The Express. — London, England, 1850-04-13 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. - HOUSE OF LORDS—FRIDAY, Ann 12. The tows u.t st Ars Vieek. Lord Cason= sa* as Spanker. ............. oomp• Dm ow firterr.—By the Earl of EGLINTON, from Arbeesth, eamplaeing the payment the duty in tall ma •b red Lett is fiewhead, sad praying that it might be pet em the mama Poetics as enamel spirit: Pore orslo3.—By the Esti of REMAND, from several piece, spinet Seaday labour Ia pest.ollimrs. SPECIAL PLEADING. Lori CAMPBELL laid en this table • bill to amend epeeist pli edema, or the ere of peopesly fram'as Ike written otatemeats of plastid,, aid the replioi of &teatime in deb astione The shiest edger bill was to enable the judges to levies the p mon give& le thane to reels. the system of Brad pleading, sail" the net at Vs. IV reserving mho • power to both bemuse parliament to . mend ar saaa as, espalatiemo whisk might be made by the judges. CONVICT PRISONS BILL. Esrl GREY moved the third rembeg of this MIL Lied LITTELTON kad aot enifeestotd that epos the Mend readfrg of the bill the noble eel, the Seentavy Sir the Offieeles, would go into the whole question of trouper. talon; sod as he had not ezpreleed his epee* se that see wise, he weed venture to do ea very briefly now. He wee too well swan of the frioletful evils of the ea system of tree sp,r mem., aad the formidable difficulties which the sub ject (sr...tented sot to wish heartily well to mil attempt, at reformation with referees* to It. The plus now peopased by the it he earl held eat the hope of great amendment. with regard to all that th- goverament intended to do at home, namely, the "operatics of prepuce, aid their employment is relic loks. Tee sole islij ct of the old system was to deter pawns who bed sat committed crime. If they Cork the two extremes et opinion on this subject—Archbiehop Whitely ( with whom. it srpsared, S r Win . lleais e n *greed) on the o. s site, and Capt. /Imamate on the other, they would fled from the former that is almost all cases the idea of lb. reformation of the prisoner was treated as an amiable delusion ; and they won'd almost be led to imagist, from Capt. NI tenothies opinions, that it was hardly WWI to seek to deter from the commission of Mee—that this view Of the gelation was to be altogether pet on see side—for the beadle which cotoricr must derive from passing through his system of re ormaion. The ohject in the present day, however, was to combine both—to deter from the COMMAI. Poe of crime, sod to reform the criminal. The system of transportation, as now carried into effect, namely. that el eonveyiag prisoners to penal settlements with Utkirts leave, was vry little better than the old asetind et amigennat. Tone was nothing pima la the movies bad s free passers to a country el loam:ado, happiiess and plenty ; but if men severe aad formilable punishment could be devised which would IMll terbtlanto the advantages whelk the colony held out, the effect weld he meals more teneficial. With reformers to the district of Pon Phalle, which wonted labour perhaps more the. any other colony, there could he no doubt that the Colonials hail been sot against ref:fists, convict Wooer in consequesceof the neglect of the government in not providing proper regulates, far the reception of the movie emigres's. And now hi wool my a word or two as to Vii Dieseen's land it was impossible to reed the papers'on the w•bjeet, wi host seeing the precarious prospect of continuing transportation to that eol-ny even is it was now proposed lobe carried on. The whale of the pipers teem that colony osadanned the putties e f sanding convicts there altogether; sad it the was the feeling et primal, how much wronger would it become when the colsaists possessed the free heti tutiots wh ott it we. proposed to give them. (Hess. hoar.) The government hut t that k themselves for this freest, is oonsequeoee of toe otiatou they ex, reseed in 1848, that transporatim to that colony shoe:Meese*. In every offs of the petiii-ses which bad been received from the eilony, the stron,,est assertions were mule that, ia the years 1846.7, the colonists had been assured by the govern ment that trump:ration won'd not in any shape or foem he gent need to Van Diemen's land. What the goverment prep toed to do with reference to Norfolk Islam seemed to blue to be perfectly right. It was nothing more than • largo gash • very good owe it was, and he thought it right that is shon'd be motioned for the punish. =ant of the ecru of the convicts. In 1848, however the govern can declared their intention wholly to abolish Sot tole Wend aloo ; but es to Vas Di-nitre's L led, le the same year, the noble earl, is a despatch to Sir Wm Demean, clearly stet• d the: the government. would no Lager make that coleoy a penal settlement. He would not dwell en the indiscretion of his noble freed in propodag to send oat will the convicts an equal nuwber of free easigraate. He thought mach greater evil would be dose by the degradation of the free emigrants then would be cenatorbahmeed by any good which eonld arise from such a cow*. How would their lordships like to be sent oat as makeeweigots for coneise ? No high zoiaded roils could submit t le Lord WODEHOUSE, who was somewhat inaudible, said that in the cor.sidersaon of this important subject every allowance ought to be made for this difficulties which the government ha:: had to encounter is grapplicg with the guide's. The ..ob!e le cl then gave a hasty summary of tbs provieinm of the li2. and prow eded to a.l that its object was threetald, namely. toe prevention of trMe— the ref. nnstion or aiminsa—and finally the benefit whisk the col*. ha would Its suppceed to derive from the lattoduct in of emeriti la' oar. It appeared to him that the measure was dr Sereina of el praise, and w a mare sera heed to r: rim orimines than soy other scheme which had ever hven devised. (H at, bear ) It was obvious that the severity of every punkin:lint must vary socanlint to the lossen character and the nature of the crime ; but as a gosh gel puntshmert, zothing was so calculated to reform the minute solitary eculneseent, in which he must radars the lash of an awakened ennient e. This and the employ sent of convicts in public works were two modes of pinkie moot adapted to easy out the objects which rceiety bed is view wit% reference to the punishment and ref araaa tion of a pains. As to transportation, he thought there was a serious objection to almost every mode yet proposed for carrying f into *IL et. He believed the great repugnant* to aMvatics bat sew n from the dbaut which the emigrants felt at being asrmi.ted with nitrites. That repugnance was, however, becoming weaker every day. Great, r sum. ben lora to emigrate, and this also *out,' tend to deprive traesponedlom of its terror as a moans of preventing grime. Bat whatever plan th. y adopted with regard to thsk criminals, they should sot forget that the pcsossich of wide and catenary* regime carried with .t pave and serious re sponstbitities ; sad should beware lest, if they founded nations is them regions, stained with the vine 'Meter than the virtues of the masher country, the evil 'lnlaid recoil apes themselves, end they should one day or other receive a well merit d r nitration. (Hoar. teem) The E .r 1 w ILCHESTER thought that transportation, as a loco:Levy piserament, not be entirely given up ; for be believed it to he a great mesas of deterring Iro n crime, whkti theuid be the chief red of ul potniannanst. The rtfcrumioa of the olkader warn certainly a desirable oh jest, but it was scarred to, and Include' in the Ether prune;. pie. He knew that tramegoetatien was booked ;'on as a great p ankh:mat e en! et that period when exag gerated ate Anna bad best 'retired from their pane settlemmts or tee great prosperity and various en joyments to bs kind there. He knew that the criminal in many ten, having bens anted en by his hmpthions in guilt, or Excited by what tad pass , d about him in court, had kaveg and jstreel at the whom of transportation, but after twin; a at pinta tell for a few weeks his opinion was very much changed. The experience of pokes, and or the chaplains to 'nob, justified Ike nee rthea that prison. vs looked with great dread limo the . panisemont of transportation. (Hear, hear.) With respect to tie preliminary confinement in Pentnnvillo Prison, be could state, es me of her birjes,j'a ciarnisioners, that the prsoners looked upon it with fear, and they were only vs wank to the neat stage of that punishment they bad to undergo, by bang is atnimed as to the circumstances of the calory to which they were going, and the menrance that if they conducted ttoeseelvee well they would r nits tidos* of leave, ov be placed in the !nom el thee of " exiles." All the experience which they bad hod ef the separate system for the last sever yesn proved net only its great moral effects as a hinishonot on the elf win. het its value as a means of Ewen*, from crime Oct of doors. (Hear, inst.) He was glad to find from the report of Portland prism, which had been laid on the table of the hew, that the smp!nymtnt of cantina on public works there had proved eatistsetory. But he stud considered teat they required to ha more timely and vigilantly watched than erhert, and that was a rtaeon why be thought this part of the punishment should taki_place rather In the