Star. — London, England, 1807-08-11 00:00:00

t • eeittee of Finance. He declared that it was net ~e * eg to any re •;igence in the Committee, that this R e pert was not Bruner prefenred. It was evident, thee it was too late to take . is Report into confider. aline , ie he orefent feflion, hut he hid th e e et i,e ac . tion 0 under •ending, that his Mejetty's Minitters ijerfealy agreed vete the Committee as to the mea ifires that ..vonld be ernpofed next fellion in cenee. ',pence of it. He hoped it would he found, that the Government of the country seneld aft in perfeet union with the refolutions et that Houle, for foppreffing ufelefs expenditure. After Rating, that the delay proceeded principally fr rim the non arrival of the re turns from Ireland arid Seetlend. he moved that the Report with the Appendixe , thereto, fhould be pint.. 'ed, and ordered to lie on the table. The metien was onanimoolly agreed to. OFFICES Ia EFVERSION. Mr. BANKES dared that it world not be necef .fary for him to detain the Houfe at any length, as h e fe t trered himfelf that they would he unanimous, En fnpport of the propofition he fhoold have t h e ho. 'emir to fubniit to them. As there exilled, however, ?citric dotihtcs not to fay ohjeetinns,as to the propriety "cif the cootie that he was to profile, it became necef. S. fo r him fhortly to take notice of thole doubts Eery and endeavour to remove them Illtngeth , :r. Som e perfnns had doubted whether the bill, which had paired that Houfe, and was rejected in the Lords, did not, in fume degree, trench upon the prerogative of the Crown, and others doubted whether, on the around of economy, the nation would derive any benefit from adapting it, and whether it would not hill have the fame falaries to pay. As to the Aril objeetinn refpeeting the Royal Prerogative, fn far from thinking that it would be impaired and trenched upon by that bill, he confidered that it would he re• tinted and flrengthened as loon as that bill fhould fairly come into operation. By the prefent mode of granting offices in reoterfinn, there was molt undue anecipetion of the Royal Prerogative, which (ended to weeper, and exhaust it. It was, therefore, decid edly his opinion that the royal prerogative would gain new fir ength from the adoption of this ineaor re. The raft was, for a gift in reverlion the obligation was not felt fo Ilrnngly as for a place in aelual pnf feflinn, and the gratitude for a favour which aepear ed vilionary, was not of the fame delciiptien. ' When the rever lion fhould come into actual poffeffirin, he confidered it as a fort of Yelled right, and no longer acknowledged the favour. From there confiderations, he was convinced that the benev 'knee and favour of the Sovereign would be acknowledged with more fircere gratitude, if the praelice of gr soei• g in re• vertion wa, altogether done away, and pieces were only to be difpofed of when they actually became vacant. He fhould next obferve, that as to the rib jeelion on the ground of economy, although the laving might not he immediately felt, yet ultimately it might, and probably would cattle a confidereble laving. It was very well know o, that many of thole . places which were in the contemplation of the - Crim• mittee of Finance, had very large emoluments an nexed to them, although the duty, if any, was merely trifling. It might very well happen, and it be fuppofed that it would happen, that when come of thole enormous finecure places lliould fall in, the Houfe of Commons, proceeding up n the principles which it had fanetioned in its Committee, might with to recommend the fuppreffien of loch ()fete's place. By the continuance of thole reverfionary grants, the time for retrenchment of ufelefs expenditure was put to a greater ditlance, and it was natural to fuppofe the Committee and the Houle would proceed upon the talk with great indifference, when they knew that all thefe ufelefs places which they wifhed to have fuppreffed, were already granted in revel-lion for two or three young lives. It was upon thefe principles which the Hoeft had eau', when it un.nitnotifly agreed to adopt the bill which was propefed by the Committee. It appeared, however, upon coafulting the Journals of the Lords, that the consideration of this bill bad been put off to a day fe clittant that there was nn profpeet of its being carried in the courfe of the prefect Salton ; and it had therefore happen ed that a bill, which had been unanimoully agreed to by the Houfe of Commons, and had f'r its ohjea the laying of the public money and the ltffening the burdens of the people, was thus lott in the other Houfe. Under thefe circumßances, it became his duty to propofe to the Houfe lonic mode, by which that refolution which appeared to them of fa meet( importance, fhould be reconfilerrd by that Houfe as well as by the other branch of the le - giflature.