Star. — London, England, 1804-04-13 00:00:00

on, between the advancement . of the fataries of the bilh civil officers alluded to and the payment of thole Ldaries at par, or the remuneration of them fur corn iog to thiscouotry, as tke Noble Lord had termed it. The Noble Lord mull admit that old. of Brains currency was equal to toot. of frith currency, and yet lc argnid that the officer who received toot. of the former, adieud of tool. of the latter, obtained no addition to his income. Really the dillinaion was lo fingular, that he could not without furprife bo o r the Noble Lord ferioufly maintain it. But the Noble Lord had Rated that this payment at par was only a teleafe from tax; but wasnorfuch a releafew he would ark, as effeansl a way ofpuonenting an officer's fa )cry as any other that could be.conceived ?. If Parlia ment were to relieve. any defcriptiop of ofgceri from the operation of any particular tar in the country, bow would it be ondernood but as an inereare of die tdaries of fuch of ? The exemption:lmm any iii..oic burthen could imply nothing different, becaufe ohvioully it mull have the eteft of advancing a man't. revenue. If, faid the Skisle Lord, lrifh officers were called here by their fuperiors to eieente their public duty, it would be thrjudi that theyitould Atter any Usßut who were the officers to whole (aperient ;lluded ? Who was the. foperipe that was to order the attendance of the Right Hon. Gentleman on the either fide (Mr. CorrY)f - Ifii &fey at a Member of i Parlianient Could alone fonder his prefetwe in this 1 "pantry necegary. With refpea to the late Lord Chancsllor, what necatty of a public nature called 1110 Ever to thii, country at the time he received bit 16Hrfif par ?. the Nolle'Lord coniefted thit he did mot knertrerf any, and indettit wits tbareely'pnelble. -to ;itemise any rearm? that Monte bring him here. Which upon even the grounds laid down by the Noble • Lord hinsfelf, could: entitle that officer to claim the allowance to which the refolotions before the Houfe Weeded. If the NiSisle Lord hid in his mind any -team for the stridence of that 6fficer in N. eoentryi ayly not•ftate it ? 'What could be* an Irilh Judge to ride here ? The bufinefs of Anil a man, piste jade, I.i tp freland, This remark applied alto to the court *l-fbr the Constailßoneri s of the revenue, and to other officers mentioned in the account on the table. The duty of thofeperfons to attend their plates in Portia. „went could never be pleaded as a radon for grantinti them the extraordiiary allowance which provoked . this debate. He could never patiently hear it even litruktated, that, while the Country Gentlemen of Ire land were, by .their attendance On their Parliamentary; duties, cubic° to all the difadirantagfes °Cumquat exchaage, &e. the officers of Government. the :rer- 1 wants of the Crown, as they are s termed, thould be ! foideninified; fhould have a remuneration for coming TO England—that the one fhould have Temethinphe?! Weft bnareltitt to flay away, While the'other thWed ! ,lave on encouragement to attend: If Mehl; fyllem4 or language approting it, were to be countenanced ' , IMat only the sluice of the Cnnitltntion aas gone, bat , All decorum or regard for as forma Ara limit mutt be exacta. If the late Lord Chancellor had come! here, according to. onion from his fropericoothae! fuperiorrnun be his M4etty. and. what nacetfity he could have for li keeper of the Itids feats it was. not eafy to di.in v , however:it he bad any. it mutt bd a (pecial cafe, and it ought to be Rated. If the Husk were to decide upon the affords* of the Noble Lord. 'that the bilk Chancellor, had nn doubt fume good realms fur his refidence here, that_ kind of argument • Would go the leugtly of junitymg any appropriation of the public money oflreland to the fame way to any favourite of the Lords of the hint Treafury, who might refide in this country, and this upon the fappofition and copie:ture that he hada good reafon of opublic nature andfor.C4public ince reit for corning. If it were propored that soy . ocers of an inferior Tank. who { could clue to this country from Ireland. flotilla be recompenfed for extra trouble and expenee. ?e wound readily accede to the propolitios. but not an the way which had . been purfued, itt the inliance then under confideration, by the Lords of the frith Treafury. It had been Rated by the Noble Lord, pat the Lords of the Treafury in this country were in the habit of exercifing a limilar diferetion with regard to our military officers (erring on foreign Ill tioas ; but he