Star. — London, England, 1816-06-07 00:00:00

leis#n a lesson - from a Republic, and should at least not fix - for. ever upon an arbitrary end despotic go vernment as a sui!jeci. of imitation. In coaclusion lie ' Would observe, that the present bill was not. drawn up on the conditions of a fair bargain with the public. *The bargain inede between the Crown and the coun try it the beginning of the present reieei, had Leen feequently violated, and all its advantages had gone to th e sovereign-without any to the public. It had been violated not oily twice or. thrice, but 'evert or eight times ; and )et wee were now called upon to supply a fixed income to the civil list, and at the same time to leave it all its fluctuating revenues from the acquirement anal asession of which so many dimes might sprees:re' The Earl of HA RROWBY entered into several expkinit ions on points advanced in the speech of his Noble rriend (Lord Liverpool), and contended sigeinst the construction put upon them by the last speataT. He maintained, that if the Crown had not entered into the agreement with the public by which it surrendered its hereditary - revenues, it would have in the course of this reign been a gainer to the amount of six mil.ions money. The civil list, so ler as that part of it that went to support the personal splendour, or to supply the personal comforts of the Sovereign, was concerned, had increased very little over the seven years ending 1811. The only addition to its expenditure last year arose from the changes in our . , foreign relations, by which a greater number ,it di plomatic agents was required to be, supported—a happy circumstance, and a source of charge which be hoped would long continue. The Noble Lord ? (Holland) had spoken efehe dicks of the Admiralty. He (Lord Herrowby) would not enter into the ori in of the tight of the Crown to the dispo sal o f this kind of revenue, the control - that Parliament might exercise over it, or the other questions connected with the subject; but if he were to examine the ten dency of this right by the light of experience, he would say that he saw no reason for the apprehension entertained by the Noble Lord who spoke last. The evil he dreaded was no leis than that the Sovereign might engage in unjust wars for the purpose of fil ling the civil list exchequer by droits. The fear was chimerical. The crown could not act in such itnpor cant affairs us war or peace except through the rae dim of resp 'merle advisers, and would any Minis ter entru,!ed with an office in the government of the country b.: so uie.vise, so inconsiderate, or so profli. gate, as to plunge the nation into the expenses and dangers of an impolitic and unjust war for the sake of a. little paltry gain to the IL lel revenue ? in point of fart this had never been the case, and these reve nues had been as well managed as any other. Nearly three utilise is of the droits of the Crown had within the course of a few years !:een contributed by the Crown v. the public service. He would be unwilling to deprive the Crown of the power of making such grants to tee peeple, and of thus tOrcing it to have no other transactions with the public, except when it apPled to Parham tat to pay hs debts, or remove its embarrassments. He would consider it as a subject of grave consideration to deprive the Crown of a pri vilege that had existed in it for so many ages, ani that it contributed as much to the public benefit as to C:£ personal dignity of the Monrech. Lord HOLLAND, in explanation, stated, that be could not at present compute the full amount of the terc.litery revenue of tiie Clown ; but he thought fist f would not have been so productive as was held out by Ministers. It was well known what the post office, as regulated by Parliament, produce d; but its revenues could not be se easily c acuLted if they had remained in the hands of the Sullen ign. In point of fact, he would repeat that, all things considered, the expenditure of the civil list bad tripled the sem con templated as sufficient at the commencement of the present reign. The droits of the Admiralty were enormous, fr o m the practice followed of late of making ad declaration of war till a blow was struck. Lord LIVERPOOL explained. The droits of the Admiralty were in existence in 1760, when the here ditary revenues ware tranferred to the public, and though they must have been in contemplation of Par. liament, no regulation was made concerning them. This afforded an evidence of what the legislature thought concerning the right of the Crown to their disposal. We were then in the middle of an impor tant