The Press. — London, England, 1858-12-11 00:00:00

THE AGRICULTURAL CONSTITUENCIES • law unions and in our municipal governments, with some needless restrictions with regard to the municipal frail. chide which I would not introduce into our parliamentary franc hi s e. The more public opinion is freely and honestly rapre ssed, the more distinctly will a Government engaged i n preparing a Reform Bill be able to discover which is the point likely to be most satisfactory to the public. I consider these differences of opinion on the suffrage as of trifling importance when compared with the question of the distribution of seats and members. This is the vital point in the coming bill, and unless it be well watched, you m ay get any amount of suffrage, and yet find after all that you have lost the substance and are playing merely with the shadow of popular representation.—l am, very truly yours, JOHN BRIGHT. Mr. James Robertson. AND REFORM. Ma. W. MILES, M.P, one of the members for the eastern division of the county of Somerset, at a dinner of the Bruton Agricultural Society, made some observations on the coming Reform Bill, especially referring to the agricultural constituencies. He said he was against the ballot and against universal suffrage. But the question was, if the people bad become ripe for the suffrage, might it not be bestowed upon those who did not at present possess it ? Doubtless many of them had read a speech that had been much spoken of which was recently delivered by his hon. friend Mr. Newdegate. It showed the way in which the seats in Parliament were distri buted, how the manufacturing and commercial classes were represented, and also how the agricul tural classes were represented. To those who had taken the trouble to read that speech it must be apparent that the agricultural members were in a very small minority, while at the same time they represented much larger constituencies and a much greater amount of population than the members for other classes. If this were the case, there could be no doubt whatever that in any redistribution of the constituencies—and there must be such a redistri bution in a Reform Bill—the claims of those who had the least representation must be taken into account, and the number of representatives of the agricultural interest must be increased. Now, Mr. Bright wished it to be quite another way; be wished for 101. voters, or even lower than that, to have the election of the members ; but if this were allowed the agriculturists instead of gaining would lose. If they now, in this free country, enjoyed the privileges of Englishmen, they would then stand a chance of losing those privileges in the most complete way imaginable, for the towns would return nearly all the members, and the agricultural interest would be in so small a minority that it would be very inadequately represented. He hoped, therefore, that the electors would see that the constituencies should be so amended, and the members so elected, that, what ever Reform Bill was passed, the agriculturists should not lose by it. They ought to gain a greet deal more. At the same time he thought that the small minor towns ought not to return one or two members while places of much greater population and influence returned none; and he also believed that no measure would be acceptable to the country which, while it redistributed the representation, did not also extend the franchise. He might also observe that he felt confident Lord Derby would never bring forward a measure on this subject which was not strictly Conservative. Conservatism did not consist in keeping things exactly as they were; but it was a movement in accordance with the times, in which car e was t a ken that while the insti tutions of the country were preserved, they were also improved and strengthened. THE RIGHT HON. MILNER GIBSON, ➢i.P., ON REFORM. MR. MILNER GIBBON made a speech at Ashton on Tuesday, in which he thus touched on the question of Reform :—There was a question now occupying public attention, upon which he supposed it was be coming for him to say something, though he did not know much, because he had not seen any of the plans likely to be proposed to Parliament in refe rence to reforming the representation. He saw that a gentleman was charged with having stolen a public despatch, and he wished that the document stolen had been the new Reform Bill. He should like to have seen what it was Lord Derby was going to propose. It was reported in London that Lord Derby, who was rather a sporting character, was going to astonish the old Whigs; that he was going further than they, perhaps, would like to follow. Then there was Mr. .Bright, but lie had not seen Mr. Bright's Reform R ll l. Although it might not go to an extent that would meet all the wishes of Reformers, he had no doubt it would be a real and solid improvement in the. representative system. Th ere were three clues. tions we had to ask ourselves :—Was reform wanted ? , , What sort of a reform would we have? How are we to carry any Reform Bill? Taking the last first, it was clear that to carry a real measure we must be content to sacrifice minor differences. Those who wished to go a little way must be content to go a little further ; those who were prepared to go a great way must be satisfied with stopping somewhat short. By that union of forces we might be able to carry a good and valuable measure, improving the repre sentation, and giving the people a more effectual control over