The Express. — London, England, 1850-05-07 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS-MONDAY, MAT 8. The house set at five o'clock. Lord Caieraau. sat Sposkirt. PETITIONS PRESENTED. Aoaicouriol: of JURE WO JD, from mural places la Yorkshire ; Earl of ZOLIN TON, free places in Laud Wale sod tens Berwick, ma plaisisig of agricultural disarm Alan frost the same place, anima skip Corn Trade Room' °bamboos (Scotland) COMIT or CIAXCRIT.—AIso, from the sme puce, ia fa vour of loam measure to facilitate proceedings in the Court of Mani:wry. Corm Raven.—By the Earl of FALMOUTH, from Bodesla, oa the mildest of aplenty wee. Corsrr Corava.—By Lord BROUGHAM, from Oxford and other pleas, fr ismer of the extension of the principle of musty soarta. He hop , d the government would take the meanie* sow Wore perliaaniat into their own hands. OFFICE OF REGISTRAR OF THE PREROGATIVE Archbishop of CANTIIMBIIRY said—My lords, I will take this opportuaity of explaining a nudger relating to myself, which has beim pestle wilettader stood. It is with much relnetanese that I tremble your lot dahlia' on a subject chiefly preheat, but I have no other muss of clearing myself from an imputation which 1 treat cannot justly be laid to my charge. My lords, it has been supposed, and your lordships may pulite have heard that I have sogaiseted one of my ease to a valuable reversioaaryliMPOlM in the Prerogative Curt of Canterbury. My; lords, the case is so, as regards the reversionary visa: the ease is not so as regards either the value or the unseen. It is not generally known, or I eboaM not have the necessity ▪ addreesiag your lord-hi; a, that in the seising of 1847 an set was pissed which placed the Peer 'gating Court of Caa terbury ander the control of parliament in respect to all future nominations; and tbe office of registrar, it ever held by my son, which is very uncertain, not to say improbable, will be performed in person, and its salary regulated sowed tag to the duties and mpinsibilities of the station. 8o meth, my lords, in regard to the sine cars and its value. Indeed the value, sccardiog to the doctrine of chinch, would be isearcely equal to the stamp on which the nomination is recorded. Bat it has been supposed that, in guiltiest this appointment, I bah availed ms self of a privilege which my venerable predecessor declined to exercise My lords, I have already eiplaised the reform.s why my predecessor would not nominate to this office : it would have been inconsistent with that disinterestedness and moderation which distin guished all that he did if he had nominated to a rehnion ary sinecure. It was not till the close of the session of a few months before his death, that the act passed which toek away the datum It took away the sinecure and it limited the value ; but the office must remain, and mut be filled. Wherever there is &diocese there must be a registry, and where there is a registry there must he a registrar, and I trust that in nominating prospectively that registrar I shall, in the judgmeat of your Idrdshipe, have energised a privilege to which I was both legally and mo rally Milled, and have done nothing which, when ex plained, eh subject me to thecharge of nepotism—an impu tati in which I hope neither has been nor ever will be the characterisde of my official carver. (Hear, hear ) The Biehap of LONDON felt himself bound to state a circumstance which had come to his knowledge). The office of registrar of the diocese of Chester, which was one of great value, being worth many thousa-ds a year, bad become vacant whets his most reverend friend waste bishop of that diocese, and he might then have appointed either of his eons to that office. A former bishop "pp:Anted a son to fill it when he was only six months old, het he held it for seven years. The Ales ham* vacant just as he ithe Bishop of London) left the diocese, and he was succeeded by the most reverend prelate, who did cot, howev.r, give the office to his own am. but to a person unconnected with him, and only upon the single condition that he should perform the duties in person. It, therefore, sphered that when he had the epporturiry he had not given a valuable office in his own family, and that which he had sow fives was not likely to be valuable in the reversion. (Hear, beer) THE UNIVERSITIES. Lord BROUGHAM wished to ask if there was any oh infirm oa the part of the government to lay on the table of the bony a copy of the goiniainion which he was surprised to use was about to be issued to inquire yaw the audition of the two Univ. nide@ of Odra 1111.1 Cambridge. The Marquis ef LANSDOWNE was understood to say that the tommission had sot yet been issued, and that its form sad tunas would require martini considervion. L nd BROUGHAM mid without an set of:parliament the comenissios would be of ao use. Lord MONTEAOLE said that within the list four or five years the cash of academical reform at Cambridge had pro. greeted very greatly, as also at Oxford, and it would become •sericus qussoson how far aay intreenence with thew to buttery exertions might not have the effect of retarding farther improvements. PARISH CONSTABLES BILL. _ . . _ _ _ Oa the motion W the Karl or ROMNEY, Ws bill was read • we .tcl time. EDI:MATT,: IN IRELAND. _ _ The Merged; of LANSDOWNE laid ea — the table the annual report of she Coattabdosers of Eduestioa in behead. PECCESS AND PRACTICE (IRELAND) BILL. The Earl of CARLISLE moved Ms' this bell go through committee pro forma, with a view to add senendmente. After a few words from lord MONTEAOLE, The Esti of GLENGALL "di that be bed some amend meats to pro, ewe which would in a certain degree diminish the enmities of pomades/ in I•rtlend. The hill was thou cemmi.ted pro forms. ECCLESIASTICAL APPELLATE JURISDICTION. The Bishop of LONDON laid on the hide cf the house a hill to amend the law with nomeem to tae administration of justice, by the Judid Committee of the Privy C.umil in gases of appeals from the ecclesiastics! courts. The majority if the right rev. prelates were favourable to the principle of the bill. To* bill did not propose to do away with the powers of the judicial committee, but only directed certain ' nh recess to be mid, in casts of appeals on matters of faith ' or d.ctriae ACCIDENTS IN COAL NUNES. Lord WHARNCLIFFE, on presenting a petition from coal miners, preying for legislative interference for the better ventilation and regulation Memel mines, said that be was sorry to say th et upon looking at the accounts of the result of e vents of that unhappy description within the last few years, he found that there had been a emsiderable increase in the amount of death, produced by accidents in mines. The reports of all the committees peed in one thing, namely, that the accidents to which the petition referred arose from defective ventilation. lie did not think that he could go so far as to soy that he agreed wish the prayer of the petition to the full eat , nt. They prayed that the lepls. lature should appoint inspectors, who should compel eelf willed men to take steps for the diminution of these evils. Now he (Lord Whsramiffe) thought that by doing so they would be removiag the responsibility from the proprietors end throwing it on the i3spectors, instead of increasing the direct responsibility of the employers. He concluded by mpreseing a hope that the government would take some steps to reduce the amount of mortality in mines, and asking the government when the report of the last commission oa the subject would be hid on their lordships' table ? Earl ORANVILLE stated, in reply, that the report was in preparation, and would be laid on the table before„the end of the present session. Tie Earl of SIALMESBURY hoped that the inspection would be instituted, and that the inspectors would be made directors of the misers. INDEMNITY BILL. This bill went through committee, and the report ordered to be brought up te-morrow (this day). ADMINISTRATION OF CR IMINAL JUSTICE IMPROVEMENT BILL: — "... Lord CAMPBELL, in proposing the mend reading of this bill, said that on. of its objects was the improvement of the procedure in criminal courts. The chief object was to prevent the lamentable defeat of justice that not unite quently took place from mere technicalities, wholly uncon nected with the gnat or Innocence of the party accused. One of this great aeries a defeats of jostles erases from what was called a variance in the indictment, when the evidence did nut support the allegation contained in the indictment. Bitch as where it might be alleged that a man had stolen a cow, which should in the evidence turn out to be a heifer, or when kasha might be put in the indictment instead of sheep. He proposed by this bill to allow the judge the power of amending the indictment, according to the eel deuce that came before him, end that the trial should hs postponed, except in cams where it could be proceeded with, without depriving the prisoner of the opportunity of assert ing his innocence. There was another principle in volved in the bill, namely, that of allowing a more general allegation of the crime chaired. In ea es of murder, you were oblired to describe how the death was actually ceased, or the prisoner was acquitted. To avoid this danger, counts in an indictment were • multiplied. He proposed to make the law that the indictment should my that the prisoner, on such a day, and In such a place, killed and murdered the deceased. There were other enactments all in the same mode, and he hoped he bad said enough to be allowed to bring in the bill. The bill was brought in and laid on the table. Their lordship then adj Jurned at ten minutes to seven o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—MowDAY, MAT 6. The Senkunn took the chair at 4 o'clock. PUBLIC BUSINESS. PETITIONS PRESENTED. EDCCJIIOIII.