Star. — London, England, 1811-07-05 00:00:00

, , a . . t.I . . . • . • . . . . ateer not t h e eas e; why s hould img leso aat en sassbes aisseters,ke wool& be responsible for nothing bett his /to the adoption nf sac% measures muselves. We mast P4I4,I4.IIENTARr PROCE,E,DINGS. OP . V you shall pay me a large sum in gold, *Unsold own BM. Ille.wouli tate no fartherettarge of it.but icons. to a forced circidat with all its train of ca. .b could not be &unit Such practiCes, if wowed sit in the Committee teem curieisity. w I am," said !lamities. He could see little difference between the in, would create an explosion in the country like the he, 0 Ale father of this Bill, but I won't undertake scheme of his Noble Friend and the making of Bank sioUtat OF LORDS. JULY i. • shock of an karthqUake• -- ( ') HOW•. —Was a tomato to* its nurse. I hays brought it bare to the nur- notes e legal tender. But v..that said the nurses, as his ?he House met in a Committee of Prtvikgcs on the tanbury l be turned out by ejectment, and sent off starving, wry, and let the nurses takes of it." (Larghisx.) Noble Frend called them ? 'The Secretary of State Peerage Cowie, ia which tile Judges delivered their opinions on a I q uestion that had -been referred t o then. Their ans wer i n su b. because be ,c mid net i rt what it was imposeible to ' He would agree to the clause for limiting the isstie I has said, thet in 1797 the legal tender was not resat.. 1 . ince was, that the presumjulon of the legitimacy could only be pro curet Would it be said that that was right tHe of Dank-Rotes to their ()reseal amount. during the 1 ted to, because it was not then deemed necessary.— • 'stained by proofs of the non access. The•farther proceeshngs wauted to remove the temptation to this, which must oPeratiou nf the Bill, unless, indeed, heist ;As be (Earl Gtey) then took part ill most of the de- 1 upon this causewere subsequently postponed to the secool tuts- 1 . 1 . Say of next ms . After Fern , the How „ turne d .at l eant while a landlorsl tumid demand 500 for se4oo. i factory reasons to the contrary, Still th was but a 1 bates on that sue ;sits be must say, that Mr. Pitt al- I about five o'clock. • lAs to Lis definition, be Irtnald repeat, that a pound measure preparatory to che adoption of the Book En- 1 ways discountenanced the idea of making notes a le. GUINEAS AND BANK - I COTES. sterling was that which a banker would write in bis try System. The question was this; if g old could ral tender. What s. picture of vacillation del tha On the order of the day fur going int.) ,Commit- book as a credit for a pound sterling. Here he re- not be got, must you not have something to make a pvesent Ministers present. only within three or four gee on Eerl Stanhope's Bill, prated his former statement respecting two entries legal tender ? The Entry System was much better days! At fi rst they were to throw out the Bill, after- The Marquis of LANSDOWNE rose to state to at a banker's ; in each of Which, though the one be than locking up a quantity of money in a chest, par. wards they faltered; they seemed to have sat in Ca. the linnse the nec,essky of considering More fully the for notes, and the other for cAsh, a similar entry ticulatly in eases insureon or invasion. .The billet Council on it, day after day, and at l est t h ey principles on which the Bill proceeded, as it went to would be made at - to the amount in pounds sterling, thing might be done without a bank of gold deposit. come forward and supported it boldly. They seeme d meet measures which had in other places always Pm' and a similar claim and credit given to the payer. A million a year might be caved in expellees, which incapable of making a determination on so important dated the most calamitous eifects. This subject, it iThat was his definition, and to him itappeAred sa- might go to the general improvement of the country. and vitAl a subsject of public interest, and shewed t•., !,e; appeared , bad arisen from the resolution' of a Noble Itisfactory. His Lordship proceeded-eo So help me The Bank proving its solvency, he would contend unfitness for their situations. Attended a s our ; dee rs e, . : , • ; ,4 Lendholder to receive only that -which washis legal !Goo, I would sooner be a s cavenger, and sweep the that the plan of entries might be advantageously re- necessarily were by greet calamities, vilioh, Co. 4. e ; ,e . eight. The effect of the Bill must be, in the end, to letreets, than I wouid oppress my tenants. What is sorted to, and might furnish the means of a legal knew! we Must all he compelled to suffer, we soug h t Is.' property, 6 [116 r wake Bank-notes a legal tender. The dispoeition, Ithe object, in such circumstances, to a land-holder of tender, for which purpose Bank-notes were ohjec- for ?elite only in temporary pr ed ations, which, while el - . hitherto, to take those notes was in the knowledge great property of ,a, few dirty pounds more ? What deniable. Payments in gold were now obviously they appeared to abate tie symptoms, were i n f act every one had, that he had his remedy by law, which ought to be his first interest and object ? Why, his I made the pretexts for injustice. It was plain that only strengthening and confirming the sure . pro „, would protect his property and rights; but they !country ought to be his first object.