hoped not without the ei•nfent at Par liament, without fubmitting fuch allowance to the 1 confideration of that Hoare in the Army Extraordi aaries. If not, they too had forgotten that old word, refponfibility. As to die aftertion, that half pay officers on the I rifh Eflablifhment were not ern- .ployed in any public department in this country, he knew the contrary to be the fan, in ferinal inflames, as infpeßing officers, &c. and yet they had no remorse-1 ration fuch as the civil officers received. It was faid, they had no clam to inch remuneration; but had they' not the fame precenfion to it as the late Lard Chancey for of Ireland? He was allowed four ihnufand poitods a year,as an indemnity for the lofs of the place of the breaker of the bill' Houle of Lords, which, in conic evence of the Union, he had no longer to attend. It appeared that while refident it this country he waspaid at par his half pay refulting from this office. Why not then, upon the fame ptine:ple, make the fame tt..........c iv uilisas half pay atfiearc I [ 41a i :A ] !I the principle were fu extended it would be much more honourable to the frith Government, though he would not admit that it would be feemly or con Ilitntional to grant any fuch allowance at all but by the previous confetti of Parliament. If any recoune• ration were deemed necelfary to the Civil Officers of the trill Government employed in confequence of t'.: inadequacy of their falarics, the Noble Lord what the enaament of the Union hid manifelled fuch a c .iiiplete knowledge of proicias of indemnities, arJ h.. 4 :hewn no very niggardly difrifition in dittribu t:isg them, fhould fubmst a propolstiisn to that Haute %oh relpea to their cafe ; and there would nn doubt he found the fulled tcadincli to extend their filaries as fir as any reafonahlc man could desire. The cafe of the repeal of the Abfenrces Tax, quoted by the Ruble Lord, did not appr sr to him to he at all ono. tionus to the it:trilled , it hcforc the Houk, becaufe. In the one talc, a tan was removed which was levied upon a nun lir living in England, while in t:.e other • donut is given to a :r.ars coming to live in I.'lP:And, and this &dm/ iledt.;ed nom the revenue of lieland. nil was a very ni..tcrial clii;:.re:..ce. The frith O. Frets who remain,d in Ir-i sod had wiosl caiife to complain of the is ••s c it's: of ild-.., .chore th..rn, which Atl , 1,.. , rc.:s r' :ains . e.'... s c..'7.-.• to It::.:. in It:;. n :•:pt sccra, to indoce tiie 1-nr,l, of the T,e,f..l:y t.. conceAl it but t!:: Subic Lad :C:mc.,lt4 t::—: Lvk the Lords of the Treafury were dueled to difcharge the demands of alt claimants nn Treafury befog they attempted to drzw their own Calories, and yet from the papers an the table it appeared that the Lords of the Treafury paid thensfelves fire--even before. they fuffired the money to go to the Irith Treafury. This eircumaance afforded a reafon why the praCtice to which the refolutioni before the Houle referred lloodd be concealed, at lean that it &mild not be eapafed if poffible. Under.all the cit.. cumltances of this queftion, the Honourable Mem ber laid, that inquiry fhould be made as to the jot • tiee orthectiim of every perfon who had profited by this praitice, and . this without a complete aban. doormat' of damp ettrold not, in hi: opinion, be over looked. Ha (humid therefore affent to the motion of his Noble Encore, and recommend cathode interthed to apply to alit Houk for any reeonspence for their ' (crakes they thought themfelves entitled to, or any indeintsity for is es they might &Raiff. ,The 'QH.*NCELLOIC of the gXCHEftti)!i R . entered into satiated of the-rate of Exchange, and Maintainefl t that upon Ilse principles of the Goa denten .oppoffie, the Offiters conneaed with Ire land Muff fitter u confiderable lots ; for inffead of receioing oat for the fool* they would only receive Upr-tt this principle HA in this country, In regard to the =catty of the attendance of thbfe Gentlemen here, bis Honourable Friend, he had no doubt, oho had already explained the bufinefs, would be able tt (here' very g , d grounds. The pertain who had been abided tolled -May drawn certain furni for their fob. fillence in this country, in proportion to their period of livingliera. Some of them, .indeed. had : not re ceived To much, and the officers of an inferior de fcription, he thought, might at an events be allowed their travelling expences. • Mr. JOHN LA COUOHE (upporeed the Motion of the Noble Lord. He thought that the fcrvants of Government ought no to enjoy an advantage of this kind