Star. — London, England, 1816-03-28 00:00:00

PiIRLI4I;IEN7 ARl' PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, MARCH ft .% hi the Appeal Cause of " Young and lAeden." Counsel we.' finally heard. when the judgment of their Lordships was deferred . ' 01149 morrow. • •• la iltieite of "Lady add Lund - Montgomery v. Waugliop-," a writer fa the. Signet, Counsel was heard for the Appehant, when _farther 'hearing was pee.tnonetl to Adday near. airifkilEtaot'inita•and brouglu up from the Commons Bill foe RegulatinetheOnice of the iectirel of Crown Rents, which lea. read the first time. Lord SYDNEY presented a Petition from the Landowners, Pamirs, and others, of the ''eunty of Werfotil, complaining of tbe. severe and general distress to which the country was reduced by th:depreciation of Agricultural Labour and Produce, and earnestly praying for relief. Ordered to lie on the Table. NATURALISATInN OF PRINCE LROPOLD. The Earl of LIVERPOOL, agreeably to the previous intimation which he had given, moves! that • the • Standing Orders relative to the 'Naturaliiation F..,rigners be suspended,. so far as they -might affect the application of that measure to his Selene f Highaess GiOrk i e Frederick Leopold, Duke 'of SaxeaCobourg. . The motion being unanimou4y agreed to, The Noble E.trl• next moved, that the Bill which . had been introduced yesterday for that purpose be read the second time. That motion being likewise agreed to, the third reading was moved, and in the same manner adopted, when the Bill was ordered to be sent to the Commons. The LORD CHANCELLOR observed, that the practice of the Hotiie on occasions' similar to the pre . s?nt, was, to appoint two Judges for the presentation of the Bill to the other House ; but, as the Judges were then absent on the circuits, it would be neces sary to resort to the ordinary Officers of the . H use for that service. The Biil having been transmitted accordingly to the Commons, was in a short time returned by Mr. Da.toce BATHURST and several other Members of that House, who signified the complete acquiescence of the Commons. • • - The Bill, of course, remains only for the Royal Assent. BARLOW% lIIVORCF BILL. • Barlow's Divorce Bill went into a Committe, when' The. LORD CHANCELLOR, adverting to the clause which related to future intermarriage, miNed, Oita the proceedings in the Committee be defected till to.morrow, in order to afford an opportunity to any Noble Lord 'who might choose to avail himselt of it, for calling the attention cf the House to that clause. The motion of the Noble and Learned Lord was agreed to, and their Lordships adjourned. . HOUSE OF COMMON% Mr. Kirkpatrkk appeared at the !LW of the House with an Account of the Receipts and Disbursements of the Trustees of liamsgate Harbour, from 1792 to 1913, as ordarird.—Laid ass the Table • The Order for a Committee on the Butter Trade was dim Charged, and the Committee postponed till Friday. Sir G. CLERK brought up the Report of the Weghts sot Measuree Bill, and after some conversation between Str M. W. RIDLEY and bir G. Cacac, the Bill was re-comutitted, and the Report ordered to be brought up to-MOKOW. Several Papers which had been souse time ag o laid b e f o re the- House, relative to the Wes Luise, were ordered to be printed. Mr. LOCKHARTawistponed the farther consideration of the R ep art of the FarmiufStock Rill till Wedne• day next. e. LOCKHA moved, dut there should he laid before the H ou lie an Account of all goods seize/ within the last six tronalas, skith the names of the persons iu whose possession the 'cods were at the time of s:izure.—Ordered. • The Promissory Note bill went through a Committee.—Re port to-morrow. Mr. W. SMITH moved fir a number of Papers relative to the Colonies.—Ordered. • The Report of the Loan Committee was brought up, the Re. • Uolutlinsagreed to, and a Bill ordered accordh,gly. 1 he American Trade Bill was read a third time and passed. Mr. BIRCH moved, "'That there be laid before this House, en Account of allthe Ships which have sailed to the East Indies Slider the Lieenee of the lidani of Controul, and under what Acts, since the last Re:urn."