Star. — London, England, 1811-06-19 00:00:00

, . waned of the Sovereign in the country, they fell very short. He again de 'est these imputed dnc.l precated the conduct of their leaders, in coming for .., !" ahe British Govern-1 ward at such a p eriod as the p resent, when tile whole ....,. , seie exceptidt... hwere omitted in thel powers.of the Constitution were not complete. He ' . oaths of the .Irish Prelate's; ' ; ,M-weirds of our own did not s mean to say there existed any practical deft; • , Statute Book in the Act of 1778 ; the oaths of alle: tiency; but still one great branch of the Government _glance and fidelity, 'which under the Acts. of 1774 was administered by substitution. It was neither and MS, were freely taktn by all the Irish Catholics: proper nor decorous to come forward under sties cir . compared to these, what were the weak and flimsy cumstances. He lamented that their conduct should. pretexts advanced against them ?. Were the argu. impose the painful duty on him in thus expressing I moos against the Catholics to be numbered, and not himself; they had also imposed a painfultaskupon their to be weighed, their case would he desperate indeed! Lordships. With such sentiments, such convictionarte But what shadow of pretext existed of continuing the he felt upon this important subject, he must oppose thit , Penal Code for the supposed security of the Protes- motion of the Noble Earl, convinced that agreeing to tent Establishment ? The principle point insisted on it, noder the present circumstances, would eventually was the withheld Veto which was said to clash with tend to destroy the fabric of that Constitution and the King's supremacy as head of the Church; but Government,which they professed somuchto venerate. when this proposition was fairly and dispassionately The Marquis of DOWNSHI RE strenuously supa examined, it would he found far otherwise, and that ported the Motion, the propriety of which he thought -this formidable obj...etion rested upon no • rational peculiarly enforced by the circumstances of the times foundation. The question was, in fact, the leaving I and above all by the war in the Peninsula, where his the spiritual controul over the Irish Catholic Church countrymen, the sans, brothers, and dearest relatives in the hands of a foreign power. Bet this had noiof the Petitioners, were generously and nobly sheds connection with the King's supremacy, and it would I ding their blood in defence of that Constitution to go loss to affect it than what was done daily with re- ! which it was only asked to admit them to a common • spect to the h i re patronage of the Church, not only share. i with respect to his Majesty, but even to every Protes- The Marquis of LANSDOWNE contended that' tart Bish p in his diocese. Nay, evert the actual the Catholic disabilities formed no part of the Consti appointment of one of are Protestant Bishops is vest- tution of this country. It was true that motives of ' ed in one of his Majesty's subjects, viz. the Bishop of expediency had, at particular times of danger, long Soder and Man. His Lordship adduced a variety of since, rendered it necessary to suspend the rights of i reasoning in support of these positions, and proceeded the Catholics ' • but that never ought to be done after to observe that an abandonment of the principle on the danger ha d vanished. Those principles, partied the p irt ei,f, the Catholics, on which the Sovereign larly dan g erous, which had been imputed to the Ca-i Pon:iff, a ds the individual representing the Spiritual tholics, had been disavowed by them. Nay, they. Head of their Church, in unity, would be as aban- had been disavowed in France 150 years ago ; and, donment of the religion of their forefathers, and in above all, even by the Pope himself. Where, then, which their earnest and sincere continuance An the ' was the use of applying the exploded opinions of cause of these exclusions and disabilities, of which times long past to the present Catholics? He would they so justly complain. He defended the character.' ask which of the great changes, which had lately and conduct of the Irish Catholic Prelacy, as irre. taken place on the Continent of Europe, had been proachable and blameless, during three successive re. I effected or arrested by the power of the Pope ?