Star. — London, England, 1816-04-03 00:00:00

1 : • • One great and important cause of airagreemAt misted in the system and establishment of 'fithes.— The Noble Marquis next called the attention of the House to the subject of Tithes in Ireland, the • efftct of which hai been to operate as an oppression' on the poor cultivators end growers of .pcuatoes auk to l o ti. o t hilo: the Bich, who employed their land in the etraxing of cattle, were wholly exempt. The consequence of this was, that as all the lower e- - L - 1011.1effWert Catholics or Dissenters, abbot four. fifths oPthe population were obliged to pay towards the sepport of a Church to which they did hot bAong. The tax of tithes was therefore unemial and op . . peessrve. It was felt as a;r injustice by the great body of the people ; and in common policy there should be some other mode of-levying taxes to support the Clerey. This, as well as many ot6r circumstances, ;.:oatle inquiry necessary. His object was, to move •fir a Cfinunittee to inquire into the state of Ireland. He thought a great difficulty would be removed, if . Commissioners should be appointed with power to `settle tho revenue of the Church according to the rents of land I then at least all the oppressions of tithe proctors and tithefarmers, and all the evils arising from vexatious litigations, would be avoided. It was not the actual sum received by the Clergy. • .- men that was a burclin on the poorpeople, but the exactions of the people he just described. There existed another great source of grievance in Ireland, which was, the jurisdiction and powers vested in the Grind Juries, which instead of 'being converted to the public good, were made use of as the means of promoting jobs. The power the Grand Juries had of raising money to repair roads, was general,* is 'creased for the purpose of enabling, landlords to receive the tenants' tenth for by making a road or repairing one, they gave a: job to the tenant, and the money raised for the repair of the roads went into the landlord's pocket. A. great grievance also exist ed in regard to the nomination of Sheriffs, who were ' I solely appointed by the Lord Lieutenant, or some • person under Government. The, appointment of Magistrates was the next source of grievance. All these were appointed by the Crown, and many were unfit for their office. There was another point, which though last, was not the least, and which, in deed, constituted the blackest pan of the picture.— He alluded to the financial state of Deland, which was.such as to place the country in a situation of national b.rukruptcy. The revenues of the century at this moment were not sufficient for the payment of the public creditor. Here the Noble Marquis re capitulated the debts and revenues of Ireland for several years, from which he shewed, that for four or' five years past the debt was continually incressing • in a proportion much greater then the revenues.— The deficiency of-revenue to pay the charges during the year 1815, amounted to £453,00Q; and during the year 1816 up to the present time, the deficiency was L9B6,ooo—very near a million. Such was the financial situation of Ireland; and it vets impossible for any man to look at it without the most serious fears, and without feeling the absolute necessity of entering into an inquiry. If such was not done, England might retain possession of the Irish soil by , tie power of erms, but they would lose all the power and all the advantages resulting from the% affections of the Irish people ; and the futon rule of our Go. Moment in Ireland would be nothing more than a perpetual effort to prevent rebellion in that ftmetry., Such would be theconsequence .if every possible attention vs:as not now shewn to its inteeests. But still he would writ to and hope for a more pleasing prospect. • Let an inquiry take place, let measures be adopted for ameliorating Ireland in the spirit of friendly conciliation, and then the people of that country would reward their Legislators with grati tude. If it should be the pleasure of their Lordships to turn their attention to the grievances of Ireland, there was no consideration that could give him greater happiness than the result of that night's debate. The Noble Marquis concluded by moving that a Committee be appointed to consider of the state of Ireland. The Archbishop of CASHELL replied to some of the remarks made by the Marquis of Buckingham , on the subject of Tithes in Ireland, and said, that there was no case for the interference of that House in regard to the Tithes of helium,. The Noble Marquis was incorrect in one of his statements; for in the greater part of Ireland there was no tithe paid