Star. — London, England, 1809-04-26 00:00:00

Ir PARLIAMENIWRr PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, APRIL 25. The Local Nlilitia Act Amendment Bill and Navy Cornpas- Ormate Bill were received from the Common., and read a first time. Lord AUCKLAND gave notice that he should bring forward his rrlrosition relative to Divorces on Tuesday next ; for which fay the House was ordered to be sunimobed. Lord SELKIRK gave rotice of 3 motion for to-morrow, for certain papers which, he said, had been laid before the House of Cotiumms, but were not yet on their Lordships' table. Lord BUCKINGHAMSHIRE gave notice that he should, on 'Friday next, submit a nice ion relative to the Appointment of the Regency in Portugal.—Adjourned. upon the subject was—a party wanted a sum of money, but the other party were to give a seat, and this money was to go in that sort of negociation.—Q. Was the sum.of money to go to procure any ap pointment under the East India Company ? A. Yes, in one shape, but thereat -was to be given to those who could get that appointment made.—Q. Was a wri tership to be procured by the sum of money to be so given ? A. Not without getting a seat as a remunera tion for the Writership, which did not take place, and • on it, he thought it would be impossible tor the House the - Company, and one-third to the informer ; rd not to agree to it ; for were it otherwise, he did not such Director is rendered incapable of holding any see how any delinquency could hereafter receive cen- place whatever under the Company. 1 Now, ' said sure, if this were passed over. The evidence of Lord Lord A. Hamilton, ~ I contend, that the above re= 1 Clancarty, he said, was equally important and forci- gulations are as much in force against the patronage ble with that of the Noble Lord opposite to him, and df the Noble Lord, as President of the Board of Con went exactly to the same point. He would now, troul. which, I insist, he had no right to dispose of, therefore, request the attention of the House to such as they could possibly be in regard to the patronage. other parts of the evidence as appeared to him to bear of Directors."—What then would the House think of most strongly on the case. The evidence of Mr.. this attack on its purity, and disregard of its Consti- Reding was very long, and he did not think it neces- tutiow and of its rules, when they saw that the high sary to go into it further than would be requisite to and important office which the Noble Lord had held lead to two or three observations and comments so long, had been made an instrument for the worst which he deemed to be due to it. Reding was asked of purposes ; and that, directly in the teeth of an Act what conversation he had with Mr. Davies upon the of Parliament, as well as of a Bye Law of the East subject ? A. The conversation I had with Mr. Davies India Company ?—He confessed he should be sorry to mention the name of any other person who had been concerned in this transaction further than was absolutely necessary, in order to shew it in its true point of view. He woad ask, therefore, if it could be supposed possible that Lord Clancarty could have deceived the Noble Lord on the opposite side of the House. He ( LordA. Hamilton) believed he could not have done so—but if he had so deceived the Noble Lord, he must have still connived at the transaction. " I am hapr " said Lord A. Hamilton, "to see the }IYY , Noble Lord indignant at this mention of the transac tion, but he would have done well to have shewn it before the evidence had been .produced." But when it was recollected that he was President of the Board of Controul for so many years—that Lord Clancarty was a Member of the same Board—and that Reding, a party to the transaction, had never excited that in dignation till his refusal to discover the parties, he thought those - feelings of indignation had been very tardy in shewing themselves. He did not wish to be hard upon the Noble Lord opposite him, but he really thought that merely reading the evidence must obtain Ire den;ect then that this cliate, whetter ri it. wrong, proved or falsified, could by any art el o i ever be considered as connected with or sin from, his official situation. Whether he had I) ee ,'' 'erroneous or not, still his error did not spring from a ;desire to exert his patronage as a Minister, f •er ote p ee pose of exercising his influence in the House of C„ It .. mons. He had fairly and frankly laid before the lect Committee a full and general view of his E. 1 .,;_ India Patronage ; and in no other instance thee th e present could even the shadow of a n a t tempt part be inferred to exert that influence for a priliCeil purpose. Another aggravation, as stated by o, c Noble Lord, he wished to combat, and which I , ee, his feelings much. This was, that he had iteei his office a general disposition towards trafficki ng _ Now, no such thing as this could potsibly infoled from the evidence ; and on a consideration of that. 