Star. — London, England, 1816-02-29 00:00:00

Ift. II f 12rged w ( A t of p r• 7 1 / 1 "tied. 'eh °e 1.. ae % j ib * 44 voi;. oPara er 44,1 11!nd n 7 1144 C %inn s 4 i 114 ( 414 /cri„, 3. = Cl e 4 =the is C 46 •-• ra.it lit c,,, ttor e th. 1,11 t -Of crpti !Ii :t ky Uunit3~ a. at• in 1)e tLituvf, u ) .; :he 'id tir)re. ut a l4 l 1 r I Irlar.:4l l Al sa l e alertly le Clog Mt. wits of oci, At the lkpgrd hr etissq ISIZII prA l sytteni. . _ , ght tic tha their has that tdvud.- lid ii ; tor t is iu II) • lnit Me 4 inly rtli th.st I.td Treasury pribcl 44 tight Ho c grouni tlized tit It atislit it coo.ti• and Lgt kct Eine reigi of ,elt dt 'be path er, cf tie itaCter rir tutv.e 'ace ; a differti 311.; ofie aNellt i It, chef ) to th° Dm ale 44 al at se e dm* • R *se aids but what was the nee* for it in isenals and depots;they 'vice sold—he eland? A establishment!, their name was French, s ., jag tatter clover ,' o harsh weaving to English ears; but rir ag il ity he also denied —they can be only useful tion obrar. It was throwing good money aftei Jpreserve t h e m, and he was of opinion that it to oa ki be ranch better to poll them down at once.— pr osperity of the country had been quoted as ra ; t erfor the continuance of this s y stem ; an in -. of donsini .n he always understood to be an o f st r ength, but here the reverse was the But if a sacrifice were to be made, he would k that the extent of territory should be relin. og le d, rather than the spirit of the Constitution. It was ridiculous to say that the increase of loon bad caused the necessity for this en . establishment. That opinion had, however, i des' u pon ; tor three years ago, when he corn : • of the erection of Barracks near Bristol and iw rol, the answer was, the state of the aountrf it. So was it now, and such would it con . u s be. A renewal of the contest with France on e would think, contemplated, even in that he objected to the present system, 'because it to aaticip ite and destroy the resources we ought c herish for a fame day. He lamented the ab. of the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) because he t h e total. impossibility of that Noble Lord's • g any explanation which would lead to influence , a nion of the House in the maintenance of the system. He world also lament that Minu te the House, would countenance this military which was wholly unfit for the sanction of a ~ House of Commons at any time, much less at t o of pr.ace—(Lard deem) • o r . LAW and Lord FOLKSTONE explained. Mr. ROBERT WARD observed, that the more subject was sifted, the clearer woul.i the neces- ' • of the proposed establishment be found. He d not, indeed, expect the concurrence of those were in the train of the flonourable and Learned Akan •n opposite— Mr. BROUGHAM here rose to order (at the moment cries of Order, were directed below the 1 , ), and said," It is not to enforce order either be the Bar, or under the Gallery, that I rise, but to upon it in the speeches of the Honourable Gen - opposite. The Right Hon.'Gentleman has that we, at this side of the House, act in some 's train : in the train of whomsoever we act, let *Right hon. Gentleman bear in mind, we receive pay."--( Bear. hear.) Mr. R. WA KU explained that, though he did not rota to depart from the expression he had used, he at to impute nothing offensive to the Honourable and Learned Gentleman o;sposite. Mr. LAMBTON—" The assertion is unfounded, that any Gentleman at th's side of the House act in y man's train—let the Right Hon. Gentleman arse those who do ?"—( Hear.) Mr. BENNETT" Atter having made the as. iestiAit is impesaiive upon him to do so." (Near.) Mr. VESEY FIIZGERALD The Hon. Credmen opposite have no right to interrupt those with whom they differ in opinion in that House, and to impute to them that they are actuated by motives less honourable than thdse which govern themselves." (flaw, hear.) Mr. BROUGHAM...." I spoke as to a fact d eat impute to the Gentlemen opposite motives • honourable than our own, but merely referred to • situations as being somewhat more lucrative." flaw, arid laughter.) Mr. R. WARD said, that the explanation of the and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Brougham) eIJ tint prevent oisn from saying, that the allusion es, at least, 'innecessary. Mr. hROUGHAA fell himself called upon to as that he made no abandonment. and gave no it:- ligation of what had fallen from him. Mr. S. Milt MEV said, it was time that those assun,ed such a .one as t h e H. Amiable and nosed Gentlens in who had i..st spoken, should be • indeu of cl.eir pr tenSii ns, when they presumed school every body w:io difLred with them...