Star. — London, England, 1807-08-14 00:00:00

leited to the contrary, that the Houfe had never' c(edged with an eye of indifference nn the interelis of relad, and he could anfwer for it, that on the part I tit the prefent Government, it would ever be their Molt ardent and fincere with to pay every attention to there interelts and to promote them to the maims bf their power ; hut he could not conceive that was to be done by calling on the Honk at that moment, to ad pt a refolution which directly militated againft the meafures they had In lately paired, and thereby induce a belief that they had done that which was likely to produce difcontents. The Right Honour able Gentleman had made this ref elution the ground work to introduce a variety of arguments, which, in Ids opinion, were very irrelevant and unneceirary.— He would not, hnn ever, trefpafs on the time of the Houle by following him into In wide a field, but would content himself, after the few obfervations he had made, wi h moving the previous queftion. The SPEAKER then read the original motion, and having put the previous q'ieflion, Mr. GRATTAN role, and laid, that haying been alladed to on the prefent evening as well as on a former occifinn, as an authority relpeCting the par ticular flute of Ireland. he would with to make a few ()bre , vatinns on the prefent motion. With refpeet to the Bills that had In lately paired the Houfe, he would lay, that if he had voted at all, it would certainly have been for the fh.;'tter term of their du ration, and then he would have voted for the Bills. Ile expreffed hind - elf in terms of high admiration of the feritiments which had juft been delivered by his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Sheridan), in bringing f rward the refolution which he had fub. milted to the confederation of the Houfe ; fentiments he laid, which excited in him the deepeft gratitude, and which mull excite the fame in the brealt of every Jrahman, from the very kind and favourable opinion they conveyed of the 14)yalry, zeal, and attachment of the people of that country to the government of this. The very eloquent and animated manner in which thofe fentiments were delivered, could not fail to make a deep impreflion on all who were ihterefted for that part of the united empire : and if he difered with his Right Hon. Friend in any refped in the pre fent negation, it was net in the fentiments thendeives, but in the particular direetion of theta. His Right Bon. Friend had flared, that he thought the palling of the late bills (the infurre.tlion and the army hills), was not neceffary ; for hi, own part, he collet not but differ with him moll pointedly on that head.— His Right Honourable Friend had alto flared, that i there had always been a French party in Ireland.— He allowed the justice of that itatement ; but he begged the Houle, and his Right Hon Friend to recolleCt, that there was a very great difference between a party that had exifled, and a party that now citified ; and tint only that, but there was alio al great difference in the times, and now that France was become filch a gigantic power, and a French party exitted in Ireland, that was alone in his opinion a gond real n for adopting a ftrong:meafure. There might he times when the common law of the land was , by no means futficient for the fafety and fecurity of the country ; and when that i , the cafe, firnrg meafures ngitt be refotted to. He did not mean to fay that the people t It eland were in general difaf feeteci :00 the contrary, he joined with his Right Hon. Friend, in the belief that they were generally loyal and firmly attached to the Government of this country. It v as not, however, fufficlent to fay that particular counties %sere unditfurbed. Mr. Juflice Fox, he had no doubt, was very right in what he bad Paid of the counties of Tippera, y, Wexford, and Kilkenny, but there might be difcomented parties in other quarters, which were frificient t., justify the extraordinary powers given by the Bills lately paired. His Right Hon. Freud had Hated that the people of Ireland were in a (late of pet fed tranquillity, and that a perfen of the highelt authority in another place had given it as his opinion, that the Arms Bill was unnecdrary. That high authority might think fo, but he could not agree with him on that head.