Star. — London, England, 1819-02-20 00:00:00

and s ones •Gaener, Esqs against that for a , had not entered lino their recognizauces. qncstion,l-T re that theprder of the' onse - t he t h o se Petitions be thseharged—being put, '"NNE Moved, that the Debate on that be adjonrned to Tuesday nest, -in order that „ u se mi2;ht be tit possession of the Report of ;oTnniittee which had - just been appointed; before to any decision. —The motion was agreed to. eoveasersr SALE OP GUNPOWDER. kldeim.in WOOD wishea to inquire from the t able Gentleman connected with the Ordnance rent, whether it was true that the Board of ice had lately sold by private contract to Mr. gunpowder to the o pmount of £60,000? wished to know, whether it was usual to such sales of national stores by private con and whether it was for the good of the coun le had no other mods e for his question, than ledge that the sale in question had created j eo ant feeling among the gunpowder manufac i, Cornwall and other parts, who considered or had been undersold. Would the Honour ;ntleman consent to lay the contract of sale the House? K. WARD did not think himstiff bound to the qtiestion on so short a notice, if it was a the intention of creating a debate. But if! .k e dly, he desuld reply, that the sale in ques had been made tinder the express recommenda the Committee of Finance. The Ordnance had done their best to dispose of the property' ,j, ta ntageons manner, and to procure a good w the rablic service. The gunpowder had dd to Mr. Samuel, and Mr. Rochdale, a gen of large fortune, had been accepted as surety payment of the money, under the approba. the Treasury. The property had been sold ;ady money, and the Board conceived that they Ade a good bargain for the public. QUARTER SESSIONS. DICKENSON, after calling the gtention of louse to the great increase of parish and other aess at the Quarter Sessions, and the advantages . would be gained in point of time and saving . expense, by their division, moved for leave to in a Bill to empower Magistrates to divide the of Quarter Sessions. Leave granted. BRITISII CLAIMS UPON FRANCE. CASTLEREAGH said, he was aware that vas, on the other side, a great indisposition to at any length into the subject which he was to bring before the consideration of the House, s*.iouki therefore confine himself to only a few aliens on it. It was known that Conventions ern entered into between the Government of ,untry and the French Government relative w ims of British subjects. A fund had been op ated by that Government for the liquidation of :hints. The Commissioners entrusted with the this measure into execution made consider irogress from that time up to the last year, it appeared a sum of no less than fifty millions ,ecn distributed among the claimants. How in April last, the demands of not only British tins, but also of foreigners, upon the French nment, accumulated to such a degree, that -it ascertained that a sum of no less than from thirty to millions sterling would be required to meet When it would be considered the great length ac which would be necessarily employed in: ali 1g and ascertaining these claims, there appeared cue probability of their soon arriving at a good. . The British Government, under all these cir :ances, entered into an arrangement, the object lch was, that instead of placing the creditors of Ation under the necessity of awaiting the tedious of the investigation at Paris, a round sum was aid, which was agreed to be taken in lieu of all is whatever. It would be seen how beneficial an arrangement must be, in every point of view, is country, which pot us into that condition with :e, that, instead of having with her an open un account, we had an actual money account ; this was in a. great measure owing to the exer ; of a Noble Duke, to whom his country already so much indebted—(Hoir, hear!) The same ailment had agreed to inscribe on the great of its public debt, for the other States of Eu a rade of twelve millions and forty thousand :R, which, by thns separating their claims from of the creditors of this country, left at the dia -1 of each a precise sum to apply to its own sub , To the first Convention we alone were parties. claims were first recognized by the Peace of ens, and confirmed by that of 1814. To the r e were parties in common with the other if Europe, and it related to those parts of the aaent which had been dismembered from France, to other sums due on account of the Isle of ;co the Isle of oil. Lucia, and the lonian Islands. :omitted with Parliament to afford the means tipi., uoning the setts stipulated for this country, .1.1:e hoped would be sufficient to meet the de of; ',fall the claimants. This case was like that the Loyalists of America, and he hoped there ill be but little murmuring at the arrangements had been made. He wished, however, dis ly to apprise those