Star. — London, England, 1807-04-16 00:00:00

w -- - t h e ir firmnefs, vigour, and decifion in the condo& of t h e war, the general reaitude of their coadu& in ev ery other branch of Adminiftration, he found that t hey were entitled to his unqualified approbation. — They had, it is true, been but a fhort time in power, but it was long enough to deferve the thanks and gratitude of the nation. They had governed long enough for their own glory, but, unfortunately, not long enough to promote and confirm the advantages of their country. They continued in power, " Sada fibi, fed non patriz." Confidering the principle upon which the prefent Mi. niters came in, it was impoffible he could give them his lupport. For what was that principle ? Moft cer tainly, it was either upon an exprefs or implied pledge not to fir a great Conflitutional queftion. If they did not come in under a written pledge, affuredly , they did under a virtual pledge, not to advife his Ma. j e tty upon the Catholic quettion. Accepting office upon the re teims, what confidence could they hope people of Ireland ? It was well known that from topes were held out to the Catholics of Ireland pre. vious to the Union, that whenever that great meafure 'Mould be effected, their claims would be heard and liikurred with temper here. Were it not for tittle ,promifes, the Union would never have been carried. In order to procure the concurrence of the Catholics, the Bilhops were made the inftruments of influencing the Pt iefts, and the Priefts were bribed to cajole the people. The prefent Adminiftration brought with 1 them into power, all the odious parts of Mr. Pitt's principles with regard to Ireland, and fuperadded the principle of eternal exclufion to the Catholics. Ire. land, at prefent , m i g ht be confidered as a paralized I member of the political body. It affeaed the whole frame; but, let it be reftored to fife and vigour, and the cripple would throw away his crutch, and grafp the (word in defence of his benefactor. As to con cellions to Catholics, he was allonifhed at the incon tinency which prevailed with regard to them. He was at a lots to dilcover why principles, which were admitted in framing the conflitution of Canada, flould be coafidered as fubverfive of the Conflitution in Ireland. He was happy in the opportunity of ex prelling his approbation of the conduit of the late Minifters, and of condemning the principles upon which the prefent Adminiftration came into power. The Hon. Mr, ROBINSON obferved, that the head of the IA Adminiftration was a partner with Mr. Pitt in the meafure of the Union, fo much re. probated by the Hon. Gentleman who had jult spoken. He could not afrent to the motion of his non. Friend, becaufe it contained, in effea, an un qualified approbation of the whole of the conca& of the late Miniflers. As there were many parts cf their conduit which he could not approve, though he mutt ndmit he was in general well inclined towards them, he could not contifiently vote in fupport of the mo. tion. To their military meafures he had great objec tions; nor was he perfectly fatitfied with their mea lures of finance. With rape& to the Volunteers, the conduit of Government, as well as the language of the late Secretary for the War Department, was !nog refit and imprudent. Government, in faa, feemed to have renounced all conneftion with that body. Conflituted as it now was, it was impoffible Government could know any thing of its Rate or difcipline, fur in abolifhing the lnivairtg Field Offi cers, they had difrolved the conneCtion between them. 115 to any apprebeonoo of dAtigcr from Iceland, in confequence of the late change in his Majefly's Councils, he was peduaded there was no foundation for it. He had the firongeft reafons to fuppofe that the Indent Minifters would al upon a fyllem of con. ciliation with regard to that country. He would al low that the late change was a fubjeEt of regret to him in common with others ; but, though he e egret ted it, he did not confider himfelf bound on that ac ccunt to oppofe the prefent Minifters. He would give his vote for the previous queflion. The Hon. Mr. GORE, as the reprefentative of a large and populous county, felt it necefrary to trouble the Houfe with a few words. He would fay nothing of the Catholic 11111, for it was not before the Houfe, and had nothing to do with the queftion. He would however take this opportunity of declaring that if the Bill for the admitlion of Catholics into the army and navy had been brought forward, he would have given it his warmeft lupport. He could not perceive, how ever, that the Catholics of Ireland were under any great obligations to