The Express. — London, England, 1850-05-01 00:00:00

r L IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS —TatsaaV, APRIL SO. TM Mule mgt at he teelosiL L LANODLUI Yt Spooket. PROCESS AND PRACTICE (IRELAND) BILL. The Earl of CARLISLE moved the mead resales of thie Lied MONTEAGLE approved of the MU, sad Wreath Inland was math indebted to the exert:loss of the English IleliclosaGearrth He bored loose ties would be gives before ths bill west lam 'mistime, beaus it ssatsthed prism shish would empire thasideratioa. Attu a few wards hi. the Marque at Nrsmit•ASS, tbs bill was road a essond Ilse. awl IMO Millankitt•• fizaal few Moeda, ens WEST INDIA APPEALS BILL. On the main of Berl Garr this bill wear through sow millet, sad was trammed sorbs hate. TITLES OF RELIGIOUS CONGREGATIONS (SCOTLAND) BILL. Oa the modes of the Henske of Basanithaans We bill was read a third time and posed. IRISH LOANS. The Marquis of WESTMEATH then earned for espies M all comsassicetioes made in sadism the wroth of February, Is4o, t , the Board of Week' in Ireland or to the Irish go. Ilerlhatilt, by the tharqsb of Westmeath, Sir IGata ga Chapala" Bart., is say other leaded pesprithers in t o . barony of Delwin sad smutty of Wastmasti, rotative to the public works eaffilli on is that tonality, trader what Is termed Mr. Imbousbers's latter, and the replies thereto, es well as all teahouse stherapthylag the ease. The noble marquis colorised albs trestmest the landed pro proton color ised so hod resolved, sad to Aoudad that the re payment of the laws while had bon made ti them shoed be t s coded ever a period of forty yews, as had been the nee with terereme to barmier, salsas, and electoral dis tricts. The M mph of LANSDOWNE said that the persons who bad received** advisees bad hid indabeace ex tended tritium Mud bossdntatlpulsfilthat each advances Wrath be repaid in tea 'tan, bat last year the period wee therossed to twenty-two years. He hod no, oh) , etioa to the productions( A. pawn 'savor for, mbialt would furnish complete answer to the moths mammies nalflear, bet he soma/ oat bad est say hops that the Cate for the repayment of miasma's nodose theividsals tumid he emended In yoad the puled Y proeut find. After a low wool' from the tharqab of Wsrtes.sys aid the Earl of Movoroasontt. the mums were enteral. PIRATES (HEAD MONEY) REPEAL BILL. The report of the asseadmate to this bill was presented sad *geoid to. Their lordships thou adjourned at a quarter.peet aim. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—TresDAY, AP/UL 30. The SPILI cast leak elm Asir at 4 °Week. PRIVATE BUSINESS. —.. 811COND RIADIXO —Manchester Bowline Bill. LONDON (CITY) IMPROVEMENTS BILL. Sir It H. INGLIS moved that the petition of Tames Marsh N.l•on, which was deposited in the private MU oaks upon the 29:h day of April against the Loudest (City) Im provements Bill, be referred to committee on the bill, end that the petitioner may be heard before the said com mittee, rersuast to the prayer of hie peelitem. Mr. W. FATTEN said that notto cou►d be more ob jectionable then to allow to be referred to the committee a petition which was p tad eight weeks beyond the time glowed by the house. After a few words front Mr. FORSTER and Sir .1. Druz, Sir R. H. INGLIS withdrew Pia motion fcr the purpose of sautituttne another, to the effect that the petition be mo tored to the standing orders committee. PL'BLIC BUSINESS. PETITIONS PRESENTED. Curacy' R AWE:. -• IE --- 147ilinCiON, from the die.enten in Hullos., against church noes. Basts.s.st Hnavitus —By Sir J. DUKE, from Wapping, signed by 41 clergymen and 700 inhabitants, praying for monsurse for the beneat of this elms of persons. COAL MINES.—By Mr. HUME, irons 10,000 practical workmen in Northumberland and Durham, complauting of the dangers to which they were exposed in working the mints arising from Bn-damp, calliag the attention of the house to the large number who lost their lives by explosions throw/boat England in 1549, annonattag to 700 individuals, and prays .g that the government wont t send down inspectors to these mines to try and remove them dangers. PROTECTION TO AORICCLT CAI —By Mr. CAYLEY, from Yorkshire, coraplaiainer of the evils arising tram free trade, and preying for a more to the system of protection. EMIGRATION OF PAUPER GIRLS. ?dr. MILES gave notice that on the 28th of May he would move a resolution to the eff.ct, that it was expedient that the Romania*, with the assistance and co-operation of the boards of guardians, should tyke immediate steps to forward the emiglatios to Australia of orphan girls who were the iambus of workhouses. SUNDAY LABOUR IN THE POST-OFFICE. Lord ASHLEY pee notice that it was his intention on that by Isvlssight as acne a resolution to the effect, that there rhea& bus Maw carried min the Pat-ofies on the Sabbath day. SLATE TRADE. Sir J. PAXINOTON gars notice that on thehon. baronet the ineuther tor South Ewe: (Sir E. Buxton) bringing for. surd tus resolution hr would more an addition to it. STEAK NAVY. ANDERSONWiiitedtoini a question, of which he had given ru.tice, to the right hon. Nooses the First Lord of the Admiralty. la the *arty put of last session a committee was appointed to inquire into the practicability of providing a reserve steam nary, through the medium of the commer cial steam emu!' of the country ; and after long considera tion the committee came to the resolution that such a course was not only desirable but practicable. Twelve months had elapsed, and yet nothing had boss done to carry oat the recommendation of the committee. He was not, he thought, pinioning is asking the right hos. gentleman what means had bees adopted to effect arrangements with the owners of meressatile steam vessels to render such vessels promptly available fee the national defence in case of need, in pur suance of the report of the select committee of last session cm steam na. Sir F. BA KING said that in order to carry into effect the arrangement contemplated by the committee, it would be necessary for him to iatroduce a measure into parliament to force merchant seamen engaged la the commercial steam navy to enrol themselves, so me to render them liable to be called upon to serve in her Majemy's steam navy, or take a vote of mosey to secure their voluntary services in time of need; and he certaialy . was Lot prepared to adopt either alternative, at lout during the rreeent seesion. LIGHTHOUSES ON THE SOUTH COAST OF IRELAND. _ _ Viscount BERNARI;risie7ItO ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether bM attention had been called to t►e numerous wrecks which have ocearred ra the south-western coast of Ireland &arias the last few perm, and whether any mope were about to be taken to erect lighthouse. oa t►e Ball Rock, the Forge Rwk, and the Gulley Head, as re commended by the leas Ceptais Wolfe, in a letter dated March 10, 1848 (S.end Report, Tival Harboars Con- Relation), Sir F. BARING said that the matter referred to was leader the costrel of the Irish government, and he had Nude jogai'', for the purpose of gouts, information on the sagest, sad found that t►e Ballast Board had erected three lighthouses on the southern west The means of tie board wore vet, limited, and fur the present they could oat under take to erect more. MEMBERS' OATHS. Kr. WOOD asked the hint Lard of the Treasury whe ther it was the intention of her Majesty's government to propose any mums during the present session with refer nue to the oaths now adminiatered to members on taking their nets In this house ? rd J. RUSSELL said that it wu the intention of her Majesty's government to introduce • measure on that sub• jut this waken, aa anon as the state of public business ad. milted of it. He would take the lint opportunity of Meting to the house what this precise nature of the measure would be. EVICTIONS IN GALWAY. In answer Is Mr. P. Scan's, had received ne official informatics' with respect to the amber of 'victim's that bad taken place in Galway. He maw that the huh newspapers which diseumwd the metier were very ouch at variance u to the event of the eviricias, sad as to the permits who carried theme into eff.ct. Without this iabruatioa, it would be impossible ter him to props' a questioo to the lee officers of the crow., and iudeed he thought it would be eaceifdingly difficult for them, to that case, to give aay opiates upiis the pest. NAVY ESTIMATES. Col. CRATTERTON wishetTto put a question, of which be bad given aotioe, to tem Firet Lord of the Admiralty. f3wriag the sass of 538.&42. charged in the navy estimates for the year 1849-50, !seder the bead of " Victuals for Seamen and Marisa," what partials of that sum had been paid, or now remiss due, to basses in England , Ireland, and foreign houses in 114 provisirm trade, for the supply of beef and pork for her Majesty's navy, S.r 1 , . BARING said that he would be most happy to supply the returns relating to this subject; but be c•uld not see the obj.ct of the hon. and gallant colonel from the way in which hie question was prepared. _ DUTY ON CORN. - - - In reply to Kr. Isixwuzoiaz, Mr LABOUCIIBRE vindicated the accuracy of the Board of Trade re urns rata ive t t the jetports of cars, which that hon. member had imapagnad, and explained that the alleged error in thaw Maras was in reality caw.ed by his owe con. fiision of the Oates sod tatics iaeladed in thew rvturna. IhNECURES IN THK ARC EIDIOCHSE OF CAN IIIKBURY. and Robert Moan who le sew is promeelea, is als• pre bend of Canteens; Cathedral, nen! elllastelhispion sal Hasten, with ether appolatments, maideg in all as lases of 14,9631. • year. =d_ 42 . 