—By Mr. DUNCAN, from minister sad olden of spotlit is Asicusebtre, against any alteration in t►e rerookiel system of education to Scotland. Mr. COB DEN, from Joseph Abbot Norntantoa, in favour of Mr. liaz's biU. _ - FACITOMT Lisova.—By Mr. BECKIITT, from Loads, @Pisa IM rola, arid shift spots is frotorios. INCILMAITID CIVACM ACCOMMODATION POl RONAN CA TMOLics IN INILAND.—By Mr. COCKBURN, from the limtan esthetics of Me city of Kilkmay, who stated tbs. Ms p.,pulatins of that plats was 24,000, of which number 19,000 were *NM estfrolios, and the remainder proverbial*. They stated, further, that there were la Knaus, two pro testant Mantles, Auntie, amp!' church stoommodatloa far tb. protestant por ion ut p,pulariaa; shams two wig any Marsh accoNlModaßOn for 4,000 of the ROSAMI oatholis inhabitants. They stated that the cathedral shush of Bt. Cann» @Odom bad a onitregation of mare than 200 per. sous, sad they frayed that it might be items sr to the Roman catholic*, for whom apiriwd alums it was admirably adapted. MitillOruLlTAN By Sir W. MOLESWORTIL ;rum tti. Chorea thsMartyr, Scutt wash, erreiast the bin. Col. THOMPSON, from Boratund. my, St. Luke's, from members of this Busk Irchancit, and from ialuthitasta of Saffron.leill„ la femur of extramural in- Ilwaissifr. Lord D. STUART, tree Nisylebose, pray* that the bill may be refined to a melee committee. Me. III'HINNON, from St. Mary-le-Strand and Paddlagies, in favour of the bill. Comm Conan Bit.L.—By Biz ;120gWORTII,' Ifs orland*th from Southwark ; Mr. G. HUDSON, I INTIM, of the bill. OCNAN Pansy Poer.—By Mr. COBD , from INIU, to favour of mesa pennyEtsm , FINANCIAL AND Iranian's aiffirolififfitone.—By Mr COBDBN, from timencake, t, nt dammial and puliameetary reform. AUSTRALIAN COLONIES GOVERNMENT BILL. Mr. B. DIN ISON inked whether her Majesty's govern ment had hilly neonsidered the dense in the bill the federal aesembly, which had been withdrawn for damns ? r. LABOUCRERE said thanks clams had been care ful reconsidered, sad th at the goverment were prepared, wine adhering to the principle upon which it had on gutsily been framed so to alter it as to give the smaller colonies enfilefeet weight in the federal easembly should they thtek proper to join it. Toe order ef the day for **consideration of the amend meets to this tell having been rend, Sir W. MOLES WORTH said, I beg to meve that Aids bill be recommitted. The house may remember that is committee I waived my right to oppose the sth and 11th clines, of this bill, which would continue to the Colonial office its present powers of interfering in the local affairs of the Australian colonies. I did so for the convenience of the committee, and on an agreement with the sable lord that on the bringing up of the report I should be entitled to raise the impirtant question involved in those clauses, and to take the seam of the boom on that question alone. Monitore now propose to recommit this bill. Ido so, lit, for the purpose of omitting from it all ciausss by which the Colonial-office would be empowered to interfere with the management of the local affairs of these colonies • 2nd, for the purpose of adding certain clause which I h ave submitted to the cm 'Winans of the house, and which would give to thee' enemies the suicontrolled management of their local affairs. The question for the home :now to decide is between Colonia!-Ace government and self government in the local affairs of these colonies. I must begin by observing that this bill raises two distinct questions. First, the quoin question what ought to be the form of the government of the Australian colonies ? That question was fully debated and decided in committee; and I do not presume to ask the house to reverse the decision of the committee. The other, and in my opinion the far mere important question, has not been discussed. It is the great gaieties of colonial polity, namely, what amount of sell go rernmest ought our colonies to poetess, and to what extent ought they to be subject to the conthiling power of the Colonial office ? Upon the answer which parliament shall ' fleshly give to ibis question, will depend the future consti tution of the colonial empire of Great Britain. And I be lieve, according as that constitution shall be well or 01 framed, our colonial empire will last long or speedily perish. The noble lord the Prime Minister, in his great speech on the introduction of this bill, distinctly admitted that the Australian eolonies ought to possess the greitest amount of self-government, that is not iaconsistent with the lategritfand well-being of the whole empire. It most be acknowledged that this bill would not fulfil the intentions of the noble lord in that respect, but would merely continue to the colonial office its resent powers of interfering in the local affairs of the colonies. For if it pass unamended there is not one single act which • colonial governor ore colonial parliament can do without the express or implied consent of the Colonial (file., nor one act which may not be reversed by the Colonial office I ask the house to amidst carefully what are to se the powers of the Colonial office under this bill. First,the Colonial office would possess the power of instructing every colonial governor as to depended in all colonial matters. The governor would ! be bound to obey his instructions, whether he liked them or not. For instance he would have to assent to a bill of which he disapproved, he would have to dissent from • bill of which be approved, if so commanded from the antipodes. Secondly, thh bill, in addition to empowering the 1 Colonial-offices to hotrod • colonial governor how he is to at in all colonial matters, would squire in many eases that • colonial governor should abstain altogether from acting until he have sent to the other aide of the globe and ascertained the pleasure of the Colonial-office ; for by this bill a colonial g , veracr would be absolutely re quired to reserve certain rotation bill., he would be able to reserve any colonial bill, and he would be bound to reserve every colonial bill which the Colonial-office might instruct him to reserve. These maned bills would have to be sent to Downing-etrest; there they would await the signification of the pleasure of the Colonial-Aloe, and if that pleasure shield not be signified within the coon of two years, then the colonial WU would be lost altogether. Thus a tall of great importance to • colony—affectina, perhaps very inju riously, SOON interests, end very beneficially other interests (say. for instance, • bill of the same importance to • colony as the corn law or Ten Hour Bill was to this country); such • bill, if it were reserved, would remain for one year at least, and might remain for three years, suspended over a colony, keeping a colony in • state of doubt and anxiesy, and engin- denag the wont feelings towards the Colonialoffice and ' the mother colony. Thirdly, this bill, in addition to giving to the Colonial!office absolute control over ail the acts of the colonial governor would empower the Colonial office ultimately to annul every act of a colonial governor , or of • colonial parliament. For by this bill the Colonial-office would have power to disallow any colonial act wi•hin two years after its arrival in Down. ing-street. Thes, after • colonial act has been in full opera tion for three years, to the universal satisfaction of the colo nists, it might be suddenly annulled by the arrival of • des patch from the Secretary of State for the colonies. Thus, strictly speaking, by this bill, the Colonial-office would con nate to have the power, in the first instance, of preventing anything from being done is a colony by a colonidgovernor, cr a colonial parliament; and it would continue to have power, in the second instance, of making null and void everything whico shall be don. by a colonial governor or a colonial parliament. These are, undoubtedly, vast powers. To illayrate the ignorance of the Colonial-office with regard to the condition of a c Away I might mention the constitution of New Zealand, framed one year and suspended the next. To illustrate the ignorance of the Colonialo tfice with regard to the tooling* of the inhabitants of • colony I might mention the proposal of the Colonialoaffics to deprive the electors of New South Wales of their franchise, and to give them the still-bona oonstitui an of New Zealand. To show to what extent the Colonial office is liable to be misinformed with regard to the affairs of a colony, I might mention that the Colonial-office ought to receive only year from each colony a statistical report of its condition ; that for several year. tomtit g the Colonial-office received reports from Ceylon, according to which the number of births, deaths, and mar riages in that colony was every year precisely the tams. Omitting entirely from my consideration the individual merits of the present functionaries of the Colonial-office, I must next observe that they are irresponsible for their ma- 1 nagernent of the local affairs of the c !lodes, for they are I responsible (and in theory only) to those who are themselves irresponsible, and who know little and cars little about the colonies. The Colonial-office is said to be responsible to as ; that responsibility every one knows to be a farce, for the majority of us take little or no interest in colonial mattes. But suppose it • reality ; to whom are we responsible for the management of the local affain of a colony ? To our con- stitionts ? Why that responsibility is a still greater farce, for they know lees admire lees about the colonies than we do. But suppose it a reality, to whom are our constituents responsible for the management of the local affairs of the (triodes ? To no one. Therefore, in ultimate analysis the Colonial-office is Irresponsible ; for, in the language of our coastitutios, the only meaning of the word responsibility is the responsibility of the rulers to the ruled. We distinguish between despotism and fres government by this test alone. 