Star. — London, England, 1811-01-29 00:00:00

4 Theo was eonsequentlf:he his opinion no remake --ndment moved by his Noble Fund, anti! bound to give it his opposition. el of COVENTRY reliamuch on the ife. of his Royal Highness the Prince of Wiles, and i l l' e eele :,at power :night safely be intrusted in his .is, and theref o re vets in &vonr of the amendment. 'l'ho Marquis of STAFFORD contended, that in , the present question, all personal consider:a ti ns s'inuld be kept out of sight. There were car. crmtances in which restrictions might justly be con. ,:ered as necessary. Such were , the circumstances el 1 1 , . • -cc; • %t "er' Noble Lord must feel how different were the circumstances of that period from those of (:resent. We were then at peace, we were now at war with almost all Europe. The King's age was' also a circumstance that must now strike every ► one. Hii Majesty had reached a period .of life which the generality of mankind do net attain. The restric tions to be imposed now on the Regent should not be measured on the rule of those Which it might have been proper to impose in 1789. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, he would not hesitate to repeat what he had said on a former occa sion respecting the period of the limitations and re strictions, and the probability of the time when it might be expected that his Majesty should be reco vered. Whether the period was counted from the Ist 1 November or the lit January was immaterial as to i the probability of the King's recovery. On the oc casein to which allusion had been made. he had stated no opinion on that point; he only entered his protest against the mierences which were then drawn from - , what he had said. Such inference he should ever dis regard, taking always for the rule of his conduct what he conceived to be his duty. By that alone', d em ie h e be guided, even were he to differ in opinion lean every man with whom t he was accustomed to act. hie had never acted without consulting the Phy sicians ; but if he saw itethaellifs' daft* act in Oppo: - si:ion to that neinion, he wotdd . thinit himself bound' so to act. He did not know ,what the nature of the crime of that m in would be who did not actaccoed. lee to his conscience, and in allegiance to his King. As to the opinions of the Physiciansoh certain points, he would not-be much influenced by them. In these ors:sec:s they were as ignorant as any man who was not of the medical profession ; and . they were ready to acknowledge the uncettainty,of all medical prog nostics. They Would not . therefore pronouece any ceruin opinion as to the precise period of his Maks tes recovery. And were they slid to say his Ma jesty's recovery would be speedy, or if they said it. would not be Speedy', the authority on either side would have no weight with him. He would not believe the prediction on that authority. Of this, however, he was convinced that there was now a very material amendment in the state of his Ma jesty's health. This-he believed upon his salvation, and if he were called upon to render an account of it, he would ultimately say, there Was a most mate rial amendment in his Majesty's case. But now to the question. What should be the restrictions, if any, and for period of time should they be laid on the Regent ? J all the powers of the Crown were to be conferred on the' Regent, it would be immate rial whether the period was to be tiU the Ist of Au gust or the Ist of February; but the propriety of the latter period grew out of the very. principle of the restrictions. Much was said 'about third.; ..uece be. tween the case of 1788 and the presenta but he had heare nothing that justified the distiqction, as to the line to be pursued on the present occasion. Though he should differ from all the world, still he would hold to his trim opinion, because it was an opinion which he had maturely and conscientiously formed. Whatever might be the conjectures of the physicians as to the precise pniqt of tnne of the King's reco very, they could say nothing positive and certain ; as weli might they attempt to say, a Let there be li g ht" on the Royal mind, " and there was light." He was ready to admit, thatell the prerogatnen of the Crown were for the good of the people, and he still trusted they would be exercised again byhisMajesty. Earl GREY observed, that if principle upon which the Noble Lords opposite him professed to act tpon, were to be the guide of the-Mouse, they might adopt this particular, as well es the general restric tions. But he, who regarded the whole system as injurious to the country, as injurious to the Monar-' chy, and injurious to the Monarch, for whom the Noble and Learned Lord professed such a solicitous attachment, would unreservedly declare what were his sentiments ; and in so doing, he would trust to the H .use, and trust to their country, who he hoped would see that he performed his duty, even at the t isk of his character. That duty compelled him, to rise and arraign the Noble and Learned Lord, for the conduct he had pursued, a conduct which he would describe by no less a name thin • that of treasone . — The Noble and Learned - Lord asked a what would be the nature of the crime of that man who would act against l.is conscience, and in defiance of the elle giaece which he owed to his Sovereign He would answer by putting another question to the Noble and I.earded Lord, and he would ask, what would be the character of the crime comnsittefl by the man, who, when the King's incapacity to exercise the It,,yel