1 . 6ffser. beite.") That gentleman, with all .sh of billies of Casterbery, tow edies of the Prerogative Court. Darialltio dos. eat Dr. Sutton held the see el thaterlswei the sighs' nesdiiii died, and Dr. Sutton, seeding his pews, sendsated present Viscount Canterbury, his in thee a child of tea years of ego. (Hear, hes.) TM areh fidels, ilhop died Is 1828, and Dr. Howley was appointed to tie so. Some year. after, in 1846 et thereabouts, the Ist* Mr. J. Moore, the then registrar of the court, died, sad Dr. Howley had the power Selling up the vacancy in reversion. lam Wormed, sad the noble lord will correct me if I as wrong, that that meet esellent sad venerated prelate amok • esarousktation to ' government to the effect that he Gould Rot, fa the eassieur tioes discharge of his daty, all tip the spun Owen. (Clbeers.) And I think it le oily due to the late Dr. Howley to soy that I believe it wee sot the only istases la which he lersrent this sort of patronage. (Hear, hear.) Bet, sir, fa the yoke 18411,1whea Dr. Howley died, leaving the nosey eldll walled, Dr. Sumner was emulated to the see of Center. busy. He food the vacancy not filled up, and, as lam in terned, himself filled it up. The question which I sow beg lease to ask the goblet lord is whether such is the feet, and whether the soot reverend prelate Ins filled up the blank with the same of hie own sou, or with that of the Bishop of Wischeetee's son; and it will be • satisfaction to know if the schist lord sea inform the loose of the age of the gen dews. I beg also to put masher question arising out of, and eoserqueiat as the question I have put. In consequence of these 'filen la the ecclesiastical wart being filled up and semisoft' to, is reversion by boys and children of almost tender age, the ecclesiastic .1 commiononen, in their re port, reconseaded that no such appintment should thereafter be made, and I believe that, in conse quence of that recommeadation of the ecclesiastical commissioners, • bill was brought in and passed into • law the 10 & 11 Viet , c. 93, providing that all apoointoes.. made Star the pining of that set in 1847 should be subject to the control and revision of patli im-nt. It is very clear that the present archbishop with archiepiscopal forethought made the appointment in the hope that parliament would not interfere. I wish to ask whether it is the intention of the noble lord to introduce any measure for the purpose of revising thee. appointee/on and whether we may hope, if such bill is introduced, it w ill include than persons net in areal ponession of offices, sad consequently not haying vested rights in this peculiar sort of patronage ? (Loud cries of t. Hear. ties.") Lord J. RUSSELL—Since the hon. baronet gave me nobs of this question yesterday I have obtained information on stint to which he refers. The office in question is that of registrar of the Prerogative Court of Canterbury, and I find that, as stated by the hon. baronet, Mr. MOW* was appointed by Archbishop Moore, and that the present Lord Canterbury was appointed by Dr. Manners Sutton to hold the Olio s in rereenion. Mr. More now holds the office, and Lord Canterbury is next in reversion. It appears, as the boo. baronet has stated, that the lets Dr. Howley did not fill up the reversion which fell vacant during his occu pation of the see of Canterbury. (lieu, hear.) I cannot say whether or not ho made any communication to govern ment on the subject, but I remember perfectly well his sta.ing to me in conversation that there was an office to which he could appoint, but to which he had not made any appointment. He did not state to me the nature of the office ; it might be this or some other, bens. I believe there was more than one offitte to which he had power to appoint, and to which he did not appoint. (Hoar, hear.) It appears likewise that this se cond reversionaty appointment to the office has been gives since the present Archbishop entered into the see, to Mr. Sumner, the Archbishop's on, • young man now studying in the Temple. (" Hem," and • laugh) Theo are the farts. With respect to the law a bill was introduc d in 1847, which bill paned into a law, which enacts that any person appointed after the passing o f that act to the office of judge, registrar, or other office in the ecclesiastical court shall old his office su"ject to such regulations as may be made by parliament, nor shall any such person claim or be entitled to compensation in as his office be abolished by act of parliament. (Cann.) The case of this office is at present undergoing inquiry by • select committee of this house ; and it appean to me that it is one of those offices which, when parliament shall deal with the subject, meet either be abolished or altered, and the salines gives to thaw who efficiently perform the duties ; so that the enormous amount of emolument referred to by the hon. baronet must be taken away, and, by the clause to which I have alluded, the gentleman who wee appointed • yesr or two ago will have no claim fir compensation. (Loud clarets.) The bill wee introduced in 1847, and it effectually i precludes any claim for compensation for appointments made since. (Hem, hear.) Sir B. HALL—I beg to state that on Thursday next I shall move for • return of all persons appointed or nomi nated in reversion to ecclesiastical offices in Eogland end Wales, stating the nature of the office, appointment or rever sion, the age of the person or p. rsons appointed at the time of nomination, and whether such person performed the duty or was or was not in holy orders ; the name of the psnon making the appointment, together with the nature and emoluments of the office. (firs, bear.) BISHOP OF GLOUCESTER. Mr. HORSMAN said that on Thursday next he would put a question to the noble lord something similar to that which had just bean answered. In the sewion before last an srrar,gement was made to suably the Bi , hop of Gloucester's intense in the estates of Houghton. It came into his pos session Indus. his predecessor had not filled up the two lives. The bishop haying only one lice the eceksiastical commissioners felt a moral obligation to leave the other two unuominated. The question he would ask was, in what light the commissioners would stand if the successor to that bishop would not fill up the thee* lives? GRANT FOR DRAINAGE. Mr. DISRAELI asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when the house might expect to ewe introduced the govern ment measure for making extensive grants fur the purpo.es of drainage The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had Ivan directions for drawing the bill, but various questions bad arisen, end communications had to be entered into with Mioll pnons, which had created considerable delay. He expected, however, to lay the measure on the table in the coune of a few day.. OFFICIAL SALARIES. Mr. HENLEY said it would be in the recollection of the house that about two Tsars ago the present river's meat thought it right, coosidering the situation of the country, to refer srations great brsnchrs of the public expen diture to a committee of that house. He had had the tumour of serviag ow one of those committees, which was appointed to revisit the miscellaneous estimates. Now that committee, in its revel, same to the ft Itowieg resolution—" Your com mittee have not recommended any reduction of public sa laries in these estimates, a., after some consideration, discus sion, and divisioa of opinion, they thought that such reduc tion should form part of • general revision of all ulari. s suitable to the altered circumstances, expenses , and condition of the country. In course of delib eration they also thought it advisable to frame • more uniform rate of wages in every department." lie did not find that in that valuable report on the expenditure of the navy, the committee had expressed any opinion on the amount of salary paid to the very large civil establishments connected with that branch of the ser vice. They seemed to have directed their attentiin wholly to the amount of service to be performed, and to have en. tirely overlooked the question of salary. This t rotten him down to what had taken place the other day, when the noble lord then on the part of the government brought for ward • motion referring certain limited branches of the public service to a select c,mmittee of that house. With what view the noble lord referred these branches the noble lord did not state, whether a reduction or increase was WM. easy, but he (Mr. Henley) could hardly suppose that the noble lord would have brought forward the subject at all except with • view to reduction. However that might be, he should procerd to state broadly the three branches which the noble lord had selected. First there were such servants of the public as had seats in either house of parliament; then there were those who filled diplomatic situations; and, thirdly, there were the occupants