Star. — London, England, 1807-03-27 00:00:00

thofe who were friendly to the me.tfure. They found they had propofed a mealtre not agreeable to his Is%jelly, and they came to a refolution— for which he did not know t hey were perfealy excufe. able—to withdraw parts of the Bill, and to fubmit it with modifications. They propofed to his ?staidly to be allowed to modify the Bill to that of 1793. a propofal which was received with gracious sonde. icenfion. Upon refienion, they found that the diffi culty refpe&ing the Diffenters was infurmountable, and accordingly they flared, in writing, that as they could net alter the bill as they wiffied, they requefted that they might he permitted to drop it altogether. Perhaps their Lordfhips would think they had gone ton far in conceding to drop a meafure which they conceived neceffary for the fafety of the empire. His anfwer was, they withed to accommodate their con duet to the feelings of his Majefly. The meafure, however, was laid before Parliament, where it received the warm approbation of many perfons, and it was out of their power to flop the difcuffinn. It was not to be expeCled that it would he allowed to drop without ditaufli an, and without Miniaets being called upon to account for their cnndua. !lad they allowed the bill to drop, Hill the meafure would come before Parliament in another shape, and they would be obliged to explain thetrfelaes, and !late why the fame conciliating policy, which they recommended out of office, was not I Unwed when they were in They therefore felt it itegyrifiibly ncriary he would ufe the very words they employed, humbly to fubmit to his Majefly a reprefentation as to their future con do& They did not, in the wrads of the libel which had been ciiettlated refpeCting this tranfaCtion, Rate, that they mutt referee to therrfelves the liberty of fubmitting to his Mmjelly fuch meafures as they thought necelfary with tripe& to the Catholics, but of fubmitting them to his Majefly fir his skim: — Upon their three weeds he laid a thong emphalls, becaufe, for obvious purpoles, they were omitted in. the gaatb!ed extra& publithed in the papers. They alfo teferved the privilege of explaining themfelves whenever this fubjeCt Ihould be brought before Par liament. The anfwer was a gracious acceptance of what they propofed, accompanied with an expteflion of regret, that any neceffity fhtaild arife for avowing fuch °pillions to Parliament. To their utter afia inifhment, however, they were boon after called upon to give a written pledge that no further concellion to the Catholics Ihould be propofed. A more painful condition could not have been irnpofed upon any fet of men. What would be their fituation, if they wets: to be bonna by their oaths, and fettered at the tattle time by a written engagement ? Were they to withhold that advice which they mi"ht deem neceffary for the fafety, nay the very exittence of the empire? What would be the effe& upon the Con- Ititution ? Could it craft if fuch a principle were re• cognized, as that Minifters were rafting upon a writ ten pledge of the nature he had Hated ? Suppofe the exittence of Ireland at flake, and islinifters were called upon to account for their conduct, was he to jullify himfelf by faying " Oh! that corner was torn out of the mars of the Empire which was committed to my keeping." Would not the recognition of fuch a principle ILike at the very root of the Conliitution, overturn the maxim, that the King can do no wrong —hut that his Minifters could, and re-eßablifh that mciiiirons and diabolical principle, by which a So vereiga was I:7ought to the bar of his fubjeCts ? He would not take up more of their Lordfhips' time.— When it pleated his Majeay to call him to his Coun cils, he accepted the invitation, not as a ma:ter of en joyment, hoe as a matter of duty- He should affure his fuaceffors whatever they might think, that they neither went to " a bed of rotas" nor have they left one behind them. As to Ireland, he would fry, that if any other fattens was adopted there than that which was fo happily purfued by his Nohle Friend near him (Lord Hardwicke), and the Noble Duke who fucecetied hirr, that country won!d be in immenfe danger. If ever thole religious animolities were re vived, which had produced loch extraordiattry ex ertions of the authority of Government, it would, be feared, be impoffible again to allay and compofe them. Lord SIDMOUTH role for the pitrpofe of aging that the Administration would never hare prupofed the meafure, unlefs they conceived it met with the approbation of his Majelly. The mifreprefentations which had gone abroad, had rendered it neceffary that his