Star. — London, England, 1809-02-14 00:00:00

:enarit-Colonelcy was obtained ? A. No.—, !as done in consequence of the application irke ?A. Nothing at all.—Q. Did the bu oti, or did it die au ay ? A. On the night in which I wrote to Mrs. Clarke, I received Mrs. Clarke, inciosing Major Shaw's se. he money, and stating that Col. Shaw's it could not take place, and that she was ould not do any thing fer him. Mrs. for me to describe the person of Major state his interest, without which she could n the matter to his Royal Highness. I describe his person, as I had never seen is interest appeared satisfactory, and Mrs. ommended that be should obtain tWO we of absence through some General officer, ich period she should use her influence with Highness to accomplish the purpose with ming the cause. , this, you' had your interview with Colonel A. Yes.--Q. For what purpose ?A. It lel Shaw that sought it.—A. Did you relate Shaw what passed between you and Mrs. A. I don't think I did.—Q. Did the busi off and die away ? A. I know of no cir. r especting that, except the note sent to me you recollect having spoken trait Colonel Shaw had broken kis word A. Certainly he did break his word with , r d to his telling Mrs. Clarke that Mr. Do. : w of the circumstance.—Q. Did you ever of ]l;.i having broken his word with you be a..d not make you a present ? A. Never. did make me a present.—Q. What pre. When I sent him his papers, he sent me intents, saying he was sorry Iliad so much Lad inclosed me ten nounds.—Do you know !and application on the part of Colonel Shaw larke ? A. Certainly not.—A. Do you re- Le date of the transact4on we have been of ? 4. The fi rst time I saw Mrs. Clarke camber, 1 80.1..--Q. Do you recollect any lon you had with Mr. Donovan upon the A. I cannot recollect. I have been in the visiting at Mr. Donovan's, and have seen iuently. But as to the conversation that cannot say.---Q. What was the date of the ? I!. It was, I believe, from December April 1605, as nearly as I can guess:— : you in the habit of corresponding with Shaw ? A. I must have written lettefs to !uently, as the business continued for a long ind he was uneasy and anxious to get rid of —Q. Have you any of Colonel Shaw's let returned the whole of his letters to Mr. Do two or three days after he saw Mrs. ClarV;.— tra know any thing further of the transaction Colonel Shaw and Mrs. Clarke? A. I do not. DENNIS BROWN E.-••Q. Do you know per or by repute, the Miss Taylor who appeared ness at the Bar of this House ? I have seen iylor. She came to my house with her brother, Taylor.--Q. What do you know of the cha ir repute of Miss Taylor ? A. It is hard to, orn hearsay. Of my own knowledge, nothing. An what passed between you and Mrs. Clarke: believe, that any subsequent transaction took :tween Colonel Shaw and Mrs. Clarke. sort conversation took place on the propriety ofl cession, but the witness answered, Jo not believe Mrs. Clarke ever heard of S:taw afterwards.—Q. Did you ever tell any , and, if so, when, that Miss Taylor was a of bad repute ? A. I certainly did say that I turned Miss Taylor's visit, because I had ,ometbing unpleasant.—Q. What unpleasant ::ance was it that prevented you from return- Taylor's visit? A. It was hearsay, and I :oppose I am obliged to report what I have not FULLER rose to put a question to the wit at she was ordered to withdraw, on the ground A• question ought not to be pressed. L:FTORNEY GENERAL thought that an cation to general reputation was allowable. BARHAM thought the question wholly irre , and said that it was idle to enquire from a who was in the habit of visiting Mrs. Clarke, Lsor, for not visiting Miss Taylor. FULLER contended that the witness was the :.:male witness that had been examined at the He insisted that she should be called Lack, in that he should ask her whether if she had a fe hild she would intrust her to Miss Taylor's care ? . BATHURST thought the question wholly ;41t, and added, that the sense of the Commit .P.ned to be against pressing it. . LOFTUS stated, that the best course ne to put a direct question to the witness, whe.- . 1 witness, from her knowledge of Miss T a y lor, .ve credit to her testimony? :;.nnc further conversation, the witness was ; bat the quesLion proposed -by General was over-ruled. (By Mr. DENNIS BROWNE.) Can witnes4, from .ca knowledge, say that the evidence of Miss ris not to be believed ? A. I declare, f can. see . :ow I can answer such a question as that : merely a matter of opinion. I cannot. (By Sir JAMES GRAHANL)Where does witness • A . At No. 29, Villers-street. Where did ::e before she came there ? A. 111 South Mol.' '::tet•—(2. How long did she live there ? A. I tell.