Star. — London, England, 1819-03-27 00:00:00

doubtless impnrtnio, hutthey were duties which a'Sec tion and delicacy would render elip lllestrices Duke anxious to perform. They were duties, too, connected with no circumstances that called for addi limed ex iaise. The bringing forward this proposition, he 111hest sotte, was nothing e! -e than making application . ' to — Pariremer.t for nihnev on false pretences. The . Arsterieationeif it bad nix . de the whole country, from one en 4 to the other, ring with cortplaints at the in jwtice Of a Folioed. which w :like hostile to the -011itaneete , 400" insulting to the mideratindino of the • 1 4 ° - I' l4 .* heing;no, ferward this Invasive Ministers lei neither consaleerd es hot was due to the character ate nlusteious Dar. one ui :hat resist: for his family which it vote their duty to inculcate.. Of the nature of the effect produced by this.proposition through the country, the Noble Lord was perhaps not aware; but he could aS!.II re him, that it was of a most serious netare. The Noble Lord had referred to the grant for the Queen, as an example for what he now prco-osed; but lec shouol rather refer to it as a warning to their Lordships not to suffer themselves to he drawn into similar measures ; for when such gout; were once conceded, they were sure to ho held up as precedents for future demands, no less unjusti fiable and extravagant. The .Noble Lola had in ferred, that if the grant was proper to the Queen, it must be proper to the Duke. For his part he denied its propriety to either of them. He regarded it as most unjustifiable in both cases. ale! or any other of their Lordships had not ful:ilied their duty in opposing the grant on a former oceasion, they were the more bound to resist it now. The• argument founded on precedent enuldi then }ere, hove; nu. weight.. This .objection, tbeirLorelehips would .observe, did not ap ply to the principle of 14 Bill, -which, as far as it went with respect to reductions,he. %Fished to support. • The Earl of Ii A,RROWBY was 'eerisible that the subject to which the Noble Earl. had alluded in the latter part of his speech, was one which would best be discussed in the Committee. lz would then be for their Lordehips to consider, whether the proposi tion was hostile to the interests and insulting to the understanding of the public, as the Noble Earl called it, or one called for by a sense of justice and of what was due to the dignity of the Crown. lle should not anticipate what would be the result of that dis cussion ; nor would he have said a word on the pre sent question, had he not been anxious that the grounds on which the Bill was supported should not be misunderstood; that their Lordships should not be eupposed to concur in the principle on which the l:oble Lord had consented to give it his support. ekccording to the principle laid down by the Noble Lord, it would be necessary for Parliament to insti tute an investigation, in order to see how low the Es tablishment at Windsor could be reduced, if all re gard to decorum and dignity were set aside. The Noble Lord was willing to allow whatever might be necessary for the comfort of the Royal sufferer, but nothing more. He trusted their Lordships would never pass the Bill under the idea that it was limited to such an cbject. The principle laid down by the 7cble Lord amounted merely to this—that if their Lordships provided food, lodging, and medical assis tance for his Majesty, under his present calamity, they sufficiently discharged their duty ? Thus that ruhe of provision which would be too narow for the guidance of a dutiful son or an affectionate relative was to be thought perfectly anal suited to their Lord chipe fooli,Eta in arrooeng An R.stabLlGluncnt for ti,. Sovereign of this great country—for him who, though by Paootatwee deprived of his reason, wis. still the I.•gal Monarch to whom their Lorciships'. allegiance was due. They were not then to be called upon to calculate whether the Establiihm:nt 171:ght be £2,000 or th 3,000 more or less. llr seated no more than fact when he thus spoke; for if once their Lordships were to consider that Parliament was bound only to provide for the necessary wants, and to attend to the personal comforts, of the King, know. ing, as they did, that nothing more was necessary to be done tot the. King in this respect than for any private individual, they would lower the respect of the people for the Throne, and place the Sovereign on.a level with the meanest of his subjects.—(//tar , hear,fi-onz the Minister:al benches). He busted that few of their Lordships entertained these ideas, and if any of them did, he hoped they would r . 