The Express. — London, England, 1849-05-15 00:00:00

bend the speech of the hoe. and lensed geatlemu with that Wks which be probably szpected they would do. (" Hear, bur," and laughter.) It did not appear t r him (Lord J. Sateell) that the hoe. end leased gentleman had entered at all into the subject of debate, or that his speech had any re le uses to the bill before the fosse ; it was rather • striag of reillatioes—a rt of moral IISIOO addressed to them cm ego sateen of kith distress sad Irish pros (Hear.) The his. sad learned geotlemsa's sgs g a i g g k i n a the (ebb of the Frew" hose, which, having bees truss up gag dual for a bog time, soddenly became thawed, sad gave krtb the most subdions made. (L- sad laughter.) He one glad le bear them woad. mina ia that how; best ear sole be would rather the hoe. and leersed gentleman had ihiess some theme that had mot been is repeatedly use leer se the este they wen new diseseekg. (Heir Ism) He ornately should aot tallow the hos. sad horned by saterlog late say defense of the Irish lead tter ea were • suthiest member of prisms seasected with that body, both in that sad the other boom of pulia goons, to undertake that deny. (Hier.) Bet with re- L I R to the Istroarers of belied, he must say that thought the hon. and learned genth e nga b i g oat a very usjust reflection so them when he egg that either from the fault of the goweramest, sr from some other circumstance, they were uawilliag to work sr d to depend for their sub/ogees es their own gunnies and their own indoor". (Hear, hear.) He believed in essay districts they were cab , toe impatient le Obtain work even at the smallest rennuteration—a IFINOSSOfe• you that would scarcely procure for theas the barest subs& tome. In soma places he underreed the labsterere were m olls, sod anxious to work for thek bed may, end he ethers men with families to rapist were say be glad to Mons fur twopeace • day. (Hear, bear.) ners, k wee Doe just to ley that the Irish Woven /eyebolt any Woe earn as that which had bore read to them hy the boo. ead leveed gentleman to induce the to em brou any mesas by which they might Orals, in exchange kr tide lather. not • tiring, bat IMO subsistence. (Hear, hear) The bill before **lowa proposed that a certain seas should be *deemed for the purposes of drainage—suit draissge to e assomplobed partly by the proprietors and occupiers liellassives, end partly, where the, drainage was of • more offsmeivs character, by the union of several ton lab pep .cation, as it appeared to him, neemmsmdsd itself rice grounds—tint, the whole of the mossy so admired IND Ve be expended in laboar—(hr hear); ia Ike weed gbee, It wee likely to improve the ~ soil, std I to toe? the meton of human food from the land ; and, thirdly, that . in a position to give to the hon. gentleman and Ida theilkeents the most ea isfactory proofs that there was ow, prospect of the sums so advanced being folly repaid, prthpal and, interest. (Hear, bear.) The hem member for Waterford bad said truly that in that country and in lend. within within the last 20 or 30 yews, large MISS had bawl mimmeed foe ireful purposes of a similar character—which seam had bent rejoice—and by means of which many fi eld. whisk were parkway if little comparative vale* were now posing wheat and other crops in the meet luxurious pro tean ; and large tracts of land had been brought into an impaved rate of cultivation, by the draining and other im provements a hith the =envy so borrowed from the Eiche r:isle:l carried out. Such having been the result in and Scotland, he did not think they would be adopting a just or a wholesome principle in sates that the mile Wenn ought not, lacier present dramstances, to be applied to Ireland. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman who last spoke had said that they were driving • bargain with th e Irish people that any Jew would be glad le make: that observation reminded him that there was smother gentile to be brought before the house that even tag—(" beer," and • laugh)—which he hoped would not be postposed I miter than was absolutely necessary. (Heer.) HORSMAN contended that the poverty and distress whisk behead was suffering was to • great extent the resoli of Itaglish legial4ion ; and if we were to contribute to her present necessities even much mere liberally than during the last three lean, we should not compensate low for the injustices which our bad government bed heaped s her. He complained of the made by which mi srs sought to relieve Irish distress—by means of these continued grants of public money, unaccompanied by com prehensive measures of permanent improvement; an d en . pasted the charge he bad preferred on • previous evening, that they had neglected the ati.plications of the poor law inspectots for immediate relief, though they were told it we necessary, to save thousands from dying of starmion. la some instances, where 10.0001. had been demanded, 4,0001. only had ban sent ; in others, no notice whatever had been tskes of the applications : ind the consequence was, that numbers were drag daily for want of feed. This, which was proved by the papers before the honer, was dfs graceful to the country in the floe of Europe; and in his opinion a heavy responsibility rested on those to whose neg lect such lamentable consequences were owing. Sir 0. GREY reensikei that the boa. gentleman who had just sat down first complained of the system of grants, sad then that Oda government had notaent sixpences to relieve the distress which existed in the eminent part of Intend. With regard to the first charge, under the circumstances in which some of the onion' in Ireland were placed, ministers had thought it necensty (though in this they sight have differed from the hon. gentleman) to appeal to parliament, to place in their hands • limited sum to enable them to mitt gate the d stress existing in those unions. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the second charge—their having received repeated applications for assistance, and not sending six peace to relieve the distress of these districts, and to save the people from starving, he must tell the hon. putleman now, as he had told him Fri ay lest, that when ha made that charge ea be spoke in utter ignorance of the feets—(hear, beer)— fsg be could not suppose that were It not so be would per ibt such misrepresentations, anxious as he might be to thew so the government all the respond y. Having felt it msrswry to say so much as to the two charges which the hon. gentleman had brought against the government, he would not go into the question of the bill before the house, which had been already discuseed, but he biped these few observations would satisfy the house that the government had pursued • right course with mud to the distribution of the money in Ireland. (Hear.) Mr. KEOGH hoped that as the hon. member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck) bad alluded to him during his abenes, he would be excused for occupying the attention of the house for a moment. (Rear, hear.) Though he had not the pleasure of bearing that hon. member, he had had the opportunity et hearing the noble lord at the head of the government, and he understood that the hon. member for Sheffield, after his usual cast um, lad indulged himself and • portion of the house by abusing every member from Ireland every person is that country, from the landlord down to the humblest peasant. (Hear ben.) The honourable reember bad done him the ' favour to notice the debate which occurred in the house upon the last sight; he had done so in his (Mr. Keogh's) absents. He now told the hon. gentleman that he was far from thinking that he represented the taloas of his English countrymen out of dues as regarded the Irish people. So far from think ing so, he remembered with gratitude the noble generosity with which the people of this country had come forward in the last two sous to relieve the diabetes of Ireland. The country would be able to discriminate between what ought to be the honest indignation of • patriotic senator, and the bilious acerbity of • epit,ful self-tormentor. (Roan of laughter, and bed assn.