Star. — London, England, 1804-06-12 00:00:00

Lord TEMPLE rnfe to (peak to order. He did :not think ang Member jallified in making fueh a •iolent attack or allnfion to, the motives which might aauate any Member in regard to the fentiments he might think proper to otter in that Hdufe. The SPEAKER here interfered, and laid, that it , wascertainl7 out of ordcr to attribute any paternal motives to any Member in the courfe of the %filen& Gan. Mr. MoNAUGHTON then proceeded, and had faid but a few words fomew•hat in his former ltrain, Sir WM. GEARY and Sir WM. YOUNG. fere rally (poke to order ; the farmer of whom aid, it %A$ one of the ',ilea innitution4 of our ancefinrs not to permit a bad report to be circulated to the preju dice of another, in confeguence of any tiling having been Paid in that Houfe. The latter Paid, that if the Hon. Gentleman was allowed to date his oppofition to this Bills to be fittlious, it was throwing impedi. ments in the way of debate, a liberty which was ef fential to the freedom of the Conftitution. Mr. M'NAUGHTON then concluded his fpeech by giving his warmeft fupport to the Bill, Colonel CRAUFORD then rote and laid, that be was one who bad always ez,ireffed a defire to in creafe the regular army by every proper Means ; but be could not bring himfclf to approve of the prefent =dares, Whether he looked to our fituation at home, as liable to a dirett attack frnm the enemy, or carried his view beyond the limited horizon of fecu rity, fo as to bring this war to an honourable and glo rious conclufion, by reducing the power of France, fo as to make it impoffible that the could any longer difturb the repofe of Europe, he felt it perfeBly and abfolutely neceffary that we Mould take more effec tual means for increafing our Regular Army. His motive for opppfition was, that lie being a warm advocate for the army, taw that the plan pot:poled would not be the means of adding one tingle man to it. He walled to fare the army from being recruit ed by fuch means. Although he had all along oh jelled to the conftrutsion of the Army of Referee, he had always agreed to the principle of ballotting.— The plan now, however, was to be much more op preffive and venation: than the former ballot .If his Majefty's Minifters were at all difpored to adopt tome plan for increafing the Regular Army, it was to "do away all competition which interfered' with its to remove all idea of binding for life, and to bet ter the general condition of the army. Were Govern ment to turn their minds to fuck meafures, and hold forth Inch inducements, it would be wholly unnecef fary to have reeourfe to any compulfory means few recruiting. Were ever fuel means to become at all neceffary, he was lure that they mush refembled a military confeription, fuels as that adopted by Rains fPruirsa,. France, and Auftria ; but which Goo forbid we &told ever have occafton to think of. He meant a ballot, accompanied with very high penalties. and upon• fuch a footing as would prevent all affociations from being able to avoid it by any kind of infurance. Even in the extraordina ry fituatiou in which ire now were, no fah compul key means were reguifite. We were, however, to look entirely and folcly to the voluntary zeal of the Country. The conlideration of the immenfe in creafe of the power of France, by its military con. Imiption (which enabled it to carry its army to an amazing extent), certainly made it neceirary for to to put coercive' upon a very regular footing. What. ever compulfion might be neceffary for that pur ple. he would not be an advocate for carrying it further than to veil the Crown with power to compel ether men, of a certain age, to train themfelves to the ufe of arms, and in cafe of an attack, to array them in any manner mutt effetlual to repel an ene my. This fhould be done by the prerogative con ferred by Parliament ; but it fhould not be in their power to draw a perfon (however low his fituation in life might be) beyond the diflance of five miles from his home, at any period, except upon inrafion. He had heard it raid, that there was nothing of cons- Felon upon the face of the Bill. It was true, in deed, that if carried into execution, without abort, it would not compel any man to go into the army againd his will; but. there is a fpecies of cmpullion me upon the individual but upon pantiles, by the fire to be jowled for what they could not effett. It wpuld tall molt generally upon thole pat Mu' deferving of reward rather than of punifhment. All thole pa tithes where the great landed properties