Star. — London, England, 1809-03-24 00:00:00

nr',lll.l,l,l3lENiARr PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, THURSDAY,. MARCH ¶3. M•.ssre. A:lam and C;illics were heard on hel of the Respon- dent in the Appeal fair v. Macdonald. The further proceed- ills% were postponed 6 , 1 next Tuesday. The Jamaica Free Port Bill, th 7. Marine Mutiny Bill, and the two Expiring Laws' Continuation Ei!ls, were read a third time, passtd. _ _ The North Arr,ericati Fish Importation Bill passed through a Committee., and was rt•partol withnnt any amendment. The Crown Office Ch rks' Bill was read a second time, and or dered to be conuniced tc-morrow. ROXBURGH FEF:RAGF. The LORD CHANCELLOR rose, for the purpose of calling 1 their Lordships' attention to a few observations, with respect to • the present state of the different claims for the Roxburgh Peerage, as they now stood before the Committee of Privileges. The House would be aware that, on a former day, when the Com mittee last sat, Council were called to the Bar, and they were in formed of a Petition from General Walter Ker, presented to his Majesty, stating certain objections against the title of the Earl of Roxburgh being at all affected bv a certain charter which led to the Designation Deed of 14;48, and that he rested his claim en the original patent. The Learned Counsel generally on that occasion remarked, there was an objection to the Petition having been presented in this stage of the proceeding. But the House would so far he of a different opinion ; for it was certainly competent on this, as on other occasions, for his Majesty to receive such peti tions, and of course it became a fit subject for the consideration of their Lordships in their capacity of advisers to the King. It was on this Petition he should submit a particular motion, direct ing certain instructions to be laid before the Committee, leaving it to their discretion to hear one or two Counsel for the parties, re specting its merits. He would also recommend to the Commit tee, that the Lord Advocate of Scotland, and his Majesty's At torney-General, be likewise heard, if either of them were desirous to address them on the occasion. There was, in addition to what he bad stated, another subject of g reat importance, a considerable question would fall to the consideration of the House, when they came to decide upon the charter of 1648, anti there were in that instrument certain words " their heirs male," which required peculiar attention before they decided upon their import ; because should the decision not be consistent with the general law of Scot land, by which titles and estates were there held, it might tend to disturb rot only the law of landed property, but interfere with the security of the titles of some of the oldest families in that kingdom. From these consideratisms he was induced to move, " hat certain instructions he given to the Committee of Privi leges, that on Monday next they hear one or two Counsel, as sl a!1 be thought proper, on the subject of General Walter Kees Tuition, and also that the Lord Advocate and his Majesty's Attorney-Gereral he heard or. the same subject ; and likewise in the same manner that Counsel he further heard on the import and meanin g of the words " their heirs male," as joined with other terms expressed in the same. charter. The Lord Chanceloe's motion was agreed to. ,• The Fail of i4.3,5:.yx presented a Petition from the Debtor. of the Four Marshalsea Courts which was °reit:lt:a to be laid upon the table. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The Lorin API:OCA FE or SCO Tt.A ND reported the decision of the Newry Election Confmittee, that the sitting Member was duly elected, and that the petition of IsLac Corry, Esq. was nei ther frivolous or vow iemt. _ _ Mr. HARVEY' CHRISTIAN COMBE obtained leave to bring in a Bill to renew the Senday Toll at Biackfriars Bridge, and Mr. Wilberforce obtained similar leave relative to Westmin- Ater Bridge. A person from the Stamp-Office presented an Account of the • Balarces remaining in the hands of the different Collectors. Mr. BANKES brought up the Report of the Select Committee appointed to inquire into the Abuses of the East-India Company's Patronage. It was ordered to be printed. On the motion of Mr. ROSE the Thames Ballast Bill was read a first time. Second reading to-morrow. Mr. 