Star. — London, England, 1819-07-02 00:00:00

1 7. e that place, the elective franchise removed from boroughs whose corruptions had been exposed, and from others of limited extent, to large and popnloust towns. He regirded the abuse of thai franchise ,in the same light in which he should view .the abuse of any other constitutional (Unction. The House would not do its duty, if it left power in the. hands of those who.e delinquency had been proved. Thus far would be g) in the improvement of the borough representa tion: but the thorteuing of the dtiratioa of Parlia ment appeared to him to be a measure that would have a saint:eta effect in identifying the ieelings of the constituent and the representative ; it would serve es raise the House in the public estimation, and to Fit an end to that difference which had been so often ' surveil in their conduct at the beginning and at the c lose of a Parliament. The frequent recurrence of elections, which was much dreaded by many persons in that House, he thought would be highly beneficial. He considered the noise and tumult of 4 popular elec tion an excellent ordeal for a candidate to go through laugh from the ministerial side). He knew the r eaning of the laugh from the gentlemen opposite, bet (till he must declare his preference of triennial Parliaments and mud-bespattered condidates, as a fl'.ght Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Canning) had on &Ammer occasion described him. The Right Ho wl:ride Gentleman, perhaps, might not be ignorant o f inch a thing existing ; and if it were recurring fry. isuently, it would not be improper that a Member lould have such a memento of the resentment of his, constituents. ire did Sot consider reform to be that grand panacea - which the Honourable Baronet seemed to think it. Lk knew the people had been taught to heliesp that reform comprised all that was worth raining ; that it would make, provisions cheap, and reduce the expense of law proceedings ; in short, that is would enable us, as Fonescue said, " to wear woollen clothes, and drink no wo.ter".4 : -(A laugh). 111 certainly did not anticipate such entisocmences from t i: t li . rentary reform ; but at the santetinie he be it would have the good effect or gating the !maple *hat in his opinion (and he was sorry to sax st) they did not at present possess--reliance on their rulers. He had addressed the House in this early stage of the debate, because there was much in the Honourable Baronet's speech that he approved of, and because he thought the best way of attaining the object in view was to unite the friends of reform. He knew he had prescribed to himself a difficult task, which, nevertheless, he hoped he had executed in an intelligible manner s —namely, to draw between lumself and radical reformers a wider distinction than abaci between any oilier two classes of politicians. Whatever reception the pre;ent proposition might meet with, he must consider that House the true re presentative of the people, and the third branch of the Legislature; and he sheUld be sorry if, in the harry and heat of debate, he had uttered any remark derogatory from the respect which he should ever, entertain for that House. Mr. GRENFELL said he did not often wish to trouble the House with any of his sentiments, and that he did not now mean to follow the Honourable Baronet through his whole speech ; trot as the subject was one which, especially of late years. had.become of much importance, and as he had often voted upon it and hitherto had always given a silent vote upon it, be hoped he would be excused for declaring his dpi. nionupon it. The subject had already been repeatedly so amply and ably discussed in the House and in va. aloes publications, that he did not expect to be able iv say any thing new upon it, or to put the argon meets in a better light than they had hitherto beena hut the Honourable Gentleman observed that he was one of those who saw in the practical effects of earl present system of representation much radical good. He must also say that he had no faith in the wisdom of many of those who called themselves advocates for Parliamentary Reform: In this censure he did not by any means wish to include all Oa advocates.' of Reform. Without going out of his way to impute i improper motives (though be did in his conscience believe that improper motives might be truly im puted to them), he could not help saying, that if all that they wished was done, it would only give then) 1 an opportunity of trying their hands on experiments which oaght never to be made, and which would put. to hazard all that was valuable in the