The Express. — London, England, 1849-03-14 00:00:00

Meek 140 M. Mee beepkt hewer& a Peke he the &Mama der* mess is Lighted amildeg Wake ; which be within, spe Lend Allhim pli eabealt to the beam a eaddiategy mosenge. On -peop is KM of Aped, the loam es is melee Of Alp Ohseeillor el the le =Brett), itself lath a smattole, the besellerward a foodedem," UM, oder a time >»w fegnimitefebeeiranneht Waked asilltalts .hell mem sal deMosise; KO is les Ideveskka lielee 4 l be ampw=s i e b era m ar the pomade ea , bag One • a p e OM M be stylist le the Melee al poebbamobes gel peeed4l ebtiodh look mum° " pediestrat detenaise. —Kr. mums moved at aa amesimedt, °TIDOS appears to she mennallage issomdkut te Mita kle geteltemaKm .... ,==vakei gbr` a'aigift l b* pit* revere VIM dee eililless of the semb ▪ ahipb, me It aballeerse dee the feeds sew to that. hm& Me at whitest, le inset Mb and tilalir=he ilesegret. The gennehlee Melded : Pee de asthm a - TM ; he the eimeedestele 140; si*jority,llB. Kr. With. moved that the chairmen report pc- gyros; whisk we segadved by BM spirt 138. The en ershitioa winageesii is,and tbo loseo gefemed. • bill was dierty dar n wheed by Lord AVlboip, lapeeneete tithe sos4ades." brae &Whim efebelaiseekswitembepre eide er Se Power, rep de et perbb &ladies PA Mark eel he thle three pellsememee dares serolee *seam" It Per these pewee by eleembs MOM am the te e pail te the eatearee ballMsg skurcies, der whine eindehimelles eel direethe the woes to be tippled. le ..miss .see the mesh =Tor is parkemosee if Melee melee, aid the Wei der.' of worship, were tow defrazd ea lz funds procured the !Wing of pews, ander the elks auras ma chapel warden.. The obligate to this bill was ebvbse. Instead of removing to original, oneatial in justice of the principle of choral rates, especially es applied te dissenter", it provided for the objects of that obnoxious Meat out of a public fend the amount charged upon whisk is, this sew and =lai purple meet neces sarily be emit up eel replesel Insation of the ciaatry. Thus, the pried* et all passes, dis senters or durabsen, non-steadeste sa ess at the churches Perim! at the public rim" Ake eaateibste to the purpose of church rate, was by this metseellreoll sad aged urn. It was' fresh and inesilify seentegyeesegeleina Glebe iciest principle which wall the geolemos ef the plow once WWI*, too, dissenters mad mans would tams, in effect, still be eentributlog to • skunk rate, they were at the same time deprived of the ra ciest privilege which had hitherto been candied by parishes, of voila( or of r i lfe s id i 2 the rat. in vestry. Arising, ao doubt, sad am was from the 'objections of the diseentem. the bill was not per fevered la, and the grievance w.e left uaredressed. Its aim sequence of this, lead resistance to grantimg rates is vestry become very eneral, sad produced slush ill.feebag and 'memos litigation in various parts of the ocruntry. In Marsh, 1835, Sir R. Peel proposed, as one ef rho nee sum irchided in the programme of the braided'. po licy of his administration, to int:edam a ball frit the &boll• don of the church rates, but p ro vidin g for the objects of theta out of the ConsolVatod F Asy such me &- sore could never have euemoded ea ajnat or satisfactory set tlement of the question, al it way open to the same objec tions that had premiTe 1 &mint the bill of Lard Altltorp. On the 3rd March, 1837, the following resolution was moved, in a c minium of the who!. house, by the Chancellor of the E'en quer (Mr. 8. Rice), " That it is the opinion of this committee that for the r pair and maintenance of paroehial churches and chapels in England and Wales, and the due et lebration of Dime wonhip therein, a permanent and ado quate widths be made out of an -..eased value even to church lands, de." The debate was reamed as the 11.11, 14th and 15th, and the minion wee car ried by 273 against 2.50, (with 39 pairs.) Oa Tues day, Kay 23. Zed J. Russell moved the order of the day for taking into further consideration the reeds*. relating to church rates; when Mr. A. 'aimless ineved, se an amendment, " That it is the epleasa el this boom t hus funds nity be tl• rived from ea leposeed siseeparat of church lands, end that three hob Medd be apphed M re. lig of a inertial n wi bin the establided elmese where the same may be found de meat, is propellea to the seeds, popule'i n." The delude woo rimmed le the salt day. Mr. Johnron withdrew hie amentemoll; nevi, en the media "that the resolution be agreed to," the bongo Melia Tbe numbers wen: stet (for the resalution) 287 ; SU— mei wity for minister, 6. On Tueeday, Jane 13th, J. BumU stated, that although, considering the mutation and prejudice which had been .meld the plan. it was surnbing that any sooledqr as all had lima obtained f m the semiotics, put se that majority we. so small, the covenantal did set malice th t they would be justified la proceeding with a hued d ea the molation that 'anion ; sad he aesdnied by be the appoinuamt of a select essoadiles to is 2*i:d moving " ate the made of granting Sad reaming haws of the sad other ropey of tie Mee deans, and chap ter. sad Ober eeseel babe et Bashed sad Wake, sod fun the probable by sweat of any ineesseed e value which sight be obisimed an intrenedrowspeem, with a dee masidesatlon ef the Lateral ef the Buislikbed Church, and OK, preint hems emit repair " The demise of the teems is 1837 prevented the - sebstiment of the select oesinittee s arch lease Is del session. But in May, 1838. the seemaittee wee appeinted ; and the evidence taken before theta was oedema M be pellet* Avast 7th if that year. 13 ring te the dilkeranes of ratans in the ocemaitteo, end the preposiemme of door* laleames, so report we awned tram • and no stops were taken I. nit annexe of the etridencels liinient, although the chereh autbovit;eg having asasti the immovable value of church loses, immediately Wok meawares te tare the re sults of the laquiry to the advantage of the bides. Os the 11th February, 1840, Mr. T. 8. Demeembe wed ter -saw to bring in aMU to relieve dimity. from the ramose a dui k rates; which was opposed by seisisten, and the moths wee negatived by 117 against GI; majority, M. Oa the 9th July, 1840, Mr. Re.thope named for leave to befog is a bill to exempt &meatus from liability to church rem. But the debate was cut short by the Speaker's interrakies, ea the ground that to notion was suratantially the SINN ee that bromide forward by the hos. amber tor Fleakery ea Feb. 12, and negatived. The objection was deemed hid. Os May 25, 1841, Mr. Berahope moved for leave te brim is a bid to ab disk church ram, sad maks other pr ea for the menu/num of chinches and elopes in Begkedeat Wales ; which was timed to, after a loss wad inismaing debate. without a division. Th. bill wee Framed sad Meng* in by Mr. Eanhop • and Wilma" ; mid being nod sled doe, was ordered to be printed June Bth, 1841. Parliament be ing dissolved on the 23d, the bill, of course, fall to the graced. No renewed attempt was made te Meg in a bill ; but, in Aeon, 1842, Sir Jebs Soh hope moved for returns, thawing be what parishes church Mira were heed, and in whet ease they were refined. This notice hod is■ reluctantly acceded to; bat the returns were se inamellest sad confused, that they were of nu practical or ay. Ude um Us two or three whet wet messiens, the earths hod bees amoted ; boa at so time had tiny ntiiineetay eerier at been Nee to le wen desirous of giving the hem some Me of ifs opiolemi whisk had been entertained by pahtle re ea thin use' imipereat subject. The riditt ImmeeraMe hems& the meant Cheated* et the Imbegew bed Z o la w r i z, , 1841, Tr* waft woe s era ate la dr of la budgets. mime memo he obi* the hmethentop de item por tico cd the kilo der mat ettett le named. Sir J. Lniigtao had soh : Mkt memeemes dam Odm Mob el lal let Pat, a pmad ma se membea vireo pa bow the la ths Male, ami rria ea me dam ea Om prey ea the 0841•1 whetOr ftliree OMB; 11111 bear earbli mei th e e sem le ehe ekkom a 1 the make likkg=idelr pirept=2o - 2 wear eel es meembelkw. p Led Abbey osseMered: UM Mem me pot Menne la mkt ',M a lebo= tho =dheemwe et tikes awl ehmeh room maw sear lbe drain tidal% me at flu al re dberema, she we emmthed le gor ie *:tillre Imre easpeise tepee te* P er mmidenties et lOW WWI Oa did adtmagerte ads temea, Is hie Se kid s Mitts eemplek et IL tlaeeo Loki Nasky brem b K made to malt matentace of an sibehilshol dm* tea endead ma OF mad Is a soar the beet ad ollembe to Wm both me r=d g m: ememmt eal arm ef eollerma me ready to OM time ems as they mewl, Need M dlesestere a swims mad rothemell mwek Theethen ode woe* Id& hem. baremet the hoed sifts late seremera, "rho thomphe is 1016 : Oct Wreathe dime ems Oki net yield te ow dm is Mar. Oat 11 ma at mob at say gemtlee. Imemluet ia as ta m meld