Star. — London, England, 1811-01-03 00:00:00

t m e no ineenvenienees Would result to tlit Prince 'rola l'They . hid Said that the limitatt Me his being deprived ot the plower of nsalting a Peer- for- a- sheet slow.; but Nisi Cienkt theY . a twelvemonth.. As, well might he be deprived of the of the time they were to last ? They , power of making pence for a twelvemonth, because a a year. Would our enemy adjourn his peace had not been made for the last four years. But us for a year? And would they, in th he doubted the fact. Unless his memory failed him, ' deprive the Regent of the means of resisting ie. a learned and }Trost excellent persoe, for Alain been- • ( Hear, hear.) The only subject of consideration tertained the highest respect and re t 4 Lord Man- was, the duty the House had to fulfil in supplying, v e t e, had, within that period, been created a Peers for the defidency of the Executive Power, and putting made Lord Chancellor of Ireland. it i n ac ti v ity ; t o t hi s en d t h ey were to grant a corn the pttrposeof being The present proposition would restrain the Prince of petent power to the Regent to act in defence of the Wales in his choicenfa Chancellor to Lord Eldon, Lord country t. and instead of that, the measures pro- Erskine, or Lord Reddesdale, all highly respectable posed went to deprive the Regent of the Preroga individuals. But, suppose his Royal Highness-should tive, the very year, perhaps, that we were to fight wish to make choice of any other person —suppose he fur England itself on British ground. He would were to select his Honourable and Learned. Friend call upon the Gentlemen opposite to prove that the opposite—he would be restrained from appointing power formerly granted to our Kings for the defence him, unless his lion. and Learned Friend would sub- of our realm, waslnoier superfluous. This power mit to the inconvenience (being the great law-adviser was not to be considered as acting in. solitary uncon :of the Crown) to sit mute in the House of Peers, leav- nected instances, but uptitt the whole, Already hod inn); the defence of his measures to his colleagues. It Gentlemen opposite been forced to acknowledge the seemed an excoptiors to this restriction was lobe made imp'olicy of those restrictions they recommended, in favourotnavaiand militarymen. Till now,thePeer- in the case of creating Peers ; for they had pro age had been held to be the reward of civil as well es poseclan exception in favour of military Comman. of military merit. A Somers and a Clarendon, and ders who should achieve tome brilliant exploit dm - - in fete` times a Hordwicke and a Chatham ) had shown ing the Regency ; this exception itself proved the that that honour had not been confined t o milit a ry ser- necessity of that power being vested in the Regent; vices. For the first time an invidious line of distinct- nor could - any one maintain that the same necessity, tion was attempted to be drawn. The Hon. Gentle- would not occur in civil cases. But Ministees, ,they' man contended, that the provisions thus made were seemed to have said, " Let us try for a while how but for a short period. He (Mr. W.) heartily hoped little prerogative is necessary to do much ;" for lie, it might be so ; but if that period were to extend only would repeat it, the, question was not about this or to six weeks, he should still maintain that the Royal that peerage, but about the prerogetive.—(goire prerogatives ought to remain untouched ; and that ! hear). —Tile other restriction as to the grant ofl ete country ought not to be habituated to seeing then places went to secure to the present Ministers, who I abridged or' diminished. " I would then be in Opposition, a reversionary itiflu- Mr. Secretary RYDER declared, that the princi- f ence at the expence of the Regent's power; and ries on which he was induced to vote on the present i he. would ask, whether it was wise in the present occa sion, were drawn from the speech of the Nohlejtimee, to weaken Gavernmeat in order to strengthen relation of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sit 1 opposition, and that by an Act of Parliament?