Star. — London, England, 1816-04-05 00:00:00

1 , .. --- . - ' Irroughtiri to enable Lord Grenville to retain•the Isffice of Auditor of the Exchequer, that created no new salary ; there.was no augmentation of expense. The only object of that Bill was to sanction a union= of two offices, Which had before been considered as' not capable of .being held by the same individual, . but had the. Biil never passed, the salary of Auditor, _ and the salary of the. first Lord of the Treasury, vault! equally have subsisted. With regard to the great quesition of Ptiblie Economy, he hoped to see that carte r, as question of the Income Tax wile carried. He was quite Mated. that no exertions in that Homo would have saved the country from that Tar, if the country itself had not raised its voice.— It firm; deliberate, constitutional Petitions of . the Ptople, backing their Representatives, which *lone *tined 'the rejection al the Tax.—( Hear, kear,) The same quiet, constitutional, and energetic souse now would obtain the same results? but if the people deserted their own cause, ii, -h.►ving obtained_ one triumph, they remained passive, if they did not use all their means of approaching that House and de claring their sentiments, they wouli.thid that no teal, substantial, and piactical economy would be adopted by Ministers ; on the . contrary, they would he amus ed and deluded with the " unreal mockery" of it, While, in fact, the same system of improvident ex penditure-would be maintained.—( Hear, bear.) 'The Petition war then read. Upon the question that it should lie on the table— Mr. BARHAM rose and observed, that he could speak from his own personal knowledge, as to the truth of the allegations which it contained. Nothing could equal the distress which wa,s felt by all classes of persons employed iu Agriculture, in that part of Wales from which h came. With respect to what bad fallen frum an Honourable Member, about his willingness to support a Ministerial system of econo my, if his meaning had been misunderstooJ, he hoped he would take the opportunity of explaining himself, before the sukject then under discussion was disposed'of. He could assure him, it would make a very strong impression upon his constituents, ii they knew, as probably they would know, that he was not prepared, to support any plan of real and practical economy, from which ever side of the House it might come.. Mr. JONES observed, that all he said was, that he should be more disposed to support a system of economy, upon a large and adequate scale, if pro posed by Ministers, than ewe which might come hem the other side of the House. With respect to his constituents, he thanked the. Hon. Member for his advice, but he had little doubt of being able to satisfy their expectations. After some further conversation between Lord COMPTON, Mr. PROTHEHOE D Mr. SHAW LEVEVHIC, Mr. Lyrrt.trow, Sir C. BURRELL, anJ Sir EGEUTON &crowns, the Petition iil'4.s ordered to lie on the table. Mr..PROTHEKOE presented a Petition from cer tain parsons residing in Bristol, against the proposed erecti•wt of a new Jail.--Orelered to lie on the table. Mr. ELLISON presented a Petition from the Tanners, Comers, and others concerned in cite Lea ther Trade, residing in the City of Peterborough, against the Leath:r Tax.—Read, and ordered to lie On the table. Mr. GOULBURN laid up.iir the table, a schedule of the Colottial Act. • Lord CA,STLE.REAGH mr.ved the third read. ing of Bon.ip4rte's detention Bill, and the St. Helena Intercourse Bill, both of which were- accordingly read and passed. The Eacise Bill, And the Promissory Note Bill, were both read a third time and passed. Sir C, MONCIE moved an Address to his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, for a Copy of the In- Atructions sent out to. Lord Collingwood, respecting the lonian Islands.—Ordered. Lord NUGENT presented a Petition from the Town of Aylesbury, praying for the most rigid Eco nomy, and deprecating so large a Standing Army in time of• peace • which, after a few observations from the Noble Lord, and a declaration from Lord G. CAVIIIIMMI, that he gave the Petition his most hearty Nippon, was read, and ordered to lie on the table. WICONSTITUTIoNAL EMPLOYMENT OF TUE MILITARY. Lord MILTON, alluding to the frequent employ- Meat of the Unitary, felt it to be the incumbent duty of the House to pay some attention to that imp*. iant subject. He was the more anxious on this ac count. that in going this day through Pall-mall, in ao open carriage, with a friend, he had been insulted by one of the soldiers stationed on duty there, and his cartiage stopped. He asked the 'name and ad dress of the soldier, which he was refused, and the soldier then struck his horse, mut threatened, unless he • went back, be would strike him also.—(Hear, hear), -The horse was struck by a sword which the soldier Was brandishing in his hand. Yet Ministers had the presumption to tell the House that the Mili tary writ stationed for the purpose of preserving the) peace, and for the protection of his Majesty's subjects. It was a very fine way of keeping the peace, to in. stilt his Majesty's subjects, to threaten to knock them dnfrn, and yet tell them you were protecting them. (i ear, hear). —It was not on account of his personal, injury that he now brought this business before the House. He did so from a coraiction of its impor tance to the Constitutional rights of .the subject, and because he thought the Noble Lord and his Colleagues' were desirous to accustom the people to Military pa rade, rend thus prepare them for the horrors of Mili•l tary despotism.