Star. — London, England, 1816-03-13 00:00:00

of li r,cl he fl rf ti: hein a nano—dable consequence of the transition wee es peace. The great demand during a mo t of necessity occasion a rite in the price of . eigtura t produce; and as that rise would, of ' yam . b e g reater in proportion to the length of the so in the same proportion must be the extent the distress when the war should terminate. In T ear 1818, the expenditure in the victualling de. a t om was two millions, in the transport • . one million, and in Ireland one million s here was an expenditure of six millions. This de. , . oust therefore necessarily raise the prices, and lion of such a demand must as necessarily to leech agricultural distress. He had, bow ' 00 doubt but that in the course of the ant year • Imo w ould be mcia materially altered, and his . were founded on the eaferience of for. ' int i o da, In the years 178 g and 1785, the agri aorests of the country were labouring uu- - dismiss equal to thoseatow so justly lamented; t w o mbat that time it was necessary to impale L e ws ! taxes to a considerable amount, the seri awe d the country had since revived and flourish. .4. re so Wept unexampled in our annals. If then, two w ith as increased taxation, the country bad re cooed from ks distresses, he saw no reason now to • , when the next year the burthens would be decreased at least seven millions. The Noble Lord occ luded, by declaring his decided dissialt from the neekla• lase Earl of CAERNARVON contended with Treat ene r s y against the keeping up of a large stand jog 'My m time of peace, as dangerous and uncon stitutional. It had been admitted by his Majesty's • *asters that the country was suffering great and es precedented distress: this then was a subject which w e nded serious inquiry, and he should therefore j ar his hearty concurrence to the motion for going taco a Committee. The Earl of WESTMORLAND considered that , ra sufficient reasons had been given to induce the Bone to a„ieree to the motion of the Noble Duke ; tend c ontended. that the military establishment was slow as rmed the sevrice of the country could possibly be info with lad DARNLEY did not think that the Noble Lord who bad just spoken in reply to his Noble Nod, had weakened any of his Noble Friend's in . The Noble Lord had said, that his Ma. fMinisters would judge what was the peace dshkihment nest consistent with the interests of the mom but be could nut see why other Members eldest House should not be able to form an opinion also. It was not only. as a standing army, iu time . 0 1 p e ace dorms to the liberties of the county y. that the puma enormous establishment was to be ie oes ideeed; bet it was also connected with the finan aid pan of oer system, and at a time when taxation wen so very buithensome tad oppressive. This was a coasiderwion of the first magnitude. The taxation less so row great, tbat to his conviction the revenue I cold nein collected next year. The great military eseablithmeat did not agree with the recommenda tion of iteseemy from the Throne. He could not help conning, that the great military establishment was also iecomistent with the great reduction of the naval estabhoent: they should remember, that the navy had been the pride, the glory, and the strength of England. The Property Tax, if merely a tax on property, and if necessary, and continued only in a time of war, be thought, would not be the most ob jectionable mode of raising a revenue ; but at present it had aeither of these characters, and he therefore thought that Ministers should deter to the opinions of the nation. Besides, this tax would not be pro ductive to the amount calculated. They would find a very great falling off in all the taxes; and the Pro perty Tax, he was sure, would not produce next year say thing nearly half what it did last year. It would, therefore, be uselessly offending the people. Minis.l ens wopld fad they should have recourse to a loan, tee to the Sinking Fund at last, and would it not be loner to do this before than alter wounding the pride feelings of the nation ? The Duke of BEDFORD briefly replied to all the artments against his motion. He was far from throwing the calumny on that great and respectable lay, the Catholics of Irelana, that it was necessary' bkeep up a large army in Ireland, merely on their mint; bat, he said, the frequent refusal of their' *noes for their rights would tend to excite jealousy an discontent. He personally knew the Catholic irdid Ireland, and he Dever could speak or think thai without sentiments of the greatest esteem addefion. He at the same time gave great praise bdeptsent local Government of Ireland, the No. Wm at the head of which he was well =painted' , aid a more amiable, more enlightened, or more imeedeet man, it was impossible for any Govern aare to have at its head. The Chief Secretary. too, ?Wills tribute of applause to; but to the Catho lic' of Ireland he should ever feel attached ; be knew their hearts and their minds, and a more honourable, etre spirited, more noble, or more generous race of Pelt mid no where be found. LYNEDOCH, in consequence of an allusion 4 a Noble Earl below him (Caernarvon), to what "seamed the Military Club, which he supposed to Ito:tweeted with the military spirit of the capital • • to say a few words respecting that lestuti. 