Star. — London, England, 1811-05-10 00:00:00

_.• &II had already been made to the Privy Council on the subject, and the present applicants appeared to him the most out of favour in the whole field. The object of the present application was to upset that de termination, and obtain a perpetual patent, as an eternal disgrace to the judgment which refused them a limited one. But the Bill was called the New Lon don Theatre Bill. He did not mean to say any thing disrespectful to the parties concerned ; but if they did come to Parliament they should not come in mas querade. They never had an idea of building it in the City, for they knew they would not be permitted. If it did not transgress the orders of the House too much, he would ask a worthy Alderman whether that vias the ease or not ? Sir JAMES SHAW said the Corporation of the City of London disclaimed giving any countenance to a Theatre in the City. Mr. SHERIDAN said, this was a strong ground for agreeing to the motion before the House ; and he was sure, that if ever the City should be inclined to have a Theatre, compensation would be made to those with whose interests he must interfere. Even the 80. rotths in Ireland were not taken away without com pensation by the hand of iron justice He concluded with returning thanks for the kindness he had expe rienced, and referred the House for an opinion of the case to his Hon. Friend on his right hand ( Mr.Whit bread), whose character was a stamp and guarantee that he would not lend himself to any unworthy purpose. After a few observations from Mr. DENT, Mr. G. JoawsroNE, and General Pimps, Mr. MELLISH said he must press the question, as it was for the interest of others he was acting. The House then divided, when there appeared—. For the Amendment 80—Against it 23—Majority for the Amendment 51. DISTILLERIES. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (adverting to the Report of the Committee appointed to search the Lords' Journals on the Bill relating to Distilleries) intimated the necessity of introducing another Bill, to amend the 48th of the King. and em power the Lords of the Treasury to relieve certain persons distilling from Sugar. He did nut mean to bring in any Bill to-day ; yet he had no objection to stating that he intended a temporary suspension to wards Ireland, the intercourse between England and that country being brought directly under considera tion.—Sir JOHN NEWPORT expressed his appro bation of such temporary suspension. stn. LUCIN'S CASE. . Sir THOMAS TURTON presented the Petition of Mr. Lucin, with the proper signature affixed. Mr. R. WARD said, he had examined Mr. Lu. cin's case with the most scrupulous nicety, and he had not discovered any intention to defraud the Admiial ty; but he had found assured culpability or neglect. of duty. Earl St. Vincent had visited the different docks of the kingdom, in 1802, and in Sheerness Dock-yard, among other circumstances of fraud, he found there had been false musters made ; and the clerk who was responsible for a superintendance of those musters was Mr. Lucin. He did not conceive there was any participation in that fraud by the clerk, but he assuredly considered him as grossly forgetful of his duty. And the reason why the different Lords of the Court of Admiralty refused to hear his cause was, that they had the letter of Mr. Lucin on their books, acknowledging his error ; and, certainly, the Admiralty could not reinstate a man who had con. fessed himself as neglectful of duty. ._ Sir THOMAS TURTON replied that Mr. Jaucin offered to clear himself of the imputation laid to his charge, were he only allowed to be heard in his own defence. He hoped that Parliament would not cast a man who had served the country for thirty years loose on the world, with a family, without friends, and without subsistence. The trespass was one to which mercy and forgiveness could be easily extend ed, allowing him to have trespassed, without any de triment to the country. Mr. Lucin had a most re spectable character, and therefore be would call on the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ward) to prove the charges he had alledged'against him. Mr. CROKER replied, that Mr. Lucin was fur nished before his dismissal with a copy of the charges preferred against bim, that he might prepare himself to defend his conduct ; but Mr. Lucin threw himself entirely on the mercy of the Court, acknowledging his neglect of duty. So far from the gentlemaree case being neglected by the succeeding Courts of Admiralty, they had found his confessions of uilt J r on their books recorded by their predecessors in and therefore forbore to consider his case at all, an " disregarded his petition. The petition was ordered to lie on the table. IRISH MILITIA. Mr. W. POLE brought forward the Bill for ex tending the services of the Irish Militia, which was read a first time, ordered to be printed, and read a Monday . , second time on Lcinday- Mr. W. PC.L.,E moved for leave to bring itu'a 13i It, to amend and regulate the Standing Law -of •Fram sii;n for the Wives and Families of Irish Militia:a-1 £74,000 were allowed by Act annually for theit ditb-1 sistence, and he was conscious that much of that! money was emighzled ; and therefore the Bill which he proposed was to prevent those frauds froni being committed again. It was also the intention of the, Bill to give those allowances to the wives and families of ballotted men, withdrawing it from those who went as substitutes. He did not mean to take it from those already enlisted, but to prevent it in fu ture. Such was the aim of his motion, and he trust-. ed there would be much amendment in the frequent frauds of family money, and also considerable saving to the revenue of Ireland. Sir JOHN NEWPORT considered that the fa milies of soldiers of the line had an equal right to such provision as the families of the militia. He trusted the House would consider the hardships which alone belonged to Ireland. lie perfectly agreed with the proposition of the Honourable Gentleman. Sir W. POLE replied, the Bill would make fia substitutes the same as recruits of the line, which was the wish of the Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Newport.) Leave was then given to bring in a Bill agreeable to the propositions. MILLION REPORT.