the late Minifters for that Bill. They brought it forward to prevent the difcuffion of a more comprehenfive meafure. Had it paired, he much doubted whether the Catholics would have felt themfelves much obliged to them for introducing it ; whether they would not have confidered it as a paltry (Waterlog. One great eaufe of the turbulent fpirit which prevailed in Ireland, was the ignorance of the lower clafres, arifing from their total want of educa tion. What, he would afk, did the late Adminiftra lion do to remove that radical caufe of all the com motions which from time to time had prevailed in that part of the empire ? He declared himfelf againft the original motion. Mr. ROSCOE faid, the Bill ro often alluded to had his entire approbation. It was armature, in his opi nion, which would have tended, in an eminent degree, to conciliate a great part of the empire, and to add three or four millions of people to our national Drength. Had it been paired into a law, he was con vinced it would have prevented any further claims on the part of the Catholics. To talk of the danger of popery at this day was abfurd. It often happened, that we had Catholic allies fighting by our fide ; and he wifhed to know, upon what principle of policy, or reafon, or confiftency, we rejefled our own Catholics, and did all we could to drive them out of our ranks, and out of our fleets ? The late Minifters went out of office upon Conftitutional wounds; the prefentcame into power upon grounds quite different. When he looked to the perfons compofing the prefent Admi niftration, it was impotlible he could give them his fupport. Some of them were not known at all, and fome of them were too well known. They had been tried, and had been found wanting in the balance. In the courfe of the debate, a fort of comparifon had been made between the late and the prefent Chancel lor of the Exchequer. That comparifon might have been carried much farther. The abilities of the lag were not unknown to that Houle. The proofs he had given of his intimate knowledge of the refources of the Country would not be foon forgotten. His difin tereftednefs, while in office, would alto be recolleaed. 1 , . The prefent Chancellor of the Ex che q uer was not k 1 i known out of his profeffion. He would judge of them i - both by their attention to tibeir own interetts. One of them went out of office as little indebted to the pub lie as he came into it ; the other, at his very en trance, was even grafping at a fituation of great tru(l and profit for life. The fir( thing for which he would arraign the prefent Adminiftration, was for the wanton and unnecefftry introduction of his Ma jelly's name into that Houfe. It was they who, by provoking a debate and a divifion on a truifm in the Confloution, were guilty of that indecorous all. On a former evening they were told, that if Mini fl ers were left in a minority, an appeal would be made to the country. He was one of the hit men in the kingdom who would let himfelf againft the legiti maceexercife of the prerogative, upon fair and con thtutional grounds ; but, if the Crown !lipoid exert its prerogative for the purpofe of overpowering the opinion of that Houle, he would call to the recol ledion of Minillers, that that Houle had its privilege:, and that it was their duty to exertife them on fuch critical and important occafions. He trolled that they would not feparate Wore they had agreed to lay their fentiments before the Throne. Sir JOHN NEWPORT Paid, that he would take the lag fpeaker but one at his word ; and he trolled,' before he tat down, he fhould be able to convince him, on his own principle, that he had a right to his vote. The Hon. Gentleman had declared his difapproba tion of the late Miniftry, and yet it was only a month, a little month," fince he entertained a different opinion. One great leading objedion of the Hon. Gentleman's was, that the late Adminiftration had been inattentive to the condition of the lower claffes ia Ireland. He afked what had been done with re fpeet to the ellablithing of a fyftem of education in Ireland ? He would tell the Hon. Gentleman, and he would refer him for proof of what he thould fay, not to reports, not to'alTertion, becaufe that was a kind of evidence with which the Hon. Gentleman was not obliged to be informed, but to the ftatute book Well, an authority of which he could not plead ig norant. He would there find an At far ellablilhing a Commillion to enquire into the management, the mifmanagement, the gross and flagrant abufe he fhould rather fay, of the funds which were let apart for education in Ireland. That Commiffion was ac ting at prefent, in the full vigour