Star. — London, England, 1811-01-26 00:00:00

, r two to the . bete %Ida the Noble Ind Learned chit? and 14 odes poimell ant to Wm. -He *Muhl Preheat, all sUct meats' we withheld from her. tc Lord sanction such a decision. by any other person rat id every possible case upan his own responsibility, aq.ord of the Bedchamber failed in the due discharge in a private ease t H. would veuture to ask the and be content to knee the consequences to•Gon.— , of his duty—should he even be guilty of negligence i Learned and Noble Lotd, Whether in the Court of He Would not, mid could not lay out of his tontem• or indignity towards his Majesty, the Queen would Chancery he woad conscientiously resolve coda such platiou the personal feelings and comfort of the Mo. h e ave no power either of removing, or supplying his a decision ? l4e doubted not but that in n& a case nareh ; he would not, to use the word of a writer well p4oe. He found the same restrictions extended to the Noble and Learned Lord would listen as ecrupu. s:cilled in the s c ience of human nature, di:Quantitate the the exercise of h er p ower , whether applied to the First lously to hie conscience as if it were pro to him Household, and reduce the domestic establishment of Lord of the Household , or to the lowest menial at to put the Crest Seal to, n Act which proposed tniot the his Sovereign, in the period of his afßaction. The tendant on his Majesty—so much then for the pa sanction of the Royal Authority. But all the restric . C i rcu mstances of a tem p orar y inca p acity were not thetic appeals with which their Lordships had been Sion: to be imposed on the Regent were justified, on those under which it appeared to him just or gene. so vehemently assailed upon the plausible ground the ground that they were only to be of a temporary roes to remove from him what had belonged to him of consulting the personal convenience of his Majesty.. nature. To this observation he shield reply by re. as the King of this country. He for one could not —There were, however, other considerations, and farting to the very critical situation of affairs at the take his heart from his breast, or forget that `his Ma- amongst them, that was not least important which present moment but critical as it was, he would eon, jesty was a man. Until he should vacate his Throne respected the Address sent by both Houses to the tend, that even in ordinary times the Executive Au. by descending into the Frave, to no other person , Prince of Wales and to the Queen. Those Noble thority should not be so crippled. It had indeed been would he acknowledge himself a subject. He had Lords who thought that the subsequent arrangements. remarked, that those who , on former occasions, were been attacked and reviled, but this he disrega•ded ;1 provided for by the Bill, with respect to the House most forward to assert that the inglience of the actions which he had never performed had been in. hold, did amount to a breach of faith with either the Crown ought to be guarded against and dimi.. puted to him ; and others had been swelled and dts- Prince or Queen, could not be expected to vote in lashed, -were now the loudest in deprecating all torted by calumny and misrepresentation. In the support of those arrangements, and as far those lestrictions and limitations on the power of the newspapers h e might tomorrow read, as he had often who had supported the Measure of 1788, they could :kegent. Great indeed has been the increase of the before read, actions and expressions attributed to him, not therefore be called upon* to support the Bill now 4tifluente of the Crown from the increase of the army of which he was perfectly uncimsci , us, And of which before the House, especially in those points iii which indtaiy, from the increase of the national deb:, &r. he had never heard till he saw them recorded in those it was not only dissimilar to the former, but repug. -and 'he was ready to agree that any such increase newspapers. He assured their Lordships that to all mutt and contradictory to it—the regulations pro sliould ever be considered by Parliament with the eye this he was insensible, and viewed-it without any seuti. vided in each, respecting the Civil List, were mate of j ea l o usy. But on the present occasion that power ment of pain. To the statements of thin diurnal rially different. In the Bill of 1788, a c l ause was an d influence which might be exerted for the public publications •he never referred, without d scoyeting inserted. expressly providing that the q uar t er ly ex . good, was placed in other hands, and diverted into errors and misrepresentations, but the coo ,eintisness