Star. — London, England, 1819-03-03 00:00:00

-0• 1 • z ; 4,4 J . f l ~ `(QL I ~.e i~ r k I . ;!• 1 .1 ~~. ~~ 1. 1 under', expressed himself with no small partiality in favour of his conduct, which clearly shelved his sense of it. In regard to the affair of Talnair, it may per haps, oninquiry, be found fully justifiable. In the fun report of the Govemor•General, that Officer ex pressed himself fully satisfied, and even spoke with unqualified approbation of the conduct of General Hislop.. Under these circumstances, and when they consideresl the degree of estimation in which the CoMmander in Chief appeared to hold him, he thought the House should pause ere it came to a vets decisively, reflecting on the Officer in question; and also the situation in which such a proceeding must naturally place the Commander in Chief in India, and that, if military inquiry were to take placron his part, it should be by a Coutt-Martial.-- Upon the whole, his Grace thought with his Noble Friend, it *mild be best to pass the Vote of Appro bation-in the usual way, leaving the conduct of Ge neral Hislop, as to the transaction alluded to, a mut- ter of distinct or subsequent consideration. The Marquis ofLANSDOWNE expressed himself satisfied as to the principle laid down by the Noble, Duke ;'and was inclined to introduce his proposition on the subject as a distinct consideration. The question was then put, when the Thanks to the Marquis of Hastings, as well as to the Subordi nate Officers and the Army under his command, were all voted, nern. 44. On the motion of the Marquis of LANSDOWNE, their Lordships. then resolved, that the House ex pressed no opinion with respect to the Execution of the:Killedar of Talnair (of the particulars of which transaction the House. was not in possession of satis factory information) in the Vote of Thanks given to Lieutenant-General Hislop.—Adjourned. % HOUSE OF COMMONS. A Message was sent to the House of Peers to state that Mr. A. Beam° and Mr. T. SUM had obtained leave of the Com mons to attend and give evidence before their Lordships. COAL DUTY. Mr..LITTLETON presented a Petition from the nanufactiirers of the Town of Wolverhampton, against the Equalization of the Duty upon Coals.— Vihcn it•was considered to what a proportion Coals entered into all our'manufactures, the importance of the object of the Petitioners would be manifest. Were a tax of one shillirig per ton to be laid upon coals, it would create a difference of ISs. sa. a ton on iron. The Honourable Member for Bristol had, on a former occasion, thrown a doubt on the exist ence of extreme poverty and distress among the ma nufacturers. It was true that the smelters of iron vice in a state of prosperity, but the manufacturing labourers themselves suffered the greatest distress. They worked twelve and fourteen hours a day for the trifling wages of nine shillings a week, a sum to t-ally inadequate to the support of their families. Mr. PROTHEROE contended that the distress which the Honourable Member described, arose in a great measure from the high price of coals, in con sequence of the exportation of that article. Sir It. WILSON conceived, that as the duty now levied was for the general behefit, it ought to be ex tended to every part cf the community. Sir J. GRAHAM said, that he should not consent to an equalization of the Coal Duties. Mr. LITTLETON referred to what had taken place in 1785, when Mr. Pitt had proposed a general tax upon Coals. A few days after, he had 4 tven up his own plan, on the ground that if manufacturers were made liable to the Tax, so many modifications and regulations would be neciisary as to render the whole impracticable. The distress in the coal dis tricts had risen much higher than seemed to be eene rally known. In 1816 almost all thi workers of coal mines in the County which he had the honour to re present, though persons of the greatest respectability, Lad been reduced to-the necessity of throwing their leases upon the hands of their landlords, who had been obliged to carry oa,the works at a considerable bss. The number cf poor thus cast upon the pa rishes had been immense, and it was only by the mu nificence of a Noble Peer residing in that part of the country (Lord Dudley) that employment had been procured for those individuals, and that county had exhibited an example of order and loyalty displayed by no other. Sir.ROBERT WILSON complained that the poor of the Borough of Southwark had to pay a duty of nine .billings and ten pence upon coals, whilst inland districts paid no sitch rate. Mr. Alderman WALTMAN' assured the House