Star. — London, England, 1816-03-06 00:00:00

_~.~ . e metliaie vicinity of Edinburgh), were brought up, read, andordered to lie bn the On the iseestionthat the Petition from Horsham against the Property Tax should be lead, Mr. HURST stated that this Petition (which he presenteahk would be teund to contain complaints on the subject of the Civil List. He expressed his en tire coneurieece in the whole contents of the Petition. Sir C. BURRELL wished to set the Houle right on the sobject of the Civil List, that no unfounded notions might go abroad concerning it. This List did not contain. exclusively the sums called for to support 'the expenses of the Court, but included items for various necessary branches of the public expend; • ture. As to the Property Tax, he expressed his cOniplete disapprobation of the proposal for its con tinuance in any degree, during the present extreme distt cis of all classes of the community. To press upaoi the people with this Tax during their present calamities, would have the same ruinous effect upon the nation at large, as is produced upon a Bank when what is called a run is made upon it, while suffering from some tempcirary difficulties, The Petition was then' read, and ordered to lie on the Table. Mr. THORNroN presented a Petition from the. inhabitant's of Clapham, against the Property Tax. He 'toted, at the same time, that he would not trouble the House with any statement of his opinions respecting the continuance of this tax, because be • did not think it was the proper time to do ;o, until the regular debate upon it; when he had heard the proposal of the Chancellor of the Eichtquer.— Until then, it was not the proper time to discuss the expediency of the measure ; and he could not but think that the course Which had been pursued, of delivering opinions upon it, before the regular time for doing so—before it was even known what altera tions were to he ' imposed, was entirely subversive of the deliberative functions of Parliament. For his own part, he should only now say, that unless the Tax was very much modified, as it affected especially the Agricultural interest, he could not agree to it. Lord MILTON was surprised to hear the Ho nourable Gentleman say that it was not a proper time to discuss this Tax on presenting Petitions against it from all quarters. He would like to know what was to be considered the proper time for the discussion ? Were they to wait till the Chancellor of the Exchequer actually imposed the Tax ? The Petition was then read, and ordered to lie on the Table. Sir ALEXANDER DON, on presenting a Peti. tion from the Landholders of the County of Rox burgh, on the same subject with the other Petitious which had been presented, wished to call the atten tion of the House to the very moderate tone of the Petitioners. They did not pray for the absolute re peal of the Property Tar—they did not even hint at that consummation devoutly to be wished for," the total abolition of the Tax they only asked that it might be so modified as to remove those grievances so heavily experienced by the Landed Interest, from the way in which it was now levied. He could scarcely hope, under the circumstances in which the country was now placed, that this Tax could be to tally dispensed with ; but his expectations would be dis%rpointed—the expectations of Scotland would be di:al:pointed, if the Landed- Interest was now to be pressed upon with the burden of this Tax, as heavily as during the war. On the question that this should be read, Mr. BROUGHAM did not rise to oppose it, but to express his approbation of the moderate tone of the petitioners—a tone so very moderate, that, in fact, he thought sorre of the moderation could have been dispensed with, and they might have ventuted to state their real feelings and opinions on the subject. It might perhaps surprize the Honourable Baronet to hear him say, that he very well knew what were the real feelings and opinions entertained by the coun try Gentlemen in the county from whence the peti , tion came ; bet he would state a fact which would explain how be knew that the expression of these real opinions would have carried these Gentlemen a little beyond the very moderate prayer cf ais petition. some years ago he had the honour of a very confi dential communication with the landholders of that part of the country, on the subject of the distresses under which the agricultural interest there laboured, especially from this Tax; and he had at the same time attended a meeting