The Express. — London, England, 1849-02-27 00:00:00

tflaer hai them recalled. (Hao, hear.) Well. I eom now smile. V. had di this with the tinted hates =lle Made beandirye.in hun t the Minden between sad Amines me mod by the basabas of tbe Oasides, when the Man beeidaty raestL wel salibtolt and flea there was .stigma" enellimmitk Aesseio, and ism neitemeat here. Four dissimei Mors were added to our marine ; but Fwrd Asiehartea ear bash with an makable train MIME the whole dispels about the hemilary. Yet we had no re. Medea of them mikes. (Rear, bona Well i _tbsat solo 1845. That was a useless stale ef Often. We ked • dis pute with the waited mess imaidete OnSto My. Peesiding Palk seat own smelba mange. General Oms gook Mme &dews ind iallment oembillb .111 thin sous • feeling Sheet we were is &Maim anger ef a Wines en that Mader, questisu Amiss dedered that the wend cake missies of the territory, sad admiaktir bee he. tame. "ad we said we weld act submit to have Oregsa Moe tram us. Well, there was a pepsin to Meese our navy and 'inhibit a fleet of online& We aceardiagly had a fleet at Spithead, and her Majesty weal there to see it, and I resel ls* it was stated In the poen at the time to be mere formidable Ikea the fleet that gained the battles of Trafalgar ad she Nile. (A Mgt.) Well, la that year we bad sa 11111P10110 of 1,700,0001. in the army, navy, sad °dame do. penmen mad my hon. kind the member for Mentrom gen • M ; ULE meat to that increase seder the sheen Maces the, detailed. (" Her, hese," sod laughter.) WeD, ben the Oregee qsedan was settled in the summer 01846 I believe its was the lest act performed by the right Ma. harem the member for Timmth beton ha mat out of odes be 1846. When, thee, is the plea in keeping up that enormous armament? (" Her, hear," and cheers.) Be, in 1846, no sooner was the Oregon queens. settled, than we erten.' late diplo matic quarrel with Freaes reepectiew the lipsain maims. I call it • diplomatic quarrel, though I might call it a mart quatrel—(beer, bear)—for the people of this country had no isterest he it, Bet It gave tie. to bad blood in Frames, and to • state of irritatien in this country, and the men of the two marks famed the flame, and no one could delay that there was • great alienation, if not hostili:y, between the two matries. That was ineressei by the previous public dee of Prime idaville's pamphlet, and also by the old nudge is the case of Mr. Pritchard. This produced a had spirit between us and France, and, accordierly, we bewessed our "miscellaneous" that year by 1.200,0031. Is 1847 the mme spirit contieued Wm* the two countries, mail we had diseuen.ne about forts tag ear comet against an amok Arm France; and at the end of '47 we had a panic maw as, end we were then persuaded by Mr. Pign, the ouspoirder maker—(l4od laighter)—that the French were Manly mains to attack as. (Renewed laughter.) We had another lactose of army and ordnance in '47 to the moan of 1,000,0001. The actual increase for army, navy, *ad caimans' in '47 wee, I believe, 1,600,0001., but whether be takes to same of the item I know not. I ask da m how whether there is one of the causes which led to these monsive augmeatatioes of our marine, army, and ordnance that sow remade? (Rear, hear.) The last of which I have spoken, I think, might have been the most serious of all, though, as I stated, it was only a diplomatic quarrel ; bet as it bourse dream, and as the second generation in the person of Prim Joiaville, had entered into it, it might have grown into something serious between the two man. trim, if the question had not been Eared by • very rads had—the late revolution in France, which has pet an end to all ponibility of quarrelling between us and Frame on the susjece of the marriages in Spain. (Rear, Mar.) Per, whatever other grounds of danger and apprehension may resale., no on. need apprehend that France sad Bagdad will quarrel about the successor to the Spanish crown. (Rear, hem.) Well, I ask hon. mem bers who are going isogon me—those who will not admit that we may return es speedily NI practicable to a standard nib as we had is 1836 and IM6—n put their linger oa any of the ceases for this. seenessive augunntations of our gr, sad tall me on. that new remains (Hear,lsear.) eir, we stead at the present omelet in inlaid, a anon:ior ponies es mewed with our foreign reddens to what we did in '35; for, in '36, when we had reduced ear • expenditure to th.t point, hone gentlems will resamber that we were not in a very friendly position with soda. Per several years we bad no .mh at St. Peniehmg. We wen marauding, too, on the eosin of Spain, br we lad our quadruple treaty, by which we famine& mersimeies wader or kreiga some. We wen, thee, In 1833, net is se seem a state with our foreign relating es we an new. I ask say one to point oat when the danger is now throe tmed. Is it with Amite, and on amount of these boundary CarAswhin we were enured were to germinate a war ner of a eatery ? Is it with Frame ? Is it with Reds? who is ecessious that, with her twenty millions of eds. she has quite m meek to do at home is say other many. (Rear, km.) I say that if Ragland takes dm selvenige of he dealer position, and condo herself to her own been—(bear, keer)—and does not ran into needless and rash disputes with other countries, there never was a time when she stood so free from danger of war as at the pro em moment. (Rear, hear.) On present political slats, as regards err foreign relations, might be said to be as calm as still water. It may be objected, when asked to go back to the standard of 1836, that the expenditure of that year was too low. I do not admit that, my bon. friend the mem. her fort Moatrese will not admit it. (A laugh.) It has been said that the services were left in en inefficient state in 1815. My hon. friend the member for Skid Id said on a bran masks that the dockyard. had been loft in • state of destantion. My hon. friend ought to lean remembered that that was said once before. In 1816, when the and teed the ember for London, and all kis le ad ing whip en leagues were advocating a reduction of the naval and military eignikameats to the standard of 1792, it wee said that the Mahal mainjudiciously low, and that Mr. Pitt had ever after regraded be bed made It so low. This was repeated by Lord Caidegook and ethers, ad ourearan, until Lord Grenville denied Mat Ik. Fat 'Outdated such an opinion, and that hem ths itsalsory always esagratilsted himself that he had Mused them eitaldishmente so low after the Anteriean war, because it enabled this country to come into war with Frame with recruited forces. For the reduction of 11133 we are mainly indebted to • right hon. gentleman (Sir J. Gra ham), her whose administrative talents I entertein the great est respect and admiration, and I call upon hies to say who- Dm the dockyard, were left by him in the state of &Mea th& dineribed by the hon. member for Sh. Meld. Turning from em foreign relations, I feel myself bound to ad vert to a quedon which ie always presented to as in amebas et this nature. Let any hoe. amber ask kr a rednedea of establishments, a d he is imam& Maly told that they are memo, for the maintenance of our south a. The right bon. baronet, the member for Tan a ner*, in his celebrated budget epoch of Feb. 14,1846, d -0f the In battalions of aeon fats hid* minim thew ere en el in lad* 30 are = a lbs Maim Mho snag Ode mem. mildeg h an rt he the &Mei dm staid maire. Wilms St a =we l lt ,ski sapplasi. far dee paeans et atakalake the peneatim hr pumas, awl eis dint it n ss mbidy. ef metandeg the system if Mins kr ear redmeassesemo - oesed. Now I ask the hones if the time is an come Whit WO ought seriously to comider whether we amen nem Me MIMS= expenditure lacuna by this erwary !sr ear isle. Mal pesinden ? (Hear, hear ) That minim was wag. ogled by agesaintto of the Muse in 1834; bas hew math mine aematary is it to mender it mw. What the ground b spec whin keeMaliers on jemdbly adverb the lmegisg up of that mina.manse I am at • Iso le ea undentend madmen who are preteadeeises .pea the prinelple that our eadmive trade win the misnies imam- Moos ft the tomes of the Weald mialiklnnes n :, estisallead them Mktg be nem mnaMlebnimin se : a as they lad a be Iteeplag wp Me_ minsipie Bat if there be pratectionine who *Lk that the Ned peters peinsiple am be restored, I am willing that they shield veto mean me ea this occedien. If, en the Maw head, there be frootenders who think that freeMede is only as eaperbeent, I am willing that they Is. skald take a ✓im lr Nam. Rat I ask how they whe think with on, that foes-trade is sot as slOodniaate bat Ape/main sale gad principle, on say Mow vele for the minimises of those otablinanate In ea admin. (Rear. bear.) Attaining to oar them el gees bale, we eassidar that we gin the colones iset been ki elloring them le Owls where they plum. We have gee thialawny kr omens% isd by Olaf; it to them we amen • gnat M et a to ty. Bat: we my they is, Mad ini kr those selehibhmente whisk are wattasay ha their ma defence and their awn geversissat. I bier seen geademen say that we nest make them an integral part of the Idaidem. But If we do, wall