Star. — London, England, 1816-03-02 00:00:00

te he which Ift 4l I resulgo;: XC NEQ ..tt e f o F4l 'IS r C 1 nOt c l the Hole ust da nor. rfeetlfabit )Pottott 44 1 , 1 °414 tbit. Ad vance LLoi t of °t,7. ail: ivis KCHE QuE for c , ll iv4 ntlke t 0 ,4 4 the absen ce Probbly a He tI we t r?ed LLOR be C oneeati yeti. writs were Writ Loa ... is aad ition from' the b ozo , I ° ll 4 duty from the raft. he. 1111 the 4 the Id all in Sud c be ion ed by erest; reu twat of r: dimly est e table. Pet;.1.3 4 t against n the table. 4 a Pet .hood of essed state elief from itinns aR borou I aga in ct he 44trei tricts iu tte inhJ against I iilar Peat Beth nting the 1 nhabiter.o 1' of the P tendon of i mete ci .hey ►t+ted ricultural ject of ny of the , pay the !nueNes, ruly age Pplifed hey hAd hardly riculau d ben .dustry is !ople Orr ve aid le aged uch a ti' we d, co !lied to. r of the Stock] He of Mr• t, re of 4u' thxt X as also , Limb t° Ova , 1--( A 0' ; era ~f~ a;sq He netal be re e kic uld 0' td ' PPP" - rnaP ef. Gentlemen, when they obierved , th at, in . fion t h en before them, it was truly sta ted by g peg t tra Joule:), on whose behalf it was presented, that it alb:rcii was primarily occasioned by the dis. ...,51„1,ieb at resent o verwhelmed the a g ricultural 7ie_iliare, hear.) Another observation of the 7nnuta hie Gentleman, in which he perfectly aiited, t h e necessity of a system of the strictest economy , hg adopted by his Majesty's Ministers—(Hear.)' „ o w o ppose every measure that was not marked reennosay. p led his views on this point he had given g StrOn.felt pge to his constituents, in the To te rha d g i v en two nights ago in that Houae—a'vote leeh,,however painful to himself, an imperious naeo i :duty dem anded—(Near , hear.) GKENFELIa expressed his opinion; that, if npe r retrenchments were made in every depon ent o f Government, particularly in the military de irsvnt, it would be quite unnecessary to continue O JiOLIS burden, the Income 'l'ax, which, although partial and oppressive in its operation, A in a constitutional point of view, still more ob ton sble--,-(Hear, heart) He hoped that retrench eat, in the general service of the country, would o dor it unnecessary even to raise a loan from the oblic. But, if a loan should be called for , it would , h i s - o pinion, be expedient, in the highest degree, to oil ourselves of the clause (commonly called Mr. o , t cbuse), in the Bill of 1786, and to take from Wiring Fund the sum that was wanted. if a aeon course were pursued, the effect would mere lyre th . put into the pocket of the Loan Contractor ro& which, under a different system, would t oot. to a considerable saving to the public.-1 ifkge op e r.) ,The income Tax was so odious in its o re, that, under no modifications whatever, ought ito be resorted to at a period of peace. It was not early objectipaable on account of its burdensome w oe, hut because its operation was so repugnant to na y principle of civil liberty, that no country de • le d to b e called frt.. . which submitted to ) Be alluded particuhu l y t o its inquisitorial pc:tare:4 t ibia had been exercised in a way trust Oppressive l ed injurious to the public ; not by the Commis ion, who performed their duties gratis—but b *Commissioners for the Affairs of Taxes in Sown: ot h ae e—(liser, hear.) It was by them chat w 4 Zbe termed inquisitorial torture had been u*.f. ),In his opinion, as to the propriety o f tM et a part of the inOing Fen d, k ne w !taking many(scd from Gentlemen on that • dit‘ for whose abilities he felt the highest ide of pec th t e . iiiasotted his opinion in 1813, and nothin g lad since Occurred had tended to alter th n e o sen t 111--- that be then felt and expressed. H's opinion was,' ti t nl ha e t nt i s this odious Tax should be abandoned, (u he hoped, f *co th e general tone of disapprobation which the em b e r y manifested, it would be,) and it, every p ale retrenchment having been made, still some f art h e r pecintiAry atsistance was required ' that i t world then be more advantageous for the country, i n the prelim circumstances, rather than have re mule to a Loan,* or to this most oppressive Tax to take what war wanted from the Sinking Fund.... (Hew; ken) Mr. RAMMERSLEY deprecated any interfe rence,with the Sinking Fund. On 'this point, he wouLtremind the House of th e last • by King William, one of the w . speech .delivered 'fit Monarchs thac i e n v i e b r a re s ign e e e l d h : st o h v a e nd r th ian is " co P irtry r , haat the throne. to myself, that no person who has eevesar said—s' .Bat oal-a Parliamentary arrangenunt will suff er Ki by it." These were ainust the last words of ig William, and they ought ir f agotte h n e by t hat.. House. With aspect to the flopetty Tar, entirely agreed in the .entiments of the Honour..s'e e Ge n alit° who. had shit 'Picea —Wear, h„,) H e e considered th tress e dis el the Country to have' b occasioned, in a Feat measure, by that deo.stabl i e n and shametto Tax. t .1 ought to be rec o llected, Parliament was pledged t o put an mid to this T ax when conciud l'hit was one greatreasolnn peace wastornotre awing it, 11. r there was another still greater—the contquences produced by ea t is abominable tucisure• While that lasted, -as, in fact, no British Constitution..