Star. — London, England, 1816-02-14 00:00:00

IN,WT . ". -.- ~a . might expect to be ranked with the military despots, of the Continent, the free Constitution or the military grandeur would in time disappear ; and if tech was the case, he considered that it required very little penetration into futurity to perceive how short and feeble would be the struggle of . the Constitution ere itakcireil, He hoped that nu Member of the House who felt that the, Supply was onesehich ought 'mkt() be granted, would retrain fronseoming forward and -- rmissfsflly resist the oppression that was threatened. It was a•mere delusion to talk of keeping up the este • blishment for a year, or any stipulated time. Mini sters should retrench and economize; then we might hope:for relief. Without those expedients were 1-e• sorted destruction and despotism would inevitably overtake us. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER felt• himwit called upon to say a very few words, by what. had fallen from the Honourable Gentleman.— 'He had been desired toenter into it kind of general explanation of the state of the Country, the Ways. and Means, and the Supply that Might be required, for public information. He was happy that they should be able to meet the arguments which had been brought, without hesitation. He . was glad to hear from the Hon Gentleman what was also his idea upon the subject--than it was upon the propriety • of the establishment that they should stand or fall ; and if Government should not be able.to shew the necessity of such an establishment, the whole of their financial arrangements would necessarily be mailed. The Honourable Gentleman's arguments would be fully answered when Ministers came to due House in the regular course of business to eater into every de tail. He cquld not, for his own part, believe that the liberty of England could be endangered by twen ty.five thousand soldiers. Mr. TIERNEY should not say that the difference between 25,000 men and 50,000 and 150,000, was likely to produce the injury that was dreaded. 'lt was the influence to the Crown from the establish- - snent that was feared ; and was it too much to be afraid of a force which, when the appearance of re sistance was more alarming, might make all resist ance vain, by immediately preventing its spirit from spreadiug? Was it too much to fear such an estab. lishment when it was to be systematically supported? In such a situation, he should sound the alarm from one end of the country to the other; And at such a crisis he would ask, whether it was not proper that there should be a call of the House, that every man should stand forth who considered himself a Itepre. tentative, to say aye or no on such . an important question ? The Noble Lord (Castlereagh) might smile, and he had reason to smile, r within that House he was rather too Strongly supported ; nor slid he hope much from the House till the matter was taken up out of doors ; till petition after petition had shewn that there still existed a people in England. He thought it his duty to warn the country of the danger which overhung, not only their pockets but their lik•erties. What, he would ask, were the grounds on which such a supply or such an establishment uld be proved to be necessary ? If it was not that they might seek means of deceiving the people, what other information had Ministers of the necessity of the establishment than what was before the whole kingdom besides ? In time of war, much might be 'known to the Minister which was kept secret from the subject ; but in a time of peace, what circum stances in favour of the establishment could be stated which were not already known to them scion ? At a time, he s!auuid have added, when the N .ble Lord had been the saviour of Europe, and wl en he wore a blue ribbons!, because he had consolidated the ? Why bad we a war establishment, he would ask the Noble Lord ? for the ribbaud and the esta blishment were inconsistent. We had been told of the immense sums that had been expended since 1782, and we had been told that they had been ex pended that we might procure•security for the future and indemnity for the past. We had at length pro cured security and indemnity for the past, and yet shore sums, for some reason or other, were to be voted. The country was to be a military country. The navy was to be reduced so as only to exceed the peace establishment of 1782; but the army was scarcely to be meddled with. He did not mean to accuse Government of having a direct intention to make the country military, but the system was mili tary, and so in the end would be Government. It was not in the power of • Ministers to disembody the Army with the same facility as the Navy ; it was as easy to dispose of the whole of the navy as one regi ment of hussars; and when any thing could be done that might tend to make us more military, Ministers seemed never to have hesitated in its execution. It • was much easier to cast off a rough honest sailor than a well-dressed gentleman in a red coat and whiskers. The Noble Lord might sneer, but be knew it as well as any one could know