Star. — London, England, 1816-02-21 00:00:00

I. ... ' -a- !F . -77 field, that they had it in contemplation to increase the public btarthen.-.- (Hear , hear, hear!)--and this was sufficient ground why Members should pot be' stopped in their inquiries. "I am sure, at least, Sir, (said the Honourable Gentleman, eddressiog the' Speaker) that we shall not be stopped by von. If the Noble Lord refused to answer, the public would know the reason. We had been told from the throne that there was every "disposition to retrenchment; lint every do's :experience proved, that instead of retrenching, Ministers were actually increasing sala ries. If he heard from the Treasury that the Offi cers of the Tax Board had received an increase of salary, and that an application had been made from, the Commissioners of other Boards for the sameiimr pose, he had a tight to inquire whether Ministers bad such an augmentation in contemplation or not ? Lord CASTLEREAGH appeared inclined to te ply ; but there being a loud crrof " No, not Spoke, spoke!"— Mr. VESEY FITZGERALD rose and defended the Noble Lord against the chine of having used language that could be construed as insulting to the people. He alleged that the Honourable Gentleman bad made assertions that Government.had been em ployed in unnecessarily raising salaried, 'before there were any proofs that could authorise such opinions. He would take upon himself to say, that his observa tions were unauthorized by any thing that had been said in Parliament. He apologized for troubling the House; but said he could not remain silent when his Noble rased was precluded from making a reply for Mr. TIERNEY said it had been his misfortune to have been many years in Parliament-he said, his misfortune, because be had grown old in it ; and he would declare, that the questions put to Ministers were such as be had never heard any former Mini sters, even at the time Mr. Pitt was in the plenitude• of his power, refuse to give answers to. The Hens( only wanted to know the fact, whether entail silo. ries bad been advanced or not ? When answerecoeld not be obtained to such simple questions as these, it might well be supposed that the delays were made from improper motives. Even the Chancellor of the - Exchequer, who, if he had not fallen into strange company of late, might be expected to answer with his usual suavity, was now as reserved as the rest.—. (Laughter.) He would now shape a motion to the purpose, and would beg the Clerk to write it down, for " an Account, :hewing, according to the best judgment-of the Officers in the Public Departments, how much sooner than the 25th of March a Return could be made, stating, according to the directions of the Act of Parliament, what increase or diminution of salaries had taken place, and that the Return be made to the House by each of the Public Offices." The SPEAKER observed,, that it was by no means the custom to dictate motions to the Clerk of the House, except in any case of disability or infirmity out the part of the Mover. The practice was for Gentlemen to bring their motions ready written. Sir JOHN NEWPORT urged, in proof of die lax effect resulting from motions f o r Accounts, that an Address was agreed to on the 20th of April inet, and renewed on the 24th of Map. for Accounts vela. live to the Court of Session in Scotland, bat which were not produced by the end of the &SADA, though a single day would have beta sufficient to repose them. This sheered that it was easy to orders but not so ensy to obtain. Mr. iI'IERNEY apologised that his motion bad arisen frau the conversation that had taken place. - We understood it to be put and agreed to. He moved tor an account of the number of troops bo nne and mustered abroad, from 1786 to 1799, with a view to ascertain what was the actual strength of our foreign garrisons at any of these periods, as deemed necessary for their security in time of peace or war. After some conversation with Lord PALMaturroN, he fixed the periods from 1166 to 1791. The mo tion was agreed to. Sir ROBERT HERON•had a question to alt. very different from any which Ministers had heard that night. He bad heard a report, and he believed it to be true, that our Ambassador at Lisbon was about to return ; that a frigate had been appointed to bring him back; and that the same frigate was to carry out another person as his succestor in the embassy Lord CASTLEREAGH had no difficulty in as. tisfying the Honourable Baronet. The Embassy to the Court of Lisbon bad terminated as soon as it Was ascertained that it was not the intention of the Prince Regent to qnit the Brazils. No subsequent appoint.' ment whatever had taken place, either as Ambassa dor or Minister of Legation. Sir CHARLES MONCK moved, that monthly rettirns be presented of all British troops maintained in garrisons abroad.