Star. — London, England, 1819-11-24 00:00:00

~ 0 serve hiniself till the arrival of the day in which the subject should be particularly considered, either with respect to the loyalty of the Meeting, or with tele ranee to any information of which Government were ecclusively possessed, and with respect to facts which could not be controverted. He could venture to as sert, upon his confidence in the opinions of those who bad been consulted, that the conduct which had been So impugned was perfectly justifiable. In cases of, this sort, their Lordships must be aware that to talk of a sweeping responsibility was of no avail. On Wednesday, the 17th of August, two Gentlemen, came to town for the purpose of putting his Majesty s Government in possession of the real situation of af fairs at Manchester. This information more strongly confirmed the propriety of proceeding in the course laid down ; and with this accumulation of facts, it had still been deemed necessary to forego proceed ings, until the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown had been taken, which declared the Meeting to be illegal, and the conduct of the Magistrates just and proper--(Hear, hoar, hear). What, he asked, would have been the situation of these Magistrates, who had sacrificed every thing to the service of their Country, if his Majesty's Ministers, instead Of doing as they had done, had said—" Something may come out at some future time, and we had better wait?" (Hear, hear, hear). Had there ever existed any pe riod at which their Lordships had been more indis psnsably called upon to protect the Constitution and Laws of this Country ? It hid been stated, that a number of persons had lost their lives at Manchester, and this subject was strongly dwelt on; but it should be recollected, that these were not the only persons who had suffered. One person connected with the Police Office had actually been stoned to death in the open face of day!--(Hear, hear, hear). Two other persons who had given evidence on the Inquest at Oldham, had had their lives placed in the most imminent danger, having been fired at several times, but yet their cases had, in some measure, been lost sight of. There was not, in fact, during the whole proceedings, one life lost by a violation of the laws ; the course pursued was justifiable in every view of it, and had the Magistrates not acted as they had done, the situation of the Country might have now been the most frightful. Their Lordships were now called upon to perform a great duty, and he felt convinced that they would so perform that duty as to give en tire satisfaction to the Country at large, and satisfy the People that his Majesty's Ministers were doing every thing in their power to ameliorate their situa tion (!tear, hear, hear). He would not enter into the . particulars of the cause that induced his Majesty to dispense with the services of a Noble Earl (Fitzwil- Lon) to whom allusion had been made ; but he must say, that the conduct of that Noble Earl was such as to render it indispensably necessary to follow such a course. His Lordship concluded by saying, that un derstanding the present subject would at a future pe riod occupy the attention of their Lordships, he • would not enter farther into it at present, but at the same time expressed his intention to vote for thc Ad dress as it stood ; and if the Noble Earl persisted in his Amendment he •vould meet it with a direct negative. Lord ERSKINE observed, the only question now w as to know, whether their Lordships should vote for the Address or the. Amendment? The question was certainly one of the greatest interest ; and as the ' Noble Viscount, who had just sat down, had told them that he would not enter into the Amendment, he should only detain their Loidships for a few mo ments longer. The question was no less than whe ther they should vote the amendment, and whether they should tell the People that their wrongs should be redressed by them? If it were true that the ques tion would have been prejudged on the former occa • sion, what right had they to prejudge it now ? He contended that many of the dangers that had arisen were created by the non-attendance to the complaints of the People ; and it was now for their Lordships to. prove to them that they were their Representatives. There had been Meetings of great multitudes of the People, but it was not likely that, as in the present case, they would have taken with them defenceless women and•children, if their object had been really that described. If such was the case, the Riot Act ought to have been read, which did not appear, to have been done. Was it to be said, that a man, be cause he was a felon, was to be sabred ? Was it to be said, that because the Magistrates were right in dispersing the'Meeting, the Military were