Star. — London, England, 1816-03-05 00:00:00

~: 1 - Mr. WYNNE saisf, he might have been mistaken In alluding to the Case of the increase of pay to Ge neral Officers. But there was one itistdace in winch he *as certain he was perfectly correct; namely, the increase or pay to serjeants. He was perfectly ter. fain that an Order in Council bed been issued during the recess of Parliament, directing the increase of their pay. Lord PALMERSTON—Aa to the increase of eerjeants' pay. he did believe the Honourable Gentleman was right; there had been some slight interference by an Order in Cooncil, but it was in a Very trifling matter, and not by any means consi dered as absolittely decided until confirmed by Pas bament. Colonel WOOD, being one of the unfortunate Members of that Military Club which had been un pccuuntably made the subject of so much discussion, wished to set the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Dic kenson) right. by stating the nature of an institution so much misrepresented. It was certainly true, that there wan a great number of military men in the Club, but then there w.is also a great proportion of Gentle men igi tie naval service in the Club, as originally formed ; and, in consequence of a junction which had lately been effected with another club, the number of lava! men had been so much increased as to bear an eau: poops rtion to those who belonged to the army. But in addition to the junction of these two great branches of the service, (a . junction which he would bare thought calculated to eradicate any disposition In view the Institution with jealousy), there was ano ther class of cificers of whom the Club was composed, towards whom, of all others, it would be almost im possible to entertain any jealous feeling—he meant *thcets who had been in the service of the East India COrnpany—who had,returned from India with consi. doable tOrtunes—and who, having invested their inoney in this country, must be considered as the most interested in the maintenance of those civil esta blishments by which, their property was secured : but besides these, the Club included others, whose habits, dispositions. and principles were such, that they most, be equally incapable of exciting jealousy—for in. Stance, there were many militia officers, no less than Ilurky.six Colpuelsof Militia Regiments, great (Jen. dens, perhaps, by being associated with such a Club, but there they were—(A late, and Near, hear.)—, There were also many Lords Lieutenants of Coun ties. firhe Honourable Gentleman said that this was the only Club from which all persons who were not Of the same profession were excluded: Ent this was quite a mistake : there bad been no less than four Naval Clubs. There were also many other proles. eional Clubs—tor instance, of Lawyers. And there were too Clubs of another kind, very exclusive in mar nature : nay, the Honourable Member whom. n t ett the t'etition was a member of a Club in which . there were not many Gentletnen—(4 //nigh )—He irusted the House and the Honourable Gentleman would excuse the slip which he had made : what 'he meant was, that tke Club to which he alluded was composed solely of persons in the habit of voting in opposition to the measures of Goversunent.—(Cries of naare ! from the Oftjtorite4e.)—He did not wish to mime it very particularly; but perhaps, he would be understood when he mentioned that its members were in the habit of meeting at Brooks's (hear, hear: . ) A got* , deal too much had been said about the Ms lite, y Club. It was certainly desirable that the two great In gnaws of the service, the Army and Navy, should he con.pietely combined, and should have op. sof social intercourse. A near relation of asi H u eursbLe Ggnsicana eppttailt (bk. Winne) - n . _ , o aalb...iimiir4l••••••• .