Star. — London, England, 1816-03-13 00:00:00

I -777,7 1 --7•77.7"--- { .. - ganisons abroad, were necessary. He could em re frain from again recurring to Ireland, and he would ask, by what fatal necessity the present conditioe of' that countrrhad been brouoht - what it was He would, indeed, generally observe, that Ireland had be is Amon uniformly mated too much like a con quered country, red her attachment sought to be gained by farce or arms rather than . by persuasion and mild cencitiation. He had entertained s hope, that some allusion would be made is the Speech from the Tiiroce t the people and the state of Irelands a n d was deeply disappointed in finding the subject to be wholly overlooked ; and there was reason to fear, that in the minds of -some persons the Irish na tion-eras deemed unlit to be admitted to the tree and full enjoyment of the privile g es which were the pride of Englishmen. If any such sentiments were really entertained, it was time for the error to be corrected, for the people of. Ireland had shown that whatever were their grievances, or bow severely. soever they had felt them, they knew bow to approach the Legis latlre with submissive dignity. In defence of the measure of siatinning so many troops in Ireland, it had been urged, that they were required to support the Civil Magistrates. He could not think that was really the case, nor could he relish the thought trf making parish constables of soldiers. He thought such an application of the soldiery not calculated to promote the proper ends of their institution, but on• the contrary, to debase their moral character, and unfit them from their better duties. He earnestly implored their Lordships to take a full and constitu tional view of the question, and to consider how far it wonlil be safe for the country and all which they held dear, to suffer so large a military establishment as that which was proposed to take place. To the military prowe;s and the military character of the country, he must cheerfully contribute his unreserved eulogium. That character had long heels eminently sustained on other plains as well as at Waterloo, though perhaps on none more conspicuously. But he could not help deprecating that excess of admire. lion or rather that madness which would confound the seasons of wir and peace in reference to military establishments. In the sentiments which he sustained, he felt himself fortified by the opinions of a late very eminent person, Mr. Burke, who in referring to the power and proceedings of Louis XIV. observed that it was only upheld by a species of force, which was always dangerous to civil liberty, and could not too vigilantly be guarded against by any State which had the least enjoyment of that invaluable blessing. His • Grlee next adverted to the taxes, the amount of which had, according to the statement of a Noble Friend, exceeded one half of the lauded and commer cial capital of the country. That was an awful and ill* nsesideus condition in which the nation was placed, and extended indeed to the twitter altraot the public means. That was a tact which could not be controverted by any fallacious statements of the Chancellor of the Esltequer, who from one end of Great Britain to the other, would find the delusioos of Isis system ex posed. The Property Tax was every where and by all men reprobated ; and though a precedent for such a tax did certainly exist in the time of Henry IV. yet it was with a pointed and strict provision, appli. ..cable to the peculiar emergency of the occasion, and precluding any recurrence to such a measure after wards on any pretext whatever ; and so abhorrent was the principle of that tax to our ancestors, even in that vary age, before the general principles of pubic liberty v. ere fully or steadily established, that, an t h e mot i on of Sir Thomas Walsinghane, the re cord of the Act was publicly burnt, in order to mark the general feeling concerning it, and to prevent, if possible, its being ever after brought forward as a precedent. Would their Lordships have it supposed, that Our ancestors trete mote jealous pf the Consti tution, and tenacious of its provisions than we were? Upon the internal distresses of the country it was, needless fur him to expatiate, as they were telt on all sides, and universally by all ranks, classes, and de. striptions of people. Of the lands, immense tracks bad b et a dooms out of cultivation. In Norfolk, particularly, to his own knowledge, lands which had let at five and at three pounds an acre, had been thrown up, and were afterwards refused rent free.