Star. — London, England, 1816-04-06 00:00:00

Earl BATHURST felt no disposition to withhold from the Noble Marquis, or from the House, the documents desired, though he could not help observ. ing. that they appeared to him to be quite unneces sary and superfluous., The Marquis WELLESLEY was hide inclined to drat la censure on the present occasion, or to arraign the conduct cf the Noble East opposite (Liverpool), of whose political integrity he enter tained no doubt. l'he constitutional principle un doubtedly was, that in time sf peace the smallest military establishment possible should be maintained, although in time of war and danger • a military and extended measure of the military was necessary:- -The rate of the Military Establishment, as it had been framed, was liable to revision, and certainly *tight to be reconsidered with all the wisdom, gravity, aid acuteness of their Lordships. But the measures to be resorted to ought co be full and effectual, they ought not to be confined to the reduction or the cor rection of one part or of another; they ought not, • while they preserved one 'part neglect another, still less make an unfair or disadvantageous difference. He did not speak or feel with any hostility to Govern. mete, but for the common good and general benefit, he would urge and importune the House and his Me, jesty's Government to attend to a close, strict, ra tional, and necessary economy. It became Ministers to take due notice of the feelings and spirit of the people, that spirit had been scmetimes termed a spirit .of resistance. He was not nice about terms. The spirit of Englishmen he liked, and that spirit was not more admirable or estimable in war than it was in peace. The pride, the military pride and glory Of England was eminent and fully acknowledged, bbt it was in peace more particularly that the Ea rah character shone forth. Look (said the WM. Marquis) at the ardour, zeal, and spirit with which, from one end of Great Britain to the other, the people rose to resist and repel national dan ger ; and when that danger was resisted and effec tually repelled, behold them turning with calm and philosophic composure to the consideration of their resources, and the means of again standing foal), she old occasion requite it, to combat their toes.— But laving gained the great object for what the Iwo. ple of Great Britain fought—having achieved a peace, that dear and" long-wished-tor object,• they na turedy look to find a suitable reduction in the.public eipenditare. The people particularly looked with a steady eye to the military establishment, and they eepected a reduction suited to the occasion. Above all the rest, they looked to the reduction of the num ber of the military force. That reduction ought to be Widely, generally, and unixersally extended. It should be carried from home to our Colonies—to Malta, Gibraltar, the Cape* of Good Hope, and thaoughout odr foreign establishments. Allusion bad been made" to Mr. Pitt and to Mr. Burke. Mr. Pitt bad been said to have erred' in his military esta blishment, but. bow bad the error been proved ? That• able Statesman addressed the means within his pow'r to the most effectual purposes. Under lea guidance the energies of the country bad been exerted to . their utmost extent, and the first three or - four years which were referred to of his Admi hittration had been marked by naval triumphs and stogies, whkft bad never at any period of the Bri tish oonals . bean surpassed by victories or . exploits toss& 'Lb. army in nonce, and that - in lee bad. , vga i we to be considered as in a constitutional pains* gib. vadet - ifisiausiespeciAlly the Litter,' , . - Pis Majesty's Government, in a case of such extraor- Ainary outrage as that which had been brought for ward, to produce the orders upon which the military had acted. • The Earl of LIVERPOOL repeated what he had 'before and often decbtred, that the military power , was on all civil occasions to be subservient to the 'civil power and authority. Earl GREY had seen a growing disposition on 'the pert of Government to curtail the privileges of the people, and to eitend the power of the military. AMENDER MILITARY ESTIMATES. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE called the atten. tion of the House to the.subject of. which he had v'sen the regular notice; he could not more effec t:if* iinpress it on their Lordships' minds than by *retelling them to the various and multiplied Petitions . which thronged upon and loaded the table of their 4,ord:hips' House. All those Papers and all those Petitions, coming as they did from various and often adverse quarters, yet all united in calling on their Lordships and on the Legislature, in the strongest and most energetic language, for the adoption of system of general and useful economy, which world ultimately enable the countrytt . sustain the burdens under which she laboured, Oil 3 / 4 11dmattly qualify 'her for entering on any new enseitgency that might occur. What he desired was, z general relief for a general distress, and that, he conceived, conld only he effected by a reduction of the pirbiic expenditure. While 14.0 millions of public debt was in the con templation of their Lordships, some effectual Neff sures, no doubt, they would perceive ought,t(be taken for the payment or reduction of that enormous sum. Some steps, indeed, had been taken ; 278 thousand