1.4! and op pose the second reading of this Bill, as it ought not to be supported on such grounds. The Bill, though it was drawn up with all due regard to economy, proceeded on a principle entirely different—on the principle that, whatever reductions took place, the establishMorit to be provided for the King was not to be regulatel on a scale of splendor calculated only for a private individual ; that his Majesty was still to be viewed as -a part of the Constitution; and that, in znakiog'provision for him in his present situation, he was to he treated with that reverence which was due to qui head Of. the Government—(//ear hear, lions Me Ministirlisi benches). Their Lor dships should enter into, ale consideration of this measure, impress lid with the idea, that they were providing, not for 'the care;and' custo !y of an individual, but for the state and dignity of the Scivereign, so far as that state and dignity could be consulted consietently with his Majesty's unhappy situation, and the burdened con dition of the country; animated with sentiments of regret, that the anticipation of his recovery, which at tiro: made a more splendid Esxablishment necessary, WAS now no longer entertained ; lamenting that the nation could not continue, when that hope had ex pired, what it supported when that hope existed; acrd regretting that cousideretions of economy, and a rjgard for the distresses of the people, rendered the Xeductione necessary which had been proposed. These reductions were most ample, but they did not affect the principle that the present Establishment was pro posed for majesty, and ought to be supported as ,ne cessary to maintain the dignity of the Crown, andl the reverence due to the head of the Government of the eriuntry—Weer):' The Earl of CA fiLASLE remarked, that the Noble E ar l Apposite had Misunderstood the nature of his Noble Friend's observations. His Noble Friend had used one word which might have screened him f ern the Noble Earl's remarks, which was the " dignity" the. King. He 'begged leave to inquire, whether the grant had been given to the Queen, as Custos of the King's person 1: Thei...ari of LI . iFERFOOL replied, it was given to ken Majesty ex presslf tee cover extraordinary expenses. Earl Grin' rose.te evplaile In the whole of his tw eet/watery life, he had never heard ally thing -more nnwessar t. more unwarranted, and more cut Of place, than the remarks f it the n i'l,lle l'trl oppo site the Earl of Harrowlay, abstain is loyalty. He Oreyyuied no expressions which could furnish' r a pretext for the loyal efftiaion which their Lordships hail jut t heard. He Gould not pledgeilismc:noryits t 6 the particular ords he had used ; but, so far as I )se recollected, he st aid, that, with every sent:meat of reverence-for his afflicted Sovereign that could be in spired by the virtues of his life or the eminence of his station, he would support any expense that was essential to the maintenance of his dignity—( Hear.) only protested against that false plea of dignity 'which was brought to justify an extravagance which the people coul d . ill bear, and to maintu:n an useless splendour, which contrasted so inharmoniously with the teal circumstances of his Majesty.—(Year.)—lie was glad to hear, by a few weeds that dropt from the Noble Earl, that the distresses of the country were not overlooked in the construction of the pre sent measure; for to have heard the Noble Earl's speech in :ther parts, he should have supposed that he was opposing the reduction of the Windsor Esta bli%liment, proposed from this side of the House, ra• tlicr Than de;ending that reduction proposed by the Bill. He (Earl Grey) concluded by stating, that he had not expressed the sentiments attributed to him by the Noble Lark He had always declared he was ready to support the dignity of the Crown, with a due regard to the sufferings of the people The Earl of HARROW BY explained. He certainly had misapprehended the Noble Earl; for he under stood him in substance to say, that his consent to the bill would depend solely on the reductions of the ltoyal establishment it contained, and the relief to the country which it administered. The Lail of DARNLEY protested against the im putation which the Noble Earl had thrown on the Opposition side of the House, as if those on the one side yielded to the Noble Lords on the other in at tachment to their Sovereign and loyalty to the Con seitution. He had never, in the course of his Parlia mentary experience, heard a mole unwarrantable at tack.—The question was then carried, and the Bill being read a second time, was ordered to be commit ted for Monday.