The Express. — London, England, 1850-04-20 00:00:00

i II ii IMPERIAL PARLIAMENI. H 01.7811 OF LORDS—FRIDAY, Aran. 19. The Image met sit ay. Veleta. Lord LAXODALIII tit Ihnikm PUBLIC BUSINESS. SMOKE PROHIBITIOI4 cm see m stc7a - oi io i dli iI)1 II iiili:a i . bill wi. nod • sewed taw. SCHOOL DISTRICTS CONTRIBUTION BILL. Oa the =Was el Ike Minch at LANSDOWNE, this WA was reed • seem' time. IRISH POOR LAW. _ _ _ _ _ TM Marquis .1 WILSTfI XATM peneated • ponies from Me beard of use dies of In wain of Carrieh-mc Shentaa, complains' of Le eanagentat saimeadset of the late vim guardian sad MLR allalel perm= ettassulleg therewith. He 'Meld also men foe • select evincible, to lamirigate ad rep , rt apse all the allegation and awns annind ha the mid polities. in peados set forth may allegation. an wept other things. eamplaised of Le Laden of the vicogurdiaes, and it imigni Lto detaiL to new their lavish and anweassiry peaditure of the fans et the main. It stated the somber wad amounts of the rates which had twee levied dm tie vice guardians had beau appointed. by whin it sp. pear•d that 41,0001. had bees impended is 21 meallai The ante martini. Lea complaini d of the inseam of pauperism sad of the somber of women end eltildn• 1. the salon who had bora dmested by their husbands sod Lan It had name quite a system fee• to to dent his holly L ceder that they might Weems elmrgeobb to the pada. He emplaned aso that aa egiormess use of mosey INN levied for peer rates without say standard valuation bong said. although Le goverment had the ordain* volved= if they nen to set upon P. The pstitiotten also stated that 11,M31. receneed uncollected in their twin, and the state el the law was so incomplete that it was almost inoperative waist prams unwilling to pay. The petitioners had goes Wesel the ceremony of endeavouring to enforce • rate of 12,000 i , including the arrears, and had been obliged to is form the eemmistiosen that it was impoetible they could collect it • sad in coserquenat they bad asked gormission to he Mimed to do L to two instalments, bat this had been rem& There Sere various other cams of mismanagement stated by ea the pedismees, sad kabala be prove them Weal a eamentitee; the •ppeiatmwt of which he did SO Nish das abbe marquis w. aid infest ts. TIN Wad of MOUNICASBEL seconded the proposition. IS big spines • very strong ease bad been made, for Ike amens of • committee, by hie able friend ; and fEmeMe he aped the hull would aseede, that a fell z grity a . might be had for silting the entire cue then The Marquis of LANSDOWNE: There existed great eon fusion and oilman ; and he always agreed with thou who thought that abases would result from the introduction of tie poor laws into Ireland by reason of the difficulty, he would say the impowihility, of ending in that matey fit Metrumenai to carry the law into effect. But the speedos was whether ill deo precautionary measures had been taken by her Majesty's iniat, as also by the poor-law commie. stoners, for preventing those abuses. At the present moment the vice guardians, who formed the subject matter of de bate, had erased to officiate, and the late poor law inspector was no longer an inspector. Now, in examining into the abuses that were alleged to have occurred during the ad ministration of these vice-guardians, it was necessary to consider what was the administration of the awes by the elected guardians, previous to the appointment of the vies guardians. The abuts by commission and ornissioa were such that a necessity was felt for milky( on parliament to place the administration at affairs in the hands of vice,guardians— (hear, hear)—aad in the very cam to which the present peti ties referred the vies-guardians were appointed in tease queen of the repeated representations made to the commis stoners to the a Hen that ms ideated guardians did aot and were not doing their duty. (Hear, heal In consequence of the guardians not doing their duty and not fulfilling the specific act of duty undertaken by them, to sit daily during the period of famine and afford relief to the perishing mul titude, the poor law inspector was obliged to perform the duties of the guardiaea, who, though they issued summonses So a t tend for relief, provided sot the means to afford that relief, and consequently the poor law inspector had cast upon him the duty of attending to the poor, which ditfLulty he met and provided for. (Hear, hear.) Bader these einem , stuns, and geeing that contracton would not contract with the guardian., who neglected to have the rate collected, because they were not certain of being paid, provisions moat have oast more than they otherwise would, were the case is. cloven and deliberate dealing. (Hear, hoar.) He (the Marquis of Lansdowne) would not then comment on the charges made against the poor law inspector ; but this be would say, as being authorised, that that victim= was most desirous of enquiry, and was then taking the nectuauy steps to have the matter lavretigated more closely, this any enquiry which their lordships might grant could mom plash, newly. by as action for libel against the pasties. (lint, hear.) Under all the eineusetesen of the case he did not think that as inquiry could lead to any beneficial result; and, therefore, he must decline to accede to the motion e the able marquis. Lord STANLEY said that he had listened with surprise to the statement of the noble marquis who had just sat down, aid to the light sad say manner in which he treated the allegations contained in this petition. The soble mar quis said that there might have been • little profusion— some trifling neglect —on the part of these vice guardiaas, but that • similar charge was equally appli. gable to the local guardians whom they superseded, and that they would be bound to Investigate the con doe' of the one as well se the other. But he must observe that there was • disdactioa between guardians who were elected by the rate payers to 'dateline the funds for the relief of the poor and paid guardians appointed for that purpose by the Poor-law Commiselooen, with the sanction of her Majesty's government, and for the conduct of whom, U they appeased unfit instruments or made as improper sefecums, they were responsible to parliament. (Hear, hear.) Be had a return of 35 unions which bad been under the superintendents of vice-guardians tor • period varying from • yes: to twenty-one months. la cull five or six or at most seven or eight of these unions had there been may diminution of expesditure. la the remainder brad ionises td from 111,1211. to 223,7441., in addition to which these unions received contsibutioas oat of the rate in aid to the amount of 164,6321. (Hear, hoar.) Tilers was am illustration from • paper furnished by the government Itself of the economical working of the poor law by these vice guardians. I Hear, hear.) What was this palliator case ? The total valuation of the CanickioniShaasou salon was 40,0001. Of this 45,0001, or three. fourths of the whole, lured through the hands of the vice guardians aeontroLled by the local reepayen, and at the period of their quitting Alin they insisted on levying • further rate of 15,0004.—that was a rate el b.. is the gonad on the valuation of the aim, in addi ties es Ile. w hi ch had been levied in the previews period. (Hoer, heir.) Bet he would aot complain of this If the fade se raised had been properly 'dais/Aired. Bat what did he led ? If the Poor Law Commissioners were rupee milder for anythiar, it was for the character of the anew whom they appointed. Now, whom did they appeiat in the present instance. Mr. Robinson was one who left the plass is debt to every one, even for the rent of his lodgings. (Hear.) W.s not that •WO of profusion, neglect, and gnu misoieduct on the part of • government officer; and there was no case in which perbamiset should be more disposed to gnat inquiry than into • sass of gross misconduct on the part eta government abler. After they had left the office, it was found that 196 piteous were ea the register who were au in the house, and roam had been rated kr these persons at the nuts et the aim during Mx mouths under the supernateadenoe of these vice-guanleas. (Hear, pawlter. Was this a trifling uses of prehrioe, to be lightly over? But that was net all. 4,000 quarts of milk sa d supplied winkly for the support of a house is which there were 1,637 pumas, yet cm the removal of the vice-guardians it was road that there was not moult ter 356. (Hear, bear.) The anteater toe fuel was in the habit of ch arging ea ton as 28 ea. (Hear, hear.) Over 2,000 mime of clothing had been abstracted, or were at all snots wasting. Surely this mast be • case of imposition —neglect could not go so far! (Hear, bear.) But, further more. 0 Jed God! was this a trifliagaeglect—it was found that the saw in the beds of the paupers had not been changed for • period of seven months. (Loud cries of " hear.") It was no wonder that from this gross and flagrant neglect alums ad death should have arisen; hut stilt, said the noble marquis, this is not a cues fur inquiry. (Hear, hen.) Tbe nothing of the boon was found to be quite rot lea ad had to be bunted with the regal the paupers. Now, let the bane boar ia mind that this gross neglect had taken place under the administration etiolate,. appointed by the go verannat,asel that the ratepayers were obliged to pay for this wales waste. (Hear, hear.) To refuse nquiry into the facts, It was not sufficient to ay that these ' pineal 04 loafer held their appointments, because he main tained that the nommaisaus who appointed such anus, and the grey meat who sanctioned the appointments, were reepossible for, he would aot ay the negate, but the roes and culpable dereliction of day ea the put of these pu mas. (Hear.) The Merquis of LANSDOWNE said that the only reluc tance he had to ghat the commitose was that thew persons ware no Memo in office, and assuming the case of anklet of duty, that nothing more weld be attained by • eseamittee than what had already been done—their diewtheel ben Gibe.. Bat se the able lord had put the ease as asset corruption in the discharge of a public office he sheahl ha the 411 person to wish to throe any obstacle in the way at an inquiry of that kind. (Hear, hear.) After. few words from Laid fleamtar and the Marquis, of WIINTMEATII. The motioa for the appointateat of • committee was agreed to, and the house adjaarsed at a little after half past urea o'clock. HOUSE OF COMM(JNS.