Star. — London, England, 1816-02-27 00:00:00

i u Pratt; ' qt • It " It is., t mi: 'at On i L r thi ng " ' 7 0riv417: 4 . tro 14, !Ilse at d ' 1)44 b ee et 40 rd oa r ti the 441 a the t 0 Aare•,_ 'Partd lesz., , . • 4ow m em i c a app to the spirit of f•• • • —Mar, kw, * th 9 Opfteeitiels).—. ginuton• -- % Gentleman, indeed, had professed l li t h e /1 8 y re himself—to deliver only his indivi le:' o ne • a ele —to make no one but h imself ans eel.- fa , *h i e h e had said ; belt he(Mr. Bro ugham). ogee the Right Honoura bl e G entleman ' s speech owed • • • ial exposition of principles, not only from ' •• t ' ,I the House from which the Right Ho. Pe Geetleinan had spoken. but more espe- Ifrom t h e sen timents with which it was fraught, eat the documents with which it was furnished, e o ns the ostentatious sort of official tone and dis. with which it had been delivered. He would ▪ to all those who had been present at the di:: e ns in the House daring the Session, whether it 1 ,it all aloft been the plan of the Noble Lord 1 tee •, a nd his colleagues , to s i t from da y to da y in p;aces —to hear questions asked by himself and ifonnurable Friends without giving any answer— the debate carried on without taking any due e e it I But now, the Right Honourable Gen- 1 , se was.set forward, and with a sort of remem- , s e of his official habite and resumption of &B row' conies before the. House with a kind of wea n(' gave what could be looked upon iiieno 0 light than as the Government statement upon , eeportant occasion.—( Hear, hear, from the Olelle- The House was therefore now to consider " ).. '" ete nt of Government principles upon which isate „ se m for the maintenance of an imMense mill --(0 was to be supported. No reason w as given o e House should go into a Committee. The i i: r ein danger. The question before the House ddb: r the constitution was to be destroyed lair an e ee,Otermen ?this was the great question. rei t tion which he and his friends made was not Pdta to ally particular part :of the de t ails of the g eneni—it was to the w h o le system.. It had ire e said that the aspect of the times was Lllllitary ' esera were great military Monarchs—that the ; t s of the people were enured and trained to war, jaw tbetefore we must accommodate ourselves e t prevailing fashion of the times—we roust put lour old-fashi tiled habits and inclinations for peace, i rget our constitutional hatred of standing antic;. 1,,,,k0, from the Ortmitioa.)—The words of the ser onsent had been la harmooy with their acts — led not only shewn their dispesitiun in our este eients—in the extension and creation of Military e but ieiiistitutions net the lass dangerous be• t eey were not under the controul of Par liernent, ' ,files: inside us tendency because they bore the t name of Cla3l.—(llear, hear). —On this he. concurred in the opinion of au illustrious e iCimmander as to the nature of these institu. p i p, who bad out only refused his assistance in pro iseetheir formation, but had expressed his abhor pad them as unconstitutional and hostile to the Wit sod usage of this country.—(Hear, hese)._ erltight Honourable Gel - airmen (Mr. Yorke) had eJ, ea the treatment which was recommended to ads the army was irierateful—that it ores laudan • n, etussely,' and tolor.la:. lie (Mr. Drotielsein) see in the praises which h.id been hestewed On die ros-ant from empty wonder and groundless ae ietion, lot because they h.4J done real service to e country, and lie said not therefore wish tiee they hold be perverted to our destruction—he would is to praise their triumph*, and raise altars or pil es to mold then:—but he would else disband them, they might not be as fatal to England as ihey bed to Bon Tarte. It had been said we had ~1 It ee a reat arinyen safety. An army in °tear COtild not be constitutionally mischievOtib; seamed dud in activity, for ends beneficesl to ovatier• but bring it home, let it be in this at the direction of the Executive--even if it be melee tile s. commind of Or fi zers as pure corruptible as it. was possible to conceive, s.ihl sot nitil..-Mtil in a state of subordination and . not' to P erliartient, but another ' bower, megin be employed by that power either against vestment or the People. The Right Honour- Gentleman (4r. Yorke) had askest whether 41* 'opposed that the Gentlanien of Eng pi, the (Akers of that army. 'could turn three pi spina their country ?