Star. — London, England, 1819-12-01 00:00:00

p i n ion% I shall this hightlave the honour n as his Proxy. . ARNLEY, while he deprecated the con e Magistrates, on the 16th of August last, could support the greater part of the mea osed by his Majesty's Ministers as neces safety of the State. arquis of LANSDOWNE, in reply, inti intention of supporting sotne.of the epee. niucd to the House by Ministers, though med the principal part. &ships now divided as follows bate:its. Non-Contents. - 56 Present r 110 - 12 Proxies - 65-173 —47 Majority IH. on was therefore negatived. HOTISE OF COSIMONS. WILMA)! LAMB took the oaths and his seat r Herefordshire, in the place of Mt. BaAso, now e. HAMILTON moved for a Copy of the Reference Judges, or any of them, rela -.re to the Report of, ;sinners upon the Law of Scotland, with the answers all papers connected with the ribject.—Ordered. 7:111T WORTLEY repeated the explanation which en the day before, and which it appears had again ed in some Papers. He had not said that a Resole ised at some Meeting in the West Riding of York tins out Lord Fitzwilliarn's property for partition, a Meeting that Nobleman's property had been so t far partition. There was a great difference be nple allusion and a Resolution, for the first was the Iy one individual, whilst the other would involve all horn it had been adopted in its guilt. He was un ,ccupy the time of the House with what regarded ally ; but these were awful times, and it was fair that !mold be put into the mouths of men by whom they u spoken. PALMER presented a Petition signed by a great the Inhabitapts of the Borough of Reading, is Berl ?Lining of the conduct of the Manchester Magis tpersing the Meeting of the 16th of August, ta Meet ,hey considered to be perfectly legal, and which they re had been conducted with exemplary order and It also represented the Royal Thanks to have been JUI due consideration, and charged the regular Tribu- Manchester District with a disposition to stifle, in- Lowing inquiry. pestion that it be brought up, rant ONSLOW expressed his conviction that the the 16th of August, which the Petitioners had re- Is legal, was most illegal and unconstitutional in its be Petition was then brought up, read, and ordered e table, and to be printed. VARANDER gave notice that he should move, to he number of Seamen required for the Royal Navy. QU I N presented a Petition from the Clergy and I of the County of Limerick, praying for the establiah more efficient Police.—Laid on the table. HUTCHINSON, seeing an Honourable Secretary asury in his place, wished to know why no Return nade to the Order of the Hasse of the 3d of July last Papers respecting the Expenditure of the late Audi; ,kbon, &c. JSHINGTON said, that they were nearly ready, it regular mode would be, for the Honourable Mon ty/ his motion on the subject, as this was a different DAVIES gave notice that he would to-mort a Return of the Names of the Persons employed in 1 : Civil Departments in the Army and Navy; as also irn of the Number of the Recruits raised for the Land Great Britain and Ireland, at certain stated periods. !:,N NET said he held in his hand a Petition signed by ',Lanford, of Middleton, in the County Palatine of lAm hich he had read, and was couched in very decorous ; and which, in his opinion, furnished a spat singular of the talents, good sense, and information that existed e class of persons to which thy Petitioner beleoged.our ...loner set forth that be was one of the p e rsons who, on of August, conducted a large body of individuals to e.g at Manchester; that he was intimately acquainted ' , IL: circumstances which related to the events that hap that day, and that he was very solicitous to be allowed : at the Bar of the House of Conunons, its order to be on the subject. As be (Mr. Bonnet) had had two ..:.rsations with the Petitioner, he had no hesitation in 1:ilt the information which it.was in his fewer to give. was highly important. He should like nothing bet that the Petitioner should be examined at the Bar, in. skew that many of the allegations which had been made !h.; People were highly coloured, if not wholly without ton. As the Petition would be read, he would not enter furtl.er details, bat would merely add, that. from all li , atd of the Petitioner, he seemed to be an honest, and well-meaning man. His (the Peti )tioner's politioal certainly did not meet with his (Mr. Bennet's) appre but he (Mr. Bennet) had yet to learn what there was able or seditious in persons holding opinions which had old time out of mind in this country ? which had been von by the rich and the powerful, (among the rest by a i Itichmond) and which had never beforehrought down miputations upon the persons by whom they bad been &led? Ile hoped the 'louse:would grant the prayer of titioner, and hear what he had to say.