Star. — London, England, 1819-02-02 00:00:00

I~ F' F it' , r P. Z 4er %, 1 i, PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. OUSE OP LORDS, FEBRUARY 1. Counsel were Soapy heard respecting the Scots cause of" Va. naldson r. Stuart," and pArtly on that ut " Crawfurd v. &Oleic." To proceed again no Wednysday. The Earl of SraaTutioaz (as Lord Bowers, Viscount Um. room, and lord LTNEDOCkI, took the oaths and their seats. On the motion of the Earl of LAUDERDA LE, Accounts beere ordered to be laid before the House, respecting the num r of prosecutions, convictions, &c. for forgeries upon the Bank of England, since the ist of January, 1798, to the close of last year; and also, (-Alain ALc.ounte-respecting the Coinages at the Mint, within a given period. v 't :C. BANK OF EN'C;LASD. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, that seeing' a Noble Earl in his place, he took the opportunity to inquire whether he intended to bring forward the motion respecting the Batik of England to-morrow, of which he had given notice : and if so, in what terms he meant to propose it, and what the object of the motion was ? The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, he had no objec tion to give the desired information. With respect, to the 'precise terms or wording of the motion, he Could not now state; but its general sense or effect would be, for a Secret Committee to inquire into the actual situation of the Bank of England, more espe cially with respect to the expediency of a resump tion of cash payments at the time now fixed by law ; and also to other matters connected therewith : mean ing that the in q uiry should be an extensive one, but which he thought would be left to. be expressed by general words, and. which would. also embrace cer tain points which a Noble Lord opposite had brought forward for discussion in that House., CEiSION OF CERTAIN DUTCH COLONIES. The Order for summoning their Lordships tieing mad, The Marquis of LANSDOWNE rose to bring for ward his noticed motion on this subject. What he meant to require, he observed, were Copies of In structions forwarded to the British Governors in In dia, relative to the Cession of certain Dutch Colo nies in that quarter ; but more especially to Sir Tho znas Raffles, Lieutenant-Governor of Fort Marlbo rough. Whit he had to direct the attention of their Lordships to in this discussion, referred not only to questions of great national policy, but to considera tions of great importance, as affecting the honour and character of the British Government. He par ticularly referred - to certain circumstances connected with the Cession of the Island of Java. In 151 1, an expedition had been sent by the Earl of Minto, then at the head of the Government in India, with a view -to the capture of the important Dutch Settlement of Java. This operation was eminently successful, as it shortly proved that the capture was of still greater importance than it was at first held to be. In the . • course of a few years, its prosperity increased in a ..Areater degree than perhaps any other colony in the ,: tame interval. Its government had been entrusted to Sir Thomas Raffles. The population and 'prospe frty Of the interior was soon found to be much.gi eater than had been expected. The former amounted to between four and five millions of inhabitants, some of whom were lung under the dominion of indepen dent Princes, with whom beneficial connections were formed ; yet, when the island was surrendered to the Dutch at the general peace, no stipulation had been made for the execution of those Treaties which we had formed with these independent Powers—Trea ties, to which he must consider the faith and honour of the British Government as pledged. He particu larly referred to the Island of Banca, which Was . I made over by Treaty to the British by its ancient • Sovereign, the Sultaun of Palangam. Under that, Treaty we obtained possession of it, and the . acqui ! sition proved to be of considerable importance ; yet, not very long after, all these possessions were surren dered to the Dutch. Those they held in 180.3 were expressly stipulated for restoration by Treaty: but the Island of Banca did not come under that de scription, and, in his view of it, the surrender had been ma de in wanton disregard of the Treaty by which it came into our possession. It was surren• dered by a separate article for the Dutch Settlement of Cochin, and on the under:.:ood pretext of its hay g been a mere military occupation. 