basysgaz Be alma neenglit emildemeams of the Maw et lbe dada a dr alasilma et a he leeta Lbra p =rammlket setwillwoha ellidlowee ba teas kw. mode het to maw Me lee ohm* wise to be wok the thew sfdlswmia a pie*mtplloge arttt= al wiry aim poiNdiel m tyre Sr eatelme ti It ewli beady be believed that the 'abject had been for gotten by govesemeab almost ever dam. Either the right kola bents.' had then spoken rather hostily, or there had bees aspedemble moshr ef duty sines the time. Re sow SIM MI the who bed i cr i kel Where at the present heti mil to whole the rev bed a right to look obilet. The sells lord at the kiwi a the govenesent PM, la Fob. 1618: OM*. oweeket dim* nem wee ea oeweemory mad vexatious coke if solostaft, NA thee kw led W aids the edema whisk_ dem mmetememighthe Ober dleelaikeim %Mammy soak* le a limilt le he There wee mow a shelves ippeetaaity open es the ugh lord for .soling a gunnies' yid* wee as Wearies eo these. tablished thumb as offentivo le the dissenters. La July, 1839, timbers bed mese hide reseheies— Test Ma Thingood, a mamba dloweest. _Ms bass Nand la bet Marrs may pal of Om lbe left of kora hut. setheteg M meow le the em kkekl mom of the Mop of Lobo he the orkuommet MI& K. Waft imeme et ehmok nie ommed moo Mk kr Ike perk et Mended; enlk lithe "kiwi et helmet" It VII be the 444 el the legshigm at the mallet pinkie prise el tee air woks et reihnow, is name wee aleastens la he adages Woo Ike mere ma ker s MIK WI r amillit the milinlinie Of Ms Aimee merisailt satiserebethe=miyeerrome dem modes Mr e dent the rights are of the emilibelebwa. H. sent mai toe more dilikalt part et the efklest, the state of tee law as related to skunk rates. The law V' to be extremely intricate. As he as he could gather the makable, they bald SIMI the priideren ef say place were es auk Woad te moppet Me Mardi es to sup port the highways. Bat then were desely mot the tome O tor 'shrift the law ht the it case which the o▪ ther. Om threes method of erredieg it, sad wee mew reeved lie la may =tear, wee that of electing th arehwerdess who were mot to auks a church rate. It few Maim es the Bedairee sat ether sons, in groat et the smeeemb et re el Ihe law, the ha sell be would Wasik the bean with soma es the saltiest et the abuse' which lead arisen of late yeses is sonamita with this tax. It might sot be eperully kaows= eled elieve church Mee were under 10L, o by ganger, room Oa M ama„ the of Jamie Bidwell, • parishioner of 84. 4.41 =. bridge. There was due from him, on amount eider& rater, the ass et dance shillings ; eniogne s.s 9 gl l9 r_____.f 9 . P 4 7- gums of time wow, tuba 141. oasts, Wel wave apes him ;Ind the ebazdtwordass, waist making any attempt to las the menet el the Me "sessass under a wo o tot Merses basso the ailisieetom upliestles, re fudpayoss* peseta him kr Sesames law miskemeseur fit au coke of etegistrees Tke elsektesedessos there greesed to ONIVOOD. d i m some one 111 met weubt tbsitr skSeed is pay` Ike demerad, la oder to asee him fest Os id to a erbdsal presseados. Tao SUS WY ors Mr. Hares Puke, at Se sobs legal 1845, sad tbs &kolas* was menkleir r i mless legal (reads el abgedies asked the isclidereeel Mr. Berea Parke dekestra d d=est. At the esomar tie is 1847, ter tie Snug bona by Mr Judee sdi r atim ie toe east that, seder the rims sumer es shove daletled, the istjaimest wee mistakable; sod, after seking dander* It be could pig the mots of Collides i Ow, II so, he said be ealy NHS 11111 IS ester eceguicesses to awes lo seeds estesse et the amble afaitsa i r e t apes the deisdant dads. that be " had set a to bless limesif wish ," the bused judge seassed him to mestbt isildessest ; bd.= oodles ties, be sae plowed to be sesdaird SO the bet dos stir dessereald Ok G. Grey, a the este bobs bees streeey npriesited le Ids arse very such sbeitesed the term of imprisonment, sad ultimately, before the expiration et eves that series, seed the prima doors by the exercise of the steredel prairegative et the ores. Meek 'Sisals wee netted b the esentry by this petty, thrash maliguast, sae of penecudea. A similar cask pubs. min mere able, occurred shortly afterwards. Hr. J. Simonds, et Mare ley, Backs, a respectable tradesmen sle 12/ adissestiag Waists wet assessed to the rate in resist of kb emotion of a cottage sad eanien, at the sass of frd. He objected, on principle, to pay the rate. Au erase et magistuttre fir payment wu made and *rued apes his; ead, for not complying with this, he was proseented Mob* fir a stiederseaseer. By the 83rd Gas. Itll., e. 114, .there was a Sepia remedy for the by distraint of rata due under the astous i t= Th's resod , bz e i nes wever, the churchwarden abstained beta gaming, than sold be no doubt of the raffelesay II the goods el • ris to meet every dusaad is impost et the rate. He wee tried at the Aylesbury quarter emirs, ee the nth isa., 1848 ; sad, though diasr.eerl 4 :l= —whisk they retired to decide upon—were era es the magistrates, as several poises of legal mimed by motel. yet, a majority eansidered that the swat was maiateinable, notwithstaading the voluntary ab stiessta by the skarchwardece from the nod, smaribad by Vealthee. Ile was Semi oak sad esaganesti te ewe week's impelommat Mr: hike Patties bad masseed poor 1!t wee ak state/ thlarceration for the same aeon ! The kik sash boned member then read a list of eases where MOSS bed bow made cn the property of Frisk at Resift she each amouss es church rate—the as alined mthei(eif to IL le. 11d., and the vales of the pro wtg seised to 10t 18s. Bd. In answer to all this, it might be said that dimenters had h eig ht or takes their property oddest to aura rata; bat Sy not truster the tusks to ems elks sass% Swab, the guesses might be s owed, medidak dish be treated. He th e t be asked— Why stir the question at this time, whoa nion wee tole. 'ably quiet ? Such wee the most proper t for legislat ing on the subject ; for sibs could be more naconstitu dual than to give up t mis to agitation, and to nothing else. It was such bitter that that hose should lead They pub lic opinion than be led, or rather driven, by it. ought to watch the isdiestioas of publie opinion, which were now tolerably evident ; sad they should then pro ceed to set. It Right be said there were no cos plaints. Why was this ? Because the tee wee generally evaded in large towns; wen only in small agri cultural diddles that it was serious' y felt. In 1837 no less than 1,328 podgier, dined by 874,719 individuals, bed bon pmesteill Wire the grievance; and he had so doubt that the Most= tit as strongly on the subiest sew, though the pediess were meekly leas numeress. It was difficult to foss as kiosk slim amount of this tax, wish suite years sips waraliteat half a million, for the rotaries fur sighed oa the meths of Sir J. Beathope gave no ides el the real state et Ilia sea, and only seed to throw dui is the eyes et the polio. Where a tax created man f disk pats had eS=et t to b. sad acted a ale . That refid°ll4lll: mescal thew He was cite certain that nothing but the abelliss of church rates la their per sent foes would be setletaitsp ; it was competeet to say honouree.). .amber le poems any substitute he them/LS peeper. In the perish et • Islington, with its large popistise—betweas 26,030 mid 3—so suavely was the steessity of avoid ing unpleasent Whim ad fe eli ng mealy the lilt, that a clues true istradased hits a basal et 2 Wit. IV. e. by whisk the pewlislimi to the wok were assmesd Mr the sanest j sot by this esestasest the poem et the pada bed pressrek. Why should sot that maim, whisk had worked so well, be extended, at least ie peddless mLuly situated ? He felt that he ought ad to waists wlthast giving the boom an Mee at what diessine ad as their own sburchm. The Othpfirgetisisi Migeeier br December, 1835, on wi dths* ithlsh mull sea be Istrigset. shied the numbeis of &NOW essgreptiess hang indspeadents, tip ma d , reebytulans, metheellek Roma whiles, and home ma slavery otatiess)) at 11 4. Now, than ware then 11,826 eolesepai damiker. ea elabor'S adeslation the sung. MOMS 414111.111Sain was shown to be 1201. Their inseam wily is. hem 701. to 60W., and eves upwards. The sensate as 92.3,5407. The eat et ad repristag dispels wee shown to be at least Thom Midst Neitisgsmisisa wore to mks HOAK I medsmiss, 0%0001. Add to this &bent halt the mouth sp theeidssielly raid % ro te re gat seaktios kr the of the • 1111,9261. ; the total would be 1,11r706. 