Star. — London, England, 1819-02-26 00:00:00

of attach rart whnin 1. o , e iee,ing farnilY• Ms., coon wa et to a?; nap w e office w °. 5 I(Add • Orr nig! . • ; di be gra ld be mai - j at was the ; :ed, and tic g l ue called ,A and situ considere airy, this •: , -tina from v, bear!) lc:citing t he I i t g reed to. !.!f. GORE ;tour of the &ides of t gr. WILLI the Nur! K ist of mon( greased, he ts i he was st w:ilbe an I But 01%:leis of / vote ; f r ,.. , : tive of th v:., disgustin: f:,:ltoyal Est s o much ler c eiboted throu plower the f.? thought Si 14. i. but ti gbca the late 6s sum to th ices, that o man more Usaght it net • this sum. must be toc the circun P.oo(g. too ri lie thou M would the The SPEA it mean to r Mr. WILL ducnce in tl ire ,at any ti end it, he sf. cm be 5,000 This Amen 91tt it put fi Mr. LONG !silty of a g pa violatio. motion, tirei,ions w House frc ir?er—(Hen w taken of r who had ants of the led by a jui trught4en tl defray the conceivedii ::wards the I Di sum whi rioted. Hi Eat the sum de Duke of the office of c Lord EBB rissible to ac had been so m he was ai coiceived ert made of more desirou on the part o had voted fo dte:eby precl Ministers has say in whirl ze the H Yard on the tie oS:.e of taracter, ai maintaiat tit a fit pre; ( -Ple oa whi, qose the .4 Me. S. C( use d ragge 411011 . Thi caeil, and 1 te least sun Me.D. to of t h e 1411 leedless tat satisfied try of £lO *whitely that *whitely r rant it th 11 Pon to san tie Once? Ass of %hal lustre Sole Gent 'Acti on b et it. That la ei the obis 110 7ni Higl ltourable the liou se 'kume.l h ) f t his fili a l lturinus t. %ildated • of post-hir, /owin g t * Could ni 4 1enr, wa 2e.:( 1 ; meet to the House of Hanover, hi-opposing the ](honks of Admiralty—(some siturie o 4. 'hr isfts 41,, if it were agreed ,to, would weaken of 10,0001. a-year could not, therefore, add to his fie li„ gs which attach the. people to the Royal dignity or splendour. It was degradingi and dero gatory in the character of the office, as the King's son, to accept such a remuneration for performing what wet his duty to his father and Sovereign. Ft was degrading, and 'lamentably disgusting, to 'see such an account lying upon every table throughout the country.--lying on the table of every publican, of every kitchen, and canvassed and criticised by the eyes of all descriptions of people, from the highest to the lowest, The Establishment at Windsor had been amply provided for, without this additional munifi cence of , Parliament—(Hear, hear, and coughs from Me opposite side). The Honourable Member said, that were he not satisfied that he had in some degree already discharged his duty, he would not be fearful to encounter the reproaches of some Gentlemen, tint would construe their meaning of coughs into cheers! Mr. C. W. WYNNE thought it improper to mix up the services of his Royal Highness in the manner which the last Honourable Gentleman had chosen. It was not conformable to the taste or judgment which these proceedings demanded. He offered this remark without any invidious comparison, or any in tention of giving the smallest offence to the Honour able Member. With regard to his Royal Highness's emoluments, as Commander-in-Chief he (Mr. Wynne) was of opinion that the House had nothing to do with that branch of his income. No man had ever filled an office with greater honour to himself br greater advantage to the country.. If his Royal Highness was invested with the very important office of the Custos, there would certainly be some addi tional trouble imposed upon him ; but although he (Mr. Wynne) would not condemn the proposed sa lary in tot o, yet the Ministers were to blame for ex ,posing his Royal Highness so any chance of public odium on the occasion. The office could not surely require an expenditure to the amount proposed. It was within the recollection of Gentlemen that the Queen had acted as Custos one year without any sa lary. But when in the course of nature the bodily infirmities of her Majesty had increased, it was found expedient, with the additional duties she had to per tbrm, to assign her a salary. Her Majesty was not required to reside constantly at Windsor.