Star. — London, England, 1816-05-16 00:00:00

been paid to this an amount that Parliament, as it millions. But the sum, or a sum still larger, .. droit might he dealt with as personal income, aid was to be left entirely to the disposal of the Sovereign.— . . Should ,that be the case, then at the. end of a pro. vatted war, the Sovereign would have a source of revenue independent of Parliament, and contrary to all former usage. None could deny that such a ques tion, was important, and affecting the. vital interests of the Constitution, as such a doctrine tended to con tract the authority of Parliament, and to remove the bolwarks of the Constitution. The grounds of such a claim ought to be called for, and whatever might _ be the result,. it was the duty of a Member of Par horneot in bring the question before the House. In the observations he meant to offer, he should try to be short ; nor should he load the question with legal quotations, unfit for such an assembly as that House, but should be guided by the great rules of the Con- Laotian and of justice. He hoped he should not be told that it no statute was violated, that the doctri se was well founded. As there were many offences that were no breach of a statute, so there were many offences against the Constitution that was no breach of any positive law. He should be perfectly dispas sionate, sand should' impute no deliberate breaeh of the Constitution, but only a proceeding tint ought to be guarded against in future. The King tf France had meted to pay a certain sum to' the iussiy o( oe. AuPazioa, and. it had been stated by that vto vota Of Parliament would be called for to protteleil for the charge of these troops. But that was a roust extraordinary proceeding, considering the conical]. tional guards against a stamling military force ; one of which was peculiar to the House of Commons, as • all Money Bills must originate in that House. But As far.as the army in France was concerned, Ministers had proposed to set aside that constitutional principle, and instead, as at the revolution, of substituting right for might, to substitute might for right. That ground, however, had been afterwards abandoned by Minis ters, and a vote had been submitted to the House. The charge of the army in three years would exceed the whole of the sum to be paid by Fiance as an in demnity, and at all events there would not be a ba.. lance of mote than half a million to this country. The treaty professed to indemnify Great Britain, and no explanation was afforded why that indemnity was to be reduced to halt a milliim, though four millions had been promised for pay and indemnity. Of that he complained, as it was a mere contingency, if there would ke any surplus to Great Britain. One million fete hundred thousand pounds was to be paid for the burthen of the war upon Great Britain; and that Cum must have been accepted by the British Govern. trent, either to be paid to the soldiers, or to be ap plied to the public services. But from the circum stance of the capture of Paris being stated as one of the reasons for the payment, it would seem that there ' was an engagement of honour to pay it to the troops. It that as the case, then there was a novelty (1 a very alarming kind—a &nation from foreign Princes to British troops ; and a principle of gratitude of a most dangerous tendency w is established horn a Bri tish army to those foreign Princes. But it might be said, the Crown might dip ea of the money in any other way ; and then it would fall under the general question, and must be defended as a donative to the Army from the British Crown ; which would form a Smut alarming precedent, not that he meant in the smallest degree to detract trom the glorious services of the army, but, only wished the reward to be given by the Crown and by Parliament. The question (or eonside e ration was, if these sums paid by France were at the disposal of the Crown as the droits of the Ad miralty were claimed to be, and to be applied teepri- Tate enjoyment as private property, he by no means wished to curtail the proper splendour of the Crown, or to withhold the mean of munificence and bounty. If the means were inadequate, they should be in creased, but not at the expense of the right of the }louse of Commons, and the liberties of the country, (Hear, hum) The Chancellor of the Exchequer had claimed the whole as droits of the Croon ; and he as a Minister of Finanoe, and as a lawyer of great expe rience, was entitled to much respect. Upon him it was incumbent to state the grounds of his new opi * Ilion which had never been advanced by any profes sional man before, especially as the assertinwhad not been made in the warmth of debate. An act of ownership had taken place on the part of the Crown, and part of the money bad been applied in a manner that however in itself commendable, formed no part of the public service. A