—(her, hear, hear). Lord CASTLEREAGH replied, that every man who knew the crowds which generally convened to wanes* Court days, must be aware of the necessity of adopting some measure to-preserve older. He was extremely sorry for the inconvenience which the Noble Lord (Milton) had Met- with ; but he bad no doubt that, laying aside this single occurrence, the Noble Lord could bear witness to the general good temper, affability, and prudence with which the Mi. litany always discharged their duty on such public occasions.—[No, no from Lord Milton]. --Every possible attention should be paid to prevent such an • iireonventence in foture. In appointing guards, Mi. misters had no motive whatever but the convenience "ot the Public, and the preservation of gor:d older. Lord MILTON would bear as much as any wan . could do, or might be expected to do, on such oc casions; yet, while he believed there was a.neces sky =for .same persons to keep older. he bad the strong est *estimate the 'Unitary at all aware% on nigh oevalase. „~_-~ . • •- 7,, • - •. ~ ~' j ~ i Lord N U GENT bow testimony 'tb t he good con duct of the Life Guards, Apn they , ivere catted out on any pane irceashwt.' wit• nets the repe'ated employulsot cf the Military, and to see how frequently they were called out when there was no came to justify ,their being employ-s, ed itt all. . Lord CA.STLEREAGO observed, that it wec quite common to see the /Military employed on any public occasion, such as reviews, die. and haiaw no necessity for saying so much as Gentlemen on the opposite side seemed inclined to do. Mr. TIE . RNEY considered that his Noble Friend had done right, in bringing this subject before the House v . "/ The most glaring innovatiens were now introduced in the employment of military 'aid, in such a manner as was sanctioned neither by law nor practice. Guards were now stationed, not as for merly, merely at St. James's, bat through the whole of Pall-mall, and he could assign no reaspa for it, but the d esign Ministers bad of accustoming the oeople to Military spectacles ---( Wear, hear). --He Thought the Military had no right to be employed, excepting when the Civil. Power was likely to be thwarted, then, and only then, they might be called.' He hoped the Noble Lord.(Castlereagh) ,would pay some attention to this, and endeavour to remove this dangerous inconvenience. With respect to die , at tack made on his Noble Friend, the public might thank GOD there had been no murder committed, for had his Noble Friend been choleric, the most serious v•eisequences might have ensued. But he deprecated these frequent Military parades, not merely on the , ground of inconvenience. He decidedly thought they were done by Ministers, for the purpose of mak ing strtie apoloer to the House for the increase of the 1-I , niceltold '1 roops.--( Loud cheer: from the Ofifie• sition).—He would repent it t it was a part of the system Monsters had adopted for persuading the Horse to sanction this increase in thi Household Troops.—(Repealed cheer:). —The case was very dif: ferret in the City, when public fistivals took place. He would allude, in a particular manner, to the Mansion-House on Easter Monday, and he would ask, how did the Lord Mayor act on these occasions? Why, although there was of course a very great number of persons present there, and a vast crowd always assembled to see them going in, yet his Lord ship had always, in a Constitutional manner, which ,did honour to himself .and the City, discharged a single soldier from'appearing.—(Lead ewer:).--On the same principles be thought Ministers should act, and he therefore decidedly condemned their conduct. as a violent breach of the Constitution.—(Never). Lord CASTLEREAGH explained. Mr. WY NN complained of the use of the Military as an innovation on the Constitution, and as a system of pplicy which the House were bound to resist. It was an assuMption of right in the name of the Sove reign, which was not justifiable on any ptinciple; and while he had frequently seen soldiers, in the must daring manner, draw their swords, and insult Englishmen. he considered the House would not do their duty, did they not put an immediate stop to such practices. Soldiers could Only be employed as the assistants of Constables, and in no other case had any right to interfere. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER . considered the employment of troops to he necessary on such public occasions. He saw nothing in the Law or Constitution of the country to condemn this practice, which bad long been used, and ices be Ng means so novel as the opposite Members meant to in. sinuate. Court days were now very rare, and :Ouch better attended in consequence. He thought the use of the military was not extended beyond what was justified by convenience —(Hear)—and, as an esta blished custom was not to be infringed. The puce , officers were al ways to be first employed, no doubt, yet their efforts required the support of the military. Lord POLKSTONE was astonished to hears that this military parade was an established usage in the country. It was not so t and he distinctly remem bered when the military were nut employed. except on the two birth-days—(Hear).