The Express. — London, England, 1866-05-04 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EVENING, MAY 4, 1866. usual annual statement—namely, that which has beer , 1 actually these with respect to the national debt within the I yea:. There was an exchange of 1,000,0001. of Exchequer 1 Bonds on which I need not dwell. Of Exchequer Bills we paid off a very considerable sum. We paid 783,0001. from the revenue ; we purchased out of surplus revenue 8;7,0001. ; and we sent to exchange 895,000 f., making total of 2,555,010/. The stock purchssed with the surplus revenue, including • small amount cancelled by land tax, was 1,454,0001. ; and the amount of capita to which I for merly referred, paid by the state towards the redemption of the capital of the debt, but in the form of terminable annuities, during the year, was 1,620,0001. The total of them, three items comes to 5,629,0001. But • sum of money has been raised for fortifica tions of 450,0001., and therefore the actual reduction of the national debt in the year 1865-6 by payments made was 5,179,000/. (Cheers.) The next statement I wish to make is one not of capital importance, but which ought to be brought under notice—it relates to the unfunded debt of the kingdom. A great change has been taking place with regard to the unfunded debt. Part of it is in Exche gzeßonds, and as they are instruments which run for four, or five years at a time, we are not seriously affected by the extraordinary, rapid, and frequent fluctua tions which under the present, I think, wise administra tion of its affairs by the Bank of England, continually at tend the conditionof the money market. But it is quite ob vious that in a country like this, and at a period when the current rate of interest for short terms upon com mercial paper, 90 days or 120 days, or perhaps six months, is running up and down—two, three, four, five, and six times in the course of • year—from 3 per cent. to 8 or 9 per cent, it is almost impossible to make any large por tion of these government securities live in the market in connexion with such competition as that, unless we adopt the course, which I think an unwise one, of giving a high rate of interest upon them. (Hear, bear.) It would have been • very wasteful prooeeding, and the alternative we have adopted is to facilitate the gradual absorption of this debt. (Hear, hear.) It has now reached • point at which no inconvenience can arise out of the unfunded mu m for the abolition of this duty, and that is, that it is abominably adulterated. (Hear, hear.) The adul teration of food la, I am afraid, in a very special manner an d degree. an English vice. I doubt if there be any comitry in the world where the same amount of adultera tion e f articles of food takes place tie in England. (Hear, kenr ) Of course this is violently stimulated wherever the we d duty is high as compared with the price of the smirk .and in this case the rate of duty is about 200 per wi t- the price of pepper being about 3M., 3tel„ or 3d., v car ious times , and the duty being 4d.. per lb. The me ant from this article is for the whole year 124,0001., an d deducting 12.0001. for that portion of the year already passed, the amount of loss for the year will be 112,000/., and that must be added.to the two i te m already mentioned. (Hear, bear.) I now pass to • an nimt which I am unwilling to leave wholly untouched, ne t* to the character which it has assumed, bat with w i t im, at the same time, neither our financial resumes „ r im extent of our information enables us to propose to d a l in that conclusive and effectual manner which I hops wi e &Iv nay be brought within our power—l mean a poi= of the duties on locomotion. Ido not hesitate to se Shit I think great distinction should be drawn practi ,lliand in principle between that locomotion which is foe w a ry and pleasure and that locomotion which is for necessity. I cannot enter into the question b e e far there is • distinction between them, but the (Ppm mime will, I think, see that our actual system of taxation d o e distinguish between them. The committee will be say rived to know that the revenue which we derive when holy estimated from locomotion in all its forms is not less maa 1,600,000/. About one-half of that, or 852,0001., is t h e portion of assessed taxes which I consider to be fairly doe to locomotion—taxes upon horses, taxes on carriages, sad taxes on that portion of men servants who are con nected with them. There is also • revenue of 459,0001. de rivable from railways. With neither of these do I propose in any manner to interfere. (Hear, bear.) The first of them, I think, is • description of charge which may very fairly be retained upon our !tatuttbook--at any -- . rate for the present, end the revenue derived from ways - - ----- is evidently one which, I think, the oommittee wi ll not debt in its present condition. In 1.815 its amount was ; COL s urrender unless it were in connection with some compre- of Prussia are models nearly 45,000,000 e, and just before the Russian war acts prudently, and reduces ber debt, and the it was as high as 16,060,000 f. In 1857 it was raised to finances and expenditure a hensive arrangement for securing benefits to the public, which it is quite plain we are not at present in a oondition nearly 28,000,000/. and in 1859 it had been reduced again of administration. The debt of Prussia now stands to entertain- (Hear, hear.) The committee is aware that to 18,000,0 00 /., but that by funding ; and one of the at 43,000,000 L, and the debt of Holland at 85,000,000 e & royal commission, composed of very able and distinguished objects of this reduction of the debt by a gradual process . The debt of Russia is 279,000,000/., the debt of Austria is ; 316 ,000 , 0001 ., the debt of France, as far as I can estimate mss. was appointed more than twelve months ago to ex- has been to get rid of the necessity of that funding, be amine into the general condition of our railway system, cause the funding of Exchequer Bills is a very expensive , it, is 400,000,000 L, the largest of the debts • but M the and t • report how far it may be possible by such means as operation, inasmuch as it is g enerally , or almost always , I same time itis a country with respect to the future security si ,y be applied to promote the improvement of our railway Perform ed at unfavourable pe ri o d s , hen, in orde r to ' and strength of which perhaps we need feel less anxiety on srtem rela y tivel to the genere l accom modation o f the get rid of 1001. of capital debt, we are . commonly obliged account of the immense resources, energy, and wonderful The ' thriftiness of its people, than for any other country in public traffic. (Hear, hesr.) But it is plain that we must to give 110/. or 115/. of stock, and sometimes more. adjourn the examination of this subject till the commission debt, which was 18,277,000 in 1859 has now been reduced ' Europe. The debt of Italy i5 f 152,000, 1t 000/ 14 . has concluded hits labours. which lam given to understand, to 8,267,000, consisting of about two-thirds in bills and sUln—thear, hear)—the debt o Spain , •, and which I hope will be in the course of the present year. one-third in bonds—the amount of Exchequer _B th ills being ; debt of Portugal is 33,000,0013/., and the debt of Turkey, 5104,70 i CTi nto th u e s which I believe is entirely a modern institution, the bulk (Hear. hear.) There are two other branches of this por- 5,967,000/. and bonds, 2,300 , 000 1 . ' , low , w i th respect tion of the revenue, or similar to it, to which I must call to this, as I think, most grave and serious subject_ of the 'of it having been incurred since the Crimean war, is attention. I mean that portion as regards post horses national debt, I hope the committee will not think that I 5_1,000,000/..These debts . , orthe great bulk of them observe, and not to meet the neces end carriages, which include all hackney _vehicles, tak . ean undue liberty in calling th eir earnest attention to have arisen in a tim e of eel which produce a revenue of 266,000 C And it. It may seem to us that a standing subject of . that ' sities of a struggle for lir. sce i . he gross amount of all these of this there is a large sum derived from that kind is one . with w hich it may be difficult debts reaches 1,500,000,000/. (Hear, hear.) I will not Rio, which ia of the most importance of all in con- to say why it should rtgarti be introd uced t4 to the notice of the b trouble the committee with the details of their increase, se ction with the general public, for it affects the house at one moment rather than another. But undou t- I . bu s t, according to the best computation I can make—and I i n terests, comfort, and necessities of the labouring and edly, lam convinced, after a long experience of the email- , behove it is not far from the truth, taking six of these middle classes. This sum ie 142,0001., derived from riel department, that the time has come when it is fitting . countries—l will not take Holland, because it is reducing thatparliament