—FILIDAT, APRIL 19. The Spam's& took the chair at 4 o'cloek. PUBLIC BUSINESS. PETITIONS PRESENTED. Tan Maur Tax.—By Lord RENDLESIIAM, from • plate in Sufftik, against the malt WI. lIIIIVIS/U.ITY Tarr. —By Mr. COWAN, from Edinburgh, la favour of the repeal of them MM. BLICTI% Z FRANC ZINO rIITRALLII). -By Mr. F. from 100 kers, of land In the district of Part Phillip. Awitralis, urging their claims to the elective Ebt CATION BILL.-B Mr. COBDEN , from cAgrega tiost of II ai;o te Chapel, Doncaster; Lori DUNCAN, from Beth; in favour of thle hill. LA W)l' It In FACTOIIIES.—By Mr. COBDEN, from Wm. Thompson, nsill.oceepler, Itawdon, Yorkshire. praying for ag estonsion of time of working in factories to GI t ours p er week. trJARCIIRR Idr. T. PRIMO y . gavo notice that on COURT. Woodsy next be would mon Mr a Mors of the number of days and boars ' , t 6a.. THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY Lamm* a g s jii Ur i g =on lho nimbus should be oloosad. or Weinman, of lho pure mute mod the shoshl bill disk pubion fee aloes period, If sot he MAP Notbfrai. midi be min positive than 11~ opMilh alpid Ibb twin of ttroguesiall ' I s Mufti MI MO IN tiemion. Sowleihstiblie, • iespollitbi obelus re coivol=this renal of that ision km a i t Ishii be wise. = Nov. li t IMO My Iced iata 4=rospecis sib, and bloontfal mamba of .—As lb, having mind resolution on tbal ibe mew dads i= ID he offidlehod in the Aneln oweined isd I should at awn hwiragi Ik tome. e P. orpolally al du gosior v ojasuallem Whig lo usag the uthistle• Of tho pitmen& aaip lo Mc miss of Me' flbt M. Sag tafoorad In int ramiatisa as orneding esufawbonalma b e mad said monsimolly_ thrly may bo bi l= " beir e orr isk propoled tromihosmoo to Boalb Autrolia of th us *ideal and said inssitaisno of Omit Britain, W *kith this mei ertaisor ani Om of tho empire have bora gradually ellilprogrooivoly malorgod sad strangthenod, and'preserved." He rood a portion of those resolutions on asking • question the other eight. He seed not repeat thou, but would oohy observe that they were quite hostile to the government bill. The system of Now South Wales was at variance with a fundameotal maim of the British constitution. For, accordieg to Blackstrne, one of the great printery righta of the subject was not to be Wed without the enuent of his representatives; that was, without the mane of the majority of his repressatoUvis. Now, with a single climber, of which ass-third of the members were appoistad by the executive, the exwutivo could always with this aid of lota than one. third of the elective aurobors carry desayy mann is opposition to the wham of sots than dim roponsontotivos of the people, and therefore they snail tag rho people without the corneae of their is evidently • most unconstitutional proceeding. eve too . was sot ma isuginary danger. Tao tendency of nay ousisthis, and saps sally of • colonial oleos executive, woe Maoris emiseloo 4mpoditur• and therefor* towards exossiva tuatism. I. IBM Oaf jocose Si would have bon inereasod to rive par sent., and there would have been no reduction of expenditure if the 'motive could have iscommoodod • acquity in this house, aid it would witti est ameba lays commanded • majority of the third of Ma hum, namely, 220 sesseben ' bed they been sominsiod by the executive. In Now South Warns, is ossionsanos of the inflames of the executive in the legisla tive sonuctl, the expenditure In proportion to the pola tiosi, was very gnat. Ia 1848 ro it amounted to 28s. per bud the population ; ns twice the anneal avenge rata of ex penditure per head of the population is the colonies ahleh possessed representative institutions ; or four times the rat. of oxpooditurs in Canada, where the people had the greatest Mmtrol over their expenditure. It win a fact whisk be had ranee board disputed, aad which he proved to the house at groat length two years ISO, that the rate of expenditure per hood of the population in our colonies depended chiefly apes Cho form of their local government. It was greater ISSN In propsrtion se the Csionisl-oftle• had MOM Oe less to do with it, that was in proportion as there was more or Miss Colonialkofflos nomination ; for instance, in 1846 hi the colonies is which there were no nominees itithelliosue of Arnosably the rate of expenditure was 14s. per bend:of their population ; in those colonies which were governed entirely by atimiaatioa the rated ezpenditoro in 1845 was about 34e. per hood of their population, or 20s. per head more than in the salmi's without siowsinoss in the Horns of Assembly. Tim greatest rat* of expenditure we. in Van Diouson's Lind, entirely governed by nomination, when it unwanted in 1864 to Me- a head of the fns population, and the awn/lest was in Canada, when it amounted to about owe twelfth of that sus, or Ts. per hood. This fact showed the extreme effects of the two distinct systems of nomination and election with regard to the economical government of a colony. Bo- 'woes these two extreme* stood the mongrel system of Now South Wales, a cross between comic itioa and els. Lion ; in virtue of election the rase of expenditure of New South Wales was um-third of that of Van Diemen.' Load, in virtue of nomination it was four time* that of Celled'. It sight be unfair to ascribe the whole difference in the roes of expenditure b. tweets New South Wales and Canada ino tire), to nomination, but it must ha acknowledged that at times the executive did carry measures in New South Wale" against the wishes of the majority of the representatives of the people, which could not be done by the executive IS Quads. A use in point was cited the ether night by the noble lord the Prime Minister. He rejected as worthless and of no authority • resolution which was ear ned in • full meeting of the legislaqva cooed! of New Boath Wales. Ile did so on the Remade that it was carried against the wishes of more than two thirds of the representatives who were present, he therefore treated it as invalid. But if that resolution had been a tax ordinance, or one for the expenditure of money, it would have been but too valid for taking the money out of the pickets of the people of New South Wales. Therefore be might affirm that the practical working of the system of Now South Wales did not prove that it would be the best calcu lated to empire judicious, prudent, and economical government in Van Dieusan's Lard and South Australia. It was said, however, that the question of • single chamber partly nominated had been settled with retard to New South Wales, and therefore ought to be considered to be settled for all the Australiam colonise. For it was argued that these colonies form one system, and were so close together that they ought to have identical institutions. It appeared to him that the hon. gentleman +ho used this argument fancied that the Australian coke - its were as close together as British counties. He assured them It was not so. Mohan Town, the capital of Van Diemen's Land, was about 700 miles ft,ren Sydney, the capital of New South Wales—that was, as fir as from hen to Milan. Adelaile.ths e spited of South Australia, was about 850 miles from Sydney. Pertb, the capital of Western Australia, was about 1,700 miles from Sydney, or further than from here to Con tentinople. Our five Ant tralian colonies of Van Diemen's Land, New South Wales, Viet 'via, South Australia, and Western Australia cover a. I.rge a portion of the earth's surface as was covered by Great Britain, France, the whole of Germane, the whole of the AtittriUk empire, and all Turkey in Europe; and the fir• capitals of these colonies—namely, Hobart Town, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelside, and Perth were as distant from etch other as Edinburgh, Paris, Hamburg, Vietnam, and Con stantinople are from each other. (Hear, hear.) There fore, supposing for one moment that prosimity in space were a valid argument in favour of identity of insti tutions, every honourable gentleman who would rub up his geography would perceive