pounds had been saved o —and that step. howsoever feeble and inadequate, was yet a token of what might be dime. Economy had been urged, -indeed, and not without some effect; bu: it ought to be followed up with spirit, or the laudable intention would be useless. Some savings in public expense, some reduction of salaries had taken place, but all would be inefficient and fruitless, unless a vigorous and determined spirit of economy were adopted and ' 'enforced in every department of the public Admitii- 1 striation. Great abuses, gross and notorious abuses prevailed in every quarter of the military establish ment. Those abuses were, perhaps, more strongly prevalent in Ireland than elsewhere. In Ireland there were two Muster Master-Generals, who really had no duty to perform, while other officers of active duty wet superseded or unemployed. A similar abate pervaded the whole system. He was truly glad to perceive a disposition in his Majesty's Mini ster:sir) listen to the public voice in favour of econo my, and he hoped that a system of retrenchment would consistently be adopted and persevered in.— The Noble Marquis concludei by moving— " That an humble Addresi be presented to his Royal HiAhness the Prince Regent, requesting that he would be pleased to order that an Account be laid before the House of the amended Military Estimates," &c. ; • 'which *as . enipioyeetio sup(nteliding the ableglimil of one gener a tion, and the espotion a th e Wm He mentioned these circnosstenees, with a view of calling the. attentirin of the Noble Earl to retrench ment. even on the general principles be had Lad down himself. 'The Noble Earl, he believed. did . not suffer himself to advert to the real want( and distresses of the people, echoed from an quarters of , the kingdom, or he would feel the f3ree of the lines of the great Poet—. - 0 yet a nobler task awaits thy band, (For what can war but endless war still breed ?) Tdi truth and right from violence be freed, And public faith cleared from the shameful brand Of public fraud. In vale doth valour bleed, While avarice and repine share the bad! To reuse the feelings of our injured country, by per severance in unjust oppression, was indeed dangerous, but much more injurious would it be to debase and crush the generous spirit of the English nation by the weight of military despotism I both these extremities were to be avoided, and he conjured the Noble Earl reconsider the enormous estimates proposed, to' :educe the military system within due bounds, to Arise to tar the industry of the severely distressed, land the result would be—fresh resources and a con tented people. (Hear, hear.) The Earl of LIVERPOOL had not expected this statement of opinion. on a motion to which be had intimated his intention to offer no opposition. At the same time, he did not mean to say that the pro ceeding of the Noble Marquis who spoke last was unparliamentary. The Noble Marquis was right in saying. that the amount of our force was the great question, and to that he had turned his attention, I conceiving it his duty to leave minor points out of the question. But the great fallacy of the Noble Marquis's argument was, that he forgot to state this to be the first year of peace, when it was impossible to make the reduction immediately. We were dot in the situation of a country reduced to a peace esta blishment, but one reducing itself to that state. He chewed, that the peace establishment, as it now stood, was not larger in proportion than that of 1793. In India, he contended, that no reduction could imme. diately take place so soon after we had got out of a war in that country. He was as favourable to eto• nomy as any man, but he would not consent to nom promise the safety of the country to any views of economy. Marquis WELLESLEY explained. The Earl of ROSSLYN contended, that we bad no reason to fear any thing trout the European Powers who bad been obliged to reduce their armies. which they had :stewed up to the highest possible pitch during the war. He wished to know why no money was to be asked for the army in France, when there would be a sum chargeable in this country of 5C260,000 over and above the contribution to be paid by France for the present year ? When these things were not stated, Ministers could not be surprised if Parliament and the country were dissatisfied with those Estimates. The Eal of LIVERPOOL stated, that the army in France was deducted from the army here, because it was to be paid there. But it bad been stated, that that army was to be provided for by this country, because it was not improbable, but that France would be unable to come forward with her contribution for this year. Lord GRENVILLE hoped he had omitted no opportunity to oppose this lavish expense, shish the coiner,' could not bear; and that expense too kept up merely to make this a military nation; which , was totally inconsistent with a free Constitution: Were they to launch into this enormous expenditure at a time when sixteen millions had been taken from the revenue, which mobs be supplied by the dangerous experiment of resorting to loans in time of peace, for no other purpose than that of changing this country Isom a free and commercial State to a military des potism f He contended, that there was neither dan , ger to be apprehende.: at home, nor abroad in our Co. look's. He was therefore convinced, that in