Star. — London, England, 1819-04-03 00:00:00

r - . tha:, they 4.ti-baaa. taut . away ; 4, .is: ~ •• • ; but nide-not-the Oentle- , G ar 2:;•• • „ e. r eral Gourgaud had friends in this • ' ca ald have ta ken Care .4 , th i o f • - It ;1:e duty cf that House- .copsljej aga i n st a man , a suecient reason for :a se into inquiry.--(Hear, heir.) The Honourable Gentleman opposite linty weighed more with him than G ener al Gourgaud, but for that very I •an inquiry. He did not accuse the :atleman of any breach of the law, voluntary injustice towards this might be seen in this case one of the og from :he possession of uncontrolled eerscn s pot sessed of arbitrary power there and inherent proneness to violence 'URST thouzht that neither the Ho - G e neral, nor the Honourable Gentleman side oldie House had said any thing rounded on the statements of the Pett had not answered any of the asser been made on the other side. Did no attention should be paid to these, should go one way ? The Honourable said, that General Gourgaud asked to before a Justice of the Peace, meaning a il ; but the gallant General had said, that he should appeal to the Privy : arguments were completely at va accounted for the Generals conduct er ounds. The latter au-gurnent seemed to 0 de up before the former one was produced. ,T sail. that the Noble Lord and the (able Gentleman had urged, ahat no iperadded to that of General Gm the evidence of those who were ae oaals. if that were so, he was at least, believe the testimony of the oppressed, - of those who stood charged as cri ts 11.elourable friend had stated, that Idea, :.e evidence of two servants, two es, t . servants of General Gourgaud, y, one to a part, and another te the transaction; and be did believe the a upon this evidence to be co: eect.— . said of the language used by the \hat! were persons to be gagged too make no complaint? But to the main -ever had been made or attempted.— his letters or not ? Did they break .o - olio—a;:..:;red portfolio? Did they break it open ? Let them give a specific ' luestion. He did not say that they eeer, no ; but let them do it. ;LAIR rose under the Gallery on the Op. , aad said he was anxious to express his to what had been advanced on that side against the Aheia.Bill. That BM was it was beneficial—it enabled Ministers this country those who had long been ruin abroad, and who had..come to this rder to condaue their mischievous prac persons manifested their venom, now ld not sting. 'CTCHINSON considered the transact-, . disgraceful and barbarous. An Ho tembethad objected to the credibility of 'tat Englishmen were guilty of such bru te must remind that Honourable Mem ;amen had been guilty of passing the If 2 Committee should be agreed to, he 1 nented. But it was not the intention of ,rd to appoint a Committee ; and if the Member for Durham should move fur aiship would frustrate the attempt. The importance, of vital importance to the the country. Each of the Members on side had made a different case. - The first - Gentleman had made as. lame a state had ever been made in Parliament. The targe was in fact admitted by him. He had to speak again : he hoped that leave would , and a Committee appointed to investi hole transaction. The remarks of the No- as to the veracity of the General, were ex '; but they had the testimony of his gallant Member for Southwark, who had ean 1e of the servants ; the very length too of the General's statement corroborated its truth. 'llerefcee consider the Noble Lord's obser _to veracity quite indecorous. But it was character of the nation that was before the lionse. - the duty of Ministers. if they must have: such a proceeding, to employ officers who pe:Mrm their is art with every respect and l ? He should like to k new what officers went ter, that it might be ,ccrtained what chat , had. Englishmen 'dere indeed changed., vo,, when it was their boast that a lot eignia • put his foot upon English ground than he Ind entitled to ail the benefit of English laws heyeti them. Now we were disgraced by of persecution and cruelty. Admiring, as le glory of Waterloo, he considered our con e as impolitic and disgraceful to the country ; :enduct which thnse who silo- .1 come after 4 reprobate. He did, therefore, wish that Ale Lord would give the General an oppor proving, and the Government of disprov charge. It was a statement of as great a .e as had ever been presented to Parliament. a,ce was as lame as ever had been offered. .d that the Honourable Member for Durhain ke some ulterior steps, not so