Star. — London, England, 1819-07-27 00:00:00

pro ai : Aare ::blindartly than the present arrange t, zy ma to be coasuoicil. I ,,iehinery and rroductive power from science cannot rritraincd without creating still greater evils. e' if ,seieutiliz productions could be limited, it would be ~.e t.. !unlit t herm, because as they increase abundance !,.. y ought, and may be made to be, highly useful to 411 ranks and classes. • • pmpi r and natural relief from the existing na :•• ptiT it c judicious practicable means by which • .1 without injury to :Any individual, consumption the pre-i•it; power of pruttnction, and after -I.e.T co-J.:dime ,. with it. applied to rractice will elevate the whole ~; - 1 1 , the orpot.itc principle, now in practice, •. lc the great mass of the people to deacend • ,•• ••• win•ry. be dope, it will, o:, ad.:;it tt d, that effectual can be done ;r,..tt rbange a change even from adversity A mi , rt has prorogued without adopting any rtnef fur the Poor; and thus has h been ! t: at toe Liovvrnment and the Legislature ti tl knowledge of the Poor and NVorh. • i• •!o-c-ios, to devis.... measures for reii,f. t ht tiles.' observations, either 1 ,- !.:t. Cie I.•_.gislature: I :newly state in-ti;tr,d by all. -trc:innt,inct, an individual unconnec !. but who has devoted nearly thirty years !•,.• on the cubji et, and to acquire an a;:c1- ;led circumstancgs of the Poor and • • mode of relief to the Public, on the , :umption eqoal to prosb,ction, and after .r and uniform increase to both, by which 'i be abundantly creati..d, and the country : r I .O rreert :; , final (inns net whit t conceal from the -•,,, will m ., re or Its; affect every class au.: , 11 that he l'eliey(K, without a shadow of !:is own mind, that no individual of any !•the4: to the lowest, suffer by the his convictioL. ruw i: , perfect that all 1.. t%, he desirPs rn conPderrt te be placed clear and stroag it roa r • ; but he d intelligent LI. parties, a i • tid; ext?rded and r,•,rtcta`de investi• e • ,ivies c 4 thr c• -Intr . . are ca urgtr.t, tha. ...tr., of lon7yr v::periment ; and a sound si•hk..t afh.:cting all tLe eit:l in. ~..ght to be formed only after such au the book of this dibtinsuish*d philanthropi • st with o predetermination to disbelieve his statements. Bit it was said that this Plan was exceptionable, because truly it would — serve to render men machines. He, however, would approve of it on that very ground, for what rational objection could be urged against making men machines under the regulation of virtue and industry. If, indeed, men were not machines, they must be savages. For by education they were made machines, and reared into a state of civilization. The Honourable Baronet ridiculed the objection to this Plan, that it would interfere with the freedom of the people, observing, that it was at the option of any individual to enter into the proposed Establish trent, or to leave it. Ile panegvrized the conduct of Mr. Owen, who could not, with any fairness, be deemed a visionary, as he had reduced his theory to practice, which it had undergone for fifteen years, without having a criminal prOcess instituted against any member of his Establishment. But the great diffi'cuity urged against the extension of Mr. Owen's system, was money, as he understood. Yes, money could be had for any object in this country, but for that of relieving the poor—(Applause).--. Millions were squandered upon wars and public esta blishments—whole streets were pulled down to make an avenue for the gratification of peculiar fancy— (l...;rrl apelausel )—but when money was required for the benent of the Poor, then and only then it was not forthcoming—then and. only then Government could not afford to be generous—,tapplauses). In support ing the views of Mr. Owen, he felt that he was in the right course ; and so feeling, no consideration what ever should withdraw him trom his purpose, especi ally in following a than, who had, according to his convicnoa, done as much good for the poor as any one exi 'zing. He was indeed the more determined in his conduct, from the example of the Illustrious Per sonage in the Chair, who was always active in the cause of chaeity, and who had, on this occasion, in despite of prejudice, stood boldly forward in the same cause—(applause). No prejudice, however, should discourage Mr. Owen. But no prejudice seemed to damp his honest ardour. On the contrary, indeed, his confidence and perseverance appeared to increase with the difficulties which he had to encounter. He could have the