Star. — London, England, 1816-03-23 00:00:00

7 4. PARLWIRIti ARr PROCEEDINGS. •, HOUSE OR LORDS, MARCH 21. Counsel were. finally heard on the Irish cause of 1 Coklongh et. Rodgers "—Judgment postponed The Earl of MINT° (the law Earl. his father, not having taken his seat as such) was introduced with the accustomed formalities, sworn, and took H. sear. His Lordship's supporters were the Furls of Su.sevelauav and litosst.eis. The Role Assent was declared by Commission to the Eleven Million" Exchequer Bills, the two Mutiny Bills, the Cape of nose! - Hope Trade, the Foreign Packets. and th e Clergy Rept stew Bills. The Lords Commissioners were, the LAID CNAllestLoa and the Dols of Hultatint tor and SmailTallatiev, An adjournment during pleasure then took place; about Eve o'clock the House resumed. Two Private Blue were brought up from the Commons by Lord LA2011.1111 and others, and read a first time. Thy Earl of DERBY presentetl a Petition from the Merchants, Mann!aeturers, and others of the Town and neighbourhood of Manchester. praying for the absolute Repeal of the two insolvent Debtors' Bills.—Ordered to 1W on the Wile. FINANCIAL CoNSIDERATIONS. The Earl of ROSSLYN presented a Petition from the Borough of Dysart, in Scotland, against the re vival of the Property Tax—a large Military Esta bliahment—and for an economical reform in the Ex penditure. Lord GRENVILLE said, he had a Petition to present to their Lordships, which, among other points, respected a measure, which, he had the heart. telt satisfaction to find, bad been, since the-voting of the Petition, done away with. On this head, he could not avoid declaring, that in his own sincere judgment, the discontinuance of the Property Tax, and the remission of the war duties on Malt, were measures that would be found not less beneficial to the collection of the revenue, than productive , of pre sent relief to all classes of the community. He could not avoid' expressing his hope that these advActages to the people would he still farther extended, by at tempts at least, to make every possible reduction in the large amount of the military force, as proposed by Minis' -s to Parliament. This was expressly prayed for by the Petitioners whose application he was about to present ; which he accordingly dad ; it was from the county of Denbig ; and, besides the subject adverted to by the Noble Lord, it touched upon the present depressed state of agriculture, and other relevant topics. fine Earl of DERBY said, he had a Petition on the same subject to present to their Lordships, hut there were certainly sonic shades of difference in the views taken of the subjects by the respective Peti tions. It was from the town and neighbourhood of M inchester, and the Noble Earl detailed certain cir cumstances which attended the Meeting at which the Petition was voted. It was. though not numerously, yet, as he could assure the House,vespectably signed, and to insure which object, a sheet which contained several hundred names which were not deemed so, was detached from the Petition. On its being read, the prominent feature seemed to refer to the adop tion of a system of strict economy and retrenchment, as recommended in the Speech from the Throne, at • the commencement of the Session. The above Petitions were severally ordered to 11- on the table. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE took tl.e oppor tunity to say a few words, as to the means which it may be necessary to apply to in lieu of the Tax which had been rejected, and with a view to the security and permanence of the real and permanent relief of the country in a time of peace, from the burthen of ex cessive taxation. It was most important that the people of this country should feel and know, and lie was sure his Majesty's Ministers must feel and know, that the financial difficulties of the country were not thereby renewed. It was of importance it should be known, that in consequence of the rejection of that measure, that Parliament must have recourse to some other means of finance. The raising money by loans in time of peace, was a measure liable to great and important objections. After Parliament thought fit to reject the measure of the Property Tax, it was of importance, should it then be proper to revert to the means ofd loan, that the amount of such loan or loans should be kept down as low as possible. He was aware of the great importance, in the present situation of the country, that the money market should be eased; and if loans were determined upon, one of the best ways of doing that would be to keep down their amount as much as possible. Keeping this in view, also, they would have to review the Peace Expenditure of 29 millions, which had been partly voted by Parliament, though it was still sub ject to the review of that' Assembly and of the Go vernment. A loan system in time of peace should at any rate be limited to a certain term of duration, and' he feared the dangerous facility by which, in time of war, money was raised in that way; often led to un necessary expenses. If the same facility should sib taiu in time of peace, the same consequences may be expected ; a perseverance in such a system would eventually lead to a recurrence of those very evils from which the country had temporarily escaped. HE •Nould not then enter into any discussion of these topics. hut could nut avoid the opportunity of calling the serious attention of Ministers to the subject, though he could not but believe them fully sensible of the difficulties of our present situation, and