Star. — London, England, 1811-07-09 00:00:00

SECOND EDITION, with ADDITIONS. This day were published, price 10s. eid. ' POENIS, by MISS M. R. MI'L'FORD, printed uniformly with CHRISTINA Suhl by Messrs. Rivington, St Paul's Church-yard, London; and all other Booksellers. Where may be had, CLASSICAL. JOURNAL. No. VI. containing a variety of Bilslical, and Oriental Literature, price 6s. to be cortinued Quarterly. ELEGAN WE LATIN& ; us, Rules and Exercises of elegant Latin style, by E. VALPY, B. D. third Edition, im proved, price 4s. romE SACR.,E HISTORI/E; for Schools, price IN. PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, JULY 8. Their Lordships met at an early hour, and heard an Appeal on a Writ of Error from the Court of Chancery, Cormure v. Williams, when their Lordships affirmed the decree of the Court, with costs. Their Lordships then adjourned daring pleasure. THE STATE OF THE MARSHAL‘EA PUI'ON. The House being resumed About five o'clock, Lord HOLLAND called the attention of their Lordships to a subject which, on a former occasion, he had felt it incumbent on him to submit to the consideration of the House—the State of the Mar shalsea Prison. At the period referred to he had mentioned the case of a man who died in that prison, and whose death, according to the report of the Co roner, was occasioned by a w.lnt of necessary soste uance. The truth of that verdict was disputed or doubted in that House. Upon diligent and minute enquiry, however, since, he was folly convinced that it was correct. He was aware, indeed, that measures were taking for the erection of a more commodiour, prison, instead of that of which there had been so much reason to complain, and from the character of the Noble Lord under whose care that new building was to be constructed, Ite had no doubt that evqry just and humane attention would be paid to the cott ifort of the unhappy persons who were doomed togn. habit it. He could not, however, omit that occasion of pointing out distinctly some of the striking evils attached to the present prison. It was locally, and in point cf space, extremely incommodious. The difficulty in the way of a poor prisoner to establish his claim to be admitted to the Poor Ward was al most insuperable, and there was no adequate distinc tion made in the treatment of criminals and pei.inns merely unfortunate. His Lordship gave notice, that unless something effectual towards his object should be effected by his Majesty's Government, in the interim, he should early in the next Session make a specific motion for that purpose. STATt OF HIS MAJEsTY'S HEALTH. . . Earl GROSVENOR moved, that an humble Ad. dress be presented to the Prince Regent, requesting that his Royal Highness would be phased to order that the Report of the Physicians delivered to the Queen's Council he laid before that House. The Earl of LIVERPOOL acceded to the motio n , observing, that if he had not - been anticipated by the Noble Earl, he should have made a similar motion. The motion was of course agreed to by the House. AMOUNT OF THY. ISSUE OF BANK NOTES. The Earl of LAUDERDALE morA, that the accounts lately presented at their Lordships' table, according to order, respecting the issue of Bank notes, be printed.— Ordered. GUINEAS AND BANK•\OTES. The Order of the Day for the third rtading of Earl Stanhope's Bill respecting Guineas and Lauk-notes being read, Earl GROSVENOR rose to express his decided , . . disapprobation of the measure, which he conceived to be in its tendency essentially and deeply injurious to the interests of the country. Upon the first introduc :inn of the Bill, the Noble Secretary of State (Lord Liverpool) opposite, thought professing himself an approver of the principle, appeared to conceive it un necessary, and as such) to oppose it. The same opi nions were expressed by another Minister, and he }eft the Meuse in the confidence that the Bill would, in the first stage of it, be rejected. His astonishmerr. therefore, afterwards was great, on hearing that those very Ministers had afterwards thought fit to promote • the Bill. He, however, must then enter his solemn pretest against it. He should not, indeed, at that period, after the question had been so fully and so ably discussed, take up much of their Lordships' time. lie would briefly suggest, that the only hopeful ' course remaining for Parliament to take, under the neesent circumstances of the country, would be by taking off the Bank restrictions, He justified the act of the Noble Lord (King) in the circular letter to which allusion had been made, and thought that Noble Lord was fu.ly warranted, by the depreciated state of the Bank paper. The Bill before their Lord- ships prolesied not to make Bank paper legal tender, • i but it virtu Lily did so ; and he earnestly conjured ' their Lordships, instead of that light and onsubstan . tial manufacture, the paper invented in 1797, to re , store the solid English oak plank, on which the cre- , dit of the country previi usly rested. He earnestly I i hoped the Bill would not pass into a lass ; for if it did, he ahtadd think that he heard the funeral hell of his country tolling. Lord KING had expected to hear from Ministers some plans:hie arguments, at least in justification 1 the part they had taken on the presert occasion. But it was manifest that their real object was to pre vent the necessity of an open declaration and avowal, that Bank paper had suffered depreciation, and there ore they resorted to a schwa-Inge, which they could not maintain, either theoretically or