much for the az gallant . ireneral, as the credit of the country. ii;OIIGE 2.OOKBUBN, as some Honour en lers heei spoken of General Gourgetud as , tte.t uined by his fidelity to his •fonner man , ; ged Lo offer a few words on that subjset. lie 't day, at St. Helena, said, when speaking of 41 Bei ttrand—" It was all through that Komi thus :ic spoke of the General) that I cant* It •:as natural for him (Sir G. Coelburn) to • that he supposed he came to. St. Helena with r.t tte because he wished to be of the number of itrvers. Ile said, " No, that was not the case;' itttet observed, th a t h e h a d coved under Bona. :L , orssi.t, wh ere h e attractc d•hi s notice, and was I . lol '. r, eat-Colonel. fie afterwards served , A "limp which cost Bonaparte die loss of ' ; and while Napoleon was at Elba,. he (Get. • ppeared te.a • • • i n France. lie wan of course ,* :. " d ',:'. his oath, and eervectin thy 'loyal army., •%sztri took. g reatnotiee of hint, gave hilts 4. * ' the ercii:r and in various Orays distinguished I hie. When 13OttapartettetomesttOtts ERN ettutkaud hasteeedtonicet hint attd applied for employment. He was appointed to a command, And the next day waited on General Bertrand to thank him for his 17ood otlices. l the General last mentioned gave him rather a cool reception, and told him no thanks were due to him, for had his niaster beea'rUled by his advice, he would have had nothing to do with such Giroudtrs as General Gvurgaud. But for that foolish speech, he said he should not then have been at St. Helena, for he should have turned again, and he was confi dent that he should have been very well received. It was, therefore, not his fidelity that had carried him to St. Helena ; if it had been, nu one would have known better how to respect it than himself.— He understood a report had gone abroad that Gene ral Gourgaud had been sent out of the country at the instance of a person connected with the Navy.— This was untrue. Mr. LAMBTON replied.—The question still re• mained unanswered. Under what pretence were General Gourgaud's papers seized ? On the other side there was no evidence but Benjamin Capper's, If the character of the General was bad, how came he to be received into the company of some of his Majesty's Ministers ?—(Hcar,bear).—He understood that he had dined (he might mention the name) with Lord Bathurst—(Mr. Goulburn nodded asscnt),—and he believed with Lord Castlereagh—(No).— now begged the attention of the House to a circumstance respecting Capper which was to be found in the Po lice Report of 1816; it was a very extraordinary cir cumstance. Capper, in uniform, and with a drawn sword, accompanied by a foreigner and Bow-street Officers, entered a gambling-house, and carried away • a large sum of money from the table, which was never returned by him. Such was the man whose evidence was relied upon on the other side. Ile should be glad to learn that the Noble Lard would appoint a Com mittee of Inquiry. He would willingly leave the no mination of it to his Lotdship The Noble Lord had said that the General had ill.used the Officers. — How could one man, unarmed, eve ill usage to the number of officers employed? At Ilford, or. the load to Harwich, the ill-used General endeavoured to ob tain redress from a Magistrate ; he was struck on the head till he bled, and in that state he was conveyed tol Harwich. He now moved, that the Petition be laid, on the table : he should subsequently move that it be printed, in order that all the Members might be fully aware of its contents. He had no hopes of a Corn. mittee. As to the Alien Act, he had formerly ex pressed his opinion of its principles and provisions. The lion. Gentleman under the gallery (Mr. Sin ,lair) appeared to have embellished his speech, by culling the general terms used in defence of that Act, and to have added the barbarities committed against General Gourgaud as fit illustrations : but if the Act hid been wise and just, it altered not the present case, for under the Act there could be no right to commit so nefarious an outrage. He fully agreed with his Honourable Friend, the Member (or Shrewsbury, that the papers had been feloniously taken, Mr. BECKETT begged to stale, that several com plaints had been made against a very irregular house to Pall-mall. The whole conduct of the business had been committed to Mr. Graham, and by him had --- Capper been employed. Mr. BENNET said, that Mr. Graham might have employed Capper, but what had Capper to do with a foreigner? Why was he in uniform ? Why with ' a drawn sword ? According to the opinion of Mr. Nares, the Magistrate, when asked whether Capper was to be trusted? it appeared that Capper was not to be trusted. Upon this statement (tlie Hon. Member held the Police Report open in his hend) he would not trust Capper in any transaction. The Hon. Member read from the Police Report Mr. Nares's answers to his questions—" Would you commit Capper if he were brought before you upon this charge?"