—Ordered. THE LATE CARDINAL YORK. Mr. PONSONDY said he had heard that a public monument was ordered to be erected in Italy, to the meat-ry of the late Charles Stuart, Cardinal York. He wished to know if this were fact, by whom it was ordered, and by whom to be paid for ? Lord CASTLEREAGH said the fact certainly was so. Perhaps the Right Hon. Gentleman did not know the situation of the Gentleman in question at the time of his decease. He was the last remnant of that unfortunate family, and had been plundered of his little property by the French, at the tune of their invasion of Italy. For some years pan his Majesty has been graciously pleased to allow him a *Than pension, which rendered his latter days com fortable, and for which he was overwhelmed with gratitude. He had given directions in his will, that the Collar of the Bath and Order of the Garter which' he possessed should be returned, and that certain pa pvrii ?elating to the family on the throne of these realms, should be sent to that family, as a mark of his deep gratitude. They -were accordingly trans. =Cued to the Prince Regent by the Cardinal his Executor, who declared he should be most grate ful, it his Royal Highness, in his liberality, would be pleased to assist him in erecting a monument to his frirml. It w.is under these circumstances that tile Prince Regent, in his accustomed spirit of libe rality, had given directions for a moderate sum of money to be paid to the Cardinal for the purpose in question. Mr. YONSONBY Mid, what he now heard made it a very different thing from erecting a public monu ment to a Prince of the House of Stuart, by desire of the Ltlglish Government, and at the expease of die English nation. VATs had turned wit to he the ease he should have thought it tilstluty to make a motion the subject. Lord CASTLEREAQH, in answer to another very brief question from Mr. Tierney, said, there very limited sum, out of the contributions paid by Franck, had been appropriated for the conveyance back to Italy of the pictures and statues seized by the French, and that a small portion of this money was to be paid, in the first instance, towards the monu ment. itasvuzn buses. On the motion for resuming the debate on the question of the Address, Mr. LAW began by descanting on the brilliant successes of oar anus by sea and find. But however splendidly these might appear, he trusted the House would never lose sight of the policy by which this country bad always been actuated in her relation to France. We were a grand maritime nation, and it had always been deemed a duty in our Statesmen of former times, to preserve and insist on our maritime rights. If therefore the Home should think they saw in any of the stipubitions, any thins that affected the Maritime interests of this 'gauntry, he trusted they would notfail to express their opinions Sources)? did this feeling of our right prevail us every clarion* war we had entered into against France, that it had always been our object to raise a continental war against het, in order that we might bear our undis puted sway on the Continent, and capture the colo nial possessions of the enemy. With this view, it had always been eur policy to be in close alliance with the Ruler of the Netherlands. The union of the Netherlands with Holland was an innovation which he could not 'prove. The Heine, however, had been Called upon to admire this arrangement, as part of a legacy left to Europe by a great Statesman now no more. Notwithstanding this, so far was he from admiring the union in question, that he could , ly view it as pregnant with calamity. The !uni tary force of the Netherlands could, in war, exceed 100,000 men. It was not then to be supposed more than 50,000 would be kept on their peace establish ment. These, occupied with the care of the strong places, eighteen in number, which they would have to maintain, would throw upon England alone the burthen of defending the country. Austria and Prussia could not be expected to take this duty off our hands. At present,'n hik the minds of men were agitated against France,-.Prussia might be likely to exert herself on any important occasion, but when the feelings now excited shall have subsided, it was not to be supposed that Prussia (speaking with refer ence to the situation in which she stood with respect to France) would be always disposed to act such a part. The Netherlands then could find no ally but England, and the consequences must be, this country would have to bear the expense of two peace esta blishments, one at home, end one for the defence of the Netherlands. With these views, he could not but look on the annexation of Belgium to Holland with the most anxious alarm. Better terms might have been obtained, it appeared to him, from the com manding situation held by this country in the last year, after the betas of Waterloo. He (though aware bow dangerous it was for those who disapproved of what had been done, to suggest what, in their opinion would have been a wiser course), did not hesitate to say, be should have been better pleased, had Ai mee been given to Austria ; had the :south of Ger many extended its frontier to the Rhine ; had Prussia gained an accession of territory opposite her fron tiers, and bad the Netherlands been indemnified by the cession of a part of the Department of the North. The indemnity which this country had gained be considered of little value. It was but a paluy pay ment, which would not exceed the annual value of our Property Tax, at five per cent. It would not cever the expense of the sacrifices made by the coun try in the last year. The pecuniary sacrifices impo sed on France formed indeed that part of the Treaty which he viewed with most pain. These, in the first instance, punished equally the innocent and the guilty—those who had conspired to disturb the peace of Europe, and those who had pursued an opposite course. At the same time he considered the sums thus levied tended to keep up the military spirit of the people, as every Frenchman, when compelled to pay for the maintenance of a foreign army, would. feel that he might as well contribute to the support of an army of his countrymen. This feeling being thus kept alive, when at length the foreign troops were withdrawn from France—when the Allies would be attending to what more immediately interested them—then, France would rise in terror before them, unsubdned by those, who had overrun her territory, and remembering only the injuries she bad received, she would seek but to revenge them. and England, from her engagements to defend the Netherlands, would be the power most exposed to this re•action.