't would. plainly appear, that neitlitr he nor Lord C;, warty ever had an idea of exerting official for the purpose of facilitating the acquisitio n c i, seat in that House. If he wished, indeed, re . mote his parliamentary views by elicial paeer,: ee it was possible that some opportunity migh t Which he might use it to advantage, but he nevce; ;e l No ; and in the present instince, all lie undere ee , was, that an individual wished to return either hie. self (Lord Castlereagh) or his friend, and the. a Noble Marquis wished for an Indian appointme t for some of his acquaintances. Ile felt fully opri to all the comments which the Noble Lord had chieel to make upon the transaction ; andcrud person crud regret more deeply any connection with sucia man as Mr. Reding had proved to be, than l' did. Indeed, until this transaction, he did not kae.,7 that there existed in cocie:y such a character as a lief ficking broker (a lairdi, and an expression indirnatin from Lord Milton). 4. He eertaiiily did not, and Ce :e tlemen might impute it to want of penetralien 015 his part, if they chose ; but such was the fict. could not help, however, remarking the cool delis:- rative temper in which the Noble Lord seemed ei have come to the discussion. (Thee, hear ! from lif— nistrrs.) He wished to faciliate the election ( f hi: ftiend (Lord Claticartl) to a seat in Parlianant, are! Mr. Reding came to him ti' mike a conimiec:eie t on the subject. He understood him to come )- reee i f as a gentleman, and made a mere simple answer ) his questions. The only occasion on which Mr. R. ding and he had any interview, was when lie eitei to be informed who the member was \vim retire. He before that had never seen Reding. did he know what there could appear in his politieil conduct to induce such a person to make an approach to him on such a design. One thing he war p er: tin of, and that was, that it never occurred either t.) hine self or to Lord 'Clancarty to make use of otli6alsoa. V tronage to forward their wishes. For his own nart, he could not be suspected of having any advantage to seek for himself individually on the occasion. AU he wanted was, to get his p:ivato. friend Lord Clan carty into Parliament, and this he particularly wished, kaosving, as he - did, the useful talents for business which his Lordship possessed. He could not heir expressing his surprise that the Noble Lord would for a moment imagine, that with this transae:ion any pecuniary concern was blended. There was no thing surely, either in his character, or that of friend, which could countenance such a suppostion. The only occasion on which such a turpitude was ac cidentally manifested, it was treated with prop disdain. But had the evidence been carefully pe rused, such an idea would have appeared ridiculous, for he reserved to himself the right of withholdinv, the writership from first to last, until he saw that s pure and properly-recommended person was fixed on to be promoted to it. He was as ready as any man possibly could be to admit the baseness of Reding, het then he had not even any conversation withhini, except tlrat which he had before stated, from the beginning, until, on the termination of the transaction, Lord Clancarty had signified to him to fill up the vacant writership, as he had originally intended. Lord Clancarty withdrew his interference, when he found 'that Reding wished to withhold from him the name of the,Member who desired to retire from his seat in Parliament, and thus the connection terminated. — No idea was ever entertained of making a writer ship a general exchange for a seat in that House.-- ' The Noble Lord had introduced another person, Mr. ' Davies, on whom he dwelt as a person of great im portance. All he could say was, that he never saw Mr. Davies in .his life, although Mr. Davies had cho sen to say he called on him at his office in Downing street. if Mr. Davies had given his name to the ',porter, he certainly might very' innocently have desired him to walk in ; imagining . perhaps that it was a Mr. Davies of that House, with whom he v.-as on terms of intimacy. He had received a letter from `this Mr. Davies, which letter he immediately com municated to the Chairman of the Select Committee, and which letter, it ought to be observed, did rot refer to the writership now in question, but to an ther belonging to the Board of Controul. He. did this in order that Mr. Davies might be called for cs amination before the Committee, and this was all Le knew about him. Indeed he was as ignorant what sort of man he was as he was of Mr. Reding. To,' writership,'however, neither of them, or any one eh! could obtain unduly, as he ( Lord Castlereagh) new: let itigoout of his reach, And was determined to keei . , it within his reach, until he was thoroughly acquaii.