should bestow agrea ter degree of atten- its debt, nor Prussia. which is not habitually or ordinarily r ehlic conceYunccu of all descriptions , including carriages ' er r increasing its debt ; Spain also, I believe, is in a state of which ply periodically, whether they be stage coaches Mon an we have heretofore bestowed upon the question , ;_._ . _ or whether they be wagons which travel at the rate of of the state and movement of the national debt. (Hear, ! equilibrium (laughter)—taking six of the nine countries four miles an hour in the country, or whether they be hear.) I entirely concur with my bon. friend the member , I have named, the conjoint increase of their debts in what has been at the o mnibuses, which form so conspicuous a feature in the for Westminster—whom I grieve not to see in his ' annual _y call a time of . nual rate of 61 , 000,0001 ., and that is a grow streets of London and other large towns, and which are be- glace , especially as I know that severe indisposition for this lu'abit, like other bad coming from year to year almost indispensably necessary keeps . him away—l entirely acres with him in the I lilt s, wa tt , _ to the comfort of the labouring and middle classes of the doctrine which he laid down in this house, that the .has a tendency . to spread: and if E uropean .. countries people. I make these two proposals, and first, as Metes itemst duty . of parliament twenty-five years ago was to direct sPenil in peace the resources of war, it is actually like to the tax upon omnibuses and all public stage carriages, attention to the thoroughl unsound and rotten state ; having a good harvest, and the country consuming the I may mention that, besides the bearing of this proposal ;of its financial system Its injurious i e ff ects upon the na- ; whole of that harvest and the half of another harvest be in the restrictiou . of induit in the reduct i on or re- 1 upon the comfort and advantages of the lebouring classes tion, . ryait sides. (Hear, hear.) The effect would be that if peace were preserved in Europe to the end of this century the in great towns, it is important in another poi of view, 1 tardation of the growth of wealth, were such that vie, the severity of this duty, and its injunom effect in ; would have been a great mistake if at that period, in • debt of those countries would then be increased to four restricting rural accommodation, and particularly i n c on. ' Mead of entering upon a new course of commercial legible- thousand millions. These are really portentous aim:re fection with railway stations. '(Hear, hear.) But the tion, the spare . resources of the country, such as they were , . I stances. It is not merely the money engagement—that is present tax is estimated to amount to no less had been particularly applied to the reduction of debt. comparatively a small matter, though it ma a great mischief 7 than from 9 to 11 per cent., not upon profits, but But we have now got through most of that work. There are that that moue should be drawn away from the useful and upon the gross receipts of the London . General Om- taxes still remaining that it is desirable to abo li sh or Profitable pursuite of industry and spent upon unproductive mbus Company, and of other companies of a like reduce--(hesx, hear)—of that lam perfectly conscious ; but ; works, and often upon what is much wore—but but it is the description. Now, when one considers the relation which ; at the same time we have advanced so far in the prosecu. enormous political and social difficulties which are gra gross receipts bear to net, and how very large a portion of tion and towartbt the accomplishment of that most benefi. dually stored up by this most improsident course. There is , mal work of reforming our taxation, that I think with my nothing I know of so insidious as the commencement girds receipts is swallowed up in the payment of expenses, it must be admitted, I think, that by taking sash a duty hon. friend the member for Westminster the time has now of a financial di ffi culty. It approaches us , at firee, with arrived when we ought to consider seriously the state and smiles and caresses. It appears to be open to no objection &R this we impose • very heavy burden upon this descrip- ; non of trade. (Hear, hear.) The manner, as the con- • condition of our obligations. (Hear, hear.) And in- whatever. It is like what the poet describes to fame — besides the igieech of my hon. friend there I Parrs mete prima : mox sere attollleln aurae. sinew will perceive, in which the duty affects the labour- deed. Maya been other indications which I have noticed 1 lugrediterque solo et caput inter imams coedit. ing classes is very much as follows. In all great centres of population—l will not at present refer to railway sta. . with satisfaction, and which show that I am not (Cheers.) It is, again, like what the great Greek tre at any rate speaking lightly or gratuitously . when I gedian relates of the cub of the lioness. The cub is in thetions, because every gentleman who reside In submit to thecommittee that that time has arrived. The cautiously taken home by the hunter, and reared with his country will be familiar with them from his own experience—but the manner in w h ich it acts in condition of the public credit as measured by the price of dogs. It plays among his children , and while a cub it great towns is this : there is continually going on a daily the funds is a matter which I think might well attract the is mild and fawns upon everybody, but when it grows in process unobserved, by which the value of land is rising in attention of the house. It is not that the public credit is strength it suddenly shows itself in terror, and deluges limited areas about the centres of great towns in a proper • weaker than it was before—on the contrary, I think it the house with gore. (Cheers.) That is the way a finest- Lion hardly credible, and which experience and statistics never was stronger ; but the rising rate of profit on cial difficulty begins. It begins with a most insinuating would astonish anybody who never atten ds to the subject. money must necessarily raise the rate of interest as re- address, it grows little by little, and we put off the day (Hear, hear.) But the effect is $ continual transfer o t h e Presented by the price of the funds. At the same time I of reckoning, which must come at last. (Hear, f think oul be wise and politic on the part of hear.) Well, sir, so much for other countries. Now, let use of premises from residence to purposes of business, and di sappear are l entparliam with a view to poesible er.•gen- us look at our own. lam sorry I have detained the corn s great number of the different classes who cies, to consider the present state of the pub- mittee for nearly two hours, but I will still ask them to those who are wealthy, and disappear for their pleasure, but there is a considerable proport ion of the lie credit as indicated by the mate of the funds, bear with me while I state what I take to be the real truth labouring classes who cannot aff ord to p a y the and to consider the state in which we should stand if we of the case with regard to our own position. I address increased rents, and who go into the neighbourhood were obliged to go into the market to borrow. There are my request to the whole house, and particularly to or to a greater distance from its centre , where their labour other reasons, I think, for saying this is the proper time gentleman opposite, and those who say , and say truly, be performed, and to whom it is of the t ea t im. for entertaining the question. Next year-1867—ne are . that they are deeply interested in the land and fixed pro mustce that they should have cheap • maces ; a nd to receive a considerable relief by the cessation of ; perty of tie country, because I apprehend if there is any therefore locomotion, considered as a tax upon the labour- terminable annuities to the extent of nearly 600,0001. . special interest involved in the subject lam about to open ing portion of the community, is, in the ' , ere' strictest (hear, hear)—nor can I fail to mention that the most ,it is the interest of land and fixed property. I will en and widest sense, a tax upon the raw material of in- powerful organs of public opinion in the kingdom, with ; deavour to set forth clearly exactly what I mean. In the dastry. Nothing more corresponds with the ra w material the best intentions and with an enlightened zeal for the first edace let it be recollected that we are living in a corn of industry than the sinews and muscles of labour- public good, have been favourably drawing the attention inertial era. I am not now speaking of it. men, and if he has to expend them in t i-a- . in; of the public to the subject, in the hope thatthe govern- , social aspect, but am confining myself to its material as veling to and from his work he deducts what went would submit to parliament any proposal pect, of which it is almost impossible adequately to ap ought to be used in his avocation. (Hear, hear.) which it is in their