— The great 0bj,41 of the Arms Bill feemcd not to be fully underlie id ; it had in view the difarrr.ing, not , the great mars of the people, but certain portions of . them who were rebel., and v.ho went about the coun. I try to the Iv tiles of farmers and gentlemen who were known to have arms, and plundered them of the fame, to rile them for rebellisru , put poles, nod one r I the chief objeCts of the Bill was to take from thole rob• hers the pow er of doing that. Another °NO of ; the Aa was to prevent compulfory oaths from being I adminillerect, and other maters which tended to p:o mote and eliffute infurreEtion. He allowed that thofgj Acts were uncontritutional, and alluded to the dying regnelt of LordKilwardeo, which had beeu fir:Tie:illy quoted ; that Noble Loud had, however, given his entire approbation to Ails of a fimilar tene:ency.--- Lord Yelvert n, alt,, who was univerfally allowed in l behind to he a emit ir utional Judge, had faationed finiilar meafures in 1796 and 1798. There had aim() been at that time a very ci rittitutional Attorney Geroral and Solicitor General, the former of whom had diann the filo'. 8.11 introduced on that iubjeft. .hen he faw therefore that the doiff conttitutional Lawyers had all agreed in die necedity of reforting In fuch me dines, much as he arnired the eloquent arguments 4 f his Right Hep. Frier d, he mull for, that it he were to be called nn again, he would, for the fafety and fectit :tit of Ireland, vote for thnfe efts. Informer rime's the Iri(h Legitlature had pafrec! aets Of a lifllliar kind agailot ,t,f - lerentr di:tethers of the public peace, fuch as agointi the White Boy, in t 776, and afterwards againli the Hearts of roeel and Peep of I).iy Boys. He could not therefore think that the people of Ireland could corcetve that Horde was in different to their. right-, and c irelefs of their interens becatife they had naffed thole Aets. He was certain that much ttronger Bills Ilia: , fhere would not dohaff the ttilchief to the freedom of :retard, that a revival of the old disturbances ant; initirreetinns would.— Gentlemen who thought otherwilt forgot •he prefent fituation of the country, they forgot that France wes at our doors : and it w..s necell'ary to re hind them, that in inch a fituarioci we were net to look at the Rate of th ings o n the mere princti ie of right and Wrong, but 4.n the imperiens hecetlitv of pr(Jomina ling eheumftances. It is ti been the invariable prac tice to tufuend the mod coni.ittoi 'nal laws in the cafe of an invall n, and wren there was a French party in behind, we might do at tale time whit we /enrold not do at :intact. He thought the Bills neceflary tor the h e r t er t em ii y of the conntry ag,ainft 1 Inv dint( and dillu li it c•r, anti he voted for them not tor the purpote uf extending the powerof the crown, . .. but t, lave the country from ruin. He was lorry to -- have taken up fo much of time of the Honfe ; but he could not, for the reafons he had given, help fay ing thus much on the inhjea of thofe aas, in which he differed from his Right Hon. Friend. He then adverted to that part of the motion, which had for its immediate rbjea an inquiry into the Nate of Ire land ; and in cnnfidering that fubjea, he fhnuld divide it into three heads; viz. Educatir n, Agriculture, and Religion. With refpea to the &II part, Education, he thought plans might eafily he adapted, which would anfwer the mull beneficial purpofes. There were in Ireland confiderable funds appropriated for the advancement of the educati m of the people, but thofe funds had been grofsly milapplied; lo much fn, that though they amounted to upwards of gcool. a year, they only fupported 18 free fcholars. Much inquiry had frequently taken place on this fubjea ; and it had been found that the matters bad not done their duty, and the funds had been greatly ahufed, and much m fufed. He had liimfelf taken confider able pains on this fubjea, and knew that the prefent mailers were molt of them good men. There mull i therefore have been great mifmanagement in thole funds basing been expended, without producing a greater number of free fcholars than :8. He thought it would be better than to have the prefent number of fchools, to fubmit to have two great fchools, for the education of the higher orders ; for when a little fchool was planted, it was loon paralized in its opt- ' rations. By the law of Ireland, there fhtiold be a free fchool in ever y diocefe, and there being 34 dio cefes iii the country, there ought to be 34 dincefan fchools; and if thole were added to two great public fchools, he thought thole would he fufficient for the education of the higher orders. By the law of Ireland there mull he a fch tol in every parifh, which amount. ed in number to 2200 parilhes ; there were nor, how. ever, more than 400 fchnols, and thnfe only educat ed t r,OOO perfons. II there was a fchool in every pa rilh, he thought that wou'd he firfficient for the educa tion of the common people, who were, in his opinion, a people of a literary turn of mind, and given to pur foits of that narute. The fecund head on which he fhould touch, wa , the Agriculture of the country He apologized to the Houle for introducing this fub jea, which he fh told not have dune, had it not been under confederation of the }Lute durine the lateAd 1 minitiratinn. In this article the great ebjea would be the modification of tythes. 