they pay our taxes and share oar dept ? It that is &se, I can under stand the plasipla of &lag se; bat enemies the ties mom sic —r. The peat mass ie r the people of this atentry on Ann no hessafrom oar solenies Men through the median et trade. It is only • very few who benefit b Mecum and mointsmata. (Rear. hear.) Such being the ease, 1 say is amiketly, unjust and indefensible, that you should tea the_people of tbis country for the means of oar ooleales. There was a great difference Mimes some plass, ask es Gibraltar and Melts, is whisk we met • limbos, and embalm sash as Andrade. New ibe Gm of Geed Mos whisk an iakeleited bye egal MIN whin an pined in a tospegage same, andisheme Inglidemen on homme indigenous. I say it is moinireas lid the meek! of England should be tatted foe sasiataineg the milWielenots of them colonies. I wish that has. nembese wield fast reflect • li'tls apMthe sem matinamelition of the inhabiteate of these Male amd the anis anatry ; for if they did they would led that thelwmr wen in an enviable state compesed with the lads , • mad that a labourer in Australia is open a with a Deisokire farmer. If bon. genitalia asasldae that I am waning logically and fairly, and ANION from the of free trade, they wad go with see es this ex tent - at ail events, that we must from this time peeper* to relieve ourselves as speedily r s possible from the meandieure we have .caned on account of our military mendihments in our micsits. In New Z-alsnd you have 2,000 risk end file, And net, 20,000 European inhabitants ; that is ablest ame soldier he awn ten catenate ; that one soldier MM. hem NUM from Zeeland, at the expense of the people of the ovate& • diabase of 12,000 or 16,000 miles, to be fed sad MOM is the midst of • people every one of whom moles W own tide, end knows how to use it. In Australis yea wee bound to end as armed force of 2,000 or 3,000 as • =Mb after the canine ; bat where then is no sash where there are no aboriginal inhabitants, and not men • ?met of pey to injure the colonists, I do say it is lead paw ma won injustice to compel I h r isi gaz Or a Mingo establishment which the colonists i mad enter Meg without, provided you give them the omen of thee, ma affairs. 1 do believe that mask of this fir*, is kept up y minable on Colonel-Oho to Moiablo be affaim in the wa it APO. (Wm. hem) TIM it is boil up seen to enable prousaisat %keep dews the pone. ties than to rigid that maladies against ea enemy. (Her, Mr.) I esasider that kes bade has enabled you to Mate your expenditare to a kW min than 1835, and yet leave you all the accessary force yea may require for pro- Meths at hems. It hie lien Own that any ens thhd of en hums an Nemat loffiffria Y this ennui, udtle two-thine= sielondmil air the okras. That is a whist requires a Mel ehmse, en if you rinse ft yea um se have any dinesdty sandeg the reigns IV for. I am aware that respeeling amernede at hose, yes ham Now a faun larger hem le' hashed sad Irian than is VOL lam veryeerry it is se; and I think nen hes prevailed a most osag g eraled idea es te the mewls, of that Versa. Lest year we IMO ell ia a penis, std send net reason en the siabjeet. But we hem as larger that MON. while the trials in the roans of law in sahreire le the nehmen that did take plan have them sane light mess what has beat unworthily dignified :by the name of ken. realm It has ben dearly shown that neither is igisd erg been have them been 100 mat cionederMsd Wisner with arms to war against the cavern and ormenment of this neantay. I believe that that esnesay of a reventice was never onstaieed by mitellege of mere thatßo mat, and of them six or eight will Inn (A WOO I holism, 1101•7114 if what I have been from moshirstes end ohms be Was, that whatever of meentios hales there wee hi the &Linehan' hers mime ken ingleatim, that if it had net hen he Ma eleessals there wend hove been ne tannins' ame the nshhe Beglisis perinhalea. Bann ft should be ressionell jades to thil country and le the as. of the working pee., that lbw eighteen months previous to the timbre* if the French winelmiss, they had paned through a ends of great 111suity, phallus and mitering. (Hear, Mar.) This prresan of 1847 was felt particularly in the moan of Yesk and Lenesater, and yet not the Ashen tendency to totem* or political enlistment ef any kind was ninon. The people believed to their ISIISSIOW that every once of food that fend An he tam le this sentry was admitted into it —they knew OM the naelpilhe laws were suspended, and they hit thet the pmentment had sot placed itself in antagonism to them o awl with tide sonection on their mind they abstained hem ell sets of hmtility towards the government, and ninon those of perfect loyalty and order. (Hear, hear.) Notwith standilig WS, attempts, which I own have filled me with feelings of surprise, not wunized with indignation, have been made to prove that it has been our troops, and our ar tillery, and ike hundreds of thousands of special constables alone who prevented a large portion of the people of this country from rising into rebellioa. I don't believe it—(hear, hear)—aad I am happy to think I bars no mom to believe it; for If it wets true it would be very 'mahatmas for the country. There is another point I teal bend to Mies in justice to the people of this country, sod in many to then&laded mea who are now expiating their arises se tellies, or both. I hope that at some huge thus it will be conedrred, particularly in reference to the cam of the young men, that when they erred this country was exposed to the influence of an electric shock which had bees felt all through Europe, sad that it was not an unnatural thing that men with vivid faacies or sanguine temperaments, or who felt keenly for the sufferings of the people, should have been seized with the idea of revolutionising the country. You had every reason to expect some attempt of the kind, and you have now reason to congratulate yoesesives that after a short interval you should find so little teem of it. Dat the conclualen I draw from all this is, that yes mann at the mein neaten take the condition of the people iegviesildestioa he keeping up a larger military force nee nun Os the ground, therefore, of our hedge relatitmeope the ground of ger aline connexions, and with reformist to ear domestic positita, I see no reason whatever to prevent the executive government from being authorised by this Mx se, as an act of justice and mercy to the taxpayers of the nation, largely to reduce our naval and military iO/ofll. (Hear, hear.) It is not mT intention to tell you on this omen what I would do with the mono saved, or how you might relieve the commercial and entrust industry oldie country by a large rendition of tax . I will not anticipate the opportunities which hon. gentlemen opposite will give me of proving to them that if they wish to abolish the sash tax gad the kap duties, it must and can only be Ousel by their wades he sine sash measure as I pen- Mt sea M remove every obstacle I can to the use end of labour and capital, whether in agriculture or measheturts (Hear, hear.) But I toll hon. gentlemen that it h useless to go to agricultural meetings, and talk 010/11111/ift bas malt tax and the hop duties, un less they look at the arithmetical table which I have placed before them, and as whether lan net right in saying that it is only by rehash( naval and military establishments this oar aan nt y large reduction of taxation ; without w hiff their scheme of abolishing those taxes which me alleged to be an exude in the way of the agriculturist cannot wall be carried out. There are other taxes as well w dein consideration. There is the tax upon Shaba?, which the government, I doubt not, desire to make corollary to the removal of the navigation laws. There are also bricks, and soap and paper, and tea—l hoer gentlemen to the right and le ft whispering some favourite tax for repeal. (A laugh.) You will have those doors besieged by petitioners anxious for the removal of those tax:s. It is not necessary that I should now dwell upon the necessity of removing them—ample opportunity will be afforded me on future aseMons, and I shall now conclude by urging, that if you are determined to maintain these eicarnams establishments, you are incurring far greater Tiers to this country than by reducing them yon have any reason to apprehend from the chance of col lision with foreign powers. I wish hon. gentlemen to bear that in mind when arguing with me. They may say there Is danger abroad, that at some distant time there any be a combination of foreign powers sufficient to threaten the peace or security of this country. If we had nothing else to do but hunt about for collisions with some foreign power, I might take the same view ; but in jetties to myself I Inver look at the question without considering what is the danger of reducing our forces, and what the danger if we continue the present enermoua amount of taxation. I have already shown that the increase in our establh/mtenb km token place to meet particular ease and alleged MeNetitille which no larger exist. It Is said now, that they mean be reduced, Decease other sountries have ineretrid their