power to make. The predate the magnitude and prospects. Wby, from five We propose to leave the license duties upon stage carriages course and movement of our national debt can years to five years the rate of increase is continually slat es they are at present. We are not going to offer a thorough, easily be set forth in a most intelligible form mg, and always shifting upwards. The liberation of in searching, and effectual solution of the whole of this yore to to the community. I may observe, the national debt ; dustry, the progress of invention, the steady investigation tion,but we propose to offer what I think will be a very great consists of three heads, which for the present purpose It is ;of science, the improvement of' social habits—all these relief. The bunlensome part of the duty is at present a not necessary to distinguish from one another. These three ; things are combining together, and the joint result is, 1 tax of a penny per mile for every mile traversed. We pro - heads are—first, the funded or permanent debt, including ; think, bringing us to this conclusion—that in the days of pose to reduce that from a penny to one farthing per mile. the Bank of England debt, represented by a capital sum ; I our ellillhood, when we thought the commerce of England (Several members : " All, &1V) There are some difficul- secondly, the unfunded debt, of which I have already j was a wonderful thing, and the commerceof the worldwon ties about that—there are considerable di f f i culties about it. spoken ; thirdly, the outstanding capital value involved , derful, and when we had an idea that it was at about its Ido not woneer at all at the suggestion which has been in any of the terminable annuities which may still exist. ; largest development, amounting almost to a transformation, made, but the house will be pleased to recollect that Placing these three items of debt together, it will give the • it ware in point of fact, nothing but an infant in the cradle. though I have described the strongest reasons for totals of the national debt as they have tood at periods ;It was an infant Hercules. Ever since it has been bursting modifying this duty, yet it cannot be separated which I have selected. The total of the national debt, ; its bonds, but great as is the extension it has now reached, altogether from the other portion of the duty we which some people supposed to be 800.000,000/., I though we are not prophets here and must refrain from hare on locomotion. It cannot be separated alto- ;at the close of the great war turned 900,000,0001. Of ; dogmas, it is our duty to estimate the probabilities, as well gether from the duty upon hackney conveyances, course Ido not include in that total any allowance for the ,as we can, and guided by the balance of probabilities, we which we are not able coneistently with the convenience of sinking fund. I speak of the real obligations of the coun- , must look, during the next 2 0 , 30, or 40 years — l will not the government to relieve, and It cannot be separated al- try. In 1830 the amount had been brought down to . put any limit to the time—for s further development and together from this consideration—that in a very great 842.000,0001. A good deal had been done in that interval : extension of the commerce of this country. The commerce camber of cases these (minibuses are in direct compe. for the reduction of the debt, but little had been done for of this country is now, I apprehend. in the aggregate, at t:tion with the short local traffic of railways in the neigh. the liberation of the industry of the country. A beginning least threefold in every branch what it was 25 years hourhood of great towns, on which railways we levy with- ; was made, but it was only a beginning. In 1840 the debt , ago, while the population has only been increasing out any sort of compensation, I believe, a tax of 5 per had fallen to 837 ,000,0001. being only 4,500,0001. less than 20 per cent. While the population has increased one cent upon the gross receipts. (Hear, hear.) Undoubtedly it was in 1630. But it must be recollected that during that , fourth, our commerce has multiplied three times, and this this tax will be much lighter upon these carriages than it inteival a loan of 20,000,0001. was contracted for the enum- is still going on. Now our great agents of production are will he upon the railways with which they compete. Ac- cipation of the negroes in the West Indies. The lowest three in number. First of all there is landand fixed capital ; cording to the figures I have stated, the total receip t Feint which the debt attained was on the sth January, ; secondly, there is moveable and transferrable property ; and with the full duty would be 130,0001. for the year. T he 1854, when it was 800,515,000/. Then came the Crimean thirdly , there is labour. Let us consider these three be duty can only reduced from the 2nd July, for that is the war , when parliament resolved to meet the expenses agents of production. There is a race b e tween nations in time the arrangements are made for the quarter, and that of that war in a great degree by taxes immediately int- industry and enterprise. There can he no doubt at this the licenses are issued, and the act of parliament necessary posed on the people. Consequently, the increase of the moment what nation is foremost in the race. It is the to effect that reduction—for this is not a reduction made debt was much less rapid than it otherwise would have . United Kingdom. The people of the United Kingdom are by a resolution of the house—probably would not pass until been, and much less rapid than it would undoubtedly be if ;by far the foremost in the nice. Now, our external corn late in the present month or the beginning of June, and, unhappilythe country should everbeinvolvedin a long war. ' merce is, I apprehend, as great as that of the consequently, though the total loss by this reduction would (Hear, hear.) On th e 31st March, 1857, the debt was two greatest countries that come next to England, be 90,0001., the loss for the year 1866-67, after allowing 871,722.0001 e on the Met March, 1859, it was 823,934,000/.; . that is to say, the commerce of the United Kingdom, with for sonic recovery in the amount of traffic, would be 61,00 U/. and on the 31st March, 1866, it was 798,909,000. (Hear, • thirty millions of people, is as great as the commerce of In connexion with the post-horse duties, l am hear.) That is, nominally, a point lower than it ever • France and America, with their seventy millions of people. proceeding upon the principle that the post-horse before stood at ; but we have cancelled certain stocks, ' (Hear, hear.) That is an extraordinary fact. We have duties include hackney carriage duties. The hackney car- which, though not apparently, really belonged to the pub- got the start in the race. What has given it to us! It nage duties in London are of a peculiar description, and lie. In fact, we may say with substantial accuracy we have may be said we have got the advantage of our insular with these Ido not propose to interfere. They involve now just reached the point in which we have effaced position—that, no doubt, is a great advantage. The cha questions of importance as between the metropolis and the results of the Crimean war, and that we are ROW meter of our people is also a great advantage ; but our the count because the receipt from that tax which is of a in the same position we stood in at the commencement of insular position and the character of our people were ad peculiar character is a receipt which is considered as some 1854. There are several sums not very material in them- • vantages we possessed centuries ago, and yet England, compensation made by the metropolis for part of the great selves in which we are indebted—namely, to savings banks centuries ago, did not lead the trade and industry of the rovernment outlay in matters connected with its comfort a sum of about 3,000,0001.; but, on the other hand,there are I world. What is the cause of our pre-erninence! It and advantage. But the post-horse duties are duties on loans by the government for improvement of land, drain- ,Is not our accumulated capital, for that forms part post horses all over the country, and upon hackney car- age, and other purposes, amounting to about 10,000,000/. ;of that pre-eminence. There can be no doubt at all rimes elsewhere than in London, and are regulated upon a 799,000,000/. is, therefore, the preseat amount of the ' that the cause is to be found in our possession of internal Beale varying according to the number of horses and car- debt. Observe the rate at which these operations have treasures, especially coal—(hear, hean—and not merely sieges. and that scale is so framed as to bear hardly upon Pe:weeded- UP to 18.54 there were nearly final , years of in the possession of coal, but in the possession of vast the small owner as compared with the larger owner. the most profound peace ever known. Therefore, it was • centres of coal under such circumstances that we can (Hear, hear.) A man having one horse or one carriage the very period in which it was most desirable to deal ; raise it to the ground at a lower price than any other pays a license duty of 71. 