Star. — London, England, 1807-08-01 00:00:00

troops to the Continent, if it were •only to diftraft the attention of the enemy ? The anfwer was becaufe in the exifting Rate of Europe, it was not thought prudent ; ass mere Thew of force would only put'the enemy on their guard, and prepare them againß fome future attempt 'that might be ferious and effeaual., But as to the Noble Lord's idea, that 25,000 men landed oh the Continent from this country would have drawn off the attention of Bonaparte this way or that, to direa him from his •great object, it was highly ludicrous. The Noble Lord complained that the fplendid views of himfelf and his friends were , marred by the omiffion of their predeceffors, in not leaving fleets and armies ready to their hands, to pre-' teed on their favourite projects. To this he would' anfwer, that the late Minillers, not expeaing they were fo loon to have fucceffors,did not of courfe think themfelves bound to prepare for the projects of whets, but that it was enough to be prepared for thole they themfelves thought right. With refpea to the army, though they had not the advantages of 'roc it rrence to the great talents and valuable aid of the Noble 'Lord, yet by fume means or other, manage ment or accident, it had increafed, and they left to 'the - Noble Lord and his colleagues an armed force tironger by to,coo men than they found 1. Another ground of charge againit the late Minifters was, that they haat divided the force of the Britifh army, by feattering them in (mail numbers and on petty ex peditions, inftead of Rriking a great blow on the Con. tinent. To this he would anfwer, that thefe Mini. Oers bad no option left them, but either to abandon the army taken to South America by an officer ap pointed by their predeceffors, without any order sr authority, and in violation of all difcipline, whole conduit met the revere cenfure of a court-martial, or lend out the expedition they had difpatched ; but what was the condo& of his Majefty's prefent Mini fiers toward that officer ? Why, to the encourage ment of all infubordination, and the fubverlion of all difcipline, to the fcandal and indignation of the Bri tiflt navy, they had taken him frefh from the Rrong cenfure of the court martial, and elevated him over the heads of fo m—ay valiant and cleferving officers, his feniors in command, to the rank of Captain in the fleet in the expedition under Admiral Gambier. Lord CASTLEREAGH replied—he laid that the Right Honourable Gentleman, with that fort of c i andour for which he was fo eminent, had this night acknowledged one fait, namely, that it was through• oot t the,determined purpofe of the late Adminiara. tier, to abandon the Continent. With refpea to the tranfports of which he fpnke notwithflanding they were Rated to be all copper Iheathed, yet the two re giments of the expedition to South America, (one of them the gth Dragoons) after they had paned the Lind% end, and reached the Bay of Difcay un their voyage, finding themfelves by accident on hoard of two unfheathed (hips, they were obliged to put back ;o Plymouth, and intreat a removal on board of fome other veffelsomore adequate to the voyage. He ftid it had been the uniform principle of Mr. Pitt's admi niftration, to have always ready tonnage enough fur the conveyance of to,coo men, on any fudden etner• genoy,and in contequence of this arrangement only nine days elapfed between the time of receiving the intelligence refpeaing the weak Rate of the Cape of Good Hope, and the failing of the expedition for its capture. Mr. WINDHAM raid, that having no immediate purpofe of landing troops on the Continent, he con ceived it unneceffaty to retain thefe tranfports at to great an expence. Lord CASTLEREAGH laid, the Right Hon. Gentleman's principle was more expenfive than his own in retaining coppered 'hips at fo high a price, inßeaJ of thole much cheaper. The ctnfequence was, that although he was in office !ince the 4th of March, and had been twice obliged to taife tbe,price of tonnage, yet fo great was the proportion of lhip. ping occupied by the met cantile demands, that he I could not yet obtain enough for the purples of the fervice. lie was Mt prifed that in point of tafle the 1 : Right Hon. Gentleman lhould prefer coppered (hips for ordinary fervice, fuch as victualling the Fleet off ' Bret, intlead of tetaining the lighter veffels. Mr. WINDHAM Paid, that he did In from a Wit polbly very oppofite to that of the Noble Lord, etamely a tafte for the public economy. He ufed the coppered velfels becanfe he happened to