Star. — London, England, 1819-06-08 00:00:00

e: circa! , I: • t he ilsl I: .1 tac Gh i„. 4:.01.111tit elern 113:11) too , thus CLI:T b e tOri 1 .„ : 11 r:u t;:e frol tl to AI liar Jae, • tam 11ntr..10 t o debt :he Ch; is , be to. off 1 hav ;them , h Itht Jistresz• AS 1 1 ; tr.c.re; I t dire te:v in the iron: eised to p riAm-1( .-pse net H:S: made ;oad an 0: u.e kith trey talon • trust the to hint dared, thi • rely Iron :i•eeiperie site of r:ormatio kninistr (; . (le mil Gentlemat thz uniderab He (Mr. I trn. The fir the C its the 1 ;old be ary thing them ; th( nude in t: rair dutii over v ago. In • trughl cvi I: the wo :et to bt ray but v tbsolately Noy. I the N conomy, say be in . Eat :here st:t Adz, ate side practical Mat chic That mo acetious lacause itr annu might ho tole ha( (.eat to trenchm, indent Ptrpo;e ... , trrn t econ IGO .-the ( wo { - ray , :' . .rne lit el; tht ;:riei ?gilt t( t.pe:tc( ''-pons( I ts the yll . Ilscer .talc! • rOpUr % . ;11" r' N ~e teat d inv,tance,, of the national currency—(FJ e a r ). ;4 t he value of money to the metallic stand , mint price must produce inconveniences, ~t , never denied that it would, how much I;l,onveniences he augmented by such a 0. L . ! , r oposed. That state of the currency eit an indirect tax—(hear, hear,)--for it ; ,1 people from paying the old taxes. It left ,ble to pay the same nominal amount, and nest retrench their expenses, and make an r on their comforts, to meet the weight of i n directly increased.—(Hear.) Th a t state row) . sholild then be taken into considera ,, t h e re was any definite art angement as to 10 ‘v proposed. The state of the country general stagnation of trade, the greatest w.e, an argument against new burdens, „I,e Minister would venture to neglect.— Tile distress of every class of manu- k v,c, unparalleled in the annals of alamity, and the table was loaded with Pe al the agricultural interests, praying for re- Lhe pressure of the Poor Rates; yet the an uch Petitions was—three millions of new mid hers.) Did the Ministers, said the _ . mo nrable Member, think the people stocks National feeling called aloud for re ,j what remedy did they propose? why, nc. , 'n ixes laugh and loud cheering.)-- industrious and suffering individual applied louse for a removal of those grievances ,troyeil his industry and his comforts, how lancellor of the Exchequer reply to him? 01,1 him, that if he had not been forced to IS millions of taxes some years ago, he lye been the happiest man in the wotld.— that he was about to replace three millions he would restore one-sixth of the happiness hvigh.) This, although a very logical Of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, was ,ult to the country, and a cruel mockery of hear,) but that distress, particu 7elate.i to the manufacturers, has been at be glossed over ; but it could be done so ti,-.liiishing speeches had been made of our but tie glaring refutation of facts was no be re,isted. The remedy proposed by the Jr al th Exchequer, might be said to con •ce component parts—first, came a Sinking taxes; but he (Mr. Tierney) would put it what the Right lion. Gentleman was in place in the rear, namely, retrenchment and Checrs.) The Government had no right to , w taxes. until they could chew that they all the reductions which the public estab- would allow, and which the state of the remanded---;Cheers.) They had no right tnd irritate the people with undiminished ex :e, and its consequent extortion—(Hear.) her hand, it was their duty first of all, to that they had made every practicable di o; expenditure, befure they asked the nation tern with the resources of a fresh expenditure. iself, the Right Honourable Gentleman de la partly from conversing with others, and an his own experience, and particularly from ience of that part of his life, when a better . .e.alt.h allowed him more opportunities of ion, he was convinced that an economical istration could easily save to the Public a sum aillion per annum. The Right Honourable tan (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had 'tat he had discovered a way of making a tble saving in the Collection of the Revenue. Tierney) answered, that he would not trust Noble Lord (Castlereagh) when he moved Committee of Finance, had stated, that it last time the services of that Committee be required; yet they did not investigate - but the Estimates which were laid before ley had not shown what reduction could be the Public Offices ; they had not discharged ies in the same manner that the Committee which Lord Colchester presided some years' the Committee of the Noble Lord (Castle ;ery thing came from the Minister