Star. — London, England, 1816-05-22 00:00:00

r • 1 I :. -. , ~. is shot out—so also tire military' profession there is nprn to the Cacholles to a cenain extent, while here, if_a Cat h olic wishes to enter the army, he rifest first Xross gt.,George's Channel, he must obtain 'a COM• Mission make Irien'establishment, and then be .be . cornes=ilto AA to th e rank of Colonel. What sense,i such in anomaly ? And what seine thertsin the testriction which prevents even an Irish Catheilic or an English, Catholic obtaining a Commis :iion (nether Irish Establishment, from rising above the rank of Colonel t The whole army is under the • controul of a Protestant Parliament anctis Protestant Monarch. In Ireland, where the Army is entirely Catholic,, several regiments may be combined at the discretion of the Crown,-and the Officer cernmand .• iag them being only. a Colonel, may be a Catholic. A Colonel on the Staff may also beta Catholic—and yet there are persons who continue to think that it tins Colonel were advanced a step, if he were made a General, the whole state and safety of the country would be hazarded. Sir, these are disgraceful and dangerous blemishes in otir Constitution. Their only tendency is materially to diminish our national strargth. We have now terminated the severe, struggle in which we wereso long engaged, we are at leisure to adjust and regulate oar domestic linea l revs, and I trust we shall revise and , erase this code of weak and injurious policy. I hold in my hand a Petition, the nature of which I have described, froln persons whose characters are as well known as they are irreproachable. There lies on your table a Peti tion presented by my Right Honourable Friend from he great body of Catholics in Ireland, from men eminent for their lOyalty, from men of large property and extensive influence, who have couched their ap • plication to this House in terms that cannot fail to make a favourable impression, echo have urged their claims with a temper calculated to insure their attain snent—(Hear, Aear).—Sir, I trust that Parliament will not I,e turned•aside from the consideration of the wishes of these retitioners by that irritatioti which has been here and there manifested on the subject in treland—that they will not be deterred from doing justice by any seditious passages in pamphlets, or - false statements in newspapers, or intemperate ex pressions in speeches made under the' influence of warm feelings, or in some cases, perhaps, by persons actuated by a wish to obstrUct, for their own pur poses, the attainment of the object for which they professed to be solicitous—(Hcar, hear.) —.This at least I hope will be considered—that in our present position we cannot remain. Backward or forward we must go. There are boe three courses of policy possible to recommend with respect to this subject.— The first, which I presume no person here is dis posed to advise, is to retread our steps, to re-enact the penal laws which. we have abrogated, to deprive the Irish Catholic of his 'prbperty, of his education, of his religion, tO grind him ivith the full weight of tyrannical power. The "recat which appeais to me quite as impracticable and visionary, is to stay where we are, and to close the question. To close the question, Sir, you may as well talk of stopping the tides„or teaisting e the laws of gravitation or interfering with effect in any other of the great operations ,of nature—Vicar, hear, /sear.) Is it possible that any one can imagine that when you have raised ti man in the rank and estimation of society—when you have, given him property—when you have contented upon him rights—when you have opened to him (to a cer tain extent at least) prospects which be never before enjoyed—is it possible to imagine that a man, feel ing the spirit of emulation which PXOVIDUICE has wisely implanted in the breast of every human being, for the benefit of the community —is it possible to imagine that he could be induced tamely to relin quish the advantages which he has obtained 1— (1-lesr, hear, hear.) If so unnatural an apathy were to be exhibited, it would indicate a most disordered state of the human faculties. There is yet to be considered a third course of policy to go on. The two great objections to 'archer concessions no longer exist. The one was the temporal power of the Pope. Of that who now entertains any apprehension ? The other was the danger of a disputed succession. That died with the Pretender. And as to guards, have we'not them in abundance I—Have we not a Protes tant Crown and a Protestant Succession I—Have we not a Protestant House of Lords and a Protestant House of Commons—secure from all risk of Catho lic influence I—Are not the great, bulwarks of our establishment unassailable ? Is not our venerable Church defended by a Clergy powerful in their.ta lents, powerful in their education, powerful in those family connexions by which they are attachedto all that is respectable its the empire ? Weigh the remote and contingent danger which some persons appre hend from concessions to the Catholics, with the pa this.- and immediate danger which must result from rejecting their claims—with that ferment which will be at work in the .very heart of the country—with that fever which will prey upon your very vitals, dis turbing and destroying all the fu.ictions of the State; aad when you have done this can you hesitate or ba lance between the two courses of proceeding ?—(l4ear, hear, hear.) Sir, in saying this, I beg leave again to guard myself from being supposed to i mply that it the measure of Catholic Emancipation were adopted, sudden and complete trantanillity 'Would be the con sequence. - But this we know—tbat the refusal of the Catholic claims is at present a great source of agitation. 