Star. — London, England, 1816-03-28 00:00:00

~ -~ ~. me m a cting as Secretary of the Admiralty, who iv ri - o hed to alter the situation of all the Clerks in that d , l ,,,ireent, could not hare adopted a more s kilf u l wade of carrying his intentions into effect, than by ffse nr:ng such an order. But he could not conceive t a period of war, this increase of salary was not • Tante j, what reason could be adduced for allowing 5, she, the country was in a state of profound peace. /Jew le ar aament bad an opportunity of examining t he %subject, and investigating the necessity of the st e rn um., it was carried into effect. But surely it m i l ar have been' deterred for a few months, until• s i tsat ien of thicountry was sifted—until it was the wen whether or net the Property Tax would he re newed. Some doubt might be entertained on this' ' t although he was aware, Ministers, in their ima rn • • • ted the success of their faeourite mea ration, AtItICIpA ore. ( hey tild not carry it, supposing they harboured 1 , ( l o b/ on the subject, they must have seen, that every Cleat ie every other Department of the State, as well t h e Admiralty, would, by the cessation of the tax, p m' 410 in every £lOO. Certainly it wonld have bees a s well to have waited for the decision of Par ' asc ot on this point; but, in consequence of the precipitancy with which the business was conducted, Ibi s km of 10 per cent. was superadded to the in crease of salary. He felt extremely unwilling to op. pose any regulation which tended to the benefit of a ve ry meritorious and industrious body of individuals. }laving keen at the head of one of the offices in which these aln rations were made, he had an opportunity of observing, generally, that the Cie: ks at Somerset. House, were most sedulous in their attention to their .respective duties, and it was therefore with pain that be said any thing, which, by possibility, could give t hem uneasiness. But he could not allow a system to be adopted, which entailed additional expenses on the public, without any intimation being given to Parlament on the subject, until after it had been tarried into effect. Preparatory to this alteration, deli 'pourable Secretary, in the last Session, halo- aged a Bill, with which few Gentlemen were ac. qu ieted, on which alk his after proceedings were b o ded. That Bill permitted his Majesty to make may superannuation or pensions that might appear labial proper—and went, in fact, to do away the provisions contained in a Bill introduced by an Ho. resrabk Gentleman near him (Mr. Bankes). Un. der this new WM the Older in Council of the 30th of 'unary WAS sent forth, and wider if the stii;er amnions were made in the Admiralty-Office, &c. He should now advert to the alterations that bad been made in the different department.. lu 1814. tit number of Clerks in the Admiralty-Office, Navy Pay-Oace, and Victualling-Office s was 445, exclu chiding extra Clerks—at present the. number was 4al—being a diminution of '24 men—the difference between the war and peace establishment. Now came the question of salaries; 1814. they wont:used .4'90,340 Jo the year rui6, to ........... .......... . lOa.oun So that what the public had gained by a diminu tion of twenty-four Clerks, WAS an increase of salary el £lO,OOO a-year.—( Cries of Hear, hear, hear). — It was surely not too much for him to say, that this regulation was bad. It the regulation bad net taken place, all parties would have been satiefiad.,-.1 Teeuty-four persons vanilla not have been turned elrift, and the public would have been £lO,OOO in I 'pocket—(4 laugh.) But this was tea all. To get taut those 24 persons it was necessary to auperan-1 mate them ; and, under another head. it would be leand that the diffeience sn anitium baween the Es timate of Admiralty Office soperannuations, in 1814 aadlS:6, was 43000, and in the Navy Pay Office, ii7oa, making in round numbers 45000, which, OM to the increase of XlO,OOO in salaries, gave an sdiiional annual expense of 415,000, for which no reason could be assigned. Paili tme n t was never con sulted on the matter. The Older in Council was hared on the 3041 of January, the vc'y day before Pargannent atst.rnble.l, as if to prevent any ititerfe ttsce on their part— (Hear, hear, hear.) Ile would ow call the attention of the House to the AdMiralty Mt. .1n December 1800, at a time V hen an im itate navy was employed, there were only sixteen rinks; but now the frinour ible Secretary had paced twenty-eight on the establishment. It was true he reduced the nu robes, comparing it with 1814, frail 35 to 25 ; but comparing it with 1800, he had ' made an increase of twelve. These men, too, were 44eed on the establishment. They were not extra aulta.l, o c e s ia b e removed when circumstances travail it necessary —no, being placed on the es-' lahiament, there they must temain, neless they tete dismissed for misconduct, or gloss incapacity. TA, he conceived, was an imposition on the public, *lab could not, and ought not, to be borne. At a ta it critical period of war, sixteen clerks were found lhacient to transact the business of the Admiralty, 4100 ‘a, when they were taught to expect a lasting Nce, twenty-eight were employed. The Honour -4le Se:salary might say, that he had retained only 4 atreiglit out of thirty-five employed in 1814. He. 1011 1 . d ctititend that this was very useful for the N~llio'w did it bear on the individuals dia. "aed ?—Those seven persons were snperauoumed,l and, with the exce pti on o f one , w ho was fifty ft, ,e years of age, the rest were in the prime of life. wie of them had been appointed at 15 years of age, a nd be bad strved for eight years. He bad been Pe'annuated. The Hon. Secretary. under his new u w asletebtion, had supers imnuated a boy I Surely a person superannuated ; on 43(11) a year, at the age :Zor "a, had a right to complain. if he remained °thael he certainly %amid arrive at a south salary. i g her There was another Gentleman, of Years • • • of Age. If that person was not in the prime Isle+then lie (Mr. Tierney) was getting into his la t• ref laugh.) The whole advantage of this Yeern settled to be, to mulct the country, most .oa 'alma "Y• cf 415,000 per annum. In conclusion, I'l Ri ght Ham Gentleman observed, that, as he bad 'o 1.41..0 Ls _ani , retard the necessary business of Gpvero 7nhe should propose to vote one-half of the sum tl Z ths ti . a .a d n , d which would cover the expense for six during that period, the new system of l'ei;tl.4_la_ti,o_n that had been introduced into the Admi 141,7_Ulfice,itc. could be fully investigated in a COM. tie! abo ve stairs.—(l-lear,hear.) Sir w L . A RRENDER. then proposed to wa di 1111 $ hut Resolution, which was dope acetar -441t,,1Y,a-ar,,,Hi e then moved—h That a sum not - exceed-- er': 23 . 16, 7d. be granted to his Majesty, to e salaries and contingent expenses of the 141111 % for the year 1818." • • • • Mr. T/ERNEY moved, as an amendment, a • that 1 the sum of 4'29,861. 18s. Std. shOuldhe substituted, to defray the expense from the 25th of December, 1815, to the 24th - of - June, 1816, being a period df 183 days." Mr. CROKER said, that he had fully proved the truth,of the assertion he had made on a former'sight, that the Ordinary Estimates, in the first year • of peace; were greater than those in the last year of War, and the Right Honourable Gentleman was obliged to admit-the justice of the statement, which he could not deny. With respect to the other point. he would take upon himself to say, unless he had made some trifling error in examining Estimates, 100 years old, that even under the heads alluded to by the Right Honourable Gentleman, no dimi nution had taken place, in the first year of peace, compared with the last year of war. The Right Ho nourable Gentleman, in selecting his years of corn prison, had quite overlooked 1801 and 1802. Of the latter year, they had often been triumphantly told, as one in whi c h the. greatest economy and re trenchment were acted on by the Administration then in power, which Administration the Right .Honour able Gentleman afterwards joined. The Honourable Secretary here entered into a detailed comparison of the charge for' the Civil Officers of the Navy, the Outports, Dock-yards, &c. in 1801, a year of war, and 180'2, a year of peace ; from which it appeared that the increase in the latter was upwards of sixty thousand pounds, while the present ordinary Esti mates, compared with those of last year, presented a decrease of four or fiveahousaed pounds. This fact, he thought, was sufficient to destroy the Right Ho. nourable Gentleman's prima facie case, which was founded on the principle, that. an increase of expefise in one or two particular items was a sufficient reason for not going into a Committee • but which circum stance, in his mind, rend er td a Committee absolutely necessary. The Honourable Secretary then adverted to the alteration in the salaries of the Clerks, to whom he paid a very high compliment for industry and abi. lities. He denied that the Bill introduced by him gave to his Majesty unlimited power to grant superannua tion or increase of salary. It only went. to preserve that right