Star. — London, England, 1816-03-26 00:00:00

• '7"IP - 'Noble Friend (Lord l'Jlmerston) in withdrawing the Estimates, was to take :,n opportunity of shew#o.g, in connexion, the amount of tie reductions to be made • in the course of the present year. In some of the &hates which had taken place. he (Lord Castlereagh) tnought he had deprecated the disposition shewn by sciiiiklrThe - Gentlemen opposite to consider the Esti. mates as a part of the pm manent.peace establishment, or ever try consider the expense on thein, as that which was to cnntinue througho - ut the present year. It was the wish of Government. to make immediately all the reductions which could he safely effected in the - first instance, as it was their hope to bring forward .Estimates materially different in point of expense in •aI entre year. 'taut in consevence of the disposition h id been manifested to argue on the Estimates the expense on them were to continue through '•.-* the while 01 the present year, his Noble Friend had to withdraw them, in order to chew them the various items before the year expired. It was intended to let the House see (as neatly as this could be done) what would be the expense of the end of the year.. as well as that of the beginning. To'accornplish such • a task with all the vigilance tha could possibly be exerted, it was obvious the inquiry necessary must take up soma considerable time. A part est the re ductions contcm?lated, from local circumstances, could not be completed at the commencement of the year. The object of his Noble Friend, he gibbed it to be understood, was to .hew the House what changes had been made, what were now making, and what would be made in the course of the present year. The House would be enabled to see how long some of the expenses which appeared on the Estimates would con tinue. It would be seen whet ''ere to remain tot _three or six months, or what For a longer period. In this respect the Estimates to be produced would go further than those. which had been already before the House. ' • Mr. WYNNE expressed satisfaction at the altered shape ot those Estimates. The course pursued after the peace of 1763, that or 1733, and that of 1802, had been to produce estimates for the first, seconi, and third quarters of the year, in order to enoble the House to judge of the reductions which it was pro. posed to make. He could wish this had been done on the present occasion. He begged now to ask, ii any view would be given in the new estimates of the number of General and Staff Officers, and Officers ot the Ordnance, serving on foreign stations, :is had been given of those serving at home ? It this were done, he should move for similar returns of the slumber of officers serving abroad in 1792 and 1803, that these might be compared with the present esta blishment. Lord CASTLEREAGH hoped the Honourable Gentleman would postpone his motion for the present till his Noble Friend had brought forward his Esti. Mates, when be (Lord Palmerston) would take an opportunity of desciibing the reductions to be made on the Foreign Staff in the course el the present year; and he did not foresee any ob j ection nn the part of the Noble Lord to the production of the returns alluded to. With respect to the returns tor the first three quarters of the year, which the Honourable Gentleman wished for, lie did nut see that these could be given, but those about to be brought forward, from the arrangement lie had described, would, he apprehended, answer his purper. Mr. WYNNE postponed his motion for the present. Mr. BENNErr moved for Returns of the Dates of the Recorder's Reports, distinguishing the time which had elapsed from the several convict;ons up to the period nt their being made, since Itnuary 5. 1811; and also a similar Return of the Repo, is made from January 5, 1790, to January 5, 1795.-or. dered. Mr. LUSHINGTON, seeing. an Honourable and Learned Gentleman io his pace, begged to ask him if he had any objection to postpone his rootion which stood for to-morrow, respecting the execution of powers granted to the Treasury by the .51th of Geo. (li. cap. 171, to mitigate the Customs and Excise Laws ? The various papers connected with the sub ject, which he had now moved for, were not yet ready, and some of them could not be produced before Wednesday. Mr. BROUGHAM was nawilling the Motion should be further delayed, more especially as his Riglit Honourable Friend had given notice of a Mo tion for the only open day in the present week. If that motion were waved, he should have no objection to comply with the wish of the Honourable Gentleman opposite. Mr. ESTERN reminded the Hon. Gentleman, tl at the Commitve on the Agricultural Distress of the Country, stood for Thursday. He had hoped this would be suffered to take precedence of die Order of the Day. Mr. BROUGHAM was sensible of the para. mount importance of the subject just referred to. If the Hon. Gentleman did not think it might be as well to pit off the Committee till Monday, he would wave his motion, which he had proposed to fis for Thus& y. Mr. V YNNE and Mr. LUSHINGTON offered a few words on the subject. blr: BROUGHAM complained of the delay in presenting the Papers which had been ordered to be laid before the House on his motion ; but at the same time he begged it to be understood, fiat he was quite ready to proceed with his motion even upon