Star. — London, England, 1816-05-25 00:00:00

% I . ~ • ',bat wtp *ow pursued more recommended the Bill to the Treasury, but made it mortoppressive. ft, ought to be recollected, that thou; bit was only at Present threepence per head. who ctspliivay ,where it would stop ? The Salt Tax was n* at first 155. a bushel, Tor no Minister could have made such a preposition, nor indeed any people submit to it—so would it be on this occasion, until at length the bur dens Were laid oti, 4 6 straw by straw. until the camel's back was broken." Toe principle of this tax was h4lily objectionable—it wera directly to the . taxation , a an article of prime necessity, particularly affecting the lower classes of society.—(lkw,hclr, hear.) Mr. ROSE thought it was itupossible to raise a large revenue without taxing articles of general coesumption. He had always heen of opinion that it wits , better to tax property than consumption ;—. and. since the former was discontinued, the latter must be resorted to, or what was to become of the Revenue Mr. LYTTLETON thought the 'arguments of the other side of the House -very fallacious, and he could not sitifer the Bill to ,pass withnua entering his protest against it.. It appeared that Ministers were deterniined to propose such taxes as would make some people regret the abolition of the Property Tax. He believed, however, that it would be found tbat any property-tax would fall ultimately most severely on the poorer clasies. The Bill was titer read a third time and passed. WARR OF ADMIRALTY. Sir M. W. RIDLEY wished to have a question answered respecting a Noble Lott', the Marquis of Worcester. On looking at the Army List he per ceived that he was still an Officer in a Regiment of 'Hussars, though be had accepted a- situation of Commissioner of the Admiralty. Either the Noble Lord could not do justice to his situation in the army, or the situation of Commissioner was useless and should be abolished. Lord CASTLEREAGH was not prepared to answer the Hon. Baronet. Mr. ROSE gave notice, that on Monday next he should move for a return of the expenditure of the Trinity H , :use for the last ten years. Lord ALTHORP wished to know if the situation of the President of the Board of Controul was to be filled, as it had been vacant now some time. Lord CASTLEREAGH said that certainly the office would be tilled, as it had been one of great la bour when he held it, and still continued to be so. AGPICt'LTUIIZ. On the motion of Mr. F. Lewis, the House 'went into a Committee on the Agriculture. Mr. F. LEWIS intended to move an adjournment of the Resolution of. his Honourable Friend the Member for Esser, which had been under consilera tiOn by the Hou..e at the last adjournment f the Committee ; but before he did that, he thought it ' proper to mike an iibservation on the conduct of Committees above stairs. They had agreed to seve ral negative propositions, and had come to several resolutions on rape-seed, one of which, that which tended to the prohibition of the duty on that article, be hoped the House would agree with. With respect to Tobacco, he could not but believe that the duties ought to be cootinued, as much cf the r2venne might be lost by smuggling if they were in any way altered or taken off. Mr. BROUGHAM wished that the penalties on Tabasco should be taken off. He could see no reason wby the duties raised abroad in our Colonies could not, with equal propriety and effect, be procured from home:goon Tobacco, nor could he tell what his Hon. Friend, who spoke last, had metnt by the smuggling of that article. Prohibiting the growth of the article in this country was only giving a pre mium to the fanners of America. He, theretore, was for throwing open the cultivation to the farmers of this country. Mr. PRESTON was sure it was necessary to ad , .pt every measure for the relief of the aviculture of the country, which was in such 1 ruinous comb lions He was sae of those who voted for die Corn because he thought agriculture required it. He denied that there was any superabundance of grain in the country, and lamented the d e preciation. -: Lord CAS . TLEREAGH called the Hon. and "Learned Gentleman to order, the ciuestion was not about grain bat about tobacco. He wished the Re solution should be postponed. After' a fewfarther observations from Mr. Pareirres and Mr. F. Lawn, the Resolution was postponed. WOOL. Mr. FRANKLAND LEWIS said, he hadgiven notice on a former occasion, that he should move a Resolution for giving a free export to Wool. Since that time there had a great anxiety prevailed throughout those parts of the kingdom concerned in the woollen manufacture, respecting any alteration in the laws on such an important subject. The Coni mittee had not catered into extensive inquiries with regard to wool, and therefore he had not obtained as much information on it as he couldwish—but yet he bad sulßeient to convince him of the propriety of submitting a proposal to permit the export a of wool under certain regulations, as it would afford a pro tection to the woolgrower. On no subject was there ' t reater misunderstanding than concerning wool.