— By her absence from that place, Ate was deprived of the advantage of the King s household establishment. The salary was therefore granted to defray the ex penses of her residence at Weymouth or Bath, or to whatever other places her Majesty's medical advisers recommended her. The Honourable Gentleman had no particular objection to the stein, if thought neces sary; but let the House vote it not ai a salary, for the vote in any other shape would be less exception able. It would have been wiser on the part of Mi nisters to have proposed at once an aggregate sum, rather than to have excited a serious difference, by calling upon them to vote it as a salary. Had this been an aggregate sum, or had the sum been ex pressed as a gift, many objections would hare been obviated. For the expenses which-might be incurred by the office, the Duke ought to have compensation. Gentlemen should bear in their mind, that it was not a private case. Besides the duties of a son to a fa ther, his Royal Highness had the public duty of Custos; and it ought to be recollected' that his Royal Highness was not permitted to discharge those duties as a person in an inferiorstation or in a private family. Mr. BATHURST wished to impress upon the minds of Gentlemen, that the Royal Duke, in situation of Custos, became an Officer of the Public, and therefore deserved remuneration for his services. His Royal Highness had not solicited this additional public duty ; it was imposed upon him by an Act of Parliament. The question was a question of money— how much might be saved by a refusal of the pro ' posed grant ? The sum of £lO,OOO was proposed on the one side of the House, and £5OOO on the other. For his part, he would support the former sum. If his Royal Highness deserved any salary or compen sation, the sum i of £IO,OOO was not too much. It had been proposed by an Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Wynne) that the sum should be voted as an aggregate. With all due deference to that Honour able Gentleman, he was of a different opinion. If some Gentlemen felt a delicacy for the irksome situ ation of his Royal Highness, that situation was attri butable to the opposition made to the proposed grant. Lord CARHAMPTON rose with great reluctance to give his opposition to any grant for any part of the Royal Family, particularly one proposed for the Duke of York. But with all his respect and attach ment to the Royal Duke, he considered that he had a duty to perform as a Member of Parliament; and as a Member of Parliament freely exercising his pri vilege, he could not help saying, that the vote pro posed was an unprincipled, an unfeeling, and an au dacious attempt to degrade his Royal Highness in the eyes of the people. Ministers deserved the se verest censure for the public odium in which they in volved his Royal Highness. The Noble Lord thought' it incumbent upon him to resist, with his utmost power and ability, the motion. He would never con sent that the sum of £lO,OOO shoidd be wrung from an oppres s ed people, to gratify the rapacity of those who formed the present administration. His Majes ty's present servants had no other object in view by the proposition now submitted to the House but to court and cajole the Royal Family` at the expense of character and honour, But the people ought to be undeceived. They ought to learn, that the sum of ten thousand pounds had not been de manded by his Royal Highness, but had been forced upon him, in order to render his Royal Highness in some way very subservient to the wishes of Ministers.' It became the latter, therefore, to use their bast en deavours to gain the present object of discussion; the consequence was of the most serious description to Ministers. His Lordship was convinced, that if they did not succeed. that evening, "out they must go F It was therefore necessary so marshal all their forces in order to keep their places. But should they be unfortunate enough not si carry their point...-which' Lordship thought they would this evening, al; though not by a great znajority—is Avoteld become them, by paying court to his Royal sHighabsa rid the other branches of the Royal conciliate their partiality by tins. morasses "They are contriving, if °Wry . a train for their easy vesikia bitter invective, churged Ministers,alerms dium of this, obtspaious proposition, - to commit. " a legal robbery r 4 P if they carry the. question this 'OOPEIt said, the duty now imposed upon ova ; not to lay new burd4ns on the people, impriate to sums on the. Civil List. If the were continued, he could not see.why the be diminished. He understood the vote Hit to have been, not whether any sum Tamed, but, admitting that some grant In ade, out of what fund it should be taken. lac simation of our Monarch ?---aged, af destitatel—and, In this situation, was the !d upon to stint the comforts becoming his lunation ?