heartfelt satisfaction of sitting down in his mansion and viewing the work of his own be nevolent hands : he could say, " These people call me their benefactor, their parent ; I have taken them from the cells of want and wretchedness, and ha; , e transplanted them into a place of industry, virtue, and happiness." May the endeavours (said the lion. Baronet) of this Champion of the Poor be crowned . with success ! Though sneered at by some, there was a limo above who looked on his labours with diffe rent eyes, and who would in the end reward them— (loud and lo;:g-continaeil plaudits). The Honour able B tronet concluded with proposing the following Resolution : Resolved—llat Repnrt of the Committee nominated by the Select Meeting held at Freemasons' Hall, on the 26th day of June List, as row read, be confirmed and approved. Mr. Too KE, in seconding the motion, expressed his confident anticipation of its unanimous adoption, ad ding, that e.r. appeal for any generous purpose was never made to a public Meeting of Englishmen in vain, as appeared from various cases of recent occur rences, as well in the course of the war, as since the conclusion of the peace. The CHAIRMAN expressed a hope, that nothing of a political or irrelevant nature,. likely to disturb the harmony and goood humour of the Meeting would be introduced in the course of the discussion. Mr. J. LOWE bore testimony to the benevolent in tentions of Mr. Owen, but still could not help ex pressing his dissent from that Gentleman's views. The plan, indeed, appeared to him quite impracti cable. In answer to a question from Major Torrens, Mr. Owen stated, that the commodities produced in his Establishment might be sold elsewhere, as well as in that Establishment. If so, those products would come into competition with the articles - which were already so cheap in the market, that the workmen who made them could not live upon the wages which their employers could afford to give them. How, then, could such a plan operate to relieve . the poor ? -But if the population of Mr. Owen's Establishment should increase beyond its power of production and subsistence, what was to become of the redundancy? His main objection, however, to the plan under con sideration was its tendency to destroy that spirit of independence which was the best support of every manly feeliag and honest principle. Such a system, to any extent, was altogether, in his view, unsuited to any old established community, although it might answer in a new society, such, for instance, as that xhich was about to settle at the Cape of Good Hope. Mr. THELWALL maintained that it was not the ten dency of Mr. Owen's plan to make men machines in the common acceptation of the word ; for although men might be mere machines in certain manufacto ries, as in that of pins at Birmingham, it was the object of Mr. Owen to promote intellectual cultiva tion as well as manual labour. It was the object, indeed, of that philanthropist to have that good done to mankind which constituted the true idea of reli gion and morality, and when the many-headed mul titude were educated, they could not fail to be ser viceable to the rich as well as to themselves. Mr. BAPTIST proposed to submit a plan to the con sideration of the Meeting, with regard to which lie had had a correspondence with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and this plan was, he said, the fruit of twenty years of diligent reflection and practical examination. Mr. Itowenorr however rose to order, observing that it would answer better to communicate the Ho nourable Gentleman's plan to the Committee, as that Meeting was assembled to decide upon a particular plan, and as the business could not possibly be gone through if the twenty or thirty plans which he under stood were in the room should be separately discpssed. Mr. BAPTIST consented to withdraw his proposi tion, observing that he could propose an expedient' , for raising the money to carr y Mr. Owen's plan into', the most extensive effect within seven years. Sir J. J. CLARK proposed the second Resolution; as follows, after defending Mr. Owen from the charge of being a visionary : That, in pursuance of the recommendation contained in such Report, this Meeting is of opinion, that it is desirable that an, Establishment or. Mr. Owen's plan should be founded by way of experiment and which it is confident expected the public and t o the promoters of it. MY. CHARLES GREY seconded the prOposition. now to the uttermost, and see if it i , ifluenced by any private motive or t• t , • r. Lis motives comm. he impugned, if his tly Wei, it the , ountry is in general " And he only a-dts for investigation, • L.T.iiry which he 50!ic;ts? .1 sot to continue, when a Gentle lossiag question to him :—" I wish to m 'inner liberty of conscience is to proposed Establishment ?" was to Mr. OWLN by the NV!:0 .liservc.l, that it was a point t.