the papers which were already before the House. Mr. LUSHINGTON observed, that the neces sary time had not been afforded for the printing of the Papers, as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had not moved for them all on the same day. He referred 10 the House to know whether, in sorb circumstances, i t w o uld ba decent for the Hon. Gentleman to press his motion ? Atter some further conversation between these Ho nourable Members, Mr. BUOUGUADI finally find his 'notion for Tuesday eennight. On the motion of Mr. FORBES there was ordered to be laid before the House, a return of the names' and number of officers of the army, receiving pen sions tor the loss of limbs or for wounds, specifying the nature of the cases, the amount of their pensions, 'and the date when they commenced. Also an ac count of the deductions made from thb half-pay an:l pensions of wounded officers in the wily. The likr accounts were ordered, on the motion of the same Honourable Gentleman, for the Navy and Marines. A Petition was pre.iented. from the-town. (*bikes ter against the Noperty Tar, which was read *3 ordered to lk on the table. NO NEW TAU% The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Ways and Means, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose.—lt was not his intention to take up any large portion of the time of the Committee, as the pro position which he Wished to submit to it was very short and simple. He would therefore confine him self to a short explanat:on of the nature of the mea• sure, which was eb►nt to propose. The House would reeqllect how, the various branches of the Customs' Asti Excise Duties had been augmented and applied duting the war. They would also re collect that,. during the later periods of the war, in the years 1807,1809, and 1811. the expenses of the Loans had been charged upon these war taxes. It was, therefore, highly important that the Consoli dated Fund should be rendered equal to bear those changes permanently. This would be best effected by continuing those war. taxes already appropriated for.this purpose by the vote of Parliament. He, therefore, now intended to propose, that the War Taxes under the heads of Customs, should be car ried to the Consolidated Fund. to defray those ex penses incurred during the war. Considerable addi. tams had been made to the Duties on Imports, Ex- Potts, and Tonnage; but these. with all - the other War Taxes, as they now stood, would, by the exist ing act, expire in a very few months. It was his intention, at the proper time. to propose to the House, some modifications in the Duties on Im ports, as he believed they were those which might be made permanent with the least inconvenience to the public. With respect, therefore, to the whole of the War Taxes under the head of Customs, - he intended that they should be made permanent, and carried to 'the Consolidated Fund. But with vegand to the other great branch—the Excise War Duties, his intention was to keep them separate from the Consolidated Fund ; and although he did not foresee any exact pe riod when they could be given up. yet he would not propose to declare them absolutely permanent. By keeping them separate from the Consolidated Fund, they could, 'rem time to time, he brought before the !louse, and receive such modifications as might be thought convenient. For the present,' therefore, he should only proi o e to continue the Excise War Duties for a period of five years. At the same time, fie must say, he saw no early prospect of being able to give up those Duties. He had some measures in contemplation, for the purpose of repressing smug- Wino, which he hoped would have the effect of making this branch of the revenue considerably more productive. It was not his intention to propose aay continuation of the additional duty on Malt ; and, in consequence of the cessation of this duty, some re gulations would be necessary for the convenience of the trade, with a view to the repayment of the duty of the stock on hand when the Act would expire.— There was another reason why it was advisable to separate the Excise duties from the Consolidated Fund, arising from the loss which would be occa sio►ned to the Public on the amount of the current duties, from the way in which the taxes going to the Consolidated Fund were paid into the Exchequer.— l'he whole estimated amount of the war Excise duties, deducting the additional Malt Duty, was ae3,Boo,ooo—that of the Customs, 2,760,000. Al though he would not now go into any general finan cial statement, he might mention to the House, that although they had thought proper to reject that system of finance which appeared, in his judgment, to h : • the best, yet he had no intention of attempting. to substitute any new taxes to replace that of which he had beet deprived, nor to provide for the expenses of any loan. He should, therefore, attempt to de. tray the expenses of any sums which might be bur rowed in the course of the year, in such a way as to prevent any material pressure upon the money market. With this view, during the present year, it was most desirable to take nothing from the Sinking Fund.