Star. — London, England, 1811-01-05 00:00:00

IWw' PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. •te sal of the c Under tVr tenOciehtioe. tile frothily . emit proceedings were similar to those which _.bled on a former occasion of the like melanchtly nature. There was no example whatever, he abrerverj, ' in the history of the country, save in two iustats*, which may be regarded as species of usurpallisisn, where the individual appointed to the head of the Goii eernment as a Regent, was hot, in some way ar other, limited or restrained. It seas a general prin. eiple, pervading the whole history of the country, that to all cases where the States of the Realm acted uposl the exigencies of the moment, the person upon who. the Government of the country, as Regera, was coo., ferred, was circumscribed or restrained. This was it, principle and practice, proceeding upon grounds isd established upop principles founded in the naturessa4 original principles of the Constitution. Upon this' principle their ancestors proceeded I it was founiledi in truth, and upon the principles of universal just and with a just regard to the inestimable Constitution of the country. This principle of constitutional dis tinction between the situation of the King and that of Regent was every where apparent. The King held all his rights and powers for the benefit of the people—the King, top, it should be considered, had a permanent interest in these rights and powers— a Regent, on the other hand, was a person called upon to exercise these rights temporarily fur an other—a Regent had therefore only a temporary interest in the powers vested in him. This consti- Ituted a bread distinction—the difference betsireee `permanent rights and powers, and temporary powers. It was in this view also to be considered, that the permanent interest attaching to the individual who wears the Crown affords a considerable degree of security against these rights add powers, while the temporary interest which the Regent alone possessed may be considered as some degree of temptation to the abuse of these powers' there was the differ ence of security afforded by the consideration of per manent over that of temporary powers. The tempo rary powers of Regents always afforded, more or less, a subject of conaitutional jealous!. The principle upon which their ancestors acted was, that while they provided for the present, they were not forgetful of the future, and they always bore in mind, the con, sjderation of the resumption of the legitimate audio, rity of 'the Sovereign. ['non these general prim:4 pies, every instance of Regency had hitherto beep founded in this country, and the Jame principle obtained whether the Throne wps temporarily titt, occupied or fall, or where such measures nviginatr ed in full Parliament of King, Lords. and Cum. mons. While contending for this principle, he adr mitted, that a considerable difference hod At drffer, ent time; prevailed as to the mode in which ouch principles were carried into execution ; hut what. ever the mode was, whether by the intervention of a Council, as a controuling power, or by the tem. porary suspension of the royal power, still the prig. hiple of restriction obtained, Whatever degree of difficulty might appear, from a view of the words e administering the Government of the Country," as appealing upon the Jporitals, he believed it was never . yet intended that by ;loch investiture, all the prerogat'ves of the Crown alipuld be given to the Reg( nt• Thi s pbsrAvation ha more especially app plied to the li; ResolutiOo. with respect to the ova.. ties' of Peers, he co;410 slot think such a power was meant to be conferred isy these words. This principle guided the prec'edent 41788, whatever variation there might be, arose horn the difference of circumstances in the two cases. Heeertainly thought that with regard to the power in the question of War and Peace, and in some matters of a similar nature, no restriction Ar li mitation would be expedient, as upon these grounds the superintending controul of Parliament, as pre scribed by the Constitution, was a sufficient restroint. Any farther restraints than those proposed would be, he thought, to embarrass Government, and tend to do away the practical good arising f rom the constitutional formation of the executive the same principle applied to all the great officers of the State, but the whole should' be arranged under the contemplation that the power was revocable by the King on the riiismption or reassunsption of his royal authority. Its such a case as that before them, and where the limitations were intended but for a definite period, there did not exist the necessity for creating such a body in the State as a Council to restrict the powers of the Regent. Here, as in all former cases, they were called upon to regard the peculiar circumstances of the case. They should bear in mind, that the exercise of the powers so constituted should be temporary only, and also not to forget the probability that existed of the resumption of that power by the lawful Sovereign. He observed, agent, that the whole system now under considera- ' tem proceeded, as in the case of 1788, upon two great leading facts ; First, the personal incapacity of the Sovereign to exercise his royal functions.; and, secondly, the probability which existed, and even the confident expectations entertained of the recovery of the Sovereign, so as to enable him to resume the ex ercise of those functions. Upon these grounds the whole should be considered ; and, upon every 1111* principle, it should be held, that, although some dif. ferent opinions as to modes may obtain, still