Star. — London, England, 1807-04-10 00:00:00

tional, was not the foliciting an addrefs or petition, but the ufe that was made of his Majelly's name to procure it.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER re fumed his fpeech. He was glad the Right Hon. Gen tleman had interrupted him, as he would much rather have his Hate ment correded, than perfift in an error. He allowed that it was highly unconftitutional to make tfe of his Majelly's name in that Houfe, for the pur pofe of influencing Members in their votes; but he could not fee that there was any thing fo uncon flitutional, in making ufe of it for the purpofe of procuring an addrefs or petition. In order to rave the time of the Houfe, he fhould not go into any length in dircuffing either the merits of the late Adminia ra tion, or of the difgraced [late (as it was called) of the prefent. If he were to enter upon that fubjed, it Would not only take up an evening, but the greater part of the Sefton, to difcufs again the merits of thofe meafures, which had already been fo often dif cuffed. He could nor, however, confine himfelf to the mere words of the Motion. The propofition, which was now fubmitted to the Houfe, was merely abarad, and which it would be idle todircurs by itfelf. It MA be taken (as confefred by the Mover of it) as connefted with all the circumflances of the cafe; it mull be confidered, not only what was expreffed in the words of the motion, but alfo what was intended and implied by it ; and if the circumflancea by no /twang juftified what was implied by it, he mutt oppofe it. The firtl thing which was meant to be implied by it was a fort of cenfure upon his Majefly for his conduit in diforiffing his late Minitlers, and in the circumflances which led to that difmiffal.--. This was a propofition to which he could never confenr, both as he thought it indecent to bring the King in a manner before the bar of that Houfe, and becaufe he thought nothing could be more unfair than to decide upon a cafe where they had no ma terials to go upon, except the Ratement of one of the parties. There was another thing, which was meant to he implied in this Refolution. and which he could Rester admit, namely, that his Majetly's prefent Mi nitters had, upon their coming into office, given any pledge, either expreffed or implied, that they would abflarn from propofing any particular meafures. It would be an extraordinary way Weed of difcuffing this quellion, to 114 it of all thofe circuinflances which were fo materially connefted with it, and to confider it as a mere abftra& queftion, which might be true in general terms, and yet which s ould not at all apply to that motion of which notice had been given, nor to the real merits cf the cafe. If this refolution could not be fairly conftrued as meaning any thing but a vote of cenfure, it would be manifeflly unjutt to pars refoluticns that refleded on the conduit of any individual in the country, without having at leaft heard the cafe Rated on the other fide. If this would be unjutt in the cafe of the humbleft individual, how much more unjutt and indecent was it in the cafe of our beloved Sovereign! Was it right that he fhould be brought before the Bar of the Houfe, and his conduit examined there ? (loud cria, No, no, his aelvifers only). As to thofe fecret advifers, which Gentlemen pleafe to.affume, merely for the purpofe of Parliamentary debate, as far as his knowledge and belief went, his Majetty had no Such advifers, but afted purely from the didates of his own mind. (Crier of Hear! Hear!) He did not mean to Cay, that in the difmitral of his former Miniflers, or in the formation of a new Ad miniaration, he was without advifers : but he meant to fay, that in requiring a written pledge from his late Minitters, he acted purely from the fuggettions of his own mind. He was lure, when he Hated this, that the Houfe and the country would be fully con vinced, that he had, in point of fad, none of thofe fecret advifers which were fuppofed by thofe who brought forward the prefek 1 1 ‘1 , aian. When the dilmiffal of Miniflers was abfolutely refolved on, then certainly his Majelly did confult with other per. Eons, about the formation cf a new Adminiftration. —ln the confederation of the circumaances conneded with the pledges demanded, the time fhould be divi• ded into three diltinft periods. The firft was, that prior To the introdudion of the Bill ;, the fecond, after its introdudion, and prior to its being withdrawn ; and the third, fubrequent to its being withdrawn. As to the firft period, his Majefly mull have con& tiered it to be the intention of his Miniflers, merely to bring in fuch a Bill