Star. — London, England, 1819-05-01 00:00:00

le t qt ! 1 g i I i . . •! _ , , 4 , , i 1 1 1 * .„• I. • 11 'shall make me give a vote contr ary!o the I, the Establishment in the Church and State—(t Aver).—These, Sir, are Petitions from two bodies illsdividuals, who are entitled to the utmost : But when I see three or four Millions of Roman tholici approaching this House respectfully grounding their Prayer upon the justest of 1 must. avow, that I feel compelled to give them every redress—(Hear, hear).—The motion upon this ' subject, which stands for Monday nett. therefore, shall have my 'best and strenuous suppiwt , --(Hear, hear).— And, Sir, whatever may be sitisi•upon one side or upon the other, one thing at ill events is per fectly Year, that public opinion ii decisively in fa vour of the Roman Catholics—(Hear s 9 hear fines every part of the Rouse). 11 r. G. WALPOLE, in allusion to an observation which had fallen from the Honourable Member who, spoke last but one, remarked, that he was histori cally wrong, for that Roman Catholics sat in Parlia ment during the reign of Charles L The Petitions were ordered to Re on the table. Mr. HEATIICOTE presented e. Petition from the Clergy of Portsea against the Catholic Laid - on the Table. Mr. CRAWLEY presented a similar Petition from Iloniton.—Laid on the table. Lord FOLK STONE prestked a similar Petition from New Sarum. The Noble Lord said. that'while he perforined his duty in presenting this Petition s , he must positively declare that his ow* sentiments were entirely in favour of the just claims-of the•Catholisk —(ifear,isear).—Laid on the cable. Lord C. MANNERS presented a iimilar Petition from Henley.—Laid on the table. Mr. HUGHES presented a similar Petition from Wallingford.—Laid on the Table. Mr. ASTELL presented a similar Petition from Bridgewater.—He said he fully agreed with the Pe ., on the table. Colonel BAGWELL rose and said—" Sir, I hold ia my hand the Petition of the Roman Catholic Body of the County of Tipperary—a Petition whose mode ration, spirit, and reasonable statement , are calcu lated, in my humble judgment, to make the deepest impression on this Honourable House. They repre- sent, Sir, that experience has now amply proved, that our Establishments, both in Church and State, cannot possibly suffer even the shadow of an injury from the admission of Roman Catholics into offices of public trust. They state that persons professing the Catholic Religion do form a great proportion of the population of Ireland—that at the time when the measure of the Union between the two Countries map effected, they were led to entertain the greatest hopes that they would be immediately admitted to an equality in Civil Rights with their Protestant countrymen, and though these hopes have not been realized, they still expect that the Legislature in its justice and humanity will at length conclude this most desirable National measure—(Hear, hear).— The Petitioners, Sir, express their deep sense of gra titude for the late concessions made in their faro* in the Army and Navy; bat they humbly submit, that while the Catholic soldier is thus set free, the Catholic citizen should not remain degraded— (Heur, hear).—Sir, nothing can be more respectful, snore temperate, than this Petition. Ldo believe that nothing can be more just than the claims _they set forth. Fully convinced that a repeal of enact menu in force against Roman Catholics is necessary to the prosperity, the comfort, and the security of Ireland, I say, Sir, that I shall give the motion about to be made my warmest support--(ifear, hear). The Petition was ordered to be printed. A similar Petition was presented from the Catho lics of the Parish of Newport,—Laid on the table. Lord MILTON presented a Petition from the Clergy of the West Riding of York rut the Ca tholic Claims .-- Ordered to be printe Lord G. SOMERSET presented a Petition from the Clergy of Wydicombe, in Gloucestershire, against the Catholic Claims.—Ordeted to lie on the table. Lord SEFTON presented a Petition from the neighbourhood of Liverpool in favour of the Catholic Claims. The Mlle Lord expressed his sincere con currence in the prayer of the Petition.--Ordered to be printed. Mr. C. H. HUTCHINSON presente.l a Petition from the Catholic Inhabitants of the City of London derry. Praying a repeal of the Penal Code.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. FITZGERALD presented a Petition from the Lthabitants of Kellarny and Listowel to the same effect.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. PllOl3l presented a similar Petition from the Inhabitants of Kilcoole and Newcastle.