exerted all their Influence for the public good, would afford the fewell recruits. It was laid that you mutt, however. fubmit to all thefe inconveniences, as they will ad ranee the increafe of the army. He could not fee any advantage whatever likely to arife from it. It was thouylit that it would thereby intereft a great numbrr of people in recruiting the army, and that even the landed intereft would find their advantage in endeavouring to avoid a fine. There were very few parts where the landed intereil had the power of inducing men to enter into the army, except in the Northern :arts of the kingdom, and there it was not a paltry fine that would operate as an inducement, but the influence they had over their vaffals, tenants,. and people furrounding them. Such meafures would rather tend to difguft the landed interell in dick parts, sad prevent them from Wing their ordinary cam lions. It was Paid that the more recruiting that took place, the more recruits would be found; and that the prefent regular army could not pollibly be extend ed fuffieieutly conailent with our fafety, fo as to have a recruiting party in every parifh. If rewards were attually to be given, was there no other perfon fit for the pnrpofe but a penal officer ? Though a man night be an excellent parish officer, it did not fol low that he would be alio an excellent recruiter.— Notwithttan4ing sU that had been faid about crimps, et men who made recruiting their trade, he was far from wilding to fee that deletiption of people abo lifhed. On the contrary, he would with to fee them greatly increafed, out fent upon fuclt regula tions (by licence or otherwife), fo as to have them under the power eft Government, and prevent the abufes that were aferibad to them. They would he better recruiters than parish officers, and wool! not tic looked upon with filch jealoufy by the Magi firate. He would next proceed to confider what ' was the real Life of thole men when railed for the 1 Regular Army. Nothing but dirt neceffity could ever induce him to (analog the pi efent Bill, becaufe be could not confider it but a fy nem of inveigling men into the army. He begged Gentlemen would remark the fituation of there men. He was an ad 'tome for recruiting the Militia, but there men were iu a diderent fituation. tie would rather ireernit from the Militia than approve of the recluetion of it. He difapprnved of the plan of having firli and fccond battalions conjoined in the manner fuggelted. It was putting the men under officers who look to one of the batt4lions with jealoofy. being much more defirous for the welfare of the firft than the fecond, and with the men to quit the fecund in order to join the firft. There would be thus tao,oob men enjoying all the advantages of the Regular Army without going out of England. What were the motives which induced men to Join the Regular Army ? It was either that a man liked the idle life of a folffier, and the drefs, which attratit the notice of every village Jr enters, better than the labour of fol lowing the plough or say other occupation. Ano ther martin was, tempor..ry diftrefs, occationed by' men being thrown out of bread. A third reafon was a pure ardent military fpirit, which was the moll honourable and praifewdrthy of the three, but which he imagined produced fewer men than the other two taken together. When a man could for merly gratify his vanity or relieve his diarefs, by going at once into the Regular Army, he would now prefer going into this lime dfrirty inftead of entering into a more extended fervice, had fuch an army not exifted. Idleneti and temporary diltrefs were con fetidly the chief motives of inducement; the former joined with vanity, would thus be as amply gratified, and the latter as amply relieved by going into the battalions for the limited fervice, and an improper competition would thereby be railed againft what was originally called the Regular Army. Though the Army of Referee was quoted as the fuccefs to be returned, he was not midaken when he ventured to affertthat almoft the whole of the p a coo men railed for that army, would have been ratted for the Regu lars, had that Army of Referee never citified. It was Laid, that 13,000 men had been procured. That very circumftance proved to him that every one of ' , theft 13,000 were thole very men who had originally intended to go into the Regular Army. ,They, how ever, did not prefer going at once into the regular ,and extended fervice at the low bounty of to gui neas, when, by proceeding gradually, they were enabled