Star. — London, England, 1807-08-04 00:00:00

r itterteci to the contrary, that the Houle had never' looked with an eye of indifference on the iaterelts ot irelaini, and he could anfwer for it. that on the part bl the pi-cent G , veramenr, it would ever be their Mott ardent and Boccie with to pay every attention to th fe interells and to promote them to the utrnot• Of their power ; but he could nor conceive that was to be dun.. by calling on the Hoof: at that moment, to ad pi a rehilto ton which direelly militated againft the meaftsies they had fo lately paged, and thereby Induce a belief that they had done that which was likely to roduce difcontenis. The Right Honour able Gentleman had made this refolution the ground work to introduce a variety of arguments, which, in his opini• n, were very irrelevant and unttecetfary.— lie would not, however, trefpafs on the time of the H .ute by following him into to wide a field, but would con -lit himfelf, after the few obfeivations he had made, tvi h moving the previous queftioto The SPEAKER then read the original motion, and having put the previ .u• queltion. Mr. G RATTAN rote, and laid, that basing been alluded to on the prefent evening as well as on a fo r mer i-ccafil•n, as an authority relpeCting the par ticnla. Rate ot 'octane!. he would with to make a few obfe , vations on the piefent motion. With refoeft to the Bills that had fo lately gaffed the Houle, he would fay, that if he had voted at all, it would certainly have been for the fhortet term of their du ra,ion, and then he would have voted fr r the Bills Ne expreffed !rime& in terms of high admiration of the fentiments which had juft been delivered by his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Sheririaa), in bringing forward the refolitti-n which he had fills tnitted to the c. nfideration of the Honfe ; fentiments he Paid, which excited in him the deenett gratitude, and which mull excite the fame in the biretta of every Irifhman, from the very kind and favourable opinion they conveyed of the loyalty, zeal, and attachment if the people of that country to the g..veriment f this. The very eloquent and animated manner in which thole fentiments twee del:acted, could not tail to make a deea impt Ai in on all alio acre interetted for that part of the to iced t mpi.e : and it he d ffeted with his Right Hon. Friend in any refpeet in the pre fent t.cc.tfion.it was n .t in the fentiments thernfelves, bit in the particular din eet.on of them. •His Right H n. Fr icntt had limed, that be t h e ught the tiaffing of the late hill , (•he infurretion and the army bills); was not necelftty ; for his own part, he ci uld nro but tsiff!r wilii :um mud pointedly on that head.— His Riolit Honourable Ftiend had alto Rated, that there had always been a French parry iu Ireland.— He allowed the jaitice of that Itatement ; hut he begged the Houle, and his Right Hon Ftiend to recolle6l, that there WAS a very great difference b e tw e e n a party 'hat had exilled, and a party .hat • now exiled ; and not only that, trnt there was alio a great difference in the times, and now that France was become Inch a fair antic power, and a French patty exiited in Ireland, that was alone in his opinion a good teal n for adopting a Rrong meal - tire. There might he times when the commot, law of the land was by no means fufficient t .r the Wel and lenatity of the country ; and when that i• the cafe, firm g mcafwes mull be retorted to. He did not mean to fay that the people of behind were in general dui-af fected :on the contrary, he jointed with his Right Hon. Friend, in the belief that they were generally loyal and fi only attached to the Government of this count! y. It was not, however, It.fficient to fay that par. icular counties were Lindh:tubed. Mr. Jullice Fox, he had no doubt, was very right in what he had laid of the counties of Tipperary, Wexford, and Kilkenny, but there might be difcontented parties in odic, quarters, which were foffieient to juflify the extraordinary p-Avers given by the Bills lately paired. His Rik,ht i ion. Friend had Rated that the people of Ireland were in a (late of ot4eft tranquillity, and that a pet fim ot the htghett authority in another place had given it as his opinioo, that the Arms Bill was unnecefroy. That high authority might think fo, but he cr old not agree with him on that head.