persnns who might be dig-1 !d to speculate in the French or any Foreign, :ks, that they must not calculate upon any future' ril.ence of the Government of this country, or, r.',l that they will embroil themselves to enforce ' which indeed they should not have done instance, but that particular circumstances de :4l.,:d it. e should only say, that this was no eti:iol3l snit, but a judicial one, seeing we ;Li our hands a substantial Om of Money, which t a mo:1 cheering reflection to creditors, than 11- .ik they should have had to deal with Commis 4e, s at Paris, who, hovitver disinterested they Y v, would naturally throw in the way all the .tacks which they could. He should thereforemove leave to bring in a Bill to enable the Commissio s appointed by his Majesty to distribute amongst ;ens havi ng claims on the French -Goterament . turns provided by th e t wo C onven ti o n s Co nc luded' ;:that ,l Gosernment in 1814. TIERNEY pedectly agreed in the teal for public s erv i ce wtth which this measure !hid heen' !ctd. There was , - hdwever, a dlass of claimants , . Tile were eutitlei to some consideration, but who, r-ry not pch,ibly come under the ciperation• of this ciaribution ; he meant those ?arsons who had not hiven due notiee of their chum on the French Go.:' `el - lulu:at. lie akereacaded t that they were at least • • • ••• ',Stifled Os-a-share of-the- surplu s whiarreilidoed i tee the recognized' creditors Itatirbeen. sauteed. I A conversation then took 'place bedreen Lord CAI. TLEREAOH, Mr. TIEJINFY, Sir JOHN NEWPORT, . and Mr. DENNISON, in which the Noble Lord, in reply to , a question from Mr. TIVINEY, as to how the two years which the French Government were in , arrear were to be accounted for? said, that that Govern ment had agreed to pay a million annually for fives years, of which three were punctually paid ; but the , time allotted for discharging the other two years being fist limited to nioe months, was afterwards ex tended to eighteen, and finally to two years and three months ; so that at the end of that time the whole of the principal, with interest at five per cent. would be discharged. He, at the sanie time, admitted the propriety of appropriating to the discharge of tint claims of those who had not been recognized, the surplus that might remain over and above paying the other creditors. The Right Honourable Gentle man had said,.that the whole sum to be had from the French Government would never reach this country, but be expended in keeping in repair the fortresses on the frontiers of Holland. Could he be ignorant of the purchases which had been made of valuable Colonies in the West Indies from the Dutch? In, truth, if he had seriously apprehended that so large a sum as two millions had been misapplied, it was an. indirect reproach upon him Tor having suffered it, and this was now a late season to inquire into it. A distinction had been drawn, insinuating that Govern ment had shewn a greater pat tiality for the holders of funded property than mercantile claimants.— The business of investigation might be accelerated with regard to Waded property ; but it was quite different with mercantile property, where it was ob vious the claims of individuals conld not be so easily ascertained. The present was a question in which not only the claimants were interested, but the public in general. It ought to be recollected, that seques trations took place on both sides of the water ; and that if British subjects had suffered by them in France, French subjects had suffered by them in England. Considerable property had been seques tered in 1793; but in 1794 or 1795, the law which . , sanctioned such a measure was repealed. It was not to be expected, and he wished it to be distinctly un derstood, that the British Government should identify itself with the speculations of individuals. Upon those claims which appeared fair and well founded, 1 a respectable body of individuals would adjudicate; and he had no doubt that all due consideration would be given to the subject, so as to effect an equitable adjustment on both sides. Sir JOHN NEWPORT observed, that the pro perty of British individuals had, in many cases, been sequestered in France, contrary to ,the law of nations. Leave given. Sir ROBERT WILSON, in rising• to ask one or two questions of the Noble Lard opposite (Castle reagh) disclaimed any wish on his part to impute undue motives to the Noble Lord. His sole object was to vindicate the character of the country from any imputation that we had' pledged oilrselves to measures with regard to other nations, which we would not sanction in our own. The Noble Lord had. not thought proper, when laying before the House the Treaty entered into by this country at Aix-la-Chapelle with the Allied Powers. to furnish any information upon it, but contented himself with stating, that he would be