Noble Friend Ihould have folicited permiffion to fpeak the truth, aad the whole truth, before their Lordfhips. He was anxious to uphold that facred principle of our Conaitution, that the King can du no wrong. There was certainly great mikuncep- Lion ms one fide or another, and he was therefore in duced in folicit their Lordfhips' attention. He was addrefling them under the conflru&ive liberality of a pet million not granted to him, by; to the Nobleßaron Who fpnke Wt. The draft of tire difpatch alluded to was fubmirted to hi; Majefly on the toth of Febru ary, and it certainly did embrace the propofition that the Mt of the !rah Parliament thruld he adopted. In the difetiffi• o which took place on that fubje& he Rated that there was no option between repealing the Aft of T 793, nr going that length. It was his opinion that no dittinetion Ihould be made between the Englifh and Irifir Catholic. It was under flood by the perfon who tranfmitted the difparch, that the principle of the A& of the Mal Parliament wowed be adopted, and that the refiriations would be done away. Mr. Eliot, however, had his doubts ; and in confequence ,of a que tiion Fut to him by Mr. O'Connor, whether liifh Catln lies would be ctpable of lseing appointed Gene rals on the flaff he wrote over for frelh infirufliont. The anlwer which was returned to him, was this, that it was intended every military fituation fhould be completely open to them. He Ihould with to fee the man who carried the principle of toleration far ther than be did, but he would always regard the diainaicn between toleration and power : the one was the tight of every man in a free, country, the other was a delegated troll emanating from the fu preme authority of the (late. He always thought that any conceflion as to the latter towards the Ca tholics, inflead of preventing difcontent, would pro mote it ; and that if the appetite for power of there petforis were fed an that way, they would never be fati,fied until they had devoured the Eftablifhed Church, and perhaps the Csnflitution. He would take his (land at the (pot where it was left by the pnion ; and as he had (hewn an abhorrence of fit ting up a Itandard for difference of opinion, yet he . did feel what was due to the eaablifbment of the Femur, and he would not expore it to danger, as he cnneeived would be the cafe, by it:creating the power of the Catholics. Phis was a danger apprehended by Citric of the wifefl and belt men that ever When he became a part of that Adminillrmirm which was unhappily diffolved (he Paid unhappily, becaufe he confidered their fervices important to the bell. in terefls of the nation), he Bated diftinaly that nothing fhould fetter him as to the Catholic quellion. On that principle he had aelted, and to that he would adhere, becaufe he conceived it to be necelfary to the liberties of the country, and to the maintenance of the Conflitntion in Church and State. Lord HAWKESBURY knew that the enlightened principles upon which the Noble Vircntint (Sid mouth) had ailed, were not likely to he deferted by him ; and he felt great fatisfaCtion on that account that he ( Lord Sidmouth) had a feat in the late Ca binet. He knew that the opinions of the Noble Vif count were conformable to his own, that he would op pore a barrier to any encroachments, and that the eflablifhment could net be broken down as long as his Lordfhip complied a part of his Majeity's Executive Government. Whether fuch a dilcuffion could he avoided, under all the circumstances, he could not de. tcrmine ; as it was, he mulct meet it, and he fhould en deavour to do to with candour and truth. Much had been Paid of reports of publications upon this fuhjed, refptffing Cabinet minutes, and other matters of pi i yacy and confidence. if there bad been any titillate ment, he did moil lincerely regret it, but he had no difficulty in avowing, that it was a matter of general nntotiety, that rumours were circulated both contra dittory to the fad, and alfo to the narrative then given by the Noble Baron ; and it appeared that they had been communicated to individuals not conneded with his Majefly's Government. In this fituation he did think it his duty to impart to his Sovereign the impreffinns of his mind, and to confer with thole with whom he had the honour to ail, and he did ark for his Majdty's permiffion to (late what were the grounds upon which he ;meted ler tlae interell of bis empire. The general fuhjeCt of the Catholic rights was not at this time new, it has been repeatedly un der the confederation of Parliament—it had under gone an ample dirculion in both Houfes two years ago—it had been decided by a great majority, and