-.( B ear , r.) l his had been said a few nights before 1 guishe :1 Member of :hat House (Mr. Coke ) , k it he had not devoted him self entirely to tole ;,ter s t he people, might have sat in th e House of Pee rs es ; and he agreed entirely in the truth of the sentiment, which, coining from such stouter, ought to make a great impression on the Home-- k ..fitear, Bear.) • /h. PONSONLiY did not rise for the purpose of thelletru are adapted isginto td forany, discuss ionmeeting *as to the mode that those expenses which the state of the country emanded ; he kt 'shed in-:rely his every G entleman that is own mane, and in the name of his co....tituents, that de:eaabie measure, the Income %%A -••(ileary kw). —and every part i f the country was responsive to the • s oi expressed—(Hear, hear) An Ho pourabdemned7 any r approp riation les ( Mr. Hammers e) eon. the Sinking Fund to the service of the ontr H of e meant not to argue on the propriety or imprOprietfof such a proceeding, but he would call the 'attention of the House to the' only true point connected with this subject—that was the reduction ol li e e xpense . in every department of the • Government ,or. Every thing else was ickery, delusion, Kd falsehood, a nd . imposition on the V• pie —(lfear, hear.) euctson of expense, and t44' alone, particulait the h expehse of the military department, could ava il t the present moment; and it Ministers would not ado pt at system spontane ously,he hoped t he H ouse would compel them to em. brace it.—(Hear, hear.) BLNN Er r • was ooserve3, that this the pe. tned ev,ni tig on w hich he had missed . the Right f l r l u o rn o. G in: nt p l l e a m ce an . ( the Chancellor of the Exchequer) in that House. This -conduct he looked on as a_deliberate slight tolls. House. (Near, h e 3 r.) Mr. Pitt, in the plenitude of his power, hid. never treated the Commons of Greet Britain in that disrespecttul manner. (Hear, hear.) There Were dirt surely e ther Mi n ist er ,: , the t w ho likewise absented themselves ; House was not be deserted' by the Officers of the Crown, d Peat military because the question , our y establislubent was not to . COMIC on e i ght. Mr. GOULBURN said, the House must be OMAR ! , t h at the Noble Lord who filled the office of c , r :_ta rY . of State for tee Foreign Department, was in • d 4 , _s a P?se ds and that, in conseqiience of his iedisposi ' " debates which was to lutes taken -place this ' evening, had been postponed. With respect to the Chalk Am. of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Bathurst) he could state to the Houma, that that Gentleman. had been confined to his bed for some time.. lie was not in a situation to make his appearance in the House. As to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whom he had not seen, he would offer no apology for him. (Hear, hear-) But from the ignorance on this point of an individual, like himself, who burrito communicated with - the Right Honourable Gentleb, man, it was not fair to infer, that his absence was prompted bya desire to offer a slight to the House. With respect to the. Master of the Mint (Mr. W. Pole) he was equally ignorant of the cause alas ab sence. (Year, hear.) He would, however, from his kodwledge of those Honourable persons, undertake to say, that there was not the slightest intention, on the part of either, to neglect his duty, or to offer any disrespect to the House. - Mr. BROUGHAM said, the Right Hon. Gen ; *man had nut accurately described those who were really ill, and those who were only indisposed to come down to the House. He should like to hear a correct account of the sickness by which the Chancel lor of the ExcheqUer and the Masteeof the Mint were afflicted. (A laugh.) Was it an isfiaelsza, or were they troubled with a atrial of the Income Tax ( 4 laugh.) He believed, that there were two or three hours, in the early part of every evening, which were most unfavourable to patients labouring under the latter