8o do our colonists. And therefore, according to strict con intonate' logic, they term the power of the Colonial office a despotic power, because for the manner in which exercised neither the Colonial-office, nor the British parliament, nor the people of Great Britain—the* is, none of those who rule —are responsible to the colonists who are ruled over. Now, irresponsible power is as distasteful to the colonists in a colony se it would be to Englishmen in England. For our 1 colonists pride themselves mown being Englishmen. They appeal to the old constitutional maxim, that an Englishman, go where he will, carries along with him as his birthright as much of law and liberty as the nature of things will bier. And, consequently, therefore they feel with regard to the powers of the Colonial-office as we should feel if our bills were to be reserved for the sanction of a functioaary at the other aids of the globe, if our ate of parliament were liable , to be disallowed at the pleasure of a secretary of state in Australia; and if our prime minister were bound to obey the instructions of the unknown and irresponsible officers of a department at the antipodes. Like all true Englishmen ' they loathe distant and irresponsible government ; when weak they murmur and obey ; as they wax stronger their murmurs become menaces ; their menaces, if unattended to, are followed by rebellion ; and rebellion leads to independ ence. In proof of all this I ask the homes to reflect on the history of oar plantations in America. Remember also how a few years ago Canada rebelled and obtained re sponsible goverment, and how the year before last the threats of New South Wales compelled the Colonial-office to abandon its projects. See how the menaces of the Cape forced the colonial office to submit and to bestow upon that colony representative government. Liston to the murmurs of New Zealand, as yet too weak to threaten. Thus is the eyes of the colonies our Colonial-office is a despotism tem pered by menaces sad rebellion., tyrannising over the weak, cringing to the powerful, univendly hated, and generally despised. A government hated and despised by its subjects is doomed to duttactioe, and our alma' empire will perish U our alonial system soctinue unreformed. Row saa this system be reformed ? I answer, by refining to ematisso to as Colonial-office the powers to which I have lest referred, tad by giving to the colonies the greatest amount of self-government that is not inconsistent with the Integrity sad well being of the British empire. If this be dens la the moaner in which I have prepaid the colonies will cease to be subjects of the Colonial-office, and will become integral portions of the British empire e and the prewoo sod all future colemies will be so many repetitions of Great Britain, united let one great British empire by croassoa allegiance to one naonarrh sod to one imperial par liament. Bow can this be don, ? Before I attempt to answer this question I most remind the harts that I moved last year that an humble addre.s should be presented to her Ma jeety prelim that her ?dainty would be graciously pleased to appose a engem...iota to inquire Into the administration of her Majesty's colonial poseamions, with a view to • reform of the altruist system of the British empire. I regret malt that the house refused its .ascent to that motion, and that I am now obliged, unaided by that commaion, to attempt to at mtg . the question is whkh I have referred. In the British empire the powers of government may be divided into the two el noes of imperial and tosiesial poen. By colnitiel powers I mean those powers which are required for the government of • colony in all matters affecting Its local or internal interests. By iiaperlal powers, I mean those powers which are re- THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY w..-- parllament, with the nemseary exception of imperial powers. The Bret Tandem is how to draw the If.. of dims/aide* be. twee. imperial sad colonial powers. I l LetStt he done in 'two different =main • either by env Yamaha powers, sad thee all other 'powers would be imps pewees; or by esamerating imperial powers and that all other powers weeitil be colonial powers. I popsies to adept the letter made, for it is evident that imperial power cosesen fewer topics, are therefore fewer in number, and i 5.... quently can be more easily enumerated than lotted I peop.ee, therefore, in the clause which I have stitt7t i c s i to the house, to enumerate Imperial powers, sad all other restriction. which ought to be pat upon the pewter of the ookteial legislatures . • and then with the exemptions so enu merated to give to the colonial parliament within their respective colonies all the powers possessed by the British parliament be the British islands. To prove that this would be done by the clauses or rather constitutes which I have procosed, I ask what are the chief powers of_governannt I will answer by quoting Blackstone to the effect that the Queen is the supreme head of the British empire ; is right of her regal dignity she poi- seems absolutely certain special powers called prerogatives. Among the prerogatives of the crown or connected with them are all the chief powers of goverment. Therefore: if I were to enumerate and consider the prerogatives of the in so doing I should have to consider all the chief poeerrn goveraMent both imperial and colonial. According to Bleak nose, the prerogatives of the crown respect either the natioa's intercourse with foreign nations, or Its own domestic affairs. With regard to foreign nations, the Queen has the prerogative of sending and receiving anibuseders, making treaties, pro claiming war, issuing reprisals, and granting ash condone. Then prerogatives are evidently imperial powers I therefore propose to reserve them to the crown, sad restrict the colonial parliaments from touching them. Neat in domestic affairs. First, the Queen is a constituent part of the supreme legislative opulent. Therefore the Gana has a negative on all new laws both imperial and colonial. It is, evident that the Queen csa only 'incise the veto by mesas of the officers of the crown. With regard to colonial laws; At present the Queen exercises the veto by the agency of the Colonial-Ace, and the Colonial.offles exercises it in some cases by the egeacy of the colonial covertly/. I prom*, beaus the veto oa colonial law is evidently a colonial power, and for other matrons which I have already stated, that the Coloniel•office aball cease to exercise the veto, that the crown shall vest it in the colonial governor, and that the colonial parliament shall be restricted from making any law affecting its exercise by the colonial governor. It has been stated that I propose to deprive the crown of the prerogative of the veto. Great stress has been laid upon that statement. It is, however, manifestly incor rect, as the low-officers of the crown will at once admit. For I only propose that certain clausts of 5 & Vitt., cap. 76, shall not be continued. Now the law-officers of the crown will admit that these dames did not create the prerogative of the veto on colonial lawn, and therefore they will acknowledge that by omitting ert repealing those clauses the crown will not be deprived of that prerogative, sad that the prerogative of the crown after the ',peal of those clauses will be precisely the same as it was before their enactment. Those clauses merely made it law tel for the Queen by Order in Council, that Is to say by order of the Colonial- iffiee, to negative colonial laws. I pro• pose to omit those clauses, and that in their stead parliament shall make it lawful for the Queen, by order of the colonial governor, to negative colonial laws. Therefore I merely propose tonansfer the exercise of the veto from the Colonial-office so the colonial governor; that is, I propose virtually to tran wen the Colonial office, with all its powers, to the colonies. TN seemed prerogative of the crows ea domestic affairs, to which Blackstone refers, is that in