Star. — London, England, 1816-04-09 00:00:00

• in what the Noble Baron hid t. but ht Mid not suppose that their Lordstips *mils] br convinced by his arguinents to impede the p-ogies, of the Bill _ _ . Lord HOLLAND contended, that the NAL, Earl had not at all obviated his objections to the Bill, or to she terms in which it was coliched. The Treaty was of no advantajte. but on the contrary, sharcltled us, and exposed ns to possible, if not very probable inconvenienoe. He would suppose a case, an extreme one indeed, but yet such as ought t.• hive come into the view of Ministers. He would suppose a new tr;nlption in Franc"; by which, in the fluctuation of po;itical interests and alliances, we might be connected with France and Austria, and in which the son of Napoleon might have an opportu• pity. of sheaving more affection for his lather than the Emperor of Austria appeared at present to entettain for his daughter. He repeated, that he was putting an extreme case, bin he would iikeaise repeat, that it WAS not beyond the proper view , er contemplation of Ministers. Earl BA 11 - 1 RST explained, olyervii:g, that this country had n excluive right to th:t detention or custody of Bonaparte,- who was the COlibrilifil prisoner of all the Allied lowers. The Earl of LAUDERDALE could not help .making a few observations. It really appeared as if it were sopposed that there was something preterna tural about the person who was the ol.ject of the Bili in question. For his own•part, he could never dis• cover why a very safe custody might not have been provided for Bonaparte in many parts of this coun try, and he could entertain no doubt that we had not only prisons but Officers of Police sufficiently strong and vigilant for that purpose. He fully -agreed, however, with his Noble Friend, in thinking that the 13tH was introduced in terms not of sufficient clearness. The first sentence of the preamble .in volved an absurdity, for it set out with stating, that because Bonaparte was then detained in the Island of St. Helena as a prisoner of war, he should continue to be so detained there. The circumstance of his being there was urged as the sole reason for keeping htrn there; The question as to the legality of Bonaparte's being a prisoner of war he would willingly put to the Noble Lord on the Woolsack, but he thought it would become the House to pro. coed with the utmost clearness of the principles of • Legislation in all weir enactments, and therefore lie would recommend the reference of the question to the Judges. The LORD CHANCELLOR could not help romancing,, that there appeared to be mare ingenuity requited to misinterpret than to widerstand the hill. - He sSnuld not, on the present occasion, resort to either of the alleged arguments of convenience • allu.!ed by the Noble Baron,' the year 18u6," or aig t he . pirtialicr .towards Bonaparte ;" but he would defend the propriety of the present Bill, which, in Lis opinion, did by no means require the attention of the Judges : indeed, so far was that from being the case, that if the Twelve Judges were to declare that Bonaparte was or was net a prisoner war, their opinion would in no wise alter his conviction of ;he propriety of the Bill, which had no other object than to enable his Mi . .) , sty to apply the laws rela.ive to prisoners of war to the particular instance of Bona pane, and to authorise the Gown to place him in such a place, and under such restriction, as might be deemed proper. The Earl of LAUDERDALII, Earl BATIIMILST, and Lord HOLLAND, severally explained ; alter which' the Bill was read the second rime. The Earl of SHAFTESBURY (in the absence* of Lcrd Grenville) presented a Petition for leav'e to bring iu a Bill to eu'able the Principal and Society of Magdalen Hall (intended is be taken down for the improvement of Magdalen College.). to remove to the scite of the dissolved College of Hertford, in the University of Oxford, and for other purposes. The Earl of LIVERPOOL, in behalf of the Crown, which is become entitled to the main part of Hertford - 2ollege by escheat, assented to the prayer of the Petition. Leave given.—Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Petitions against the Leather fax were presented from Lud low, Cumbertand, Somerset, Macclesfield, Salop, Rutland, Stal ford, and Southwark. . 