mother town thanin the rickey. (Hear.) He hoped that by an teems that word of all penal snablistimants, the hulk, would be abalistsi altogether. (Hear.) Lord STANLEY rejoiced that the nobh eel had modified the plan weak he had negated to their lord ships two Teen ego for esioptih ; benne*, with regard le the ;meat prop:tins cf convicts, he c tnoid red that the punishment of transportstias carnal with it • dean* c f terror shish had a mannal tit a is preventing permns from the erommissionol crime. (Hear, hear.) That w tithe cgieloa of almost ail the judges, and it was the unauintoue episioa of the committee of that house which sat on the subject. He bell. v. d there was one class of convict* in petti fogs, far whom the pualebment of transportation had terrors whisk no other would produce. Another important reason why he tinned that tampon ition west* be continued—and 011Mtillge4 Is Es great an extent as ever—wag this, that be. atm, however w, lleolp teed carnets might be to ten to as honest mode of Ille, till they were conveyed out of this country all honest kinds of employment ware clotted against them; sod hew. ever well inehned to lend an honest life, they were unable to di so, from being eapuseti to the talus-PM of old awn elates in crime sad old ttirouati ns. (Hear, hear.) lie knew , d ihstanne in which pero.n.s Lved is this country aft, r having Men convicted of clue, and who caned at. honest heidilio .1 onder I roployers who were emir yeeint.-d with their !Fenian. lite, hut en" wen driven huh to the re c of crime by the three s of form r ace that oil• es they gave a mom at money, or joined wit', th em in tees c imes, they well inform their employers of their form e r CALMS ir Hear, hear Therefore it was of in hales leaportame Os . . in the first thrum., or afur umbrae ng a tole d of netts punishment an this eamatry, perms convicted of crime 'hued be is paerai hint Iran this c.untry to a penal a ttirment Us cur meld *ph both the tiob'e lords who had siok.n, thet 1! tran•portatios was still to br continued to a great *lfni tr ern was nue% amore to .1,. Goeogantent w. re only at the bVismillit yr 'Ws diffieulties. They had pa tpotied or meson tor the pe. a as the pressure tithe gelation with retied le lesatyrerta•km, hut they had sot disnisished the libiseate urgency of the dillicalty. la tLis atuntry the dm stage was to be earried en in separate seallameat ; the second in employment nu nubile works. Thoy had a largo building in 1•t.•..', ere shore wes entploysneat f. 4r ; mat, ea haportiat seismal wake, d wry Imp amber of movies , tad NM the alligaVor t the. Meet mature thet organleatioa of that agl lC: l , l What that seemed *sic Bat thenghtlie; work, the ef s barker of feke":43l" il l t igi a l bl 4= l . whoa sin, ea tea w that tea ORM IthMetilt vish • 'fiffiulfilbeled balidiag, triable& met air mentola Sem, sad werealiet: Wed to *mak • wry large weber of Osman is the mooed Mtge of their eintesem—the employment ea with* of pablie himett—totil se works ea *Well employ rm. Peados tram Ilk mead stemv to *steal transportades, he that gee Kale Of the Mashies i d= goveremeat had the to bl at era tur e d .lt=rl: mile lima peen& to p a wl w ` dm system without tiSeaties. hat gr.at pod wee eseamptod with the graft of sesignment of omelets, sad the pciaciplo had boss tee hauls almoissed. Uador the system asw pro posed, tharekteseld not he a maw somber of sethists trommeeted time throlefore for all ibis male imitate were still a go oat of 'this ematry. Whet me muff,. that, was then that the colonists woad I. willies to nano them ? It wail well karts that groat en. marigemeat had bees gime to Tan Diemea's Laced, by the esseseetal mambas, .(the Gape of Goad Hope, to rotas, trany mere measielo Mrs mat there, ispoidally whoa eal apematiss had Men boldest to the °okay by the go• vsramsaL that, Is.. Ned Mr • attain time, transportation to V.. lasi iambi mom. Now it it appeared it was net es them bet to codas to m fall aa extent as it hod wee bees married a ; and Vas Dlemea's Lead was the way esleay to which it was peeped to mad atavism except the emelt member that were to to seat to Western Animate. What Nevi' had the immanent that the °okay would set teat the bereduaticat of those convict.; or, If Mods{ mairity hod 'boy that all the moral, and, still seen, tb• coononslini liteneWenisMill which ever amorapealed W swilog of • vast assitar et male convicts to the colony, would sate renewed? Ha mateaded that the goverameat was this, trom head to mu.tk se a matter which it was meet t should he dealt with effectively. Lewd ONTEAOLE thought it most important that the moral affect of the fear of transportation Amid be lespla on the criminal population at house. Amongst I criminals, transportation was dreaded more than death itself. The general question of transporlatioa had not had judos done it ; it had be.. Mewed too made is • one-sided light ; and Um legisla tures lad ban horrified by ohs deta ils of its immorality. Thole*. Emma of Australia (84 Richard Booths) had ape of the Velem of alideraillest, and said that great had neelted Stager.. to the industrious swans; he dee Wiled to the moral imprommeat of as convicts. Alit the Ilissreatary of State himself had condemned the Rya to. Of immortalise, what weeder that the eulogists them- MIMS shored in that hells, and resisted the landing of areviste ? (Hear, bear) Ulises the whole sysam were plead ate a different footing it would be extremely difficult to orations it. He sew so fear of employment waxing souse in Annelle ; the convicts might always be usefully employed there as pioneers, in clearing lands, mania, roads, sad so on. The government had acted nastily in modgmaint transportation. GEE said h. would first reply to the argument about the Irish prisons. Is each year since the government came into office a larger number of convicts had been removed from Ireland than in the years preceding. The overcrowding of the prisms was solely owing to the larger numbers committed. The Icosd-Lieutinent of Ireland had dna all in his pow.r to increase the means of disposing of them. A lap estatdishment had been created on Spam Ishad,:whers 1,200 or 1,400 prisoners were placed. Aa setablishment on the model of Pentonulle had shoo been formed, and was now in operation ; and he was not aware that mom mold be done. When the pressut administration cams into office they found Van Diemen'. Lead abooloily choked with erimtmle ; by the adminion of everybody that was theism. New South Wiles was way partially open for the reception , under existing regulations, of a limited member of oaths ; none but in di could be sent there or to Part Phillip. Gibraltar and Bermuda had very scanty means of rossiving convicts, and it was utterly impossible greatly to therms* the number sent there ; in point of fact, at both plasm there wan more than could be accommodated. At Bermuda the accommodation was rspiny inereas imi; and he hoped the prisoners there would soon ho removed from the hulks, which was very dm!rable. Two thble lords had objected to transportation altogether. He denied not that some moral evils had arisen from sending envies in large numbers to the penal colonies, but they had been really ex +greeted ; and, comparing them with those which existed under the system as at present worked, or which would exist under any different mode of secondary punishment, he greatly doubted whethir the balance would not be in favour of transportation as it was formerly con dueled. (Hear, hest) Wit bad the examples of otbir countries boron as, and knew the frightful evils which re sulted in France from the army of forces now existing there (Hear, hear.) There were now 'marg in the Australian soloabis,—• large neajority of them earning their own liven hood,—no fewer than 49,000 persons who had passed through sentences of transportation, who, had they remained in this country, would, in all probability, have been compelled to continue criminals in spite of themselves. (Hear, hear.) Then it trust be recollected that communities in olosias had been created by the convict system. By no other sys tem could they have created in that short spate of time e muskies of that magnitude and of that wealth, because, though it was tray that South Australia bad not been a con vict colony, yet South Australia would in ver have rims as it has rises bad it not been for the neighbourhood of convict colonies. It had been enabled to draw fr thee colonies calls and sheep, and all the m-terid meson of over coming the first (faculties of settlement. As to New South Wales and Van Diemen's Lead they were the direct creation of the system of transportation, and to Port Phillip the ob sensation almost equally spplied. He said, then, the sys tem of transportation was one that ought not to be abuidored ; but, at the lame time, the more he looked into the circumstences the more Oh. opinion gained upon him which he adopted some years ago—that the most penal part of the sentences of transportati. n ought to be infinted et home. He thought then bad been a good deal of seguissosace on that view en both sides of the hors. It eta admitted that there were opportunities of supervision in this country which could not exist in the colonies. The noble 1 ,rd bad objected to the works in Port land, saying that the weeks would not he in existence many an, and then the whole establishment would bo %MM. He (Earl Grey) thought that was an erronecus opinion. In the first place, the buildings had been constructed with a view to their übimets removal if necessary. Thu gnat bulk of the building at Portland ware constructed of wool, with a vi.vr to ultimata removal, it that removal was no oassary , and he believed they could be removed for a comparativ. ly scull expense. Aud that wee net all. As long as they had any public works at all, the works at Portland would be of 'Cu.; and for this reason, that the guarries at Portland were inexhaustible. The was stone there which would last !or thousands of years, awl of excellent quality. The convicts might be employed in nisiog this stone and drawing it, and it could be shipped ready dreamed and prepared for public buildings. Therefore he believed for many years to come Forehand would be a station for cootie's, and the physical formation of the penin sula was so favourable for ensuring the separation of Ohs convicts !TOM the inhabitaws that he believed it would be impossible to find a better situation. His noble friend sad it wou'd I e better to employ monies on great public works in the colonies, more cape dally in the preparation of coheirs for future occupation. Now allow hits to remind their lordships that all then fear ful evils which had when both in New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land were is cons-queen of the system o read making. If they were to employ convicts in gangs to making loads or in chain land, or in any way they phased, he was satisfied it was impossible IG,OOO miles off to guar/ airiest those cells. He believed that hereafter then would be a lager and better &Id for the employment of eon. Meta in the colonies than existed now. He would shortly state the reason for that opinion. In the first place, in reference to the remarks of the noble lord on the wool sack sad Mike noble lord opposite, with regard to the mu sans of government during first years of their secession to officer, he wished to make one or two ohservationa. The noble lord said the linings used by bur Majesty's govern ment would lead to a belief that trawportation was entirely to be disconiinued, and to create an impression of that kind la the colonies. Now, if that impression did exist it was mon from the representations of other parties than from what had fallen from her Majesty's government. He (lethal say parson to read through 1t,,. despatches, as a whole, and not to perceive that the view entertained from first to last was this—that the convicts were to bit removed to the Australis* oclonies, and a very large proportion of them to Vsa Diemen's Land. Undoubtedly government was dis posed that toes, convicts should be removed as exiles. Experience bed clearly proved that removal, without rem. talking some control over the caseiwe, was a bad system. The plan . ith regard to North Ansinlia w.s, that it was to be a colony of convicts removed from Van Diesses Land, and af.er they had ceuid to In under the control of government. Lord STANLEY—HoIding tickets of leave and cos ditineal pardons. Earl GREY—They would have had a convict colony with no free employers, and the colony was to be established st Use expense of government. Now, what was the objet of going to N nth Australia, seeing that Van Dineen's Land coat .ined an enormous quentil of unappropriated had, and that the they bed their forces and their com missariat, sad all their estalalithment ? If they were t go to the scams of setting these men, why not do it in Vast Diemen's Land? Bat he knew that the real object of sending them to North Anthills was to send them, as it were, through a sieve into New Ruth Wales. Now that was • policy ho did not approve of. If they were to mad atheists to any place, send them openly and VI:1y. He thought it w a perfectly just that men who had obtained conditional pardons ehould not be debarred from going to neighbouring c ,lonise. Then, with regard to Western Australis, it was true that Wasteru Austraiia was at pr-.rot a very small sons simony, and could not ininsediavaly absorb a very large number of ceiieicts. but Western Australia was a colony of oatraordinary natural advantages; Its timber we, of un rivalled It:caffeine and *my of aeons; its sail was capable of raising ewe in and productions of tut kind which were 'sleuthed to yield a large return for labour. It possessed Mao that which was a great difficulty in ookmaisation—the means of sinking a fleet start, cattle atd stoup and ample food for the fleet emigrants, and when convict lather was applied In works that were there prop , red, and =senantars were created, ha firmly believed that era Australia would afford a rigidly inerwaing Reid to whisk ninths in large numbers could be anomaly mat. H. had said that convicts ought n o t t o b e omphrd tarty on public works. lie begged to mufti their lordships tha t on a former events. be stated, cad Is Mated now, that the employmout of .arise On werke could not be entirely dispensed with. What he signed ageism was large cot ihli•hnicnto of 'hat Wad. The THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY- EVENING, APRIL 13, 1850. • gerseser of Via Diemea's Li.d stated that the okay me ftWide rid e 60 plan, shy es kaa the depreasle ill w radar was a whisk it had labeitawl. I. th Wie W rile itheertease, sad Ikon iaow, wet also he esprit et a dew timber. The OS. labour whisk It powered was boobs *vi re Is sa ddidawp; sad Ws ern eylaiss wee, that by IMO. Mail set kwat of free mothers, and rem Z k T e t ai holdersetitsifsr sight bo b = th e is e r vii4 • . eftwasekel =T il tv be get ovetta wi tir o tha ier besemessakis4 1 ee INN ant atomise sissies MI6 visisseddiwke, is whisk as sets with essainel lewdest aisle lei! pew& Be timid ewly Whir ebserve t wilk sefiseti lettiesedissee that bt be expected his Vas Dims% Lead, be swreued Mel he wile bed skull km Nil es mash Bat Its did 20 bawl OM thee sesiNewee would tab pleas. be Itelleved that that sudsiest* tree wash ins tksa was 5 11146. Ile wadi sly sty, with regard to the peskier el the peewit MU, that he astritted the lase of tbe ebeetwatiews made by a stele earl wbe W ponied him /1126eught it likely that hereaftse it wedd he le seaselidate he wises sets, bat their esweelidadee nquke aelestiew, sad Oak Widths eeshtte wilt ratil hey had *Wiled mew eipstimee Were tksyfattbee iaterkred fa adalaktrathessities. Thepeladpie of the bill was a step is the right direihs, sados such, he was glad that it bid obtained the general supra of the bowie. After a few wage Rua Lords MoirmaciLl and LTITIL TON, the bill was rend a third time, and passed. THE WATERFORD, WEXFORD, AND WICKLOW RAILWAY.—CABII OF MR. NASH. Upon the notion of Barl OuNTU.t.a Mr. Nub, the secretary to theWaterford, Wezford, and Wicklow Railway, who was accused of having made an unauthorised return to the house, was ordered to be called to the bar, for the pur pose of being reprimanded and discharged. Mr. Nash, oa appearing at the bar, made some remarks, and referred to several documents, with the view of defend ing his conduct in the transaction. The SPEAKER (Lord Campbell) then addressed him as follows: Charles De Lmr Nash, the mboondau by which you have met the disOeseere of this house is for having made a return which you were not required to make, and for having made it without the authority of the railway company of whieb you professed to be secretary. The house finds that you wefts not 'dotted by any fraudulent or malicious mo th ism ee, but at the, time the louse has reason to be greatly dissatisfied, breams the return was made in a inmost calcu lated to 'stand, and might have been prejudicial to the railway company. The hones has ordered you to hi repri manded and discharged irons any further atkndanas, and you are reprimanded aeocrdiogly. Mr. Nash then withdrew. Their lordships adjourned at half-past 8 o'clock. ROUSE OF COMMONS.—FRIDAY, APRIL 12. The Sractits took the chair sheath talon 4 o'clock. PUBLIC BUSINESS. PETITIONS PRESENTED. Taxes ON KNOWLIDOI.—By Colonel DUNNE, from the Eirges County ; Mr. BADLEIR , from tho proprietors of the Carlow Swaim! ; Mr. HUME, from the Printers' Aroeiatices, Arbroath ; for the abolition of these taxes. CRUICK Raxits.—By Mr. COBDEN, from the ottoman ,ion of Festicio, county Merit:meth ; Mr. PETO, trout Essex; Lord DUNCAN, from Ashton.under Lyn* ; Lord U. VANE, from Durham, against church rates. AGRICULTURAL Dismiss —By Major C. BRUCE, from &let shire ; Mr. 0 DUNCOMBE, nom Yorkshire, prayiLg fir the restoration of protection to sericulture. FACTOSIIII BILL.—By Mr. BANKES (7), from Luna shire, in favour of this bill. LABOUR IN Fecrosins.