—He remembered when Court-days were very frequent, yet his Majesty had never employed military, but only a few cun stables—(Hosr).—Now, however, the case was very different, for the military were armed with the full power. He had some hopes, from what had passed in the beginning of the Session, to have seen some arrangement on this head, but he was now so-dis gusted with the attachment of Ministers to this parade of military pomp, that he seldom went to any public place. Yet this day be had seen soldiers stationed at Hyde Park-corner, where no doubt, Ministers, world say there was great necessity for them —(Lough).--- An argument was brought, in favour of this military parade from its convenience, but he protested that this was ne palliation. Military spectacles, and mi litary guards, might do very well in military go. vernments, where the energies of a people were pa ralyzed by despotism, but they were hostile so the genius of the British Constitution—(Cheer:).—ln' a free government there must, be inconreniencirs, , but these must be submitted to, and not be re moved bythe unwarrantable stretch of power( Chun). He was glad the Noble Lord (Milton) had brought this before the House, and he thought the country were very much obliged to him for so doing. He implored the House to do their duty on this occasion, and to show the world that while they acted as men, they would do their duty as British Senators—(Hear). Mr. CALVERT concurred in the great disadvan tage which the public endured frem the use of the military. and which he had repeatedly borne himself in the district of the town where he lived. His car riage had been repeatedly stopped in the street by sol diers, and himself and his brother obliged to walk 'A considerable way round about. Mr. PONSONBY observed that ) as the word 1 4 in convenience," was pretty often adopted by the Noble Lard (Castlereagh) and the Right Honourable Gen tleman (Mr. Vansittait) he would shottly attend to it. He was astonished, he was indignant to hear such an unconstitutional expression used by any Member of the House ' as the Right Honourable Gentleman had done . He (-Mr. Vansittart) had said he theught the iotetfereuce sit the military was not to be extended beyond convenience"—(Hear, hear). —But who was to judge of that convenience ? (Near, hear).—Who wits to determine bow far it should 'go and no further I Was it the Right Ho neurable Gendeman or his colleagues I Was it. to br jitilied of by any man in that House l Convenience !arm admirable argument, which the Right Ho- -. , **arable Gentleman and his Noble friend and col it ague (Castlereagh) st+med to have o.. But sup pose A ntehosayman should meet 'the R ight Honour. able Gentleman, lin d ke his pyrite Irony hint, what a fine apology wrath! it make for the highwayman at the. Old Bailey, wet, he to say, u 0, I took theperse because it was serf eoafeenieut for me to :lave it, and there was not a shilli,ru in it ve!lich I could coriveni ently do without."—( Muth labghier) —This was pre cisely the case with the Honourable Gentleman, and his apology for the military was *tact)) , the same with the' apology of the highwayman for taking the purse—(Muth lairghter.)—But since the Secretary for the' Home Department was now to have his iatentiou usufivided laugh)—since by the decision of last night he was to be exclusively confined to domestic concerns, would not this abyse of military power be a very.proper subject for his notice ?—(Hear.)—He denied that any power of the nature they had lately usurped, was justifiable in the military If the Go vernment required aid to keep the peace, let them call for peace officers, het not for military. Let them remember this is, Britain, this.is a free country, not a nation of slaves—(C/seer: ).—He trusted the Right Honourable Gentleman would reflect on what he had said. He hoped he would put away the ar gument of convenience, and annihilate that word out of his vocebulaty —(4 laugh).—Let him remetn ' bee that convenient may suit very well the caprice of a tyrant, but is compatible with the native rights of free-born Britons. Our Coti,a,tittion, nit our eon , venience, was the standard of ditty.. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in explanation, dented his having used the expression Alluded to in the manner imputed to him by the Right Honourable Gentleman. He said Merely convenience justified the use of the military, by pro. moting.order and preserving trapqnillity. Mr. BROUGHAM said, as the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) had stated his intention to put a stop to the inconvenience Of the military, the . House would be better pleased to see that intention realized. At the same time he did not perceive on what grounds the Right Hon. Gentleman (tbe Chancellor of the Exchequer) could justify this military parade as an established usage. It was now carried on to an extent, in frequency and in manner, which called for the reprobation of the House. He said in fre quency and in manner, and he would shortly allude to each of these. IVitls respect to its frequency, about SO years ago he recollected no military. whatever were to be-seen any where except on the tt::th days of the Km* and Qoeen, and even then it was but a novel tight go get them on those days, for in the be ginning of the present reign onlx a few constables were employed. But now not a single publie.44,pf any importance occurre d , without a gland military parade. With respect to the manner in which the military wereemnloyed ; about twelve tie.trs• ago he recollected only halt a dozen guards weiesfationed at the Palace, but now almost iu .1 1. 