Star. — London, England, 1807-04-14 00:00:00

r I .tt • Such, he had no doubt, would t be the cafe of the Catholics of Ireland, 'if confidence were placed in them, and opportunities given them to lbew_their gratitude and attachment. For their endeavours to died this great national porpofe 'he confidered the late Minifiers as entitled to the higheß praife, and as fuch the prefent motion had his hearty fupport. • Lord.SIDMOUTH laid, he was glad to bear the motion matte by the troble Lord who fpoke tall but 'one as he felt it impo ffi ble to affent to the propo fi • tion-ofebe Noble Marquis; and he felt alfo, that it *as tatjually impoffible for him to meet it with a ne enger. It appeared to him, that the motion of ad : . jcturtement was the only one that was proper to get - rid of the-quellion, without coming to any refolutton . on it, which the previous queßion would not have • done. He confidered the prefent motion to be foun ded on the explanation that took place previous to the reeefs. He owed it to his Noble Friends to de clare explicitly, that men were never placed in a fituation of greater difficulty. A mutilated account had been publifhed of the caufe of difference, in the public papers, berths they had refigned their offices, which fully warranted them, in his opinion, in afking 'permiffion to vindicate their charaders, thus unfairly attacked. A Noble Baron who fpoke early in the debate, had told their Lordfhips, that they were called on to refolve on the mere authority of newt paper paragraphs, and without any Parliamentary foundation. He had, in the courfe of the difcuffion, obferved many things which were much mifunder- Hood ; and much as he daplored that the fubjed was brought into difcbffion at all, yet having been fo .'brought before the Houfe, it ought to be correfly .known. Intreating the patience and indulgence of the Houfe, he would lay before them all the circum stances as they came to his knowledge. The Earl of,I(ADNOR here fpoke to order, on the ground that the Noble Vifcount could not enter into fuch a detail, without infringing the oath of fe- Crecy he had taken as a Ptivy Councillor. Lord SIDMOUTH continued and laid, he was about to inform their Lordfhips of the details which bad come to his knowledge, if he had not been in terrupted. He was, however, abfolved from the oath of fecrecY . , by a permiffion to make this (Fate iuent, and he helped he fhould not, in doing it, be any more interrtilited. When his Majetty's late Mi nifters came into office, they did fo in a manner al together-unfettered and unrearained. He under flood there wit to mention as to the Catholic CZ - Lief tion, and their opinions on that fubjeft were deci fively known. For his own part, having an opinion on that point which was very different from that of many of his Noble and Right Honourable Col. leagues, he candidly mentioned to the Noble Lord , and a Right Hon. Gentleman (now no more), that he hoped the Catholic gliellion Auld never again be agitated. The point which he felt the greatett anxi ety to imprefs on their Lordfhips' minds was, that be thobgbt the mifconceptions which had taken place extraordinary, .and that the difpatch of the Flt at February, with the obferiations which accompanied h, could not have been mifonderllood. Flom the commencement of the late Adminithation, he ob ferved that his Noble and Right ,Honourable Col leagues were extremely anxious to abflain from every thing relative to the Catholic queftion, till after the, receipt of intelligence of tome dihurbances having a itifen in Ireland ; and in February a difpatch, drawn up at Lord Spencer's, was fubmitted to his Majetly, to render general the Ad of 1793 made in favour of the Catholics of Ireland- He then Rated, that it appeared to him there was no alternative but to re peal the Ira Ad, or agree to that then propofed. A Minute of the Cabinet was afterwards communi cated to the King, and on the following day, the ith of February, at the Qu een's Houfe, his Vaiefil declared, in unquali fi ed terms, he could not attend to any new arrangements in favour of the Catholics: The Difpatch contained the whole of the propofition, and he,,conlidered it as a _limited pro porition. It was fo ufiderßood.by Lord Howick. and by the Noble Lord who lately fat on the Woolfaek, who Paid he underftood it as a corollary to the Ad Of 1791. . Mr. Elliot, however, conceived a doubt about:it, and it was returned for more pofitive and • decifive information. The next Rep he had to notice was, tbil which tools place •after it