Star. — London, England, 1816-05-10 00:00:00

w 1 77 • .; r~ ..isafami'airzwir:rrizocEEDlNcite . s .• .• • - SOUSE OF LOILDS,MAY 9. . . M ili-Ctoomittoo of Privileges, Width sat on the Bortiiwiek Peerage; whoeises were examined at ttte.Bar, - who proved the present ailment of that title to be the proper heir of the last lealtoar.—The Committee thee adjourned to Tuesday next. The Meier& of CHOLMONDE.LEY reported the Answer of his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, to the 4ddresses of alie•Houte, nn the aecent Marriage, o( alit Princess Charlotte with. the Prior Leorsici of Cohan. _ On the motion of Earl S r4fltidry.,*lleiritton Election ' Bill was ordered to bs reprinted, nei anamint of - iii inateint Inaccuracies in the present copy of the 891. ; , ~ 7. • Mr. Coss, front the Margate' Pier and Hrbour CompanY, bnaught Aip 'an AceOunt of the Receipts and Expendkure of the Ilt!ti C011)lially> ' ... . Esrl HAR ROWBY resented x Palace from Tiverton, pray ing that no additional ditty should bee unposed on Foreign Wheat La, tined. , . • The Oak Duty and the Tonnage Additional Duty Bills, were recd the third time and passed. The Wrought Goods MU was read the liecood time, and or dered to be committed. 'Tie* Lindahlps then adjourned till to-morrow. (this day). , . • • HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mi. MOLYNEUX presented a . Petition from the City - ami. Ceneetsy of Gloucester, aping the Leather Tax.—Laid as the Table. • . Beddoos were also presented from the Innkeepers of the aul f Comity of Souse*, et Bodatin, in COMM", egalosiJko 1 0' coko edUalveVnef eml arras tlga Tawas el Kent, air blew. cofttle•VoWeemoi t y in ompehlre, and of the County of Wad. ford, ageloet the• Lea er Tu. • General THORNTON p his motion relative to per- • erns protticated for Forgery on the Sank at England, to Thum - diy nett. . • : tleutions were presented front n-lashateAp praying an amend ment on the ()Wilkey Laws ; front the Innkeepers of the City al Limerick against Illkit Distillation; from Arbroath, in 4 co • land, •for amendment in the Distillery Laws; and from the Tan ' sera of Blackburn, in Lancashire, against the Leather 'fax.— Laid on the Table. Mr. LYT FLEFON presented a Petition from the Directors of the Poor of the City of Worcester against the . Leather Tax. The Petition complained of the Increase of the Poor of that City, add attributed it in a great 'degree to thc.heavy Tax on Leather. Latil ea the Table. - Mr. itivittc brought up Accounts of all Leather Exported from Great Britain for Eye years.--Laid on the Table. A Person from the African Company brought up s Accounts of the CoMpany for the year 1814. A Person from the Margate Connatty brought up the Andual Accounts of the. Pier and Harbour Duties. Mr. FRANKLAND LEWIS postponed tiU to-morrow denv idea the Committee on Agricultural Distress. Petitions were presented from Galway. praying for an alters. don of the Distillery Laws; from the County - we Mayo, platy log fur the protection of 4,ie Linen Trallat r ; ' awl from the Shoe makers of Loudon, Westminster, an Soutliwark, againt the ( l eather Tax. Mr. H. ADDINGTON !Dwight up an •Aecount of all Persons confined for Debt, and taken io Execution for Debt, in Eng Lind and Wales, within the last year.—Laid on the Table. The second reatliug of the Alien Bill was postponed „till us. morrow. HOLT INCLOSUIIE BILL. Mr. ROBERT WARD complained that the CoMmittee on the Holt Inclosure Bill had made its Report without having called the necessary evidence. The Persons having a right in the Commons to be enclosed, were to get compensation in Tithe-free Lands, but the Lands named for them, he had been informed, were subject. to Tithes to the Dan and Chapter of Winchester; he had, therefore, in the Committee, moved for an adjournment of a day. in order to sendlor the Clerk of the Dean and Chapter, to give evidence on the point, but was over ruled, tend the Committee made its i.etwart withenst any suf. fictent Information on the point. He now, therefore, moved for a revision of the Report. . Mr. J. P. GRANT defended the conduct of .the Committee. -They 'did not consider the evidence material, and they were bound to proceed aideout any unnecessary delay. Mr. GEORGE ROSE supported the motion.