as would sorry into full effed the intention of the Aft of 1793. This conceffion was granted by his Majefly with great reludance, and merely upon his Minitters pofitively afferting it to be a meafure .of the molt indifpenfible neeeflity. Thole who brought in the gill had inferred feveral words, which enlarged the terms 'Of it far beyond 'the Aft of 1793. In that Ad the 'word 4 ' Corn soigioiers was mentioned, which clearly did not Itpply to the appointment upon the Staff. In 'the BM, ifoirevcr i introduced by the Noble Lord (Howick) not only the word Commillimis" was • tared, hut warrants and appointments. When his Majef tyatrithdrew his content to any Bill which wentfarther than the Aft of 1793, but agreed to a Bill exactly to that extent, he expreffed a hope, that his forbear. mice in this refpeft would have the died of prevent ing his being again applied to on the fubjeft of farther conceffions, as his mind was unalterably made up upon that rubjeft." Indeed it was impoffible to (up. pole that his Majefly could have conceived the mea lure, when propofed to him, as going any thingbeyond the Aft of '793. It did not even appear that the pro pofers of it meant that it fhould go farther; for when an Honourable General moved for a delay of only two days, on the principle of its being neceffary that the Iriffi Members fhould be prefent, a Right Ho nourable Baronet (Sir JOHN NEWPORT) raid, that that was quite unneceffary, as the hills Gentlemen could have no objeftions, inafmuch as it was nothing more than what was already law in Ireland. There were alfo no lefs than three of the Cabinet Miniflers who confidered it in the fame light, and who oppofed it, when they found what was the nature of the Bill [.el cry of no, non He raid he had conceived that Lords Erfkine, Ellenttorough, and Sidmouth had oppofed it. One of thole Miniflers (Lord Erfkine) appeared not evento have been fummoned to the Cabinet at the time that the meafure was dircuired previous to its being propofed. This was indeed a molt extraordinary cit.- cumaance--that the Lord Chancellor, who by his office is fuppofed peculiarly the keeper of the King's confeience, fhould not be fummoned npon a queftion where it wa; necelLo y to addrefs diredly the con fcience of the Sovereign, and to endeavour to remove the fcruples which exited in the Royal mind. It Amused ltrange, that the diffeating Members cf tht Cabinet iltOrdd nut be TurnMoned as well as the eOll - Members. It was clear that the mode of en lightening the confcience of the Sovereign was to al low him to partake of the advicewhich could be given on the fubjeet by thole Members of the Cabinet who law the, fubjed in a different point of view front what thole did who propofed it. It then certainly appeared that the idea of the Noble Lord who had propofed it was mifunderftood by feveral of his own colleagues. It was rrifunderfiood alfo by Mr. Elliott, the Ira Secretary, as well as by the Catholics. Under thefe circumfiances, it could not but be tuppofed that his Majelty alfo mifundertlood it. The fecond period was after the withdrawing the Bill. Abort 3d of March, difpatches were received from Ireland, which Rated as the opinion of the Lord Lieutenant. and of the .Chancellor of Ireland, that the concefliqns in that Bill would neither fatisfy nor conciliate the Catholics in general, nor prevent them from bring ing forward their petition, claiming oenetally an equality in all things with the other chafes of his Majelty's fubjed , s. He therefore law from this what , little effect thofe conceffions would have in the way of conciliation, and that additional claims would grow out of any relaxation of the laws .with refped to Catholics. He did not intend by any means to charge the Noble Lord (Howick) or his colleagues with intentionally deceiving the King ; but he did mean to ; charge them with great negligence, in not informing I themfelves of the extent of his Majesty's temples, and j great want of perfpicuity in explaining their own meaning. When they did underhand the full objec tions of his Majefty, then they refilved to abandon t the Bill altogether, which was an ad that he could not but altogether difapprove of. It teemed Itrange that thofe who were to ttrid and excel about other conftitutional points,' fhould confider it a Sacrifice of private feelings to public duty, to abandon a meafure which they had propofed as one of the molt indif penfable neceflity. And yet this was the light in which they reprefented it in the minute which they fent to the King,and in which they claimed the right of renew ing the fubjed from time totime, whenever they fhould think proper. The late