Star. — London, England, 1816-04-04 00:00:00

I II . ,_. noo l o gna, Asey had a right Ao ciehianff aciequate i+"' , a sepias Governtnent, and a responsible it aperatinn. Such a system could not be upheld if we o we, were divided among other deparemegsa:, n u weentretalone derived from the colonies fanned ants h at ground lei sue!) a Government. To the' ,„ mesn eal for transferring the colonies to the SeceetOry w oo f i„ me , Departments' there was this great -sarelorr, that the increase of colinake t i t aw Imam 1 reader such a plan wholly . jmpraeticabbt; s sp ans of a domestic nature could never . be - so ;:ked with colonial !swiftest as to distract Inen's at- i isi t i n i a_ f r om the duties that ottht to be attended to. ty, when the colonies were under the .Ho rn e = m em, .he interests of the black population in i s Wen Indies wen wholly neglected, and the tn. rbusiness could not be piincttiallk transacted.-- it the office were abolished, so many clerks soit ire retairsed that the- saying altogether would l e e s .be more than ‘12.000--t-(Thar, hear)—vrhhoot btatinto consideration the gratuities to be given se ek ne barged clerks. On the whole, the colonies no t be governed without the department in icon; and, therefore, it was necessary to hove' VI co mi n d e r who should pay his s .le • attention to' 0* snd, on that account a saving of 7 or £3000,. new els 1112 AM, would be irea compensation for the hirer and the loss that must be sustained frdm a a s o f government in the colonies, whose popula tion, wealth, and capital, had of late years increased v s wet enormous extent. m e . C. W WYNNE . took notice of the great di. m i nut i a e nt business in the Home Secretary's Office, N i n o sod grown up since he held a place in that de. outosst .. fhe militia, volunteers, and aliens; were no an nbject of the Secretary's . attention, and t h ere fore the business of the Home Department was In much diminished, that the Minister for that De partment had. sufficient time to attend to bther busi ness When he looked back and saw the multi• tulle of business produced by the war, and which no tiger existed, he had no doubt but that one Semi- tary of State could perform the duties of the Colo ries and Home business. He asked if there never wife period in which we had more Colonies than at r m . ? Was there not a time when we were in preenton of the whole Continent of North America? Vhsr, leer, hear.) —And was there at that time a 'bird Secretary of State ? One-half the• business of esih department was done away by . the peace; and the most natural proceeding war to consolidate the ('sties of cacti office into one. Some years aLlo Lord Mils& held at once three offices, those of Secretary for the Colonial Department, Pr..sident of the Board of Controel, and Treasurer of the Navy ; and no complaint was made of his not performing his duty ; he preyed himself fully equ it to all the ofSeet.—. There wee one colony in particular, the superinten donee .1 which ought to be isne.er the Secretary of the Home Departruena and that was the colony of Nee South Wales. For all these reasons, he thought the alteration proposed by his Right Hon. Friend wail(' be highly beneficial to the country ; and, in point of economy, it woul.l be of great importance to the Government. Besides it wai of great utility that persons in office should be kept constantly employed, and this employment would make it n...cessary to have a more efficient and able person to fill the office of the Home Department than the person by whom it Was no,k fill e d. Mr. H. ADDINGTON said 'the Honourable Geatlman was mistaken in what he said of the American colatie, ; for when these colonies were nn la the domiaien of Great Britain, there was a third Minister, called the American Secretary. He was ready vi admit that much of the business of the H D-pittment would soon be diminished, but ' o r year 1 &) 5 it had increased one.third, ano's s i i n n c e e e th e year 1806 the Irish correspondence hadincreasedone e Ibid. nine was besides a constant Correspon d ence , witlithe Lord Lieutenant of Ireland— (Hear, may sa 4 , r. • __ ( ear, hear.) y mar, &ear," but there was an increased correspondence every where, and particu larly with Magist r a tes . It often happened ihatin: tamed dunes tell upon some officers, and then other Ahern assisted in performing the same. With regard to his Noble Relation (Lord Sidmouth) he could as fate-the House that hi, attention to th e duties of h" . sfistirstievr days as constant and unremitting; that.heh ad sat in h i s o ffice, and always heard the corn- Salon the humblest individuals who cadet* him all °Seal business. . . ilk *AR Ryarr thought there ought to be a eNlitte unity of system and of action .