8e Ihme if the denominations, the flowing err dwlmi was eaggilied—Wedayms:—Members ha Ilmet Dais. 118,8111 lotto is Weed, 13,148; /reign detiess, 97,451 ; teed, 409,484; minibus, is In ked ditto, 183 ; MS; total, 1,711. Mokpo la al. most all parts of the Seidl amiler organkatiesy= diatricts, Seals end teem of building, sad other isaidestal pirpmes. ledeossieap lan ihr U land —Muslims (suer) 1,188; fn Laade. ekes 138; collage% 17 Laths& (patio) la. Deride —Nuabsr of chemise is the UMW Kingdom, 1,911 ; Hot of mossimisis 18481 i n l Ilesdepesbeek 11,648; chil dren, 92,034; mitilese,e; Bible Tegmbesa Society, 1 ; 8; ether assialke,ll. The nest was that the triissaM beim whist ass hewware the megistraies at petty assiths the w aeZiaillml *seri& Them magistrate were often clergy yes at die Chunk of Ingland, and it was extremely lama think, Ike the reeks dientore dwelt fall under the aspires, et Ihe imam eta diferasteset. He seed not disks the midi of the auks. The effiketions whisikshlsyciket thus ware hums se d Them was sense exteelhffith Wet the rimennest woa bias la bill to plass them es Mims bobs ; but he regretted that Sere was so ausessassisst ef mit a mempare. Re bad now *mown dews the salgsak sad le hspsel it would meet with support him both idlest the has. It was most kebab!' that the "meths should be thislasterily settled. All, he =Weed ill that. He trusted, therefore, that gentlest, would ems forward to mi dgets the evils which he had detailed to the hoes mad with that view he begged to move " that it il i tte s =ll of this beim that Osseo' swam should be a ldiss he lb' eighths diem* rim" (floss.) The guides bating bra rut, Mr. P. WOOD said he had set hard very distinctly the whole of what had fallen front the bs. genderan, bit the sheet which la Whoever femread was Ma that must 1 late NM MAN ditemetior la that benee. (lieu.) Hi wee set Inn that he could emir in the view which he undembeed lem taken by the hoe,. gentlest's competing the gensehathree etimplee entertained by dimentene en this sub ject. It would mat be fair to measure shah denedeness by IN. He thereon gave them full credit for the marks whisk theystmWaed ;• but if he received a almegail with the malatrunos of a Wesleyan, aß= ffiemett Catholie Chapel, he would not consider it a Asia. dm of mnecileme to condone that carport, although he would sever willingly emieffiate out of lie own teals. (Hear.) He admitted, however, that they eked i accuses sere the views of other by these dory anaseesined theemelms. Although the law Merged the church rate saquellenably ea every property in every parish, yet from the eircum ✓ams of persons meeting together to uspees end suer the rate, a arias had grown up that there was a plenary eat la tasking If, rate. But that was not the sem. Tito law war this , If, whoa poems were met together, they made no rate, them eummetiosably they having fried to do that for which they met, the majority, if they voted for no rate at all, were held to have thrown away their votes and the votes of the miaority prevailed. But if they were managed with more dexterity 4 , purse who understood the law, then, by making a small but *naive rate they secured them selves, and they were no longer bound by the crinkle of the minority. All this generated maples in the naiads of many that they were making a rate when they were merely assess. big it. But it wee plating the church in an unseemly position, es being obliged to take a minimum rate, where the dissenters were numerous, for repairing the church. Unica, therefore, there was SOWN conclusive evidence of surveyors or by the monition of the archdeacon as to the precis; amount required an illusive rate was made, and the church was kept in the least becoming coudidon— in each a condition In far as a g. nreman would net wish to its his outhouses. (Hear.) That being the ace, and as it was not to be expected that the dissenters, where they preponderated, would carefully levy a rate for toe purpose of putting Wes bloke in effective and complete repair, he had thought for a long time that it was nmemary to take some niessures with a view to a more satisfactory arrangement. He could not agree with the hon. getatiestan that they ought to abolish church rates altogether. (Um.) If the rate, were to be abolished, from what source war the money for the repairs of churches to comet The only other source was church funds. But there were plenty of other objects to whisk seek toads might be applied. (Heir, Iwo It was tire that mem) might be raised by crew atMrHars He put the views he entertained I the Mope of is amendment to the modem of the gentleman. The uneadreat he meant to g:ze would he, to omit from the readmit* the offer the abolition of church rates " and to Wart is gcn Okla the following words : "tor discharging pa erne ffiematffig from the church as by law established from anstribeling to church rates, and from taking any part in the levying, amessing, or admiaistering et the sune.' He would propose that persons should register themselves as dimentere and as such It would not be competent for them to to chu rchwardens or to vote on any subject muneoted with church rating. If tin= se views were curie t out in the shape of a ball ate provision might be that dissenters should not occupy pews in churches. Mr. HEADLAM seconded the amendment. dir. RICE heard with goes satisfaction the speech and proposal of the hon. aid learned member for Oxford, because it relieved him from a great difficulty as to the vote which he should give on this occasion. He was not prepared to do away with church-rats ahogi tiler and yet he felt the difficulties connected with the subjec t. THE En 1046 1 wERNEsnAT two ...sad - et gesibillevedllia lon Aiwa I . 0110' •491 7. 11 b . 0 01011 "1 11 4 41 . 6 h 8 daipilrY ,„ , Ze , elAowas. 4, p•tia g ogler It,— Xr. /ALIA Em kle UMW ili sereste ta for ' en; as it was, as the sr e p th psoliks tbs that k e trait a lr tip • specific paved, la WM oat shoe sate el stelatekiep relights eat zoo & lhat whisk saw eakeed. BM dr hes. sad hissed sass-sr kir Orbell prepand as eissadasst el the idoliest bar Wide Millabliks so to W C het ilm a sel lsisded. (Hoar, boar.) Om oblation to it MO that it tread he • madam SI Oink 1t stidht be km that weal/ ass bums dissesesto kr the mph ,p 1 ovsmq the plyaest et the rata, but whim the rade was • tag In she had se pens. would puma* him that the pre. el seek had would sot avail tiesmehh of this isaaisast te get rid et the rate to whim It they win sew liable. (Hear.) The hes. ad iseraed gesskrasa sold that she dkesaluts hal se teat riskt to saphda bosom sack the had sirbjest to the sae, but U his prepsoliks was willed • great arheatige would be gives to Ike dinessters. He maid traprz a. the use et a skereboses ad di sa ster *Asp liwilool. whisk bat kr the rats wow* b. want The lead was sow many liable, but let the prepwitilla et the Ms. gss. them be serried oat sad it aided to tho yoke er she laid of tk• diessater. (Hew, less) Whig be maid pre pen would be the eakembisussat ofeeekeiamisal Ises.belds, whisk would phi • iksid irssdistely available kr tke re- pair aid +miasma* d relipiout edition, and would relieve all trim esatribstise is the support of any but their wit elheshes. ilk G. OUT biped Ms beam would not be led into a dissmain ea the very idle end intricate question introduced =pea. Mend, sentsly, whether more mold be amide of property eeniseently with a due regard for the rights of lemma. It would be time enough to 'molder whetkes the charge Ise the emir glebe alias of the church should be borne by • hod tette meted by the better anaemia of shank prepay when • Medea promnition was made on that maigest. Now he email net sonsent to the ab. strait remiales beige the bow" that church-rates sight to beabolished. Seed mitumisentend that ashen. friend aid in view amp distinct mode et esigilieg the deficiency which, . would be nes created ; end le mad even say that mei piss anent* mama Si the hones had been minted to by these who Angel that they bad emesissoises simplest@ the Firmest greenish raw. As rewind the emenlement.heigatte smaserred with Ms bes. and banseil Mead the mamba for Os tend, that ft me meet desirable Si pet an lei le the made /as some whbh elMa marred ie pspialens= l ... ibut looking at the °places expressed by men et la that house, and at the Mem el every alma bee-e-iii made to vide remedy for tit existing evils, he was not surprised that his hem. end issued friend the mem ber for Oxford, with ell Ni talent and inanity, had not been able to bring derward a better pia than that proposed by the hon. amber for Finsbury, eight or pine years ago, when that hon. amber introduced • bill to exempt dimmers from the payment of dm* rates. The proposal made at the period to which be referred MY, that a line of demarcation should be drawn between churc hmen and &sentare, that churchmen should be still liable to the payment of church fates, and that dissenters, bang ex empted from such liability, should be deprived of the power of taking pert in vestry aiming. at which they were im posed. He thought that plan would have been attended with evil emequenees. He did not say that percent would profess