Star. — London, England, 1819-12-22 00:00:00

I. f ( !4 ,~ - ‘! . i. !El f • ' tARLIAMEAiTARY PROCEEDINGS. • v ! ' - I ;;If. • .1 i • ♦I ii ; i Z HOUSE OF LORDS, DECEMBER 21. Mr. BZOOMS brought up the Indictment Traverse Bill from the Mouse ;A Corourons with Amendments, which, on the mo tion of the LostyCuatiaactoa' were agreed to, after a few words from Loan HOLLMIDi who e xpressed his entire approba tion of thent,.titoogh ,he professed bitnself most hostile to the other measures wiM-which the 1341 had originated. 2112111T1002 MEETINGS BILL. This Bill being read a third time, and some ver bal Amendments agreed to, . The Earl of LIVERPOOL moved that it do now paa, upon which Lord ERSKINE rose, and said, he despaired of making any impression pm Noble. Lords opposite, by any objections he. could make to the measure now under consideration. He knew it had so bound up their under , tandirigs, that it rendered them imper tious.to any arg uments ; yet still he hacht duty to Perform to the Public, and that should lead high to oppose the Bill even in this most hopeless stage. It . appeared that Meetin?s had been held which were dangerOus to the public peace, at which persons as sembled In - Military - array, attended by flags, ban ners, and emblems of sedition; and called by per sons who had aio right . whatevir ;re do so. But he would ask, were not the other measuits which had been enacted amply sufficient to remedy those evils, without resorting to the obnoxious provisions con tained in this Bill? It was of the greatest importance that the Legislature Ogulkadhere as closely as pos sible to the old *protecting laws of the realm, and had the amendment of his - Noble Friend (Earl Grey), whom he regretted not to see now in his-place, been adopted, we should have a ParliaMent unanimous in putting down the evil, and one that would iadifce'a confidence commensurate with -its extent—(Hear, hear). • He would not concede the power which this Bill provided to arty individual whatever —no, not even to his Noble and Learned - Friend on the Wool sack, high as the opinion was -which he entertained of his integrity and talents. No, he would repeat it, he wouhi not give him such power for a single hour, though he believed him to 'be an Angel from HEAVEN. and that' he saw the wings peeping out from under his gown !--:(A tarter). The gteat disease which threatened the body politic was The distrust of • the People in those by-whoin they are governed. And had the people nb'grievances tocomplain of, or were all their complaints without foundation? Yes, they had, he would say, many grievances . to complain'of, a 14 it was too much to charge them with sedition, if they ventured honestly to declare their sentiments on the occasion. lie should nordetaln their Lordships' by reverting to the causes of the discontent which was now so general, but it was to be chiefly found in a protracted war of twenty-four years duration, which had been carried on without any just or rea sonable object. He had himself opposed the princi ple upon which •this war had been continued, and shoukl not charge persons with being seditious who held 'precisely the same sentiments. The Noble Lord t',en adverted to the subject of Universal Suffrage, and read a letter of Horne Tooke's, written in 17n, to shear that it was incompatible with just maxims of jurisprudence. He thought, however, that the People ought not, on that account, to be precluded from expecting a salutary improvement in the repre sentative system, and be expressed his obligation to . Lord John Russell for what he had done towards it in the other House of Parliament. Referring to the period of 1795, he contended that there was then, in the language of Mr. Burke, " a more pestilential blast of libels than at present," and at that period the circumstances of the times were essentially dif ferent. and might warrant measures of greaterseve rity than ought now to be enacted, as there existed a determined conspiracy to overthrow the Govern ?tient. He was not prepared to defend the conduct of Mr. Hunt, hut he cookd not help saying, that his arrest was illegal, because no 'riot had occurred at the time it took place. Whatever might be the ex tr..nt to which disturbances were carried in particular districts, lie still maintained that the great majority of the People were sound and loyal, and believing them to be so, he should oppose the Bill. The Earl of DARNLEY expressed his satisfaction that improvements had been made in the obnoxious measures which the Government had proposed, and repeated his opinion that the necessity of them would have been precluded had the existing laws been duly administered. He was satisfied, at the same