Star. — London, England, 1819-03-19 00:00:00

hit •Minis'ArS to act with 0 MCI • to refrain from filling up any vacancy that m till the opinion of the House was, had sebject. But it had produced no such effect. b ee n a precipitancy, not to say indelicacy, 1g t h e a ppointment of an Honourable Baro i. Clark,) to supply the late vacancy, pend tice which he had given of his intention to' this question. With whatever confi- Unisters might look to the decision of the . would at least have been but a proper re its opinion to have refrained from filling up cv till the question was discussed and de last time that this motion was brought the Table Lord opposite had resisted it suc , by stating that it was a question to be de the Finance Committee then sitting. For e. was one of those so much attached to the c,:stoms of the House, that he could not of the new plan of throwing the responsibi wry question on the shoulders of a Corn. But in this particular case, what had hap • following the Noble Lord's advice, and is question to the decision of the Committee? re;ar the House to the Report of that Com- It was curious to observe the difference of ants ey:pressed by the Noble Lords in the Ind in the Committee. In the month of June made its appearance, and upon this subject the opinion of the Committee in these words: number and salary of the Lords of the Ad seems removed from the consideration of matinee, by the late decision of the House" lear). Thus the Noble Lord got the House i',;ainst the motion, by saying the subject decided by the Committee, and then he Committee pass it over, by telling them it decided by the House—(Hear, hear). This .as enough to shew how much weight was lleport of that Committee, if its authority -,trotcal against his motion this night. If lity of character was any bar to the pro )f (iovernment in filling up the late vacancy, r-7. to confess that the individual whom they ,atcd, had merit sufliJent to make an ex the rule, it any exception were admissible. , nut the chat acter that could justify theap ; the question was as to the necessity of the much for the Report of the last Finance cc, But there was another Committee which ireJ into this subject, and he must refer to The Committee on the Public Expendi -IZ, had noticed it in their Report. Of that tta: ha might safely ,ay, that. it was as much • tae ra•si,il7t and consideration of the House 0..; that had ever been appointed. The late ;now Lind Colche.,-..er,) was a Member of Ryder, (now Lord Ilarrowby,) was `..lemilier cif it ; Mr. Henry Thornton was .tai Mr. Charles Yorke was also a Member Ut Committee, in their Report, statcd as fol . Your Committee think it their duty to ob it ;he number of the Commissioners of the :y is six, and that it has been found that in :at .state of toe public service no reduction made." This part of the Report alluded to ty, v:hich had been instituted into the nature tent of the clinics then to be performed by the Cit.. Admiralty, the country being then at But the Report went on—“ Your Committee, think it worthy of consideration, whether in of pe rce, by reductions in the naval force, !a:ions departments connected with the na :ce, the luti.es will not be so much diminished, low of some reduction in the number of the :ommist , ioners, consistently with the public One part of the recommendation of this nee had, indeed, been pretty well attended reducing the Clerks of the Admiralty. They reduced from about fifty or sixty to about There had been no consideration or hesita lischarging these individuals. But when the came to be about reducing any of the Lords Admiralty, that was treated quite in a diffe ,,y—and why ? Because it touched their pa. trerage. The truth was, that for the very same rea ' that the Clerks had been reduced, some of the Commissioners should be also removed. The was the same for both ; there was a reduction business. It could not be dulled that there w less bminess than there had been during the As a proof of it, the number of days for trans public business, or, as they are called, Board as reduced from five days in the week to three. :nre was proof enough that there was not now bminey. How indeed could there be so consid.oing the extent of reductions in our n - te? The number of men voted for the Navy was 120.000, and from thence till the end of c, never less than from 150,(00 to 170,000, ;e number of ships in coromicsion never less ,000. Lt present the establishment was re to 20,000 men, and l;i0 ships of war (inclucl ; classe,) in commission. Yet, with these enor reductions, the number of the Lords of the Ad y remained the same. It was plain that during there ra,ist have been too few to carry on !siness, cr that there were now too many.