— , He complained, that Gentlemen came down to Com mittees, and voted without knowing any thing on the subject. • Sir JOHN NEWPORT asked, how the Right Honourable Gentleman and his friends, who gene.: rally came dowel to the House after the discussion of the. subject of .debate was over, .and always voted on one side, could complain on this point ? . Mr. G. ROSE explained. Mr. S. BOURNE was persuakd , that. the delay' mould be allowed in a.Court ofiJustics, and argued' .therefore that the Coalmines ouglU to lane granted; it. Private property ought not to bet injuriously die. posed of for the expedition of. a day or two. Mr: W. WYNNE justified the conduct of the .oontminee. . . . - Sir W. GA RROW thought that the subject was of great consequence to the character of the Home. Jf Cominittees of this House chose to, dispose of private property injuriously to the right possessors tatter than grant the delay of-a day or two, it was ;no wonder that calumnies should be raised against the proceedings of the House. The revival of the Committee. might be the means of doing justice, and 'therefore be should vote for it. Mr. P. MOORE spoke against the Motion. Sir J. GRAHAM never knew an instance when the revival of a Committee was refused, when the Committee tad been premnterelypst on end fa. The•SPEABER said, that many Bills had been put an end to in Committees. But it was open to any Member to move fore revival of the Committee. U he conceived it had prematurely or abruptly ter minated its functions. The question to• be consi dered here, was whether justice was likely to be pro moted by the revival of the Committee? . Mr. WARD replied ; and . • Mr. J. P. GRANT spoke a few words in explansr Lion, when the House divided, and the numbers were, For the Motion; 98—Against it, 59—Majority, 39. Lord G. BERESFORD informed the House, that his "Roptl Highness the Prince Regent had re—ived the Ad tress of the House on the Marriage us the • Princess Charlotte, and thanked dee House for its zealous congratulations. Lord STANLEY wished to know whether any decision had been come to with regard tot Memorial presented, about certain hole:es in: !Writhe:ter, which . .et one.ainse had been jnhabited.; and. paid Assessed Taxes, but which had been converted into warehouses; ' the memorialists were anxious 'to know whether the , bonus were still subject to the Assessed Taxes ? The CHANCELLOR of the -EXCHEQUER . . Could glee no posneve• answer, as the alibied wet • under the 'consideration of the Judges ; but t in his opi• .. won , the homes were subject to the Assessed Taxes. ' Sir M. W. RIDLEY had been informed. dent itottses,bnirinioucobeen inhabited. and having bean since convened into warehouses, were still assessed. Colonel WOOD gave Wien of a maim fora • " . S • Committee-of Inquiry Into die @Medially!' al wina!s: log ibe Side of Game. - near nut ;IT nIAW.CE, • Mr. HAM ERSLEY withed,to ion* whithei a was Theintention of his Majesty's Government to enter into' l aity neguciation with the Govern ment of France with respect to the large debt of 1$ millrons. due from that country to this, and when any step would be taken on the subject. Lord CASTLEREAGH was not prepared to inswer. HAMERSLEY gave notice of a motion on the subject for the 18th instant. , . LEATHER TAL taItdiILTHORPE rose to call the attention of the House, 'pursuant to his notice, to a most impor tant subject. It might be imagined that he had par ticutarly taken it upon himself to bring forward a motion relative to the Leather Tax, because his con stituents were * , to a great degree, interested -in the manufactures which chiefly consumed that article; and, indeed, in the manufacture of the article itself. He should now state to the House his sentiments on the subject, on that account, more, initnedfately ; but, if he had not been connected with such a body of men, though he should not have brought it for ward. he should have given any motion that might have been made upon it his fi rm support. The repeal of the Leather Duties. for which his motion wit lee tended, would be most beneficial, in his opinion, not only to'his constituents, but to the couotry at large. The very common use of the article, very.little alb tered by circumstances, almoit always insured a trade in it with some pot of the world; and the suporici iity of our manufacture was so great, that when we could once inert other countries upon any thing like an equality, we were sore to command the market. l In the home market it was one of the greatest branches of trade ; it was required by almost every branch of agriculture, and the poorest labourer could not do without it. The number of men employed, and the great extent of capital that was engaged in die leather trade. ought to be recollected. He had understood, and he believed his information was cor rect, that •there were no fewer than 500,000 men. employed in the different