Star. — London, England, 1819-05-15 00:00:00

""-~ .-r ~ ' ~ l' of -"; PAWAiktEATTAiy PROCUDINGS. • • HOT) Z OF LORD(A UAT 14 t I were further heard touching Ibresinte Arlo Cads.= e e. Mauk."-4he Reply, which dare min* to he . I peetponaLtill Friday neat. •Ir-iwilfiefspiedsliVithen adjourned for some tire during • 1114)1( Ott- restiminspf the House, a considerable number of I Co grad local Milo were received from the Commons, pre ell by Messrs. ekififfipavuty, Laminae, Wat Knoutaatte, and other Membui, and read the tint time. The Gloutestir Gas Light, the Revenue Ments, and the Scats Obsolete Laws Bills, were also brought up ; the first men. tientitilay Mr. Wats; the two last by Mr. WORTLKT. These i Iffs'itere severally read the first time. "'Da Mike of NORTHUMBERLAND presented a Petition from the Psltir,h of St. Martin's in the' Fields, against the conti nuance of the resolvent Debtors Act. ° tord bYNEVOR presented a Petition-from the Deanery of /gallery, in the Bounty of Carmarthen, against the Roman Co il/411c Claims ; and another, from certain Parishes in Eadnox shire, to a sihdier effect. ' Viscount MELVILLE presented a Petition from the Town and neighbourhood'of Stirling. against the Catholic Claims. The LORD CHANCELLOR stated, that as the House stood gummoned for Monday next with regard to the Catholic Ques tion, which, if it should conie on, a debate of great length would probably ensue, it would be very inconvenient to hear Appeals pn that day. Ile should therefore, with leave of their Lord ships, postpone the hearing of Causes until next. Wednesday. On the suggestion of the Earl of Stiereitsricay, the further consideration of the Report of the Chimney Sweepers Regula tion Bill was postponed till Tuesday next. • The numerous private or local Bills before the House being respectively forwarded, the House adjourned till Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The further consideration of the Reports of the Bankrupt Laws' Amendment Bill and the Bankrupt Regulation Bill viten postponed to Wednesday next. Mr. Cti.mosow, from.the Insolvent Debtors Court, presented an account of persons discharged uncle, the Insolvent Debtors' Act, and of the amount of their debts, Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. The Suits Removal Bill was committed.—Report on Monday. Mr. LITTLETON presented a Petition from certain Attor "revs and Solicitors, against allowing improper persons to obtain stamp certificates, authorising them to practise as Conveyancers. Read and ordered to lie on the table. The Parochial Societies Bill was committed, Report received, and ordered to be further considered on Monday ee'nnighn The third reading ot the Marriage Act Amendment Dill was postponed till Wednesday. Sir R. WILSON asked the Attorney-General when he in tended to bring in the Bill which be had last night moved tor, relative to the prevention of British Subjects from enlisting in the service of Foreign Powers? At the same time he gave no • tice, that he was resolved to use the utmost of his humble endea vours to oppose the Bill in every stage.—No answer was given. BUILDING NEW. CHURCHES. • • Ott the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE QUER, the House resolved itself into a Committee, to consider - the Memorial of the Scotch Chuicbes. • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said. it ap peared from this Memorial, that the Places of Worship belong , ing to the Established Church of Scotland, did not accomeno . date above one-fourth of the popuiation. lie moved a Resolu tion °' That the sum of £lOO,OOO be granted to his ALtjesty, towards erecting new Churches'in Scotlaod." After a few words from Mr. M. A. Tawas, ansi Lord A. VAUILTON. the Resolution was agreed to.--Report on Monday. ' Sir M. W. RIDLEY asked, with reference to the Bill passed 'last Session, for granting.4l,ooo,oo* for building Churches in • England, whether any account would be laid before the House, Of the application of that money? The MIANCELLOR of tNe XICCIFEQUER said, the Commissioners entrusted with thakinansgeinest of the money, would present a Reim to Pailianseet. • s ORDNAWC/L On the motion of Mr. R. WA4). the House went into a Committee of Supply. Mr. R. WARD then moved, that a sum not exceeding £lOO,OOO bre granted on account of Ocdnante Service for the • e seessis ' , cat.. A 6 l ocd to. Ilse House resumed, and the Report was ordered to be re ceived on Monday next. 43AME LAWS. On the Order of the Day for the further considera tion of the Report of the Game Laws' Amendment Bill,- Mr. BRAND moved the Bill be recommitted. Sir J. SHELLE Y opposed the Bill, as tending to encourage poaching. The evils of it would not per haps be very soon ielt by great Landed Proprietors ; but on small Properties they would at once be telt. The community would derive no benefit from far mers bet-ogling sportsmen. He wished to say a few words respecting the field sports of this country.