--The Petition was ,:ought up, read, and ordered to be printed. the motion of Mr. D. W. HARVEY, Chairman of the ilitec held last Session on the Cameiford IMeetion, the ' wa., directed not to issue his Writ for the Election of L...cs to serve for the said Borough, till the 6th day of try next. 1). W. lIA [IVEY then gave notice, that on Wednesday Lilt he should move that the House resolve itself into a ontte: of the whole House, to take into consideration the 1i.,,,0rts of the Committee on the Camelford Election, and an.n.e evidence. 11 tITCIII NTSO N moved for the production of the same ::s illative to the Audit and Commissariat Deparunents, as Sc ordered last year.—Agreed to. 3 the motion of the Cmancettes of the Escalates's, the ut of the Committee of Supply was brought up, and the hearted to its Resolutions, that Supplies should be granted L Majesty for the service of 1890. he CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER pee notice, t he should to-morrow move that the House resolve itself Ciantnittee, to consider of the Supplies. )1 the moti on of the Right Hon. (rent:lemon, an Address scion ordered to be presented to the Prince Regent, request that he would order the usual Estimates for 1020 to be laid the House. REN FELL inquired, whether any part of eke Five -eras ordered to be repaid to the Bank, under the determi 'tea of the Committee of last year, had been so repaid ? Ike CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER trusted the Ut would do him the justice to recollect, that be bad stated Year, that under the arrangements made for the Public it could not be expected that so early a repayment of ° le Eve millions should take place as bad been anticipated, :ot the bask should consent to give the same facilities to the at in farmer years. The Bank had refused to grant those uu", and the payments bad been retarded. He was glad, to be able to inform the Houle, that a.cmid ezable 2 had already bees repaid to the Bank, and that arrange . bad beta made for paying , the rest, with which tike ' ' ' •?-4 : 1 of the Bank were satisfied. He should also add, that no tasoo whatever for encroaching on the regulation , " I 'Y last year for the resumption of Cash Pay- '' l4 ^(Lisc", Scar, hear): WSW MP',ASURES. Mr. BROUGHAM wished to know which - of the 11 n ew Bills proposed by his Niajesty . 6 Ministert z`ald be read a second time on Thursday, and whe ler the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) would not consent ' :huge the Order of the 1)47 which stood for that 'l, and to remove it to a fnrtherr• period ? The ties tiont whenever it came on, would involve the ircassion of tht whole system of which the Bill "ruled a part; it was decorous, therefore, to the auntry, that more than three days' notice-should be :wee of a.me3,ure which tended-to prodoceby , far 4e rind permanent alteration in its Constitution that had ever yet been effected by any Act of the Legis latur*—( Hear, hear). Lord CASTLEREAGH. should not alter his in tention of reading the Bill, a second time on Thurs day, in consequence of what had &lien from the Honourable and Learned Gentleman. The Bill was pruned, and already in the hands of Honourable Members, who had thus abundant time to consider its provisions. On the question that the Speaker should leave the Chair, the principle of the measure might be discussed. e was the more eager to enter into the discussion early, in order to strip the Bill of all the elaborate misrepresentations with which the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had so studi ously surrounded it, and that the Country might know its real nature. Mr. BROUGHAM contended, that if he had stu diously and elaborately surrounded the Bill with misrepresentations, it became still more incumbent on the Noble Lord to allow a greater time for its consideration and the circulation of its printed copy, which could not be surrounded with his " elaborate misrepresentations.' At any rate, common decency required the House to give some little time to its Constituents, whose most valuable rights and sacred+ privileges (which he should hitherto have called inalienable) it was about to break down, to under stand the measure, and express their sentiments on the subject—(Hear, hear). Lord FOLKESTONE, ccrnsidering how the House were likely to be occupied this day and to-morrow, and how intricate were the provisions of the Bills proposed, defied any Gentleman to say that he could know their nature sufficiently well to ge into the dis cussion fairly and effectually on Thursday next.