to he left in the Mauritius WAS three thousand men. While the island was in the hands of the !louse of Bourbon, an engineer had repotted to the French Government that 2,000 men were quite enou eh to de. fend it. And what was this force to defend it against ? Why against the naval power of England in time of war;—while we were to keep up 5,000 men to defend die strongest island in the world against France, who had no fleet, and with whom we were at peace. In the history of the island by Grant Viscount de V aux, it would be se:n that there was a hill behin I the town in that island, which 400 men might defend for a considerable time : this was a security against sudden attack. This detail might seem uiOuportant, but it chewed the extravagant disposition in which the whole Estimates were formed, and which was more apses rent in proportion as they were closely examined.— The Noble Lord observed, that it was once said of a man attacked by an epilepsy, that when the fit termi nated, he finished a sentence which he had commen ced before the attack—and b., begged leave to say, that the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) seemed last night only to finish some remarks which he iia.l commen ced in 1807. He referred to the Noble Lord's aiii inddversions, which lie might as well have spared, upon a distinguished individual now no more (Mr. Windham), and in which animadversions the Noble Lord thought proper to charge that great man with saddling the country with what he called a night mare—But these Animadversions were tea creditable, either to the Noble Lord's judgment or liberality.— Fur of what did this night-mare consist ?—why of a provision for the comfort of these gallant men who had bled to establish the safety and to ex tit the glory of the country. For this provision the army were in debted to the wisdom and justice of Mr. Windham, against whose plan the Noble Lord never ceased to cavil, because it produced an expense of about 4 or £500,000 a year. Yet to this exeense for such a pur pose, the Noble Lord perpetually objected, because he truly was so tenacious of economy—so lie who talked of millions with such levity, complained of the' appropriation of 4 or £500,000 to improve the pay and pensions of our soldiers—to provide those valiant warriors with something like the means of subsistence in the evening of their lives—(Hear, hear.)—Such, indeed, was the Noble Lord's hostility to this ar rangement, that death itself could not save <lte author of it from his censure—(!icar, hear.) —As to the re marks of his Honourable Friend on the floor upon the singularly novel dress of the soldiery, it was quite a perversion to say that those remarks were meant in any degree to detract from the merit of the heroes of S'alamanca, Vittoria, or Waterloo. No: these re marks applied only to the authors of such foppery, which was known to be so disgusting in Cie army it self, that he was credibly informed none were sn for ward to reprobate it as our principal military officers. He had heard, indeed, and he believed the statement to he true, that the distingnislied Commander of Wa terino would not allow tli . ”v fopperies to appear in the field. How then could it be deemed disrespect ful to the at my to ridicule such fpoleries ? The ridi cule was indeed only applicable to those who had such foppish articles put on the heads and backs of our soldiery. With respect to the statement, that if our army were disbanded, the poor rates were likely to be more bortheited, the Honourable Gentleman who made that statement had not, he apprehended, any very accurate knowledge of the country. For his own part, he could say,. from his own experience as a Magistrate, that he never found disbanded sol diers apt to become any burthen upon the parochial rates, nor had he ever heard so from any other Ma gistrate. But if the Honourable Gentleman's appre hensions were well founded, what would that avail in favour of his argument ? Fur what did it signify in what way the money was taken from the pockets of the people, whether in poor's rates or other taxes ? Tne former would, in his view, be the preferable mode of providing for the men alluded to; for they were, according to the measure under consideration, to be maintained as a standing army, not only in a manner more injurious to our finances, but upon a principle seriously dangerous to our Constitution. When he spoke of danger to the Constitution, he did not mean in the sense which an Honourable Gentle, man thought proper, to ridicule. He did not appre hend, as that Hon. Gentleman supposed, the fears of any of those who deprecated the danger, namely, that regiments would be brought into Palace-yard to overawe the proceedings of that House, but that dan ger of another kind would be the result—lie meant, the danger of patronage—he meant, that danger, which, although not so direct or immediate as the Honourable Gentleman imagined, was the apprehen sion` of those who opposed this measure, was still