Star. — London, England, 1811-07-03 00:00:00

Causes; but the plan Ile piispesea vtould be titalter. able : end who would prefer . a,veerincand uncer tain standard to .one • that' 'Was 'fixed arid perma nent ? He felt the peculiarity of his situation in in troducing a measure which might more.properly have come from his Majesty's Ministers, and consi dering the monstrous.state of the present times, he felt himself in the predicament of a tailor, who should endeavour to make a coat to fit a humpy. ...He could not be expected to do it complete ly, but he would endeavour to make it fit.— What he would propose—premising especially and distinctly, that the Bank can show, and shall show itself solvent—was, first, that various branches from the Bank of England, like that of Scotland, should be extended through the country. Secondly, that books should be opened in a similar manner, and for similar purposes. Thirdly, that persons possess ing Bank Notes (still supposing the solvency of the Bank ), upon depositing such notes, shall have full security for the same. Fourthly, that every person sl credited shall have power to transfer his property as he may please. Fifthly, as such entries can never be forged, they may safely be taken as legal tender. And such a mode would operate as a security against robbery, insurrection, or even invasion. He had lately alluded to a person pos sessing great landed property, who had sig. reified to his tenants, that he would not con sent to receive any other payment of his rents than guineas or bullion, or Bank paper at dis tount. He had no suspicion as to the purity of that person's motive, but he was fully impressed with the mischief which was likely to result from his act ; and therefore alone it was, before it might be too late, that lie had, at the present advanced period of the Session, called ther Lordships' atten tion to the subject. It was a fundamental part of his plan to show, that a pound sterling and a pound I bank-note (still.supposing the Bank solvent) were on a par. For instance, he should go to his banker; with 20 guineas in one hand, and with '2l pound notes in the other, and his banker would receive and acknowledge them as perfectly equal. He would appeal on that subject to the general feeling and good sense of the country; and he thought it essential to the best interests of the country, that Eve or six months should not be allowed to inter venc before some effectual measures were adopted for the occasion.. The Noble Lord (said Earl Stanhope) may catechise me, but if lie does, shall ca techise in my turn. The measure taken by that Noble Lord, he contended, was calculated to produce serious discontent among a most use ful class of men, to whom their Lordships all must look for the support of their dignity and the collection of their rents. He re peated, that his Bill was nut to make Bank notes i legal tender,but tti prevent a guinea rrem passing for I snore than 21 shillings, or a pound-note for less than shillings. It was stated on a former evening,l by the Noble Secretary of State ( Earl of Liverpool), thht although he highly approved of the plan which he (Earl Stanhope) had proposed, yet he thought it unnecessary, since the example set by the Noble i Lord (Lord King) was not at all likely to be fol. tokved. But lie, on the contrary, was persuaded the I example would be followed by numbers, if riot timely prevented, and he adduced in support of that persuasion, a va: iety of letters which he had lately received from various persons, who felt alarm at the konsequences, and who bad consulted him as an un feed lite'yer how they should act. In one instanc e a Gentleman of Hampshire had purchased an es-' tate, for which he had agreed to pay 4.001 , one 1 hundred pounds were paid*in advance, and possession tebtained. Various expensive improvements were trade previous to the* demand of the other three hundred pounds, when, to his surprise, he was called tipOn peremptorily for that sum in gold or at least for that sum in notes at the alleged rate of dis count, which was at the rate of 275. for a guinea. Suppose (said his Lordship) instead of four hun dred pounds, the sum had been a hundred thou sand, what Noble Lord would like to be placed in such a situation. His Lordship read a variety of letters, in which similar cases had been stated to aim, and conjured the House to make effectual use of the short remaining period of the. Session it, pro: siding against the evil, and not like the lazy fire man to suffer the building . to be destroyed before he would bring forth his engine. His Lordship then tnoved the second reading of the Bill. Lord KING expressed himself particularly anxious to reply to what had been advanced by the Noble Earl, and the observations he should make he meant to divide into two distinct parts ; first with respect to his own conduct, and next as to that which was matter of pudic discussion, and he' should explicitly state the reasons which induced him to make that stand in defence of his own pro perty, against that which he apprehended was ap proaching to a further depreciation of the currency of the realm. From the course of the debates in another place (the House of Commons), there was now no reason to expect any alteration for the better S.t the present state rf the currency, and it was now certain that it was the ultimate determination of Go vernment that no alteration should take place with re spect to the Bank Restriction Act, and having ob served the progressive depreciation of Bank-notes for the last fourteen years, he had thought it full time to have recourse to what thelaw ad left to individuals to resort to, if they should think