Star. — London, England, 1809-05-02 00:00:00

PARLMMEtIIIR r PROCEEDINGS. or HOU'r LOKIii, MAY I The Irish Detrors and several ''rivate Bills were brt - v)itht up trum and read t The Lccal Co:tyiietion rt.d a third time, atd '1 ae other Bill+ a•, re tut %rat ded in their respective stages. I.ord DARN LEY wisheo t, hi informed by a Noble Fiif 1 whe at rtt w.ts intention of Mi - .istir,4 to appoi:it tiv gentleman late.y reprewnteo ins th, C .ur of the Supreme Junta to any o , ner ‘l2l.una i missi 1,? The auswer to this ques tion weul,i hut ar to : 1 iodriety of bringing forward it • of wb.ch-ie had tr.i ,- .11 no, ice. The Earl of LAN ER POOl. said, that his Majesty hut thought proper to recal Nir •re, but it could hardly he expected that he shi.md declare whetiii r it was or was not his intention to appoint hi:n to any other mlss'on. •The Noble Earl would exercise• his own discretion as to bringing torwarti his The Noble Earl mentioned the a l ointment of Marquis Welvsley as Am bassailor to Spain, an I passed some very high encomiums on the greet talents and exi•crionce of that noloh•inau. poßi UGuEsE REGENCY. The Earl of BUCKINGHAMSHIRE said that he had ende tvoured su to frame the motion which he proposed to subnii: to 'their Lord,hipv as to obviate any objection to it. In most of what the Noble Earl ( Livei poll) stated on a f - )rnier evening, ielatins to the production ff papers, he entirely agreed ; and as the motion he intended to make would not break in upon that principle, he trusted it would be agreed to. The importance of the geographical position of Por tugal was well knoWn to their Lordships. A military force in possession of that country must necessarily have a very great influence upon any operations in the North or South, or even the centre of There was no country in Europe more capable of military defence—there were few countries that fur nished better materials for soldiers. In the year 1763, the celebrated Count de la Lippe, at the head of 17,000 men, of which only 3000 were British, suc cessfully resisted a Spanish and French army of 42,000, of which 6000 were French. To the hardi hood and obedience of the Portuguese soldiers, Lord Townshend, who commanded under Count de la Lippe, bore testimony. Of the advantages for de ferrce which Portugal afforded, their Lordships would form some opinion, when he informed them that he bad seen a plan of a campaign in that country, in which it was demonstrated that 3u,000 men were ca. rable of defending it against 75,000. The Noble Earl next passed to the British expedition to Portugal, and to the consequences resulting from it. He was con rident that if Sir A. Wellesley had not been super seded, the victory of Vimiera would have been fol lowed by the French becoming prisoners of war. But the subject to which he was most anxious to draw the attention of their Lordships, and which indeed was the chief object of his motion, was the Government that was formed when the French were expelled from the country Their Lordships were aware, that when the Prince Regent left Lisbon, he established a Re gency. That provisional Government soon became a mere instrument in the hands of the French, and, having answered their purposes, was dissolved. Dur ing the time it was in the exercise of its power, it passed ttro decrees ; one confiscating the properties of the noble emigrants who followed the Prince Re gent to the Brazils, and the other recalling the Mi nisters of Portugal from all foreign Governments; and yet it was some of these very men that were rein stated by Sir Hew Dalrymple. ' He wished to know from the Noble Earl whether this arrangement was sanctioned by the Prince Regent, or whether it was by the a l .prubation of his Minister here. He la mented that, the feelings of the people were not taken into account, when the new government was formed, and that it did not assume a more popular shape. He could have wished to have seen a gene ral Junta composed out of the provincial Juntas, as took place in Spahr His Lordship alluded to the appointment of Marquis Wellesley, whose various ta lents he commended in a warm strain of panegyric, and conciliated with moving for copies of the procla mation of Sir H. Dalrymple, and of the correspon dence with the Portuguese Minister, and the Govern ment of the Brazils, on the appointment of the Re. genc y. The Earl of LIVERPOOL restated the opinion he had declared on a former evening, as to the prin.., ciple which was to guide the House in calling fof pa pers. The granting of papers in one House, was not a conclusive argument in favour of their being pro. duced in another. He agreed fully with the Noble Earl, as to the