Star. — London, England, 1811-03-08 00:00:00

• was so, would not be inclined to find fault, with Par liament for taking time 'before they instituted any measure for the purpose of remedying the evil cool plained of. The measure to remedy the evil must be of a legislative nature, and originate of course'in Par liament. Whatever was doing in this respect, whether as to the erection of new Corns of Judicature, or in any shape, must have the sanction of the Legisla ture. The Hon. Gentleman would not accuse him of great delay, when a Committee had already been appointed, who were about to Make - that inquiry which ha. wisliel Delay of justice was -1 cause of complaint ; but, from the very nature of many of the cases, the necessity for that delay was apparent ; and whatever number of Judges might be appointed, they could not remedy the grievance. There was great delay in cases of equity, in getting the parties before the Court, on the merits or demerits of the case, and various other causes, before the Judge could make up his mind to decide. The question was certainly of the greatest importance, and the Hon. Gentleman had implied; by giving his consent to the inquiry,' es being the best mode of providing for the remedy; and therefore it would be most advisable to wait to see what the Committee would do. Mr. ADAM wished to state his opinion upon the question, an opinion which he had formed four years before, when the Bill was before Parliament respect. ing the Sco - t1 Courts. He did not agree either with the Right Hon. Gentleman or his Hon. Friend. The grievance of delay was very manifest ; the delay, in cases of appeal which came from Scotland, was cote seriously felt than in this kingdom. With re. •istet to the cases in the Court of Ckancery, he agreed orth his Hon. Friend that the Noble Lord evinced great anxiety to do justice to all parties in adminis tering the duties of that Court; but it was certainly 'true that dilatoriness had arisen to a great height, and this without imputing blame to any officer of the Court. It was not so in the Common Law of Judi cature ; there more of dispatch took, place in less time, and it was so from the very nature of the Courts. In regard to cases of appeal, much remained yet to be done before even justice could he administered. — Not agteeinehowever, with the Right Hon. Gentle lain, Ind wishing that this House . ehould not appear tb ibendon the duty cast upon it, and having a coll et*** duty to perform with the other House, he Should conceive that the best way to decide would be by adjourning the debate for three weeks, that in the event of the decision of the other Committee not being satisfactory, the business might be resumed in this House, The Hon. Gentleman moved-0 That the *bete be adjourned for three weeks." Mr. SIMEON vindicated the Lord Chancellor from what he thought a stigma, cast upon him by the Hon. Gentleman, by the observations he had made. The public would be deluded if they were allowed to think that blame was imputable to the Lord Chan cellor. From the statement of the Hon. Gentleman, it would appear as if the Noble Lord did not devote much time to the suitors of his Court, but rather at tended to politics. There was a vast variety of judi cial business which the public knew nothing of, such as demurrer, bills of exceptions, &c. which the Noble Lord was obliged to attend to. When the Honour able Gentleman talked of only one cause being heard, be was not correct ; and he -certainly had not done the. Noble Lord justice in quoting.from a publication in 'which the author had misstated and misrepretented the cases, and had charged the Court of Chancery 'with making use of the money of 'suitors in building a Register Office, and come other buildings .for 'the convenience of the officers of the Court. Mr. Simeon bete very satisfactorily refuted the assertions contain ed in Mr. Beckwith's book. With respect to the mo- Lion, he should vote against it, because the matter was taken up in another" Place. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY declared, that if the question of adjournment were not carried, he should :Icote for the motion of his Hon. Friend ; and be was desirous of stating . his reasons for giving the vote which he should give on this occasion. The minion would not convey, either directly or indirectly, any park of tens lee upon the Noble and Learned Lord, its the Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Simeon) sup posed ; and he did assure the House, that nothing could give hits') greater concern than to be thought to give ins consent to any motion which could in any way be construed into a desire to reflect upon the con duct of that Noble and Learned Lord. No man had experienced more uniform acts of kindness than him self from the Noble and Learned Lord. Indeed his general attention to the Bar, his conciliatory demea nour, and his strict love of justice, had endeared him re all the Gentlemen who practised is that Court.