for potatoes. It would appear from what the Noble Marquis said, as it the Clergyman, when he was un able to get his tithe from the rich landholder, came ' and took it all from the poor cottager. But this was not the fut. With respect to the proposed plan of taking the.tiew from land, he never met any man who could make up his mind as to the practicability of such an arrangement. - • The Marquis of BUCKINGHAM assured the Right,Rei. Prelate, that he never meant to throw oil any charge against the Clergy respecting tithes. What lie ondenpked was, the system of Government on that particular subject, by which the rich man WAS frequently exempt front payment, while the great pressure fell upon the poor cultivators. The Earl of LIVERPOOL felt it but justice to -remark, that the Noble Marquis had not made any • attack upon the Established Church of Ireland. He himself felt all the importance of this queition in its fullest extent ; and the Noble Marquis certainly did introduce it with much temper and moderation ; so muc:s so, that his speech was more calculated than any other that be had heard to give effect to any .plan which might be adopted for the amelioration of Ireland 'Differing as he did with the Noble Marquis on many of - his points, he was not insensible to the tateftsting topics to which he alluded. There was; - however, a thorough conviction in his mind, that the to.ject of the. Noble Marquis could not be gained by the plan he proposed; he objected to the motion, be. cause, it either meant, that the House should go into a Committee of the whole House, or appoint aoelect Contusittee to inquire into the state of Ireland. He did not conceive that either of these measures would • . be desirable. If a general question was referred to air whole House, there could be no practical good resulting from it, on account of the differentas of opinions that must preVail; end, as to a Select Conn. ' mime, he asked, if the House would delegate such a power to any Committee! If; however, any one par. ticular case could be made out and referred to m. quiry, he should have no objection to such an in quiry.. He was ready, in a certain extent, to agree with sh.lioble Marquis that a system. of Govern. ment radically vicious and bad exitted . hi Ireland. But although this might have been the original po licy in regard to Ireland, he contended that, during the present reign, every year had been a year of con- , cessioa to Ireland on the part of the English Govern. ' ment. Therefore, although the system of Ireland was originally bad, that was not the system of late years. He could lay his hand on his heart and say, that' the anxiety of England of late yea,' was, to stew favour end indulgence to Ireland on every oc casion, and that was the principle the Government .chiefly ate on last year, when the Coen Laws were tinder the iscussion of Parliament. He maintained, o f that during-111e last .50 years Ireland had increased in prosperky beyond what any other country had %lone in the same time. Her agriculture bad doubled in extent, and her commerce had doubled since the Ilision. He admitted there were some serious evils in that country which ought to be femoved ; theevils : which had existed were not to be traced to any ques tion of religious dissinctiou, but to the lawless dupe. sitions of the lower orders ot people. Tnese were equally hostile to Catholics as well as Protestants. And on the whole, he felt confident, that it was only from education and the introduction of good morals into Ireland, that she could derive real advantages, 'and undergo a change of . manners. At the begin ning of the last century, the situation of Scotland was, worse than that of Iseland, and the manners of her people had since been all corrected by a good system of education.—( Rear, hear.)—Here tht Niable Earl read an extract from Fletcher, e . Sahotaie,.work, in 1698. skewing the disorganised state of Scptland at that period--that 200,000 beggars were *tattered over the face of the country k ame half of whom were vagrants, prone to every vice, and in open violence with the laws of Goa and map. 