'lt is not, therefore, irrational to expect, that if we remove a great pact Of the Muse of the existing evil, a great part of, that evil will cease to oust. Much, Sir, in human affairs and in human policy, depends on the choice of the moment its which any step of consequence is taken. We have already lost many precious opportunities of setting at rest this important question. We lost the oppor tunity,-which I shall ever regret, of doing so at the Uninte Another opportunity now presents itself.— AVe have arrived at the termination of along and arduous contest—a contest which I have ever consi dered, and which I shall ever consider b to have been wise and necessary. During its ,continuance great sacrifices have been Made by every class of the com munity. Sir, it is not my own opinion only—it has been the opinion of a great majority of this, and of ' former Houses of Parliamentit has been the opinion of a great majority of the public—it has been the' opinitra of the great body of the cc-Onion:l44rib; lishment of the country, that in the lace severe and protracted coaterst- - -4 contest, not for renown, but tot 1 Independence and sec,nrity—ea, contest for • the preset.. vision of our establishments generelly ; and partial , . . , • lady for the iweeervatiou of thaw ecaeaiaatiestma; lishments, of which ao matais a more .w eetet and cere friend,than !fryer*, although all desoiiptionv 41, 1 persons have contributed to the success of the avipit, struggle, yet that no person, haie wade greate44: forts, or have shed their blood with more - prodigality "than the Roman Catholic subjects of his Majesty— (Hem, Bair.) Sir, the conjuncture has now arrived when we ought to regard with the utmost attention the state of the internal policy of the Empire. Wei have peace abroad—we mug have peace at horn.... (Hear.) What we now give will be..given as s , matter of favour—as the result of a wise policy—as proceeding, if you please, from our magnanimity — not as wrung from us by necessity or apprehension. The Petitioners, give me leave to repeat, having shared our burdens, having partaken of our clanger, having contributed to our glory, are entitled to the' enjoyment of our Constitution. They do not attempt to dictate to Parliament the course which ought to be pursued. AU they do is to request—to suppli cate this House to legislate for them t trusting, that in according to diem their wishes, Parliamert will impose no conditions incompatible with their reli gious, honest, and conscientious scruples.— (Lord cheering froos all 'fart: If Me Howe.) The Petition was then read and ordered to lie on the Table. IRISH CATHOLI4I6 1 Mr. G RATTAN observed, that his Right Hon. Friend hid argued this question so justly, so wisely, and with so much honour to himself and his country% that he had really left him (Mr. Grattan) very litt to say on the subject. He begged to return his best thanks to the Howe for the extreme patience with which on various occasions they had listened to the repetition of his opinion's on the Catholic Claims.— Again he had to intreat their candour, which wo u again be fillowed by his gratitude. It bad been re peatedly urged in hostility to the claims of the Ca. tholics, that those claims ought to be advanced with mote temper, and that a greater attachment ought to be exhibited to the existing institutions of the country. It must he most satisfactory to'the House to observe that the Catholics now grounded, their hope of obtaining their liberties, or their rights, or their claims, or by whatever name the concessions to them were to be called, on evincing a disposition not merely to acquiesce," btkt heartily to concur, not in form only but in act, in such terms as that House might think necessary for the preservation of the Church Establishment, and of the Protestant succes sion to the Throste.—( Hear, hear.)—The known wishes of that Howe could not indeed fail to make a due impression on their minds; and having consi dered the whole subject, and the absolute necessity of expressing their attachment, not to the Crown only, ttut to the Protestant succession, the Catholics of Ireland presented a Petition, from which he beg ged leave to read some eitracts.—[The Right Hon. Gentleman here read several passages of the Catholic Petition, the tendency of which was to express the anxious wish of the Catholics, that the great measure of Emancipation should take place, under such cir cumstances es might render it satisfactory and unob jectionable to all classes of his Majesty's subjects ; inasmuch as, in their opinion, the chief benefit to be derived from it would be the union in the bonds of concord of .the various religious persuasions of the Empire 1 and the removal of thdse jealousies and apprehensions which at present prevented a cordial co-operation for the public good. They also declared it to be their duty to state, that they were ready to subnlit and conform to any regulations not incompa. tible with the principles of their religion, or threaten ing with danger its pure and permanent exercise;— and that while they fully relied on the liberality and justice of the Legislature, not to impose any condi tions inconsistent with their religious persuasions, they were convinced . that an adjustment might take place conciliatory to the Protestant mind, and at the same time compatible with the principles of their faith and discipline.]—This Petition was signed by abate nine hundred persons, many of them of the highest rank.