— :her haind fault with the extent of the reduc ia the Navy, and regretted that a maritime which should place its whole and sole raj 'n . .tv naval forc, should reduce that force be i;s aticnt number. At the same time there evidently a preference given to another service, :'ov ever g , -eat its merits, was too exclusively ..-atrita of the Government. If a war should break cart, it might be found very difficult Cr: tee great body of men who would be re man our Navy. But there was no such :on to reducing the number of Lords of the Ad :ty timing peace. If any of them were reduced, re:•ewal of war should make it necessary to in t, number to its present amount, it would be them. Lords of the Admiralty were caa, f Neal than seamen ; and when wanted, p• .awry had only to hold up their bands, and they plenty to accept the office. In one branch the: e Lad been a reduction which he thiriic of without regret, on account of the 0 1 Locality and relit t ion, about which so r " said in these days. A regulation had been "isle iv hick it was understood would be strictly at- . Fc t..) that if any vacancy should occur in the ,a ..•. l napha at any of the three great naval 't be filled up from the list of Chap "...t%lllaciy 11 the naval scrvjce, Y 4 in the ca* of Portsmouth, he belle4ed theft had been at ezetp- Besides this, there was another cause of business tion to the rule. If his information was correct, an being increased in peace which did not occur during individual had been app o i nte d to t h e o ffi ce o f Ch ap- t h e war. Wh ile the war lasted many officers havin g lain on that station, not from the list of chaplains of their whole minds turned to the naval service, had the Navy. If he were to look for the cause of the their whole thoughts so completely directed that way appointment of the individual to whom he alluded, it that diiring peace the impulse c ntinuedto make them would probably be found i n th e resu l t o f t h e e l ect i on d evote their attention to devisi ng means for improv-i for the Borough of Portsmouth, to the interest of ing that service, and they were continually sending the individual in that Borough, and to hi s political to the Admiralty the plans which they devised for opinions— (Hear, hear, from Me Opposilion.)— that purpose—some for improving the hulls of ships, —He was glad to see one of the Lords of the Ad- some the masts, some the rigging, some as to astra s miralty now come into the House, That individual nomy—and in short, on all subjects connected with would probably be able to Worm them of the course the navy. All these were to be examined and de, of political education gone through by the junior cided on' for though many of them turned out to be Lords of the Admiralty, which had been described such as could not be adopted, it would not be said .is so instructive, and so important to the. State.— that they ought to be indiscriminately rejected. All But he trusted that that Honourable Member, and persons whollad been at sea like himself, must find the other Members of that Board, would confine that they would be unable to get through the busi themselves to giving information to the House, and ness of the Admiralty, without the assistance of men that they would observe the usual course pursued by of different habits. Much and constantly as he en those whose personal interests were involved in the deavoured to discharge his duty, he found, that with decision of the House, and refrain f ro m v o ti ng i n ou t th e ass i stance o f t h e lay L ords, it would be inn favour of themselves—( Hear, hear).—ln the reign possible to get on. It was to be recollected that the of Henry the Eighth, a Board had first been ap- Admiralty had the charge of the maritime concerns pointed to take charge of the affairs of the Navy, of a great country, on which nice and difficult subjects and from that appointment originated the Board of occurred. It was well known that two men of one Admiralty as now constituted. But from that time profession could hardly ever be found to agree. (1 ing/t) till the present, there were various instances in which That was as true in the naval profession as any other, the Lords of the Admiralty had been fewer in num- and this the Honourable Admiral, on the other side, ber than six. He would state these instances, and whom he saw now looking at him, knew very well was sure they were correct. In 1702 the number of —(Laughter). For that very reason it was impossi • Commissioners under Prince George was only four ; ble to dispense with Boards at the outports. Two which was the number kept up till 1706. Under Officers had bean sent some time since to Milford Lord Hawke the number was the same. In 1715 Ihven, and they completely differed in opinion on a there were only five. In 1717 only five. In 1775 subject of importance. He would ask the Honour only five, under Lord Sandwich. In the year 1789, able Baronet, who called these Boards useless, what under the Earl of Chatham, there were six, but in was to have been done in such a case, without a November in that year Sir F. Drake, one of the Board to decide between them ? 