Star. — London, England, 1819-05-25 00:00:00

qtalatio s to) wili ; ckhe &ad See tit') solid oh• tt He understood some persons had had it in troplation to propose a plan by which the Bank i d t.i• called upon to pay gull in bars at the A price. Ile v. r.c.:d rather see a . :l principle tied than st sveil a principle as that to which .1 Abided su' , :t uted for that which had hitherto sand upom Ile sheaved this would virtually prevent the return, or at least the continuance , ts h Payment,. Ile would no* conclude. The ins he had this night expressed were opposite to r ,n which he 1 . . a.! formerly acted s when in truth ,{ not hazi time to give the subject that consi nu which it so well deserved, and if this states wou ld serve to satisfy the•Hnuce of hi s s i nce _ !lc bad an arduous duty .to perform. He was obliged painfully to oppose an authority ich on every occasion but this, where a sense ,y forbade him to give way, he wa. ready to with respect and veneration. But having en in the late inquiry, he had been forced to that , s i o n which he had come to, on the principle , m i g ht to govern the currency of this country, is an honest man he was bound to say, and he wit:tont feeling the slightest shame, his opinion : hanged. Ile then moved his Resolutions. le three following Resolutions were then put the Chair and agreed tot 'That it is expedient to continue the Restriction on Pay ia Cash by the Bank of England, beyond the tune in i; is at present limited by law. !hit it is ear.:ilient that a definite period should be fixed t ermination of the Restriction on Cash Payments; and ,iritory measures should be taken, with a view to fad 11d We're, on the arrival of that period, the payment of iiniss , ,r - puotes of the Bank of England in the legal Coin Ile:41;m That in order to give to the Bank a greater controut over , ur : of their Notes than they at present possess, provision tube made-for the gradual repayment to the Bank of the niiilims; being part of the sum due to the Bank, on of advances made by them for the public service, and on q of the purchase of Exchequer-bills under the authority s of the Legislature fourth Resolution being put in the following ; , Tba: it is expedient to provide, by law, that from the lit Febriury, 1810, the Bank shall be liable to deliver, on de- Gal ! of standard fineness, having been assayed and stamp , 314:sty's Mint, a quantity of not less than 60 ounces reqci:ed in exchange for such an amount of Notes of the be equal to the value of the Gold so required, at ac off:4ls. per ounce,"--- r. ELLICE rose. He concurred with all the ;pies laid down by the Right Hon. Gentleman in :ry eloquent speech, but differed from the Com ie as to the remedy which ought to be resorted order to carry those principles into effect. He d not to weaken the effect of that speech in fa d principles which he so highly approved. were opptisted but by few, and those who op them only did so on tile ground of present in. liency, but without indicating the period when ,old be less inexpedient to act upon them. He a view of the situation of the country • from , when the exchanges were in our favotw, up to resent time, and traced the difficulties under we had now to labour, to the plan of finance Inght forward by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, msequence of the favourable. state of the er rs. The trade of the country in 1815 and ' he compared with that of the two following and argued that in the latter period, though exports were ~ reat, in consequence of the specu is which had been encouraged, the returns were unfavourable to this country. The evils of our :ncy were only now beginning to make theat res felt; but we should find them increase with • hour till the restoration of the ancient stan of value should be accomplished-i4Hear.)-- : differed from the Right Honourable Gentle. as to the particular measure recommended by , and founded on the Report of the Cotomittee, ;egged again to say that he perfectly agreed with in the principles which they had avowed, and irst three Resolutions had his most cordial ap iation. If in no other way he could accomplish object in view, he would go with the Right Ho trable Gentleman, but he thought he saw a better r of remedying the evil. He wished to move that sum to be repaid to the Bank should be repaid at Jed periods, beginning in June in the present year. Other amendments he would afterwards propose to restrain the Bank from making advances but in cer cases to Government, anti to allow them to pay r Notes in coin or bullion, at their option. He dd also move for- the repeal of the Law respect the Exportation of Coin. HO concluded by ring an amendment which went to provide " for :repayment of the Bank, by monthly instalments, I £500,000, to be regularly paid, beginning on the 10th of June, 1819." Mr. J. P. GRANT had expected the Mint regula tions would force the gold out of circulation, and he :confirmed in the opinion which he had formerly 'Pressed. In such a state of things there was no 'refit in exporting silver. But when the silver cur :y was so reduced as by the present Mint regula- ' 111 s, it operated as a premium on the export of id —and the profit which was derived from deli 111 gold in bars, proved that the Bank note was yrciated with reference to the price of gold, sigh not to that of silver. The evidence of various .6esses proved this.