letter, dated Dec. 26, 181.5, had been sent from the Board of Treasury to the Com missary in Chief, directing, that the sum of 200,000 francs should be applied out of the money paid by *France, to defier the expense of a monument to the Cardinal of York. Had that sum been paid from a private income it would have been much to be praised, but the public money should riot have been applied to paying such funeral honours. To such o proce dure, as at best ambiguous, and in fact a libel on the revolution, he felt the most strenuous objection. It seemed ostentatiously to imply that he was entitled to Royal honours, because he was descended from a family that had once been Royal, but which bad ceased to be so by an act of justice. He (Sir James Mackintosh) was disposed to treat kim as a Prince from courtesy and compassion, but not as having any claim to the Royal dignity. The money applied to transport the works of art might be for a public oh . ject, but that could not be inithe case just alluded to. 'though the sum was small yet the principle was the same, and if part might be applied, so might the whole. He must protest against such an application till he was eoneinced by argument, or silenced by the decision'ot a majority of that House. He saw no round for such a claim, and the enur lay upon" those who put it forward. The constitutional principle was, that the Crown was dependent upon the House of Commons for the money necessary to supply the various calls of Government, arid that principle was the great security of public freedom. Should such;, an application be admitted, all the censure must be' retracted that had been heaped upon Charles ll.—lt , might be said that Ministers were responsible, bat that responsibility would depend either upon" the power being legal, or the necessity obvious. James 11. s a his own life, lately published, had thrown most light upon the subject of his brother's connexions swab Trams ail caetflttined that the King had glen ' entintirbyt . ibliiitiVatr Gel er,naltillt• wits will' Itafitity the attention of t was eat 'Sea than the sum of six Ic main qdestion was, whether that till larger, as a droit of .the Crown, • • I induced by the Dab* oriPubenodth to alitit vPO O her 413.000 mutually oat of that French . had, was his only security againit the tyranny of Portia merit. This power, claimed by the Crown, would be a temptation to conclude infamous treaties, in conse quence of money to 'be paid by a foreign Power; and the question in future might ha an auction of co. and a sale of territory. Half a million might be demanded for Martinique, and £OOO,OOO ter Guadaloope. Such a power was. snore tha,s a mere liability to abuse ; there could be no use in vesting such a power in the Crown, unless it was already possessed of it, and could only lead to conduct simi lar to that in the time of Charles 11. The indemnity on the part of the French Government was partly pe cuniary and partly territorial, on the policy of which he should give no opinion ; but it was clear that money was the price of territory, and the case bore a strong resemblance, though circuitously, to the sale of Dunkirk, in the time of ,Charles-11. Compensa tion for a national loss, ought not to depend upon the sole will of the Sovereign, and those who bad paid the Income Tax, should have their burthens alleviated by means of the compensation paid by France—(l/ear.) Those who held the affirmative as to the right of the Crown, were bound to prove that right; but the auihnrities to that purpose must be subsequent to the Revolution, as no previous case would properly apply to that before the House. In 170, when the House of Commons was supposed to be unfavourable to the principles of the ttevolution, a fourth of the ---,let had been claimed by the Crown ; 1714, voted dikharge the been, that the trustees. and Bolingbroke and Mr. Manlier!), in /hose was to have been vested fur the use of the Querr4.— The same address also requested that the revenue of ' Minorca, and the rents of certain houses in Gibraltar, should be applied in the same way. An answer was returned on the 24th, and stated that the fourth of the Assiento Contract had been granted to the South Sea Company, her Majtsty conceiving that to encourage trade was the best way to discharge the debts of the country; and that the revenue of Minorca, and the rents of the houses in Gibraltar, should be applied iu the manner she thought more fit, for the public Service: —A division had taken place, and the tellers were. Lord Bolingbroke and Mr. Pultecey, as the Ministry, (die Whigs) objtc;ed to' the money having bees granted without the consent of Parliament. Me l term then employed was, that the Haase mystified in the disposal o the monies; and that as strongly proved the question of tight, as if the House had re: fused to acquiesce. On the 15th of January, 1765, above four