—Ordered. AGRICULTURA I; DISTRESS. Lord ELMLEY presented a Petition from Wor cestershire against expensive establishments, and praying that Parliament wouLi oianiine into the agricultural distress of the country, and eainestly recommending the practice of the economy which Lad been promised. Mr. LYTTLETON did not wish to detain the House by entering into the subject of the Petition at • present. Heshould lard; remind the House that he had been at the meeting at which it had been agreed to, which had been numerously attended. The Petition was ordered to be referred to the Agricultural Committee. Sir F. FLOOD presented a Petition from tiff. c,ouniy of Wexford, calling the attention of the House to the agricultural distress. He hoped little of the force of 2.5,001) men which had been voted for Ire land, would be sent to that country or to the neigh bourhood. he understood that the butter trade was to be brought before the House, And he hoped that • the :House would make such regulations as tlould preserve the great trade in that article to Ireland.—. The Petition was ordered•to be referre: to the Com. saittee on the Agricultural distress. Mr. F. ROBINSON had reconsidered the subject of the butter trade, and had come to a determination to postpone the Committee till Friday. Mr. METHUEN hved, that while the H•st.e considered the interests of Ireland, respecting the but ter node, they would not forget the interest of great part of England, with regard to the cheese trade. Mr. BAGWELL presented a Petition from Clon =ell, praying that the. House would examine into the state of the agriculture of Ireland, and that they would grant such relief as they might deem expe dient.—Llid on the Table. A Petition was presented from the Bath and West of England Agricultural Society, expressing their gratitude for the intention which his Majesty's Minis. tab had manifested of relie'ving the country from the • War Malt Duty, and hoping that the House would, as speedily aS possible, take into their consideration the agricultural distress.—Ordered to be referred to the Agricultural Committee. RATDRALISATION UP PRINCR CODOURO. A Message• from the Lords informed the House, that th e i r Lordships had passed a Bill for the Na graliaation of Leopold George Frederick, Prince of Cobourg. The Bill was brouiht iu, and, on the motion of Mr. B. BATHURSI, read a first time; an d, h avin g gone through the other stages, was passed, MroPONSONBY said, he held in his hand a Pe tition, which was uuructously sigued, from to Grand j I 1 • 1 I ~~ Jury of the Cooney of Wicklow, svhich called the attention of the House to the agricultural distress of the country, and prayed earnestly to be relieved from the Hearth Tax, which it stated to be most oppres sive upon the peasantry and the" lower orders of Ire land in general. The Hearth Tax he considered as certainly very obnoxious, and tending to keep alive a spirit of resentment amongst the people which would not otherwise have existed.—Laid on . the table. ,Sir JOHN NEWPORT asked, whether an extent had been issued against Lord Tyrawley, for certain ' *dances which ought to have been forthcoming Mr. PEEL replied, that an extent had been issued, and that the produce of it, if any, would be stated to the House. ' Sir J. NEWPORT wished to know if any thing, and what, had been done to secure money collected towards the Revenue, in the hands of Agents in Itel Anti ? Mr. PEEL replied, that every means had been taken to secure the money of the revenue in the hands of agents, by various expedients, but particu larly by requiring early payments. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved, that the Balk Advance Bill be read a third time. Mr. W. WYNNE hoped the R;ght Honourable Gentleman would have no objection to allow his motion respecting Sir Thomas Thompson, to take precedence. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER signified his readiness to allow the Hou. Muuber to proceed with his motion. . TREASURER OE GREENWICH nos/wear. Mr. W. WYNNE believed that the Hawse Were sufficiently apprised of his motion, respecting the propriety of Sir Thomas Thompson't keeping his seat, after having accepted a situation under Govern. ment, to preclude the necessity of his introducing the subject at great length. It was necessary, how ever, to revert to former Acts, in order that the subject might be more clearly understood. The Act of Queen Anne, he believed, stated generally, that if any person after having been elected a Mem ber of the House of Commons should accept of any