was undertlood that the'Bill went to a greater . extent. Some few days afterwards, his Right Honourable Friend, the judge Advocate General, was called on to prepare tome Claufes for the Mutiny Bill, and he then in formed bim the meafure was of treater extent than he bad underftood it. He went immediately to the Foreign Office, and mentioned the circumßante, and was there affirred by the Noble Lore 4 that every patticle of .the Bill fhould be well underflood before it was brought into Parliament. On the 4th March the King expreffed a repugnance to the whole tricafure, and declared he never meant to gobeyond the _Aft of 1793. On the gth and 6th of March, Lord Howick brought it forward; and finding that the Bill wctit further than he intended or thoughtof, he in the week following refigned his office ; but his Majelty Commanded him not to !digt,.; and the Noble Lcrd at the head of the Adminiftratinn requelled alto that he would wave his intention. He never law tl:e re prefentation nor the anfwer returned to it by his Ma jetty. He never contemplated there flipulations as they have been reprefented, but with regret. He was ture they were made with the bet intentions, and trom what the parties deemed tactile of the duty they owed themfelvet ; but they mull recoiled that his Majefly, in , formiog the Adminiftration, had never mentioned the quellion, and on its fire in trodudion had agreed to it with reludance ; and it was not to be wondered at, that when he found it went fo much further than• he expelled, he thould feel much anxiety and uneafinefs. When hh Mojelly required a pledge that this queßion fhould no more be preffed on his attention, he thought it was to be confidered as a painful proof that they did not poffifs fo much of his confidence as they had done, and he, for his own part, fhould have begged to re fign his office. With refped to the facred maxim of the Conititutian, " That the King can do no wrong," it muff be under Rood to mean as to all acts of the Executive Government; in other cafes he might cer tainly aft without advifers. He believed, in the prifent cafe, his Majefly ailed from an internal im pulfe of bis own heart, and if their Lordfhips did not believe there was a fecret advifer, the refolution direfts Well* againft the perfon of the King. What had been faid by the Noble Baron who fpoke lalt, as the opinion of an i ll ulitiois Nobleman (Lord Chi- tham), refpeAing fecret advifers, he could partly anfwer from hicown obfervation, and the informa tion he had derived from that great Statefman who had been at-the head of his Majeay's Councils fur upwards of feiehteen years, who had told him, that he , had never difcovered a trace of that fe cret infldenee that had been alluded to. In the courfe of the four years he had the honour to be in the fame fituation, he could alfo fairly and truly fay the fame. There was no febjeft of equal importance with that of upholding the Royal Authority; and therefore he did not approve of inquiries of this natnre into the motives of the Sovereign. Whatever might be fuppofed by fome Noble Lords, the great body of the Catholics of Ireland would be fatisfied that his Welly was now influenced by the fame pa ternal regard which was the conflant guide of his life. He meant to refill any propofition to fetter or controul the Royal prerogative ; and upon all thefe grounds he lbould oppofe the original motion. The Earl of LAUDERDALE appealed to their Lordfhips' own recolleition, as to what had been the conduit of Parliament in_the beR time of our hillory. Did not Parliament then confider, as indeed it was an acknowledged principle of our Conflitution, that the legal and ollenfible Advifers of the Crown were alone refponfible for every thing that was done by the Monarch ? And when the King thought proper to take an Aft entirely to himfelf, by giving a certi ficate under his own hand, as an indemnification to Miniflers for their condor% did not Parliament maintain, that it was an addition to his crime, that he had thus furrendered his own refponfibility ? Let Noble Lords confider then for a moment , if - - - it be not equally criminal, at leaft in Come coati derable degree culpable, condo& in the prefent Minifters, that they have at kali virtually affumed the management of Public Affairs, on a condition, that they will not, if the preteaion of his Majefty's Crown, and the falvatinn of the Empire depended on it, prefume to mention to their Royal Mailer, perhaps the only topic that it was their !worn duty to advance, and flrengthen by