capacity of the Portuguese peasant to become an excellent soldier. He was convinced of his bravery, and of the bravery of the people of every country. They only required discipline, and to be -well led on to make brave soldiers. With respect to the main question, that of the formation of the Re gency-, there were two modes to be adopted after the Trench had been compelled to evacuate Portugal; either to retain a military occupancy of the country, or to reinstate the former Provisional Government as nearly as could be, under all the circumstances of the case. The first could not have been resorted . to on account €f the jealousies it was calculated to create. The latter was actually done, because it was that kind of arrangement which was presumed to be most agreeable to the Government at Rio Janeiro. In the manner of forming the Regency, every attention was paid to the feelings, and even to the prejudices of the people. Of the original Regency one was in France, where he remained to this day, and two more had accepted offices under the French Government after the dissolution of the Regency. Of these three, not one was admitted into the new Regency ; but the three remaining, who mere not lialA to the same ob lections, chose their new co ll eagues . Th ese col eagues were persons distinguished for their patrio tism and talents ; the Bishop of Oporto and Count Monteiromor. In Portugal, as in other countries, intrigues and jealousies, particularly among the higher and middle orders, were known to exist,, and it was impossible that any arrangement would give universal satisfaction. The inhabitants of the North ern provinces, the most industrious and populous part of the country, were naturally anxious that it should become the scat of Government, or that at least they 'should have a preponderance in the new Covernment. The Southern provinces, on the other hand, were :adverse to relinquishin g the superiority incidental to the.capital being si.tuated in that quarter of the king dom. It would not have become the Government of this country, considering the circumstances under which the British army entered the kingdom, to in terfere or emicavour to decide ktwecia these jeilsmies and claims. Titer adopted that Ourse *which pro deuce as well as , and a due regard to the teefin of _an ally, dict.ited ; and they reinstated the firmer Govethinent is nearly as could be. He had no t,bjec . Otni to thy first of the Noble Earl's motions ; bui 'se ;4 by. wbitt i was to be followed, he must re both. He could not c nsent to the production of zhe Correspondence which had passed between his ifesty's Government and the Prince Regent, or his Representatives in this country. Lord SIDMOUTH supported the motion, and contended, that we had a right to establish a Provi sional Government different from that which hadbeen formed. The former Regency did not posseis the confidence of the people, of which there could be no better proof than that from the moment they were restored - to power, the public spirit began to decline, and there were fewer men in arms at the end of De cember than the beginning of September. The Noble Viscount joined in the praises bestowed on the Mar quis Wellesley, and in his eminent qualifications for the situation to which he was appointed. He looked forward with confidence to a more fortunate state of affairs in Spain, in consequence of the large powers with which that Noble Lord was vested, and of the nomination of his brother to the command of the army, if it were not too late ; for, unfortunately, we were dilatory in all our expeditions. Lord HARROWBY dissented from the principle laid down by the Noble Mover of the question, re specting the appointment of the new Government, and approved the conduct of Ministers in not having. sanctioned any -revolutionary proceedings. Lords BUCKINGHAMSHIRE and SiD MOUTH severally explained. Lord GRENVII.LE said, as there seemed to be an indisposition to lay the papers moved for before the House, he should not trouble their Lordships long on a subject respecting which he had not the neces sary information. He supported the objections of the two Noble Lords on the cross bench (Buckingham shire and Sidmouth), and maintained that it was the duty of his Majesty's Ministers to establish a fbrm of Government more agreeable to the wishes of the peo ple, than a Regency in which they had no confidence, but lihich, on the contrary, was universally suspected and distrusted. The Earl of BUCKINGHAMSHIRE replied, and, after some observations from Lords HAUROWEY, SID/doom, and LIVERPOOL, the question was put, and the motion was negatived without a division.—Ad journed. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The Scotch Local Militia Amendment Bill was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Thursday next. The Irish Insolvent Debtors' Bill was read a third time, and ordered to the Lords. The LORD ADVOCATE of SCOTLAND gave notice that be would move to-tnorrow for leave to bring in a Bill for the re lief of the families of Militiamen in Scotland. The Nova Scotia Trade Bill was read a. second time, and or dered to be committed to-morrow. The LORD ADVOCATE of SCOTLAND brought up the report of the North-America Trade Bill ; the amendments were agreed to, and the Bill was ordered to be read a third time to morrow. The second reading of the Catholic Claims Bill was postponed to Wednesday se'nnight. Sir JOHN . NEWPORT moved that there be laid before the House an Account of all sums of money paid into the Treasury of Ireland on account of the Army of Reserve by the Treasurers of Counties; also an account of the Custom-house and Excise• Officers of Ireland, receiving pensions en account of superannua tion ; and of all pensions payable out of the establishment of Ire land up to the Ist of January, 1809.—Ordered. Mr. HUSKISSON brought in a Bill for regulating the Duties on Sugar.—Read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow•. 'llie Reports of the Committees of Ways and Means and Sup ply were brought up and agreed to. The House resolved itself into a Committee on the Irish Mili tia laws Amendment Bill; and the Report was ordered to be taken into consideration on this day fortnight. Mr. CANNING presented a copy of a Letter from Sir John Moore to Mr. Frere, dated Salamanca, Nov. 16, 1808.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. TIERNEY wished 'to know whether the Right Hon. Secretary would have any objection to lay before the House a Copy of the Remonstrance sent by Sir lobo Moore to Mr. 1. rere, on the subject of his calling a council of war, for the purpose of examining Colonel Charmilly, as in that case, he should move for a copy of that paper to-morrow. Mr. CANNING said, he did not know whether *ere was any paper in kis office of the description alluded to by the Right Hon. Gentleman, and therefore he could not give p precise an swer on the subject. Lord TEMPLE postponed his Motion relative to the affairs of Spain, which stood tor to-morrow, to to-morrow se'nnight. On the Motion of Mr. ROSE, the Prize Goods Sale Bill was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time to morrow. Mr. WHITBREAD wished to know from the Chanceller of the Exchequer, whether it was his intention to bring forward a State Lottery in the course of the present Session of Par. liament 'I he CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that he had not yet made up his mind upon the subject, and therefore ciuld not give a positive answer. Mr. WHITBREAD then gave notice, that In the course of next week he should submit to the HOUSe a Resoletfon relative to State Lotteries, founded on the Report of the Committee last appointed to inquire into the subject. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER assured the Honourable Gentleman that if a Lottery should be found neces sary, every precaution would be devised to lessen the evil of in surance. ' Mr. WHITBREAD wished to be informed by some of the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite, whether Colonel De Cltarmilly, besides the pay of his Commission in the Army, had not a pen sion from the British Government. Mr. HUSKISSON said, that Colonel De Charmilly enjoyed his full pay as a Colonel of horse; but, besides that, he was ig norant that he had any other provision from the British Go vernment. pte•Pident eye to the* own interests, they had char ged five per cent. on the gross amount of the sales of the proistrty committed tb their charge. When they were asked by Mr. Pit►, at a peri•,d when Govern. ment laboured under very. serious embarrassments, if they could make any advance to the public ouz of the baßinces which they held in their hands ? theyan swered no ; and yet at that time there was a very large balance in their hands, which they were conver. ting to their own privatf emolument. The Hon. Member, after commenting at some length on the abuses disclosed in the Report, said it might seem something strange that Mr. John Bowles, a Member of the Society for the Suppression of Vice, shoUld have been concerrred in such transactions. It was said that some of the Commissioners had given up lucrative professions to devote themselve to the duties of their situation, anti therefore they ought to be handsomely remunerated. Mr. John Bowles might have starved in his • profession, had he