Star. — London, England, 1807-07-28 00:00:00

rt e thnoteht, however, that the heft pretaratinn we e auld m 'se was, p:ace and rtninn at home, peace in or dependencies, but above all, peace in Ireland.— , He' c roletee! that the word .‘ peace" in Ireland v .onld rt , more fervice to the empire than inereafing 1 1 e itia by eo,e4tea wren. It would procure us onn.,bers of realistic reeptit, that ate tow preven. ee l. + 1 a vat iety of (+Wade:, from elite' :rig into our fervice As to foreign peace, he hoped that no Nli. Mit uld omit any favourable neporttinity that ntieht prefent itfelf for the relloratian of it. Conti e e ting that the prefent fylle'n militated A gaitill the elan of his Right Hon. Ft iend (Mr. Windham) which he ,va c o-Ninced was fofficient for the fnpply of our arrey, he mull give it his operfrtion. Ir. See•etary CANNING would certainly avail 'eiinfelf of the referve permitted by the Halloo able Gentleman in what he had laid, with a view to irn ',refs upon his Majelly.'s Miniflers the defirahlenerc of . peace He would not give any anfwet to w h at the Hononrehle Gentleman had Paid on that head, brit to v"iid mike tile of i'te Han •toodale Gentle_ man's trinc i oles, to chew "how e•toti:riiaory was his le:atoning. lie Honomabie Getelenian•hoped there was.nn itnlilptcoion to ti eat, tha• it was nn dereliaioti in c astrell, nn 111;mi:tali 'n in el:. fe it. One thing mot , be clear, however, tc the Honourable Gentle. man, that whether the event fit aild be that we fhould have to treat in tongue'' or in defeat, we thould put our force on the moll relpea title fon , ing, to enable ns to treat with dignity, upon the feeling that we would have the means ni fairly in our hands, what• eve' tray be the event r f the negetia•lon. Without ftich a recut ity, we could neither accept nor offer any piopelitions. Having to do with a power which had fihtined all En , npe, and had now no check but what England afforded, it was the more necelhry to make this exertion to provide for our fafety, and how then could it he contended, that the prefent was no evner gency? The Honourable Gentleman, with a cautions logic concealed theft: flas in the beginning, and then I, r t h e m out at the dole, when he had Itimfell pro,- bahly forgotten the inferences that were fo obvioufly to he deduced lieu) them. If the Hnn. Gentleman fait! the ,prifette - ip.iiiter y means were (efficient, he ehfrered frnm hiS .Right Honourable Friend (NI: . Wi n dham) the elittt tet e sahole plan was to procu r e a large increafe or milittiryArezegth, but not a fuffi• cient increafe to meet arty fucking exigency. • The increafe under that plan was to be gradual ana ero• gteffive, but it was not necefTary to demontuate that it was not calculated to meet any extraordinary emergency, for that was univerfally :Mowed. It was very unjuttly :aimed, that the prefent plan was levelled at that of the R.ght Honourable Gentleman, (Mr Windham). In anfwcr to the inquiry whether the prefent Islitsitlers hail this or any change in cr rt. temptation when they came into t ffice, he wonld fay, that ',hough in their former opirions of the Right Hon. Gentleman's plan, they did not think fnch an immediate proceeding was or would be called for. Thengh they were not blind to the events that may be apprehentleal, yet they did not Int efee the extent and rapidity of the rum that had overrun the Continent : they thought the c: ntefl might have been continued •o the falvatinn of thole now involved in ruin, and to the falvatinn of Europe. The plan that was in force termed in that cafe fitfficient fur the time ; and the example let by the late Minillers, he meant an example of the kind always let by them, an 9.3 mple to be avoided rather than followed, in dtred the' relent Mieigers to allow the existing plan to remain nod:Roared, at teal', till it thould have had a fair trial. This was the more neeelfrry, as it was fore lien, that if any lien Ilionld be taken fa as to it ter fete with the Right Hon. Gentleman's plan in t h e nightelt denrce, the Right Henotoabie Gentle• nom wt old declare, as he had lince declared, that the change mull produce failure, and walls his hands of the c onlegnence , . Ile confeffed three was an nnteil• Inignefs to give the Right lion. Gentleman that ad vantage. The Right I Innunrable Gentleman wo of,' not, he was lute, deny die exigency of the ocealion ; fo r evetv wend of the Right Hon. Gentleman's (perch went to wove that exigency. The general opinion concurred that the exigency was of the moll tit gent natn. e, and if the I lonottrable Gtntlemail who fordo: Lill, was of a Jiff-nett opinion, lie m a y reii alThred he was