themselves dissenters in order to exonerate them selves from liability ; but, ill that pert of the country for ex ample, with which he (81r G. Grey) was beat sequaimed—the north if Begland—Presbyterians andmemben of the Church of Begiend were intanniegh d, occupying adjoining farms, arid living in perfect amity, and the former in may cases at toadied the Established Church ; and he thralls it desirable that sea ma* skald be aluminised, er then th at poshambes amid he aimed to shaft' Christian fellow ship with the members tithe Chun et Reiland, through the abater to be gained by the assertion of their eon scientism, wenvieticies. Bend a, though the tenant might have the benefit ofmeseeptien fur • time, yet, when the leans fell in, the hadierd weefl be the gainer. Withoat going into the saguaros, be repotted that his hon. and learned Mend had est been able to sagest any other mode of wear. He adaftbril as dillisulties of the ease, bat he coneorred in the themvatime that the imam should be brought forward in the shop of a mom Mime to brag In a bin, sad at by mesas of a resolution a resolution being, whatever coarse might ultimately be Naiad, • mist eliectioaable made of (Hear, bar.) He weld deb further reiterate the whin heedb entrained en fernier occasions, and which had ben se kommatly ranted is that house, that it was meat deeirable t@ avoids upseitien of the evils which bed so frequently &deem (Var.) Them evils were, he thought, el leas falsest esserresse new thee they were formerly, public opinion having rather mitered ea the sub ject ; at the sam time, if any means could be devised for tubing funds for the repair of the fabrics et the church which would not leave them dependent on voluntary mart. bathes be should be meet hippy to give his amittance in the application of such a remedy. But certainly, looking at all tla proposals which had been nude, and consideeng the manner in which they had been received, be had no very siwegane hope of being able to devise a remedy on behalf of the governmeet. (Hear, hear.) . . CoL THOMPSON said he bad received instructions, which be felt bound to obey and be should support the mo tion of the hoe. member for Tavistock. Mr. HUME said that when it was formerly proposed that the burden of church rates should be transferred to the con solidated fund, he stresply objected to that proposeL At the same time, he had always tho ugh t it desirable that um, remedy should be adopted. He admitted that the laud was charged with the paymeat of church rates ; but, considering the Week which had been produced in a great many pa rishes, he thought sound policy required that such unplea sant proceedings should be stopped. He should support the amendment to the belief that it presented the beat moans of getting out of the diMeulty. Lord D. C. STUART said his views on this question ac corded in a great degree with those expressed by the boo. and learned member far Oxford. Though extremely anxious that &meatus should be relieved from the burden of church rs*se, he thoneht parliament would hardly be justified in abolishing this pranks for the maintenance of the t briar of the church without providing any substitute whatever. (Hear, hear.) He would recommend the honourable and learned member for Oxford to withdraw his amendment, and after that had been done, he would feel great pleasure is voting for a resolution declaring that church rates should be abolished, and some substitute for them provided. Mr. C. W. MARTIN cited the ems of Newport, where the members of the established church, rather than see the church of their perish fall about their ean, bad raised a vo luntary subscription for its restoration. Unless this principle were carried out elsewhere same substitute fez church rates must be found. Sir W. CLAY protested against the continuance of a t..x wbieh created an amount of hostility to the church which more than manterbalancsd the importance of the amount of the rates raised. Mr. GOULBURN said it would be difficult for the hon. gentleman to show that the wealth of the church, however it might be divided, was more than sufficient to supply the general need of religious instruction. Yet it was proposed to divert the means of the church from the purposes to which they had been destined, in order to relieve a certain class of landed proprietors from en obligation to which, as the hon. member for Montrose admitted, the land had been . subjeeted from the earliest times. Why was the land to be relieved from that charge say more than frets other local burdens ? He was not, Indeed. indisposed to consider whether any means Gould be devised of plating church-rates on a footing which would be acceptable to all classes of the community; but, while he had no desire to press hardly on particular classes, he thought it would be stoat unwise for the house to sanction either of the resolutions which bad been proposed. An hon. member hat proposed a resolution calling upon the house to affirm distinctly that they would abolish church rates. It was true that hon. members who had followed him bad stated that they meant that a substitute should be provided ; but it the resolution itself were pissed on the journals of the house, it would be appealed to as the letter W the bond— (hear. bawl—cod when the question of a substitute came to be mouldered, whatever might be the difficulty of finding ow, they would be told that the doom of Muesli rates bad been sealed. (Hear hear.) The hon. and leaned member for Oxfo rd prop osed to exempt dissen ters only from the burden. being open to the ob jection urged by , the right hon. gentleman opposite, that proposal required by the admission of the hon. and learned stembw himself, 'to be woompaaied by guards and precau tions which wall net be provided in a simple resolution. (Hear, hear.) It was impossible to worms any opinion on such a maim without first seebg the necessary Lookieti at what had paned that evening, he thought the MUNI had ample remiss for rejecting both the abase reasintina before it. Before any rep were taken tolllll.4llabelishlog church rates, they nest me how justice was to be dew to the public, as wiliest those who, haying Murat rata, demanded that that "WI" .e2rtke to ez tapted. He should vote against any rrslsßria similar to those before the house, until some smidasfam miniante for church rates had lesentpropmed. Mr. BRIGHT said it could not have been otherwise San gratifying both to those hon. ambers who wwe dissenters sod to those who were sincere mem ben et the Werth of England to observe the essemote in whisk the quietism had been discussed. It was deskalde that this question should be settled dearly and distinctly, and this with the least possible delay. There had been venous projects suggested to the house on hewer esessisos nod la the worse of the prima debate; mays these Ow esseedies of the boo. member for the city et Oallard was wild* entitled to greatiattention, though, tom what he kayo of the condition of the population in the parishes et the north of England, and he believed the ems user mai much the same elsewhere, be doubted gendaseldw Whether any such plan as that of the yes podemen't Gadd be worked in such a manner as even to midgets the evils arising out of the present state of this tweetko. (Hear, hear.) There were many diffieul tiss easterradiag the a:atter ; and these difficulties would ow tandy not be bowed by the endeavour to separate, in the wooer suggested, the populati on of lame parishes Mere dissenters and ahtpeople. (Hear, hear. Moe than thie, there was involved in his hon. friend's proposition a principle which he would not admit; he would never consent that dissenter+, because they were disseatsre, were in soy degree to be shut out from any par ti.ipaden which they might at some future time have in the weesety of the ehutch, or its management (Hear ) It might bemme hereafter a question what was to be dons with the fonds which the state now entreated to what was e.lled the natioaal church, and he could not comsat that dissenters, as such, should be dispossessed of their „ ea t i n t eres t in whatever course shold then be ad pied. (Hear, hear.) The difficultke of the subject had been long since understood and acknowledged, and hat more especially been the subject of demean in that hosts 1/ ? !..NIIiG,.3 . WARCIA 14. 