Star. — London, England, 1811-01-05 00:00:00

strangers were excluded at two o'clock in the mor• niog, and for the remainder af the sitting the doors *sere kept shut. During the exclusion, we understand the followtng iv isi on: took pl 4: e : First, on the question of ail Amendment, proposed by the Sterluts a LA Nopowy For the Ailendment Against it . Ins • • • 102 Majority The sestina division respected the Peerage Ri solution.—An jimenernent was proposed for lea , iing our the exception in favour of Nara and Military °Ricers. The numbers were— For the Amendment - - Against it • - 100 Majority spinet the ResOutlon, as snit up by tee Commons On the Third anil Fourth Resolutions, we understand, there wit no division. Tlie next took place 'on the Fifth Resolution, respecting tie Royal Household. whin there appeared— For the Resolution, as sent up - - - For an Amendment (proposed, as we could c.lieet, on the part of Ministers) for restoring it is its 110 original shape - - - - Majority in favour of the Resolution as amended in the Commons - . - —IS. On Pr/pairs being called for,a considerable debate arose as to whether they should be alowed to vote. On this a division took place, when the numbers were— In favour of Proxies - - It 9 Against them - - - /02 Majority against Proxies ii---3. Inc Report was then brought up. Some Amendments were moved by Lord LIVERPOOL, which were negatived, and the House adjourned at Half-past Two this morning. 97. HOUSE OF COMMONS. TREASURY ORDER. The CHANCELLOR of .the EXCHEQUER. moved for a copy of a letter from the Deputy Clerk of the Privy Seal, dated 4th January Hill, which Was ordered. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER presented at the Bar, papers, by order of the House, in which was the above letter. It was ordered to be read, and stated the application of the Treasury, for the use of the Privy Seal, and the reason for not cons. plyieg with it ; which was, that it was contrary to the express letter and spirit of the oath of the Deputy Clerk,. to . put the Privy Seal to any instrument in the way which had been desired by the Lords of the ' 'Treasury. Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the order of the clay for the House to resolve into a Committee of the whole HOuse to take into consideration the Correspondence between the Lords of the Treasury, and the Auditor of the Exchequer. [For Must I) ,, cui•erts see First Page of this Paper.] On the question. being put. Mr. TTEENEY approved the candid statement of • the Right Honourable Gentleman. His objection . was, that in•the situation in which the House stood, by the deficiency of the Executive Power, they were bound to do only that which was absolutely necessary. He wished, however, to have the opinion of Gcntle- Men better acquainted than himself with Parliamen. • tarry proceedings. . . The SPEAKER sail, that it would be rather dif ficult for him to quote precedents in the present case. It was not, however, usual for the House, when an t order had hepri trade fnr a rommittee to sit on a cer • ^ Vain day; to alter that order, and to advance the term Of such a sitting. • Tithe House were ssilling to alter 4 that usual mode of proceeding, it was rot fin. him -tes' interfere. the suspension tithe Kingly power . the House seas certainty bound not to ed further at. n necessary ; yet the House woulti m re c co e llect, thatl • during the so - pension of Regal functions at .the Re-' • volution, and at the restoration, a great variety of Latter had been submitted to the House, and trans. acted by them ; and esp•N:ially money matters, in the . latter instance. The House, comparing these prece • dents, might form an opinion on the way they were to act. They had, in fact, no other rules but the ix cessity of the case. . The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER saw more diiisculties in proceeding to a Committee on the state of the Nation, than ih the mode he had re . commended ; • for it day being already appointed, it could not be altered without notice. Mr. ADAM thought the subject something more than a mere point of - form. Mr. W. SMITH was for a Committee on the State of the Nation. Mr. YORKE said, that it was admitted on all sides, that a Committee was preferable. it did not ap reit. very Material under what name that Committee saw but if it was to be a Committee on the State of the Nat ion, it would appear to him necessary to rescind tie tot mei order. Mr. PONSONBY thought themode of proceedings ilitherto adopted, had sufficiently evinced the stress which was laid on precedents—and the House, after duly weighing that circumstance, would n o t junk, it immaterial to establish new ones. Should the House , 'dopt the mode cf proceed:lig recommended by the Right Honourable Gentleman. he would feel the less i objectioti tol it, from his having explained to the-House ', end to posterity, why they were no* imperiously tailed upon to act so. He wished, at the same time, for an opinion from the Chair. The EIPE,A.KER said it was against the usual form of "the House to accelerate the sittings of the Corn. Inistee previously ordered. The House, of course, might alter the usual mode of proceedings. But it •the House would adopt a middle course of proceeding, a memorandum might be added to the order for going on a Committee of the whole House—that aught, mentioning that the Committee on the State of the Islaytion. ben adjourned to Tuesday, the House had found . it expedient w appoint a Committee of the whole 1 - .lo:oft—(.llear, hear.)