Star. — London, England, 1819-03-30 00:00:00

enied b 7 the Honourable Gentleman s r! ist bear in mind, that after the inquiry a l i en place. the characters of other per- low be affected by their decision, who clai►u to their protection as the Hon. id have He had never heard stronger evidence better corroborated than that ,• ah For that of Mr. Geoid, consider ion in Ireland, and at the Irish bar, he and speak of it differently from what he evidence had come from anather person. most add, that his want of recollec i s recollcction, made Lis evidence of no Ily when opposed as it was to that of a C. Smyth. The evidence even of Mr. fact to corroburate that of Mr. Smyth. given by Mr. Carew Smyth to Mr. not such as it might have been wished , en, but various considerations tended to he thought it impossible to believe that been any conspiracy against the Honoura tn. He must agree with the Ilesolu that a high breach of their privileges ap- me been committed; but still there were o r s trong mitigation to be urged in ilonouritge Gentleman, and there were iggravation. gran the whole he could for an amendment to the motion, but id been moved appeared to hid' to, be a r. If carried they would find the House ruhl not acquit Mr. Quin in the eyes of if he believed that what the Honourable iad done, had been done with a corrupt 7ould say the House ought not to anal. lin its walls, and that punishment ought to him which was applied to the smaller Howse, however, ought to recollect duct had been on former occasions, and world to say of them that they punished ,n in an inferior officer, which, in one iporiAnce, was permitted to escape with begged to trespass for a short time on ,of the House. The subject was one of qualm, and he was sure that the . 1-louse to be most important—that it was one ,ad them to perform a duty not merely bat also judicial, and, as such, he was ad be disposed to extend some indul k any one who, like himself, thought occupy some portion of their time in the various circumstances of the case.— egin by noticing one part of the subject reference had been made to himself per is was respecting a gap in the corre. In one of the letters of the elder Mr. appeared in the evidence, lie paid many to Mr. Carew Smyth, on the way in managed one part of the transaction in. These compliments very naturally probability of some letters having been Mr. Carew Smyth, giving such an ac conduct as would justify these compli ordingly a messenger was dispatched to or any such letters; but none such ap ine indeed was inclosed to him by the Gentleman, who asked him (Mr. Peel) ,her he thought the interests of either ::ed its publication ? In reply to this corn 'le stated, after having examined it, that thing in the letter which required its pub-. : the same time he must say, tiv:4t there in that letter to justify the tompliments iy—(Hrnr, hear).—Yet *se compliments relined by Mr. C. Smyth, though he gave , of his conduct in the transaction different which, he had given at the Bar of the lavinz raid this much, he must now recall attention of the House to some of the statements been made. And first, as to what had', . the tone in which Mr. Quin had spoken.— he was sure the Ifouse would think such ~ warranted by the circumstances in which aced. It was natural that such charges repelled with indignation. The Petition stating, that Mr. Wyndham Quin, finding Elect;on for the County of Limerick, that ,:e had very much declined, had found it to divide the office of Clerk of the Peace, .iew of increasing his influence. Now it not only that this assertion WAS nut proved, was distinctly disproved. The next ma ration in the Petition was, that Mr. Grady auly, for many years, supported the hue :. Quin in the County, by his whole te mounting to no less than 200 freeholders, Mr. Quin wished to secure this support for by a regular bargain and sale. This alle ; also disproved. The third allegation was, :sclaime. r of exacting . Mr. Grady's political 'as made by Mr. Quin, in consequence of of a parliamentary investigation. It was his Honourable Friend (Mr. Wilbraham) teas not proved, although the Ilonourab:e whose Nlotiop was before the flow;; ; , did such an admission. From tl;g evidence (aS now before the House, he thought the conclusions must be drawn : first, that the motion di: Mr. C 1 2.7:.n in dividing the office, to secure the political support of Mr. Grady. that up to the interview on the 21st of fiber, nothing was said by Mr. Wyndham to his requiring Mr. Grady's political sup le condition on which the annuity was granted. , that on the 10th of October, when Mr. tpressly stated that he did not stipulate