and execution of its duty, and would, he trolled, if it was fupported as it thr-old be, effect all the patriotic purpofes for which it was inflituted. The late Government did not content itfelf with bole or impradicable theories on this im portant fubjeCt. No : they-began where they fhould do. They began by promoting an enquiry—by en deavouring to difeover who were guilty of nufma• naging the funds applicable to fo facred a purpofe as the education of the people of a country. They began by endeavouring to remedy the defeds of former Commiffions ; of thofe Commiffinns, at the non-exe cution of which he would fay, the Noble Lord on an oppofite bench connived, and Coffered them to lie as a dead letter. When funds dellined for education have been taken by private individuals—when they have been a pproptiated by them, and handed down as pant of their Oates, it was high time for an frond( go vernment to interpofe. Thefe he knew were dangerous fubjeils to meddle with, but if the late Government had continued in office, they would have meddled with them. They would have traced out the dilapidations, and compelled the peculators to refund. This he knew was a heinous offence, as well in England as in Ire land. There were many in both countries who could not endure the idea of refunding. The Hon. Gentle man had alfo afked why fome meafures had not been taken with refped to the tithe laws. Here he mull have recourfe to affertion, and he trufted he would meet with credit from the Houfe, when he declared, that a fir( objeB in the confederation of the late Mi. nißry was the amelioration of the tythe fyftem in Ire land. Were they to expea any thing of this kind from men who have fet up the cry of Church, for the purpofe of getting into power ? Were they to e aped it from thofe who had contributed to the de gradation of the Church, by uniting pariffies, and covering half a county with a Jingle incumbent ? He alluded to the perfon (Lord Weftmoreland) to whom the cuftody of the Privy Seal was committed, dining whole adminiftration in Ireland, the Church had been more degraded than in half a century before ; when it was committed to the care of Bifficip, who, in the hour of danger, ordered the mitre to be blotted from the efeutcheon on their carriages ; when men of broken fortunes, and tainted diameters, were intro duced into the Church, to the exclufion of the worthy, moral, but unproteded Curate who had toiled in the vineyard. He called upon that Houfe to dif- 1 countenance men who had fo abufed power, when in their hands, in that country. As to the Catholic Bill, he could not fee how the Conftitution would be at all endangered by granting to them a 4zd part of what they were excluded from by the liilh Ael of 1793. He could not fee how they who procured that Aft, by influencing the Catholics, could refill the Bill brought in by his Noble Friend without the greateft effron tery. As to the UniJn, he could not agree with an Hon. Gentleman (Mr. 'Tighe, who fpoke fo ably in the debate, with refped to that roeafure. He was not in Parliament at the time, but, as an humble in-' dividoal, he gave it his warmelt fupport. He did In, in the expedation that the concerns of that coun try would be ccnfidered as Imperial concerns, and treated as fuch in the Parliament of the Empire.— He expeded that the Catholic queftion would have been fo confalered and difcuffed—if he had not been thus deluded, he would have cut off his right hand fooner than have given his rapport to the meafure of the Union. When Ireland made a furrender of her privileges, and greater no country ever relinquifhed .—when the furrendered her Imperial Legiflature, the did it upon conditions which were well underliood. Was it right that the furrender thould be accepted, and that the boon fhould be refufed ? Ireland was a component part of the Empire, and if it did not do well, this country could not do well. He would fay no more. Let not Gentlemen flatter themfelves that we thould be able to conquer the common enemy, deprived of the hearts and hands of the people of that country. They who had given the advice to his Majefty, for he was perfuaded there were fecret ad vifers, to difmifs his late Minifters, affumed no com mon degree of refponfibility. The prefent Minifters, he would contend, had been guilty of the unconflit u tional ae of giving a pledge upon their entrance into office, for the vacancy which they were called to fill was created by the refufal of the former Mini. Rees to give the pledge which was required from them. But why flionld he (peak of pledges ? The head of the prefent Government had gtven inntuncr• able pledges in his time. With