and expensive war, and the droits in the hands of the Ci own at the time were great, so that they could not have escaped notice in any arrangement with regard to the revenue of the Crown. As an ad ditional proof that the Parliament of that time did not wish to interfere with them, or to legislate on the • subject, it rhight be mentioned, that when a sum was voted out of them for the public service, it was after wards revoted for the use of the Crown. The Noble Lord had re:erred to the Government of America as an example of economy in its civil expenditure. He did not know on what evidence the Noble Lord re lied, but he might mention as a fact that perhaps would excite surprise, that the expenses for defraying the civil government of the United States was reariy equal to our own civil list expenditure. He had heard this from a person on whose veracity and means of information he could depend, and had taken a me morandbm of it at the time. Of course in this esti mate was includedahe charge of the provincial as well the general governments. The sum was stated at about £700,000 or se:-.00,000 annually. Earl GROSVENOR :poke against the appoint ment of the new officer of audit with a salary of £idUo a year. The Bill was then read a second time, and com mitted for Monday.—The House adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. VI. I GRAHAM presented a Petition from Mary-la-bonne, signed by 1,600 persons, composed of the Vestry and Proprietors of against the new Street Bill. Petitions from pet-suns in the Leather Trade were presented front several places :n the country. Au Address was voted, on the motion of Sir J. C. Hi PPISLEY, fa . Papers respecting the situation of Roman Catholics in foreign countries. A Petition from some pace In Lincolnshire was,received re specting the importation of foreign tarn. Mr. MM-L 1 1-1 plesented Petitions against the nes/ Street and Sewer Bill. from St. Anne's and St. James's Parishes. A Bill for regulating the Duties and Ittwards of Coroners was brought in, reaa a lire: time, and ordered to be read a second time to:morrow. 'be Bridge Amendm en t Bill` f Suaud was read a third time. petitions were received from Victuallers of Plyntouth, from Tanners at Carlisle, and from Distillers at Fa:kirk. - A Report respecting Fees and Salaries of Law Courts in Eng bed, Scotland, and Ireiand, was received. %lc Anoxic= Couvendon wt. brought tip ivy Mr. F. Ro• ate sots read a first titer, sad okra to be read a second ti nt to-mor row. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR, is adfrAing to the Metropolis Paving Bill, said that nothing new was contemplated in it, of which the obj ct was to remedy the evils eamplained of within the bills of mortality, bet not to medals with turnpike toads. Ihe inten tion W 44 to give additional powers, to prevent the evils affectiag the pavements Wm the operation of the Water -works and Gas. light Companies, to give the Parishes the meant of augmenting funos, to prevent public inconveniences, and to make it evident to all, who are elie,eurveyors or other officers. Ile moved the wend reading of the Bib, which was coned, and ordered to be commtned to-morrow. Mr. CALCRVIET presented a Petition from the Electors of Rochester respecting the acceptance of the place of Tr easurer of , Greenwich Hospital by one of their Representatives, Sir T. B. Thompsit. 'I hey considered it as an office of profit under the Crown which rendered their Member's seat vo i d , and the y prayed for a new writ for that City. Mr. Calcraft moved that the Petition should lie on the table, intending to move the consi deration of it on Wednesday. Lord CASTLEREAGH said be bad 110 objection to its lying on the table. Mr. CA I.CRAFE observed, that the Petitioners now prayed for a decision which had been, on a former occasion, avoided by the previous question. Mr. TIERNEY remarked, that the Noble Lord seemed as yet to have voted in the dark. The question as to the nature of the appointment was of some importance; but the House had passed it by. Was this office to be considered merely as a erofessional, military, or naval apj ointment ? The Honourable Member al hled to sat hi the Rouse without any decision having been made on his particular case: '!'here should he idisiinct motion to de tide the question. It was a mater of great importance to ascer tain what were the grounds on which seats were vacated. Mr. CALCR AFT said he wished on Wednesday to bring the Subject to.the question of aye or no. Petitieet was ordered to lie on the table. In comet:pence of a remark from Mr. Tar II tr,_ Mr. CALCR AFE gave notice, that