penditure during the King's illness, should not ex different channels from which no increase could be of rectitude and integrity was sufficient to sustain him ceed the amount of the expence of the former guar expected in the energies of the Executive Government, against any consequences that might affect him from ters previous to the illness of his Majesty, but in the but merely an engine to strengthen their personal any quarter. Whatever those consequences might present Bill he was not aware of any adequate pro power placed in the hands of the Ministers of the day. be, he was prepared to brave their shock, whatever • vision for the due responsibility in the expenditure of From views of their own, they attempted to shackle they might be : this part of the public money. He should say no the hands of the Executive Power for a year, although , impavidum frrint rains! more at present upon the Bill itself, but content him- within that very year, the honour, the prosperity, So long as he served a master so justly dear to him self with stating it as his opinion, that the clause now and the safety of the country might be brought into ;and to the country, it would he consolatiln enough before their Lordships, was so inconsistent with th hazard, be fought for and decided. But should he ,to him to be satisfied that he was a zealous and faith- former resolutions, upon which they had grounded be asked, why object to placing this power in her Earl servant. He well recollected the time when the their address to the Queen, and to the Prince, that he Majesty's hands? he should not perhaps make any ! reign of revolutionary principles, and the influence of should feel it to he his-duty to vote that the clause objection to its so being placed, if in reality the Queen ! jacohi.iical doctrines had well nigh subverted the shall not stand pit of the Bill. were to possess and exercise that power; but was Constitution and the Government of the country. The LORD CHANCELLOR begged leave to that' the case? The Queen was indeed to have the Among those who were now opposed to him, were be distinctly understood as rut absolutely approving care of his Majesty's no— and the power of filling I some who had concurred with him in the measures; of the present Clat se , He ise, did nut approve of taking . th, , person, up certain vacancies in his Majesty's Household, if suc:i should occur from death or resignation. Her Majesty was even to have the disposal of all parts of the Household, excepting certain offices which were the least essential to the convenience end comfort of his Majesty. But the Queen was not to have the power of removing any of them without the authority of the King, and thus they were ren dered independent of her Majesty; such were the offices of the Lord Chamberlain, the Lord Steward; the Master of the Horse. &c. &C. And not only wai her Majesty debarred from appointing to such offices, but not permitted to remove them even in cases of misconduct ; no, not a Physician or even a Page.— By agreeing . to the present clause, their Lordships would therefore equally depart from the spirit of the . - . •Resol. re. spect to her Majesty and to his Royal Highness the lirince of Wales. The tendency of all these measures m iy be discovered in one :—the place of LordChazu berlain is now vacant, and is not to be filled by her Majesty. What influence is placed in the hands of 'ions they liadalreaZiy adrpted, brat w.th which were then successfully adopted, to stop the progress of those principles, and among them were also to be found those who, under the appellation of gagging bills, had rdiculed those measures. He verily believed, that amid the convulsions :tad perils' of that period, it was the private virtues of his Majes ty's character that had gone the hrthest to effect the salvation of the empire. With those virtues in his remembrance, could he feel justified in tdcing advan. cage of an incapacity which there was more reason than ever to believe would be o f very short duration, to b upon his domestic comtorts, to violate his person feelings, and to deprive him of his Royal di6nity and splendour ? He envied not the feelings of those who could reconcile, under any circumstances, such a proceeding to _their minds. • lie could never put it out (Allis recollection, that the Committee had - - two objects to accompl ish•—thity had provide both for the stability and security of the-Government, And for the safe resumption of the Rnyal Functions on the part of his Majesty, whenever NS recovery was ascer tained. The Noble Earl (Grey) had enlarged on of. the 'fr - tad in this tr that MR cer, it was unnecessary to explain ; it is not, however, in abeyance, but the whole of it is to be transferred to the Vice-Chamberlain, who is to be independent.of the Queen. What then becomes of the necessity which was to regulate and limit tire duty of Parliament op• the present emergency ? It extend ed no farther than to provide for the defect or the :Royal Authority. But your Lordships have gone , farther; indeed, so far as to have wholly lost sight •of that doctrine of necessity by which the whole of vour proceedings on the present occasion were 11) be regulated. - The great object, meanwhile, has been .hr any part nt the Houselpild from the Queen. 