—Mr. Baring expressly stated, that he did not think the rate of gold or of exchange affected by '.le price of silver ; although he men tioned it as a singular fact, that the rates of exchange the price ofbullionhad adapted the niselves pretty arty to the scale of the depreciation of silver. WELLFALEY POLE. said, ir the Report of e Committee which his Honourable Friend had so dereloped—ia every one of the sentiments which as Chairm an o f t h at C omm i t tee, had this ni g ht ,a such ability advanced and maintained, he (Mr. , i(‘) fully acquiesced. There was not one word in Report, or in the speech of his Right Honour-' 1e friend, that did not appear to him to De a fair suction from the evidence which had been deliver 1, difficult as it undoubtedly was to sift and to corn- Art it in all its parts. In no put of the admirable 'Poch of his Ri g h t H onoura bl e Friend did he more krfectdv agree with him, than in that part of it in 'Mich lie spoke of the temper which had been mani" 't,ed 6)' all the Members of the Committee, during and laborious investigations. He felt him if4l),ind, in justice to such Gentlemen on the op si le of the House as were Members of the ''L2e. to declare, that nothing cutild be more and manly, than the whole of their con acre Was not a Oentlinian upon the Coin ittittee who did i'n4 lippeAr cietermineci to forego all party feelings and considerations, and to make up histtponthe mindupon great questi on b e f ore hi m, fairly evidence the which was adduced. He felt, however, that he should not act candidly if he did not declare that he should have been most willing to have had the Report drawn up in confo r mity w i t h t h e principl es w hi c h h ad been laid down by the Honour. able Gentleman opposite, who had moved the Amend ment, if it had not been for the paper which had been laid before them by the Bank of England, and which bad been already referred to ; but he thought that he could not, cons i stent l y with his public duty, after thel production of th at paper, consent to leave the resump tion of Cash Payments to the distretion of the Bank. lie felt the greatest respect for the Directors of the Bank of England ; he believed that they were actu ated by the best motives, but he would leave it to any man in the House to .ay whether, after the pro duction of the paper to which he had alluded, the Committee could, with consistency or propriety, have left it to the Bank t o d eterm i ne w h en and under, what circumstances the payments in cash should be re sumed ? He would not trespass any longer up on the time of the Co mm i ttee b y a d vert i ng to the general question ; indeed, he should not have risen at all, if it had not bee n f or w h at h a d f a ll en f rom the Honour , able and Learned Gentleman who spoke last. Ile perfectly agreed with the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, that the particular considerations which he had pressed upon the attention'of the,Committee were of very great importance ; and entertaining the opinions which the Learned Gentleman did upon the subject, it was undoubtedly his duty to bring it dis tinctly under the consideration of the Committee.— The opinions, however, of the Learned Gentleman upon this point, were by no means new ; they had appeared before the Public in a great variety of shapes. They had been urged with uncommon assi duity and perseverance by one person, highly gifted with talents, and possessing great information, and especially upon this particular point. They had been pressed upon the attention of the Public under the signature of the " Old Merchant, Mr. Hardcastle,“ and others, and the Learned Gentleman had to-night 'spoken the language of the Old Merchant and Mr. Hardcastle with great accuracy. The best answer, perhaps, which he could give to the Hon. and Learn ed Gentleman, would be to state distinctly the prin ciples upon which the Mint Regulations were founded. They were not adopted without that degree of consi deration which the importance of the subject de manded ; and if they were erroneous, those who had advised the Prince