Star. — London, England, 1816-05-04 00:00:00

rte of last year, those two tf £364,0W; but, by the the emount would be :onsequently, a saving of the average of seven years, was rather ass exceeding, year. ,The Noble Lord from the charge of an ex :he public money: The' termed personal to the observed, when compared expenditure. as a drop of , instance the Crown was in order to do away mis could be more afflicting to have the Civil List, year \vassed . that House, as an expense sl to himself. He should now give an a part of the estimate, which a Right, Gentleman (Mr. Tierney), called for, on a for 4"— cl ang -but which he refused to offer, un:il it ow e b e g iven, in connection with th e whole subject. The Right Hon. Gentleman had moved for the usual o wes, relative to the Civil List, which, according Ad of Parliament , w ere tq be laid before the tij os e„ One Estimate, he perceived, was absent t ot for the quarter ending in January last. The tow s of the delay in producing the Estimate was is: hi s Royal Highness the Prince Regent was in progress of incurring an expenditure at Brighton. t he purpose of establishing his family there. Be , the Estimate was made out, it was necessary to r whether the expenses occurred at Brighton or should not be included in it e This led to ,saraisiation of the whole expenditure at Brighton. vas at length agreed, as Brighton was not altoyal palace, being, in fact, the private property of the isitice Regent, that the expense should not be cne d in the accounts of the Lord Chamber lain . ti 'llte Lords of the Treasury thought it was more ad ,isAble t hat the amount should be defrayed out of the D r ees of the Cr:)wn, instead of being charged on the Ws of the Lord Chamberlain's department. lie stolid seismic to the House the minutes of the pro ceedings which took place on this subject, and whets the Right Hon. Gentleman read those papers, he would hare the ease as clearly before him as possible, The Noble Lord then observed, that the expenses of his depArtment, which in the last year was two bun died and twenty-site thousand pounds, were now es timated at two hundred thcusand, being a saving of tweot).six thousand pounds. This estimate was ' founded on a scale of the most extensive connection with the Continent—no Court being at present shut sga i u st us. This expense was formerly charged on the Civil List : now it was considered improper that &Civil List should have an opportunity of benefit ting to the amount of one honored or one hundred *fifty thousand pounds, in case of any calamity cawing on the Continent, which might destroy our connection with some of tiie foreign Courts. It was therefore :waded to charge this sum on the Conso.' lidated Fund, to which the saving would necessarily go, if, unfortunately, any Contittental.tupture nay. rowed nu . sonneL oon with foreign Courts. If any ocrasioa arose for an extraordinary mission, it was ;wooed that Ministers should come down to Parlia irnt :ind ask for the necessary sum. With respect tp, the filth class, his Royal Highness had been pleased tamer that not more than five hundred pounds s pa r sbo.s;d br expeaded, wisher for creating new, odicers, increasing the salaries of the old, or pensions in those who reared, until the expenses in the de. pirtteetta which it comprised fell from A 110,000 to 125,000 per annum, which was the smallest suns •:t could sup ort it. it was also in contemplation., determine on what odicers might be. dispensed in order to accelerate the proposed reduction.' 1e now came to-the occasional payments. Many of hese were cstused by the war, and now, on the re in of peace, they ought to be reduced. They had I.:e amounted to 330, 340, and even £350,000.0-,301, ,301, St, acid S, they were also very high. In '4l; they amounted to e2271.,000, and in 1'302 they were ss high as £3C6,000. It was proposed, with :sites to these occasional payments, to adopt the piaci* laid down in the Report, and to it all on Par iier.Lat to vote a reasonable suns yearly for contin esti* This would give the House a most potent hold on that expenditure, which, above all others, afforded a latitude to the discretion of the Crown.