'I tete were two modes, I he laid, by which tythes might be modified; one was, la mode in which the farmers and owner s of land paid It much for hay, in much for corn, &c. which was lan idea recognized. Another method was commu tation by land; but this had not been fn much in pradice All the diflurbances in Ireland by the 1 White B vs. the Hearts of Steel, the Peep ef Day 1 Boys, and the Thrathers, had arifen from the op preffion of t} thes. If this hone of contention could , once be removed, it would do more I r the peace lof the country than could well be conceived. The Hnufe need not pledge itlelf to any meal - lire ; but he was lure they could not proceed too fpeedily : and I there was no grievance, the removal of which would give fuch general fatisfaaion as that of tythes. The next objedion which he lb add touch, was religion ; and, on this head, we had no right to inquire f a rther than as to the probahilif y of its influencing the Roman Catholics to form alliances with o u r enemy, who are of the fame pet loaf: n. The queltion then to be con• fidered was : Would the Catholics join the natural enemy ? If t! ey did nor, if they fought againil him, as they !hared in our dangers, they ihould (hare in your rights. He had no doubt but the great ma• jority of the Catholics in Ireland would take up arms againft the common enemy, and he was the more confident in this. from what had lately taken place. He then adverted to the Add refs of the Pro tenant Grand Jury to the Catholics in the county of Kilkenny at the late Aflizes, in which the Grand Jury congratulated the county that there was not a tingle perfon to be tried for fedition or diflurbance of the pubic peace. And the Catholics, in their anfwer, attributed the peaceable and tranquil Hate of the county to the harmony and unanimity (obi - tiling be. tween tire Protefi ant s and Ca tholics ; and they pledged therrifelwes to join the Proteflants in pieferving the peace of the country, and in wilting againit the cern mon enemy and preventing the growth of Fret c . principles, and the evil of French domination From loch fpecimens of harmony he hoped the bell refults ; and if the people of Ireland law their fituation in it Itrue light, if they had lirength of mind to bear their I , calatnnies with fortitude, the care and attention t f Parliament could not tail to unite them in the lirongell and clofeft bands of union. It wouid not be necefrary for them to 10. k to Holland, to Genna, or to Switzerland, to fee the effeas of French in•er ferettce, which had entailed on them, in return of their ancient rights, a nate of the balelt flavei y and the viten oppreffion. They would rather look with gratitude to the zra of 1779, when they recovered their trade, and to that of 1782, when they recto vered their Cenflituticn ; and, imprelTed with t ho le advantages, when they law Parliament attentive and defirons to remove thole difadvantages under which they Ilia labour, and which were preiumed to be done away by the Union, he had too doubt but they would alt join with heart and hand to combat the common enemy; and we might then bid defiance to any power that might attempt to attack our united Em;tire. He therefore fully approved that part of his Right Hon. Friend's mot'. in which went to a confideration of the (late of Ireland, but riot of that ' which alluded to and condemned the two Bills lately pa !fed. Mr. DILLON (poke fhnrtly on the fame grounds. and exprelled his approbation of the arguments ufed by his Right Hon. Friend who fpoke lalt. Mr. WINDHAM laid, that no man was more im• prelred with the importance of Ireland than he was ; that the inhabitants of that comitt y were in general loyal he had no doubt,hut that there exitled a French party there every man mutt acknowledge. if the late roeafut es were harlh, they were In by neceflity ; and being In he mull objea to all declamation upon their feverity. When his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Sheridan) indulged hinifel: in this way, he lhould recoiled he was limning a willing, boric, which, if inhumanly goaded, might throw his rider. He was doubly fearful of holding nut expedations to Ireland wl en he recolleaed the .imited means we had of la iist ying them. ire did not