—He hellions, during periods of war and peace ! He was . thought this question came every year before the satisfied that if their Lordships would ge into a Corn. i House in the shape of a fresh question, because every mittee, the Catholics could relieve the apprehensions , year it was bringing with it fresb proofs of the loyalty of these who feared for the Clerical establishments the and affection of the Catholics of Ireland t o the Con effect sof a withheld Veto; or, of any political foreign ' stitution, and o? their usefulness to the State. He interference in their ecclesiastical arrangements. He I could not think but that the Catholics would feel it was willed all these would be purely domestic. His' to be their interest to guard against any foreign in-- Lordship then passed on to a brief consideration of fluence, in the nomination of the heads of their Church; the measure of the ibiterchange of the national militias, and also that their Lordships would take care not to .as far as it WAS referable to the subject under consi- grant this great boon without exacting sufficient secu deration ; and though he approved the measure in , rity from the Catholics against such foreign influe nce. other points of view, as tending to add to the military I This was only to be done in the Committee ; and he power of the empire, yet, as he did not conceive the thought something ought to be done for the Catholics freedom of religious worship adequately secured to towards the completion of the great measure of union . the C rtholic under it, he disapproved the measure.— between the two countries. The motion had his en-' He did not think the orders issued by Commanders in tire concurrence. Chief a sufficient security. He referred to some cases, Lord REDESDALE rose, and conceiving him. one particularly occurring lately at Woolwich, where, self personally alluded to in a part of Lord Donouglo; he learned, an artillery-man was put in confinement more's speech entered into ajustification of his conduct for refusing to attend a Protestant place of Worship. while in Ireland. He then spoke against the question He was adverse to the freedom of religious worship as a political one, and contended that no pledge had . being rendered dependent upon military orders. After been given at the Union, and used a variety of argu some further observations upon this part of the sub- ments to prove the inadmissibility of Catholics to the ject, the Noble Earl concluded an eloquent and Inge- Ministerial situations. nious speech by moving—o That this Petition be re- Lord DONOUGHMORE explained. ferred to the consideration of a Committee." The Bishop of NORWICH urged the expediency On the question being put, and policy of conciliating the minds of the people in The Earl of LONGFORD rose, and delivered his gratifying their reasonable expectations. It had been] sentiments at some length against the positions and the fashion of late, to accuse those who advocated the arguments of the last speaker. The more he had cause of the Roman Catholics, as men who did not considered the question before their Lordships, and understand the value of the interests of the Established . the more he attended to the circumstances accompa- Church : he, therefore, felt himself called upon to say nying it, the more he was convinced in his own mind a few words in reply to those unfounded and injuri. of the justice and reasonableness of the objections he ous opinions. He considered the Roman Catholics as entertained. He more especially felt an objection to numerous and respectable a body of men as ever lived the time in which it was thought proper , by tho se and in any other civilized nation the y would. hay; who directed the affairs of the Catholics, to come for- been admitted to those rights which they claim with ward to the legislature, when the country was so unfit- out any of that bigotry, distrust, and jealousy, which veurably circumstanced in that respect as at present. so unhappily existed in this country. It had been 'l'he conduct of these persons to whom he alluded, stated that he had inconsistently differed from the was far from being such as tended to the peace and great body of the Established Church upon this sub- , . harmony of Ireland ; on the contrary, he thought it , ject—that he differed from those around him was tended to promote distrust and dissension , and to sow true, that he did it with sincere regret was also most jealousies and alarms in the minds and hearts of the true, for no man could willingly differ from those wise people. He differed from the Noble Earl as to the and good men who were of the same professino with sentiments he expressed respecting the question of the himself ; it was some consolation, however, that if he ',Veto, and with regard to the line of conduct most differed with them, he agreed with many of those fitting to be.pursued on such an occasion, and in such great and wise characters who were favourable to the -a crisis. He thought it incumbent on the Governing measure ;in