Star. — London, England, 1811-01-29 00:00:00

deemed it necessity to take for ~cement, they had never pretended . electing Peers. (How.) Nor had HOI . _autionally proceeded to interfere with .Thei.ooso oliAoicei.oott took the Woolsack at a guar-' the composition and conduct of the House of Lords. ter past five. • —(Hear.)—But should their Lordships think that Earl GRO•SVENOR stated, that not having very recently at. ! any sieekietien was necessary on the Regent, as to tooted in Hts place, lie ion fade this opportunity of expressing the creation of Peers, he wouh lei dtsaperibatton of ow greater part of the fate proceding,. . l say, that the approve d o f the urging it hlsewhere, in the first inatance, was a thou g h he certainly had, in the first instance, male of 1 „6.., di „ g I, y gin. I kind of infringement on the House of Lords. What r ertyatio. ' would the House of Commons think, it the House of Th. Duke of NORFOLK presented a Petition from the town i . Lords proposed, during the present existence of the of Lewei v io san e r, on the subject of the RegencTs praying t" ' circumstances, to interfere with their privileges in the the appointment of the Prince oi Wales without restrictions, etc. ~ . . . origination of Money.bills ? Perhaps some Ministers The Petition, on the motion of the Noble Duke, was ordered to 1;.: read, which was accordingly done by the Lowe, and to tie . elsewhere, who had joined others in their usurpation of upon the table. , the powers of the Government, could not be supposed REEOR I E FROM THE COMMITTEE OS THE'RECIEINCY IIILL• very careful of the privileges of the Houseof Commons The Report of the Committee was brought up, in such transactions. The present Administration, The Duke of SUSSEX then rose, and said, that which had been particularly distinguished by the title he.had taken that opportimity for the purpose of ex- • of the No Popery Administration, was the most pa pressing once more, generally, the opinions he enter.' pistical Administration he had ever heard of. If ge , tkned . respecting the important measures then passing : . neral report spoke true, money had actually been is under the consideratihn of the Noose, feeling, as he sued previous to the passing of the recent resolutions 2441, in their full force, all the objections he had al- . of Parliament on that subject.--lifeer.)—His Royal ready stated. . His objections were insuperable to all Highness had never yet heard of any Sovereign that the leoling provisions of this measure, with the ex. dispensed with oaths, except the Pope. (Hear.)— ception of the resolution , that it was unfortunately But this no popery administration found no delicacy teeessary to . have a Regent—of the resolution by in such a matter. They were quite equal to such a which tlae*Alection of il4errinee to be the Regent difficulty—in their facilities of dispensation they might was ma4e-rpant of tote eommitting. the care of his be said to have swallowed the Pope ! (Hear.) He .11Clielity's Strain' to (hi guardianship of the Queen. ; begged the House to consider welt the delicate situa. These who were the framers of this measure had pro. tion in which they were placing the Constitution by needed _by what he considered to be a series of viola. encouraging the two Houses of Parliament to inter- Idols. They commenced by a violation of precedents ; fere with the Executive branch of the Government, , for there was no precedent which they had quoted ' and the peculiar rites and duties of the Kingly office. that was sufficiently analogous to the present case ; Such was the lust of power and dominion which often and, then, they violated the law by the two Houses prevailed in the hearts of men, that it behoved of Parliament taking upon themselves to do that ! them to watch over it constantly and check its pro which required the concurrence of the three branches 1 ! gress. How insidious a measure it was to shut up consequently, they had violated, under form of law s ' that House from the Constitutional exercise of the the constitution of the land. His Royal Highness I Kingly power vested in the person of the Regent ! knew, that by this public expression of his sentiments i Thus striking at one of those legal rights of the and reprohation•et the measures pursued by the Mi.! Crown, at the present moment, was unworthy of nisters, he might Anal himself exposed to a variety of ; British honour, and particularly of those hereditary attacks from different quarters. He felt himself, i legislators who were the hereditary counsellors of the however, regardless of that danger, and determined : Crown. Our ancestors had, it would appear, wisely on such an exigency to acquit Iris conscience ; and thrown a delicate veil over the rights and duties of ) :perform his duty as a Peer of Parliament, by deli- I