Star. — London, England, 1819-12-01 00:00:00

i•~' . , t 1 i • `{ • 1 A ~: • • .1 1 , 1 • It 4 ti ~F I.Vitutegust, bad forirme to carry that proposition au) effect, upon a warning from the Magistrates that he intended Meeting was illegal ; and had afterwards Galled a fresh Meeting, which it was now to stamp with illegality—without any pains taken to caution People against attending it—without any intimation of its imputed unlawfulness, sent in the troops to dis • perse them by force, the Riot Act having been read in the mean time. ProceediQgs .so unusual and vio lent had naturally alarmed the People in every part of the country, who became anxious that they should be fully inquired into; but, instead of a step so cal.. culated to soothe their alarm, they had been astounded by a letter floni the Noble Secretary of State, con veying to the Magistracy and Yeomanry the Thanks of Government. The Noble Lord contended that the Laws bad been utterly disregarded and violated in' the instance of the Meeting at Mar.Thester. With respect to the checking of seditious and blasphemous Libels, he contended thai the existing Laws, when vigorously executed and enforced by repeated and swell-directed prosecutions, had always been and would ever be found fully ef f icient. He alluded to the case of Mr. Wilkes, who he stated to have been persecuted into notoriety, which, however, had left him like a burnt-out volcano; and such would have been the case in other instances, if petty publications were left to themselves tp dwindle into contempt. Lord GRENVILLE said, he had for many years watched with apprehension the geowth and progress of those mischievous doctrines and opinions which now agitated the country. He had been called an alarniist, and his apprehensions were treated as groundless or exaggerated; and he had, perhaps, carried them, on some occasions, from his too great solicitude for those Institutions which be had been taught to venerate and hold dear, somewhat farther than a momentary view of passing occurrences might strictly warrant. Yet who, viewing at this day the pitch to which those doctrines had been carried—the extent to which they had increased—and the rapidity with which they had gained ground ;—who, that re flected for a moment on the vast and disastrous con• sequences which 'they threatened, would venture to say that his fears had been visionary ?—(Hear, hear). —The very alarming progress of discontent, the terrific increase of disaffection, the heated and in flamed temper of the public mind, called loudly and imperatively upon their Lordships, not for specula tive inquiries into abstract theories of improvement, but boldly and resolutely to meet the dangers that menaced existing establishments, with powerful and effective remedies—(Hear, hear, hear, fits the Mi nisterial Beaches). He would appeal with confidence to every man of sound discretion to say, if the pro. gress of opinions dangerous to, nay, subversive of, our dearest institutions,' had not far outstripped his greatest fears ? No man was more deeply impressed than himself with the distress and misery which pressed upon the people, particularly in the manu facturing districts. No one was more inclined to make every due allowance to the irritation which that dis tress was in some degree calculated to excite in the minds of the sufferers; but he believed that the sedi tious symptoms whicE had now manifested themselves were to be traced to another cause. He believed the root of the evil to lie far deeper. He could not be lieve, that the minds of the whole population of so vast a district could have been worked up to the pitch of ferment which they had now reached, unless other circumstances had ca-operated in producing that effect, with the circumstance of their pressing dis tresses. Although he thought that the discontent had outstripped the distressesof the People—although he did trot think that these distresses could at all jus• Weir popular excess, yet he conceived it to be the duty of Parliament to regard those distresses with sym pathy, with commiseration, and with an anxious de sire and earnest endeavour to effect their relief. If he• thought the weight of misery which pressed on the People could be so easily and readily lightened and removed, he should view the state of the Country with less gloom and apprehension than • he now did. But, unfortunately, the distresses of the People were of a nature not susceptible of immediate relief, and not within the power of this Government to remove; and this very inability had been urged as an argu ment against the Government, and used as a means of increasing the irritation of the minds of the People. It was impossible to strike out, at once, any plan for effectually removing the pressure of distress. 