over other fubjeas. rn a time, when fi om a variety of citentnflaneet a depreciation had taken place, and calamity to a' certain -extent, thofe who in the opinion of many, hard contributed to that ca lamitt, fbould not, be alone exempted from its ope ration. • . . Mr. WINDEf AM could not underflind the force. of the IVlttielltS Made ore ofron the oppnfite fide -of the Kook. He harfalways undertlood, that to Market a ,afar,, wat the fame thing as to add a }deft. = It Theme; luiwever t to be a matter of new and difficult calodation, tnd all olifrules of arithmetic. ' on .thole tremstion matters were to be had afide. But, however, he could not be brought to believe, that to take off et preffehe *as not to brae& the perfon from %Alba it was. removed. The Kind* at re- ; animaratiosa eftwoltiffes Oldie fluintiotts, was on e which Illogid be seceireeloand adteduprin with great care and cireudifpation. In :many eafes,perfons took their fitoations under the• anticipation of thefe circumllanres it tonld not thermal:we be every cafe of this nature that called for rennuteration. • It was not to be /appoint,. even if the.Chancellnr were to come over here, by fpcciol command, that he (hould' appear in Ansa framterir to rlPLandahis remuneration: whereas it did not appear that•be.had any fuch rot-. fon. , A clafs of perfons. %vitae duty was of firth a ,nature as to render their refidence, on either fide, in `a cotton; degree,, optional, Would be fitter objefis for loch componfation ; but it was not Co with the ' Treafury, and mony other offices ; they were quite of a dittesent nature. The gentlemen employed , ' there, could not carry their buficiefs about with them..l They could not tranfaft their own bufinefs in another' place. They were like the man in the Rory, who could not blow his own fire in another man's honfe. ' He wanted a pair of bellows, and went to borrow one of his friend, who wanted them himfelf, but told him-he might come to his room, and ufe them : " Aye, but" Pays he, a I can't blow my own fire at - your book." The MASTER of the ROLLS obferved, that the Noble Lord had laid down a pmpofition in his mo. tion, which was of a general nature : but that all the other Gentlemen who bad followed on that tide had departed from the general principle he had Hated, and made particular dininetions. He should not enter i ito the neteffity arifing from any parti cular initance. He could fee nothing in the removal of any Gentleman from Ireland to England on the bufinefs of his office, that ought to operate to the diminution of his &Ivy. When he was called here he had his duties to difcharge, and he ought to have the full amount of his (glary, the fame as if he had remained in Ireland. Upon the principle attempted to be ethablifhed, perfons concerned in Eall India affairs might be fent to Calcutta to receive their fa ' laries. So that if a perfon were ordered to go to York, and could not get his friary from London, but at a great erpence attending the transfer, he was to he a fufferer ! Bin what was exchange but the expence attending the transfer of money ; and why Arnold the civil officer Inflain that expence, if he did not voluntarily Ibift his refidcnce Thr Learned Member then proceeded to (hew that the cafe of half pay did not apply in the ;indent inaance. Aug. mentatinn of Glary, he admitted, would be unjulti fiolile, but that w s vattly different from the mere payment of the fame identical Calory, only on a different (pot. Dr. LAWRENCE argned that fuels payments were made without any conititutional authority. and therefore, independently of their equity, he found himfelt called on co oppofe the general principle.— The Learned Gentleman contended particirlatly that the proportion Hated by the Right Hon. Gentleman oppnfite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was by no means obfcrved, it any credit might he given to the paper, on the table. The Learned Melo/ here turned up an article where Mr. Wickham had re ceived an order to draw his Wary in this country to any amount, not eft ceding the whole for the year, which was four thotrand five hundred pounds.— From loch an order he argozd any perfon here notch' receive tl e Wary, and trattfmit it to Ireland at fo much addiiinnai ;•to.it. He laid confiderable firers on the periods ne.:allory for their refidence in this; country, and that their payments might be made and really were made, as appeared from the papers befiire them, wit:itatt reoard to the proportion or Ile ., cellity of fuch p rods. 