Constitution— (Hear, hear.) It was not an opinion hastily adopted which he expressed when he said that our present re presentation was such as gave a greater practical de gree of liberty and security both as to person and property than had ever been attained in any country m the same state of society. But having said this,' he mast be allowed to express some doubt whether in practice any great change in our system would pro duce good. At the same time he must admit our system had some blemishes. Time, which had raised it up, had also brought with it some abuses—(hear.) Bat the only sort of proposition for Reform to which he could listen, was one which should clearly* point out the defect or blemish to be corrected, and plainly spew the remedy intended—(Hear, hear.) —To any such proposition he would be among the most foremost to propose a serious consideration. He had long thought that the influence of the Crown• throughout the country, and especially in this House, was too great, and that it would be an essential ad vantage if it were diminished. The House must re collect the Resolutions passed in 1780 on the motion of Mr. Dunning, afterwards. Lord Ashburton, which set forth that the influence of the Crown had increis- , eel, was increasing, and ought to be diminished. He hngged the House to recoiled what had taken place since the period when these Resolutions were, A r greed to. The National Debt had increased from , 'L 12 0,000,000 to £800,000,000. With this increase there had been a corresponding increase of taxation, and of all the machinery necessary to enforce it. All this gave a corresponding increase to the patronage and influence of the Crown. Therefore if in 1780 the House had thought it necessary to pass the Resells.- !;an which he had mentioned, how much stronger "ns the occasion for diminishing the influence of the, Crown now? But the radical Reforenementst. much ' farther than this ; and there was this Temarkgble in all their plans, that no three of them were ;greed. ipon a plan olgeneral Reform. eAll.dreir plans tog 'sere unintelligible. Entertaining these opinions, he could not but heartily dissentirom the present Mo. :ton, and he could not do it in ibetter way than moving-- , ‘ That the whet-Orders of thellay now read."—(Heer, hear.) Mr. GURNEY (of .Norwich) spoke against . practice of extending the Elective Trawl:tube of it, one being too Grecian, another . Gothic-one too ancient, another too Modern. In short, it was impossible to please such men. They were like the soldier, who, when he was flogged. complained that the drummer struck too high,aben'iltat he struck' ; low--and, lastly. that he seta/ in the middle. )ha the 'whole, he thought ,this ae *Ass, in justice to a coitiplaining country. oosakitt not-refuse to ace*. to this pro7: 10 al, which at least beld . out the hope oll'H Reform. se persons who possessed the elective franchise, and who were but as zeros on the political scale, would be at all events gratified by the pro. ' posed inquiry, si miseris edam spem injeceris cons olere l petest ;—rand he could not sit dawn without observing that the best support of Government Would be a free and equal Administration, as well as the undoubted interest of the community. Mr. WILMOTT conceived that the Honourable aronet had other motives in introducing the motion than hSA been stated, at least it appeared to him that it was co-existent with 'meetings that were held, which he considered of a seditious tendency. It wfs upon occasions such as this' that the people were taught to believe that their distresses arose front a tyrannical administriation, and from what the Ho neurable Baronet had been pleased to style the cor rupt majorities of that House. He would ask the House when they considered the numerous subjects with which the Honourable Baronet had studded his speech, whether it was possiblethat triennial Parlia ments and household suffrage Would remove those grievances, and particularly the delays in Courts of Justice? The Honourable Baronet had referred to those parts of our history, with the view of shewing, that the condition of the lower classes was better than at the present, at times when the poor were , ted little better than beasts, and transferred from 'one master to another. Could the'Honourable Mem ber bring one instance to prove, that at any period *greater portion of liberty had been enjoyed than at the present ? Does he remember the language used towards the populace in theiiign of Richard 11. 'after the death of Wat Tylel;•l:Pilkai /sista, eat kiwi manebitis, non at haagenes i . 