Star. — London, England, 1816-06-22 00:00:00

_ N ought the Jaigea of Ireland ought to have been consulted upon as subject. The Fart of LIVRR POOL WI, K. intagirrl It to be nes* a Natter of mule U the Graud Jury applied fur the le any case, for Th e Clore to order then to be manilla tett The kar l of DONOUGHMORE* still thought the Jokes altibt to have been consulted on the measure.. The Bill passed through the Cenunittee with, a verhal sates dheeet gloved by the Marquis of Lamsoourts.soateport to CATHOLICS OF IRELAND. - - - The Earl of DONOUGHMORE, previous to bringing forward his mdtion, presented. a Petition from certain of the Protestant Nobility, Gentry, Clergy, and Freeholders of the county of Galway, in favour df the Cat!rile Claims, which 'his Lordship stated to be most respectably signed. • The Petition was read, and ordered to lie cid the ' Table. The Earl of DONOUGHMORE the rose to propose his motion. His Lordship laid, that previ- Otis to entering into the subject.. he thought it right', to anticipate an Objection that might be Made on the' Other side ea to this, subject being brought forward at the conclusion of the Session : ti which hohaii t^ answer, that he did not intend to press upon l i teir Lordships :my substantive consideration of the Claime of the Catholics of Ireland in the present Bestial); his motion merely going to declare the fitness nittl, expediency of entering upon the considera.ion of the soblett at in early period hi the neat Session. His Lordship bete read the Motion With Which he in truded to conclude, and onserted, that he 40014 Pot ilittjcipitte any di fference of Wilda alto the Welts thrita of Oe motion. Had not the great COMM so which we had been engaged been brought to a glo. rlous and satisfactory termination ? .Was not this country, at the present moment iii eoasequenet, in a higher and prouder Sintation thgli at. int former petiod ? Had not the blood df all, without distinc tion of religious communion. that hadheen shed in the ifiritin.. actitAS that hid accoMpahled dal contest. lei ultimately to its &Tibbs termination. and to the piecing this country in that high and pre-eminent sintation in which she now stood ? Was it not 0..:i, siting and expedient, and called for by motives of tie soundest policy, and of the best tegard to the real interests of the Country to unite all its inhabi tants, thus equally deserving, in one bond of bro therly affectio:t, by making them participators of eitualpricilagei and equal rights ? he could not but donsi f rigr the claims of the Catholics to these pill lees. Its a claim of right and justice; and though der came to their Lordships' lid; humbly imploring the mercy df their Lordships, he could not . but con cier s; . them as entitled to right, as well as in every view of sound polio) , and juaice, to the privileges they claimed. If an individual were aggrieved by op pressi,M, for which he had no ordinary rcaledy, would nut Parliament fulfil its duty and interfere. and WAS it not a still greater and more imperative duty _to interfere in behalf of a numerous class of his Majesty's subjects, grievously oppreued by no jam restrictions, aiul by exclusion from those mil l i. leges to which as subjects they were entitled ? A Noble Earl on the Treasury Bench had formerly thought it necessary to protest against its being con. sidered as his opinion, that no relaxation of the exist ing system towards the Catholics ought ever to tale place; and had asserted that, on the contrary, he could conceive cases in which such :Placation would be seasonal& add necessary. It would be very sail factory if, previous to the inquiry into the subject, the Noble Earl would favour the,' Hoes. with his particular sentiments oa the subject. It would be clsatisfactory to their Lordships, If the Noble would state with precisioo, what were the eases in which he conceived that to place the Catholics on a keel with their fellow sobjects, would be not only seasonable but accessary: He bad the greatest re spect for the Noble Ewa, and was persuaded that in - his conduct on this question-, be had been actuated by the purest motives, of whaling conceived to be his Image of duty. It would be most valuable, therefore, taknow what were the circumstances which, in the Duple Earl's opinion, would warrant or would re guise asr alteratian in the present system, and what woe &ailment to which the Noble Earl thought that alreratioa might, under such circumstances, be car ried. I& had no doubt-that the Noble Earl was dis posed at once to pot the Catholics of Great Britain on a footing with the Catholics of Ireland. It was impassible to imagine a more deserving and respec table