— The Treaty he held to be impolitic, since it caused England to be regarded as a new military power on the Continent. and, of course, it could not be one of the greatest magnitude. All through the Treaty he thought be could trace the successful exertions 44* influence of Russia. The arrangements it contained. all favoured her policy. The Treaty went to furnish England with perpetual military occupation en the frontier of France, and left Russia at leisure to form plans, inconsistent with the security and repose of the rest of Europe. It bad been said that those cessions of territory which he and others wished to have been demanded of France, would not bare been granted by the french King. He, however, could not believe that Louis XVIII. who owed his crown to England —who reigned but by our sufferance. would have dared to refuse what Louis XIV. had offered to con cede. He believed Ministers had bad other motives for not demanding the cessions in qtiestien, than those arising Irons an apprehension, that Louis would have resisted them. He believed they bad been restrained by personal feelings for the royal family of France. They had failed to urge this point from an idea, that it it were premed, the Kin would lose whatever hold he might have had on theTeelings of the French peo. ple. Much had been said of the glory acquired by this nation, in having been made the rallying point of legitimacy. He for one was disposed to uphold the claims of legitimacy —but when these were pushed to the extent of forcing, flovercign on a people in opposition to their wishes, he could not bat view Mich a principle as the bane of mankind, and as cal. *elated to produce the greatest evils • that could afflict humanity. Under all the circumstances of the we, be could not give the address his support. Mr. DOUGLAS strongly opposed that dismember ment of France which' had been recommended by Gentlemen on the opposite side cf 'the House. — France would 'more have resented die loss of Alsace and Lorraine than all the demands which had been 'made by the Allies. Shi could not have forgotten the lou of places which bad producejl so many of her most distinguished characters in modern times, lit a few years. Those who were taking such a eeurse as the Honourable Gentleman opposite had recommended, ought to bear in mind that that would have been permanently to punish the innocent with the • guilty. He approved of what had been ' done, as the sacrifices called for were both partial .and temporary. He also approved of the Treaty, in asmuch as it held out a boon for repentance , and I gave France a prospect of regaining that greatness in peace which she had lost in war. He defended the powers with which the Allies had thought it right to entrust the Duke of Wellington, and maintained the restoration of Louis was necessary to effect the total action of the system of Bonaparte. Considering Ltstr Treaty to give security for the present, and peace k ik the future, he should vote for the address. , Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY said, that as he could , not possibly give his sanction to the Address, which went to give unqualified praise to such a peace as that which had been lately concluded, and to the cures on which it had been founded, he could not give a silent vote on the present occasion. He conceived he would not discharge his duty as a Mem -1 beT of the Legislature, did he not take the present opportunity of expressing his disapprobation of most of the measures on which the late peace had been founded. The question before the House was too =and important in its nature to be passed over y. It involved considerations of the most vital importance to a free people. The Noble-Lord (Cas dmeagh) who had opened the debate, had put two' great questions before the House. The first was, the, right which one country had to interfere in the in..er. sal policy of another; and the second,,whether, un der any circumstances, one country would be justi. led in such interference. He (Sir S. Romilly) would not enter into the abstract question, whether, in some certain cases, such interference would not be justi fiable; but on the general principle, and on the cir cumstances under which this interference had been used, he was prepared to meet the Noble Lord. He (Lord Castlereagh) had triumphantly mentioned the case of the triple alliance which had been concluded in 1717, to support the Protestant succession in Eng land, and the succession in France, as it had been established by the Treaty of Utrecht. He had also alluded to the quadruple alliance which had been concluded in the next year for the same object, and he bad observed, that such internal interference, as he called it, was sanctioned by the Whigs of that day ; but would the Noble Lord make no distinc tion between an alliance formed for the purpose of forcing a King on a people against their expressed will, and one which had only for its object the gua ranteeing a succession which had been already esta blished by the consent of the two nations to which the allusion had been made ?