— The gaols universally were crowded with insolvent debtors. Nor was the evil confined to the cultivators of the soil, it extended to all the other classes of so ciety, and was deeply felt by the Clergy themselves, especially in their tithes, as the Right Reverend Pre. lates could testify. Having mentioned tithes, he would once more recur to the state of Ireland. The Catholic question was one which was doubtless the source of abundant discontent, and called for the most serious and dispassionate consideration. It was indeed a question which had formerly engaged his deep attention but be had Dever heard of any ade. pine or competent plan as a remedy. But surely it was highly proper to go into inquiry on the subject. The agricultural state of Ireland too was an impor. tantand pressing consideration. It was tar from his desire to embarrass Administration. That idea he utterly disclaimed, 'as tare that he should be ashamed of. His wish was, that Government should have free scope, but that Parliament should be duly vigi lant in 'superintending their proceedings, and in the expression of that desire, he only accorded with the Noble Earl opposite at the head of his Majesty's Councils, who hid stated, in general reference to the subject which he had touched on, that twenty wished for a fair, calm, and dispassionate inquiry. The importance of the question could not be disputed.— He was only desirous to revert to the practice of our anc estors. With that view, he must serge the nem, sity of obs, reins the strictest eConuany i - in order to Tc I lc ve the country from a burden of taxation, under which it else must sink. The Noble Duke coucluded 'with " That the House resolve itself into a Committee tur taking into consideration the state of the nation." The Duke of SUSSEX rose to sceend the motion. His Royal Hr 6 liness observed, that after the able manner in which the Noble Duke who moved the question had set forth the objects of it, and consider ing the. very able assistants With whom he was aided And unfounded, it . would naturally appear supetflu. ant i i n him to any thing more than give a silent v o te in tan= of opinions, with' the troth and pro. prioty of which he completely accorded. But there iveie two points on which ha was desirous to offer his distinct • opinion, namely, our external connexions,. and the internal coedit* of the country. * Upon host two leans and Ii topiFs it was hem. eery to pay minute and *Meat. attention. to prevent ner falling into partial ate, mistaken result' ! " The various eetitions *phut the Property Tax were fully sufficient to sinew the agitation which prevailed in the public mind, and k couldinot be denied that it was of deep importance that the public mind should be tranqoillised, that Public which bad 'hewn, during a long aid unexampkd struggle, that it could meet any danger with courage, and sustain any labours and privations wit:4;km*. There had been through out the country d the whole of a long protracted war, but one sentiment, thatOtvarious and combined patriotism. But, at tip close of such a war, it was natural that, as the burdens had been great, the ne cessity of conduit* them ought to be nicely in quired into. qr. the subject of the taxes, there must, of course, -he a variety of opinions. But these was no doubt with most people that when the war was closed, the peculiar expenses of the war were also to end. It was not by military achievements, howsoever splendid they might be, it was not by glory or vanity that the character and prosperity of Great Britain was to be maintained. Whatever might be the brilliancy of: the battle of Waterloo, the ques tion for theirisorAithips, and for the country to con. *der was, whether, by the event of that battle, pub lic security, permanent peace, and prosperity of trade and commerce were secured ? it behoved their Lordships to look to the 'suite of the country at the tiini of the Peace of Amiens and since, when the tnealures ef Bonaparte had induced on the side of this country the Orders in Council. Their Lordships would find, on a comparison between those times, that much more - had been lost than gained by our commerce by the transfer which bad been made of the colonies to the former possessors of them. He much douoted whether any commercial arrangements which could be made would amount to an adequate compensation for the surrender of those colonies. — It had been proved, by sad experience, that in foreign markets, whatever might he the acknowleged curl knee, or general superiority of our manufactures, they were unable to maintain a hopel ul competition with the manufacturers of the Continent ; some of which were said to equal our own ; many to come near; and, on the whole, in point of price, to be sold .50 per