the absurdity of that argument on the present occasion. Suppose, how ever, that we were to start all these colonies with this saws insti•ntions, was it not said that we were to give them power to alter and amend their instittedons ? If this power was to be a reality and not a sham, they would have power to mate their institutions differ as soon as they Amish% proper; and the worse the first institutions were, the sooner the colonists would endeavour to alter them : then what would become of the absurd identity of the icritntions moment ? Was it to be enforced by the Colonial-office? Were the colonies not to change their institutions, unless they did se at the same time and in the same manner ? Therefore the argument that all the Australian colonies must have the same institutions mtpht be rejected as absurd and futile. The last argument which he had to refute was that which is commonly used by very many gentlemen who readily ac knowledged that a legislature composed of two elective houses WAS a far better and more perfect form of government than a legislature composed of • single partly nominated chamber. This position was clearly, distinctly, and emphatically ad. mitted by Lord Grey, who also admitted that thisAustr.lian colonies must ultimately penea two elective chambers ; but they said Van Diemen's Lend and South Australia were not et at present for so perfect a form of governmeat , beaus* these colocin did not contain the materials for two elective chambers. Its called upon them to orove that position. Ile asked were the materials wanting in cot sequence of the smallness of the population of tl en colonies, or In comm. quoin of the particular character of that population Or, in other words, was the population of those colones too scanty to admit of two elective &am. ben, or was it morally and int. Ilectuslly unworthy of possessing so perfect a form of government ? Now he 1847 the population of Van Diemen's Land, exclusive of the military, and of all persona who had been transpeotsd, amounted to 32,000 souls; and in 1848 the plpslation of South Avast:alio amounted to 38,000 souls. New, the ezoerkenco of the United States proved that an apikary Anglo-Sexon 'community with the population of these Colonies contained sufficient materials for two @hashes. In proof of this position, he would call the atomise the committal to the famous ordinance of Congress, Rued In the year 1787, for the government of the rerritaaffyyOf fir United States north-west of the river Ohio. This said Mr. Story had been, in 'most respects, the model of all the torritori4 governments of the United States, and it woe remarkable for its masterly display of the fun'tamental prin ciples of civil and religion, liberty. It provided that as soon as a territory contained 5,000 male inhabitant.. of WI ass, that was a population of about 20,000, mode, it should have a legislature, to consist of a governor, nominated by congress ands legislative conceit, and a !Rule of Representative., both to be elected by the people : and that them should be one member of the House of Represents gm for every 600 male inhabitants of full age ; that was for about every 2,000 souls The prilviples of that ordinance had worked admirably. Since 1787 seventeen territori.s and states had been constituted and added to the American Uaion, and then states and territories eon. Mae& in 1840, a population of 6.600,000 souls. Every one of these eontnt. fatties, and in fact every one of the thirty-two states and territories of the American Union, was governed by two houses of legislature, and in almost every ono of them the upper house, or senate, was constituted In the same general manner. The senate, et onpared to the House of liepreeentatives, was almost always a smaller body, oemposed of older men, representing larger districts, holding their authority by a tenure of longer dura tion and sleeted by rotation. The objects of such a senate, according to the renowned authors of the " Federalist," the highest emsatitutional authority in the Uelted States, were to guard " against the propensity of all single and nume rous assemblies to yield to the inipu'ae of sudden and violent passions, and to be seduced by factious leaders into intent perste and pernicious resolutions ;" to supply the " want of due acquaintance with the objects and principl. a of legisla tion ; and to prevent mutability in public councils." And se one can deny that in the federal union and also in the states of the union the gentles had aelompliehed the ob jects for which they ware constituted, and deserved and gained the confidence and respect of the pe*.e. It was evident, therefore, that if our colonies of Vas Diemen's Land and South Australia belonged to the Amadei= lection of the Anglo-Saxon race, they 'costa h e vo b e e s treated as Illinois was in 1809, or Wisconsin in 1838, tier lowa In 1838, when these territories were not more populate than Van Diemen's Land and South Australia now wes, and consequently them colonies would have possessed shows of representatives containing from 18 to 21 ment , nr+, and a senate containing from 9 to 12 members; the senators would hays been sleeted by rotation, and for about twice the period of the members of the Amite of representatives. He that Sir Rabin Jaime MO MI oat la No Atoka Court during tho roar Isms tome. TEE NATIONAL LAND CON?ANY. Lord J. RUSSELL he fared that the Mew at In r. am id a4nara to Mr. F. O'CONNOR (*0 ITV= at ins. gain the disunion or it batman Oa has. amber mid Sir E. for nand that hie bill for whaling up the asks of the Natioaal Lead Ansoistkot was propratioa, sad would In prenatal as a private bill es aa - toady Amy. TM mottos wan thsu wood Is. THE STAMP DUTIES BILL. Lord J. RUSSELL wirsM take that opportunity of as. that es M.sdsy Bert his right has. friendt . prMlfir.f the Isskfteer would state what alterations imisniled to Enke is the Stamp Dada Bill, and that k was papeesd to pseud with that bill as the lest eider of iklies Thursday next. MERCANTILE MARINE. Is reply I. ossedisas tress Lord J. Mammas sad Mr. I CAnnwelA. Mr. LABOUCHERE said that them* he we asziem that the dismal= as these bills should she plow as soon as pessible, be was ace, owing to the state of public betimes, able is Is my day (sprit. Ms. CARDWELL thought that the beet coarse would be to withdraw the bill, sod istradase a new as Is as mended for.. Mr. LABOUCHERE nut the usual course was to intro dem aineadmints before going into committee, bet if it were the wish of the home, be would amply with the esemonles. Mr. E. CRAWFORD wished to law whoa the Irish Lesdisrde and Tetuan Bill would be proceeded with. Lord J. RUSSELL mould sot was any day. As he had beim rated he proposed to g. es with the Australian Bill 111Lendey ; on Thursday the goveraseent proposed to take the Stamp Diving Bill, which would oiseupy a cossiderahle time; aad os Friday be would, if possible. bring on the bill tasks; to the eccisnastical oosanissoa. In the subsequent week they most hire one sight for a committee of supply. Lunt CASTLEREAGH.—The Irish Fresehiss Bill ? Lord J . RUSSI LL —Thn Irish Franchise Bill I shall bring oar truly as I can....(Lrgister.).... LOSS OF THE ROYAL ADELAIDE. Mr. F.FijiCIL nid the rightltraT geotieman (air. Laboadiere) had promised to state to the house the effect of the kdormatioa famished to him with regard to this mat. Hs had aaderstood the venal was of the first elms in point of seastrorties. Mr. LABOUCHEBE said be had received from the imams Odle R,yel Adelaide repreetratations, the truth of which he lied no reason to doubt, to the effect that that vowl was extremely well-built, of the drstelus, and aot an old Alp, end that the commander who had charge of her at the time when the layout happened, was experienced and skilful. Frogs the statements of thou who had had an opportunity of witnessing some things connected with the eateetreplu, there appeared norm to believe that it was caused by some sudden @solarise or accident on board, while the vinyl was Libraries under stress of weather. Although it appeared impossible to clear up the mystery which overhung the fate of this unlortunate vowel, he did not believe the calamity was owieg either to her construe tioa or to any want of sk‘ll on the part of the commander. It was, he thought, attributable to one of those misfortunes which, is spite of all care, would oecaskatally betel vessels placed in such a position. ROYAL FORESTS, Lord DUNCAN wished to know whether the govern ment were prepared to lay on the table the report of the commimionen appointed donne the lest amnion to inquire with regard to the New Forest and Waltham Forest ? Lord J. RUSSELL said one of the commissi , ners whom he bad questioned on the subject had stated that the report would be ready neat week. GRAND JURY (IRELAND) BILL. Mr. LAWLESS asked the Siieretaty for Ireland whether he intended to proceed with the Irish Grand Jury Bill during the present mein ? Sir W. SOMERVILLE would do so as 60311 as the state of publie Hines. would allow. AUSTRALIAN COLONIES GOVERNMENT BILL. The house went into committee on the Australian Colo nice Government Bill. Clauses from Ito 4 were agreed to. Clause 6 being pro rated, Sir W. MOLESWORTH said he