their opinions be most heartily coincided. Powers, as far as human means or human powers al- He conceived that a union of heart and hand was lowed it, to exert those powers for the preservation . loudly called for—that union which was the bond of and tranquillity of the governed. He was at a loss peace, security and prosperity ! to know how the effects of a foreign influence was to The Earl of BUCKINGHAMSHIRE thought that be prevented in Ireland, by means of what the Catho- if the conduct of the Roman Catholics for the last ten lit advocates contended for, if a controuling power years was any ground for strengthening their claim, were not to be vested in the legitimate Government the same argument might apply to those who called of the country. Nor had he much hopes from that for Parliamentary Reform and universal represents. domestic system of arrangement, in those respects, tion ; but the grounds upon which he should always which the Noble Earl laid so much stress on. It resist these claims were, that the Roman Catholics was well known how easily a factious and turbulent continued to admit a foreign supremacy in esslesias person could act on such occasions, in a way so as to tical affairs. produce the most lamentable consequences. They had seen more than once how far the spirit of legisla- . The Earl of ABERDEEN, considering the situa. tore regulations could be violated, without touching tom of the country, thought there never was a time on the letter, so as to be amenable to their provisions! so wholly unseasonable as the present ; he should, - ' the Catholics could rati o nal] • therefore, vote against the . measure. - ',NCER - himself the anxious He could not see how _ complain in such A case. If they sought for equal privileges with their Protestant fellow-subjects, and \lint fi their Earl SPE_ professed friend of the petition. Earl CAMDEN shortly opposed the measure. ELLO' withhei a necessary contrnuling power from common Sovereign, it could not be for placing them selves on an equality, hut in a state of superiority.— (Hear, hear, hear.) —This position he thought incon trovertible. In ‘A hat he said, be meant not the least reflection on the great body of the Irish Catholics, among whom were many he not only highly respect ed, but was in habits of intimacy and friendship with, but he referred merely to those who conducted their affairs, those wlm called themselves the Committee, whose conduct, as he had said, was any thing but what was likely to establish union and harmony in the country. His Lordship referred to some of their proceedings, They had thought proper to vote their *nits to a person of the name of W. Cobbett, and another of the name of P. Finnerty !--while they cesimsred some of the highest official and judkial cha racters in the conn:ry, and some of the most respect. able of their own body, particularly a Nobleman who had evinced himself friendly to the Union, and etchers who set their face against their endeavours to effect the removal of the Viceroy.' The Noble Earl had greatly over-rated the numbers, powers, and cowl sequence of the Catholic inhabitants of Ireland,— They formed a great majority of the population, it Was cruel but with respect to property and influence HOME OP COMMONS. Mr. MARTIN presented the Second Report on Sinecure O. en, and Mr. TAYLOR presented the. Report on delay of slits in Chantey, both nI which were ordered to lie on the table. The Birth and Burial Register Bill was read a first, and ordered to be reel a second time to-morrow. A new writ was ordered to be issu ed f or the Borough of Abing don, in the county of Bucks, in the room of Mr. Bowyer, who has accepted the Chiltern Hundreds. Lord FOLK ES TONE presented a petition from John Drakard, printer and publisher of the Stamford news, praying fora reduce. mem of his sentence.—Ordered so lie on the table. Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE rose, pursuant to notice, respecting petitions for private bills ; and moved, that it be a standing order • of that House " That all petitions be presented on or before the first Friday, after the first fourteen days sitting in any Session of Parliament." • He also moved—" That all standing orders of that Home he referred to a Select Committee." Sir JAMES GRAHAM and Sir PETER MURRAY sup ported it. Mr. SIMEON thought the time too short, and anticipated many inconveniences which might arise, and wished the time ape .cified to be extended a week at least. After a GA" words from the 5 . , Mr. Ross, and Mr. PoNsortar, the motions were agreed to. COLONEL cavea's rirrtrus. Mr. P. MOORE presented a petition from Colonel lames Oli ver, formerly in the