their recommends• tion ? Would not a •forbearance to urge a topic that might pollibly be molt effentially interefting to the general welfare of the Sovereign and his People, be highly criminal in the Servants of the Crown? If his Msjefly's late Miniflers had' given a pledge of the nature that had been demanded of them, would they not then have given up the exercife of their own judgment, for which alone they could he deemed refponfible—and would they not, for loch bale furrender of their own refponfibility, be junly liable to punifhment ? If his Majelly's pre• fent bliniflets have denied the admillion of !itch a principle as this, they, unqueflionably, when the change in his Majedy's Councils was occafioned by a refufal to fetter their judgment for ever after, and feal up their lips upon a particular queßion; when this was known to be the cafe, and when it was not attempted to be denied that the principle upon which fuch a refufal was given was truly conditutional, molt un queftionably thole Noble Lords who fucceeded his Majelly's late Minitlers in office, ought to have de clared themfelves, and let their Sovereign know what was their opinion on this great Conititutional Q2ellion. If they did fo, it was a matter which could eafily be proved, that they did fo in fo many terms. Tf they did not fo declare themfelves, they accepted of office with at lead the implication of a pledge of the nature that had been fpoken of, and were highly culpable ; but if they entered on office with a potitive Ripulation, they were guilty of a crime in the eyes of the - Conftitution,for which they are anfwerable to Parliament. It was Rated that his Majedy had, at a particular time, when it was known that thole Noble Lords were not the the acknowledged Conftitu tional Advifers of the Crcwn, been waited upon by a Noble Lord oppofite (Lord Hawke(bury) and the Noble Lord now on the Woolfack ; and he was in formed that in lets than two hours after that time, a Noble Lord who does not ufually make up his I mind in fo fhort a fpace of time, that Noble Lord agreed to draw at leaft the outline of a new Admi niaration. A Noble Duke in the blue ribbon (the Duke of Portland) alfo fecretly waited on the King, at a time when he was not a refponfible fervant of the Crown. Yet it was a remarkable fad, that many of thole who thus came into the Admlnillration of the public affairs, had, on a former occafion, either direaly, or by implication, given their countenance ' and fupport to a meafure of a fimilar nature, but which was conftderably more extenfive in degree than that which had led to the demanding of that pledge, which it was admitted had been mod conftitutionally withheld. One Noble Lord in particular, who is not a Member of this Houfe, (Lord Calllereagh) had mod unequivocally, and even officially, encouraged the Catholics of Ireland to hope for the general participation in the enjoyment of thofe rights which are at prefent enjoyed by every Protedant (tibial of the Britilh Empire. The Pledge is itfelf acknow ledged to be unconftitutional, and with relpe& to the (,),Lredion which preceded that, (the claims of the Roman Catholics) it is an incontrovertible fad, that it had the fupport of the molt enlightened Statefmen , in Great Britain on a former eccallon, and even of tome of the leading Members of this very Admini ftration that now oppofe the meafure. Lord MULGRAVE declared, that not one fen tence of the import to which the Noble Lord who had jun fat down had alluded, had ever been com mitted to paper by his Majefty's prefent Minitters, nor had it been required of them. He denied, how ever, that the confidential advifers of the Crown, bad a right, on every oceafion, to ad ftrialy, ac. cording to their own opinion. This was in a great meafure to be regulated by, circumltances; and, if on fuck a queftion as that which was now the fubjea of their , Lordihips' confideration, the, fetvants of the Crown fhould happen unfortunately to differ in opinion from their Royal Mader, it was their duty to retire. It was a general stsaxim in the Britifh Confti tution, that the advifers of the Crown fhould give fuch advice according ,to the bell of their own free and unbia (fed judgment ; but human inftitutions were not fo perfectly whole and entire that there could not be the leaft exception to fuch a general principle. If King Williams for inftancr, fhould have been advifed to grant the fmalled indulgence to the Roman Ca tholics, it would, then have been his intereft to make ufe of his royal authority in oppofition to