cent. under the average rate of English goods. Noble Lords must feel the situation in which British manufactures must be placed by such a comparison. He should next advert to the Army, and call the at. tention of the House to the state of peace in which: this country stood, especially in relation to France. • When peace was signed in France, he would not say that the King was actually a prisoner, but certainly his Majesty teas surrounded by 150,000 foreign troops. He would have their Lordships pause in forming their opinion of a Government so circum stanced as that of France was at that time; would it not (said his Royal Highness) be naturally sup posed that a Sovereign called upon in such a case to sign a treaty was nut to be regarded as a free agent, but rather that he acted on the side of foreigners against the nation? The extension of the military establishment he could by no means approve of. If a military force was to be maintained, let it be for our own protection, and not to keep in action that system which Bonaparte had created, which Europe' had telt the evil of, and of which this country had loudly and justly complained. If the military force was to be kept op in time of peace, the Marines were that species of force which he would be inclined to adopt, because they were always ready to be applied, to the purpose of our natural pr section. In that opinion he was fortified and sustained by that of the great Lord Chatham, who had always maintained that the natural and efficacious strength of the coun try depended on our insular situation, :at the more apart we were from foreign politics th.. stronger we were, and the mote able to render efficient aid to either contending party, who. in such case, would court our alliance, while they would be, in a great measure, indifferent to it, if actively or officiously proffered by us. . There was no one who thought more highly than he did of the excellent discipline and admirable services of the army, but he could not view, without a constitutional jealousy. so large a standing force as that which Ministers had proposed for our peace establishment. He could not forget that men trained up, he meant of course the common men long ie....led to military occupations, wonld sel dom be inclined to return to quiet and industrious habits. He would, with the Noble Duke who made the motion, disclaim all desire to obstruct or embar rass the proceedings of his Majesty's Government ; but he could not help thus publicly declaring his op position to measures not, in his opinion, analogous to tile Constitution. He must add, that he could not without deep cencern observe, that while the Allied Powers declared their unanimous abhorrence of the Slave Trade, they were absolving their subjects in many instances of the oaths of allegiance, not for the purpose of freedom, but for extending and confirming their slavery. His Royal Highness concluded with giving his hearty support to tile motion. The Earl of ABERDEEN opposed the motion, as uncalled for by any one circumstance connected with the present situation of the country; and as to the military establishment, it was necessary in the present state of Europe. He could not see any dan ger in a constitutional point of view that could pos sibly arise from keeping up this force. In the pre sent altered condition of the world, when a freedom of thinking and of discussion existed every where, and particularly in ibis kingdom; when the human intellect was improved, and when public opinion was so widely circulated, there was no reason to fear that any army would ever make encroachments on public liberty. The great object which all had in view at this tune was, the preservation of peace in Europe ; how far that object was to be accomplished must de paid on the internal state of Franee,and an intimate union between the great towers of Europe. It was impossible not to look with some anxiety at the state of France in particular. Napoleon was, indeed, in oar power ; but that dangerous power which had up. held hind still existed in France. where there was the same desperate spirit, and the same love of disorder and rapine as bad prevailed there for several years: Indeed, Esrope might still be. Considered as covered with armed men. In such a state of things it surely eras not fit that we should disarm. If Europe were to remain permanently at peace it must depend upon the preponderating influence of Great Britain; and was it not fit, therefore, that we should possess the meuns of preserving this influence I As to the ob served= of an illustrious Personage, that. we Ought is separate ourselves *baptise. froth 4.oentinent. ane-depend en a navy for