Star. — London, England, 1819-07-07 00:00:00

Old Bailey; • especially the Clerk of the Ar. ; ,,gns, and by the Clerks of the various Police Ofices, who have the best possible opportunity of knowing the facts. The last declared to the Committee, that it is a frequent, and almost an invariable question to t l:em , on the part of those who suffer from the com mission of crimes, " Is it a hanging matter ? Can rou not reduce it below forty shillings ?" The Oth iers of the Old Bailey stated in their testimony, that 3 number of Bills found by the Grand Jury are not rosecuted on account the repugnance of those rho ought to tie the prosecutors, to the idea of els e .nge:lng the life of a fellow-creature. From an coler class of individuals—the Traders of London d Wettnii;:ster—the Committee received the most Ical.satisractory information. I most say , i• : lortant and satisfactory, not only as :Host ra ni,.. . : Vliet'S t he present object, proceeding as it does who are the near and constant observers of ~c i ; c ::mstances connected with it, but thatit is most r-rr r 1; and satiifactory as displaying a sound Intel :1!1:1 a feeling of morality in that valuable part community, which, with all my previous respect ~;., own I was not so sanguine as to anticipate.— I„ Lot li, , itate to declare, that in my opinion, the of that description examined before the T anifested as great a degree of good , ;I : 11:::ch conscientious consideration, sincl as huumanity as could be found in an equal num .2: (1 nica taken from any station whatever in so . - Ihev chewed a reluctance, founded on the most . grounds, to prosecute, in consequence, : :1 : , u .ces.nvi severity of the existing punishments, considering their situation, and the extent ;0 •11:cli they are sufferers, from forgery and fraud, is, i.: ins opinion, highly honourable to-their character, • ough their character to' that of the nation.— . 1% ill not go through the evidence of those persons principles and conduct I shall always remem. 1 21 u h the greatest pleasure) but I will shortly de : that given by one or two of them, from which t:,O may judge of the rest. One, a tradesman in th.: City ut London, expressed to the - Committee licl;cf that there was not a single shop from COlll - t Ckaring-cross, which did not suffer from va , , depred•ttioni, to an extent that no man not coi -1 ,;, ith the facts could imagine.. Yet this same r , !sented it to be the unanimous feeling of i e.,. a engaged in trade, that the severity of the tor th,, , ,e depredations should be mid in order that the delinquents might be pu , . acil, and the sufferers be relieved from the oh :,;e, which their humanity at present interposed in way of obtaining justice. Another excellent wit a tradesman in Westanir.ster, who has been.for rent)• years engaged in an extensive cdncern, told the Cmr.Mit:en that no porter had ever been discharged b 1 him for any cause but the commission of theft.--y ine years ago, this gentleman brought a potter to t:;11 for theft, mho was capitally convected ; and be c •:; .re to the Committee, that the pain and anfiety he and his father felt, until it was ascertatned the Royal mercy would he extended to the of were such as to deter them ever after from a similar step, and to induce them to suffer depredation, rather than again incur so melan a risk. Sir, it is not so much to the virtue of nlnlitte conduct, as to its good sense and prusleke, that I wish to call the attention of. tote House The opi -7',.13 which I have quoted are not the opinions cif • ....in:tries and enthusiasts, but the opinions of ra t: ti individuals, pursuing their business in the way .:.ich they think best calculated to ensure success; 2.:1.1 they distinctly tell you, that they believe the best •.:curity which the Legislature could devise for their . :(perty would be the abolition of those sanctions by licch it has hitherto been so ineffectually guarded. Ail the traders who were examined by the Committee declared tlyat they spoke the opinion at least of nine tenths of their acquaintance, respecting the crimes of i',toplifting, stealing in warehouses above the value of forty shillings, and, above all, respecting the crime of forgery. With reference to the crime that I have just mentioned, I am anxious to dwell more particu larly on the evidence of two remarkably intellisent titnesses who have been examined by thi Committee. The first was Mr. Carr, Solicitor to the Board of Ex• rise, a publi c o ffi cer of great experience, and who gave his testimony in a manner that reflected the utmost credit on his understanding. Besides the ex pression of a strong general opinion on the subject, Mr. Carr stated several particular circumstances and vises highly deserving of attention. Prior to the 7 . .