Star. — London, England, 1819-06-03 00:00:00

• if, Wis 4B‘. i ~~ I `1 1 1 11 I t ; ~~ ~) `i ~'~ ~,a „ :• • • _ •! Ilk • k..---. 1-••••••• necessary. Tcolliainguity the gallant Admiralhad, in tact ? made no reply-41 0 feet, hear.) The Csimmittee then divided—For the Amend ' • tatnt'97l.2fsgainst it 164—Majority 67.—The origi nal Resolution was then put and agreed to. Sir GEORGE WARRENDER then moved, that a sum not exceeding £1,631,628 be granted to his Majesty for building and • Ships of War in his Majesty's and Merchants far s, over and above what was proposed to be done under the head of Wear and 'rear, for the present year. Mr. HUMS objected to the proposed sum of £55,000 for works at Bermuda, Jamaica, and Trin comalee, on the grounds that no estimates had been laid before the Committee. He also wished to know whether the sum of £4OBO, for the Board of Longi. lode, was a new vote, and intended to be annual ? He concurred with t he recommendation of the Com mittee, that the Naval Asylum should be abolished, though he should have thought the Military Asylum should have been the first to experience that fate.— He hoped that, now the country was about to return to Cash Payments, all salaries would.be reduced and allowances to what they were in 1797, before the Restrictions had taken place. If that were done, no new Taxes would be necessary. In a short time he should move for a comparative statement of Public Salaries in 1797 and in the present times, and should propose that the deduction be made quarterly. He concluded by moving, that the sum of £55,000, for works at Bermuda, &c. be left out of the proposed Grant. Mr. CROKER explained, that the works in ques tion were not new ones, but had been in progress many years. If a certain estimate of the expense had not been laid before the Committee, it was became the st.cessity of pushing them to a particular extent must depend en, ow political relations. He should meet the omission of. this sum, as no works were more important than tkom carrying on at Bermudas. The Honourable Gentleman must have the goodness to confide a little in his Majesty's Ministers, and to believe that they would not go beyond the necessities of the case. Uhe looked into the Estimates for for mer years. be would find that larger sums had been demanded for the same purpose. The £4OOO to the Board of Lassitude were an old and an annual vote, and he believed no money could be better applied. The Honourable Gentleman talked very lightly of abolishing the Naval Asylum ; but he did not know that it had been established by private charity, whose co, - .tributions amounted to £lOO,OOO. The Public had taken the charity, and also the £lOO,OOO. The -Establishment could not therefore be abolished with out a breach of good faith and honesty. The Amendment was then negatived, and the ori ginal Resolution agreed to without a division. Sir G. WARRENDER then proposed a sum of Z 419,319, for Troops and Garrisons on Foreign Sta tions, and for extra Wear and Tear. Sir M. W. RIDLEY, on comparing the present with former Estimates, found that 1.54,000 were de manded for the Yard at Deptford, whilst the on Estimate last year was only £34,000. On the Esti mate fur Woolwich there was also an increase of e 12,000, and on that for Chatham of £.5100. But the most important of all was for the works of Sheer ness. The original Estimate in 1818 was £433,800, of which £170,000 had been granted ; £553,800 were now demanded, so that the Whole would amount to £733,800. These things required explanation. Mr. CROKER stated that the increase in the Esti• mate for Deptford, was in consequence of the neces sity which had arisen to rebuild instead of patching op the.old walls, which were 100 years old. As to Sheerness,. it would have been impossible, without an actual ocasti inspedu, to form a correct opinion of the expense required.. The excess was produced by the difficulty of working in strong chalk grounds, which the French called travaillees. With respect to the in crease in the charge for Woolwich, it arose from the necessity of changing the line of the Wharf walls.