the gene, ral principle upon which all such measures were found. ed, was the same. The extent of the application may be different, but in the principle itself there was uo difference. In the present ease, whatever Variation obtained, it arose only out of the different circum stances of the country. On these he deemed it unne cessary to enter into any detail, and on this ground whatever variation from the principle of the . prece dent of 1788 tuck place, of course, proceeded ; whatever difference there may be in the term of li mitation, there was none in the temporary princi ple, and regard was had hr both to the probable re-1 sumption of power by his Majesty. In looking to I what was the decision of Parliament on the impor tant occasion so often alluded to, he could net avoid referring to the characters of these great men 'Who took part in these discussions. At the same time he must observe, that some of these great characters,. in the course of these proceedings, were Most tie justly, and most unnecessarily aspersed. He spoke in reference to one more especially, who took the lead in the former proceedings, whose reputatiti‘ whose fame, whose credit in the country, was fou .. ed iu no small degree upon the plurious part Asir t in these very proceedings. Instead of the way which such characters had been referred to, they should logk upon their efforts with deference, and build upon the foundations they had laid, rather OM upon new ideas, hastily or inceasiderately istsoducesi. NOUSE OT LORDS, JANIIAItY 4. The Earh of CY/Mt:4OON and MOR AT, the latter as Baron lite* art of Castle Sietrart. took the Oaths and their Seats. The LORD CHANCELLOR (in the absence of bit Noble Friend the Earl of Liverpool) presented the Documenla ordered yeeterd,ll, on the motion or the Noble Secretary u( State, touch ing certain issues of Publit Money. The House dap adjourned for some time, during pleasure; on Its muffling, and previous to the Order of the Day being entered wpm, a crinversideou took place on tha topic to which the above- Meld toned rapers referred, via. • • _ Issues Os woxer. Earl SPENCR.- expressed his wish to know what itoirse or line of proceeding the Noble Secretary of State meant to propose, relative to the Documents just presented The Earl of LIVERfOOL observed, that at pre e sent it was proposed only that the Papers should lie on the table, and that they should be printed. He adverted vi the very important subject which stood as tie Order the Day, and which was at present the regular a. - •d proper topic for the attention of their Lordships. Earl SPENCER did not wish any explanation or detail from the Noble Secretary, which might lead to a discussion, or take off the attention of their Lord ships from the order of the day. He only wished for some general information as to the manner in which it was proposed to proceed, from which might be col should be given. .RPOOL had no objection to .neral statement as the Noble Earl submit the subject to the consider .,-morrow. At the same time . from any thing that would - tend proposed discussion. The cones would appear in the Papers, re ,keii relative to the issue and of the public money. These Imstances of pecnliar difficulty, Government were placed. To to form a judgment of the idence was laid before them. proceedings upon the subject, ,:onsider that these• more pecq. another qua•ter. From the dr.! exigency of the occasion, how , his dUty to submit a resolstion, tothorise the issue of the money-- iqestion from the conduct of his At on the occasion, whether right was ready to enter into discus `: circumstances required that taken without delay. After a few words from Earl SPENCER, . 4 The .Earl of MOIRA observed, that, as far is he Understood the case, it was one of peculiar exigency, involving, however, the question of Ministerial con duet. He had us) objection to the proceeding COR tecrtplAted by the Noble Secretary, with a tacit corn y-am that if the question Should he considered' as only referring to the necessities of the public ser vice, al to the degree of criminality or culpability, if sniy, Which existed in the conduct of Ministers on the dtcasion. it was a distinct 'consideration, and its dis etission might he kept separate from it. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, he had admitted that the subject involved two distinct questions, that which was fitting or necessary for the public serv:ce, and the other, how far his Majesty's Government were justifiable in their relevant conduct? What he should propose to-morrow would respect the former necessary consideration, and not involve the justifica tion iilluded to. . . Lord GRENVILLE briefly observed, that some difference may arise respecting the mode in which this should be dune. Their Lordships then proceeded to the Order of the Day, which being read, the House resolved into a Committee on the IsTATI OF THN NATION. . Lord WALSINGuAsi in the Chair. The Resolutions communicated at the late confe. rence, (and which appeased at length in our Paper of yesterday), were then read. The Earl of LIVERPOOL then rose, and said, ' that before he entered regularly upon the iris , portant subject before the Committee, be begged leave to say a few word; upon a point which appeared to him necessary, as a preliminary consideration. Ho{ wished it to be understood, in the first instance, and' which he thought should be laid down as a general prioeiple, so far as governing the debate, that what- over might be said, should not, by any construction, boitsterpreted as any disrespect or want of personal delicacy to the Illustrious Personage, whom they all , agreed, was t_.be proper person to be invested with the high functions which seemed so prominent a part of their Lordships' consideration that night. It was on public grounds, sad on these alone, that this great question, involving io many important considerations, ebould be discussed. It was on great and general principke only, t h at a subject involving the high 1 u ogative of the Crown should be discussed. This rinciple pervaded all Parliamentary discussion ; iwas _not the conduct or personal considerations ' 0 1 1 ,he4odieidgal who wore the Crown that was re gularly the topic under discussion: it was the senduct of those who were the advisers of the Crowe. and responsible for the acts of Govern- !Pent, that was the due topic under consideration.