Star. — London, England, 1804-05-24 00:00:00

leges of the Boort. In cafe the Lords Ibould ma ke an amendment in a turnpike bill, to lengthen,oo fhorten, or to create exemptions from the turnpike duty, the Houfe would not entertain them, and, as the prefent amendment would go direly to the fame effea, the fame courfe Mould be adopted. He was lure the Houfe would not receive any amendment that would extend the exemptions a fingle day. If the Houfe could not agree to fuch an amendment, then the regular courfe was to rejea the bill . altogether ; for if th e amendment were to be altered by -leaving out the oft of June and reftoring the original date of the 4th of May, the claufe would be impraiticable , that day having elapfed ; and if they were to rejeft the claufe altogether, for the perpofe of fubftituting another to the fame died , or of extendin g the period of exemption to a later date, fuppofe the sfl of July, that would 1)e to adopt the fubtlance of the Lords amendment, and not to adhere to the old ufage of the Hook. He conceived that there could cull! no doubt as to the principle. There were innumerable precedents on the Journals of Bills rejefted on the lame grounds. If this Bill were to be rejefted on this ground, another might be brought in and car ried through the Houle with all poffible (peed. It was certain, that there were many parts of the Bill which a confiderable minority in that Houfe had ob. lofted to, when in its progrefs through the Houfe.— What was the opinion of that refpeetable minority, majority, and un rotgeaer7 itmhtimaced.. Wit bo again difcuffed. 'Though be was not very friendly to the Bill, this was not his motive fur recommend ing this courfe, and he mentioned it only to obviate the objellion that he was aauated by hoftility to parts of the Bill. But fo far from being a reafon againft reconfidering the meaftwe, the probability that the majority would now coincide with the fenuments of the minority on a former occafion,appeared a (Imager ground for reconfidering it. There might be other modes of obviating the dif fi culty fuggetted by Gen tlemen who had turned the &Ilk& in their minds; bat if the Houk &mid rejea the whole, the new Bill might be pared through the Houfe, if poffible. in a tingle they. He had a firong notion that Gentlemen (in allufion to Mr. Pitt), had fume time ago enter. rained fentiments not very favourable to this meagre. At all events, be trotted the Houfe would maintain thole privileges inviolate. which, at all times, good co bad, they bad faithfully adhered to. The, CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought there could be but one fentiment in the Route with regard to an infrallion of its privileges by amendments made in the other Houfe. But this wei pot the ftage in which to confider that topic.— Thu fix queftion in this infiance was, whether the Houk, confiftently with its privileges, could agree to the ossendenenta of the Lords ? and the next, what waive it would be expedient to adopt in cafe it fliould not agree to them? The Committee in its re port, and his Noble Friend (Lord Caftlereagh), had pointed out what amendments the Houfe fhould agree to, and what it ought not. As to that which had been adverted to by the Honourable Gentleman ( Mr. Fox). in his view of it. be could difcover nothing in the amendment, to which they could not, confillently with the privileges of the Honk, agree, and he de tired to nate the ground of that opinion. In all quellions relating to money matters, the Houfe never objeaed to any amendments deligned to carry into as! the &maim of the Route. From the time the took up before it reached the 101 l ftage in the Urds, the original time for making the firil return bad elapfed ; and as it would be, impracticable to make the return at that data. the Lords were under a noceffity of foldituting another date. He con. ceived It to be paisaly competent to the Houfe to ogres to the amendment, or to extend the term 11Ali farther, to the rft of July. But, though that was his opinion, be difelaimed any idea of recommending to agree to the amendment on the ground of conve siesce. If it &mild be thought to trench upon the Owners of the Haute, aid that it was convenient to adopt it in &basset. the amendment might be re jelled in this intimate, and the convenience provided for by a fupplemental Bill. This appeared to him a better mode than that of rejeaing the whole Bill, as