Star. — London, England, 1819-02-19 00:00:00

could wish, from its very coafined a th nd A ire. Ile should therefore propose, at question be put upon it. sla.R then put the previous question. tEstFORCE said, he felt quite at a loss :onclusion from the speech of the Noble just sat down. The speech which he was divided into two parts. In the *wen the friends of humanity room to' g • support, but the latter part totally de-1 :aspect. In the observations the No made, he would appeal to any one in ~ether he had given any pledge that lie a moral reformation in the condition ;s e—(Hcar, hear.)--Ile would ask upon it could be justified, that those persons red of • a regular police—(hcar, hear)— iany British subjects should be shut out IMOII blessings of the British Constitu hear, /scar)—The Report which had resented to the House on this subject, :so acing any arguments against this mea _ the strongest motives for going into ittee—(.;ear, hear). —He had heard with we, a very respectable and learned per who was long conversant with the laws, eight, move, in that House, for an in subject which connected itself in some this, and which, from the character of a proposing it, and the facilities which el to he afforded, was likely to lead to The greatest evil which flowed from listributiun of capital punishment was, :d the system from ,a real to a nominal hcar).—Laws were indeed enacted, but trunk from the execution of them— e—From this ill-judged severity, the cri mbolJened to commit offences venial in thinking the law would overlook it.— rtelv necessary to inquire into the state' • NC: ales, to eaable the House to learn to of aggravation the transporting of con was eerried. Ile was in doubt whether r to suggest, as aueiliary to the researches ,ded itsesery into the state of prisons, to . `,revard, or a celebrated little work ld shed much useful information upon . A question would naturally offer itself, irisons have been hitherto rather schools taugurazion, than retreats whence the in purged fro:n crime ?. Perhaps the an. would be found in the regulations which opted in these-places. If this question Je disposed of until the Committee, which co be formed, had done with inspecting • os in the kingdom, distant indeed must mention to be looked for. Bat he would • e consideration of a measure so impotent to be put of until then? We shall be, ear, lamenting the slowness of its pro- • injured humanity was murmuring at our Gear, hear). Perhaps the doCtrine of the :vention of crime by the frequency and punishments had been pushed too far.— atake scene allmeances for temptations :he way of criminals, the natural conse oar owe improvident legislation— ( Hear, e law, however severe In its theory, finds esecutioaers severe enough, to visit with ;,;ialeut tl:e commission of offences com venial inelleir nature. He himself could, knowleke, fernish matter enough to the , and when it world be considered that it :voce Lefol - e the Iloose there were annu seted to New South Wales, upwards of xl convicts, the injustice of abandoning so scion of our fellow subjects to neglect was et to be defended.-(Hear, hear, hear.)— raluAble information which his Honourable le Mover) had - given to the House, was rak i,, inestimable from the channel through came. That information was derived from .nan who had long filled situations in the Co great responsibility, and was entitled to ge -vet front the amiableness of his character. considered the privations which that wor aiffered in his exertions in the cause of hu that Colony, how he explored.the characters :yes, and exposed his life among thens, it relish one of the finest examples. of disinter eeity to be met with. Irene the communi rade by him it would seem that the greater the females were abandoned to the most prostitution, and the resources of the male in were no less unworthy—(hear, hear.) — ,y thing more than this shew the necessity quiey ? The Committee which had before sat nliject s had before them all this ipformation , had not arrived at any favosrable result; it was to expect any good issue from cold vain undertakings. It had been said that a ras now about to proceed to the Colony, and euiries on the spot into' the hardships com et.. lie had understood this person to be dieted for the task, and he should have his h for the success of his undertaking—(Wear.) re consist:ration of this measure should await Irn of this Gentleman was unnecessary, parti es there were already so many facts which .alculated to assist the House in coming to a elusion. The opposition which this measure eerienced this night had greatly surprised him it had been the first proposition on the sub aids had been submitted to the House since Ice--(1/eai)—and, at least, from its import leserved some consideration. The