Star. — London, England, 1809-03-15 00:00:00

4incss . I-k thought it even necessary to cc-rue to i'eke el without delay, on the guilt or innocence of ij„i 4e; and that it was contrary to the dignity of H m se, not to come to one or other distinct de coli.F. observed, that there was no doubt mind that the Duke of York had been guilty cf ciiminal connivance and corruption ; and he rea dy w meet the alternative of the Honourable , :e al erl'nsite' and to say, that his Royal High „as g uilty of corruption in the ext r e me .— iv men had been convicted, and led to the gallows less conclusive evidence than that which ap. against his .Royal Highness. He believed, the Duke of York, from toe first to the last, had : etiare of the corruption that had been proved to The speech of his Honourable Friend (Mr. ; t hread) had, in his opinion, fully and clearly red t h a t point. For his own part, he was an Tee to corruption in every shape, and was con that if the country uas to be saved, it must meeting and overthrowing corruption th at t h e dr.:tien of Ow country was to be effected. He had with attention to the Right Hon; Gentleman had just spoken, but was not convinced by any i eriment that had been used by hint. Entertaining t if opinion therefore, which he did on the subject be. f i je He se, he could not assent to any proposi wiecil would have the effect of deciding that the Du k e o f lurk was not guilty of corruption or conni raece at corruption. ei e WINDHAM had abstained Trom delivering hi s se ntiments hitherto to the House, upon the very impute a subject them under its consideration, be owe he bad been desirous of profiting by the opi eicre, the judgment, and the abilities, of those repose authority was of most value in that House. hic felt that it was desirable for him to collect, in the course of the discussion, the varying opinions of the afercnt Members upon this important, delicate, and ttillicult question, before he should venture to offer an y vim of his own upon it. If he ventured to state :my opinion upon the subject, it was because of the crisis of the proceeding at which the House had arrived ; because of the mode of proceeding wiiich was next proposed to be adopted ; and be cause very erroneous opinions had been formed eielt that mode of proceeding. But before he buld enter into this consideration, it would first to necessary to consider what was the actual state of t:-.e question. Statements had been made to that House, rather than charges, which imputed rniconduct to the Commander in Chief. An in spiry at the Bar of the House had been the con segreuee, end fair modes of proceeding had sub scgnentiy been recommended. —An Address to his Majesty had been cm iginallv proposed, sug geeieg what measure should he .u.l.opted ; then came tae Rcsclutien of the Right Honourable Gentleman, e t.e Chancellor of the Exchequer), acluitting his rleyal Highness altogether ; the thiid course was tiett proposed by the Right Hollow able Gentleman ea the ticor (Mr. Bathurst), and the last was the Address of the lionourable Gentleman (Mr. Bankes) containing an opinion respecting the conduct of the Commander in Chief, and differing upon the whole from the original Address. With either of these modes of proceeding he was ready tQ concur, though e could not assent to all, because, though he should L et object to any one, it would not follow that one mode may be preferable to all the others. It had Deed said, that according to the amendment of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of thc Exchequer), in order to a correct judgment upon thc case, they should come to a vote upon the cor ruption or connivance of the Duke of York, and then adept some measure of redress ; but not to involve the two questions together. It was for the House to consider how far the documents laid down justified that course ; but he was confident that they would Lot deliver any opinion upon the subject, unless they should divide the question into the several heads el:ich it contained. Upon a question of peace or war, it was not possible to decide, unless the various sabordinate questions respecting treaties and other k:ser considerations should be previously and dis tinctly decided upon. But it might be said, that the daily practice of all deliberative assemblies was against tl,is opinion. Yet in judicial proceedings this ought to be the practice. It the House were to be called cpon to decide upon the question of coiruption or coenivanc.2 —if to agree to an address for the remo nftlle Commander in Chief, why should it not geinto the consideration of Sanden's case, of Colonel French's levy, and of all the other transactions upon which it was in the aggregate to decide ? Thinking, ticrefore, differently 'upon this subject from his I-lon. fecnd( Mr. C. Wynne) who