not found out, under Mr. Pitt's administration, that the trade of an anti-jacobin was a much more lucra:ive employment than his own ; and this was the origin of all his boasted zeal and loyalty. He conceived in the pre sent instance, that Government was much more cul pable than the Commissioners ; for what other con duct was to be expected from a hirling author like Mr. Bowles, than that of which he had been guilty ? Government, by its neglect, held out a bounty to roguery. The Honourable Member said, he differed from the Committee as to the remuneration which he thought ought to be given to the Commissioners, and was of opinion that their palpable malversation and gross abuse of their trust, called aloud for the cen t sure of the House. After commenting at some length on various parts of the evidence as given in the Report of the Committee, he concluded with moving a series of Resolutions to the following effect : " That it appears to this House, that, to commit pecuniary trusts of extraordinary magnitude to any persons whatsoever, without settling the mode or amount of their remuneration, with out providing any checks on their proceedings, and without re• minding them of their responsibility by calling on them for any re gular or periodical accounts, is a neglect which may lead to the most prejudicial consequences, and is a deviation from the ac knowledged duty, and from the ordinary practice of Government. " That it appears from the Fourth Report of the Committee appointed to inquire into the expenditure of the public money, that the Commissioners for the sale, management, and disposal of Dutch property, have been guilty of gross abuses in the execu tion of their trust. " That the said Commissioners be forthwith directed to use their utmost diligence to make up and transmit their accounts to the Lords of his Majesty's Privy Council, with a view to their being submitted to the Board of Treasury, and by them referred to the Auditors." The first Resolution being read from the Chair, Mr. THORNTON entered into some explanation of the views upon which the Committee, of which he was a member, had framed its Report. He had no objection to the first Resolution proposed by the Hon. Member, becaSse that was nearly in the words of the Report to which he had already agreed ; but he thought the best step for the Hon. Member to have adopted would have been to inquire what course Go vernment had taken in consequence of the suggestion of the Committee? If Government had done nothing, it might then be very well for the Hon. Gentleman to press his Resolutions ; 'but if it turned out tl4at the recommendations of the Committee had been attended to, then he did not see the necessity of them. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER de clared, that the principal directions of the Report had been acted upon by the Treasury with as little delay as possible. They had written to the Privy Council to direct the Dutch Commissioners to make up their accounts as speedily as they could, in order to their being submitted to. the Auditors of the Pubic Ac counts ; and the Commissioners were directed to charge a commission of 5 per Cent. on the net pro ceeds only of the property which passed through their hands, and to render an account of the interest they derived from balances of money in their possession. This was the .recommendation of the Committee, and upon it the Treasury had acted. The Right Honourable Gentleman took a view of the nature of the Commission under which the Dutch Commis. sinners acted, and contended, that no degree of blame attached to Government, that a settled remuneration was not fixed for the Commissioners at their first establishment. As for the first Resolution proposed by the Honourable Member, he felt no extraordinary interest in its rejection, because it attached equally to other Administrations as well as that in which he had a share ; but as he couldperceive no good that would result from its standing on the Journals, and.the re commendations of the Committee had already been attended to, he hoped the Honourable Member would have no objection to withdraw i t , ot h erw i se h e s h ou ld feel himself under the necessity of moving the previous question. SirJOHN NEWPORT supported the Resolutions. A good deal more, he was of opinion, ought to be done than was proposed by them, and if they were agreed to, he should be disposed to follow them up by an Address to his Majesty, praying that he would give directions to his Attorney General to prosecute the Commissioners for gross nialversation and fraud in the execution of their trust. Mr. ROSE said, he was ready to admit that there had not been