—By Mr. COBDEN (9), from mill operatives in Holmfirth,Yorkshire ; and from mill opera. tiers of Milibtidge, neer Leeds, for an Eleven Hours 8.11. MALT TAN —By Mr. COMPTON, from Thrill:led. in (avow of the abolition of the tax ; and by Mr. BRO l HER. TON, from a place not beard, in favour of its continuation. rout am the ambled, sad whim I latiodneed • bill, pro posing bin 8,0051. a year ea the NWT of the Chid Judd, It was said that it wieldier that the algid Oka minima, of the whole epessikm, assiniad Is leave eat part of the bill, namely, the *tele vassa the l the future sahry it the Chief Justin the Odd of Queen's Bench sad that of the Chief hods. dam ONO of Oeninsoa Plod, aposa lt mrandhedesa ma& whites, by aa Ikaa. gentleman theot Loo— at whites, , sad empar a z i t retired allot/ammo allottoil to the Judges, I iell t that if the Wastes of the Child Jas of the Court of ' Queen's Beach, and of the Chief Indies of the Court of Common Pins were to be reduced, it should be considered whether say of the others salaries sad say of the retired allemande were meltable of reduction. (Hear, hoer.) The last part of the ladies which I have to pro pose, Made to the diplomatic establishment of the country. The expanses of those establiahmeats were formerly defrayed out of the civil list; but in the separation that was mace on the demise of the crown in 1830, of the expenses which mars putidearly belonged to' the sovereign and the sovereign's household from those which wore of a different nature, the diplomatic establishments we re placed upon the consolidated fund, and • sun was allotted for the general purpose of defraying the @sidles. Now, ht pro posing that there should be a committee open this subject, I propose that this) matter should be inquired into—l pro pod that any evidence which may be thought necessary should be taken, in order that the reasons for keeping up orretaining salaries or establialtwate might be given ; and, on the other hand., that U any reduction is to he made, it may be effected in eontormity with the views of the committee. One member of the government, at least, should, I think, be appointed to sit on that committee, is order that he may be able to state, with regard to different salaries, reasons for proposing either to retain, to seduce, or to abolish them. Sir, I should not think it necessary to co fir. ther than this proposal, seeing that it is in conformity with precedent, and seeing that I think the hoes generally would conceive it to be useful, which it is apparent was the sense of the house when I first gave • notice upon this sub. tt —I should not think it neesesary, I say, to go further, ad not an hoe. gentleman opposite—the hen. member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli) intimated his intention to move an emtndment. At the same time, I observe in the list of notices that, on Teasley, the 23rd of April, that hon. member means " To call the attention of the hods to the diphmatie and consular et rvices, with &view "'their more ecenomicel and officinal performenee ;" and I see likewise, that on Tuesday the 30th of April, Mc. Henley is to propcse t' A general revision of all salaries, with a view to redaction." Now this shows, la the first place, that those two hon members think, that with regard to the diplomatic salaries, there is room for revision and inquiry, and like wise that the question of 'elates ought to be considered by the house. The question it, therefore, I think, whether they bays proposed a convenient mode of instituting an inquiry, and whs. her they have t ken • proper view of the mode in which, for the present at least, I propose to limit the in quiry. Now, with regard to the first of these point" the hon. member for Buckinghamehlre states in his amendment, 1 that it is the duty of the government forthwith to ! Introduce the measures that may be nee nay for effecting every reduction in the national establithments consistent with the efficient dischorge of the public service. This seems to imply, although it certainly does not directly assert, that the govt foment hays not b. en taking those matures which they conceive to be news' .ry for every reduction in the ten Vocal establishments consistent with the due discharge of the public sarioe. (Hear, heard I have stated the lemons why I propose that the salseits of persons holding office at the pleasure of the crown should be inquired into by this committee; but I do not mean at all to deny the responsi bility of making every possible reduction consi•teet with the efficiency of the public service, which attaches to the govern ment itself; and if the hon. meth men wbi give met it atten tion fur a few minutes, I void show lim that there has not been any want of attention to the subject. In the first plat I will refer to the military estimates. In eastern ity first with meatures which the government itself thought right, next with the views of a 'elect committee from tine to time, and lastly in cinforatiny wit pubic cpioioa upon this subject, very large reduction+, indeed, have been made in the entree of tho last two years from the mai tastes proposed previously. Tee amount of the reductions in the army from the estimates—l am not now *peaking of the actual diminutioe—is 501.00 W , in the navy 2,102,0001., in the ordnance 650,0001.; makhg a total reduction, as Cll3l. pared with the estimates of 1849, of 3,281,0091. Now, that is certainly not the actual reduction, but if you were to take the actual reduction a• upwards of 2,090,9001.—end at leas than that amount, it cannot, I think, be stated—it cots shoe that considerable pains have been taken to reduce the min easy mai naval expenses of the country. (Hear, hear.) New, sir, with regard to the civil es:mates, it certainly appears to us that as nevem" the doted.' of the public service • government has far better means of eel me • reduction in the different establishments than any committee of this house could have ; and I think this is proved by what has tak n pl me with regard to the inquiries which we have instituted of late years into the T y, the Home-Ala, and various other office'. So farm appears on tte general eurtace,it ceeaot be said lb it there was a v- ry extravagant number of per eons e mployed in the several offices, or that the salaries paid wers exorbitant. But yet, by a minute examination, made ty Mil, ial persons, into the duties performed, it has been found possible to make very considerable reductions in the offices which I have mentioned, and in valises other r fli ,a. I will mention a few of the instances in which re ductions hove been made. la the Treasury, two chief elerkships, one senior clerkship, and four juni .r clerkship* nave b, en abolished ; ant, including ena eller reductions, 'bore ht" been • net saving of 5,3151. In the ,flits of the i'ey mad er-General,the Audit-. ffice,snd the it OM. office there has been effected a saving of upwards of 23,0001. a year; end, at the same time, by putting some of the clerks who hail lens duty into parts of the office white the duty is ye ry heavy, the complete . ffiolency of the sire cc has been Main. eased ; and, to far at least se thew officsa ars concerned, there has been no want ct et:caret to the gene raj buskins of the country. 1 he reductions which have been made in the Treasury in the last thirty years have keen very con siderahne I have mentioned the redue ions which have been effected in the last two years. But I find tit et in 1827 there were 18 persons holding office in the Treasury, and se. cetivino 42,9001. ter annum. In 1860 the same duties RN performed by '29 canons, who received 24,6801., being a re ductless of nine persons and of 42 per c rec. on the entire amount of the salaries. It thus appears that the duties at the Treasury in this country are performed Ity 29 persons, receiving salaries 'mooning in the whole to less than '25,0001. I own it appnars to In, that, eemidering the muli. Meilen duties of the Treasury, considering the various re ports which they have to consider, and the importance of the decision' which they have to pronounce, I do not believe titers can be shown in any eethary, either of Beretta or of America, an example of duties being so well per ormed at so +mill a mot to the public. (hear.) Awl, sir, in saying this 1 enact but notice fora moment the comments which are male from Hari to time on the ; erformeess of their duties by the pubic officers of this country-1 mean those who hold permanent situatio s. (Hear.) Of late, especislly, it has been said by a vire clover but a very whimsical writer in this country that the public offices of U it country form an Aegean 'P.M', which requires a Hercules to cleanse it. (Laughter.) Now, my belief it, that never were public I duties performed more x alously, more efficiectly, witn more intelligence, or at a smaller emit to the state, than those which are performed by the holders of public offices in this country. in the Colonial-ollice there has very lately been an inquiry. The result has been submitte d to my' noble triend at the head i f that deportment, and he is of ' opinion that the proposals made will mmbine efficiency with economy. The Foreign-talc., and the other offices, are from time to time subjected to similar reductions. Bat othe r reductions have been made 0 late years: for example, in the custenes, and in what wen formerly the department et the Heise and Stamps. I will state to the house calumny what has been done ; but 1 cannot go into the d e tails of each office. The reductions which hate been carried into effect in the customs department, from the Ist of ' January, 1849, down to the present time, corm rehetd a ! reduction of one commissionenhip at 1,290/. a year, • pro speedy, reduction of the next vacant commissienership i , • ! eating of a surveyorgeneral, an inspector - general, an n , speetar-general of tho coast pearl, an seeishot solicitor both ' in Dublin and in Edinburgh, and a romietien in the sal try ' of the solicitor and in that of the militant s dicker. Toe reduriou under them beads alone is 5,10d1. Various other reductions have bean marls as the result