2— Temporary measures would not have the effect of al laying it—its cure mast be a work of time; and if he • could for a moment suppose that it would not engage the constant attention of Parliament, he, for one, would not be backward in forcing that attention by the pro posal of some specific measure for that purpose. In the proposed inquiry, so many subjects for considera tion presented themselves, all of primary import, that it was not possible to embrace the whole in one view, or to consolidate them in we efficient measure. The motion of the Noble Lord was so extensive—in deed, so immeasurable in its scope, that no practica ble result, no positive good, could be derived from its adoption. • [The space below the bar was so extremely crowded, and the beat so oppressive, that a Gentleman fell down f a a fit, in this part of the. Noble Lord's slpeech, which caused sense confesien; the sufferer being taken out, his Lordship proceeded}... Look at the connected march of the system, and mark well its progress. How was it, in a neighbour. ing nation, that the way had - been prepared for the overthrow of its Government, and for the mischiefs which had followed ? It was by deluging the land with seditious, atheistical, and blasphemous publica tions, which sapped and undermined every moral and religious principle, and every tie of social obli gation. His opinion of the cousequences of the dis semination of such doctrines, had been formed from long and connected observation of their progress, and rested not on the events of the present day; and the conclusion at which lie had arrived. was, that if some means were not devised to check them,. and, to arrest their career, they- would infallibly overwhelm the Constitution, and involve tlse country in ruin. Union Societies had been established fur the purpose of dis seminating more easily, and with greater effect, per nicious and destructive principles. Numerous Meet ings of the People had been repeatedly called, for the purpose of teaching them to estimate their physical strength, and gradually preparing them for acts of open violence. The propositions of the Noble Lord tended to weaken if not to Neat the only means of arresting the approaching danger °ranch proceedings. Meetings had been held, tumultuous, menacing, And hostile to the present Establishments—Meetings which he could not but think highly dangerous, and this.l not only at Manchester, but td other places, to which Meetings indeed he could not bust attac h the character of Manchester law learned ancheste in h is t youth. There was s , as d irectly contrary of to l e l v le e g ry al. That principle of was another circumstance besides open violence, which constituted the illegality of such a Meeting, which was its operating in terrorem populi, which he contended was the case at Manchester. He begged that Noble Lords would consider the situation of Manchester, and the nature and character of its inha bitants, and then say if the convening of so vast an assemblage could fail of producing terror in the minds of sober people. If the conduct of an individual were such as to produce fear in another, a Magistrate would afford protection to the individual who laboured un der such apprehensions ; and if a large assembly pre sented such an appearance as to produce alarm to a body of peaceful people, would any man say that the Magistrates were not even bound to interfere and use their endeavours to dissipate their fears by removing the cause? If culpability attached at all to the Ma ' gictrates at Manchester, it was for having so long delayed their interposition ; but it would be a strange position to assert, that because too much latitude had already been given to such proceedings, no attempt was ever to be made to check and put them down,— If the Magistrates had been loth to. interfere too much Kith Popular Meetings—if they had been anxious to avoid unnecessary encroachment upon the Right of the People, and in their solicitpde had even suffered some Abuses of those rights to pass un checked, no ground could thence be deduced for blaming their subsequent endeavours to put a stop to such excesses ? Nay, he must say, that, in his opinion, the Magistiates had merited the unqualified approbation of their Lordships, and it was, to say the least, very injudicious of persons at County Meet ings, held far from the scene of action, to express opi nions in censure of that conduct-so strong as had been done in some instances—(Rear, hear). With respect to the Ministerial Lette r of Thanks which had been so much the. subject of animadversion, be could not but think that it would have been a high dereliction of official duty to have withheld that communication, which the Magistrates .had a right to expect, of the light in which Gove r nme n t viewed the case as represented in their statement. Even if the military had pushed their violence to the utmost extreme, still the Magistrates had a right to be in formed of the opinion formed by Government on their conduct, founded on the representations which they had made—(Loud cries of hear, hear, hear).