service of the East India Comings', having served under them at Fort St. George several years, eating, that In 1808 the Directors discharged the petitioner without trial, contrary to the Articles of War, and praying that that Honour ' able House would inquire whether his conduct deserved a dim , nsissal without assigning the cause r Mr. P. MOORE moved that the petition do lit on the table;; and observed, that for three or four years his letters and addresses I I have been continually returned, unnoticed by the Directors. i Mr. WALLACE opposed it, on the ground that Colonel Mei ver's conduct had been very reprovable—he had been detected is i conunerctal transactions, contrary to orders; that after berg re.; proved for his conduct, he was detected a woad time. He also! ' tefused a liberal offer to relinquish his proceedings. He would also state to the House one grand came for Isis-being dismissed from Fort SL George, which was, for lending money to the Fong ars. to the 3 et.reme injury of his employers, and abusing the trust that was reposed in him. Sir E. MONTGOMERY spoke highly in favour of Cot. Oil. ver's military merit. After a few observations from Mr. P. Moots and Mr. Es.' TILL E, the petition was ordered to lie on the table. PRISONERS OF WAR. I Mr. Christy, from the Transport Office, presented at the Bar of the House, an account of the number of prisoners of war confined in the prison at Dartmoor. Mr. ROSE said, that these papers were brought up in consequence of the representations of a Noble Lord on a former night, whom he was sorry not to . see now in his place (Lord Cochrane). According to the Noble Lord's statement, it would appear that the prisoners were dying to the number of from SS to 40 in the week ; but the documents now before them would prove, that the Noble Lord's information was so far from being correct; that the proportion of deaths in the last year was in the ratio of two to 100, a proportion he believed under the estimate of ordinary mortality. The situation of the prison would also appear to' be extremely advantageous, and it would be found, that human ingenuity could not con.' trive a building of the kind better calculated to pre. serve the health of its inhabitants. There was a stream of pure water running through the middle of it, and every care was taken to make the accommo dations as comfortable as possible. Mr.TYRWH ITT declared,that sofa . from making a job of the prison, for the accommodation or prcifit of any individual, the sum of 840,000 was saved to the , public by bui ding it in that place ; and so far from' any inconvenience or injury arising to the prisoners themselves, from being placed in such a situation, he would venture to state that there was no part of this country more healthy than the spot on which it stood. Sir CHARLES POLE thottght that some Reso lution should be proposed,stating the facts mentioned by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr—Rose) and the' ' Hon. Gentleman behind him ( Mr.Tyrwhitt), and also containing some acknowledgment of the good con- 1 duct of those to whom the care of the French priso ners was committed. If any motion to that effect should come from the opposite side, it thould have his most cordial support. Mr. ROSE said the statement was of importance, ; as a wrong impression on th.s subject might operate to the diladyantage of our own prisoners in France, and it was in order to prevent such an impression, and not for the purpose of any triumph over an individual, the papers were thought necessary to be made public.. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT expressed his satisfac tion at the account which Ministers were able to give; i but was sure the Noble Lord would never have made the charge, if he didnOt think that he had som:. ground to support it. Mr. WHITBREAD said, that since the first in- 1 troduction of this subject, he had received a letter from the Member for Plymouth, dcaytng that he had ever exerted any influence for the building of the pri-, son in that situation, or received v any benefit from it: The papers were then ordered to lie oa the table and to be printed. MILITARY PUNISHMENT& 2 3 ' * Sir FRANCIS BURDETT rose Pptittant to no tice, to call the attention of the Honor to the present state of corporal punishment in the army. He fel: it necessary to enter into some explanation of the rea sons which induced him to withdraw the. original notice which he gave on this subject. For several years past the subject lay on his mind, and many Members knew that it had long been his intention to bring it before the House. Hearing, however, from .is - - some General Officers that there was a