Inch ad vice, and it would be criminal in an! Waffler to have preffed hia Killion againft that of has Sovereign, un• der fuch,s;ycnalflatmess even if he fhould have. reafon to fuppofe that hisionin opinion "as the molt con. ducive to the interett of the Kin hunfelf. The Earl of LIMERICK alto oppored the motion. He Paid that many of the bin* Catholics were at prefent difaffeeted, and he would with to give them a fpeedy and a pofitive denial, as to the indulgences which they claimed, that they fhould no further have hopes, that they lhould not hereafter have any ground for complaining of hopes deferred. There had lately been Upon a Northern Circuit fome perfons convicted of riotous conduel, and fhortly after that eight of the witneffes were Murdered. Afterwards there were great enormities committed at Sligo, as if they meant No dare the Government. What ! would you give up to faction and clamour what you refufe to Loyal Iteprefentation? (Hear! hear!) There were two cafes which he could innance, where two of the molt loyal gentlemen in Ireland were profecuted ; they were certainly honourably acquitted, but the Judges them. (elves obferved, that they had never teen f sch a' fcandalous confpiracy againft any man, as that againtl them was; their loyalty was fuppofed to be their only crime. It would be unbecoming the dignity of Par liament to grant any indulgence to men that were in . the temper that the Catholics of Ireland at prefent were in. Lord HOLLAND expreffed his furprife at find ing the Noble Lord connefting his difapprobation of the Bill, with a charge of factious motives. He de. nied the charge, as applied to himfelf and his late colleagues He polled high encomiums on the con duet purfued by the late Lord Lieutenant (the Duke of Bedford), and afferted, that the late Ad miniftration would lilten to no meafures which mi litated againft the genuine maxims of the Contli tution. They had difcountenanced all violent pro ceedings, when individuals in Ireland were found in a (late of infubordination. The change of Mi lliners at this critical period, was injurious to the interefl" of the country. He denied the charge, that the dircutlion of the prefent queftion was the bringing of the Monarch to the Bar of the Houfe, or to be at iffue with the Crown. The freedom of the country,' and the fpirit of the Conflitution, hinged upon the principle, that the King could do no wrong ; and, from the inftance of Lord Danby, he infifled, that when the intentions of the Executive Government were put into writing, and thus into a tangible fhape, it was fair to demand who were the fecret advifers ? In the prefent intlance, he had a right to infer, that thofe who fucceeded to oneufible and refponlible fitnations of Government, were fo to be confidered. If this principle were not conceded, the Conflitution was gone for ever. lie denied the ditlinelion made by a Noble Vifcount, 'between the King's agiflative and Executive chat aeler. Were Minilters, when they came into office, to give any l i pledge of their future advice to the Sovereign. they would counteract the firit principles of the Conßitution ; fo Sir William Temple toll Charles, the Second, that for his Majeßy's Centre hors not to give counfel, was more than his Majefty could de mand, becaufe it involved a contradiction. He de nied the dnetrine,that there was no important meafure but what muff firft originate with Government. The creature of Parliamentary Reform, by the late Mr. Pitt, as well as the Abolition of the Slave Trade by the lite Minitler, store inaances of practice to the contrary. His Lordlirip, in conclution, obferved, that above all things, it was the greateft misfortune to the country to have Minitters who not only made an unconnitutional pledge, but had alto made a pledge againft four millions of his Majefty's fubjeets, fo as to that the door againft their claims for ever. Ltrd WESTMORLAND fpok:: at great length againtt the motion. He reminded their Lordthips that he was called to order, tome time ago, by a Noble Baron ( Lord Grenville,) for laying that the King's Mink:cis came down to that Houle to fpeak the King's fentiments. Now, however, a different example was exhibited. and had brought his Ma jeßy's name into ditcuflion, not in the heat of debate, but under the pretext of replying to what had been Rated by the Editors of Newfpapers. Lord DARNLEY regretted, that the Catholic quellicn had been brought into difctiflion, as he thought its frequent difcullion calculated to produce much mifchief. He difapproved, however, of