Star. — London, England, 1811-04-06 00:00:00

cast were not likely to be argued in the ensuing term, s hould make a specific motion on the subject, not n.erely with a view :o the hardship of the CASE', but in order a, p r opose•an alteration of the law, or perhaps a r-ipeal of the Act under which Mr. De Young had been convicted. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought those who hal heard the ts;oble Lord must be led to ima gine that some improper delay had taken place.— Viien the question was. put to him by the Noble Lord som: time ago, the Courts were not sitting. It being s oh:equent to the last term, he (thc. Attorney-Gene ral) Lad thou replied, that the case remained to be a rgued, and that he was ready to argue it when call ed ryon. He wished it to be observed that it was impoisible for it to have been argued between that time and this, there having been no opportunity since _ t he one term being ended when the question was F ut, and the next not begun wnen the subject wa s again brought forward. lie was not aware the pro. secution had been dropped, and expected the point reserved, would he argued the ensuing term. While , )it his lugs, the House would perhaps allow him to r eply to a ciiarge preferred against him some .ime bctore by the N. ilde Lord, for dropping a prosecution against a Mr. Collier for printing a.libel. He (the Attorney-General) had now the satisfaction of saying —satistacti•)n for himself, as it enabled him to repel the charge, that he bad heard the next day, that Mr. Collier had been tried at Lancashire, and convicted. (Vicar, hear, liter. ) Lord FOLKSTONE observed, the statement of the Learned Gentleman was irrelevant ; and was pro ceeding tr, offer sonic further remarks,,when The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER spoke to order. He was surprised to hear the Noble Lord complain that the statement of nis Learned riei:Ll was irrelevant, when the whole of what had fallen from him was completely so, and when he was proceeding to speak a second time, though he had no right to a reply. Lord FOLKSTONE said, his conduct was per- fectly regular: The SPEAKER remarked, the Noble Lord had a right to ask a question, but not to make a second speech. A motion was then made, that the Estimates of the Storekeeper-General's-Department should be referred to the Committee of Supply. On the question being put, Lord FOLKSTONE said he had a right now to say what the Right Hon. Gentleman refused to let him say before on the former question. The SPEAKER desired the Noble Lord to sit down. It was not regular for a Member so to rise. The House was to decide whether or not its laws should be neglected. Mr. WHITBREAD thought if it was not the law of the House, it at least had been the practice, as he instanced on one or two occasions. He gave it as his opinion, that the Noble Lord was entitled to such an indulgence from the practice of the House. He meant no disrespect to the Speaker, but left it to him and to the House to decide. The SPEAKER replied the rule of the House was one thing, its indulgence another. If it was their pleasure, they could then indulge the Noble Lord. In some instances such indulgence might be more incon venient titan in others. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL would be very sorry the Noble Lord should be refused an opportu silty of replying to any thing he hid said. Lord FOLKSTONE did not intond to detain the 1-louse.—The Attorney• General bad said (as he had done before), that he (Lord Folkstone) had charged him (the Attorney-General) with having dropped the prosecution instituted against Mr. Collier, and had seemed to triumph over him on the occasion. He (Lord Folkstone) denied having ever preferred such a charge. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL assured the Noble Lord, that if, on a fornh.r occasion, he (Lord Folk stone) had corrected the misapprehension on his part, he (the Attorney-General) would not have brought fni ward the subject on the present occasion ; but as he did not correct hiin when he mentioned the cir cumstance before, he had no idea that he had misun derstood the Noble Lord. The Estimates of the Storekeeper-General's De rtment were then ordered to be referred ; and the HHouse immediately resolved itself into the Committee. Mr. WHARTON moved, that there should be granted, • £3400 for the Civil Establishment of the Bahama Islands, in addition to the salaries. £.030 for the civil charges of the Bermudas. To a question from Mr.I.VIIITBREAD, Mr. STEPHEIT replied, that the Judges in the greater part of the old Colonies were not piofessirzial men, but gentlemen of the country, and serving without . salaries. £1;00 for the Civil Est abiishrnent in Dominica. £10,450 ha the Civil Establiahtnetst of the Province of Upper Canada. £12,965 for the Civil Eatablishment •f the Paatine* of Nora Scotia. £5,600 for that of the Province of Newllioureleit. "..2,0n0 for that of the Island of Cape Breton. .6:3,100 for that of Prince Edward's Island. £:2,991 for that of Newfoundland. l'w,oriu for the r.robahle amount of Bills expecte{ to be drawn irons New South Wales in the year 1811. TO a questiso from Mr. WHITDREAD as to the ground upon which it was expected that hills to that amount would be drawn, and far what ? Mr. WHAII TON replied, for supplies of provisions and other ne cessaries imported from China. And a sum of £19,400, to defray the expeeces of the Store hei.per-Generars department. l'he House then resumed, and the report was or dered to be received on Monday next. CONSOLIDATID FUND. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER lave notice that on Monday, in the Committee of ,Lys and Means, he would move the Vote of the of the Consolidated Fund. On the motion of Mr. TIERNEY, the following pa pets were ordered to be laid before the House : , lcc4unts of all the Sums paid into the Consolidated Fund, • from the sth April, 1810, to the Stis April, 1811, dis:inguishing • the sums rind is each quarter. Arrears of the Property and Assessed Taxes outstanding on the Ith April, 1811. Account. of the Nett Receipts of the Permanent War Taxes • from the sth April, 1310, to the 6th April. 1811; and Accutunts of the Arrears of the Property and Assessed Taxes collected in the last four years, ending April 5, 1811, distin guishing the assessment of each year fa England and Scotland. PIMA. Lord FOLKESTONE, in the absence of an Ho- Pourable Friend (Mr. Creevey), asked the Right Honourable the President of the Board of Coatroul, I , when eettain mete relative to Ng evil affairs at Madras, moved for last sessirtn, and the order for Which was renewed in the ;resent sess ,n, would be likely to be presented ? Mr. DUNDAS replied, tlytt every requisite mea sure had been taken to expedite the return to the or order of the House, and that he had reason to think that the papers would be very shortly produced to the House. RULLION REPORT. Mr. HORNER, in consequence of an intimation which had been given on a former night by an Hon. Friend of his, that he would that night fix the time for bringing forward the discussion on the Report of the Bullion Committee, proposed, with the advice and assistance of the House, to determine then the time and the mode of bringing that question under the consideration of the House. Though he had on a former occasion stated it to be his intention to move for leave to bring in a BO to repeal the restriction, upon consulting some friends he found that they thought it would he a more advisable mode in the first instance to submit to a Committee of the whole 'House certain 12 , solutions founded upon the Report which had been made by the Bullion Committee last Session. He underaood that it would be more con formable to the practice of Parliament, whether he should proceed by Bill or by Resolution, to submit 'the propositions previously to a Committee of the whole House. It was his intention in rising that night, to fix the day on which he should submit his ' resolutions to the House in Committee; and unless the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite should have any objection to it, also to make it an order of the day; that the House should resolve into such Committee on the day he should fix. If any objec tion was felt to this course, it was not his wish at that hour to go into any discussion of the question, and he should content himself with giving notice of such la motion for some future day. This was the mode in which he meant to proceed. With respect to the ,time, he had to express his sincere regret that he had 'been himself the cause of a greater delay of the dis cussion of this question than he could have wished. It was a subject upon which it was extremely desira ble that the House should come to some final decision with as little delay as possible. But; however he might have reason to regret the delay which had al ready taken place, he had the satisfaction to know that from the postponement of the question hitherto, nd great inconvenience to the public had ensued. The evil - which existed depended,asthey all knew, upon tem porary causes, and it might therefore perhapshavebeen desirable to allow some interval to elapse previous to the discussion of the subject, in order to observe how these temporary causes might or might not give way to time, and consequently to ascertain what those causes were which more especially called for the attention of the House. When he had proposed to fix his notice for the present evening, he had enter tained a hope that he should be able to bring forward the question before the recess • and he had fixed on that night as the earliest on which he could be able to attend in his place. He felt how desirable it was to have a full attendance upon such a question, and many gentlemen of mue s li more weight than himself were of opinion that it ought not to be brought eat be fore the recess. He acceded to their opinions, and should defer the consideration of the question till af ter the recess ; but at the same time was desirous to bring it in as early as a full attendance could reason ably be expected. If there should be no objection to the course he proposed, he should conclude with moving, that the House should on Monday, the 29di day of April, resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider of the report of the Com mittee of last Session appointed to take into conside ration the high wice of Bullion. On the question being put, Mr. ROSE observed, that there could be but one opinion in the House—that the most convenient way of discussing this important question would be in a Committee of the whole House. He was perfectly aware that when the Hon. and Learned Gentleman took up a question, there were nn means of compelling him to proceed with it; yet, as the report had been so long on the table of the House, he had no hesitation in •saying, that it became