Star. — London, England, 1816-06-25 00:00:00

. '4 'AR, FENTdR r PR OCEh UINGS. a .. R&M! OF Li )ii DS; JUNE 24. Ipkei Rolmp.eew«J• d In Aprbralg. The Royal Assent. was no; hed by Commlesion to the Teich Paper-Bill, the Refitted Storer Bill. the Rape Se. d and Cie Seed Sip. and the 40kiess Nea Trade Bill. Me Ctsmirtue , estrs were the Lotto CllANciLioe, the Earl of SreiTaset: ay, and Lord Viscount Niguel Lt. a •On the Pettion of Persons concerned in the Whale Fisheries against the eeetereereadieg of the Cu Light Bill, Mr 11/Masse* and Mr. Laceson appeared as Counsel for the Petitioners, arid Mr. Weal' tu and Mr. Poutoce for the Bel. Mr HAIIILISON was heard on bet:al ot Petitioners, and two witnesses were ' called to prove. thr Sm -01 . ta..ee of -the WI ale Fisheries,_ m 4 the trade in 0:1, that it would be ruined by tl•e general adoption of Gas, and materially ',lured by the passing of the present Mr. Wellies, for the BA, argued that it liras merely a comp.. Winn between the dealers in Oil and the dealers le Gat. Mr. Hee:tome, on the other side, e‘ii tended that if th.s Bill were to pee-, se would cestroy couipetitiim, by the privileges and the le. • cr. ase of capital which it gave to the Gas Compai.y. 0 , the (iteration fee the second reading of the Bid, e Earl of LAUDEKDM E declined opposing it in that • r::>'r, kit stated that !here a ere several provision in the Bill to • wh el' he should object 'n the Comminee. 'I lie Eta of HARROW BY also declined opposing the second readleg 10 the Bill, he remerkeei that the observation of the I.e. reed Counsel for the Petitioners, that this Bell, it passed, would destroy compete inn, was loglily deserving the cmisidera• Hon of the House, particularly when the trade that night be • !Lined by it was one of great importance, and intimately con nected with the ben Interests of the come ry. be Bill was then read a stupid time, and committed for Wesinesday. All the Lards who have be en present thi. Session . to be Men.hers of the Committee, and to have power to ehmae • tot it oWn Chat. matt. The Earl of LAUDERDALE presented Petitions &safest the prOrisions of the B 11, trona persons concerned in the Whale .rieherle s, and others which were ordered to be referred to the Committee, and the Petitioners to be heard by Counsel • Ihe Holyhead Harhour Bal, the surrogates Bill, and the Raps Crake B U, were read a chit d time and pa-led. On tee areion of be _LH of *Amaascic, the Irish Landlords . • Bile Was pat a third time. Earl S I ANHOPE morel .he same amendment which had been movid by Earl Fitzwilliam in the Cs matinee. After some conversation, it was negatived, and the Bill peewee - On the Reece tof the Habeas Corpus 811, the Marquis of LANSOUM.I moved amendments for the purptee of leaving out all that related to the Lora Chancellor in the Bill, which were ▪ agretoete, and the Dill pr.iered to be read a S.l time to morrow. Lord HOLLAND gave .outice of his intention to present a Bill nest S. salon, for the purpose of amending the Law relating to wrongous imprisonment in Scotland. Lord HOLLAND gave notice ot a motion for'llmrsday, for agreeis•g to a similar Address respecting the late evente at liars badees, as had been agreed to is the lioese of Commons. 1111s11 GRANU -71:1:12S. The Earl of SHAF I'ESDURY. moved the third reading or the Irish Grand Jury Indictment Bill. . The kArl of DONOUGHMORE objetted to the alteration which would thus be made in the practice . of law, in Ireland, regarding - Grand Juries, and oh— served that this was only a small part of a system in contemplation, the whole of which ought to be before them previous to 'her deciding' upon this particular • measure. He bad no objection to Grand Juries not being allowed to find a Bill ot. Indictment without ptr.le evidence, but this Bill went further, and pro., hib;ted them floor having before them the depositions, without the special permission of the Court. He could not see how the Judges-were to have the means of ascertaining what depositions it would be proper to send to a Grand Jury,, or how the latter could apply for them, without having had an oppor \unity of seeing them.. He understood a:so, that the Ridges of Itelanti had been consulted upon the subject, and h:td objected to this Bill, which was an additional reason for opposing a measure which, under present circumstances, would throw great impediments in the way of the public business at the Assizes, as the • presentments would still remain to be gone through as hitherto, until the proposed new system could be carried into effect. Wilt regard to the Sheriffs, he was satisfied that no greater good could be effected in Ireland, than by assimilating the