as likely, by slow degrees, to undermine the stability of our Constitution. _ _ Sir J. BERESFORD, in explanation, stated, that without a military force to garrison our Colonies, a fleet could never afford them any adequate protection, and this he felt it 'his duty to urge as the opinion of a naval officer. Mr. S. WORTLEY said, that as he had not suc ceeded in producing the amendment upon which he thought it his duty a divide the House last night, be could not consistently vote for the measure is ItS pre sent shape. Mr. WILBERFORCE observed, that be felt him self called upon by the strongest sense of duty to op pose the measure before the House, not only upon financial, eoestitetioetl, and moral, but even upon military grounds. For the character of the army he declared the most grateful and arclent regard. He felt, indeed, the warmest attachment and admiration for that meritorious body,' which had raised the court try to the highest elevation, while it had served as the instrument of PROVIDSNCt for the deliverance of the viothl Irma the greatest danger by 'which it w.ts ever menaced. But with all this feeling he &sold not forbear to express that jealousy of a Standing Army, which our mot distinguished conit:tutional writers had never ce.asyd to inculcate. In expressing this jealousy, however, he meant not to offend, nor could he apprehend, that any offence would be felt by any part of our gallant warriors—so little, did he feel such an apeirhension, that even in the presence of the distinguished hero who had so long led oar army tol victory, he would not hesitate to express t h at jealousy. He acknowledged and admired the services rendered to our army by the illustrious Commander in Chief, and he had therefore a high respect for that perso nage, but he believed his Royal Highness was too much of an Englishman to be offended by his jea lousy of a Standing Army. With regard to the opinion of his Honourable Friend (Mr. Grant), as to the means which existed for preserving our Con stitution, he concurred with that opinion to a great extent. He felt that our Constitution derived consi. derable security from the diffusion of knowledge— from the influence of opinion and wealth—and from the general conviction of its own intrinsic merit. But then it w:ss to be recollected that the influence of the Crown had been most materially increased of late, years, and that such influence was likely to derive great additional power from the existence of a Standing Army.—(Hear, hear.)—He was not one of those who ever objected to the due reward and en couragement of a military spirit. He highly ap proved of the recent institution of an Older of Knighthood, and only lamented that the distinctions which diet Order conferred were not duly extended to the Navy. He never, in.!eed, saw one of the hedge of this Order, that it did not seem to excite his gratitude by the natural association of some glo rious achievement. Of the institution of the Military College, also, he fully approved, because this semi nary was calculated to furnish good Officers, which he understood from military men it had usually been found most difficult to provide. In this seminary, indeed, he was assured that the best system of education prevailed. But still what a source of patronage did this Institution afford? Yet the existence of such an Institution considerably re.' duced the necessity for a Standing Army, because it would always serve to afford good Officers, and privates could be had without material difficulty, whenever an army should be required —(Hear, hear.) But he objected to the standing army at present pro posed, from a consideration of its amount, and from a natural apprehension that as the army had perpe tually been increased at the conclusion of every war in which the country had been engaged for the last century, that increase was still likely to go on, until we should become quite a military nation, and against any measure of this tendency he strongly pro. tested. He also objected to this measure, because, he was one of those who thought that this country was always too ready to go to war, and the existence of a large standing army was but too likely to encourage that disposition. We had most successfully terfui. 'sated the late war, and lie was peculiarly grateful for the adjustment which had since been nide, and cane. eially for a certain part of that adjustment. But still he felt that this adjustment was calculated to ex cite serious apprehensions. For there was season to fear, that the consequence of this adjustment would be is implicate this country rather too much in the affairs of all Europe. Such policy he deprecated, as much as he did some years age the pr j. for gua ranteeing the territories of the Grand Seigner, as if the interest of England could be materially affected by the reduction of the Tuskish dominioes. Now, as to his moral objections to the measure before the House, he could not help expressing the gravest ap. prehension of the