Star. — London, England, 1811-02-26 00:00:00

answered, as he knew he must have done, in the • native, would the Right Hon. Gentleman scoff soch a cross-examination ? He would ask the Lord Cisiac tiler himself coo, whether he was not at the time 0w ire it the coutrol exerc is e d over his Majesty ? .e-'.es he had not himself exercised a controul over h es.aja,ty ? , Whether he had not possessed himself :'•• k-ys of his Majesty's private escritoire, which h. refesed to give tip ? These were facts of which he leaf himself ne doubt, but which ought to be en geireJ into. The King, he contend ed, was under coetrAil when the change took place in 1804 ; and %lieu Mr.. Pitt went to his Majesty, Dr. Simmons went out. Was it not then material for Lord Eldon, for Lord Sidmouth, and all the others concerned, to piece him in the situation to prove all that he had said, or to take the opportunity of acquitting them selves of all imputation by disproving them ?—But there were, in the manner in which the restraint was imposed upon his Majesty, circumstances of ag- I gravation which rendered it peculiarly n ecessar y for that House to inquire into the case. He was assured that the controul over the Sovereign had been exer cised in a manner which, if known to the public, would excite their indignation, and convince them that the King had not been fairly treated. If they loved the King, if they were attached to their Sovereign— if they respected the royal office and authority, they acre hatted by every feeling of Immaaity and every pnciph' of du:y, to enquire into this matter. If the inclsitieels concerned should not disprove these state . :tees, witlicut the fear of contradiction he sub spitted to the House, he was afte.id the kingly office would be:brought ho) disrepute. Even Lord Eldon hineeli,• in the cese' of Ridgwick and Darling, in 18se2,.c.irried, as he acknowledged, the power of the Ceiert farther than it was carried in the time of Lord Hardwick. In that case, the Noble Lord declared, that the care of the Court extended not alone to in saee petisms, but also to weak and infirm persons, to ;eve them from•any less or injury to their property ; and observed, that no person could sec the lady with cut patceiving the necessity of throwing care around hcr. Upon this, lie would ask the Noble Lord what was the state of the King ? Could any person see him without perceiving the necessity of throwing care around him ? in the case of the lady to whose case he alluded, Lord Eldon asserted that every one would see the propriety of providing care for her. He did not feel it necessary to come to Parliament in her case ; he provided for the care of her property ; but he suffered the King to give away the property of the Crobsn, at a time when he must have been aware that his Majesty was not in a state that would warrant the Chancellor in superseding n commission' of lunacy ir. the case of a subject. For himself, he had no doubt that his Majesty had at the time been able to hold rational conversations; he was convinced that he could have then at intervals conversed as rationally as he Can at present ; yet in his conscience he believed that the mind of the King was at present much more sound than it was either in 1804 or 1801. He must say, too, that the King had not had fair play, when hurried out and driven to the East and to the West, as they might all recollect, to be exhibited to his sub jects ; and afterwards to be taken home in the evening •. to be placed under the restraint from which in the morning he was drawn for the purpose of this public exhibition ; yet all this had been done, and Lord El. don was a principal party to the transaction. Was it not well known that persons may appear of sound mind until the corner be explored which contains the ground of their delusion ? In the case of Collins, Lord Eldon held, that before he could supersede the commission, the recovery should be fully established • by the•physicians as to the whole competence of the • party, and under all circumstances. In ,that case, the Noble Lord quoted a case in which he proceeded with Lord Thurlow, when that person was Chancel 'for, to get a commission superseded,for a party, whom -.after many interviews and various conferences he thought perfectly well till he came to thank him for his success, when he gave snchsevident proofs of insa nity as made him regret his success. If the Noble Lord was deceived in that case, till the circumstance of success produced marks of delusion, had he, he would ask, ascertained whether there were any topics upon which particularly his Majesty's complaint bin ged ? Had he r in order to convince himself of the recovers-, sought out those topics and submitted them to his Majesty's mind ? Or had he studiously abstain ed from them, and yet ventured to pronounce his Majesty well, while he kite& he was yet under the controul oi Dr. Simmons cad his attendants ? Lord Eldon was the only one of the Ministers who saw his Majesty during his illness in 1804. Mr. Addington resigned while his Majesty was in that state. He eculd priwe all this, and required only the opportu nity of doing it. If he should, in establishing the Charges he urged against• Lord Eldon, succeed, it would be necessary to take some proceeding in con sequeece, in'order - to prevent that Noble Lord from remaining. in 116. Majesty's Council. When his en quiry should be concluded, it would be forthe House to decide what further measures would be necessary I to be taken.