turn which thie I.ori had given to it, by moving the pre esteetron, amounted, in fact, to a complete ne on it (Hear, hear!) When it shall have come emseleved in the way suggested by the Noble it will nieet with but. half a discussion. There else isesione whose interest it may be to keep • C:, ,, :lnr:).nt, and it may be naturally :hey Will come forward but reluc •o.. Any evidence in a cause to which the hewn themselves hostile (hear 1) prc:tc(l too seriously on the house, 1f:,000 persons was daily rising ancl, if not reformed in time, dime se be a net for pirates froth every part of the A. It bed already colonized New Zealand, and eetensivsle connected with 'all the ports in the . St -4. The influence it may have Apon the Uri i:eipire in India, though distant, was not wholly 4*!L o: , t of the calculation. How much easier • aet, r. this time, before it had attained a gi- . •.... gantic growth, to reform some abuses ? which, if ca tered grow obstinate by long standing, may even tually resist all our efforts to correct them. Lord CASTLEREAGH, in explanation, said he was unwilling to impute to his Honourable Friend a wilful mis-statement of what he had said, but he could not help thinking he had been misunderstood. Mr. GOULBbUItN was of opinion that the Ho nourable Gentleman who had last spokiii, had been mistaken in the line of arg ument adopted by his No ble Friend. If he understood him rightly, he had im puted to him a desire to put a atop to inquiry, by moving the previous question—( Hear, hear). From the-very can:lid avowal made by the Noble Lord of his great willingness to go into the inquiry, he did not think he should have been now charged with being averse to it. It was only to the mode proposed that he took exception ;• whiie he distinctly and positively assented to. the expediency and necessity of the mea sure. Perhaps it was not competent to any set of men, even with all the facilities which it was possible to be afforded them, to do any substantial benefit, by discussing on a subject at such an immense distance from the scene of the transaction. In all that had been said upon this subject, no intention whatever seemed to have been paid to the measures which had been already adopted by the Government.— These measures were not hasty, but the consequence of long consideration upon their efficacy; but he would admit, that the difficulty of getting a proper person to be sent out, had, for some tune, been a bar to their exertions. Such a person had since been procured, and, he was happy to find, had met the, approbation-of the warmest friends of this measure, who, in truth, had only done him justice. That Gen tleman had, however, been made the victim of the basest calumnies from another quarter. It had also been urged, that the Report of the Committe:: of 1812, furnished legal testimony to the necessity of -this measure. Could it be expected, at ; this day, to compass more desirable ends than that enlightened and humane body of men—he meant the Committee of 1812—were able to arrive at ? When such men as Sir Samuel Romilly, Mr. Homer, and Mr. Aber cromby, were on it, it was a strong presumption that all had Peen done which was possible. He would contend that , the House were not furnished with bet ter materials now for forming their judgment than at that period. Much had been said as to the total disregard to the Morals of convicts on board ; but lie would advance a single fact, which, if admitted, would at least prove that Government had not been totally inattentive to their comforts. In all these ships there had been a classification of the convicts, and the boys had been invariably sepa rated from the more grown persons.—(Hear, hear.) —Those who had been sent to inspect these trans ports, reported that there was in all of them a com.. parative degree of comfort, and the greatest attention paid to the amelioration of their hardships. He should read extracts front the letter of a most respectable clergyman, whose avocations detained him constantly in the charge of the convicts. It was not addressed individually to himself, but a friend of his had .kindly permitted him to peruse it. He was a person en titled to great credit and attention from the sacred ness of his character, and the disinterestedness of his labours. In speaking of the convicts on board a transport ship, he said a grammar school had been regularly organized, that t h e Scriptures were daily read to upwards of 80 persons, and that tell of theml had . heconie such proticients, as to assist thE tutor iu his ialiout s. Thirty, who were at first unable to read, had since becomegreat adepts; and the worthy man concluded by saying, that his labours were well re quited, by being the instrument of ameliorating the condition