ready to state such pareiCu lars respecting it as any Member might feel desirous to know. The Treaty he alluded to was that which professed to be for the maintenance of the peace of Europe, and this should have his cordial assent, were he' not apprehensive that measures had also ' been entered into which might compromise the cha racter of the country. Lord CASTLEREAGH could assure the Honour able Member that no measures had been entered into which had not previously been sanctioned by Par liament. Sir ROBERT WILSON was perfectly satisfied with the explanation of the Noble Lord, and congra tulated the House upon it. SLAVE TRADE. Mr. SMYTII, after making few observations, moved—" That there be laid before this House, Co pies of all Appointments of Commissioners, to carry into execution the Treaties with Spain and Portugal, in the Abolition of the Slave Trade, and of any In structions given to such Commissioners." Lord CASTLEREAGH said, he could have no difficulty in acceding to the motion. He admitted that some delay had arisen in the appointment of Commissioners ; but every means had been used to discover competent persons for the office. Sir C. ROBINSON and Dr. PHILLIMORE spoke at some length upon the question. The former Ho nourable 'Member urged various arguments to prove that no blame could be imputed to Ministers ; and the latter contended, that they were certainly culpa ble for having allowed such a time to elapse befOre any effectual measures were taken. The Treaty had been long allowed to have been executed, and though its provisions might have been practically acted upon in three or four months afterwards, still no Commis sioners had yet been appointed for the purpose; and how many, in the mean time, must have suffered all the barbarous inflictions cf lawless cruelty ! With regard to the difficulty of procuring persons to gd , out on the Coramission, in consequence of the insa lubrity of climate, distance, &c. he could state, that he knew several persons at the bar, perfectly competeut to discharge the duties of the trust, who would have gladly accepted it with all its objections. He knew one person, in particular, who had actually offered himself to go out to the Brazils, but was re ,fused, and told he might go to the HaTannah if he pleased. Negligence, and unnecessary delay, were highly eriminal, at a time when the abominable traffic was carried tin to an extent almost unparalleled. Lord CASILEaEAGH explained. It was quite' impossible for 4./overnment to fill up places which *Pere not in existence by law; and unless Commis slams were Teady •cut and dry, to fill in: every 'va cancy that mitzecur, from time to time, in the' .service of the Ise , cteald not see how it was pos sible to mectantoWespectsuions as the Learited Gen-, apeman -held oat. ELL7CI4 lamented that anydelay should have eaeurredso the seeminationvf the most disgusting' and'alstaninablevysteminwristencil, and ih at that de lay Atuld 'have been Dr:aerated by a Bovernmenk whiCh had acquired sudh aliish.statkp , owthe tions of Europe. • , *ILIVERT:OiIei odd ha could not conceal tho.pleasure which he felt on a perusal of the papers , On thetablei He rejoiced to find a pkdge'ar lengthi kiven, that the Powers of Europe had concurred in the necessity of abolishing the direful trade in slaves. Bin he confessed that his hopes and exultation were considerably damped; by 'smelting that so material' a delay was suffered to exist between the Zeterrnina tion of efficient measures and their execution, and he lamented that England; above all, the first to raise her voice and her hand in the cause of humanity-- , that she should hare been accessary to a delay of a most vital measure, Outing Which the foul and abo minable traffic was going on. He lamented also, that there was not that alacrity in suing for places in the - Commission, which appeared to guide Candi dates upon other occasions. Mr. MARILYATT said, he was enabled to shew, by dispatches from a high authority, that with regard , to Sierra Leone, it was a climate which could not be. borne by an European. But itsinsalubrity was only one of the objections against this residence. It was altogether useless a.% a means of suppressitsg the Slave. Trade. As to thAfieans of causing other Powers to, abandon the Slave Trade, it could only be done by peaceableand amicable means. Such was the advice of the Judge of the Admiralty, who held that no one nation lu:d a right to enter into a Moral crusade against another country, by forcing an observance of any law which it might enact for a general good.