appointment of these Officers to the practice in England at present, that office was the subject of the Crown patronage, and however meritorious the Sheriffs might be, the mode of their appointment, as connected with elec. ' tioneering interests, excited great dissatisfaction., His Lordship concluded with moving an amendment, for the purpose of giving a larger otscretion to the Court to communicate the depositions in any case to the Grand Jury. • This amendment was agreed to. His Lordship still thought that the Bill might not to be pressed during the present Session,... The Earl of LIVERPOOL thought, that the. amendment had obviated all objection •so With regard to the power of the Court to comrnuni. cote the depositions to the Grand Jury, and that it would be highly beneficial to assimilate the practice . in Ireland, as far as possible, to that in this Country. With respect to the appointment of Sheriffs, he thought that no patronage of the Crown ought to stand in the way ot resorting to a riti)de of appr.int. mem, 2S in this Country, which would give general satisfaction. The Bill was then read a third Cane and passed. JI ItCSL. LAN IES. The American Passengers Bill, 'Me Irish Insolvent Debtors Blll,.tbe Inland Coals Bill, and the Bristol Small Debts Bill, were brought up from the House of Commons by Mr. BlLOGetti, Sir i I. 011AMASI, Serjeant ON SLOW, and o th ers. Sir W. Abdtee Di vorce Bill wate also brought up :Ind agreed to. The former bills were all read a first time.. Earl STANHOPE presented a Petition from Mrs. Dyoct, coca.' planing that she had not received the fieet quarter's inoney which led been ordered to her on her divorce from General Dyott.e-• Ordered to lie on the 1 able. general Ilyott's'Divorce 818 went through a Committee. Eas DONOUGHfiIORE observed, that it was• his intention to halm submitted some oonsideratious to their 3.,ord.sips on the se:eject of the Roman Catholics, but observing the thin state of the Home be should defer them till to-morrow. 'lle invalid reading of the Irish Consolidation Bill was post pored tin to-ntorrow. The Bank Advance Bill, the Irish Public Debt Bill, the Here ford Oiliest Bill, the Creek Entries Bill, the Demerara 'I Md. Bill, the Irish Customs Regulation Bill, the Mint Maehloery Exportation Bill, and the Militia Pay 8.11, wets atrieraily com mitted and reported.—Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The SPEAKER acquainted the House that the Royal Assent had been that day given by Commission in the House of Lords to sevetsi Public and Private Bills. (See Lords). The Hertford College lisU sae brought in and seals Ilitikesne.: To be read a second time to-morrow' Tex Oil and Blubber Bill went sitrouglra Consteltteee—Repoet to be received to morrow. 1 ht. third reaeling of the Small Coals Bill havitileiseen Moved, Mr. DAVIES GU)UY took an oppotzunity of calling the at. teetlon of GoveruMent to the Invention of Sir Humpbry Davy for pteservieg the Eyes of persons engaged tb working mines, and euggesune the propriety of conferring on him a suitable rewar.l. Mr. UOI.RiE SUM N ER moved that the Report of the Core. n. r+' tAkc.t aro briber consideration. Mr. ST Wilt WOK conceived this Bill was nor gene . roily wished for by the Conatr , f. In many parts the cowards of ',;(xoners were atre.ady suirictol.dy aati , lo. In the County with ' • wbkh be was more Innoedtway easneeted tide PPI would bevel tbe etfrct.ot adding 212,at1u et year to time Comity P . m'i r moved, theater', that a Clause be added to the esti giviog cretlonary power to the Mtwara's of Countks to authurige the increased sibilance m not. • Mr. H. agth2NER opposne l the amerieimene. rbe uglier, was cleared tee a dal ion, but the Clause was witICIANO. A division took place on another Clause proposed by Mr. S. WOILTI gr. for the Chaser 211—Assiast It, 53—Majority against the OM** 2 5 * A wand division took plate on the motion for engrossing the Bill—Aye', 4s—Noes, 13—Majority In favour of engrossing, 25. hr wag then ordered to be awaited, and to be read a third dme to morrow. SAVIJIO BANKS. Mr. ROSE moved that the Report of the Saving Banks Bill he taken into farther consideration. Mr. ROSE thereafter moved that a Clause should be added to the Bill far giving certain powers to Jus tices with respect to the disposal of money placed in these Banki by p. rsone who miqht afterwards fiud it necessary to apply for parish relief. Mr. CA LCRA FT said the Clause which the Right Honourable Gentleman held in his hands, was the very same with one which WAS negatived in a regular •Committee on Friday List. The object of the Clause was, that if a labouring man should accumulate money in a Saving Bank, that money Was not to be applicable to the relief of the man who had so placed his money, though he might be obliged to apply to tl.e parish for relief—that it should con tinue an inviolable rind to this man and the parish. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER contended that the clause now proposed was ditfereut from that rejected in the Committee. The rejected clause debarred Magistrates from interfering with the money in the S :ving Banks, in case a person should be under the necessity of applying for parish relief ; the present clause gave them a discretionary power with respect to it. Sr . CHARLES MONCK complained of the manner is which the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Rose) wished to press this clause against the sense of the House; and argued at some length against its injustice and impolicy. Lord BINNING was of opinion, that the Amend ment proposed by his Right Honourable Friend would remove every possible objection to the clause as it originally stood. Mr. - LOCKHART, on the contrary, contended, that the clause would give a power to the Magis trates, which would be either altogether nugatory, or dangerous to the existing system of the Poor Laws. Lord COMPrON and Mr. WILBERFONCR supported ' the clause, and Mr. HART Davis opposed it. The clause was then brought up. On the motion for reading it a first time, Mr. ROSE observed, that as it bad been nega tived the other evening in a very thin House, and as it was of the utmost importance to the success of the measure, he had telt himself justified in again sub mitting it to the consideration of the House. Seldom had a Bill been so scrutinized as this Savlng Banks Bill. He had had communication with upwards of SOO persons out ut doors respecting it. A Commit tee of Members of both Houses had strictly investi gated it; and it had also undergone the examination of a number of Gentlemen in the mercantile line.— if it was a measure that, in his opinion. would lighten the burden of the poor on the other classes of the community, and would infuse a spirit of independence ibto the lower orders. Having the highest opinion of the magistracy of the country, he had had no hesitation of incorporating into the clause the suggestion of his Right Honourable Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer). Sir C. MONCK maintained that the clause so amended was more objectionable than in its original form. Highly as he thought of the Magistrates of the country, and persuaded as be was that no other nation could boast of so respectable and useful a class of individuals, he objected to conferring on them die power of giving an unappealable judgment, - except A necessity that could not be contradicted were shewn for doing so. The clause was then read a first and second time. On the motion that it be made part of the Bill some further discussion took place, ia which M. CALCRAIPT, Mr. BABINGTON, the CHANCELL3It . OI the EXCIISQUXU, and Sir C. Moxcx participated. A division ensued—Fur the Motion, 59—Against it, 25—Majority, 34. • The Report was then agreed to, and the Bill was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. On re-admission to the Gallery the House was in a Committee on the ScotcP Distillery Bill, in which some new clausei were inserted. The House resumed, the Report was received, and the Bill was read a third time. - . • /RIM TOWNLAND 'INN DILL. Mr. V. FITZGERALD moved the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee on the Irish - Townland Fine Bill. Sir F. FLOOD, as an honest Irish Advocate, rose to object to this obnoxious, oppressive, and unjust Bill, the expense of carrying which into execution had cost the country, during its operation, no less a sum than At?l1,000. In five counties the expense of le vying lines, amounting to £170.000, cost a sum 01 £150,000. But this was not all, it punished the in nocent as well as the guilty, without even allowing the former any means of proving that they were ig norant of the offence, and had no participation in its commission— (Hear, hear). —lt fell hart also on Members of that House, and on gallant Officers who were abroad, serving his Majesty in the field, for their estates and lands were pulled to pieces and ran sacked in their absence, in levying fines for crimes of whic4 they were wholly innocent., Besides, the real offenders always escaped, the parishes were fined, and there the business ended, instead of the guilty being hunted down and sent into solitary labour, or for soldiers to Attica and the East and West Indies —( 4 laugh).