Regent upon the subject had much to answer for. From the time of the great Silver Coinage in the reign of King William, the greatest inconvenience had been felt from the cir cumstance of both the precious metals having been made standards of value. The Legislature could fix the value of the coin, but it could not kx the value of the gold or silver bullion from which the coin was made ; therefore as the prices of the bullion fluc tuated, an effect was immediately produced upon the coin, and it was found quite impracticable to keep the two precious metals in circulation tpgether, both being standards of value, and as it were competitors with one another. In the year 1773 the silver coin , war so depreciated, that though it remained nomi nally a standard of value, yet all our exchanges with foreign countries were regulated by the Ford coin.: and in 1774, when the great reformation in the gold coin took place, it was determined that there should be but one standard of value, viz. gold. It was found* impossible at that time to regulate the silver coinage but it was made a legal tender to the amount of twenty-five pounds by tale, and above that amount by weight. In consequence of the new gold coinage and of these regulations, all the exchanges immedi; ately turned in our favour. The silver coin was at that time, as he had already stated, greatly depre ciated, to the extent of he believed 30 per cent,— ' Now if there were foundation for the theory of the Learned Gentleman, that when one coin is depre ciated, it will drive the other out of circulation, that effect must then have been produced—(Hear.) If, as the Learned Gentleman contended, the silver coin which was now under the Mint regulations, de preciated only six per cent. would force the gold out of circulation, surely it must have immediately pro duced that effect when it was depreciated thirty per cent. But the fact was directly at variance with the Learned Gentleman's theory, for the gold was not driven out of circulation. In the year 1816 there were three millions of this depreciated silver coin in circu lation, and it was a legal tender to the amount of L l / 4 25; there was also nearly the same amount of Bank tokens of depreciated value in circulation, and yet they had no effect upon the gold coin. But it was contended that the silver was then only taken by suf ferance, but that now the silver coin was by the Mint regulations legally reduced in value. The fact was so; .but the Learned Gentleman seemed to forget that it was now only made a legal tender to the value of forty shillings, and that as Government kept the coinage in their own hands, they could prevent too large a quantity of it from being thrown into circulation. The Learned Gentleman had entered into a calculation to shew that great profits might be made by a person taking sovereigns, over to France and purchasing silver, and bringing silver back, and again purchasing sovereigns and exporting them.— It was true that when the price of Bullion varied in different countries, a profit might be made, by buy ing it where it was cheap, and selling it where it was dear; but that did not prove the correctness of the Learned Gentleman's argument, because when a per son brought silver from France, in the way stated, he could not have it coined in this country, and even if he could, he would have to pay the seiknorage, and consequently lose his profit, or at least the profit would be too small to tempt any one to enter into the speculation. It was to be observed also that if the Learned Gentleman's theory was well founded, the relative prices of Gold and Silver would be diffe rent from what they actually were ; the price of Gold was now £3 and 6d. the ounce, and Silver ss. 4d. But if the Learned Gentleman was correct in his reason ing, the price of Gold ought to be I:4 Ss. Od. so that here was another practical proof of the fallacy of this theory. The Honourable Gentleman said, that the present system was quite new, and would answer no • purpose. In reply to this, he had only to state, at ithad been established after much deliberation, and that. is fact, it was the same which had been Aso the late late Lord Liverpool. It had conmeodektby the sanction of mother high outhatity, and- a more cticicku one, considering the geneial principles on which it proceeded, namely, the authority of Doctor Achim Smith. In common with most other writers on political economy, Dr. Adam Smith was of opi nion that it was a great evil to have two Metallic Standards. The tiononrable CAntleman, however, wished that we had continued to act on the old system. But what was the old system ? It was this, that the subject had the power of coming to the Mint with silver to any amount, and that the currency of the same metal wits a legal tender to an unlimited ex tent. To permit this, while at the same time gold was a standard, was contrary to, the opinion of all the most skilful political economists. Dr. Smith said that he thought it would be highly desirable to have the silver com regulated on the same principle as the copper (which was limited as a legal tender to the amount of one guinea) and that for this purpose as much should be taken from the silver at the ... ...