—(Hear, hear, !ear!) When it iered that he had reigned more than half a ,is vote was to be consiSered as a tribute of from a loyal and grateful people—Wear, Adverting to the notice of a Motion for le two Equerries, he trusted that it would )I{DON expressed his opinion strongly in the vote, on account of the importance of' of the office. ;MI MS (a new Member) could not agree course pursued on this occasion. If by any money the comforts of out }Ting could be he would be the last man to oppose it ; sure throughout the whole nation there an unanimous disposition that it should be it as it was plain that the comfort and sf his Majesty were in no way concern e 4 he could not agree to it. lie could not the Report of the Select Committee. ,It ..ig to see all the items of the expenses of Establishment:—so much for the kitchen— nr clothes—and all this published and dis 'rough the country. This could only tend ;he Royal Family in the public estimation. • some sum ought to be voted on this oc that 10,0001. was too much. In 1812, tte M.r. Perceval first proposed the vote of the Queen to meet the expenses of the' great Statesman, than whom there was lore attached to his king and Country, had necessary to apologize for the magnitude lithe sum was too great for the Queen, coo great for the Duke of York. Looking cumstances of the country, he thought Loo =eh; bet considering the duties of the thought to give nothing would be uujust. therefore propose that the sum be 5;0001. 'EAKEII—. , Does the Honourable Mem o move an Amendment ?" ,LIAAMS felt himself so totally without the House, that he should hardly yen motiop ; but, if any Member would se . should move * an Amendment, that the MOO'. instead of 10,0001. iendment was seconded, and the question t from the Chair. ,ONG WELLESLEY thought he should be gross dereliction of public duty,, and a ~cation of public honour, if he could agree motion. He would not be deterred by any which might be used from any part of from taking that part which he thought Hear, hear.) He agreed very much in the . of this subject by the Honourable Mem had just sat down—and that the'arrange the Windsor Establishment were net regu ust regard to a principle of economy: He ,ten thousand pounds too much to be granted the expenses of the office of castor persona. ived the feelings of the country to be such the Duke of York and the Royal Family that which was necessary would be cheerfully He certainly had a sort of latent feeling tm of £lO,OOO was not now proposed for of York solely to defray the expenses of of mew. lIRINGTON said, though he felt it im add any thing to the arguments which so 'ably urged against the present motion, anxious to enter his protest against what 'et: to be one of the most wanton demands on the liberality of the House. He was the , ous of doing so from its having been urged t of his Majesty's Ministers, that those who for the Amendment the other night, were . eclutled from voting against this.motion.— had much to answer for, on account of the itch they had dragged the Duke of Yotk House on this occasion. Those who ar he other side of the I louse contended, that of Custos was one of a high constitutional and ought therefore to be expensive. But iced that the sum allowed to the-Queen was irezedent for this case. On the same prin. hich he opposed the Motion he should also Amendment. COCKS thought there was no fccasion to 'Red forward the Duke of York on•this oc- fhe office was the only thing to be consi id looking at its duties he thought 1:10,000 ;um that could be granted. •W. HARVEY, considering the distressed the country, could not consent to a wanton 'less expenditure of the public money. If he ied that the office of Castes required the sa :10,000 a-year on the part of the Duke of ;at is, that it made the additional expense ly necessary, no man would more cheerfully than himself. For what were they called auction such a grant ? To give dignity to !? No. The House never intended that the 4110,000 should be expended to give' addi tustre to his Royal Highness the Duke of York. - ;entlemen had recommended to make a dis between the office and the person who held he thought impossible. In the occupancy itiioe, we could never forget that his Royal is was invested with that office, and That his lighness was the son of the King. The Ho : Member wiJied that Ministers had favoured ise with an estimate of the suppos23 expenses by the Duke of York for the extra exercisi l duty. If they had ventured• upon such calculation, the items would be found coal into one general sum. •namely, the expense .hire floor London to Windsor—(fleur.)l rag the various offices of his Royal Highness, not forget that the Duke, beside. his 18,0001. Conimnider-in-Chief, and all its mole it'-'4! Co received a considerable portion of will be able to prevail en the Ihkitt of York to aetept the salary, after the obloquy which has accompanied its discussion in Parliament ! No! Nod they cannot persuade ,his Royal Highness to debase himself by truckling thus to Ministerial despotism ! His Royal Highness has now en opportunity of immortalizing himself by the refusal of a grant which has created such a difference of opinion both within and without the• walls of that House, In imitation of the Da, of Richelieu, who refused a pension, his Royal High isess will reject the odious salary !