Star. — London, England, 1807-02-17 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS, FEBRUARY 16. Mr. FITI.t.TIt, Chairman of the Maidrtore Vleaion Commit tee, repotted, that Sir Robert l'eele. a Member of that Commit tee. was prevented from attending this day by an attack of the gout, which cireurnßance he had communicated by letter to the Chairman, and the Ccmmit•ee had Jacieupon adjourned until the ple4ure of the Houk fhould be known. Ewbank attended at the Bar to verify the ciremnftance of the illnefs of Sir Robert Peele and fald, that the probable periud of his confinement was uncertain. Ord:red. that Si: Robert Peek be excufed from farther attend ance on faid Committee. The Sheriffs of London prcfented at the Bar a Petition from the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, :old Common Council, prayii g a Bill for the Enlargement and better Regulation of Smithfidd Market. It was received, read, and on the motion of Sir Charles Price. referred to a Committee; as was alto another Petition from the fame body, prrfented by the Sheriffs immediately afterwards, praying a Bill for widening the Entrance into the Gity, Vl'eftward of Temple Par. Mr. JENKINSON prefented a petition fr•m the pilots of the Cinque Ports, praying that the old laws for their regulation might he continued—Referred to a Committee. The SOI ICI roR GENERAL role to remind the Houk, that the order for the freond reading cf the bill to render the freehold eßates of 'wraps dying infolsent affets for the payment of their firnple contr.dt debts, was changed to Wednefday next. He cal led the a. tention of the Hoek to the matter now, merely for the purpofe of it timativg, that if any Gentleman had objections to offer agalnlt the hill, and writhed to defer the fecund read' to a more diftant day, he thould haven() objection to accommodate them If not, the Houle would recoiled that the (mutt' reading Rood fix-d for Wedwfday. There ws: noolj.aion made, and the order ftands accordingly. Mr. AN' HURL l' brought up the report of the Committee ap pointed to fearch for precedents in the cafes of Member: expelled the Houk of Commons —Ordered to be printed. Lord •1 . F.N4 PI ,E prefented a Bill for extending the powers of an Ad paired hit Salon, for allowing the importation of Pruffian Ellen yarn in neutral fbips, by allowin; the fame privileges as for Otrman linen Tarn—Read the firft time, and ordered for the (mind reading to morrow. The irini Sugar Drawback Pill, the len Anerlion Duty Bill, and the feint Quit Rent Bill, were read in Committee, and mdered to be reported to-morrow. PAPERS RELATIVE rn THE CARNATIC. Sir THOMAS TV/CI ON deferrel his n.otion which ftood for to morrow, until Thurfday ft!imight. Sir THOMAS TURTON rofe for the purpof of Acing the Noble Lord oppofite him (Lord Henry Petty) whether he con templated the introdunion of any change in the Property Tax, either with refpeet to the kale of aireffinent or that of exemption? if the Noble Lord intended any. foal change, it might be uniiecef fary for him to trouble the Committee of Finance with any obfer rations upon the fubjet ; but if not, he certainly thould (peak his fenriments thereon. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHF.QRER rofe to inform the Hon. Baronet, that he had no change of the tax in contempla. tion upon either ground. Sir WILLIAM CURTI; prefented a petition from certain merchants of Lond-n ipterefted in the Weft India Trade, againft the Slave Trade Al.olition Bill now pending.-" Ordered to lie on the table. A Meffage from the Lords Rated, that their Lordthips had puf fed a bill for relieving from certain difabilities, Lord De Dunftan ville, in confequenee of his having fat and voted as a Peer of Par liament, before he bad taken the Oaths, and requetting the con currence of the therein —Read the firft and fecond time, and referred to a Sckdt Commiitee, who were ordered to fit forth with. Mr. VANSI TTART prefented an emu.: t ci the net pro4uce of the Property Tax for the tau two years. Ordered tope printed. Mr. MANNING gave notice, that hz lb tuld msve to morrow for copies of fuch grants as had been made by his Majefty of lands in the Weft ind'a Mends. Sir CHARLES PRICE prefented a petition from the Ship- Owners of the Port of London, againft the continuance of the (hip tonnage duties beyond the war. Lord TEMPLE wilhed to know if the petition was from all the Ship Owners ? Sir CHARLES PRICE anfwered the Noble Lord,that if the petition was not from the whole, it was from a very numerous portion of them. The petitiot: was received. read, and ordered to lie on the table. Oa the niotinti of theCHA NCELLOR of the I XtdHEQUE.R, the eonfideration of the Mt for encouraging the Weft India trade was