—The ouse then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. Svartztott, from the African Company, presented an Ao calm of the Number of Merchants composing that Association, trading to Africa, for the last year.—Ordered toile on the table. A Petition was presented from the Merchants anu Traders of Caernarvon against the Waal Road Bill. and praying to be heard by themselves or Counsel, against the same.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. BERKELEY PAGET presented a Petition from the In habitants and Traders of the Borough of Caernarvon against the Insolvent Debtors' BilL—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. BERKELEY PAGET also presented a Petition from cattalo Inhabitants of Anemia, against the blenai Road Bill. Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. BUTLER presented a Petition from the Inhale:tams of 1. - ilkenny, against the Window Tar.--Orderad to lie an the table. A Petitlun was presented from the County of ;Ltddingcon, against any further Duty on Coals. • Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH presented a Petition from Ogden, praying for a revision of the Penal Code. Also another Petition from the town of Epping, with a pryer to the same effect.—Both Petitions read s and ordered to lit on the table. Mr. cALcitArr presented a Petition from the to•.:r cf Malden, praying for relief from the Duties on Salt.—(lr:ered to Ue on the table. Mr. Davies and Mr. Pares Pates obtained leave of ab.em..e, the former for one week, and the latter for one. irlot.th. Lord DUNCANNON presented a Petit!cn from t"-, / 3 4 , - rough of Melton, against the knolvent Bill.—Ordered to he on the table. Sir JOHN NEWPORT oostermad %is Marine i.e...lea rise this day, till Tuesday next. Mr. WHARTON presented a Petition from certain Inhabi- 1 tants interested by land property, against any proposed altert , Bona oa the River Were.—Ordered to lie on the table. • • Mr. LA 1/ITON presented a Petition from the Debtors in the Gaol of Durham, praying far a Renewal of the Insolvint I Bill, with such amendments as the House, In its wisdom, should think fic.—Read, and referred to the Committee now sittlaz. Mr. BENNET merely noticed that he had no occasion to call the attention of the House to his intended Motion for this day, relative to instructions to the Committee on Gaols and Im prisuuments, to make particular inquiry into the state and regu lations respecting Convicts, the Committee having promised to bestow their attention on the subject. The names of the Defaelters on the ballots of yesterday were called over, and, with the few exceptions of those who obtained leave of absence, they were all excused till Tuesday wet. Mr. WILLIAM SMITH presented a Petition from the In habitants of Norwich, against the Insolvent Ball.—Referred to the Committee now sitting. • A Message Irons the Lords intimated that their Lordship* bad agreed to several Bills, including the Rechaquer alli Bill, withuat any amendments; 'and that they had also agreed to the l'uor Laws Bill with some amendments, which were 'submitted to the coadderation of that House. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH presented three Pe titions, namely, one from the town of Elgin, the second from the town of Peebles, and the third front the town of Dumfries, all praying for a Reforn; itt the Intental Government of the Boroughs of Scot- - land. To the contents of the last Petition,. the Hon. and Learned Gentleman called the particular atten el:telt:de of the subject. The grievances of which the Petitioners complained were eivoratons, end de served the immediate attention of;Pirliament., The Mmistrates," - whol4a 'die eeiiireotenirgement.6l she Public Funds, without any ravensibdity . I)dtand themselves, had also the power of electing. their friends to the chief Offices of the AlagistrAer . ; and when the time of the latter expired, those who went out of office re-electcd their friends again as their suc cessors. Thus there was always a ccatinnance of the same set in power, by the friendly changes or politi-, cal arrangements now desetibed. The inhabitants who paid taxes and 'local rate, had no centroul what ever over those who assumed the Inauagenient of their pecuniary affairs. By the ridsruanagement, if not profligacy, of some of the persons alluded to, the funds of several of the Burghs had not only fallen into a state of I:cay, but were at last in an actual state of bankrurtcy. • The Petition lion Dumfries, now the mere diate subject of discussion, was then read, ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. The other two Petitions experienced a similar re ception from the House. Sir WILLIAM DOUGLAS presented a Petition from the Inhabitants of the Burgh of Annan, praying for a Reform in the Internal Government of the', Scottish Burghs.