— The great obj.et of the Arms Bill teemed not to be fully under Rood ; it had in view the difatming, not the great mats of the people, but certain portions of I them who wet e rebels, and who went about the coun. try to the bottles of farmers and gentlemen who wet e known to hare arms, and plundered them of the fame,', to tile them for rebellious purpoles, and one of the ! l chief objeEts of the Bill was to take from thole rob ' bens the power of doing that. Another °tried of the A& was to prevent compulfory oaths from being adminittered, and other matters which tended to pro more and eliffule infurreCtion. He allowed that thofe Alts were unconititutienal, and alluded to the dying requelt of LordKil warden, which had been frequently quoted ; that Noble Lord had, however, given his entire approbation to Alts of a fimilar tendency,— Lord Yelverom, alfo, who was univerfally allowed in Ireland to be a conllitutional Judge, had faneirmed fimilar meafwes in 1796 and 1798. There had alfo been at that time a very cr ntiitutional Attorney General and Solicitor General, the former of whom had drawn the firei Bill introduced on that tubjeCt. When he raw therefore that the molt conflitutional Lawyers had all agreed in the necedity of retorting to fuch meafures, much as he admired the eloquent arguments of his Right Hon. Friend, he mull fay, l that if he were to be called on again, he would, for the falety and fecurity of Ireland, vote for thofe acts. Informer times the Legiflature had paired aCts of a fimilar kind againit different Mothers of the Public peace, fuch as againfl the White Boys in 1776, and afterwards againft the Hearts of Steel and Peep of Day Boys. He could not therefore think that the people of Ireland could conceive that Mottle was in different to their rights, and CArtiefs of their intereils becaufe they had paired thole Ails. He was certain , that much ttronger Bills than tilde would not do half the mifchief to the freedom of Ireland, that a revival of the old diiturbances and inturreetions would.— Gentlemen who thought othern ife forgot the prefect filtration of the country, they toroot that France was at our doors : and it was neceittry to remind them, that in fuch a fiturinn we were not to look at the Rate of things on the mere principle of right and wrong, but en the invert:an necellity of predemina i • hog cil cumitances. It had been the invariable prac tice to fufpend the mdt conuitirtional laws in the cafe of an invafi .n, and when there was a French party in Ireland, we might do at one time what we would not do at another. He thought the Bills necefLuy for the heater fectirii y of the country againft horatiori and thilurbance, and he voted for them not for the purpofe of extending the powerot the crown, I but to rave the cenntry froth rttrt, i-te was forty to have taken up fo much of the tittle (tithe Houle ; but he could not, for the reafons he had sriven, help fay ing thus much on the flobjee of thnfe ass, in which he differed from his Right Hon. Friend. He then adverted to that part of the motion, which had for its immediate ebjeff an inquiry into the (late of Le land ; and in confidering that fubjeCl, he fhould divide it into three held, viz. Education, Acricul site, ani Religion. W.th refpeet to the firtl pa• t, Education, he thought plans might eafilv be adopted, which would ao ros ee the miff beneficial purples. There were in Ireland corfiderable funds appropriated for the advancement of the education t.f the people, hilt thole funds had been wooly mifapplied; to much fo, that dimwit they am dotted to upwards of scoot. a year, they only fupported 18 free fcholars. Much ineptiry had frequently taken place on this fubjeet ; and it had hren found ca rat the matters had not done their duty. and the fut.& had been greadv ;dtted, and much m fufed. He had himself taken coefider able pain , on this (Wife, and'ltoew that the prefent matters were moll' ot tiom god men. There mull theref re have been great rnifmana.!ement in thole funds hatina, hen experi , .1, with on producing a greater rune nr of fret scholars than t 8 He thought it would he better than to have the prefent number of fcfrools, to Submit to h.tve tw • great fchools, fOr the education he higher orders ; lot when a little fchool was planted. it was forty pat aliaed in ope rations. By the law of Iteland, there Ili Adel be a free fehool is. ever y dittcele. and these beim: 34 din cefes in the country, the!, ', g in to be 34 ce r an fchnols; and if thole were a:'dett to two e a t public fchools, he though! thole w Itilficiei t for the education of the hiAlter or.lets. By the law , d I eland these mud he a fc.o of in every I -Al rih, st bit ed in number to 2200 t.4lllile- ; . 