that strict attention, on the part of the Treasury, under whom the Dutch Commissioners had acted, which the importance of their charge re quired. The Commissioners, however, were not ap pointed by the Treasury, but by the Privy Council, and being appointed, their accounts were to be ren dered to the Treasury. He never conceived that they were to be allowed a poundage on the amount of the property they were to dispose of, but, on the contrary, imagined, that on the passing of their ac counts, they would receive such a compensation as the nature of their occupation seemed to warrant. With respect to the literary productions of Mr. John Bowles, he had them certainly hid on his table, but he would aver, with great confidence, that he never read a single line of their contents. Mr. WHITBREAD contended that it was incum bent on that House to express its marked reprobation of the transaction—to place its finger on the guilty persons, and particularly on one, who had for seven• teen years been the favourite of the Treasury, and the libeller of some of the most respectable Members of both Houses. After such a scene of fraud as had been disclosed, it was impossible to pursue any other line of conduct. This man had been the CiAo of the day, correcting 41 the vices of the public ; he wrote SO pamphlets to favour of the Treasury, and, indeed, the Right HonoUrable Gentleman paid him but an ill compliment when he said he had never read any of them. The Commissioner's were appointed to s eee from French rapacity Dutch vessels and property see , for proteccion into our harbours. They did not w • for remuneration in the ordinary way from thc sury, but paid themselves for their trouLle. took to themselves 5 per cent. on the Bros pr . l'eeeds, and any thing more gross Was never heard (e. They said they acted according to usage. This w , , a gross falsehood, no such usage existed. The expl:.. nations they made were a gross aperavation of tle..e: conduct ; they even went so far as to dare t 5 cane; , the votes of Members of that House. He wished a bill of discovery might be filed against th em , to male: them account for the very last shilling they put is. their pockets. He would not, like Mr. Bowles, tr vel into the regions of the dead. That Saieeke, ( e el , meter had, in the grossest and most scandal,,.,, reae. ner, calumniated the late Duke of Bedford after 1.:, ! death. He did not conceive it necessary to seek aft:e. !-the evidence of persons who were no more. was sufficient evidence without them. He thoue!e it very extraordinary that the Right Hon. Genrik who spoke last, had not thought of these Dutch missioners since his return to office. A ple e f multiplicity of business could not avail him. I: eT , material to carry on a prosecution against this es ! who, like a certain Athenian, might go home and ! regard the hisses of the populace; but unlike e. e Athenian, he should not he able to console Lirriel: his ill-gotten pelf; for that pelf he must re,teae...... Mr. Whitbread took notice cf the ilrit; : jaceilin Revitt., which was edited by three great men, ore cf them was Secretary of State, the other had been appointed Minister to Spain, and the third was Mr. John B ee l„ . This was a work witch contained gross libels av,..inst some of the first characters in the country. It w eb the duty of every Member of Parliament to mark W:til reprobation the conduct of men who had applied so enormous a portion of money to themselves. Thee were responsible for 40 or 50,0001. which they haat suffered the public to lose, by not putting the money in their hands out to interest. Mr. Bowles mi:;ht iu his writings rail against Jacobins as much as he liked ; but of all the Jacobinical acts he ever heard of zhii was the greatest, fOr never was there an act that ten ded more to shake the monarchy of the courtry_ Here Mr. Whitbread quoted a passage from one o f Mr. Bowles's pamphlets, wherein he inveighed against the insatiable love of gain, which characterized the age we live in, and nothing could describe that gentle man's character better than the words used by The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in explanation, said, if the auditors found the charges were improper they would be disallowed. Mr. ROSE said, the Commissioners ci:uld have had no final remuneration until they pi - educed their accounts. Mr. HUSKISSOI4 said, in the multiFlicity cf business that came before the Treasury, it was ia;t: surprising that some omissions took place. Therefore the House would not justly feel any disposition to pass a heavy censure in a case of this kind. Mr. PONSONBY said, it was impossible for the House to pass over an act of