had only one word to my with regard to this claim. In this clause and in clause 11 it war proposed to nation- the set of the sth and 6th Victoria, which contained • number of provision., and amongst them one which empowered parliament to interfere in the affairs of the colony. It would he inconvenient to enter into • discussion at the present msment, and he would not prevent the committee going into the next clause. Claus 6 being proposed, Sir W. MOLESWORTII moved to omit all the words after the word " that," down to the word " and," in line 39, for the purpose of inserting these wards, " there shall be established in the Colonies of Van Diemen's Lied and South Australia respectively • Legislative Council and a House of Ammahly." In line 39, to omit the word "re mining," and after the word " council " to insert " and House of Assembly." In line 41, after the word " council" to insert " and House of Assembly ; " and after the word "established" to omit the rest of the clause. If this were carried he should proceed to propose other amendments, by which these two chambers would be made elective. He need scarcely observe that at the present mo ment the colonies of Van Diemen's Land and South Ant tralia did not possess representative institutions, but were governed by • legislative council, all the members of which were nominated by the Colonial-office. He might assume that they were all agreed that that form of government should be chang,d, and that these colonies should posses. representative institutions. The question was, what was the best fora of representative government for these colonies to coma-ace with ? The Colonial-office, loth to part with all its powers to , nomination, proposed that they should begin with a smile chamber, of which one-third of the members should hold their seats at the will of the Colonial office. Oa the other hand, he proposed that they should besin with two chambers, both elective. The question, therefore, was amply between election and nominatio n—between two chambers and one chamber. On a former occasion this question was fully dimmed. Envy hon. gentleman who unto was decidedly of opinion that in theory two elec• live chambers were preferable to one partly notninathd chamber, therefore it would be • waste of time to reargue the general question. The committee deal led the other night that New South Wales and Victoria should continue to possum their present tons of government. He did not presume to ask the committee to reverse that decision, but merely to consider the reasons which led them to that decision. and whether they were not inap plicable to Van Diemen's Load and South Australia. It was then asserted that New South Wales and Victoria were well ' satislitsd with their present form of government, and pre- ' fined it to any other form ; therefore that it would be an arbitrary and unjust proceeding to alter it without their eons-vet. The committee should beer in mind that this bill was brought in last year, and that one of the chief reasons assigned for postponing it wee that the delay would enable the boon to receive information from the Australian colonies in reply to the report of the committee of council which had b-en met round to them. Now, within the last few days very important information had been re attired, to which he must beg to call the attention of the committee, and especially toe despatch from the governor of Van Diemen's Land, Sr Wm. Denison, who had always been quoted by the Colonial office as high authority. la that despatch, dated the 28th December lest, Sir William Denison gave his deliberate opinion on this bill, and expressed his decided condemnation of the part which was now under ousideration. He would state only the substance of that pert of his despatch. Sir W. Denison began by saying : 'I have been made aware that her klejetty's government intend to bring thin bill forward again early in the next main of parliament. I think it therefore my duty to point out to your lordship such of the provisions of the bill es would work unsatisfactorily," and he proceeded so to do. He admitted, I have no very actuate means of arriving at the opinion of the body of the community ; indeed, I might almost say, that the satisfac tion with which any measure conferring a representative system of government would he welcomed would go far to prevent any deliberate discussion of is provisions." ' There could be no doubt these colonies preferred any form of representative government to no form of representative government whatever. As regarded his own views, "I observe that the committee of the Privy Council who gave their sanction to the principle of a second chamber, bars recommended that In the Australian coluies thespians of New South Wales, where legislation is entrusted to • daps body, partly nominated, should be generally adopted.' He said he quite agreed that it would be undesirable to press a reform upon an unwilling or even indifferent people, but I doubt very much whether the evi dence in the possession of the government is sufficient to prove that the people of New South Wales are unwilling to adopt such a change in the form of the existing government. Indifferent they may perhaps be, but in that case I would snomit that the welfare of the three colonies now about to be called into political existence, might be allowed to out weigh the mere indifference of the people of Ns wSouth Wales. In reply to the common argument of the Colonial office, that the legislatures of these colonies will have power to amend their institutions, Sir We,, Denison said: " I am afraid that the remedy proposed by the Committee of the Privy Council—as., that of vesting a power in the legisla tures of the different oolosies, of amending their constitu tions, by resolving either of their single houses of timid into two, will hardly meet the evil. A single house as sembly will always attempt to mount, to itself • portion of the p wer of the executive. The proceedings of the Legis lative Assembly at Sydney, during the last session, will afford ample evident* of this tendency." Ile went on to say: " When, therefore • body thus constituted has Pace found itself in the possesiion of power, it is not at nil pro bable that it will originate, or carry oat, • change which will in effect diminish its power, and tend to deprive each individual composing it of a portion of the importance which attaches to him as • member of such a body." Next, in reply to the favourite position of the Colonial-office that all the Australian adoniss should have the same insti tutions, Sir William Dubois said:—" I would submit also that, if each colony be empowered to alter its constitution, the reasons which here induced the committee of council to recommend that all should have governments constituted upon the same model, would seem to have but little weight, as • change on the part or any of the four would at once destroy the uniformity." And, lastly, Sir William Denison said •—" My opinion remains unchanged by an that I have heard or read sines I lest addressed your lordship on this subject. Every additional day that I remain in this colony serves to add to the strength of my conviction that it would be most desirable, when the change in the form of the government of this colony does take place, that • Second Chamber should be constituted at once by the autho rity of parliament. Such • chamber, however. should differ from those which did exist is the North Arian an colonies, EVENING, APRIL 20, 1850. s eer why, dies, did they refine those ionisation to their Australian Expertise@ proved that they were welt adapted to Asalo•fithen esatraalties of a ,lar site la Alperin. It wee said, however, that the laltableasts of their Australiaa missies were morally sad Istrlisethally inferior to the lahabittats of the beekweed ant/sties of the flatted States. Did that inforlerity exist ? Aad if It did wheelie did it arise ? It it did exist it anise ham the Ma ma between the Aserteas laude of eoloaleation sad that of the Coyalakilles. For AMAMI* ookeeleatioa coseisted of the westward it a poetics of the people of the UMW 111lelsa—s portion of ad Moss migrated—My aerie with them is reality, and sot se a legs! Ratios, the laws, the rights, sod the liberties of /Morisse citizen. They were at meat, sod would have It. Ala the best peados the emigrants tram Noshed went to the back wend Mess, sad empmei a large lionise of the po pulation of Wisisewein, fliebegen, and lowa, said, in fact, is Illagliebinae, whim ho migrated to the United grates, lambi with him is reality all the laws, rights, end Marie of en het if he emigrated to their mu esiseles en rushing esisoisl soil he lost some of the most redeem of his liberdes, and became the subject of aa Jemmied sad irresponsible despot at the antipodes. Now, what was the precise difference beltway the two plane ? The noble lord proposed that there should be getiblished in each of these colonies a legislature to consist of not more than four-and. twenty member; and that the number of members, the amount of their quslifications, and the amount of the fres *Mae should be flied by the leoislatures new by law estab lished in these colonies. He (Sir W. Kolesworth) would propose precisely