- After he shtibia hear what miae be said, he Might possibly. feel it necessary to claim the indulgence of the-House - in reply. He conducted by I moving " hat a Committee be appointed to inspect the. Journals of the }louse of Lords, with relatitortNo any procoedings of the pre .nkt Session, touching the examination atilt Physicians in at- ter. , l:nce on his Maje.ty, during his inclispcisition in 1504, and to report their opinion on the same to the House" On the question being. seconded and put, laird CASTLEREAGH rose to offer some oh. servations to the House upon the motion. The Noble . Lord declared, that he felt he should not be discharg ieg that duty which he owed both to the public and himself, it lie did not notice the charges-of the Hon. Centleman—charges which on so very delicate and import:int a subject could not be allowed to pass un noticed by him. If what the Hon. Gentleman bad asserted was meant as a prima fade case, he knew his . duty and the House also knew tkieir'ditty better than to pass them by. At the same tittle he was ready to admit that the Hon. Gentleman had not coloured the statement invidiously ; he would go further, and say, that if the persons in power at the time to which the Hon. Gentleman had referred, could 'so 'far forget their allegiance to their Soiereign and their duty to the country, as to abuse the confidence reposed in them, for the purpose of turning it to their adeantage . or to the injury of their country, they were guilty of a constitutional crime which could not be defended, and which most hold them up to the severest account. With this deelaration, he should 110 t abstain from 417 siring to come in for his share of the responsibility as far as he was concerned. The Hon. Gentleman had, however, charged Lord Eldon as being the most prominent in the office, the most criminal ; but he Lord Castlereagh) .could n o t perm i t ne i t h er the Hon. Gentleman nor the House. to suppose that he did not wish to stand in the same situation with the Noble Lord, partaking, as he had done at the time, of a s'-are in : the Government. Its making this de claration, he did not wish to be thought as anxious to exhibit a bravado of generosity ; he would state dis. tinctly and explicitly the grounds. Lord Eldon was most certainly the Minister charged with the particu lar acts specified in the Hon. Gentleman's statement —but these acts were not done without the advice of his colleagues in office, and the opinions of the phy-' sicians in attendance upon his M a j est y. Th e Ri g h t Hon. Gentleman was greatly mistaken if he thought he could prove the facts stated. He (Lord Castle reagh) was enabled to disprove many of his assumed facts, and convince the House that Lord Eldon was the only Minister of the Crown who had access to his Majesty from the 12th of February to the 23d of April. The opinions of the whole of the Ministers were taken, and he assured the House that not one of his colleagues would have had access to his Ma jesty, if, in the judgment of the whole taken collec tively, it was not only thought justifiable, but neces sary to do the acts charged. If they had not done those acts, they would be justly held criminal in a constitutional point of view. That he should be pre pared to prove what he had asserted was beyond doubt. During the period constituting the disease, when his Majesty was deemed incompetent to tran sact further business, it would have been criminal in his servants to give advice, and therefore none had been given. But the I - lon. Gentleman had charged the Noble Lords with dereliction of duty; and to pr we his charge had asserted that he was in posses sion of facts. If so, why had not the Hon. Geode man brought forward his charges sooner, for the facts were within his view in 1804 as well as now ? The charge of dereliction of duty to the country would therefore with truth apply to the Hon Gentleman.— With respect, then, to the evidence of Dr. Heberden, which it would not be necessary for him to read, the proposition which the Hon. Gentleman endeavoured to establish deduced from that evidence was this : the King's disease was either a case of mental derange ment, or of incapacity to transact public business.— Now what was the substance of the evidence of Dr. Heberden ? On being asked on this point he replied, that he recollected being called in to attend his Ma jesty on the 12th February, and so continued till the 23d April ; that a few days before the 23d April, his Majesty, in the judgment of the Physicians, was in a state of mind competent to the transaction of public business. The House would not discredit the evi dence of Dr. Heberden—he was a man of whom he had some knowledge, eminent in his profession. But the Honourable Gentleman talked of cross-examining the Doctor; but this cross-examination would come with a bad grace now, for it must be recollected that the Hon. Gentleman was a member of the Committee of this House appointed to examine the Physicians, and might have gone into that cross examination with better effect. The evidence of Doctor Heberden must be taken in context with that given before the other House and then it would be seen, notwithstand ing what the Hon. Gentleman had said as to the last Bulletin, that the opinion of that Physician was, that his Majesty was competent to transact public business at the discontinuance of the Bulletins in March, five weeks before the 23d of April. The Noble Lord wished the House to understand distinctly that he had no anxiety to evade the question, or to argue it un fairly. The Hon. Gentleman - had called upon him to account for the state of his Majesty's health in the intervening period from the 12th of February to the 22d of March, and he should do it most cheerfully. He should blush and