the King. Regencies might be sometimes rendered oieering his free and unbiassed opinion upon what ' necessary; but there was nobody who would not wish /means it was proper for the House of Lords to adopt. ; that such a necessity should toe occur—but since dint He was aware thet among ether things he might bu , necessity had occurred he most maintain, that the accused of a want of delicacy : he could not tell ex. ' Regent ought nos to be a mere commissioner, or a actly upon what ground ; but he would say generally, ! Prime Minister. (Hear.) The illustrious person in answer to any such accusation, that much as he ad-' whom they had selected to be Regent, was the eldest mired the virtue of delicacy, it wasa virtue' son of the King and the heir-apparent if the Crown. which must give way, to a considerable extent, to the (Hear.) It was their duty, he repeated, to preserve necessity which great and important public exigencies' and maintain those rights of the Crown, to guard the imposed. All the precedents quoted or reported went liberties of the people and to keep the two Houses of tin further than to prove that our ancestors had not met , Parliament from going astray, by suspending the with a case of csiotnity similar to the present. No ! Executive Pewer. A King himself could have no cases in the report had the smallest analogy to it.' With more need of useless powers than a Regent. What respect to the violas,ion of law, he need only appeal : were the prerogatives of the Crown intended for ? to the manner in , which the Parliament had been , Who dispensed those powers ? the Crown ; which de opened. The Commission by which it was opened, , prived them from just Constitutional grounds, to use! professed to be the act of the Sovereign himself. The ' them fur the maintenance of the constitution. If the; Great Seal which had been made use of was the high ', power of conferring honours were taken away from, instrument by which thefat of the King himself was ! the Crown, the Constitution itself must be impaired. signified. It was the organ of the Royal Authority. • The King had not those powers of conferring honours It was, as it were, the, mouth of the Sovereign. But for private purposes, but for public objects ; they be where, and when, he would ask, had the will of the longed to him in virtue of the Kingly office which he King been made known, when it was notorious that i held, and were considered necessary to the carrying on their very proceedings went upon the unfortunate fact lof the government of the country. If then, they were that for the present the King was without any will of admitted to be necessary to the Kingly office, how his own ? Such a proceeding could not bear the test I could it be maintained that they are not necessary to of examination ; but (I'd bear upon the very face of ! the office of Regent, instituted precisely for the pur it an untruth. (Hear, hear.) This was the act of I pose of -supplying that high branch of the Constitu the two Houses of Parliament assuming the exercise tion ; there could be no doubt that the power of be of the kingly authority without any responsibility at- i stowing the honours of the Peerage was given to the tufted to them. There was not one precedent to be ; Crown to enable it to reward distinguished merit ; found of the two Houses of Parliament assuming and and, secondly, to prevent mischief to the Crown itself, exercising the legislative powers of the Crown.— or to the Constitution, by any powerful combination Let their Lordships quote the statutes, and see how formed within the House of Lords for dangerooe those precedents stood : that of the 16th of Edward Ipurposes of ambition. (Hear, Hear.) If it were 11. the 33d of Henry VIII. the Ist of Philip and I not so, it would be time to consider what the state of Mary, and still more, that of the 15th of Charles 11. 1 the Monarchy might soon become, it the right of which inflicted the penalties of a firemimire (as men , ' making Peers were taken from the Sovereign. Se tioned• in the 16th of Richard II.) on those who main s pamte the power of conferring honour from the kingly mined the power of,tlie two Houses of Parliament tti office, and they would soon find out the consequen enact Laws without the King.. Such being' his de- , ces. Indeed, he would say, rather than curtail, they tided opinion of the impropnety of the course pur- should augment the powers of the regent, seeing that sued, he should trouble their Lordships with stating, his temporary government must unavoidably be what, in his judgment, would have been the best much weaker than that of a King ! (Hear, hear!) mode of proceeding, both for the interests of the If they were to give way to the influence and power Crown and of die Country: and that was, to request of a self-constituted