Star. — London, England, 1811-07-16 00:00:00

{~; .1 E:' % 1 7 - 7 • '1 intimated to them by Ministers, that were ete proposed measure rejected, they would find need • • , estit cite p tper money a legal tender of the realm. • .nreare, considered as a partial one , framed ex , sedy for making paper le , ,eti tender, was inefficient He admitted it to be proper in his Majesty's elieisees, when they compelled a man to take their : I..ereciated currency, to go further, and protect him le it ; but by that proceeding they were making other lilies suffer, and instead of assisting the public, were '.tending injustice. Much had beer. said about the t a 0 prices that money now had in the realm ; curious ,yinions lied been adduced, but it plainly arose from tto fatal Restlicemn Bill of 1797. In vain was it teen urged that the measure would increase the issue nt paper ; that by doing so they would drive gold tr en the kingdom, and, by scarcity, create two erices. Argument had shewn, at that remote time, ee evil of which they were complaining. The Right H. , nourable Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Ex cealuer) then before him, had argued on a former d.ty, that the two prices were not in existence until eeey were created by my Lord King. Nothing more • telt . and patriotic had ever been proposed. Its object was to bring the evil into the public notice, creating teereby a necessity For enacting of some measure of public utility. In vain might they form Acts of Par liament on the relative value of paper and of gold, the transactions of life gave to the latter the prefer ence ; it was impossible by any act to stop the depre cietien of paper. By the measure proposed to be adopted, numerous evils atone : xll persons lending money on mortgage and annuities would be losers by t!ieir bargains, and defrauded of their just rights.— Government might take away the property from men, but they would not hinder the depreciation—(l:ear, !:ear !) —a general unwillingness would manifest it self among the dealings of the nation to recognize the decision of Parliament. All gold would be driven from the traffic of the nation into the hands of the Jews and smugglers, and our enemies would prosper by a measure unwisely proposed to assist ourselves. It was a doctrine quite inadmissible, that a twenty-shil ilng Bink.note and a shilling were equal in value to a guinea ; every person knew the cost of a guinea, and the consideration of that told them that paper was depreciated. Such were the measures adopted by the French in their paper system, and we were telly proceeding a little more slowly in the same ca reer. How, might he ask of his Majesty's Ministers, did they intend to hinder guineas from being sold to privete banks ? they would find it difficult to prevent such clandestine commerce, and he believed that the Bill would do no more than hinder, not amend the evils which had been complained of. From what had formerly fallen from the Right Honourable Gentle man (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) opposite, he might have concluded that no legislative measure was necessary. The same kind of transaction had taken place in Ireland, the Irish Members nev er deemed it necessary to make mention of it, nor propose any measure of remedy : but the moment when such a transaction appeared in position, his Majesty's Minis ters took the alarm, and proposed a measure instantly. Mr. CALCRAFT contended against the compa rison which the Hon. Gentleman ( Mr. Herbert) had made between the Bank assignats of France and the notes of . England ; 130,000,0(X) of the former were issued where there existed little national credit. The currency issued by elle Bank of Britain amounted enly to twenty-three millions, proceeding from a Go vernment secure in the Public faith. How could the Honourable Gentleman indulge himself in such wild comparison ? ot.ly showed how blind men might snake themselves by argument.—hear, hear.—Gen tlemen should reflect a little that those opinions and statemeuts they think proper to make are transmitted for the inspection of their country, and they ought to advance nothing which tends to uiterttle the public mind, unless they are assured of its renntiness beyond their own knowledge. He felt himself speaking with some pain, because he had to diffeeia opinion from many of his most esteemed friends. . He felt himself, therefore, called on to tell his reasons for the manner in winch he was about to vote. Once he deemed l tit. legislative provision necessary, but by the agi tation which be perceived in the public mind he soon swerved from that opinion, and believed that some legislative measure would actually be necessary be fore the prorogation of the existing Session of Parlia meat. The aspect of the country demanded Parlia mentary protection, and he deemed it necessary to bestow it. The proposed Bill made sure unto the tenantry of the kingdom what none but the Noble Lord (King) had ever doabted—the fixed value of Bank-notes. He was assured that nobody would follow the Noble Lord's example, yet it was safer to make one law too much, than to allow such mischie vous examples to be copied in the nation. The Bill proposed to prevent the sale of guineas above their stamped value, and the acceptance of Bank-notes be low their promise. Would any of the Honourable Gentlemen who had argued before him refer him to any transaction in life which shewed depreciation ? He was always willing himself to accept of a Bank. note for twenty shillings, and he was convinced th.:t no transaction in life could be adduced where Bank. netes had frillen below