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. MELLISH presented a Petition from the Parish of Edgware, which he stated to he signed by ,persons of all religious deitominations, agamst any change in the laws affecting their Catholic fellow subjects.—lt was laid on the table. Mr. PLUNKET presented Petitions from the Ca tholic Inhabitants of the Parishes of St. Ana's and St. Mark's, in the City of Dublin, praying . that their known loyalty and attachment to the British Coosa tution might entitle them to the same privileges and immunities as their Protestant fellow-subjects enjoy. These Petitions, he said, contained the names of 1500 individuals, whose respectability he knew, and whose loyalty, he could assert with confidence, was not to be exceeded by that of the same number of British subjects in any.gart of the empire. --(Hear, hear.) — Ordered to lie on the table. The Right Hon. Member then presented two Peti tions to the same effect, one. from the Catholics of the County of Fermanagh, containing 3,000 signa tures, and the other from the Catholics of the County , of Monaghan. The latter, be said, he had only re vived a short time before, but he had not the least 'doubt that the persons who had signed it were highly . respectable, and it was needless for him to state that he was decidedly in favour of the just claims which the Catholic Body again •stibmiued to the Legisla tor.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. W. PARNELL said, he held in ,bis hand a Petition in favour o(the Catholic Claims from the Pio tescants of Monaghan. The persons who had signed the Petition were sqrc Ity in number, and their, sta tion in life was irery respectable. • They weir above the rank of middle men, though they clid not rise to an %quality with persons of the first opulence iu the .Monagban, though perhaps the most Pro ttstAt county in Ireland, still has! less, religion in it . its••• It ~, 6iev such ar t .pas now presented, was to be submitted to the House; but he denied that it spoke the sentiments of 'the respectable Protestants of Monaghan, whose names, to the number of 3000, were subscribed to a petition for the very contrary object, that of praying that no further- concessions might be made to the Roman Catholics. In fact, from the character of the Petition before the House, he was only surprised how any Honourable Member could have the audit & to present it.—(Order, order.> . W. PARNELL did not know the criterion by wl.ich the Honourable Member formed an estimate of respectability ; but he (Mr. Parnell) could say, that the four names which appeared at the head of the petition might well speak for its general charac ter, as they were the names of four Presbyterian Clergymen, a class not inferior to any in the world for purity of morals and liberality of principle. The Presbyterian Clergy were the only body in. Ireland who were unbought by Government, which was ra ther a rare occurrence —(Naafi, hear , hoer).-.-And estimating respectability not by numbers, but by char ' teeter, he could place the 70 names in his Petition ; against the 5,000 names in the Petition of ! the Ho nourable Member; besides, it ought to be considered that the numerical strength of the County, even .if *favour of the Catholics, could not be taken,. as no aggregate meeting was 'allowed to be held there, un less under the immediate sanctions ef the Government. The same Mauasa moved, that the petition should not be received till he had an opportunity of making further inquiries respecting it; but the motion not bei ng seconded, the petition was ordered to lie on the table. - Mr. CANNING presented a petition from the mer chants and other inhabitants of Liverpool, against any further extension of civil privileges to the Roman Ca tholics. The Right Von. Member said, that though al ways solicitous to act sd far as he consistently could in unison with the views of his constituents, still he must dissent from the prayer of this petition, and was de termined to exercise his uncentrouled judgment upon the important question to which it referred. General GASCOYNE said, he should always give his strenuous support to the object of the petition. Ordered to lie on the table. Lord EBRINGTON presented a petition from the Protestants of the county of Devon, in favour of the Catholic Claims.—Ordered to lie on the table. ._ . The Marquis of TAVISTOCK presented a Peti tion from the Catholics of the County of Bedford, praying for relief.—Laid on the table. Lord BECTIVE presented a similar one from the Catholics of the County of Cavan.