Star. — London, England, 1819-06-12 00:00:00

I 1- i 4~ .~ 1 V FOREIGN MAST/41NT BILL. •• Lord CASTLEREAGH moved the Ordei of the Day for carrying up the Report of this Bill. Mr. BROGDEN bilought up the Report. On the question that it be read, Sir ROBERT WILSON rose, but Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that he did not wish to prevent discusoiOn in the present stage of the Bill, and only interrupted the Gallant Officer to say, that as some Amendments had been made in the Com mittee, he meant to move, that the Bill, as amended, be printed, to give opportunity for consideration before a full discussion. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said, that it would be certainly very convenient to have time to consider the amenditients. At the same time there was nothing to prevent-any Honourable Member, on this occasion, from discussing the general subject of the BilL Lord CASTLEREAGH agreed that there was nothing to prevent such a discussion at present. Sir ROBERT WILSON said, his observations would apply merely to the details of the Bill. • Mr. DENMAN said, he thought that it would be found necessary to recommit the Bill. Mr. MARRYAT said a few words in confirmation of some facts he had advanced on the former night. The Noble Lord had denied the Thanksgiving in. Spain for the removal of Heretics, but he (Mr. Mar ryat) insisted that the fact was so ; and he would re ply to the Noble Lord, in the words of Hamlet— " There are more things in Heaven and Ratth, Horatio, " Than are dreamt of in your philosophy !"—(Hear, Hear.) The Honourable Member then shortly adverted to the reprehensible conduct of some of the Autho rities in Trinidad, and to the massacre committed by General Morillo t that massacre had undoubtedly taken place under circumstances of the utmost cru elty ; but he could not give up his authorities lest the most dreadful consequences should follow upon the individuals. The fact was confirmed on British, French, and Spanish evidence ; and in that part of the world the barbarous fact was as well known as the Battle of Waterloo was here. He produced the original Petition to the Governor, which had been refused. He now, therefore, called upon the Noble Lord to declare whether the instructions of Govern ment to Sir R. Woodford were such as to prevent him from admitting well conducted persons in dis tress? In refusing an asylum to the fugitives, he had signed their death-warrant, and had incurred a dreadful responsibility, if he were not authorised from Ministers. The Honourable Member objected very strongly to the continuance of the Spanish laws in the British Colony of Trinidad. In 1797 it had been censured by Mr. Pitt, and in 1304 Lord Hol- land had reco:nmended to General Picton to intro duce as much of the British system into the country as possible. The government of the Spanish Autho rities had excited the execration of all mankind ; yet not only by this Bill was it to be continued to afflict the South Americans, but by the consent of Ministers it was continued in our own Colonies. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that the ingenuity of the Honourable Gentleman seemed as if he had taken the opportunity, which his opposition to his Bill afforded, of expressing his opinions upon a case is which he had been long engaged—nainely, whe ther Tiiiii‘lid should have a Constitution or not? and also with a crimicisi..4.: .46...-s-....cainst Governor Woodford. He had on a former occasion mentioned, that Governor Woodford had not only favoure I the Royalists, but absolutely shut the port against a number of persons who had sought there an asylum from persecution ; and that the consequence was, they were all murdered, and that the shores for some miles were whitened with their bones. Now, he (Lord Castlereagh) had before replied to this what he begged again to repeat, that not only had the port not been shut, but that the persons alluded to had all been well received to the number of 3000 and up wards, their Chief most hospitably entertained, and some Royalist vessels which were then in the har bour were prevented from following sonic others which had put to sea ; and this was done to prevent any breach of that strict neutrality which it was de termined to keep up. This he (Lord Castlereagh) had before stated to he the fact, but the Honourable Gentleman had, nevertheless, brought up his charge again. As to the circumstance of Governor Wood ford's not allowing a particular individual to remain on the Island, he could not exactly state what his in structions were on this subject ; but the case was quite a different one from that of not affording an asylum to persons who had fled thither for their lives. The Honourable Gentleman had said, that not only was there not neutrality observed, but that the con duct towards the Insurgents was barbarous. This he Irttsst beg to deny ; no such conduct as that which lad been alluded to had taken place. With respect t.) the circumstance of thanks having been ordered in Spain, on the departure of the British troops, for its having been purged from heretics, he should, after the tory which he had before heard, and which he had known not to be the