bad been recommended by the Hon. Gentleman, be cook the new Bill might lead to lengthened dice of has; and there were certain parts of this Bill which it was of importance to have enaaed into a law with out delay. This was not the Rage in which to debate the snorter, which more properly Iliould be difetored in the Committee. As the Hon. Gentleman had not objeacd to the other amendments, he looked upon it that he felt nu objeaion to them. He :bought, there fore, that the belt courfe would be to proceed to the eonfideration of the amendments one by one, and as the WO contained in it a claufe empowering the Houle to alter or amend it during the prefent Se3ion, any a m e ndments to which the Houfe could not agree in the prefent infiance, might be provided for by z fup plemental Bill. The Right Hon. Gentleman con cluded. by recommending to the Houfe to confider whether it would not be more eligible to fubtlitute the ft of Jolt for the ill of June ? Mr. THOMAS GRENVILLE. raid, he did not find hinifelf difpofed to agree to the plan of palling a Supplementary Bill, upon the prefent occasion. It SAS not a mere matter of convenience that the Houle were difeuffing; the quellimm before them was, whether that amendment was or was not of a nature which immediat.ly and materially entrenched upon their privileges? The elauf:: amended by the I.ords e sled upon the Houfe for an affcrtion and indica t n of their efiabliased and important privileges, which, on fimilar occalions, they had been in the habit of recurring to; he meant the mode fo ufmi. ally ec immered IP, of deferring the confideration of fuch amendments to any lime they might toliik fit ; nit that fuch a plan had been tound in be the moil pratticable or convenient, but be' a , :le the Howe of Commons had found it fo to niair.t.iitt their privilege% untouched. that they looked to their prefers at ion, and he ti tided that they would always be juftly tenacious of them. It wa, a niatiifetl en croachment, to fay that 'scrims (hall be exempt:] from certain taxes up to the illof June, inflead of the Atli of May only ; and the idea of pi mmlonging that time Gill further, by fubllitutiug time sth of July, would have a fimilar effea. and a .:oppl-fmentary Dill would not cure the evil complAiroid or. fle could sot help thinking, that any delay oceafione adopting a different plan, and It : : ".ing the claufe, -outs! nut be a matter much to Le lasso-med. He had all along wished to have a great proportion of the perfons eompofing Volunteer Corps trained as a r e gular force,capable of offing with our regular army. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained. Mr. BRAGGE laid, that as a Member of the Committee, to whom the Bill before the Hook had been referred, he could not help Rating the reafon which had induced them to overlook, in their Re port, the claufe in queftion. The Committee had c onfidered the nature of the amendment thereby made, and they had not thought it neceiary to pro pole any alteration. He apprehended that the point had not been very accurately Rated by the two Hon. Gentlemen who had objefted to the amendment. The queftion was not ab out the exemption, but a bout the time of making the return. The Bill, after pe re• pealing the former laws, proceeds to Rate, that r fons entitled to the exemptions therein contained, mall enjoy them till the Houfe had axed Come par ticular day on which returns were to be made by Commanding Officers. The tuft of May becoming itnpeafticable. the Houfe muff of neceffity have adopted another day; and the next day mentioned was the firlt of Augult. when it became pollible to make a return by the prefent Bill. Various prece. dents might be Rated in rapport of such amendments. In Tax Bills, when the day which the Commons had fixed for the commencement of exaffion had abfo. lately elapfed during the pang of fuch Bill% the Houk of Lords have alWays mentioned another day. which h•• been uniformly actoieiced in. The prin ciple, therefore, as far as privilege was concerned. was precifely the fame in thole as in the precut in Rance. Such were the motives which induced the Committee above ftairs not to ,objeft to such an amen dment by the Lords, and he toped that Gni. far views of the queftion would prevail on the Houfe not to look upon that amendment as any en. croachment on their privileges. Mr. FRANCIS Paid, that the Honourable Gentle man who (poke left, feemed to him