—(ll:enehear.)-- 1 that ought not to continue, and the system of a of the disease. If they veined their e c • should reflect how that matter might stand after this Yes, Noble Lords, and my Noble Friends, may well Land Mink or Deposit Entries might prevent it. Lordships would not involve it in difficulties of which pal w as passed. If the landlord did not take care to call out hear, hear. I den's mind those hear:! All That was the grand advantage of the plan, andit they could not foresee the termination H e s h ou ld pyotect himself against the consequences of deprecia- the public ought to hear me ! Nobody, I will yen- wes necessary, in order to arrive at it, to pass this oppose going into the Committee, convinced that if xion, be might be left by law without any sort Of Pro' ttire tO Say, can blame my motives, though they Bill. In the recess, if they did not do so, there the Bill passed there would be no end to the calemi. eeceion arionsoever, Where was his security to be may think me wrong ; and it is quite possible I may was no saying what mitt happen. He had thus ties, aod no'chance for the security of the p ro p ert y found? Various things might be made the circula- he wrong, though I must be convinced of that !" explained his ideas, an should leove the subject of the country. ping medium.. JElories or wool might ; but it was (1-lear.)—The Noble Earl then proceeded to read to the House. paid to the - Earl STANHOPE explained as to the definition. pnly to a certain extent that horses or wool could be part ot a letter from the nO inconsiderable town of Earl GREY said, the question htd been so well —The Noble Earl wanted a definition according to produced. That was not the ease with the manufae- Manchester, stating facts which proved the necessity discussed already by persons of the best information, law. What he said was, that paper and coin were i e tory of piper. Would they look for security to the of doing something speedily. Six week 3 ago, an at. that he should not trespass long on their patience.—iat per. Two things were eqttal in the eye of t h e l aw , eliscrotion of the Bank Directers ? They had seen torney's clerk there wrote for payment of the great Into the subject of land banks, deposits, entries, and ; which the law declied equal. So £lOO their practice, and the difference of opinion they held. sum of one pound, two shillings, • and sixpence. • A transfers, he should not then enter ; it wonld be time creditor of the nation were equal to 100 p oun d notes . Would they look to their sense of duty? That duty note was tendered of twenty shillings value, and two enough when any such measure was proposed ; yet, But he would say, that there never was s li d a l aw was not to the public, but to the Bank proprietors. shillings and sixpence. This attorney's clerk de. without such a measure, it was admitted that the pre- as enacted bullion of standard fineness. It was .the •1, ..-WoUl I they consent to commit all at once to such manded three shillings and sixpence for his n otice, sent Bill would not be complete. He would disclaim price of coin with the stamp on it that made tile tee - e a body, irresponsible to Pas lie powers which which the writer said he refused to Pay. -The young for others, and particularly for a Noble Lord, who der, and not that bullion which was exportable. The se il Pei liarreto had never granted even to Ministers, who attorney then refused to 'take the pound note, (and had in those discussions been alluded to with so much law said as to the landlord, that the piece o f mme y ;.t.%, could easily be rendered responsible ; with the mei- let their Lordships attend to this, and see to what it warmth, the remotest idea of his being an oppressive Iplatina might do as well as gold) was the saa d ee d. Bence, fee too, the they had used their power already so might lead, from unworthy and rascally motives), landlord. Far different were the feelings and cha- The first axiom of the first book of Euclid would As to produc,e such effects on the course of Exchange saying that it was no lawful tender. The other pe t . rat ter of that Noble Lord. He alsohelieved the No- prove his definition correct in principle. He neve r derine the last 5 years? He understood that Ministers son went for a guinea, and got it ; but the attorney ble Earl spoke most truly, when, in allusion to the said any thing of compulsory payments He e 4„, . ' 0 ,4 ' intended to propose a clause which would have a still in the mean time had gone and entered the debt in great itsotte with which PROVIDESCE had blessed him, plained other points. mere serious effect than the Bill as it stood. If, how- Salford Court. Then came a charge of 95.2 d. ex. he had ever been a liberal and humane landlord.