Star. — London, England, 1816-03-30 00:00:00

li * §‘ r :4 6 . - . hinter had previonly borne to each other. If 20s. was more than stiflicient, he W 45 willing that a smaller bum shoul.l he named, as his object Will to place both articles on the slate footing. The motion was finally agreed to, the House re sumed, and tile Rep.qt of the Committee was order. eJ to be received on Mond ty. On the motion of Mr. GORDON, Accounts of the numher ui Lotteri, s ydlich had been drawn since 1811, and the sums which they had contributed to the Revenue, were ordered to be laid before the House. SEIZURE er CONTRABAND clams. Mr. BROUGHAM had already moved for cer alio Papers respecting the Contraband Goods seized haard the Assiduous Transport. He now wished to n,ove for Papers that might throw further light on tr oietction, which appeared the more important the mare it was iniinired into. Ile moved for tl copy of the Memorial presented to the Lords of she Treasury by the Owners of the Transport, de claratory of their ignorance of Contraband Goods homing been placed on board the Assiduous ; Copies of all Papers, Reports, or other Docu ments, transmitted by Sir II Popham to the B lard • of Customs, respecting the seizure on board of the Assiduous; and A List of the Names of all Persons to whom the p ickages seized were addressed, and the goods which each package was stated to contain. The above Papers were • ordered to be produced. without discussion, with the exception of the last. — On this being moved ter, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought the Paper in question would be returned to one of the orders already made, as it must be among the Papers transmitted to the Cu'stoms. Mr. BROUGHAM admitted this to be • possible, but thus moving for papers, he was necessarily wank lag in the dark, and he therefore moved, in different s'iepes, for every thing likely to furnish information on the subject in question, though at the tisk of hay ing some of the papers twice returned. lii order to ' get at all the facts it would be desirable to examine the owners of the vessel, its Officers and crew. The paper now moved for called for inforniation not be fore particularized. The report - made to the Customs by the seizing officer might not be so mintite as could be wished. It might state the packages to have been directed to persons of distinction without mentioning names. By calling for the names of the parties, should these have been previously omitted, the officer would be necessarily directed to amend his report. He (Mr. Brougham) underitood the packages seized bad all on the outside appeared to be erdnance stores. This broken, an interval appeared. and beyond this a pack age appeared of a very different description from what ought to have been lound there. Instead of rockets and gunpowder, the contraband goods were discovered, addressed to various persons,whose names were concealed till the outer packae: had been broke. The Paper was ordered to be produced. • The Hon. Gentleman then moved for accounts of all searches made, and all seizures effected, in the de pots and storehouses at Woolwich, with copies of the . corresp ,ndence touching the same, Which had passed between the Wards of the Revenue and Treasury ; be also moved for ell seizures made on board the Ordnance yacht at Portsmouth. The Papers were', ordered to be produced. Mr. 13ROUGIIAM said, if the returns were not made to the tfl Jai he bad moved for before Easter, he now gave notice, that an early day after the recess, he should move for the appointment of a Committee, at med with the powers necessary to enquire how the revenue laws had been executed, and how evaded in a certain course of years. There was no other way of getting at the truth, than by examining the parties connected with the Assiduous. The information given in ti;e papers would not of itself be sufficient. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER istquired if the motion of which the Hon. (knifeman had now given notice was intended to supersede that which stood fn. Tuesday next ? Mr. l ROUG H ANL answered in the negative. Mr. BARING moved. that there should be laid before the iiouse a copy of a Treasury warrant, dated on or about the 31st August last. and authorizing an increase in the allowance to officers of quarantine in the service of the Customi, for victualling their men. lie maintained, that this, though apparently an unimportant subject, was of great consequence, as a question of economy. He complained very much of the tirnetakea in producing the papers ordered by the 1-I ai.e. Some papers, which had been moved for by him nearly a fertnight ago, were not yet produced.' As much time was takat, to produce unimportant pa pules, which could he prepared in a few annum:, as tnose that were most important and voluminous. After a new words across the table, from Mr. Ra smus, Mr. BARING, and Mr. Buovounm, the mo. lion was agreed to. TREASURY EXPIMII%. Mr. TIERNEY said that the House, on his mo tion, had stone time ago ordered an account to be laid before it of the distribution of the sum et £BOOO tor the contingent charges of the Lords of the Tree tut y. He expressed the utmost surprize that this accourt had not yet been presented, as he could con ceive no jog cause for the delay. If the account was not to be presented this ni 6 ht, he should 6nd it his duty to submit, a mottos' to the House on the subject. Mr. LUSHINGTON said, that the reason of the delay was, that the explanatory paper which it was necessary to present along with the account could not be drawn up in a short time. The Right Ho nourable Gentleman might rely upon this, that the sccowit would be laid before the House as soon as TIERNEY said it was a strange thing to de tam the Hume for explanatory papers. No papers weie wanted but 'hue which had been ordered. Mr. LUSHINGTON.