-. Hay, hear.) Mr. PONSONBY rose to s order, and said—" I • el, Sir, whether disorde., l .y language was led belete, although inadvertent expressroas might b ait been dropped, but 1 AM C(lViilCed it :las been Isfil now. The Hon. Gentlenrin, when he use's the !old schooling, is pe:ilisps unaware of the force of D'ulat t g tic to Mr.& kORTLEIrdid not mean to use 'dim :X(l47l4y ime langu age, but the term " school" was the which he thought applicable to tie line Puled by some Gentlemen opposite. When those reacted with Ministers were stigmatised as the takes of Government, lie felt himself authorised to too with the po•rase he had used. Lord EBR INGTON was not aware that the lords" minions of Government" had been used. Mr. S. WORTLEY thought he heard such an amnion last night. The Honourable Gentleman to proceeding to advert to the mode of proceeding h_lety adopted towards the Member fur Devon (Sir 1 . Ackland), when he was interrupted by cries of 16 qvition." Mr. ROBERT WART) then resumed, and ex fhed that when he talked of Gentlemen being a i tali he merely meant that they were leagues loge. kt in the opinions of one of their party. He de !bled generally the military arrangements of the ' , Ike Establishment, which were, however, greasy' laggetated in some of their items by Gentlemen op. C. With refetence to the jealousy which was k (ihservel towards a standing army, it was worth le consikring, as a matter of history, that when Darmics were in existence, and when a struggle Popular rights arose, the army which asserted po t privileges was the army of the Crown ; and Which over thew the constitution was the' one , led by P ar li ament, It had been indeed said 12y a i l l.* Lord, that a conspiracy was formed to estab. 4 military despotism 3114ircl FOLKESTONE denied that he had made :lan assertion ; lie did indeed say that the effect la w Fre4lit sysiem vas the establishment of a /Ali ;ill f t e li 3 R—lre had said nothing as. to the designs oie who were parties to it-..lie merely spoke as alts effect. ih• WARD was ready to leave out the wo-d con -14% but certainly the jet of the Noble Lord's itt t th i " W 4l , that the eil;!cr, and indeed the object, . ---"! Militates was to establish a -despotism its the .... Wintry. Of this ratnitottlaisfirdon be would on!?' say, that he clicinotbelieve it; and it was impossible, for him to meet it in any other way thin by a nega- , tire es strong as the assertion itself. After .a war of twenty-five years duration, nothing was more natural than that..the Officers should retain many of their military habits, and should not at once return to the class of citizens. He therefore saw nothing alarm ing orimeroper in Officers wishing to keep up their old anociatiuns, and exercising the same right as tradesmen and professional men did every day, in forming societies where they might meet together, and talk over their former exploits. He adverted to the necessity of protecting the forts and arsenals of the kingdom, which would be more cheaply protected by the military than by the civil power. 13:sides the naval arsenal at Chatham had been much enlarged; it was altogether a little kingdom within itself. The works had cost a million of money—(Criee of Ittor). —Were they to be abandoned to dilapidation in peace? Was Woolwich, he would ask, where there was a de pot of arms and military stores for 200,000 men, to be protected by a few watchmen ? The Honourable Member than alluded to the restoration of Charles H. and asked whether it was not on the ground of legi timacy ? The same princ:ple had been applied to the family of the Bourbons ; and he did not see how Gentlemen opposite could dispute its propriety. Upon the whole, the establishment. now proposed was ab solutely necessary for the protection of the country and our colonies, and he trusted the House would feel no difficulty in voting it. ' Mr. JOHN SMITH - began with complimenting the Noble Lord (Folkstnne) on his eloquent, manly, and truly constitutional speech, which, he hoped, would have that weight to which it was so justly en ticket, He wished, however, to say a few words on the financial system of the Right Hon. Gentleman. When the Prince Regent's Speech was read from the Chair, he had heard words of a most extraordinary nature, and which could have been introduced merely for the sake of deceiving the country. his Royal Highness was made to say, that the trade and com merce of the United Kingdom were in a most flou rishing situation ; but he appealed to every man within these walls - , (and there were many of the first importance in the City of London), . whether this statement was correct ? There never had been'a pe riod, with tne single exception of the year 1810, in which grea t er commercial distress had prevailed in every part of the country. An account had been laid on the table of the emoutst of the exports of last year, ending in October, contrasting it with that of 1814. It appeared that there was an excess, but the inference which the Right Hon. Gentleman drew from it was most false. He would refer him to the year 1810, a year of the greatest commercial enter prise, but at the same time one of the utmost disas ter. The Right Hon. Gentleman ought not to have put such language into the month of the Prince Re gent. He (Mr. Smith) had stated, two years ago, that there was a delusion in the House with respect I to our finances ; and he was now convinced, that un less Government kept up the whole of the war taxes, we had no revenue to apply to our peace establish ment. If there were not an Income Tax, not merely at five per cent. but at ten per cent. we had not the means of supporting the establishment now proposed. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH rose to perform a duty which be was anxious to have discharged at a much earlier bout, namely, that of protesting against a measure which, in his judgment, would lead to the' substitution of a military Government, instead ef the free Constitution of this Country. He had lissened with the utmost admiration to the forcible, electueut, and constitutional speech of the Noble Lord : it c 0..- tained (said the Hon. Gentleman) more old English t.pirit, and more sound old English principles, than any speech that I ever delivered within these walls— (et kiosk )-1 mean, than a iy that I ever heard deli vered. lie would leave his Majesty's Ministers to ; defend themselves otgainst the speech of the Hon. Gentleman ( Nlr. Ward), and in his view of this sub ject lie would not enter into any controversy with the_ Right 11.11. Genilem to (M.. Peel), who .had stated, as ;he resnit of his opioions. that Ireland could not be governed by the eyed Power. Ile ho noured the sincerity, the . Catitlent, and the prudence . of his observations ; ti n t he could nut forbear to state i is conviction. that the present unhappy state of that part of the Uaited Kingdom might be traced to the eepery Lews, which had deprived the people of proper guides and leaders. There were only.two countiies in Europe, England and Sp tin, where into 'enlace ex; . ted : lo: brought ;hem together with regret, and condo not mention them without a blush. TM: Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Yorke)' had state.!, that the revolution was the source of a . qandiog army in this kingdom ; but this was not the fact. Oliver Cromwell (continued the Honourable Member) was the founder of a standing army, and he employed it to expel the representatives of the people from this House, and to dace your prede. cessor, Sir, from the chair. Charles H. on his Testa ration, preserved as much of that army as he coulli James II also kept up standing armies ; but it was one of the principal points that were settled at the revolution, that they should exist only for a year, and depend entirely on the breath of Parliament.— Such was the history of standing armies; and after a period of one hundred and thirty years, his Ma. jesty's Ministers now proposed. for the first time, to withdraw them from the coturoul of the Legislature. The annual grant of money was now proposed only for a violation of the Constitution, and to keep up a • greater army than James 11. had in his hands. He agreed with the Right Hononrable Gentleman, that with respect to this establishment, it was a question of degree and ;mount. Belt he complained that Mi. nisters had said it was to depend only on necessity; it ought also to depend on the "spirit of the Constitu tion. and that question ought to be decided before the consideratiOn of coloVes and garrisons. • Gentlemen on his side were said to be guilty of calumny, in sta. tipg that there was an intention of raising a military despotism ; but he believed, that with regard to po pulation, the present establishment was greater, by 40,000'men, than the military establishment of France, compared with the number of her people. The Right Honourable Gentleman had begun - with quoting the fatal rife is of a low peace establishment in the years 1744 and 1779; and he (Sir James Mackintosh) had heard with astonishment that a late Minister, in 1793 i hid regretted his reduction of the standing army. He was fully assured that no such Sentiment had hten expressed by that • ißuittriuus character; but ,114;Ai— a it • bait It would tare been a most absurd pro position.