Star. — London, England, 1809-02-01 00:00:00

, 1411,107 - 7 - HOUSE OF LORDS, TUESDAY, lAN. 31. The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that he had received .1 letter from Sir David Baird, expressing his grati tude for the Lonour conferred on him by their Vote of Thanks for his conduct in the battle of Corunna. DUKE OF YORK. The Earl of SUFFOLK hoped for their Lordships' indulgence, while he troubled them with a few obser vations on a subject which was not properly before the House. He observed, with infinite pain, the daily attacks that were made on the conduct of the Illus trious Person who was at the head of the Military Establishment. So far from there being any founda tion for such condemnation, he was persuaded that it was owing to the constant exertions of that Illustrious Person that the army had attained a perfection in point of discipline that it never possessed before. It was owing to this admirable quality that it was ena bled to make a retreat of 480 miles, in the face of a superior army, and exposed to privations of every kind. So anxious was the Commander in Chief for the improvement of the discipline of the army, that he knew an instance in which a Lieutenant-Colonel was compelled to sell out, in consequence of his being incompetent to the duties of his situation. The No ble Earl concluded with expressing his approbation of the Military College, an institution much wanted, for which the country was indebted to the Illustrious Person at the head of the army. The Duke of NORFOLK expressed his regret that he saw none of the Ministers on the opposite benches, having come down for the purpose of alicertaining when the Treaty, alluded to in his Majesty's Speec!!, as having been concluded with Spain, was to be laid before the House. If lie did not receive any satisfac tory information on this point in the course of a few days, he should mako it the subject of a specific mo tion. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, he should certainly apprize his Colleagues of the wishes of the Noble Duke, and he had no doubt but they would give him the desired information. Some orders relating to Appeals were made, and the House adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The SPEAKFR acqtainted the '2ouse that he had received a letter from Sir David Baird, in answer to the communication he had made to that gallant Officer of the Vote of Thanks passed on Wednesday last to him, and the Army under his command, which he should now read accordingly. It shortly expressed the thanks of Sir David to the House for the honour thus conferred on hint and the Army under his contrnaild, and a high sense of the appro bation of Parliament. It requested the Speaker to make those sentiments known to the House, and particularly thanked him for the very polite and flattering manner in which he had conveyed the sense of Parliament. The Sheriffs of London presented at the bar a petition from the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, &c. pKaying a Bill to allow further time for the purchase of houses, and other operations necessary in widening the entrance to the City at Temple Bar.—Petition re ceived, and referred to a Committee. Alderman SHAW presented a Petition from James Jackson and James 1\ T‘Gosvan, praying a Bill to protect them in theexchl sive rights of an invention to secure woollen, cotton, and paper manufactures from mildew, and render them impervious to rain. —Referred to a Committee. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the thanks of the Movie to the Rev. Charles Probv, Chaplain of the Hoop., for his Sermon preached before ;hem yesterday, at St. Margaret's Church.—Agreed to. IRISH MILITIA. Sir ARTHUR WELLESLEY gave notice of t g motion on to morrow, for a Bill to enable his Majesty to accept Volunteers from the Irish Militia into the Line, to a certain extent. Mr. 13ANKES ga. e notice of a motion on to-morrow, for a copy of the warrant which appointed Mr. Lynd Conservator of the interests of Scotland in the N •therlands, with a view to see how that warrant bore upon the appointment cf an Honourable Member for Pool?, to the office of his Majesty's Consul-G4Seral for Portugal. Mr. CANNING presented a copy of the warrant appointing Mr. Jeffery of Poole Consu:-3eneral for Portugal. KING'S ADVOCATE. Sir CHARI.ES POI.E asked whc:her there was any intention of dividing the labour of the of ice of King's Advocate ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was not aware lint any chanv of the nature allotted to was in contemplation. 