—It was difficult to draw up the paper in a short time on account of the nature of the expenses. Mt. TIERNEY was resolved to- move that the papers be produced forthwith. This web a question ilot to be trilled with. He knew there were causes which made the Right Honourable Gentleman .. op. pus,ite unwilling to leave the subject brought before t h t House, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer must Kowa - very wyli whit he meant by saying-this. It might require all that Right Honourable Gentle &Mao tritczrity of ClielLaCler LQ CUQVIUCC the House that there was not something wrong at the bottom . of this. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he knew how every part of that sem of money had been expended, and there was not a single trins action iu his official life which he was more ready to explain-( Hear, hear.) Mr. PONSONDY said it was a most eitraordinary thing for the officer whose duty it more Particularly was to see that the papers in question were produced in proper time, should say to the House they were kept back other explanatory papers were ready. This was something perfectly new in Parliament — (Hear, hear). —He appealed to the Chair,. whether it WAS not a new thing to presume to keep: back papers in such a way.? Ile took this opportunity of noticing'the delay in producing papers from Scotland. When this had befo:e been complained of, di,tance was urged as the reason for delay. But as the Mail' arrived in Scotland on the third day, surely ten days was sufficient time to allow, after the order for the production of the papers was issued. Scotland was, talked of as if it were as far off as Canada. If there were any particular circumstances in the case, which rendered it impossible to comply with the order of the House within the ordinary time, it Was a duty to state it to the House. Mr. LUSH INGTON said, that as to the papers ordered from Scotland, he expected to receive them to-morrow morning, and they would be laid before the House as soon as possible. With respect to the observations of the Right Honourable Gentleman on the delay in producing the other papers, he would .isk, whether, in common fairness, there was any thing to deserve them ? After a few words from Mr. BENNETT and Mr METHUEN, in reprobation of the delay in producing papers ordered by the House, Mr. TIERNEY moved, that the above.mentioned account be produced forthwith. The Motion was agreed to. Lord PALMERSTON presented a Return of the number and expenses of the Gener-il and Staff 'Of& cers on service; also of the expenses of the Waggon Train.—Ordered tq lie on the Table, and to be printed. OFFICE ne POST•SIASTER-GENERAL. • Mr. BROUGHAM begged to know from the Right Honourable Gentleman 'opposite, whether Lord Clancarty, during the time that he held the office of Post-Master General, had ever attended at the Post-Office, or transacted any of the business of that department ? No answer was given to this question. Mr. BROUGHA M soon after rose and said, that as no answer had been given to his question, he Would move, That there be laid before the House a re turn of the number of days that Lord Clanearty had attended at the Post-Office as Post-Mastei General, and of the number At papers officially signed by him ; also, the date of his appointment to that office, toge ther with the amount of salary that had been paid to him during the time that he had held it." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the Honourable and Leal tied Gentleman who submitted this motion, very well knew that it was not usual for the Pusl•Master General to take any share in the transaction of the business of that Department. The same return might be moved for as to the other Post. Master General, or as to the Pay-Master General. Th.: only object of the motion in this instance seemed to be, to obtain an answer to the question which the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had put : therefore he would state in an swer, that the Noble Lord alluded to had never at tended officially. After this statement, he hoped the Honourable Gentleman would withelraw his motion. He concluded by moving the previous question. Lord CASTLEREAGH wished the House to understand, that the Nohle Lord alluded to had re ceived no emolument whatever for his services on the Continent—(ilear, hear). —He had continued these services for a long time, and by the ability with which he had executed them, had mainly contributed to those arrangements with respect to Holland which the country had hailed with so much satisfaction. Only the mere actual expenses of his mission had