years after the passing of the Civil List Act, a Message front the Crown came down to the House, stating, that a proposal had been made by the French King on the subject of the maintenanoel of prisoners of war. Oa the 21st an Address oC 'Thanks was voted by the House, who expressed disk opinion, that the pr.'persal of the French King should be accepted. On the 221 of March, a copy of the Convention was sent down to the House, by which, 5f600,000 was accepted, instead of £1,100,000 that had at first. been demanded. • This communication was accompinied by a cetoficate from Lord Bar rington, Auditor of the Exchequer, that the money had been paid into the Exchequer. That fact was important. The Message had been brought 4000 by Mr. Grenville, then Chancellor of the Eschequer, and from the opinion of Parliament being asked and taken, and the money being paid into the Exchequer, it was self-evident it had been regarded as the pro• perty of the public. No Miniger could have brought down such a Message respecting the private property of the Crown. list an attempt was now made to withhold the army from the controul of Parliament, and the statements on the subject of the money paid by France could hardly be understood. The terri tory possessed by the East India Company had been vested in the Company by the ring and Parliament, fora certain sum of money ; but no pretension had ever been started that that money become the perso. nal property of the Sovereign, but only for the Use of the public. The usage in the present case must be from good times, must be publicly known, and sanctroned by legitimate authority. It must not be a case like that of ship money, nor like the sale of Dunkirk, nor like a decision that had ever taken place in tha case of general warrants. He could not say that he would rejoice if proved. to be in error— but, on the contrary, should lamtnt that a practice so incompatible with the spirit of liberty, was sanc tioned by the principles of the Constitution. The Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving a series of resolution. on the subject of the money paid and due by France, embodying the leading principles of his speech. The first resolution, that a sum of £700,000 had been paid by France in lieu of the revenue of the districts occupied by the British army, was then put from the chair. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE QU&R observed, that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, in the speech which he had delivered to the Hose, had dexterously avoided any appeal to legal authorities, and seemed to admit that all which Mad bees dose was consistent with the law which was applicable tit' the case. So far the argument, by his own admission, was against him. In looking to the merits of the case itself, there was a distinction to be let up be tween the monies levied before the Treaty of Paris and the contributions after that Treaty as signed. With respect to the first part of the wivnies received, from France, there could be no question as to the' vested right of appropriating thews i all contributions made in a state of warfare were clearly at the dis. posal of the Crown, either for the purposes of the army, or any other measure connected with the ge. meal object of the war. It was out of thvie monies that the espenses of transportieg the works' of art from Paris to their several destinations were defray ed, and the sum assigned for the erection of a monu ment to the memory of Cardinal York formed part of the same common fund. This would distinctly , appear by reference to the Treaty, and on these grounds the application was defensible, although k might appear Oat it was not, in the strict sense of, the language, for the public service. The Hon. And' LeatnedGentleman had charged him with maintain log, that these different sums of money wert all druits, o the . Crown but this was an otter mistake, for be had Maintained no such doctrine ; and, hi peoofmq the • , be begged to sembuil the lime, that at the :ope*ft of tbi Session he bad stated, tint al thew IlionMs would be placed to the public rberViCe by command of . the Prince Regent.--(Near, drar.)—;lt was admitted then, that there was no difficulty with reipect to the payments before the Treaty ; and as for those after the Treaty, this principle must be ap plied, viz. that the Sev:reign receives all for the benefit of the public, subject to the provisions of the Twaiies, by which the contributions are made.— 'Admitting this to be the proper light in whichsto view cite question, the whole money had been as well applied as if it had been transmitted through Parlia-• ment.—(Hear. hear.)—On that part of the subject which related to the sums paid to the Allies, be had to remark, that their necessities might be more press ing than our own, and must be presumed to be so, as their countries had suffered the desolation of war. It was more than probable, that they would apply. the money to the rebuilding of their towns and vil lages which had been burnt, and in applying the means of subsistence to their unfortunate subjects.