'I:• romost• strances which were made no .he ground of its hav ing been transferred to us by a Native Sovereign *ere disregarded, anti the express letter of the sub sequent Treaty was referred to as fully warranting the cession : and those remonstrances were afterwards even made a pretext by the Dutch for attacking the Sultaun of Palangam. The attempts made by Sir Thomas Raffles for procuring that Sovereign those benefits to which he was entitled by Treaty were in effectual. Thus, the honour of this country was com promised, independently of the obvious impolicy of the cession : , Such considerations must have an in jurious effect upon the British character, in the event of similar situations occurring, and the case fur nished, in his mind, an adequate ground for Parlia mentary investigation as to the real merits of the clue. Ile therefore felt it his duty thus to come for ward, and to call for a communication of the In structions birwarded to the Governors of Java, and other East Indian Colonies ceded by the Dutch ; and also fur the Instructions sent to Sir Thomas Raffles, on the oct.asion to which he particularly referred. The Noble Marquis having moved to this effect— and on the question being put, • Earl BATHURST observed, that if the Instruc tions alluded to by the Noble Marquis were those for the purpose of carrying into execution the Treaties dgreed upon hetweea the two Powers, he taw no oh- - jection to theh. being communicated ;. but the nature and effect of the::e Treaties shotild.he attentively con sidered. There were rnore Treaties than one : some provided for the restitution of wliatever Colonies were taken from the Dutch ; another, for the cession of the Island of Banca ; and the Governor General of India transmitted instructions to those acting un • der him for carrying such Treaties into effect. _But if it were meant; tti;tt suCh . C9minnnications as had . • . taken place between the Governor:General . arid the LieUtenant.Governor of kort Marlborotigh,iand sent %to:this ciuntryi Should .be laid 'before the House, he should feel *.his duty' to object to theiroduction.— The whole of these•ltapers contained a great variety of matter,:. and pints iif:diseusiipn, which were so circumsturicedi , u 4 b Was - - sate the noble Marquis himself would dila . ..they:lk= not fit to lay before, the House. It could net be Conceived to have been' the duty of the British..Geverqrurt to giveohstruc— tions to the execyti 9 u auddelkette4a l ties. 'lf akerid In radta, the Dutel vernment here would not doom its obliged to ac cede to such alterations. . Our Governors had .no ht to insist upon such alteration. The British Gp-; vWnintiiit had never declared an intention to . retari Javia it the . end .of the war. The surrender of Banca, upon which the Noble Marquis laid so much stress, was in fact .a complete exchange : we got for it the viihiable'settlement of Cochin. It was under taken that all places taken from them should be re stored ; - and it was made ap express condition after wards, that Banca should be given so them for Co- chin, in full sovereignty. The Dutch Government had an establishment in that island ; they had made a regular settlement there ; and an expedition had been sent to take possession of it by the Governor of Java. The-Sultaun 'of Palangam had given up his right, whatever it was, to it, and in return he was acknowledged an independent Sovereign. The ques tion was; whether, .in fact, the Dutch G o v ernmen t had a right to all those establishments which they held in 1803 ? and the -argument, that we had no right to look to' it, was a Subject an discussion between the two Governments. With respect to Sir Thomas Raffles, he was Lieutenant . Governor of Java. There were charges brought against him, but of these he had been fully and honourably acquitted. He was sent back to Bencoolen; but, though he was recognized as a Lieutenant Governor, yet, as he went as a Resident, he was considered by some, or felt himself, a degraded character, arid in consequence was appointid Lieutenant Governor of another place; but he was given to understand that his powers were not thereby increased, and that he was to be consi dered as a Commercial Resident. Doubts were en tertained as to his power to give an official character to some of the points adverted to. Under all these circumstances ; he thought it better not to adopt the motion, at least in its present shape. Lord HOLLAND contended that the objections advanced by the Noble Earl did not do away those important grounds upon which his Noble Friend's motion rested. The transactions respecting Java mid its dependencies, were of a nature that required the :serious, consideration of Parliament ; and he thought the Noble Earl must have taken an erroneous view of his Noble Friend's arguments, to come to the conclu sion he had formed. For his part, he deprecated the impolicy of abandoning those Princes with whom we .formed Treaties. The. national honour and character were