- ted with the character of the person who might i. proposed to fill it. The Noble Lord, howeve.r, s e,;:7:• ed to think that he was to be particularly blamed 1: cause he happened to be President of the Board • Controul. This was founded on the notion, perhai that particular patronage was attadied to that sia:a tion ; but he could not see what the policy could of excluding all the Executive Government from sec.: patronage. Cases indeed did exist, in which the law, wisely broke down the mass of patronage, by extend ing it chiefly to the Directors ; yet, in his opinion. the small patronage given to the Board of Controul, or to the President of that Board, could riot be icten ded with anyvery bad constitutional effects. The Prcsi dent was, undoubtedly, responsible for. the exeriica of his patronage, but he thought it. would be a littie hard to press him down with greater responsibiiiti because he happened to be Pr..sident. He delivered those opinions freely, and he had delivered his opi-. nions freely before the Select Committee, heedless of consequences. He had not come before that Com mittee bound to official secrecy, and sooner th." makelhat excuse, he hat chosen to incur the pcio' nalsesponsibiLity to which the evidence m HOUSE OF COMMONS. The Bastardy Bill went through a Committee, the Report of which a as ordered to be received on Thursday. The Committee un the Irish Recognizance Bill was postponed il Monday. On the Motion of Mr. ROSE, the Order of the Day for read ing the Woollen Manufacture Repeal and Amendment Bill a se cond time on Friday next was discharged, and a fresh order made for Tuesday. Mr. 1-lIHKISSON brought in a Dill to empower the Chief Commissioners ot 'Customs, &c. in the Vest Indies, to take exa •minatiors upon oath. The Bill v....is rcasl a first, and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow. Mr. WHARTON brtml;ht up the Report of the Committee of i t died away. supply. His Lordship then said, there was one other per- Aft Lt. a r. conversation between Mr. Wurmiß n aid Lord ClisT r..triii, reTecting the situation of the colony of son whom he must introduce to the notice of the N -w South Wale., the Resolutions were agreed to. House, and it was not the smallest part of his regret Sr: J. NEW PORT' brow,tht in a Bill for more t frectually pre- that such third person was a Peer of the Realm.— v, ming the erntieulentent of money, or securities for money, by w e suppose his Lordship alluded to the late Mar- Collectors or tteceivcrs in irti.vid.—Rea..l a first, and order. d :o be read a second time to-morrow se'nnight, and to he printed. quis of Sligo, whose name is particularly alluded to In a Committee o'i Martinique Produce it was resolved, on in Reding's evidence, as the person who had the seat • e motion cf NI:. ROSE, that the Chairman should be instruct, d ill Parliament to dispose of.) —What then, continued • t , move for leave to bring in a Bill to allow the importation of Celt produce, on the payment of similar dutit sto tlmse already he, would signify the Bill of the Chancellor of the impose:. on the produrt• of other forsign plantations.—The report Exchequer, now on its passage through the Hesse ? was okaered to be received to-morrow. Of what signification would be the annual resolution antsc or earaosasosa Lord A. HAMILTON said, that in rising to state his reasons for now bringing forward the motion of which he had given notice respecting a Noble Lord, it was, he believed, scarcely necessary to preface it with many observations ; but that he might not lead any one into an error on the subject, he would as con cisely as possible proceed to state what it was he in tended to move, and if he should in so doing take any step which•might be supposed at all contrary to the rules and practice of the House, he should doubt less be corrected and set right. He believed it was not against any rule of that House to move a censure against a Member of it, and as in the present instance it was his intention to ground his motion on the evi dence which had come out before a Committee ap pointed by the House to inquire into the existence of abuses in the disposal of India Patronage, he should in the first place move that the evidence be read ; after syl4eli, he should submit to the consideration of the House a resolution of censure on the conduct of the Noble Lord opposite to him (Lord Castlereagh). He begged the Noble Lord and the House to believe his assnrance, that in bringing forward the present motion, he had no personal animosity or hostility to the Noble Lord, except in what related to his official