The Express. — London, England, 1849-03-02 00:00:00

localities the machinery of the church restaged such as it was 45 or 60 years ago. It was with a view of improving the orgsnisaties medal tarrying into sot the pr i nciple sad practice of the perssidel system, to enable the church to die. charge the duties the peshesed to diedemge, art es Meese what in fact she prelims& te be—the atehl shed ohm* of the country, that he was &bent te mem he the emmbeies of which he bad gives sides. ZS meld haw atessilme briefly to the facts of the ewe, whisk meld shme beyond dispute, bow truly teredshe ft wee that the perwhial system could be audestiste effect arida the wend alai sides. Now was it possible, that in a math wasisting of 100,000 seals. a vicarer rester, as the bead, any part of the systm weld be minded cot. (Cheers.) I..et Meantime as half-warn of these downy 000 populated Timm w Diezylebase, esile e l s e 1104411 Pile H =5: AN 111,000 ; lissewher, SWIM ; St. Paacree, 140,000; awn moue emi r Illeenene populations ; but ft would be etweved that slime every one of thee , i ashes Ise had tried untamed mgmbillems he 'zee thus of may of the baba eginde& Hew, tbeh was t peedble that the parochial system amid be elieweed amidst popelations se dame and sovaried dieragese sad posi tion ? He would mean that the evil be emplaned of was twofold—first, in respect of the peareebil omen itself ; soundly, is respect to the Wieder doggy who offielaud under the rater ea visa in suck dardrirra. What did the parochial system regain ? Certainly Mat the mishit et the head of the wish should bar* the people with whose spiritual he was gigged, sad he known by them—(howt hear)—that there should be • con - stmt interchan ge of good offices between this—that he ahead be able to ahabeister to them in all the IBM ad seethes of the desteb—that be should toka miasma aid espodaMsdesee grebe di.uict generally, and minister, set eddy le themisiinal, bat to the racial and moral wants el hi p speekhismare—(hear, hear)—that be should, in gamy be waded administer to their secular as well as theirn om atemesitise, for in nothing sou the pa eashial whom duly carried out, mow valuable or mine seadaelw M the baguets of religion than in 'mai. the aim le easiest sad advise the people is the hoot el their acciesity. (Hear, hear.) As it was, the minister Is the large, densely peop'ed parishes we. not known to we twentieth of those who were committed to his charge. speaking, the minister was only Itnelet = S % appeared in the vestry on litigated game NNW ea In the pulpit—for all papaws of the parochial agellie be was powerless. And those who differed with him mast admit that, seder the present distribilea, the pa nda' Iffeellm was thfrootabir anpossible. He would lam the peat midi of M. Panora, as forming a geed am magi of tieembeie es matey—wherever large popsletiens wen brought•agelher is me parish. The population a St. Pan ora seen mime et 140,000 —• populatioa greater than that of the while wenty of Westmoreiand. of Bedfordshire, WS of Heinen& The population of Westmoreland was only 66,000. of Dediedshire 109,000, and of He efeed 114,000. (Hear.) And there were yet many acme in St. Pas-' ergs net sweeed wide buses sow, bat whish, if London cot.- timid te sand he Sidle se npidly as it had done of late, We be de in war few yam , sad which would then add eseehalt, eg pedals Amble as steak to the popi6ation as it us pmegag maimed. Awarding to the received computation abide seimmeddism was nquized in every district for ou tfield el the whale population ; and aceordie c to that tele Ht. ?Mem 'head sew have accommodation for 47,000. Ae t r m i 'lewever, there were 14 churches and chapels in that providing aesommodation for only 17,000. He sbald observe that the estimate he was new taking referred be the sendition in which St. Pancras wee two or three years ege t Mohr* Dr. Dale, the present vicar, introduced his re hash (dear, hear.) However, it afforded • good mom piiittliss of the state of those lugely-populated paddies in gesetil. But in mein of the reforms which have bees elheted, and which, notwithstanding the great benefit which bad resulted, sad lett the perish in a most imp erect state, ha wished it to be observed that they had been so effected only by the applicati in of the same primiple which he now proposed to make universal. (Heara) As he bad said previous to the lamina-tin of thew reforms. St. Paaciao provided church aceestmodation fcr only 17,000 pause. The number of clergymen in the i wish, for all menial and district duty, ,mounted to 18 ; consequently, if the population were equally divided, each clergyman would have had the charge 1.000 souls. But the distribution was by so means equal and 'it 'did so happen that 12 of them clergymen had the charge a 120,000 souls, or 10,000 each. It was impossible too highly to praise the conscientious and self-denying efforts of Dr, Dale, the vicar of St. Pence's. When that reverend gentleman was ;first installed, feeling the vast importance of the subject, he determined to me all his power to subdivide the parish —an object in carrying . out which be was considerably thwarted and oxperrenced numerous difficultly,. He, how• ever, effected it by estahlishing new districts, but in such proportions that be found himself obliged to assign to one clergyman a population of 8,000, to another 12,000, to an. wile 9,000, to another 7,000. And at this moment, after ell Dr. Dale's exertions, a vast portion of the perish remained undivided. Look at another fact that resulted from that want of subdivision. Take the great parish of St. Pancras, and see the number of the children in connexion with the church of England alias. The number amounted to 4,000 ; but it we clear that, under proper organisation, in