- Mint as would reduce it to the same degree below the vAlue of bullion that it was now above it. This appeared to hitt the correct view of the subject. In deed it was that on which the late regulations had been framed : and he had found upon examining the proportion that was taken from silver, that it came to within a farthing of that which Dr. Smith recom mended. It had also been the opinion of Lord Li verpool, that a seignorage should be taken upon sil ver ; and he had advised that the coinage should be put into the hands of some great Corporation, such as the Bank. So that the recommendation of Lord 'Liverpool corresponded with what had been done.— The Honourable Gentleman would hardly dispute, that previbus to the late distresses, and down to the time when the regulations in question had been adopted, the state of tire silver coinage was such as was very inconvenient to the nation. Ile need not recal to. the House the state of the country at the time when the regulations were msde. They had now been in operation for three years, and he might venture to say, that there was this proof of their effi cacy, that not a murmur was now anywhere to be heard, relative to the coinage —(Hear, hear.) Yet when the regulations for the co i n age had been at first proposed, there was an outcry against them in the very same quarter from whence the objections which he was now considering, had proceeded. The Noble "Old Merchant," and the Noble Lord in the other House had then asked how so wicked a thing could be attempted as to change the silver currency of the country? and insisted that it would cause the greatest distress among the lower orders of trade—that the shopkeeper, the middle-man, the small wader, would be ruined. In answer to this, however, the Chancel lor of the Exchequer had argued very ably on the benefits, which it would produce, and stated that the expenses would not exceed 500,0001.—(hear, hear.) The Noble Lord, however, met this by a still more positive denunciation of the evil consequences of any attempt towards a new silver coinage, and main tained that the expense would be much greater than the sum mentioned by the Chancellor of the Ex chequer.—" Only half a million," said the Noble Lord. ". Good Goo! you are completely mistaken. I know how you calculate: you take nothing into account but the mere expense of labour—you forget the loss which will be occasioned by the deprecia fron. I say, it will cost, not half a million, but-nine millions and a half; and that enormous sum must be taken from the pockets of that clam wham I hwie mentioned, the diopkeeper and the small trader, and an' incalculable mischief will be occasioned to the country." But the gold coin and the rate of ex change never entered into the Noble Lord's contem plation.—" Look what you are clOing," said he— " Yciu will lose all your new coin in six months." 'The result, however, shewed how completely the Noble Lord was mistaken; and * he could only now hope that the " Noble Old Merchant" would be as bad a prophet now as the Noble Lord was formerly. In truth, if the effect of the regulations for the last ' coinage were compared with those of any former pe riod, it would be foutid that none had ever been so completely successful. The new coinage in the reign of William 111. had been attended with many diffi culties, and had occasioned a at deal of distress throughout the kingdom. N ing of this kind had occurred in 1817. Throughout the whole - kingdom there was hardly an individual who lost a shilling or a sixpence—(Hear.)