tingle iii holding it. I', therefore, the e m e rgency did mit, it was for his Ma)efte's Miniflets to ex mine, what meafore was bell eaten lated to meet it, and it was for the 11. ole tai decide, • whether or not his Islajetly's Islioilers had feleaed the plan bet adapted for that put pie Through the whrele of the Right Honourable Gentleman's feerch, he had confounded two things, lac isret ler• vice in the feele of r &relive ter vice, anti lot eign ler vice limply confileted. lie was flirptire i its hear the Rie t lion. Gentleman fay, that the rae:ical mif take of Nable Friend's plan, was that it went In mach to provide for foreign let vice, arguing a; if foteign let vice mull needlatily be (-trent - rye Et vice; he was furptifed to hear the cnmparifon that had Lien made of emergency in the year t See, and at the prefent period. We were now in a very odd ent Cana lion from that in which we then we• e, in regard ro our foreign poffeffions; we had the Cape of Gored Hope, South America, Sicily, and that detachment 'torn Sicily,Alexandlia, of the propriety r f tvhich,he would, sr that moment, ;zit cno (shii to 'the cultodeof thee places had devolved on the reedit Adminittra•ion horn their predeet.fiors, and they mull provide fur their fecutity. How ?by troops railed for Int eign letvict ; not for t ffetdive lot ian let vice, but loch troops, whore waste of ettlill nt vv (tole give Goiter:i ntent the power r f fending them out a the kingdom . le the number of men requisite for gartiltuirg reign flations in i 0.3, and the number now requifite there was a diffetenee of at kali eo,coo. Whether e ptefer ved f. ns t o pe reel uit y, or whe titer we preferved them fir the put ;tole or obtainiug better tetms of peace—in eith-) cafe they mull be kept in (tidy. Bete then wis the pl tin rea'on why the meafure of 18..e3 wrtuld not be efficient at the prefent day. Ame :late which railed men on the condition that they wets not IC I.Ctilfe out or the Bri• tifh Mends, would nit :vower the exigency of thee prefent tnement, which led to a ;odes ence of an in creafe in the teguler and e:ifly !Aisle, tattier than in the home twee. It t ern ,iced tLc. f tie only to be confide..:!, whether it was be tiet coact ihe di redly tot the army, bt.on the iccpliied addi• lion by the milt other n•eans of i •pid arid fuccefs ful levy that atiefented i•trlf. lie allowed that the Right Hon. Gentleman's plan mud necelfarilv (idler ft me inlet lUi.1.601:1 Airq for the cushier) augmentation df our Regular Fofee: but he con tended that the Right Hon. Gentleman was incon tinent in Owing; while he objected to any interrup• tion of his plan, that he would prefer a ballot for an Army of Reaukve to a ballot for the Militia, Ivl I•ugh it moll he evident, that by th e fo r m er ' h i s. plan would he interrupted in the greaten poni e nl e deg ree ; there realms :—in profecuting that ano malous rnea lure, the bounties would he railed to a Much greater extent than by balloting for the Militia ;. a fecond rival would be railed to the regular recruiting; the ball tt fur the Army of Referve, having totally expired, while the ballot fur the Minna had been only (*ended, the former mull he newly created wt ile the litter would need only to be contintn.d-tati B. fides, were a ballot for the Artily of Referve re torted to. frill a ballot mull form be had to limply the deficiencies in the Militia ; and, at the end t f the war, the whole of the Militia mull be balloted for—thus adding frail; impediments to the rentilar tectuiting, aad to the fuccels of the Right Hon- Gentlem tae's fyltem. Thus liAd he proved, that the balloting for the militia was the he cattle the believing f , r an Army of Referve would he a en eater exertion for the country to make ; fecondly, bec.ufe it would raife the bounties ernirmottfly ; thirdly, becaule it would materially interfere with the Right Hon. Gentleman's plan ; and fourthly, became the Ballot mull proceed at the fame time. If the Right Hon. Gentleman was lincere in his with to increafe the regular army, he would be grateful to his Noble Friend for the propolition that he had made ; for, by giving to the army 2.1.000 men, thearmy would unquellionably Oh more than it could tole by the temporary interruption of the Right Hon. Gentleman's plan. Thole were the moll manly opponents of the prefent meaftite who con demned the propofed ballot altogether. Of there there were two defcriptinns, fame who thought that no compulfion Would be ufed, and tome who thought that the compulfion contained in his Noble Friend's meafure was infufficient. For his own part he had always been of opinion, that the idea of keeping up