the advice which had been given to his Majelly, to de mand a pledge from the late Adminiftration. It had beer, laid, that it was the object of his Noble Friends to form a vexatious oppontion, but that certainly could not be their intention. Much as he refpeeted them, he would not join any Oppofition formed on Inch a principle. Lord GRENVILLE laid, when he confidered the talent, the energy, and ability of his Majefty's late Minillers, he could not look upon their difmif fal, but with the *unroll regret ; the more efpecially when he controlled them with thofe at prefent in of. uce ; and particularly when he reflected upon the very finconflitutional language, which had been held out by them on that night ;---and, notwithflanding the extraordinary arguments they made ufe of, and I the garbled flatement of Las which had appeared before the public, nothing whatever had been urged that could !hake the opinion of that public, and the Country in general, with refpeet to the conduct of himfell and his worthy colleagues. Much had been laid about the manner in which this meafure had been brought before the Sovereign, and it was fpoken of as a thing unheard of and unconnituti. onal, to lay before His Majefly the draft of any Difpatch which was intended for a Glvernor or Lord Lieutenant of any diftant fettlement ; but he confidered it the molt uniform and regular way of proceeding, to lay a minute of the Difpatch before she Sovereign, fur his confideration ; nor could he in any degree fee any thing improper or unconaitutional in this. The Noble Lord then en tered into a minute detail of the feveral communi cations with his Majelly upon this fuhjed ; and he declared, that it was perfectly underflood that his Majefty had.affented to the AR to - the fulleft extent of the propofed claufes ; his Majesty was thereby to be enabled to grant to Roman Catholics and all other Diffenters every military commiffion or appoint ment whatfoever. And therefore, lot,king back at the manner in which the fubjeet was brought before the King, he did not think the late Minitit y deferred the reproaches can upon them by a Noble Lord op pofite ( Lord Limeriok.) Had a Noble Lord (Cal tlereagh) been in that Houle, he would have afked him, when he was the confidential Minifter of the Crown in Ireland, why he fhould have recommend ed a meafure as indifpenfably neceffary for the wel fare of that part of the United Kingdom, of which he now thought quite otherwife ? His Lordfhip next adverted to. the Ad of '793, and Contended thif 03 . 4 Ad now palpated being fimilar to it, was not at all contrary tb, or in the !lighten degree a violation of, the Coronation Oath. The Noble Lord next adverted to the clamour which had been railed abroad, to the bale and unjuflifiable means which were reforted to,to diffufe improper notions throna,h. out every part of the country, and to excite thole religious prejudices which the Ham of the world had proved to have curled and ruined every country where they were fuffered to be propagated. Since the appointment of the Houle of Hanover to the government of thofe realms, this dark and dan. gerous policy was but once aided upon, and it mull: be in the recollc&ion of the Houle, the great and difmal effati of the mifchiefs which were the confe quence. It mull be recollected, when the infuriate cry of " No Popery" had nearly deftroyed this great and glorious metropolis in one general conflagration. It does not require any great depth of ref a-ch, any wiBe extent of reafoning, or fcope of ingenuity, to exercife Inch expedients for perfonal and profitable views. For his part, he defpifcd the clamour of infanity ; his attachment to the Proteflant Church made him revere that ellablifhment, and the pre cepts of Chrillianity taught him to difarprove of profcription, perfecution, and a fy km of exclu fion. He had no perfonal conliderations fur the idle, unfounded, and, he feared, malignant tu•bulence, which was excited. The pet lons who had stirred it up, or encouraged it, might contit u: to placard the walls with the words of " N r Popery ;" they may have it indented in paltry for their gratification; hut he felt for his country, under fuch a fyllem of calamity, he dreaded its fate under the government of men who could either propagate or promote it, at a period when every thing that was dear and valuable to England, and to the civilized world, was menaced by an enemy, the moll powerful that ever affailed us in the annals of our national exiflence. No man had a higher refped for Christian