•owl-ds all a ereslianirS; . and therefore it would be highly un lit' ao transfer different colonies to different depart /low Indeed he thought it would soon be found datMore attention must be paid to the C'olonial De , iit- men t, on account of the various laws, languages,. alGthanners belongin g to the new settlements ac- Pited h _ ... daring the war. We had French settlements, um% Spanish, and a Gre ek . settlements . ; and the gO - of these woul d require an increased know wee of other laws and languages different from our. Theiefore, d thebest means of 'conducting busi -4lrat home, promoting prosperity at home, 'could be to fall ow an the wise institutions of our ances kli and that was, to give the blessiAgs of the i lridsh Constitution to the Colonies. Then the busi amialSinh_e Colonies might be done with less labour i...._ ,s 4 P7 l _ ke ; but if the present 'system was kept up, ''. 24 7n ed. d be necessary to uphold every office that now • Be JOHN NEWPOR r said he had heard no ar. meet to convince hits that with such a reduction duties a Living of twelve thousand pounds a-year in -not to be iii,ide for the country. When the 4 de Lord opposite (Lord Castlereagh) was on the atient, the duti e s of. his office were filled by the 41 2 now Proposed to be reduced ; and why should ""Y Practicable plan of economy be resorted ""' When the country was in its present state of dif-- 1 .... 144 a• BATHURST cohtended, that the adrni- I Z". 1 of the Colonie s re q u i re d the whole men _ ul etie Minister ; and it would be impossible to :rl en that government by dividiu the Colonies Z ig .Itlier departments. With respect to the buti. nlie ~ f fice devolv-n g on anot h er , as was done MZ ~t Noble Friend was on the Continent, or du d'ir Foe's anneals, sucautaings as these often:hall' ilk case. of inc i si ng necessit * ; but it did not 2th -I such 1 dung .• ~ u id *way& take place; 6.- 1 1 41 111.44;h his N 'ble Frtend• was on the Con -744'4 "ill traosacteu the gteatest part of "the base masa* . Came utitiftitis deperunent. IfuerfOr eign,' s I r . posiesslons were adminttietiti h tirOloOghi to be. would be impassible for the Heine or Foreign Do. perm** td'atteNd to them. • Mi. J. SMITH - wished to tell to the tecolleetion of the House, that the. office now proposed ore be done away had. been abolished by Mr. Bartel Sill, in' 178'2, and'the office was nevi. d by Mr. Ditndas, in l 784; and he Wished'to know why it should now be kept •utr,- when there were no voltinteers, and no mi., ,MINa ? He was persuaded that one principal Secre-i .tary of State would be suffitient to discharge ;he whole :of the•fligest. and. Colonial , Department. He thought • nonsp and retrenchment essentially necessary in the preaent circumstances of the country, and those he considered would be sufficient. If Ministers, how. ewe, neglected the voice of the 'country, they did not, deserve to he its servants. Mr. BANKES said, that he always felt a disposi lien to agree to every, proposition, the object of which was public economy, and it eas not without doubt and aliffitulty that he had come to the determination, char it was not consistent with the convenience of public business to abolish the office under detrate.— (Ilear.)—lie was not lcd to this determination by the circitmdance, that this office was not included in the Bills which he had brought into the House, be. cause those Bills had been drawn up in tone of war, when there could have been no questiOn of abolish ing that office. He was afraid that in endeavourin.. to 'tee the expense of this office, and to effect a con sequept reduction of patronage, the Hon,- would cause considerable inconvenience to the public ter vice. He agreed with the 16th Report of the Finance Committee, that the continuance of this office should depend on the state in which the country was left in time of peace. What was the state in which the clue try had been left ? With a great increase of Colonies beyond what could have been in the contemplation of that Committee. The Right Hon. Mover was aware of this, and he had proposed to call in the as sistance of an office which had been appointed tor quite different purposes, the Board of Controls'. It was desirous that an uniform system sloald be adopted with respect to the Colonies, and he there fore thought it unsdvisable that any of them should be put under the same officer as the Company's pas sessiont in India. Then with regard to the saving, he did not think it could be considerable, because an addition would be requisite