'LW Priam* Charhaties Establishment Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed. A Petition from the Freeholders of Milli - let, praying relief foe she Agricultural Interests, was laid on the Lord LASICSiLLYI presented a Petition from the Licensed Vic tuallers ut Knaresboruagb against the increased Licence Duties. Laid on the table., Petitions from the Innkeepers of Shrewsbury and Canterbury' against the hicreased Licence Duty were presented, and laid on the table. The Hun. T. BEAM) presented a petition from Ham:hutch, Emu, against Lithe.. . Mr. HILLY ADDINGT(iN brought up a Return of the Contlis• gest Espeuses in the Secretary of State's Office.—Ordered to be primed. A Petition front the Tanners of Winchelsea was presented against the Leather Tn.—laid on the table. Mr. Foam - 4 presented a Petition front the inhabitants of. Be. wiry against the Insolvent Act.—Ordered to be referred. MALT DUTIES. Mr. HARVEY presented a Petition from . the Maltstets of Norwich, praying for relief from the Mali-duty for the quantity of Malt now on hands. Mr. CALVERT was sox!) , he had not been in the Rause when the Right Honourable Gent:e::..to. (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) propos...i lions respecting the Malt Tax, as he considered them quite inefficient in affordiq relief with regard to the quautity. of Malt now ca hands. The lowering of the price of Porter atone penny a pot was complained . of as not being low enough ; but the redui:tion of the Tax on Malt did not allow it to be lower. The. Por ter of this Metropolis was by a penny a pot better than that of any other part of the kingdom. Sir M. W. RIDLEY said, that the reduction should be the same as the increase was when the war Malt Duty was laid on. He complained of the mo sopoly which the Brewers of the Metropolis held over the public-Muses, as a great public evil. Mr. cALvERT said, that the Porter had bees sixpeace a pot, it was now five pence, and would be i4 shortly four pence, which was as low as the Brewers could afford. • Mr. C.. DARCLAY said that the reduction of the % price of Porter Was as great as could be afforded.— With respect to the monopoly of Brewers over pub. lic•houses, he considered it a great public evil. Mr. CLIWNICN and. Mr. WESTERN complained of the monopoly of Bres.ers over the public-houses of aw blerropolis, as a great public evil. The CHANCE:4IOR of, the EXCHEQUER d'd not think the Hononrabie Gentleman's (Mrs Cal. Yen's) consplßint well founded. He wouhl twin-- mend to_ the Honourable Gentleman to brew imrne• diately, before ..der the pnee cil•Barley rose, or d e price of Porter w 4; reJoced.—(if laugh.) ' The Petition was then teal, and laid on the table. Mr. HARVEY presented a Petition from the Malt sters of Great Yarmouth, praying that tie war Malt Duty should be immediately taken WE—Laid on the table. WATWORD RA ILSOUR. Mr. FOSTER prtsented a Petition from the Mayor and Corporation of Waterford against the bill now pending in Parliament, for the improvement Of the Harbour of Waterford, as injurious to their vebted • rigb ts. Sir JOHN NEWPORT contended, that his own application to this HOuse on the subject of the-Bill WAS public, and that. the Cot poration had appeared satisfied on the subject. He sent a printed copy -.it the Bill tollie Mayor if Waterford before he until,- diced it into the Huuse. He insisted, that the mea- sot e was but justice due to the body of the inhabi tants of Waterford, and no wrong on the Corporation. The Petition was then reAd, and laid on the table. EcAN(MHY AND RETRENCHMENT. Sir FLANCIS BURDETT presented a Petition from theaCounty of Wilts, complaining of the system of bribery and corruption in the Election of Relate sentatives to serve in Parliament—of the enormous load of Taxation—eof the Mardage Establishment for the Princess Charlotte of Wales bearing on the come try, while - the King had so much money hr the Funds which had paid ne Property Tax—ot the large Mili tary Establishment in time of Peace, and praying for economy and retrenchment. Mr. METHUEN said, he should, in a few days, have another Petition to present from the CoMity of Wilts to the Ilouse, which be conceived, would be couched in somewhat different terms. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said, that he had heatd that h was the intention of some Gentlemen el the County of Wilts to h ore another Petition drawn up and presented to the House; but this had been given to him for presentation as ia Petition voted at mil assemblage pnbliely and lawfully convened. Mr. METHUEN was intormed that there were not more than twenty persons at the Meeting where the Petition was 'voted, and that a Gentleman desi rous to speak at the Meeting was not permitted. — (Hear, hear !) The Petition was then laid on the table. FRENCH SUBSIDY. Mr. DOUGLAS moved for a teturn of all sums of money due and paid by France to this country, and of the manner in which it was applied. Lord CASTLERE. - ‘GH said, that, as had been over and over again stated in the House, All the sums received from France had been applied to the public service- Mr. HORNER had not heard how the sum of £Sbo,oooe which was more particularly the object ot his Hon. Friend's motion, had been applied. Liiird CASTLEREAGH most certainly recol lected.having stated how this very sum had been ap. I plied. He had stated that every part of the money r...ceived-hini France had been applied to the public service, with the exception ot a trifling sum for traits reran some of the works of art from Paris tr Rune. There had been 50 millions ot francs paid by France to the Allies, and of this sum I() 'Miami* wete to this country, the application of every franc of which had been before elated in the House. Mr. BENNET had not heard a word of the appli civion of the £BBO,OOO, mentioned by his Honourable Friend. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, he had already stated the sources from which this money would arise, and these were the contributions to be..paid by the French Government, which -might be considered as Droits of the Crown. Mr. BROUGHAM complained, that on a former occasion no notice had been taken of these immense funds called i)roits ; they had not been noticed at the time when his Honourable Friend had made his motion for the production ot different sums ; instead of *which this sum was kept back ; and now, for the first time, the House was informed of the exist ence of such funds. It was highly usconstitutional to keep such things as this from the knowledge of Parliament. This sum of £BBO,OOO was never before mentioned to the House. • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER declared, that he had stated on a former occasion that a sum above £700,000 had been received from France as war conwibutions ; at the same time he stated, that more particular accounts would be laid' before the House at a convenient opportunity, and such opportunity had not as yet arisen. The sum had been appropriated to Army Extracirdinaries. Mr. TIERNEY conceived that a distinct docu ment ought to be laid before the House, to let the House know what the exact sum was. Without that it would be impossible for the House to know whe ther the sum was not eight millions, instead ot . 41'300.000. In this view ot the question, it appeared to be a VW alarming proceeding. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, the contributiops owing from France to this country amounted to ten millions of francs and these were made applicable to the payment o f ? the army in France ; for it never was understood that the share of the French contri bution received by Britain would be sufficient to cover the expense of our Army of Observation is that comer/ ; this arose from the increased expense at tending a British above the armies of other nations; and the calculation 'of the expenses on the part of France was applicable to the Allied nations only. Mr. TIERNEY contended, that he emit:nil bad been wholly deceived iu this• affair, because the un derstanding had been, that die whole expense of our Army of Observation Was to be defrayed by France, whereas the nation was now to be put to the expense , of ammo% in addition to the French contribution for the support of the Army of Observation, and all this expense was to be incurred for the purpose of keeping the Bourbons on the Throne of France. Mr. BARING observed, that the .Princes of Get. many were ready to sell their pretensions to the. French contributions next year for one-halt of the sti • pulated sum, and therefore we were worse off than any other country. Lord CASTLEREAGH admitted,, that the wants and necessities the Get man Princes might induce them to make such a sale. Mi. BROUGHAM said, he did not understand. that the Prince% crwl.l CO any purchasers; in loch estitte seer • Vieir 4:l,4ims held. live motion of Mr. Docia.As was then agreed to. Mr. TIERNtY 'wired tnr the charges on the Civi List up to' Apia, 1 IG. —Ordered. I - Is also mpred (or an :,4conot of the anuatiit of sums re ,ived frdm the hi.ri-ditary reirtniies of the Crown in Scotland since ISI`2 :tiso All accouot of expenses incurred by the BoarJ of Work for 1'.0.5 also an account of the salafes anJ allowances granted in the (Aces of the Secret +ties of Stair for the Home. the Foreign, akid War Departments for two years.