1 •C C ae,e o ft w ever, mote than aoo foools, and tr. fe only eslncio ed r 1.000 perf its It there was a ch lin ever* A• ri h, I e 'Fought that wou d he inffic en, for the edoca tion r f the c mm n who •• et:. in hi of a people of a literati lion f mind, and given to our tOirs of that n owe. l'he fc n I neat( on tt hieh he fhnuld otch, tva• the Agriculi ore cut the color ty He a 01-gized to ti e Hoot toi a trodocing thi• fub u-fich he fh -tut! no. 11 ve (foie. had it t been urdcr c r.fid tati n of the H site durio, the lateAd mini 'ration. In 'his article the great ••hjeet would be the modification of , vthei, •1 f ete were two modes, he fait. by which rya es might be modified; one was, a mode in which the farmers and owners ofiand paid, f• much In hay, fo much for corn, &c. which WAS an idea recognized. Another method was commu ration by land ; but this had not been fo much in praCtice All the ditturbances in Ireland by the White B •ys the He.nts of Steel, the Peep of Day Bor. and the Thrathers, had arifen from the op preffi nof t) thes. It this bone of contention voild once be removed, ii would do more for the peace of the country than could well be conceived. The Houk oeed not pledge itfelf to any meafttre but he was fore they could not proceed too fpeedily : and ' there was no grievance, the removal of whicn would give filch general fatisfaCtion as that of mites. The next objeeion which he Should touch, was religion ; aid, on this head, we had nrs right to inquire farther than as to the probability of its influencing the Roman Catholics to form alliances with, our enemy, who are of the fame perfuafi . n. The quellion then to be con fidered was : Would the Catholics join the natural enemy ? If they did not, if they fought againfl him, las they (hared in our dangers, they should (hare in , your rights. He had no doubt but the great ma jority of the Catholics in Ireland would take up arms againft the common enemy, and he was the more confident in this, from what had lately taken place. He then adverted to the Addrefs of the Pro tellant Grand Jury to the Catholics in the county of Kilkenny at the late Aflizes, in which the Grand Jury congratulated the county that there was not a fingle perfon to be tried for (edition or diflurbance of the public peace. And the Catholics, in their anfvrer,i attributed the peaceable and tranquil (late of the I county to the harmony and unanimity fubfifling be I tween the Proteff ants and Catholics ; andthey pledged themfelses to join the Proteflants in preferring the I p eace of the country, and in uniting againff the cern , mott enemy and preventing the growth of French I principles, and the evil of French domination. From • fuch fpecimens of harmony he hoped the belt results; and if the people of Ireland faw their situation in its true light, if they had (lrength of mind to bear their calamities with fortitude, the care and attention of Parliament could not fail to mite them. in the ftrongeff and clofeff bonds of union. It would not be neceffary for them to look to Holland, to Genoa, or to Switzerland, to fee the effees of French inter ferettce, which had entailed, on them, in return of their ancient rights, a (late of the bafefl flavery and 'the viten oppreffion. They would rather look with gratitude to the zra of 1779, when they recovered their trade, and to that of 1782, when they reco vered their Conffitution ; and, impreffed with thole advantages, when they law Parliament attentive and delirious to remove thole difadvantages under which they (fill labour, and which were prefunsed to be done away by the Union, he had no doubt but they would all join with heart and hand in combat the common enemy; and we might then hid defiance to any power that might attempt to attack our united Empire. He therefore fully approved that part of his Right Hon. Friend's motion, which went to a confiderati rn of the (fate of Ireland, but not of that which aanded to and condemned the two Bills lately paired. Mr. DILLON fpoke fhnrtly on the fame grounds, and exprefied his approbation of the arguments ufed by his Right Hon. Friend who fpoke Mr. WINDHAM Paid, that no man was more im. prefied with the importance of Ireland than he was ; that the inhabitants of that country were in general loyal he had no doubt,but that there exilled a French party there every man mull acknowledge. if the late meatilres were harth, they were to by neceflity ; and being fo, he mud object to all declamation upon their feverity. When his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Sheridan) indulged hirnfelf in this way, he fhould recollee he was (purity(' a willing hot se, which, if inhumanly goaded, might throw his tidcr. He was doubly fearful of holding -Ist expe&tations to Iteland wl en he tecolleeed the dmited means we had of la ; istying them. lie did not appruve of