Star. — London, England, 1804-04-20 00:00:00

PARLIdMENTARr PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORD 6, THURSDAY, APRIL ist, . - Maynard took the What oaths ;ad his fat. o* ---- ebe Motion of Earl ROSELYN, the third reading of the Archbilhop of Dublin's Eire Bill was poftpoued until this day A: mouths. *►►ESL CAUSE.--RICHARDSONS V. THE UNIVERSITIES or OXFORD AND CATRARIDGI. Mr. PROM Ft, on the part of the Appellants, ad dread their Lordfhips in nearly the following words: " My Lords—When I laft had the honour of addreffing your Lordfhips, I referred to the cafe of enthorfhip, which gives a right of exclufion for a number of years. Bnt that I maintained bore no analogy, as no one could affert that the King was the anthor of the Bible; it was not the work of his hands, nor the produaion of his genius; he was no thing more than the Conflitutional Superintendent or Infpeanr for the good of his people. I concluded by calling to your Lott:nips' attention the great num. ber of years in which my clients had enjoyed the un diflurbed poffeffion of the right, for the continued exereife of which they are now under the neceffity of appealing to the wifdom, the Mice, and the libera. lity of this boufe. There now remain but two points untouched, and I (hall (late as briefly as pollible the impreffion which they make on my mind. There are, firtt, the Mica and precife terms of the patents, as gathered from hiftorical fairs ; and, :oily, the cir. cumflances of the cafe in the Courts below, and the right of the Plaintiffs below to come forward in fuch a form as the law appears to me from my reading and knowledge of the fubjea. There can be no doubt but that the work contended for in each cafe is the fame authorifed Bible, Terhum rule. In January 1604, as the Rev. Thomas Broughton informs us, in his Hiftorieal Diaionary of Religion, there was a meeting at Hampton Court, at which the (late of the then eziffing edition of the Bible was taken into - conflagration. Rapin's Military alto gives the fame the. It was then ordered by King James the Firtl, and given under his fign manual, that a new Tranf lation of the Bible fliould be made out, correfted, and freed from all the errors of the Bibles then ez tapt. The moft Learned men of that age were of courfe engaged in the completion of fo defirable an objea ; but it was not till the year tfit t, the gth of Log James, that the work was complete and pub- Bawd. A copy was pr&nted to the King, with the Tranllarnr's Addrefs prefixed to it, and that ninon was afterwards authorifed by Royal Proclamation to be read by all his Majefty's fubjeas, in all churches, Jec. throughout the realm. That fame had regularly been continued to be printed from that period down to the prefent period, for the information of his Ma jetty's fubjeas, with the fame marks of authority annexed, and he would challenge his Learned Friends on the other fide to deny the identity of the work as printed in Scotland or in England. The words of the Patent granted to the King's Printer, in Scotland, were to print " Holy Bibles, Prayers, he." the words of the King's Printer's pa tent in England were, to print ss Bibles, New Tene ments, Prayers, Ikc." The one was granted in 1785, the other in mg. The words had evidently She (CDC meaning. or elle why infest the word Prayers fa the.-/keis flatakt, when it was knoweettnit 'there Was no Inch thing as a Common Prayer in Scotlansi ? Na mid foray can amebae the Meeting is different, nalefelta fuppofes that the fenfe is altered by the in littlest of words, naturally and obatoody the fame, on different pieces of parchment. Front this, my Lords, 'I conclude that as to the fart there could nut poffibly be a finders , / of doubt ; and hoped that your Lordthips will not be induced to adopt prefumption without proof, in oppofition to fuch a ltvement of faits, but that you will authorife, as the King has buthorifed, a co-exiftence of tight between there dif ferent licenfed pedant, to print fuch works for the in formation of Les. his Majelly's fobjeas. A cafe has been put from high authority, for which I (ball al- ways entertain the higheft ref pea that is. Can Bibles, authorifed in Ireland, be introduced into England, or wire verfa I. I do not mean to enter into the argument of Inch a fuppofed cafe, but merely to (late in anfwer to it, what were the grounds of the prefent cafe. The two Patents, Englith and Scots. were granted fince the Union with Scotland, and I will &retort maintain that any Bibles