practically. They I-ad in 'rain attempted to assimilate the in a: :ince in 1797, either in the general circumstances of the country, or the peculiar credit of the Bank, o the present time ; and it was completely idle For them to argue, that because 'a pound rifle I fl is teen good for twenty shillings, it was so it piesent. Nothing could be ;Tit re manifest ;tin that whenever Bank Paper ceased to be answer- I able in Cash, Cash must rise and paper fall ; and all ' attempts to resist that natural and inevitable conse quence would be orily waiting time and legislating in air, unless indeed a Minister or any man should be ound hardy enough, and desperate enough, to .go hat length, threrninons length, to which France Te rmed, in compelling the currency of her turignats— rhe Noble Secietary of State had offered only one eas n or attempted one argument in justification of is conduct, and in that he had shown himself entire . ignorant if the great agricultural interests of the minty. For what security or protection would re- . iaM for Landlords if the Legislature should once (interfere with leases? If they should proceed in "Itch la way, if they should declare Bank-notes ,legali g sin- I der, they would put an end at once to all cAtracts. In short, there wts no other alternative left for the Legislature to adopt than either to restore the cur rency of coin or to resort to the ruinous example of I France. Lord ELDON professed himself to have been a !faithful law servant of the State in the year 1797, j when he took, or joined in recommending, that bold !step 'which since had become the topic of frequent 'controversy and alarm. That step had not been adopted without due deliberation and great reluc tance. But the necessity of the times imperiously called for it ; and the same or a similar necessity ap peared to urge and justify the present measure.— Undoubtedly, as the law stood, the Noble Lord who had issued that circular letter whose contents and 'object bore so closely on the present discussion, might urge the literal fulfilment of the contract he had made with his tenant. He might exact his " pound of !much ;" but in the p r o s ec u tio n of such a pu r p os e !much difficulty would arise, not to the tenant only, jbut, ultimately, to the la n dl or d, wh o , i n th e event o f la well-contested litigation, would be obliged to ac cept those very Bank-notes which he at first so pe lremptorily rejected. Such being the case, he thought that for the peace of society, and the maintenance of social concord, Parliament ought not to separate until some effectual measure should be adopted OH the.sub lject. With respect to the object immediately in view of the Noble Lord, whose circular letter he had A lluded to, he would suppose himself a tenant to that ;Noble Lord for his house in Bedford-square, at £3OO •annual rent. The Noble Lord might demand Gni , neas, but Guineas not being to be had, the next steps to be taken by the Noble Lord would be such as perhaps, considering the wupons and tool: of trade that would be called into use, would give him ulti mately a decided advantage over the Noble Land lord, and on that account, if on no other, he thought the Legislature ought to interpose. The base, heart, and marrow of the bill was to prevent partial depre ciation of a currency essential for the public conveni ence, and to establish that, if that convenience requir ed such a currency, it should pass at its declared value. But the Noble Lord (King), instead of look ing at current circumstances, had been amusing his :leisure with inspecting old contracts, and had not veryc acurately ascertained their bearings on the pre sent times. If the Bill of 1797 was right in its pro visions and its object, the House was called on to support the present 1141, and without such a Bill the tenant, as the law stood, might meet the landlord at arms length, and endless evil and litigation would ensue. The Judges he knew would do their duty in any and all cases which might come before them ; but they must be bounded by the law as it stood. ISuppose he had in 179(3 deposited, what might have been his whole property, £3OOO in Gold at the B-ink, and at the present period, being called rot by his landlord for his house -rent, £C9O, and that Gold for that sum were insisted on, he might go to the Bank, remind the Directors that he bad given them in trust his Guineas, and that then in his need he wanted some of his guineas in return. His application world of necessity be in vain ; and such being the known state of things, it was incumbent on Parliament to come to some rescluti. n'to obviate the inconvenience and the evils reailtint from it, and to secure the pub lic tranquillity, without which all our foreign achieve ments, splendid and triumphant as they were, would appear little and valueless. I Lord GRENVILLE rose, and prcfessed his utter disappointment in the speech of the Noble and Learn ' ed Lord, a speech which left him entirely ignorant tof the intended effect, operation, or meaning of the Bill. The Noble and Learned Lord, indeed, had stated, that there were various modes of obtaining payment, while the Bill stated that it was only to take away the remedy by distress. The question had become, not one confined to landlord and tenant, but extended to all men and to all countries. Painful and astonishing as the Noble and Learned Lord's speech had been to him in one instance, at least it was satis factory, for it set out with boldly declaring, that the Bank restriction was a tight measure. It