—f! this unjust. oppressive, and expo.. sive Act could be amended, he wield go into a Committee upon it; but believing that this was im possible, and that the whole system of measures con-' nected with this subject must first be' altered, he would object to the .Speaker's leaving the Chair, which,* however, he cordially wished he might long enjoy in health and comfort—(iflaagh). Mr. S FEWA RT was also of opinion that this Bill involved the innocent in one common add indiscri minate punishment with the guilty ; and in a manner in which, as it had been said, it was utterly impossi. ble the former could establish their innocence. It inflicted a blind punigustent of this kind, in a manner the most severe and nnheark4. Why sboulai illicit distillation be punished in Ireland with a severity unknown in any other part of the empire ?—( Hear, hear.)—Wby did not the English China - 11m of the Exchequer, propose the application of similar mea sures to Scotland, where, it he (Mr. Stewart) WAS rightly informed, this illegal practice prevailed to a greater extent than it did in Ireland f— Hear. hear, hear.) —Was not Iteland, he would ask, since the Union, entitled to an equality of the privileges con ferred by the British Constitution; ana did not this Bill make an unfair and direct exception in her case ? Without an equality of laws among the people of that country, it would be in vain to expect peace and contentment. Of the abuse of this power, of 'trying, fines generally, be could give a thousand instances; he would, however, content himself with one, in which he was himself concerned. Before he men tioned it, he begged, however, to state, that with a view to cooperate in giving effect to the existing laws, he had uniformly refused to give a lease to any of his tenants, so long as this illicit distillation conti nued. The particulars of his own case, to which he referred, had reached him this day, and were as fol. low :—A Mr. Newman came down in the neighbour hood of his estate, with an escort of cavalry and in. faniry, to enforce those fines. He went at once, and without any ceremony, drove off his (Mr. Smwart's) cattle, for a sum of 4 4 28. A friend in vain inter posed, and urged his (Mr. Stewart's) absence attend ing his duty in Parliament, and, of course, his total ignorance of any illicit distillation there. The on!y answer to this interposition was, the cattle must be drove, or the money paid. Iles servant procured the amount, and saved the cattle. Others might, how. ever, have had their whole property swept away from a want of means to redeem it. This was the sort of recompense Gentlemen received who had attempted to carry the law as it stood into execution. What encouragement was there for a man to step forward in defence of the law, ale was thus rendered respon sible for the act of any good for-nothing, wandering distiller, who thought proper to bide a still on his demesne ? It could be put there in the dead hour of night, either through accident or and how could the owner of the land prove his innocence ? What woulj be the effect of such a law in this coun try ?—Would the farmers of England be satisfied to, have their property taken away in this manner ? He was sure not; and lie was so convinced of the injus. tice of the measure, that were not the Session so completely advanced be would move for its repeal. With the view, therefore, of modifying it, so far as it were possible, he would consent to go into the Committee ; and he would recommend the Honour. able Baronet (Sir F. Flood) to do the same. Though opposed to the principle of the Bill, he yet hoped for the present to mitigate its evils ; and with that view would make the experiment in the Committee. If something were not done for Ireland, the conse quences might be more serious than some persons ima gioFd. He principally called the attention of the House to the minutes of evidence given before the Distillery Committee. They would there find such a case made out, as he was sure would induce them at once to repeal this Bill. The Honourable Gentle. man concluded by entreating, on the part of his coati. try, the most serious eonsidetation to th's measure. Sir T. FLOOD, in explanation, consented, on the same ground as the last speaker, to go into the Committee. Mr. V. FITZGERA LD concurred in the Ho nourable Meuiber's wish, that the minutes of evidence to which he had adverted should be read by the House. That Committee had expressed itself in fa vour of the principle of this Bill, but had recom mended some modifications of its provisions. It was for the consideration of these that the House was then' called to go into a Committer. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by denying the assertion of the Honourable Baronet opposite, that the Committee had pronounced the principle of the Bill oppretsi re, or that the extent of Townlands was such as he had de scribed. Mr. FRENCH said, that the Committee had en couraged the establishment of small stills, and their Report should have been brought up antecedent to the consideration of the present Bill. The Honour. able Gentleman then referred to the evidence given in that Committee. S,veral Commissioners were ex amined, who were conversant with the subject. Some were cf opinion that the duties ought to be reduced— others qualified this opinion. It was, however, clear, that so far from its being the interest of the gauger to stop the present progress of illicit eiitillation, he was clearly concerned in its extension, so long as he had one-half of the seizures he made. From the evi dence before the Committee, it was clear that in 1810 and 1811, when the duties were reduced and the fine done away, much of the evil for which they sought to apply a remedy had been removed. But the idea proposed by some, of allowing a certain sur plus produce of the licensed stills to go forth free of duty was a chimerical sort of remedy. It would be, in fact, setting one smuggler against another—a po. lig that would tend to the success of both.—(Hear.) It was in vain to suppress illicit distillation by the present plan. So convinced was he of this, that, year after year, he would renew the subject, until he could at length succeed in calling the attention of the English Members to so important a grievance—a grievance,, the extent of which was such, that, when once known, it must be remedied. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY said, that he did not mean to oppose their going into the Committee, cause he thought it extremely desirable that something should be done to mitigate the evils at present cum plained of. But before they went into the Commit. tee, he thought it extremely important that some farther information should be given as to the nal me of this Bill. Toe re:nedy proposed was in itself an evil—though no doubt one evil may be necessary to counteract a greater, it was yet essenti..l that tne na ture of the evil should be contrasted with that of the leemedy. The bitter was indeed enornr , us. Whit (Sir Samuel) wanted was, some explanation as to 'the experience of the remedy that had been applied. Had it prevented du) evil of illicit distillation? If it had not, then they were only adding one evil to ano ther. From the information he had received, he un derstood the remedy bad been quite unsuccessful du: ring its' three years operation. Mr. PEEL was willing to abide by the compari son of the two evils; it was indeed the fair iunv on which the quasdou ought to rest—(//ear.) $e would I. alsos iu conjunction with his Right Has. Friend. en- Wattle perusal of the minutes °I AA Dittill: 7 . 7 c r , mince. Tt was impossible to deny th a t the fine,',' tern involved the innocent as well as th e gully • t `. the question was, whether that must n ot b e ted to, to get rid of a greater evil ? Ansi agai n the Honourable and Learned Gentlem an had for t 4 J at, whether it was in fact efficacious? I n upon this consideration, it was import ant to te .„ 01 ?; -dates, and compare them w.th results. The Ai:: l"'; been suspended in 1810, and repealed i n lsl2. .; Was re-enacted in 1813. The revival had emaila4i'. from the inquiry at a Committee appointed to cori der the then state of things. A second Cntnre,ti; had been this year appointed, to see if th e n3 , 4 i: bad been successful ; and their decisio n , b y a m,si: riti of 13 to 5 was, that it would be i nexpedicat t, alter the principle of fining '1 nwnlanis. Oi court. , a great part of the defence of this measure band in its efficacy. Looking at the cpteition i n view, then, they had thetesttinony in the C0m0,,,, of the Member for Leitrim, that both in that c and in Cavan illicit distillation had been nearly guished, when the system of fining was reptaie.t, that it revived immediately alter wards. In tae stn.', T own i mi d s i t had, in fact, su. - ceedtd, and the was chiefly limited to the larger oiler. If it could i 1 suppressed without this remedy, vf mine it tv.