Star. — London, England, 1811-07-18 00:00:00

that it was in his power to have eorrieted those abuses. It he had, it MULL have been A very :trona obli6atiou of secrecy that would keep him silent, • • After a short explanation from Sir NV. Scott, Lord C chrane's first motion was put, and carried neat. can. Ills second motion was not seconded, and , therefore fell to the ground: PifliMßEltll o BEING) BANK PROPRIETOO. Mr. CRELVEY brought forward the motion of whiCh he had given notice, that no Member being a Bank Proprietor should vote on the bill'now pending. He began by moving, that extracts of the Journals should be read ; by which it appeared, that upon the question of the compensation• to holders of stock lathe Loyalty Loan, Mr. Rose, and Mr. Huskisson, who were both contributors to that loan, were not con ceived entitled to vote upon the question. At that time another Gentleman, Mr. Manning, appealed to the Speaker, to know ss hat he should do ; and Lord Sidmouth advised him to withdraw. There was another instance, where a•much more minute interest WAS supposed sufficient to prevent Members from YO-. ting. There had been a corporation for supplying bread, in which the shares were only fifty pounds ; and yet this was supposed interest enough to make it improper for a Member to give his vote upon that question. With those instances before him, he did net suppose that it would be conceived extraordinary in him to put it to the sense of the House, whether 45 individuals, being Bank Proprietors, shcmid have votes upon a question materially affecting the profits of the Bank ? 1n 1797 the Bank was restrainedly an Act of Parliament from paying their lawful creditors.-- Since that time, upon their capital of eleven millions, they had issued notes to the amount of more than 22 millions. They had divided among themselves bo nus'e to the amount of 6 millions, which was more than half of their original capital. They had raised their dividends from 7 per cent to ten per cent. and the value of their stock bad increased from 118 per cent. to at least double that amount. What greatsr interest could any individuals have in the discussion of a question than the Bank Proprietors Lad in the present instance ?. He waFeafraid, in the presence of Ministers and Bank Directors, to use the word '6 depreciation," as those Gentlemen would say that this was a language only fit for 6 , Jews and ped lars." The operation of this bill would, however, give the power to give to the vilest rags whatever de nomination of money they thought proper. Tire Bank Directors were now the greatest men in the state, since they were protected from paying their debts.— The Constitution used to be said to consist of King, Lords, and Commons ; but now the Constitution seems to be the King , the Bank; and Leadenhall street. (A laugh.) An Honourable Beak Director (Mr. Baring) had said, the other day, 'that he had but 12000 in the Bank, and therefore could not be said to have any interest ; bet W man, having but 12000 was appointed a Bank Director, and immedi ately enabled by his interest to lend ,6200,000 to a mercantile house, this was a very important takes*. On looking over the list of Bank Proprietors, the name which stood at the top of the list was Lord Arden.— Although that Noble Lord refused to tell the Corn. mime what were his emoluments; and said that his fees were his freehold, yet it appeared by the exami. nation of his deputy, that besides his emoluments, amounting to at least twelve thousand per annum, lie had always iii his hands, upon an average, about /200,000 of the money of others. Now, it he chose to buy Bank-stock with this money, it was evident that his interest was very great. Now, when those who acted like another Noble Lord (Lord King) were compared to " pedlars and Jews," he hoped that it would be recollected that other Noble Lords had stood up as gallantly for their property, and that Lord Arden, who refused to ;ive an account of his fees (however he might vote on this question) had shewn at least as great a regard for his property as Lord King had. When this was considered, he hoped that the allusion to a Jews and pedlars," would be sparingly used. He concluded by moving— That It appeals to this House that in consequence of an Act Tossed in the 37th year of his Majesty, for protecting the Bank if Eiiglatitt from payment of its lawful creditors in specie, the pro fi.s of that Corporation have encreased to an enormous degree ; that besid..s increasing the dividend upon their capital stock from it to 10 per cent. t hey have at different times divided amongst themselves, In the way of bonus, upwards of six millior sof 'money, being more than one-half of their capital stock ; and that in addition to such profits, their capital stock has, by the advan tages of increased Issue...of their paper, and lion-payment of their creditors, been increased from Xi 13 per hundred to 4 230; that, under ,urli circumstances, a bill is now pending in this House, givi ng a legal value in the coin of this realm to the notes to be Issued by such Bank, however indefinite such issues may be, and protected as the Bank still is from payment of its creditors, by means wh:.