—lt was read, ordered to he on the table, and to be printed. NEW SOUTH wiitts. Mr. BENNET rose, parsaant to his notice of mov ring the House, to instruct the Corr,.. , aittec on Gaols, to take into consideration the state of New South Wales. lie was happy to infortn the House, that there was no occasion for him to proceed with his Motion, as the Committee had come to a resolution of turning their attention to the Stlbj2Ct v.ithout any further delay. Particular circuit.stances had pre vented them from taking it into consideration that morning; but the investigation would certainly be commenced on Monday morning. 90PYRIGHT. Mr. JOHN SMITH called the attention of the House to the contents of a Petition which he row held in his hand, prayin ,, for a repeal of the Law re lating to Copy-right. The Petition was signed by certain Booksellers of great respectabilit y—ramely, Lackington, Hughes, Harding, Jones, &c. stating the great hardships which they now endured by being obliged to furnish the Universities and certain. Li braries with eleven copies of every publication be 7 longing to them. By six works alone, their loss from these copies would amount to £ l / 4 2,400. The Petition mentioned several other hardships connected with the subj.ect. It was received, read, ordered to lie oil the table, and to be printed. artrAcrt OF I'RIVILECE. Lord ALTHOP.P solicited the attention of the Hous':, whilst he detailed to it a most gross violation of its privileges, which had lately occurred. A sol dier of the first Regiment of Guards, named William Stilton, had been summoned to attend and giveevi dence before the Committee appointed to decide on the melits of the Worcester Election. He had at tended at the House of Commons, and had been exa mined, on Saturday last. As he was retiring 'from The room in which the Committee sat, and was cross ing the lobby of the House, lie . was arrested by a ser pant in the Guards, for a military oXence which lie had committed; that offence was his absence from parade, in consequence of his attendance at the House .sit Commons. The Committee, an hearing of the 'Circumstance, had not taken any immediate notice of it; because they thought that when the soldier's con-, duct was explained to his Officers, nothing would be dope to punish him- Since that time, the man had been tried by a Court Martial, though snienCe had. not, lie believed, been passed upon him. He thought that such a transaction was well worthy their consi deration: for his own part, he must denounce it as a most Sagrant breach of privilege, to arrest, in the precincts of the House, any witness who was in at-' tendance pursuant to its orders. They ought in all cases to punish with severity any breach of 'their pri vileges ; but still more so when the breach was com mitted by a military man. The Hon. H. TOWNSHEND rnaintaimed that the soldier, Stinton, had not been punished in conse quence of his absence from the parade: lie had be haved ill in many other respects. He had endea voured to escape from the serjeant who had arrested him, and in consequence had been brought to a Court Martial.. What the sentence of that Court was, he could not say, because he was not at p:e:ent acquainted with it. Lord ALTHORP said across the table that he had nothing to do with the subsequent proceedings. He complained of the breach of pi ivilege which had been committed by arresting the soldier in the lobby of the House. tion of the House, The Petitioners complained of Sir M. W. RIDLEY thought that such an outrage serious grievances arising from an undue Election of ought to be marked by the censure of the i louse en the Corporation or Magistrates. The signatures to the individual who had been guilty ois it. this Petition contained those of the most respectable Mr. TIERNEY said, that the real question was, Gentlemen of the Borough of Dumfries ; and the whether the soldier had or bud not been arrested lion. and Learned Member was also bound to say, whilst he was in attendance upon a summons from that the language of the Petition was strictly corm:- a Committee of the House? Now it appeared that tutional, not emboldened or maddened by the wild he had been so arrested, and arrested also in the pre and visionary ideas which were.so apt to unhinge the, ciacts of the Hir:se. The seri zi. , .nz, therefore, who vital principles of society. It therefore was justly had arrested him had certainly