1-fe would have left the wh .le of tho Household with her Majesty. The I `` • - LANSDOWNE here - and el.. vill"-",-1-- T r - antrWtt in3t itiCh AtAta,itteffitin fat in a;! the Government, so, In like winner, k was not rtght to take awayany of the dignity due to the Soreteign, The additieinal sum which might be found for the splendour of the Regent was so inconsidetab e that it could Le no object to the nation ; Its amount would not equal the fourth part of the expenee which hitt been laid out in improving their Lordships i House ; and would they hesitate to bestow this, via thus avoid the shame and disgrace of bereaving their Sovereign of his proper splendour and dignity? He wished to follow the precedent of 1788 closely § and to avoid making the contrasthetween 1788 and 1811 disgraceful to the latter. What had 22 years don: to lower the Sovereign in the eyes of the country He entreated their Lordships to spare their Sovereign the possibility of feeling a disappointment at their proceedings on his recover y ; and to avoid departure from a precedent which did immortal honour to the person who had the merit of it, He should therefore give his vote for the rejection of the Noble Marquis's Amendment, The question being then loudly called for, the Com mittee dividcd on the Motion, that the words of the original Clake should stand part of the Bill ; when the timbers were— Contents D 6 Not-Contents - Majority against Ministers - `l 5l The Committee we understand (as strangers con- . tinued excluded) after some discussion as to the man ner of putting the motion, proceeded to divide nn the Amendment moved by the Marquis of Lausdowue, when the numbers were— Contents 10? Not-Contents - 98 Majgrity against Ministers - —9 This diminution of thensajority on the first Motioe arose, We understand, in consequence of Lord Radi nor, who before voted with the Opposition, having on this proposition, divided with Ministers, and the accession of Lord Warwick, who was not in the Hruse r,p the first division. When strangers were readmitted, we found Earl' GREY animadverting on the Clause which provides for the appointment of a Council to assist the Queen. Marquis of _ rose _ e:, pressed a hope, from what had just fallen from the Noble and Learned Lord, that he would vote for the Amendment LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR replied, that tho' he did not altogether approve of the original Clause, it did not follow that he might not more strongly dis approve of what was proposed by the Noble Marquis to be substituted in its place. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, that he un derstood the Learned Lord to disapprove of the clause, and therefore concluded that he would vote that said clause should not stand pert of that Bill. Zid noble the importance 'former, ai ..4 ..- re spect he coincided with him ) but he'. must, contend, that in securing his Majesty's restoratibn to his Go vernment, they were providing. in the most effectual 'manner for the true interred and the.ulti,miste ipecu ..rity of the Government. Was it:to be'believkl, that the offices; withheld from the cunt:road of the Regent, could possibly create any sotous embitrrassinent in his measures ? Was the Noble person who tilled the office of Master of the Horse, to be supposed incapa ble. of voting 'according to his real opinions on the public interests, or would the Nobte Earl opposite to hi he thref( livable of serving his rhe LORD CHANCELLOR sal I..nrd had again misunderstood . him. He had thought in the first instance that the Household should be left with the Queen ; Parliament had told him he was wropg in that opinion; and he was now for leaving with her Majesty as much of the Household as the House would agree to leave her, since they would not _ _ The Noble Earl considered it a most extravagant supposition to presume, as that Clause did presume, that persons would be appciated by the Regent, • tc? fill the most dignified situations in the country, who could feel other interests, than those prescribed by their duties, The Clause itself contained a most in.) sidious reflection. It seemed to assume, indeed it was admitted by the Noble Lords opposite, that the House should place every impediment against those ,to whom the . Regent may extend his confidence. If that was the principle, it was better at once to intro duce a Clause disqualifying such persons from bold ing any place of trust under the Government. - LordSTANHOPE gave notice of his intention to move an amendment on this clause, when the Report should be brought up. On 'th, - reid, relative to the dirors-!