disposition in the Government to do away that Which it was the of his if not immediately, finally to abo• The LORD CHANC_ It was against go ing object _motion,. • 'L..'" -- into the Commit.ee, because no good could possibly lids, he refrained from briuging it forward, although arise from it. his feelings were much excited and interested. At Lord HOLLAND , in suppo r t o f the question, the time of passing the Mutiny Act, he had hopes that corporal punishment would have been abolished. test between the Crown and the people , whether it w as asked whether the Revolu t i o n i n 1688 was not a COD- The aggravated case of the Local Militia-man ins pressed the object stronger on his mind ; he was called not ,then decided that the Go v ernm ent belon g ed to the governed, and not to the Go ve r nor ?from which on, as it were, by this accident, and accordingly came He', contended that the granting of this motion would down to the House to state his own sentiments. He intended, however, that the case of Taylor should be not be a violation of the Bill of Rights. lie warmly supported 1110 motion. only an illustration of the general arguments • con ceiving, therefore, that some Gentlemen might ' be led Earl MOIRA said, he certainly should support it on the grounds which he had formerly done. away by the narrow appearance of the notice, and Lord GREY said he would support it w i th a s much might not think it candid or fair in him to bring the zeal as he ever had dune ; and n o ar g u m ent had whole subject of flogging . the soldiers under the con- been introduced that night to induce h i m to vote to :nitration of the House in such 'a way, he Was in the contrary. duced to give a new notice. Other reasons also' con- cuffing, shssermined him to submit the motion in its Lord REDESDALE said a few w or ds in opposi tion to thr Bili. present forint 'the press was absolutely silenced op , Lord DONOIJGHMORE briefly explained 1... Olt subject, and prevented from expressing its feelings 1 after which the House divided , w hen ther e a pp e a red, on the spreading of a practice so opposite to hums- For For Lord DonOughtnore's motion.. - Contents 54..... nity. Severe sentences had heen.ipassed an two emi- 1 Proxies 28-614—Psgainst•de motion—Non-contents ant public writers, pn the ground that - they had de. l 76-. Proxies 4.5-I2L-7-Pdijority against the R o m dared the Dritisharmy to be injured, and that it was 89,..-Adjouracd la one Vdock. ;he Wont wile* in Europe , -(Hear, Afar, frail Nr; •• r *ere.)—He did not understand what the Right 1.h.p.. Gentleman meant by saying "hear," he could not contradict the fact, although he might differ with him in the opinion which he entertained respecting it— Sir MARK WOOD here interrupted the Honour. able Member, and observed, that from the mischief. ous 'leniency of his arguments, and the length to which he seemed inclined in carry them, he felt is bh duty to move, that the Gallery be cleared. Mr. BROUGHAM said, it the Honourable Mere. ber persisted in his motion, he would move an ad. journment. The SPEAKER said, it was with the Honourable Baronet (Sir M. Wood) to persevere in his motion c oot, as he thought proper. Sir MARK WOOD then observed there Were strangers in the House, end the Gallery was ordered to be cleared ; but when nearly emptied, he dropped his motion. On our instant readmission, Sir FRANCIS BURDETT was eagerly reassert. ing his former opinions, in which he had been inter. rupted. He had held converse with British Officers, who all expressed equal detestation with himself on the severity of flogging. If any doubt should abide with his Majesty's Ministers on the opinions which he had then quoted, alt he desired was an assurance of regarding his motion when he then could produce the !videoce .of Officers, which might turn the scale cf opinion ; but& assured the House that many Officers bad expressed themselves in as strong terms of repro. Cation and disapproval as he would use himself.— The country had excellent and virtuous instances of men who knew how to conduct their regiments ttin discipline and to glory, without the infliction of corporal punishment ; and he was also sorry to that the country bad instances of regiments utterly spoiled by uncharitable correction. It was $n open truth, that the very mode taken to ensure obedience and promptitude of discipline in our troops had made them broken-hearted and dispirited.— ,He felt himself peoud to name some of those who had ameliorated the condition oTtheir regiments, by acts of humanity. His Royal Highness of Glou. cester was a notable instance of moderation and le. airy, and by his ability and charming exertion of feeling, had brought his regiment to that degree of obedience and discipline, that for three years corpo. ral punishment had not existed.