of these men. Mr. Gdulbourn then en tered into a review of the Colony, and justified the G o vernment at home, upon the ground of the state not only of Colonies in general, but even of many countries in Europe. Sir BYAM MARTIN read a letter, signed by se veral convicts after their arrival in New South Wales, expressive of their gratitude for the kindness of their treatment. He read several similar papers, all tend ing to prove that the treatment of the convicts was such as to afford them mire satisfaction, and even excite their gratitude. In one it was stated particu larly, with respect to the ship in which O'Halloran was transported, that he had a space allowed him, equal to what was afforded to six ordinary convicts. He said.this was the ship which had been branded' with the name of the white slave ship-4 Hear, hear). Out of 3,180 convicts, only fourteen had died in their passage from this country. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH felt called upon to say something on this question. His Honourable Friend'had not said, as was implied by the Honour able Member opposite, that the Noble Lord wished to. stifle inquiry, ' for such an expression would be en parliamentary ; but he said, the inquiry about to be tostituted wouldhave no'effect.. The two last sp e akers had forgotten the questioe. One of them, indeed, bad refuted the whole of what had fallen from'the Noble Lord who sat next him. He was of opinion with his Honourable Friend, that the inquiry propo sed by the Noble Lord would produce no result.— The question was, not whether an inquiry was neces sary, but in what manner it was to be carried on ? Those who were acquainted with the most deplor able part of our aiiodern history, were aware that many Nish Catholics had been sent out to New South Wales; and was it now fair for Government to take credit for consulting with the Catholic Hierarchy how they should supply them with religious instruc tion ? a point on which one,of the last speakers had addressed the House in such an exulting tone. It was a disgrace to the successive Administrations in this country, that this had not been done before. He adverted to the neglect of the system which had been adopted by our ancestors—that of giving to our Co lonies something like the British Constitution, and concluded with supporting the motion. Mr. CANNING said be was not prepared for this view of the subject. He was an enemy to granting to our Colonies the principles of the English Consti tution ; and his llonourable Friend opposite had unce been of the same opinion—they had fought side by side' in suport of its There was a wide difference be tween an acquired colony and a receptacle for con victs. Were convicts to be considered as a species ofl the British Constitution? or did the Honourable Gen tleman wish to establish a political hierarchy in this Colony, consisting of King, Lords, and Commons? If the Honourable Gentleman's motion - an accusation against the Government, be rejected; but if, on the contrary, it Was a motion for inquiry, it ought to be supported--(Hear, hear.) But it was necessary that the state of the convict ships should be considered as a connecting link between the treatment of convicts and the state of New South Wales. With respect to inquiry into the state of the criminal code, he said, mere declamation could have, no effect but to excite prejudice and misjudgment. By throwing the expectation forward that the pu. ni , liment of death would be done away with, the 'lease would unhinge the peace of society. By what had fallen from his Honourable Friend, it wouldap. pear as if they were daily sanctioning executions, of which they, by not educating the people, wereguilty. He wished not to treat the subject as an abstract pro position. It was, the object of his Noble Friend's pro mised Motion not to treat this subject separately, but to inquire into it as connected with the state of convicts generally. He had no doubt every informa tion would be obtained by his Noble 'Friend's Motion which might facilitate the possibility of reducing the number of capital punishments. Mr. TIERNEY said, he was sometimes accused of a disposition to jest. but none but the Right Honour able Gentleman could jest on such a subject as the present. His Honourable Friend's Motion was for an .Inquiry into the State of the Colony of New South Wales, and of the convicts there. The Noble Lord gave notice, that he would on Thursday, move to Inquire into both these, and alto into the State of the Prisons. In consequence of which, they were called upon to get rid of the Motion of his Honourable Friend, and wait for that of the Noble Lord. If, ihowevor, the Noble Lord was serious, his best mode would be now to add his Motion for Inquiring