—Q. Can't tell how long she lived in a stlect ! Where did :.he live before she ••. to live in South Moiton.strec ? A. In Panton- Ire, where I lived three Fears and a hall.—Q. witness quit pantoll-square A. In 1505. ILA the live there when silt used to visit Mrs. irked A. I was not in the habit of 1. siting Mrs. irk, I to her on busincs;.—Q. Has witness :ea ail the business she transacted. v:i . .11 Mrs. Ciarkc ? • The lousiness I had with Mrs. Clarke was for , a;zissions, and related to genllimen whose names ;lever been mentioned, and for whom she never , • 4". ; tO!ng.. --( 2. State the names of those per- A. There never was any thing done for them; !•arnes were entrusted to me, and I think it would right to state them. I. ie witness was ordered to withdraw, upon Mr. objecting to the question. A discussion of kngth took place, and it was decided that the • should he put in anoth, r shape. Did you ever send the names of any persons v:ere desirous of obtaining promotion to Mrs. •uke A. I did not send ; I brought them.—Q. fte- collect yourself, and statsobsir tuunes.--46 It is a from want -of memory, or disrespect to I House, that I decline to do ses Mr. WHARTON—It is the sense of the CoMmitz tee that the witness should answer the question ex- . plicitly and pr3mptly. Q. Endeavour to recollect as many names as you can ? A. It would be very dishonourable in me to bring forward the names of persousfor whom nothing has been done. Mr. WHARTON—I wish again to remind the witness, that the Committee has decided that the ques-. tion must be answered, and that this House has the power of inflicting a heavy punishment on her if she declines to do so. By the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. Q. Had witness the authority of these persons to mention their names to Mrs. Clarke? A. I can't re-, collect that I had.—Q. Did she ever send the names of any persons to Mrs. Clarke, without their autho rity ? A. Indeed my memory does not hold out. Witness ordered to withdraw. Mr. Secretary CANNING suggested, that the ques tion may be so framed, as to bring out the fact with out disclosing the names of the persons. It was pos sible the witness might have been applied to as a broker, without reference to either I .ln. Clarke or the Duke of York. _ . Sir G. WA RRENDER said, it appeared, that the witness was one of Donovan's agents ; and the Com mittee would recollect, that it was stated, by a former evidence, that he had given in a long list of persons who were candidates for promotion to Mrs. Clarke. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER agreed, that if it could be proved the names had been submitted to the Duke of York, it would be proper to inquire into the circumstance. Mr. HUSKISSON observed, that previous to the Duke of York's le:ter, nothing was more common than for Officers to purchase and exchange commis sions through the medium of brokers. General FITZPATRICK confirmed this state ment, and said, a clause was introduced in the Mu tiny Bill, for the special purpose of putting an end to such practices.. General STEWART said, it would be wry un fair to the army, to have the names of Officers men tioned, by persons without character, and particu larly as they would have no opportunity of contradic ting4em. NS WHITBREAD said, there was one way of clearing their characters, as General Clavering had proved. General MATHEW observed, that there was hardly an Officer in the Army, previous to 1805, who' had not been guilty of this practice. Mr. SPENCER STANHOPE objected to the question. It must necessarily implicate so many per sons, that the Committee would not be able t© finish the inquiry in the course of the Session. General MATHEW moved, that the sense of the Committee be taken on the question. After some further discussion, the motion was with drawn, and the witness being called in, Mr. WHARTON again admonished her to an swer the question, under pain of the displeasure of the Committee. (Question repeated by Sir J. GRAHAm.) A. I will answer it out of respect for the power of the House, and not through fear. One Johnson. and one Wil liamson.—Q. Does witness recollect any other names? A. I do not recollect any other.