Star. — London, England, 1819-12-14 00:00:00

~ . t ply .r (i~ P r ; vi; I s • . . • ' • 'S - 1 . 4 ~~ ;: 4 .o I 4 ' ~-J I . • r ;. prison, for he believed it was the opinion of the Lawl Officers of the Crown, that the place to which he alluded, was in the contemplation of the law so con sidered. He should be sorry to see any Gentleman . of respectability sent to the prison in its present state, and he should take care,. if it. were necessary, that the requisite accommodation should be prepared— ( Hear,- !tear ).—All that was wanted was a little time;, and he hoped at least that a day or two would be giren before the commitment should be ordered. The question was then read from the Chair,' Mr. MARTIN—" Sir, I would be the last man in this House"—EHere the Honourable Member was interrupted by a general burst of laughter, it being perceived that he was addressing the Chair from the Gallery.)—He then begged to assure the House, that he would not have spoken from that place, if.he had not found it impossible, from the crowded state of the benches below, to find an opportunity of deliver ing his ppiniun in his usual place--(Hear, hear). He would be the last man in the House to wish to ag gravate the punishment of any individual ; but he had for a long time attended in that House, and when he recollected that he had seen others brought to the Bar for offences not greater than that now 1)e -fore the House, and that he had seen those persons committed to Newgate, he could not understand why a different course should he now pursued—(Hear, hear). He could not think it was fairly reasoned, that because this Gentleman'wes richer or better informed than others, he should therefore be punished in a way different from others—(Hear, hear). If the House. proceeded thus with regard to Mr. Ilobhouse, might it not be imputed, and dangerously imputed, at a time like the present, that the House was afraid to d.al with him as it ought to do ?—(Hear, hear). — Might it not be said, that the House, in hereafter re fusing simian leniency to others, by not committing them, permitted a distinction in its punishments, founded upon a difference of persons, not a difference of clime ?—( Hear, hear). If the House committed him to Newgate, if he submitted to the ordinary course, and then made an application fur leniency, tiq on the ground of ill health, he (Mr. Martin) would willingly accede to such an application. But he would rather get rid of the whole of the present pro ceeding, and leave the Author to he prosecuted by the Attorney-General—(No, no! from several parts of i/fe House)—than have the ordinary course altered. He was not disposed to do that, however ; he was only willing to' do it, rather than that the House should not pursue the proper measures in times like the present. He was not particularly desirAis that the Gentleman should be committed to custody. 13ut that was the ordinary course, and he could not see how it was to be avoided. If, when Mr. Hiabhouse was committed, an applicatiOn should be made, :Lit ing that, from the nature-of the prisiu,. he was ap prehensive of ill consequences, the House, no doubt, would give it their attention. But be-should be first committed, as any other individual, under similar circumstances—(Herr, hear,. and cries of Question!) . Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said, that he could scarcely believe the House had given sufficient con- iideration to the publication in question, or they would not seem so disposetl to accede to the Honour able and Learned Gentleman's motion. He had read the pamphlet carefully, and though there was in it carte language which he would not defend, still he denied the inference drawn from it by the Honour able and Learned G entleman. He could; not perceive that the passage most strongly commented upon had the tendency imputed to it, of exciting the People - % the exercise of " brute force." The anther' certainly had no intention to convey such an idest: He merely s tid, that the House had rendered itself obnoxiout to the People; that it had • lost its character, whith kould only be supported by the affection and re ierect of the Public. ' Lord,CASTLEREAGH rose to order. He ap pealed to the House, whetter the Honourableßarisnet was in order in pursuing such a line of observation, iviten the nature of the publication was not the ques tion before the House? When . that question Was under consideration, it yeas competent to any Mem ber to speak to the character of the pamphlet. But that question was desidedv and the House was now deliberating only upon the mode in which it should be punished. Mr. BROUGHAM agreed, that the question now was, not whether. the pamphlet was or was not libel lous? but though the House had decided upon the character of the publication, still he believed it was competent to his Honourable Friend to urge all kind of matter which could possibly tend to mitigate the punishment—( Hear, hear, hear). No doubt it was now too late to deny that the publication was a libel, but it appeared to him that the author was now in the situation of a person brought up to the Court of King's Bench to have judgment passed upcn and that every thing might be contended for which would lessen the penalty—(Hear, hear). Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said, he was about to prove, that the pamphlet did not deserve the charac t-.:r imputed to it. Ilia as that question had been de- Aded, and it seemed to be the feeling .of tie House that it should not be renewed, he would submit ( Hear 1 ) He could not, however, avoid observing, that it was a very RhadaranthztAike kind of prek ceeding, .for it was upon the principle—" Decide first, wed you may read after !" He doubted whether' it was of much advantage to say any thing in raiti gation of punishment, sifter so extraordinary a trial; Cut he would beg leave to observe, that there was strong ground for such a mitigation, in the notorious fact, that others were allowed to commit breaches of privilege, of at least equal enormity, without any animadversion whatever. He alluded to that part of the Press which was under the patronage of Go vernment. The Ministerial newspapers issued grosser libels upon that house, thin any which could be f6und in the censured pamphlet, and to prove his as sertion, he would take leave to read a paragraph from The Morning Post Mr. W. W YNNE rose to order. He believed it was out of the usual line of proceeding in the House, td cuperadd to a question like that now before the House, a new matter for consideration, as would . be the case if they were now called upon to say Whether the passage which the Honourable Baronet - was about to read, was or was not a breach of privi lege. He apprehended that it was not competent for any Member to read any writing from another per , son, in which a breach of privilege was committed, merely for the purpose of argument. Nor could a newspaper be read in the lillae iabi gi t r aanfsoonitleumr ot ter rr pose thanahak of making a comp which wi t s grintedin it. Sir FRANCIS BURDWIT,• though called to or ' der by the Honourable Member who just sat down, was still as ignorant as before how he *as out of or der—(Hoer, hear!) —He thought it a strong ground' Of argument upon which he was proceeding , thou g h kepis of opinion, that no writing could be any thing more than a constructive breach of privilege. He would not hold that any writing was of itself a breach of privilege. He would allow that such an offence might be committed by a person attempting to impede any process of the House, or doing any act, by which it should be brought into. contempt. It was essential to the public interests, that all the rights of the House should be upheld. But when one writing was condemned, it was perfectly fair to call the attention of the House to another. The HOn. Baronet then proceeded to read from The Morning. Post of Friday last, the following paragraph : " In the House of Commons, last night, Mr. Bennet brought forward his,promised motion, ostensibly for an inquiry into the present state of the Manufacturing districts, but really for the promotion of party and mischievous views? Mr. BANKES rose to order. He submitted that it was impossible for any Gentleman to be allowed to read a paper of that kind within the walls of the souse of Commons—(Hear, hear). Mr. BROUGHAM rose to 'order. No one was more willing to bow to the authority of the House, and to uphold its privileges, than himself; but no Member should abdicate his functions so far, as to submit to individual opinion, until he knew what the final judgment of the House would be—(Hear, l :ear). In his opinion, the Honourable Gentleman who op posed the line of argument adopted by his Honour able Friend, formed his decision rather zoo hastily; when he expressed, himself so decidedly waist the competency of the topic which was introduced. It was a topic allowed at all times, and on all questions which became the subject of litigation. It was al lowed in the case of Reeves; it was introduced by Mr. Pitt himself, when first the True Dillon pub lished certain reflections upon the proceedings in the impeachment against Lord Melville—(Henr, hear). It was a common mode of argument, when one was charged with an oflence, to refer to others who had committed a similar offence with impunity. It would have been consistent in Gentlemen to offer these ob jections, if they had differed from his honourable Friend a little more in general topics. Thus, for in stance, why did not the Honourable - Member interrupt the Member for Yorkshire the other night, when he .quoted, arid quoted largely, from the pamphlet in questiqt ?(Hear, hear). Was he - prepared to con tend, that there was any essential distinction between a pamphlet and a newspaper? Was there no affinity between them ?--(llcar, hear). Yet wheit the Ho nourable Member was reading it, nobody rose to stop hirri. And it was not tilt after he had . read a large' portion of: the said pamphlet, and read' it uninte'r ruptedly—it teas not Until after the question was put and carried by a majority, which, for auht he knew, was influenced . by the quotations, that his Honour able and Learned Friend opposite' had ever thdught of asking, whether . the Member who read the pant phlet bad atiy intention. of making it ground for a , complaint of A breach of privilege?