— down, pronounced during - the discussions in 1788 and ' (Hear, !star. )--Gentlemen seem to wish to reduce rO9, and published soon after that period—a speech l the Regent to the situation of a penal magis replete with depth o f researc h, p ers pi cu i t y of state- ; trate, with full powers to punish, but divested of wient, and eloquence of argumentation. His Hen. i that most important and most amiable attribute of and Learned Friend contended, that when •Parlia• power, that of recompensing. To justify such au meet on former occasions had d e legated ady of the extraordinary mode 'of proceeding, the Gentlemen royal authority, they delegated all. How was this :on the other side were bound to prove, first, that it proved ? Because Parliament had delegated the j was 'safe in these perilous times to deprive the royal authority to a Regent, accompanied by a Coun- I Regent of part of the Prerogative ; and , secondly, oil, w as it therefore to be asserted that the Regent that such precautions were necessary to secure! the received the royal authority unabridged ? Wleet restoration of the King in case of recovery. He difference was there between giving the whole au- would say secondly, because he thought that the thority to a Regent, but preventing him from using safety of the country was certainly the first considera it is ithout the c oncurrence of a Co u ncil; and giving tion. How could it be, for instance, necessary for the him a part of that authority, wholly unfettered.— King's restoration, that the Regent should be deprived If the latter were a breach of the fund a ment a l law of of the right of making Peers ? as if men would be the Constitution, the former could be nn less so. He found, who upon being created Peers, would enter adverted to all the precedents on the subject, and con. j into a conspiracy against their Sovereign, were even tended that it was established by them. That Parlia- i the Regent hose enough to desire it. As to the regu rnent was bound to limit tbe d e le ga tion of t h e Royal potions proposed for the Houeebold,. they went, in. Authority, in any manner that mi g ht a pp ear to them fac e to esteblish two Regents, one for Govern to be most, consistent ivith the public interest. But mcnt, and the other for Opposition.-- (Hear, it had been contended, thaft toes difference of eircum a hear.) —lie had the highest respect for her Ma , stances render it necessary to entrust mare power in jetty, and the most profound regard for her person, he the hands of the Regent at whe present than at any admired the many qualities which he was acknow- , fototer period. He was by no rireeps disposed to lcoged to possess, but she was not to act by. herself,. depreciate the dangers'alhaded toe He felt them as she was to have a Council ; and besides, in Legisia- ' wrongly as arty mafl. But still it remained to be Lica, they were not to look to . the qualities of a per- 'Aeon Whether any or ell of the restfietioee for one son, bswever illustrious, to remedy the detects of a tWelvettwirith could xis criliptotbegxectitive Greverd= bad law. By this distinction they would create a *rent as to enfeeble the Meapnies 'which Might W power which might eventually be, and most probably thought necessary for the, pitblitairety - Hi — could would be, in o d ersition to that of the Regent, already Trot hell! considering the subject ik:a . dillerent prat tit . ' restricted by laudations. But how were these litriita . view. It was kpoten that Ogre twaa a (prevailing syso tion naturally to act on the minds of the people, and 'tern of discrediting the general conduct of the Repre- to affect their loyalty ? Why, hi respect to the Prince, sentativee of the People=a system persevered in, be. these restrictions tau ht the people to believe, nut oatise'thoseq.whorn it was pursued were aware that only that he would . a bad Regent, but that he : they must vilify the Representatives of the l'eo.' Would not :be a good Mg. Gentlemen, then sup-, pie before they could compass their designs against . ..pose; that the King, on his recovery, would tint at first ! the Constitu ion. No course could that Howie inquire abets the illitatiint 'of the country, but call for. take, but by those individuals would k be perverted. the ghat ethis dOMestics ; they thus gave the people a Their criminations were not the advice of friends of- little' end` :contemptible idea of the Sovereign, and , fered for the good cf those to whom it was addressed, Make ther contemptible idea the ground of legislation. gunge invectives of enemies tending to destruction. i (Hear, heqr.) The comfort oaf a sick ding is to know, 1.-fe could not but apprehend that if the House ace, that the prosperityOf his people loiettot been impaired ceded to the amendment proposed , they would lay Iduring his. illness r . by these proceedimgs they would . themselves open to greater misapprehension; than ibe sore to deprive hint of that comfort ; and if they may which they hitherto incurred. Might' it not berl succeeded in carrying there, the King would have to said by their calumniators that they 'had sacrificed I peruse on his recovery, not the list of his domestics,_ their public duty to their private-interests ; and that i but the cetelogue of the misfortunes of his people.