to carry the prin ciple a great deal further than what the Houk were bound to admit. It might happen that bona J& a tax granted by the Commons from a certain time might be altered, as to the dates, by the Lords, fo as to prove a furtherance of the original defign ; but it was different in the prefent cafe. It was qnite inconfifient with the privileges of the Houfe to craft the furtherance of their objeas to any other Hoare than their own. Mr. SPEAKER took this opportunity of explain ing his (animate as to the prelim of the Houfe when any amendments were made on money chides. In support of his various obfervations, he Rated se veral precedents illuftrative of both fides of the ar gument, which he had candled from the records of the Houle, in order that they might make what di of them they pleated in difcuffing the prefent queftion. Mr. WINDHAM was of opinion, that the prin ciple on which it was propofed to agree in this ' amendment, did not apply ftrialy, neither was' it conformable to the general praflice of the Houfe ; for though fome inflames were adduced in support l ot it, the inftances on the other fide were much more numerous. He waited the Houle to confider, that when the confiitutional principle as to breaches of privilege was departed from, and deviations were tolerated beeaufe they were in furtherance of the intentions of the Houle, a wide door would be open to inroads on the cuttody of the public purfe, which the Hoare was called upon to defend with jealoufy at iu own peculiar domain. The very word of the intention of the Houle was of wide meaning, and admitted great latitude of confirm. lion. For example, in the prefent, inflance, when the thing which was to be nulled could not take place on the stk of May, the Lords took upon them to fix it on the Soh of June, and this was called furthering the intension of the Houle, which he thought would have been better confulted if the former day were left out, and the Houle left at. liberty to fubftitute fuck other day as it might think convenient, for the Houle may have reafon to adopt a very different provifion. The proper mode would, in his opinion, have been, that the Lords fhould name no day, bit required that a new Bill be brought in, the day named in the firlt having elaitled. On the ground that was now advanced in layout of this amendment, a latitude was given for invasion of the privileges of the Houle, which might become licentious ; for having once counte nanced such a praftice, the Knife aught creep .on from relaxation to relaxation, till the privilege of which it was once fo juilly tenacious was entirely lob. It convenience was nut he urged ag..inft principle, he hoped fubflance would not he urged in .eppolltina to form. He hoped it would not be argued that there was little difference, whether one day was ad pied or the other. But if this fort of argument was once countenanced, the general intention would be always pleaded for the Amid-tomcat of the aria principle. The lAA praftice was a flrift obferrance of the principle, the prefervation of which was a mote important coafideration than either the convenience of palling 'the prefent bill, or the duty of palling a new one. Mt. SHERIDAN would not have rifen, except for fomething that had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman oppolite (Mr. Bathuril). which was not confiflent with his ulual accuracy. 'flit: Right Hon. Gentleman had laid, he could adduce cafes in which dates had been altered in the c ommencement of Tax Bills, while it had been Rated, no doubt, more accurately from the Chair, that in direa Tax Bills, the Houle confideteil any aniesitiment made by the Lords as fatal, and that the lit-tife would be want ing to it (Of if it did not. The. Ri, , ,ht Hon Gentleman had laid, that the Commit:re had adverts.' .in this amendment, but that it WA- not thought right to no tice it as a bet. act: of poi vilsge.asit was in furtherance the intentiot (.1 the Houfe. He did not like this ar gument. Could the Houle of Lords, or even ;he Com mime, be fare that the intentioh a the Houle wasfuch Chen the Right Hon. Gentleman con , ended. that if the Lord. had not made this amendment, the day of ilic fait return elapf4d, no rem:a could be made till the day iised !or the fecund retarn in Au. g uilt. The fAR that there was no mention of fuel' 1 a iccond return in the Bill. Na -nanwasto be rat:lied to the exemptious in virtue • the