had spoken that night,that the Delo: of York was not to be condemned ; thinking deo, as a judicial question there would be an end o it, if that opinion stiOuld be entertained by the i - 10u , ,e; he could not, however, consider himselt bar ree ;earn giving his opinion upon the question upon any futore occasion. He was glad in that part of the ci,c to give expression to his judgment. It was his intention VI observe only in a cursory manner upon ter: evidence u p on w hi c h t h e case reste d ; an d h ere I.: must notice the objections that had been made to vdi.,us particular parts of that evidence ; but it was ne: from any particular part, but, from the whole, 11 : 1 : die value of the evidence was to be. estimated. As die diseases of the human frame, which surpassed al skill no remove, were the "opprobia medicortun," e:e imperfections of evidence, which no human (eitild prevent, were the " ofifirdia juris. consul- The Learoed Judge oply.site (Mr. Burton) 1;:n; slid, that the evidence of an accomplice was or r 3 wlee, unless all the parts of it bore immediately up(di toe guiit or innocence of the prisoner. In this lie could net take upon him to say, that the gtateMent 110 t correct, though he was of opinion, that the e , Nlmilid not be in all cases partially consider- It had then been laid down as sound doctrine, tLitthe "evidence of an accomplice ought not to be ce:ved, miles; corroborated by unimpcached testi rr.nny. \Vas it meant by this, that the evidence of such a wits:ess was to be proved by other means ? 1 - - p , n this head, his Honourable Friend did not appear aim to have been altogether correct, when he said taat.cridencc was to be judged of by its internal ere but the result of all the doctrine upon the o'cl was, that though the testimony of an accom w;is impaired by that circumstance, his credibi 'lY vould not be destroyed. His Learned Friend Samuel Romilly ) had asserted, that persons had ck,utienmeti and suffered upon such testimony, zhncss• witl ; 'AU Howe, 11l COKE his mind ci itnir r: a s ready to r 1, r.ll 01`1 111 s' 1‘ as gtt V id or men ha, upon less col . x , a red a qa;ns I : 1 I t the Duke b.:en :11v.tre of 6:ct• The sr h o xed that r ca m cont t incLiJ, that ii hs mating alai; n of tht . ; ,red with a had just p 6 ument that ex opinion the ti:c 1 - 1.; us u oy. wi.ich ivot Doke of lurk y a y.ce ccrrtt WIND hls sentiments i mpu tgia subj cause he bad :liens, the p i whose author' He felt that it co urse of the aferent Mcml difficult questi a ny view of h stue any opini of the crisis had arrived ; v.i;:cl; was ne cause very t. a f ro that TM buld tinter be ni.cessary of 1: - .e quest that House, rni , cond act tC q iiiry at the segreuce, Ity.c] scqnentiy bet h:s Majesty ges.ing N% I. at ti - e 2 RcsclutitA t t.,e Chancel: tat plopesed ea the door Address of th containing at Commander i from the on modes of prot could not. rot Object to wile may be U.; said, tha Right Hon. C but these men had not biten•Comnrandera in Chief. p The present case rested upon a certain fraction of., evidence ; but nu .Honou r able M em b er h ad said, 1 that it was impassible to submit evidence to a geadu- • ation, as a thermometer, or to any exact rule. Though a person may not give testimony under the sanction of an oath, there was nearly the same reason to expect the truth, as if the testimony were given upon oath ; because a person, who would falsify in one case, would be likely not to tell the truth in the other. As la the imputation cast on the evidence of Mrs. Clarke, that she was actuated by a vindictive motive, she was in that respect to be judged of by her demea nour, and the inherent qualities of her manner, and her testimony. Her evidence had been given with a levity and a flippancy, which he admitted to have been highly unbecoming. She appeared to have lost that, the lass of which almost implied every thing— she hart lost the sense of shame. With the loss of shame, she must necessarily have lost a great part of her good qualities, though it did not necessarily follow that she should have lost all sense of virtue. The dexterity which she had displayed in giving her testi mony was a dangerous quality. 