into the State of the Gaols to the Motion of his Honour able Friend. As to the state of the convicts on board the ships, it had no more to do with the inquiry with regard to the state of New South Wales, than the state of the packets which took Ministers to Aix-la- Chapelle, would have to do with a Motion for an in quiry into the Convention which took place there. The House might as well think of going to Botany Bay, as think of getting te- a termination of the Com= mittee—(A laugh). But such was the system now pursued, that only mention a jail, and down came the whole Criminal Law in a body—( Hear, hear). When his Honourable Friend said that Government was responsible for the growth of crime, he meant to say that Government was responsible, so far as they bad not paid su ffi cient attention to he education of the lower classes—(hear, hear). And if the want of education was not the cause of the growth of crime, he would ask what was the cause? An inquiry into the state of convicts and imprisoned persons, was quite a distinct thine. from the consideration of the criminal law.. Nettling was more simple than the subject of, debate on this night. It was an inquiry into the state of convicts on their passage into New South Wales, and during their residence in that country, and these subjects had no right to be in volved in the consideration of the criminal code— (hear, hear, hcar). Mr. B. BATHURST contended, at some length, for confining the present inquiry to the Committee on the Criminal Code. Mr. BUXTON rose amidst loud cries of question. He gave it as his opinion, that if the present inquiry were to be undertaken by the Committee, who had other business blended with it, that Committee would neter he able to make a reasonable report—their, /awry The %ray to proceed properly in the inquiry was, to raise a large and wide base, and erect the work pyramidically to a point. But it appeared to him, that the Noble Lord opposite had reversed this intention, for he had made his base a point, and his top a wide indefinite plane —(hear, hear). Mr. KARR YATT stated, that he was enabled to assure the House, that the mortality on board con vict ships was considerably smaller than amongst 'imprisoned persons any where else— (Cries of Quel-1 lion ! Question I) • i • Mr. BENNET replied, at some length, to the ar guments of the different Gentlemen who preceded 1 I him. In alluding to what be called a sarcasm from 1 a Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. Canning), he would be! permitted to say, that he did not regret not haying o • I been gifted with talents to abuse or turn the stiffer-1 Ings of his fellow-creatures into. jest so much to the amusement of unit House, an,•l the di-,gust 61 the country. Ile felt for the sufferings of his fellow creatures ; he had a bias, a passion for redressing them, and this circumstance niiht have given a warmth to his description of their affliction, which, perhaps, as a Juryman, he might, not be justified in taking for granted.--(Hear, hear.) lie was willing to accept the compliments of the Right Hon. Gen tleman ; he was happy, indeed, to receive them, but he should have been guile as well plcused with his, enmity; and if it were possible, that that Right lion. I Person should have hated him (Mr. Bennet) as much as he hated his Iliglst Ilon. Friends on his right and his left hand, then there might have been a hope that he (Mr. Bennet) and the Right Hon. Gentleman might come together. Mr. CANNING said, he had merely stated that he would not act upon the statement of the Ho nourable Gentleman, and he would say so still. • Mr. BENNET observed, that he would entertain whatever opinion he thought fit, and give expression to that opinion as consistently as he could with par liamentary decorum--(Hear, hear). • The Gallery was then cleared for a division, when the numbers were—For the motion, 93—Against it, 113—Majority, '2O. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, .and the House adjourned at Half-past Twelve. THE FRENCH LANCillAoE.—rms? who have not had the advantage of residing in France for the ac quirement of the,language, wa derive much bolero from a little Work that has just appeared, entkled, The Art of French Conversation. It is constructed on so new and excellent a plan, as will, no doubt, cause it to supersede the use of all woi ks of a similar nature that have hitherto appeared. BATH ING.—Sir ARTHUR CLARKE, the Proprietor of the Public Baths in Dublin, has just published a very interesting little Tract on Bathing.