justified in going into it and cutting the people right and left ? I f the use•made of the Military on the present occa sion were to pass unnoticed, when it became legally necessary its use would become vitiated. He was rally convinced that the State could not be safe unless the Petitions of the People were attended to, and he', now tailed on their Lordships to convince them that I they were determined to prove to them - that they were sincere, by adopting the Amendment. Lord KING contended that nothing that had grassed subsequertly had tended to allay the sensation that had been created by the transactions at Man-' chester. He complained that the multitude had bees suffered to meet at all, and of the moment that had been thought most proper to arrest the individuals. The conduct pursued, he described to have had the effect of setting one class of the community at vat-6 ince with the other, and ascribed the present situae tide of the country to the want of a timely Reform. Ile adverted to the sum awarded to his Royal High ness the Duke of York in the last Session, which he complained of, as did he also of the adjournment oi l the Oldham Inquest. His Lordship concluded by lamenting, that any circumstances should have arises that might have the effect of breaking down the wholesome feeling that ought to exist between the People and the Government, and exhorting their Lordships not to come to any conclu s io n w i t h out duly considering the importance of the subject. The Earl of CARYSFORT raid, it was impossible that such Meetings could be legal, when they were assembled for purposes hostile to all property and private security ; and, indeed, to all the purposes for which men have agreed to enter into social society. "It was, therefore, their duty to assist Government, in order to resist those who by their arts would inflame the minds of the People, and would use them for it was the duty of every Public Officer, and of every individual in the land, to do the same, if they valued their property and lives, or even the safety of the State. What would have been said by Lord Somers at the Revolution, of libelling Grand Juries, because they would not violate their oaths ? What would he have said of the power of popul ar clam our directing s uch immense masses of turbulent, inflamed, and misguidedrindivichyls? These were the serious evils which should induce all good men to stand forward in defence of Constitutional Liberty. He still was of opinion that lenient measures were much better than those of a harsher character I but he could not con sider the approving of the conduct of the Magistrates when they were supposed to have done their duty, of the latter description. He felt that this question interested him much, inasmuch as it affected a Noble Friend of his, whom he had esteemed for fifty years; bat if that Noble Friend had advised with him, he, perhaps, would have wished him to have taken a different step from what he did ; still he regretted that Ministers had adopted such a course with re spect to Lord Fitzwilliam, who had many times done great violence to his interest and feelings, by sup porting the Government and the Constitution. He therefore, could net applaud the way in which Go vernment had treated that Noble Earl. The Duke of ATHOL thought it the duty of every man to resist the arts of factious individuals, and the dissemination of sedition and blasphemy. He knew, however, that the efforts of the disaffected had not been so successful in Scotland, as they had wished or expected; bat he could speak froni his own know,' ledge, that seditious trash had been given away among them, or -sold at low prices, with the vain ex pectation of seducing them from their loyalty, 'and blasphemy spread abroad to destroy their religious principles. These, however, were too deep rooted to' be so easily destroyed; and they remained patient in their situations, expecting better times. Ile, how ever, thought that Government should be supported in preventing the progress of Radical Reform, which was simply, every man that could, seizing his neigh bour's goods, and retaining them if he was able. If they could stop such a spirit, let it be done with as little harshness as possible; but if he were asked what measures he would propose? he should say, just such measures as the case required ; and let them stop when the necessity which called for them should cease. Nothing should prevent him from doing what he thought his duty, and he should therefore, attend de die in diem in his place, to further all mea sures to prevent such proceedings. Lord LILFORD said, he was the advocate ofi thousands, and tens of thousands, of their loyal and peaceable fellow-subjects, v.ho called upon them to put a stop to those turbulent proceedings, which in terfei ed with