* Did any roan think that 10,000 men more or leas would have had the slightest influence on the great contest which we were afterwards obliged , •to maintain ? As well might a farmer, at the foot of Vesuvius, lament that he had not added a foot or two more of wall to his fence, to prevent the irruption the mountain. If we were now to have so large an establishment, what would it be when France was re stored to herself. and proposed to revenge her humi liated state ? This was not a country which required military establishments to keep up a nsilitary-spirit in the people. 011 English liberty, low peace-srata blisliments, and a stern House of Commons, had made us victorious at Blenheim and Waterloo, and the same constitutioml system would always provide us with Churchills ;rid Wellesleys. Mr. W. POLE sai•.!, Gentlemen must admit that some standing army o•ight to be kept up, and if they did not deny that position, the question .vas at an end Broad the constittrion, and must be considered only with reference to amount and degree. • Sir - FRANCIS BURDE l'T said, that he was sorry to rise at so late Ail hour of the night, but he. felt this to be a subject of such vital importance, that he should feel wanting in his duty if he did not take his stand with the Noble Lard who had preceded him, and who had so ably given his opinion. The Right Hon. Gentle Man who had just sat down, had repeated with a very triumphant air, that it was quite absurd to suppose that no standing army was neces sary ; and that the natural consequence was, that we must go into a Commitore to investig tie the sulaj.cct. But this triumphant argumrnt, he, contended, was erroneous; for nothing was more common than the mode now adopted. Supposing a Mill intended to buy an estate, hot the price of Ciat estate was so ex orbitant that he was obliged to td-ct the proposal entirely, without eataing into any particutas as to the goodness or badness of the estate, was he not competent t e a do it ? (Hear, hear.) —This then was exactly a case in point. Minisoos had made a pro position for a standing army of such an amount, and o f suc h an exorbitant. nature. as at no former period any Minister would have dared to make. We had, therefore, no occasian to go inte any detail, or to make any further inquiry ; we took our stand on the broad principle of the exorbitancy of the demand. We cared not what case was made out, or wit:tide:ails wean entered into, when in the outset a proposition was made inconsistent with the liberties of the country. . It had been said, " Perish our commerce, let our con stitution live;" but he would now say, "Perish the military establishment, let our constitution live."— The Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke before the Right Hon. Gent!eni in who had just sat down. had referred to pages of hist.o.y, and had asked eiliethr it could be said that Charles 11. was the legitimate sovereign of the coultry ? He was legitimate because he was chosen by the will of the people, .and inched to the Throne by tie Parliament of the country, and not like Louis XVIII. who obtained the Throne by the bayonet and military tore?. It had also been said by the same Rig'it Hon. Gentleman, that it was Oli ver Cromwell who ha..l dissolved the Parliament, and had first set up that military despotism so much ab horred; but this asset non, :.e contended, was not founded in fact ; for what did Cornwell do ? The whole amount of the army kept up for England, Ire land, and Scotlind, in tito , t to; bulent times, was only 2,5,000 men. If we looked hack into the p.2ges of history, and referred to all the tyrannies that ever existed, it would be seen that never was there so:th an establishment as the present. rife Roman loupe rial guard was but 1'2,000. the .14nissaries of Con stantinople amounted to only I:4000 men, and the whole despotism of Bonaparte was kept up and supported by 40,000 melt, tot ming his imperial guard. Were these 100,000 m.. 1 proposed to be kept tip an England, Ireland, and her colonies, a mere chimera, a driu,ion ? Was this immense force to be considered as nothing ? . He had always maintained the of B illngbroke, that 100 national troops within the walls wee more dangerous than 100,000 out of them. &good deal had been said about not attributing , motives to Any man btu those w hich were of the must pine nature: he perfectltagreed that the deCency of debate compelN every one not to impute.to any man within the walls of the House any motives but suds as were the must public. and least hostile tb the inte rests of the country. The decency of debate com pelled