—(Hear, h:ar, 'hear) lath an an appeal had been made ;n Ulmer times,. is what seen and indignation would it heve been wed ? (Hear, hear.) Could 'the Right Honour. ib Gentleman who was so well versed ie Whig ere. liests,advlece such a doctrine I Let him imagine lain former times it had hem said that the army bander the command of Lord Cedogen and Lord iterbornugh, the very pillars of Whig principles, si that, therefore, it could not be turned against the sale. Would it not have been then said, that as oils soldiers were subordinate to the Crown the Par t was bound net to maintain one man more were absolutely necessary to the safety of the try. (Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentle bid quoted the m eanible of the Bill of Itielits, , w that it Parliament paes , el a law for the main 11rlice cf . an army in the time of peace, the measure d not b e ill ega l. Thi s was true enough, but did eve that an Army was necessary in time of peace, teat it was not altogether . contrary to the spirit of Bill of Rights, and of all the enactments and rules the maintenance of our, military twee, that any should be maintained who were not absolutely soy to our safety, because during peace that must be at home, and could not act but in a et hostile to our Constitution ? The peace este lent of Mr. Fox bad been cited by the Right • Gentleman, not because he had any wish. to tr the precepts or principles of that great man, as a species tS argunsentunt ad hominess, in which us el the Right Hon. Gentleman's stamp I delighted. Mr. Fox, in 1784, had proposed to House a peace establishment of 50,000.ne.n, no tle circumstances of the country at that time— 's to s a y, j est • one•third of the present establish t• • How then, were the remaining 99,000 men ° tett for 1 It WAS said there had been a great se in cur population. On this principle every se of our population was Supposed to be an in of our weakness, and sour ce of disturbance 1 ed we were t o decide by the Rule of Three, that if eight millions of peop le we required fifty thou lid soldi ers , with fifte en millions we required only twice as many 1 But the fact was, that in L' 64 the country was much more disturbed than at e ; and could any man for a moment attempt Sta 14.40aY9 drat as to enema' danger there was any corn owlw een that time wed thisi :41, Mike We this rest u &not Isi which it thret WAS ICe t I al% ,1 sill if cube We 1 L, arm be is nt ar• aii,i'• i t, 0 force colo• rv ert gar , . • • 1 bad caaeltulad a war, or which it was ha r d to say 1 whethir it hid failed most in Eutope or America.-' l [The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then took a rapid Iview of the 'disastrous situation of the f 'reign relations of. the couatry at that period.] And at that epoch so pregnant with danger, Lord North and Mr. Fox had proposed anesablishment of fifty thousand men; but in the present halcyon days three times that num ber was demanded. Of that year the whole expense Was A 7,821,000; and of 1787, which, as to tranquil lity, was Bearer on a level with the present, it was re4,B9l,o3o,.instead c.f twenty or twenty-one minions. It was worthy of notice, in how ingenious a manner the Ministers had contrived to fritter away questions of the greatest national importance. Instead of ge neral debates as to the policy of die country, which they.always deprecated, they. took at once some one feature, as it was called, of that policy. On last Mon day the Treaty was debated, and that debate havino passed by. all that was then decided was held to be Gospel—the House was :owed from calling it in quntino, and the thirty thousand men to be main tained in France' were held to be absolutely decreed.l This night the military est iblisliment was the feature, i and on some future night it will be the Property Tax. ' ,4 I (said Mr. Brougham) will not disjoin one fea ture from another ; they are all in harmony—they have all the same expression —they are pan of the same face—they all look one way—all look against the Constitution, and torm neither more nor less than the visage of a Military Monarchy"— (Year, hear). —This division - of our policy into features, he con tinued to say, had many incidental advantages ; they were that night told of a black spot in the horizon— not a word of this in the debate on the Treaties! If ' in that debate a man had suggested that there was a spot even as big as the hand, lie would have been denounced as nothing less than a false and malignant prophet ; all was then bright, and beamiit with gay prospects of everlasting peace. liut now, on the question of military establislimeuts, forth reime the volunteer !Minister with his War-Orliee Speech, de claring that nothing but black spots were to be seen; which would soon gather into clouds and discharge their veng eance on our he ids. Now as to the 3d,Otet men Li 'France, though he and his friends had ob jected to them on grounds of foreign policy, they were