-•ir 14d, the forgery of an Excise stamp was pu nishable only by the infliction of a penalty of 1:500.1 At that period it was made felony. Mr. Carr detailed n the Committee a comparative statement of the, cumber of prosecutions and convictions for that of fence before, and the number after it was'constituted tinny. During the twelve years precedin 1806 there had been 21 prosecutions and 19 convictions ; during the twelve years subsequent to 1806, there had been nine prosecutions, and only three convic tions. So much were Juries disinclined to convict since the offence was made capital, that although before that increase in the severity of the law t!ty had convicted in almost every case submitted to them, since its occurrence they had convicted la only one-third of the cases submitted to them. This fact Mr. Carr considers (and justly considers) as decisive with respect to the general principle. The Hove sill perceive that it is not to the diminution i s the number of prosecutiom to which I advert, that Tay he susceptible of various explanations; but it is t the diminution of the number of convictions, aS ''-' , mpared with the number of prosecutions; a cir• mstvace which it must be generally admitted is .4, -" J ' tu table anis , to the increased severity of the law. 11. • fair mentioned to the Committee another into resting and i mportant f act, name l y, t h at i n hi s pro . , intercourse with fraudulent traders, he had \'..a7s found them desirous of heavy penalties, be i'e thA7 belie ve d th at suc h pena l t i es wou ld no t be i : - "ed• They dreaded mode ra te penalties, because hi:iieved that such penalties would be enforced. these facts a still more striking proof exists in the ; 4 j ( r , nce of the other witness to whom I have a11u ,.--7-elndence which, I am p ersua d e d, w ill be heard ' 3 l' the IlOuse with great interest. It is that given by r. Joceph Harmer, the Solicitor in Crown Prosecu ' "Plc at the Old B a il ey , w h o , i n t h e course o f twen ty i t ,t e 'r , ' Practice, h as had professional an d con fid ent i a l el co urse with more than 2,000 persons brought to .1. 1 in that Coort, and wh o m u st the r efo r e be as fa ,.s.vi:ll the cau ses o f cr i me, w i t h t h e h o p es an d • et dclia it•.ca-, with the temptations which al. lure them to the ;ottani= orofence, a punish. ments calculated to deter them, as any man living. And, Sir, I beg to add my conviction to that of this whole Committee, that a witness of 'so much jodg, went and intelligence, or who exhibited such evident marks of a conscientious and humane character, has seldom appeared before any assembly. It is, indeed, difficult for me to imagine the evidence of any wit ness on this interesting subject entitled to greater weight than that -of M r . Harmer. Among other things, Mr. Harmer said—and I r epeat, th a t thi s Gen , tleman's testimony is peculiarly deserving the atten- Aims of Honourable Gentlemen, who call those who think with me on this subject visionaries—opposed to all experience ; since if we are led astray, we are led astray not by the suppositions of a theorist, but by the able and enlightened testimony of a man who has had experience in 2000 capital felonies, having been in confidential intercourse with so many male factors. Mr. Harmer said that he knew many per sons who had suffered considerably from acts of lar ceny and forgery, but who had de:lined prosecution, lest the delinquents, if convicted, should be punished with death ; that he had frequently observed that same disinclination to serve as Jurors, strising from the same cause,.and inducing individuals to bribe the summoning officer to leave them out of his list ; and , he had repeatedly known Juries, influenced by the existence of capital punishments, acquit in minor cases 4 especially in forgeries, where the proof of guilt was irrefragable ; that old and professed thieves who were aware of this feeling on the part tif Ivies, had often told him, with the sagacity and sharpness prompted by a knowledge of their own interest, that they were desirous to' be prosecuted capitally, as af fording them the probable means of escaping with entire impunity. If so, Sir, if our present laws afford security to the enemies of society, they must be Oleg nant with insecurity and danger to the- lives and property of all good members of society. In the continuation of his evidence before the Committee, Mr. Harmer declares it as his decided opinion, for the reasons which he had already stated, that the present numerous enactments for taking away hu man life were inadequate to the repression of crime. To the admirable passage which follows, and which exhibits in a brilliant point of view this Gentle man's sound judgment, humane feeling, and (which is certainly of comparative unimportance) powers of composition, I beg the attention, of the House.