— Hear, hear, hear.) A man snore eminently qualified, In point of talents and learning, for all parts of his profession, he knew not ; and lie most firmly believed that he never had his equal, in point of anxiety, to do justice to the suitors of the Court. ( T h ar , hear. ) If he had any defect, it was an over-anxiety in that res pect. (Hear, Hear.) That being his opinion, it could not be imputed to him (Sir Samuel) that he wished in any thing he might say, to reflect on the character or conduct of the Noble and Learned Lord ; but when it was notorious that great and crying griev ances really existed, would it not be as his Hoil'. Friend had justly said, " a denial of justice, " not to inquire into them ? The fact was , that from the great pressure of business within the last two years, causes had stood for that time in the Lord Chancellor's pa per for hearing, without having yet been heard. Was not this period of delay a sufficient ground for in quiry ? In the House of Lords the delay was of a much greater length. In one cause, which was that of a cepy-right, which had been before the House some years limn the . Court of Session, at the time the deciston was known, the interest had ceased, for the period of the right (14 years) had expired. Another man who was about to present a petition was pining in gaol. With respect to the question, the first thing, to be done was to ascertain the cause of the evil com plained of—that being done, then to pro fide a remedy either of a permanent or a temporary nature. Who. titer that could be done by making an addition to the Judicial Officers, or in whatever other manner, was .• she subject of after dicussion. He much doubted whether the increase of causes since the time of my Lord Hardwicke, was greater or not. The case of liiankrup - :zies was certainly a great evil. The number of Commissions sealed in the last year was as many as in the preceding year: A Cotnmission in that re . "ftlpe.ct might assist the Chancellor, and by affording a ututpktary ressiesin yet rid of the press of batiaeis • `t . ' l { i: y ~~~ ~:~i'~~' .. 6f that nature. The Itighl had stated that the inquiry .nowsta&ed whether any o. it was in the contemplation ward a plan. At the Right Hon. Gentleman, involved great difficulties. but a Committee, nothing wards of ten months, tho' _ much ;A. mised. It was the duty of this Ho u s e to great 5... _ Kingdom—the: inquiry, and not to wait for any result of proceedings would have great weight upon the minds of the pen., iin another place. This House was the proper channel ple of Ireland: Reoleitildlnere thought [flit in tom for investigating public grievances, and they most not mon prudence, he had almost said, in common justice, l be stopped because a Committee in another place were they were bound to adopt ! this course, in order, that cluing about them. while they fonod it necessary to awake the rigour of • 1 The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER. the law, they might give the people every assurance mid, that he thought the most expedient course was, i of the good intentions of the Government. He wish es the delay complained of consisted chiefly in the ; ed to be informed also, whether his Majesty's Law. appellant jurisdiction of the House of Lords, the re- , O ffi cers were consulted, and whether the letter had medy should originate with them. 1 the sanction of their authority ? In this letter was ; The ATTORNEY-GENERAL stated, with re- contained directions to the Sheriffs to order all the gard to the proceedings in the Courts of Law, that , Magistrates throughout Ireland to act according to, there was not the slightest occasion for any alteration ' its instructions. If the necessity were so cogent its to there. The business of each term was concluded in ' prevent even the delay which would be required ne , the term, and that.of every sitting was concluded be- , advise with th e Lord Lieutenant and the C o unc il, fore the commencement of the next term. la very few moments would have been sufficient to Mr TAYLOR agreed to the Amendment of his consult those who were itt ,thOlidltit of advising , Hon. Friend, but complained that the arguments of the Crown in law cases, did thititiglit Honourable another Hon. Friend of his were ratherdirected against Gentleman avail himself of that. ,a he letter warned a book which he did not write, than against any thing the Sheriffs that an unlawful assembly was sitting in he had said. He quoted some additional cases of delay, Dublin calling itself the Catholic Committee ; he and disclaimed any intention to cast the slightest re- I would wish to know why the Right Hon. Gentleman flection upon his Noble Friend who was placed at the called the Catholic Committee an unlawful a s s embl y , head of the Court of Chancery. 