— They required perseverance, decision, and courage, and were an excellent school for young Officers— (Lesteter).—He moved, as an Amendment, that the Bill be committed this day six months. Sir J. SEBItIGIIT maintained that the true prin ciple with respect to Game was, that every man should have the property in the Game on his own estate. The Game Laws, as they now stood, were wholly inadequate, and it was not possible to pre serve Game in any part of the kingdom without hay ing recourse to other Laws which had no direct re ference to the subject. The Game Laws gave powers to certain persons which ought not to be comfnitted to any one. As the Law now stood, any person qua lified to shoot, whether he had or had not leave, might go into any Gentleman's plantation and shoot, till he was warned off—( Hear, hear).—A man might have copyhold property to the amount of 4:10,000 a-year, and yet not have any legal right to kill the Game on his own property. Any Game in the country which was now preserved, was su pre-* served not by the Game Laws, but by force of arms —by night patroles—(!leer,heat).—As a Magistrate, he took this opportunity of entering his protest against the present system of our Game Laws. • Mr. 1.0&,.r WELLESLEY' had been astonished to hear it said that abundance of Game was an in ducement to Gentlemen tO reside on their properties: lie denied that this was the fact. There were many persons resident Country Gentlemen who did not preserve their Game. The Honourable Baronet who spOke last, had over-rated the evils of the Game Laws. This Bill did not totally repeal the Game Laws, but only the objectionable parts of them. The great argument in favour of this Bill was, that many most advantageous enactments were inoperative. An Honourable Baronet had talked of fox-hunting as re quiring courage, decision, and perseverance, but he sought to have added, that it also required huntaxity. (Laughter).—This Bill was not a new measure. It had been tried in the case of wild fowls and rabbits, which were openly and legally sold, yet there was no scarcity of either. Mr. F. DOUGLAS said this was a most important question, as it much concerned the internal economy of the kingdom. The question was not whether great evils did not exist under the present system cf the Game Laws, but whether this Bill would have the effect of removing them The honourable Gen tleman thought dirs Bill would put an end to one great evil—the disputes as . to Manorial Rights. But what was the remedy ? It was to create fifty Pro prietors of Game *here there was now one. *By opening the posantiott of Gams to so many persons, , 1 ~:;~~ -~► lib thotight litigation and disputes would be infinitely increased. He also Objected to this_Bill as it affeeted one particular 4 clast. In foreign ciihntries Game was collected in forests,. and the Sportsman was there a regular profession. But in such a country as this, there were the strongest objections to making the yeomen sportsmen. If this Bill, was passed, the whole body of yeomanry would, in fact, be made poachers, and trained to the lawless habits inciden‘ to.such a life. The question of profit had little to do with the, enjoyments of a poacher's life. These were produced by its indolence and adventure. Ile "conceived: that in this respect poaching and gambling were similar All his own prepossessions were in favour of this Bill; but on mature consideration, lie thought it was one which ought not to pass into a law. The Marquis of TAVISTOCK said, the present Game Laws were a great nuisance, and that poaching had increased to an alarming extent. He was strongly in favdur of the Bill. Mr. G. BANKES said, he was in hopes that on the principle of this Bill a sufficient remedy might be provided for that system which had been justly stig matized as harsh and oppressive. All his own at tempts to frame a Bill which should effect this had been liable to great objections, , and therefore had been rejected by the House. He was therefore very anxious to see the present Bill. But on examining it, ' he found it liable to every one of the objectionsmAtch had been fatal to all the others proceeding on the same principle. Under,thia Bill, by which game was made private property, if any proprieter• attempeed to take any of it, by night or by day with a net. al ! though lie could not kilt a single bird, yet merely for going out, he was, for the hrst offence; liable to st . penalty of 201. for a second 301. and for a third:to be indicted