—Laid on the table. ILLICIT DIIITILLATIOF II Sir J. STEWART presented a Petition from the neighbourhood of Strabane, is the County of Ty rone, for a. repeal of the laws authorizing fines . , on Townlands for Illicit Distillation. • General HART presented a Petition from a per son of the name of M'Coneleugh, in the County of Donegal, who stated, that R ome time back • his father, a farmer in that County, h: d been fined in a certain sum, in consequence of tt e detection of a private Still in his neighbourhood, and that being unable to pay the fine, he was takca into custody by the Excise Officer, at the moment when he was la booting under a dropsy, conducted by a circuit of nearly fifty miles to the Gaol of Lisburne, in a dis tant County, where the unfortunate man expired -t-- (Hear, fiear).—The Excise Otlicer had offered to discharge him if he paid six Founds, but the.man was unable to pay it. The case was brought befoie the Grand Jury of the County of Donegal, who in 'quired into the circumstances of it, and afterwards transmitted it to the Bdard of Excise fn The Board returned no ansv, er. Under these cir cumstances, the Petitioner prayed for such redress as the House, in its wisdom, might think proper to extend. Eart MOUNTCHARLES corroborated the state ment of the Petitioner, so far as regarded the part which the Grand Jury, of which he was Foreman, had taken in this affair. He expressed a hope, that the House....wodd institute an immediate inquiry into the subject, and visit the delinquents with its amplest justice—(Hear, hear). The Petitions were laid on the table. Mr.W. STEWART presented a Petition from the Clergy, Gentry, and, Freeholders of the County of Tyrone, for a repeal of the Acts authorising Still Fines.—. Ordered to be printed. The Hon. Member alluded in strong language to the great hardships which the inhabitants of Ireland suffered from the operation of these fines, and observed that he had a Petition of one William Sharpe, who had been im prisoned by an Excise Officer for an alleged offence, oc which he had been acquitted by a Jury of his country. SCOTCH LAWS. Mr. BOSWELL postponed his Motion on the subject of Scotch Statutes to Wednesday. SAPS BE2D. Lord MILTON presented a Petition from the Ma nufacturers of Leeds, for a repeal of the Duties on the importation of Rape Seed. He said, the Peti tioners understood that it had bees in the contepi .plation of Ministers to repeal these duties long since, and they expressed a hope that that expectation would now be fulfilled. He gave notice, that he would at as early period move for leave to bring in a Bill for the repeal of those duties, if it appeared that Ministers did not intend to make his interference ,seres. unnecessary. Sir C. BURRELL made a few observations in oyposition to the contemplated measure. ,Lord LASCELLES was of opinion that not only the mautifacturing interest, but also that of the Agri- OtValists would be injured by the proposed mea as they could not cultivate their land without rape dust. • Mr. CURWEN thought on the contrary, that the' repeal would 1 4 afflestanatesial teseiee to the Agri .culturalists. aq • ).', -3. • , 1 Lord MILTON; ighitod- IsinssaK when the Billl was brought in, to de. sla in his !Wye* 6. get I duty.repealed, as nothing couldhe more injurioue the manufactures of the country, than to I lb Ilgpe scski Oil beg • Whale Oil, and since a be procured from the very necessary that some provided; as the Whale not found to answer thc Petition was lie on the table. )10TORS' ACT. _ Mr, ASTELL presented a Petition from Bridge water, for an alteration in the Insolvent Debtors Act. Referred to the Committee. PETITION OF KR. ctiAnr.its PITT. Lord MILTON presented a Petition from a Mr. Charles Pitt, of Westminster, complaining of par tiality and miscondtict on the part of the Returning Officer at the Election for the Borough of CameHord, when he (Mr. Pitt) was about to offer .himself . as a Candidate for the representation of that Borough ; and praying the House to take the circumstance , : of the case into its favourable consideration.