have them, anddid notfeel the utility or prudence of hiring others at the fame time and letting them lie unoccupied. Mr. ROSE, in anfwer to the obfe; vations relative to Sir Home Popham, laid, he always underfiood , k to be the right of the Admiral, in command of aw stepedition, to ehoofe his Captain, and Admiral Gambier bad folicited Sir Home Popham, without any interference on the part of 1);$ Majefty's Mini. Rep. The cenfure of the Court Martial upon that officer was not for any want of &ill or courage, but kr bis conduit arifing from an over zeal for the ler. glee of his country. He was now under the com pact of a fuperior officer, and no fuch error was likely to be repeated. He had heard of a fimilar demur to the feleilion of Sir Roger Curtis by Lord Wows, and though it had given offence to many of ficer; privately, yet no man quellioned the right of the Admiral. general LOFTUS obferved, that it was noto ions that the tranfports which had been fent by the late Ciovernment under Sir Samuel Hood, were alma lanneoppered, and that Maldonado had nearly been even up in confequence. lie alked why, on the ether hand, all the tranfports fent with General Crawford were coppered? Mr. WINDHAM replied, that the feleaion of %Mitered Amps for General Craufurd, was a proper feleaion. Onus) pimps enquired, whether the Right Honourable Gentleman, by denying that an Admiral in tognmaoti bad a right to choofe his own Captain, inteaded to advile that Sir Home Popham fhould be -Ifarnifhed with 14 a vigour beyond the law ? Mr. WINDHAM declared, that he had not (*id the right of an Admiral in command to felea his Ofitua 3 all he had Paid was, that in the cafe al luded to, the feleaion was ill judged, and he appealed to the general feelings of the fervice, whether or not . it Wu proper fo to appoint a man jug fie& from the (*Menet of a Court Martial ? Mr. ROSE explained, Lord HENRY PETTY obferved, that the Rate. %tents on the other fide had led his Right Hon. Mid to comment on the recent employment of Sir OM! Popham who-had been re admitted into the en with the cognisance, and : doubtlefs, with 'the- ipprobaafinttof theta 'bp trisOlifthe. ipixolistmenf .Isicl • been . made. He fully • concurred in the ' Raiment bp his Right Honourable Friend, that the appointiltent had created much diffatisfac tion in the navy (.I cry of No !No !), at kali fo he had been creditably informed ; the gentlemen roppofite might have been informed otherwife He underßood, that independent of thofe circurn fiances on which the lenience of .the court martial had been founded. Come occurrences had lately been Rated to. the public (on which he would not deter mine, for he would indge the condu& of no man un heard), conneaed with Sir Home Popham'sexpedi. Lion to Buenos Ayres, and connaled•with the origin of that expedition at the Cape of Good Hope, which, if Sir Home were not . abfent on the fervice of his country, he fhould think it the duty of the Houle to inquire into. The Noble Lord oppofite to him, in the courfe of his long fpeech, had launched out into a variety of extraordinary:matter, arid among the reel, had aimed a perfonal flroke at him with regard to economy. The Noble Lord feemed to think, that the economy conneded with what he de rifively called tt the grand fyflem of Finance," was the caufe of a damp being thrown upon foreign ex pediticns. Now, if the Noble Lord's Plan of Fi nance were to be taken tip by Parliament, which was not very probable, the importance of economy would be as apparent in that, as in any other fyftem. He was anxious, however, that his (Lord HitißY PSTTeb) economy, and that of his Noble Friend lately at the head of the Treafury, fbould be deafly underflood by the country. It was an eco notny which by hufbanding our refources and pre ferving our finances unimpaired, cnabled us to main tain, with the more vigour, a conteß never likely to terminate Coon, and which the clofe of the negotia tion at Paris had marked as one that mull necelfarity be ptotraaed. The Noble Lord thought that the deliverance of Eiir , pe might have been effeeted two or three times during the period in which the late Adminialation were in office. What ! Had the No ble Lord forgotten that he had been talking of the deliverance of Europe eve, fence the year 1793 ! Not expence—not armies—not lubfnlies, had bet!) want ing to effed that deliverance. He would ativife the Noble Lord to tecolleet thofe events, and Wilt to be fo injudicious as to refer to them. Let the Noble Lord point out the fpecific moment in the tall cam paign, in which