of the principal men in the county, held for the purpose of considering the most eff,ctual means of relittv;ng those distresses. The principal subject of complaint then was against the Tenants' rroperty Taxi and those of the Assessed Taxes, in ti.e schetide B. At this meeting it was proposed to draw up a petition to be presented to Parliament, mentioning their distresses, and praying to be heard by Counsel at the Bar of the House. This was in 1808; and he ought also to state, that be had been a party to these proceedings in the capa city of Counsel for the County. Some years passed away without any thing farther being done. Having taken occasion to express his surprise to one of the Gentlemen of the County, that the Petition had not yet been presented, be was informed by him that the design had been for the time abandoned—" For (said he) my countrymen, I am ashamed to say, are afraidnf giving offence to at •Noble Lord (since de. erased) who, with his friends, engross the whole ma nagement of the political affairs of Scotland." And skis it was which caused the suppression of that pcti. tion. The House, after this statement, would not be surprised to hear him say, that the real sentiments of the petitioners would have been expressed, if the tone of the petition had been somewhat less moderate. Mr. W. DUNDAS said, that the Honourableand Learned Gentieman who had just sat down had taken upon himself a task quite new to the House. Though the Honourable and Learned Gentleman was not now Counsel for the Petitioners, he took upon him. self to state their real opinions. Did the Honourable and Learned Gentleman pretend to know what were pow the sentiments of these Gentlemen 1 It was ar rogating somewhet too much for bins to say to the House- 4, This Petition now presented to you does not contain the expression of their real feelings and opinions—you must not believe what they now say-- I know much better what they think—l held meet ings with them seven years ago—l know what they thought diens and therefore you refer to me, and - not to their own words, if you would know what they now wish."—(Hear, hear)—Nli is ht not the pres stire•which time upon these persons us 1808 have been since relieved'? But if the House was to believe the Honourable and Learhed Gentleman, in 1808, the landholders of Roxhurghshire - bound themselves by an opinion from which they can never, for all time hereafter, never, under any change of circumstances deviate. ' ['he lohourable Gentleman complained of the tune of this Petition. but he would ask who dictated the opinions said to have been expressed in 1808 ? In short, it would seem that no credit was 'to be given to the Petition, but all to the HOMVAT• able and Learned Gentleman. Mr. 1341OUGHAM said, the rules of debate pre. vented him from answering the Honourable Gentle. man by speaking on the present question ; but, be would take the very first opportunity of vindicating himself from his attack. Alter a few words !foul Lord blwrou, the Peti tion was brought up. and on the question that it should be read. Mr. BROUGHAM said, that a more extranr dinary mode of attack than that which had been used agiinst him by the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Dundas) be had never heard. In the first place he had thrown out a pretty broad hint that he objected to the tune of the Petition, because be was not now. employed as Counsel for the petitioners. Was the Honourable Gentleman not aware—supposin4 that such a feeling could be admitted into the mind of any man—was he not aware that it was not possible for any Member of that House te act in the capacity of Counsel for any set of men in any matter before that House ? The Hum Gentlemin then said that he took offence at the moderate tone of this petition ; he did no such thing. He took no offence at the language of it; but he ventured to state that the prayer of die petition only went half way in expres sing die opinion of the petitioners ; because it did not ask for that which alone could afford them relief.