Star. — London, England, 1811-03-05 00:00:00

, « .01 Foetal . tors the Attorniesfixettera wore the moat did net think was the cafe ell *he present oetasion, tries g therefore it belowd not to nritain to con._ indulgent, and were the documents of the last igs and he therefore felt it his duty to oppose the motion. mince or to do a similar proceeding. years to be laid before the House , it would a pp ear Lord HOLLAND repliedat great length, and Mr. WHITBREAD said, that he had found that that much misconception prevailed upon this p o int, combated the various arguments that had been ad- there were many things of much importance, whith The nature of the prosecutions for libels differed f r om duced by the several Noble Lords who had spoken the Charge d'Affaires of America could not meddle that of moat others, and gave rise to circumstances against his motion. In conclusion he observed, if a i with at all, He had no mission to settle about the peculiar to itself. He had known an instance where Bill was not brought up from the other House upon I Chesapeak, a most material point between the two a hiiel in an indictment as placed on the record, was the subject of Informations ex !Piot he should himself Inations, besides several others of manifest importance afterwards published, in which case the Attorney-Ge- move for leave to bring in a Bill to repeal the Act to the prosperity of our country. lt is very strange, nerd was obliged to recur to a commen.urate mode now in existence, on that subject. ihe said, that we should please ourselves, and have o f proceeding. With respect to the case of l en ity . The question was then loudly called for, strangers , Gentlemen to please us too, with the dear belief of a particularly pointed at, the author was given up.— withdrew , and the House divided. The numbers ' s p eed y termination of oter differences with the United Th ere wer e few instances, his Lordship observed, were as follow :—Contents 12—Non-contents Oa— States of Atnerica, while, in America, they dulged where judgment was suffered to g o b y default, that Majority 12.—Adjourned at Eleven o'Clock. in no such ideas, and had reasons to think the direct the parties,were brought up for judgment. For his --e--- contrary. The proceedings between the two coun part, while in the office • alluded to, be preferred fol- HOUSE OF COMMONS. tries would soon be known by the printinn of the lowing up the law against the printers and publishers, It being the last day appointed for the receiving of Petitions American papers, and he should think that the like which he found the most effectual way. He thought, for Private Bills, the Speaker took the Chair at ten minutes past conduct in our Government would be a praiseworthy w or ich . w A e g ee re a at ß p il rr f s e of private bus h iness then came on, amongst anticipation of that knowledge which, when alone with respect to the Noble Baron's motion, there should lace of re Smi thfield, be some prima facie case made out, before the House which was read a first e n la rg i ng dme,an s d ordered e arkes t - o p second cou ld w i t h prrpriety accede to it. As to professions time, and another for widening and improving of Temple Bar, , for. America could not be blamed for her publishing of regard fir the genuine liberties of the people, er I which, after being read a first time, was ordered to a secon d ' those papers—whatever belonged to the public wel i Th readin g . The Bill for the erection of a Bridge over the river , fare it was necessary for the public to know, told their for the inestimable Constitution under which they ;and ther es i d o a n fi d o r fi rst Journeymen t i me, wa s or d ere darroyo s t , o Regulation read a second s tim o e n ; lived, he woald make no professions—a man's ac- I sec ! 1 Suffrage or disavowal was stamping it with credit or tions best spoke his real sentiments ; where his actions Bill was read a first time, and ordered for a second reading. displeasure. The voice of the public called for a belied his professions , t he latter naturall y would not PAPERS FROM THE MINT. I knowledge of proceedings which related to tie public interests; and he thou be believed; by th e former he would wish to be A person from the Mint produced papers relating to the mar- 'ht that such communications judged. , ket price of standard gold tor a certain period.—Ordered to lie . should, without delay, be upon the table, and to be printed.made, and there f ore he in- Earl GROSVENOR spoke very brie fl y in support i timated , that on Friday first he would move that such MOTION POSTPONE D . of the motion , and expressed his opinion that the i I papers should be laid before the House. ty-two cases occurring in the ° tioLnorrediatFis OLICESTONE said, that be would postpone his mo- i EAST - INDIA COMPANY. c i rc umstance of for g to the i nformat ion ex elele, from Friday to Wedgies- 1 three last years out of fi fty-two, which took place in d ay se'nnight. I Mr. CREEVEY rose to move for certain Papers the whole interval, of itself formed a sufficient prima BOOKSELLERS, ETC. PETITION. i explanatory of the Affairs of the East-India Corn facie case to induce their Lordships to adopt the mo- Mr. H. MARTIN brought up a Petition from the Booksellers, pany. The Hon. Gentleman's object in moving was, %ion. Printers and Publishers, praying for amendment of the act of the to convince the House that the Comnany there not Lord REDESDALE observed, that in general 39th of George lll.