to procure a bounty of so guineas. He neither approved of the plan of interchangeable promotion betweln the Officers of the &ft and fe oond battalions, becaufe it would not prove fati•fac• tory to the Officers; nor did he think the enlittment of the privates of the fecund Natation into the fire, was likely to be fo general as expefted• With re. (pea to foreign fervice, he thought it extremely de. arable that all potable pains fhould be taken to pet l an end to that abominable branch of fervice, the duty of the Welt India Hands, that had fo longj proved the grave of oar gallant regiments. It was by no means to be expelted, that men from the fe-i cond battalions would be induced to enlift for re cruiting firft battalions on that (entice, from which fifty or fixty men were dying per day of the pefti. lenual dileafes of the climate. It was no unfrequent thing, on that deteltable fervice, for an entire 'regi. Went to die in a few months, without the opportu nity of fignalizing its charafter by any aft of va lour in the public fervice to endear its memory to its country and friends; a confideration more gal- 1 ling to the fpieits of sallant men, than any hard-, (hip, danger, or fatabty, attendant on their public I duty; and if the projea propofed by this Bill, of railing local regiments in the feveral counties, and' lending fuch corps on fuch fervice, inftead of regi ments recruited from the country at large, the confe quence would be, that where rude* regiment experi enced Inch general fatality, it would completely dole up all refources of recruiting in the county where fuch regiment was railed, for a (cries of years. How ever, as the Right Hon. Gentlemen who introduced this Bill, had not yet finally de•ermined upon that point, it might be dircutted hereafter. But in events it was indifpenably neceffary to put a flop to the odious buGnefs of Weil-India fervice as now car ried on, by tranfmitting whole regiments thither, a fervice Co univerfally obnoxious to the army in general ; for if• not, lie declared to Gon, he Moult rather the whole of the Weft-India Illands were loft to this country, than maintain them at fuck a lots of our brave troops. The Right Hon. Gentleman bad propofed, under this Bill, to fuffer the Militia gradually to diniinith to its original number of 40,000 men, which upon his calculation of sOOO men per annum, the number now found ne ceffary to keep op the full force, would take a period of fix or (even years. He could fee no reafon for a pencils Co tedious, towards an objeft fo defirable ; nor why it Mould net be declared at once, that Par liament had, in its wifdom, decreed the immediate reduftion to aci,oop neceffary, and then fairly pro mote to accept the furplus as Volunteers to the line ; by this means there would, he thought, be a prompt and eligible mode of adding so,ooo difciplined men immediately to the line, indeed of waiting the flow progrefs of recruiting in the ordinary way for men for limited fervice, and afterwards depending on the mere chance of their entitling for general ferric* ; but upon the whole, he thought the prefent Bill a piece of complicated machinery, rather calculated to retard and perplex. than to promote or facilitate an objea fo clearable as that of completing our force of the line. It reminded him of a piece of mecbanifm he had Peen in his tour in Germany, in which a deal of complex machinery was employed to work an automaton figure, playing the game of chefs; but, notwith Rending this machinery, the manner by which the game was played was inviable. The moll fpeedy and effeCtual mode of recruiting would, in his mind, be the plain, ample, and cuftomary manner recom mended on Friday night by his Right Honourable Friend Mr. Windham. The plan peopofed by this Bill would do nothing. Diminith the complexity and redoCe the obftacles, and recruits enough would then be obtained for tl`: regular army. Col onel- Cranford then reverted to the tubjeft of awls for the defence of the weaker poir.ts of our coaft againft the enemy, upon which, in former difcuffions on the fubjefl of National Defence, he has laid Liu much firers ; and he Laid he would be content to be for ever difmitfed the public fervice, and banithed the country, if he did not conliroft thole works in fuch a way as to render thole parts of our craft, now molt eapofed to attack, unattackable ; or fhould an enemy land, fo effeCtually to obltruft his march from the cleft to the capital, as to render the defeat certain in one or two affairs. The magazines of the country too, he