Star. — London, England, 1807-02-14 00:00:00

7- of his newel} and dearea eonnellions. Surely the Boufe would not condemn him for an aa which was very natural, and which he thought there was not an Hon. Member prefent but would have aOed in a fimilar manner. The fecond means by which Go vernment had it in their power to ufe undue and im proper influence was, that of a mifufe of the public money, and he was as certain that none could be if rued, either from the Exchequer, or from the Trea fury, for fuch purpofes, without his knowledge; and he declared folemnly, that not a tingle !billing had been iffued for this occalion either in Hants or any where elle ; nay, he would further pledge himfelf, that no fecret fervice money, nor coin of any de fcription had, during the late eleainn, been applied , to this purpofe. He had now anfwered, as he thought fully, to thole two points, and he hoped, as far as his ability went, to the fatisfa&ion of the Houle. Why a pion in his fituation flsould not be permitted to teflifv a preference for and exercife his privat e indi vidual intered in fuch a way as it was in others deemed meritorious to do, he was totally at a lots to conceive. On the contrary, he was perfealy convin• ted that he had the fame right to do fo as any other perfon wharf never, and in that confcionfnefs of reei tude he had done it without fcruple. He afked why Government Ihould be precluded from thofe feelings which attached fo flrongly to other men ? If fo, he begged the Houfe would fee in what a fituation they would place the prefent Government. The Hon. Gentleman on the Oppofition Bench had for twenty Tears held all the patronage of the County in quef. , von. Government had certainly the fame right to give their opinion (A cry of bear, hear, hear l) that is, Paid the Hon. Gentleman, fuppoling they don't do it uncontiitutionally (Hear, hear, hear !) He had thus endeavoured to latisfy the Honk as to the reafons which had induced him to come forward in his pri- Tate capacity, and he had alfo given his general rea fons for the interference he had ufed. He was per feel), aware of the political fentiments of the feve. ral Hon. and Right Hon. perfons who compofed the prefent Government ; he was truly fenfible of their high notions of honour, and th.qr love for their coun try ; and be was equally certain that in his fituation of Secretary to the Treafury, he fhould have forfeited their good opinion it he had in any manner adled contrary to the principles of the Conflitution ; and, notwithflanding the charge brought againft him and the clamour which had been fo induftrioufly pro pagated refpeaing it, he was happy in the refleaion that it was altogether unfounded. He had very lit tle more to fay. He trufted that his fituation, his fortune, and his connalions, were fuch as to (helter him ltom all idea that he would lend himfelf to any. bale or unworthy conelna, in fo very important a matter as that of endeavouring to violate the free dom of the elective franchife. Nut a tingle vole had been given by any perfon belonging to the Barrack Board, which was a (hiking proof that Lis letter was taken as nothing more than the recommendation of . _ . . an individual in favour of a near relation. Under thefe eircumilances, he trulicd the Houle would be of opinion, that this petition was frivolous, and unde (crying their further attention. Sir H. MILDMAY faid a few words in expla nation. Mr.BRODERICK faid, the Hen. Gentleman bad informed the Houle, he was polfetfed of landed property in the county of Hants ; but, from his own ihtwing, it was evident that before he at 411 inter fered with neighbours and tenants there, he had thought it neceifaryto fend his requeft to the Barrack Mafter General, to ufe his interelt and influence amongft thofe of his department. The Hon. Gen tlemwn Teemed to lay great ftrefs on the petition not being that of the great body of Freeholders of the County of Hants. It never was pretended that it was ; and he Taw no rcafon whatever why the Hon. Gentleman fhould prefume to diaate how the peti tion fhould be drawn up, or by how many it fhould be figned. He, for his own part, thought that it was figned by a fufficient number, and contained matter of importance enough to induce the Houfe to grant the inquiry moved for, which would give the Hon. Gentleman a very fair opportunity of proving his innocence to that Honk and to the Public. The Eon. Gentleman had told the Houfe that no promife or threat could have been made without his know- ledge. If no fuch thing had tranfpired in the county of