dint defence, he iiest serve, that in the best of times it was the policy of this country to maintain a military psedosuinettee on the Continent. it was clear that the balance of power in Europe was essentially restored, and it was the duty as ►ell as the gloiy of England that she should assist in preserving it. This was the . great object of all our wishes, and there was no time when it could be accomplished with greater effect than at the pre. seat moment. Among all the circumstances atte n d• ing our situation, none was more glorious than the character we had acquired on the Continent by our courage, our energy, and our moderation. Now jus tice itself was armed, ant it we were to effect any thing by our influence and our Justice, we must be aimed with sufficient power to enable us to do so.— He therefore conceived, that it would be the greatest possible proof of wea kness to wesken this power by breaking up au army which might be wanted on some unforeseen emergency. •He wished the Noble Lord to consider the immense extent . of empire pos. sessed by this country, and it would appear, that die appropriation of this force was not unreasonable or improper. The Noble Duke argued as if this force o , as to be p7rmatient ; but chat was not the fact; fur 1 the force would not be• kept up longer than the neces sity of the case required. With respect to the forces intended to be kept up in Irelsnd, he thought that in the present state of that country it was necessary; at the same time he I:oped measures would be taken to ameliorate the condition of the Irish people by dif fusing instruction and encouraging industry among them. The Earl of LIMERICK thought it would have been proper in discussing this sul,j,ct, to abstain, as much as possible, from any thing relating to Ireland. He mast however observe, as the stibj::ct had been mentioned, that the misfortunes of that country had 'not arisen from the miscontuct of any Administra tion, but had grown out of circumstances that exist ed from ages. Lirland was not to be considered as a conquered country ; . if, however, it was necessary to protect the loyal and well-affected against the out rages of depredators and rebels, in Gnu's name, let kbe called a conquered country. With respect to what was called Catholic Emancipation, the refusal to grant it had nothing to do with the discontents of Ireland. It would be a libel on the great body of the Cutholics to suppose any such thing. The dis contents of Ireland were fomented—hot by those respectable persons, but by villains, who, in the sririt that had given rise to the late rebellion. en. deavoured by all kinds ot artifices to excite a general; sentiment ot hostility towards the Government.— There did, however, exist in-Ireland a great many grievances, for which he knew not how an immediate remedy could be aepliel The laws respecting illicit distillation were productive of very great evil. He had known the cattle of unfortunate peasants, who had taken no part in those offences against the revenue, driven away and sold by public auction, in order to recover the pemtlties ir'flicted by law on districts where private distillation had been carried on ; but with which distiilaiion they had nothing to do whatever. It might, indeed, be asked, why did not those persons diicover the private distillation ? The reason was, that the punishment of cb.ath await ed any man who made such discovery, tor assassina tion must have been the consequence. The manner in which Tithes were collected in Ireland was an. other great source of public discontent. The evil was more severely felt there than in any other country, because there was no settled system on the subject, and the people had to pay a double propor.' tion of taxes, under the name of tithes. With regard to agricultural prosperity, it was, at this time, in a complete state of abandonment. Whole tracks of land were thrown upon the hands of the owners, who could not cultivate them from a want of the means. It was necessary to look deeper than per snns were in the habit of doing into the causes of the evils that afflicted this ill-used country. The fault originated not in any Ministry, but had existed for hundreds of years. He could state. as a matter of certainty, that the period of the Revolution in 1688, so auspicious to the lib, rty and happiness of Eng. land, was a period of eel; of degradation, and pa ver/ty to Ireland, which at the time became a scene of civil war, of famine, and oppression. The country fell completely into contempt with the English Go vernment, and was ruled over by a few Squires, who abused their power in every possible way. In the reign of George L it was asserted, that England had a right to make laws for Ireland. At a subsequent period, in the year 1782, when that island was in danger of invasion, the people were left to defend themselves, just as the ancient Britons had been left by the Romans ; but the people took up arms, and although French Beets were off their coasts, not a Frenchman dared .to set his foot on the land.