— The district over which the j ur i s di c ti on o f those Ma gistrati.ss extended, comprising the counties of Lance 'dike and Cheshire, bad been so widely overspread by.the fermentation excited by seditious and bias `phemous publications, that it had become imperative on them to be continually on the alert. They had tarried their forbearance to the utmost pitch, and if they had extended it to that Meeting, the conse quences might have been irretrievable; had they neglected their duty on that occasion, it were impos sible to say if the opportunity could ever again have occurred to do it with effect. The excesses commit ted in that part of the country had given occasion to the calling of Parliament together to concert mea tures for restraining them ; he would ask, therefore, what opinion could be f orme d o f the attempts - tha t were made at its first Meeti ng to turn their attention from measures for curbing the culpable, to inquiries Into the conduct of those who had done nothing but their duty ? Those upright and conscientious Ma gistrates ought not to be cited to the Bar of the House as it criminal. It had been seen, that the Courts of Law were open to complaints against them, though they bad done their duty, and thank GOD, they were also open to charges against those who had been criminal. Their Lordships well knew the industry with which it had been endeavoured to fasten upon the 'Yeomanry every thing that was deemed objec tionable in the proceedings of that day. This was a 'part of the system. In France, the enemies of Go-. vernment had laboured the progressive annihilation of every body of men from whom that Government derived any support. He hoped such attempts would not succeed in this instance, for he was confident that to the Yeomanry the Country was much indebted for its safety; and at this moment they were particu larly useful; they were armed in defence of all our cherished Institutions, and of every dear and venera ble right we possessed. The Noble Lord pursued his panegyric on the Yeomanry, ass most useful and efficient institution. He attributed much of the dis tress endured by the People to those agitators who had inflamed their minds, and changed their habits of industry into those of riot and turbulence, and taught them to regard with hostility tho se t o w h om they should naturally look up for protection and re lief. (The Noble Lord, during his speech, was fre quently interrupted by cheers). Earl GREY stated his embarrassment at finding himself now opposed to some Noble Friends with whom he had long been in habits of co-operation. He rose to support the motion of his Noble Friend. The dangers with which the country was thmatened were indeed gteat ; inquiry was therefore particularly necessary. Much difference of opinion existed as to the cause of the present disquiet. 'the Noble Lord who had just sat down did not think distress was the primary cause. The causes of the existing distress were doubtless many and complicated, but that was certainly the'main cause of the discontent. In July, the Magistrates had intimated their apprehension€ for the consequences of the distress under wbich the people laboured, yet nothing had been attempted by. Government' towards its relief. Look at.the disturbed districts, and ray whether distress was not the prin. 'cipal cause? That it was so was evident from the cir cumstance that discontent prevailed in proportion to the extent of the distress existing. Much gratuitous mischief of intentio n h a d b een impute d to t h e people, overthrow fie believed the numb er o f t h ose w h o w i s h e d t h e overthrow of the Constitution was very trifling. 'The Noble Lord proceeded to animadvert upon the opinions formerly delivered in that House by the' `Noble Lord (Grenville).on the expediency of re ducing the military power of the country. He also 'slightly sketched the consequences of the war, which, ' be said, had been undertaken with France, to pnt idOwn_ popular opinion ; and continued a strain of ani- Mated remark on the progress of the system adopted by Ministers, who, bn evert SUCCetSPIO appearance Of upluitt symptoms, had propqded measures pf re abiction exceeding irrsevesity those which had. pre ceded: That such measures had always been fol- A A tita b t r re o. re an alar a n cL in cgk awpptarinv openly r se ili f ! i ts on ecki th ee 4 dearest rights remaining to Englishinen. The &dile Lord (Grenville) had stated, that the arkient Govern ment of France had been unable to withstand the atogrieriennAtt it f t b p y u se bl d ic iti o o p u i s nn w p io ubiiea hc t i ion h s had been publications; and n e yet he scted sup portedineasures for putting dnwr. such opinion in this country, cnuntry, though the Government of France had posses. sed a power of restraint far beyond that now proposed, which therefore could not be hoped to be efficient.