— Twenty-five thousand pounds a year had sometimes been voted to remove the mud from the Woolwich Yard; but by altering a little the course of the river, and removing the mud with machines, the bed of the river had already been deepened, and much future expense would be saved. The Resolution having been agreed to, Sir G. WARRENDER moved, that £761,321 be granted for the Transport Service in 1819. Sir M. W. RIDLEY urged the claims of those Clerks who, having passed through their examina tion, and acted for years in the capacity of Parsers, were upable to attain that rank, and the half-pay which it conferred, in consequence of an Order in Council. He thought that an application to the Prince Regent might procure a remission of that Order in their behalf. lie trusted their services would not be disregarded by the House ; and if no one undertook the task, expressed his intention of proposing, at some future opportunity, an Address to the Prince Regent on the subject. Sir GEORGE COCKBURN stated, that with re gard to the Navy Pursers, a regulation was in pro gress which would place them on the same footing as other Officers. Mr. CROKER regretted extremely that due atten tion to economy should not allow the services of the individuals to whom the Honourable Baronet had al luded to be properly rewarded. Their case, however, was not clearly understood. By former regulations, the number of Pursers in the Navy was limited to the number of ships of war. If a ship were broken up, no Purser could be made until a new vessel bad been built. As many ships had been broken up during the war, and it would have beets hard for individuals to be deprival of their support, they were entered, out,of charity, on the check of the yard, and received about 15d. a day. Thus as many Pursers had been created as vessels had been broken up. This system had afterwards been abolished, and they had been placed on half pay; receiving, at the lowest, as much as an Ensign on half-pay in the Army, and at the highest, as much as a Lieutenant in the same situatiop in the Navy. This regulation had been adopted on, the' express -condition that the old system should be restored as soon as possible, and that no more haul ers, should be made until their number should have ceased to exceed the number of ships in the service. This was the ground on which it was impossible to accede to the claims of the Clerks whom the Honour- Baronet had mentioned, to be raised to the rank -1 placed on half-pay. - was then agreed to. acc on ev ar w u e 79L able : ;t of Pursers a Tae Resolution I ONDIAlier IST2I[ATLB. Mr. .R. W4RD briefly stated ate charges 7 appeared in Ordnance Estimates of the' par compared with those of the last. re t on seeount of superannuation allo wances .ansoetiied to about £50,000. There was a reduction of 1,824 O ffi cers, artillerymen and drivers, the num ben having been in the last year 9,759, and being at' present but 7,935. The total expense of the Ordnance was now brought down to about £1,100,000 front £8,400,000 which it had amounted to during the war. He moved for a grant of £386,262 in full discharge of the Ordnance for the land service of 1819. Mr, HUME said, that he observed £1,500, exclu sive of the expense of materials, charged for the ma nufacturing of gunpowder. The consequence of this manufacture was very injurious to the manufacturers of gunpowder throughout the country. He hoped, therefore, it would be given up by his Majesty's Go vernment beyond what they actually wanted. There was another item with respect to which he wished to ask a question. How were vacancies in the Staff of the Artillery filled up He had heard that the Mas ter-General had ordered that every other vacancy should be supplied by a Cadet from Woolwich, and a Half-pay Officer. If it was so, thanks were due to him for that arrangement. 'He had stated, whet the Army Estimates were voted, that a similar arrange ment ought to have been adopted in the Army, by' which £330,000 would be saved in getting recruits. Besides, there was great injustice iti appointing any other to a vacancy instead 'of a Half-pay (11Fffieer. There was one other item to which he begged to ad. vert. Many items charged were new entirely, bei these were ethers with which they had been long fa miliar. The Committee, now so much relied on, had recommended that Ceylon, the Matiritius, the Cape of Good Hope, Heligoland, and the lonia°. Wands, should pay their own expenses ; yet they were all charged in the present Estimate to the 'amount of £620,000. Why was their recommenda tion, which was so much attended to when agreeable to Ministers, neglected in this instance? Why was not this sum, More than half a million sterling, saved to the country ? Mr. R. WARD acknowledged that he was con nected with the first question respecting the manu facture of gunpowder. The gunpowder manufac• cured was superior in point of excellence to any ma nufactured through all the world. The manufacture was, however, reduced to the smallest quantity that could keep it alive. As to the