on Wednesday he would move for a new writ fur Rochester, in consequence of the accep tance or the Once now held by Sir T. B. Thompson. Mr. PALMER • , 1 to be Wormed by the Noble Lord upon the Bench below, whether (.overonsent were in possession of any authentic el:noose ins on the subject of an awful event stated to have happened in the Wend Barbadoes, in which, it was reported, the lives of a great number of persons were lust, and property atoms) ed to a great extent ? lord CAS I'I.b.REACIi answered, that Government had not yet received the details of' the melancholy event alluded to. Mr. PALMER race notice, that on Thursday, the Itith, he should submit to the cousidetation of the House a moduli on the subject of that event. General THORN I'ON moved for a select Committee to en quire into the fahrica•lon and circulation t.t forged Bank-notes. Mr. MANNING could see no reason why the Dank ehoeld riy forged notes. How would any proposition of that nature he considered by any conunercial house ? To make the Bank gay these note% would be encouraging forgery. The Bank did all they could to prefect the public, and there appeared no Parlia mentary ground for the motion. General THORNTON hoped some additional eitcautiobs would be adopted, and that impruvements would take place in the Bank-notes.---The Motion was instilled. Mr. BENNET presented two Petitions from Lud low—one against the Insolvent Act, and the other against great Military Establishments. THE MAURITIUS. Mr. EROUGHAM presented a Petition fiom a person sent trout the Isle of France by the Governor to this country, and since his arrival desired or per mined to return. His name was Piton or Perron.— , He complained of ill usage and long confinement. Mr. Brougham said he had no particular knowledge of him, and he believed he might have suppressed' some particulars in his representation as to the con ' duct of the Gavel uor ; yet the matter appeared to requ:re some explanation. He wished to learn from the Noble Lod, what circumstances occurred which justified the sending away persons from the Island without bringing titin to trial ? lie had heard that some accusations had been made against persons for proceedings against the enforcement of the measures adopted to destroy the Slave Trade. The'Petition was brought up and read. Mr. GOL'LBURN observed, that a long period elapsed without any official corresitesdmce trim the Isle of Fiance. The iacorniatbn that had been re ceived prir,cipaily related to other circumstances.— The regulations established by Government in the Isle of *rance were chiefly in consequence if a dis position there to carry can and encourage the Slave Trade, which was owing to its having been a French Island. A Frenchman came there, and erdeavonred to excite an opposition to the British Government.-- It appeared that, respecting M. Piron or Perron, the Governor took legal advice, and then the nght it best to rend two individuals on board the King's ships, and send them here. Government had not received all the details. The attempt et insurrection was quelled, and the chief leader had fled to Madagascar. M. Pe;ron had wished to be put in a situation to take his trial. Captain Mackay had shewn that his treat ment on board ship was not what it was represented to have been. Mr. BARING objected to the mode pursued with respect to this individual. When he arrived here, it appeared that there was no ground of charge to esta blish any legal process against him, and he was allowed to sail back again. This mode could answer no good purpose whatever. These conquered Colo nies were ir a peculiar situation since our acquisition of them. So in Trinidad, Ceylon, and the lonian Isles, he knew of no regular Government or Consti tution ; nothing appearing but the will of the Go vernors. That should not be the case ; and he hoped the House would take up the subject early next Ses. sion. He would not say what sort of legislation might be the best; but on former occasions we had acted differently. The case of this individual was a strong one. He might bring his action against the Governor, who seemed to have stated no reason for his condoct but his own fiat. It was necessary that there should be sorhe sort of government or constitu tion established. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY.—It appeared most unjust that a British subject, as this man was since we had the island, should be seat herein this manner, to a ccuntry where he-had no interests, and with whose language and-laws he was unacquainted, be. cause lie had been connected with some illegal pro ceedings. Were there, then, no laws in the Island of France ? He was sent, not to the Cape of Good Hope, but to England ; and when here, there was no sufficient charge against him. The Secretary of State mere.y answered his memorial by telling him he might go back. Whatever examinations might have been made at the island, no serious charge ap. peared to have been made out against him. Was he active in the insurrection ? It the House did not inquire into this business, they would thew them selves indifferent to individind protection and perso. nal liberty. A man might thus be torn from his in terest and his family, and sent here without the means of subsistence, except what he derived from charity. He might certainly, indeed, bring his ac tion. Bat this seemed a very grave case. However desirable it was to suppress the Slave Trade, yet 'there appeared nothing tp justify so violist a Fo ci-. GOULBURN explained. Mr. PONSONBY said, that if this person was Concerned in measures of insurrection, he should have been tried at the place. Mr. BROUGHAM said, that whatever might hare bean the offences of the individual, he put them nut of the question ; for he ought, if chargeable, to have been tried on the spot, and not have been pu nished in this way, by a close confinement of 159 days. which was a greater punishment than was in flicted hoe for various offences. He certainly highly disapproved of the conduct of the Whites at the Mauritius against the Black population : but, how ever he might be disposed to stigmatize their con- Iduct, the Governor ought to chew strong reasons for ltdopting a violent and illegal proceeding. He wished to know, whether the situation of these ac quired Colonies was such, that individuals might be sent away to england, confined in vessels, and then sent back because there were no sufficient charges against them ? Some further observations passed between Mr. Gomnontr, Mr. BROUGHAM. and Sir S. ROMILLY. Mr. ABERCROMBY thought the case of consi derable importance. Had the state of the Colony been such as to justify an illegal measure, and not to act according to law in the Colony ?. Mr. BRAND thought that no SAtidactory reasons had been furnished.. Some inquiry should he mule, to give the Governor an opportunity of justifying himself. Mr. COULBURN adverted to the great diStance of the Island. After a few words from Mr. PONSONBY and Mr. Ilimmrs, the Petition was ordered to lie on the table. Sir S. ROM I LLY gave notice of a motion for the dispatches of the Governor of the Mauritius on this subject. Accounts of persons confined in the Bedford House of Correction for the last three years were ordered. Sir J. NEWPORT suggested, that the Irish Law Courts' Reports should be presented early next Ses sion ; in which Mr. L. FOSTZR concurred. Lord G. CAVENDISH presented a Petition from Framework-knitters at Derby. General FERGUSSON adverted to the mode of collecting the . Property Taz in Scotland, and hoped proper reductions would be allowed. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained. Mr. G RENFELL intimated his intention to move for certain Papers relative to the affairs of the Bank, and in particular respecting the arrangement as to stamps. Mr. BROUGHAM asked when the Papers re. specting the seizure of the Ann ordnance transport would be produced Mr. LUSH INGTON said they had been ordered two or three weeks ago. The Report of the Saving Banks Bill was ordered for to morrow. IRISH GRAND JURY Mr. COOPER, alter a few preliminary observa tions, in the course of which he commented upon the report which a Committee had drawn up on this subject, moved for leave to bring in a Bill to conso lidate, amend, and reduce into one, all die Acts re lative to ttie mode of raising money by Grand Jury Presentments in Ireland. He stated it to be his in tendon not to press the Bill during the present Session. A long conversation ensued, in the course of which Sir J. NEWPORT, Mr. PONSONEY, Mr. AREtteatomar, and Sir H. PARNELL, urged the necessity of a Bill, even in the present Session, which should place the Tax levied by these Assessments under proper controul. Nothing could be more beneficial to the people of Ireland. On these grounds Sir H. PARNELL ny.ved, that the words " consolidating," and " re ducing into one," be left out of the motion, fur the purpoie of leaving only the word 14 amending." Mr. VESEY FITZGERALD coincided as to the utility of some immediate measure, but was un willing to take the subject out of the hands of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Cooper). Mr. PEEL proposed that two Bills should be brought in, the one for