for the ,support of Mr. Grady, that declaration was IF from any threat of parliamentary inquiry. -le first point, he contended, that the great of ' l7 - Quin in dividing the office of Clerk of tc; was to be relieved from the necessity of tiy dismissing from that office Mr. T. V. .h . ho had supported him at the last election, lo !he must confess) had reason to Expect that ild be continued in the office. On this subject it read an extract from Mr. Grady's letter to .myth, dated lsth September, in which he in account of a conversation with Mr. Quin • In that account Mr. Quin is represented to What is to be done ? I have promised and that .pronsise I must make good, if I have Power:" To this Mr. Grady replies (p. 100), *t are two friends who have equal claims upon \ olle has been in office fifteen years, and is now ce , and you turn him out to appoint the other ; IS a cue that you yourseW admit is incapable 1 • . of compromise bets/refs ARM." Mr. 1 74 P; iir •rn dharn Quin then says, " I ne v e r w a s i n a situation of so Much distress and difficulty; I with I never had any thing , ao do with it, for I can not t hi n k o f i t with -1 Out pain. "fhis was the elder Mr. Grady's account of what passed on this occasion, and it does not ap pear from it that one word was about political said support. Another part of the c‘idence deserved the attention of the House. Mr. 'l'. W. Grady stated (p. 71,) that " directly after the election I rode out to Adare, thinking it a matter of course to be ap pointed, and which I told Mr. quin : Mr. Quin, to I . my great astonishment, stated that he dreaded the interview which was about to take place between ns." He then states that an arrangement was talked of, and Mr. Quin proposed to al low him the pro% fits of the office of Clerk of the Peace for two years. If therefore this (which was the first offer of compro mise, and proceeded from Mr. Quin), had been ac cepted, it was clear that no political support was bargained for. Nor, indeed, was it reasonable to sup pose that any such could be expected by Mr. Quin, for suppose that the next election took place in seven years, what claim would Mr. Quin then have on Mr. Grady for his support for the two years' profits of art office from which he was removed? This, there ' fore, clearly established, that the original motive for dividing the office was net to obtain political support. As to the second position, it was clearly proved on the evidence of the Petitiene.r himself, that up to the 21st of September, nothing was said by Mr. Quin of the political support of Mr. Grady being a condition for the annuity of £2OO. Mr. T. W. Grady was disa tinctly asked (p. 78) whether Mr. Quin had said any thing to him about political support, and his answer was, " certainly not." This was decisive on that point. The third point related to the circumstances which took place on the 10th of October. On that /day Mr. :Wyndham Quin hid distinctly stated that Mr. Grady would have the annuity and might vote as he pleased. Therefore, whatever impropriety there had been in the conduct of Mr. Quin, he had before that time repented of it. But the Hon. Gentleman tried to do away with the merit of Mr. Quin's decla ration on the 10th of October, by imputing it to the threat of bringing the matter before Parliament.— Certainly, if the declaration was made under that threat, he must admit that it did away with all the grace of the repentance. The Honourable Gentle man said, that the letter delivered by Mr. Carew Smyth, dated the Bth October, might have conveyed the threat of Parliamentary investigation, and that Mr. Quin might have acted under its influence.— But Mr. Carew Smyth expressly gave it in evidence, that he had received that letter which had been sent to him open, and that it did not contain any threat or hint of the kind. But then the Honourable Gen tleman seemed to say that Mr. Mansell might have conveyed this threat. It was impossible to hold to this ; for Mr. Mansell, in his evidence, distinctly stated, that it was not till November or December that he heard any thing of a Parliamentary inquiry. Therefore he did maintain that it was conclusively established by the evidence before the House, that Mr. Quin was entitled to all the grace of the decla ration made by him on the 10th October—(hear.) He zn . .ist now notice that part of the case which re lated to the transaction between the 21st September and the 10th October. In that interval, it could not be denied that Mr. Quin expected the political sup port of Mr. Grady. But then the great matter was, bow it was mentioned, and how stated, in that inn-tai -1 ment which