•11:1 be desirable, and on it would be teadily given. ,—" 1 am glad the question has been much &sliged to the Gentleman who cal rele state, that for the twenty 1 have presided over the Estab ..av I. teti':, I have not known in any orderly, industrious, or as those who are there cm- V.! Many of them arc from the North yid do not understand a word of Eng- TA. (;ael;c, and with the concurrence :s, who have given me the most able this, as in every thing else, I have en-' to instruct them in their own I is their native language (Loud cheers.) l al:die:Atkin has been made to me on religion, I have always endeavoured to Taagements, as that each individual betty to worship GOD in his own way. state, that my own is a house of daily , hear.) But, Gentlemen, let me not' 1 possess a knowledge which is not ni therefore not appreciated. Thai Is me to adopt certain principles, but . convince me that. I am wrong, I shall mod avow it." Mr. Owen then went on 12 state of the inhabitants of New La c t religious feeling. In that estab ..i.erved,whetetherewerenotlessthantwo red persons, there never was known t religious animosity. There were in the A:1 English church and two chapels, :ould he more interesting than to see of New Lanark walking two and two :o those places of worship. At the first topped and said, "Good morning, I am !." Others went on to the next, and to the third; and at their return, one ne that they were all of one religious The great part of them were ,ished Church in that part of the country, The worthy Gentleman concluded ing his readiness to give any further ex at might he required of him." it111;s asked whether it was contempla- Owen, that the commodities produced in 'meat, should be consumed within that et, or taken for sale elsewhere? s answered, that those commodities were id of in one or the other way, or both, as or circumstances of the situation might .e added, that he would not attempt in to lead the people astray. As Parlia iver, had separated without doing any ive fur the relief of the poor, which he without meaning any thing disrespectful Parliament or the Government, but as I fact, he hoped that a fair trial would be ; plan for that purpose—that an inquiry nsT ituted with regard to the merits or prac that plan, and this was all that he required. 1)'. CnktsetoNv in rising to propose the Ition, took occasion to vindicate his con lathing Owen's plan to the considera i lo use of Cummoos. The time was now set ved, when there was as absolute neces an iinverative duty, to consider the situa poor. For their distress was unparalleled, U•li tot th sufferings of their fellow crea ci-ncur wit.' their Illustrious Chairman in adopt means for the relief of that distress. I n o t, however, approve of the expedient 7 (lovernment of transporting the people land to a foreign country and un climate. For such a system was, in his atreniely degrading—( Loud plaudits).— thcreicn-e, rather recommend a trial of Mr. an, 1 , -ainst which, he was sorry to say, sen:ekss prejudices, that many read Mao Toilet** rose- for the purpose of giving his treks or th is tottntlta-ebtst, ttbf l ottniiitelys lt f rapes humble support to the Resolution, and of stating, at ration can be only partial, and it muse still leas, the same time, the extent to which he agreed with incalculable quantity .of misery unrelieved. Mr. Owen, and the reasons which induced him to I must confess that it has appeared to the exttemely dissent on some points. It was ratifying to reflect unaccountable, that in all the projects which have on the readiness with which their Rosal Chairman . been brought forward for the relief of the poor ; ne and all his illustrious relatives gave their countenance one has ever advised any scheme for colonising them to every plan for the relief of the tfistressed ; it was according to a rational, systematic, and vell-digestect gratifying to the poor to be assured in their distress, plan, upon the waste lands of England, and the hogs that the sanction of the highest authority Vsould be of Ireland. What, Sir, must the poor be lanished given to every proposal for their assistance. Nor thousands of leagues beyond the seas, to put so simple should