poitpuned till to-morrow. THE YINAYCES• Lord CASTLEREAGH role tornnve, that the tonfideration of the refolutions which he had the honr.r of propofing fliould be pollponed to a future day. He thotrlJ, therefore, with, that the debate on the rein luti ms of the Noble Lord (H. Petty) fhould be alfo poaponed, as he thought it would be equally impof -3,1)e for him to difcufs his plan, without at the fame time difcuiling the objeCtions which had been made to it ; and he thought the Houle was not then fuffi eientlf prepared for fuch a dikullion. He tholtight it neceffary, befOte he made his motion, to offer one or two observations, in order to narrow the grounds of difference between him and the Noble Lord, and to enable the Houle merely to compare the funda mental priticiples on which the different plans relied. He had relied very much on the idea that, after the . year IS to, the exceffes of tke Sinking Fund would he foffi.-ient to produce all the effeCts held forward by the Noble I., , rd's plan, without requiring the ad ditional loans %hid' the prefent fytiem would render neeeffary. lkt wifhted to Keep the War Taxes entirely out of his fyitem, and leave them to expire (as ori °litany in.cmled) at the end of the war. Betides ori ginally great advantage in the plan he propofed, as con tradiainguiflied from that of the Noble Lord, it would prevent the neceffity of exceflive loans. Under the itlan of the Noble Lord, although the annual loans began with the moderate fum of 52,000,cc01. yet they were to increafe to the enormous am , trot of 32 millions, (fir:mid the war continue) which would be a firm fo great as to disturb completely the money market, and produce the moll ferrous inconveniences —The modifications which he would propofe would not only relieve the money market from that danger, but would alfa lave a considerable deal of expence. Without abfolutely propofing his modifications for the entire periol of twenty years, he would fay that it they were adopted for nine years only, confider able benefit mull refult to the public, and at the end of that period, Iviii.itlers would be able to judge whe- ther it was probable that the greater part of the re maining eleven years would require a war or a peace criablillunent. If all this period fhould be a period ' of war, then certainly on his ftippofition, fame ad ditional taxes mull laid on—but if peace fhould t •ke place, then there would be no occafion for ad ditional taxes. If on the one hand his plan would tender it neceirary to add two millions a year to the taxes—on the other hand, it mull tlidered that the intereft of the debt which would be contraeted by thole fupplemental loans, would be much greater. By the plan which he had the honour to propofe, the loan would never, in any year during the whole period, exceed fifteen millions, whereas by the New Syllem that was propofed, it was to in creak regularly from twelve millions to thirty•two. 1 - le therefore confidered, that thole two advantages of keeping the loans within a moderate compafs, and preventing the mortgage cl the War Taxes, were odvantagec far more than equivalent to the inconve• uience of finding two :'r three millions of additional taxes in the period of loch a number of years. He' deprecated the fyllem of railing money by thole' fupplemental loans which had been propofed.-- He was very anxious not to appear to give any vexatious oppofition to the plan of the Noble Lord, and therefore very loco after it was Rated, he had put him and the Houfe in poffeflion of the general outline of the objeClions which firft firuck him : but when it was confidered that the Noble Lcrd had had many months to confider and mature his plan, hut that he had only one week to confider of it previous to making his objections, it was by no means furprifing that he was not perfectly prepared to dif cofs the plan in detail. He had begged of the Noble Lord a continuation of the tables of calculaticns, for certainly he had had no time to make detailed calcu lationc, according to the general view that he bad taken of the fuhjeCt. It would be too much to call upon Parliament formally to fanetion to complicated a fy Rem upon fuel] a flight confideration—for, if in the colt, fe of a year or two, they fhould be forced to depart materially from the plan now propofed to them, that abandonment of it would be attended with tome lots of honour. It would be laid tbat they had, like children, haßily adopted what they were after wards obliged to throw away. He therefore would with that the Noble Lord would call fcr whatever fum of money the exigencies of the public fervice night require, in order to give the Houle full time to confider the plan. He would (till rather %Hit that he would, for