— Or del ed. Mr. BANKES mitred for an estimattf of the pro• bible expeme of repai: ing tfe front of the Secretary of State's OfAcr,in Whitehall, and the dangerous state of that building. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, this work 'tat twen undertaken without any authority from the Treasury, in virtue of a power they had of making repairs to the amount of £lOOO. They began by repairing the wall, but it was found ' that the stones were falling down, and it was reeom. mended to repair it in a different wanner, by a casing of bricks. On hearing this, he (abe Chan collor of the Ese.equer) gave orders that nu farther progress should he nntit: until an estimate of the expense, and tt•e correspondence between the Board •of Works and the Treasury, could be laid befote the House. Mr. BANKES did not know that any such corre spondence had taken place. . Mr. TIERNEY thought that one-third part of the office of Secretary at State, together with the whole of the building, ought to be demolished.—The mo tion was agreed to. Mr. BROUGHAM moved for an account of the Names, Sal dies, and Emoluments of the Officers of the Court of Appeal, from the ji:dgment of the Board of Excise, with the number of Appeals that had been made, and also the number of causes tried before the summary Court of Excise.—Ortlered. Mr. BIRCH asked what was intended to be done with the. ground, purchased some years ago, for erecting Barracks, near Liverpool ?• The CHANCELLUR i.t the EXCHEQUER answered, that the ground was to be sold. • Mr. HUSKISSON said, the ground Was to be sold AC SOOII as a purchaser could be found. • Mr. BIRCH said, the interest ahwe of the money expen:led in the purciln,e amounted to 410()( 1 ; and he welled to know, ?f public notice of s.le had ben g iven ? No atiswer being made.. Si: J. Nr.WI'ORT tiesited to know if notic.: of sale had Nei given: • . The CHANCELLW. of the EXCHEQUER coal nit, at this timi.. r.-..w..- ilre question. Mr. TIERNEY. rn..ved 1. e ‘• Copies of all Coires poothnce between Ole Lola* of ..rite Tleastiry and the Lord Chamberlain, vn t:•.-.: sulijcct of the Estinfates, 'directed to he produced by the Lord Chamberlain, telative to the Civil Lit in the said Lord Chamber lain's department. Lind CASTLEREAGH considered it highly l unfair to bring forwnril a partial minion of this kaid, I which only took in a coriAr of the questi.at, be:ore 1 the "whole Estimates cattle regulariy before the IHouse. Vi. hich 'Arnold he duite shaft; atter ilie recess. Mr. TIERNEY said, this was only asking f or a i sep,tia raper te which c.ttue I:n.ler e ke Lot si Chao- I betialit's depa.trnetit, and which it was Ins July to! have produt.ed, as he had been specially directed tinder'' the sign manual; but which he neglected to do. Lord CASTLEREAGH thoug!it the House ought to have the question beloreit generally, previou. to any partial circumstance of- this kind being brought forward. He should oprie the M , ‘11 , 111. Mr. BANKES conceived, the Lord Chamberlain had ri,t complied with the Act of Parliament in not producing the Estimates. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER asked. if the Right Hon. Gentlentin had auy right to take the 1 - luuse by surpeise, in moving for a par ticular correspondence, which Ministers were not pre pared at the moment to prialuce. All the flouve could get by this motion would he to receive a pit of tlu• utformatiun intended to be laid before them in a few days in a complete state. The House divided-ZFor the motion 40—Against it 49.—Majority 9. ORD9ANCII ISTIMATES.