—lf it was-the sense of the House tliAt such a mesnotandurn should be entered oq the Journals,—he certaiely should feel it his duty .10 see it done.—(Rear.) Mr. SHERIDAN bowed to the authority of the Chair, but still was not convinced. He thought that Right Hon. Gemiernan had some how or other got into a puzzle. The Committee on the State of the N.ttien etas not, in fact, adjourned, except to reran progress ; they had leave to sit again on Tuesday, but were not prohibited from sittirg previous to .hat time, end would have to sit, in tact, should any new r occur, for &tante, in case of the King's recovery. miter some further conversa6on, in which her. "kg, Mr. Lome and Mr. Resit took a share, the • motion of the StiAlCill to leave the Chair was carried asa. ton. and the louse resolved into a Committee of skuole 1 47 1 M rMffn 7 15 7 7 "1, 91 51gfre , 7237 - • . The CHICgtELLOR of the lICCHEQUER then rose and said, that after the discussion which had already taken place on this subject, the House would be enabled to form some ground of opinion why he , should have thought it unnecessary to bring this bu lginess before the House of Commons. His opinion, formed on the most serious consideration, was, that it would be better Ministers should have dune it by themselves, on their own responsibility, to be_ sub mitted to Parliament, when their whole conduct as to this transaction could be fairly and fully laid before the two Houses for their consideration and approval. The House would see by the papers the absolute ne cessity there was for the immedilite issue of the money —but every member in the House ought to be made acquainted with the grounds on which the money was to be issued. Within these walls, it was impossible any one should conceive that Ministers could have a thought of raising or issuing money without the con sent of Parliament first had been obtained ; but in this case, the whole he had attempted to do, was in his idea mere matter of form. An Act of Parliament (the EYehequer Act) has directed the mode in which money is to be issued lay the Lords of the Trea sury, after being granted by Parliament ; and the mode thereby prescribed is, that issues of money from the Exchequer shall only be made by the authority of the Great Seal, the Privy Seal, or the directions of as , Act of Parliament. It appeared to him and the other Lords of the Treasury, that as certain sums of money had been expressly appointed by an Act of Parlia ment for the particular services of the army ;nod navy, the Exchequer would have been fully justi fied its issuing those monies en the warrant of the, First Lord of the 'I reasury, it being under the direc-, tions of art Act of Parliament ;--and therefore he looked upon the King's Signature as mere maser of Form. In consequence, however, of what be had be fore stated, and of what fell from the Right Hoe. - Ge ntlemen opposite, that such an order might not be obeyed, he had applied for a Privy Seal, which would have been a sufficient authority ; but not being able to obtain that, he had issued the two warrants for this money. It was no concealed instrument, but openly issued, and he hal immediately dispatched them to the Auditor of the Receipts of his Ma jesty's Exchequer. These Warrants were No. 1 and No. 2, for £500,000 each ; one on account of the Treasurer of the Navy, and the other on account ot the Paymaster-General of the Forces. To these Wa rrants he had received an answer from the Noble Lord, who was Auditor of the Exchequer, the words of which he would now read. After acknowledging 'that Mr. Fisher had brought him the two warrants, his Lordship says (No. 3), " I have been up to this " moment totally unapprised of any intention on the " part of their Lordships to transmit me any such " Warrant, etc." To this he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) transmitted de answer contained in No. 4, and referred generally to the correspondence: The Right Hon Gent. protested to the House in great sin ' eerily, that he could not after tl.'s correspondence and the legal opinions, bring to his mind to suppose the Noble Lord wood have refued to agree to the issue required by the Warrants, but that he would have contented himself with protesting strongly against the measure, and have left it entirely to the responsibility of Ministers. He might, perhaps, have taken a wrong step ; but if, with two Acts of Parliament expressly in his favour, he hrld come down to the two Houses to trouble them on this subject, he should have petted to have been called the most pusillanimous Minister that ever was, in hesitating to do that from his own authority, which the exigency and necessity of the case so imperiously required. In the Loan Act passed last Session, three or more Commissioners of the Treasury, or the High Treasurer for the time beng, were authorised and empowered to issue the monks appropriated by that Act to the service of the Army and Navy ; and the proceedings which have prevailed in the Treasury of the