refpea to this very Catholic Bill, did he not write two let ters to the Of ficers of the Irifh Btigade, in which he pofitively promifed them, that what was law in Ireland (hould be law in England ? Nay, more, that the whole career of military honours fhould be open to them ? If pledges of this kind had not been given, all the gold of England, and all the gold of Ireland, nor the eftablifhment of Compenfation Commillions, which fat to receive claims, and lavifh the public money upon the inllruments of corruption and fervility, could ever have carried that great meafure. He called upon the Noble Lord who had been fo deeply concerned in effecting that meafure, who was privy to the extraordinary means by sohich it was effected, ' who had dealt profufely in thole pleAges, to hold the hands of his colleague, and to prevent him from e x• citing religious prejudices, and principles of intole- rance and unchatitablenefs. He thould tell him— The pledge which he gave was to promote the Union, and not to excite the difcord or fanaricilin of the people ; and, if you do not concur with us in there benevolent and patriotic views, we can have no union with you." He trotted that the present Minitlers, in their eagernefs for power, would not pull down the Conftitution. The Refolution fubmitted to the Houle, with fuch eloquence and ability, should have his warmeft fnpporr. Mr. BANKES fad, that he was ready to give his fupport to any meafure brought forward for remedy. ing the absrfes in Ireland. lie always difapproved of the Union; and the principal reafon which made him difapprove of it was, that he thought it threw the claims of the Catholics to a greater ditlance than they were before. However he waited the Catholics to be admitted into the Contlitution, he did not think the times were nrw ripe for their admiffion. Al. though he might approve of the general condo& of his Majesty's late Minitiers, yet in the circumflances that led to their difmiffion, they (hewed a want of knowledge not only of the difpofition of the King, but of the difpotition of that Houle, and of the tem per of the country. He thought that the Minilters were right in refuting the pledge demanded of them, but the King had alto a tight to chute other Minifters if he thought proper. Mr. TIERNEY began by obferving upon an ex pretlion that had fallen from the Hon. Member who moved for the other orders of the day, s 4 Wleit do we need more than that his Majefty has clifmitilid his Miniflers?" For his Part, he nee,led a great deal more. He wished to know the reafon of that change which every Gentleman that had hitherto fpuken joined in lamenting. He regretted the difficulty of (peaking on this fubjea, without introducing the name of his Majefty, but that difagreeable circuintlai.ce was not owing to any thing that had fallen from thole on his fide of the Houfe, but from the Gentlemen on the other fide, who Elated exprefsly that his Majefty had no advifer in this inflance, but acted entirely from himfelf. It had been hitherto the ufage of that Houle . to call in queftion every aft of the Royet Prerogative,' upon the fuppofition of its bein recr,mmended by fume advifer ; but now, for the fit ft time, the Al of Prerogative, which is the preterit fubjeft of difeliftion, is flitted to have been done without any advifer. If then there was any indecency in bringing the King's petfonal charafter and condua into tl e confideration of the Houle, that indecency was forced upon the Houfe, by thofe that would not that the King had any advifers on the fubjea. He cr uld not, how ever, credit the truth of this affet tint' ; he blieved the King had fecret advifers ; and he fdpefted, for more than a month before the late Minitters were ditmiffed, that he was influenced by fecret advifers. He protefled to Gon, that he believed the whole bu. nets was the refult of a long and dark intrigue. The Minitlersmight have mifunderflood hi, Majetly's ideas upon the Catholic Bill, but was there no way of heal ing a mitunderftanding ? The Catholic Bill was with. drawn ; every thing was done, that could in honour be done, to fatisfy the feelings of' the King, and yet there was no healing this mikonception He believed in his confcience, that his Majefty would never have demanded that pledge, if he had not been let on to do fo by fome fecret advifers. He had nothing to gain by this pledge, for he could have difiniffed his Mani tiers at any future time as well as now ; but the fecret advifers, if connected with the prefent Adminiftra- Lion, had every thing to gain by propofing loch a pledge, as no men of honour could take, v.:rro enter tained the opinions they had publicly