Star. — London, England, 1807-01-24 00:00:00

U was to terminate in December t Po 6. Of the mem bers of that body he was difpofed to fpeak with great perfonal refine ; they were all men of great inform ation and experience, and were able to give very ufe. ful information. Yet although many advantages raft arife from the labours of perfuns of fo much ability, yet in fnme inflances their reports were at tended with confiderahle inconvenience. As long As this eftablifhment was immediately connected with Government, no detriment arofe. This was the cafe when the Nobleman at the head of the Admiralty alto prefided at this Board ; but when it became a separate body, the difadvantage was obvious. He would !late a tingle inflame by way of esplanation. The Commiffioners Reports were printed, and in tonfequence were expofed to the general infpeftion both of the public at large, and of the individuals whofe interells might be immediately concerned in Inch reports. Occafionally it was reprefented, that the falaries and emoluments of the fervants engaged in various departments fhould be augmented. If the board of Admiralty concurred with the Cornmiffion of tievition, all was well ; the increafe in the pay was acceded to ; but if the former differed , in opinion en filch a fobjed, no alteration was made, and much diffatisfattion was occafioned, as the fervants fo dif. aingnifhed deemed the augmentation a kind of right which was unjualy withheld. At the condemn of lan year, it was intimated to the Members of the Board of Revifion or Review, that the term of 1 their public duty wasapproaching to a clofe, on which a defire was expreffed that they might be continued in their fituation three or four monthr, or perhaps liz months, to enable them to complete what was In progtefs that they conlideted of confequence to the tervice of the Rate. He (Mr. Grenville) did not, under thefe circumstances, deem it right to adhere rigidly to the letter of their appointment, and was willing to affent to their retaining their functions fix months longer. On this ground lie ventured to in clude the ex pence of this ettablithment for that term, in the prefent vote ; but he thought for a further pe riod, it would he both unneccifary and improper.— Pe Paid he would now endeavour to relieve the Com mittee from any fatiguing details, and concluded with moving, . ." That it it the opinion of this Committee, that the additional number of iopoo men be employed in hi, Mak_fty's fcrvice at fea, for the year 1837, including 2.r0 Royal Marines. Mr. JOHNS'IsONE highly approved of the de tailed information the Right Honourable Gentleman defigned to give to the Houk, and was only lorry that I he had not commenced filch details with the prefent I year. He alto hoped, that when thefe minute ac . counts were to come forward, they would not be con-' % fined to the Rflimates, but would be introduced into The Expenditure. It the Board of Revifion were in. jurions, he was lorry that they were allowed even a lix months' exilience. Mr. ROSE complimented the Right Honourable Gentleman on his great candour in refpeit to thcfe accounts. If he was defirous, even at prefent, of ex ' hibiting the accounts on the new plan, he might do it, as for feven, eight, or ten years, the arranged heads bad been prefer ved in the offices, and the correfpon. ding particulars could be produced. He (Mr. Role) did not fee any neceffity for altering the form of the votes ; the accnunts.might be produced in the form fuggelled, and the votes continue at 71 per month for each man. Witt) regard to the 600,0001. for foreign gartiihns, the cnntraft was (dually given to Memberc of that l-lunfe.—( A cry of" Hear ! hear !" on the itlatilie.ial Benches] ;—and the delign was, that only one purchaser fhoul I appear in the market, fo that the intention was, by avoiding competition, to promote economy. Mr. PEKCEVAI. thought h very abfurd to con tinue the Board of Naval Revifion fix months longer under the perfuafion that the Right Hon. Gentle man felt ant mit of its inqility, but of its injurious intetfereace with Governeent. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER contended for the propriety of lengthening the ex itlence of the Board fix months longer, in order to give the Members time to mature what they had already prepared. The Right. Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Refe) had talked of the correct detail of the diltind items of account, which was preferved for many years in the refpc4live offices. What might be there he did not know ; but of this lie was confide.