Star. — London, England, 1819-02-23 00:00:00

1 if r r' .. . ~: ,~ A dents of former times, for it was a great relief to find them for a guidance. It was at the same time impossible not to presume and be confident that the individuals who had entered the Royal Household had done it not merely with a view to the salaries which they received, but to the ultimate provision which was held out to them by those precedents. There was another point also which entitled them to consideration. There was a strong indisposition in families to receive any persons who had belonged to the Royal Household, from an apprehension that they must have contracted habits which it would be difficult to conciliate with a lowei situation. If pre cedents on the point were required, those of the Dowager Princess of Wales, and even of Queen Mary, might be quoted, but Parliament would exer cise their judgment upon them, and take an econo mical view the question. s The course which the Committee had taken, was to propose, as a remunera tion for the servants of her late Majesty, the continu ation of their salaries, especially to the female atten dants. With respect to the Officers of State belonging to the Establishment, the ancient precedents had not been followed. The superannuation was to be with-' holden from them, which would occasion a diminu tion of £7,000, and reduce the amount of the super annuations to a sum between £lB,OOO and £19,000. This sum was smaller than that granted to the Ser vants of the Princess Dowager of Wales and Queen Caroline, and the same as that which the :ervants of Queen Anne had received, though there was such a difference in the value of money. The 3d Resolution he should combine with the 4th, as it was to the lat ter he understood the attention of the House would be principally drawn, and it was likely to receive au amendment from the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo site, with respect to the principle which ought to re gulate the management of his Majesty's privy purse. lie should propose to follow strictly the precedent of 181'2, and that the Custos should undergo no altera tion in his emoluments, any more than in his duties. The Right Hon. Gentleimm had intimated an inten tion to propose that the provision for the Custos should be taken out of the Privy Purse instead of the Civil List. But in every view which that Right Hon. Member might take of the question, to touch that fund as if it were a public fund, he trusted it would be proved that he was indefensible by law. He (Lord Castlereagh) undertook this task on no other ground than that of principle, for be had understood that the question would be raised, not as to the amount of the sum, but the fund out of which it was to be . drawn. On the pi inciple o the appointment itself, all could but be agreed. It was a the highest im portance that a duty so eminently public should be' set up in strong contradistinction to any appointment cif an inferior nature. The only question, therefore, must be, whether the money should be taken out of the 'Civil List or the Privy Purse? It was impossible to conceive how much greater difficulty there was in Obtaining front the House any grant for a Member of the Royal Family, than for any other individual to whom the same idea of Crown patronage would not be attached. Never had a course more tempting for a Minister to pursue offered itself, than that of Complying with the suggestions of thetther side of . the j House. In arguing that the privy purse was an inviolable fund, like the private property of every individual, he therefore only acted from a sense of, duty, for it would have been much easier for him to close with the proposition of the Right Honourable Gentleman.' All difficulties Would then have vanish ed away, and nothing would have remained but the consciousness of having taken an Illegal and unjusti fiable step. He considered the PrivyTurse as a hind Which no one could touch, and not liable to any charges which might be made by the Court of Chan cery on the private property of any other lunatic.— lie meant provided Parliament should deal with it according to those principles of integrity and justice which it had always displayed towards the highest and lowest subject of the realm. lie maintained that the privy purse was the private property of his Ma jesty in every _possible view, and was entirely pie tected against the doubts which the public character of the King might raise, as to its nature. Had the question been raised antecedently to the passing of the 39th and 40th of his Majesty, be would not say that the matter might not have been open to discus:ion. It might have been decided whether the £60,000 of the Privy Purse and theßevenue of the Duchy of Lan caster, were to he made the entire p:ivate property of his Majesty, or subject to the control of Parliament.