Great Britain especially, and even in the Colonies, a reduc tion of one-third might be made ; and it was the duty of hliuisters to make it. The present expense of the Army, Ordinariel and Estraordinaries, were nine rstllions; and, it that Army were reduced from 99,000 men to 66,000, het.saw no reason why the ex pease of it should not be reduced to six millions. The motion was then agreed to assn. 114. FACYCH CONTRIBUTION& The Marquis of LANSDOWNE now rose, to move for a return of all sums received by his Majes ty's Government from France; with their dates, and the application thereof. Lord HOLLAND could scarcely credit, that his Majesty's Government had received any sums of money from a foreign' country for the payment of the King's troops, without communicating the cir cuz:rce to Parliament. LIVERPOOL said, that. the money which bad been received amounted to £BOO,OOO, was part of the contributions undertaken to be paid by the French Government, previous to the 'Definitive Treaty, in consequence of the troops abstaining hem raising those sums which their success would have warranted. Lard GRENVILLE protestea, in strong terms, against the conduct of his Majesty's Ministers, in thus receiving a sum from a foreign Power without com municating it to Parliament, until it was elicited, as it were, by accident. Lord HOLLAND repeated, that he thought the course pursued by his M..jesty's Ministers, in this re spect, was criminal in the last degree. and thought the Noble Earl ought to come down the next night with a Bill of indemnity in his hand, in order to save himself from the consequence& of his misconduct. Loud LIVERPOOL. expliined, and said,. that payment of the contributions was a thing perfectly understood. Part was paid to the army, and the rest, remained in the silitary chest. The papers, when produced,' would explain the whole transaction. Lord LAUDERDALE expressed his surprise,' that the first Minister of the country could come down and make such a confession M this, namely, that be bad received money of, a foreign Power for .the payment of British troops, without first taking the sense of Pa rliament upon OA subject. Nothing could be.more hostile t 6 every principled the Con Windom Earl GREY said, he cools' not starer she present discussion to close without exerts the Pentimtats of indignatina, spd nstonifLuneist With ke, Wee overpowered. He ( fid out • mfa ii to some, . - - . Ear' of paelibeesteintention to itsetsTee . 1 ri'llisliih.Yarmy F *lth rabce, resPe Xt . t c e erta the in s l u y p t P h n e t eff o e f et tli 'of hi s eErl declarations upset .that subjeit had been to deceive it, in the most decided manner. Until that night, it was nniversallybelieved that the charge for main. taining that army would be covered wholly and ex clusively by the amount of contributions to. be paid by the French . Government ; but when his Noble Friend,. with that acuteness which distinguished him upon aU questions of that kind, &hewed that in the present ye& we should in' fact have to pay above 4200,000, and in the nest year nearly selBo,ooo, then, and cwt till then, the Noble Lord bad admitted the fact, because he could not disprove it. With respect to what had been the conduct of . the Noble Earl 4n ap propriating the £BOO,OOO already received, without making any commuoication to Parliament upon the subject, he did not wish to-use any harsh or intempe rate expresiion, but be would venture to say, that it was an act of delinquency on the part of that Noble Earl, which in the better times of our history would have been followed by an act of punishment —( Hear , hear.) As had been well observed by his Noble Friend who spoke last, if the principle were once ad mitted, that a British Minister might receive and ap ply such a sum at his own pleasure and discretion, where would the practice stop f or why might not a larger' sum, as many millions, for instance, be recei. red end used in the same unconstitutional manner ? (Hear, hear, hear.) The Noble Lord (Lord Liver pool) had said this sum was not obtained in conse quence of the Treaty, or of any Convention, but was paid as part of a contribution into the military chest of this country, prior to the conclusion of the, Treaties. The Treaties, it was well known were finally rati fi ed on or before the 20th day of Novem ber, prior to which, according to the Noble Lord's own account, the money had been obtained, and Par liament bad. been convened on the lst of February, Yet on this day, the sth of April, their Lordships had for the first time heard of such a sum being procured. (Hear, hear, hear 1). And how had they been infor. medal it ? Not by any wish of the Noble Lord to give them information, but solely through accident, in consequence of the vigilance of his Noble Friend (Lard Grenville). Na disposition appeared to exist in sae minds of Ministers to give any account of this sum to Parliament. It was to remain locked up ; not in the view of defraying the expeges to which the country had already been put, not with theintert. don of in the smallest degree alleviating the pressure under which the country groaned, but it was to re main there prospectively, to gratify the inclinations of Ministers in future. He put it to their Lordships, whether such conduct was consistent with the high responsibility which Ministers owed to Parliament ? Was it either congenial to the