• itT . lttiOilitrations of personal . .cbaraeter, some • An* might object to any inVeuigation of the conduct of Government, .and it might be-mid—Good Got)! can you entertain any doubt of the' future acids of those Ministers who have done so much -for the ser vice of the countrv? This sort of argument could be in any case admitted. He was ready to uphold and admire the personal characters of the members of the Military Club, but he objected In the fo-ma ' lion of such a body of men, from whose, meetings civilians were excluded. He was told, that one of the rules of the Club was, that no political discus sion should be introduced on any account whatever. This was very gotid, but how did he know that some fine day, when a sufficient number were assembled together, this good resolution would not be rescinded. To get itself tolerated, it was easy to pass a resolu tion like that to which he had alluded, with the in tention of subsequently rescinding it, for he did not suppose they would come to Nrliament to get adhe rence to it made obligat. •ry. He objected to such an institution as the Military Club, which would Itrik Op for the countenance of the Crown and the Crawl' alone. l,n 1798, when it was in contemplation to increase the pay of the Officers in the Army, a Mes s_ age was sent down to Parliament in the first instance, before any thing was determined upon ; but in 1814, when a similar increase of pay was thought neces sary, it had been done by an Order in Council, Which Parliament was afterwards invited to sanction. Lord PALMERSTON rose to correct a mistake Into which the Honourabk Gentleman who spoke last had fallen, and which had surprised him a good deal, considering his great knewtedge in emistitu tional precedents. The Honourable Gentleman said, that the last increase of pay to General Officers had Era been made by an Order in Council, and that al. terwards Parliament had been called upon to ac quiesce. Surely the Honourable Gentleman must know that it is nut possible fur any regulation as to the army, to be made by an Order in Council. With respect to the Navy, indeed, the case was somewhat different, and there were instances of regulations at. fecting that branch of the service having been made by Orders from the Privy Council. What the Het. -nourable Gentleman probably meant to state. was this, that some regulation had been made tor in creasing the pay of Officers before the consent of Parliament was obtained. Now for himself he could only state, that during the time that he had filled the office ehich he now had the honour of ocetpying to such thing had taken place; and he should hive thought that he was transgressing his duty it he had made any communic..tion to the Army of an increase of pay until the measure was submitted to Parlia ment, and its consent obtained. This had been done in 1814., when the but incoase of pay had been made to General Officers. 0.1 that occasion he had himself brought down the Estimates, and Lid them on the cable, preparatory to opeong the proposed measure to st t• yrae;fK -r--- 61)etw stamters at ate 114 wag to of whom he might, safely pay, that would be.tlle last to join any association from which there could be ally danger, to the constitatioa. Be repeated, that by the very principles of the institution every thing Political was excluded, and its wieStings were merely for the sake of conviviality. ' Mr. ROSE observed, that after all that had been said, the House would perhaps be surprised to hear that he was a member of this formidable Military. Club— (d lath, and Mar, sitar,) —though it was very well known that he was neither a naval nor a military man ; but be bad received an invitation to become a member of it, from a Noble Lord of so high a character as to be at once_ a sanction for his acceptance of it. It was, of course. on account of the official situation which he held that he had re ceived this invitation, by which he felt himself highly honoured. So far was he from seeing any thing ob- jectionable in the institution, that he thought it highly commendable. There was no novelty in its nature; for Naval Clubs on a similar principle bad lang been established. As to saying that. there was reason to apprehend that some inroad against the Constitution was intended by such an establishment, consisting of naval and military men, it any mischief of this kind were intended by a combination of that class of so ciety. their object might have been equally effected by their calling a meeting for the express purpos!.l without proceeding to establish a Club. Gfrit In. , cnnieilience to the public service had been heard to result trona Commanding Officers on f stations not being personally acquainted ; oid to obviate thus, nothing cowl be better calculated than this Club.