consolidating, Sec. and the other for amending,. so as to give the power of im mediate controul. The latter Bill might pass this Session, and the former be postponed to the next. The SPEAKER submitted, that in point of form two Bills could not concurrently pass through the House, both professing the same objects, though to a greater extent in the one than the other : besides, the Consolidating Act could not include the one that was contemporaneous with it. 7 After some further conversation in which Sir G. HILL and Mr. BARNARD took a part, Sir H. Parnell's amendment was carried, and Mr. Vesey Fitzgerald consented to bring in a Bill with the tide thus altered. Lord MILTON presented a Petition front cot tain cloth-workers in Yorkshire, complaining of the 11.-..rd ships under which they laboured from the introduc tion of machinery, and praying for the removal of the laws preventing their emigration. The Noble Lord remarked, that he was not aware of the existence of any such laws. The Petition was read, and ordered to lie on the table. The Irish Bank Restriction Bill, and the Porter Colouring Bill, were• read a third time, and passed. CATHOLIC CLAIMS. Sir HENRY PARNELL said, that having al ready presented Petitions from large bodies of the Ca tholics of Ireland, he could not suffer the Session to close without stating the object of these Petitions.— They exptessed the wishes of nine tenths of the Ca tholics of Ireland, whom he estimated as little short of between lour and five millions of our fellow-sub jects, and therefore were deeply entitled to the atten tion of Parliament. The great grievance of which they complained was that of exclusion from the Con stitution, and they prayed to be admitted to the en joyment of the Constitution. He did not. wish, on the present occasion, to renew the discussion on this subject which had so recently taken place ; that, he believed, would be of no benefit to the Petitioners : but he wished to take that opportunity of giving no tice, that early in the next Session he should can the attention of the House to these Petitions—that he should attend in his place in the first week of the Session, and move for a Call of the House for their being taken into consideration. He must, however, express his conviction, that without complying with the just claims of the-Catholics, it was impossible to put an end to the disorders which prevailed in behind. !Though the system of - nsilitary coercion sA. ' down present disturbances, it would not tr,7 4 . 1 4, the minds of the pe o pl e . H e would take t bi;, 4 :4 • tunity of calling upon the Noble L, rd eprio et '' dare what were the views of rig M,l;enrs Ggtr meat on the subject. On looking track to ti e spondence which took plJce between t:ie verpool and the Marquis Wellesley, in 1812, 1 that the Noble Earl stated various obstac.% to entertaining of the Catholic Claims; an d, altp. '• others, the then temrer and conduct o' , th _ themselves, tog e th er w i t h t h e st.:te 'and in which Europe was then placer!. Mr. PEEL rose to order. lie thougli: tin e c , Baronet had professed his intentino of merely tm;: : notice of a future motion ; instcld of wilichiLe„.:, now entering upon the diw.tis4inn whicS iu Ilau dared it his intention t o a 4.. rcid. • Sir H. PARNELL said it was his intrse re conclude with moving, that the Cathn l ll ef l i , 7 , l l' t, from cc-rtain disabilities of el 511b0;(5114te CIAS , . _ see the Right Honoureble Gete!emen chnse• to mir e him, be was slit eking of the °tirades rase s 1,,.:; Liverpool stated as opposed to rhe accede,. Catholic CI tint.. Cne of these nbsteclse—ih.:t se e .: from the temper red conduct ot the C ate s lie s selves—he conceived tit Lc ;low renewed H e e l leave to call the atsertion of the hi.erse to ti e change which had t ken plsce in the conduit t• - •:• ', Catholics. 'there had been niseel, g ' conduct which called fcr an; impti tetions neon besides, it should be etc ,1,4 t the : j t.,, c : had recently proposed to the I-: mss 4 plan el their Bishops which would rc:nove a ll t h at int, ' rence of foreign influence of which so mud had been expressed. The other obstacle assizr e. Lord Liverpool was the circemsta j o ti e s e i s ity ; Europe was placed. These, however, pee. tally changed ;— th ey could no knives ee shadow of an argument ; and, th erefrreinit:ndtwi desirable to know from Ministers, ch at tiee cumstances had arisen that would en in still refusing to accede to these chem. ?