printed by any perfon, regularly autborifeel by the King to print in any one part of Great Britain, have a tight to be read by all his Majelly's fubjeas within Great Britain; and, when his Majefty authorifes the print ing and the reading. Purely your Lordthips will not ftep in between to interdiO the fide, and thereby render the authority of the King to print and read, nugatory so all intents and put poles. It has been argued, that the objeft of the Patent was to remunerate the individual for a certain tsuß repokd in him. The fupreme authority of the King in this inflater. he would maintain,ftood upon higher and nobler grounds. In matters of invention, of me. ehanifrn, and fuch like, a remuneration was given to the individual for his genii's and allidtity. But here the objea of the Crown was by the heft means poffible to promote the public good ; and that general in. formation of the public was moll effeutially promoted by the file of a cheap, as well as a correa, edition of the Bible : it was then in the power of every man to futnifh himfelf with a Bible coned in all its parts,- and regularly authorifed by the King, without at the fame time bearing heavy on his pocket. The privilege was originally given with a view alto to prevent firange: or foreigners from invading the ditty of the King as the Supreme Magiftrate of the people of this Country. What was the amount of the argument in the Cafe of the Univerfity and the Bookiellen mentioned in r,sinner 233 ? The Uni •erfines there (Iruggled for a right of ezelufion ; the words of their patent were quoted, which were" m eet d ox.nmeolict Like: sea pr<5111;91." From this it wa. argued, that an exclufise light was veiled in the Univerfity to print, and confo l uently to fell, as the fellirg mull be the natural rehilt of the printing, all manner of Books not prohibited. Mr. Holt, however, on the part of the Booksellers. argued with very great prerptiety. I think, with fiibmilTion to year Lord lhips, that thole learned Pet of Printers and Bookfellers were authorlad by the terms of their patent to print books of Inch a deferiptiom but they had no autho- rity whatever to preclude other B ,okfellers from a fimilar line of authorifed publications in any part of tic kingdoen. The LORD CHANCELLOR athed the Learned Connfel if he meant to go fo far as to fay, that the King's Printer in Ireland bad a right to dream. in England ; or, on the tither hand - , that the King's Printer in England-had a right to fell in 'Mated now? Mr. PLOMllt—Citrtainly fo, my Lords.. • The LORD CHANCELLOR then pnt the eon vette of the cafe--Can-the King's Printer in Ireland, by virtue of bis patent, print in England the fame defcriptinn of Books ? Mr. PLOMElL—Certainly not, my Lords. There he would find himfell prohibited. The printing, I conceive, mu ll be within the particular diltria where it is authorifed to be done, but the (ale may extend all over the United Kingdom, in order that all his Majelly's fubjeas may read filch coned and autho riled works. The King may authorife the printing of Bibles by one perfon at Hertford, by another in London, and another in'the County of Surrey, or may authorife one in every County in England ; he may multiply and extend them mevery parith or every llreet, if he thinks fit. But all defcriptions of people may read them, and confequently they have a right to be fold every where. The King cannot fay you (hall not remove the Bible, you (hall bring it out of one fired into another, or that what is lawful to be fold at Cornhill, it (hall be unlawful to fell in Fleet.fireet, though he has a right to appoint a printer, who alone (hall be authorifed to perform that office within a certain dillria, bccaufc there is then a perfon who is ollenfible for the code& iffue of Inch works within that dillria. But the King cannot fay to his fubjw'ts yon (tall buy your Bibles at this (hop, and this tlmp only. No, my Lords, every oqe of his Majelly's fub jefte may legally fell a properly authenticated Bible in any part of his Majelly's dominions, except with the confederation of the exclufive franchifes which are granted to particular places ; and it is not at tempted to be laid on the other fide that my clients, as citizens and freemen of the city of London, are not aothorifed to fell or carry on trade in the city. The cafe on which the Plaintiffs below bad relied principally, was one which went only to prevent the introdutftion of foreign Books. Be it fo, my Lords, we do not quarrel with that ; we only want