of inquiries which have been carried on officially at the Customhouse, amounting altogether to no lees than 64,7911 a yr sr. It is intended that there should be a reduction of 28 chile' in the long room, by which there will be effected a saving of 6,9151. Therefore, with regard to that department at least, tot re has not Men any negligence in carrying into effect reduc tions. The excise and stamp" formerly comprised, with other boards of inland remoue, a very large estebliehment of com missioners; and them who keew anything of utlicialpetrunage must be aware that the office of commissioner of revenue is not the least sought after by those who wish to enter into the public service, without having gone through the loner ranks of that service. In 1792 the various boards connected with inland us consisted of 38 cemmiuitinen. The present beard consists of a catirman, a deputy chairman, and six junior COSllll3iPlOrittl, and tie saving which bas been effected in the salaries of COMl2lllll.4lere and salaries alone is upwards of 36,090/. a year. The rceluctien which has been made within the last two years is lacewing very considerable. When the officers of the excise and the stamp; anti taxes consisted of two separate boards, there were twelve commissioner, two chairmen, two deputy chairmen, and eight junior cam missimen ; end the united salaries of that dilates amounted to 17,1004. a year. The consolidated board waists of one chairman, one deputy chairman, and six junior commis simen who ore, on the occurrence of eh* fiat vacancy, to be reduced to five. The salaries of the reduced establishment Recount to 11,6001. a year, showing a saving of 6,6001. per annum in those hosed alone. But then the mime in the boor I is, in point of moue y, but a small part of the reduction which has actually bet n mode. The er nielidation has led to a much larger reduction. There has been • r. duetioo of a secretary at 1,5001. a year, a Eoliei or at 2,0001. a yo tr, a receiver general at 12(1(4. a year, • compt ru ll erhenera l a t 1,0001. a year. The whole saving effr eted up to the present limo, including the principal officers and the din Vitiators, la 37,1901. But beyond this 1 should state that the number of pen es employed having been 9,083 in 1 833, it is now 7,0.. 1 9. The 'mount of the salaries in 1833 was 962,000/. ; but year it was 713,0001 ; being a reduction of 247,1741. Now, the• v. ry oontioerable redaction his been made mitirely by means of the govern sent proposing enesaures which have received the menctionof the house, but which did not require the resolution chick I the hon. member fur Buckingh *manner means to pr °pontos , if the government had never thought of redaction by mean", at their own disputal. [ rho ceaneellor of t . • Bach. quer here whispered to that mole lord.l I hear that what I have Just stated Is the amount up to last year. 1 have here the last amount made nut, which shows that the decrease as compared with 1833 is 2,170 persons, sad in solaria 236,9501., being more than a quarter of a million of nosey. Is the tense of the mead year the *hair mut of the Bard of Works is lea bees true. leered to milieney duties ; there was immediately a reductios of else olio Ia that establishment. Is the same way there have been caw Mused this year from time to time; and the effect of such reductiou, serried on for a number of years, mast of Down be very eoasiderable economy In the publie myrtle. (Rear, beer.) Now, sir, I think I sh ou ld hate, la propothig this committee, that I propose it as it might have bees proposed la 1798, or is 1 7, or In 1830, with re ference to the duties performed In these various °Bess, and not with the view, which some gentlemen mesa to have takes up very warmly, that there is at present each a deereue in the expftees which belong to office, that It is possible, by atini some male which they fancy in their heads, to make at ones a sadden and panel redaction in all public offices. With regard to this view I think many objections would occur to the committee to its being carried into effect. In the first plats it would be gate absurd to say that you mutt go by what might happen to be the present prim of cern or bread in the market. (Hear, hear.) This would be Raking a tariff of salaries by 1850 when you might in another year have corn at the price at which it stood in 1847; auks on such a principle, you must vary the sail-its according to the search, or the plenty of extraordinary years. (Rear, hear.) In the neat place, If any cenunittre went into this question of reduction they would be obliged to consider not merely what was the reduction in the price of corn at the time, but what reduction there was in all three expetc s which persons in public' dams have to defray, and whether with that view any large reduction could be !made. Now I have had before me to day an account in detail of what are believed to be the events+ of a clerk receiving a salary of 1501. a year; and, in looking over the items, I have not found abwe one or two, and those ate amongst the least considerable, in which in fain any reduction is made. lam speaking now with regard to them who are in the perma nent service of the crown, because it is with regard to them especially, I think, that the house will have to consider whether any reductions eau be made in the public establish ments. chaps I need hardly notice another notion which hae been lately started, namely, that the public service: would be better carried on if the persons who had to pert .rm that service were altogether removed from parliament, if they had not seats either in this or in the otter hone, of parliament. It is obvious that such a proposal is quits inconsistent with the machinery of our mode of government. Unless you have persons in this and in the other house to defend the measures which have bees adopted, and to puss on and support the legislative measures which are intro-luced, it is quits impossible that there can be any sort of harmony or any good undentanding between the majority of the members of the houses of par dement and the executive government. We had a strong instance of this In an attempt which was made, I must say with the purest desire fur the public service, and in which I was concerned, as one of the member, of the government ; I refer to the estabLshorent of the board for the administratios of the new poor law. I can answer for it, that nothing could be more disinterested than the choice made by the government of Lord Grey, of persoos to fill the office of commissioner; but every member of this house must be sensible that the having an office of adminis tration, which could not mike its own defence in parliament, and, at the same time, the having a secretary of state to defend the administration of the low, wi . hcut being himself aware of the various details which hail to come before the Ward, led to a quantity of complaint—very often undeserved complaint—which occasioned such • distrust of the board, as was most injurious to the administration of the important law which was placed under their discharge. It was pro posed two or three years ago, as the result of experience, to alter that system. The system was altered; and under my late lamented friend, ildr. Charles Boller, and my right hon. friend, now the President of the Poor law Commission, no coot, aunt Wit ccly has been made by the public. The if -big lord concluded by moving for a select committee, to inquire into the sal • and emolumeLts of offices bell during the pleasure of the crown by members of either House of Par lire-lent, voted in the annual estimates, also into the sal • and emoluments of judicial offices in the Superior Courts oi Law and Equity in the United Kingdom ; and into the retiring pensions allotted to the judges, and also into the expense of ditiumatic establishments charged on the conso lid ited fund. The question having been put, Mr. DISRAELI route move as an amendment : " That to home is in possession of all the infoimation requisite to revise and regulate public salaries; ;het parliamentary com• mittees of inquiry under such circumstances would only lead to delay ; and that it is the duty or the government, on their own responsibility, forthwith to introduce the measures that may be necessary for e ffe ting every reduction in the na tional establishments consistent with the efficient di:charge of the pablic service." but when he learnt, in common with the house, that her Majesty's government had for a coeliac fable period of time been employed in effa'ing considerable reductions in the public expenditure, the qe•s.ion arose in his mind, why did nut the nettle lord persevere in the course which he hut so sue ces•filly prosecuted—why had he come down to ask for a committee of the House of Commons to discharge a duty which, according to his own account, had hitherto been so successfully discharged by the goternmeat ? (Hear, hear.) He thought the speech of the 'Wile lord was rather a vindication of the principle which he (Mr Disraeli) presumed to bring under the consideration of the house, than one which autherled the motion made by the noble lard that evening. (Hear, hear) He thought the house would agree with him, that it was difficult is extract from the noble lore's speech ant thing very precise and clear, as to the principle which iefluerced the noble lord's conduct on that MAMAS. Ti e noble