— (Hear, hear.)—These people afterwards demanded 'certain commercial rights, which hasl been long withheld, but which sere thou granted to them by Great Britain. After that a rebellion broke out, and the Irish people were obliged to have rectwrse :o an union with Great Britain. In doing this the Gentlemen of Ireland made very great sacrifices— they sacrificed their importance, and they had since felt the effects of it in their prcperty. Some years ago the debt of Ireland did not amount to a single million, now the debt was so great that the annual interest absorbed nearly the whole revenue of the country. These pressures had driven away a great part of the population of the cnuntry. The Grand Juries of Ireland constituted a great engine of op pression, inasmuch as they assumed the power of imposing heavy taxes, which the unfortunate pea sants were always obliged to pay. He Loped that many of these things would be attended to. He hoped that there would be a law to insist on the residence of the superior and inferior Clergy in their respective districts, as one means of instructing and civilising the people. If these things were attended to, he could assure their Lordships, that they might look up to Ireland as their best bulwark. The present Administration of tie Government in Ire land was entitled to his highest praise; the rulers of that country had shewn every possible attention I to the wants of the people, and exhibited the rigo rous justice tempered with mercy. On the whole, .he conceived that the causes of the calamities which affected this country were so remote, that they could not be removed by any casual interference uscd upon the spur of the moment. The Marquis of BUCKINGHAM asked, if, after - his Noble Friend , s ', i '" ti the eloquent erpotltion that hid jest le.e. s 5 ,;,, the state of Ireland by any man who would sav, then 4TI ingliir; 4: 1 ;l t. : 141 to be entered into respecting the state of tl li ',. i t try ? It was, as h i s Noble Friend had tells; 4‘.-- ' l. ailnl-dowupdoallutdhoeppaumsthoseridtyns,tfiotih)e; and, stateme fer nts e th ; t : r .._ l l 4 6.4. 4 ships had just heard, he clic(' on them i n ~ ;t , i ' ll t . a mature and deliberate investigat ion state of Ireland. It was, p e rh aps . e„,. _ - -in e i yes c orn mat kat it had beets thought necessary to Adept rnea tion m ea ns o ti., m t dawn the turbulence of Ireland ; but th at nt.3611 tea s at _ sort which proved the necessity of making An ~,, q * riot bet at see e die different a uu n t year 1782 it was manifest, that the Iris:t le D',,: c is order a o m rd e e i r iut to time of war protected themselves ; and se as n 'i l t - ,,'' might rot - - / 1 4 447 . : contended, that it was necessary tr) seed a es-i.."u force to protect the Government against till, . ~ ,in lation ? If ever there was a moment for ene i : 4 , ,‘,' ever there was a moment when enquiry cred i t - LI harm, and might du much good, it was the D ~,--,": and therefore a moment mink not to b e 1 0 ,, ;„":""`i i tigating the real state of thole p. f l e e . i "" I .' . e N ov .. Marquis 'next alluded to the niiiitary est,b,ii," ' which was wholly inconsistent n !iii 4 pet inj 0 - 1 I."rnt Tee question of the military estabiislob ees at ,P . t. all mint's. There appeared ns it all the I .atitnrs (If a system that tended to a miiitary despi,tisti• Wier necessity, Ile asked, was ,',ere I:,r this vadm, army ? Where was the C' entry to h e a rk , o64 4 this standing army ? There w ere no enetties,n t b r but we were to defend the .cou:ory agenstee4" pnlation at hnme. Was due nit a mete teSIDIA 14" .. 4 he competent to that porpf:st- ? It had been i 4,1 til t the increased nrnl)er of our Co;(.nirs required .ii i ' il ii creased standing Army. I. ti c - e Colonies sele tit" : h orn t h e enemy , they c , old n t be pro,erly 50 ... . l derei as objects nf defu s e,. ‘Vliat were W e to do * i t!vse against ? What danger was there of any atta c k against them on t 1 e pa: tot the enem...? %timid t be said, that this increased military f-rce sai i n . tended to resist the tut bulence (.1 the blacks? % el , it this was the case, he rejoiced more if a . -vet in 1 • 4 ; abolition of the SI me Trade : 'or that ..TA:tsi ti inn a benefit to the blanks in the C.foutirs—.l3-ai ' thus h e was to be told, that in propertinn as We .:L n e se d beeefits on these blacks, su shut; el 'se Miiii.tai s i 1 age force to keep them in t•riLr. It was said do our newly-acquired islands in the Meditttnaneits re. quired large military gat risons. 