principles of the Con. stitution, or to the respect which Ministers should naturaliy feel' for Parliament ? Such an iniquitous transaction could not be too severely reprobated : it was a departure from the line of duty which Minis ters owed to the country—it was a contempt for the dignity and authority of Parliament. He certainly thought it impossible for Parliament to shut their eyes on such conduct ; and if they did not censure and punish those who had been concerned in it. they ought at least to guard the public against the daring impositions of such men in future. The motion was then agreed to without a division. BANK LOAN BILL. On the third reading of the Bank Loan Bill, Lord GRENVILLE censured the bargain made with the Bank. It was contrary to justice, that the public should pay for the loan of their own money, while the Bank Company held in their bands such immense balances, and derived such important ad vantages from the issue of their notes. He eulogized the able speech which had been been made by an Hon. Friend of his in the other House on this inte resting subject. If his Hon. Friend had not carried the motion which he had.made, his exertions were not useleis, as they bad' served to open the eyes of the public, and would eventually lead to the attain ment of the object in view. The Fad of LIV.ERIDOOL olered the same ex plauatioa of the arrangement made with the Bank as was recently given in the other House. He main tained nothing more bad been done by the Govern ment in favour of the Bank, than they had been bound to do by justice and good faith. The Marquis of LANSDOWN commented on .the bargain recently concluded under the advantages gained by the Bank from the paper system.. It the unrestricted issue of their notes were to be continued, the advantages which lie had referred to, ought to be secured for the public, as they were compelled to en doe all inconveniences *rising from the system. A new sera had arrived, and is was necessary to come to a distinct understanding that if the privileges now enjoyed by the Bank .were continued, the public ought to have an equivalent on fair commercial terms. He concurred with the measure as it now stood, but only concurred with it in the hope that the subject would, on a future occasion, receive the most serious consideration. The Earl of LAUDERDALE asked what the world would think of a Nobleman who having nine thousand pounds in the hands of his steward, should borrow 113000 of it, and pay interest for the loan of his own money ? Such conduct would appear ab- surd, yet this was preciely what Government were doing by the Bank. When all the advantages were considered, which the Ban is at present enjoyed, would any man tell him that a Corporation so situated would refuse to the public, if the dematid were made, six instead of three millions of their own money, nut only on lower interest, but without paying any inte rest at all ? The Bill was then read a third time s and passed. Adjourned at Twelve. HOUSE OF COMMONS. An amino of the quantity of Copper imported sad exported in tots, was laid en thelable. Mr. MAIRILYA VT pretested i Petition from the Tamtzrs of the town of Sandwich egainst the Leather Tex.—Laid on the Table Gems/ OASCOYNE presented a Petition from the Tanners of against the Leather 1 as.—Laid on the Table. Lord ELMLEY , presented a Petition from the Tanner, of Worcester edema the Leather Tex.—Laid on-the Table. The Dotter Duty lin went ;Isrongh a Committee.—dtepert on Monday. The Meese Dsty Xll weld into a Committee. Mr. ROBINSON proposed a &Mei of Ws. ed. on Foreign Chew, Imported in latish Vessels; end ans. on Cheese Imported vearl?. Eft M. W.V.IDLEY considered those &dee toe high, and propound Gs. and 108.1 n their 64 A. Its thouabt that a. Cheese Sete to neat% cif much contempt/no amongst the pole, ixt k should not be raked too high. Mr. ROBINSON thought that the Duties on Chen* hear a proportion to the duty on Butter, and he did not lower duties than tildir be proposed would do so. Sir M. W.RIDI A EY explained Sir f. ACLA ND anti General GASCOTNE .pain wor is, one in support of the original 1110ii911, a n d t h e the amen imenr. ' they increaseal the pric e on the 1 auren of Caesa r to girowo Mr. CALCRAFT argued that the dot es othlinany would not higher wenaia to r o b: .e bightthe Mo K Sir CHA RI.ES BURRELL considered the dirties no t bi ght thud the circurnstancis of the country required. After some conversation, in which hlr..ll o bi neee. mr. ~... panic 'pared, the amendm ent was negatived_ tent, Mr. Marryatt, Mr. Gordon, Gen era l Ga woyee, 414 John the Ro ar , s had, Newportead, anl pA r was ordered to be brought up to-morrow. The Bill went through a Committee morrow. --' and ordered to be taken into farther considerattoeVs the eT day three wt eks. . Mr. LUSHINGTON brought up a certain account to . the Leeward Islands. Mr. BENNE r presented a Petition from the County o f g ei In favour of the Insolvent Debtors' Act, and representing:: great caution should be used before a practi ce was recu rre d : „- r ; which militated so strongly with humanity, lib erty, the cowtit.