species of indisposition. (Hear, hear.) He meant, while the petitions, from every part of the country, were presenting against the Income Tax. (Hear, hear.) On these occasions, he believed the symptoms of the diseart were greatly aggravated by certain speeches which were delivered, by Members not connected with any party in that Heusi. He wished to enquire, whether this sort of oidary, by which the Ministers of the Crown were attacked, was not, in fact, a sickness of the Property Tax ? If this were thee Ise, he supiosed they meant to give it up. Mr. LUSIiINGTON stated, that indisposition alone was the cause of ihe absence of his Right He neurable Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), wlia had, with cinsiderable difficulty and inconveni ence, Attended on the two preceding evenings. With respect to the Learned Gentleman's question, as to his Right Ho.. Friend's intention of abandoning the Property Tax, be could assure him, that he continued to think it the wisest and most just measure that could be devised. (Hear, hear.) In this opinion he entirely coincided ; and, whenever the proper oppor tunity arrived, he wo .1d be - ready, as far as his humble abilities went, to meet the Learned Gentle man on the subj ect he tax. An Honourable Member, whose name we could - not learn, stated, that he 'vas not present, on former evenings, when petitions were poured. in against the renewal of the Property Tax, or he should have stated his unqualified disapprobation of it. He al ways disliked the tits ; but he abhorred the idea of its renewal, since it was intended to uphold that mi. litare machiae, which Ministers wished to force upon the country. Lord EBRINGTON said, that a report had this day reached him, from A distant part of the country, that the intention of Ministers to abandon the Pro perty Tax, was very .prevalent. The letter which ersotained this stag mint, set forth, that the idea of 'the tax being abandoned, took its rise from a para. graph which had appeared in a newspaper, remar kable for its support of Ministers. He did not like the circulation of inch rumours, which were set afloat fora sinister purpose. Ministers knew too we]; I I I their duty to the Commons of England, not to .t rte ' their intention of giving up the tax, if such an i lion existed. But it appeared from the observation of the Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. ...u;hlog ton) that nothing was farther from their thou He hoped, however, that the voice of the House of Commons woult; shortly compel them to give up this inquisitorial and oppressive measure. ( Hear, hear.) Phis mode of sen•ihg unfounded rumours abrnt.l, was -me of the many arts ::sorted to, on the present occasion (lie knew not-by wham) to prevent the voice of the people, at public meetings, from being expressed in oppoitiNi to this tax. (H ear.)' Sir JOHN OWEN hoped, that the general ex. pression of pop ilar feeling air oast this tax, which was hea:J it every par, of the country, would pro note a proper effect is D 4 jery's Minnn•Tc, and induce them to abaudon the measure.—(Hear, hear). The i ,reat body of the )(Huff " as compktsly hostile to the tax, for the be" possibl: I eawm—it it were re. new: Jo they were quite unania to pay The Agri- Colonial di,tress thri tiolsout the coiintry was most ap palling, and in no part of th kingdom was it greater than in the County (Pembroke) which he had the honour to represent. If effectual relief were ,not granted, the nature of the people of this country w0..1d be changed—and, instead of a hardy and virtuous body of peasantry, the kingdom would be filled with paupers. He had seen many meetings of labourers, who were ready to supp rt their families by the exertions of honest industry, if they could get employment—but, being disappointed in that expec tation, they were relaed to apply to their respective parishes for relief.— ( Near, hear).—A sort of threat had been held out, that, if the House did not agree to this tax, something worse would be proposed.— The answer to this was, that, when the question came fairly before them, they would know how to dispose of it, as to them seemed fit. If a more oppressive mea sure were introduced, the same power which enabled them to defeat the Property Tax, would be sufficient to compel Ministers to abandon any more burden. some tax, if such a tax could be devised. With re spict to the Sinking Fund, be did not think that the appropriatioe of a part of it to the exigencies of the State, would be any breach of the public faith. He did not coaceiie, when the necessities of the country &m l olded a sacri fi ce, that the interest of the _ stuck. holder, or ,of any other particular body, should be 'I ,opposed to the general, benefit.