avowed. This pledge. which had been demanded by his Majafly, would aft as an effectual bar to exclude from the. Adminiftration, the greaten part of the talents, the property, and the relpeftability of the country. This pledge was invented by Come fecret advifer ; and it was the only thing which could make the prefent hltnitlers hope to retain their fituations. It appeared to him, that the pledge was thought of only for that purpofe; that it was mtichievous to the iniereft and the peace of this country ; but that to Ireland it was the molt fatal blow that the heart of man could conceive, to deprive the people of that country of hope itfelf ; to tell them their doom was irrevocably fixed, and that his Majefty would never, tinder any circumflances, grant any thing for their relief. The fyftem, however, by which the new Minifters prom ifed to gevern Ire land, was contained in two very pretty words, firmnefs and conciliation What they meant by firmnefs was pretty generally known, but what the y meant by con ciliation was pall his power to conceive. Concilia tion was generally fuppofed to contift of giving and taking, but the conciliation of the prefent Minifters was to take away every thing, and to give nothing , not even hope. It was intuiting to the Catholics of Ireland, that thofe doctrines fh..uld be now avowed and fupported by a Noble Lord (Lord Caftlereagh), who, in aol, wrote to the Leaders of the Catholic Body, to tell them that if they would be calm and quiet, and truft to him, their claims should be granted. One would fuppote, that the fame pledge would be offered to a Noble Lord who had fo pledged himfelf to the Catholics in iBot ; one would have fuppofed that a pledge would have been propofed to the, Duke of Portland, who was alfo pledged to the Catholics, but it appeared that his Majelty knew that this was not necellary; but if his Majefty can thus fele& thofe indi viduals to whom he may choofe to offer a pledge, that to an honourable man would be an eternal exclufion, from that moment he is ablolute in this country. It was, undoubtedly, the King's prerogative to change hisMi nifiers ; but; after he had exercifed that prerogative, it was, undoubtedly, the privilege of that Houfe to ex prefs their opinion upon the manner in which he had boa advifed to curare that prerogative. He thought it was the ditty of parliament firmly tn tentonfttatta when an inefficient Adminitlratinn was appointed at a molt critical ,period. The prefent Adminiftra tion had, in fait, deblarect their own incapacity thir teen months ago, when they retired from rffice; and he could not fee . what they had gained in thole thirteen months, unlefs it was that they heal grnbin fomewhat older. The Dram:ear Perjame were exadly the fame now as they were then, but there was a change of charade's. The perfon who was then At torney General is now made a Chancellor of the Ex- chequer; Lord Mulgrave, who was tarmerly Secre• tary for Foreign Affairs, is now found nut to he the fitter perfon for Firlt Lord of the Admiralty; aral the Duke of M rntrofe, after having fit at the Baard•a. Trade during the lamer Adminiftration, is now ona lrfied by experience to take a higher place, and . be Mailer of :he Honfe (a laugh) But it feemed that the Doke of Portland was to be the tower of drench to this Adminiffratien. Although lie had the greatelt yelped for that Noble Duke, yet he mutt fry that his age and infirmities would in a great meadire dilqua lify him from filling the fituation of Miniltet in this Country. It was reported, and he firmly believed the report, that another Minnier would loon appear. Was it to be Lord Melville, or Lord Wale(' :y ? He fhould with to know of the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, whether now, or when the eledian was over, he retained the fame fentiments that he ex preffed in his advertifement, and whether he woula ferioufly far that he believed that the church was in danger. It it were a mere cry, let up without any meaning, he mull declare that be could not eaaeala• that man or devil could contrive any thing mare wicked than it would be to diffolve the Parliament, at the m• ment it was intended to make this cry of " No Popery," the watch-word of civil difrention all over the Empire, and more particularly in Ireland. He hop d that it was not with a view of paving the way to difrolu. lion of Parliament, that the precut Miaitters were fo loud in (peaking of " Church and King." Mr. MILLS laid a few words in explanati m. Lord CAS TLEREAGH, in a fpeech of canfi derable length, unavoidably entered into the difcuf. lion of fume points which he conceived to have been already diffidently