refe rence to the proportion of children in other parishes, where there was a real, an effective parochial organisation, the num ber should be at least 14,000, and is that he made due allow ance for the amebas usually educated by dissenters. And he (Lord Ashley) could answer, from personal knowledge and investigation thaeigg been induced to examine that perish„ with a view to the inditution of what were called Named • Schools) that there were from 15,000 to 20,000 children wno had no means of education whatsoever. But Dr. Dale, by nuking that subdivision, imperfect and inadequate as it was, had so far succeed ed that he had opened othoole—in addition to those that existed before— giving amommodation for 6,000 children. He hold that, in every respect, the use of St. PUMA proved the necessity of subdivides. It proved that that subdivision could take plass only on the spoliation of the principle for which ha contended, and that such subdivision when effected was followed by the most beneficial results. Another result of the want of church accommodation was that there wore scattered about in various parts of Lon don a great another of what were called proprietary chapels; and, though all must admit the good which had beea de al by their means, still they were not the inetitulons the members of the churls would wish to see. Their congregations composed of none bat persons in affluent or easy circumstances, the great mass of the working classes who should he associated with them in public worship Maas either no place of worship to go teat all, or than only in which each • separation of awes was kept up se was saluted to hurt their feelings. Many of thew chapels wee* &waist on pew-ante, conseqnently there were no free dams, aid the rate clanged for seats in these was generally ton high, for the poor could seldom avail themselves el the aseammedetion they aff.,rded. Now, there was another view el the matter which required serious wasideration, and that tem the position held by the to fain clergy as respected the at Jar . He must say that their position was not rely in itself, aad equivocal as regarded she mol lies the starch should hold in *egos of the country, They hid le • certain meat, and in the same respects to their ishrises, the power of the bishops. But in other re =they had the vespoasibility without the power. In gibs it would be well both foe the church and them- Wise *a this anomaly should be removed, and a greater umber dimness having the care of goals and twpossible emir lathe bishop of the/limos should be appointed. He bed elserved that the present orguasation worked inju ries* i respect to the .parochial system—and they would age that in these large lamp where there was no sub-dai des the affairs of the parish mast be administered by • vest or rector assisted by numerous curate* reepseshie him. Now, this was not a desirable state ef thigh Is the. fleet pies the number of mums was seldom meal te the &Nogg, their position was not adequate to c tell am rper a , of the duties devolving upon them Hear, = 1 .1 111111. 1 . 0 held that the present oersted isjorions.y to the parochial system est le the embeedisate clergy. Let any one go fate time Imp densely popolatid parietal, and he would lid ge ammeleis sad precarious m the position d the ttebsNF min deep. If ten cf thew dergemes were seemieed, in Mee moral or other the main (driest would be tillidest. He bed teethed anmercus eammanieedems from thew :7. He had selected some few whisk would afford a 111esinstead the condition of the whole. One reverend gwelema wrote, " 1 have exactly themes duties devolving Was Ile ell the view has, but lus oompalled to receive and egemmit Ida fa all feet and offerings." The amount, this gentimem sail,wm roamer* amomeat'sregani—last year it wee esmelhig lees than 71 , but it is the principle, the mark of tabaiselj t6 ared the being awed is a different position tcr sz (exiitstaletyljebelleted laanl of Us . s • clergy wend t to, rather this disturb the church is any way. but it Weeds tin a great meaty the holism of those who were slaw their ministry—who, whoa they sew that the over them was only as it were a substitute for t e o li C hi t i , whom all the fees and offeriEtmeare es paid over, they dl net Tigard him in the um though he were the sole and responsible party to they had te i ss e as their pastor. !Hear, hew.), Certain assume of , having collectively 200.000 souls under their ri g :rad e promoted • memorial to the Aretb:shop of tabury. and also one to the noble lord„ ntgisthat the subdivision of large populous pa. to independent disttiet parishes would - strengthen the elegreh and reader it more silkiest. • similar resole ties had been cane to by a large parties of the clergy al Tor having the charge collectively of 176,000 sods; and be their memorial to the Archbishop of Toth was received by that functionary with the highest approbation an d mentesess a eoneurrenue. Another beembat wrote te him (Lad Ashley), wise "ay position he this district affords a sating exemplifisation of the seerwity for some relief. With a population of between 12,000 and 14,000 under my charge, I cannot marry say iins In my churl, a even without the visa's peres baptise a child, or cinch a woman " This was a case is which they should interpose to derive any cm of the pewee a interfenng in this way with er. (Hear.) Again, he added 'All registrations Rest be in themother chetah, and imagine what mast be the coneequeoce of that In es met • population." One evil atf isg of this mula ttos, besides the Inconvenience of com pell ing the Puiltdcails ',papist distasce to the mothereherehores that it actedas an inweeragewent to clandestine maims, and it would be found that in the metro? , lig as elsewhere such marriages perrally