their quiet and ordinary habits of life. He read a letter from a perscra in the middle order of life, stating, that the People would not he goaded on by Reformers, if they were not perverted by the blasphemous and seditious tracts so inihistriously circulated, and which Government ought to put a 'stop to. He defended the conduct of the Manchester Magistrates. • hail GUY explained. If it could be maintained in this instance, that Parliamentary inquiry was extra judicial, the same might be contended in every in stance where the Constitution was violated. Lord LILFORD resumed. These Magistrates were most respectable individuals, and were most de sirous of inquiry. Earl GREY said, be meant no aspersion on the character of the Magistrates.; but he wished to see it proved, that they bad not in that instance gone be yond the letter of the Law. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, the Manches. ter Magistrates wished for inquiry into their conduct; but, for the sake of the people -attire country, he must resist it. • No man could say that such Meet ings were legal ) , when it was held that numbers Coll stituted force ; and other such language was held, to intimidate the,peaceable subjects of the State. Was that English liberty ? The law now wished for, was, that if Grand Juries threw out Bills, they were to enter into inquiry, to satisfy popular clamour. The meanest subject in this realm tvas greater than the highest is any other State whatever. Proceedings bad been in stituted to compel Magistrates to answer, who had refused to take depositions. If that was right, why institute Parliamentary inquiry? and if wrong, why interfere with the proceedings now .going on in the Court of King's Bench on this- subject ? He was sorry to find Magistrates passing over Publications which they ought to have taken notice of. Much had been said of not reading the Riot Act. Before the 9th of George I. they had laws to disperse un lawful Assemblies ; and, that Act only made all fe lons who did not disperse an hour after the reading of it; but did not abrogate the powers vested by the Common Law in the Magistrates. It was his clearZdistinct, and unqualified opinion, that, accord ing to every .principle of the English Law,. the Meeting at Manchester wa s a n ill ega l Meeting. Lord ERSKINE said, that he was in Bloomsbury- square in the year 1780, just before Lord Mansfield's house was burned down. lie had arms, and should have used them, had that mob attacked him ; but who would say that the mob at that time was simi lar to that of a Meeting for a redress of grievances ? The 'Marquis of LANSDOWN said; if no other person would, he should, iu a short time more for an inquiry into the state of those distresses in the 'country which bad given rise .to so many dreadful occurrences. He could not but express his abhor rence of the mischievous and systematic attempts whitli have, for the last two years, been made to turn the people of this country against the Constitti- 1 tion. That was a .profession of political faith, which ever, public man was called upon to make; and, in his opihion, no public man was worthy of a share in 'the public confidence, if he did not make it. But, while they shewed the people they were not asleep at ' 1 their posts, still they ought not to proceed to mea-, sures of violence,, but to such conciliatory conduct as would allay the ferment which now agitates the; country. He blamed the Noble Viscount (Sid mouth), for receiving . the es-parte statements of two of those Magistrates into whose conduct inquiry was sought to be made, and then ' - round be upheld; but he knew of nothing so likely to bring !heir authority into contempt, as to shew that they might me a discretionary power, without being responsible to Parliament for any indiscreet or proper use of their authority.; A Meeting perfectly legal in its purpose and object, might become illegal by cumulative circumstances; but still it was to be dispersed by legal means ; and if unlawful measures were resorted to, would any one say that inquiry should not be instituted ?—( Hear, hear, - "heer).--• He blamed the arrest of Hunt in the midst of an in _ _ flamed _ and numerous Public Meeting, which, for aught he knew, had produced all the unhappy con sdeiqeuaersntcetsimtheartofromlloawn try in contention evithyedthYeeaayrs,neodthmeseaPenperyialplleylbtorfuo.thau!shtchtot'efre.ionr. fore, of - vast coutotquence to satisfy the people of this country, that Parliament did not lose sight of their safety, nor forget that they owed them protection,.... 'Whatever he might think of the leaders of the Radi cals, who had taken advantage-of the distresses of the times to prey on the people, still the danger did not proceed from them, but horn a growing belief to the minds of the middling classes, that the Institu. tions of the country were not sufficiently perfect to secure their interests. It was only by inspiring con. 