Star. — London, England, 1816-05-29 00:00:00

__.. ;_ • - ,- , ~}~ -r •••• ~ feptisitinni in territory. her position was such ,that dichad not yet time to apply a complete remitlY to her financial distresses, 'He was sorry indeed to say, that the finances of Austria were how as much de. pressed as they had bees at any time since the be. Finniag of the Revolutionary War, but stillthe debt m question was 'hi no means to ly considered as ob. !iterated. If any arrangement could be made for the liquidation of the debt, it certainly would be very wise to make it; but this he could say, that there could not be a more unfavourable time than the pre sent for entering into any negotiation on the %Object. It might, pethaps, be said, that the amount of the cantributiotz id to Austria by France (which came to "SPA sterling) ought to have been handed to lut bn account of the debt; but. on reflection, no man would say.that such an arrangement would have been by any means fit on the p.e,ent . occasion. In fact, it would have been most unwise to attempt it, as it might have deranged the whole political arrange ments of the Allies, to the utter prejudice of our most important interests. To agree to the present motion would only be deluding the 'country. He confidently looked for the re-establishment of the finances of Austria, and the liquidation or .this debt, but being convinced that no negotiation could acce lerate this.' but rather retard it, he felt it lis duty to meet the present motion by moving the previous question. • Mr. JOHN. SMITH said he could easily under stand that there were many difficulties in the way. of effecting an arrangement as to this debt during the war ; but all these causes must now have ceased to operate. 'The country was certainly now, entitled to know the cause of the course pursued by the Austrian Government. He therefore hoped the Honourable Gentleman would divide the House upon his mo tion, as a sum of such an enormous amount as 5e13,000,00Q, due to us by a foreign power,-required that every step should he taken to recover it.. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was at a loss to know haw the amount of the debt due_by Austria could be stated at 813,000,000. The amount of the original•advance was only 84,600,000. It was quite unfair to state it at a larger sum than it really wits, merely for the purpose of producing a false. impression on the subject. No };rester proof of the total inability of Aibtria to pay our claims could be given than this; that since 1799, although all parties had beau in power, no Minister had thought prover to call upon that nation for repayment. Mr. LAW thoin!ht that it would be estremely inn. politic at this moment to press the palm' nt of that debt ou Austria. We ought to do every thing to re. store an.: coiist.ii.lite her power. She was the cen tral monarchy, On whose efficient strength the peace and bsiaict of Europe depended. France was not the Only nation to be dreaded;, Russia was equally dangercus : and when the exposed state of the fron tiers of Austria was considered, the propriety of as. stating and supporting her would be evident. state of the Austrian finances was such that it would take a man's whole tiff! to understand it. The Vienna bank paper, issued at 100 florins, had been reduced to '2O flotins, and in that state was at a depreciAtidn of 3,50 per cent. The issues of that paper amounted to ale million of florins, and the total of the Aus trian debt was lour millions of francs. He should oppose the motion, although he did full justice to the urtives on w h ich it was founded. Mr. W. SMI l'H defended the motion, which only dirt cted Ministers to enter into some negociation to effect an arrangement satisfactory to both countries, and was therefore not intended to occasion any pres sure on Austria. The pressure on the .people of this c•ointry was at all events much greater; and he dNibted whether it would not he preferable for Eng land to look at once into her situation, and he would not call it national bankruptcy, or consent to a re. ductiun of the interest of the debt, instead of coati- Ruin w pay beywid her means. • Mr. BROUGHAM, alluding to the argument' used by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that under various administrations no Minister had called upon Austria for the payment of her loan, observed, that when Mr. Fox came into power, the circumstances of Austria were very different from the present. It was atter the battle of Austerlitz, and when the Austrian Monarchy had sunk to its deepest depression. He agreed in the policy of assisting her, and renovating Ler force, to oppose her as a central barrier to the aggressions of either Russia or France; but he did not see that the motion could counteract that policy. It would only keep alive our claim, and chew to the people of this country and to Atis:ria that we had not forgotten it.' He had understood that both Aus. flan and Prussia had pledged themselves to give a new censtiturien to the parts of Poland which re mained in their possession; but they had taken no step for that purpose, whilst, to his infinite honour, the Emperor of Russia had conferred a constitution on liberal principles to the Polish kingdom erected under his auspices. Mr. HAMMERSLEY, in his reply, stated, if the thirteen trillions lent to Auatria had been applied to the reduction of the national debt, twenty-seven mil liard of it would have been extinguished in the course of the period during which Austria; had kept our Tame . y. He r ersisted in his mctian. Ttie House divided. Against the motion, 43. For ft, 16.