Star. — London, England, 1811-01-18 00:00:00

continue their eristence for sir months certain. Th e , stibj,.:ct had beea so lunch debated already, that he sientle content himself with proposing hie Amend mem wit!lont adding one word farther. The question on the Amendment being then put, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER row to say, that he would very shortly state his rea -50115 for opposing this amendment. The Committee w as now u r on a point on which both Houses seemed t „ h e a greed, namely, that there should be some sus pension of the prerogative of creating Peers. The re solution to that effect went up to the Lords quali tied with this, that the Regent might bestow the Peerage as a reward for military or naval merit, but it returned unqualified. On this point, therefore, the two Houses might be considered as at one. The ob ject now was to cover the space of time within which the probability was that the King might return to the exercise of his authority, and find his Upper House of Parliament in the same situation as when he left it. The s uspension was proposed to continue only during a period within which the Parliament and the country might entertain fond and reasonable hopes of his 1%-lejeety's recovery. His hopes indeed were ardent and sanguine that this happy restoration would take place in a much shorter time. (Hear, Hear.) — Was there not, then, a degree of indelicacy in run ning a race of time, as: it were, with his Majesty, and limiting the period as much as possible which was to be allowed for the removal of his calamity ? The Committee was not to be guides solely by the recol lection of the former short duration of the disease.— Was it not in evidence by the Physicians, that though the radical strength of his Majesty's constitution was not impaired, yet at his advanced time of life it might belonger inrepellinga severe attack thanbefore? Was it not proper to make a liberal allowance for that consideration ? He must, also, beg leave to im press another circumstance on the attention of the Committee. It had never yet been tried, what would be the actual effect on the recovering mind of his Ma jesty, on finding that a Regency had actually been i established : by the blessing of PROVIDENCE, the Royal mind had never hitherto been subject to the feelings which might, perhaps, arise on such an occasion.— In every instance of recovery, his Majesty had found things exactly as they were before. It was no un meaning assertion to suppose that the difficulty and embarrassment of explaining to the recovering mind of his Majesty all that had been done during his ill ness, might have a-very injurious effect in diminish. ing the rapid progress of convalescence. Was it then unreasonable that the Committee should give a more extended period than that now proposed, within which no alteration might take effect that could in any way disturb the mind of his Majesty. It certainly appear ed to him important on many accounts, that the pe riod should expire while Parliament was sitting ; but the six months now proposed would expire in August next, when it was likely that Parliament will have closed its session. For instance, he could easily conceive that the prospect of complete con-, valesceoce might be so near, that it might be a very proper matter of consideration for Parliament, whe ther the suspension might not be extended to a few weeks longer. He must say, it appeared essential to him, that Parliament should be sitting when the limi tations were to expire ; and it would be highly incon venient to prolong their Session till August, after all their other business would be finished. He confi dently hoped that the Committee would not think that he asked for much, when he pit:posed that the restrictions should continue for a twelvemonth. Mr. WHITBREAD declared that he felt no incli nation to detain the House on a subject that had been already so largely debated ; but as often as the Right HonourableGentlemanre-urgedtheseunconstitutional appeals to the feelings of the House, he felt it his duty to notice them, and call back their attention to principles and sober reasoning. The Right Ho nourable Gentleman had fallen into a gross error ; his argument, if it proved any thing, prayed a great deal ton much. If the establishment of a Regent endangered the King's recovery, or at least threaten ed a relapse, he ought in consistency .to have pro posed that the House should have remained quiet, and taken none of the steps which they had al ready done; that the Royal Authority should have remained dormant ' and the interests of the people solely confided to himself and his colleagues. Such was the natural tendency of the Right Honourable Gentleman's argument. He had talked of the una nimity of the two Houses on the subject of restric tions ; and yet the power of confuting the peerage for naval and military services, which he had de ribcd as so essential, had been thrown out by the .ords, and was then abandoned by him.. Like tatty more in similar circumstances, be affected to lisdain what he could not get. The words of the - Right Honourable Gentleman had strack him with astonishment. The gist of his argument was, that 1 the clause was for the protection of the King.