—Q. She must en deavour to recollect ? A. I cannot recollect any other.—Q. Did you deliver in at any time, a list of other names ? A. I did, but cannot recollect them. —Q. State the Christian names of the names you hive mentioned. A. One was George, and William the other.—Q. Where do they live-? A. I cannot tell.—Q. Cannot tell where persons, wlit,ni she has stated to be acquaintances, live ? A. No ; it is up wards of three years ago since that transaction took place.—Q. Is witness a married woman ?A. No. I have been a widow nearly six years.—Q. How long did she live in South Molton-street ? . A. About a year and a half. Q. (By Lord PALMERSTONE.) Does witness know of any application to obtain leave of absence having been made to. Mrs. Clarke ? A. No : Mrs. Clarke told me she could not obtain leave of absence for an Officer. She desired me to write to Major Shaw, to ; obtain leave of absence for two months, and that that would be sufficient time to forward his application. Q. (By Lord MILToN.) What answer did Mrs. Clarke give the witness, when she carried to her the two names she mentioned ? A. She said she would try, but she must be very careful that no suspicion arose that it was a money transaction, as that would ruin her.—Q. Did Mrs. Clarke express any desire that it should be kept secret from the Duke of York ?1 A. She certainly did. Q. (By Lord FOLKSTONE.) The witness lived in V illiel'6-street ; did she not ?A. Yes.---Q. had she a house there, or did she live in lodgings ? A. In lodgings.,-Q. What was the name of the person to whom the 1., use belonged ? A. Adair.-.-Q. ‘Vere there ::ny otl er lodgers besides herself? A. She be lieved there were.---Q. Is Adair a man or a woman ? A. A wouid.n.---Q. How long had she known Dono van A. SW.; believed eighteen years.— Q. When did she last see Donovan ? A. This moment.—Q. When had she last seen him before she came to the House ? Vesterday.--.Q. Was she in the habit of , constantly seeing Donovan ? A. Yes. Q. Had she any knowledge of the transaction in , which Dont,van had been engaged in respect of the traffic for appointments ? A. She knew of none ex cept that of Colonel Shaw, in which she herself had been engaged.—Q. Was that the only transaction of this nature of which she had any knowledge ? A. She did not recollect any other whatever.—Q. Had 1 Donovan any concern in the list of names which she carried to Mrs. Clarke ?A. No.—Q. Did Donovan at that time carry on any traffic of that sort ? A. She knew of none of his transactions in that way, except that in which she herself had been engaged.—Q. When the witness went to Mrs. Clarke, did she go of her own accord, or had she been sent by Donovan ? A. She went of her own accord, without any intro duction whatever, and Mr. Donovan never knew that she had gone to Mrs. Clarke's till some months after. .--Q. When was this ? A. In December 1805, she believed.—Q. Was Donovan acquainted with Mrs. Clarke at that time ? A. She thought lie was not. — .Q. Was the witness at Mrs. Clarke's house in Glou cester-place A. She had been there. Q. flow Giten - 1 A. She had bees them several times on the imailleAt of •Colonel 511aw em -Q. 144. st i e betn.with itip.Curte - on any other-occasion ? A. Yes, on'tliat' 0i Jilhason and Williainson.-- - -Q, Had she been with. her on occasions of any other transaction, except those -Of Shame, Johnson and Williamson ? A. She could not recollect.—Q. He - understood that the witness •had given in the names of several others ; were these the only business on which the witness had gone to Mrs. Clarke'st A. she had never gone cin any par ticular business, except that of Colonel Shaw, and the papers had all been returned. Q. Was the witness Well acquainted with the house in Glouceiter-place ?A. She had-been in several of the rooms.—. Very handsome furniture in that Q house ?A. Yes.—Q. Magnificent ?A. Yes.—Q. How long had she been acquainted with Mrs. Clarke? A. Since Mt —Q. Was it on Colonel Shaw's bu siness she went first to Mrs. Clarke's ? A. She had gone before that time.—Q. On what occasion ? A. She heard that Mrs. Clarke had the power of pro curing commissions. —Q . Did the witness wish to en gage in the business of procuring commissions ? A. Yes.—Q. For whom ? A. For no particular person: she had fallen into misfortunes, and had gone to Mrs. Clarke with a view to get employment in the negoci ation of commissions, in order to retrieve her own embarrassments..