—The Pe- tition being read, The SPEAKER said, that a Petitioner complain ing of an undue election, must be himself a voter or a candidate ; otherwise, according to Act of Parlia ment, his Petition could not he received; and though he had no doubt that the present Petitioner might have stood in the character of a Candidate, still that the intention of offering himself was all that was es - - pressed ; and that, too, not in the body of the Pen oon, but within interlineations, which necessarily b ird dered the petition itself inforinal, and . as suOh ,4 not, in Ilis opinion, be received. A desultory conversation then took place on the point of Order, in which Mr. W. DUNDAS, Mr. Tlialikt, Sir J:GRANAIII, Lord _ Mivropt t Mr. CAN NING, and Mr. Csioicza, tot,k a part, 'and the Petition was withdrawn, with- an ulderstaniing that one more correctly framed midst be presented within a convenient time, • LICENSING SYSTEM: Mr. G. LAMB presented a Petition from a certain individual, an inhabitant of the parish of Clerken well, against the Licensing System. The Petitioner complained of injuries done him by the Magistrates, who had deprived him of his license without any just• cause, though h' had raid £lOOO for his house and premises. —Read, and ordered to lie on the table. QUALIFICATION OF MEMBERS BILL. Mr. MILDMAY presented a Petition from the In habitants of Manchester; against the Qualification of Members' Bill.—Ordered to lie on the table. than any othet—factionAingl not este religion eye- tax upon the raw material. safety of rating.in the minds of the greater part ofh th ese _mach used as a substitute for _(Heel, 41sta% inhikkints, who arrogated to themselves a iegu,jaa supply could not b bodies of claim ty A exclusive loyalty.—(ffier, bear.) It w;s, GfeenAand Fishery, it was ye t respect. iteregit, with peculiar pleasure that he presented loth substitute should be pi imaii Ca- this P, • ' is it proved an exception from a most Oil from the South Seas was i illy, and T Auarter, to the spirit a factious into- purposes to which it was appl grounds, leranie, 4rhtch too generally prevailed in the county. then read, and ordered to lie i ire them A *EMBER said, he had understood that a Petition, INSOVENT DEBT • . • . ~/ • (NT, V V 1 SCOTCH BURGHS. Mr. HUME presented a Petition from the Inhabi tants of Inverary, in Scotland, praying for a Reform iri the Constitution of that Burgh, and of the other Scotch Burghs generally. The Honourable Member deprecated the erroneous idea that the people of Scotland were not agreed in wishing for municipal reform, whereas it was a fact, which could not be questioned, that at least 8-10ths of the people of that part of the empire were unanimous in calling for it. GRAI‘IPOUND ELECTION. Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved, that there be laid before the House a return of the number of persons convicted of bribery and corruption at the Gram pound Election.—Ordered. ILLICIT DISTILIATIOL General HART Toss, to move fur a Committee of tau' whole House, to sake into consideration the State of the Crown Land Roes in Ireland. Mr. DAWSON' rose to support the Motion ; and Was sorry to find that it was to be opposed by the present Government of Ireland. He would venture to affirm ' that there was no subject more calculated to excite the feelings of humanity than this ; and he hoped that the Statute Book would be ionized of many penal laws which clogged the administration of justice in the two countries. The law imposed a fine Of £2O for articles of illicit distillation on Town Lands in Ireland. The extent of Town Lands in Ireland varied, but 1000 acres might be taken as the averige; and a man was liable to a fine, if a vessel used for the - purposes of distillation should be fOund in the space of two square yards. The mode of ad ministerinf the law was still worse than the law it self. In England, every thing was in favour of the accused ; but in Ireland, should a flaw be found in the Indictment, the whole of the proceedings might commence de noro, and the informer was entitled to one half the fine, levied in many cases not on the guilty, but the innocent. The Revenue Officer, who could be no witness by the law of England, might give evidence in Ireland, and, upon con-_ viction, was entitled to one ball of the fine. A Still was discovered in a small Island in Lough Gar; and as the Island was not the property of any indi vidual, the six next adjacent Parishes were tined.— A still had also been detected in an obscure corner of some obscure suburb in Dublin, and the parishio ners had been fined, though totally ignorant of the existence of the still. Should an empty cask be found On the premises of any individual, he was liable to a fine of £lO, or imprisonment for six months. In the year 1810, the Operation of the Fine Laws had been susper7ded ; and in 1812 many of them had been re pealed. But the old law had afterwards been re enacted, and not only with a prospective, but a re trospective operation ; in consequence of whYch, many fines had been levied, that had in the first instance been suspended, and subsequently repealed. Such a procedure necessarily took away all confidence in the Legislature. Should a similar step-be taken to put down illicit distillation in Scotland, the Minister who should authorise it, would not remain in office for six months--(Hear, hear.)