the Government. The bill of 1832 was carried in that way. That measure was disparaged now, but it was a large one as compared with the then existing state of things. Earl Grey said, a few year previously, that he could prove that 145 indivi duals, peers and great commoners, returned a majo rity of the Howie of Commons. It must be admitted that the bill of 1832 was a greater advance, compa. ratively, than any well-considered measure we could now expect would be. People were not now so alarmed as they used to be at the idea of reform. Sir R. Inglis predicted that if the bill of 1832 passed, in ten years there would be no King in England, and that the Lords would be turned out of their house. But now we had upon the throne a monarch who was, perhaps, more loved and respected than ever before was a monarch of England ; and we had the House of Lords still in full feather. What we were now going to ask for was, not the destruction of the House of Lords, or any interference with the prerogatives of the Crown ; what we wanted was a real House of Commons as well as a House of Lords ; a House of Commons returned by the people, and not nominated by the Lords ; and that there might be freedom of voting through the protection of the ballot. The first and staggering fact we met with in reference to Reform—and it was a complete answer to his first question—was that out of five million adult males scarcely a million enjoyed the elective franchise. That state of things could not last. Every man must feel that it was a question that would have to be dealt with calmly and dispassionately, when the passions of the people were not aroused, and with the knowledge that the great mass of the people were daily improving in political and other knowledge. Lord Macaulay had well said—" The great cause of revolutions is that nations move onwards, and that constitutions stand still." Let us, in England, as we knew that our people were moving onward, see that our Constitution moved also. But be would be asked, " How far will you go ? " Are you prepared for universal suffrage, or for manhood suf frage? What will you do?" He answered, that his individual opicion upon the question of the suffrage —of its being a political right appertaining to the man—availed nothing in the consideration of a matter of this sort. He would support that extension of the suffrage which appeared to meet the approval of the greatest body of sincere Reformers—which ap peared the most likely to be carried, and to confer a great advantage upon the country. He would not be deterred from supporting a moderate measure, because it might not coma up to those abstract theories of the right of the suffrage being in the man, which everybody, no doubt, whether Tory or Liberal, must in his conscience hold. In dealing with the question, in these times, we must deal with it as practical men, looking to what could be carried. Let a well-considered measure be laid upon the table by men in whom the Liberal party had confidence; let that bill be well circulated and considered ; and if it met the approval of public meetings in the large towns, then let the whole Roform party unite to a man, and carry it through the Legislature. With regard to the vote by ballot, it was thought by many to be an unimportant question. He held it to be vital to the freedom of election in a country like this. Do what they would with the suffrage, a man could not exercise it freely, if there was coupled with the right of voting the condition that he was to publish his vote to all mankind. In a country like this, in which there were so many social in fluences, so many real powers exercised by owners of property over the labour of the country, by landlords over tenants, and by customers over those who dealt in articles of merchandize, we had a case for the ballot without going to Australia or any other coun try. It could not be too often repeated,. that when the Reform Bill of 1832 was under consideration, it was distinctly avowed by the Minister of those days that the ballot was a subject for future consideration. It was well known that the Cabinet of Lord Grey had resolved at that time to give the ballot with a 201. franchise, and that they took away the ballot when they extended the franchise to 10/., although, when the franchise was extended, he considered there was the greater necessity for the ballot. They might depend upon it there was no real ground fur opposing the vote by ballot, but a fear of the existing constituency of the country. There was no danger in reform in England if by danger was to be under stood confusion or disorder. We were a practical common-sense people, and could manage our reforms without violence or force, by simple appeals to reason. He believed there was nothing in the shape of parliamentary reform which the people would have a difficulty in obtaining, if they set to work 410% -ao- 1209 and argued the question out with those who held high places, and brought the force of publio opinion to bear upon them. LORD PALMERSTON AT ROMSEY. LORD PALMERSTON presided on Thursday afternoon at the annual dinner of the Romsey Agricultural Society. After the usual toasts Sir J. B. Mill pro posed the health of the noble chairman, referring to his taking office at a time of national depression during the Crimean war, and to the successful management of that war. Lord PALMERSTON returned thanks, and, after a few preliminary observations, thus referred to his foreign policy . I may be