—Q. The witnessfrequently received letters'from Mrs. Clarke, did she not ? A. Yes.—Q. What was the last time she received a letter from Mrs. Clarke ? A. She always returned them the first time she iiw her after.—Q. Repeated. A. The last let. ter she received from Mrs. Clarke was on the business of Colonel Shaw,' she believed. Q. The witness then never kept any of Mrs. Clarke's letters by her ? A.' No.—Q. Was it an invariable rule to return them ? A. Yes. Q. (By Mr. R. WILLIAMS) The witness had said, that she had been in most of the rooms of the house at Gloucester-place ? A. Yes.—Q. Then how did she reconcile that with what she before stated, that she had only seen Mrs. Clarke twice ? A. She did not recollect to have stated that. [lt appeared that the witness had only said, that she had seen Mrs. Clarke twice since a certain period.]—.Q. The wit ness had said that she had not visited Miss Taylor from motives of delicacy. -How was.it that the same delicacy did not prevent her visiting Mrs. Clarke ? A. She had before stated the reason that induced her to visit. Mrs. Clarke. Q. (By Lord MILTON) Who told the witness that Mrs. Clarke had commissions to dispose of ? A. Ge neral report.—Q. He wished the witness would en deavour to recollect some individual ? A. She did not recollect any individual. She remembered hay. ing asked a Gentleman for Mrs. Clarke's address. —Q. Who was that Gentleman ? A. It was a Mr. Taylor, who had married Mrs. Clarke's sister.--Q. What was the object of the witness in asking for Mrs. Clarke's address ? A. That she might call on her.— Q. Why did the witness return her letters ? A. She desired that she should do so.—Q. Did she state her reason ?A. That it might not be known that - she was engaged in trafficking for commissions. The witness was then ordered to withdraw. Sir GEORGE HILL observed, that a letter had been given in from the Archbishop of Tuam, which he could not at that time insist on having read, be cause tlzough connected with the Archbishop, he was not able to speak to his writing. His Honourable Frikeicti(Mr. Beresford) having now come into the, House, and he being able to speak to the writing, he wished it should be proved in order to have the let ter read ; for he was convinced that *the Archbishop of Tuam would write nothing which he would be un willing to have read in any assembly whatever. Mr. BERESFORD repeated the last observation, and upon looking at the letter said that he believed it . to be the hand-writing of the Archbishop of Timm. The letter was then read by the Clerk. It was I signed " Tuam," and addressed to the Rev. Dr. O'Meara. It stated, that, in consequence of the ap plication of Dr. O'Meara, the writer had no objection to declare, that Dr. O'Meara was a min of tmexceps tionable character, of a respectable family and inde pendent fortunq. This was the whole substance of it. Mrs. CLARKE was then called in and-examined. Q. (By Colonel WARDLE.) Did the witness know. Colonel Shaw ? A. Yes.—Q. Did she recollect ap plying for an appointment for him through the me dium of the Duke of York ? A. Yes.—Q. What ap pointment was that ? A. That of Lieutenant-Colo.; nel, and some situation on the Sraff.—Q. Was the I witness to have any pecuniary remuneration in case i she procured the appointment for him ? A. Yes, she 1 was.—Q. What was it ?A. She could n ot well re i I collect the sum.—Q. Did she inform the Comman der in Chief of the application, and the offer made I to her ? A. Yes ; she did. He wished t o be a p - pointed to a corps in the Isle of Man, where his fa- i ther had been Deputy Governor.—Q. Did the wit ness mean to say that she applied for this appoint- I ment ? A. Yes ; but there were stronger claims from other qnarters.—Q. Did the witness apply for any other situation for him ? A. Yes.—Q. What was that ?A. The situation which he now held.—Q. I Did the witness receive any pecuniary remuneration i I for this ?A. Yes, she did.—Q. Did she recollect how, she received the money ? A. She received 3001. from Colonel Shaw, and 2001. from some other man.— ; Q. Was she satisfied With the 001. ? A. No.--Q. Did she on this account complain to the Commander ,in Chief ?A. Yes.—Q. What was the consequence l of that complaint ? A. His Royal Highness said, that 1 he had told her all along, that she had to deal with a man who required. peculiar care ; and that he I ' -would put him 'on half pay.