Star. — London, England, 1819-12-17 00:00:00

'jr.:o Owen, though he did not know him per. ,r. Ile was disposed to believe all that he hid l'of the good effects of the system carried on at L a nark. He had visited that establishment y ea rs ago, before it was under the controul of and he then had reason to admire the , Nn which it was conducted. Since that time heard much of its improvements, and he was 3:,posed to credit their existence in. all the ex eel In the year 1817, Mr. Owen develcilied !ails of his Plan before two pUblic ttteetings.. the statement whichthat Gentleman had - Made t hoq: occasions, he would read a few extracts; ; •lie happened to be in error, as to any -partial te bad the pleasure to know that he might be ;; ,.•J by an llonourable Alderman then in the who happened to be present at those meet- At the first meeting, on the 6th of August, Mr. ()wen's Resoluticm . s.were superseded by eal concuirence of the Meeting: But he more particularly to call the attention olthe to the sentiments of Mr. Owen as contained speech upon that occasion. Here the. Right arable Gentleman read several extracts from lwen's Address, in which he declared that hii :was to relieve the world from the gross moral ;l a which they were involvedthat eery reli %Mich had till then prevailed was founded upon; I am not," said he, 6, of your religion, nor belong to any religion that was ever yet thouglit Now, it was not Isis (the Chancellor of the EY refs) intention to call down persecutions upon, hvca for his hostility to the-religion which we all unanimous in upholding. He belieeed . Gentleman .to be as sincerely attached to the ire of the world as he professed to be, but. be said, that the present system of law and oil was a curse to the country—that under a system it was impossible we could be —and that without a complete' change in ral and political condition, every hope of ..rernent was at an end. When he said all was it not evident that he intended by his new to do away with all our institutions at once ? however visionary and absurd his speculation be, it would be impossible for theilouse to ienilutions for an inquiry into such a Plan, at, in some measure, giving a sanction to those tctive speculations. But to return to the meet -1817 ; it appeared that the Woolly Aldermaa ;tom he had alluded, 'prepared certain Resolu in substitution of those of Mr. Owen, which d to. Those Resolutions stated; that ne could be eipected from any flanit l hich was articled upon, or connected witb,• a Reform in resentation of the People- 7 (4 laugh).—So ipon that occasion, as well as upon many others, ;rand remedy for nil evils was Universal, Suf tad Annual Parliaments. lie should be sorry thai a formal rejection, by that • House, of Plan,• should infftlente individuals to re ly- practicable part If it.' It . .would be still iii racer of Mr. Owen to hive . parts of his Plan d into effect by private indiestheakesits well as :blic bodies—the Agritultutid - Wipe - for - his. N There was one thing, at all - events, - safe.. evident, that Mr. Owen's Plawaleact not met the general approbation of tire country.- • A iption was opened for carrying his Plan into but even in this Mttropolis, the seat of un led wealth and liberality, the contributions have -y inconsiderable. In this absence Of encou tent, under such circumstances, there liasprima rridence against. the Plan—(Year; heir), - He admitted the justice of all that had' been said ier of Mr. Owen's 'private eharactti t t ,hilt be tt conscientiously content to trhireDriate. any . the public money , or give a vsity flttr P4rlia , sanction towards the effrctint 'bra "lasi ,was founded in an opposition to ail the bitti itc of the country. • . Mt. 30/1N SMYTH sajd,'he had 140; icqttain- Jsally with Mr. Owen,. for many. years,'and revel him to be one of the most beheiblent of Allbeings. He always regretted that. Mr: Owen dd have taken the view he didon,the subject of ion. He 'even told that GeothtTean, before he forward with the deielopement of his Plan, a declaration of his sentiments open the subject 21i7ion would serve only to unite the whole coon against him. But he wished to know, was it be a 31r. Owen had formed a different opihion upon subject of religion, from most other men, that Plan should be utterly . rtected ? This was t:nr incident to human kmd; and, upon Mr.. s own principles, it deserved the pity of his ...creatures. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, tr prom 'tieing an enemy to the Motion on account to religious objection, wa t e r s Minister of the '!y, to exert himself to . it. Ile had for years admired Mr. Owen—be never saw so ht.:lcrolence, so little prejudice and self,inte to much devotion to the welfare of his fellow as that Gentleman possessed. There was extraordinary fact connected with Mr. Owen's 'that should weigh. deeply on the House. In his d:irhment at Lanark, such were the effects of iyA...rn there, that for fourteen years there was 4 stltt 6 le instance of an individual belonging to 4 1 1:ig been committed .by a Magistrate, on a i , l any sort—(Hear, hear).