the proposer on this occasion be forgotten. a problem as that of colonising them upon unculti- Mr. Owen was a surprising man—persevering in his vited nand into execution ? Is it imagined that a exertions, and when opposed only exhibiting fresh poor man cap. fertilise no land except opon the torrid ardour. Whether right or wrong, there was a moral shores of Africa ? Will not his native land grant grandeur in his character; and when we reflected on him the same returns she has granted to his ancestors, the philanthropy of his motives, we might well ex- if he cultivates her with the same diligence y What cuse the virtuous enthusiasm of laying the flattering were the greater part of the lands of the kingdom, unction to his soul that he was the high priest of reason. which now smile ur der luxuriance and verdure, a It was not his intention to represent Mr. Owen as an few centuries ages—were they not barren, bare and enthusiast ; he thought, indeed, that Mr. Owen had unproductive as Hounslow Heath, cr any other invented an admirable machine for the cultivation of commonage in England ? What has brought them 'the human mind. The gallant Major then expatiated to their present fertility, and made them produce at some length on several parts of Mr. Owens plan, the food of millions ? Was it not' the poor man's and tecommended the founding of one village as an hands—the sweat of the labourer's brow ? But it experiment. He must, however, enter his protest may be said that in all those instances capital had against attempting to abolish pauperism, and the been advanced for the employment of labour . poor rates, by this system of moral training. That And, Sir, will the Government advance no capital proposal appeared altogether visionary, and more except to banish its poor subjects to inhospitable than Mr. Owen could accomplish, unless he ivere shores, and to an uncongenial clime? or to support loinnipetent. Mr. Owen ascribed these evils to the them, at home by a contribution of annual millions, use of machinery, but he (Major Torrens) thought it in idleness, ignorance, and vice? If it were not to was machinery alone that enabled us to support under occupy too much of your time, I could shew you the them. The principal reason, in his opinion, why fallacy of that idea, which lam sorry to say is gee there was not support for all the population of this nerally entertained—that waste lands will not often• country was, that we had cultivated land worse cal- times re-produce the food that is expended in cults. 1 culated for cultivation than any other land in Europe, vating them. If such an opinion were founded in and people consequently were induced to transfer truth, it would long since have interdicted the ims 'their capital to other countries where land was more provement of millions of acres of waste land in Eng. productive. The next cause was, the erroneous sys- land, of moss lands in Scotland, and of bogs iii Ira term of our Commercial Laws, by which the neces- land. I maintain that they will in all cases repay caries of life were enhanced in price; and the third the food expended on them ; and in this principle I cause was the pressure of the taxes. These causes behold a provision for the poor, capable of being induced people to transfer their capital to countries created by their own labour, if properly directed.-- in which land was more productive, trade more free, I come now, Sir, to consider the extent of that pro. and taxes less oppressive. Now, these being three vision which exists in both these kingdoms, and it great causes of excessive population, poverty, and may surprise you when I state, that it is much More poor rates, he would ask Mr. Owen how his plan than sufficient to create support for four times the could obviate any one of them? (Mr. Owen, Very number of paupers we have in both countries. Mr, easily.") If it could be done easily, then certainly Spence asserts (by the way, I beg to say that lam • Mr. Owen did not possess the talent of expressing no patron of this Gentleman's reasonings) that there himself very clearly, for he had attended most care- are '22 millions of acres of waste land in Great Britain. folly to all Mr. Owen's details, and had not heard Suppose that there is.less than one-third of this quart one Plan for inducing Parliament to forego the tax tity, or seven millions—and let us take the calc ula. upon soap, salt, or any other necessary orlife. His tions of Mr. Arthur Young and several practical far plan, as far as agriculture was concerned, would mers into consideration, who agree in saying that never counteract the principle, that land becomes less every acre .of waste land taken into cultivation is suf. atid less productive as a larger capital is employed in it. licieut to afford sustenance to three individuals--why, Again, with regard to manufactures, if he confined according to these calculations, these seven million. the consumption of them to the village itself, he ne- of acres, if cultivated, would yield support to twenty cessarily abandoned the division of labour which in- one millions of population. Let us now turn our eyes creased the productive powers of the human hand.