Mr. Grady called the indenture and deed? It appeared, that in the conversation on dint occasion Mr. Quin said, that when he appointed Smith to the office, it was to hold it during his (Mr. Quin's) pleasure, that so he mightsecure the pay ment of Mr. T. lk'. Grady's artratY,-that then there was a pause, and Mr. Quin added " but I expect in return that the Grady family will remain. politically attached to me in the County of Limerick." The whole of this conversation contained nothing imply ing a pledge; and if Mr. Grady had accepted the annuity, there would have been no more than a mere expectation on the part of Mr. Quin that he would have the political support of Mr. Grady. But then came the interview of Mr. C. Smyth with Mr. Quin. On this part of the subject he begged that it might be observed, the interview was solicited and pressed by Mr. Carew Smyth. He admitted that Mr. Quin went to that interview with the expectation, that ,if the annuity was granted he would remain on the came footing with Mr. Grady as formerly. The whole im pression on Mr. C. Smyth's mind was, that Mr. Quin ' had a right to expect that Mr. Grady, if he accepted the annuity, would continue his political support, and he had expressly s:,:ited, that he thought it would be romantic to (2',.pect Mr. Quin would grant t! an nuity-, and consent to all.;:m. Mr. Grady tr.:Vote against him. S.,uppose Mr. C. Smyth had began the conver satima with Mr. Quin, by saying 4 , I think it too ro uotntic to expect that you will grant this annuity, and at t!;;; same time allow Mr. Grady to vote against you." Might not Mr. Quin have very readily been drawn in to reply ? ,‘ To tell you the truth, I do ex pect is he accepts the annuity that he will continue to support me—for as you say it would be much too rcnnantic to expect that I could allow hint to vote against me under such circumstances." If afterwards, next day, Mr. C. Smyth, after having extracted such an avowal, came with a written minute of the con versation to procure an authentication of it, the whole complexion of the case would be altered. The truth was, that the document in this case, though not , signed, was obtained by Mr. Carew Smyth at an interview procured at his own instigation ; and he wished the House to observe the light it which Mr. Grady, senior, viewed the conduct of Mr. C. Smyth as to this part of the transaction. In Mr.l Grady's letter of o,:he 20th October, to Mr. Carew Smyth, he says, "II know not what part of your con duct most to adms re —the coolness and ingenuity with which you led (.4 . ain on at his interview w i t h y ou in l i Dublin, from c ,quetry to a full declaration of his passion for bAbery and corruption — th e sim p licit y - . with which ye .0 conducted him to a written testimo nial," &C. I - .! e was sorry that 11r. Carew Smyth did not reject th ose compliments—(hear, hear). He Dever read a pass age more calculated to mita the sudden indignze.;,y a of a man of honour than that in which Mr. Graf y, sen. with an odious familiarity of stYl_e , I talked yo, how he had led on the onsuspecting ?itr-, Quin to commit himself. The words were (p. 105), Twc . damned insidious of you, And a great shatnei to ha ri: asked Quin to sign the Jed of clianerP a r l Yl &c. !Thew were the farts jp which *as part of the trammel . on was talked of. Ceitainly he wished Mr.' Quin had at once told Mr.Gratiy, jun. that he could not continue him in the Office. He disapproved of dividing the office ; but it was to be considered that it was not an unusual practice to do so, speaking without reference to the Act of 1809. But he really believed there was no intention to purchase political support, and that, but f..n. the interview, it wonld have been left to a fair understanding. There were many circumstances to be considered in mitigation of the conduct of Mr. Quin; and he Was sum the censure voted by his Honourable Friend (Mr. Bootle), in such a tan, must be considered a severe punish ' ment. He begged the House to recollect, that on the 10th October Mr. Quin repented of his conduct, and expressly released the improper condition which he had mentioned. He implored the House not to be influenced by any publication which had been made of a letter of Mrs. Grady to Mrs. Quin, which he understood had been printed and circulated yes terday. The Committee of the House had examined that letter, and as it did not materially bear upon the question, being written in confidence frim one Lady to another, it had been suppressed.' He trusted that the House would not be influenced in its judgment by the art'fices of such a publication.—(The Right Honourable Member concluelal a midst much cheering.) Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said he rose to state, shortly and impartially, the grounds on which he should act in performing what he felt to be a painful judicial duty. The issue on which they were bound to try the Hon. Member (Mr. Quin), and to find a true deliverance, was, whether the alleged breach of privilege was proved? They were to decide whether it had been proved that Mr. Quin, on the 21st of September, did not, by expectation, or any tacit un derstanding, but by express words, require the poli tical support of 51r. Grady, as the reward of an an nuity. It was a misconception to suppose that from July till the interview in September, no idea was en tertained by Mr. Quin of stipulating for political support. No occasion arose for the discussion till this interview. But the Right Honourable Gentleman I(Mr. Peel) omitted one important circumstance in the evidence. It is there stated, that it was men- tinned that nothing had been distinctly stated as to political support; and the answer was, , g certainly not—but that is of course always understood between men of the work." Now if this be believed, it must be carried back to all the antecedent parts of the transaction. Arother important omission of the Right Honourable Gentleman was, the circumstance that there was reason to believe that a change was taking place in the political opinions of the Grady family. This must be particularly marked, for it was the motive which operated all along on Mr. Quin. In that part of the Right Hon. Gentleman's speech, in which he placed the circumstances on the ground of mitigation of punishment, the subject wasi placed in its true light, and some degree of offence was admitted. As to what related to the character of Mr. Carew Smyth, the Right Hon. Gentleman had treated the subject in a way that delivered him (Sir James Mackintosh) from much difficulty. Alter thirty years' experience of the examination of wit nesses, he must say, he had never seen a person placed in so difficult a situation as Mr. C. Smyth, ac quit himself with so much credit—(Hear, hear). — As to Mr. Goold, he wished to treat him with that respect which his profession, his high rank in it, the general high charterer of the Irish Bar, demamted. But his Honourable Friend nad expressed himself ' to the testimony of Mr. Goold as of such a character, that it justified a proposal of its being totally ex punged. He had himself seen so many instances of the fallibility of memories, that he . was aware how much allowance was to be made on that account. But if a man's memory was so bad between the hours of eleven and twelve, that he forgot all the occurrences of that time, he could not trust the memory of that person as to what had happened between three and four: Then it was to be considered that one or two of the points on which Mr. Goold's memory had fail ed, were the most important in the whole transaction. He would appeal to any man, at all acquainted with the rules cf evidence, whether, if one half of a man's testimony was fallacious, the other half of it was to 'be trusted? Certainly not. On that ground, there ' fore, it was justifiable to omit Mr. Goold's evidence. Mr. Carew Smyth then was an uncontradicted wit ness. It was to be observed that this Gentleman had taken many notes, and given several accounts of what had passed. All of these agreed exactly. He wrote the minute—he wrote several letters, giving an account of the transaction, and they all exactly lived. Now he would waive the high character of It•tr. Carew Smyth—he would waive the strong im pression which must have been produced on the mind of every Member, by . the testimony given by Mr. Carew Smyth at the Bar—he would waive all this, and would stand upon the perfect agreement of these accounts as decisive of their accuracy.— For what interest had Mr. Carew Smyth in deceiving the older and younger Mr. Grady ? The testimony of Mr. Carew Smyth was therefore unimpeachable., As to Mr. Grady woulci.ma ke no obser vation on his conduct and for this reason—bt.Tausei he had already suffered punishment from the House. As to what had been said of the interview, a view of the whole circumstances of the case must convince every man that Mr. Carew Smyth went to that inter view with the most sincere desire of bringing the compromise to a successful conclusion. His great object in that interview was not to entrap Mr. Quin, bin to bring the compromise to a conclusion. As to the second Resolution of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bootle), which stated that there was a mere expecta- Aiin on the part of Mr. Quin that political support continue, it really appeared to him that .it, would be negatived unless the House was prepared to disbelieve positive and direct evidence. He was sorry, as to such a matter, even to allude to the pu nishments with which such offences against the privi leges of the House ought to be visited ; but he was decidedly of opinion that where any Member gave away any office or emolument as the price of political support, where the charge was clearly proved, the proper punishment was expulsion from the House.