virtue of which the Qssen is first in military command in the empire, may raise fleets and armies, and build forts. These are evi dently imperial powers to be reserved to the crown, and not to be touched by the colonial parliaments. The Guam is the fountain of justice ; therefore the Queen has the right of determining nuns by means of her joists, of establishing courts of judicature, and of granting reprieves and pardons. I propose, in conformity with the principles I have laid down, to reserve to the Queen in council—lot, the power of determining all imperial cause., that is, all causes touching imperial powers; 2nd, the power of deti rmining all causes whatever en appeal ; and of establishing imperial courts in the colonies, with the same jerisdicuon as that of the Queen in Council. I __------ - propose tliat the power of granting reprieves and pardons should, as at present, be vested in the governor; and that the colonial parliamenta should be restricted from passing any law affecting there powers. I propose also that the colonial governors shall appoint the colonial judges; this power t be subject to any alteration to be made by the colonial parlia ments, with the restriction, however, that they shall not makellany judge's tenure of office different from the judge's tenure of office in this country,—that is, dependent on any thing but good behaviour,—nor diminish his salary durieg his continuance is office. 4. The Queen is the fountain of honour and office. I propose to reserve to the Queen the power of granting titles of honour and nobility, mad of appointing all imperial OH ears, and that the colonial parliament shall not touch these powers. I prop .s• that the colonial governors shill appoint all colonial officers, this power to be subject to any al•eration to be mad* by the colonial parliament, as the colonists pay their own officers. 5. The Queen is the arbiter of com merce, and therefore coins money. The power of coining would be reserved to the crown by my constitution. 6. The Queen is the head of the national church. I pro pose that there shall be no national church in the colonies, and consequently do not propose to reserve this prerogative. Lastly, I have to mention the fiscal prerogatives of the crown, and I need only mention the power of the crown to dispose of waste land& minerals, fines, forfeitures, royalties, and the revenue from the Post-ofti-e. I propose to reserve to the crown the power of regulating the transmission of letters by sea, as that is evidently an imperial power; I propose to vest in the colonial governor all the other fiscal prerogatives of the crown, to be exercised according to acts of the colonial parliaments, for these are undoubtedly colonial powers of great importance to the co lonists. I Lave now, following Blackstone, com pleted the enumeration of the prerogatives of the crown, and shown that, with certain exceptions, the colonial parliaments should be restricted from touching these prerogatives. The reserved prerogatives I have divided into two dames. Ono clue containing those prerogatives which are required for the management of the common concerns of the whole empire, such, for instance, as making treaties, commanding armies, itc., are imperial powers, I have, there fore, reserved their powers absolutely to the crown. As some or all them prerogative. may at times be required to be exercised in the colonies, I propose that the Queen may vest any of these prerogatives in the governor of the colony. Therefore, as far as them- prerogatives are concerned, the governor would be an imperial officer, and bound to obey instructions from the imperial government, and therefore, in my opinion, ought to be paid from the imperial treasury. The other class of prerogatives, containing those which are required for the managemsit of colonial affairs, are colonial powers such as the veto granting reprieves and pardons. These powers I propose to vest absolutely in the governor ; therefore, as far as these powers are concerned, the governor will be a local officer, and, consequently, should not be bound to obey instructions from the imperial government. It may be said that the union of imperial and colonial powers in the same individual is bad in theory. I acknowledge it is so. In theory it would be better, if possible, to separate them, to vest ell imperial (powers in imperial officers paid and appointed by the empire, and to vest all colonial powers in a colonial governor paid sad elected by the colony. Ido not, however, propose, to raise the question of an elective governor. For, as I have already said, I consider that the question of the form of government of those colonies has been settled in committee I will only observe that it is a fundamental doctrine of the constitution, that the crown, in the exercise of its prerogatives, should always act by ministers responsible to the representatives of the people. It the colonies the crown exercises its prerogatives by means of the governor; therefore, the governor should hs responsi ble for the exercise of imperial powers to the imperial par liament, and for the exercise of colonial powers to the colo nial parliament. Now, as there can be no doubt that a so leelal governor, or any ther officer of the crow. ' would be • removed. oa an address praying for his removal being pre sented from either house of the imperial pediment, I think that a colonial parliament ought to possess some power, causing the removal of a colonial governor by address to the crown. In order that such a power skinld net be exercised rashly, I propose, that. to insure removal, the address must be agreed to by two-thirds of the whole number of numbers of the scionlal parliament. In enumerating and determining the prerogatives of the crown in the colonies and reetriming the colonial parlia ments from passing any law affecting those prerogatives, I have stated what are the chief restrictions which I propose to put on the power of the colonial puliaments. The other restrictions which I propose are supplemental to those which I have enumerated. They ere required for the lune purposes of maintaining the supremacy of the crown, and the unity of the empire both at home and abroad, and are ante thod to prevent the colonial parliament—l. From peeping any law affecting the dignity of the crown or the allegiance of subjects. 2. From interfer ' ing with the foreign relations of the empire, and the laws which regulate those relations both in peace end war. 3rd. From interfering with the command of the general forme of the empire. 4th. From conferring any exclusive privilege on any portion of the subjects of the empire. sth. From violating certain fundamental prin. ciples of British policy, which I hold to be sacred; for instance, that there shall be no slavery in the Bri tish dominions. I have now stated in panel terms the legal restrictions which I propose to put on the powers of the colonial parliament. They will be found in detail in the clauses which I have submitted to the consideration of the house, I propose there fore that, with the exceptions which I have mentioned, the colonial parliaments &hall have the same power of making laws within their respective colonies, as the parliament of Orsat Britain has within the realm of Great Britain. Now, it might so happen that a colonial parliament should exceed its powers, and maks an enactment in contravention of the restrictions which had been imposed up ot it. I propose to de clare that such an enactment shall he invalid ; and to create a supreme court which shall determine questions relative to the validity of a colonial law. I propose, (as in fact I have already done) that her Majecty in council shall be the supreme wort, and shall have both original and appellate ju- EVENING, MAY 7, 1850. In oil wee asking wider • colonial *institution (as le whoa the !solidity et a salads' law shall be galled tprilli p go mks mg ported se* Jorisdietiss ony are le, the entree et the emleft. Is fact, I eopy the Jadistal system eel die sales of A roisters of the Milted States on sitalias smatters. beteditory wseeenhy &Geld pluses the prom siveesndat. *kb the enseptiss of that of Ilsulswirittli • osstral tepelhis persasso. It it posespeilne, the eop• would *mese to be one body politic ; if it sob- N, possess nom the casein w il l be dims the wait of sellvewersiseissr sad on tin Nadia when Ode Imam' is America. 