'But he was afraid that the s p irit of fibbing, which she h a d man if este d, had spread widely, and was generally felt. But the carelessness with which she had given her testimony was such as to make him receive her evidense with extreme distrust. Having thus stated what he had to object to the witness on one hand, he must agree with hisLeanied friend (Sir S. ROMILLY), that though Mrs. Clarke was capable of telling a story, yet her evidence was not wholly to be discredited. By the promptness and unpremeditated character of her tes timony, she appeared to have given a true evidence— to have delivered it in a sort of running hand—to have paid it in bullion. She left it completely open to investigation, and left the House to consider how far it was overcome by facts, and the opinion that was entertained of her character. And here it might be necessary to guard against the facility of her evidence 1 , assuming the air of truth, because she had only to walk fearlessly over her course, where she had only to detail conversations which had taken place between her and the Duke of York. She told all she knew, and, therefore, he contended, that in the whole of her evidence she was open to examination ; and the inaccuracies of her testimony, instead of being circumstances to impeach her credit, went to confirm it. When she had hardly time to premeditate; there had arisen, as it were out of the grave, circumstances to corroborate her evidence. As to the contradiction between her testimony and that of Mr. Knight, re specting the date of the transaction about thf ex change, he was not surprised that such a difference should exist. Either party might be wrong, but with out positive proof be could not admit that the state ment of Mi. Clarke was less correct than that of the -other party. With respect to the contradiction as to an injunction to secrecy, Mrs. Clarke might as well be right as Mr. Knight, because the answer as stated • by that Gentleman might have been given rather to the inference than to the fact. She certainly could have no reason to wish that her influence should be divulged. She had no occasion to feel it necessary that her interference should be known : Niltit me scire prodest, nisi me scire hoc sciat alter. As to the evidence of Miss Taylor, it was the oppo site of that of Mrs. Clarke. Miss Taylor had a good character and gave bad evidence ; Mrs. Clarke, on the contrary, had a bad character and gave good evi dence. It was not, however, to he supposed that Miss Taylor would have given up her school and her pro spects in life, in order to give testimony in favour of Mrs. Clarke. She appeared, nevertheless, in the situation of a person influenced by Mrs. Clarke.— The course, however, that had been pursued to in validate her testimony, by examining into the cir cumstar.ces of her family and birth, he eould not but condemn ; and he could not con--. 1- Ler the less credible a witness, because of any thing that could have been discovered in such an inquiry. As to the circumstance of the note respecting Major Tonyn, he did not think that made any thing against the Duke of York. Another general topic which had been touched upon was, that the Duke of Yolk must have suspected the practices of Mrs. Clarke, knowing, as he did, the sums he allowed for the support of the esta blishment at Gloucester-place. The Duke of York had been guilty, certainly, of a thing which could not be justified, in forming an immoral connection, which led to those consequences upon which the presump tion injurious to his character was founded. He did not know but this might be sufficient to call for his removal, as many were of opinion that as " Ccsar's wife must not he even suspected," so the ad ministration of the different departments of the State should b: above suspicion. He conceived that the Ad dress of his Honourable Friend (Mr. Banker) did convey the sentiments of those who only thought that sonic degree of suspicion attached to those transac tions, in terms that were delicate, and which remo ved the sting of the Address of the Hen. Mover, ( Mr. Wardle), At h . cli must undoubtedly be most galling to his Majesty. If, then, he was compelled to wince an optioa Imeceen the first Resolution of the Night Honourable Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) and the Address of his Hon. Friend, (Mr. Wardle), he should be obliged to prefer the latter, although he could easily conceive that it would be possible so to modify the first Resolution of the Right Honourable Gentleman, as that he should think it preferable to the Address. As to the sort of threats that had been held in terrorem ovets the House, of the popular opinion, upon this case, he would say, that there could be no corruption more degrading or ti vilifying than for that House, after the pains they had taken in the examination of the evidence upon this sub ject, to allow themselves to be governed by the opi. , nions of those who had not equal means of judging. If he had 'entertained at first an opinion favour able to those charges, he would not have been back Ward in supporting them. When Mr. Paull brought forward charges in that House which espo sed him to quite as much obloquy as the Honourable Mover of the present charges was exposed, he sup ported Mr. Paull, because he thought the charges were well-founded, and he should have equally sup ported the present charges, if he had