stated all the evils, the inconvenience and the horrors, of the system, but never once adverted to the injustice of it, or remembered to fix upon the transaction the seal and character Of its pernicious principle. Was the Noble and Learned Lord prepared to answer for the consequences el the Bill ? Was the Nob:e and Learn ed Lord to learn that the maximum in France was de fended precisely in the same manner and by !he same argumeras which he bad used that night ? These aigumetas, indeed, had been adduced in France by persons who were proceeding experimentally, and could not know the consequences ; but the consequen ces, fatal!) proved as they had been, we were puin ing, with the facts before our eyes, the self-same course. The Noble arid Learned Lord had said, that the Act of 1'797 eTected what the present Bill went to establish ; it so, it was high time to come to a right and definite understanding, Especially considering the natural tfExt of the speeches of the Noble Lords oppo. site, and especi ally that ofth. Noble and Leal ned Lord. lie hoped that no other &Terence between debtor and , creditor was meant to be made 1y the prevent that which was implied is the Bill of 1797. That Nil was passed only as a temporary measure, and on the persuasion at that time that it was necessary. Upon the ground only of its behig deemed necessary for the public safety, did he support it then; and he thought it unbecoming the character of a public man not to avow that he was afterwards convinced he formed an erroneous opinion on that occasion, and one that he deeply regietted. It was, however, well known that it was only as a temporary measure that he did support it, and th tt when afterwards the pro position was renewed, it met with his utmost opposi tion, and the Noble and Learned Lord, in contending that the same urgency for such a measure was exist ing, as that which suggested the Act of 1797, was arguing upon a complete fallacy.. 'There was, at that period no diminetion or decay, or even the suspicion of in the public credit, in the situation of the coun try, the finances, the public security, or the bullion. So far from the real credit of the Bank being at that time impaired, the Bank itself, in the year 1798, ap plied to Ministers, and intreated them to take off the restrictions. There did not then appear the least pretence or shadow for its continuance. One small circumstance of difference had•been kept out of view. When the restriction in 1797 took place, ~—. . there :tree no view h the mind of any utast of de preciation ; there vas then no idea of any differ ence ll*tween the value of paper and . 9f geld; and such an equality miglit even still have prevailed, if it had not been for at improvi . t. and boundless waste which •. ; present Ministers • ap peared to think it their glory to pursue: That unhappy propensity of Ministers had become indeed no small addition to the stock of the national cala mities, and no hope seemed left for the country, but a quick departure from' that fatal system, and a return to prudence, economy, and common sense. The an nual expenditure of 90 millions far exceeded our means, and the remedy proposed by the Noble and Learned Lord would only aggravate the evil ninety fold. It was incumbent on the Government to exa mine, step by step, the progress they had made, and carefully to retrace them. Reparation, perhaps, is as impossible; but much good might result from chewing the public that Ministers have some consci ousness of the condition in which they have placed the country. Such was his general view di the subject. The Noble and Learned Lord, in the Mew he took of the relations of debtor and creditor, seemed to forget that while he was anxious to secure the one he was adopting a methoe that must he injurious to teeth. If the powers by which a landlord can claim his rents be found to be unjust, let it be at once distinctly and. explicitly repealed. But their Lordships ought not to sanction what they were afraid to meet openly and fairly. In what a situation was a landlord to be left, i thinkiug (though erroneously) that he had a right to dem.ind of his tenant his rents in stipulated coin ? The Noble Lord, in adverting to the decision of the Judges, observed, that in order to carry his system into effect, this Government had ordered prosecutions upon obsolete statutes, in order to make Bank notes legal tender, and thus, by a side wind, to produce that effect which they were afraid to come to, and propose to that House openly ; and if not greatly mic informed, he understood that that decision of the Judges was unanimously pronounced ; and whatever might be thought otherwise before they were now bound to consider it the law of the country, that Bank notes are no more to he considered a legal pay ment, not sanctioned by the authority of the Govern ment—and that Bank tokens being, as they are, base coin, they arc also unauthorised. He did not mean to say any thing invidious ordisrespectful of the Bank of England, because he regarded the Bank of Eng- land as one ~f the main pillars of the credit and com merce of this country. If their Lordships were to look into those writers upon the subject, if they looked to the various debates in that House, they would find lithat the Bank of England was distinguished from all other Banks in all other countries—those Banks could Inot exist without the interference of the Government, and this was the reason why the Bank of England I flourished, because through her was permitted the I circulation and commerce of the country to flow.