• The House haviug revolved itself into a Commit tee of Supply. Mr. It. WARD began by stating, that in regard to the department to -which he belonged, he bored to be abie to prove to the Committee, that there ex isted every possible disposition to observe the strictest , economy. It was the particular desire of tlw Mimes General to reduce the expense as lo'w as poisible con sistently with the safety of the country. From an. average war estimate of N 4,300,000, the expenses of the peace establishment of the Ordnance were now reduced to £1,600,000, and there was to he a far ther reduction, which would make the whole of the peace establishment amount so no more than R 1,439,000. This, however, was not the annual peace establishment, which in a tew years would be much less, because there existed this year certain ar ticles of expense called the expenses of reduction. — When it was considered, Chat, in the year 1783, a: the end of the Aineric Ai-, the Ordnance peace establishment amounted to 81.449,000, the present reduced establishment must strike every body as con sistent with the strictest economy. No doubt there were same debts and extraordinary expenses in 1788 which did not exist at present, Rad which raised the sumacs high at that time. A reduction now took Wales in the military knee of the Ordnance of st4.4.7i(Ait ) . There was also it great reduction in the Civil Depait- I meat, all the war salaries had lee put down, the Secretary and Clerks Jost their wa aalowarices, the Master-General was not allowed the .C4UO a-year which he had received as Military Secretary ; a gteat reduction had taken place at Wo4alch, by the dis charged- labourers, storekeepers, rte. but the most important reduction was in the Military a. partnient. Out Artillery had of late years been brought to the highest state of perfection, in conseqiience of the . science and gallant' y of the Officers. It was, indeed, far beyond any service of a sirnibu kind iii tha world. From this set vice all [arsons had been dischargcd Who could be must easily replaced AI CAW of necessity, and those only retained whose loss could not be easily supplied. The men had keen discharged, but it was thought adviseable to keep the .Otticars. This was the desire of the Masua-Gentral, and die ptinciek ,on which he acted. In the Prbrinenl". tOrvice , , , illery bore s proportion to the lire of tiee.tenth ptoportit:n new, in its redeced state, wauld h.! e eleventh part. There were 11 m-n in tl.e imp 3.1 d only 10,000 Artillsremen, net iiicluslieg d e p pete and Miners. The whole reduction from last sear we t 11e700 men, and the whole reduction Item the yew 1814 was 18,000 men. A plan had been adopted fc g substituting the ()dicers of the Horse Artillery i n th e place of the Officers of Drivers, by which means these m :st valuable teen were reserve., to ae country, The driver officers hid no command in the field, cr military rank, as the youngest Lieutenant in the field belonging to the line might command a Captain el drivers; so it was evident that t!.is w.ts an inconve. fluent service; and now that the artille h l e y ^rficets were to go into the driver cores, it was ys ille:e f ,l ec th u a n t o re lier driver o ffi cers should retire on fell ety. All the tr. ductions, he ,now stated, arneunted to the SUM wi C a 3 s 7, o o: er a ir l e t el og i e n th th e e r. or A dit s iA ica tit : . l s a . r s in Medical De• partment, there was a reduction which produced a sating of £10,009 altogether. Of the Cadets, only twelve were parted with, as it was eeetable to ret.ia as many of these as possible. As ter the Extraerth. naries, they were reduced above f Mao° n a me this year than last. Immense exertions had ken nettle in this Department in the article of stereo, the eh le of which were reduced from de1,091,000, and therefee 'it would not he necessary to take money for stores for a considerable time. The next expense retard to the Works—a subject that bad alway• been viewed with jealousy. The Works did not all include for. tifications, because there were repairs and civil buildings, which came under the denomilituina Works. Here the Honourable Gentleman enente. rated the several items of expense attending th e Works, the whole of whash =fainted to .1 - 21.5,teat,, Fiom these expenses so many reductions had bet e mode, that he should only ask for JeI7CVXX) for the service of the year•. The guns of the brieaaes had been reduced front six to font-, which Callts:Ja nution of expense to toe amount of eel 4,e00. T/.e barrack establishment was also leFte..ed by £ll3OO. There was also a teduct.on of expense iu the Staff. He next came to the expenses of reduc , a.n. There was in the first place sn expense or fi small arittis. Diving war it hecame necessary to give orders to contractors to make as many arms as posyiLle, until they received notice to stop. When they did stop it way nrce.saly to take all the 411119 they hid on hand, and alto to prevent them from suffering a lcus, which must fuliow from stop ping their work; therefore Government' took away trosu them to the amount of XlOO,OOO for thtee years. There was another expentx of reklocim amounting to Elth),l6o. 