processes in Great Britain; atid not only the number of those employed in the trade should be considered, but their description. kt should be remembered, that great number; ion had /teen inoirned,and rendered unable to maintain them selve bi any other means, earned for-themselves and fanifliei a comfortable subsistence. Mr. Brunell, a gentleman who had a very large establishment, had, he believed, no man employed under bim whored not lost a limb in the service of his country. , trade, however, was, in all its branches, in the very lowest state of depression, which might have been "perceived by the numerous petitions against the Tax which had been presented andlaid on the Table, to the accuracy of many of Ate statements of which he could himself speak, and which he considered re quired the greatest consideration. In many parts of England hundreds, nay thousands, were thrown upon their pares from having no means of subsistence, I and amongst them a very considerable number were connected with the leather trade. It be .should be able to prove either that the Leather Tat was a great cause of the distress, or that it would give consider able relief, or that the mode of collecting it was isa-J proper, be should, he thought, have made out a case sufficiently strong to justify the House In k ruting in favour of his motion. That the trade .did labour under *II considerable.depression wa. certainly true, though ill trades were more or less depressed at pre ' sent, it was very difficult to chew what was the exact cause of the depression.- His arguments would be principally directed to the additional duty on leather laid on during 1ff.12, and not to the whole duty lbefore that time. Before 1812 the duty had been 4051,000 and upwards, but since the laying on of die additional duty there had bees a -great propor tionate falling off. The great question should be. whether the abolitl is of the Tax would not be a very great relief to the country by promoting a much greater cOnsumpticn of leather than there was at pre sent. The depression which he had mentioned must have s Ina great measure, arisen from two causes, !rem-the loss of the army CHM ACtS 9 . and from the great i fidlinroff in the export trade. It . could not be expected that the trade could be so well occupied from diesame quarter as it bad been by the army edit:est ; but that loss might be greatly remedied, lend the export trade revived, by the immediate or early abolition-of tho Tax. If it was taken off, the price of tanned leather, he understood, would be re duced 6d. per lb. and the average price of shoes fOr exportation, would be Is. per pair less than was Dow paid. If, then, such an alteration would be nude by the discontinuance of a tax like the Leather Tax, what might it be expected would be the result ? He , supposed that the export trade would be materially increased, and the trade in general would be greatly benefited. What had been the state' of the trade for some time ? Up to the time of laying on the addi tional duty it had been increasing ; since, it had been constantly upon the decline. He no* cattle to a most important part of the subject, the mode in which the Tax was collected..--(llear, In his opinion, these economical arrangements &mid] always be pursued by which the greatest sum couldl be collected with the least possible expense to Ge refitment, and the least public inconvenience; but when it was proved that any tax was injurious to the ' particular branch of trade on which is was levied, that tax ought to be discontinued, There were a number of restrictions in the levying of the Leather Tax which were particularly injurious. One prevented the tan ner from being a currier, and prohibited him from !shaving, dressing, Ste. his own skins: from this a great deal of inconvenience occurred from the alter nate wetting and drying, keeping in pale water in stead of tan, &c. which might have been avoided.-.