Star. — London, England, 1811-01-03 00:00:00

r USE OF LORDS, JANUARY S. At Ater o'clock a number of Peers attended in their ple:es, and the Lord Chancellor took his seat on the Woolsack. After prayers were read, the The Earl of Dartmouth (late Lord Lewisham) was sworn, and took his seat in the room of his father, the late Earl. No business being betore the House, and no communication being made Irons the Commons, an adjournment (till to-morrow; teak place. Their Lordships stand summoned for Friday. i HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. LUSHINGTON presented himself at the bar !of the House with the Report of the Committee on the State of the Nation. f The SPEAKER put the question " that the v Re port be brought up." Mr. MORRIS thought that a proper opportunity for expressing his sentiments. After the very lumi nous exposition of all the precedents on the subject which had been made by an Hon. Friend of his, be felt not only that he was relieved from the necessity of going into a detail on that bead, but that it would ' be presumption in him to take up the time of the House. He should only observe, that in no former Ilik. instance had restrictions been imposed of the nature 14 those now submitted to their approbation. He 'thought it proper to notice ,;Le statement that bad • been made of a supposed Peerage having been created by Parliament, It such was really the fact, it should appear that restrictions of a similat nature had been imposed on a former Regent. On looking closely into the subject, it would be found that the Peerage alluded to had been created in presence of Parliament, •O n of by Parliament, but by the authority of the Regent and his Council. From the circumstances of the times. to which such ft equent reference had been made, the precedents brought forward had less influence on his mind-than those of a more recent date, such as the Succession Act, passed in the reign of Queen Anne, and the Regency Acts, as modem the reign of ^Second, and in that of the present King. provision was made for a Regency in Ince, there was a probability that the Regent would expire in one month— t, as its duration was but to occupy I igh? elapse, before the King could , ver ; yet the power of creating peers In the acts of the late and present fictive provisions bad been thought ;hose precedents with him outweighed r 1788. The distinction made wee, Imes a provision had been made for . .egency, but that be contended bad no niestion before them ; what he main there should b e no irititatlon of the the mode in which it should be ex question. In the present instance, all hands, that the'Prince of Wales :egent. It was admitted that he (ought to have power to dissolve a factious I - louse of aCommons, and on the same constitutional principle that gave him that power the Constitution gave him the right of creating Peers to prevent undue influence. -against the measures in the Howie of Lords. 'They were not justified in legislating on individual charac. ter, that ought on both sides to be left entirely out of the question. This, however, had not been done ;-a as while they Were told they ought not to suffer them selves to be influenced by any consideration of the ' virtues of the Prince, Ministers brought forward per tonal considerations on their own side of the question. Be could not but think the restrictions proposed were insulting to his Royal Highness, without answering any one good purpose, as while they betrayed a sus. picion that theerust confided to him would be abused,: 1 they did not effectually guard against the abuse. He had no difficulty in giving his assent to the amended resolution as it stood ; but if it went to girt the Coun ' eil a right of deciating the restoration of the King to competence independent of Parliament, he should think his duty called upon him. to give it all the oppo sition in his power. Mr. P. MOORE, after duly considering the sub ject, rose, authorised by iris constituents, who had ' ed lresaed him on the subject, to protest in the strong est manner against the proceedings of Ministers. The point to which their attention ought to be directed t'ac. to the. restoration of the esecutave power without delay. He had voted in his place for two of the ad journments, and in doing so he had been sorry to find lie differed from many of his Honourable Friends, Ind in particular he regretted that he differed from his Hen. friend the Member for Bedford, far whose strong understanding, and accurate judgment, he b r ad always felt the greatest deference, while his unsullied integrity, in public and private life, entitled himeo admiration In that instance, however, he had thought him wrong, but on looking. more closely into the re. ports of the Physicips, he had found that he himself head been wrong, aa that his Hon. ft iend was right. Ministers had imposed on the Public, and, from the reports, he- now found that advantages had been, taken of the infirmities of his Majesty, and that every one had been allowed to put his hand in the public . parse .without controul, and phice it to the account of the Royal Prerogative. This system had been carried on so far, that a poor man in Ireland, who had been long imprisoned without cause, was stopped short when alanit to disclose some such tranaacttons, and tall, " You will nut be allowed to speak ateainst Lord Hardwicke's Administration." lie wished the /louse to see how many petitions had been granted— tow many warrants h:td been issued within the period ia which he alluded : no less a sum than £iCat,4B,ooo ' lied been so disposed