- Mr. GRENFELL took notice of an observation of a Noble Lord (Castlereagh), on the preceding night, in which he had charged the Bullion Commit tee with changing . their opinion. For his part, he en itttalned the.sams opinion now dig be did last Sag- longer be answered. He would n. ----- . should immediately retrace our steps, but that we That giddy theorist also gave an instance of the na should retrace them as soon as possible. The ascent tural effect of a . non-convertible paper, in the case of ,should be as gradual as the descent was rapid. The the Dumfries Bank. The Directors inserted an op first step he thought which ought to be taken was, , tional clause in their notes, of putting off payment for ,ns to reduce the number of country notes—but he would six months; and though the legal interest was to be _c onfess that he had not been able to lea any feasible I allowed during the six months, the bills on London method of doing. so : but his inquiries were not tiler:- ! were at a discount of 4 per cent. while those of Car. fore checked. It bad been laid down as a maxim by lisle, only a few miles off, having no optional clause,. an Honourable Gentleman, that the Legislature were were at par. Since the commencement of the debate -bad judges of mercantile affairs, that therefore we no settled opinion had been given on the standard of 'should net meddle with banks or bankers; but this payments ; but it had uniformly, and in all civilized doctrifte would afford, if received, influences very countries, a reference to the precious metals. There 'hostile to the existence of a legislative body. Our re• was, however, one standard which he thought more trOgression he was sensible must beattendedwith great determinate, and that was the price of bread. On difficulties, and greater in a time of war than of peace ' au average of fourteen years before the restriction, Viear, hear, from the lifinisterial side of the Haute), but the price of the quartern loaf was 70. On an are it was neither impossible nor inexpedient. As to the rage of the fourteen years succeeding, the price t charge brought against the Bullion Committee, of wds 12.0. This was demonstration of the low haviag foregone their original opinions, he must main- ered value of the currency. If he was asked for the taro the reverse, at least with respect to himself ; and remedy of all this, he confessed he could offer none he did not think the accusation just as to the body. • that satisfied himself : the disease appeared irrerne- , i The further charge of the Committee having made a diahle. He could not save the patient, dying of a trash experiment on the currency of the country, he mortal disease. All the present pressure was the thought was as absurd as if a physician were blamed natural result of the funding system. But if he could for warning his patient of danger, while yet a change not have remedy, he could have revenge. The ere of regimen might save his lite. He entertained san- ditor of the public, the annuitant, was not to be de. guise hopes that so much light would he thrown on frauded. The Bank Directors had profited by the' the subject before the next Session of Parliament, as system, and they were the only persons who had pro would lead to measures cautious and moderate, but fited. The Directors of the South-sea Company at the same time decisive—such as would place the were made liable.in their estates to the demands of resources of the country on a firm basis, , which he the creditors ; why *bead not the Bank Directors, was sorry to say they did not at . present rest on. - .- -. • - . , sions ; end frem the best consideration he cottl4 give 1 Mr. LONG observed, that ha*ring been a member att lignite the sabiect, as a practical niati - ,**ouid support the of the Bullion Committee, and differing both from I Resolutions of his Honourable Friend (Mr. Horner.) the Report and Resolutions adopted by them, he felt ' net refrain Mr. W. TAYLOR endeavoured to refute some of anxious to state the grounds of that difference. His I every respect for the assertions of Mr. Horner; and considered the principal objection to the Resolutions arose from the , general, had at properest mode of calculation was, to measure our conviction on his mind, that however a pp licable the' eiccessful coin own circumstances by those of other countries. The system there recommended might be to ordinary 1 in their sys- Revolutions of kingdoms, and the changes of system, times, it was by no means practicable in the present ' , that °pillion, afforded their examples by which men might profit state of the country. He had also to remark, that in ;loci from the were they to bring them to the assistance on the ques- the whole course of his experience he had never seen a some seated tion before the Committee.