trusted that attention would not only be directed to the amount of the loans, but to an effectual reform in the public expenditure, as he, in his conscience, believed, that upon a due attention to the important point of economy, the present safety of the country would essentially depend. The Earl of LIVERPOOL felt it necessary to say a few words in consequence of what had fallen from the Noble Lord. The principle of the admo nition given was never out of the anxious considera tion of, his Majesty's Government, as applicable to either course which Parliament. might adopt, whe ther with reference to a continuance ef the Property Tax, or whether by its rejection it became unavoid able, through its rejection, to have recourse, under the circumstances, to the measure of a loan. • What ever system of finance may be thought most advis aale by the Executive Government, it must be f ,unded on this principle, namely, that the establish ments of the country should not be greater than the exigencies of its situation required.—(Hear, hear.)— Upoo that principle alone it was that the establish ments proposed to Parliament Were founded. He could assure the Noble Marquis, that if any one person in that House, or in the country, felt more tnan another, as to its present situation, it was him self. Wilk respect to the measure of a Lon in time , . of Peace, it had certainly been the object of his Ma jestyrs Government to have adopted a system, for a certain period at least, which would preclude the necessity of going into the market to raise money by way of loan, a system which, in their judgment, would have been the most likely to have relieved the actual distresses of the country. Two modes were the most obvious—either by continuing partially the Property Tax in the view of upholding public credit, and thereby operatinf upon the money market in a way that would inspire general confidence ; or by that mode which the relinquishment of that measure had rendered necessary, and which was adverted to. Of these it was his firm conviction and opinion, that the former course of proceeding was the more likely to telieve the distresses of the country, and the more likely to contribute, in an economical point of view, to the real interests of the country. With respect to the amount of a Lean, whether of six pr of eight millions, as a question of expediency, he did not conceive that such a statement had come from any quarter. The difference of amount, with a reference to circumstances, may become a fair question, but net of an importance compared to that of the diffe rence in the systems of finance to which he had al. luded, and he had no hesitation again to answer, were the question put to him, that the mode of pro ceeding with reference to the Property Tax, was decidedly the most desirable in the way of affording relief. Upon that ground alone the distinction had been made, and he could assure the House, whatevet expedient for raising the sums necessary may be adopted, he considered it a duty equally imperious upon Government and upon Parliament, to fix the Establishments of the country in that way, and on those principles, which the interests of the country lequired, taking care, at the same time, not to make them more extensive than the necessity of the case calle4 tor. The Earl of LAUDERDALE was of opinion that some distinct pledge should be required, not only as to the amount, but to the duration of time which the Loan system should be acted upon. Un less this was insisted upon, and unless the whole sub ject to which they referred was not thoroughly in eestigrted by A Committee of Parliament, he would say that the finances ot- the country were not safe from ruin. He differed widely from the Noble Earl as to the alternative adverted to, as it was his belief that if Ministers had succeeded in their financial project, it must have ended in the ruin of the com ity. His Lordship then adverted to the effect which the paper circulation had upon the present financial situation of the country, and said that no Minister could safely undertake to raise public credit, either by the Sinking Fund or any other expedient, unless he could Ex the standard of payments. Viewing this part oi his subject somewhat in detail, he ex pressed , • opinion, that it was the misfortune of the cow that it had not at some time fully felt the pres , „ . - of taxation, as then it could never have been ~, • . s nt into a situation such as the present ; and he ty sated his conviction, that if a series of Loans, in A time rat peace, were given into, until the necessity of such a system were proved before a Committee of Parliament, as well as the whole system of finance, the consequences would be most alarming. And he had to implore tke Noble Lords seriously to consider the duty they owed to their country in those respects, and to place before the pablic the real state of the country, so that every man in the country may be' thoroughly apprised of it. Such a system was adopted with the most beneficial consequences, in the years 1786 and 1792, as well as at subsequent periods. The Earl of EGREMONT presented a Petition from the County of York, respecting the Financial and Agricultural situation of the country; on which, as well as un certain circumstances attending the voting of the Petition, his Lordship made some ob servations, is which he seemed to consider the appli cation of the Sinking Fund to any other purpose than that of its original destination, a very question ' able expedient. The Petition being read, it appear ed the agricultural situation of the country was complained of, as well as' the establishment of a large Standing Army in time of Peace, praying that a constitutional reduction may be made therein.