proper ; and if any Person should ask, whether he would refuse bank rotes in payment of a lawful debt, he should au swer, that he had refused them, and that lie bad given notice to his tenants, that lie should not re teive Bank-notes in payment of rent. He was now • perfectly prepared not only to vindicate the legality :of this step, but he was come to that House to prove 'she principle upon which he had done so ; and he thought he could not have acted moreequitably and justly than to receive payment invalue,as to weight, as the currency then stood at the time the several con tracts were entered into. All old contracts should be paid in a currency of the exact value which it bore at the time that contract was made; and, he asked, could there be a mere fair .and equitable principle than this He had endeavoured to ascer tain, as precisely as possible, the price Of gold at the various periods, froM the returns made to the House of Commons; and in consequence of the depreciation of Bank notes, he found that upon !eases dated is 1787, he could no longer consent to receive Bank notes in payment of those rents, but to receive . nothing but the legal coin of the realm, for vriOpurppse be gavy notice to his tenants that , • plae would only, in the first instance, consent to re-. ceive guineas, but to avoid giving trouble as much as possible, for the next species bf payment he should receive Portugal..gold coin of "equal weight and value, and bank nowt only at their depreciated value. But it was said that there was something harsh and perverse in this mode of conduct ; he would ask where was the hardship in requiring pay ment in that way, for it was a self-evident proposi tion that in the proportion as the currency was de l i - preciated, in the same proportion a rise must take place in the price of all commodities—in labour, manufactures, Stc. The covenant of a lease re quired payment in a certain known quantum in %k eight of the precious metals of a given value. The right of a party to claim this had never been disputed ; it was quite clear that every man grant- ing a lease was fairly and justly entitled to receive his rents in that way. At the same time he took that opportunity of declaring, that so far from hay ing entered upon any bargain for an advance on land depending on the depreciation of the currency, or insisting on being paid for that land in gold, he had abstained altogether from granting any land on any such conditions, and should continue to do so until the currency of the country shall be actually depreciated below its intrinsic value, and was further prepared to receive an abatement of rent in the sasno proportion with such de preciation ;—and then, the Noble Lord would ask, what could he more fair or equitable The Noble Lord here entered into a disquisition upon the nature of rents, from which he argued, that a portion or share of the gross produce, after paying all necessary expenses, and allowing a suffi cient profit to the tenant, was to be paid as rent ; and could it be said that the tenant was entitled to take advantage of the great proportion, or share on the depreciation of the currency, and to pay the landlord in that depreciated currency ? There might be an increased price arising from the in creased demand of any commodity; but the depre. ciation of the currency arose from a totally different cause. He believed no one would venture to say, after all the experience they have had, that paper money was not liable to depreciation ; and he must say, that symptoms of that depreciation had now made itself known in this country. He believed it would be found that the scale which he had adopted was favourable to landlords, because the real value of the lawful coin of the kingdom ws demandable thereby. In the first place, then, it was no hard ship ; and that there had been a depreciation, he should only refer their Lordships to what appeared upon the Report of the Bullion Committee ; and he insisted that it would also appear, that instead of gold being dearer at this time, it would be found cheaper than at any former period. His Lord ship then cited extracts from the returns made to the House of Commons, in order to prove this position, and to show that the whole was attributable to the continuation of the Bank restric- tion Act. The system which he adopted, he de fended, not merely as justifiable but precedented ; and he adverted to the practice in some parts of Ireiand, to show that that principle was still ad hered to; also the recent instance of a Member of Parliament, who, in lending a sum of 50001. to a friend, paid it in bullion, in order to secure the repayment, and it was contracted, that the repay ment was to be made in the same weight of bul lion. It had also become the practice, in granting longer leases than usual, that the contract should be to pay in specie, according to the average of the last five years. Satisfied, therefore, in the rectitude of his own conduct, he should presevere firmly but liberally in what his Lordship conceived to be an equitable demand. Having thus, as he conceived, made out such a case as was unanswera ble in a Court of Equity, he would ask how any Noble Lord could fairly animadvert on the black malignity and bad motives which influenced his conduct. He had done no more than make a legal demand of a just right ; if he nad done more, the law would protect the meanest individual from such a demand. Having thus dispatched that which related to his own private conduct, his Lordship proceeded to the immediate question before the House, and in doing so, he adverted to the various inconveniences which were the reeult of the Bank Restriction Act—the