office under Government, his election should be void, and a new writ issued for the election of a Member to set vi' in his room. The house, it ought to be remembered, could hare no discretion if the present case was proved to be one of those which, by subse sequent limitations of the Act, rendervi the pu,sersor of the office liable. to expulsion ; and he was prepared to say, that though there might have been precedents adduced, notwitnstanding, he at present knew but one, that they slinuld not be taken into consideration at the present period. The Master of Crccna ich Hospital had, he believed, in two instances vacated . his seat, and a new writ bad at each period been issued. In no less, he believed, than seven instances had new writs been issued for Nterebers to serve in ' stead of those who had accepted situations under, Government. With respect to the resent appoint ment, he did not think it necessary to bring ham ard proofs of it having been given, as it was, he cenceiv• ed, acknowledged by all parties. lie did not mean ' to say that the office had been improperly bestowed, for surely a nitre suitable person could scarcely have been found to fulfil its duties, than one who had fought so bravely in the service of his country, and who had bled and lost a limb in its clef. nee. It was almost unnecessary for him to say what he had said respecting that Gentleman, but as it was well known how motives had been attributed in that House, which had never influenced those who were accused of acting upon them, he thought proper to say what had fallen from him, to spew that what he was now doing was for the benefit of Parliament and the country, and did not oroceed horn any malice or disrespect towards the Gentleman w ho held the office. There had been casrs, he believed, of persons who heal been thrived of their appointments that they might keep their seats, but he should not enter upon them at present. There appeared to hint every rea son to think the appointment Yeasurer one of the obnoxious kind—obnoxious, be meant, to the regu lations made by the House. A person might hold the yilice without any, or without a great deal of knowledge-tit naval affairs. There was a case of a person of the name of Baker, who vacated his seat tbr Hythe, for the election of a Member for which place a new writ was issued. There was another case, of Sir Charles Saunders. who had been appoina ed on the 1 lth of April, 1754 ; but it appeared that Parliament had been prorogued three days before, and his seat could not be vacated because there was no Parliament sitting. If the appointment had been made three days before a general election, it could not be expected that Parliament should give an opinion upon the case, because it would never come before them.. He hoped little opposition could be made to him on account of any delay that might have occurred between the appointments being ac cepted, and the motions coming before the House.— Instances might have occurred of Members keeping their seats because they were overlooked ; and he had known a ease in which a Member had been dead seven months before a new writ was ordered for the place which he bad represented. .The Hon. Member then enumerated various Officers who had vacated their seats on accepting their several ap pointments, and concluded by moving— " That the Speaker may issue his warrant for the election of a Citizen to serve in Parliament for the city of Rochester, in the room of Sir Thomas Thompson, K. B. who has accepted the office of Treasurer to the Royal Hospital at Greenwich:" Mr. BANKES thought, that the question was very narrow in itself, and easy to be decided upon. He thought, that upon the whole, however, it would be much be tter to have the evid ence u p on t he subjec t collected in one body, and printed for the use of the House, that Members might be enabled to make themselves thoro ug hly acqua i nte d w i t h a ll the vari ouspoints of difference between this case and others which had some before Parliament. The Honoura ble Member had •attempted to construe the Act of Parliament in a manner entirely different trom.the general mode adopted by the House with respect to its own Memberr, and h e 'thought; in a manner on. authorised by the %fords of the Act itself. The nearest case which might incur the penalty of the Act was, the Master or