— He could not see on what posit;vt e er n , at any thin. ger to the Constitution was to be awl lit 1..:, et hintil the convivial meetings of persons c"uorcied sits the army and navy. Times had been is. wit' , t the COll. stioni 'n had been put in greater danger by Ciutai 0a Lawyers titan it could he ny this institu ion - (Hear ) he had heard with shame and cons:e n attacks which had been made upon this Club. For his own part. he thought it was established f,n an excellent prin ciple—he felt himself bonoinesi being admitted a member of it —he felt warmly interested in its suc cess--and he hoped it would is,lig c , :utinue to a us ish. (Near, hear.) Lord M LLToN, instead of finding that the objec tions to this Club were removed by what had been said. found them increased. It was exclusively cons posea of per, ns in the service of Government, who me: in their official capacity. He understood that the Noble Lord op o usle (i'almerston), in virtue of his situatiou as Secretary at WAN was a member of it; the Right fion.urahle Genthman, too, who spoke last, as haven; what might be called the ma nagement of the Finaticiat Departmeht of the Navy, was made a member of i' Was nothing to be al lowed tor the danger to arise from the influence of i conyany in the meetings of men, who from their habits and principles were already too mach sepa rated fr am the civil clevses of the community—who alt lo•dred to the Crow, tor promotion ? He believed that ultra was not now any club in existence com posed exclusively of Lawycis; but it the Consti.u tion had ever been endangered by a club of lawyers, how .such more mason was there to apprehend that, mischief might :vise trivet an eeclusive asseciaiien of Admirals and Cnnerals f He `did, - est* far thing now, because lie keew the high character of those individuals who now completed-4.g bet it ivai to the principle of the institution that he 'objected; at a time might come when such an establishment might be made the medals of overthrowing,our Con stitution. The Hon. Captain WALDEGRA.Vi sad. thge was ne analegy whatever between the Natial Clubs which had been so long instituted, and this Military Club. The termer generally consisted of halt-pay Officers, who could scarcely be considered is under the Influence of the Crown. General GASCOIGNE thought that though no. thing satisfactory had yet been said in vindication of the Military Club, it would be in hisipower to do away every uaiavourable impression that existed against it.—(LamAer.)—The establishment 6f 'a Military Club was no innovation. So ; far back as the war. in king William's time a clubt of this kiad had been established, under the name 4 the Flan.. ders Club." Soon after a u German Cleb" bad been, formed by the Officers who had served 'in the Amen., -, naigns in th at country ; and afterwards an u Ameri can Club;" in short, he might safely say there were fifteen or sixteen clubs of the same deseription—that was to say, composed of military men, who maw bled to enjoy each other's society, and m talk over' military adventures and exploits. Among the rest, more recently, there bad been the as Holland Club," and the ash Staff Club." Of all these that re. mained in existence, a junction had been effected, and an arrangement had- been made to have the members dine together once a month. But the chief intention of the establishment was, that it should be made useful to halspay officers, who might have a dinner, or what .was commonly as ordinary; at a cheap r.tte, and at the same time a *se of as sort where they could meet their old friends. - This was changed ininwhat had been called Service Club," and included Officers of the avy, litia Officers, and in short, Gentlemen connected with the Army or Navy. But still it was principally for the bene fi t of half-pay of fi cers, » where:.(said the Honourable General), they might have cheap din ner, and meet pool society, l3 .-(4lkgla.),—What had this Club done to deserve the attacks made upon it ? Had anj improper act taken plate in it . I.Surely it would be time enough to raise a cry against it, when any transaction connected with it Could be mentioned, of such a nature as.to excite any jealousy or alarm. There was no reason to suppose that mi.. Uteri men were more under the WSW* of the Crown than any ether class of men. or his own part, be denied that there could be any. man who gave more =blamed attention to the affairs of bu constituents than himself, or who acted more in. dependently. It was a subject on which he: Would challenge any man.4(.4 kigh.