— Having given such short explanations as lie thought were necessary, he would conclude by moving the Resolution to which be anticipated no objection. The itesolotion was then read—" That it is the opinion of vie Committee that the several duties of Customs, di rected by the Act of the last Session of Parliament to be continued till the sth day of July, 1816, be fur ther continued 'and made permanent." On the question being put, Mr. TIERNEY said, that all he gathered from the statement of the Right Honourable Gentleman was, that having been driven by a decision of the House out or his favourite post, he now intended to supply the deficiency by attempting to impose new his:Oleos upon the public, but to defray the•expenses of a loan by modifications of some of the existing duties. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that he had certainly stated that he did not mean to propose any great measure of taxation, but to de fray the expense of such sums as it might be neces sary to borrow, so as not to charge it upon the Sink ing Fund. It could be done therefore by the modifi cation of some of the existing duties. He was sure the House would think it best to keep entire the Sinking Fund ; and when the question was as to the preservation of the Sinking Fund, they were at least bound to do so much for the support of the public credit during the preient distress of the country, as nut to touch that Fund.—(Hear, hear). ' Mr. TI E RNEY.—As they were not now going' into the details of the Budget, he did not feel himself called upon to give any opinion on the general state ment of the Right Honourable Gentleman. He could only say, that he was very happy to find that the Right Honourable Gentleman had not carried into i effect that terrible revenge, with which he had threat ened the House in the shape of new taxes, in easel they dared to reject the Property Tax. (Hear, hear). It now appeared that this threat had been a mere brutuaa fames f and he would say this of it, that of all the propositions that he had ever heard, it would have been the most foolish.—•(Heor, hear, hear). — As to the question now before the House,. he saw no objection to making the Customs War Duties perma nent. It was an arrangement from which he thought no inconvenience could result, and it was one to which the faith of Parliament was pledged by its votes, as to the limns during the war. As to the other branch of the revenue, the Excise, it was fOr the present only intended to continue the War Duties for five years, and the annual prodece . of these (in round numßerk) ens adulated at You millions. Un this subject there was as old battle between himself and the Right honourable Getitleman ; and he still Maintained that, with regard to this part of the sub ject, the Right Honourable Gentleman did not lock the situation of the country fairly in the face. He had no confidence in any contemplated arrangements for the prevention of smuggling, as none of those which had already been adopted, and which, before they were actually tried, had been declared infallible —nay, the increase of the revenue to be thereby made calculated upon in the Ways and Means for the year, after all had entirely failed. How canld any arrangements be good against smugglers who calculated that they could have good profit by saving one cargo nut of seven ? He could not therefore agree to allow the Right Honourable Gentleman to 'carry-on for five years an experimental warfare with smugglers. It would be better at once to appoint a Committee to inquire into the subject, for the purpose of supplying themselves and the House with the ne cessary information. He begged the Right Hon. Gentleman to turn, this subject in his mind. The CHANCELLOR of .the EXCHEQUER -He begged positively to disclaim the imputation contained in the first part of the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman, as to a threat of imposing. new taxes in case the Property Tax was not continued.— No such threat had ever been held out by him.— What lie had said about it was, that in the last ses sion he had proposed certain additions in the assessed taxes, part of which had been agreed to by Pat lia ment ; and as to the rest he had said that they coil; i afford no adequate substitute tor the Property Tax ; therefore lie pressed the Property Tax more earnc-tly upon the House, because there was no tax which could, in his opinion, be substituted for it. The war excise taxes formed the most available branch of the revenue which was left, and he certainly did think, notwithstanding the opinion of the Right Honour ' able Gentleman (Mr. Tierney), that by vigilance and activity much might be done for the repression of smuggling, He eves hoped, that by some arrapge ments which were intended, in the way of increasing the power of the revenue officers, that. it might almost be entirely put an end to. Mr. PONSONBY wished to observe, that so far as he understood, they were now to proceed upon an opinion. that exactly the same amount of expense was to be incurred by the country, as had been proposed before the decision of the House on the Property I'ax. So tar as he understood, the Loan was to be exactly the amount at which those Taxes had been estimate I which were now given up. He wished to know it if he was accurate in thus understanding the matter? because if it was not intended to incur the same ex penses in the shape of a loan as in the shape of taxes, he should be very happy. But he understood it was not so; that no diminution of expenditure was to be made ; that a loan was to be made to the amount of the taxes discontinued, the charges of which loan were not to be defrayed from the Sinking Fund, but by the modification of certain ta::.es. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. The Right Honourable Gentleman had certainly un derstood him rightly. The question of expenditure WAS one which must rest on its own grounds. If Government proposed any expense which was unne cessary, as soon as it was :hewn how it could be avoided, they would immediately give it up. It was the duty of the House to watch this ; but he di,i not anticipate any greater reduction than had been al ready made. It was equally the duty of the House to watch, and of the Government to correct, any thing in the expenditure which could be avoided, consistently with the safety and interests of the coun try. He did allow that a loan might have the effect of encouraging expenditure in the Government, be cause it was a mode of raising money without any 'immediate pressure upon the country; but be yolked that in the present iestance it would hare no such ef fect upon tire measures of Government ; that it would not prevent them from cutting off any expense which could be avoided with safety to the nation.—(Hear, /sear, hear.) Mr. PO . NSONBY said, that as he had rightly un derstoOd the Right Honourable Gentleman, the case was shortly this—that the country must still stand under the same estimated expenses as those proposed at the commencement of the Session, and there was to be no diminution whatever in the supplies. Mr. HUSKISSON.—It appeared to him that the Right Honourable Gentlemot who spoke last had confounded two things no less distinct than a Cone. mittee of Supply and a Committee of V.ra-is and Means. The duty of the House of Commons was to watch the supplies. When these were granted, it was then for the House to consider of the Ways and Means for raising the Supplies. The Right Honou rable Chancellor of the Exchequer had entertained and expressed a hope that the expenditure of the country might be diminished to the extent of nine mil lions, and he, for one, was sorry that this hope had been disappointed. As to the Supply, the House, he was sure, would listen attentively to any Honour able Member who would point out what reductions could be made. But when the Estimates had been voted, it was, in his opinion, inspossible to meet the expense in any better way than that proposed by his Right Honourable Friend (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer). He would ask the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite, whether he conceived that, in the present state of the establishments—when reduc tions were making as fast as possible—whether there was any way for providing the sums required for the expenditure of the year better than that which had been proposed ? The 'ordinary revenue was certainly not sufficient. A loan, or something equivalent to a loan; was the only wise pian. Mr. PONSONBV observed, that he must have sat so many years in the liouse.to very little purpose, if he did not know the difference between a Committee of Supply and a Committee of Ways and Means.— What he had said was this—that the amount w/iLli the Finance Minister had calculated upon receiving from the Property and Malt Taxes, he now intended to supply himself with by means of a loan. Now, as far as he understood the argument of the Rigid Ho nourable Gentleman who spoke last, it went to this— that since the whole nine millions could not be saved, they were to save none.— (Load cries of Hear, hear ! front the Opposition.) There was no question that the ordinary revenue would not cover the expenses of the year : the amount of the loan was the question. Mr. HUSKISSON said, that the House was not now discussing the loan. It was not in a Committee of Supply. Mr. BARING thought the tweet it sideratifit for the Home at present w, a lc h ro i on m ids by the Chancellor of quer, that becaur^ the =inure had rtj and most oppri.lqive tax, he vow, something sro - uld b: made to WIT, an . adulated a measure to preysinjutiottsly Lc credit. The Right Hnn. Gentlen. last insisted that those st ho now LA: mistook the Committee of w,,y; and Committee of Supply. Now what w,ts plained of in the system cf Aiini ter. House was made lint to vote the so: looking at the means of the country to an expenditure, which w.ss trade an ..! lion in the Committee of Ways and M contrary to all the roles of prudence; practice of every private individiri!, any wisdom in the elm 'gement of ha looked to his means before be res expense. How could the floit,e lo o k „. 