—The laws' of Alfred, that had been cited in vindication of the fining system, *as they made the .whole tithing liable for any injury that had been committed within its precincts, ap plied only to a simple state of society, and sinti lar laws existed among the Germans and the Jews.— But such laws were not applicable to a more refined state of society'; and such had been the opinion uf . Professor Millar and of M r . H ume . Th at l aw o f Alfred referred to the maks in se, and not to the mala prehibita, the class of crimes created by civil society. Alfred had recorded in his will, that the English should be as free as their own thoughts; and the same privilege ought to be extended to Ireland, since the two countries had beccime one kingdom. A fine had been levied on certain town lands, in consequence oftwo men being charged, though unjustly, with il licit distillation. , Soon after, the real offender con- 1 reseed his rant, and the Revenue Offi cer , o f t h e name bf i!itehinA, told the two individuals, th a t if t h e y in 'ban CSO, he would use his' i n t er e s t w i t h the •.: B oar d to procure a remis:.ion of the Ene. plaint was made to the Board of ti-c , Offi eer, when Mr. Hitchi hs was censur,,:; remained au Officer of Excise. He shouid the catduct of the Exci s e toward . those 1..17: them information. A certain individual 1 1 ; . 1 . information to Mr. 'filet, a Cemmisioaer when one htmdred stills were seized in c: The name of the individual was allowed tc and he war almost beaten to death. Wh en to bCd in conseque:ce of ,he bruises h , had r the whole of his cattle h a d been seized. 1' recovery he applied to be indemnified from the of his gaqty neighbours. The cattle sere accc seized upon his information, and as h e wat them away, the Excise Officer, of th e nam e quhoun, disclosed the name of t h e i n f ormer, same system still continued. A person of d of Logie called on Mr. Newman, a Corn : , • Excise, to /earn if any fines were due frrr n that het intended to take ; and was nicotine the fines had been paid. But soon after, ;;; were seized en account of the fines that had been paid. The cattle, though amo. , -risl• • siderable number, had only brought in t.; ; county had CO pay thirty guineas to the' The'law had completely tailed; and th.a dent, from a Report by Mr. Terry, a t of gataisg, from which the Honourahh : read; all extract. In consequence of th e iky had ao hesitation to take a false oath and the innocent, to protect thee,. 66mi:friars the consequences of an An Excite officer had been tried on a chaq ceiving a bribe of half-a-guinea to allow article to pass unseized ; and though it wa s on the trial, that, had the article been would have been entitled to £2, the Jury guilty. Soon after he wascalled upon by , Jury while in prison, who told him they were convinced of his innocence, but that they were mined always to return a verdict against an the Revenue. The sentence upon this mail a year's imprisOnment, and a fine of tv..e . lt, The death of Mr. Baker was a cle ar l a o o h fects of the presert system. That unfo: twiare man had been most active, both as a Ma ,, istrat a landlord, to put down illicit distill:l:l6n, - been inhumanly murdered in the view of tenantry and dependents. Wietout an armed the law was wholly inoperative. The . Gentleman here 'read a letter tti him from. Pletcherotating his opinion to - be wholly the present system, and ffin 'he had had portunity of seeing its inefficacy. The M: Mint s and the President - of the -Board of were both hostile to that system, He conci a - quotation from Sir J. Davies, that there tion more attached to equal and impartial than the Irish ; and if the Chancellor of quer should not deal tut equal and impartial he would be responslle for the con,,:lur GOD and Mari. Mr. LESLIE FOSTER said, he should opinions bet facts, and should look at the both in A financial and in a moral point of a financial point of view it was deter 'that the amount of the Reienue from , £1,300,000, being one-fourth of the whole of Ireland, and had increased 19 per cent. last year. The Malt Duty amounted to and had, within the same time, increased cent. so that of a revenue of five millions, • and a half arose from the Spirit aad In the course of the last year 1300 illicit, been put down ; but in the course of the yea:. 