— It was a ma=in ef our Constitution that the King Could do no wrong; the conduct of Ministers was itsn point regularly at issue ; and on this ground he I would ask it of their Lordships, that the same prin. siple should be universally held to apply, in the dis. eussien of that night also, to the person, whoever he may be, invested with the Royal Authority ;it r - as a principle, indeed, which ought generally to apply to ' p4aliameptarydiscussion of the measures of Go moment. Nothing of personal consideration to that ilaalttii pent:wag. but as referring to the conduct of the. upon whosf a dvice he acts. This was a prin. siple which be wished to have distinctly understood in the outset ; aed the system which had hitherto pre sr4ded in 41 discussions of the legislature, he asked, should be considered as prevailing on the present oc elisiont and that nothing which fell from Noble Lords le freely discussieg this important subject, should by construed into a want of delicacy, or failure -in personal respect to the Illustrious Personage -oo 'closely connected with chit subject.--(liter, Ater, hew, from all sides of th e Committee.)—Having presented this Oisuidetation, be begged leave to call the attention of their Lordships to the immedi- e—What degree Of teriitton ekisted Pt+teetied, he !Went to ektie With sittgont- all the otter duties mid words(' repeat, upon the varied circumstances of the functions of the Sovereign—when you would have times ; and in this Sieve of the ease, the duration of him call in every individual for his best exertions in the restrictions e s pecially - e-AS calculated. With re- his conntry's cause—you would strip him of the means firms to this point, it Would not be improper to res of rewarding those eteitions, while you would he. Mind their Lordships, that the great stand made in pose upon him all that was harsh, ungracious, and that House was upon the questioh for the insertion severe in.the discharge of the royal functions. The of the words " for a time to be limited :" and it was Regent should have to execute every thing that was upon these words the question was then taken, and odious and ungrateful in the eiercise of the roy a l a n. which chewed the point upon which the strongest diffe- thOeity, while you would d: spoil his authority and since of opinion then existed. What he had said more prerogative of every thing that WAS winning, gracious, . particularly applied to the subject of the three first Re- and benign. It could not he a new observatine ' solutions. Upon the fourth he thought it unnecessary to their Lordships that the British . , Constitution e then to trouble their Lordships with ;my observations; consisted of three branche 3. and that is the recipro. but upon the fifth he had some remarks to make, He cal action and re-action of these three estates re . was aware, in considering this, of the difficulty arising . suited the whole beauty of the edifice. The two from the cherige of cif cumstances in the case ;on this Houses were now called upon to fill up the deficience paint, however, it appeared to be generally agreed, which has so unfortunately occurred in the ti l l' A that the household should be separated from the ge. estate ; and if they should deprire it of its due weight neral administration of the government of the coup- and interest in theereneral system, what mast become try, and to place it in the hands of her Majesty. It of its equilibrium and mutual controul ? The power . would follow that every part of the household at. of creating Peers is one of the chief eontrouls nt the, tached to the sacred person of his Majesty, and under Crosen ; and if you take it away, where is the busted these circumstances, therefore, it followed, that the balance of our coma:in:line' system? Their Lred: ' household should be placed in the same hands. He ships were now indeed :tending on tins wreck of tits was aware of the objections formeily.mede to this at. Constitution, without a rudder to guide it amidst lei rangement, and to these the same elutetions applied. rocks and shoals with which it was encompaised e ee . In this part of the subject he admitted there was only The Noble Marquis next argued against the pro a choice of difficulties. It was, however, usual, to restrictions with regard to his Majesty's house- t o consider the household establishment as a mere mat- What particelar service could they now be engaged in ter of State, and as having little or nothing to do with with regard to his Majesty? They were tor the present 4 the domestic comforts of the Sovereign—but that was incapable of rendering any service to the King. But by no means the case. Though, as was known, the it liee been said that on his Majesty's recovery, hie far greater number of individuals attached to the complete recovery he hoped, it would be painful to ' Royal person, were appointed by the superior officers, his Majesty to find that those who had usually beci yet the whole, as a system, tended more or less to the about his royal *son should have been removed...