before the Quarter Sessions, where, if, convicted, he must be sentenced to pa, a fine of 501., in open Cour4 and on refusal or demurring, to be sent to jail or to Bridewell, and at the option of the Magistrate, to be publicly whipped—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) It was truly said, that this Bill did notl entirely repeal the Game Laws. In truth, the two! most objectionable and severe statutes were confirmed and enforced by it. This Bill generally stated, that the game should be the property of the person on whose soil they were found. But then it authorized landlords to insert in leases reserving to themselves the right to the game, and depriving the tenant of all property in it. It was obvious that this clause ' would, almost in every case, be inserted, and the tenant would have no more property in the game, or interest in preserving it at present. The lion. Member ventured to object to die principle of the Bill, because he was convinced that no standard cculd be formed by which game could be either pro tected or sold. It consisted of anomalies which could . never be reconciled to common sense. The Com mittee was at variance with the greatest law audio.' City in the country. In his opinion, it defeated' its professed object regarding the sale of game, be cause he very much doubted if any Gentleman would, sell his game, even admitting the intended enact ! i ment to pass. It would be curious to see written' over the Park-gate. of :a Gentleman—" Licensed tol sell gamer But what was to become of the• Cle rgyman ? The' Bill held out pmvision for his tithes:l No doubt that would be, included in some clause, shnitlei tile Bill be recistrnitted,--either by granting to the Clergyman the tenth bird, or he might wait for his tenth shot ! —(hane! er.) Mr. WILBERFORCE promised not to detain the House long. He had heard with much pleasure a :diplay of considerable talents by the young and Ho nourable Member who hat just down; but ants) , he was that such talents shoald have been converted into erroneous principles. The Hon. Gentleman had felt all the force of the arguments on one side, with out admitting or feeling the force. of those on the crthatelltde. To shut one's ears against reason, because a sudden partiality had been formed against the Bill, was, in his humble opinion, not the way of arriving at the truth. It was evident that a considerable por tion of the population of the country consumed game, it was therefore necessary that some provision should be made that they should be gratified, without ha zarding the life or liberty of the person who supplied them with game. If no provision were made for the supplying of game by sale,' the pains and penalties of those laws which disgrace our statute-book would continue to remain in full force. Not only was game 'consumed to a very considerable amount in this great town, but iu every town in the kingdom, in proportion to the population. No 'person of any spectability, during the game season, could ask a party to dinner without affording his guests a relish of game. If game was so generally consumed, and if poaching was increased by the consumption, it fol lowed' of course that crime was increased in the same ratio. He remembered what Dr. Franklin' said when be once surveyed some sugar, by drawing a strong and pathetic Aservation ou a process stained with the blood of our fellow-creatures (the blacks.). ,In,a similar view, he could scarcely see game without contemplating the crime wit!' which it might perhaps have been produced. They why continue this sys tem of immorality ? Ti - en why encourage crimi nals, step by step, till at last they came to the gal lows? Experience shews that.thc present laws, only ,produce illicit practices, and these illicit practices seduce the mind from *ni c e by practices which are More criminal. Do away at once the illicit traffic -by licenses, and tell those concerned when they may take out their license. He hoped and trusted that the Bill.Vreuld meet with a favourable reception, in its further progress through the House. In these! days, _ashen England was conspicuous for enlightened, nay,more, conspicuous for moral systems, he begged that we. would net dishoneur ourselves by: altowiqk these penal statutes to remain in our legal Code, 'lre most sincerely.thanked the Hon. Member, Mi. Brand, for the introduction of a Bill, which , was calculated to do away a vexatious and destructive Spire: Full, one-half of the game consumed in theAgelgOnt qas consumed in the metropolis—consuniolll. -persons who connived at, or were' regardless the irhma Fall* and crimes which attended the procuring of it. For the sake of humanity, tlserefore m he . earuestlY. Seated that the House would censer* to the, prin . , •ciples of thi which might be reieumr4ttect aa4 aneFte4, as /910 expedient.,. . RAt.: , 13A_Ng0,,nen, roe ti? Os! -w14 : " 1 1.10Ouralile $lOlO Frien74heifoine) ilia Lim. Ire had in deavtinieit tn iOreaSnit the lime the it sonvenien .ties off' the VlteA, This was an orWhich no one caida dent. 