the same thing, and would steppes, for simplicity of argument, that the number of members should be fixed at 24. Next the noble lord proposed that these 24 members should be divided into two classes, of 16 and 8 members respectively. He proposed the same thing, but the noble lord proposed that the eight members should he aomiaated by the Colonial-office, and sit in the same house as the sixteen members who were to be elected by the rople. On the contrary, he proposed that both the eight and the sixteen members should be elected by the people, and sit in different homes. There fore the question between the noble lord and himself was simply this, was it likely or not that the Colonial office would by nomination select out of the materials in these colonies eight men for each colony who would be better qua lilted to be members of a legislature than those which the in. habitants of these colonies would themselves elect? That was the whole question stripped of extraneous matter, idle fallecie, and other modes of deception and mystification. That wee the question for the committee to decide. Those who voted with the noble lord, and against his motion, would vote for Colonial-ofhoe nomination and against popular election—would vote implicit confidence in the Colonial office, and no coat fence in the inhabitants of these colonies, and would vote that their Australian colonists were so morally degraded, and so intellectually despicable, that they ought not to be entrusted with institutions which theory and experience ; had proved to be best adapted for the government of similar communities of Angl*Saxon men in other portions of the globe. The amendment was then put Mr. /I DENISON said that he had a short time before been very anxious for the success of this bill, even though the house seemed to be in favour of two chambers. Since that, however, he had had sufficient reasins for chang ing his opinion. What was the case as regarded New South Wales? It was said that the inhabitants of New South Wales were generally satisfied with the insatations they possessed. It was argued that it would be unwise ann nereseosable in them to interfere with those institutions with which the colony itself was artist d. The argu. nest was that at that time they did not possess sufficient information to guide them in making any change of policy in that rep Lei. Tit , es reasons did appear to him to be sufficient to justify him in eupportieg the pr voeitioa at it presented itself to them. In the course, how ever, of the discussion on the matter, one of its most impor tant features fell to the ground, namely, the federa•ion prin ciple. They bad several motions before them objecting to that principle, and a despatch from Earl Grey, in which he said that the federative principle would be inoperative, and that although at some future period it might be useful, yet for the present it must be put oat of consideration. Did the noble lord at the head of the government recollect when he brought forward this bill that the measure which was intro duced for the management of waste leads in the eolony of New South Wales would be rendered abortive, and he asked him whether it was his intention that that measure was net to come into operation ? Lord J. RUSSELL said that was not his intention. Mr. E. DENISON said that be thought, from what been stated by the noble earl (Grey) in his despatch, that such must be the consequence. I; would be most foolish in him to misquote the noble earl, and he wished to know what be meant, when he said that this pert of the bill would be in operative, for it related to the management of waste lands, which wee by the bill vested in the federa tive assembly. Therefore, the management of the wa , te lands could not come into operation until the federative a-sembly was formed. This information he had received since they last considered the question. The hon. baronet who had just addressed the house had called its attenti n to I despatches from the colonic', but he could not have seen one which had come that morning, and which had be. n laid on the tab's of the house, and which was much more favourable to his purposes than anything which he had brought forward. Ile (Mr. E. Denison) would take the Ebert y of supplying the de fi ciency which h a d occurred mei ; dectelly In toe hon. b.ronet's speech. They had received, not only a despatch from Sir H. Y.ang, but 'solutions which were passed in the legislative council on Saturday, the 15th December, 1849. It seemed that Earl Grey sent out a deep itch, calling Sir H. Young to account for having published a propoeitien of the mem bers of the legislative council, and he directed him for the future not to take that course, stating that it would be in his opinion several months before the subject could he din-, cussed, and that it was highly inconvenient that a proposal ' of that kind should be put before the country. But within I the period of one month after the despatch had been pub- I lished, on the 15th of D:cembir, the question had been con sidered, discussed, and passed, and a uespatch, containing the resolutions of the legislative council, accomp oiled by the opinion of the governor, sent to Earl Grey. The re solu.ions which had passed the council were to the effect that the legislature should consist of a governor and two chambers. They stated what the upper and lower chambers should be composed of The lower chamber was en consist of representatives freely chosen by the people, sod the upper chamber was to consist of persons to be nominated by ht r Majesty's government for life. (Hear, hear.) That was the proposal of the council. The members of the legis. halve council of South Australia said that there should be two chambers—one to be elected by the people, and the ether to be nominated by the crown for lite. They there- liy acknowledged that they were not satis fi ed wiffi the present system. The governor then in his despatch qttaiifici ti-is; he said that he did not concur in the recommeniation that the upper chamber should be nominated by the home I government He agreed, however, with the council in thinking that there should be two chambers. He now, ' therefore, roes to mike an appeal to the noble lord, and to ask him whether, having all this information, he seriously intended to go on with the bill, which in his (Mr. D,nison's) opinion would be nothing more than wasting the time of the house. He did himself intend to support the measure, but having received this information he was compelled to change his mind, and he could only say that it there was only one member in that house to join him, he would give every opposition to so great an injustice being inflicted on the colonies. He could not believe that after ad that had been talked about con sulting the feelings of the c denies, the house would be rolled' upon further to consid-r the bill. The hon. member con cOtied by promising his strenuous opposition to the bill. Lord J. RUSSELL said he thought that if his hon. friend had attended to the circumstances to which he bad referred with rather more care, he would hardly have made the appeal which he had made to him. The hon. gentleman hod made that appeal on the ground that the people of Australia had come to the resolution that they should have two chambers, and was, therefore, favourable to the propoatioa of the hon. baronet the member for Southwark. Now, he would tell the hon. g.ntlentan that, with the exception of New South Wales, there was net in these colonies any representative assembly whatever. (Cheers.) The councils that now existed were legislative councils formed by the 'averment. They were is the phraseology of the hon. haronet the member for Southwark the nominees of the Colonial-office; however improper that phrase may be, they derived their authority from the to yer:tor, who was approved of by her Majesty, and from no other some. It appeared that one of these councils had come to certain resolutions, and these resolutions were to the effect that the legislature elsould consist of • governor and two chambers. That so far seemed to ee the same as the proposal made by the honour able baronet the member for Southwark. But they would find if they went en that the first chamber was to consist of persons appointed by her Majesty fee life, and that the second chamber was to be filled by representatives of the people, with the exception of six persons who were to be considered ez officio members, and to be appointed by the government. These were the colonial secretary, the advo- cate-general, the colonial treasurer, the collector of customs, the surveyor general, and the commissioner of police. The government, however, mowed that there should be but one chamber, a part of which was to consist of mem bers nominated by the crown, and the rest to be representatives of the people. But it may be said that if it was the desire of the colonies that there should be two chambers, it would not be proper for that house to entertain a bill which contained a provision for a single chamb. r. It was said that the colonies wished to have a constitution far more aristocratic than he proposed; they wanted to have a House of Lords ; but, though that was the opinion of the