---Q. Was he actually' I put on half pay ? A. Yes ; and he wrote her sever a'. letters, in consequence of which she took little notice, as she thought he was already very well off, consi- i &ring his conduct towards her. One of the letters was given in and read. It con- i t tained a dismal complaint of the injury which he had ; suffered. He apologised for the intemperance of some t of his former letters, and asserted_ that his conduct to Mrs. Clarke would stand perfectly fair when the whole of the circumstances were developed. He solicited her good offices in getting him restored to full pay, 1 and remove the obstacle to his family joining him at the Cape, and that he would give an additional se3oo. I IQ. (Examined by Mr. CRO AKER.) He understood I that the witness had before said, that she never had'' represented herself as a widows did she still abide by that assertion ?A. Yes, she never said so.--Q. Had . She never said that she was a widow ? A. She had never said so, except on occasion of the Court Mar.; ' dal., to which she hub formerly adverted.. Iliac eves. ,said so es py,Atker occasion k rant be_ in,jnicr•— '9. Frad she eVer said so on ant occasion - e .ctpt that of the Court Martial ? If the Oentleman %%wild put her in mind of it, she would answer.te the best of • her recollection. r .Q. Repeated.—.A. I-beg leave to repeat the vim! . answer. Mr. CROAKER—If the Committee thinks that a sufficient answer, I•nrn satisfied. __ Q. Had the witness called herself by any other name than that of Clarke since 1800 ? A. She did not re• collect that she ever did ; but it was not unlikely that she might have done it, to 'avoid bailitft , .--.Q.'Wei it so conunon a thing with the witness to represent herself under false names, that she could not recolleet Any particular time or place ? A. She only wished that the gentleman would point out the instance, and she would answer the qudtion immediately. Q. Had she ever called herself by the name of Dowler ? A. No ; but it was not unlikely that others shOuld have called her so ; she never represented her self as so called.---Q. The witness was positive that slig never called herself by the name of Dowler ? A. No ; she could not recollect without being told : it must have been in joke if she ever said 50..-. Q. When the witness lived at Hampstead did she not go by the name of Dowler ? A. No. She went by her own name.—Q. Or in the neighbourhood of Hampstead? A. She went by her own name only.—Q. Whose was the house in which she lived at Hampstead ? A. It belonged to a Mr. Nichols.—Q. How long did she live there ? A. Some months.—Q. During the whole of thetiine she went by her own name ? Yes.—Q. What year was that ?A. The end of 1807, and part of 1808. Q. The witness had said that she had only seen Dowler twice since his arrival in Englan ; once when he called on her, and once in the witne 1 s room. Did she still abide by that assertion ? A kd i As she was afraid of being caught in a story, she would say that she had seen him once besides.—Q. Did she not say that she had only seen him twice ? A. It was true she had seen him twice ; but she might have seen him three times (a laugh.) Q. Where has she seen him the third time she alluded to ? A. In this House. Q. How often besides these three times had she seen • him, since his arrival in England? A. Once or twice since yesterday.—Q. The witness was not afraid now of being caught in a story, and would answer with perfect recollection—How much oftener than she had mentioned had she seen Dowler ? A. If the Gentleman wished her to say that she had seen him oftener, she would say so if it answered any purpose. CHAIRMAN—It is my duty, and a painful one it is, to inform the witness, that she is not to make obser vations upon the proceeding of the Gentleman who is examining her, but to answer the questions directly. Mrs. CLARKE.—I have done so as well as I recol lect. Q. Does she shape her answers so as to make them agreeable to the person who is examining her ? [A cry of no, no, no !—Withdraw, withdraw ! ] Q. At what other times, and in what other places had the witness seen Mr. Dowler since his arrival in England ? A. She had seen him at his own hotel.