which bad existed under anteceleat orders. He had explained the nature of the Bill to the Ho.' nourable Gentleman opposite ( Mr. binges), and, at his request, he had inserted several words to make its object more clear and apparent. The Right His. Gentleman had attributed to him the whole merit, as lie was pleased to term it, of making the alterations in the situation to the clerks. lie must, however; know, that he could not move a single step in the'' business, without the concurrence of his Maji:s.y's Government. The question was, in tact, forced on his Isla;este's Government. In 1811, the der Ls me: mot ializ.rd Cie Board of Admiralty, for an int:tea:x.ol salary—but that body was unwilling, in a petiod nl extreme pressure. to listen to their request. In the' year 1812, the Honourable Member for Westminster: (Sir Francis Borth:It), who was not remarkable for a wilt to increase tile public expenditure, m ide st . motion in that House, the tendency of which was increase the salaries of the Clerks—boo, at the request. of his Honourable Friend (Sir G. Warred,ler),.be withdrew it. In 1813, the lion. Member for West minster again introduced the subject, whets be was informed, that it was under the consideration of the Lords of the Admiralty, and would spe.dily be brought before the This clearly diesvad, that there was no intention of hut rying the business for ward. Strict inquiries were then made, and the inferior clerks were found, in many instances, to be placed in a state of distress, that demanded immediate relief The present alteration was, in consequence, made— which, while it deprived the higher Clerks of - many advantages, improved the situation of those who bad previously been very inadequat ly provided for. At no period within his ( Mr. Croker's) recollection were both Secretaries and tneir Clerks so actively occupied as they were within the last four months. To ac count for the vast increase of business between the present•petiod and that of 1802, ode reason would, 11.2 trusted. suffice, and this was, that in 18 , 1 there were but - :;,3011 out isns;oners of (al. while at present there were non less than 33,000, (Hear, hear),—every one of whom created at least two or three letters, besides their actual persqual in spection at the Admiralty, and the great accumula tion which they necessarily gave td the prize discs.— 'floe statement of tutu accounts'must be drawn from 20 folio books, including the ships' books, and very often a computation of the !netts' time in months," weeks, and even days, in the Navy Office cerciti cates.—(llear, hear).—He would not, indeed, say that great ieductions in those departments might not take place in a year or two; on the contrary, he thought there would—because the Pension List and augmentation of Pursers' books, would not in time of peace hear a proportion to their former amount.— On the point of patronage, lie coul,l assure the House, that so far from any matter of this kind being in con templation, it was expressly provided against ; for the heads of departments, in concurrence with the Order in Council, had fully determined that no situ ation was to be filled up, until the whole Peace Establishment was reduced to its lowest level. He (Mr. Croker) denied that the forcing out Clerks, as their removal had been termed, was an act of hii— he only acted a Ministerial part, and however painful was the duty, it became indispensable, when he was called upon, as a faithful servant of the public, to state the lowest establishment with which' he could go on: The reductions in his department were seven —.the two eldest, at their own request, one of whom bad been in the service 35 years, the other 87. The five others were selected by the heads of the Depart ments, from the least efficient of their body; and he would appeal to the Members of the Board of Ad miralty, in whose hearing he spoke, whether every fair indulgence had not been shewn in carrying the regulations into effect ? The Honourable Secretary concluded by expressing.a hope that the explanations he had given would be deemed . satisfactory by the Committee.—(Hear, dear.) Mr. BROUGHAM declared, he would endeavour to follow the Honourable Memberthrough his details, at the same time that lie could not bring his mind to the same triumphant conclusion which the Honourable Member set out with affirming would be the result of his speech—(Hcor.)