he thought the deliverance of Eu rope might be effeaed. Not at the commencement; for, at that period anAdminiftrasion exitled in Ruffia holtile to the interelts of Great Britain, as was evinced by the flatement of the Right Hon. Gentle. man to-night, in juailictrion of the advance made to Pt uaia, that Count Hardenbet g had been replaced in the Cabinet of Berlin. Nor even'- when Baron Jacobi arrived in London,"avas he loth-titled to give up that firlt I oint, becanfe. the point of honour, namely, to renounce the claims of Pruilia to Hann. ver. Would the Noble Lord fay then, that was the moment for co-operation with Priam ? After the battle of Eylau, perhaps ? Let the Noble Lord re collea, that after the &II exaggerated reports of that event had gone by, and intelligence on which re liance could be placed was received, there did not appear any thing in the battle, or in the occurrences which immediately billowed, that could induce any very fanguine hopes of fuccefs. The Baltic too was (lint, and it was impoffible to fend troops. But the great complaint of the Noble Lord vas, that the means left by his Majelly's late Minitlers tor fitting lout expeditions were very frnall, and that he had ex perienced c mfiderable difficulty in encreafing them. He was glad to hear that the Noble Lord had found the commercial tonnage of the country in lurch a pro• fperous (late, that it was nor eafy matter to procure tranfports. Ti.i, was an admillion that the trade of the country had at lead not fuffered in the hands of the late Government. But the Noble Lord conten• ded, that the delay in fending the expeditions from' April to the prefent time was attributable ((tidy to the want of preparation by his predeceffor•. It was fome confolation, i..twever, to recoiled the interval, between the battle of Ulm (which occurred in Oftu• l bee) and the failing of Lord Cathcart (which did not take place till January); at that pet int' the pt efent i men were, and for a long time had been, in Rice, li fo that if the delaying of an expedition Inuit always be ascribed to a want of preparation, that want of preparation, in the cafe to which he had alluded, vv.ts entirely their own. Adverting to the occui ences of thole times, he took the opportunity of expreffing his regret, that the warning voice of his late Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Fox), hal not been liftened to with more attention by the Gentlemen oppofite.— They had coalefced with the Continental Powers— they had created no diver lion before the fall of Ulm, and three months after that unfortunate event, they had Cent ont an expedition, which returned loaded with difgrace, not to the Commanders, but to thofe by whom it had been projeeted, and by whom it had been ordered to fail, at a feafon of the year st hen it was expofed to a fate which a part of it experienced, and for which he fhould ever confider that Admini• flration as deeply culpable. Of any refponfibility incurred by his Majetly's late Minillers, in abifaining 1 from fending out numerous expeditions, he begged that he might have his full (hare " Nufmet rebus fervanrus focundis." With regard to any pt ()tulles of afliftance held 001 to the Continental Powers, unquellionably circum. fiances might have arifen, in which it would have beefl eligible to afford fuch affifiance but thole circumliances had not arifen while the late Admi. niltration were in office, nor had any filch promifes been-held nut. None with regard to men—as to money, Lord Hutchinfon was certainly empowered to make advances to Pruflia. As to Ruffle, the was defending her own frontier, and the only call which the made on the late Minifiry, was a call which the Government of this country would under po circum. fiances be jullified in acceding to. The Noble Lord oppof►te knew what he meant. He repeated his de mand for a full (bare of the refponfibility attached to the conduit of the late Adminillration. If they had not purfucd the courfe of economy which they did purfue—if they had hazarded and waned the re routes, which they poreffed, in fruitlefs Continental exertions, and had left the home defence unprovided for, they would have junly deferved the reproaches of the Honfe and the country. Mr. CANNING wilbed to recal the memory of the Committee .to the real queflion before them, which was, whether they would vote ifio,oool. to his Man jelly, to nuke good the fubfidy advanced by the late anci * indent Admitaraibri to 'the nig bt litte.fia. • He felt it his duty, in prnpofing the motion to the Committee, to explain all