Southampton, he would have paid as much re open to kis allegation as lie did to that of his poffef fion of property. A Right Hon. Gentleman over the way (Mr. Tierney) had on a former night com plained of the length of time which the Hon. Mem. bets who fignei the petition had fuffered to elapfe before they prefented it. They were ungneflionably the belt judges of that point, and doubtlefs brought it forward at a time when they thought it would be mina likely to have a full difcutlion. As fuch he enuld rote for the 'notion. Mr. HERBERT faid, no man mote fincerely re hoiced than himfelf to find that the P e tition, whi c h ad been fo long withheld, had at length found its way into the Houfe, and that the flream of tyranny itd oppleffion, fo long faid to have been held by the prefent Ckvernment both in and out of the Houfe, Mould at laft come to a fair and candid inveiligation. Yet, however glad he might be that the whole truth Mould come nut on this occafion, he could not help erpreling his opinion of the conduct of thole who had brought the tnbje& forward. The Hon. Gentle. =en who had figned ibis Petition had profeffed that i• had been their with to have produced it at the corn. -4.encernent of the Seffion, but that they were fearful :re would not be s fafficient attendance of County ivlrmbers. Whether that was the true reafon or not he did not know, but if it were true, there certainly matt have been Come other reafon ; and he had heard that this was not the Pktition which was drawn up at I that time, but, on the contrary, oho of a quite different .complvsion; if fo,Jkow could the Hon. Gentleman who brought it forwordanfwer to the County the dif ference which' now appeared on the face of it ? The lon Petition he underfloor, pretended not to ftate any fait agairdt his Hon. Ft iend, and it was necelTary to drniv the attention of the Houfe to this Petition, to Ihtw the tone of the opinion which pet vaded it, and chereby to enable it to forte a true judgment whether this petition had been prefented for the porpofe of gra. Trying private pique and refentment, or for promoting the public good. He believed every one mull have been aeqnainted, from the advertifcments of the Hon. Baronet, that the influence of the dock yards had been tiled in the cootie of the late eleelion in favour of banfelf and his Hcn. Colleague. He bad, however)l [authority from the Fiat ConentiMoners of the dock yards, and from the principal clerks employed under them, to declare that no word had been fpoken by him or them to influence the artificers in giving their votes. On the contrary, many of them had applied to him, to know how he flood affefted, and which way he intended to give his vote ? He anfwered, for his Hon. Friend; but as he knew that many of them owed their fituations to the Right Hon Gentleman oppofite (Mr. Role), he would not with to influence them by what he meant to do. Here was the autho rity of the Firft Commilfioner againft the imputed interference of Government in the Dock yard. Im. mediately after the elation, a meeting was held for the purpofe of getting a Petition againft it ; and the Petition then produced was different from this ten- founded charge again ft his Honourable Friend, which evidently (hewed that at that moment they had not the fmallefl idea of proceeding in the way they had now done. His Honourable Friend had juilly (fated, that out of upwards of 6000 Freeholders, this Petition was only figned by 112 ; and though he did not mean to deny the right of thole Gentlemen to peti tion, yet he could not help putting it to the feelings and good fence of the Houle, that if loch inter ference and fuch influence had really been ufed, it would have operated fo much on the indignation of the mafs of Freeholders, that a far greater number would unqueltionably have figned it. They might certainly have found perfons who could have proved the falls to fign it—perfons who could fhew from whence the threats and menaces' came. His Hon: Friend who brought forward the Petition, had him felf ufed fusilier threats and menaces on the other fide, and In had many more. A Magittrate of the County had accufed him and his Honourable Col league of wifhing to introduce into this country the bloody tyrant who had overrun fo many parts of Europe. If thofe fats were true, perhaps it would come our, that this heavy charge againft Govern ment osiginated in their own imperative conduit towards their tenants, and thofe over whom they had influence of any kind whatever ? He thought, however, that in whatever temper the Petition or igi