— some persons even went se far as to think that there should be n register of all the wool shorn in the Itiogdom, to prevent the possibility of its exportation, arid they thought that effectually preventing the ex ortation of that article would be doing every thing for the prosperity of the country. But he would un. dertake to shew that the notion's of those persons were quite unfounded and erroneous. Indeed the preven tion cf the exportation of 1/QOI had been so injurious to that article, that while every other article rose in price, that had experienced very little advance. In the reign of Edward 111. the price of wool was SOs. a•tod ; and it had not advanced since that period in stay proportion to other'artieles. The exportation of it was not prevented nearly so early as was generally , supposed: not till 1660, and it was remarkable what a reduction of price It experienced immediately after the prevention. In 1677 there was a very able tract published on the subject, in which it was stated, that wool which before the prevention brought £l2 a pack, brought then but rel. When therefore it was considered that the anntial quantity of the wool in the country amounted to .upwards of a million of pads, it would,beseenhow injurious to-the national prosperity the measure of preventiogWas. He their amitped law a binary of tote pour alfalaush trod at . - •J different *ode, andshowed - that it was mut... lis England *eh on the`conatedt. In the year it awned, that, while English wool sold in nem. at 6d, a pours), it sold in France it 10d. and in some time after when it sold at 9d. is England, it sold it 14d. in France.. At the end 'of the American war English wool, which sold in England at £5 the pack sold in Amsterdam at 420. Now, it Mutt be asgreat disadvantage to the grower of wool to be prevented from obtaining so much• a bestet market than he could at borne. The manulactarers stated, that al lowing the exportation of wool would destroy the trade, but the monopoly of the home market for cloth wai the main prop of the trade, and of that, al lowing the exportation of wool would not deprive us. The whole annual value of the woollen manufacture of the country was twentreight millions, and of this there was exported but to the value of five millions, while a great part of even this was exported to Ireland and to our colonies. What danger then wasto be appre hended on *tits subject, when the export was but as 5 to 28 There was no monopoly of the raw materials of silk and cotton, and yet the manufacture and trade in those articles had increased prodigiously. The trade of silk had increased more than that of any ar ticle, except sugar or wine. The cotton trade had increased .° considerably that the value of it was more than a fourth part of that of the woollen manu facture. The cheapness of labour abroad was•ad duced as an argument, that if the exportation was permitted, the trade would be destroyed. But there Was much misconception on' the cheapness of labour. Our manufacturers were more skilful than dif ma• nufacturers abroad, and therefore were worth hi wages. Besides our vast accumulation of capital no other country could pretend to. Some persons main tained that there was something peculiar in English wool which would make foreign countries take it manufactured, if they could not get it in its raw state. Now if this could not be maintained, there was no ground for the prevention. Bet it was ep very absurd, that it was almost absurd to argue against it. The long wool of Romney Maish 'was peculiar to this country. But foreign nations dd without this wool, and yet have very fine cloth. All the manufactures of France and Spain are of short fine wool, and some of their cloth is as fine and as good as any of ours. Russia, Sweden, and Den mark, took none of our wool; and still they ma• paged to war their own cloth. Was it not then too much to ask our landed interest to give up the foreign market for their produce on such grounds? The Americans only traded where they got long credit ; and this they could get ne where but in this country, and therefore on the market we could depend. He should, therefore, propose a resolution to permit the exportation of wool, under such regulations as would ' afford protection to the manefacturer ; and would wish that the permission should be extended to Ire ' land; which, indeed, ought to be allowed, though England should not. Lord LASCELLES would not advert to former times, when the circumstances were quite different from what they are at present. No complaint had reached Parliament from the growers f wool, and he maintained it would be unwise and impolitic to sub ject so important a manufacture to any dangers from speculative views. Lord MILTON was far from thinking there would be any danger from the resolution. He argued at great length to spew the policy and ospoclicncy .t allowing the exportation of wool, and said that that measure had been recommended by Adam Smith, las one that would tend most materially to 'the pros perity of the country. If any law cramped any par ticular branch of industry, it would cramp the wealth of the whole. Lord CASTLEREAGH suggested, that as no ultimate decision could be come to on the subject this Session, it would be better to postpone the resolution, and let it lie over for next Session. ' Mr. BRAND wished that there had been a duty imposed on the importation ot rape seed; and thought that such a measure, if it had been adopted in time, might have prevented the alarming excesses which they heard had taken place its pm of the isle of Ely, as it would have enabled the farmers to obtain sufficient prices for their rape-seed to support the peer labcurers, who were now almost forced 'by hunger into outrage. Lord CASTLIMAGH. Mr. BRAND, and Lord Lets. =WM respectively explained. Mr. BARING complained of the long discussions and the agitations created in the public mind on seb jects of this kind; and he thought the business should be put an end to, and set at rest at Once. Mr. TJERNEY wished this business might be soon decided;—in order to afford an opportunity for bringing forward another subject of great importance which stood for that evening. Mr. F. LEWIS was equally anxious with other• Gentlemen to save time, and to dispose of the slues ! tion at once. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought the best way would be to postpone the qua• tion to a future Session. Mr. CURWEN said. whenever this propositiOn came to be discussed •be should give at hie decided' sm ammo. . • - 0 r i 47. 1 - btOORE wished to pot an end to the question as seen as possible. The original Mown was then negadved, the amendrueats having been previously withdrawn. The Committee was ordered to sit again on this 1 day sennight. • CIVIL. LIST. 'I The Report of the Civil. List Bill being brought up,' Mr. TIERNEY rose, to submit an Amendment to the House, on this important measure. He ob served, that, after the frequency with which he had delivered his opinions upon this general question, it would ill become him to-occupy much of their time. The Bill proposed to remedy the evilSwhich had existed for so many years, in the annual *ices* in the expenditure on the Civil List. The House well knew that Parliament bad been called upon to pay the ba lance of debt in this department, in a number of in stances, and now, by the provisions of this Bill, the recurrence of this evil was to be iprevented. • Well then, bow was this to be done i Why, in the'first place, it is proposed to separate the charges on the List s so as to make the ordinary expense* come within the ordinary revenue of tie Crown, which -amounted to the sum of A 1,088,000.. Now, by the Bill, the expenditure was reduced to 41,080,000, so that there me a sand surplorto be brought forward . ' ibr ocher, charges. The iht, prove* so of celisdl, iadieved of 0255,000 by the estintates the three COMMiliOnen a p pointed to regulate this business, so that the irhole ,amount of these two shine added together, drill be X 1,335,000. Then it uppers that the public will, brie to pay this addi tional 0255,000 at least, independent of a charge for a few thousands on the Consolidated Fund, which he did not intend . to notice particularly now, as it was comparatively unimportant to this argument. — It then became a question in what departments or in what items, it was possible to pare down the expen diture, and keep it a little withiti the means, and con sistent with the heavy burthens of the country, but the only plan which could possibly effect this, had been so frequently recoiomended by him in vain, that be should now be silent on the subject, because he 'saw that the House was determined to shut its eyes to a full and satisfactory enquiry, by selecting his motions for Committees whenever he had made them. In the arrangement on which this Bill is founded, it was proposed to throw out of the civil list certain branches of expense, for presents and the like; and trust to the votes of Parliament for them. However he might at one time have been disposed to approve this scheme, he now felt it to he ohjectionable, be cause it deprived the Crowe of one of its must pleasing functions, and he did not doubt that persons who might have made discoveries, or in any way lay a claim to the benevolence of the country, would feel more gratified with a gift from the Crown of the seine amount, than if it were the contested vote of Parliament. Besides, as this had always been the business of the Crown, he thought there must have been an impression that it would be so continued when the Estimates were made. The next feature in this Bill, which intruded itself upon the notice of the House, was the creation of a new office.— The person who was to fill this appointment was unknown, but it would excite some surprize when it was known that he was .to receive £l5OO a year for performing those duties which properly belonged to otaers, and for which they were paid. (Hear, hear.) — Here then it appeared that the very thing which he had recommended to be done by a Committee of that House, viz. an examination into the expenditure of the Cavil List, was to be done by an officer, specially chosen for the purpose. It was true, that he was to be limited to the departments of the Lord Chamber.' lain, the Lord Steward, and the Master of the Horse, each of whom had a deputy, who were highly re spectable, and entitled to great confidence. It was no answer, in justification of this new office, to say,. that the whole salary would be saved in the restric tion vihich it wculd impose on :he Civil List exptn diture : if £1 500 could be saved, it ought to go into the public service. If £l5OO must be expended in this way, £5OO from each of the heads of the depart ments, which were to be thus inspected, would make up the sum, and it was but fair that they should pay for having their duty performed for them.