their nominal value. The Noble Lord ( King) had, however, discovered a fall ing off equal to 20 per cent. but for himself, he could not perceive why eighty millions of revenue paid in notes might not give a decided negative to deprecia tion. The acceptance of notes by tly Government as legal tender established a durable currency at once. He allowed that twenty shillings now could not purchase so touch as it would twenty years ago, yet that wit: a pie •of of a rise in the valise of comrnodi dities, not a fell in the value of money. The Bank notes returned thrice a-year to the Bank, which was a sufficient check on an exorbitant issue. The French assignats were forced upon the nation, and not re quired by the people but by the Government, to f;11 up the vacancy of public revenue. Should the Bank perceive that they have issued ton much, why they would know that it soon came back again by the ra. pidity of commerce. Last year there was a heavy pressure, and the Bet* issued a larger qnamity to meet that emergency ; the money %Val issued in De cemher, and by February following it was all recalled, for the money returned to its wonted medium. He eves not prepared to argue that the existing was the • hest possible state of circulation—(llear, hear.) —and he believed that a legislative measure was absolutely necessery. The exchanges had continued in favour ot wit little variation Britain, from the Bank restriction, - - :lAd t down to the last two years, when the depression of entn merce by the Edicts of France turned the rates of ex• change against us. Though he acknowledged that much, be did not deem it proper to recommence the cash payments at the Bank, so soon as seemed generally required. There were no gold equal to meet the con sequences of resumption in the country—there was no free trade, and we coma not find gold unless that we did it by traffic. Had they to pay for it, notes would do nothing in the purchase. (Hear, hear.) — Bank notes were created for internal currency. No assignment of goods, he was credibly informed, could be made to draw gold in any quantity from abroad. We needed therefore to content ourselves with a sys tem which for fourteen years had preserved the coun try in the most prosperous condition ever witnessed by any Government. The Noble Lord (King) and all the nation had in the Bank Restriction accepted paper for gold currency, and was the Noble Lord to demand from his tenantry what was not in circula tion ? His lands vere leased out after the restriction (Hear, hear) ; he was no stranger to the knowledge of rental payments it paper currency. Were the Noble Lord, or any other person, to distress a farmer because lie chose to pay his rent in common Bank note tenders, would he be assured that the goods would in auction, be purchased with gold ? What would the proprietor do with gold, he might not sell it above its legal value, and lie would have either to take it to the mai ket cr the crucible. (Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had written a book on the subject, and finding the public opinion tote against h.m, for the sake ot his r epination as an author, he made the pro position to his tenauts, that notes being 20 pounds per cent. depreciated, they must pay their rents in hard cash. He believed his Lordship to be a well mean ing man, but he feared that he had for got the Noble man in the Author. (Hear, hear.) Mr. HERBERT explained. Mr. BROUGHAM believed that his Honourable Friend ( Mr. Calcraft ) had considerably departed from his object, by treating the present measure as a fresh political subject. lie was willing to allow that the measure had emanated from the Report of the Bul lion Committ , e, though it was quite removed from the question of that day. The Honourable Gentle man had told them, and it was his whole argument, that a pound note and a shilling were equal to a gui nea in market ; then how came that Hon. Gentleman to assist such a Bill, which only confirmed what he knew and believed was the truth ?—(Hear, hear.) — Were they to pass a Bill expressly to confirm the opi nions of the Hon. Gentleman ? But there was a re solution an the table of the House which precluded the necessity ot framing any such a Bill as the pro posed one, it was one which constituted a Bank note at its nominal value.— (Hear, hear.) —That novel and portentous measure had produced ideas never before known in that House, and created measures linked with all the wild theories which even conjecture amas sed together, or the French, in their most chimerical schemes, had ever dreamed of executing. Whoever thought of constituting bargains between man and man by an express Act of Parliament ? That was the prin ciple of the Bill, and at that early hour he had risen to enter his feeble protest against such a measure ; he was afraid that clause after clause might have altered and softened down, till it wore a less alarming ap pearance in the eye of Parliament. But he solemnly asserted, that no Amendment, however specious, could do away the aim and scope at the Bill, there fore he seriously protested against it. He believed it to be a mere pretence, that which his Majesty's Mi nisters had given out as their motives for framing the Bill—the letter of Lord King to his tenantry. Why the Bill proposed aothing of the kind. It was a mere Bill to force that into a law 'which the Judges of the Courts of Law deemed illegal in particular cases. The Government raised a hue and cry in the country on Lord King's ietimation, and a clause was ' added to the Bill to meet the evil in question. The bill appeared to him, in its present shape, to be