hide his head, if any one could conceive that he would shrink from the inquiry He stood upon very high ground, and should deliver him self from the difficulties which the Hon. Gentleman seemed to skink he had thrown in his way, by meet ing the charge in a manly and open manner :—On the 12:11 February the fist Bulletin announcing his Majesty's malady was issued, and on the 27th of the same month, an Hon. Baronet, not now a Member of the House, brought forward a motion on the sub ject, to which his Majesty's Ministers gave a full and explicit answer, so as to satisfy the House. On that day, as well as some days previous, the Members of the Cabinet had before them the examination of the Physicians, and the practical question at issue was, whether it was then the duty of Ministers to come to Parliament with a statement of his Majesty's illness,' and ask for their advice; or was the situation of the country such as to warrant them in abstaining from so doing ? In 1804, the situation of things was widely different. The Parliament had been regularly con vened by his Majesty. In the present instance it wa s not sitting. In the former case ex nrceseitate rei ; it was obliged to take cognizance of the question, Nvhe ther it was necessary, under the existing circumstan ces of the country, to deliberate: upon what was best to be done, or whether, as there was no absolute ne cessity for supplying the temporary absence of the Royal Authority, it would not be more advisable to wait for the recovery of his Majesty. The House, lie was sure; would not go the length of saying, that in such a state of things his Majesty's Ministers were compelled to come to the Parliament, especially as that step would have produced the additional difficulty of impeding and suspending the functions then going on with respect to public business. Tn this state the Cabinet put the question - to the Physicians : whether in their opinion, the state of his Majesty'i health was such as to render him competent to do an act of the Executive Govetnntent ? This question was put on the 22d of February, and . also on the 27th of the same month ; and they were also required to state, whether, in their opinion, one of his Majesty's servants might have access-to him on public business ? To these questions the physicians answered—that his Ma jesty was.not only competent to transact public busi ness, but that he was in a state of considerable im pthvementohat if the act necessary to be done should lead to any protracteddiscussion, then it would be most desirable that it should be avoided. The Hon. Gentleman had talked much of the public interest being protracted ; but he (Lord Castlereagh) knew of no prinelplk)tiore sound and intelligent than that of the responsibility vf Ministers, which threw a shield of protecuorraroutitthe interests of the public. The substance of the evidence of the physicians, "dia l he I. o ell recollected, and which was refreshed by flient-' panda which he had taken at the time, was what he had state 4. This evidence the physicians, he was sure, would confirm, if Parliament thought necessary I to grant the motion of the Hon. Gentleman. Down however to the sth of Mardi his Majesty was not called on to do any act ; when on the 27th February the motion came under discussion, it was the opinion of Mr: Fox that it was the duty of the Government to make a communicatico to Parliament of the sub ject. In that opinion Mr. Windham concurred, and in consequence Mr. Addington, then at the head of his Majesty's Councils, declared in his place that there was not any necessary suspension of the Royal Au thority ; which communication was grounded on the distinct assurance of the Physicians. On that oc casion, Mr. Pitt, whose confidence in the existing Government of that day, would not be suspected to be particularly marked, did most successfully con tend against the opinions of the Gentlemen opposite. He deprecated any unnecessary communication to Parliament, because lie considered that the practical result of such communication would be the necessary suspension of all public business in Parliament. He declared that the question ought to rest with the ser vants of the Crown, and they had the evidence of the Physicians on the competency of his Majesty. Mr. Addington vacated his seat on the le.lth of February. On the 27th of the same month a very respectable Gentleman (Mr. Nicholls) tat; now a Member of the House, was to have made a motion oil the very deli cate subject—but a Right Hon. Gentleman opposite vary indignantly opposed the notice, and the conse quence was, that it was totally suppressed. Until the sth of March, no act of Government was done. lOn that day, his Majesty's consent was obtained to a Bill which involved in it the property of the Crown —that was a fact which the House could ascertain without referring to the Journals of the Lords. Pre vious to the Assent being givea by Cammission, the Lord Chancellor stated to the House, that he had ac cess to his Majesty on the 4th, and also again on the sth, and his Majesty was pleased to signify his assent to the Bill. The Lord Chancellor is the greatest Law ' Officer in the State, and as a Privy Councillor is sworn to give honest and fair advice to the Sovereign. If the . Noble Lend had found his Majesty in a state of mind incompetent to give his consent to any act, could any Gentleman say that he was a person capable of decla ring in his place,in the face of Parliament, that the King was competent to do an act of the Government, when in point of fact he was not ? He stood therefore in this situation as one of the colleagues at the time of the