—Majotity against it, 27. CATHOLIC CLAIM. Sir S. cox mem LEY. in rising to make the , motion of Which he had given notice, wished to guard gee House against its being understood thathe should', advocate the cause of tmancipation without preper isecuritits. He would never concede as,a right what, was clamed and could not be granted as such,' con-, si.tently with the principles of the Constitution. He then proceeded to take a comprehensive view of the, policy and conduct of the different Synods held by ale Catholic' Prelates, and the opinions which they bad expressed. In 1799, they had declared, « that t . c interference of the Crown with the nomination of as i sh'ops, for the purpose of ascertaining their loyalty, was just; and ought to take place." In ISM ano ther Synod had come to a very different decision, that it was inexpedient to adopt any measure to aker, ecclesiastical discipline. On Sus explanation being re. (le e re d, they had elated that the declaration of inex fediency was not in opposition to , the resolution of 1799, brit that the inexpediency arose from the cir cumstances of the eines: ist tSIO a new meeting Cad confirmed the resekutionii'lBoB, and denounced line vacation by Chards. !VA isp ;tow so popul ar in Ireland, ii Otis eadakt - irlbolltrat wren " lapsi into rlai mere bontination the Crown. The ' Syne>i df iSle had eonfirnted the resolution of 1810. He then read from a work by Mr. Clinch, published. in 1808, and styled N the 'equity; or a Brief to Bi shops." the Opiniotik of that gentleman respecting emancipation, and in layout of securities; In 1813, a pastoral eaten had been issued in Ireland, repro bating the Bill at that time proceeding though the House, and the conditions on which emancipation was then proposed. If that measure hard been car ried three years since, it would have pet an end to the disturbances excited by those men who wished to mislead their country. At the next Synod, in 1814, it was :hewn that the rescript of Quarantotti admitted all which the Bill . had been proposed to include.-- In the month of August, 1815, the Catholic Prelates hid declared as their conscientious opinion, that any power given to the Crown to interfere, either directly Of indirectly, with the nomination of Bishops, would be improper, and that at all times they would oppose such a measure in the most Catholic and constius iional manner. Nay, on Good Friday last, Arch. bishop Murray had thought proper to ascend the pulpit, and to denounce those who had signed the Petition presented by his Hon. Friend, the Member for , A letter from the same Prelate bad ap. peared in one of the Dublin papers, stating, that to' l submit to an alteration of ecclesiastical discipline would be the degradation' and the enslavement of Catholics, and the abandonment of their religion.— Dr. Troy was therefore at issue with his coadjutors, and the Catholics who had signed the Petition with those who had not. Things could remain as they stood at present, when some of the statutes of Eliza beth, subjecting all persons who should receive Built or communicate with the See of Rome to the penal ties of high treason, were still in existence. He then alluded to the regulations adopted in Hungary and Austria, and concluded by moving that several.ofh cial papers relative to the regulation of Roman Ca tholics to various States of Europe, and in their Co lonies, be referred to a Select Committee, -.and that they report the nature and the subject of the Ordi nances respecting the regulation of Roman Catholic subjects, and their intercourse with the See of Rome, and other foreign jmisdiction. Mr. PEEL expressed his intention to support the motion, as he saw nothing objectionable in it. He was always desirous that the subject should undergo a deep investigation, but in saying that he should not oppose the motion, he did not mean to give any pledge that he might approve cf any of the securities which the Honourable Baronet might propose. No securities could remove the objections which he had to the extensive securities proposed, and he even thought it improbable that any of those securities could be made more palatable to the Catholics than those which they had rejected. Sir H. PARNELL thought the animadversions of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) on the language of the Petition to be too severe : he should have the honour to present the Petition in a few days. He trusted the same moderate and, temperate lan guage which had lately been used on the occasion would continue to prevail in all future discussions. Mr. Piet. and Sir H. PA MILL explained. Mr. LOCKHART opposed the motion,,because in all changes which we have effected, we have made them on the practice of our ancestors, and scot from the-principles of the usages and liberties granted to their subjects by foreign states. The Hen. Baronet, he thought, could not shew any . president for the adoption of the measure he proposed. Mr. W. ELLIOT said he did not ascribe that value to the regulations which other people put opcin them ; but there was little chance of this question succeeding, unless due concessions were made ; and he trusted the Catholics themselves would not be backuard in making all the concessions that were tie. nessary on their part. He should support the motion,' as being a step in the progress of the desirable end. The information might be useful to the public. Lord CASTLEREAGH thought it well for Par liament to be fully informed of the practices which other „nations had adopted, as it would shew what was the unvaried practice of all the States in Europe respecting the liberties enjoyed by Catholics, without prejudice to the governments under which they lived. The head of their Church was, of necessity, a foreign Power, and it was necessary, therefore. to prevent the See of Rome front going beyond the boundaries which the safety of other States required. One of the errors that hung about this question was, that many persons seemed to think that every step that was taken in it as a matter of legislation, *as a matter of suspicion, that it was not looked upon as the proceeding of common precaution, which had . been found necessary in all times.