4 Me etellM• I *epos that the Colonial-offies .hallOMßtr i tsslt.a Igith the management of the local Wain d Oise .Ladle. aid that they shall possess the greatest amount of sail that J. not inentsiereat with the malty and wall M the British empire., With this obis.' fa view, I =Mit le the asmsidsregjon of the house the manures to which 1 have nfened. I do so with diffi dence as to the details of those /111•11•11 TIPS, but with con fidence that they an founded upon the true prinsdpies of 0010111111 pokey. (Cheers.) I therefore ask the house to re• commit this bill, for the purpose of taking the clauses iota consideration, with the view of giving to the colonies real and efficient selbgeverameat. (Load sheen.) Mr. LABOIJCHBBE would Welly state reasons which be:hoped would be sufficient to induce the house sot to agree to the motion of the hon. baronet to recommit the hill. The question the hon. goads's= had brought forward was not new to the house, it having be brought forward on a previous occasion. lie went quite as far as the hon. baronet in contending that it was for the interest of the u other country, as well as the colonise, that the manage ment of their local woven should be left as much as pee sib's to the colonies themselves, and that the interference of the imperial government should be confined as much es pos sible to imperial questions. But his objection to the propo• siting of the hon. baronet was, that be felt convinced that the scheme propounded and the machinery by which it was pror-sed to carry it out would so far from effecting the object in view, introduce nothing but confusion and discontent throughout our colonial empire. (Hear.) The hon. gentlemen undertook in an act of parliament to define the prerogative of the crown, and to define and limit and separate all ques. tions of an imperial from those of a local nature. Re pro hit iced the colonies from interfering with the prerogatives of the crown, defining and limiting them to 18 in number, and prohibitleg also their dealing with questions involving imps rial interests, which be also made 18 in attune, but with all other questions the hon. gentleman would give to the colo nies full power to deal. Bet it was impossible to define with aay such precision those interests which were imperial from those which were not, and still less was it possible to define and to number the preregativss of the crown in the manner proposed. The hon. baronet had quoted Bisekstore as to the prerogatives of the crown, but he (Mr. Libouchere) should be surprised to hear any lawyer say that Blackstone, or any other authority on such questions ' had limited and defined the prerogatives of the crown as the hon. baronet hat dono. Now with regard to the question of the prero gatives of the crown, looking at the subject not with the critical eye of a lawyer but as a layman, he could discover at the first ' glance many omissions in the hon. baronet's list. For instance the whole question of martial law was left out—a matter which came peculiarly within the province of the prerogatives of the crown should the necessity for proclaiming it ever arise. Again no mention was made of escheats—and according to the hon. Inntleman'e plan if a man were to die in any of the colonies intestate and without kin there would be no means of dealing with his effects. (Hear, bear.) Tie; were many other subjects upon which the question of prero gative would arise which the hon. gentlemen's list dirt not include. to which he would not stop to advert, but he be lieved fi rmly that no constitutional lawyer would allow that it was safe to limit and define the prerogatives of tie crown as the hon. gentleman proposed to do. He did not go with the hon. gentleman in regard to the smooth and simple' manner in which he had stated hie plan would work as to the matter or leyultioa. Question, would immediati ly arise with regard to the iiinits of jurisdiction of the colonial and of the imperial parliament. These questions according to that plan would be referred to the judicial committee of the privy council, and arguing from the analogy of use United States the honourable baronet sup posed this would give satisfaction to the colonies. Now he greatly doubted that. He believed the result of such a plan as the bon. boronet bad suggested would give rise to needless litigation ; that it would occasion nice points of law to be argued in Westminster, and that the conse quences would be, confusion and delay, and much greater discontent than existed under the system at present in ope ration. (Hear.) The hon. baronet was altogether mistaken in the analogy he had drawn between the United States and the English colonies. There was no similarity in the two ease.. He (Mr. Labouchere) believed that the plan new proposed had been asked for or dreamt of by any British colony; and, therefore, he hoped the house would not ogres to the motion of the hon. baronet for the recom mittal of the bill. (Hear.) Mr. ADDEItLEY urged that se we had consented to give Australia a constitution, we ought to render the gilt c rin glets by enabling the Australians to manage their local arra rs for themselves. lie concluded amidst cries of " ll.vide." sir G GREY said that, from the disposition the hr.use had evinced to divide, it was not likely that he was about to enter on the wide field of discumion to which the last speech invited. The simple question before the house was, that the bill be now recommitted. The clauses proposed to define imperial colonial questions, to give to the colonial legislature a powtr of drating with colonial questions, and to reserve to the Queen in council the right of exercising certain privileges. Now, the hon. gentleman who had spoken lest appeared to misapprehend the argument of his right hen. friend (Mr. Labouchere). He stated that the go vernment admit ed the principle of leaving the colonists to dial with local question., and he seemed to think there was street inconsistency in admitting that principle and opposing these clauses. But the clauses showed the impracticability of put• ting in an act of puliament such a definition of imperial and local questions as was now proposed; for thrre was saki me veguehess and uncertainty in Chet definition. Besides, the power proposed to be given to the council could cot be safely exercised because it would involve perpetual questions tit doubt. lie thought with his right hon friend (Mr. Laboe chere) that this question lay within a very narrow compess— that it did not, therefore, require a speech of half an hour'e duration in reply : and he hoped that, under the circum stances, the house would net consent to give such a defini tion of powers as would neither be clear nor practical. (Hear, hear ) Mr. GLADSTONE thought it desirable to rid thi country from responsibility respecting matters over which we could sot exercise a serviceable control. He thought the question should be minutely examined by per sons of the highest legal acumen, in order to see whether we might not make a strict enumeration of the cases in which we ought to interfere, se as to leave to the colony an un , limited discretion in all the rest, and thereby get rid of • great por.ion of the machinery of our administrative depart ment which bad been of necessity worked in this country in a way that caused the most painful divisions. The house then divided, when then appeared, For Sir W. Moleswortb'e motion Against it Mr. GLADSTONE then roes to bring forward the lion of which he had given eotice, consisting of a clause and several provisos on the framing and construction of which he prayed for a lenient consideration by the law officers of the crown, and the subject of which he much regretted her Ma jesty's goy. rnment had not thought proper to include in the bill. The clause he wished to propose enabled them to give the sanction of parliament to the proceedings of the members of the church in Australia upon a looting of voluntary and private compact, It was as follows: And whereas doubts hare existed ss to the right@ and privileges of the bishops, clergy, and other members of the United Church of Eng land and Ireland, in regard to Me management of the internal affairs thereof in the said Weak* be it matted, that it shall be lawful for the bishop or bishops of say diocese, er Ma sters. in the said colonies, or in any colony which her Majesty shall, by order in council, declare to be joined to them for the purposes neat bweinalter described, and the clergy and lay permos, neteg declared members of the church of England, or being otherwise in communion with him or them respec tively, to meet together from time to time, and, at such meeting, by mutual cement, or by a majority of voices of the said clergy and laity, severally and respectively, with the assent of the said bishop, or of a majorityof th e said bishops, if more than one, to make all such regulation s as maybe necessary for the better conduct of their ecclesiastical affairs, and fur the holding of meetings for the sad purpose thereafter. The house ought well to understand that the system of an established religion did not prevail in those colonies for soy useful, intelligible, or rational purpose ; but that it it prevailed at all it was for no ether purpose than that of en cumbrance and vexation, of impediment to law and order, and of disturbance to the IC i de and feelings of men by in troducing confusion where pule* and harmony ought to pre vail. He, therefore, called upon the house not to take upon itself the responsibility of saying what the system of church discipline should be in Australia, but simply to untie the hands of those of our fellow-subjects in that colot,y who were members of the same religion as by law established in' . this country, who had carried the principles of that religion into those distant lands, bat who were divested 1 of every privilege which we were by law er - titled to, and debarred of every advantage con (erred by our civic rights and freedom as Englishmen. The right hon. gentleman then read and explained the following provisos : Provided always, that It shall not be lawful to impose or Inflict, by any snob regulation, any temporal