—Ordered to lie on the table. justified in declaring a dividend to the amount of Mr. H. MARTIN intimated , that on this day fortnight he the Attornies-General were responsible in such cases would move for leave b • • to rin g in a Bill to explain and amend an di630,000 on their capital. Such a proceeding, he as those adverted to. These Officers sometimes re- act of the 39th of his present Majesty. contended, was, on the part of the Directors, a vitt cuffed to Ministers on political points, but as to the BANK OF IRELAND. , lation of the law, by which it was expressly provided, legal proceedings they were held responsible. With Mr. GEORGE JOHNSTONE moved for papers concerning that the Directors, should not declare a dividend but respect to the motion of the Noble Baron, he did not i the i is sr o A f Bank-notes for a certain period from the Batik of out of the nett proceeds of their annual concerns. Agreed t . conceive its object to be any charge against, or crimi- re an PAPERS ON THE MADRAS ARMY. ' Now what was the actual state of their affairs ? In. nation of the Law Officers of the Crown, but for the . Colonel ALLAN moved for cop ies of papers which should stead of havin g an y nett p roceeds, they, in point of ulterior purpose of introducing some ulterior regale.. have passed between Sir George Barlow, Lord Minto and the fact, had a deficiency of more than two millions, and tion in the existing law. He would ask, was the press East India Company in ISM relating to the transactions of the lately had come to Parliament for the loan of one -now free, or was it not ? He was sure it would be Madras Army, and of the resignation of officers, and their sus- million and a half. The Hon. Gentleman referred pension in the service of the Company. acknowledged that it not only was free, but that a to the 9th and 10th William, which (so jealous were IRISH CONVENTION. considerable degree of licentiousness existed. This • mr. :—. ruNSONEY said, that not being in the House on Friday Parliament at that day of the Company) provided licentiousness it was impossible to check unless by last, when Mr. Wellesley Pole, the Secretary for Ireland, was that they should not declare a dividend unless their -prosecutions conducted in the same manner as at pre- present, he had not the opportunity of asking several questions profits would bear it. The next Act was the 6th of sent. If there were any specific restrictions to the of much importance, which he assuredly wisidd have done had he Queen Anne, at which period the Company had ad-1 liberty of the press, which it was the intention of the beenrresenttwe House iththe lin u on .bed Gentleman. He would, therefore, vance d £3,200,000 to G overnm e n t. In that Act . P r a r : el) e e O e to b f correspondenC o e which haaldntealkte,ntopmlacve f e bertwtheeenwhmolee there were some clauses for securing the creditors. Noble Lord to have removed, he should have brought forward a direct motion to that effect, instead of nicer- Wellesley Pole and the Members of the Irish Catholic Colleen- In 1765 they got the Carnatic, and then great altera. ing for • papers which could have no connection with dm . tions were made in the dividends. The Public claimed such an object. Upon the whole, being of opinion AMERICAN CHARGE D'AFFAIRES a participat:on with the Company—a species of corn. that the law, as it stood, 'maintained the freedom of : Mr. WHITBREAD said, that before the House pact was entered into between them, and the Act of i the press at the same time that it provided in the most should hurry into its specified business, he would wish Appropriation of the Surplus of the Revenue was effectual manner against its licentiousness, he should to speak a few words, and ask a question or two of made. In this state matters stood till 1781, when the vote against tke motion. i the Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Ex- funds of the Company fell deficient, and they came ' The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, that at this chequer) who was then opposite to him. It had bten to Parliament for leave to make a dividend of eight late hour he would not trespass long upon their Lord- held out to the country in his Majesty's Speech, that per cent. From this time to 1805, they actually had ships' attention ; but if his Noble Friend should take , every hope was entertained, and that every exertion no surplus profits, but, in consequence of various ex the sense of the House upon kis motion, he would . was then making, to conciliate the-United States of peditions, were at that time deficient in their revenue, certainly vote for it, and was anxious to guard that , America and the kingdom of Great Britain. He had their expenditure having exceeded their receipts up vote against misconception, feeling as he did, after heard rumours much to the contrary a good many . wards of seven millions; and, from various causes of what had followed the speech of his Noble Friend, , days ago, which lie had mentioned to the Honourable the same nature, they were now fifteen millions worse that there was a necessity for such precaution. He : Chancellor of the Exchequer, and who had satisfied than nothing. In moving for these papers, he wished was aware that the power of proceeding by inform- I him in stating that the Americas Minister had left to know the ground of making a dividend, which they tion was one that could not be parted with without! behind him his Charge d'Affaires, possessed of full had done, of ten and a half per cent. at a time when great inconvenience and injury to justice. The