Star. — London, England, 1809-03-18 00:00:00

.46 bid enough in the beginning,:not a man on the. %%•- ide almout denied he had an thin to do o , ros ites Th %ti g - di i t . ey all st st b hi aid bend until they saw g the po !amour excited, and then they came forw ar d. Pl!'ar ow c a • ts go r d ) I tell you it is a fact. Why one man to whom I at first said it was a bad case, 1 ° ., - , r - T near knocked me down. (Loud laughter.)— Z ou nds, Sir, said h e, what !do you think I h ave au y thing to do with i t ? lam of opinion we ought t o acquit the Duke of York. He is a great military character : he has carried our arms into all the rest of die world, and under him the army has flourithed. Will von then hunt him inm the World with an har poon stuck in his back ?" (Much laughter.) An Ho ;warble Baronet opposite has talked of " dissolution." hope he hdid not mean a dissolution of Parliament. I n deed I'm inclined to think he meant another kind o f dissolution , from an Honourable Member whom he seem ed to have in. his eye. But, Sir, if he did mean a dissolution of Parliament, I trust in Con I s hall be returned (loud laughing) for doing my duty. (Ito, hear.) I have said, Sir, I have been annoyed uc utters—it ought to be made a misdemeanor. He ,:ho does not like England, d—n him let him die.— ( on this hut expression much confusion took place in the g a g, and it was followed by loud cries of Order, Order, Chair, Cksir.) Mr. FULLER said he h.l heard the expression given as a toast, and did not think it was disorderly; at all events, he did not mean it to be so.—(Hear, ioar!) He voted apinst the Amendment. L or d A. HAMILTON, Slr,W. MILNER, and Sir G.. WARRENDEIh spoke against the question. Lord MORPETH gave a decided negative to the A m endment, as be was of opinion that the charge of irru ption had not been made out. A Member -( whose name we could not learn) de clared it as his firm opinion, that 'nothing short of the total removal of the Duke of York Would satisfy ei therthe House or the ,CoikaWyer,(Mier, Near !) Mr. TRACEY expressed his _sew ,bat soy mis represention had gone abroad, that this enquiry was not levelled against the Duke of York, but the Fa mily on the Throne. He thought the Honourable Mover of it deserved the thanks both of the House and the country.—(Hear, Heat- I)—From the letters which had appeared, and from the information which Colonel Gordon had, given to the Duke of York, he must have known that Mrs. Clarke did not act as she did gratuitously. ,He would, therefore, vote the Duke guilty of these corrupt practices, as alledged in the Amendment. • Mr. BANKES assured the Holum, that he 'would trespass but shortly. upon Its patience, and if he had.' sot felt that the proposition of din Idon.:Baronet bad placed the House in a sitiatien of grast embarrass Trent, he should have fuieborantq .oter hintself on tl:e present occasion to its attentiOn. The worthy ILirop,:i, instead of proceeding to give a direct ne-. •4 ative t the Resolution of the Chancejjor , of the E.x thclocr, -consistently with the tenor of his arr. meats, lia:1 on the contrary pursued a course which precluded those who agreed in a part of the original !tem q u ion, and differed from-, part of it, front vot iw.; riling to their conviction. He had to com plain, theldore, that the Amendment of the worthy Baronet had placed Gentlemen who thought as he did, in a situation of such difficulty- and dis. tress, that they knew not how to vote. (i/ laugh). There was nothing ridiculous in the observation. The Hiiisonrable Baronet disapproving of the Resolution, ullielt stated that there was do ground to charge cor ruption upon the Duke of York, ought, to be con sistent with himself, to have given it a negative ; but instead of that, he proposed as an Afnendment the direct contrary Resolution. Let the House' but re ' tiect, in what a situation it would be placed by this proceeding. If they should negative the Amend nent of the worthy Baronet, they would be necessarily. cliliged to affirm the original Resolution. (Nei, Rs, r7i) He insisted, that such would be the case; and to c:lew, that: he had not made the assertion lightly, appealed to the Chair, I whether on mentioning his to the Speaker, he had not his authority for the , atement be had made. The Amendment of the vorthy Baronet went to fix the Duke of York with both corruptionand connivance ; and considering the different opinions which were entertained on this sub ject,he must say the inconvenience of such an Amend ment was extreme. - He had clearly understood his Right Hon. Friend to mean by:his statement this night, but still more clearly by