— He new came to the last head of alteration ; but he should abstain from entering into a detail ofe it, be cause his Bill would fully explain his intentions. It Was stated byahe Committee .of last year to be essen tially necessary that a conttool should be established nef the Household. It was meant therefore to cre ate an Officer who should come in direct contact with the Household—who should not be informed of the upenses incurred by estimate, but should be made, setuaioted with them in their progress; and who Meld have the power, as far as possible, to reduce the general expenditure. That Officer should be ap- Pined by the Treasury, - with power to act in the tot efficient manner, without, however, destroying authority of the heads of departments. It would be tuitions if so extensive a power were given ; for,, %it the hos of authority would be coupled loss of :responsibility also. This arrangement would pro duce a proper audit of the accounts ; for Gentlemen bust be aware, that at present they were audited by the Commissioners of Public Accounts, who, in con sequence of the mass of business they had to transact, could not jospret tbem in time, and undoubtedly hey ought to be audited within the year he there 1131e Proposed to create an Officer who should act under the instructions cf the Treasury, and for whose direction, in the audit of the accounts, a code of regul 'Li's& was to be drawn up by the Treasery. 'this Officer was to have the power, when he had reason in believe dou any abuse had taken place, to call Persons before him, for the papose of fully sifting the business. Such a regulation would add to the fufort and dignity of the Crown, and would tend 1° guard the beads of departments from undue and extravagant expenditure. This was a general de sct of his plan, which be hoped would be fonod usistent with that liberality that was due to the Organ, and with that economy which was called for 1 Y the country. By granting to the Crown a proper '°4 unconnected with those expenses shot ought ibis in justice, to be charged on it, they would put this diffictilt and interesting subject on as satisfactory a tooting as its n at ure would admit. The Secretary 0f State for the oreign Department would, mailer vie mg arrangement, be priced is .a more arduous . eitattion than he ever before stood in. His responsi bility would be greatly increased, when, year after year, he would be obliged to justify to the House the necessity of the different expenses of his department. which were of a description that Gentlemen looked on with a more jealous eye than almost any other. The Crown had been most unfairly, upjustly, and, unfortunately for the country (for any Wiwi, cast on the head of the Government must injure the country) been accused of profusion and extravagance. From this charge it was - his duty to rescue the Sovereign, and he hoped he had succeeded. In the Bill which he was about to move for leave to bring in, there were two or three clauses, which, as they went to al ter the present system, as supported by A et of Parlia ment, it would be hecessary, in the first instance, to submit to a Committee. He therefore Meant to print the Bill, without these clauses, which should also be' printed in a separate shape, and thus Gentlemen would be enabled to judge accurately of the nature of the measure. There would also be placed in the hands of Gentlemen the documents necessary for a just un derstanding of the question. First, the prospective Estimate, in which the different heads of charge were specified. and compared with the items of last year. A second paper was, an account of the Droits of the Crown from the Ist of January, 1814, to the present time, Pointing out what the state of those funds were, the assignments made out of them. and the remain ing balance. The Noble Lord concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill for the batter regulation of his Majesty's Civil List." Mr. TIERNEY expressed his determination. not withstanding the measure introduced by the /sloble Lord, to redeem the pledge he had given to the House, on the subject of the Civil List. He should at present say little on the subject, as the ques tion would, on Monday, be fully discussed. He would not then offer any objection to the Bill, but he did not thereby pledge himself not to oppose it, if neceselery, at a future period, He complained oi l the manner in which the Noble Lord introduced pa pers to the Horse. They never were produced till it was too late in the Session to fuake use of them. A month ago he miared for an account of the Droits of the Crown, which was ready since the 23d of February, but it was not forthcoming until the Noble Lord had made his motion—and it then seemed to be produced for the purpose of creating ember-' rammer. The correspondence, relative to the esti. mate of the Civil List Expenditure, for the quarter ending in January list, was ale!) ready on the e3d of February--and now, for the first time, the Noble Lord thought fit to produce it.