this; yet if he should be guarded by the same scruples out of the House, he should deserve to be considered as a. fuol and a hypocrite. If any con stitutional jealousy was entertained against this most scandalous and enormous proposition, we were to be taunted by Gentlemen on the other side with main taining idle chimeras. It had been also stated. that we had got rid of the bugbear of Bonapat te, and we had heard an eloquent episode, complaining of a fresh bugbear its the power of Russia. For his part, he confessed that he had no apprehensions of the kind ; he slid not.conceive that their was any danger that this country would be so soon plunged into a new war ; but, at all events, he would wish to know why this .cauatry was to .be mixed with the other Powers of Europe ; why we wire to be enslaved be. cause other ceentri , ..: were enslaved ? • What he most heartily wished was to reinstate this country in its foriner freedom. Another of those forcible argil. went: which had. been made use of by the other side was, " What I atter having gone so far, should we, relax in our exertions, and plainly confess our weakness, that we were incompetent to be on the • saute footing with. the other Powers ?" This reminded him of a story of a great hero, who, it was said, after having fought a great battle, was afraid to take off his armour, for tear of strewing some defect or weak ness. Bpi where, he . would ask, was the harm of taking off this armour which had been so long worn in the field of battle ? Where was the fear of now meeting with a foe, excepting indeed from the Bout bon family, who had been so industriously set upon I the throne ? It had been further urged, in the same ingenious strain,. that there might be a resurrection of the French army ; but whether it was meant that those French soldiers who were killsd in the battle of Waterloo were to be called from their graves, or that the devil should lend his wings to assist Bonaparte in his flight from St. Helena - to head these men so risen, he knew not; bat what he was afraid of, what he most dreaded, was the grievous distresses of the con try, the national debt, and the immense peace esta blishment; these were subjects which called fcir just alarm; and retrenchment should be the word. in every Englishman's mouth. This was not the time when .; we should be amused by idle stories of rent' rreetions and insurrections without the least foundation. or the least pretence to truth or accuracy. Ali Honourable Gentleman, ..vho had spoken early in the deb ate, hid dwelt much up m the degradation of the lieu!, if they were disbanded. Were gre ladiers, it was asked, .to return to that degrading employment of dustmen :m coal heavers ? lie should he very glad to see them in such situations; and he knew of no emplay ment, however low or degrading it mig!it to some appear s which was not entitled to be r..speeted by the greatest men in the country.—Ufear, kw', kill. As to what had been said about grtnaditos turning scavengers and dustmen, he believed that tiere were pars •as in much higher ranks of society who were quite as well inclined to do dirty work ! (thar.)— it was notorious that the G ua rd s we r e ern Any v d an common work in town ; and it was not t' ou . 1 :t dis. cieditable. What was said about dignity was all sham pretence, and must tail of exciting symp ithy. lithe merits orsoldiers deserved the continuance of pay after disbanding them, he ,hold not olia,•ct to that. But the great expenses of these establishments went to other people, whish he was for saving. though he would reward the soldier. There was a set of men coke everlooked—the Midshipmen, who must be considered as Gentlemen, and haJ scienti. fie education, were turned adrift up'.n the world.—. Though frieni!ly to economy. he was no enemy to ress 'ed., but he was so to a detrimental sye. tem. Ti' S:...:..tary of State for Ireland had drawn such a lamentaole and disgraceful picture of Ireland, as slice: ad it to he out of the state or a civilized ciety. Yet Ireland was not menti - nted in the speech froni the Throne, which was a sin of omission as cul. pable ac a sin of commission. By °inkling all men. lion of Ireland, it ni;glit lie supposed that Ireland was allade.l to as well Etagl.nd, wham the non. fishing" state of co.,iitnerce was spoken of. 11.4 did it happen that near the ciose of !.he Antes i. Call war, when the combine] fleets were riding in tile Channel, and threatening invasion—when Ireland was without troops, she people ruse as one man, With Lord Charlemont at their head, and decanted the enemy from his threatened attempt to lend t —But the 'whole case