— I And it was not to an overplus of paper currency that the present evil was to be attributed, but to the la. vishing waste of the Government ; and with respect to the Bank tokens, they were only of the intrinsic value of the metal which they contained, and when compared with legal coin, were 1-sth less than its nominal value, and all this was sanctioned by the Government. Poll contracts which were made for weeks, for months, and for years, were made with .reference to the coins of the realm, of a known stan dard, and given quantity. Issuing a debased cur. volley, to be taken far its nominal value, was a gross fraud and robbery on all those who had made such contracts, and to whom such payments were made, and the result of all these blind workings must be eventually most calamitous in their effects—and this measure, so far from reducing, must increase those calamities ; and he desired their Lordships to consider whether this Bill did not increase the very evils which it endeavoured to avert. But that there was a difference in the value between paper and gold, and the House of Commons were of opinion that this difference ought not to exist, could not be denied; and tae injustice which followed was not truly ascribed to the year 1797, because the difference in value between paper and gold did not then exist. In this case, as well as the former, the sanction of Government to injustice was attended with considerable calamities ; and the moment they interfered to give an artificial value, and a ferced currency of paper, the consequence must :be a depreciation. He knew this from an experience lin the subject much greater than any individual in that House ; and if this measure was to pm into a ' law, they must szeel their minds not only ag,,inst those, but against still greater calamitis. The 1.,0 R 1) CHANCELLOR shortly explained. Earl STANHOPE thought nu harm io the obser i vation of his Noble Friend (Lord Greuviile) because i it arose from not understanding the difference be- I tween two words, which were generally considered synonimous—value and price. He would putt a case. Suppose two editions of the same book published at different yens, if cue became a scarce edition, to him 1 who was cm ious in his editions of books it might be of eneat value, and he might give a great price for I it, but to him who only wanted these two books to 1 read, he would put the same value upon each ; thus it was a nre:e squabble about the words value and price. But his Noble Friend argued this question cerr.rinly irs well as he could, and because he enter -1 tained an opinion that it was not a legal tender, that the Bank notes were depreciated, and the coin de based, and therefore, that this measure was a gross fraud and robbery. Ee should also argue the ques tion as well as he could, and say it was no such thing, Suppose he went to his banker's with 20 Guineas in one hand, and E2l in Bank notes in the other, and desired credit for them, he would enter them on his fleas as E2l each—then the banker's opinion must be that they were of equal value, and give credit in his books as such. But the Noble Lord wanted a legal definition of this opinion. Nuw he would give them a definition that should shake them to their founda tion—that. things which are equal, am equal to one another. How then, could any man say that the pub lic cre‘lr.or was to be told that this was a depreciated paper and a base coin, and that he was guilty of fraud and robbery ? was it not the duty of his Noble Friend, who was Minister at the time the Dank stop ped payment, to prevent this very system, and was he not guilty of fraud and robbery ? He considered the law prohibiting the exportation of guineas an ab surd law, which should be expunged from the Statute Books, as he thought Guineas might be exported as well as any ether commodity. It was his fate for nine years of his_ life to live in a litde place which had its r-- _:---___ _______ _. .. .7 - - , (interfere with leases? If they should proceed P FP111111111111111111111111111111.111111111111111.11111.1 SECONDE - 1 : )1110 - N. with ADDITIONS. u'irin - if they should declare Bank-notes' kc own coin (Geneva), and this cora was called pis toles, and at one time scarce a single pistole wai to be seen, and the only coin in circulation wit gold Louis d'ors, and the silver was Spanish pieces. —He met a very ingenious learned Banker, and asked him how it was that so few of those pieces were to be seen ; be said, the watchmakers melted it down, but some ingenious fellow found out a me. thod of mixing them with emery, and the Magis trates wishing to keep this coin in the country, adopted the plan, and then the watchmakers could not be persuaded to put it into their melting pots ; bot some other ingenious man found out a meth'd of ex tracting the ore from the other, and they again began to melt it. But he contended, that there was no de preciation of paper, and in order to shew that there was, allusions were made to the fate of the arsigwatt of France, but there the country was deluged with them, and somebody (he could not say whom, nor would he say that the Ministers had any hand in it) forged a quantity of them, and the . country was deluged with such a profusion of them, that there was nothing ' to be got btat had a:signals, and that was the occasion of all the mischief. But it was said that the price cf corn and sheep was altered by the depreciation of paper, no such Thing ; the price altered according to the demand, and this, therefore, was all error and mistake. But his Nrrble Friend a'kcd -here was his rertiedy, that they must retrace their steps ? Suppose a man set his house on fire, and the flame reached the Minister's lionise, and he sayS, U fire, you must go back, you must retrace your steps—(4 lcugh).