the circumllances of the . cafe; bat the obfervations of a Right Hon. Member (Mr. Whitbread) had produced a wide and defultory field of difcuffion ; for which, however, he was not forry, as it had led to the acknowledgment of a fa& from a Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Windham) :before doubtful, but which to him, at the prefent moment, was of the highell value. This was an tin equivocal declaration that his Majetly's 13. e Mini(lers •never had• the flighted intention to have aff oded any aid to our Allies on the Continent, either in men or money, towards the falvation of Europe. This relieved him from the pain he had fo long experi enced in his official fituation ; for never did he feel more feverely the preffure of an Herculean talk, than in endeavouring to reconcile the Continental Powers under the difapprobation and indignation they fek at the condua of. this country, in confe .quence of the non-performance of thole promifes whist they certainly confidered had been pledged by his MajellY's late fslinifters, to furnith them with aid both in troops and money, and for which they long looked with anxious expectation. The Right I Honourable Gentleman had this night difclaimed ' any Each intention, but the Noble Lord teemed to have acknowledged our intention to offer aid to our Allies in cafe it Arnold be wanted. If our Allies were vietorious, in the hour of vietory they might rely on our co-operation, to divide with them the triumph, and (hare the fpoils ; but if they fhould be I defeated, and found it nece(fary to retreat, they were I not to look to us for any fnpport. Thus it was, that l wrapt up ioffhin nurfelves, and,aroxions only for our i ownlecurity, our .Minifters were content to witnefs call* the prnflration of Europe; while our croon. miN . f.hancellor oldie Exchequer hu(binded all our rat - wes, and would rilk nothing in aid of thole allies who were bravely exerting every nerve,and (bedding their hearts' blood, to effect that falvation of Europe, , of . wliich no man talked heretofore with greater zeal than the Noble Lord lately at the head of his Ma jelly's councils (Lord Grenville) and who, he foppo fed, was now become a convert to the economical principles of the Noble Lord, late Chancellor i f the Exchequer. In the recent cafe of Pruffia, it was not like fubfidizing a Pruffion army fent beyond their own frontiers to fight our battles. Was it to be fuppofed that the would make a voluntary abandonment of her efforts, when the was abfolutely fighting for her cliff ence ? Could :coy man doubt that her heart was deeply engaged in the caufe ? Thrice did the re fufe offers of peace, and the reltoration of her domi. Pions, unlefs with the concurrence of Ituffia and England. By the very nature of the conteff, the was molt fincerely and vitally engaged in it. As to the furnifhing of arms and limes, that was a mode !colt likely to be made available to French purples and politics. But, in fait, every fecoricy was given which the nature of the cafe could offer. Ruffle had made no pecuniary demand upon us ; but had merely ofleed permiffion to negaciate a loan in this country. I He fhould not have found any difficulty, when this 1 fubjeCt was mentioned, in acceding to the reqtieit, from every view of the fobjeCt, confidering all the acknowledged good faith of Raffia exemplifi..d in the tranfaftions in Holland: but when he came into p iwer, there was no further queltion upon that point. Rudio had difclaimed fobfidies, which was .1 circumltance highly honourable to her. But with regard to Pruilia, the was unable to make war without Ruffia, who was onlubfidized, and yet Prudia refuted to make peace without Rutlia. Unlefs the Houk was determined not to let a (billing efcape out of the country, he de lied the imagination of man to conceive a fitter oto len for fubfidy than Pruilia. Government were alio iiipafed to afford Pi uffia military afliffance. He could not at prefent enter invidicufly into that quef- Lion with the late Adminifiration, efpccially as they Iti.l they had no fuch intention : but had they not held out a promife, and inculcated one fentiment Abroad, and felt and aeted upon quite another at home He hoped and trotted that the Houle and the countt y,ar cl, the Continent would learn to whom it was owing that affifiance was withheld. What mull be the full thing (aid by the Emperor of Rtillia to the Britith arnhaffaci r,why do you offer no afliffance?your only an fwer is, we have made no expren promife. Why, when we are in thedaily habit of taking prifoneronot