Star. — London, England, 1819-02-20 00:00:00

~. `.. 1 •. l# PARLIAMENTAR P PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUARY 19. • Counsel were heard at some length touching the Scots Cause, " George and Sir Patrick Walker so. Gibson."—To pro . *ad again on Monday. The Earl of Saassox and Earl Neuter took the oatba "id their seats. Mr. lita.t.ocx, from the Treasury, presented statements of the amount of the National Debt, in each year respectively, from 1804 to 1819 ; anti also of the amount of the Consolidated Fund far the last four years, with sonic other financial documents. pursuant to a recer.t order of the house. Mr. Jomisots, from the London Dock Company, presented an Account of the Receipts and Disbursements of that Corpora tion, from the 30th November, 1817, to the 110th November, 1818, and also a Report relative to the Progress of the Works. These Papers were ordered to lie on the table, and subse quently the Finance Accounts were, on the motion of the Mar quis of Lai/swims, ordered to be printed. Lord KEN YON observed, that their Lordships stood sum moned for Monday next, on a proposition, of his original intro duals:us, respecting a Committee of Inquiry on the subject of employing Children in Cotton NI anufsctories. It was however his wish, in consequence of die lamented indisposition of a Noble Earl, who took a prominent part in the discussion, to move to discharge the Order for summoning their Lordships, in order to renew it for Thursday next, when he was anxious that no fur ther postponement should take place, as such would be highly inconvenient to many of the parties ho had come up, and were prepared to give their evidence before the proposed Committee en the subjeci. The Noble Lord, having moved to that effect, it was ordered accordingly by the House. The Tnoenty Millions Eschequer Bills' Bill passed through a Committee and was reported. STATE OF THE PRISONS. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, seeing a Noble Viscount in his place, took the opportunity to call their Lordships attention to a subject which had been more than once before them. He meant that of an Inquiry into the State of the Prisons in the united Kingdom. He had understood from the No ble Viscount, on a former occasion, that he was wil ling to propose a Committee of that description. He sow wished to know whether things were in such a state that such a Committee as was spoken of may be speedily appointed? He was as desirous as ever to come forward on the occasion ; but as circum stances stood, if the Noble Viscount still retained his purpose, he should preferably leave the subject, in the first instance, in the hands of his Majesty's Go vernment: Viscount SIDMOUTH observed, that their Lord ships would recollect what he had stated on the sub ject towards the latter end of the last Session ; and the little prospect there was of having the necessary information got in, to any considerable extent, before the close of the year 1818. The whole of what was required from England was not yet returned ; but he should be able to lay' these returns, he thought, on the table on Monday next. The major part of what Was required from Scotland, had been returned. From Ireland the returns were very few. His Lord shirstated his intention on Thursday next to move that the subject and the documents thereon before the House should be referred to the consideration of a Select Committee. The Noble Secretary of State then presented some additional papers on the subject-- a Statement of the several Committals to the various Prisons, from 1805 to 1815, both inclusive, together with a specification of those convicted ; with some other relevant accounts. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE wished to be in-, sm.; ,n,l,..thpr ...Turns were to be made not only from the principal Jails, but from the various Pri- 1 sons appertaining to local jurisdictions. It were un-' doubtedly to be wished that all could be included, stud in the most comprehensive sense. Viscount SIDMOUTII observed, that at present b i g was unable to answer the Noble Marquis's ques tion. The requisitions made were for such informa tion as had been ordered by the House : but their lardships may rest assured that no effort should be wanting on his part to procure the fullest informa tion practicable upen the subject. The papers just presented were, on his Lordship's motion, ordered to be printed. r r r , SLAVE TRADE. The Order for summoning their Lordships being read, • The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, pursuant to his sake of yesterday, rose to move for fume further information, which he thought