of judicial o ffi ces. He (Mr. Henley) thought he should be able to show that oath of these throe departments stood on special grounds, and that they left untouched the great branches of public expen diture. First, the judicial offices were paid in proportion to the income previously earned by the occupant at the bar, because it was necessary that those who were to guide and direct the administration of the law should previously have attained eminence in its study and practice. There was a specialit of itself requiring separate consideration. Next ease the diplomatic service, sad there, again, various circumstances were to be considered, such as the number of persons av"iliable having the tat emery talents, and thy 'spinets they were likely to incur in the countries to which they were accredited, items which might be influenced by manners, customs, and "'finial other causes, all of which must be taken into consideration. With respect to the third head, the gentlemen fill ing public offices, who held seats in either house of parliament ; there, again, be thought be should be able to show spretal circumstances distinguishing their position from that of other servants of the crown. He thought 'tat when he should show how large was the amount of expenditure that eye of parliament, or at all events came under notice after a lapse of time when the interest had passed away, that the house would be of opinion that in all Pose departments conkiderable saving might be effected. (Hear, bear.) He shoul.l now, with the permission of the house, proceed to state the amount of them various branchee. He found that under the heads custom*, excise, taxes, post-office, and crown lands—be was now looking at tie finance aceeunts ol 1131 S-49--that the amount paid in salaries and wages was no less than 2,818,0001. (Hear, hear.) Now, not one Ladd"' ol this came under the revi. et n of parliament at all. (Hear, hear.) He found that them was also paid to • .rious coital-Moneta in sa twice 271.2714., ..n4 that the diplomadc salaries am .unted to 140,0001. He &leo found as chimes on th.,. Consolidated Fund an :pr the heads of courts ol justice and police, no less than 1,097,9241. Thee items altogether elainahted to 4,327,0001., not One lartoing 01 which cease onier the review of perliareent. (Hear, hear.) There was a certain amount sealed by act of parliament to the lima of the present holder., but that was not a large arnow.t; and with respect t i the rest, which might be fairly stated at 4,000,0091 , not ono farthing, as he had before mid, ever 0111, under toe review of parliament. (Hear.) Torn in the army, navy, and ordnance, the salisies and ages, which had nothtne whatever to de with the fighting Mee, am-muted to 1,5 , M 0001. In the eommiseariat there Wee ahem 100,0001, end in tee mimel.aottous estimates about 1,031,0001.. us at-or a grand aggregate of all thtse tvla • 0 1 6, 9 74,0 0 0 1 . ( ilaar, bear.) hut that was not all. 'litre was a lam , out .unt of r ilaries which were under the contr.,' of g tveritiu. , nt, und ol which any halance saved went leto the each, quer. There were the county courts, with ail Wit judges and oaken, ease of the Ades in Bir B. HALL said-1 now rise to put to the noble lord at the head in the government the question of which I gave notice yesterday. The question I hams to put has reference to an office in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury, called the allies of registrar. It is a sinecure office, sad Its value, at 1 was informed previous to this day, is 9.0004 Bat I and that in that estimate I made a mistik bee ow 1 was this m irning informed by privy good au horLy, that In e•nueyuence of various tees and rut Austad., tr.is perfectly sinecure office is really womb upwards of 12,0001. a yeas. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") The arehiiiahop, f w the time being, has had the power and has ear milled it, of appointing one per+on to the offlqe, alai nominating two other% as vacancies might occur, to fill the office in anon solon. At the time that Archbishop Monte Iv 1.. the see one pitsm held the office, and two vacancies having occurred in the nomination, ►e nominated his two sons, Messrs John and Hebert Moore, &WI three two gentle. men in e.asequetee of surviving the ori.cinal nominee, seat msivrly bald tie °Wien of It •eistru of the Pri , rottative Court. (am, boos.) John Moors died a tow years ego, f` • THE EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY EVENING, MAY 1, 1850. ' Chancery, sad all tke benheuptcy setiglement, besides all the dames la musts a deleaniell law :.Hu Wiese' toss he miellt i tresst110,118011:411i1706100 .1s t to t e iw the eittrragab ear il ssui seas is the army; aavy, fiehmese teak is Med ambers, % .(448. semm i ill e e s e seva em agar r esis tee Mee cosNMI Ile of the earaatty. Mar.) MA psi they sae Mid It wee quite hapossible to me @WW2g set of the shit maws, sad ea all that was poseible le de nut In dew is cattle( dews the medike atelfliamessts. (11mr. hese.) In 1811 he lowa* the leer mese biambee el public re mises eastems. flimbe, rules, eel team cost the country, is salaries and other arum of collection, 1,993,5151. ; and in 1844—whey asemlies le tbe noble lord, great reductions had been made from Wee to time—the tariff having been revised in 1842, and between 100 and 200 articles entirely 'track out-4s 1844 the eat of collect ing these same lose brandies of mime had swollen to 2,034,0001 Bat that was not all. An important item far enteideratice in them owes tom the stspersaanstke allow anima (Hear, hear.) In 1838 the superannuation allowances ea account of those breathes of reveme—(his did not take the Pagoda.. into stwoust, because tits penny pang, having been introduced I. the interval, a fair somparlsos could not be made in that department se between the same two Years) —in 1833 the superannuation' paid to retired ahem from thee' departments, arsousted to 228,0001 ; and is 1844 they had risen to 254,0001. ; eo that there was as Mama' not only in the amount of the salaries, but in the superannuation' also, thus as it were add. fog to the expenditure on the right hand and on the left. But it might be said that the avenue had increased sines 1838; &twitting that to be the eau, yet he found that the coat of collecting had increased beyond its duo proportion. In 1838 the expense of collecting the customs revenue amounted to M. ON. 6d. per cent., and is 1844 it had rises to Si. 4.. 24 per cent. In the excise the sort of collecting in 1839 was 611.6.. 4.1. per coat , in 1844 it had risen to 61. 8.., and in stamps the oast of collecting had risen between thou two years from 21. le. 7d. to 21. Bs. 4d. per cent. He could not make any accurate comparison as to the increase in the per cent'se of the assessed taxes, because the impontim of the property tax within the two periods would derange the buds of the calculation. He now came to the com parison between 1841 and the present period. He assured the noble lord he was not unthankful for small mercies ; he rejoiced in any saving however small bat at present he did not find that any had been effected. In 1845 the house was promised distinctly by the then first minister of the crown (Bir R. Peel) that it they consented to the repeal of the glass and auction dudes, there would be • considerahle saving follow in the costs of collecting the re. venue. It was not often that the hottest had the benefit of a clear categoriesl explanation of anything from the right hon. baronet ; but on tuat particular occasion he did travel out of his usual cones*, and, with regard to flint glass, he told them that if the duty was taken off, the 57 per cent , which was the cost of collection, would be saved. The duty collected ipso flint gins was 61.0001., the cost of collection, therefore, would have been 34,0001. a year, and 80,0001. a year was to have been saved in the cost of collecting the auction duty. Again, they were led to expect that great economy would re sult from reducing the number of artich s in tne tariff by 430, and the consequent saving of the labour of clerks and collectors. On the two items, glass and auctions, they were promised a saving of 84,0001. a year, whereas the whole re duction which had taken place did not a count to that sum. In 1844 the total amount of salaries and superannuation. was 2.288.0001.; end in 1818 9 the two together amounted to 2,205,0001. ; the total saving being 83,0001., or a fraction less than what they had been promised by the right hon. baronet as srisiog from the abolition of the duties on flint glass and auctions. (Hear.) And this, notwithstanding the less expensive mode of ratting tea s by substituting, to a large :tent, direct for indirtct taxation, which had been adopted. He thought he had now shown that the government had not made out such a case of conti nued reduction is the charge on acriunt of these branches of public expenditure as would justify the hew" in saying that no useful revision of the salaries and ernoluntenu of these - - hear.) _as should elan these observation without ear lag thee he benne& En mows ked the good Intent to be seamed by as abb. lallias ot sad seines body of ✓ang german, ma. abet he should be sorry to my anythleg aeolosesep le *Op real or that was not in strict ludo denaoded. ver, that pubic establielemeate ought% be he a periodical vides. He begged toeOM the Isassifas bodes :—" That an bumble address be presealehte het Majesty, humbly to regent that oho will be groneuly pleased to direct that a einfel revision be made of the idolise and wages paid in every department of the publneerriee, with a view to &just and adequate redestisso 4M,044 dime regard being had to the efficient perineum' of the sewn' duties." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he was at a loss to undentsod the Meow which had induced the km. member ise Oxfordshire to submit his motion on the present emegelem The practice of economy had been urged upon MIMI firmer motions ; sad if he felt that the present govoramot bed been negligent of their duty in revising all6ll6Nlknente, or that the pressing government base 4l orgligant on that subject, or that be could not Ism fiat not only themselves but their prods igsses had been reducing expenditure, he should set be indisposed to acquiesces ht the present motion. But, when that course of revising public establishments had been pursued for some time past, and when his noble friend (Lord J. Russell) and himself had on a former occasion stated that reductions to a large extent had been effected, he brew sot what object or motive the hon. gentleman could have In bringing forward this motion, except it was to con vey some censure on these who did not deserve it, or to draw some conclusions which were not well founded. (Hear, bear.) The bon. gentleman had raid that he was ler a true and just economy. 8, were her Majesty's govern ment. But when the hon. gentleman proceeded further with his speech, it was difficult to know what it was he proposed to reduce. He had gone into a MUD. bee of topics not much connected with the subject before the house. For instance, when he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) came down to the house prepared to answer kiln, he had not expected, and therefore he was not pre pared to hear, a loug argument on the declared and official value of a variety of exported articles. (Haar, hear.) Ha berdashery had been alluded to. Haberdashery in farmer times had represented needlework by the hand, but recently much of it was manufactured by machinery, and thus • con siderable reduction in its price had been caused. When, therefor:, the hon. gentleman inferred that bet (use of the diminished value of the article, the price of needlework must be reduced, he was arguing from premises of which he appeared to be ignorant. Let the house consider the consistency of his argument. He had attempted to prove that all who earned their livelihood by the needle were is distress, end he had made use of the expression that " the throats of the tailors were cut by their wives and daughters." He (the Chancellor of the Eiche r/me) had read the other day that the great cause of depres sion among the tailors was owing to the low price paid for soldiers' clothing by the government. If this were so, then if the government were to reduce the wages paid for needle. work, they would still further depress the parties, and aggravate that distress which the hon. gen , le son bad pointed out. (" Oh !" and "Hear ") But the hon. gentleman seemed to blame his noble friend (Lord J. Russell) for having on a former eight, stated that many articles were not at this moment diminished. It was perfectly true there were several items on which no diminu tion had taken place. No doubt the price of corn was re duced, but the price of potatoes was considerably higher than they had been. He held in his hand an abstract of the meet of maintenance of the inmates of the Marylebone work house ; and from this he learned that the cost of maintain ing an inmate in that house in 1849, as compared with 1843, had been considerably increased, food and me dical attendance included. (Hear, hear.) The average Best in 1843 was 4s. Old., in 1949 it was 52. Oil; and yet the price of corn was lower now than It had been in 1813 Flour also was lower. The price of dour was 34e. 71d. in 1e43 ; it was 32s 3d. in 1819. Po tatoes, in 1843, wire 545.; is 1849 they were 107 s. Gd., or seemly double. The price of oatmeal had risen from lie. Ils. 414. Therefore, the reduction talked of by the hon. gentleman had not taken place in every item of consump tion; on the contrary, the increase which had taken place in the price of green groceries had compensated, or nearly so, for the reduction which had token place in the price of corn. (Hear hear.) He stood in a peculiar and somewhat painful position, as Chancellor of the Exchequer. In that house he was told that the government did not make reductions in the salaries of clerks and other offi cers. He wished he could transfer those who made that charge to his room in Dawning-street, where they would hear complaints continually made of the hardships caused oy the reduction of salaries which had taken place. And be must say that it not unfrequently happened that the par ties who reproached him in that house with extravagance were the parties who blamed him for having Dwells 11 re t. natty when they met him in his own office. (" lieu, hear,' and a laugh.) But the government had not been negligent even in reducing salaries. Nothing was more common than when • vacancy occured which must be tided up, to replace another man, giving him increased duties, and reducing the salary. It would not be right or fair, however, when the government were exacting additional labour from a diminished number of hands, that they should reduce their salaries. Oa the contrary, it would be most cruel and unjust to force anything like • general reduction of salaries under such circumstances. (Hear, hear.) The government were bound to protect the parties from such in justice ; and he confessed that heshould feel regret if men of this class were to have their eateries reduced by • vote of that house while the extent of their labour had been in. creased. (liter.) Tint hon. gentleman seemed to have omitted from his view those higher salaries of public servants, which had formed the subject of debate' on a former occasion. He (the Chancellor of the Exche quer) agreed with what the hon. member for Buckingham. shire had said on that eccesion, that all offices under the control of the government it was the duty of the government to econoiniee, but he did not believe the. the y ought by a I per centsge to lower the salaries of public servants. When vacancies occurred, it might be right to act upon that principle, but it would be monstrous injustice to reduce the salaries of those who bad, perhaps, been forty years in the service, and who atter Laborious servitude had worked them selves up to the few prizes, and they were very sew in eed, which public situations offered. Toe lower clues of clerks in the public service were not paid even as w .11 as menial ser vants ; ano surely, under such circumstances, the House of Commons would not ba so unmindfnl of that class of men as to reduce their gaieties ? (Hear, hear ) With regard to reduction of expenses in our establishment', he begged to be allowed to point out what had been done in past)ears, and be took years back, because he thought it would be unfair not to do justice to those who had been making reductions before the present government came into office. The go eernment had, from year to year and from day to day, been almost perp-tually engaged in making reductions. la 1834 a return bad been moved by his hon. and gallant relative (Colonel Sibtborp), end from that return he found that the salaries of public officer, in 1815 amounted to 3,700,0001, and that in 1133. i they had been reduced to 2,700,0001. Let him refer to the treasury department more particularly, fur then the house would see that, especially in that description of offices which were heretofore co:soldered as places for the exercise of the patronage of the minister, considerable reductions had been made, to an extent of which hen. members might not be aware. Excluding the lowest class of clerks in the treasury, there were, in the year 1821, 39 persona receiving salaries of 42,960/. a year. At present, in the same department, there were 29 persons whom united salaries amounted to 24.6801., being a reduction in 30 years of nearly 18,0001. (Hear, hear.) In 1821 there were three several bards of customs, and twenty - one ccosmissioners who had 26,500 . a year. Now there were only sight com missioners, worse salaries amounted to 10,9001. In the board of inland revenue, as it was now called, there were iu 1821 forty-one commissioners assessing 43.3001. a year; departments could be made. There was another branch of expenditure which be thought might fairly be considered. No man, he cone ived, would say with regard to the various paid commissions which were in existence, that if those com missions were new to be proposed for the first time the suee amount of salary would in all cues attach to them. (Hear, hear.) He recollected that some six or seven years ago a commission was appointed for the management of eases of lunacy, and that some discussion took place as to the amount of salary which the commissioners should receive. Would any man who took part in that