'the proce..dings of the Court of Inquiry to whom the consider ation of the Armistice and Convention cf . Porte/al were referred, were laid on the table, and crdered to be Fri:Acct. SCITLY. The- CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the order of the day for the House to resolve itself into a Committee of Supply, and that the speech of the Lords Commissioners be referred to them. Ordered, and the House vesclved accordingly. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER woved a resolution, that it be the opinion of this ' Committee, that a supply be granted to his Majesty. Mr. PETER MOORE rose to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman, now for the third time, whether the House was to expect the production of accounts, shew ing the expenditure of the supplies of he last year, before it was called on to vote new tupplies ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER answered, that the Honourable Gentleman could hardly expect the production of all those accounts to which he alluded, before the House was called on for the vote usual in the first place every Session, that a supply be granted to his Majesty. Without any necessity for interposing such a delay in the usual vote of a supply; if there • was any paper or account t delayed unnecessarily, he should be ready to give to the House and the Honourable Gentleman any infor mation necessary, or to explain the caatse of such de lay. He begged leave to refer the Honourable Mem ber to the Act of Parliament, which required that all accounts of supply and expenditure be laid on the Able before a certain day, which day was yet very emote ; and it would be time enough fur the Hon. Member to complain, when any account was delayed .c , yond that day. Mr. P. MOORE replied, he was aware of the re urn'required by the Act of Parliament, before a cer ain day ; but that was no reason why the accounts hould be withheld until that day. The Honourable entleman was lout new in his office, or he would not aye argued thus. He s no reason whatever why e public accounts of the last year should not be on. e table before the 15th of January. The accounts f the Customs and Excise were regularly made up . v the first Monday in every month, and ready to be elivered on the Wednesday ; he could see no reason by the same regularity and dispatch should not be forced in every other department, and he thought e House should vote no neer supplies until those mints were brought forward, and full time given examine every item, if it was for no other reason than operate as a spur to the promptitude of Ministers. The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER d, that although the receipts c,lthe Custosns and neaos of expenditure - Imre infinitely more extended, and could not be acquired at i few officer. He would assure the Honourable Gentleman, that the accounts necessary for the information of the House, under each head of expenditure, should be forthcoming enough for examination, 'before any supply was posed under such head. The vote passed, and was ordered to be reported to-morrow. VIE COMMANDER IN CHIEF. Mr. WA RDLE wished to call the attention of the House to the subject appointed for the investigation of the Committee to-morrow, in respect to his Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief. He. understood that some of the witnesses whom it would be neces sary for him to examine touching this inquiry were not now in London, particularly Major Kqight and Major Brooke : and as he wished to adduce such proofs as would place the truth of the statement he had made to the House beyond the possibility of doubt, he trusted the House would not expect him to' go through the whole of his case without the atten dance of those witnesses he thought necessary. Ho was ready, however, to go into the inquiry to-mor row, or any other day the House thought more pro per, with such witnesses as were in readiness to attend. But he hoped the House •would indulge him with some further delay in respect to those points, to esta blish which the necessary witnesses might not be im mediately forthcoming, and permit him to move for .my additional witnesses to these he had already' named, and whom he should deem requisite in the; progress of the business. The witnesses, for whose attendance to-morrow he should now move, were Lieutenant-Colonel Knight, of the sth Dragoon Guards; Major Brookes Dr. Andrew Thynne, 'of Berner -street; Robert Knight, Esq. of Dean-street, Audley-square; and Mrs. Mary Anne Clarke, of Westmoreland-place, Sloane-square. Those several persons were accordingly ordered to attend, as was the proper person from the office of Messrs. Cocks and Biddulph, Bankers, with their banking-book for July last. It was also ordered, that Mr. Biddulph, a Member of the House, do attend in his