-' that the I dial to clause being leave the whole of it to her Majesty's controul. Lord CLANCARTY said, that as there were Noble Lurds who disapproved both of the clause and the amendment, they mien vote against the clause, provided the possession of the House was not pre. occupied by an amendment. Lord REDESDALE suggested, that that object might be in some measure answered, if the words proposed to stand part of the clause should be put in the following form, that those words be here inserted. This motion, if rejected, would afterwards leave the clause or to be corrected by the House. of the Privy Purse. Earl GREY said, he could not suffer that clause to pass without some animadversion. He thought that the subject of the Privy Purse should not have been scrutinized by Parliament in the manner it had been. It was completely inconsistent with th Ise prim' • ciples of delicacy by which the Noble Lords op posite Affected to be actuated. He thought the dis posal of the entire Privy Purse should be vested in the hands of his Royal Highness the Prince of Wales * when Regent, to enable him to dispense those Royal bounties—to perform those acts of regal munificente, which shed additional splendour on the Kingly dig nity, and for which purpose the Privy Purse-Was granted to his Majesty. Fnr he conceived that it was As necessary to the dignity of the Regent to distribute rewards to men of talents, to encourage genius, and to patronize the arts and sciences, as to that f - to strengthen the hand; of the Ministers. Was this am, if in office, .aierefore onabie e. ong 1. 'pen .._ . / patronize too ..._ n . . He thought the entire powers of the Crown the the intention of Parliament ;or was it not the duty I country, or of expressing the honeet conviction of his Eorl STANHOPE said, that from the high opi. r Kig should be vested in the Regent ; and he felt con of Parliament to watch such attempts? The Queen mind'? But the argument was extended to all who 1 nion which he entertained of a Noble Lord (Gren winced that his Majesty, on his recovery, would be -is supposed to have a certain authority over the , held places in the Household, and if the argument • vile) who opposed the amendment, and his wish that Household ; but are not the principal Offisers of that I were just, he could only say, -that he must wish to he should always think in the same manner as his pleased to learn that his bounty had been distributed I Establishment irremoveable by her Molests' ? i here , withdraw hone sash a society as that in which he . Lordship, and that his Lordship should think in the during his illness under the superintending care of his is, therefore, a great proportion of ihole Officers, I then stood', as a society of a character and description same manner with him, he was very sorry that he Son. greed who, for a year, are under no controul and who must , with w hich he had never betere mixed. The Noble , should be deprived of his vote this evening; but he The Earl of LIVERPOOL a with the Noble th be devoted to the Ministers of the day, to whom they : and Learned Lord declared, that he was siot arnbi- hoped that when the numbers came to be reckoned Lord who had just sat down, at the Privy Purse must feel indebted. Besides, is it not to be consider- ! tious of continuing in place—that he was incapo- . they would be able to do without him (a la ug h.) had been granted for mtinifizent purposes ; but ht' ed how such an arrangement may affect the Civil List? hie of entertaining any interested views at such a ! Lord SIDMOUTH said, that all the arguments thought that to take advantage of the temporary in. Thereareg3oo,oooor Xloo,ooodisposolde at theplea- . period as th e p resent ; and concluded, by repeating ' which . he had heard this night in favour of the disposition of his Majesty, for the purpose tf trans sure of those Officers. By what principle of the Consti- his regard an d veneration for his Ma j est y . 