not constitutionally so dangerous RS the troop. which were to remain at home, although he was cim winced that these troeps would n n be entirely paid by the French Government, end would he previded fur in part in the Army Extraordinaries. Neither was the force in the Colonies, though it involved such an alarming extent of influence, dangerous in that double degree to the Constitution, 'as the force in this country end Ireland. This colonial force hid been increaxii its a m inner quite Inexcusable. Fie the West ludies and Canada 23,000 men were to be kept tee ; a number tar beyond the establishment el any former period. Whence arose the additional danger ? Was France more formidable than in l:81 , ? And was our uncoetested maritime superiority of no avail to the safety of our colonies. Or did they re quire three times as many men to defend them as at a period a hen we had suffered defeats by lend and drawn battles at sea ? The more the calculation was followed up, the less would the proposers of this un exanseled establishment gain by the scrutiny ; end they weuld gladly resort to general arguments Mitt the visions of remote danger drawn from the military se'rit of Europe—(Wear, hear, hear.) — If we might apprehend dancer from this spirit at some future time, a plain In In would ask, why we thould ein wait 4 few years, and save oursi...le.s arid our reszences till ihe if anger maailested it cif ? It e as eviden_that the results of the last victory had been such,' in the dismemberment and disunion of France, . that though [last country had a wish to re venge itivlt, arid though we could not trust either its Monarch or his family, the state of Europe and the aggrandisement of our military character left us less to fear fiorn refit- natural enemy (as France had been called) than at an'y time since the Revolution of IGSfi,' or even long before that epoch ; and this Was the mu- ' ment when it was pt cie ores! to retablith a eereetual mi. litary force which had never been conte . mplated when all Europe was leagued against us. not even at tim,a; when gar was actually 1.3411114 . I It was . a fact as to which the Right Hon. Gentleman .might satisfy him. self by hgores, to which he loved so well to refer, that in the seven years war, when we defeeted France ii; all quer.rrs of the globe, our military force was not hall that which was now proposed as a Peace !Establishment —(Hear, hear.) • Bust they were told is was a chimera to suppose that an army could be dais. gerons to the C . onstitution ; that an army was the most innocent and harmless of all establishments.— Without inquiring into all the ways in which an army might be iojuriour to - the Conititution„ was it not enough to prove the danger, that it bore with it an immense system of influence, which was not the less inittrious to the interests of the people, or less fatal to the constittitiim, because it was not in the hands of a resperisible Minister who might be questioned day by day in that House (though questions of late bad not been enswered), but in the hands of a person in timately connected, both by interest and blond, wigs a power which was neither Lords nor Commons, nor Cabinet, Pint the Crown itself ?—( Hear, hear.)—\Vas there no danger to be apprehended limn the traffic which might possibly take place between the Crown ' and powerful individuals, who in return for commis semis migtit engage their families to serve the Mo narch, politically, and themselves to serve him mili tarily ?—(Hear, hear, hear.) --But to warrant this tremendous danger to our liberties and constitution, the plea eves, that' there had been a change in the country; that our arsenals, depots, and dock-lards, were larger; and that unless we would lay . open' these establishments. and allow the rabble to break in and steal, we must increase our niilitery force.-- Now, was it that these arsenals contained more stores than formerly—that the quantity of hemp, and anchors, and masts, had so increased, that by a view of these very portable and alluring stores the people would be beyond all measure enamoured. and would net. without military interference, be restrained from the indulgence of their larcenous pro. pensities ? And was it from the great quantity of old iron, that we WWII to have an army of 150,000 men i He (Mr. Brougham) could scarcely believe that he , had heard it. Was it that the buildings were larger, and that it would be more easy to break into'a great house than a small one ? In time of war, he granted,' or in the event of insurrection of his Majesty's loving tubjects, of whbse universal happiness they had hears ' 1 1 In the Speecta front the Throne (though they had that night