—(Hear, hear.)-- 'The sum cf £lO,OOOl For what? For riding from 'London to Windsor, or from. Oatlands to Windsor! The Duke will not stoop to accept-a salary for such a sacrifice of character. No, No ! our Royal, Duke will never be outdone by a Frenchman ! His Lord• ship implored the House to resist the motion for a salary in whatever shape it should appear. If once ranted to the Custos—if once in the Red Book—the public- would never get rid of it. Were a demise to take place, which they all most sincerely depre cated, how :would you get rid of the Custos? You could not have the heart to deprive his Royal High ness of his 10,000/. a-year as Custos. No! No ! Let it once appear in the Red Book, and it mould bid de fiance to every species of'popular clamour. There it will remain, and be transmitted to posterity. His Lordship remembered a Ministerial expedient to aug ment their influence. It was the appointment of three Commissioners for the Lottery in Ireland, even at a time when there was no lottery ! • Well—one died. Was the place suppressed, and thus a saving made to the public ? No. Another was appointed to the awe sinecure —because, if you have no Lottery now in Ireland, the lime may come when you will, and ,thus this additicnal Commissioner will be requisite. And so we may conclude, that if now we have a Custos with a salary, there will always be a Custos— because although the time may be when no Custos li requisite, yet the time ray come when the func tions of a Custos will be wanted ! Let us once have Custos with a salary of 10,0001. a-year, and we shall alays have one attached to the Royal Esta blishment ;—(Hear, hear).—His Lordship bestowed the warmest encomiums on the Duke of York, to whom the country, particularly the army, was infi nitely indebted. His Royal Highness was every sol dier's friend, and he had the happiness of being be loved by every soldier. He admired his Royal High ness as Commander-in-Chief--but making use of his privilege as a Member of the House, his Lordship did not wish to see him in the additional character now proposed ; he thought the office incompatible with that of Commander-in-Chief —or, to use a vul gar phrase, he wished, as an Officer in the army, to be always confined to " his shopr Mr. HART believed the question was, whether the salary ought to be taken from a distressed and an impoverished people, or some mode adopted to save his Royal Highness from the disgrace accom panying the grant ? Mr. GRIFFITHS, referring to the representation of the prosperqps state of the country, as flatteringly drawn by a Noble Lord (Castlereagh), begged leave to differ from him. • In the view which presented it self to him (Mr. Griffiths), the picture sbai far short of what the Noble Lord had so alluringly g iven—for even when he looked through the most favourable magnifying glass, it appeared a mere daub, greatly disfigured by false colouring !—(Hear, hear.)—The pressure of the times was in the utmost degree dis tressing ; therefore no £lO,OOO a year ought to be granted for the administration of an office which re quired little or no exertion. He would ask the ,Noble Lord (Castlereagh) where he could find any solid proofs of our prosperity ? Was it from our Custom House books? That medium was not always correct as to our internal prosperity. There had lately been many serious and alarming failures. These misfor tunas were no testimonies of our internal prosperity. In Ainsworth, near Bolton, Lancashire, more than half a dozen large and respectable houses, suffering . from the pressure of the times, had stopped, and their failure had deprived more than 4000 persons of employment. This was no proof of the truth of the flattering description of prosperity as presented by the Noble Lord I The Honourable Member was hostile to any'grant of monies to the Duke of York. The Public ought not to pay him for doing his duty by looking after his father ! Colonel ELLISON was not afraid that the office and salary would be converted into a perpetuity. He did not mean by this observation to indicate any Royal demise. " I hope in GOD that the King will not die !" There was not a man in England that wished such a lamentable event. The £lO,OOO