injury which the murals of the coun try wouldreceivef rum the prevalenceof military habits. This was a consideration of magnitude, to which he trusted the House would duly attend. Again, he objected to this measure as unnecessary, especially if the power of the navy were adequately consulted. The Navy was, indeed, the branch of our service upon which it was peculiarly the disposition, the habit, and the interest of England mainly to depend; for the navy formed the best bulwark of our defence. while it had no tendency to endanger our Constitu tion—(Year, hear). —Then as to his financial objec tions to this measure—it was exceptionable from the amount of expense which it was calculated to entail. upon the country; and however great our military force, the security which the Empire would derive from its existence would little avail, if the pressure which it imposed upon the resources of the people served to damp their spirit, or alienate their attach ment. The resources of the country were not in e, state to endure any additional burthens. Some di minution of the burthens which already bore upon it must, indeed, be removed, or its distress must be come intolerable. Under such circumstances he could not accede to any measure calculated to ag gravate these burthens, and especiilly to a measure so exceptionable as that under consideration. Lord PALMERSTON congratulated the House upon the length of the discussion, as in the progress of that discussion many objections had been obviated which presented themselves to some minds at the out set. For instance, the force to be stationed in Ireland and North America, was sot now deemed excessive by any part of the House, and as to the force to be stationed in our West India colonies, it was only pro posed, on the other side, to reduce it about 5,000 men; instead of which it was recommended to sta tion two sail of the line in the West Indies. But, in point of tact, two sail of the line would cost more than the maintenance of. 5,000 men, while the latter would be a' much more efficient defence, according to the opinion of all professional men, who thought it peculiarly advisable that each ofour colonies should be provided with an adequate garrison, in order to guard against any sudden unexpected attack in the event of war. In adverting to the troops necessary for the Home Service, the Noble Lord contended, if from the number allotted for that service were de ducted what would be required for reliefs to our fo reign garrisons, there ,would not remain more than -21,000, and even from that number 'about '2,500 men wets to be taken for the Wands of Guernst y lend Jersey. This would reduce the whole to 18,500 men, of. which 7,000 would be cavalry, so that the actual amount of infantry applicable to the Home Service, Would not exceed 11,500; a service which, at this present moment, according to a return laid upon the Table of the House, required no less than 18,000. With respect to the Guards, it wai to be observed that by keeping them up ia.the manner now propostelS they would form a sort of nucleus for any army th at might be wanted at the commencement if a war.— It was true the charge incurred for maintaining than was somewhat big het than that of the outer ir„, Jo of the line, but the ditnaen:e was not very gr.-..t. The same observation might be made with respect t o the cavalry, tar taking the Housetio!d troops at 1.7:n men, the expence would be about ‘112,000, while an equal number a dra2oons would be somewhere :t , ttut 885,000. As to the constitutional point of view in which the question had been argued, though hr from undervaluing that consideration. he confessed he could • not bring himself to believe that any real danger was to be apprehended. At all events, he was 4 little surprized to hear Honourable Gentlemen refer to the reign of Elizabeth as a period when our constizutional liberties were most respected and secured. Sir J. SEBRIGH P contended, that if ever there was a pri.Kl when a large army was unnecessary in this country, it was the present;* as it was the only period, since the introduction of standing armies, that France herselt was totally without one. He should think he forfeited the character of an E ntlish man were he to give a silent vote upon the question. Mr. TIGHE argued against the maintenance of so large a force, not only in this country, but in Ireland; and condemned the attempt, which must be abortive, to imitate the military establishments of the Conti. nental Powers. The Honourable Member dwelt with considerable force upon the exiving condition of Ire land, which required fur its relief, not the coercive measures of a military system, bin the application of some comprehensive measures of Governmelit, which might remedy the evils of former Administrations. The Hon. Gentleman quoted a variety of historical facts, to prove, that the military force proposed was beyond the establishment of any former petiod. He was desirous of increasing fleets and shipping, rather