— In comparing the different modes by which that was to be done, it appeared to him that the bell mode was for the finale to prefent an humble addrcfs to his Majelly, praying him not to grant any place or rffice in revel lien until nic weeks after the beginniee of the next Sellion of Parliament. It appeared to him that this was by much the molt tinehjeeti• leeagle mode of proceeding, as it eves a matter of gr-:,t de liracy for that Houle to appear, in the ilighteil de gree, to claim the exercife f the fonetions, which belonged not to it exclufively, hut to the other branch of the Leetiflature Alin. •l'he more attached le was to the privileges and audio( ityofthat Heofe, the more anxious be was to cher ifh fopport them — the more he felt the necellity of its not Iteppiag in any degree beyond the limits of its own peculiar functions. He was therefore an xi ots that what was done upon this occarien, lhould not appear to be merely the ad of that Honk, and he therefore pre ferred the courfe that he fliould recernmend, to any refolution of the Houfe, which might appear to he made in oppotitinn to the decifien of the other Hetile of Parliament. He only %%tithed that tire two linufes thould reconfider the fubjeet early in the next &f -iron, and he would engage to fubmit the matter early to the consideration of that Houle. FL cell dd cue by rt - rovie te , "That an humble Addref s he p re r en t e d t o liiiNtijefly, requeft n t h at he would be gracinufly pk.ifed nit to grant aw; o,fiee. Place, Employment, or Salary in rer.:rir.in, or for joint in any part of the United Kingdom, tin it wuki a:ter the CJIII - of the next Sett in of Parliament " On the SPEAKER'S pottieg the quellion, no Gentleman role to oppnfe it, and it was evidently the onanimoris fenfe of the Houee agree to it. The Hon. Mr. WARD laid, that the unenimity which feemed to prevail in the Houle, renderrd it unneceffary for him to make many ebfervations, but there were lime which he could not forbear from making. Fie could not forbe.ar expreffing hi, forprize and regret at finding that the result ofthe t. I i.L.0117S of the Committee appointed to fearch the Lord,' j nr oeiss was the difcovcry that a i ill of Lin steateil. public importance and !expeaktitin haA been fejeCted. It was rather an uoufual thing, that a Bill which had paired that Houle with.fircti a (lender oppofitiom ( au oppulition from the Mirtifterial Benches) or without oppotition, (bruitf have been thus got rid of in the (otter Houfe. What was the difproition of the other Houle, or what motives could have influenced their determination, it was no! poffible for this Houle to know. Tirey knew nothing of the rejection, but from the Relit rt of the Committee appointed to fearch the Lords' journals. Ai to the details of that proceeding, they were luppofed to know nothing, and if by any indirect mean: they had fome fulpicion of them, it woold be highly irregular to take notice of! them in that Houle. He mutt therefore fuppofe that this rejection took place after folemn deliberation, and in a Houfe as lull as might be expeEted, upon a fuh jeCt of filch importance. He mutt roppore that his Majelty's Minillers, whole peculiar duty it appeared to be to attend on all great occafions, were then in the Houfe. He was lure that, it thete had not been a full attendance on fo momentous a queftion, the confederation of it would have been adjourned. He could not fuppofe they would have proceedea upon it without the pretence of fume of thofe Miniflers, whole abfence upon filch important occafions is nil:ler-Ed a piece of infufferable infolerce. Without knowing the reafons which occafiwned this repletion, or to whom to ato ihote it, we might at leall have the fatisfaftion of being lure that the mo tion for its rejection could not have proceeded from any Noble Lord, who himfelf held an immenfe fine cure, which was formerly held in tevsrlion, and which was again granted in reverfinn to one of his family. (The allot .n appeared evidently to Lord Arden, to whtfe finecure Mr. Perceval has the re ye:lion.) Neither could Inch a motion have been reconded by another Noble Lord (Lord Melville) who had alio a valuable contingent reverfion in his family. Even if that could have been the cafe, their authority wr.old have very little wei2ht with 4.00 Peers, for he could never fuppole that a Bill of filch