Star. — London, England, 1816-03-21 00:00:00

'Mini in the country could reel mere cordial delight than himself (Hear, hear) —He still firmly be lieved, however, that this was not so great a Min quithwient as might he supposed. The proditeWthe War Malt Duty, he believed, was about £2,7(10.000• This stun would be made up by the increased mar ket for barley. The lower classes would be able to enjoy a wholesome beverage, at a much less expense than heretofore--the consumption of malt beer would consequently increase, and the old duty would be proportionately more productive.. There were also advantages of a more satisi,ictoi y nature, and these would arise from the renewed cultivation of those lands which were alone capable of growing barley, rye, and inferior oats, and could not be used in the growth of wheat, which had been thrown out of use altogether by the weight of the present taxation. — (Hear, hear, hear). —The consequences to the farmers in Norfolk. where the land was poorer than any other part of Great Britain, would be peculiarly important, as they would be able to bring into cultivation land which heretofore would not recompense them fpr their labour. While on his legs, he could not help ad verting to an expression used by the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) in the course of the discussion' of the Income Tax, which, however objectionable, be could not but think was in some measure to be justified. He alluded_ to the expression,“ an ignorant impatience of taxation." The Noble Lord had, on a recent occa sion, been down in the county of Norfolk, and from - the distresses, of which he must have been an eye-wit nes:, no doubt saw a considerable degree of impatience. This impatience, however, had been carried to a length in two instances to which he was about to ad vert, of which perhaps the Noble Lord might have beard—namely, the fact of two of his own tenants, Irom the impatience, which they felt under the bur dens by which they were oppressed, having actually destroyed themselves. This certainly was an igno rant impatience, which justified the Noble Lord's remark—as these men had shewn an ignorant iinpa tiecce in not waiting to see what Parliament would do to relieve their distresses. The Hon. Gentleman • concluded by saying, that no man rejoiced more than he did in the intention announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. . Lord CAS TLEREAGH was sorry, at a time when a communication so satisfactory as that which bad been made by his Right Honourable Friend, that any disposition should exist to revive a subject which could be attended with no good effect, and to allude to an expression which was solely used with reference to Gentlemen on that side of the House (Opposition) and was not at all applied to persons without doors. He did complain of a disposition to clamour down a question which his Majesty's Ministers had proposed, I upon grounds which were afterwards to be explained, and which, notwithstanding the decision of the House, he still thought was thb best relief that could be af forded to the distresses of the country— (Hear, hear.) He had complained of the clamour within doors, and not of the clamour without. He repeated, however, that this was an unfortunate occasion to allude to that complaint. With respect to the particular occur. sence in Norfolk Alluded to by the Hon. Alember, he bad never hard of it. Mr. BRAND was certain that no one could be pore thankful to the Right Hon. Member for his pro position than he was; but he wished to know if it was understood when the tax teas to expire I The Act specified that it should cease twelve months after the Treaty of Peace. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he should have a proposition to submit to Par liament on the subject, and till the time of its being laid before the House he could - only state, that he be lieved the Act, would cease in July. Lord CASTLEREAGH wished the Honourable Gentleman who had a motion of importance to bring before the House to-morrow, would postpone it to some other day, as he believed that many Members would be prevented from attending who would very gladly have been present. Mr. WESTERN had been induced to believe that to-morrow would have been a proper day for bring ing forward his motion, but as the Noble Lord had given him reason to suppose that many Members would be absent, and as he wished to secure a full attendance, he should poitpone his motion till to morrow se'nnight. The SPEAKER then read the motion, u That the, order for the Committee on the Agricultural state of the country be now read." General R. FERGUSON thought ~it his duty to state on the part of Scotland, that the people of that country would be much relieved by the discontinu ance of the war Malt Tax. Mr. PONSONBY was much gratified by the pro position of the Right Hon. Gentleman, but he had been gratified because that proposition proceeded from the efforts of the people, and was a concession to their exertions. He hoped what had happened would be a lesson to Ministers, and it would shew the people, that when they were true to themselves' and would come forward, and with