'floe CHANC:ILLOR of the Elia, that had tne Lotrecd Gentleman. io adverting to what he 1.4, caarniocJ t. cafe of Mr. Nv01..-diarn. lie w•aildhumid t: ,e very r-.m, Crewed Wry slid au: warms.: ci..raluicato la caz: I ; would Lave round that the credit was to brevet! Itt the rale of 43601. and at pages he would have ken that his predeceffor drew unly the fmalier loan of acusd. Rated as paid in +BO3, but that included the total of two years ; not, however, brought forward till 1803. He did not believe that Mr. Wickham was a perfon likely to depart, in that refried, fcom his predeceffor's example. Dr. LAURENCE and the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE(VER explained. . Lord HENRY PETTY laid, that the general principle of remuneration was not now before the Houle. Who were the proper judges of the equity of the compenfation ? Parliament. Who had made themfelves the judges of it ? The objeas of it. He thought that the Chancellor could not be the proper perfon to be remunerated for coming over to Eng land ; and if fo, the Treafury had abided their power, and the Houk ought to take up the dike fion of the fubjei ferioufly. Mr. FRANCIS laid that, among many weighty arguments which determined hint to sow for the original motion, there were two, which he withed particularly to Rate and infift on, becaufe they were of a plain and obvious quality, and not liable to be perplexed and confounded by technical (kill or fo phidical dillinaions. To tittle, Sir, I expect to hear a plain and rational anfwer, which hitherto has not been attempted. In the fiat place, Sir, I hold it to be a principle infeparable from the ufet of all Go vernment, and from the duties of this Government more than any other, that the perfonal intereß of every individual trulled with power Ihould in all cafes be one and the fame with the interea of the community. If a general calamity fixodld vial, or a general liurthen is to be endured, to the remedy or relief of which the labour, the industry and the (kill of perfons in high office ought , to be unremittingly applied, it is not wife, it is not fate to exempt fueh perfons from their fhare,in the general pre Pure or fuffering tljat falls upon all the red. You take away a principal motive oriiinsului to fuch perfons to exert themfelves in the public fervicc when you tell them that, whether they neglea their duty or not, they are lure to be borne harrtslefs in the receipt of their own income. Leal of all, is it prudent or fide so Puffer fuch parties. to form thytteafore and to diftri bore the amount of their own relief ? But, even if the Contrary were ttue, if it 'could he maintained that parlous in high and lucrative tailless ought to be fp:eially and exclnfively exempted from any &are in a public fuffering, 'Rill the courfe which has been taken ought not to be endured. It is, aliened that the payments in quetlion have not been fetid—have not been clandelline. My anfwer it, that they have been made not only without the authority, DM with out the knowledge of Parliament. for elm never heard of the fad, until it was introduced by the No ble Lord on this fide. If the thing be proper, it ought to be done by a vote of this Hook or in tome other regular Parlramentary way. Whenever the general principle of reirnburfing individuals for loffes no exchange of falaries comes to be otinfidared s you will have other cafes infinitely more prang to pro. vide for. I (hall Rate only one; which I think could hardly be refined, and which has freqoently occurred: I mean that of an Englith regiment dilbanded 4n Ireland, and of which the officers, all Englifli, are compelled by their fituation, c.ircomflances, and con. nations, to refide in England on their lri(h half pay. Out of that pittance they Joie ten per cent. on the remittance from Ireland. Would you refufe to in demnify fuch perfons, while the principal Officers of Government are permitted to reimburfe them. felyes out of the public pork. Now, Sir, I afk for information on a point of parliamentary conftrudion, in which I think the honour, becaufe I am lure the duty of this Hoare, is effintillly concerned. Sup pofing the motion of the Noble Lord fhould be let elide, with fuch fs6ts brought into the view of the Houle, and fo immediately conneded with our firtl duty as guardians of the public purfe, and that this Amid be done by an expedient fo difgraceful, and I believe hi Inch a cafe fo unprecedented, in the pro ceedings of Parliament, as that of moving the Or der of the Day, in what Pate wilt this Winds be left? Will it not be concluded that the Houle re nounces its duty, and