114 . In another place a misrepresentation had been !Ilk without any intention, he had no doubt, on teat subject. It had been said that this Institution ' ,_ lB so favoured by an Illustrious Person, who from 1 r exalted station he durst hardly name in that actle• and by another Illustrious Person at the head I c'f ' tile/tem • •y, cr utingutshed for his impartiality in that 'Eh elfice--and when he named this individual, this 'ln sufficient to convince their Lordships that the • could not be true—that there was such a sys ' tic design of supporting this Club by undue in ce entertained M a certain quarter, that every in was used to induce officers to become members It; and not only that, but that returns of the per who acceded, and those who refused, were made and transmitted to the quarter in question. From 7seuation on the Committee of this Club, he knew Boras no authority for the statement; but he had Ndered it his duty, besides , to make every inquiry subject, and thehe could assure the House there t4sn ot the slightest foundation for the imputation r a ivhe_ Illustrious Personages to whom be had I „Z•ica No such reports Earl ever been made. He 7to collect this error whi c h had been adopted also 'Lux most respectable tu palms, coming as it did, ..441nalt ded ' to the House with all the eloquence of a r~ D• . - that vesfiletable pint* by 41 , nat the subject bird been first brought before the poblie. tt l his support to the mo ti on , o f t h e N ,b le l)uke. Wit'. regard to the war be gave iris rt. 'every credit for the able manner in which they ha , l eotroucted it,to sues a prosperous conclusion; in voting for t..e present motion, he did not du so from nay want of confidence in them, hut from a convic tion, that from the difficulties in which Olt: country , were involved, such an inqu;ry was an :rancrious :ay. Their Lordships then divided—Contents 140 Non-Contents 71--Majority ..gains' the motion 60. Adjourned at halt past eleven o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS: The SeuthWark &ids* Bill was read a third Calle and passed. Mr. hot Lame Fos rga took the oaths and his scat for the borough of Greet Yarmouth. Mr. Faults*, from the East India Company, brought up an Account of tilt Company's iteecipts and Disburscluct.ts. Laid • on the 'fable. Mr. CROYER mowed for leave to bring in a Bin !or regu lating the Royal 'Marine Forms, while on sham. The MU was then brought In, and read a tint time, To be read a second tiSe to.ntotrow. Mr. FRANKt.AND LEWIS moved for an Account of the number of Hogshead* of 'tobsee - o, imported Into England hi the Yeats 1 81 4 . IS. and IS; and an Account of the amount of the Duties paid on them Ordered. PROPERTY TAX. Mr. CHARLES GRAN r presented a Petition from the Town of Nairn, against the Property Tax, and praying to be relieved from the excessive burden of taxation with which they were oppressed --Laid on the Table. Mr. W. DOUGLAS presented a Petition from the Borough and Town' of Castle-Douglas, against the tenewal of the Property Tax, under any modifica• tion whatsoever.—Laid on the Table. Mr. HOLME SUMNER presented a Petition from the Freeholders and Inhabitants of the County of Surrey, against the renewal of the Property TAX, under any circumstances, or with any modifications whatever. He said th e Petition complained of the high Peace Establishment in a time of such general distress and pressure. The Meeting, :it which the Petition had been agreed to, was called h; the High Sheriff of the County, and the suhject was fairly and fully discussed, when the Petition was agreed to by the infinitely larger proportion of the Meeting He, therefore, though differing from the Petiilners in every opinion, excepting that of the neces;tty of :he strictest economy, thought it his duty to ~.re,:nt the Petition, and :n stair thus much respecting it. Mr. SAMUEL THORNTON tr , ,te :.st.ninny to the respectability of the Petitioners, arr.t ro the p7oper and decorod manner in which the Petition La., In en agreed to.--The Petition was then livid or* tre Table. Mr. H. SUMNER prescuttd a P...tition horn lie Inhabitants of Chertsey agesiust the Property Tax.— Laid on the Table. Mr. GOULBURN presented a Petition fr..m the Inhabitants of Waltham ag.tinht the Property 'fax.—.- I.aid on the Table. Mr. WALTER BURRELL presented a Petition from the Inhabitants of Brighton against the Property Tax.—. Laid on the Table. Mr. WESTERN presented a petition from the in habitants of the town of Colchester against the Pro perty Tax.—Laid on the table. Sir CHARLES EDMONSTONE presented a petition from Stranraer against th 4 Property Tax.— Laid on the table. Sir MATHEW WHITE presented apetition from Henley-on-Thames against the Property T.ix —Laid on the table. Lord BINNING held in his hand a petition from the County of Berwick, very numercusly and respec tably signed. It represented the Property Tax as a tax most obnoxious, injurious, and unnecessary ; and prayed that if it should be adopted, it shout-, at least, undergo such alterations and modifications as would render it more equal, and Less inquisitorial. The pe tition was then mad, and laid on the table. Mr. JAMES SMITH held in his hand a petition from the town and neighbourhood c.f Nottiugham against the Property Tax, and expressive of much in dignation at having such an inquisitorial unjust, and Oppressive tax proposed in a time of peace. With regard to the indignation expressed by the petitioners, he thought they were perfectly justified in it, by the breach of faith involved in the renewal of this tax.