himself. work of reductions, the present Miniiters were be trusted ; they had done nothing in that what the transition from war to peace made ly necessary, with regard to the Army and He (Mr. Tierney) in his Motion on the State Nation, did not go through the details of y, because in that House it would in such a impracticable ; but he could at all times prove re was no real spirit of economy in the pre ,drninistration. The Gentlemen on the oppo - had asked for some specific statements of reduction—one had been lately tried, tch related to the two Lords of the Admiralty. motion had produced a laugh among those' and economical Gentlemen, and why ? tLir salaries were but two thousand pounds an. But whatever the amount of the salary lave been, it was the principle that was inva :--1/ca))—and the manner in which that prin rid, on that occasion, been treated, was suffi shew that there was no real desire of rc anent in the Officers of die Crown. But, if the mien thought it beneath them to reduce, for the 'of saving small sums to the country, he could them where an expense worthy of their libe momy might be avoided—he alluded to a re of the Army—(Cheers). The present Army Ai great for the necessities, and much too great constitution of the country. A small Army rould tend to save the nation frcirn ruin, and ton would :'ways give the Government a large 'hen it really wanted it. But there were, ittle difficulties in parting with patronage, that le surest, which supported, in defiance of all iety, extensive establishments : but before the try proceeded to tax a single beggar, he had a to ask if every possible diminution of public :e had been previously made ?—(Hear). The ses of the Ordnance could not be reduced, mi te Army was diminished. A great reduction, it had been made in the Navy, but then it was ;illl respect to sailors, but did not extend to the co:alected with the Naval Department ; but :vf:r reduction had been made in the Navy, was no reason why the Army should not un diminution to a similar extent. The same roans which existed between them in time of ,hould be observed in time of peace.-- Noble Lord was in the habit of giving inagnifi descriptiou4 of what the present Adranustration had achieved for the tranquillity of Eumpe, and he thought the Noble Lord ought to give an earnest of the value of his labours, by shewlng that he was not afraid (Loud cheers.) The Right Honourable Mem ber then adverted to sonic more topics of economical discussion, and stated, that most of the Colonies, if I properly expenses of managed , thel relvi mig i government; contribute vernment;r to tkewi se defray h that the' consolidation of offices would make a great saving to the Public. There was no necessity for a third Se cretary of State. He (Mr. Tierney) had proved it to the House long ago; but his ideas on that subject were not met with corresponding good will on the other side. A t hi r d S ecretary of State was indeed as unnecessary as 'a third Archbishop—(A laugh.) The Secretary for the Home Department had very little to do : he might take part of the business of the Se cretary of the Colonies, and the President of the Board of Controul the remainder—he might take at least Ceylon and the Mauritius, which were very near the limits of his present jurisdiction—(hear . 1 ) — The Right Hon. Gentleman then asked if there were no room for retrenchment in the Horse Guards? and if a Secretary at W ar was i n di spensa bl e i n time of peace? lie declared he liked liberal establishments as much as any man, when they could be afforded ; but the Administration should now behave like a pri vate individual who is really anxious to escape from embarrassments. Ministers had their holidays, their festivals, their prancing and their capering, and now they shonld pay for their amusement.—(Laughter and cheering.)- No - Administration ought to stand a single day which would not adopt the principle of reduction to the utmost farthing.