to pre vent a monopoly of fate in an article, which it is ne• ceffary that all his Majetty's fubjeas fhould be Cup plied with, fo as to leave an open competition in the market for the fale of one and the fame thing, though authorifed to be printed by different perfons, his Majefty's fubjeas. He would now come to a point on which he thought he could, if poffible, tea with greater confidence than many of the preceding arguments which he had urged, namely, the circumllances in which the Plain tiffs below came before the Court. They had affected their right exclufively to print and fell by virtue of the duty which was annexed to the office of King's Printer. They were not the King's Printers ; they had no fuch duty to perform. Betides that, my Lords, in my humble npininn, it is not competent to the Univer fity, to the King's Printer, or to any other licenfed per• fon, to bring an adion, or lay an information again( the perfon who infringes on their fuppoled privilege. ao It appears to me to be the duty of his Ma l i'efty's At • torney General to fi le an information m •in fuch a cafe, or elle a common informer may odge an in- formation for the recovery of a certain penalty. ac cording to the nature of the cafe. I will.put the queflion fairly to your ImrtMlips, and leave the dad lion to your own difcretion—Can the Univerfity, tan any others in a fimilar predicament, can any perfon who is barely licenfed to do or carry on any particular bufinefs, can he in his own right legally prevent ano- ther from doing the fame thing ? A man may be licenfed to walk in Hyde Park, for inflAnci, can it be foppofed that he is thereby authorifed to prevent any one elfe from walking in it ? Lord E LLLLL °ammo, (aid, that when the Learned Conrail took fo great a (cope of argument, be fhonld recollea, that there was fetch a thing as an sedative right of Common, by which a certain number of per fons can put in their cattle to feed, and can turn out thole of other people. Mr. noun—Certainty, my Lord; the obferva- tion is extremely jai. But with great deference I ' than fubmit, that this is not a cafe of property, bat a cafe of licence merely ; and in fuch cafes, I believe, it is not competent to every licenfed perfon to bring his anion againli another perfon who may or may not be equally licenfed. A man who is licenfed to fell beer, for inllance, cannot bring his aCion againli another for felling beer without a licence, though he may underfelt him, and injure him in the profits of his trade. If that were the cafe, every licenfed pub lican in the neighbourhood might bring a diffident affirm, whereby the man waddle ruined. No, my Lords, a common informer may lodge an informa tion, and recover a certain penalty, and no more.— ' But this is not the prefent cafe, my Lords—botlapar tics are equally licenfed, and there is no law by which any penalties can attach to either. The Learned Counfel then examined minutely into the words of the injunftion, the patent to the Uni verfity dillinaly from that of the King's Printer, who, he contended, was not entitled if he gave away his own right, to veil a prohibition in the hands of another, as that power lay only with the Mag. —On the other hand, he contended, that if the Univerfity had a legal authority for nfing the King's printer'. name, they had not made ufe of it, and that would in itfelf be fufficient to throw themout of Cond. But he denied the exiftence of fuch a right. The proceeding being taken up individually, and not by the Attorney General, (hewed the parties that there was no public ground for them to fiend on. Then, as an individual or private cafe, they could not fay that they had an exclutive right to injure the public, or that they had any right to encroach upon the King's out hot it y. It had formerly been argued that this would reduce the profits of the Univeritty. To this he anfwerrd by Caring what had been laid on a former occation" So much the better for the pub lic." If they laid that their charter gave them an exciutive right to fell in England, he would prove that the King's printer had alfo a right. If they maintained that his interelt was joined with theirs, why not make him also a tarty in the cafe? He aim• logged to their Lordthips for having taken_ up In much of their time , and here doled the cafe on the part of the appellants. The fortherhealing was pnflpnned to Wednefday nest, when Mr. Ea ssia s will be heArd for the Appel. _ . _ _ lams. His Royal Highiseis the Duke of Cum '''''''' who has paid uncommon attention to the Pleadings, was in his place ou slits and all the preceding days of heating. 