'lle 1,2,111c:i0n of e 7 .1 officers to half pay, WAS another expeose of £(5000, ' After various other statements, the kinnourahle Gcn. tieman moved his first Resolution, to grant 4959,220 f:,r Ore charge of the Office of Ordnance, for Laud Set vice for the year 1816. Mr. CALCRA FT admitted the snbj-ct was a dry one, and he en;etc:+ upon k with the less pleasure„as he And his friends hal keen defeated in tht ir maul a. --- jecr, the reduction of the military establishment.— The Hon. Gentleman contended, in looking at the supplementary estimates just tle , canted upon, co proof of actu ,1 economy Lad taken place ; 14, in tact, it was not a peace estimate 'Pie. Civil Esc:L. hiishment in Pall Mall was now £45,0.10 ; La 1796, it the Hoe.Nernbtr had looked back, he would have found it only 5e17,000. He valid not, tlitNl tre, say, that a machine which WAS worked in 1795 at Sa low a rate, was now in a train of reduction, v!ith as increased charge of something beyond 4'26(00 ; nor could he see the material reduction in Woo! or •in the Barrack Department. As to the milit4 amps, if it was the wish of Government that anal , . tart' establishment should be kept up to . ..he extent it now is, then, consequently, a propte Urinate artillery should be kept up. The amount of the present ar tillery force was 13 / 60i) ; in 1792 that amount w.:5 miry 37(10; so that the amount, was now incieased tour-fold. But, indeed, the whole of the military ex penditure was such as, it persisted in, must inevitably weigh down the country. In respect to the drivers, (admitting the propriety of keeping up the number for the service of the Duke c,f We:vngton) there could be no necessity for maintaining 1100 in Great Britain alone. With respect to the reductions 13 irelAlld, it the Hon. Gentleman would go to unit country, he would see that a considerable reduction 'night take place in those current set vices and cont:n gencies without danv:er to the state, rrticulaily in that part of the sister kingdom called Spike lsiAndi. The T.l(,n. Gentleman contended, that the labours of die Socretary to the Blard were fully equal to that of tae S.:cretary to-the Master General ; the latter has tau ' thousand pounds a year, and the former, who has to jured his health in the service, ouly /11.;00. He could not see any just ground for this distinction. Upon the whole, he did nut think a sufficient reduc tion had ' taken place. Colonel PALMER observed, that there was 1,300,000' stand of arms in the Tower, t here lere tie ' thought a sum of £lOO,OO O w ould Rot be required ' for the supply of small arms. ' Mr. BENNET noticed, that a depot for arms had been established at Shrewsbury, but it had not beat used. This he thought a useless waste et the puba money. Mr. W. POLE said. this depot was built senile he was in the Ordnance Office ; and the necessity vOts e 1 for arming the Volunteers ; depots were cskiolith' ed in different parts of the kingdom with thait Ground was purchased accordingly, aktd were erected.. In Shrewsbury tits gtoun ona d taken srva one acre, and the expense Of the Luilzling was teSOO ; the whole of the expense f Officers, Sce , seas about RSOUO. The grangeme,,ts• were inadf upon mature consideration fin. the reception, in ( 14 ' 1 reot parts of the kingdom, of 600,000 stand of arun, io order to prestrve them in case of necessity, b. 4• these depots could r.ot be used during the war.—.Tli° believed that it was now intended they shtoild the Local Militia arms. Mr. BENNE'L observed , t hat the arms of t'lt' Local Militia of Shrewsbury were lodged to otet places in the town, and rent was paid for the store , bruises to keep the arms in, which he vsnceiv4 migh have been placed in better security in the depot., Mr. TRENIAYNE conbisisred, the lines o! Pi, mouth useless. Mr. DOUGLAS thought, this! many of 'be ings, and particularly the Monello towers, warts olev