— But after the p assing of that Act, all dissension on the subject had ceased to reside with Parliament ; for that Act had completely separated the capacity of his Majesty as King, from his capacity of a private per sim. It had suffered his Majesty, in the midst of the cares of his elevated situation, to enjoy all his rights as a private individual. It had enabled him to held property of which he could dispose by will or other wise as he might think proper, not only prospectively, bclt. retrospectively. If any doubt had remained on that subject, it would have been entirely set at rest in 1812, %%len Parliament had reco„, ,, nized the Privy Purse as the privatepropeity of his Majesty, described it as amounting to £60,000, and tied it up, on ac count of a malady which there was no reasonable hope would be of scion duration, as constituting part of the King's private property. No charge had hi therto been thrown upon it but of a private nature, and conformably with the intentions which his Ma jesty was known to have expressed. When he (Lord Castlereagh) had originally opened the subject to the House, he had considered two or three charges as so entirely of a private nature, and the wishes of his Majesty, that he had been induced to think they might be defrayed out of the Privy Parse. But he had since abandoned the idea, lest he should throw the least shadow of doubt on the total inviolability of that fund. No charge could be made upon it, without a departure from the compact entered into with the Crown, whatever might be done by the Court of Equity in the case of a private lunatic.-- And should he propose to guard the sacred person of our afflicted Sovereign as that of a private indivi dual, he knew a feeling would rite in the House sihith vlould spurn at so monstrous a proposition. Although little hope of his recovery remained, let him be surrounded with such a state as would spew, • ithaenothing could deprive him of the love and ye.' aeration ofbis people. In the case of a private Or ion it would be a matter of course to defray all the criipenies of his attendance and support out of his own property. But was that the course which Par liament ought to,pursue toward* the King ?—(hear). If it were, lee would place his foot on the Report of I Vie Committee. It had been the practice of Parlia-, went at all former reigns to allow certain new classes of duties to increase the revenue of the Sovereign. If those had been Applied to the service of his Ma. jesty, he would now have an income of two mil lions, or at least far more than would cover the amount of the Civil List. But the Sovereign had given up those productive sources of revenue to the. Public for a settled consideration. All the services charged on that. fund were performed on public grounfls, and by public officers. Ought they there fore to be defrayed out of his private property? He did not deny that the Civil List should undergo some modification, as in 1811 He even noweproposed one of a similar nature; but he maintained that his Majesty had rights which were still as sacred as those by which he held the throne of these realms, and , made him no less our Sovereign because he was in his present unfortunate situation. If the reasons which he had adduced on that subject were not conclusive, he trusted the practice of Parliament would prove so. With respect to the Curios Persona, did any officer ever bear a more exclusively public character? If he were asked; what was the officer in whom the con fidence of the people should be most firmly placed? he would say, that person who was to stand as the shield of the constitution and the country against the ambition of any individual wishing to accelerate an other reign—(Hear, hear.) Was such a person, hold ing so important an office, to be dwindled into a nurse? —(Hear, hear!) Whatever the House did, let it do it in a manly manner—(Hear, hear.) If any officer on the establishment was more especially con stitutional, it was the Custos Persona. What did the Act of Parliament say—both of them? A slight variation was made in the second, of which he would afterwards speak ; but both of them trusted the privy purse as the recognized property of his Majesty. It was not to be considered now as a fund simply be longing to his Majesty ; because it was possible that, in pursuance of the powers vested ,in him for that purpose by Parliament. his Majesty might have di vested himself of all his rights in it. It might be that his Majesty had, previous to his illness, deviscd that fund, of which the Right Honourable Gentleman now wished Parliament to assume the disposal, to the person whom his Majesty might appoint his red duary legatee. His Majesty might have granted a vested interest in those