establishment., and that we must sot redoes, bemuse they do not. lam strongly of ephien that rosposths the navy we ere the odende i r: t aa:g i the dist loweass, and brstdl Inman ing. to the unmak of e opinion l n Frazee, there is now a pmt fie feeling amongst the people of that country ; and I believe that sny overture made by this hone or the country in a reduction of armaments would be freely met and 111.111,64 to by them. It is acknowledged by them, that theirllneaces farm the great danger and diffi culty tithe mew republic ; and that the only means of meet ing it h by a large reduction of their warlike establish. ments. But I would apply the pruning-knife to our civil establishments as wall, and have included in the list el our Will the amount for civil !M --rsa idge I think may justly be taken of werd i eprip it dais the civil expenditure of the country ; the east is smaihr eseten/y, but a great deal too exorbitant. Bat, be it remmillsrell, it Is not only the net amount of the revenue, *MS which Ins its way tato the easalidated fund, batwe hen le make war soonomy fr om —awe is • large ameeml whin mint eon's into the meow% se all, which goes in ablemements. sad In the ant of seasedes sad if it Ir a n Meld& *a noun in the spas the anent of new whisk hue rush the exeC env. Thresh pea have but time err tear millions in the erff onpanditure whis is =cr the ti maint yet y en m as s oohs Hem) Ia ISO WM alone pia may On a saving, that en whin the sable hid (Dumas) the nienber foe Bath obtained a onssittee lest year, • the weeds and hens. (Haar, hear.) Lad year when that noble hied made a aeon •1=; he appeal to this hems for the mune of the wino , told us that he nand ge Into that semmittes (on the ens and Forests) M nee 110,0001. a year. Well, if he saves only one-half of that sem. it will u ri rt rest way towards enabling the Ohm age, of the 11 civil M reduce our expenditure by a milks end a half. or I take it that the consolidated fund is esalinally throttles up the means from time to time, of entpreming gensemeary Mots, and reducing oaten. At all events, I Oink k will not be difficult to runes the expendi ture to what h was in 1116. (Heir, hear.) I eta only may, if it were lot le ma to de it, I would do it is this way I would spend not men than to million. for our armaments; I would have them as ellelset es they could be, but they sheen set met MOM than In mil li ons. I would have the remainder kr Eaglet atptelliinst ; I would have 1,600,000 L more for that as than west be 1,600,000 lase for the military end navel expenditure. (Hear, hear.) Thu preserving the total amount as it was In 1146 ; but giving one and • half mi ll ion more to the civil expenditure, and taking it front the military and natal expenditure, Ms may, I am confident, return is the expenditure of MS. (Hest, kat.) And I venture to prods; having bad some previous madame it watritiag the development of public opinion, that nothing lees wM satisfy the people of this country. The feeling in favour of economy has grown mach within the last year. (Hear, hear.) This hems itself bears witness of it. (Hoar hear.) I have seen each ',i deas, of the of opinion on this subject that I have not the least dos t, in a comparatively short time, the ex penditure of this country may be brought back to the expen diture of 1816. (Hear, hear.) I will conalade by merely saying, that i eassider, in advccatlag the redaction of es • tare, laa advocating the removal of those impedi menta to industry which canes disease, pauperism, and aims is the country ; a measure which will tend to make the people contented and happy china, instead of being miserable, dejected, end dhafected, In giving men something to tight for in this country, soeurtM es to reams : and to love, instead of making them the e of our is agitation*. (Hear, hear.) Every step that you take in tleall way, in mitigating the pressure of taxation on the peoaie and showing that a government of this kind may be carried en ea cheaply as the governments in other countries, will fle mon to preserve your institutions; are, and will de UM to preserve yourselves from foreign attache thew ley mount whisk you eta upend in military and naval= dons. (Chute.) Si; I re sew to non the moieties: /Meths set expeeilline of the yevereesat be the yew MI (me. fle. ISW) unarm W 44. SKIM nr ila r e PlCihe theyear tai/ la 1,1010 (yeellmolery ism No.l M meneled 4.1/11141.; Ole Weems et awl, lei sadness Inelag bee waren gdesfidk by sesemlut erepeohileee ofoar media eawbffibmwete. - aul - sys our admire armideb s theig i =etra nisi w letwesay NOE the aid use fir as onion IN sir alradi want Ihe emliseme of We brews that Ow how MOW le me Is melee IMPINIIIIINS I WIL op ef eitre menee. Owhish blab he Cha o n ef Lbw le el huwire eel als=ellee Ismehe weeptiew Mau the Mei eed wi y nd Wefts et the peegie: :.the le lulu It le melba the Ws here Me . el Uwe rehre a l th t ee ell preadeable speed as siassid Nei al Os inn 'dab the kit 14 yam la bleu yawl 111: d a shot Ow We matelweese of the wwidlr, leaser, eel 411.1. et fike MN& Allierjass.) M. esemial the masa. TheCHANCIILLOR of the lIIICILEQI33II said that lady se he did hen the esetelosies some to by the his. member for the West Riding, be mut yet bear his blithnOmy to the fair and temperate meaner In whicittiti THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVEN:IMA FEBRUARY 27, 1849. andestad las argument. (Hear, bear.) He teed disdained tho Oman* of atuolang dither the Moils et* PI gouroneuth ani le pallid esewistesey with that • , he had made tho nosed motion. (Han, bear.) Th ere g eee , is soles bin ben trion, he (the Olmatee e t t h e B e eberrer), felt tW e was ad anal em 4giboa Amy th e genesemeet with Ai& be waseenesete; or Ins unthaws ea the opposite side. Sr beg tnly _shied th at aura/ Janssen to whielt.ho h ak e lleded e lead bee s made with the =ilousearnom of • that or ld rulligg talisman ; t might bet Mseasteed w that la whisk such large majorities of this home had malmously auciorred was quite to wrong ge the his. gualema was disposed to think. He meat eat to take dieslises to the ninon points to whisk the heaserablo had refined, differing, as {boy & eel Wilt asmmsae , or theta. sank bat non Milne ; sad he wished to aid the quo tin eillipasaal Immo, on is the fairest manner. (Hear, bear.) He meld net allude to the mie with which the hon. geminate* bed Woodland his speech,—local taxation,—not quite mein the waned= it had with the conclasie that had been eme ; but he Mega the hon. geedlemee mat admit that away rates sad ether had team of that demi,- tin bad increased, owing to the improvement Mee moat yam had introduced tato our prison dissieftie. oa e ol og a better and fairer moans of providing ho the sesoo d e ,y punbasents et criminals, and in securing the hewe r mow mediation of the unfortunate persona now nutgou to ono. tends lunatic asylums instead of the miserable abodes to which they were formerly consigned. (Hoar, hear.) Passing by that question, with that simple remark, he would address tumult to the main argument of the hon. gentleman. Again he would take no exception to his reference to 1836. The bon. member for Montrose and other persons, on former Gamins, had refereed to 1792 ; and he taw no objection whatever to referring to any prior year, to see what alteration had sines been made. But it that year were to be taken as a standard to which we must necessarily go back, two conditions were necessary first, that the yeas so taken as a marled should be one in which adequate pro vision sou made for the public service and, secondly, that no subsequent change had take* place in the state and con dition of the couatry. The hoe. gentleman said that, by returning to the standard of 1835 in naval and military ex penditure, a reduction of ten millions might be effected ; but it was right that the accurate state of figures should be laid before the house. It had been stated truly that the gross expenditure of 18481'8854,1135,0001; and 0(1835,44,422,0001 ; the difference being little short of ten millions. But the whole of that Meuse was mot attributable to the naval and mfatary essablidemeede of the country. (Beer, bear.) The ban. goodeman bad retard to one item which he must admit teMen extracedimmensmeo—that of the Ksffir war--an un foreseen and unexpected expenditure, which it was impossible to matrol in this country, and which had been mainly in toned almost Wine the necessity for it was known to have arisen here. He had also referred to the sum of 276,0001. for the Leith distress. These ought not to be murdered per simmon items of expenditure, but should be deducted from the general expenditure of the year. The hon. gentleman had referred in milder terms to the increase of expenditure far civil purposes, and had even expressed himself ready to give a larger sum under that head. But there was also a large increase in that expenditure since 1835, principally for the judicial establishment and the Irish constabulary ; and the increase upon the miscellaneous expenditure was 2,372,0001. Hence, deducting from the whole sum of surly 10 millions, that which was of en extraordinary character, and that which was