- Another restriction related to the stamping . of the bides. No man was allowed to sell oat to piece, of leather in a tanning state unless stamp& Stamping on the raw bide, he thought, might be' of Much [area .m ter use than the present practice of stamping ems under the tanning process. The sk ins, when taken out of th e limes, were in such an uniaillbed and geintindus state, that the stamp could. not be conveniently applied, and duty were much damaged by the removal. There was a third restriction, - pre venting the tanner from removing any part of the substance of the bide which he tainted,: that had been made during the time of Queen Anne. wino the Leather Tan bad bee first eafoccad. Every thing • • • 'was against the restrictiOns, and be tould not per bow the House ciseld Jeep them up, under 'pretence'whatever ; and if the restrictions were once doge away with, the Tax would of necessity be relin quished, as very little revenue indeed would accrue from it. The Noble Lord then proceeded in shew that the Judge had not increased in proportion, as expected. It was rather precarious to speculate upon what would be the profit; of a tax at any future pe riod ; but he could almost *encore to say, that the Leather 1 1 4 Z world be very unproductive.witen lie p i l ea payments were made up. Alter several= otbail r pertinent Observations, the Noble Lord concluded by e sl “ That leave be given to bring in a lIM to repeal tha l bitties es Leather." Mr. W. SMITH wished it to be understood, that g supporting the Motion of the Noble Lord, he meetly wished the abolition of the present Tax ; for be could not but think that a tax might be taken less inconvenient, and that would subject leather manu facturers to fewer grievances. He was fully aware that it was a dangerous thing to abolish a tax, with out mources to make up for it, that brought into the revenue 5€690,000. Something might be done for the trade with respect to the restrictions which the Noble Lord bad mentioned, and which were certainly •in a great degree injurious to the trade. It was not very long since the Right How the Chaocellor of the Exchequer had lamented to him the necessity there was for so mu& trouble and expense in the collection of those duties; and now he had an opportunity, he should cake the liberty of stating what he thought might be done to avoid such trouble anetstreket pose. The duty now procured from the Leather Tax was £525,00() and upwards ; he should,. for the sake- of argument, suppose that it might be 5e600,000. He should propose that a duty of Si. should be levied on eases hide, raw and unstamped, that might be recei ved by or issued from any tanner. There Might be a penalty of sg2o or £3O for the offence of attempt ing to evade this duty; and he could not see that many would smuggle skins to save so small a sum, at the risk of such a penalty. The somber of Bra lash hides in general tanned, he believed, amounted to two millions, and the foreign hides imported to about 900,000; he would call the whole three mil lions.. The House would sce that a large sup might be collected in this manner, even at 2s, per hide, and u - -hide consi derably The bides as ,s. per , very larger. could not be so easily concealed as other artkles,:and he could not seewhy it would not be a very practi cable mode of increasing the revenue . He: hoped the restrictions would be taken off, as they were, to say the best of them, very vexatious. When they were once abolished, a tanner would have much greater liberty, and be might evert curry his own 'hide.— (it laugh.) There was at present a considerable mo. nopoly, he believed, in the tanning trade. The total number of tan-yards in the kingdom was about 1700, many of which, he bad no doubt, wished things to re main as they were, because there were less competi tion, and there profits were more secure. Ile thought it would be greatly to the benefit of the trade, and contrite ite to the general diffusion of capital, if the tan-yards were more numerous. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER complimented the Honourable Member and Noble Lord ori the able manlier in which they had spOken 'on the Leather Trade, though much of their infor mation was of a local nature. lie thought that, considering the difficulty of the subject, they would have acted more properly had they contented them selves with moving for a Committee Co inquire into the present state of the Laws relating to Leather.—• It would be seen, that it WAS not the policy of his Majesty's Ministers to abandon any tax like the 1.41. M ther 'fax, from which' so large a portion of the reve nue was procured. Such a plan as the Honourable Member bad proposed tor•the levying of a duty 011 hides had been betore suggested; but a Committee .which had been held on the Tax did not think it would succeed. The present distress arose more from the reversion of prices than any other Circum stance; and he could not exactly see hoar the Noble; Lord could fi nd that the leather manufact urers were Most distressed, when he had allowed that there was a very.great distress pervaded the country in every branch of trade. The Right Honourable Gentle man, after a variety of statements, in which he en. deavoured to shew