importance could he thrown out in a Houfe corn paled of 20 or 22 Members. Notwithll meting the grave dircu(Tions which mull have taken place in the other Houfe, and the collective weight of the arittor cracy of the country, he retained the fame opinion that he had always done of the importance of the Bill, and fhould cordially fooport the preen , motion The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did nat will) to give any oppoli.ion to the piefent Motion. He biro ever thought it neceltary for him to Hate the grounds o Well induced him to accptielce. This became the more necelTary as the c induct of his Majesty's Minitlers in another place had become the Inhjeft of the fevere anim tdvection •rf the Hon. G.ortleman who fpoke la 4. In defence cf his Maje il)'s Minifters he would fay, that perhaps the rubjeCt did not appear to them to he rd th a t very great im portance which was attached to it by the Gentlemen who brought it forward. Some doubted much whe ther it was nor an atoidgement of the Royal Prern. r gative, and others doubted whether it would be at :all important with r facet to economy, as the fame falaries would continue to he fill paid. For his part, although he !fated thefe ae the doubts of others, his own opinion was not involved in them. He did not think the Bill injurious to the Royal Prerogative, for the fame number of places remained, and the crown would have hill the opportunity of difprifing of them. The permanent exercife of the Royal Prerogative would be rather frergthened by the Bill than weak ened. In point of economy, he doubted much whe ther it would at all diminith the burdens of the peo ple, as thole reverfions were often given to reward fervices which midi otherwife be recompenfed in an other manner. The great places, filch as Tellerlhips, were often given in reverlion to Chancellors, inflead of that petition which they would otherwife have a tight to claim, upon a change of Adminittration. If it were affitmed that the Bill was really of that great I importance that had been Hated, in that cafe, he would allow that his Majesty's Minillers had been very reprehenfible in nor being in their places; but it ! mutt be allowed to thofe who did not feel it in that light to exercife their judgment. He c-nfefred that tic Bill did not by any means appear fo important to I him as it did to lone other Gentlemen, but as it did not appear to him objectionable on any public ground ! I he had not given it any oppofition. He cettainly fhoold have objected, on conilitittional grounds, to' any refolutinn which wool.; appear like diftating to the other branch of the Legit] attire ; but he confide red the m , de purfued by his Honourable Friend (Nlr.Bankes) as altogether unobjeftionable. As it had alto been Hated that there might he a public laving by the fuppreffion of thole places when they. (Mould become vacant, it appeared to hien but reafonahle, that f a import ant a queltion (broad not be prejudged, nor the execution of it put off to a dittant day. The Honourable Gentleman who fpoke tall (Mr. Ward) had made limo litir ns which were certainly ingeni. nos, and firialy parliamentary. When the Hon. Gentleman, however, in his luppofed cafes confidered the conduCt of Noble Perfons in the other Houfe as ! grofsly indecent, he could only fay, that there were other perfons betides the Honourable Gentleman to decide whether it was indecent or not. He could not fee how the interelt of the Noble Perfon who moved the reicelicn (Lord Arden) could he at all prejudi ced by this Bill, lor tune willows of the Bill never talked of taking assay from any perfon what he al ready had in polrefiton. He thetefore could not fee any violation of decency in the Noble Perron alluded to (Lord Arden) giving his opinion freely upon that lubjea, as well at upon any other. That Noble Per im certainly had fome private converfation with him upon the fuhjeCt. Each of them entertained differ-, ent opinions, and were not c .nvinced by the argn ' ments of the other, but he was extremely furprized incited to find that Noble Perfon Hand fo forward in the (v1)7.110,41 to the Bill. He was extremely forry that it fhoold be conlidered that tl is (Trillion was at all contemplated by him, or that he lhouLt be fup poled to have taken any indite& means to influence it. Before the relent motion was brought, he had ? oven his Honourable Friend (Mr. Banker) his altar ance, that even if he fhould not bring forward any motion, the praflice of granting place. in reverfion thould be dircontitmed uotit the fithjertt lb ruld come again fairly before the conlideration of