a year was but a fair and proper compensation to bjs Royal Highness for the discharge of his additional duty as a servant of the Public. Colonel FREEMANTLE considered the question as a continuance of the allowance made to the Queen. So fax was there from being, as had been represented, an addition to the public burthens, there had, on the contrary, been a saving of X 50,000 a-year in the Windsor Establishment. No man was a greater friend to economy than himself, but, on the present occasion, he looked to the dignity of the situation in questio4 and to the importance of its daiies, and thought that if they at the same time considered what was due to the public, a smaller sum could not be granted than the sum which had originally been proposed. They had been told of the distresses of the country ; but were they so far red aced as to be unable to grant the sum of g 10,000? They had been told that a cotton manufacturer had failed (Hear, hear I) but was it to be wondered at, that, in so great a commercial coun try, a single failure should have• taken place?— (Hear, hear ! from the Ministerial Benches.) But on the other hand, they should look to the advantages which had been gained (Hear, hear!) He thought that the question cosild be taken only on the sum ori ginally imposed, and that if they did not grant that, se would be betteo to grant nothing. If he was to judge of the feelings of the people, he firmly believed that they would be favourable to the sum originally =sad. ha the whole of the discussions on Mr. cal% Bill, that.wliith was least objected to was the grant. tb *Queen ;" and he felt confident, that watch on the question, which he conceived to lie in a narrow compass. He wished principally to answer .the'objections which had been -raised on the ground of his arguments the other evening ; but betoredOiqg so, he ahould call the attention of the House to the ress of the Bill. A.Bil/ had been passed in the use orlfaerds ' by which his Royal Highness the h' Of York had been aminted Custos, without any,provision" of remnneration for the discharge of its duties. If he understood him correctly, the NO , ble , Lord (Castlereagh) had on a formig evening ed to the House, that his Royal Hi g hne ss t h e eke . Alf York did not make application for any so ry, but objected to it as coming from the Privy -Purse. The Noble Lord had said, that it was only necessary to state the nature of the office to be of a • public kind, and that thelefore it should be attended with a public salary. But the contrary was true, for the o ffi ce was without a saTary, as it was stated that the sum to be given was in censequence of certain expenses attendant on the office. However, an at tempt was now made to give the 130,000 salary for the discharge of the office. Although it was unplea sant, as had been often said, to estimate the expenses requisite for a specific object by pounds, shillings, and pence, yet, for his part, he could see no other way of doing so with correctness. The situation re quired nothing more than to attend twice a week at Windsor. A thousand or Stems hundred pounds a-year would be more than sufEcient to meet the ex penses of travelling to and from Windsor so often, taking into account the high charge for post-horses. Was it too much for. him then to pause before he would agree to grant £10,000? There was some reason to believe that it was demanded• under false pretences. Something, he shrewdly suspected, ex isted in the back ground, of which they knew no thing. Let Ministers speak out. If his Royal High ness really wanted this sum, they should say so openly; but he, for one, would not consent to grant it without knowing for what. Much was said about the acts of liberality his Royal Highness would be. called upon to perform, on the part of his Majesty, in his situation of custo.i, He knew of no acts of li berality that would become incumbent on him in that capacity, more than those which his known ge nerosity of disposition led him to perform before. Would he be reqiiired to pay more on the score of liberality than was usually paid before out of the Royal purse ? They should consider what the nature of the office was. It was, as every person knew, held by her Majesty previously to her. death. It was re presented to be a most important public office. If such was the case, the country, for some months, was very hardly dealt with, because, in point of fact, since June last there was no custos capable of dis charging the duties of the place ; her Majesty, from that time to her death being preventeciby illness, and there was no curios at all since November.