Star. — London, England, 1816-02-28 00:00:00

qtrairj e raist. i k e ",l wa s no , t War. 14. 10 :t, f ne 1;* I Ivt T th e It it con v is frA It 1.601 ih c 9 ,1 1141 di st 'knew, of np e i t ri ) p the ! tax w to the b utt 'here tr,11.1 e. j u dtr el WAS th e • tea .t h t % l i t h e c i opri ft , t whi ch Helms„ of uee.,;.r. DPju.dA7 r W -114 d 71 41 * as . 04 rent * nth Dem.— - '1 iltOpe i t y ti 1 'ent IChi„. ie they is noi r tinily ! " lit were, did tak e t of hit esi re el* de l r it Tao ant 'd Prevent Y the .Iti j that R •oi :ks. Hel 'decided : grace to t sgra te to i It was breach of I and a deo i $4414 a ti as swatlat tat of it. rty wa s sl f that Cc public 113 the oar d:cry/ is(l/ et not mei o be tem opposed Id, triva e;v °vital nAttdi they pro ould inevit. tr.) —WI iged in rophecies , hear.) I which h which, fo alour b. ry tecesiss. :tidy kde. o, who es. le t that the 1 . that hai :h. mottles me circa* sed France ;ht three or vha. praise thit irt* Ileled Dm, pa! r this/rest thertafrese tef fear, hile.) other Pa that, i d e . , the teat ,vet' ?de! I the .0 the Oa Lad d nor th „._ ne of bar. cics ? A. on 4 r the pie *use re Throug plant te 'bah 'Orli and ffear, yeat it wo rl7 ell lanai itarr► :ry 10 a Irtio; - • • • NA i was n a discontented state. • b a d nut derived these benefits which , At cutai to her by Gentlemen opposite, when they called a Union—which hei r - be j and paid for—and which, though a union ak , ffa i poineolview, was not so with reference to %, an d an d feelings of the people. (Near. hear.) p ant e in consequence of this want of liar ores tole governed by the sword ; and though re seJ was not necessary in England, yet the same W as to be st ationed. here. The peeetni ;ons of Ch an cellor of the Exchequer, on which he , the necessity for efforts the country was eto t wee, arose out of circumstances which sin i sters t hemselves chose to create (Hear, hear.) coun try gentlemen of England, who now felt the of those circumstances, which, till this time over believed, would, he busted, assume their situation in the state, and exert themselves in ..of their property, and, what was infinitely ort of the liberties of their country. prdMILTON agreed in many of the sentiments the Honourable Baronet had expressed ; but was one., point in his speech, which, he con . called . for obseryation. The Honmirable , P t expressed a hope, that such a clamour and t w ould be made, as should prevent the Chan. the Exchequer' from renewing the Property He (Lord Milton) wished that such represen. • i hoold be made as would operate against the • nce of the measure, bust not in the Manner to by t he Honourable Baronet. He viewed pre sentations as acting on that Now, and not swo re . He was persuaded, that the Right Genileman (the Chancelloit of the Exchequer), be bad no regard for his own dignity, vr tot unrest: of his country, if he should abandon the ( m ad be thought he would abandon it), would, o , not for fear of clamour out of doors, but for of losing a majority in that House. Because, be c onvinced, it the Right Hon. Gentleman led the people, those who nominally, or virtually them, would support their cause. The Lord then observed, that he had voted•for the y Tax, last Session, because the circumstances the country called for exertions that could not • been effectual without - it. But those circum. canoes having ceased, he noW felt bound to oppose it. re FRANCIS BURDETT said, the Noble Lord put words into Ilis mouth, which he had not " l ade use of. The Nohle Lord said, he had expressed swish that the clamours of the public would prevent Sisters from carrying this measure . He eas in the re c o llection of the H ouse, when he asserted, that belied uttered no such thing. On the contrary, he mainly relied on the landed proprietors, those who sem began to feel the critical situation of the corns indirecting tie public voice against the measure, a d o r n/J elling Ministers to abandon it. He certainly fdt,that the majorities would noi fall off, as long as Moisten thou proper to go on with the tax. Lord MIL TON—" I may have mistaken the words of the Hon. Baronet, but I have not misre piesentedbis meaning. He is of opinion that the re presentations of tl.e people will cause Ministers to Asada' the measure, instead of having their consti tatiol32l erect on the House." Sir FRANCIS BURDETT—I 4 The Noble Lord says, the repreientadons made by the people will ope. rue on the House. I say, they will operate on kers. This is the difference between us, and has oohing to do with tumult or clamour." (Hear.) Lord EBRINGTON .could not believe that the Home would refuse to attend to the feelings of fie people. He thought better of the Members of 'born