it was conneded with an important traniadion in the year 1801. The Noble Baron (Grenville) had raid what, in regar d to this cpeflion, had been his conduit heretofore, what it was now, and whit it would be hereafter. He (Lord Hawkefbuty) would tell Noble Lords what was confidered a pill view of public du ty, by a man beloved, admired, and he might almoll fay adored, (Mr. Pitt.) Although he went out of office exptefsly on account of a difference on this fubjed, confcientiorrs and honourable as he was, when he again received the confidence of his Sovereign, he declared folemnly, that it was a matter he would not prefs upon his Majerty, although his convictions re• mained the fame; and he did this nut in confequence of any pledge that was exaded of Mai, but volunta rily. lie did not draw any contrail between the be haviour of :he Noble Baron and of this illultious perfon, as any reread!, but merely to thew what was the conduit of a man, whom lie (Lord Gren ville) eleenred as highly as any Noble Lord in that Hoof:. He had leis relulanee in faying be caufe he fairly would acknowledge, that he differed from his Right Hon. Friend ( Mr. Pitt) and his lan guage, at the time when this matter was agitated, was not guided by any petional confiderations, but by the fubilnntial merits of the quellion. Before he came to any particular flatement as to what fell from the Noble Baron, be would fay a few words on the itihjed of the mifundet landing. It was not his intention to enter at any length into the Catholic quelion, but he would fay, that he did molt cordially agree wirh what the Noll:: Vifcount had intimated, that if we had no Deady principle as to this point, we fliould conflantly be exciting difaffedion. Hewould contend that there ought to be fuch a thing as fun damental laws, which nothing but the molt imperi ous neceffity ihnuld rubvert. He infilled that this was conducive to the peace of the realm, and to the in• tereft of the eflablithrnent. The right of petition. ing w a s a fundamental law, the trial by Jury was a fundamentallaw, the independence of the Judges was a fundamental law, and it was not lefs a fundamental maxim, the: the contlitutional eflablifiament is Pro teflant. On this principle, the fame changes were not, to he admitted, as to thir, which might be reforted to in other meafares of govermnent. They might vary the constitution of the army, they might vary the constitution of the navy, they might alter the forms in the adminiaration of jiillice, but if there exiled one thing in the wide circuit of political regu- Ilation which was unchangeable, it regarded our ec clefiaflical ellablilhment. He well knew that thefe would he denominated antiquated notions, ill Inked to the liberal fpirit of the nineteenth century ; but he preferred the bigotry of the year 1688, the bigotry of thole who fupported William on his throne, to all the fafhionable &Chines of modern philofophy. He did cnnfefs, that with reference to this mealtime, he was anxious to hear what the Noble Baron had to fay in its defence, fince he himfelf could not reconcile it to anyone principle of reafon or pnlicy,or to any pradical rule towhich it might be applied. Hecertainlydiddiffer from other Noble Lords on the great queltion of Ca tholic Emancipation, but then he knew the groundsof that differ ence, but be could find none as to this qua lificat ian of the fame meafure. The Catholics, instead of being tranquilized by this conceffion, would be rendered more impatient. Then the principlewas molt objectionable. What was it that was to be thus told to the Catholics? He had always thought that what ought to excite the molt jealouly was, the power of the fwnrd. Were it raid to them, " we give you all power but that of the (word ?" No (it was Paid) we withhold all but the power of the (word." He would conjure Noble Lords to confider what would have been the effect of fuch meafures in 1688, and the event might not be much kfs fatal now. Whe ther he was tight or wrong in his conjeduee on there confequences, no advantagewhatever could mite from this partial measure; it would not tend to appeafe the minds of the Catholics for a month, a week, or a day. He would now proceed to obferve upon Come matters the Noble Baron had noticed, and noon others to which he bad not adverted. He did feel it ne ceirary for the honour of his Majely, and for the honour of the Houle and of the country, to aim at foam precifion and acceracy on this delicate fubjed. The meafure originated in a difpatch from the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, to which the draft of an anfwer was prepared ; and which draft was laid before