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER reminded the horns of what his noble friend at the head of the govern sent had said, that he would not defend the Irish landlords, because he felt that to be unnecessary, seeing that he had admitted ea former occasions that many Irish landlords were deserving of the almost credit for the exertions Um had made. (Hear.) After some remarks from Col. Downs and Mr. Moose, The house went into committee OS the bill ; Mr. Beth AL in the chair. Os the Bret clause beir g read, Mr. HORSHAM said that 900,0001. bad been already al located, and he wished to know whether there war to be say limit to the time during which the sum now proposed to be 'detested was to be expended. His objection to the season was this: he did not objet to loans. bat he did to the loans and advances greedy made sot haviag e ho been well applied : and between him and the t n. gentleman the Seereary of State there existe • great difference of opinion on this subject. He (Mr. lionseas) had previously spoken from the papers laid on the table of the house, and yet he had been accused of speaking la imamate. It wee easy to deal in hard words when truths were sot met with arguments. He was sorry to put the right ben. gentleman oat of temper, but he could not, however disagreeable it might be, forbear from elating what he believed to be important. (Hear, hear.) Now, one of the documents from which he quoted was signed by Mr. Nash, who,writiag to the viee guardians, said that " there wee not • shilling at the grant left to feed 20,000 people, and that if money did not come from some serum the deaths, by thousands, from stanatioo in the union wets j ne ,i t .td e ." Again, in • • subsequent letter, it was add that " the people were without food during Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, ' and it ended by saying that " the deaths In vs. SOW parts of the union were daily inereseino, and that for the most part they arose from want and exposers." Sir 0. GREY said it was most irregular to open • long debate of this nature in committect, particularly as the hon. gentleman was not stating fate, but was drawing on his mention and making charges against the germ mint which were utterly unfounded. (Hear.) The charge was, that the government were dispensthe gems and doing hum instead of good. His (Sir G. Grey's) answer was, that they had applie I the funds pieced at their disposal by parliament in the way they thought best for the relief of destitution—that they had done what the hon. gentleman said they had not done—that they had a cceded the 50,000 1 . by 26,0001., and that they had reposed an advance of 100,0001., against which the kw. gentleman had weed, though he now turned round and clisrpdthe govereseut with mg's:dilute. (How) Mr. HORSILAN said that if he had boss the right hon. gentleman was irregular also. Ho b ig = accused of gross minergesentation, although be had not shafted a single word beyond what he had lowed in she Pipers on the table. If the 50,0001. wee not tut*, government ought to have asked for eon sissy, and if they had sot sated foe more, and deaths now ensued, a heavy resposilbility must rest Wu them. The people of Ragland would have gine more ; it was a shameful calumny on that people to say that they woild are money trim ve life .• and be repelled it as • edemay epos their generosty and Chrislimity. (Mom) lb. ROEBUCK said that some explanation on his pot In a araniary. The noble lord at the head of the goyim. IMO lademissed very good humour, and he bad as shim ties is his bke about the hers, although it weenie las bass of Phil. Bat the noble lord had not answered ifs amp— that three yews ago there was distress in losised ; that Primmest knew the earns of it, and were sealed upon to Pima the recurrence of it' and that the distress arose oat d babe wand by the fumbles Ware lithe polite. Now 1 he charted the noble lard with not having met that fuels" with a bold and eonalerate set of inesesn s He him with being frightened—tenified, he might any hamar had no system; with being goateed by DO WO; with baying listened to his own sense and sensibility eel with haring immediately had romans to the lugs traithey of England; and that, having had sash recourse he hadi kik the people of Inked worse thee be aund them. That was his thug% and that the noble Med had sot answered. He did not charge the =hie lord with having improperly applied the ODIUM Of mosey already granted. As to the noble lord's linden' of heart, his generosity, his perspicacity, sad his powers of fe bate, he had nothing to m 7; but, without say asperity 41 manner, he alleged that the dilleallqr of the ease lead set been met la the spirit of a sinesemes I Oaths eillieelly woe praetor now than when it lint mem; *it every resseros had bees reheated, and that the distress of Ireland was ma relieved. He went farther, and said that the noble lord lary hie grants did mischief to the people of Ireland, for he had gives rise to habits which he would find it difficult to check. Where there wee a want of thrift before there wu a double want of thrift now ; and when he was told that these cond. tions had aothing to do with the bill be ach the home, ha wakened that he could not undimmed the meaning of the noble lord's objection. Oa the part Mike English people, he must say that it was sot he the amount they eared, but that the government in applyiee it had done mischief. Bit by bit legislation might do fur England ; but here was ten or twstve mullions of money which the government employed all in one year. He maistained that if prom rly applied the people of Ireland sight with that ems have been set to work profitably upon their own fertile soil. But instead of that, the government bad flung it away in every possible baconsiderate He asked, ought not the educated holy of Irishmen to stand forward in their own country and set the example of virtue in the application of that mitred fund, instead of putting their baad.into it for their ewe purposes' (Cries of " Oh.") Lord J. RUSSELL said that, whim be remarked that the hoe . gestlemaa's spat* had not any lamediate refer ence to this bill, he spoke of it as being applicable to the guava' messesia for Ireland; and, having already had many dimmest:ma ea those .enures, he felt that he should hardly obtain a bearing if he were spin to state what those measures had bees, bow they had been implied, and what were their general results. Bat the hos. gentleman again repeated his qamatieeand forged him somewhat into the eonsideratiou of at, H e observed regarling that hon. gen tleman, end also every Irish member who attacked the go vernment, that he very moth miscalculated the nature of the evil whoa he Weed why there should still be so mush poverty in Ireland. The hon. gentleman alto ether sake rated the magnitude of the calamity. Whether the lank lords' mode of giving leases ; whethee the farmers' mode of paying for labour by a patch of land, aid not money ; whe ther the labourers did well for their own interest in encou raging early marriages ; whether these things had or lied not been, was not now matter for consideration. They all knew they had been, and they knew also that there had bow a stoppage put to them by the decree of providence be the form of • calamity than which nothing could be greater. There was an immense population of three or four milieus living by and dependent on the soil. When the potato failed they were red likely to obtain more employment: on the contrary, lees. When the calamity first &per red, the right hon. gentleman then at the head of the government pro. nosed a total repeal of the corn laws; and, he (Lord J. Russell) thought, wisely. He agreed with the bon. gentle man se to the good reunite of that measure as far as the great body of the people were concerned. But it was not a remedy for the great part of the evil which afflicted Ireland . It we no relief to those who had only the production of the soil to look to, as prices are diminished, not raised. (Hear, hear.) Another year of famine appeared to be approaching, and the government undertook a immure which had been adopted in 1822, and which wss adopted in the beginning of 1848, not, os the ho' gentlemen represented it, a grant of ten millions to p the people of Ireland from starving, but to be carefully and usefully distributed through those local bodies which the best authorities in Ireland considered as the most likely to use it well,—the advance being made upon the creJit of some raised in the district. In 1822 a similar measure had been adopted, but in 1846 and beginning of 1817 the calamity was so overwhelming, that it produced C0134t• quinces far exceeding is importance any slender measure of former years. He woe not blaming the persons o-nneeted with that bill ; but the effect was that them bodies, alarmed perhaps at the prospects of suffering around them, caused immense presentments to be made, and the Board of Works were called upon to undertake gigantic works. It was true that they were accompanied with great abuses, arising, net from the application of vast sums of money, but from the gradual increase of the evil —from the prospect of starvation that presented itself on all sides, unless employment won given, and unless there was a concurrence in those boards in voting large sums for the purpose of the works. He did not deny that there might have bees a better application of the nosey ; but it was impossible for any government to lay what exact amount of cod was deadens% what exact number of pencil applying for assistance were destitute, in what manner 04 sum placed at the dispose) of these local boards would be asked for, or to whet estent the mode of applicatios might be carried. He Lord J. Russells could not imagine any magical remedy or plan so omnipotent as to prevent, in a cenetry whom main subsis tence had been blighted and destroyed for • great part of ~ 0 11 r snegmeive vein, increased distress in the fourth year of the calamity. (Hear, hear.) Undoubtedly he believed that this dispensation had been intended for the good of Ireland. He believed that the social state of that country, which had been so long matter of lamentation, and which was described by the poor law commission of 1833 es one which must ex cite the pity of every one—he believed that it would, in the end, be improved by the calamity which had of late years befallen it. That great suffering must have been endured was necessary to that end. If the government had in sue manner alleviated chaste sufferings, be would be contented with that consolation; but if they could go be yond that, and pave the way for a better order of Hasty; if they could, by measures not clinical in one year, but bit by bit—measures aimed at dif ferent evils, and carried into effect by various machinery—it by such measures they could at length improve the social state, he certainly should be proud of the result. (Hear, hear.) He certainly thought that whatever re each.