-11ea wished to cir where was the Institution or Association, of `rare number of individuals, of which a similar be made ?—(Hear, hear).—Was it not much to say, that the person who had ac all these miracles, was not entitled to inquired into, merely because his opi- L.,,n 1 the subject of religion were peculiar add I r"Yer ? Nlr. Owen had had the Merit of bring . r ther an association of children of the ages of re to five years. He (Mr. Smyth). saw these at New Lanark. Mr. Owen, by the system : 4 h lie c ., tablished there, had almost extirpated' • 1 - 1. ..Ae disagreeable passions which every father ';'r were incident to the state of children. No one tl:e Establishment could see a boy be to it, without wishing that he had a son edit- 1 the same manner; at least such was his,own I‘ . ~ . , nri respect to the resource there was in that priyate individual;, or the Board 1 , '..culture would take up the Plan, in case of of Parliament to inquireinte it, he can d lie did not think that any grist hopes cOO I .I,teltaived about it. The support otindividtials, the Board of Agriculture, would carry very wsit;ht with it. If the . Couunittee were at • , pointed, they it!otdd iati info consicieratiop the 0- sent state of the pciptilitiOn 'of the country—ilfear, liter).—Now, he would ask, were Ministers prepared to bring forward any plan for the ameliorition of the distresses of the country ? If they were not, they ought to assent to,the appointment of a Corn rnitte. • Something or other must be done, and it would -be vise of Parliament to consent to an in quiry, sad hot wait until they were afraid to refuse it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in explanation, said th er e was a not i ce on t h e i r b oo k s .Which would bring that matter in a more eligible form before them, and he should then state his send " ents, As for his objection to the motion, the Hon. . Member misunderstood him; it was not on account of Mr. Owen's religious opinions, hut because his Plan was founded on the basis of no religion, and led to the conclusions declared in his speech. Mr.. RICARDO said he was at war with Mr. Owen 's speculative Plan, as not founded on sound principles of political economy. He denied that Machinery could ever do mischief. It was true that in particular branches it might produce too much of a commodity, cotton or cloth for , example, but the moment that was felt, it would be withdrawn from that and employed in other ways. But Mr. (wen, the enemy to machinery, yet wished to introduce a new machinery of greater power...He would introdute the human arm. Though lie differed so much from 'this Gentleman, he was for appointing the Commit tee, were it only to ascertain if true that spade hes- Asandry was much more productive than any other. This was a question of the utmost importance, as the greatest desi6ratum of the present time was to supply a demand for labour. He was no friend to dividing the country into parallelograms, according to Mr. Ovren's proposition, nor to a community of - goods. Every man should be independent and work for himself, in which he was likely to do most, and :was at the same time equally working for the corn- Imunity. He expressed his agreement with Mr. Brougham on the question of population, and argued that the only remedy for the distress thus occasioned, was to be found in an increase of capital. Gentle men seemed to have a very erroneous notion when they- called out for employment, merely employment, for the poor. Employment was nothing, and could do nothing, unless it was founded on an augmenta tion of capital. It was otherwise only exchanging one evil for another, by withdrawing the funds to create work from where they were In • operation giving work. On the subject of our distresses there were, he thought, some evils for which Government was not to blame. The great cause might be disco. vered in the natural state of the country, with a great capital, a great population, and a limited soil. The consequence of this was a lowness of profits, and ,wherever the profits were low, the capital would have a tendency to seek countries where they were higher. If these 'countries, by a wise_system of Government, auperadded security to the other inducements, capi talists would more readily overcome their repug nance to have.their property not under their own eye. When capital was diminished, the poor neces sarily got out of employment, and great distress en sued. These were natural causes of distress, which no man on earth could controul. But had we riot added artificial causes to these? Did not even'our Corn Laws, by rendering wages high and profits consequently low, increase the inclination for capital to leave the country, while the same laws hurt our competition with foreigners? The same arguments applied to our commercial restrictions. The prohi bitions on foreign commodities made those things . I dear which we might otherwise purchase cheap ; and this was done in retaliation ; but he contended.that We ought alWays to. be allowed to go to the cheapest market, as by this means our capital would be im proved.. The National Debt—that system of bet.