11 there had been Lords of the Admiralty, died, and the vacancy oc- no Beard, the business must have been at a stand. casioned by his death was not filled up till Novem- The fact was, that with their utmost endeavours they ber, 1790. So that even at so late a period the could hardly get through the business. Since his whole establishment for a whole year was only five. own appointment, he had not been able to spare half —(Hear, /tear).—On a former occasion, When he an hour 'even to take a walk. To be sure the lay had stated this, he had been replied ie. by-the Ho- Lords had not been kept so hard at it (La AI ) 'mutable Secretary for 'the A miritlty, who„had Rut without their assistance they could not get stated that it appeared from all the records in the through the business. There were now three lay Admiralty, that the sum voted for the Lords Corn- Lords and three sea Lords ; but if one out of each missioners' Salaries had never been diminished.-- class was reduced, and only two left in each, then To that he could only answer, that on examining the the old difficulty would occur, and when there was a Journals of the House, he had not been able to dis- difference of opinion the business would be at a stand, covey what sum in particular had been voted in any for there would be no majority to decide, and no one year for their salaries, as it seemed always to be thing could be done without a majority—Oft:eh included under the 1 head of Contingencies. laughter and cheering). One objection which genera l d e f r o a rmerly been made to any Sir ISAAC COFFIN agreed to every word that reduction in their numb% was, that by their Corn- had been said by the Gallant Admiral who spoke missions it was required that there should be the last, and he was sure that there could not be ftmnd signature of " three or more" of the Lords. But that a man more fit for the duties of a Lord of the Ad objection could easily be removed by an Address to miralty than that gallant Officer and his friends, Sir the Prince Regent, praying to alter that formula,. by Hotham, and Sir B. Martin.,—(hear, hear.)-4But requiring the signature of only " two or more.". An - be would ask the Honourable Member if he could other objection was, that unless the present Memhers say that the Noble Lord (en whose retirement the were continued, it would be impossible to have Boards late vacancy among the Lay Lords had been filled at the Out-ports. But he contended, that during up) had signed any paper during the whole time he peace, such Boards were not necessary. If they were, held the office, except the receipts for his salary ? it was ridiculous to suppose that I,Ay Lords,: who (icar,. hear.)—He knew that there was almost more knew nothing of naval affairs---who {lid not know a businfts• to transact than the Sea Lords could go 74 from—he was going to say, from a mail coach , through ; but lie contended that they derived no (iaug.lter) —were nt to conduct the business of such assistance from the Lay Lords. The late Lord Hood Boards. In the present state of the service. he thought had told him that the pressure of business was so 4 quite su ffi cient to have three Bra Lords: and one that ballad been for six weeks at a time con- Lay Lord of th e Admiralty. On the grounds which ned to the Admiralty without being able to stir out.. he had, stated. ;nd sousidOng.the burdened state of And he Anew that the Gallant Admiral, and the the country, and that the House was pledged to cc°, other sea Lords, were now overwhelmed with busi nomy, he moved the following Resolution : tress, while the Lay Lords were riding about and " That an humble Address be presented to his Royal High. enjoying themselves in idleness.—(Laughter.)