time, that such Meetings as the one held at Manchester, ought not to be tolerated, as the conse quence must be the total subversion of all Govern- . ment. Yet the People were justly indignant that no 'itluiry had been instituted into the proceedings at Manchester, while the Ministers pertinaciously re- Ilised . it. With revect to Annual Parliaments and Universal Suffrage, y he was convinced their effect must be -to create universal- anarchy ; though the Government ought not, on that account, to adhere to abuses, or oppose such a system of moderiite arid rational Reform, as he was convinced would satisfy the great mass of the People. Lord ELLENBOROUGH, as having suggested sortie Amendments in this Bill, aud the others that had recently come before the House, and as having voted in support of the measures generally, while he meant to give his support to the present one, was anxious t. explain to their Lordships the motives by which he had felt himself actuated. No individual could be more fully convinced than he was, that the danger with which the country was threatened re quired to be met with firmness ; but the great object of the new measures was to secure that union so ne cessary among all classes, -and this' desirable end could be attained only by dealing- as gently and fa- 1 vourably as was consistent with die peculiar nature of those circumstances in which the country was placed. The great evil was, that at present the right of Meeting was not free, because persons intruded `themselves who were utter strangers, and eould have nOtoncern xvhatever in the business to be discussed. Yet every period'of our history afforded 'abundant , iproofs of the advantages derivable from the right of the People to meet freely. It was this right which formed the strength upon which the whole fabric of could the it cherished -independ , was of the afforded to accurate esti and thereby adopting measures accordingly. But the right of meeting freely could ndt be consistint with such Meetings as:those at Manchester and Newcastle, where the People were out-voted by large masses of disaffected persons. It was very. easy for such a small minority of persons so to intrude themselves as to -give the semblance of numbers to ,their party, while the sense of the People, generally, could not be taken. It was now to be considered what Meetings , were to be prevented by this Bill, and what Meet ings it left untouched. It did not in any respect in terfere with these Meetings which the Constitution recognized. But What Meetings did it prevent ? It prevented Meetings similar to those at Manchester and Newcastle, where there was a shew of intimida tion, by the display of physical force—( Hear, hear). The Noble Lord concluded by urging the necessity of instituting a strict inquiry into the causes of the existing discontents. Earl GROSVENOR said, he held in his hand a Petition from the inhabitants of the City of West minster, praying that they might be exempt from the operation of the Bill. A Noble Earl opposite, (Harrowby) had, on, a former night, contrasted the propriety of their conduct with that by which other popular assemblies were marked ; and they might fairly presume, with such testimony in their favour, to send the Petition, which he had to submit, to their Lordships. (Here Lord* HARROWIIif intimated his dissent from the assertion made by the Noble Ear}). It appeared that the Noble President . of the Council did not admit ,havin*. paid any such tribute to the inhabitants of Wiivninster, iet thiy might be per fectly justified in sending this Petition, independently of it ; and it was his intention to move, as an Amendment, that the further consideration of the Bill be adjourned, for 44.0rpose of:adding a clause to it by way of rider, . . The Earl of LI VERPOOVrose to order, and said, that the Noble Earl could not move such an Amendment, though he might make one when the question was put on the - motion before the House, which was, that this Bill do pass. Lord HOLLAND said, it was competent to his Noble Friend to. move, as an Amendment, that the debate be adjourned, for the purpose of inquiring into the merits of the Petition. The Earl of LIVERPOOL observed, that the Amendment, if so moved, would certainly . have been in order. The LORD .CHANCELLOII; upon the point of order, agreed with his Noble Friend. The stage was gone by when the introduction of a clause could be moved. The present question was merely for the passing of the Bill. The debate might be adjourned, but not for the introduction of any clause whatever. The Noble Earl might move an adjournment of the debate; but even if that were agreed to, it could have no influence on the ulterior question. Earl