fict. give it but little credit ; but if there were any such thallogiving, it was, he rather thought, for having got rid of the French, not the English. • Sir M.W. RIDLEY observed, that the conduct of Governor Woodford would be found, upon the most strict inquiry, to have been such as no objection wonli be made to. He (Governor Woodford) had on every occasion conducted himself in the most impar tral and honourable manner. _ _ _ Mr. GOULBURN said, that the Honourable Ba ronet had only anticipated him by a moment in ex pressing the same sentiments of GovernorWoodford's conduct, which had throughout been dictated by most honourable and impartial principles. The Report was then read, and • some of the Amendments were agreed to. Upon the reading of another clause, and an Amend ment to it being moved by the SOLICITOR GENERAL, Alderman WAITHM AN said, the Bill appeared to him by these clauses to be quite a new and a diffe lent Bill fiom that first brought in, and what was worse, it was even still more objectionable. Lord MILTON agreed in this opinion. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, he wished the Bill printed, when its intentions and objects would , to be completely understood. GRANT thought the Bill was nothing else new translation of a Spanish manuscript not well understood. „. W. RIDLEY said, if the Bill was printed it be primed ia4Spanisb, as its fit commentator. ii '. • P r I 1 cat Bill , . l it cv° i rse or'd " ll '•' Lord 1 .' ii to be prig be likely f .' 1 Mr. G ' i ; than a n bitherto r , Sir N. should be convened= betweeis Sir IL rasysta., tbe Stsaaaa, Mr. L. Fissarsa, Lord C.4aasurffea, and Itteaassa, aad die Billpassed. ' Mr. BROUGHAM hopodtime world he given to examine Its coatents, by ordering the Bill to be re committed. Mr. B. BATHURST said, the course now pursued on bringing up the Report was perfectly consistent pith former precedents in similar instances. The SOLICITOR GENERAL assured the House the alterations had only originated in the corrections of grammatical errors. There had not been any new clauses introduced. Mr. DENMAN said he had, during the progress of this -Bill, dropped several objections he had in tended to make, because he could get no answer. By a Clause in the Bill he row found it was compe tent to the Lord Advocate of Scotland to institute proceedings in these cases in the Courts of Law in Dublin, as well as those in Westminster, because the words of the Bill rendered those officers liable to prosecution in any place competent to try criminal offences. Hence they might be tried at Edinburgh, as well as at either of the two formerly mentioned places. He now wished to know if any Order in Council had been issued for preventing the trans portation into South America, from this country, of arms and ammunition ? Lord CASTLEREAGH admitted there had been such an Order issued. It extended to the island of Cuba, which, as it was in the hands of Old Spain, sheaved tht disposition of the British Government to maintain a perfect neutrality. Government was also very careful in granti ig licenses to ships going out to the West Indies, lest our Colonies should be made an entrepot for arms and ammunition for the service of the belligerents. Mr. BROUGHAM admitted, that Government might so far think itself bound to issue this Procla mation and act upon its restrictions ; but he wished to know whether his Majesty's Government had acted so far upon the principle of perfect neutrality as to issue a similar Proclamation, preventing the export of arms to the territories of Spain. In one word did the introduction extend to the port of Cales, for it was *ell known that at Cales and not kt Cuba, the Spanish Monarch was preparing an overwhelming fprce to crush the Independents ; It consisted in part of thirty-four British vessels chartered to tak out Spanish troops, warlike stores, &c. to South America. Whilst suck a decided difference was observable in the conduct of Government to Spain, and towards her revolted colonies, it was silly to talk of any ob servance in this country of a perfect neutrality. . . Lord CASTLEREAGH said, nn such Order in' Council had been issued. plainly for this reasou, that it would be unavailable, except the commerce of this country in the article of arms with all other ports of Europe were altogether interdicted. Vessels might ton engage themselves, as the law now stood in the character of transports for this purpose to the Go vernment of Spai:l. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH contended, that the answer of the Noble Lord broadly conveyed an in timation to the wo:Id, that our intended time of neu trality of conduct would amourt to nothing more or less than this, that our Government was determined to permit the introduction of every possible means of military annoyance into the hands of one of the Bel ligerent Parties, whilst it interdicted it in every pos-, sible way to the other. After a few words from Mr. MA RnYA TT, Mr. Al derni.in WAITSINSAN, and Mr. DENMAN, who e&. pressed a hope that sufficient time should be given for a further consideration of the measure, Lord CASTLEREAGH said he had no objection, if it was the wish of the House, to postpone the fur ther consideration of the Report from Tuesday, the time first proposed, to Wednesday next. The Report was then ordered to be taken into fur ther consideration on Wednesday, and printed in the mean time with the Amendments. POOR ItATES. Mr. STURGES BOURNE moved the Order of the Day for the third reading of the Poor Rates Misap plication Bill ; and on the question beiag put that the Bill be read a third time, Mr. PRIMROSE opposed the measure. It tended, in his mind, to take from the wages of labour a part of the sum raised by the Poor Rates, and that for the purpose of supporting the children of those who were not capable of doing it by their own exertions. It was not intended by the 43d of Elizabeth, that chil dren incapable of work should receive parochial aid. That Act made provision only for men who could not procere work, for the lame, the blind, and the aged who were incapable of labour. The Bill, in his mind, would tcnd to abrogate the laws of nature, and prevent parents from making that provision for their offspring which they might otherwise be disposed to , do. He did not go the whole length of Mr. Mal thus's principle, entirely to abrogate the Poor Laws, but they admitted of considerable improvement. This measure would have the effect of placing the worst ! part of the people in the best situation. It would give them an advantage over those who were dis posed to labour for the support of their family, and to keep their children from the workhouse. It would be better to open the way to a gradual rise cf wages, which would enable the labourer to keep his children.; without the aid of the parish, than to continue the present allowance, or to adopt the principle of this Bill. On these grounds he should propose, that it be read a third time that day three mouths. Mr. PETER MOORE took this opportunity of objecting to the Bill. The Right Honourable Gen ! tleman s proposition to alter the rate of allowance, by withdrawing from their parents the children for whose support it was at present partly made, was one', from which he must dissent, when he knew that in the city which he had the honour to represent a large portion of the poor were working sixteen hours every day, or ninety-six hours in the week, for a pittance not sufficient to keep soul and body together; five farthings they earned for four hours' labour—(Dear). The 53d of the King had virtually repealed all the beneficial enactments of the 43d of Elizabeth. He hoped sincerely, nova ithstanding that he must concur in the objections of his Honourable Friend, that the Right honourable Gentleman would not, however, desert this cause, but resort to other means for effect. ing the good which lie intended. Mr. STURGES BOURNE lamented as much as the Honourable Member (Mr. Primrose), the dis. tressed state of society. To remove many grievances he hoped the present Bill would prove beneficial. With regard to the proposition in favour of tbe chil dren of paupers, he begged leave to differ from the Honourable Member. The money, in most instances, 122 a been misapplied by proSigate parents. By the adoption of this clause, he was cenvinced those appli- cations would be greatly narrowed. The Bill was not of a compulsory nature. It was left to the op tion of the parish to adopt its regulations or not. Its 1 1 operations were so far commendable. that with educa tion they combined moral instruction with habits of industry. They also taught the youth so circum stanced not to he contented with his hovel, but to elevate his mind to objects of a higher order—to teach him to look forward, by a virtuous exertion, to the comforts and happiness of society. He admitted that the relief afforded was in many instances " most niggardly, barely affording the means of keeping body and soul together"—( Hear, hear). lie did not think that this or any other regulation would at once l cure the evil ; but, without indicating the partiality of a parent for the Bill (which had certainly (uigi nated with him), he was fully persuaded it would be very beneficial to the community, and greatly ame liorate the state of the poor. Lord MILTON objected to the Bill as tending to legalize the evil of which the House and the country complained. Until the rate of labourers' wages had increased, he did not think that any measure like the present could produce any good. He therefo:c should support the amendment. Sir J. SEBRIGEIT supported the Bill, as tending' to introduce the blessings of good education among the children of the poor. Mr. PHILLIPS was aware of the existence of many evils which the Bill would not temove. It af futded a stimulus to population, for all the poor ss ould become fatheri and mothers, when their children would be supported. Under these impressions lie felt it his duty to support the amendment. Sir ROBERT WILSON said, that the present Bill reminded him of similar measures which had been attempted in France before the Revolution, and al-c in Austria by Joseph 11. which, instead of producing great benefit to these countries, caused much evil to spread, fiom the general discontent felt on their account. Mr. BRAND said, that he felt confident, when he originally proposed this measure, no such conse quences would arise as had been alleged to the Bill. The pressure of the evils complained of, required some specific measure for their removal, and he thought the present Bill would have a good effect, and he was convinced that the labourer ought to be supported rather because be performed labour, than because he had many children. It was well :•eiewn, and in the agricultural districts particalariy, that the labourers declined to exert themselves, because they derived more benefit from their parishes than from their labour. The children were not to be sent to the miserable and odious places, such as the workhouses afforded, but to receptacles, where comfort and order would prevail, according to the clauses of the Bill. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH felt himself bound to thank the Right Honourable Gentleman for the care he had taken in bringing in this Bill. Notwith standing that all agreed in considering that the evils produced by the Poor Laws were the greatest in the internal economy of the country, the difficulty was great to provide an effective legislative enactment. The Poor Laws were interwoven with the interests of many individuals, and no measure could therefore be proposed which would not clash with the interests of some. The interests of the poor and of the liv e bouring classes of the community, who, in point of fact, constituted the great mass of society, were of importance to all. The misery felt by them could not be passed over without a neglect of the most mo mentous duties. Every measure which could be pro posed, ought, in his opinion, to be regulated by two tests; first, that it led towards establishing matters on their original safe footing; and, secondly, that it did so with the least possible inconvenience (Hear.) The mischief, however, which he felt from this Bill was, it would, under the semblance of relieving the country from the pressure of the Poor Laws, eqab lish another system equally if not more oppressive. The labouring pauper, it was true, would be :eiieved from the immediate expense of suppr , rting and edu cating his children, and whatever he earned would be for the maintenance of himself and his wife, so that he would be precluded the necessity as well as excluded from any false pretence of applying for pa rish relief. But then the expense saved to the parish in ore way would be more than exceeded in another. It would ba like establishing a system of Foundling Hospitals throughout all the polishes in the kingdom, and imposing a permanent charge on the country of which no 111:01 could see the end. It would have the tendency amongst employers of lowering wages to their labourers to the lowest minimum, scarcely ade quate to the existence of the labourer. But after all what was to become of those children of the poor after they were educated to maturity ? were they to be turned loose in the world, with notions above the, humble lot of their parents, to find livelihood as well as they could, or what means was to be established to find them employgrent He should dread the consequences, under the conviction that such a sys tem would be far from ameliorating the lot of those poor children, and still further from correcting the rnichiefs of the Poor Laws. In all events if the House should adopt the Bill, he should, at the request of a most respectable body of Dissenters, have i b o propose a clause for exempting persons of that description from having their children taken from under their care, and placed in schools where they would be edu cated in religious opinions opposite to the conscien tious scruples of their parents on that head. Colonel WOOD explained that the Schools would be Schools of industry, where the children would be kept and instructed in the day, but would be allowed to return to their parents at night. The objection of the Dissenters was therefore unfounded. Mr. T. COURTENAY also defended the Bill. After a few words from Mr. Alderman WOOD and Mr. CURWEN, the House divided— For the Amend:tient -4( Against it 69 litaority against the Amendment - —23 On the re-admission of strangers, Sir J. MACK INTOSII was proposing a Clause to exclude the Children of Dissenters from the operation of the Bill. Mr. S. BOURNE objected to the Clause, and the question being put, it was negatived. Mr. Alderman WOOD proposed a Clause, which went to s•zempt the children of Jewish parents from the operation of the Clause respecting religious worship. The motion w.ts negatived. The Bill was read a third time and passed. A new Writ was ordered for the Borough of Dorchester, to elect a Burgess in the Loom of Sir S. Shepherd, who since his election, had accepted the office of Chief Baron of Scotland. Six C. UONCK at for an Address to the Prince Regent, 'pr syht his Rays} Washarts to sive tlirecaoas di 2 •r( 2: r eluded between RUSSIT. and Torten ea March ISO% the Ciaalpine Itepuhlir, be laid before the House. Lord CASTLEREA diu no: our motor, bit doubted whether the information calicu fur could h. ' The motion was then agreed to. The Hour. then went il.to a tor:matte on the Grir.p Election Bribery Bill, in which Air. W. Niftier, Grampound, wat examined. The House then resumed, and the Repo. t received, ani or dered to be printed. The Report of . the Charitable Fontlarions' B i, .. The other Orders of the Day were tt.en iit House adjourned at Oat o'Clock this Morning. Til E F4\ EN INC- STAR LONDON. SATURDAY, AINE 12, 1.".9. I'flP. r(itiO~. ? rcrd tn. ate tat PRICE OF -roc K s This DA'. AT ON". Bank !Stock '219 3 per Cent. ILJuced tiV. 68; eai 3 per Cent. Consols shut 31 :)er ( ent. 761 I ,er Cent. Mi.! ! 