permitted to say with regard to the conduct of the Russian war, that it certainly was brought to a suc cessful and glorious issue under the Government of which I had the honour to be one, in co-operation with our allies the French and Sardinians—and let us not alto gether forget the brave Turks who, for the whole of twelve months, defended the line of the Danube unsup- ported by any allies. But if we were able to bring that war to a successful and glorious termination, it was not owing so much to any merit on our part as to the deter. mined and manly spirit of the British nation. The people of this country took it up as a national question, and when Englishmen are determined to assert their rights and make their will prevail it is difficult to find a resistance that will thwart them in the pursuit of their object. It is no doubt gratifying to us who were members of the late Administration to see that the great features of the policy that we recommended to Parliament have been carried out by our successors to a successful and satisfactory result— that the rebellion in India is now nearly quelled, that our operations in China have led to a successful and satis factory treaty, and that we have obtained a very satisfac- tory and advantageous convention with Japan. If we are entitled to claim any merit it is one that belonged more peculiarly to the late Administration than to any other portion of the community—namely, the choice of agents, and we may look with peculiar pride and satisfaction at having selected Lord Canning for the government of lodis, at having appointed Lord Clyde to conduct military operations in that country, and at having chosen Lord Elgin to carry on the negotiations with China. These three individuals have entitled themselves to the gratitude and admiration of their countrymen for the manner in which they have performed the duties which respectively fell to their lot. In proposing the toast of the evening, " The Romsey Agricultural Association," Lord Palmerston thus alluded to the progress of agriculture and the benefits conferred by such societies : With regard to the agriculture of the country generally the progress it has made since that melancholy epoch, as it was considered, when the principle of free trade was applied to agriculture, is must remarkable. We, who always supported that doctrine, contended that those who were protected generally went to sleep, and those who go to sleep can't do much—that the industry which is left open and subject to competition is wide awake, and those who are wide an eke are generally stirring and active. The result has justified those anticipations. From the time that agriculture was subject to the spur of competition the greatest possible progress has been made in agricultus rid practice and science. We have seen the introduction cf machinery that was never dreamed of before. People used to imagine that agriculture differed from manufac tures in so far that agriculture was simply the work of the hand, while machinery was, they thought, to be confined to those other processes that did not relate to the culti vation of the soil. Of late years, however, implements of the most ingenious description have been applied to agri cultural pursuits, greatly to the advantage of the owners and tenants of t le soil, and, allow me to say, not to the disadvantage of the labourer. People used to think that machinery would cut out labour and diminish the de mand for it. But the contrary has been proved, for in those manufacturing towns in which machinery is used, in proportion to the increase of machinery, so has been the increased demand fur men and women. So it will be in agriculture. The soil will be better cultivated when machinery is applied to certain processes, hut the amount of labour required will not be less. I have no doubt that we shall live to see great im provements in that respect, and that the application of steam to different agricultural processes will be carried to a much greater estent than it is at present, to the advantage of the country, and not to the disadvantage of the labouring class. lu our neighbourhood we have seen how greatly agricultural science has improved. The increased quantity of stock which has been produced within the memory of many of us shows the great advance in agricultural practice and science. The land is far cleaner than it used to be. lam bound, however, to say that one sees a field now and then that seems rather to belong to a painterthan a farmer, in which the most beautiful colours prevail, and over which the late Mr. Turner might appear to have been spreading that yellow tint which he so much delighted in. Sometimes one might think that there was a prize to be competed for in " chulock " as well as in other products. In general, however, the land is much more cleanly cultivated than formerly. In fact, agriculturists have begun to see that weeds in your field are like a set of tramps iu your kitchen; the tramps eat up your stock to the prejudice of your family, and the weeds eat up the nourishirent that ought to produce the crop. No doubt great progress has been made, and greater still remains to be accomplished. There is one thing that I wish to - upon your ►ttention—guano is a material of tity, and the regions that produce it arc not • Ste.e , • TII E PRESS, DECEMBER 11, 1858. 