— It was only a war tax, and, therefore, the petitioners were justly indignant at the attempt to renew it in time of peace. The words ‘, and no longer" were to be sure omitted in the last Act ; but he thought the omission, and the argument raised from that omission, unworthy a public officer. He begged leave to call the attention of the House to another part of the petition, because no other petition had taken notice of the subject. It complained of having a large debt remitted to a foreign power (Austria) in a time of such great and unequalled domestic distress. In deed the remission of his debt was most certainly a good ground of complaint on the present occasion, especially when it was considered that the foreign power was one to which we had before lent millions of our money without having ever received payment. The petition also complained of the large military establishment proposed during a time of profound peace, and also of the excess of the Civil List. The military establishment was certainly enormous ;—, double what it had ever been in this country before. Lord KANCLIFFE was bony the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) who had on a former night boasted of the prosperous state of the country, was not in his place : if the Noble Lord was there, he would desire him to go down to the county where the last Peti tion was signed ; he would desire him to enter the doors of the Petitioners, and then he would ask him whether he could find there that prosperity of which Ise had so loudly boasted ?—[Here he read a passage from the present Chancellor of the Exchequer's speech in 1808, where the Honourable Gentleataa acknowledged that the Property Tax was only a War Tax, and ought not Co be renewed in time of Peace.]—He thought it the duty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to represent to his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, that the country was not in the flourishing condition which the Noble Lord bad re presented it to be. General MATHEW did not know how many of his Honourable Countrymen would take any share in the discussion c 4. the Tax; but he was happy to see that there were as yet but two of them, and those two, Ministers, who spoke in favour of this obnoxious measure. It had been said out of doors, that the Noble Lord would make use of the Irish Members to cram this inquisitorial and tyrannical tax down the throats of Englishmen ; but he woula undertake to I a. that this wag a Moil foul libel; for his anon rymen would never be fiend willing to erafa a tai lotvn the throats of otheri which they were not Pre. area to hear their proportion of themselves. He indersto...d that an. Honourable tientlemaa (Mr. Dennirm) had spoked highly of Ireland and Irish. men at he Meettng of the Count* of Surrey on the Property Tax; but that, When the name of Ireland was mentioned, it was received with groans and hisses by the Meeting. He thought the name of drat great and immortal hero, the Duke of Wellington, had res cued his countrymen from the prejudice which wain tertained against them in this country; but be was sorry to find himself mistaken. Yet iF the Irish Mem bmi voted for this tax they would afford a ground of prejudice against them; but sure he was they would not. l'be liberal and enlightened representatives of a great and generous nation would not become the tools of any Minister in such an odious measure. It was said out of doors, that they would be satisfied to shift the load from their own shoulders on those of English men ; but he would say, that this was not their usual conduct since they had the misfortune of being forced to that House contrary to their wills and contrary to their interests, and also to the interests of this country and of the empire in general—(!/ e a r , hear, hear.)— Yes, he would repeat, contrary to their wills and in terests and to the interests of the empire—and be beg ged of the House to attend to what he then prophe sied, that, if the Union was not speedily repealed, the empire would be soon shaken to its deepest foun dations, for six millions of people would not long bear , o be tyrannised over. It was by some said, that the Irish Members had no right to vote on this ques tion, as itwas Altogether a question bearingon England. He would insist they had a right to vote on every question that was.discussed in the Parliament of the Empire, since they had the misfortune, he would repeat, of being forced to this country, of being, as it were, driven from their native land ; yet if the Irish Members lent themselves to Ministers to carry this odious and detestable Tax, which it was well known could not be carried contrary to the unanimous voice of this country without them, they would increase the prejudice which was entertained against them in this country. But he was sure they would not lend tht.anselves to such dirty work. If the people of Leland were in the situation of this country with regard to sach a detestable measure as this Tax, they would bitterly and justly complain of English Mem bers, if they voted for the imposition of such a Tax oa Ireland, while they themselves should remain free from it. Bat his countrymen would not suffer such disgrace- to be attached to their names. The Irish nation were natural enemies to tyranny and oppres ' sion ; and this Tax was in the highest degree tyran nical and oppressive. He would advise his Honour. able Countrymen, if they did not vote against this measure, at least not to vote for it.. He would sap to them—" Tell the Minister that it is altogether an English question, that it is an inquisitorial and tyran nical Tax—that you are the representatives of great, and generous, and enlightened people; and that you never will lend yourselves to force such a measure, down the throats Qt Englishmen."