been de -1 fraye , l, and the Noble Lord personally had not re ceived any remuneration whatever ; but had taken gratuitously upon If.mself the duties of an arduous and highly respo..sible situation—(llear, hear.) Mr. LAW understood, from the very best private authority, that Lord Clancarty bad been allowed for the expenses of his mission only the excess of those expenses over and above his private means—(Hear). Mr. ROSE bore testimony that he had never known a man mere zealous and eager in the discharge of his 'public duties than the Noble Lord in question. If such a return was made to the House as that moved for, it might only state, that the Noble Lord had at. tended a certain number of times, whereas he might, , have been actually employed in the discharge of his duties without attending at the Post Office, and when the merely official details were transacted by a clerk. Mr. BROUGHAM said that nothing could' be more sativactory than the explanation which had been made in consequence of his motion ; they were much more satisfactory than if his motion had been ,agreed to. He meant nothing invidious against Lord Clancarty ; an exposition as to the nature of the of fice which he held, was all that he wished. It seemed to him the utmost extravagance to spewd the public money on salaries for offices to which no du ties were attached. In the case now before the House Abe individual who held the office was abroad dis charging other duties, so that it was impossible that he could perform any service to the public, in an office for which he he a large salary. The state ments of the Noble Lord opposite, and the Honotir. able Gentleman (Mr. Law), as to the way in which the expenses of Lord Clancarty': mission had been paid, were very different ; but he was convinced that the Noble Lord's statement was the correct one, and that Lord Clancarty would rather have all the ex• penses of his mission paid, su that the public might have the benefit of his Lordship's abilities and nego ciations for nothing—which, in the case of such an arrangement of a foreign mission, might perhaps be overpaid and in other cases under-paid—(A huigh.) The safest bargain that a foreign Minister could make was to have a carte blanche for sending-his bills to the Treasury. It appeared that Lord Clancarty's whole expenses had been paid, so that in this respect he was as well off as any other foreign Minister. As to the office of Postmaster General it was quite evi dent that it was one of those which the House, in ruirrimennt of its pledge to retrench every sopetfitous expense, ought to abolish entirely. Lord CASTLEREAGH.—The case of: Lord Clancarty's missioa was the same as all the others celled " special missidns," in which it had always heeniuscral to pay all the expenses except those of a personal .nature. The Honourable Gemlorian op p,)-:te represented Lord Clancarty as, enjoying his s Lary. as Postmaster General while abroad, and when it was impossible for him to transact any other of the duties of that office. But it was to be recoLected chat the labour of that Noble Lord while abroad had been, as great or greater than they could rWher wise have been. The attendance at the Post Office was no criterion - by which to judge of the business done by the Postmaster Genera l, as it was not at the o ffi ce that the duties of his office were to be performed. But Lord Clancarty, at the same time that he was Postmaster General, bald a situation in the Board of Trade, to which a most trifling salary was attached ; one totally inideqnate to the laborious and responsible swore the office. It was impossible that the du ties of the Noble Lord's office ire the Board of Trade could be discharged without a salary ey.liti to that of the Postmaster General. Mr. BARING felt it his duty to say, that no per. son bad ever filled the situation held by Lord Clan carry, in the Board of Trade, who performed the duties with so much ability, or gave such general satisfaction. But at the same time it WAS better to attach a proper salary to off ties, the duties of which were imp.irtant. Mr. BROUGHAM objected to the system of re munerating persons who held responsible offices, by giving them other offices in which they had no du- Jim to perform, but received a large salary. He would withdraw his motion. Mr. B4THURST said, that since Mr. Burke's Bill had passed, there was no other way of remune rating persons in such situations unless Parliament would increase the salaries attached to those situa• tions to an amount adequate to the labour and re sponsibility required in thton. Sir J. NEW PORT thought it extremely proper, that Parliament should increase the salaries of useful officers to a proper amount, and totally abolish those that were useless. The sooner they proceeded to do this the better. The motion was then withdrawn. BANK ADVANCZ BM& The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER having moved- the third reading of this Bill, Mr. G REN FELL observed, that neither the Chan cellor of the Exchequer nor the Bank of England bad attempted to deny those facts which he had brought forward, and which were recorded in figures on the Journals of the House. This being the case, he could not allow this Bill to pass