abdicates its jurifdidion over a money queftion ? Will it, or will it not be takeo by the parties who have hitherto aged in their own behalf, by their own authority, for an acknowledg ment of the power they have In Olmsted ? What is to check or to limit them in the future curdle of that difcretion, when Parliament, with the cafe be fore them, refutes to inquire into the pall, or even to lay down any rule for the future? Certainly the Gen tlemen who have taken good cafe of themfelves, may aft with more referee, and ler, indulgent to the claims of others full as gond as their own. Or they may chute and tiled the objefts of their favour. I ark, is it fit that loch a quettion Ihould be left un decided ? In fart, I fear it will amount to a decifinn in favour of the abufe, and furnifh a pretence for other pradices of the fame nature. When a Houle of Commons refutes to inquire into an uaauthnriled application of public money, and when the I aft is not denied, it gives an approbation to the thing done, and makes it a precedent fur greater abufes. Mr. HENRY THORNTON thought the zeal of the Gentlemen oppufite carried them rather too far. The fad appeared to be, that Gentlemen had not been paid any more than their fabrics amounted to. Had Government paid them in hard money, which they had a right to dn, they would not have given them more. He law no offence againft equity in the wan faCtion. Mr. BARHAM thought the tranfaaion a dikre dit to Government, far greater than any advantage to he gained by it. Mr. FOS FER had often obeerved in the cootie if' his parliamentary life, that ss lien Gentlemen had no good grounds to refit upon, they ran to glntral principles, which teemed to be the cal: to.nignt with the Honourable Member appolite. But it was fo thinna . il , to 'recur to general prirtiples, he fhould beg to mention one, namely, that no money 16x11 be ed a atria coming to Parliament for it. It had b:en proved, that this money had not hero I-gaily The papers (Reared, that one Commiili user had or• tiered the illue, and that it had been paid accord!ng ly. Every him fobtraned from the public puree ss•s in taelto much espence incurred. Thc N.,bl ; L rd had laid, th , 111;41 treallit y v.as in I -9,10 n ; but dil ane body that had rca.l ti: Xl4 of NfliAlre"l to m +in ignorant that t U".l , necc(Ti!y to ha• , - tt I . , t i manual. 01 an As of ratliAm2.4l ,~ au • • diorite en Me ? Was t he Or _firtetelo kV t hia tratfationl The Noble Lard beefed artitt , it Aa of Parliaarent wee an opesoff traofaikat, that is to fay, drat to as lwally was an opeenfetmaradlias, whereas, to add it legally, made &d'art att. and fo the Noble Lord cbofe to run poll hale to the Totafory in London. All the revenues. of Ireland were, ince the Union. applicable, in the &It inflame, to the payment of the National Debt ; and fecoodly,iothis general porpofin of that cavalry. If Minittere could thus pay officers, it would never appear how Ireland was tubjefted to the expenees ; whereas. if the thing . wasi done legally, fifteen feveateentbs of the money would be paid by England. He called upon Minillers to treat rbi's goer nn like men, in a manly manner toconfefs they had done art illegal att. Let than go into a Committee, but not blink the quettion.. If orherwife, let them now have their majority if they. could, but let them depend upon it, that this quettion would come before them in fo many (baps., the they mull meet it at Lift. Lord CASLEREAGH role to explain, and was proceeding to reply to force obfervations of the lath fpeaker, when he was called to order by Lord FOLKSTONE, who infirted that die *Mr Lord was not fpeaking to order. bet is reply. Mr. FOSTER 01:skived, that the Coonfel of the Gammiffioners of the Revenue hacl.a computation of 750 pounds at the 'Union for his Glary of modal year, and that he found he hadreceired sisol. within a period of direr- years. ' Mr. ORMSBY, at confiderable length, entered into an explanatioa of the fubjel alluded to by Mr. Fofier. He (hewed, from a variety of inflances, that the Treafury had a power to ifue orders over money . of the Crown, before it came intorthe Extheer, particularly in Ireland, in the cafes of the marchinu guineas to the Militia, and the acquittances to the army. Colleaors were often forted to pay Raney before it could come into the Exchequer. It had been obferved by an Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Pox that 'he did not fee the abfolote neceffity of die Irtlbehan cellor of the Exchequer coming to Loader's. What fell from that Gentleman, certainty