1101101 VOL TAPIRS IttLITING TO HOSTILItTITS IN INDIA. The Earl of CARLISLE Rated, that as the Rate of the country, as con/let:led with the cortdua of Mi taus, mutt, at no very diftant day, be brought un der their Lordlhipe vonfideration ' he would not, at prefent, trefpafs on their time by any obfervations on that fubjea. He role merely to make a motion for certain papers, to the produaion of which he did not apprehend Minifters could oppofe any reafonable olojeftions. He thould therefore move, without any further preface, " That an humble Addrefi , be preknted to his Majefty, pray ing that be ntty give orders that the dates of all difpatches trent mined either by land oe fee, by dovemment to India, previous to his Majefty's Metlitge of the Loth of March, tiloy, be hid on the table for the information of their Lordihips ; and the dates alto when they were received by the pertain to whom they were feverally addretred " Thar the dates of,tbe dlfpatehes tranftnitted between that period and the commencement of hottilities, together with the dates of the receipt of lick to India, be alfo laid on the table." Lord HAWKESBURY thought it his duty to re fill the motion of the Noble Earl, not that there could be 'toy great objeaion to grant the informa tion he feemed anxious to obtain, but that it was con- 1 trary to all precedent, and the conftaut prattice of the Executive Government. He would not deny but ' : many occafions may arife, on which it would be in cumbent on Minifters to accede to propofitions for the produaion of public documents. Ua all quef tions relating to the public Revenue, to the applica tion of the expenditure of that Revenue, or to the magnitude anclidifpofal of the Public Face, there it was competent for any Noble Lord to move for fuch , papers as tended to explain them, and it would be indecorous in Miniflers to oppofe the produaion of them. But where no ground of acculition had been laid down, and where the motives fur producing them were only to be difcovered in vague and un certain rumour, he thought it neither P.irliamenury nor prudent to trouble his Majefty with an iddrefs for fuch pus. - pores; he would therefore give his di!. fent to the motion of the Noble Earl. _ l'he Earl of CARLISLE could not aciee with the Noble Secretary of State as to the pi inciplc which he had laid out, that Minifters were to communicate or withhold information, at their difcretion, on all public occafions, except fuch as arofe out of mat ters that were fairly before Parliament. They, the hereditary Council of his Welty, hid a right to demand information, whenever the interefls of either the Sovereign or the State were concerned ; and it was the duty of Minifters to communicate it, except the publicity of it might operate to the dif. advantage of the public fervice. He would even maintain, in oppofition to the Noble Lord, that pub lic rumour may be fometimes a good ground for re quiring information. He allied, was it not notorious, that in all the circles, from the highefi to the loweft in this country, it was circulated, and generally be. lieved, that Minifters bad been extremely remifs in conveying intelligence to India of approaching In& Wide& It was eafily to be afcertained, fo negli gent had they been in this refpeit, that information of the war had been received from England, by Pri. vats. Merchants in India /modem lays before the difpatches of Government arrived there. To what but this negligence. on the pan of Government, was the efeape of the French !quadrats at Pondicherry ,owing t Admiral Lltattis, with an hieffor hiree l was at anchor within the Britifh fleet under the dommand of Admiral Rainier, and from tome information he had received, he bad cut his cables, and was, per haps, at this very moment. engaged in aaive and fuccefsful hoailities againft Tome of the mat valua ble of our fettlements in that pan of the world.