— in their Iraste to pay•enert to the rising sea they had ' (Hear, &«t..) Alt • - abandoned what their predecessors had ever , held most!. The MASTER of toe ./PDLLS defended the doc *feted ? Would,not d*l;k* species of chorge s hic,k! amine Qf prerSentl, notfanpa a, superstitious love of would make a inotilba,ti - ordinary impression on 1 antiquity, but breause7 was evidently far preferehloj their Constituents, and which world gain a greater 1y 0 hive a ctrta4) rule of conduct, than to float in per number of 'Proselytes to the cause of Iteforsh, as it I" twit uncertainty. He approved of that of 1788, as had been called, but actually of Revolution, than any' ointing, generally, the line of proceedings to be fol fe other th at it lead Irmo attempted to etteblish ? They I owed in the present instance. were engaged in'the'clischarge of. no ordinary oust; 1.. Mr. SHERIDAN entirely agreed on the general but of a duty almost as new acimportanto-a duty I t approbation which the speech otthe Right Hon. and , which co not have been foreseen bYtheir Consn- r earned Genti,eman who s e last wasneceivecl be e tuents when they returned them as their Representa- 11 parts of the.HMup • ; ail , so entirely agreeing in lives. If ever there was en occasion which impe- e I hat approbation, he f i elt e dikulty which would , rionsly called on them to be guided - by what they ;'devolve upon him in attemptispo follow the Learned believed to be the • coke of - the - People, fl leas the , 'Gentleman tlimugh all that train of logical masoning present. B r the voice of the : jienile lie did not and legal argument for which he was op conspicuous„ mean the /*tow of faptipit, but the caql,proje- i pyl whose talents were so eminently trenscepoant on Aerate, enddiSpaedp i nate ludgiteep, t elf . ti'' lnlciox- , ef legal dispittetions, I,Tpon a qiiestfpn 1 galle su ' the .1101 -- eel t4e : - - logicel - --- be ahr -- '4e, :ediffi- - lace d; r put of the community ; ,t 14 7. se.. .svhat itistrtiv ____argument, _ 4 they knew of the pu b fiensicaent dtls sub j ect ? cnitiof attempting to answer that Learned Gentleman, l'or his par , was convinced that the'pao which!: louwon the Present question, he conceived, it reentired :Ir. Pitt took in 1788 hid gone furthey to raise the no more than some common knowledge of tlie•Con .-.llarteter of that illustrious man, and to endear him t ; stittition, some general knowledge of preillident, and hi s cohntrynten, than any other measure of his aiAisti-; soma personal knowledge of the proceeding,, in 1:138 atistrati..in. He asked the House whether they /*alto answer all his reasoning, and reply tf„ai.l r ltis argu-, any reascai to believe that khe seltiments of the cows- i Meta. He therefore did not feel it great a pre try were altered since that period ? or whether the ' stuiption in him to rise and attempt to fallow the aer:d fedi /1 g of loyalty 4%1 4;ffeC(1.(111 to the Sove- speech of the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman, ; , -ifn, had ma gained go itiqn4l strength ? If they and he should first take notice of those expressions I.•,ebv that the earnest hope of the cou nty . ) , was, that .which fell from the Learned Gentleman in speaking is might a v ,, L i n live under the paternal care of his of the feelings of his Royal Highness the Prince of :.I.4osty, and that on this subject it 4voistiernhlisigly V7oleSt'and the Learned Gentleman conceived he was alive, from one end of it to the other would the paying his Royal Highness a high compliment, when House answer it to_their Constitglr rY deviated he said be thought his Royal Highness would not from the precedent which the Cottortyllad already so take it ill of any Member of that House expres.sing his decidedly approved ? ' 'PP candid opinion upon thep-csent question. The Learned Mr..GRA rI'AN, after taking a 'short view . of Gentleman did his Royal Highness no more than the state of the question, was decidedly Qf opinion common .justice in that sentiment: if he thought other that the nation had' a right to c.iltoct` their Re' wise he wontd . not be fit to become the Regent of this presentatives for the exercise of the whole of the Kingdom, or to be afterwards their Sovereign. But prerogative in the present instance, • whether the he wished the Learned Gentleman had gone a step be- Regent's power war vetted in one or many indivi• yond that of other Honourable Gentlemen on that side dials. The Gentlemen oPpp,Site bad Maintained of the House ,he wished he bad paisi a similar corn indeed, that torn* part_ of that prtrogatite might be ' pliment to his,roYal Father, whom those Honourable diipensed with for some time; bat be vrouid assert