* might have been justly east upon Irish proprieeors in former times, the great majority of that class were now only anxious to find the means by which they could improve the country and provide for the subsist ent* of those around them. He trusted that those who did not show that anxiety, and had done nothing for the country daring the last three years, would follow the 'sample of the majority. However it might please some gentlemen in that house to lay all the blame en the government, and others who id there ought to be do- mestic legislation for Ireland, to lay the blame on the imps rid parliament, his (Lord J. Russell's) idea was, bad been, and ever would be, that sakes there was harmony amongst the various clasessoteless religious bitterness was aasusged, and the 'amity so often prevailing between landlord and tenant give place to a good understanding—unless all classes united, the highest with the humblest, in endeavouring to elevate the country—it was in vain for the government to propose measures to parliament, or parliament to adopt them, as miserable failure must be their inevitable result. But he believed that that commercial jealousy which bad so Inns indeed England to withhold from Ireland so muck means of prosperity was now at an end. He believed that that poli tical ascendancy which during the last century made the go, Tuning party in Ireland look only to the support of the mino rity, hsd, with its chain of laws, ceased to exist. He believed that them circumstances would in time, and by the °maim of natural causes, finally have this effect. He did believe that we should at length see, and that our children would see still more clearly, that the ems of Ireland was not tropeleis ;shat the people of Ireland. who were reproached for idleness and improvidence, had been beret by adverse circumstances; and that they were as fit for labour, and as greatly endowed with all thew physical and m .ral qualities which lead to eminence, and ends them fit to bear the rule of empire, as aoy people in the world. (Hear, hear.) Col. DUNNE said that he would give no answer to the foul charge of the hos. member for Sheffield, that Irish landlords had put their hands into the sacred fund for the relief of the poor, simply because hie answer would not be parliamentary. Mr. V. SMITH asked whether the 600,0001. now to be voted would be applied to the immediate employment of la bour, or would, as had been the case with former advances, be spread over several years. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the 900.0001., the remaining portion of the 1,600,0001. set yet issued, would not be available for the employment a labour this year. But it was obvious that who. a work was once commenced, it went on mach hang than at the begin ning ; the great difficulty was in the beginning. Alter the first instilment was exploded, the mooed and tuba quent ones went much more rapidly. With regard to the 300,0001., be did not see how it was poesible to apply it in a way different from that in which former epproprianose for the same purpose had been applied. He could not compel gentlemen to drain their land faster than it was ordinarily drained, nor to expend the whole of the 300,0001. in one year were he to do so, they would come to him next p, yea arguing that, as they bad given them the means for beginning, they mast be enabled to go on. The whole would bat required to be spent within a given time, but not in the first year. Mita regard to the sum for arterial drainer, the whole of that was to be expended In ens year. Mr. V. SMITH said that if he understood the right hem. baronet correctly the whole of the 300,0001. would not be applied this year, but only about 100,0001. Mr. BORMAN said he found it stated in the evidence that some proprietors had obtained these advances without Intending to use the money. The Chancellor of the Exche quer had said the other night that that money was allocated, sot expended, and that he had no further power over it. Now, if there was a certain number of propriet in who had taken this money, and were waiting to me how things turned out before they commenced their improvemenes, be wished to know if the house had not the power either to make them taped it within a certain time, or repay the advance, that the Nosey might be lent to ahem, who would make, good (Star, hear.) There certainly ought to be some limitation of time, as in railway bills. The CHANCELLOR cf the EXCHEQUEIL—The an swer to that is, simply, that what the hon. gentleman says ought to be done has been done. I stated the other evening that a great part of the 300,0001. had been edvaneed in that way. Mr. —Still that is sot the gossips. Have those poileseos tire power of keepiog the money back u loug as they like? The CHANCELLOR of the RICHEQUER,—The , have sot that power. I lased eireelar sot long ego, forming those gentlemen whom laichoose to go os spend ing the mosey, that I should t them any more. Mr. OSBORNE )clued of the desultory nature of the distaadas, end said that Waldo to pest gnats was sot MCIMI asked -imbed public 'lnward bat the capital tg with oia bad h larger Si C»11- — t4; do vs Ire- Pm, and ton. and r.dlorda; the boo. raged in been to filament Itrd and not hava - .a land at which at moist employ- ithitand d mun e would member hon. and me of his when be red iaht di at learsei from the m appetite en present to pow fr hunger nd of food ud not ea- THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, MAY 15, 1849. appetite on that occasion. The pest was gems by ; and an boa. gentleman was not justified, because he had been absent from the house sums time, in coming down and renewing a discussion on the ten millions grant which bad been disposed of last year. He would remind tre hoe. somber for Sheffield, who had talked of liking to have money to drain his own farm, that it was perfectly open to make application for aloes. as these advances were not con fined to Ireland, but were male both in E oglat d and Sco'- land. (Bear, hear.) It was therefore invidious to hold up ass country against the other in this respect. Mr. BARNES wished to ask a question of the right hon. the !Chancellor of the Exchequer. He diaelaimed anarti cipation in the feeling ed reseed by the bon. mem ber for Shellield, still it could not be doubted that the people of this country regarded wi.h greet musty than reiterated grants for Ireland, and would expect their representatives to inquire when the money was to come from ? It was 'rue this was nut &grant, but a loan ; bat ready limey most be advanced, and how was it to be obtained ? He, therefore, wished to eels when the Chancellor of the Exchequer meant to pro duce his annual financial statement, which had already been delayed to a period later than wee usual under the former government ? At a period, like this, of great agri cultural didress, and whe n the blockades of several foreign ports were injuring the revenue, this question ought to be answered. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER raid that, in answer to the question where the money was to come from, be would remind the hon. gentleman that he had stated, last session, that expenses had been incurred for the Hal& war, and other m itten, which had bees defrayed out of the moseys in the Exchequer, and which it was necessary to replan. For that purpose, two millions had been bor rowed at the elan of last year, sa the balances applied as above stated were required to meet the demands that would be made on the exch, quer for drainage and other matters. This had placed the balances in the exchequer insult • state that he trusted there would not be the least difficulty in ad vancing this money from the consolidated fund, without e ins on the country to pty a single sixpence out of pocket. As to the annual financial statement, the usual period for bringing forward the bulges was by no means past. He had been azaleas not to make the statement at an earlier period, and for the reason which the hon. gentleman ha d L iven. Had he du* so, he should have been junified in making the state mint more favourable than he should do at the present momeat. The blockade of the northern ports, sad the upended mate of the continent, had given a considerable cheek to that anticipated improvement of trade in which the camusereal world had indulged in the month of January. These elements of uncertainty still pre vailing, he bad delayed making the statement ; ant he hoped the house would sllow him some short delay further before doing so. 01 roam it was d sirable he should niche it with the greatest possible accuracy ; he proposed to make it as soon as possible; but, had be made it in February, he should certainly have led the house into a misappreheneon, not by any fault of his own, but owing to the filament prospect having been changed by circumstances over which legislation could exercise no control. -• Mr. ROEBUCK said that certain (Titles's had recently been accused of "cooking a dividend ; he thought the right hon. gentleman had been taking a leaf out of their book. He said the tax-gatherer would not go round in coosequence of this advance, because he had burrowed the money, and bad in bend enough for the advance. Bet surely, like an honest man, he meant to pay his debts. Therefore, every farthing he had borrowed only went to postpone the pressure ; and he was in reality, at the present moment, "cooking the exchequer." (Laughter.) In answer to Mr. AILLWRIOILT, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he hoped to produce his financial statement within a month. The bill then paned through committee, the blanks being filled up with 300.0001. and 200,0001. respectively. PARLIAMENTARY OATHS BILL. Oa the motion that the house should go into **amine on this bill, Sir R. PEEL rose and said—Sir, I have a question to put to the noble lord cop site as to the effect of this bill on the position of her Majesty's subjects professing the Jewish reli von. I h.d hoped teat it was the intention of ihs govern meat to place the Jews on precisely the SIAS footing, with respect to bete parlament and civil offices, on which all elegies of her Majesty's subj ects , with that single exception, at present stand. Toe law has provided an oath to be taken by the Roman catholic which qualifies him to take his seat in either branch of the lublabre. That same oath, to which the Roman catholic has so conscientious scruples, and takes without the slightest difficulty—which was formed that he might take it without difficulty—gives him, both with retiree, to civil offices and to parliament, a clear and unquestionable right, and qualifies him to hold the office. With respect to the protestant dissenter, and other classes of her Majesty's subjects dissenting from , he Church of England, the state of the law I apprehend to be this. In respect to municipal offices, all parties elected toany municipal office are enabled to taae and make a cer tain declaration, which is a stesstituts for the oath and dents ration against tunsubstantittion, and for the necessity which formerly existed of taking the sacramental test. That same oath or declaration is taken then, both for parliament and for civil office; but in the latter declaraion words art in serted which make it impossible for the Jew to take that de. situation. Thous words are, Ido solsmaly and sincerely, in the present* of God, profess, testify, and, declare, spas the true faith of a Ccrimati, that I will never exercise say of the powers which this office may confer upon me, for the purpose of disturbing or injuring the church as by law esta blished." And the dissenter other than a Romeo catholie, who takes that declaration, is qualified for municipal office, qualified also fur all other offices, provided he takes that declaration within six months. If I recollect right, in the case of municipal office, the declaration must be made within one month ; in the ease of civil offices tenerally it must be made within six months. Still, that is a declaration which the Jew cannot tike. The noble lord relieves the Jew, so far as pulismeat is concerned ; but if this bill rinses in its present. form, the Jew will still remain , disqualified from holding civil office ; awl a question will also arise as to municipal i ffice, because, with regard to both, those words are needed—" I make this declaration open the true faith of a Christian." Now, there may be a question whether the passing of the annual Indemnity Act will mot ca pacitate the Jaw for holding civil offices ; but I, for one, wish to sae the situation of the Jew the same as that of all other dasses—(bear, hear)—and that it should not be noes. airy for the Jew to bold civil office by the precarious tenure of an annual Indemnity Act. (Hear, hear.) I think the manors will be incomplete, unites the Jewish subjects of her st ars placed, both with regard to civil office and to parliament, en the footing on which all other subjects el her Majesty are placed, whether professing the religLon of the established church or any other. (Rear, hear.) If the noble lard tells me that the difficul in of dealing with, Um gneiss are safficieatly great, and that he does not wish to enelmnem the present measure by increasing those minis, I ray I am se desirous of attaining that object which thie measure proposes that I will throw no additional • in the way. (Rear, hear.) But Ido hope that the noble lord does not intend to place the Jew on an less fa. veered oe an y less just footing than the rest of her dejesty's wleede, (Hear, hear.) Iced J. RUSSELL —The bill which I introduced last year, as the right hon. gentleman is aware, was a bill which allowed the Jews to enter parliament, which relieved them trona the words which they object to in the oath, and like wise admitted them to civil offices. That bill was rejected in the other house of parliament. The bill I have introduesi this year is a bill partly upon a different subject. It is • bit applying, as its main object, to a regulation of the oaths to be tekse by the members of both houses of parliament. It pervidis for the oath to be taken by all the meaben of the thumb, and by protestant dissenter, leaving the Roman tatholic oath as it stands; it likewise provides a declaration to be taken by the quaker', ani • form of nth or dicier ties to be taken by the Jews. Ido not think in this bill, wink relates to a seureu subject, that it would be novenae to introduce any proviiion for giving the Jews civil cities; but I consider that it does admit them to the highest pike of the constitution, namely, the power of sitting in the two houses of parliament. And I cannot conceive, if this bill pass, that there will be the carryin g or objection in either house of parliament to the of a measure by which the Jews should enjoy the same privileges as the pro testant dissenter and the Roman esthetics. I entirely egre w ith the right hoc. xentlessan in thinking that they ought OD have the same privileges—(hear, hear); and I washed to show that opinion by the bill which I introduced last year I certainly do not wish to take the bearfit of any hon. member supposing that I do not intend to carry into effect the principle of that measure to its fall extent. or that I do set intend to introduce, soon after this bill shall have become law, a measure admitting the Jews to civil offices. (Rear, bear.) Supposing the bill to be carried in its present shape, the situation of the Jews, for a time, will he similar to that which, for a long period, was the situation of the protestant dissenters. They at in this house, by virtue of the oaths they took, to which they had no objec tion; but they could not bold civil offices, except by virtue of the Act of Indemnity. If this bill pus, there fere, the Jew will be from that time in a situation simi lar to that of the protestant dissenters. (Hear, hear.) But entainly my opinion is, that there ought not to be a disqualification of any kind, and that the Jews soul be admitted to all civil o f in the same way as the d i ssen ters. With regard to municipal offices, I think that Jews are entitled, as the law now stands, to fill all those offices, she- and a member of that persussion has fi lled the office of riff is the City of London. (Hear.) Mr. BANKBS said that he had no objection to that part of the present measare which altered the oaths to be takes by the members of that house, because, in many respects, they had become obsolete, and even ludicrous; a., for in stance, where they swore that they would no longer support the claims of ponies who no longer (sided. (Hear, hear.) But with regard to that part of the bill which disavowed ad mitted the Jews, and which allowed persons who the Christian faith, to make laws for the Chrietian church, he should certainly opens it, and vote for the 'amendment of the bon. member for Surrey. M r . OOULBURN said that by the bill