--" I' am not certain that there is evidence sufficient for that !—(Much chcering front the Ministerial side ; on which the Hon.Mensber entreated them to suspend their cheers till they should hear the whole)—but I should have run the risk most undoubtedly !"—(Vehement cheerirg from the Opposition side of the Muse.) On the motion that it be printed, Mr. C. HUTCHINSON put it to the Noble Lord (Castlereagh), whether he would think it proper to have the petition printed, and thereby sent generally 1 before the public—whether he would consent to have' it go abroad, that this officer had been treated with such gross indignity as the petition described, without afterwards consenting to go into an inquiry respect ing it ?—( Hear.) Lord CASTLEREAGH replied, that when the time should arrive at which the propriety of an in quiry mi jilt be discussed, he would then state his opi nions u:- in the subject. He was unwilling to say any thing ...-hich could wound the feelings of General Got , ;and ; but if the matter should come for discus sion. he should feel it his duty to state his opinions. Tate question was then put, and the petition ordered 1 to be printed; after which Mr. BENNET, having been informed by an Ho nourable Friend that the observations which he had made upon the conduct of Mr. Capper were mistaken, he begged distinctly to be understood, as having meant them to apply not to Mr. Henry Capper, who had the superintendence of the Convict Department. , but to Benjamin Capper. It was impossible that he could have thoughts for an instant of using a harsh expression of Mr. Henry Capper, than whom he be lieved there did not exist a more humane or honour able individual in the country. His observations were directed to Benjamin Capper, the person who removed General Gourgaud, and to him only. Clitil4RY svfnlititS. Mt. BENN'ETT brought in a MI for the better Regulation of Chimney Sweepere Apprentices. which was and a fast, ead ordered to be reed a second *se on Monday. i • BA.eitftErrt x.Aws. Mr. J. SMITH moved the second reading of the Bankrupt Laws Amendment Bill. This subject had attracted general attention; and he had received many communications on the subject, and he had accord ingly altered some of its provisions. One veal the in sufficient means of securing bankrupt's property, itnd another Lot preventing unfair debtors from the pre.: sent Malls of procuring their certi fi cates. He pro posed also,.ta alter the punishment of death for Wank rupts concealing their property. It was also desir d able to, extend the provision s of this Act to Irelan. The etaiDiftstion of the Camimissionesii before the Committee *add crestior lit - Off,' tithes rhhfd it respect for the present state of the bankrupt Laws. .41.14111 0 ~•a~ The 614 and ode eitliteillitisticiOttant enures. was that on'thit, permits liak a ktssabil bankrupt lar.w.s. On this had h i: d u much mad litigett** B.4a ders: a gentleman vihis l in formerly existed: Persons ijoun who h as, ad an 7 so ire l r d b th ee e n sk tr ia a: of the dead base:hit fed • - with, was made for that a bankrupt. A dyer Was made a bankrupt because he bought colouring dr*gs, and sold them again in the articles coloured. He was not sure he had succeeded) in the framing of this clause. The new Acts of Ban!: ruptcy was, a person who for seven days stopped i. :y.- ment, or who had been for certain successive days absent, from business: This he wished to be tho roughly investigated. Out .of 100 Commissions of. Bankrupt, 99 were concerted ones. This might be done perfectly free froan fraud. This however, gave a bankrupt power to turn round an d sav, I ant no bankrupt, my commission was concerted. This being proved, he could call on his assignees to repay his property, which they may have fairly divided. There was a clause to protect assignees, and another to ex- I tend the power of the Commissioners, who really have not the power of keeping order in their own Court. If a false debt be once proved, it cannot be got rid of, but by an application to the Chancellor. He was, there fore anxious that the Commissioners shoulti have power to expunge debts when improperly proved, still leaving an appeal to the Chancellor. In, the country, Soli citors of Bankrupts may appoint as Commissioners whom they please to work the Commission.