office'. powers to negotiate on the part of his own Govern- their revenue was defective to the extent he had which he had the honour of filling under his " ^ I ment for the welfare of both , and that our Minister staled ? When these papers were furnished, he should " ' , Majesty •convinced him of the importance - of such a power in the Crown in cases of revenue ; but his Noble Friend had said nothing which went to question the proprie ty of it ; all he censured was the improper application. And how had his Noble Friend proceeded ? Ye bot tomed himself upon the opinions of Lord Hale and Sir William Blackstone, which opinions were not con tradicted ; for having attended with the greatest anxi • ety to hear the sentiments of the Noble and Learned Lord opposite (Lord Ellenborough) with regard to the authority of such men, he found that the Noble and Lrarned Lord was too much taken up with an- / swering what he had been pleased to put into the mouth of his Noble Friend, to attend to their ideas upon the subject. He should feel himself justified, therefore, no judgment having been pronounced to the contrary, to cnnsider it a right opinion of Justicej BLtckstone, which stated, that in no case except mis- I demeanour should this power be resorted to. The I great increase of such prosecutions had been stated by his Noble Friend ; and the circumstance of that in crease was a sufficienr ground far investigating whe ther it was to be ascribed to the increase of enormous offences which could admit of no delay, or from the application of the law to cases not justified by the I principle. The -motion of his Honourable Friend was therefoie a proper motion, as it went to make the grounds of the law clear to the public, to shew that it was fixed upon true and invariable principles, and not subject to the arbitrary exercise of any Govern- ment or individual. He thought that Parliament should not sit by when such a deviation appeared, without instituting some inquiry ; be thought that it 4 44.. ear and silently permit a practice to proceed to such an extent as might eventually super sede the institution of Grand Juries, without ascer taining whether that practice was the effect of nece sity, or any less justifiable cause. His Noble Friend did not call upon the House to take his information. Be stated what he believed to be true, and asked for that information which would enable the House to judge whether there was sufficient in the case to jus tify any further proceedings. Upon the subject of that further proceeding, he (the Marquis of Lans. -1 downe) would not pledge himself to any opinion, nor was he required to do so. All he wanted was to have that which should be the subject of every legal and political proceeding—the truth investigated and as certained, and to see that liberty preserved which was only to be preserved now in the same . manner as here tofore, by the vigilance and suspicion of such men as his Noble Friend. • • The Earl of LIVERPOOL could not agree to the motion of the Noble Lord, until he was shewn some case of abuse which would constitute a fair ground for proceeding to inquiry. He was ready to admit, that it was essential to the peace of the country that the law should not only he justly and fairly admini stered, but that the.mode of its administration should be beyond suspicion. .On the other hand, he thought Plenipotentiary for America had given great pro- think it his duty to cill - the attention of the House to mises of a speedy termination of the existing differ- the subject on some future day. The Honourable ences. On that most important subject he had made Gentleman moved for—is A statement of the amount much inquiry, and had found, by an evidence quite • of Dividend, and the rate per cent. upon the Ca incontestille, that instead of differences being on the pital Stock of the East India Company, declared at edge of termination the hopes of it was further away the Midsummer Quarter, 1810, &c." than ever. He would wish the Hon. Gentleman (the Mr. ASTELL was not disposed to withhold the Chancellor of the Exchequer) to agree to complete papers from the Honourable Gentleman, which, when copies being taken of all the correspondence which produced, he could assure the House, would lay suf had taken place on that important subject between ficient grounds for disproving the assertions which the. the American Government and ours. The American Honourable Gentleman had so profusely made re-, Ministry had published all theirs for the satisfaction specting the state of the affairs of the East India Com of their country, and our proceedings would soon be patsy. It would then be seen the situation of the known by that means, so that the present wish he had Company was not such as described. ' uttered for seeing those papers would very soon be Lord FOLKSTONE thought the subject to which satisfied from another quarter of the world. Should his Honourable Friend (Mr. Creevey) had called the the Chancellor he pleased to agree with the moving attention of the Directors of the East-India Company for those papers, it would relieve the House from was worthy of a more detailed answer. The state much future trouble in examining them when they ment which had been made, he wished to remind the were hurried with other and equally important busi- Honourable Director was from an exposition of their ness. own affairs, which actually made a balance against The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER them of fitceen millions. replied, that the American Ambassador