'Bit Ho 'fiend ~~~t"' _"' . 4 • ' n at the Game be imprisonepi ou account of a vicdatia . . laittente_ d _that . such a multitude of offenders should H La o w no s. ura l ta p e -th v i r s ie r n e a g . rct ß a u n t d a ll m d p re a i ds r y u , n h i t e ec i o l r a uld en ti .. s lions could not prevent crime. The number of convic dons in late years, he (Mr. Baiikes) was happy to say, had very considerably diynioished. There were num bers of persons who would have game at:all risks, and therefore encouraged poachers. He admired the sympathy of his Honourable Friend. His feel ingsbad been were e e x z e g re tr i i se si tde. i n H a b e e ss u i e s r h e e d a , u s h e ow th e an ver that that of th tb ey e poachers, those base violators of the law. His Ho. nourable Friend wished to be.errabled th qualify ; i v o e i r l y ou m l n a b i i i e to sell g d a id m i e rot . conceive license, has h ase is crime. He had argued, that by a license you de teervechwoau stroy illicit practices; and therefore poaching would be at once suppressed, and never heard of, whenever the salutary effects of this his favourite Bill were car ried into effect. Most people were desirous of obtain ing contraband goods. But would the repeal . of the laws against smuggling prevent crime? A license in many cases became a sanction or protection for crime. The Newspapers were lately filled with ac counts of convictions againit the Eloise Laws, name ly, convictions for, adulterating teas, &c. His Ho nourable Friend would not forget that the persons thus convicted were dealers according to license, that is, theylad licenses to deal in tea. Licensed dealers iu game would increase poaching ten-fold, and thus inclease 'crime. His Honourable Friend ought to know that poachers were the worst husbands, and in most instances deserted their families. But this new breed of poachers would be licensed and protected by his Honourable Friend ! He (Mr. Bankes) was asto nished at the wrong exercise of his Horiourable Friend's good sense. From the time of the Conquest till the laws now condemned, all right to game was vested W the Crown alone. The Honourable Member illus trated his arguments by a reference to the Roman law on that subject. After dwelling on this for some time, he insisted that the law now proposed was one of the strangest anomalies of the kind he had ever seen or heard of. lie cautioned the House against passing such a law by a reference to France during the Revolution. At a particular period the French Legislators, in their wisdom, and in their zeal for what !hey termed liberty, abolished all Game Laws. The consequence was, that in a very short time the game of France, was, almost totally destroyed. Sir JOHN SEBRIGHT explained; and in allusion to the last Honourable Member, deelpred that he would much rather thezame of the whole kingdom were destroyed, than that the tvranny of the laws were suffered to go on longer—(Hear.) 'Mr. MARRYATT spoke in support of the Bill. In one place to which lie alluded, one poacher had been shot, another apprehended, and yet the party or gang continued to send up to London two or three baskets, full of.pfleasants every week--(Hear, hear). A Nzw MEMBER, whose name we could'not learn, spoke limn the Ministerial side in favour of the Bill, and 'bestowed` - ninety encomiums on the Honourable MeMber (Mr. Britia)for thlindefatigable pains which he had taken to produce such a law. It is to poach ing we shonicl4,4rote •in this instance,. crime, and the Bill now proposed would prevent it. Another New Mmetzn y ozho was totally unknown Chet* eaftry; 'SPOIEt 'fitin the Opposition side. He ridiculed the.l3ill now proposed. It was any thing but a Game . Bilk -...lt.anght. indeed, be termed an attempt to,plokeisese tr . Oe-Constirution, and game of the Housel-4A lourit or T ata he Honourable Father of the Bill had dwelt . eli i on the morality of the Bill. But it was inY thing hitt a moral Bill ! (Another laugh). It is a Bill to put arint into the hands of every man in the country, and consequently would endanger the Government and the Constitu tion !—(No, no ! resounded from several parts.) The Honourable Member persisted that it was a Bill to arm the country from one end to the other !