firmness declare their sentiments, their representatives would not be far behind them, but would compel the Ministers of the Crown to yield to their interposition. The Right Hun. Gentleman could not find in his heart to part with six millions, when he was implored and in treated to discontinue the Property Tax, but now lie could manage to afford the relinquishment of eight , sudlions. Fie hoped he would find himself under the necessity of relinquishing more taxes, and be hoped lie would . be obliged to abolish a great deal of the extravagant expenditure which bad been the oc casion of most of those taxes. He likewise hoped the people would. follow op the advantage they bad gained, and would petition till they had brought a system of economy into practice instead of being only promised. Lord CASTLEREAGH was surprised that the Honourable Gentleman should attribute the conduct of his Majesty's Ministers to the exertions of the peop Isle, and not to the general desire that'might always be se en to prevail with them, of doing every thing they could for the public bene fi t. It might easily be perceived that his Right Honourable Friend would be compelled to take a loan, and there would be no difference in the principle if he took it for six millions or for eight millions. The war Malt Tax might have bee% discontinued if a loan could have been avoided, but when the,great landed proprietors had relieved themselves from the Property Tax, and by so saying be meant nothing invidious, thew was au additional . • , • . 4 motive for its diseontistima. He had me donbt bet I that it would he'si greit relief to tip leaded in terest; istcl to the loWer order of the ;Jennie,. but he had - no hesitation in - saying. that Parliament had given an improper decision upon the Property Tax ; and it wad his firm conviction, that if that measure had been agreed to. the finances of the country would have been upon a stronger and much more stable foundation. Mr. GOOCH exptessed his complete satisfaction at the conduct of the Right Honourable Gentleman. He had sometimes been inclined towards Ministers, but his future attachment to them should be regu lated by their adherence to a system of the strictest economy. Mr. BROUGHAM said, that whatever effect the words of the Noble Lord might have had upon him, they were almost obliterated from his mind and re collection, by the joy which he felt on hearing the' undisguised sentiment which proceeded from the Honourable Gentleman who had just sat down ; for if he ihauld redeem the pledge he had just given, and if others should imitate his admirable example, and his truly honest declaration of a principle, except by the support of which no man could honourably assist Government in times like the present, the country was really saved. It the House should act upon ntch a principle, the Crown would be com pelled to do its duty, and to retrench when public necessity required it. He conceived the Honourable Member's determination to be, that he would sup port Government as long or as often as he saw them attend to the promise of economy, held out at the beginning of the Session, and if the House followed his example that promise would be fulfilled. The Noble Lord had endeavoured to shew why the Right Honourable Gentleman had thought it necessary to discontinue the war malt tax ; but the real reason was plain—the people had expressed their sentiments. The Noble Lord must be aware that that was the rea son ; for if it was not for that, the Right Honourable Gentleman might press the Property Tax again.— bleasures had beet br ,, ught before the , House which had failed, but which had been carried when again brought forward. But then it had been said that the malt tax was oppressive, and that it was to be taken off, and the money taken in a loan, because such a proceeding would not alter the principle. The Mi nister, he thought, was bound in duty and .in con sistency to take off any other oppressive tax under which the people laboured, and to take the money instead of it from the loan. He might discontinue the Leather Tax, .ind add £500,000 to the loan. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained. He thought that if the Honourable Mem ber had attended to his arguments, he would have seen the fallacy of what he had just been saying. Having been obliged by Parliament to relinquish a system that he thought the best, he considered that it would make little difference to add two millions to' the loan, and it was only on such a consideration that the Malt Tax was to be relinquished. Sir FRANCIS BURDET I' partook of the 'gene ral joy which was telt on this occasion, and was ti.sppy that two birds, as it were, had.been killed with one stone.