Parliament. It the motion, however, appeared to him at ail to in erfe:e with the jolt refocitt due to the other b:anch of flat Legillattre, he firould have refitted it ; but as it appeared to lihn to have no loch character, he gave it his forcer: fuppot ts Mr. BOUNltlitt 'expreled mach fat'aiaion at . the fuppne t the Right Hon. Gentlemat , fectued to be inclined to give to the principle of the Bill. Lord EL PETTY alio teflifiedlatisfaetttn at hear ing that Government dii not mean to opoofe the meafine which had nnanimoutly been votch.l ny .that tiuufe ; but as the Right Hon. Gentleman had fla red that the motives of•hi; not oppt flog nt•iginated in a feeling of indifference about the fubjea, he thought it was necefftry for hien to make a few obfervatio'ns. He gave the motion his fuppott, not merely became he did not fee any particular obje6tions to it, hilt be cattle he felt a deep fenfe of its in l Frta'ce• It in v •lved twrigreat and importantprir ciples. The first was to prevent places fr.:m being imprapetly flied ; and the fecnnd was to fupprefs thole that were alto gether 'lleitis. and merely a burden upon the c tun try. As to the firft principle, he mutt ob!erve, that 'one of the greatest checks to filling of places badly was public notoriety. If offices were to be filled only when they became vacant, the public opinion would be formed as to the manner of their being filled up, and the intenti n of the Government that recommen ded the perfons to he appointed ; but when offices were given in reverlion, they were not only given ufually from merit or from charafter, but merely from th. filieita:ion of fome of thofe perfons who furronnded every Government. In confequence of the reverfions already granted, the bufinefs of re trenchment was neceffarily put off to a more cii.lant day. This was peculiarly experienced in Ireland, where the Duke of B.rdford found many lucrative finecures fo given out in reverfion, that it was im poflible for him to do the good he withed. The (late ment which the Right Hon. Gentleman called inge nious and parliamentary, appeared to him to be all) ... molt jut} and impreffive. The Right Hon. Gentle. man contended, that a man in poffeffion of an enor mous finecure place, or who had already great re verfions, might be frippored to fpeak in a manner perfeEtly difinterefted. This was, however, affuming what the Honfe had fofficient experience to deny, that the pollen - ton of one or two reverfrms made men gels anxious to grafp at a third—[Loud cries of Hear, bear! from the Oppfition benrber]. He hoped the Houk w mid never abandon this meafitre. He trutted it world r again to the Haat of Lords in the next Seffion, and that it would experience a better fate than it had in the prefent Seffion. Sir JOHN SEBRIGHI' Chord) , declared his full approba , ion of the principles of that Bill, which had been reje6Ted in the other Houle. Mr. WHITBREAD could not avoid expreflifig his fetlings, which he found to be fomewhat different from thufe of his Hon. Friend's. When the Right Hog. Geritleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) fuffered the Bill to pafs that Houle without the fliyhtelt oppofition, he did confider that his filence, and the filer.ce of his Friends, was an acqiiiefcence and a pledge on the part of the Government to fupprm t the Bill. He alto confidered, that the Gove rnment was pledged in a manner [fill more explicit, by the fpeech which Miniflers put into the month of the King at the opening of the prefent Parliament. That fpeech praifed the labours of the Committee of Finance, and yet it was known at the time that this was the only meafure which the Committee of Finance had then propoled. If then, the Right Honourable Gentle man fhould nosy tell the •Houfe that Minifters confi dered this as a mere milk and water meafure, that would neither do good nor harm, why did they be. fotie think it neceffary to make it a part of the King's Speech ? It did appear as if, !ince that time, I.