it. Travellers in Africa were sometimes accustomed to dwell with complacency upon the wonders they had beheld in their perilous expeditions, and he did not believe that any thing was better received, or listened to with greater atten tion, than a detail of the number of splendid reviews which the Noble Lord had attended. How well this jacket or this cap fitted, hew grand those hel loes were, he .knew were topics that might be dwelt ;Too with pleasure. But when it was consi: tiered how were all these things to be paid for, then would come the trial ; and though.it might lead us to a military despotism, it might first bring the nation to a bankruptcy. The Right Honourable Gentleman opposite bad made a speech last night, in which be endeavoured to shew the House in what a nourishing condition was the country. No man could turnover millions with a firmer countenance than the Right Hon. Gentleman :••••44 Oh 1. I said one hundred pounds, I meant one hundred million." But his speech had not, he believed, had the desired effect ; 1 i ii ie t A he considered it a most alarming speech.— ' The Right Hon. Gentleman had talked of fourteen millions being distributed amongst the country banks, -and of the benefit that would arise from his refrain ing irons taking a Loan. He believed, however, that there war a Lean for the present year. There vas, 'he believed, twelve milliOns in the hands of the Bonk, from the Loan of the former year. which could not be touched by the Public. And it thew Bank had not interposed, he believed before the 10th ' of last May, till which day the last payments upon that Loan were deterred, there would have beets a very considerable depression qf the Funds. The of the ii.xclseqaer by this examicatiezt of 0 . the business, appeined to Wend to put 14 millions into circulation, as d to throw It eeillions out of circulation o-The Right Honourable Geetleman had stated the establishment at 29 pilgrim, bat deducting the four millions for the lasi India Company. and other liens, which were not permanent, (Mr. Tierney) brought it down to 20 millions ; and what it was so low, he would ask whether it was not a most alarm ing sum to the country ? But then it had been said, that the part which Ireland had to contribute should be substracted. " Where, he would ask, was Ireland to prOcure that sum ? In what state was that coon try that she should contribute( so largely ? He knew that Ireland could not furnish it ; and instead of our expecting relief from that country, we should be ob liged to lend her our assistance. He should have thought that the proper mode of 'conducting the busi ness, ho might .be speaking vulgarly, would have been to have stated the Ways and Means first, and then proceeded to the Supply, and not to have hur ried to the Supply as if we were engaged in an ardi. ous contest. It was best to consider what the income was, before the country entered upon the establish ment. The Honourable Member then recommended the strictest economy as the only means of saving the country. The ' Right Honourable Gentleman had stated the revenue of the country is one instance to have been in a flourishing condition ; but if be would examine it from July 1814 Ito July, 1815, he would find it to have decreased. considerably.... As to the Wars. and Means, there appeared, from a calculation he had. •autde, only eleven millions, in. eluding the War Taxes, Excise, Customs, &c. with two millions and a half; the surplus of the Consoli dated Fund. to meet the eighteen millions, and if Ireland could not contribute her share, the twenty millions ot supply. There were several war duties which he did not think Ministers would profit from in time of peace. Who in time of peace would think of paying 95 per cent. for teas ? The Spirits and Malt Duties, would he believed, be greatly evaded, unless Government fitted out a great number of small ,vessels for their collection. Of belts and knapsacks, the Right Hon. Gentleman had takes care to require• abundance, to keep the Leather Tu productive ;'but if many taxes were increased, he knew also that many had suffered art alarming decrease. He should recommend to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to have a Committee to Consider of the state of the country. He should say again, that if ever there was one time when a call of the House was more necessary than at another, it was now, when it was net known whether the Ways and Means would .be adequate to the Supply, and when the countr in a situation of unexampled distress...... WAS inst such a load of taxation and such an establi cot, there was no need of apprehension ? Should no one raise his voice against them ? Yes, he would raise his voice against them. • He would now sound the alarm. He hoped and was sure that he would be followed by many Members of that House. But be Ohl not think that it was from the exertions within the walls of that House, there was any benefit to be expected. No, it was from the expression of the general feeling outside —(Hear, hear.) He would call on all the people of the country to send in peti. tion on petition against the ruinous