body of men than the former. And the only reason that occurred to him for the Noble Earl's not at once making that proposition was, that he meant to take the subject up as a Statesman ought, and to propose the revision of the whole code of laws affect ing the Citholics Subjects of the Empire, specifying how far he would go, and where he mould limit himself. He really trusted that the subject of the Cath->lic claims would soon be out of his bands. He trusted chat it would be taken up by his Majesty's Government. It was too serious& matter to be ban died about as a question of party. It had never been so treated on his side of the House. It had also re ceived the support of many respectable Members of hit blajesre't-Goyeranseou He. heartily wished tbat., some of them would adopt it, and alter a full consi deeetion bring it before their Lordships ; Of course they would have every suggestion and assistance that could be afforded by the Noble Lords on his side of tie Howe. The great and substantial objection to the proposition, which arose from the adverse semi-- mews telt in a certain high quarter, could not bins panted now to operate. And with respect so the ols jectsons which had formerly been grounded on the fate of Europe, and on the temper of the Catholic mind, they could no longer have any force. The state of Europe at present was such as to give ir. resistible force to the arguments, for taking the &object into full consideration, and to the hope, that that consideration would be attended with sucoass. And as to the Catholic mind, the Peti tioas before the House sufficiently attested the mo deration of its temper. They were couched in the Most respectful language. They Shortly stated, that the Petitioners were deprived of the Constitu &mai privileges enjoyed by their fellow-subjects, and prayed to be admitted to a participation of them.— Ile allowed that some - - bad been made by , speicbes certain Catholics, in Ireland, and that a Paper bad been published by them, the tendency of which was highly injurious to the Catholic cause. The intem pers4 ee of those individuals had driven from the Cdt‘olie Meeting, Lord Fingal, and many of the siust respectable Catholics; who had found it DECO• % . . ..-• . . . . • ••• •- . ae#4* - Ili ' 'tit, - 'cry to Sensate 4 tilliesiva. ,-6f i z ier - -wharvo_ if • . ko ow rectal' tritHiquillity laid happia **km 'Weil' of the &kith Empire. *, The Noble Earl con.' If the Pape to fro be' abided, tbo Hansa a ect e dWs e et b a d a f i g h t to eas itt a tte The alddisd bi niovidg—ge That the House should, ea rly i l pee sons front whoM it tuteiseled, had directed their in the next Sessitin of Parliament, take into tons! . e. I eitulence against some of their best frieds add sop- ration . the . propriety of removing the . Civil Disabilities I'ren. They had proceedettth the nest disgrace- which . still . c . oritiale to press on his Majesty's loyal ul acts. they hid stigmatised the. Iralt Govern- Catholic subects." ment, the judges, and the Juries, only &cause they Lord LONGFORD :aid, the subject had been so 'all concurred in hunting oat the mordent.s of as re. often discussed, that he should lei va contented him spectable a Gentleman as eve' &wed in sty country. sell with a simple vote, but for same arguments The principal author, however, who was a disgrace which the N oble Earl had broug ht forward, and to the learned profession to which he belt:aged, was which had placed the subject in a new point of view. now where he ought to be, in safe custody , Was it The object of the motion i was to o litain a pledge necessary for him to go over again the catalogue of f rom this House to enter i nto enquiriesin respect to the dilabilities under which the Catholics laboured i the disabilities complained of. The pledge was of in 'They complained of being excluded from the most much consequence, that it was necessary the House important functions of the State; they wished to .be should not give it. But did not ti:e Noble Earl forget told for what crime they were so excluded ; thee that the giving of a pledge was ',early tantotemint asked what they had done to subject them to such thee' that an assurance that the disabilities should at some removed _.. respect to the Pe punishment I All he desired on their, part was in. future period be . ; I/i ith quiry—all he desired was, that their petitions should titions upon which the motion seas now made, they be fairly and fully considered by Parliament. That consisted of three ; First, that which might be called this ought to be done at soma time or other, he did Lord Trimlestown's body of Petitioners. Secondly, not believe that there was a