—He was not present, on tile former night, whet' the discussion took .place between his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Tierney) and the Honourable Secretary, nut he, sufficiently conapre- Lbeaded its name, Iron the explanation, which bad just been given. The Hon. Secretary bad, it ap. peered, affirmed,. that from the peace of Utrecht downwards, the first year of peace was one of greater expenditure than the last year of war. In making this assertion, however, he had confined himself to generals, and the only items to which he referred in detail, were those which his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Tierney) omitted, namely, the last year of the termer war, and the following year commencing with the peace of Amiens. In making the compa rison between the two periods, the Honourable Se cretary was loudly cheered, when in his conclusion he chewed, that Lord St. Vincent's Estimates bore, in comparison to the present, an excess of £60,000. On.this point, he (Mr. Brougham) was prepared to demonstrate, that there existed no parallel between the times in question. In 1802 the Estimates were introduced in March or April; but they covered the expenditure of the antecedent three months, which were in fact to all intents and purposes, periods of war, and in every respect quite dissimilar to the present.-e -(Thar.) This year the peace signed six weeks before Christmas, akin nett it was tether surprising it had not been signed as many months before that time; for every body knew, after the transcendent battle at Waterloo, that peace was inevitable. No man was frantic enough to bold a contrary opinion, for we were for so many months in every respect at peace. The delay, indeed, which intervened before the for. malities were concluded, had no reference to warlike threats or dangers, it merely arose out of the territo rial considerations among those great men-merchants, the foreign Potentates, who wet e parcelling out among each other so many millions of souls, and fractional parts of souls. What was the state of things in 1802 ? The Preliminaries of Peace were signed in the month of October, and no man living could, six weeks before the Definitive Treaty was signed, have, with confluence, expected that Mr. Addington WAS likely to make peace with Benaparte—the time was spent in preparation, alarm, and jealoasy—it was then a state of warlike circumspection, during which no Minister could have proposed a reduction of our Navy. So far from there being any comparison between the two periods, they presented a broad dimmer icil con trast. Loa at the enemy then and now. In 1802, we had all Europe to contend with ; and, in the last year of that war, a Northern Confederacy had sprung up, which, though disjointed at the moment. no man couid pos)ibly say might not again preseet itseif.— There was another circumstance. which distinguished the Peace of Amiens, as a maritime peace, from any preceding one. He alluded to the circumstance of our having sent out a fleet of 18 or 20 sail te cruise its the West Indies, to watch the armaments sent not by Bonaparte to Sc Diming°. (Hear, hear.) These were facts sufficient to overthrow the Hon. Secretary's co.nparEon. The next branch was the increase of salaries to clerks, which had been the subject of his' Hon Friend's: (Sir Francis Burdett) former mo tion. How did that case then stand ? His Hon. Ft iend unduustedly complained that the selaries had not been raised—nor, however, on the ground of their insufficiency, but because L oud Barham, then in the Admiralty, After allowing several chrks to pan chase theit-siruations, bad their incomes reduced. The cies ks naturallreornprained of a breach ut cony Act and we:e l of comae ifttitled eitherto have a proportion et their Money remitted,or thesalaries they purchased retained. There could be no such claim nate; and yet the 1401%311 of the Admiralty, in conjunction with the revisory, c .rry an augmentation into effect, when subsistence is cheaper, and work less ; and after an increaser of ten per cent. is gained by that admirable proceeding, not so-much of the House, as of the coun try in conjunction with the House—the victory over the Property Tax. (Hear, hear.) He would next ad yea to.the Hon. Secretary's situation of £2OO a year, as Secretary to the Charity for the R-liet of the poor Widows of Officers, with a:4 Assistant of 6100. Why would net the litter be competent to do all the duties of this office? His salary in 1813 was but £.30, it now £lOO. There was also a Paymaster fee Widows' Pensions, at 6600 a-year, and a Clerk at £BO. In 1813, the salary of this officer had been £2OO a year, and no clerk. Why had this increase *risen ? Tee Inspector of Telegraphs (now useless) ought to be completely abolished.