body of men, they might soon his Royal Highness the Prince of Wales to take upon have to give up the best institutions in the country, himself the exercise of the Royal functions. The handed down to them by the wisdom of centuries ;resit Seal, if necessary, could then have been used, past. His Royal Highness could see no shadow of anti the Prince invested with full power to give his reason for thus wounding the Constitution. He could assent or dissent to measures of legislation ; and there not see how it could be consistent with the duty pro would have been no infringement on the Constitu- fessed to the King, his Royal father, and to his bro tomtit:inns of procedure. It was the duty of Par- then, the Prince, to make such attempts, and at such tament, in such circumstances, not to have attempt- a period. Was it fair and manly to deprive the Re ed to curtail, separate, and diminish the Royal rights gent of some of the consolations which his situation sin) pacrogatives, but to preserve and maintain them; might afford him, to make up a little for the acknow en that when it should please the A toitoiery to restore ledged embarrassments that must attend his new du the Ki, his Fevered father, to the exercise of his . ties ? In such a state of evident di ffi culties, such a Royaf tbnctions, he shciold find them in a state en- situation of Royal servitude, ought they to divest the the, unshackled, and unimpaired. (Hear.) It was their, person who has condescended to accept the office, un duty to give to the government, at such a crisis, the der all circumstances, of what a sense of honour and means of eisergy, vigour, and effect. It was the inter- duty, or his own generous disposition, might prompt est of their Lordships, as well as their duty, to keep up him to perform ? He should be very sorry to see the rights and prerogatives of the Crown, which were this measure brought to its conclusion, leaving the important and essential to the balance of the Consti. Prince without this power of dispensing honours.— ation ; by the distinction of which they must inevita. , Warmly as he felt his duty to hi s revered and Royal i impair and injure the whole. His Royal High- Ifather—warmly as he was attached to his Royal broo 'teas readily admitted that the ri g was the servant o*; tier , the Prince of Wales—and deeply as he regard the people, inasmuch as the kingly office itself sires a !ed all that ought to be held dear and sacred in the trust for the public benefit; yet, while he admitted . Constitution for the benefit of the country—he conies-' the. correctness of that description, it was to be re- sed that, like other men, he had his predilections in mentbeied that the King was not a servaut in the : favour of some public persons, in preference to others, situation of one who was to obey another. On the' and a corresponding wish to see them employed in contrary he obeyed non* while all others were under the conduct of the affairs of Government ; but yet him, and owetf to him legal duties. The law ever 'he would say, that he should always feel himself styled that high magistra - te of the country, " Our Sovereign Lord the Kiag." It was particularly in cwt.:bent upon them to take care that the exercise of the Royal fdliCtions by the privilege of the Royal . Veto should not be unconstitutionally circumscribed, limited, or violated. (hear.) He had heard many ' aitusions to history, respecting cases of a similar na tter, but he must repeat;that they did not apply to the circumstances of the present case. The House of Commons had endeavoured, in various instances, to i n crease their ow n power and consequence, and obta:n their just tight in the Constitution. In Richard the S.esoud's time, they first chose their Speaker ; but ‘y. bound to support those who best discharged in their, stations the duties they owed to their country. He bad before said, that he was aware of the possibility of attacks upon him for his public conduct, as he had heard much already of misrepresentations of the cea, duct of his Royal brothers and himself—misrepresen,,, tations and attacks conducted with a baseness that ha could not have expected. He and his brothers, ee l Royal Peers, had dose nothiog which was not called, for by thei; situations and feelings. If they were not the legal, they were at least, the natural representa tives of what regarded the person and interests of , their Royal father; Having thus explaiticti the sea- P1P P11111111.111111111111111.11111111111111111.1111111111.1 .