legislative council, yet it was not the general opinion of the people of South Australia. So far as they had been informed, • large public meeting was held of the iehabitants, at which the opinion of the legislative council was altogether repudiated, and the opinion ;of the colony was declared to be in favour of • legislative council. The deepatch which the hon. member who had just sat down quoted went so far as to show that the legislative council, composed of members nominated by the crown, did not like to give up their authority, and represented such to be the wish of the people. That, so doubt, was a natural feeling on the part of those in power: but it could not be inferred on that aecoutd this the colonies were in favour of it. It may with great propriety be argued in committee that if the governor was in favour of two chamber", it would have ire duo weight attached to it; but, too far as the wish of the people of the colonies was concerned, there was nothing to alter the opinion which he had stated on a former occasion. Mr.A DDERLEY mild that the oble lord must all , ve that the real question before the hous e was whether it would be of advantage to their colonies to have two chambers ,or one. The noble lord was only dealing with the surface of the sub jec• , when he merely thought that it was • question as to the differtnee between the wishes of the couacil and those of the people. It was the opinion of gentlemen on both sides of the hoses that there should be two chambers. It was thought that In the eoloales there should be threes independent states The noble lard seemed to be dealing with the details of the meatier. It was impossible to get at what were the real wishes at the gelellfiee; no matter by what means they tried te t aseit i =erhatiser it was by their governors, or through they wen not to be listened to. He should ' like to know who were to be listened to then ? The noble lord said that • large meeting was bold In Australia, at whisk the foaling of this colony was expressed. That information was, however, withheld from them. He then wished to ask the noble lord whether it was free laienhation wbieh they had not received, or ham talsrulatton whisk they had received. I. short, whatever line they took, whatever argument they need, they were met by some sayseerious °hawks, some new ' excuse ea the part of the government. Where were the mailman which a proper judgment might be formed ? It we urged by the government that if New South Wales was indittreat, it would he hard to sacrifice the other three Amerellast colonies for the peke of that oae. In that he agreed, but all they knew on the subject was. that the colony had been dreadfully alarmed by the sort of monstrous caricature of the British constitution which had been sent to them *Rev having been refused by New Zealand, and they said, "Leave us our existing constitution for the present until you have had time to reconsider, and when you do re consider, be so good as to consult us before you daide " That was the whole information they rimmed as to the feelings of the colonists with respect to their constitution. Besides the proposal then thrown out by the Colonial-office was for a tripartite constitution, and he could not find that the population of New South Wales had so diminished since that time, as to render such a constitution impossiVe. The next information they received was, that New South Wales baying heard of the constitution of last year, had expressed the utmost gratitude for it. But he thought Sir W. Deal son's conjecture on that subj ct was right, and that the people alarmed at what had been previously offered, and glad to get any sort of constitution instead, very naturally expressed their gratitude that some deference to their wishes bad been evinced in giving them any other kind of °rani ration. The next piece of information they had to consider was rather a strong ono. In the middle of the last debate the government said that although; delay might be fatal to the interests ache colony, still that, as the house was not lo possession of sufficient information, they would make up their minds to a considerable delay, in order to lay sufficient information before the house. But when this fresh informa tion came, it was nothing but a collection of *old despatches. eka yet no news had arrived from New South Waite, but they had received some from Van Diemen'. Land and 8 'lath Australia, and they had folly borne out his expectations. (Hear, hear.) So that it seemed that if any one wanted to know the feelings of the colonies, they had better not refer to the office in Down ing street, but rather to Intik, like the whimsical writer lately alluded to by the noble lord, for some new Downing street, filled with sa , n better acquainted with the subject. But let them put out of sight the opinion of the governor, although he felt convinced that Sir W. Denison would de cline to carry out the government constitution. Arid it would not be the first time that government had had a con. situtioa returned to them from a colony. This was, in fact, only the last of a long catalogue of failures, and seemed as it Lord Grey, having failed in every previous plan, el...er mined to prepare a sort of omnibus constitution, combining all previous faults, and intended to break down all the colonies at once. (Cheers.) But let them put all those matters aside, and consider that there were two rival propo sitions before he house, namely, one fora chamber with one third nominated members, and the other two for chambers apiroximating as nearly as possible to the pen. ciples of the British constitution. He trusted that both propositions would be considered fairly on Veit. merits. It had been urged that the convict system had utterly incapacitated Van Diemen's Land from receiving free institution.. He trusted that so ungen an argument would not weigh with the house in co. sidering the emotion The whole question was between a tingle and double chamber. Some gentlemen might think that a mere secondary question, but they were greatly mistaken— although even the noble lord at the head of the government seemed to fall into that error. It seemed to him (Mr Ad derley ) that that point involved the whole question betwe. n the central and municip•l. principles in colonial government. The central system was that in which the mother country retained in its own hands the power of dealing with local, requirements, imitating, in fact, the centralisation or France; the municipal was that in which the colonists were allowed to manage all their local ethers. The main centre of one was the Colonial-office, with its patronage, its bribes, and its veto, with all its no ow of useless despatch..., nine tenths of which were only waste paper, and all its preference of a sort of deettante leghlation. The main point of the other was local colonial government, without any control or interference from the office in Downing-street. The slob boleth between the two was neither more nor less than this questi in of a single or double chamber. . He must say he felt surprised that the government which twenty years ago had convulsed the country rather than let the nominee of a single peer act in the House of Commons, should now preps° a legislative assembly in which 33 per cent. of the members should be nomi nees of the crown. (Hear, hear.) On the other hand, the hon. baronet the member for Southwark proposed a constitution, assimilating as nearly as pos•ible to that en joyed by England, complete in all its parte, fit for immediate use, or if requiring alteration its any part containing within itself ample powers for such purpose. He (Mr. Adderley) Impel and trusted that constitu.ion would receive the sane tion of the house, as he feared that the adoption of the government plan would lead to the worst possible re• salts (Hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL— I shoulel not have risen to address the house at this time, if it were not, that the gentleman who has just spoken questioned the information furnished by government, and termed it cep -cryphal, exulting at the same time very much in the favouring breezes that had wafted over opinions corti•matory of his opposition to the clause b fore the house. Why the hon. member has had no favourable 1 ; breezes in favour of his opinions, but there have b.cn favour iog breez s which have brought another description of intelli• Renee. I must add, that it has not come through the Colonial office, that c intaminated and suspicions source, but from a quarter beyoni suepici en—l mean the Jerusalem Coffee-house. (Laughter.) I trust that intimation wed convince the hon. member and the house, that governme, t his had nothing to de wilt its pr. paratlon. (Hear, hear.) Those hon. members wbo had read Sir H. Young's dis patches will remember that he stated thin was to be a public meeting at Adelaide on the following Friday, of widst he would furnish an account in a subsequent despatch. That despatch his not arrived, but the newspapers have ; and here is one which states that a meeting was held at Adelaide to consider the new constitution, which was esteemed so important that all the shops were shut and business was wholly suspended. (The noble