—[Here the Clerk, by desire of Mr. Grattan, read a number of the names, comprehend ing a large portion of the Irish Nobility.]—The House had desired to have certain declarations on the part of the Catholics, and the Catholics had given him a Petition to present to the House, in which those declarations were explicitly made. The. House had exacted certain terms, and with those terms the Catholics had complied. lie held is his hand a letter, for the authenticity of which he could vouch, directed by the Pope to be written•by Cardinal Litta to Dr. Poynter, touching the conditioni with which the Legislature of this country wished to accompany any concession to the Catholics. The letter set forth the forms of these oaths, which were very little diffe rent from those at present taken by the Catholics of Ireland; and though the oath which was to be taken by the Bishop was'thought in itself a sufficient security, yet his Holiness did not hesitate to permit those to whom it appertained to make out a list of the candidates for a Bishoprick, which lig was to be presented to the Yiug's Ministers, in order that if any one of such candidates were disliked Of suspected, his name ow be expunged from it. The letter went further and said, that as soon =Jim British Gov - meat shall promulgate Emancipation to tbo-Catho lics, his Hminess will send a brief to the Roman Ca. tholic Bishops to the above effect, and publish to the universe his grateful seDse of the generosity and cle mency of the British Government, and finally.permit the Bishops to observe what was before stated with regard to the oaths and to the mode of 'elections. — (Hear, hear.)—Here then (continued Mr. Grimm), upon the granting of Emancipation, was that power given to the Crown, which had been so frequently demanded as its conditiOn. He (Mr. Grattau) had been often, on former occasions, asked what plan did he bring, in order that Emancipation should be granted :+ What plan could he propose for the secu rity of the Protestant Religion, - as by law establish ed ? In order to be able to ans*er such question on the present occasion, he had, with a great deal of pains, possessed himself of good information on the subject. He was acquainted, through a most authen. tic channel, with the sentiments of the Pope on the great question, and the Pope had expressed himself, that if Emancipation was now withheld,thefault was not his. He (the Pope) bad very fairly said —g‘ why will the Parliament nut slegidate for the Catholics ? Lam not indisposed to withhold my essistatece."- -If then; he (Mr. Grattan) was asked on the pre. amt occasions whose ire roar murk ies t , as would seq . .--. 91 Here are my tortes, they 01* the hole you wished heretofore to grant Emancipation.. psi if you Dori-refuse' them you refose what you t° anxiously sought for, and considered as enmities." hear).—He would ask the House he./ many petitions had' been presented to them this Session against the claims of the Catholics ? He wished to have all or.any of such Petitions read. None could be read. None had been presented, What then was the inference ? That the great body of the Pro testants were not inimical to the claims of theitCa tbolic brethren. tie would not go so far as to say that there were not many Protestants who still op posed Catholic Emancipation, but it would not be presuming too much in him to suppose, that where so many Petitions had been presented on a former occasion, all or most of which were against Emanci pation conditionally, and none on the present, there did not exist any general opposition to it in the minds of the Protestants. There then was no general pre judice to'sontend against on the part of the Protes tants, audehere was sufficient authority to shew that they could . legislate in respect of concessions for the Catholics. The Cktholic Bishops had, in 1799, agreed to certain Resolutions, which declared that the cuncessions which were then, and have been,since demanded, were not bottle to the discipline of the Church. The Pope himself not only declares that such concessions may be granted, but has actually granted them, provided the Catholics beemancipated. This, theu, would, be one good effect of the Core.' Mime for which he intended ice move—it woad w to some of the Catholics, that those concessions • which they objected were net only not against the discipline of the Church, but accordant with its practice. He would not take up the tune of the House by mentioning in detail the grievances which at present affected Ireland. They might be classed under a very few heads. She had commer cial and financial difficulties; but a great deal of her present misfortunes might be traced to religions animosities. The causes of the other evils of Ireland 'nista be removed with perhaps little difficulty.-- But it would not be easy to remove many of the evils which arose from religious distinctions, and the effect of the penal code, without a particular investigation. To this inquiry he called the House • by it they would reduce those who made religons dif ferences a pretext for disturbance to a mere banditti, because the re moval of that pretext would be the result of the in. quiry ; and having no foreign Power to aid them in their wish for disturbance, they would die from jeju. nity: If the result of the inquiry which the House might enter into, did not satisfy some of the Catho lics, it should se recollected that the duty of the House was to serve, not to satisfy them, and if they succeeded in the former, he trusted they would have firmness and spirit sufficient to act upon that conduct which justice and duty ehould point out. Most of the evils which at present affected Ireland were not to be attributed the system pursued by one or another Chief Governor. He by no means wished to attri bute them to snch cause. The fault lay in the law, which obliged the Government of Ireland to act with a ansrlred partiality to one sect.