—He confessed, that when the Noble Lord rose, be was induced to believe his Lord ship was about to fulfil the pledge which he had giver[ in the early discussions on the Income. Tax, that he would " stand and tall with the measure." (16er, laser .) — He (Sir Francis) however, appre hended, he had been mistaken in the sense in which he understood the Noble Lord ; for, instead of the Noble Lord falling with the tas, it appeared that he was to stand, although the tea tell l—( Hear, Hear Mr. MEI.I4IIEN could not silently hear the Noble Lord say that the landed proprietors had re lieved themselves from the tax. He wished the House would remember that the Property Tax had most heavily oppressed the poor. Lord LASCELLES was much gratified with the Right Hon. Gentleman's proposition. He did not think it becoming to advise the people to Petition still more when they had already had such concessions. Mr. BROUGHAM explained. He had not meant that the people might be relieved from taxes in ge neral, he had alluded to the Leather Tax only. Mr. HART DAVIS agreed with the Noble Lord. He was much gratified by the measure proposed by the Right Hon. Gentlemen. Sir J. NEWPORT thought the sentiments of some Geittlemen savoured of revolutionary doctrines. He thought it proper that a man should attend to the sentiments of his constituents. Mr. ROSE could not sit still and hear it said, that the Property Tax did affect the poor as much as the rich—this he utterly denied—and no Gentleman who considered the state of great land•bolders and stock. holders would my, that they were net more relieved by the abandonment Of the tax than the poor. He admitted, that the middling class of traders were much oppressed, from the exposure of their affairs, which necessarily took place under the provisions of the late Act, but he still maintained, that it was the rich who suffered most from its existence.—(Hear, hear.)—This was not the proper time to discuss the merits of the Income Tax—but the period would arrive, when the public would agree with him, that it was the best measure that could be devised.— , (Hmr, hum) Mr. S. ORTLEY still retained the opinion which be had all along maintained in respect to the propriety of levying a fax on Property. He consi dered that it was impolitic to give it up, as it afforded the means of raising the supplies within the year. The 7 E oaonrablc Gentleman denied that he was bound to give up his seat if be differed with his Con stituents. If that was to be the mode of proceeding, the country was no longer a free one.---(Neer, km.) What wet independence ?—the exercise of a delibera die judgment according to the conscience of a man. If any Member surrendered us ien that, he became a mere delegate...iNear, Ur. —He must protest. against the doctrine, however tlemen might up hold it on the opposite benches. He would do his duty honestly, and'. would not be afraid to meet his' Constituents. Lord MILTON concurred in most of what had fallen from the Honourable Gentleman ; but he must contend that, as a Member of Parliament, he 'was bound to obey the wishes of the nation. Ministers, and those who supported them. had often appealed to the mob; their only reliance for support was by such an appeal. ' The Noble Lord contended, that the Property Tax affected the poor, as well as the rid. Us man had 40r45 a year in the funds, be • 1 • peg the Hew then eon . id the ben' Odium (Mr. Rose) say, tliit the *filer Were Aft al lected by the tax . .? He maintained that the rich'paid out of their luituries; the poor; by taking a tenth, of his small income, was often deprived of his dinner:. Mr. ROSE ,denied that the persons to whom the Noble Lord alluded were affected by the tax. He had as great a contempt for appealing to the mob as the Noble Lord could have. _ _ Mr. SHARP disbelieved the reason assigned for giving up the Malt Tax, because he would find much difficulty in having recourse to the money market. The real reason for changing the system wai„ that be the country's mutation what it might, Ministers were determined to keep their places. Mr. THOMPSON observed, that on looking to the Papers on the Income:rex, he foued that one eighth of the Tax was gathered from those having , from £5O to £lOO. Above one quarter paid from 4100 to £l5O. He therefore had objected to the tax because it was a great butden on the poor. He congratulated the country on the vote of Monday night, it had produced the abandonment of the Malt Tax. The people would, in his opinion, pay their taxes, provided they were sure that Ministers would reduce an improvident expenditute. Mr. FORBES charged the Noble Lord with im puting motives to those who opposed the Tax.— (Order, order.) Lord CASTLEREAGH denied that he had im puted motives to any Honourable Member. Mr. FORBES then congratulated the House upon the abandonment of the Malt Tax. • Lord COMPTON regretted the abandonment of the Malt Tax. He viewed the conduct of Ministers with some surprise in that respect, alter the less of the Property Tax, and could not agree with them in their vbject of seeking popularity. • Sir W. W. WYNNE hoped Ministers would give up the Agricultural Horse Tax, as well as the `Malt Tax. The Committee on the state of the Agriculture was then fixed for Thursday (this day). Mr. CUR WEN presented a Petition from the Land holders of Cumberland, stating the agricultural dis tresses of the country. The Hon. Gentleman stated the great distresses of the county in particular from which this Petition proceeded, and considered that the Noble Lord could aot be aware of the general state of the agricultural distress, which had arisen in a great measure out of the want of a circulating me dium, and from the incioase of the importation of wheat and grain, antecedent to the year 1813. He contended, that !here were at this moment more men out of employment than at any period of scarcity.