— Surely if the Euglifh Admiral had been apprifed of the probability, mach left the attual commencement of a war, he would, as it would have been his duty to have done, detained the whole of the French fqoa dron. The public had a right to be fatisfied on this point, and. therefore, unlefs Miniflers produced force better arguments againa his motion, he mull perfe sere in it. Lord HAWKESBURY mtsß Rill perfift in op pofing the motion : however, he had no hefitation in (eying, that, pending the negociatiocind previous to his Majefty's Melage, difpatches been fent to. India with all po ffi ble celerity, and y every means of communication, to apprize our naval and military commanders there, of the (late of it, and the pro bable refamption of hoftilities. His Majelly's Go vcrnment, at leaft that department of it, had alfo in a fubfequent period of the negociation, made rani lar communication ; and when hoffilities aauelly coninzencid, they tranfmitted intelligence cal it, by all the means in their power, to India. Lord SPENCER expreffed much furprize at the determination of Minifters to oppore the motion of his Noble Friend. They bad, if he was well inform ed, and he drew his information from a fource which, though not official, was, notwithilanding, in his opinion, too authentic to be scpiellioned, been guilty of unpardonable neglea in not conveying the earlitft intelligence of the war to our ferflements in India. The official difpatches were traufasitted by a frigate who bid. to fee a convoy, which was put under her proteaion„ fate into Lifbon; by which means an una. voidable delay of at leaft z 6 or 18 days was produc cd. if be would credit authority he had no reafon to doubt. Admiral Rainier was not apprized, on the nth of Auguft, of what had taken place in Europe on the loth of March, full five mon*abefore. Sup pore the circumilances of the two fleets had been different, and that Admiral Rainier, with an inferior force, had been anchored infide the French fquadron, could any one imagine that Admiral Linois, on the lath of Auguft, on the night of which he flipped his cables, would have hefitated on the capture of the Britith fquadron ? There was certainly a great blame imputable to Come quartcr, and it was the duty of the Houle to examine it thoroughly. Lord HOBART oppofed the motion, and main . . . . . tamed that there had bcen no negligence on the part of Minitters. The frigate which carried out the difpatches, failed direet for India, and made an extraordinary quick patfage. Our Commanders there bad timely notice of the (late of ; ffairs in Europe, and infiruaions for their conJuft in cafe of the refumption of hoßilities. As to the efcape i t Admi. tal !Anni' fquadron, he was lure no blame c old attach either to the Executive Government, or to his Majeay's Commander in thole lea► upon that account. In faa, Admiral Rainier was apprifed of the probability of the recommen?emeot of the wars when the French fqoadron arrived at Pondicherry, and it was adually under confideration to detain Admiral Limit, when he was Co fortunate as to, make his efcape. Earl CARNARVON faid, that after theadmiffions which bad been made on the fubjed, he could not figure the molt diftant fernblance to a reafon for re futing to aequitlce in the prefent motion. It had been feen and admitted that the fleet of the enerhy, while within the power of our fquadron, had been allowed to efcape for want of the neeeffary informa tion to warrant our Admiral in detaining it. That the French Admiral. in confequence, muff have been poffeffed of fuperior information. was obvious.— What would have been the eonfequence had the enemy's fleet been fuperior in force ? Not only our fquadron there, but all our poffeffions, mull have fallen into the hands of the enemy. As it was, in what fituation were we placed ? lnconfequence of this negled on the part of our Government the enemy were (Imager to the extent of this Rea thaw they otherwife would have been. They were left at full liberty to annoy our trade, and to attack the • molt defencelefi of our poireffions, all of which, bet for this piece of milionduft, would have been fecure. In this fituation, he could not fee on what ground the prefent motion could be refilled. The Noble Se cretary of State (Lord Hobart) had alluded to in formation which Admiral Rainier po&ifed, but he had not faid that the information came from Go. vernment.. Lord HOBART explained that that was his meaning. Lord HARROWBY declared, that on the firlk view of the matter he was inclined to think the mo tion not ftifficiently warranted. From the grounds. however, which had fence been Rated in fupport of it, lie could not help giving it his decided fupport. The Houfe then divided on Lord Carlifle's motion. Contents for the Amendment : I Non-Conteins againft it Pert - - 27 . I Peal - 35 • 4 I Pruurs - - 5 — 3f —3O Being a majority of one in favour of Earl Carlilic's motion. The Non-contents were as follow : ProLiu - Duke of Bedford Earl of Bedsore:lb Duke of Moamar" Earl of