to the salary of the Pre sident of the Board oi Controul, for •hil additional serviee, and there would be a great increase of clerks required. -The expense would probably be as great as at- present, and the system would -be less conve nient. In his exertions on the subject of public cco. nomy, he had always endeavoured to recommend, that the efficient of f icers should be fairly and amply paid, and those offices which were nicks' should be atrolislied. Why, for instance, should the two Jus tices in Eyre be continued so long after their duties had ceased On the other hand, in the efficient offices of the State, the duties had increased in a large pro portion. In the Tieasury the business of late years had doubled ; and he was convinced that the Colonial business was so increased as to require the whole at tentiou of one Secretary. As he thought, therefore, that it would be inconvenient to throw this business on the other departments, he could not agree to the motion.—;Hear, kear, from tis diVissitioni Jae of the' Hemp.)—lt would be more2griteable to him to sup port a measure, the 'object of which was economy, but he. did not think the office under consideration was one of the first which should be reduced.—(Naar, hear, in a groaning lone ) Mr. PONSONBY was sure the. Honourable Gen tleman who had just sat down had made'his decision on the present questi , n , vith considerable doubt and hesitation ; and he hoped the Honourable Gentleman WAS not against the motion of his Ittglit Honourable Friend, merely because it did not strike him first (Hear, hear).—How very unfortunate it was, that there was hardly any motion for public economy, made by any other Gentleman than himself, which the Honourable Member did not oppose ! —(ls'ear, iiear)—He begged the House to consider what the situation of the country now was at the close of the war. If we were to take the word of Ministeri, it was one of perfect external safety ;—there was no reason, they said, to expect a renewal of hostilities. Thai was its state abroad ; and what was it at home ? It was one of unexampled and unparalleled distress, in which no man felt .the blessings of peace, and in which the public burthens were felt more severely than during the hottest of the war. Was not this a 'reason for every possible_ economy ? The Honour. able Member had asserted that we had more colonial possessions than at any former period. This he . de nied. Before the separation of the thirteen provinces of America, the whole business of these colonies was transacted in this office; and could any man'of toin mon sense say, that there must not have been then more business than now belonged to it ?—{Hiar r iear) ---,Yet all this business of the colonies was transacted. in the Home Department down to the year . 176& the period when the American war broke out, and when there was an additional officer appointed. But untold, any man pretend to assert that there was more colo nial business now than before the year 1701 . T. 'Honourable Member says, however, that it wouldbu unseemly to place our islands under the Bowl; of Controul, who were paid by the East India Com. pany r but how could .the Members of that Board be the.paid servants of the India Completes • when they were placed there to controul ihet:consPanf TIM were appointed by . the Crown not hy.tbe Company,; and the circumstance of their. salaam coming, from the Company was a 'mere matter of arransomeot.--- Where would be the inctingruity.of piaci/a#*01:084 ness of Ceylon, the Mauritioa, aosl. the .Capc, isndet that Board, when-they akeady,ltad the seirrinteed nice of all India ? The mono. .Of his , Right Uwe nourable Friend left the business of the•ColOwitllA. PaitMent. itthat office was abolished; JO be arranged by Ministers in the way they thotight proper.; sod there was a particular aptitude in the time for making a proper arrangement, ibecaoSe Rresidentship of the Board of Controul was now vacant. He was satisfied that there was no. Gentleman in. the country who would refute that office, even tlotigh clogged with this additional duty. The smallest sum . that would be saved by the ,abolitibu of this: place was 412,00 U a year, a sum.of no hule importance under the present distresses. He.did. not taish to 'snake in vidious remarks; but the country would not fail to, observe the great discordance between _the ..Noble Lord's promises end .praitiee . of. etpoopty-T- Oh lie. ,liar.)