'WHITBREAD gave notice of his intention on a future day, to move for the production of the last Letter of Sir John Moore to the Noble Lord opposite (Castlereagh). The House had on a former occasion been led to expect from what had fallen from that Noble Lord, that tithe. - the whole of that letter would be laid before it, or at least an extract. He, however, then un derstood, that it was now the determination of the King's Mi nisters not to produce that document in any shape ; and con ceiving, as he (lid, such a document most mcterial for the pub lic, in forming its decision upon the late operations in Sp M., he was convinced of the necessity of moving for its produ,ti..a.—• As a motion of a Noble Fiiend (Earl Temple) of his, relative to the production of the Corresponeknce which had taken place between Mr Frere and Sir John Moore, stood for Tuesday, he (Mr. Whitbread) conceived that day :ail a proper opportunity for his intended motion ; :rid he had to app. it.e the House that he would, when o:ln was 1", certainly bring it on. Lord CASTLEREACH presented a Return of !Ito Quantity of Stores brouzh. t;;r B:idsh .1r::.7 tram Spain. WHAR'i Itreas::: up tin port of the Committee; when the Resoluri•ms \ : a.td agreed to. A Member was s'svorn A message :torn the I im.se of Peers announced, that their Lordships had artreed to the amaica Free l'ort Bill, the Ex piring Laws Nil, ii,:l for making the Expiring Laws perpetual, and a Bill for Th.: bt tzer N.,Trlition of the Royal Marines while on shore, without ;:::y amendment ; and also to several private Bills. Mr. SHAW br.mglit up the Dublin Water Bill, which was read a first time. Mr. MELLISH presented a Bill for regulating the Poor of the Parish of St. Clements, which was read a nr4 On the motion of Mr. ASHLEY COOPER, the House re solved itself into a Committee of the whole House, on the Dover Sands' BilL The Report was ordered to he received to-morrow. Mr. PARNELL moved for an Account of Monies raised by way of tax for paving the City of Dublin, within a limited pe :Lod. He also moved for a Copy of the Report of the Commis sioners for Paving the said City, as presented to the Lord Lieute bant of Ireland ; both of which were ordered accordingly. The Mal‘a Ships' Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow. A New Writ was ordered for a Burgess to serve in Parliament for the City of Cashel, in the room of Mr. Dick, who since his Election had accepted the Office of Escheator of Munster. COTTON MANCFACTUREIts OF LANCASIiIItE. Upon motion that the petition of the Cotton Ma nufacturers of Lancashire be referred to a Com mittee, Mr. DAVIES GIDDY observed, that this Peti tion contained propositions which it was impossible for the House to entertain ; he believed there was not one pers-n in the House but concurred with him upon Or: • übject—yet it was desirable, as it con cerned so large a body of people, that something should be dune to relieve their distresses. Mr. CU amEN said, that alth:ligh the Petitioners wished for a minimum to be fixed to regulate their work, yet they had ..d,o to c..roplain of the manu facturers taking :in nAttnited number of apprentices. Laws existed to prevent other trades being overrun, and they wi:died for a similar protection ; at present, when a manufacturer wented additional hands, in stead of employing th,,se who had been bred to the busintss, he foino.l it his advantage to take an addi tion number of apprentices, and thus the workmen were kit destit,ite of employment. Mr. WILBRAHANI BOOTLE: thought the Ho noureble Gentleman's observations only applicable to cotton-printers, and not to the cotton-weavers. Mr. BARING said, that to entertain the Petition, for the purpose of regulating the apprentices, would only be deluding these poor people ; the prayer of the Petition bore that on the very face of it, which must prevent its bring heard. Mr. BLACKBURNE said, that when he was re questf.d to present the Petition, he informed the dele gates, that the principle of a minimum could nut be P listened to. Mr. WHITBREAD said, that when the dele-I gates of these unfortunate people waited on him to solicit his advice and support, as he supposed they had on several other Hon. Members,he told them, that principle was destructive of their views, but they did not know what else to propose, and hey wished it might be referred to a Committee, where they appre hended wiser heads, as they expressed it, might sug gest something better. He did not mean to argue upon the propriety of this suggestion, or the fitness of the Petition, but thought if the Petition was referred to a Committee, they might in their Report, from the terms in which they could couch it, say something which would tend to appease the feelings of the Pe ti ti one rs. He therefore proposed, that it should be referred to a Committee. Mr. ROSE said, he had had conversations on the subject with the Petitioners, and had pointed out the objections ; they, however, had