42: Mall , on each side of the street, soldiers were stationed not two. yards distant from each other, as had been the case this morning. He had seen Pail Mall, and"though not half a dozen of carriages were in sight, the atreet as guarded by soldiers, preiented a most imposing spectacle. There .was no Crow', yeribldiers were stationed in the most improrrunconstittltional man ner. he knew well this I .:trade arose from a childialt vanity in persons of a bizh• . Tank, yeti' trifling as it might appear, and did Appear Jo. them, it was ex.- ttemelurejudicial to the interests of the Constitu tion. J. here was not the smallest occasion for than at Buckingham House, no more than thcre was at the Theatres or Mansion House, and he. trusted it would be checked in suture. L)rd CASTLEREAGII justified the use' bf the military, and ifieught Oe alum of danger to the con stitution existed only in the minds oT the Gentlemen opposite. He say, no possible danger from the cm; ployment of soldiers in keeping off a crowd. ' Mr. W. SMITH WAS against the asp of the mili tary, and deprecated the unhappy situation of the poor.private, who was placed, in consequence of the rigorous orders he received, between two fires— (.4 laugh.) He had either to disobey his officer, and let passengers go on nithotit interruption, or he must insult them in the manner complained ot. Mr. BENNET wished the Noble Lord and his Right Honourable colleague (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would inquire a little more Mu) the his tory of this military establishment, before they so confidently pronounced it to be of long standing. They would find a very different case on inquiry. They Would find his Majesty had not taken that pleasure in military parades which seemed so much the de light of the present day. They would find that in coming to Parliament or going any where else, he had oily been attended by a few gthirds round his coach, and that the streets had never been so formi dably guarded as they were now when any public occasion occurred. He denied that he or his friends had only an imaginary alatm tespecting the dangers of the Constitution. The statement of his Noble Friend (Lord Milton) spoke for itself, ati s l silf6tiently proved the danger which this colliery might reason ably fear from the unwatrantable, unparalleled exer tions of the military. He had no occasion to say aught ini it—it spoke for itself. Englishmen were now to be insulted with impunity, Rll4 stopped do. the highway by soldiers. Let any man examine the numerous soldiers. employed at very Carlton-house Levee,. and let him say candidly whether this rage for military pomp be not dangerous ? Let him,look. back to the wise paternal conduct of his present Ma jesty, while discharging the functions of Sovereigntyi let hint compare the number of 'soldiers then 'em ployed, with the number now-called out,. and if his mind be not fettered with the trammels of party-spit it he cannot but acknowledge that the present system is fraught with danger. Lord CAs rLEREAGH thought the statement ,of the last speaker was a very high coloured . one. Mr. BENNET asked, whether thrcelutnn of ca valry often before Canton Het*, was nbt an inno vation ? - • . . Lord NUGENT considering it important to the House to receive some intormation .tetpecting the powers of the utiliser' on suck Occasions, :breed for .. • a Copy of " the Instruction. which:wete Mien to the Troops stationed OD duty 'this day at Westminster." Lord CASTLERY.AGH iieCidedly opposed the motion. Mr. WYNNE' th4ught the condirct the Noble Lord is this business was somewhat singular, he also thought the ompleAme# was gentrary . to the her t and yet the Chancellor of . the F.trbei r p r had told the House it was cooveoient to ern e? 'them: Where was that convenience W as not i t convenience of every man as much to he consoliq as thOconvenience of those going to CAnt ti e would ask the Noble Lord whether his Noble N 44 would not have been legally justified in putting 6, person to death who thus insulted and slept him _ He wished the country to know that no man had a right to be script in the streets on any pretext wh A . ever. He wished it to be publicly known, thy /I , person whatever dared, on ally prrience, to stop British subject from going on highway. This was a privilege which whect, and a privilege which•they ware leg fl) , eirti occasion tb make use of. He therefor.. supported motion most heartily. After a few words from Mr. BATH uftsT, who in opposition to the motion, the House divid , d—E l the motion Bl—Against it 48—Majority 17 Mr. ABERCROMBY asked the Right H on , s e . cretary for Ireland whether any steps had been N i tta by Government relative to the- office of Clerk of o e Pleas an the Court of Exchequer in ' , clad! _ _ _ - - Mr. PEEL replied, that he expected everyday the