-11e ness the Prince Regent, to represent to his Royal Highness that wishai to vv the mode of transacting business in the his 31ajesty's faithtul Commons, being desirous that all such Admiralty restored to what it had formerly been. measnres of economy should be adopted as were consistent with Sir GEORGE COCKBURN, in reply to the ques the security of the country, humbly prayed his Royal Highness to give directions to reduce the Lords of the Admiralty to such tion of his Gallant Friend, said, that the Noble Lord a number .1; the e.,igt 'icy of the country required:" who lately retired had signed•many other papers, be- Sir GEORGE COCKBURN begged the indal- sides the receipts for his salary, and had taken his gence of the House, as he rose to answer the personal regular turn of business—(hear, hear.) attack of the lion. Baronet who had just spoken. Mr. CALCRAFT rose amid loud calls for the Sir 31. W. ItIDLEY rose to order. He disavowed question, and begged leave to make a few observe any intention of attacking the Gallant Admiral per- tinns to the House, on what had fallen from the Gal sonallv. hurt Admiral on the other side (Sir G. Cockburn), as Sir GEORGE COCKBUII.NE apologised. He cer- he saw that Ministers pressed for a division on the tainly thought that the Honourable Baronet did strength of his statement. The Gallant Admiral, in his Jude to hint personally in what he had said relative eagerness to defend the present constitution of tha to the appointment of the Chaplain at Portsmouth ; Board, had carried his argument too far: if what and thinking so, he was desirous of answering it. he said about the number of Officers appointed to And he wished, with the permission of the House, receive the communications of the Navy in time of to be allowed to-reply to what he conceived to be an war were correct, it proved that there sr re then too attack—(lle.k hear)...-Whenever his conduct was many Lords of the Admiralty. He had stated that questioned, whether in that House or out of that 12 Admirals stood between the Board and the Navy, House, all that he wopld wish for sees an opportu- but that now 8,000 persons corresponded directly nity to defend himself—(Hear, hear). —The appoint- ith the Board. Tins argument did not appear to meat which had been mentioned was made in the re- him (Mr. Calcraft) of much weight, as he could not gular course of promotion, and not for any clot- think that the business of a Board could increase by tmneering purpose, as had been asserted. At the diminishing the number and services of those whom three great stations, POrtsmouth, Plymouth, and it superintended—(Hear). The true defence then Chatham, it had been long since arranged that if any would be found to be as formerly stated, that the 'vacancy occurred in the office of Chaplain, it should Navy Board was a school for young Statesmen. If be filled up from those employed in the service in the Gentlemen of the oppoSite side thought so now, , their regular turn. When this vacancy occurred, a let them fairly come forward and support this posi letter was written to the Board to know who was don, and not take up the new ground of business first on the list ? An answer was sent that Mr. Cuth- which they formerly deserted—(Hear), If they bert was the first; and he was accordingly appointed were to deal with the question in th:s way, heahould pursuant to the regulation, Now he would put it to know haw to opposo them ; lie would say that he the House to say, whether the circumstance of that thought there was sufficient patronage already io the Gentleman's being an inhabitant of Portsmouth, or hands of the Ministers of the Crown, and sufficient connected with that place, should deprive him of an opportunities of education for such young Statesmen ; appointment which fell to him in the usual course of nay, he would even go the length of saying, that that the service ?--(Hear, hear) —Was he to be deprived patronage was too great, the opportunities too many. of it because he (Sir G. Cockburn) happened to be With the places at present in their gift, there was no Member for that place—an hoe6ur of which he was danger that the influence of the Crown could be re proud—(Hear, hear).—As to the main question, the doced too low ; while it was grating to the feelings grounds on which the Honourable Baronet had called of the i,eople to see their opinions neglected and their upon the House to agree to this reduction were mis- interests overlooked by the persevering encourage stated, if not misrepresented, so far as related to the Trent of unnecessary expenditure,—(lfear). The extent of the duties. The number of ships now in saving here would be but small; but it was the pi in commission was correctly stated to be 12 , 4 These ciple, and not the sum, that was to be contended for. were not, as during the war, confined to ten or twelve (Hear.) If the principles of economy h ad . any info regular stations, each of which was under t he im- ence over the minds of Members, they would evince mediate command of one Admiral, who alone di- them by cutting off unnecessary expenses, however rectly corresponded with the Admiralty. They were small ; but if shey were to neglect them, they would i n ow scattered over the whole face of the globe , an d no doubt vote in t hat g reat ma j ority expect ed by the the commander of almost every individual sh i p g allant A dmiral. The g allant Admiral, by deta iling bad now to correspond directly with the Admiralty. the overwhelming business of his office, had hoped to There was another cir umstance which much in- irifleenee the )Muse; aad.one was almost led to pity creased the businsss of the'Adiniralty at this time.