very funds; therefore in truth the question was, whether the House had the power to take th . e surplus of the privy purse, or to throw on it the charges of the Custos, without violating the first principles of private property—(/fen;, hear.) 11 be had succeeded in conveying to the Ilouse any tliin; like the impression on his own mind—if the chat acter of the funds in question was such as he had described it—if the argument of its being private property was applicable to the case—he was swe that Parliament would never be persuaded to take any step in so clear a case, and that they would never consent to a measure whi<h would violate all the principles on which property was protected. And he iveuld wish to put it to the House, whether, when, in the height of his power they gave his Majesty the power of disposing of this property—a power which he but possessed in common with the meanest of his subjects—namely, that of g'ving assay, in such .a manner as he pleased, those sums which might be saved from private income? But he would put it to the House, whether, if they gave this right to his Majesty whi;n in the zenith of his power, would the Commons of England—this House, which was corn kmencing its career, and which was now to make it self a character with the nation—(Loud cheers fi out both sides of the Ifouse)—would this House, which was flow abot.t to come to a decision which would pro duce the first and stronge't impression of its charac ter—would they do that to their helpless Monarch, which, if done to a private individual, would be con sidered a monstrous and unjustifiable violation of private property—and would they do it to their un happy Monarch in his weakness and his sickness chars.) Would they stain the annals of the na tion, by acting on a principle which no Parliament had ever so lar compromised their character as to act upon it?—(Hear, hear!) Was this the first time that Parliament had been solicitei to violate the right of private property? Was this the List time that it had been suggested to the House as convenient to lay hold of funds which were unprotected private pro perty? And had such propositions ever beep enter tained, ever been listened to, by the House?—(Hear, hear, hear.) lf, 'amidst all the dangers and emer gencies and pressure of the late war, the House had resisted the proposal which had been made to seize the property of our enemies, vested in the public funds of the country—if the House had even refused to tax that property, notwithstanding all the endea vours to persuade them of the justice and equity of imposing such a %ix as the fair price for the protec tion of the property—if the Commons of England had theintegrity to decline any such measure, would they now lay a heavy band on the small remnant of the private property of his Majesty? (Loud cheering.) Indeed, he could hardly think it possible that the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) would behold enough to propose such a thing to the House. (Hear, hear.) Certainly he did give that Right Ho nourable Gentleman credit for so much true English feeling—for so much political prudence—for so much perspicuity—for se much regard to the great princi ples of the law of property—that he would be much surprised if he pressed his proposal to a division, or even brought it before the House. But if he pressed it to a question, on his conscience, he thought that to agree to it would consign them to infamy in the esti mation of the country— ( Loud cheering.) B u t if th e Right Honourable Gentleman had nerve enough to press it to a division, he trusted that the House would have such feeling on the legal and constitutional part of the question, as to meet it with a firm resolution to preserve the principle of legislative faith—with that noble sentiment which their ancestors on a former oc casion had recorded on the Statute Botilc, a Nolumur k Loud and continued cheering.) lees Anglia endari."-- { Loud Ile Noble Lord was then p rocee di ng to move the first Resolution, but after a short pause rose again and said, that he should have neglected a part of his duty son this occasion, if he had omittecrcalling their attention to the situation in whi c h t l4O RoyaiDuke was placed who was t o be supposed* chiefly con cerned in the decision of the House. 