-reof the issues lit notes, and the profits of the Bank may be even still further and greatly encreasee; that various Members of this House, are Members, likewise, of the said Cor porat.en o the Bank, and Proprietors of Batik Stock ; and that this House is 01 ion that such Members have a direct hitt re tin passing this bill into a law, and that chair votes in fivoar or the .b.infe ougt:t to be disallowed. Mr. Nl,-IN:NING had no hesitation in saying that he was the person alluded to by the Honourable Gen tleman who spoke last. The effect of his vote on the question of the Loyalty Loan, if he had been allowed to give one, would have been to put £lOOO into his own.pocker, in consequence of the 810,000 loan of which he was a holder. Here, In wever, the present Bill could not affect him, or any other Bank Direc tor or Proprietor, to the amount of half-a:crown.— Let the Honourable Gentleman look to the question before the House, and see what effect the votes of ' the - Dilectors and Proprietors of the Bank, only 40 in number, could have upon it. -The last division was 135 to r,+, and itthese +0 were excluded, what difference could. that make ? As well, however, might all Country Gentlemen have been excluded from voting on the Distillery Bill ; or all West In dia Proprietors on the Sugar Bill, or on the Bill for the Relief of the Colonies. He, for one, should con tinue to discharge his duty in that House honestly and faithfully, without regard to the present Bill, which, whether passed or rejected, could not encrease or diminish his property to the extent of sixpence. Mr. DENT thought, that the' individual Bank Proprietors could have no interest in,the question suf ficient to deprive them of their right of voting. lac was very sorry for the manner that the Noble Lord's name had been introduced. He was not a Member of that House to be able to speak for himself, and the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr.. Perceval) would probably be prevented by feeling a ; pride from noticing it. Mr. LONG was satisfied that every Gentleman in .the House would see the motive- which induced the Honourable Gentleman to attlect the uansoOf Load Arden t it was . inviclinusly introtluded—g-Wr. ereeiiy denied that he had so introduced it.) —The manner, the time, and the observations, were too glatin7, not to convince the House of the motives of the Honoura ble Gentleman.--'( Hear, hear.) --With respect to the question," if persons were not Ahmed vote because they might have a profit in the subject under discus sion, that doctrine would go the length of infringing on the liberties of the House. if the right of Voting was to be refused to Bank Directors, there was not an individual in- the House who - might not be said' to be interested, for there was'not a holder of Bank , notes who was not eventually, perhaps, to be benefited. Mr. W. SMITH did not see that there was any fair application of the argument rolative to the ex clusion of the Corn-growers. They were not a cor poration—they had not an united interest, and that interest was not against the public in general. The Bank, too, had an enormous profit concerned in theiP vote. For some time before the restriction, their di vidends were 'only seven per cent. But M the four teen years which have since followed, the dividendi have been ten and three quarters, and notwithstand ing this expenditure, their capital had increased fifty per cent. An idea of their profit might - be formed from ithe recollection, that money left to accumulate only doubled in fourteen years. But bereaves an es‘, penditure of double the usual interest on which money grew, and yet the money doubled in spite of the expenditure. No body of men should be allowed to legistate avhen their interests were directly and pe culiarly affected, and this was the ptinciple of all trusts as well as those of legislation. He did not affect to praise Lord King's conduct, but rather thought, that in that Noble Lord's place he would tot Gave acted in a similar manner. Mr. BANKES thought the Bank proprietors ought • to be permitted to vote. • Mr. ABERCROMBY thought they ought not.— 'The connection between the Minister and the Bank j was already too strong, and the vote of the proprie- I tors on the present occasion ought not to be added to what they had already done. It was the Bank that called for the Restriction in 1797,. by complaining that they could not pay their notes but by the singu lar medium of other notes. The names of Lord King and Lord Arden had been brought together : but certainly with different merits. Lord King's conduct was only matter of private concern, arising from his private conduct of his private affairs Lord Arden held the public money to an immense amount, and when called on for an account of it, his cry to the Commissioners was, " tell me first, are you going to deprive me of my freehold ?" (Hear.) Was it won derful that so surprizing an answer from so public a man, should have excited public, universal, and still lunsatisfied surprise ' The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER contended that there was not the propriety in the introduction