— Against whom ? Why the Prince of Wales he must rnean. Was it meant to be insinuated, that it was the intention of the Prince of \V ales to abase the prerogative, to endanger the rights of his Royal Father, and eventually his own ? What was this but degrading the character of the Prince by - covering it with the most unjust suspicions. The truth was, that it was the wish of the Right Honourable Gentleman, l to bring the present limitation again under the view of Parliament, and subject the character of the Re gent, at a future period, to the same degrading Imputations that had been now thrown upon it.— Was the discussion of such topics in Parliament really so agreeable to some Gentlemen, that they were anxious to have future opportunities of indul ging their inclinations ? Let the Committee reflect, that he .who was for a restricted Regent, gave him the whole power of dissolving Parliament • a power which, of late years, was more important than most people were aware of. Not that he (Mr.Whitbread) hoped for any such event; but there was a Minister tow in power, and- he might be again, who could counsel the Crown to dissolve the Parliament merely because it did not suit his purposes. (Hear, hear.) It such a man was Minister to the Regent, it might be easily supposed what advice he would give. The Right Honourable Gentleman had talked of the pro tection of the King, but he had not convinced him of any danger to result from the curtailment of the sus- I pension. For one, he held the restrictions on the prerogative essentially unconstitutional; and being of that opinion, he must vote for the shortest possible duration of them. , veANNLNG Contend:el, that the precedent of 1788, when properly eonsidered,,affarded no example for the limitation that was now proposed. If he were permitted to conjecture the principles on which the two Houses had acted is sanctioning the Resolutions they had come to, he would say, that the leading prin ciple seemed to he this, that a. marked distinction should be made between the possession of the Royal Authority, and the election of a Regent. The mode of proceeding by Bill had already suificiantly marked the distinction; and having already voted against restrictions on the Regent's authority, he must of course be decidedly adrerse to the longest of the two periods no 1A - proposed. Another reason which weighed with him in favour of the shorter period was, that if the Regent was to have the disadvantage of the principle, he ougja, also, to have the advantage. He objected, therefore, to the longer period : because, if it was to ;be the measure of the King's recovery, he rejected it as no measure at all : and if it was not so, he did not wish it again to be a subject of Parliamentary dis- cussinn. Mr. BATHURST differed very much from the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last. In his (Mr. B.'s) opinion, the view of Mr. Pitt, in bringing in the Bill of 1733-9 for an unlimited period, was to prevent the House of Lordsfrom disagreeing at any future period to the restoration of the Prerogative, because they did not wish their House to be enlarged ; and the main ground was, that his Majesty, in case of his reco very, might find the House of Lords in the state' , he left it—and as all former instances of the King's recovery had been within six months, it appeared to him more reasonable, that the limitation should he such as to afford sufficient time for that now to take place, from the passing of this Bill. The King ought also now to have the chance of finding the House of Lords in the same state in which he left it. If he did not, it might militate against the best interests of the country. He ridiculed the idea of the present Bill being justly to be attributed to any jealousy of the Prince ; and defended that part of the limitation to six weeks after the meeting of Parliament. He de- I nied there would be any necessity for the Prince of Wales, or any one in his behalf, to come forward on the Ist Of February, to move to take off the restric tions, because the law itself did that at the period they were by the provisions of the Act to expire. Taking the case generally, he did not think twelve months too long, especially as it would happen at a time when Parliament was usually sitthig. Mr. WHITBREAD, in allusion to what had been said by a Right Hon. Gentleman, on what had fallen from him, that Parliamentary interest might be crea ted on making a Baronet, assured the Right Hon. Gentleman, he did not mean to say as much might be done by the one way as the other, but that making Baronets might certainly be turned into such a source —and he believed that the Right Honourable Gen tleman was not so unversed in a knowledge of the world, as not to know that not only making a