—This much he would say of the regulations which the Noble Lord and the Honour able Gentleman so much condemned, that if a new ,coinage were to be issued to.mori ow, he would adopt them without any alteration. There was now no want of change, and he hoped soon to see the time ,when there would be no want of bullion. As to cop per, at the time he wrote the letter which had been mentioned, the copper coinage was circulating at a seignorage of 72b. This would seem very high, but it was principally occasioned by the expenses of the workmanship of the copper coinage, which cost nearly forty per cent. But it was not found to be any inconvenience to the public—(Hear, hear.) — He was ashamed to have detained the House so long, but thought it his duty to lay before them those statements relative to a subject which had been so erroneously treated by the Noble Lord in the other House and the Hon. Gentleman. If the Hon. Gen tleman had been right, his. objection was most se rious; but he trusted he said enough to shew that no weight whatever was due to those objection. In fact, they were all sufficiently answered by the evi r "(fence of Mr. Mushett, and the Committee were so entirely satisfied with the information which that Gentleman communicated, that they had not thought it necessary to call any other witness on that part of the subject. Mr. TIERNEY and Mr. MANNING rose at the same time. There was a pretty loud call for The latter Gentleman, but he gave way. Mr. TIERNEY assured the House that he would not trespass long upon their time. All that he wished was, that he might be allowed to say, in a very few words, what had occurred to him relative to the plan through which, by various intermediate steps, it was proposed to arrive at the great object. He could hardly say that he was quite a disinterested party onl thii question, if it was recollected that be now heard from the other side of the House those verrprinciples advocated for which he and his friends near him had so long contended. Nor could it be thought that it was possible for him to remain indifferent when he heard the tribute of respect paid to the memory of one who had always been most dear to h'rn. It was a great gratification to him that he had lived at least I to see the day when those doctrines were adopted • . ~ . ' wilic hi e- 1 561) first delrereci with all the poiVeiTti eloquence. of the late Mr. Horner, had beet: describ • by the Gentlemen on the other side of the Hotise as happened ß m o e n r jii vis iona r yy‘w i‘thi What h respect d t bt sp e cu l ations. lti me o . a T tpe h idn e ,iowns sa i m ieon 7 sp t i h rroe ir s i g ez h un ad egl from that most distinguished man, as wild theories, .were new adopted by. those very persons who had so long. enti tl w Ai i k c e h d he th h e a l d ti th gh is t n H ig on ht . e o rran w f d or th t e h m e .H justice e .G rendered to the memo,- of one of those eminent men, and he was sure that hereafter equal justice would the dtaoi nb H i w ot a fh s e nreo great ee s e e i c mm a pe l l Loei importance; ,a) u nb p ce o e n;a but p o ur te d t e st l oy i b f e a r r a u t e be done to the merit s of th e ot h er . T he subject on s yo e r uo v sn e , ee w h w- e h a s i c c o c h u i e gene ral disposition on both sides of the House to concur in the plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel). He was sorry, however, that he could not entirely agree to that plan, proposed as it was to the House under the sanction of the Committee. No man could be more anxious than himself for the speedy resump tion of Cash Payments—no man could be supposed to have less favour for the Bank Directors. But jus tice must be done to all; and he felt it his duty to state why he should vote for the Amendment moved by his Honourable Friend (Mr. Ellice) rather than for the motion of the Right Honourable Gentleman. All were agreed as to the importance of an early re. turn to a metallic currency. Some indeed there were who seemed to think that a continuance of the restric tion would not be attended with any material incon venience to the country. With such persons he ab jured all intercbmmunion of sentiment. He must protes# against the monstrous doctrines on which their opinions were founded—(./ear, hear).—But he per fectly agreed with the Right I lonourable Gentlemaa, that there was no security to the Wash Empire but in a. return to a metallic currency. Ile agreed that there could be no tocsins by which property could be valued till we turned to a wholesome circulation, and he agreed that the plan which was best adapted to effect a speedy return to this most desirable state, was that which the House ought to adopt. The plan which the Right Honourable Gentleman pro pmed was easily explaieed—( Hear, hear, hear). — It was, that in February next the Bank s h a ll pa y a ll demands in sums not less than 60 ounces, in bulliqu at the price of CI. Is. per ounce—that from the Ist - November, 1820, this price should be reduced to £3. 19s. 6d.—from Ist May, 1821, demands to half the amount first mentioned in bullion at the rate of £3. 