— " If I were asked," said Mr. Harmer, dwhat descip- don of punishments would in my opinion be produc tive of benefit ? -I would answer, such as might force the delinquent into a course of discipline totally op posite to his habits. Idleness is assuredly a part of his character, which industry would counteract. Set him to labour. He is probably debauched, and ab stineacrwould be advantageous to both his mind and his body—apply it. He has been accustomed to dis solute companions, separation from whom would es modally ameliorate him. Keep him in solitude. He has hitherto rioted in uncontrolled liberty of action.' 411 propose that he should be subjected to restraint.l and the observance of proper decorum. Were these or similar suggestions attended to, I have no doubt that the number of criminal offenders would soon be considerably reduced"—(Hear, hear, hear.) Mr. Har. met further states, that he has frequently seen Jades' reduce the estimated value of the thing stolen in order, to screen the prisoner from capital punishment—thati .no reluctance appears to exist in the public mind to , see the pnnishment of death inflicted for crimes ac companied with circumstances of atrocity and vio .lence—but that those who suffer death for offences of a less aggravated description, are consoled by the public sympathy ; and that thus the public feeling is excited against the whole code of our criminal law. Sir, all those judicious observations apply to persons whose punishment depends on the value of the pro f pert) , which they have stolen. In those cases, how ever, there are easy means of evading the- law, and especially by undervaluing the value of that pro perty. In cases of forgery, that practice cannot how ever be resorted to. I am sure the House would listen with attention to the whole of the evidence given be fore the Committee with respect to the crime of for gery, for it proceeds from some of the Most eminent bankers and merchants of the City of London; but I will at present conteat myself with a very abridged statement of its substance. Mr. John Smith, the banker, a Member of this House, stated to the Com mittee that he knew an iqstance of a prosecution for forgery having been reliquished on account of the punishment of death, which he had no doubt would have been carried to conviction had the punishment for that crime been of a less severe description. Mr. Barnett, the. banker, also a Member of this House, declared to the Committee his conviction that the , infliction of capital punishment for forgery tended so materially to diminish the number of prosecu-' tions for that offence, that he believed the majo rity of private forgeries passed unpunished. Ma', Edward Forster, amidst other valuable inform*• tion, stated a single occurrence, namely, that in an instance of forgery with which he was acquainted, friend of the prisoner's contrived, by the connivance of the prosecutor, who was averse to conviction, tO seize - the forged check, and to throw it in the fire.— Mr. Forster also said, that he believed half the prir vate forgeries passed unpunished in consequence cif the existence of the capital punishment. Mr. --, a banker, likewise described four remarkable cases ' of this sort ; and declared to the CoMmittee, that he should consider his property to be much more secure were the severity of the present punishment for for gery mitigated.—Mr. Samuel Hoare's evidence was also highly worthy the attention of the House. That Gentleman informed the Committee, that in most cases is which the life of a prisoner was endangered, he observed, that there was great reluctance to pro secute, but in a case of forgery more than in any other ; and that, instead of thinking that the secu rity of property would, be diminished by a Enid irauen of punishMent, he was persuaded it would 6e increased.—Mr. Goldsmith, the Broker to the Bank of England, declared that he knew many. hundred instances, in which the capital punish ment had prevented prosecutions. for forgery.