% that both his friends near him, and he himfelf, had applied for filch accounts, and all they could obtain was the ufual documents laid before Parliament. Mr. ROSE explained. Admiral MARKHAM was furprifed at the faci lity which was now pretended in procuring loch ac counts. In the year 1804. there was great übltruc tion in preparing them, and they were not yet reduc ed to any methodical arrangement. What was called Domeiday Book, was ditcontintred in the time of Lord Barham ; it contained an accontit of repairs of !hipping in the King's and Merchants' yards, but it having been withdrawn, he could not obtain the par ticulars he defired Mr. PE RCEVAL and Mr. ROSE feverally ex plained. Mr. GRENVILLE in reply, obferved, that when be pmpofed the vote of :20.000 men, he did not do, perhaps, what was molt accurate, yet he adopted the tthiform pradice of former years. He availed him ftLf of the ordinary courfe which he deemed, at that time, to be mat fatisfaftory to the Houle. Was this then to be confidered in him an err: in judgment, elpecially when, at the fame time, he was preparing the way for accounts more minute and tatisfadory ? Was tt now to be reprefented as a matter of reproach so •-.irn ? He would merely afk the quellion ; but how far it ought to be fa conttrued, he would not condefcend to examine. Then wi h regard to the cornmiffion of Naval Revifion, a Right Honourable 'and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Perceval) thought him (Mr. Grenville) reduced to a fatal dilemma, when he reprefented the inconvenience attending the lab airs of that Board, and the vote propofed for the continuance of their indo ill y fur fix months. It was 'quite clear, that, although there might be a partial detriment from their exertions, yet a cafe might ex. 111 in which the ad vantage would overbalance the injury fuitained during a temporary application of their powers. Mr. JOHNSTONE laid, that when the vote of an inereafe in the number offeamen had been propcfed, Come palpable tealon had been alllgned. Thus in 1798 and in tBol more feamen were voted. At the former period the reafon given was the accumulation of the enemy's forces on the coati ; at the latter, the Northern Confederacy. Mr. ROSE produced an account, in an Arranged form, of the various items of naval expenditure, un der :boa of the heads diftinguifhed by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Grenville) •, many of the particu. Jars of which he read to the Houfe as an anfwer to the Chancellor of die Exchequer's obfervations, that no fuck accounts could be obtained. He Paid they had been in office, fince 1793, and were ready at any time to be produced, had they been required by Par liament. Mr. T. GRENVILLE was not inclined to make any Wine remark; bnt if the Right Hon. Gentleman had the accounts, why did he not produce them for the examination of the Houfe ? His ( Mr. Grenville's) defence was, that be did not exhibit them to the Com mittee beeaufe ht could not have accefs to them : all he could do was to promife to produce them, when he could get poffefliun of them. Then the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Rofe) procured this account, afterhaving gone home for the purpofe,and,returning to the Houfe, Paid, " I have had the account in my pocket for fourteen years ;" yet he never, during that time, deigned to impart its contents for the informa• tion of the Houfe. 6 4 If 1," (aid Mr. Grenville, " had retained it in my pocket fourteen years, the Right Hon. Gentleman would have had a juft caufe of reproa 5h againa Inv" After a few words from Mr. Ross and Mr. VAN SITTAR.T. Sir JOHN NEWPORT complained of the man. ner in which papers were withdraan from the public offices on any change in the Adminifiratinn, and par. titularly itt his own office, that not a tingle document was left to him on this tide the It ilh Channel. Mr. RUTHVEN enquired bow the. Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Role) procured the document he had read to the Committee ? Mr. ROSE laid it was his property, and copied at 1 his expence, for his own private convenience. Being anted by the famelHnn.Member:from what document it was copied, Mr. Rnfe replieJ that he believed the original was in the Navy Office. rhe queflion was then pot and carried, and the following fums woe voted in the Committee fur the current year : 240,5001. for the (aid feamen. 237.30e1. for vidualling the fame. 390.c001. for wear and tear for the chipping of the fame. 33,00)1. ordnance on board the limps where the fame may be employed, at 31 per man per month, for t 3 months. 