Gentlemen would represent, upon hi: recovery, v t s cas k ,was accessary at all tin*. (gear, bar.) tcebising the conduct of those who vespx,e4 40 give • ! . . . st4Bo.,Wt I ma— apestsane . ston t hat the : Regent should tot make *Pr Peers at all, wh: t Mr. Pitt had made upwards of qne htind:ed Pee,.; a.nd here he observed on. the dangerous, tendency of such an influence ; the House of Lords might haat tight all that the law on that sidejthe Rinse could the whole controul of the Government, or c o uld the e advance upon it, in the speech of the Learned Gen be a stronger proof theta nothiag but a party spirit deman, and while they sat there e in desolate sileece , guided the.proseedings of that House upon that oc; and dread repose," be thought the House had heard casion. By the same famous Bill,.it was provided all they might expect from that side, on the law of that the Queen should , have a Council of fitly per. the subject. —( Hear, hear, hear.)—Upon the precedent sans, and the four persons !toned in the Bill. to be of 1788 he hoped the candour of the Honourable her Majesty's Council were—The Archbishop of Gentlemen opposite would allow - to him, that those Canterbury, Lord Chancellor Thurlow, the Arch who took the contrary side freers the supporters of bishop of York; and Lord Kenyon—if any of these that measure were actuated by as fitirand;hoaest prin. personages should die, it might have been expected eiples as those. who upheld the Government of that that out of respect to the Law and the Church, the day. The cases which were laid most stress upon Heir Apparent might have some voice in the no: ih support of that prece4enr, were these of 61 and minetit et of the person to succeed such vacancy; but 84; but in these cases the measures were adopted by no ; the Prince of Wales was not to be trusted, and the King,. Lords and Commons, in their whole and her Majesty was to select the person who was Os fill, entire capacity ; apy thing. that was then done, was this situation, and as he must speak out boldly and 4one by the Constitution in a complete state, and tell the truth, the wle,le of the provisions of that therefore did not apply to the precedent of 1788 or BAI were nut framed as ageing: Princes generally. the presept case. But the Learned Gentleman says, but against the Prince of Wales. Their might ape " We are here to us.: Our own discretion, to do any point some one disgraceful to the Noble Personages thing that we may deem, most expedient ;" but it who composed this Council, and derogatory and t 'was not in their discretion to sit quiet and do nothing, disgraceful to the dignity cf the Royal authority it was their they to supply the Executive Govern- itsself he rejoiced, however, that this Bill had not hear.)—Lie agro...d to the two ad- found its way upon the Statute Books. They must journments which had token place ; and in this he not look therefore at this tneasure as the polar star had differed from the otrieion of those Honourable .to lead them safe into harbour, but as a beacon Friends with whoni he usually acted ; but• he did anti warning to stear clear of the rocks and qukk this from priuciple, and with a view to give every sands . which surrounded it. But it was odd ; that facility to the hope that was then entertained off,. that precedent, had, afterwards obtained the fall •his Majesty's speedy recovery. But was that any , sanction of his Majesty. There could not be a more reason they should now sit qdiet and do nothing, uafair, foul, and fallaciousorgument than this. What that because they had the discretion they should not , was meant by the sanction of the Royal authority ? use it ? But when this noted precedent of 1788 What did the speech from the throne say ? Nothing came to be considered, he, thought all these argir.' that could be construed into an approbation by the menu in its defence came to the ground. They I Royal mind of such a measure. Nothing that coulee s.tid, this precedent of 1788 was applicable to the i at all shew that his Majesty took notice of any dis. pre s ent case. He (Mr. S.) thought it totally dif- tinction whatsoever . Lord Thurlow declared in the ferent ; and he would say without affectation, and! House of. Peers, that his Majesty had felt the highest he was, sure, up3a conviction, that was that: satisfaction on the conduct of both fia!mses of Perlin- . great leader of that measure (Mr. Pitt) now alive, , anent ; and that however some members might differ he would give his vote against all these re- in opinion upon general principles, he was convinced striations, But the Learned Gentleman and the !of theii loyalty and attachment to his Person and' Ministers, or the Ministers and the