for civil purposes, there was only left an increase on the naval and military expenditure dais, tasted of ten, milions. If, therefore, the hon. gentleman were enabled to carry out his favourite notion of returning to the expenditure of 1835, he would only make a reduction of six Mikes in the naval and military expenditure. Bat he had said that he wished not to object to details ; be wished to meet the hon. gentleman on the point, that it was not consistent with the true and host interests of this country to effect a reduction of the expenditure on the naval sad military establishments to the extent which the hon. gentleman proposed. He hoped that was patting the question fairly to the house ; and he did not think the hon. gentleman himself would complain of the terms in which he proposed to meet his motion. His only anxiety was that the opinion of the holm should be deliberately expressed on the quell. tion of the great reduction proposed. He might safely assume that experience had shown that the provision for the public service in the year 1835 was not adequate. He would first take the navy. In 1835 he became Secretary to the Admiralty,and had devolved cm him the duty of pupating and defending the navy estimates ; and, during the funr yeors be had the honour of holding that situation he had beenexposed to attack after attack, not for extravagance, not for Mussing the estimates beyond what was due, but for a parsimonious disregard of the best interests of the country. (Hear, hear.) The years 1831, 6, and 6, had been pointed out as a reproach to the successive government@ moving the estimates in those years ; and yet the very year which was the lowest of all was now pointed to as the pattern you to which our expenditure ought to be reduced. (Hear) If there was one subject on which they bad heard more than another from all parts of the house, it was the neeingity of having some naval force in the channel. In 1885, there was no naval force in the channel at all ; not a ▪ line-of.hatle ship was there to be found in any part of the channel. The hon. gentleman was wrong in saying that the alarm about Russia induced an increase of the fleet in 1836; the ground was that there was a demand from every station for increased protection to British subjects and British trade abroad. It was not until 1838 or 39, that the hon. members for Birmingham and West Kent had dilated on the danger to which the shores of the country were exposed from the possibility of a Russian invasion. The hon. gentleman had gone through the various mess which had led to the increase of the naval force ofjets country ; and he had certainly made out • remarkably good ease for a larger force, in each year, than had existed in 1835. At one time, there had been the Chines war • at another, the alarming state of Cana ; at • the po ssibility of a rupture with France about Mr. Pdltbaad ; and then, the dispute with the United States than the Oregon boundary. (Hear, hear.) There was not • year in which it had not appeared necessary to have • awe throe than in 1835, if we pretended to mint tin the ineemis of this country, and adequately to protect its com mime abroad. In 1844, the number of men voted for the any was 36,000; but the right hon. geodes= opposite, the. In dice, found, after one short year's avenue, that dist was too kw • point, and In the able statement to which seferencie had been made he had laid down the ground, not as arising from any temporary emergency, or from a par tisan, state of things here or abroad, but as the permanent gioned on which he thought the number of men in 1844 was ea adequate for the due protection of the intereets of the country: and he had then named the force to the number which Mod in the estimates for the present year, 40,000 mai. But the government of 1844 and 5 had evi dently net thought that number quite sufficient ; for when their successors came into office in the autumn of 1846. they found that the number of men borne was considerably above the number that had been voted ; and on the Ist January, 1847, the anther born* was actu a lly 4,000 more than the timber that had been voted. Lest year they had reduced the number 4,000, thus bringing it down to the number voted. Having take. • vote for 43,000, they had endow mired to justly by their vote the number that it had been found naminey to maintain. This year the number proposed to he voted was 40,000-8,000 lees than had before been thought messazy. Now, what were the reasons which had led to the image ia 1845, which were true then, and were no lose so sow In the eastern hemisphere a lam; field had been need be the employment of our naval hue which did sot exist in 1331, At that time the trade to China was cor ed en _poiesbally by the Bast India Company. (Hear, he=Hee firalreid, too, had sines been added to the pagemigne of the grown. (Hear, hear.) And, so hr hen be. loath bring • perfect antidote to all necessity kir goologthe to on sonummos abroad, the more we extended ma abeam aad our eammerce, and the more the world was empled with British neestry, the larger uses the demand mods, and which mast be met, for protection to British it • and mama, in whatever part of the world it was mein en, by means of our navel tomes . (Hear, hear.) Thee same raismat applied to the increase of the military fora of the . It was not asee-eary for the of koala lows peaddion of Canada, whin tg i ri s t e . Mbrbadlnly doesibrel as the most contented pan. a the thee of the gide ; it was not for the purpose of keeping down eves the pepulation of New Zealand, or for the peolostise of the seethes against the warlike attacks whisk had beam Rada apes the., and with some difficulty repelled, dada the Met two yews. And when the has. W Aineded the deed% enjoyed by the pope- Tett c ali f e th amen is babe those fields open to them, whore they might ebiafs subtheme* so easily, it had seemed to bin that dee mesa less not ill laid out, even for the purposes ofthieaery ► V,sytheeextendingtheprotecting arta of the MIK ostaary, they provided certain - fields - for British industry and enterprise, to become, in future yearn, the gust mums of the supply of raw material to this country, aid the 'neat seams of demand for its suaufacetired pro dun (Hoer, bear.) Bat, since 1835, another great change bad taken dose in the creation of the steam navy. In that nee ors hardly possessed more than two or three steam. moth; no staluievemel had crossed the Athens_ and mil could de se. (Hear. beer.) Since that time. no emu esti& bad beat written to prove that it was impodde= be Imisagat of the W-° development whisk bad been ghee to steam as applied to navigation ; and it had been emenry, looking only to what other powers had done ' and with a view to our own most ef fi cient protection, to have am immense steam navy. He apprehended these were points en which it was scarcely necessary to ask for the approval of the homes. Far this purpose • large expenditure had mess seribdaase immunal, tooth in the article of acres and in the g ma melds, of the steam navy. In the article of Num • large imam had become undoubtedly necessary, swag te tbs. having been allowed to fall very low. The aseamithes distinctly stated in their re port that the vote for stirs. dilated essentially from other votes, inasmuch as the ant estimate applied not to the consumption of the ensuing year, but bad reference to a more distant period of time ; hero the offset of undue reduction was not wholly percep- Mitio until ism years after it had begun to be made. Now In that raped he did not find that an_y wasteful pur. chase of WM181144 Ma attributed to any department to any year. Though Ma port of the naval service, ye t eat at stem- padost gavial between the different parts of the world and this caselry was included in the navy estimates. He did not With thee was a commercial or manufacturing Illailber in that home who would object to the improved olennetnionise between Ude country and America and the Bad nyodi for if a perms in the amnia ban l ked se, more than others by that cm amisatiee they were them whose transactions with distant part of the world were facilitated by rapid istargoeuse. (Haig, hear.) Well, then, taking these throe heads, game, Whinge, sad the packet service, the therms um them was no lass than 300,9001. between 1835 and 1848. Upon two of these heads he believed that a undo rabbi reduction might be made now; he believed that the which had been necessary to bring it to this p o i n t steam navy had attained its maximum and that the buildings would not be required. There would be no name of ex =l7me Ms him hea d— quits_the mintrary. Were the 4 . 