—(Hear, hear.)-- In the item of Messengers, a sum of £920 a-year ap. pe ired, -Ithough the Commissioners of Inquiry, in 1785, reported that four Messengers, at an expense 01£270 a.yesr would be sufficient ; there were now six, and at an expense of £920 a-year. The Pay master of Marines was another office, the transfer of which to the office a Treasurer of the Navy was re commended in the Report of 1785. At all events, the Commissioners then recommended that the salary should not exceed RUA/ a-year. Why then was it now ,£ 1000 ?—(Hear, hear.) in the other branchei of this oPice, there was an expenditure of £1340 a-year, where the Commissioners of 1785 had made a regulation not exceeding £720 a-year. The whole result of this argument was to shew that Ministers, in the excess of their zeal for economy, were doubling their expenses..---(Thar, and a laugh.) Parish duties, fire, and 'portage, which in 1813 were but £BOOO, were now rated at_ £5OOO. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman then commented with much sar casm upon the cbarge of £lOOO for the office charges of Lord Cethcart's sinecure place of Vice-Admiral of Scotland, and then proceeded to expose the pro tesien and waste in the Government expenditure, under the head of « ashursements for Law Suits." The account was this year £lO,OOO. As a Lawyer, lie was glad to see such a provision made for his brethren of the long robe, by those who indulged in the luxury of the law. Besides this sum there was £4.00 a year for an assistant Counsel, and £5O (mark the strange inversion 1) for a Counsel-in-Chef. The legal expenses of the Mint were also enormous. He spoke from his own professional experience when he asserted that there was a profusion in the Govern. ment law-suits, which would be nothing short of abiolute insanity on the part of the wealthiest and most litigious individual, who had an insatiable relish for the delight of a lawsuit.—(A laugh.)—lo cases where lin individual, with this species of taste, would indulge hims .11 with two Counsel, Government would not be put off with less than six or seven. (Crier of Ivor, hear.) The attorniee bills bore, of course, the same proportion; and where, in private cases, one or twowit noises would be deemed sufficient, the briefs in Govern meat cases were garnished with '2O or 30.—(Near.) I'he Honourable and Learned Gentleman then de fended his Right Hon. Friend's (Mr. Tierney) view of the system of superannuating Club; which was ' confirmed, not contradicted, by the Hon. Secretary opposite. Among the seven superannuatinus stated by the Honourable Secretary, the ages of the parties were from 52 to.22—the ottlaties ot the youngest £l3O a year, eqnal to the halfpay of a wain:led Major in , the army. Now one ot those Gentlemen who had been discharged was, it apeeared, but 41 , years of age, though he was in the office 35 yeetesi— From chic statement of service, he must have beets employed at nine years of age—no eat ly p-riod, in. deed, when it was considered L:iV, according to this scale of prematurity, the El u ur. hle Secretary was superannuating lads of 22 —(4 laugh )—lt....y,!rt.u,g to the sinecures among the Lords ot the A iniiralty, he (Mr. Biougharri) roust repeat, fornre assertion, that the fleet! Civil Lords might be altaget7ier spared.—(Hear, hear.)—The First Lord of Ile: Ad miralty, from his great responsibility, had not per haps a pound more or less than he dcserved. The three Sea Lords of the Admiralty were indeed too lowly paid for their great au.2 responsible duties— they had but £lO3O a year each, the sane as the three Civil Lords, who, in fact, did nothiafy, for their income, although they were the pr persons on whom the whole blame w , ,uld b: flung in the possible event (which Goo forbid) ot a naval disaiter. —This mode of remunerating ;tulle service. eiviag those who did much little, and those who did little ouch, was like the conduct of the spendthrift in the ' waste of his thoughtless profusion. 