depreciation of Bank•paper ; an event never contemplated by the law, and the adoption cf a system from which the State de rived no advantage whatever, while the deficiency was taken out of the pockets of the people for the sole profit, benefit, and advantage of the Bank of England. He was almost tempted to say, that he would rather pay some millions annually out of the receipts of the rev _line, to make up any defici ency to the Bank, and say to them, " for God's sake let us have the legal coin of the country." There was a loss at present of not less than 16,000,0001. annually, and it would be impossible to incur any expense beyond that sum. If the present system was to be continued, it would be impossible to pay the Army and Navy without the most enormous losses, and the evils and inconve niences must be daily augmented, while the only advantage to be gained was, that the Bank of Eng. land held a certain proportion of Exchequer Bills, • and in order to pay the public creditor in that de. preciated currency, they induce the Bank of Eng land to take their Exchequer Bills, who have nothing but bad bank paper to give for them. With respect to the assertion that gold was grown dearer, the Noble Lord contended, that on the contrary it was grown cheaper, for if there was an advance of price on commodities, it was evident that coin must be grown cheaper, and this was as plain a proposition as could be advanced, and the strongest proof cf it was, that even China now returned much of that silver which used to be exported to that country, and as to the argument that there was a scarcity of gold, so that it could not be sent out of the Ki:,gdont, he contended that this was now the natural channA for gold to find its way to France. South America, which, from her gold mines, was the source of all the gold which came into Europe, sent her gold to Spain and Portugal, and from thence it went into France and the other parts of the Continent ; but that intercourse being prevented, it was impossible to suppose that the gold remained in South America, it has found its way into this country, and it was the easiest way for it to come to this.country, ix fransitu, to France ; it was impos sible it could be otherwise. With respect to the paper currency, it must become forced, the effect of which would be a total .overthrow. of the spirit of all contracts, and havihg i paper currency thus dependant on force, it would become nothing more nor lest than assignats, and by making Bank notes legal tender, they would expose the community at large to that fraud which was practised against the public creditor r.lone ; and on this ,he appealed to the justice and equity of the Houses he appealed tb the Noble Lotd on the Woolsack, who was the protector of all legal contracts. Ile appealed in behalf of all those persons who made and held contracts—not for those only, but for the numerous and distressed classes of the community who were living on their small means, the result of their former induslry— those who had flattered themselves that they had a sufficiency for their support through life. The dayly labourer was not affected by it, because his labour could not be dispensed with, and according to the depreciation, he might rise the price of his labour, and was thereby enabled to stem the tor rent. But against this proposal he had not only the authority of Mr. Pitt, but of the Judges of the land, who, upon the solemn consideration of the question, observed, that whatever inconveniencies might arise the Courts of Law could not apply a remedy—they thlught the legislature had acted. wisely, having the example of France before their eyes, in not making the Bank note legal tender, as it only depreciated that which ii was meant to protect. In France the paper system was supported by force and terror, but this did not uphold the finances, and the paper currency of France became depreciated. But in the more re cent instance of Austria, by a late edict of that Go vernment, the paper currency which used to pass for five florins was reduced to one, and infinite confusion was thereby introduced in all contracts in that country. By having recourse to that which is now recommended as a remedy to such an evil, it must be destructive of all system and the ruin of millions, it must overwhelm all property in all or ders of society. It was vain to say that any Legis lative interference could uphold that value upon notes which they did not possess, and every attempt to do it was big with mischief. It appeared to him that the scheme of the Noble Earl was some- thing like a Bank deposit—it gave a credit, but provided for no security of deposit. But in his opinion, if a credit was to be given, a certain quan tity of bullion should be deposited. But the prin. cipal objection he had to this scheme was, that there was no such security, and for these reasons he hoped the second reading of the Bill would be re jected. Lord BATHURST was of opinion that the Noble Lord (King) would be amply indemnified for the depreciation of the Paper Currency, by the mode which he had proposed to his tennants. Did the Noble Lord, by the proposition he made, in demnify for the failure he fancied a second time.