—(No, no ! reiterated.) If the Bill were suffered to be car ried through the House, the next thing Government must do, for the preservation of the State, would be to augment his Majesty's forces to the number at least of 10,000 men ! = (l.aughter.) Another New MEMBER, respecting whose name we were equally unfortunate in our ,inquiries, as with those cf the two Gentlemen who preceded him, spoke from the Opposition side. The Honourable Member made a very sensible maiden speech in support of the Bill, and was much cheered. Should the Bill, how ever, be recommitted, he would object to the clause which legalized the sale of game by license. Mr. SCAILLETT, in allusion to some Gentleman, affirmed, that be had mistaken the grounds of the law. Game was in some measure already licensed ; for instance, the establishment of free warrants went to prove the assertion.. Although a supporter of the measure, he declared himself inimical to poaching, which ought to be put down. The present Bill would bind to suppress poaching, if not totally prevent it. In'many of its operations it had his cheerful concur rence. It went to establish in a'clearer view the right of property to game. It gave it to the tenantry, or ,the cccitliers of - the soil, whether qualified or not. The tenantry or yeomanry of the country were a most numerous and a most respectable class of society; and it was certainly exceedingly hard that they should be deprived of the use of the game, although cultiva tors of the soil en which such game was reared, As the game, by the present laws, was not the pro perty of such cultivators of the soil, they of course encouraged poachers to clear their land. In times when wages were low, farmers have frequently al lowed their servants to poach by night, in order that they might avail themselves of the season while game continued plenty or numerous. But pass this Bill and you not only suppress poaching, but every setwest will become a guardian or protector to the game, it being then the interest of the farmer to pre serve it till disposed of by sale. The passing of the' Bill,will very much relieve and pacify the poor, by, Vet* prov ing ;hat the Legislature is ready to re-' oppressive Acts. He conderpned those laws labich pressed hard on the poor man in contradis tiac 'en to the rich. If severe law s were necessary si, for e preservation 'of game, why n ot enac t severe laWs r the preservation of poultry ? As well might they impose upon the poor man a law for the use of Water or air—the very water which he drank or the etl:4tbiCh tin fireathed—(Hear, hear, he ar . ) R en d er . . C7property, and there will be no v i o l at i on o f t h e , 1 . 45 ~is7 a inat as the people .of England find that 'pipe . 60 . 01:arty, the public- mind will be at rest, - .NI and all will be reconciled to the laws. If a ny ~, I lid tun th it e y B wo in ul w d ere occ 4b ur jec for ted a W me b n y d G Ze n n t !.: men wh e , : l t iii i was re-comnaitted. There was a very extract-din; anomily of the law, which Gentlemen iv 'I payth c Lor l,o : o of a ydetear to h;, ere rot at , quainted with. fly the law, as it now sto e d , , rar, of 10,600 acres had no real property in game ; A l e ,' he were Lord of the Manor. This far: came w ;O, - , l ' his own knowledge in the course of his piofevior'i avocations. Why should have this pcivilege at the expense, or to the ow,. siort, of the cultivators oreenantry of the soh ? p l. though- a farmer should landlord, yet that farmer had no right to a'sina bird on the soil which h e culti:ated. It w aF t , .,, t , fore his interest to.uestroy it, in ordtr that he ti!! v i ; clear his land oll' a destructive incumbiance—,md`de, stroy it by the means of poachers. Legalize the tale of satire, and you will not only remove 1 oa c hi nt . , but diminish, if not prevent, crime—(ikar, bear: s _: The sale of game would have no other effect ttlaa tL e sale of any marketable commodity. It wi IN ta , diminish game. Has, the sale of cattle dimiantcd the supply ? No. By the same reasoning, it v 0,4 not diminish game. As the profits by the :Cie of cattle encourage the fa:mer to protect it, so the pm. fits by the sale of game would have a like tendency, (Hear. hear l) Alder Man HEYGATE believed that the Bill non under discussion would increase, instead of diminish, game. All would be interested in the preservati oa of it, the-same as in the preservation of poultry, or any othir marketable article. . When the sale was li. tensed, it would be the interest of the farmer ard snail occupier of land to preserve the game. The worthy Alderman recommended to the country Genuemee a more constant residence on their estates, in older to conciliate the affections of the people by the old English .hospitalities. He recommended to them all° to improve the morals of the people by example, and thus render themselves