— Ordered. Viscount MELVILLE presented a Petition from the City of Edinburgh against the continuance of the Property Tax, and a large Military Establish ment in time of Peace. He would take this oppor tunity to refute, from a document in his possession, what was stated on a former evening by a Noble Baron, respecting the way in which the Income Tax was paid in Scotland, and the proportion which it bore to other taxes in a particular city. The Noble Viscount then stated, that the Tax on inhabited houses in Glasgow exceeded by very little the sum of di10;000, whereas the amount of the Property Tax exceeded considerably the sum of £82,000. Lord HOLLAND explained, that what he had stated was merely as a rumour that had reached his ears. He had heard that a Petition for the conti nuance of the Income Tax had come from that city, from which he drew perhaps a hasty but natural in. ference, that its inhabitants did not pay much of it, but he was happy to find that the people of Glasgoe had contributed their due share.--(A largh). The Marquis of LANSDOWN stated, he had to give notice, on the part of a Noble Marquis, that he intended shortly to submit a motion to the House on the subject of the State of Ireland. He should now move for a summons, as his Noble Friend, perhaps, would very soon specify the day. SLAVE ?&ADL Lord GRENVILLE rose to bring forward his promised Motion on this •subject ; but before he en tered upon it, he begged to call the attention of the House to a different topic, and which he deemed of borne importance. The Noble Lord then adverted to the mode (from which great inconvenience was experienced) in which the accounts or reports sent home from the different Presidencies in India, in which the statements of what concerned the political and commercial concerns of the Company were so blended and confused, that it was impossible ade quately to distinguish them, or to say, when settle ments came to be made, what their commercial loins may be. He recurred to some of the relevant provisions in the Act, which, in those respects, seem ed impossible of being carried into effect. He ob served this from no suspicion that any neglect bad taken place, but from a wish to know whether it was the real fact that these provisions could not be cow early open day. being forward a motion • and of plied with I and in this view he should* on some which, h' trusted, w! at he now said would be deem ed a sufficient notice. The Noble Earl then pro o pe du w ee oe fil d s Motion. He it H h e him h(:pe th d at th it at ‘‘ a ,a l s l ceedegi their L t o o ref il :f t i r i ps shouldd donenow m cPar t l r ef f h or b t y loa i rh had e heirg t he ' A i C documents i re al b :l7li ni ,h . ing 'ri u ie le ivirl ' il l ici- r isl a rd d h e ‘hei in Slaves by importation into the Colonies from Africa, and by this means hid the foundation of all further mea sures on that subject. His abject now was, to brii:g before the House such information as - could be pin cured relative to the effect of this measure on the commercial interests of the West Indies, and on the condition of that unhappy race of beings for whose benefit it was chiefly designed. It was highly de sirable now that their Lordships should learn whe ther the predictions of those who augured only evil from the measure had been verified, or whether the more sanguine hopes of those who had viewed the matter in a very different light had not been fulfilled; and whether the most important benefits had not re sulted from it, no: only to the cause of humanity, but even to she agricuitural and commercial interests of the West Indies. Perhaps their Lordships mi g ht think, that when Parliament was overwhelmed wito other business of the highest consequence, it was not expedient to be calling for Pavers merely to gratify curiosity: but his orotion was also intended for a practical purpose. 'llofir Lordships had indeed great good by preventing importati , ins of Slaves from Africa, but they had not done the whole of their duty. He did not wish at present to raise any question on the subject of legislative interference with the internal concerns of the Colonies : but as to ti:e abstract right of the British Parliament to interfere, he considered it as perfectly clear on every ground, both of principle and of practice, ever since the Co lonies had been settled. The only qualification of this right was in the raising of the Colonial revenue: but even. that right of exemption from the controul of the British Parliament, rested on an Act of that Parliament, which therefore might, like any other Act, be repealed by the authority by which it had been passed. But while he asserted that right in its broadest extent, no one could be more anxious to i avoid all undue and vexatious or captious interfe rence in practice : no one could be more disposed to continue to the Colonies every advantage which by custom and usage they enjoyed. Their Lordships could not but fe,l that there was, in the circumstances of our Colonial policy, one subject on which the House had alieady declared itself—one subject on which it hoard the concurrent voice of humanity. and justice—one subject on whi:h it had received the congratulations of the country and of all good men —the amelioration of the condition of Slavery by the abolition ' the Slave Trade. We had in our West India