the prefent year, borrow the eleven millions that he confidered fuflicient, on the Confoli dated Fund, and leave a year to confider of the pro priety of adopting or rejeCting the new fyflem of Fi nance. For his part, he was of opinion that the data of the Noble Lord were fallacious, as not being likely to equal the neceffary expenditure of the coon try. He therefore thought the propofed fyftem could not Taft more than a year. As he thought that the Houfe could not well negative the refolutions after they were agreed to in the Committee, he con fidered that it would be by much the heft way to ad journ the debate until the Houfe had a little more time to confider the fubjeCt He therefore moved, that the further confideration of the Refolutions he had propofed fhould be adjourned to this day fe'n night. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not feel it neceffary to make any particular reply to what had fallen from the Noble Lord, but wifhed to (late, that he had no objeCtion to any day that the Noble Lord might thick proper to namelor the dif cuflion upon his own Refolutions. He could not fee any argument againff the propriety of going into the bufinefs, immediately, that was fixed for tha tday.— He could fay for Government, that the prefent was n-a a queflion of confidence, but one that folirited the deliberate enquiry and ferious invefligation of the Houfe. The Refolutions were moved two or three weAs ago, and agreed to, and a fortnight was then confidered as Cadent time for the Houle to examine the principles on which they were founded. A farther delay had taken place from Wednefday Taft to the preterit day, and it was now propofed to bring in the Bill on Wednefday next, founded on the Refo• ' lutians, which did not arife out of financial embar raftments. Lord Cafilereagh's Refolutions were pofiponed till Monday next. Mr. LONG Paid, that fence the papers had been laid on the table, many perfons who were converfant with the fubjed had obterved that there was not fuf ficient time afforded for examining them, and %gibed the confederation of them to be poßponed for a few days longer. He fhould have thought, from the candour cf the Noble Lord, that this requeft would have been granted. Called upon now to the dircuf fion, he could not refrain from making a few °bier. rations. He did not objeft to carrying the principles of the Ref notions into effeft to a certain extent, but he did entertain confide:able objeetions to the puthing them to the extent propofed. No nun could think lightly of the financial fyflem perfevered in for Come years pall, who confidered it attentively ; but there might be Error in pertinacioufly adhering to a fyftem under difftrent circumftances. The queflion was as to the inconvenience of loch a mode of taxation, compared with others. If frefb taxes could not be laid on yithout inconvenience, what were our other refources ? Thefe were the War Taxes. He muff oiled to any plan f - ir twenty years. The Honour able Member went into Come calculations,and (hewed that various duties, loch as thole on tea and fpirits, would not keep up to their prefent amount at peace. The Noble Lord might remember, when the New Syflern was propofed at firti, that it met with much oppofition; and tome even Paid of it that it was not taxation, but confifcation. The Noble Lord calcu lated upon thirty two millions annually as fufficient to defray the expences of the war ; but he did not Teem to think of the probable depreciation of money. He then proceeded to notice the original principle of the Sinking Fund, and the departure from it in I 802. It was undoubtedly a Fund to be held facred ; but what were its objects ? Not merely to roll up, and accumulate for the extinguithment of the debt ; but to keep down the debt, and prevent it from becoming buithenfome to the public. The maximum was fistd at four millions. The alteration in t 802 was affented to by his late Right Honourable Friend— but highly as he admired his great financial talents, be felt difficulties in acceding to his opinion, which Rill remained unremoved. If the prefent plan were confined to five years, he Amnia give it his glint.