Noble Lord ; aad he would claim for him that can dour and justice which he knew he was entitled to. The question was not of a political nature, and the opinion of the Lord Chancellor as to his Majesty's competency to do the act, was formed upon two con versations, and from the examination of the Physi cians. After that examination, the advice of the whole of the Cabinet was taken, and then it was that the Lord Chancellor had access. Several Bills were ready for assent, and among the number was one of very great importance—the Mutiny Bill. What then would have been the situation of his Majesty's servants if they had suffered the Mutiny Act to expire ? A heavy responsibility would have attached to them, if they had not had the spirit to go to his Majesty to t::et his consent to that Act. The Hon. Gentleman had however condemned this line cf conduct. Would he contend that the House were ready to vote against the opinion of ti:e Physicians ? If so, they would have committed an act tantamount to that of dethroning the Sovet eign. Mr. Addington had access to his Ma jesty on the 19th of March, but even then he had not ventured to appear in the Royal Presence until he re ceived a previous message from Sir Lucas Pepys, that he might with propriety have that interview.— Mr. Addington attended with some official papers ne cessary to have affixed to them his Majesty's signa ture, and it was so affixed. Nothing further interve ned between the 19th and the 22d, on which latter day bulletins were discontinued. On that day it was the opinion of Dr. Heberden, that his Majesty was so completely restored to health that he was com petent to transact all public business, not merely as the Honourable Gentleman had stated, up to the 10th of June, but up even to the 10th of October.— On the 9th of April the Physicians were again exa mined, and their unanimous opinion was, that his Ma jesty was fully competent to carry on public business. His health was so perfectly re-established, that at the end of July, when the Session closed, his Majesty came down to the House and pronounced a speech on the occasion. The Noble Lord trusted that he had said enough to convince the House, that not only the Learned Lord, but the rest of his Majesty's servants in 1804, were• justified in the seeps they had taken ; that what they had done proceeded from public motives; that his Majesty's state of mind was competent to the transaction of public business at the period alluded to by the Honourable Gentle mail ; that with respect to the assertion that his Ma jesty was not in full health at the time, why, to be sure, that ...ma a sort of charge which required scarce an answer; for could it be supposed that after an attack so violent, attended with fever, that his Majesty's vigour would, as it were, on the instant re tern ? That his health of mind was perfectly restored, the House, he was convinced, would not have any doubt ; and, therefore, under all these considerations, he felt confident that he should receive the sanction of the House for the conduct pursued 14' Ministers. If to fasten criminality on some one, however, was still the object of the Honourable Gentleman, he de sired to take his full share i and whatever might be the judgment of the House, he should bow with the most perfect submission. Mr. YORKE said, he entirely agreed with his No ble Friend in all he had said, and particularly in that part of his speech respecting the responsibility of his Majesty's Ministers. He conceived himself equally responsible with every other of the then servants of his Majesty. He was certain that his Noble Friend was perfectly right in what he had stated to the House ' for he (Mr. Yorke) had referred to several memoran da, and he then held some of them in his hand, and which positively confirmed these things in his mind. He had listened with the greatest attention to -every part of the Honourable Gentleman's speech from the beginning to the end, and was surprised to find that after a course of seven long years he had not been able to adduce of bring forward one single new fact ; and that being the case, he was at a loss to aceout why he should now produce a :large at so great a distance of time in preference to the period in which it took LI place, and when it was recent in the memory of every one. Ile thoug!it that this. being a charge to which a certain degree of criminality attached, after so long a period had been sw.nred to peas away, some circum• stances should be produced, which site a ed,or tehded to shew, that certain circumstances of an underhand or stupiciotil nature had t. ken piacc, and through the in terest and influence of his": ile•ty's Mitts:rrs had been acted upon. Why did not the 14,1.1.Ge0t. bring forward this charge on the evidence of Dr. Heberden, before the Committee of the House cf Cnrnmons ? The rea. son seemed to be, because that Physician's evidence on his cross-examinaticat produced many answers which 50:c:illustrative of his whole opinion, and ex plained the different rriods betveen the 12th pf Fe. binary and the 23.1 of April, w!.'n his Majesty was so far better, as to be capable cf transacting business to a certain degree. The Hon. Ger.ii,:man had not, therefore, acted fairly or candidly, either by the House or by Ministers, in the pieletence to Dr. He berden's b.lore the lioare of Lords.