— Indemnities must have been proviJed for these sacri fices, and if they bad not been met in this manner, they might have been called for in another way less unob jectionable. He apprehended it was quite clear that the contributions were net to be applied to the private purposes of the Crown, but by the treaty it expressly appeared that they were to be applied to the public service. With respect to the question, how tar the sums would be adequate or not to the purposes set forth, was immaterial to the present argument.— The itional ' - iple involved in the tmitted that the were Id be * Ihe Honour:thle _ ts, which he cow came to notice, wasohe donation to the army, and here he was quite ready to admit that if it could be fairly considered as a donation made by foreign powers, it would be a just subject of suspicion (Harr, hear). — But such a construction was foreign to the convention. The conv e ntion s t a t es , t h a t in consequence of the occupation of Paris by the Allied troops, this sum of money should be given to them, from the general contributions. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman himself did not deny the wisdom and justice of the grant, and the propriety of it was admitted throughout ie whole kingdom— (Hear, hear.)—He could not see in what respect this dared from former donations to the army, as for instance, that which toms given for the taking of Java. He was quite sure that there never was one more Moderate, considering the brilliant and important services which bad been performed. It was given for the capture, of Paris, which might have entitled the soldiers to something more, had the army levied a contribution for itself. He was willing to acknow. ledge that, considering the relative situation of the Crown and the people in the present times, compared !'with the former periods of ourtistory, but little weight was due to precedents, in the decision of such ques tioas now. However, the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had stated that an address was sent up to Queen Anne, requesting the grant of the money she received in virtue of the Assiento Treaty, to the pub. lie service. Now he could not but think this an un fortunate precedent for the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, as it made directly against him ; for the fact of the House sending up such a request, was a eskeogoition of the right of the Crown to dispose of the money as it might think fit, and the Queen main tains this right by the answer which she makes of her having applied it to the promotion of the commerce of the country, which she conceived the best of purposes. The other precedent quoted in the definitive Treaty of Peace of 1763, arose from a balance claimed by this country upon a settlement of accounts for the ex penses of prisoners of war. The amount due war 5e900,000, and the French Government annually to pay this offered 4700,000. The Crown sent down a message to the House, communicating the fact, and to take its determination on the subject. But it would be seen that this was not a contribution or in. demnity. It was a balance arising out of expenses which Parliament bad defrayed, and the Crown could, not mistake that this was Parliamentary money, and a business entirely within the jurisdiction of the House. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, nothing could be more proper than that the House should be asked if it would take the sum offered, and the House consented. He did not deny that this was a constitutional prece dent, but he did deny' its analogy to the case in dis. cussion. There was one precedent more upon which he should make a few observations : which was the suns paid by the East-India Company for the renewal of their Charter. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman says, why not the Crown keep this money, upon the ground of its being a territotial grant f but the fact was, the Charter was much more than a ter. Etorial grant, it was to give an exclu s ive t ra de t o t h e ast, and vest them with civil and political dominion. Nothing could be more futile than to suppose that the Crown could by any treaty acquire that sum of money. which would enable the Sovereign to assail the Constitution—nothing of the kind could ever enable him to stand indeptadent of Parliament. The immesh of this boasted sum, from which such ef fects were contemplated, was 'little more than five millions in five years. Could Parliament now profess to feel any apprehensions for the discretion of the Crown in the use of-such a sum, when, the very last year, it had, by a vote of credit, placed six millions la the disposal of the. Crown—(Hear, hear:)—The pretence of this; leading to repeated exactions from ovanquished enemies, on the part of the Crown for its own advantage, was too weak to •be seriously met in argument. Treaties between this counts,' and any foreign Power must be published, and the conditions thereof submitted to the House, and not like the Treaty of Charles with the French King, be kept an entire secret from the Legislature.