measures of Mi. nisters ; for unless be was assisted from out of doors, he expected very little effect from any efforts of his within them (Hear, hear.) Unless the people all with one voice cried out against the present system, he should almost say, it vas mercy in- his Majesty's Ministers give them but a 5 per cent. Property Tax instead of a ten per cent. one. To be sure, we were deter:Mined to live in peace with all men. We were determined to have a long and lasting peace, and it may therefore be naturally expected, that we would not keep up enormous military establishments. But unless the voice ot the country was expressed against them, Ministers might say, that all the Continental Powers were keeping up large military establish. menu ; and that this country should do as they did. But were Ministers sincere in their declarations of the expectation of a lasting peace ? If they were, why not produce the Treaty of January last I Why not chew that there was no ground of apprehension, that their expectation was not too sanguine ? But if it was nor, if it was as well founded as the Noble Lord re presented, WAS it not an insult on the House to call on it for a vote of one hundred and - fifty thousand solders ? He hoped the country would cry out against such a system, and cry out with such a voice as to be heard.—((Load cries of Hear, hear.) Lord CASTLEREAGH did not complain that the Right Hon. Gentleman should enter into an in vestigation on the topics he hid alluded to in his speech. He only thought that this was not the best occasion of entering on the investigation. There would be another opportunity of discussing all the points at large. He should therefore at present make only a few remarks :—not from the difficulty of fol. lowing the Right Hon. Gentleman, and answering him on all the points he nad assailed, but because a mere proper opportunity of a full discussion of the subject would shortly occur. He should first remark on the Right Hon. Gentleman's views of the financial state of the - country—a subject on which the Right Hon. Gentleman was generally allowed, and without meaning to flatter, he believed justly, 40 have as per spicuous a view as any man in the country. Yet he did not think that the Right Hon. Gentleman did his knowledge on this subject justice by his statements aed arguments. In those statements and arguments the Right Hon. Gentleman, his was sure, did great injustice to his own abilities. In the latter part of his speech he painted the situation of the financial state of the country in such gloomy colours, as, if believed, would render it impossible to raise a Loan, whatever the necessity should be. Here Mr. TJUNiII explained, that be never meant any such thing. • • .Lord CASTLEREAGH continued. His Right Honourable Friend's (the Chancellor of the Exche quer) plan was laid down with the utmost perspicuity and fairness, and did not deny any difficulty of the circumstances of the times. But the Right 110200.' able Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) seemed to think, that because,there were ten or twelve millions of the loud of last year not bought up by the country in the lands, the system could not go on. Wakit, however, be causelen or twelve millions remained unpaid, that' therefore the system of tendon was to be broken up? Was it an argument why public confidence should not be kept up ? What was the Right Honourable Gen tleman's reasoning towards the latter part of his speech He thought the Ways auk Means were Fat -- . ' at productive as his Right Tionistrable Friend (the \-Chancellor of the Exchequer) had represented them. But the same gloom had hung over the Right Hon. Gentleman and his friends. with little intermiss i o n, for the last fifteen years. However, he (Lord Cas tlereagii) thought there was as little occasion for the ague with which the Right Hon. Gentleman's mind was shaken at present, as there had been on former occasions. The statement of last night should have re lieved it, if relief was palatable. If there were heavy demands at present, and temporary distresses, there would always be occasional resources offer ing to newer them ; nor had he any doubt, that . resources would occur sufficient to reduce the inte rest of the eves and fours per cent. to a lower rate of interest than they were yet at. Was it now, there fore, sstrewwe had done all—when we had attained all the great and glorious results which we had been so long_eontending for—(Hear, hear; from both sielse l of the Hasa) —Was it now that we were to give way to despair, after having arrived at the long wishe d. for goal t No ; let not the country be discouraged. There were resources enough to ride out many hard gales—many severe storms. How much more then could any little difficulties be overcome, that occurred in the settling calm I But the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) argued that the Property Tax should not be continued on account of those dif ficulties. Now those difficulties were the strongest argument why that tax should be continued, and his own argument was the best answer to itself. It