lord proceeded to read an account of the meeting from an Adelaide newspaper, of which the following is the substance. A Mr. Fisher moved the first resolution, prefacing it by a speech in which he said that one chamber was quite sufficient for that colony at present, and they wanted no chamber composed of nominees fur life. He thought it not possible that her Majesty would sanction any proposition of such a nature, even if her miais• ten should think a second chamber necessary.) The noble lord proceeded. I will now read the resolution proposed by Mr. Fisher, and which certainly forms rather a strong contrutto the violent invective in which he has indulged. It certainly does some violence to my modesty to read it—(a laugh)—but I must, to convince the house of the opinion of the colony. (The noble lord read the resolution which stated that the government bill was adapted to the wants of South Australia in most of its essential pruvi ' signs which gave them representative government with such extensive powers) (Hear, hear.) la conclusion it thanked Lord Grey, Mr. Hawes, Lord Jelin Russell, and Mr. Labou there, and all members of the House of Commons who had satiated ie. preparing the bill. (The r. ding of this resolution was received with much cheering and laughter by the house.) Now that resolution was carried at a great public meeting. With regard to a s.coed chamber, appointed by the governor of the colony, as nominees of the government, whether for a period of years or for life, though that "night be the only result to which the house could come were the principle of a second chamber affirmed, that is not the proposition of the hon. baronet, and if carried into effect it would not give satisfaction to the colonists. I think if, instead of having a second chamber, composed in part of nominees of the Crown, in the proportion of one-third of the whole body, where the opinions of the representatives might be freely adduced, and enabled completely to overwhelm the opinions of the nominees of the crown—if, instead of that eight or nine persons ehould sit in a separate chamber, having power to control altogether and put an absolute veto on all the legislative measures of the representative assem bly—l believe the introduction of such a measure would cause great dissatisfaction in the colony. (Hear, hear.) That is, therefore, a proposition which I am not able to en tertain. (Cheers.) Then we have the proposition of the hon. baronet the member for Southwark, and my objection to that is of a different nature. My objections are that wear* not now in a position to came to any perfect or satisfactory solution of the question —we have not, as I think, received from New South Wales, South Aust ralia, or Van Diemen's Laud, or any of them colonies, that information which is necessary to enable us to come to such a solution of that question. (Hear, hear.) It may be that then . would be no difficulty in finding amongst those ' persons who are qualified for the duty, sad who are willing hi devote their time to the business of legislation, a sufficient number to form two chambers—or it may fur t h b ,s e i that n t purpose— b ut e t h aw e r e w e e o n ow l f d haei n tlh o ce t l be ofirro f n o .o u ti z o d ni aoonwillcientt h I am t na , o t ut o mp r b i e ris k r be composed and what shall be the qualification ?—whether saa Ss aid po ti ve p eh u ad l in s ec r beil chamber,ridecis i on. ilcahtthheihqalnueleasttaipcotlnactaseheinsof we e ise e hch s a , vec h e o kan w e ls nl ec it tth, to d° it is to be fleeted by the some electors as elect the lower chamber or by a different constituency ? (Hear, hear.) The honourable gentleman who last spoke told us that he proposed a constitution for these colonies modelled on the British constitution ,• but one of the provisions of the constitution proposal by the host. biretta (Sir W. Moles- worth) was that if two•thirds of the two chambers sl.ould agree in requiring the removal of the governor, that then he should be removed. This was said to be a part of the constitution of Rolland, but I confess I do not know any thing analogous to it in the British constitution, nor think any one ever heard that it was a principle of that con stitution that the sovereign could be removed by such a vote of the two Houses of Lords and Commons. (" hear," and a laugh.) On looking at the whole of the mat ter, I think that with regard to the nominee chamber it would be utterly inapplicable to the colonies, and, if we were to make that alteration in the bill it would be received with surprise by the colonists, and I am persuaded they would speedily ask for ice repeal, therefore, as it appear, to me, we had hatter nut adopt it. (Hear, bear.) Auil, again, with regard to the second proposition, and which I alms, taken in the abstract, is the beet--that of the boo. member for Southwark—l do not think we are iu the N. session of the information necomary to enable us to cu, upon the details of such a aseasurs. I ask the enraccoltss not to be led away by the boo. gentleman who spoke Isst sadthuppcse that we are &sieges opt rosin act to the colon'ists'; on the contrary, this measure is the introduction, for th; first time, to those colonise of the representative element, We are giving them a power to legislate for thereset ese which they never had bean, end which acts of what:iv-- have prevented their having, and in introducing that went we ere laying the foundation of a free comity under which I hope they may long flourish. (Hear Mr. ANSTEY denounced the amendment as impracil e , hie, inasmuch as there were no elements in the colony fro , which to construct an upper house analogous to our 'sinus Lords, and contended that, as far as we had any knor of the feeling of the colonists on the suhji was adverse to such a proposition. He contended the course hitherto taken had 'seen unfair, and that feet was to mislead the committee, because several obje bad been raised which did not apply to the bill, and the question which ought now to form the subject-matter c mission had been altegether kept (mot signt. (Hear., Mr. AGLIONBY said, that if there were any agen t the colony in the house he should be delighted to re, instruction frets them on this most important subject. complaint was, that hon. members were almost cal misinformed upon it, and that it was most difficult tt derstand certain portions of the applicability of the was He had paid great attention to the debates, in crder what appears(' to be most consonant to the feelings o colony, but he confessed that he still felt himself very I in the dark. He believed that no one, except those could fish in the waters of Downing. P ,re le Jerusalem Coffee-house, could understand it. Ile hesitation, however, instating his belief that a secant bee was desirable for the constitution of the colony; would leave it to the colonists to give effect to that propositions in such a time and in ouch a manner might think most fitting. (Hear.) In the course of debate it was proposed that the second chamber consist of the nominees of the crown, to be apt during pleasure. To that he objected. He believe five different modes of composing the second chew! been proposed. Nominees for life was one of modes. Another plan was, that they should be hereto another, that they should be elected ; and another the qualification should be a property one, enabling a to have tpao fade a seat in the upper house, and to In seat whenever he ceased to hold the property. Hi opiaion in favour of the double chamoer had bLel much confirmed by an able pamphlet, written by a man of the her, which had lately :issued from the. The hon. member concluded by recommending i. .tr-sagest possible way an upper chamber to Australia, the extension of some representative government ' Z eland, (Haar ) Mr. t t n G ul l! b speechl: o t f h t o h u e g h n t ob t l h e e r l s or w d u ( j we r R v l i ttle uesel l ;li e motion of the hon, baronet the inembe r for S.ue What had the noble lord consented to 1 lie had es to state his opinion that two chambers were better the and that an elective upper chamber was bitter than nee one. It was agreed, then, that two else ive cl were the best; and the question was, should two chambers be allowed the colonists of isustralia bear.) The noble earl at the head cf the had admitted that he did not know mot the people of Australia to say tow be form the second chamber. It was acknowledge • nominee upper chamber was an exceed:• 1. chieimus thing, and there was no doubt that ci chamber, nominated by the crown, was the nu chievous thing that could possibly be. If the cold , the head of the colonies was ignorant of the scat people of Australia, what was the duty of the house a case? ReccAleet At.stralia was a large area. TI shoot to be, its all human pre bability, large, LUI great communities in that part of the world. It e for the few colonists who were there decide neon what 1 Upon the future of what he would call the imperial cold Great Britain. (Hear, hear.) Were we to give' easiest of a great question, an imperial question, te thousand colonists ? (Hoar, hear.) Why, if ever tit an imperial question, it was that et ourgreatcolosiel (Cheers.) What, then, was toe bee: rule to adopt large colonial empire about to tin in Aimee:is ? We mother country, sent out portions of our people, sell s, the flag. power, pad protection of England. Oulu( selves in those distant pars of the world. What he was to unite them to us in the relation of afl.e colonists. (Hear, hear ) He did not want to s them. (Hear, hear.) He acknowledged that at ooi wanted to have England stretching out her arms are, portions of the globe, and he wanted that every p empire so stretching out should be prnserncd by tt principles which distinguished her et home. (Cale, do this, we must make them part Cl our empire. 