anfwered. He begged the Houle to recoiled, that a Noble Lord on the other fide of the Honfe (Lord Howick) had, at the very outfet of the bufinefs, promifed that he would give an ex planation to the Houk, as fonn as he fhould be fairly authorized to do fn. That pet million was folicited by his Welly's prefent Minillers, as they knew that fecret confidential tranfadions had been communicated to Li:aims who were not even of his Majelty's Privy Council ;—they did fa with a view to re:ctre the name and charader of his Ma. jelly from an imputation to which garbled ex trads (Hear ! hear I hear!) —to whieh garbled ex tracts might whet-wife have rn tde him liable. Up. cn his Majesty's permitli in being rbta'ned, to Hate the whrle of the trantaftien fully and explicitly to the Houfe, the Noble Lord (Hawick) molt unqueftion ably delivered that Itaterrent to the Hook in the molt candid, temperate, and roll edfill marin er ; but t h e n it was laid, that his Majehiy had had fetter advilers, wha had recommee.cicd him to demand the pledge, and afterwards, upon meeting a ith a potitive leitnal to comply with the Royal Will, to difroifs his then Mini. tiers; this he molt plainly and unequivocally denied. The clifiniffal of his Majelly's late fervants was the pure emanatian of the Royal Mind, as was clearly to be underttocd from his blajefly's own declaration, namely, that he had not feet' any perfon bur his own Secretary from the B:llFebruary to the time of the dif mail of his late Miuitters. Then, as to the g iving up of the Bill, that was in hien fi gnal proo f to any man poffeffing that adive energy of mind with which his Majetty was mot! eminently bleffed ; to fuch a perlonage the at of giving up the Bill was the drongett proof that it was only a temporary meafure. Still, notwithstanding the acknowledged powers of that great mind with which the Sovet eign is, happily for his people, endowed, it mutt be extremely irkforne to a perfon at his advanced age to contemplate the idea of quarrelling with his fervants. To prevent fuch an unhappy event again taking place, the de • wand of a pledge moll naturally fuggefted itfelf as the obvious remedy. But, Gentlemen fometime: thought proper to refer to the antecedent circum flances which led to this—reference was, therefore, had to the Hate of Ireland, and the claims of the Catholics, and fume allufion was made to his (Lord C.'s) former opinions on thefe points. Now, fince he had 'aft returned to office, he had had an opportu nity of feeing the difpatches from the Duke of Bed ford upon this fubjed ; they ftated that the diftur bances in the Weft, and part of the South of Ireland, were of a general nature—that they were not con. fined to attacks made upon Protellants only ; but, that Roman Catholics, and even the Priels of that perfuafron, were fufFerers, in common with every other peaceable inhabitant, from the outrages which were committed by thofe infurgents of whom the dn . - patches made mention. Then, with refped to the al lutions that had been made by an Hon. Baronet (Sir John Newport) as to the opinions which had formerly been declared by him (Lord C.), lie molt pofitively declared, that he now thought, as he always did, that it would be dangerous to admit that great mafs of people, the Catholics of Ireland, into the full be nefits of the Constitution, a benefit which he thought them but ill qualified to receive, a favour which he had always been averfe to the conferring—he had always been averfe to the granting of Parliamentary favour on them to the full extent of what they wifhed —he had always been averfe to any idea of commn nicating political power to them. Whattver might be his private fpeculations, he never diked any thing in public which he was not warranted in declaring. Neither that great man (Mr. Pitt), of whole name he fhould always fpeak with the utmoft veneration— neither that illustrious Statcfman nor himfelf ever once imagined that the entire privileges of a Britifh Subjed fhould be granted to them, contrary to the fenfe of a confiderable majority of every part of the Empire. Gentlemen fhould recoiled that there were two papers circulated in public at the time to which - they alluded—of the one he was moll confident that neither that great man, of whom he had already fpoken, nor himfelf, knew any thing, until after it was Tome time in circulation—and with refped to the other, he recolleded that he wrote fomerhing like it in a letter to Lord Cornwallis, Rating, that it would be molt conducive to the interetts of the Catholics of Ireland to remain peaceable, until the Union ; that meal - asp he always tbonghr, might ife• Lcc. fa. tell 00- oi