- -HO 41* tOia 40nitelltriAklibitit - % 7 croak their titatli wise in inn Ta the &termites. [don ichad etprened.on the first day of the Session, since the people could not longer be blinded as to the :intention te Govertirnen to spend the utmost farthing ~. they could procure from Parliament. ' Lard CAS TLEREAOH was aware how easy it was to call in question the sincerity of any man upon the subject of retrenchment, who ventured to oppose the visionary schethee of the other side of the HMls', but be was persuaded that no Member would be de terred Irons the exercise of a sound discretion by , * dispo,itiun, (the display of which had been this night repeated) to run down every iedividoel who did not subscribe to some hitherto unhesrd.of plan of ems nomy. (Near.) He readily admitted that, in the present times, even small savings became important; but he was convinced that to abolish the arduous! Office of the Third Secretary, would he to sacrifice Administration to a notion of a false economy.— In view. it would be much more wise, if such a change were lit and necessary, to transfer the dutlkil of the Secretary for the Colonies to the Lord Presi dent of the Council, or to the Lord Privy Seal, than to give them to the President of the Board of Coa! troul ; for the }Luse *mild recollect that the Third 'Secretary was a Minister responsible for advice to the Crown, while the President of the Board of Controul was merely the head of a body, and was !no noire re sponsible than others with - whom he acted. •To give these high duties to an irrespossible officer was there fore a most clumsy device; and would subvert one of the fundamental principles of the Constititto,o. It wIS true that, is the eye of the law, these was but one Secretary of State ; but for pnblic convenience, the functions had been divided among three indivi duals, each of whom was, most fully employed. The place had been abolished in 1782, when we hot our American Colonies 1 but would . any man contend that our situation now was to be compared with our situation at that period !? lo point et fact the pub. lie business, in every Department, had doubled, thou h it •had been deemed right, of late, to lop off one of the Under Sec r e taries . (H ear , hear.)— It was impossible that a system of more talse eeono• My could be adopted than that of removing the su perintendence of the higher Officers of Government : it was true, that it only mectianical labour, the mere signature of names, were considered, perhaps one Secretary might be sidEtient where two were now appointed ; but it was necessary that. these places should be filled by persons of ee; arged minds, capahe 'of comprehensive views of great rneitiures ; and it was fit that they should not be 'sir perpetually occu. pied with technical matters, as to prevent•them from turning their attention to those..extensive improve. meats that might be made in the general state of the country. Hitherto this object had been attained ; and while the present system* wos continued, he tiOnbted not that men 'competent- to the rftities of these important stations, and willing to.discharge them, woold•be found its the-best informed ranks.of she community.—(Hear, Hear.)--Supposing the office were abolished, ite believed it would be attend . 4 with little or no saving of the p ublic money, since A giest number - of prisons now filling places would , be added to the list of pensioners; antthcise who ter erre-d annuities on thegroundof superanena:ion•oe- I besides, no economy could be Moro mistaken* than. the abolitim and re-creation of ofilces on sudden. emergeocies. All the'greunds laid for the motion seemed therefore to fail:• a::d it wai extremely unfair so reason upon general principles from individual cases,• Mce that of the late Lord:Melville. to whom reference had besot wide as holding the Secretaryship for the War Department avid the Presiden:y of the B •ard of Controul at the stme time. It could not be denied thatarery few men possessed:Orel:dolts for business enjoyed by that Nobleman, and therefore any deducaon in argument from thence was mod pArticul Ay unfounded. . . Mr. ROSE cautioned Gentlemen not to be led, away by the bold assertions made on the Other side. —(Neari hear).—One Right H o nourable Gentleman ! (Mr. Ponsontry) had said that the business !of the t.sree Secretaries of State was now.much less than at the period when we possessed our American Colonies; but he (Mr: Rose) had a distinct beliet that such was by no means the fact. He wished to address a few words more, especially to the Right Hodourabk Gentleman opposite ( Mr. Tieruty), who had told the House, that when he was Treasurer of the. Navy he had never been employed two hours in the day. He (Mr. Rose) should have been Much surprised if! the Right Honourable Gentleman could have found any thing to occupy him fee a'quarter of an hour in the day ; for he had left behind him no trace ot the ! dischargoof any of the duties of Treasurer ot the! Navy but the signature of his name, four times a. year, to the receiptfor his salary.