1 Amendment, resolved into the deviation of the Bill fening the controul of it to any other person, would tution are they to be vested- with such a power ? Is I Lord C LANCARTY was a g ainst the amend- from the Resolutions. He wanted to know what was be a most ungracious and indelicate action.—( Hoary su c h a p o w er to b e pl ace d i n the hands of Officers . meat, but we understood the Noble Lord to be hostile intended to be conveyed to the understanding of the hear.) —In every view he had t a k en o f t h e su bj ect , i s of the Crown whom you cannot dismiss ? Under ,to the c lause itself as then worded. House, when that Resolution was adopted. The appeared to him to be one pregnant with difficulty...— all these views of the clause, he could not imagine ' Lord GRENVILLE said , that he should consider Noble Lords who p ers i s t e d i n maintaining this devia- In 1789, much animadversion had taken place in that it would be approved by their Lordships.— the ques tion then before their Lordships not so much lion could not agree in the tense to be given to the consequence of the grant of X 16,000, which had been The Noble Earl concluded by observing, that. after in r eference to the p ro p osed amendment, as to the Resolution. The meaning which the Noble Earl made on the representation of the Minister. That what had passed, and had transpired through various immediate consideration whether the words now in (Grey) attached to it, was different from that enter- sum only was then found necessary. But the means, the House should have better authority (aria the clause shall or shall not stand part of that clause ? taints.' by the Noble Marquis (Lansdowne). It was penditure of the Pnvy Purse had since, from a va. xnu Icoheresperactlohat authority) , than that of the with respect to that part of t he qu estion he felt no said that there has been a breach of faith with this nets , of causes, increased to £30,000 per annum; Pottle and Learned.tord on the Woolsack, to con- difficulty, and as to the perplexity complained of and with the o ther House. There has been nu such and it was thought right to provide to that extent, wince them of the competency of his Majesty to re- by the Noble Lo rd, he thou g ht the course to be breach of faith. It is impossible to say that a Reso. having first, for the satisfaction of Parliament, in sums his Royal functions, and to authorise him to pursued b y the N oble Lord in either case to be, lution has not been adhered to, which is not specific, stituted an inquiry on the subject. And he was do that, which bp could not presume•to do, unless it • according to his own she win g , sufficientl y obvious.— and which admits of the utmost latitude of interpre- authorised to say, that that inquiry bad bee n con were manifekoheotherxiteinivePower was complete. If the Noble Lord was of opinion that these words tation. He wi s h ed th a t the p roceedin g s of 1788 had ducted with the most scrupulous delicacy. No The LOLD CHANCELLOR t ",in very energetic ought to stand part of the clause, he in that case b een c l ose ly f o ll owe d. I n d ee d a ll t h e inconveniencies a single question had been proposed which could i , , after mature consi language, . declared that the allusions of the Noble would vote against the amendm e n t ; and on the which had arisen in the progressof the present measure the slightest degree affect the feelings of his Ma j esty. Earl who }Adjust sett down , were so marked, that he question that these w ords remain, he would of course had their origin in the departure from the precedent of This mode had been pursued , dens could not so pp res r the emotions w hich they liod pro- i say content ; but if he thought , a s h e u nd erstoo d the 1788. He thou g ht that an y division of the House- tion, in preference to coming forward with the me - duced in his mind. If he had referred to his own Noble Lord to think , t hat these words ou g ht not to hold was improper. He was willing that all necessary statement of Ministers, which, on a former occasion conscientious feelogs,- it was because, from the out= remain, he, on the question being put that these words and becoming splendour should be given to the Re- !had been severely censured. sst of his public hie to the present hour, he had en- stand pet of the clause, will say, not-content. With gent ; but when he wished this, he could not give i The Earl of MOIRA observed, that notwith desivoured to regulate his conduct by the impartial respect to an illusion made b y the Noble and Learn. his consent to strip the King of his dignity. He !standing what had been aliedged as to the deli , suggesti o n s of his conscience. Confident in the pro- ed Lord on the W o o l sack, to the p art taken b y him wished that the Re g ent should be armed