The Express. — London, England, 1849-07-11 00:00:00

RAILWAYS. THIS DAY, Two o'Czoss. There is little change to notice in shares thiamine ing ; the market eoritiLnes dull, and prices are wiliest much variation. Great Westerns an firm, end were Wight at 83k. Midlands, York and North Midlands, and Berwick, are rather fiat. Other lines are unal tered. French shares are neglected. Wl= alto to4lay up to 1 o'clock. BllMill BAILINATI. AntstyNal.. ll • l 4 l,- J i a War lit lOt sh : s l SW awl Want hostigamilell•OPide sr with • pol•••• D•. without • NAL. sad Ohm _ _ _ 174 to 114 par i Pe a ei air -1 .: 116 ,40i;:. :1;1 tVaa;i We aals paid. og ELL De. TOW soartmee DO" MINL.IIhd Sm— elted aid Sails/ -* Do_ Do. LW roe. Mester sett Holyhead .. Milhaud HAM Jeer. Heat AmellAa ..• Li. isle E. a 714 Do.(31.10o.)0p. Ct. Prof. Do Now p. i D.. Do. Lit, am. P. N 0.2 Do. N.& S. II per C.. De. ow ••• Sown coon. Glow Oats I. b. B. 714 • De. Ham C. 10 Ds. =LC •p. CR) IS DA ol Do. do. f *mu 41 Do. • per Ci. is Ere Lisedashiso Hillobonli old 041 7 0 717 .• ob Do 0 Its b eel* .• Mae It Northers ... 13 z i li . *wren deesar, laved, I LeareL. 10 wed Northeia If Do.. oborts.A. 7 rio.4 oharie B. P. • Do. Esteanke a 4 Ot. Mouth. er d Neat (bee ▪ Great North et Do. Now. fir io Do. Ittrw, ASO ... 13 Do. New, Griot Wooten— Do. lloro a I Do. door Lto. New. AI? Het mad sally._ 0 Loolotoor • Uomobloo sad Toolitilio 13 10 Do. 37w0 WEL I* Do. I.hoels I • 100. Wes a= 13 no. Mom *ire • pg. id riorooC. 13 • Do. NlAnioa owl liednoon L05. 4 110.00.1§ & Do. ja p. Owl • sormosol kis CDT& lin !• MP Do. Prot. II per Ont.. ▪ Do.Corort.l. p.Ct..7332 • Do. thy girl.- 6 PAL I • dairy Looks t Sortlia7 Do. do. *km if liens.. . DallOaL,lLlsialMe) Looks I iloutb.W Do. Mow, /.30 Do. Now ittO 14momb Do.. 1NA...6 7 1,02 - mkt, mad Lim.. D o l v ib A rso, No. 1 .. Do. thong, No. 3 Do. 'honk No. • Do., ow LlO Peet. ... Do., Great Orleadry 1 Do. OS Dot lorato... Do. i 0371 ... Do. Ot Union .. 1) T/0. Oa Prokrooso O Do. 88/0 slow o Do. Ns. mg DOW ... O Do. S. orll. p. Cost 13 DION , ▪ Do. tlooso.ll por Ct Do emon.llo per Ct... • 10446 44464411444 10644.6W41444. mg idiom Swim sal 4.0146 WSW . disum e arroi., 614441 Dw. Eks;:l4l;l4rl . $ 11444wsbory sad Porn . W. KW.) L Do. Orwodoir I De. New.. . l 0 Do. • New... tori L.. 3 Union IS Da Itularsses .. Ilf Dw 310. 1 10 De.,44. 4 Ml4isssd 10 1:10. No. 4 33 Woks . 10 0. Tort, Dia 14 ads.. 13 Sholloid, Itotborbri, sod (look, N. Di. =Vt. 10 Irairlord ood Y.. 33 Woof de. Volley, p. god 33 Do. do. 4$ WM,. Adast.. & Worm . 36 YolVioosodlolli Berwick SD Da. llzlir is is clerk k II Dr y & issiii4l . 4 or" Prima So Yakima &Mk Indleol. to De. 179.0.111 ii . 4 • as 34 'SiI I 0 iii 4 1 I Pammt leawata. harballba (Ye baba so ra It II hums (memo Sri table ... t bee laden Plibala IDe. la. ... .. So Smut @miliaria - .. is Seam al Moe ... 7 Odor art Suilem .. 1M Pads lei Odom .. It Misand tem . ... l• Mb sod mobwer - la Mir lie Ikon ... ... li Mew met One ... „. U Sem isi Saabs .. ... V b. IS IS Si alb die. Ow pas I Ps. per PEL 1 71 es. IA Ms. ill dis. it $1 ji ff ti dak. la_ li. as. 1 4 -fl LIVERPOOL, 1.410. STOCII-EICOIAWON —Tb• fool* to -day Ira coadattally tootcrood; prime alas Imo batter. —941•4 : Loriouldro owl Tort. dire (au Area). a $4 I (Mt Arm. W.I. T.), Of el— imam NA Orr& Wows (1/11 Jar). H 11—Titsak•War. SW IM. ma Limas (pot Arad. 111.-011 s (4 Ana), 14. Oorrorty, log Molar, 41.1.-11oett Foams sod alfrlibern DOM l est. ta ). e. 1 a 1 dia.4 —Tort. oma* sad Bonnet 14. I sotd '3O). et 14 . d.—Dotek nal* ll MANCHESTER, July 10. Luiroz.—Thire mks • very quiet sirsisas, of pr N. BIRMINGHAM , Joly 10. lisesiazasales.—Thissirk4 wee boaelly logroviss roes maw am is be Irk Ist s c a W kike nella Is qv= liM ismilma Ileitis es lam born Ova Irma sioldare 1, So bib= el ea mob Ireskisert; ma dr *NW awe le le Sill Ili mobleveles vet Wpm Win Mg. Tea, ta• wirmlass , bre Ism di* Is Ind slink : Mr. Magian' 011111 g *OMB WKS Ellie Si 13 ; iri =isms sad Cheaters Ma 24 at NI. LERDS, July 10. Oreas-isempi.--Thim WY • En i d this minim So spelallses beige Is New wttlek vow On at Int mili* at ID as. 4112. Thl aid given at Os Tat met North llama atialitin si irlisix7 woe not entlial la the etitie mairesmisMe Nlbous. BRISTOL. .. 1111 Y 10. 01111114aiONAProa.—Tlie market was wait te-day ; the }Nike tames dame Was Is Urea Waiters 171. *ma, wklth douse att II 40 die. YORK, July 10. 4roci-Ihrew•woN-8•1•• : OreatNortbm, 101 ; North Mak Praosaa I. 61. ; North Ikabrdsktr% 14 ; LaDolds labookos. aod Goa.. Dte., 111; Tort. Nowssula as 4 Borviok. leis Do. iliarmals Lskaka), 14; York sod Nora Indlood Pro• Lassa 011E181.--Ikussvai, July 10.—ne tem:Own =O - tike deared very laeetive, sot prim rale.rd ail under : no. t• ILI( Cooled, 426. to 465. Rite, SU to Me. BM 12a 4 SU. sr cwt. se as si N St a I THE EXPRESS. WEDNESDAY EVENING. JULY 11, 1849. The Earl of HAREO WBY ,on p resenting the petition from Newfoundland , sai d he should on a future day, call attention to the subject. IRISH POOR LAWS. Lord MONTEAGLE asked when the annual report of the Irish Poor Law Comen,sionen would be presented. This report ought to be presented before the house discussed the , subject of the Irish poor laws. The returns hitherto had 1 been very inaccurate. The quaint was notanswered. THE RIVER PLATE. Lea COLCHESTER asked what bad bun the rogues e of the atheilati be her Majesty's rummest and th piemo ons seat a Basses Apes relative to the pacification ef the anotries hadering on the River Plate. He was biros& that there war some prospect of a treaty bobs radmied • ihe brie if Mr. Hood's intrados'. He hoped Ws wee the say wit wee of the greatest impat iens to the eammerce o l f il athrod that the navigation of the doer Plats should be o The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said the French go -1 enomeat sad ours had offered their mediation, and ire 1 thieved that we shield soon become joint parties to an MoMiesmica, elfish wield be of great advantage to our essemeree w that part of the world. He entertained a san mina hope that, by the joint action of both governments, shat sleet wo ul d be attained. (Hear, hear.) Lad HOWDEN was aware of his irregularity in sa tiric = lortaaEtbis occasion , but he must throw • their . As some ansionhad been made le him la thrwese and ae he was not In the house when *1 snidest was last under discussion, although in the roes of that debate his conduct was much =Ord vestal upon, he perhaps might be permitted to trespass on their lordship' attention for a very short time. He had ban area the subordinate task of mining into effect the instructions of others ; it, therefore, was no pat of his duty to defied these boarnetices. He , had endeavoured Their to ray them labs szeration to the beet of his ability. lendadge were probably aware that at the first blockade of arm Aby the French, General Oribe was deposed hams h e m reined to allow Argentine prim to be eon domed In the pets abases Apes. His weeteseor, Gene ral Mien. wee mot or rengekom. There was no legality ia th es is blotkede, in OM mss,bloczada, i s Ilea, oar own essurook Mr. Hood was ant eat with iniewethas fee effe cting the peel- Imam of the eitaseant Median( ea the river Plan That geedbmeo was set a sioisat station to make heed spirt the two anther plesdpieweday, who were opposed to his views. In the spring of no her Majesty's minister at the Janeiro wee trzstr.a to th e River Plate to eadesavoor to make a of does differences the um godatiregreseeith froureblyeall daycare to the clauses =meth the River Panora. Gooiest Ewes required mere than had bees settled by the Beglisla and Fara saionneats. Ho ielifbet ithis views with respect to the Parma were adored, then the question as to the Grew might remain to be settled by the governments in Bangs. The chief object of the negotiations having failed, the two pinipotentisnes went to the other side of the River Plate to offer an armistice, until an answer could be received from Flame. It wee stated to Gen. Oribe, that if he speed so the armistice, the blockade would be raised ; bat the blockade of Braes Ayres was not effectual it did not pre vent the fist - bottomed boats of the counter f rom trading, but