—(fliar, hear, hear.) Uitil this defect in the lair was remedied, it would be impossible for any Chief Governor of Ireland to act impartially. The fault, then, of the misgovern. atop of Ireland as far as its government,was ef. tested by the operation of the penal side, rested with Parliament, who had it in their power to re peal that code. Almost all the evils which af fected Ireland, whether they originated in this code or not, were fostered and fomented by it. The United Irishmen had not originated in religious animosities, but their disturbances bad at length turned into that disordered channel. Thou it ever would be. There was something radically bad in the laws,and as long as it was not remedied, so long would it continue to be the nurse of every evil which arose in the State, whether originating with itself or not. A sore on the finger may, though in itself not very dangerous, be turned to mortality. It was the same in the body politic : malt evils may thus become the channels through which great miseries might flow on the State.—(lfeer, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman then contended, that it was essential to the security of the empire, that the evils which existed in any part of it should be traced to their source, in order to pre vent their spreading, or being the causes of others as pernicious as themselves. He observed, that the so cieties of Orangemen, which caused so much disaf fection between Protestant and Catholic in Ireland, had arisen from the effects of the penal code. Ano ther evil which arose from it was that the people of Ireland, he meant the Catholic population, were not identified with' the law. The advantage of that iden tification would be to unite all in defence and support of privileges which all equally enjoyed, but this ad vantage, which was contemplated by the Unica, was lost by the continued existence of partial laws, which. while they obliged the Catholic to defend the Coosti-' tution, gave him little or no share in the privileges of that Constitution. It was in tam then to expect that while such partiality existed the great body of the Catholics could be identified with the laws. So long as this code of la - ws remained unrepealed, so long would there exist in the State a large body of merk i of whom the Goiernmetit must necessarily be afraid, and to overawe whom it would be necessary to support a large standing army. (Hear, hear, hear. This was a necessary consequence of the penal code, and not its least obnoxious one, as it tended to draw on a military Government. It was trite the soldiers so employed may not be badly disposed, but as long as the soldiers in any country exceeded a fair propor tion of the population, so long is the liberty of the in habitants held, not by the law, but by the clemency of the army =- ( Hear, hear.) He bad every respect for the army, he applauded them for their unparal leled victories and for their strict discipline ; but still he could never consent that British subjects should bold their liberties at-their pleasure—( Hear, hear.) — He-did not mean to say that the support of a large standing army was the intention of the continuance of the Penal Code, but suck was its effects. It was nmessary that this army should be kept in order to 'keep down a proscribed people. It was also neces airy that this army should be paid at a vast expense, ,to the country; and for what was all this expense .and this risk of a military Government incurred ? To keep such men as the Duke of Norfolk or the Earl of Fingal out of Parliament, lest if they-got a `seat there they should-seek by reasonable consprra- Cies to overture the Constitution. But why should or any • other Catholic Noblemen seek to over . 'him die participation disposed, - applying were in pe; then to the was ridicr he had, this we were to prevenl would not Yet these upon to ibi Coustitutlots when they were aritnitiei M t o . i Won of its privile ges ? or , i f they ir e* : " FIOP I, how could they effect it ? Would it li ft . , bee to France ? No. To Sp a i n ?N. i lisit peace and amity with those Power r . It ti , , i s li :he Pope they w ou ld app l y ? Such se i,i' l 04 culous. The Pope h a d not t h e power, i lst No was he disposed to exert i t. Yet it wast, l , bill were obliged to keep rp a large etandiny irk PIT nt a few Noblemen from doing that 9htehd: 7 by of do if they could, and could not if they te( l 4; . • who 4 were the idle fears for which we were cello Tat make such sacrifices. He begged leate ti cg t the empire, acc o rdi ng to the admissi ond atlN les s was at present in a state of great spk, Me We had made great adeitions to it by co, INN MCI it required large standing amiss to k t , p aquests. Why then - should we add lath e ei i 4 110 of our troops, in order to ke e p a part or ct übjects as aliens in the i rnatmecoant r y ? S u y •A was most absurd and impolitic, and toldell as _.._. to reduce the serene)) of the pm..:... .. \ • add that all parties, dour. W quest, and those coil, number lellow.sui conduct greatly to reduce the strength of the empire. H e ., then was the danger which was to be incurred —,d for what ? For refusing Emancipation on those very terms on which it had been opposed some time lurk The opponents of emancipation feared, some tim e