thought fit to present their Petition. He coincided with what had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Whitbread.) After a few words from Mr. BOOTLE, the ques. tion was put " that - the Petition be referred to a Committee, who shall report their opinion upon the same, to the House," which was agreed to. IRISH SPIRIT LAWS. Mr. FOSTER moved, " That the House resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to con- sider the laws respecting Irish Spirits." The House then went into said Committee, when Mr. Fovrep moved, That it is expedient, during the Prohibi tion of Distilling from Corn or Grain in Ireland, that the Duty on Sugar should be lowered." This was agreed to, and the Chairman obtained leave to report the same to the House. IRISH FLAX-SEED BOUNTY BILL. On the motion of Mr. FosTaft, the House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House upon this Bill. Mr. BARING objected to the principles upon which this Bill had been introduced. It had been de- fended as a temporary measure, on which grounds be condemned it ; it could not possibly do any good, as the seed could not he produced in time for the pur poses required. It had been said the measure should be pursued, even were a free intercourse immediately opened with America ; if it were intended as a gene ral measure, as a general encouragement for grow ing seed in Ireland, this was not the proper mode ; they should not give a bounty to the grower, but should lay a duty on the importer. Mr. FOSTER, in reply, wished to say that he had never talked of it as a temporary measure, but as the first step, the ground-work of a general system to render Ireland independent of foreign countries. If the people of Ireland had caught the alarm from the present state of affairs, and were apprehensive for their usual supply of seed, this would operate as a stimulus, and induce them to co-operate, and thus their apprehension would be productive of good, and would avert the evil which they had apprehended.— This measure was the beginning of a system which would lay the found:ttion for the general improve ment of that country; it would probably induce thee to drain their lands, an 4 he should have conceived himself reprehensible, had he been giddy enough so soon to ha-►e proposed a tax, . Sir JOHN NEWPORT gave his sanction to the Bill, with a view of giving Ireland a fair trial. He however hoped, when the measure was carried, that care would be taken how the sum granted was ex pended. He thought this caution the more neces-' sary, as the Irish Linen Company had received money under the Appropriation Act, for distinct pur poses, which they had applied to other objects ; they had laid out part of the money in buildiug, in viola tion of that Act. This he intended to prove by mo ving the papers, where it would be found, in the ar chitect's account, that money had been laid out, not by order of the Board, but by the order of two or three individuals. As to the measure before the Com mittee, he thought it should be adopted for the rea sons which he had stated last night, and also because Ireland could no lenger expect seed from Sicily or Greece. That they were' excluded from America, the people had to thank those who had introduced the Orders in Council, as it was owing to those Or ders Ireland was now placed in the situation_ she is with America. Mr. FOSTER said, the Honourable Gentleman had asserted that no flax seed was to be expected from Sicily or Greece ; he however could state, that flax seed had actually been received from Sicily and parts adjacent, and that it was good, and that it was liked, and that more was expected. As to the appro priation of the money to which the Hon. Baronet had alluded, he could only say, that it was agreeable to the provisions of the Act. Sir JOHN NEWPORT replied, that if flax seed had arrived, he did not know it, which he might have done, had the information he had sought been allowed h;m. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the Honourable Baronet should be careful how he made assertions, as they tended to delude ; and considered it no excuse for his being ignorant on the subject, because what he had wished had not been allowed him. The Honourable Baronet had also said, what was commonly heard from that side of the House, that the Embargo was to be attributed to the Orders in Council, which they were not able to prove. This was what he should always deny—he would always maintain the contrary—the Embargo was laid on antecedent to the Orders in Council—the Americans had adopted that measure, anticipating the event which followed—they knew, that if a spark ,A spirit remained