-. domestic comforts and coeveniencies of his Majesty, Surely this seas paying no very Clawing cosuplimeat , and was not merely to be considered as a m a tter o f to the roy a l mi n d. Wh i t wou ld it imamate out this, ' State. He was at a loss to see how the system could that on his Majesty's recovery, instead if anxiously be separated from the Royal person, even considering inquiring whet detriment might have been suffered that degree of dignity and splendour which should at- by the Constitution, what intermediate evils might • tech to• Majesty, in the moments of great personal af- have befallen the country, his Majesty's solicitude tiiction, In considering this important part of the would be whnile engrossed by enquiries respecting ' Resolutions, they should bear in mind what was pro- i the O f f i cers of his Household ? But thi s was not a ll. ' vided in case the Roy a l indisp os i t i on s h ou ld conuntle, The restrictions, it seems, were to last but a year, and their best hopes in that resp ec t n o t rea li s ed, b u t, and then Perliement might see whether they should 1 contemplating the much wished-for recovery, no alte- not he farther prolonged. What a state was this, ration in this respect should be made. On this ground then, to which you would-degrade the Royal Autho r his Lordship argued, and with much feeling confers. rity ! You would obit-rye in what manner, during sled, that no alteration should be made in the resoiu. the course of the year, the Regent had acted in hie tion as originally framed ; he had with reference to administration of public affairs, and then you would personal feeling, not only to urge but to implore their calf him again to your bar, and examine why the re- Lordships to that effect—to prevent the possibility of strietions in his authority should not be further C'lll. their Sovereign, should he happily be restored to his tinued, or why. his prerogatives might not be further , subjects within the interval of seeing his household ' curtailed : for where can you be said to stop, after new-rpedelled, his 'faithful servants detached from what has already been proposed ? There was really bites bit domestic arrangements broken in upon, and something absurd in the proposition before their find himself placed among a species of strangers in Lordships. There was no hesitation in giving to the his own family.—(Hear, hear.)ln every point of I Regent the management of the navy, of the army, an d view which he could take of it, he thought their Lord. , of all the commercial relations ofille count r y ; o ver 'hips could not consistently agree to the Reselution ; these, it seems, he may exercise tie most unlimited au. sent up to them from the Commons, and he trusted ' dimity, but over the Houshold he must have no con. they would with him see the propriety of restoring it troul. The Regent may make peace or war, bet he to the shape in which it orignaily stood. He ills. must not make Peers or grant sinecures. Upon this claimed vain on whatever he said, more especially on paint only do Ministers seem to feel any alarm. As this part of the subject, any thing which may he con. ; to the various precedents that have been adduced in sieered as actuated by motives of jealousy against the suppers of this doctrine, and of these measures, they Illustrious Persons implicated in this part of the sub- are drawn chiefly ftom cases of minors, and have no I ject. Her Majesty, he was confident, felt no other fair application to a case of full maturity and hew wish than that in common with all whom he addres- eepetiince and observation. There was therefore only sod, for the recovery of her Illustrious Consort, attest- the precedent of 1788, on which this sole question was tied with all those circumstances which must be pie. to rest. Of that precedent he should only say that it fying in the supremest degree to her own personal was imperfect and incomplete. It stood recommended feelings, and to the wishes and interests of the country only on the grounds of expediency ; and were the at large. Towards his conclusion, the Noble Earl grounds let - expediency which recommended it in 1788, dwelt with great eloquence and pathos on these topics, now to be recommended in 1811? Must we forget all and conjured their Lordships not, in moments of se. the great events that passed since that period, and the vere personal affliction, to abandon the rights of their important consequences which they have produced t Sovereign, a Sovereign who, during the long coerce Has the Constitution suffered nothing from the of his long and prosperous reign, never separated his overwhelming influence that has ::risen from the interests and happiness from those of his subjects and French Revolution, is not more care, more vi. his country, or never omitted to make any sacrifice glance, more energy, more activity necessary, now which he thought would tend to the happiness, the to upheld it, and maintain the extensive interests honour, and the prosperity of his kingdoms. of this Great Empire than at any former time On the question being put on the hrstßesolution, —Yet such is the moment when it is proposed to The Earl of CARLISLE rose, and in a short &trickle and . curtail that power by which that in. speech expressed his disapprobation of the line of con- I creased vieilence, energy, and care, are to be exer. duct pursued by Ministers en the present occasion.