—(Rear, hear).. If that line of argument was conststetit with' justice and order in one case, it must be so in another . ; and until some great difference between the two cases was shewn, he could not see the insularity so much oba jee!ed to—(ifiar hear). Mr. BA NKES said, why the reading of the pam phlet, at the time alluded to, was not interrupted, he was not prepared to say. It was for the House to say, whether or not it was a violation of order? If the Hon. Baronet had introduced the topic generally, he would not have ajected to it. All he had ob jectel. to was, hii proceeiing to read a paragraph from a neu spryer, the very hist words of which con tained a bleach of the privilege of the House: and this the Honourable Baronet proceeded to do, with- out intimating any intention to make that paragraph a ground of complaint, or even to make it a part of his speech. he SPEAKER—Perhaps the House would pat:- don him, but lie thought he might be permitted to state what occurred tojim under the present circum stances. It was clear that the House, having decided on the pamphlet in question, and having affirmed it to be a breach of privilege, the Honourable Mem ber, speaking in extenuation, was veimittett a wide field. It dici - not appear to be in order that a Member should cite another lihel, and apply it with a view of extenuation. Whatever was the meaning of the words, it was competent to any Member re advance them distinctly; but if he - did so advance them as libellofis, he was bound to prefer them as matter of complaint. The Honourable Baronet would have stood in a different situation before the House had decided upon the character of tla! pamphlet. It would have been then open to him to contend, that if the pamphlet were considered strong in its langtage, he could produce words still stronger. But he should follow up the argument by denying that the stronger words were not libellous, and thus conclude that therefore the weaker words were not libellous. To make the passage alluded to in the Newspaper bear in the way of extenuation, he could only urge that they were stronger than the language of the pam phlet, but that they were not libellous, and therefore the pamphlet was not so. If the Honourable Mem ber wished to mention these words as libellous, he could ran do so without making them matter of coin ', plaint. He hoped he had rendered himself I Bible to the House ; but he would say, that with re gard to reading from printed papers as parts of speeches, Members would perhaps feel it personally incumbent upon them not to stretch that hewn which the House granted as a conveniency, to the injury of justice. Mr. WYNN said, no Member could read. from a rinted paper, except by leave from the House, un less it was to bring that paper before them as a breach of privilege. The SPEAKER observed, that the ordinary course of reading extracts was, he conceived, a practice 4. lowed for general conveniency, and the strict order of the House was still in operation to prevent its abuse—( Hear, hear). Mr. STUART WOMAN explained, that he ha( not brought forward the breach of privilege, but re: ferred to the pamphlet in support of the argamenf he was using: Sir FRANCIS BURDETT pid, as it was so dit S leak ib *Mit he hag intended, he should abstain fious priedeohis view of the question. The quesuon was put that the words " to his Ma jesty's jail of Newrate" proposed .to be admitted, stand part of the Motion Ayes 198—Noes O.—Majority 133.! The SPEAKER then put the question— u That Joks Cart Ifoihouse be committed to Newgate ; and that the Srsanza do issue his warrant accordingly.—Agreed to. NEW MEASURES. Mr. BARNET presented a Petition from certain Inhabitants of Rochester, against the passing of the Restrictive Measures at present in their progress through the House, which they considered as sub versive -of the Constitution. The Petition was or timed to lie on the table, and to be printed. Mr. CAVIERT presented a Petition from the In habitants of the Borough of Southwark, expressive. of their reprobation of the measures* at present in their course through the House, and of the Seizure of Arms Bill in particular. The Hon. Gentleman observed, that it would not appear extraordinary that he had not hitherto been able to find an oppor tunity of stating his sentiments on the momentous questions referred to in the Petition he now held in his hand, when it was considered that there were six hundred and fifty-eight Members in that House, most of them. anxious to speak, and some of them not sa tisfied with speaking once on the same question. The Honourable Gentleman briefly went over the trans actirins of the 16th of August last, which, he said, he viewed with horror. 'I he means employed to dis perse the Meeting of the People on that occasion were rigorous in the extreme, and unueressary. He would put it to any one, wh o was of a different opi niop, how it was possible to disperse, according to law, 50,000 persons in the course of a few minutes? He also contended, that if Ministers were to go on much longer in the same course they had followed wide ard to this question, they would raise a spi- , rit in ane country which the adoption of measures like the present would in vain labour to quell. On the question being put from the Chair, “ That this' Petition be now brought up," Sir ROBERT WILSON followed his Honcurable Friend in support of the Petition. He observed, that while his Constituents, in whose behalf this Petition was presented, were the firm friends of peace and good order, and determined to defend the Constitu tion, they were by no means inclined to give up the tried and acknowledged maxim, that the People were the source of powei. The Petitioners complained, that