— The present system, therefore, must end in a power t of Government far exceeding any which had existed in France previous to the Revolution, and the career of Ministers seemed to tend to no other milk- And what was , the nature of those opinions which required such extraordinary exertions of power to repress?-.: what were the dangers with which they were so rife? He was yet to learn whether it was illegal for people to call for Universal Suffrage and Annual Parlia. ments? He had himself been always a friend to a Moderate Reform in the House of Commons; but because he differed from men who wanted what was called a Radical Reform, he would not, on that ac 7 count, put them down and oppress them. Surely, it Could be no crime in the People to meet together even for such a purpose. It was well known, that in he time of Lord George Gordon's mobs, when the' Members going to attend their duty in Parliament were intimidated and attacked, theDulte of Richmond laid a Bill on the table of that House for a Reform in Parliament on the principle of Universal Suffrage ; and now he was told that it was a crime in the Peo ple to call for such a measure!—(Hear, heai., hear). The late LordShatham, the late Mr. Pitt, Mr. Fox, and the greatest men that ever were in this country, declared themselves friends to Radical Reform; and in the sentence that was lately passed upon Sir. M anasseh Lopez, the Judge said, " the first interest of the Government was to protect the purity of the House of Commons;" and when a Judge held such language as that, was Parliament to turn round upon the People, and condemn them, when in the midst of their distresses they called for a Reform in Par liament, which they imagined would give them re lief? He was aeady to agree with the Noble Mar quis (Wellesley) that an assemblage collected t?ge ther in terrorem pepuli was illegal, Inn he maintained that numbers did not make a Meeting illegal, al though numbers collected in such a manner as to produce an appreheMion for the public safety, gave the Magistrates a right to take means to disperse them. But no Meeting, however numerous, or whatever son nets might be carried before it, could be considered as illegal, unless it could be proved by the conduct of such Meeting that the parties attending it medi tated designs against the public tranquillity. On thii principle, =craven after looking at the documenta which had been laid on the table, be was convinced that the Meeting at Manchester was a legal one.—: Was it possible to suppose that men going quietil along with their wives and children, could have met ditated any hostile designs against the Military ?!.. But whether the Meeting was legal or illegal, Mead, depend on the facts of the case, and for that nand an inquiry 'was called for as emphatically neck. . But, admitting fo r argument sa k e t h at t hi Meeting was illegal, that could not have author rized the Magistrates to send in a corps of Cavalry into an unarmed mob, to cut them to the right ant( left, and commit an indiscriminate military execution? He was as ready as any man to uphold the charactei of Magistrates, because no men were more useful The country ; but he asked, were they to be upheld on all occasions, whether they were right or wrong? The Meeting in question had assembled for the puN pose of discussing Parliamentary Reform. The Ma gistrates knew the object for which the Meeting wad to be held ; they knew there were flags and banners;, there was as much appearance of illegality before the Meeting, as when the people were all assembled and why did not the Magistrates stop the people from coming in, and prevent th e M eet i ng a l toget h er ? All this time,..Nadin, and some others equally obnoxious to the people, were walking about very quietly, with out meeting with any obstruction. If the Magi strates then thought the people, who were coming in, were acting illegally—Why did they wait until - the whole mob was collected together : and then, before any offence was committed, why did they send in a body of armed cavalry to make a charge on this mob, under pretence of arresting Mr. Hunt? It was said the Riot Act was read ; but he did not believe it was; for several persons swore no such thing was done; that no notice whatever was given to the people,• until the Cavalry rushed in : and it was also proved, that no opposition whatever was made to the Cavalry. Then, he would ask, whether this was not a case which called most loudly for inquiry? Never was there one, he maintained, which required it mere. This was not giving way to popular clamour ; it was only doing justice- r which the voice of the Country loudly called for. One very material fact was proved before the Coroner, which was, that the swords *bate Cavalry had been sharpened. In short, there was evidence enough to call for inquiry. The People were said to have disturbed the public peace; but he maintained, that the Magistrates were the dis turbers of the peace. But it was said, that the Courts of Justice were open to the parties injured. How could that be the case? Hew could any proceeding be adopted against the Magistrates ?