of great importa,nce,' relative to the above subject. On perusing the papers already before the House, he saw and felt it was in- . cumbent on their Lordships not to allow a moment farther tcS elapse, without calling for some explicit information from the Prince Regent's Government as to the certain points connected with this great na tional question. He would first particularly call their Lordships' attention to the effect of the Treaties con cluded with Spain and Portugal ; the more so when they considered the magnitude of the sacrifices we had made, and the amount of the sums given as the purchase of the acquiescence and co-operation of those Powers, in the abolition of the nefarious traffic in question. Those Treaties expressly provided, that within a definite period after their ratifications, which was in fold months after that with Portugal, and in two after that with Spain, mixed Commissions should be appointed to see those provisions duly carried into e ff ect an d cm-cher, chat a proper British naval force should be provided for the purpose of enforcing the execution of their provisions. Those specified periods *ere long since expired ; and what had been actually done on the part of the British Covernment towards carrying such stipulations ints effect, they had yet to learn. It was too well known, that since that period the Slave Trade had been carried on to a most alarming and unparalleled extent North of the Line, particularly near the Cape de Verd Islands. The Noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty perhaps could state why no vessel had been provided, as ex pressly stipulated in the Treaty, or with respect to the instructions given to masters of vessels employed. And the House should be informed why the mixed Commission was not sent out, though the interval in which their appointment should take place had long, since expired.. Notwithstanding the exertions made, and the sums expended on the part of this country.' this nefarious tratlic had increased to an alarmitg extent, particularly on the part of Spanish subjects. And in reference to those facts, it was proper the ncnise should be informed, not only what had been done with reference particularly to the Treaties ill question, but generally iu furtherance or execution of the Act.--The Noble Marquis then moved, agree: ably to his node of yesterday, for copies of all in structions issued to the Masters of Vessels, relative to carrying the Act for alx)lishing the African Slave Trade into &cat, and Copies of Orders for the ap. pointment of Commissioners, pursuits; to the Trea ties concluded with Spairt and Portugal for ,the same putpose. Viscount MELVILLE said, as he did not mean to oppose the Noble Marquis's motion, he would not detain their Lordships farther than while he referred to certain considerations, of which the Noble Marquis seemed rot to be aware. With respect to the treaties adverted to, though they were concluded some time ago, yet their ratifications were not received here till a comparatively recent period; and it should be con sidered that those Treaties could not be acted upon until they wete sanctioned by the necessary legisla tive provisions, and these were not passed until within a few days of the close of the last Session of Parlia ment. 4 3 rovisions were also necessary to authorise the Naval Officers to 'carry the right of search into effect. Until such Acts were passed, the necessary instructions could not be given en the part of Go vernment. With respect to the appointment of the Commission, upon which so mu i r p h stress was laid by the Noble Marquis, no exertion lks left untried to procure adequate and proper persons for composing the Commission. Many persons deemed eompetent were applied to, and notwithstanding handsome and favourable terms were offered to them, they declined the appointments. General instructions with respect to the execution of the Act were certainly given to the Masters of Vessels ; but particular instructions could not regularly be issued prior to the establish ment of the Commission. The Noble Marquis should also be aware how much in these cases depended on the conduct and co-operatien of Foreign Powers.