'lle Noble Earl observed, that this state of things was ameliorated by a properly 4iffused system of education, which was attended with the most satisfactory result. As to the Catholic Quession as one of the grievances con. plained of, be was free to admit, that every privilege should be conceded consistently with the security of the Church Establishment. But tl3ere the question commenced. He was thoroughly convinced that this was a subject totally . unconnected with the evils of the country, and that whatever advantage might at tend its success, none of them could edict the great i bulk of the people—the same clamour would still prevail His first view pf that question *as, with a view to see what guards could be effected fur the National Establishineat. Oa a more mature consi deration, lie found that nothing could be done, in this respect, satisfactory to all; and from thence he con cluded, that it the principle of Concession were on this point yielded, the simpler and plainer the terms were the better, respecting the ulterior arrangement of the subject. On the question of tithes, %loch stood in Ireland on a different footing from what they were in England, he would be willing to listen to any fair commutation. The Noble Earl also entered on the subject of the Magisterial and Financial System of Ireland : the former, be admitted, was open to im provement, and the latter would, as soon as possible, be consolidated into the general turd of the Empire. The Earl of ROSSLYN was confident that a good systcns of laws was absolutely necessary in Ire land. The Nolsle.Earl, who gave a description of the corrupt and ertualute state of Scotland in the be ginning only last , century should recollect the ~hist orical come of these evias.they were produced by a tyrannical Government that wan ted to Impose a detested religion on them. Then, in looking at the return of civil nation, it was proper to see the means that had been applied for that Purpose. The people were placed under the care and instruction at their own pastors, in consequence of which their manners were changed ; and be was confident if a similar plan were adopted in Ireland by the removal of reli gious disabilities, the vicious habits of tie people would soon be changed. He was fully convinced, that the present system of collecting tithes in Ireland ought to be, done away ; and he believed the revenue of the clergy would be much better raised tram land. He bad been in Ireland, and knew that the tithes had been in most parts taken on potatoes, and, alto. isether, they were collected in the most oppressive manna. The Noble Lord had said nothing on the subject of the appointment of Sheriffs in Ireland ; but that was a source of great grievance, for it was how considered a matter of great impOrtauce as well as favour in Ireland to have the power of nominating perpetual Sheriffs. This power often rested with Noblemen a the Sheriff could appoint the Grand 'Juries, and that give rise to a system of partiality, of jobbing, and of corruption. With respect to the fi- - trances of Ireland, he thought they were a very pro. per ground for inquiry ; ~nd he was the more con vinced of this, since he heard the Noble Lord talk of a plan for consolidating the revenues of England and Ireland, because the means of Ireland'ivere • wholly inadequate to meet any such project. As to the Ca. tholics of Ireland, he would grant no concession with 1 a view of complying with clamorous persons, burbe cause he was confident a fair rational emancipation would serve more than any other measnre to put down all agitators and disorderly persons. He had been for a considerable time in Ireland, and he kneW the character of the people sufficiently to say, that not only the higher but the lower orders of the people were highly sensible of any favour conferred on them, and that they would gratefully receive ' any boon offered by Parliament. • Earl STANHOPE expressed his high approbation of one expression which was used by the Minister; that Catholic Emancipation was a simple question's and he thought the concessions ought not to be gun. tod with any conditions. The Veto, be contended, was an unprincipled proposition ; for, to grant eman cipation with a Veto, would be an insult. He was always folly convinced of the utility desiccation ;. ' but the want of edbcation in Ireland was a slight evil compared to the cruel power exercised by the inter. mediate landlords, *bo all had the power of clouting on- the land far their rent, and driving away the cattle of a poor tenant with whom they never made any ebntract. Lord ABERDEEN could not see any necessity for an inquiry. He admitted the existence of almost 'all the evils that prevailed in Ireland ; and there was a very material one which had not been noticed, but 19, which sage remedy ought tb be devised;.