the property of the House, and it was competent to any other. Honourable Member to take it up, and found any proposition. As, how ever, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had been Chairman of the Committee, he did not think it right to take the matter out of his hands. It was now nine or ten weeks since the Hon. and Learned Member gave 'notice o; the motion which be proposed to defer still further. This was a subject upon which he felt much impatience, and the public felt much impatience; and it was the more to be regretted that any farther delay should take place, as the Hon. and Learned Gentle man had been repeatedly urged, twice by himself (Mr. Rose), to bring it forward. He thought, how ever, the Hon. Member might bring forward the dis cussion, it not next week, at least in the first week after the recess—at all events, it was to be lamented that as the report had been printed and circulated in August last, the Honourable and Learned Gentle man should have suffered so long a period of the Session to elapse without bringing the matter before the House. Mr. HORNER trusted he should, after what bad fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman, meet the in dulgence of the House in making a few observations, l because nothing could be more to be regretted by him than that the House should feel as the Right Hon. Gentleman did. That Right Hon. Gentleman was mistaken if he supposed that he was not prepared on this night, or any other night, to enter into the discussion. When the Right Hon. Gentleman talked of the delay, he should have remembered that the , Session had not opened for farther causes till the 11th of February, and that it was not till some days after that the Right Honourable Gentleman moved for a collection of papers, which he thought necessary for the discussion, but which to him (Mr. Horner) did i not seem in any way whatever applicable to the ques tion. These papers had not been delivered when he went to the country, and he consequently left orders in the Vote Office that they should be sent to him into tbs country. Some of them he did not receive till isisiurival in town. ffis wish to have them sent to him in the country arose from a desire, though be! found it difficult to conceive how they could be' brought to bear upon the question, to make himself acquainted with all which the Right Honourable - Gentleman might have to make use of in his meats, in in order that lie might be Able ta meet the.dis. - . enssion in a full and candid Mantle. 'the Right Her nonrable Gentleman had said first that he repeatedly, then he said, twice, pressed him to bring forward the discussion. He could not call to mind either instance. An Himourable Friend of his (Sir John Sinclair), indeed, had asked him, in an early part of the Ses sion, when he meant to bring forward the question. and it was probably to that occasion the Right Hon. Gentleman alluded. As to the charge of the Right Hon. Gentleman he mast throw himself upon, not the ' indulgence which upon many occasions he required, but upon the justice of the House, whether it applied to him. Did the Right Hon. Gentleman then, in conceiving that ne hacrany backwardness in bringing forward this disAission, suppose that he or any of those 'Gentlemen - who last Session concurred in the opinions contained in the Bullion Report, had since seen reason to change their opinions ? Did he imagine that any change had since taken place was cal culated to make them abscond from their opinions ? In regard to what had since happened, he must ob serve, that the delay was of importance, inasmuch as the circumstances which had occurred illustrated the opinions previously entertained by him, to which he reluctantly, at first, assented, but in which he entirely concurred with the Committee. With respect to the impatience of the Right Hon. Gentleman, he could not but look upon it with suspicion. When, on the former occasion, the Right Hon. Gentleman was anal- , ous that the discussion should be brought on without delay, he could not but be aware of the change in the price of dollars which had since taken place. He could not help, therefore, looking upon his present impatience as probably arising from an expectation of some such other consequences. Mr. ROSE in explanation seated, that when he moved for the papers, he declared, though he wished to have them, he was ready to go to the discussion Without them. Mr. BARING thought it extremely desirable, that some decision should be come to by the collected wisdom of the House upon this important subject. — He agreed, also, that it was to be wished, that the discussion should come on with as little delay as pos sible. He hoped, however, that his Learned Friend would either on this night or before the recess explain to the House, the nature of the Resolutions which he meant to propose in the Committee. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had been anticipated by the Honourable Gentleman who had just sat down, in the wish he had thrown out as to the explanation of the nature and purport of the resolutions to be proposed by the Honourable Gentleman which it would be convenient far both sides of the House to be possessed of previous to thediscus sion. He regretted the delay which had taken place, for he had the best authority for stating, that the pro. traction of this discussion had a most injurious effect upon the public mind. He was of opinion, that, whatever might be the decision of the House, it was desirable that it should be speedy, because he thought the report itself, and the agitation of this question, had produced a greater degree of public mischief And public calamity than any measure which he ever re membered. The decision of the House, he was of opinion, would be favourable, but at all events the question ought to be set at rest. As the Honourable Gentleman disclaimed any intention to go into the discussion, he should avoid following him into those topics which were touched upon by him, and which were obviously a part of the subject. He agreed that there was some advantage in the delay, as it afforded greater time to collect materials for a correct deci sion ; but there was much mischief derived.from keep ing the public mind in suspence during this interval. He could not, however, concur in the observation, that any thing which had happened tended to con firm the opinions in the report. He agreed with his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Rose,) that this important subject would be much more properly brought for ward in a Committee than in the House; and that if the Honourable and Learned Gentleman could not bring forward the question before the holidays, he could not expect a full attendance of Members earlier than the day he proposed. Mr. TIERNEY agreed, that it would be desirable that his Hon. and Learned Friend should give to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, and to theliouse, an explanation of the substance of the Resolutions he! meant to propose, before he should bring on the dis cussion. With respect to the charge of delay, he thought his Right Honourable Friend had been hard ly used. The Right Honourable Gentleman, (Mr. Rose) in stating that lie was ready to proceed to the discussion before the papers he had moved for were produced, shewed that he was so fond of discussion, that he was ready to enter into it without understan ding the subject. With respect to the mischief said to have been produced by the publication of the Re port, what else, he would ask, could have been ex pected but that the Committee would report their opinions founded on the facts produced to them ? When that Committee was appointed, it was the opinion of the House that they should probe the subject to the bottom. They had done so, and it was no fault of theirs if any mischief resulted from the publication of their report. The Right Honour able Gentleman opposite, (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer) seemed to think that the decision to which that House might come would quiet the public mind : but he was mistaken. All the writers on his side had not been able to put down the report, as was proved by the heavy fire of pamphlets which had been kept up for the last half-year. If it was desired that the discussion should have taken place earlier, why had not Parliament been assembled earlier ?* It was not too much that the discussion should be deferred till after the Recess. The Right Hon. Gentleman agreed to the day, anticipating, no doubt, the glorious triumph of the 29th of April. For himself, lie did not think the decision would be as favourable as the Right Hon. Gentleman supposed. The discussion was important; and whatever way the House may decide, the whole proceeding would be a credit to his • Hon. and Learned Friend, who had taken up the question. The motion was then put and agreed to. BANK OF ENGLAND. - Mr: HUSKISSON observed, that if the principle ' assumed in the Report, that the depreciation of our currency must be tried by the relative value of gold , and silver was just, it was manife,i. :hat a deprecia tion had taken place, and chi: deprrci ition could 'ally arise from an excess in the issees of the Bank. 'rise Directors had, however, dehied the possibility of any excess, because their advances were made only 0:1, good bills or suflcient 'rnetcantile securities. Thli • ~ 9 was the opinion on which those Gentlemen cnnterfled, that there could not be Any excess in the circular - on of their notes, so long AS they adhered to co s i. e el,. • tinn. It was therefore necessary, he conceiv—i, nn. der these circumstances, that the• House should he furnished with an account of the actual amount of The discounts of the Bank, in order fairly to try the just ness of their own ereiciele. It was most imp or t an t that the great p: by which the affairs of such a Corporation as the Bank of England were conducted, should be thoroughly examined. If the history of :ill the Banks of discount of which he had heard, spewed that they had all occasionally carried their disconnts too far, and that this was the great dan ger to which all such establishments were exposed, even when under the obligation of paying in specie, it was surely justifiable in him to assume the poe,ibi lity of the Beak of E•igland having fali-n into the same error, under the circumstances of dirinnished res traint and increased temptation. If this was possible, it became the House to !scertain whether this was or was not the case ? He wished to avoid entering into the general question, and confine itimseit to the Luring a ground for the production of the p per he should move for. It was well lo.own that there had lately been what was termed over-trading, to 4 very great extent, and that among the veriety.of recent c-m -mercial speculations many had failed, and had been attended with much indieidual