GROSVENOR again stated the course he meant . to have adopted, had their Lortiships permit ted it, which was to have moved for an adjournment of the debate, for the purpose of examining the con tents of the parchment which he held in his hand. The people of Westminster hid claims to exemption which others had not-4°r •they had at all times be haved at their Meetings in a constitutional manner. The Noble Earl again adverted to some observations which had bccn made cn the subject on a former night, by a Noble Earl whom he saw in his place. The Earl of H A It ROW BY was against receiving the Petition, as it ought 'to have been presented at an earlier stage of the proceedings. He could appeal to those Who had heard him on a previous night, to say if any thing which had fallen from him _could bear the interpretation given to it by the Noble Earl. He could not T;ow bring to mind what he 'did say, but be knew very well what he did not say. With , respect to those Meetings recently held in Westmin ster, they were altogether different from those held at a former period. They were nbt then convene in the open air, but in Westminster Hall, and none had a right to speak but those who paid taxes. Earl GROSVENOR said, he should not press for the clause, or rider, he had alleded to. The Earl of 13LESSINGTON said, that when be pressed their Lordships to exempt Ireland from the operation of this Bill, he did so under an impression that tbe , measure was not in any re Tect qualified for Ireland. Notwithstanding all the grievances, the fa mine, and the oppression which Ireland had laboured under ; and notwithstanding that Act, which he should ever contemplate with horror—he meant the Union Act—notwithstanding all those Acts, that Country was still tranquil, and *acknowledged to be so by Ministers ; yet why should Ministers insist on extending this Bill to Ireland, where nothing occur red that could justify the measure ? At the time of the Union, promises had been made to Ireland which were since broken : it was promised to the Protestants that no concession should be made to the Catholics; and a promi s e was secretly held out to the Catholics, that they should be emancipated ; all this was done to obtain their consent to the Union ; and after the Union was obtained, the .promises were no longer thought of. This was another great cause of discon tent in Ireland. There was one cther point to which he would allude—and that was the oppression. aris ing from the still-fine system. Now, as to the Bill before the House, it would give rise to nothing but corruption and abuses ; apd in Ireland, would have no other effect than that of producing confusion, bloodshed, and ruin. As, however, he could not now expect to induce their Lordships to make any altera tion in this Bill, he - gave notice, that shortly after the recess, he should move for . the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the'itate of Ireland. The Earl of LIVERPOOL felt it necessary to say a few words in reply to what had fallen from the Noble Earl, respecting Ireland. It was admitted by all persons, that this Bill could not operate to the prejudice of Ireland. With regard to the Act of Union, he would ask the Noble Earl, Whether, at this time of day, it was a fit subject to be brought for ward for discussion ? He was at a loss to know where the Noble Earl obtained his information re specting breaches of promises to the Catholi cs an d Protestants of Ireland; but he could assure the No ble Earl,'that fortunately there was a document now in existence, which was a complete record of all that had passed on the subject of the Union. It was the speech of the Right Honourable Gentleman who had first prOposed the Union—the speech which he made on that occasion—and•which had been revised by himself (the Earl of Liverpool). In this speech there was not one word of any promise to any piety is Ireland; the proposer of the Union sot only btu out no - promise, but he disclaimed doff% so. • With re gard to the assertion, that this Country had done no thing for Ireland, be wished the Noble Earl to look at the Journals of the House, and he would see that this Country had taken upon herself the whole debt of Ireland, which the latter Country was bound to pro vide for; and the Noble Earl would also find, that Ireland had never been burthened with the Property tax during the whole time that the tax was paid by England. With regard to the still system, it was not his intention at this time to enter into the question, whether the system was good or bad. But he must observe, that at the time when his Right Honourable Friend, who was now Master of the Mint, during his Administration in Ireland, moved for the repeal, of that system, the whole body of Irish Members called loudly for its re-enactment; and, therefore, it could not be such a system of oppre*ion as was de scribed by the Noble Earl. The Earl of BLESSINGTON, in explanation, said, that the quantity of property expended in this Country by Irish Gentlemen, since the Union, to gether with the discount of sixteen or seventeen per cent. paid on the same, was equivalent to a Property tax in Ireland. With regard to still fines, he differed on that subject from other Irish Gentlemen. . The Bill was then passed. The Irish Elections Bill went through a Corn mittee.