— (Hear, hear.) Mr. FINLA I wished t o set t h e House right with respect to a statement made last night when the Pe-1 titions from Glasgow were presented. It had been said that that part of the country, and the city of Glasgow more particularly, paid less than their share of the Property Tar; and that the Property Tax paid by them did not amount to so much as their House Tax. He thcught it right to state that in Scotland, at least in the city of Glasgow. the people paid as much in proportion to their means as in London, or in arty other part of England. It was only accessary for him, in support of this averment, to mention that the proportion of the Tax paid by persons engaged in trade and manufactures, Sm. in Glasgow, amounted to double the sum raised from the same class in Man chester, though the trade of Manchester was , the double of that of Glasgow. The statement in ques tion had therefore been made with a total absence of all knowledge on the subject. Mr. FREEMANTL E, in allusion to what had fallen from the gallant G eneral, respecting an Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Dennison) who had spoken at the ' Surrey Meeting, begged to assure the Honourable Member, that that Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Den. nison) had spoken with the highest respect and vene ration of Ireland and Irishmen. General MATHEW, is explanation, said that he had mentioned so, and that he gave the Honourable Gentleman every credit for his liberality. The Petition was then read and laid on the table. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY presented a Petition from the inhabitants of the Town of Ludlow against the increased duty on Spirits.—Laid on the table. A Petition was presented from Boston against the Insolvent Debtors' Act. Colonel WOOD presented a Petition from Hay, in Brecknockshire, against the Property Tax. The titian stated, that the Petitioners heard with surprise and astonishment that Ministers intended to continue this Tax in a time of Peace; it also stated the great distress of the Petitioners. The Honourable Gentle. man, though he differed in opinion with the Petitioners, thought it his duty to present the Petition. He said , the Malt Tax would have no chance of being re moved if the Propeyty Tax was rejected; and the Horse Tax pressed more heavily on the tenantry of Brecknockshire than the Property Tax did. If the peace establishment were reduced at the present mo ment, when there were so many hands already out of employ, it would increase , the Poor Rates, and be an additional burden on the country. • Sir C. MORGAN knew that many of the inhabi tante of Brecknockshire were not able to pay the Property Tax, even by a sale of their goods. He had voted against the establishment, because he did not think there was any danger to be apprehended from abroad.—The petition was then read and laid on the table. Lord STANLEY presented a petition from Man ehester against the Property Tax. His Lordship commented at great length on different parts of the petition, which he said was most respectably signed, and deserved the greatest attention of the House. Mr. PHILLIPS, after mentioning that the Bo rough %relics would not convene a Meeting for this petition, though they had received a It-spisition. .signed by 120 respectable Freeholders Cisretio, that the petition was signed by 1600, and would' (le as readily signed by 16, , .100, it iite petition had not been sent up to London in a hurry. The Ho-1 autirable Gentleman observed, that salary of office hta 'considerably increased. while every thing else had experienced a very, great reduction. The country was is a state of calamitous adversity, and eosin prosperity. as the people were told at the open. ing of the Session. There had been no evidence of economy on the part of the Ministers. The house hold troops, the most expensive of ally, were doubled, and there was an increase in the Civil List of di'277,000, yet econntre; was recommended by the Prince Regent. He could not anticipate an end to the multiplied expenses which the c-suntry was likely to groan under, and imputed to the Government a constant inclination for I..vish expenditure. It had been said that the Property rax was not a tax on in. come ; but he maintained it was nos oily a tax on income. but a tax where there was no come at all. He hoped the landholders would not be deluded to separate their interest from the commercial body, hut, that both would unite in opposing that system tie op. pressive taxation which was carried to so akirming an extent. So large was the sum given for the Wirtern berg Army, that the States claimed the surplus; in fact, he would agtin repeat, that be could see no end of this profusion. Lord CASTLEREAGH would submit it to the candour of the House if al I 2s. a man, the propor tion granted