or pecuniary penalty or disability other than smeh as may attach to the avoidance of any once or bene fice held Ja the said church. --- Prodded also, that no such regulation rail be binding on any per ms or preens other than the said bishop no bishops, and the clergy and the lay pergola within the said colonies who an or may be declared member of the church of England, or otherwise la communion with him or them respectively. Pnvided also, that any Bush regulation, touching the existing re lation of the said Whops, clergy, and others, to the OletrOpolitaa ere of Canterbury, shall be forthwith transmitted by the residing bishop, or Ws deputy, to the archhe of the wild see, and shall be object to dleallowance by the sold hish under his hand and seal, at any time Elitist II months from the paring et the said verm illion, or within six molar from the ressipt thereof by the sa.d &refilled), bat not afterwards. Provided also, that It shell not be onspetent to the said bishops, clergy, and lay persons. or any of than, to pas say verdaiiln sleeting the rights of the crown in the nosalaat of Whom, with out the consent of her Majesty's grillage Seetetat7 of State tar the (blank. _ lied Ids; that ao such regulation made ea aforwald stun au thorise the huhop of any diocese to confirm or conmerate, or to or. data, limme, or l tate, say nuns to say see, or to any peened Merge or other selecotsai a delriMl oaks, esoept upon such parsons harlot Immediately before taken the mils of allegiamo to her Ma jesty, and basing Ukewise =bombed the articled of the united Church ftertand ond 'rebind, sad declarod unfeigned area and con sent to the Hook of QWWI3OII Prayer. It should be borne iu mind that they were not dealing with the church so it existed generally) in the cohmier, to rte's the rtsto of the church in one e don y rtiffer..d as touch from that of another colony as the state of the chur c h in en of tho colonks differed from what it was at home. In the West Indies it was in the condition of a quasi establishment. In our North American colonies, it was split by differences, and so on. VI hat they had to look to was the religion, con- , v .. , N , P. rilfioa of our Australian eolonies; end it was with reference to this ifondillos that he made this motion. Religious equally was the( ground: en which he did so. In inettalia.the churl* was salaried. The sums which the stabs; allowedlor the milldam/mu of religions were divided gayly and a:lely according to the respective 'seniors of the Mayon religions communities. They were sums which bellmesed to no periods: beet, but were open alike to all prellessioos included in the colony. Now it was not jest that the mentla.rs of one of these professions should be left lender disabilities that did not affect the others. It wens cue et great urgency, because they could not venture to I play pranks with the church in her present condition—they could not afford to exhibit any longer teat conteapteous neglect of her interests which was sure to proclaim a great practical grievance; and • great practical gri did *gist in the state of the church in our eolontes. First with regard to the endowment of churches in New South Wales, Van Diemen's Land, South Australia, and Western Anetralia. The ore of Western Australia was in sigaticant. In that of Southern Australia, he believed, there was no eadoweent, and the gist of the oar , lay in New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land 1 bat as the two systems that prevailed in these colonies were so near akin, he would take them se if they were the seem The pre visions of the law respecting endowment were these. When a aortal* number of admitted persons, declaring themselves to belong to a chrlatian communion, assembled to become a congregation, and subscribed a certain amount, then the state should step in, and aid them by a correspond ing contribution. It was next provided that no salary should be paid to any clergyman unless appointed according to the usages of the religion of the congregation so assem bling. The third provision was, that it should be in tie power of the executive government to make inquiry into the conduct of sty clergyman so appointed, and to discontinue payment of his salary if found that he was not engaged and occupied as agreed on. Such was the sort of stipendiary es tablishment that existed in the colonies. It took no cog nisance of one church more than another, excepting that the three churches of England, Scotland, and Rome were mentioned by name as constituting nearly the whole of the population. The co.onial law was just and equal in this respect, that it did not interfere witn any religion end wouid not pay • stipend to any clergyman until confirmed by the law. There was, however, this difference in their condition, but it was one with which he did not wish to interfere, and of which he did not complain, _namely, that the appointments themselves in the church of England lay with the governor respecting that church alone. There was a right of nominal transfer of ecclesiastical law from this country to our colony, but a more complete delu'ion and imposture than that transfer it would be difficult to conceive. He did not believe there was a single point of ecclesiastical law in England except ono of which we had the power to enforce the observance in Australia. Waatever was dor.e there was done by the good will, sense of propriety and good feeling of the parties. We found our own law respe c ti ng church discipline so defective that we had to amend it lately by an act of Parliament ; but that act was of no force in the colony. Blackstone in discussing the application of the principle to a colony pointed out that the jurisdiction of ecclesiastical courts from the nature of the case could net be held applicable to a colony. The machinery by which the law wee to be applied was therefore swept away. Then we had endeavoured to come in with some supplementary provision. We sent rut bishops, with power to Itlolllloll witnesses and administer oaths, and to act without restraint, except on an appeal to the Archbishop of Canterbury. It would actually be found that, under a succession of patents, her Majesty had committed a succession of acts of illegalit by confernng powers wirch only required to be objec•ed to in order to be condemns'. A zealous prelate in Van Die mob's Land, wishing to have a legalised system awarded to the colony, desired the establishment of consistorial courts. The members of other denominations objected. The matter was brought before the law officers of the crown, and they found it was their duty to declare that her Majesty's own act was illegal. Therefore these powers were perfectly null and valueless, as was on the other hand the corrective of these powers, the appeal to the Archbishop of Canterbury. What was the position of the bishop in these colo. nies ? He would begin with him, not only because he was the first entitled to consideration, but because his position was the best_ The bishop had a very large power in his hands. But he had not the kind of power he ought to have. If he took the executive power of Russia, which was not limited at all, and took the e xecutive power of this country, which was limited, he found that the executive power of this country was greater than that of Russia. And if they took the bishop and placed him under limitations, he would have really more power. He had not the meat aof doing good, whereas on the other hand he had the power of ibffict ing great evils. The bishop had co power to do justice as a judge, he had no power to call witnesses to give evidence of misconduct. If he were to call witnesses before him, and they were willing to come, be apprehended there would be the greatest fear of those witnesses that they would be open to an action for libel, for there would be nothing whatever to prevent the clergymen accused from &Meg back on the general laws of his country with regard to any statement respecting his character. And though the cliarges alleged might be true, yet the wienetses might be open to an action for defamation for the charges that th.y tussle. Still the bishop had great power. No clergyman could officiate is the colony without the license of the bishop, and it was entirely within the breast of the bishop to issue that license or to re• yoke it. And he could refuse to render any account to any human being of his reasons for refusing to issue, or for revoking when issued. That was the arbitrary power, and the only power, subsisting in the church in the Australian colonies. And the revs king of the license carried with it the loos of the stipend. Now, the church in Van Diemen's Land, and he thought also in New Son h Wales, are of three climes, but there was no material diffe rence between them as far as this owe was concerned. There were the old colonial chaplains, there were the chap !sins who had been appointed under the preterit church acts ; and, lastly, there were the missionary clergy, who had been sent out by the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel, and who were likewi.e subject to the absolute control of the bishop. But on all these substantialy the law operated alike. They talked of the transference of English ecclesiastical law, but the English ecclesiastical