single individual who that coming from the Clergy ; and thirdly, one corn would deny; he did not believe that there ever had ing from that part of the Catholic Body differing ih been an individual disposed to deny it, with the ex• their views from the other two. The Noble Lord option of a certain Doctor of Civil Low, now no i commented on the conduct of the Petitioners, and more, who when living seemed to take a peculiar asked whether their conduct was of such a nature as pleasure in talking of the pains and penalties to which to justify their hopes of having their demands con. the Catholics were, and in his opinion ought to re- ceded ? With respect to the Clergy's Petition, they main, subject. It had been conctiveJ by some per. seemed to be completely absorbed an requiring for sons, that because all the Catholics of Ireland had their Sody particular privileges. and to have forgotten ;not signed one and the same Pe icicle, there were the Veto altogether, He concluded with opposing the great differences of opinion among them. There. Resolution. might be se; but all that he soul t say was, that he' The Earl of ABERDEEN ceuceived.. that when did not know it. In the Petitions they all concurred Petitions presented to their Lordships were couched in complaining of the heavy disabilities wader which in proper and moderate terms, it was unsuitable to the laboured, and prayed to be restored to their their Lordships' dignity not to neat them with the rank in the State... It watteue that. the Petition from t utmost respect. The Petitions of the Catholics c o min g the Catholic Body at large stated nothing on the within that description, and relating to a question so subject of securities. But it could not on that account highly interesting and important to the whole Em be tonsidered as contradictory to any Petition, that pire, ought to receive from their Lordships the ful asking a restoration of rights, stated the terms (let lest and most attentive consideration. The Noble them be what they might) on which they conceived Earl who had just sat down, seemed to consider the these tights ?night be restored.. In the Petition which' motion as a proposed pledge on the part of their was agreed to at Lord Trinilestown's house, the Lordships to one another—as if they could not trust grievances of the Catholics were stated, the restore. to themselves without it. It was not so. Whoever lion of their privileges was prayed, a readiness was voted for the consideration of the subject, in the next expreised to agree to such regulations as might not i Session of Parliament, was of course ready to take be inconsistent with the discipline and practice of the subject into consideration at the present moment, their religion, and aft opinion was given that an ar. were it not for the state of the Session. The pledge rangement might be formed, satisfactory to all par- therefore was not to one another, but it was to the ties. In the Petition from the Catholic Clergy, so petitioners. This, however, the 1::t;lt; Earl would far froth negativing the offer of seem ites, a specific I per naps consider as gocd for nr.thi. Certainly it security, called by the Petitioners " domestic nomi.• was not of value to the Petitioners equal to nation," was pointed out. At the same time the that of granting tlitir requests ; but next to g ranteig Petitioners declared that they must rejects as contrary their requests, the assunince that th eir Lordships I to the principles of their religion, and as inadmissahle would take those requests into consideration, must with reference to their conscientious scruples, that he to the petitioners •th: most satisfactory pro species of security which had been so much talked of ceeding.—(Thar.) It would be a most valuable under the name of Veto, or in other words, a power concession on the part of their Lordships, and one to be possessed by the Crown of negativing the ap. which it would well become them to give. He pointments of the Catholic Bishops. This was an thought the Petitions of the Catholics and all Peti abstraet of the contents of the three Petitions. Ai: , [ions cn Religious subjects, had nu particular claims agreed in their statement of grievances, and their to attere!un more than any other, for it was the glory prayer for redress. One, that from the great body of or thit , country that every individual of every class Catholics, WAS silent on the subject of securities, but it.: ' a tight to state his case to the Government.... was not to be considered on that account es rejecting Religi o ns opinions had been pretty frequ qtly consi. 