was not in moments of difficulty that the greatest rebel don of taxation could take place. Indeed the Right Honourable Gentleman did not meet the question in the fair and manly manner in which the Ho. nourable and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Brlughans) did last night. To be sure the Property Tax, con sidered abstractedly, was an evil ; so was all taxation, considered merely in itself, not relatively to any thing else. But the question was, whether there could be devised any other tax which would pro duce seven millions with equally few inconveniences, or, whether the exigencies of the State required the sum that was to be produced by this tax fie would be prepared to answer on those points, and to give full satisfaction on them, when the proper oc casion came. 'He had to congratulate the House, that there bad been a considerable advance already made in the developement of the exigencies and means of the country. The Right Hon. Gentleman thought that a peace establishment of twenty millions was ruinous, and was the sure forerunner of a Military Government. He seer...d to think that there was something new in the policy adopted. But if he thoiight that his Majesty's Ministers had any intention of vying with the Continental Governments as *Mi litary Power, he was much mistaken. No iuch thing lever entered into their contemplation. This country would always look to her naval power as her most solid security ; and such bad ever been the view of his Majesty's Ministers. The Right Hon. G. ntl 'man asked, if this peace was so full of security, so likay to be permanent, why was such a military establishment neceuaty ? The peace, certainly, was as auspicious as any that bad ever bra made, and gave a fair promise of permanence. Yet he could not have such confidence in any peace--liras, hear— as to recommend that the cowry should be left en tirely naked. He repeated, that till be saw in the States of the Continent the civil power paramount to the military; till he saw the military spirit, which the boundless ambition and daring views of the despot (rpm whom this had been lately rescued, till he saw this spirit subside he could not recommend to this country to live perfectly unarmed and in supine con fidence in the midst of camps and armies, and sur rounded on all sides by military array. Did the Right Hon. Gentleman recollect what was the mili tary establishment of the country aftir the peace of Amiens, when he was himself connected with the Government ? He thought that thb entire Constitu tion was now on the point pf being subverted, be cause there was a force of fifty thousand men to be kept up in England and Ireland. But after the peace of Amiens, there was a military force of twenty-three thousand for Ireland, and of forty-seven thousand for England ; ae that instead of 50,000 to be "kept up now, there was then 70,000. The Right Hon. Gentleman wished for a call of the House.— , He (Lord Castlereagh) was sure that he was willing to give every subject the utmost possible deliberation. I He was petfectly anxious for a call of the House, and by no means would oppose the Hon. Gentleman in a motion for that purpose, provided he did not put off the call for too hue a period. He was as desirous as the Right Hon. Gentleman could be for a full assembly to consider on the present important sub , jects for deliberation ; but he could not help saying, that it. was when the Right 'Hon. Gertleman was most destitute of argument he•was always most vio lent in declamation. It was peculiarly a custom with him, when he could find no soli() grounds of argu ment to address himself to the potpie, and to try to filly them around him. But lie hoped the good sense of the people of England would lend such an ear to his harangues as they deserved. Yes, the people with that persevering good sense with which they had so nobly borne their burthens and distresses during such a course of trial, would bear some diffi• culties a little longer, rather than put. to risk those important advantages "which they had so gloriously acquired, and would loirk with confidence to that Government which had led them through the storm. They may be sure that that Government was more anxious to give them every relief, in the sphere oi l possibility, than they were to receive it (Hair, hear.) As to the army, he thought no one would disagree with him, when he asserted that its patronage was at present managed by the illusttious personage at its bead with as little view to party as it ever was at any former period. He way sure that Gentlemen at the other side of the House were as much in the prac tice of recommend:ng to that illustrious personage, and of being attended to. as those on his side. He allowed that the 'army was the great branch on which the whole question rests. There was no other, in the •present circumstances of the country, so important; but heves sake that there could be no argument raised on the present itate of its patronage. He would not at present enter inns the considerations why a "articular portion of the army should be seat to one place rather than to another; but he was prepared to skew that the entire force required was necessary...