Functions, was known...unwed. and proved,' could come down to that House, and declare,l th..t there was no suspension of the Royal Authority, and who would put the Great Seal to Acts when he was not authorised so to do He would net hesitate to say that the crime of such a men was that of tree.' Eon to the country and the Constitution. He would not impute tiny motive to the Noble and Learned • .Lord, hut such as he thought his conduct *should be .'hided by ; :nit when he talked of the speedy reco: 'try of his Majesty, and next said that • the period of recovery was indifferent to the question, he spoke I tng:i tge which to him was wholly unintellite a, o would co n t en d t h at t he N o bl e an d L earne d a , d expressed no opinion, at least he did not e x pl a i n :Le that opinion was. He wished, if the Noble 'and , ear;;•,.l Lord had not said that he looked to his iee:sees speedy recovcry,'that he would repeat it, n(1 ~ s wrt that he did not give such an opinion.— e as desirable to know what he said, and what ht 1h opinion, it he had any; but instead of ex ;lle a, the Noble and Learned Lord ran off, refeavoured to escape in some fine declama. The Noble and - Learned Lord seems to pay tt!r or no respect to the bpinions of the Physicians ; ov itl give no Credit to [belle Opilllolll6 =lei! thelrass c. ,, iLurrence o f hi s consc i ence . Y et t h at same N oble ..earned Lord had stated, On a Eoznser occasion, . . :chit the physie;ans were the bent able tore aft opie nano in these matters, and on the faith of their opt. roost gave their Lordships to understand that there was reason to expect his Majesty's early and speed/ . tocovery.—..(The Lord Chancellor here rote, and de• nied that he had ever used the words early or speedy _recovery). Lord Grey wished the Noble and Learned Laird would not interrupt him, but set him right when he had concluded his speech. That the Noble and Learned Lord h..d used the terms speedy recovery, he would again repeat ; and for the accuracy of the assertion, he would refer to the recollection of their Lordships. Must they not recollect that it was on the expectation of a speedy. recovery, that the Noble and Learned . Lord and colleagbes had prevail e d on the Hous e io adjouen for a fortnight ? He wished i the Noble and Learned Lord would now state to the llouse what new light it 11411 which had so broken in upon him, as.te induce him to depart from what he had so confidently stated on more than one occasion. But the Noble end Learned Lord now assures the House, that a mist material amendment has taken place in his Majesty's health. Upon what, authority does he make that statement ? Not from the opinion of the physicians, for which he has such little respect, but from the bias of his own mind and the dictates of his own conscience. Before, however, the House gives implicit belief to that assertion however agree able, should it prove true, they should have some !better authority than that of the Noble and Le:uned Lord. He, for one, must have some better audio., city fox thejact. He must be convinced of the King's', perfect and complete recovery. Nothing less should 1 satisfy that House. Their Lordships surely would not do their:day if they permitted the Royal Sceptre j to passim° other hands ; and during the moral inca pacity of the *Monarch, the Royal Functions to he exercised by Mieiaters in the name of the King.— , Nothing should deter him from watching a n d i nves -1 tigating the conduct of the Noble and Learned Lord; though he must say, GOD grant what he had now told the House respecting the King's amendment may prove true. The Noble Lord says that he will not invite, neither will he shrink from an investiga tion into his conduct. This was not saying very much. For if it be brought forward, how can the Noble and Learned Lord shrink from it ? that, how ever, he may have every opportunity fully to explain himself, and leave nothing ambiguous in the language in which the accusation is brought against him, he (L6rd Grey) would now openly inform the House, that in the years 1801 and 1504., that Noble and Learned Lord had used the King's name and perfdrnsed the Royal Functions, at a time when there is evidence that the King laboured under a disorder similar to the present, and when the Royal Authority was necessarily suspended. In 1801 a commission was tent to that House ; councils *ere held, at which his Majesty had presided ; a change had taken place in the Administration, an expedition was sent out of the country, and all this at a time when the King was afflicted as he is at pre sent. At that time, he, in another place, called on a Noble Viscount for an explanation of what was going on ; and the Noble and Learned Lord had been called upon in that House for a similar explanation. At first they declined giving any satisfactory answer,l and when called upon a second time, they declared, , that there was no suspension of the Royal A ut h or i t y. ` Yet it now appears, from the evidence of Dr. Heber den, that from the 12th day of February, to the 23d day of April, the King was not in a state to perform the Royal Functions—that notwithstanding a number of acts of the Royal Authority had been performed within that interval. On the 9:h of March a commis sion was signed, by which the Royal assent was given to several Bills I and on the sth of March the Chan cellor took the Royal pleas \ ure respecting some pur chase of land for his Royal Highness the Duke of York. Here then were the highest matters of State carried on at a time when it is