1 by whose advice, or upon what information, he felt After a few words from Sir Joust NEWPORT and ' himself justified in so doing ? if it was an unlawful Mr. WILBERFORCE, lassembly, why did he su ff er it, to exist so long, and The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER I exist in the very seat of Government ? Did he think said, it was his intention, if the motion of Adjourn- it was not unlawful until he had published his letter ? meet were negatived, to move the previous question. 'or did he, knowing it to be unlawful, think it right to The House then divided, when there appeared—' connive at it ? Why then did he alter his conduct t For the Motion 47—Against it 87—Majority against The letter proceeded to direct that Magistrates should the Amendment 40. cause to be arrested and committed to prison all peso The previous question was then carried. sons guilty, or having been guilty, so that it referred num CATHOLIC COMMITTER. to time past, as well as to time future. Why thee, Mr. PONSONBY said, that in rising to make the he would again ask, if this retrospective caution viere l Motion which he should have the honour to submit to necessary was the Committee permitted to act s o I the House, he felt great satisfaction at see in g the long ? All its acts were notorious, they were all well Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Wellesley Pole) I known to Government as its own, or as the com- in his'plate, whose letter, now lying on the table by , monest transaction that passed before 'the public eye, order of the House, was the cause oldie motion with I yet no notice was taken of it before, and it, was per- which he should cohclade. Whether he (Mr. Pon- , mitted to conduct itself in a manner which was after ! sonby) succeeded in his proposition or not, one good ' wards regarded with so much terror and abliorrence effect he was convinced would' result from the deci- ; The letter ordered further, that they should be ar- Ision of it, the Right Hon. Gentleman would feel rested and committed to prison, unless bail were given I himself called upon. to state the motives by which the l— thit t he first act of Government should be to order Government of Ireland *is actuated in issuing the . all Magistrates to proceed against the people. Was letter directed to thedotiri Magistracy of Ireland, and ' there any lenity in this proceeding ? was there any icommanding them 'to arrest under certain propositions view to the interests of the country, to policy, or to three.fourths of the , entire population. He was anxi- ' humanity ? Was this the kind of warning people , • ous to hear what the facts were which could induce 'should expect from a mild and beneficent Govern- ' i Government to adopt such a procee di nt, for he must tnent ? Besides, the Committee had done no act suppose that at the moment (if the promu l g a t ion of ;from the Ist of January, the date of Mr. Hay's tit--; this letter, some danger, unknown to Parl ia m ent at ' cular letter, up to the 12th of February. The Right ' preoent, must have been apprehended , or an a ssembl y I H on. Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of the Ex known to have been in existence two years, and up. chequer) had said there was no other cause foe the wards before, would not have been stigmatised as an proceedings taken in Ireland, than Mr. Hay's letter ; : unlawful assembly. He had a newspaper in his handibut ; he was glad the Right Honourable Gentle of great circulation in Ireland, from which he should i man mostokaply interested was now present, that he read some extracts, that the House might see he did , might answer for himself. 'rhe order to commit those not come forward , with statements of his own, nor call ; persons unless bail were given, professed to be found for their interposition on ithaginary grounds. [Here !edon a clause in the Convention Act, which clause he read an extract dated Jan. 10, 1811, which con -l he would now read to the House. [Here he read , tamed an account ' of the proceedings of the Cathblic the clause, which. stated, That every person proved Committee on that day. It stated , 'that the C om- g uilt y of such acts, in due course of law, should be I mittee had agreed to address the Prince of Wales,thiA' considered guilty of a high misdemeanour.] It wits, the Secretary had read several answers from thed iffer- ' remarkable that the o ff ence described in this Act was ent counties to the