— He was glad, how. ever, to say that the present Commandr-in•Chief was friendly to the ferocity of punishment being too derated. Sir Robert Wilson had intimated in hit pamphlet, that the present Commander-in• Chief wish. ed to get rid of the system of flogging ; and he was convinced that his Royal Highness the Prince Re gent bad equal feelings to his brother, on the evil tendency of military punishments. (Hear, her, hear.) He felt assured of success, from proposing a mo tion, which was domestic to the feelings of many of the most illustrious and valiant individuals in the nation, and which would be received gratefully by the nation. The Honourable Baronet instanced the regiment commanded by the Duke of Grafton, which 'for nine years during the command of Lord Eus. ton never had a lash laid on the back of its soldiers. These examples of lenity would do more with the House than the flourish of oratory, and he trusted that the House would accord with his sentiments, when they reflected the contentions which they had made in the .Mutiny Act for the present year. No doubt the House expected him to make instance of gross end strong abuse before that they listened to his motion, and they should have instances vigor ous enough to sustain his cause. Officers had in. formed him, and on whose veracitylie placed depen. dente, though he dared not to assert their information was true, what he would shortly state to the House. He did not mean to mention the naive of the parties, lest harm should await them for the avowals whch they made, but he would name them and bring them forth in evidence, should the House deem proper to sustain his inquiry. As instances of punishments in abominable practice, there was a soldier eho 1 ad a defect in his sight, and who was really flogged be. cause he was blind I The soldier was of the Isle of Wight, and the surgeon informed him (S;i Franc:s) that he reported the soldier's blindness to , the Colonel, but the chief surgeon had b .lieved the soldier's blind ness was simply a sham to obtain his discharge. 'Use chief surgeon's assertions were believed, though other surgeon on cress-examination maderemonstrance against: it, and the poor man, for the crime of blind• ness, received one hundred lashes. (N., so.) They seemed to disbelieve ; the surgeon was ready to attest the truth of what he had asserted. (Maas liar, sane him.) If inquiry be allowed to be made, I shall name him. (Hear, hear.) Another instance of severity oc• curred at Gibraltar, where two mess to procure their discharge, had chopped off each of them one of wag their hands, but instead of being discharg ed, the y unduly punished, and driven to drag out their re maining days in penury and wretchedness. Another man, who- had waxed grey-headed in' he service of his country, was severely Bogged fur being only a little in liquor, and who had never before even been cone mitted.to:the guard.rooni. He bared those wounds which he received in his country's cause, but they ap. pealed in vain ; at the same time ahoy of ouy 16 years of age was flogged. Vain was the remon 'trance because of his youth, for neither age nor youth had reverence nor lenity shewn them. (Hear. hear.) tie had v-itneseed himself a man flogged who had he (mumble wounds for the cause of his country, of 41 years endurance, end of another ot equal length of service, who had his skull pieced with silver, and be cause that he had tasted a little too flinch beer, he was punicied also. He confessed. that he could nese: have had any idea of the severity of the measures put sued for obedience, unless that he had borne witness himself to the instances which he had cited. Well I could lie have wished the hills to cover hiic. and the I earth to open and swallow him upp, to secure him from the endurance of such disgrace. The punishm rat WAS called one hundred lashes, but being inflicted .vith an instrument of nine thongs, multiplied them o nine . hundred. The cord from which the instruments o; torture were formed was not like the ha , .. (al , with which Gentlemen touched their horses in a I calash ;it was eqeal in thickness I ' • cord (a piece on the Clerk's table) which lay befor e : the , House on the table. (He ar, A.a most humiliating circumstance to humanity W 2 5, a surgeon was ordered to attend, not to restrict th liction to the weight of the lashes, but to tell hoe heavy the sufferer could endure tie w. i• i ginitionso e fitisted in the r the poets nevaermcyreainte:lealsuicty. bpu ki nish e firin ment ff ! n ides as ~ -; i~~ .