81lit AillinkoHY illeniadfal of this in the estimates which they laid hiders the h ? these twe heeds of stern and beading, the was no less than 638,000 f. If, thirds's, he alone that the image of men wan Jolla bg the eirenmetanoss of the country, at tire time whoa it meg psegesed. If be had *hewn that the hi .erased eagehditlmr eel *me and buildings had been jusei fled by the nammity Of Mating a steam navy, whilst at the same time he had shows that it was not main tain that large expenditure in future — (hear), he thought he had given an answer to the statements of the has. gentleman. He must say that to urge any Isms re daction of the army, any reduction larger than that wid th they made, world met be doing justice to that service. He be lieved that In no other part of the world had any army per formed sash minis, for their country in time of peace as the !shish annigisehimed for its country. (Hear, hear.) The seldkes of.. ether country were ex p osed to such vicissitudes exeX wai perhaps that portion of the French service which was em in Algeria. In Germany and Hurls the soldier 'pest time In his own country. (M ar, heir.) Wes such the cue with the soldiers of England ? On the contrary from the hosts of Canada to the tropics of the West Indies and the burning plains of the East Indies he passed from one excises of climate to another—Led performed his duty equally in all. (Cheers ) He thought it would be cruel to be hard on such a man as that. (Hear, hear.) The araument of the right hon. gentleman (Sir R. Peel), in 1845, was, that with the force heretofore maintained it was impossible to fres the soldier from exposure to such excessive labour ; that with the num ber of men then maintained, it was impossible to give him those five years at home which were his due. The average period which the British soldier was allowed for the five years between 1834 and 1839, was only four years and one month, instead of five years. It was necessary, there fore, to increase the number of the army, in order to afford the soldier that time which was thourht neceesrry to recruit his strength after the hardships to which he was exposed in the colonial service. (Hear, hear.) That addition to the army was made, and the military authorities were thus enabled to carry out the I regulation which allowed him five years at home—iodised, he was allowed rather more. At present there were 11 regi ments at home with more than five years' service, and there was only one regiment in the colonies which served for somewhat more then 10 years' service. Though the period of service was nominally 16 years, yet the re giment* were kept abroad for 18, 19, 20, and 22 years, and in one instance for 26 years. (Hear, hear.) Who wa• the rigid economist fa that house who would say that that was a fair principle ? Would he say it was worth while for the sake of economy to permit the waste and ex penditure of life on the part of the British soldier occasioned by it? Even in point of economy he thought it would be a waste to continue it. (Hear.) There were now four regi. MM.) in India which had served for more than 10 years. But, in consequence of the increase which had taken place, they were able to bring the s ystem of rotation into e ff ect. They could now, however, a ff ord to make the reduction which he proposed to make without at ell infringing on the due rota tion of the service, which was so fair and so well due to the British soldier, whilst at the same time they kept on foot, as was the duty of the government to do, • force suffi cient to meet the present requirements of the country. The hon. gentleman referred to the events of the last year. He concurred with the hon. gentleman in thinking that the great mars of the population of the nation were well affected to the crown and institutions of the country. (Hear, hear.) He believed that the spectacle displayed by this country last year was one of the brightest moments in British history. (Hear, hear.) But when the hon. gentleman went on to my that it was not to be expected, whilst those great revolutions on the continent to which he referred took place, that this country would have re mined wholly tranquil, and without attempt at distur bance that very circumstance half proved that it was of essential service to the country that there should be that amount of military foree which would be requisite to put down those agitators and disturbers of the public peace who might have endangered life and propent to a consider able extent if they had not been restrained. The hon. gen tleman had been temperate upon his remarks on this point, but he bad seen elsewhere--he had seen remarks of the Liverpool Financial Reform Association which were not so temperate in their tone. He had seen a statement of that body to the effect that there was no pretence for keeping this army up but to pro vide for the younger sons of the British aristocracy. (Hear, hear.) He did not know when this new light broke in upon the people of Liverpool, (bear, hear,) because at the time of the excitement in this country the people of Liverpool had made applications month after month, for additional forces to protect life and property in that town. (" Hear, hear" and laughter.) Regiment after regiment was sent at their request, and even an encampment was formed in the outskirts of the town. (Hear, hear.) A petition had been sent up praying for the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. (" Hear, hear," and laughter.) Now he did not think it was fair, he did not think it was just, he had almost said it wu nothonest, in those gentlemen who so largely benefited by what they had—and who asked for more—(laughter)—to turn round new and say that the only use of the British army was to feed the younger sons of the English eristocrasy. The next source of increase was a con siderable one—that of the ordnance service. Upon that they did not even propose to make any reduction, because be believed it necessary to maintain in full vigour that branch of the puldie service. It was one most expensive and difficult to raise in the first instance. He believed that every man of judgment who referred to the events of India, must admit that it was most disgraceful to this country, which was first in the artsof wares well asof civilisation, that they had never gone into action in which they were not over matched in artillery. (Hear.) The priacipal increase of expenditure was occasioned not by the increase of force merely, but in consequence of these awes in guns of both Imo and mull calibre, which improvements of recent date had rendered necessary. It was notorious that in cannon and in small arms great changes had recently taken place, and it would be cruel and unfair to send British soldiers into action without putting into their hands the best and most perfect weapons whirl modern science could invent. (Hear.) When the changes which rendered the increase in the ordnance department necessary were completed, they would be able to make • large reduction in the ordnance ' estimates. The feeling which was so prevalent 18 mouths ago respecting an invader created the necessity for different works In their dockyerch. But though he did not participate in that alarm to the extent which some persons did, he still thought that they would be neglecting their duty if they did not take measures to give increased protection and secu rity to their navel establishments. (Hear, hear.) Then the government had been greased at various times to rinks provi sion for improving the moral condlebn of the British soldier. Well, better barrack accommodation was provided, and there were separate Wracks for married men. (Hear, hear.) These were great and useful objects, but they could not be obtained without additional expense. (Hear.) The hon. gen tleman alluded to the increase in the miscellaneous estimates. There was • considerable increase in these estimates. That increase had taken place in items which had been pressed on the govemmeat by the House of Commons. (Hear, hear.) Since 1886, perfectly new charges had been put upon the miscellaneous estimates to the amount of 690,0001. The ordinary increase from year to year had been 1,000,0001. But as four article, alone—the transfer of county rates, the increased vote for education, the increased expenses on ac went of convicts, and the increased expense of printing—the MCMIMI of expenditure amounted to nearly 700,0001. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman said that there was nothing in the pre sent state of the world to lead them to suppose that there was any likelihood of • disturbance of that peace which they at present enjoyed. He very much concurred with the hon. gentleman in that. (Hear.) No man could have foreseen what would be the effect of those effervescing spirits in France. Would they have been_justified at such a time in redueing the army and navy ? The noble lord, at the head of the government, declared he was net prepared to strike off one man. The events which had afterwards taken phoe last year justified the government. But they were in a different position now. It was admitted that in many parts of the cont rent those who were the leaden of the movement had not meek nuoa r ti o s:Fielethenmelves. (Hear.) They found that revolution he • losing concern. (Hear.) TjLeirlrest and solikbonr had shown that she was y disposed. by maldm a mnsiderable reduction both her arm gad navy. (Ham, hear.) lie believed that the conduit OM mils friend onMihntad very much to the pone of Thus hoof Mon pins& pamiees had cooled, end pestlmoa to am what was the value and cost of revoked* and war. The chances of maintaining peace were therefore mush greater now than this time lest year. He behaved in like meaner that there was less dagger at home, Imam flea law imendladm who media ontalto the perodetion of tNmantry tellawiso disturbance bad it im pala& to do so. (Hear.) The people were employed ; mills were at work throughout the an dhtricts. (Hear, hear.) He was surprised that the hoe. gentleman had not made a single allusion to the sister c many, because the apprehensions of disturbance in that country were not inconsiderable, and it was not the fault of certain parties them that the disturbance had not taken place. (Hear.) Kr. COBDEN said he had made allusion to Ireland. (Hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—In that country large *umbers had assembled together for purposes which could not be mistaken, for they were openly mowed ; his conviction was that nothing but the presence of a large military force prevented the outbreak of an insurrection which certain parties had been cool and wicked enough to attempt to provcke, and it was no fault of theirs that the insurrection did not come to a differentosult. (Hear.) Them was but little risk of an insurrection now in that country. That being the case, the government had felt it to be in their power to propose a considerable reduction both in the army and in the navy. He would now refer to the state of affairs in India, where the war which prevailed had caused a demand upon this country, which had been met by studio; three regiments. Those regiments had been taken off the British establishment, and had therefore ceased to be a charge upon this country. The actual reduction of numben was 7,000, while three regiments had been taken off the charge The army last year stood at 113,000: it was reduced by 10,000, leaving 103,000; rather more than the number in 1845, and rather lees than the number to which the army was raised in 1846. In 1845 the number was 300000; in 1846, 108,000. Last year the government wire enabled to effect a considerable reduction in the estimates, without making any reduction of forgo. He wished now to state to the house the amount of the reductions which were secompliiked last year without any redaction of force and of the reductions which, as appeared in the esti mates already on the table of the house, had been made partly' by a reduction offeror, partly by a reduction of stores, and by other means which ha need not detail. The reduc tions effected last year, in the course of the session, amounted to 828,6001. ; the reduction in the estimates of this year, as compared, not with the Mend estimates of this year, but with the reduced estimates voted at the end of the session, were, in the navy, 710,8564. ; In the army, 378,8244. ; MOH, arduous, 387,8731. ; making a total redaction In the naval and military expenditure of 1,447,3631. He did not antici pate any great reduction in the miscellaneous expenditure, on account (as was understood) of the large foreign expendi ture ; bat, taking the reductions made last year, and those made in the estimates wbieh had been laid on the table orate house, it appeared that the entire reduction already amounted to 2,276,8631. (Hear, hear.) The honourable gen tleman had referred to the charges for the collection of revenue, and expenses of that description. The government had net been unmindful of that subject ; they had not been induced, for the sake of providing patronage for his noble friend, or any other member of the government, to keep up any offices which wera unnecessary. Last year they put down the office of Paymaster of Exchequer-bills and that of Paymaster of the Civil Services, consolidating them with the office of Paymaster-General, and thus effecting a saving of ' salaries to the amount of 18,0001. The other day he had an nounced the cinsolidation of the b suds of Stamps and Excise. There would thus be effecied an immediate reduc tion of expenditure to the extent of from 8,0001. to 9,0001. ; and they might expect a further reduction to the same amount. In like manner the government had appointed • commission to inquire into the collection of the customs. In spite of the anticipations of his hen. friend, he did not think that any large saving could be effected in the collection of that branch of the revenue. But he found that even in their first report, a draft of which he had seen that day, the commissioner, had reported a reduction, in round numbers, of 60,0001. He did not think such reductions inconsider able in dealing with such a matter. When the hon. gentle man talked of the extravagant expense of collecting the revenue of this country, he (the Chancellor of the Exche quer) must , beg to tell him he was entirely mistaken on that point. In Emend the charge for the collection of the customs was under 6 per cent. ; in that neighbouring country which had the advantage of such admirable ac counts, and of the services of • director general, the charge for the collection of the customs was between 12 and 13 per cent., just twice what it was here. (Hear, hear.) The charge tor the collection of the whole revenue of this coun try was about 7 per cent. ; in France, it was 11i per cent. ; and in another neighbouring country, which had th advan tage of institutions more democratic than thou which pre ailed here—he referred to Belgium—the expense of collecting the revenue was no less than 43 per cent. ( Hear, hear.) Now, the hon. gentleman had alluded to the pressure of taxation in this country. The question thus raised was one of those which it was very difficult to meet with proof'. The general assertion made was one which it was very easy to utter, but he suspected that even the hon. gentleman if called upon to prove his position, might find it very di fficult to do so. (Hear, hear.) It was his (the Chancellor of the Exche quer's) firm conviction that, taking the income, of the individuals in France, and comparing them with the incomes of the individuals in this country, his belief was that taxation bore a much lees pro portion to the incomes of the individuals in this country than it did to the incomes of the individuals in France. He was at • lose to understand on what ground it was asserted now almost for the first time in all those associations throughout the coun try, and, as they had been told that night, in the organs of public opinion, that the pressure of taxation was so very rayons. Why, in the last 28 years there had been taxes repealed or reduced to the amount of nearly 20,000,0001. ; there had been imposed taxes to the amount of 9,800,000/. ; the country had in that period been relieved to the extent of 9,899,0001., or very nearly 10,000,000 k, from one description of taxation or another. And the change thus made was, he repeated, more material than it would appear to be from simply considering the amount, because, whereas taxes hsd been imposed upon property in one shape or other, they had been taken off those uncles which the people of this country constantly consumed, and the raw materials from whicn many of those articles were manufactured. He entirely ap proved of that change. Let it not be thought that he was finding fault with it in the slightest degree. (Hear, hear.) He entirely agreed with his hon. friend, for example, that the absence of any duty on corn lest year was essential in the then state of the country. Hon. gentlemen might remem ber, without requiring him to enter into any details as to the pest, that when he asked them to renew the income tax for three year?, he expressed a hope and an expectation that, at aay rate, in those three years, the income tax being renewed and the other taxes maintained, the income of the country would mere than equal its expenditure. He said se with some reserve in the early part of the session, because as he thought hen. gentlemen would readily admit, things were so uncertain lost year that no men could very well answer for what would happen six weeks or a month from the time when he was speaking. To wards the close of the session, however, he renewed this assertion with greater confidence. He then said that he be lieved the expenditure would be kept fairly within the limits of the income; and he was happy to state that his experi ence during the time which had since elapsed had full borne out his anticipations. The period to which his anticipation had reference ' extended up to April; the experience which th ey had had ceased on the 6th of January, but it was no very extravagant supposition that the income of the current quarter would not be below that of the corresponding quarter of last year. Now, he said, in I tie month of August, that he anticipated that the ordinary revenue would be 61,660,0001. ; that the old stores and appropriations in aid would produce 600,0001., and the China money 80,0001., making the income 62,130,000. Hon. gentlemen would see, on referring to the balance-sheet of last year, that what was there called the ordinary income, W.ll 62,422,3381., and that what were called miscellaneous receipts, which formed the last three items, amounted altogether to 118,0001., making the income 62,640,9941., instead of 52,130,0001. He had estimated that 80,0001. would be received from. China