they saw in the Bill for the Seizure of Arms a revolutionary made of governing. They saw in the Libel 13111 a determination, not to remove solely all sedition and blasphemy from the Press, but to remove 'indefinitely all that should be obnoxious to that systeid of despotism which the rulers of this Country were sendeavom jog to establish. They saw in the whille 'iiieasures a tendency to abolish the sacred Right of : Meeting, for the purpose of discussing grievances, and of Petitioning Parliament on the same. It had hitherto been held, that an Englishman's house was his castle, Arnund which the elements might whistle, and which they might enter, but which the King might not enter. What had now become of this no tion? The abject was to be exposed to have his bolts broken open ; the peace and domestic order of his house interrupted ; and to be exposed to the brutal violence and the lust of midnight invaders. The Pe. ritioners declare, that if such measures were allowed to pa's, the only remedy, in their opinion, was, that his Majesty's Ministers be declared unworthy of the royil confidence, and that it was hoped and expected that they would be dismissed; but, if they should still conth:ne in the confidence of the Sovereign, they feared a system of oppression would be persevered in againit the People, which would goad them on to skew that it was beyond their power of sufferance. The Petition was then brought up, ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. Lord CASTLEREAGH moved the third reading of the Seditious Meetings Prevention Bill. Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON declared, that voting, as he was abort to do, in favour of this mea sure, he gave his vote with more regret than ever he did on any former occasion, as he was about to differ from his Honourable Friends nw him. No one could respect more highly than he did, the rights of his fellow-countrymen, but the freedom of the 'present times seemed to consist in an abuse of those rights, and to be employed solely for the purpose of taking away the rights of others. He hoped, that in giving his vote on the present occasion, he would not be un derstood as acquiescing in the other measures of Mi nisters; or that either his duty to his Country, or his principles were compromised by acting thus. His object in doing so, was to perform that duty the more sincerely. He admitted all the objections urged against the Bill by his Honourable Friends; but he was internally convinced, that the state of the manu facturing districts was waists demanded some mea sure of that description, and it was that conviction gone that influenced his vote—(Hear, hear). Mr. lIUTCUINSON did not feel the same reluc tance as his Noble Friend who had just sat down in giving his vote. He declared his dissent, not only to the present measure, bat to the whole of the mea sures introduced by the Noble Lord opposite since the commencement of the Session. The Noble Lord had, in all his dealings with foreign countries shewn a disposition to under-rate and make war against the liberties and privileges of mankind in general; and now that his attention was exclusively turned towards his own country, he did not seem disp•sed to lose any time in his endeavours to effect his favourite de signs in this respect. He (Mr. Hutchinson) believed in his soul, that the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) had no' apprehension respecting the state of the country,fur diet than that if the People were allowed to continue to exert the right of petition as they had hitherto done, he would be compelled to abandon the system OD which he had founded his dearest hopes and ex pectations. In the event of this Bill being carried, he should propose a clause for the purpose of ert. erupting Ireland from its operation. He could not conceive upon what grounds the Noble Lord could defend his having extended this Bill to Ireland. He bad himself said, in opening to the House the nature of die measures which he - had since proposed; in al inding to that part of the Royal Speech which ad-* vats to.the. state.of the manufacturing districts, that -he had known Ireland in ti much wen* *tate, ad at the same time admitted, thid all the sliming symp toms whiCh had evinced themselves in that country had now entirely ipbalded. To this %%amp marl ,Irish Members had since borne testimony, Ireland (Ms. C. Grant). H e d en i ed what *horn was the Right Ho noura bl e the Sec . . 1 said with regard to the pr , .si.erity of Ireland. that country there was a total want of trade aa.l , nufactures,•and it was his belief that, YH. a., ception of the linen trade, the only flouri s hi ng was the contraband. Th ere was a total failtir7' else ; and Gentlemen who had the means of know; could state, that a most frequent sight in th e ir tacturing parts of Ireland, was that of a nak ed ' ptarving peasantry. Instead, therefore, of at ply Measures of the description of the present to , country, he had rather see the Noble Lord ao colleagues cd'ming forward e ith measures for the tivation of some of its mountains, or in prepa t i w , . something tending to amelior ate its condition. 