Islands more than half a million of per sons placed in a situation in which no British subject was placed—in a situation where their happiness lay at the disposal of other4to an extent not experienced by the subjects of any other State—to an extent not felt by the lowest class in this country—out placed there b 7 the permission of our laws, arid under the sanction of the Ltgit.latute. Though their condition was such as called loudly for relief, and appealed to the interference of human:ty, it was c implicated with such circumstances, that the intended relief - and interference, if tic: wisely administered, might not only endanger the lives and properties of tlio,e held them in bondage, but the existence F and safety of these unfortunate beings th e ms e lv es . &pressing, therefore, a hope and desire that, ts society improved, their condition might be gradually ameliorated—that they might gradually rise into a state of greater con sideration, and arrive at the enjoyment of those rights and liberties which were enjoyed by the least favoured classes--those classes that partook of the smallest portion of freedom—we should consider what could be dune to secure their protection, and to accelerate their improvement. We owed it to our own character, to our own consistencn to take care of the interests of a people whom we had already manifested such a desire of protecting, and for the bettering of whose condition the Legislature of this country had proceeded so far. There should, how ever, be no precipitation in the enactments to be made : he wished the House to view the subject with a full sense of its difficulty and importance. It it was true that protection ought to be extended to the black population of our Colonies—if it were mer ciful to endeavour an amelioration of their state, it should be considered how our humanity could be most effectually exercised, and how we could guard against evil while we attempted to do good. He had no hesitation in saying, that the first step in this great work *as the prevention of any accession to the numbers already in slavery by fresh importa tion —or, in other words, the complete execution of the abolition act. He always looked to regulations as theconsequence of abolition, and not to abolition as the consequence of regulation. The British Par liament had lent its sanction to the great and glo rious measure of complete abolition of the trade—it now behoved it to enact such regulations, or to en force those already enacted, in such a manner as would render any further exercise of it impossible.— The first object of the abolition was, to cut off !lie chance of fresh supply—to guard against any new sacrifice of human liberty—to prevent the accumula tion of misery, and by those means to raise the value and to ameliorate the condition of those who had pre viously been imported as slaves, or reduced to _that degrading condition in our colonies. 'rile Noble Baron here expressed his satisfaction at the extent to which the hopes of the abolitionists were already accomplished, or in a progressive state of accom plishment. He was happy to have the testimony in favour of the results -of the abolition—not of the ftiends of the measure, not of those who advanced it with all their endeavours, not of those who looked forward to its attainment as the object of their %%idles and exertions—but, of these who at first opposed it, or who looked upon its accomplishment as a very equivocal advantage, and who had only surrendered their opinions to the evidence of facts and expe rience. He ivas happy. in short, to have the tests ' mbny ()fits enemies. in favour of the great good it had produced. Its effects.in ameliorating the condi tion of the existing slaves, in producing a' gradual improvement in the relati o n s o f the two kinds of po pulation. and conducing to the permanent smutty and tranquillity of our colonial possessions, had nearly fulfilled the anticipations and predictions of its advo- eater, and agreeably dlsappolfil ponents. Thus enc'n►raged ' former labours in the cause proceed with greatercourage p.4rt iii our duty which still i greater confidence on the object. He felt convinced that tifarious and glorious fruits of act of the abolition, it cartic by auxiliary tegulatiolis—than the mass of slavery, vid pre , misery, buc would ultimatel a contrary system had, engert the great change which the fr manity anticipated. Our fir tertained these hopes, hhOUld surer 215 W0U.4.1 ascertain to di of the aboh , i.m, and !hew w! effects Anticipated, in incre;+! as improv:;og the condition t thcre w•.,s ouch an iacte.tse that increase was proved to the real p:inciple of the evasion, then it w, , uld he it those win) west• friendly to perceive the he ,efits of wise If, on the other hand, there this inc-ease, and if the hopes mists w ere to be eieippoineed, it werild be still more fe vettor keow to evlixt that disippointment was °wi le %VI; er it proceedret (rum the evesionot the 6117 ." it the law WAS not eveded, whether there were i te , t 4. pecuiiar circumstances conne cte d welt es • ° that prevented it Iron producin g a d the good which its t. ndency was directed If the l ee easy as he hoped it would be, enforced with proper dm, and with the de s ire of producing the greatest pod, its execution should be watched in every pl ete , every establishment, in the smallest as well as t h e largest the Government, the House, and the Country, resting convinced that the measure could only be useful when it was to iversaliy molted,- If there Was in the whole