'On this sub ject he was authorised to deelare to the /louse the' sentiments of his ROal Higimess. Ile was sun' the Housewould feel that there was no want of respect towards them en the part of his Royal Highness. — On a subject which must so much affeet the feelings of his Royal Highness, his Majesty's Ministers had thought.it their duty to communicate with his Royal Highness upon it, and hewas now bound to apprise the. House of the result of that communication, so far as respected his personal feelings. His Royal Highness had authorised him to state, that nothing could be more painful to him than that any question should be brought before the House which con nected his name with a money vote ; that if he had only consiilted his own feelings, and had not felt that the question was one essentially connected with the trust which had devolved upon him under such dis tressing circumstances, and if he had not felt the ne cessity of having the question finally submitted to the judgment off - the House, nothing could have re conciled his Royal Highness to the pain of suck a discussion. But if the House should think fit, under all circumstances, to continue this allowance which they had thought it proper to grapt to his late Mo ther, his Royal Highness authorised him to say, that no consideration could induce him to accept of any sum out of the Privy Purse of his Majesty—(Loud cheering.) As to the functions which had devolved on him with all the melancholy circumstances attend ing it he would in any event be happy to discharge the duties which his situation rendered necessary to. ward; his Royal Father and his country. In the de cision of this question his Royal Highness was very anxious that every thins affecting himself personally should be laid out of view. But as to taking any part of the money out of the private property of his Father—(Hear, hear, hear,) he desired it to be stated that it was a measure to 'which, directly or indirectly, he would never consent—(Loud cheering.) The Noble Lord conclUded by moving„as the first Resolution, ak That in lieu of 1:100,000 directed to be issued out of the Civil List for the Maintenance of the Windsor Establishment, the sum of 50,0001. be issued for the like purpose." Mr. TIERNEY admitted that nothing 'could be more fair than the statements just made by the Noble Lord. He should now consider the question before the House in three different points of view; the first related to the Windsor Establishment ; the second to the provision intended to be made for the servants of the late Queen ; and the third, to the salary intended for the Duke of York. With regard to the first of these, he had, at one time, thought that the sum of 50,0(0. was by far too much. But when he heard it stated, that even if his Majesty should be with drawn from ‘Windsor, the expenses of keeping Wind sor Castle would still amoinst to 18, or 20,000/. a-year, he withheld his opposition to the grant, be. cause he believed that 30,(Xi0/. the remaining; sum, was not too large for the establishment of his Mil-, jesty. He would not, therefore, try to bring about any little miserable plans of economy in this Es tablishment. If he had investigated all the items,, he might probably have ettected some little savings of about $ or 40004 a year, hut that he felt no nation to do; the task would have been painful and invidious. Indeed, there was enough of Royal de bates already in that House, and he greatly lamented that the career had not been closed long since, and that it was again opened afresh in the' present dis cussion. With regard to making a provision for the Queen's servants, it must be a matter of regret that this part of the subject had ever been referred to a Committee. In former times, the Kings and Queens of England made provisions for their servants, with out ever calling for the interference of Parliament. lndeen, the Member,s of the Committee had a hard duty imposed on them. They had to consider of the provision to be made for Ladies of rank, and all the circumstances of their embarrassed situationswere thus exposed. The House would recollect, that when this measure was first proposed, the Noble Lord said that Gentlemen were to be provided for as well as Lords and Ladies ; and 25,0001. was fixed fot the whole.— He (Mr. Tierney) objected to this latter p rov i s i on , and the Noble Lord himself very properly withdrew the proposition. in this conduct the Ministers might be compared to certain young elephants, which were ready to learn every kind'. of trick that might be taught them, and which would even take a shilling out of a countryman's pocket. But when aroused and sent into battle, they became very shy as well as timid, and upon an attempt made to goad them forward, they would turn about and trample on their 'own friends. Such was the case with those Ministers who shrunk from the bold proposal they had first made. He now came to the principal question on which the Noble Lord bad dwelt so long ; and after the eloquent declaration of, his Lordship on the sub ject, he should throw himself on the mercy of the House, for if he succeeded in his proposition, he should, ycording to the declaration of the Noble supPsedcecteirovt:geri fal:t.i.nsiedhsctee. Lord, be throwing infamy on a new House of Com mons. (Loud cries of Hear, hear.)