—(1/0e.) If ever there was a moment which called upon ee. • nisters to declare themselves, it was when the kite Hcnourable Gentleman the Secretary drawn such a melanclely picture of the state of tkse country. He was afraid that the Catholics generous ' after having been so often defeated on the main ne e of their claims, were now almust reduced to desser t and he was induced now to propose, th.tt there snouiS I be granted to them certain minor conceseens, wee it seemed now to be ad:Mae -1 . on all sides !tight be granted with perfect safety to the Constitetioa in Church and State. From the conversetions he hid held with various Catholics, he was convinced that these concessions would be most Brat belly reccirci Here he would take the liberty o advertingeo what Mr. Speaker had said on a furrier occasion, wits a Bill for relieving the Catholics was under midden- • tion. In.that speech the Right Honoprable Gentle. man, while he refused conceding to them aeygetat political power, professed his willingness es iayopee to them the honourable rewards of public servics, and to make their religious liberty complete Attend. ing then, to this distinction, he should propose cer. • tam resolutions, the object of the first of wheel v ettie be to lay open certain offices to the CP those of Teller and Cashier of the Exchequer, e:ete jeant at Law e Attorney and Solicitor-General, that of General on the Staff, the office of Sheriffs, &c.; also empowering them to hold effices in Corperatues. This revolution would lay open to tlee Cade lies tLe various offices in the law, the public revenue, tee army and navy, with a few exceptions. In illustration d the hardships under which they now laboured, he beg ged to state the case of a Catholic who entered the navy so long ago as the year 17b&, who had teiestelly distinguished himself, and had been in censecesece nominated to the rank of .Commander. Ses e ties ago this person bed been called upon to take cut commission, but the previous oaths necessary :e et taken were repugnant to his faith,• and he had lc.t both his reek and halt pay. It deserved also :o Le stated that this person had lost four blethers in tit Mejesty% service. The nest resolution which he sheeld take the liberty of submitting to the House was, ilea Roman Catholics might vote for the elections of Members of Perliaments while t being subject hi other oaths than ulnae taken be Proteetatan next resolution was, t h at Roma ri'Cat holies shush, re be subject to any laws touching the disposal of pus petty, except those to which Protestants were beak In submitting this rcsulutien, bebegged to nsentinii a case which, he hoped, would shew ir•ceakity ut Altering the law on this point. A Mr. *Evert ' 1 surgeon in Dublin, fu: chased land, and made a *al,' by which he deviied it to his elder brother; but sot having taken the qualifying oaths which the Paw re quired, the younger brother eleected to the devise, and took possession. Tire real select of his ho my tuns thtis excluded, and the law could nut a f, rd /Ince .r resolution was, diet Roman Catholics might be ciebled to grant land for charitable donations. He contended, teat in a country purely Catholic, it was a great and serious injury to pi cvent perms from making provision for these particular objects, and more especially where it eteret•rasd the educeien of the poor. Tee next Resolution was, that it was expedient to make provi•ion Ice the putiLhment of any person reho should i d ...sturb the firm of worship that prevailed in Catholic Cilapelse or assault any Minister in the exercise of his Enctiees. Resolution would Le to prevent Military er Nasal Officers from compelling the men under their ente mand to attend any place of divine wership weft where the Cetholic Religion was exercised. Arid here again he must beg leave to refer to the lags authority of the Chair, that the Roman Catliel:as were entitled to the privileges which this Reseleven ditmazded. He must likewise add, that if this Rev'- lution should be :Treed to, another ()vitt to be adopted, in weer to put the English] Catholics epee the same footing as the Irish. In conclutioe, he would merely state, that the Roman Catholics of Ire land would be extremely grateful for so much bet granted gr manteedas;uraeis yih i.dleici h celtp: had rsuad t e aken the liberty dtliattheado o lop t e tt the . commending to the House would contribute in a re/ eminent degree to pacify the initiation which so tee fortunately prevailed in that country. Ii sit down, therefore, with proposing, as the first leesele non, that it. w as expedient to make provision her st! eunishment of any pet son who should ti . iorm of worship that prevailed in Roman Cat -cite Chapels, or assault any Minister of that relig:ou )11