deferred great .attention; but he was much furprifed to bear thee affertion, to refute which he thought it area coastal& to reltate it. He made a variety of other obfeivatioas in fupport of Lord Caltiereagh's motion for the Order 4 the say. Sir LAURENCE PARSONS thought there tees nothing, in his mind, unfair nor inequitable in the principle of paying to the bid' Civil Officer her, the fame tuna that be would have a right to claim in Ireland : and with repea to the contrail esercifed by the Irifh Trcafury board over money ie trayars from their Co)leaors, qr in loans borrowed for the public fervice of Ireland in this country, be ander good it was conftantly the prat:lice, nutlet the kin Chancellor of the Exchequer for that country, and therefore it was to he prelumed a legal right exified. Mr. T. GRENVILLE (poke at Tome length in approbation to the arguments in favour of the origi nal areftion t and efpecially what had fallen from a young Nobleman on the fame bench with him (Lord Henry Petty). of %chafe talents the Houle bad al ready Witreffed tome brilliant fpecimena. and whore arguments upon the queftion of this night were to clear, firong, and irrefragable, that he would not run the rifle of weakening them, even by endeavour ing to repeat them. Having silo applied hinifelf &only iu teply to what had fallen from the Mailer of the Rolls, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Thornton, and the Chancelior of the Exchequer, be came finally to the fhort fpeech of the Hon. Member who had jog. fat down (Sir i.aurence Farina), who, he Paid, bad brought the quettion to a point ; for he had alerted, that the Officers of the bah Govemtnent had a legal right to jut the payments alluded tn, in the manner they had done. The very contrary was Ranted by thole who had fpoken in favour of the refohniaa of the Noble Lord. The point, therefore, was fairly at iffue, and he trolled the Houle would come to a manly and fair divifirso upon the original motion, and not blink the queflion by deciding it on the mo. tion for the Order of the Day. The ATTORNEY GENERAL replied at tome length to the rillrefent arguments which had beenurged in fupport of the Refolutioos. Hs complained that it was unfair for one Gentleman to fay that there was fallacy in an argument, and another Gentleman to fay that no argument had been advanced. No one petfon had pretended to fay that there was a great hum of money funk, tquandered, or applied to impro per ufes, and that therefore it was evident that his Majefly's tenants had aged from a corrupt and dirty motive. He had no doubt, that it the principle was admitted, and that it was Rated that one or two pet tons had, by mitiake, been included in the pay ment who were not entitled to it—he had no doubt that then the Noble Lord oppntite to him, who had fpoken with to much ability won:d be fatisfied as to the propriety of the conduit of Miniiters. The kith nation had funds in this country in confequence wf the intimacy which fabtitied between the two iflands; and would any nre fay that, when they had a public officer en bufinef, here, the money fhouid not be paid her: to that Officer, but be fent back to the Treafury of behind, tp do that mighty piece of inflict of putting money in the public purfe at the espence of the individual ? As no cafe of inquiry appeared to him to be made out, h.: votrfor the Order of the Day, as :!;.: mr.ft Pat ii.meutary and realms ble courfe of pr.-cce.• Sir J. NEW FOR I' declared that his main objec tion was to the money not being left at the siitisofal of Patliamsr.t. No matter wh. • the turn was, the principle ar.:ts the Lime to Pailiament, and Tie was turprifed to Ire.!t a Iti r ia Hon. and Learned Gertle. man oppofite to him (ale A:tot:ay G.:nerAl) fay, that the mud Parliamentary way of ailing was. for the Houfe to proceed to the Order of the Day. Lard A. HAMILTON laid, the expreffions of tome Hon. ?stem' era had Leen rtj:ded to. But the Houle woilid re,,.11,1t, that he h••I slilrted that the act in mei( %.1, 1.1 : iZgal; na pert.n 1)4.1 centrc.ver. ted that. An oh,, i oa n had lKen made, that a for •ant lhould he p iii, trareililig espencts. hut them wAs no atp,int n: that. as no peri; , n rave in Each An estimate as travelling espciice, t ,, PAiliament, and it that %is, to he ur zed apa....1 any , :rr, no une could l.sy but that tra, vro., • Lad f , .en paid be nd:!,7 money to the amount, it indeed Ns t.) 7, iti:r 1 , c1471.1 for el.: olf reJa (lure %At a AC) 111 It 4 1 ! . .11 went rzw ; bet rArt fay the Oihzos t 4 t: .L p al i c lc the fame