of the name of Lord Arden into the dis .cussion, as there had been in the introduction of that of Lord King. He did not see that the circumstance of Lord Arden's name happening to stand at the head of the list of proprietors of Bank stock justified the Hon. Gentleman in referring, on an occasion like the present, to that Noble Lord's examination before a Committee, on a subject of a very different nature As to Lord King, the subject could not he disci' ssed without mentioning him. The very subject of the debate was the conduct of that Noble Lord, and the very ()Wet of a Bill bJore the House to prevent hat conduct from becoming general. The HMI. Mover . had treated this subject, as he had frequently treated other subjects, with a sort of irony it a character s doubtful as to leave his true memling completely un certain. Fortunately that did nut much slimy. T . ( shew the error of mentioning; the name of Lord icily, he mentioned the 'fame of Lurd Arden ; and then said that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had been as unjust in the one case, as he (Mr. Creevey ) was in the other. The injustice of the Hon. Mover was unquestionably very apparent ; and so far he was certainly extremely happy in the instance which he had afforded. He (the Chancellor of the Exche quer) denied that he had ever called Lord King a Jew nr a Pedlar. Wh it he had said was, that the N:ible Lord was the first individual cf . his description, who had acted in the way in which Jews and Pedlars were gccustomed to act. As to the question itself, the argument of his Hon. Friend near him was con clusive upon it. Mr. HIBBERT said he should oppose the Reso lutions. There was scarcely a question in which some Gentlemen might not be more or less interested than others, but still the good of the whole arose out of the accumulated interests of individuals.— (Hear.) He should oppose the Bill, but he could not think that the smelt proprietors should be prevented from supporting the Bill if they thought tit to do so. He was not one who would be suspected of flattering the Bank Directors. He had been and was anxious for placing a limitati•n to their discounts, but he must say, that during the thirty years that he had been a merchant, he never yet heard their conduct arraigft ed.—(lhar !) Mr. CREEVEY then shortly replied. He begged leave to disclaim all the apologies, direct and indirect, that had been made by his Honourable Friend or others for his introduction of the name of Lord Arden. (A laugh.) He did not think any apology called for, and he should make none. He frankly admitted, that he particularly specified , Lord Arden for one reason among others, because he w a s the brother of the Right Honourable Gentleman who hada)een so forward in his strictures upon the conduct of Lord King, for doing nothing more than what Lord Arden had before dome.' He found the name of Lord Arden at the head of the; list of stock-holders, and that he was in possession of £200,000 of the public money. He had in that in stance provedhimsella vigilantdefender of his property in fees. Lord King had only resorted to the known law of the land to defend his property. So far the cases were not dissimilar. (Hear, hear, from Ministers.) He contended that it was in both cases a defence of property, with this difference indeed, that Lord King acted in defence of his hereditary property in land, while Lord Arden was the strenuous asserter of his I own overgrown property in the profits arising out of I the abuses of the state. (Hear, hear.) There was this difference between the two cases, but no other. As to the jokes of the Right Honourable Gentleman, while he had so many around him . so eager to laugh ; at them, before they were well heard, he (Mr. C.) could not think of contending with the Chancellor of the Exchequer in iesting. The S P.EtilfsEß said, that the question was a asters oite a law-and tact, it rn4 f ht be tiintight 40 tall his duty to state his opinion of the law. He took it as a rule perfectly established for the last WO years, and even then an old rule, that interest did always! disqualify ; it must, however, he a direct pecuniary interest, and separately belonging to the individual : the question of fact was before tile House, and noon that they would decide•how far it came within the operation of the law. This was for them to prc.r.ounce and not for him to say.—The motion vu then neg....