-ii:J se better. He feared not, ;cut that there only remaicej a choice of alternatives. To chew the enormii iii tent of the system .of illicit • di.tillation, it nonhl hc only necessary for 1 irn to say, that a car a i tk i e , l .83 horses carrying spirits, and escoited by a 4., e body of armed men, had entere , l and publid r loaded their stock in the metropolitan town ot It was not alone the reduction which the teven le bo , tained by this practice that constituted the evii, int the demoralization of the people—(flear s ktar,) t o. sequent upon this lawless practice. He did bore, upon the whole, that the measure would, unde r aia the circumstances, be permitted to proceed. Mr. FRENCH said, that he stmul.t Like an tut) , opportunity its the ensiling Session, of !Hinging tl , e matter before the House. Mr. BENJAMIN SHAW said, he was extremely gratified at the sentinsenu expressed by the Right Hon. Gentleman who had spuken last but one Peel), nevertheless, .he did nut think any other plan could be adopted with more probability of success, for the prevention of distillatiiin, than the reductom of the duties on spirits. Being one of the Committee, it was the strong conviction of lit mind that the esil, , under the measure now proposed, so far from do creasing, would be increased—and in this feeling It was satisfied it would be found necessary to mo t for a new Committee early in the ensuing year. It ;had been urged that the decrease of duty would, from the consequent reduction in the price of spirits, ; tend to the demoralization of the people. This tii.ct, however, he conceived might be prevented, by in. creasing the quantity of wort, an arrangement which would have the effect of raising the price of spirits, and, in fact. keeping it at the standard of est year. Central MITCHELL rose, fir the purpose of bearing his testimony to the baneful effects which :he reduction of the duties in the course of the year MO bad upon the morals of the people of Ireland. He har. pened ill that year to be the Comn:arider of the dis trict of Arm:sgh, And was witness to 4 career of iin morality arising► Luc of the cliev price of spirits, which none who had not witnessed it could have creditel Sir N. courHußsr considered that the evi dence before the Committee fully justified ti e neces sity of the fine upon Townlands. Sir GEORGE HILL was quite satisfied that reduction of the duty was the more direct otiose of preventing illicit distillation ; but at tl.e same t.me a shQuld be cousidered.how far this measure miglit'pro , duce an effect injurious to the morals of the peopir. Viewing this as the probable result of a reduced rite of the duty, he felt inclined to support the pieseht measure, although in bouir respects severe. General HA It would nut oppose the BA but begged to obsei ye. that the system of Townlaad that was peculiarly oppressive. He had received variots letttss descriptive of the hardships resulting tion! tees plan, in which nutty innote,,t and industrious persons were deprived of their lit. le all, to pay the floes which had been intim-ed by those of whom they had sot the slightest knowletke. Mr. BUTTERWORTH thought it recoliAllY hand that the innocent s:tould suffer for the gitilt!, and suggested whether an arrangement could not hit made, whereby the op ration of the tines incurred by illicit distillers might be confined to a narrower ct rn• pass thm at preNenr. Mr. V. FITZGERALD said, that the Townlnuls were the smallest divisions of land in Ireland In most cases these divisions did not exceed two hun dred acres. The House then went into the Committee, and the Bill was read clause by cialise. Upon that clause being , read, which made it a in7s ,f, me:inor for the first offence of illicit distillation— General STEWART proposed to extend the pa. nishment in this case to seven yeArs' transportatioa. Mr. PEE LE opposed this suggestion as ton se• vere, considering the prevalence of the nffenre, an! the unfortunate habit of drinking spirituous liptais which existed in haunt]. Ittr. STEWART thought that severity. to 11 c few would be mercy to the many. The CHANCELLOR o f the EXCHEQUI" , it thought that the law as it stood would be qui.r s. fitient to prevent the evil, without having r: c, tirse'n the severe measure propnsed by the gidlant Ceat Mr. V. FfTZGER A I.D s.iid, that many C ..t -tlemen had requested him to propase a clause to 111, effect suggested by the Honourable Gentleman (M-. Stewart) ; but f.:r the reasrms wsigned by his 1:4;; Honourable Frieni (Mr. Peek) he had thoarla It uitjust to bring tor ward such a measure without ti:e fullest deliberate:4. Mr. STEWART observed, that if seven rrri transportation was thcught too severe, a law an.;! be enacted whereby the offenders might be sent 61 board the hulks, or to a man of war. . After a few observations from Mr. PEEL! and Mr. . 4 " 4 . FOSTER, the clause in its original form was car• ried, as was the clause making the punishment tranrl portation for seven years for the second offence. 'The other clauses of the Bill were then disposed of, after vihich the House resumed, and the Bemi! of the Bill, as amended, was ordered to be received to-morrow. The Bill for punishing :alit ideds fonni guilty cf • g I