that part Of his Right Hon. F s : iend's rootimn which c. ndemned i;AI Lad recently been done, with the reit he hear tily concurred. Lord W. RUSSELL lamented, that at the time in which, above all things unanimity was imp or t a nt, it fhnuld be though t neceffary to r-fort to thole vio lent meafures from %illicit the dilafrettion of the peo ple of Ireland had originated. It was empl , yed as an excufe for them that France was more powerful, and that in confequence the French party in I eland was mere confident ; but the fame expedients were retired to when France was in a condition rf com parative imbecility. lie would he glad to leitn how far it was intended to proceed in this fpirit, and if it were for ever to he forgotten that v'ercion was the parent of difaffeelion ? Was Ireland conft intly to be reduced to the ghte of dependance by which a con quered country was difgraced ? He had heard the Right Hon. Mover talk of conceffiiins to the Irina doting the prefent reign, and he was ferry to be obliged to er , qtrire what they were? True it was, tat the At Uni in was pafred, but none of the pralines had been fulfilled, t which a Noble Lord (CaltLreagh) oppofite to him was the organ, and in the confi knee of Melt that Union had been Os t tined He hoped thc fi'mfe would concur in the svoti , m of hi, Right Hon. Fe iend, equally from a re gard to the security el the lifter Wand, and of our own. Mr. LOCKHART exprtMd furprife, that the Right Hon. Gentleman who had brought forward !his .n( ti , m, had reprefented the Acts of a Legifla tore, that was dittitignilheil by Cofmopolitan benefi cence, as the es il of which Ireland had to c..mplain. So tar loom being a fulpenfion of the Conditwion, t etc eVis were but the exeicife of it. To call forth the p wets given by the Conflitutinn for the protec ti .n of the peaceable and loyal fuhjefts, was but to put the C nititution in force. He was happy that the exa:nple of the Right Hon. Gentleman had not been followed by the other Right Hon. Gentleman who fpuke from the fame tench, and had pointed out certain meafures for the relief of Ireland. As to the meafure refpeCting education, he entirely agreed with .hat Hon. Gen leman ; and as to a compfition for tytlaes, if that fbould be necArit y, he Rioted not op. pole it, provided that comp , fricn were to be pro greflive with the times, and as well fecured as tithes ate in this country to the clergy. As to the queflion oh emancipation, his difficulty was, that the princi ples of the reliAion would in the event of the Catho- lics getting into power be dangerous to the Protef taut afcendancy. He thought it infinitely better that the Government [liquid be strong and able to com• mand opinions, before it Should concede boons, and he hoped that the Government would at ail times be competent to infure the obedience of the people. He lb uld vote againkthe motion, becaufe it implied a dereliCtinn of duty on their parts, and a cenfure upon the afts of the Legiflature, the neceffity for which bad been admitted on all hands. Mr. HERBERT 'obterved, that it was by the adoption of such plans as had been fuggened by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Grattan), that the pco pie of Ireland were to be gained over. He could nor tupport the motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman oppofite, in its prefent fhape ; but, if he would con tent to leave out all after the word " Sefflon," he fbould then vote fur the motion. ' Mr. SHERIDAN rnfe to exprefs his readinefs to comply with the fuggefiinn of the Hon. Member, a readinefs which he had befcre intimated in the fpeech which preceded his motion. The SPEAKER acquainted the Hon. Member, that no amendment could be made on the original motion after the previous queßion had been once mn•ed. Mr. SHERIDAN replied, that he prefumed the Right Hon. Gentleman would withdraw the Pre• vioui Mr. 141,ISKISSON remarked acrofs the table, that the oppartnnity was gone by. Mr. SHERIDAN refumed, that Ite never in his life raw a quellion more grofily milapprehended.