411. Another, that from Lord Triinlestoa Ws, ex der"f as the best criterion of political plineiples and pressed a readiness to eoneent to securities, :ruin political conduct, an .:pinion with which lie was not conviction that a satisfactory arrangement might be much disposed to quarrel, when he remembered how formed. The third, that from the Catholic Clergy, much the bigotry and religious tenets of Catholics although it rejected the Pete, yet spontaneously had formerly influenced their proceedings. He, how pointed out is specific security—domestic nomination. ever, thought a very great change had taken place On the subject of securities,, his (Lord Donsugh• in the Catholic mind, which he considered their Lord tame's) opinion was too well known to render it ne. ships were called to attend to. In all the discussions cessary to repeat it: So far back as the year 1793, which kid taken place on this subject, he had listened he was perfectly satisfied that the Catholics had given with all the attention he possibly could, but lie never all the security that ought to be expected from them distinctly remembered one solid objection against in the inlentn oath by which they were bound. In his their claims being considered. Probably it arose opinion it was ottt of thefr power to give a stronger flout a defect of intellect ; but he must again repeat, security. He had asked nothing further, and on that be saw no formidable objection, although he had he had been prepared to give them all the privileges heard enough of formidable language—(Hear, hear.) for which they asked. Such was his opinion; but He had heard the usual cry of the Church being in sooh had not been the opinion of many highly re. danger, but he was at a loss to perceive in whit re spectable individuals, and such had not been the opi- spects. Surely no man of the least understanding nion of the majority of both Houses of Parliament. could entertain any rational idea of the Catholics I With a laudable view to conciliate those who making proselytes. The fact was, the danger emitted thought that some additional security was necessary, in remaining as they now were. To go back to re the security of what was called " domestic nomina. new their disabilities they had already repelled, was tion," was now offered by the Catholic Clergy. The what nO man could dream of, for in truth it was ime offer was this. The Catholic Bishops and Clergy possible. No period could arrive more favourable to proposed—having no doubt of' obtaining the consent the cause than the present, when we were at peace of the Spiritual Head of the Catholic Church to the a ith the whole world, alter a most sanguinary con. proposition—that that head of the Catholic Church flict. The mind of the Catholics was also in a pro.' should bind himself to confer his spiritual benediction per state for the consideration of their case. 'The' on whatever person the Catholic Clergy of Ireland leading Power of Europe had admitted persons of all might elect as a Bishop ; and they proposed that a religious persuasions to a share in their Councils, and new oath should- be administered by the electors, by in the offices of Government, and he trusted that this which they should bind themselves not to elect any country would chew that we were no longer marked individual of whose loyalty they Were not assured. with illiberalitr. It had been said that foreign policy Surely this proposition would remove all objections. would not do in this country. This he admitted, but To him it appeared open to no doubt or cavil. Of he thought it was a cruel satire on the Constitution, the Catholic Clergy as a body all persons spoke with to say that liberality of sentiment, purely because it the highest respect. He defied any one to state that was adopted by foreigners, was not congenial to the during the late long war a single attempt had been Government. With respect to the Scotch Catholics,' made by any Catholic Clergyman in Ireland to Ins, ho assured their Lordships they were labouri ng un d er tient discontent or rebellion. On the ciarittfry, tieere'leardeltips of the Mir e4lling nature.' 