--, He next remarked, that although the/Intl:1 army in France was to be paid with the contributions of the French Government, still they would be under the ccultroul of Parliament : and, in fact, the army is to be paid by a vote of the House,. which took place after it was announced to the House that this expense would be met by these payments. The reason why I the proposal of appropriating these sums at once to, the support of the army in France was founded on a ' supposed analogy of the East • India Company's whiny expenditure, for which no vote was taken in the supply, because those troops were under, the worts) of the Coots/. Du; gage it hite , . _ ie Assiento Contract had been claimed by The constitutional principle was not ii when the House of Commons on June 9, Amount of the coutributbns. He ads an address• that it should twitrpledk_ AN Pio 4 ;he arms kw., 4 lbl io rti4 It t debts of - the'sation. The rumour bag I . - ais by le mone y was to have been vestedin that at the of that term there wool these trustees were to have been Lord of A 500,000: Another branch of thi and Mr. Marsharn, in whose names it and Learned Gentkmaa's arguments, "boa named to the time, analdgy was not complete, must be included br the Muti to the general military regu! fore determined to take a vi money to the public service. King receives the money as the it was like an excess of grants, public burthens to its amount would be limited by it, and the called on to provide for more lutely necessary. The Honour; tleman had attempted to t h ro , Ministers, but it certainly lay the House to drew to whom tl if not to the Sovereign, the n lion abroad in every act in wl gaged. He thought it clear, fr , that the monies were to be with the advice of th e Privy Council, subject to do duty of accounting for the application to Park He knew this Was a power which might be abused, but if this were to be admitted as generally stk 6cient for withholding or denying the power of t h i i Crown, it would overturn all the political instituti on of the country, and leav e t h e Executive without th e means of performing its fu nct i ons , or protecting fit public weal. On the se groun d s h e s h ould wove et previous questio n . Mr. TIERNEY obs erve d, t h at the Chanc e ll or o f the Exchequer admitted the the King - monies in trust for the put Honourable Friend inch Hoi lied, "arss.- 7 would be apps (Mr.. Tierney) was not sa should have been a Mer though the House was much at one end, as it paid of these cart tibutions, this arrangement in good in good faith, aid the very that something might arise House Upon the necessity into this disposal of these the Crown should have tri. its disposal, and Kan time tell what was done with come down to the House Session, flushed with the and said he had got five 1 gut how stands the question army and this m y; is etebe e kept t orte is in ny Fr This was to go on for 'five that time we were to receive It might be that the whole keep the army in France, ' them was irregular. Out monument to Cardinal You it was possible that some to within the scope of these made. Bold as the Noble suppose, if tSis motley had he could have come down _ upon the Cardinal, and proposed nurneut ; be could not have propose, or at least he bell have found any one hardy . him. The proper mentonem ,of his family was in history warning to all Kings, that to drive them from their Thy and deserve it—(Hear, heat to the sum to be given to the ference of opinion between He (Mr. Tierney) and his friends say, it is a proem from a foreign Power of two millions to the Allied Armies, and that Austria and Russia had each given . up £500,000 to the English and Prussian army, Then the Right Hon. Gentleman says, the - King is in this affair a steward for the nation, but he mould not like a steward who was to have. the controul of the receipts of his master in this manner. He would suppose that ha had a steward, who should send him word that he had received all the rents, but that he was in a course of expenditure, and when all was gone he would tell him what had been done with it. He might remonstrate with his steward, and receive for answer that he WAS using his endeavotati to get through it ; he was buying plouglis and harrows' (because, perhaps, he had a lriend in the trade), auto would send in an account as soon as he It to beea able to expend the whole. Now he should not like this plan, and would rather buy for himself ; and be in the present