would ftrengtben in fuch a way se not to be at tempted with any chalice of fueeth, without the re- exiar term of a flese, which no'enemy who could ' in this country could ever maintain ; and cult the capital itfelf he would fortify in fueh a way as to, :ender it perfealy defenfible by its inhabitants, with out chaining down the general force of the country from ;ither great operations.. Another . great princi ple he would drone) , recommend. and in which the !tier Honourable Gentleman himfelf feesor—i to co. incide, was to train and difcipline, to the utmad ex tent praEticable, the irregular force of the country. He meant not only the prefcnt Volunteers ' but the peafantry ; for though they need not be all actually armed, it was highly neceffary they tbnuld be trained to the ufe of arms. For lhould an enemy land in any force, hard-fonght aftions . mint neceffarily enfuc, which, however brilliant and fuceefsful on the part of our troops, could nf , t but be attended with coal'. derable lots on their fide, as well as with the enemy. It would, therefore, be of high importance to fill up the ranks immediately with dirciplined men, and to be , ready to meet the enemy next day in as full force as at firs, while he was cut off from the poffibility of reinforcements. He apologized for taking up fo long the time of the Honk, and concluded by ezpreffing his thorough conviaion that the prefent Bill was ut terly inadequate to its propofed objeth, and that he Humid therefore nppore it in every liege. Mr. BURLAND alto was againft the Bill. He admitted that it might in many intlances be expedi ent during a period of war', bat he could not approve it as a permanent fyllem. But even in the former cafe,he was convinced that unlefs the utrnoft vigilance and exertion were employed to render it effeltual, it would, like the Army of ReferveAft,prove ineffeattal. Mr. ROBERT WARD obferved, that the moll prominent argument againft this Bill was, that it had nothing novel in its compofition. A Right Hon. Gentleman, however,though not friendly to the Bill (Mr. Yor k e ), had dircovered in it a very novel principle, namely, that of doing away ballots, a principle which he (Mr. Ward) conceived to con. Ruh a material difference between this and all pre ceding meafures on the fubjetft, and which would go to obviate the opprellive principle fo generally the fubjeft of complaint. Some Gentlemen argued againft the Bill, as going to conflitute in the country a great Rending army ; while others again oppofed it principally becaufe it did not go to create a (land ing army; between fuCh contrariety of opinions upon the tendency of the fame meafure, it was indeed dif. ficult to draw a line of reconciliation. The Hon. Officer who (poke left, (and for contelting with whom upon military fubjefts, he perhaps ought to apolo gize) teemed to think the mode of raifing men thrn' the interference of pariftt officers utterly objeetionable, and likely to be produElive of no good died. He i did not pretend to queftion the (kill of experienced • officers, whore profeffional bufinefs it was to manage troops after they were railed ; but be milk claim the privilege of exercifing his judgment as a private Mem ber of Parliament, upon the molt likely mode of railing thefe men in the parochial diftrias. The Hon. Colonel teemed to think crimps a very ufeful body of men, who ought not to he *Waited. He, however, thought them, as many other Members uniformly did, difgraceful to the fervice ; and be was forty to undeltand, that many gentlemen who bad occafion to raife men, were obliged fometimes 'to retort to their aid ; but be thought the mode of railing men by the interference of patina officers in finitely more eligible, as exempt from the fraudulent artifices fo ufual with crimps. Mr. JEKYLL explained, as did Colonel CRAU FURD in a few words. He maintained that the Bill would procure no men for the regular army who would not have entered independent of it, and that any men which it did procure would be obtained by means the molt detellable. He denied that he bad lupported crimping generally, bin aliened that the praftsce might, under proper regulations, be tolerated. Sir W. YOUNG, in a fhort but pointed fpeech, oppofed the Bill, as in every point of view unconfti tutional, unneceffary, and dangerous. It went to impofe a tax railed without the controul of Parlia ment, and to keep up no left than 68,000 men with out parliamentary controul. He was decidedly againft its further progrefs. Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE deferibed the Bill as an unjull exclulion and permanent tax on the Landed Interell. He deprecated the fyliem of pulls officers being converted into recruiting ferjeants. He was totally adverfe to the mixture of general and paro chial taxes, and viewing the meafure attended with all thefe evils, he felt it his duty to give the meafure his decided dilapprubation. He was particularly fe vere on the mode in which the penalties would at tach to parilhes in cafes where the required quotas were not procured. Sir W. PULTENEY obterved, that the country always had been able to defend kW/ againft France ; that it was now in a better condition to meet any force that could be fent againft us than at any for mer period of our hillory. In fall, he confidered danger as a mere bugbear. Mr. RYDER declared that he thought every ex ertion that the country could make was wanting at the prefent crifis, when we law an enemy with two or three hundred thoufand men in arms immediately oppofite oar couill. Objeaion had been made to the union of a civil and military charaaer in the parith officers who were to be appointed to mite men by this Bill. But were not the Militia and the Army of 4Referve railed by men equally in a double capacity ? Are not the great body of our Volunteers in the fame fituation ; and would au). Gentleman ferioutly recommend the Volunteers to relinquillt either part of their charater ? Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE explained. Sir JOHN NEWPORT cunfidered the plan• as operating on the people by an unequal and partial preflure of taxation.—The Supporters of the Bill complained that it bad been rppofed on different grounds by different perfors. That appeared to him as the itrongeft region that could be urged againft the meafure, as it proved that it was liable to oStiec tion in more ways than one. The queftion was then called for, and the Houf.. divided—For the Speaker leavir the Chair 2 19— Azaina it strict—Majority gc. in the Committee the Chancellor of the Exchequer propored to fill op the blanks, and Rated that in one part of the Bill he wifhed that I a,OOO men &mild be author ited to go annually from limited to general fervice, and that the At% &Quid CIIIIIMCDCS on the aft Oftober Leo. Mr. JOHNSTONE fuggefled the propriety of tbe INa being might fie more filch an important Mime. The C HA, ferved. that men would zr. knowledge of not with to way of fuch Mr. P. MOO be re-commit - Mr. SHE thought the the Bill was portion to it fu Opole d to deliberate au his own part, (crumbling thought tint should be re The CH/ lentinded the and added that propofed for his own indil Mr. SHE. of proceeding paragraph by rune& what Bill was proceeded The CH, again urged _ as an argument titan mcde that althour think that titers Sir GILA. general principle pointed remarks fent Minillers r The Honourable der. He, connexion - nifter's charafter, adminiftration, order in making him at the ing that the that he fltould again on Thurfi Mr. FOX there were " could resoled; Bill paragraph 63 op the Ws mitred. If the regular The CT raid, that the quellion, that point. Mr. JO,. was weal's* portanc tk with to hurry Houk t and could flatter number off The C, (Aid, that I. forward in fa readily accede Mr. FOY filling op bens an not reafens know what confider as Mr. W' latter Member his Right I adopt was that had ' Member Mr. JO) the Bill it tempted , Mr. W: bufinefs h: that the Committee could regularly begin to read the Bill then, and therefore declared hinifelf in favour of the re-committal. Mr. ADDINGTON thought that the Hoofe had been brought into an aukward predicament by adopt ing the plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman. Should the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Fox) infiß on his motion, and carry it, the Huefe could not better it felf. All it could do would be to order the Chair man to report progrefs, and all leave to lit again. When they came again to proceed to bufinefs. they would Rill find themfelves in the fame predicament ; they had, through siiiteonception, gone fo far through the Bill, and they could not go back. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER maintained, that on thoufands of occafions he had known the Houle, when they had proceeded under a radconceptiom go back on a bufinefs of this kind. sad be could not fee the reafon why they &mild Dot du fo now. He contended, that if they bad fallen into a millake, it did not proceed from any fault of his.