—Adjourned at Eight o'Clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS Mr. MA BERL Y gave notice, that he would to-morrow move for Papers shewing die total amount of the Revenue of Oreat Britain, from the sth January to the stlr October, in the pre sent year; also, for an account of the sums paid on the new duties, and for a long series of financial documents which he enumerated. He also gave notice, that immediately after the recess be would move for leave to bring in a Bill to continue the Duties on Exported Linen, which would expire in March, 1820. Mr. LYTTLETON gave notice, that he would to-morrow move for leave to bring in a Bill similar to that which he had introduced in the last &ohm of Parliament, to prevent unskil ful persons from acting as _Conveyancers. He did not propose to proceed with the Bill before the Holidays. He wished to be allowed to bring it in, that it might be printed, end left opal for the consideration of Members during the recess. Mr. LUSHTNGTON presented certain Papers ordered by the House, sbewing the amount of the Funded and Unfunded Debt, and the Capital crcated.—Ordered to ha on the table. COURT OT EXCHEQUER. The CHAN C ELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose, pursuant to the notice that he had given on the pre ceding day, to move for leave to bring in a Bill for the better securing of Monies and Effects paid into the Court of Exchequer. The subject had beets al ready more than once before the House, and being one of great importance, he thought it would be de sirable to bring in the Bill now, that it might be read a first and second time, printed, and then left open for consideration till after the Holidays. He pro posed by this Bill to make an arrangement in the Court of Exchequer similar to that which had given such great satisfaction in the Court of Chancery. The piovisisns of the Bill, when understood, would, he thought; meet with the general approbation of the House. It went to appoint an Accountant-General and two Masters, who were to take account of all Monies and Effects paid in on account of suitors in the Court of Eichequhr. The details of the Bill, however, would best explain the particular provisions which were thought desirable, and he should there fore confine himself to moving for leave to bring in a Bill for the better securing Monies and Effects be longing to suitors in the Court of Exchequer, and for appointing an Accountant-General and two Masters to the said Court. Mr. CALCRAFT wished to know how the Officers to be appointed were intended to be paid ? He hoped they were not to look for their emoluments from di viding the brokerage of the Court, as was done in the Court of Chancery. If the Officers in question were necessary, they aught to -have proper salaries al lowed them, and if the brokerage of the Court could be done for less than the usual charges, the suitors, ought to have the benefit of the dimi n i s hed ex p ense .l The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, as the Bill 'stood at present, the Masters and , the Accountant were to be paid partly by salaries, and partly by certain fees which were to be allowed them. The salaries were to be paid out of what was called the dead money of the Court, and would thus cause no expense to hethrown on the Public. Mr. CALCRAFT had nothing to object to the ge neral plan of the measure. To him it appeared a' very proper one, and he was only surprised that it had not been sooner resorted to, All he meant to say was this, that some fixed salary ought to be granted to the Accountant, and he ought not to be compelled to look for his remuneration,, as the Ac countant-General of the Court of Chancery did, by dividing profits with the Broker of the Court. It would, in his opinion, be much better to give them salaries at once, than to have recourse to such an ob jectionable mode of paying - for their services. Sir J. GRAHAM was extremely anxious that the Bill should be brought in, and that it should pass. Leave was given to bring in the Bill. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER im mediately brought it in, and it was read a first, and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow. THE NATIONAL DEBT AND FRIENDLY SOCIETIES.' . Mr. BOOTLE WILBRAHAM seeing a Right Honourable Friend of his in his place, wished to ask him a question, which, however odd and absurd it might seem, it was of considerable importance that he should answer. That an answer should be given was of great importance to the labouring part of the population in Lancashire. where a report had been industriously circulated, that it was the intention of Government to take the money belonging to the Savings Banks and the Friendly Societies, in order to apply it towards paying off the National Debt— (A laugh).—Absurd as this story was, it had been malignantly sent abroad, and it had seen unfortu nately caught up by Many persons who were igno rant of the fact, that Government had not the power, ifit had the inclination, t o a ppl y t h e F un d s a ll u d e d to in any such manner. The circulation of this calumny had caused the breaking up of many Friendly Societies—had induced others to draw their money out of the Savings Banks, and had, in short. pro duced consequences that were seriously injurious to that part of the country of which he had chore parti cularly spokes. For himself, it was unnecessary that he should state that he was quite aware that couldlare no intention of attempting any thing of that kind. lie itisew whenee.ile-story had ptoceedcd—he knew that it had been invented and circulated by interested individuals to fie -ward o wn mischievous views. The tale, however, seemed to receive a colouring from the provi"" tained in an Act of the last year regulating Banks, which went to authorize certain payment be made to the Commissioners for Redeemin,, National Debt. He knew that this ought rot 7 viewed with suspicion, and he had denied 1 vernment had any intention of touching the Fin, question, but his denial passed for nothing therefore he hoped the Chancellor of the EX would have no objection to answer the I which he thought it right to ask, namely, it was the intention of Government to appr, the monies deposited in Savings Banks, and belonging to Friendly Societies, to pay off tional Debt? . - The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER that, even after the experience he had of the t cessary and absurd speculations which had bee n seminated in the country from time to time, be not prepared to expect such aquestion as tle , put by his Honourable Friend.' There was foundation even for publishing - su( cause every one knew that the Finn Societies, and of the Savings 8.% wholly separate from the general so that if the Treasury had the inc priate these Funds to the pigment had not the power to do so. Mr. BROUGHAM remarked, Gentleman might have the consolation that his Majesty's Government, if ct-' not calumniated alone. The Com. tion had its motives misrepresented 1, and, among other things, it was said they wished to seize on the Funds of • blishments, into the abuses of whi rected to inquire ; and it was furtl their object to turn the two Universii bchoels! He hoped the Right Hr man would not calculate on putting mistatement which had been made, said, as the calumny to which h though refuted five hundred times. sent abroad again as industriously first invented. "The CHANCELLOR of the EV be.had no doubt but the delusion tio•zed by the disavowal he had ju larly when it was coupled with t fact, that the payment of the Di Funds are not 'delayed for a single . Mr. CALC4AFT begged to rem. , Was less likely than that there shoal, whatever payable towards-the extin( We had last year a Sinking Fund bet for the present year we had only even that sum, it was generally.berieved; ,be made available to its legitimate in fact, nothing whatever could te , the reduction 'of the Debt. The CHANCELLOR of the, could assure the House, that no take place in the plan of financial lie had submitted to the House last Mr. CALCRAFT said he lai.exqOliel.. hear from the Chancellor of the txcheqe in assurance' that. the expectations gave rise last Session, would be• Tea: sent-year,(Hear, hear). Sir W. DE CRESifiGNY hoped would be immediately submitted the liquidation of the national Deh le had a considerable stakeldthe Willingly would he sacrifice a share service of the Nation. ORANGEMEN IN LIViRPOO' Mr. CANNING toil 'this : (Ippon the attention of the House to a stater time since by an Honourable . MemL and which statement being particular, him (Mr. Cannirig), he thought' that bent on him to make some incpekiLinte ,stances of it. The Honourable M k net), in prefacing his metionfor a Co, Distresses of the Manufacturing Distric, that