Baronet, but even that of a mere Privy Councillor, had been ~deemed so. Mr. BATHURST said, if the Hon. Gentleman meant to allude to the circumstance of his being !Rade a Privy Councillor Mr. WHITBREAD declared he meant no such !allusion. Mr. TIERNEY said he would only trouble the House with one observation. By adopting this course nothing would be obtained. Parliament from the late period of its commencement must now sit four or five months; and it, towards the end of that time, there should appear any well-grounded prospect of his Ma jesty's recovery, it would be in the power of any Member to move, before the rising of Parliament, for a protraction of the restrictions ; and he thought the mode provided by the present course could only arise from a desire to insult and wound the feelings of the Prince of Wales.. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the argument of the Right Hon. Gentleman was fallacious, for he knew very well that no Bill for ex tending the restrictions could be brought in during the present Session, wiles; there was some clause in the Bill now before the House to warrant such a pro ceeding, which there was not. As to his meaning any insult to or suspicion of the Prince of Wales, he positively disclaimed it. His whole conduct, on the contrary, had been actuated by his duty to his King, and was founded on one general principle and ab stract reasoning, and had nothing reflecting or in sulting attached to it.-4 loud cry of Qufstion, Queition. Mr. FULLER said, it was the unanimous opinion of the Physicians, that it the King's recovery did not take place in twelve months, it would be a lost case. That period he did not think too long to wait for such an event, and therefore he would stand by his King to the last drop of his blood. The question being again generally called for, a division took place.—For the Amendment 160 Against it 181—Majority in favour of Ministers '2l. When re-admitted into the Gallery we found Mr. TIERNEY on his legs, speaking on the sub jeet of Pensions for life, the restriction of granting which it contained in the 10th clause. He said, the power of granting pensions for life was not given to his Majesty in compliment to the King, but becanse it was necessary for the support of the prerogative ; and if that was necessary for the King, it must be equally so for the Regent. He could not, therefore, look on it in any other view, than that of a marked distrust of his Royal Highness the Prince of Wales : arid then the Right Hon. Gentleman came back to his old argument of having no distrust of the Prince,. but of the ill-advisers he might have around him.— For his own part, he could see no reason why any one should suppose the Prince should have any worse advisers than King George the Third bud met with. If he should, be feared the country would be in an unfortunate situation. If the Right Hon. Gentleman meant to argue, that pensions should be done away i altogether, let him say so; but he could not agree that the Regent should have all the trouble and re sponsibility, without an of those supports from the prerogative which were to enable him to contend with the various difficulties of the situation. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that so often as the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke last should advert to that subject of inten ding to distrust or insult the Prince of Wales, 8o of ten would he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) deny it ; and he could not see how, in any fairness et argument, any such intention could : be attributed to him. He disclaimed the mean and paltry view of endeavouring to recommend himself to'the future notice of his 'Majesty, by his Want eafgavourt to place the Government in such a stale u that, In ease of his Majesty's recovery, he weight find the Preroga tive as nearly as possible in the situation in which he ,left it; and he thought that, instead of the Prince's conceiving that what was done was meant as any distrust of his Royal Highness, he would ra ther be induced to look forward for faithful servants to those who had so steadily discharged their duties to his Royal Father—(rear, hear, Afar.) With re spect to what the Right Hon. Gentleman had said about Pensions for life, they stood exactly on the same ground with Peerages, only that they were not of such high importance ; and therefore, during the short time of the restriction, they could do but 'little towards weakening the power of the Regent. Mr.TIERNEYsaid, that alto the - first part of what had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman, he had heard it without surprise. As the Right Hon. Gentle man had gone so much on precedent through the whole of the proceeding, he did not wonder that he had looked to precedent for a speech to make. The speech which he had just favoured the Home with was the same that Mr. Pitt had made in 1789. (A lasigh,) and any body might find it in the Parliamen tary Register. He could not, however, see any reason why the Regent, acting in behalf of the King, should not have the power equally of granting pensions.