— But convinced that he was acting on a principle of public duty, he should go on. With regard to any sum that might be voted out of the Privy Purse to the Royal Duke, if the House of Commons acted an infamous part in voting it, surely his Royal Highness could not be in famous if he-received it. He maintained, that any sum, from whatever source, which Parliament might offer, the proudest Duke in the world ought not to disdain accepting. The Act *hick originally gave to the King £1300,000 per annum, olv w f o il u th, l a d rthi t ia a em k d e eisn u p: p7 ipt ri h oo i np m ero se fi l g f us a ip l eea l se c k h si a un rF is oti t eti o l t ien r at all. There was a ce r t a i n un d erstan di ng between bis Majesty and his Ministers about the propriety of making disbursements from the sum. Originally, £48,000.a year was thought a sufficient sum to cover incidental expenses,. but it was found afterwards ne cessary to increase this to Cro,oool. a year, in conse quence of the additional expenditure created by the Royal Children, and other charges. It was not until 1759, that the Privy Purse was recognized at all, and it did not come again under the consideration of Parliament until 1799, when his Majesty intimated a desire to be p ut i nto a situation which would en able him to dispose of it by Will. The King's private property arose principp ll y from the profits of the Privy Purse and the issues accruing from the Duchy of Lancaster. The principal motive that induced his Majesty, at this period, to desire being enabled to purchase property,, was with a view of being able to perfect the works which were then in at Kew Palace, fir the use o f her *MajestT. 7rl at gave his Majesty a powe r o f tarrying sato effect his wen- lions, and distinctly recognized the sum of which was now before the House. By Acts 'y 40 of the King, the property was put at his and his right of transferring it was declared unrestricted as that of any individual in that —(hear, hear.)—This portion of the private should be held sacred and inviolable. Majesty was taken ill, the Ministers nzturall culated upon a speedy recovery, and in to arrange mauers in such a way as weeld agreeable to Royal delicacy, they proposed th ez of the King. But he would ask, where was t 4 cessity to intrsduce into this latter Act a pro-: for the Privy Purse, if it had been settled ti, ably on his Majesty for his life?—(hear, This Act directed that a sum of 4;60,0o0 s ly placed at the disposal of the Keeper of the Purse, who was tg put it to such uses, in' chase of private property as, he should deem his own name, but for his Majesty's use and' It soon, however, became evident, from the of the Physicians taken before the Privy that little prospect was to be entertained *ibis jesty's recovery, and then it became the duty cf, liament to make a new arrangement upon a mote tensive scale. It was then put into the hands Queen, the Prince Regent, and the Keepe r of Privy Purse ; and this Act distinctly proposes,l 'all reasonable expenses incid,mt to the care of Majesty's Person, should be charged upon the ear; of the Privy Purse, so that his 'notion so far, being infamous, as it was charged by Gentlemen the other side, had actually the sanction of tire , branches of the Legislature.—(Hear, hear.) 13 former Acts, viz. 39 and 40 of the King, three(:: . missioners were entrusted with the management ithe property, without Parliamentar7 authority; so sacred was their. trust that they took a sc, oath before entering upon the discharge of the4r not to disclose any thing regarding this prop unless it should be in cases where their interf would be to its benefit. The Act of 39 of the Is rendered it so sacred, that it was not left armee to any tribunal; but it must ever be emcee: that there was a very groat distinction bettered property thus vested in Isis Majesty, and that cf other person. The Privy Purse was private pre' but it did not come within the general deti,:it; all private property. If it had been of that tion, which would, properly speaking, he called vase property, it should not now be made asubi of discussion he r e. —( Hear, hear.) The sutras. _" upon the Privy Purse were an annual outgoing 1:15,000 per annum, and a quarterly one of £4,9a making in all about E 32,000 a year. These , were found not to be, sufficient, and it becare e 6 cceeary, in 1812, to provide a further sum of ts.efe It was shortly after wards found necessary to the quarterly incumbrance from 4,20 u/. to 4;:r and this Was the first alteration made in it subset' to its passing. The country had been led i:::u expense in consequence of the Royal illness, zed the attendance of Physicians, which was not at firs: cca• templated. In the early stages of that rred,:lero-be , lamented illness, the expense was a great deal na4 than it was now, because the Physicrais were daily in attendance, and the nature of the case require( more unrernitted observation.. It was a little Tr markable, that the very Act which provided the expenses, in its recital, enacted that ail reason. able charges which should be. req_ i;-e:! to deli::: expenses incident to the care of his Majesty's Pe, should be defrayed from the surplus of the I': Purse—(Hear, hear) ;—and yet, inensi,tere 7S may seem now, the very same Act which seem reasonable to burden the Itivy Purse in one iietance should be deemed infamous in another—lifer bear).