of, and acquittances givento the ,parties. This fraud had been committed on the pub lic ; he could prove it, and if called upon, he would 'read the proofs (which were in his possession) to the }louse. The Hon. Gentleman here expressed his grief on account of the cal unity which had fallen on The Kirr,, and proceeded to observe, that great pains had been taken to represent his subjects as disaffected m o h re bellious, at.a time when their conduct was dis tiaguislied by the most patient sufferance and by the si:cerest affection. This too had been done at a time when their petitions could not reach the Monarch, when it was impossible for them to get beyond the desk in the Secretary of State's Office. In the year Ir'2, a message had'been# sent to the - House, which represented the country- to be in a state of insurrection ; since which , period he could peon a continual system. of fraud ou the public roitid had • been acted upon. 1 . 4 this solirce, and to the 4is. PARLIAMENTARY PitOCEEDIkGS. .ttnne, anu ule ixegc George the Second, At the time a provi be former instance, thority of the Reg n one week in short, e period which mi mite from Hannvc as not withheld. ign no such restric ecessary, and those he preceden . s of that in those instant Council of Regen< aring on the quest fined was, that the Royal Authority ; rcised was another it was agreed. on al should be sole Reg t I ,; 0 'union which had unhappily prevails(' in - thslevsfal ft. Iznily (but which he rejoiced to see at attend), he `traced all the calamities which had fallen on the na tion. but for those fatal dissettions he felt confident the empire would have now been in a much better state., From 1792 we had here at war with all Ettel rope, and twelve hundredmillions of the public money' had been spent, in consequence of the adoption of this system of fraud. He knew not how an act of Legislation could be made in the manner proposed. There had been various modes of making laws. At one time the King could of himself 'make laws. At another period of our history, acts of legislation were made by the King and Lords. Down to the period of Henry VII. the people were never mentioned but as petitioners or supplicants. Since that period it had been enacted, that no law could have force without 'the joint authority of King, Lords, and Commons. This, in addition tothe instances already before them, had been established, in the case of Lord Macclesfield. All they had to do in the present instance was, to address the Prince to take upon himself the authority of Regent. The Executive Power ought to be re stored to the Constitution without delay. He again protested against the proceedings Of Ministers, and thought they had acted unconstitutionally, illegally, and treasonably. ...(IZear, hear!) —He meant no or: fence to any human being, (A laugh), but such was' his opinion of their conduct. Mr. PONSONBY observed, the Report had,not yet been brought up, thoughthe Gentlemen who had spoken had seemed toregard it, as being on the table. On this suggestion, the question was put by the SPEAKER, and the Report ordered to be brought up. Mr. Lushington brought it up accordingly, and on the second reading of the first resolution, Lord PORCHESTER rose. He -felt obliged to repeat what had been the prelude to almost every speech, that personal character ought to he put wholly out of consideration, and there never was a period when that could so well be done, as there existed but one and the same opinion of all the three Royal Per sonages who had been mentioned. The present case varied from all that had been alluded to, as what they had to do was to vest the power of the King in an heir apparent of full age. In making provisions to guard against anticipated dangers, they ought to consider what was the nature of those dangers, as well as the probability of their being to be encoun tered hereafter. in some instances it might be ap prehended of altering the succession to the Throne. That danger, however, could not be dreaded on the present occasion, in entrusting the Royal power to the Heir Apparent. In former instances there were, minor dangers to be feared, of winch no apprehension could be entertained on the present day. Was there, he would ask, any more danger in going; the Heir Apparent the power of making Peers as Regent, than there would be in entrusting him with the same power as they must, when, in the course of nature, he suc ceeded to the throne of his father ? Why should they ,suppose he would be jealous of the Lords, who would in all probability be the prop of his throne, and alio of that of his posterity ? The Right Henourable. Gentleman had seemed to condemn his own princi ple, no sooner had he proposed that the Regent should have the power of creating peerages, than he .proposed an alteration. If he were to form a jade , 9 - maths for of the Right Honourable Gentleman's Manta for so doing, he should regard it as emanating ireful the hope of obtaining a little popularity in the two services, and thus catching a few votes that might otherwise escape him. But were there any grounds on which they could consistently allow him the power of so rewarding valour while they restricted him i 4 other cases ? The Right Honourable Gentleman hid supposed an extreme case—a hero in .all the glory of triumph dying without his peerage. • But what was' there in this situation to influence them as the Right Hon. Gentleman wished ? Supposing a naval or mi litary Commander thus situated—if he had lived long enough to know that be had the thanks and the ad miration of his