— , Sir, I not fatigue the House by, any further de, tails of this nature. When the Report of the Com mittee coraes to be printed, I am persuaded that the evidence which it contains will be read with no ordi nary interest. I shall now, therefore, close the ob servations with which I have troubled the House, by merely stating the general instructions which I have received from the Committee. The Committee de- '~': tire Ail I twill pit** .the introduction of two dis tinct BWs the one a gal for thikabolition of thirty ken) or perhaps l-athii more, caphal felonies ; the other, a Bill •to consolldato and amend the existing laws respecting forgery:—to bring them all into one Statute, and to make such amendments as may seem expedient. I proceed to give a general idea of the proposed amendments; and here I beg to observe,, that besides the general evidence given before the Committee to which I have already adverted, there are other considerations—considerations of policy, of a very grave nature, which ought to induce the House to consider the amendment of the laws re- specting the crime of forgery as an imperative duty. Parliament has recently adopted' a most important and serious, and in my opinion, a highly-beneficial measure; a measure which I trust ne temptation or occurrence will ever induce it to _repeal. It has pledged itself to return to the ancient standard of our currency—to that intrincically valuable stanchrd, which had so long existel in this country, in corn nzon with the other cZuntrie3 of the civilized world. It has pledged itself to abandon—what I trust will never under any circumstances be re-adopted—a sys tem, which, however it might be excused by the ex traordinary pressure of the time at which it was taken, is acknowledged by every body to be incon sistent with all those principles on which the perma nent wellbeing of society depends. In doing this, nevertheless, we cannot dissemble from ourselves that we are taking a step, which however beneficial on the whole, must be attended with partial danger, with con siderable sacrifices, with serious injury to individuals. Under the agitating circumstances'necessarily conse• quent On so great a charge, it appears to me to be the polity of Parliament to give character and popu larity to the change itself, by removing from the laws which regulate our paper currency the odious imputation of a sanguinary character, which the execution of those laws bas but too frequently war ranted. In my opinion, Parliament ought to render the measure it is about to adopt as acceptable to the Public as it can. This seems to me to be also cape dient for the sake of the Bank of England, which has of late been charged, and perhaps unjustly, with conduct not altogether reconcileable to the principles of justice, or at least of humanity. Sir, it is most desirable that all these things should, if possible, be forgotten. It is most desirable that they should be imputed to the necessities of the times, and l-e dis missed from mens minds. Sincerely do I wish that the Bank of England may continue the inspectors of our domestic circulation; and that they may conti- nue to afford aid to Government, if Government should need their assistance ; and therefore do I also wish, that we may signalize the great change which is about to take place by such alterations in the law as may restore to the Bank, and to all connected with recent events of a financial nature, the charac- ter which has at least been so seriously endangeted. Sir, the amendments in the law proposed by the Corn mittee are founded on this principle. It appears to them, that as long as the small Notes of the Bank or England continue in circulation, forming as they do a great proportion of the currency of'the country, it may be right to place them on the same footing as the metallic currency of the same value. With great pain and reluctance, therefore, the Committee re ,ceremend, that the actual forgers of those Notes shall continue subject to capital punishment. At the same time the Committee suggest that it may be worthy the consideration of Parliament to inquire into the ex pediency of adopting the suggestion of the Commis sioners appointed to examine into the means of pre venting the forgery of Bank Notes, to offer a high re ward for the detection of the forgers of those Notes. There does not appear to me to be any danger in this proposition. No Jury will convict—no Jury ought to convict—on the evidence of informers alone. A verdict of guilty can be pronounced only on the dis covery of the materials and implements necessary for carrying, on the illegitimate manufacture. I repeat, that no Jury will convict on the evidence of an in former, without these corroborating circumstances. It seems to rre therefore, that without danger of perjury, or of false information, destructive of inno cent individuals, offer such a temptation by reward as may eventually lead to the discovery_and lation of those nests of wretches who have sacrificed .4a many human beings to their avarice. Vi'ith respect to the utterer of forged notes, it is proposed by the Com -IMittee to lighten the law. It is proposed to punish the first offence either with transportation or with hard la bonr, at the discretion of the Judge; but to place the offender on the second or third offence on the footing of the common utterer of money, prosecutable cape. tally ; leaving it, however, open to the prosecutor, to prosecute if he shall think fit as for a first offence.