1849.. . ornate diet thin date/tea 1: 1 2 4111111 Ao spr beest remeedit. gel filo • eleistits t co• fell as was k its preempt . mewl. _settled. Ail the matter .iltied. after the ' . tinsifinftifts be bl ooms, slabld gins — er r the result le •w •' be 'lad -'acre was this, that either the fabric' of Omni must be maintained by funds derived fon& ea I, whisk - Welt Wooly practicable le the *awed musespeet nasal sindioli-geoparey itself, At the steep sus nark es It en et W some It eassesat egifteista sad Wit Immolbersior and Isatilltier, seta Use meallinetthe amok elottelves, for their own sake, cossetted to melanin disk MI *grebes, ft, k all wreak es anew the rate for that pewee le be a Mary rate. (Hear, hear.) Already this was dlegmition ' the question assumed ft many pyrislase. In dm petite of Masekewer, far example. a very large perish. • oompulsory ram; had not 'been levied for Duey years ; the fabric of eke church bad been supported altegetber by 'oleo easy contribution • yet the eburch of Manakestor—tbe Ca thedral, he should rather say—was now in, to say the least, as good a °Dakhla+ u when the rate was compulsory. (Hear, beer.) In Rochdale. main, the eltureltwourdens spent, some yea" ago, 7001. or 8001, • year of chunk rates, no sae haw bow, but it was rnmeund that much of the money went in jovial Seism ; after a wtsik, by Met et "loser supervision this 7001. or 8001. was redacted to Mlll., and this eight to 2001., and 1840 saw the last contest isr demob rates that ever disgraced the borough and in land the cause of ehristianity throughout that district. (Hear, hear.) A disgressfid sesee, indeed, it was. Mote than 12,000 votes were given ou the occasion. Bight or ten rains of country around were in a state of excitement never approached by that of any p.rliamentary election that he had ever wietessed ha It, Previous to the clam of the poll the streets were crowded with thousands of Cand the view: and the magistrate celled out l hsi esoge. The vices had kept the poll open, seder some posiest or other, longer than the time at first announced ; the dimetioat was doubled by this proceeding, and after the dim st the proceedings the vicar was to be seen, es be passed Wthe town, surrounded and followed by 8,000 or et than whom the law called his flock, hissing and besting him, in &manner that must have been distressing, age mis aM esi one who had the slightest care for the church or for C . (Hear, bear.) This was a seenesrbieb, with ordain Menaces, according to circumstances, had been acted ia many parishes throughout the country, end would le mead in many more, unless, sad until, the system was obannol. (Hear, hear.) It was not long ago that a wasp was pursued for church rates by the churchwardens is the town of Cambridge. They did not distrain on him, bat bunted him into the ecclesiastical court; and, finally, ins pinned him, on the ground of contempt of court ; and he was only liberated by the intervention of the Secretary of State. And in this city a piece of worship, belonging to a body of diameter', is al most annually stripped of its hurl tare—chairs, tables, and forms are taken away by the agents of the law acting in the collection of rates on behalf of the established church. It was with no hostile feeling to the larch as a religious body that he would ask the house to .snider this question as more important than it might seem from the rather brief discussion upon it that had taken place on the present occasion. He would ear nestly de.jre to impress upon the house his sincere conviction, that, never since Christianity began, had there been a ME, or set of men, able enough or wicked er ough to do that injury to Christianity which was done to it by the system which be now soothe to put an end to. (Rear, hear.) He was persuaded that, wherever them abuses existed— wherever a disregard far religion—ea indifference, not to say a coot mpt, for Christianity existed—this feel ing derived strong argument from the conduct of those who, professing and c.elli ,g themselves Christians, put as arbitrary law in force as the means of forcing the consciences and despoiling the property of their fellow- Christians. (Hear, hear.) It was from no desire to et iumph over the church, or pecuniarily to relieve the dissent n from anything they could in justice be called upon to pay, that he sass d to have this question settled en • just and amicable basis, bat because he believed that for the well-being of the country there could be nothing worse than the divisions and hostilities and bitten...4os which arose from religions bickering., and believing further, as he did, that there was • largo portion of the people who judged Christianity much more by the acts of those who prof seed it, than from the principle, whirl were laid down in the Book whams. was drawn the knowledge of it (Rear, hear.) It was gedeselyelear that all attempts to Christianize them, to elevate Shea 'morally or religiously, were counter acted to an alarming degree by such Kenos as those to which he had adverted. (Hear, hear.) He should give his vote in favour ef the motion of the honourable memos r for Twits*, beesees he considered it desirable that the home should express an unequivocal opinion on the MOW He would only add that be was not ono of those who dotted that the fabrics of the church should go to decay ; all he meant to say was, that he believed the property of the church itself was fully sufficient to meet the charge, and that he considered the church should meet it. (Hear, bear.) Sir R. PEEL usid the hon. gentleman had justly ob served, that the dismission on this most important subject had hitherto proceeded in a spirit of great moderation, with an evident desire to consider it maturely in all its bear ings. The very spirit so evinced rendered it ad ditionally desirable that the house should not allow itself to be hurried into the adoption of a mere resolution. The resolution which they were asked to Mitres, was in point of fact, a condemnation of the law as to church rates, but surety the hones ought not to deal with as nemeliested and difficult a matter as this by resolutioo. (Hear, hear.) The Brat, the second reading eta bill, did not commit the house 1 to its ultimate acceptance, but the affirmation of a resolution placed the house in • position whence it could not recede, without exposing itself to the clear imputation of flagrant inconsistengi(Hear, hear.) Suppose the resolution adopted, most at once proceed to the Introduc tion of • Suppose that bill rejected, in what a position woull the conatry be 'plated as regarded church rates. (Hear.) As yet no distinct proposition had been I made as to a substitution for the church rate proposed to be abolished; true, various Fleets had been suggested, but the very Rumber and vagueness of these suggestions should operate as • warnings to the house not to commit themselves on the present seem. (Hear, bear.) As to the proposi tion of the hon. and learned member for Oxford, he amid not conceive a greater evil than to lay down the proposition that persons calling themselves dissenters might exempt themselves, rot from a religious feeling, but merely to escape a small payment. ( Hear, hear.) Ms years sines it was proposed by Lord Allhorp to repeal church rates, and to transfer the burden to the Consolidated Fund, perhaps the most obvious alternative ; but, looking at the opposition to the payment as • question of religious scruple, it appeared very clear, that the feeling would be infinitely 'shagged by a transference of the charge to the Consolidated Fund. (lieu, hear.) In the country districts the mere would most assuredly be so, the main burden of the payment being there sustained by the laltied gentry, the large proportion of whom were members of the church. (Hear, hear.) It appeared to him that if this reso lution wets adopt( d, and any person professing to be a dis senter were to be exempt from the payment of this recognised obligation, there would next week be a demand set up for exemption from tithes on the same grounds. In what state would they leave the law if they adopted this resolution They would have condemned the law, and not have founded any law in its stead—(hear)—and would have given to the agitation against church rates • redoubled excitement. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentlemen opposite sugges•ed that the church property itself, if improved as it might be, was fully adequate to the payment of church rates; but the hon. gentleman did not take into consideration the large demands made on the church by tenon of the present im perfect parochial system, the increase of the population, and the daily rising demand le all directions for extended spiritual Instruction. (Hear.) Improve the value of church property as you might, these demands would more then ab sorb the whole result. (Hear, hear.) He (Sir R. Peel) wu not one of those who opposed the redistribution of the re venues of the church; he had given prooh to the contrary in his proposal to a ppl y the revenues of sinecures in the church, and otner ecelastioel funds, to the extension of livings, and the improvement of livings already created. But, still, he would express the hope that the gentlemen of England would never congest to relieve themselves from a burden to which they were properly subject, in order to transfer the burden to other shoulders. (Hear, hear.) He would en treat the house to reserve the matter for more mature Donal &ratios. After a few words from Mr. 0/115011N1, Mr. GLADSTONE concurred with his right hon. friend in hoping that the house would not cane to a precipitate decision on this Met important question. A mere abstract resolution, eves ff adopted, could toot at all really expedite the settlement of the matter. That the question should be settled, no man more anxiousl desired than himself. Vier, hem.) He thought the evi ls attending the system enor mous—(huse, hear)—he coasiderad that we certainly had deviated in pentelos extzessaly from the original principle and inteation of the law—(hear, hear)—the original inten tion of the law was not to impose a mere uncompensated burden upon any man, but • burden for which every man bearing it should receive a benefit, so that while each member of the community war found to contribute his quota to the church, every member of the church' was entitled to go to the el urchwarden, and demand a free place wherein to worship his Maker, in the house of that Maker. (Hear, hear.) When be sonsidered 4s orth ab r e. contrark how all the valuable, in other words all the churches was moesopolised by pews, the property of theWher and middles classes, and which added la a• way whatever to the use of the community at large. end the mods* dames, who found themselves excluded from all AMEN at Peke or bearing, who, in fact, when called to the ohne& of thtir God found themselves exposed there to social degradation which they underwent nowhere else—(hear, hear)—when he reflected upon these things, he moot awenedly felt that the whole subject was is a most unsatisfactory emsdition—(hear, I hear)—and that of consequent* it bekoreall parliament to I give deep attention to any proposition that should seem to I afford • protect of • just settlement. While, therefore, he r opposed the motion before him in its present form of a rem . lotion, be should not have thought himself entitled to reject it had it come before him in the shape of • t bill, for he should have been willing at all events to encourage an onward step to that settlement of the question e hich he deemed it so essential to attain. Lord J. RUSSELL said that the hon. member for Mid ; dlesex had given very unsatisfactory reasons why the house I should anent to the preseat resolution, when he stated that • It had pursued a similar course last year by 'peeing to an abstract resolution in favour of the ballot, because if a bill I for instituting the ballot was to be introduced, it would moat I probably be found that whilst the resolution of the house I was in favour of the abstract principle, the sense of the house would be decidedly opposed to carrying it into r practise. He could not, therefore, agree to the I resolution of the hon. member for Tavistock on I those grounds, or indeed on at y other. It the house was I prepared to pass • bill far tie immediate and total aboll'ion I of Church rates, it could do so without having recourse to theapireliminary step et agreeing to • aseolatim, and tbere feeak was a usable el -tee iseportariee to agree is it. He lipid& au% haws e. believe that it would ire expedient ce 'impel le sheikh Mink rates and to make no other pant ekes for those wenn for which they were raised. He flail* Weed he all the objections that had been urged against church red, end he was ready to join in ally pan by which they am* be Mee away with conektenty with justice and qui pregemaglim of churches. The remedy proposed by Lord Alas*, rfeh wasio charge the church raise upon the goesolidstsdlegal, would has probably provided • remedy for sush emit es that *Medea to by the hon. member for Manciageber, where a clergyman bad been hooted by 10,000 of his puiehiners at a polliag about a cattiest for church rates. But another seams of dimension would have sprung out of Lard ditherers pro posed remedy, namely, es to whether chunk rates could ghtly he charged upon the con solidated fund so that it was on the whold coaddered to be t ' • not worth tate to get r id of one objection by raising another. Then there woe the plan suggested for *riding church rates oat of the funds ef the church exclusively. But they were required for purposes of a spiritual character. He quite agreed with the right Pon. gentleman, the member foe Oxford university, with respect to the lamentable fact that in the town churches the chief places were oecupled by the wealthier dsesse,pothe exc'usion'ot the poorer people, sad that those alone who were respectably, not to my finely, dressed, monopolised all the pews. But this was an evil not to be remedied by abolishing church rates. Agreeing gene rally in the proposition that it was desirable to find other means for defraying the expense of repairing churches, he must say that he could not went to the resolution of the hon. member. The hon. member for Montrose had stated that it was a abase the church rates should be exacted from dis solvers. He (Lard 3. Russell) did not so consider the matter. In the first place, there Wag no shame in levying chunk rates on dissenters who bought lends, because they bought them subject to that charge, and it has a.lowed for in the price. In the sec and place, if diaentme were only occupiers of land, they wry rigidly calculated the burdens to which the land was subject in the shape of poor rates, highway rates, tithes, and church rates, and regulated the rent they paid accordingly. Therefore, there was no ju.tice in these complaints. Neither did he think that the church establishment wee for the exclusive benefit of .Charth of England men. (Loud cheers.) The justificatioa of church rates rested on the fact that the church rate was a greit tribute paid as a homage to religion —(loud cheers)—and society would not only not be improved by the abolition of the church, but would be degraded thereby. The same reasons that were urged for abolishing church rates would be equally valid for doing away with tithes. In fact, he did not see where a stand could be made upon the principle of abolishing church rates if that were agreed to. The argument that church rates were not justifiable contained more then at first sight ap peared in it. If any substitute for them were ' proposed, he for one would not object to give it his beet con sideration. He did not hope to find en effectual one in the proposal of the hon. member for the city of Oxford, and be had alto ady opposed a similar one when brought forward by the hon. member for Finsbury. On the present occasion he °nosed the resolution upon principle, and also because it would, if affirmed, lead to consequences which the house would never consent to sanction. Mr. G. THOMPSON told the noble lord, after the dis couraging speech which he had delivered, that the dissenters would bide their time, and watch for the opportunity which the government could not or would not make for relieving the church of England from the reproach of perpetuating so great a scandal as exacting rates from persons not belonging to that eatsbithment. _ _ Mr. HENLEY said that one of the arguments by whisk the revelation bad been defended was manifestly a wrong one. It had been attempted to be shown that the resolution was brought forward on the strength of former decisions of the house, which decisions bad been come to upon entirely diff,not grounds. As long as the question of church rates was unsettled, the people had a right to dispute their pay ment. But the people were naturally inclined to obey the law as soon as any great question was settled by the law's decision ; and their refusal to pay church rates only lasted until the judges bad decided, in the slating of legislative interference, that church rat a were legally demandable. The strong opinions which had been expreese i on the subject of church rates by the hon. member for Tamworth and others only had reference te the state of things previous to the decision of the courts es to the liability of all occupier' to pay those rates, and that decision being solemnly declared, the eyes of the people became at once opened to the necessity of paying them. He thankod the noble lord opposite for lus manly declaration of that might—(cheers from the opposition)—and he add not but contrast the views entertained by the noble lord on the subject of church pews with those of the right hon. member for the Oxford university. Why, ha would ask, were the scruples of conscience of the dissenters as to church rates to be exclusively listened to ? There were other equally sera us scruples of conscience on the subject of war, and was the house to pass an abstract resolution condemning war, or were those who opposed war to be relieved