—He natant he iwould challenge any man to state that this was not.the.fact. There was nothing in this Club at all connected with politics; and consequently not the shadow.td: !ono ' &dim for what bad been said of its endaageripg the 'Constitution. Mr. BROUGHAM rose amid criesforthequeStion. He said he saw no reason for any long discusitiori on the subject which bad been agitated, at least i Of pre. soile lint as the Hon. General (GareoignoVhad . . . • • ' ".• . • •,i• - - - - . he ti Wi ned wawa of a* thins eattifacto* from ttion. Gentlemen who tad preceded him in the adieus of this tiew Club; even so he found himself after the Hon. General's explanation. (A loug4.) So far indeed• from any thin; satisfactory having been said, he found , caus e o f t r ims regret to the country in what had come out during the discussion. This Club was not 'to be considered alone and as un connected with the other symptoms of t',.- times.— He saw in it part of a gradu .1 progres , i attempt to alter the habits of the country ; an.' iudeed (a% had been absolutely stated on the oth. - side of the House) to Make us mere of.a military nation. IV willing as he was to prolong this co:,versation (as there would be other opportunities for g. ang into the subject) he could not sit down without noticing, t tat influence had actually been used to oidoce diff , reut, persons to become members of this esth. This Or fact was quite sufficient to shew a vet y lively interest WAS taken in its cuncernit, in some coat LA - which did need to he more ii.irticularly named. i-nd further, lie understood 6." to the very quarter a . uded to (in which no doubt f, ~trong interest was taken its she application which i had mentioned, and from wilich no doubt suggestioi.3 or directions were rsceiied to the individuals to whom the applicatio:t should be addressed) —to this vet y quarter a regular return was made of these who gave in their names in accrp. tance of the invitation, as well as of those who refused. He tad only farther to state his surprize that it shoult: have been thought that any pet - mord imputa tati4lll WAS meant against the p articular individuals of 1 whom the Ciub was composed. No man was more ready thins himself to speak forth the praises of the Army—no man had a higher sense of their achieve nviats-T no man could mote deeply ft el the indivi dual merits of the Officers, nor was more sensible cf the great expense of blood, as well as fortune, at which they had so gloriously served their country-- 1 no man was mores •nsible how little was to be feared from the men who had acted such a part. As far as personal security could go, there could be no stronger. He concluded by eulogizing the Noble Lord at the head of the Club (Lord Lynedocb) whom he would be proud to call his friend, and from whom, last of all men, any thing uoconstitutional was to be appre hended. Colonel WOOD begged to be allowed to say a few words be fond mere explanation. There leas— on belialf of the Chill, he wished distinctly to state— not one tittle of lound,ama Ix what had been said by the Honottrahle and Learned Gentleman who had jest sat down, abrAttCM being courted to hecome iviember4, o,nd retorns made to a certain high Personage. \V en any person who was a can didate 'or admiiiinn, w is rejected, or, as it was called, Waci.balled, the person so excluded, of course heard of his rejection. B.it exc(%:t tl.is, there was not the slightest iostodition for what the Honourable and Leareed Geti'lerean had asserted. Mr. BROUGHAM firmly believed that the fact was implicitly as he had stated it. He bad heard it on such authority, fir even after what the Ho nourable Colonel had ssud, he could not doubt that it was the case. General GASCOIGNE said, that neither returns nor commulticAtiolis of any kind were made to any Att trier as to the election of the Member sot the cirrts, excepting tho circulars sent to the &if rent members of the old Clubs which had beet incorpo rated with that in ques.iun. Mr. WESTERN thought that it was incumbent on the H .use to look with jealousy upon such an institution, which bad the Duke of York, as Com mander-in-Chief, at its bead —(Crier of No, which was formed during profound peace, an . O. into which members of the Ad m i n i s t ra tio n w ere adthitted. Mr. GOOCH begged to state, that, in the obser vations he had made, he meant to cast no reflection on the Gentlemen opposite. He merely wished to observe, that the individuals of whom this Club was vompoied, 