oiled was taken by the Roman catholic'. The oath taken by the letter con tained a restriction with respect to the disturbance of prc pert!. By the present bill, however, the cue wes altered, fir they did not exact from the Jew the same pledge which they called on the Roman catholic to make. He should like to know from the noble lord what was the cure of lise alteration, as he considered the pledge to he se ',vats in the one case es in the other. Lord J. RUSSELL said he stated the reason of the alter& don when be intreanced the bill. Mr. J. O'CONNELL mast enter his protest that the ROOM catholic nretberewere under any pectdiarreshietions. The house then went into eommittee. Oa clines 1 being proposed. Mr. V. SMITH moved the ended= of the fellowieg wads : e' And SUSI do not believe that t he Pope of Rome, sr any other foreign prints, prelate, person, state, or poten tate, hath, or ought to have, any temporal or eiril jursdie- Soo, authority, or power, within this "alas an d that I will defend, to the utmost of my power, the settlement of property within this rot lot as esta blished by the laws ; and I do make this recognition, declaration, and promise heartily, willingly, and truly, Spot' the true faith of a Christian." He could net understand whythese words should be retained in the protestant oath ; for, with regard to protestant., they appeared to be altogether superfluous. Then, with regard to the b declarationtheey lawe. " that I will defend to the utmost of my power pow the settlement of property within these realms as esta blished something might be said in its defence a respected the Roman catholic, he did not know to what It could refer ea regarded the protestant and the Jew. Then ease the declaration which was to be abolished as far as the Jews wise concerned, but which was retained as re gr.:l4os " fait ' : of oth rebel " lan de . c i l ' are lt " leu d said by so al m l e " bon o . n g th en e . fwiloteucarne.daedretainedt t h a t tissei words order ad s " not o ; n but t he o i Buhr: atch° faith of a feeling. Christian H ' e . should be the last person te wish to shock public feeling when present instance he thought that that house should rather lead than fol. low puhlic feeling. The retention of the words "on the true faith of a Christian," as the law would stand after the passing of this bill; appeared te him to be not only unnecessary but improper, because when there was such a variety of creeds in the house, it ap peared to be a mockery to make • declaration on the faith of a creed. He theught it mach better that one oath and one affirmation should be taken by all who came to be sworn at that table. The motion having been put, Lord J. RUSSELL said, that as the law stood at present, there were three dames of persons who took different oaths, or made affinestiou on anteneg into that honer. The proces ses generally took the oath of fidelity, the oath of supre macy, and the oath of abjuration; there was, however, a slams of protestaats belonging to the Society of Friends, who did not take the peat of the oath of abjuration which ended with the words "on the true faith of • Christian." The declaration which they made in lieu of the declaration " on the true faith of • Christian," was signed by two members of that house ; and it was desirable to remember that, bleats* an bon. gentleman had declared that the tensity of the house would be destroyed if that declaration was not made by all is members. The Roman catholic* took another oath, is which the words " on the true faith of a Christian" were not included, but which words were set tled by the set of 1829, which passed after a contest of ma yoral yeas, and after a dispute as to whether there was any security by which Roman cathelice could be admitted to le gislate for theaafety and welfare of the institutions of this country. Now these three classes baring bets thus ad mitted, and each of them willing to take the several oaths and declarations which he had mentioned, he now proposed with regard to protestant' generally there should be a more simple term of oath, because a great part of the oaths now taken was evidently inapplicable at the present time, and bound the members of that house to declare that a number of ?snot a who had no existence whatever, had no right or title whatsoever to the crown of these realms. (Hear, hear.) It was obvious that these oaths, being of sawed importance, ought net to have • great deal of unnecessary declaration". That being the case, his right hon. friend pops d that they should have some short declaration by which the Roman catholic', as well as others, should be admitted. Now, on this subject he must say that he did not think it would be seise to disturb • settlement which was made after much ete.flict and consideration, and which, as he understood, the Roman catholic* were satisfied with, as being • full and cons .1-ter admission of their claim to sit in parliament. His right hon. friend considered that the declaration he pro posed should not be in the terms which he suggested . Hie suggestion was word for word, in the terms recommended, se those which ought to be studied to all civil officers by the commissioners, Sir B. Ryan, Mr. !Wilkie, Mr. Richards, Mr. Bellenden Ker. and Mr. Amos, in the report Jr Lord Lyndhurst, in May, 1845. They were the words suggested by these gentlemen; men of con siderable authority,of great lemming, who had investigated the whole subjeet of penal disqualifications on account of religion . Mr. GOULBURN did not consider the explanation of the noble lord very satisfactory. (Hear, hear.) The oath pro posed last session contained the material clauses of the Roman catholic oath ; and whea asked why those clauses were nit proposed again, the noble lord replied that he did not consi der them uecessary, because, in 1845, a very learned c im mission recommended the oath contained in the bill. Why was not the oath of 1946 introduced in the bill of last year? (Hear.) The noble lord said the oath now taken was insp. pheable to the times, and objectionable because persons were called upon to smear what wee not absolutely necessary for the object in view. Why, then, was the oath of abjuration retained as a condition of entering upon public offices ? Mr. BOUVERIE wished for informetion with regar 1 to the meaning of the words "the settlement of property within this reshot as established by the laws." What would he, ss en individual, he called upon to swear if this oath were agreed to ? What " settlement" was intended? lie had the misfortune to be • younger son, and he might, 'heroines, be disposed to alter the law of primogeniture. (Laughter.) Lad J. RUSSELL believed that the words were originally introduced with • view of providing security with respect to Roman catholic is Ireland. n d with reference to seats in parliament, bat to certain offices in Ireland which Roman catholic* were slowed to hold; it being • current accusation against Roman catholic* at that time that they wished to disturb the settlement, Lot only of church property but also of lay property, and to restore it to those by whom it was held before OM settlement male by law. When Roman catholic" were admitted into that house it was thought desirable te take these words fr ens a former oath ; but it was not intended that there should be a different oath for Irish members and English members. He thought no person could have any scruple in declaring teat he would maintain the settlement of property as established by law. (Hear.) Mr. J. O'CONNELL said the noble lord's view of the Roman catholic oath exactly accorded with his own. He (Mr. J. O'Connell) had no intention to injure the esrobliehed church, but the object of doing away with all religious esta blishments was • great social one, and what law had established law might dioeetablish. Mr. W. J. FOX said men should do something more than lend a mere Mensal asset to the terms of an oath; every word of an oath should have a re sponse in the heart and sold of him who vowed it, in immediate relation to the great power to whom the appeal was made—a distinct appreciation of the obligation under taken. (Hear, hem.) That the oath was of twenty years' sanding afforded no reason against • change, in other re• spects called for. In the course of those twenty years, how many measures had changed—bow many men! (Hear.) Why, then, was change not to take place here ? The utter diversity of interpretation to which the oath was subjected is that house was in heel( a sufficient reason why a new oath should be substituted, simple and straightforward and clear, about which there could be no two opinions. The maim. tins Jew, admitted to that house, would come there with a faith, true in his conscientious acceptation of the term, and therefore true for al legitimate purposes. It should he the aim of the house to check rather than to encourage that see- 1 tarisn antsgssism which had &beady inflicted such incales tibia eaile upon the countey. (Hear, beer.) He shod give his