— (Hear, Isear.)—He hoped as successful as it was general. Ministers, before)) they decamped to press it, should recollect, that - I what was termed firmness, if carried beyond a certain point, became obstio tey, and often led to the worst , consequences.— (Hear. .hear.) observed. that though he did not I, present any petition from Glasoow on the subject of I the Property rex, yet the notioitants of that great city coincided wit's the general sense of the country at large—(Hear, hear.) The Tax, in his opinion, could uoly be puttied tan We grounds pf the most urgent seetuley, led dterefore he did sot easeelve it accessary to inquire whether Parliament was pledged to the country on the subject or hot ? The duty of Parliament, at all times, was to provide for the necessities of the people t but it could not possibly be its duty to impose upon them a Tax, which, at the present time, would be unnecessary, unoonstkutional, and inquisitorial.-..(/Year, hear.) Mr. COKE (f Norfolk) stated, that he hid re cently seen a Geutleman from Scotland, who in formed him, that the population of that country were universally hostile to the renewal of the Tax—and all were most anxious to know, whether there was time sufficient for their Petitions to come up, before the measure was introduced to Parliament ? He (Mr. Coke) was firmly convinced, that so long as this in quisitorial Tax remained; there could be no British Conatitution—(Neer, hear). —He said this on the first day of the Session, and he repeated it now. This mischievous, wicked, and immoral tax was utterly at variance with civil liberty.--(Hear, hear). Lord 'NUGENT was extremely glad that the Honourable Gentleman opposite had stated the in tention of Ministers to press this Tax, because that declaration would dispel a delusion, under *hich the people of England had been labouring for some weeks. That delusion was, the reported abandon ment of the Tax by Ministers, which was calculated to prevent them from-venting their feelings by peti tion. There would now, he hoped, be such a gene ral and spirited manifestation of hostility to the 'fay. as would compel Ministers to recede front their oii ginal intention. Lord MILTON was anxious to know what spe cific proposition would be made on the subject., when the measure was introduced to the House ? Mr. LUSHINGTON said, he was not informed on this point. Mr. BROUGHAM wished to learn when the mea sure would be brought forward, as he deprecated any attempt to take the House by surprise ? Mr. LUSH INGTON answered it could not be in troduced before Wednesday. The Petition was then laid on the table. On the suggestion of Mr. LAMBTON, the ac• count of offices in the colonies, the appointment to which is •ested in the Crown, was withdrawn by Mr. Goulburn, for the purpose of inserting the names of the persons by whom the offices are 611e1 Mr. COKE gave notice that he would, on Thurs day, the 14th inst.tnt, ste , mit to the House a motion on the subject of the IV/r Malt Tax. CIVIL LIST. Mr. BROUGHAM thought it was extremely Ne cessary, that an account of the application of the large sum of money voted, in the I.:st Session, for discharging the arrears of the Civil Li.t, should :.)e laid barite the House. : qttlemen on that side of the House had been taunted for beire, in what was termed, "an eronomical mosd." (Hear,. hear.) The tountry, he btheved, was in an economical mood—and, as the liouse and the nation fully par ticipated in that be was anxious to discover whether the *.mie mood was to be found in higher quarters. If so, he should like to see whether the sum voted last Session, had been applied in tLe way which Parliament intended it should. He did not mean to say, cleft it :tad not been so applied; but, so long as he felt the umiak:it doubt en the subject, be would endeavour to have that doubt removed. The country at large ought to be acquainted with the de tailed application of the ♦ery great sum of money voted to defray the arrears of the Civil List in the last Session. He should therefore move— " hat an humble Address he presented ut the Prince Regent, requesting that be Royal Highness will be pleased to .11rect, that there L, lard betore the House an account of the application of the sum of too ley, voted Let Session, in discharge at the arrears of the (lid List." Lord PA LMERS FON said, as the Learned Gen- Li. man had alluded to an expression (.. an economi cal mood,") made use of by him on a former occa sion, he wished to sae a few words in explanation.