Governor of Greentylch Hos. .pital, as in his opinion, there were professional steps which ought to be exempt. He considered the pre acat ws site One entirely distinct from that of a Coca' , 'mos Amman, and the freedom and independence of Parliament would not gain much by its decision. The Honourable Member concluded by recommend ing a Committee, and that time should be allowed that the House might become more thoroughly ac quainted with the subject. Sir J. NEWPORT thought the Honourable Gen f .. &man who bad just sat down had taken a very curi ous line of argument. He had talked of exempting some cases, and the relaxation of Parliament on this subject was very dangerous ; inasmuch, as if it should be carried to any great extent, there mighebe no office which would not come amongst the exempt cases. Hw considered, that to go farther in the re laxation was to act contrary to the sense and to the duty of Parliament, and he hoped it would not be suffered to proceed. Mr. B. BATHURST stated a case in which he believed the decision of Parliament had been favour able to the holder of the office. He did not intend to dispute what had been said respecting the Green wich Hospital master, but he should - remind the House, that it the master and the treasurer were simi lar cases, the treasurer must keep his seat. Mr. PONSONBY, after stating that he thought the case required consideration, expressed it as his opinion, that a Committee should he appointed to report the precedents, and then to decide up= the question after due deliberation. Mr. B. BATHURsr shouli have no objection to the proposal of the 11 , mout able Member. Mr. PONSONBY hoped that no deci.>ion be Rival without the most mature delib4mti )n. Mr. W. WYNNE had no objections to the Clm tnittee, but could not perceive what great dilf•tence would be made by it ; on the contrary, the House wocid rentanber, that if an action shoul,l be brought against an Honourable Member for eielt of his votes, the Court 9f King's Bench would decide according to the Act of Parliament, and not according to any Resolution of that House. Mr. \VYNNE proposed to withdraw the original motion, which was done, and he next moved that a Committee be appointed to enquire into precedents •respecting naval and military officer s accepting offices of profit under the Crown, and still c.fritinuirig to hold their scats as Members of that House.—The motion was agreed to, and a Committee was al:- pointed accordingly. • General FERGUSON moved for an Account of the Civil Offices at the Cape of Good live, with the salaries annexed thereto, in the year Itil 5 ; and also tor a simil it return for the year 1796.—Oidered. Mr. BROUGHAM asked, now that the Iccome Tax was to cease, whether it was intended that the In:pectGrs of Taxes were to be continued in office ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that these were a very usolul set of 'lien ; it WaS not known how ►ooa their appointments woulo cease. The third reading of the 13. int Advance B:11 was put off till niday not.. NAVY F.STIat ATES. On the Order of the Day being moved for the Home to resolve itself into a Committee, and tnat the Navy Estimates be referred to the same, Lord FOLKESTONE called the a.tesstion of the House. to an as:ertion made, 03 a former evening, relative to the Cydnus and Eurntas frigates. When notice was taken of the .enos mous expense incurred by the country in consequence ot the breaking up ot these ships, which had only been built three vats ag•', an Notscurable Gealeman opposite stated that they had been built in a merchant's yard, and not in the King's Dock-yard, as if he meant to assign that as the cause of their rapid decay, tot they were ren dered useless by the dry-rot. Now, he must contend, that wherever these ships were built, it was the duty of the Admiralty to see that they were built well.