— The pressure of taxation had borne so heavily on the rich, that they could not find employment for the poor. The abandonment of the Malt Tax was a re. lief to the farmer ; but he still found himself ag. grieved from the pressure of the Horse Tax ; and he hoped Ministers ' would take that part of the subject into consideration. Mr. LONG' WELLESLEY declared, that no man felt more than himself for the distresses of the Agricultural Interests ; but when the Income and Malt Taxes were removed, what more did the people want ? Ministers were entitled to the thanks of the country for what they had done. Mr. MARRYATT considered the repeal of the Property Tax as a relief -to all descriptions of per sons; for by not having w pay the Tax, they could diffuse that portion of their property to the trades man and the labourer. He conter,ded, that in com merce the Merchants had suffered equally with the Agricultural Interest. The Honourable Gentleman said, he had paid into the Bank a sum which he had no right to pay, because he would not expose his af fairs to the eyes of the Commissioners, not having made aoy profit for the last year. Sir J. GRAHAM was conscientiously obliged to vote against the Ministers, whom on all other occa sions he had supported, because he disapproved of the Tax. The Ilon. Baronet stated, that the situation of the poor was such, that in his parish, this day, there were upwards of 200 able-bodied men soliciting em ployment at the Vestry. Mr. WESTERN expressed his satisfaction that the Malt Tax was to be repealed. Lord CASTLEREAGH trusted that the House and the country would see it in the light in which it was intended, namely, as a great effort to relieve the distress of the lower classes of the people. • The Petition was then received, and referred to the Agricultufal Committee. Lord NUGENT, after some observations, moved, " That there be laid before this House an Account of all the Clerks of the Admiralty in 1815 aad 1816, with the amount of their salaries, stating the number removal and the number retained, the compensation granted to each, and the grounds of such compen sation." Mr. CROKER opposed the motion, as the Noble Lord might find every information that he required in the Navy Estimates before the House. Lord NUGENT wanted a comparative statement of the two years. In consequence of some questions put by Gentle. men oa the opposition side of the House, relative to Midshipmen in the Navy, Sir G. WARRENDER stated, that all Midship. men in the Navy who had served eight years, pro duced certificates of good conduct, and proved them selves qualified, were promoted to the rank of Lieu. tenants as a matter of course; and that all Midship men who bad served six years were provided for. Admiral HOPE corroborated this statement, and said, that every Midshipman, after six years' service, was entitled to be appointed an Admiralty tvlidbhip• man, on applying for that situation, and was imme diately employed onboard some ship of war. Mr. FREEMANTLE agreed, that -very proper means had been taken to provide for this class of 0t..1 ficers, who certainly bad not at this time any reasoe to complain. Admiral HOPE observed, that all those who had served five years, were left at the disposal of the Captains. Sir C. POLE conceived the regulations so good, that no one could hear them stated without satis ifaction. After some farther- conversation, the motion was agreed to. Mr. CROKER moved, that there be laid before the House an Account of the Establishment of the Admiralty Office in the year 1800, distinguishing the salaries that fixed von for persons employed in the Office, such as theywere ini _ intended t o b e in tilt war and in peace.—Agreed to. Sir G. WARRENDER gave notice, should bring on the Navy Estimates con Mond t ` Mr. TIERNEY observed, th at a state been made, that no Marines were now remain'; Canada. The contrary, however, appeared toh l facts for be - understood there were great nsaa.- ---••• Marines still in that country. Mr. CROKER replied, that none had b ett behind but those that were unde r or d ers to be broil home. Mr. TIERNEY could not help saying, t h at i gallant body of men, who had performed s o signal services for the country, loudly compl a t iedi ill-treatment, and ccaseeivel that a mnst o : r itut4 tinction was made between them and Officsts is t army. Lot. dCOCHRANE moved, Out the N eil, before the House relative to the C ourts of Jugicel printed.—Os dered. JUVENILE A.PPOINTME Nrs . Lor2l MILTON called the attention of th e i f to the appoinunent of t hos. wh o 'tr ete sow -- school to important sitiraticns in ntie n f our prNif; Laud cries of Hrar, hear.)—}i's LOtJliiip moved, that there he laid before the H ouse a the appointment of Master George to t h e o i: e Secretary forthe province of Nova Scoti a h e ne moved for a copy of the appointment of ano Master George, named by the form e m t h eeire , Deputy Secretary to the same provinee-..