— mua Gentlemen were ready to admit that the former past of the motion was proper; and what followed the word " Seffion,' which was deemed fo ohjeetion able ?. It was this, " and.the performaoce of which woul.l be a violation of the rights of the people of Ireland, and a fubverfion of the principles of our free Contlitution." What could be the objection to thefe terms, and the fentiment they conveyed ? Was not the main argument for the introduelion of thole lawi, that they thould be temporary ; and was not this the leading object in thefe expreirions, without imputing any thing dircreditahle to the meafures ? They were limited to three years, obvioufll tecaufe their permanence would be a violation of the Confti lotion, as flared in the concluding wnids. The Hon. Gentleman below himleemed to have !incited to the opening fpeech with great anxiety ; he carnal' , willed he had littered with equal attention, and that t he Hon. Gentleman's anxiety had not dellroyed his capacity for attention. All he (Mr. Sheridan) had raid, was, that the Mts. paired furpended the Confti tution with regard to Ireland. He was not to be expelled to produce proofs f what was fo palpable ; if tallimony was required, it was incumbent on Mi. niliers to produce it in illutiration of thole grievances by which thefe tiatutes could alone be jullified. To proceed other wife would wholly reverie the natural' order of things. Had the Gen•lemen on the other fide Rated any fuch evidence, allowing even for the , fake of argument, that there were the proper reme- ' dies for thofe grievance? ? The Houle had refuted to take there aets into its annual review, and all he fought was, that this pledge Would be given, that the rubjeet would be reconfidered next feffion. It was laid that we were firft to make the Irifh obedient, and then confer boons ; that was, that we were to excite their tears, as preparatory for their love; but this was not the happieft way of attraeling the affec tions of mankind. Then when he (Mr. Sheridan) talked of the awkward manner in which the favours of this country were conferred on Ireland, the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lockhart) raid he was " taken aback." He (Mr. Sheridan) not having had the advantage of a naval education, did not underftand lea phrales ; but he thought he could comprehend this, that obligations might be fo bellowed, as to leave no imprefilons of gratitude. He did moil ear neltly deprecate the folly of waiting for that period to make ceflions, when it could trot be done with a good grace, and yet when you could not dare to withhold them. He had r whirl to reply to the eulagy oldie Honourable Gentleman (Mr Lockhart), on Bikini Initiation. He ouot indeed to be fi!ent upon it. as the Honourable Gentleman had employed felquipedalian term (alluding to the word 1:of thofroi tan) With which lie Wai is igruirani as of ifit marine [)!trare of the Honourable oaut.:min ; but whatever rnigl.t be the occult Meaniug rrftl itt learned expre:7. n, he (Mr. Sheridan) was confi: dent that any encomium would he wholly ialapplica. Me as tar as Britiflt legiflati to could be explained by its enaftments, with rea„ard to Ireland. A Right Honourable F , ierd of his (Mr. G , rtta I) Lad Rated, that the moll fori , us grievances ':f the Nth odgi - oared in the tvthes. He (Mr Sheridan) (lid not pro. furne to know how far the country was op pt dr.:A from this caufe ; but if the Heart of Stecl Boys. the Whhe B tys, the Threfhers, and others slit 4ffs.-9ed, were is arms on that accoant, at l-all the ditcontetus of Ttr land were to be attributed to fume other motive than the favourite one of the French t.6tion. A Ria 3- 1 Honourable Friend of his bad aficed whether a gtr fun would find fault with a beau. v mrrely becatife flu: had a !Ample ti;aar. her f ace ? a quediou Come gallantry. Ceirainly no liilhman w add. But be would fay—" My dear beauty, tin' a patch noon the plmple,but don't rut a mafk on all your (ace." There might he a dark tprit in the country, but du not put a maflc on the whole liberties of Irelani. An , ther Hon. Geraltman held out a d.-aftiiite to which he himfelf could not agree. He (Mr. Lockhart) w a s for deprising Irelaid of the bleffings of the Biitifh Conllitution until after they had gone thy., sigh the hour of trial, and had made all the great exertions neceffary in the impending cries. " Et proptor virzrn vita perdere cantos But he (Mr. Sheridan) was not defiroas of making experiments on their valour and their loyalty. He was fur encouraging and animating them in the caufe, by making them know and feel their advan tages, and teaching them to regard their connetlion wi:h Great Britain as their lecurity and their hap pines. He was not for waiting till their virtue and courage had been difplayed by their achieve ments in the field, in order to give them after wards wl:at he thought were prelimioary tights.