— Ois inquiry, he since found the fact to be true, that the - ships were built in a merchant's yard ; but one circumstance was omitted by the Honourable Gen tleman, which made a most matetial alteration in the case—it was, that the timber fur building the ships in question had been furnished by the Govern ment. He wished to ask if the Lords of the Adnii. rally knew, at the time, that the timber so furnished had the dry-rot, or was unfit for use, and whedstr , the same sort of• timher was not now used in bedding' other ships ? Mr. ROBINSON observed, that no blame could be thrown upon him fur the information he had given —he took it from a paper which stated, that the ships had been built in a merchant's yard. That seas :11;1 the information he possessed at the time, and be could state no more than he knew. Lord FOLKESTONE replied, that the Honour able Gentleaum should h.tve known that the ships had been built of fir timber furnished by the Go. vcrnment. Mr. BARING said, it could be no satisfaction for the House to know where the frigates were built.— They were built in 1813, and now they were to bei broken up as useless. But was not this the fault tit the 'Admiralty, whose duty it was to see that the ships were properly built ? Mr. CROKER said, during the total exclusion Of Great Britain from the Continent, a great quamity of fir was imported from America; and as tilt enemy were building great numbers of ships, his Majesty's Government thought it would be highly advisable to build several fir frigates for immediate service. It happened, that some fir timber, by some unaccount able means, was of an inferior quality, so that ' it, rotted away in a very short time; while, on the other hand; many ships now built of fir were in a very sound state. The House then went into a Committee of Supply. Sir G. WARRENDER proceeded to state the estimates. He said, that the present estimates were greater in the Civil Department than they were in a certain year of, war. But it could be proved at the same time, that there was no unnecessary waste of public money on that account. The Victualling Dc partment had not been reduced inconsequence of the great arrears that were to be brought up. 'There v'as now, a large sum under the bead of Widows' Pen sions; the sum amounted to MGM% on account of the great addition to the number of persons who re ceived this charity. There was a large sum for build ing and repairing ships; as. Well as for making im provements in the King's. Yards, because a determina tion was entered into not to build any more ships. in merchants' yards. He should abstain. (rem entering into the various items, but would be ready to answer any observatioos which Might , be made oo those Ironet then co nt l it d ed by points. The Hon. B in that a sum of A 1,511,610. iu.,, ' . , b6 , dera,intt the I xpenses beiocg;ng to the C-vi) of the Nsvy. .‘o ufliceta thzt ing t t the Aiiinti:Alty, the Navy Pity dr ue. tual!ing-orrice, the expense of otEcris (j i , .docli,yetqs, eigajards, ships in oldina!v, chaplains, &c. Mr. BA I ING expressed his su,pr:se, Hon. Gentleman l•hould state the aricit l iq ner he did, and a.sked, vt hy he did net v , head distinctly instead of pott;ng them 41 in Captain PELLEW wished to k of , s , v. . ) „ of the o ffi ces-that were.now Lel no mil., n ot duced by some of them Leigh izto ai r did not conceive any nece,s ty tor kce f ,i„„ expenses in dockyards, and paiucularly dock-yards. Bermuda and At:ti.,ua engi rt to up ; but he saw no necessity Ic.r ke p i " n? Madras and Bombay- He allu2ed to ttsi z ;, : i laid on the widows IA naval Capt :ins i n ye ,, „ , v I their pensions, which he cotnplaiiitd o f as 6 4 , 1 hardship. They were to receive a p em i on of 03 a year, provided their other income was ren &vi e that amount ; then if the income of a tr .,. dow amounted to the sum t it 4130 a y ea? the - not entitled to receve a pc.:sion, aitheni, teet,o4l )1' paying those pensions ar o se out o f a wai. di le tion cto: s ta n de ntly made from th e pny mid . . 4p. Lints. This was not the Case in the Army, b xsa .. a C4,lonei's Nt:dow was entitled to her petsio a , Lat. ever her inexise was; therekre I:e hoped the Lis s ,t the A.Jtniralt y attend to this cilcumstart:, and rented)• weat at, iitjutice. It might beta! that C,,1 - tnefis it, the attny potaased * tittle cmm.,. , sions ; but thi..