willing support to the amendment. Mr. BRIGHT desired to explain his position with regard to the measure, because be sat in that house as one of perhaps a small number who believed that the taking oaths at all was not effectual for any good or useful purpose, and was opposed, as he undoubtedly considered it to be, to the progress of that very religion which was brought before the notice of the I gentlemen who tank seats in that home. But he voted for the bill on this simple round. It did not ineresse the number of oaths to be taken ; it did not adopt the principle of oaths ' , there the principle did not previously operate; and it would open the door to a class of our fellow countrymen for whom he felt great sympathy, and whose full liberty he hoped to see established as completely as the liberty of the set to which he himself belonged, and of every other sect established in this country. (Hear, hear.) There had recently been an occasion in the house on which Is thought the state of this question was shown to be absurd and ridiculous. On that occasion, not long ago, three members of the house stood at the table on the same evening and at the rune time to make the declaration or to take the oaths required of them prior to taking their seats. One of these gentlemen was the hon. mem ber for Horsham, a member of the Roman catholic church, the eel, r two being the members for Leicester, one of whom belonged to the sect of which he (Mr. Bright) was a mew bee. The noble lord took the Reiman catholic oath ; the one member for Leicester took what might be specially l i called the proteetaut oath, the other member for Leicester took the declaration. He could not exactly ray, at the risir ment, how mach it differed from the oath, but it was not en oath at all. It appeared to him at the time, that, had a stranger watched the asses taken by those three members on the suasion, he would have oome to • conclusion entirely d &rent from that which the actual state of things in this country justified. He would have suppose! that • great and bitter antagonism prevailed among the various classes of the community, and that three of those clines, represented by the three members, were, by reason of this bitterness and bolting, called upon to take oath., the one as against the other, in order that they might be bound not to destroy certain institutions which the great body of the house, and of the country, thought worth pre serving. (Hear, hear.) He thought the house would do wisely to agree to the proposal of the hon. member for Northampton, on this ground, that it would sleep ify thie question of oaths extremely, and place all the members of the house on the same footers, at least, as to taking any oath at all; and he was prepared to maintainthat every man who, under our constitution, was elected • member of that house, had a lair right, on all the principles of that wasn't'• lion, to enter that house on the same terms and with the was powers es other members, and was to be con sidered fully entitled to exercise his judgment upon, and to vete upon, any and all subject' that came before him. (Hear, hear.) He believed that the public respect for truth would be grisly increased were oaths abolished a ltogether, and men taught that the pledge of their word and their honour laid an obligation epos them the most impressive that could be imposed. (Hear, hear) He should ens for the bill as far as it went, because it admitted the Jews to parliament, and he should vote forth° amendment of the hon. member for Northampton, bemuse it simplified the question, and would relieve the Roman catholic members from the unjust and unpleasant position in which they now stood in relation to oaths. (Hear.) Mr. HENLEY said he did not quite uaderstand the ex planation which the noble lord had gives about the present settlement of property part of the oath. The SOLICITOLORNERAL said the matter was sim ply this. A large proportion of our church property formerly &longed to the Reims catholic church ; and it was a part of the Romeo SAMNA belief that this property was not legally 'Boasted Issea lb* siarch. It had been, therefore, deemed e xpedient Mg MUM. it in the power of any member of par llama% to tike advantage ef his position there to seek an alteration of the present settlement of that property. He believed this to be a very unnecessary restriction to be imposed on Roman catholic menthe's. It appeared to him that these words were introduced origiialiy to guard against particular opinions of Roman cathilics ; they were intro duced afterwards iota the general oath, effecting all persons, although he believed that the words were not considered of great importanor, because he did not believe that any per son would be desirous of altering the settlement o' ; roperty. In all these oaths there was etniderable difficulty in ex plaining the precise ground on which they were introduced. Various denominations of Christians were affected by a par ticular phrase of expression, the full force of which was not felt by other classes of Christians. Mr. DISRAELI did not think that the explanation of the hon. and learned gentleman was quite satisfac•ry. He bad attempted to defend a general expression by a particular application, which, under no circumstances, he thought, mould be satisfactory to the committee. He apprehended (he spike under correction) that the first time this phrase of maintaining the settlement of property in the realm was introduard was in the first declaration of the Prince of Orange. There was no doubt to what settiement of property it referred. It referred, among other settlements of property, to Woburn Abbey ; and he was sure that although the noble lard, like the hon. member for Kilm irnosk, was a younger brother, that was a settlement of properly which the noble lord did not wish to disturb. (Hear.) At the tame time he agreed with the hon. member for the University of Cambridge that nothing was more impolitic than unneces sarily disturbing old forms of oaths. S:iU, when they were called on to pass new forms of oaths, it was their duty strictly to analyte every expression. He had no doubt what was the ongin of this expression about maintaining the settlement of property, and be could easily understand why the expression was subs. quently adopted in reference to Irish members. It was an expression ►nerved merely for Roman catholic., and nothing could be more preposterous than that because gown.- mutt found in existence an oath which was strictly limited to ene clan of religionists, they should construct a new oath and interpose the phrase to which they annexed no definite idea, and which no gentleman could doubt was intendeel for a different purpose and for a t.iffereat class. He trusted that the government would consider this, and abstain from prem , big its adoption on the committee. Mr. WOOD trusted that government would be disposal seriously to take into consideration the amendment proposed by the hoe. member for Northampton, for, if there was an one subject wklekonght to eemMn serene delibtratiots, it was this question of oaths. They ought to remember that s e ew." y as iont. ho l d in gw a: id n t ow thei o j yt e u o b er in j u n c t i on rT i n t hu m who : : :::: e i ess we fa particular c s' tt hohn:frp Christian ra t thw t : o eiwtzf p assed t i w ahedno d at t . b e_ hbv admitting the mei ncrhgprotestantl been tah h sus p ected e eh wsen i ien e . ? w n wa with h e 4 e o p .M u r e o ei o j t f e e 7 d h s e u i w i ln i th r o d:s t imposiag upon him a set of weeds which would have no real meaning that could be definitely attached to them when to was called on to make a solemn affirmation. Lord J. RUSSELL observed that objections bad been made to almost all the parts of this oath, and some boo. gen tlemen who objected to part of this oath might as well have objected to taking any oath of allegiance, because, as th. said, it was not necessary to take an oath as to what parses. generally believe, and there was little doubt that persons had no objection to take the oath of allegiance. With respect to the were& which the right hon gentleman proposed to omit, he must say that be took the whole words of the oa'h from the report of the commissioners, thinking it was better to take the words which had been agreed to by those learned oommiseioners rather than propo.e words of his own. He must admit, alter the objections that had been muse, that he did not think those words with regard to the Pope of Rome, or, with regard to the settlement of pro perty, wets necessary. (Hear, bear.) He we, asked, be side e, vehetle r he would not leave out these weeds, "and I do make this recoenition, declaration, and promise heartily, willingly, and truly, on the true faith of a Chris tian." It did not appear to him that the words ought to be omitted. He knew it was stated by hoe. gentle man that it was almost a mock. ry to use those worth., because the words, " on the true faith of a Christian," were differently interpreted by &alma t sects of Christians, It appeared to him that the ouly value of these words was ihe value which was originally attached to the weeds—vie., that they rave a sanction and certain solemnity to the other word,. H. reckoned that that was the purpose for wh eh they were originally introduced, and he saw no objection to retain them for list pitiless.. In the ease of swearing on the New Testament, it might be said that persona did not agree as to the interpretation of different texts of Scrip ture. and thereine it was not right that persona of different opinions as to different texts should swear as to the same text. As to these words, he saw so reason for emitting them He beli ved that many people thought it would diminish the sanctity of this oath if them words were omitted : he therefore could not consent to the mo: is n. lie should be sati.fied if the committee left out, " I do not believe that the Pope of Rome, or any other foreign prince, person, prelate, state or potentate, bath or ought to have any Juris diction, power, superiority, pre-eminence or authority, tale eiastical or spiritual, with n this realm." Mr. WALPOLE conceived teat the objects of imposing these oaths were three; first of all, to give the religious obi.