-- The whole conduct, therefore, of his Majesty's Ga vernment, in this respect, was just and wise. TheATTORNEY-G EN URAL vindicated his Ma jesty's Government againit the imputation of having neglected to establish competent Courts abroad to suppress the trade; because it was a very difficult thing to find Gentlemen who were competent to be Judges of those Courts, and willing to take on them selves the offices. He detested the Slave Trade as much as any man, but if that trade was to be checked it could be checked in no other way except according to law. _ • Mr. W. WYNNE said, he understood that it would be no difficult thing to procure competent persons to execute the law in foreign settlements ; and he hoped all the Courts and all the offices would be filled up immediately; for he understood that many respecta ble and quali Heti pe► : sons were ready to accept of them. Lord CASTLEREAGH assured the Honourable Gentleman that Government was using every possibly degree of expedition in making the arrangements in question. The Motion was then put from the Chair, and agreed to.—Adjourned at Eleven o'clock. TILE WINDSOR ESTABLISHMENT. The following is the Report of die Committee of the House of Commons, to whom the Establishment of her late MAJESTY, and the E.tisnate of the Ex penses of the proposed Esfablishment of his MAJES TY'S future Household at Windsor, were referred: " Your Committee have deemed it to be their duty, in the first place, to take into their consideration the arrangement which. has been proposed for the future Establishment of his Majesty. " By the Act of the 52d Geo. 11/. c. 8, the sum of £loo,ooo' was directed to be set apart annually out of the Civil List, for the expense of the King's Household ; and any surplus, after de fraying this charge, was to be applied to the purposes of his Mae jeety's Civil Establishment. " It appears to your Committee, that the Reduction which Is proposed in that expenditure, of One Half, may with proptiety be made • and that au annual sum of £ lO,OOO will be sufficient to provi de fel this seriior ; and they refer to the Estimates, un der the different heads, annexed to this Report. " In censidering the scale and expense of the Establishment which it is necessery to form, while they approve of the discos. tinuance of the salaries of certain of the Officers of Sr.te. who have hitherto, since his Majesty's indisposition, been retained, yet your Committee rec mmt nd, that, at the head of the Estab lishment, ae Officer of the rank of Oroom of the Stole should . be placed, as they deem it important to have a person of rank and of high station connected with the King. service, generally residirg near his Majesty's person. For the same reasons it ap peals expedient, that one of the King's Equerries (the number of whom, lathe judgmea of the Committee, ought to 1w limited to four) should be in daily and conatent attendance at Windsor. " In the examination of the Estimate*, fur defeeying the charge of the proposed Tables, and fur the other branches of expenditure at Windsor, your Committee-have received satis factory explanations respecting them from Colonel Stephenson, to whom the superintendence of the King'. Hpusellulti has been in a great degree confided. " Ic appears to them, that the Estimates hive been framed for the services to which they arc to be applied, with a due attention to eeenomy ; and they refer particularly to the explanatory statement of the Esti:nate for the Expense of his Majesty's Household,' which is annexed.. A large portion of the expense which, as your Committee are informed, cannot be estimated at less than nue-third of the whole amount, will be at all events to be incurred by the maintenance of Windsor Castle as a Royal residence, and ought not to be set down as exclusively belonging to the establishment of his Majesty. " The names and descriptions of the Officers, whose salaries have been discontinued, will be found in the Appendix, toge ther with a List of the menial Servants who have been reduced ; and the amount of the wages and appointments which the latter received in the King's-service. "Your Committee next proceeded to the subject of the Es tablishment of her late Majesty, which had been referred to their consideration. " His Royal Highness the Prince Regent having been pleased, by his gracious Message, to place at the disposal of Parliament, the sum of .658,000 per annum, in consequence of her Majes ty e demise, and at the same time to recommend to the house of Commons the claims founded on the faithful services of those who formed the separate Establishment of her Majesty, in or 'der that the House might be enabled to judge what part of that sum it may be advisable to apply to the annual provision for such permits, your Committee have obtainedgecounts of such allow , anew as were made to the of and servants of Queen Mary, conker demise in the yew 1694 ; of Queen Caroline in 1737 ; and to the household of the Princess Dowager of Wales in 177 e; astountlng annually, for the Et tablislunent of Queen Mary, to s£lss7B 16s. bd.—to that of Queen Caroline, to £19,812-, sod for the Household of the Princess Dowager of Wales, to 1te1e,702 78. 