from contributing towards the support of the army and navy ? He could not separate the dissenters from any other elan of the people. There was an impost existing from time immemorial, founded on the common law of the land, and destined to defray the expenses of repairing churches. On the other hand was a set of individuals who had sprung up within the last 250 years, and who now claimed exemption from that impost on the ground of their reluctant* to pay it from conscientious motives. Such he feared was the elasticity of censc'enee and so au or Obis was it of enlargement, that if exemption from the payment of church rates was given to all classes the churches would not be repaired, for no ono would pay the rates. The dissenters never endeavoured to dud lands or houses unincumbensi with payments for church lutes. That was an obj-ction never yet heard from a dissenter in leasing or buying lands or houses. The fact was that the entaples of conscience as to church rates were more an allega tion than a reality. Again he begged to thank the noble lord egresite for his manly speech, and the declaration which sic semnaand it. Ile. COBDEN—Sir, the hon. member who has just sat down has expressed an opinion respecting the people of the church of England which I trust will be found not to apply to them, or to have any foundation. The hon. member boa told the horse, that if for conscience sake we permit the people at large to exempt themselves from the necessity of Paying church-rates, the churches will never be repaired, for no one would ever consent to pay the rates. (No, no.) I think the hon. member said, that such was the el asticity of the people's conscience, that if they were exempted from paying church-rata the churches would never be re paired, because no one would ever pay the rater. (Hear.) I therefore repeat that I do hope the hon. member has mis represented the great body of church of England men who are in this country. The hon. member began his speech by thanking the noble lord the prime minister for the declara tion contained in his speech, and he ended his speech by again thanking the noble lord. If that noble lord has pleased the hon. member and his friends on the other side of the house threspett to this resolution,he must be prepared toplease them in many other measures. But I warn him that he will by so doing lose many of his friends on this aide of the house. (Hear.) The hon. member opposite argued the question as if the scruples of conscience which had formerly existed rela tive to church rates had been quieted as soon as it was found that the hw had declared that the rate was legally demandable. But the hon. member was wrong in his deductions from the state of the law. It was true that the rate was absolute'y levied,• and mild not under the law be refused to be levied; but the majority of the parishioner declared what the amount of the church rate should be. There was a case in point eccurred some time ago at Rochdale, where according to the law it was indispensable that a church rate should be made. It was proposed that it Would be one farthing in the pound. But so strong was the coascientious objection to the principle of a church rate, that out of some hundreds of men who filled the church not twelve could be found who would hold up their hands for the farthing rate, and there was some danger that it would not be carried until the amine exclaimed, " Now, all you who are for a farthing rate, which you will never have to pay, signify the same by holding up your hands." The consequence was that the rate was carried, but it was never paid, the expence being more than the proceeds. The question is entirely one ofpounds, shil lings, and penee.But it had been made to appear in a very differ ent light, and I shall noticed this over without reminding the hon. member for Buckinghamshire that the church-rates are an ancient charge upon the land, and that they are not a local tax from which the land can claim ex I empti n. I don't deny that this is an ancient heathen, I nor do I put it upon the footing of tithes, weak are a charge upon property. But it is a very di ff erent thing to relieve occupiers from the payment of church-rates and ' to impose them on the consolidated fund, and to remit the payment of those rates to the dissenters, on the ground of their conscientious scruples. Church rates are only le vied for the support of the church wherein the Christian religion is taught to the people. The dissenters' statement is that they, being likewise Christians, professing, as they believe, a purer term of faith than the church of England, main tain their own places of worship, and claim upon that ground exemption from contributing to the planes of worship of others. All the dissenters asked was that they should not be compelled to pay two rates—not their own rates and your rates too. (Hear, hear.) The great difficulty in the matter has been to find a substitute for this impost, end the noble lord on the treasury bench has said that if any such ts proposed it skill have his best consideration. But the hon. and learned member for Oxford city has done what the noble lord desired, and I think his plan is not only a eonsistent but a just one. (Hear.) He proposes to exempt dissenters from the payment of church rates, and to leave It entirely to the churchmen to pay their own rates. I aa a churchman constantly pay those rates. (Hear.) In the manufacturing districts, the voluntary churches abound. There are In Manchester forty voluntary churches to one of the established church, and notwith.tanding this no diffi culty is experienced in procuring funds for their support and repair. W he n men frequent a church they willingly contri bute to its support. The hon. member for Oxford said very truly that if there was not religion enough amongst the churchmen to induce them to support their own churches, a sense of honour and of pride would prevent them from allowing them to fall into de cay whilst dissenters' churches were so well supported. and they would be ashamed to see dissenting chapels well maintained and thronged with congregations earnest enough to maintain the fabric of their places of worship, whilst their own churches were gang to decay. (Cheer) Sir, I repudiate toe sentiment altogether; I think there fano dan ger whatever of churchmen shrinking from tit-it duty of supporting their own places of worship. I believe, if you will put these church rates on the voluutsry principle your churches will be as well supported as they are new. (Hear, hear.) I do not believe in that low, boas sentiment which the hon. gentleman attributes to the members of the Church of England, that they would pass themselves off for dissenters, that they would play the hypocrite to escape this paltry tax. (Cheers.) . I do not suspect the world art much practical hypocrisy at all : men generally are i i earne,t in matters of religion. At any rate, if they be hypocrites, they in general take their wares to a better market than the Lea Y - the pitiful amount of the ohareh rate. T ono auto my itds will support the original motion, I, being a chum& man, and anxious to show my desire to prevent disinter s paying the rates of the church to which I hekng, shall have mosh o sleasurs in supporting the amendment of my him )d leers friend, the memb e r fu r th e city of Oztord. The house then divided. The numbers were— For the original motion Against it The house again divided immediately, when the mambo MVO— For the amendment B4 Against it The Original motion and the amendment coastline), both fall to the ennead. AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS—THE ADJOURNED DEBATE. On our return to the gallery, we found Lord J. RUSSELL on his legs, urging the hose. land * for Buckinghamshire to arrange for the conclusion of the debate on agricultural distress on There thy evening. Mr. DISRAELI said if the debate commenced teenten on (this day) and had precedence on Thursday, no dawn, might be concluded upon Thursday evening. Mr. E WART said he could not consent to put off his ass• eke. with respect to the public libraries' which stood fins ter Thursday. He promised, however, that his statement should be as brief as possible. Mr. DISRAELI said, to cut the matter short, the ed. joarned debate would, at any rate, commence to - sorrow (this I day). CLOSING THE DOORS BETWEEN DIVISIONS. Mr. BOUVERIE said the house would no doubt recollect that, in the course of last session, he had called their atton fine to the practice of keeping the doors closed between two divisions—a practice contrary, certainly, to all principle; be, cause it might well be that a member might wish to take part in one division and not is the other. (D m . ham) Upon the examine to which he r e f e r re d l an session, the Speaker called the inejeant to the bar of the house, and desired that the door should be kept opened between divisions. The same thing had 'courted this ens. ing. Ilitatelf hied several hon. members were present at the time the first division closed, and he submitted thst the officer should have proceeded directly to open the dun e (Hear, hear.) The SPEAKER said certainly the door should hen been opened atter members returned from the first dinette. A very small interval, however, had elapsed between the doss of the first division and the commencement of the second, end it was possible that the officer at 'he outer e.ooe mien not have been aware that the first division had terminated. (Hear, hear.) The matter then dropped. SMALL DEBTS (IRELAND). On the motion of Mr. W. FAGAN, leave was givers to bring in a bill to prevent actions in the superior mark in Ireland, where the debt did not cereal 20' , and to improve the measures for the reciwery of debts. ILLEGAL ORDINANCES. —VAN DIEMEN'S LAND, Mr. ANSTEY rose to move an address to her Majedyea the subject of certain illegal ordinances or acts of council for the taxation of the people of Van Dieme.i's Lend, the attempts of Lieut.