ut terly incapable of assisting the country, end was only,. fit for creating mischief : it would assist debtors mi cheat their creditor-, but vk ould be of no service to the people. By express enactment of the Bill, gui-; neas were allowed to be transported into Ireland. Thii real value of gold might there be received, and trans mitted back to the receivers in Britain, and even were these clauses omitted, the evils would not be reme- died. He did not approve of the manner in which, Lord King's intimation had been treated. He enter tained the highest respect and admiration for the cha racter of the Noble Lord, and perfectly approved of his conduct—(Hear, hear) ; but he could not abide to listen to his arguments being treated as the stable opinions of the public, they were promulgated as the notions of an individual. All that was proposed was exceedingly fair and law ful payment, at the bar gained price of land. No relief was offered by the Bill on that nor on any other description of creditors. Men might borrow the money of widows and or phans, and oblige their creditors to take the real value of the sum the same as though no law had ever been established. Suppose that a judgment was passed in the last t_rm yet unacted on, the cre ditors might seize the persons of their debtors, until they were paid in gold, in paper, or in goods. He hoped better things from the known character of *le Judges. He hoped they never would be found wil ling to stoop to the base association of which they were expected to become members. No, the fra mers of this preposterous Bill would never trust for support to a Court of Law or a Court of Equity.— The former would not meet their views, and the lat ter dare not. To what then must they have re course ? Why, to a further legislative provision, by which Bank-notes shall become a legal tender. And such a measure as this would, no doubt, be perfectly effiacious in the monstrous injustice it would be de signed to i jnflict. With respect to all past contracts, a vast miss of debt would be very easily got rid of, and many a fraudulent creditor would rejoice in the couttenance of the Legislature. But here its operation would in a great degree cease, and happy was it for society that it would. In endeavouring to point out its inefficiency with respect to contracts made subsequent to its adoption, he would first no tice the case of the public creditor, and he was the more willing to commence here, because from the ne cessity of protecting his rights the Right Honourable Gentleman had drawn his chief argument in sup port of the Bill, and had endeavoured to make pub tic feeling subservient to his egregious schemes with respect to the property of his fellow-citizens, sum moning up all his eloquence to describe the situation to which a meritorious and industrious class of mon, advancing with painful and laborious steps to the acquisition of a pittance for the support of approach ing age, would be reduced if their interests were not protected by some measure like the present. But he would tell the Right Hon. Gentleman, that his at tempts to serve those objects of his commiseration could be attended but by very partial success, nor could any measure be well devised, by virtue of which they, any more than any other classes of the commu nity, could escape the effects of the depreciated paper on their future contracts. An individual stockholder might indeed force upon his hard-hearted landlord, by virtue of the legislative protection with which he WAS about to be provided, the £3OO to which the Right Hon. Gentleman had adverted, if his lease happened to have been executed antecedent to the Bill ; but if it were otherwise, or if he were subse quently to enter on a new tenement, how would he be assisted ? Or how could he be assisted in his ac quisition of all the remaining necessaries which he would have to procure after his lodging was provided, 1 whether at a fair valve, or with the saving of so much i per cent ? Would the butcher or the baker, or the clothier participate in the compassion of the Right Hon. Gentleman, or bow to the intention of the le gislature, possessing the power of protecting them selves from it, and forbear, in his favour, to raise the price of ,heir several commodities—or wouid they not 1 triumph in their ability to render abortive a favour meant to be conferred at their expence ? So long, they would say, as we had a chance of having, one Iday or another, your paper converted into gold, so long we were satisfied to attach to it a value equal or nearly equal to what it professed to represent ; but now you come armed with an Act of Parliament against the effects of our reasonable apprehensions, land ma/gre your panoply, you shall soon find that you . are vulnerable. It is unnecessary , continued Mr. : Brougham, to particularize the persons, whether annuitants or others, who would be the chhi sut iferers from such a Bill as that now before the House; , it would suffice to say that a multitude of widows and of orphans would swell their numbers. Were i l those persons entitled to no sympathy, when their incomes were abridged ? Was all our compassion I to be reserved for the stockholder ?