money ; the amount actually received was 84,0001., while the amount received for stores (as was understood) was, dunag the three quarters of a year, 308,0001. Throwing out of account the amount received from China money before April last, which it was net fair to reckon this year, the income of the year up to January was 52,933,6931. Tterefore, his estimate up to April having been 62,130,0001., there was about 800,0001, more than he had anticipated. The expenditure had been estimated by him last session at 62,422,0001. It had, in fact, been rather more. Excluding the Kaffir war, the naval excess, and the vote on account of Irish distress, which, as he had stated to the house, he did not reckon as ordinary expenditures, excluding those three items, which amounted to 1,820,000 k, the expenditures was 52,563,3481. Therefore, after deduct ing the extraordinary receipt from China, before April, and the extraordinary expenditure to which he had just referred, the income up to the 6th of January, 1849, was 62,933,6931., and the expenditure, 62,683,3481.; the difference between expenditure and income being, he was happy to say, a sur plus of 370,0001. (Cheers.) _ - An fox. MEXBIR &skid what wee the amount of the duties on earn ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the amount received on account of corn was about 780,0001 ; but the customs revenue for the year ending Jan. 6, exclu sive of corn, was higher than the income which be had ex pected to receive from the customs in the year ending April, 1849. (Hear, bear) Therefore, the statement laid before the house was most satisfactory. Totally excluding corn, the customs revenue up to January exceeded what he had anti cipated up to April ; and if the revenue in the present quarter was as good ea it was in the corresponding quarter of last year, excluding corn, it would exceed his esumate of last year. He must fairly say that he dissented from the princi ple which the hon. gentleman had laid down, a to the making of the whole financial statement at that period. He did not feel oompstent to do so ; but this much he did Mate— and be thought the statement would be satisfactory— it was notorious that he would loss some biome in the course of this year by the cemation of the corn duties. It was equally tens that he would loos that extraordinary source of income of which he had availed himself last year, namely, appropriations in aid ; and he was sorry to say that all receipts from China money had come to an end. But, nevertheless, making full allowance for the whole, and mere than the whole, of what he should lose in those re spects, reckoning that he would lose 780,0001. on corn (though, la all probability, there would be some receipt from that article), slowing for 600,0001. which he could not expect to receive again from appropriations in aid, aced further allowing for the absence of 80,0001. from China money, the loss of income from all them sources could not, at the utmost, exceed 1,360,0001. He had already stated that the reductions in the estimates of this year, as compared with those of lot year, was 1,447,0001. • a sum which exceeded any possible loss of revenue. Without, therefore, going into details, he did not think it unreasonable to expect that the Income of this year would be greater than that of last; and unless be was disap pointed in that expectation, the expenditure would clearly be wilds the income. He had, he hoped, convinced the house of two things—firat, that it would not be safe or wise to reduce the expenditure at once or immediately to the amount which the hon gentleman proposed ; and se condly,thatthe government kaiTnot been unmindful of the ne- enmity of effecting ell those reductions which they thought could be effected con.istently with the real interests of the country, and the real welfare of all its industrial re sources. Under these circumstances, he trusted that the house would express a decided opinion upon the question which had been submitted to it. Mr. J. O'CONNELL expressed his surprise that no more distinct reference had been made to the ewe of Ireland in connexion with this subject, when it was perfectly clew that Ireland had much to do with the financial question now exciting such vivid attention in all quarters. He had no hesitation in declaring his conviction, for instance, that had anything like justice been done to that country, two-thirds of the enormous outlay there for army, constabulary, and political prosecutions, would have been saved. Sir D. L. EVANS said that as several ri [(renew had been rather personally made by the hon. member to the military and naval services, he begged to !say a few words on the subject. The hon. gentleman, as bad been shown by the right hon. baronet, had in his comparative statements made • slight confusion between ten millions sterling and six millions ; but still, in his general proposition as to the expe diency of decided reforms tn our expenditure, there could be no doubt the hon. gentleman was much in the right, end it was earnestly to be hoped that material reductions would be effected. The hon. gentleman might, with great advantage to his cause, avoid the personalities which he and those who acted with him, thought proper to indulge in with respect to the army and navy, not so much on this occasion, indeed, as on other occasions and elsewhere. Mr. HUME expressed his deep regret that the honourable and gallant gentleman should seek to infuse bitterness of feeling and personalities into a discussion of such grave im , d which, by the previous speakers_, bad been con ed w ith an ed such courteous moderation. The increase of our naval and military expenditure was truly stated to' have been the work of parliament itself. Yes, it vas the constitution of that house which lay at the bottom of the mischief, occasioning the creation of a number of officers in the army, navy, and ordnance infinitely greater than the most efficient maintenance of these Berrien, could require. Moot assuredly, mem. ben of parliament would h ate scu t t u ir property as they had dealt with the national p ft ,, t -2 Bible for wfwweiorereanth.yeatontkusrusetbutoanoolathi:liarergriti,:csadireeao.ormwedoWnsle:tak4;ll.6—..-. ments of the army and navy without feeling a aces r,frth_ ri tb Tfi t Li t , b e e v y er et w poo ef b o rb re l b F ; e ina P s t n n a b eisd p a bble th ß i y o lf g f i r em t tb h A e b esocia l : ". t esge ios o w Y zi association's papers was strong, let those who qurren s 4, l 7 6 it contradict the facts and figures contained in the published mem— by the Resonation, and never mind the He Snit e had only one or two observations to m a k e speech of the right hon. gentleman the C 64 of the Exchequer. He was very sorry is from that minister that the greatest efforts the govensiggst— was disposed to make would only just b r i ng the z • — g m , within the income of the country. The papers now in Ai hands of hon. members rhowed a deficiency in the ordisare revenue of 800,0001. on the current ye ar , t h e d efici year being 2,500,0001. The house was now told thutthei s wr to be an equalisation of the receipts and the expeoditen; ay the risht hon. gent/enlist had called for the congnetstosZ of the house on his having achieved so mush as (1 7,,, Hems's) bon, friend, the member for the West Riding, n i g said very truly that the people would be direatirfied with** proceedings of the government. But the Chancellor of tells. chequer had also stated that great reductions had bean mark in the taxes. The only observation which that sssetti es called :or was that, although taxes might be altered is this amount, they still bore heavily on the labouring claims, mg always had a tendency to depress consumption. The Chia cello!) had asserted that what he proposed to effect in rppea to reducing the establishments ought to satisfy the and further, that they ought to be satisfied with what been done since 1837 in reducing taxes upon theist's's:is le t life, and the raw materials of the manufacture,. What is m the state of the case with respect to the revenue and exm. dimes since the y e a r 1837 ? I n th a t year t h e revenue wes 50,600,0001. ; in 1838, 61,300,000/ ; in 1839, 51,900,0001 .; in 1810, 61,800,0001. ; in 1841. 52,300,0001,; in 184 g, 51,200,0001. ; in 1843, 66,900,0001, ; in 1844, 58,400,0001.; and in 1845, 57,600,0001. Was this the way in Willa the people wire to be satisfied ? Beery year the revenue drum from their pockcts increasing, and their burthens Weans heavier, and yet the Chancellor had told them ti night they ought to be satisfied. He (Mr. Rs m ) would tall the Chancellor that the country would am be satisfied ; the people wanted relief from their be. theme, and the mere shifting of taxation would am satisfy them. The Chancellor bad asked wherein t h e pressure was so heavy, and had slanted that Bd. glum and France were heavily taxed, and that the people of England were better able to pay their taxes time those nations were. He would tell the Chancellor in No g that his astertion, even if true, was no excuse for takii one shilling more from the people than was required for aim service of the country—and there was much more lend then the real wants of the nation required. The cemednie of 1848 had pressed that necessity on the home in Mel ee. port, but with very little effect. The expenditure bed,* gone on, and the Chancellor now told the country th i s ih r were to expect little relief. All he could promise Me. that no new debt should be incurred, but there .rsemo n , duction In the expenditure or the taxation. 