Upper Dairy Marquis of Stafford Earl of Darnley Marquis of Headset Earl of Aboyne Earl of Derby Earl of Ormond Earl of Carlifle Lord Woman Lowthag Earl Fitawillians Lord King Earl of Mike . Lord listromby Earl Cowper Earl Spencer Earl Talbot Raft Fort etas* itTri norrieiaoa Lard D. Lord Grenville ! Ar l l - I . ll T all Earl of Cimarron Ead of Romney tent Mita BILL TO - HIS WAVITT TO 11CCtPT TRIt BM. TIM OF TUX 111.11 H UILITI4 Lord HOBART teased, previous to the fecon4 reading of the Bill, that his Majeßeis Meffage on the loyal and fpirited offers of the Irifh . lbould . ba read. His Lordthip declared. that he prefumed there would be no difference of opinion in that Houfe; with relive& to the principle which gave rife to the prefent Bill. and which, carried to a further extent, would fauflion the policy of oceafional interchanges of the Militia of the two countries. But that was not the quettion now before them. The prudence or neectfioy of fuch reciprocity was not now to be del. cuffed ; but as it appeared on the face of the Bill before the Houle, they were called upon merely to determine, whether they would or would not enable his Majray to avail himfelf of the fpirited offers that had been made to him from motives of loyalty to his pert - tin, and of kindnefs and attachment to the welfare and intcrens of this part of the empire. As he prefumed there could be no difference of fenti rnent on that point, however there may be on others, he would no longer detain their Lordthips, but move that the Bill be read a fecond time. Lord BORINGDON felt hirofelf under the no ceffity of oppufing the fecond reading of the Bill, upon many confederations, but principally two, which in his mind were deciave againn the meefure. Ore u.s,, that it would tend, in fome meafure, to fubvert the principles upon which the Militia force was originally eltablifhed ; and the other was, that it was withdrawing a force. which. however inion fiderable in itfelt was neceffary for the defence of Ireland, and could afford no material addition to the force already colleted for the defence of Great Bri tain. His Lordthip was no enemy to the principle, that all parts of the United Kingdom fhould affil! each other reciprocally, but he would rather fee that difpofition modelled by other meefores than a mere interchange of their *viral Militia forces. He witted really to fee the principles of the Union fairly said upon.—lt was now four years fince that great poli tical change had been effeßed, and what, he would alit, had the Government done for Ireland If he could argue from what had palled, when he eonfi deted the eorrefpondence that had paffed between l a Noble Peer of that Houle (he alluded to Lord Re defdale and the Earl of Fingal), and that that Noble Lord Rill-remained in a high jfficialfituation in that country. be was jutlified in entertaining Come doubts of the intentions of Miniflers towards it. U 'Mini f ters approved of the conchs& of that Nofillirliord. why not declare fo ? If they did not, it was incum bent on them to difavow the opinions he had pro mitigated, and to recall him. But this, however de firable in point of jullice or of policy, be defpaired of feeing aceomplifhed. when he recolleded, that the great vital and efrential principle upon which the prefent Minitlers held their official fituationv was op polition to the only meafure that could give fatisfac tion or permanent tranquillity to Irelana.. The 'Duke of CUMIIERLAND, and the Mar qu;, of HEADFORT Mie at the fame time, but the later, though c3iled upon by the Chancellor, gave way to His ROYAL H:GHNESS, who Paid, that he would occupy but a very tmall portion of their Lord thips' time. He role for ihe purpofe of expelling his approbation of the Bill, es tending to ellablills that principle, which he hoped to fee, within a thort time, extended much further. It was his anxious with, that the two countries, which had but one common intereß, fhould, whenever it was neceffarYs interchange their Mihtias. Since they were become one United Kingdom by law, he mated that they ..could not be feparate either in fentiment or praetice. He thought no more ditlinaion, in any refpea what ever, thould exiii between them, than between any two neighbouring counties of Great Britain; and, therefore, as this rneafure would rend to ettablifh that c.:diality and acquaintance between them, that was I heart: Th and e had I not al pan IpeE Not heti fille tnat faci , not Mai pule itec wil ,dil PE ne: far . Pc I of pli Ni ed rni