--he meant the imperfect state of the distillery laws, in consequence of which suniggling was now carried on to the most enormous extent. The Catholic question was one which tcquired an iniMpluile.Olusigtioet""' . removal of e fi f e di sa sa w hi i i n tie ti e ßi . jur h y u . t l:k a e t ly th t e o m ar gn is: f t r i e m m e, tl h ue e think it would ' produce the effezt so much dwelt upon by Noble Lords. The Earl of DARNLEY concurred in opinion with the Noble Lord who had last spoken, as io the' vices which were fostered by the distillery laws in Ireland. Although many persons might be rather I too sanguine in their expectations of whez might be the result of the deliberations of Parliament, yet still the distress of the country was of such a 'nature as to induce their Lordships to entertain the proposition.— He warconvinced that nothing would tend so much to restore tranquillity to Ireland, as setting to rest thvquestion of Catholic Emancipation. That boon, so much desired by the Catholics of Ireland, and so necessaty for the welfare of the empire at large, war founded on the immutable principles of justice,. and mtit l s ghe ev E en a t r u l aly e l tn b be 1 granted . s sim G TON observed, that the Catholic question was not applicable to Ireland alone, but when introduced into the House must be treated as embracing also the Roman Catholics • of England. The distresses of Ireland could not, by any possibi lity, be traced to that question. He complimented the Clergy of 'lreland, particularly the Bench of Bishops; and declared that • the tithes were levied in that country in a manner as little distressing as pos sible. He did not think that a commutation of tithes would be attended with any advantage.' He stated, that in /rebind much disadvantage arose from there being severs! trading Magistrates, who held :hefts for justice, and sold it at sixpence or a shilling a-head.— He thought the present distillery laws should be re pealed, the whole system was oppressefre, and could never be effective, as the last character as Irishman would adopt was that of as informer. In conse quence, ninety-nine innocent persons -paid for one guilty. But to think of preventing the Irish from drinking whiskey, was altogether out of the question. He agreed with the Noble Marquis, that the system, of Grand Jury presentments was extremely disgrace. ful, and one merely of jobbing. on the principle of— 's give me one toad and I'll give you another." He thought the Hearth Money Tax requited revision, and , . thaethe rich should pay instead of the poor. • Lord REDESDALE, looking to the origin of the connection of Ireland with this country, conceived it should be Welted upon as a conquered country. He however used this expression in no other sense than he would use it when speaking of the Norman con quest of England. He-lamented, however, that si milar measures had not been adopted with respect to both countries;. ler while England was conciliated 'by her conquerors, Ireland still continued to be 'go verned by the same mean as the acquisition had been *made; the conaequence was that Ireland had ever been disobedient to the law. This opinion had been asser ted in the days of James, by Sir Juhn Davis, the At torney General. The defect had arisen from the im perfect mode of educcien which uniformly prevailed in that country, from the highest to the lowest, and so little obedience did the peasantever enact from his sou, until he had arrived at an advanced age, that it was customary tor the tether to knock dawn his son to compel him to wor k—(u laugh.) He entered into a representation of the state et Ireland in the earliest times, when the country was divided into different septs, and observed, that the expulsion of all the old Irish families from their hereditary possessions had embittered the minds of the people, who often fan cied that they were working on the lands that should belong to them. He related an anecdote trs prove the extreme pride felt by the Irish with respect to their ancient families. When the Earl if Shelburne was spoken of at the table of an 'lrish gentlenian, some persons present spoke of the Noble Earl with the greatest contempt, saying, " This fellow is rot fit to sit at table *thus.' Being told that the' Earl was of the family of Pima:am-Ice .. 16 Fitztuaturice !" said they ; " who . are the Fitemaurices I Fellows that came in with Stlonghow !"