—(Cheers.) Money should not be taken from the public which was not repaid in service. He did not wish to confine the amuse ments of Ministers ; but in the present state of the country, it was necessary that through all the de partments of State, from the highest to the lowest, sacrifices must be made to the necessities of the times. (Hear, hear.) To be sure, the present Ministers were the wisest, the most consistent, and the greatest Statesmen that this country ever produced ;—(A laugh)--but with all deference to their talents and sagacity, had his (Mr. Tierney's) motion on the State of the Nation been acceded to, the House should have been 'then put in the position, on the 20th of May, which it was now occupying on the 7th of June, and which was urged by Ministers as too late for giving the proper consideration of the subject. But if the present motion were granted, the security f's,r retrenchment would be gone, for an Administra tion that would not retrench for the public—would not do yo for the fund-holders. It was in the nature of the present Government to abhor economy ; they always held out false hopes, but nothing serious was done ; the situation of the country ought to be fairly met. It would be better that the Sinking Fund should be taken altogether to the public service than that it should be attempted to raise what remained of it to five millions by the plan proposed. The expenditure of the last war was very much dwelt upon, bat he (Mr.Tierneyl was confident that under a really efficient Administration that war might have been managed at half the .expense. The Chancellor of the Exche quer had come forward to tell us of the awkward cir cumstances of the last three years, and to propose an expedient which was to place us all in a state of pros perity ; but, said the Right Honourable Gentleman, I have no confidence in him whatever, nor without some stronger arguments than had yet been adduced, can I agree to the voting any new taxes.—The Rig ht Honourable Gentleman then concluded amidst loud cheering, by moving the Previous Question. Lord CASTLEREAGH considered the Right Ho nourable Gentleman had put the question on its true grounds. The question now to be decided laid in a small compass ; it might be 'comprised under three heads—first, whether it was necessary the country should make an exertion to relieve itself from its present Financial difficulties—secondly, if necessary, to what extent the exertion should go--and thirdly, at what time the exertion should be made ? The Right Hon. Gentleman had not said exertion was un necessary, but he had said he had no confidence in Ministers, and therefore the country ought not to have any confidence in them, and they ought, there fore, to be turned out—(Hear, hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had alluded frequently to his mo tion of a former night; he was not surprised that the Right Hon. Gentleman should feel sore on that sub ject ; it was in human nature that he should do so. The Right Hon. Genetleman, no doubt, felt angry with that part of the House, who had opposed that motion—every Gentleman who had voted against that motion, no doubt, stood very low in the estima tion of that Right Hon. Gentleman, if they were not set down in his black book for ever—(Hear, hear.) The Ilonourable Gentleman then stated, that if the House would consent to turn out his Majesty's pre sent Ministers, he would have condescended, though to his own inconvenience and to the interruption of all his habits of life, to have taken a part in the Mi nistry to be formed—(hear, hear). He doubted very much, if the Right Hon. Gentleman had attained the situation he with so much modesty apparently de clined, he would, with all his exertions, have done more than the present Administration had done. The Right Hon. Gentleman, however, was so much offended at the support given to Administration oil that occasion, that he never would give them his countenance. He (Lord Castlereagh) regretted the Right Hon. Gentleman's hostility ; but he had never expected either his support or countenance, and r therefore felt no disappointment at his declaration — (Hear, hear). The Right Hon. Gentleman again, on this occasion, accused the Administration of want of economy, and of having done nothing towards re trenchment. He denied the charge. Ministers had studied to introduce economy Into all the great branches of expenditure ; but they had refused to agree to the Right Hon. Gentlema n ' s proposition for doing away the two Lords of the Admiralty and the third Secretary, and the Right Hon. Gentleman now *again re-told the tale he had so frequently repeated, and which had so frequently been negatived by the House ; but the Right Honourable Gentleman had now taken a new ground. He brought forward one charge in bulk—the Army—the Army was too large altogether. He must protest against this course, and against the parliamentary conduct of the Ri g ht h on ourable Gentleman. If the Right Honourable Gentleman considered the Army too large, why did he not oppose the Vote for it ?—( Ifear, hear, hear.) 'Where had the Right Honourable Gentleman been, and how would he justify this neglect and breach of duty to his Constituents in particular, and. to the Ern- progress as to the Bank, an actual tax to a consideras pire in general ?