it was composed thin to believe them capable dutch a course : he knew the majority of them to be adependent country Gentlemen, whose minds were et diverted from the true interests of the eeople, by __ ._ig their thoughts, like those of the Noble Lorii "mite, entirely lamed to ob;.ects of foreign policy.' For his own part, he was resolied to oppose the Bill in I nay stage . ; and trusted that the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite would think better, and see how impedient it was, how unjit.t and unconstitutional lottery sense, to harry through the House a measure if inch importance. Mr. PRESTON said he wiiped, if it were possible, b route the Right Hononrable Gentleman (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer) to action, that be might see dims in a true light, and that if he would only at .he would read him a history of the distresses of the MnKry.—( Laughter.) He saw that the Right Rommble Gentians) smiled, because he had his okilitai around him.—(Laugher.) It was a mistake to say slut Le (Mr. Preston) thought that the dis neWss tithe country were occasioned by its resources helsg impaired : he did not think that the resources °NU country were impaired, but he thought that the present distresses were occasioned by our having a tinnshic, miscalculating, puny Chancellor of the 6 ,_eticc—(Cree ; of Order! and loneder,) who did Pt 41 11 OW the res.mram of the counts y, owing to the roa n . ce and want of power of his little mind.— "ell of ! s a d Quesfiox !)--The Hon. Gentle. innlhosing gore on for some time longer in the same illri, was so effectually interrupted by coughing and 54 Eicisthequestion, that he was obliged to sit down. 2 14 ROBERT GORDON only trespassed upon f dole of the H ous e f or a few moments, to say a nnerds as to what had fallen from the Chancellor "°' Exchequer, as to the omission of the words, ,`, cod uo longer," Which were stated to have been d wthe Committee on the Bill. Having e ked into the Committe e bo o ks, be found no vestige any omission of these words, or of any such pro. Pot _having been at ail made; and although Le hail fall attended the Committee, he had no recollec tthat there b a d b een an y ques tion about those ti • ds' He found, however, that in another Cum-, tailm ....""It upon the Bank Restricti in Act — these i /' " and no longer,"' had been omitted, after a PI:1)0W for then: iavertien. It was therefore probable that the Ri g h t H on. r im Bi ll f Gent. had mistaken the Property Or the Bank Restriction Bid, wheu he had wee Wked of the express omission of these words ; though 'pi ck c . l ' be must say, there was something like a little In what the Ri g h t H on . Gentleman-had to-night vos....upon this subject. 1:110 CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER dew 4 P l4 _ Loud. Mire he WA S re that there were many Gen en in the House who were plebe" when the dis *aiou Look piece in the Cnintnittee, about the omis "ir Of the word., " and no longer," in the former . till' Tax Bill. ''° l localism that the Petition be brought up, waa . . •.. '&4l pin and 'carried,' The Petfigen bring hvoisghti ,up, on the question that it 'tumid betted being 'put, Mr. MADDOCKS obseried, that as to what had been urged .during the debate, that the object of Gentlemen who were along with him an the Opposi tion side of the House, was merely a 'studied protrac tion of time in going through the measure : it there was any blame at all on this pOint, it was to be im puted to*those who had used .a studied protraction by putting off the meeting of Parliament till so un usually late a period. Mr. W. WYNNE did not wish to put off the im portant debate that stood for the ptesent evening, but he felt himself called on to express his regret, that the Chancellor of the Etchequer still determined to bring forward the Property Tax, against which such a number of Petitions had been directed, so eatly as Friday next. After what had been stated yesterday, that numbers of meetings on this subject. would be held, in the course of this week, it appeared to him that the Right Honourable Gentleman ought not to adopt a course which indicated a desire to shut 'the 'ears of the House against the sentiments of the coun try. The Right Honourable Genteman asked, 04 Have not the people had sulficieet time ? I stated the proposed military establishment, A fortnight ago." The fact, however, was. that those meetings were fixed for the present week, proved that the people could not be ready before. The new Sheriffs having recently taken their situations—the country papers being, in general, published only once a 'week—'-and several other circumstances, rendered it difficult to convene the Meetings earlier. The