country, would it not be satisfactory to him to know, that the honours and rewards due to his valour would be conferred on those nearest and dearest to him, though circumstances rendered it im possible for them to be given at that period to hirp The ground on which it was proposed to withheld . from the Regent the power of granting peerages was, that it was improper for the Regent to do any thing which was nut authorised by necessity, which the. King would nut have it in his power to annul on his recovery. The King, on his recovery, might disap prove of the honours so conferred. He might regard them as part of a change of system—jealousies might. in consequence arise in the two services, and thus it might be • more dangerous to allow the Prince to create peerages as part of a system, than to grant that power which might only be exercised in an insu lated case. The doctrine laying . down the dangers that might arise from allowing him to give places for life he thought ridiculous. it was proposed to give him sufficient a uthority to remove the Ministers of the Crown—those who called themselves the King's personal def.:riders. He might remove at pleasure the Right Honourable Gentleman and his whole train of right honourabke mutes."—(Hear, hear.) — Not one of the Gentlemen opposite had thought pro-' per to assert that he ought clot to have that power.— He might constitutionally remove the whole of the Administration, but if he presumed to make a clerk of the irons, or a surveyor of the melting, why. then the person of the King was outraged, the royal au thority endangered. His Lordship here took a view of what would probably be the feelings of his Ma jesty on recovery, on finding such powers had been exercised by the Regent. Tee question, he observed, was net of what it might be proper to suspend or to abolish, but whether the Regent should or should not, exercise those- powers ordinarily exercised by the King? He thought it improper to weaken the Go. 'torment of the Regent by the proposed restrictions, and was of opinion, that, by forbearing to fill up the sinecure places, that might fall vacant within a year, (whether the Ministers of the Regent or of Cie King should then be in power; he thought such an accu mulation of sinecures as might 'lien be at their dis posal, would probably be more a subject of com plaint than if they were disposed of as they became 'vacant. The sinecures which fell vacant might be abolished with propriety, but if the disposal of them was suspended, it would but increase their importance. He was averse-to making the offices of the`King's Household permanent. This was not a time for an increase of state, and therefore when there was an abundouce of officers who could not be allowed access . , . . .. to the King's persons new ett cers oughi in be up; 'lf at the speect of - ti:e Minister, xJ;eu to th e pointed for the Regent, to add to the burthens of thel assumption that it conveyed the Royal sanction, ti e people. But thenet was said the expellee of such an I man entertained a highersespect for the private vi e . establishment would not exceed 14 or £15,009. That toes of his Majesty than himself. He would g o fur, might be the amount of the salaries of tlee officers, ther on this subje , t than had perhaps been hitherto but it was not the extent of the whole attendant ex- gone; and would declare, that, is his opinion, the Fences of the proposed establishment. As to the Coentry owed more to the,private . virtues and to the precautions taken to guard the interest and pervert of moral character of his Majesty than to ell the public the King, expedient as it might be to guard them so measures of his reigns---(Ther, hem., 1 :4t .) 8 0 . , as to prevent any obstacle to his resumption of power wheelie stated this, he could not refrain front paus e . at a proper time, histery furnished them with many dog against the use which lied recently been made ie histories of usurpations, &c. but where could thee thee House of the general conviction of his Majesty's find an instance of an Heir Apparent endeavouring vir:ues, in order' to influence the decision °fit (Illellt;011 to dethrone a Monarch enthroned in the heerts of lust which ought to be determined•withuut any teference people, by such means as creating a few peerages, of el pervert' nature. giving >may a few aces, and chitheing a few Lot ds ! C am Y - ORKE . sincerely coneretulated the County of the Bed-chamber? If they told their constituents of eidge ell posseseing a Repr...seutative who did that they had placed barriers, to secure the rights of 60 Mlldi ' enour to their chaise as the Noble Lords— the. King from innovation, they. mould express their The Noble Lord bad equally distinguished d h fe im t :l: approbation of their conduct in Parliament) but if by his talents and by his loyalty, although in his argue they told them that they had done this by keeping a mein he was under the necessity of di:Teeing from him, few sinecures vacant, and by keeping a few Lords of It was not his intention to occupy much of the Bed-chamber, who could have no chance of gain- of the House on this exhausted subject; but he would ing access to his Majesty, the people would then say, ' hitteat their attention, while he stated the circunY "We will never again be represented by such fools stances of the case before them.