'sed alai* viliorest lie understood, that if the mOilkfh 'of the Honourable Toilet should be agreed : to, [ 4iat all the promise. *advantages would be obtained ; but as he did not believe such would be Me effe4, he could not coa tto subscribe - to the declaration. A great part of, the difficulties he.haped would , be removed early in.: the next Session, by a reformation of.thiroor Laws; ' be thought .too, much good might.be effected by an , /encouragement to emigration, not .by sending osd armed .men - to South Amarica,.but hy establishing colonies, which would at the - same time improve ,the .commerce .of the country. .1n any .tational method to relieve the sufferings ll:hepatic, nose would be more ready to co-operate than himself. if he ca ll& me stapreasouable plaii. to accomplish :Parliamentary Reformation,.-he.ohnulditish tirgiveit attentiosu hue `wrung the last twenty gears '.helsadmot met with ly Abet could he adopted 'by a seasmable man. r—Johnson :had saisi-J , .Thus the.hand that rod& -sake a lainebnaight.destroy.a palace." !For ,the • ,rapt - Boraaghs tots! adjacent Hundreds • and lepre7 !cause he did not think EarliaMearATY R 4 b O P tented this system as productive of the worst copse-. !panacea for . the .dif;culties tif 41e country. `quences. He thought it would be much better, in' • Mr..AlOman WOOD ccaptoraclidthat the even, every point of vie w , t o a d opt t h e p l an suggested by rsien of the elective franchise weeld Wei beipeensii the gallant General (Sir Robert Wilson), of disfran- tent with a due regard to ;be rlbes orffie otiginit chising those Boroughs altogether, and transferring electors, as had been erroneously maintained ih thel the elective franchise to some of those large and po- case of the Borough of Barnstaple. He concurred in pulous towns which at present were unrepresented. 'the motion before the House, and said that his Cifm- If the House would pass a law to this effect, he was stituents, who certainly lived in the most enlightened' convinced it would tend to silence all the discontent part of the island, were friends of moderate Reform. and clamour which had been raised against the pre- Mr. WILLIAMS, in supporting the motion, de-i sent system. dared himself favourable to a moderate Reform.! Sir R. WILSONsaid his only objection to the mo- Had the rotten boroughs been abolished, the County tion of the Honou ra bl e B aronet was t h e t i me at w hi c h M em b ers would have const i tuted a ma j or i ty aga i nst it was brought forward. A t so l ate a period. of the Ministers, and the country would not have been bur-, Session many perso ns were a L sent , not expect i ng t h at d ene d w i t h many unnecessary expenses, and we would so important a measure would be now brought for- have escaped all the evils of a corrupt system of Re ward. The Honourable Baronet had stated his rea presentation. son for his delay. He had allowed those whom he Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN was of opinion Re must call the economists to try their strength. But form was become inevitable. He fully agreed in the Honourable Baronet was certainly right in saying opinion that the influer.ce of the Crown had decreased. that they had been defeated. The campaign was He declared himself independent of political or'per-' ended without any success. They had been beaten sonal prejudices ; wherever he saw a measure which on every point—the Lords of the Admiralty—the had the good of the people for its basis, let it come' War Office—the Colonial Department—they had from what quarter it would, it should have his sup ,been repulsed from them all without gaining the least port. Oa the present occasion he had no fault to advantage. They had not been able even to wrest find either with the motion of the Hon. Baronet or a single snuff-box from the Noble Lord. As to the with the time at which it was brought forward. After necessity of Reform, he observed, that when out of the spirit which bad been displayed at the late Gene the 650 Members of the House, the numbers retur- ral Election, when all the professors of wild and' ned by the Crown and the Nobility wer e ded uc t e d, ' c hi mer i ca l chemes were rejected, and only Gentle. the total number that could be considered as really men of moderate principles chosen, he had tioped: i Representatives of the people was only 171. On that at an early period of the Session this question the whole, therefore, he thought the Honourable would have been brought forward. The Honourable. Baronet had shewn the necessity of some Reform, Baronet had waited patiently; the people had waited and that this was a seasonable time for undertaking patiently ; but the Session had expired - , and nothing it. He should not anticipate the objections which had been done. Even in the cases in which gross might be made to the proposal of the Hon. BarOnet, bribery' and corruption had been found too glaring when its details came to be considered. But there to be concealed, and inquiry had been found .nevit were two objections which he would now notice.