— Besides, the People knew nothing of the measure, and would thus be deprived of the power of expressing their opinion upon it. If the discussion took place on Thursday, it would be impossible, not only for the Country, but even for the House, to understand the measure—(Hear, hear). He therefore hoped and trusted, that the second reading would be postponed to another day. Mr. BENNET thought the subject of too much importance to be payed over without the most seri ous investigation. In order to insure that necessary object, he gave notice, that he should move tomor row, that a call of the House take place next Thurs day, if no other day was fixed for the second reading --(Hear, hear, hear!) . ST ATE . :Or TIM NATION. Lord ALTHOIt assured the House, that he never felt more oppreaeed than he did at that mo ment, by the magnitude of the subject which he had undertaken to bring under their consideration. The importance of it had struck him to be great when he gave his notice ; but what had since passed—he al luded to the measures proposed last night by the Noble Lord—so increased that impression, that he was very sorry to be the person to address lie House on the subject, and heartily wished that it had fallen into the hands of some more able individual. Of this, however, he was persuaded, that on die incscat t as on all former occasions of a similar nature, he should experience the kind indulgence of' the House, while he stated to them his reasons for making the motion with which it was his intention to conclude. It was agreed, on all hands, that the state of the country was most alarming. But surely before the House proceeded to adopt measures to remedy the evil, they should deliberately ascertain how far those re laxedies were applicable to the danger. It should Arst lte made clearly manifest that the present laws were insufficient, that measures of coercion and ri gour ought to be substituted ' • and, lastly, that the precise. measures proposed by his Majesty's Minis ters were those the most exactly suitable to the case ? —He did not pretend to be deeply versed in prece dents, but he believed there never was a question of this nature submitted to Parliament without previous and serious investigation. The House must ground their adoption of the proposed measures either on their confidence in Ministers, or on the evidence con tained in the Papers laid on the table. No one would maintain that measures of such importance should be rounded oa confidence in Ministers. He assumed, therefore, that the House grounded their adoption of the measures on the Papers which had been laid on the table. Those papers referred to two periods— the one before the 16th of August, the other subse quent to it. Although in those Papers it appeared that in Mancheste' the Magistrates apprehended con siderable danger before the 16th of August, it was observable, that Mr. Spooner did not think that any rising would take place in Warwickshire, and that Earl Fitzwilliam declared it so be the general opi nion at the York Assizes, that there was no disposition in the West Riding to turbulence or commotion. It was only in Lancashire, therefore, that, previous to the 16th of August, any danger was apprehended ; and even there an alteration had taken place for the worse. Since the 16th, arms had been d discovered. Since the 16th, the symptoms of general iscontent seemed to be much exasperated. These circum stances—the finding of arms in Lancashire, the in crease of Meetings in Yorkshire, the tumultuous as semblies in Scotland, and, lastly, the assertion, that a simultaneous rising was projected for the Ist of November—all appeared to him to prove that co ercive measures did not tend to allay discontent. — Having stated this-generally, he would now call the attention of the House, more particularly, to the evi dence before them, in order to thew that there were several defects and chasms, which ought to be filled up and explained, before the adoption of the mea sures recommended by his Majesty's Ministers ; 'measures, indeed, which, in his opinion, no state of things could justify. The first defect in that evi dence appeared to him to be, that it contained no intelligence freern Scotland previous to the 16th.— Without a imovrledge of the ori‘n and causes of the discontent, it would be in v ain to think of applying a remedy. Even from Lancashire further information of that nature was desirable. If complete informa tion were afforded, Parliament , might proceed to ap ply, not a palliative, not a temporary remedy, but a remedy that should go to the root of the evil. With regard to the proceedings at the Meeting at Man chester, the only knowledge the House had was con tained in the letter of Mr. Hay—.for the statemente s in the speeches of Honourable Membep could not b receieta as evidence. In that letter there were many, things requiring explanation. Mr. Hat' said in his letter that after the arrest of Hunt, Moorhonse, the