—lt contains a code of instructions deduced from principles and experience, highly useful to bathers and invalids. As it is now well ascertained that either cold or warm bathing may be very beneficial to some and extremely injurious to others, according to their complaints - 4 constitutions, informaf on this important sub WESTMINSTER ELECTIOA: FIFTH DAY. Yesterday, .at four o'clock, the numbers were di 'dared to stand as follows : Air. LAMI • 1207 7 Mr. Hosswess Major Cinswisoke . Mr. Hoanouse said, the Whigs and the Tories 'combined had that day been too much for the elec 'tors of Westminster. It was possible they woald prove so to-morrow, but still he had the moat perfect confidence, that the result of this contest would be what they could wish it. It was known that all—he would not say all—but generally those who came to vote for their opponents were pressed men, who might be brought up at any time—(Misses and ap plause.) He did not know whether Lord Castlereagh had been to vote yet or not, but as there had keen • very little to do fir: some days in the House, be be.• hewed the benches had been emptied to fill the hustings. He hoped the electors would see is the long array drawn up against him, that he had to combat with fearful odds. Besides the heavy artil lery of the hustings, some light pieces from the country were yesterday brought up against him, and he learnt from some c f the newspapers these con tinued firing till a very late hour. Besides those re gularly connected with the London stage, several provincial performers were engaged. Amon.. these was an Honourable Baronet from Staffordshire, whom he hest recently heard for the first time at the Crown and Anchor, and who had declared that he came forward but to utter three sentences. Ile had been afraid, that this Gentleman, with his three sentences, would have been like Friar Bacon's brazen head, and that after uttering them, he would tuu,ble dose and break to -pieces. He had, however, came forward again, and if properly encouraged, night afford them future amusement. Another coma' v gentle man who had addressed them, was also entitled to encouragement, as he had heard a great deal of his talents, as displayed elsewhere, and believed, that, like Bob Acres, he was e , a great man at home.' He understood that this Gentleman had spoken of Sir Francis Burdett as being a mushroom. If the fact were so, he was the ()iciest mushroom he had ever 'heard of in his life. He had also added, that he - (Mr. Hobhouse) was to be brought into Parliament under the wing of this mushroom. It would not be right to look too closely at the met ':pars of these country Gentlemen, bet he might be allowed to say, that till now he never knew that mushrooms had wings. He wished these Gentlemen would confine • their observations to him. Ile was fair game, and as Mr. Lawson had said, before he was returned, should be happy in any way to contribute to the conviviality 'of the scene; but he thought Gentlemen might be betteremplo)ed than in making long winter journics, 1 at the risk Of life 'and limb, to pull down a character of 28 years standing. Mr. Lamb had complained, on the preceding day, that he was not witty enough. To this he could only reply, that men were as they were made, and if he were not so witty as Mr. Lamb he could not help it. If wishing could make him so, he would not long be fe..ind deficient, for be would wish all night till he met :hem again in the morning, rather than contintle to merit the reproach he had encountered. When he had questioned Mr. Lamb on his opinions, and on :hose of his party, on the preceding day, on the subject of Parliamentary Re form, he had . answered fairly enough what were his own sentiments; but ‘il,ou he came to ask him whe ther the Whigs of 1;419 we ull pledge themselves to any thing like the opinions of the Whigs of 1798,1:e was answered by a loud laugh. For this he blamed I& own simplicity. He ought to have known better than to ask the question he had put, as every one knew the pledge which he had called for could not he given. The reception whicl4the question had met with proved to him that the Vhigs had improved fa late. Formerly they used to laugh when they broke a promise; now they only laughed before they made on,. He, however, trusted he was justified in what rte had done, and that he had as good a right to the question as they had to laugh at it when it irad been put. He was for a s Radical Reform ; but D:r. Lamb told the Electors of Westminster, that where the right of voting was with them who paid scot dal lot, they actually enjoyed almost the right of Uni versal Suffrage. This was Whig arithmetic, which went to tell them that 14,000 sifts almost equal to 163,000--(A laugh)—But Mr. Lamb conid not nu derstand his plan. For himself, all he had said of his plan was, that it was no plan at all, but a pria ciple. Mr. Lamb bad said that he (Mr. Ilobhouse) was a more moderate Reformer than himself. This he had stated, notwithstanding the