that the feeling of the Gentlemen who had assembled to petition against the Coal Duty, was not to solicit its extension to any other class , of their fellow-sub jects, but to be relieved altogether from the Tax. They had to pay a duty of 9s. 10d. besides all the expenses of bringing the Coals to London, and mea suring them, and all those charges fell on the poor consumer as well as the rich. the object of the Pe titioners had been to obtain the repeal of the Tat al together; but if his Majesty's Government were of ()onion that it could not be I.7,iven'irp, then,•indeed, they would desire that it might be equalized. It was strange that Gentlemen who had Coals for nothing shOutd feel themselves so much oppressed, whilst in c City of London, notwithstanding so many addi tional expenses, many manufactories flourished to a • ;teat extent. Yet in that City and the neighbour ing villages, the price of-Coals teas so high that the poor could not procure them, and were supplied by charitable institutions. The City of London and its environs took much from the proprietors and workers of coal-mines, and indeed were compelled to take • from therm But if it Were true, as it had been re ported; that-Coal was to be foUnd at 13Iackheath, would those Gentlemen be very willing to give np their London customers, and allow them to work out their own supply ? With respect to manufactures, many were established in the vicinity of London. On the banks of the river Wandle, which flowed within few miles of the Capital, they would be found to "lost in any other part of the ished that when Gentlemen o Parliament, they should he mind as to what it was they lot to have been the case with the Coal Duties; for they did • whether they wished for - their equalization. He the question should come London would find no its pretensions. All ale advantages of the ms nufacturd'Orere o&stS side. -fle then contended that the duties on la-borne Ccials were equal all over the kinitilum.. fie asked, whs tier i duty of 6s. was not'lincrupop in the port of London, to be applied to the on of churches? He should protest against any a teration in the exist ing duties. There was a gent *in* fixed in the Thames, above Staines. If these. Gentlemen would remove it as low as Blackfriars-bridge, they woad aras cheap for Co*. 'is Inland COunties—(Hoer , and Laughter.) Mr. LITTLETON sittonglrobjected to the equa lization of the Coal buty. He begged to know whe ther it was the intention of hit Majesty's Ministers to make this a l imiestion of their - own, and to lay a new tax upon those parts of the kingdom which had been hitherto exempted from its operation ? He wished to know this, because if his side of the question had only to contend with the City of London, he should I then have no great apprehensions of the result. Mr. LUSHINGTON replied, that as far as he was acquainted with the subject, it was not the intention of Government to propose any alteration in the Coal Duty. Mr. CANNING deprecated the endless revivals of such discussions, whenever a Petition was presented. They were not likely to bring the question' to any satisfactory issue, and their only effect was to delay the course of the regular business of the House. He should have no objection to allow the Petition to he on the table. _ _ _ Mr, BENNET represented the expectation of find ing foal at Blackheath as an idle rumour. Mr. LITI'LETON would tell the Right Hoe. Crendeman below him (Mr. Canning) a more efficient mode of putting an end to those discussions of which he so strongly deprecated the revival. Let him 'ask his Right on. Colleague, the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, to come down to the House and declare at once that it was not the inteation ' of Government to interfere on the subject.--(Hear, !term) The Petition was then: read, and laid on the table. , a few miles or sne t;apitai, be as numerous as almost i kingdom—(llenr , I:ear !) Colonel WOOD wished • made any application to Par by making up their mini wanted. This seemed not tc *Oft Petitioners against the CI 4 " - fr k it Tit piatively know wl • 'P"I or merely , ' Sled, however, that when t to be debated. the City of r ou nd 09 which• to establia d i t INSOLVENT DZISTCRS . ACT. Mr. Alder;anTHOßP presented a Petition from the Ward of Aldgate, against the renewalof the In solvent Debtors Act.