negligence of this kind, without due reprobation. Here 14. years were allowed to pass over, during wh;ch, these Commissioners had all this money in their hands, and they never was called upon to give an account of their proceedings. In allusion to the character and conduct of I\r. Bowles, he read passages from one of hispamphlet:, where he talked of men losing all conscience, and having no principle to restrain them from vice; and of men defrauding the public revenues in a most shameful manner. Another passage alluded to the fraud committed on the Bank, by a culprit, who was one of those who had neglected the moral and religious duties inculcated in the pamphlet. If Ili:: House passed all these abuses without notice,the public would believe that it participated in the fruits of them. Mr. MA R RIOTT observed, that the Hon. Gentle man who attacked Mr. Bowles was also a patuphle teer himself; and it appeared that two of a trail.: could not agree. The circumstances which caused the appointment of Mr. Bowles to be a Dutch Com missioner, was his having written an answer to Paine's Age of Reason, which book was so approved. of by Mr. Pitt, that he sent for him, and gave him the appointment in question. He certainly disap proved of many parts of the conduct of these Com missioners ; but the House should wait until the ac counts were audited. • Mr. PETER MOORE said, that this was a case of two millions having been kept for fourteen yc.us in the hands of individuals, for the purposes of tram! and concealment. And if the House passed it Lnci, the public would think it was the maxim in that House, that public plunder was private virtue. Mr. H. SMITH. wished to separate the conduct c f Government entirely from that of the Commissioner-, and that the latter should be preceeded against acce ding to last'. The SOL ICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLAND vindicated the grounds on which his Right Halloo:- able Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) op posed the resolu.tions. Lord H. PETTY did not think that any War= attached to the present or to the late Govert.ment.— But yet a general censure and vote of reprobation against the conduct of the former Government oudit to be passed; for if the House did not express its reprobation, nothing but contusion and fraud would ensue. Mr. BARHAM' said, there was here disclosed :t most aggravated fraud, and the House had sou au opportunity of restoring the public confidence, by voting for the resolutions. Mr. CANNING contended that the more foul the transaction in question was, the more cautious shoule. the House be of passing a vote that should involve in the guilt of it, those against whom there Should be no suspicion of connivance or neglect. Mr. TIERNEY saw no reasonable ground of op position to the proposed resolutions. The House shouid not wait for what would be done by auditors of ac counts, or the Privy Council, on the subject, it should shew the country what it was able to effect of itself. ( Hear, hear ! ) Mr. H. THORNTON read a Resolution, which, he said, he framed for the pu r p ose o f d o ing away the objections on the other side, and because one of the original resolutions was rather too strong against the Commissioners in point of their violating an Act cf . Parliament, which, by its unspecific tenor, in saa . measure created an apology for them. He did not mean by this to say, that he did not entirely reprobate th conduct. -6.rw a~" THE DUTCH COMMISSIONERS. 1 Mr. ORD said, that in drawing the attention of the House to a Report which had lately been laid upon the table, he was sorry to observe that it was too much the practice of the House to suffer such re. ports to •be laid upon their table without adopting any proceedings in consequence of them, or taking .any measures to prevent the future recurrence of the abuses which they disclosed. The Fourth Report of the Committee appointed to inquire into the public lexpenditure discloted malversations of so gross a na. ture, that he thought it impossible for the House to pass them over without coming to some resolutions on the subject. The facts were briefly as follows In 1795, a commission, consistin& of James Crau furd, John Brickwood, Allan Chatfield, John Bowles, and Alexander Baxter, Esqrs. was instituted fo r t h e , sale, management, and disposal of Dutch property, captured or detained on the occasion of the com mencement of hostilities with Holland, in consequence of its invasion by the French. When this commission Iwas set on foot, no settled rates of remuneration were fixed for the labours of the Commissioners, but they .44 taken this /* lug: iatu - their owi hands, and with. N