—there could be none; and it was only by inquiry the real merits of the case could-be brought to light. With regard to the information contained in the Papers, he was con fident the greater part of it was given by spies and informers. Some of these said they had purchased pikes; hat there was no evidence of pikes being found; no depot was discovered; nothing was found that could excite the slightest alarm in any man's breast. Here the Noble Earl read over several of the papers, and commented on them as he went along.; and re peated his opinion, that no case ever occurred which so loudly called for'a Parliamentary Inquiry as that .which now occupied the attention of their Lordships. die was aware that those persons called Radical Re formers•were decided enemies to the Whigs—that ha himself was pointed out by name as their greatest, if their principal enemy. He knew that if those persons were to succeed in'obtaining that which they t. for, be would be their first victim; .but, see. standing this, when he found an attempt made, over these people, to aim a vital• blow at the Consti tution bf the Country, he was determined, as far as 'in his power,. to interpose/kis shield and prevent it:— (Hear, hear). The course which' he now pursued le ati ldco al u ,in the o was a nr dp o wwi t erth c a wh l c hi t si t c l s a il : e a d ht ee o t e o fn promote di tho se yip. v to of th'eprperity He was not so w ea k as to suppose that at q c u e i I andlity ; but, os above of any popular co mmot i on, 4, Ride on the whi r lwi n d , and direct the stern' His only object at thi s ti me of Lie was an d an be x p io eac us e fo a r n-d the tr p l ea n He was anxious to see that blessed Co which had been the work of our ancesto rs pure and inviolate. If t h ese o b jects were ancestors, would sink to his grave with peace and satis (flair, hear, hear).—He concluded by givin g his cordial support to the Motion of his Noble The . Earl of t4iVEitPOOL observed, th at , the able manner in which this question had' cussed, he had .very little to say upon it ; cbuld not refrain from 'noticing some points in Speeches of the Noble Earl and the Noble who opened the debate, both of whom difi in many particulars. The Noble Marquis buted the dangers of the country chiefly to tresses that.prevailed in the manufacturing , But distresses could not co nst i tute a ground' for liamentary inquiry, unless such inquiry were to some measures'of relief. A great error am the subject of these distresses ; for they connected with the Government, but arose causes over which Government had no controul; arose out of the fluctuations of our comme: ce foreign countries; and still greater dist— in the United States of America, and indeed the countrtes on the Continent of Eunpe. America, where the people boasted of haviz g utmost degree of political freedom, they were in greatest distress, which was the natural _ of the stoppage of that rapid commerce, of they had for twenty years enjoyed a kind of poly. With respect to our own country, causes had produced similar effects ; but it w, known, that during the last twenty years, merce and our wealth had increased in a degree. And in the very County which wis the subject of discussion, there was a very szr cumulation of wealth ; and the rapid means by that wealth had been produced ; namely, by nery, operated as causes for involving the distress, and any attempt of the Parliament to hasty measures for relieving . those distress do more harm thin good. That remark ef was as just in practice, as beautiful in thought— " How small die part of ills which men endure, That Logs sad Lords can either kill or curs!" With respett to the legality of the Meetings, wl had been alluded to, he would say, th a t if men lawfully meet for the ti purpose of obtaii,ing Suffrage, they could lawfully meet to alter the cession to the Crown, Or to effect any able purpose. The Meeting at Manchester . symptom of illegality about it, by its military its bangers, and other things that evinced a Lion to resist the Authorities of the Country. Noble Lord had observed, that no person of: consequence took a part in that Meeting, as thought these could be no danger if the i were all confined to the lower orders. Did Noble Lord forget • the history of the Wet Tyler and Jack Straw, in which the den had put the Government in the great peril, and committed the most dreadful c( of property? The Noble Lord had stated could be nothing dangerous in the Manche, ing, because women