former - Arts, furtli-r than .he day of the din TOW n, hich was .:s the B. 11; lad palkd the Consro , •ns the sth Slay, asit was ameml• • ed lythc Lord* sth June,and which was pi-clored to be •men Jed by the Right Honourable Gentleman (the Chancellor of 'b.; Es ch,ll- er) to S.h July ha- they claim eo3ld be made till the fecond refl turn fh o nld be made on the s th May, June, or July o lowing, as it lhould be finally fixed in the Bill. He propofed, by way of com p enfation, that the w "fifth' ord fhould be allowed to (land, and that the red of this amendment be omitted; and then that a (up. plementary Bill thould be brought in to fill up the deficiency. By this would be (hewn what the Bill would (late on the face of it, that the cede of this proceeding was a jut attention to the privileges of the Houle. Mr. ISRAGGE BATHURST explained. Lord CASTLEREAGH law no eaufe whatever for rejeaing the claufe or the amendment made in it by the Lords, as in his judgment the amendment did in no degree whatever trench on the privileges of that Houle, but was obvioufiy adopted by the Lords in furtherance of that which was the undoubt ed intention of the Houle of Commons, namely, to prevent any fraudulent exemptions from being thisplea d ed under the Volunteer Bill, to which, without amendment, a wide door would have been left open until the aft of Auguß next. The Houle would at all times have the right and the opportunity of vin dicating and alerting its privileges, without untie. celerity at this moment fazing the opportunity of a weak and trivial quellion, and thereby materially to embarrafs the public fervice. Mr. GREY differed with the Noble Lord's opi nion, that the Houle of Commons would at all times have the power of alerting and vindicating its own privileges. In order that it might belt maintain them, it would not be right to ettablifh a precedent againd thole privileges, by giving way, even in the molt trivial indance, to any authority, however lightly a rnmed by another Houle of Parliament, to interfere with that which this Houle had ever confi deed and maintained to be its tole and exclufive right. The Noble Lord had endeavoured in this cafe to defend the amendment, by dating, it was mate by the Lords in furtherance to the intentions l of this Houle. Such language and loch an erge.l 'meat be held to be molt dangerous and deeeptioue for, if once loch a pretence was admitted, he be glad to know in what Bill it was that the Lords might not plead a fimilar privilege, to overturn everyl right of that Houle, under the alumed pretence of furthering its intentions ? They might thus amend every Money BM fent up by this Houle, and over turn every privilege of the pude, which the Houle had hitherto maintained with the moil scrupulous jealoufy. He could fee no inconvenience whatever likely to arife from the rejeition of the amendment, and letting the chafe Rand a s it ori g inall y did, the sth of May; more efpecially as the Right Honour able Gentleman (Mr. Pitt) had propoTed to intro. duce fpeedily a Ikon Supplementary Aft, in which this, among other deltas of the Bill, might be reme died; and as loch a remedy was fo near,, he few no reafon why it (tumid not be adopted. The queßion being put, that the amendments be read a fecund time, was agreed to. When the Clerk came to read the claufe just now debated, Mr. FOX exprefed his hope. that from what had paled. the Houle would feel the necellity of rejeaing the amendment he had mentioned. The whole of the cafes, fo ably dated from the Chair, were, in his mind, decidedly in favour of the rejeaion ; and more efpecially, the cafe of the Militia Bill, in the year t 757, when the Houle of Lords thought proper to by amendment, the number of the militia voted by the Commons, and alto the film of money voted as the limply for the osigins) number. The Houle of Commons, in that cafe, did not as merely by rejeaing the amendment made by the Lords, but they maintained their own dignity, and vindicated their privileges with becoming (pint. by el:jetting the Bill altogether, and then introducing a new Bill. But, as had been fairly and ably aresed by his . Hon. Friend near him (Mr. Grey,) the molt dangerous of all arguments upon which a jullification could be attempted for fuch an amendment, on the part of the Lords, was that urged by the Noble Lord (Cal tlereagh). that it was done in furtherance of the in• tendons of this Houle. For once