•me fecret influence had been ufed to alter their opinions. It appeared as if come notice had been given to them, that the mealtime would be difagreeable to fomebody or fomewhere. It was a little extraordinary, that the Lord Chancellor, who fpoke that fpeech, as coming from his M:jefly, fhould have been one of thole who moil warmly oppofed a meafure recom• mended in the very Speech which he had delivered at the opening of the Sefli an. It was laid by f one, that this Bill rellrained the prerogative. If that were tine, it would be no objeaion in his mind, for he would rather that the prerogative was put under pro. per reflraints, than that it fhould be exercifed im properly, and to tle detriment of the na7irin. He could nit confider the rejeCtion of this Bill in the light of an ordinary rejection of a Bill. The prefent Bill related to the retrenchmeots of public expendi tore, to the public purfe of which the Houfe of Com mons was peculiarly the guardian; and to that allevi atir n of the burdens of the people, which might re concile them better to the new burdens that might be laid upon them. He thought it therefore incumbent noon the Houle of Commons to thew to the other Houle, that they would perfevere until the objeCt was obtained. No Sefli in ought ever to pals over without this Bill being again fent to the Lords. lie agreed moll cordially in the mction which had been made. The queftion was then put from the Chair, and the Addrefs was voted nem. con. It was ordered to be prefented by loch of the Members as are of his Nl.4jelty's Privy Council. Mr. FOSTER moved, that the further confideration of the de• hate on the Pungarvon Kecognizances he returned which was or d:Ted ; and a very long deiultory couverfation enfucd, on the quellion whether any further time Ihould he allowed, in which Mr. Potter, and the Chaucellor of the Exchequer fpuke ia favour ol'the Petitioner btirg allowed till Saturday fe'onight ; Mr. l'on• fonhy, Mr. Whitbread, Mr. P. Moore, Mr. Windham, and Lord Folk antic againft it. A division took place, and the Gallery was cleared —Ayes 65... N.JCS 45. —Majority 21. RELATIONS WITH FOREIGN POWERS. On being re admitted into the Gallery we found Mr. WHITBREAD on his legs, addrelling fome qiielions to his Majeily's Milliners. On a motion being made, that the Houfe do, on its riling, adjourn to Thurfday, he Paid, that his opinion, do period of time was ever more inaufpicioui than the prefent for the prorogation of Parliament, when fo many emergencies might arife which were likely to require the advice and aHiHance of Parliament. He alluded to our liivation with regard to 'Turkey, and begged to know from Minillers whether an Ambalfador had been fent there,.and how our relations wish that power now Hood, fo far as could be communicated with propriety? With regard to Rullia, it was very well ani generally known, that the had entered into a treaty of peace with France, in which no other mention was made of this country, than all accep• rance of the mediation of Rutlia. He hoped that the Right Honourable Gentlerhan oppolite would have no oblation to fay, whether any communicaiion had been made to this country by It might be imprudent to afh the era& manner Of the comintini cati n , but he ~ .ifhed to know wheth& any hut been made ; and in (peaking on this fubje fie n.l not help faring. , hat he would again advife his Ma. Minitf ers (and in this he believed lir: had almoft all hearts with him, though he'might not have their vices), he would, therefore, with all his heart and mind, and from his foul, letioufti and y, ad vife his /tlajcfly's Minitlets to take advantage of ever y . oppottunity that might offer to negotiate a Peace. In his opi...ion, the preent period was a molt favourable morne't, and if dexteroully managed, might faV the further effull.)n of blood, and free us from the ce,ll:rtities of war; but, if negleaesi, would greatly add In their aggravation. He wonted, there fore, to know whether there was any official commit. nication Ircnt i,rrCi r? nutria had been under the bard neceflity t.f co •cluding a treaty of peace with France, in which the bad been compelled to Phut all her p •rts againfl nor c tmmerce. There were silo our two Military and Naval Expeditions, %%Heft, from what he had heard, if the repnr's were atte, were likely to htiag r n us another enemy, and from which we might daily evre,ft to receive fume intelligence. Lookiog alt . () to Anmica, and viewinrr the lituatiph in which weal rod with regard to that counts y, cou- C/A with the 1 tee trnfortunate troll - affirm relpeEting the Chefapeak, tbcre fcemed to he nothing but both lity around us. Added to all there, the deplorable fitifttinn cf our Welt India met chants requited im mediate itivelligation and relief., The Emperor of France was rettuned to his capital, and reidy to turn the ride of VNir ntore directly again!! u,. Se-ring things wearing this !;homy alpe&, and the Right lion. Gentleman t.iith a vote of credit, winch was for f r large and unprecedented a fam, that it feemed to indicate au intention of making as long a reed's, and doing without the aflillanceof Parliament as long as poffible. Ta ki-g all cit cumtlances into cortfidera thin, and thinking that the advice of Parliament might very loon indeed he of the moil efreirial fer vice, he could not bat exprel's a fincere hope that Miniaets would not counfel his Majelly to prorogue it on Friday next. Mr. Secretary C.'