'fidence in these Institutions, that they could expect to succeed in the present momentous crisis; or save the country from falling into the hands of wicked and factious men. By such means it was, and by chewing that justice and protection should be extended to all, without distinction, that the country could be saved from ruin and destruction. But Government was giving most cause for discontent, when it with. drew from a highly respectable Nobleman its confi dence—a Nobleman, who was best calculated to sof ten down the acrimony which might subsist between the People and the Government. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, it was not his In tention ti, go at length at that time into the proceed ings at Manchester. But he would defy the Noble Marquis to shew him an instance in which such pro ceedings becaMe the subject of Parliamentary in quiry ; and, indeed, lie did not see how it could, without suspending all proceedings in C r oons of Law, which had, in fact, not only - begun, but were advanced in a train of fair and judicial investisation,i With respect to the letter of thanks to the Magistrates at Manchester, certainly his Majesty's Ministers were as much parties to it as was his Noble Friend (Sid mouth). But the Government would not have been a party to that letter, had it not been fully convinced, that by ficts, which could not be controverted; the conduct of the Magistrates was worthy of praise ; and he would maintain that there never was a case which obtained a more thorough investigation tbau did that, betbre the letter was written which had called down the obloquy of the Noble Lords. Let any man remember the marching, in military array, of bodies of i.x0,000 men, some armed with sticks and staves, with banners inscribed,,," Equal Representa• tion, or Death ;" which he would not only maintain wag illegal, but treasonable, as far as attempting their purpose by threats and intimidations. But these were called legal Meetings. He would ask when such proceedings bad taken place till within these two years? There was no attempt to stifle this mat ter, for the Magistrates might have been proceeded against either criminally or civilly. Bills were pro. sented, and ignored by the Grand Jury. Yet the, heard nothing now of the excellence of Trial by Jury, from those Noble Lords who were formerly so much in the habit of eulogizing it. The real fact seemed to be, that an attempt was made to beat down the Ma. gistrates. He trusted that the number of the dissa tisfied was small; but he knew that all Revolutions were produced, not by the numbers of the disaffect ed, but by the fears of the loyal. The only good they could therefore do, was to give confidence to the Magistrates, and protection to the loyal. The Marquis of LANSDOWN said, the opinion of the Grand Jury, as to the conduct of .the Yeo manry, could not be a declaration of their opinion of the Magistrates, under whose orders the Yeomen acted. It could be no disparagement to the Magis trates to have a Parliamentary inquiry into their conduct, when it was remembered that the Lord Provost of Edinburgh, and the first Magistrates of Scotland, had been brought to the Bar of Parliament, to account for their conduct. The Earl of CARNARVON could not agree to the doctrine, that to refuse all inquiry, and to ap. plaud the conduct of the Magistrates, whether right or wrong, would be the proper way to allay the dan. gerous discontent which, it was admitted, prevailed in the country. Ministers themselves, by t4-ing upon them to approve of the conduct of the civil and mi litary forte at Manchester, had given food for that discontent and dislike of the existing institutions.. From all he had heard out of doors and in that House, there appeared to him to be the most ample grounds for inquiry. The Noble Lords, who would prejudge nothing, had declared the Manchester Meeting to be illegal, and even treasonable. If so, how did they justify their conduct in suffering Meet. logs; equally treasonablei l ha llano v cw i h n es g dti s ed i r m , i t l oi ar illibe b ster a h n e n isd e i rs uevs a teif ail miththfiaet °1 Southfield? fdoe:tonraistht in ions ith suffering the publishing., for months, o f The Meelksa, h ch and otherc a ll e dinfamous n t he and 4e trea so nable t°nigi' lhe publications, wh i ch ns,w People to take up arms, and not only bring Minis. tens, but Illustrious Persous to the scaffold ? If they have found the law, as it now stands, inefficient to the correction of such abominable proceedings, he would agree to an extension of the law to meet the present exigency. If they failed to take all lawful means to suppress such infamous