- acme of an oath to the essential duties which everybody was bound to observe, when he swore allegiance to the Queen. Secandly, to explain and define what was meant be allegiance ; and thirdly, to give some guarantee to the pro testant that the peen 'tent establishment should not be inter fered with. With the exception of three words in the oath now inserted, he should be perfectly willing to assent to the I oath as pr pined by the noble lord. Those three words were 'temporal or civil." lammuch as there was a spiritual influence exercised by the Pope, by putting in the words "temporal or civil" it wierld lead many persons to infer that they were going to sanction, by the lairlication, en ecclesiastical au.hority, or jurisdiction other than could be exercised by the Queen. He therefore thought it unadvisaltle to insert the words " Temporal or civil " Sir R. PEEL was glad that the noble lord had consented to omit the words, " I will defend, to the utmost of my power, the settlement of property within this realm." He was glad that the noble bird meant to relieve proteetents from their operation. He had heard a great many different histories of their intioduc ion, but he believed they had been originally inserted under the impose in that it man earhulies would not *agent to the settlement of property I in Ireland. In Ireland there was a peculiar form, which he apprehended ref. reed to the declaration of Charles 11. in which he gave bt ck to the protestant church possession of all they had been deprived of, and gave to protestant dee senten end others a right to the forfeited estates. In 1662 the pediment of Ireland c'.nfirmed the declaration of 1660, and an act of parliament was pawed confirming the royal declaration. The effect was that the Itemen catholic/ should give en assurance that they would acquiesce in the retch+. meat of property made in 1662. Even in his own time he recollected that one of the objections urged against Roman catholic relief was, that they would not ecquiesce in the set tlement of 1662 Therefore the words were continued in th. acts of '93 and '75, and the Roman catholic, readily gave the assurance. This be believed was the immediate cause of the introduction of the words into the Roman catholic oath. lie thought that the noble lord acted wisely in net altering that oath. They might consider the propriety of abolishing the oaths altogether, but their present chi et wal l to relieve her Majesty's Jewish gut j,c s of certain dimbilities, and he would advise the house not to lose sight of the pie- I deal object in their anxiety about minor matters. It was well to hear in mind that they had attempted lest year and kad failed, and therefors it was well to consider that their main object was the relief of the Jews. He thought that the noble lord had alto acted wisely in omitting the wt ads, " I do not believe that the peps or any other foreign prince or 1 potentate bas or ought to have any civil jurisdiction in th e me realms." It was quite obvious that it would be super ' Inoue to ask the Jew or protestant dissenter to lake such a declaration. (Hear, hear ) The hon e and learned gentleman behind him (Mr. Walpole), who never offered a suggestion, which was not worthy of attentioo, Forged that they should omit the weeds ' Temporal or civil," and leave the words in this form " any juris m Con." He feared that if the words were omitted the conscientiou• temples might be disturbed. (Hear, hear.) It any altera tion was made, he thought it would be better to omit the words 'legalese. leaking at the circumstances of the times, and the utter imeresibility there was of any rival starting up to dispute the title of her Majesty, they wore of ettle or no importance. But the main object of the bill was to capacitate the Jew for every civil privilege, and bin earnest advice to the house was, not to enter into critical disquisitions of the subject of the oath, but to stick to the great question, that of opening the constitution to a large and valuable class of her 31 jetty's subjects. (Cheers ) Mr. J. STUART feared that members did not know the differeneebetween " temporal and civil." and " spiritual and eeclesiasticel." lie peinted out this, because in educational questions they exercised a great influence. A very powerful spiritual influence was at that moment exercised in educa tional metters in the United Kingdom. (Hear.) The ques tion was, *bettor .he propceed alteration would not mesh with the common law, which defied the supremacy of the Pope in all matters spiritual and temporal. Sir R. PEEL said that the hon. and learned member laboured under a mimpprehension. He (Sir R. Peel) bad takzn an oath to the effect that no foreign prince o- potentate had, or ought to have any jurisdiction, temporal or Ciiri , , spiritual or ecclesiastical, within these realms If he omitted the words " ecclesiastical and spiritual," and inserted the words " temporal and civil," he feared that he would .ire rise to the presumpion in the minds of those who might he celled upon to take the oath for the first time, that there did ex'et on the part of the Pope some sort of et c'etiastie 1 or spiritual jurisdiction. (Hear, hear.) There fore he would rather that the words were altogether omitted than that by his silence on the subject he should be supposed to recognise an authority he had hitherto dented. It was on this ground that he preferred that the oath should stand as it was. Far his owe part , h e denied that the Pope had any spiritual or eceleelastical authority, or that he had any de facto or eceective authority or jurisdiction within these reams ; or that there was any court of law which could enforce any such jurisdiction ' • but he did not deny, if there were persons wh at believed that the Pope had such spiritual or ecclesiastical jurisdictiou or authority, that so far as they were conoersed they should recognise it. It was well known that in former times many Roman catholies did take the oath of supremacy. but with the reservation as to the epiritual authority of the Pope. Stith a recognition of the Pope's authority on the part of Roman catholic*, he considered to be much the same as that of a Wesleyan or other dissenting community. In America those who recognised the spiritual authority of such com munity, would be oonseimtiously bound by it; but tho se who did rot would not be bound by it, nor would there be any jurisdiction to enforce it. But for himself, with to this proposition—denying, as he did, the autherityr2tag Pops in all matters within this realm—he would prefer to leave the words as they stood. Lord J. RUSSELL, in reply to the question pot by Mr. J. Stuart, observed that he had always undetstood the oath as declaring that the Pope had no jurisdiction or autho rity which could he enforced by any court in this kingdom, and, (or himself, he was artistiod with that interpretation. But there were persons, as Lord Clammy and whets, who found a d.fliculty In taking this oath; and, though he did not agree wish the interpretation which en,we per sons put upon it, be had thought it right to make some alteration, with the view of removing the scruples they entertained—Lord Clatcarty hay.ng put his opinions in this matter on record, he (Lord J Russell) wrot- oi him t e know whether he had any objection to AS words of the Roman catholic oath, and he r. plied that he had not. The rotors he had thought it better to make the alterations tropmed than to leave words which were misun derstood by persons who were in all other respects entitled to it in purlieu:tent. But the hon. and learned g-ntlemen asked wbeth. r, if the words proposed to be lef out were omitted, and others not inserted in their stead, we should not be in effect acknowledging the supremacy of the Pope, and