was not 1,41 open t it mainly rested on the illicit disti:lation of whisky. —So inadequate were the causes assigned I We were to keep down Ireland by the sword, to pre. vent illicit distillation. This ha was unwilling to agree to. The troops were stationed forth,. purpose in Ireland in several hundred different positions. As to this great question of immorality, he apprehended there was no prohibitioo to the people to buy what he might call the Government whisky. Tne more they drank that, at a high price and inferior quality, end thereby paid the duties so much the better, and then we should indeed hear of the flourishing. stare of the revenue. This was keeping up a sham force for morality, and a real one for revenue. He had been told that this illicit whisky was se mulch superior, that it was drank at the table of the Viceroy, (hear,) and that the officers commanding the detachment would not drink the Government whisky.—(Laugh.)—But why not remove the cause of ail this evil, and do as was done by the Commutation Tax respecting tea. of which, till the duties were removed, the smuggliese could not be stopped ? By economy alone we mild alleviate the binthens,Und dispense with this whisky revenue. Bot this subject demanded consideration by itielf, and he shouts! pursue it no farther. Toe e:tablisliwent to be maintained in Englaod was o f greater importance : as to increase of popolation, he ' thought that argurnJot applied the other way, though it hod been said that the army could not prudently be kept, even on the propo s ed footing, without having its outposts in France, where. by the bye, they were to be employed in keeping down the people of France.— A greater population should require less military force. It was rather on the militia, en the volunteers, and on the affection of the people, that Government should depend to maintain the Chiotitution, and to defend the country against the attacks of foreign ene. uhes—(hear.) Then the great number of our cola nies was urged as a reason fora great torce. If there was no apprehension of insurrection in the . colonies, he could see no reason fur this. On what other ground could danger be apprehended ? Never, since England was Engiand, had' there been so little pre tence, at home or abroad, for an increased milit i ay peace establishment. A few ships of war would protect our islands. Who could or would attack us? Why have the colonies, if they only brought difficulties t He wished now to take his stand against a plan which would alter the Constitution. If, this measure was necessary this year, in what year would not circum stances be foUnd to induce its continuance ? What was called temporary would be made permanent.— In old times, when the. martial spirit of the country was as high as at present, though unmixed with any fopperies, there was no such thing as a Standing Army. When the Spani.h Ambassador expr.:sseJ his astonishment to Queen Elizabeth at seehig her going among her subjects without any guards, she pointed at the people. and said to him—" These are the guards of tbe,Crown of England."—(Near, hear, hear.) --lie trusted the House would reject the mo. Lion. He trusted they would say to his Majesty's Government—" This is so monstrous a propositiou which you have made tat, that we will not listen to it. Model something fit for the Parliament of England to consider, and then we will enter into details of the subject, and determine what relaxations and what modifications ought to take place ; but we at once reject the plan which you offer, as the adoption of which would be to pot the seal to the des:ruction of the liberties of the country."—(Hoer, hear, hear.) Mr. PIM ay Sir F. BURDETT mutually explained. Mr. TIER EY said, that ell that eloquence, know ledge of history', and honest English feelings could do. had been attempted. He participated in them, but should not rake up the time of the house by weaken log their effect. He had suggested a call of the House, because, if evor there was a question that con. corned the great landed interest, it was . the present. Now they bad a full attendance, and to that great body he particularly desired. to address a few words, without going deep)) , into the subject. He hoped to shew aprina facie case against this large establishment, which at behoved Ministers to answer. He could not do so, if he did not briefly notice the state of out finances first. He could skew the absolute necseski of real economy. We had for near 25 years eo o. tended for the overthrow of the military domination France, and bad at last met with success that ex% creded ;he hopes of the most sanguine. We had de-