mired his Majesty had not completely recovered, mid when he was not in full possession of his moral capacity. If an Attor ney had advised his client while in such a situation to make and sig , n a will, how would the N o ble an d Learned Loma have treated him when the case came ' before him in his Court of Chancery? And were these not serious violations of the Constitution ? and was im mediate and solid provision to he made against the re currence of such evils for the future ? Was it not now, moreover known, that on the 10th of June of the same year Dr.Symonds still attended his Majesty, and that cyen his assistants had the power of controul over the lang's person ? Will then their Lordships suffer the Lord Chancellor, or the Lord High Ste ward, or any set of Great Officers of State, thus to assume and exercise the Royal Authority, when it is proved that at the moment of such assumption anj exercise, the King was not in possession of his moral capacity? These abuses he was anxious to lay open to their Lordships as soon as possible, that those whom they may affect might vindicaite their conduct, and the House be warned to guard against such abuses for the future by solid and satisfactory provi sions. The'Noble Earl then took a short view of the arguments in favour of the restrictions, and asked, If you require the same duties from a Regent as from a King, why limit the one more than the other ? The same duties are imposed, but the same means are not allowed for the proper perfornetnce of them.— And under what circumstances is it that the Elect'. tire Power is to be so cripple 4? Is it not at a mome n t the with country is menaced with new difficulties and Idangers, and when its domestic union may be dis tilched ? Such a posture of things loudly called for the interposition of their Lordships, or the greatest evils might befal the country. The Amendment of his Noble Friend might in some degree tend to guard against them, 'old it should therefore have his most cordial support. The Earl of LIVERPOOL declared, that after the "satisfactory and unanswerable rpeech of his Noble I Friend on the cross bench (Lord•Sidmouth) he had I thought it would have been unnecessary for him to trouble the House on the present question ; hut what )tad just (align from the Noble Lord opposite render ed it indispensNe, with the view to his public duty, so itay; a few woras. The Noble Lord had accused his Noble - and Learned Friend on the. Woolsack of a galivant violation of his duty. He would tell that Noble Lord, and he would tell the House, that there was no one act done by his Noble and Learned Friend, at the period alluded to, for which he (Lord 14 aud all who were in the Cabinet with him at that . , • time, were not equally responsible. He had taincient l grounds for di st i nc tly d ec l ar i ng , t h at at t h at p er i od ' his Majesty was not allowed to execute a single net Of Royal Authority until a was fully unattained that he was competent to the discharge of the Regal functions I and he denied that any mystery had been made of his Majesty's indisposition, which was as well known to the public as to the Members of Go vernosent. The argument of the Noble Lord went to declare, that during the shortest possible period of indisposition on the part of his Majesty, it was fitting that his Ministers should come down to Parliament, and take irnmediate steps for the appointment ot' Regency. Was this the course that had usually been sanctioned by Parliament itself, when it adjourned, in complete knowledge of his Majesty's indisposition, but in the-hope that his speedy recovery might pre vent the necessity of supplying the deficiency of the Executive Authority ? Among other calumnies, the severe evil which his Majesty had sustained in the loss •f sight had been urged as a due cause for his abandon ment of the Regal powers. On this point, what were the opinions of - the Noble Lords opposite who were, in office when that evil occurred ? They knew the situation of his Majesty when they came into power, while they remained in power, and when they were dismissed from power. He would proceed to say a few words on the general subject of restriction on the Regent. The Noble Earl had asked, 44 Why not limit the power of the Regent also with respect to the army, the navy, &c.?" Because it could not be done with se curity to the country. As to the inconveniences of the proposed measure, that point had been so well argued by his Noble Friend on the cross bench, that he would not enter upon if. Adverting to the examinations of the Physicians, he contended that the term of a twelve month, proposed as' that of the restriction, was the most expedient. The Noble Earl had drawn a con trast between the respective situations of the country in 1788, and the present period. He was not afraid ' to meet him on that ground. Let the House look at the state of the navy—let them look at the state of the army—let them look at the state of the finances— let them look at the state of the revenue—let them look at the state of the commerce of the country in 1788, and at the present period, and the com-1 parison ,would refute the assertions of the noble Earl. He knew that by events, which no foresight could anticipate, a colossal power had arisen, which had monopolized nearly all the resources of Europe ; but at the same time that he knew what that power ; had done; and what it was capable of doing, he knew that Great Britain alone had been able, resolutely to defy that power, and to withstand its encroachments. He