—(Hear, hear ) —There was no analogy whatever between the two cases 1 their object was as distinct as any two things could be. The Noble Lord bad exulted in the two cases which he had cited, with as much joy as if they had been the most appropriate ; but he (Sir S. Romilly) could not avoid remarking, that this exultation was one of those short-lived—those five-minute triumphs which he had, a short time back, taxed the Gentle men on the opposite side of the House with enjoying —(llear, hear). —The Noble Lord had, in a strain of irony peculiar to him, charged the Whigs of the pre sent day, with having acted on principles quite din. tinct from those of the ancient Wi.igs ; but if he (Sir S. Rol:0111y) were disposed to recriminate, he might fairly charge the Tories of the present day with ' having gone from that line of policy which had been pursued by their ancient predecessors of that name., The Noble Lord, however, had not ma4e out such a case as would justify him in asserting that the diffe *fence he had described existed between ancient and modern Whigs, the cues mentioned were by no means analogous. The question at present before the House was not such a one as had been acceded to by ancient Whigs; it was not whether one coun try had a right to guarantee-the adopted Government of another, but whether, under all the circumstances. which the case of France embraced, one country had a right to choose the Sovereign of another, and to place him over it, against the will of the people of that country, by open force ? (Hear4hcar.) Not w ith. -standing ell the disclaimers which had been used against internal interference, this was, in fact, the 1 question which was then before the House. It had been objected by several Members of the House, at the commencement of the late war, that it was en tered into, and carried on, for the purpose of sup porting the family of the Bourbons ; and this had been constantly denied by Ministers and treated as a calumny of their intentions. He very well remem bered that when an Honourable Member, whose death was so deeply and justly regretted, and whose loss . wits generally felt on several occasions, but p.ittieu larly on such as the present, when that lamented man (Mr. Whitbread) had asked the Noble Lord opposite (Castlereagh) whether the report of the issuing of a proclamation by the Duke of Welling ton on his entrance into France, in which he declared that he had come to restore the Bourbons, was cor rect ? that Noble Lord declared that it was not, acrd that the circulation of such rumours was only intended to calumniate the Government, which had never enter 'skied such intentions as had been ascribed (to them. It had also been expressly mentioned in the Declai a tioll made by his Majesty's Ministers in explanation of the lith Ankh of the Treaty of Vienna, that al though the several Contracting Powers - had invited his Most Christian Majesty to become an acceding party to the Treaty, yet, nevertheless, it was nut their (the British Ministers).intention to go to war forth, purpose of establishing him (Louii) or any other ruler over the French nation contrary to their own wish..—.{Here the pion. Member read part of the Declaration to which he had alluded.]—He would Contend, from this circumstance, and from what since happened, that it was then the intention of Ministers to support the Bourbons ; but of course they did not think it politic at that time to explain their real object ; they had a particular and favourite measure in view, and if they accomplished it by duplicity and decep. thin of the people it was well, 'provided they did ac complish it..—(Haer.)--iThe letter of Earl Ctanearty, J oftt;e Gth of M. to the same ear shortly after the had made Duero to take the Tre; as its basis. These , to Lord Clanc. the Allied Saver , were immediar !sister to this would read some had been then ted any passages sent question, • 'would correct read several ev Allied Sovereigi rations, and all have already g' substance, ilia! answer to the Bonaparte, hui declaration of I in hostility with from choice by Treaty with ' its observance ; Treaty which ever much (licit of Louis XVI steps to place th.lit using chi wish to interl, tion in the eh, cessary for the not have a nir was incompat Itomilly) did the mysteries not hesitate to understanding luded, he WOI which he had literal meanie the Allies to h in the appoint (Hear, hear, fry able. Member to ante to thi he (Sir S. R( planation whit in the Dech no other. 'l' part of the i French nation they were by of their Sovereli Bonaparte, an( wished to make and it was cilitated the even after nation coul( He did, not meal in favour of a struggle soul , which the lives sacrificed, if the understani dared, was c supporters of sal liberties. — k which had been of the Allies but he won( what had shit. who had made bringing Lot - " armed turce, that force, on of its people, Allies had and had onl: held, for thi more effectu then content their condth count of the and dangers established ; a coalition of acting in the against the conjunction the King of The same re, of the one, ma' the other.