—(Hear, hoar.) In fact, the Lords of the Treasury should do this; but he supposed that the new officer would soon become as insignificant as the Char.cell:o of the Ex xhequer and the others for any of th.ise purposes, and the House would know nothing at all about him, ex cept on his application for his annual salary. (Hear.) He thought, by the plan proposed, the Crown would be made nothing but a burthen on the country, and ,it would be much better to give a sum calculated to ds&ray all the expenses of the kingly offices, and then it an excess should arise from some unanticipated cir cumstance, it would be proper to apply to the House on the subject ; bur, instead of this, the Noble Lord proposed to give a sum, in the way of a vote of cre dit, and then, at the end of the year, he w.ntld come forward and tell the House what was done with it. A better mode of proceeding would be for an esti mate to be presented of these probable contingent expenses, and he hoped some Member would propose a clause, to be introduced into the Bill for this pur pose. It was set forth in the Bill, that the excess was sometimes to be supplied by the contingent resources of the Crown, when, not by a vote of Parliament, or it was otherways to be provided for." Now, this was precisely what he objected to ; he denied that the Crown had a right to come to the House, till all its assets were exhausted. This Bill would still leave the droits of the Crown unappropriated, and Parlia ment might still have to delray the whole outgoings on the Civil Lists He knew he should be, told that the droits would be, applied to this purpose. It' so, why not put it in the Bill. He was aware that he might move that the whole of the droits be paid into the Consolidated Fund; but then he should be com pletely turned round on this point , and get nothing by it. However, he should move that the whole of the revenue, or assets, as he might call them, should be expended before Parliament were applied to, to dis charge any portion of the excess whatever. A pro posal of this kind was justified by the consideration that the House was now entering into a new bargain with the CrOwn. His Majesty undertook to defray all these expenses for 0100,000 a-year ; but lie can 'not keep to his ' engagement, and comes before the House in forma pauteeris, asking for further support. ,Such was the fact ; at was the Crown which came'to hem, they did not ger to -the Crown, aid they were l ielly justified in saying, in the first plaie, bring in lull your , funds, let us see what you have got, and then we will see to making up the deficiency—(Hear, hear), lOoking into the papers he found a 'Treasury minute,: directing the payment of 5t177,0000n account of ex , traordinary services. Now it appeared that there was' sum of seBo,ooowhich bad fallenae-the Crown front a Mr. Tioutbaek, be having died , without heirs. The Trustees were ordered to sell the Stock wbich had belonged to this individual, and - this sums, with the help of the Droits of 'the Admiralty, Made up the amount, with the exception of 47,000; and then there was an order for the payment of twenty thousand pounds for the building of a wing to the Prince I Regent's residence at Brighton, and fifty thousand pounds for furnishing he same.--(Hear, hear). — But after this came the most important of all : at the ,commencement of the quarter ending the sth of, April, there was a balance debt of £27,000, and tbe; enormous sum of 4141,000 additiooal debt was to be added to this, as the ',mess of that quarter, mak ing together £168,000, and this sum we public is to' be burthened with, though the Regent had been accommodated with £70,000 within the period of its accumulation, and Ministers knew, at the time this money was gives ter building and furnishing, that pita of this excess was already incarred.—(Hear, Near, kar.).How far the citimate of the Nobler • . Lord was to be depended upon, would be i t ." b ; the expenses of the first quarter after it was inad a 4 amounted to £416,000, or at the rate ot 81,651000. when the estimate had been ie1,335 OW for the -(Hear, hear.)— He kneW not how that ea,i nute had been mide, and he dare say that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had no satisfactory grounds nu which to fix his calculations ; this was precisely t h e thing which he (Mr. Tierney) complailed of. B a i t seemed that the new officer WAS to have the power G i examining ,prisons, papers. and records, nottu i eb , standing the cries of indelicacy towar:!s the Thron e , which the proposition for vest ittg a Committ ee o f that House with the same power had excited.—(B„,. hear.)—The Noble Lord must have got over his ddi, cate scruples upon this point before he could h og introduced such a system—before he could& a spy in the Royal kitchen, and subject the pew turte: l , t to an examination upon oath.—(Hear, and a lave.). He felt that the House was treated with indignity i A this proceeding, for, certainly, an invest:gat:on by a Committee of their appointment would be conducted with as much respect to toe feelings and cireurn. stances ot Royalty as the scrutiny of any saL d i t d Officer, whoni the Noble Lord e.iglit appoint, pro, vided he did his duty.-- (Hear,hiardsear).--Th e ß g h t Honourable Gentleman theta concluded by submitting his amendments, which, he observed, was, in fact, i t plain English, that the Crown should net come to Parliament for a single farthing till its lundsof every description were exhausted.