— And he said this too—ahat this moderation of tone was caused by a fear of giving offence in a certain quarter. He meant no insinuation against the con , duct of the petitioners; he only said that in the quarter l of the kingdom whence this petition came, the peo ple were under improper political influence—that in Scotland the rights and liberties of the subject were not so Mild) ill the stihj , :ct% chvn keeping as in Eng land. The Honouralile Gentleman would not need any more particular expianation •as to the quarter whence that influence came, cf vt hich he now com plained. The warmth evinced by the Hon. Gentle.' men, was the strongest commentary upon his state-, meat ; and it was for the information of the House, that he now stated, that in Scotland there was no thing like a due representation of the people; no such thing as a popular election was known in Scot land. In the towns, the cities, and the counties in that part of the kingdom, the elective franchise was monopolised by some twenty individuals—in many of the couuties there were only thirteen electors — in the most extensive counties not above 90 or 100,' and only one or two in which there were so many. He would state. moreover, that the political influ ence which Government possessed in Scotland—and whicb poss.:Wog, it exerted, was the cause why there was no popular representation. It was an undenia ble foe( ' that there never was any thing like a repre sentation of the sentiments of the people of Scotland, ualess when on some occasion of urgent necessity the people were called together to express their opi nions. He wished the House to know these circum stances, and also that the Petitioners would have gone much farther but for the influence which he had mentioned—but that the p ditical defects of the Constitution prevented the expression of their sen timents. Mr. W. DUNDAS said, he had not stated that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman objected to the Petition because lie was not now Counsel for the Pe titioners. In the concluding part of his speech the Hon. and Learned Gentleman complained of the way in which Scotland was repfesented, because for , smith it was not such as he would wish. The send► ments of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman on this subject were very well known—but he would tell him this, that till he c./Mil persuade Parliament to over turn the whole of that system under which that country so Jong 11-,mislieu—to overthrow all the rig is (it c,rpor4tions, he would in vain attempt to persuade the House into a belief of the existence of the del.ecti which he saw in it, or that it could be improved by anystich alterations as he would propose. Mr. J. P. GRANT was not at all surprised at the anxiety of the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. I)undas) that no change should be made in the system of re. presentation in Scotland. The petitions which that Honourable Gentleman this evening presented to the House from his Constituents, and the speech with which they had been accompanied, was a pretty strong proof that their sentiments were not very ae curately represented by those of their Member. It the system of giving instructions to Representatives were adopted in Scotland, he believed that there was not one individual in the populous city which the Honourable Gentleman represented, who would not have instructed him to oppose the Property Tax._ The Petition was then read, and ordered_ to lie on the Table. Other petitions against the Property Tax were pre sented to the House from the following quarters : From the inhabitants of Lymington, in Hampshire, complaining also of the conduct of Ministers in maintaining a standing army, to support a foreign Government against the wishes of the people—from the residenters in the district of Upper Annandale, complaining also of the Malt Tax, and that on Farming Houses—from the freeholders, agricultu rists, and traders, of the County of Southampton— from the inhabitants of the borough of Great Grimsby —from the landholders and others in the Hundred, of Din, in the County of Norfolk, complaining also ot the number of sinecure places and pensions —and from the inhabitants of the town ot Cambridge. They were severally brought'up, read, and ordered to lie on the table. Sir ALEXANDER HOPE presented a petition from certain inhabitants of Linlithgow against the - Property Tax, and praying likewise for some &here ' tion in the Distillery Laws. On thiquestion that this petition should be read, M-. PRESTON, amid many interruptions, by cries for die question, spoke against tlitt Property Tax, and on the distresses of the agriculturak interest. On this latter abject, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was proceeding to read what he called " a history of the distresses or the country," being a paragraph from a County Newspaper s but was stopped by calls of "Order" and de Question." The petition was then . read ; and