discussion say now, if the question were again raised, that there woult be any diffe. fence of opinion as to fixing the minimum salary then pro posed 1 He knew not whether the noble lord considered the ease of these commissioners to come within the terms of his committee en public salaries, he di i not know but he thought it one to which inquiry should be extended. (Hear.) There was a body of commissioners attached to the Court of Chancery, Masters in Lunacy he beiieved they were called, whose duty it was to preside over in quiries as to unsoundness of mind; these gentlemen re ceived a salary of 2 00'1. each, but on what principle, seeing that a county courts judge received only halfithat amount, he could not conceive. (lieu, hear) In his opinion the whole of this class of salaries ought to undergo revision. (Hear, hear.) lie cams now to another branch of the subject, in which, however, the noble lord (John Russell) had, by the course he had himself taken, relieved him in a great measure from the neces-ity of showing why a revision should take piece. It was as necessary with nations as with indiviluels that they shouldoecati lull, examine and overhaul their affairs ; and the noble lore would not have apt poiuted his official salaries committee if he had not felt that there was something in the orcurnstantes of the present time requir.ng some revision of those salaries. (Hear, hear.) As to the policy of legislating to secure low prices he would not now offer any opinion (hear, hear) and no &doubt the reduction which had taken place in the price of many articles had been in consequence of the operation of circumstances over which we had no control. Within the last twenty years we had snide considerable reductions in the interest of the public debt—this proved that the rats of interest had diminished. The difficulty of obtaining the means of subsistence by per sons of small or moderate capital might be judged of from the extent to which emigration was proceeding, for it must be remembered that people would not generally leave their own country willingly while they were able to get a living in it, and it was the pressure of circumstances which drove them from their native home , to a foreign country. The number of emigrant., which in 1028 was 26,000, had risen in 1848 to 248,600. This fact alone proved how severe must be the pressure upon the people. Nor was the increase confined to the labouring class, but it extended to these who possessed capital, and were in the habit of giving employment to labour, as might be gathered from a comparison of the number of cabin passengers in the two years he had mentioned. In 1828, the number of emi grants who bad taken a cabin passage had been 4,829, but in 1848 it had risen to 11,500. Again, let them look to the criminal returns. He took those of 1848, those of 1849 not having yet been published, and he found that in 1831 the number of criminals had been 19,600, and in 1818 they had increased to 30,610. No doubt there had been a con siderable increase in the population between the two years, but the increase in the population bore no comparison to the increa-e in the number of criminals. (Hear, bear.) lie now came to the question of prices, and taking the official returns of the declared and official values of the four great branches of exports, cotton, woollen, silk, and linen for the year 1828, and comparing them with the returns of 1848, he found a considerable de crease in the price of ell those articles in the latter year. It was the same with haberdashery and millinery, end in all the products of the needle the competition had lowered prices to a ruinous extent. Tile pressure upon the artisans had compelled their wives and daughters to resort to the needle as a means of eking out a scanty subsistence. According to the Registrar-General's abstract, there wen, in the year 1841, in round numbers, 4-'B,OOO persons em ployed in the four staple branches, and there were 482,000 persons employed as shoemakers, dressmakers, milliners, stsymakers, and tailors. Therefore, the shoemakers and the other trades here mentioned nearly amounted to the number of parties employed in the four great branches, and when the house recollected that a great number of children were em pleyed at the needle, it must be evident that the unfortunate trades in question constituted a large portion of the people. (Hear) But, now, he wished to call attention to those articles as they appeared in the table of exports, He found that, in 1828, the declared value throughout exceeded the official value. In 1828, the declared value was ten times more than the official value. In 1838.39 it was something the same. In 1843.44 it had cot much altered ; it bad not , perceptibly advanced. In 1848 . 49 it had altered in this re ' makable degree, that, whereas in the former case the dielered value ass ten times the quantity marked by the said value, it bad only doubled in 1848.49. Therefore the depreciation in this particular clue of goods, between the periods of 1828 and 1848, had been very considerable. (Hear, hear.) He knew not to what extent these tables were to be taken as a guide, built appeared that there must have been 1131110 cause at work during the last four years to affect those branches of trade in so remarkable • degree. (Hear, hear) Now, he bad already anti ned that the noble lord (J. Russell) stated the other sight that, in the detailed amount he had obtained of the various matter. cf inco ne, he could find only two or three Geddes in which there had been any material diminution. He (Mr. Henley) had been making some inquiry—because dim were matters which could only be gut from private asurses—and he found that a diminution had taken place in a Nag list of articles. Beef and mutton, for instance, be tween 1829 and 1819, had been depreciated perhaps 17 per cent. ; at the present time the depreciation was 24 per ant. Bread had been depreciated 20 per cent. In groceries, on 62 articles, the diminution was 25 per sent. Hay, straw, and corn were diminished 20 per cent. Furniture and ironmongery had diminished 20 percent. and linen 16 per cent. He was now speaking of are. retail prices of these articles. Cotton had diminished 30 per cent. ; woollens, 20 per cent. ; hosiery, 25 per cent. ; fuel, 25 per cent. ; and beer, 20 per cent. It wee difficult to say what the per untege of dimi nution in locoutoti-in had been. But, looking at the articles he had enumerated, he could not assent to the statement of the noble lord that there had been only one or two articles in which a mate rial dinsiuwion hail taken place. It was no egrets able or pleasant task for anybody to talk of reductions, bet standing as he did there ea an independent member, and a trustee for the public, having formed a strong opinion on this matter, he could not avoid bringing it before the notice of the house. (Cheers.) Whether he might he suceessful or nut he could not tell, but of this he was certain, that it what he had stated was well founded, it was of such importance i-e an economic point of view that it must force itself oa public attention. If, on the other hand, he had taken a mistaken view, he had at all events done his ditty its bringing the matter fairly, sod, he hoped temperately, be iges the how for cousidsrati4Q and discussion. (Rear, 1,604 , and at piesent there were only eight coracni.stoners . witli salaries of 11,2001. a year. In the revenue department altogether there had been seventy-fire superior offic.n whose united salaries came to 60,2801., hut the government had pared down these establishments very considerably. Even within the last few years, in the salary payable at the treasury in 1849, as compared with 1847, there had been a reduction el 6,0001. a year. The government, therefore, had not been unmindful of that eco nomy which the house was so anxious to see carried into effect. (Hear. hear.) Since the year 1833 various consoli dations had taken place, as his noble friend (Lord J. Emotell) had intimated the other night. Reductions of establish ments had been made—these reductions in number of persons employed being 2,000, and the expense being diminished by nearly a quarter of a mil:ion ster ling. (Hear, hear.) In the revenue department, a reduction of 66,0001. a year had been made, in compliance with the recommendations of the first report suhmitt. d to the house, sad a further reduction was recommend. d in the second report of 7,0001 ; but it was necessary, in making these large reductioi a, to look at the security of the r,vi nue, aryl to take ears teat no real ground of complaint, upon the score of inefficient service, was given merchants is the carrying on of their trade. (Hear, bear.) By the consolidation under one head in the Pity office, a saving in salaries had been effected to the extent of 16,0001. a year. The charge for the collection of the public retinue had also been diminished, although it did not always follow that a reduction in the amount of revenue by a retiuction of tales, caused a corresponding diminution in the charge for collection, because the same machinery was kept up, and the same process gone through for a small as for a large revenue. Notwithstanding that a considerable reduction had taken place in the charge for collection. Comparing the year ending the sth day of January, 1848, with the year ending 6th January, 1860, the charge in the first year 1847 for collecting the customs was 61. 