for the Wirtemburg at my, was not as low as could be allowed, considering that in this coon. try we could not bring a soldier into the field uuder £BO, and the expense on the Continent could not be less than from £4O to 4150. With respect to the Hanoverian troops, they only received the difference between Jej I 2s. and their actual expenditure. Mr. PIIILLIPS and Lord CASTLEReAdlltzalAined. Mr. BROUGHAM said. the Nob Lord van.. plained of inconvenience arising from the discussion on the petitions, but he wished to refute this ductrme, and would tell the Noble Lord that his nsistAkes could no be corrected without it. Sir WALTER STIRLING supported the Pro. poly Tax, and gave Ministers credit for their whole conduct. Sir ROBERT PEEL adverted to the general dis. tress of the manufacturers, and said, that the pres. sure of the times was particularly felt in Manch< st:•r. He hoped Ministers wuuid not continue to oppress a class of people who were ever ready to lend them their willing support. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER cautioned the House against giving credit to loose assertions. He mainta►ned, that the only excestes rn the Civil List, during the years 1812 and 1813, were those arising from our various and complex mega ciations. The salAries of the Judges, and of the per. sons composing the Royal H )usehold continued the same, and it was the diplomatic branches alone by which extraordinary expenses had been incurred. H• did not believe the assertion, though it certainly had the appearance, that this was a conspiracy of the ricts against the poor ; but he would insist, twit no tax could be proposed which would come with less weight on the poorer classes. The Right Hon. G •ntlem.tn observed, that he would specify in the Preamble of a 13ill what his intentions were. Mr. BROUGHAM wished to know if any part of the 277 thousand pounds was to be applied to pay off formr arrears ? . The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. said. there west: no aunts. during the years 1812 and 1813. Mr. BENNET expressed his deep astonieument, that notwithstanding the general cruiviciion which pervaded his side of the Hause, and indeed the whole country, the Chancellor of the Exchequer should persist in denying he had given any pledge to the Country for the annihilation of the Property rat.— He could appeal to every dispassionate candid per son, who was then present, whether such a ple , gs was not given in the most pointed manner?—(Hear). Lord FOLKESTONE said, no than could witness the extravagance of the Civil List without reprobat. ing, in the severest terms, the conduct of all connect ed with it. He denied the assertion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that this Tax did not affect the manufacturer. Every man knew that it did. He also deprecated the attempt so often made to separate the interests of 'rich and poor. It was an attempt detestable and base, in the extreme,- pregnant with the most mischievous consequences to the country...-. Were we to be told that the poor were not affected by it ? Go then to the habitations of such people, see the wretchedness they are at present labouring under from want of employment—see the catalogue ,of crimes swollen to an unparalleled size, and ask whether in the seizure of the rich man's property, the poor man is not script of his all ?—(Hear, Hear.) The crime, for example, of poaching, had increased to an extravagant degree, and this, with every other crime to which the poor industrious starving media. nic was often driven to perpetrate, was the baneful consequence, not merely of the Property Tar, but of all the burdens imposed by the War.—(Near, hear.) Lord BINNING was decidedly of opinion, that no pledge whatever had been given. or could be given, by Ministers ; and he ousted that what his Hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had proposed, would be accepted by the House and coun. try as a proof of his sincere desire to promote the best interests of all. Mr. FINLAY could not suppress his astonishment at the unfunded statement given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer at the commencement of this busi ness, namely, that the tax was not oppressive to ma. nufacturers. Indeed if the tax was levied accertling to law -it would nor, but the 'mariner in which that law was practised, was ruinous to manufacturer and mechanic. (Rear, law) No argument could be brought to prove the contrary. With respect to ma. nufacturers, it was well known that the law made no exception in their favour, in cOnsequence of any less t Ley might sustain in machinery. Now it was well known that many manufacturers were compelled to pay when they were actually considerable 'them Besides, the 'l'ax was not on property but on income (kar), and of consequence was the source of many evils. It became the prelude to every deliberate !rand and deceit. He abhorred the idea of thus sep.lrating ;he otherwise indissoluble interests of pr ,r and rich, ' And contended, there was not a is - Acuson in London who earned 25 or Su shillings a week, who w.ss not :run by it. He denied the neccsiiir of alai audition wing made to the other taxes, sh , nrid the one on pro. perty be abolished. Tit,• pour w4re laboorinb 'paler extreme distress, from which they certainly were en. :Wed to a little re yite. ' Mr. me,THuEN said, that taxation Woolf Alifiii