— No tax then would have been wanted for three years. This part of the plan was popular and captivating— and he approved of it as a repofe from taxation, which might afterwards be retorted to with more vigour. But it was too much to call for the adoption of a fyllem for twenty years, in data fu uncertain as the probability that thirty-two millions would defray the annual war expencet. It was not poffible for him to go immediately into the Committee on fuch uncer tain grounds, and it was unbecoming the dignity of the Houle. Mr. TIERNEY obferved, that the chief objec tion of the Hon. Member was, that the plan was deviled for the operation of twenty years. Now the plan really did not tie up Parliament, but only held out to Parliament, and the country, and Europe, what might be done fix twenty years to come, if neceffary. Nothing in the meafure prevented the Haute from fhortening the time. But be had no objection to arguing the whole quellion to the fulleft went. It wa, adm;tred in all private converfation, and public difcalfion, by every body, that it was ltigldy iticonvetlielit to proprice new tarts at prefent, and there was a general dirpofition'to leave eff tax. ation for a time, it prairie ; and it was rightly oh• ferved, that this would be tound beneficial, (hoed we be obliged to refort to taxation again. It might he that War Taxes would not produce fo much after the conclufinn of peace. But this meafure did not cut up the future refources, but weed be the means of laying on future taxes to a farther amount. The whole principle of the operation was this, that within the amount of the prefent taxes, wars and war•loans might be fupported for a confiderable time ; but it never was imagined that Parliament was to he pre. vented from removing any of thefe War Taxes if expedient, and making good any deficiency by far ther taxation. Even it they did not produce fo much in time of peace, they would enable us to provide with greater cafe other impofitions. There was, he rirferved, too great a difpofition to fuppofe that the Sinking Fund was a boon to the Stockholder : it was nn Inch thing. The country gave an advantage to the Stockholder ; but that advantage was to be returned to the country. He never could admit that the touching the Sinking Fund was an injury done to the Stockholder ; but the notion had prevailed fo long, that there was great delicacy required in taking Reps the other way. He need his objections to the meafures of the Noble NTH - count in rBox, arid the prefent circumftances jnflified his opini ins. The fcheme had the great advantage of going on with out new taxes. The Hon. Member (poke of the de preciatiOn of money ; but in fa& there was no pledge that more than 32,000,0001. would not be wanted. But it was a priAid fad to (late to the country, and to all Europe, that we could raife thir• ty two millions a year fora length of time without laying on additional burthens. It mull be a fuljec‘t if alloniihment from one end of Europe to the other. It was poirible we might want more ; but there would be the ordinary mode of loans. With refpeet to fubfidies, they were ditlinft things, and mutt be regularly confidered, and had no particular conneflion with poflible future loans, which might be reforted to in cafe of deficiency of fupply. It was a great thing thus to {hew what the country could do; and no man would difpute, that, upon the principle Rated, thirty-two millions might be railed for twenty ye.trs. lie did not exaeily know what was meant to be deduced from the fuppofed depreciation of mo ney. He always mlderliood that the heft way to prevent that depreciation was to avoid heavy taxa tion. The prefent plan took the only wife and praai. cable mode of meeting circumftances, and hit off the happy medium between the different modes propofed or adopted at different times. He thought the Houfe fhould go at once into the Committee to examine the details of the queßion. The Houfe then went into a Committee, Mr. Hob houre in the Chair. Mr. ROSE was aware of Tome difadvantages in oppofing this plan. He had hoped that when the Noble Lord praifed his late Right Hon. Friend, he was about to propofe fomething fimilar to his plan : but it was rather the converfe. The Noble Vifcount (Lord Sidmouth) adopted his meafure relative to the fund, not from want of attention to his duty, for he, in a manly way, propofed new taxes. When Mr. Pitt originally propnfed the Sinking Fund, he limit ed it to four millions, and the excels was applicable to the Ways and Means, and he acted upon it to a certain extent, for in 1792 he added 200,0001. One great objection with him (Mr. Rofe) was, that the meafure before the Houle would not abfolutely, but in point of fad, tie up Parliament for twenty yeses. It might be repealed, it was true ; but his great ob jeaiou was that it was founded entirely on the War faxes. lie thought they could not depend poll tively upon the amount of Excite and Cultoms for ten years. The plan not only bound them for twenty years, but carried the fyflem to an extent extremely alarming. There was no difficulty in borrowing thirty millions, but he taw that they would neceffa lily be required for the public fervice, and that nol provifion was made for excels, which he found in the Taft twelve years amounted to three millions a year, and in the IA year to five millions, but which he would take at two millions and a half a year. What effect would that have with refpeet to fupplementary loans ? Gentlemen would perhaps think that the money market would hardly bear up againft this.