— And with respect to the sending out of the Commis sion, that being, after the difficulties he had alluded to, appointed, he could assure the House no time would be lost in causing it - to enter upon the dis charge of its importarit functions. Lord HOLLAND expressed his opinion that the causes of delay assigned by the Noble Viscount were by no means an adequate excuse for the lung and re peated procrastinations which were suffered with re ' spect to due and vigorous exertions on the part of this country, to procure an effectual abolition of the abominable, the infernal traffic in questieu. The greater patt of last Session was suffered to elapse before the Prince Regent's Ministers had come for ward with the necessary legislative provisions on the subject ; and he could not think it was necessary for Ministers to wait until the Acts were passed, before they endeavoured to procure proper individuals to compose the Commission ; not only that, but it would appear that several months were suffered to elapse before the selection was made. He meant not how ever to say, that any wilful neglect prevailed upon the occasion ; but it certainly appeared to him, that the repeated delays which had evidently taken place were highly reprehensible, and these were the more to be deplored, when it was considered that several thousands of their fellow-creatures bad been immo lated in the interval of delay, and in consequence of this supineness, procrastination, and neglect. He trusted the House and the country would not relax in their endeavouts until the exertions of Great Bri tain and those other Powers who were disposed to unite in so great and good a work, had, as far as it was possible to effect tt, succeeded in totally doing away with the most atrocious traf f ic in question. The Earl of LIVERPOOL,wished by no means to protract the discussion, bat he could not avoid say ing a few words, chietly in consequence of what had fallen from the Noble Baron. First, with respect to the appointment of the Commissioners, it could not be finally done until Parliament had settled with re- gard to the remuneration. Next, the difficulty in selecting persons proper to execute the duties, was found greater than seemed to be imagined. It was not merely with reference to the amount of salary, for that, in a certain point of view, he thought a se condary consideration. And, finally, he could as sure Noble Lords no time had been lost in endea vouring to carry the provisions of the Act, or the sti puiations of the Treaty, into full and adequate effect. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE in explanation, enforced and expatiated upon those points which he had adverted to in the first instance, add which were touched upon by his Noble relative, Lord Holland. The question was then put, and the Motion (as the ground regularly of an Address to the Prince Re gent), was agreed to by the House, and ordered to be presented by the Lords with white staves.—Ad journed till Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, for thf sake of obtaining a fuller attendance to form Committees, moved in substance as follows ;—" Tbat the names of the Tim bers found absent on Monday, without leave. be reported to the House on Tuesday ; that those absent on Tuesday be reported on Friday ; and that all those absent on Friday, be taken itnethe custody of the Serjeant at Arms."—Ordered. On the Motion of the Czaticxxxoft of theoExcitentma, the House, at its rising, was to be adjourned till Monday next. Dr. Baukhead was coifed to the Bar, and being sworn, was I examined by the SPIAIMZ, as to the indisposition of Sir Jon' Fannimt, Bart. who being a member of the Evesham Commit tee, was excused front attending, on the.physician's declaration' of hi. inability. A new Writ was moved for Blachingley, in the room of Gnomon Taxman, F.sq. who, since his 11111CtiQD, bad accepted the Chiltern Hundreds. A new Writ was moved for Rye, In the room e Mr. As . 'survivor, who having been returned for two places, had made good his election for St. Cenitain's.—Ordered. A new Writ was moved for Cashel, in the room of R. Pittner rarsom, Esq. who, since his Election, had accepted the office of Escheator of Muuster. Mr. Johnson presented an Account of the Receipts and Dis bursements of the London Dock Company, from the otb of November, 1817, to the 10th of November, 1818. Also a Report relative to the Progress of the Works. Mr. BENNET moved for a List of the Number of Convicts that hail been transported to Botany Bay Mice the conuneescH meat of the Enablishment ; and an Account of the &pease, Ste. &c. for the same.—Ordered. The Order of the Day for going into a Committee of Supply, and that for a Committee of Ways end Means, were postponed till Monday. Mr. BENNET bronght np the Report of the Chimney. sweeping Regulation Bill, and moved that it be read a thud time on Monday next, which was agreed to. Mr, HARE presented a Petition from the Inhabitants of Bandon, in the County of Cork, praying that no farther privi leges be granted to the Roman Catbolics.