— It is not proposed by tie Committee to make any change with respect to the person found in possession of forged notes eexcept it shall be left.to the discretion of the Judge whether to subject him to imprison. mentor to hard labour. These, Sir, are the measures which I am instructed by the Committee to recom mend to the House. I will close my observations by endeavouring to describe what appears to me, from the evidence before the Committee, and from other sources, to be the general opinion of the public on this interesting and important subject. The num ber of the Petitioners whose Petitions are on our table praying for a mitigation of the Criminal Law, exceeds 12,000. We have besides the Petitions of the Corpora. Lions of London, of Norwich, of Portsmouth, &c. Wit have the Petitions of Grand Juries, and of a large piny Lion of the Clergy. But the Petition from the City of London alone, speaking, as it does, the sentiments of the great majority of the metropolis, conveys the opinion and wishes of a much greater number of persons than those I have already mentioned. All the witnesses who have been examined before the Com mittee concur in declaring that the severity. of the law ought to be mitigated, and that such are the sentiments of the majority of those with whom they are acquainted. It is the deliberate opinion of the public at large. It is no popular clamoui, likely to subside with the temporary cause whit " gives it voice. it is the well-grounded persuasion lof that very numerous and highly-respectable class of society, to the soundness of whose sentiments I have endeavoured, however feebly, to do justice.— It is the decided conviction of all, that it is impossi ble to execute the laws as they stand at present on our statute book ; and I am therefore justified in as , Setting, that there can by no possibility be any sub ject to which a wise Legislature ought more speedily or mote intensely to direct itrattention. Sir, I move . that the Report :iie printed.—rtsid el 41 of Ater i Hear! followed tkit reeeh, which, daring its deliver,;, was listened to di the House euith profound attention.) The Report wat'ordered to be printed. BILL FOR THE REVERSAL OF nti ATTAINDER ACAINST TR? LATE Lotto It. rtIiGERALD. A Message from the L t .rds ann o unce d t hei r l or d, ships' assent to several Bills, and also that their Lord ships had passed a Bill 'reversing the attainder ie the late Lord Edward FitzgeraW, to Which they desired the concurrence of the Misuse of Common's. ' • -- Lord CASTLEREAUH, i n r i s i ng to p i opos e t ha t , the House should agree to this measure withoiw A ii& ' lay, expressed the gratification w hich he knew th lusti ions individual in the e x e rc i se of r e g a l auth e>> in this country experienced at exercising the - prilserft gracious prerogative of Sovereignty—( Hear, 'tit). It was highly gratifying to those who were- connec - with that part of the - Empire to which the measure especially referred, to contemplate that tranquil state which rendered the present proposition so advisable: He repeated that it was highly gratifying to the illus trious Representative of tile Sovereign to consult, by this Act, the feelings of one of the most illustrious families of which the Empire could boast ; and td him (Lord Castlereagh) who, in his official character in Iceland, had been the painful witness of the cir cumitatices out of which the proceeding that the pro posed Bill went to overturn arose, it was extremely gratifying to be the humble instrument of proposing I to the HouSe a measure, the adoption of which woulds he trusted, assist in the consummation of thitrftx which every good and honest mind must wish....