n the question for it to lie on the table, Mr: PONSONBY said he would be glad to know him the Noble Lord opposite, whether this Petition same from those whOrn be bad last night been pleased to describe as clamixonlly running down this Tax, because it was a measure of Administration ? He would be glad to know if it was on his ( Mr. Pun sonby's) side of the House that the cry had been raised against this Tex, which now resouailed frem every part of the country-if the Noble Lord thought he owed the indisposition which was felt by the whole nation for this Tax to the conduct of the Opposition ?' But if the Noble Lord would only inquire, he would find that public opinion had never been so general, so universal against any measure. Such was the ge neral opihiou upon the subject. that if the Gentlemen, who sat opposite to the Noble Lord had wished it, they could not have excited such a feeling of ani mosity against the Tax : it was a feeling so general, that no effort was necessary to raise an opposition to it. As to the political artifices of which the Noble Lord last night talked, be could only for himself say that he knew none of them. For his own conduct, be bad always opposed this Tax—he had never vo ted for it in his life, under any circumstances what ever, because he thought the principles established by the law for collecting this Tax were quite repugnant , to public liberty. The Noble Lord had praised the Gentlemen on the Opposition side of the Weise for their wisdom in increasing this Tax; but be did not feel himself included in the Noble Lord's compli ment. But was there no dffereuce in the imp osejen of this Tax in the time of war ? Every petition which had been presented to the House stated th it it had been borne cheerfully during the war. *lt only remained for him to express a wish that his M.ijoay's Ministers would inform themselves of the real ()pi nion of the people. If they did si t they would find that the universal opposition vita which their pro. posal was met was not owing to those Gentlemen in that House who sa, opposite to them. Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that it was not strictly in order to notice what had pr i sed on a former debate, although it certainly was in the com petence of any Honourable Member to agitate what ever subject he pleased on a questiJn concerning petition. But he could not think that it was the best way to discusi a great and important measure in that incidental way : be certainly thought that it was bet ter to enter regularly upon the debate of so serious a question, rather than to proceed by interrogations. He did not impute to the Gentlemen on the other side id the House, that they had raised an unjust clamour against the Pre, arty Tax; and when it was conside red that they were the persons who (as he had al- ways thought ; very wisely,) raised it from six and a half per cent. to ten per cent. surely they were the last who, in political decency, could come forward to abuse the Tax as iniquitous and unconstitutional.— All that he wished from these Gei!;lemen was to lay aside clamour, and to come to 11:c discussion of the subject with nothing but fair argument. If they did so, he was prepared to contend for the expediency of continuing the Tax, not upon a peace principle, but a war principle. During the adntinistratiox of Lord Grenville, when the Tax was increased, and when himself and his friends sat on the other side of the House, they did not attempt to oppose the measure, nor to raise any clamour against it; and during the whole time that they sat in opposition they supported Government in all the proper measures which they had brought forward. But he did say, that the Gentlemen now on the other side of the House at ' tempted to clamour down this Tax, instead of argu ing the question : and this was shewn by their wish ing to place Ministers in such a situation as to oblige them either to interrupt the public business, or to leave what they said unanswered. The modified continuation of the Tax was proposed on exactly the same principle on which it bed been originally pro. posed—namely, that of carrying the country through the war and its difficulties; and on this principle he was prepared to argue its expediency. He would maintain, that the temporary difficulties and dis tresses of the country would be best relieved by sup porting the public credit, and that the public credit would be most effectually supported by the modified continuance of this Tax. Until the whole