involved in the.question; and it may be matter'' of serious consideration whether certain secret articles did not exist in the Treaties. The whole formed a case proper for the attention of Parliament, and the Noble Earl himself stated, that some negociations were still going on between us and the Power in qiies tion. He trusted that points which affected so deeply the intere-t of the country and the honour of the na tion. would not be trifled with. In these views of the question, trilm,his Noble Ft lend agreed to alter or amend his motion, he would vote for it as novi `before the House. _ Earl BATHURST spoke shortly in explanation. He adverted to the mode in which Banca came into the possession.of the British, and to the return which had been made for it ; and seemed to admit, that in some points of view, the case was one which had; called for inquiry. Lord HOLLAND explained, that 'he , understood the Island of Banca was given to . us by the Sultaun of Mangum, in return for our acknowledging him an independent Sovereign. The Earl bf LIVERPOOL was of opinion that one of the principal papers called for was not, property speaking, an official documert, but one which the party had no right cr authority to make. Neither could it he laid beftre this llc-useas such. The points still in discussion were not such as had been abso lutely decided upon between this country and the King of the Netherlands, but upon points which may 'be regarded as conditional, arid his Noble Friend's meaning in-what he stated went au farther. 'He must deprecate theexposition of -any documents which went to affect such a state of things. The sove reignty of territories was not conferred by their ac tual occupation by a conquering Power ; unless they were actually ceded by the conquered Power at the conclusion of a peace, their possession in the interval must 'oe regarded as a temporary possession, or as a military occupation. Under these catisiderations, different conciusions were sometimes drawn by those concerned. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE spoke at some length in explanation, and seemed to sayithough his views of the real meriti Of the case were very little, if at all, changed by what the Noble Earls had ad. vaned—yet as it appeared to be admitted that some negociations were still going on between the two Go vernments concerned ; and ac he still conceived some benefit may result from his thus coming forward, he was inclined to shape or new model his motion, so as to do away those objections by which the N oble Earli appeared to be most strongly actuated. The motion was then, in the course of a few words, interchanged across the table, so altered by the Noble Marquis, in a way which principally seemed to re spect what had been called for relative to ceding the Island of Banca, and the omission of Sir Thomas Rafflees protest. The question being put, the modi fied motion was agreed to by their Lordships. Adjourned till to-morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS. About thirty new Members took the oaths arkd their seats. Many _Petitions and Bills of a private nature, for Roads, In closures, ,Itc. were presented. Mr. WAITHMAN presented a Petition from Bishop Bur-. net; son of Jan Burnet, Esq. late of Lambeth, Surrey, praying for an Amendment of the present Acts relative to Frauds, ke. in the measurement of Coals. Orliered to lie on the table. Mr.UILAY reported from . the Committee appointed to take into conekleration a plan for the better supplying Glasgow with Water, by an Improvement in their Water Works. Or dered, that leave be given to bring in a Bill ; and chat Mr. Fm lay and odiere.do prepare and bring in the !lame. • 'Mr. HOLMES presented a Petition from Newpert , prayi ng for a l i Z t i on of the Penal Code, and lessenin g the frequency ci`the mint of Death.—Ortlrred to lie on the t a bl e . Sir . GRAHAM-presented a Petition from the Inhabhants of Cariiale, praying for pennisalon to have it lighterl.with Gas. An Amount was ardent:lto he laid before the House of the Import sand Export of Tin carried coast and otherways. Lord A. HAMILTON gave notice, that to-morrow fort night be would subMit to the House a motion respecting the in.. ternal government of the Borough of Aberdeen. CARE.OF MIS MAJWITif i II PERSON. By a Message from the Lords, intimation was made, tint their ,Lordships had agreed to, and passed a Bill for the Care of. his Majesty's Person, in . consequence of, the &wise of the 4ueen ; and.expressing their hopes that the Commons would concur in passing the same into a law. The Bill was received, sad, ad 4*W to be .taken alto farther consideratim. RANK NOTE!. Amokly to orders, au Account was presented from the Al of England of the Averk;e Weekly Amowtt of Ralik tes 'Aligned, dtficribing . the varioas, classes, &c.44)edered to be "tinted: Dir.