'Chose. civil Lords of the Admiralty did, indeed, perform d nice of another kind, but they were duties for which ihe public ought not to pay-- . .hey assisted in m oking Houses at four o'clock, an d in voting, ace edieg to their consciences, upon. all occasions. All th it "re mained for him to state was to express his conviction, that unless the Committee took care that the practice of retrenchment should keep pace with the profession of its principle, they would abandon that pledge in which they were already bound to the etthlid. Mr. CROKER said, that if the House were not already acquainted with the tone and manner which the Henourahle Geetlernan had taken trmn himse:f lately to assume, they must be surprised at his tone and manner on the present occasion—(Hear, hear, from the illinittcrialside) tone and manna: not oply inconsistent with the reseect due to Parliament, but such as should nor be admitted in p;ivate society. Mr. BROUGHAM rose to order. It was very painful to hear himself so attacked for any cxpresi, which he might have used in the course of the debate. He thought he had made no more than a plain, mi. flute statement—(3/ ,cal ofitear, hear, from all tide, of the Hutu ) . He appealed to the Committee—he flung hirinself upon the. Committee, and would ask whether there was any one Member who could say that any thing which he had stated deserved the cx. pression of the lioneu-able Gentleman opposite—for he begged the expression to be noticed, as it was quire new to Wm. wit/gin the walls or the House, that 64 it would not have been tolerated in private company ?" Mr. CROKER—WouId any such expression bare been tolerated in private company as that used hy the Honourable Gentleman, when he talked of the con venient kind of conscience which' persons connected with Government had, as to theaway in which they gave their votes—( Hear, hear.) If the Honourah:e Gentleman meant to abandon the expression he was satisfiea. He understood from his gesture that hi meant to abandon it. Mr. BROUGHAM said he did not mean to aban don any thing that he had said. He was proceeding to make some farther statement, but was obliged to' sit down, by cries of Order ! and Spat., :pole I Mr. BENNErf rose to order.—He protested against the menacing Inanner of the Honourable Gentleman on the other side of the Utilise (Mr. Croker).—(Louttcries of Order, Order). Lott! BINNING rose to order.—He had heard nothing in breath of order from his Honourable Friend (Mr. Croker), although be bad been twice called to orders he, tnerefore requested the Chairman to protect his Honourable Friend from such interrup tions—(Hear, hear). Mr WYNNE expressed his astonishment at the kind of discussion which had arisen, and to hear an Honourable Member talk of an insinuation being abandoned. The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bnoonati) submitted, that when a breach of order was complained of., the panicular instance should be stated, and that the words should be ordered to be taken down, so that the sense of the Committee might be taken upon the case. Mr. CROKER resumed.—Rut for the circum stance which he had stated, he would have heard the insinuation with astonishment,, and was therefore sorry that he ha been mistaken in supposing the Honourable Gentleman meant to retract it. Such an insinuation as that there were many Members of the House who voted for &very measure of Govern ment, whether they thought it right or wrong, was one Which he felt most deeply—Wear, hear, hear,) — and he felt it so, not only as being applied to his Honourable Friends around him, but as affecting the character and dignity of l'arliatnent.—( Bear, h ear , hear.) —He would - appeal to the Honourabl e Gen tlemen on the other side of the H ouse ' w h o h a d held similar situations to those of the M em b ers a ll u . ded to by the Hon. Gentleman, whether they wouLl not have been most strongly moved by any such in. sinuation as the abandotirnet of any part of their public duty for some paltry private consideration ? (Hear, hear.) 'There were none to whom he would more confidently appeal on this subject than to those Gentlemen who sat in the Board of Admiralty for. med during the year of IBo6—than whom there was not a set of higher mina,' men—be would appeal to them, whether, in a similar situation, they would net have treated such an insinuation as a foul calumny (Hear, hear.) But to go to the question before the Comrni tee—the Hon. Gentleman said, that helMr. Cruker) made temporary clerks permanent by a sort of legerdemain. Now, on this subject, he begged to repeat what he had stated some nights ago, th at h a d one thec clerk to ebeeaany prospect of peace he h a d not a dd e d the establishment—that he had refused many of those cases in which individuals had those claims upon him that worked most strongly. (Hear.) The Honourable Gentlemai had talked too of * sinecure office which he held, besides his situation as Secretary of the Admiralty—this was being Secretary to the Widows' Fund ; an office far from being a sinecure, and the salary of which was the same npw A% it had been (hied in 1739, namely, er ou a year, out o f w hi c h h e gave a part to the Fund.—(floo) NI