place to-morrow. DEBTORS IN EQUITY. Sir SAMUEL R@MILLY, pursuant to notice, rose to bring forward his motion for leave to bring in a bill for extending to debtors, confined upon the or ders of Courts of Equity, the benefits of the Act of the 32d Geo. It. commonly called the Lords' Act. The Learned Member shortly explained the nature and objects of this bill. P r e v i ous ly to t h e passing of the Lords' Act, the creditor WAS entitled, by the common law, to confine his debtor for life, or until his debt should be liquidated, without making him any allowance whatever. By the Lords' Act it was ordained, that every debtor, confined for sums not exceeding a certain amount, should be entitled, upon affidavit of the fact, to claim from the creditor, at whose suit he was confined, a pittance for his maintenance of per day,tobe paid him weekly, on a certain day, and any default of such payment entitled the debtor to his liberation. By subsequent Acts of the 33d and 37th of his present Majesty, this allowance was increased to sixpence ; but the relief was in no case extended to persons confined for non-payment of equity debts, and who were attached for contempt of Court, in consequence o such non-payment. The object of his bill, therefore, was to extend the relief to such per sons, notwithstanding any law to the contrary. Leave was given to' bring in the bill. VICTORY AT CORUNNA. Lord CASTLEREAGH, after expressing his re gret that the name of an Honourable and gallant of-' ficer was, by 'mere inadvertency, omitted in his mo tion on Wednesday last, for the Thanks of the House to the Officers of the British Army at tile battle of Corunna, moved, that the Thanks of the House he returned also to Brigadier General Crawford, fin. his gallant conduct on that occasion. Agreed to 'rem con. CLOTHING CONTRACTS. Mr. H. THORNTON adverted to the subject of certain contracts of a former year for supplying the army with great coats, which was brought into dis cussion towards the close of the last Session, by an Honourable Colonel opposite to him (Colonel War dle), and rose now for the purpose ofn moving that there be laid before the House the copy of a letter of the 2:lth of June, 1803, addressed from Messrs. Pearse and Co. army clothiers, to his Royal High ness the Commander in Chief, the production of which he was confident would vindicate the conduct and character of those respectable persons from the obloquy which had been thrown upon them by the Honourable Colonel, and prove that the statements on which that Honourable Gentleman had founded his motion, were completely erroneous. Indeed he had hoped th at t he H onoura bl e Member himself, now that he was apprized of the circumstance, would have been forward to acknowledge his error, and do justice to the characters and feelings of those Gentle. men, fur the injury they had sustained from his state ments. He moved ibr the letter above stated. Colonel WARDI.E said, he felt himself taken by surprize in this motion of the Honourable Gemle-1 man. He, however, felt confident, that the letter in, question, so far from exculpating the conduct of those persons, would render it still blacker ; as he could prove that they, had no scruple in falsifying upon one page of their books, when it served their purpose, that which they asserted on another, and that the public suffered great injury from their conduct. After sonic further conversation, in which Messrs. THORNTON, HUSKISSON, WART:LE, and the CHANCEL LOR 01 the ExcriNuEtt took a part, the motion was withdrawn, and fresh notice given for to-morrow. SIR JOHN MOORE. Mr. WHITBREAD wished, before the Order of the Day was read, to ask the Noble Lord on the op posite Bench, vhether there was any probability the public would be gratified with the publication of any part of Sir John Moore's dispatches ? From what fell irons the Noble Lord on a preceding evening, he was taught to expect there would be no objection to pub lish certain parts of these dispatches. He had looked with great anxiety to Saturday's Gazette, and was disappointed to find they did not appear in it. Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that the Ho -1 nourable Member had anticipated what he intended to mention before he sat down. The purpose for which he chiefly rose was to ascertain from an Hon. Member on the opposite bench, the nature of the no tion respecting Spain of which he had given notice for Monday sennight. The period of iiscussion being rsci mime ; tf was very desirable for Loth 'sides of the House to be put in possession *of all the preliminary infiarmation that was necessary. • They would be the morecothpetent to c wile to a fair decision, by possessing tbo..instructions on which the camgaign was carried , on. On thepart of Government, there would be no ob jection to granting copies of these. The only restric tion they wished to make related to pending instruc tions ; and copies of these he heped - to be able to lay before the House while the other papers were pre paring. Ministers were as anxious as the Honourable Member for•the discussion ; as it would' much forward the business, if the necessary information was obtained, he trusted that. the Honourable Member would frame a Motion with a view to that object. He would be happy to communicate in private with him on the subject, and to facilitate his object by every means in his power. With respect to the ques tion put to him on the subject of Sir John Moore's dispatches, he regretted that it was not possible for him to gratify the Hoaourable Member's curiosity. Those dispatches he considered as private and centi dential. They were marked so on the back of the letter—They were so declared to be in the body of the dispatch. It was distinctly left to the discretion of Mi nisters to publish such parts of them as they pleased, 'or to withhold them altogether. It certainly tvai the wish both of himself and his colleagues to gratify the public and the friends of that gallant Officer with ex tracts from the dispatches, but they found it so diffi cult to select such parts as it would be prudent and proper to publish, that they were under the necessity of wholly relinquishing the design. After the letter relating to the lace event in 'Spain, there was nothing in Sir John Moore's dispatch necessary to be made public in the Gazette. Upon mature consideration, he was convinced that it could not, with any pro priety, be brought forward as an insulated produc tion. He wished, however, to gratify the friends of that gallant officer as far as possible. Their object, he presumed, would be obtained if the dispatch should become public in any way. He had no objection that it should 'be produced as part of the correspondence necessary for the discussion of the conduct of the war in Spain, though he must still adhere to his objection of publishing it in the Gazette. Mr. PONSONEY had no objection to state the general purpose of his motion. It would be for a ge neral inquiry into the conduct of the Government with respect to Spain, and the manner in which the campaign has been conducted in Spain. If the Noble Lord conceived there were any papers that might render further inquiry necessary, it was within his discretion to move for their production. Mr. WHITBREAD said, after what fell from an Hon. General on a forme r evening, and what was known to be the wish of the friends of Sir John Moore, he had been induced to entertain hopes that certain parts of his dispatches would be published. At the same time, he agreed, with the Noble Lord, that it might be improper they should appear in the Gaztve, He was happy, however, to hear from him that there would be no objection to their being produced in an other form. General STEWART stated, that Sir Iola! Moore, in delivering his dispitches to him, observed that they were prvate and eonfidentiiil ; but that Ministers were at liberty to publish any parts of them they might think proper. CONSUL. CE!•:ERAL IN PORTUGAL. Lord FOI.KSTONE wished to be informed if any salary, payable by Government, was annexed to the office of Consul General in Portugal, accepted by a Member of that House ? Mr. Secretary CANNING stated, that the emolu ments of the office alluded to formerly arose from the Consular fees only. These fluctuated with the cir -cumstances on which they depended: They some times rose to £4OOO a year ; they were at times as low as £l5OO. This variation had ltd to an enquiry, Which terminated in the adoption of another mode of managing these establishments. It was determined to add to the salaries of some, and to diminish those of others, with a general restriction that the persons filling them should not be permitted to trade. 