—(Hear, bear !) What answer did the Noble Lord in eke when called upOn to produce this paper, which he admited was ready, on a former occasion ; Why, forsooth, that he did not wish to present it till he could accompany it with an exphinat;on of his own and yet now that he had presented it, his own explanation was pet. tectly unintelligible ; and at 'last he was obliged to refer to the paper itself. Tliushe (Mr. 'eierney), after all the trot hle and pains lie had taco to make himself acquainted with the estimates upon this sub. I ject, had now his work to do over again, and had be. tween this and Monday to devote himself night and day to examine die new estimates of the Noble Lord. In his opinion, the platy of the Noble Lord was calculated to give satisfaction, neither to the House nor the country. For his own part, he had nothing in view, but to reduce the expenditure of jlie Civil List to the situation of the country, at the *Ai time, taking care to support the splendour of. the Crown, with becoming dignity. (!icar, hear.) He could not help. observing, however, that front the course taken by the Noble Lord. he should come to his motion, en Monday next, under considerable dis. advantage. Lord CASTLEREAGH was satisfied,lidni the Right Honourable Gentleman's acquaintance with this subject, thathe would be as well prepared to enter upon this question by a preparation of two dais as of two months. He had objected to taking . this question on former occasions in parts. because he thought all its branches should be brought under dis cussion at the same time. Mr. TIERNEY said, he might understand the propositions of the Noble Lord himself, but what he complained of was, that the papers alluded to by the Notate Lord would not be in the hands of ;he Mem hers of the House, and although he might succeed in making the 'Noble 'Lord comprehend him, he might not be equally successful with the House, unless the oapers were in their possession. Sir FitANCIS BURDETT objected to the as sumption of the Noble Lord, timed was propest•to employ the Droits of the Crown and the Admiralty withzut the consent of Parliament. He, denied that there was net , propriety whatever in such a course, and begged to take this-occasion of protesting against this proposition; in principle as well as practice, as well as against the other doctrines which the Noble Lorithad promulgated. The Noble Lord bad talked of the out-goings of the 001 List having a tendency to exceed the provision made by Parliament,•and ot the difficulty of correcting this evile--there. was one short way of effecting, ;this .object, and that was, simply for Parliament to refuse to : make good those excesses, Arid to iefuse to pay any debts Which the, Crown might think proper. taincur. 41100 - or der to bring this matter to a clear understandkng, be thought Minieters should.be responsible for any .out e goings beyond what had been voted by pArliaalLlt. The Noble Lord had stated, that throughout many of the administrations of this country, it had bieb found imposiible to coutroul the expenditure of the Civil List. If the effort bad never been made, there was little chance of effecting the object ; but if . Mr. Burke's Bill had not been violated , this would pmr have beep the case. For Himself he could ottly *ay, that an effectual check might he given to these ex.' ceases by Parliament itself exerting its own vigilaoce, and by calling Ministers to an. account for the misap plication of the public property; for he contended that such was the character of the conduct of Minis ters in applying the Droitstof the Crown and the' Admiralty withouothe consent of the Legislature. • Leave was then given to bring in she jean. MUM . Mr,. ARBUTHNOT presented the. Estimates of the Civil List for the lass quarter, and an Account, of the receipti and application of the Droits of the Crown and Admiralty, by order m the Rrince Reg' • scow -Ordered to tie on the table, The Cork Duty Bill was rid atlord time id • • The Soap Duty Bill was reed a atilt neett.:4o4o4l am!' send dine on ktora4ay awe wren cuansny. Mr. OR.ENFELL presented a Petition from eer., keit) Inhabitants of the City of London, complaining of the state of the Silver Currency of the country, and praying that means might be taken by Parlia ment to correct this evil. He begged to take this opportunity of remarking,. that he was informed his Majesty's Ministers had some measure in contempla tion upon this subject. •He trusted whateveepl.an