character, and the manner in which it was his opinion the Noble Lord had so greatly misconducted himself. There was one remark, and one only, that he would make respecting himself, viz. his reason for under taking to bring forward this motion. It would rea dily be in the recollection of the House, that from his first having the honour of a seat in it, he had ap peared, perhaps, more forward than many others, in bringing under their attention and consideration, de linquency of every Lied which came to his knew_ ledge. He thought, therefore, he should be repre hensible in the highest degree, if he had been at all backward on the present occasion, which vretek him, on the first view of it, as of more than common mag nitude. About two years ago, he had taken a very strenuous part in endeavouring to bring to light the mai-practices of Mr. Alexander Davison, in the se cret and hidden causes and practices of corruption ; and it had at all times been his first wish and desire, to expose and lay open such base proceedings to the• indigisation and reprobation of the House. Having heretofore done this in several instances, he thought it a duty peculiarly incumbent on him to bring forward the present motion ; for of all the functions belong ing to Members of that House, it was highly neces— sary they should act in such a manner as to preserve a character of respect for themselves, the first body of men in the kingdom, as representing the whole of the people. In doing this, he meant strictly to con fine himself to the evidence; he meant not to make any charge against the Noble Lord but what is ac tually contained in the evidence before the House, and in the confession of the Noble Lord opposite to him. It seemed to him therefore, at first, that nothing more would be.necessary than to read the evidence ; but when he reflected on the respect which was due to the House, he conceived that it would be more seemiy in him to make a few comments and observa tions on the whole transaction as he gradually deve loped it, and he thought he had every reason to be lieve the result would be, that the House would show that they were not any party to the transaction. —lt appeared to him to be necessary to state in the first place what he thought the nature of the case. In Ole rear I aoa the Noble Lord received a letter front a Mr. Reding, an entire stranger, and offering, he be lieved, a seat in Parliament. He (Lord A. Hamil ton) should have thought that when such an offer had been male, it would instantly have induced the Noble Lord opposite to him to bring the person so fr oaenen,.., to as speedy puni s hm ent as p oss ibl e ; i n - I stead of which it would be found that the Noble Lord told Mr. Reding " he did not want a seat in Parlia ment for himself, but a friend of his did." The ob ject of Reding was not to offer a seat in Parliament for money, but for a writership ; and the charge against the Noble Lord was, t h at h e h a d d i sposedof his patronage of a writership to Lord Clancarty, to iubtain thereby a scat in Parliament. It. appeared -from the evidence of Lord Clancarty, that having mentioned die circumstance that the seat could not be obtained but for a writership, are ( Lord Castle reagh) told him that he had a writership undisposed ct, to which he would be happy to give him (Lord Clancarty) the recommendation. And on the examiaa lion of the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) before the Com mittee, he confessed " that he was induced to place a writership at Lord Ciancarty's disposal, and that the impressioa under which he did it was, that Lord Clancartv's coming into Parliament might thereby be f ac ilitated " Lord A. Hamilton said, that if he were s o miloit that single resolution, and move a Leasure of that House against corruption ? How wes it pos- the Censure he should movefor—but, out of respect to sible that any Administratioe, or that House, should the House, he had deemed it more decorous to preface hereafter expectany future delinquency, proved against it with the eommentshehacl made, and should still make the smaller classes of society, should be punished by on it. He would now beg leave to call the attention of them, when two persons, one a Member of that the House to a feature of the transaction which carried House, another late a Member of the Board of with it a feature of disdain. In page 61 of the evi- Controul, and the third a Peer of the Realm, dence Mr. G. Davies was examined. There had been should, in this clear and unquestionable manner, have some correspondence, and the Noble Lord's mince been proved guilty of so gross a violation of the rules stood opposite to it. A Mrs. Groves was a party to and constitution of the House, and that they should the transaction about the Writership, and Davies, in suffer it to pass without their strong and marked re- his examination said, tbat Reding was employed by probation ? For his own part, he did not affect to her to go to a Peeress, and he conceived that name have a greater sensibility on this subject than any was mentioned in a confidential way to him, and he other individual Member, but he thought it was to- was not at liberty to impart it. tally impossible for the House to pass it by. He Q. Have you ever written about it to anybody ? I believe I did, could not but notice a variety ,of situations in which to her Lord.