—(a &ugh.) He thought the only means of overcoming those preju dices was by an improved system. of education, and thought a Committeualtogether unnecessary:. The people of Ireland should be taught to look to the Magistracy of the country, and Snot to the Military, for protection. The-people had no desire to obey the laws; and it was useless, without the conciir rence of the whole nation, to hope that the Govern meat can effect a perfect obedience. Tn some cases, their prejudices, arising even from a good cause, ope rate to prevent it. The Earl of CARNA RVON. observed, that were it not for a few phrases that fell from the Noble Lords who bad spoken on the opposite side, horn which he collected their intention of objecting to the motion, he would have conceived their speeches ai affording the strongest arguments in favour of it : one Noble Lord said that the House should*not entertain an inquiry, because they knew not the result; but . had the result been known, would not that same No ble Lord have esteemed it foolish to undertake an in quiry as unnecessary ? Another observed, that they should not proceed in a labour of which they could not know the termination ; so that, as the House did not know the ceaclusion, they should not have a commencement. He commented fariher on the arguments of the Noble Lurds..and thought they , superadded reasons that almost proved his Noble ' Friend's case a weak one, when compared with theirs. He therefore prayed the House to enter with vigour to au enquiry, esteeming all individual propo. sitions• as nugatory. The Earl of ST. GERMAINS thought that no case bad been made out to justify the appointment a i Committee. Lord HOLLAND despaired of entertaining their Lordships by . a history of Henry the Second, or by any recent anecdotes of the state of Ireland. No subject demanded so strongly the attention of Parlia 4ent as. did the state of Ireland ; and if be felt that I opinion before entering the House, he must be more firmly impressed with it after hearing the arguments of the Noble and Learned Lords opposite. They all agreed that the state of Ireland was one of catmint distreu, but differing in the causes and the remedies of that situation, they still refused to enter into an in. lquiry, *here alone they-might be discovered. They bad united Wand to this country by force, and pro mised to inqdre into the grievances of that unhappy nation ; kat now, after a lapse of sixteen years, they refused so consider the nature of her government and the mtancot redress. The Learned Lord bad as. sertqcl education to In the only remedy of the dis tromes,iik Ireland ; but it would- seem-from what be. had also stated, that historical knotslacte groat sourer of their irritation—the peopl eo f must first be taught to forget the Mawr, country and the invasion of Strongly.w (fi e ,, An inquiry would at. 1.-ast shew the inteinior liament to examine and to redress. • The Nf commented with great force and httm..er feet of the system of tithes, which Lad be..n ted as forming a close reh.tion between and the People. 66 Truly," s rid the Nu? , s taking away the tenth part of a mans ground must conciliate him very mach, e t , very closely the peasant and the parson."... (4,,,, ‘ , 4 : 1 As an act of justice, wisdom, and policy, a e .4.4: all, as an act of grace to the people of he prayed the House not to reject the propositiun n i Noble Friend. Lord GRENVILLE enforced the absolute ape. s ., city of an inquiry into the state of Irela n d • tie House was placed in a situation of extreme i n , p , A , rt. ance; they were not to legislate for Enifnmilrna.iy boot for the whole empire, of which Ireland tnrnied: considerable portion; and certainly no part (If t h e empire had so positive a right to demand an : aqu i rs , into the grievances that affect her, as every f„ „t cf the soil of that country. Why did Patliarn eit 4 03 to govern Ireland, if it was not to sec.ne i,;.; piness and • unless they discharged that t r. usurped a power to which they couli si.e a • A cause of inquiry had been fully made been shewn that Ireland was in a t , PIT tLi;. l the presence of an army Bauble tf.e ~t a „ y formerly employed there—that justice i;al tin; t,.„ 1 executed there, and chit its very so.:rre had t en polluted in the mode of eiceting S: iff A!lk. 13 the Magistracy—that the system of Tithes Kes t ' not upon the landowner of occupier, but es, the 1., bourer, and was the operative cause of wiry rot the evils ; and yet, with these assertions, so mad- and so ,supported, it was still denied that an inquiry she u 'la be instituted. The Noble Lord was not satviae enough to Imp that an allowance of the ed.:Lilt Claims would of itself allay at present the agiL it i ons of Ireland, but there was a time when much gond would have resulted from such measure. 'These times were gone, and vain was the hope o f dia. :7, to tecal the consequences of the refusal ; btu the House might still arrest the progress of evil, and pre. vent what must be the result of the present system ni misgovernment—..the total separation of the two countries, which GOD and Nature had iaseparabry united. No man could seriously think that Ireland ought to he left in its present state. No, the prin. ciple of shutting out the view of that country cotal . not longer be pursued. The next question as, it what course the remedy should be applied? !it thought iL better to consider the whole ite view, for every part was associated ui:h aonC;er.