E!xhequer, having the authority of the Sign Manual, seemed to him to have been matter of form, and he did therefore take upon himself to issue the order, which might be repre hensible ; but he did it oft a firm conviction of what he had stated being the case till the refusal of the De. puty Clerk of the Privy Seal had convinced him, be at least thought that that could not be dispensed with.' He might be stiled a Rewbell by some—a P.ewbell and an usurper; but, conscious that he had only been die- 1 icharging his duty as the necessity of the case required, he confessed, he did not feel so much alarm at such epithets and imputations. h might be said, that there was no precedent for this in the proceedings of Parlia ments in 178 S-9 ; and that, in the present year, we were acting contrary to what they then did. But sup pose there had been no act like this at that time—if no similar case had then occurred, should we say, that if such a case had happened to come before Parlia ment, they would not have met it in the way he pro posed to do ? At that time, the country was in pro found peace, and no steps were taken in many cased where the Great Seal and Privy Seal 'were requiregf, because our foreign relations did not actually sequin it; but in many cases at home the Privy Seal had been used, such as the Judges going their circuits' s '&6— There had also been orders for removing troops front Ireland to America, in which the officer issuing the order declared he had not the official authority ; but those who received it knew the reason, and would therefore do it on the responsibility of Ministers, to be judged of according to the exigency and necessity of the case, illustrated by what he conceived to have I been the feeling of Parliament on that occasion. He had been told that an opinion had been expressed out of that House, that if troops must of necessity be sent to Portugal, and Parliament vets sitting, Mi nisters could not legally send them without the au thority of Parliament for so doing. But how would the House deal with a subject ot this sort? If Mi nisters were to apply to the House for such a purpose as that of sending troops to Portugal, they ought to lay before it all the doctiments relative to such reinforcements—nay, dip whole state of the army in Portugal, of its wants and necessities, intelligence which would be in the hands of the enemy in a few hours after it was thus promulgated. He thought, therefore, the responsibility of Ministers was in such a ease preferable to a Committee of the two Houses of Parliament, who cannot act without such commu nications. On that responsibility lie had acted as the necessity of the case appeared to him to require, and hehoped he had not anticipated erroneously thede cision the House would come to on the point. A case of exigency had now aimed. The money was not I be got by any other mewls bet iv this vplica. Wf! the two 'Mises of Parlianient It appeared to ' that it was much better at once to allow the Mi nisters to act upon their own responsibility, unti! the deft, ieney in the Royal Authority is filled up. It would be almost impossible for the two Houses of Parliament to interfere directly hi every issue of public money for the service of the State. If that were to be attempted, there mnst be every week or two conferences between the two Houses, and there would be repeated and 'endless debates on every particular issue. He thought therefore it. would be much better to empower the Lords s►f the Treasury to grant the proper Warrant! during the time that the royal authority remains un supplied. He should therefore move, " Ist, that it was necessary, under the urgency of the present con juncture, that during the time that the exercise of the royal authority is suspended, the various sums of money granted by Parliament fur the Navy, Army, and Ordnance, and specifically appropriated to those purposes, should be is'ued and supplied. 2d, that it was expedient, for that purpose, that the Lords of the Treasury should issue their Warrants to the Au ditor and other Officers of the Exchequer. And 3dly, that the said Auditor and other Officers of the Er ,chequer are hereby authorised and commanded to pay and issue from the Exchequer the sums of money con tained in the said Warrants signed by three or more of the Lords of the Treasury, as well as in the Waif: rant of the 51st December, 1810." On the question being put, Sir JOHN SEBRIGHT approved, in the warmest terms, the Chancellor of the Exchequer's conduct, he thought it the best and manliest tint could be adopted. He for one would have wished for less de lay, but he was confident, that upon the whole the Right Hon. Gentleman had acted for the best; he had not flinched from his duty, and he had admired him for that, as well as for the candour of his sta•e- Se ent s, which he had a frequent opportunity to remark. Lord TEMPLE begged the House to carry in mind the former assert;ons of the Right Hon. Gen tleman, who had said that he foresaw no minas in convenience from delay, and to his conduct in this present instance, when the House was apprised of any embarrassment, till the money in the Treasury was completely exhausted. He had himself given proofs that he did not reckoq on the validity of the War : rant of the