of the war establishment. was got rid of, it would be best to re tain this Tax in a mitigated form. The Right Ho. nourable Gentleman (Mr. Punsonby) was, no doubt, correct when he said he that had never voted fur this tax; but be forgot to inform the House of the reason. Ile fact was, that the Right Honourable Gentleman had no opportunity of giving his vote for or against it, as the 'Tax had been originally laid on before the Uaion with Ireland ; and wheel the political friends tef the Right Honourable Gentlemen increased it to ten per cent. it happened that the Right Honourable Gentleman was employed in Ireland in discharging the duties of the office which he then held. This was a very good cause why the Right Hon. Gentleman had never voted for this Tax. But was the Right Honourable Gentleman prepared to say, that if, at that time, he had not been absent, he would have op posed that administration—that he would, on the question of this Tax, have voted against his political connections ? If the Right Honourable Gentleman would now state that he would have acted so, the House must, of course, believe him ; but he was cer tain he could not say that he would. He must colt. demo that course of proceeding by which the Gentle men opposite had carried on ex /Idris debates against this Tax, attempting by their. clamorous attacks to oppose a measure which had already so mainly con tributed to support the country during a Iceng and difficult war—which had been the sheet anchor of our public credit in the hour of danger, and had enabled us triumphantly to weather the storm. • Mr. HORNER said, the Noble Lord had r• hayr ig said that the recent discussion upon the Property Tax was an ex parte debate. Such it certainly was, because it consisted of an unanimous expression of feelling against the tax, though Ministers had been unfortunately so much indisposed as nct to be able to sit m their places to hear it. The Noble Lord had imputed clamour to this side of the House ; but the strongest epithets which be had heard used against the Property Tax, had come from the Gentlemen who were in the habit of voting with the Noble Lord. He hoped they would take for themselves all the re proaches he had uttered. The Noble Lord talked of the inconsistency of those who 'spoke against that tax, alter having supported it under Lord Grenville's Adedietietratioa, but he wits t the same time forced to admit that it was in time of elm not ot tit objecthat the t y etiit h . .l.l ß g u iv t ei i i t tli vnoi.t.evsttoo ted to its revival nit any (Kota aCCollitt h t) , t ,7 in peace, a war impos.. slicitli not be tx. 3 ",, ed g T u h a a g t. e w ( a d s t a l I , r i g e m u t i t enl eallbitts:nidpe. e m t the y a an th d e. G m e ftifully citlicerfA th;;;:,1;• ;, 1 aga gr o da ln ts ti rt sa me ground. The tetult of all i f e r i f j : e 1.01 41 wars and negocinions, of those tLtlie s 3 had tranquillized the world, and bater.d Ca. r ec ,: of Europe in ties of indissolubl: uttion, wa% the basis of the renewal of this tax w 3 a ciple ! He hyped the 1-linve would r•tsnler;:-; to be misled : that as it would see uo : °eta (IN foreign wars, it would see no eccas;on f or wviov r sures, and would vote no tat on war on principles c'neACC. The N:•ble Lord was tented with alluding to the conduct a Lcrd vale's Administration on thi s subj:Ani b„ tit: 7 3 . great mer it vs himself ant to tise Gentlertel4la. sided with him, for not hccir; trade 2 straa ,, l sition to the increase of the Pr operty T ax, th ‘ en : posed by the Ministers of the time. It w a s te , *1 . . 1 the Noble Lord and his co:;.:*.Nes lead na b : an open and manly opposition in that 'lice, h at had con d ucted it el .!wl: .re. (Thar, h em ., I wo Z* the opft w i i i,, n .) ilc ( :kir. Horner) htd 0 4 4 Palliament shortly after the drat'a remt mh•red weal AI the occasions oi ) w hi ch eel., had distinguishet hirnsi.if by his appe6t.7. He had made a sort of fightcit ti‘e the Slave. Ttade, and 11 td been t li e o f t f, rt stood in the gap. Wizen the Bill In, te; , 11 ;•': 1 of t'.e /slarth Ame:iea and We...t India Tia f h b.:en prur:osed, he l•ad mustered a sq--ng fonn te . ; , rat:WA:IC, agaicst which neither th e Luid nor any of his colleagues, lei* , r nalear, 7 had si;ice, b.r ;cars, had any cling ter say f t t t:: us that I.e h.id conducted his opposaio s Rothe, but he ir.td carried on a slow, deep, iju t:z iaiiigue at Windsor, against the Admini stra 4 (lirar, &dr.) And uu what subject I Os f i