8 7 ssi 5 per Cent. Navy shut ll:Lik lAmg Annuities 171 IS 1-16 Irish S I,er C , :ntc. 101 India Solck shut—lndia Bond-. 6 (hr. Exchequer Uili. r2d.) 3 pre. par Omnium 1 0 1 discount Consols for Acct. 6;-.lil 69. 6:1. Yesterday afternoon and thi, morning, the trio!; unfavourable reports wete circulated v. it!; a VICW to depress the Stocks ; for a time they had the de 'led cifect, as Consols left off yesterday at 6S;, and thr. nium 1, 1 1 discount, but the Contract,,r his deposit of 10 per Cent. on the atth,unt Loan he holds, and the Subscribe: s rti two-thirds of their deposits by Twelve o'Clo ck. tLt deception was discoved, and Consul, immediately rose to 69, and Ormium to Coktractcr then offered to advance any suits the House wa;:ted at 4 pet Cent. The reports respecting South American :Adis tinge as contradietr , ty as ever, :Ow ays taking the lit veur cf !he ul.ant,el whence t::ey are derived. (Le thing however is obvious; that :he Insurgent caul maintains its ground, a:A the total of all the st.c. cesses obtained at different periods since the cur ' mencement of the Revolution, amounts only tr, th;s— the Royalk armies have not yet been e; stroyed, or expelled from S. aith America. sub • joined accounts, received yesterday, present the late?. • information from that quarter. The letter from Ila vannah is 'deserving of particular attention, as it serves in some degree to corroborate a previous re mr.ur, that the island of Cuba was about to be, or was already ceded by Spain to Great Britain. Should this be the fact, it will, in some measure, accoin.: for the placid countenance with which the cession (.Ithe Floridas to the United States has been beheld he our Government. One thing is obvious:—this country has much higher claims upon Spain than the United States could possibly set up. Look at the Peninsular war; look at the immense debts due to our met chants; and if the spoliation of war is to be set up as a ground for compensation (which was one set up Ey the United States), look at the part Spain acted is the war between Great Britain and her American Colonies ; and look even at the Manilla ransom, which yet remains unpaid. If forbearance is to be paid for by Spain, how great are our claims? how soon could Great Britain have effected the entire emancipatkin of South America ?—ln one word, in this reported ces sion of Cuba we see a reason why no objection gas made to the cession of the Floridas, and also an intel ligible reason for Ministers bringing forward the Foreign Enlistment Bill ; respecting the policy cf which it was difficult to satisfy any person whatever not in the secrets of the Government. If Ministers have actually obtained Cuba, they deserve, and they will obtain much credit, for their foresight. Ii they have not, the Americans will clr tain the entire command of the Gulph Stream, arA we shall, 'ere long, be entirely shut out from the Gulp!' of Mexico. To Britain the island of Cala would probe an invaluable possession. PORT hi SPAIN, APRIL 29. I send you the latest paters and letters I have received fie= the Orinoco. A Capt—n, who arrived yesterday, said, drat tr.: armies on the Apure were in sight, and that a battle would ice'• vitably take place. Experience has taught me to receive flyirg reports with great distrust ; I therefore refer you to the letters in question to guide your judgment. The Width at Margatita, augmented by nati•:e troops to 2500 or 30G0 men, were to effect a landing near the city Caraccas, under protection of the squadron, which is far seer rior to the Royalist. Cutuana was besieged by that gallant Officer, Geneml E•.r mndvz ; and, when the Fly sloop of war left it ktely, %rat is great distress for provisions. The Storekeeper has Ucserit: .0 Bermudez, with ..11 tke details. General Urdanita commands the expedition from Margzti;:. and the brave General Gomez, who commanded the Chrtv tf :Wargar:ta against )lozillo, is also under orders, it is szid, to compi.ny him. The Congress Is getting on well, and a Representative Cc , vernment acts lilt magic en the people. The simple Installatica of this Body has produced a perfect union and subordination 13 all the Chiefs—so respectable is a free Constitution! Thu D:g• lish are quite at home with it ; and General Bolivar, at leisure to pursue the war, while the Vice-!'resident, Mr. Zee, with the Secntaries of State, conduct the routine of Government. Sea will see the ample powers vested in tl•e President by the Con gress, :Led Genital Bolivar deserves them all. TRINIDAD, APRIL '2l. His Majesty's brig Fly, Captain Tomkinson, came in on the 77th inst. in eight days from Cemana. Ile had previously biro at Margarita, where English had arrived with his force; alse 3 Colonel Hutzler, frcm Hambur4h, also with trccvp ; tte.t . t 1