—(Hear, hear ' hear)—The Noble ble amount would be imposed on the publie. It was Lord then pro cee d e d to defend the conduct of the agreed that the Bank should resume Cash Payments, Administration, as related to the Committee of Fi- and it was also generally allowed that this would nance, who, he contended, had never relaxed in cause a depreciation in the price of all kinds of com their efforts. The Right Hon. Gentleman had de. modities, of rents, of labour, &c. of at least five per dared Ministers unworthy of the confidence of the cent. perhaps 10 per cent. and thus nine-tenths of the , country. If they were so, he called on the House people would be rendered less able to pay their taxes to declare it, and t. r up to the foot of the Throne than they now are. Yet, at this time, when the cur and declare that opinion—(Hear, hear).—lt was their rency of the country was about to suffer this flues duty, as guardians of the public interests, to do so, tuation, the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed' and he called on them to discharge their duty. He to lay on taxes, all of them money, and not 4d ea was convinced that the Administration, of which he &rein duties ; for this reason he considered this as formed a part, would not be so base or so degraded the most improper time of imposing new taxes. as to hold their situations after they had lost the con- It had been charged on his Right Honourable fidence of the country—(Hear, hear).—But if the Friend; that he had made his charge general, and country continued to give Ministers their confidence, had adduced no particular instance. He denied the they must also give them the means to meet the dif- charge on the part of his Right Hon. Friend. His ficulties which they had to encounter—(llear, hear). Right Hon. Friend had pointed out the expense of The Right Honourable Gentleman had alsh accused collecting the Revenue. And here he wished to ask, his Right Honourable Friend of intending to break whether the Excise Office had mit offered to collect faith with the public creditor, by an invasion of the the Duties at an expense of only 5 per cent. which Sinking Fund as established by Mr. I'itt. He denied last year cost 13i to the Public—(lfear, hear).—He that his Right Hon. Friend had any such intention, was persuaded a saving of £500,000 might annually or would ever snake such a proposition. The Right be made to the Public on this head. He must also Honourable Gentleman had also repeatedly adverted allude to the offices paid by poundage, these amoun to what had been said by him (Lord Castlereagh) on ted to about £120,000 a-year, and gave Ministers a a former night respecting the surplus of £2,000,000. patronage they ought not to possess. lie alluded to He was still prepared to argue that subject with the the Distributors of Stamps, the Collectors of Asses- Right Honourable Gentleman, and to maintain that sed Taxes, and the Collectors of the Land Tax. He 'there was , that surplus still. He contended that some- was persuaded that two-thirds of this sum might thing more ought to be done, and greater exertions well be saved ; but he knew the Noble Lord could now made in a time of peace, to prepare the country not carry these things into effect—he could not—he to meet any future war: and this was one ground dared not. The Noble Lord might vapour about for the proposition, that a surplus of five millions was his major ities ; but he could not, he dared not do his necessary. Adverting to the Consolidated Fund, and duty : if he did, he would fear to meet his Clerks in what had been said on that subject, he contended office, mho supported him here and elsewhere— that that branch of our financial system had never (Hear, hear)?—And why, because he did not possess been in a more flourishing state; but the burthens that which alone could enable him to do his duty— upon it were also greater than they had ever formerly the confidence and love of his country—(Hear, hear, been; that Fund wanted also more substantial sup- hear).