second question, he did not understand It, for the Artillery had no Staff. (Mr. Hung said across the table that it was, how 10fficers were appointed to vacancies?) The Honour able Member proceeded next to reply to the question as to the Colonies. The usual charges were only continued, no provision being made for disconti nuing them. The sum of £'0,094 16s. 10d. was granted for the current service, contingencies, stores, &c. on account of the year 1818, not provided for by Parliament, after a remark from Mr. Camila/1T that £14,000 appeared to him sufficient foI the purpose. The sum of £lO,OOO was then proposed, for de fraying the expenses of the Reduction of the Ord nance Military Conn for the year 1819. Mr. HUME said, that he should not object to the Estimate laid before the House; supposing it to be true, that the powder manufactured in his Majesty's powder-mills were of the superior nature which it] had been stated to be : he could not, however, help+, +stating, that £7,000 for 1,000 barrels was a most+ enormous price, and only to be defended on the ground of the great excellence oldie article purchased. He had been informed, that the gunpowder manu factured at private mills in this country was by far the best in Europe. The Honourable Member was proceeding to make some further statements, when he was informed by Mr. Bkoones, the Chairman, that he had totally mistaken the subject then before the Committee. The question was, not whether they should grant a specific sum for she purchase of the gunpowder, but whether they should grant £lO,OOO tor the reductions which he had before mentioned? Mr. HUME said, that as such was the case, he should shorten the other remarks which he had to make. Ile wished to know why the Accounts for 1814 had not yet been delivered for audit to the proper officers? Mr. R. WARD said, that perhaps tle Honourable Member was not aware of the difficulty which existed in making the Returns to which he (Mr. Hume) al luded. The officers by whom they were to be trans mitted to this country, were in almost every part of the globe—some were at Malta, others at Gibraltar, some in the East and others in the West Indies. He could inform the Honourable Gentleman, that a pro secution had already been instituted against some officers, for their neglect to make these and other si milar Returns. The grant was passed without further remark. The sum of £275,667 18s. was then granted on account of the Allowances to Superannuated, Retired, and Half pay Offi cers, to O ffi cers for good services, to Superannuated and Dis abled Men ; also foe Pension. to Widows and Children of de ceased Officers, late belonging to the several Ordnance Military Corps, for the year 1819. The sum of Ss. Sd. was then granted on the above-' mentioned heads of Accounts, for Woken periods between the Ist of January and 31st of December, 18111, and not provided for by Parliament. The sum of £34,464 2s. 6d. was granted for Soperannnated, or Retired Allowances to the Civil Officers, Artificers, and La bourers in the Office of Ordnance, and also for Pensions to Widows, and for Offices suppressed. £161,001 15s. 4d. were granted for the Civil and Military Expenses of . the Ordnance in Ireland. ;e19,000 were then proposed on account of Allowances to Retired Officers of the late Irish Artillery and Engineers, sod also for Pensions to their Widows Sir JOHN NEWPORT wished to know what had become of the Establishment at Kilmainham. There were 300 acres of land attached to it, which produ ced a considerable revenue ? Of this he'saw no men tionin the Public Accounts. Mr. R. WARD said, that these lands had been let to the highest bidder, and that the amount of ,their produce was to be found in the Army Estimates. EXCHILQUILK BILLS. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he had five distinct grants to propose to the con sideration of the House. The first was, that the sum of £3,595,600 should be granted to his Majesty to pay off the t :chequer Bills which had been charged on the Supplies of 1818, and which were.y nuprq-, vided for by Parliament. Mr. GRENFELL observed, that in thi rinsasits which heTelt it his duty to offer to the gonaeco,th:j present occasion, he had no intention of reviving the 110411 C eissi inestiz w H h e i c h w be would, ba nd however, before it, as they would dist in c tl y chew what dotteadeve l r, gp c b al mi l upon the 661. as ' to look at the accounts which on his motion had been *mid have been the effect of the Sinking Fund, as le bee n n c n l e tra app e l t i ed ca . ble m t i o e t e h fr e et fo t