—lf we had two eurren- Report presented to the House which in substance and otherwise it cies of unequal value, that which was of least must effect was so little supported by the testimonyof the wit- " the country . necessarily disappear. If we would only consent to nesses examined, in order to ascertain the real state of with confi throw aside the jargon in which the subject had been the fact. With respect to the remedy proposed, he' him similar enveloped, we might expect to arrive at some conclu- thought if it were adopted it would only be attended to a man who . ss when in good sion, whereas now it appeared to him, that the longer with difficulty, and expose the Resolutions of the health, who acts in full confidence, and dies in a fit of the dispute continued, the denser the mist grew, and House to ridicule, from the impossibility there exist- apoplexy. ( Hear, hear.) He did no omean to im the less chance there was of our obtaining a distinct ed of carrying it into execution. It seemed generally , peach the personal character of the Directors ; but perception. to be urged by Gentlemen on the oposite side of he wished to see an alteration in their system, and Mr. DAVIS GIDDY wished that some data could the House, that if this measure was not adopted, 1 the Bank pay in specie. be had upon which a superstructure of argument the most dreadful consequences would ensue. He 1 Mr. ROSE corrected severel of his arguments used might be raised ; but it was useless to reason where recollected that the very same predictions had been on a former night, which hid been misconstrued. every principle was at variance. However he might made when the Restriction Act was fir s t passed ,•I Mr. S. THORNTON fe:t amazed to lieerken to be accused of indulging in theory, he would venture the most melancholy forebodings were then uttered those opinions which had been brought forward in the to assume one principle from which some conclusion from all parts of the House, and even Mr. Fox, that ; .Resolutions. He defended the Beek restrictions, but might be deduced—namely, that the state of our ex- great and enlightened Statesman, had declared, that ; affirmed the Bank could withdraw every Promieory changes depended on demand and supply, money fol- he entertained a thorough conviction that if the Bank note which they had in circulation in the course of lowing in most respects the nature of all othcrcom- Restriction Act lasted six or eight months, inevitable two fears. He attacked the statements of several modities. An Hon. Gentleman wko had spoken on a ruin would be the consequence to the country ; and ,of the Honourable Members on the inferences which former night with great ability, and who had written yet, after a period of twelve years had elapsed, dur- they had drawn from the quantity of specie abroad , a work of great merit on the subject now under dis- tog which the Act remained unaltered, the public and particularly in Pails, where they possessed no cussion, maintained that the precious metals had ob- credit maintained its pristine respectability. (Hear, bank notes. The reason he contended .was there in tamed the preference to be used as money over all hear.) The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to take those countries where they had only metallic cerren other commodities, not in consequence of the tacit and , a general view of the question, in the course oievhich cy, they possessed too little credit to support one ( f universal consent of mankind, but because they had be displayed his wonted ability, and concluded by , paper. He desired the Committee to look at their qualities inherent in them which rendered them pecil- \declaring his opinion, that however desirable it might prosperity, their harbours bustling to supply the world liarly fitted for the purpose. In almost every other Ibe to have the metallic circulation restored, yet that with merchandize, and their canals filled with trace particular he coincided with him in opinion ; but from . the paper currency for the present was so far from from the inlands, the coast allowing too 1 ttle room this position he must express his unqualified dissent ; ' injuring the exchange that it had a contrary effect ! . for our exertions. Let the Committee examine ell and the reasons on which he grounded that such dis- Sir FRANCIS BURDETT was surprised to find these, and say whether or not they.have arisen under crepancy of opinon,would appear in the course of what no progress made infixing any common principle of' , the influence of a paper currency. he was . about to offer to the attention of the House.— the measure in debate. He had th o ug ht that nothin g 1 Mr. WHITBREAD rose (amidst loud cries of A metallic circulation, like all other commodities, I could be more incontestible than that the limit of the Question) and said, that the doctrine he had just varied in price. No one would contend that the sup- I exchange must be the cost of transporting the pre- heard from the Hon. Director who had just sat down ply of Bullion occasioned by the discovery o f the ' cious m e tals. But this principle was doubted like was to him entirely new and most tremendous. He American mines, had not reduced the value of that the rest, and the merits of the whole question were wished to identify himself with his Hon. Friend who merchandize. Now it was possible, as gold was lia- ! still at sea. If any view of things was suited to create I first opened this debate, and concurred with him in Me to fluctuation of price, that the depreciation of despondency, it was that of identifying the power and ! every word of his propositions. He