back, that by grantiug that measure, they woold be granting an influence to a Foreign power ; tha t f ee , was now done away, by the term s which he Grattan) proposed. , The terms wo u ld A we the 'Catholic pielates • kof the danger of say to zar ol 'ace, and s. *. ly under the power c j the pe for any which it could demand, y e begged the House •on their guard against ne thing like recrimination on the Catholics. It unit sot be politic to refer back to ancient dates of hisu aT ' to see what had been done on former occasions by them. it would be snfficient to know, that in 1782 we had made most important concessions to Irelad, •hich we should not now retract in pan by loo n the benefits of our law to three.fourths of its mink. tants. It had been once said that Ireland would not receive the English LAw when it was presselopo o . l her. The House should not now act upon a cis. trary principle. and refuse those benefits to so lan e wpoition of the Irish population, who would receive them with joy and gratitude. He then moved.. " That this House shall, at an early period in the next Session, resolve itself into a Committee, for the purpose of taking into its most serious consideratios the laws aff.:cting the Roman Catholics of Ore* Britain and Ireland, with a view to such final sal conciliatory adjustments as may tend to the bappinee of the Empire, the security of the Protestant Chardt, and the satisfaction of all classes of his Majesty's subjects."—(Lord erica of hear, hear)—Mr. Grattan thanked the House for their cheers; and observed that it . was not his intention to hurry the measure.— He begged that Members would, before the nest Session, give the subject their most serious attention, and not send the numerous petitioners away wallet" a patient investigation of their griefs. Sir HENRY YARNELL most readily secondel the motion of his Right Honourable Friend, as be was convinced it would lead to such measures as would conciliate all parties. He was certain that the I orge portion of the Catholics of Ireland, from whom he had the honour of presenting petitions, would make no objection to the going into the Coo. mittee. It had been said of those petitioner' that they entertained opinions disrespectful to the Prince Re. gent. This he (Sir Henry Parnell) denied, on the contrary they had drawn up a most respectful Address to his Royal Highness, which they had transmitted to the Earl of Liverpool. With regard to the ques tion of ecclesiastical arrangements, he should not say any thing at present. The most proper time for that would be when the motion of his Honourable Friend (Sir C. Hippisley) 'should come before the House. — As to the question of the penal code, he did not thisk it had been fairly stated, on a former evening, by a Right Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel). That Right Honourable Gentleman had, in his vier of the disturbances of Ireland, lelt the penal code Cll• tirely out of sight, and had ascribed those distni hams to other causes. Such as a general tendency to ie. morality and insubordination in the peoi ; the fact was, that there were very few of the distinbalices .of Ireland which could not be traced to the exiiience of the penal code. it had been said that the lush were averse to the law, but the whole history of lie. land, for the last two centuries, would thew that th.t Irish had - Toe,en denied the benefits and privileges of the Law and of the Constitution. If any indifference to the Law existed, it should not surprize the Howe. fur the law had been a source of pain and privation to them. The penal laws had been rather enacted with A view of depriving the people of their estates and giving them to others, than to prevent the growth of Popery. , The Honourable Baronet then contended at some length against the policy of continuing those laws, which lie again repeated were the source of so many evils to Ireland. Let Gentlemen only recollect wh measures bad been adopted since the Union, in order to govern Ireland—there had been a series of Insur rection Acts, Disarming Bills, and measures of a similar description ; and at length the Right Hon. the Irish Secretary had found it necessary to ask , 25,000 armed men. But the only true and tale mea sure would be, to accede to the simple prayer of the Petition which had been laid before, them. Welt, he would ask, was likely to he the result, if the House, refused to listen to the prayer of the Petition, and Le solved to persevere in the present system ? The secret associations which existed in Ireland would be great'? augmented by the resistance to the fair claims of the Catholics, and could not fail to be dangerOus, if any person capable of collecting and uniting together th.s augmenting force should appear in that country. The only obstacle stated by the Noble Lord oppomte was gone, namely, the state of the public feeling with respect to this measure; for neither from Ireland nor this country had a single Petition been presented against the concession to the Catholics. He tru,ted, therefore, that they would not ouly have the support of the Noble Lord in that House, but also in anotha quarter. General MATTHEW said, it was now two years since he bad bad the honour of addressing the House l on this question. He ,had then presented a Petition from the Conoty of Tipperary, which he represented, praying for unqualified concession. He himself was of opinion that no securities ought to be demanded from the Catholics ; but be was aware that many honourable and more able.men than himself thought !differently on this Subject. He had that cla, return. ev eV leg to tt di 0