in the country, his Majesty's Mi nisters would do as they had done. Whenever, therefore, such an assertion was made, he would contradict it. But, even had it been the case, they were justified in doing as they did, for they had bet ter submit to the risk of loss, than submit to any in- Sir JOHN NEWPORT contended, that in what ever the Embargo might have originated, the con tinuance of it was fairly to be ascribed to the perse verance of Ministers in the measure of the Orders in Council, instead of conciliating America at a time it my.tt have been done to the • mutual advantage of bunt countries. Mr. BASTARD observed, that if the measure were adopted with a view to agricultural improve ment, the same bounty ought to be extended to both countries ; and expressed a hope that some measure would be speedily adopted for the purpose of bringing all the waste lands into cultivation. • Mr. ROSE supported the Chancellor of the Ex- Lord J. CAMPBELL moved an amendment, that chequer in the assertion that the Embargo was laid the debate should be deferred till Tuesday, upon the on in America before the existence of the Orders in ground that there were some Members absent at the Council was known there. Assizes who had particularly considered this case, arc ! Mr. PARNELL was of opinion that the bounty' who wished to deliver their sentiments upon it, and would be too small, not snore than five shillings a to this amendment, he hoped the Hon. Mover would hogshead, on the quantity of seed required ; if that have no objection. were not the sole object, and if agricultural improve- • Mr. WHITBREAD thought the grounds stated ment were intended, he conceived from the bad state quite inadequate, as the absence of particular Mem of the culture of lands in Ireland, it would be better bers might at any time be urged for postponing a to begin with the other species of land first, and post- debate ; therefore, however he regretted the necessity pone the improvement of their bogs till that was first of resisting any proposition coming from the Noble effected. i Lord, he should certainly oppose the amendment Mr. FOSTER explained the principle of the mea- , He was sorry to see any individual in the situation is sure to be, the giving Ireland a kind of monopoly in which General Clavering had placed himself; but L e flax seed of her own growth, till such time as the price would be still more sorry to see that House neglect should rise to such a height as to make it necessary its duty, or expose its character to the imputatioT, to open the market for the sale of the manufacture. wishing to screen any person from condign pu :) , s; . He lamented differing in opinion from the Hon. Gen- meat. tleman, who was not only his relation, but from Mr.ELLISON followed on the same side, ob s ,, n ., whom he had formerly received effectual assistance , ing, that, when the situation of Sandell was in his official situation. dered, to allow any further delay in deciding up ,„ Mr. PARNELL, after explaining, said it was cer- ' the case before the House, would not be cousi.:tea• tainly true he had had the honour of assisting the with the principle of impartial justice. Right Honourable Gentleman, but had resigned in Sir M. RIDLEY begged Gentlemen to consi t L ; the prospect of a seat in that House ; a nd upon that ' the peculiar situation of GeneralClavering, whose ch.i. event, he had found it his duty to take a seat on the ratter and prospects were so deeply involved. When side opposite to him, as he was not educated in the the meanest individual was accused in any Court in same school. the country, he was allowed the aid of Counsel te, After some further observations from Mr. BARING, plead his cause, and that was allthat was applied for in Mr. ROSE, and the Cisiorczu.ost of the Excitant:2N this instance.—TheLearned Gentlemen who had exa. the Bill was passed in the Committee, and the House mined General Clavering's case, and prepared being resumed, the report was ordered to be received speak their minds upon it, being out of tow n, tomorrow. `only requested the indulgence of a few days to wait GENERAL CLAVER.NO. their return—when it was recollected that none of t I It ; Upon Mr. C. WYNNE rising to move resump- postponements which had already taken place ;,pe a tion of the debate upon the subject of Gen. Clavering, this business was solicited by General Clavering w The SPEAKER. took occasion to observe, that he any of his friends, he hoped this single applicatio:. had received a letter from that Officer asserting his would not be rejected. This Officer continued to de clare before GOD and his country, and he believed innocence, and expressing