--( what is now rence WAS RV essential to should pause before they gave tie votes to such a principle, and reflect, established,' it may hereafter be used for tion of some of their dearest privileges. (. Atteight•hereafter be objected by a pant' reign Sovereigns, that the freedom of was allowed in that House, the liberty or any other dear privilege of the against the welfare of their several States, might claim their abolition from an narch, who, having such a precedent would not hesitate to comply with the faithful Allies, when it was proved to be 10. neral security.—( Hear, hear, hear.) I.,lett Noble Lord himself seemed to hint at rence, when he spoke of the principles of termed modern Whiggism, ,and of the which the Members of the House should foreign Princes.— (Hear, hear.) The then took a view of some arguments which hati° advanced in favour of the late Treaties, bid 6 ° ° , others, that the French nation felt grateful ty terference which had been made in their intefol a i , cerns. • He denied that the French were milk ' that interference: on the contrary, they dttested o by whom it was made, and the family for vhce had been made; they disliked the terms nt the Tog and 'wedld observe them no longer than Oafs" able opportunity offered of getting rid of the (Rear, hear.) It would be recollected, that the° Won on that interference, .at least as far at eer, the invosion of France, which Louis biota ,been obliged to give to the Chamber of Der° was most unfavourable to it. He said to theasi, l if be governed any other nation than France' 0 • 44, to his M aty ' s a ifect. It Wo uld m lf r he arrival of Bonapirteli'N. uCta 'nut..., of peace to th . ,,,„"at% "P ie %:aty of lb 14, i n i t , '07"."41, he' h These overture, h ad be 14.. P411- . the' :arty at Vienna, t o ta k e t r i n ra t at iovereigns on th em , ▪ use ttely given, and sent b ack • 1 au g c e o: ime passages fro, th e 0.,1;„Li creed, 1 given, and he hoped, er' attracts rntitheCoetusil beforerll a ; n i edd l htes l: :: :c p cu l tur e a t it: t s ir:o * the Noble Lord opp,,,i tef l- 404 that d : him. [The linnotadlJle‘i,,‘ : i i l g i n ti s on that OCCISion, IZ' ar 7:1 e overtures which 1W htC111:. iiimßli.nothnthrdiaTlep.heyaltb"ntcorleoleetaeniir:dt(daStcercllii'Sn:jele4llit.ti'47lT-rt4db,,,,'164:114-I.'" reed, t the 13ill of March. Ti l -- )tit necessity. "I'llat metro , I. ..1 e, he having already brokea Sr. a had been male in 184, icir general feebly, b e di VIII. They would not ti..t * ii e him over the Piench pe " • )eie own influence. That he security of Europe, thatri l Y • i atible with that seeuri.y fare►au ioj nn t c:otw d vo i iep p ft rh i r o tetht m hteel i :nerd t c ßtittoi J uli a ) b E rer g st:: : i l o:(l A ufz e t: , ttin:4l : l k; F to assert, that if any nun ig ould red the p a ut th Papers i'' t,nst7elleic:ronbikei, en t d then given. He wouhi laical s ing that it was not then the ink : interfere in tie internal rol.; 4o! i i ; iintment of any one patient', from the Tre‘uury Bench).—Tile ✓ w!lo cried hear, would can e he House the cause of his eitli t e t Lomilly) should still contend that I aich he had given of the weeds laration, was their literal menni ll The conduct of Ministers, inn % : war, implied no other. Th t on bad understood it in tha w , 1 y no means to be dictated to smile. P ereign, provided that Sovereign . and from this opinion every .. take common cause in getting rile . this understanding which 41 4 e progress of the Allied aray ; t - the battle of Waterloo, the tld •have nude a great c up mean to say that it would not liana • the Ahies; bur it was certaiothe 1 couli and v. , uuld have been mak,. yes of some thousands might but f they bad not been prevetued from. toiling that the war which lied has I only a war against Bonaparte mei of his system, and not agninatitirg ( Hear, hear.)—Such was the opt seen generally entertained of tit s, even so late as the battle of IF .' tld ask, whether, 'alter the esprit& nee passed, after having seen Moe ade such apparently candid defier nig XVIII. in the train an Ira e, and placing bim, by the Assiar DR the throne el France agaizst the le, would it nut be jtiOy said intended to act so front the ly assumed the moderate tone thus• he purpose of carrying their intuits tally into execntiou ? The Hoe. idcd, that Ministers deserved cerat let in these transactions, not onlyn eir abstract injustice, but for them room precedent which they had • • ; fiir he would ask, what was to of Sovereigns at same future period he same manner with an English e liberty of his people, is which teei t with the Allied Powers, bad acted France against the liberty of his arguments which are now urged iris may, with the same force, be used —(Hear, hear.)--It may be thee •, nv so boldly asserted, that such accessary for public security, thick D the general welfare ;—but the•• • se before they gave the sanctisad ich a principle, and reflect, thatif , it may hereafter be used for the to of their dearest privileges. (HAW ereafter be objected by a junta of 01 . reigns, that the freedom of speech d in that House, the liberty of the • her dear privilege of the cotton • welfare of their several States, sail en their abolition from an Englia 0, having such a precedent before: hesitate to comply with the wishes. (lies, when it was proved to be for tte, .rit y.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Icafed , d himself seemed to hint at such' :n he spoke of the principles of whit . bdern Whiggism, ,and of the cautioo. Members of the House should slier! inces.—fikar. hear.l The Hon. Ma'