— Q. When ? A. On the same night on which he re• turned, which was to be a perfect secret, as she did not wish that her family should know of it. [The meaning of this answer being very evident, there was some confusion in the Committee, as many members appeared to think-Shea-Mee of examiaatioa improper.] The wi mess was then ordered to withdraw. • Mr. CROAKER defended the question he had put, but was very ready to leave it to the sense of the Corn. mittee. Mr. WILBERFORCE thought that the House must be sufficiently disgusted with some of the evi dence that had already been adduced, and he depre cated entering any farther into a line of examination • that did not appear to him to bear upon the question, but to be altogether unworthy of a Legislative As sembly. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought the question which was put was perfectly fair. It was of the utmost importance that the cha. • racter not only of Mrs. Clarke, but of Mr. Dowler, should be tried as much as possible. Mr. Dowler had represented himself-as a most unwilling witness, and stated that he never saw Mrs. Clarke more than twice before his first examination : and that the first time he called upon her was merely to deprecate his being called to the Bar of that House as a witness. It was therefore necessary that the House should ap.• preciate the credibility of Mr. Dowler as well as pf Mrs. Clarke. Mr. FITZGERALD thought the question entirely irrelevant to the matter at issue, and leading only to. private scandal that was quite extraneous to the mat ter in issue. If the time of the House was to be taken up in idle conversations and idle examinations of this kind, the business would never be concluded. Mr. CROAKER explained. He thought the ques tion had led to a most important fact. If it was true that Mr. Dowler and Mrs. Clarke passed the night together, they had time enough for concerting any , plot. . Sir GEORGE WARRENDER allowed that Mrs. Clarke had in this, as well as some other in: stances, contradicted herself. It was not, however, contradictions of this kind which could seriously in validate her testimony. If, in the main point upon which her evidence went, she could be contradicted, if it could 134 proved that Dowler got his appointment in any other way than that - -which she stated, sucla contradictions would be important ; but if it was only contradictions of this nature that they expected to get, he did not think it worth while pursuing the examination. Mr. BRAGGE BATHURST thought, that wisest there was only one person to speak to positive eon. ruption, it was necessary that the credit of that person should be sifted as closely as possible. Mr. ADAM thought it necessary, fully, as much with the view of trying the credit of Mr. Dowler as that of Mrs. Clarke. At present, Mr. Dowler had deposed to a fact, from which it was impossible to move him, as no contradictory evidence could be produced. It therefore becameabsolutely necessary, to try what degree of credit he was entitled to. . Mn:s CLARKE was' then called in again, and her eaamination was continued. Q. Whether the witness has seen Mr. Dowler maw than twice since his Tatum from Portugal ? A. I May have seen,him oftener than twice.—.Q. Wiser* tine witness see him t A. I saw him once * his hotel.—Q. How.often did the witness see him at his .1* • • 1,101(e/117'AX • .1,11 was done • 'ts Clarke ? A '•, hreAk off , of '. le d a y in milk] t r ,te from Mrs. ( for the rnoi p ern coule P en b tni ld she cou ke se nt for it -I ' n • a nd state h t he 1 11[1' no t describe :3 bat his inter e reco mmer I.:aye of at hich peril 1-lighne th 3Q. After this, Y A. Yes. lonel Shav A Shaw . I d, off and :1„., , , nce respect ( 1 . • • r, ti:at A. 71 1 .,1 to 1' ; • K.lcw th t h a . .d not ▪ did n \Viler. `'"'• i ' .imetlts, nd inn" s:cor.d apl Clarke ? • the date ' • ( • fi s"' • be llecern r:re:faC.)n ? A. I t of visitin ;: rr , t renuently. cannot r) April Q. Wire you i c.lp;cl Shaw ? Lim frequently, and he ..i , per.cc.—. ( 2. tea? I return EMIT', two or t r..Dt c,lknolt; le.ween Colone By Mr. Dot Wally, Or by z a: a eitncss at rs: Taylor. Si Taylor td::er or ieput !Teak from hea Q. Flom what • believe, j: - .1„:e between I A. snort cow b A. i Jo not Shaw at Tersz., and, i rt:c.w. of bad 1.1.1 not return , sometbit Tayl dcn't suppose sta. • rd. - . FULL re tat she v quest Arrc trr.:,:nation t( BARI - Icvant, and s; r.er,cu who W he: retson for EULI f.,:ts:l.ernale lie ins that he child sht : BAT: • ar to a_aal I •••• .:(: to witn •:rJtn ; • WAS ( Dy N kn, :s TIC rc - .: sec l'.om merely Q• (By • A. J ! I . llb wh • 0. . (.:lark, I v ✓ated all 11 Ct. 'Plc lo 1 . 12VC: t] 5 . .(tr ',ll - 1E 1 wtt ( •,..: (..• • • . erc