•GREN FELL hoped that the Right /to:nimble Gem ttemanopposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) *mid con to the postponement of the PriiAng of this *Account for two or tkree days, in order that Gentlemen might in the M.2:41 time ticantine it, and snake ep their minds on the st.bjcct. It Was well known that, if it were now sent to the Printers, some days must elapso before its return to the Rotas; consequently in that time might be said to be lost ; and thus an intarrty: ion of business would be experienced, which might be prevented by the proposition now offered. The CHANCELLOR or the F.XCIfEQUER having readily consented to.the Honourable Member's propu-al, the Account was ordered to lie on the table ; ii being understood, that in the course of two or three days it should be printed for the use of the House. RECOVERY OF SMALL DEBTS • The Simms of LONDON a and Minmsaca pressured Petition from the Lord Mayor, Alderinen, and Coninvm Council of the City of London, praying for an -Amendment of the Law us It now stood respecting the Recovery of Small Debt.. The Peti tion was read, and leave given to bring in a BttL NEW PRISON, LONDON'. . The same Sheriffs again. appeared at the Bar of the House, and presented a Petition from the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Corporation of the City of, London,. praying for leave to appropriate a certain portion of the Unclaimed Dividends of the Orphan Fund, towards the liquidation of the expenses attend ing the New Prison. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN observed, that it might be of cornsiderable•importance that the Mem bers for Southwark should become acqiiainted with the entire nature. and bearings of this Bill ; and he , therefore begged leave to Move—" That the Petitiun be•laid on the table." Mr. HOLME SUMNER, recollecting a Motion which he had the honour of making last Sesrion of Parliament for an account of the City of London Revenue, could not help expressing his surprise that this Corporation should now come to Parliament for pecuniary aid,. before it complied 'with the orders of the House for the account alluded to. It would have been much more consistent with propriety, to have first satisfied the House on the extent and application of the funds now possessed by the City of London, than to have made this precipitate demand in aid of their circumstances. It was well known that the City of London had acted with uncommon shyness ; indeed, they had. treated . the Orders of the House with unaccountable, perhaps culpable, silence. After a lapse of two months, no answer had been given ; and then such an answer had been received as was by no means. satisfactory. The House ought, there fore, now to be completely of opinion, that the re quired aid should not be grunted till it received a full explan:aiorl of the extent and application of the present Funds of the City of London. Mr. Alderman WAITIIMAN observed, that as he was not a Member of the last Parliament, he 'hoped the Honourable Member would not attribute to him any of the omissipns or inattentions of which he now complained. The Honourable Alderman did not wish to go into a discuision of the subject at the present moment. He had not taken any part in the affair, either at the time alluded to, or at that now , under the consideration of the House. But he was fully warranted in saying, that the City of London had been; and were now, ready to satisfy the House regarding their Funds. He now took the opportu nity of remarking, that as the City of London not ,only supported their own prisons, but often also die: .prison's of the county of Middlesex, they were thero. fore,irery fairly and, fully entitled to apply tb'Parliz? want for pecuniary aid on such an emergency. Mr. SerjeanPONSLOW said, that the statements which were ordered by the House ought to have .been long since presented. It . the Corporation or the City -of London had merely called for a local ACt, perhaps his objections to its being granted might not have been Jo strong. But when the Members of that Body called for an Act that, affected the inte rests of many Counties, merely because they sup ported more prisoners than they were bound to do, be should certainly give it his decisive negative. If the Corporation supported •more prisons than they were strictly bound to do, there were, he doubted not, corresponding advantages which resulted from the exercise of so much generosity. He would op pose the prayer of the Petition, until a satisfactory account of its funds was laid before, the house. The Petition was then' ordered to lie on the table. MOCK AUCTIONGe: The Sheriffs