— He thought the present question embraced a most interesting inquiry, because our former policy had, by the course of events, been turned aside. He con sidered the Catholics to be interested in the good Government of these realms; and it was not con- intent that any foreign , power should have an unre stricted intercourse with the civil policy of these realms. It was a strange anomaly, that all other countries in the world had taught, that by being placed under regulations, the Catholics were sate. After the Reformation we had endeavoured to de stroy the Catholic religion altogether ; and the Act of 15th Elia. was founded on the supposition that that religion was not to be tolerated in these realms ; but by the liberalized system of the world since that period, it was known that the Catholic religion, though not tolerated in this country, had been exer cised as freely, as in any part of Europe. , The lan guage of certain Catholic Prelates was that "of pas sion rather than reason, and was unworthy of them; for they must knew that we were watching over their worship, as freely as over our own; but they would know their own Government better when they saw, that so far from-Irishiog to interrupt them it wished to encourage them. Lie was sorry to say that it was not in Ireland the CAtliolic relig ion was prolessed with most liberality. There was there more of the ultra-montane print?* rte 7t; thin in other countries. On the whole, trusting that nothing could grow out of the Committee proposed that could give pain to any man's mind, but that its inquiries would enable to look ° fairly at what had passed in Europe upon the subject, he should Support the mot t ion; Sir J..NEWPORT Stipported the motion, from the conviction that it would dispose the country to the more favousable reception of 'the measure, and lead to a immunity of ptiviieges. The :agitations to wltiebilli Noble Laid had lituadd it &NM perms. b*4 111 1,1 .4 by the experience jai time, to be grossly , fallacious and nnjnik,„ Sir C. H I PPI S LEY Wetly replied. He begged to be Anderslood as having moved the question dis dimly as a Protestant motion, in order to reconcile the anomalies concerning the Acts of Toleration. The question was theft pdt and carried without a division, and a Committee of twenty-one appointed accordingly. stoop LAWS. On the 'simian of Mr. CUR WEN, the 43d of Eli zabeth was entered as read ; when the Honourable Gentleman stated, that the question he was about to submit to the House involved an expense of no less than eight millions, and the entire degradation of the lower classes of society : he apologized for attempting a subject of such magnitude and importance, but stated that his Constituents had called on him to bring joule measure before the House on account of the numerous Scotch and Lists• who settled in the neighbourhood of Carlisle and Durham ; and he had received every encouragement from the Noble Lord opposite (Castlereagh). Among the numerous Peti tions that ,had lately come before the House, there was not one thst did not represent the present system of the Poor Laws as intolerable. The experience he had had on the subject would induce him to shape his course in a manner differedt from others who had preceded him._ Hrshould state what he knew, and then move for a Committee to consider the subject. He was not contending merely to remove a burden from the capital of the country, but also to amend the 'situation and conduct of the great mass of the people. He should shew, that ever since the 43d of Elizabeth the condition and morals of that body had been growing worse and worse; and some steps must be taken, or the system which had caused this evil would bear down with it all that was valuable ill existence.— It must be recollected, that Mr. Gilbert and Sir F. Eden had spent their lives in the examination of this subject : he should not say what was the met it of their suggestions, because they were perhaps suited to the exigencies of those times; but in the end they had failed. The next person who took up the subject was Mr. Pitt : he.had endeavoured to find a remedy for the evil ; but in a question of this kind it was not great abilities alone that c •uld succeed ; and Mr. Pitt wanted the requisite experience—it was, there fore, no discredit to his talents that he had failed.