kept out the 'Amens. rigged vends frost Luidon and Liver pool, and the innumerable WOWS belonging to AMAMI. It was arranged that these vessels should pay a sum to the Custom-house at Moat* Vida, aid then they should be al lowed to proceed to Brace Ayres. Black mail was thus levied on Esilish ships, for the support of a horde of 1 marauders. Only one man was disinterested, and he was "lad to pay him a posing oomplimint—a man who had throe °coupled a prominent position in Italy. He meant Oar- IbeldL With regard to the Independent* of Monte was an suer to suppose that its indepeadones had been reergabed at the congress at Rio Janeiro. In conclusion, he might perhaps be excused for observing, that he bad received from her Majesty's government the highest approbation of his fondue. The Earl of BLARROWBY, who was all but inaudible is the gallery, said be understood that the armistice which bad been proposed, and to whisk the noble lord had referred, was in effect that the town aldose" Video should be opened to the whole of the country in:tag the esatiasesse of the armistice, and thme terms were naturally attailed to by (bibs, the receding general. After seam ether observations, which were quite inaudible the noble earl eeld that the noble lord (Rowden) had ;nen anogly of the indepen dence of Monte Video not bonen beta guaraisteed by him. I He, however, begged to say that if there was • positive and hred is g ts en e c ,. the, honour of this omatry was pledged to iM The Had el ABERDEEN was happy to find that the table theripie had termed himself with so much emit thine se to the probable termination of Ibis matter. He however, the probability of snore depended = ll4 en whether the queen' to be resolved wee to be finally determined by England and Farm If it was. he had little doubt but that they weal& some to an agreement ; but if the qua ' ties wee termer back to Buenos Ayres he bad no doubt tbae the libels swotted= would fall to the ground. Tbe I nob& inee en aimportance to news, the security of the bibillefillbell Si OS " Oriental State!' Isaff 11101A 1 311ONT said he had in a former debate on snidest due:NA the pumas who had raised the loan at Man Tithe as mere jobbers. Since that time he had esesibised that they were all households'', and that their objet wee not so much to farther their pecuniary interests, uto keep the bone Wean government ming; but NT tanly not out of love to that government. He believed that what thine persons had done wee in so way disc:ratable to them. POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL. This bill was read a first time, sad the Marquis of Law& owns gave notice that he should move the second reading on Friday next. MARRIAGES IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES FACILI- T BILL. On the motion of Lord EDDISDOILY, this bill was reed a seared time. Their lordships then adjourned at a quarter before 7 earth HOUSE OF COMMONS.—Tus3OAT, :tax 10. Thu Eirissits took tho chair at 4 o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. SECOND READING.—RoyaI PoriHos (Brightsa) PUBLIC BUSINESS. PETITIONS PRESENTED. PAILIAIII3ITART AND Mr. RITORX—By 080 Mo B, from Finsbury, In fay. ta FINANCIAL r of that* obirote. Tao Psorts's CNAITSII-131 Mr. C. LUSHINGTON, (2) hem Weismiastar, is favour of dm pe-ple's charter. PNOTTCTION OT WONSN Bitia—By Mr. C. LUSEING. TON. from amain Wesleyan' ot Westminster in favour of this bill. Tin Rotas Emusuo—By Mr. G. THOMPSON, from Finsbury, is favorer of the resopitica of ths Raman repnblie. Bursavrrer LAW CONSOLIDATION Bus.—By Mr. BAI24ES, from London, is favour el the bill. BRIGHTON PAVILION BILL. The bill was read a seeped time, and ordered to be refused to a select onsawittee. CHOLERA INQUESTS. Mr. Alderman HU bIPHERY said that be had been smi by his oonstiturnrs to ask whether the Secretary Ile W Inv Department bad isespd any directions to the aumeor f o r Burp y to hold inquests in all oases supposed to be deetbe frem cholera. Bach a coarse would entail much espouse es Ow distrlet. Ilk G. WM said he bad given no direction on the sub lest. He bed received sev•ral application. from districts bath In Leaden and in the country, to know whether it eras neon/are to all eases of death by cholera, inquests should be held; 'the only answer be gave was. tha he had no power to control the ditcretion ES af the AT CARDIFF.e cuoners in th matter. ASSIZ In reply to De. NICKOLL, Bir 0. GREY said that he believed the assizes at Cardiff bed been poetponed ineoneumnos of the messes of cholera in that town. THE IRISH CONVICTS. In Imply re. Mr. Ammer, sir 0. GREY saiA that two ernes of cholera had averred's the ship in which "(sews. Watts sad Diberty hal b err thusly embark , d, and .t-her errseements were wade for tiv , eenveyenes of the wesalnien omens,. N o f ur th er aim b a d tweurred en board tits ship in which Mews. lairds sad Doherty were. FRENCH DUTY ON COALS. Loyd IL VANE sibs" the 8 crew, of 8 ate for Foreisra Affair' whether hi• attention had been directs." to the high duty lapsed hy France on coda itsperted int* that wintry by sea, waspersd with that levied on soils isvetod on the land frontier by the Meuse, and through the deportment of 1.19 *Sale ; studio in the event of hie attendee been ilWeensd to that subjeet, he entertained say haaatlat W Finish goy/newt woad consent to equalisei Mount PAM/RUSTON said that the attention of the Meerrement bed been long directed to this subjeistoled mu* iseglegrenfleeee had takes place with the French mint dm the porpses of effecting .)nearer approximation to the I eigms el tile the ot 1826, and he could enure the odd* beril that the efforts of the government to effect this "Wet weld not be relaxed. JUVENILE CRIMINALS. Mr. MILNES said it had been his intention to have =&llit under tbe wenderatioa of the house at some the treatment eadi oesdition of juvenile criminals in skiseenerry, bat Ills I=tiction of videos returns which Itail hew wed Ow it impossible for him cm this WNW te do judge to so important a subject. He abedil, ffisesdims ausly touch upon the general question. No EasMali visit any of our prisons without being sensibly with the wretched cordiiion of the juvenile ie- Ome broach of the reformatory process which be &Odd weeireend was the institutioa of a system of flogging in the me sieges of aim*. The nest was the introduction of ass a mode of treatment in the prisms as would deprive them of Hair esetfort, and by mum et hard and centinuous labrear, lea es oakum picking, to induce in juvenile offenders WAIN of s adinkrus labour. He would also combine with rate muse of punishment a system of educates and d lednetka is the usefal arts whereby youthful aimi. ash MOM titan the snaps of earning then living honestly. Under time Weeriasteraces, all be could say at present was that be bored the government, and particularly the right hon. beroset, would, during the ensuing release, apply them selves to the angiteation of some remedy for the evils he had demonstrated, and he begged leave to aoudads by moving for leave to bring in a bill to alter the treatment and condi tion of juvenile criminals in this country. Mr. HUME seconded the motion. Sir G. GREY said he should have felt disposed to give his went to the motion, on the ground that it was not aim' the expression of benevolent sentiments, bat the framing and I embodying such a system for reforming criminals as would I offer the maw for overcoming the immense difficalties that were is the way of legislating on the subject of juvenile offenders. If the hon. member bad had a bill prepared, with all the minute details which such a manure most of necessity consist of, he should have been inclined to allow it to be brought in, but be must protest against the assump tion of the non. member, that the subjoin was easy to be dealt with, it being, in get, one of the most difficult and impracticable questions that ever owe under the coosidease ties of the government. Mr. BANKES said that the chief consideration in respect to juvenile criminals was to separate them from felons of a more advanced age. He was glad to see the "ob ject in such good hands ; he had himself prepared a measure on this important