nated, or from whatever reafons it had been prefent ed, it was now necelfary the Houle &mid enter into a full and fair inveltigation of the fubjeCt. He ad verted to the paper which had fir It been read by the E:onourable Baronet who feconded the motion, and Paid, that if that minute were not in fait a true copy of the converfation which had taken place between him and a Noble Lord—if the Honourable Baronet (Sir W. Heathcote) timid have admitted this, and that he could not rely on the accuracy of his me mory, but would rather incline to fuppofe that the after llatement of the Noble Lord was the real bent of the converfation which took place, he would afk the Hon. Baronet who feconded the motion, how he could produce loch a document in fupport of the charge contained in this Petition, or as that kind of authority which ought to weigh aga'rilt the chara&er and honour. of the Government ? Any diliintt mem ber of the Government had a right to interfere as an individual, and it could never have been the intention of the Legitlature to take away that right ; and cer tainly any perfon, however high in office, might fairly fay which of the candidates had his good wifhes, and his Honourable Friend had done no more. Magif crates might ufe, and fo might Country Gentlemen, whatever means they pleafed to menace their tenants, and thole over whom they had authority ; and yet t h e m olt extraordinary clamour was now railed againft his Honourable Friend for only conveying his requelt to General Hewett, to give his intereft to thole with whom he was nearly conne&ed, and to whom he wilhed fuccefs. He trufted, therefore, the Houfe would go with him in laying that this Petition did not deferve further attention, and that every do cument which had been produced fell very fhort indeed of ettablifhing any well-founded charge of Government having ufed any undue or improper in- fluence in the late elation for the county of Hants. Mr. JEFFRY (of Poole) Paid, that after the bold affections made by the Secretary of the Treafury that no influence had been ufed by Government, either in Hamplhire or in any other place, he could not reft fatisfied with giving a fluent vote on the queflion, for fear it might he taken as a fymptom that he affented to the truth of thofe affertions. He would therefore requeß the attention of the Houfe till he gave a few reafons, which came within his own knowledge. and which in fad related to himfeif, to fhew the Houfe why he, for one, could not place confidence in chore affertions. That very Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary of the Treafury, had openly and plainly told him, that if he again offered himfelf as a candi. date for Poole, he muft ( iitott cape& the influence of Government in his favoiet; which he had formerly experienced, (wattle he had in the let Parliament oppofed and voted againff the Government—that they were therefore determined to oppole him. ( Here Tome murmurs taking place, Mr. Jeffery laid, Nay, hear me out, I have not half done yet.")—He then proceeded to fay, that the Secretary of tne Treafury went on to inform him, that if he perfiffed in (Land ing as a Candidate, Government would endeavour to open the Borough, and cry the right of the Com snonalty; which had once before been done without ace. He Rated farther, that after the fief! Go vernment Candidate had tried a canvas, and after wards declined the cont4t, it had-been publicly no. tified that the patronage of Government was to be given to Michael Angelo Taylor, Efq. Places which were before promifed to certain perfons, were atuaily given to others, in order to obtain their fupport of the Candidate who oppofed him in his native place. Tittle, and many other intlances of a fintilar kind, Chewed, beyond contradiaion, that the undue in fluence of Government had been exerted—and there tore that the Secretary to the Treafury fhould deny there was any fuch thing, he fhould have thought impoffible. Mr. BIDDULPH thought differently from the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Herbert) refpating the decifion *Ouch the Houle timid come to on this Pe eitiot. He was not at all acquainted with the rela tive fefuation of the perfons concerned—he was nut conneeed with any party, or biaffed by partiality, but he confeffed that enough had been Rated by the Secretary of the Treafury to induce him to think, that the perfons by whom the Petition was prefented were entitled to the utmoft attention and refpe& of Parliament. The Honourable Secretary boldly tie dared, that the Government, as a Government, had a right to interfere at etc &ions. Now this appeared to him very extraordinary doarine ; it was Inch, he believed, as could not be received in that Houle.