10d. " The Grants, in the instances referred to, were not brought. under the consideration or view of Parliament, bat were paid out of the Civil List Revenues; an annual saving of these Re venues baying been made by the discontinuance of the respective Royal Establishments to a greater extent than those allowatices amounted to. In the year 1782, by the Act passed fur the reeu- Ittion of the Civil Liu, the amount of pensions to be granted out of the Civil List Revenges was limited, and its comequenee of that limitation, and the present charge on the Pension Lee, it is not pessible to place such allowances as it may be wished to • tto the Qenis Servants upon that fund; but the whole Ism of sesB,Oug which was annually paid to the Queen, bee.% Row at the disposal of Parliapteet, it remains for Parliament ta stake such provision, in this respect, es it may In its libera lity think Et. In offering for the consideration of the House the annexed iteile of Pensions recomtneaded fur the Servants of her late Ma jesty, while your reptunittee have hadeteriew the etpectations which these pgrsous may reasonably have entertained, as to the prevision which wnuld• be made for them when their services cease, :they •yet:feel it to he their duty to eehmit to the House, that this recommendation should rot be drawn into re.. rattent; airthe formation of future establishments. • • 34 leveillbleolnetweilethat,the State Officers, as well as some . others, to whom their salaries were cuntinued fur life, in the. Ligetancet referred•to, do not appear in the list whleh is proposed.+ gamed rine*. *Mich Am been • adopted in feeneie.l its eto suggest a previa= Per the Fe male pact rat tAt i ilbusehold, ad for tale dome cers and Menials, ofethom silt Oth ' • the greater proportion hare been for many years, and during chi ! course. of a long reign, attacifed to het service; the anour.t et this providon, together with the pensions to be continued toss* as were the objecte of her Majesty's benevolence, is less than was given upon the two last ot•cssions which have been noticed, without taking into account the dillerence in the value of money at those periods and at tin. pre.ei.t. Ak If l'arliamrit shalt approve of what has been here submit tM, legislative enactments will be required to carry these r.-gl. Names into effect, It will be neeLssary to alter that part of the Act of the 52d Geo.. 111. cap.‘B, which appoints the attenderns on the King's person, and also to regulate Cie sum to be hi future appropriated for dJraying the expense of his Majesty's IlOusehold.• That claims aka of cite Act of the el6th Gee.. Ili. c. 4G, which enacts, that whenever the charge upon the Civil List shall axceed in any one year, X 1,100,000, an account of the exceeding, end the cause thereof, shall he laid before Parliament, mast be amended, so as to require a similar account toic soh. emitted; whenever that charge shall eicesd the amount to which abe expenditure of the Civil List shall be limited by the radius. ions which are new proposcd.—February 17, 1619," • WES TMIN:S TER ELECTION,' It SIXTH DAY. • • Tiaterclay, the state of the Poll was declared at ibesesnal,hour, when the numbers were as follow :-- Mr. LAU* - 1542 Mr. Iloamousa - 1016 Major CARTIVIRIMIT - t Mr. HOBIIOIJSE observed, the coalition had not been so successful to-day as they were yesterday. Then they were near 400 a-head on the day's poll—, they were 592 a-head," several voices exclaimed) — to-day they had gained but 145. Yesterday he un derstood a public breakfast had been given to the electors in the interest of Mr. Lamb ; to-day, so far as he was at present informed, there had been nothing of the kind, and this might account for the falling off which he had noticed. At the same time he 'could assure those he addressed, that the coalition had not at all relaxed in their canvassing; the pairs of Whigs and Tories went abroad as before, and be sides measures were adispted by the friends of Mr. Lamb, such as he believed had never been resorted to, in any former election, but by Tories in opposi. tion to a Whig Candidate. He was informed that a • certain Nobleman had gone about that day, with the Steward of another Nobleman, to call on the tenants of those Noblemen, to intimidate them,—for it could not be called persuading them—to vote for Mr. Lamb, whose cause their landlords had espous ed. This was certainly not the way in which a . free and popular election should be conducted :Web was said of the disgrace brought on the City of Westminster by the junto of tradesmen acting for them as their Committee; but he would ask if they had ever acted the part which the Whig Candidate was now acting? Did they ever send a Nobleman, or the Steward of a Nobleman, to canvass the renters of particular Noblemen? Did they ever give public