Minifters, therefore, placed themfelves in a molt unconflitutional point of view, and they placed the Crown in a molt extraordinay and degraded fituation. What would have been the fituation of the Crown, if, after having been deceived once, his Majetly was always to remain in fear of being furprized into giving his content to mea fures of which he could not approve ? The late Mini tiers knew that it was not a mere 'foie opinion which his Majefty had lightly adopted, but that it was the unalterable and fixed principle of his mind. What advantage could theythen exped, in bringing forward meafures in Pal liament, which they were Pure would never gain the Royal approbation ? This could an fwer no purpofe but to give pain to his mind, and caufe the appearance of a quarrel between hint and his Parliament. Under thole circumftances, what was the pledge demanded of them, or what 'dan ger could refult from it ? They were only alked not to perfevere in bringing forward meafures which never would receive the Royal approbation. If they did not chhofe to give this affurance, and if his Ma jelly had the undoubted prerogative of changing his Minifters, he elf° mull be allowed to be the only judge upon what points he thinks proper to difrnifs an Adminiftration. The pledge however was not in the &ft inflance required by his Majefty ; but his Minifters ha required of him to give implied pledges aod ftipulations that he would allow them from time to time to renew queftions, diftrefling to his private feelings and to his confcience. It was when this pledge and Pipulation were demanded of I him, that he found he could not accept of it, and demanded that they fhould withdraw the latter part of their minute, and give an affurance in writing, that they would not again bring forward this queftion. As to this pledge, it wat not to affe& them as Mem bers of Parliament, but merely as his fervants. He told them that this was a fubjed upon which his mind could never change; and in addition to the reply he gave to the Cabinet minute, he Aced, in a note to Lord Grenville, that they fhould give him an afforance in writing, that they would not again bring on this bufinefs. if they would nut give the affurance required, they might and ought to have withdrawn from his fervice. There certainly never was, nor could be, any pledge or Ripulation for the perpetuity of their Adminifiration. After they had conceded fo far to the feelings of their Sovereign, as to aban don a meafure which they thought abfolutely need . - fary, he did not fee why they might not have conce ded a little farther, and either given that affurance, or.elfe withdrawn from his fervice. For his part, he did conceive, that the meditated conceffions would be ruinous to the eflablifhment of the Proteßant Religion in Ireland ; and he was not afhamed to fay, that he was fo attached to the principles of the darker ape, of the Reformation, and the Revolu tion, that he did conceive that the Protellant Re. ligion of this country was the great caufe of all its profperity. He thought the meafure was brought forsgard by the Noble Lord on moll impolitic grounds, when he Rated that it was be. caufe ferrous dillurbances exified in Ireland:— What was this but to tell the people there, that difturbances were the means by' which alone they were to gain conceOlons ? And, becaufe there were difturbances amongft the lowell order of Ca tholics, therefore the remedy that was propofed was to do fomething to fatisfy the higher orders, whole loyalty had hitherto been In much boated of. He would nor, however, give much for that fpecies of loyalty that would not exert itfelf for the fupprellfion of fuch difturbances without a boon. 'l'o the lower order of Catholics every thing had been already granted, and therefore he did not underfland the mode of conciliation that was propofed, and raw no probability of its producing the area. His opinion on the contrary was, that the time to give favours was not either during dilturbances, or immediately after. - them, but he fhould rather wait until a long period of tranquillity had elapkd, and their loyalty had been better proved. Some Gentlemen Rated, that now the Catholics were to be delivered up to intolerant per fecution : he believed, however, that there was no one who knew him that believed him to be- poffefred of a very perfenting fpirit, and he hoped that in his heart he felt thofe charities which religion &dates. Before be fat down, he Should fag aword or two as to the implied pledge which it was fowled the pre. fent Minillers had given. He uttetk denied that there was any fuck pledge given, andrft by no means followed, that bccaufe his ilajefly chafe