-G wernor Sir William Denis:a to intistie date the judges of the Supreme Court of that island into de. cluing inch erdinanci s or acts to be legal, and the grim emcee complained of by the colonists of that island in deck ' pe ition presented I ,st year to her M a jesty, and printed by order of this house ; and that her Majesty may be please:lb direct the hod authorities in future to respect the inde. peuder.ca of the judicial functins cf that court, and a l so be signify her disallowance of any ordinance or act subs( comely r passed by the said lieutenant-governor in council, lot giving ' to such illegal ordinances or acts the force of law. The bon. member was proceeding to detail the penicillin of the case when an hon. member moved that the house be coasted ' and only 38 members being present, the home adjourned et 20 minutes past 11 o'clock. ght tErproso. OUTGOING MAILS. The West India hails, minding bermutia, Havanna, Nene, Honduras, New Orleans, and Nexioo, and including that Ye Weirs, et. Juan-de-Nicarague, New Granada, Chili, and Penh MI be made up on the morning of the 17th of Keret. The mails for Vigo, Oporto Lisboa, Madeira, Cadiz, and Mediae will be made op nn the morning of the 17th March. The malls for Gibraltar, Malta, Greece, die loni in Wands, Fmk Aden, Ceylon, India, tlong-Kong, and China, via douthampten, NI be made up on the morning of the 20th Narch. The mulls for linnah North America, and the United Nein, will be made up on the evening at Me 23rd March. The mail; sin fdareellles, to the Memo:roux:an. Egypt, kae. Ceylon, India, Hong-Kong, ta., will be made up on the cm* of the 21th March. _ _ _ . . --- Tiemaai; the Weet Cwt of Africa end Madeira wlllbe up on the evening of the Slat of March. The mails for new nooth Wales, Van Dieman's Land, and Nso Zealand will be reads up on the events/ of the 31st March. '1 he mails for Madeira, the Brasile, and Buenos Ayres, will be mob up on the evening of the 4th of April. MOH . WAT . EI . , AT LONDON SILIDOIR TR. is - Zi.7 l ;ul - i:Zi1;47.71.733r.g.. pest S. —llonalae. Simla. pest I; MU:mom 7 sta. poi S. LONDONWEDNESDAY,MAR.I4 ENOUGH has been said of the manner is wh ch the protectionist scheme of financial ebange . has been brought forth. It is time to 'A what is its real drift? Mr. DisataLi's merits es a rheto rician are great and unquestioned; but on subjects of fiscal nieces and teem, plain, unromantic, straight. forward pt-ople are apt to ask whether the advocate e - mid not as easily speak just as well on the opposite side of the question? Mr. DISRAELI is own all hands valued and listimed to as an advocate. He may pos. sibly have persuaded himself that the s'de he under takes to plead ter is as good a cause as any other. But still it is notorious that nobody ever asks what Mr. DISRAELI thinks upon any question. It is only, what will he say?—that being all, in fact, which is of the least importance in the esteem either of friends or foes. _ _ _ And so the question—now that the orator's fire works have all died oat—remains to be asked and answered—what was it all for? The entertainment was very amusing and brilliant ; but 'who gave it, and what did it mean ? Not for nothing does a man like Lord STANLEY, the recognised head of the tory party, plot and propound in this fashion. What would that hardy and headetrceg chief of aristocracy be at? Whither would he direct egricultaral diecontent when he had tantalised its credulity, stimulated its jealousy, and worked its premien into fury ? Lord STANLEY is no longer a young man, though we believe that he is likely to die a rash one. Lord STANLEY is not an inexperienced man, it maey and early opportunities of knowledge always conferred experience. Lord STANLEY ma hardly be called a disappointed man, though he has be!onged to both eider, and by both in turn been made to feel that his alienation was regarded rather as a relief than a loss, end that his alliance was deemed only hes dangerous than his hostility. Upon the whole, it is impossible to review his past career, and contemplate his actutl position as undies puted head of the class whose passions and whom prejudices he impersonates so strikingly, without the reeling teat an• h a man cannot bo suspected lightly of throwing such a position away. Yet throw it away he must, if in public he hoists a conspicuous standard, and entrusts it to his beat man to earls only for the purpose of seeing it flaunt gaily for an hour, and then be trodden in the deist. The plan, as pictured forth by the eminent paths. mentery artist, if taken in its literal simplicity, hum little air of practicability about it, that one is driven to the alternative of looking rather beyond what hu been spoken in its behalf, and to inquire what ulti mate purpose it may be put forward to forerun. The transfer of six millions of local rates and charges to the consolidated fund, would, all the world knows, benefit the owners, not the occupiers 'of land—the landlords, not the farmers ; foe all these rates and charges are deduc eine in the main from rent, and where they are lightened the amount paid in rent is just so much augmented. Neverhelt ss it may be admitted that there are some cases of sebeisting contracts where such a transference of fiscal pressure would operate as a direct relief; and doubtless every artifice of popular delusion would be put in requisition for the purpose of persuading the entire body of the farmers of England that they would all be benefited equally by thn change. Then comes the question,—how is room to be made for the transferred load on the consolidated fund? — With grave assurance Mr. DIbRAELI says—the sum which would be wanted by the general exchequer in order to meet this new demand might be raised . 112 various ways :—the simplest would be by an p crew, or as he graphically termed it, an apans" of the income tax. The irony of this seems to have been somewhat overdone. His backers did not laugh as the orator perhaps reckoned on their doing; and his expectant opponents taking it for onion, simply cried—pooh, pooh ! Everybody seemed to feel that such an impossible crotchet did not merit deliberate attention, and some have probably with too contemp tuous and indolent disdain resolved to inquire no further. It seems to us as though it were intended by the obvious impracticability of such an expedient to drive men to the cone mplation of other and less unattain able methods of accomplishing the grand &foga. And these, from the nature of them, are too few and manifest to admit of any doubt. Add six millions a year t. the permanent burtbcos of the country for the purpose or on the p re t e nce of relieving particular class of the community therefrom, asd the taost lam were mai was *red the meml empt dim Mr. GLA of Geer Lord To] the odiou i g Mr. li 40 evoy fat Chu, M 11 p weifol The fu ve bee nal a t. olisheJ tme req vie d b . 433.1, )rought shurnt-r1 eettain t 'bated h Licit was Iroduaed to by tl 250,000/. drop. 'for f i t i l. 1: Pon, en Lord Ai boli , ion owe 0 church r , EXCHEQ Oa a 1 RUNBELI romantic when Oil the revel was. int dropped, mode of was euhi the demi 1838. 1 1840, M bill to re rates, wl inajority bill, whi church-r In the larked weer w 'licit a tion t f of IS Use rhen re • ....•••••7- ... . atiditione retro'. ewal 4 indiret • wise . •° e volt princil this co lose. urco--i In of h the til ntly • tworn Is this country 1 pbide the ,I n teresta • i gs!l nter-r issil ? T hastlY of 'omong7t of all in sieve the would op the great the work be taken deepen ought i • holdiß ire. NV ouspicion Jead his i Mn. T 1 • question I fl'he diNie Lion aro Not lens i should lx of church solution.