—Q. Do you believe that the transaction was to take the Noble Lord had been placed, which should have Place through that Lady? A. Mrs. Groves assured me that was the Mrs ca o se r - o — v Q. Did t i lk d ir t i h nsaction take race ? .A. n ,‘d deterred him from embarking in this unfortunate Certainly . not ; —Q. Who was' transaction. The Noble Lord must, as a Member of and that it was es !Board of COn w troul as a ap c p:L ig t e me i nt. Parliament, have concurred in the various censures at the head of the Board of Cowtroul at that time ? A. I don't that have taken place since the Noble Lord had a know.—Q. Did she not mention by whom it was to be given to Castlereagh A Noble the Viscount en wanstiomeednlon mentioned. .t o me.—Q. He seat in it, some of them for offences of the very same z4 o ,a u s r l i r i o e r n d d ? complexion, and which one would suppose must at Q. W as not L or d Castlereagilt r th so e person to whim you wr s ete, the moment have suggested themselves to his recol- communicating these circumstances? A. He was.—Q. How long lection. The Noble Lord was also a servant of the ago was that transaction ?A. It was in the beginning of 1806 ;it Crown, had long been so, and as such it. was his wasredat for e i mo N m v ent of the change of Administration that she rortice is Downing-street, w w n r i o n t g e it t o r e ld e s t Lordship, and I bounden duty to protect and defend not only the c ap arla l t his cd he ao reg ar este d d me day.—n. House, of which he was a Member, but the Govern- Did you see him ? A. No, he was at the Council, and 1 r 4 e ) e . eived ment, of which he was a confidential servant, from a note the next day, acknowledging the receipt of it, and request every attempt and attack of the hydra corruption.— ing I would . explain every thing, so that the party who had made If, however, there could be one circumstance attend- u e s e e ti o ? f hA.sNona•msoe fa sh r o fro uld m b th e at de h tec is a te e d rv — an i t 2 dt D ii i v d er h e e d t d o ec m li e nc i i ia se eo ei l i t i l g ing this transaction that was more aggravating than plitnents, and desired that I would call at his house in Downing the rest, it was his holding at the moment the office stress, and if he was not there, to grim the Mouse of Commons ? of President of the Board of Controul, whose pecu- Q. You have not seen him ? A. No, I have not. liar duty it was to check and crush every corruption Here then was a declaration of the Noble Lord of which came within the scope of his high situation, in- his indignation ; but was this declaration genuine, stead of which he had been proved, even from his sincere, and honest ? It must be recollected, that all own mouth, to have abused the trust and confidence this took place suleeauent to breaking off the negotia placed in him, and to have violated them in the ! tion. Was it poteile the House could give the Noble highest degree. It was said that the Noble Lord had I Lord credit for his feelings on this subject, so long given in to the Committee, on oath, a list of his pa- . after the transaction had taken place ? Could any one tronage, as President of the Board of Controul, and I believe he was actuated by any desire to reprobate the particular itistances in which it had been used.— Ithe practice ? For his own part, he did not believe He ( Lord A. Hamilton) was altogether at a loss to ' any such thing, but he believed his motive was to en discover by what law or usage the Noble Lord, as deavour to prevent its being exposed. He had troubled. the President of the B6ard of Controul, could have 1 the House at more length than he intended, but the any patronage at all. There was a clause in the Act importance of the subject made it necessary. He which appointed and formed that Board, very nearly would not, however, trespass flirther than to move, prohibiting that • and yet the Noble. Lord had not 44 That the Minutes of evidence be.read." only disposed oepatronage, but he had done so in the The SPEA KER having stated to the House the most reprehensible manner, in a way which called usual routine of its proceeding on motions of the pre loudly for a double degree of censure. If, however, the sent nature, from the time of Sir Robert Walpole Noble Lord would contend that his patronage Was le- I down to this day, gal, he was nevertheless subject, most unquestionably, Lord CASTLEREACH began by expressing his to all the regulations, rules, and restrictions inciderit sincere regret that any act of his, or rather he should to the Directors of the East India Company.