appeared • againittlAhe Bar of the frobse, and presented another Petition from the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, aid Common Connell; of the City .dilLerndon; praying for some law to suppress or prohibit all Mock Auctions, now arrived to such an intolerable public nuisance, as well as public im position and delinquency. Mr: Alderman WAITIIMAN thought this Peti tion contained grounds of complaint of the first pub lic importance. lie was aware, that from its pecu liar nature it ought, as a preliminary step, to receive the concurrence of his Majesty's .Ministers. If it were thought by them a matter of such general utility as he had described, he was not afraid of their consent. He would therefore, for the present, here propose, that the Petition should lie on the table: and on a future day he would move fur the appointment of a committee of Inquiry. .Ordered that the Petition do lie on the table. INSOLVENT DEBTORS. A tptition from the Coryoration of London, pray ing that the Ilonse would not allow the renewal of t the Insolvent Debtors Act, was presented at the ltar, by the Sheriffs. • Mr."WAITHMA,N.said, - th at this subject was not inferior in iMpoltance to any which had come this Session before the House, not excepting even the subject of the criminal laws. The City of London, he could say from personal observation, was distin guished for humanity, and disposed to give every as sistapce to persons in" distress ; but it could not view this Act as either humane or salutary. Whatever' might have been the intention of the Act, its effect was to break down the fair trader, to encourage vice, and to give a deadly blow to commercial confidence —(Hear, hear).—lt even affected the Constitution it self; for it had superseded the trial by Jury, and in troduced the authority of one individual, who deci ded upon more property.than all the Judges together. He was aware that returns of the number of debtors, their debts, and their dividends bad been at several times laid' behire the house, but those facts might have escaped the recollection of Members, lie sladd,. ,perhaps, astonish the House by reading to i nt statement which was equally accessible to - others as to him. During the first three ye ;irs of Act, that was, down to March 8, 1815, the amounted to Et3,030,(YJ0, and the dividends t o farthing in the pound!—(ietzr, hear).-1; was supposed that this was through the carelessne:s creditors themselves, and the law was 2tldluied meet this evil ; but from March 8, 1816, to NI, 1, 1817, the number of debtors WIS 91r4, a n d amount of their debts nearly 0,000,000. stated the eividend in the former case to be one, thing ; he ought to have stated it the. fan?' ter o f farthing. The efTect then of the amendrnext that it raised this ,dividehl to a halfpenny. then was the e,lorinous sum of 1.3.5,(190,006.... i , huger than the amount of the property-tax_ in the course of five years from the pmperty of Most labot ions, the most industrious, the mostl and the most moral of his Majesty's subj (Hear, /tear).—The habits, *the morals, th e conduct of the fair trader were more virtuous, chaste, than either those of - the needy and dir who'were driven by necessity into misconduct, those of the affluent, who felt not, and often di: garded the value of an establithed character for: tendon and fidelity—(hear, hear).—lie objecte,ll this Act, not merely en thc part of traders, beta! on the part of debtors themselves. All ins o h debtors, whatever 'might have been the distinction their conduct, were tressed alike—the most her, and unfortunate as the most proftigate--ifk or ' I He could appeal to the Honourable and Le, Gentleman (Mr. Serse.mt Onslow) who had from him on ano::,-.r sobject, and ask him, whet' be had not ob, Tved, in his official ch tracter, creditors wore always most lenient to delztorsv had honestly become insolvent? On this point was sure of the Honourable and Learred Meml concurrence. When so much property was without leaving any dividend, it was not possible suppose the conduct of debtors honest. If an lir man, who traded with £lO,OOO of borrowed meat found that the half of it was gone , wou ld h e s i call together his creditors, and give them what mained ? Most of the insolvencres were occasio by profligate debtor; who left to their creditor: resource but to fbllow them to plison. He held pap in his hand, which he had received from bberiff's c fivers. whom debtors had of themselves a.l!ted to ai company them to prison—(hear, hear, hear).-11 sum in each case was trifling, but the amoura of 11 whole was 4215;000. He was sorry to hare so 1. obtruded himself on the attention of the How (Hear, hear).