Treasury, to direct issue of monies, since he had before tried every other means, , and had only resorted to that one, when he found that all the others had failed him. He denied that the clauses in the Act of 1788 could, at any time, dispense with the forms established in the Exchequer Office. His Noble Relation was bound in law to observe them ; he bad applied ,to the Attorney and Solicitor General, and had been told by them that he could not legally dis pense with them. , Ministers alone' had acted con. trary to the Constitution, by their attempt to issue money on their own responsibility, when Parliament was sitting. . Mr. ROSE justified the conduct of the Ministers, in having had recourse to the Exchequer. He re plied to the observations. which Lord Temple had made on the two Acts of Parliament quoted by Mr. Perceval ; and remarked, that he did remember some -1 thing in the times of 1788, concerning the Officers of the Exchequer passing money through their hands, but his memory was rather impaired, and I , e could !not point to the case directly. He concluded by sta. I ting it as his opinion, that Mr. Perceval had done ac. cording to his ditty, and consonant to he trust and • responsibility of his situation. Mr. PONSONBY remarked on the resolution pro posed by Mr. Perceval, that it was the fixed op inion of both the Attorney and the Solicitor-General, that the Auditor of the Exchequer had done his duty in what had now occasioned this debate. He bowed to such eminent authority, and needed not to explain himself any further on the subject. He observed, however, that all this.difficulty had sprung from ill timed procrastination in supplying the suspended powers of Royalty. All the logic and eloquence in the House could not have told them better than this Resolution now before them, of the necessity of filling the vacancy sooner. He affirmed that Ministers, in the Resolutions now proposed, were presuming to take up the fallen functions of Royalty. When the printing of the papers was proposed the night before, I , e did not think there was such aßesolutionitirking behind them. He approved of quickness and promptitude in the pub lic business, but wished that promptness to be accord ing to the Constitution of the kingdom. He hoped that no one would. have ever proposed, in the most extreme hurry of national affairs, to do a thing which the three branches of the realm alone could do. lie would praise a Minister who took upon him the re sponsibility which promoted the welfare of his coun try, but he would ever condemn that Minister, who Took on himself responsibility for the wounding of the Constitution. He concluded by saying, he protested against doing the pubic business by unconstitutional modes, when they had it in their power to avoid it all, by instantly constituting a Regent by Address, which was agreeable to the dictates of common sense, and the opinion of the nation. Mr. DUNDAS opposed the sentiments of the Right Honourable Gentleman on theexpediency of the present Resolution. It had been stated by the Right Honourable Gentleman, that he feared the Of ficers of the Exchequer would not obey the *arrant which was-expected to be granted on account of the illegality of the proceeding • yet the same Honour able Gentleman had confess ed that it was necessary sonic mode should have been adopted for procuring of tht public money for present exigencies. He coo chided by saying, that the appointing of Regent was not to be done so long as it could be avoided, until that want of regal authority was injuring the national prosperity. Sir ARTHUR PIGGOTT supported the conduct of Lord Grenville as constitutional. Mr. YORKE rose in reply to the Hononrable Ba ronet, and said, his arguments might have suited a former occasion, had he used them then, for they would then have been to the purpose. He contended that the proceedings in Parliament had sanctioned all that was now propofed. He justified the Adjourn, ments of the Houses, and concluded by declaring he did not foresee the difficulties which had arisen from the refusal, at the Exchequer, to issue the money ap propriated by Parliament. After some farther remarks from the CHANCEL- . LOR of the EXCHEQUER, in the course of an able reply to the argum&ts of his opponeotche stated, that so fat' from having come to that House with false he gate 'lbis Mai 640 heaitb, RI. , die hopes he had held out of his speedy, (lay of hi s immediate recovery, fell far short i.f the authority given him for these assurances, by those in attendance on his Majesty's person. (Ikar, he:...r, hear. )—He pa r . titularly denied that the Address to a Regent woull obviate their present difficulties, because if, as Mr. Whitbread said, the two Houses had no right to ern. power the Lords of the Treasury to obtain tr.3l:ey from the Exchequer, they certaittlj could not 1 ei 5 ... 4 the still greater power of confer, ing the riwal ant'..,. rity.