lord had, however, dwelt amply on premed nts, end through the precedents they might perhaps arrive at the prieciple by whieh the government was actuated. Tree noble ford had spoken o' committees of the house on the estimates foe the public service. He (Mr. Disraeli) would not remind him of the unwi helms felt by the government at the time to make any such reference. The estimates hod not been altered, and fortunately the government had not quitted o ffi ce. ( Be ar , bear.) As fer as the motion of the node lord was con screed, t.e woe at a loss to gather whether it was the opinion of the government that, with respect to these particular branches of expenditure, they wee. I I sure, ptible of reduction or not. If it was the opinion of the government that they were nct susceptible of reduction, go. eminent was playie.g with the Howe of CJITOS.W.B• ' but if they were of opinion that they were sureeptib.e o f reduc tion, government wou l d have arrived at that conclusion on proper inquiry and meters r• fle:tioe ; and all that was re quirod of the government was to act upon the inveetigadon, upon that inquiry, and u; on that reflection, in giving the a tyke that the House of Coe.mons had authorised—the course which they, in their wiekm, thought it best for them to pursue. There was an essential diffor• ace, therefore, as far as preceeent WAS concerne I, elthough he relied on the present occasion vary little on precedent, for, in his mind, a great constitutional question was invoiced in the question of this night ; but, as far es precedent was concerned, there was no analogy between the two cases—between the instance of a tuiffiste r who produce el an estimate, and laid his opinion before the House of Commons, and a minister who mi n itted himself to no opinion, and celled upon the House of C ;morons to perform his work. He was of opinion then that they had sufficient information in the first place to revise and regulate all retain; we had that information from the documents to which the noble lord had referred, and the series of re ports which was trought under their considera tion was in his mind an argument against the motion ef the noble lord, and in favour of the amend ment which he wee about to propose. They had other information, they had every year the names, the salaries, of cII those offices brought annually under their consideration. There was not one individual who filled any of these offices whose name we did not know, end whose zeal we had not experienced. Not only as members of par liament, hut as men of the world, they could not help being able to form an opieion, founded on the informaiou which existed in their time, upon the eaters of the duties which these individuals performed. He wsnted to know how, if they were to aerie to appoint this committee, they were to obtain more information? Would they summon the judges before them? The noble lord avid, "Of course." Of course he expected the committee had the privilege of the summoning. Would they examine the judges as to the expenses of their circuits ? Would they make them produce their tavern bills and vouch er,? Would they call a anent counsel before them and ex amine them as to the amount of their professiunal income ? Would they summon their clerks to produce their (re books ? It was impossible they could contemplate anything so indecorous and indiscreet. But, the government might obtain this interenatiun from the best sources ; they might hold conversatien with the higheet judges; government couel equally acquire knowledee as to the amount of income ob• tinned by two of the mist eminent members of the bar, because they had sitting by them two of the most eminent members who could inform them. Government were a por tion of the how ‘, and the information of the government was the information of the house, and government could have all the Won:scion which they were seeking to obtain by a select comneittee. How noel' they investigate the sub ject of diplomstic establishments? Would they sum• mon limbs seders from Cozstantinople, Vienna, land Paris? Would they examine them? Would they have other masters of the diplomatic hierarchy brought from Germany tone ex 'mined b fore the Howe of Commons ? or would they do a much mere easy and satisfactory Wog, awn mon the t ohle lord the S metary of State? The noble lord would give amble, correct, and complete information. They would have the advmanee of dealing with a minister per fectly acquainted with all the details of his office, they could hay, no opinion of the good they might secure. Sup pose the noble lard, instead of ginlsg this evidence, would produce a bill. (Hear, hear.) We should have a mere speedy result of hie experience and more ehesply effect those results for the economy of the service which they all so much desired. The noble lord, in adverting to his ream lution, had, from a mieeppre 'tension, entirely miscon ceived she menoii g of the latter p iffiest. The :Ode toed seemed to think that, in laying down an abstrect declaration, it was the duty of ministers te introduce measure. diet might be compatible with the efficient discharge of the public • , that he (Mr. Dia testi) had attempted to impress upon the house, that her majesty's ministen were guiltless of any attempt at redu.:- 'ion • hut rosily the amendment he was about to move, was perfectly Irrespective of what ministers had done in put times. Ile avid that whatever reductions in these estab lishments were necessary now to be accomplished, it was t h e d u ty of einisters at once to announce, to come forward and propose them. That was independently ot the past exertions. lie was perfectly aware that in ettempt leg to offer opposition to a measure of this kind, which came forward in a very plausible shape, but which he was induced to believe that the house would, after due consideration, c wider to have an insidious ten deney, that he had difficulties In arguing against a proposi tion on its surface so flattering to the feelings of the House of Commons, which seemed to delegate the authority of the Howe of Cetemons, which seemed to increase the power and authority or this assembly ; but he would ask the, house METROPOLITAN SEWERS. Lord EERIEOISW (iWitasweriiS7iSejamin Sall) said that the Metropolitan Commissionen of Sewers had not come to a declaioprei the principle of drainage for that put of th e metro north of the Themes. SUPPLY 0 WATER TO THE METROPOLIS. Sir B. HALL wished to nut a qusluon to the Right Hoe. Baronet the Secretary of Slate for the Home Department, in refereece to the supply of water to the metropolis. Th, right hon. baronet bad said, previous to the Mater racist, that he was awaiting a report, and that until such was Men lobed co step could be taken. Sir O. GREY stated in reply, that be expected the report would be ready in about three weeks. STAMP DUTIES BILL. Sr H. WILLOUOHBY enquired it it were the intention of the Chancellor et the Exchequer to postpone the Stamp Duties Bill ? He thought it very duirabir, u owing to its late publication, many honourable en mbar, not understand ing it, would wish to uqua . nt themse:vrs with its proviai.ns The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER should say he thought it very inconsistent to postpone a hill which had been axed for &certain day. The amended bill hod been the result of very general communication ; and, as far as he nix denstood, aloe. tcnihs of tie ohj,ctious that had been previously made were met by the amended bill. Under these circumstances, and considering the greet stagnation that would result to tree by p Istponeicvnt, they would be compelled to bring the bill on on Monday evening. There was no al.ele ion whatever in i:s principle. Mr. DIULLINGS said there were sevtral omissions in the new bill, ard, ther.fore, it would be well to postpme it until they were Ail. d u:.. Toe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER considered it most desirable on that ground to take a di‘eunsion on the measure at ones, that these omissions might be pointed out. (Laughter.) MISCELLANEOUS EXPENSES. Ice ri ply to a qui stion from Mr. Hobli, as to when the miscellaneous estimates would be laid on the table, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that they would be laid on the table in a few days. MR. ANSTEY AND MR. SMITH O'BRIEN. Mr. ANS CET complained that a letter (on private busi ness) addressed to him by Mr. W. Smith O'Brien, then undergoing the punishment of transportation, had bean opened by Sir William Denison, and forwarded to Lard Grey, from whom he (Mr. Anstey) received it in that way. He then begged to give conies that he would on Tueslay text move a resolution on the subject, to the effect that the clu 'lion called for the t scrutiny on the part of the house. ♦RCTIC EXPEDITION. Mr. HUME moved ir 711;;ccoTuif07tie charge for the purchase, repair, end outfit of vessels now fi flog for the arctic ripe lition, and also a statement of an Nada due or claimed by rivets builders, for hudliog and alterations of the Messer', Greenock, an cl Simoorn, and any other sums claims tl fur any steam ships for her Majesty's navy, ep cilying the names of the 'marls and of the i,uilders, the price originally aimed, the price charged by the said builders, the toms paid on se , unlit by the Admiralty, and the balance 11111 claimed. PUBLIC SALARIES CO TIES. Lord J. RUSSELL —Sir, I am now