— able, how had the House set about that inquiry ? One of these was, that ours was a mixed Constitution, Why, with a degree of delicacy and tenderness un of King, Lords, and Commons, and not a Common- equalled on any other subject. Reform had becomi , wealth. But he contended that this was as much as th e genera l w i s h of the people—moderate and yea st° say, that the Constitution, as settled by our antes- senable Reform—not that wild plan which had been tbsk was not that which we ought to adopt. Another imputed to them. He had canvassed many thousands' objection, was, that the present House of Commons of the people, and was well convinced he should never was, upon &b whole, a good representation of the have had the honour of being elected one of their Re people. But be. must say, that those Members put presentatives, had it not been known'his sentiments into the Hou se by Patrons must have distinct views were favourable to moderate Reform. Had he been and interests from toe of the genuine representa- 'one of those wild theorists, he was convinced he tives of the p eo pl e . Toh this cause the people ascribed should not have had ten votes. The Hon. Member the greatest of all evils--file i,rresponsibiliti of Minis- then entered into a review of the present state of thej ters. Another sort of Reforzno4s, were those who re; Representation, and the system of right of voting.' sisted every .proposal for Reform tliaaPse" a' distinct In London, only %be Livery could vote; the Free. plan was brought forward. An Histioitilble Member holders and the House-holders were excluded. In (Mr. Grenfell) was of this class. 'Btirrhas nononra. Lancaster and Liverpool, not one•third of the inha ble Member had never supported any of t• 4. bitants were voters ; and of these more than one is plans which had been brought forward even to this three were non-residents. In these cases only the, Session. This class of Petitioners were like a trttstee, t jongest purse could prevail It would be said_ who being bound to keep an edifice in repair, refused ‘g Would you extend the tug:rage, and let in the to do so , on the complaints of the heir, unless a plan rahl;16: 11 , 1 No, he would not ; 'he would exclude the' was proposed ; and yet when a plan was proposed— rabble, who, as appeared by the evidence before the though by Nash, or Smirke , Wyatt:--though of House, weik to be found in Camelford, in Barnstaple, the most unexceptionable kind, wouldalwaysoppose In Fenryn,_ and. in Grampound.. He would exclude - - too #s4Tughs, these Cornish _ and change the system in that part of the country where the independent county Members were out-voted .in the House by those who nth: rotten 'Viciroimbs, *O4 vrioorisaszing. bought their seats, considared whey had aright to sell, their roue.' He would .havil rose Gentlemen un seated; and i( they came again into the House, he would have them come in as the Representatives of Sheffield, of Manchester, of Leeds, an:( other popu lous places. They would then sit as independent men.; as individuals they were equally honourable :men now as they would be then ; but they woti' i d, as Members of Parliament, be more independent; they would no longer be representatiyes of their own interests and property, but of thd property and in terests of their Constituents. It had been said, if Re-. form was adopted, the Constitution could not stand. Why, then, if such was really the case—if Reform aod Purity in Parliament and the Constitution Wald not stand together, the Constitution was not worth preserving ; and he should say, let it fall. The Honourable Alderman concluded .a speech, which was loudly cheered by all parts . of the House, by giving his support to the motion. Mr. MARTIN (of Galway) did not feel hithself t ether inclined to enter fully into the disciission. . thought it, however, incumbent upon him to offer a fete observations on the subject. The Motion of the I Honourable Baronet, he conceived, did not imniedi ately enter upon Reform. It was only notice of a Motion to that effect s -(Laughter.)