to that extent altering the common law of the land 1 Now he (Lord J. Ru.s-ll) could not see how the common law could be alterea by their omitting to take an oath—(hear)—and the supremacy of the Pope not beim( mow allowed by our common last, he submitted that it would remain tiresome whether the oath were taken or not. (Rear, bear.) Mr. V. SMITH thought the proper course was to adopt one form uf oath yf.ich all could tsk-. But he would now adopt that part of the amendment to which the neNe lt.rd agr,ed, and tten sutmit the other par: to the committee. (" Divide.") Mr. DISRAELI suggested the expediency of printing the oath as it was now proposed to stand. Lord J. RUSSELL could have no objection to that after the house should have gone through the bill in committee. (Cries of "Divide.") • • • Mr. LAW inquire! what was the question upon which they were about to divide ? The CHAIRMAN (hir. Bernal) replied on the omission of the words aenyi g that the Pose, or any foreign prince, potentate, &e., had, or ought V) have, tentp,ral or civil jurisdiction or authority within these tealcos and undertaking to defend the settlement of property, &c The question he should base to put 1149, that the words " 1 do not believe that the rope, &e." stand part of the bill. Mr. DISRAELI objected that they were no* confound ing two points together which bad uo connez!on—a men might admit the jurisdiction of the Pope and yet not desire to alter the settlement of property. Mr. LAW acknowledged his ignorance of the precise before the house. A specific amendment had been moved of wh.ch notice hod been given, *..d t vorirun of that the u Ale lord et the head of the goverumtut wsented , and another portion of it he repudiated. Mr.STUART roe. mill vehement airs of, " Oh ! oh!" and at ones resumed his seat. Mr. SPOONER, amid :reit uproar, moved that the chairman report progress and ask leave to sit again. Lord J. RUSSELL eu'mitted that it was v. ry unfair to submit etch a motion as that of the h. it. no mbar be War wickshire (Mr. Sp.amer). He had reeve r h. aid awe t etion better echoed than the one of that evening. The whole question had been fully die.umed by several hen. and right hon. members. (Hear.) Mr. SPOONED. conf. serd car. didly that he did n o t ander stand the question be'ore the house. (L cud laughter.) The CHAIRMAN explained the mode in which he should put the question. He should ask whether the house seemed assent to the omission of the words relative to the nun-juris diction of the Pope in this country ? Mr. PLUMPTRE said that the question came upon him and others by surprise, and that they were not prepared for it. ("Oh, oh.") Hu thought the chairman ought to be allowed to report progress. Sir G. GREY could not imsgine how any bon. member could be taken by surprise, seeing that the amendment bad been printed. The question had been fairly submitted to the house, and he had never head arguments ten the one side so well combated by arguments I`ll the othir. If there were any bon. members who thought the oath in di. printed bill ought to be retained, the) would vote against the omission of any words therefrom. Mr. DISRAELI thought that at that hour (12 o'clock) it was not an unreasonable request of the hoe. member tor Warwickshire, that the chairman should report progress, and ask leave to sit spin. He (Mr. Disraeli) was a very warm eupprertcr of the hill. and did not wish to throw any impediment in its way. ("Oh, eh.") Lord J. RUSSELL •edil that he had already elated three times that he was quite ready to omit the words with respect to the Pope and the settlement of property, believing them to be unnecessary. Mr. J. O'CONNELL wished to know what the words about the settlement of property we re ming to be Lett out for? (Loud laughter) These weeds were en the Roman catholic oath. — I6.7ROEBUCK thought the construction of the right hon. gentleman (Sir 0. Grey) would probably mislead some hoc. members. (Laughter.) They should take the oath word by weird. It they objected to a word, cot ceiviiig what it led to, they would vote against it ; if 'stoking at the word, and knowing to what it led, they would vote for it. (Great laughter.) If he said " No," to the word, let them say " Aye." (Rows of laughter.) After a few words from Mr. BILuTHEUTON, Mr. P. MILES 'hid the mode in which the Chairman propeeed tee put the question was perfectly unintelligible ; but he wanted to know whether in the care of a bill of this importance the country should not know the alterations which the gov emetic pro' cued ? They now absolutely pro- posed to omit eight lines out of an . ath originally consisting of twelve, and he really did think that the country deserved to be enlightened upon the subject. (Cheers.) Fur this reivon be nought that his been. friend the member for War wickshire was pi rtectly justified in moniug that the Chair man report preg-eat end obiaia leave to sit agr.in. (Laud protectionist cheers ) Toe committee then divided— Fur reporting progress 122 Against it The committee again divided bet ire we we re re admitted to the gallery, up,a the question that the chairman now leave the the r For the motion Ag it Lord J. RUSSELL then consented that the Chairman should report i rogresa, and ask leave to sit again. INCUMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND). This bill passed through committee pro forma. ESTATES LEASING (IRELAND). This bill passed through committee. ST. JOHN'S, NEWFOUND LAND, REBUILDING BIL. This bill was read a third ume, and passed. MARRIAGES IN CONSULS' HOUSES. Lord PALMERSTON. in snoring for leave to bring in a bill to legalise marriages celebrated abroad in eon suls' houses, stated that, according to the present law, marriages between English subjects. in foreign countries were obliged to be celebrated in the ambassadors' or ministers' houses, and gre,t inconvenience hating tritest from this restriction, it had been thought necessary to bring in a bill rendering marriages in consuls' houses legal. Re begged, therefore, to move for leave to bring in a bill for that wrote. Leave was accordingly granted, and the bill was brought in. The house adjourned at one o'clock. The erprtoo. OUTGOING MAILS. The mails for Vigo, Oporto, ',felon, Madam, Cadiz, and Gibraltar, will be made trt on the mwntng of the 17th of May The Watt Li.dia Man., excluding lawmuds, Huvaram, teams% non:tures, New Orleena, awl Mexico, and intdioling those for Madeira, Rt. Jnan-dc-g 'anima, New Or.inada, Chili, and Fern, will be made up on the morning of the 17th May. Mena for 15nush North America v. the United Eltst* will be made up on the evening of the lbth May. The malls Mt Gibraltar, Mat., Grout*, the kinks Islands. Vgypt, 4deo, Ceylon, India, tinny - Kong , and China, via nouth.anyloa, - Will be made ne on the ermine at the 19th May. The mails, via Marseille., to the Mediterranean, Egypt, Aden, Ceylon, India, Moog-Kong, /ka., will be made up on the eventng of tha 24th of May. The mails for Madeira, the Bruits, and Buenos Ayres, wlll be made upon the evening of the 4th of June. NIGH WATER. AT LONDON SIITDOP. T,u DAT —Vends/. 59 ...IL purl After.... 27 inla pat, 7 Tt.•lWirw—YaNei. 66 Aga pea 7 i Alterasoa. 37 ea's. past LONDON, TUESDAY, MAY 15. A MEASURE has teen introduced by the Earl of CARLISLE the object of which, as it aff,c's portions of the population in many provincial towns, it may be desirable to exp`ain. It is " a bill for the better regulation of freemen's lands," and it rucks to pro vide a general remedy for evils of a very anomalous charm:ter. Adjacent to many English boroughs, and more especially to those in the north of England, there are lands—in some casts of great value, in other instances tf little present use—over which the freemen inhabitants of the towns have a right of pasturage, usually upon payment of some smell annual toll or fee. At Alnwiek, in the county of Northumberland, there we lands of this sort to the extent of 2,600 acres; at Lincoln, the fremsen have the tee of four large pastures; at Nottingham, there are 1,167 acres of fine paaturc land turned to compa ratively very little general account ; at Newcastle upon-Tyne, there is what is called the Town Moor, a large space of 1,100 acres to the north of the town, in which, although the freemen have the plivilege of pasturage, the corporation poetess the ownership of the soil, which gives them the right to the minerals, and is very likely to lead to future diepates ; at Oxford, there is a meadow of 439 scree, which mrg3t be turned to great account. There are similar rights at Bedford, Bridgecorth, Carnarvon, Cambridge, Chippenbam, Colchester, Derby, Eye, Gateshead, Grantham, Hartlepool, Leicester, Marlbo rough, Northampton, Newcastle-under-Lyne, New port, Pembroke, Preston, Stamford, Southwold, Wor cester, Wycombe, and other places, all of which will be affected by the measure, with which it ie, Oere fore, right that they should be fully made acquainted. The asategement of these freemen's lands is, ender Pok pl. of OR n ? 'Mt