publications, their responsi bility must be great indeed. B u t i ns t ea d o f prose cuting such wicked and factiou s c h arac t ers , Minis ters had wreaked their puny ven g e ance on a N o bl e Earl, who only wanted that to hallow his fame, ribose only crime was a constitutional attempt to renew the harmony and good understanding that used to exist between the higher and lower orders in this country. He hoped they would not punish the deluded People, wißthouciclN of th eir thavGinHgA duty fiNrsuttuaid.tte,mpted to, brinngethmemarqbauisckof u to a sense that he had hoard, " - _ were on ' th me e di e l e f n o t r s th a e t se m ev a i n ll c , }le w s l t tl r eLh el y Constitution threatened with clteeti)elsrvetlenirYtttsiic:hetmia:u:niri,dilegearlr:iii'dl;ll?‘iliii,' s d ee rel n sll, p ec e r to so inot n ue s snet t s h :l r l e e a sn te 9_, ; d , oend a . n_ c d oin, dning.their duty. For these reasians he shonhl e the Amendment, and support the original AZ!' 125..:---Adjourned at Half -past Twelve. HOUSE OF COM MOXS. At a quarter past two o'clock Sir Tomtit Tv rat e of the Black Roil, sununoned th e atten d ance of the c lots; the House of Peers, to b ear th e S peech from the Those. On the return of the SPEAKER, he cconunica.ted House, that during the recess he had issued Writs for IL' of Members of Parliament for the following' s Counties of Longford, Kent, lierts, and Kinross • Hereford and Chichester ; an d the liciroophs a A; Banbury. Twenty-one new Members took the Oaths zna A new Writ was ordered for Peterborough, in eke the Hon. Wm. Lamb, who, since his Election, has the Stewardship of the Chiltern nundrials. The Clandestine Outlawry Bill was, accordinz to read a first tinsel THE PRINCE REGENTS SPEECH. The SPEAKER having conitnunicated to House his attendance in the House of Peen, copy of the Prince Regent's Speech, which he procured, to avoid mistakes,—(See flee Lord 4.) The lion. Mr, SO3IERIS COCKS said, • as he did, in the sentiments contained in the just read, and approving, as he did, the rile. adopted by :Ministers, he rose, with pleasure, r an Address, in answer to the Sp( ech. On pic contained its it, there could be no dir:ercnce opinion, he meant in the regret espressel at the , tinuation of his Majesty's indisposition. The at pic was of a different character. He need not mind the House that they were assembled at an usual season, in consequence of the di which had occurred in 'satire parts of the nor need he remind them that the eyes of the country were now, in a particular manlier, dii towards that House. The Hon. Gentleman ceeded to comment on the late proceedings h turbed districts, and to enlarge on the excellt our Constitution, and to contend that it was , our first duties to rally round, and de,end th stitution. He thought whatever political e.ii Might prevail on either side of the flet,e. feeling and this opinion all would he 1111,111in' He contended that a. systematic attempt made by certain individuals, to undermine and throw that Constitution; .and all the acts :mil sures adopted by Ministers, had been adopted a view to the defence and support of our Coti Lion and olsti customs. In peaceful times he w: to see'fair and open opposition to Ministers, suspicion on the part of the People, whereter rights and liberties were concerned; but at • he would ask, had those-who had been most nent in their opposition been actuated by any principles? Was it not, rather, apparent that object had been to alienate the affections of People from the Government? And to effect ;hi ject, was it not notorious that these leaders of had studied to increase and aggravate the , of the lower classes in the Manufacturing Dist In the course of their proceeding., they had h quently used the word Reform," but what dui mean ? He seas no enemy to moderate ration:ll E. form ; but the word in the mouths of these pc:. who talked, tip` Universal Suffrage and Annual liaments, was nothing less than a cunt term tot I volution. In the Meetings which had bee„ he:d these individuals, was it not notorious that tier been regularly organized ; that the multitude had proceeded from town to town in systematic orde in marching order, with flags and banns, be.t:h inscriptions wholly inconsistent with the safety of the loyal and well-disposed put u the ..,:::- munity? On the subject of the transactions took place at Manchester, he wished to refram fro:a giving any opinion at_present—(flear, hear). filr. he must be permitted to say, that he saw milling :a the transactions which induced him to think the in quiry should be taken out of the usual channel. lie was also of opinion that no individual, eTecially a Magistrate, should be put upon his tiial, unless epee Bills returned by a Grand Jury: and he must strongly deprecate public opinions expressed