— The civil list was limited in its amount by law, and the four-and-half per cents. were, as the Right Hon. Gentleman stated, much burdened ; but it some of those burdens should fall off, he could not see why the Regent should not have the power of conferring pensions upon them. However the Right Honour able Gentleman might flourish away upon his Lode pepdence, the public would believe that this most flourishing and disinterested Gentleman might have something lurking in his mind, which merely aimed at depriving the Prince from giving away any of the good things during his Regency, in order . that he KMr. Perceval) might have more to dispose of, if the ing should recover. They might think, that when he made such a flourish about standing by his beloved Sovereign, he really meant the standing up for his beloved self and his beloved colleagues. (A larch.) He thought, however, that thoss who re dly stood up for the country, would wish the Regent to have the power of so rewarding services, that meritorious ser vants of the state should not find themselves deserted in their old age. Sir JOHN NEWPORT made some objections with respeit to the pension-list of Ireland. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that all grants made by the Regent could be confirmed, until his Majesty's pleasure should be de clared to the contrary. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, the Clause requiring the residence of the Regent in Great Britain was altered by insert ing, instead of Great Britain, the words " the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland." The clause was then agreed te. After some fur.ner clauses of the Bill had been read, and agreed to, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that he had now come to that clause on which some difference of opinion might be expected. He meant the clause respecting his Majesty's household. He found that he had no very easy duty to execute in endeavouring to propose a plan which would meet the opinion declared by the House already upcn the subject. Although he found this difficulty, yet in the exceptions that were to be made to the offices relating to th Household which ought to be subject to the contr, it of her Majesty, he thought it was probable that there would be different opinions, and therefore he left a blank in the Bill to be filled up by such offices as should be agreed on by the House. It was his opinion that the officers of the Household, who were now !ermined in the service of his Majesty. should not be liable to be removed by the Queen, or any other—that any vacancy which might take place from death, during the continuance of the Regency, should not be supplied,. and that no new officer should be appointed. As to the Office of Lord Chamberlain, which was now vacant, he thought that it ought not to be filled up, but that the du ties of the office should continue to be discharged by the Vice-Chamberlain. The Gentlemen of the Bed-chamber (under which term was included the Lords of the Bedchamber) !ught not, he thought, to be removed during the Regency, but should be consi dered as belonging to that part of the household under the controul of the Queen. All the great officers of the household were at the head of departments, which were connected with the personal comfort of the King,', and ought not, as he thought, to be transferred to. the Regent. There were two officers who, being kept merely for State, he thought ought to be placed un der the controul of the Regent, and those officers were the Yeoman of the Guard, and the Captain of the Band of Pensioners. The Equerries, he thought, also, should be left as they are, and not removeah - le by her Majesty. He thought that now, when sanguine hopes were entertained of his Majesty's recovery within three months, the great object should be to preserve the domestic arrangements he had made as untouched as possible. The Steward of the Household and the Master of the Horse were also at the heads of great departments connected with his Majesty's personal comforts ; and he therefore thought, they should be under the controul of her Ma jesty, but liable to be removed. The Groom of the Stole, on the same principle, ought to be retained. He had, upon a former, occasion, stated distinctly his opi nion, that in point of feeling and delicacy towards his Majesty, every thing connected with his person should remain as much as possible in its place ; so that'his Majesty should not, upon his recovery, have the pain of finding his favourite domestics removed from his service. As to the degree of state that it might be necessary for the Regent to assume, he did not think that any consideration of economy should prevent it. Suppose that it was thought necessary that the Re gent ,1 should have a Lord Chamberlain, a Master of, the Horse, a Steward of the -Household, and five or six Lords of the .Bed-Chamber, all those