— Specific propositions were wholly unavailing; the entire system was wrong, where every Iri.l-.; seemed equally affected, where should the remedies be first applied ? The Noble Lord proceNle.l vrirti gteat clog rence to en! orce positing, eineladeil by Ovine, his hearty concurrence to t.'le of his Noble Lord SIDMOU 1 H objected to the motion, as tendini; agg:ivate the grievances cAnpiatte:f Those grievanc,l arose principally from want dustry and scant of kqmvlidge, to %rbich mt:ethtt had been already applied, that might be errrred operate in time. The agricultur::l &saws r Cher came. He then took a review of t).lc sti:e the Catholic Question, an,l Ti:he 3y f 7 9 ,1, v.: i he inferred, that nothing sati,lactcry coul,: be :1 . ..LC •at present. Lord HOLLAND explainzd. Atter a short reply from the Marquis of BUN. INGIIAM the House divided, when there aucatc,f, For the titution---Preient 2tii Pruaies 41 Against it Precut 6H ,„, I';(lxics t;9l apingt the moaun -- 70. Adjourned at f.L4ll.past Oar. 1101 3E Of COMMONS. A Petition was brou,dit up from the inntilsolskri andhenete of Kern, calling Pee attention tit the House to tat 'heiress, and praying particinarly against the 'lithing System Ordered to be reierred to the Agrfetiltitrid Coninettee. Mr. H. ADDINGTON brought up Pates re :Jive to the ries of the Secretary of Statie's Ottice.—Laid on tee l'ehis. Sir K. PEEL gave notice of a motiou tor tile epiestealoit of a Select Committee to inquire into the state of the yen. g pett..ks employed in the Cotton ft lastufactories. I.urd I.A.iCELLES brought up a Petition from tesee, field, and Doncaster, agsinst the impost:ion of a Duty . his karc• seed--Laid on the table. Mr. GI ('PS asked leave to bring in a Bill to enable traces to a;.poiet I)istrict Surveyors of Highways. Ale Cl. R%l N had hoped that 'lichen account wen!.l be lilJ.it euc as rotrid justify the appointment, for he coesidered that eel Surveyors would have coo great a power in general. Mr. 5. I.h.FEVRE did not consider the Sin vefors neeepary, and thought that it would be cresting a great Untirceseary espeer. Mr. GII'L'S thought that it would be little or Ito sildeieui eapeese, as that was prtileipally occasioned by the bad sea esf the Rued+. There was little or no additunia! power tic., the measere. After some farther observations front Mr. SWEI cud h"te (Letts, leave was given, and the Bill brought up mid reel a first time. The ',ALT. AKER recommended that the 1311 might be fell a second time shortly, sent round the COLIIIIIy, and coneuittedotel the blanks fitted tip after the recess. Mr. 011' L'S agreed w the proposal; and the BM was to be read a second time to murnw. Mr. 011APLINmuved for leave to bring in a Mil to red anAct of las: Session for the assessment of County it.:ree—ie'' was given, the Bill brought tee, read a first tune, al.sl urderel be reale second time tit-morrow. eteccral K. PERCH tfoiON brought up a Pe:iinn teem Fartrier, Soeigty of Kinross., the attention ut tat. Howie the Agrfatlttisal 1/ieticse—Laid on the Table. Mr. Al moved for a Return ut Wine, Stall, ::: 11 Beer i.icen. es, ions the rth of July list to the present lave' Ordered. Sir J. SHAW. brought up a Petition from the Vier! of Crt` plegatc, against extravagance, and in favour of econealf :nd trenchtneot in every tiepartment of the State.. The Putitesen did rot / Le said, wish. for the abolition of useful offices, bu ugh as were use:esti. sits enialements.—Laid on the •fab:e. Mr. \V. SM; brveght up a Petition from Inverness ~g.nest particular du •s pressed oppressively ou , Ls& the . 1 otsle. Mr. ROSE bad Lederstood that the House had a desire to fee the revellers te the Navy Estimates, which came under the b.:21 of the Contieg‘.ecies, which he had directed to be made out. be. ktlght Hon. Member then moved, that the account s be IA before the House.—Ordered. On the mottos to read the Nl'e!ghts and Measures Eiu a third time, Mr. V. FITZGEAALD gave notice, that he should sub mit a propotition to extend the Bail to Ireland.—The lilt lea reads third time and passed, alteetwo clauses had been added .._ Sir C. POLE made some observstions on the propriety u!r. °dash); Clerks who had been employed Lis particular °flees in preparing public.accounts. ' he bad fdi ul Mr. FLOSE said, that when he came Into °Ewe, the amains of the Victualling Once teu years in Nees' , ` ° , dig extra dart. had begi employed. '1 hey 114 GO* 1ee 4241 " .nri : 77 Irti ft4 V of t h iv r , st .. ) p m. I ;ab'•. 3 on 'hr f f. rep. eb ,„ . he Cnic c 4 3 ,bte Lo r e,, a P ll. p o t ato ,. and p