—He heard somebody, who may bo Minister hereafter, sav something , somewhere, that the cottntry was not able to meet its engagements ; it Amid be his care that the country should mept its engagements, and this view he prpo:,ed the pre , ent measure. Lord GREY, in explanation of what fell from Lim on a fcirmer day, in allusir,n to the cbscrvation of dte Noble Earl, denied he had made such an assertion in that unqnahfied way ; and when his Noble Friend did allude to what fell from him, he should have stated it with these certain qualifications. What he had said was, that the public might not be able to fulfil all its engagements. He had stated his belief that) if there did exist any danger, that danger would require firm measures, of a descriptir.n similar to that which the Noble Lord now brought forward, and he begged, when his Noble Friend next quoted him, he would state it as he had stated it. Lord STANHOPE resumed.—He thought the public creditor had a right to be paid in preference to the landholder; his object was to protect individuals, to protect the public creditor, to protect the tenant, and to protect the landholder. e had been the ad. vacate and supporter of the Abolition of :he Slave Trade, as the cause of justice; he supported the Ca. tholic question, as the cause of justice; he now sup ported the public creditor, the tenant, and the land, holder, as the cause of justice. Lord GRENVILLE, in reply to what fell from the Noble Lord respecting France being do luged by forged a:signets, took upon himself to answer, know. ing what the fact was. He denied the existence of such a fact, and declared it to be a foul misrepresen tation. Nu such act could have been done by the King's Ministers of that day, either by their surges, tion, or without his concurrence and knowledge ; and he solemnly declared, in the lace of Almighty Goo, that he and they were innocent of such a charge; and he declared, that n it only those with whom he had acted, but those against whom he almost uni formly acted, were clearly innocent et such a crime. Lord HOLLAND considered to is measure to have produced a mental earthquake, not merely in that House, but throughout the country ; lie conceived it a great innovation upon the existing laws, and most mischievous in its consequences. He gave ;is N.bie Friend full credit for his sincerity in supporting the se•:eral subjects he had alluded to, and up• in those to pics he could not hut recollect that the Noble Lords opposite always treated his Noble Friend as a specu latist ; but when he came forward with this question, and .eitliongli he stated that this bill was not his only object, but that he had ulterior objects in view, they were so.willing to step forward in his support, those wit.) were at all lther times such enemies to innova tion, had no further apprehensions of his speculations, but immediately adopted it, and what was the conse quence ? The Noble Lords began to introduce clauses and make amendments until all tht original bill was obliterated and nothing left of it but the enacting clause, all the remainder was merely superstructure and excrescence. One Noble and Learned Lord had said (Lord Redesdale) that it shoui.l be a declara tory bill, because all the Judges in the land had, with. in a few days, declared the law to b otherwise. His Noble Friend had stated a case, tit his paying to his banker 21 guineas and 21 pounds, but this case did not at all bear upon the question, because guineas were not to be had, the Jews having FLAsessed them selves of all that could be got. In his opinion the chief and primary cause of all those evils was the re striction of cash payments at the Bank ; the remedy he should propose was, that the casili payments should be resumed, be did not mean suddenly, but gradually; what he wanted was to have bank notes convertible at sight into cash, at the option of the party, and for this purpose he should propose that the Bank should resume its cash payments in a, year, or any other g:ven time, and that in the mean time they should limit the payment of dividends, in order to secure the public creditor. For which purpose he proposed, as an Amendment, that " As long as this Act shall continue, and until the Restriction Act should expire, that the Bank of England should not pay more than a certain portion of their dividends on stock, and that the remainder should accumulate for the security of the public creditor;',t_. Lord HA RROWBY askei the Honourable Mem bers, w%at were the means by which w. were to draw gold from the Continent ? Why, by sending them a greater quantity of our goods than now, than which nothing could tend niore to the accomplish ment of all that Bonaparte could wish. He very much deprecated the withdrawing our troops frrm the Peninsula—from a country which, exposed to the most terrible evils, seemed to gain a diurnal acces sion of health and vigour beneath the pressure ; by the fostering of which, we ourselves had gained a de gree of glory which no man wha possessed a heart could contemplate without the most grateful emotions. Lord LAUDERDALE observed, that the law would be totally inefficient with respect to all con tracts de futura. It was a principle of logiOation, .0 Is is d es S. Id :it C- -111 ntit Lei t l . „