received C 6 Petitions from a small district)." if k was said there was a danger of insurrection; and that the garrison of Plymouth had been increased in client, additional force might be necessary. But ,agaicti midnight depredators, or t h e c him era o f p o . nplar insurrection, a smaller force woull be sufficient. And he hoped the Right Honourable Gentleman (MeYorke) would not suffer himself to be led astray. by any abstract view Of nocturnal depredation, or the portability of sheet anchors, but would follow Lis mt• tural good sense, and those practical notions of the nature of man, which he had recommended to those who made reflections on Courts and Courtiers. He (Mr. Brougham) had, perhaps, wasted mote time than they deserved on the propositions which had that night been advanced, but the unwarrantable principles, and the cool talk of the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Yorke), as to the bugbear which had frightened the opposition side of the House, had pro voked him (Mr. Brougham) to enter his protest against those principles, and endeavour to recal to 'the House the feelings of better times. He hoped the House would not be led away, by illusory details and ittms, which might be multiplied at pleasure, from the view of the sudden and groundless ex tension which was meditated of the influence of the Crown, against which the efforts of the House and the People should be directed.—(Hear, hear,h— He had not said one word about the Property Tax, because that was a question' perfectly separable from the question of the increase of the army. If the House agreed to maintain establishments which were Inconsistent with the liberty of the country—if they coroceted to change the whole form of the Constita. Lion. which Was founded on the predominance of the civil power, great as the question which then rem lint d undoubtedly was—namely, whether the people sh,arld he ground in their property, are, h lying been strip, ped of their rights ? (Hear, hear. ) —Yet, compared with the colistitutirreal tjuestiole it was u illag and sfiberilinate. The House, once for all, should m eke 4 stand against the ruin of the Constitution. And lie would entreat and implore the Noble Lord and his Colleagues that they would not be led away by their majorities. The people ( who had sometimes sup ported them in mustires of which they had since bit. terly repented), now the war was at an end, and thz plea of necessity—the plea so often used when right vas opposed to might—could not he advanced ; were resolved to assert that they would be deprived of their rights nn longer. He implored the Nehle Lord and his Colleagues, that they would not bring the matter to a closer issue. Their majorities might fail (though this might seem a chimera), but at any rate, out of loos, the voice of the people would be raised ; and if the ceeetien was treated with the delibera tion wiech was due t h it, before it was decided they would find the sentiments of the country es. pressed (respectful e, he hoped) but in a tine which even the cool courage of the Noble Lord (Castleieagli) could not resist ; 66 and if at this in nu eut," said Mr. Brongharn, 66 there is in the Council; of the country one feithtul Councillor, who knows his duty AS well to the people as to tee Clown, he will tell the Illustrious Personage at the head i f the State, that this is not a eatioa to be toed(' siihiervient to the whims and caprices of a Tvlifir it y Monarch ; that he was established on the Thine by the strength of the Civil against the Military Power, tor. the benefit of the people, and by the People—by the prevalence of light dg lies; might --(heir,' hear)—he will tell him. in shat , IiIAS this is Enerarid and not Germany ! (lase' elks of bar,)— , liat liavr-r wishes to indulge himell iu ehiskered huts trs, and well have a jelly- thieg et the expease saute cig'lt or ten millions yearly, and at the expense of the Constitution of the Country, must not seek it in England. This honest Couacillor, if such there be, will seek to allay the military mania which, I admit, does privail, and it it has reached England, and is to be found in a cei sails quarter, this State Physician will use his alerts to route it our, as a malady most fat al to our liberties and true glory." (Near, hear, *.ear.) Lord PA L ME RSTON said that he was fir from being disposed to complain of the Honourable Gen tleman who spoke last foe the tone Which he assumed, eeceuse it could have very little weight with the Hou s e. lithe Honourable Member was not more tortuuate in future, eiere would certainly he little, .round to compliment him on the success of his per eanel attacks. What was the courie,which