might be adopted, that his Majesty's Minlsiers would act upon the principle which was recognized by evoril Mint in Europe, with the exception al that, of Eng land—and a principle which had been advocated with great ability by the late Lord . Liverpool. in 180, lamely, that of giving to the people Such a silver coin as the state of thu market would afford. guarded by such securities as would prevent it from being melted down. He also took' this opportunity of vindicating the Officers of the Mint, against WhoM some animadversions passed on a former night,, and begged to bear his testimony to their zeal, attention, and ability, in the Offices in which.they were placed. Mr. W. POLE did not .mean to object to the bringing up of this Petition, and desired to state that the Honourable Gentleman was correctin the ender standing which he had of his Majesty's Ministers hav ing a plan in contemplation for the improvement of the silver currency of the country. This, however, was an intricate subject, which the House would ad- Mit it would take some time to arrange. He was also obliged to the Honourable Gentleman for having paid a just tribute to those Officers of the Mint who had been so unjustly aspersed on a former niiht. So far were these Gentlemen from being found incom petent o their ditties, that, oft the contrary, their la. bouts were attended with the greatest success. In no instance was this better demonstrated than in their coinage of louis d'ors, in which they had succeeded so well as to eall%forth the praise of the Master of the Mint at Paris. He wished the Gentleman who had thought proper to question their ability (Mr. Baring) was present, as he had brought down eight of those coins, sour coined in Paris and four in England, which were so much alike as almost to defy distinc tion, and which he would have handed across the table, so that the Honourable Gentleman to whom he alluded might have..had an opportunity of ac knowledging his mistake—(l/ear,-hear, heari) Mr. J. P. GRANT suggested the expediency of making silver the legal tender in this country as in all others, and leaving gold to find its own market. Sit JOHN NEWPORT wished to know by what authority we had Counterfeited the coin of Frzace ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. we had the sanction of the French King tor this coinage. - Mr. W. POLE denied that there was any coun terfeit of the French Innis d'ors, as we had not stamped those coined in this country with the in irk of the French Mint. Sir JOHN NEWPORT wished to know for what purpose this coinage had taken place ? • The CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER ;inswpred, that it, was to pay the Oritish army un en tering trance. ' Ttie 'Petition was thee brought up, read, and or dered to le on-the Table. • • : LZATHaIt. .7 0 ;11d. 4LeTHCI4P• moved for a Return of the Drawbacks on Leather exparted from Licotland during the last four years.—Ordered. v 02030 PANIC NOTE% General THORNTON moved---- 4 ° That there be laid before the House an 'Account of the nominal value "of such Rink . Notes. paid into the Bank of England, as had afterwards proved to be forgeries, from the Ist tf Jannary, 1812, to the latest period." Ordereil ' RANK RESTRICTION ACT. 'Upon the•elotiOn of the CLIANCELLOR of the EXCITEQUEEL..the -.House resolved uself into a Committee upon the above Act. The first clause being.read, for cOnitiming the Restrictions until July 5,* 1818, • Mr. HORNER observed, that it was not his in tention to • erge any objection against the proposed term of two years. becanse he did hope, from what appeared to be the temper of the Hoo.ta on a former evening, and what fell from some Honourable Gen tlemen in particular, that the Bill would not be per mitted to come out of the Committee merely as a re newal of the Restrictions. He trusted, on the con.' trary, that it would express to the country and to the Bank the opinion of Parliament, that this was to be understood as the last possible renewal which could be granted ; and that this large interval of time was givetb in order -that the Bank and the Gosernment might, together, take such measures as would enable the former to resume their payments in specie at the expiration of the declared period. That was his ex pectation, but if 'it should turn out otherwise, he 'should then feel it his duty to take the sense of the 11? use in every future stage of the Bill, as to the pro prrety of extending the Restrictions for to long a ;ime. He trusted, however, that course would be rendered unnecessary, by the introduction into the Bill of some clause which would accomplish his objee. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER Said, he perfectly coincided in what had fallen from 'the Honourable and Learned . Gentleman. He coati deed, the term of two years s.s only so much time granied . to . the Bank, to enable it to prepare for the resumption of cash payments, without any injury to the public interests. At the contlusion of that time, it al). those favourable-.circumstances should continue„ whiclenow existed, the Bank would regard itself as Positively bound to pay in specie. One year would be too short for such. an operation, and therefore he .should certainly recommend to the House to pass the' Bill in its present form. Wkh respect to the object 'cnntemplated by the Honourable and Learned Geo.' Aleuiewv he thought that would be distinctly attained by the very principle of the Bill. • 'Mr. HOKNELL-replied, that what he wished 'Wai l totave a clause introduced into the Bill, which shOuld umbedy the opinion of Parliament, as expressed on All sides of the House, as to the absolute .necessity 'that the. Bank should resume its cash payments after the time designated. As to the course now pursued,. It left the Bill just as barren, as before upan that point: . r tlfloarr, trier)--If he felled in persuading the Corn glutei, "to introduce such a 'clause, he should feel ittaiself. bound. to purple the measure he had already jotiatased. His object was, not -to prescribe any piwteific plin which the Bank were to adopt ; on thit reboot he would repose tits entire parliatimentary coo• . : .. t ' " • Sdence io them: but why not act upon the declare. tion made by en Honourable Director on a farmer evening, that if the House would give its directions to t h e Bank, the Bank would follow them ? N. w that was precisely what he wanted to have in the pre sent Bill, a declaration to the Bank end the "cautery' that this Was the last time any further restrictions . would be allowed. The Hotiottrable and Learned Gentleman then proposed s clause, the enacting part of which provided, that , by tee sth. lily, ISIS, the Bank should be ready to 0 ty all its promissory notes. on 4einand, in specie i with a recital, setting forth, • That it Parliament should find' it prodeet or safe to require the resumption of cash partients • before that period, it should be at liberty to dos°. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought the object of the Honourable and Learned Gentllmanis clause might be attained without its in sertion. He had given notice, on a former evening, of his intention to introduce certain words into the preamble of the Bill, declaratory of the intention of Parliament, which he would now read to the House. He apprehended they would be found better than thil clagse of the Honourable and Learned Member, 1 which, in point of fact, enacted nothing more than. Iwhat the law hadalready declared. Alter the usual words of the preamble. that it was highly desirable 1 the Bank of England should, as soon as possible, re.. turn to its payments in cash, he proposed to add -44 but kis expedient also that a further continuance in the present restrictions be granted, in order to alfotd time to the Bank for resuming such payments in cash witout puhlicioconvenience. ' He did not think it would kpossible to have a more distinct de. aeration of the sense of Parliament. Mr. GRENFELL said, he collected from the ob servations of the ?tight Hon. Gentleman that he wished the House to trust in his opinions, rather than . in a Parliamentary declaration. He (Mr. Greulell) was more disposed to confide in the latter than On the former; for last year, when the same subject was be. fore Parliament, the Right Hon. Gentleman cora. &tidy affirmed that he thought the Bank might re sume its cash payments next July, and now, when the price of bullion was much lower, and the foreign_ee. changes in our favour every where , he called upon Parliament to protract the restrictions two years longer.' He should, therefore, prefer a parliamentary declaration to any opinion which he might offer. -Mr. MARR YAT thought that the addition pro. posed by the Chancellor cl r the Exchequer to the pre-' amble of the Dill was not so authoritative as a clause introduced into its enactments, and that it was totally insufficient for the end.in view. It was necessary to ' return speedily to cash payments, if lie wished to maintain commerce, to stiNv.rt our manufactures, or to prevent the recartencts-o! those &stresses and con -1 vulsions under whi‘h the country was at present suf fering. It sitould be recollecied that peace had placed us in a differenl• situation with tepid to. out fireign trat!e than that #hich we occupied in. war. —ln war we enjoyed A monopoly, aad however nigh the price we, demanded, we could : mbtain, it,. because we had no competitors in..the market. Now [he case was aite:ed. Ci(elr- nations wae clai tn. Mg theft' share of the general advantages resulting from trade and industry, and they toted enter the . career without our but dons.