17s. 100. and finally, that the notice of one year for a complete resumption of Cash Payments, to be given by the Parliament to the Bank, should not be given before the Ist of May, 1822. The effect of this plan was to drive off the period of Cash Pay ments for four years from this time, which would make it the ninth year of peace before-the people of England would be put in possession of a metallic cur rency. With all the use which had been made of the authority of his Honourable Friend (Mr. Ricardo), to sanction this plan, he must observe, that it did not entirely coincide with it. This was not Mr. Ricardo's plan. It was a postponement of it for two years from this time, and then it gave it two years more for its operation. On these two first years—on this inter mediate step it was that he felt great doubts. He teould•ctsily agree to Mr. Ricardo s plan for allowing Bank time to collect bullion. But hereefived wishabhorrence-the other part of the plan which had the tendency of introducing a new standard unknown to the currency of the country. It was a n mina torsi and absurd way of getting rid of the difficu - ' ties which now beset us. Its tendency was net to make our paper come to gold, but to make our go'd come to paper—if the mountain would not con eto Mahomet, Mahomet must go to the mountain.— Yet the Right Hon. Gentleman mentioned some authorities as to the danger of introducing a new standard. But this was what alarmed him—that if the principle of our standard was once broken down, it would never be resumed. The Right Honourable Gentleman used this phrase in speaking of his plan, that the Committee were ~ Taking security against poisible danger." This was a good expression. A security against possible danger was just the very thing which be wanted. The Right Honourable Gentleman, however, agreed that the standard shonld only be altered for a limited time. But the great security to which he would look was, that when Cash Payments were resumed, it would cut off the retreat of those who might be disposed to draw back. The Honourable Member thought that the plan now pro- • posed was dangerous, because it tended to withdraw the confidence of the Public from the Bank. What is a pound sterling now worth? The Bank is no longer to be trusted, and therefore the currency of the country is greatly depreciated, and the pound sterling of a very doubtful value. But the opinions entertained 0 the Bank by the Chancellor of the Ex chequer were the opinions of Mr. Horner, as ex pressed in his propositions submitted to the House in the year 1810. The Bank Directors were treated very cavalierly by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The former say, we know nothing of political eco nomy ; but if a sun is made against as, we must take . care of our Paper—(Hear, hear, hear). It is some what extraordinary that you should demand security from the Bank, and not from Government, who were the chief culprits, because the Bank were under the controul of the Right Ilonourable Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) and his worthy col leagues—( Hear,hear). Without security from Govern ment, as well as the Bank, you were in a manner putting the shepherd in the stocks, and letting . loose the wolves.--(Hear, hear.) Nothing was so mischie vous as to say to the Bank Directors—. We cadnot trust you, and thei efore the public must repose no confidence in you r Let -such language jv used against any private banking-house, and ruin tnust inevitably follow. By holding out to all the world that the Bank is not to be trnitel, public credit 'a deeply injured. But he (Mr. Tierney). had an interest in the Bank, and' therefore thought . it iacumbrat upon him to support the Bank against the attacks cf Ministers. Should the Bank complain of the non- _ payments of the advances co Government, the latter would turn round shortly on the Bank, and say, the public must no longer trust osti—(Hear, hear.)—_ They thew the .WhOle. responsib4ity upon the Bank, when they . were -the 'vilely paltsons who prevented 'the Directors frOut resnixfittg Cash-payMents--(4ear.) Let Government adopt settle plan forAti speedy dis charge of its debts due to the Bank ;Aid should "%e Directors refuse to return to Cash Pa, meats after Ele itt . tt en tente ll tvx ..,teat V r tt C:tsi ~r t tior t t ke 1 .1 Id ?tratin Trot 3ty , 1 .11 ;,. ‘ rhit yow LO f;5.1C.1 yt l is ,pd it t vai ch. The fora tl stiait ir et: t tat tar ye Proli :hr 1. t knit ht to el')t The terns : 4 4. Yebt • Ji^! rt fAi ad it rat 4r. oriatip ver acme to in cy ruhed tour I .7ify ?,bed t.pedit wual ::,ok a e pr vhich brflogi a con thangt !816 1 lean, 2 EX] boons Tay u wren elves every dud 11 he mtn 3 'dim, a he bq them the fir F o a l the oh mum: Gaya the at feed Other Tatra thin c tear shod lugt the n of £5 10th bons sash elPrt Frail mac] twos gold relit dept tou that was tioni !tear: te I ‘;;( a..lt tied F ut eti,l !per t Pal *oi lest 1 :t seif .r .i I ' F• i ' 1 ' ! 1 i I , I ' I r`', l' i ; I i I • 1 ] I I I 6 1 tI 11 I 1 . i I 1 i 1 1 1 1 If ' I 4 7. 4 ". I , • I • ; . _ / d