k(4. Etuancliatien. (Hear, hear.) On s q u i ; whether the least portion of relief should b e grak4 to the Noble Lord's own native fellow Sibigw.. (II car, ;mar.) CASTLEREAGH had not prided Li e d' on tin: filth oppo:tioir which he a nd his calluva had made to the inZiCiiSe of the l'ropettrially Lori Grenville's Administration ; for be tale thought that one of the agiunt dm* position was its activity! Mr. TIEiiNEY claimed the same meTitoN . Noble Lnrd, for he had re: clanrured age ftv Property Tax when the return of Bonapau h occasioned and k.stified its revival. Bat the Lord ought nit to in.;ulg,2 in such language a s : 4 had done. It he calicd the language of the mita Opposition clamour, hz should say that the Osys. tion of the Noble Lord hod been facticns.—(4 hear.) —But he was ready to make rnaly alminx t the No';le L , : . (1 was in a &toilful state cl coT• irritation. If it hzd Liten possible by any me.sna get acc'ess to his bed•chaml.er last night, he doubt tare Nchle Lord would h Ave been seen gni in his sleep, and inco!:e-.:itly Property Tax, Pet:lions, opt; P.:: liamentary —(Laughter.)—To sute, it vi.t.s rottual fat ta Noble Lord should not ilk .t Petitions againg a at which he wished to Inc: upon the silica. Iza when the whole country petitioned again it, se -e the Gentlemen of this sitle cf the Rah* tolsetitir4 with using fac..ious language, blouse they kerdi and earnestly oppos-ii a Tax which the bran to jetted He, however, could nut help lettl4t that he had never scen the Noble Lord start lr ' triumphantly than be had done List night. TlicEt halt, that was to say, the fits: hi ur and an hik i his speech, h td been spent in mere sill dcence. lx had at last, lixwever, b: - ou2;it an occuiatiun.i;c.; him (Mr. Tiern.,y) for voting he time of war. Ile had done all Le could agaiut at the time it w.,s prnpot,l J. But, coilital t:. expeezati ;its, he had found thac tt.e c.,ur..ry ~•• I ceivt.J it in LW) Of three years without tms;iloL..l 'And, whm it bad been raised -to 10 per one syllable had been mid through. the wll6lecti.:l against it. He did trot see why he should be 0$ by the Noble Lord, merely because it sailed purpose of the debate. One of his objections tc;::: t.:x at present was, that it would occ..sion tit bic, of a solemn contract between the Crom: anit c-ithitry. But then the Noble Lord *attemiy& elude that difficulty, by saying that we owe AI. It WAS a pity th..tt he had not iccollectel that • he had moved an Address to the Print- congratulating him for the gbr ions and s. cure which had been ccuciuded. Ti.e Noble hot and cold at the same nionmit. When he wai to congratulate the Throne, 112 said we stee peace; but, when he wanted to impcse an treyloo tax on the country, he dtclared Ciat we wars:ice. —(LuSliter.)—The Noble Lord a ssured t. 41 1004 at the seen time, that the country w..s iu el 4:"': l .r ,How then was it at war . ? Oh but, said Lord, there remains the winding up of the se. Very well : but the Noble Lord had takni merit last night to himself and to his coital:oi cause they had so managed their financial arr. meats, that peace would not drag in her tram 01 the expenses of war. All such c , i iitradictilr , s, ever, he was willing to attribute to the Nobl: L a ' state of health.—(Laughter.)—The Noble hard said. that he would persevere. be the represcrt ri of the country whatever they might. He weu;d . them factious, but he would give way to but a vote of that House. Would he give sear vote of that House, the freq sense of every Mem s ' l . But it he gained - that vote, would it be tae unt 6 the Home he would nave obtained, and not reier fresh display of the influence of the Crown ? — ( thi hear.)—What the Nobly. Lord called clam*, e the real sense of the people of England. his colleagnes wished to perpetuate the prioorb. the Property Tax. Their object was not the eald up of the war. At the end of• two years, leb 4 they might now say, they did not mean to g" the Tax, unless the other sources of revenue have experienced an increase equivalent toils Their real intention was to make it a put of the tem of taxation of England.—(Hear. /mar, hes . The Noble Lord had said that his call had net answered; but now it had, though perhaps -6°i his lull satisfaction.; In tact, he bad never scell listy wigin :ont•t' kortio ! gre 1. :701 tr.).... the u ice ; a .; R Itn, , "pi .0 I. a► yieh p 'ht . a I 1 ec 'von I ' ryC In c Pniu ip •1' mat IC Pr ra 6 be eY roar, Ind I ct ii rhict ioui any mi Y lope tat 1 r, iml Tc a 64 inst val Jpr