nick Act was rend, and the Meeting was dia- - . Petsod: The Noble Laid said that one of the Magis: hates, in reading the Riot Act, was trampled upon. It was utterly impossible that the House should know how the fact 'stood without further information. , A great many persons, himself among the rest, had conceived, that if Sir John Byng had been at Man chester on the Hith of Auit: L L, the mischief which had occurred might have prevented. It had been said that Sir John Byng, having the command of the district, ought to have been at the post of danger. He (Lord Althorp) happened to know, however, that Sir John Byng was at Manchester on the 14th of August, and offered to stay there, but was told by the Magistrates that they apprehended no danger. Although he was within reach of an express. he was not sent for ; so that if any blame attached on the occasion, it was not to Sir John Byng, but to the Magistrates. All this, however, ought to be made to appear distinctly by evidence, as it could not be received by the House from his (Lord Althorp's) statement. Another observation which he wished to mac, was, that a great deal of the evidence on the Table was anonymous. It might be necessary, for the safety of persons giving evidence in what were called the disturbed districts, that their names should be concealed. It appeared, from the evidence of those persons, that they acted very much as spies ; and after what had passed two years ago, he thought the House ought not to adopt strong coercive mea sures, on evidence liable to such suspicion. Nor did he think they ought to trust implicitly to the acute ness of the Magistrates, in discovering whether those persons gave just evidence, or whether, as in the in stance to which he had just alluded, they did not ex cite their victims to the commission of crime, for the purpose of occasioning greater alarm than circum stances warranted. These were the reasons the felt that he had stated them imperfectly) which convinced him, that on this subject, further inquiry was neces sary. He would now consider- the objections that might be made to an inquiry. The one, the delay that it would cause in the measures proposed ; the other, the apprehension that the inquiry might injure the Magistrates. If he chose to address the argumentunt ad homiatm to the Noble Lord, he would say, that he had no right to plead the inconvenience of the delay ; because, knowing the circumstances in August, he might have advised the calling together of Farlia ment at an earlier period. But that ought not to weigh with the House, if they tliought diet it was absolutely necessary .the measures proposed should be hastened. He could not, however, see she incon venience of delay. With respect to the Bill against drilling by night, as nothing but evil could result :such a practice, no one could object to the Bill nutting an end to it. With respect to the Bill rt.- gardingTraverses, delay could be of no importance, as the right of traversing could not be exercised in die disturbed districts unta the next Assizes. With respect to the other three Bills, that to warrant the Search for Arms; that to prevent the Meetings of the People; and that to increase the Restraints on the Liberty of the Press, he would trouble the House with a few remarks. As to the first, there was no• thing in the Papers to shew that arms had been accu mulated to such an extent as to render delay clinger sus. .As to the second. it did not apPear that the Magistrates hid hitherto experienced_ any s liiissuity in dispersing the most numerous Meetings. As to the third, there did not appear to him to be much difference in the good to be expected from passing' it at present, or a short time hence. On every poli tical question there-must, however, be a balance of evils ; and whatever might be the evil of delay, he was sure that it would be exceeded by the evil of precipitation. Unless the merits of the measures "proposed were, deliberatively considered, before those .measures were adopted, not only would the credit of the proceedings of that House be justly impeached, - but the measures themselves would fail in accom plishing the object in view. As to the danger to be 'apprehended to the Manchester Magistrates, as he ,did not conceive that it furnished any legitimate ob jection to the Amendment proposed to the Address, •so neither did he think that it militated against the inquiry which he now proposed. What was the nature of the danger threatened by the proposed measures ? That every thing dear to man, that every thing sacred to him was to be exposed to infringement, And was it to be placed against that danger, that in the event of a Parliamentary inquiry; something might come out that might eventually injure Mr. Norris or Mr. Hay, in their defence against