declaration which he (Mr. Iloblicuse) had made, that he was not afraid of any Reform, though it might comprehend the largest extension of suffrage. He, however, was nut such a bigot as to declare that Annual Parlia ments and Universal Suffrage furnished the only nos trum that could save the Srate. But a wish had been expressed by Mr. Lamb, to know what he meant by Radical Reform ? It was curious that Mr. Fox had . in 1798 been asked the same qUestion by Mr. Perceval. Mr. Fox replied, that he meant a fundamental Re form; and the Friends of the People" had given a more detailed explanation of radical Reform, by declaring that the whole system must be charged —that, to prune the vicious tree was but to strengthen it; when it ought to be pulled up by the mots,— , This would be found in the Resolutions sent forth by the Society, and signed by Mr. William Smith, as Chairman. This, however, was so long ago, that the Whigs of the present, day had forgot even the meaning of the words Radical Reform. He would now screw what sort of Reform Mr. Lamb was friendly to. lle had a document to read of some imporanee, and a Gentleman, Mr. Samuel Cl irk, of St.;t:unes's Parish, stood ready to attest it. At a meeting of Mr. Lambs friends, No. 4, Park-place, Wednesday, Fe bruary 17,_ Lord . Sefton in th e Chair, Mr. S. Clark had put a few questions to Mr. Lamb. He had wished to know if that Gentleman's plan of Reform went to prevent the return of Members for Bath, New Sarum, Gatton, Banbury, and other places, by a very few in dividuals, whose numbers he specified, and to trans fer their franchise to more populous places. To this Mr. Lunb replied, that he was a friend to the larger extension of the Elective Franchise, and to the shorter duration of Parliaments ; and the principles of Sir Samuel Romilly were his—(rear)—but he not girdled the Borough system so as to be so well acquainted with it as the Gentl eman who had y as h e 'could a 2turc ,, : • •,,, s queSuol spEAKER I t r . wILBERFO 4v , any conclus w h o had just !oast heard was 'he had given efor his suppor ' d'.:tt pt °spa L or 2 had mat', whether :I a ttempt a nu *convicts ?--4 p r outhis it coo • ° deprived of I l l y SO many the common I ).411ear, htwr l a st presented fon advancing a lorded the • Committee—(l ocoure, a ~ and cae s: ho fittnla Right, ,0 4 iato a subjec wor e with this, o(i:ralme:llan pro • is^d to I wr; pIJ t t Ye,t results. ircsisting distribi t o t itreduced the As.-(lle.sr) hear). L-Itaity shrunk tzar). —Fro 6 el was cmbolJ nature, thiul v as a b : oltltelv itiew South \1 al ilegt:.o of ag vs thit'acr L. ; wl5 propar to st; the intended it; :Hilt Mr. ;. `ew: u ich would she at subject. A q" :ay those prisons :vicious inaugur rites came purge ter to that woul. been adopted ss not to bc dip Tr; about to be ti tithe prisons in t e the constimar LI :;1:, why the coast this was to be after y:ar, 1. rt.•,, while injure :eaess•—{hear, preyentic ti punisl I.e make in the w: rrtices of our os The law, want of e sect puniCaate r.r.teely venial 'ma know l atn:!:ze, and ia T-aleoce 1 :.• tr la yo:ted r•ituadred coal .7,e a portion r. appreat to ix very Lead tate iluv ized truly inc . .; catch it earth!. anntleman wh stw of great re teialrespect fr When one consi thy man suffere tamp in that C ei its natives, a /could furnish c titer! integrity I unions made b part of the to deprived pro ;t ppulatinn wet Nisi any thin far art enquiry at this %lint yet they had to lasel it was aid reluctant iiTion , .vas no , inquirie P arid of. I est ;fish for ...It: ;he cons r.turn of t . .tarly as th calculat conclusic e . i . oerient j .iitie.h ponce_( deservt 7.ae Noble 1..; '• Jus qttestit km it k.” 4 i :i, t will :::, many in : s. It was eatensi %rt., Se a , iospir tt: ('' c „lot, s a wide aluerence ...- .-., ..._ _ a receptacle for co n- a code of i nstruct i ons deduced from principles and Mr. Lamb replica, isidered as a species of experience, highly useful to bathers and invalids. As extension of the Elective Ftanchise, ( piad to the d the Honourable Oen- it is now well ascertained that either cold or warm shorter duration of Parliaments ; and the inciples litical hierarchy in this bathing may be very beneficial to some and extremely of Sir Samuel ltomilly were his—(4ear)—but he not Lords, and Commons? injurious to others, according to their complaints studied the Dorough system so as to be so well 's motion was meant as and constitutions, information on this important sub- acquainted with it as the Gentleman who had leernment, it ought s to ject cannot be toe, widely diffused. asked it. Mr. Clirks, upon this,. clialleriged il.ly pf , • z • 6 o . • . .. . . _ rte . F 't I 1 I! '~~~~ ;1 . . i , .. . J . 1 . , I l , . , , , , , I) 1 i o 1 ~ .., , , I - t