1209 , „,„ an i ons and in our m . municipal governments, with some What sort of a reform would we have? How are we and argued the question out with those who held high n eedless restrictions with regard to the municipal frau- to carry any Reform Bill? Taking the last first, places - and brought the force of public opinion to c hise which I would not introduce into our parliamentarY it was clear that to carry a real measure we must be bear Upon them. franc hi s e. The more public opinion is freely and honestly content to sacrifice minor differences. Those who repress ed, the more distinctly will a Government engaged wished to go a little way must be content to go a i n prepsring a Reform Bill be able to discover which is little further; those wh o . were prepared to go a great LORD PALMERSTON AT ROMSEY. the point likely to be most satisfactory to the public. I LORD PALMERSTON presided on Thursday afternoon coosider these differences of opinion on the suffrage as of way must be satisfied with stopping somewhat short. tr ifli n g importance when compared with the question of By that union of forces we might be abl e t o carry a at the annual dinner of the Romsey Agricultural the distribution of seats and members. This is the vital good and valuable measure, improving the repro- • . • point in the coming bill, and unless it be well watched, you sentation, and giving the people a more effectual Society. After the usual toasts Sir J. B. Mill pro. pla y get any amount of suffrage, and yet find after all that control over the Government. The bill of 1832 was posed the health of the noble chairman, referring to you have lost the substance and are playing merely with carried in that way. That measure was disparaged his taking office at a time of national depression the shadow of popular representation.— JO HN am, BRIG very HT. tr uly now, but it was a large one as compared with the during the Crimean war , an d t o th e success f u l pur, t h en existing state of things. Earl Grey said, a f ew Mr. James Robertson. management of that war. year previously, that he could prove that 145 iudtvi- Lord PALMERSTON returned tha n k s , an d, a ft er a f ew THE AGRICULTURAL CONSTITUENCIES duals, peers and great commoners, returned a majo- rity of the House of Commons. It must be admitted preliminary observations, thus referred to his foreign AND REFORM. that the bill of 1832 was a greater advance, comps. P ol icy '— MR. W. MILES, M.P, one of the members for the ratively, than any well-considered measure we could I may be permitted to say with regard to the conduct now expect would be. People were not now so of the Russian war, that it certainly was brought to a suc- eastern division of the county of Somerset, at a dinner a l leltt h e a s d t h t e h the 1. 1 e i o n n o o h u r an t d o alarmed as they used to be at the idea of reform. Sir cessful and glorious issue under the Government of which of the Bruton Agricultural Society, made some R. Inglis predicted that if the bill of 1832 passed, in S he ard e in h i e iL i s a — ce- and ep l e e r t at u io s h n w ot ith al o to_ ur observations on the coming Reform Bill, especially ten years there would be no King in England, and t we l ve forget the brave Turks who, for the whole of referring to the agricultural constituencies. He said that the Lords would be turned out of their house. tl months, defended the line of the Danube unsup- ported by any allies. But if we were able to bring that But now we had upon the throne a monarch who he was against the ballot and against universal _ _ wee, per haps, more loved and respected than ever war to a successful and glorious termination, it was not suffrage. But the question was, if the people bad before was a monarch of England ; and we had the owing so much to any merit on our part as to the deter• become ripe for the suffrage, might it not be bestowed House of Lords still in full feather. What we were now mined and manly spirit of the British nation. The people upon those who d id not at present possess it ? going to ask for was, not the destruction of the House of this country took it up es a national question, and when of Lords, or any interference with the prerogatives Englishmen are determined to assert their rights and Doubtless many of them had read a speech that had of the Crown ; what we wanted was a real House of make their will prevail it is diffi cu l t to fi n d a resistance been much spoken of which was recently delivered Commons as well as a House of Lords a House of that will thwart them in the pu rsu it o f th e i r o bj ect. I t i s ; by his hon. friend Mr. Newdegate. It showed the no doubt gratifying to us who were members of the late and not nominated way in which the seats in Parliament were distri- Commons returned by the p eo p le , Aciministratioe to see that the great features of the policy by the Lords; and that there might be freedom of bated, how the manufacturing and commercial • that we recommended to Parliament have been carried out voting through the of the ballot. The protection by our successors to a successful and satisfactory result— classes were represented, and also how the agricul- first and staggering fact we met with in reference to that the rebellion in India is now nearly quelled, that our total classes were represented. To those who had Reform—and it was a complete answer to his first operations in China have led to a successful and satis- taken the trouble to read that speech it must be question—was that out of five million adult males factory treaty, and that we have obtained a very satisfac- apparent that the agricultural