= a ailv..nt ige ; ft One many masters and c.,lnanti a d ets i n t h e navy Was' would be my glad to have an opportunityof me i a large sum of money fur commissions of Pt•tt cap limits*. He himself was a I uli Coluuel , an 3 he witted to know why he might .not be allowed to russza the Same advantages with Colunels in the Army ? Mr. PONSONBY expressed much satisfaction x what Lll from the Hon.' Gentleman who spoke L ist , but this was not the immediate question betose House. lie wished that each head of arv.ce be voted separately, and not put to the'liouse Is weeping vote, as was now d one . N r.hint cGu,,t le a d more to to ”nomy than cnabl.ag the liquse o juege of the particular sum intended for ma pan; cola'. service. Lord CASTLEREA CH saw no objection loth course proposed by the 11;ght Hon. Gei,:lem.to, aid therefore he shuuld agree to Lath item being You! Mr. I'ONSON!W thoup,l3 it the most conveniza and the most utetiti mode that could be adopted. Mr. TIERN.LY rose for the purpose of retard. ing the Hon. :3:.cretary of the Ado:juicy (Mt. Cr.. leer) of the pc:r.t he had left off at, when the Esti. mates were last before the Hcuse. The Hon. Se. cretaly had charged Lim with making the gtossee mistakes that. ever any individual 11,1 d fallen into.— He had 'accused bitn with misleadie; the a: u e through .)111 the UI:olz cl' the speech had delive:d No that OCCA:,1011, by SZatin7, tent lie (Mr. Tieri.e ) ) had declared, that, comparit:F, the tits: Tear 01 ileac-, with the last year of ww, th:te nev:2t y, as an increaa in the Ordinary of the Navy, in the former period.— Ile had said no such thing. His positian was. that no increase was to be ft and in the first deer nit peace, as compared with the last ye.ir of war, la the Civil Departments of the Navy. The HonotiraWe Secretary observed, that, it he (Mr. Tierney) 10 used common diligence, he would have found, that his assertion was erroneous. Bat the fact whs, the his observation had been misunderstuocl, for he kilt., very well, and be admitted, that the ordinary t.t t:e Navy must necessarily be increased in the tits: of pacification— bu. he dolied that such an inctc..se appealed in that pats of it, which consisted ie Civil Departments of the Navy. With respect to to. formation or. this point, at the period of tip! peAce of Utrecht, he had no other document to refer to hot the J.nwn ifs. The gross amount of the Ordit:.lli of the N.lvy was there stated, but the items It-Tt insetted at length. They were, boy:eves-die stwosed, pre.erved amongst the papers of the Session, and perhaps the Hon. Secretary had examined them. — All he knew on the subject was, that the total amount of the Ordinary cf the Navy, In ri2, was .El Se; CO in 1743 - - •Lvts s , t 0 /hill an Increa-r on the whek, without soxi! yin flat, items, of tata,eoo Eut he now came to cbise galArters with the .Hcanutr. able Secretary. The cost ut ti e Adr.ia4hy aul Navy Offices, and of the Navy Pay Office, ha 176'2 (a ychr of war) was - 4:!.,‘ ctl In 1763 (a ytar of pracs:) it waS - ;.: •i' 3 Here, certainly, there wAs nu increase—and S' l (At it supported his statement. He next came to the su:a charged for docklards. ha 176,2 it was . • . LI S,CG2 In 1763 - . :S,r•titt Being pound for round the same in each Feria. — The charge for the ont-purts wa,— •- ,- lit I 74351 - - ,evna 176 S 4,9.0 Being a diminution cf a few hundreds, but frit sufficient to contradict the Honourable Sectctiui He,Row came to 1745 and 17=9— in Ms (a year of uar), the charge of the AtintirahyOri. e, Navy °trice, titc.was i tt7, 1 119 In 170 Ivar 41 vacs:), it %t at . sq.(tlt Being a dcervase of 3.91 s And yet, when he stated that Ito increase had taken place in the Civil DLparttnents of the Navy, in the first year 4 peaco, compared with the last year cf • war, the Honoorable Secretary described him to he quite ignorant on the subject. With re.rsert to the estimates of 1781, 2, and 3, he could make nu o!, servation, since, from want of time he bad out e 1.,• mined them. lint, he thought, he had shewen the Honourable secretary that he was wrong in his assn- Lion, and he had no doubt that he felt rt. lie had made a discovery, that the Ordinaries were gre (ter in the first year of peace than the hit of war, but 1 1 that did not invalidate his (Mr. Tierney's) statement relative to the Civil Departments of the Navy. On this part of the subject, he should nrt trespass on the House further. On the subject immediately Ware the House, the increase of salaries to the Clerks in the Admiralty, &c. he should now make a fevi ob servations. No doubt the Honourable Sec:v.l would meet him on this point, by referring to t%gt Order in Council of the 30th of January last. Ant by Si ; ii . • d i s ! xi , the 'atiil4t dial 3 til t c amas if st not b e t; te? j, • 1 up Lu g t il; t 1 3 0 toe $ t..