question ; but he had no doubt the hon. member's bill would produes the desired results, and he most heartily wished him success. Sir J. PAKINOTON was of opinion that a committee would have been the best way of dealing with this difficult question, as he suspected that the hon. member bad not pre pared the bill which be had ask :d leave to briog in. Mr. HENLEY hoped that the hon. member would go one step further and bring in a bill, thereby giving the house the advantage of his wisdom and experience in guiding them through the immense difficulties that surrounded the whole question which he had brought under consideration. Sir G. GREY said, in answer to Mr. Bankes, that the bets stated by him came to his knowledge for the first time sow, and that he would immediately inquire into teem. Mr. M. MILNES espressed his intention to bring in a I bid Won the session closed. Lew was them given to bring in the bill—Mr. M. Manes sad Mr. Ruffian to prepare it. IRISH CHURCH TEMPORALITIES. Mr. B. OSBORNE said he bad been appealed to in pri vate for the purpose of inducing him to put off his motion en the subject of the Irish church, and he now publicly gave his answer to that appeal by stating that it was not in his power to empty with that request, as he knew his only chance for keeping a house, as far as the whig government was concerned, assisted in thacircumstance that his motion was prior in the paper to a motion of the Attnrney-General for leave to bring in a bill connected with the law. He had hoped that when the whig government floated into power they would havo taken some measures wards reforming those flagrant abuses in the Irish church which they bad, when seated on the opposition honcho, so incessantly and vehemently denounced. When the whirrs were in opposition the abuses of the Irish church formed their slogan. They were the gathering war cry of the pment men in office, but for the last few years that cry had not been raised, and the instru ment that had been once so loudlr and so frequently sounded was now like the fabulous harp of Tara bung up and unstrung. It should not be his fault if the notes of that instrument did not again resound within the walls of the house. The ques tion he was about to enter upon was of the utmost cone*. queues. Many hon. gentlemen would recollect that in July, 1846. his hon. friend, the member for Finsbury (Mr. T. Bun combe), in of the noble lord, the first minister of state, on what principles his government would be eon. ducted? The noble lord was very much astonished at such a queen, and with some tautness he replied, "upon the opinMm he had always professed, and the priaciples he had always acted ou." (A laugh.) Well, many thought that answer was more cart than explanatory ; others, how ever, thought that the noble lord had only to get his feet firm in the *drupe to settle this much vexed question. f he (Mr. Osborne) had had an doubts at that time, they were dispelled when he saw the constitution of the noble lord's cabinet, for it was compoud of noble lords hadtlmen who from the year 1823 down to 1845,given constant votes and made many able speeches to prove that the Irish church, as by law erablished, was the root of all discontent in that country. (Cheers, and laughter.) The noble lord had now been three yew in office, but he main tained a most remarkable silence upon this subject. Ire land was only to be renovated by measures in detail, and not one word was to be beard about the Irish church. (Hear • hear.) In 1823 the question of the Irish teupoialities was first moved in that bow by that pioneer of all insprovein •nt, the member for Montrose. In 1833 Lord Althorp brought in a bill to amend the laws relative to the Irish church. By that bill the vestry ease was abolished, and 10 bishops were removed ; but the pr i nc iple of the bill, the great appropriation clause—the 147th dame, was, as his thought, in an evil hour abandoned. In 1834, Mr. Ward, not at all daunted, conjured up the old shade of a ppropriation, and with so much success that, like Batman's ghost, it broke up the cabinet of the noble lord. (Hear.) That cabinet, however. was patched up again, and on March 30th, 1835, the noble lord at the head of the go. venimient brought in a motion on the Irish chuck, is the course of which he said : Otter* was a totem compact between thepargament of the United Kingdom and thepeople, gives by the King. ressind Wiles and approved by the Lords •.—The dated trend Wbog= sow la amerced greet embarrassment to everystatemierithiessems try ; there is nodoubt that the moral as well es Oriel coodidea of the people is one of great degradation. The quesien I Inn le sea. elder is their moral ourtition, and low far the ahem& sehablieheased in Ireland bears on that condition. You are net le l us WO alit cannot listen to the well-founded !grievances et bdii. Nil see prepared to do her justice; and yet ii.sist on is mamma te the legigative union. That was strong lain coming guage from the dolt minister of the day, and accordingly the hew Owed upon that occasion an appropriation clause. I In 1843 Mr. Smith O'Brien, who, however the home again blame him for his rashness, would at least be admitted to have been an boom member of parliament—(hur, hear)l —brought forward a motion to inquire into the causes of Irish discontent, and be found that upon that occasion the right hen gentleman the Chancellor of the Esohoquer (who be sees sorry to see was sot in his place) the Chancellor of the Exchequer—then Mr. Wood, and 'Ming opposite—made ass of tw e e nerds—sad he trusted the right hon. gentleman the President of the Board of Trade would take them down in order that he might tell his right hon. friend what hie sentiments had been in 1843. (A laugh) Well, the Chan delle' of the Etedbruator upon that occuien said ; Ms evils of berme an usdbmand, sod of greet =pita,. I Wompt the Inc we the lute ot the e _ awn- he did set Weals a me n paws mummy. liat if et the Rune Whelks er Weld end little es inn seadenees did bee bed arrived at. 111 adst ami ncelt threw% mentries et ffiweps, they we d =fiZ ef them win* ma endildemeit melentnee he the heed' sr awe of the pepnlnbm. It toes nst he hos. =Wm ea bb PM I aft le /•••••• • gelhar; %nese aet or die se rowendlle porde. weighs% a mob be at els =at. Se mead lend* bel been Old dew. It was ear an air meilders of as eppentbm le wpm measures sad perils a reedy for the ed. He (Mr. Osborne), however , skean go teethe' than the eight hoe. gentleman, and should emleaveer to repent a Mr Indy. and a remedy, ton. to which the debt les gentlemen had already assented (Hey, hear.) Well, then, the right bent. gentleman the Secretary for Ireland (Sir W. Somer ville) got up and mode. for him, upon that occasion, a mot animated speech. (A laug h ) He did not say that invidi nerdy ; but the right hon. gentleman was highly mind. He said, another great Flews* of Imbed um the Zetablisteed (hutch of the minority. Be had heard it said that the !government would net moven that giteetion. He would ask the eonsereative and , hristian isotherms at England. if they were in the situation of the Id* would they submit to it I Would they not must it t They would. He appealed to the Arise hon. gentleman now as " a am seevative and a Christian gentleman," would he resent that hinny ? (Great laughter.) He found that the right hon. gentleman the member for Ripon (Sir J. Graham) also a d m itted the propriety of dimension, for he admitted that it was a most important subject, and that it was at the bottom of all their difficulties. In 1844, so afraid was the noble lord (J. Russell) of the question being taken out of his hands by Mr. Smith O'Brien. that be mewed for a committee to invitee ism the stare nf Ireland, eat thereupon again a mat remarkable debate ensued. The noble lord said : Wats the ministers of the crown, now In sSee, shrink from the inmemlbrtity of maintaining the dcetrineewhieb the, maintaired who Y earin•hiea. end of huardinw the peace of Inland, by a mess ilagrust violation of Infilantentary faith, I have no roundemse to wait kir ether meson?... With regard to the hide rung, the trstein wide% I should be disposed to adopt would be one