members were in a scarcely a million enjoyed the elective franchise. tory and advantageous convention with Japan. If we are very small minority, while at the same time they That state of things could not last. Every man must entitled to claim any merit it is one that belonged more represented much larger constituencies and a much feel that it was a question that would have to be peculiarly to the late Administration than t o an y o th er greater amount of population than the members for portion of the community—namely, the choice of agents, dealt with calmly and dispassionately, when the other classes. If this were the case, there could be and we may look with peculiar pride and satisfaction at passions of the people were not aroused, and with no doubt whatever that in any redistribution of the having selected Lord Canning for the government of the knowledge that the great mass of the people were India, at having appointed Lord Clyde to conduct military constituencies—and there must be such a redistri- daily improving in political and other knowledge. operations in that country, and at having chosen Lord bunion in a Reform Bill—the claims of those who Lord Macaulay had well said—" The great cause of Elgin to carry on the negotiations with China. These had the least representation must be taken into revolutions is that nations move onwards, and that three individuals have entitled themselves to the gratitude account, and the number of representatives of the constitutions stand still." Let us, in England, and admiration of their countrymen for the manner in agricultural interest must be increased. Now, Mr. which they have performed the duties which respectively as we knew that our people were moving onward, Bright wished it to be quite another way ; he wished fell to their lot. see that our Constitution moved also. But be for 101. voters, or even lower than that, to have the would be asked, " How far will you go ? " Are you In proposing the toast of the evening, " The election of the members; but if this were allowed the prepared for universal suffrage, or for manhood sue- Romsey Agricultural Association," Lord Palmerston agriculturists instead of gaining would lose. If they frage ? What will you do?" He answered, that his thus alluded to the progress of agriculture and the now, in this free country, enjoyed the privileges of individual opinion upon the question of the suffrage benefits conferred by such societies : Englishmen, they would then stand a chance of —of its being a political right appertaining to the With regard to the agriculture of the country generally losing those privileges in the most complete way man—availed nothing in the consideration of a matter the progress has made chat melanchol y epoch, as it since imaginable, for the towns would return nearly all the of this sort. He would support that extension of it was considered, when the principle of free trade was members, and the agricultural interest would be in the suffrage which appeared to meet the approval of applied to agriculture, is must remarkable. We, who so small a minority that it would be very inadequately the greatest body of sincere Reformers—which ap- always supported that doctrine, contended that those who represented. He hoped, therefore, that the electors peered the most likely to be carried, and to confer a were protected generally went to sleep, and those . w ho . go would see that the constituencies should be so great advantage upon the country. He would not to sleep can' t do much—that the . i ndustry . which is left amended, and the members so elected, that, what- be deterred from supporting a moderate measure, open h and s ubject .d to competition eneii iswide a a w o a d k e, t a t :l e d those Th ever Reform Bill was passed, the agriculturists because it might not coma up to those abstract rwesoulatre ha w s i . e os a tt k j l e ed e those anticipations. anrtaimypations stirring From the . time should not lose by it. They ought to gain a greet theories of the right of the suffrage being in the that agriculture was subject to the sp ur . of coespetition deal more. At the same time he thought that the man, which everybody, no doubt, whether Tory or the greatest possible progress has been made in agricultu. small minor towns ought not to return one or two Liberal, must in his conscience hold. In dealing rid practice and science. We have seen the introductien members while places of much greater population with the question, in these times, we must deal with cf machinery that was never dreamed of before. People and influence returned none; and he also believed it as practical men, looking to what could be carried. used to imagine that agriculture differed from man ufac- that no measure would be acceptable to the country Let a well-considered measure be laid upon the table tures in so far that agriculture was simply the work of the which, while it redistributed the representation, by men in whom the Liberal party had confidence; hand, while machinery was, they thought, to be confined did not also extend the franchise. He might also let that bill be well circulated and considered ; and to those other processes that did not relate to the culti- observe that he felt confident Lord Derby would if it met the approval of public meetings in the vation of the soil. Of late years, however, implements o . f he most ingenious description have been applied to agn- never bring forward a measure on this subject which large