— I cised. When the attack of foreign enemies is to be Referring to sense historical allusions which were repelled, when internal discontent is to be eontrouled, made on a former night, he contended that the intl. you would withdraw from him on whom you impose rences to be deduced therefrom were different from all these arduous tasks. the means of accomplishing the conclusions advanced by Noble Lords on the Mi- the objects you would require at his hands. You nisterial side of the House ; and, in the course of his . would bare supported the edifice of the State, yet you observations, paid his tribute of applause to some would cut away the ground on which it most stand. prominent parts in she ministerial character of Mr. Pitt. If their Lordships were not prepared tens to expose The Marquis of LANSDOWNE declared, that he the means oldie safety of the country, yet they would ' felt it to be his duty to negative, is Bruits, the prin. concur in the amendment Which he now moved. The ciple on which was hinged the propriety of imposing Noble Marquis then concluded with moving to leave restrictions and limitations on the Regent. It was a out that part of the Resolution beginning with the doctrine unknown to the law, unauthorized by the words " subject to such restrictions, limitations." Constitution, and the practice which it was built upon etc. etc. was daily becoming more dangerous to the interests Lord SIDMOUTH rose and said, he would not of the State, and the security of the Constitution. If on this occasion refuse to take his feelings as his guide he had not misread the book of that Constitution, it on part of his way ; they could not be the worst guides taught him to believe that the Crown and its Prero. on such a question. It was not necessary to dwell .getites were a trust granted for the good of the peo. long on the preof of what was i maxim in the law of i pie, and not for the personal benefit of the King.— every country ; " That all power not withheld from That the powers vested in the Crown were intended the people by law, or immemorial usage, was the to enable the Sovereign to discharge the functions of right of the people." On the occasion of the King's the kingly office for the advantage of the nation over incapacity, the right of providing for the competence which he ruled, and that those powers should be in of the executive reverted to the two Houses of Par. proportion to the difficulties which he might have to Bement. The House of Peers had suspended their encounter in the due discharge of these functions.— , proceedings from day to day and week co week, from Surely then, if it was requisite at any time to leave 1 their unwillingness to put upon their journals the ries. those powers unrestricted and unlimited, the difficul. 1 lancholy tact of the King's incapacity. The report ties of the present moment justly and imperatively 1 of the physicians was the evidence of the King's ill called for the fullest exercise of the regal powers. If ; ness, and also the evidence of the probability of hie the exercise of those had formerly been found to be 'recovery. The present state of his illness was more , useful, what was there in the nature of our present 1 favourable than in 1788. Then the physicians could 1 situation that should make us consider it not only as i assign no cause for the King's illness, except that I 1 useless, but mischievous ? It were really carious to ' one assigned by Dr. Willis alone, namely , the tre- I examine die nature of the proposed restrictions. It mendous one, of the habits of twenty-seven year/e -1 would lead us to believe that what is useful in a King, ' from severe exercise, anxiety, and abstemiousness. Irma be useless or mischievous in a Regent—and that, ' Here the cause was universally admitted to be oats therefore, when a Regency is to be established, you which the nation were so much inclined to feel and should suspend elle exercise of the prerogatives of the .to honour. The King was still in possesses:l otitis Crowe io the hands of the Regent. And, indeed, if authority ; and whoever spoke in derogation of that lour leoedships aswnt.to the proposition of the Noble authority, was guilty of treason, and must stand the 6, eitetery of State, what may not be the inconvenien. risk with his lite. The House now had no authority Oriel and difficulties in which you may involve the but that from necessity, and they must not exceed Regent ? You would withhold from him, for in. , the bounds of that necessity. Those who contended - stance, the power 4of rewarding merit, a power which , for giving the creation of Peers to the Regent, most has been studiously upheld in all civilized nations; • thew, that without such 'a power, the Government cf but abort all in monarchies The power to reward the Regent could not be carried on. Was ihe poverty merit wet always the most grateful prerogative of a . of the Crown's influence such, that nothing but the Monarch. But now, when you would call upon the privilege could stetaia it alive ? Let the klou.e c:na. lected whether a notice s The Earl of LIVER giving sqch a general st Denied to wish, to subm sion of the House to-I he ivished.tn abstain froi to anticipate the propos pondenoe which would spotted ceruin steps tal application of a pOrtiM steps arose sett of circus n ‘rbich his Majesty's C sable their Lordships hject, the correspond ith respect to the pr they would have to coil tarty belonged to anoi cumstances, and the a titer, he would feel it his which would go to auth this was a distinct quest giiesty'§ Governnieqt r qp! -i:mg--on this he w eon stt .ny time, but some 'steps should be tal to re a ti they they :xoill talks nag autt to al lacct 'nen is ma ►cry :url t oil e I W e e t l t P INIi VI RI C( 1 1101