merely regular troops, or confcripts of France, but men I 1 from the molt dittant parts of that country and from Italy, is it noopoffible for you to make fome diver lion, and keep fome of there people from coming to fight on the confines of Ruffit ? What anfwer have you to this? He thanked the Hon. Member who had introduced this difcudion, for the opportunity he had given him. If it was the intention of the la , e Mini- Rers to throw off all connection with the Continent, they deferved great praife ; not for their coinions, but for the mode they took of carrying them into effeEt. They had let to work diliger.tly and zealoufly, but if they did abandon the Continent, did they ex ped to carry on war, or to make peace better, by teaching .he continent to abandon them ? It was by no means lb true as it was frequently afferted, that we had (offered fo much by trolling to the Continental Powers. They had not always made peace and left us to our (elves ; but, on fome occafions negnciations had been commenced by us. In this war Ruffia and we were upon equal terms. Ratio entered into it from high fpirit and magnanimous views; her perfonal views were very remote, compared with thole of Pruffia ; remote even from ours. If it be Paid Ruda abandon ed us, her anfwer might be, that we bad not, as the phrafe was, bought her blond by our fiffifidies ; that the had done all for herfelf ; that the had made' a glorious Rand ; but that Englifh promifes had vanifhed into air ; and that, after (hewing a noble firmnefs, Ilse had at fall confulted her own fecurity, (her Wety the could not feel greatly endangered) in making peace. We Hood now on different grounds from thole in which we flood in any former war. 'We were deprived of limilar confolations Then we might fay. they left us alone to fight the battle, but now we had deferred the Continent. The part Ruffia had played had difclofed the energies of a great and powerful empire, (offering much by flruggling, un aided anctunafNed, in the arduous comet. Unlefs the Hoofe could be brought to think that the diftrac tion of the enemy was not a diverfion, they muff be `af opinion, that greater exertions were necelrary, and ought to have been made by the laff AdminuO aration, than any thing they did for our Continental eannealoss. 7 the SOLICITOR_ GENERAL for Scotland pro- I feted **inn the charges made again - a a gallant officer, Sir Home Popham; in his abfence, and con 'tended that in his appointment there was no departure from the rules of fervice. _ _ Mr. HOBHOUSE "(the Chairman) ebferved that it was irregular to purfue a line of obfervation upon topics not immediately conneaed with the fubjea in difcullion. On this, however, he wilted for the in llruainn of !he Committee. Mr. Vtfir'BßEAT) obferved, his own views of •policy Were diametrically different from thrift of the Right Hon. Gent' man who iptle lafl , who had at tributed to him opinions he never held and affections he never made. He'pr..feffed to have ltrong atrac'a ments—but much as he elleemed hi% Frier:J.. he would fay, that if the Right Hon. Gentleman would bring forward his charge, and ftibilantiate it, he lhould give his vote is its fay ore. He was moth relieved, however, when he found that the Right H tn Secre tary, like the Noble Lod his c tlleagne, ab . ainded in inch grog's milreprefentations, and had Ihewit nich a total contempt for all the hilitny of the tall 14 years. —Would the Right Honourable Gentleman contend that Pruffia had played that great part that he at tributed to the Continemal Powers ? What was it boat the misfortunes of that Power that now created our fympathy ? He lamented our fallen greatnefs't But England had not always the praife of adhering to her Allies. England did defert the unhappy and miferable King of Sardinia. England had purfued a fatal and baneful policy from the beginning of the war, and through all its progtef%; and from what ever caufe it mole, as far as he could learn, the had been too much the execration of the Continent. The Right Honourable Gentleman bad with thine dexte tit y alluded to the former lentiments of Lord Gren ville, c...ncerning Continental Affairs, and declared that the Continent had been deceived. But where was the engagement that had been broken? His Noble Friend (Lord H. Petty) had Rated that Go vernment had never made any pnfitive promife for any particular time or purpnir. Thus, lays the Right Hon. Secretary, you held out exaggerated 'tripes, beeaufe you did not Rate exprefsly what you would do. He • could not underlland what he meant by