any pro- - secution that might be instituted against them ? If these Gentlemen were innocent, nothing of that na ture could come out. It was only in the event of their conviction by Parliament that any injury 'could accrue to them. He had endeavoured to shew, that there was an indispensable necessity, in the present alarming state of the Country, and with reference to the measures proposed by his Majesty's Ministers, to enter into a minute inquiry into the subject. He had stated-the defects which existed in the evidence, and he had endeavoured to counteract the impression that delay would be injurious. He most deeply regretted that all this had pot been done by some one more competent than himself, to make a just impression on the House. He considered it disgraceful and dis honourable to sacrifice the best feelings of English men, as well as some of the dearest and most inva luable principles of the Constitution, to a case of temporary alarm—(Neer, hear). The Noble Lord concluded by moving, 1 . That a Select Committee be appointed to consider be Pa pers laid before Parliament by order of ids Royal Highness the Prince Regent, and to report thereon to the. House." Colonel DAVIES, in seconding the motion, ex d his regret at perceiving that his Majesty's IT. misters anxiously seized upon the state of alarm into which the Country hat! been temporarily thrown, in order to invade the rights and liberties of the People—(Hear, hear!)--He should deem himself unworthy of the confidence of his constituents, or of a seat in that House, if he did not stand forward and express his disapprobation. He fully agreed with an Honourable Friend of his, in expressing his surprise at the awful denunciation of the Noble Lord (Cas tlereagh). He was astonished to find the House called upon to adopt thy; severe measures proposed by that liobk Lord, him no other information than the garbled and imperfect statements contained in the papers which had. been laid on the table.— statmpente,were not sufficient to warrantibsi Ig4m in *preens. the proposed measures. heroin quoitsewaftbedcd ample evidence in ,ser rot of in obeli-ratios made by an Honourible Bi- ronet ore a former evening, that if the law had been stretched beyond it; proper limits, it was the fault of those whose duty it was to put it in execution.-- 7 Were the House to shut their eyes on what was pass ing around theta ?—Were they _to view with uncon cern the demand made for a g reater extension of power than was ever before veste in any Ministers? It appeated from the papers before the House, that - there seas a design on the part of Ministers to intro duce despotism, and to trample on the liberties of the People. If there were any doubts on that point, the approval by the 'Noble Lord opposite of the princi ples laid down by the Right Honourable Meinber for Dublin-01r. Plunkett) was sufficient to remove it. That Right Honourable Gentleman had urged, that if Magistrates entertained a fear that the public peice was to be disturbed by the assemblage of large bodies of people, they had a right to disperse them ; and if blood were shed in consequence of such a proceed- . ing, the. Magistrates would be justified. This opi nion was hailed with enthusiasm by the Legal Gen tlemen on the other side of the House, and re-echoed with enthusiasin by the Noble. Lord himself. The papers on the table were, in his opinion, an argu ment against, rather than in favour of the measures of Ministers. It appeared that Government had been aware of the existence of training being carried on to a considerable extent—that they knew of large bodies having been assembled for this plirpose in different places—that it was difficult for persons to pass about their ordinary business without being interrupted by these men—and yet no measures were taken to pre.. vent such proceedings—(Hear, hear.')—The papers were also evidence that arms were openly manufac tured and disposed of in different districts, and yet no steps were taken by,the Magistrates, who were vested with the power to prevent it. lle was aware that such proceedings ought to be stopped ; he felr, too, that the wild spirit which had gone abroad ought to be re pressed ; it tended to demoralize the People. If the law was not strong enough to do this, he was satisfied to arm it with additional power—with power sue - cient to crush disaffection wherever it appeared.— But let them examine the measures proposed as a re medy. He, for one, dissented from them, as he con sidered them calculated to subvert the Constitution 'but as if these measures were insufficient to suppress disaffection, Ministers also called for an additional armed •force! Let him, however, ask the House what it was which caused this discontent and dis-af fection ? They could not conceal from themselves that an excessive load of taxation was the cause.