In large a force as that required in war by fuch a country as Great Britain, without fupplying fume part of that force by compulfion, was moll extrava gant, and in the prefect fituation of Europe, how ever fuch an ablurdity might he maintained in then. retinal difquifiti..ns, he never imagined that it coups have been praftically recommended. Never could any country, whatever might be its conllitution, or however extenfive might be its population, maintain a force fufficient for its defence, without comptillive fervice. The Hon. Gentleman who had IA fpoketa called on Miaillers, if they thought compultion ne celtiry, manfully to come for ward, and to prnpofe a confcription in the fame way as that carried into effect by the Chief of the French Empire. Now the confcription eftabliffied by the Ruler of France wa s nor, as that Honourable Gentleman ftippofed, an abfolutely perfonal confcription: Suhllitntes were allowed to be provided, although cer tainly they were not to be procured at fo cheap a rate as in this country, for he happened to have the opportu• nity of knowing, that, about two months ago, the ;nice of a fubilitute in France was zoo guineas. If, however, any one timed that it would be proper to apply a diet& perfonal coni - ciiption to the Peo ple of this country, he had no hefitation in de• daring (without the moll remote with to under rate the emergency in which we were placed), that the emergency which would nattily Inch a flep, find not yet arrived. Such as the emergency was, how ever, it called for an augmentation of our military force, and his Majelly's Minillerc, in inquiring whe ther that augmentation of force ought to be all domef tic, or partly difpofable, found the neceflity for the latter, in the extent of foreign polieffions (wheiher wifely acquired or not, was not the quellion), to the care of which they had fucceeded, and for the prefervatian of which trey were yelp onlible. As to any derogation from the dignity of the militia, it was impoffibie that it Ihroild be confidered derogatory from their dignity to give them peraniffinn to ferve their country in a more extended fphere. It had been well laid in the early part of the debate by an Hon. Colonel, that the zeal with which the privates of a militia regiment volunteered into the line, would prove how tar their officers had made them not only fuldiers to the eye, but foldiers at heat t. He was convinced that the officers of the militia would be fincerely glad to give the fpirit of their men an opportunity of its difplaying itfelf. The Hon. Gentleman who had tan fiortken, had difclaimed all topics of irritation, and had declared that he would argue the whole of the fubjeCt, without reference to points unconneeed with it, and likely to provoke party feeling. To this de claration he had, in a conliderable degree. adhered : but he would ferinully afk that Hon. Gentleman, whether he thought that lie was Raring the arguments fairly, nr that lie was flitting them in a manner likely to do much good, when, by inference at leaft, he d ew a contraß between the mealine then under di:nation for the defence of the country, and other mealures not under difctiflion, and which he knew, had his friends continued in office, they would not have propofed. Was this fair ?—The late Minillers, in the face of the Parliament and of the Nation, had abandoned any further profecution of that very fyi tern, which the Hon. Gentleman now accufed the prefent Atiminiffration of not pinfuing. Mr. NV H ITBREAD in explanation, denied hay. ing aff:rted that the Confcription in France was in variably and abfolutely pet finial in its refpative ope rations. Mr. HILEY ADDINGTON. in this unexampled ciifis of increafing danger, hoped he should n e t be thought intrufine in aequeaing the indulgence of the Houle for a law mintite-. While he cordially concur, ed in the opinion expretTed on a former even ing by his Right Honourable Friend oppofite, that the vi: d intetesils of 'he country required Come mea fore of conlijerable vinotir, he felt that it was pe culiarly incumbent on Parliament to be cautions in the adoption of any particular meafure ; and he fairly owned chat he had hoped his Noble Friend might have brought forward a meafure more efficient, more praCtieable, and more free from thole weighty, and, as they appeared to Fiat, infuperable objeftions, which lay againtt the Bill now under the confideration of the Houle . It was with bee it reltrelance, that lie ()rippled any meafure p l argoted by his Majelly's Mil tatters, at a time like the prefent, when the advantages (unanimity were fir apparent; but in this meafure he could rut give I is concurrence