—The Noble Lord might talk of the 350 Gen port ; and he should be prepared to state, that this tlemen who supported him on a party question, and country would be in a proud financial state indeed, endeavour to induce them to believe they were now' even with a clear Sinking Fund of eight millions; also bound to support him—(Hear, hear, hcar+— how much more so then must it be, when it was But he warned the Noble Lord this majority was an considered that the high-minded people of this coun- uncertain one, on which he would find he could not try, should they receive insult from any foreign depend. He had artfully attempted to persuade thoso Power, had a fund of upwards of fifteen millions Gentlemen, that unless they supported his Majesty's annual in reserve which they could immediately ap- Ministers, as they were now bound to do, their for propriate to the public servive. This country had mer vote intlieir favour was a mere mockery. But indeed shewed what exertion it could make when, he (Mr. Brougham) would ask them whether the, on the return of Bonaparte from Elba, the House people 'could now pay more taxes? Whether'their. had (in less time than the present discussion had taken constituents were in a condition that would render up) given to government a renewal of the Property- the imposition of fresh burthens short of injustice and Tax, to furnish a fund for carrying on the new War. cruelty? Or whether the circumstances ofthe country. The Noble Lord defended the proposition made to did not forbid instead a encouraging the attempt? the House by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.— (Hear, hear.) the Noble bard had boasted of our The Right Honourable Gentleman had called the resources, and said, the Property-tax would in an present a wretched Administration, because they had instant give us 15 millions. True it was, the Pro not at an earlier period of the Session laid the state of perty-tax would give us 15 millions, but it would the financial difficulties of the country before Parlia- only give us that sum if we now husbanded our re ment. He had repeatedly declared to the House that sources, spared the people, and preserved their confi the difficulties were great, and he had always expec- dente in the Government and the House undiminished: ted and anticipated the necessity there would be of Mr. HUSKISSON defended the conduct of the' laying the whole before Parliament and the country. Chancellor of the Exchequer, who, he, said, had acted He was free to confess, this was not the period he wisely in groundinithe Resolutions he had proposed weufd have selected—he would rather have delayed on the plea of necessity ; and he trusted as such it would it till the beginning of the next Session—but circum- have been met in a manly manner by the Gentlemen stances had arisen which had rendered the delay im- opposite. It was, perhaps, prudent at the termina; possible. The House would be aware to what he al- , tion of the war, to apply palliatives, and to lessen luded. The Inquiry into the Affairs of' the Bank had the burthens of taxation as much as possible ; but it brought the whole subject of Finance under discus- would he impolitic and unbecoming the spirit of this sion ; and that having occurred, he thought it hotter great Nation to continue such a system. We were to submit the whole subject to discussion, than to al- called upon, both by interest and honour, to make low the Session to terminate and Parliament to sepa- the proposed exertion. The Powers on the Continent rate, leaving the public mind in a feverish state—to I were making such exertions. Prussia, Austria, Ame discuss in Parochial and County Meetings, whether rica, and France, had all established Sinking Funds. there should or not be any new Tax? The only quesslThe latter Power; notwithstanding all the exertions tion now was, whether the country was called on to and sacrifices which she had been called on to make, make any exertion? and whether any time more pro- had this year set apart a Sinking Fund equal in per than the present could be found for that exeraion?! amoeht to one per cent. on her whole debt ; whilst He trusted the House would this night decide that all we were now required by his Right Hon. Friend question, and that the decision would be similar to to do was to make our Sinking Fund bear little that on a former night, when the question was— 'snore than one half that proportion to our debt.— whither the Right Honourable Gentleman and his The Right Honourable Gentleman also contended, friends, or the present servants of the Crown, should that the Consolidated 'Fund called in an eminent de in future deserve the public confidence—(Hear, hear)? gree for support ; since the consolidation of the two Mr. BROUGHAM was ,certain no one, hearing Revenues of England and Ireland, it had become uri' only the Noble Lord's speech, could form any idea equal to its object. Previous to the termination , of of that made by his much misrepresented Right Ho- the war there was generally a surplus of upwards of nourable Friend. By the Noble Lord's speech it three millions ; in the last two years there had been would appear, that his Right Honourable Friend had a deficiency of one million eight hundred thousand said he did not object to taxes, but only to the Noble pounds. The additional burthen thrown on the Fund Lord's imposing them, but that he, and not the Noble by the consolidation of the two Revenues, was one Lord, should put his hand in the people's pockets. million six hundred thousand pounds annually, an 4 Had his Right Honourable Friend said any such for this no provision had been made by Parliament ; thing ?