than soldiers. Mr. V. FITZGERALD maintained, that the Honourable Gentleman, who had just spoken, stood alone in the opinion which he had advanced with re spect to the military force in Ireland ; and defended at some length the statements which had been made on a recent occasion by his Right Hmourable 1 7 ,-b..nd (Mr. Peel) on that subject. So far was the force proposed from being the greatest ever maimaing.l in Ireland, the tact was, that in 1806 and 16;)7, w en the Honourable Gentleman's Friends were in po :et-, there were thirty thousand regular troops in Ireland, exclusively of Militia and Volunteers. Adverting to the murder of Mr. Baker, the conviction of fourtzeo persons at Clonmell fur destNying one of Iris Ma jesty's barracks, and other occurrences, indicating a spirit of outrage in Ireland, he coutenie.: that they afforded ample proof of the necessity ol• a powerful military force. Mr. PRI r riE made a few obitervationt, but ;he impatience of the House for the question was suc!l, that we could not collect their tendency. Colonel VEREK ER supported the necessity of a large military force in Ireiand-4000 legidar troop& were not found to be too many to preserve tranquil lity in the County of Limerick ; 25,0J0 theretore could not be considered as more than sufficient for the whole lid Ind. Mr. TIGIIE shortly explained. The Report was then brought uo and read. On the question that the Rtholution b: read a second time— Mr. %VYNNE moved, as an amendment, to leave out all the words after the word " th it," f r the purpose of substituting the words " tile Resolution be re-committed." Oa this Amendment the House divided—For the Amendment 122—Against it 190—Majority 68. On entering thigallery we found Mr. Tfettan putting a question to the CIIANCELLOR of the Extant- QUER, as to the time at which the Property TAX would be brought forward. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that if a Vote of Supply should be obtained on Monday or Tuesday to a sufficient amount, he would bring it forward on Wednesday. Adjourned at half-past One o'clock. ALL WORT IR DRAWN MINT SATURDAY, MARCU 16: The Lottery will then Amish. A Grand Prix.: of 25,000 Guineas ! and Eleven other Capitals, with SW* other Prizes, are In the Wiled. Not Two Blank* to a Prize, and no small Lottery to tallow !—A few ondrawn Tickets and Shares may yet be obtained of IiAZA Su, Duane, and Co. Contractors, front Gate, Royal Exchange, w:.o shared and sold No. 842, a Prize of 420,000! No. 18005, a Prize of £5,000 ! &e. Ste. dm. drawn last Wednesday ; tied a Prise of £5,000, with three Prizes of ,000 each, drawn on Sairday, February St. The Ticket No. 5,416, drawn on Wednesday last, the 6th in. stsat, a Prize of TWISSITT THOUSAND POUNDS, was purehawd of the Contractors, on the 15th ultimo, by I'. Bum, *ha sent it by that &ghee pbst to his Agent, Mr. J. Gtovez, Jeweller, Mar. ket-street !Winchester .— There is but One Day to Draw, vtz. nest Satuiday,, 14th March, and the Wheel contains One Prlze of 15,000 Guineas, One of £l,OOO, Two of .6..A)0, Eight of £2llO, ite.—Undrawn . I.lckets and Shares are sellaig by I'. at his Offices. 4, Comhill, and"), Charing-cro4s, 5,1411, £l,OOO, and 1;692, A. - ,00, the Second Day, were toS sold in Shares by T. Bun. It appears from the papers laid before th e H ouse .of Commons, that the supplies Made to Spain in money, arms, ammuniti ,, n, and milita: y and naval stores, from the year 1811 to the latest period tile same could be made out, amounts to four millions any hundred and fifty seven thousand 414 hundred spid thirty, eight pound:. The late Hon. lirmr NAIRRE, son of the Lite Joan, Lord NAIRNS, whose death lately took place, at the great age of 90, WAS one of the tot ,st ste.dy supporters of the House of STUART, it their last at. tempt to recover the Crown of Great Britain. Dar ing all the wanderings of the Pretender, after the de- cisive battle of Culloden, Mr. NAIRNE was his con. stant attendant ; and it is worthy of remark, th Prince CHrsaLes breathed his last U the arms of this faithful friend. Like many of those whose guided generosity plunged them in,o t!:e t.tt.il iiir4ir of 1745, Mr. NAIRNR s private character was peachable, and perhaps his only tad.: fault, was a too warm attachment to an - old and unfortunate fious. Taurrzesnip.—We hardly know a greater evil than the folluwin, and yet the consequences of it fills the Court of Lhancery with busittest. A letterer dies, confiding to two persons, in whom he fancies :ie can trust, the disposal of his bequests. o.ie i them, from picque or indolence, throws the cone rri in the Court of Chancery, to manage that which his dying friend left to his management, purposely to avoid law t and after a de;ay of years, out comes the estate, like " a pals and ticks( gh.nt"—ail the ;substance being wasted in salaries to Receivers, Ordas Of l'iftsiters, and fees of Court. , 1 111. 1;. YU on an tenon it of iiitiiit le mi what nclotis [gager maaii was it would c who The faun•