without afac , ifice of catty private feeling, arid a comptueude of every . . noffilsle duty. His oisjeeinn to the ism, howirer,refled on the grounds nat only differing from, hut almoll wholly oppnfite to thole maintained by leis Right Hon. Friends near him. One of thole Right Hon. Friends had formerly been always telling the Houfe that there was no hope of carrying on the war fuccefsfully without Tome new effort, yet now that dangers were from day to day accimitilating, he teemed to con template them with a heady eye, and declared that the country might ref on its arms. The plan of his Right Hon. Friend, (the late Secretary of State for the War Department) he had ever highly approved, and he was ct.nvinced that if aelivity had been given to its proviti Its at a name early conical, it would have done more than w:iat it had done. But his Right Honourable Friend had iiimlelf acknowledged that years would be neceffiry to dtvelnpe the advantages of his plan; if fo, in fuch a great emergency as the prerenr, this was an matt fwerahle reafon for adopt• ling fome other ntea lire of m• r: immediate vignrir— I Tn filch a meafure far ina :ince, as the Array ' f Re ferve Aft, aditirted on all tides of the Hatife ro have been malt deciti ve' v pro it'd; %Pe. and by which th a regular recruiting had been nirricithed only in the propnrt inn of a fourteenth. lie hoped therefore that the effect of any timilar meafure on his Right Hon. Friend's plan would be very trifling, and here he thanked his Majelty's Nlinifiers, and he was Pure the country wo'ild thank them, that they had not only ab• Rained from °Whiging, the progrefs of that plan, but had had recourfetothe lliningell meafures tr accelerate itsfuccefs. Haying faid this much he would come elnfaa 'ID the queQion before the Houfe,and he would confider it in three views. Firli, whether the difadvantages of the propofed meafure were likely more than to counter. balance the advantages of it ; Secondly, whether any advantages at all, would accrue from it ; and th:rdly, whether other meafures more efficient might not be [ adopted ? In the firft place, the greatert difadvantages `were thole which refult from tampering with the mi litia in the very teeth of experience, and more partial lady of the experience in the year 1804. In the fecnnd place, with regard to the probable advantages, how ever fanguine his Noble Friend was on that fulled, he bad confiderable denbts. What pallid in 180; ? 17,000 men were allowed to volunteer from the mili tia to the line. Only 15,00 n aftnally did volunteer ; and yet it was now propofed to raife 28.000 men out of that identical body, not one man of which would volunteer in iBog ! In the third place, if he were asked what friperinr meafure he had to propose, he would anfwer the Army of Refeive All, which in three months had produced as many men as the Ad ditional Force Aft, which had been fnfpended far the expels purpnie of retorting to it iipnn an emer gency, and which had great and peculiar advantages l over the plan of his Noble Friend. He concluded by lethorting the node and the Country to great exer tions. Nothing ought to be left undone while any thing remained to dn. Lord H. PETTY Paid, he Ihntild be glad to give his affent to any plan that fhould promife to afford fecnrity to the country, but he was afraid that was not to be expected - from the relent meafure. An Honourable Friend of his who f i soke early in the de bate had very rightly (lazed that, according to the populatinn of the country, our force was greater than had ever been known in this, and equal to what it had been at anyaiane in any other country. At pre fent it amounted to nearly 400,c00 men : tita,ooo regulars, 20,000 artillery, from 7o to flo,coo militia, and 140,00ci feamen, making in the whole between 370 and 380,000 men, a number which fell little thou of 2 II 7ths of the whole people capable of bear. ing arms ; and that was the number eftimated as the proportion of France, which was a country poffeffed of fewer manufaeures and lets cammerce than this. If there was a moment in which it was more Jan gererous than another to tamper with the Military fyftern of a country, it was that in which the force had arrived at its greaten height. The plan of the Noble Lord went, in the Ma inQance, to unfix and overturn one of the mcli fettled fyllems of defence which this country hadever adopted; and he thought, at Inch a moment as the prefent, the unfeeling and diforganizing the Militia, was a molt extraordi nary meafure, it being the only Conllitutional mode of defence, and what had by our ancestors been fo much looked to as the molt certain and