knew, that notwithstanding the assertions of the Noble Earl, Great Britain stood in a situation, so proudly eminent, that the heart of every man who ! was not an Englishman, must pant with desire to be one. Our security we owed to the energies of the people, exerted under the British Constitution, and directed by a Sovereign who had ever made their in terests his own. The Duke of KENT expressed his disaripubation of the restrictions in tote, but declared it to be his in tention to vote for the Amendment, on the ground that it would be a less evil to suspend the powers of the Regent for six mchuhs than for twelve. Lord SIDMOUTII, in explanation, declared in the face of the country, that there was not one act to which he was a party at the period which had been alluded to by the Noble Earl, which he was not ready to avow and defend. With respect to the year 1801, he must say, that he had heard a statement as to the health of his Majesty (after he came into office in March), which excited in his mind, in the minds of his Colleagues, and in the minds of other illustrious personages, who, were better acquainted with the cir cumstances of the case, the utmost surprise and asto nishment. On this subject he would not add a single word, but he 'contended that there was no act of Admi nistration of that day, which was not completely justi fiable. Adverting to the stress laid by the Noble Lord on the evidence of Dr. Heberden, as tending to shew that the state of his Majesty's health, from February to April, 1804, was unfavourable ; he observed that the examination of the Physicians, of whom Dr. He berden was one, given at the period itself, was cal- culated to make a different impression. In saying' ' this, he was far from insinuating any undue motive to Dr. Heberden, but such was the fact. The Ad ministration of that d iy Avas perfectly justified, and so it would appear whenever the subject should be I investigated. On the 26th of March his Majesty's, recovery had been affirmed by all the physicians in a Bulletin. A Council being to be held on the 9th of ; April, the Physicians on being questioned, had de clared that his Majesty was competent to preside at the Council, which however was not actually held till the 23d of that month. The Duke of GLOUCESTER felt it impossible to give a silent vote on the present occasion. He therefore declared that be should vote for the Amend ment. Lord MOIRA stated, that the Secretary had en deavoured to mislead their Lordships. He would wish to know whether, in attempting to follow the precedent of 1789, he (the Secretary) thought Mr. Pitt would have proceeded as he had done ? Seeing be had violated that precedent so far, did the No. ble Secretary mean to say that he had Mr. Pitt for his model ? Several most remarkable things had come from the Noble Lords on the opposite side, on the various subjects on which they have spoken. A Noble Lord (Liverpool) has said that he con ducted the country during his Majesty's illness, rather than afflict the country with news of his Ma jesty's illness. And the Lord Chancellor had made a most extravagant drawing of his conduct, when comparing his conduct in 1789, and his conduct now ; before he would do nought without their counsel, and now he won't &aide by aught they may state ; be will take his own counsel before any of. thetrs. The business of IW% though forming no real part of the present business, could not now be thrown from it, and consequently must go along with the di s cus s ion. Th e N o bl e L or d (Li ver pool) had stated, that he would not speak after the Noble Viscount, for he con.idered his argument as limns werable ; but those unanwerable arguments had been completely answered and overthrown. It had teen asked by a Noble Earl, whether any mischief could ensue from the suspension of the Royal Prerogatives, as proposed by the Bill, in the space of one year? His- chiefs might ensue; but approving such experiments was opening the doors for fur her experiments, on the ground that they might be wholesome and expedient. y • . .. • • .. . That, in his trnd,' Wel , rind nittlikitll 18 the ptiik sent measure. The Noble Lords num have heArd With mueb surprire the transcendantly favoutaisk. al ' count of the present state .71 the countty, es niettirrd' by the imagination of the Noble fiectetaft of Stitt* si, and many of those Noble Logs who had beard hilt' must have wished that they could have seconded all Ithat the Noble Earl urged. He need not einfipaell; the present state of the country with its situation lit: (the year 1783, for the comparison would not apply. • 'Then in profound peace with the world ; but how dil'. ferent was our present situation !-• As to the favoura= ble state of our .army and navy, it war not the organi. zation of our forces that *hewed our strength, and en sured security for the future ; but it was the general mass and energy of the people. (Ilm-, hear.) Should the unhappy hour ever arrive when our powerful and ambitions foe would be seen hovering on our shores, it would be found that the energy of the people would, i be our best, it not our only security. That was a truth which went home toevery man'sbosofn ; and it became them to stand by the Constitution—to oppose all , improper encroachments upon the Royal prernga tivesl for the purpose of protecting the people. The Noble Secretary of state had contrasted the relative situation of our Navy and Army at present, with its situation in a former period I but such statements were merely comparative. The state of