transgressed against entitled to the attention of the House. The griev- their privileges. ances of which they complained, in eommon with Mr. BECKENT, the Judge' Advocate, made some the other Petitioners for the Reform of the Scottish remarks,• but in a tone of voice so very low, that it Boroughs, had long been patiently endured by the was impossible to hear a single sentence of his speech people, thelatter thinking that some salutary amend- in the Gallery. • , ment would be brought forward, to afford that ge- Mr. TIERNEY, in , reply, said that it was quite Heral satisfaction which the natives of Scotland had clear that the House ought to tale immediate snea so often hoped fee in vain. Finding, horever, that sures.to vindicate its privileges. no remedy could be expected from those 'who had" Mr. Bli,ltiN.Ti.T observed, that as the soldier had possession of the government of the Bomuglic of been illegally arrested in the first instance, he did Scotland, the people were at last driven to the tie- - not tee why he, the soldier, should be punished for cessity of applying to Parliament for relief.. They au attempted escape from an arrest which, in point had been progressively advancing, every yoarnearet- of law, was no arrest at all. He also maintained, and nzarer to the attainment of their grand object ; that is the- arrest wart illegal; any punishment infik and it was to be hoped that the time was not very tcd on the soldier.; fcs his eadeusours to escape from remote when they would be fully gratified. Sir' that 'arrest, would Le highly illegal. Fer his own James went into some local details; remarking, that 'parti he (Mr. pelmet) should wish to see the Minutes out of the 411,000 interested in the mblects• in the ortiod Court Mirtial. . . year tBll, a sufficient number had not heeit , featod 1 •-gir • CHARLES MONCIE thought, that as 'the to consent to the amelioration of a system which led othek Courrs;Of the country And the privilege'sifiki: so long disgraced the internal goierntlitnt 'of the , tocring . theirvrituevses hunt invest, the iktistsofeann-• Royal Boroughs of Scotland'. • ' - • • 'iniinr., the highest of them all, was surely ensitled to Mr. MAC ELAND very much approved of the' li'ilinilar privilek4. I serrations which had fallen Rom: the Hinvonrobjo ; Lair:JAPAN: 11ACEINTICKiII obvtgrved, that a' aed Learned Gentleman (Sir.Jarnes Mackinvg4-,- ,govesetiaut; trt tirtlx of priviler hod never Fitch Tons.' Jis Mr. 14aitlana) was very sensible i,f, th 9 vast *cosi, espe4llyvriitt: it was to:it:4 to have•bceit • SA • • • .. . ~...-!. • . - • • .•.'y .o. al*:,.-7.1:. 1.1! !-.• . .r-, .• . . 26 1 / 1 1 W --,. ; 1 .1 • • • perpetrated by a military man.-- (he.,. 1 ., during the course cf a recent examination, • bad been committed for merely th;er cr ,:....., '" the witnesses before the House, surely q,...• best on them not to overlook such a gr.•c s • feat co:trage on its privileges as had bee n e of. Ile bad heard wit% surprise ar.d • the docrines which bad :we,: ,rated Advocate. that I.eainect seeme. that an ignorance of the privileges of tlie enough to be considered as an excuse fr.: ilium. But when the individual blot. , •• • the Bar, the truth would be disuir,ed, • quote punishrofmt, no doubt, would h e j. 1!. .! ct ,, him. Though ignorance riht h e pl c tc:ed nuatiGn of his offence, it cou ld 7:re: 52 sufficient excuse for such a breach. should be called to the Bar of the llott,e ed the witness, the charge preferred • .." • • I should also be laid bet; , re them, to;n:,er minutes of the Court-Martial assembled to , r; Such a Court-Martial baci. g been held, he consider as an additional bleach. The llo.:s e not be satisfied at all events without the charg e r ferred against Stinson being laid before them. • Mr. BENNET said, the soldier perhaps had ::!4! 1 for the Ccurt-Martial ; because, if he cad nnt. might have been, punished without it --theer,!::..:. L.-rd ALTHO)tP moved, that the Serjexa c . : . ..4 First Guards, employed to arrest Stinton, shtai:,!;, t ordered to attend at the Bar un Tueiday next, The SPEAKER then put the question, on rhYs Mr.W. WYNN thought it objectionable to a.1i,n1,- 1 the consideration of the question fur so long a pet- 3 Ott Mouday, although there was much iinFam t business to be done, th ere could be nrchi , 3 n i l l ,i ir . portant than the business b:fore them. I 3 T..;. , , e;i:li:i 1 the Howie ought no t' o separate lidiout colui!. ! 13 some decision forthwith. If in an arrest in a iitil case during the la,t Parliament the parts circa - itz hai been pnnis!!ed, certainly, when the breac.i !:.,: been committed by a military rtlicer, tilt irt,m, punishment should be rnoq summarily old i.i.:anti neonsl: inflicte.3.