- dud without a division. GOLb COIN BILL. On the question for the House going Into a Com mittee on the above Bill, Mr. BANXES was anxious to fix the attention of the House on the miserable nature of the silver coin: age which had been just issued. It was a disgrace to the arts in this country, and it would be no unbecom ing consideration to contrive some way of remedying what, though it might appear a trifling, was really a national discredit. He mentioned this in the hearing of the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), because, though he was not actually an operator in the Mint, he was supposed to have an office of some kind or other there (a laugh.) Mr. DENT wished the merchants had done as they did in 1745, and by resolving to take the Bank paper, saved the necessity of the present Bill. - Mr. BROUGHAM objected to the Committee, as no probable alteration could make the Bill palatcable to him. But he wished to knew as to'the new coin, whether it was coined at his Majesty's Mint? Well, then, if it was, who paid the expence ? What was its value ? How much alloy was in it ? What was its weight ? Was the alloy copper or tin ? The bankers were in want of change, and they could not get 20 worn shillings for the undepreciated pound-note. And from some mismanagethent in the new coinage, its value was above that of the note still, and the ban kers were obliged to give an agio 17s. per cent. for those three-shilling pieces. Mr. MANNING, in answer to the question of the Honourable Gentleman, stated, that the three-shilling tokens contained nine pennyweights and eleven grains of silver, which, according to the present price of sil ver at ss. I Id. per oz. made them worth 2s. 9td. each. Whether the issue of these tokens were right or wrong was not then the question ; they had bent issued pursuant to an Act of Parliament, which had been passed for the purtkose. Mr. ROSE said, that before the order was made for the issuing of Bank Tokens, a Committee of the Privy Council had examined I 9 or 20 of the most emi nent Bankers in London, as to the propriety of such a measure, who had all strongly recommended it. Mr. P. MOORE said, that the state of the coun try did not call for this measure ; that there was no Parliamentary grounds shewn for it, no necessity attempted to be asserted in the Bill. That there was specie enough in the country, as might b. shewn from the reports - tit the Bank Directors themselves, if mea sures of confidence were adopted to call it into cir culation. Mr. N VANSITTART said, that when he heard that an Hon. and Learned Gentleman near him was abeut to propose a series of Resolutions, he had felt no small degree of alarm, but that alarm was in a good degree quelled, by :he specim‘ei afforded by the .1-earned Gentleman (a his reasoning on the subject. Mr. Betoucill...m explained. The Holi,e then divided on the question of going into a COnlnoittCe, sthen there were—For the Com mittee 75—Against it I I—Majority 64. Oil the re-admission of strangers, the House was in a Committee on the Bill, and the CHANCELLOR of the Ez , massmett was on his legs explaining the amendments ashich he intended to propose. The first was, in the first clause, to render the wording of it more precise. The second amendment was, in the second clause, to introduce the words, that every person who shall offend therein, shall be deemed and adjudged guilty Id a misdemeanour." 'The third amendment was a' Itlause to make the offending against the act in Scot land a rnisdeme tnour punishable by fine or imprison ment, or both, in the same way as in this country. - A long conversation took place in the Committee upon the Principle of the Bill, which has already been discussed on the second reading, and will be debated"' main on the third reading, in which Mr. W. Sutra, MY. TAYLOR, Mr. THORNTON, Mr. DENT, 11410 BANKES, Lord FOLKESTONE, Mr. JOHN SMITH, Mr. TIERNEY, Mr. VANSITTART, and the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, took part. The several clauses, with the amendments, were in the end agreed to. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought it would be convenient for all parties to come to some understanding, whether the debate upon the principle of, the measure should take place upon the report, or upon the third reading? After all that had passed, he did not think it would be .desirable to the' House to have two more long debates on this measure. Mr. ABERCROMBY stated that an Honourable t ,tiend of his, the Member for Worcester, now absent, had given notice of his intention to move a clause for limiting the issue of bank-notes • and that he had no doubt but his Honourable Friend would acquiesce in •itriy arrangement the House should make. Mr. BROUGHAM stated, that the notice of his Resolutions stood for Friday. The CHANCELLOR of the-EXCHEQUER then suggested, that the debate on t;.e Bill should take place on the Report, this day (it being past 12), and the debate on the Resolutions on Friday. Mr. TIERNEY observed, that the Resolutions might be discussed this day, and the Bill debated on Friday. Mr. BROUGHAM, having to attend before the Privy Council this day, and also in the House of Lords, could not bring on his Resolutions ; but as they related to the principle of the Bill, the debate on them, and on the third reading of the Biil, might be taken as one debate on Friday. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER acquiesced, provided that the Learned Gentleman would consent to state all the arguments with which he meant to support fits resolutions on the question for the third reading of the Bill, and when that should be disposed of, he might move his rsolutions. The House then resumed, and the report of the Bill was ordered to be received this day. Mr. TIERNEY moved for copies of all communications be• tweet' the Dirvctors of the Bank, and the Chancellor of the Ex chequer respecting this measure. It was of importance that the public should know what was the opinion of the Bank upon this measure. ' i After a few words from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Atiasibig sat 44. Mow,. Oa questions was put mad siagneeeds ~ ~,-, P LONDON. _ tVENtIVI STA. THURSDAY, SLILY 111; PRICE CIP STOCKS THIS DAY AT ONg &MOGI& 3 per Ct. Coot for money mod sce,unt 61+ 62 • e. die; ° 3 p rC. Reduced 62.1 t —Nilry :per Cent. 93i} er !i‘t 4 per Cent 784/-43ond, 114. 