instance, he woad much rather Lay out the money at first, than be required to sciutiaiae the application of it afterwards. Lord CAS FLEREAGH thought the attempt of the Right Hon. Gentleman to answer the speech of his Honoulable htiend, was the best proof of the va lue of that speech ; and the completeness of the an swer which it contained to the argumeafts of the Honourable Gentleman who had brought forward the motion. That the monies in question were nut considered as droits by the Crown was evident, train the circumstance of no Message being sent down to the Hoene with respect to diem ; wherea., hid they been so held, the Crown would, as in all forsier in maces,ontt tw eu ar een ds ttlete Message,seie of tst a tinghe yacmg.i—ft ( t ; It " t e , hear.)—With respect to Cardinal Yorke. it was con. sidered proper to pay some tribute lotus memory, as be was.a fragment of Royalty, who had experice‘ed the Royal bounty during his life. Oil the subject of the donation to the army, he thought it right to state, that Marshal Blucher had suggested to the Doke of Wellington, that the troops were entitled to levy con tributions on the city they had taken. It was then thought best to enter into an arrangement for the canuributioni, which was done for the Sovereigns, and the 'l'reaty gave nu right to the soldiery in any such sums. It had afterwards been determioecho make the donation to the troops. He did not think it ne cessary to detain the House, as all the• points in the defence of the motion had been so ably met and re. futed by his Honourable Friend. Mr. YONSONBY returned his very best thanks to his Honourable and Learned Friend, for bringing forward this motion, and for the very eloquent marline in which he had discussed it. He rejoiced in Ibis dr- Pctusion, because,- be had no doubt,. that Ministers, at the beginning of the Session, claimed the vested right*in these contributions for the Crown : but their likaSiiiie WM iww glilF 58414 1 44%; *dtd "41" R op du see . , MOne' °I. ft was found thit v;o1 as the army in h a taiiny Bill, and seh l bact4 Ri ilatton s . It was e l it , t vote, still applying ti the He admitted tliarsisi Sty he steward of the !mite; ail( s, and would relieve Lilt qlit, as th e other gruti the House would nteb t Stu . e thin wh at was able, sq rable and Learned Ch ow the mar firedoe; elk SO with th e other 840 to t these moni es de helmet, qic represe ntat i ve of the ditch the nation h e * , iom what he had slam. .41j1 applied by, the Crewe, 1.1 Cannril f.RNEY observed, that the Chancellor of to uer admitted that the King received t h e , rust for the public, and that was whathin e Friend principally contended for. 'l tourable an had al so renew Le d , ~'ssMit,- would be applied to the•public; but he, ley) was not ratifi e d w i t h t hi s , and there dc re been a Message on the subject. M. OR House was told that it would save as to end, as it paid at the other, by the he)p it tibutions, and was called upon to tak e /I :went in good fats, he would take nothin g X.a th, aid the very call creates a &tupe lo , ' L hing might arise which would pot the pa in the necessity of enquiring most rigidly pe iposal of these funds. limas strange th at in should bave upwards'of five milhoesn to and 1101136 time hence come forward to it vas dose with it. The Noble Lord had 71 to the House -at the begimiieg.of the 'shed with the g l or i es of his negocta t im e tb e had got five millions for the people... tk ands the question nowt Why an English El be kept in France to support the Boer. ha this money is to go to pay the army. be go on for 'five years, and at the gad e were to receive a surplus of 5e500,000. Oi e that the whole House would agree to Mil my in France, but this mode of paying ~of regular. Out of these fund s , though the I :o Cardinal Yorke was to be paid fur, and P l ' sle that some other payments, not strict' i to :ope of these contributions, were to he tf las the Noble Lord was, he could hardly A l !pis money had not been in the way, that wl re come down to the House, with an Ale ( irdinal,- and proposed a vote her thi s um a could not have found face sufficient to °el at least he believed that be would not 211 _, any one hardy enough to have seconded 0 4. proper monument of this indOridual and was in history; and it was also a proper ill Kings, that the people have the Tighe th in from their Thrones, if they behave AI 4 0 it —(Hear, hear.) Then, with respect o be given to the army, there was adit• inion between the two sides of the Hose. :rney) and his friends say, it is a payment gn Power of two millions to the Allied that Austria and Russia had each given_ 1 to the English and Prussian army.— ight Hon. Gentleman says, the - King is a steward for the nation, but he mould !ward who was to have the controul of sf his master in this manner. He would P he had a steward, who should send bins V r . ,