to curtife - his undoubted prerogative in difmiding one fet of Minifters, that nobody elfe Ihould content to come forward to the fervice 4 the State. Mr. GRATTAN faid, the Bill aphich was the im mediate milt of the dila:dal of his Makity's latel Minillry, had his entir e approbation, as he thought thereby we fhonld have combined the phyfical with the intelle&ual force of the empire. The queltion now under the • conlideration of the Houle tn*.i.ht very properly be divided into two heads ; firfl, the conduit of'the late Miniflers in refpeit to the Catho lics; fecondly, their conduit relative to his Mgjefly. The great object, as to the Catholics, was, that the BO lately brought into the Houfe by the Noble Lord near him, had been promifed to Ireland more than thirteen years ago ; and the particular reafon given was, that the Ira Officer in England might be on a fimilar footing with the Englifh Officer, and it was certainly no more than jtillice that it (tumid be fo The Right Honourable Gentleman bad laid, that the objection had been attended to and remedied by the Mutiny Bill ; but that in fail was not the cafe, and it was certainly very wrong to have left the hint officer, in cafe of; his coming into this country, liable to the penalty of five hundred pounds for attending his regiment in defence of it ; and a flill further and, more galling clilfatisfailion, that lie could not bring any fait, nor be entitled to that proteition of the law, of which every other *defcripti,o of perfons equally enjoyed the benefit. The fecond objection was that of the common men, who were rendered liable to the greateft difficulties and the feverelt difabilities. They were compelled' to go to church, and prohibited from attending mafs, by which we made the Proteflant religion the t -rmentor of the Roman Catholic fuldier, and his own religion the engine of his punifhment.— For his own part, he was free to own he did not poffefs that agonVzing forefight which could fee the ruin of the church in our having a Roman Catholic Staff Officer ; and he feared, if we continued to pro ceed on that idea, we might avoid dangers that were only imaginary, but fhould certainly incur thole that were real. The Bill was part of the national defence, and the quellion was, whether they thould continue to impofe difabilities, which operated not merely on the Roman Catholics, but greatly to the difadvantage of the whole Empire ? The objections Rated by the Right Honourable Gentleman were fironger as to the principle of the Bill, than to the Bill Well. He feemed to think that the principle of the Bill tended to fubvert and overturn the efiablithed church. In this he differed with him altogether, for he confidered the principle of the Bill as calculated to loften and mitigate the afperity of religious prejudices, to amal gamate and blend the jarring opinions of men, pro feffing different religious perfuafions, and to unite them' all in one common bond of union, fo that they Might aft together freely and heartily in the defence of the whole empire? To effect this would, in his opi nion, fecure the ellablifhed Church on the molt permanent foundation, by a union of all men of all religious opinions, without which he feared the empire could not be long preferved. The principle of the Bill went to give the Catholics of Ireland a participa tion in the defence of the country, by enabling them to enjoy commiffions in the army and navy, and to thew them that they were in future to be placed on a more liberal footing with regard to the law. The Right Hon. Gentleman had argued, that it was not in human nature for the Roman Catholics to be con tented wilt what was granted them by the Bill ; but the fag was, the Right Hon. Gentleman millook hu man nature, tubltituted for it a cafuittical argument, and then debated human nature to make it fabler vient to his own cafuiltry. The Right Hon. Gentle man had talked of the Roman Catholics wanting to eftahlith high, rank in the orders of their religion, and to have magnificent Bithops. How they were to do this he could not tell, unlefs they were to get the French to make Irith Bithops rich, who had already made French Bithops poor. The Right Honourable Gentleman and others had laid, that the Roman Catholics in Ireland were diffatisfied. As to that, he would not deny they might be fo at particular periods of time. He had known them to be foinet . mes fatisfied, and fometimes the contrary. They were' fatisfied, he laid, when the Adminiftration was fuch as purfued a fy Item of lenity and did not harrafs them with difabilities, they were diffat bled when a contrary ( conduit was obferved towards them. In 1793, they