10s. ; a man with two horses or efficiently with this debt, if we wished to place ourselves country in the world. (Hear, hear.) It is not the quan two carriages pays not quite double that ; and the other in a position to lam T ha t The rate of de- • tity of coal, but the price of it, that is the essential point. steps in the scale go in the same way. A man with crease per annum during period was 2,609,000/e i The possession of coal under these circumstances has four horses or three carriages pays 20/ and a man ~ undoubtedly a feeble sum considering the enormous ' given us our start, and also caused that enormously rapid with eight horses or six carriages - progress of the country in many other respects, in which the 30/. with the 71. 10s. the house will see the great crease was nearly 10,000,000/. a year. From 1857 to 1866 we might have expected it to make less rapid program than inequality of the tax. The change I propose to make is the rate of decrease has been somewhat better than it was most other countries ; for, after all, the other great to reduce the duty for one horse or carriage to 51., with in previous periods, namely, 3,646,0001. But I wish to treasure of nations, viz., unoccupied and undeveloped land, some intermediate steps, up to a 30!. charge. The effect eau the attention of the committee to what we must ex- is a treasure we possess in a much smaller degree—l speak : of that will be, without troubling the committee with Peet —that whereas two or three millions a year Tepee- lof course of the three leingdoins—than almost any other rented , our operations in times of peace since 1815, if you I tumecessary details, to place the small man who drives his European country. It is then coal and what depends on own cab or fly upon a fair footing, as far as the nature of become involved in a great and prolonged war you must , coal that has given us this pre-eminence in the commerce a the duty will admit, with the larger capitalist with whom eeyeet to see thedebt grow at about ten times twat rate. ; and industry of the world. Well, sir, it has often been a h e competes. (Hear, hear.) The loss from that source, (Hear, hear.) The next question is whether that is a ! the subject of very interesting discussions whether we may . after making a small allowance for increase, will be in satisfactory state of things. But I cannot proceed further ; look on our stores of coal asbeing practically inexhaustible, s all 20,000/.. but in the present it will be on the subject at present without asking the committee to . and in the condition in which our commerce was 20 or 30 s only 16,000/. Gentlemen will see that we have observe what is taking place in o th er c ountries. The ; years ago, it would have been perfectly reasonable to have co Dow deposed o f an amount of 562,000/- out of c ha p ter of national debt is assuming a painful and, I think, ; answered that question in the affirmative, and held that t I AO,OOM. The subject to which I shall now pass is a baneful prominence as a social and political fact of , they were inexhaustible. But circumstances have greatly r of an entirely di ff erent description from those on which I modern experience. (Hear, hear.) Ido not know whether ; changed. The rate of increase in our consumption and the horse is aware to what an extent this mischievous and n hare thus far treated, having this only in common with production of coal liaa become such that minds, the greatest 11 them that it would dispose of a large portion of the re- injurious process is going on. I shall refer to one instance ; amongst our scientific authorities, have turned their atten d !minder of the surplus, and that it is undoubtedly a very which I can contemplate without the least anxiety—the . tion to the question. Now, suppoeing this increase to con- debt of the United States. That debt is in itself some- ' s sport rat financial arrangement. Before, however, I quit ; tinue and I venture to give an opinion that it is robable it it the subject of taxes I had, perhaps, better state that I shall thing wonderful as the creation of three or four years. I will continue, what will be the influence ou ourselves? gyring (Hear, hear.) It amounts to G 00,000.01301., and the rate ; But for the present let me ask you to consider this. An r- el submit resolutions for the purpose of • of its growth last year exceeded 200,000,000/. That is a I miming that we cannot for many generations continue to 1 elect to all changes I have thus far m e giving and al wonderful debt, and its charge is enormous'. It is not le me with them resolutions renewing the income , produce coal at a price cheaper than other countries, what as tai at 4(1. for the year, and likewise for the con- possible in the present state of financial arrangements I will happen ?It is not enough to eay that the expense of ir tin aince of the tea duties. Those resolutions in that country to ascertain the charge with precision, ; deep ruining and ventilation and keeping down the Min ter will be, as usual, comprehended together in one but I believe lam not far wrong in saying that it us con - ; peruture will be econoneeed by new inventions and con t. 'areeire. But the proposal which I have now to siderable heavier than our own, although the capital is 1 tnvances. These new inventions and contrivances there (Hear' hear.) I estimate it at about 32,000 nom • Make, if it should receive the sanction of the house, le".?•• may be, but they will not give us pre-eminence. Every but as the cost of r ui ng the revenue in America is b o d y else who has coal will be just as well is le to make id will, I think, more conveniently and naturally form the than here, I do not think the amount of the id "abject of a separate measure which I pro to submit as greater use of them an we are. In the same way it fno use to cherge will be less--not including the Southern debt — be eoiss as possible. The question to which lam about tosay a substitute will be found for coal. No doubt there than 35,000,000/. per annum. Looking at these fieures fiS 011 the attention of the committee is connected with an are scientific men' of high authority some of whom a man would apt to be struck with something like de b- item which which I omitted, contrary to my wont, from the re- think, although there is a di ff erence of opinion, it may ss ..r.'ve portion of my statement. It relates to the spair. But loolang st the vigour and energy of the be possible to discover a substitute of that nature ; which has to bear the burden, I must coulees but if that substitute is found it will not be con iion. the prospects, and the movement of our national country I IP debt (Hear , hear. ) I think the future, as far as finance i s conc erned, will not peculiar to England. And, therefore, in 1001 e event I K' • I will first give to the committee that whi c h wou ld h ave appertained in any ease to the constitute any di ffi cult) to the American people. (Hear, have supposed of our being unable 50 or years hence, hear.) lam confident that if they show with respect to or whatever the time may be, to continue to raise un- , now to be created, so much of those dividends as are not finance any portion of that extraordinary resolution which bounded quantities of coal at the price at which we now required in order to meet the demands of the casings both sides manifested during the war, and if they show raise it, this appears to me demonstratively clear—our banks will be reinvested from year to year. Of course the that equally remarkable resolution on the return o peace relative position to other nations must be lost, because if extent of that operation, and the amount of burden to be which they did during their monstrous and gigantic war, it he a question of coal against coal there is no doubt at all created by it, will differ very much accosting to the in cutting down their establishments to within moderate how the matter stands. There is another country not assumption which we make as to the demands bounds, I will not say, to use a modern phrase, that the only as rich as ourselves in coal, and in every other of the savings banks ; but, for argument sake, debt will be a fleabite, but that in a moderate time element of material prosperity, but which is enormously I assume that the demand from savings banks will be one it will be brought within very small limit*, and that even richer in coal. The coal surface of the United half, and that consequently there will be 500,000!. to be those now living may see it effaced. (Hear, hear.) I States of America is I believe 37 times treater invested. On the supposition that you adopt the two believe that America is at this moment paying every one than our own. (Hear, hear.) It is true that of operations—first, the conversion of the 24,000,0001„. and, of her war taxes, and the amount of revenue of the 1 nited , that coal surface a