calamity. It vas get nerally believed, that wetly of those specailati mi., ginated in the new facilities of discount at the Bank. There had been numerous instances of men rising into sudden affluence and splendour, and falling hack into bankruptcy and distress. This was a depar ture from the true character of commerce, and threat ened.alarming consequences. if there was any vi sible or supposed connection, between the state of things and the conduct of the Runk, was not that a ground for inquiry ? Sir Francis Baring, a great practical authority, had said, he had known clerks, whowith salaries of £lOO per annum, were in • h habit of obtaining discounts to the amount of five and even ten thousand pounds. He might quote the late Lord Liverpool, in support of the evil to be derived from the creation of factiti 415 capital; hut he was aware this would be called the language of theorists, of men so 'very wild and speculative as to dream that the re. gumption of payment in cash at the Bank would be a measure of expedience. It might be urged, that the failure of the late commercial speculations was noe thing more than a distemper. But did not such distempers tend to produce exhaustion in the body politic, and was not che drain of naticnal capi tal to be deplored, withdrawn from useful employe ment, and lavished in prodigal and unsucceesful en terprize ? The paper be should move for had been communicated to the Committee by the Governor of the Bank,. under an injunction not to insert it in the Report, and it had been since published in one of the daily vehicles of iptelligence. A. pere son had seen it on the table of a Director, and. had surreptitiously communicated a copy. As it was, ' however, already before the public, he apprehended there would be the less difficulty in consenting to the object of his motion. It had been urged that such a production would be prejudicial to the Bank. This he could not understand ; neither could he believe that it was any interference with their privateconcerns. Could that be called a private concern which went to alter the relative value of every description of pro. perty in all its ramifications ? If he were to propose to inquire into the principles which governed the Bank in their particular discouluta that would be an impro. per interference ; but when he asked only for a scale of the proportion which the whole amount of dis counts at one period bore to the whole amount at another, he did not see what fair objection could be made. Without this paper they would in his opi. nion go aftereall to the discussion - of the great ques tion in the dark. The paper lately presented to the House from the Bank, by no means answered the purpose he had in view. That paper contained nathing more than an account of the sums advanced at different periods by the Bank to Government, on the application of the latter. But it was impossible for the House to discover by this what the whole amount of the Government securities now in the hands of the Bank might be, or what the number of Exchequer Bills which might have been bought by the latter in the market.—( Hear, hear.)—lt was essential to know not only how far they had gene in accom modating individuals, but what limits they had pre• scribed to themselves in accommodating Government. He must disclaim entertaining what he feared had been imputed to him, any spirit of hostility to the Bank, nor could he think that any such spirit was evinced by a mere doubt of their infallibility. The real enemies to the Bank were, he was convinced, those who should advise them them to resist this mo.. tion, or who should attempt to persuade them in the House that power and compulsion could ever supply the place of confidence. The real enemies of the Bank were those who taught them that there was no thing in the present state of paper currency to Merit the interpositiorl of that House, or to require the vi gilance of the Legislature. The !tight Honourable Gentleman then, after recapitulating his arguments, and referring to the amount of individual suffering and extensive distress, created by a growing deprecie ation of the circulating medium, moved, . , That there be laid before the House a Comparative Scale a the Amount of the Discounts of the Bank of England in Jaduary 1790, and in January 1811. Mr. MANNING objected to the Motion, because it was the first appeal to the House to interfere with the Bank for the purpose of procuring a document, He spoke simply as a private individual, and without any authority whatever from the Directors. 'ibis Motion would be most inconvenient, and it was not necessary. The House, since the Restriction Bill, received an annual account of the issues cf the Bank ; and he did not deny that as hung as that Bill continued, Parliament should look upon the Bank, not with a jealous, but a watchtul eye. He denied that the issues of the Bank were pushed for their profits; on thecontrary,they were below the demand. I: mic'.t surprise the Honourable Gen:leman to bear taint say that he perfectty agreed with him, that the resit, of the Bark to c•oh-peyrnetits would be a very des able benefit; but when he cerfewd this, he dills red most completely with him et . L') tee time thet return: Taking into consideration the state • f our ceuntr) at present, together with its imports, etc. to correne..eo that retuto now would be litti. less di in. to tee %i.e . :. ptilitual su cide. tie concludes: by opFos4 tiekznes ■ 1 I