—L•iid on the table. • iqr. WAITHMAN held sit Petition, numerously signed by the Merchants, M.aurfacturers, and Inha bitants of the town of Wrexham, in Denbighshire. It prayed that no measures might be adoptcd for the continuation of . the Insolvent Debtors' Act, an Act which is represented as destructive of all commercial security and ccafidence, and which, by subjecting important matters to the decision of only one man, deprived the subjects of the realm of their constitu. tional right to -a Trial by Jury? The Petition had come into his hands, not out of any disrespect to the Honourable Gentleman who represented the County, for whom the Petitioners entertained the highest ve neration, but, as they stated in their private letter, as a personal compliment to himself (Mr. Waithman) from the place of his nativity. He concurred in the sentiments of the Petition, and rejoiced to find that his fellow-citizens had not lost view of those consti tutional pi inciples, for the support of which their an cestors had so gloriously struggled.—The Petition was then read, laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. DANK DISCOUNTS. Mr. GLADSTON, seeing an Honourable Director of the Bank (51r. Mannino in his place, wished to ask him whether or not thereon; any foundation fiuc the report, that the Bank had limited their discounts of late, and that this had taken place in conequence of the appointment of the Bank Committee? Mr. MANNING had no hesitation whatever in stating, that there had not bean the least change in the issues of the Bank; in consequence of the ap pointment of the Committee of Secrecy. Instead of any diminution having taken place in the discounts, there had rather been an increase to the extent of , 200,000. These facts wo ild he completely esti.' Wished, whenever the Committee would make their Report. There was not the slightest intention on the part of the Bank to curtail the accommodations %%- . ----- lila it was in the habit of granting. He understood that an account had yesterday been moved for, of the amount of Bank-notes in circulation since the 25th of January last. When produced, it would prove that he was correct in stating that the amount of Bank notes - now in circulation was £200,000 higher than in last December. la osV 4. Par 1/Va, 0101 !R, 1 0 1114111 , 11 . • 4 * Ile hOweill# te d. s`Ttr. ALE- par • * LOrdCA REAOlfrose loud cheer •dawith which the clostoffhe hen's aildresshad, &needed, had aide Lordship moved, that what had now been said by Mr. Speaker, im re primand to Ilifr.Otady, Watered upon the Journals of the ilduse.—Agreed to ukinimously. WASIIMPUONS OF OOMMITTIM Mr. WYNNE had understood last niet that it was the intentpn of the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Castlereagh) to subdivide the Committee which he had obtained into Sub-Committees, to each of which a particular branch of the great inquiry on which he had embarked, the House would be effected. This was contrary to the riles and practice oQarliameut for at least one hundred years, and he net* wished to know whether the Noble Lord intended'to move that such power be granted to his Committee? Lord CASTLEREAGH in reply, said, that he Lad no such intention, and that the Members of the Com mittee would make the best arrangement amongst themselves to examine the information which had' been or should be collected. • Mr.WYNNE wished to inquire from the Chair, Whether such proceedings could be carried on, and whether Committees were to be allowed to subdivide themselves into Sub-Committees. He contended that it could not be done, without the special consent of the House. He had looked over the Journals, and found that in 1610, such a power had been de clared to reside in Grand Committees only. In 101, and 107, several instances had occurred, in which that power had been granted by the House upon very' ' ' particular grounds being shewn. But since that period, no other instance whatever had taken place. Regarding such a practice as of a most dangerous tendency, if such a motion was to be made, he trusted that a day would be fixed for its consideration, in order that he might take the sense of the House upon it. ' The SPEAKER said, if the appeal of the Honour able Member was intended for oim, he had no doubt in stating, that when a subject was delegated to a Committee, it m as delegated entire to every Member of which that Committee was composed. The House limited the numbers of the Committee for that purpose. ROMAN CATHOLICA. Sir JOHN NEWPORT held a Petition from the otesunt Inhabitants of the City of Waterford. It h.id received their signatures without any solicita tion, but from the impulse of their free-will, and prayed that those restrictive laws which had been imposed in former times on their Catholic brethren, be now done away with the necessity in which they originated. It considered the effect of those laws as degrading and'oppressive. If such were the senti. menu of Protestants on that subject, what must be those of the Catholics themselves ?