approve ef that part of hi, Right Hon. F iend'a noatinn which cendemeed what tad recently been done, will the reit he Itc3r• tily concurred. imPd RUSSFEA, lamentetl, that at 4.. e time in which, above all things, unanimity was important, it thould be thought nrcefTary to r-foit to thole vio lent meatures frnm which the ditaffettion of the par ple at Ireland had originated. It was employed as an excufe for them that France was more rowetful, and that in conf“ - pence the French party in Leland was rn-re confident ; but the fame exnedients were retorted to wile,: France was in a condition of corn patative imbecility. He would he glad to learn how far it was intended to pr(•ce-_.l in this fpirit, it it were for ever to he ffitgorien that coercion was the parent of difaffearm ? Was Ireland conflanfly to be reduced to the (late of dependance •ny which a c rn queted country was difgraced He had heard the Right Hon. Mover talk of conceflions to the kith during the prefent reign, and be was furry to be obliged to enquire what they were ? True it was, t' at the Alt of ,n was parted, but none of the prornifes had been fulfilled, ~f which a Noble Lord (Caltltreagli) fippfifife to him was the organ, and in the confidence of which that Union had been ob tained. He hoped the Houle would concur in the motion of his Right Hon. Friend, equally from a re gard to the fecurity of the triter Wand, and of our own. Mr. LOCKHART exprefred forrife, that the Right Hon. Gentleman who had brought forward this motion, had reprefented the Aets of a Legifla tore, that was diltinguilhed by Cofmopolitan beoefi cence, as the evil of which Ireland had to c'mplain. So far from tieing a fufpenfion of the Conttitution, thefe Aets were but the exercife of it. To call forth the powers given by the Contiituti-m for the protec• tion of the peaceable and loyal fubjeets, was but to put the C nllitution in force. He was happy that the example of the Right Hon. Gentleman had not been followed by the other Right Hon. Gentleman who fpoke from the fame bench, and had pointed out certain meafures for the relief of Ireland. As to the meafure refpeeting education, he entirely agreed will that Hon. Gensleman ; and as to a compofition for tytlaes, if that fhould be nec-Ifary, he fhoild not e.p. poleit, provided that compnfiticn were to be pro greffive with the times, and as well fecured as tithes are in this country to the clergy. As to the queili.in of emancipation, his difficulty vs'as, that the prirci pies of the religion would in the event of the Catho lics getting into power be dangerous to the Protef rant afeendancy. He thought it infinitely better that the Government fhnuld he living and able to corn mand °pig ions, before it Ihould concede boons, and he hoped that the Government would at all times he competent to infure the obedience of the people.. He fh uld vote againft the motion, becaufe it implied a derelietion of duty on their parts, and a cenfure upon I the alts of the Legifliture, the neceflity for which had been admitted on all hands. Mr. HERBERT cbferved, that it was by the adoption of inch plans as had been fuggeßed by the Right Hot,. Gentleman (Mr. Grattan), that the peo pieple of Leland were to he gained over. He could not support the motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman oppofite, in its prefent fhapc ; but, if he would c••n• fent to leave nut all after the word 41 Sefflun," he Ihoti/c1 then vote fur the motion. Mr. SHERIDAN rPfe to exprefs his readincis to comply with the fuggeflion of the Hon. Member, a readinefs.o hich he had befcre intimated in the fpecch which preceded his motion. The SPEAKER acquainted the H nt. Member, that no amendment could be made on the original nu.tton after the previous quation had bccn once mr•ved. Mr. SHERIDAN replied, that he returned the Right Hon. Gentleman would withdraw the Pie vinus (L•'fliost. Mr. h USK ISSON remarked acrofs the table, that the opprrintiry was gone by. Mr. SHERIDAN returned, that he never in his life law a quellion more grofsly mirappiehended.