his %jelly. This inArument contained reflOinne on the particular meafurerefpeaing the Catholics. Upon reading that paper, the imprellion upon his mind was that it was meant to continue the regulation of 1793; but this conflruaion was rot material, and he was convinced it was not confonant with that impofed upon it by the Noble Vifcount, but In far at lean was correct, that f f uch was the underhanding of Mr: Elliot with 'alma to it. When this draft was laid before I bis Najdty, he hated his objedinn to the propoll• tint), and exprefred his difapprobatien of further con cations of this nature to the Catholics. Subfequenily there was a long letter from the Noble Baron and other., in the form of a Cahinet minute, wherein it was recommended to his Majelly to concur in a more reltrieed meafure. Now upon the fubjed of that limitation, this inference molt be drawn-.that it was impoffible the King could underhand the Noble Baron and Vifcount, and the two Learned Lords, that the intention was to make the Irifh Aa of 1793, the general Law of the Empire. He confefred that, upon the perufal of the difpatch the fair conclufion was, that it applied to the lariat Catholics, as well as the Irifh, and it went to the extent of expanding the law of Ireland in 1793 over the whole empire. If the intention were to adopt the regulation of 1793, it would be right to examine a little as to the pi inch ple of that aa. Communications were had with the Catholics, and they were defired to hate the full extent of their demands. They raid, that the pro fell-ion of the bar, that the privileges of cot potations, and that the a, my, humid be open to them, in com mon with their fellow fubjeds. The objed was, to concede to them a certain portion of political power ; and he (Lord Hawkefbury ) would contend, that what was refuted ought to have been grant ed, if the principle were corral nn which the partial redrefs was given. The refervation of Major Gene- ral on the Staff, or any refervation, was incontinent with the ground on which any coned - flan was made. The inference was mutt obvious : it was Lying to them, 41 we do not mean to grant you all that you have a right to obtain." At thh, this was not to he a dillind meafure, but was merely to he introduced in the way of a claufe in the Mutiny Eill ; then the purpofe was changed, and it was to be a feparate and fubflantive meafure. The refult of the whole was manifell ; and he never law a propofition more clear in his life on the face of the whole proceeding, that the affent was given to rendering the Ad of 1793 not partial to Ireland, but co ettenfive with the Empire ; and it was to be founded on a particular (latute, and liable 'o ail the reftritlions difecverable in that statute. Inftead of this, the meafure was applied to cafes not relented in that ad. He was informed that the communication was made to his %jelly on the 3d Match, and that on the 4th the King did conceive that he had hated to the Noble Vifcount (Sidmouth) that the Bill to altered he did not approve. He did not mention this in the way of the fmallell cenfure upon the Noble Vifcount : aded, no doubt, to the ben of his jodgmeta, but it was incumbent upon him (Lord Hawke(bury) to fay thus much, as he had the higheft authority for fo do ing. Afterwards it was proputed to modify the Bill, but, upon the re-consideration of the fubjed, it was determined to drop it altogether. Whether it was difereet in the Noble Baron to refign this projed or not, mull be with himfelf to decide: he (Lord tlawkeibury) would give no opinion upon u, hut he should beg the attention of their Lorcithip4 to the refervations with which this meafure was abandoned. The Bill was withdrawn, on con.ii tion that when the Catholic Petition came forwar2., Minillers were to be at liberty to hate their le , :- melts in favour of the claims, and to be allowed, as his Wijelty's Servants, to fubmit to the Royal consi deration fuch meafures on that fobjed as they thould deem to Ise expedient. There were two parts in this tranfitaion, and in every one of this nature, and it was right to attend to both—not only to regard the flotation in which Knitters themfelves were placed, but the fituation in which they placed their Sovereign. Then arofe the eoreltion as to the manner lin which thefe refeivations affected his Welty. Was it not immediately fern in what an awkward relation the King and his Government moll flood, when a matter like this was brought to iffue, and filch referves were propofed ? What was it hut to divide the executive authority, to hold their Royal Matter out as opp• .fang a meafure his public fervants were difpnfed to fop port ? The Conflitution Paid that " the King can do no wrong," and this was drawing forth his Majelly to invidious nbfervation,contrary to that falutary maxim. It was to call the entire odium upon the King ex clufively and perfonally, and to give populatity to his Minitters for refilling his pleafure, This, then, was not the flotation in which his Majefty fhould Rand with his Government. Upon the unity of ipirit and opinion between the Sovereign and his Minillers mull depend the unity of Government and the peace of the Country. It was not, under fuch circumflances, for his Majefty to wait until the fubjea might be preffed upon him, when he (hould not be able to refill it : it became then his duty to form the refolutinn of difmilling his fervants, with whom he did not find that concurrence which was necefrary far the par. poles of his Government. He was confident that he had hated the particulars correaly, and he wculd leave it to the Honfe to judge, he would leave it to the public to determine, if, when his Majefty's incli nations were oppofed, if, when what he thought for the happinefs of his Empire was thus refilled, he ought to wait for the moment when affent might be forced from him, in Read of regarding the fecurity and welfare of his fubjeds, by a prompt determination on the fit• tore advifers of his Councils. The Noble Baron Paid, that when he came into office, no pledge was demanded of him. If he (Lord Hawkefbury) had been ;sliced, he (hould have laid, that no fuch de mand was nece(fary. This very queftion had been brought under the confideration of Parliament only a few months before the Noble Baron was in of fice ; and it was natural to fuppofe, without requir ing any pledge, that the recent difcuffion, and the peculiar circumllances of the country, would have prevented any Inch propofition from being fubmitted to the King or the Parliament. He felt, as much as the /stable Baron, the neceflity of conflant attention to fo important a part of his Majefty's dominions as the neighbouring ifland ; but tic did not think that half rneafores of this kind, which took up part of the fubjed only, and that the moll objeaionable parr, were likely to anfwer the end propofed. In what had paired, he had received his Majetty's inhruaions, in conjunetio with his Noble and Learned Friend ; and Ro/al Malta, others would be found, who by emb ciliatory meafures (and he had heard of no others% would avert the calamities which were apprehended Under the circumilances now explained, it wt. , thy a very natural alarm for the welfare of his iltbiea, was excited in the breaff of his Majelly, and he had no alternative but to call thole Minifiers to his Coon. cils, who, in duty and confcience coincide with him on a rubjett that he confiders fo effeutial to the in ac• and profperity of the Empire. Lord G REN'. 7 ILLE declared that no conflieration tinder heaven fhotsld make him enter into the fervi:e of the King without having fuch a refervation, as the Noble Lord alluded to, upon his mind. Lord HOLLAND went over all the obfervation s of Lord Melville, and approved entirely of the moo)), flattment made by his Noble Friend, who opened this Debate. He vindicated the condo& of the late Adminifi ration, and particularly on the fut,j e a of the Catholic:.—U: thought that the manner in which the Noble Vircoont bad fpc,ken of Mr. Pia, and had aimed at prang him, had pronou toed on the charatter of that Mc Right Hon. Gen , :ontaii the revereff he could offer ; that he kad gone a fecund time into office, retaining his miginai fenti. ments in favour of the Catholics, and vet with otoro4 and determination never to propof: it in Pailiamett. That Noble Vifrount roighthe a, well acquainted ;ili a the fources of the falfe colouring of the Cabincr Minitlers, puhlilited in a Morning Newfooper, was with the private determination of Mr. ; cut hitafclf and his Noble Friends were not in the habit of difregarding their Pledges, as the Noble Vifeount and his Ft iends had been ; and, therefore, they thought themfelves bound to bring forward this fubjett. he thought he fhould (brink from his duty, if he had not come forward to affiff in the proteCtion of church and late, at this momentous crifis. He felt as (irony. ly as the Noble Earon the neceflity of calling forth the (lrength of the empire; but he did not confider this meafure conducive to its vigour, fecurity, or report. Lord NIO IRA faid, it was admitted on all hands, that there had been a mifconception ; but what the. Noble Lord had obfervcd. did not apply ; he had no. . ticed very (lightly the ultimate iffue upon which Ad miniftration were to (land or fall. The Noble Se cretary