beloved, and their tenantry happy—(Hear, hear.) Mr. PIOLME SUMNER replied to come argu. ments which had fallen from Mr. Scarlett. ,n his avocation as a Magistrate, he had found that the man who robbed a pig-stye or a heroroost, had uniformly been a poacher. He was adverse to the Bill. Mr.IIRAND maintained that the very ob;ect of his Bill was not chiefly, but substantively forthe pre ' sertation of game. He had been induced to the measure by observing the' vicious practices among the lower ordeis. .It was therefore intended as an improvement of morals by, the prevention of crime. If it were necessary to supply the Metropolis with game, it would be more becoming that the se ply hould be legalized than that it should come accom panied by crime. The chief part of the supply was afforded by the lower orders. They were, as had been said, the chief poachers, and consequently in this point of view were the direct violators of chi law. In the relief which he proposed, he W:l3 not speaking simply of the tenantry, but of that vast and posverful yeomanry which Was the pride and defence of the State. It was natural for a person who held a ;km to think it exceedingly hard that he should not only be deprived of the game produced on the soil, bit annoyed by strangers authorized by the Lora of the Manor. Two chief objects of the Bill would be— first, to have London and the yarions towns veil supplied with game by legal authprity; andserondly, to render the efforts of the tenansty:and yeomanry conducive to this laudable operation." , The Honour able Member wished to do justice terA without dc' ing injustice to aoy. It was propersed that the game should he the property of the individual ate/bower pence the soil was cultivated, whether a tenant or a small land proprietor. With regaed to the - ments advanced by the Honou za bi e Membe r ~_'' ingenious son (Messrs. Bankes); he (Mr. Brand) . nothing which militated powerfully against' thk.B3l. He approved much of the moral lecture which hail been read by the worthy Alderman. Let gentlemen repair to their country seats, and cultivate a led and proper understanding with their tenantryby the revival of the old English hospitalities, and dethilt strate to the people, by example, theit earnest4oliii tude for moral rectitude. Madame de Scisetiqd truly said, that a man's worth was not to be estin*: ted by the extent or riches of his property, bit b the character which he held in the eyes of the people, by the fine position and important space which he filled in the state of human affairs (Hear, hear, kw.) It was not trifling objects and contemptible purposes which afforded the true description of an English Gentleman. The real character was grand and dig nified, and well deserved the high euloginms which had been bestowed on it by men of the first eminence. The removal of the Penal Laws which now disgraced our Statutes would add to the many excellent quali ties which were known to be the composition of the magnanimous character now attempted to be shortly delineated.—The House divided:—For the Bill, 59; Against it, 119—Majority, 60. - The Ildadhuuse Bill went through a Conunittee.—Report 0 Monday next. The American Convention Bill abo went through a Comma tee.—lteport on Monday, s i e ~'.~::" , PENRYN BRIBERY BILL. The House having gone into a Committee on this Bill, Thomas Trela e was called in, and examined Sir CHARLES BURRELL. The witness was acquainteii with electionsactions in Penryn. There had been a strong party in favour of Sir Manasseh Lopez. Meetings had been held in his favour. Does the witness zt-coilect attending on Sir Manasseh Lopez, with a statement of the numbers that would vote for him? Mr. R. MARTIN objected to this question. as it might criminate the witness. Sir CHARLES BURRELL, (the witness having been ordered to withdraw) contended that no witness could criminal himself by evidence in that House, since it wOulebe a violation of the privileges of lit House to make any use of that evidence elsewhere. Mr. BROGDEN (the Chairman) said, that there could be no doubt of the power of the Committee to put any question it chose ; but the Committee wg , exercise its clacretion in using that power. The ee.- ing of the Committee seemed to be, that the question should be answered.—(Hear, hear.) The witness was called in and informid of thin de• cision. He answered the question in the negative. In what terms did the witness convey to Sir M. Lora tie number that was ready to vote for him ?—I suppose 1 haw 0 right to answer that question. Mr. 11..MART1N (the witness having been ordrel to withdraw? urged several objections to this qub - don, as tending to criminate himself. Sir JOHN NEWPORT argued, that examinatiLr 4 • la.