-1 say in the present case, any.intentiou could be deem- He (Lord A. Hamilton) would be sorry to state any l ed such as to call for Parliamentary Inquiry. He thing on the present occasion that was not founded in ! particularly lamented that they should be called upon truth and justice, but every man was liable to error to express their opinions upon the propriety or im and misinformation, and if he was incorrect, he hop- l propriety of his conduct, in any point of view in ed some one better informed would do him the favour which the chatacter or authority of that House to set him right. If, however, he was correct, the I might be considered interested, or in which he might Noble Lord's conduct must appear in a still more be supposed to have overstepped the boundaries heinous light. It could scarcely have escaped the of his official duty. If, in the course of the pre observation of the Noble Lord, and if it did, he sent investigation, any error of his . was made appa (Lord A. Hamilton) thought it must have occurred rent, he hoped the House would see that such au to him iu the conversation with Lord Clancarty,that error was rather to be imputed to accident than de when he spoke of the person to whom that particular sign. He trusted, that whatever might be the se patronage was to be given, the Noble Lord told Lord verity with which such investigation might be carried Clancarty, that the person to be so appointed must on, that no person would be able, at the conclusion be such, in point of character, as the Court of Direc- 1 of it, to point out any corrupt motive, by which his tors were entitled to expect to be placed in their eer- conduct had been actuated. Serious as the situation vice, in consequence of any eomination they had in which he stood was, he could assure the House, placed at his Lordship's disposal. How then the, that in the line of defence which he meant to adopt, Noble Lord could permit that patronage to be dispo..l he would strictly abstain from lending his sanction to sed of in the way the Noble Lord had shown himself . any principles, by which its authority might be ulti ready and willing to dispose of it, he (Lord A. Ha- ! mately affected. He, in the outset, returned thanks milton) confessed he was at a loss to account for. In Ito the Noble Lord who had brought this question page 7, of the Report of the Committee, it. appeared ! before the House, for having stated so fully his view that the attentioal both of the Legislature and of the ' of the question, before he came to his final explana- East India denpany had, at various periods, been at- ' tion. There was no degree to which the charge ceuld tracted to abuses which were supposed to eiist in the ' be extended, which he did not wish to hear and meet disposal of their patronage, in consequence of which, at' —and on this account he felt 4 ratified at the full ex the time when their charter was renewed, an oath was planation which had been given of it. While he framed to be taken by each Director, within ten days said thus anuch on the subject, and added also, that a fterhiselection,eonteining,amongetherengagements, he would be the very last to complain of any high the following :eI do swear, that 1 will not, directly or colouring which might be given to the accusation, indirectly,acceptor take any perquisite, emolument,fee, still he felt himself bound to say, thet many aggrava preseneor reward, upon any accountwhatsoever,or any : tions of it had been stated which he must utterly dis promise or engagement for any perquisite, &c. for or . claim. In the first place, he denied that any convic in respect of the appointment or nomination of any tion could take place, as proceeding from his own person or persons to any place or office in the .gift or evidence, and that his evidence before the Committee appointment of the said Company, or of me, as a ' went even in the very teeth of the declaration of others Director thereof, &c." 33 Geo. 111. c. 52. sec. 160. !as quoted by the Noble Lord. He hoped the House In the Bye Laws of the East India Company, ch. 6. would indulge him with a patient hearing, when at sec. 5, a penalty is imposed on every Director taking tempting to destroy many other aggravations, which any reward on account of any appointment, in double in his mind, had been stated, before he came to the the amount of such reward, two-thirdsiof which w i ease itself, white lay withia a, very narrow compass.