which should put the Established Church, as regards Roman cath..lies and protestanto, on a footing of per feet equality. He thought the house would my thet that was pretty strong Immure t but what would they think of this) He had pseitively rubbed his eyes when he saw it. Here was the opinion of the right hon. gentleman the Secretsry of State should Hew Departuvnt; and it wee the last quotation he make from the rse eche"' of esbinet ministers, bemuse it was a climax. (A laugh. The right hon. gentleman said— It is impoeilde for any ens who knows the feelings of human na ture, to suppose that the Irish people • an look n on the recent .tate of theeeelesiseleal erten in•Treland witbau , the deenetdeaatisfaction. I , is not • nuns gratin.' of money, it is one which °ramie the feel -I,‘„, of a rode mon rh the creation be beet with difitonttr. I deny it to be • dill-ulty mdhient to deter a MnMer of the crown from dealing with R. On this subject I certain, "anemia vary strong fretless. ris, I wet say, eothing appears to me worse, nothing more imaMetse then for uthemeat mender. they win not entertain the .earsies of the Inthisnesh Wme 1t is be= with difficulties. Us Diem mem ee mmems het •esmptees swim never weld be o mpae=. bute. Ima end inivened Church °gibe rit =m y ealsted. rilow what aid the Mese Wok of that ? (Cheers.) That was in 1844. The whole of the cabinet voted for that motion of the noble lord's, awl all the present race of lords of the treseury. and people of that class. lauh. Bat in the year 1846 Mr. Ward moved a very r emar k ab le mend et to the motion of the eight bon. baronet the member for Tem worth, on the question of Maynooth, to the effect that all the funds for the s-stentation of Maynooth should be taken out of those devoted to ecclesiastical purposes in Ireland. Mr. Ward was in a very large minority upon that occa sion, in which he was joined by the noble lord at the head of the government, the right hon. gentleman the Sanitary fur the Haws Department, and the rest of the go vernmeut. He hoped whatever course the government might adept with regard to this motion, that they would not, at all I mots take the course recently adopted by the right bon. gentleman, who thought that this was a question of the "deepest moment," and move the previous question (Hear, hear.) People out of doors were extremely puzzled to make cut what that " previous question" meant. If they wanted a title for the present seasiOn, he should s 7 they might christen it the session of previous question"— =eau and laughter)—for never, in all the annals of parliament had that motion been so frequently made. (Hear, hear.) Ignorant, however, as people out of doors might be, those within that house knew very well that the previous question was nothing more than a parliamentary sleight of hand to cut the acquaintance of old friends who had been useful in oppo sition, but who might bring discredit on the party when they succeeded to power. (Cheers.) He had now given abrief and imperfect sketch of the birth, parentage, and abandon ment of the Irish church question—(a laugh)—and if be had attempted its rieurrection he had done 53 because, in the words of the right hon. baronet at the head of the Home Department, he did not think it a mere question of money alone, although he would have tee financial reformers of England to look about them, and to recollect when the tax gatherers called at their door, =considerable portion of their money went to sustain the army in Ireland necessary to the support of the Irish church. (Hear.) He had revived this ques tion because he thought it flue n t , mperial as well as an Irish question, beam". he felt co whatever measures they might pus, however beneficial they might be , howeve r the y might deal with the land or the law, that so lon as they left the Irish ehuech se it was at present, so long would Intend be, not merely the difficulty of the minister, but the embarrass neat of the empire—so long would the noble lord be justi fied in going down to that house and telling them, as he had dose in 1844, that Inlaid was "occupied and not governed" —en long Ireland would be occupied and not governed by whatever minister presided in this country,. and so long would Ireland remain, in the graphic wens of the hon. member for Buckinghamshire,. in • state of " social decom position." (Cheers.) It was impossible, however, to judge of the present state of Ireland correctly without reference to , its peat history. He knew there were some enthusiasts who, adopting the views of Archbishop Usher, asserted that Ire land never was really Roman catholic that Se Patrick never was a Roman catholic bishop, but a regular orthodox divine of the evangelical school. Be that as it might, however,l there could be no doubt that St. Patrick was educated at I , Rome, that he maimed the name of Patricia', and that he was sent to Ireland by Pope Celestine. No doubt a schism between the Irish church and Rome did occur as to the computation of Easter, but the Irish church submitted.) and was reconciled to Rome. The reformation in Ireland I wee founded on the question of appropriation. The original releemen who went there cued very little about the cow union of Irish souls—their object was confiscation, not ems union and they had been denounced by Creamer se greedy and co vetous ' reformers. It would be acknowledged that the Monsen had failed, and that the history of the einettth In Ireland had been written in blood ; for Elisabeth, thatch a very good Penults in this country, was a nen there. (Hear.) In 1 635 , when L:Zlsellni =tete were 'questioned, that nobleman stated in his that they had not been undertaken alone I le P r a l e increase of revenue, but also meet epee. stilly for the advantage of proteetantism. In 1635, however, English troops, the army :of occupation of OM day, were not • very great expense upon this country, Wenn they were maintained by fines levied on Roman eathedice who did not attend the protestant church—and one of the " graces" that was sought for was to be allowed to absent themselves from the protestant church without being fined. It was well known that that excellent person, as many thought him,: Charles I. pocketed 120,0001. for those " graces," but never kept his pledges. He new came to the policy of Cromwell, which was written in one word," extirpation"—(hear, hear)—who gave to the Irish the agreeable altereadve of being sent to hell or Connaught. Then in 1732 the Duke of Onifton procured an act to pan the Irish parliament of a most disgraceful character. By this act the protestant parliament of Ireland sought to debate every Roman catholic priest to a level with the unsexed guardians of • Mehemet= seraglio! It was sent to Ragland, and Cardinal Fleury remonstrated with Sir R. Walpole upon it, whosuppremed the act. He would challenge the history of say country to produce such an Algerine act as that—it wee known in histonameless act." (Hear i hear. n ) lie passed over als o he question of the union ; but t woeoto rious that union votes were bartered for Irish bishoprics (Hear, hear.) How stood the case now ? After nearly 300 years, that church, in spite of all the advantages of revenue and political supremacy, stood very much in the same com dittos as when she was first planted in that country. Had they shaken the faith of the Roman cathelio classes of teat country? He denied it altogether. They might revile them as beggars, but they could not taunt them as apostates. There was • Orem which they wed to bear more frequently formerly than they did at the present mo ment " justice to Ireland." He had always been very much puzzled when right honourable gen tlemen used it, to know exactly what they meant. He knew that there was • large and most respectable party in Inland and in the house who meant identity of institu tions ; he, for one, must say, that he dissented from that doctrine : he considered it not only to be a fallacy, but a misfortune. He considered that the endeavour to put English laws, the result of long commercial pree penty, upon Ireland, was most unfortunate. It a p . paired to him that her Majesty's government had taken for their example, that