— He (Mr. Curwen) himself lead received fifty different proposals, all at variance with each other ; he there fore knew the difficulties of tl:e question. The next person who took up the qu•attion was Mr.Whithread ; he was well qualified by experience • his speech wava most luminous exposition of the ;hole subject, and I though he then failed in his attempt, he had left re corded his most valuable opinion ; he :hewed that the evils of the poor arose out of the poor laws them selves, which it uas impossible to remedy, but of which the whole system must be altered. Sir Wm. Pulteney had formed an opinion in favour of fixing a maximum which the poor's rates should never in future exceed; and Mr. Malthus seemed to be of this opinion; but he ( Mr. Curwen) was not for over throwing the system at once, but for gradually on. dermining it. Mr. Whitbread's plan for this purpose was, first, a general and systematic education of the lower classes; to this he (Mr. Curwen) most heartily subscribed : secondly, a national bank to provide for die poor out of their own earnings ; with this plan he also coincided ; but the present system had gone on for two hundred years, and could not be instanta neously laid *fide; be should not, therefore, rely on any one system, or withdraw so great a machine as the poor laws, without suggesting some adequate substi. cute. Whatever had been the intention ofthe 43d Eliza. beth, it certainly had given a right of being provided for to every individual in the country, and we had no right to destroy this inheritance unless for the general ' advantage of every one: but as the Pour Laws did operate to the destruction of the happiness of those whose happiness they were intended to secure, he hoped -to shew that their abrogation would be the cause of an increase of happiness to millions. If the question were put to those who received relief, they would confess that it lessened them in the opinion of their associates. But what was it that had made the people of this country superior to those of any other ? What was it but that constitution and that freedom which gave them moral and political importance, and an interest in supporting a character I 'fake away all this freedom and this interest in their own charac ter, and they must become as worthless as the slaves of despinic Governments. The Poor Rates were not only destructive of happiness to the lower classes, but oppressive and ruinous to ail who paid them. He should shortly trace their history. The first system of Poor Laws was addressed to rectors and curates, who were enjoined to take care that the poor aid not die of hunger. The situation of the poor was then 'most deplorable, for by the dissolution of the mona steries they were left without the resources to which i k they had long , been accustomed. But the mischief of this enactment soon appeared, so that a Statute passed, ordering that any man found idle for the space of three days should be marked with an S.— Still the evil increased, when the statute of the 43d, of t Elizabeth was passed with the wisest intentions. ; It was designed only in aid 'of the old and impotent, and never intended to apply to all indiscriminately,' to the young and rotust, and even the idle and aban doned : thie appeared from the sum ordered to be raised, which was only 5e13,000. But the effect in , eighty years was such, that the sum to be collected amounted to 665,000 : an enormous sum compared with the income of the country at that time— a. 25th part of the whole. The statute of William and Mary v was remartabls, as sheaving the progress of the evil, which had so much increased, that 'it was then thought necessary. as a preventive, to mark with a , badge the poor who received relief. The rate, in I 1760, amounted to two millions ; and sine that pe riod, in fifty •ears. it had arrived at*one-eiglithd the whole income of the country.; In 1780 a great change took place in the situations of the country, which then became irgreat mannfacturingtountry, and encouraged agriculture less than it had done.— , The consequence was, that many quilt well disposed inUivirluals removed to the towns, where they had not the same motives to good conduct as before—their sense of character vanished with the increased means 'of concealment, andthe little attention that naiscon . duct excited. It Was true they'gained greater wages, but these were not always favourable to happiness, , A because wadi thew arose increased warm. Another • the e lost orders, h rates e esdhililaitven w o . a U s e i .e h tinl t 2P h ni e ` g) u ; s ) t.o r ' s in w 6 4 a p r p u. I i m e d ber fo s r rt 4ei r up w g ih no s! " in a d e ee s d,:t t len i tl i e n g g radatis ep n . o tu f ic ri niet 0 1 1 - o , k ; p h r a e d sen c t oth sy p s i t , e t m ed , o i f h in e and rendered them entirely will of the Overseer. If in the times of William:l Mary badges had been adopted, we i n our times hrldi somethinh very like them—he m eant the wi t h ; 011 p. A pauper was first stripped of all the little prep tr ; his cottage afforded—he had n 6 interest left ia W. and nothing remained but a principle of scatp selfishness. This was a state which the people them. notsewilsveensonwwr into go ise makettoh the abstract vs s ti a rd c ae r c i t fi fo ci jae t n : aocvnloahisdp of t ir far it c: h tt e • eS Ned y but while he admitted the claims of necessi ty , y l e thought nothing should be afforded till it was clea t that the individual had done all in his own pov rer t , procure a subsistence. Tit=re nev'•r " a Pttiot more wiper for comivg to some rat:on:4l v : s!ern the subject than the present. Whatev:r ?nide bed's glory of cur arms. future histrnians ou:ti rathfr dwell on the sudden nr,ral change of th.r rapidly affected as it had been by th e widely dd k fe l ik system of Lancaster and Bell. Such a elanpe m ust