efficacious. If it could be fuppofed that there was any decline in the Militia, it mutt have arifen from a want of the Cnnflituti , nal Officers, who wet e enabled to raife and keep up the fupply ; and this method of drafting from the Militia, to make it a depot for the Regular Army, was calculated to increafe that de ficiency. This meafure Was certainly, as had been defcribed by fame Hon. Members, who had Spoken in the debate, in dire& contrast with that which had taken place in 1799 ; the Militia Officers were then told, that there was an Renal neceffity to call out a portion of the Militia, for foreign fervice ; whereas at the prefent moment they were told, that when the country was come to the moment of real defence at home, the Militia, as Inch, was not to be partied, but the, mutt be drafted into the Regular Army, in which they might be able to defend the country. That part of the Bill, he laid, which contained the feeds of its own dettration, was that which provided the bounties, and which woull molt materially injure the plan of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Windham), for keeping up the army to its prefent number. If the militia man took the prefent bounty of ten guineas, it might do very well ; but if he waited till the bal lot, he might obtain a much higher bounty by enter ing into tNe Militia again, and after that might obtain the Noble Lord's bounty, by entering into the army. This would go to deltroy the plan of his Right Hon. Friend, a plan which a Right Hon. Gentle man who (poke lately, had defcribed as refleiting on him the highest honour, and from which if, with the evidence in his polTeflion, the Noble Lord diffented, he mutt be of opinion, that experience was a cheat, and fad a liar. It had been 'July Rated by his Hon. Friend (Mr. Calcraft), that this plan had railed as many men as the regular- recruiting and . the Addi tional Force Bill put together ; and it was evident, front the proofs on the Table, that it would prove a permanent and effeel ual mode of recruiting theregular . army. This was not a temporary emergency, but what arose out of the melancholy and important change of circumllances which had lately taken place on the Continent. It was not f therefore, to be provided far by temporary meafures, but would require the aid of Tisch-as were permanent in their effees ; and when Ithe Houfe recellefted, that the incre afe of the arm y laft year, under every difficulty which an entire new Plan was Hite to; was 22,030 men, theYnnAt Inok for any immediate further inereaft, hot he con tent with that for the prefent ; and whenever ex:gen. cies might arife, that called for meafirres nt fort nee • nr greater compulflon, Inch as an aim tl ino they would then have thofe mean.' of compullfinn to retort to which wourldbe highly ant wow, the people would be convinced had not been applied !i'l Inevitable and imperious necetlity abiAirrel, regni , t ! and demanded it. It had been, ht well knew, the i..• tension of his Right Hon. F. iend or have Ariile.lhim. fell of the force of the volunteers, rriOr a few moditi• cations, which would have rendered them mote efro cient, and af.er that to have mode ufe ot the train; g ad, to as, in a °tort ime.• ro make the greaten pa t of the popnl ttion of the country able to fliir ar nr —a militate , force of the gee:veil irmortanre. If the Nn. ble Lord could mike any amendment in the triinlne et, which had been In much ridiculed by Lirnfelf and his adherents, he world obtain the thanks of Lit Right Honourable Friend, a' well a; the than k the country. It was With c' r.fi levee he Innke,l to the plan 41,4 Right Hon. Fiend, tor k•epine tor the force of the corm!. y ; and he cmild not, thcref or, but fit his face againit the pre'en: meafure. to which he Would nnrineitiAnahly refit that of the Army of Re ferve, becaufe it did not interfere with the fettled force of the country, whereas this went to unleole, diforganize, and injure it in are highell degree. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Canning) had more than infinuated, that if Alliance had been feat to the Continent force months ago, the war might have thereby been protraded ; brit the Hnitfe mould recoi led, that Lnrd Cathcart's fir ft expedition, fent nut when the Right Honourable Gentlemen, now Mini• tiers, were fo before, had not been attended with any beneficial cnnfequences ; not from any want of (kill in that gallant officer, nor of bravery in the troops under his command, but from the nature of the fervice, and the change of circumftances which had inevitably taken place. How far different hie fecond expedition might torn our, it was impadible for him to divine : he could only fay, he wished mn't fincerely k might prove the very reverie of the other, and be completely fuccefsful. He infined on it that the Right Honourable Gentleman had mifrepiefen ted the late Miniliry, In fitting they were not defirnus to conciliate Ireland. The diffnlution of Parliament and every document (hewed the contrary ; and he would not do the prefent Minifters fo much injullice, nor fuppofe them poffelTed of Inch malignant and weak minds, as to come to the Houfe with Infur redion Bills after Infurredion Bills, if they did not conceive the country of Ireland to be in g flgte of great and general diffatisfaetion. To conciliate the Irifh, and to remove the caufe of that diffatisfadion. had been the chief objet of the. late Miniflers ; and he conjured the prefent Miaillers and the Houfe, to paufe on the meafirres now carrying on, with refped to that part of the United Kingdom, and not contd• bate to the increafe of difiontents, when unanimity was fo highly efTential to the defence and preferva tints of the country. lie concluded by expreffing his decided difapprnbati in of the frelh meafure. Lord HENNIKER faid a few words in fuppott of the Bill. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not think the name of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Windham) would be tranfmitted, as had been fail, to future ages with admiration, on account of the tnilitaryprojeds he had introduced into practice. The true queftion war, Brit, if the fituation of eel , country required immediate meafures for the im provement of our military eitablifhment? and, net'. if the plan now propofed was heft adapted to Meet the public exigency? The expedient recently adopted was not progrellively increaling in its beneficial et . - leas, as had been (fated : 2089 men were railed in April, 2125 in May, and only 1864 in June, as ap peared by the tall returns. the Additional Pc, ce Aft, with the ordinary recruiting, the numbers were, in February 2113, March 2203. in January again 1937, February 2051, March 2098. l'o his appoo nc fufficient ohjedions had been foggefteJ r.) the meafure of his Noble Friend, and be tinned it would receive the fandion of the Houfe. Lord HENRY PE ['TY explained, that he did not fry that the other meafueer in contemplation by the late Minilters for conciliating the people of I-e -land, were of the fame defeription with the Cathulie Officer's Bill. Mr. WINDHAM, at fo late an hour, woulJ not enter at length into the lubjed. The proper ;neigh, was—Did there cult, at this Moment, filch d prelli Ile emergency, as to make it prudent to difappoint wholly the objet of the late military improvement.. and to introduce a fyßem of temporary eircer, but of permanent injury to the fervice ? He thought there was ro fuch exigency. It was faid by &great man that "to tax and to pleafe, eras as diffiellt as to lode and to be wife." Did Minilers refied on this ',bier. vation; when they propofed to revive the expence of two millions, or nearly, for the maintenance of the Volnnteers? They (poke as if the army was dimi• ailing in numbers. Nut only under the laft, but under former Adminittrations, it had been augmenting. It was progreffively 14.1,000 6 z,oco— t 70,000—and the latett returns were 182,000. The increafe by recruiting, during the laft two months, was at the rate of moo° a year. The cafualties were 13,0001 and they were provided fir, and a furplus ot 7000 obtained far the Regular Army. He could fee no reafon why fuch a permanent advantage thould be refigned for temporary expedients. Mr. BRAGGE BATHURST was ready to ad mit. that the Bill would have the effed of fuddenly increafing the troops of the line to the extent prof:noted; but he was apprehenfive, the meafure would go to depreciate the militia, and imprefs it with a notion that it could not be depended on as a fit force for the defence of the country; nor could he approve the meafure of reballoting for militiamen to a number fo much greater than thofe Which would be transferred by the Bill to the regiments of the tine. Betides, he thought the difpofable force of the country already fufficiently numerous for any purple connct:d with the defence of the country. Lord CASTLEREAGH replied to the arguments which had been adduced against his WI, and no.- withitanding he had to lament the null ,rome of differing from fome military friends rd his upon this oecafinn, whore opinions deferved to have as..re weight upon Military fuhjede than his own, Rill he heard no arguments ti convince him that this Bill was floe the molt eligible mea(itre, under the esi geodes of prelim earcutnlt.suces, its adopt. Tht