.NNING laid, he role toonlwer fach of the goetli ns of the Finn. Gentleman, as it was in his power, and which fell within the particu lar line of his dtoy t,, do. That which feemed fira in point of importance was, the queftion as to the Ruffian treaty. The Right Hon. Gentleman had alked whether any direCt communication had been made from Rollie on that fubjea. His anfwer was, a dire& commuoication had been received, hut not accompanied wi'h any part of the treaty, nor even with the claufe which relates to this country ; that and every other part of the treaty being known only to his Majetty's Minitters, in the fame way as to every Member of the Houle, through the French papers. The communication. had been received on the sit of this m'aith ; and to a communication of Inch a nature, was impollible that any other than a conditional anfwer could be returned. What that condition was, it mull be obvious to every one—it would not be proper to mention it there. The next queflion was, as to our relations with America, and, firQ, he mud premife, that whatever might at prefent be the lituati ,n of this country with America, it in no degree arofe from the conduit of his Majefty's prefent Milliners. Finding when they came into office, a treaty had been negotiated by the late Minillers, and Gent to America for ratification, it became the determination of the prefent Miniders not to eta roly thing which might in any degree tend to dint' b or interfere with that treaty.--- lnftruelions were fent to our Minitter there to that effet9, and others of a limilar nature to our Na val Commander ma that dation. If the treaty was ratified, they had determined to put it in force, and aft upon it the fame way as if it had been a treaty tregociated by themfelves. If it was rejeCled, it was their intention fo to aft towards America as to evince, on their part, the molt unequivocal defire and wills to maintain with that country the relations of peace and amity. Up to :he prefent moment our Government had not received any information or communication from thence till Saturday, and that was only a copy of the Proclamation cut out of an American newfpaper, and tranfrnitted by our Mini tier there. He had however this day applied to the American Mini.',er to know if he had any official communication to make, who had returned for an fwer that he had received no official initruCtions as yet. With tefpe.t to Turkey, he could in few words anfwer as nearly as poflible what was fail on the fubjed of Turkey in his Majefly's Speech, viz.— " That his Majetly had adopted loch meafures as might belt enable him, in concert with the Emperor of Itliffia, to take advantage of any favourable op. portunity for bringing the holtilities in which they were engaged with the Sublime Porte, to a conch. lion confident with his Majetty's honour, and the interelts of his Ally." With refpe& to our Expedi tions, it could not be expeeted he &mild fay any thing on that filhjea ; and as to the advice of the Honourable Gentleman, that he and his colleagues fhould not counfel his Majelly to prorogue the Par. liament at the prefent junaure, it was a part of his Majelly's prerogative to prorogue the Parliament when he pleated, and he ftw no reafon at prefent to counfel his Majelly to withhold the ufe of it. Mr. WHI TBREAD laid, he did not mean to doubt the Prerogative, but he thought this was an emergency of fo peculiar and awful a kind, that the ufe of it might very well be difpenfed with. The quelliln that the Houk do, an its riling, ad. journ to Thur(da), was then put, and agreed to. The Elellion Writs' Regulation Bill was poliponed till next Sellion. The SPEA KER acquainted the Houle, that John Baggwell, El+ who had petitioned againlk the Elec tion and Return for the County of "1 ipperary, and John Fred. Falkener, Efq. who had petitioned againit the Rcturn for the County of Dublin, had feverally neglee.ted to enter into recognizanccs, and that the orders for the ballots had therefore in both cafes bees ditcharged. The BECRETARY at WAR moved for a Return of the number of Men railed for the Regular Army, in July, iSo7, or as far as it can be made up, diftin guilhing boys from men —Ordered. During the exclufion of Strangers, we underßood that Mr. SHERIDAN pnflponed his motion on the Affairs of Ireland to Thurfday next, when he laid. be (horrid certainly bring it furw4rd.--Ad . iourned to • Thurfday.