—(llear.) This gave offence to Lord Chancellor Rosslyn. and he fixed lists of Commissioners in certain districts ; but the present Chancellor had destroyed these,lists. In this Bill there was a prevision, that in districts where no such lists existed, country Commissions should be executed in London. There was a part of this Bill perfectly new. It was impossible for a man to give up his time and labour as an Assignee, with csut a motive. The consequence was they did not exert. themselves at all, but left the whole of the Bankrupt's property to the management of a Solicitor. in Scotland an Agent was employed, who gave se curity, collected the debts, and managed the accounts of the Bankrupt, on receiving a small ,commission. There was a clause to enable the Cominissioners to enquire into the conduct of Bankrupts, and to refuse .'ertificates if not proper. He had known a Bankrupt who expended £25,000 in V> months in extravagance. This man got his certificate very soon, and he be lieved had since carried on business, a circumstance that should not have been allowed in a trading coun try.—Mr. Montague, the Commissioner, said, in his evidence, that at Guildhall, there were persons ready to swear debts, and afterwards to sign certificates, for a regular ed small commission on the amount of debts prov. It was here provided, that where a bankrupt has had no accommodation paper, nor had been guilty of fraud, he should bare a certain per , centage on every dividend m ad e . This was due te the honest debtor, and he knew no better mode of preventing crime than by giving the bankrupt a mo tive for good conduct. There was also a clause in this Bill to give perfect protection to the Commis. sionees; and another to extend the same to Messen- gars. He moved that the Bill be read a secur.d time. Mr. ABERCROMBIE said, it was vety diff.ceat to effect any alteration in the law ; but the Public were indebted to his Hon. Friend for having brought fonvard this measure, though he feared it would be an unsuccessful measure. But the best time for dis -1 cussing this Bill would be in the Committee.. He recommended to separate this Bill into two, one hav ing all things mere matter of regulation ; and in the other all matters altering the present state of the Bankrupt Laws. In consequence of the difficulties thrown in the way of the Commissioners of Bank- rupts, .it was next to impossible that they should be able to do substantial justice to all parties, until the law is administered by persons who can give their whole undivided time to it. Instead of burdening the Commissioners with new duties, they ought to be able to attend to Bankruptcies alone. The division of the Bill was the only chance it had of passing, which even then would be very small. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, the country could ) not pay too large a tribute of gratitude to iris lion. Friend for endeavouring so ably to remedy the cry ing evils of the Bankrupt Laws. Mr. Alderman WAITIIM A N agreed to the prin ciple of the Bill ; but it would not be complete, until an alteration was made in the law as to the Com- missioners. The Bill was then read 2 second time, and ordered to be committed on Friday fortnight. ATTENDANCE AT BALLWPA. Mr. BLAKE moved, that the order for taking Mr. Martin, of Galway, into custody as a defaulter, should be discharged. Mr. W. WYNNE said, this motion had not been put on the notices. After some observations, the Order was discharged. BARNSTAPLE ELECTION. Lord CLIVE entered into an explanation of the exi deuce before. the Committee, which induced them to come 'to a resolution that Sir M. Lopes bad been guilty of bribery and corruption. The Noble Lord .commented on the evidence taken before the Corn niittee—the Committee had come to two Resolutions, one declaring Sir M. Lopez guilty of bribery, and the other stating general bribery on the past of the Electors of the Borough, and recommending that the Home should take some step upon it. It appeared from the evidence tbat 27 resident voters had received from Mr. Qribble, a banker. 