—ln the first place s as you." At the rate they went on it was iropossi- his Majesty had been declared by the two Houses of ble for them to supply the defect in less than a month. • Parliament unhappily incapeble of discharging the He wished them to consider what was to be dine functions of R2yelty. This declaration was founded within the course of that month. By the 2d of Fe- oe the evidence of his Majesty's Physicians. Bits bruary a question of the greatest consequence was to i those Physicians were unanimously of opinion, not be deckled—the question whether or not we were to only that his Majesty would recover, but that he go to war with the only Great Power with which we • would recover at no very distant period. What the were not already at war? The earliest 'period at House was therefore called upon to do was, to supply which we could hope to see the Regent 'appointed, the deficiency—bin to supply it for a very short pe. proceeding by Bill, was the Ist of February, so that rind. Many of the arguments, therefore, which had they world not leave him one day to consider that been urged by the Honourable Gentleman opposite, important question. What inconveniences, what cm- and winch might have justly referred to the question, barrassments might not arise from the absence of the had it related to supplying the deficiencifor a lor.g pe executive power ! He would suppose that the Bank rind, were irrelevant to the present queatien. The two of England had a month ago declared themselves un- Houses of Parliament, by not calling on Ministers to able to procure bullion for the service of our army give in their seals and symbols of office, had plainly in Portugal—what, under such circumstances, could strewn that they-intended that those officers should have been done to save the army, and preserve the continue to exercise the executive authority en their plighted faith of the nation? It was most impnitant own responsibility, until some contreuling authority that not one hour should be lost in supplying the ex. should be placed over them. Well, it was now pro ecutive power. Those who now took upon them. posed to appoint his Royal Highness the Prince of selves the responsibility had the confidence of nobody Wales to conduct the Government in his Majesty's but themselves, and were they to be suffered to decide name, with such powers as the two Houses might on a question of peace or war without controul ? think proper to vest in him for that purpose. He co- Ought this to be suffered when they knew not what incide& with what was stated by the Noble Lord who line of conduct the Regent would pursue, and would opened the discussion—that they ought to lay out of not allow him time for reflection. The consequence their consideration all motives of a personal nature; might be, he would tine! himself obliged to act with. and nd ifi ll i e is ui ßo )ttid yal i t lger,eicesonres were expre o ss t lii d s o se im theniitimen honour tsas t freely out due deliberation. He-could •not . but feel much for the Kine, hut something ought to be felt for the "consult him on the subject. •His opinion w a s, do. Regent, who, in times like the present, took on him. tinctly, that, as the Regency was to be created but self so heavy a responsibility. It was their duty to for a short time, the authority of the Crown ought consider the events with which the times were preg. not tube vested in the Regent ; nor could lie find by nant, and consider if acting as writ prop ised they any reference to Parliamentary history, that, for a would not endanger the interests of the nation, as short period, such lull power had ever been vested in well as the safety and honour of the Crown. The a Regent. Much stress had been laid on the prece- NobluLord concluded by moving, as an amendment, dent of the Act of Philip and Mary ; and it w as sad that the words " subject toiuch limitations, restric. that by that-Acethe Regent was entrusted with the tions, &c. &e." should be left out in the Resolution. full powers of die Crown, until the infant should be- Sir THOMAS TURTON seconded the.amend. come misled to the succession. But in that case, ment. He characterised the precedent of 17S8 as a ,Parliament conferred the authority on the King, for half formed embryo, the offspring of the lest of Philip was the leingenowirthhs Royaleiy were conferring Higin ie ; s, power and the love of place. He denied that it it on a Regent, who was na was possible, while every other eye in the kingdom the Prince of Wales. The Act of Succession vie was watching with anxiety the faintest dawnings of . adduced as another precedent in which a Regency returning reason in our beloved Monarch, that his had been appointed with the full authority of th e ; son should so divest himself of all natural affection, Crown but he denied this. For instance, rte Coen as to be insensible to his restoration to health. There cis 4 Regency on that occasion were limited as to WAS a consideration (rather of a delicate nature) the power of giving the Royal Assent to a Bill. And which he wished to impress on the House. They could any one suppose that in the interval between were going to present these resolutions to the Prince the death of (,Queen Anne and the coining in of of Wales. Were they quite sure that he would ac- George I, the Regency could have made Peters ?No man, could entertain such an idea. If he went through cept the office which they were desirous to entrust ell the precedents which were laid on the Weir of tee to him ? Might not his Royal Highness consider the acceptance of that office, so limited, as inconsis- House of Lords in 1788, by a Committee of th a t tent with his duty to the Constitution ? 