--_ cffhatewer steprthoy iia PARIANtrimRr PROCEEDINGS. i th eir owl) A ggrandizem, ---- • It o the tight of electii HOUSE OF LOROS, MONDAY, JAN. lti. 1 they uncostitutionall) I tite app. The Nr 1;.: read Upon tli The T)u he.hat pressir , tamed under :did, it ready the k ceptio iseeesi which Wall 1 I • if* Dna filois. , roe 0 that and, of P. whicl cons& the c knew and I attar hewe on s► ) ;perfc .verin roma; He s accu: actly in an mired whic, neces impo t►o to with cases resist to th open prole Greed h stn signi It we when their th:st bis of es it an the t of tt, tack foun exer Let tlsos 11. Tian whit tiond ptin mg< Bide suet, whA mot Cro his him Gre • a► asse wot VOM tan rd and an t the Ri rite dut me. ast the log tuft ,bly eta! the rht mei situ con him styl Soy c•m the Vet Jitui Attu curt the COT ince the' Sam • the' of sot= sons on which he acted and voted on important question, lie shettld not further trouble Lordships. A conversation ensued oil several o f the verbal amendments reserved for the - Report, siemo of which were agreed to. • Earl STANHOPE suggested the propriety of omitting the distinctions of G. P. R. Mod George P. R, in the Regent's signature, which produced some observations from Lords GRENVILLE, ELDON, and LIVERPOOL. The clause was passed al it stood. The Earl of LIVERPOOL proposed an addition to the oath to be takes by the Regent, the purport of which was, that he would maintain the Church of Scotland. This addition was agreed to. DURATION OP RESTRICTIONS. The Clause on this subject being next come to, Lord GRENVILLE rose, in pursetance of the no tice he had given on a former night:, to submit art amendment to their Lordships, which world go to lalter the duration of the restrictions on the Regent from twelve to six months, counting from the date or the passing of the present Act. It was not necessary for him to enter much at length into the subject, or long to occupy their Lordships' attention; for the ar guments lay within a very short and narrow compass' —nor had he much to add to the observations he had made on a former night. It might _not be improper, however, to remind their Lordships, that in the Bill of 1789, there was no limitation in respect of time of the restrictions imposed. On looking back to the Journals of the House it would be found that a divi sion took place on the point, whether the restrictions should endure for a time to be .limited; those who supported the Bill, of whom he had the honour to be one, contending that no limitation wat; required, and those who opposed it maintaining the contrary opi nion. Now, however, he was of opinion with those who brought in the present Bill, that some limitation, of time should be put to its enactments ; and he ler tned this opinion from the different nature of the cir cumstances that attended the attack of the malady under which his Majesty now laboured, and those ohs the former occasion. On the first attack of the dis order, there existed no grounds from which a pro bable judgment could be formed of the nature or duration of the malady. Even medical experience and information could furnish fevi materials from which conclusions could be drawn : but at present, from the experience of what had taken place in seve ral attacks, there existed strong grounds for cherish ing the hope, which none would be more unwilling to relinquish than himself, that the malady with which his Majesty was afflicted would be but of short, duration. The reason or assigning a limited period at all was founded on the necessity of providing for the safety of the country, and the precise limits to be given to it should 4:Upend upon the experience which they had of the past. Experience had told them, that there was a period Within whinft the !lapel of recovery might be strongly entertained; and cer-I tainly there was no time when it could be pronounced) that his Majesty's recovery was desperate, for what, there was life there was hope. Whether the tit= which he had to propose, or that proposed by the fn. mere of the Bill, was the most reasonable, it would be for the House to judge. Being compelled to lit r some period, on what other data was he to proceed,' but on those facts which were furnished by expel rience ? Let their Lordships consider the time within which the former recoveries of his Majesty had oc curred. Three several times his Majesty had been ' afflicted with a disorder similar to the present, in its , nature, its symptoms, and its progress ; and as often' he had recovered. ence a favourable omen was derived for future expectation. At no time had the duration of the malady lasted beyond four months.] The duration of the first attack was recorded in the Journals of Parliament. What its precise duration] was in the other two cases he could not now pretend' to state, though a month ago he thought he could, have been able to declare it; but from the circum stances that had transpired in a late debate, he must now be understood to speak of the duration of the' attack in 1801 with great doubt and hesitation.— (Hear, hear.)