u of r l t a h s e t R loa ig n h s t w H h o ic o h ourah had 's (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) having acted on the system which he had recommended with re ite g ve a o rd m to ill th io o n se s i l o oa j n o s z he lh m l e 3 a t nt t t il h a e t l o ol f in t :f es t= w y o • illions in November of the same year; that of twenty-four millions in the beginning of 1814 ; and of that unexampled loan of thirty-six millions in i th ss e ione po r h s li of e, Debt,e saved er, in to the Commissioners to other words, t l h B e ls N—atwiomnalld have six millions sterling—a saving which would have om f p ore rodu h c a e v d e an ad a d n e n d ui t t o y o th f e E2 re 6 v B eo , and would there fore a sum more than equivalent to the sum raised by that most odious and obnoxious of all taxes, the Lottery Tax. If he was correct in this assertion, his plan would have saved to the nation, in perpetuity, so much of the revenue as was now raised annually in such improper and ille gal methods. How far the old system was to be acted on when a new loan was contracted, was a sub ject well worth future consideration, especially if we were, as some persons asserted, upon the eve of one at the present moment. The Sinking Fund applica ble to the service of the year was about fifteen or six teen millions in amount: the loan, it was said, was to be thirty millions ; so that the question was, whe ther they would go to the loan contractors for the whole of the sum wanted, or whether they would touch the Sinking Fund for part of it ? He would entreat the Right Honourable 'Gentleman opposite, who he hoped had not already committed himself, to reflect once more how far what he had pressed on this topic was correct and reasonable. This consi deration led him to notice a rumour which had been very general throughout the day, and which he be lieved in his conscience to be nothing more than a base calumny on the character of the Right Honour able Gentleman. He appealed to those Gentlemen who were conversant with the City, whether it had not been currently reported there that the Chancel lor of the Exchequer had communicated to the loan contractors, and to the loan contractors only, the sum which he intended to raise for the services of the year ? If he had made any such communication, he had given a most improper advantage to the loan contractors ; indeed, he (Mr. Grenfell) must denounce it as equally unfair to the stockholder and to the Public. The Right Honourable Gentleman ought to have made sucb communication, if indeed lie had made it, on Thursday last, previous to the holidays; but for his own part, he did not believe thatany such communication had taken place, and could not con sider the rumour as any thing else than a. mere ca lumny on the Right Honourable Gentleman. He stated it, however, thus publicly, in order to give the Right Honourable Gentleman the opportunity of con tradicting it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER allowed that the observations which• the Honourable Member had just made were of considerable import ance, and were well entitled to the attention of Par liament; but at the same time remarked thatle had no right to assume such savings as he had done. His argument proceeded upon this principle, that if the Sinking Fund had been taken, the loan might have been raised upon better terms than those en which it actually was raised ; but he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could by no means accede to such a po sition--(Hear, Apar.) Therefore, though he would not at present say whether the Honourable Gentle man's scheme would or would not be of advantage to the Public, he hoped that the House would not conceive it to be of advantage without seeing some proof of it. With regard to the Sinking Fund, he could state, that no hint, application, or intimation had been given to any individual. In answering this I question, be had also answered the second question which the Honourable Gentleman - had put to him. In his communication with the persons whom he ge nerally met on financial arrangements, he could not, perhaps, help making some communications as to the sum he might require: he must, however, state; that nothing formal had passed upon the subject. Mr. RICARDO said, that if the Right Honourable Gentleman had informed all the loan contractors of the amount of the loan which would be wanted for the arrangements of the year, then the whole Public would have been rendered aware of it. If, however, this information Was not given to all of them, but restricted to a single loan contractor, it gave a great advantage to that individual, and prevented that competition which it was the interest of a Minister to encourage. For himself, he could affirm, that no such information bad ever reached him (Hear, hear), but as the rumour was so strong, and as its details were so particular, he could not doubt that some such communication as his Honourable Friend had men tioned had actually been made. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER re peated his former denial, and said that no commu nication had taken place, except as to a conversa tional question. He should be happy to make the same communication to the Honourable Member who had just sat down. Mr. GRENFELL rose, and with some degree of warmth asserted, that he was himself convinced, and he thought the House must be convinced like wise, that such a communication had been made— (Hear).—He-had originally conceived the rumour to be a mere calumny ; but he could do so nu longer , as e . Right Hon. Gentleman had confessed that het bad made it to some persons; those persons, he had little doubt, were some of the Loan Contractors. The Loan was said to be for £30,000,000, and he was satisfied that this report was true. It therefore led him to believe another rumour which he had heard, that he (the Chancellor of the Exli.equer) did not intend to apply to the Sinking Fund. He had Indeed been told that the Right Honourable Gentle had said, that if improper terms were proposed pSy the Loan Contractors, he would use th e means which he had in his own hands. He could wish to leow why he would net? and his reason for think ing that he ought was this—that while no single Contiactor would dare to grapple with a Loan of 00,000,000, several would grapple with one of . C 15060,000. The communication which had 'been made to those individuals, whose na mes were i n t h e • mind of every MOoberin the House, was conferring upon thcin a saM'extoordiaary advantage. Would I'the Right Honourable Gentleman gratify th e li e , by giving it the information which had been es,: these Loan Contractors ?—(Hear, heat )--0," „; .he state any reason f or w i t hh o ldi ng it froni the 11 6 ; —4Heer).--He was sorry that he h a d enter tain.t frourable an opinion of - the Right Hon. Gendi rmit character; but he must repeat, that he tnnsi all the rumours to be perfectly well founded. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCH EQUER it ready to state all the communications which h e h : i ever made upon th e su bj ect . H e had asked. in ; course of conversation, wh e th er a L oan of £130,000, I to cover the expenses or the next , year a:al the In sent, or a small Loan for the present year, or a n 4 , plication to the Sinking Fund, would be the in 4 advisable course? Mr. BARNETT, alluding to the conversation th had occurred upon the subject, observed, that u s the present circumstances it almost became the di of the House to interfere and prevent a Loan ah gether—(Hear.) Lord MILTON said, that the Right Honour* Gentleman . had almost confe ss ed th e ci rcumstarr which had been imputed to him: for it was clt that he might ask a question in such a manner would tell the person to whom it was addressed, ml it was his intention to do--(Hear). The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER la, that he had asked the question with a view of dis c , vering what would be the most efficient plan. Mr. BARNETT repeated his inrmerobservation. Mr. GRENFELL said, that if the Right Honk able Gentleman suffered himself to be i: , Aucliced i, the loan contractors, be would not be discharging l ; ditty to his country in the manner ‘..hich that cos, try had a right to expect that he should. W ere 6 loan contractors a fit body of men to ask whether. 'loan .-.hould be £30,000,000 or A.:15,00:),000 ? il l thought not. On a former occasion, when a simii question had been put to them regarding the er diency of a loan for £12,000,000 or £2 , ". they had one and all answered (with the except his honourable Friend) that a loan of £24,001, would he more advantageous to the Public—he lieved that they meant to themselves—(Hear, heal The Grant was then passed. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved, that 1:3,000,0000 he granted to his Nlajt , to pay off certain other Exchequer Bills, in the /- of the Mink. Mr. GRENFgLL said, that when this money been borrowed, some intimation had been tl, out, that though the Bank were entitled to 41 cent, as interest, they would allow the public toll:. it without any interest, owing to the balances %di( they i etained in their hands. He wished to ' whether any or what pavitient: had been paid to Bank, as interest upon this sum ? The CHA NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER: that to the best of his knowledge, no payment of terest had been made to the Bank. The Honoeral Gentleman, however, was.as well acquainted this subject as he was at present. .Sir JOHN NEWPORT thought that this was a question which ought to come before the House for a decision, because, whatever op;nion might be en• tertained of the liberality of the Bank, the for of the Exchequer ought to have communicated plain statement of the real circumstances to t House, in order that it might take steps to pay ~ these Exchequer Bills, or else that it might oot rest under ir dekusion that no interest would be demanded for them. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER _ that it had been his intention to have brought this subject before the consideration of the Secret Com mittee upon the Affairs of the Bank. Sir JOHN NEWPORT observed, that if House would examine into this question, they would have a noble opportunity of seeing the extreme libe rality of the Bank. The grant was then acceded t0.—£1576,339 6s. Bd. were then granted to pay off the interest of the Un funded Debt in Exchequer Bills and Irish sury Bills. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that 04,400,000 be granted to pay off outstanding Ithla Treasury Bills. Sir JOHN NEWPORT observed, that whatever might be the intrinsic advantage of an investment is these securities, it was generally frustrated by the delay which took place in obtaining them. He knew this from having once had occasion to invest the pro perty of a relative of his own in these securities ; and he then found that the greater part of them u absorbed by the Banks of England and of Ireland. If an investment of this floating nature were mini. site, there ought either to be a greater quantity of them in the market, or the advantage of them ought not to be entirely destroyed by the delay occasioned in procuring them. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the uncertainty of the Irish market made it diffi cult to supply it with these securities. If any plan could be devised to render it more certain, he should be happy to lend his assisance to the accomplish ment of it. 6ir JOHN NEWPORT supposetribat t rut' ii Bills might be disposed of i n I re l a ttd i n manner as they were in England. Mr. GRENFELL said he understood, that who , : the Bank bought silver bullion, and sent it to the Mint to be coined, they received in return for it what were called Mint Notes. He understood that these Bills carried interest, at a rate very injurious to the Public, from the day when the silver WAS first de);- , vered at the Mint, to the day when it was returned coined to the Bank. He wished to know, whether this was or was not the case : if it was the ease, what was the rate of interest which the Bank received? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that the Bank had at present received no in terest on these Bills. Whether, under existing cir cumstances, they would expect any, the Honourable Gentleman was as able to judge as he was. The Grant w: , , then passed. 11:4.,300,000 were then granted to pay of die Ex chequer Bills charged on the Aids . granted by the last Parliament. Lord MILTON asked why certain Returns of British Offi cers in the service of Foreign Statca had not been laid ups) the table? Lord CASTLEREAGH would snake enqury. BRITISH 11USLUM. Mr. BANICES -- iit;;Q:ihW 40,018 .;horrid b e granted fat the use nfthe Dritidt.Mtunatn..,Granted the ih t en o il -Or % v . the I ( t i d n , d itnt lensk I smnsid led. ZCER ;ch h e h ke c b i n 30 ,000,y si the or an the ?t ,. 'cation that tan, te the d , Loan an ionourali ' rcurnst i was manna essed, lUER sa V of diSc. ervatinn, it 11, lucticed t, sat - ging that cou W eret ;.„ L•hether U 00? lb A sinit 4 the ex , xcept ion 24,000 t k--he as, hear.) !UER . tis the • Tloner en throw to 41 lic to hare ices which i to know said to the ERstated, sent of in- fonoerable inteci with his was a House for ht be en- Chancel- articated es to do to pay of at oot rest demanded LTER said, night tha cret Com- a if the sey would reme 6s.Bd. of the Un- ids Treat- IYER then ay off the whatever mtment ia ed by the He knew st the pro. -ities ; and sem were f Ireland. ere mini. uantity of em ought ccasioaed JER said, de it dim- inc plan he should 41 32 1:1 1 i5h . iry tie?sahte hat w 4. t it to the n- it Wh.tt hat these Has to the a__. A.l;_