'Upon _this plan the Consul-General for Portugal was to be allowed £l5OO a year, payable out of the Consular fees, besides a fourth part a the fees exceeding that sum, as an inducement for activity in collecting them. If the fees should fall below Al XOO, which was by no means probable, Government was engaged to make up the difference. Mr. TIERNEY wished to know whether it was un derstood that the Hon. Member was personally to dis charge the duties of office ? Mr. Secretary C.A.NNINO replied, that there cer tainly was no intention that the Honourable Member should not discharge the duties of his office. He re peated that he was to receive no payment in the na ture of a salary, except the fees fell short of 15001. a year. THE ERFURTH OVERTURES, Mr. Secretary CANNING--" I rise, Sir, for the purpose of moving an Address to his Majesty, thank. ing him for having laid before this House the papers containing the Overtures of Negotiation, transmitted to this country from Erfurth, and the answers return ed from this country, and assuring his Majesty of the determination of this House to support his Majesty in the further prosecution of a war, after his Majesty found it impossible to conclude that war with honour, and restore the blessings of peace with security. I feel, on this occasion„ but little reason to apprehend great difference of opinion among Gentlemen of this House. I feel that what is likely to be questioned is not so much the principle op which we were guided, as the conduct of Government in the proposed nego tiation. Whatever doubts and hesitations may be felt, I feel confident that no individual will stand up and say, that by any other conduct that cotfid have been justified to the House and.the country, the result. of these communications would have led to negocia tions On any admissible basis of a peace. So far in deed I lose much of anxiety, and the subject much of interest. The determination of the enemy must be obvious to every man. It cannot be shewn that in the management of these communications any thing was omitted, or any principles admitted that were dangerous to our great objects ; nor that any oppor tunity was taken or wantonly seized td shut the door against pacification. Gentlemen may discover grounds of criticism, but, I am confident, not of blame.— There is this singularity in my present situation, that had I been called upon immediately after this transact. Lion, I should have had to refit to few other topics ; for is there any body who does not remember what were then the feelings of the public on this ith'en. If there was any suspicion of fault, it was ratlerilin we might have been entrapped into a dangtro.is net gociation. It was singular that they p w re h v o al t i v a : g re f il t : ianis before for negociation, always for ti ids of p en ",, , yet almost universally - concurred, that, in this i n stance, there was no question of the it to dud de: v . sion. We differed a little from the and thought that however delusive were the offers the enemy, lye would ascertain, beyond doubt, th e possibility or a chance •f peace. Had we . &off ere d time and opportunity to he gained by the enemy by protracted negociations, the consequence s might hav e been extremely dangerous. When I consider the po. culler circumstances of the time—when I call to re a mind the state of things under which the meeting .'i - Erfurth took place, I must confess that it appears t 5 me that there were sufficient ground, to justify Miiiin ters in expecting something from the joint overtone ; was it not to be expected that Spain had become a subject of deliberation in this meeting at El ferth ? Was it not to be expected, either that its independence was there acknowledged, or that its deem was then! scaled ? This opinion was farther strengthened by the uniform policy of the Court of Petersburg;,, which, from reasons unnecessary to be here &tailed, has invariably testified an unusual degree of svitp i . thy for Spain and Spanish interests. Upon dar e! • rounds, therefore, we were led to presum e , that the Emperor Alexander had remonstrated at Erfunle and that fiom respect to his remonstrances, and from are prehension of the consequences, Bonaparte had b an compelled to humble his lone—to concede 'in some degree from .his . former pretensions, and to infer negociation to England and Spain. Let no one iin pute to us, that in this expectation' we were not war. ranted by sound mason. We expected nothing from the generosity, nothing from the justice of the French and anssian Sovereigns ; but we expected from the one some regard to his personal safety, some consi. deration of his selfish interests, and we expected from the other, his characteristic prudence in sub mitting to circumstances. Ministers, therefore, were not without hopes that the overture might lead to l some successful conclusion. Under this impression they returned their answer, requiring that the acting 1 Government of Spain, described as• it had describq itself, acting in the name of Ferdinand VII. should be included as a patty to the negociation. We did not, as I before said, demand that . Spain should be idnnti tied with England. We did not demand that she: should be merged in the.eti porsidais of England, but we demanded for her that consequence, that recog nised existence to which as a nation in arms she. was en titled. It has been objected by