—Yet it was those among them who could least bear the loss on whom it would chiefly fall, for even small proprie tors who were generally obliged to eke out their scanty incomes by subsidiary means, were more ad dicted than the more wealthy individuals of the same class to grant leases. A long lease would, however, in future, be a very rare plienomencn— For what landlord, who could avail himself of the remedy which an annual tenure would afford him against so daring an attempt to violate his rights, would neglect to do so ? Nor did he know which most to wonder at, an assembly composed of lauded proprietors disposed to acquiesce in a measure virtu ally abolishing the tenure by lease, or the Minister who was bold enough and blind enough to propose it. It was now 22 years since the commencement of an event so fatal to mankind (the French Revolution) when it was pretended that the peasant must be re lieved against the landlord ; when the words used by Reformers were peace to the cottage and war against palaces ; the end of which was the filling tit the pa ' lace with alien inhabitants, and surreteAding the cot tage with horrible conscription. Similar to these was the pretended relief to be given to tenants against the demand of Lord King. And what must be the shocking consequences of introducing such principles as these into a great commercial country ? He knew of no substitute for this measure but one, and that i was, the substitution of two prices, one for gold, and i another for paper, the prices to be left to their own ' level. He knew of no other cure but this. The gui neas would then be found as easily as it was for De , Yonge and Wright to have the g uineas. ( Hear, hear.) 1 1 How did it happen that we had win e and other com modities, from abroad ? We had claret from trance, under all r e strictions ; and could not guineas be more easily conveyed on board ships ? He did not mean to say, that guineas could be got for paper ; but they could be procured for commodities, in the . same way as claret was procured. All the Spanish and Portuguese wines were open to us, alit' there would be no difficulty in getting gold, provided tile fair price was given for it. Now this double price Iwould always be the test, and the pulse, for estima ting the amount and value of paper ierculation ; and there would be little danger of the evil proceeding ; for by this test the Bank would be ooliged to draw iii its issue ; and the evil of enorm ,us circulation would be done away. The Parliament then might repeal the Bank restriction, and put it in t he p ower of the i Bank to comply with their honest feelings by dis charging their debts. There was another considera tion—he would have all the overpius Bank Stock pro fits—those unfair gains of the Bank—placed in a se parate fund ; with a *proviso that as soon as the Bank resumed its cash payments this fund should be given to the Bank as a bonus. This would be, if not a re medy, an important palliative to the existing evil.— It was said, no depreciation of notes existed, and yet 1 that necessaries had risen in price , but that all this arose from the financial embarrassments of the coun -1 try. For all this, he believed, there was no earthly foundation. But it the assertion was true, thete was a speedy way of relieving the country from all embar rassments. Take off, by a sponge, 200 millions of the national debt ; and, of course, diminish the inte rest paiLi to stockholders. If there was any truth in the arguments then of those who said, the high price of provisions arose from taxes, a diminution would necessarily follow in the prices. It was on their own doctrines he called on Gentlemen to try this experi ment, and then let them see if the high prices arose solely from such causes. But, boldly as the Right Hon. Gentleman imitated the arrogant conduct of his predecessor, it was not likely that. he would have the confidence to make such an encroachment on the claims of the . public creditor, Here the Learned Gentleman drew comparisons between the money system of this and other countries ; and began by noticing the expedient which Frederick 11. of Prus sia had recourse to for the support of his finances ; and which was, that of issuing a base coin, which he was at last obliged to declare by a proclamation to be a legal tender. The expedient did not succeed ; but it had a better effect than our measure, because the fraud was not discovered till the silver came to be worn away from the copper. Were we then to imitate measures so profligate in their principle as this? If so, he despaired of the safety of the country. Mr. MILNE Was of opinion that the Hon. Gee:le • man had introduced much irreLvent matter into his speech. The Hon. Gentlemen ( Mr. Milne) then went on to chew the extreme unfairness of Lord King's notice and conduct; and this positioa he illustrated • by asking how that Noble I.ord had been paying fur {salt, coals, candles, &c. ? Had he not been peying for these things in this said deprecieted currency With this depreciated currency had lie not paid for i I these things, and he had not proved to any one that the Bank paper which he proffered had been refuses in any one instance to his detriment ; but though Le . had paid in this depreciated currency, yet he now I stepped forty :rd and told his tenalats that he cteild receive their rents in gold only, he knowing; that it would be impossible to comply with his :pee dixit, except at an immense, at an almost ruin()()-, loss. But a law ought to be made to compel those who re quired payment in gold also to pay in gold.--(//care (hear.) —The evil of such a proceeding would then correct itself. He would digress somewhat from his main argument, to illustrate the mischievous tendency of the Notate Lord's conduct. If the Noble Lord's example were followed, how considerably would it affect the revenue of the country—those taxes which were not ad valorem, such as the Property Tax ; but were describable under the head, specific duties, such for instance as that on wine, which was so much far I fle e , d about an d aC the() . G 0 I v f e L T n o m r de Government King'swe reelamp compelledle were to 1 "l 1 re ceive the depreciated paper (for that conduct would (depreciate the paper), there would be annually a virtual remission of the taxes calculated on of . about ' ten millions sterling.