—He should now more that the rion be laid on the table ; after which he should for some returns, similar to former returns on same subject. Mr. LITTLE'CON so fully concurred with Worthy AlJorniam that he co.ild not refrain fn expressing his opinion. 'The motives of those w had introduced the measure might have been j 1 and humane. The prevention of long impris was evidently a principal object with them; but, Act was productive of. more injustice to the cre,iitc than justice-to the debtor. • 311 BROUGHAM agreed with his Honourabl Friend, the worthy Alderman, and with the Honou able - Crestleman on the other side of the House, t she subject was of the highest importance. The that decided upon such immense property was important to the commercial part of the commas,. lint he would not now anticipate observations would be more suitable when the subject shoe' _ . fully discussed—(Hear, hear.) He thought i: to fair, that the statements of the Honoutzli.! Member should come before the House and gofon'. to the country, without protesting against those t2t , meats, or rather against onepoint of view in the statements were made to appear. The worth) Alderman had objected to the Act, not by eompu ing the state of r ungs after the Act had passed whatit had been before that period, but by contp;, ing it with an ideal state of things which had neve existed—(Hear, hear, hear.) The Bill—it had Ix , Lord Redesdale's Bill, and had been sent to EL House front the Lords—had been intended to di7 nish, and if posible prevent, the evils %Ali& now ns . criLed to it. It might be objected to in tea points, and perhap, improved. There. was one stance in his honourable hiend's statement of easy it was to excite a clamour against an Act, though he certainly imputed no such motive to worthy Alderman. The worthy Alderman had: that 1:15,000,600, a punt larger than the ;name , had been taken frotn the honed dealers; and left to be infetred, that this had been done by the hue vent Act ; b:a he would tat that but for that the creditors would not 'have got even the di; it cf a farthing in the pound. The Petition was ordered to be laid on the table. Mr. WAITHMAN moved for a Return of tk! Number of Insolvent Debtors discharged up to Ist of February, 1819, their Debts and their Div dends.—Ordered. Mr. COURTENAY moved Or the Rerun of :* ;slumber of those remanded up to the same pa and the 'grounds on which they had been remaa,:.e. Ordered. wicsmaiNsTat HUSTINGS BILL. Mr. COURTENAY presented the Report of 11 Committee upon the Westminster Hustings moved that the same be read to•m:orrow. _ Mr. HUME boiled that the Honourable Men' ' would not press the reading of the Bill, for he cr• ceived-there were some circumstances that demarAka inquiry. He expected to have several Petition! present on the subject, and he believed he shoui , :' . • able to prove that there • existed ample funds v." 7 which the expense; of the Elections ought to bel"' The nature of the Bill now endeavoured to be tied through the House was hostile to the princir ls of the British Constitution, and by which the CiLY Westminster was rendered totally different from an" other place in the United Kingdom. Upon a :tog. occasion, one of the three candidates had been ged £9OO as his proportion of die expenses, according to this Bill, would be a fine unposed 11 1', every candidate who should offer for that City. is believed the Dean and Chtpter of Westminster , '7 . der whont the Bailiff acted, possessed ample f••••-t. which should be' appropriated to this purPose• r therefore hoped that before the Bill WIS passe) would be referred to a Coniroittix for further tuqiD The Hon. GREY RENNET said, that in 18IS • Bill, which was• now on the eve of expiri ng. PI! the m •:o nI rn 1 3 of t'," he d e b. Is to rr .11 was lb, e ssne,, to ended • w 3f a on and ft: E one fa; er, c( lezt _ II re of a tt!• s'.ll3r, b Jl,jec t e to svE, m. istres s . iduct, .en di:. fo for Ato eetej . dal bvt 4 3 insolvel .se! nctioo t ho rn s ar, / 12 , if Learted e e -se . whethe r 'ter , - ill tors ‘.ll lc 1 pcir.: ee r. 1 emi• • vet as , se r. 1 to Lent, rt I meat? i he n: fe what t. :casio-A e a ditors n id pope cal eriff's ase e& to az fur e Irit oft shi so lc r. House heP c , 11,1 m ld is on t• le on with . at tin fr,m 1)1 tow who ht cen jai, e a isomers lo ; but fee na cre.:itc; It iev nurable Honour we use, 6c - The la , r. ras sentinity 1. ns L e be it 03).. tiOtirSe go fort' )Se q.nt .0 in Rte'! •Y CO?mrr wl sed vich comp • id nese rad Vet Ir to that ai to dimi• eh were .n in tuany one u• 1( of hv Act, a:. Yi to the *1 had si It menu. , left • ze Inie tl hat AG, c c t. thin. of : 1 3 ;e ) to 6.: Divi• of periel it of lie: 1 he cry • mandol tion , be rA.- be rr incip s ; City on) 3 0. t reel 3:1 ed ur , ter 1 1 -• • e se. asset iugJi e i b~ ~ ,tl4