— The Honourable Gentleman had alto fired, that his fituation was fuch as to make it impollible for the Government to apply any of the public money to ele lion purpofes, or to any other improper purpofe, without his knowledge. Taking this Ratement for granted, the Hon. Gentleman became, therefore, a greater object of jealoufy and fufpicion, for the more important and c , .nfidential was his troll, the greater weight muff his application, in an official form, carry with it. From this view of the fuhjee, he was of opinion that the petition was entitled to the confide• ration of the Houle. Mr. FREEMANTLE explained, and reminded the Hon. Member, that his argument went to prove that the Government, in their individual capacity, were not divefted of their rights as Englilhmen, in confequence of holding an official flotation. Mr. JENKINSON did not rife with a view of en• tering into the fubjed of debate, but merely to Rate that - he was one of thofe againtl whom the limits rf power had been ineftednally levelled. He had the honour of reprefenting Dover, at the eleAion of which every influence which the agents of Govern ment could pradife was refroted to. Here the Ho. nourable Member •intianced fome menaces with re fped to the lots of fituations in the Vidtualling 1)e -partment, if the perfons holding them did not vote for tke Miniflerial Candidate ; and concluded with giving his opinion, that the Petition fhould be enter tained by the Honk. Mr. TIERNEY had to thank the Hon. Gentle. man who propofed the quellinn, and alto the Ho nourable Baronet who feconded it, for the feveral do cuments which they produced and read ; for, as the cafe now Rood before the Houle, Gentlemen were acquainted wirh all the papers and information which could be referred to the Committee of Privileges : being capable ofexerciling its judgment on what was read, he did not think that the Houle would come to the refulution of referring this cafe to a Committee. What would be the objed of fuch a proceeding ? Unquefirmably to inveltigate the charges contained in the Petition, and to examine the proofs on which it was founded. But the nature of the prefent cafe did not make this formality requifite ; the whole re folved itfelf into one charge, which, he was certain, the Houle mull confider unfupported by any thing which appeared in the Shape of evidence or argument. As to the Petitioners, he mutt fay, that it was unufual for Members of Parliament to fign any thing of the kind, becanfe they would have a full opportunity of expreffing their opinions on it in Parliament. It Ihould be liken ife obferved, that if a Member of Par liament knows of any breach of privilege, it is his duty to communicate it as loon as poffible. The Hoe.: was fo jealous of its privileges, that the con federation of any of them would take precedence of his Majelly's Speech to Parliament. Not withftand ing all this facility which would he given, and al though a Petition had been prepared two months ago, yet it was potiponed to the relent time ; and even now it was not that Petition which was prefented, but another drawn upon the fpur of the moment, con• raining only one charge, and that again(' his Ho• nourable Friend (Mr. Freemantle.) The fall con. rained a general charge of undue influence again(' Government, and was therefore deemed wrong; but the Petition now prefented was a right one, becaufc it contained only one charge againll an individual conneded with Government. He ()Nerved the name of a Member of that Hence fubfcribed to iz, brit he really believed that tf the Hon. Member (Mr. Dent) was in his place, he would acknowledge that he had fubfcribed what he was ignorant of. He was at a lots for the reafon which could induce an Honourable Member (Mr. Jeffer ) to bring a charoeagainli ano ther Member ( Mr. Michael Angelo Taylor) in his ablence. He never heard fuch improper language, not only from one Member to another, but from one Gentleman to another.