- -Tfey could afford tO fabricate ahnost an articles in whiCh we dealt clieaper • • than we. They could undersell us in the markets. to _ which we resorted. They . cpuld L ._mettufacture cheepee than we—they could nav i gate Weir - Vessels for less. Out of 186 ships that passed the Havannah with car goes for South America, not one was British. If we looked at the property coqnected with our commerce an d ; hipping, we saw a lamentable depreciation.— The shares in the fund of the I...indon Docks, that sold for 120 or 150 per cent. now sold for 70 or 75. The issue of paper had turned the foreign exchanges against us. This circulation bad been diminished, and produced distress. He rejoiced at this diminu tion of the currency, although it had been productive of temporary inconvenience; because, otherwise, we might be universally undersold in foreign markets. Our ships would be without eliploymena, our Mann. f accuser's without work, our capital unproductive.. Nothing could prevent this bet the precaution of re. turning to cast payments. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER repeated his statement, that the opinion of Parliament would be sufficiently declared in the preamble, by the "introduction of the words he had read. Mr. SMYTH supported the clause. Mr. BAIslii.ES er.ifessed that the Bill, as it stood; at present, did not, in his opinion, sufficiently express the intentions of Parliament. By merely introducing the words proposed by the Right Honourable Gen tleman, it would look like nothing more than one of the ordinary renewals of the restrictions, If, there. fore, there were no other reason for departing from the customary mode, he would do it, to chew that• they meant tome:hi:lg different from what they had formerly done. He wished to 'convey to the Bank and to the Public :In idea that they were now in ..ear.. tizst. He would suggest the aarertion of some such. words as the foli:ming— , That it is expedient to, provide that the slid Act should be further continued, and a time tiled in which the said restrictions should. cease." They would definitively determine the meaning of Parliament, and then it might be further added—" that the said Act should continue in force till the sth July, 1818, and no lenger.'?" Mr. HUSIgSSON censiileti reti:dthee. iie of debate i st.f mucht e foerneiceVeging as having tea pro gocsd, as it bsad eltteidited . the grOonds On'Which. the Dill was to pass the. Honda. The principle which Mi. Pistol actc4 On was tint hom any political viewi, but . , s tmpky . tax prepatin the' Bank . to meet , t he : cieniand riviticfr •squiticrbe4es Fily be made ' an then). He thought it reasonabl to grant therasufficient time for preparatioe,ae4l was glad tcriee the Muse agreed on this general grounclu tte preanible, had been oh. jetted to,. in Ontsexpience of its lieiiig virtually the same with llseyear's preamble, anclit had been said the Directors wereinst as sincere then in their klesires 'to meet the pnblic,demands for cash payments as t hey ,were nor., Out he dittsset agree in the opinion lof their having made no implication for . such paT merits, as they knew well 'The'intentions of Parlia ment, end consequently mud hive prepared.. Re wished, so.ne words to he introduced into the prune: ble, to obviate ever doubt which might aria on the• subject, and suggested these words be aided—" To afford time to them-to make such prepayations with, out public inconvenience, for meeting the public do. minds, as to their experietice and wisdom ilio;:yi di;: tic.:. ~i.i.~~.v~. arriametit. By the estiMal l a ses created an expense o f h u ge of the present year 7 0,0(X). There was, C m ,ope as compared with th p 1811, although there cotnrahen red_with the'last delended• the Crown f i tt oapaut expenditure of irns es which might be rinse Regent, were , he oh jib the whole mass of ex ate is the ocean. In this ctiog a most painful part, cations. Nothing ct prince Regent than to year, canvassed in the • personal to himself. • -•:• , n- on a part of the