what he had said on a former night, that nothing hthher was to be done judicially or criminally by the House. But though the House was not to adopt any further judicial mea sures, nor to follow up the businets criminally, by bringing the party to a trill, did, it follow that no other proceeding wasto.be udored ? For himself, he could not go the leng t h °Uniting, that some sort of soanivance or at st a violent suspicion of the. practices Which were going on, was not chargeable on the Duke of York.. The main objection which had been. urged against his proposition on a former night was, that it was complex and ambiguous, at a tine when it was argued by his Right Hon. Friend, that the House was bound to come to a simple de cision. His Right Honourable' Friend, however, had in his Resolution that night transgressed his own rule, and offered to the House a complex pro position. In the first part of that proposition he con curred, but he differed as to `the second. He had heard his Right Hon. Friend gate, that he considered t!le smallest degree of connivance at corrupt practices ;:nd corruption to he the same. If so then, why had re made use if two words, which, inbis apprehension, meant the same thing ?—(lisar, Heir, Near 0...-01 c.zruption, and corrupt participation,he was ready to acquit the Duke of York ; and it had been his inten tion, if not precluded by the course pursued by the Hun. Baronet, to move an Amendment to his Right Hon. Friend's Resolution, to (ark the word conni rnce, for the purpose of proposing afterwardi ano ther Resolution, stating, th a t Hi s Royal 'Highness vac guilty of that stet of connivance Which the evi dence established. • It was necessary -that the House should know what vote it was to come to. There rote two distinct parts in the resolution of his Right Ilan. Friend, according to coMmon'sense and. sound 4Fic. It must be obvious that there was a great dif rt%:nee between tonnivance and a participation In c: imp:ion. Connivance was defined by a be grerd:t ,. orl:y to concealed or dissembled know could not be the same as corruption, and con. "• , mently both were confounded in the kesatution. 7 — lit: believed his Right Hon. Friend to have been sin z. re, when he declared that the lowest species of con 4.7.inte was as high an offence as any degree of per. 1 canal corruption ; but he Must , such a confusion of moral distinguishing estimate of tude, Would be to the interest Was not, he would ask, personal more heinous and dangerous cies of connivance which amounted bled knowledge of a corrupt practice that WAS going on ? It was material for Gentlemen, particularly his Right HOn . Friend ( Mr. Bathurst ) who could not admit that corruption, and that species of connivance were the same—it was material for them to consider whether, by their adopting large, comprehensive, and covering words, if they should afterwards wish to carry-up some vote of censure to the Throne, they were not sapping their own foundation, and taking away the very ground upon which they stood ? If they should ac quit the Duke of York of all corruption, and conni, , vance at corruption, they would be precluded from 1 following up that acquittal by any resolution of cen- ' sure. (Loud cries of Question, question ! Withdraw with draw !) It had been imputed to him on a former night, that he practised a Parliamentary manoeuvre ; but that charge would, with more propriety, be ap plied to the proposition of his Right Hon. Friend.— Itappeared that his Right Honourable Friend perse vered in the conclusion of the proceeding which he had stated in his first able speech upon the subject, and that he was disposed not to follow up the pro ceeding by any measure upon what he called the rrio- I-al part of the question. That part of the subject', he had taken care to have introduced in the manner in which alone it ought to have been mentioned, in the amended address which he had submitted to the House. (Cries of Question, question !) The bare im. morality of the case was not a ground for Parliament to proceed upon. They possessed, in his opinion, considerable censorial powers ; but notwithstanding that powers of that particular description belonged to Parliament, it was not bound to act upon them, un less some political consequence was to have resulted 1 from the immorality to which such powers might be applied. It did not appear that any inconvenience in the discharge of the official duties of the Duke of York's department had resulted from the immoral connection which he had formed, though some of the appointments which had been solicited by his Mis; tress had unquestionably been obtained. (A