considerable proportion is secondly, the reinvestment of thespare dividends.and on the States is, I apprehend, not less than 90,000,000/. ; the anthracite—nobody knows bow much is anthracite— assumption that there will be one half of the extra divi largest sum ever raised in any country for the purposes of ' and anthracite coal has not yet been found well adapted dends tospare,tleresult will bethia that the annual charge a central government. (Hear, hear.) Of this sum only for steam or for smelting purposes, although for domestic beginning at 419.000!. will gradually increase until it about 10,000,0007. is borne impatiently by the people. The purposes it is capable of adaptation. Supposing this to be reaches in the year 1685 1,444 , 000! ., and the amount of finance minister, Mr. M'Culloch, strongly urges the policy so, supposing that the c ons t a ntly accruing demand on our public debt cancelled by that time will be 49,500,000 i., of reducing the debt, and I think we ought, from this coal fields has the effect of carrying away this re-eminence or in round numbers 50,000,000/. (Cheers.) That will be side of the water, to send him our hearty good wishes 'in cheap production from ourselvesto across the Atlantic, I the general result. That is there will be a fresh annual for his success, both on account of friendly feeling and ! ask you, and especially hon. gentlemen opposite, what will burden rising from 419,000/. to 1,444,000/., which will in because it is to be hoped that the example of America I happen ? There will be a decline—a decline of rents, a the course of about eighteen years and a half cancel forty will re-act beneficially here. (Hear, hear.) But have ' decline of probts, and a decline of wages. There will be nine millions and a half of stock. I think that, by taking hon. gentlemen paid attention to the stealthy manner in precisely the reverse of that process which we have all been this course, we shall be acting wisely and prudently which borrowing is becoming the standing vice of almost , seeing, and many of us have felt, for the last twenty years in regard to the national debt. I am Jaw from every government in Europe? (Hear , hear.) I do not !re —the increase o f rents, the increase of profits , and the saying that this is the only measure that ought speak with reference to the state in which the incase of wages. When rents, profits,and wages decline to be adopted, but I think it is quite as large continent is at this moment, because we yet hope : what will the owners of them—what will those who re- as we should be justified in adopting in the that, in spite of what has occurred, Europe may ceive the wages do? Those who receive the wages finding actual state of circumstances. We shall be acting not be deprived of the inestimable blessings of peace. wages lower here and higher across the Atlantic will wisely and prudently in regard to the national debt, we I speak strictly with reference to a state of peace, and I migrate. (Hear, hear.) The owners of moveable pro- shall completely acquit ourselves of our obligations to the ask the house and the committee to consider how enor- perty. finding a wider and more profitable field for its ap- , trustees of savings banks, we shall make a provision for mously important is becoming, fromyesr to year, the habit plication than they will have here, will send their capital their demands, which will prevent any risk of our having and practice of the governments of Europe with regard to abroad. What will the owners of rentsdo! It appears to !to go into the market as sellers of the funds, which would the contraction of debt. Now, here are the national debts me that they cannot migrate—they may migrate per- be most undesirable • and we shall be certain from year to of nine countries of Europe. With the exception of Hol- . sonally, but that upon which they depend cannot migrate, year to cancel a cer ta in amount of stock independent of land, there is not one of those debts which has not been ! and the upshot will be this—that in a period of declining that which we cancel from the surplus of the revenue. virtually contracted within the last half century, and by; wealth, rents, and profits, the charge of the national debt, (" Hear," and cheers.) Now I have only to put together far the greater part of them has been contracted within which is now borne in very large and full proportion', in a few words the sum of all the operations which I have the last twenty years, and in a time of peace. If any pot , by profits and by wages along with rents, .so wearisomely detailed. (Cheers.) The amount of the Lion arises from a war expenditure, it is merely incidental. will remain a permanent mortgage upon the I surplus is 1,350,0001. The retniasions as they stand are. On And with regard to Holland and Prussia—and Prussia in land, houses , and works of the coun t ry . (Hear, wood, 307,0001. ; wine, 58,000/. ; pepper, 11 9 ,000/. ; stage this respect is free from all suspicion—the debts of those hear.) Sir, I wish I could convey to the committee my own carriages, 85,000/. ; making a total of remissions of - ountries are in by far the best position. Holland , sense of the importance of these considerations. There is 562,000/. Then for the conversion of the debt a futile'. - - • ' . that - ild -to make charge of 502,000/. in the - - the two sums _ _ resent year laa , nag. ..__ a certainly nothiiig in the figures tit, would appear a them at any . rate unworthy of being taken into eonsiden- together making n" 170647000 f surplus tion. This is a matter which engages habitually the atten- for the present year of 2:96,00W. In the followi ng tion of skilful and scientific men, under the direct authority year there will be a further charge, the result of the government. Mr. Hulme, whose estimate I believe of the conversion of 144,000/., and in the next year that is the best that has yet been made, has estimated the avail- will be extended to nearly a quarter of a million. That is able coal in the United Kingdom, within 4,000 feet of the an amount of burden about which I feel no scruple of con surface—and even at 4,000 feet it could not be raised at the science, because there has been noyesr in which the natural price at which it is now raised—at te3,000,000,000 , growth of the revenue has not amounted to a very much of tons. Now the consumption of coal in I larger sum. I propose to take the resolutione relating to change 1854 was 64,000,000 of tons, and the present con- of duties if, as I rather sanguinely anticipate, there should sumptiou is taken at 86,000,000 tons. But the not be any serious objection to them, on Monday. I important point is this every year, on an average, the I would propose also, on the assumption that they will not consumption of coal is 3.7 greater per cent. than it was lead to much discussion, to tskethe preliminary resolution the year before ; but the process is this: not taking it at 1 with regard to debt conversion on Monday. That resolu -3.7, but taking it at 3},—that is, abating something of its tion sin general terms, and I think gentlemen can conduct annual rate of increase, although I think we have greater ' the discussion best when the bill is in their hands. At the reason to expect the increase of the increment than the same time if it is desired to have a discussion I would, of decrease of it,—yet taking this annual increment at 3e, course, not propose togo on with it then. And now, air, this would give in 100 years an annual consumption of I must apologise to the house for the length of this state -2,600,000,000 tons ; but the consumption in the next ment. (Cheers.) I hope I have not been understood to 104 years that is by the year 1970 would reach prophecy, or to do anything more than to make such a 103,000,000,000 of tons ; that is to say, a greater amount sketch of the future, and point out those things which than all the coal now known to be available in appear to demand the attention of reasonable and prudent Great Britain within 4,000 feet of the surface. That may men. As regards them I would say no more than this, or may not be. I believe that long before you that the difficulties I have named may produce grievous would have consumed that quantity of coal, effects, but by dealing with them at once we may restrain you would have begun to find in operation them within certain limits. Undoubtedly it did seem well the causes to which I have referred, which would to the government, although the proper finance business of follow with infallible certainty upon an increased price. the year is to make the arrangements for the gear, yet we These particulars are drawn from a very useful and acces- thought we should cast one glance forward into the future, sible work which has lately been published by a careful and endeavour in some degree to meet those demands row, statistician, Mr. Jevons, which was quoted the other so that when we cease to ply our arduous task of conduct night by the hon. member for Westminster. But Mr. ing public affairs—l do not mean the government