--If the Act was made answerable 167 t'ax'i 'inconsistency, it was too much, at this distance: eight years, to charge him with originating that • consistency ; that house had applied the saving , 1751 to the contemplated wants of 1752, and the resumed, in some measure, the money they granted ; so closely did they pursue this sum, as ci.t over which they had a dominion, and enacted that tht Commissioners should repay whatever should tx wanting. The expenses which came under the demo urination of reasonable should be charged upon t.:' Privy Purse ; but that House and the Country hen ,already done so much towards ameliorating and rri nistering to the distresses of his Majesty's situation that no candid person could charge them with a wan of zeal. All that had been asked for the Windex Establishment had been granted them, and it was no. asked of his Majesty to deny himself any gratifil tion, but they o n ly d es i re d t h at the proceeds Privy Purse should not accrue for the benefit successor. We had already two Privy Purses; Privy Purse of his Royal Highness the Prince Re ant was still taken in the name and behalf of his Majesty' The Privy Purse, though private property, was to be distinguished from every other species sate property, and surely the advocates of the of Custos, if they meant to designate it as reason able, should impose it according to the spirit Act, upon the surplus of the Privy Purse. A: aim had been made to the probable course wl Court of Equity would have taken, under the circumstances, but he should not hesitate to sa! in the eye of the law, the estate of the lunatic Intidened with his support. It was another tion, to what extent that should be burdened, be should be glad to know from the Noble Lcrd posite before he proceeded further, whether the b' pnnciple that it ought, in the. first instance, burdened at all, would be conceded to him Mama on one of the Ministerial benches, , No!")—He expressed himself a little disappei . ite , *at this should not be liberally con ceded to ' but that should not deter him f rom p r o c eedinl tber; and until he should havelbeen left in a rity in the House, he should think it amounted abandonment of his duty to forego pressing the consideration of the House his opinion of momentous subject. He should, therefore, penpcs 4 two Resolutions : That 1.30,000 a-year be grams the support of the Windsor Estahlishment and, the surplus of the proceeds of the Duchy of Lama ter, together with. the £60,000 vested in the KeePel of the Privy Purse, be ° applied towards defrx the expenses incurred by the care of his Majesty'. son. It was by the course they should pursue on question that the character of the new Parliament was to be judged ; and it was unnecessary to remind them, that at a period like the present, every pos‘tbk rattlOA should be macic to reduce the public oposo of Acts ;:y his di, red to.ite that li t , ate p rlt Vt 'r e , • 2 t.t15 - 41, thei r ; w er d d . Ised the s, was Cl' a prer-i.. led m. 4; bar, ire, shou; ; ;• f the ' in th e , dorm and , the IT -,- ef his . fury cf? 1 a mote Lands if , * epe r of °P o6 es, • care of theta • 50 fa r L tntlemen of tae r. L three C.. agement - .ority; k a scle. their s prtpe rT - of tbc aine2ah' rrembetr bettete!.' that if a,. :e pro: Jeti,titica lat desai de a rah' cits.char 7 , utgoin g of 1:4.21 rhe!...! sees becar:e r• of ry to ar• to 4,9gg subset led ss, zr.d the It first cca 67.:11-to-he• deal Inc,te were dais se requirec I little ye. ovided fa nil renton- deir.:y ta y' 3 Peres the kten: 25 r ch seeme: IC instance T—(llter le 167 th's distance a rag that i? savings u, , and the they ha:: am, as Oa ea that the should • the dean 1 upon tht tuntrr hat ig and mi• situation ith a was c Wiedsa it was no g,ratifica• eds of ear lie& of his es ; for the ice Regent Nlajest. , was so'. ies of pr' the of - :a as reason irit of fa , An alit:. e which the sac' o say, [O. atic woul• ther ques• ened, a . . 0 Lord op• the broad Ice, to he tim ?—tA sa;d7 appointe. to eding f*- 1 • o a I rmo. rated to al irg uP" nt of pr opose ;ranted •C and, tl: 4 if Lanco' le Keeper defraYill esty • sfer* ae on aril 'arliament to rerni 3 d T p pear ost.ibl: o ~r