'were as able as the Members of that H use, so see whether they were doing any thing urectwtstittaiocial or not. Mr. WARD took that opportnnity, lest it might be supposed, from what the Learned Gentleman (Mr. Brougham) had stated, that the Prince Regent was at the head of this Club, to give the most direct Contradiction to that insinuation. Mr. T. FOLEY complained of the terms as harsh sad improper, by which an Hosoaratle Meniber (Mr. Gooch) had characterised .the language in which the Petitioners requested of the House to watch the proceedings of this Club. Mr. GOOCH assured the Hononrable Member, •that he did not mean, by what he had midi to make en personal attack. • The Petition was then laid on the Table. ,Lord qssuuToN presented a Petition front the Inhabitants of Knaresborough, against the Insolvent Debtors' Aeto—Laid on the Table. Mr. EGERTON presented a Petition from the , lity of Chester against the Property Tax..—Laid on the Table.• Mr. WHARTON Pretested. a Petition from the Mshit:ate of Beverley against the Property Tar. Mr. FORBES said, he sincerely hoped, after, _Phi& basi..pissed? that House, on the vetbject---of this Tax, that Ministers, on 'due consideration, would be induced to abandon the measure. If, however, they persevered, he trusted they would be foiled in their attempt. The Petition was then laid on the Table. Mr. METHUEN presented a Petition from the Agriculturists of the Parish of Maiden-Bradley,l pulpits the House to take into their serious conside.' don, the depressed state of the Agricultural Inte rot.—•Laid on the Table. Lord MILTON presented Petitions against the Property Tax; from the inhabitants of Yoram, in the .North Riding of Yorkshire—and from the towns of gisborough and Leeds. On the last.akentioned Petition being brought up, . Lad LASCELLES rose and said, that, though the meeting at which the Petition was agreed to, was regularly convened. yet neither the Mayor, nor any oue of the Aldermen of Leeds presided at it. Al.. though the meeting were . un an i m o us i n P et i t i on i ng against this Tax. yet he had reason to know, that the general sense of the Town WAS not opposed to k; With respect to the main point of the Petition, he would not express any decided op i n i on on it. But 'he thought. in the first place, ilia!, it the Property Tax Were Nnewed,,souse very consider-Al. modifica : lions should be introduced, with respect to tensets.--6 In the aextplAce, it ought to be very muck filtetcd, . , whlk respectto its opera rhin o twi L vov was a numerous bod y o f Lendlorde tern • they had'not resineed their rents, stacre', less, severe loss , s. • It would bea r ettceed .h on them , it the tax were levied, in p ro „ l e! amount if their nominel rentel. tep te r`„ It interest, t•et, required 4 revisi n of th e o : 14 1 though, in prase - Toys tin es, it might noie4te; or inconvenient to call on that /lady to ra - a t closures necessary under the Act, he teas in tr•e present eirctimstence s of the count I se found m sst oppr ess i ve . The blehi e I, expressed his opi n i on , t h at the distresbe, of it 7'' cultural interest mile not be r emedied e, ;e. fic motion in that These. l'iiere we t ' tt il medy.-and th a t was a redu ct i on ,f Liuti he could al we be effect e d by the mr. st . O r. , '• t gld iie;'ne, practised by his Kijesty's hfieest ae , es '`", hear ),—wilich he lied no detest w eild he tr e He bed m ,de th ese few °bele/diens, e e „.. ` 4 ° Ibis infirm •st de of h ea l t h, h e w etld, ro„L_;' unable to attend during the debar s on th eit - 1 , tent topics. Mr. W. WYNN perfectly ite,reed in th e , tion of the Noe le Lord, that the only relief the be air stied, either to the cm:elle...id et agt fil interest, was try a reduction o f taxation, e" • clone be effezt e d by a str ic t attention toe d . the differeet departme nts o f Governmlir e pressed howeve r , f rom t h e N o b le Lord, ettliVl. pressed his opinio n , t h at a system el etos tity I 'll be pursued by Ministers. After sever.:) a: 114 peace, be saw te , attempt at a reductionel t 'i ft those departments where it was nem c.,ilel e : . 