- rowing at compound interest—and accumulation of taxes, was another great cause of deterioration. The taxes were so enormous. that.it became a question with many, whether they should quit the country and enjoy the capital they had realized, in another ? In these various ways, the sources which would give employment to the population were diminished and dried up. Last year they had adopted a judicious course to remedy this evil in part, by agreeing to return to payment in specie. It was wise not to do so at once, but to devote two or three years to the change. They ought to do the same with the Corn Laws, and return by degrees to a good system, which should leave us unfettered in our purchases of grain. A siMilar plan would be beneficial to our commercial relations ; the more free they were the more advan tnirous for the country. If we proceeded as we were doing now, our errors would be eternal.- As for the National Debt, he was aware that his opinions might be thought extravagant upon that subject, but he would pay it off by one great sacrifice of capital— Hear, hear).—He would not in that case think th at justice required him to pay at par; the market price would be fair towards the Stockholder. And with tcgard to the objection, that the sale of lan& to meet this demand would be ruinous, it was easily ob viated by observing, that the funded proprietor paid Would have his capital to invest in the purchase of land or in lending to the farmer or landlord, espe cially When Government was no . longer borrowing. We had not yet come near the bounds and extent of our natiopal greatness and prosperity. It was only in comparisou.with other countlies that our distresses seemed so great., and if we only contrived to coun terbilAce the temptations which were held out to invest capital abroad, we should see very different tipies from tbe past. He was for g oin g into this incitliry--(fierir, icor). -Iga. N. CAL VEAT considered Mr. Owens Plan a visionary project. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN, though opposed to ibe Plan generally, thought it proper to send it to a Committee, whose Report . would either state where it was pfacticable, or set the question at rest. Lord ALTIIORP .said .agreed with his Hon. the Member for Portarlington (Mr. Ricardo), in all he had stated, as to the causes of the distresses of the country ; but mto the Corn Laws, though he never suPported kile,psinciple, he still felt that, in a period . of war, thcy, would be of advantage in pro curing an independent supply of that most necessary article. With respect to our Commercial Prolii biterySistim, though not disposed to a Commercial Treaty, yet he was convinced, that if this country took the wine, silks, and other productions of France, ! it must pay for them by the export of its own mann fcatures—(fkar, hear). —If spade industry was so be- fi Cial kite:Projuciii4 eftests,_ the attention of the country would be callicl e tp,, and a sense of . interest would bring it into operation 'Mich more effectually than any Report of a Cerrifnittee of that House. He could not support the motion for a Committee. Mr. CALCRAFT expressed himself against the motion for the Committee. He knew much was ex pected by the_ country from Parliament, anti though he felt that in the removal of that distress much. could not be effected, yet what could be doneshould be attempted quickly, but not by an inquiry into the merits of a Plan which few believed to be practicable. Sir C. BUItRELL said, that the spade husbandry • had been already tried. It was impracticable in many parts of the country; and as to the quantity of its production, it was impossible that so much corn could actually stand on the portion of land front whence such a product was stated to have arisen. He thought the Corn Laws should be altered, so as to . make foreign corn bear a revenue, and give a fair competition to the British farmer. Mr. WILBERFORCE, in arguing *against the Plan of Mr. Owen, adverted to the avowal of that Gentleman in 1817 to found a moral system on the rejection of Christianity! It warnatural, therefore, that all those who sincerely believed