specially, Jevons, who, I know, has been very careful in his facts and but the body of the house generally—when most estimates, does not stand alone in his opinion. Many of us have passed away from active life, those who' gentlemen will recollect the opinions given in come after us may have reason to say that while making I this house two years ago. Sir John Herschel I know provision for our own wants we have also taken some con- I agrees in the main with Mr. Jevons. Dr. Percy, cern for them, so that they will have no reason to condemn I understand, leans in the same direction, and our conduct. The right hon. gentleman resumed his I have myself had the opportunity of commu- seat amid loud cheers. nicating with my distinguished friend. Sir Roder;ck In reply to Sir J. PAKINGToN. Murchison, and lam able to say that he for many years The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said on I has believed this to be a matter of the gravest nature, well Monday he proposed to go forward with these resolutions deserving our attention. Now, sir, it is vain to think of unless there was a desire for an extended discussion, in restricting the consumption of coal—it is worse than vain which case he would postpone them. Of course it was un- I to think of taxing coal—and it is also worse than vain to derstood that the first business on that day is the Bettie- I think of stopping the export of coal. (An expression of tribution of Seats Bill and the other bills with regard dissent.) I only give my own opinion ;if you do not think so to Scotland mid Ireland. He moved that the chairman re . I let it be reserved for separate discussion. Ido not think port progress. the proof would be difficult ; but it would only cause me Mr. IS . LESLIE asked the right hon. gentleman what I to trespass more upon your time, which I have already hee l roposed to do o n the subject of dog tax. done at an unreasonable length. There is one conclusion e CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I do not which seems to me pretty obvions. If it be true that we propose to apply to thatpurpose any appreciable portion of cannot probably continue to supply coal at the present low the surplus. I say appreciable because I think the reform I I prices in an unlimited quantity for an unlimited time, of the dog tax which is proposed need not involve any I mean for even as much, perhaps, as two or three gene- material lose to the revenue. My hon. friend the &sere ' rations—if it be true that it is our duty to make preps- tary to the Treasury has kindly taken the matter in hand. 1 ration for the time that is coming, the way to make pre- and he will probably be able before long to lay before the paration for it is to use, not excessively extravagant, u; house a measure calculated to meet the very reasonable , moderate and reasonable efforts to rid ourselves of our wishes that are entertained on the subject. (Cheers.) incumbrances, and let those who come after us, if they are Mr. WARNER was surprised that the right lion. gentle ' to encounter difficulties of which we have no practical man, with a surplus of 200,0001., should not have taken off ! knowledge, not receive from us a legacy of difficulties the farthing mileage duty, which he could only regard as a 'which it is in our power to alleviate. We have not done protective duty in favour of the railways. enough—we ought to do something more; and as, in former Mr. WATKIN felt sure the railway companies would not times, the practice was to buy in seasons of abundance for regard the abolition of that mileage as any great grievance. seasons of dittress, so now, while we are working this He was disappointed that the right hon. gentleman in die enormously profitable mine of national wealth, we ought course of hie admirable budget should not have announced to use some portion of the proceeds for the purpose of that after careful consideration of the matter, the govern diminishing the burden of our great mortgage. (Cheers.) went bad seen their way to reduce by half a million or a I will now tell the house how we propose to set about this. million the cost of collecting the revenue, which at There are two modes, and so far as I know there are prat- present amounted to no leas than 74 per cent. tically almostonlytwo,by whichit is in our powertooperate It seemed to him that the reduction of the customs permanently on the great mass of our debt. The one is the duties ought to have been followed by is corresponding application of surpluses from year to year. Those sur- reduction in the Custom-house establishment. He hoped pluses, through the favour of Providence, have of late been that something would be done to diminish the present' more liberal than perhaps was usual, but they cannot be vexatious delays occasioned by examining the baggage of depended upon in times of difficuly, and we must not look travellers between this country and the continent. It to them alone. The other mode of operating upon the seemed to him that what was saved by preventing ladies debt—one which is constantly recommended by those who from smuggling tea, tobacco, or spirits, could not possibly desire to see it reduced—is the conversion of perpetual be anything like the cost of maintaining the present into terminable annuities. (Hear, hear.) I have fre- barbarous system. quently received, sometimes from competent and skilled Mr. N. GRENVILLE observed that the Chancellor of j p ers ons, recommendations to introduce large schemes of the Exchequer had some time ago reduced the cost of this kind. But the difficulty is this—there are shooting licenses, under the impression that the increase no purchasers of terminable annuities in the open market , he s h ould thereby name in their number would prevent and if you go into the City to sell them you must be pre- any loss to the public. He should be glad to know if the pared to accept very low prices—that is to say, to borrow right hon. gentleman was satisfied with the result of the money at greatly increased rates of interest. Consequently, operation. j from the large waste involved in such an operation no Mr. WILD complained of the mileage duty on vehicles minister or government has ever recommended it. But which, in districts where there were few railways, was we have a resource, which we findweposseas in the medium found by the working classes to be a great grievance. of the funds which we hold on deposit. Those funds it is Mr. HUBBARD wished to ask the Chancellor of the I in our _power to manipulate precisely as we please. We Exchequer whether, looking forward to the great financial I hold 20,000,000/. from different bodies, and it is possible operations he had explained, he had any idea that the these delioalts will be increased in future years. Of those amount of the averaged bankdeposits might be diminished. 145,000,000!., 10,000,0001. have already been converted in Such, however, might be the fact if it was true this manner. But there is 24,000,000/. which stands in what that trustees were withdrawing their deposits, as 'is called the state deposit account due to the trustees of he had understood the right hon. gentleman to say. savings banks. What the trustees of savings banks have Again, the right hon. gentleman had stated that terminable to expect is the payment of every farthing of what we annuities were unsaleable ; but the right hon. gentleman have received front them, with the interest upon it. They did not state what was the reason, and the only reason, have nothing whatever to do with the 24,000,0007. ; that why that was the came ; namely, that the whole of the is a mere question of the method of investing it with capital expended on a terminable annuity was liable to which we are alone concerned. If we lost every farthing of income-tax—was liable, in fact, to confiscation. As the I it, we should still be bound to pay it to them, and if ne right bon. gentleman was virtually proposing that the made a profitable investment of it, it would be entirely our income-tax should be made a permanent one, at least for a I affair. just as much as if we were bankers. In point of fact considerable number of years, he hoped that the right bon. the state of things is thin, that the assets of the national gentleman would be disposed to consider the question of debt commissioners,who hold those millions for the public, its incidence and collection. The present system imposed are not equal in value to their obligations to the savings a great deal of unnecessary inconvenlenc , e upon the public, banks trustees, falling short by about 3,000,0007. One of and it was altogether of a most rough, clumsy, and inartin the recommendations I have to make is, that by convert- cial character. (Hear, hear.) ing these 24,000,0007. as cash, we shall repay that Mr. SAMUDA approved of the plans of the right hon. 3,000.0e10/. which is wanting, and we shall square gentleman for paying off a portion of the national oblige- completely our account with the savings banks trustees, tionu. but suggested that, by extending