51. .per man, on behalf Of Sir M. Lopes ; and furt her, that the London voters had received 901. a man. The Noble Lord submitted, that the evidence fully justified the Committee in re. commending that the House should enquire into the and to suggest such an inireasetn the number . dirftennen as should prevent any r e c urrence of these corrupt practices. The Noble L.ovd concluded by moving, that the Report should betaken into further consideration. • . Sir JOHN NEWPORT cougratulated the Noble Lend on the manner in which he had brought for.. ward this business. The subject could not be in bet. ter hands ; and he trusted the N u Lord would pereevere until he had brought to a conclusion that which he had so laudably. begun ; and that the House would skew itself anxious to discharge its duty and preserve its honour, by sifting such subjects as the jensent teethe bottom, Whenever they . web jorward, and not stop shoft of rooting out Lord COMPTON wits a Member 'Minot, and folly *reed in what had the ,::ohlt Lord iClive); who, lit is - 7 . SA: severe In the course he had adopted, and its, which i he ha •no doubt, he would receive the assistance mid support cif the.. Committee. Mr. RENNET concurred entirely in what had been stated. • Mr. W. SMITH was happy this subject had been btought forward. It was well 'mown that he was . what wastalled a Reformer. But he had alimayri been ' of opinion it was equally necessary to reform the itet - tors as the elected. If that object could be obtained, much good might be expected to result from it., Mr. BLAK E was favourable to reasonable, though not to visionary, Reform. Me.W.S:%!IT II was also anxious for reasonable and temperate Reform, and as great no enemy to eisicinery inr.ovations as the Honourable Member could be. Mr. W. WYNN thought then was not such a poi of general bribery as should operate to disfranchise the Borough. lie thought all who now had the right of voting shorld retain that right, And that the ntun ber should be increased. Mr. Alderman HEYGATE did net rise to crone or to palliate the conduct of the forough of Barusta plc. He trusted the House, when the subject came before it, would take a broad view of it. But he could not refrain from cautioning the House against, _ ;estroying all these Boronglis one after another, by which the opportunity which the commercial interest had of being represented would be destroyed also, and too great a weight and influence would be thrown. to into the hands of the landed interest. Mr. GORDON, for the very reason assigned by the Honourable Alderman atgainst throwing open these Boroughs, was in favour of that course being adopted. He knew of no advantage which the Commercial Interest could derive from that system which had prevailed in the Borough of Pernstaple, except that the richest merchant, or the man who could afford to pay highest, might get elected. The Resolutions were then agreed to. Mr. WYNNE moved a Resolution expressive of the opinion of the House, that gross bribery had been practised at the late election for. Barnstaple. This Resolution was also agreed to. Lord CLIVE then obtained leave to bring in a till to prevent Bribery and Ccanupticalat future Elections for the Borough of Barnstaple. On the motion of Mr. W. WYNN, the Attorney- General was directed to prosecute Sir AL Lopez for bribery at the late Election. On the motion of Lord Wye, it was ordered that the Speaker should not issue his writ for a new elec tion till this day month. alms azAvaati ATTER CONDEMNATION. Dr. PULLLIMORE moved for a List of the Ships seized for a breach of the Excise, or Navigation Laws, which have been restored by order of the Lards of the Treasury after sentence of condemnation payed by any Vice-Admiralty Court. He was more than a little surprised to understand that thil motion was to be opposed, the Chancellor of the Exchequer hav ing intimated that he saw no objection to,it. Ile un de r stood that many of these cases had occurred in Iwhich the Treasury had authorised returns after sen- Ltence of condemnation in the Vice-Admirelty.Courts. . He thought the power of their stepping in between : the sentence of the Court and its execution, was MS which the Treasury ought not to possess. .. isir. LUSHLNGTON did not understand his Right ,Honotrxtble friend as having intimate 4 his intention of agreeing to that motion. He only understood him to have said, that if the Learned Member would • : select any specific number of cases, . say twelve or twenty, they should be granted ; but that .a return I for five years was a voluminous document,. difficult in making up, and useless when obtained. The Right' Honourable Member defended the, power which the Treasury possessed, acrd which he said was found to facilitate the course of equity and justice. li the Honourable Member would limit his motion it would not be objected to. . . Mr. W YNN could see no difficulty in making the return, as called for. A clerk, as he conceived, might mace out a list from the books in a single morning. • Sir J. NEWPORT did not find fault with the power having been granted to the Treamey. It might have been granted for the wisest purposes ; but the Houte had a right to enquire how the power had been ex. ercised.