circular letter addressed to them, against persons meeting to elect, and that it required and that they had expressed their satisfaction at the ap. proof in the due course of law ; but the offence de ',ointment of Lordßoss, who was elected by the county scribed in the letter did:not amount to a breach of the. of Kerry asoneofthemanagersofthe Petition.] Thisdo- peace. The rule in law, he believed, was, that un bument, he said, was circulated as publicly as any Act less-the act amounted to a breach of the peace, the was ever circulated in Great Britain, and was known Magistrate, who was a Statute O ffi cer, could not de four and twenty days before the publication of the mand bail for treason, felony, and a breach of t h e letter against which his motion was directed. That I peace; he could arrest: but for an act merely tendiagt . , letter was in reality , of great importance , it was an to a breach of the p eace he could not. What wasilue attempt to silence those who had formerly been al- reason that in our law truth was a justification 'for a lowed the privilege of complaining—a privilege which libel, but not in an indictment, because it tended; ata it was not usual to deny to the unfortunate ; and breach of the peace ; yet the Magistrate had no au to take away the right of petitioning the Crown, a thority to arrest for it until the indictment was found? right which Government was not in the habit of Even in cases of conspiracy and perjury, the same prohibiting to the people of these countries. But, rule was applicable • and he believed he might take supposing that the Catholic Committee was an u n- it for a le g al truth, ;hat, for an act only tending to a lawful acsemhly, why was it permitted to exist so breach of the peace, no man would be committed in long ? The paper from which he had read was print- the first instance. But whether he was right in this ed in the very city in which (the Lord Lieutenant or not, he apprehended that the Magistrates could lived ; why did net that call the attention of the Go- not commit any one upon the authority of the circu vernment to their proceedings, if, indeed, it was so lay letter. The words of the letter were o attending, necessary to the well-being of the country that they voting, or acting, or having,attended,voted, or acted;" should be checked in their designs ? At this time, but the words of the Act itself were much more cau it would be recollected that the Administration was tistus and equitable : . they were, "if any person not thought to be permanent. Reports had gone should attend and vote, or by any other means vote abroad, and were pretty generally believed, that or act," &c. so that it did not, like the letter, a change was about to take place. But still, if make the bare attendance criminal. The law was the mischief was so great, as from the measures strict enough, and perhaps needed no addition of se resorted to, it must appear they were considered, verity. But there were other circumstances connect he could scarcely suspect the Administration of ied with the transaction as extraordinary as this.— such selfish conduct as to resolve upon leaving the When, for the purpose of enforcing the law, the mischief behind them, as a legacy to their sasses- RightHonourable Gentleman sent two Police-Officers sors. These proceeengs went on until the twelfth to disperse the Committee, the officers demanded who I , of February, when, after the Prince of Wales was they were, and being answered that they were not the appointed Regent, and restricted in such a man- Catholic Committee, went away perfectly satisfied.— ner by the Bill, the Letter to the Magistrates was • Whatever aspect the letter itself might bear, the tries. promulgated for the first time by the Secretary of 1 seltzers he sent were certainly messengers of peace State for Ireland. The House, no doubt, would ;and harmony.: they had not such terrific notions of , desire to be informed, Why it was considered ne.l the danger as he had himself, or they would not have 1 cessary to adopt this change of conduct and what , taken their own words for it. After dwelling for was the alteration in the circumstances of the case, • some time upon the messages between Mr. Pole and which varied it so essentially as to justify and explain the Catholic Committee, he went into a train of ar this seeming contradiction. It could not have pro- I gument for the purpose of shelving that if it were an 1 ceeded tom a wish to involve the Regent in unpo. , unlawful. assembly, it should not have been permitted pularity, such a design he would not ascribe to them ;1 to sit as it had done since. He wished to know whe but it was necessary that the House should be in.. tber Government had found that it was