Learned Cemicovernroeut. At to his M a je s ty' s p ersona l op i n i on tleman, seemed to forget all these laws in their lon the question, he conceived it was unparliamen character of Ministers; and the Learned end Right tary to quote that speech as that of his Majesty, Hon. Gentleman ( Mr. Beeretery Ryd'r) calls tea his but as the speech of his Ministers, and which was livid, a book written by a Noble Faiend of his at that' no more than an approbation of their own acts. time. " Oh !" but said the Learned and Right Hon. lA% he should have another opportunity of going at Gentlemen, " if his Hop. Friend (Mr. Wynne) read' large into other branches of this question, he should Lord Grenville's book, he would have thought not trouble the House with many more observations. otherwise.". He (Mr. Sheridan) thanked Gon his And having thus disabled this celebrated precedent Hon. Friend had not written a book. ( Hear, hear, of' 1788, he had little left to observe upon at presets. hear.) And the Right Hon. Gentleman said if he When they came to put the Great Seal to a Commie.: had read that book, he never would have made that sion for assembling both Houses, it. would give she% speech, He we; pretiy sure wheu Lord Grenville ; m ore th e c h aract e r o f a ;Parliament, and th en ',Gold, WAS writing that book in 1783, he dad not imagine ; be the time for 'considering the great Constitutiomet he eves writing it to an.wer his noble frieod in ; question. He could not, however, pass by a loe% 1810. But every men's speech on tic other side re-Ipoints of a Noble Lord's. (Castlereagh) speec'o o n a s iled upon the precedent of 178k3. We will have thelfermer night, without a few observations : Tab precedent 01..47" the whaele precedent of 1788, and Noble 40-4 would not .give the Regent the power nothing but the preitdatst4 178 S ; and this was thelof creating a single Peer, b u t h e wou ld give Literburtheit of their song, the summune bonier! of all their I absolute controul over the whale of the House.; perfacticons !--But groundedliimselt upon this are , hold. Thus the 'Noble Lord orclr both ways, but, guanent ; "that precedent, he thanked HEAVES / had to use a more applicable phrase, adhered , to his,. never found its way in the Stetuth Book ; and, altho' old maxim of two strings to his bow, and the words, if was on the soureels ct that Hoese, it was a disgrace of the Noble. Lord were worthy of particular no to those Journals, arid Irotild he blotted out for ever. M ice—!• Suppose," says th e. N o bl e L or d, " I was N.Vhat, lie asked, was the period at which this measure to be the Regent," and to . be sure the Noble Lord was adopted? It was a wile when the grossest fac- was highly qualified to fill.that exalted station 1 " or tions that ever disgraced Parliament existed on both suppcsa I was the Minister of the Regent, I should sides of the 1-rottae.— (Loud cheers, with cries of most earnestly advise the' Regent to withhold the Hear, hear, hear.) He wished nqt to recollect that ' gran t of' Peerage, because e 7 veld the Noble Lord, time—it was not tit to be remembered. He could you would thereby preyeet siren scene of jealousy, not but remember the words of M:. Berke upon .discord, and disagreement e ,M. ))our that occasion ;he could, mat faked them widn& Now he could not content. Why - recce,. . why. the Noble Lord the utile - a regret; he was ashamed to mpeat them. should fprm such an opinion, unless he himself had —He %%61 remembered also the words of Mr. fits, known of the existence of some of those jeelousies who said, that in point of right, his Royal Highness and discords in the Cabinet up(,n the question of cre the Prince of Wales had no more right to the Re- ing Peerages, and thus the Noble Lord would ease geocy thamany other man in the Ic4opioni. Such - the Regent by the extinction of the whole regal cha. • was the party spirit, of the time, such was the spirit raitn of the country. It certainly was a most excel. in which that measure was brought forward:- It was lent plan to give the Regent ease; to place the Regent . a knoWn and undoubted fact that his Royal High., on a ISed of Roses.—(Load. cheers, and hear, tear!) nes the Prince of Wales had Liken a political part He ausionid against exceeding their legislative ca. on drat occasion, that he had received great pro- pacity. It had been doubted, whether they had vocation for the part he had then taken, and had the pewee to issue writs for the election of Members. . been disgraced, degraded, 'and 'vilified by the ivii- They' ought not to remain an hour longer in their mater of that day, and was held out to the people perilous situation. 