abeut to move the. appointment of a select committee to inquire into the sola rise of the various public departments, civil, judicial, and di plomatic, with a view to report what reductions, Vany, may ne fairly made in their amount. It dots appear to me thec a question of the kind requires the exami ation and deciaion of a committee, bemuse heretofore committees of this house have had various questions, connected with the public esta blishment' of this country, submitted to them. (Hear, hear.) In 1798. a committee was appointed to inquire into the cavil esublishments of the country- and in their twenty seventh report, referriag to the judicial eat iblishment, the salaries of the Lntd Cnancellor, the Master of the Rolls, and other judicial tune sontries, they recommended various redactions in the salon,. connected with the courts of law. In 1818 and 1828 committees of inquiry were appointed alto, and after the committee of 1828 had inquired into and considered the milk iry erablishment, Lord Althorp, in November, 1930, proposed the appointment of a committee to inquire into 'Haim pain to persons holding offices at tit. pleasure of the crown. Lord Alth .rp, on that occasion, de clared that he made the proposal for • committee, bec ause, although the government wee prepared to undertake the responsibility ut any redue , ion they might make or oast sider ex,oedient, be yet thought it better to have a 110111111111. tee of iadependent members of that house to inquire into the salaries paid these onions respectively for the per humane. of their several duties (Hoar, hear.) In 1848, a committee was appointed to inquire into the various mili tary establishments of the country, which branch of the service performed its duty most efficiently to the canntry ; and in following up them precedents I now proceed to move the appointment of a committee to inquire into the civil duties ; and which heretofore engaged the attention of men of great experience and ability. (Hear, hear) Sir, with respect to the first object of the committee, namely, the salaries of persons holding office during the pleasure of the crown, and having seats in parliament, very considerable reductions were proposed by the committee of 1830 ; and the subject ha. again been under the consideration of a committee which sat • very few years ago on the nn ece'. laneoes expense.. At the lame time every person who has watched the proceedings here must be aware that on fro quest omasiou there have been proposals to reduce, by some 10 per neat, the salaries, or to diminish the number of officials receiving emoluments in remuneration for the melees which they perform by virtue of their abet How ever si-, I think it far .better that a querion of this kind should be considered bin committee of independent mem bers of this house, than decided by the government of the country. (Hear, hear.) Theielore I think it desirable that there should be • sew inquiry on this part of the sub ject and that we should know the opinion entertained tic an independent committee with regard to the salaries of to the performance of the duties in the va rious offices. (Hear, hear.) In melting his proposal in 1830 Lord Althorp said that, whilst toppled to extravagance, he yet catstier.d it desirable that the higher sad superior offices of the state should not be cones iii vilely to persons of large private fortunes—(hear, hear)—hut that the official salad's should be such as to enable individuals of adequate capacity, appointed to office by parliament, to un dertake these offices without detriment to, or encroachment on, their private fortunes. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, in the present instance, the committee will have to consider what line they will draw as regards the various t Mete, with a view to guard against reductions which may be ruinous to persons of small rivets fortune, should it happen that, by the favour of the crown and the authority of parliament, they shall be appointed to Aloe. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the second part of toe motion, that which relates to the 1411,10 of judges, it is a oonsiderabl • time since there ha been any inquiry upon the sutiset, In 1831, when Lord Dimmest was appemted Chief J twice of the Court of B nob, it was proposed that he should have that high office with 8,0001. • year, which he consent e d to se cep., and which he received during the time that he held that of 8,41; but there has been 1111 regular ditosion icy paella. well sa4 wisely Is seaside, whether the e of tiie warshabse were that to which he had . , i 4 might net lather have this tendency. authority of the beam, instead of int let se see in what position the if they weeded to this motion of the appolated the committee to which so m been made. la the first place they had seeaitem. He had not the slightest clout one well aware of the formation and t 11101111hitta• of this description. He would be a peeked eassnaittee. That would be ci It would be a wall-arranged committee, mittos, the majority of which would r who had poLtisal feelings, a live' the policy of her Majesty's it was very poestlit that thou who of revision, sad regulation, and not public establishments, would net find the come to any resolution favourable to those vanes another point--tuppou the commit' fairly, suppcee the committee to come t hos. gentlemen bad much at heart, wilt more serious portion of the motion of the could only come to resolutions which opinions of acts of parliament; and the CI chequer would be able to answer this there was another thing which the house, to the motion of the government consider. What be wanted to home was this, not to be led precedent cf estimates referred to a cow tike so false a view of the character of t 1 mons es to suppose that the duties of the were to be "mat they were in the day, Stuarts. On the contrary, he felt that that a great deal of the power of the stew tred in this assembly. He did not erudite the House of Commons had over the poi contrary, he deplored that of late years, ass the reform, the power of taxation had The House of Commons had to deal oil' the public expenditure; and he believed impolitic for the Home of Commons to Ms., to have permitted the sugar duce annual vote. He told the house they so mistake if they permitied Winters, r dents of estimates, to agree to the the house now to cou'ider what most what the inevitable consequence of they agreed to the motion of wo s teme might lee the information seised on all those circumstances q tali any measures of the government, and merits of their proposition—whatever mi tion government might posies irrespecti as members of the house, if the re mod one thing wee quite clear, they must in. if they had no previous knowledge whoe would be satisfactory to the country but tion of these subjects. The house had three subjects, which required a em ledge which he could hardly fis could supply. (Hear, hear.) The be most qualified to decide epee salary to be paid to a member of offices under the crown, would be not q salary. whereas the man most competent eial salary would he utterly lo!, when complicaled questions coniyeted with c blishments. That Ming the cue list romances as regarded the committee ? If to sup, me that the committee would i labours. No one would suppose We should have on the table II had received. At the commencew would oak to sit mode ' and cents had heard • groat deal ot thir gr. at es: whether our countrymen multi comp. foreigners, there would be no pr , du country could exhibit which would produced by this committee. ("He, Then he said to the members who were s he • revision and regulation of tax, consistently support tne motion, which inevitable result, when it inc is the po, on their own risponeibility, furnish, information they $ mused, and which grey, was pouested by me tubers to do Let government cease ',mud with fr, frank manner express their opinions ups us the advan'apof their know:Wean . their preliminary knowledge at once inn three.important subjects. Woo could dou the first minister ' who had beet a mete or 40 jeers, who besides that had alwaj kr studies, and given to c oat all questions connected with the House It be chose it, in one moroins, pew., ti to parliamentary salaries? Toe cp aupy the committee for men Ls. in the home mare qua:i,.ed tLkll the nol questiors as to diplomatic atrvicem, and these bi le bought in at once; and it i the government there eh .uld b• re !tic then it ought to have teat hr..ught c hear)—and upon th.ir own tcym.si' stra4htforward accompli hang that whie'. •ruull he :a sad satisfactory t•r the h..usc end t` . .e advrrt to shat was a limper:lnt cot wend I he the inevitable c n .eitt no of business in the I . suss f tb, 010 ion of the miniver. The n• terred to the 1220 . 