— He &fired to knew whin the Colo 'lie , of I , e 1 end htd fhewn themfelves a brave and diairguifhd race. He knew th:tt we mutt troll, in cafe of dan ger, to a Catholic Let him be (hewn that he was wrong, not by affertions, but by lath, or he muff Rill c , nfider the Catholics of Ireland cqn..lly Inyal and zeal us and ready to fhed their blood in their country's defence, with the other parts of t he cotasmurity. With refped to what he had laid con• cerning the Bill brought in and wi hdra wn by the late Minillers, and which had been alluded to in the de bate, he mutt obllrve that he did not bold that Bill cheap but th-ugh he conceived its objeEl, he Rill th , :ught it was beginning at the wrong end, and that the lower claffis were the fir ft whom we thnold bee in with and take that as a fubfequent meafure of courfe. He eves thought that the adoption of that Bill, unlefs accompanied wi h fomething of this kiud, could in o tend to fe the lowerclaffesgreatly. It might, arnong them,create jealouly, andincline them to think that the gentry had got all they wanted, and that reformation, as it concerned them, was not to go hand in hand v. ith the amelioration of the higher orders. The fpecific • objeft of that Buil, however, he highly approved of. That Bill went to take away all impediments in the way of promotion from brave and meritorious officers, to whore advancement and reward a limit was now afligned of the moll revolting nature, and who found themfelves molt unjuilly, jolt as they had arrived at a fituation by their atchievements that dc. ferved promotion and honour, in the fame propor tion compelled to fuhmit to privation and degrada• tion. Which was the belt mode, in this preffiog of proceedirg, with the people t f lielaral was the queflion at ilfue. Ta difarm them, to tell them we [hall wait to fee their behaviour in the time of trial, to witnefs the gteatnefs of their efforts ? No! He would encourage and animate them by folid benefits and privileges. He would even fend them againft the enemy with their takes, and the c. , nflitution muf fled round their b. dies for their armour. and we Ihould find them ready to lofe the lali drop of their blood in their valiant efforts in our defence He muff now recur to what he fet out with. He was confi dent that the u:mofl benefit would refult to the Em pire at large—but at any rate the manifellation of a difpufitiun by that Huufe to acknowledge the impor tance of the lubjed, and the expreffir:n of an in ention to enter ferinully into it, would be a pacifier, and `muff affifi in procuring a fenfe of attachment and obedience. When King Charles the Fit applied to Mr. Selden, and cm:inked of him what was, in his opinion, the bell remedy for rebehian, what was Mr. Selden's anfwer ? 4. Seek for and remove the caufe." This advice he muff apply to the Bate of Ireland. Mr. GRATTAN and Mr. SHE RIDA N mutually explained. Mr. FULLER thought that the real fituation of Leland required examination by Come perfons there properly qualified, loch as members of the Royal Intlitution—(a laugh)—or the S'ciety of Arts, and other perfons well qualified. He hoped Parliament would do fomc•hing to render the Union between the two countries not nominal but real. M• .COCH RA NE JOHNSTONE ffint.ld vote for the motion. If Ntli..ment fhould negleel the Rate of Ireland, it-would bring itfelt into ditrepute. The queflion being put, the Houle divided on Mr. Sheridan's motion—Ayes 33—Noes 76—Majority againft it 43. When the Gallery was again opened, we found Mr. WINDHAM on his legs, making force obfcrvations fpeeing the reverel refolution, he in , ended to move relative to the .Krmy Returns, at different period.. After fettle convet ration with Lord Caitleredgh, who had fimilar refolutions to move, it was agreed, on the Speakeros fuggiflion, that the Noble Lord fhould move an adjournment of one week on each of Mr. Windham's refolutinns, which was agreed to and done accordingly, Mr. W.'s objetl beins merely the enter. ing t,t - his refolutions on the J , urnalc, after which Lord Caftlereagh's refolutions were read, agreed to, and entered. VOLT/WT*SEIM Sir THOMAS TURTON was happy to find that the difcipline nV ae Voluntet.r. was to be improved, and wjlhed to give his Ma- Minifters an opportunity of Rating their it t. ntions on that bead, as well as tivith refpedt to the Training Bill, which he looked upon as neeeffary to beep up the Volunt •t•rt. I ord CASTLEREAGH declarea, that every attention wenald be paid to the Volunteers in order to improve their difcipiine, and lame a full attendance upon ;wale As to tie Training Bill. flepa had been taken to coned the lifts, and in an early part of next Seth n a no afure would he breuet 'orwar,t. founded upon it, f r the eftablifhment of a 10c.,1 Militia in the different counties. Several Military Returns acre or tered, on the ryn•ion of Lord CAS I LEREAGH. and feveral prefented by the SECRET ARY at WAR, which were ordered to be printed. Adjourned at la.