—(Hear.) How could Ministers account for this ? They must feel rather awkwardly during that time. The death of her Majesty was foreseen long before the event occurred. The town was kept for some months, in agitation expecting to hear of it every day. Why was not Parliament, in the interval, called upon to appoint some person Ito this important duty ? The balance Ministers had to strike was between the two questions, whether his Majesty was to be without a Custos, or the country without a Parliament, and they chose the latter. The situation of Custos was called a /subtle office, and one of great responsibility. He would deny both... Her Majesty held no public office, and could not hold one of responsibility— (Hear, from the Opposition.) Was the Queen Con sort capable of filling a public office? •If they said s'o, would it be asserted that she was responsible? It could not be asserted, the office was not a responsi ble one. It was delegated by Parliament to her Majesty for the gaardianship dtho ; King. Govern ment provided expressly that die Cusths should not be responsible, for they gave him a Council who were to be accountable for whatever was done. The next thing to be considered was the extent of the duties attached to the situation. The Custos had a Groom of the Stole with 2,0001. a-year for superintending the whole Establishment, who was obliged to be resident at Windsor. This Officer had a Deputy equally ca pable with himself of managing the whole concern, and of course matters were conducted without any trouble to the•Custos. What then had he to do ? Nothing but to take care that the Physicians attended to their important trust, and if his Majesty should recover, to communicate the event to the public, to see that it should not be concealed. He must deny that the performance of these duties required such a sum as 10,0001. He did not know how often the Custos might have occasion to go to Windsor, or how long it might be necessary for him to continue there, but at all events the demand appeared exorbi tant. There were two amiable branches of the Royal Family, whose filial attention could not be sufficiently praised, that resided constantly there without any re muneration but the consciousness of performing a duty. With respect to the eustos he was not aware of any great labour that could fall upon him. He was not to be constantly in the presence of his Majesty for the purpose of watching, over him, or attending to his wants. All he had to do was to receive the Re port of the Physicians, ass isted by the Conned.— This was the case before, and there was no duty since added to the office. The Reports of Physicians were made tp the Council, and these ended the whole bu siness. This might as well be done without as with a eustos, but he would not deny, at the same time, the propriety of there being such an officer. Was it however seemly or decorous, that for the perform ance of the duties, a sam of £lO,OOO should be re quired? • Whether the office was measured by labour or responsibfity, it was riot worth £10;000 a-year.— Ministers did not attempt to demand this suns upon 'either ground. They could not dp it..-and, for that reason they came forward under *a sneaking pretext of enabling his Royal. Highness to defray some un defined expenses incidentil, as tfley pretended, to the situation. The Council received no salary—the GrOoms who were dismissed begged to be retained, and offered to 'perform their duties without salary, merely from affection for the Royal person to wham Trustees al we ral F 174 .4ni l Li n c aug il:t 1 ; wa P m arl w ianlrt ft c wst ' ` an° red• ge l Icl ar l d ` no ug a n s i ------ u' of " th " Wifte ' re - d - eZied: -- The T7us - tee j s " a . 117: no salary, trains . principles... l f *lib situation - , she, would not objeceth the grainpro- Was then his Royal Highness, the favourite son of - irdan : seislicon_cr slip . pawed at . preiren If hit wp:called upon . to expla ip' his Majesty , a ivais. he, . as curtsy, the only p erson " HIWIAT43IIIIVVIIi • CO hi s censtsuerits, there was .no question wo not act without a salicry ?•--(hear;,. Ireerl , nisters,,through which ha:would:be snore willing to do so than Th is 'gyrated a strange piece of business. Il shoafd Diatice,.with an= dy ofitbe present grant and he , said thir in bireilied Us the bottom: Was it..a situation in. which • r But Fds north , • Oahe ifew Paling:sent. ' his-Itoyal Highness' ought to be placed ? . Sending Isituighti that • • Mk. TIERNEY said, that he wished to Say a few int* AMC 'kW; as it Were, a Bill for contingent .• ••- -• • • • . . I I it . #l. , y , i -,..', ~ i i „. 1 1 ' 1 1 1 ,1 : i ' : t '~ ' a i~ !f ';' 1' 1