1 to mate by nil i at her for Oxford ; he had done him 011 honour of referri..g to the a•.tice of rc( given. N-,w, he wss net at this moat the details of the pr , padtion of L' , for Oxford; but he had this 1c.0w1e.41 forward character, that • e wa• Lanvin( taken up the qn.stim in an idle m I OCe2pled hi% considerati,a for a caLsidel his knowledge at his business like hal+ perseverance, that whs•ever might be ;L. when it was pn:d•ec.d, he could n it was a well c•msi.lered and well asked wish what chance of success MI; f•r Oxford introduce to their which he intimated last year, and w: - dc, interval he bad most seri icily coneie chance of succese was it to be •uhmit• Commons, if be was to be told by thi there was a committee up stairs quire into the subject, and th , eel non of the kind could be seceded lord had also adverted to his notice of r•• , a taunt that the notice he gave was the which the noble lord hod given. TI which arose from his most sudden and n Many weeks before the notice of govern, that it was his intention to bring forwe was always of the opinion that, if redut establithments were to be effected, buil proposed by those who we: e masters of ! to the different trenches of the admi who could lay those details before the ht: with confidence call upon the how (Cheers.) He certaioly did make the noble lord reterred, and he should very the question taken up by the for one, was ot the opinion the measures of retrenchment were brat measures which they would Lave most t way of considerable difficulties would At involved in departments ef the nature te terred, and would eenscqut title be take; went. Ile ventured to give that notice, the difficulties that it would have to cent was nothing more irksome than to site: propose reforms, particularly when one or was what was culled a mere privets mt in any important branch ot the public to matte service was one to which many gent respecting which there was a very precut able rt trenehment must be made consist gard to the public service, but, as the cular service were not et familiar to tbt matter, of a domei:ic character, there w. in meddling with that propositirn. _ . --- - . - fate of the amendment it was not toe him in bringing it forward, he did so beer lieved it was one which, if adopted, wouli of the house, the credit of :he adaginistr. condnth to the welfare of the pubic 'en and cries cf Divide.") Sir B. HALL congratulated the house achieved by the principles of troceosay, whet the point in dispute was not the propriety trenehmint, but the most efficient method it. Comparing the propositions laid dot matt and Mr. Disraeli, he decided in ft committee, but thought the range of its been jadieiousty extended. Mr. HUME (after loud cries for a do peopoeition of the noble lord consisted of which it was the duty of the house tt first place the noble L rd's propssicum committee to inquire in't, alp Mastics a offices held durii.g ple..sure of the cro , either house of parhamtht voted in to That gave the committee very much scot: reductions. It continued to say that tin inquire also into the salaries and eon officers in the superior courts of law United iiingdoit, end into the retiring the judges. Here, again, they could way of reduction, and it was Pi should innuire also into the c made establishments charged on the . . Oa the whole, the reduetilt which cJ three diflerent departments would not II of the reduction which was looked tor. made a very strange speech, and showed could possibly take place. noble to some large reductions whick bad t in one department, and it appeal the noble lord was now comes rather suspicious circumstano.e. celled upon tto heuw to remember thi when the Chance for of the Each. quer get to th , house, ar.d stated all that 111 do, he (Mr. Hume) rtae and asked the C chequer who' her the house wee to untie' the whole amount of reduction vi/ went wore prepara a to make. the Exchequer said that was all, that answer with the proposition night trout the noble lord h. Dialling that he came to the unavoidt there was no intention. as far as the Ole' (*rite& to make any fur her r.citicson. the committee appointed and prepared I T ho th :a t:i r e: f t ene of d? the ntiwhetheroa husdnencym—uctob referents had a: h l o o 0 e t f w ir ay bo a t t r anh h , b e i dai n tdt a it ". eh t u t ht o o u l aiv reference. h e d ei e n r n eo : t al 1 m mu woulditt e i t o n oi t ti Now tht h . , i.. be 4_ d . . 0 o I 4'°' old :oi:mufstwndtwlll daysre d t hhbdo:; : ou:ls ' erul o le.ew o idi )bn g t- o f t" n it r el o bwr not ° e ‘ t hj , :t a o m h eth e enth. l a i icle n i di I 'l t t( to I t a YtIgA: : It n ip: . 11 aYTuati w wil ul llic i : ° as :6- h 4t d i ' 'h: 'e:'bdt would t e e al with w e e m re a il i t i 1.. f.,, o ' ii -' ,, Y lively sym pa t h y "'W- en ' In that w"11 the Chancellor of t ae . the ✓ those atatennira l':t; house, before they • Bu- littera, would no w'el'll'ed ta impress on tht s led away by the a commi t tee. Do n nation • f d c. w e t! l'l h ellori' m l'll y outaahtd , dutie s tod a tila att o il:l: u s itied .r ts l ‘ ) t wh i hw i o ul Iv a i ee , '":"l i : m a e : h i PP : tiul iii:t h se i n: , 'lri' a l l:T y l : Pie r, l ';":t.r.ii4' ll 4;6 t, " this t p, a .d motion. d .• rote .t e , i , , i d ir T g u lui cl e, c , ra n a, l , ‘ . ' . n , l w i th.m 4 a . s t t ii b err e , d t b h i, eii ii oo tr u , d , u . : , t ~,a k , ,e . ..1 . , the publae purs e • a /.. I Of this COMMA /e • of the noli'e I • F.1 . 1 f I qaolifyinie them 6 ri '!'" ver might he the thtOrtn ' a e • expective of their 4.ustron- t , ma:Wee was app .in... 1 oat investinte de tom , y but a complete eta ' " had now to tzaminenilinit'a. a combiaation of kn. w y flatter biased they . The man who ar,,ul • l upon llill aurnin . . • . t r of parlia ment h ~a.,, . n i. i I t ''' .1 ' e n a cwna t ?euellthe . ‘ i . :ta t e m rl i ni ti 'ris : 4 t b : t euwi d i , DawLz . h r :vt'l i cu' Fe s . fidu . t o l't o c ee c''01f1,:nt11:: e ntered , 1 It i I : :: .et f , I : t h , lt. L l 4a‘s:lll:- I l i, , •:;:i'i• , , t7i;u l . , c... ,, '' . ''...1.'.‘'''n.,...:!''...::.1• , 1 rldas tlia evi t d h n y , ' .... compete wi.h cuter,. , • r -, ilu don Is hica a '.a : luM ego el the Pm - . • (" liar, " au: 1i...1.•.., ' wa - elitt.utif there .. • I tazati.o, b.., v i i, , : which mud i.i I • , ~.. the power of c,c. f,.... • which omen ic .11 •!•••• • - to do wto • wael.“.e., ith fraLlei i •s, a u . , a upon h.. c a .'j rf• /SIM. tin run ...-.. re hate, duce a :. • d dou -, tth - ....4.:i. :. always ha,.l a :sir. : . , c os:itufinial .•, : , • . oar. Or 47.;•tt..1 4., 4 tl.. the oh ~ .. ..••1 . • . to que : . • n •• •1 •• • . Li. if .1.• v. , /.. • , :a r.ob:e ; i..e,t.i. , . •-••-• and tea. h v. - ri z•. • .. • . 1 it i... was :I - • .. :n• .. • e . .uc•i•, , , il Cr -e ,re • ght on Ini • . - i t poissiniii.): ,'3' 1 . . I 1.. C..., C, tn• 1' r • - • be :or .:.err I 0 . . e c wary. L. • 1 rot em.aideret.on, t 1 itt rte., o• t'., c i thy an:..le I • a n.,01e lira I ~. . t if . un. men' :he ^ -. O ( N.II'• Dilifl, .: /1• . • or motion w .. h • . e a noint,.t are,... t un•l • 1 , hon. Ir.c:lL tic" ta . c r t atlo lge of hi, .tr. • r; I on r.vinced ta• he :-.. : • • ni o 1 ; 11 , • ',lea -: • 1 I Lataer. -„ .1. tan,!...1:•1 •• 11 hal-i:s -:: I, i..dt :.•••-. e be ;tie op :nice . f •!-.‘• : •0 FI 001 C. C (1 - 311 .. . t rat • b d 1 . ,,,,..!, d pr•••, , . , I . lu . n . coui ! It. - . n. min -r esinst.ler.t,a a ne 1 • tl el et: - .uh, t, el- , .•,•. i•, - 0 CODfl de rt ;J. •.V:•:- n -' ibmit'ed to th Ft , I si ty the heat mi., - - b Cain appointed t.. ci th. refore no ;ro • • ti :ceded to The I• • of Er of rotion. a• d h 1 -, ' the day at! y r tn., I al I. That w.O a c:: ill • 11, and conttrai•!: I ,/,. tvernereat. he ha-: - ••,,. el ei forward the in. ti i . 'l • reductions is a• y .1 :. • fr lb midi recucti c. n ,,• • ..; rs of the detail, •.::, .: e. admici,lecion — by z• • tl ci he house, and et + c• . . tJ 110115.3 CO attila ; t !"• fc rho notice to 0 nit:. " T I very wiliucly : are • • ! al the gcv.rreo n' I. CC that when 1 -7 a. .. brought taw n!. • of re lost t i grapyle we : • •• ad he those eel : en u • ii tun to which he n -.,. • . rib taken up by the z , - m nobler, Lot %incur,: . • • to a coutind with, r.: • na attemp • in that b.inie • , h t one was on the c,, ,, , -:. • Ct ate member Of piti:lti. to blic service. In , ~ . • th ay gentlem• n ret , :Ts.; . CO Kemal idea that c..•••, ,• dt oneis:ently with a .:1• ! • wI i the detuls of tn. , .. ~ • at o them as t c de . • i --. ar, tre was tatrinte ::...• :". 411 an. Wrist woul 1 !,.• '.. ahint now to ...e.. 2 ,. . " CO to, o b‘eauat he ritic.r. ~ • : al , would curtain the ::••l: .- i t ':: nitration. ant eh ~, . to il: service. t Loul en- : . d., to house on the pr-. r.'• b Of . my, when they found •• : oh propriety et det:rer ~ i . eal method of ' , cooly; • . : by id down by the .. , . Co fin favour of the -. • : p,.ltt its inquiries might --. .- eat a division) said the • Th etcd of three part*. e••• hu me use to consider. In cot two sought tor • ~ a • Ariel and ellivo.1101cat• • 111 crown by m.wl ,, r . • pal Wk in the annual vault , ' • .pi It scope for remotion, . or, lilt the committee sn -.. : th, al emoluments art in:: • Via, law and igu.ty tn . ••• lais i eukt ring ptir: pe :,,,..p cai die:, oa d m e t,a,:h1::,5..i..,., ~. 07 7 ,.. : ,, 1 the cou4lida.... Ill' .. )41;bolilleceljtdowu'Irt.d°:ibhg.hill'itd:TIbt:ei;': ‘, 1 :: : :: : , • . s . :: LF IE :I :.; tad been shod! ... ! Th e appiored to 4101 ; . ear, ming forward ii - • , . th., I. (Hear, tear I ••i Ik", n fee that on the ~ • - ~ 1.1 quer propou...:id ni . • , ki•• at the governor,' I the Chancel.: . r i 4. tfic . i h n " .: I • under...an , tha' ni , ' ' fa., ii which ter •• ' ' I P , se. The OA' , v •• . llloa all, and it he ...,,: vit., ion wnieh cum th. he had to hr,.• , • roue avoidala, C4l.Clusi.• ' pu th f.a e n e : Q :l7c , :aa u t o l i .t 7 .' esecLU'irel