— (Hear, heir, heir.) Mr. PLUNKETT spoke strongly in favour of the ',character of Mr. Gronld. Noticing the unfortunate lisiskakes into which that Gentleman had fallen in hisl lir' was glad shpt no one had adopted the hardier construction of imputing.tis errors to any ,dditig but Mite d He contended, that there was no ground for erasing or expunging the ;74 - 4. ~4.11:0WV :,..,,,. s ' . . . whole of Mr. Goold's evidence, for anv mistakes Some parts 'of it. On the same principle they would exclude that Gentletnan's evidence on every future occasion, and brand Win' as a person totally unworthy of credit. There were fear material pies. as to which Mr. Carew Smyth and Mr. Goold differed:— First, as to whether the refusal to sign the Minute on tr whether Third, disavowaltlli e ie r t : e u r s oN a f l i. ci e Q) n rau( t )civnc r merely the 22d September was by Mr. Quin or Mr. Goold? r. c $ c r no nature,ennd , or .3: accuracy yy; lead s 1 i f ctu . e the trdl:;ec that y s d i he would be always ready to of the Minute, though he would not sign it ? Potieth, whether Mr. Quin did, on the 242 d September, at any interview at which Mr. Goold was present, aclinow ledge that Mr. Carew Smyth's account, which re presented the proposal of political support to have ori ginated on the part of him (Mr. Quin) was correct? As to the first, the positive assertion of Mt. C. Smyth was, that before Mr. Quin had time to answer him, Mr. Goold said he had advised. Mr. Quin not to sign the minute. This, however, seemed te, be contra dicted by the minute itself,. on the face of which there was this memorandum, stating that " for cer tain reasons stated to me, he (Mr. Quin, that being tbe next antecedent) refused to sign." 13et Mr. C. Smyth, in his evidence, (p. 60), explains, that by " he," he meant Mr. Goold. But by the letter of Mr. C. Smyth, given in evidence, (p. 20), he expressly refers the refusal - to Mr. Quin, and imputes it to his alarm in consequence of Mr. Grady's letter. Here was the first material point of difference in the evi dence of Mr. Goold and Mr. C. Smyth, vet it an pear( d, both from •the minute and Mr. C. Smyth's own letter, that the explanation was wrong, and that Mr. Goold was correct. This be certainly did not state by way of imputation against Mr. Carew Smyth, whom be believed to be quite incapable of misrepresentation from improper motives. It shewed, however, the fallibility of Mr. Carew Smith's own recollection, on a runt material point—(Hear, teeny.) The second difference was relative to the signature of the minute. According to Mr C. Smyth, the sole objection of Mr. Quin was to signing the minute, and not to its accuracy. And this refusal was stated to be because the °Rice was one connected with the ad ministration of justice. Yet the objection was merely to the signature, whilst the transaction itself was ad mitted. Could any man believe that this was the motive—that he would confess the culpable gift in the presence of several persons and then refuse his signature as affording evidence of it ?—(blear, The next point of difference clearly shewed the ab surdity of this representation—for, according to Mr. C. Smyth's statement, Mr. Quin, while he refused his signature, offered on all occasions to attest the acen racy of the minute. Now as to this he must say, in, credidus odi—it was not to be believed. Tlea the guilty offer should have been acknowledged—that the signature should be refused as evidence of it ; and ' then in the same breath, that though he refused to sign, he offered on all occasions to attest the accuracy :e1 a written account, stating that the guilty offer which had been made was too much for any credulity. It was absurd. It was impossible to believe it. And nit was quite clear that as to the first point of dif ference Mr. C. Smyth was mistaken, so he was also Mistaken in the second and third. (Hear, hear, hear.) This brought him to the fourth difference—as to the condition of support having originated with Mr.Quin. I n D. elk ' «1 , . evidence. Mr. t smyrn expressly states that the £2OO a year would not have been ac cepted