— This it was which caused the distress and misery which were to be found in all parts of the country.— (Hear, hear, hear). And with this fact before their eyes, were the measures of the Noble Lord the best mode of redress? If the People complained of their sufferings, were they to be answered by military exe cution ?—if they remonstrated, were they to be toh that their only answer should be the bayonet ? (Cries of Hear, hear). It appeared that Governinent having once drawn the sword were determined to throw away the scabbard. If the Manufacturing Districts were in a state of rebellion, and were to be ruled with a rod of iron, -how, he would" ask, was such a system to be supported by military force?— It was impossible to go on in such a manner without subverting the Constitution- r -(Hear, hear). It was taxation—taxation onequalled in the annals of him tory, which reduced the country to this miserable Si' tuation. They had at present a Revenue which wa i t; decreasing at the rate of five millions a year; though new taxes were added, still there was a decrease. Was this a system which could support measures coercion ? If Ministers were desirous of relievi. the wants of the country, if they shewecithemselves not inattentive to the feelings and distresses of the people, they would, instead of adding new taxes, practice economy and retrenchment in every branch of the public expenditure ; but there never was a ~ of men less inclined to do this than the present Mi nistry—(Hear, hear). He had, a short time since, Occasion to look into the Department of the Military- Establishment, and he was sickened at heart to. find the degree of extravagance which was carried on in all its branches. The expenses in that Department were, now that we were in the fifth year of peace, double what they were in Dips. The salaries in ay different offices were double what they had been , that period—(Hear, hear, hear). This shewed that there was something radically wrong in the present system. He did not wish to resort to the cant term of Reform, but it was evident some revision was peratively necessary. He had beard the state of country compared to that 9f France prior to the volution. At that period France laboured under Most arbitrary despotism, and the Revolution hailed as the dawn of freedom. If the French cerement had not been deaf to the warning voice , Public opinion—if they had attended to the interests of the People, that dreadful scene of bloodshed which ensued would not have taken place, and the unfortu nate Monarch of that country would not have terini nated his exigence as he did. Was this country,to go on without being made wiser by experience, until the dreadful leason was brought home to them? If Ministers persevered in the measures which they have acted upon, then it required no.great spirit of _ pheey to foretel that it must end in a revolution.—. (Hear, hear, hear). The HonoUrable Member, after some further observations, concluded 'by giving his most cordial support to the motion of his Noble Friend.—The Motion having been put from the Chi' ir. Mr. BATHURST had hoped that, under the I ,_ sent danger, Gentlemen would have taken a different course to that adopted by the Honourable Gentleman and Noble Lord opposite. The country was "- looking to -Parliament for protection, and for adoption of some measure to put a period to the p_ ceedings of those individuals calling themselves Ra dical-Reformers. He was well persuaded the Noble Lord and his . Honourable Friend had no intention of 'approving the mischievous proceedings of these son; ; hut they tacitly did so, by proposing now : adopt a measure which must have the effect of i peding the progress of the Measure now proposed ,the House for securing the safety of thePublec in_ ! ttire from their irregularities; and this too, after House had pledged itself to the Throne to adopt,' Out delay, some measures to protect 'the loyal 'well-disposed part of the People, whose safety wai put in jeopardy by the prevalence of these disorders,. The Right Honourable Gentleman then adverted:o the spirit which existed amongst a certain class of legivickuals, wilostobjectcpuld pot —,.be mistaken... The nanid - Of 'a man, who ought long since to ' • • t • . • . • I: k * . , s i • e r is • f- *, , ir .ir .e- -• . nt to• ' ng .; be ras , JUL 134' I vas tip i 4 J si- ya's igh ase. of ins • ,yes the ices, nch set 4 ary- ind Win nent ace, ,the n at that !sent erm im- this Re- r the was Go- ce of :rests rhich • 1 1 ortu. 7 ,50 until ? If hare , pro, r after g his ,) • Noble '; .t pre- Ferent % eman now I , r the pro- s Ra- 4 Noble ion of - e per- )w to If im- • , sed to in fu• or the it and :y wai nrders rted 't4 ;las, of ) • have 4111