4C were •e to make them part of our empire? Not by them slave subjects, but by making them freemen si united to us ia affection, and governing their awe cerr.s by their own local laws. (Hear, hen. liev.d the noble lord was desirous of e.s out that rule and establishing that principle. he (Mr. Roebuck) thought +he noble lord made a great mistake, and that his mistake bad b eve ryone f his proceedings with reference to colonies. He would ask the noble lord, in the most I) converse, to deal with this subject as he (Mr. lisehucl wished to deal with it. Now, whit did he want to di wanted to unite distant colonies to this empire. Hs members not experience of the beat means of so dolt ehouldi they be cramped and confined by asking w favourable opinions had appeared in unstamped newt at the Jerusalem C. tfee•house, or ia authorised des; at Downing street Was not this a pitiful v dealing with tee subject? (lieu, hear.l t, )1111 EC get the large experience of age* past—the experienc tram our own extensive empire ? Should they now direful series of events which must eventually cad ration ? They had done ea hitherto, with regard Ameriets colonies ; and, therefore, he joked the if we had not such experience as should gull, :is matter f—so that we need rot apply to a few c tither in Can Diemen's Land or Sou:h A. to assist us in dealing with our great empire as it should be dealt with. (Hear, Hs was not going to sacrifice those colonies 'eau contained only a few thousand colonists, because. number increased, so would their influence, sac: would be able in all cases to regulate their a concerns. Having ieviewsd the several jeovos had beta placed before the house, the first btu chamber, and the second and third for bees, and called attention to the lever; "The Federalist," which he deseribsd remarkable series of state papers on record, the h so. :it: said he did Rot complain of the noble lord at the .;,, al did not know how to direct the fortunes of a g.e g h o a v d er a n u m iniid ent e ; a ba g t u lle : s ot C all ) former iiai.° fs g C o e v o e r En o lEl ft e h n e t s empire. The government of England bat csscr colony—it was the people. They it wu—ro: witz port, but in spite of the government and Dose:re who had made our colonies; let us not, the rec. re. b government, and then leave them to prove they ir blood with ourselves. power of Englishmen to g ',eta t, i fe g t aubs‘)luaty the e wn for their guidance the (rest Pr.• Mr. lI•CULLAGH Tasted how the glorious •..> of this country had grown no by slow degute,t.....r. selves to the recessives of the times, and tha5a.,, , •.. , deur and stability. He desired to see a Ilk? pr , 1.• on in the cAonies, whose liberty would he by the development then the arbitrary enact/Lc: representative system. It was natural and rva-en. great institutions such as those contemplate: e: •. demo a course of probation. To be persamat tb y be gradually developed snd thoroughly itcdtrsto...t community amongst whom tht y wen , est iblao.cd. liamcnt dictated to colonists upon what w.re be their wants, is all probability they is)sa ran advice come back upon them. and dad : :WO listed and discomfited. The hon. anal lit put concluded by expressing his approval of :bv ' After a few words from Mr. Hoist cti. Lira J. MANN ii.RS approved of the str , n.l eh ‘315, possible atm to an hereditary asrenal•ly. th0.,...1: filing to offer to the emigrants who I,:t it the prospect of enjoying not only the p but the refinements, the courtraie., and t'e 1' they saw at home. An infusion of the arifoitatic was murk to be desired in the colJulet hle. KEOOII founded upon the principle; of constitution the argument that it wee mire ii) with the inherent rights of the Bri:ish sudj.ct t • the colonists a legislative system which erey a..• ., at their own pleasure, than to trans.fit theist a c more liberal in appearance but more grid and une. In practise. lie, therefore, preferred th.• measure mimetic to the amendment of Sr W. M te•wort,f. Mr. DISRAELI said he understood tit-, h lii•C committee on the dth clause of the bill, and eppre that the whole question to be decided wee wheal, should be one or two chambers. Supposing the to decide in favour of having a second ehauCoer, the- elf whether thee chamber should be nomt.•ative, heredtt elective was distinct from that betere the how. quite right that the question should be divested of ;hi siderationt, fur it was in itself sufficiently grave. hear.) lie hardly knew one more difficult to de, with respect to which the respousibiltty of a vote .h, more sensibly felt. The question wee, however, not the house. It was not (our years SRO since ttet change of government, one of the principles on ).! government which then acceded to ether ass toutulc that of colonial reform. Ou a question so t attest in the solution as that cf pramline politieal ins.v.uti distant colonies, they naturally looked to the eaistine mint to be their guides, philosopLen, acul (Laughter.) The government had not beak lone ii be(ose it favoured the house with au tuttatatt.•a policy with respect to the guts:ion uu.ler cuts..)' A emstdution for a distant colony cubliguous t• whom late wee under discussion tiled, earthiest. Ina pr to the house, and from this great project •tt a Bolo: f intim it appeared that three) can add a 1..11 age• •:•c Mist thought there should be two chambee., Some time after the government, havis.g an impertinent, produced a cm:WWl:ton ter ono tits under consideration, which also ieolu.l. ' (Rear, hear.) So far the governincut. •••• what brief , mem, declared their spin. tut . n ot of the double chamber. But 11 great eh..u[• The two projects of the government wet.• oat •• both were rejected by those (or whom ti,. y • • and the government then adopted grunt., 15 • •• limed, almost unprecedented iu rereatt 1,111,1 out n Suddenly there was a delegation of the dun • • tart' of State for the Colonial to a contini.tc, wi council. Considering the great abidti • .•t the government, and the reputation , ; t: , • vended over the coloniee, isms hotel It.' ~„_ ~_. speec ' d _t !Rum to d ec id e a re' oninaittee i ota' I ta,.. 4 tha t :Monists': oVt! 1, for the 1,0 element, for tralely*, the trlianalat coo' that ele. „ y hti nitatiot, t hou r ) ie!jr the delei tret t m e vi 'louse of Dor tionledge ca p' ibjeet, it prof ed th at last at its ob. ( 01 bjections t aw the ra k i, root er of die. emu ar.) igeata foe coo' receive cf rct. Ili Chit t ebony alt to Oa- visa que[tion. Of t der to d, Can gs of the cast' cry moth 13rd nose who the' r at the was hl 1 no el cram. a g o acd he self abstract see !I' as they to el it the lut fille T should the :wanted err :vat that ores Sher had who of these sec reOitary ; tote her, that wee tit a party Chal lose the roes His own the ten very the a gentle- and he press. sob t in the tine alia,!snd sue to New Seel lifferene• par, and the the athwart. par] :tomtit/4 ad than one, wbe n a antni. favt chambers lira o elective 001 (Hear, con colonies of r tough of ym was to we red that the d.y mu colt a upper soil a: ilia• son: earl at Be ate of the dill c in such geT fhere was L matrons, pos t was not tans now to 3 destinies the oilier of tell I: the de. We to a few the there was See cad for that Lae atthe Teti unite met Ted them. hall le desired app I..ctionate whi &clarets /141 ;.ce. lie deb ier all the wol ,on of her lab the great the ere.) To of !no how he y moms; spa subjects, wa coo. sett lie he. xis Carrying as , • But the aid had the infected pie to those bpi t friead:y To ick) now wal dos He owl lad hoc. wht dog, and whether ro' wspapers mat watch. to t way of me cot they tPn Leg the !,..rtn a belt to reps. en I d to the tool e7lO es ir. 7t4 tom c e:t.tc:.ta Via e*.e-traita• and ice: role . Lir t thei ,We !t.ey the: as :',.[ wAi they we : the govi :as t c ' =Y.'. and host • .t the Midi tests • ::ell app/ : beer :::..1e a WWI to and state tile e. the *.t.e sat co la, past nits uth:ot• of A POT • 'l: . 'ne.l Etta • 0 ...urol VLSI tt• a: a beam t ttt, :cat isnot J.l - -a• yeer.: seem imp: 1: rue dela] glued t) MI s, the.; only hum:- hour utlemin of rh whirl the b ,h:r as • The 1: it wise 'Peet v, to d, itutt..cs. enlit •U7O Site. L -1,01.1a . forgo tbiza2y ut lact tsa r oiti l ao"yet ht tier:o, B l _ 44 uuy. t ; State It • [ e eibgir bcoe C. *, bet bi ,ilea. rup,4 •, Edw. lustiot ,t t• wo chirp ac at , s ' Of co ebt.th •,, adopt ltd N." Port, it, h. Aim:. rap e , one fr it • •, hoc, . e report o •J 1:42 1. rat. 5 . Ile int to it." , • Men ttt• watt it 1,. the• It u 0 op boa. t could • To Alt 1 0 th • • ~c ona • th; ir Tb. l the Ills this , • the si s 11414 °P•Zlie