(1 6 ,: i The Motion was put from the Chaand agr ee .l l ,2 u- ADMIRALTY SALAMIS. Mr. METHUEN rose to make his promised al ,, Lion relative to the augmentati n Of salary rr.cm itt i Admiralty Secteuries. The importinceot 111, 14 jest would, he trusted, be duly estini,ted, and sin as comprehending consequences Lir heyt.nd i mediate circumstances that gave them birth. T question was one in which the honour and dioity the country were involved, and he hoped that it is be received with suitable attention. .The bri t • to which he would direct their attenth.n, s kis Order in Council of the year 1789, which tern mended the reduction of Salaries among the Sr taxies and Clerks of the Admiralty, in time o t and its recent violation. It would be his plain ,AI; to point out, by a reference to facts, that this viol:. • tion had taken place, and then to ground a aw n upon it. From those facts, he was j istified in stunting that Ministers had counten,oiced the evil which he complained, and it was far them ti,jsitit the increase of salaries in question. Thr emu in lan& in this case was clearly with them—peal. In bringing forward the subject, he was quite tn• &seated by party feelings, or actuated by any ditty sition to cavil with the measures of Governme nt . Indeed he had been foremost in supporting the, when he thought they were calculated to promaten 'glory of the country ; a first duty was, however,' look at the state of the people, and alleviate, s e t as it were possible, the distresses under winch di laboured —(Hear, ar.).—Dy looking at the state the public burdens, the public would at once the nseans of appreciating the sincerity of the pies of Ministers in their assurance of a system of t nomy—(Hear, hear). —The Holum:Ale Gentlein bete referred to the increase which hail trlen pi in several of the public departments. In the ism the salaries of two Chairmen were augmented fete £1,700 to £2,000 a year, and their Deputies 1r 51 ,200 to ,81,400—( Hear, hear). — In the Gusto a similar increase had taken place. In the Esc* Scotland, to which An Honourabl.! and Learned Ge tleman opposite ( Mr. Brougham) i,ad lwped, on question of increase, a return of nil would be mz. further augmentations would be f. told ; and sof from the retion being ail, it would Allow, on subject of reduction, that ex nillito nil ft was Oeit motto.—(Hear and laugker).—The Ctairipso of Li. cise in Scotland had received An increase from AIN to Al5OO Fr annum, and the Deputy twin sISOUto MAO a year—(Hear, Arar.)—ln the Customs, the Commissioners received au increase from ititio £l5OO a year ; and the Deputies, from 11800 £looo.—(Hear.)—The Honourable Member %en read the Order in Council of the 15th J.%nuary,_lBV, by which the preceding Order was fortified,. uJ where it was declared th at th e S e cretaries' taigi should be one-fouith more in time of - war than i peace, and the clerks one-filth.—The principle this regulation had been grossly vii,latei by the 0 wept= revision, which established the rresestrJ of salary. It had been said, inder:d, that we cog not to apply this principle of ec:,nomy to the i t ralty Department alone.—Certainly not; the rens', WAS very apparent; let the other offices be NO reduced, and then the redaction would net spies sulitary--(lisar).—Let them act in the tar Speech from the Throe, and wherever doubts upon the principle of applying a measure of 'vox, let them be construed in favour of the cou .tri• Ui the 28th October, 1807, the permanent sliaries given 'ti which he now complained. Tiwit revr rate seemed a part of that wild, int at timed, rial indiscretion, which induced them to augine:a . 1 ficial salaries at a moment of peace—(Heat, h'f Isistead of decreasing them, according to theta • prices of the articles of life, they adopted a coot course, and placed the iadivisluals who pose them above any participation in the national dis: In making these observations he disclaimed cat.. any imputation upon the very honourabie and w 4. men either in the Excise or the Admiralty, who h the situations on which he had -animadverted. to the Secretaryship ot the Admiralty, it was Government to explain whether the ..uties of t: office had more of dignity or labour now Cian 11.3. Morel he was sore they bad not—and of what t 4 ' l sequence was it then that in the House was voted. , guardianship of the public money, if t'tey overloi».: the giving it away in this manner as a matter ot This indeed presented a strong contrast to the p(';'' adopted towards the active Officers who had glv their country during the war, and several af wu had participated, and perhaps suffered, in the Ow ors Actions of St. Vincent and Trafalgar. It * singular, too, that at the moment when the " lanes' salaries were on the increase, that ot the Cie should be on the reduction—(Thar, htar)--And when those matters were touched upon incident in that House, how were they met by iiis MAjestl Ministers ?-11y recrirninajon on Gentlemen uPi t site, that, when in power,. they had dune the say though they now clamoured against it, But the r wet defy gui lore Pa Go 'am 11.1 e C m I a I a s C I ! 4 q 1 I I