—(llea?.) Mr. FORBES considered the power vested in the Treasury as having been exercised highly to the ad. vantage of the public. He must oppose the motion, unless the Hon. and Learned Doctor stated stronger grounds for it. Dr. PHILLIMOR.E replied ; after which the mo tion was agreed to for the last year. NEW POST•OFTICE. Mr. GORDON censured Governittent severely for not complying with the Olden of the House some weeks ago issued for the production of certain Ac counts respecting the progress and expense incurred by the building for the New Post-Office. He al ledged that the Treasury and the City of London bad co-operated for a job. Five weeks had now elapsed since he moved and carried a motion for the Accounts now alluded to, and no step appeared to have been taken to comply with the Orders of the House. The job which he now condemned would esiteed £300,000, aiid eller all would prove an ass expenditure. expenditure. • • • Mr. LUSHINGTON assuied the Hon. Member that if lie had waited till the next week he would have been saved the trouble of his present motion. As the Accouets desired wpre in a rapid progress P..' completion, he thought the motion might be wite drawn or suspended. Mr. GORDON declared himself not satisfied. To check any chanCe of a new job between the Treasury and the City of London, he t.hoald move " That the Accounts some weeks ago reeved for, be produced forthwith." ; Mr. LUSHINGTON ietimated his determination 41) oppose the nation. ' • Sir .1. N'Er*Prat 'r said , that es the Sefeants of the Crown Weld obt preterd to be tabus hp surpris:., 6vr weeks having psed.since the Order et the House, he would support the te?- Fnter the prod:talon pf the Accounts tortkwuh. T01.%-iii,INGTON s:-..te.. , ttat the delay had arisen front Ity 3i ihst ' and of Woilit trot haetrig • teturned the pews presentee to or their fespection, in order fait the "Accusing might he 5y seed in as accurate a sit tpt as possible. Eintne additirnal was of anise necessary, but the House might rest smiled be eta_t_notc;enrrtlitent _sbendol the itrtle kd. r, dated the Ist of *Kb- - 0 r • - - - rl ~ C ald ,„ ta b. -, 6 ;e ' agai •,4 hit Case 0u o f the .rta c Ge n o f n for "" bic Ge. mir v 1 . 53 o f OlerC MIO °r• • sing f 1 pet s cnS p Mural and .3, 13 ATHUR • General, jee side ‘!r (I ns was found and they has jell had bee that no fat all should h a d said, I •,,,nght before a C.ouncil; [ 4 uot.goow th ;c a. These ar t h e y . oec :op& -*de around :4q-m ade up I ,:.••• ir• BENNET s. , h o nourable ? „... s ... e v at super A gliot the el a L viiv ; aalt. • to lx lievr ::,e testimony of • Dot his I ▪ besides, ,;,11 'errant% ;bore testimox, the trot given u; h.td beet What! they to mak no answes tees lead his 0 , his poi ) 4ionsly break i ;.v to thi , Itte not ails gr. SINCLAD aaan side, and dissent to u •le House asai ry,andrt' from this -,... tt its ruin WI , to order . 54 Those pet tier could a Ir. C. HUT( a the most di .::,;able Menthe 'chrge, that rty; but he n ,tat Eaglisi Act. if Ai he cornea oble Lord -.'iottrable Me, • his Lordshi was of irK ratter of the • other side h• Ge - t as had e , 'tale charge m Ned tare to si granted, an, the whole ' Lord, as to Grdihary ; bt %7.d, Ale c.ne of t tiara Ger.en K 2 must there as to characts Wes it not tit.: !!CMrie to SU C Tx:id perfori lenity? He • Ith Capper, I vet they k ?ae era: was, .3soir.f.r put was free, and w;:',:e he obe) alitem of gl since as 4 Va; cod 4 7tould ter .."` ruble L -.; ef pri the eh a tj ,lee tit'e p .6 r GEU t s wg Ibte, cr.e L i d 'siaerai 13. ::1 Itilws 1 ..' It lttarE th: ?! 44 1)arte Lis '.: 3 7ti o it .441 ie a L 1 1 that ca trtce ; 11 , ' t t CtY a u m ps.•. they •wele brought. • Tae Clerk thett re td the Order, dated the tat are worm Xing out the evil. 31T. GORDON did net want any estended ace's& Be Tier of this c A om , - ."'"ki croak thaelsCierdwont7s." "mrttl a tl t e n t le lske d t v ; tag. °I. art vis --- been stated -Y but :air estimate.—The :nation warn eed to, ; F t at Rd? ran Misted, wolllti per- Tw,:::e the House Acyarricd to Monday. ,••••••••.". ,•