thought they had hem well l founded. Mrs. Clarke had stated, and` the Hon. Gentleman admitted, that he (Mr.Wardle) had taken papers and letters from her by force. He did not know what was the degree of force, whether it was an affected struggle on her part, or a permitted ripe of those letters—EA laugh] ; but this he would say thiit if the Hon. Member really did get pesst*sion of those letters prec;selT.in the Mahn mentioned by Mrs. Clarke, there was not n Angle charge brought e out against the Duke of York, which he would not rather • be guilty of than of that action. (Hear, 11...u5r. from the Ministerial Benches.) He did nut censider that the case or Samuel C' titer bore with any strength against the Duke. If he was a footietys as he was called, it was better than if he had been a footman, for many who had in early life been of.the lowest rank, were after- wenis highly distinguished in the world. With time the mark wore out of their mouths. (A laugh.) He should, however, ask those who considered the treat mem of Miss Taylor as most cruel, because it was unnecessary, lad not Satantel Carter been treated id a manner equally cruel, by being brought forward without the least necessity ? His low birth had been unnecessarily proclaimed to the world : he had been trodden down like a weed, and ruined; by his natne having been brought forward by the Honourable Mover, without the least appearance of necessity, and, as Mrs. Clark e state d, he direct contradiction to a positive promise given, and merely by taking an ad vantage somewhat unfair of a confidential communi cation. He concluded by saying, that it was with great pain he felt himself bound to vote for the Address of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Bankes), in preference to the Re solution of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Lord CASTLEREAGH rose, amidst the cries of Question ! Question ! He thought it not a little extra. ordinary that the Right Hon. Gentleman had taken grounds for his vote so little consonant to the opinion which he delivered in his speech. For his part, he conceived k much better to come to a distinct reso lution, than to approach his Majesty in the .first instance by an Address. If, however, he were to give an opinion between the two Addresses, he should prefer the Address of the Honourable Mover, as con voying a more direct Resolution of the House. If the House really believed the Duke of York guilty of either knowing or suspecting that Mrs. Clarke received mcney for those Commissions, which he granted at her interference, he could not see how it was possible to avoid pronouncing him corrupt. If he had known that such sums of money went to the support of the escab lishment in Gloucester-place, it would have been as cor rupt as if he had put the money in his own pocket. His Honourable Friend (Mr. Bankes) had conceived that delicacy to the Crown required rather that the Ad dress should be worded in the manner he had propos ed, than in the manner which had been originally proposed by the Honourable Mover (MreWardle). He vit.eved, however, this point of delicacy inn very different light. What. muse be the feelings of his Majesty if he should be informed that his son was still charged with corruption of the foulest kind, and that that son had not been heard in his defence ? The Noble Lord then entered into a review -of the evi dence, and considered that Mrs. Clarke Was evidently actuated by the most decided resentment and the most vindictive feelings. This appeared to him evident not only from the letters she wrote to *Mr. Adam, but from the testimony of Colonel M'Mahon, with respect to the letter she had written to the Prince of Wales, and the conversations she had held with him. He was ready to admit, that he believed Mrs. Clarke had spoken a great deal of truth ( Hear, :'Hear!)- and yet he woukl . noe:believeher in that which TestEd almost entirely on.her assertion, the knowledge and privity of the Duke to her transactions. She had narrated her own transactions with considerable ac curacy, and in that narration, which was also con firmed by documents, and other evidence, he thought she was worthy of belief, because she had no intereSt in speaking falsely. But when she came to assert that the Duke knew of her corrupt transactions, he would not believe her, because that was a thing easy of invention, which was incapable ef direct contradic tion, and to which she might well he supposed to be stimulated by her resentment. If she could have established the corruption of his Royal Highness in any one instance, he should then have believed she spoke the truth when she mentioned other instances. —She had, however, proved no such thing, and no man's life or character would be safe if it de pended on such tes:imony. It was very