'Might not House, he should be able to slew that there wes not the other Princes of the Blood be actuated by si. a single instance of Regency without a limita miler motives ? .It so, in what a situation would the don. It was clearly established, in his mind, that country be placed ? Possibly the Right Honoura. he power which ought to be given, was only that re ble Gentlemen opposite might say they could go on meted by necessity ; and what necessity was there without the Sovereign autherity. They :night per. thae r ihe Regent should have the power, for a shoe: haps follow the example set them in Ft auce in the time, of making Peers? It was necessary that that reign of Charles VI. when the Chancellor set the power should exist in the Royal Authority, but it Was royal seal to the public documents, and nearly robbed f not necessary that it should be used every day, every the heir to the throne of the succession. Ile trusted, months or every year. In arguing the resolution re. however, that these political Sangradoes, who were specting the Household, he would refer to his original. principle, namely, that the regulation w.:s for a petied. bleeding and reducing the Constitution, would not be allowed much longer to continue their destruc- probably short. If the Regency were likely to be rive practices. lie defied them to adduce an in- long, then it might be necessary not only to trust the stance in which there had been any restriction Im. Regent with the whole power of the State, but tiles posed, by Parliament on the power of the Monarch, to consider whether he ought not to be,turrounded by so as to place a part of that power in abeyance.. all the splendaur 0( the State ?. But he could not see He then adverted to the various . precedents which why it was necessary that the Prince Kcgeat of the had been brought forward, and alluding - particu. present day should for a short time have a grea:er holy to that of 1785, which had been dwelt upon controul over the household than George 11. when he with such peculiar emphasis by the Right Honour. was Prince of Wales, possessed during thesis months able Gentleman opposite, remarked, that the fund- absence of George I. in his foreign dominions ?-11e ness of the Right Honourable Gentleman for thet doubted whether it was ever in the contemplation of precedent reminded him of a ' distich which he had any man until the present day, that a Regent for a frequently heard repeated in his juvenile days, and short time should have any contreulewer the house which, adapted to the occasion, would run thus : bold at all. He WAS little acquainted with, the ne " Here rands a precedent ; who put ft there? cure of the Household establishment, but he was'pc. - A better man than you: touch it if you dare!" seeded that if the House, with a view to a short Re. gency, undertook to separate that household, rti., Lord F. OSBORNE declared, that he ielt it to be a duty which he owed to the ptinciples which to deel•tre what part of it should belong to the Ke e: , had recommended him to his Constituents, to pro. and whetepart to the Regent, they would find it a test at the original resolution, and a g.tinst the task difficult to perform, and unsatisfactory when per arguments which had been advanced in its favour, formed. He allowed that in whatever way the kre- He contended chit the doctrine on which it was sent situation of the Government was conndeeed, m e n founded, was in the highest degree unconstitutional. cons'de 'anion was attended with the sensation of dit. How could the two Houses of Parliament be said to ficulty and inconvenience. It was for the House te supply the deficiency in the executive authority if adopt that course which appeared to them to be, one they supplied it in such a manner as to leave that au. der all the circumstances of the case, the least dised. thority in a diminishing state ? Let the House vantage ons. consider the effect which the present proceeding Mr. C. WYNNE regretted that feeling had here might have in future times. When once by assum. allowed to interfere in the present discussion. They • ing the power of limiting the authority of the Regent ought to make a covenant with theMselves net to anew . the principle had been established that it was compe. their affections to supersede their judgment. D...e,)ii tent to the two Houses of Parliament to make a dif- sensible 'as he was of his duty to the Monarch, he ‘1.15 ference between that and the royal authority, who still more deeply sensible of his duty to the Coast te eniest tell but that at sonic future period the princi. don. In no former instance had any part of the Ro let plc might be used for the purpose of conterring prerogative been impaired by Parliament. It had iXteli on a Regent an authority exceeding that of the So. lodged in different hands, but it had always been Ai vereign ?He denied that the Royal sanction had been lowed to exist undiminished. He contended that in; liven to the unfinished proceedings of the years 1788 the case of Philip and Mary, Philip was only a rit u i 4t - and 1 7 89. With respect to the speech from the King, and with respect to that of George U. when . Throne, which had been quoted as a proof of that Prhiee of Wales, was it to be forgotten that Ganege 1. r ncoon, h e would sa y that it most be considered was in the full possession of all his faculties, and. if r either as the speech of the Sovereign, or as the speech heswas et no greater distance,from the kingdoo !eel of the Minister. If as the speech of the Sovereign, Hanoier ? It had been argued that only two I . ' 7S adieu to all freedom of discussion in Parliament; had been made in the last tear years, and that ' leo*- . Y 1 .~