that the duties had not so mate rially diminished in proportion since 1812, as the - Noble Lord had wished to prove, concluded he mov ing, "That a Committee be appointed to consider of the Laws relating to the Manufacture of and the Duties on Leather. Lord COMPTON expressed his intention of voting in favour of the Motion of the Noble Lord. The distress might have arisen from an increase of supply, or a diminution of demand ; but there !rid beett increase of supply, apd it would be consequently found, that it.had resulted from a diminution in the demand. His Majesty's Ministeis had said that they did not want to subject tanners or leather manufac turers to pecuniary inconvenience by the restrictions. Was not loss of turd pecuniary inconvenience ? Was not wasting materials in trade a pecuniary inconve nience ? 1 lie Right Honour able Gentlpman seemed* to have no objections to the Committee; but it ought to be remembered, that he himself had con sidered it needless to have a Committee, on account of its being so late in the Session. • . The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained. Mr. CURWEN had• been directed by his Consti tuents in Cumberland to represent the decrease of their trade, which was - principally in leather. He agreed with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that it was diffiCult to supply the financial demands of the country, and he was unwilling to give up a profitable tax.; ,but when the Interests of .so.large a portion of the cqnsgrunity werkso seriously .injured, le. mua,, , it the Noble Lira. persevered, ; vine for his ntotiori. '• Mr. ROVE observed, that the Noble Lord* bifitifl LiAto.if o ci o idkrotitptoo) bad' state'!, that giiin g up v-yerF woutd*be beneficial •to: theVpublic revenue; bat it would require i some-coosideration to disci:over the truth of this ppsition. He himself :had discoufsedwith well-intormed people ' ,and there cer tainly was a difference of apidioa On die subject ; he thought it very proper that souse inqtdry should be made, and that the proper anode would be to appoint a Committee. • • Mr.'TfIORNTON thought it cfatiseytnis to repeal a tar which produced 000,00 . 0 a-Year:. he:Considir ed the treicat depression of the trade in a treat. Mee- sum atfillutable to the cessation of detnano . accoutrements : upon the whole, he should dined to vote for a Committee. Sir J. YORKE should *vote for a C. though he did not see that the prices of fell in consequence of a tax being repealed ; did riot think that, if the present Were repeal e d, should walk in cheaper boots and shoes. Mr. THOMPSON complained of the _ _ mid observed that the tax fell mest unequal, b P l 6°T .the m po l %n w d ho W w h or ile e h th e e iv M y a fi n hoi o s i I P a a sh Y s l ion n k T in , s in hik r eigth it-. P w it er iaP em si a g ri l i m h o i s if t e esc i h a ig p l e i d lr vik i tiiiibl ia l gk ta l th — e A te g • n a t i ; n er% th r n ' e r. for the coarser manufactures; that were put out ' use by an arbitrary impost. Out fishermen ea us t c :. sea.borses (laugh) with thick rough bark of en elm, but the tanners paid 12d. a pow, and therefore the skin was little used. H e h a d N ei told by a tanner, they could not tan asses' hill (langh)- . -becituse there was a duty of 12d. a pot(' Sr. bear-skins.—(Laugh.);-He was these matters would be sent to a Committee. tanners would be glad if they could pay se much a hide, before any process was to nmenced, an' thea . they would save the duty on refuse leather, ea wi ,; t4 the loss was often great, particularly in shavint.-. (Loud laughter.)--The canners had complained to the Excise on this subject, but the, 644 tin b e t ,. redress except evi4tliorn the Exciseman, •who • baps laid 11614 of' Yotirbide:—Ct'eah of Ohe man had been delayed at the Custom limn, because elere had been a distemper among the hom ed cattle in Doi end I 14 hi .ter., --__e cou- ..e sorry it some relief were Lot found for all these grievances, and should therefore support the inettet of the Noble Lord. Mr % CARTWRIGHT thought that the revenue would be improved by removing the restrictions; and allowing a free trade. A Committee did sit on this subject two years ago, and the evidence went very strongly against the restrictions ; it would, therefore, be loss of time to go into a Committee now I he ens perhaps a little influenced in what he said by the is. structions of his constituents ; and though no friend to the doctrine of instructions, yet where local in. terests were concerned, he thought they ought to be attended to. His object in supporting the a roper, Tax bad been, that other taxes might be repealed, and be should nOvtiuppart the present motion. Bin BROOK expressed his intention to vote for going into a Committee: W.. PHILLIPS was against a Committee. 