were highly fatisfied with what was done in their be half. He would not fay they were fo at another period, when they had been perfecuted for no greater offence than the great and mighty crime of prefenting a Petition. , There was an inftance on record, where two inen in the county of Wexford were, for the crime of prefenting a petition, indicted and brought to trial ; and when the witneffes came to be heard againft them, the Judge deilared from the Bench, that every one of them ought be profecuted. If they were to treat the Catholics in Ireland in the way they had been treat ed by the lateMinitters, theywould be greatly fatisfied. He would not fay they would be altogther fatisfied without power, but they would fo far be fatisfied as to fight the French, which it what is very much to be defired. By conceding to them the advantages dim y waushl hate.* lierirecli Aviv. %he bac rt gave them what he might call with the poet—" the pride, pomp, and circumfiance of glorious war." It made them in Come fort congenial with ourfelves, and thereby gave them an enthufiafm which they could not, under the rodent circumliances, be fuppofed to poffefs. The Catholics, he Paid, had been remarkable for their hiyalty ; in proof of which he cited the pre ambles of the A& of the. 14th of the King, and (eve ral others, which feverally went to that elle& It had been Paid that we ought to be careful in preferving the acquifitions of the Church, and that by favouring the Catholics we thould injure the Church. His anfwer to that was, that formerty whet) the Protef tants were engaged againft the Catholics, the difputes were altogether between therpfelve3 ; but now the French were engaged againit the whole, and againft that common enemy all hackto contend. If they were joined with the Catholics, tote was every favr urable profpeft and probability thaethey would conquer ; if on the contrary, they , fought without them, and ihnuld be beaten in the battle, they would not be beaten by the Catholics, but by their own prejudices, which de prived them of their alEltaoce. Thefe circumfiances deferved the molt ferious and attentive confiderati , .n. It had been (aid that his Majelly had been deceived at to the Ifiture, operation, and extent of the Bill in quetlion. He was at a lots to find out how this could be. It appeared that on the ad of March, the j fent all the claufits io the Bill for his Ma. jelly's perufal, and they were afterwarcli returned to them without any objeaion. The Bill was then given up; In that there could be no deception of hi. Me jelly on that point. With refired in the pledge, it was impodible they could accede to it, without in curring the greated diforace. They mull have re flounced the principles of the whole of their former lite. They mud have reli. - arifhed the off - 1;o... of Cow'. cillors and the high char after of Statefmen, and have become the mere tools of falary. If tied up not to prevent their bufinefs to the King, they gave up what former Miniflers had never done; for many privileges had been granted to the Ca tholics, which they had petitioned for at various periods of time and been denied. but which privi leges had, at a fubfequent period, been granted to them. For this various reafons might be according to the different circumflances of the times. He would fuppofe a French army fhould be landed in Ireland : would it not be natural to fuppofe, that prir ileges might then be granted which had previonfly been retufed ? Minitlers, in pleJging thernfelves not to bring the cafe of the Catholics under the confidera duo of his Majefly, w odd have forfeited their duty as Officers, and their principles as Statefmen He entirely approved the concluft of the late Minifler, becaufe he thought it chit. of a great datefman. He had teen the effeas of a former Adminiftrati rri, whole condua had been different towards the Catbor• again% whom the peels in Ireland was continually loaded with points and paragraphs, which were good compofition, bat bad ferric, till they - flung and goaded the people almod to madnefe. If we joined lain with the Catholics, we fhould fight againtt ourfelves. If we world do well, we Ihould keep in mind that there is but one enemy, which is till French ; and that our belt defence againft that enemy was our own unanimity. He well knew that the Catholics of Ireland did not diflike the Proteftant people of England ; and he hoped the Englilh people would not infult the religion of the Irifh Catholics. He admired the late Miniftry for the mildnefs of the condua they had purfued in confequence of the infurreflions which had occurred in the Weft of Ireland. It had been produaive of the happieft