1811, and 1812, before the present system I. revived, no fewer than 19,000 illicit stills! destroyed. The number in the first of those being • 6,538 ' • in the next, 6,649 ; and in 5,816. For that purpose an armed force needful, and much tnorc violence had been than under the system that had since been acted Still the evil continued to increase, and the'. Ireland had in% manner become an immense lery. It was found that the great distillers c carry on their trade on account of and a most respectable Committee of that House 41 reported, that to put a stop to the practice of iincit distillation, it was necessary to fine town lands,— In consequence of that Report being acted open, great blow had been given to illicit distillation. It the county of Longford, the number of fires had 1814, been 80 ; in the next year 81 ; but in thelet year had only been nine. In the county of Cavan !!-e fines had in the last year been only 36. In the conuty of Fermanagh,' .the number of fine; in 1814, was 144 Fin 1515; 143 ; but in the last year only 41. — The case had been similar in most of the other counties, with: the'exception of Tyrone and Donepi. In the lattel-,•ln 1811, the fines had been 717, in the next year 960; and.in the . last year 550. InTytner, the fines in 1811 were-176, and in the last year Iti6. Upon the whole, the timber of fines in 1814 LP been 3554;'* - irt . the last year only 1102. Out cl thirty.twer counties illicit distillation had bean almot wholly put down in twenty-three, and in the oda nine was confined to the mountainous distri c t;. It ar neared from the evidence of Mr. Logic and Mr. Cub:, that 5i illi& • stills had been voluntarily given uo and that agreements had been entered into to prase cute offenders, should the present system be alloyed to remain in fore. In I SIG, a man of more zeal thaa discretion, had been appointed by the Board of ho cise of Donegal, and acts of oppression had been cow mitted. But since that time lie and two more, WO had imitated his ex:tmple, had been disaikse , i.- - The amount of fines f . or illicit distill.oion in ;i.: county of Doneval been C 481., Ishii: the anion , of cess duty inyosed by the Grand Jury meat, h•td, in the same time, been 4:3i!,00J. :; the moral effects, the account of Justice Fl etcher a y. - peared to him to he overcharged, and certainly di:- kred from his own experience. The exp ense formerly amounted to .C. 50,000 a-year, was then on.( fifteen thousand pounds. • Sir IL PARNELL thought anew plan ought to adopted. Mr. W. POLE contended that illicit distillciies had increased under the present system. inion. Lord MOUNTCHARLESwasofthesame op Mr. V. FITZGER A LI) defended the present s• tern. Should a qUestion of revenue and morals come in conflict, no doubt could arise 2s to where the p fel-snce should be given. A Commi t tee of tlEtt 1104 1 _ , • most numerous and respe'c — rable, !I id called! ne. A • • r )r , • --c ray, , fit lould ese Wilt) :al :Jae s r net of L.. in 'd to . 1 Vhen 1 ' had re. ed. from • z re actor sv z , d • ' nam e o f . a of the , liis,is lte frrr n ; informed ' ter, I:is Li . at !tad alr a...ing to I I: 1 ; an l the tida l , I that tan s E! bl (leaflet'. f the law, • e oath to ect thei r nr i info . • • ' I charge,; allow as •: it wa s „ men s e i ze d , fury li me d rl by two of .. hey were f u r hey were de:e nst an ofFILT: s man had . meaty po t proof of th e IrtunateG Nlagistrate ,11:16n, and h ew of his , to armed fcr. he Itnnotiralf from..loi, 7holly averse' had arnpk Master cf rd of Con ' le concluded here was no ea mpartial jastin r of the Each', npartial justic e !quer.ces both:, hosld state r. at the 'nest;-. lint of vier. lying of r.otice. rt the Excise wz e whole term, r cent. since is ed to 0.. 9 39,000 termed 30 pc: llions, a milli ad Malte illicit atiN ha 4 • the yeas 1810, system bad ban : stills bad bas t of those yea" and in the. le, l force bad km I been emplovel been acted tip. snd the whole ci immense 2.isi!• stillers cenlJ uct licit distillat'ts; • that House i!al tactice of iincit town lands.— rxted open, distillation. 11 of i.•:es 1;206 ; but in thelet sty of Cavan !).-e 1. In the county in 1814, WAi eel f i: e e th a na e r only n7 oo dvponeri i , er in 4 l .l r et ; 50. ln - Tyrear, le last year 10;. ses in 1814 lapil r 1102. Out cl had been almost id in the sac Aistrict;. It ar e and Mr. Cubit, tarily given uf, xi into to passe- stem be allowed lITIOTe zeal than le Board of 1 had been coal- two more, wi.r , en in ;i.• hit the arnoi , . ; . I Jury Pitv2l.;., 3",000. :•1 ice Fletcher