— How different would be thefe confeqnences from the operation of the prefent Sinking Fund. The Hon. Member then entered into a variety of remarks, ten ding to fhew the effect of taxation on the different branches of the revenue. The Tea Duty was low ered by the Commutation Tax, and increaled the ar ticle from four millions to twenty millions of pounds weight. Our exports to China were So,oool. and now amounted to one million ; and the tonnage had increafed from five thoufand to eighteen thoufand fince the Commutation Tax. With refpeet to rum, before the Al, the duty was fix fhillings per gallon, and the confumption 1,342,000 gallons. The duty was reduced to four fhillings, and the confumption had increaled to 2,441,000 gallons. The duty is now eleven fhillings, of which three fhillings and fixpence are the war duty ; fo that the remaining duty is as high as before. Brandy was nine fhillings and fix-pence, and produced 754,000 gallons. The duty was reduced to eight fhillings, then to feven fhillings and fix pence, and now was as high as thir teen fhillings and eight pence. Britifh Spirits were much in the fame proportion. With rerpeCt to Goods and Wares, Sugar bore 32 per cent. duty, and a further duty of ts per cent. But planters could not pay thus in peace, and it was fo under flood when the duty was laid, that 25 per cent. was as much as they could bear, and that the difference in infurance, &c. in time of peace, would have little effect towards compenfation. The Wine Duty was not a war duty, but was made perpetual laft year, to put an end to the mifchief of certain fpeculations.— Ibis did not come under the Refolutions, but might he looked to in confidering the fubjeet, as the Wine increafed greatly in quantity by the reduaion. As to Goods and Shipping, he never felt more furprifed than to find them under the Refolutions, and could fcarcely and words to exprefs his aftonifhment. If Gentlemen recolleCted what came before the Com mittee of Trade, they would aetuallffuppofe that in certain articles of Linen and Cotton the Germans, particularly in Ituffia, had underfold us. If thefe duties remained after peace, it was worth while to confider how far they would materially affect our Cart ying Trade. In all the great articles, we thould lofe in our rev;nuc!. Mcafures had certainly been adopted for 1 4 ( ime years, to the great credit i,r th.ife who fuggefted and carried them into effeCt, sand they had been puthed as nearly as poffohle towards per. •feCtion : but he could not be fo fanguine as to erpeet any checks would be able to at!l against the efl e a, of Inch uncommonly high dtrit.s. A frnitggler could five himfelf by making one voyage out of tou r , and lie knew, in the county he lived in, the diffialty of counterafting them already. The Malt Duty, b e . fore the prefent, *ts fifteen pence ab a u i fli need i_ at A duty was propofed by Mr Pitt, in addition, „t three pence, to expire at the end of three years— but this was fo very unpopular that it was gives up at the end of the &II year, and the duty rem fifteen pence. In 1832, Mr. A.tidingtnn propof e d duty of one {billing, which was acqkriefced in, under peculiar circtintltances. A further duty of two fhil lings had been impofed during the war, as a war tax. This had not indeed diminifhed the confumption, but it had had bad effeCts in other ways. It had been held out that the income tax was to ceafe after the war; but he thought it better to retain a portion of that tax than to retain the additional duty on ma l t or at a ll events to divide the burden, which might be done even by retaining one per cent. of the Income Tax. If the Noble Lord's fyttem was fit to he adopted, he would rather mortgage the Income 'Fax than the War 'Faxes ; and every Gentleman who heard him would find that he atitually paid lets by that tax than lie paid by taxes levied merely upon confumption. Befides, all the Income Tax came into the Public Funds ; but the produce of the Taxes on confumption fuffered great diminutions. Gentlemen, however, paid, without complai i ig, greater Dims in this way, and dated to draw their purhniiings when the Colic dor came round to take the hard money not of their pockets. He withed the Noble Lord to de. liberate a little further, and to give more time to the Houle to examine into the details and confequences of fo new a fchemf t Was it langnage fit for a great flatefman, to recommend a new fcheme of finance, without looking fuels at the probability