mistaken in formed upon what motive it did ground, and upon i point of law or fact, whether it had discovered that what ground it was to be defended. The Act of Par. ! the assembly nas not unlawful and that the intention, liament referred to in the letter of the Secretary of , was not dangerous ? He did not attribute any intent- State, though a law of Ireland, was never put in force , tion to the Government of Ireland good or bad, be before ; and when it was to be put in force against cause he did not understand it, it was altogether in the alledged proceedings of so great a portion of tire comprehensible, and he hoped the Right Hon6nrable population of that country, Ministers should at least Gentleman would be able to solve the enigma. The have considered as to the best means of taking such proceeding was one of the greatest moment to Ire ' a step. According to the Constitution under which he'd and to the kingdom at large. Ireland was al we lived, the Crown had the power to enforce such ready, from different causes, sufficiently irritated, and laws as had lain dormant for any time, but were if he might judge from the newspapers, the measure 'gain become necessary in the revolution of events, of the Right Hon. Gentleman had created the sorest '1 the usual course was by proclamation by the feeling in the Roman Catholics of Ireland ; a cir - in. Conned. The Lori Lieutenant was the re. ennutaace which he was esafideat would slim the malting some attempt to :pay his ,recapitoLiting his arguments, be um. Address shout! be presented to h*, Regent, requesting that he wool! or:! . 0 tante copi:• of am prociatrunkns is.ot i ; b y .4 of Irel.nuf in Council, relat•ve to to the A• 3 assemblies; Elsa c9pies of sasLs on the &one the A tt , ro( : ) , -and Qicitor Generals of terra + opinions thereupon; and copies or caftans Of from the Lord liAttelant." 'Omit that in eirery ofiiew the Honourable'ane e i. x e r M a i rn n ah ed a*tioGeE:a:ll: ( lt" . e f lieneS se lifLr'ecelnEA v; : fa id i ttPicl e melt e kLi t ahi'caig h ThctEh e t H wt"; o 4dris n tl . 'lve : Y ee rri n sh t h: ti n7 tten fitaineniorll4.7 e : ; in th e a ri t tl,t ie t a e l t posite, had test been•so f eoeteetedhy theirprue enee and justice, as to induce them to teft•ain Rini enter. ing into any discussion en the snbj .etederese the ne cessary absence from the • Hottae off that Individual, from whom alone their rem:eke totted reeeve hi complete and stisfactner enterer: . The line of duct which had been adopted •isyethetee Hnotourabli Gentlemen, and which was directly 'the reverse of that which was to. have been expected frnm theta, had been in several respects eetrernely •njerintn; bet this was a point on which, at the present nutmeat. be was nor disposed further to dwell. lie was envious mho' to Me net toeetette 18 the charges preerrei by the Hon. and Learned Gentlemen mere-Ist the Irish Government. Those charges he wouli take the berty of dividing tender two heads : The first was, the accusation advancedby the Hnnourable Gentleman against the Irish Goternment, f r not having stewed the law sooner. The Hon. Gentleman argued, that if the meeting ender the denomination of the Catholic Committee was illegal, the Lord Lieutenant was bound to stop it et an earlier period, and would have done so, had he entertained a just tense of what was due to the peace and happiness of the country. He would not enter inter the question, whether, when the Catholic Committee was originally constituted, it was of an illegal description ? bat he would distinctly state, that the Lord Lieutenant, lookisig at the pro. ceedings of that Committee from May, 18/e9, felt it to be his duty to abstain, if possible, from taking any step which might be perverted into an attempt upea the part of Government to prevent the Catholics frets tlrly and freely eomtnenicating their•petitions to Per. ement, and to the Throne. In reading the account oldie debates on this tubjeet, whichend taken place biles absence, he could not , kelp feeling very much satisfied with many parts of the speech of an Hon. Friend of his opposite, who had always evinced true patriotism, and was au oenansent to his 'country and to that House (Mr. Grattan.) a e great deal of what had been said by his Hon. Friend, he cordially concurred. He felt with him that it was the boun den duty of the Irish Government to administer that Government tenderly and mercifully towards the Catholics ; to give to the Catholics the full benefit of the laws ; and by no act of theirs to trench in the slightest degree on the privileges allowed In the Ca tholics by the Leeislatute: However his Honeurabt friend and himself might differ with respect to the adeitionel privileges to be granted to the Catholics, they