-the oblivion of all the circumstances in which ti,e neces sii T . for it originatcd--(Hecr, hear, hear). He moved that the Bill he read a first time. Lord W. FITZGERALD said, he did not mean to occupy the attention of the House for many minutes, but be could 1:ot let this opportunity pass without stating how truly grateful he and his family were to his Royal Highuess the Prince Regent, for his gener ous conduct iu originating this measure-i--(Hear, hear). It WAS a truly gracious and princely act— ( firer, hear). After what bad been said by the Nobk Lord, it would ill become him to expatiate further on this subject: But he could assure the House, that the. State had not a mere loyal subject, or the Army a braver Officer, than the individual for whose relief ,and benefit this Bill was immediately intended— (Hear, hear). He was most ti uly sensible of the kind and liberal manner in which this measure Lad been brought forward, and in which it Cad been received, and he thanked the House for the attention which they had paid in the expression of his feelings on this occasion—(gear, how). Sir FRANCIS BURDETT congratulated the House and the country on the introdnetson of the pre. sent Bill, which he characterized as an act, which, al• though one of justice, yet evinced a m ignanirnous feeling on the part of his Royal Highness tilt., Prince Regent, that entitled him to the warmest attachment and gratitude—(Hear, hear). No account could pro• duce greater satisfaction in tilt B art of the kingdom where the objects of the Bill resided, than the meat sure which was now about to be passed--(Hear). Mr. V. FITZGERNLD was anxious, as a Repres sentative of that country, to assure the Honourable Baronet that he had not overrated the espressteas of satisfaction with which the accounts of tnis measure • would be received in Ireland. Whatevei may have • been the circumstances of that unhappy time that gave rise to the measure which this Act was to re verse, it was gratifying to reflect, that the Cirelma stances of the present time enabled the Parliament of the United Kingdom to concur in such' a measure as , this. He was convinced there was no man in the cm , pire, of generous, w arm, and honourable feelings, but must admire the motive that had given rise to tfiis spontaneous stet of magnanimity. The Bill was read a second time, and referred to Private Committee. ~- AMERICAN LOYALISTs. Mr. W. SMITH wished t 6 know whether any steps had this Session been taken for the Reid of American Loyalists:' The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied in the neTative. Mr. W. SMITH said he should bring this question before the House in the next Session. He also noticed that Inoculation for the natural Snlall-Pox \vas spreading over the county of Norfolk, and would prove a dreadful evil if not checked. MR. MALLISOW. Sir FRANCIS BUItDETT tom to make his An. nual Motion far a remuneration for Mr. Ilaullison's invention to save persons from drowning. He entered into a comparison of this Gentleman's invention In point of merit with other inventions for a similar purpos.. ; and moved an Address to the Prince Re• gent, praying that he would be pleased to order Mr. Mallison's invention to he used in the Navy, and in the Revenue service against smugglers: Mr. W. SMITH seconded the motion. He thought 'this invention peculiarly useful in the service for pre venting smuggling. Sir ISAAC COFFIN thought the introduction of cork jackets into the Navy would be the loss of more lives than they were aware of. He commanded a vessel which was cast away on the coast of Labrador, and if he bad had this invention of cork jackets on board, every man would have been drowned, for be. fore them lay a reef of rocks, against which •ther would have all been knocked to atoms. • He fell overboard at Jamaica, and if he had had this jacket he would have been capering without his legs, and had them bitten of by tl:e sharks. Sir GEORGE COCKBURN opposed the motion also. If they had stores of this kind oft board, every man would desert the ship in cases of shipwreckland fire. The most expert swimmers are the first to jump overboard, and generally the first drowned, ou.ao count of the dreadful surf always between the l ubip and the land on a lee shore. 1 . -4 . Sir FRANCIS BURDETT.repliediii . nd. eke mo tion was negative 4. without a ', • REVSNUF. OF GIB RA LTA4I • Mr. HUME rose to move for an account di the Re venue of Gibraltar ; because he could pot find any thing showing, the} this Revenue had ever • been brought to the public account. Oflautiears Acts of. 'Council had been passed, ordering takes, and enqui ries into property in Gibraltar of the most extraor dinary nature. He understood a Deputation was in town to pray relief from Government from these Acts. He had been told that 1%000 a-year WAS • raised in Gibraltar, out of w.lich £lB,OllO was remit- ~':'' "It 1 I PI 6 I f t =II Ell /;