the lengt h of the so that an unknown liability to come would no annuities to a hundred y ears, a sum of B or millions longer form part of our national expenditure. might be made to wipe out no less than a hundred millions, And, therefore, we propose this double operation. I call of the debt. If such a course were pursued, the effectl it operation A and operation B. Operation Ais this. upon the reduction of the national debt would in the . We take the 24,000,000 f. to stand as the State deposit ac- course of years be very perceptible, and would operate most count, and which now costs us 720,000 e a year. That beneficially in times when danger was to be apprehended 720,000,0001. a year is already provided for in the estimates to our commercial prosperity. on the table. N're propose to convert that into annuities Lord STANLEY said that he did not quite understand ' for Deers the same that was begun by Sir George Lewis, the manner in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had and carried on as occasion offered by others. The effect calculated the capitalised value of the national debt, which of that conversion will be to raise the charge from he had estimated at 799,000.000 e some odd thousands. It 720,0001. to 1,725,000 r., in round numbers ; or, in round wag made up, as he (Lord Stanley) understood, of three ' numbers, to increase the annual charge by 1,000,000 e That separate items—terminable annuities, the unfunded debt, is the first operation, and the financial effect will be that and the funded debt. He quite understood the principle lin le6o-7, if that plan be adopted, we shall pay one-half upon which the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to year's dividend on stock, that is 360,000 f., or one-half of deal with the annuities, and he thought it a very valuable I 71.0001. ; we shall pay two quarterly dividends on an- one. The difference between the real and nominal value nuities amounting to 862,0001. That will make a total of the unfunded debt was almost an inappreciable one, but charge for 1866-7 of 1,2 22,0 0 0/.. instead of 720,0007. ; or, that was not the case with the public or funded debt. in otherwords, for the y ear 1866-7 it will impose an addi- If the Chancellor of the Exchequer had added the real tional burden of 503,0007. ; and if we go on to value of the terminable annuities and unfunded debt to, I 1867-8, we shall then impose a further additional the nominal value of the public debt, that did not seem to', burden in respect of this conversion, because then him to afford a fair basis of calculation. If the right hon.' there will be no longer any interest on stock paid, but all gentleman meant to tell the committee the real amount of the four quarters would have to be paid according to the the funded debt, it ought to have been taken at 88 instead rate of dividend on terminable annuities. In other words, of 100. He only wished to ask for some little midi ' there would be 5V,0007. more laid on the annual charge on tional explanation upon the subject. the country in respect of the national debt in 1/167-68 over Mr. AYRTON said that he had so often pressed upon and above what there would be in 1866-67. But then, in the Chancellor of the Exchequer the expediency of the 1867-fee expires what is called the dead-weight annuity, abolition of the mileage duties that be must express hie amounting to 5146,0007. a year, and one-half of that, or gratification at their reduction. If he considered it neces -293,0007. would be i mme di a t e ly ava il a ble, so that, in fact, sary to cling to the last farthing. he must do so ; but, as the additional charge in that year would be insignificant in he understood, the matter was still the subject of considers amount. The total additional charge undertaken by all tion, and he should be glad to see the duty finally these arrangements would be 1,005,000 f., the total relief abolished. The reason why terminable annuities had been wouhl be 586,001. e., so that the real or actual charge would for some years poet almost unsaleable was because they be 419, 0 00 1 - a year, if we are to operate in this way at all. had so short a time to rim, and he could conceive that if (Hear, hear.) But ,' then, there is a second operation— new ones were issued for a moderate length of time, operation Ti—which would be this. The house will ob- a d vantages would be taken of them by a large clan serve that this plan must be considered in its effect on the of investors who wished something better than the funds savings bank funds and the economical use of them as well and more certain than life annuities, but who were not as the effect on the national debt. The savings banks would prepared to invest on short date s which would run out be in receipt, as dividends on the 24,000,000 f.. not of ; urn,- g their own lives. He thought that to issue them 7%1.000 1 . a year as now but of 1,725,0007. a year. What are f or 100 years would be as much too long as 20 was too they to do with it The demands of trustees have recently I short, and considered that 60 afforded a very good point, been very large, and if it should happen that the press fur i and that such an issue would attract the attention of =- money should continue, and I have no doubt that those i vectors who, having no children, did not much care what demands will continue to be large, a very considerable por- became of their money after they were dead. He thought tion of that 1,0115,000/. which will come to the credit of the it quite possible to pay off a large portion of the National Debt Commissioners, will be absorbed in meeting 'debt in such a manner, because the additional annual the demands of trustees. But the demands of trustees charge to enable them to do so would be very have never yet reached that amount except upon special „ ma le H t did not know precisely how much, but occksions, and under the influence of extraordinary panic. his belief was that many millions of such annuities would They ordinarily come to 030,000/. or 700,0007. and Ido be taken up if converted. Be asked for some further not think it is li kely they will go beyond that ' amount ' explanation MS to how the chancellor of the Exchequer and it is possible that there will be a portion which it will iroposed to pay off 40.000,000 f. of the itavine , bank debt be requisite to reinvest as the second 'art of the operation; Ly converting only 24,000.010. of public debt into annu that is with regard to the dividends on these annuities itiec Sir F. KELLY had listened with great pleasure to the explanations of the right hon. gentleman with reference to the principle of taxing manufactures in preference to raw material. He, therefore, asked him to fix some e sly evening for the discussion of the expediency of imposing • duty on beer in lieu of the malt-tax. CoIoneIBAWITELOT hoped his hon. friend the member for East Suffolk would move for a committee to inquire into the operation and incidence of the malt tax, which would be of great advantage to the country. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer would grant inch a com mittee he would be in a far better position hereafter to deal with the question. He also called attention to the inequality of the land tax, which pressed very severely on the land in some parts of the country, and was light enough in other places. Mr. WHITE expressed his gratification at the reduction of the fly license from 7!. 10a. to St., and expressed a hope that the occasional license of 3s. a day, which operated 'very injuriously to Hymen at Brighton on such occasions as the volunteer review, would be shortly abandoned. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, in reply to the noble lord the member for King's Lynn, that he had taken the course which was invariably done in estimating the amount of the national debt by taking the nominal value of the funded debt. There was this consi deration to be kept in view in order to arrive at any com parison, namely, that if the government bought in the market, prices would rise. A great portion of the present fund had been purchased at high prices from 1840 to the Crimean war, but since then a more moderate price had been obtained. The consideration on which the public creditor invested his money in the Three per Ceuta. was that it would pay • perpetual annuity of 31. per annum for the payment of 100/. It was quite true as the noble lord had stated that it was probable the redemption might be made gradually at a lower rate. He was much obliged to the hon. member for the Tower Hamlets for the observations he had made with reference to the mileage duty and the retention of the licenses. He did not look upon them as desirable as permanent sources of revenue ; but the fact was, he never had money enough to deal with the whole subject. The observations of the hon. member for Stockport, also those of the hon. member for Brighton, relative to taxes on locomotion, showed the manner in which these different kinds of trade touched one another. The hon. member for Brighton