—qicar, hear.) The CHANCELLOR cf the D.:CHEQUER wished the attendance of the Stee-tot to ha in:r..edie.t.. Lord ALTHORP, amidst feud of • with," withdrew his motion. Mr. BARRY, thought the .4 emC., , yed t, arrest," should be altered into " t!id arres:," was put ajd carried.__ FREEMANTLE was . orinio” name of the Serjeant who arrenei StiAter. embodiettin the motion. The Hon. General TOWN.SHEND said :.c .•ue the man, and alitaugh ignorant of his r.A.A' : have him brought latward if the House re (Hear, and cries of Yes.) Mr. W. WYNS:E would have Stiatem, the seldier, liberated furthwith.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. BENNET moved that an :.cconnt of thr Ccrr .Martial, with the Minutes of the same, before the House. Mr. BECK ETT said, that Stinto^ havin, tried for a military offence, it would M• coatrar : the usual practice to produce such minute . Mr. SMITH considered the answer of the last Speaker as rendering it doubly necessary to upon the production of the minutes of the Court- Martial.—(Neer ) • • • _ Mr. BENNET still thought two breaches ;Tains: the House had been comrrntted, one in the arrest, and the second in 111 - Co art-Martial ;,he therefore risliel for its proce2dins. M r. saw pa peanut whatsoever to pro duce them.. . Mr. W. WYNNE tinniest no in - Convenience possibly result, by delaysng the motion for the p:c duction of the minutes of the Court Martial for a few hours ; inasmuch as they might calculate upon cb r raining from tho soldier Srinton, or the Serjeant sviio arrested him, some subsequent knslwledge of the pro. ceedings adopted in consequence of his arrest. A. Messozn. whose name we could not learn, salt, 'it would be satisfactory to all parties to see t;.l charges preferred against the soldier. Mr. BENNET then withdrew his motion, rP° 2 which Mr. W. WvNN moved, '•that the soldier. S:ia• ton. should he brought to the Bar of the forthwith."—Ordered. EDWARII O'HARA. 11r. BENNF.T presented a Petition from a perszn of the name of Edward O'Hara, who not being able to pay his Taxes, had a warrant issued against him by the Commissioners of Taxes, contrary to the Act authorising, them to ascertain his property previously to Ins being committed to Newgate. To Nesvgatc.• however, he was committed for ten days, with feions, some of them even ordeted for transportation— ( Hear. hiwr)..—After the lapse of ten days he was liberated by one of the Judges, who plainly saw the • scandalous conduct which bad been pursued towatds the unfortunate individual. The House of Commons was the depositary of the public grievances, and their redress, and it could be no justification or redress to Mr. O'Hara, that he had an action against the per son who had so expressly and falsely committed him. Ills debt amounted to about L 3 ; and for the injury he suffered in his person, character, mat, and family, an action against the personlilto arrested him could be 110 satisfaction whatever. Under all thew circumstances he should therefore move that the Pe tition be brought up. He should also state, the law required a debtor to the Crown to be confined in the Sheriffs Prison, as was the case in the different counties of England; but the prison of Newgate was no such prison. The Petition was then ordered to lie on the table. MENAI ADAM DILL. Upcn the Order of the Day being read for the se cond reading of the Menai Roads hills, . Sir li. WILLIAMS made Several objections to tne Bill; but also signified his intention not to divide. the I louse upon the question, until the Report had beer. brought up. . Sir ) ()KKR said'he should' have no obieetie to . the liill it the money was to be raised by ithliv lualig i but as the provesition wee to have it vote.: the tlonie; he-Shottlititpit it. . Sir W.'W. WINN tt . s typinted the till. 11. rAcqu. opposed it. Ile did not think the bridge so absolmelrmeeessary as it was reprt ' ientect. It.cottld not fad to injure naeigagion. :Lk fryARNPIL iupptn,i,e2 tLe 13. a. The (Ti. iv464;700.4.; pdk QMJ ger: :,~. _ _ • r !,,,tit IN= I r ' 'se Of . ii gr. fl' rast:i nc:. : ii eiat v 0r CO, r iven v red - 3 5,0 b e cai iii t° be l'o than at :e:e the I • • Tbe v r: no Ito into 0: we P , - ,. ; •iatio , l r ;-:' pi 00aourat ,eisure , rig s at " rote that Nion rc ould le and i!ey law 'vlatag -ell as 'ilge• ' t•:, uml4 ~lr. B '~ ~i r t • .~~ igre t to gr ie t th Sir JC : erect th :at line Aied a x atees I :clam Llill st.:::e IJ ‘‘ lose trequen M. V ti eve t 7 lionou inconsi Ito the DT:.CY‘ , The *t ilr w tle Mr. [fmte ir:ca P ..ard Aia and :i ":„