if it had been coupled with any condition for political support. He recalled the attention of the House to the - memorable conversation so often re ferred to. In that there appears to have been, a long pause. He should like to have heard what passed during that interval, but Mr. Carew Smith endea voured to make the supposed heads of it. llad he (Mr. Plunkett) known what really passed, he would have been better enabled to elicit the subject. But whatever was alleged on the occasion, he was of opi nion that the party (Mr. Quin) ought not to be crush ed ; and therefore, believing Mr. Quin free from any thing but an act et . indiscretion, he felt himself ern . - boldened to stand forward in his detcece. He had not been guilty of any breach of privilege, neither ought he to suffer for the misconcentions of others. He referred to the evidence of Mr. Roche, Mr. Gab bet, and others, in vindication of his assertion.— Whenever pressed upon the part of Mr. Grhsly, he resisted his importunities, and refused to enter into any compact. Mr. Quin positively denies having entered into any stiptiletion with Mr. Grady ; and in addition u, the evidence of Mr. Roche and Mr. Gabbet, they had in the evidence of Mr. Grady him. self, ample proof of the inneeeace of Mr. Quin. — From pure beneficence, the latver haii offered Mr. Grady the younger I:200 a-year, a friend, and totally free from all political bias. Ha believed the proposition which had caused the dispreesitre of the House had not originated with Mr. Quin, ter any of his friends, but from Mr. Grady himself, or from Mr. Carew Smyth, his agent. Thence arose Ali-. Quin's apparent sanction to it. I give yon (sej.s Mr. Quin) 4.:2(X) a-year free from every stipulation." It. was Mr. Quin's own bounty, and lie had a right to gratify himself in this particular—(flear, her:o— was no criminality in it. In his opinion it was an innocent and a warrantable transaction, if any blame was attachable to Mr. Wyndham - Quin, it arose from his suffering himself to be decoyed, or misled into such a transaction. What would we have done had the proposition originated with Mr. Wyndham Quin ? As a MeMbn at rarliament, he would have been expelled the House, and been* aiso deprived of his office of Custc's notulerom. But 'lie had con ducted a• - very different manner; and he (Mr. Plunkett) did not feel disposed to 'allow his ene mies the triumph which they expected. Ile bestowed several encomiums olal‘7.r. Care* Smyth as a t irn tleman of great respectability, although in this in stance he might be said to have made some unac ' countable deviation from propriety. horn every 'view of the subject, he could not consent to the reso lution of the gallant General, as censuring the con ' duct of Mr. Quin—('l he Honpurable Member sat dotr'n amidst loud cheers.) Mr. %VYNNE, after maturely reading and weigh ing all the circumstances of the case, entertained an 'opinion • widely different. He thought Mr. Quin 'had been guilty of an attempt to commlt l iiribery . and corruption. The case had been clearly made -out--(Hear,.hear). Mr. JOHN SMITH praised Mr. Carew ~'myth for his candid and manly evidence; and he wat soriy V ,lllMr" -- ivocanl ac t bat theY d n"11 f tich «a, w ould no .. 1,1 35 gr eat a ' Jera ber could e, Or r - 11 r Sn'Y rs • • c r !us Sinl4lo ( ?•01W think al i: a ald if the cv . F;ro . g this he or his znis eSPOCiaI I oi l :: like Mr. i ts -c 1.3 rent in , r advice g was n be git;ei it, an. e hag! been Ger.rleruhn of fact, tl .zed to have ii . mmt rances th.df of the I] so me of as b are uidted fo ost which had Oct nullity. c nilty, but woi il : enxioa. If Gentleman hat rotive, lie wa to sit withi 0. applied ti 4 1,1 ihr:ir con, : . ‘t allow the i t.st corruption r: Lighter imps ovuty. Y.:. PEEL 1 Ee:lttesizion o: tat in portar veld feel it t( requireC b r.:l they woul • :Cc towards :.-...cessary to .orsidering the Y.t should beg ( which a re This trraience. Is tr2dy, which ilspliments he had :dr. Qui :;;aced the by z..r.t of his c rms. Acco Hogue for :Ted. One 'irlaurzble ( 1::ze wheti .:ty require :zicatai hi :ire WA: I.lotl 1.611, At rat nothing (irady tenet dcc n account o :em that w sior,se. Ha attention Lich had .en said of ' .1.4 tone, h was well e was plat ~o,tl be r e• b ran by su s. the last I influence : , :cessary to ..7.1 the vi append 114 :T. that :t . 4i41 14 coastal %. , t of Mr. am c.! that Jl sje future 1 ;:ion was at the d's .pport era s-t threat ii.T.itted this t, make ..j, rnake _lca was lowing • OW n 4 not to .)t xernbe .14 as a% the • . • t.. T . cr y r 6 '• made tl to t'. l o: P en , dr, *fis t '.r' . :cc a , 'rnltl), 0 • , (.1.1 it „