wished to abolish occasional licenses, because, he said, cabmen were unable to compete with stage carriage proprietors in consequence of them. It would be impossible to abolish the occasional licenses whilst the present system continued, for if they did every man would interpret the daily use of his carriage as an occasional use, and thus seek to evade the duty. He would not be able to deal with the whole question of the taxation of locomotion until after the government had received the report of the commission on railways. With respect to the collection of the *venue, he would remind the committee that that was a question hardly germain to the discussion of the financial statement, but he bad no doubt that the Secretary of the Treasury would be happy to give every attention to the subject. He had hoped that these grievances had been got rid of, but he could enure the hon. member that the government was desirous of reducing them to a minimum. There was no doubt that the charge of collection increased very feat, but to understand the nature and bearing of the charge the Post-office must be divided from the Customs and the Inland Revenue. The two latter were economi cally collected, and from his experience in that house he would advise hon. members not to inquire too much into it, as such inquiries tended to increase rather than diminish the cost of collection. (A laugh. j It was a fallacy to compare the expense of the collection the inlandandcustoms revenuewith the Poet-office. Thelat ter was a great and growing establishment, and as its business extended so in proportion must it increase its expenditure. He was unable to give the hon. gentleman the member for Somersetshire an answer as to the game licenses. His im pression was that they were working aatirfactorily. If the hon. gentleman favoarc-d him with the particulars as to which he desired information it should be furnished to him. With respect to the land tax, that was u moat difficult matter to deal with. Those who bad redeemed the tax would consider that they had a claim on the government for the repayment of a large portion of what they had paid. But even if they abolished the tax, he was afraid that some other land tax would have to be imposed. He would advise the hon. gen tleman not to raise the question, as he did not think the land had made abed bargain in referenceto it. He ahould be much suTriaail if the right hon. gentleman the member for Oxfonlahire would encourage the hon. gentleman to inter fere with the land tax, because if they made a clean sweep and got rid of it, he could foresee that some time or other, when money would be wanted, there would be a proposal to lay a new tax upon land, which would probably form • much more seriotte burden than the presant tax. It was a tax which was inherited, and people had taken their land subject to it. With reference to the question of malt the government would meet any proposition which the hon. and learned member for Suffolk might make in the same spirit as on former occasions. It would be for the lion. and learned gentleman to raise it in what form he thought proper, but he thought the hon. and learned gentleman would prefer to deal with it in the form of obtaining some general expression of opinion of the house, rattier than initiate the matter in the form of a bill. He had now to correct t an error, and to apologise for an omission in his statement. He was reminded when he sat down that he had not cor rectly stated the :mica:tit of the national debt that was proposed to be cancelled by the operations to which he hail alluded. There were two operations--one the con version of a book debt of 24 millions into annuities expiring in ]toes, and of course the effect of that would be to extinguish 24,000,000/. of the debt in that year. The other operation was an arrange nent t tinder which it was proposed to take power to invest what he called the spare dividends from the filet operation in I tenninable aiumities. but the omission he made was to state that those annuities would be terminable, not in 1885, but in 1906. It was desirable, however, that the matter should not be removed from the view of parliament for so long a period, and consequently, though the annuities I were not to terminate until 1905, he only proposed to take power to make investments of that kind until 18 , 5. When that period arrived the whole ionaitiou would again come before parliament, which would then have an opportuni.y of reviewing their position. He assumed that one-halt of the new or extra dividends over and aboveth ., 72o,uoo/. interest would betaken for reinveat silent. What he misstated was this, that that would ex tinguish Zia millions. It would do so if the whole were reinvested, but as only one-half of it would be reinvested, s it would only extinguish about fifteen millions iu round numbers. Add to that the twenty-four millions that would a be extinguished in lat4s, and it would give the sum of I 39.000,000/. which would be extinguished in that year. Mr. HUBBARD inquired whether the annual reinvest • ments were to be in the same terminable annuities ex piring at the same time. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that the period would extend 20 years beyond the date of 1885. It would be u it were a turning over with their left hand into the right and then back again. Mr. HVBRARD asked if the income tax was to be levied the same this year as it was last year t The OHANCI:LLoR of the EXCHEQUER. —Yes. Mr. HENLEY thought it would be better not to Mecum the financial condition of the country until they had it more in detail before them. After the alarming statement which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made—he would not say propliciied—as the right hon. gentleman had I flisclaimed it, lie thought the conclusion arrived at was a somewhat impotent one. The CitaittmaB then reported progress and obtained leave to sit again. THE EXCHEQUER AN BI D AUDIT LL. DEPARTMENTS On the consideration of the amendments to this bill, Sir C. O'L4iGHLEN said he must move the omission of the clause which hail reference to the superannuation of those officers who might be appointed under the act. He was surprised at the way in which it had been framed. The clause would enable the officers appointed to re tain office, though incapable of performing any duty, because if they retired before 'serving fifteen years they would obtain no superannuation allowance. The usual form of the clauses 111 other acts ought to be followed, which enabled officers to retire in a less period than fifteen years if they became afflicted with blindness or other permanent infirmity. Mr. CHILDERS said this point was discussed in com mittee, and he was sorry the hon. and learned gentleman was not present when the matter was settled. The clause enacted that if any of these officers belonged to the civil service he would be entitled to a pension. but if not, and be did not serve fifteen years, he would not be so entitled, and the reason was that non-professional persons might be appointed to these offices. The officers of the civil service were not entitled to pensions unless they served 16 years. He thought it was inexpedient to make any alteration in the clause. Sir G. BOWYER said the argument of the hon. gentle man did not meet the objections of his hon. and learned friend, who had stated that officers appointed under this bill would remain in office though incapable of duty, be came they would nut be entitled to pensions under fifteen years' service. Mr. CRAUFURD thought they ought not to deal in a niggardly manner with the officers of so important a de partment. Under the clause as it stood a man could not , get any pension until he had served 15 years, and they ' could not but expect that with such an arrangement a man would continue to hold his office after he had become in capable of discharging its duties in order to make good his title to the pension. Lord R. MONTAGU supported the clause. The clause was agreed to. The remaining amendments were then agreed to. CROWN LANDS BILL T'pon the motion for going into committee on this bill, Mr. AYKTON observed that there was a provision in this bill by which it appeared that an estate called Clare mont was to be granted to her Majesty. If the attention of the house had been directed to this provision at an earlier date he thought it would have seen reason for not proceeding turtherwith the bill, unless the government con sented to vrithdraw that clause, because he believed it was a violation of some important constitutional provisions made by parliament for preventing abuses creeping into the ad ministration of certain public affairs. It had been the practice of the eovereign, when the crown desired to grant any pension or other advantage, amountib to 1,200 t. year, to send a message to that house, stating fur what purpose such charge or pension was granted. He wished. therefore, to ask whether Claremont was to be granted to kal a of the ,x.O Ads. from a to at 13 d we at a 1 is.; tuber con con- _