1 ii: peen, of w ee islands, it WAS said, were to be blessed win tie En g lish Constitution, and was : 1 1:s the way ta pre them the blessing, to send a he,v4y o' military to keep them in subjection ? His Lerthiiip next adv.:min i ' the troops intended to be seat to Indii, :index nee , mons expenses incurred by the war ii that part d the world. He couid not see any necessity tur tend. mg a great force to th at countr y, and V.e only objst . I could be, that ot erecting a military Goveratant Ithroughout every part of the empire. The erring of our intended peace establishment was so great elat i it exceeded the establisiment of every year of se up I to the Peace of Amiens. In the next place, he te-uid nsk if our finances could enable us to bear sn large AI establishment ? The whole expenses of the ccu , ltrr, i %rids this establishment, wo:ild be thirty when,_. 1 with the present revenue, 41,er the interest was paid, our surplus revenue w o uld amt.w.t to no more !leis ten millions ; and he asked 11,.s wooid t!ar ~her '2O millions be raised I In the Speech from the Throne economy was recommended to the country, and was this intended expenditure a proof cl economy! ea far from any economy having taken dlacc the salaries of certeia officers were increased ; the Civil 'Alva in arrear, and the salary of £4o' .(J .t year ;mai to Le Secretary of the Admiralty cluing war, teas to be . continued ; ss hereas, it should fly be A 2500 in time of peace. All these things did, more than era, make enquiry necessary. The Earl of I 3 LESSINGTON defended the peace establishment—not as a permanent, but as a temp rary establishment, which he conc , ived the present state of Europe rendered absolutely necessity. The Militia would not answer the purpose of any sadden emergency, because they cold,/ not be kept up in time of peace ; and before they could be called vita great deal of mischief might take place, in case any unforeseen danger should arise. He denied the as sertion that Ireland was a conquered country ; and. 'the military occupation of Ireland promoted theta.- culation of wealth, and enabled the farmer to get better price for his produce. The great caose ot the evils of Ireland arose out of the want of capital, aid the dread of English capitalists settling si.ere from circumstances which arose out of t!!e rebellion. He fully agreed that the agricultural interests of the whole kingdom were greatly distressed, and he hoped some effectual remedy would soon be adopted to allenax the miseries of the people Lail BATHURST could not see any ground fat a motion of this kind, winch void not produce any practical good t. but, on the contrary, must goad . 1 embarrass the operatons of the Government. 11 the conduct of Ministers was disapproved of, the amt. regular proceeding would be to move an Mavens • the House for their dismissal. The , m ilitary 'stab' lishment was to be discussed on Friday, and dirty fore he saw no occasion for an enquiry now on that subject, and on that account he would not then go into the question of the army : he would merely 117, • that every year the principle of keeping up a standing army in the time of peace was recogitised as a lota' sure necessary to keep up the balance of powtr rs Europe. As to our expenditure, no cmapat ison could be made between the present and former times.. — (Hear, hear.) If the whole army were now to be i disbanded—if a red coat was not to be aced n the country, still the expenditure in pensions and Per"! belonging to the raitita: y establishment wou:a nee the whole expenditure of Lord Chatham's war. it r te state of Ireland called for inquiry, then, let there be a specific motion made for an inquiry to that etiect • act let it not be mixed with any motion for goingino the state of the nation. There was no plan bid eosin as to the measures to he discussed in case this.Cem rnittee was entered into. The question of lit/its was one of so difficult and intricate a nature , that i could furnish no just ground for an inquiry of i . kind. Hitherto forty thousand men had beial 111,:111. tented in Ireland for the last ten years; and he .:b .ea if it was too much at this time to keep up twenty -hat thousand men there ? On the subject of the Agn ew ; tural distresses of the country, which fie by no mean at meant to under-rate, he could net but observe, th at 1 ... the occurrence was not at all singular, but the Iglu r a' Idd' COO 004 1 01 ISO *ll