'am jo► meat most assuredly would not he satisfactory to the tar tion. There would he meetings held throughout the eneany, and sorely would they regret to hear such a statements. the givernmect. He wanted to know what were then,- eumstanees which rendered so much larger an amount if expenditure necessary now than was required in 1 , 35. Ti e hon. and gallant of fi cer (Uinta' Bra ns ) had welted Mt hon. friend made a mistake, and that the addition/ expos ditare for the establishments of the country was 6,000,000/ and not 10,000,0001., since the year 1835. But if the born, and gallant officer looked at the revenue 'nouns, he wend find that the expenditure of 1835 was 44,000,0001., whiln that of last year was nearly 54,000,000/. So that there wit no mistake in his hon. friend's statement. The mistake lay the other way. His hon. friend called for redone of the establishments, but not an instantaneous redueties, He only called on the government to follow the precede* that already existed. The hon. gentleman then promoted to cite various parliamentary precedents for the course an proposed, and be thought the proposition before it nettle meet with the approbation end support of that house. So k, from his hon. friend having a weak cue, he had made oat a very strong one, and his arguments were similar to than used by Mr. Pitt, in Lis speech on the permanent pin establishment of 1792. Mr. HERRIES called the attention of the horse to what was the real proposition before them as it bad been submitted by the hon. member for the West Riding, which was not es represented by the hon. member who had just rat don, but was that, before going into committee, the house should at once determine to reduce the national expenditure tea millions sterling. The right hon. gentleman the Chatted for of the Exchequer had complimented the bon member for the West Riding upon the moderation and forbearance with which he had introduced this motion ; but better be violist in that house and decorous where inflammatory language might produce ill effects. (Loud protectionist cheers, echoed from the ministerial benches.) He could not but think that the conduct of the government last session had materially assisted in promoting that spirit of agitation the consequence of which they now telt. If the estimates had ben debated as they ought to have been last year in that house, salted not been withdrawn from their consideration by the appoint ment of a committee, which committee refused to entertain the question of their policy, in al: probability such an espls nation wou'd have been afforded by the ministers of tits crown u wou ' d have been perfectly ntisfactery both to the house andPo the country. (Hear, hear.) He thought, therefore, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had some cause to blame himself for that agitation which in the speech he had just made he had done great service in arresting. Be ' (Mr. Herrin) was of opinion that there were solid and good reasons for the exchequer being in the state in whin they now found it, and that there were hope! of effecting some not immaterial reductions. He would now trouble the house with a brief statement of the comparative program of the expenditure and revenue in France and England, en mencing with the year 1820, when the armies of oceupatin had been withdrawn, when affairs in Franee might be raid to have settled down into their normal state, and the Freud budget was placed on a footing on which it might be expected to remain. In the year 1820 their buten was 35,000,0001. ; 1821, 35,208,0001; 1822, 38,000,000/ From the . year 1822 until 1830 they seemed to have coin ducted their affairs with great regard to economy. Dating the whole of that period, which was the legitimist period, with the single exception of the year 1823, when a very advised expedition was made in Spain, which cat OM 8,000,000/, their expenditure continued to avings 38,400,0001.—sometimes a little over and at others a less. In 1830, as they all knew, a very considerable shags took place—a revolution—(all revolutions were expensive, end those who promoted them should tell the people so)-0, awed. (Protectionist cheers.) In the happy year of the re. volution the expenditure was raised to 60,600 - 0001. Is 1831, it was 44,000,0001. It then went on 44,000,000/, 41,000,0004 40,000,0001., 41,000,0001., 42,000,0001., 44,000,000/ Is 1841, it was 48,000,0001. • in 1642, 64,000,0001 ; in 1846, 62,000,0001. • is 1844, 55:000,000/ ; in 1847, 60,000,0004; in 1848, 72:000,0001. It was remarkable to observe how Lite . the pyi = became in proportion u poplin plies . (Cheers from the protechociels) nut could not pas over this portion of the ons patison without adverting to the dogma which kid been propounded to the worth people of Manchester, to the effect that the beet asieguard fora country against war, 1* cause it was a safeguard against the expenditure which led is war, was an extremely minute subdivision of property. Tbs argument of course was, that by such a subdivision every en wu made to feel the effect W . expenditure in his own pernet, and that the consequence would be to prevent war. Re j es u t t ed re te . h an onse d to , h r o em we em ve he r, r to tha loo t k it w at as th d e uri a ng tati th m e e p e r t ogr he had ma such a subdivision of proprty that the French espenditare had so much increased. When the hon. gentleman west again to Manchester with the view of inducing the people to to recommend to them a democratic,/ in the place of a no' redaction agitate E ither r inst 'mythical form of government, he should at least tenth's tb of e thr expli b i l d e i n ture t " o d e of taxes , t f ax brft es b o y r grth.a this truth, that if they preferred democracy, they mast pet their hands deep into tueir pockets to support it. lir. RIIME.—Look at America. Mr. HERRIES continued.—He could not compare the American government with the English, because it wee ill possible to tell what the expenses of a government was when every independent state had an exposit. tare of its own to bear. He was not gein however, to defend extravagance or any unnecessary ea. psnditure ; but be was going to show that we had bent more careful than our continental neighbours, and thattbers had been nothing like a sudden passage in our expoiclibm from 38,000,0001. to 72,000,0001, as there had been * France. (Hear, hear.) He found that the income of this country from 1820 to 1825 was 66,000,0001., just a bout what it was at present. Daring the next five years, from 1825 0 1830, it was 64,000,0001. From 1830 to 1840 it avenged 47,000,0001. The expenditure of these years from 1830 is 1840 was the least from the year 1820 down to the postai time; but it was one of these years which had been closes by the hon. gentleman as the standard to which the preset , expenditure was to be reduced. (Hear, hear.) During the next five years, from 1840 to 1845, the expenditure nee $ 49,000,0001.; and last year it was 64,100,0001. The malt of the comparison, then, which ho had instituted bete?* France and England for the last 28 years was that in *2 latter the expenditure was nearly the same now as it Wil years ago, namely, 56,000,0001. ; whilst in France it had then from 35,000,0001. in 1820, to 72,000,0001. in 18* (Cheers.) In reviewing this period of our history, ther + was another topic worthy of consideration, and that wits the amount of taxes which had been repealed of late yea'' (Hear, hear.) Ile found that Once the year 1814 taxes had s be 3 7 94, r ooo edu i ce . d A o g r ana en t tire tha ly t, moved, t l O o t f h n e ew am tu oun es t w o f been created, so that there was a total diminution in d* annual taxation within the last 36 years of no lea that 39,000,0001. (Hear, hear.) This was a result of whka England had good reason to be proud, for no other mutt/ in the world could exhibit anything like a comp*** with such a satisfactory statement. It should opersieto" . over, as • lesson upon those out of doors, who woe clamorous for a substitution of direct for indirect taxation; and should show to them the advantages of a mixed system m taxation. (Hear, hear.) Now, he must say that the motion of the hen. gentleman the member for the West Make b la been exceedingly ill supported. They had all heard of it fall singe, and that was to have been the night when the was to be fought. How had it been fought (Cheers 1 " counter cheers.) Why, the hon. gentleman was pinfeg i j abandoned, apparently by all his friends. /Cheers ironical laughter. Wh y, nobody rose to second . CO' I O newed laughter. The right hon. gentleman the C' cellor of the xchequer had certainly manta slated the motion. He (Mr. Henries)/ the Apt hon. gentleman had resisted it more still he had resisted it, and that was wwwww