by Pub lic Meetings upon subjects like this, whi' tion was pending before the regular trio Honourable Gentlemat then adverted t, the Speech which alluded to the increase litary force. It was a 'subject of severe in a time of peace abroad a measure shr for at home which had a tendency to tion; but the loyal, well-disposed, and peaceable part of the community, had a claim on us for protection; and he could not but consider that strong measures would be best calculated to restore and preserve the peace of the country. He expressed his hopes that the measures already adopted by Government would have the desired effect; and concluded by moving an Address, which was, as usual, an echo of the Speech. Mr. EDWARD OUST, in seconding the Addiess, said he should be obliged to apply for more than or dinary indulgence, as this was the first time he had attempted to speak in pUblic, his eatly habits not permitting him to practice public speaking; and again, as he had nothing to offer in excuse for his presumption in taking the present duty upon him. The eyes of the Country were now upon their pro ceedings. The example of our venerable Sovereign —his virtues, his eminent services to this counts, would be long felt. He, it was, who preserved the people of this country, when, during the prograsi of revolutionary principles, that people was about so transfer to the pages. of our own history the follies and eccentric crimes of the French—(Loud cheer;, ' . The House need not be reminded of the bad spirit which now appeared in the country; brow-heating e very Judges on their benches, and abusing all Wfio were placed in an elevated state; and not only • •'ng this, but daring to attack the Throne itself.- - very Member of the Aristocracy was set down as terruptionist, and all were marked as enemies, save the Democrats who happened to wear white hats, and who had lungs strong enough to make speeches --"veon. Fr - which ngnirin~in tots d h ear d )n, a n d h a .tn lurde. - ed, f hind.] oppo,. , a,tl 01.1; 411:11 Ad .e 1 t u n ' es° me vimutra,L,, ,e of the (l ots : e I le Throne. at mnicated rri rite for Fick: vacancies . inross ; .ai ( A . 1 r'4.1.16 fie nd tEeir sty;., ,in !le rou t kil )C, tll3 acit, di n to cunc .ic • [TECH. f Heated to .. Perri, read 1 which he h_ 'b Lorth..) nr said, zgrecit), in the Sit e • the mean t , taw re, to ma, )n tl,e Br stt , 3 clitrerance sea at the The um need not 7 bled at an e a disturb. . o the Kingdca t as of the talte antler, dile., eman then;:, lings in thed . a t is Iva-. cne ~end that t_'. E e : tici. House, unant flipt had mine and ovt acts and mt. n adopted va , f our ('otiqtt. Imes he a• 4.• [Misters, and wherever th but at Foe act most prom' td by any s.:. trent that flit:. rections of D effect thiscl ders aseditica t the dist - ring Districts they had fir- iut what did it tc rational Bo these persons, d Annual Pal- a term I'r Ha- d ber,, head Et that they had multitude had ernatic ordar— s tie tat t Ui ishich to refiarn front 'r, hear). Bnt saw uutlting is :o dna the in- channel. lie al, especially a al, unless epee and he must , reseed by Pub- hilst investiga- ribunals. The to that part of of our m- are regret, that could be called increase taxa, anis•NO, .....“, ja C guava ....v aaau 1111Jgb wrung cnougn . tv inakw . r ....,..-- ; :* c ute n mi try n . ds H ot e tri co e n reop erth aa n d we.ul ehe w d .as o n se .o th p - e . m tor e soug an ohptint.o lui on o n:ade this , s - arid ub. the: turning becase h ro e un (th a e an ' N d o d bl e e - had heard nothing which could induce him to think from a waggon. Per the evils which were manifest. their ends is destroying institution in the flying the right of any person in the country forming the Courts of Law were not open to the ineestig a . ing themselves daily around us, remedies were to be for this Meeting, but ii ay i i • 1 the mete gratification of tion of , the conduct of the Manchester Magistrates ; applied, but that was not the refoTe he saw no teatem for larllatrteritary them. Fot,~iis part, he l opportunity to sp a eak : of rash and factions individuals. It was his duty, as a ness of Viscount) bad con het of them Magistrates. He fel Inquiry. Tha r bid seen treason abroad, and the said by a Peer of the Realm, according to the daily subject of a nation long distinguished for devotion to- with the Noble Viscount, that die character of the religion.of the land called a farce, to delude the us- • prints, that there was in the Crown, a dispos h ion to civil liberty, to oppose such asfariona attempts; and Magistrates required. in these dangerous limes, to wary. Were they to pally before they aright re- ,encroaoh on the lib (ties of the Peelle; If such a.l • • - • . • . . . • . . • . , ~ - •• . • . , . . • 1 1 1 1 ;, . ; • • ,r I,t, . C 31 I ~• `~ S- I~