— ( Hear, hear !)When the price of gold fell he low ered not his rents, but when the gold rose in price he advanced them. In 1608, he contended, the price of various articles were higher than at present. Timber, iron, raw hides, &c. so that the opinion of the depreciation of Paper was wrong urged, as a cause of the rise of articles of traffic. The former Administrations had made no attempts at a mea sure such as the present, and he believed there would be a general disinclination felt to go into the merits of the case, hoping that the second reading would be postponed to some future day. Lord KING made a short explanation. Lord HOLLAND felt conscious of the impos sibility of saying any thing new on a subject so well known ; but from the species of argument resorted , to by th?. Noble Lord (Bathurst), he felt necessi ated to repel the clamours raised against the pro- , prietors of lands. If Lord King had acted fairly to his family and to himself, should the Govern.: ment find themselves agrieved, they alone had themselves to blame ; the laws should be so fa shioned as not to offer injury unto private property ; when they encroached on that, it was time for them to retrace their steps. He contended that the mode Lord King had adopted in his rental was quite fair, and well justified by care and honesty. With respect to the views of the last Administration, had their prospects been closed, as they expected, in ; peace, the cash payments of the Bank would have been resumed. The present measure would ia.; volve the country in mischief and trouble were it adopted. The evil complaimed of; he believed, was come to a height, but the measure proposed would make it no better. The fiillacy of the Noble Lord's measure was, in constituting an invariable standard for what could never be regulated. Public value lay in intrinsic worth, and, on general opinion, for which no standard could be found. Were the motion of the Noble Lord adopted, the Govern ment would nut remain in the King, Lords, and Commons, but with the Directors of the Bank ; and was such discretionary power to be left with men, over whose private transactions the public servants had no authority, it became the duty of the nation's Representatives to repel such manifest at tack on right. He confessed that he felt no argu ment against the resumption of cash payments but what would be in full strength at any future period, and wished the restrictions to be taken away as soon as possible, and the time specified so that the Bark might fit itself for the occasion. Lord ROSSE confessed belief that all the argu ments for establishing a depreciation of Paper Currency were without foundation. The Bank notes in circulation for the present year were no more than the compound currency of paper, gold and silver for the year of restriction 1797 ; such being the case where existed the depreciation ? Was the Bank to resume the cash payment, they would have to resume the restriction in less than a twelvemonth. He complained against the Bill in not extending itself to Ireland ; hoping, however, that it would be allowed to pass into a Committee, where it could be better regulated. Lord LAUDERDALt was astonished at the calmness with which the House received a meat sure which would create evils worse than those it attempted to remedy. There was a total want of sound argument on the subject in all those who at tempted to sustain it. The Noble Lord contended with the opinion of Lord Rosse, on the deprecia tion, which he believed to be void of foundation 3 The conduct of the Noble Lord (King) he con ceived to be just and proper, in the instructions he gave his tenantry ; and he considered it as a boon, to be allowed to pay their rents in paper or gold as they pleased. . The prosperity of the country required a circulating medium, it rule] the traffic of the people. Gold and silver vanished in France,when the people lost confidence in the Bankers; but so soon as the paper was ruined all the. old - cuirmcy reappeared, all persofti were rejoiced at getting rid Of those who preyed upon their means of existence. The Noble Lord conjured his Ma. jesty's Ministers to consider what they were about to do, and not give the:r approval to a measure so se -y carelessly explained. The Bank of Scotland had not one note on issue but what was liable to be made cash at the Bank on demand, and the whole system seemed better arranged than that of Eng lani. He hoped, at least, that something like ar= gument would be used by his Majesty's Ministers before they passed the Lord REDESDALE belieVed that the restric tions of 1797 made Ole paper into cash for the service of the Public in paying of taxes, Ste; Though he somewhat disagreed with the measure, he thought it might be amended in a Committee much to the benefit of the Public. Lord GRENVILLE considered the present measure as the most important of any which had for a long while engaged the public attention. A wrong turn was given to the measure in the House of Commons, the eyes of the House were shut against it, aid they acted contrary to nature, iate rest, and policy. The nnisters of the House of Lords deigned nit to speak on the subject, znd t'te only one who•ventured had forgotten all argt - ment. His Lordship concluded an eloquent and most argumentative sp,el:ll with v. i ig against the Bill. The Earl of LIVERPOOL had forborne to rise, until he should have heard al tl at could be said by other Noble Lords. The nrinciple of t'le Bill, as he had before stated, he l.ighly appro ,ed of, though he was still of opinion that it was nut right to extend the principle of legisl ition without strong mot vas, but if possible to re.:t t.n the law as it stood. He still was of opinion, that the examrle of the Noble Lord alluded to (Lord King) was not likely to be followed, but saying that, he by no means would be understood to impute any blame to that Noble Lord, or to infer that his own no tions of what appeared the public good should influence the individual conduct of any matt. But the interest of the landlord he held to be inseparable ' from the interest of the tenant, and that both must flourish or decline