that no system of morals could exist unless founded on the basis of the Gospel, should be opposed to his Plan. He was ready to admit that all those who visited the Institu tion at New Lanark, expressed themselves favour ably of the system that prevailed there. At the same time he felt that it was the duty of the House not to separate, without at least shewing a disposition to di minish the distresses of the People, if they could not altogether remedy them. At present every thing ap peared to be in an unnatural state. When he saw great wealth on one hand, and great distress on the other, he could not but be solicitous that scme mode should, if possible, be devised of bringing them to gether ; so as to render them mutually proluctive and beneficial. He believed, with :in Honourable Gentleman who had spoken in the course of the de bate, that this country had not yet seen its best days;. recognizing, as it did, the principles of the only true Religion, and encouraging the diffosionof education, founded on the soundest rules of moral conduct. The great States of antiquity, like the human frame, had each had its infancy, its maturity, and its decay ; be cause, professing Religion founded on erroneous and fraudulent principles, when light broke in upon them the imposture was discovered, and the country fell with it. But we had the happiness of 'possessing a Religion, which the more it was examined the more it evinced its sacred origin ; a Religion true in its na ture, and excellent in its consequences. Resting on so firm a basis, he was persuaded that this country would yet rise to an eminence greater than any to which it had hitherto attained—that it would be her glory and happiness to be the sure refuge of liberty, and the unceasing promoter of honour and virtue. Mr. Alderman WOOD adverted to the various reports that had been made on the subject of public works, and especially on that from the Commissioners of Drainage in Ireland, to shew the want of . capital to carry them on, and the expediency of legislative aid for that purpose. Although he objected to many parts of Mr. Owen's Plan, he thought that the part which related to the cultivation - of the waste lands was highly deserving of attention,'especially when it was considered how large was the annualimportation by this country of foreign corn. This was the first motion that had been made for the appointment of a Committee to consider of the best means of em ploying the Poor, and it ought not to be rejected by the House merely because, they did not altogether approve of the Plan recommended by Mr..ov..e.n. If Ministers would express their intention to propose. any plan themselves on the subject, he was sure the Honourable Baronet would cheerfully withdraw his motion. All who had seen the Establishment at New Lanark, admitted that the course pursued 'by Mr., Owen had succeeded there ; and why might not its benefits be extended ? He was by no means partial to the whole of that Gentlemari's Plan, but lie con ceived that a portion of it might be adopted with great advantage to the country. • Mr. MAXWELL expressed his hope that the House would not refuse to grant the Committee moved for by the Honourable Baronet. Mr. W. HARVEY contended, that the Honour able Member for Bramber had wholly misrepresented Mr. Owen's intentions, and his theological views.— He had read the paper drawn up by the Committee of Visitors, containing a description of the operations pursued at New Lanark, and he had never met with a system of purer morality. While Mr. Owen did not disguise his own views. of polemical subjects, he was not so extravagant as to think of introducing those views into his infant Institution. To state, therefore, that it was an Infidel Institution, and al most an Atheistical College, and that its tendency was to undermine Christianity, was a gross misrepresen tation. For himself, he was never aware that Chris tianity was aided by secular support, but, on the contrary, he always imagined that it was wholly independent of it. The House were not called upon to discuss Mr. Owen's polemical or theolo gical views. They had before them the. fact, that a community of above 2500 persons were by that 'Gentleman's system, brought into a state of great morality, of happiness, at a moment when the whole of the rest of the country was, comparatively speak ing, in the greatest distress. Were they to be blind to that fact, because one Honourable Member thought that Mr. Owen wished to undermine Christianity, and another conceived that,there was some miscalcu lation as to the advantage of spade cultivation ? Unless his Majesty's Ministers would say that they had some other plan to propose, he thought the House bound to acquiesce in the Honourable Baro net's motion, were it only to shew the People that they sympathized with - them under-the diversity of misery which they were suffering. Sir W. DE CRESPIGNY replied. An argument had been urged against the motion which was scarcely to be justified. He owned that he felt extremely sore at that argument ; recollecting, as he did, that in his life he had never witnessed a purer Religion than that established at Lanark. On a Sunday it, Fos one of the most beautiful sights imaginable, to me the inha bitants of . that place going to their respective places of worship. A Right Honourable Gentleman, who had attacked Mr r Oiven'.s Plan, had' cottpled witkit Parliarnentiry Reform. Now, he .. unrieratoo4),Atat to Parliamentary Reform it was decidedly hostile.