1 . 1 33434 1 .9 x• 3d. for ordinaries for the Navy, including half pay to Naval Officers. 1.134 9031. for building Ships in the King's and Merchants' Yards. i x seo,ocol. for the hire of tranfport. 303,ee01. for the fick and wounded at home and abroad. soopooL for prifoners of war at home and abroa 1. Mr. VANSITTART, in a Committee of Supply, moved that the following fums be voted, nn which the motions were focceffively pot and write! ; 1,1401. for the fuperhatendanee of Aliens. 12,0001. for the expense of the Office in Bow Itreet. 51,-5ol• for the ex pence of convicts at home. 15,c001. for contingent expences of the three Secretaries of State. 1 a.ooct. for the Meffengt rs of the fame Offices. 175,c00L for Foreign ind &act Services. 20,cc01. for Law Offices. 3=l. [or ExtraordinAry Fxpences of Profecutions. ILA - xi for Over-payments in tBo7. 140,1991 171 for Emigrants and American Loyalifts. 14.421. 13s. 6d to make good deficiencies to Fmig:a...t Clergymen. 10.3361. 35. for Proteitant Diffenting Aliniders and French Re fugees. 1301. ss. 4d. for the Minifters of the Savoy Churches. 193 1/. 41. ed. for Stationary in the Exchequer. 2 go]. lor Altoisencts to Officers of the Hodes of Lords and Commons. _ ..... _ 59,7 601. for work done at the two Notices of Parliament, and at the Speaker's hook fince 18:4, congaing alto what is yet to be completed. sz,B-01. to make good deficiencies in the former votes for thefe purpofes 49931 is. for repairs of military roads ht North Britain. It was next put and eArricd, That the above refo. lotions be reported to the Honfe, and that the Chair man (Mr. Hobhotife) do afk leave to fit again. The Houfe being refumed, And the report brought up, Lord HOWICK moved, that the Committee ap pointed to fearch for precedents of the expultion of Members have leave to fit during adjournments of the Houfe ; and, further, that the Houfe, at its riling adjourn to Monday. Both thefe motions were put and agreed to. COMMITTER OF SUPPLY. The Report of the C,romittee of Supply was brought up by Mr. Hobhoufe, on the motion of Mr. Vanfittart. _ _ __ _ Alter lime converfation between Mr. Role and Mr. John(lone on the other tide, and Lords Houick and Henry Petty on the other, in which the former objected to going into the Army Etlimates at In late an h 'lir, and the latter per fitted in proceeding to the difcidlion, Sir JAMES PULTENEY laid, that confidering die latenefs of the hour,he fhould confine himfelf to a very few obfervations. As to the new Military Syllem being prodnaive of An immediate fupply for the at my it was now proved that it had not had that effcet— and aliho' the Right Hon. Gentleman ( Mr. Wind ham) might not have been very languine as to the number that it might mire, yet it molt be fuppofed that the advocate: of the fytlem did taped that it would at lean produce tOme increafe t whereas, on the contrary, it appeared by the estimates that it had occafioned a diminution. In order to make room for this lyfiem, Which had only produced sOOO men in a year, we had repealed a former fyitern, which bad produced 15,000. However, his Majetty's Minifters might hope that this meafure would ultimately be beneficial, he mutt a& them, did not they confider that fume fupply was rectlfary for the army in the prefent year, and whether any of their meafures had a tendency to procure that fupply ? The Honourable Secretary at War (General Fitzpatrick) had contented himfelf with laying, " no bad etfeds have been yet felt from this meafure," be thought, however, that he fhould have gone a little farther, and ihei.vesd that fume good effects had been produced by it. As to the Training Bill, it was a meafure he extremely withed to be carried into elle& If ever there was a moment in which the mealure was neceffary, it was no lefs necelfary at the prefent moment. The danger was not to be defpiled becaufe it was fome what difiant ; but, on the contrary, we fhould take that opportunity of being fully prepared to meet it when it fhould come. If the Bill ever was a good one, it ought now to be carried into effed—but if in the opinion of Parliament, it was a bad Bill, it ought to be repealed. As to the Volunteers,altho' it had been laid by a Noble Lord that they were as numerous now as at any former time, yet it was no torious that there was by no means the fame attend. ance at the drills and ennfleestlmitthere was formerly, and that confequently the force could not be fo ef feeive. Sir JOHN DOYLE was not furprifed that Come Gentlemen wilhed the difcut!ion to be adjourned.