--- to Ireland, and permit me to observe, that as lam It would be necessary, under such a system, that an Irishman, I beg to take the distress of my native every man should apply to more than one trade, and, country into consideration. The Commissioners for consequently, could not acquire that miraculous dea- surveying the Bogs of that country have reported terity and expedition which were acquired by the di- that there are 2,800,000 acre. of this kind of ground vision of labour. If, on the other hand, he did not capable of being. rought into cultivation, and that confine the consumption to the village itself, but went one million of acres of th em had been already drained to other: markets with his manufactures, what was to and levelled, Here then -we have, ready cut and become of the villagers when there was a glut in these dry (to use a‘tulgar expression), an untouched power markets ? He would shortly state what, in his bpi- of raising subsistence, according to the foregoing cal. nion, would reduce the number of paupers and the culatiens, for three millions of the poor of that cotin. poor-rates. He would first propose an alteration of try. I speak from experience and facts, when I as our Commercial Laws, by which greaterreturns might seat that the bog-lands of Ireland can be fertilised at be given on capital, and persons thus prevented from a most trifling expense. The government of Eng. vesting their money in foreign loans. 'Notwithstand- land could relieve, Sir, the distresses of that country ing what had been said by the Hon. Baronet, he at a most trifling sacrifice; but I fear when I ask as• would not refrain from stating his opinion, that the sistance for the poor Irish, I ask a boon which will plan for promoting emigration was the best plan that not be granted. England glories in assisting dis could have been adopted by Government. tressed humanity in all parts of the world e xce pt i n Mr. THELWALL, in explanation, animadverted upon her sister kingdom. While the lavishes her treasures what he termed the hard-hearted and immoral system upon the sufferers of Leipsic, the pillaged Russians, of Professor Malthus, who still, he thought, .wrote and the desolated Tyrolese—the sufferings of Ireland with very good intentions. But as no nation had never cost her a guinea or a pang, although deep and ever experienced the evils which that writer had an- overwhelming is her disease and distress. While she ticipated from his mathematical calculations, it would seeks out the wretched in the most distant kingdoms, be absurd in his opinion to act upon the apprehen- she passes by in silent neglect the groans and lumen lions which they were meant to produce. tations of her nearest neighbour—and pours balm into Mr. SAUNDERS.—In taking leave to intrude myself every wound except that of the poor Irishman's, upon the notice of this Meeting, I must solicit their which has been opened and bled in fighting for Eng indulgence, for lam not in the habit of public speak- land's honour and glory. (Here the Chairman in ing, and never before in my life addressed so nume- formed this Gentleman who was proceeding in the rous an assembly. I labour cinder apprehension, that I above strain, that he was going too much into a po may not be able to explain m y sentiments, either accord- li ti cal discussion ; several voices calling on him to ing to my wishes, or to the satisfaction of my hearers. proceed, he continued.) The details of the population I cannot, however, miss an opportunity of testifying of Ireland are but little known, observes a very erni my admiration of Mr. Owen's zeal, assiduity, and per- nent writer, of the present day. Yes, Sir, the state severance in the cause of humanity. Indeed, I should of that unfortunate country is but little enquired into, suppose, that I only participate in a. general feeling. and lam sorry to say, that this enlightened