— Mu 4 Gentlemen were ready to admit that the former part of the motion was proper; and what followed the word " &Ilion,' which was deemed fo ohjedion- Able ? It was this, " and the performance of which wool] be a violation of the rights of the people of Ireland. ai-43 a fUhvezfion of the principles of our free Conititution." What could he the objection to dicta terms, and the fenriment they conveyed ? Was not the main argument for the introdudion of thole laws, that they 'horrid bt temporary ; and was not this the leading ethic& in thefe expreflions, without imputing any thing difcreditable to the meafutes ? They were limited to three years, obviinifly tecatile :heir permanence would be a violation of the Conni truion, as Rated in the concluding words. The Hon. Gentleman bel..w him teemed to have lifiened to the opening fpcech with great anxiety ; he rarnehly withed he had filtered with equal attention, and that the 1111. Gentleman's anxiety had not dellroyed his capacity for attention. All he (Mr. Sheridan) had Paid, was, that the Ads paired futpended the Omni troion with regard to Ireland. He was not to be expelled to produce proofs of what was fo palpable ; if rellimony was required, it was incumbent on Mi. nifty s to produce i. in Mutilation of thole grievances by which thele liatittes could alcne be jiinified. I'o proceed other wife wont t. whf I .ly reverie the natural order of things. Had tire Gen.lcmen on the other fide flared any filch evidence, allowing even for the take of argument, that tittle were the proper reme dies for thole grievance• ? The Hittite had refufed to take thefe ads into its annual review, and all he fought was, that this pledge Ihould be given, that the lubjed would be reconfidered next leftism. It was laid that we were find to make the Irilh obedient, an ! then confer boons ; that was, that we were to excite their fears, as preparatory for their love; but this was not the happielt way of a:leading theaffec tiuns of mankind. Then when he (Mr. Sheridan) talked of the awkward manner in which the favours of this cooniry were conleired or. Leland, the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lockhart) Paid he was " taken aback." He (Mr. Sheridan) not having had the advantage of a naval educati• n, did not underhand Tea phrafes; hut he thought he could comprehend this, that obligations might be fo bellowed, as to leave no inipreflions of gratitude. He did molt ear nettly deprecate the folly of waiting for that period to make c..11i.-ns, when it could not be done with a good grace, and vet when you could niit dare to withhold them. He had r oshirg to reply to the eul , gy of the El..ra-o table Gentleman (Mr Lockhart), on Britilh legifla:inn. He ought indeed to be filent u; on it, as the lionoura:ile Gentleman had employed a lefiluipedalien term (alluding to the word 4:of. rapo'itan) tvlt'! which he w' ai as iglinrani as of tit- marine p!lrart of the Horrurable G-n 1-!man ; h.it whatever rrt;2:lt be the occult rite using rf •s learned cxprt;7 n, he (Mr Sheridan) W . A• • onfi. dent that any r ncorniiim w•Amld he whoii, inapplica ble as far as fir%ith .ti n c •uld he explained by its enaelnun , s, , s ith regard to Irelan.f. A Right. Honourable im.nd of hi, (Mr. G alta ) !rate4, tiro the moii feri us grievance, of rte I ill rt:igi slated in the tvi hes. He (Mr She iclan) i:nt pre. folic to know It .w far the count' y was opinetrei fr.,m this cattle ; hut if the Heart of S:eel B ,y,. the Whi.e. B.mys, the Thretheis, and other dii .tlemed, were in arms on that account, at leami the dilc , riten . s of ire- land were to be I,tributed to Come other motive than the favourite tie ~t tie F. erten t .Etion. A Rier Honourable Fmicr.d of his halt afle.d whether a per - fon would find fault with A bean• y m,rely h-.cairle the had a rintple tyon het face ? a Tie ii•in of b.m e gallantry. Certainly no Itiihmrn w ta;sl. But he w.'uld fay—'' My dear beauty, nut a r: Ad, noon the pimple, but don't put a malk on all you face." There might be a dark !Pot ikt the crouvrv. b It do not put a mane on the whole liberties of Irei4n..i. Another Hon. Gentlzman held out a el..6lmine to wl ich he hirofell could not agree. He (M.. Lock tart) was for depriving frela Id of the blellings of the Bi tiith Coniiitution until after they had gone thr' ugh the hour of trial, and had made all the great exertions need:Try in the impending " Et prora..r vitam vitz peraere caufae But he (Mr. Sheridan) was not &firm'. of making - experiments en their valour and their loyally He was for encouraging and animating them in the cattle, by making them know and fed their advan• rages, and teacliing them to regard their connedion wi.h Great Britain as their lecurity and their hap pinefs. He was not for waiting till their viltite and couraoe had been difolayed by their achieve ments in the field, in orJer to give them after wards what he thought were preliminary rights He &Sired to know whin the Catholic. , of J el hid tot therm themfelves a brave and diflioguifhed rice. He knew that we mull trult,-in cafe of dan ger, to a Catholic Militia. Let hint be (hewn that he vfas wrong, not by affertions, but by fads, or he mutt (till c milder the Catholics of Ireland et:pally loyal and zeal-tis. and ready