—(Hear, hear.) —Such would be the effect of persevering in the Noble Lord's exam ple, and of so undervaluing the paper which the I Government would be forced to receive. He regret. ) i ted much that the Noble Lord had acted so unwise ly ; but since Parliament had resolved on providing a remedy for the evil that was caleatleted to result from it, he thought the case should be met fully. The Bill before them did not go far enough. Each person who required to be paid in gold, should in re turn be compelled to pay in gold ; and in order that Government might receive the Assexed Taxes to the full and actual amount that had been named by Par liament, landlords and others should be obliged to pay them in gold or in paper after the scale of depre ciation which had been named. Such an act would meet the evil. The Noble Lord's conduct went to make that insecure, the security of ulna only could enhance its value. What made his land valuable, but , the security in which he held it? His conduct in issu ing the notice he did was in direct opposition to the spirit of those laws by which he had been protected. He (Mr. Milne) could not be insensible to self-inte rest; and he could not forget that it was "n his 'allied property he relied, and he looked forwerd to that for the meiotenance of his own importance. He could not forget taro of what importance land owners were in the country ; and he still found that they conti nued to be what they always ha .1 been, in his estima tion, of greater weight than either the great capita- Ilists, the fundholders, 14 . the West India planters.— : Hi: remembered of what witiglit were the tandhold . ers, and lie was thanktul for the blessings which he enjoyed as one of them ; but he would not theretore . sit down and calculate the deieleation that would re sult from being paid in an assumed depreciated cut- I rency. He was ready to admit that Lord King was distinguishable for the possession and exercise of many virtues ; but his recent conduct had promoted a most mischievous discussion.—(Near, hear !) l'he lauded and monied intereststs could not be separated ; and by the support of one, they would maintain the other. ; Experience showed that they could not be separated; comotned they promoted the prosperity and happiness of the country. A sage of old was asked his idea of a perfect Constitution. ~ That's a perfect one," re plied he, " which conceives the insult offered to the lowest individual in the State to be an insult offered to the Constitution itsclf..' if such were the correct idea .it a perfect Constitution, how near our's must ap proach perfection ! The Bill before them illustrated his remark ; Parliament had taken into consideration that act which went to injure most materially the lowly but honest tenantry of another part of the king dom ! The Bill, as far as it went, he approved; but in his opinion it did not go far enough Sir THOMAS 'FUR VON contended, that if there were a necessity for such a Bill as the one before then), then indeed would there be a proof of the assumed depreciation of Beek notes. With Lord King's no tice he found great tault. The Noble Lord remarked —.. There being a depreciation of Benk-notes," dec. Why did the Noble Lord assume such a fact ? It was unfair to take it for granted that notes had depreciated. The Hon. Baronet then maintained at greet length, that there v. as no necessity for the Bill b.-fore them. The example of Lord King had not been tollowed in one single instance ; and even had it been follow ed, the evil would have worked its remedy. He then took a view of what would be the probable re sult of Lord King's notice, and strongly urged the moral impossibility there was of his plan being car ried into execution, even had his Lordship persevered. As to the injustice that some had talked about of forcing the circulation of Bank-notes, what could be mere unjust, he would ask, than to send a poor tenant to jail because he could net pay his rent in gold? from peculiar circumstances gold had withdrawn from ge neral circulation ; and it would be unjust in the ex treme to endeavour to force a tenant to purchase gold at an immense loss, when he could get nothing but Bank paper for the commodities which he took to market. " Oh ! but you must get gold in return for your commodities," the landlord would say ;—well, then, if the tenant were to insist on such payment, he would find nu purchassers, except at a most ruinous loss. It was ridiculous in the extreme to talk of paying in gold, to tell tenants they must pay in gold, for the Bullion Report had proved that at was not practicable at the present moment tor causes which they assigned. But he must again observe, that Lord King should have been lett alone, that Par liament had done wrong in entertaining the bill for one moment. The reveries of every tanciful finan cier ought not to furnish subjects for the grave deli berations of the Legislature. The project was fanci ful and absurd in the extreme, and Lurd King, had Parliament nut interfered, would have found it Me possible to persevere. He would not have dared to endea vour to bear up against the torrent of public ()pillion, so much as to persevere in his notice. He would have found the general indignation too strong to cope With. If he ejected people from his farms because they