— Something had also been said about a community of . 2 • • •1•110, ••• • ^:" • ; • property ' , Ther e was no talc g iat, par Every,man had his little cottage, purchased what he required, received his profits, and either; deposited them in his own name in the Savings Banks, or aid with them what he thought fit. - Undoubtedly,- acts , a general combination as that recommended by Mr. Owen, would, in his tSir W. D Crespigny's), nei- , ram, be highly beneficial ; hut that vas not his pre sent object. It was evident that something must' be done for the relief of the poorer classes of the coin munity. This was the first time that a propositicin for considering a particular Plan for that. purpdse had been snlarnitted to Parliament. He now asked his Majesty's Ministers, whether'they hadthemselies any • Plan toprOpose on this important subject? as if so, he would consent immediately to withdraw hiss Miation. No answer being returned, the House proceeded to a division: For the Motion, 16—Againsrit, 141— 'Majority,l2s. SCOTCH 3IANUFACTIISIyO RISTRIcTS• • Mr. MAXWELL rose to call thb attention of the Rouse tb a :Ikea which appeared to him to, be pf so much inVortance, that he felt he shonkthalie been guilty of a great neglect of duty had /Wiror brought it under their consideration. He alluded to the dis tress existing in the manufactuting districts of Scot land, and more especially in the County of RenfreW. In that County the manufacturers were reduced to such a• state as to be utterltineapalahr of self-support. After describing at considerable length the, nature and extent of the distress in that County, tier HO nourable Member proceeded to obierve, that several subscriptions had been raised for the purpose of alle viating it. These being at length found insufficient, and all hope being abandoned of being able them selves to remedy the evil, a petition was presented to his Majesty's GovernMent describing the local dis tresses, and adverting to the existence of that in subordination' Which always accompanied want. It could not be expected that the County of Renfrew • should support the numerous strangers who had been `brought thither for the purpose of •working in the manufactories, but who were now unemployed._ When he stated, among other considerations, that the rental of the County was almost entirely swal lowed up by this evil, he conceived himself entitled to call on the Government and the Legislature to af ford some aid ; and by so doing, he was persuaded, not only that they would not in reality trench on the national funds,but that in quieting tumult and disaffec tion, would prevent a material defalcation in the reve nue. The lion. Gentleman proceeded to advert td • the various causes in which, in his opinion, the exist= ing distresses had originated. 'Among them was the sudden check which had been given to that policy', which had for so long a time determined the labour of the country towards manufactures. Another caus e of the evil was the dimini'hed circulafion in the shape of wages, which the reduction of taxation, Consequent on the return of peace, occasioned. A third cause was the alarni pervading all the Western parts of Scotland, inducing many persons to withdraw their capitals. On these, and various other grounds (which the Honourable Gentleman detailed at considerable length) he thought Parliament would be warranted in making some grant on the subject ; the more espe;i -' cially as it was not likely that the necessity for' Le gislative interference would recur. But even were his Motion rejected, he was persuaded that the dis cussion of it would not be unattended with advani; tage. It Was highly desirable that those who wished to emigrate, but who could not raise the ten pounds required for that purpose, should be assisted. Others might have the burdens which they endured dimi nished. Persons -who were unable teexist, should he relieved from taxation altogether—(Hear, hear). — In making this observation, he alluded more particu larly to the Irish population.' It was necessary that the burden of supporting the poor'should not fall ex clusively on the land-owner. This it was which caused so much disaffection in both countries. Let the House consider whether, from what they had heard, they did not suppose that the discontent of the country did not arise more from want than from disaffection ?