of the great practical economist of antiquity, Procreate.; ell their measures were asplied without consultation to the feelings of the Irish ; because • measure worked well in England, it wss immediately A taken foe greeted that it would work well in Intend. t one time your legislative Procreates had endeavoured to stretch Roman catholic couseionees to true protestant dimensions by the screw of penal laws, at another to cut short their purees by an English poor-law, constructed in n ausea of the country and the moot extraordi nary thing was that this prictice was confined to Ireland elms. Take the wse of Scotland—compare Scot land with Inked. There was no cry of " justice to Seat land." Why? Scotland retained all her native institutions ; she had her civil aid criminal law ; we tried to saddle her with a bench of bishops and a church, but Staked refused, and we had not only acknowledged her church, but given I,2ool.syear to the episcopal clergy. What was the consequence of our governing Scotland through a sentiment of nation ality ? The consequence was that Scotland was a quiet end inexpensive neighbour: that then were at this moment only 2,000 soldiers in Scotland, and Scotland gave no trouble whatever; but she had her own church and her own system of law, and if we did hear of a little discontent when Unlearned lord (the Lord Advocate) brought forward a marring bill, and which was only carried by five, he would no doubt withdraw it. In Ireland you had wit Elea law, English church ; Ireland had not one native institution except the constabulary. What was the consequence ? The rich protestant ehurcb was a miaoriry . They ignored the existence of any other creed, and gave the regimes dowel to preebyterians, and neglected the catholic"; they busily owned their =beano.. They had as srmy of nearly 60,000 men, including the pensioners of police, and they had the native Institut i on, the eonstabulwy. Com pere the two systems. Would it not be more economical. more wise, more just, to rule Ireland se you ruled Seetnnil, through the sentiments of nationality and through her affre doe. Let the house ask itself, did the Irish church promote Of did it impede the spiritual and moral improvement of the people ? We should cot have to go further than that. Theban. would real the division the other night on national educe d's'', and only look at the conduct of some of the heads of the Irish church en account of nation.] education. Because they could not teach the people according to their own view of thinking—because they could not comeel Roman ...thorn parents to send their children to hear what theY called the unmediated Bible, they objected to any education at all, like reconeet Oliver l'zise thra d eert ea tn an tis la ho k p td d f oloun i"n eed iman the eY ;obt h ro rdh ' es measures, that he called these the Devil's school., and that they had done everything to hinder the clergy from atro aiming these schools, he Joked, was the condition of this chart* slice as to impede or promote the spiritual aid morel improvement of the people. and he was content to leave the Question of spiritual improvement on that hese ? It had been said that this church was of an expen sive nature. It was curious, in talking of the expen sive nature of proteetantiem, to see how the Reman Whelks had progressed and how the peon/dents hid diminished in that artistry, Seder the influence of the estithliehed church. He would go as tar back as 1672, when Sir W. Petty, in " Ameileasy of Ireland," ite. Wel nemlierethemiletants in Ireland be sets down at 1,100.000. mug mew OWN wan name catholic% and 150,000 legal pro. geremlst Ae residne nieseof ;mists. Sir W. Petty says : One Weep is Intend Is move than tbirty it Engliod ; to him he would gam MOW ayes. To t5O ministers Its would give Mt. each per Thena"e we cams down reh h e ß present time. d It appeared from I a return made to the ris num of Lor d s that the pewits et= in 1728 was 1,700 000 ; 700,000 returned w Pro testant'. In 1734 the Roman catholic. were two tome to testents. In 1824 there was • curious return made on the evidence of Mr. Leslie Foster before the House of Lords by the protes tant clergymen of the number e' their flocks. Out of a ovulation of 6,801.827, they rave 1,2E19,358 protestan's. They took in not only the legal protestant' but the non-eon fOrnsists. In 11134 there was another return made, and by that return we find that the lee.' pretestants had donned 752 064. whilst the Reuses catholic. hael incre to 7 913,940. In 1841, the protestaws wire 852 000, end the Roman cathodes remained the same. So that the Roman catholic., in spite of chartered echo , Is, had inereaeed nearly seven to one. (Hear, hew.) So much for the expansive ) force of prwestandens. He rams now to a very ointerial point ; be wine now to the return of benefices , which was made in 1837, of the number ci mote-tants. There ea. a report of a commission of public instraction in 1837 on Irish benefices, from whin% it. annewed that there wen 99 benefices, with lees then 29 preernanta. 154 ditto with between 20 and 50 protestant% 41 without °math& protast.nt. • Here was a meat fallacious way of viewing this question in reference to the church eviler. 0 iwlerneu tone u p Hell:wen'. Almanac, and site a certain numbn of a:tingt, put down, and then said, what a large congregation this IMPERIAL P. HOUSE OF LORDS.—TUZSDAT, itilLY 10. The Berl of EI N AIIZIBUIT (Deputy Speaker) took his seat at 6 o'idock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. SECOND REA DlNOS.—lrish South Easters Railway (amenstrat of acts) ; Taunton Town and Market Improve ment; Lancaster and Preston Junction Railway Acts s Asleadiaent (power to alter tolls sad for appoiatmeat awn) ; Easton Comities leaseorfolk Railways Amalie. sinus ; Hone Reservoirs ( of rates and amendment et avizel Al l en an Dante/alias Railway (deviatios to Allem Barbsur, diversion of certain works. eats.- sin at time for eoup'ating line and taking load, sad ansad ment ants) ; Caledonian Railway (lease or . purolaame of the Okminaw, Bari bead, and Neileton Direct Railway); J. THIRD READlNG.—Laneashire and Toddy , Beii way (Wean= of Ashton breach of Clifton brands, as. SRL PUBLIC BUSINESS. PEIITIONS PRESENTED. Raman or Turned .— the Bishop of ROCHESTER, Been clergy of dill of Colehei ter ; also from the B erg et the rani &many of Hocking, in Bases ; the Bishop of ST. Af3APII, from slams in his diocese, eon Oolong of the swim in which tithes are rated. NIVITOIINDIAND.—By the But of HARROWBY, from the House Amend! of Newsosadlad, calling the attn. dos of the hoses to the • saner la which portime of the king 011111M4 had boss gives up to the French and Amni ons, and the bonny given to them, in ocasequenoe of whisk the patitioners could not samento with them. The Enclosure Act (Bstonelos of Powers) Bill, and the Mtn for Schools Bill emerally paned through committee, end ware reported to the home. NEWFOUNDLAND. church has. The church which he attended was put down ea having 100 sittings, when the congregation was only 35. Number of churches in diocese of Erni, l2 Ditto of sittings Itathroosau, diocese of Lend" 100 dttinp...No protestant/. Daeonebmore ditto No protestant". Ontragh ditto No protestant'. And he got a letter this morning in which there was mention of a parish In the county of 'Waterford which bad not one protestant. He came now to the dio cese ef Glary, and Ossory was a remarkable diocese, because you would expect to find more pro tostants there, the great bulk of the pioperty being held exclusively by protestant proprietors. He referred to a pamphlet published by a gentleman well known in the law, Mr Serjeent Skim, and he recommended it to the perusal of the government and the church of Rome in Ireland, and he wrote as follows:—" In Callan, in the diocese of Chatty, there was (+bathroom for 256, t he income was 2,1971. Ifs. 7d., and the congregation 871 During the progress of the late trials at Clonmel whilst the Roman catholic chapels were full the congregation in the protestant church was eight -seven , besides tea soldiers belonging to a regiment in the town. The established church of Ireland bad the care of 852,000 