—(Hear, hear), He presented this Petition with real satisfaction, for he presented it as an earnest of that reconciliation which he trusted would shortly unite all classes of his Majesty's subjects in indissoluble bonds. A MEMBER, well acquainted with the City of Waterford, added his testimony to the universal sense of its inhabitants in favour of the present Peti tion. Many who had formerly opposed the claims of the Catholics had now come forward to support them, and the Petition had been signed by at least ninety nine out of every hundred.—The Petition was then read, ordera to lie on the table, and to be printed. DISCHARGS OF ILIA. °JUDY. Sir ROBERT WILSON moved the Order of the Day for bringing up Mr. Grady to the Bar, in order to be discharged.--Agreed to. The Order of the Day having been read, and Mr. Grady introduced, the SPEAnR addressed him in the following manner : “ Thomas Grady, you have been sulky of writing and lead ing a letter, the contents of which were allies breach of the privileges of this House, smiler the tag Waco yen Uwe been committed to his blajesty's jell if Ilawiime. Now Petition praying for your release has been sel!eined ) and the terse iin -which that Petition is tooveyed. ft proses, and the - was farther from relieve me from a which ion a on the nature Howe Is at • and the ietopie, — tt orth. mod appropriating to each its different sgere cf eiluatiou, Is contrary to the acknowledged usseeeeei practice of Parliament. The delegation of sale to examine and rep o 4t upon any paree'e; rl i a r je e t r itt, is the privilege of the H ouse alone; bes"—i. the present instance, It is attempted to , be asele4 by the Noble Lord, or at least the choice of westisation is left to the ar rangement o f the Conte, u . tee itself, whereas Parliament had heretofore, eis t peculiar jealousy and precision, specifically del e t e such a power to Committees, and refused to ats:re ledge or receive their reports whenever they 'Ne m ceeded the bounds specially prescribed to the we e of the investigation confided to their laboers. Noble Lord's Motion is so rr.ultiferiout in its no w% and embraced so many distinct and stearategro ssa of inquiry, that it is in vain to expect any sauseactes result from the investigation he last night prep 'lt may, perhaps, reach the state of the gnole f, a I never can comprise the state and condition of el 3 ferent classes of offenders, much less st:g re . 'sires or legislative enactments, to promote e. formation of criminals, the correction of we e , s. bits and their 'probable return.to society is free object of all this inquiry. The labours of ei.'se. oruttee to inquire into the state and descriptice xaols, and the "best method of providing for the formatioe as wilt as the safe custody of er ee E ee (foi so the Noble Lord's motion ran) could nevere e brace the case of those confined under seiszeste death, but referred to those whose punishment tee listed principally or altogether in impriconmere thus the great cause tithe amendment of the . semi. nal law of England was to skulk into the notice( the Legislature incidentally, under favour of anecti. -vocal word or indefinite phrase. How fee the doe his motion, and that of which I have given nett, differ? Beth are founded upon the admission tea inquiry is become necessary : and' the Miele herd professes he is desirous to rende r hi s motional erre sive as my own so as ewes to embrace seceedery nishments. There are, nevertheless, sufficient seeeze of distinction in these different motions as to their cie jects, which I shall be enabled to prove are ciistinrer different; and to prove that I am not dispesed to fee low a course of proceeding most eonven'ent:onie object and purposes. I shall refer to the premiere on the Journals of the House, by which it Wlll at. pear, that several references of a similarly extree nature, have been made to Committles in case like the present. In the year 1750, a remarkable instance occurred of similarly- extensive delegation of powe to a Committee of that day, which was expressly ap pqinted to examine the state of the laws relating to felony, and to report to the House oa the expe diency of repealing the said laws. Would any one contend, that a delegation of such exten sive power was, as the Noble Lord hinted ha night in speaking of my motion, an attack en the jurisprudence of the land, or that the motion had