the Ho nourable Gentleman had adopted ? -He had launched out into vehement declamation against the constitu tional danger of any standing armies, and then upon the danger of a peace establishment. • Was it meant it-was unconstitational to have any standing army ? It was impossible to say so. • All statesmen agreed on' the necessity of such an establis!iment. Nay, Gentle. men on the other side of the House had admitted that. the circumstances of the times required a • large-peace establishment; and yet the course which was now at tempted to be pursued, was to' prevent the HouSe !tom going into the Committee to consi&T and determine the amount of, the force which would be .required—(Hear, hear, hear.) They would not allow House to go into the details—(Hear, hear.) — They had said to the Gentlemen on his side of the House, 16 you do wisely to keep out of details, and to confine yourselves to the general subject ;" and , they might have added, 61 we do wisely to confine ourselves to a. general attack—( Loud shoats of hear, hear)—and not even to allow the Estimates to be laid before Parliament." This course, however, it must' be confessed, was in some degree convenient to the occasion, because the general question of the plaint& nonce of the military force might very conveniently he entered into, without going into the pecuniary . arrangements. He was therefore prepared to shew, both generally and in detail, the grounds on which the military force Was necessary. In going through the question he would confine himself to the 99,000 men for Great Britaih and Ireland, and the Colonies. As to the force to be. kept up in India, that might be matter for separate discussion, as its amount was set tled by the Charter, which itself had bee; settled' by Act, of Parliament. It, therefore, any Honourable Gentleman was prepared to contend, that too great a force was to be kept up in India, a separate ques. tion might be raised upon it. The same observation applied to the army to be kept up in France. His first wish was to impress upon the mind of the Wiuse, that although the country was now - at peace, it was impossible at mice. to come to the scale of a permanent peace establishment. In no view could it be deemed wise or expedient to lower our military • Aro, ;Mee &stay on the conclusion of the Mat o tp the rate at which it would stand when the country was fairly settled into a state of peace. There must be an, intermediate point at wh;ch theiforce was now to be fixed, between the Establishment of War and the perrninent Establishment for the time of Peace.— is might i h r e e ( d i i i w o i r S. G •d rt. i a n t to ßr f i r ti r n h ; ea 2 d j s , The force of 99,000 men , w hi c h h e h a d meiv i oned, for That Ireland;' which 3d, Fur the old Calonies, that is, those irliich were in posse- .ion of this country in 1791 and 1792; and, 4thly, That %which would be required (or 'lose new . Colonies acquirial during the war, and cedA to us' by the Treaty of Peacr. The distriblition was as folloi•s: for Great Britain 2.5,000—t0r Ireland 25,01 b . —for the Old Colonies 24,000—f0r the New Oslo. nies 22.300—and for reliefs 3,000. In all 99;000 . men. He would nth go into the details of the f4t for Ireland, further than eating that the relation b e e tween the two countries being that of he exerc;se of the duty ot protecti.el, on the one hand, and Ordi. enc.: en the other. He would say little on the nn. fortunate situation of the country—el the Migts trates being actually in peril of their lives in the exe cution of their duty ; in such a situ ttion of a Cirs. l it would nut do to act on suen principirs ut pt.liey would be expedient if it were in a tranquil state. If the Legislature would have the lows respected, it was a duty to afford assistance to that class of awn to whom the execution of the laws were int , osted. —(Hear.)—But the situ ttion of Ireland would soon be more ably orougl-t before the House. (The Noble Lord then ent„red into tl , :e details of the emettnt of force to be kept up in etch of the colenies, stating, clem ly and distincl)•, the reasons for the atnouat of force in each ; and comparing the amount now kept up, at each of the old s colonies, with what it had been in 1791 and 1793; eed in the new colonies with the amount of the enemy's force in theta at the time they were taken.) It apt aced from the statement of the Noble Lore, th it in the old Colonies the total ....sta. blishrnent in 1791 had been about 17,003—it was 'now 22,019. As to the new C doilies the farce now kept up in e them was, on an average, less than that kept in them by the enemy, in the ratio of about two or three. We must confine ourselvesto the