— the Lay Lords fo r the severe toils to which, accord curing the peace, wheat so many of were out of big to hitryhey were subjected—(4 friagh). Mem euip.eyment there were continual applications and hers might, however , co nsole themselves, that the memorials coming from them, stating their claims !reek!)_ of those Lay-Lords .aeould no; be injured by to be employed. All these .1 • were acldroyssed ao the their employment. llnste4ctofirivin only half an Admiralty Wert to b e Ggiiiidged and am i t y ( ' 1 — .4 hell f0!.4 walk,, like ilte gaitelar • dittOiil, once in $ •-• Nfl days, they had not Only an hoer to Walk, lint e.A Isour to ride in the Parks every day. He would not ' object to the plea of these places being nurseries for young Statesmen, if he saw that after the com pletion of their education these young Statestwen were of any use to the public.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Marquis who was now to be replac'ed by the Honourable Baronet, had been trained up in office, and taught to sign do cuments as we ll as cou ld be expected ; but what had happened ? Just as he was becoming of any use, he had been turned edrift, and a new scholar introduced, who knew nothing at all of business, and who, after pas t i ng t h roug h t h e same ordeal, might be turned out in the same ms.:- per—(A laugh.)—Really, it was almost impossible to argue upon this subject: the question, as far as reasonini was concerned, had b een a l rea d y dis posed of - ---(HeAr, on the side of the l'•;irlisterS, re echoed by the Opposition )—lie said already dis posed of, because it could never be behoved for 4 moment, that there was the same extent of business in superietending a navy of 120,000 men, and /000 ships in foil active service, and during a time o! ware as in directing a fleet of scarcely more than 100 ships, of 20,000 men, and in a period of profound peace —(Loud cheering from the Opposition.;—lle au gured well of the success of this motion, and hoped that the House, which was so strongly pledged to economy, would on the present occasion give the country something more than mouth-services (Hear). At the end of this speech there was again a cry of u Question 1' from the Ministerial side of the House. Mr. GRAHAM (Member for Hull) said, that anxious as he was to support every measure of ccc nomy, and convinced, as he was, that reirenchment was absolutely necessary in the present distressed state of the country, he would not seek for that tz trenchment by any improper diminution of the ie fluence of the Crown ; but he was firmle of opin:en, that the influence of the Crown was overgrown, and ought to be diminished—(Hear, letar.)—He wished to give no handle to popular clamour; but whee he considered the extent and the patronage of the Army, when lie considered the influence arising freer the collection of the Revenue, he thought • that every Motion like the present, that had for its cleect to reduce within proper limits the influence et - t.:..e Government, ought to be adopted—(Hear, hear,'. — He could not see how, for the purposes of pehlie business, as great a Navy Board should he required in time of profound peace as when we stood against the worl&-(Hear, hear.) Among the duties niche Lay Lords lie saw nothing but the signature of their names to official documents. Accordingly, no qua. lineation seemed to be required of those who °me pied those places. When a vacancy occurred, AP. nisters hi:led it up; when they . could not find any of the ornamental pate of their friends, they recruited in Scotland for Members--(Rear, hear.) This clues? tion oppeared to him very important, as regarded the principle of economy. The burdens of the peeple were eo great, that if even one Member of the Board could e spared, the place ought to be abolished.— He cot ld not conceive how any honourable mar, who v how useless he must be in such an ofii.