'ln illustiation' were numerous instances of the interposition of the of this, he referred to the case of a Catholic Clergy., Catholic Ougy of Ireland in support of the laws. Man, tried last summer in Scotland for marrying two He did therefore most strongly recommend, that. persons.. He was tried on an Act of Charles 11. whenever the subject should be taken into considers: which punishes with transportation for life, and death , tion by their Lordships, or when it should previously in case of return from transportation, any Catholic be taken into consideration, uhe trusted it might be, Clergyman convicted of marrying any parties. The by his Majesty's Government, the domestic nominee charge being not proved, lie of course escaped. He n tio should bvadopted.as calculated to be satisfactory (Lord Aberdeen) mentioned this as a proof of the to all panics—as calcUlated on the one band to remove miserable state of the Scratch Catholics. He deci. the apprehensions entertained by those who bad hi, dedly thought the Petition worthy of attention, as he therte opposed the concessions to the Catholics, and on was totally at a loss to see any good policy in keep. the other, unlike the Ildo, not to raise the religious ing them down. Much bad been done fur our caun. and conscientious scruplei of the Catholics themselves. try by Catholic bravery, and it was extremely unjust Under the circumstances Which he had described, he to withhold from them a share in the privileges of really hoped that this would be considered a favour. that happy Constitution for which much of their able moment to set this question for ever at rest. He blood had been shed. He concluded by supporting trusted that the Noble Earl on the bench opposite the bintien would press forward on this subject. Adverting - to Earl BATHUR,ST could not agree to the motion. the Union, and to the circumstances attendant upon lie was astonished to hear their Lordships called on it, he (Lord Donoughtnore) expreised hiiiegreishat at this late period of the Session, to bind themselves, the means which bad been used to reconcile the par. as well as many of their friends who were abient, to ties interested to that measure, bad not been further the temsklemtion of so important a subject. During extended to the porpose of procuring an acquiescence the former discussions on this question, its fricuds,had in the claims of the Casbolics. Their Lordships Obi regretted that the time for taking irsinto consi. might then have seen among them the Earl of Fingal. *rata* was unfavourable. He certainly thought and other excellent amid enhghtined N(11)4111en 0114 file present to be unfavoura ble, and be would ask, Sister Country , assisting, by them " advent. to can, why bad therein& of Emancipation, as it was called, into abet such ;matures as might be atkolattit not brought it 02 earlier in the Sessigp t It could not 1 tweitaitotclolenvenience ;et'- , ., .. - , • . the ___„. • • arise (rail incuserente to question re . ~. A l , tlity of granting any inch pledge was ob ' " b the possib il ity of many of their Lordships ! tom I'KM : fro . their opinions during the reuse, and the unple situation in which they would then stand, g l ' „. any pledge was given , he thought their Le n in:: Ishvensullod do. G re a t taondoetholiet I vrere eifi v d e c° th u e n L y arisen Tram such pledges being given, W. ;t1 .lont it* nature being fully known ; and was it reasnnabk ave it c‘-esietent in their Lordships, to go on giving 'N i si pledges, notwithstanding th a t tip et i ence r 'j sequence would obviously be, the caching of ki t s expectations in the Catholi cs , an d the danger. ' 0 ; - much confusing were these expectations frustrated. rite question h id been repeatedly discussed year abet year, both in a time of war and re tim e • , 7 e of pe ace: i • It had been debated both as a p at ty question, an d l i e i ; as a party question; and he recollected well their Lordships iiad, contrary to their established custom,. adjourned the debates on it, to give more %pp m : nity of cling its merits. Would their Laadshiei think that th e speeches delive r ed on these oeeatio'n were totally unpremeditated, and th at no attent;cr : was paid to the subject, either before or after iii. Tering them ! He decidedly disapproved of o r , into any Committee, because a F o p e o f o b tain ' e full concession was excited, of whi c h t h ere was eret; probability of its being frustrated. He thought alp the Veto should be adhered to. He knew that ea this stibject a variety of opinions existed, brak e taw no propriety in giving any concession if this geni is adcrded to. His Lordship then entered into a det a il of the proceedings of the Clergy in Irelind, sa,l argued, that while they considered their Centel to he independent of the British Crown, it was imps; Bible to accede to their wishes. He did not see how ; the House could give any such pledge as tl:at *bids they were now called to do, and on that grof.:nd Le opposed the motion. The Dukeof SUSSEX, convinced as hehad always been, that the present question was of the first impor tance to the interests of the British nation, he had heard no argument this evening to dissuade him froth voting in support of his Noble Friend's motion. Pe. titions bad been presented in a respectable and con. ' stitutional manner to their Lordships, which, from i the lateness of the Session, they were pr e v ente d from considering ; and the question they had now to discusi with what was the most prudent mode they could possibly adopt ? The Resolution proposed by his Noble Friend went no farther then merely calling on their Lordships to declare they would consider the case of the petitioners nest Session. if their Lord. ships would at °tree say that they would hear nu pe- j titions, then their conduct in givi .g no promise would be right ; but if it be the birth-right of lititt:h 1131). 