—(Near, hear, and laogrimer J.-4701 might the Right Honottrairle,Gen. dense') suinstin that that place was a. binectire, and . one man would. be pethetly competent to the did. .charge of the duties of two, three. four. or five such places......Vhar, hear).—He (Mr. dose) begged to inform the Honig; that in his bands the business of the office had been very different.— (Hear, dear, and arstionvai latrikr).—Se' laborious was it, that when Ise: retired into the. country, be protested that he was tinder the necessity ts( occupyiug many hours of the dap in the discharge of his accumulated duties.— Wier* Aters /Am 0 1 144—He declired again that .this was- the fief; and if any Holiourablc Gentle makdeobaed it he Mod wing to do but to make byperiet of the Paymaster, Who would.prose that ot We years the ' reasurership of . the Navy , had become p most aiduous.simstian;—(Heer, Afar), . J. FOLKESTONE was old.fashioned enough lei think thatotOnie weight was due to an Act . of Par liament which Ministers seemed. to set at . nought: `while Mr, Burke's Bad continued on the statute book,l the Wee ot third Secrostytimal be:illegal, and thosel whcfAiloported the-continuance of that-place would I do sired to bring a measu r e to repeaFin Act which ! they were notoriously coetravening.\ In 1782 the Orme was suppressed; in' 179*it was, revived as me, SeCretai.yehip for War, ite ati'focetes - COnteading that . Mr.'But la% Bill was onlpititetleil agairist-theSecre tasyship for the'Cololites. lit • prairie of time some of the dutiiieof.the hpme d t being given it' the Secretaserfer Foreign A Oft, a part of the best ow of 'the Calcifies devolved upon the Secretary of ' War, and he'searcaffedletMetary for• War and Cola' tries: 'Now piece war 4.tured; of course all his wax teactitMa well Aram end. audit lies admitted that he Obeli new ugly be galled &simony for 'tite Colonies] l 'eV that it add not be denied that it was in direct op. ) 'petition to tie' till of Mr. sterik width cleaned that the place should thereafter be smelly 6 4 abolished. suppressed, and taken a way." -:( Hare defies)—The next clause provided, that if it *boom ever afterWarda be revived, it should he deemed a new office; and the Ministers were conseqiiently in the dilemnatthat ' nn person could be appointed to it, and at the same time be a Member of the Hem of Commons. This sort of perielty was deemed a sufficient security against the rene.val of the office. As to the tithe when this motion was made, it was imprissible that any. could be chosen when the language of the preamble of the Act of 1782 would more strongly apply : it was pared ci* from a desire on the part of his-Majesty to relieve his pen*. and. to discharge the debt on the Civil List witheut new burdens, as well as to intro. duce,a bet;er system of economy than had hitherto prevailed, and to .secure more effectually the freedom and independence or Parliament." For all these tea. eons.the efts.: of third Secretary bad been abolished ; and which of them at the present moment would nut applp with en,thie force P e( Thar, hair.) - Mr. TIERNEY, in reelyine, said that he wished in the Frst place to aearess a few words to * Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Rem), who bad been moved•to great wrath by what he (Mr. Tierney) had said regardine the insignificant duties of the Tree. surer of the Navy. That it was in truth a sinecure he was warranted in asserting, by the often-mentiohect Tepees aaf Sr; Vrancis airing ; althnuph it was equally true that other duties, not connected with that place. did devolve upon the person tilling it, for which ez, matt-ens business the salary was not nominally but actually paid. " The Right litneurahle Gentlemen (continued Mr. Tierney) asserts with his usu3l Telles mence, that the only trace I left behind me, when I filled thaeplace, of the execution of any business, was the signature of my name four times a-year • for my salary. Now, the fact, unluckily for me, is, that I only received the salary for three quarters.—(Hear. hear, hear!) At that time I was a pour man, and a poor man I continue to be; and I might have some excuse for receiving the money, even were it true that I did nothing to earn it. But what is the situ. ation of the Right Honourable Gentleman P.—. What excuse has he to oiler ?