feelings, no man was lefs incliaed to prejudge the views, or to mifreprelent the motives of others. It was true that the GRE•T AL MIGHTY Roast of the Univerfe, was alone competent to afcertain the motives which actuated the fentiments which infpired the human heart. But of men's adions he would judge, and the a &ions of the prefent Mini (try were calculated to involve us in intelline corn. motion and general ruin. With refped to the limit which the pledge called upon the late Ministry to put to the claims of the Irith Catholics, he would afk the Houle, he would put it tothebrean of every Noble Lord, was it prepared to fay, there is nothing to hope, nothing in perfpedive ; no fettle of gratitude, no difplay of loyalty, no deeds of gallantry, patri otifm, or glory, (hall ever operate to raife you to the enjoyment of thole privilege, to which by your adions you are In well entitled ? No, to Catholic conceflion there is an eternal bar ; to Catholic pc. tition there Ctills a determined denial throughout all the revolutions of times and circumftancea, thrbughout the ehole progrcfs of nor national great ads or vicillitudes. Von, the Catholics of Ireland, are doomed to interminable each' lion, O am nec longs di. s yietas nee mitigat ullam. Lord lIAWKESBURY role, at half pall five, to reply to Lord Grenville. From the latenefs of the flour, it is impoffible to give the lead 11,--etch of his arguments. Lord CAMDEN oppofed the original motion, and vin3icated his condo & with refpe& to the pat t he took in the Catk.lic quettion in 18ot. Lord MOIRA lupported the refolu•iin moved by the Noble Marquis, and pointed out the unconaitn. tional nature of the pledge which had been requited from the Members of the late Adminiltration. The LORD CHANCELLOR faid, that the whole of the proceedings on the two debates tefpeeling the cirenmtlances which led to the change of Adminittra- Lion, wet e irregular, unparliamentary, and unconlli tutional. He was prepared to take upon himfelf all the refponfibility which could attach to his fituation ; but had the late Miniffers remained in office, from the manner in which they proceeded, they would have thrown all the refponfibility of the Government on the King. It had been infinuated in another place that he was the perfon who advifed the change of Adminilltation ; bin that infinuation he had treated with contempt. All the pledge which he had given to his Majefly, was the pledge which his paft condu& afforded. The Duke of NORFOLK faid a few words in fupport of the, original motion. The quellion was then loudly called for, and their Lordlhips divided on the queftion 44 That this Houfe do now ae.journ." - Contcnts—Prcfent, I3s—Proxics, 36--r 7t. Non-contents—Prefent, f 9 Prortes, z t-90. Majority in favour of Adminiftration, Bt. Mjiurned at 7 o'Clock this Morning.—(ruetclay). HOUSE OF COMMONS. New Writs were ordered for the Borough of St. Michael, In Cornwall, and of Great Bedwin, in the room of Sir Arthur Wel ltiley, and Lord Stopford, who have accepted offices under his Majefty; as alfn for the Boroughs of Marlborough and Eye, in the room of Lords Dalkeith and Huntly, called op to the Houfe of Peers. POOR LAWS. Mr. WHITBREAD, in confequene• of the bufi nefs which was fixed for to-morrow, wifhed to poll pone the re committal of the Bill which he had brought in on that fubjeet till Friday. He took that opportunity of Rating, that in confequence of nu merous communications which he had received, he had thought that it would be the bell way to divide his original Bill into'three feparate Bills. Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE faid, that the objeet was one . which, perhaps, more,than any other, called for a molt deliberate conlideration and calm difcuffion. After the threat that was thrown out a few evenings ago, th:.t Parliament Mould be difl'elved if they did not agree t* this,or that meaftire of the prelent Ad. miniaration, it Bras almoff impotlible to expel', that, in the courfe of the prefent Sefiicn, or perhaps of the Parliament, if that threat &mild be ailed upon, there fhould be time for that ferious and calm confidera don which was neceffary for a fubjeet of fuel) magni tude, importance, and difficulty. He gave his Hon. Friend (Mr. Whitbread) great credit for the atten. lion be had bellowed to this fubjeft, and hoped, that a great part of his bill would be produetive of the belt confequences ; but he would differ from him oct fome points. Mr. WHITBREAD raid, it muff be, indeed, a pufillanimous Parliament that would fuffer Well to