6 4 subject, he could not help expressing his the Irish Members of that Ilouse should not ~ themselves in a better way abotiethezaterest s (if; country, than by merely shewing themselves fled to add to the numbers of the Noble Lord i. vising measures for oppressing of it! It ai l ; ominous to the happiness of Ireland to see ~ Irish Members swelling the ranks of the Admi:Ji tion on this occasion. Was it in vengeance to country that they did this ? or how did it tally the representation which had.been made on a evening by one of them, that they had left homes in the hour of danger. for the purpo se fending their cause in that House ?—,(l hot, He would ask the Noble Lord what reasons hen) 'have for extending those measures to helm!+ also called upon the Right Honourable Merrber the University of Dublin (Mr. Plunkett), for character and talents lie had the.highest get up and state what were the inducements of Administration to take such a step? News had received that day from the capital of Itel,oni, stated the general feeling of alarm u!ii:lt etr A i the country, an hearing of thi, intentio,, „ r; of Minister:. It was in consequerico of the and Manufacturing Meetings which ila,f in this country' that the present n,ctsurei duced. In this view, however. they would nut to Ireland. lie called on arty Member in th..t h to state that any Parliamentary Rdol-nt had takep place in Ireland. It was true Mats's. lars had seen sent forth for the purpose of t " such Meetings, but they had nct had the eifert tended. Even after the transactions of the Iris August, not a single Meeting had taken place, claratory of the feelings of horror which been felt by the whole population at the rAit.ii them. It had not been thought necessary, vd:tv Habeas Corpus Act had been suspended, in extend its -suspension to /*eland ; and rii Union, when that Act was suspended is .the country pnt under military law, the same dons had nbt been applied to Great Britain. lit then, were two precedents for Irek,:id beirg . lempted from the operation of the niea:ures thought necessary for England... Was it no eltject the Noble Lord to keep Ireland quiet? It WL knciwledged on all hands to be so at presort, 2:i .would remain so if it was nct deterraiaetl to dew to madness by opposing it. In respect to whe bad already said as to the defalcation' of the Gentlemen from their country, lie was so:ry to tee Great Captain—and an Irishman—rorraing oned' Administration, and in-the hour of danger nothmii: troops againsta foreign foe, but heading Englishra to put down the liberties of his country 9 . (Mar, He was aware, that Gentlemen who were cor;..c.', , with those parts of Great Britain which wore in state of tranquillity, would say, that it amid bee fair to apply the operation of these nreasmestsithg districts, and exempt Ireland. To this, howtveri l would answer, that there was a natural cons,etioni tween these Counties and the most remote Coundoi the Island ; whereas no such connexion existed vi regard to Ireland. This country was sea-girt 11 Honourable Gentleman concluded by appealing; all the Members in that House, whether for Wab England, or Scotland, to join him in rescuingd Sister Country from the imposition of those opts sive measures. to tie tv Mr. LESLIE FOSTER contended, that had:: been for what had fallen from the 'knot:rahlc tleman who had just sat down, the people of would probably never have known of the of that measure—(Citeering from the 07Tosdiol Ministerial Benches). He did not mean zz s2v, ' the Honourable Gentleman's speech was calo l, . to give them warning of it; but had it not bees that, they would not have been practically a:qui& with it-;-(Hear). All Meetings in Ireland ue under cover, and therefore this Bill could not pr cally affect them. With respect to the tranquillit! that country, he would observe, that as it had decided that it should not be a local Bill, that No pot hold as an argument for its exemption. lie not know if the Honourable Gentleman w as vi that ambassadors had actually been sent to I from Manchester, and were now on their rerombu tions in that country ; and it was not to he sair . that they would omit any thing calculated to eu i the people to open acts of disaffection. Ile rea believed that this measure was as desirable a one 1 Ireland as for any part of Great Britain. Mr. PLUNKETT said, he had been srs called upon by the Honourable Member (MPH.' chinson), that, however much he might have fat clined, it was impossible for him to refuse to C his call. He did not know that it was usual is course of debates to call on any individual for bi sentiments thereon—(Hoar)--but he confessed 1," self so much of an Irishman, that he could mitre: . the challenge on the present occasion—(lleac, 4 ,. 'He felt grateful to the Honourable Gentleman lett: high mention he had made of his character athi: lents; the former, howevea, he was in no appi e- , sion was likely to suffer—(Hear, hear). Thar II nourable Gentleman, he observed, had his roe: politics, and no doubt the part he had tak6i 1 -* 'evening was in conformity with that line. But ' begged him to understand, that he (Mr. Pluni: hid also his, and he hoped his conduct on that qv• tion would agree with it. - He had often had cc sion to differ. from -him, and he never rememl , to have regressathis having done so—Wear, he,-, 'PM Honourable.Gentleman had talked much abo fik liberty and rights of the-people having been'' vided; but he would ask, what was that liberty, 11' those rights? He had been accustomed to consi4c Deny U" "'Owens quiersid per lejes 444 i.