law recognised the beetefint of a clergyman as nis (Toehold. But in the colonies there was absolutely no such thing. There was a gentleman of the name of Wigmore, whose licenco was suspended by the bishop, whether rightly or wrongly it was not necessary now to inquire : it was suspended by the bishop on the grour d of repeated insolvenciee, at d diver s other features in his conduct which the bishop conceived to be in consistent with his duties. This gentleman went to the Supreme Court ins Van Diemen's Land to obtain a rule nisi. And perhaps he should be told that that court had eeelesiastical jurisdiction; but that was not so ; it had jurisdiction for temporary purp7ses only. He went to this court to obtain a rule nisi for the Bishop of Van.Diemen's Land to show cause why he had revoked his license. The court refused to grant the rule, and declared themselves totally incompetent to interfere, on the simple ground that the bishop hal a right I to grant a license sic so/o, and to revoke it sic role. I And what was the position of the bishop ? The bishop fout.el that if he observed the forms of justice he might invclve himself in great difficulties. It he rave a publi hearing he might ho liable himself in a hundred ways to actions on civil grouods, and the witnesses would be liktwise subject to actions. And so there was a large and an exceptional power in the hands of the bishop, who could not follow the ordinary li forms of justice lest he himself should be called over the coals in the Supreme Court for what he did. But let them pus by the case of the delinquent clergyman, and assume the ease of an oppressed clergyman. What was he to do? Was he to appeal to the Archbishop of Canterbury ? A man with a salary of 2001. ayear was no: in a condition to undertake a voyage home to prefer an appeal to the Archbishop of Canterbury He did not think there was any means by which any clergy man, who was oppressed by his bishop, could have any legal redress. Then, what was the condition:of the laity ? The laity were just in the same condition ; they had no resort for redress whatever. Now be held tlaaqhe was strictly correct in making this application to parliament, and in no other quarter. Remade it at this time, because they now professed to be deal ing for the last time with the local affair, of the Australian colonies. This was a subject strictly for local legislation. (Hear, hear.) He asked them to give the power to men who had shown themselves com petent to use it. If they could show him that they had at this moment • superior system, he was only speaking of the internal condition of the English church ; if they could show him that it was agree able to the principles of religious truth to the principles of order, that it world give secu r ity t o right and redress to wrong, then he granted them that his proposition fell to the ground. If they could show him that there was a better mode of attaining his end he was willing to hear it; but do nut let them by assumed objections, by raising imaginary fears, by urging the state of c h urc h law at home, throw over a plan which he placed before them in great confi dence, and with equal coolidence in every ground whe ther be was to consider them as pledged by their habits and dispositions to the assertion of principles of order, or whether he was to consider them as pledged by their love of the principles of freedom. (Cheer. ) The clause having been road by the clerk at the table, Mr. GLADSTONE said he wished to offer one word in explanation. He thought it would be moat convenient to the house, as those provisoes would he easily settled, each relating to a separate enactment, if the enacting put were put separately, and then the remainder might he separated into clauses, by simply putting the words " And b e it en acted" before each. He also wished to stare, with regard to the words " declared member of the church of England," that he had introduced them with reference to the state of law in the colonies, there being local aces under which the members of the church of England were required to declare themselves such. Mr. LABOUCURRE said it was upon no small points of difference, still less upon any legal difficulty, that he should advies the house not to consent to the proposition of the right hon. gentleman ; hat because he strongly objected to toe very principle of that:proposition. Whatever its inten tions, the effect would be to constitute an eccleeiastical synod In these colonies, with the power of making laws hue/pectic(' of the colonial legislatures of the imperial parliament, which laws would be oblige - my upon the member. of the church of England within the colonies. (lieu, hear.) A proposal so serious ought to be entertained as a separate measure, and gravely and deliberately considered, and not engrafted upon • bill professing very different objects, and dealing with entirely different matters. As t 3 the constitution of the proposed synod, the principle was aoknowledged that laymen might be members ; and the crown was to have the power of rejecting or confined' g its canons. lle did not un derstand whether this synod was to co mist of • single body —bithaps, clergy, and laity, all sitting end discussing these iliemion% together, or whether there were to he two or mor e nodies, the clergy sitticg sep ly from the laity. If it was to be one assembly, composed et all the members of the church of England, he, as • member of that church, should very much object to questions of the kind proposed being discussed and decided by a tumultuary assemblage of that description, and he should very muc h doubt wh et er that dth w is o e u l id uew te edr e n i d nq to anuti t h il e iocin w ie g e l no f t e fia r e in o pag s i r po • ihistuedhoutwroc which in t h e rtaohretge ought in n : i tuts to . n A b li 1 1 an act with which it had no necessary eonnexi .n. gi e objection to the plan was a fundamental one; he objected to laws being made by any ether body b ut the I local legislatures or the imperial parliament; end he ob. jetted altogether to these laws or regulations being made b e a body which was neither one nor the o th er , b ut an ecclesi • medal synod composed on principle. which he bilieved were altogether unknown in the history of Christendom ; for he did not believe that such a synod had ever been heard or thought of before. The policy of establishing tech siestieslc.u rte was matter of extreme doubt; and tbe grievances which a ffeeted the members of the church of England might be remedied I without them, by the action of the local legislatures them selves. lie had been a little alarmed to hear from such a n authority as the right hon. gentleman the doctrine which he had propounded in an earlier pert of the evening, when he had declared himself ready to vote fora clause Ix the good operation of which he could not answer, merely bemuse 114 thought it a subj , ct that required I , egioe., don. That would be a most dangerous principl- for the house to adopt ea matters of this amporfence. But his objections were lea to the details than to the principle of the measure itself. To attempt to estab lish an these colonies a body of this hied, cell it an eeclesiar tical synod, or whatever they chose, with p ower t o make regulations having the effect of law over members of the church of England, so far from doing any good to the church, increasing religious principler, of enlarging its sphere of usefulness in the colonies, would, on the contrary, excite the greatest ditap probation; the colonial legislatures would feel that suhjent s which properly belonged to them were withdrawn from their investigation and decision ; and a tribunal would h e established which would be fraught with inconvenience, and would give rise to injurious consequences to the church itself. Mr. B. HOPE supported the motion, and argued that the members of all other denominations, the Wesleyan., th e preehyterians, and the Roman Catholics, were able to prevails for the administration of their req. c• ive ecclesiastical :dein, then why not the established church ? Mr. C. ANSTEY was convinced that the chnrch eased self-contained powers amply sufficient to secure the due sdministration of her affairs, spiritual as well lA t-at pored, and therefore opposed any legislative interfere-ac e with, nr addition to, thou powers. A division was here called for, and the gallery cleared ; but, after • briet exclusion, strangers were re-admitted, aed the debate was continued Ay Mr P. WOOD, who dwelt upon the high and mud duties devolving lino* the church, the strength it yie Med to the state, and the education it undertook to afford to the people. lie wished that the state in return should cntri bute all possible aid to the church, and then (ore eupported the motion. Mr. ROEBUCK said the proposition, under an ap. pearance somewhat mysterious, was really en UZI portant one. They had to deal with what the proposition called the united aurches of England cud Ireland in the colonies. Every person uneenteod what was meant by the united church of England awl Ire land. It was subject to certain laws, and *need e.rtain high privileges and powers in this country. (Hear, le ar.) But there was a party in the country who wished to deal with that church in a way that