to Ricci their blood in their cotintiy's defence. with the other parts of the community. With refped to what he had laid con cerning the Bill brought in andwithdrawn by the late Minitters, and which had been alluded to in the de. bate, he mutt ribErve that he did not hold that Bill cheap : but though he conceived its objed, he kill thought it was beginning at the wrong end, and that the lower claffes were the fit a whom we Ihottld bettio with and take that as a foblequent meafitre of courfe. He eves !hought that the adoption of that Biil,ohlels accompanied ik h fomething of thi kind, could not tend to plea le the lower claffesgreatly. I. might, among thenocreate jealenfy, andineline them to think that the gently had got all they wanted, and that refit melon, as it c• neer tied them, was not to go hand in hand with the amelioration of the higher orders. The fpecific °Ned of that Bill, however, he highly approved That Bill Vk ent to take away all impediment.. in the way cf promotion from brave and meritorious officers, to whole advancement and rewaid A limit was now aflianed of the molt revolting nature, and who bond themfelves moll unjultly,init ab tlaey had arrived at a flotation by their atchievements that de ferved promotion and honour, in the fame propor tion compelled to fubmit to privation and degrada tion. W! ch was the belt mode, in this pro fli tg cr ifis, of proceedipg with the people of Ireland was the queflion at trite. Tc, difarm them, to tell them we (hall wait to fee their behaviour in the time of trial, t i winters the greatnefs of their efforts ? No! He would encourage and animate them by folid benefits and ptivilege%. He would even fend them againtl the enemy with their raker, and the conflitution muf fled round their bodies for their armour. and we fltould find them ready to lofe the Lill drop of their blood in their valiant efforts in our defence He mutt now recur to what he let out with. He was oil& dent that the ntmott benefit would refult to the Em pire at large—but at any rate the maniteliation of a dilpofition by that Houle to acknowledge the impor tance of the lubjed, and the expreffi n of an 'mention to enter ferioufly into it, would be a pacifier, and muff aflili in procuring a fenfe of attachment and obedience. When King Charles the Fir It applied to Mr. Selden, an enquired of him. what was, in his opinion, the bell remedy for rebelli .n, what was Mr. Selden's anfwer ? " Seek for and remove the cattle." This advice be mat apply to the (late of Ireland. Mr. G . RATTAN and Mr. SHERIDAN mutually explained. _ _ 'Mt. FULLER thought that the real fituation of Feland required examination by tome perfons there properly qualified, fuch as members of the Royal —(a la71))—or the Society of Arts, and other ;erfons well qualified. He hoped Parliament would do •ft'mething to render the Union between the own countries nor nominal but real. M .f2.OC.H RA NE JOHNSTONE Ibni,ld vote for the motion. If Patli ,ment fhoulet neglcet the Mate of heand, it would bring itfeif diirepute. The qiiellion being put, the Honft: divided on Mr. Shevidan's rnoti.in—i.yes 33—Noes 76—Majority againll it 43. When the Gallery was aga;n s opered, we found Mr. WINDHAM on his legs, making fonle obfervations r.fpeeling the fever 01 refolution, he iw ended to move relative to the Army Retorns. at different periods. After fomz cormei fat'on with Lord Cadereagh, who had fimilar refolotions to move, it was agreed, on the Speaker's fuggeflion, that the Noble Lard thould move ?n adjournment of one week on each of Mr. Windham's refclutions,which was agieed to and done accordingly, Mr. W.'s objelt being merely the enter. ing of his refolntions on the Journals, after which Lord Cattlereugh's refolutions were read, agreed to, and entered. VOLUNTEERS. Sir THOMAS TURTON was happy to find that thedirciPani of the Volunteers vial robe improved, and witted to give his Mo. jelly's Minitiers an opportunity of Gating their intentions oti that tie.,d, as well as with refpedt to rb- Training Bill, which be looked upon neceffary to keep up the Volunteers. I ord CAS I'LEREAGEI declared, th . tt every attention would be Faie. to the Volunteers, in order to improve their difeipiiiie, and lame a full attendance upon cara !c. As to the Training bill, Pepe had beg n taken to correet the lifts, end in an early part of next Fe& n. a mm afore would be brouet to weed, funded upon it. f r the eftaOliffiment of a loe4l Militia in the different counties. Several Military Returns w , :re orJered, on the mo mu or Lord CAs I I.EREAGH, and feveral prefented by the SECRE I'ARY 1 at WAR, which were ordered to boirinted. Adjoivaed at a 3.