only admit that, and the bufinefs of exclufive coatroul on the public purfe would be at an end, and the privilege of taxa tion completely tranfpofcd to the Houle of Lords, who would they be perfealy at liberty to make what alterations they plcaled in the date of commencing, or the period of terminating a tax. Gentlemen had quoted precedents, to thew that fimilar things had been done ; but thole precedents were of very mo dern date, all within the tan nine or ten years. But why not as by ancient precedents in theft times, when the Houle had thewn a molt fcrupulnus and dignified jcalnufy and vigilance towards its privileges? In the courte of this debate, a Right Honourable Gentleman. an experienced Member of Parliament, and one who had himfelf fur a confiderable time pre tided in the Chair of the Committees of Wily, and Means in that Houle. had aliened, as a Precedent. that the Lords Banally had altered the date of ems ment in a Tax Bill, and that the amendment lia-Pheen adopted by this Hoare. without any ob. ;anon. If there was any Inch precedent that could by p.-Eibility have ere -tired the vigilance of this Houle, he 'tithed it now to be read, as the Houle :fluid not be taught lo,reneft ton ftrongly upon a circumflance fo truly , reproachful. to a negligence and inadvertency of which it o u g ht to be fo much ashamed. But if fuch precedents we-i! once admitted to have any authoiity. this Houk might as well give up the bufinefs of taxation at *see, and aban don its claims of pi ivilege as idle matter of form, and take its remedy in a mere rejeCtion of amend mcnts in Money Bills, as well as in all poetic cafes in which it has the fame power of difagveemene from the amendments of the Lords. Mr. PFI'T felt it onnecelary again to go over the ground he bad already argued. lie mutt be widely millinderftood by say Gentleman who fuppofed him to argue generally that a view of acing in further• ante to the willies of that Houk would, in all cafes. 'pally the alterations made by the other Houle of Pailiament in Dias tent up by this Houle. Money Bills as well as others. He ufed the argument fpe ciallv, and in relation only to the precise cafe bet - . tre the and cafes of a (miler kind, and by r.i means in relation to Money Bills, GT any othrr in an amendment could be even for a moment fop poled to cnmpromtfe a tittle of the privilege. of this Honk. Brit the principle did not hold faflidioully to every pollible alteration thpt might be made even in a Money Bill, but applied only to fuch cafes thole where the obvious intentions of the Houle Commons were c ontravened. But conceiving the amendment in the prefent cafe to have been made Niel? with the intention of furthering the objeas of this Houfe, and not cf contravening f its ob jeas or privileges, he felt no necetlity whatever or rejelling the amendment, to far as leaving out the words r , sth of May," with a view, however, to • amend the date, adopted by the Lords, to the IR of July, which he moved, and which was agreed to. Mr. WHITBREAD rofe, and in allufion to cer tain claufes in the Bill refpeaing . Mallets and Ser vants, inferted originally at his maance, bat omit. ted by the Lords, exprefed a with that they never had been introduced. He wilted. however, to know if it was the intention of his Majefty's Knitters to revive any claufe upon this &Neel, becaufe if nct, he &odd feel it his duty to make a fpecifie motion, for enquiry in that Houle, refptaing the condo& of the Lord Advocate of Scotland, which, if he were correaly informed, had been extremely opptelkve, unjue, and illegal. Mr. PITT requeßed the Hon. Member to Rate die circumftences to which he alluded. Mr. WHITBREAD Laid, that he had a letter in his pocket from the Shire of Banff, in Scotland, Rating, that a refpettable man there, named Mor rifon, had a fervent, who, without his permitfion. or at all cenfulting him, had entered into a Corps of Volunteers. Mr. Morrifon bad in confeqnence dit charged the man from his fervice., The man applied to the Lord Advocate to know what legal rcdrefs he intd - nattill his matter and .though the Lord Ad vocate gave it as his rawer. that the fervent had no legal rerlrefs, yet he wrote to the Deputy Sheriff of Banff, Rating that Mr. Morrifon's condua proceeded from dilloyal and difaffeaed principles ; enjoined him, as - far as lay in his power. to prevent the peo ple of Banff from holding any intercourfe with Mr. Morrifon ; inftruaing him, that if an enemy Imola land in that part of the country, to make Mr. Mor. rifon a clofe prifoner, and adding, that if. in the event of an enemy landing, any part of Mr. Morri ton's property &cold be dettroyed, either by the ene my, or the King's troops to keep it out of the toe ' my's hand, he would.take care Mr. Morrifon &odd ' have no compenfation. - This was, he apprehended. illegal. and. deferred the animadverfron of the Haute. No amply was made to this Ratement. Lord CASTLEREAGH then moved the ap i pointment of a Committee of En q uir y to explain to r a Committee of the Lords. the reafons for rejeaing c e rtain amendments. —Adjourned. the met with the fired to quelliotti obitaed alk do IDat tool Lords. 1 bad elai =lake di a need ceired ir e " lad fort lie opio to Mir° aims. Ptivi to ado, jetted ii Tot by better bad be eaore t has; t it was oat del the m la the objeac that It fore, I eonfid the Di to alu amen< the pr pleme cluda what] It of MT find h a Sul It a: Houl whet] =whit] C lie t whit brbi ally fuch mt Fr& Con /Iris peel be j trot frog slb tap wen Dill sot ada woi LONDON. THURSDAY. MAY se. PRICE Of STOW THIS DAY AT ONE O'CLOCK Coifed, ter Judy 561...Redeeed 55* Ozonises reereey, .pressme.ititte. tor Jane. 4 91 4 PRICE OF STOCKS YESTERDAY Raab Steck is iss* Media reock 174 t7s 3 per Cent. Red. 55t55* oidle Sods, 3 per C. Cool Sot dap. 3. per Cenc 4 per Cott isfif Milt 5 per Cent. per Coo. Navy 3411 Erehot MM. 3e. 5 P 4 r Cog. 1797 93 Conf. er ate. s' Ans. a 6 7-a Onuthava 4 sf 4 pros. Difpatches have been received at the India Honfe. which Rate, that the fquadrea under Admiral LINO'S had attacked Fort Marlborough (late Bence*len). in the Ifland of Sumatra, dearnyed the Roves, and done much other damage, the extent of which was not known. Private letters, however. received by the fame eammlalsce, add, that Admiral Llama hat setually taken the fettlement. with an EDO& frigate, which, was lying in the hatbour. It is with concern we find ourfelves obliged to incline to the latter ac count, as other difpatches. fuppored to relate to the fathe fubjea, were received at the fame time at the India Bottle, the contents of which have not beta made public. Had they been favourable, it is pro- bable they would have tranfpired. The firfi men tioned difpatches were forwarded by our Arobafradoe at Liam. who had received them from the Govern ment of St. Helena, at which ifland a Portnguefe ' Indiaman had touched, and communicated the above intelligence. The Indiaman was not, however, the only authority. We underfiand that *deices to the fame effeet were received by the Government of St. Helena from other quarters. Letters from Captain PLISIDIRS, at the Mauritius, alfo announce the lofs of his Majeßy's armed veffel the PORPOISE. We announced yeflerday the arrival cf a Lifbon Mail, and laid before our Readers fuch articles from Spain and Gibraltar, received by that conveyance, as feemed deferving of notice. We have [lace had an opportunity of feting letters of later dates than thofe we noticed yellerday. The Gibraltar Newfpaper of the 28th of April fays—" It is certain that a divifion of the Toulon fleet, confiaing of fi ve (hips of the line, nod three frigates, has been out for a few days; hut, on being chaced by our fquadron, they returned to Toulon Roads, within a (hors ditlance of which, the AMA• zos frigate took one of their merchant brigs. It is mentioned that before the capture took place, a French Mgate. and three or four fail of the line, foccelifively came out to her aflame. They withdrew, howe. var. on being met by an equal number of ours, and left the brig to her fate." • Letters of the fame date from the garrifon Rate, that the divifion of the Toulon fleet above alluded to, never ventured above a few leagues from the hap. boor, though they might eafily have made their ef cape, had fuels been their defign, is our fleet was hear the Wand of Sardinia at the time when the ' Fiends velfeh bra came out. The 441 , r110N Laih.i from Gibraltar on the 22d ult. with a convoy for L fbon and England, but re turned nest morning, o•• ing to •he rin.l cominc Letters from Cadiz of the 26th ult. Ilate a cireom aitnce, couch cozht net to be paired over in ['thrice And ye vented point t mon react I Pe' penc A thit Ruff ofd immix iepa T One 1 of it lowi A tai Stitt Sea II y l 114 G It fc it a 6 • f( a s U n a 0 a tj It il Pe r LO tha Fl: rifi N, Lc.