1 jeCts to petitioa, then certainly the conduct which he and his Friends adopted, in ceiling on theii Lind. ! ships to pay some attention to the petitions next Sts. , sion, was consistent. The able speech of the Noble ILorel opposite to him (Lord Aberdeen) in reply to the second speeker, precluded the necessity of his r making any remarks on that speech. It had been said, the. I discussion of that subject would occasion much tram:bless to the Magistracy of Ireland. Re. ligious disputes had been long known to be the cause' of much dissention, and even of crime, in that coun try. Differences of religious tenets had even shiel ded murder itself from punishment ;—a particular proof of which lately happened in a case of mute. der, where the Jury returned merely a verdict .of Manslaughter. He put it to their Lordships, whether, in this enlightened age, those outposts which the exigencies of for mer ages had probably called for, should still be allowed to exist, whether in fact they were not disposed toadopt such a proceeding as would conciliate the .afFeetions of all patties ! His opinion had always'been, and now was, that this was a question solely to be legislated by Parliament.' It was their duty to legislate with justice and imon; tiality, and if the parties refused to receive the boon which their Lordships might give them, with them, not with the House lay the blame. By a decisive vote their Lordships had adopted an Mien Bill; which severe as it would be on all Aliens, would per. titularly be se on the foreign Catholic. He was the more anxious to have this subject discussed when he considered the unjust distinction it made in the• re wards conferred by our country on those ):ernes vel , O had fought her battles. He specified the case of Count Nugent, who had lately been rewarded bf being appointed one, of the Makin Commanders cf the Both, in consequence Of his gallant deeds in arms. But lie had received that distinction as a foreigner, nut as a British subject, in consequence of his being a Lieutenant-General in a foreign regiment. Had he resided in this country it was impossible, in the present state of things, he could have got it. iit would ask their Lordships, was it possible to suppose die Irish would not feel the severe mortification of seeing themselves excluded from the cnjarment of their hard won honours, merely on the ground of their. religiests opinions ?—(h'ear, hear, bear.)-' And was it consistent with tneir Lordships well. known attention to the defenders of our country to sanction by the countenance of the present disabili tios, such a distinction r Tire case' of the Tdiplith' Catholics had, on a former night, been stated with co Much.eloquence and ability, by his much esteemed Noble Friend (Earl (ttcy), that he should feel he was weakening the cause, did he attempt to add any -- thieg to that luminous speech. But lie besought the Nable Earl at the head of tl:e Executive Government to recoliect that the objections he had formerly stated no longer existed. The country was now in a state of profound peace, and the spiritual head of the Catholic Church was no longer under the controul of that individual who had been removed from the Cone tinent -41:ear, hrtr.)—Let him look to the g ood policy of the Nethr rlands (the Constitution of which had been adopted by our advice), and be would then see that every individual had the right of aspiring to the highest offices in the country, without any regard to religions opinions. How we could sincerely ad vise that policy to be adopted in the Netherlands, and yet reject it here, was a point be was at a loss to comprehend, unless, indeed, we acted on the old adage, ~ don't do as I do, but dosas I say. " By agreeing to this resolution of his Noble Friend 1:1, r Lordships gave no pledge of granting any tonres along, but merely of taking the matter into serious fouciderAtioa. This was a duty they were imperi• wily called to discbarge, in justice to themselves and their oppressed fellow-subjects, and by attendier to it they would prootire the confidence of those wbo' 'bad tot