towns, then let the whole Roform party unite cultural t pursuits, greatly to the advantage of the owners was not strictly Conservative. Conservatism did to a man, and carry it through the Legislature. and tenants of tle soil, and, allow me to say, not to the not consist in keeping things exactly as they were; With regard to the vote by ballot, it was thought disadvantage of the labourer. People used to think that but it was a movement in accordance with the by many to be an unimportant question. He held machinery would cut out labour and diminish the Be- times, in which care was taken that while the insti- it to he vital to the freedom of election in a country mend for it. But the contrary has been proved, for tutions of the country were preserved, they were also like this. Do what they would with the suffrage, a in those manufacturing owes in which machinery improved and strengthened. is used, in proportion to the increase of machinery, man could not exercise it freely, if there was coupled so has been the increased demand for men and with the right of voting the condition that lie women. So it will be in agriculture. The soil will be • • was to publish his vote to all mankind. In a country THE RIGHT HON. MILNER GIBSON, M.P . etter cultivated when machinery is applied to certain " like this, in which there were so many social in- processes but the amount of labour required will not be ON REFORM. fluences , so many real powers exercised by owners of lss. I have no doubt that we shall live to see great pH- MS. MILNER GIBSON made a speech at Ashton on property over the labour of the country, by landlords provements in that respect, and that the application of Tuesday, in which he thus touched on the question over tenants, and by customers over those who dealt steam to different agricultural processes will be carried to in articles of merchandize, we had a case for the a much greater extent than it sat present, to the advantage of Reform :—There was a question now occupying ballot without going to Australia or any other coun- of the country, and not to s he r d isadvantage of the labouring public attention, upon which he supposed it was be- try. It could not be too often repeated, that when c lass. lu our nei g hbourhood we have seen how greatly coming for him to say something, though he did not the Reform Bill of 1832 was under consideration, it agricultural . science has improved. The increased quantity of strod memo of kn ow much, because he had not seen any of the w a s distinctl y avowed b y the Minister of those days many ook of us which sh has been p ows the great uced ad within the vance in agricultu ry ral that the ballot was a subject for future consideration. plans likely to be proposed to Parliament in refe - C a binet of Lord re practice and science . The land is far cleaner than it used rence to reforming the representation. He saw that It was well known that the had resolved at that time to give the ballot with a to be. lam bound, however, to say that one sees a field now and then that seems rather to belong to a painterthan a gentleman was charged with having stolen a public 201. franchise, and that they took away the ballot a farmer, in which the most beautiful colours prevail, despatch, and lie wished that the document stolen had when they extended the franchise to 10/., although, and over which the late Mr. Turner might appear to have been the new Reform Bill. He should like to have when th e f ranc hi se was ex t en d e d, he considered been spreading that yellow tint which he so much delighted 11 4 seen what it was Lord Derby was going to propose. there was the greater necessity for the ballot. They in. Sometimes one might think that there was a prize to It was r e p or t e d i n L on d on th a t L or d D er by, who mi g ht depend upon it there was no real ground fe r be competed for in " chulock " u well as in other was rather a sporting character, was going to astonish opposing th e vo te by ballot, but a fear of the existing products. In general , however , t he land is m uch more the old Whigs; that he was going further than they, constituency of the country. There was no danger cleanly cultivated than formerly. In . fact, agriculturists perhaps,have begun to see that weeds in your held are like • set of would like to follow. Then there was Mr. in reform in England if by ilateser was to be under-tmp iu your kitchen; the tramps eat up your stock to Bright, but lie had not seen Mr. Bright's Reform stood confusion or disorder. We were a practical the prejudice of your family, and the weeds eat up the Bill. Although it might not go to an extent that common-sense people, and could tnanago our reforms would meet all the wishes of R e f or mers, lie had no without violence or force, by simple appeals to nourislerent that ought to produce the crop. No doubt great progress has been made, and greater still remains to doubt it wou ld b e a rea l and sol i d improvement in reason. He believed there was nothing in the sha pe b e accom pli s h e d. There is one thing that 1 wish to press the representative system. There were three ques• of parliamentary reform w hi c h the people would u p on y our at t en ti on —guano is a material of limited quan- , lions we had to ask ourselves :— Was reform wa n ted ? ' have a difficulty in obtaining, if they set to work tity, and the regions that produce it are not likely to be se itt I wish to press limited quan- t likely to be A THE PRESS, DECEMBER 11, 1858.