without an explanation of the principles i n which he had acted in this question. The Honourable Gentleman then repeated his aigu ments upon the subject, maintaining, that by the ar rangement which he proposed respecting advances by the Bank, and deposits in it, R 240,000 might be saved to the public. By what had already been done by Parliament, the annual sum of rBlOO,OOO was saved to the public. He was glad to hear that an Honourable Friend of his intended to call the atten ' tits) of the House during this Session, to the immense sum paid to the Bank for the management of the National Debt. Among the prospective advantages from the discussions on this subject, he contemplated the particjpation of the public in the profits derived by the Bank from the Restriction Act. Mr. FINLAY thought that the situation in which the public stood with relation to. the Bank of Eng land, was neither more nor less than that of paying a large sum for the management of its own money. It seemed to him, that by the Bill, the public was ex posed to an unnecessary expense of £24.0,000, owing to the amount of the balances of public money re maining in the hands of the Bank, and which ought to be withdrawn. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that at a time when the sum of £6,0v0,000 was required for the public service, the B ank had ad vanced it at a lower rate of interest than it el:old have been obtained in any other way, and a itloout the disadvantage of a pressure on the money niaik.3, but even adding to the circulation. Ia this tianbac tion the sum of £60,000 a-year had been saved to the public. Certain advantages Were secured to the Bank by Acts of Parliament, with references to the amount of balances of the public money in its hands ; but there was nothing in this Bill to prevent any of the public money being withdrawn from the Bank, which could now be withdrawn conformably to Acts of Parliament now in force. Mr. FINLAY explained. Mr. PON SONBY said, that the Bank having great advantages secured to it by Acts of Parliament, it was therefore the duty of - the Chancellor of the Ex chequer to make a better bargain for the public : that the Chancellor of the. Exchequer ought nit to have made the arrangement with the Bank ff , r the advance of £6,000,000 without applying to the House, be cause nothing but the House of Comm.:nil could be a match for the Bank of England in such a case ;' that he was as averse as any man from cluing any thing to injure the stability of the Bank; but, at the same time, he wished the public to have full justice ; that of this £6,100,000, in reality, not one shilling was the property of the Bank ; and that therefore he found it his duty to give a negative to the Bill. Sir JOSEPH YORKE remarked, that if the pro fits of the Bank were so enormous as they were slated to be, it was strange that the proprietors of the Bank did not find ft in the amount of their dividends. Lord FOLKSTONE thought that the Bank of England should be treited, with respect to the UF. nagement of thepublic, 'in the same way as private gentlemen managed with their bankers, whith was by paying a commission for the negotiation of money transactions, and receiving interest on balances left in their hands when they exceeded, a certain sum ; or by having ;heir showy transactions. negociated to nothing, and receiving no interest for any balances in 'the banker's hands. The profits of the Bank were now so enormous, that there were serious grounds to entertain those apprehensions which had been ex preased so long ago as, when the Charter of the Bank bad been granted, that the mcney accumulated by the Bank might amount to such a sum as to.endanger the safety of Government. Mr: P. MOORE thought, that as the amount of the balances in the hands of the Bank were admitted to be to enormous, it would be the duty of the Hotise to grant the stogies for the different departments of Government, deducting from the arnonnt nt t h e els. of England,mates.thestmiost eachremtidlienp.tiigal.sn:ctiltl:a l „rce in the Ent;land. IL: thought the duty of the Cfatot he would consider it a political h,it„, t „ tiedija, the Exeltecuter was to-bring in a 811 in rend ' ava i l. able the balance% in the hinds of the 11.11 k. Mr. MANNING that in lfitx), when th e Charter o! the Bank was renewed, the enaj.ct of the Iprotits which it derived tromp the in:nu:rain! ti t h e rtfatic money had been fully d'sco., s pa s 4mouut sancti met' by Act of P trlistoient.H r tats no ground for the assertion of the I - Inimitabl e G ra .. tleman, that th e bargain made by Grv-rnm-nt a& extravagant. The ?How:ince m u l e to t h e the management of the publ.c debt WAS very nude_ rate. It did not amount to upwarsis of 8330 lion, for the first 1.00 milinns• It wen! on deur aster, and beyond 600 ru Mans it W 45 rcti iced t ; £BOO per million. Sir J. NEWPORT conten.l,d, Om the ClL met r ikw of the Exchtver had not made gond b trg a , n the public. lie WAS C(EIViIICe.I, 110%4701.r, t 'few advantages which he kid obut.