—[Order,•Order, ! from tir. FELLOWES, who raid, he never heard loch unparlia mentary language during the time he held a teat in the Houk, as that ufed by the Right Honourable Gentleman, who teemed inclined to provoke the par ties to Shoot each other try of Hear, Hear! and Order, Order l followed ] Mr. SPEAKER. thought that it would be more •regular if the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) had not ufed the lag expreffions. Mr. TIERNEY begged pardon of the Houle, and allured the Honourable Gentleman who called him order, that he had not any fuels intention as that to which he afcribed to him in the ufe rf thofe ob jedlionable words. He trufled that the Houfe would not fuppufe he Wri influenced by any Such motive. His Honourable Friend (Mr. Taylor) was brought into one (*crape already, and furely it was not his with to bring him into one fill more fetious. He could oot refrain from obferving, that it was extraordinary, in the Search of the Honourable Gentlemen for pre cedents, they could only snake out this one charge; and what did that amount to ? To this merely, that his Honourable Friend's letter was dated from the Treafury; this was the whole offence. if he had the experience of an old Treafury praetitioner he would have dated it from his houfe in Stanhope.lbeet,which would have faired him, and the petitioners the trouble of propofing and making it. But the words Treafury Chambers imported, at prefent, fomething fo terrible as to make the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. G. Rote) quite aghaft —(Great laughter.)—He would a& Gentlemen on the other tide, whether any ad vantage refulted to his Hon. Friend from the appli cation made to General Hewett for his interell ? N ne whatever—for, although the felicitation had pro cured a debate, it did not appear that it had the effed of procuring a tingle vote. Suppofing that the Houk refolved to go into a Committee of Privi leges, what more could be fubmitted to the Houle than it is informed of at prefent ? General Hewett may be examined at the Bar ; but what could that produce ? If you afked with the utmoft formality whether he received the letter, which was read that night, he would anfwer that he had, and that it was .ttte identical original. What greater light could that Itatement throw upon the fubjedl than the Hoofe was pained of already ? He conceived that it would be trifling-with the dignity of the time of Parliament to go into a Committee on this unfounded and paltry charge, which no Oppofition but the prefent would exhibit 4 there .might, however, be fome exenfe for fuels condo& Perhaps the Right Hon. Gentleman, (Mr.Rofe) knowing the ufe which had been formerly made of toe iVuence of Govern:nen., at timed that it might have wren tarteifed on the occafion alluded to by the relent Government. Although Gentlemen may make large afTertions, yet it did not follow that the Houfe fhould receive them ;—he put it fairly, whether charges of this kind, which had been circu lated with all poflible indultry and malice, did not raife, inflead of lowering the Goverr , (Hear, kror,from the 2llirillerial &Reins.) If the Houle fhotild refolve to go into a Cimmittee, it would he wafting its time On one of the moll extraordinary .4: , (1 toihlh pe titions ever prefented. It was, in (aft, the of 7 or 8 Members to thcm'elves ; for as to the nth r lubfcribers, though he knew moll of the re(penable people of Hampthire, he conk nut fay that he had the honour of knowing any of there lubferibers. The truth was, that the Oppoiiiion bad mantifaelured this petition, and refolved to ,:nth it to the uttnoti extent ; —but he did not thitik that they could take ro them. felves any great (hart of credit for their maoagement,. or for this fample ot maoutaatite. It may b• expec ted, however. that the Right Honourable Gentleman ( Mr. Role) though appearances were dircourariog at preterit, might rife in z few y:ars to an cirri:a nce on the Oppofition Benches (a cry if Scar, Lear, and great laughing.) But toppofing that the kind of i..fl.iebee formerly exercifed with ruccefsagainll bis Hon Frit :Id (Mr. Jervi- ), had now turned Out Mt. Chute, furely the fituation of the one would not be wince th.n that of the other. At all events, it Friuli excite di it, to fee this petition brought forward from filch a quarter. - Mr. CANNING hoped the Right Han. Gentle man would ailow him to quality his alit:nit:intent by faying, that the furprize and difgult of the country mutt arife at the oppofition of the Right Hon. Gen-, tleman and his colleagues to the further hearing of this petition. Fortunately for the empire, the Right Hon. Gentleman and the other fuppor ters of Paiiia. mentary Reform had come into office, but being once veiled with power, and holding a high fituation, the notions of the Right lion. Gentleman were fud denly altered. What was the firit proof which he gave of his idea of reform ? That all the principles and praCtices which he formerly cenfured and repro bated, fhould not•be wholly removed, but