and children were 'Now he would tell the Noble Lord that fir a mob in Which there were not women an, and having been in Paris at the taking of and witnessed that event, he declared were numbers of women who took the . part in it. It was asked why the Magistrates not prevented the people from coming to the ing? The reason was—that the Magistrates not stop the numerous columns that were marchil into town in military array, without making a day gerous diversion of the military force which was so- Cloned there for the defence of the place ; and there. fore they were obliged to allow all the people foie collected together, and when they issued warrants for the arrest of the leaders, Nadia and another Constable declared, that they could not put tit* warrant in force without military aid. The manry were then ordered advance, and marched up in a slow pace to the hustings; when they came thee', they *ere attacked - with pistols, *ones, and brickbats. It was then di Yeomanry were obliged to stiike in their own de tence. Under these circumstances, he did as know in what way the Magistrates' were to blot. He declared, if he been there jimself, he kilo* not how he could have acted better than the ii?- gistrates did at that time. He, therefore, could no ground for Parliamentary inquiry i tato a transact, .s which was alone a fit subject for a judicial irgeni, -, and respecting whi c h judicial inquiries were now it a state of progress. A simultaneous inquiry in tie .Courts below, and in Parliament, would be a viola tion of every principle-of juaiice. In. all he had its* stated, he was borne out by the opinion cliche Grand Jury of Lancashire,. of . the Lord Lieutenant of Lan cashire, and of th Magistrates of Manchester, n well as many others, which were alluded to in the Papers now before the House ; and all these fan!' proved that no ground had been laid for an inqu:ry. The Noble Earl now came to the subject of prosecu tions for libels, and pointed out numerous tleias which took place in these, in consequence of the power the parties had to put off their trials; and then impressed on the House theindispensible necessity of adopting some measure for bringing men speedily 0 1 'their trials. The measures introduced last night by 'his Noble Friends were so necessary, that the Gnven• meat and Constitution could not exist without the Popular commotion, and the tyranny of mobs w e:e the great evils now to be dreaded: they were the be't friends to liberty who assisted in putting them down. Earl GREY, in explanation, said, he should, 11 4 . th `all the warmth of friendship, subscribe to any pi a:se which the Noble Earl 'could give to his Noble Friend , but be was authorised by the Earl of Derby to dare liss'opinion, that however he may feel that t:le . Nryistrates of Manchester were sincerely impres°e!! wi the necessity of acting as they had done, st . 1 i ther s ' justification was not satisfactory to him ; lea prop, thought an inquiry necessary. ,s, profs saitlEarl Grey, of the sincerity mycic.e ; . p I , • ••• I li"s to pia rie earlier ag e al h at at his a , , s ~ - , 1 the eve. el Le storm re and riught.t ry •e nil, he if the count?, •ti d Constitqt; • re pre szr , !re attained„ nd satisfac-* giving hit !!! Pe noble p r i ezd, ed, that, if,. s had been • ipon it; but 11 points in ' Noble Ma zy , differed wid rquis had a...* ierly to the turing • 1 :round for p ry were to error prev a i r they wer e It atone oat contr(Mll ; :omme: ce :stresses (xi s !. 1 indeed in Eurape. of haviii g le y were in -al conceque z , erce, rf vii'; kind of mu ountry, sia," but it wa s . rears, our cr, in a most 1-,1 • inch was very meat: neans.by ss by o r ag the pooh ameti: to alo iistre.,ses i ark cf the p though;_ endure, cure F' leetings, 'at if men co Ming Chic a alter the Sat r other trea ester had o. military arra inced a Country. . rson of rank e eting, as if! f the Meetiir ers. Did el e rebellions d s the lowest a. neatest stated ul contiscitiota iated that th ncliester M roe presen tt he tieversar and children; ; of the Basalt, red that thee he most active agistrates hal g to the Meei• gistrates cold were marchiu; making a du! which was sa• ce ; and there! ie people to he ssued warrants a and another not put thl d. Tne Yes ce, and the/ hustings; attacked - with was then di their own de- he did ant Tee to blanks a self, he kilo han the Ms n cioi r wac e it , eairra c e o nsatirn u cio ld e:t see t3 l iii ; , nquiry in fre Id be a viols. 11 he had nor ci the Grand enint . of Lair anchester, as led to in the 1 these fal:f m an inquiry. ct of prawn - serous delays iuence of the As; and then e necessity of !is speedily to last night by t the GOVe7a• rithout then!. of mobs we:r were the bet ; them down. should, Irth to any pia:4 Voble Friend, Derby to dc• feel that re ly improved ui done, stil to him ; isare. As a y oc i ; 4 I • I p