—But still there could be no doubt that the first attack was the longest ; and the physicians had unanimously stated that no one attack had lasted beyond four months. Their Lordships had not been told, that the present case differed in its nature, symp toms, and progress, from any of the former ; and hence he would deduce the probability that, if recce.. very took place at all, it would not be extended yond the period within which it had happily takep place in former instances. This also appeared to be the judgment of his Ma jesty's Physicians. He had looked back at their ex amination ; and had found that three out of the five ' spoke in strong terms of the probability of recovery within the period when it had formerly occurred.— This was particularly the language of Dr. Willis, who, without speaking at all invidiously of the other most respectable gentlemen, had enjoyed far superior advantages of experience in that particular malady. When Dr. Reynolds was asked his opinion as to the probable duration of his Majesty's complaint, his an swer was, « that if recovery should be protracted be yond the usual period, his confidence would be consi derably diminished." This was the substance of the opinion on which be (Lord Grenville) founded the proposition he had to submit. Despair of ultimate recovery would not in such a case be produced, but confidence would be diminished. Dr. Baillie again bad said, that when he considered the progress of the resent attack, he thought it not unlikely ro last nger than some of the preceding. The Noble Lord then proceeded to cite and comment upon the opi nions of Doctors Heberden and Halford on the: same point ; but he particularly called the attention of the House to that of Dr. Willis. The answer of Dr. Willis was, that he should certainly begin to have a very unfavourable opinion of recovery, if the period of recovery in former attacks should pass by. On these grounds he (Lord Grenville) would rest the Amendment which he had to propose. It was, that , the restrictions should last for a period of sir months, counting from the Ist of February next, about which time it was likely that the Bill would pass ; which would give in all , a period of-nine months from the commencement of the malady, being considerably more than doable of any other period within which recovery took place. IT within that period there was no recovery, then the hopes of amendment must be less confident, and all restriction on the Executive Power ought to expire. Before he sat down, he hardty thought it necessary to guard himself against that vaigar and despicable idea which hat been insi- awed elsewhere, ()fixing less actuated than he ought to be with becoming feelings of delicacy Anti respect bawards his Sovereign. It such a charge WAS tw.,v attempted in any quarter, be must remind tlkir Lordships, that every such charge was equa lly ~,. Ilent and forcible against those who proposed twelve months—(Hear, hear.) It was agreed on all ham's 'bat s ome limit must be fixed, and - the only quessiili was, which of the two periods proposed was cons , .. slant to fact, to meiical experience, to sound rano. g, and judicious deduct,on ? But there was ore argument against the Amendment which be shoal now anticip ite, and that was, its bring desirable that Parliament should be sitting at the close of the re. saki lit - • rising before the VA An ,ooked it the spite tine inJecii if be belie men, conk' ss.it Aminesc cosayl be duly. He 5h0..11 111111," !Se wus4:6 " August, till," be insetted. . . Lord SIDMOUTH observed, that the opinions which were expressed on the present important woes. tioe. have generally turned on the temporary nature of his Majesty's disorder, and on the probability of his recovery. On the latter, his Noble Freud Vito spoke last (Lord Grenville) seemed chiefly to refit _the atguments which he adduced in suppoit of his Amendment. But these arguments must and were chiefly drawn from the.evidence of the Physicians. Now the evidence of all the Physicians w is in favour of his Majesty's recovery. They all thought it pro liable. The restrictions and limitations proposed to be laid on the Regent rested upon the same basis of the probability of the King's recovery. When the King's-recovery became so improbable as to render these restrictions and limitations unfit to be centaur/d i [ then, it was-argued, they should be taken off, or its rothel - Wards, they should cease, as soon as the eroba bility ceased of his Majesty's recovery. Much he wished, that throughout the whole of this business, Noble Lords had-adhered to the simplicity of that argtithent. But his Noble Friend seemed to insiuu , ate, that at first he had no experience respecting the nature of the King's malady. What ! was nia th it experience recorded on the Journals of their Lo4l - House ? Might not Noble Lords there find the opinions