— Lord GREY did not see that this mathematical f . ' Aver, the Bill must pass, he hoped that, at least, one ade pences ; making altogether a sum of rel. I Is. Bd. But he could not say, that proorietors.of land ought illustration threw much light upon the oihject. It deion would be made to it, to afford some security because the man had not a guinea' with hill. The not to protect themselves against this mode of inter- Pont . ut him in mind of the trathematical definition of a agaiere farther means of increasing the depreciation. master of the.attorney was complained tolen the oc. fetin with their management of their property and p that it was what had neither It ngth, breadth, In . 1 !It: present radically unnatural and fundamentally ,casion, and he ordered his clerk to return 7s. Theldomtic affairs ; or that they might tot justly feel et- ea-I.:less. A :listened stale of things, it was not possible to adopt mune writer told him that he had seen many mane -lit cost tl7eir duty to protect themselves ageinst e. , Lord WESTMORELAND, in defence of Minis, any reme d y commensurate with the evil; but a clause factures: of linen from Ireland, who were offerinte subject had not been in b 7 , . species of clamour which was raised. 'I he. : •oele terS. said that this st might he inserted, to prevent the issue of more Bank- 20 per cent. for gold r being asked why they did se , Lord (King) stood eminently distinguisled for his them- They were at first averse to the p r o d uced bo •/ ' e • suites than the ntunber in circulation at the time of they answered, that their Midsummer rents wets • qualities, and he had openly end fairly explained and they saw no necessity for it : but if it was found that (, , . aws , the present Bill. That would be some se- neatly due , and gold only oeuld he taken. ahe . I I avowed his motives and objects te, the proceeding there really was en evil to remedy, they must remedy le.' curity against then, abuse of to great a power. 'The letter went - nn to state, that the writer ben:-...:d that , which had led to the introduction of this Bill. He it. The Noble Lord who had given the notice tie general principles of the Bill tvent to sanction measures twenty per cent. was daily offered for cel i. _ V-1,,,, r ), had defended himself on every ground of`equity and his tenants, it was said, had beenhardly used, and Ministers nae , e. radically wrong, always mischievous, and founded on —All this arose from compelling peetnetit in gold, justice, according to the known and establishel laws his patriotism and 'great merits ilad been e xtoll e d ; a View of things totally contrary and foreign to all the whin gold enough could not be e et His oltimete (if England. He (Earl Grey) would not approie of , but when. it was foued that patriotism and private ' • opinions of our anceeeorr— directly contrary to the object was nnt this Bill, but to enable them t o ma ke, taking £5(4) for £4 OO ; but the Noble Earl admitted I itetereet wife SD CloWly linked together, • light in which the Bank of Englend bad been re. in an advantageous h e u' eee, a new legal ten d e r, . that bank n..tes might be depreciated. If that were I totally began to think diet there might po s sibly b e I; i tided ever eince its existence. In the reign of Wil- which might answer the purpose, if there were not a the case, the depreciation might run on to 70 or 80; great many patriots ; that many might teke up the it" - • , tarn 111. in an Act for raisin , * duties on Rock-salt, single guinea left. The Noble Marquis called that ' per cent. ; and he wished to know it his Noble Friend i priticiplo, and while they dernandeu their routs in N. • it was enacted that Bank-NOtes should be taken depreciation of currency, which others called ad. I would say, that, in that vise. he would continue to' specie or in paper, 10.nr 20 err cent. below par, would . at the Exchequer, provided they were not at a dis- vance in the price of bullion. lie was sorry to dif- receive paper at its nominal value ? He would hardly } have no scmple with peeing their debts .--ith this count ; the possibility of which was admitted, end ;n ; fee with him se much on this subject, foe he h a d a . agree to that, and let, by his proposition, he ought !Paper at • Par. When this cry of patriotism was ra i se d, . 