- tion, and every maxim of discriminativ e j ust i ce, and mot w''7 left to the discretion of disappointed avarice, of -I pried, and of vindictive ntaligulty. P — r ur. " -- roidta. The Annual Indemnity Bill was read a first and second tat . and ordered to be committed on Monday. , The Princess Charlotte of Wales's Settlement B t u was s ayfirst and second vane, and ordered to be comm i tted oe A g ;;;; a REPAIRS OF THE SECRETARY OF STAT E ' S PARLIANENTITHEET. oFnc s z long go i ng on i n P ar li ament•street as the Mr. BANKES complained of the repairs ih ilthad been so house of one of the Secretaries of State, and wished to know by what orders they were carried on? Mr. HILEY ADDINGI'ON, when he fiat saw those repairs, was sty prized at them. He made in quiries from the Master of the Board of Work s ., and was told, that the business was carried on by the di. rection of that Board. The business did nGt belou t to his department. He did nit ocean to atoivtie any blame ft) the Board of Works; but he i srofrswd his ignorance, except from the information he had mentioned, by what orders the repairs of the house had been undertaken. Sir CHARLES BURRELL hoped that themat• ter would not be suffered to rest in this manner; but that there would be inquiries by what directions the repairs in question had been undertaken. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER professed his ignorance of the intention to undertake those repairs till he had seen the scaffolding. He, however, did not doubt but a satisfactory explanation could be given on the subject. Mr. FREEMAN L'LE thought that this should come under the Civil List, and if that was the CAN there was an Act against any building which would cost upwards of 81,000, without an order from the Treasury. He therefore thought that the subject should be inquired into. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER repeated, that he had no doubt bin there could be a satisfactory reasrn given on the subject. Mr. HILEY ADDINGTON would not impute any blame to the Board ul Works, by the Master of which he had been informed that the repairs were ne. cessary, and that there were many loose stones in the walls of the house. The business did not at all be. long to his department. THANSPOKTATIO,I OF CONVIC7I. Mr. H. ADDINGTON moved the second read. ing of the Convict Transportation Bill. Mr. BENNETT washed to take the opportunity to make a few observations on this subject. The no. fortunate persons who were transported to Botany Bay were subject to great hardships in going out there,' which Government had not in coatemplatio to inflict. From the year 1812 to the year 1614 there were near 3,000 convicts sent out, and he card not calculate the expense of sending them out at lea than 100 each, so that the expense was nearly Jodie what it was in 1810, when it was only £175,000. The terror of the punishment of transportation to Botany Bay was entirely done away, and therefore any benefit could not be expected from the punish ment with regard to deterring from crime. There was also no improvement in the morals of the convicts to be expected, for it was not as was formerly the case, when convicts were transported to America, that they are transported to a population, where the proportion taken was as' one hundred to one, and where the honesty of the old inhabitants may be sup posed to have an influence on the habits of the new ones. This was evident Irons the number of execu tions that occurred in the colony. He therefore thought that the system of transportation was radi. cally bad, and that the convicts could be employed with greater_ benefit to themselves, less expense to the country, and more salutary effects to the corn. munity. Mr. GOULBURN argued, that the colony we in a state of improvement, as was s.hewn in the Re. port of the Committee appointed to inquire into the subject. With respect to the executions in the colony it appeared that they were greatly diminished. The convicts on their arrival in the colony Were eirher ap propriated to private families, or kept in the employ of Government. They could not be punished with , out the order rd . a Magistrate, and then there could not be inure than twenty-five lashes inflicted. He then sheweil from accounts which he read, that the punishment and executions were yearly decrsasiegi also the two last years there had but twenty Mc" dons taken place, and that number, compared id die population, he believed was not a greater pear' don than Loa place at home. He considereci colony in a very progressive state of improvement. Mr. BENNETT explained. . Mr. LOCKHART believed, that the stated the colony was much improved, both with regent to eio• rals and advancement in prosperity. He was Sad* fled, that the transportation of convicts had a favour able influence in deterring from crimes. He lima wish every possible improvement in the transportation of convicts; but he did not think that a practice of such lung standing ought to be lightly abandoned. Mr. HOLFORD alluded to the hulks where con victs condemned to transportation were employed till the ship was ready for taking them out. He would wish that thow were better ordered and regulated than they appeared to be. The report of the In spector of Hulks spoke much in favour of the imp provements that had been introduced in them, and fi the meliorated conduct and morals of the coavicti. But lie was not satisfied that this was the case. 1;1 one hulk, at Sheerness; there were four or 50" of tic's employed, consisting of boys, girls: men a" tti the m a me oe i h t 4 i OL coal:e bak e a r n , Ite o th er 1 'y Proposei 1 POW, tik n re th e pa 4