— There were fome Gentlemen at that fi de of the Houfe (the Oppofition benches) that (poke at loch great length, that it appeared they were only fpeaking agatal time ; and although they were very minute in their calculations on other fubjeds, titneatpPea red to be a thing that they never took into their calculation. —He agreed with the Hon. Baronet who (poke lan, that although the day was dill:int, it was not at an end ; he was furprifed, however, when he heard Gen tlemen from that fide of the Houle fo anxious to ex tol the Additional Force Ad, when they themfelves hal been obliged to confers, that all the hopes they had of it was from the improvements they intended to make in it. Although the Ad had done little in its original (late, yet it was to do wonders when it was mended. This puts me in mind of a Rory of one of our Poets, h o being irafcible, as well •ts de formed, ued to fay, gi God mend me." %Viten a friend °bre, ved, it would be better to make twenty new ones, than mend one like you." But they wet e going to mend it. This alto reminds me of a Pt iell's maid, who, when called for any purpofe, was jut( going to do it ; and when her matter silted her one day, had the wattled his books, in order to try her, the as ufual anfweted, jolt going to do it.' Or, like the Duke of Wharton's puppies, they never opened their ryes till they were going to be drowned. Whenever any deka in the mea'ures of the former Admittiata. tionoyas pointed out, they immediately cried out— " 0 ! but we were jufl going to remedy that." This put him in mind of another !tory : He had heard of a let vans maid, who, when found fault with for ne gleding any past of her Wines, ufed conflan,ly to anfwer, " Sir, I was jolt going to do it." Her mailer wifhing to fee how far the would make nfe of this anfwer, afked, " Have you washed my books and papers ?"—" No, Sir, (laid the maid) but I was jun going to do it." In the fame manner, what ever was left undone by the late Administration, the Houle was conliantly told that they were jolt going to do it, before the change. It was fomething like a feu of puppies he had heard of, that never opened their eyes till they were drowning. The Additional Frirce Bill ailed or the army as the French do to their allies, that is, it cut off all their refources. The pre• fent fyflem had in its effeas not only beat the Additi onal Fotce Bill, but that meafure added to the general yeti oiling, and to the recruiting at the head quarters of the regiment. He thought the plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman would infure a regular fupply to the army in the bet manner, in the way that a good landlord can infure his income without racking the tenantry. He was lorry that the meafure had been fomewhat de layed in its execution,as bevies conviacedthat it would have done more for the Right Hon. Gentleman than he had done for the meafure. if it had really been a year in operation, it svortld have allowed hint to make a very tritimphato Rater:tent of its efficacy. He (hould not attempt to follow the Noble Lord (l.rnd Catllereagh) in the infinite leaks of his diverging calculations. The arguments and the calculations i:f the Noble Lord were extremely good, if he had but data to go upon. His calculations wcte extremely minute alma: he defcended to the truckle bed of kthe worn out moldier, and difcnvered that it was too loft and too comfortable : his calculation went to the cheapen way of ht ingiog an old foldier's grey hairs in forrow to the grave. His calcul trions and his reafoniogs were fo very profound and accurate, if they had but any foundation in mull, or in fact, that they pat him in mind of that clafs of men (madmen) whom Mr. Locke Oates as perfons who argue tight upon falfe premifes. If he fp .ke from that fide of the flontle (the Gmfition Sid,). it was merely from a cattle that, no doubt, operated with other Gentlemen in another fenfe, becattfe he could not get a good place on the othet fide of the Houfe t o latish). He allowed that, in a free country, there ought to he an oppofition as a check to Motillers : this oppofitinn, of courfe, ought to conha of men of talents, and as no one could doubt the ability or to lents of many of the Gentlemen now in oppofition, he could not but with that they thould remain h'ng in that situation, as the cortaitutional check to Admini- Oration. He could however give them one recipe, which, if they would adopt, wind,' add much to their importance. if they would