1 ' that cese they were to be refused at their nortee at , greet p e:.sonal leerect for him. Ile had a hi g h o pi. to do so. Thus, then, the question was only a quo- Inn one could say how tar it might lead—no one velar. "i his was one of many instances of the care- nion of his ability and of his integrity. He temem- , lion of degrees. Might not a landlord, therefore, on I could tell how,far those who partook. ot the Noble fu. viow taken of paper circiilation. e omet hing ought beret!, also, that he was peculiarly acquainted with I principles of equity and justice, and with a due regard I Lord's sentiments might be disposed to follow hie to be dime before Parliament adjovsned. There might his Noble Father, when) he moat highly esteemed, ito his own interests, have a eight to protect himself rice till near the prorogation, k became Ministers to . example. As the Noblel,re - d had not given this nos to be a public recognition of the principles on which and he respected the Noble Marquis near him for his ! against the consequences of a depreciation of 15 or I consider what effect such patriotism might have dee paeeraurvoney should be regulated. and the mode of dutiful and affectionate conduct to dist father. He !20 per cent.? His Noble Friend said there was no the B ink's isseine its paper, which would she to the might, therefore, be permitted to seer, that he had a depreciaeion. If so, he must presume that the tenant ring the recess ;it became them, as far as they could. e' r i puhlic the care Parliament took that -the currency sort of htreditary affection for him. For his own received no injuey. Was it really to be maintained to prevent the oppression of tenants by such patriotic , 1 should not be depreciated, and which would have a part, he could conceive, without difficulty, that the cir- that there was no difference of value between paper landlords His Lordship then proceeded to ,rehire ' ! - better effect on the public mind than this ll The cuir.stances of the nies might occasion a very great and gold, after all ttiey had heard on the subject, against the existence of the depreciation. For every ~.' bill .winiid have but a temporary effect b i le . was a advance in gold. The vety circumstances of our enm. nor in the relative value of every necessary article legal purpose, Bank notes still retained their re l a tive e palliative which would only augment the strength of merce and manuf 'comes, which we mentioned, was 'of life, except a few, such as sugar and hides, which value to gold. Gold in coin and Bank notes had a . e the disease which caused the evils. lie wed not ea one cause of the scarcity. If the balance of mole lied not increased in price because they could get the relative value fixed by law, and this could not be a 1..! ..! s to go all the Imigth at once o f removing die restric. was against us, so, of course. was the course Cl ex. expertation markets opened for them, and have, tend without violating the law, by melting and ex. lions, though he thoeght that gold would come to c han c re . —That affected the mode of payments.— therefore, fallen in price ? I.ook at almost every ar- Porting the coin. The melting and exporting of • par hands Again with tile demand for it. But great Every thing must go through that trie barrier with t tick, Ind the proofs of the diminution of the value coin was illegal, and therefore by law and for every • incoevenience would arise from any violent step, by which Bonaparte bad surrounded the Lo ot - meet ; and I ° l cut'e'ne-Y were visible. He thought his Nellie. 'legal purpose, there was no depreciation (Hear. tar, the sudden fall of prices which would he the conse. if we centinued to pay our debts honourably we Friend's definiti ,n. founded on the two accounts /wan) The Noble Lord 'et the other side seta., that Ruence of the change. Could he believe there was no must send gold there. lie had never said, nor would opened by a banker, a most extraordinary one. He the dearness of all commodities was a pivot ef de. 4 • gepreciation of tuecy, &en the Bank might be per. , he say, that in extreme issue iif Bank-paper would should rather have said of a pound sterling, that it preciation ; but the rise in pricey ehe mainteined might milted o• pay a once ?Ite it so, then the same con- not occasion a detereciation. He should suppose the was what the law defined it to be—a certain quantity be accounted for on the ordin principle ot supply 'e• quinces wo:•Id ultimately resale here as in France. circulation at 15 millions, which was n o w at 5 m il. of • gold a given fineness ; and that w a s what the and demand. Coloeial produce. and goods the pro- , .. was not the military power of Bonaparte at