and tfie judgment of Dr. Willis, opt. nions and a judgment grounded on kirg and various experience ? Does not Dr. Willis there state, that ( the course of his observations enabled him to say, that the greater number of patients whom he hid seen, recovered within eighteen months? In answer to the question put to him, how soon he conceived that patients so afflicted might recover ? he replied that the average might be from three to fifteen months. They had often, indeed, recovered within three months after he had been called in. Then his Noble Friend must allow that their Lordships had expe rience so far to proceed upon, and that the experience of the person who was acknowledged to be the most practised in the treatment of such complaints.. Thor Lordships bad then on the Journals the grounds of ithe restrictions which were proposed, and of the de gree of duration which should be given to the Bill.— The clause, so far extending the duration of the Bill, came recommended to him, because it had the sanc tion of this experience and authority ; and it came further recommended to him, because when its du ration was to expire, it would have the judgment of Parliament to regulate the proceedings which should then be adopted. But his Noble Friend would assert that, in fair reasoning, and in just argument, the pe riod of six months should be considered sufficiently long. Such an assertion could rest only on the sup position, either that the King must be recovered by the Ist of August, or that then his recovery must be so improbable, that the restrictions should then be taken off. These were points, into an examination of which, it could not but be painful to enter—but the view which he had taken of the general evidence of the Physicians, enabled him to draw inferences front it, very different from those which seemed to he de duced from it by his Noble. Friend. In his mina, how ever, and he would thank GOD for it, there was never less room for difference of opinion on this point.— But with this impression on his mind, he could not well set forth and establish, with a minute reference to the evidence of the different Physicians, a detail which, he much feared, must greatly fatigue the at tention of their Lordships ; but it was necessary to go into it at some length, in order to chew that it did not conntenance the Amendment moved for by his Noble Frierid. The Noble Viscount then proceeded to read different parts of the Examination of the Pity cisians ; and, when Noble Lords read it, be hoped they would attend to the questions as well as to the answers respecting the point on which his tsroblurtknd rested the whole of his observations. These observa tions tended to prove, that if the term of his Majesty's , disorder was protracted beyond its limits on former occasions, the probability of -his recovery would be come fainter, if the symptoms continued to be the , same. But his Noble Friend did not seem to take the symptoms into his consideration, but merely the-time. The symptoms, however, the Physicians never I.or sight of. They repeated again and again, that if the symptoms continued the same, and the disorder was protracted beyond its duration on former occasions, then the probability of the King's recovery would be less favourable. Now, it afforded him the utmost sa tisfaction to know, that a material change had already taken place, and that the amendment was gong on. The symptoms, therefore, did not remain the same ; land; therefore, the opinions of the Physicians, if fairly stated, would not make out his Noble Friend's argu , ment. It was on the favourable change in the symp i toms, and not on the greater or less duration of the disease, that the Physicians founded their opinions ; ' for they observed, that that particular illness was very different at different times. •P•ey could not even conjecture what might be its duration—it was longer in 1788 than in 1804, which they could not account for. But he would repeat, that i: was upon the change in the symptoms, anti not on the duration of the disorder, that they formed their opinions of the probability of recovery. This was a point to which he hoped their Lordships would particularly attend. This it was which, in his conscience and judgment, afforded him the m os t con fid ent h opes ; and this, in his mind, was th e f a i r i nterpretat i on w hi c h s h ou ld bo put on that part of the evidence of the Plies clans, on which his Noble Friend seenaed to lay so hitch stress. nsictions, and the probabillry of its ri Ist of August. Ihis appeared to hit rounded idea ; for any man who 100 of the pubrw. business must be sangui believed, that, while the Repency c mence till Febru.n t, the public bit brought to a close belay the eud of Ji :onclude with moving— That, ito7Natl of that. words gi Felartaa.7,‘ • ii