19, 6d. per cent., and in 1849, 61. 168.94 d. per cent. For cullec.ing we excise there had been a reduction from 61 7e. W. to 61. 13s. 6).1., being a reduction of upwards of 14s. per cent. is two years. The charge for coll. cting the stamps wet re duced from 21. Is. 34d. to 21. Os. 74d. ; and that for the taxes from 31. Go. 64d. to 31. 68. N It shou.d he borne in mind that these reductions between 1847 and 1849 had Welt effected in the face of a coesiderahly increased amount of business in the various departments of government. The right hon. gentleman then proceeded to chow that private eotabliahments, whore the interests involved were more concerned were not card. don with more economy than the affair" of government. He found that the salaries of all descriptions paid by the Bank of England amounted to 211,0001., whereas the whole of the salaries at the govern ment, including the Treasury, the Home-office, the Foreign office, the Colonial-office, the Council-office, the 11 iard of Trade, end the department of education , amounted to only 238,1.8;01., showing 'hat all the great offices of the ioulitry cues tolls about 20,0001. more than a &nigh ptiv.it coh.ldish. went. But beside that, there were only about 6 or 8 P. None (exclusive of the solicitors, who were paid Sc.'rdii g to amount of services) whose salaries amounted to 2,0001. And yet, looking at the list India Company they found a iftratary with 2,4001. a year, several officers wigs 2,0001., mei ~~~ ._. 1 ~_`._l. - • nation, he (Sir B. Peel) readily voted for the motion of right hon. ge ntl eman the Chancellor of the Ex ellagner, which implied that the sense of the house should not be taken on the motion of the hon. member for Oxfordshire. (Hear, hear.) Mt. COBDEN (whose opening obeervatione were not audible in the gallery) said he shoula oppose the motion of the hon. member for Oxfordshire, because it contemplated a general reduction of salaries as well as of wages. If he accepted it as contemplating a redaction of wages, then he (Mr. Cobden) was brought in that house into actual hostility and contact with the general reduction of wages throughout the country; for it certainly would be regarded as a war upon wages. (" Hear, hear," from the protectionist benches.) When he referred to wages he meant the pay or emolument of the men who were employed weekly and ' , aid for their labour. (Hear, hear.) Now, he (Mr. Cobden) objected to soy reduction of wages by a vote of that house, because it would be impracticable, and being so, could be regarded as nothing better than nonsense. (Hear, hear.) He also objected to the attempt then made to reduce salaries or wages, because he was opposed to the way in which the question had been urged by hon. gentlemen on the opposite side of toe house. (Hear, hear.) It had been laid by hon. gentlemen opposite that since 1828 and 182'J there had been a reduction in the prices of articles of consumption—such as meat, flour, iron, and woollens, of from twenty to twenty-five per cent. ; and they then argued from that that there should be a propor tionate reduction in the amount of salaries and wages. (" Hear, hear," from the protectionist benches.) Now he did not see the necessary consequence of these premises. (Hear, hear.) There might be a reduction in the price of commodities because of the improvements and novel inven tions brought into operation in the production of thee, arti cles. (Hear.) Iron was cheaper at present, by reason of these improvements and inventions which economised the means of production. (Hear, hear.) There also had been improvements in the mode of producing corn and cattle. —(laughter cad " hear, bear.")—and conseTiently they were cheaper at present than at the period referred to. (Hear, hear.) A great amount of drainage had been at comolisbed, and guano had been brought into general use ; and basing attained these discoveries in science and in the mode of production, he a.kei why should not the working classes, as well as the other clams in society, share in the benefit of them. (W ar, hear.) The hon. gentleman oppo- site (Mr. Henley, se we understood) had spoken as though every class in the community, as well as the hard-working class, had cohered a diminution in their incomes. I Prot. c tionist cries of " hear, hear.") lie denied that. (!tear, hear.) He denied that rents had been reduced—that there bed been a general reduction of tkem—(hear, bear) ; at least, there bad been no reduction in the north of Eng land, and he did not anticipate any. (Herr, hear.) Now, as to a reduction in the price of commodities leading to a reduction of wages, he maintained the tendency was quite the other way. (lieu, hear.) He would take the manufacturing operatives of the country as an instance, and assert that Outing the very process that hon. gentlemen op posite were complaining or, the reduction in the cost of living there had b.en a tendency to advance the wages of thine engaged in such pursuits. (Hear, hear.) They heard a great deal in the way of complaints about the distress of the stocking weavers, lace makers, and similar branches in the midland counties. But what was the fact ? Why, that there had been striki a repeatedly, and consequent advance of wages to an amount that had not teen keown for fifty years previously. (Hear, hear.) How, there fore, could honourable gentlemen come leeward and say the country was in such a distressed state that the salaries of the government clerks and officials should be reduced ? (Hear, heir.) They might as well tell him that the wages of the egriculturirts had been or should be reduced. (Protectienist cries of "Hear, bear.") They had heretofore been reduced to that state in which the re ward of labour was measured by the n.eans of subsistence. ( Hear, hear.) They had been reduced to what he (Mr. Cobden) should term the slavery state of wages, (Hear, hear.) The state of things in the a:ricultural districts heretofore was such that the labourer employed received only an amindit of wages which, when converted into food, had been merely sufficient for the sustenance of himself and family. (Hear, hear.) When the price of food rose his wag. s were lIICYMC , i, to enable him to get food ; and, when the price of food fell, his wages were reduced to the level that procured him merely the came amount of food. (lieu, hear.) In the agricultural districts he maintained, notwith , taaling that there might have been some reductions in money wares, that tee labourer was better off since food hat been reduced to a more moderate prise than in the year 1817, the boasted year of prosperity. He bad in his possession a pamphlet= the subject, whicn enume rated some 13000 government clerks, bat of which number only 8,000 had salaries of 1002. a year. (Hear) Now was it proposed by the resolution of the kon. member for Ozfard shire that the whoie of these clerks should have their sala ries reduced ? ( Hear, heal.) He protested against such, as it would be a most unjust and unbusinesslike conclusion to arrive at, and also as it would be totally impoisi Ole to effect it. I Hear, hear.) He joined in the expreetira of opinion of several hon. gentlemen that in the use of a large propor tion of the servants of government, the nisei s erre not high. (Hear, hear.) He ji.ined in the opinion expressed that it would be better to diminish the number of servants than to reduce the Wake of those holding places. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman who introduced the motion, as well as others on his side of the house, who followed him, went out of their way to am& him (Mr. Cobden) for hieing said that the best way to reduce the expecte, of the country was by a reduction of the armament ; and they then went on to give en exagge rated statement of what he had really sold, as though he had stated that no reduction should be made except io the army. (Hear, bear) What he (Mr. Cobden) really did say was, that they cJiall make no material reduction utiles , telt t touched that great item, the military establishment. (Hear, hear.) And he wished to know what was the r.sul: of the reducions that had been made since the period when he made that assertion ? (Hear, hear.) In 1549 and 1849 Le from. .4. and 1,0001. The seceetairies e 1 Many of sear tea; and dock ermipeades had salaries as high as 2,00 W, and 001111111inee emending that amount. Benere he wee late the house he had received a document giillag an asiniat of • *death establishment in Landon—a brewery. It stated that the solarise of the establishment is 1846 alootusted to 9,6061., and that in 1849 the sane porous were 10,9491., which, so far from a reduction, showed an of 1,3441. within throe year.. By a voluminous M imi he ascertained that the number of parsons employed by the government in France was 236,000, whereas the num. her in this coustry was somewhere emit 60,000. In fact he believed there wee no country in the world where the public smite was carried on by so small a number of officials and at so small an expense as this country. It was hie perfect conviction that the permanent