— , When he used the expression, he did not mean to is sinuate, twat this was not a time when an economical as ritaxement ought to be set on foot, in every depart inent of Government. His observation applied to what appeared to him to be an overstrained attempt at economy, pafticUlarly with ieterence to our mill. Mary esta blishment. The reductions recommended by Gentlemen opposite did not, in his view of the strltt.t, pri,ceed on a rightiy understood principle of economy —but went to lower, in a degree that would be prejudicial to the country, that establishment which the security of the, nation demanded. Mr. TIERNEY expressed his hope, that, if the document moved for, were granted, it would be so drawn up as to specify every single item, to the dis charge of which the vote of ,Parliament was appro. Foliated. Mr. BROUGHAM said,. that h was important to know whether the Tradesmen's Bills, for the pay went of which this money was voted, had, in tact, been diseiargedl or, in other words, whether the . : real purpose for which it was intended had been kept in view ? He trusted that the result of an in-, , quirt' would chew, that none of the Bills in question were lett unpaid. Mr. TIERNEY said, that if it was not satisfacto rily shewn to him that the money had been applied, as Parliament intended it should, he would move for an examination at the bar of certain witnesses, who' could, perhaps, throw a light upon the subject. Sir W. CONGREVE said, that the money col lected during the Park fetes had been transmitted to the Bank of England, where it lay, awaiting the distiibution of the Commander in Chief of the Forces and thi'First Lord of the Admiralty, who were to devote it to some charitable purposes connected with the Anis, arid Navy. The sum did not amount to more than £9OOO. Mr. TIERNEY said, that this was not the sum Ito which he referred. He had no intention of in spiting into the receipts of the triumph in the Parks, nbr into the circumstances of that Celebrated ovation. He merely sought information ,as to the distribution of some parts at the general sum of ,C 530,000, which bad been voted for the Civil List. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH was proceeding to inquire into the rea.ons for wfthholciing the accouCts of the Sums due by France, accordin g t o t he T rea ty of the 20jh December ; when Mr. ARBUTHNOT informed him, that the Papers to which be alluded had been laid on the table early in the evening. PROPERTY Tex. Mr. JOLIFFE poseated a tuition from =clue- tee, and one Gas the County Modred of Tendring, in Essex, against lire lknanta' Prlierty Tax and the War Mal t T a x. —Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. HOI,ME SUMNER. rose to present a Rill don from the Parish of Bermondsey against th t Pro perty Tax. In doing this, he owed it, in candour to the Petitioners, to state, that after-the moot :nature consideration be could give this subject, •it was his firm belief, that rio tax could be devised for rising so large 4 sum, which was so litde oppressive in its ge neral character, so impartial in its i.peration, and so inexpensive in its collection-- (Hear, /sear.) Hold ing an *pinion in this respect diffveur from that of the Petitioners, he felt it notwithstanding to be his duty to present their Petition. Sir JAMES MACKIN t'OSH said that he wonid not be appalled by tie opinion of the Hon. Gert:e. man; and fur two reasoos: thr first was, that fie :lad the satisfaction of being enabled to .support a ..on fury view of the subject, on the authority of that Honourable Member's awn constitueins secondly,• on the authority of an Hon. Mc ram r from North Britain, who had filled die office ~ f C ,m -missioner under the Property 'l'ax at Glasgow, and whose opinion was, that the TAX could not be carries into execution. The people felt it oppressive , and t ,ey were probably as good judges of what affect , d theirs is the Hon. Gentleman cou:d be—(Meer, hear.) — He was further consoled in differing with u at Ho nourable Member, by having, in corroboration tit his own opinion, the unanimous voice of the ki igdorn raised to express the abhorrence andaletestai.,n with which the public viewed the continu Axe .4 this ()Jr. ous tax.