ori ginated or been supported by men deficient in legis lative or political knowledge ? The names of Paean, Pitt, afterwards Lord Chatham; Grant, Dudley, Ry der, and others, eqiedly well known for the sound ness of their principles and their legal knowledge, were amongst the supporters of a motion ler a Com mittee with these extraordinary powers. A precedent which had been thus established by men wheseta lents found no parallel in an age se defective in se natorial ability ; ought not to be considered destimte of authority. The Committee so appointed was vie played for two Sessions' in the inquiry, and Frith reported that it was expedient to change, in sever a l instances, the punishment of death for others named, in their Report, which; it was their opinion, might be substituted in their stead with benefietuthe public. This was the first Committee which had stated the dangerous and baneful consequences of the srstem of the Poor Laws, and the Laws of Parish Settlements, with the litigation arising from these sources; it was even then known that pauperism and crime, 3$ in our own days, walked side by side, and acquired strength reciprocally from each other. The Com mittee particularly alluded to the neglected educa tion of the poor at that door, as productive of the most alarming increase of crime. —(Hear, hear.) — A BM was brought in pursuant to this recommenda tion, on the part of the Committee. Into the history of its failure and rejection I shall not go further than to state it was not opposed by Lord Hardwicke, or any of the great Legal Authorities of that day. A smiler extensive delegation of these powers had been per mitted by the House in the year 1770, When the names of Meredith, Fox, Sir George Saville, and others of the first information and talent in the Hone appeared on that Committee. The question referred to them was equally extensive as that proposed to the former, and the labours of the Committee though confined to only one branch of the investigatica now proposed by the Noble Lord, nevertheless it lasted two Sessions, and ended in a recommendation to abo lish eight different descriptions of capital pncisi ment. The Bill founded on this resolution was also lost in the House of Lords, where, it was some gra tification to think, it was not opposed by either of those illustrious names, Lords Hardwicke or Camden. I might standeen thesei precedents against what has been last night urged by the Noble Lord, or ern ripen the proof I have afforded, that the question, es ' subdivided l Y him for the consideration of pets of a Committee similarly subdivided, is contrary to the usage of Parliament; but the difference between the high political standing and official station of that No bleman gives him decisive advantages as to the im perative weight of authority, and renders it neces sary I should make ou t m y case f or a Committee upon stronger and more indisputable grounds — The Noble Lord last night, it is true, stated, tha:ee evil existed, but did not attempt to point out any Fee bability of finding out by the intervention of des Committee, a remedy for the evil so admitted ' 0 exist. He then overlooked, or, at least, did rot think it necessary to point out specifically the defects ex: isting in the system, so as to chalk out a line of ee• ing for the Committee. Two things are necessanlj expected to be pointed out to the House, in order to induce it to enter into au inquiry of this laborious ture—the existence of the evil, and the probable heft of a remedy, since I contend the Noble Lord has at made out a Parliamentary ground for the inquiry proposes. I approach the hallowed institutloes e. our ancestors with more circumspection and re lance, and, therefore, feel myself bound to make , :t 3 a most satisfactore elm in 'nerve of the app licant:4 'I stow make to it, and shevethere exists a strong pr`'' ititbilitY of the diminution of Oat tvil, which all good _ .......,.. ..., ..., ..........wawwwg impossible, at least likely to a ikas . Pendia is onward. sii r du" inset which it is- outlive the duration of any Parliament. To obviate mass and tile 101.8112.1 "R i rante wank trop 0" that " thh llli this Mconveniener, the Noble Lord, amongst Other tardier from year Metric* &sato (mods amfrandllame, ere me from a duo, virlilel% amoldealag Um ma miltetalim _..admissions acid concess ions , states, that it is his in- ch To. kid, would 4ava lieso4rafel damka4 illiet l iOn •t 9 stmatteat t he labour thus imposed upon ha nature of lour Callacto . L add iti tlial .tzentntt liii tOyklibs thi Cointnittee itself into um is at all times privilege% as the d =4lllll rits.,ATaiie to toe aeconcigtotmd peopl it memures lb !sivaristr sli tka mach mi. 441 7 toblectict4 Om*, that this•PPLEticc cat. mil nectogst is lour hark% ir sitidid. vi i af atodiricliag IC Imo we or throe parts ASIENDMED;T OF THE CRINIINAL LAWS. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH.—" Mr. Speaker, , the question, in reference to which I had the honour to give a notice early in the Session, relative to the ' Amendment of so much of the Criminal Law as re . latcs to Capital Punishments, I shall trouble the House with but little preliminary matter, the subject ' itself being of that importance, and the admision of the Noble Lord himself last night having established beyond controversy the absolute necessity of a revi sion and amendment of the Penal Code. It, however, will be necessary for me to adduce something in the shapc"of precedent as to the proceedings of the House in former cases of a reference of bimilar subjects to Committees of the House. The first to which I shall allude is that in 1717, which appears on the face of our Journals. wherein a similar power a as delegated .tcea Committee of that day, to inquire into the state of the Criminal Law. And here I beg leave t0.0b..,1 serve, I should have immediately stated the ground upon which the motion I am about to make shoul have recommended i self to the peculiar notice of the House, buplisr the admissions and concessions which last night were made relative to this subject by the Noble Lord. Those admissions and concessions had to a considerable extent, narrowed the grounds of diikrence between his motion and that of the Noble Lord, and so far simplified the question. Unclei these circumstances, had it been merely a queitiod between the Noble Lord and myself, how far thq nainuto arrangement of the different subjects of in:, quiry were likely to effect the grand obj ec t, the dis cussion would have been attended with little diffi= culty, as the several topics would probably have been discussed in the abstract ; but as those interests most weighty and important in the eye of the Lawyer, Philosopher, Statesman, and Citizen of a free State, are intimately concerned, it will be necessary that I should enter into the investigation with a minute re ference to the existing law, and advert generally to the public feeling, as well as that of even constituted Authorities on the subject. The question now before the House is, which of the two modes proposed was likely to effect the object of mitigating the severity of penal infliction, and insuring to the Public that specie; cf efficient protection for person and property which was the first object of all legislative provisions?' This question must be ultimately decided by the. mode in which the subject to be discussed was refer red to the consideration of the Committee. It is not at all necessary, after what the Noble Lord (Castle. reagh) has stated to ti e House, that I s ho u ld ma k e out a case to warrant this inquiry into the state of the Criminal Law; not that I should for a moment take it for granted that the coincidence of any two Members, though of opposite parties in that House, should be taken to decide a question of this impor tance ; but the decision of the House last night has no doubt settled that preliminary part of the question. The inquiry being admitted by the Noble Lord to 'be most expedient, it remains to be ascertained how far that proposed by the Noble Lord may produce any practical benefit ? To this description of dele. gated power of inquiry I have two objections, the first of which being that of the physical impossibility of carrying such an inquiry into effect, might reason ably 'prechide the necessity of stating the second.— An Honourable Friend of mine, . well known for his real is the case, last night stated, that it would be t.supossibleloravy Gommittee to make a sati s f actory iMort -on th e 0444 of the condition of our gaols within . a lesp : space than the duration of a septennial Pa:lament.; and that the inve s ti gat i on i n t h e case of prisoners i 4 Are* gaOls alone haol taken up the time of a most assiduous and industrious Committee for a whole Session. Fence ,it pust be obvious to the, commonest capacity, that an investigation' into the state of gaols generally, punishments by transporta deo and on board the bulks, with their several ad+ juncts, must be an inquiry of sq extensive a nature as to be, if not absolutely impossible, at least likely to outlive the duration of any Parliament. To obviate Nr • Lord, amongst Other it is I'..