--(Hear, hear, bar), Lord CASTLE R EA G H was surprised, that the Right Honourable Gentleman could shut his eye, upon the difference of expenditure on the pat of the Executive Government in times of peace and war. It was no less surprizing, that lie who, in his par4 l . mentary capacity, was so strenuous an advocate fee the regular and speedy audit of accounts, should be now so hostile to the appointment of a new officer, whose business would be to audit and commit the et• penses of the Civil List. But the Right Honourable Gentleman appeared to be in such bad humour with every thing dune by the House, or recommended by the Committees of the House, that the single circum. stance was sufficient to excite his disapprobation—. (Hear, hear.) —The Right Honourable Gentleman, also, with all his anxiety for public documenis, and official information, never thought fit to glance over a Treasury minute, from which he would have learned; as already stated by him (Lord Castle. reagh), that considerable reductions were already made, and a system of prospective reduction laid down, and that in the fifth class of the Civil List, including the Lord Chamberlain and I.6td Steward's Department, the Prince Regent had directed the suppression of upwards of sixty places—(ltar) It was unfair to take the April quarter as a criteria of future expense, for that was a period in which the incidental foreign expeases had occurred, in conse. quence of the winding up of the tear. He was not clear that he fully understood the Right fionourthle Gentleman's plan —( hear, hear, five) the (sup otitiou)— but as far as he apprehended. his view was, that fns own measure, as contained in she Dill, was far less expensive, and gate much less contralti to the Crown. (4 laugh.) The effect of the Right Hon. Gentle. roan's plan would be to withdraw the droits from tl e Crown, and Ihtis completely incapacitate the Etecto live Government from going on with iti public func tions, and further. give the Crown a enntroul over the public purse, by allowing it to dispote of those droits prospectively. The power ot. the Crown to the disposal of these droits was reserved even in the Prize Acts. But the amendment of the (tight Hon. Gentleman would take from the Crown the power of even giving what captors were entitled to, without the intervention of Parliament. But, said the Right Hee. Gentleman, what controul has Parliament ? To t h is he would answer, Parliament had the remedy in kr own hands, by its right to demand and obtain an ac• count of the droits before a single farthing was voted for this branch of the Civil List ; and his Bill proposed' two occasions in the year fur the exercise of that con. trout. He would state very generally how these Droits had been applied since the accession of his want Majesty, omitting, of course, distributions to captors. The sum of £2,822,000 was applied to the public 'service, 5e1.334.0(X) to the Civil List, £192,000 in grants to the younger bran Ches of the Royal Family, and only £200.000 to the wants of the Crown. This statement would satisfy even the most sceptical, that' there had been no abuse of the application of these contingencies' during the present reign. Why then did the Right Honourable Gentleman suppose there was any ground for a provision against an abuse which never existed ?—a provision too the effect of which would be to incapacitate the Monarch in the performance of his functions, and by the new controul' which it proposed to vest in Parliament over this casual revenue, went to earafis? the course of our juris prudence. ( laugh.) 'I be Rt. Hon. Gentleman cen aured the expenditure of &WOO() upon furniture for Brighton ; but how much more. was the sum necessary to fit up any of the royal palaces for the country fr• sidence of his Royal Highness. H's RoyaLHighnesr was the only Prince in Europe who resided, when out of town, in a house of his.own. He must give his warmest opposition- to this amendment, which was so monstrous to. propose to the Crown ;. the dis position, by anticipation, of money,. belonging not to it, but to the suitors in our Courts. Mir. TIERNEY, iii explanation, said his proposi. lion was to apply to the deficiencies of the Civil Lit. the residue of these droits, after the just claims ulna them were satisfied, and this the Noble Lord called paralyzing the whole system of our jarisitrudeoes.--• A laugh.) Mr. PONSONBY treated as nugatory the centrist!' given by the Noble Lord's Bill. Suppose a dee• ciency to exist=well, the House asks what was be come of the droits ? Why the Ministers advised the Crown to apply them in the manner most agreeable to it, and then Parliament must make up the defi• ciency.—T- 41 What," the Noble Lord timid oh w won't you pay the expense of foreign. embossing and other incidents of the public service i"• Why this would not, and indeed could not be resister: ; he would beseech the House for its own character, to have the substantial security of these holds. Was this a moment for exposing the people to additional ba thena a. When one part of the empire (Ireland) w•S declared in a state of bankruptcy, by the C,hancrl;cr of the Exchequer himself.—When Englaad 4:0111• plaited of distress even to misery,—(Haar, hearg)- - , was this, he would ask, a time for Parliament to s.a. dle the people tri;lt a, fresh load, us order to loa rf Pil" k• ince By S to I He viral tOt' its. e ve ezp Pen tke lay wa: sok tba t. on 1 col frii till co P° CI IC N