easy to con ceive that -a combinetion might have existed between Mrs. Clarke, Mrs. Faveinite (ler half-sister and house keeper) Miss Taylor s her sister-in-law, and Mr. bow ler, her favourite lover. It would be recollected that so far filen being the unwilling witness she had repre sented herself, she had written letters to Donovan and to Captain Sadden, to induce them to join in her plan; and that, on the very day that Mr. Dewier at rived from Spain, she went to his. hotel, and passed the night with him, for no other purpose that could be conceived (a loud anti gentral lau,sll) but to ex tract from him what evidence he would be able to give, and to arrange their plans in concert. It ap peared to him the most incredible thing on earth, areni . the-Duke had really been consciousof any col-- nipt practices, such as had been imputed to him, he should part from this woman hi the manner he did, without making an arrangement to induce her not to mention those transactions. It was incredible that he should have preferred an investigatioe like the pre sent, attended with so many painful exposures, to a compromise with this woman, if he had not been per fectly conscious of innocence. As to the feeling of the army with respect to the Duke of York, he was con vinced that no man ever enjoyed so completely their affections, and no man had tver done so much good to the army. Under his administration every attAttioe had been paid to the comforts of the soldier, and the character of the army had made rapid strides to perfection, and he should implore the House to con sider rather the military charges against him, than the accusation of immorality. If even under the corrupt influence of Mrs. Clarke, he had never given any ap pointments that were not justified on strict military grounds, it must be supposed his future administration would be still more free from blame, now he had-extri cated himself from that influence and connection, and received a very severe lesson, from the evils it had occa sioned, and the painful exposures which had been made. There was another point of view in which the sub ject was of the utmost importance. His Royal High ness stood very near in the succession to the Throne. If he should now be branded as a man unfii tobe trusted in the service of his country, the same reason should go tei induce Parliament to exercise their power in cutting off his succession ; for how could a man, stained with infamy and corruption, command, or deserve the respect and affections of the people of this country ? On that account he deprecated any condemnation by the House • of• Commons, hut. demanded, as he had weston4sedl e e the right to 4 . 6,4 jiw by s hie Peers, if the Reuse should tank there was a sufficient case to put him on his trial. He objected then to both those Addresses, as going to brand the Duke of York with infamy, without allowing him the benefit of a trial by his Peers, under the usual sanction of the wit nesses being sworn. It appeared to him that no case had bees made out, which would jus y such a pro ceeding in the House, and therefore he should vote for the Resolutions as moved by his Right Honour able Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer.) Mr. CALCRAFT szid, he katr.v the dreadful abyss into which his Royal Iliglovess the Duke of York must fall, if he met with the condemnation of that House. He certainly felt for him very much ; he felt also the highest respect and duty towardstheilluslious Personage ; but he could not forget that he had a paramount duty to fulfil to the House and the coun try ; and lie would, however disagreeable it might be to him, endeavour to discharge that duty, so as to ac quit himself to his own conscience ant to the country. The House were now on the point of coming to a de cision on a subject of the greatest magnitude and im portance that had ever been submitted to their consi deration, and they must decide on a fair, cool, and dispassionate view of the evidence, and give their verdict accordingly. The Royal person who was the subject of the inquiry then betore them, had unques tionably had the advantage of all the most eminent legal abilities which that House contained within it, aided also by his Majesty's Ministers, who, whatever he might in other respects think of them, tad certain ly defended the Duke of York in so zealous and ablest manner as reflected the greatest credit on their talents, and on their attention to the honour and charac ter of the Comraander in Chief. He felt himself induced to speak on this subject to-night, in conse quence of what had fallen, from the Noble Lord who had just sat down as to the evidence of Mr. Dowler in particular. The Noble Lord had said it was on his part a conspiracy to aid and assist Mrs. Clarke in sup parting the