souls, and for that duty the state provided 2 are - bishops, 10 bishops, and 2,207 clergy. One of the archbishops had 12,0671 , the other 7,7861. per annum. Clogher, 10,0001.; Derry, 8,0001.; the clergy, amongst them, 680,8381. He did not reckon palaces, parks, or glebe houses. The estates belonging to the bishops consisted of 6,692,247 acres. He looked upon Dublin University as being one of the engine' of the church, end found there had been no less than 3,361,6001. advanced since the union for the support of the protestant church. Was this state of things to be allowed to continue? What was the case in France and Scotland ? There were— Thirty talks Roman catholic* in Trance. Revenues-1,500,0001. retest emeelird ottbis required is Ireland for less than a m Sion pr ; the metestent church of France has 150,0001. per edam& Meath. remossofthe Scotch church :—ln thelime of Adam Smith theyeeshyMrisaelturebbad 50,0000. per annum. The Scotch alter* at praise had about 200,0000. In Ireland, 9e0,000 protes tant' ; 1,613 Demises with staff ; 2,207 ministers ; '7,000,000 Roman enthaille 2,861 priwge. The state provision for 1100,000 protestints smeewtee to MOM. per annum ; ditto for 7,000,000 Homan ewesnil. his a state of things which a government, and, above all, a whig government, should suffer to continue year after year in Ireland ? In 1835 they took the tithe egistment ; it was said it was to strengthen t o ff t h e interest. Ia 1831 they confiscated 25 per ce n t. of the tithes ;in 1833 they abolished vestry cress, and ten bishoprics. Before the rebel lion in Canada there were certain lands appropriated for the sustainment of the protestant faith. After the rebellion— and he regretted to say that we never did any of these things till blood had been shed—an set was passed m this house, by which these clergy reserves were taken away, and at the preeent day then clergy reserves, which wee, meant lon the protestant church, were given for the sustainment and payment of the Roman catholic church in Canada. The bishops all consented to the passing of that bill e=%* the Bishop of Eater, who looked upon it as sacrilege. Is asking the house to go into committee to consider the tea poralities of the church of Ireland, he had too intention of abolishing the Irish church. He was convinced that every useful reform must be founded in mutual forbearance. He did not wish to interfere with vested rights, but was anxious to have the congregational plan adopted if practicable, as being much more expedient than the present tetritorial system. He found that in the diocese of Chester one bishop, until lately, presided over 1,500,000 souls, while in Ireland there were ten bishops to 800,000. (Hear, hear.) That was to say that in Ireland there was one bishop to each 118 benefices, and in Eng land one to 410. Gentlemen were in the habit of crying out, " More bishops:" his ay was, " More working clergy.' He should propoee, if they went into committee, to reduce the church of Ireland to one archbishop, at 4,0001. a year, and the ten bishops to five, at 2,0001. each. Many, he knew, would object to this, but he looked upon it as a matter of compromise. (Hear, beer.) He believed that such a plan would meet the approval of parliament. The noble lord, the first minister of the crown, had already given in his adhesion to the congregational system. The noble lord, in Feb., 1844, said: I concur in the plan propounded, es it is said, by Dr. Whitely, the Archbishop of DORN for making it a church of congregations, not parishes, as under the present system. I think tho protestant church ought** be fully provided for, but I do not believe that anything like the amount at present allotted to it is necessary for the purpose. II yen sompue amount allotted to the Irish church with that of Bachand, and in most continental countries, you will say it la sot ne -0111•1111. It might be said that this was not a proper time for enter taining-the question. If it were not, when would be the proper time ? (Hear, hear.) la committee he should pro. pose the following resolution—" That it is the opinion of this committee that any surplus that may remain, after fully providing for the spiritual instruction of the Protestants of Ireland should be applied locally to the education of all classes." (Hear, hear.) Het had now, at some length, in troduced this motion. He trusted that the house would not think at unnecessary length—(Hear, hear)—but before he sat down he must warn the government that they need not look upon the present state of Ireland as one affording any real grounds of satisfaction. They had heard of large and comprehensive measures for that country, but all ministers had done upon succeeding to office was to suspend the Habeas Corpus, and to pass an amended poor law, following in their amen dment tho plan of an eminent pathologist, who attempted to feed a starving dog with the produce of its own tail. When the poor law failed, they passed a mein aid. (" Hear," and laughter.) They (the government) bail lately had a bloodless triumph, and had paralysed agitation for the present, but they must not think that in doing so they had extinguished the feelings or sym pathies of a nation. He warned them not to mistake the silence of famine and despair for the tranquillity of happi ness and content. (Hear.) If he were allied to the govern ment, or had weight with them, he would not urge that this was not the proper time, but would advise them to seise the opportunity that Providence presented, and boldly to put this question which was at the root of all the heartbunnog and discontent which had too long prevailed in Ireland, on the footing which their former professions and the history of their party justified the people in expecting from them. (Cheers.) Mr. MOORE. in supporting the motion, denied that there was anything in the oath taken by R oman catholic members to prevent their legislating( for the temporalities of the church. The church of Leland was, it was true, a part of the church of England, but it was a part so diseased and rotten, as to stink in the nostrils of the whole civilised world. Could it be said then that in asking to excise the diseased part they were seeking to destroy the living body ? (Hear.) Not a vestige of title wall be shown for the presori applicatia of the Irish church temporalities. The Irish church was founded not to be the patrimony of a small seat, but for the benefit end happiness of the whole people. The object of the first protestant reformers in setting aside funds for the support of a protestant church was the religious instruction of whole p e ople—but how had that object been carried out? In the south and south west of Ireland there were many pa rishes from which large incomes ranked where there was neither church, glelse, nor resident elcaymen. In the diocese of Tuam he (Mr. Moore) paid tithes in eight parishes, in neither of which was there church, glebe, or resident ia. gymen—nor, as far as he knew, a protestant inhabitant—and where divine service according to the protestant religion had not been celebrated since the reformation. (Hear, hear.) He bad received letters in reference to other parishes, in which the protestant population amounted to 20 or 30 per sons, but where no provisi in was made for the religious wants, though large incomes were derived from those parishes by non-resident clergymen. Were these the ob jects which the protestant reformers sought when they founded the protestant established church in Ireland? All the arguments which he had heard in favour of the existing system were merely in exteneation—all acknowledged the evil; but it was said that it was not so great as had been alleged, the revenues of the church were not so large, nor ' were the duties so entirely a sinecure as was asserted. No one attempted to prove that the protestant established church in Ireland had fulfilled its mis sion. (Hear, hear.) The only purpose for which these revenues were taken from the country, appeared to be to provide for come twelve resident noblemen and some 2,000 educated gentlemen ; in short, these abuses were perpetuated to make provision for the younger sons of the