—They had been told that evening by an Honourable Meinber, that call his Constituents, consisting of many thousands— if he recollected rightly, twenty thousand—were unanimous in the cause of Reform. He trusted that the Honourable Member would do him (Mr. Martin) the favour to introduce him to his constituents—to the twenty thousand—and he (Mr. Martin) had no doubt but by fair argument he would convince them, that he (Mi. Martin) was right, and that the Honour-' able Member's constituents,—the twenty thousand— talrwrong—(Losed laughter). He recommend hat Genflemen, during th e recess, would attend alteepnblic meetings of their various districts, and argue with the people the question of Parliamentary teferen. It would redound much to their benefit and honour. The Representatives would endear them selves to the People by such condescension and such , anodes of persuasion. Ile,thanked the Hon. Baronet 'Pr Francis Burdett) for once gaining him a hearing et a Meeting in Palace Yard. The Hon. Member ,jok.d . ged himself, that if the Worthy Alderman would ido him a libe favour with his numerous constituents,- namelY, to obtain a hearing, that he would convince the People they-were in erxor. He would thus de- Imamate to the Worthy Alderman, that by adopting in future his plan, he would be returned on the shour tiers of the People !-( Hear, hear, hear.) Mr. HUMS said, in voting-for moderate Reform, he was confident he spoke the sentiments of his Con otituents. *41%6 measure was likely to be followed ,by something Ae,cisive in the nett Session, he would support it. . Mr. PRICE was for reform, lint would not go the length of this elan, which -was-in. itself so visionary.) I.Thh Mr. Pitt himself advocated; but the plan he pit ¶to - buy qp some .of the boroug hs _ and e nunther AA country members. Perhaps well to give to the forty-shilling freehol double vote. egTER 6100FtE .eaid he lad always voted Reform, rood he lisiold Paw to xia the same Ado. It was an act necessary for the preservation of the very Constitution and the tranquillity cf the bh. tion, and under tbtst feeling he felt obliged to the Honourable Baronet for bringing it forward. - This . opinion was supported by high authorities, many of whom were dead, but 40121 C of them were living. He was not a little surprized at the vote which the Honourable Member (Mr. Grenfell) had given, after tlielitie of argument he had adopted, which would seem to go the other way. As things now stood, the Ministers,. so far from being under the controul cf the Constitution, controuled it. Every step was now taking to "crush public opinion,. and the late war against Revolutionary France, had for its object to put a stop to this question. He then concluded, from the fate of the Foreign Enlistment Bell in the House, by conjuring them to be cautious of their liberties, and to guard against the example of Spain under Charles V. who destroyed the liberties of Spain by filling her Senate with his officers. Mr. TENNYSON wished that the rights of which Boroughs convicted of corruption were to be de prived, should be extended to large towns. He did not approve of extending them to the adjoining hun dreds of these boroughs, as that would be giving the electors a double voice, as they before bad one in the A , return of the county Members. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, he should notbeun . dersood as pledging himself to the plan of the Hon. Baronet in the vote which he was to give in support of Reform. lie would go with him the length of saying, that ;he Boroughs, where notorious corrup tion had been proved, should be disfranchised. He would also accede to any proposition for limiting the duration of Parliaments to three years; but could act consent to a general enquiry, which would seem to throw a slur upon our Legislature, and be a signal of alarm to the people of the country who were not at all disposed for a change. It would also have the effect of rendering nugatory any particular plan of Reform. The `Honourable Baronet had said that there was no danger from Universal Suffrage, for he did not know where the suffrages were to be found ; but he would only refer the Honourable Ba- ronet to those persons, who, last year, sent him down to this House with the proposition for Annual Parlia- ments and Universal Suffrage*-(Hear ! Question !) Mr. HUTCHINSON strongly supported the Mo tion. Abuses ought to be reformed. According to the present state of the representation, the people were not faitly dealt with. The Honourable 'Mem ber wished to see an unbought representation. He had lived in other times—he had lived to see a Par liament bought and sold—he had lived to see Ireland destroyed by corrupt majorities--he had lived to see her liberties overthrown by her corrupt representa tives (Hear, hear.) He