had an audi- Mr. GRANT said, that the exposition of the Court ence of leave, and that he had left behind him his of Directors did'not warrant the affirmation of :he Charge d'Affaires, who would carry on the diploma- Hon. Gentleman nor the Noble Lord. They were tic part of the mission ; so that the Hon. Gentleman only correct in one point, and that was in the amount had partly mistaken the meaning which he (the of the debt in which the Company was plunged; but Chancellor of the Exch . equerl had wished to convey. when they would glance their eyes at the noble and He could assure that Hon. Gentleman, than though immense territories, and other acquisitions which had differences were not then cemented between the two been accumulated in India, we would soon see that countries, he was convinced that there would be a to value them at twenty millions was not beyond their very happy termination to be expected seen. The worth. The Company, he said, had been much in- Hon. Gentleman had inquired if there were any jured by the mode of the Hon. Gentlerrian's proceed- objections on his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) ings, as well as by his speech. The country had found part to fu'rnish the House with copies of all the cor- much benefit from the Company, who had always respondence between Lord Wellesley and the Ante- met with a poor return, and now they were about to rican Minister. He had objections, and weighty ones add injury to neglect. too, to such a hasty and inconsiderate measure. The Lord A. HAMILTON contended that. dividends American Government had undoubtedly acted very could only be given on profits but that the Company forwardly in making such communications to their had proceeded to pay themselves before they would country as the Hon. Gentleman had stated. Such pay the public. He supported the motion. publications of penditig negotiations certainly tended Mr. ADAM said, that India was a warlike empire to hurt the important subject under discussion, and as well as a commercial one, and her arms sustained were highly prejudicial to the established political her commerce, therefore it was necessary her expences 'confidence of nations. It was much better for the should be paid, which ensured the means of her exis country that her hest interests were concealed from tense- It was the Company's funds which stretched proclamation to the world by public discussion, for the British power over India, and the Parli,.merit did then measures were thwarted and heavily animadver- right in voting the sum which was stated. ted on, and the parties began to haven mutual cold- Mr. THORNTON observed, that much as the ness and distrust of others' truth and good faith. Per- Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Creevey) had lamented sons were always forward enough to carry their own the miserable condition of the East-India Company, arguments far beyond the limits whi c h the interests he would be inclined to think that the Honourable of the country prescribed to private opinion--(Hoer, Gentleman would have no objections to some of their hear.) He would therefore oppose the bringing for. bonds and to a little' pittance of their territory. It ward of papers not finally closed, which were warm was impossible to go ini discussions without docu and recent from the hands of the negotiators, and assents, therefore he would forbear ; but he could not • could not be produced without offering an injury to resist saying the Company were ttinch on the advance ' the political reverence which we had maintained to- • since last year. wards our negociating Ministers; and should Ame- « Sir HENRY MONTGOMERY observed, that rica, as the lion. Gentleman had stated, publish her athose who would promote inquiry, v..ere among the y papers, it would be an act of much harm to the nem. best friends the Compan possessed. rail confidence of nations , and would retard the bud-. Mr.' HENRY SMITH contended, that the Coro nets of negociatioa, and offer violence to the affection „piny, under every disadvantage, were perfectly justi. which ' lad so long • subsisted WOMB almrpre,colus• flails , " their commercial profits in making the diri- r' . deed they had made. is would be a IrrnSl 'Waist of common sense, and evidence of his diiitrust 'as to the quantum of that faculty possessed by the Howe, were he to assert that the.national debt amounted to a sum the pressure of which the nation was utrlble ti • support. Yet Gentlemen, in the statement r:)ey made with respect to the affairs of the Vast India-, Company, seemed to have been influenced by views to those which might have led him to hazard such an assertion ; in both cases a transien- glance created alarm which investigation would cagily dispel, where. ever neither interest nor prejudice lurked to resist its operation. Lord FOLKSTONE read a document in support of certain statements he had made, and the propriety of which had been called•in question in the course of the debate. Motion agreed to. Sir JOHN NEWPORT asked if the Hon. Gentle. man opposite intended to give notice, as he had been led to suppose he would, of a motion for the renewal of the Company's charter : to which Mr. DUNDAS answered in the affirmative. LINEN MANUFACTORY IN IRELAND. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill to repeal so much of an Act of the 3cl of his present Majesty, for the better regulation of the Linen Manufacture in Ireland, as was found to defeat rather than promote the ptlrpose for which it had been originally designed. He observed, that a peti. Con, praying the repeal - in question, had been trans. mitted to the House, by the very class of people in Ireland for the protection of whose property the law had been originally framed, it having been found rather to produce impunity in the offender than lead to his punishment. The Irish were a people very ho nourably distinguished by humane and generous feel. ings. Laws of inordinate severity were even more frequently counteracted in Ireland, by the reluctance of Juries to convict, than in England ; a considerably greater number of acquittals took place in the former country in proportion to the number of indictments. Sir JOAN NEWPORT coincided in opinion with his Hon. Friend who had just sat down, as to the po licy of repeal in the present instance. When a crimi nal, if convicted, is doomed to a punishment sn vastly disproportioned to his offence, if such punishment be not intercepted by feelings which it would be a libel on our species to assert were not common at least in undergoing it, he would have more pity due to the martyr than the abhorrence which should attend on guilt. if guilt and punishment were duly propor• tinned, we should frequently see mankind eagerly unite to procure conviction of offenders in cues where now they rather hope for acquittal. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY then moved for leave to bring in a Bill of similar import, affecting this part of the United Kingdom. WIVES AND CHILDREN/ OF SOLDIERS,. Mr. FULLER presented a petition from some of his constituents in Sussex, stating that improper uml was made of monies levied for the use of wives and children of soldiers; that consequently several parishes had been subjected to fresh levies not a little burtherta some, and praying relief. The SECRETARY at WAR said, that Govern. ment was perfectly aware of the existence of the evil s and would endeavour to provide a suitable remedy. Petition ordered to lie on the table. PENSIONS OF FOREIGN MINISTER& Mr. LEECH rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill to repeal a statute affecting the interests of di plomatic agents. He observed, that it was of essential consequence to the interests of the country, that men engaged in the various functions of diplomacy, should be men of a respectable rank in life, and of highly finished education. Was it reasonable, he asked, to require that such persons should detach themselves from a profession or other pursuit at home, which might afford them a prospect of a permanent and lu crative establishment to serve their country, content with present remuneration, and subject to be turned adrift hereafter without the means of subsistence If this were to be the termination of their labour, how .could it be expected that Government could obtain per sons in sufficient numbers,andwith therequisiteendow. ments? But laying aside for the present all conside rations as to the impolicy of reducing the standard of diplomatic capacity, he would confine himself to laying a claim for justice on behalf of those indivi duals against whose rights an ex part facto law had I been enacted. In the Reform Bill of 1782,a certain ' proportion of the emoluments of every diplomatic agent was assigned for his reward after the period of his service ; and must not every individual who en gaged in a diplomatic employment subsequently have considered the Legislature as pledged to him for the remuneration by which he has been, as it were, in vited into office ; but the act of last Session goes to change altogether the nature of the employment, so that no person can now accept of it with safety, who is not furnished with some other source of subsistence. Whatever the House might in its wisdom decide with respect to such persons as seatin future engage in diplomatic situations, he trusted they would not per mit the retractive power of the law in question to re main. Mr. ABERCROMBIE could not approve of his Honourable Friend's view c,f the effects of Mr. Burke's Bill of 1782. The principle upon which he went seemed to him altogether incorrect, and tending, if admitted, to give stability to every evil which an erro neous judgment in the Legislature might have once sanctioned. He would instance a case wherein it ' might have been applied with the most pernicious effect. Some years since the Commander-in-Chief had made a salutary regulation with respect to the army, by virtue of which it became necessary that an officer should be of a certain time standing each rank before he could ascend to the one above it ;—must not the officers of that day have complained of in. justice with as much propriety as was to be found in the complaint made by his Honourable Friend on the I part•of the diplomatists; but what would have been thought or said if they had done so ? He hoped the notice of this case alone would suffice for the exposure of the principle. Mr.WILBERFORCE thought adistinction should be made between persons who had devoted any con siderable portion of their'time to diplomatic employ, ment, and those whose services did not extend beyond the period of a year or two. Mr - ,ER • it was equally essential-before any insinuations were thrown out, intimating a departure from such a fair administration of the law, that the most positive and! kudisPutabluviramla *auk bur established. Such he WC penou In a ycat atvut Mr. FULLER was of opinion, that any minor ft% gitiatiOTTS should be, left to Government.—Motioa agreed to. PILICITIMAIRT BOOM Mr. SECREUR:Y- RYDER ma paratant to a • !4