thought they notes might depend on the advance on that metal, safety of the country with its paper system. He could ought to stop at nothing short of a resumption of cash rather than on a decrease in the value of paper. But , mention the language held at the beginning of the war ' payments. The Bank of En g land, who had now been before he would any further pursue this train of tea- , with France. The very same arguments which were convicted of error, but not convinced, should e not 1* 'toning, he wished to strip the question of one gloss' now urged by the M i n is t e r i n favour of the p a p er sys. suffered to persevere in a system which, their owes by which it had been sought to obscure it. It had I tem, were then brought forward triumphantly as fore- Directors admitted, must end in a national bankrup tc y been asked, would we risk the safety of the country in ' telling the ruin of the enemy. Fra nce must perish, I and ruin. Those who opposed these resolutions denied order to procure a favourable state of exchanges? He , she could not live with a depreciated currency—her I that the report was consistent with the evidence given conceived this to be a nugatory question, for it had ; paper must ruin her finances. The currency of thisibefore the Committee. If the period for cash pay not been previously moved, that to procure such a state , country was depreciated to all intents and purposes. ments were not now fixed, it must be considered that would interfere with our military operations, or in IHe held in his hand a short statement which carried I the present system would become pre v al e n t. The , any degree endanger the safety of the country. He demonstration to his mind in this point. It was a Chancellor of the Exchequer meant that it shall be should, therefore, proceed to reason on the question, return from Jersey. In that Island the English guinea permanent, and the fantastical opinions of . some he hoped, without any imputation on his patriotism. was worth 25 livres, 10 sous; the pound Bank note Honourable Gentlemen who asserted, by this mea. 'lt had never been his practice to utter any thing was only held equal to 21 livres : yet the 25 livre sure they had Bonaparte chained down, would, in disrepectful of any Gentleman in that House, but note of the Jersey Bank, that small establishment, in his opinion, at last make Bonaparte the Chairman really opinions had been expresed in the course of in that small island, passed for the full 25 livrts. of the Bank of England. The reasoning by which the present debate, of which the least that could I Was it to be said that the Bank of England note was : this favourite paper system was sup ported was most be said was that they w're singularly absurd. It not depreciated under these circumstances? But I fa l lacious, and the statements of the advantages re had been assumed that notes and guineas circulating ! Gentlemen objected to all this•as theory. They had ! suiting from it were most false, ayid contradicted by together must necessarily be of equal value ; but lan utter aversion to principle, to any thing like an the petitions on th e table of the House. They asset-- where was the ground upon which they were thus ° extended view. They loved to shut their eyes, and ted that the export trade eves most flourishing, but identified ? Might it not as well have been main- grope their way at the hazard, indeed, of some few was this to be reconciled to the hundreds of mentifac tainel when light guineas were in circulation, some ineonveniencies. They staggered on, knocking their turers from Glasgow, Manchester , &c. now c rowdin g not containing above seventeen shillings worth of gold , heads against every past , and breakin g their shins ; I our streets, and applying in vain for relief to the Vice. that they were of equal value with those of the full and this they called practice. The observations ',President of the Board of Trade ? But such was the weight, along with which they circulated, and that thrown out on the excessive issue of the country banks state of the bank-note now, that go into ten shops out the nation should be therefore saved the expence of a were rather unjust. They were not to blame ; the of twelve, it was worth nothing ; and in many of new coinage. While uttering arguments, or rather whole fault lay with the original sinner, the Bank of , them, such was the state of the paper currency at assertions of this nature, Gentlemen had neglected to England. This situation iif the country banks re- present, that the shopkeepers would rather give credit fix their attention in any degree cn the country banks, minded him of the story in Gil Blas, where amongst than take the Bank-notes. He admitted, that he be- fr a . much as they were connected with the present discus- the robbers in the w ood , o ne of them dated the be- lieved the Bank Directors had wished to act well, but , sion. Previous to the restriction, persons in the lower ginning of all his misfortunes from his resemblance to ' they were wholly mistaken in the mode of doing it. classes of life were used to give a decided preference the Prince of Asturias. He had been brought up with ! With reference to the war, he was convinced that to coin, and whenever they were enabled to lay by the Prince, and being also very like his Highness, got the restrictions were most ruinous and impolitic.