—(Thar, ;gat . ),-4 US Which was ti.e direct reverse of the description given of it by tioreme. able Gentleman, being both oppressive in s opera. tion, and partial in' as general character; intxpea. sive in its collection it certainly wac, and that ..is the only point in which he couctreei, with the -HO nourable Gentleman. He time.; the }Luke, the grand inquest of the nation into tile e&peoditure at the Crown, would never tolerate an inquisitorial ins. post, which called for the disclosure of private affairs as this tax did, and which created a strong political influence by the latitude it conferred of reducing s o m e returns, and making surcharges in others, without, in any case. the privilege of appeal from the Commis sioners. He (Sir James) preferred agreeing with the universal voice of the cation, rather thin yield his and their opinions to that of the Honourable Gentleman. Mr. SHAW was quite conviuced the tax could nor. be supported. Sir WILLIAM CURTIS presented a Petition from the Tower Ward, and one from Langbourne Ward, against this tax. The Worthy Baronet oh. served, that these petitions contained as strong an expression of hostility to the measure, as could pos. silly be uttered. The Petitioners maintained a stead fast attachment to the Government, during the long course of the late war ; but the fact was, tire people could not bear this tax in the present times.— (Hear). Mr. BROUGHAM congratulated the Ministers on their absence, when this petition was presented. Had they been present, he was afraid their illn:ss would have been a little aggravated. He could not, however, but hope that their colleagues who were present would not refrain from administering to them the comfort which Petitions strongly couched like this, were calculated to afford. He hoped at least they would mention the ,subject. Mr. LUSHINGTON replied, that the Honour. able and Learned Gentleman had omitted to put their memories in requisition, to transmit the vaiu.- .bk and candid sentiments of his Honourable Fianid near him (Mr. Sumner). Sir JAMES SHA W presented a Petition to the same effect from Bridge Ward, and one from the Ward of Vintry. The Honourable Baronet ob served, that but one feeling pervaded ail the Warts of the City of London against the tax. They con ceivede that a direct forfeiture of public t a i t h h a d taken place, and that ao justification could be made for the continuance of a tax, which overwhelming necessity alone justified—now that the circutustanccs which °ritually produced it bad altJgether ui,..p. peared. Mr. CALCRAFT presented a Petition from the Mayor and Inhabitants of Colchester on the same subject. The Petitioners were firmly of opini o n, that if this tax were persevered in, public faith was at an end. it was difficult, indeed, for one who felt as strongly as he did upon the subject, to ex press himself as he could wish. But he would re. fer them to the strongest epithets with 'Lich thin. tax, had any where been branded, and they would then find sentiments pretty near those he held on the injustice of the measure. The battle of Waterloo was to have given repose to the feelings of this coun. try. The conquest of Paris was to have consumma. ted this happy era—and yet it seemed the victory was not decided, and that in that the battle of the people were still to be fought. But if the country held firm, it would be in vaiu to force.this tax against its wishes. Without the people, continuathe Hon. Gentleman, the opposition to this impost may pos.• sibly fail—with them it must succeed. Let them, therefore, not relax in their efforts—let them perse vere in sending forth their petitions against this odious measure. It was well for the' Gentlemen opposite that they had, at length, found one man (Mr. Sum. ner) to express aprobation of this tax. Mr. CHARLES CALVE itT presented a similar Petition from the Inhabitants of the parish of St. Olives. It was, he said, most numerously and re. spectably signed, and by a large class of persons who ,had patiently borne the burdens of the war with a confidence in the ultimate integrity of their Govern ment. They now complained of ill faith, and he (Mr. Calvert) agreed with tliem, that on the 20th of February, 1815 the Chancellor of the E xc h equer had pledged himself to a discontinuance of the Tax at the termination of the war. How had he fulfilled his pledge ?—(Hear, hear.) Two questions had beets put to his Honourable Friend opposite in the course of The evening, which had received a cautious and rather an evasive answer. One Was—what was the principle as which the Chancellor of the Exchequer meant to introduce the question of the Property Taxi! To which the answer was—that the forms of the House could not allow him to bring forward the measure before Wednesday next. The .second Ties. don was—whether he had abandoned the nseasure To this the answer was—that the Chancellor of this Exchequer believed it to be a wise and just measure. Now he (Mr. Calvert) would like to have mr sp . ore diiti/St answer on both these points. [Torts ..