had lived long enough to have seen that there was no fair representation of the people. No man was more convinced than he was of the blessings derivable from our excellent Consti tution, as formed of King, Lords, and Commons— there was nothing like this admirable Constitution under the sun; but then it must be repaired, suppor ted, and protected by a Parliamentary reform, which would produce a reform of all abuse. He differed widely from the Noble Lord who had just sat down. Mr. BYNG did not object to' the question of Ile [ kecause it was proposed by the Honourable Ba ronet. He very mush lissentessind .craree which the Ilonourable Baronet had unifprmly taken in at. tempting the reform of abuses. 'He very much la mented the separation of the Honourable Baronet from the Aristocracy and Gentlemen of the Country, by whom only a Parlidnientary Reform could be achieved !—(Hear, hear). Sir FRANCIS BURDETT spoke for a short time in reply. A Noble Lord, he said, had opposed his motion for a very extraordinary reason—that of his supposing that he (Sir Francis Burdett) wanted to carry his plan of Reform to an extent of which be-could not approve. The fact was, that he did not propose any specific plan ; and he wished the Noble Lord would point out the defects which he supposed existed in the propositions he had offered.— These 'propositions Went very short of what he had offered last-year; and he was confident that they were calculated to form the ground-work of a goqd system of Reform. He declared himself hostile to all modes of Reform that had no other object in view except that of disfranchising and punishing the Elec tors of some particular Borough, because they had suffered themselves to be bribed and corrupted.— Whereas it was notorious to the whole world, that most other Boroughs were equally corrupt with those that were proposed to be so disfranchised; so that nothing more was done than punishing some guilty persons, and suffering others equally guilty to escape. With what colour of justice could the House inflict this punishment on a particular Borough, when it was well known that the sitting Member for that Borough had been guilty of bribery ! Whatever might become of this motion, he would' say, that that Reform was the best, which the greatest number of honest Reformers would contribute to support ; and without an effectual plan of Reform, the evils that now oppressed this country would never be re moved. The question was now loudly called for, ancl . the House divided— Ayes, 58—Noes, 155—Majority, 95. DISSZNiERS' MARRIAGE BILL. On,the question that the Dissenters Marriage Bill be .committed, Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that if it was only intended to fill up the blanks, he would not object to going into the Committee; but if the Bill was to he pass?d to its completion, he should feel disposed to follow a different course. The measure was of great importance, and had been introduced at so late a pe riod, that he wished its further consideration should be postponed to the next Session. Mr. W. SMITH explained anew the nature v of his Bill. He had not intended merely to fill up the blanks in the Committee, but to forward the mea sure. He should, however, adopt the suggestion the Noble Lord, and waive the Bill for the presen., with the view of renewing it next Session. After a few remarks from Dr. PHILLIMORE and Sir .J. MACKINTOSH, the Bill was ordered to be commit ted this day three weeks. On. the motion of Kr. BROUGHAM, the Marc Aber" BiU was read a third rime ; and after a few words from bir. Could barn, Mr. Barham, Mr. Wilberforce, and Mr. W. fornitla, was ordered to the Lords. kir. WILBERFORCE - moved for Copies tor Extracts of such Accounts as bad been received from the West-India Colonies since lee 7, shewing the Iserease and decrease of Slaves, and of the free populatlon.—Ordered. Adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'Clock. eat vor ruses Isoiwatigsa.unosamy tO4 amens he had .assignedrheahunld protest.apinst. the b t notion, and :conclude in:rhelanguage of W.For,--. do- '44 That,thsy isad:higliar.dutias ,to perform than the b 9! .acre wishes of theirConstitneata, they ,had to guard 11 0 the lams:ad:not' in, invade them.and 'to consider Abu. tkerrights2af thepeopleivereillinited as welLarthose the of tbadioseeraisn." ,He tfrit helms justified in Ivor voting for the motionlatimedioawrabie &mast, he-, 4 4 1 , = f' . i I. , i i i i 1 . II i I 1 , . . 1 " ;• , , , r • ; , I 'r, f I , , .I ',. . I • 1 I , 1 , . r ~••• 1 i , 1 :• 1 , ' , , F; • 1 ,1 , It' I I • , . . • H i‘• • • • • ljacruse it would ers a Mr.