'Till the Tax had been imposed the trade had been intro sing ; it bad decreased ever since, sad was at this Moment declining. The restrictions were highly ob. l jectionable ; they prevented currying, and impaired the 0;114 of the manufacture. Our commerce sods South America was greatly diminished ; the poor suf. fered under the tax, and . the agricultural interest is a great degree ' • he therefore thought the House Unglit to acquiesce in die motion of his Noble Friend, unless the Chancellor of the Exchequer would state, that his object was to relieve the trade from restrictions. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated, that his object in a Committee would be I. see hove to raise a revenue on leather withetut the aid of reetaicticins, and be should go lam the Committee .eritheversy wish, to accomplish such an object.- • • Loid MILTON stated. that he sat on the former Committee a month, and it was then found that time was no mode of raising this revenue on leather out having recourse to the restrictions. The pe n Ito be applied to for information on the subject must be the Commissioners of Excise, with whom theCLUF cellar of the Eichequer bad daily communication; be must, therefore, kuow that the reurietiens coed not be dispensed with: If the Commissioners *old have suggested any other mode, he wtvald (truthless have mentioned it: in proposing a Committee, there fore, he acted, not with a view to any real iaquity, but merely to lull the petitioner and the House into security, and to take advantage of the cOntideace it. posed in his premises. The Noble Lord then it. peated ..and concurred in the arguments adduct/ against' the ter by the Noble Member for Northampten. It was the duty' of Government to see if theyeouht nut, by encore/raging the exportation of this.asaiite, replace theldse•which hadf been occasioned hyrthe n. storationad peace. He thought that the Hotgleagel sufficient evidence before them, as the Report cif tia twitter Committee consi..led of 150 folio pages ; lota he should, therefore, suppai t the motion ut his Nobie 'Friend, which was likely to produce Mae puma good Lhan the appointment of a stew Committee: Mr. LUSUINGTON said, that the (miner Coro. mittee had not been vatted upon to give any opinion, but merely to report the evidence to the House. From the returns which had been befwe Koala -mein, it was quite clear that, since the duty had b:co doubled, .the revenue had increased in equal proper don. He considered; therefore, that, as a muter of finance, this tax, which produced no less than A'650,000 a •year, deserved the most serious cousi• deration of the House. It was a tea that had exiev.l fees great somber of ye.sre. aunt wait incritiaspas tially distributed over tee whole centmunity• thought that the statement which the Noble Lent had made, with respect to the difficulties natter seta.n die manufacturer laboured; had been a little eye Berated. From his own itiquirieion the subject, (.401 he had teken some pains to arrive at the such ) did not believe that the distress w as so great. lad the tax was increased, the price of hides had lam dit least 25 per cent. and tie was not awire that the Pb' lie in general had any zeal grennJ for complaint. fie should, therefore, support the amendment of his Rialit Hon. Friend. Mr. ,ETHUEN said - a few words in favour d the meow,. a CSoiimjmOititteeN il N o E u W il P o O nl ß y ' oec. a rCon tion ceiv c ri ela t y h . at .n tn i g i, i , n e t s s , was alreitlf.in possession ot• all the information that could lie gieelf On the subject ; arid, for this recto, he left hrinself bound to vine for the originalettetein n • Mr: - MA RYATT said,' that nothing could be more rninous.than the existing Taxes on Leather• - ; The necessity eat giving relief was clearly adMittel by the Chancellor of the Exchequer; by the amen ment which he had proposed ; the ,only difference ttf %violent was as to the best enbde that ought to he adopted: He thooghtthatThet could not altogether abandon so large a portion of the rever.de, but they -should take off some of the restrictions which 'were irtore burthensome to the: Manufacturer than the to itself. in that part of 11,4 tounuy v:ll:,ch he cite be I I i 'lodtaft'dtbe.al I. Cammitte t ;. things eveel - id ed ; and b e 1 tpealed, Wei • • testrict r ' Kin ally ; th i pt 11111 1g for than lit, ow r