Hunourahle Gen tleman then defended the propriety, in a case like thi present, when Ministersseemed determined to 'mei. pitate a measure of great importance, of making use of clime powers which the Constitution had ves.ed in every Member of the House, to procure the necessary delay. He lamented the tone and tempei which Mi. 1 nisters displayed in their observations i n the country. Instead of conciliating the people, their language was calculated to wound and irritate. A Noble Secre tary of State talked of an ignorant impatience of taxation—The Chancellor of the Exchequer spoke of exaggerated distresses—and die Secretary at War had tauntingly observed' that Gentlemen were in an "<, economical mood." At no time was economy more necessary, and yet no Administration ever ap peared so unwilling to adopt the principle. Lan• gunge, such as he had repeated, ought to be avdi ded, since it tended to destroy the confidence that ought to exist between the people and their Repre *coati yes. Mr. ROSE said, the present discussion on the In come Tax was premature, since, until the House was apprized of the necessities of the country, they could not tell what they ought to provide tor. The Rig ht HOn. Gentleman then eulogised the Property ax, as the most eff:ci na! that could by devised; and.ob served, that if it were taken off, and the proposed establishment were voted, his Right Hon. Friend would be obliged to propose other Taxes, that would bear more heavily on the people. In conclusion he recommended the calm and deliberate consideration of the measure. Mr. PONS'JNBY•-•`" I am sure I am disposed to take the advice of the Right Honourable Geraleman. and I would to Goo his speech was as persuasive amongst his own friends, as it is with respect to nee. 1 am not willing to consider this .subject precipitately —but so is not the Chancellor of the Exchequer— (Hear, hear). —He would not give a day's delay to the people on this question. Friday next is the day be has appointed for voting this obnoxious tax,. if he can induce the House to do it. This is what he calls patient deliberation. I should be glad to know flow I soon after the vote are the people to make their repre sentations?-.-(Near, h:ar).—ls this what the Right Hon. Gentleman ( Mi. hose) calls considering the question patiently ? It is, iu tact, considering it ludi ' crously. It is not a patient deliberation, but a delu- I sort' shew of investigation, which can have no effect. The object of the Right Hon. Gentleman's speech, As it appears to me, is to terrify the people from raising their voice against this measure...—. 0, says 'he, i my Right Hon. Friend is a more ingenious man than you think. The speeches you hear him make on the floor, are not remarkable for vigour ; but try hint as a tax.projector, and you will find that be can far exceed all those who preceded him.' The doc trine of the Right Hon. Gentleman is this, if the pub lic differ from the Minister, on a point of taxation, the litter, as a punishment, ought to inflict on then burdens mote onerous than those froM which they had escaped. The Right Hon. Gentleman would censure such a doctem, if supported by another, and, on reflection, he must condemn it in himselt." Mr. ROSE explained, Mr. BROUGHAM. convinced of the propriety, in a Parliamentary point of view, of pursuing the course of which he had given notice early in the everting, expressed his determination to adhere to it. ... Mr. H. ADDINGTON defended the Chancellor of the Exchequer from the charge of wishing to pre cipitate the measure that had occasioned so much discussion. His. Right Hon. Friend had, on the very first day of the Session, stated his inteution of pro posing its renewal. He denied that his Right Hon. Friend had pledged himself not to propose that re newal. With respect to the expression of ‘4 ignorant impatience," which had been attributed to Lord Castlereagh, he observed, that neither he nor any in. dividual on that side of the House, had heard his Lordship make use of it—(hear, hear). —He believed the expression was not used at all; certainly not in the sense the Hon. Gentlemen opposite attached to it. Mr. FREEMANTLE observed, that the Chan. cellor of the Exchequer had not been accused of a' wish to precipitate the measure, until after he had refused to postpone its consideration beyond Friday next; and it should be recollected, that there was a precedent for-such a delay, since the last Property Tax Act was not passed till the month of August. lie telt justified in charging his Majesty's Ministers with intending to stifle the voice of the people, by urging this measure with the most indecent precipi. Imp As to the fact of there being any idea of making the