genera ) cry of Question, question ! Withdraw, withdraw !) If the Resolution should be agreed to, there would re• main no case upon which to address the Throne ; and in order that Gentlemen, who approved of one part of it, and could not vote fur the other, might Have an opportunity of moving their separation by an amendment, he put it to the worthy Baronet, whe- ther it would not be desirable for him to withdraw his amendment ; but if the Honourable Baronet should still press his amendment, he should certainly vote against it. (Loud crier of Question,quertion.) r Sir T. TURTON observed, that it was impossible for the House to hear him - at all (he was extremely hoarse), unlUss it should be perfectly silent. The ar- Igumeuts of the Honourable Gentleman who put it to , him to withdraw his Amendment, had been directed against the complex nature of the original proposition. Not one of his' observations applied to his motion, and therefore, he could not consent to withdraw his Amendment. 1 Mr. HIBBERT (amidst loud and general calls for•the question) expressed Ms concurrence in the opinion that bare connivance was not equally blameable with actual corruption (here the uproar for the question wai so general and loud, as to drown the voice of the Hon. Member, who sat down is consequence.) Lord HENRY PETTY rose, in consequence of the manner in which the last Speaker had been treated, to call the House of Commons to order. From the palpable indisposition which the House manifested to discharge its duty that night, he thought it would be useless to continue the discussion, and therefore moved that the House do now adjourn. Upon the question being put that the House do adjourn, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER expressed his hope that the House would not concur in the motion of the Noble Lord, though at the same time, after the protracted debates that had taken place, it was not surprizing if some' degree of impa tience had been shewn to come to a decision. The SPEAKER observed, that it would become the House to consult its own dignity, by a more de agrons attention to the business under consideration. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER .4 contiaued. He trusted, that after the ability with which the debate had been - hitherto conducted, the Howe would not, at its close, shew to the country etid,.eti the world, that it would not persevere in the some temper which had been up to that moment ob served in the discussion. The question then before thit House was the most important, though not the whole of the case ; but unless the House should en tertain:it with patience, they would not get out of the . business with the same credit to which their past pro ceedings were entitled. The motion of the Noble Lord had not arisen from any wish to interrupt the 1 discussion, but had been forced upon him by the im 'patience of the House : he should not therefore pro pose to negative that motion, as he hoped the Noble Lord would withdraw it, and then he trusted that the House would pay that attention to the sentiments of gentlemen which the importance of the subject merited. .ord HENRY PETTY had no objection to with draw his motion, if the House was disposed to attend with temper to the discussion. Mr. \VI - I_ITBREAD meant not to object to the withdrawing of the Noble Lord's motion, but to urge to the House the propriety, • from personal con '.sideration for the Speaker, of abstaining from any course by which the fatigues to which he was sub-1 jetted might be increased. The motion of the adjournment being withdrawn, Mr. HIBBERT agaia rose and stated, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had told the HOUse, that : If his Resolution should be carried, they might vote .either for the removal of the Duke of York, or for his continuance in office. Now, he would ask, whether, it the House should vote that the Duke of York was not guilty of corruption, or of . participation in corruption, or of connivance at corruption, it would be open to the House to vote for the rem val of his Royal Highness ? He hoped that the Han. Baronet would withdraw his Amendment, and meet the Resolution of the Ri g ht 4onpur . able Gen sleman with a direct negative—but if i 4 - melt should be pressed, he sh4 . 4,feclic Ai*, to oppose it. . •... . , 4 . •1 I • sn • i after the exhausted state of the Miss 'Taylor's evidence, he shewed his ingenuity in unwilling to oar fdrnself t - endea vouring , to establish the fact of a conspiracy. .had"an iinportallt duty tepee ;14 first, he did not consider the note of much conse endeavour to do it in a few word - . quince, and contended that it might have been writ from those With whom he could ten by the Duke with very innocent intentions. 