—Messrs. TIERNEY, W/MTEREAN aft. HOP.NER, opposed the Resolutions. Mr. C. W. WYNNE entered into a trail of argil.. merit against the Resolution, and defended Lora Grenville from any imputation cast upon him for hi s conduct on this occasion. He censured Minittet 'for the delay which had reduced the House to a hurried decision, or the risk of injuring the service at the coup. try ; and concluded by saying he would move a;t amendment, to restrain the Treasury front interfi rin g with the three millions of the Vote of Credit, and t. confine the issuing of money to the service of the army and navy alone. : _After some further retnatlts from Mr. W. Surrtr, Mr. WILBERMICE, and Sir .Toni Newroter, the ques tion was put upon Amendments po)posed by Mr. W. WyNNE, which were negatived without a division. The original question was then cal lied, the House• resumed, and the report of the Committee was brought up, read, and agreed tn. After which, on the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Resolution, Were ordered to be submitted to the Lords (this day.) MALT nrrr. Mr. WILLIAM SMITH called the attention of i'fhe House to a report which had gone forth thmugft the medium of the public papers, stating that his I Majesty's Ministers had entered into an agreement I with the Malt Distillers, to susp.md the Malt Duty I Act for the ensuing six months, and representing that this complaint would be attended with the worst ef. fects, as it went to promote speculation. He felt It his duty to set the public right on this sithiect, and to 1 state that so far was the measure, which had been adverted to, from creating a spirit of speculation, that it had a contrary tendency, and put an end to that spe. culation which had already Droved so injurious to trade.—Adjourned at HALF PAST surrax. THE EVENING STAR. LONDON. SATURDAY; JANUARY 5. IFRICII OP STOCL THIS DAY AT ONE O'CLOCK. per Com Cont. for opg. 41.14--Koduced I. 4 per Cont. 1211—treh. Bilb , ss. to es. prom Noe, °As. f preen.—Onusluot 4i dli. " MIN lIISOR CASTGE, JAxdAtltY 4, 161 1 . es His AI/altar continues as well as he was yes. terday. (Signed as usual.) gi WINDSOR CASTLE, JANUARY 5, ISt I. 4 4 His MAJLITY has passed another quiet night, and remains•very much in the same state as for some days put." (Signed as usual.) After a long and interesting debate in the Howe of Lords, which terminated at five o'clock this morning, a series of divisions toc,k place, the nature of which may require some explanation. The first was on an amendment moved by the Marquis of LANsnowx, si milar to that which Lord PnRCREITER proposed in the Commons, namely, to leave ont the words, in the 'first Resolution, relative to liaraitatiOns and excep tions." This amendment was carried by a majeri• y of three. It Was expected that this division v.uuld have determined the fate of the Other Resolutions, but this was nor the case. On the 2d Resolution an amendment was moved, the object of which was to omit the clause which had been introduced for die purpose of authorising the creating of Olken of the Navy and Army Peers. This amendment was carried by a majority of 6. So that in fact this Resolution goes back to the Commons in a more rigorous shape than that in which it was received by the Lords.a.-- There was no division on any •of the remaining Re solutions, except the last, relating to the Household, which Lord LIVERNIO . L endeavoured to restore to the original form in which Mr. PRIMEVAL. submitted it to the Commons. In this, however, he failed, there being a majority of IS against his amendment. In addition to this debate in the Lords, we have given a report of a most interesting discussion in the Com mons, on the issue of money from the Exchequer. ' We have this morning received an Anholt Mail and German Papers to the 22d ult. but their contents are uninteresting. An article from Stockholm states, that a Cortgre , s of Plenipotentiaries from several European Powers rs about to assemble at Presburgh, when Negociations of a Pacific nature are to be entered upon. A vessel which arrived from France yesterday, brings intelligence of the confiscation of three vessels which had arrived at Bourdeaux from America. It is manifest, from this, BONAPARTE will admit of no relaxation of the Milan or Berlin Decrees, until Ante ' rica goes to war with this country. Considerable reinforcements have sailed within these few days from Portsmouth and Plymouth for Portugal. The wind has been fair ever since they sailed. We are sorry to learn, that during the dreadful gale of last night from thy North East, not less than twenty small fishing, and other vessels, have been lost at Gravesend, and in other parts of the Rivcr. Although Ennaparte, to his burning shame, has lately Issued several bgrning decrees, he will rather burn his fingers than burs the 500 English State Lottery '1 ickets, which, it .s strongly sue. peered, he has lately smuggled into his posse.sion, through a r ie vete foreign Agent in our metropolis; but that the entire of the 44 Capital Prizes in our new and popular Scheme, may rest, es the 15th of February, with adve_pturers of the 'knish Realm, is most devoutly hoped. DIED. On the 2Sth of December lust, at bio tesideoce at Wal in Kent. univerally and 'most deservedly larnentei, in tn, ;sib . year of his age, Sir Healy Harvey, Knight of the Path, and Adept. ral of the White is of his lit4esty's Fle. t,isi whose 'avid xnke i; Aid war and a4no . . ly rutted so year and upwards hu • W ososorr, and midis to binksek. publisheilt m so ; traa•orricii, 1' ! . is 444 Vy. It Garai:a* r ~ . r. ti • L' ' fih• I .#i .7 - E fl Xll a b: I 1 1 I