brekfasts? Did they ever let loose on the Electors the persons employed at the public offices; or send among them to compel theft votes, the servants of the Secretaries of any of the Departments in the State? No: none of these things could be imputed to the Committee. Mr. Lamb had yesterday told them, that it was a pity he joked so much ; and had said, that from what he had gleaned out of common place books, and he knew not where, he had become a second Joe Miller. It was curious that he (Mr. Hobhouse) could not please that Honourable Gentle man, let him do what he would. The day before yesterday, he (Mr. Hobhouse) had not been witty enough for his opponent. Yesterday his complaint was, that be had become too jocose, and the Ilonour. able Gentleman did not like his humour at all. He (Mr. Lamb) had then made a display of his own wit; and when a Gentleman came forward to prove what he had said on the subject of . Parliamentary Reform, he had hailed that rer,pectable person as a the spruce Mr. Clark,"' and made a joke of his trade. If this was the best wit he could produce, he (Mr. Hob !loose) must give up studying wit under him, and put himself to school under some other master.- -The Honourable Gentleman, on coming there, had proclaimed himself a friend to Reform in Parliament, yet when asked a question respecting the Rotten 80. rolighs, he had not sufficiently studied it to be able to give an answer, and he was so angry with the Gentleman who had extracted this truth from him, that he had called him a spy. This charge he had no right to prefer against a man for asking him an honest question in an open manner; nor ouvht he to have sported his jokes at his being, as he said, a bar. bef. The friends of Mr. Lamb asserted that he (Mr. Hobhouse) wished to limit within narrower bounds the tight of voting—he wished to extend it ; they said he wished it to stop short of the householders—he was willing that it should go further ;—would they say as much for their plan ? Then they said he was not for Annual Parliaments ; he had declared that he had no objection to them. It was then said that he had no plan for stopping 'the corruption of the State. Now, he would ask them if they had any in• tension of cutting up altogether the Rotten Boroughs, and destroying the influence which certain great Families exercised in Elections ? Let the Whigs state distinctly their views on these two points. In con. elusion he declared that the misconceptions which had existed with respect to himself among the Flee tors, were rapidly clearing up, and now that it was seen that the Court was more active than the Whigs themselves to procure the return of his opponent, it could not be doubted that both parties were in fact united to prevent the Electors of Westminster from acting for themselves, in order to make their City, as formerly, a Borough divided between the two factions. Mr. LAMB spoke, but from the tumAilt which pre vailed, but little of what he said could be heard. He referred them to the state of the poll, from which it would be seen that he was 526 a-head of his opponent. That the majority was-not greater is his favosir arose from his friends'having been too sanguine in their expectations of what would be done : without their in dividual interference. This was the only danger that he had to apprehend ; he could oaly lose by their being too secure. He wished to guard them against this, as though they bad noW a very good chance of gaining the day, they might be assured that the bat tle was yet to be fought. Mr. Hobhcusc had said Oat he could not please him. This was act correct.. He was very much pleased with all the speeches he had made ;•iuce the commenceraent of the Election, as he was confident they had been of essential service ,to his 01r. Lamb's) cause. If Mr. Hobhouse and his Committee did not give the Electors public breakfasts, they treated them with. flags and music ; and if the themthe former, tobe, v‘ theyaLe ectrs iii p te re n fe ige rre u d t b th o e dy lat h t e er t t o o ck i• i ,1 I 11 l' I 1 I' • aglietl; on the : thvz I W 3 1 . be .110 10 Comp cartle " Go , gr. ; ,moral ,prtmc I ,bance also 's.e sac any He knowl ,3 is they , Lica! the R. aer th with • L aaket or . . had I of tb laird la ' ado for bt:: sold exaaw of for the p i o n of tl for ready k i d made Mr. D de Hous 114:less which wo of elpen eing in Court of Lord I ere wa rater at bout to and he s observati lad bee Lris tour de clain ropriatr these cli enr ..g able prc when it kad det wet-, in ti:mant Goreran Tal rice to ..mty then. 1 ranging tic: btu malt. =war rhicl nati result rptcirie, claims , loch an to this France, setled and thi toas of re so book u. e, franc', those fusal Frs. Oar c. other Gonda • t , F;anci L: riy 01 app of the woald vehich tie Peif erv‘ ; :l LiSi ; tAg to r.ay C.ista fir le Lets p erect. tray Ciqrl hiVel `era