of events in a few years to come, a , the time he was endeavouring to tie up the hands of Parliament for twenty years ? The whole produce of the taxes he fliould take at 35,533 0001. ; againa which lie fhorild fit off the whole in:erett of the debt, amounting to 27,465,c0ct the Sinking Fund 1,230,0031. ; and the charges of the Confolidated Fund t,735,3331. making s a total of 33,433,3c01. in account agaitilt the Revenue. Then the inter ell of Exchequer Bills he thould take at 300,0001. and mifcellanies at 310,0001. He would Rate the Army expcnces at only two-thirds of Lord Sidmonth's peace ettahlifhment, without taking any thing to account for the charges of lag yea-, which brought on an additional charge of 600,0001. to be felt in our peace eflabliffiment. Thefe two-thirds merely would require a hum of 7,430,3331. He thould likewife take the Navy at the twoahirds, without rec koning any thing for the increafed charges in conic quence of the meafures of the Noble Lord oppofite, and which Amounted to the hum of 333,05001. The Navy account then would be 4,854,0331. The Ord nance he thould (late at 533,3331. The Militia was rather difficult to eltimate at prefent ; but he ffinuld Rate that branch of expence at 300,0001. Thefe calculations would make up a total of 43,718,c0c1. leaving a deficiency of revenue to the amount of 8,218,3331. If we locked up our sat taxes, even though they thould be produelive, we thould find ourfelves, at peace, under the neceffity of providi-ag taxes to the amount of eight millions. Was it then prudent or difcreet to prefs this new fytteni? He conceived that he had Rated a falid ohjettion to the new plan. It was upon the foundation laid doers by Mr. Pitt that this new fcheme was railed. The way in which he nurfed the revenue was, by watch ing carefully the produce and variation of the taxes. When he came in, there was an unfunded debt of 27,000,0001. and the three per cents. at 52, and in three years he In managed the Finances, as to be able to propofe the Sinking Fund, which was the baits of the prefent great plan. In 1784 and 1785 he did rot lay on new taxes to a greater amount than r,i00,0001. and thole very taxes in 1803 came to 55,333,3331. and they were then confolidated with other taxes. His own advice had been to fee, when ever peace arrived, what taxes could remain, and to take all effeetnal Reps to check fmuggling. These were three errors v hich he ward the Noble Lord to confider, wiling from thefe circumttauces : that the expenditure on an average of twelve years. had exceeded 3,000,0001. per annum. Secondly, That the Loans would not pay themfelves off, as the Noble Lord had fuppofed; and thirdly, that the war taxes would not be produCtive in time of peace. He declared folemnly, that he had no with nor intention to embarrafs the G( verament ; but he thought that the mode they thould adopt would be to try oneyear only. He had no objeCtion to go one year without taxes, by borrowing. But he mutt continue to think that to tie up thefe duties in the prefent way, would he in the highell degree imprudent. He did, there- fore, earneilly and anxionfly implore the Noble Lord not to prefs the adoption of his plan with In mach halle. What benefit could he promife himfelf from thus tying up the hands of Parliament ? He wifhed Gentlemen to confider this matter fully. Every el• porting merchant, and every manufadurer, earl Weft India Planter and merchant, and the DireBors of the Ealt India Company, were deeply interetled in this important fubjeft. The Adminiaration in which he had on office, never had laid a duty 03 Eastern traffic that the EaR India Company did not nbjeet to : bet here the Noble Lord was laying or: with a heavy hand an additional ten per cent upon tea. Nothing was more aveife from his mind, than to embarrafs Government. The Noble Lord at die head of the Trearury was not more defirous of keep ing up the revenue than ht himfelf was ; and he gave Minifters credit Mr their difpolitinn to do fo but he mutt confider, that more time thould be given for the genetal coitfideration of this new and impar• tans The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQIIER. felt extremely anxious that the merits of the pith which he had the honour to propofe, as all() of the objeClions which had been made to it, thould owet the fullea difctillinn in that Houle. He was ans:i ous that the Refolutions which he bad Pr'r fr thould be this night agreed to in the Committee, bot that would give him no particular advantage in the difcuffion, as there would be many fubfcquent period' in which it might be debated, both in the P rip ` iPle and in detail. He allowed that the Right Hon , Gem: tleman (Mr. Role) had Rated his caj:Ctions wi•4 v