following statement of the force at each station, omitting the satisfactory and conclusive reasons stated by the Noble Lord for each particular number. In Gibral. tar 4000 ; in North .America, including the B dia. nuts, 150 ; Jamaica, 4000; Leetvard Isiands, 5300. .Then as to the New Colonies: in Ceyl..n, 3000 ; the Mauritius, 3000; and the same number at the Cape of Good Hope. •Oa the Coasts of Africa, IOW; Trinidad and St. Lucie, 413V0 ; Malta and the lonian Islands, 7000; St. Helene, 12th); Leeward Islands, 5,500. In addition to all these there were 30001(1. lowed for reliefs. This letter was the number which it WAS calculated it would be necessary to have always on the way, for the porpese of reli wing the diti:e errisons. In the course f these details he pertice. I:trle expati iced nn the importance of our possessinns :ia Meth America and the West Indies, but p mica larly in the fourter. Tire Canadas, he represented, Isapplied us with hemp and other articles for naval stores, which rendered us in a great meastrre pendent ,on our supply flora the Baltic, besides the vast impettence of our trade in that quarter from the qu unity et tonnage emple ; ed in it. Without mt in - ing to raise any denhts as to the probehiley of ihe duratien ot the ieletinna of amity now sebsivine tween thii ceuetry and tae United :Rates (aed he hoped that both countries were so senot,li to.o their true interest was in the caltivation, of the spirit of pe ice), he urged, in contradiction to the arguments of the Honourable Gentlem in ( Itle:Broagletas), that the increase of the population in the Caneties requited a proportionate increase of the military ekablishrneut, especially in a country sn situated, both with respect to its situation as borderieg w hit the territaries of the L: cited States and the nature of the face of the country. 'rite increase of the population had facilitated any hostile attempts, and, in point of feet, the axe aid the plough of the settlers made them sit :as pioneers to appreaching invaders. The force proposed, for the home station was 25,000 men, only 8000 mere than in 1791. Ws would not appear too great an augmentation if compared with that of oar calonia force, which required a proportionate increase in our depot at home. It might also happen, that the arms in France sheuld be called into action ; and the pns. stbility of such an event might be deduced front the very reasons which compelled the residence of that army in the French territory. Suppose, then, that it should have to fight a battle, and should experi ence casualties to the amount of two or three thou sand men. unless there should be a sufficient force at home to replace them immediately, the integrity and efficiency of our army would be destroyed. Neither would it be good economy to expose to decay the works which peace rendered useless for the present, for the country would have greater expenses to incur to put then; into order when circumstances ter:lt:red it. The increase of our forces in the Colotoes was seven thousand men,- in Great Britain eight thousan.f, ia all fifteen thousand. If to this were added ten. !boi l . sand for .Ireland, the whole would emottet to 25 thousand. It it was maintained that our c.ilonies were too numerous, then let the Honourable Gentle men bring the. subject before the House ; let them. lay their finger on the particular colony which they thought we should discharge from our society. He thought that it was incumbent on Moisten to pro pose such an establishment as in their conscience they believed necessary for the safety of the Uoited King doms. It through.a spirit of false economy, or an illoimed wish to catch at popularity, they should pro pose an inadequate establishment, and future cala-* mities should be the .consequence, the Honourable Gentlemen opposite would not be the last to complain of their conduct. It had been asserted that the great ness of our military establishment was the only cause of the proposed continuation of the Property Tax; but on the best calculation, after reducing that estab rnent 25,1400 men, to what it was in former years, and deducting the half pay to the reduced officers, the saving produced would not exceed £600.000. It was tierefore clear that no retrenchment in that de partment could supersede the necessity of that Tax, and that no diminution could be gained that would. answer the expectations of the country. The quer . tion therefore,was, whether we stood prepared to ab. dicate our elevated station in Europe, and to descend to the level of secondary powers, We might do it, and we might lull ourselves into dreams of deleittill security, but we should seas be roused• from our . - •