—No. His Right Honourable Friend had, in- and we had for the last two years depended on the deed, said, taxation might be desirable at a future Bank of England to advance the' sum deficient, end period, when the country should have recovered a pahlic credit had in consequence depended an the little from it's overwhelming difficulties. The Noble Directors of die Bank of England, a state of things Lord now proposed to burst in on the people, still inconsistent, and not to be reconciled with the suffering, and only beginning to recover, and to have honour of this great Empire. The power of the a prospect of enjoying that peace they had purchased country lay in the establishment of the Sinking Fund with their treasure and their blood, with new taxes, in 1786. It was' the duty of Parliament to male He could not refrain from declaring his opinion, that provision for a diminution of the public burthent this proposition was not only indecent but atrocious. in peace, and also to meet the exigencies of war— . The Noble Lord had also accused his Right Hon. Though two great armaments were gtted oat from Friend of wishing to raise a clamour against the 1786 to 1792, yet in the latter year Mr. Pitt came Chancellor of the Exchequer, char ging him with a down to Parliament with a proposal for the remission breach of faith with the public creditor. His Right Of taxes. The first tax was an Assessed Tax on Fe. Honourable Friend had made no such attempt. Yet male Servants; the second, on Carts and Waggons ; there had been an invasion of the Sinking Fund, as the third was a Tax on Cottages, w hich he hoped never it had been established by Mr. Pitt, subsequently, in- to see revived ; and the fyi th, WAS a Tax of a half deed, altered by Lord Sidmouth in 1802, and after- penny on Tallow Candles. The country must look to wards again by the Noble Lord in 1813. The Sink- the means of meeting a foreign war should it unfortu ing Fund ought now to have been '2l millions, in- nately arise. By the resumption of Cash Payments stead of which it was now proposed to make a fund by the Bank of England, and the other measares for of five millions. Was not this a breach of faith with the strengthening public credit, the best provision the public creditor ? He did not complain of it ; would be made for the , peace and prosperity of the nor did he wish the public creditor to consider it as country. 'He looked, .with confidence to the time a matter of complaint. It was one arising out of ni- when the Sinking Fund would be in the proportion cessity—Thenecessity of paying our Army and Navy, of one per cent. to the National Debt. There was no &c. Sm. it was a breach rendered nec essar y b y circum- breach of public faith in the proposed application of stances. But he must take care, as far as his voice the Sinking Fund. In time of war, more was to be would go, to prevent a breach of faith with the ye°. borrowed than was redeemed, and in peace more ple, by imposing taxes they were not able to pay. He would be redeemed than borrowed. In answer to a thought only two causes could operate to justify the question from an Honourable and Learned Gentle imposition of new taxes. These were the preservation man, he would state, that the Loan of the of national honour, or the breaking out of a new war. provided wo uld a b b e chada remissionfor from the Taxes of In his opinion the people ough t to be a l lowed to re. The Public cruit their own Coffers before, for the sake of Stock- lions of Taxes,andhe s n e c s. hence had lt b an ad in ba c e ie e s brokers, any attempt was made to recruit the coffers• pay the proposed la of the State. The Honourable Gentleman then pro- collect the ra Cu r st s n a m v s in b g y v t.h ..o c ui li d oa a r c d cr o u f e E ri : cimeepdmedperto Wchargue could that o was tlthe im the po m si o u s g t b hence utth e a p ge lan was utterly impracticable, b e present c h os e p e r n o the . new taxes, since, by the operation of th e p lan now in the ham oppressive consequences, and • \ i 1 ,' 4 °4 i 1 I;',, i 1 '1 4 4 11 i 1 4 1, I ~.4 1 1 4 . 4 It. ' 1 t . the next year of the present. r nineteen mil- ase:d ability to • i 'n proposed to I ' 'rise, and that to the Public ; , would lead to I would throw iss