— He had explained his own views, and no Gentleman feemed to have any amendments to propofe. The menace of the Hon. Gentleman on the usher fide he did not regard; and though be did not expel! to make much provers he to-night, lbould not be deterred by any fuel menace from going as far as be could. Mr. FOX could fee nothing improper or unufual in his motion. Menace be bad held out none; all he waked was to have the Hook placed in that fitu ation in which it had Rood before it had allowed it fell to mifunderfiand the meaning of the Right Hon. Gentleman. The Bill was uoquellirmably of impor.. tance, and it wag fomewhat extraordinary if the Houle was to be deprived of its ufual privilege of going through it paragraph by paragraph, under the idea that they were enii:led to g back ; and if the preamble had been already puliponed, he lisould move immediately afterwards that the Chairman do now leave the Chair. Mr. WINDHAM had always widerftood it to be a privilege of 'a Committee of that Houle to go through every Bill paragraph by pesagraph, nor could be conceive that goy piston *mild Mot at ' . re-core anted, in order thett Gettdonek- ' core at their Wore the OM, sera dr; portant Bill as that then Imifoie the C r est 7 , ' ANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER di~ s .t as the Bill was already printed. Geildt. • V moil probably already have a fug • of its contents ; and they rarely * 3 place any unoecelfary (*flack in ~ l a measure. MORE recommended that the Bill Eititidd • lined for Thurfday. 's '1 ERIDAN (aid, that the quellion *laic:she z - • 4 : Committee bad to confider was, whether .1 of any impotence or nor ? and, in pew , the extent of the importance which they ' ) be attached to it, in fa much the mote attention was required to the fubjeift. For a, he was always adverfe to that fort of through a Bill. In the prefent cafe, be at it was abfoluteli neceffary that the Bill e rontmitted. lANCELLOR of the EXCHEQ_UIER he Committee of the latenefs of thelour, that he witted to adopt the plan be hid, 'ir the convenience of others, and. hie* • dividual convenience. • • ERIDAN Paid, that the only regular .way ing in the Committee was to. read the 11111 by paragraph. Any Geademas ' lat amendment he thought proper as IM' roceeded in. lANCELLOR of the EXC :c1 a 'confideration of the fate /Cs oft • meta for the adoption of the woe ' of going through the Bill i and ohlbread o . sgh tome debate was ezpeeed, he did net • - there thould have been a nisch earlier: dl. • .BERT HEATUCOTE reprobated the rinciple of the Bill, and made Come very . marks upon the manner in which the F ob los came into power, inottrablc Member was then called to or. :, however, refumed, declaring that the, was Co Prong between the idea of the M. • " tarafter, and that of any gdet aft of ble •• • Rion, that he thought hi..f pedal' , it' ' asking the obfervatinns that oceereed to' moment. He then concluded with maw : • he Chairman do now leave the Chair. and . ould report progrefa, sad a& lean to at Thurfday. )X declared that it appeared to him that . e but two ways by which the Committee ;olarly proceed; the PeP was to read the,. • ;mph by paragraph, and the other was to. blanks, and order the Bill to bare come-- If the Bill was to be gone thmegh width!' t it ar way, it could not be done that ni t. • :HANCELLOR of the EXCHE Q UER • if any Gentleman wiffsed it be "nig t pot ion, and take the fenfe of the Committee on t. )HNSTONE obferved. that a Sill which • 'de 74,0ra0 men was one of (nth folio im- ' , that be was furprifed to beat any peepasi : . orryfoch a routine ;aimed, throll i t i thil .' •' and anted if the Right Hoe. C _A - rt ; ~. tier himfelf that he amid aavally rade thew' •-• of men be prnpokd by fuck a nugatory plan f CHANCELLOR of the EXCHECZyER t if there was any (officio* argument brought in favour of the re.committal. he fisouldvery 'tee& to it. 'OX then declared.; that if the diEcoky of P the blanks, and the idea of 'wing Meat. opponueity to fogged amasad eots o were ens fur the recommittal, he really did not !tat the Right Honourable Gentleman would • as foch. WILLIAM DUNDAS differed from the [ember, and contended, that the mode which it Honourable Friend willed the Hook to 'as much more regular than any obfervatioit I been made by the Honourable and furious r who (poke last but two. lOHNSTONE again urged his objeltions to itfelf, and to the mode in which it was at- I to be carried through the Houfe. WILLIAM SMITH remarked, that as the had been fo far flurred over, be did not think Committee could regularly begin to read the ,