'Ll every blanch of G overnment h e observed ap,,,‘• and wasteful exp en di ture , wh i ch the centte - e t r e 'able to support. Mr. PONSONBY was sorry that the fl ott not likely to have the bete fit of the Welt Lett, • tendance on the discussions to which the K... Tax would give r i se . B ut h e celled on estser:. to mark the nature of the Noble Lord's objeti ti it. Tne Noble. Lord objected to the tax en a because their circumstances wouij not enable th en pay it—he objected to the tax touc:iing a g nat: her of landlords in the country, because, i t h i. , levied, it would be unjust aid inierilat— Q4 stated, that it nuiti.t not t i operate on cuisine men, because, though in times of prosperity na l be proper for them to make the necessary clikl a yet such a proceeding, at preseet, would bee:. vous. If these bod:es were exempted !rein th ee ration of the tax, he shoal he gi.id us knot Was to pay ;t, or by wh It means it was ti k dered benefi -ial to the Treasury ?_(//zee, bar) Lord MIL.TON said, althoueh the Nob.elA t a not, in expe ss terms. state his hominy to might fair; t - he inferred, fro:n.his ober vistise, he del no. approve of it. Tne Nettie Loil • stated, the . a respectable Magistrate had ere, el the Meetin , at L e..•. 15, and eipresed his ripies . the petition sp. Ice t' c ;tenet a! sent;ments of tk habitants .f thet town. It was net nun* . signed, hu that circumstance was accounted fa the ehortne•s of the time winch the petitioterski prepare th• it representation. The peitien re carried about for signatures, hut was Lett la or two, at -the Itotetiors Offer., aria ataite 'house, for that purpose. l• On the niotten of. Sir THOMAS BARING, new writ was ordered for the Bis..u g h et Lerre,' the room of A. Kemp, Esq. who has accepted • Chiltern Hundreds. Mr. P. GRENFELL nvred, nosiest° notice early in the eveneig—eTit it there be We • tote the House copies of .el Correspondeee did took 'pleice between the Commis sitreei s for the slies , Of. Taxes, and the firm o f Weli ams end GOA , on the subject of the Property 'rat, (Jewett! felt May, 1815, and the Ist Febrility, 006, togv#l with copies of the enclosures referred to - thee:rale and also copies of the correspondence which place between the said firm and tile Cernmittei General Purposes, from December, 1815, to Fri* cry, IBIS."' The CHANCELLOR 4 the EXCHEQUIt thought the notion unnecessary, he could not wok object to be obtaieed by the selection of initial cases. Mr. P. GRENFELL stated that he had new mer occasion commented" upon the oppressive cold* of the Commissioilers Ca- the Affairs r.f . Tans, u his object in moving for this correspondence sus verify his assertion, aozl to adduce 3 ties!' erg against the Property T sr. Toe motion Was then agreed to. CIVIL LIST. l • Mr. BENNETT w i s h e d to i nqu i re f rom the 1 Honourable GLlttleman opposite, whether he brought down the Papers relat;ve to the Civil which ought to have been some time past ham* House ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUU ° replied, that he was aware the Act ot Patlused had not been cornplb , d with i . ..y tl:e de ty w;:ich tot place. But in jJstitication ot this delay he ber state, that it w a s th e p ract i ce ol t h e B oar d el .4.1. to have their expenditortn:•ckect, by a stiitistirwl of the accounts. In other departments the am practice was observed, wnd some time was On e " thy required before the accounts could be WHO Parliament with proper accuracy. The who 'however, nearly made up, and the Lord Sussed% Department was the only one in arrear. in akg days be hoped they would bellaid on the table of House. SUPPLY. On the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQP moving that the Order of the Day be read. House resolving itself into t'he Committee of Mr. W. WYNNE rose, irr pursuance of the airs lie bad given, to move that tht Commit eett structed to make a provision fcr the maintemioce 4 the British army now serving in France. li waif* dent, be observed, that t he i ns t ruct io. i s should pr 4 their going into the Committee; and in pr.s):as adoption of his opinion, it would be needle's !orbit to dwell long on the subject ; for if any one colistitel tional mazint was more imperative than aim tr 1114 country, it was, thit 'mein co;.tro..l:d tbt army of the nation, and picyrnic.t its re•ceivicg ..her pay than' that it co:dared. et , e danger of an armY noetieFnd.ini up!ai was the adcl.tionat power it con, erred urn diet:WM The lo:ai simition in which this :trilby stool w. 4 4 very material consideration. Whether at Caliis et w . tf in len: be 6 *ll C 1 •red P s rul K SUL ~ttai. K SI Doi 1%. 14 der r it ma that r p et I Rtg _._!.. a. I 0 C !Y IM