laid, that in order to fhew the impropriety of a pledge, we ought to Rate the exigency for the me;, Pure we recommended. Did the Noble Secretary know, that we might violate the oath of office, wets we to [fate what he required ? Even a curfory view of the state of Ireland would be fufficient to fhew the matt argent neceflity for fome conciliatory tneafures. He would lay,• that the (late of that country very materially affeCteel, not only the power and glory, bat the very exiffence of the Britith empire. His no tions of toleration were much more enlarged than thole he had heard that night—that unneceffarily no man fhould he precluded from the fervice of the State; who contributed to its foppott, whore property and life. were the pledges he gave for its prefervation, Thera were certainly great fundamental laws; but wool f the Noble Secretary contend, that there were to be no modifications of thefe? For what pnrpole was the Legiflative body afrembled, if not to accom mndate the law to the cireum ances of the times? With regard to the policy of the mefrage, w increaring our national force, the population of Ireland, pro. peily encouraged, ought to produce too,ooo difpor able troops in addition to thole already engaged. This alone, feparately regarded, would be an impora tAtt confequence of manifeffing that friendly difpo- fition. Why was the fuperabundaat population 1011, inttead of being employed in angorent the national firength ? It was becaufe the Gentry of Ireland, and the Catholic Pt iellhood,woold to , t influence the youth to devote their valour to the fervi:e of their country uro.ler the mortifications to which they would be es. poled. After (hawing a con-y:,rifon between the tae Bill, and the general emancipation formerly propolei, and pointing out the dreadful confequences he appo !tended if the people of Ireland were not traoquillifed, his Lordfhip concluded'as follows—" I dray thet I have any difoofition to [land at iffue with his Majeliy on ;his queltinn—l am grateful for hi, condefc.Flion and kiodnef, towards tr e, and I am fore he IS. ac. Lusted by the moll confcientious motives in what he had, done. I hope Noble Lords will alfo acquit us, and will not thick we ought to have enteredinto any pledges, or that we have negletted to do what, as upright men, we ought to has e performed." • Lord MELVILLE (from the Mitailletial bench,) expreffed his fatisfaCti , n that the tlifeuffion had beta entered cn, and he wifhed that every petfon ftom one end of the illand to the other, fhould be informed of the true (late of the queflion. An illufitious pen fon (Mr. Pitt) had been alluded to; he joined from the very bottom of his heart in all the praife which had been bellowed, and fo ardent was his attachment to the opinions of that great man, that he wifhed to make them the polar [tar of his life. He would now advert to a part of the condo& of that eminent cha reefer. In the year 18ot, he withdrew from thefer vice of his Majetfy, becaufe he then thought that be could not confcientioufly remain in office without permitlion to introduce the Catholic quetlion to the attention of his Sovereign, which he then thought of much importance. But it was a notorious faO, with which the Noble Baron could not be unacquainted , that having fully weighed the confequences in his retirement ; having alfo refleeed on the rooted convic tion of his Majelly on that fitbjeo, long before became again into power, he faid, that whether in or out of office he would never diamb again the feelings of his Sovereign on that fubjett. Was he (Lord Melville) r ) e e fi e nt u r e inthweno,ffiteheltktnhoewiNngobilheatßmarro.npftLt hadoul et i c ra b , m bm a tte d n e 7 f i a llP c e h a declaration, and did he differ from his i p ti r s ed ea ec th efr o o f r o f m o c w e, id o e r l t y n a y s an to p f e mp l o e fe w i i t th in h c i o s n p fi u to enter into the fame pledge? Mr. Pitt adled ahel in inet d dw i l ; oppolition to his own judgment, and to the impulfe of his feelings. He thought that it was his duty to coat* the fenfibility of a perfon, whore mind and in clinations it was peculiarly bis deity to fiudy, at,d he did not diautb the retook of his Royal Mailer by preffing the fubjeCt. It was urged, that there we late was an abfolute neceflity for this meafure ; and that the Minifters were made acquainted with circumfiances which their duty to the Crown would not admit them to dirclore. Was then this Bill propoled under cir cteugmrialyanocefsthoef imperious anndectemaidtyth,eay agreedffeoing th re linquilh it ? They had abandoned it, and it was ob. urgency vious therefore, that no fuels controuling toe