together. He was not prepared to think so sanguinely as the Noble Mover of the efficacy of his Bill ; but on the coolest reflection he was persuaded that some of that tendency was necessary under the present circumstances of the country. With respect to what had fallen from the Noble Baron opposite (Lord Grenville, he must obsei ve that no subject had ever received, both in Parliament and out of doors, a more ample and complete discussion than had attended the subject of the paper currency and the Bank restrictions ; and as to the scarcity of gold, that was the neces. sary conse:,unce of the present state of Europe and of the world, and mr.s indeed little more than in a due proportion to the increased consumption in this country of all the articles of necessity or convenience. The act adopted in 1797 respecting the Bank was an act of deliberate wisdom, founded on necessity ; and it could not be maintained that the principle of that measure was less exceptionable than that which the present Bill had in view. He denied that Bank paper had suffered any real depreciation ; and adduced as a proof, that the 70 millions of annual revenue, which might all be paid in Bank paper, exceeded threefold the utmost issue made by the Bank in any year. The great object of the great man, Mr. Pitt, who had resorted to the measure in 1797, was, to place the public creditor upon the best footing. The Bill at first was temporary, but circumstances, within a year, bad occurred to extend its enact ment to the end of the war. The same policy, he contended, ought then to be pursued. It was found impracticable for the Bank to pay in specie, and were it otherwise, and gold were actually paid, it would infallibly go out of the country to tbe aggrandisement of the enemy. He concluded with voting ftir the Bill. Earl STANHOPE, before he should say a word in reply ID the arguments he had heard, was desirous to hear from a Noble Earl (Lauderdale) an explanation of an expression which that Noble Earl had used in reference to him ; namely, " peculiar motives." The Earl of LAUDERDALE explained, and denied any inten tion to convey the slightest offence to the Noble Earl. Earl STANHOPE was perfectly satisfied, and did not ask for the explanation so much for his own satisfaction as to prevent any misconception which the words might excite in the ears of I others; fur he was conscious, that if there was a man breath- I who contemplated and pursued public objects without any selfish regard, that person was himself. He was, indeed, $ speculative man, and had spent large sums of money lo the ; prosecution of schemes which he thought might be beneficial to the country ; but in thus pursuing his inclination, be was only performing what he considered his duty ; for every man enjoying an ample income, without labour or habitual industry, be regarded as being no other than a suit of guardian for dis- I posing of that income for the public benefit. He should not at that late hour take up much more of their Lordships' time. He had not indeed flattered himself that he should have the support of Ministers, but it was singularly whimsical, that the speeches of his Noble Friends against his Bill, bad converted Ministers in his favour, and done that which all his arguments would have attempted in vain. The question being then put from the Woolsack, a division ' took place, in which Earl Stanhope's motion was carried 36 to 12. The Bill was then ordered to be committed for Thursday next, aid the,r Lordships summoned accordingly. Adjourned to to-morrow (this day). HOUSE OF COMMONS. TUtiDAY, JULY 2. - - The House was summoned into the House of Peers by the Deputy Usher of the Black Rod, to hear the Royal Assent given, by Commission, to the Spirit Drawback Suimension Bill, the Act relating to the improvement of the Bogs in Ireland, Vexatious Arrests Eill, and the Irish Insolvent Debtors' Bill. ADDRESS TO THE PRINCE. REGENT. On the motion of Mr. S re PIIENS, an Address was permitted to he made to his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, humbly requesting him to order from the Governors of the West India Islands, an account of the number of Slaves until the latest time such accounts had been taken. An account of the whole inha bitants, with the number of the free persons of colour. Tht cures of Clergymen of the church of F.ngland resident and non resident, with the extent of the parishes and the amount of their inhabitants, with the number ot the Dissenting Clergy men. An account of all acts relating to punishment of offences of Slaves, and acts of any incorporate body on the religion of Slaves, with the number of the prosecutions at the bar of the Admiralty Court of vessels on the Slave Trade, and the account of Slaves bound apprentices, dates of their indeutures, and names ot those living. A Messenger from the Lords intimated their Lordships a i p. proval to the Westiminster Hustings Election Bill. ! On the motion of Mr. 'Vow, the House, at its rising, was ordered to h: aujoerned to Monday. Er. Swale observing •he thinnees of the House, and the in terval of time wich they had awaited, without doing any busi ness moved, that the House should he a d j ourned. The SPEAKER observed ; that the House had given attendance to the Peers before four o clock, and having returned, were for a considerable time without performing any businesa. Such de lay he did not deem proper, and the House had no occasion vs indulge those Members who had Motions to make, when they did not attend at the usual time. He believed the motion of the Hon. Gentleman WU highly expedient. The motion was then put front the Chair, and carried. The House then adjourned to Monday. i~