— He insisted that the c3mpet:.ney of his Majesty was at that time the same as the competency of any indi vidual could be; and the . cittestica was, whether in such a case an ifidividual would not have been allowed to he competent to transact his own affairs? He made a compari so n of dates of the several bulletins, which slimed that his Majesty. was gradually recovering, and it was on a regular consultation by the joint ad vice of all the physicians, that his Majesty was de clared capable of transactiog business ; and therefore he knew that it was only acting conscientiously, when he, as one of his Majesty's Ministers, gave his . advice in -favour of the measures which were that pursued. He was not iq the habit cf so often seeing his Majesty at that time as some of the other Mint stem, but he perfectly well remembered having one interview with his Majesty, which lasted for a consi derable time; and from every thing that passed on that occasion, he was convinced his Majesty was as much in his perfect mind as many of those who considered themselves at that time, and now, capable of talking on the most important and serious subjects in that House, as patterns of all the virtues, and possessed of all the talents necessary to guide and govern the fiat interests of a great nation. . Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said, he had listened with attention to the very long and elaborate speech of the Noble Lord, from the whole of which he col lected, that all the Noble Lord wished was to be put in a situation in which he and his colleagues might have - an opportunity of shewieg their innocence. It would therefore be natural for him and fot the House to suppose that the Noble Lord and his colleagues would be glad to adopt the motion of the Honour. able Gentleman, which would afford them so fair an occasion of doing so. Instead of this, however, the Noble Lord and the Right Honourable Gentle: man have retorted upon the Gentleman who brought forward the motion, and made a charge against hint for having suffered the accusation to have lain so long dormant. This was a curious way of answering an argument : it was in fact no answer. The Hon. Gen tleman was not bound to bring it forward sooner, dor might it have been proper to have done so. It was well known how, at particular periods of time, men in certain situations are so surrounded and clothed w ith power, that to bring forward a question of this nature would be altogether' nugatory. No space of time should shelter men, who had official situations, and have committed crimes, from being called to Re. count for their delinquencies. But the fact was, that the circumstances which gave rise to this charge have not been lung known ; and although it might be a long time since the transactions under consideration took place; yet it now appeared clearly, that Minis. ters did, when the King was ill, transact business with him of that high and important nature, which they ought not to have done. With respect to the Lord Chancellor, he certainly, from the superior na ture and consequence of his office, stood foremost s in the line of culpability, and in his opinion he did not stand the less so, because the Noble Lord had volun tarily undertaken to share the responsibility with him. He must protest against that kind of doctrine, and he thought it would be sufficient for the Noble Lord to be prepared to answer for his own acts, whenever he might be called upon to account for his conduct as a Minister of that day. The Lord Chancellor, however, he thought was particularly responsible. Great part of the Noble Lord's argument had been misapplied ; and it was impossible, in his opinion, for any man to believe, that the King could be in a proper state of mind to transact public business, when such persons as Dr. Simmons and Dr. Willis were called in, and it was deemed necessary to keep them in constant attendance on his person. If the King was to be considered a ' person of any consequence in the Government, and he thought 'him a most essential one ; it the Kingly power was necessary to the Constitution, then his Ma jesty ought to be free from all such: restraints as those imposed by the presence of such men as Drs. Willits and Simmons, betore he could be judged competent to transact the most important business of the state. If, the contrary, the Kin was held to be a mere puppet, to be occasionally brought down to Parlia ment in a gilt coach, and to be used for the purposes of show alone, the argument of Ministers was good. The Honourable Gentleman who brought forward the motion, and all those who were inclined to support it must give up their's. Lord CASTLEREAGH, in explanation, 'stated, when the Hon. Baronet had any charge to make against him, he begged he would do it in the candid and manly manner in which the Hon. Gentleman had brought forward his charges this night, by bringing them hpfore the I louse, and not to do it in other places. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT replied, •that in that and every other place, he should fteely speak his sen timents of public men and of public measures. Mr. WHITBREAD (after a coosidera . ble pause, during which the gallery was neatly cleerecifor a di vision) said, he had waited thus long to see if any other Honourable'Member was disposed to offer any thing on the subject, and if there was any one so in *dined, he begged he might do it then; )te was ready to give way to him, that he might answer him as he would endeavour to answer those who had already spoken. If he did not, he would crave theindulgence of the House, that he might not be precluded from • answering him, though he had replied. He was the more inclined to premise this, as there were two Right Hon. Gentlemen in the House, near relatives cf a Noble Lord whom he had personally accused in his opening speech, and for whom he bad particularly wishful wdsfer his reply. Tuns 1110% '