some, that France could '• not in any way have given this negociation, and that she necessarily returned her negative. Why could she return} no aniier answee Cireld not the French GO vernment have said, we wilt not recognize the Govern ment in a'pain as a preliminary, out we will admit the, propesal into discussion l . Could not Beinanarte have repiaal, that he • would reconnize the government of Sonin, de n rncre, an we would, on our part, recognize its brother as king, de fecto ? There are innumerable precedents in liiianev, bpth ancient and, modern, of these admissions i/efarto and zeservatiOns d:jsere. In the wars of the Spanish succession, the Contedcra.tes and Louis XIV. repeatedly treated upon this princi ple. In the wars of the Netherlands, the Generels of Philip the Second used their discretion in the same manner. Nothing, infact, has been more usual than these reservations of right—than these treaties, found ed on existing circumstances, with an annexed stipu : lation, expressed in implied, that though admitted, in fact they should not conclude on the right. The an swer of the French Government, however, was very different ; it not only rejected our demand in favour of allies, but repelled it in terms or insult. It cha racterized those allies as insurgents.. It was now, therefore, time to terannae the negociation, as we could not proceed in it without abandoning our allies—insurgents ! Insurgents against whom ? —I would ask.—Against Joseph Bonaparte. If we had• continued the negociation, we must have sanctioned this. opprobrious name, v.-e mutt net have only abandoned the interests, but nmst have extinguished the very name of Spain. And as if his meaning wanted illustration, or rather that his insult wanted point, lie would compare the insurgents of Spain with the Catholics of Ireland. It cannot be supposed, that in this mention of an opprobious term I imply even a monientary admisssion of its justice; but it is necessary to the indignity of my argument to mark the difference. If the Roman Catholics are re bels,- to whom are they rebels ? To his Majesty George the Third—to - a King both de facto and dr .- jure--- z ,to a Sovereign complete in possession as in . right. It would be the. extreme point of absurdity, therefore, in France, or any other Government, to re cbgnize such insurgents as an effective party or ally, .or to demand that they should be to recognized in a nerciation. But was this the relation of the Spa ' nish insurgents with Joseph' Bonapair ? Was he complete either in possession or in right ? Some gentlemen have been pleased to produce .another .objection ; that the title of Ferdinand the Seventh was in itself questionable,' and that it was not ,worth a contest to maintain it. It is an established principle 1 in political intercourse to acknowledge, that Govern meat which we find to exist. We have no right to into-meddle with the chosen forms of Government,. or the elected governors of another nation. In our intercourse with them we must take them as we find them. All the Provincial Councils of Spain concnr red in acknowledging and proclahnini Ferdinand the Seventh. rknow that we live in times when the , spirit of innovation.is abroad ; but if we must reform, let us reform at home; let us not elect ourselves into the reformers of other nations, and consider them at only worthy of our contempt, because-they may be a century behind ps in science and philosophy, because they may have retained prejudices of which we have divested ourselves. The memory of the French Re volutien is surely not yet so wholly passed from our minds, as to leave us enamoured of these reforms.— . io r etinarlanl operations inn ; scrnds For inconsiderable lye a t , liberty, The spirit of innovation, once abroad, is not easily who shall bound its th co a nf t e i ss p d re la fe t r l e h x o is l t d . ° d l r vil e l ad pa't ,an t, and that exist in and known evils to such as are possible and unknown. We took up the cause of Spain as tathtiea,kathndatstthilel reforms.lceauusetoormspp:iln,evea we found it ; we thought we' had no right to 'dic-, Nor did we separated from her Govninfatent, so bad as it has pleased some Gentle men in other debates to represent it ; Spain bad at IV ;:. • IN that 111 as Act., so Ts (.1* in th e th erect Y by c c t lave • 'l' Pe' V zny g (,1 t 5 iris. le rL'S ; le a sl enet: hers! 2ned ti 'led, rp l . jlt!e t the ,and ar, be. n onie Offer War. rant anch Da.i. cted suh- ,vere d to csien i b ~ d euid did d that and, cog- s er.- ould that she Go- :n-n- -t have it of ;nize -able :, of In .• rates inci- !rals alre than und- Li pu- d, in very Your cha. now, ning t4ll ? If have 11,1VC f his Lista :s of be term