his readiness to submit to the jurisdiction of the House, which letter the Right the truth of his assertions, that he was totally inno. Honourable Gentleman added, he would read if cent of any intentional prevarication, but that hi> called upon to do so. incorrectness, which he admitted, was the effect of Mr. C. WYNNE could not conceive such a pro- inaccurate recollection, and a misconception of the ceeding regular in this instance, as he had not so con- questions put to him. Under those, combined with sidered with regard to the letter of the Duke of York, the death of a near relation, which aggravated the which he had intended to make the subject of a spe- sufferings of General Clavering, he submitted to the cific motion. This intention, however, he was now feelings of the House, whether the Amendment induced to wave, in consequence of what had oc- ought not to be acceded to. curred since he gave his notice. The House having Mr. C. WYNNE said, that it was for the Howe resolved, that after the resignation of the Duke of to decide upon the Amendment. His object, from the York, it was unnecessary to take any further proceed- beginning was, that no delay should take place re, ing relative to his case, and the Right Honourable spectingthis transaction, and in the course he followed Gentleman on the opposite side (the Chancellor of he had to yield to the wishes of others. With regard Exchequer), having explained ; that the most objec- to the Amendment, he declined to give any opinion. tionable passage in the letter alluded to, was not de- The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER signed to convey the meaning imputed to it, and stated, that if the motion were his, be would yield to which it appeared to him and his Friends to import ; the proposed Amendment, as he would, on any occa• but still more, understanding that this objectionable sion, rather err on the side of indulgence than of passage was suggested from another quarter, and in- harshness. He thought it but justice to accede to serted in the letter against his Royal Highness's own the Amendment, if it were proposed by the accused judgment, he was induced to abandon his intended to call witnesses. motion. But with respect to the question which Mr. WHITBREAD observed, that such a pie stood for the order of the day, he felt it his duty to position was not stated as a ground for postponement. bring it forward. It was now ' Lore the House, and The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, it was for its consideration to d' se of it as it thought had heard the names of the Duke of Argyle and Lord proper. . —ars:— Moira mentioned as witnesses. The CHANCEWiabiC oi, ix ? EXCHEQUER The SPEAKER thought it right to state, flea was glad to fin 4 that the honourable Gentleman this was not a case which admitted of any farther tes had abandoned the notice he referred to ; at the timony. The House was to judge for itself from the same time, adding that he was perfectly ready to evidence before it, and from what it saw of the co;.- meet the discussion. As to the explanation mention- duct of the accused upon a transaction which was of ed by the Honourable Gentleman as made by him, the nature of a contempt of Court. that, in fact, was stated to the House before the Ho- Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE thought-a fuller attend. nourable Gentleman gave his notice, and, therefore ante could not be expected on Tuesday, and there, if that explanation were a reason for abandoning the fore opposed the motion for adjournment. notice, it was also a reason for not giving it at all. Mr. NV. SMITH observed, that if he could ccn. He knew nothing of the means of information upon sider either substantial justice or the dignity of the which the Honourable Gentleman grounded his state- House implicated by any postponement, he would ment respecting any particular paragraph in the let- not agree to it ; but as he did not think that was the ter alluded to. Certainly no such information came case, he was inclined to comply with the first request from him ; but from whatever source it was derived, th.tt had been made on the part of 0- . eneral Chive., was immaterial to the main question, for there was ring, who believed his cause would be better defended not a single position in that letter which he was not by this short delay. fully prepared to maintain, as csanforrnable to a due Sir J. NEWPORT differed from the Hon. Ges, regard for the principles of the constitution, and a tleman, that so near the recess they could pot expect perfect respect for the privileges of that House, as a more numerous attendance on Tuesday, itnd the