a body of Orangemen, in.Livr brated the anniversary of the battle that town, with certain rites and had dressed an effigy of a Pope, Cardinal, marched them in - procession, afterwards stripped off the clothes ar After this Ceremony, the Hon. Mr. there was found a Clergyman who prea, to them. This was the statement. Nc, made, he had received a letter from the was alluded to in this statement : • he positively denied most of the presented to have taken place on that acknowledged he did preach a sem, bled number of persons on the anni tle of the Boyne, but in doing so, than ordinary courtesy obliged him mon, however, was far from being tory nature, which seemed to have to it. Perhaps the character of the be best understood by the text of which it was fOunded. The text was ehell all men know that yeare my disciples, lifse to another." Such a text as this been a guarantee against the suspici_ mon was intended to inflame animosities, gious or political. He now had to -* Clergyman was a young member of character was most respectable. Mr. BENNET expressed his thl I Honourable Gentleman for the lib era l Manner in which he had introduced the attention of the House. The to looking to the report of his speech alluded to he found that language bated to him, in this particular statement, ( never used. He 'did not say, that sion entered the church, and after mock, habits were committed to the Clergyman was found who preached persona assembled. He had said, de was attended by the most insulting Catholic religion—that there were es the priscession, which were afterwards it etes not denied that the Clergyman sermon to a society of, the description to. society, it should be remembered, friends; or for the promotion of friendshir molly, bet - whoa avowed object was ' proms or me auvantages oenvaure rrons w the People to meet freely. It was this ri - „ formed the strength upon which the whole • the Constitution rested ; nor without it last war have terminated successfully, for it ' , in the people a bold and vigorous spirit of ence. And the 'preservation of this right I 4'" greatsst importance to Parliament, for it a : both Houses the means of forming an acc t mate of the opinions of the People, an , x' , ... i oisrt efi t i, o oet ttuhphe f gero o dho i vv w Eteein l a xis eicoec : h:tn. orn: go d c i regulating Sri, to ertain payments :nee D id denied that • • ' thing the Funds ;11.k for nothing, a gr. ;wer the quest: . r , namely, wh e t v e flt to approy n i Banks, and th, n I pay off the cl • et ( CHEQUER II pi had of the um ies, hich had been ,r 11 to to time, be t fight !stion as that r orn There was i uch a rumour, ', ite ads of the Frien. er Banks, mere Funds of the & a , 7411 clination to a rr . in : of the Debt, in jec the Right H ,e ation of knot ic. .d : calumniated, nt Imittee on Ed u , din the same wa id said of. them. th , m; of the several Zs., ere hick they were o th irther s:aced to' • a Tsities into Chi th ionottrable Gev:i. du ag down the ri!: - or , e, by what he 1-a un he had ol:ud.. , r nes, had still ~. ,y as when i; r: 11.1 .T )(CHEQUER s,i, t would be fully . just given, panic le .the unquestio : tal Dividends on ~ tj e day. mark, that ice , : Ili ould be any Fu.. L inction of the rr d of 1215,000,tc, lj £3,000;000, at. e elieved,:`,Wc2ldn. .'n at übjees—,so than Ipe , rya, twit-. ••• riov :.• . e. 40E0 1 ' o aeviation wee L operations, ; lit it 'Session. p Ex equer 4 — We' .him tY baPPY ions to which . • no realitedin the • !to ed that some pia 7; I to the House ft) leht. For his ran, • Country, btit tne' re of it tc:varila POOL. ortunity of tement made sere tuber (Mr. Benne., ,e alley addrcised to I hat it Vas ina-s:- r.itigto * the, ci ram- Ketviter (Mr. Rea- C'irtnmittee on the f! nstricts, had stated iverpool, had tele- tle of the Boyne, is I ceremonies—they I reachedl, s a e i a o n mn o d db , e rb a a n n u drocnt he continued, ndlatr of a sermon: t tnh t t Now, since this was tl the Clergyman who c and in this letter 1. circumstances re- r that occasion. lie I rmon to an assem- f iversary of the bat- he went no farther nto do. The ser• ; of that inflamora- ye been attributed to discourse wouid of Scripture upon ras this—" By this ilye havelou is must surely have iicion that the ser• tosities, either reli• o observe, that the of the order. Hs tanks to the Right iberal and candid :ed this subject to truth was, that is ch on the occasion a ag rtt aem e thft h eeenr ad utt,hn b;e wquhp n eirc a oh t ac tri es.nh, ; i the flames there, a ed a sermon to tne that the procession tg mockery of t:.: r ensigns used In ards burned. BA 'man did preach ion he had alluded aembered, not of 7riendship and hat - - was to perpet•ate