they (the house) "toed not permit. (Hear, hear) What did that party wish? ?hey wished to have • church, called the United Church cf Erg. land and Ireland, and to have that church above the law. (Hear, bear.) They wished to have a convocatien 'infra by the side of parliament. (Hear, hear) They Lad put that down heretofore, and they did not Intend it should ver be revived, even by a side wind in the colonies. They ware not ' to be mystified out of their common senses in reference to the proposition before them. (Hear, hi ar.) And u regarded that proposition, he asked did any man in his common teems expect that it should be attended to, and that a c evocation should be there sitting by the side of the British parliament? (Hear, hear.) But he believed there were mu so ic!rusted, so thoroughly demented en church matters, that ttey wished such • thing possible. (Hear, hear.) Now what were their reason,? He believed they were two ia number. ;Hers the hen. member read the resolutions of Mr. G:aehione, which appear in the speech of that right hon. gentl man, and then continued.] Now be ask. d hon. gentlemen to say whether they intended by this course to elevate :her r. w church to the position enjoyed by members of the disseniing communities? Indeed he had been told by one hon. gond. mss that he would be content to be pieced on a similar footing with the jua.pers. (Laughter.) Yes, that had been told him in that house. Wu it en? ( " Hear, hear," und laugh Were the members of the United Church of England and Ireland in the colony of Van Diemen's Land willing to di vest thems Ives of all the characteristics of member, of that church, and to place themselves on an equality with the jumpers ? (Hear, hear, and • cry of '• Yes.' ) Oh, 'he hon. member fur Oxford cried " Y.s." (Laughter.) Now let him see how matters stood. First, they would have to strike out the name " United Church of England and In land." Then they became persons profilers anything they pleased, and consequently could not be regarded as h eir s of that anent church. (Hear, hear.)They should be regarded simply as a body of dissenters meeting together for certain religious purposes, and therefore he was at • loss to know why parliament should enact anything at al: in re ' Terence to them. (Hear, hear.) They were going to create a legislature which would have power over weaker sects. The only body of churchmen with whom they could i aye eympathy was that body recognised by the united chur hes of Eagland and Ireland. (lieu, hear.) Let them once establish that which the resolutions of the right hon. gentle man sought. and there would he en end of their uci•ed churches of England and I reland,whilst there woul I also be, epeely attainment of the separadon of church an i etc:. (Hear.) He found the high church party—those who w• re supereminently and peculiarly the church party, wro car ri•cl on • warfare in reference to certain fantastic cerem all of • sudden coming forward and crying out f.r a et .te of medievel excellence. Yet, what was their a of it ? Why they appealed to America; but what dsel "ley find there: no church establishment whatever. e lls sr, hear.) An ulna toleratl'n of and freedom to ail (Hear, heat.) lie had fought the question too ceten in that hou.e, not to know there were constant yearly par ments for the purposes of the church of Beg I and he could not understand why a France f that church should be made separate and iedepe....lee: of the united churches of England and Ireland. yet. de riving support from that Rowe, which it ought not, as en ac• dependent community, though connected in rase and c'.:,- racteristics with the English church. He denied that name and character ; and if asked what he believed the C)Mall pity to be, be would reply an independent commLnity of religionists ; and hence there was no necessity for a pros.s,. (Hear, hear.) First, as an independent body, they needed not the support, by proposition, of that house; and rue cause, like the jumpers, they wished to be affected by stru:lar legislation. (Laughter.) How was the colony at Van Deemen's Lend to deal with that bendy ? He had been t there were three religious bodies recognised, tLe ctxrab of Rome, tler church of England, and the church of S.:- land; but the present sect did not come under tither re:-.;.- ous category. (Hear, hear.) However, there were of tee sect certain fantastic religionise who wished to fee con sidered somethieg pa-euliar in themselves, who aspired to the characteristics of an ancient community, while% at the same time, claiming all the lib - rty of the moot modern religious commuiiity. (Hear, hear.) But he k Mr. Roe buck) could tell them they would be one thins or the other. (Hear, hear ) They belonged to the church of England, or they did not. (Hear, hear.) If they belonged to the church cf England, they should submit to its ordinances. Hear, hear ) If net, let them call them selves dissenter,, and he (Mr. Roebuck) would be the first to demand protection, freedom, and liber y for them, and to help them to anything else they might die, however. ridiculous. Mr. R. PALMER treated the opposition to the motion u an attack upon the establishment. He enlarged upon the importance and dignity of the established church, and gave twiny historical details of the convocation anti cher organic institutions, by aid of which the spiritual powers assigned to that church had been at various times promulgated slid main tained. Convocations had, from a variety of cause., become obsolete in England, but the state of many of our c..lonies very urgently demanded the establishment of those eccle siastical assem►lies. Sir 0. GREY said he had certainly not anticipated th..! the 1113106 involved a discussion on the important question of the relations which existed between the Established Church and the State. (Hear, hear.) 110 did not concur in the wish of the honoural , :e and learned member for Sheffield to aee a dieunion between church and state—(shears)—but anxious ao he via to see the church an instrument of extended And lucre ling usefulness amongst all classes of the ezminunity, be could not help on that occasion, as the subject had peen advert"' to, expressing his deep regret at the course which had been recently takea by some members of that church—(; ,4l d cheers)—a course which had led to proceedings tending to exhibit the church in a state of disunion. thereby to diminish its efficiency and usefulness. t" hear," and cheers.) Like the hon. and leased gentleman (Mr. Roebuck), he confessed that be had some difficulty in understanding the motion. (Laeghter.) He appeure 3 • however, to be staking on behalf of one sommunion privi leges and powers which belonged to no other =union. Netwithstanding the right hon. pp sideman 'a disavowal, he must say that 'lto thought he cut ask for the clergy and bishops in the colonies autheriy (toe parliament to constitute a legislative body, with power . to make regulations which m ou ld b e bi n di ng n ot only des roe.) conscieslie, but also in the colonial courts of law. Ile was confirmed in that opinion by the provisos of which he hail given notice al qualifications of his motion. There no. 'li' proviso that in a certain ease the royal prerogative should not be infringed, implying that in all the ca,er not 'scented it aught be infringed. (hear, hear ) Again, the dispensation of patronage was to be rulleet to the allowance, not of the crown, hut of the Arehbisoop of Canterbury. In fact, more extensive legislative powers than those proposed he (Sir O. Orgy) could hardly conceiv e. and he did n o t k now h ow the right hon. gentleman con./ disavow the intention of investing this body with !cordate.e authority, when it was to be independent on the or hand of the crown, and on the other of the colonial legislature. (Hest.) Either the motion involved the dangerous pri , of conferring extensive powers on one particular rc h gt us community in the colony, contrary to the spirit of front legislation with regard to it, or the tight 1 ". gentleman was invoking the aid of parliament .. to do that whi c h Lhasa parties could do Talon:at i.e• It had been hinted that there was souse special dis ‘ bdite. If there were any disability, let the parties toner ell to placed on an equal footing with colter communions., t t not parliaroent give them any spirt il and peculate privileges ender the specious pretence of relieving them from a 410 ability. (Hear, hear.) Mr. ADDERLEY briefly controverted the assumptoe that the privileges to be accorded to the established church l c quirts' for the goversoest of the British *spire, so coo rispa body ow all soden altosting its sone* sad Orr isterests...- • ow, I se I os • y bit" ) . 4 ‘' t . •• . sr melt o 'I." ...... pearly) ti • So , r . ropes to, .• •I . C' those • •1 4 • " is :!) • 4_edWal pros Sri • the a ; ex width sea be The bomb Ted to '., • . with *sir elm so *tabby of mall tit •.- . 6 444 . Miller Wilit fib find dram. the 'astal Aimee of. Ix robotism. or with their dollies Si mislaid. of Pin would tiro British empire. Therefore I suistais4 4 the a s s :kinseer tins to the local oirausetsaose of • solosy will of tht exist- tested at moo of stiolosial pol ilis solielir at omht first mom to power ponrsiwi with filidnof the . IWob To provost t