Gentleman Whatever opinions we may severally indulge as to has imitated his predecessors in this respect. While the practicability of this worthy Gentleman s plans, he enters into minute details of the state of the Sava we must all agree in admiring the benevolent motives ges of the South Sea Islands, and the North Ame of their author. lam of opinion, that one of the rican Indians, Ire apportions but a few invectives to chief merits of Mr. Owen's plans consists in their the state of the people of Ireland, and attributes all aiming not only at educating the par, but in making their miseries, to what ? to the extended • use of them a reproductive class of laboureri iii the corn- potatoes, and violently protests against their intro munity. Indeed, had this Meeting been convened ducticn into England as the food old the poor, lest for the purpose of considering hew to raise hew they may bring with them what he is pleased to term poverty, - I should be one to '" the rags and wretched cabins, and squalid fil t h an d g ta i x v e e s th for em th m e ysumppoostrt of decided opposition ; for I trust, .disgusting wretchedness of the poor of Ireland." Could after all that has been written and , publicly . said this Lear ned Gentleman find no other cause for the on this subject, that there is no enlightened person, poverty of Ireland but the plenty of its sttbsistence ? who does not consider all taxes and gratuithus dOiia- (Here he was again interrupted.)—Well then, Ladies tions for the relief of poverty, as so many aihnents and Gentlemen, as you will not permit me-to plead in to nurture its growth and promote its expansion, behalf of the distresses of my country, permit me to which, under such a system, will . cause pau- observe to you, that I have thrown together some perism to become a dreadful Hydra, which will thoughts upon the subject of colonizing the poor upon finally devour the whole products of this land.— waste lands, but of which 1 cannot at present take No scheme,' says Mr. Ricardo (one Oldie most en- time to give you an outline. Let me also inform lightened economists of the present day), merits the you, that accident, a short time ago, led me to visit a least of our attention, which has-not the abolition of colony of paupers which has been established a short the Poor Laws for its object; and he is the best friend time back in Holland—in cultivating waste land— to humanity, who can point out how this can be and that it presented me with the most pleasing sight effected In the most gentle and gradual manner.'— my eyes ever beheld—l arrived there to see some This, Sir, I am of opinion', can never be brought hundreds of my fellow creatures who had been res. about, except by making the poor reproduce their cued from the lowest abyss of vice and misery_ own subsistence, or making them, some how or other, living in the most condisrertle houses—nourished on to become reproductive labourers. Towards the the best and most wholesome focal—clothed most close of this last Session of. Parliament, the Chan- comfortably with excellent materials—working with cellor of the Exchequer brought forward a motion, to the greatest zeal and willingness, as the lords and enable part of our redundant population to erni- proprietors of the soil which they were cuitivat -grate, and form Colonies at the Cape of Good Hope ; ing—and proceeding beyond the most sanguine and, although some Gentlemen, have been pleased expectations of their benefactors. They were des to pass some animadversions on this plan to-day at tined to repay them ali the expenses of their co. this meeting, I look upon it, that it was one of lonization. I took minute details of the measures the the only meaus left him to relieve part of the dis- Society arc taking to fulfil this end ; and if any of my S:r, • :I, .; • 2- r ; ( •:1;I: . .:.! .; i. 11; 1 at. N• 0, (i) ..`t 01 . • : p• .!! :r.crs in LI ,•. A l I..rg ::.:1:1d an %. lich an • h.tre lib s' :No you. 'rs:oo,l, 'ledge lea, uy one CL:i Admit ai thz with ;Hind five: leeiing of ..%bo.itrhout nothing el i thAbitatv.' inlays to ize some St( ,g in here. again • . nuagm •-• I.l;tabli • l~a:Vllil St. ••ores,it • . i.t LOH. • Ir. • .It. Ow Es be i••.c. Ile 01 • 1 ,tance b .t, a :,(„ wd w lat• 1 .. be in 711 ‘ . •l. tic' licsoi lit ,itor • I'2 I) l t}• , v. a a cer. I hz •.. c • . . 14, ‘‘' t • • • it l y e. :tl bt • tr tieh• c I ,vw .‘ • .1.1, • tiros r 01.0; 1 , • i, • I t , LI • • I. 4 • . I .; • I , I I e •1 r • • •t • • ;; j • I :1 4 I. ! •: • , • • ' • I. • • , 1. , I (I ', I 11 t