well as a proper solicitude for the ends of public jus-1 only difference would be, that some of the Gentle , rice. Therefore, to whomsoever the letter was imr men now present would then be absent, and soma puted, it was not to be imputed as matter of blame, friends of General Clavering, now absent, would be as there was nothing blameable in it. present. He deprecated farther postponement, as, Mr. WHITBREAD still retained the opinion he during these delays, the justice of the House was had before expressed upon the subject of this Letter, doubted by the public, and it was thought that 4 namely, that it was highly unconstitutional and de- man of rank and family was spared, while one of in rogatory to the privileges of that House. But yet ferior rank was suffering punishment for the same he felt that it was very natural in the Right Honour- offence. able Gentleman to entertain a contrary sentiment, as The SECR.ETARY at WAR spoke shortly for he was stated to be a principal in the authorship of the postponement. that letter. Indeed, if ils information was correct, Mr. DUNDAS thought that some necessary ilia that really was the case ; and, therefore, it was only motion of the design to move for adjournment had the author defending his own production. The been omitted. Right Honourable Gentleman's readiness to main. Mr. WILBERFORCE wished the House to keep tam every position in the objectionable part of the out of sight what might be their ultimate elecisiou, letter was easily to be accounted for ; but still he and simply consider the question now before them. must say, that the Right Honourable Gentleman It was, in his opinion, desirable to come to a deci• did not appear, from such readiness, to have a right sion with the least possible delay. They had already understanding of the principles of the Constitution, postponed too much, so as to give rise to an idea that or the Privileges of that House. it was to be re- they were unwilling to pronounce an opinion upun collected, that the Right Honourable Gentleman had the case. It gave him pain to speak upon the ques• explained twice relative to this letter, and he rather I tion, but without entering into the case, he thouga: thought that it was the second explanation which I they must now decide, unless a better reason for post• formed one of the grounds stated by his Honourable I ponement than any they had yet heard was given. If Friend for abandoning his notice, and which expla- I it was a question of nicety, whether one or two votes nation was made after the notice given. He was I were of consequence, he could not object to delay. surprised at the manner in which the Right Honour- 1 General PHIPPS rose to order. The Hon. Gen : able Gentleman thought proper to allude to his Ho- I tleman had said, he would not go into the merits c: nourable Friend's abandonment of his notice. Such 1 the case, and he was now deciding on them. manner was certainly not discreet, yet he should be Mr. ELLISON, in turn, called the Hon. Gennai sorry if his Honourable Friend were provoked by to order, and defended the line taken by Mr. Wilber that conduct to revive the dicussion. Enough force. had been said about this letter to maik the i Mr. WILBERFORCE then explained, and ccr• general sentiment with regard to the character of I eluded by giving his decided voice for coining to I this letter, and to prevent, he hoped, the recurrence 1 determination immediately, of any similar attack upon the privilegesof that House. I After a few words from Sir M. RIDLEY and Mr Mr, C. WYNNE declared that he did not aban- : WYNNE, the question for the further consideration of don his notice from any change whatever in his opi- : General Clavering's Evidence, was put, and carried nion as to the unconstitutional character of this let- ill the affirmative. ter, but solely upon the grounds he had stated. I The SPEAKER then put the question, that Mr. PONSONBY said, that such was his opinion "It is the opinion of this House, that Gencr:.l of the letter alluded to, that were he in the House Clavering in the said Evidence is guilty of Prevail. when it was read, he would haye opposed the motion cation." for laying it on the Table. At the same time, he saw 1 Sir M. RIDLEY defended General Claverial!: no reason now for renewing the discussion of its me- from the charge of being wilfully guilty of this 0: - rits, as it had been sufficiently observed upon. , fence, with a view to deceive the House. He impu• The motion being put for resuming the debate, re-' ted the contradictioni which appeared in his testi' lative to General Clavering, • tl• 1t . - i snony to his not understanding the questi on s ~,