ufed again ft thofe who had themfelves when in power endeavoured to ptaftife them : his only ambition feemcd to be, ro have the fati.faCtion of retorting upon preceding Adniinittrations the abufes which they might have had encouraged, but which the Right Honcurable Gentleman, at the time to which he alluded, had condemned with the grea'ett violence, as lubvelfive of the Contiituti to of the country. The Right Ho. nourable Gentleman gave a proof of his fyflem of purity by (lacing. that he did not think it a crime for the Secretary of the Treafury to folicit, with every appearance that was official, the head of the Barrack Department in Hampthire. He did not mean to fay that there was any proof of guilt efla. blifled, but rarely there was good ground for en tertaining fufpicion of the Secretary. He agreed with the Honourable Gentleman, that his cfficial fituation did not diveß bim of his civil or politi cal rights. But, though he acknowledged this ge neral propofition, yet he conceived it neceffary in :.im to exercife thofe rights in certain cafes with cautioft. Suppofing that the Petition did not con tain as much evidence as it did. of the influence, or imputed influence, for the fake of the argu. men(, yet as it was prcfented by one Honourable Member, and feconded by an4ther, he conceived that it fhould not be rejected without further confider. /at i an. The Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) juttified its rejeaion, by adducing lar abodes formerly prafhled ; his argument went to prove that one Government thould make reisrifals, as it were, upnn another ; for he Rated in lobo:ince, that Mr. Chute had been defeated and turned out of his feat by the abufes which had been praCtifed in the fame place by preceding Governments. This was a terrible denunciation againft the County of Hants; for, granting that the EleCtors of every other county may obtain redrefs, yet the Electors of Hampfhire are to endure the exiftence of abufes for ever walnut a hope of redrefs ; in fait, they were to be told, that baking been in the habit, under eve; y change of Go vernment, to fee their favourite Candidate removed by Court influence and Minifterial intrigue, they have no right to complain; that the prefent Government has as good a right to teak to thole praelices as any that went before it, and, of courfe, that the EleCt o rs Imutt bear the confequences. There was this pecu. liarity attached to the cafe of Hampfhire, namely, that it was the undue influence of the Government exercifed at a General Elettion, which canted the Refolutions now entered on the Journals againft Inc praftices in future. The Right Hon. Gentleman, confirmation of what he advanced on this point, read the letter of the Duke of Chandos, on which the Re. folution of the Houfe was founded, and concluded with expreffing a hope, that although the Petition was not manufaenred to the taite of Minifters, yet that it might be fuffered to go to a Committee. Mr. ADAM contended, that the fituatioo Mr. Freemantle held as Secretary of the Treafury, did not preclude hint from interfering, like any other in dividual, in a matter with relpeet to which be felt himfelf ir,tereuled. Lord FOLKSTONE confidered, that the Hon. Secretary had fufficiently explained the exprelflon he had made ufe of. He however thought, that as he had written only to a Public Department to influence the votes in that department, acd not to General Hewett to exert his influence generally with the Gentlemen of his acquaintance, the letter mutt be confidered as an official letter, and not merely as the a& of an individual, fpringiog from private friendfLip. He had indulged a hope that Gosernment would, in fupport of their own character, and of that continency wh;ch they had boalled fo much of, not reject As pretent l'etiiion. Under 111 the circumUnces of the cafe, he thought the allegations of the Petition were fuch as ought to be referred to a Committee of Pri. viieges. Mr. JOHNSTONE obferved, that no pet fon could believe the Hon. Secretary had Interfered in his indt- vidual capacity. He exp;effed his difapprobatk;;: the circumftance of wri ing the words, "On his 7k. • fervice," upon the letters which were tranfmit • ted in order to influence thofe who were dependent upon Government. He gated that letters had not only been circulated in Hampfhire, but notorioullt in many other counties. He had a letter which had been fent into Yorkfhire, and had be been aware of the debate coming forward, he fhould have brottalt it with him.. I Mr. BATHIIRST defended tl , eondtrit ct the