12,. prem.—Otnnium 2 dia. Excite+ (3d.) yar to 24. preen.--thito (Sid.) 54. 61. pram. WINDSOR -CAiTLS, SULY 17. is His MAJESTY has had some sleep during the night, and his disorder has not increased since yestera day. (Signed) " BAILLIE, HE3ERO2IO, WILLIS." When this Palter went to press, the only accounts which bad reached us from Windsor were, that, after issuing the Bulletin yesterday, his MeiesTY had been bled, but was still so much indisposed, that the Pains REb/INT had been sent for. On receiving this information, his Royal Highness Set out front Carlin's:A-louse, for Windsor, early this mornings ' Since writing the above, the following Bullvtlh received in town : 44 WINDSOR CASTLE. JULY 18. " His MAJESTY ha had some sleep'in the night, bnt he is not better this morning." (Signed as &dote.) We this morning received the folloveltit letter, and. from the quarter through which it copes, *e at not without hopes that it may yet prove true that the enemy hate suffered some loss in the ii.ty of Rosa'. 44 PLYMOUTH, JULY 16, Q P.M. " A Gentleman of this place s has received a letter from off L'Orient, reporting that three sail of the line and some small craft had been captured in the Medi• terranean and we understand that his Majesty's ship POMPIIY, cruizing off L'Orient, boarded a fishing boar,.„ by which she was informed that the Toulon Fleet had been at sea, and that three sail of the line and two frigates, had been lost in the Bay of Rosas." SECOND E DITION. DISPATCHES FROM LORD WELLINGTON: " fly the Lisbon Mid arrived this morning, Go. veinnient have received dispatches froth L WEL LiNcrroN to the 47th ult. Lord WELL'Novo% was at Qtri9ta de Sr. Jaoa. Upon the 22d a piccinet of the 11th Light Dragoons, commanded by Captain LLITI ENS, was surprizeJ by a strong reconnoitring party of the tnemy. " Another of our Vcquets, composed of part of .he 2d German Hussars, suffered some loss upon this I occasion. -..- " The steadiness of the Allied Cavalry arrested the advance of the enemy towards Can po Mayor, and they retired without haring been able to ,reconnoitr• our po,pion. " The enemy occupied the country between Ba. d,ijoz and Merida, and they seem intent upon col lecting provisions. Don JULIAN SANCHEY has been very actively emp!oyed in the Plains of Old C .stile, and has suc ceeded in interrupting, a convoy between CithlAd Rodrigo and Salamanca. King Jose. Pies baggage and private property has fallen into the hands of Nils As " BLAKE recrossed the Guadiana, near Trictola, and upon the 24th, was at Castillizosi marching upon Seville." Private Letters from Lisbon communicate the important fact of the Retreat of the French to Tot.. lavera, after throwing in a reinforcement of 5000 Infantry, and 1000 Cavalry, into Badajoz. We understand that on the retreat of the Bri. tish the French captured a piquet consisting of an officer and SO Dragoons. This is the only loss we have beard of. The Walsingham packet has arrived frbm Lisboa in 15 days, but she brings no intelligence in addition to that brought by the Mermaid and other arrivals. We are glad to find that the spirits of the Portuguese are by no means depressed in consequence of Lord oWat.t.moToN's retrograde movements. The following I are a few extracts from the Portuguese Papers, brought by the Wzlsingham LISBON, JUNE 55. Letters from Elvas of the 2241 instant, say little in addition to that communicatrd by Lord WaLuricrrott in his official dispatch. Our army is posted on the right bank of the Guadiana, and that of the enemy on the left of the same river. It made a reconnoitre towards. Badajoz, in consequence of which a skir -1 mish took place. in which we male some prisoners. Jusw26.—The Cadiz Gazettes which we have re ceived to the 16th instant, contain important Intel& Bence froin Catalonia and the other Spanish proa voices. In Santonha 4000 English have disembarked I I to join 4000 of ,Langa's party, and 8:k0 more be longing to Mena, to go to Pampluna: Yesterday a number of English cavalry disembarked. , Ju NE 28 —Ev'ery day the Cavalry are disembarked which lately arrived from England.—Yestet day some ships and frigates entc:••cl, convoying tss vessels, be sides a large convoy which passed to the south of uur Ear. . • SEVILLE, MAY 2L This day trrived hot from Dos Postos, 500 in , . fanny, and 40..) sick, from Esti - Ime.ciur.t. Sir J. BR AN/COMB :And Co. hare the pleasure to au. nounce, they have this day contracted with the 'fri.a. sury for a New Lottery, to draw the '2sth et Octobe; next. The Scheme will be on an entire new plan containing 10,0 19 Prizes — on l y 9981 15L4 a k 5 —.,0,006 Tickets—'more C.tpitals than usual—mete Pllll.ll thaa 1 1314310 --and no Prize under selth - r I