-. When tbe Right H on. Gentletnan compares the present ' period to that of 1792 or 1102, be ought to dwell on i points that bad no affinity. On what branch would 'the Rigbt Hontourible Gentl eman more tha n rven his by pl h 4 i n s o o ii f nre!tautcemtioenn He c ou l d thoutand men from the army.' wh it II duction signify ? He (Lord Castlefeig able to :hew diat the entire f o r ce Was rity would say that, in the present state force of 3 ,000 men wan nht regui sue f( 4 try, of that an equal force was too country ? • The Noble Lord concluded I his confidence in the good sense of Il e the priple would nut be hurried by sip however violent, to any. expression a but would wait, with their Accustomed result of the deliberations of, their a vr Parliament. Mr. C. W. WYNNE would ask the how he could compare the eirctunstano sent times to those of the peace of A t there any point analozous between theta Lord CASTLEREAGH sail there more men kept up at that time than at Mr. W YNNE continued. He said, t Lord thought it inconsistent in his It i g h Friend (Mr. Tierney) to object to tit t y now, as there were 'twenty thousand ke F peace of Amiens. But the state of Fra different then from what it is now. I that time in possession of Holland, of th tries, of Italy, and of a great part of ( vast aratios. and was headed by B. it'd now stripped of all those. We might up a large array at that time, th.iugli occasion far it now. It was not of th nagement of the patronage of the a plainer! ; but he was jealous of a stun He acknowledged the merit of the put Aler in Chief ; but a standing army, hands, was not congenial with the Cons liberties of the country. The different Resolutions were the agreed to. Mr. HORNER moved for a copy ment with the Allied Powers respects proportion of the army of observation Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH askc pecuniary indemnity given by Fiance the Crown I The CHANCELLOR of the E) was not prepared to answer. Mr. WYNNE wished to know how received had been disposed of ? The CHANCELLOR of the MI said, that between four and five bun, pounds of it had been given to the alm mainder had been applied to the Como Mr. WYNNE said, that this Houst its controul, and that no sums should propriated without previously consukir Mr. BROUGHAM asked, was droit of the Crown Lord CASTLEREAGH said, th was merely a trustee, not only tor the country, but for the armies of the Powers. Mr. BARING put cff his motion transactions of Ceylon to a future day. BANK. Mr. GRENFELL said, that he hie given notice, that Ise would at an tarly Session subalit to the House a motion of the Bank. He had during the rece subject peculiarly his study, and the n mined it the more be was confirmed nion, that the profits of the Bank were and itjurious to the country. He v a measure that would secure to the I hundred thousands of pounds yearly t any injustice to the Bank. He should Bank always thriving, always pros? the richest mercantile concern in this commercial country. But there was the country as sell as to the Bank. vide this subject into two parts. The the deposit of the public money with thr to the public was totally unproduettv Bank yielding au immense revenue. part of the subject was the charge of the management of the National Debt not dwell much on those charges of 42,438 per annum for house expenses, a three and four thousand pounds fora The immense increase of profits arisini creased circulation of its paper ought with the country. At one period its c SI millions 300 . thousan d. pounds. La betwten 27 and 28 millions. In 17 Bank restriction first tank place, it wi and 12 millions. There was an increa year of 16 millions of circulation. By an increase of profits to the Bank of The Public were entitled to a partied which the Bank enjoyed for the last i In fire year 1800 Mr. Pitt thought th were entitled to some participation in the out of the issues of paper. The stal Bank was then £2,500,000 ; but that at direct variance with the papers he he By these papers it appeared tn be 83 Pitt got au advance of three millont without interest. This was recognizio of participation of profits by the publ nourable Member here alluded to A Col had been appointed some years ago i the situation of the Bank of Englat alter a minute investigation, ascerse Bank derived a profit of no less than JO at that time, from the money lying i It was in consideration of these profit made, that they so often advanced Government; and yet no acknowk be obtained trom the Bank that the balances of money, or had made I The situation of the Bank, then,. wee that they now held balances in their hi to tLe public amounting to eight miller and they advanced to the public a la lions; the profits they now derived I lances exceeded af/420,000 annually. know on what ground or pretensions t derive these vast advantages. For the tbey had made a profit of four million ought to have accrued to the pelii then was nothing more than a con money—making transaction ; and hi service had the Bank rendered the sou