—(hear, hear !).—lt was said that Radi cal Reform was what the People wanted. This cry alarmed hundreds of thousands; but the main cause of the alarm was the distresses, theivants of the Peo ple. The middling orders of society were identified with those who were the agents of productive labour. Let the People see that their wants were attended to, and they would be found quiet and tractable; they would be found amenable to the Laws, and sup ,porters of'the Constitution. The Honourable Mem ber concluded by moving, that there be laid before ,the House copies of the different Memorials presented to the Treasury relative to the distresses laboured . under by the population of the County of Renfrew. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ob- • ,served, that his Majesty's Ministers had in all easel : shewn a readiness. to relieve the distresses of the country, where their interference could be produc- • tive of beneficial effects. He was aware, and so was the House, that much distress was caused by a trap- , sition from war to peace; by a change of fashions, and by several other causes. The Right Honourable Gentleman, in order to shew the anxiety of Ministers to relieve the distresses of the country, read the fol- . . lowing letter : • (COPY.) " Fife House, 14th December, 1119. " MT Loso--I have had the honour of receiving your Grace's *. letter. I informed you some days ago of the course of proceed- • int which bad been adopted in consequence of the application from the City of Glasgow. " A Petition has been presented to the House of Commons from that place, and measures are in progress for tarrying into effect the prayer of that Petition. " As soon as the question of security can be • settled to the sa tisfaction of Parliament, Government will have no difficulty in midst an advance, with a view to immediate relief. w• Your Grace does not seem to'be aware that the Govern ment of this country has no fund at its dispolal for the relief of the distresses of the Poor; that the People of England provide for their Poor by local assessments, and that it never could be expected in reason or justice that they should be idled upon gra tuitoudy to provide for the Poor of the other parts of the United Kingdom (where no assessment exists) in addition to their own. " If the district of Lanark, or any of the other distressed dis tricts of Scotland, will apply to Parliament foe leave to assess themselves, hs aid of their poor, Government will have no oitti culty in reckimatending, under the special circumstances of the case, thatitilvenesa shall be made on the security of such wess meats ; or, if any plan can be proposed to Parliament for giving employment to the poor, by means of local improVemer.v, Go.. 'ferment will have the same disposition to forward the object by terr.peraiy advances, where reasonable security can be given for ultimatk-repayment.. - • • • • • • " With respect to easignithsttlyour Grace lealreadyacquointed • +with- my sentiments. The object, important as it is in itself, can from its nature only admit of gradual accomplishment, and to attempt a too extensive and hasty execution of such a plan ~.-.. • . . 4,- /I n _:._:~ amtigtiali ~F~. .._..__ to M . r. ter j of the % i t. Lanark rears ...tire% 3 vi ' Lean' • • ills of .ora the still 0 ;l it acl'al „ he bad t by et. who th• ;1 7. Mr. (I u se al mon , eve to th t:( speet ^ilXITAble -.Owen's was to , 3 s in wh' I wnich : .1 belong : Now, i 'riaer's) in Owen ti ..e all u Geodes :arc of 1m be s. , tioit Wa •!,a syt - nit :Al a -rvornen -teas it to do '.hone be, it iti tpt c:011 t, in ..active 1817 • ctont h as in slit agreed .• t coul ' • founded O Repine •st • • upon tl P. rand d, re and A that c • . •, wen's f t pra SC rower ed ned into r da ce.TI .ly evic nor the ui ,7riptio e s t but Ca In !Ivry ii ts. est - hide! the. •ly ad, Flo irour c Thi • , 't not I bit (4 du p • si .isel • Idre so •so o f , Ibit Mr. JO eth person ime ! b e li eve ar i 7rnan be ling , ou id ha Tit b pmt . e for th?' - a dei th thi • again, mo sublet •iabl , pt error lib con w-cri con far fru the tc co on - . . di sin ecte. • so urea - rorth esti h • tha tirel • . Ile 0; syk; lari si , and n the i! s s eck.l y akin. "sun night , cc upon edge. -„ 1, , aught u iro ? c.7uld ✓ the eta u Plass s dis- 41.1 e wa, • tt. In- :o vi they . pub- ... e a ;ether l'pon rasure Baru- r Tiro- sed ;se to enz, !cause ()us in every r 1 P. a ' i ‘ t . % I I 1 . . .. 1 i 1 I I i 4 . . ~1 I r I : 1 1 : f 4 I • ; t ~., .~ } ;. . . • I - 1 I ! 1 ; • 1