chargcsbrought forward against his Royal Highness. He (Mr. Cakraft) confessed, he was astonished to hear the Noble Lord make such a charge. A conspiracy ! it was impossible. Mr. Dowler _was abroad in the service of his country, when the-charges were first introduced, and did not of his own accord come back to England, but was actually sent home with dispatches. It was, there fore, impossible he could conspire to aid charges, of the existence of which he was ignorant tilltis arrival in England. The Honourable Member then adverted to the note on Tonyn's business, which he deemed to • be a damning proof against the Commander in Chief. He was also of opinion that Miss Taylor's evidence was clear and decisive against the Duke of York, in the affair of Fronch'slevy. At that late hour lie would not waste the time of the House by entering into any detail of the evidence, which had been so fully dilated onby several of his Hon. and Learned Friends. There were, nevertheless, one or two points he would beg leave aebriefly as possible to touch upon. The No ble Lord had said the Duke of York had never partici pated with Mrs. Clarke in any pecuninary transactions. He (Mr. Caleraft) • was decidedly of - opinion, that such participation had been proved. Ijis Royal Highness- had employed Mr. Comrie, who - was Mrs. Clarke's Solicitor, to negociate and raise a loan for him, and for that purpose had referred him to his own men of -business. Ile had without reserve entrusted Mrs. Clarke with the disclosure of his distresses, and there was in his (Mr. Calcraft's) mind no doubt but she had as unreservedly informed him of her own. He next took notice of the Duke of York's letter to the House, through the medium of the Speaker, in which his Royal Highness had sliewn that he was very-- willing to acct eir acuittancet tat e stron- ly deprecated their condemnation q ~ bu He h thou h ght tha g t - letter went in a great degree to question and deny the authority of the House, and as such entrench on their privileges. He felt the strongest objections in his own mind to it, when he first heard it read, and was sorry he had not then expressed the sentiments of his mind ; but seeing so many others of far greater Parliament ary.. knowledge and experience than he possessed, pass by it without ',mice, he had been awed into silence, and so had assented to its being permitted to lie upon the table. He would tot wish to trespass on the time o'.• the House, and should, there ore, conclude by saying, that he had endea voured to make up his m . d to vote in favour of the Address of the Honou: ab c Gentleman on the floor (Mr. Bankes), but he thought the circumstances against the Duke of Yc rk )o strong, that he would rather choose to adopt :om: Resolution that might be better, and more close:3r adipted to meet the subject on which the House we st ) come to a decision. If no such Resolution should be hereafter proposed, hb should prefer the original Address proposed by the Honourable Gentleman behind him (Mr. Wardle). Lord TEMPLE said, that on a question of such high importance, he could not think of giving a si lent vote. He should therefore wish to give his rea sons as concisely as possible for differing in opinion with his Honourable Friend who had just sat down : but at that late hour he would not trespass on the pa tience of the House, but would then move, that the . House adjourn to this day. In doing this he hoped, nevertheless, the House would not be inclined to pro tract the debate, but would come to a decision as • speedily aepossible. • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER coincided in opinion with the Noble Lord as to the adjournment, and also in the hope that the House might be able to come to a decision of the first ques tion at the close of this day's debate, which had al ready been protracted to a very peat length ; but he must confess with a temperance in the discussion, and a patience in the attention, which no subject had ever before received. • . . Mr. HERBERT thou t, that when so many Gentlemen had patiently listened to while they gave their opinions at such length as to average two hours eath, the Country Gentlemen, who would not perhaps take up quarters, where the others had con sumed whole hours, should not be curtailed of an op portunity of speaking their sentiments. Mr. PONSONBY said, he should for one put in his claim to being heard on the subject ; he h o p e d, however, that the House would be able to come to a decision of a preliminary question at the close of this day's debate, though there would certainly follow another on the order, in which the ultimate decision of the House should take place. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER concurred in this opinion. Adjourned at HALF-PAST TURES o'clock. • I;: L 6 ~'