measure a permanent one, on its intro duction last year, he would appeal to the recollection of any man iii the House. whether such was the feel ing of the country upon Oat occasion. On the con trary, was it not most explicitly laid down as a War ties? Had it been otherwise, he (Mr. Freers tale), would not have supported the system then pursura by his Majest)'s Government. lie repeated. that he would take the sense 0/ Parliament di to the coo • ftiielinii of this eontrace, in preform err to any doff , flip` owlaning of the words which composed the Act itself. He 'mild not believe that the Right FiOnourable Gentleman : opposite (the Chancell , :r of the Exchequer) would condescend to rest NS defence on verbal quibMilg. That Right Hon. Gentleman knew, as well as he did, that the tax was introduced by the new danger which arose, and that it was not meant to survive the cause which called it forth. (Ifethi.) If, indeed, lie felt it was necessary in time of peace, why not have spoken out? Did :My individtial of the majority which then voted with the Minister, imagine that hp WAS con curring in a peace tax ? (Hear, hear.) He was per- suaded no Member would hazard such All assertion. (Hear).—Ttle Right Honourable Gentleman who spoke last, denied that his Noble Colleague (Lord. Castlereagh), had, at least in his hearing, charged the people of England with holding 4 , an ignorant impotence fer a, relaxation of taxes." The Right Honourable Gentleman. in disavowing that he had heard such an observation, did not, however, pre sume to sat that it had not been made use of by the Noble Lord. " But," continued Mr. Freer:l4We, 4. I will call on the colleagues of the Noble Secre tary, to deny the fact of his having made such an Assertion. 1 declare, on my honour, that I heard the words, and shall maintain the declaration to the latest moment of my life." It was not - a hasty in digested expression, but a cool, premeditated phrase, considered and matured by reflection, and used as a taunt to the Opposition side of the House, who were of course, in their turn, entitled to charge him with i wanton expression.—(Hear, hear.)—lt was said by a Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Rose), that the discussion into which they had gone was quite premature. What I wete the people, when they im plored the House by petition, to be told by the oldest and most experienced Member in the practice of Par liament, that they should delay their complaints until the Act, to which they were directed, had received the sanction of Parliament—(hear)—and then be told Oh, it is too late to take the prayer of your peti tion into consideration, for we have passed the Bill?" —(Heir, aid lavirer.)—That Right Hon. Member had also said, the country had but a choice of diffi culties—for the peace establishment must be main tained, and there was no fitter means of upholding it than the Property Tax.—[Mr. Rose here, across the table, denied that he had enforced such a position.] Mr. Freemantle repeated, that the Right Hon. Gen tleman's argument either went thus far, or nothing ; for he affirmed that if the means required were not forthcoming to meet the peace expenditure, they must be drawn from the public by another, and perhaps a more grievous system of taxation.—(Hear, hear.) — This was a happy tone of conciliation for the country to receive after its extraordinary and patriotic exer tions in the late arduous contest. This was the grate ful return for its unexampled firmness and suffering : that is, that during profound peace, the people should have to pay 070,000,000 in taxes, an amount only 06,000,000 short of the most expensive war ex penditure during the previous period. The Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Rose) bad stated, that Mr. Pitt uniformly deplored the peace establishment to which he had submitted in the year 1793. Now he (Mr. Freemantle) had heard from persons who were equally acquainted with Mr. Pitt, that he always looked with pleasure and satisfaction to that period of his public life, and that it was only in the year 1793 (though the establishment subsisted since 1786), the last year of the peace, and when it was unexpec tedly interrupted by the French declaration of war, that in a moment of sudden difficulty Mr. Pitt was said to have lamented the casual occurrence, but not to disclaim the high principle of his economical ar rangement. It wat singular that when the Right Honourable Gentleman described- the present peace establishment as the most economical which he had seen, he should have overlooked the former peace estimate of Mr. Pitt, to which he had been a party. The Honourable Gentleman concluded, by declaring that, on the present occasion, the