were agreed that they should be treated by the Government with the utmost tenderises and kindness. He trusted that he should be abioto thew that such had been the caw : and that-the whole tenor of the he of Richmond's adminittratine in Ireland brad keen one system of tenderness, of conciliation, ant of justice. On assuming the government of that e.un ety, his Grace had dettaredto the Catholics with that ,manliness which distiogeishedhis character, that al though they were.to expect from him no further pri vileges than the law allowed, they should 'receive :he purist justice ; that their rights should ndt be invad ed ; that the Aces which were open to them Leonid be fairly open ; that he would entertain no jeelousies or partialities ; and that no Protestant desule be en -couraged to degrade or hurt their feelings. it was in the true spirit of this original declaration that t'e Government Sender the Duke of Richmond, had al ways acted. The Huaourabk and Learned Geneo man had asked why, when the Catholic Committee was established in 1809, it had not been supprosed as illegal ? He 'would tell that Honourable Code man why. In doing this it wouldbe necessary t,T him to refer to the discussions which had taken piece in the Catholic Committee, both of that and the res:nt period; but his reference should be as cop.:iv: as possible, for, in Isis defence of the Irish GA? ernti Jen', he was determined not to be led to rothe ia House those feelings,. with which all who 10ve, 4 , 'he Constitution must he animated, on a coneeteeion of the principles lately promulgate e in that aeetriey. In the month of May, 1 8 0 9 , there had been a gm rat meeting of the Cethoiles, the Earl of Fingel in the Chair, in which certain resolutions were agreed to, alearly indicating that the meeting were fully n ame of the nature of the Convention Act. The lioncer able and Learned Gentleman himself indeed had no: contended that that act was obsolete, or had bee , me a dead letter. He repeated that the re fo eutionseened to at this meeting of honest. loyal , and to Jour Cie J• I lies, anxious to convey to the foot of the Throne aei to Parliament, a declaration of what they believed to be their rights, ended with the resolution to which he had alluded, which stated their knowledge . of the es ', isting law, and their wishi not to transgress ; for this resolution declared, that the persons who were instruc iteead to tee, pre a p s arkewtahseipempti:rioantiveeoucl,ndnothemt be ctuenfisindiesrhedthdeeir mission the first fortnight after the meeting of Parlia ment. For this purpose a Committee was accord ingly established, composed of the 36 representatives of the different parishes in Mnblin, who on a pre vious occasion bad formed a similar Committee, with which Committee he believed the lionoerA'Ac and Learned Gentleman, when in office in Ireland, Led had some communication. He would not absolutel! at assert it as a fact, but it was strongly meanuredr at that period the Hon. and Learned I:Wideman sad the Chief Secretary tot that Govern m ent had w arned the Committee aga i nst proceeding in such a ! n e arer as to draw upon themselves the operation of the Coe Vetition Act. Be that•as it might, however , the Core enittee of 1809 was composed of th ose 36 p ersons ; eR the remnants of the two Committees who prepat re . th 'the Catholic Petitions of 16 v 05 and 1807 ; and leet Members ache Catholic Convention of 1793 as were still alive. The Government of Ireland had a tee-, platets C om mitt ee.k no e d ire of T a h l all tl ci l e t p te a s ss w ed ere at y t e b b e em m es eeti . e b g l ut s ; a i such a nature as to shelf to every fairend tight Honourable anti pressatative of Majesty in Ireland. and Itelotts.tnr- propriety of his m wiry was going on, but had prided Alfa the Lord Lieutenant in Coward did not conduct. After.re plan was matured, or* hOt#oclamation, and adopt that fair , liberal ,. and elud ed with movir aeon of any one to brie for., putttl mode of irifortning and cautioning the ,p,a) That an !amble same time he admitted to the ple. l . l lf that had been done, the people would be in- Highness the Pante Het n, laid before the ot n, that it was a question which tructed s in a manner tilt+ Most soothing, and not by . the o l. st ord tal L u t f ten o ant e c , ies. If nothing was projected an authority the most impressive. The Lord Lieure- iing then bad been done for up- neat and the Council, among whom were the Lord Skimlaidbetbie t k e though much had been pro- Chancellor, the Attorney and Solicitor-Generals, and tcgether with 'Kir true o r certain dispatches utv of this House to make the severa l other great Officers of the kingdom—theme -L- A. Mr. WELLES in 7,, ~~~ e`, ~); -~®~ '~.+'.~ V m a I