1 of sense at estimates wail it knew !Ina m, tty could afford ? It was now svcn that could not be voted without having rtc,,ursr intolerable tits on the one han.:, or a rtr!asure to ifi. jure the pu'?lic credit nn the otaer. Holve ve i , was this result farm all that had be en statej by rite Chancellor of the Exclleper, th.tt h. re gas 13 % 4, 4. tion fir the country brit tit.lo , . , king at v ie with a conviction that retrenchments we ;ea b, dute; necessary. Lord 'CASTLE R to'‘. CH apprehended 'zt Ma. Oita the lhoperty Tax cootinue.:, or 4 !cart ors, 0 , vided, the sante necessity for eo n• my ; , i , it4 , 1 : T .1 - , lie admitted that the (loos: ion of eipeadlotte reduced to the narrowest c , ,mpn.s. Bdt it must also he taken wish retcria ce to the %t 0.. of the country, and its ultimate stew ty. The Noe e I Lord here protested against the gloomy so t , of t ,, resources of the State, in which smoe persn os j u g Red, and pointed out the great naval and military re duction which had already taken place. T. banding of the second battalions, the dissolatim cf the Militia, and other reductions. It had be ta asked by a Right lion. Gentleolan opposite, vnae l an account of the increase or diminution in cetoia offices would be Lid on the table, which, by Act cf Pailiament o should he presented to the House once before the 25th of March ! This paper world be presented in the course of the night ; but that paper would 'afford no great satisfaction to the House; ter that account being made up only to the sthof j a , nuary, did not, of course, include the reductions made since that date. Another reduction w ou ld a l to take place about the sth of July, and one o f st o greater extent subsequently. He, therefore, aeuit move for the production cf a parer, whab won disnlay at - one glance the whole amount of sarine, and he doubted not that the House would w e very con,iderahle. No one would more readily con. cur than he would in every scheme of mint eco. nomy, such as would be consistent v.ith the dignity and safety of the country ; but he deprecated the idea that our resources v:ere exhausted, or that the distresses of the country, however severe they mtv seem at present, were such as could prevent this ere it Empire from supporting a station suitable to be greatness, or from supplying the necessary expeows. He hoped the House would, in enterien into no question, bear with it not only a strict regard to a just economy, but also a consideration of that IVA due to its character, and take care not to sactiftcc its serious interests to a comparatively trittng use. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. 'Firm)) has contemplated, in rather gloomy colours, the continuance of the duties proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as being inducive to a system of smuggling ; but it was sufficient for the Home to watch over their operation, and not remove duties ac knowiedged to be productive, because by possibility they may give encourgemant to smuggling. Mr. TIERNEY could not bear to hear the Noble Lord make such comments Ott the expressions th.it may have fallen from that side of the House, as to represent them drawing gloomy pictu:es of the oat of the country. Their woids could bear no such sttuetion. But when the is:Ale Lord and hi, oil leagoes began to talk of economy, it was but proper to spew bow little they intended to practice it. lu his mine!, the Member for Suff ilk (Mr. Gt och) had dnae more for introducing economy into the ex ; :enditure than any other Member of that House ; for in a lon I tone of voice, which, if spoken on the Oppoiitinit side of the House, would have been termed clamour by the Noble L. rd, the lion. Member fir Suffok declaie.i, that nukes economy were seriously intended, he mill no longer support the Ministers.—(Nair.) —And as the Noble Lord begins to tind that place and ecoin• my go hand in hand, it is not improbable hut thit tear of losing the one may induce him to practise. the other.—(Hear.)—Toe Noble Lord asks, "Are ;lies: estimates intended for the year ? Do we not tell yon that a great reduction will woo take place, lone fore the expiration. of the year ? The House was clod. lenged to go into the Comm itt ee ion the estimates, and was pr, matoa to have every item saiisfactoray es• planted. The Noble Lord said, 66 I tall prove to yon that all is right," and now the Member for has proved that all was wrong. The Noble L the!' said, " put off the Estimates for anotloa %seek, aid we will bring you down others that will delight your ' heart."—(Hear, hear, luar.)—" But before halt 411 nour is past," said NI,. Tiernoy, 6 ‘ Mil L.n the Navy Estimates, woat t.:e NoOle. Lord's noutas of economy are. IVe are also promised a pilPtlt in which it will be seen, that in the Treasury out-guiles alone, of the last year, there was an increase of 41(1 0(10. 1 will also move for information relative to another £6,000 continued charge. Ot that torn however, the Noble Lord says, 6 Don't TtliaJ tt-- Lout) bless you, that paper was drawn up thra rnorths ago, ashen I was extravagant ;—(Crres kar, and iauglifer) —but now I am become sr) mist, and hi do wonders.' But will the House suf. ler itself to beguiled by such a promise ? It t ha' dis• covered aq economist in the Noble Lord, I congra• tulate it on its discovery. Much of his economy is not to take place until Ole aith of July, about the time of our rising ; but if the House really expects wino• my, let it press on the Ministers. I shall repeat a motion which I made last year, fo: the reduction of the third War Secietary—(Hear)—and if the House g doel doubt not but we shall at length obtain what we hold s its on dtlutety in a wayaffections which has oftlrecountr g y iv.en country—(Hear, s k t e r a o r n ig) so much desire, and what the country so much stands hapaitit l ve WAS IN Inn,/ D' fit the Elk,. ;to 1 :to tar% • au tikP cnte th it nd- til-refore it " r tip). • the peil. be oan tpai t ea of 4 Loi; bt ?I^Ats feri cb rno.t t) ent, , WAS, that uIF plit whin; o supp.ol el leans. Thi. * 4 cunti3r7 to th r who, he h e S alTay to iocur with Any de.Atee. rnllell the t ,h-sceritrta.el