appoint. meats would not together, in salary, amount to much more than a sum of £12,000, which would really be an object of little value in point of expence, as it would only be a payment for one single year. These' appointments would, he supposed, be sufficient for the splendour of the Regent's Household, without deranzing the Household of his Majesty. He CCM eluded by reading the clause where .the controul bf the Household was given to her Majesty, with that exception of certain offices therein named. Han. made Mir POIN*SCRIM'Y Gentleman's statement of the endeas, to produce a plan agreeably to the by the Honse upon this subject; as ft al him, that nothing could be more ppposite t dared intention than the measure which the _ Hon. Gentleman now proposed. How could be hen supposed, that in the Resoltitien which the Heuse already came to on the subject of the Household s they only meant that the Yeeman of the Guard, and the Captain of the Pensioners, should be trans• ferret to the Regent, whiie all the other officers were to remain under Cie contreel of the Ceuit. The Right Hon. Gentleman would even leave the Master of the Buck-hounds under the controul of her Majesty. What was the occasion ter this ? It was true that when his Majesty had his sight, he was fond of the exercise of hunting ; but now that he is com pletely deprived of that arimsement, how could it conduce to his personal comfort that the Queen should regulate the department of the buck-hounds ? The intention of the House in the vote they had come to on the subject of the Household was clearly this—that every thing which was necessary for the public and splendid exercise of the kingly power, should be reserved for the Regent—but that every thing which merely related to his Majesty's perso. nal comfort, in his present unhappy state, should be under the controul of the Queen: When his Majesty's Ministers supposed the Sovereign to waken from his trance, and find some of his servants changed, if they really did suppose that that circum stance would be likely to throw him back again into his present state, they would hardly be able to per. suade the House or the Country that such an imper fect sort of recovery would be sufficient to make him fit to govern the country. He differed totally from the Right Honourable Gentleman in principle, and thought that it was clearly the intention of the House that the Household should he 'under the controul ofthe Regent, except such parts as for the reasons there ex pressed were to be given to the Queen. The Right Hon. Gentleman now proposed a measure the very re verse of this, subjecting every thing to the controul of the Queen except one ur two moot inconsiderable offi ces. He should therefore move an amendment agree able to what he conceived the spirit of the Resolution{ and after generally expressing that the management of the Household should be with the Regent, he would state the exceptions whi c h h e thought ought to be made of offices immediately connected with the Royal Person, the care of which was to be given to her Majesty. Of the offices which were immediately con nected with the comfort and dignity of the Royal Per son, he thought the Groom of the Stole, a certain num ber of Lords of the Bed-chamber, (suppose six to he se. lected by her Majesty) the Equerries, and all the infe. rior offices in the Royal Palace. These officers, he thoiight, should he under the control of the Queen. But, as to the great Officers of the Household, the Stew ard, the Master of the Horse, or the Lord Chamber. lain, in their offices, were for the splendour of the Monarchy, and could add nothing to the personal comforts of his Majesty in his present unhappy situa tion. The functions for which those offices were cre ated could not be performed at all, unless they were performed for the Regent : and if those officers were to be placed under the cons eel of the Queen, it would be impossible to make the public believe that there could be any other reason for such a diseosi. tion, except to deprive the Prince of a considerable part of that influence which every other Governmeet had possessed. The opinion of the people, as far as it had been hitherto expressed, was for mekieg the Prince unlimited Regent. They had already on their table the petitions of the City of London and the town of Nottingham to that effect; and there could be little doubt but that this sentiment was general. At the same time that he would wish that the lie. gent should have the controul over the Household is general ; yet as to that portion of it which was to be confided to the controul of the Queen), he thought that she should have a power much more absolute than the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Perceval) had proposed. That Right Hon. Gentleman had proposed placing almost ail the offices of the household under the con. troul of the Queen ; but that she was net to have power to remove any officer, even in case of tire most flagrant misconduct. What sort of a controul was this which would give the Queen no power over any one of his Majesty's domestics ? He, on the con trary, wished that her Majesty should have the absolute controul of that part of the household which came within her province, and that the Regent should have the same controul over the rest. He then r peated the names of the officers who ought, as he conceived, to be under the controul of the Queen.