13ut easiou, but he had a bounden' when he wanted to establish the conspiracy, he endea must peffortri it faithfully. aroured to shew that the nine was forged, and boy shew had been said, that the Houle toiild not come to - any- sing the means. that isa such an event would be placed conclusion, uoglee evidence had nist been taken open within the reach of the conspirators, at the same time oath ; but he 'Would contend, that the House was that so little use was made of them, established in his bound to form its opinion upon the evidence that had mind - the strongest proof that the,note was no forgery. been laid before it. The conviction upon his mind He agreed with. his Right Honourable Friend as to was, that there vies no ground for a charge of peso- die distinction whichhetook between. different degrees nal corruption against the Duke of York, though he of connivance, and was ready to contend, that cur thought him completely guilty of . connivance. He ruption or deliberate connivance was not the same as defied any man to lay Us- hand upon his heart and blind connivance or resistel inquiry. This latter gay, that there was not evidence of this connivance, species of connivance was not equally criminal, but the course of the • proceedings. 'The testimony it was such as to require the removal of any public of isay be as little as they might please entitled to ficer.--(Hear, Hear!) Having stated that to be his Credit ; but if corroborated by little circumstances opinion of connivance, • how, he would ask, could he travelling up step by step, there was not a person in -vote for the Resolution acquitting his Royal Highness the kingdom who would not think it the best evidence, both of personal corruption and connivance, when upon which a man might be convicted and hanged. there was not a tittle of evidence that could bear him If the evidence was not to be taken, dien they had out as to the latter. • Those who could pursue a con spent the last six weeks in a most foolish way. It teary course might be said in the language of a moral vas his opinion that they were booed to take the evi- Poet to dence as it was, and to come to some decision upon it. " Gulp down whole reasons in a lump, Tbe argument.founded upon an assertion, that the " And come to short conclusions at a jump." whole proceeding was to be attributed to Jacobins, ,'What would be the situation of the Hoose if they I was a weak one. Such an argument was calculated, should vote the Resolution of the Right Honourable to do mischief, by exciting what does , not exist. rt . Gentleman ? Why this—that whilst they had a con , was like. " talk of the Devil and luoll appear." It elation of his connivance at abuses, the highest officer was the duty of that House to proceed against great in the State would still continue in his situation.— ' names, if they should be found to have committed (Near, hear.)—Was it right that his Royal Highness great wrongs. He was attached to the Throne, and should continue Commander in Chief, whilst it was loved his sovereign as a Father ; but thought that ro ved that such practices-had passed before him ? the best way of supporting the Throne was by calling If the Duke of York ever - reflected at all, which he those to account, whom the people did not wish to sincerely believed he never had done, he would have - pull down because they are Princes, but whom - the put a stop to such corrupt practices. He would never people wished to make act as Princes. Having at. have lent himself to such a case as the recommenda tended diligently to all the proceedings, and maturely tion of a Doctor of Divinity from Ireland, or coin , weighed all the evidence, the result of the whole was mitted hiniself with respect to General Clavering, or it - grave and substantial conviction upon his mind, Major Tonyn ; the thing was absolutely impossible. that his Royal Highness was not guilty of corruption, He agreed with his Right Honourable Friend, that a though he felt it impossible to acquit his Royal High-. blindness and indisposition to make themselves ac-' loess of connivance. . quainted with unpleasant truths, Were the charac. F , - Sir C. BURR ELL mentioned something of an teristics of many men high in office. Therefore, .Irnplication.against the Accuser in this question by he should not vote for the Resolution. The Right the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He did not, how.. Hon. Gentleman now asserted, that there were no ever, mean to vote with the Honourable Baronet. grounds far further