•'•%l restiittj fr. In the e,tinti„ns of ia4 Honour-11)1v Friets.l (Mt G.". fell) tat yetir. N-ty, be had tan til4t ac. coma of the present discas.inn, ;be C. •tec , lL r'c ie Ex:le:liter would be a!tit tc pr o cure st ,i i lie t o o t trws from the Lank in hit rizxr citr,r r.. peated the statement alreatly fit r!e on A o .)imer n ii st, that the advance made by the Ij.t L, cuttl,r M t , without interest, consisted of or.l!' three cause that etas wrong-iv represt;n:ed as tof altr,, rt the balances then in the hands or th e .3 4 .,k, it been known that they amoui.ted to six on, 4 3 advance to the saute amount would have 4:II tie. handed and obtained. Mr. NEWMAN regretted sincerely, that it ris not in his power to retain thaas to the el l r of the Exchequer for the bargain whic:, he lull cua. eluded. . The Bill hoeing been read a third time, • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHErEIt, before it should pass, moved as au Antendmoa, at the words In the preamble of the Bill, from list Cie 4th to line the Bth, Whereas the Gortreor a:,d Company of the Bank of England are now pessessed of divers sums of m arising from tie balance of public accounts kept at the Bank," to " and wit. ling, and have agreed to advance," &c. be omitted. Mr. GRENFILL would take the some of the House upon this Amendment. He had iatrnduced those words into the preamble of the Bitl when toe Report of the Committee had been brought up, attar having shetvn them to the Chancellor of the Escs.e. quer, who had said that he did nor °hitt to tient, but advised hint to apply to the G ivertior of the Bank. That he had done, and the Governor had es. pressed no objection to them. The only remark which he had made was, that the amendment Would cut both ways. He had censeepontly bro•aglit it,V• fore the House ; the governor or the ilia hal re. tired before the sulsj:ct had come on, and IL witu:ds had been adopted without air oppoiitior. But now, after having had a communication with the &wirier of the Bank, the Como ilor of the Excliecuer mewed that they should he rescinded. I' Ice persisted in that motion, he would lower the d;gnity of .the °Le which he Oiled, and would degrade the House. Mr. MELLISH stated, that wheo the Honour able Gentkman had given him_ a copy'of hi% intro: ded Amendment : he had repressed a strong et.y.o. tion. He Fad taken it home, lirwever, opt that the Biil would Come on that aig!o. Salaried at finding it introduced into the pre treble el he Bill, he had been informed by the Hiniourabie Geralonsit that the Chancellor of the Eschzquer had nothj , :c. tion to it, provided he should considt the G' veva of the Bank. By the Chancellor of the Exheior, on the other hand, he was esstired that he (itieCh.n. cellar of the Excht.oier) had tindeistoad fioin the Honourable Gentleman that the Governor of :i.e Batik had no olikction to the i:: set tinn ul tho•i- H. complained of thear because they gavoiciexpante view of the qie - otion. Mr. I'ONSO , IV,Y called upon every Gentleman in the House. ar.d-e‘pecially upon the indve idrt;t Country Members, to state whether be was net rio t t in what he had said, that the C iencellor eef Er. ch-quer wos no match with the Bank of nolaiel .n waking a loargoin.—(dear, hear.) Alter ha ; vAig agreed to.the insertica of certain words in thereeno ble of the Bill, betauie he found they were not agree. able to the Governor cf . the Beak of England, whom lie rather seemed to - treat as the Governor of des Country, he came to the House anal asked that they should be expunged I Was net this a proof of the ondue itifluence which the Bank exercised over lam ? He hoped the House would not disgrace themselves by expunging those words.- Mr. MELLISH explained. Mr. BARING thought the torte of indignation c( his Honourable Friend misel.c.d. The BiA was merely for carrying into effect a bargain betaro - ti the Governmeot and the Kink ; and why should any ahum be felt at it; beh:l seat:.: in a mantel silo. factory to the parties concerned in it. He theat o ht the Governor of the Bank ins:died in objecting to the words in question as a patty statement. It inserter, then the same reivilege sheuld he ailooed to Co Bank to state its ow it case also in the preamble. Mr. ROSE was c mfirmed by what now took place in act opinion he had long eatertained, ['rat long preambles were ve r y bad things. If a war ot welds wete to be allowed, however, it should bit equally fair on both sides: Mr. TLE It NEY regretted the delay which the re sent discussion occasioned in mere important bow ness. He contended, that since the substance was given up to the Beak, a declaration of it might . at least IR: suffered *to appear in the.. p r e amble. las Chancellor of the Excaitteeer,• with "his usual gem , - breeding, agreed to it ; bin do hard-hearted Gera nor of ti:e Bank would not allow it, and wished to make it appear that the advance was one of me re ert nerosity and public spirit on the part of tl.c Bank ; so that,. although by a clause. in the Bill Paillarnoit was. to be bound to leave the balances in the hands of the Bank, yet the fact was not permitted to be stated 'without any inference in the preamble. Tliis was a little frivolous cavil on the part of the Ban k • which would yield them no other•advantage than to :thew the superiority which they possessed over ale Unfortunate and good-natured Chancellor of the Et. chequer. Lord CASTLEREAGH considered, that 4. r o ; su sh an 4 ki