adopt towards the Go vernment the language, as they had the manners, of Monsieur de Talleyrand, and if they would fay to the Gentlemen on the Minillerial benches, " (tons re vont Irlenrandons rien," or its plain Englah " we do not want any of the places that you hold," in loch a cafe there I could be no doubt but that their (Trillion would be more liberal and more harmonious. He had heard objections to rite negoci 41ion, but it appeared to him that no negotiation could . have begun under better aufpices. The Right Honourable Gentleman, (Mr. Fox) who was then at the head of the Department of Foreign Affairs, was a man endowed by nature wi.h a vat and comprehenfive mind, that could cieatly perceive the interells of the cottrary, and what it had a right to claim. He was a man of that benignity and fuavity of manners, which conciliated the affedinns of every individual with whom he had intercourfe; of that probity and known honour, which immediately gained him the confiience of all lot ciao nations with whole Minitters he neguciated. In him them was nothing doubtful, nothing ambiguous, nothing coun terfeit. He was ton peat to be proud or haughty ; he was taro wife to be cunning. He was, in political life, an example of the old Englifh proverb, that Honefly is the belt policy." He thould not pretend to praife him, for that was a talc that would require talents as gigantic as his own ; but he vanilla fay, that we never had a negnciator mote fit to lupport the cattle of the country with Foreign Powers in general, and with France in particular. He begge; leave to late to the Houle two inliances within his own know. ledge of the effed of the Right Hon. Gentleman's (Mr. Windham) fyflem. In one regiment that he knew, where the fecond battalion confine s ' r f;4t men, 147 of them had volunteered for general service in the fix months preceding the new fylleno, but in the fix months that followed it 267 of what remained elf° volunteered. In the regiment that he had the honour to command, the fecond battalion confined ef4oo. For the fix months preceding the new fyffem, there was lout one man who volunteered ; but in the month of Augutl, when the new fyflem was explained to them, no lefs than 269 volunteered. He had no right to argue upon thole tads, as they were net offs- cially before the Hole, but he would pledge his s'o nour to the cotreetnefs of the flatemtnt. Heconfidert the quality of the recruits much improved by the new fyilem. A great number of thole who went under the Additional Force AE left the fervice fmmed;ately.— He could nut call them deferters, becaufe it never trigs their intention to ferve : he coull only call them robbers, and he thought thufe were not guilders who connived at the fyilerr. that !nought them for ward. The march of thole people were like that of wandering Arabs. Wherever he faw a man corn ing to kin the army, he alfo law a wife and fix chil dren ; and they were Inch men, that Sir jobs FaYai . would not have m a tched through Co ven t r y with them, 4at's flat (a lough ). It Teemed as if the Addi tional Force Bill had effeeled a general gaol delivery, it difencurnbered the parifheb to encumber the army. Of all the mortals that he had ever fet his eyes en (except the Elquimaux) the wort' looking were the recruits which the Patin; Bill had produ..ed lough.) He had heard that it requited nine tailors to make s m 4n,but nineteen of theft tellnws wruld not make a fol- dier. The lion. Born .t tht n,after pa in a tigh con s. plimcnt to the (pith which brought fprward the V lunteer fyllem, found great fault with the manner in which that fpirit had been mifapplied : he mentioned an inQance when he was Adjutant, in 1776, to a re giment in America, that confined principally of raw recruits, be was teaching all thole regular mantra 'rer and mode of difcipline which was taught to the volunteers, when the Commanding ()dice', (Colonel Grant) a very fznfible man, told him," You ars doing very well , if we had but plenty of time ; but as I want to bring thole, men loon into anion, you had better begin at the wrong end, and teach them to fire till.' As an Irithman, he had no ob- jeaion to this mode of beginning at ;he wrong end, And it anfwered extremely well i❑ the firil anion they were brought into ; he thought a flmilar courfe ought to be adopted with refpea to the Volunteers, who might be a powerful auxiliary to the regular army as light troops. He concluded by an eloquent defcriptinn of the clingers which this country fhould prepare itfelf to meet. _ _ Mr. JOHNSTONE