proceedings if his Resolution The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex- should bi agreed to ; but if there were no grounds planted, andentered into a distinction upon the words for further proceeding, what was to become of the "no grounds" and " there are grounds," as contained necessity the House was under, according to his argu. in his Resolution, and in the Address of the Honour- ment, to come to a direct decision, aye or no, gu il t y able Mover. or not guilty, unless that the House was only to b e Mr SUMNER expressed his intention not to vote allowed to fin,d for the acquittal ' He was aware that with the Honourable Baronet. He was for separat- the Right, on. Gentleman had frequently chan ge d ing both the charges, as the matter on which they his votes, not that he , would impute to him the design were founded was perfectly distinct. He was certain of catching thereby a' fey/ ,more votes, but that it that his Royal Highness must have connived ; but in had arisen front acCidental fh4n . ges in his opinions. It this- he did not mean to include a charge of that sor was impossible ter him to vote for the reselutipit, and did connivance, whic4 consisted in the participation it would be improper for the Bop - of its fruits. of equivocal or_ambiguous o mear Mr. 'WILBERFORCE requested to know of the potted that they ,should . * 31,, Honourable Baronet, whether he may not as wellhave openly, and the House, lei 'ppressed his general sense in an amendment to any credit by proving to the s putdit subsequent resolution of the Right Honourable Gen- duty, plainly, honestly, and uprii 4.leman opposite ? shut it out from. the House, that Lord HENRY PETTY thought that it was right lution would preclude them ft fee those, who felt it necessary to state the reasons which would havetheeffectof sec! - upon which they voted, to do so before the first divi- the future recurrence of such abu siono Whatever differences of opinion might exist on Gentleman; no doubt, might sal other subjects, he was sure there could be in that other head, that of improper int House but one sentiment of attachment towards the il- a Resolution of Censure might afterwards be brought lustrious family upon the throne, upon every princi- forward ; but no such thing had been proposed by pie, - every memory, and every hope of liberty here- the Right . Hon. Gentleman. But if the Right after in these-realms. It was• with extreme anxiety Hon. Gentleman did not think that his Royal High that he dissented from the proposition of the Right ness had been guilty of' corruption or connivance, the Hon. Gentleman—it was painful to him to be corn- proceeding he proposed was one of the most unjust ;gelled to give a negative, where it would be most description towards his Royal_ Highness. After the gratifying to him to give his support. It was to ex- House of Commons declared that his Royal High plain the grounds upon which he was induced to give ness was not guilty of corruption, of participation, : his negative to ale proposition of the Right Honour- of connivance, or of improper influence, the proceed able Gentleman that he had risen. The proceeding ing of the Right Honourable Gentleman was to go on upon the subject under consideration had been repeat- to brand his Royal Highness for a crime of which edly described by the Right. Honourable Gentleman that House could have no cognizance, unless it. was and others, but most ereoneomly, as a judicial pro- connected with some official delinquency.. He had ceeding. This was an opinion inconsistent with voted for the Amendment of the Honourable Gentle- Parliamentary usage, and not authorised by the man (Mr. Bankes) on a former night; because this forms, the practice, or the constitution of Parliament. circumstance had been introduced 'into , it in the only It was absolutely impossible for that House to resort way in which it ought to be introduced. But he to any juridical proceeding, or to bring this ques- would never consent that it should be introduced in tion to a juridical decision. If in the opinion he any other way. With regard to the vote he. should gave he teas in error, it was the error of the Con- give, he must say, that on the score of corrupiinsii. there stitution, which had not supplied the House with the was no ground of charge against hi s Royal lEfigh .oame requisites or the same s hackles as other Courts ness, but he could not express by his vote that there of Justice—which had not subjected them to the same had been no connivance, because it had been clearly ,coosequences cif a verdict, that it m ight affect the life or proved that an improper influence