aristocracy. He knew that the majority of hon. members came to the house bound to vote against their consciences, in olo diners to the bigotry out ef doors which they despised. They acknowledged, indeed, the enormity of the abuse, and yet they were unable to vote spinet it on account of the orinediem of the people. He thought this wait unworthy of them. They should resolve not to be ruled by prejudices and passions, befitting but seriouslto consider what was the course of conduct mint the honour of the legislature, and mat condtteive to the welfare of the people ; and they woul d rely upon it that by adopting the present motion they would lay the foundation of the social regeneration of Ire. land, and cement a lasting union between the two countries. (Hear, hear.) Sir G. GREY wished to make an announcement at the outset, with the view of removing an apprehension en tertained by the hon. member for Middlesex (Mr. Osborne), that he should not, on the part of the government, meet the avant motion by moving the priori ins question. There might be occasions when to move the previous question might be a very proper mode of proceeding ; but, looking et all the circumstance. under which this motion was brought forward, and the particular effect it might be likely to pro. duce on the object of the hon. and gallant mover, he was not prepared to go into a committee of the whole honer, and therefore he fe't justified in voting against the motion. (Hear, bear) The hon. member for Middlesex bad warned the government that they were not to congratu late th twelves en the present condition of Ireland, and he had intimated his opinion that that rendition was not one of unmingled sa'iafactinn. He (Sir G. Grey) agreed with him (Hear, bear.) The condition of Ireland was one which it was impossible to contemplate without deep win end regret ; but be was unable to see in the motion of the hon. and gallant gentleman, brought forward under present circumstances—(hear. heal—the slighted approximation to a remedy for those model evils which afflicted Ireland, and to which attention had been and ought to he directed. (Cheers.) The hon. member for Mayo (Mr. M •orel said that be sup ported the motion. though there was very litt l e in his roach relating to it, and he also said that he supported it because he thought it calculated to remove domestic disagreements and to lessen nolitieal discontent. Now he (Sir G. Grey) be lieved that there was nothing in the motion which could have any ether effect than that of earl log domestic and po litical disagreement, and which at the present moment ex- Wed to a moth less extent than it did at any former period. (Hear) Toe hon. member for Middles*: had occupied a considerable portion of time by quoting sentiments ex termed by different member' of the house and the govern. meat, arid he did Inn (Sir G. Grey) the honour to quote his opinions. He had erroneously stated that the lot opinions he (err G. Grey) had *'livered were in 1834, and he observed that. there had hecn art ominous 'Meet.* On the subject of the Irish church ever since, and that from the time a motion was made by the first lord of the treasury nothing had been uttered upon the mutter. The bon. gentleman also acid that it should net be his fault if he did not refresh the memory of the members of the govern meat; but it was to be regretted that in refreshing the me mories of otlurs, his own memory had failed, although he had been cotsulting the pages of Hansard. The hon. mem ber must have forgotten the debates in 1135 ties the motisn of the first lord of the treasury. I)is. mations then ensued on the subject of the Irish church, in the course of which he (Sir G. Grey) stated hit opinion egairtst the policy . and expediency of maintaining in Ireland a church exclusively endowed, that church being the church of the minority. (Cheers.) That cpieion he entertained still, and was there scything in the plm of the hon. member for Middlesex which affected the principle of iszclusivenets ? What was his remedy ? What did tee pro. pwe ? He proposed an humble imitation of what read beet done by a greater man than himself at any former period —Lord Stanley. His lordship, at a time when there were twenty bishops in Ireland, had reduced the number to ten, and the bon, member for Middlesex now proposed still further to reduce it to five. He regretted that the hon, member for Mayo had alluded to the past history of the church, and that he had not given credit to the protestant elegy for the exertions they had made during the re cent famine, irrespective of creed and plry, to alleviate the sufferings and to mitigate the woes of their sufferimer fellowecreetures. (" Hear," and cheers.) With regard to the Irish Society, he begged to say that it was not identified with the Irish church, It was a volute tary society, supported by voluntary c:Ttril•uti,no, and as such he scarcely expected to hear the hon. g .ittieman, who was an advocate for that principle, object to it. I 1,11,4 was to send forth men of a missionary spirit who could 'peak the Irish language, and by that means et 'lvey spiritual in struction to their fellow countrymen. If the he e. pestle man meant by alluding to it to charge him (Sir G. Grey) with anv sympathy for, or with givvg wistrtice to, those who took advantage of the existing distress to withhold re. lief except upon the condition of abjuring their faith—then did he utterly repudiate any such imputation. (Hear, hear.) As the absence of his noble friend *(Lord Ru•sell) bad been commented on, he begged to say that it was owing to domestic causes, but for which it had been the noble lord's full intention to be present. Mr. E. B. ROCHE said that the right hon. baronet while he had totally abandoned the church, bud not at all sue. ended in patching up whig inconsistency. The right hon. baronet bad, however, raised a question from which he (Mr. Roche) felt bound to dissent. The right hon. baronet ad mitted that the church establishment in Ireland was a great injutice, but he thought that that injustice could be done away with by planting another church esta blishment alongside the present. Now, instead of that being a countervailing advantage, it was °beton% that when an impoverished country complained ot the burden of • rich church establishment, the way to remedy tee grieve ante was not by giving her two instead ot one such establish meet. (Hear, bear) The right hon. gentle man had completely given up the Irish church in argument, thoegh not practically, and it was therefore needle es to argue against it ; and they had not yet had a single speech mom its able defenders on the opposite side of the house calling for a reply. He wished to know from them upon what ground was it that they would defend that church in Ireland? Was it upon the ground of religious truth? (Yes.) An hon. gentleman said et was. Then they were in that house re quired to assert religions truth by as act of parliament. b t hey u t g h to '4 the te ca tb t e ho c li h c urc re h lig o i f o L n o e w n e d r o c er a ed na a d t a bl eo tt t a r (Neer, hear.) They had Hiodooism in India; they bad the reveruer of support of the Roman catholic religion ; and they had the peep byterian church established in Scotland. Hiv then amid they say it was to maintain religious truth that they had a protestant church established in Irelanu ? (Hear, bar,) The whole system of aggravated outrage in Ireland could be traced to the church es a political establishment The wild justice of ge had shown itself against the tithe proctors, and when they virtually made the landl..rd the tithe proctor, he was but too often sacrificed in the same way. then, the Irish church was not to be maintained on religing nor political grounds, he knew not upon what other pond. But he knew that the great majeirity of the Irish peo. Is hod made up their minds that that large establishment should be, if not altogether abropted, very much mitigated, and that object he should use bra best exertions to attain. Mr. G. A. HAMILTON offered his acknowle dements to the right hon. baronet the Home Secretary fer meeting this motion by a direct negative, for he believed no policy would