of cur colonies one point neglected—if there was one inlet to fresh supphesue. guarded—if the Law of the Abolition were in the slightest degree evaded, no advantage could remit from its operation. All the evils of slavery vei l ed be again felt—fresh importation, Iresh suffeergs, fresh horrors, fresh mortality, would be again espe. rienced.. The Abolition Act, he thought, might be made completely effective, and the recurrence ot all these evils prevented by a Bill which he would earo. duce, for the Registration of Slaves in cur Celenes. , Such a register would not only slew the incleese or the decrease of the black populati o n in their num. hers, but would ascertain such facts AS lIUMbel4 Alone could not furnish. Supposing an increabe, it was evi. dent that the simple tact mient be explained in two ways; either heel tresh importation by an evetiunot the law, or Irma n.ttive procreation. The register would ascertain which-of these was the case. It 4 down existed of the evasion of the law, the register wutile thew when i: took puler, and the cutter if the perscn unjustly reduced to slavery would be piry a. ted from rcapiitg the huh' of his iejustice and iheich of duty. An objection might be suggested to such a measure, that such a law would be equivelee te a penal statute. He could n tinder:it:old the applies. two of a penal law to w huh: comnitopt;es. buck law as he proposed would n.,t be a leraal, but wily a preventive law : its object was to prevent crimes, not Ito Punish them ; it di.i not r-quite. a proof tit ;trait conitnissi , 4l to justify its enactment, but a probehay that they would be committed. l'ne Nobie Berea begged tee House to remember, that tale-. L. e met. sure of tie abolition was before their Lin:tepee it was'alleged against its pasing, that it would be to. tally ineffective; that no law could pier era the im. pot tation of slaves clandestinely, it the open trade were prohibited; and that all the povver of G %%tn. went could not prevent smuggling after the lawful traffic was ended. Such reasonings anu avowals sere sufficient to excite the jealousy of :he friends to the Abolition, and to induce them to secure ies execution by every auxiliary enactment, like the present.— It would be-to shut our eyes to what was happening or had happened —to what had taken place or would take place—not to adopt provisions similar to thaw implied in the registration. He rested its necessity on the impossibility of any other precaution prnducinc the wished for effect. In the greet Areeepelago of .Islands where our possessions lay, it would be pied. cable, under any system of vigilance arid precautien, to import slaves twin one is'.and to another. Now the peace was established, the twenties of smuggling would be incalculably increases!. During tee wet the danger of clandestine imprrtation was ereater than now, because there were mote of the islinds under our dominion (and he was of opinion that we had still too many I, and consequently a ti re.tter es. tent of the Eur 'pe.tn colonies sui!,ject to our I iws. Although we might prevent importation from Atkas we could not so easily shut our Vossessions ap.nst fresh supply from the colonies ut our treighb.aut the same Archipelago. Secencily, durin g war our vessels exercised .4 of se:rrch which trey ‘voutti nut now be justified in claiming. If a ship were ceeding to the colony of any friendly power, we lied now no right to stop it, though in a short [inn its cargo might be landed on our own pi:lutetium There were two powers in Europe that had not g:ven any pledge of a desire to discontinue this nefarious tradic, and there were free ports in the ‘S'est far discharging their cargoes. He would not trouble the House at any greater leng;11 on the subj though, by referring to our lately acqiiirce reseseions on the coast of South America, there reiget be Adele tional arguments found for the meetute he was re• commending. The next point to be adverted to, W 44 the source- whence the necessary reguletion thong originate. It should emanate from the British Nate !lament, and should not be left to the discretion ol the local legislatures. The British Parliament not" proceed to the consideration of woat was just and ex. pedient, disregarding prejudice, and observing a dig. niti . :d moderation. It the object could have been attained without our interfetencr, he wa. willing to allow that our interference should rot have been ;nested. The legislative authorities for the Mil' c.ispirt• should only offer to (Humiliate measures, when it was proved that by no Other mode they could be enact( d. For th e p ur p ose of put mg the How in possession of the information requ eto the discus* scan and due consideration of the Bill which he pro' posed to introduce, he would now move, pursuant notice, that there be leidirelere the House copies ttud ented the fof its gy p ; d by the suet es; of of human; y, we ;ni g h t to theperforn t ince 14 ON remained, and rely wi t final ittaiiiment . ot per at such wou l d be t h e m u L of this one great political ied into complete eff ect F lat it would not only limi t ncrent the a^cessi n o f ly remedy the evils which mitred, and terminate itt " friends of liberty aid hu. first object, while we es. 1 d be to provide such ineop demonstration the results whether it produce: M t the at well Of the black p tpulatioo, se as was predictci, zad result from th e opertio4 I.tw, and wit bona its [atifying to the fe ehtS Of it, and matikind legislative Intel/atom it had been any chetit cie es of the aboli tion i st . N