exaggerated hopes, when nothing particular was promifed Was there any charge of a tingle °per atinn having been milcalculated from hope of Britifh aid ? Nothing of the kind. Then comes a molt grnfs mifreprefen tation about the hopes held nut, and the expeaation entertained by the King of Sweden of a force of ca valry. The Noble Lord had declared that in fuch promife a hope was held out. Then, laid the Noble Lord ingeniontly, there were no tranfports, and therefore you meant to lend no men at all ! Was this a fair conclufi rn ? Let th. , fa Gentlemen bring for. ward their charge for the lapprfed aband ,, nment of t h e C•mtinent. They bad refofed his motion for an enquiry into the Rate of the nation, which would - • have given them an opportunity r.f difclofing thefe things ; and now they make their chatge% in an un looked for manner. The difcuflion of the national politics did not fuit thew, though now and then it might ferve fome purples in the entitle of a debate.. Was the prefent Adminiiiration competent to dire& the affairs of this country ? It was faid, " Can you conceive a power in a Situation fitter f , r fending a to than Prullia ?" Perhaps not, for a mode , rate firm; but what had the to give in exchange for fa large a firm as a million of money, as was projec ted by their treaty ? He had no objeNion to lending a lupply of alms. Piiitii,i, it is laid, refitted peace thrice. He did not with to bear hard. But look at her littrati..n. She had plunged into the war by a fort of infane ra(hnefs, and it was impoffilale for us to reicne her. Gentlemen on the oppolite fide wilted us to prefs the queflion upon her, refpeaing Hano ver, with OM greater vigour. Did not Pruffia force het fell into war for Hanover ? She would not give it up. Then came the rapid events that commenced ith the battle ofJena, and ended with that of Fried land; events which no Britith force could avert. But when peace was offered to Pruffia, bow flood the with Ruffia ? Vas the not between two powers ? Was the a free agent ? When the fled from France, the was in the hands of Ruflia, anctincapable of aaing indepen dently. As to the life made by the Rip,lit Hon. Secre tary, of the name of Lord G:enville, he hoped he did not mean to forego his former praifes, and the high opinion he proleffed fa often to entertain of that Noble Lord. He Rated, that he had' the happinefs to agree with that Noble Lnrd in his oppofition ta, the Spanifh war, which his Lnrclfhip oppofed with greater ability than any other perfon, with the excep tion only of his late departed friend, Mr. Fox. The Tall Miniflers, the Ilonfe would recollza, found the country at v'ar jug after the battle of Atiflerlitz and the peace of Pr efburg, and Ruffia in an undetermined Rate. P. ullia negleaed the opportunity faid to have been offered to her, and which, it was laid, would. have tinned the fate of Europe. It had been fince Paid In of Aultria ; hut Ruffia offered her wnt,le force to Pruffia, and Pruffia refuting it, went afterwards, in the rathnefs of infanity, to war, for Hanover. After all, here we were without an ally ! If the improvi ! dente of the late Adminiaration had produced this 1 misfortune, the prefent Minillers ought to make their charge again(' them. If not, they ought not to throw out mifreprelentatir us and calumnies. He concluded. with vatirus other remarks, and apologized] fur troubling the Committee In long. Mr. Secretary CANNING explained, that he derflood the late Minilters to have feen no oppertu• nity for fending out military aid. He found the tecurity of Prulfia not in charaler but circumflances. Mr. WHITAREAD reminded Mr. C. that when it was propored formerly to fubfidize Praia atter her drfeaion, he made a motion againli it. Mr. CANNING did not recoiled the fa Et, but charged Mr. W. with 'wailing Ruffian neutrality ; the fame line was purfued by Mr. Fox, but he did not with to fay any thing difiefpeafulto the memory of departed great men. Mr. WHI !'BREAD faid Praia might appear wrong in many refpeas, not all. There was no pub: lie opinion he maintained in common with that great man, now nn more, in which he did not believe he (hould live and die. Mr. WINDHAM rnfe to explain himfelf from tome mifreprefentations of the Secretary of State.— He liked his ingenuity and eloquence, but aid not think his arguments the moil refpeaahle. He imputed opinions and affertions to Gentlemen, that he might anfwer them himfelf, by which means he had always enough to fay. A man may very eafily be affluent,. who coins his own money. There was no want of •