-- They were the Groom of the Stole, the Master of the Robes, the Keeper of the Pi ivy Purse, the Lords or Gentlemen of the Bedchamber, the Equerries, and all the interior officers in the Royal Palace. The propo sition appeared to him perfectly simple and agreeable to the spirit of the Resolution of the House. He could not believe it possible that his Majesty, on his return to reason, should really feel mortified at finding that his eldest son, being appointed Regent during his ill ness, had made a temporary disposition of those of fices which his Majesty could revoke at his pleasure. He could not believe it possible for such a feeling to enter the mind of his Majesty after his restoration to health. He concluded by moving, " That a portion of bis Majesty's Household shall be placed under the controul of her Majesty, viz. the Groom of the stole, the Master of the Horse, the Keeper of the Privy Purse, such p l ease t o select, his Majesty's Equerries, and another O s : c l e a r; Lords and Gentlemen of the Bed-chamber as her Majesty may may be personally attendant upon his Majesty in the palace in which lie is actually resident. That the Groom of the Stole shall have jurisdiction and authority over all such O ffi cers, as the jurisdiction and authority that ntiElit have , been lawfully exer cised over them by the late Lord Chamberlain and that may be lawfully exercised over them at present by the Steward of his Ma jesty's Household and the Master of the Horse. That the Grooms I of the Stole grail provide *terry thirlg that may be necessary for his Majesty during his indisposition ; and that, for that purpost, he shall have maney appropriated to his use, as has been hereto fore done to the use or the Lord Chamberlain, the Steward of his Majesty's House:iold, and the Mister of the Horse." Mr. CANNING trusted that he should not be ccn sidered as unnecessarily objecting to the original mo tion of his• Right Hon. Friend, or as undervaluing the amendment of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, if before the Committee entered into a discussion on the merits of the twcpmpositions, he should submit to them more in detail than he had hitherto done, his opinion on the subject. The first principle en which all a pp eare d to agree was, that during the lamenzed illness of his Majesty every thing should be done, cat only to denote the tender care and solicitude of his 111 surer, ate nOt Hon, 7 ; ht of the endeavcltsfs he had made reeablv to the opiritniz expressed 5 this subject; as ft ap red to ild be more ppposite tlieirde. the measure which the itsght l / 4 v `reposed. How could be have e Resolution r-hich the Heusi the subject of the Household, it the Yelman of the Guard, the Pensioners, should be trans. r, whiie all the other officers er t!:e controul of the Ceutt. ritleman would even leave the 'minds under the controul of her the occasion ter this ? It was ajesty had his sight, he was fond aing ; but now that he is corn- that ariursement, how could it ‘ir.al comfort that the Queen lepartment of the buck-hounds ? House in the vote they had ct of the Household was clearly ig which wa s necessary for the exercise of the kingly power, Or the Regent—but that every related to his Majesty's perso. present unhappy state, should nl of the Queen: When his upposed the Sovereign to waken id find some of his servants ly did suppose that that circum- y to throw him back again into y would hardly be able to per. he Country that such an imper- would be sufficient to make him ntry. He differed totally from 4e Gentleman in principle. and learly the intention of the I - use rould he 'under the controul ofthe parts as for the reasons there ex- ven to the Queen. The Right e proposed a measure the very re- ng every thing to the controul of ur two most inconsiderable offi- fore move an amendment agree- ei ved the spirit of the Resolution{ expressing that the management hould be with the Regent, he ptions which he thought ought immediately connected with the re of which was to be given to her ices which were immcJiately con- ' ort and dignity of the Royal Per- ;room of the Stole, a certain num- ed-chamber, (suppose six to he se. y) the Equerries, and all the infe- )yal Palace. These officers, he 'der the control of the Queen. But, ers of the Household, the Stew. !'e Horse, or the Lord Chamber- , were for the splendour of the ild add nothing to the personal :sty in his present unhappy situa- s for which those offices were cm- :rformed at all, unless they were egent : and if those officers wee' , the controul of the Queen, it to make the public believe that