present, lions in circulation. There was one description ot ' law entitled him to receive._ It was under this settle duce of this country, which could not find their way but the commercial regulations,' that icndt•red it ne. increase of paper for which be was extreme sorry— s i t ,which which was given by the law, that British menu• to a foreign country, were cheap, while timber and cessary to pay on the Continent in gold and silver., the country notes. He was astoeished how it could factures , agriculture, and commerce, had fl ourished other things which from the present state of the Con. We „ad the means of getting every thing that our ever have been permitted that a set of adventurers, in i to their present height ; but it was to be taken away tinent could not be easily procured, were dear. Tim- Tea commerce and maritime derninion could corn. meny places a percel of rascals, should have issued by this Bill. 'Die protest signed by cei rain Lords her and cotton lied risen 30 or 40 percent. according mend, except (;ts it appearel t gold- The moment their c;o•Isa o,s lio , Ts •r!- ^osaniis of times, without, merely said, that the measure leads manifestly to pm. to the woe of the demand, a thing not to be accoun- , e w returned to sound princip s, teed plated the. .: I perhaps, having five hundred i e. •• se , . of p ro p ert y f or ntete compulsory payments. His Noble F,iend owned ted for from this magic operation of a depreciated pa. . . on A p r oper footing, we should resent* the cntirse of i security, . Every Country Banket, ,o he sure, was that they could not stop without a legal tender, not per. But the cause o th is depreciation, they seid, 'i. I eichange to its proper level a but there would be a not of that description. He knew of one ilat had as of gold. His Bill would not give that relief to the was the excess of the circulation. He denied that ''> . Considerable rednction of prices. The most gradual much property probably as the two N o blediE.irls w h o yduable class of persons of whom he professed to be there was any such excess. He presumed the B a nk mangier of proceeding was, therefore, desirable. He sat behind him, and that was not a little matter. He the champien. which he promied. He had said the was allowed as solvent, and if it was, how could a few repeated his-opinion of the propriety of a Parliamen. bad near forty thousand a yew, which was pretty public ere, ho' was paid in Berik-notes ; and should millions mere or less make any difference, consider- . tary recognition ; his thjectinns to the bill, as adnp. gnod secarity. (41augh.) There were some others, we leave ti e tenants, certainly a class most highly ing the immease quantity of business done in this ting the orinciple of making bank-notes a legal ten. ono, that weee perfectly secure But how ma ny were deserving thei r attention, to the di ffi culties of finding counn7 ? The whole amount of the Batik of Eng. de, ; and his intention, if they ennto the Commit. there that had no seem ity at al l ? All these, under gold (o pay their rents ? Had they apt, said he, equal land nntes was only £23,(XX),000. Now £5,000,000. i tee, to propose the restrictive et iu ce bt had mentioned. a depreciation, must fail ; and it made one's heart claims with others ?He (Earl Grey) would do every per day passed through fine house in this city, end let , Earl S r ANHOPE said, his Noble Friend miscon. ache to think of the horrible consequences that must thing in his power to keep perfect faith with !he pub• any one look at the circulation in proportion that . . ceived his hill, in which there was not a Wrnd of making be the result of such failures Si' numerous families ! 1 lic creditor; ; and to ensure him, not a nominal but a } must take place in the country. and say, whether the es tompulsory paymeets. There was adiffcrence between Don't abuse the Bank too mech for extending t h e i r i real value, war in his mind a debt due to him from amount of notes was too large? Ten millions per day • • •-•' tlx two cues of a man offering a bank-note in pay. issues, when the coin had diminished ten millions.— , the justice of the country. Don't let the Noble Earl passed in this country, 60 millions per week-3,000 7,)e .. rent to %pother, who declined iteendtellinghim " you Though he differed so much fl mm his •f r iends on t hi s • fancy himself actuated by stronger feelings on this millions per annum ! The whole of the notes must ..e.. shall take it ;" and the case of one choosing to take it, subject, he yet thought, that if they talked a little subject than other Noble Lords. He had said he change hands in the course of three days business.