'What were the arguments ad as a man uutit to' be trusted wit; the Regal authority. Ahmed. by our arch enemy,. the Emperor bf - Franc*, And as A protif of the spirit in which that measure was against us e—they were,. that out) reonikht vfas supported, it lwas'a well-known and eclnowledged enfeebled; though Kings were made :foe! did people, fact that the Minister was fighting tar the aggrandize- and not the people for the. Kings. -This was the meat of his own power. The Prince was represented miserable of miseries; and thus it was the Devil as at the need of a faction to pull down and degrade. quoted Scripture, with a vengeance, against us !—. 1 the Regal dignity and authority. He stated this to (Cries of No ! no!)—The people of England were slew that the precedent of Mei did not apply in any not weary of the House of Brunswick. We were respect to the present c.ise. He held in his hand the still struggling, as we had struggled, for the noble s t 1 Bill of 1765, ;Ind in the Bill itself there WAS internal 1 possible condition of society. (Loud call: for the Quer evider.ce th:it the Regal authority should not be re. tic,; universal confusion sad reiterated clamour: for the 1 stticted at all. The very preamble of this Bill was Qaerries !) a' staring absurdity and run thus.—" Where:is-it has Mr. G. WILSON (who owing to npmar could become. expedient .;trod necessary to assist his hlajesty not distinctly be heard), supported the original Re. in the Government, of these Kingdoms." Was not solutions ; contending that the King was a blessing afan absurdity in itself, a conwlete humbug upon to the country, as•long as - he could be kept above the • • tli and common sense, and after this, would the political House ouse believe that th is was the famous precedent of Mr. horizon. CANNING wished not to detain the Hontie, Ipti, on which so much stres s bad be e n l a id, so much ! except for the purpose of disclaiming nine tenths of reliance had been placed ?He had the die/emcee, ill th e arguments bad been add uce d in support of be might so term fit, of being one of the Committee tare question. Allusions had been made, inconsiderate of that day, and as much had been said upon former leillusions, to deceased characters. What advantage s precedents, be begged to state to the House, that that ihowever, could ensue from raking the ashes of the Committee was net even allowed the time or opportu- dead, in -order to rekindle the flames of the living t silty of looking into the records, in order to Corm would not, for one, pluck stones from the monu title judgment upon it. Some fu s ty perchmetits cud, -meet of Mr. Fox, to erect an o th er to M r. Pi tt ; who . ' pp of bad lat,in and bad Fiend), were handed to the did not know this surreptitione species of coinmemos Committee of that day, of which they could make no- ration t We lived, nevertheless, in times of gigantic - thing, and this. it was contended was Sufficient au- stature, since Mr. Pitt was no longer to be deemed thou sty to graft the present proceeding' upon. Upon great—(Lied crier of Hear,)—though h e would defy': this point lie might quote the Jou rna l s of th a t House ( Gentlemen to prodice any estimate of greatness over and over again, but he was spared that labour which should exclude the character of Mr. Pitt. Of by the very elegant and enlightened speech of his his great rival, Mr. Fox, he thoughtlighle too. He Hon..and Learned -Friend (Mi. Leach) on a former would never lend a factious oppositioh to a new Ade night, Which bad lett him nothing to say upon the ministration, yet he must look with jealousy to h question of prec;edent. The object of the Bill of liati proceedings. went nearly tedisinherit his Royelklighness dee/bine* Sri SAMUEL ROMILLY, intruding for sem of Wales, to vilify and degrade that noble Pertooaset .moments on their attention, denied his having intn he toned, thetetoee, such a precedent wo u ld no t be d uce d t h e species of arrunstit complained °L . TI.. followed upon the present occasion. The single pre- Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Cenning) have ing ,first istroduced th s r n ew o f Mr. calm of 1788 then. was the whole of the cese of the Hatt. Gentlemen oppetsite. 13. )4111Kit be with the precedent of I 78S, and dn i: s i l t linis t, enainntithetthiot . . : • would tie only tor. .thefrit2l4l4o44l. - 1.0.6,e powsloot and r form an estimate 'frimrever these Geotlerieit Would wiTify the 'charattsv ley had mentioned land feelings of his Majesty, sure he was that the I his plans against beral and just sentiments of the royal mind would in the mean time. spurn, at Such an idea, • With regard to the question if resisting him ? of law , upon this subject s he thought they had this