had been exercised. property of a fellow-sebject. He had said thus much Neither should he vote for the Ainendment of the in or* to bring the House to the consideration of this Honourable Baronet. It was but justice, howeVer, qifestietowith the same deliberate,cool,and considerate to the illustrious Person who was the object dt the. attention to the matter submitted to them, as belongsto vote he was to give that night, to state, that from all aludgeOraJury. But having said this, he would con- the information he had been able to collect, the re. tend•that his dot" as a Member of Parliament was not gulations made by the Duke of York had been hi g hly to punish an•individual, but to watch over and guard beneficial to the Army. .The Noble Lord concluded the public safety. In this view, he contended, that the by declaring, that he should negative the Resolution object of the proceeding then before the House was not and the Amendment. • • to punish the Duke of York,but to save and 'protect the The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER Public from the consequences of the abuses which the did not think the Noble Lord was well founded in the Duke of York may have permitted in his department, ironical reproach which he had thrown out against and which were the subject of inquiry. This was the him, for shaping his resolution in such a manner as' ground of his negative, because, looking to the whole to catch the greatest number of votes.H N e oe had 'only of the proceedings, and considering the evidence adopted an alteration in the phrase for the purpose o f which had been laid before them, he could lay histhe Noble. more clearly expressing his ideas. If Lord y hand upon his heart and say, that he could not find • really felt hiMself in that painful situation that be had in that evidence any thing to warrant him in saying mentioned, he would be glad to'find that the grounds that the Duke of York had not connived at the abuses of his argument had originated entirely from i i r n or is k t a e that into which the House had been inquiring. As to the ) The Noble Lord said,he could find no grounds- character of the evidence, he agreed with his learned from the evidence to say that the Doke of Friend (Mr. Burton) that it was loose ; but loose as . not guilty,. The Address, however, did not go the it was, it was capableofbeing sifted as well as any other ; length of saying that his Royal ghness was n o t evidence. That evidence, however, had been so sup- guilty, but merely there was no ground for the ported, as to entitle it to credit, and he confessed the House to charge him with guilt. The Noble manner in which it was supported, appearedtohismind Lord had. said, that when the gßuesesotliuonti,onwhstaethteecir greatly to strengthen the whole mass ; because in every that there was no ground, he cou ld not avoid'sup instance, where it admitted of being supported by plying a word, and - putting the documents, it had received that support, and in no there was a 46 sufficient ground ? If the Noble Lord one instance had it been contradicted by a document. ' would then' so far give hiM Credit as to believe that --He had listened with. attention to the able and this was really what he meant by the Resolution, it 4Bingenious defence, which had beep made by the Right would spare his Lordship the pain of vo t i ng against ononrable..Gentletian (the Chancellor of the Ex- it. He hoped that, if the word o sufficient" were sup ochequer) ; s and the parts, which appeared so ingeni- plied, the Noble Lord would vote in favour of the 7ooi in themselves, when taken together, were contra- Resolution.. As to the word " charge," however, be • liettity to each other: When the Right Honourable • would remind the Noble Lord that when the Word entlerpan oommented on the note respecting . Major was mentioned, the whole beach upon Ivhich he .anck 00111 aßinst °IC " 041 "ti r -a I°lo* P.9l 3 toat: Thy 41to said that *ow ns u • '•`" • .• - • • • - •; / rriuttohserve how danger: nu Mr. ELLISON, al ral distinction, such an unt House, felt himself 1 the degrees of moral turpo, de 'fruit* ; but. he 1t :rests o f the community..-. 6 form,atufhe should en( personal corruption a much He was sorry to differ 'ems offence than that spe 7 not agree upon this ocl amounted only to a dissem. duty to perform, and Conse to vote any words cuing.. The public ex- qteir duty fairly and ; sure„ would do itself is thakit perfoTrned its )rightli t He coukl.not at to vetiifor (he 'reso- frqm, Any proceeding curing the public from )uses. - r6 Right fion. say, thqt there was an. influence, ender which .s ~.. ' r i r 1 .,. i