-e when offered, but wanting to put his own price upon more tegether tipon it, their differences would die would put them ill on 3 par k but could he pmtect What signified, then, a few millions more or less in it. He reprobated in the extreme, the idea of a land- away ;as Pope said well enough, that if t h e p eo pl e the creditnr frOm the effects of depreciation ? Could the circulation. They said that we expended ninety 01 lord having to ask only £4OO, and seoing to his f different religions, who were abusing one enother, ;he provide against any depreciation ?He could not re. millions anoually ; then the whole circuleting paper i T e nant , that he would have seso o . Consider that the wouldonly agree to talk together one hour ad i lieve the stockholder from a deprecia•ion ; but yet he of the Bank would be received at the Exchequer three I t• ars ,s• pub li c cre dits was to he paid in B telt-notes, and that there wouid soon be an end to all their religious dif- , exposed the landholder to its dangerous consequences lor four times in the ear ! But he might be asked e ;., go him they were legal tenders. Was there justice in ferences. (4 lavgk.) He requested Ministers to d o The Noble Earl here noticed the extraordinary rise why, if there was no depreciation, he supported this 1. • makiog such a difference ?If a landlord and a pub- something before the recess. The alarm was obvious. on the articles of absolute necessity which had oc. measue? He could only say, that he supported it on pc creditor sere each entitled to teceive £lOO, why Don't let them delay btinging up their e n g ine ; an d curred under the depreciation of paper systems. As the same ground as his Noble Friend ( Lott' Liver- , bonld one et th em receive £120? Was not this not be quite so snailish on so important a su bject,— the creditor of the public must still be paid in paper, pool) lest the example of the Noble Lord should have , . . • gr oss inju4tice to the stockholder , to whom the land- The Noble Marquis, he observed, had not sa id di s . the only difference this Bill would meke, was, that a bed effect. for such a , proceeding Might occasion . . le d property if the country was pledged for payment s t a r . that that he would not do this if he were a Mini. the landlord who took it, should take it at its norm- depreciation where it did not exist lief •re. As to the of f il;s t lividend iHe believed when his Noble Viiend ger. With respect to Ireland, he thought it r i g ht to teal value. But suppose' the case of a landlord dis.' fatuity of Ministers, he had long been accustomed to , was Chancellor of the Exchequer, he could not have ;extend the provisions ot the Bill so that c ountry ; posed to act vindictively ; if he would not take pa. Such ear Mini But when the noble Ler] prophecied consented to such a sponge to wipe off a great part Ibut he had considered it better to discuss its prieci- per, and could not get gold, the man might be con- the great mischief that would result toen their pro i of a j ust d e bt ? If the landholder borrowed money, , pies .in thefirst instance with respect to England, lest fined in prison till lie gave gold, though paper might eeedings, he trusted, that if he found hi meet „iis. p , • bad not the lender a right to receive his principal and I e oenething loeal and peculiar should have been stArt- help it on maw process. It was admitted,. that if taken, he would do himself the credit to confess his interest in equal mediums of ealue witt those in which ed c oncerning . Ireland. winch would only have im. this Bill was carried, they mist resort to a new error, as he bad done in regard to trensactions in the borroever received his rente ? f the lend . be peded the business. liShad heard the Bill was to . legal tender. Then they would love to go round the other canaries. His Lordship supported the Bill. pledged by John Miles to Tom Stiles, had not Tom he new worded. 'net new wording might be un- whole circle of dangerous expedients, and into all the Lord LAUDERDALE was anxious to see heo • 1 • e...: s - . Miles as g ood s t right to ne paid in gold as John derstood by tbnlaWYers• and even by himselt ; but it miseries with which the system was fraught. Some the Bill could be amended in the Committee, hir I:' •, ~ Miles ? All he asked was, to pot them on a pr ! If might be, too technical tieleet easily understood by the years ego we were told, that by our system we were could conceive no amendment that would make i: 1 a n y body could chew him that all could be paid in common people, 'for whose benefit it was intended. to avoid all those miseries which we saw in other proper measure. That of his Noble Friend (L ee . * would say 'I pay in df" but if that was Foreseeing that he Might not be suprted - in many countries . • 'Ad now , it appeared we wire at last cove downe) was plausible, but he was satisfied it ooel • I