greatly prepare the way for receiving any prop os ,' to render the lower classes more independent and happy, Mr. Rose was deserving cf much praise for l eav ing encouraged Friendly Societies, but they Lad not always succeeded ; they were too costly in the fiet place, and were also defective, because their vo tT were not proportioned to the wants but to the tontii. bution of the party. The Poor Laws were not en! 7 prejudicial to the lower, but also corrupted the loiOn t classes of society, and had a tendency to repress te al benevolent feeling. It was one of the praises of Ire. / land, that whatever was the distress, there winanstßatftelcwa:sys: a pervading feeling of benevoleoce an s d ufli no c t i h e occasion. In Scotland, a country of all o th ers the most moral and best informed, benevolence was fully equal to the demand made on it ; slew the mischievous effects of the Poor Laws more forcibly than the instance of a Parish in Dumfries. shire, where, 4E13000 a year having been bequeatLel for the support of the poor, they %e e, though few it number, all paupers receiving relief ; while is the next parish, where there were 1500 poor whim: pm vision, thete were only two paupers. The remedy be meant to propose reced on the experience cf go years. For 30 years, all the workmen he had em. plied contributed 6.1. a week to a fond for their relief ; R 20,000 had been raked in that time, and I the result was to afford relief, medical asslstance,a..4 I a proper allowance to such ies needed it. His plan, therefore, would be to call. on all classes to subscribe a small contribution to a National Bank in each Parish ; ft..ur.pence a week when wages, were. ten shillings would produce £2,520,0:10. The Honourable Gentleman then went iteo better details which slrewed that the contribution front tuie labouring classes would amount to itt.,BD,oan), and from the other classes, £4,000,000 ; making up £8,800,000: the result would be to create habits of independence and +comfort, and secure the poor from the workhouse : all the misery now experienced had arisen from the degradation of the lower classes, Jed his object was to raise and dignify them. He should propose that a certain number should be elected from that class, and a certain number from the class of occupiers, to form rules for the regulation of the money contributed. The Honourable Gentleman then contrasted this with the present system—the im. portante and interest in having delegates from their own body to superintend their concerns, instead of being subject to the caprice of tin overseer. He re.: commended the money to be placed in the baud: of the Lord-Lieutenant of the County, under the s-cu. rity of Government. He thought an equal contrit'. tion should be made from the military for the same purposes, and some provision established for illegiti. mate children deserted by their parents, who were generally brought up in vice and ignorance, and therefore became the worst members of society. He would confine the operation of the 4.34 Elia. to the old and impotent, and would revile the badge for tile worthless and undeserving : he wished also to sim plify the law of settlements, and to allow parishey on paying a compensation, to remove idle inhabitants to other parishes. where there was a greater demand for labour. Such the general outline cf the plait he wished to suggest, and lie should now move for a Committee to take into consideration the Poor Laws, and to report thereon. Mr. LOCKHART could not refrain from return. ins his sincere thanks to the Honourable Member lot the able light in which- he had placed the important . subject, that the real interests of the poor might be consulted, and that canker be destroyed which had too long been preying on the vitals of the country.' The evil was of longer standing titan the 4.3 d of Eli zabeth. He 'hewed (he causes that led to this sta.. cute, and traced the bad consequences of those which had followed it. The object now in view was not to deprive the poor man of his inheritance, but to re::. der him more industrious and independent in society. It was highly the duty of the House to take up the subject before it had gone too tar, and the diffcrei t classes bad pressed.too mush upon one another. Alter many observations in favour vt the inquiry, he con cluded with hoping that no time would be lost in an interference. Sir E. BRYDGES expressed his.hesitation in the advantage of taking up the sanject in the way, recom mended. He did not we the evils of the system in so alarming a light as it had been represented; but he thought the difficulties that world arise from a system so novel as that proposed would he insuper able. Whatever might he the result of the Commit. tee, it mast be a long tome in arriving, which made him regret the necessity he had felt himself under, in withdrawing the Bills he had proposed, that might have afforded at least a temporary remedy. The Motion was then agreed to, and the Cornmi:- tee appointed. ALIEN BILL. The Alien Bill was read a third time, en the mo tion of Lord CASTLERIACIII. Lord ALT HOkPE said, that seeing no Or )speet of the rejection of t h is . bill, he wished to do all the practical good in his power, by providing same gourd against its abusive exercise, and with that vazw he proposed a clause to exempt from the opnation of the bill Any aliens resident in this country bt lore the Ist of January, 1816, adding, that although he m a lit:ll44 that period, be should be willing to adopt Ole • Cl W hi