-P, could/bring hiniscit; from mercenary motives; to be. nefit himself at the expense of the Public—(Jkey.) Ministers might, and lie had no doubt would, on this question, have a neejority ; but this majority would only convince him of the expediency at aboliShit g places like the present, by which ft et as comment:lee: When such places epmmAn.ied a majority in favour of Ministers, it was evident that the majority of the country was against them—(Hear,hear),lle vtished rather to see an Administration subject to publicopi. pion, relying for their measures on public approhd ition, than placed by an iufiuence like the present, be yond public opinion, and defying the Oieapprobetiee of the country—(Hear)e . --Beceuse the pre*nt mot:oa would tend to reduce their power, he would vote in support of the Reso/titien of the Honourable Baronet, which had his hearty concurrence.—Cparing t:..s 'speech the Ministerial side erii-ced great impatience:: Mr. COMYN, although pertectly independeet, he said, in his conduct, yet thought it his duty, on the present occasion, to support the Servants of the Crown. They pui cued the plans of those illdstriQus predecessors in office who had formed such arrange. ments es had mainly. .contributed to the glory of our arms both by sea and land. It was therefore incurs's. bent upon him to oppose the motion. . Lend J, RUSSELL ridiculo l the application of the science of Astronomy LO the junior Lord, of the Admiralt). Wthout meal big any ocence, he would venture to aff.rm, that the Noble Lord who had got, out of oftce posseeed as profound a knowledge of Astronomy as the Honourable Baronet who had suc ceeded him !—(Hear. ticsoe,;But, said some Gen tlemen, it was necessary that those junior Lords should, besides a perfect knowledge of Astronomy, also be good Civilians—should be distinguished for their learning so far as regarded the law of nations —should, in fact, have Putrendorff and Groups Ly heard—(feer, and lalwhier.)—With such necee sary qualiflcatkas, he believed, there would be found a considerable deficiency in the persons alluded to. But, to prove the efficiency and Wisdom of the 1/ , ‘Acd, the Honourable Baronet t Sir George Cockburn) stat ed, that they sent to the Out-ports men who were totally ignorant of their avocation—because . tiPir - reports from any of the seaport towns, whither they bad been deputised on a survey, were generally found such a mass of ignorance or nonsense, as to • require the partieular amendments of those who re mained in town at the Board !..-(Hear, bear, hear,)-- . This reminded him of a story once mentioned by an eminent Statesman (Mr. Foe) who, in charactetising an eccentric person, ludicrously observed, that he never spoke sp well on a subject as when he knew nothing about it ! So that the junior Lords sent to the outports might hue said never to snake sss good a survey as when they knew nothing of the subject ! (Hear, hear, and loud laughter.) ' former:y, wLen a question arose, in which the vital principles of the Ministers were not endangered, they would readily grant, and even propose a ('arnmitree.—(llear.) Hence a Committee on the affairs of the Bank— hence a Committee on the Criminal Laws—and hence various other Committees. But attempt to dnniiiisb or-abolish a single placeattettipt to act upon 414 of retrenchment by the reduction of one of their own corps, and then the whole party become inttpts 7 diately alarmed, and use „their utmost !aurae tii resist everyltiquit7.,Wear, hear). —lt is eass:ly ac. counting fot such desperate expedients ;The ex , -- of Administration • depends upon the system e lii ',% s 13 i tic curt I el SO oc • ▪ st:bie ic t i e had bee ohtr*eying tilt 61'u G. ▪ t he notice forVii!rd Ore 0 , 0 , a WOO . re. tc its Op , vacancy et; j, ! j, The o v ard, the r dully, by st i*d by the 1 wit dl.l c;:stc m ove o: :he . 00 , every c r nee. But i e j by folic la,liag the gut mast re,er . It opiLlinis e H 0 ,. h0 A nd in t I,:e Repot: mat tiatcd the e l : The nurnt seems hear; intte ue;ain 70 , 1 1,1 be dec., the Con int! 'eta daci, Was Cr e.iet.) the Bei, •i - at c cae;n:tbility ce'f,a;:c of (ac e. 3; to L.:Jai:pc:cacti :0 the 1. -.: it v. A > ttut e:;;:c, So nit; leinnittee, li i Itycirt. '1 ti:re 17F, C:ntmittce 13: t:ie t; ....Iv one the • -;eifier, ;how c it. 1:13t C Yot •ee, that the it,iatiralty is 5 preseat crTit be n3a,11 t. inquiry, v.., tia extent of Irds ear. But thl awever, thin to time of 1. in va:,3i: el; to ailx.v Llrls Curn,3 rricc." 0: Committee It ta, by reduci *ere reduce trt!. The taa is disch can ti the Adn• teat way.. al tecrage. T ma that thi Lords Conic' mama was t n ten busir etas noir les *P. As a pub', i, re; T.3is alw.•e mu,:h bu :3ach, consi 3.41 force? is i wa or, ni ;3.: the nu ftirt datsel to 2( tag -.lidos! reduc rAi 'a- ten o.istne lites ia tl taazi- 7 , v ;Ice en Its its e: evide7 ••••t 1 47 N a. Q:o *. e;t I C. l, 7eu I t: jeC.Ont :1.:1 a 1 Z 7 d' ;•4 1 . ,t re ; , ( .•'•) co rem' • • ••••,i,t. '%1,1 :1.., O. ;.le =.44;/e iv*/ t,. qis4t• • 4 4311 J existeflct !ftl • and