people were bound to put every difficulty in the way of the progress of this question, and that no man ought to be called factious who interposed to defeat this precipitancy. Mr. ROSE explained. Lord BINNING observed, that the Honourable Gentlemen opposite were so much practised in the' trade of casting imputations, that the principles and conduct which they now unfolded were by no means novels be would not, therefore, appeal to their can-, dour when he addressed them. The Hon. Member had taxed the recollection of the House to admit that a pledge was last year given that the Income Tax was not to be renewed after the war. Now he (Lord binning) . had no recollection of such a pledge; en die contrary, there were those who thought the tem porary continuance of the Tax a wise and right mea sure. As to the charge of stifling the public voice, that was the old accusation. How had. the Chancel lor of the Exchequer deserved it ? A mouth had already passed since he had given an intimation of his intention ; and he only meant on Friday to intro duce a Resolution in the Ways and Means upoa the subject. From the avowed determination of Gentle men oppositO, who meant to use every means of pro tracting the consideration; it was evident that the. public, so far from being hurried into the question, would have an opportunity of discussing it ten times over, while it would be pending in that House. -It was also a little hard that Gentlemen at his side of House would not be allowed the opportunity of ex plaining their own meaning. His Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Rose) had been completely misrepresen; ted in the observations which he had made. Mr. WYNNE, in explanation, observed, that the Noble Lord, when he talked of the opportunity which the people would have of discussing this subject, seemed to have overlooked the fact, that when a re solution once passed the Committee, it was contrary to the rules of Parliament to receive a petition against it —(Near.)—All the proceedings of their constitu ents in the country, which were known to be in a state of active forwardness, would therefore arrive too late, if the present intention of Ministers was persevered in. Lord BINNING explained. Mr. BARING observed, that the Right Honour able Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer) had expressed `his intention to enter fully upt.ai the subject, and all he (Mr. Baring) wanted, was, that the counts y should have 'the same advan tage—(Near).—The Right Honourable Gentleman o i tposite had midi . that if we voted this peace este- blistinstet. vtr Mast hare money forks support—a' d yet.. on the aameobreath. he cuntende.i, taat t' e was nu conoection betwi-eu the coosideration oft e present Estimates sad the Property Tax.—(Aoir)— ; Suppose even diet the necessity of this establishment were made out, it would not follow that the Property Tax would he the proper way of upholding it. But, at all events, what inconvenience cauld arise from a delay of a few days, to allow the country petiti .ns to be sent up. The tax ws an annuli one, and in the short interval of a limited postponement, it was ion. possible the revenue could be affected. Oqe reesou for the progressive discussion of this important ques tion was. dial information hid daily grown nut of mode.of proceeding. We were, for instanctodlret told this day, that in the law Act the words a sad no longer" were not to be found, and that it was only meant to propose the continuance of the tax f.w two years, although it was ischnitted to be a sort of contin gent relationship to other events ; that is, the tint proposition was a sort of entering wedge to pave the way for a future measure. (Hear, isa, It was useless to talk of the public feeling being exag gerated, when the whole voice of the country was raised against the tax—when the agricultural interest proclaimed its oppression —when the commercial in terest was equally obnoxious to it—and• when per. sous exercising .trades and professions, loudly pro. tested against the inquisition which it bad establish. ed.