—.lt was received, read, and ordered to lie en the Table, Mr. CANNING postponed the Motion for Thanks to the' Marquis of Hastings. announced for Tuesday next, to Tuesday sennight. Mr. Lai appeared at the Bar, and presentel the names of the ' -Gentlemen who had been ballotted for to try the merits of the contested election for the Town of Chester, : Hon. T. Ce cil, lion. W, Ellis, R. G. Wilm ot , Fag. 4. P. Symonds, Esq. Hon. Ed. Finch, C. Buxton, Esq. O. Smith, Esq. Sir U. De Burgh, Ilon.T. Knox C. harton, Eiq , Lord A. Chichester J. Allen, iisq. Lord Clive, G. Cartwright, Psi. mid J. Cal: craft, E sq . the SPEAKER intimated, that the parties who bad pal greed aphis( the Return for -Great Grfnutby, had not coin* , ted • their Recognisance* to the time glowed bt the Houte.—The order for taking the merits of the Petition Into farther conside ration, was of course discharged. The SPEAKER also intimated, that the parties who had pe ttloned against the Return for. Rye, had neglected to complete their Recognizances.—The order was discharged. • The SPEAKER also gave a similar intimation respecting the parties who had petitioned against the Return for Hull.—This order was also chseharged. •INsoIiVENT DEBTORS Mr. DAVIS moved for leave to present a Petition from a numerous class of Merchants, Traders, and Manufacturers, of Bristol, praying against any re newal of the Insolvent Bill. The Honourable Member observed, that the sentiments of the Petitioners ex actly corresponded with those avowed some nights ago by an Hon. Member (AldermanWaithman), who tipresented the City of London. Mr. PROTHEROE could not allow a Peeition of the nature now described to be presented, without of fering some observations on the subject. The Bill now condemned by the Petitioners had given univer sal alarm ; and all descriptions, from the highest classes of society to the lowest shopkeepers, had suf fered from its baneful operation. It had excited and encouraged a spirit of adventure detrimental to trade aid commerce. When individualsfound themselves unfortunate, they resolved to make another plunge, determined, should they still be attended with mis fortune, to take as the last alternative,, the benefit of the Insolvent Act. He lamented the loss of Sir Sa muel Itomilly, who had promised to offer Parlia ment some amelioration of the law. The Honourable, Member thought it would be better to agree to'a total abolition of every Act relative to debtor and creditor than allow the renewal dumb a Bill. • Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN, by the repetition of his former arguments, argued strenuously against any renewal of the Bill. It had been highly injurious to the whole country, and therefore ought not on any account to be renewed. The Honourable Alderman announced his intention of moving for a list of the names of all persons who had been imprisoned for debt during the last twenty years, and who had taken the benefit of the Act of Insolvency, in order to ascer tain whether or not the evil complained of had ;n -creased or diminished since the passing of the Bill. Mr. Alderman WOOD complained of the imper fections of the Bill as it now stood, as well as con demned its general principles. Lately a debtor, after taking the - benefit of the Act, had been•left £3OOO. His debts had amounted to £1200; and the creditors, who had been offered 7s. in the pound, hearing of the good fortune of the debtor, thought they had a right to M. in the pound, but at last found that they had no power to draw the money from the Bank. It it were in contemplation to renew it, the Honourable Alderman hoped that a clause .*remedy this griev ance would not be omitted. Mr. ABERCROMBIE admitted, that no law which had been formed for a temporary relief or experi ment, could be said to be perfect. But he was fully persuaded that the principle was good. It was acknow ledged, when originally introduced into Parliament, as dre most complete system which had prior to that period been suggested. Lord Redesdale, a profound Lawyer, and who had formerly been at the head of the Law Department for Ireland, (Lord Chancellor,) had evinced much anxious solicitude to render the measure as perfect as the time would allow. Ilis Lordship deserved much praise for his exertions, and the more the system was sifted, it 0/..aild be fortnd more and more salutary. Whatever clamour Gentle• men excited against the Bill, he would maintain that the principle was founded in justice and humanity. Nobody pretended to say that it was perfect ; but if it were capable of amendments, if, in fact, it were good for the community at large, why abandon it? He wished he saw the Attorney-General in his place, that he might recommend a renewal of it with all the amendments deernad requisite. An Honourable Alderman (Ntsithman,) who sat behind him, had complained of the facility it gave to those who wanted credit. But this was not the case, but quite the re verse. If, however, traders chose to adventure, rather than be taught by dear-b Ought experience, the fault was neither in the spirit nor in the principle of the Bill. The llonourable and Learned Member thought it his duty to resist all idle clamour, and declared himself from every principle of policy and fair deal ing between debtor and creditor, friendly to the measure. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN wished to correct a misrepiesentaion of the Honour&le Member. What he said and meant was, that the Bill, with its nume rous faults and detrimental operations, had created a spirit of carelessness on the part of the debtor. It had nearly destroyed the whole morality of trade ! I Many Gentlemen of that House might appear indiffe rent to the subject; but from the experience of be tween 20 and SO years in trade, he thought it incum bent on him to take the part w hich he. had done, in order to protect his own property and that of his constituents. If.greater facility of Credit, which the present Bill, in the opinion of many, was instrumen tal in producing, unhinged the confidence between. man and man—if the property sacrificed amounted to between.eight and nine millions, without produc- 1 ing one farthing in the pound, of dividend's, be would wish to ask the Honourable and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Abercrombie,t what advantage the public had gained by the operations of the Bill ? The-question was certainly trot now in a proper shape before the House for discussion, and, therefore, he was not bound to go farther. It was not a question adapted to the taste of some Gentlemen; but he was glad he spoke in the presence of many highly respectable Gentlemen of the City of London, who knowing the principle of loss and gain, could fully appreciate the truth of what he advanced. Some of them, now conspicuous in the commercial world, had at the commencement of their career, like many of their predecessors, been clerks, and advanced in the com mon gradations. Such men well knew the truth of his allegations, and how detrimental the Bill had been to the laudable industry of the Citizens of Lon don. No amendment could render the Bill palatable. The system was bad altogether, and therefore it should have his warmest opposition. Mr. GORDON wished for the indulgence of the House while he advanced something in favour of the unfortunate debtor. With all the bitter invectives which bad been dealt out against this description of srlen,:he should think it his duty to support the mea sure whenever it came before the House. The pres sure of the times had rendered such a Bill requisite Lad eidutary, and if the united wisdom of r arliaincat had sanctioned it, all the clamours which were inchts. triously excited against it would not avail. It %ra sa Bill of relief from the implacable avarice and u:l , ti lenting rapacity of somrcreditors, who would riv t , t be conteuNd but by the total min of their infest.% nate victim. He approved, as much as any m ar , of the effo*ts of honest industry ; but if a person, fro m the spirit of adventure and laud:ll3le ambition, h e , came unfortunate, s si it fair that he should be stijp., mathed and driven as an outcast from society? jia Bill afforded that cominendible relief which w:ft some Gentlemen constituted tins topic of repro i d . The Worthy Alderman, (Waithrnan,) in order tor, * der the measure unpopular, repeated his favonile remark, that as beLween eight and nine millions ,# property had been sacrificed by the operations nf Bill, without producing one farthing of dividend lc. 4 1 , 3 pound, what benefit had the public derived from it i With all due deference to the worthy Aldernlz r ,, ideas of the morality of trade, he (Mr. Gorden) f i n , convinced that the public had derived great zo,,i from its operations, even admitting the truth of worthy Alderman's calculation. It had been f', t means of relieving many worthy, althoUgh unfcftl. nate individuals, and restored them to society. Pi he would ask the Hon. Alderman, if he believedti a; I more of the property alluded to would lave been re , covered, had the present Bill never been paced?.... The grand morality of trade, according to the H cr „ Member's doctrine, was ready money-and no cro.S., Mr. Gordon, although he found it incumbent uNa him to say thus much in favour of the unfortunes debtor, was by no means frieftly to the dishoc... adventurer. The Petition was then brought up n.r.tl read, azi ordered to lie on the table. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN then moved fo: Names of all those who had been imprisoned, a:4 afterwards taken the benefit of an Imolvent Act, frrm the 31st December, 1797, to the 31st of Deco,:ar, ISIS. The worthy Alderman, howerer, motion, with an intention to bring it 16mA...a on some future day. IRISH GRAND JVRIRS. Mr. DAWSON, after some remarks, movel fo the appointment of a Comtni:tee, to take into conc:- deration the Grand Jury Bill of last Session, ado report their opinions thereon. Sir JOHN NEWPORT approved in some deg.te of the measure. Sir HENRY PAR NELL recommended some strictet clause respecting the expenditure of moneys granted far the repairs of roads, &c Sir GEORGE HILL suggested a Bill enablinj Grand Juries to grant moneys for public buildings Assizes. He complained of the bad state of Jar cross roads, and said, unless the House passed sot.:e of the nature now described, the public works of Ira land would go to decay. Mr. BEECHER ihRIXTON approved highly d the measure. The approaching assizes would fur nish valuable information to the Committee. 'The Bill, %t hen amended, would be as excellent in its ef fect as it was good in its principles. Mr. V. FITZGERA LD entirely agreed with ti Honourable Mover. He approved highly of the prn - ciple of the 11311, and was of a sinalar optitioa with an Honourable Baronet, that unless some such rnt.i• sure were adopted, the pu'olie. buildings and i.cads a.. ;Ireland would soon be in the nio , t raiiioas Mr. ABERCRIMIIIIE declared himself a sinter friend to the princ3ple of the Bill, and °fel ral observations in supptrt of it. Lord JOCELYN_tared. that if an Honourable Ge 3. tlenian opposite had produced letters eroliv the great benefits arising from the present he alio had received letters ex,res;ing th: ve.y ieve.s . .— HoFes. had been excised of an elf .ctmd and car , • nent measure, but those hopes had been ina•ted '.! the inefficiency of that which had been intrtiti:.c. And what had been its results ? that the very net Session it had been necessary to make a niction suspend - its operation. lie hoped that by the end of the present Session, such alterations would be wit in the Act, as would render it, if not perfect in a construction, at least pi acticabic in its execution. Sir JOHN NEWPORT was deride:lly convinced that if the House acceded to any measure tending 3 abrogate the principle of the Grand Jury Acts It would do an irreparable injury to Irelard. After a few observations from Mr. DAWSON an! Mr. V. FITZGERALD in explanation, the Motion was agreed to, and the Committee appointed. On .the motion of Mr. D. I:Rowse, the Petitioe from certain Magistrates of the County of Mayo, *J Ordered to be referred to the said Committee. ELECTION PETITIONS. Sir J. NEWPORT, alluding to the omission of the name of Ireland in the 53d of his Majesty, vnd the erroneous opinion which prevailed in lteland, in cos sequence of that omission, that the provisions or the Act were not intended to, extend to that country, trusted that the House would be induced to extend the time for entering into recognizances to all Pe& tions coming from that quarter. He crinter.ded ast . the law itself allowed them that power, and permit* ted the time to be enlarged to thimy days, on sug* cient grounds being made out. lie then moved, th 4 in the case of the Petition presented yesterday rs• specting the Election for the County of Cork, t!: time for entering into 7ecognizances be extended to the sth of March nem, instead of the sth February. Mr. BATHURST suggested the propriety of 2 . 1' pointing a Select Committee to c on s ider the Petitions, and ascertain whether the 'same error through the whole of them. If that were found t% be the case, the House would of course feel disposed" to grant an extension of time. Sir J. NEWPORT highly approved of the cove proposed, but wished that no time should be lest is appointing the Committee, in order to dept:‘ eat Petitieners of as few Jays r.s piss:l3l.! oat of ev thirty, beyond which no extension could take place. The }knoll - rabic Baronet haring then withdrawa his motion, Mr. BATITURST moved for ti:e appointment.; a - Select Committee, which took place accordingly. The SPEAKER Own acquainted the House., dui: 'Jo* Boyle, Esq. Richard Denmaile, Esq. and Hutchins, Esq. who had petitioned against the r e. turn for the County of Cork; Mounteford Longfie'4 Esq. and Edmund Roche. Esq. against that for fe City of Cork ; George and Hei,ry J. Clements, Esfr: ;and Jolui Luc!), lin. agalast that fv; the County ci