Report of the Commissioners of inquiry in I n l and on that subject; and until that arrived, h e wish e d to postpone any further statement on the subj ect . Mr. L. FOSTER described the indetatigsble at. tention of the Commissioners of Inquiry in Ireland to the subjects submitted to their inveltigatio, and r e . marked particularly, that with regard to tha tto whith the question of the Hon. and Learned G en d ittmert. ferred, it :Ind been found rieceisary to go intoarnu c h more extensive examination of evidence than had beep at first apprehended. . - Mr. ASERCROMBY did not impute blame to any one, but wished to know whether or not any practical measure had been adopted on the subjecti Mr. PEEL said, that although it was of coma.. impossible to acquiesce in the claim of the Chiat.sa ron, yet that it had not been deemed prope..tithents w institute any proceeding on the subjm an a Court of Law. After a few observations from Mr. PONSONBT and Mr. FOSTER, on the nature of . the evidence requited for the elucidation of the eAte, the cot:No.4m dropped. On the motion of Mr. Timm, an Account was ordered to be Laid before the. House, showing the to. tal amount of Droits of the Crown and of the Admi. rahy, received from the Ist of January, 1814, to the latest period to which the same could be made out, together with a statement of the amount paid out, specifying the periods of payment, and the übjects f4r which paid-. Sir I'. ACLAND presented a Petition from the North of Devon, stating the distresses existing in that neighbrur hood, and the necessity of,a rigid attention to economy.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. D. BROWN presented a Petition from the Freeholders, Merchants, &c. of the County of May., deseibing the distressed sta . e of their Trade, and praying that. Parliament would adopt measures to shelter them from Foreign competition.—Ordered to lie on the tatfle. STAT 2 nit IRCLAND. Sir JOHN NEWPORT tieserved, that having given notice of his intention this day to submit to the Howie a motion respecting the state of Ireland, lie had flattered himself, that however unworthy and in. capable of the task he might be, yet that the maple. tulle of tf.e eiibject would have insured a Intl attend ance in the House.—( tar, h,:ar, hear!) He felt too strongly the importance of the question, involving as it did the tranquillity and welfare cf so large a put of the British Empire, to se-neire to agitate it is a House so .thin as that which h, was addressing. (Hear, hear.) With every respect therefore for those who had done him the honour to attend on the occa. sinn, he felt that he should not di-.;charge duty to the country', if he did not postpone his muion until the 21th, when he did hope that Honourable Gentle men, whatever might be their opinion of the incem. .potence of the person who was to address then% would at least think proper : .to be present at the dis cussion of a subject of such paramount importaoce— (Hear, hear.) Sir N. COULTHURST approved of the Hon. Baronet's determination,' and expressed his hope that there would be a fuller attendance when the subject was brought forward. Sir E. BR YDGES suggested a later period than the 24th ; but • • •- • - Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, that W he appointed a later time, he should Lose the assistance on the ques tion of talents and eloquence, with which he could not dispeme. Mr. PEEL fully coincided la the surprise and fa• isret of the Hon. Baronet at the thinness of attend• mice on the present 'occasion. Whatever variety of opinion might exist as to the political condition(); Ire land, it was utiquestionably a subject of paramount importance. He cordially c.‘nctirrei the propnety of postponing the discussioe Mr.. PLUNISErf ever ely concurred in the semi. merits so properly expresses by the Right HOBOUr• able Gentleman who had just spoken. He most ele : I peaty recommended to hic Majesty's Government tct. avail themselves of the interval which would ecru before the agitition of the question, to turn the"; minds to the serious consideration of the sall i ed; for he was satisfied that r.o partial measures could be. plo posed -by any individual which would effectUally mat the existing evils ; but that a geneual system muse be adopted, in order to cure the.: adical v:ces of the Go' veintnent of that country. Lord CASTLEREAQH admitted, that it would r not be satisfactory to the individual bringing forward this subject, or creditable to Parliament itself, to 410‘ tate so large a question in so small a House. hoped that when the %tieject should be brought r9 l : ward, it would meet a itli the undivided attenuon oi the House, and experience a calm and temrrate die cussion. it was impossible to expect that the cosi' Aeration of a subject so extensive could be closed is one year; but it behoved the House to watch over 'the rising greatness of Ireland, and to discover the best remedy. for those evils by which it had so long been repremed. Free as tile investigation would , as he trusted, be, from the spi; it of party, anduabiassed by ahy considerations but the public g ood, he CO. tessed that be should look to the result with the greatest confidence and expectation. • Mr. lE .agreed entirel,y with w'iat bgell - said .4.these Honourable Members who tust. . .c 1 1 a a 4