— any thing, they never thought of hoarding paper ; thewhipping whenever the Prince did any thing wrong.. As a war system, therefore, he thought it an imps but since the restriction, not being able to procure 1 (Hear.) This unfortunate similitude of the country- ' per measure to adopt ; and it there was a peace in six specie, they generally had recourse, from many ob- banks was the source of the calumny. The Bank of months, they would not be able to restore the cash vious reasons e .to .the notes of country bankers resi- England deserved' fire favour ; it had shown itself payments. He saw no end to it but national bank. dent in their immediate neighbourhood ' • hence a vast the uniform tool of the Minister of t he da y . It had ru p tc y . If there were two chartered banks, he did superfluity of paper hod amen, numbe rs of specula- been triumphantly asserted, that two prices were not not think there would be any additional circulation tors having embarked in the banking business, many known : but they were known. It was as yet incon- of paper. France was hermetically sealed against with fair views, but far the greater number from some venient to propose them publicly ; the penalties of us. If the only evil of which we had to complain vague notions of ;adder; wealth through a channel the law prevented many—public opinion prevented was fraud and perjury, then remain the fraud and they had never explored, ignorance being of'en the many. But it was not to be d o ubt e d that there the perjury—Wear, hear.) What does the author of source of hope as well as of fear. These circumstances, were multitudes who would prefer a lower price the Counter-revolutionists mean to propose. After unnoticed as they had remained, formed a very pro- in gold to a higher in paper. He (Sir Francis Bur- , the deliberation and knowledge of the Right Ho. minent feature in the causes why, in a very short time, Jett) had been offered wine for the two prices. (Hear.) pourable Gentleman (Mr. Vensittart), he thought we should not have a , sufficiency of bullion to manage He approved of the principles of the Report, but he' something better might have been produced. but our foreign concerns. It had been said that our me - could not rec o n cile hrmselt to the remed y . He was the Members of the House had many of them taken I tallic circulation had been reduced, in order to devote disposed to believe that this evil of the paper system no part in this public estimation of Bank notes.— isuch part as was wrested from it to those concerns, was now absolutely beyond it. A progress in such a I Would the lawyers, physicians, bakers, or butchers, the importation of corn,and other expences of a similar . system was like a st e p i n to D ante ' s hell, on whose gate las soon have Bank-notes as they would guineas ? nature ;he must confess that he was unable to con- was inscribed—who enters here leaves hope behind. I (Hear, hear, and Laugh:.) Officers of the army and ceive, as the reduction could not be indefinite, Adam Smith—but he was one of the theorists—one navy would not approve of Bank-notes. Upon the when all our coin was gone, and if going rapidly, of the hair-brained speculators on principle—Adam ; whole, ruin could not be averted unless the Bank re how the purpose it was now made tp serve could any Smith had adverted to the very state of the Bank as sumed casb-payments in two years from this time.— _ -old pot contend that we the present hour, and spoke of it as a ruinous one.— i This _was the fuldlled prophecy of Mr. Fox, and the _..... .. _ . . . It --• of For Their tthlf- anticipated onition .. Mr. ox. _ were mute, but their vcce still sounded. Foreign nations were prostrate by their alliance with us, and, if we followed our paper system, we should be pros trate too. Mr. S. THORNTON explained. Mr. MARRYAT shortly animadverted on the differing theories of this novum arcanum—this new philosopher's stone. Notes were forced into circula tion, and were not called for by the wants cf the peo ple. There had been excess, and that excess had originated in a wish to increase the pro&ts of the Banat of England. Mr. HORNER replied with great talents and ability. He defended the conduct of the Committee as to the manner in which, by reporting their own opinions, they had complied with the orders of the House. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then stated, that the Committee had in the beginning of their Report given an abstract of the evidence, many parts of which were erroneous, oat. anuled, and false. He then proceeded to take a view of tEe 'peat objet. tiont whiip had been urged against his propositions, and concluded an eloquent reply amidst loud cries of Hear, hear. The Committee then divided upon Mr. Horner 's first Resolua den —For it 75—Against it 1 it —Majority 76. This division decided the question as to &lithe other Resolutions proposed by Mr. Horner, except the laic, upon which anotherdi. vision took place—l'or it 45—Against it leo—Majority 14%. The decision of M. Vausitrart's itesolatiocs was deterred to this. day. "'be House then resumed, when tho Cosnminee'bed JAM to sit spin ibis day.- aiejourned at Five 06.4. • • • • • who raised a similat babble, be suSjecied punishment? Mr. WI E 11.F0 ACE s he could from saying a few Not ds. He issd every the Directors of the Batik, wlyss in Renee taiaed their present emikedce by a aucce merce, but he knew them to be mi►taken i tem, and he w!sbed the Hlise to express ri in order that they might vet disentanglo present situation. He co iiidered th it so change in the system must take place, it would be impossible for the Bank of t to bear it. The Bank Directors spoke ' deuce, but their establishmentappeared to to a man who is not so near death as wl i a le as Ad