effeas, by putting a fpeedy end to them, without applying to the military for their affiftance. He had before admired Lord Hardwicke for a fimilar pro ceeding, who, inftead of letting flip the dogs of war, had fent for the Judges into the different difturbeci counties, and put an end to the difturbances by the fair, impartial, and equal hand of the law. If he were to fay how he thought Ireland ought to be treated, he would advife that the utmoff leniency fhould be obferved. He would make tolerance the rule and guide of his condua : he would tell the Irifh Catho. lies, what he hoped the vote of this night would affure them of, that they had not only a root in Eng. land, but a root alfo in that Houle ; and by thole means, be had no doubt, that whatever might be the event of the creflion, the two nations would be united as one, and the integrity of the empire eflabliffied., Dotior DUIGENAN began by dating, that it had been faid by feveral Honourable Gentlemen, on different occafions, that the greater part of the Army and Navy of this country confided of Hill Catholics. —He denied fuch to be the fad ; and infitled that thofe Itithmen who were in our Army and Navy were madly, if not all, Protedants. It had alto been laid, that there were four millions of Catholics in Ireland ; but this ffatement was equally fallacious with the other ; for the whole population of that country amounted-only to three millions and a halL The Protedants were in proportion to the Catholics, as two to three in number ; and in property, as fifty to one. The Houle had been told, that the Roman Catholics would be fatisfied if it gave them the ad vantages of (crying In the Army and Navy, as in- tended by the late Bill. He would tell the Hoare when the Roman Catholics would be fatisfied--If this country were given up to them; and they were fuf fered to plunder and deftroy all the property in it, they might then perhaps be content. They had at all times, and on every occafion, evinced a marked inve teracy againd the Protellante ; and in the infurrec thins of 1798, they had, at the very outfit of the fo prepared their fchemes, that they aitually deftroyed 500 Protefiants in cold blood, in the coutfe of a (port time. They had burnt 180 in one barn, and committed every a& of cruelty that could well be imagined. Many of them had been confined in prifonslor a length of time; and after being libera• ted, had been found jo be the moft aftive abettors and fupporters of the very next difturbancet that had happened. According to the late Miniders late bill, thee men might be Commanders in Chief in the army, and Admirals of the fleets of this country, whole daggers were yet red with the blood of their Protef tant brethren. It was impoffible to admit Roman Catholics to any portion of civil power ; for they had a temporal power mixed with their civikand cede& aftical ellablifhment, which they lodged in the hands - and fupremacy of a foreign power, who is at this time under the rule and direction of. Bonaparte. who norni. Dates the Bifhop,.and he the Prieft. There was at this moment an army in Ireland in the pay of Bonaparte. Tientitmen tented or'conciliating the higher orders of the Roman Catholics. Who were the higher orders He knew not where to find them. He was Pure there were not forty Roman Catholic Gentlemen in Ireland of roool. a year each. In order to make thofe con ceffions to the Roman Catholics of Ireland, which were intended to be given by the late Bill, there mull be a repeal of the Telt Aft, and of all other Atts again( the Catholics. Yet Gentlemen went on to fay, that this would not endanger the ettabliffied Church. What had already been the coofequence I When the account of this Bill arrived ip Ireland, the Roman Catholics called a public meeting, and Mr. Keogh laughed to (corn the whole of the meafure, as trot containing enough of conceffion ; and in raeoacrog terms.• declared they would have all, or none. If t h e powers given to LordCornw all ~ to Lord Hardwicke, and to the Duke of Bedford, he believed alfo, were continued, and proper powers by them delegated to th e Magillrates, he would engage there would be no rebellion in Ireland. There had been men aces o f re hellion, but there would be none. The l ower or d er of the Roman Catholics who had been guar of dif. jurbances, had neither leaders, agns, nor property. He knew them well. He had lived all his life in Ireland, and had been in every part of it. Ifa French army were landed in Ireland, he believed they would join it, to a man. There had now been an impudent convention demand—nay, a dirermenace, in calls their peition was not complied with. This he co n - fl