with all the sate manner in which the examination had been con 'pity of his own heart, and assured of the integrity (Lord Grenville) at the period of 1788, he could ordinary power of the Government; but he did net Iducted, he could not avoid still thinking it a mos • with which h e h a d laboured to perform the duties of assure the Noble Lord, that that moment had not yet wish that all power should be taken from that illus- i improper proceeding. Th e d e li cac y an d secret his office, both to the Sovereign and to the public , he arri v ed , and he believed never would arrive, in which trious person to whom the care of the Sovereign was ;with which these acts of bounty were performs. . rendered them doubly valuable—and he could no' ' orchid neither court nor shrink from scrutiny and in - he sh o u ld, in the sli g htest de g ree, re g ret the part entrusted. He agreed , however, in the propriety o f vestigation. The sole and cons:ant rule of action taken by him on this memorable o c casion. The se n. d e p r i v i ng he r of the power of removal, that every ob- conceive Ally thing likely to be more pairiful to th with him had b e en the satisfaction of his own mind, tionents he then had on the subject of the Household k et o sis o f a const i tut i ona l natur e might be obviated. feelingi of hi s M a j est y, t h an t o fi n d, on his recd and he would not scruple to declare to their Lord- governed h im s t ill. He then said what he now re- ./t had been stated by a Noble Baron; that if you take i very, that his private bounty had become a subject a i ships that no (oars, no influence of any kind should peated , that they should surround the sick bed of Ma- away the power of removal , you subj ec t y our S o ve- Parliamentary investigation. He differed from tit deter him horn doing over again what he had already jesty with dignity ; every possible provision should be re i g n t o t h e c h ance o f i n d ecen t t rea tmeat from per- : opinion delivered by a Noble Earl (Grey) as to th done, if he • conceived that it was necessary to the made to secure to the Royal Person every see the force of this objection. If any persons were comfort sons whom you have no power over. He could not :propriety of granting the contt oul of the Privy Put • interests of the King his Master, or to those of the and convenience. T The feelings which bad i n this re. to the Regent—amid , he was convinced, if it wet country at large. When he mentioned his Majesty; specs op erated u p on his j ud g ment at that period, he, so far to forget themselves as to-behave themselves ' offered to him, that, from motives of re fi ned delicacy he newer could speak of him without gratitude for the should be sorry that 22 years should have blunted ; irreverently or indecently i n t h e presence of his Ma-he would decline it. No one, he thought, was so fi perform those acts of bounty in which the Kin: favours add the obligations lie had heaped upon him, but when he formerly voted for vesting . the House _ jesty, their attendance might be dispensed with, al- I to had indulged himself,. as her Majesty—who, fr. he could. n ihinloof his unhappy _malady without hold in the Queen, he did it o n the principle that her , though a removal should not take place. It was im.l the act 'bili t y. N e i t h er the re ports of the Majesty should be amply provided with tne means oc. possible to conceive that any Persons would have the her situation , m us t b e in p osses q uG u o f t h ose am i a bi Physicians, nor threats in or out of doors, should ape-- enforcing and upholding the aut h or ity t o be . vested i n assurance t o fo rc e th e i r att en dance on his Mojesty; secrets which were connected with the expenditure o di- the Privy Purse. read and age el rare to preventing his exercising his own judgment her.—but here was as one essential point of difference contrary to the wishes of the person who had the in whatever regarded his interests. kleorcuold.rether between the b ill the n . L rough . t into Per . liemen_t, and '. of . inne. They were t o . . recollect that the So- . . The remaining clauses were the n and if to, and the House adjouracd, at eleven e'el k ' periih on the scaffold thin desert his allegiance to his that now before r . ordsht tto *elm:met, mop still existed in his political capacity , oc ,et i provided for tht Quitelli ; but in the. it was mot right, tinonfoen t to take away how .hint Monday. Sovereign, by declining to take nay step, which his ouch means wde pro P n , . • • . . i =o•l.llllllllMlNllllllllllMMlNMlNlNllllMlONllMEnimeminnimmommimmmfteinurrammr.m....... •••.l•••••••• ••rwer....................- . r,•