—(Hear, hear)—he that is burthened with emoluments taken out ot the public purse —(Rear, hear)—the calculation of the amount ot whose sinecures is the most difficult duty he has to discharge—(bran hear) --who makes a boast that they are se numerou e that even Isis retirement in the cnuetry is breken in upon by correspondence regard. ing them—(Hear, hear.) Surely it is a little too much that the li. gilt Hen. Gentkmae should not only hehiall these place, but should boast of them in the face of the Commons of England, who anon ally vote the money. fee his I:my:mot( ? (Hear, hear.) Let me Aids him if he is not Cleric t o the other Horse ot . 'Parliament?--a place that his cl-e.ldren hnld in rever sion leLer him - state the emoluments he derives from that I e-e(Harte, - heai.4 Let once ask him if he.does not hold anothetkeiettere.in. the Cease. of Common Pleas, and• let hint *state the emoluments of that ! —(Hear.) Let me askeltith if beiit not possessed of a third sine cure itt the.'ltecord Officet and, after he has esti • mated Ill'eloaltsa :ofnitese, and all' the others he has obtained; ler himetwit me with hitting, signed my .1 name for t h0e.4.10.6r. , salary while I beepetied to be Treaserer ofehe Navy--;(senfinsed cheer from di rider.) !la asserts that I dad no good .in the (Alice ; let him l ask the clerks how I conducted mytelf."—(Load :re.? of Hear I ;bor.! Hear!) - . .. Mr. HOLTBLON, while the. H"use was in great confusion, rose to splak to order.—" .1 cannot help thinking that, this attack upOn the Right . Henonrahle • Gentleman is irreleiart to the7question in debate."... Walk kneeler gad cortfaiion.)",.. * -. . • •. .• Mr. METHUEN tow, but again took. his sear, the Plet'istebeintain a state of great disorder. (gee& of H anbtoreelfetheet, Chair, &c.) ' • . • I'he,SPEkKER, as soon at-re-der was . restored, said—". It does nor appear to me that the Linnotirehle Member has alleged any thing to shew that the Right Hon. Gentlethan (Mr. Tierney) was out of ceder.. (War. honer .) -" Therefore, I point to that• Right irlo. nouranlageetlenian'eo proceed." (Laud :Amine.). Mr. .I . 4EtNger..A. i Avill admit, it lie . pleases, -that what Iliad been saying (in use the Honourable Member": awn word) was irrelewi,sat to the question, (hear, and laughter), thougli he was unable to shew it; meditating' so tong and so deeply upon the doctrine' of order before he rose. he lust the opportunity -of: correcting me. But to proceed to the Right Hone 'gentleman. Hedeclates that I was a most negli. gent, end thatete is a most active mad etliCient,Tree. surer of the Navy . . As 'to inyseit, that may b e * point not easily tattled here ; but I. confidently re. ter to ever, Clerk in the Oace, to say *ether ;h i c business WAS ever better One than when I was at. [the head of it ? (Load cries of War, hear,. liar.)..._ 1 do not praise myself, but the credit was due to the Paymaster;. for to .me the piece 'Was to all . .inientli ' and perprees, a sinecure. 1 allow that it would not e . be very difficelt to make it otherwise by hart:isiog AL the clerks, and interfering in matters with which the • Treasurer his no conceta ; and that I believe is the fiict with the Right Honourable gentlimane . e(Heaie hiar.) —I ttncletstand diet he Iris introduced +tome re: gsbitiona orieitieting, nn donee in a good motive, 'lsiah have giver a great deal of trouble, and done no good, and (slily chewed a certain degree of rest. 4essatese ef e sylaich. I confes s , rdo not envy the pre, atesstir—(Year, hear).—l state, -that al fir es related . • -to that office, I was perfectly idle, whatever May be the fact eitli:the Right Honourable. Gentleman.; I .. made no ostentatious display of minutes, lest the . place should be deemed, as it was in fact, a sinecure ; • though I do recnllect a new regulation which I intro. diced, "in cimcert With the 'Paymaster, from which important benefits di d result. 'lf the Right Ho. nourable Gentleman• will but giii t me credit for being idle, I will give him cred4 for doing hii ut most to ferret out employments." (Rear, and laughter) . Mr. Tierney Siete proceeded. to notice the arguments in opposition talus inctitione Which wire rather to bee called bold asitertioul, fronitielievinn which the Right H leiurable Gentleman (Mr. Rose). had wisely car. tions! the an use. He contended that this was the. opportunity for giving a practical answer to that part ot the speech of the Prince tegent which held out a proMise of concurrence iti economical amngements, Parliament not having, yet saved the-people a sing/e halfpenny, every retrench/et:lt being compelled by what the Dibble Lord celled the claimer bt 'hemp/ea, He' letitentsd ,that - ad 'iletieurable Weibel (Me. Beelses) had net stood forward to carry into effect 0 •