servants of the public in this country were by no means en overpaid body of men. They were sometimes induced to leave the public 'mice and go into private establishments, becalms they could get higher salutes there, ,and of course the government mild not prevent it. The best plan, depend on it, was to obtain good services at an adequate salary. While be did not wish to negative the principle of the hon. gentleman by opposing his motion, he would ask the house to adopt • course which would do away with the censure it conveyed. He, therefore, moved the previous question. The SPEAKER having put the question, Cul. BIBTHORP refused to believe that any revision of salaries had taken places under the auspices of the frevernmeat, or to expect such a revision from the committee lately appointed by the prime minister. The gallant mew ber continued for some time to dilate upon the evils of free trade and foreign competition. ' Mr. NEWDEGATE related the occasions when treasury officials had petitioned fur an increase of salary on the plea of the high prices of provisions. He inferred from these precedents the propriety of again reducing the salaries now that prices had fallen. Mr. HUME said the inquiry of the committee moved for by the noble lord at the head of the government on a former evenieg was of a limited character, and by no means super seded the necessity for adopting the motion before the house, which he believed would meet with the approbation of the public, and which he therefore regretted had not ;been adopted, instead of opposed by the government. He oleo observed upon the enormous disproportion which the non. effective bore to the effective service of the country, and without denying the reductirm which had been made by the government, or imputing any blame to them fur not doing more, he thought it highly desirable that the motion should be agreed to by the house. Mr. ROEBUCK, approving of the idea of a scrutiny, believed that the result would be to show that the working staff of officials who lid the business of the nation were die gracefully underpaid. In the treasury the clerks begin at 901. a year, and by dint of labour, good conduct, and talent, might si.e to 2001. by the time they were 33 years old; to 600/. at 60; and if promoted into the highest class might receive 1,0001. per annum when 59. The country had a right to have the question settled, of which Lord J. Russell's motion of the " previous question" was a mere evasion. Sir R. PEEL said that he agreed with so much of what bad been said by the hon. and learned gentleman, particu larly with regard to the a , role. of those who occupied subor dinate places in the chief departments of the sta'e, and the obligations due to them from the public for the real, integrity, and ability with which they discharged their duties—(hear, hear) —that he felt hound to explain the reason why he had come to a con clusion at variance with that to which the hon. and learned geatli man had arrived. Tho reason was that he put a different construction on the motion and a different con struction on the effect of the amendment, by which it was met, namely the previous question, from the hon. and learned gentleman. He did not understand the hon. gentleman to move for a parliamentary inquiry into these departments. (Hear, hear.) A parliamentary inquiry has been already in stituted with respect to all the chief officers of the state—the diplomatic departments, the judicial departments, and with neer et to the salaries of all the chief officers of the state who held seats in parliament. But the object of the resolution of the hon. member for Oxfordshire was not, he apprehended, parliamentary inquiry, but to impose on the government the fulfilment of the duty sought to be enjoined un them by the motion of the hon. member for Buckinghamshire— namely, that the government should he the parties to undertake the revision, and that they should then submit their scheme of reduction, if reduction they considered advisable, to the house. (Hear, hear.) The hon. and learned gentleman said the motion was a truism, and should therefore be acquiesced in. He (Sir R. Peel) did not agree in that doctrine. 'there were many truisms moved in that house which he did not think should be acquiesced in, because if every motion was to be usented to becaure it was a truism, then the entire time of that house would be occupied in considering trui,me. (Hear, hear.) Let not the house of Commons, therefore, assent to truisms unless they had :a practical bearing. (Hear.) The hon. and learned gentleman admitted that he did not think any great reductions could be made in the salaries of those en gaged in the public service, and particularly with regard to that class of officers whom the hon. gentleman did nut con sider to ba sufficiently, or more than sufficiently remu nerated. It was because he (Sir R. Peel) agreed with the hon. and learned gentleman in that view, that he c ruld not countenance the delusion that the granting of an inquiry would give rite to, and when are voted for the previous quettion, he did not mean to negative or to pus pone inquiry. (Hear, hear.) If inquiry was necessary let it I.e made by the authority which was fit to conduct it, namely, the executive govern ment. In voting for the previous question, he only meant to affirm that es this resolution could only lead to Gimp pointment, nail to no practical result, he could not acquiesce in it. He did not mean to imply in voting for the previous question that this was not the time when revision ought ; to take plece, and when reduction ought to be made in every department of the state where it was possible. (Hear.) But the hon. gentleman referred to a speech made by him (Sir It. Peel) in 1845, with respect to which he Lit the house under an erroneous impression. In that sp. ech, as well as he recollected it, he did not lay down the position that unless they reduced their military establishments ti ere could be no • reduction in the public expenditure. What he said was that the expenditure of 1815 was 48,000,0001., and that " there was a general impression on the part of the public that there was an opportunity of mak ing great reductions But it was an erroneous impres sion if it was supposed that he said the whole of that 48,000,0001. admitted of reduction, for they must deduct from that sum the whole amount of the public debt, the civil list, the cost of their military and naval establishments. Making a deduction of 33,000,0001. on account of these claims, which could not be reduced by the executive government, there remained only 13,000,0001. as the area on which economy could be practised, including tha great military establishments, and he added that it would be countenancing an erroneous expectation, if the public were led to entertain an opinion that any great reduction could be made in the civil establish ments. (Hear) The hon. gentleman referred to the reduction of the excise duties. p irticulorly the abolition of the glees and auction duties, and lett the house under the impression that be held out expectations wnich were not fulfilled. He did nit think that was the case. (Hear.) He said that one recommendation for the abolition of the auction and glass duties was, Viet beyond the mere relief from the duties, there was •he reduction of the excise esta blishments which would follow from the abolition of these duties. Well, in the following year, 1846, it appeared that 450 persons who held excise offices were reduced, and the amount of saving, in point of salaries, was 62,0001. ; so that the expectations he held out were entirely tulfilled. (Hear.) If there had been any increase in other departments, that did not warrant the hon. gentleman in interring that the expirations which he held out from the reduc'ion of these duties had not been fulfilled. (Hear, hear.) He must say that the reduction of so great • number of etheres also proved that the imputation that the government wished to maintain these Aim for the purpose of patronage was wholly groundless. (Hear, hear.) It would be as unjust to say that tae army was meintmaed for the purpose of finding commissions for the eons of the aristocracy, as that the government sanctioned great civil establishments for the *eke et patronage. (Hear, hear.) He had been for several years First Lord of the Treasury, and he could say for himself, and he believed every other First Lord of the Treasury could say the same, that if for no other reason yet for toe relief from the burden which the possession of patronage entailed, he should wish to see it as limited as possible. (Hear, bear.) He would vote 1... r the previous question, because he had experience in the/ft matters, be cause he thought that the question of reduction was best left in the bands of the government, who had given idea that they were anxious for reduction and retrenchment, a,d that they desired to continue in that path. (II ar, hear.) The rule with regard to pars ins in subordinate government employment was not diminished pay, but it was increased work at any rate. (Hear, hear.) If he cemented the num ber of papers recorded now with what it was ten or twenty years ago, the duty now would at least be found to be double. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman said thee there parsons were not required to do duty by night. He believed that the noble lord the &remarry of State for Foreign Affairs would confirm him in the statement that the oases engaged in that department considered their services to be at the diep oat of ' 'heir superiors by night as well as by day. (Hear, hear.) These gentlemen entered upon their duties at salary commencing at 901, which was perfectly insufficient to meet their expenses—(hear, hear)—and they remained at this salary for two or Sneer years. (Hear, hear.) After game length of service they received 200/. a year. (Hear, hear.) But it was not the amount et labour that these trustpereu persons which had was reposedtoperft.. rmwihn almos t iehshould lair of t e th men . considered, bat (Rear, hear.) hear.) No secretary of state, no firs: lord of the treasury, could go through his duty without entrusting secrets of state to men havii.g only 40111. a year. And could they g've hint an bedew* in which this confidence had been violated. (Hear, hear 1 It was not, therefore, the amount of labour alone which was to be re garded, but the extent of the honourable confidence which was to leo reposed in these parsons ; and nothieg could be more miact.ievaus for the public service that to reduce the emoluments of these subordinate officers to such sit extent as would make them umemable by men who might not, per hops, have the means, hut who had the feelings and honour of gentlemen. ( Hear, hear.) He had an experience of 40 years in the var ious otti:es of the state, and he felt bound on this occasion to give his testimony to the scrupulous fidelity and the great ability displayed by those. prisons who fitted the subordinate poste. (Loud cheers.) The reductions ought to commence with those who held the highest offices: and in saying . so he would take that opportunity of spres.ing his opinion on that point, whirl. was t those who li led the highest officio diet not rece z .ve an enemy. of remoneraton in the slightest degree g reater . than that to whic't they ware entitled, not alone 'ay the onerotte duties that devolved upon the in, but wnich the ieaereds of the public likewise attached to those (low (Hear, hear.) } et ling that opinion, and believing all that those who filled the subaltern aloe were entitled to expenses for the military, including ihe Kaffir war, amounted to 18,700,0001. whilst at present the whole of their estimates amounted only to 14,300,0001. (Hear, h.ar So that, so far from being wrong, he found tte whole expenses of army, navy, and ordnance had beet consideraoly reduced. (Hear, hear.) He thought the hon. gentleman also went out of his way in entering into a de fence of the military establishment, which did not at a.: belong to his motion. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman had stated that 6,500,0001. was :he amount that would l required for the effective service; but iffevive and non effecive it amounted, as he (Mr. Cobden) bed already stated, to 14,3:0,0001. (Hear, hear.) Ani, indeed, he might say that the time had come when they ought t) deal with the effective and non-effective, with the els:, list as well as with the military, not by stopping the pen sions of those who at present held them, but by stopping them when the existing recipients should die i ff. (Hear. hear.) Indeed, looking at the system of pensions and superannuation, he did not sets how they could act otherwise. He (Mr. Cobden) opposed the motion of the honourable member for OxforclAire, because be objected that the humble salaries of humb:o but deserving individuals should be reduced. (Heir, hear.) He also opposed the motion because of the reasons urged for that reduction, and became he would not have a blemish can upon the prin ciples of tree trade. (Hear, bear) He (Mr. Cobden) would not be a party to make it appear that this country was less able now, fattier the provisions of free trade to pay their servants than heretofore, under the system of protec tion—(chews)—or that in consequence of the operation of tree trade these servants were to be paid leis. and that the people of all classes had not a right to the benefits COW@ quint on free trade operations—therefore he (Mr. Cobden) should vote ageinst the motion. (Cheers ) Mr. H. DKUMMOND quoted from a speech delivered on the first née ht of the session the assertion that ninny millions had been saved through free trade, and demanded to have a per coinage of that savius returned to the: country by a te duction of official salaries. He suspected the utility of com mittees and commissions, and taunted the ministry with employing the appointments thus opened by way of bribe to the economists. The reason why, sot the number art persons but the amount of salaries, was the object of the motion was that there had been a u.iiversal depression of prices, the result, not of a casual state in things, but of a system. . Mr. Wt)O1) said, the motion had been improved from the tough draft of last year, yet, looking at it wi:h the ominous addition of " wages," he saw at clump what was to go torth to the world If the motion was agreed to. He believed that the government were makicg revisions and reduction' ; and, therefore, by adopting the motion he should, one one hand pass an undeserved c. notice upon the government, and, on. the other, hilt the people that, in consequence of tree trade. wages thrantrhout th• country were to be reduced. Mr. DISRAELI said that so far as an opinion could be formed Irom what had been done. either in that or the pre ceding session, or from what reached Him from am. mblies in the community, it seemed to be agreed on all hands that the pressure of taxation was excessive. (Hear. hear.) They had tor a considerab:e number of years been reducing all that class of taxation which pressed most grtev.•uely o•.t the springs of industry. For a number of years milli,.e attar million was Wien from the alanilders of that chos with which the hon. member for the West Riding was perticularly connected. (Hear, hear.) Nearly nine millions art taxa tion were remitted ; the object of that remb.sion be'itt to make life more easy and the necessary burden of t nation more light. The hon. gentleman and his friends form. rly said, " Hepeal the corn law,, And we can beat the world the corn laws were repealed, but the burden had not yet vanished. (Laughter.) The bun. gentleman and his triends liming up to that bight been apparently proud art being the heralds of wile. was called " the new movement," which wee to have reduced the expenditure and taxotion of the country, appeared to act on that occasion as it any were themsi Ives Chancellors of the Exchequer—(lineriterl—as if it were their business to paint in rosy hues the pr.siiering fortunes of a tiourishing community. (L ingh , er.) rhe agricultural classes' finding their means don ~,,, ntd, and the burden of taxation more grievous, naturally rough•. a legit ' iAt IVO source et rebel. Now, what was the s .ur..e of relief to b t lt they wished to diminish the cap n.li use of the countO, the lint thought was naturally to reduce , si•ation. Accordingly hon. members on that side had proposed or soppnrteil ineatopr, which had the , tendency. T... y lied thus subjected themselves to imputations free man) hon. gentlemen, and even tram SOW persons so dis'.tngut•lted rs to sit on the treasury bench. He should no , then t 0 tea assitlUtitie'd statements which, being mad • in looted fit ylioqlo , and at a late hour of the night, were • x u‘oh'e— (laughter)—hut really when the noble lord, they (the protectionist m mb. rip bed given a vote r two the object of which was to effect some remission art tax ition, charged them with intending to break faith with •' e pelt is creditor, and to distill the p e cuniary ohligs i ot the country, he made a charge which was little au bonged-7 certainly nut authorised by Any facts to which lb. n ble could refer—purely imaginary, and not at all just tie.t by the vote on the subject of the window tax. (Il or, Ite..r 1 hiel hail given nn vot e s for the remission of 'Asa ion a :nth were net authorised by the elate of t he public tlitsectv.—(hear, —_ lent, and, on. ' bet ot tree trade. the in !ed. slate Lion could be lord t .t or the pre- that c , m awn mblies Let la II hands that '-: time a Hear, hew.) . (Heat tech reducing . Place rarlev , usly tr./ polite a million att ~r Well!' it C 6.1 with Straw ar, particularly inflate dons ot taxa- Lot non brim to *Mee i ot taxation house ends forma rly addre t the world :" reei a l a hail not yet seven end his friends to th 101 being the !meat." which inch Whet axoioat of the I it tta. y were eveni ugraterl—as if *a HI, the pr. layering of at itehaer.) rho amou betnd, and the Pon, lake", sough . . a teals- tiro, ' , arca. of relief that i n•".. ure of the educe ~ action. very ploye had propoted jeeter cy. T.a.y had C4ll , tek man) hon. with icangut.lied is with o , then a 0 led in ti, I , in tuote,l file.. ere • • u‘ah'e— point rt, b. CAW.' they liana, ote . r two tho that on of tax anon, ex'ea with • a e puh'id 1414je digs i In, ot the thou, le no honied — meat h tin n -ale tofu Stela jun tieb by the Mehl r, lir..r I . 1 .11 .1 Matti ion ahiett wi - re /biro Inlet:m-OW, the ( ! I f