France in 1760, and our state at that period, together with the situation of France at the present crisis, and our situation, ought to have been stated ; that would have been the true way of describing the real state of the country. They had been well told by a Royal Duke (Kent), t h is if they were compelled to choose between two evils, the better way would be to choose the less. He disapproved of all limita tions and restrictions on the Royal prerogatives to be exercised by the Regent ; and such being his opinion, it he were compelled to limit for any period 'he would select the shorter, and therefore the Amend ment he would have to support. The Prince of %Vales had not shewn any desire to obtain power for the pur pose of availing himself of the opportunity which would be thereby afforded him of making any im proper use of such power, and such being the fact, where was the necessity of restricting and limiting the Regent, even if the benefit of the people could suffer any of the prerogatives of the Crown to be sus pended for a single moment ? He was convinced that so much was his Royal Highness the Prince of Wales actuated by a due regard for his Royal but afflicted parent, that were all the prerogatives of the Crown rested in the Regent, in the event of his Ma jesty's recovery, his Lordship felt assured, that no ;et of the Prince's, so scrupulous and delicate would be his conduct, would meet with the disapprobation of the King. So unconstitutional did his Lordship h o ld all limitation of the Royal prerogatives, that he cer tainly should vote for that proposition which proposed the shorter period of limitation. The principle of the limitation met with his decided disapprobation.—. The Prerogatives of Royalty were allowed for the benefit of the people, and so necessary did be coa -1 Iceive them to be, that he could not willingly consent 'to the most limited suspension of them. From the examination of the physicians, his Lordship context.' Jed, that nothing certain was known, with respect to the recovery of his Majesty, 'whether or not it might be expected within a short period. With respect to that fact, the realization of which would be most cheering to every heart in the land, they were in' a complete state of uncertainty % Their Lordships were there to do their duty by the people as well as the King. They had to extinine such facts as were before them : they were to act upon the ! examination of the Physicians, and as such, they ought to narrowly watch every part of the evidence. I —His Lordship then took a review of the conduct of his Majesty's Ministers, previous to and on the 9th of March 1804, when the Lord Chancellor had applied the Great Seal to a Commission, as well as to the In strument ; and when, from the examination of the Physicians, it appeared that his Majesty was in a per. feet state of mind. Seeing what had been dose, he thought their Lordships would be cautious how they trusted the further Government of the country to those who had exercised it so loosely. He should vote for the amendment of Lord Grenville. The LORD CHANCELLOR spoke in support of the clause, as it originally stood. His Lordship thought that he ought not to have been selected from among his Majesty's Ministers, for the.purpose of being complained of, as he had been by two Noble Lords (Grey and Moira) in particular. Both in 1801 and . 1801,periods to which allusions had been made, he bad acted in concert with his colleagues. Having acte d with the other Ministers of his Majesty upon these oc casions, he did not think that he alone ought to be se lected from waving them. far the purpose of complain. ing of kis conduct upon those occasions. k haying been his highest ambition to hold the office which he had filled, he could not permit himself - 10 act in any other way than with a respectful obedience to the commands of his Sovereign. If there was any part of his conduct, during either of those periods, that was not what it ought to have been, he would beg the Noble Lords to distinctly point it out. The measures that were taken previous to, and on, the 9th of March, 1804, were determined on by his Majesty's Ministers, after repeated examinations of the Physi cians before the Privy Council. By virtue of his of; fice he had a most important duty to perform to Lis Sovereign ; and to perform that duty to the utmost of his power he had taken an oath. He was not to proceed to the dethroning of his Sovereign upsn the evidence of Physicians—he had a duty to perform to his Sovereign. It was not therefore to be su pp ose d that he had - acted without examining the Phystelans. He had not; he had had the concurrence of their exa- urination to jtv,tify his conduct. Nee did he trust to their report, for he had deemed it fit to have personal communication with his Majesty. Those communica tions with his Majesty were completely unrestrained. for when his Lordship was with his Majesty, those persons were absent who had been in the habit of attending him, in order that there might be no re straint. In pursuance of such examination before the Council, and of such communication with his Ma jesty, his Lordship had felt himself justified in apply ing the Great Seal, as he - did on the 9th of Marc',...-. So excellently well was his Majesty at that period, that his Lordship could not but observe, that his Majesty was better aware of the duty that he (the Lord Chancellor) had to perform, than even he was himself. From the conduct of his Lordship upon that occasion, his Majesty continued on the throne