prove more fatal in Ireland than any exhibition ot weakness on the part of the government on this question. There bad been for some time a great absence ot anything like aerie monious feeling on the sueject of religion in Ireilend, and if the question were now to be raised they would have to contend with the great misfortune and calamity of a revival of religious and acrimonious discus ions. With reference to the abuses of the Irish church, he would ' observe that if that estabishment had heretofore failed to accomplish its objects, that failure was attribu• able to those abuses which themselves arose from the church haring heft used by successive governments as a political envine. (Hun hear.) He would maintain the established church in Ireland on the same grounds as he would maintain a church up where—for the rake of upholding and extending the pH*. ciples of religious truth ; and for this purpose he held that the Irish church was most efficient. The hon. member who had last 'Token was incons . stent in the charges he brought against that church ; he at once accused the clergy of inert ness, and of too great anxiety for proeelytizing. The re venues of the Irish church had tang been a subject of great exaggeration ; and no less so on this occasion, when its in come had been stated to amount to F-65,0001., the income of the clergy being 888,838/. He had taken great paint to obtain accurate information on this ;mint, which he would verify to any lion. member who might desire it. The first complaint usually brought against any church mu the existence of pluralities, and many might auppoee that they existed to a great extent in the Irish church. In 183 i, the number was 81 ; while in 1843, 34 had Yr en abo lished. The process of abolition had since gone on, and no faculty had been granted for • plurality since 1828. Hence the pluralities were rapidly in course of extinction. The next matter of complaint was sinecures. Under the Church Temporalities Act and the Act 4 and 6 Wm. IV., provision was made for their abolition, and 60 had been abolished sines 1834. He admitted that at ens time unions of pas rishes existed to a great extent. Their origin was the poyerishosent of the clergy, arising out of the tithe ' adjustment. By the acts just referred to, the Lord Lieutenant had power to dissolve such unions, and even to divide parishes whose value exceeded 8001. Since 1833, 63 unions had been dissolved in this way ; but it was not possible to dissolve the whole, for in some eases they were absolutely necessary, owing to the smallness of the income of certain parishes, or to other etr cuinstanees, where, as in Cork, a distillery occupied Gs whole of one parish—(laughter)—and this was necassrffy united with other parishes. In Wexford, one parish tem tained only 40 yards equare, another 200; such parishes were necessarily grouped into naive*. The next point wee the non-residence of the clergy. Br returns from four dioceses, he found that in Armagh , in 1819, 15 were nonres ident out of 82 cleraymen ; while in 1849, only 5 out of 102 were noes resident. In the other three dioceses the numbers were as follow: No. of clergy. Nem.teddest 1819 1849 .. . 107 leis .. ..•.«. ..• 147 rent SS Cashel and Waterford no 1619 Could he have obtained returns from the other diocess, be had nos doubt the same result would have been shown. (Hear, hear.) As to the alleged excessive wealth of the church, he would observe that the church property mightbs divided into that held by the parochial clergy, and that of the dignitaries and bishops. The evidence given Worse committee of last session showed that the former amounted to 453,0941.—the latter to 369,6601. The amount of rats struck in Ireland last year was 2s. 94. in the pound, which deducted from the above sum of 453,0941, reduced the net income of the beneficed clergy to 306,4161. A further deduc tion for payments to curates reduced this sum to 249.2084 or an average of 1721. 16s. 2d. for each beneficed clergyana Taking the whole amount et the church property, and difd ing it by the whole number o f cler gy men, it yielded en an rage of only 1411. 101.7 d. for each. Estimating the numbs of Protestants as given in the last census, there war s case gregation of 590 for each of those clergymen. But it wts said, though the avenge income was small, great dispuitis existed. In the 20 largest benefices in Ireland, the net income was 14,1601., or an average of 7081. for each livied Of thess, the largest (Templemore) wee a union of *ma 10 tones, where the VON income wee 3,3221., and the nett is come little more than 1,6001., nine curates being emp Of another benefice in Armagh, the gross income 11 6 was returned at 2,2681. the parish contained upward! 3,500 members of the es tablished church ; and the deduction' reduced the income to 6721. The living of Armagh ves union of 9 parishes, containing 7,766 inhabitants: atm" . 9 churches and 11 curates ; the gross income was 2,1871., bet the nett income mu only a little over 6001. It war saiditse in many livings there were small congregslimb or none at all. This wu certainly an anon* which it was desirable to avoid. This was en eel from which England war not altogether exempt. It el l an evil incident to the parochial system. There well 43 bens flees in Ireland in which there was no congregation be longing to the established church in 1834. Of these, 2014 alread Ispeed to th Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and 21 ▪ exi y uted. But some of these which Ind no congredgfr al in 1831 had congregations now, as Ardfest. But ruppeel 'hat it was desirable to abolish these benefices. whet " 1 " . it amount to ? Only to 1,2351. Supposing, even, that adf abolished 100 benefices with the smallest cone. gatione, would only have a sum of 9,4490. to devote to other P" poses. (Hear, hear.) Next, with regard to the digaitail of the established church in Ireland, comprehending Pe" archdeacons, and prebendaries, if they were to sus those not baying the cure of souls, what would OS the result ? Of the deans 8 only out of 139 had re r t deuces assigned to them. Of the prebendaries, out of 1 . which w the number in Ireland, not one was a residestts tight of his prebend ; and 105 out of 108 OCTET had asy infest at all. The net value of their incomes was only 21,00. year. Under the Church Temporalities Act 4,0001 ayes: wee regarded as a reasonable income for a bishop and, Me: rider Met that he war to hold the state and rank of a nob:. man, and en maintain a certain degree of homy, be . d not thi• k 4,0001. a year was too large an iscome for Ina The judges of the country, who were not euhject to CO eiPen.eO, received 3,5001. a year. The actual net income 1 . ! the bishops of Ireland, not including the archbishoPen n"w 40,5511. The income of the two archbisluels,M"' 15,9001. a year. Now, with regard to the er . M, cies of the Irish church, it had been proved , "S, dens. the committee on ministers' money, that altbelri there were 4,050 benefices in Ireland, there were 011 ° ,4 glehe houses, and that there were 99 tempsratv Ss": worship. It was also proved that there were 51 ereuT i cases of the necessi, of building churches —that 240 ap sUo t cation. for enlarging churches had ben postponed , SI meath Osiory and Ferns 45 SS IS s 10! 111 2 • 2m. S t 4 1 11.6 7• 6 a SI s 7 d am .. 1 i 1 2 51 Els. r 2 p.. 1". !! Ili ii as 11 am. a 2 1 I 811 Pa• V. Se M. F. SS S 19 17 dla. 19 17 t9s. IP IP $ 7 di s. dir 1 1 pm 49 $ _4 419. 416. 14 14 dlik I I dia. 1 1 4114. 16. 13 dia. It 3 236 02 64 pur 40 41 pm. II 31 pa. 43 44 M 41 8 I as. 4e 1 aia os 100 • 64 4 10 PS 24 par pm. if 17 aSs. 10 • dia. 41 7 dia 22 4w a a 4 i •f`ki SO • 1616 NS 0 ID SI IS di& 34 Sr N 10 11 1114 31 21i 131 1113 .__ 4 1.6 I. I I pi. 13 14 Ma 19 11 . Ms. -,-. it K ,_ c 1 irs. N t . as. N 4 4 s lii 1111 t !! if ii db. &a H II le 14 dia. $ db. IS et - 111 di. .0 II 11 dia. 19 20 s u bi 3 34 II 4 ' par 4$ 4 dia. 19 19 11 1i Pe -23 2 dia. 4 die. 1 2 pai. 1457. pi: 1 Fir 7 6 515. 154 15 l !24 Mo. U U 11 14 ;,4 ;iris. - 4 I P 24 22 db.& 4 $ ed. 3 1 3 2 3 1 Ps• Ift din. 4 al Ilk 30 11 $I di. p."&i: Ph tut 1 NI el N £6l Si 14 In ez tat I:1 it 133 arp ger of Church