began by Rating, that for himfelf he could adopt that phrafe that was recom- mended by an Hon..B4roner (Sir John Doyfe) and fay to the prefent Minifters ? " Nem se vetu demandons rien." He had not anted for or received favourc from any Adminilrati n, nor did he now hope to receive any. He congratulated the Gentlemen on the other fide of the Houle, that they had at length difcovered the merits of the meafures brought forward under the admlnillration of Lord Sidmotith, a man to whom they tiled to apply every degrading epithet, and call him after a charafter in Moliere's plays, George Dan. den ; and yet, n rw it was proved, both by their con feilions and the climates on the table, that the corn pa t atiVe merits of the different ryftems were, that Mr. Addington's produced 40,000 men, Mr. Pitt's 30,0c0, and the grand meafure of the prefent Admi nittration produced but Sono. After a variety of objeCtions to the details of the fyflem, the Hon.Mem her accused Minilers of an unwillingnefs to print their accounts and climates. Thole Army Eilimates were not diffidently in the poffeflion of the different Members to enable them to pronounce whether the different items were proper or not. He had oned them to be printed for the general information of the Members : it was on that ground that he had pro pored it to the Right Honourable Secretary at Was' (General Fitzpatrick), and he lbould coolers, that he, in common, as he believed, with the great majority of the Members of that Houfe, had ton little infor mation about thole Ettimates, to undertake upon them alone to ground charges of want of aeronomy to the prefent Miniflers. He 11,14 ftronger and clearer grounds to go upon. 'They began by increafing their own rotaries, and they went on by continuing or cleating new finecure places to provide for their friends and dependents. He Should alk the Right Non. Gentleman, for what other purple were two Muller Mailers eneral appointed in Ireland, when the office of Moller Manet in this country was a mere finecure, and had been folemnly declared in 1798 to be wholly mineceffary, and therefore fufpended. Was it not now revised, and fplit into two 'Aces for the pnrpore of ferving two of their worthy friends ? He had been afkeel, why he did not bring thole charges againft Ministers in a regular firape 1 he floolid, therefore, now give a general notice, that it was his in:emit - in, al a future time, to bring them forward regularly. Colonel WILDER joined with his Hon. Friend the Baronet, as to the propriety of the late meafures adopted by his Majefly's Minders, and laid, that, from his own exoerience he had an opportunity of perceiving their efficacy, particularly in the inereafe of the number of recruits fence the introduetion of the new Military fvflem. Lord BLANEY fuggefled, that more effe&ual means fhonld be taken to prevent peefons from again enrr.ring the fervice who had been difchirged on the ground of infirm; ies. Colonel MATH:E.WS thought, that Inch frauds were imprafticat le, as the recruits were rubjed to three different infretions. Mr. ROSE felt himfelf impelled by a firong fenfe of duty to deliver his opinion even at that late hour of the night. His Meijelly's Miniflers had been fo much in the habit of praiflog one another, that they mull have been hig'ily gratified at the panegyric that was this night paff.d upon them and,theit meafure', by an Honourable General on that fide of the Hattie (Sir J. Doyle). He hid no doubt but that loch a panegyric would dr ngly recommend the Honourable General to the favoir of Isis Majefl)'s Minders. He molt, however, complearly differ from the eulogfurn he pronounced upon their condo& in the late nego tiation with Fiance. It they had in any one 'alliance more than another expofed themfelves to the ridicule and contempt of the country, it was in that. In the not (crating out a reinforcement to Buenos Ayres, they had air° (hewn the moll criminal negligence. It was not ti a faa that there were no (hips fit to carry out the ncceffary reinforcements; for, dur. ing Mr. Pitt's Aminiftration, there were tranfports enough at S e rithead to have carried out not only ~3000, but 20 1 000, to any part of the world. The ruin to Buenos Ayres was little more than the run to the Well Indies. Mr. Ptt had alto a brigade of troops confiantly within a day's march, ready to em. r bark for any delination Oat at 4 hr. be judged necef fary. Mr. Rose then examined the details of tit* new fyftens at eonfiderable length, and would by no marls allow that any Superior degree of 'economy