—lf Ministers were competent to explain away any of the odious appendages of this Act. why not refer its provisions to a Committee ? They would then see, from a view of its operation, what had been its grievous and baneful appendages. After severely animadverting on the burden of the Property Till, he repeated that there was no pretext furhurry in this ques tion, and.concluded by denying the existence of that in creased wealth of which the country was said to be pos sessed. If Ministers had taken but a short tour iir the country, they would have had an opportunity of unde ceiving themselves on this point. He was Afraid, however, that their journies were confined to occa sional trips to Brighton, from which place they doubtless returned full of those ideas of of lueuce and luxury which engendered the general mass of na tional wealth which was scattered through their speeches—(hear, and laughter.) Mr. WALLACE admitted, that if a resolution were passed, Petitions could not be subsequently re ceived ; but there were other ways open to the Peti tioners, by whish they could produce the same con stitutional effect. Advertising and giving publicity to those meetings, together .with the otoer means which were open of communicating with their Re. presentatives, would answer an equ el purpose. He took this opportunity of stating, that he recollected no such pledge of his Right Hon. Friend (the Chen. cellor of the Exchequer), as that which hod been alluded to. It was evident, that if the Preperty Tex' WAS abandoned. another, and probably a 11101 C op pressive one, would be substituted in its place. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH maintained. that all the arguments used to show that the Pe..ce Esta blishment mil the Property Tax were quite distinct topics. only served • to establish the closer identity between both. It was now plainly hinted, that we must have the Income Tax, or worse. The Right Hon. Gentleman ( Mr. Rose) had paid a tribute to the spirit Of the people, but his sole aim was, that this spirit should be withheld until it could be wholilt unavailing. We may, indeed. sometimes refuse to abide by the wishes of the people, but he never beard that we should refuse to inquire into their opinions. Bat all the Right Honourable Gen tleman wanted was, that Parliament should stand pledged to the question.—[[here Mr Rose denied that he had such an object in view.] —Then see what language he has introduced. The whole of the country is in motion, and the . petitions may he ex pected in seven or eight drys —in this state of thiags the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes a reso lution for next Friday, and thereby excludes the constitutional expression, of pebliu feeling.—(hear ) After that time. no means which the petitioners could devise would be operative. for then the House might possibly stand pledged to the principle of the Bill ; and yet the people were told that no attempt was made to stifle their voice, or suppress their Con stitutional privileges ! The will of the Minister seemed every thing in such a system. Sir James then alluded to the strange circumstance that none of the Gentlemen opposite had heard the Noble Secre. tary's contemptuous expression of the popular anxiety for a relaxation of taxes. He (Sir James) bad often heard that Members were 'obliged to resign their op!. aims to Ministers on certain occasions, but this was • the first time he had ever observed an official deaf. nest among the Gentlemen of the Treasury Bench, or that he understood the duties of official allegiance required, in addition to their other sacrifices, the fur. render of their external senses. Mr. PRESTON explained. The petition was that brought up, read, and ordered to lie on the table. Altilif KITIMAT/CS. Lord PALMBILSTON moved the Order of the Day for resuming the debate of yesterday ; and on the question being put from the Chair, Mr. J. P. GRANT considered the present question as one of the greatest importance which could pos. ably come before the House. Gentlemen were now called on to vote that, which, if agreed to, would be to give their' sanction to an attempt to introduce a Military Government into this country in the place of our present Constitution. He, for one, could never agree so such a vote. The Noble Lord had said, we should want so mate/ men in one place, and so many in another. The Noble Lord might say so; but he (Mr. Grant) would hear no man on such a subject—(alaue)—Hon. and Right Hon. Gentlemen might laugh; but he would never heat ao t isia.i who should argue that there was a necessity for our maintaining a.Standing Army, during a tone of pro found Peace, of 150,000 men.—(Hear.)._-Tnere never had been, on any former occasion, a Peace Ehtablishrrient of more thao 50,000 men; and he c ..uld not look without alarm at an attempt to crease it threefold. He hail the greatest conli, , •:e, and the highest opinion of the honour of the officers who commanded this army; but he could not con. sent to put the liberties of the country in the power of any class of melt or Ministers whatever. It votes now asked were agreed to, it would form a precedent for keeping up such an armed force as would render the Crown independent ut soy co.urul e aud the House ~t Commons might, at no very diee cant period, find itself the Repeeseasestve 11.4 et a . :-