took place in those large pariahs* in which, at the mother church. where she ceremony was ob:iged to be roomed, the parties wen usetwarily unknown. LUC that wrote : •Neither marriages nor burials can take place in my church without the payment of double dam, although the parch chug& of the dis tr ict is three miles off." Another said "The people hers are vexed by double rates ; they hove no °ligation - to lay a church raw, but they wish to pay for the church of the district where they live." (Ham) Another clergyman stated: "I THE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EVENING, MARCH 2, 1849. diem Yawl of by ether ewe emy sad restate mans. The adle bled soma to think Owe was more &natation ia loge the to smsn paddies ; hat he would undertake to poses the esatrary. He ailed maks many objections to the mak lord's asetioa, _but would now on ly moss, u an aisteamest. die boreitoedea stow the word =ion" et these weeds "'leisella s to the Church of " and the addllisa M the sad of the motion of thsee weds—" also is *she Me the but mode of potting la cad to all etolesiselleel shams plisse and pluralities, mod of uniting perishis whisk estoreiely contain only a wide limited number lisiseslag to the Church of England." - - - - - ' Mr. HEALD said tint although net a member - of the Church of England, ha was sincerely attached to its prin. *des. Although a noseoeformist, he begged to express his entire concurrence In the object of the noble lord's motion. (Cheers.) He felt that not only the church of England, but the great body of the nenseaformists, were under an obliga tion to the noble lord the brlogiws leeward such a resolution, and would, notwithstanding theseideme of the hon. member ' for Montrose, so canner Ewa to be. (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Heald), believed est noments for rendering the established church of de sonatry more efficient were those which were most likely to institution of the country on a permanent bens leers) ; and the effect of the noble lord's resolution he considered vronll be to set the Church of England more at liberty to effect that object. It would enable her to do that which the nonconformists were at liberty to do—to extend the means of religious instruction. As a absconformlat he ea honey conceded that right to the establithed thatch as he demanded it for himself (Hear, hear.) One of the faults of the motion appeared to him to be appointing a swassisea to inquire when they wanted one to act; still be thought the coentry was indebted to the noble lord for coming forward with a distinct plan. Another fault he saw in it was the subdivision of large parishes into dis tricts combining 40,000 moult . Now he did not attribute to the noble lord the least wish to east say reflection an the nonconforming body, but it was to be observed that there was that peculiarity about the ;population of our 'manufac turing :thstricts of Lancashire Sad Yorkshire which made M o m ui rehend that the eppliostiem to them of sae a plan w be attended with a good deal of contention and strife. (Hear, bear.) Taking, as an example, the town of Stock port, t here would be found to exist there two or three chapels for every church. (Cheers from Mr. Hums and others.) Therewere 12,000 children out of a population of 60,000 educated In the Sunday schools of the nonconformists — (hoot, hear)—and he hoped he might say, without any viola tion of modesty, that 10,000 of those children were taught by voluntary contribution. lie might say the same of all the commercial towns of Laneashire ; and, as a amiable* of the county, he was compelled to bear testimony to this fact, that, in the outbreak of 1842, when almost the entire population left their work, in the time of harvest, and when a spark would have sufficed to peadose a conflagration, not a single breach of the peace had been committed by any one of the thousands who at tended those Sunday schools of the nouconformists. At any time, but particularly at the present, he thought it would be most unwise I. throw into the field the nods of religious strife and contention, or run the dancer of exciting a feeling of opposition between the church of England and the non• infonaut/. (Hear, hear.) • • Mr. BRIGHT would forgive tl e hon. gentleman what he stated in the beginning of his speech, on account of the facts he brought forward at the end of it. The noble lord protested it was not his intention to ask for a vote of money ; hut they had bad protestations of the same kind before which ended differently. He (Mr. Bright) lived in a parish of the character described by the noble lord as 8t for the ap plication of his plan. It was a pariah of 80,000 lake bitantg, including ten miles spare of country, and the vicar of which was not unknown to fame, one of those semi bishops alluded to by the noble lord, and he appointed to eight or ten churches in his district. He (Mr. Bright) had heard it made matter of oomplaint by churchmen that as there never had been there an evangelical vicar, there never bad been an evantical clergyman. With regard to the doable rates, it been constantly complained that portions were obliged to pay to mother time, living at one end of the parish and probably never having travelled to the other. If parliament took upon itself to look after these funds he should not deny their right to do so. The time was not come yet, though it was fast hastening on when the principles he held on this sub;ect would re ceive a mon favourable hearing in that house, end be carried oat in the administration of the affairs of the country. The noble lord was in error in supposing that either in the north of England or in that metropolis, clergymen could have that precise position he hoped for. Looking at the education of clergymen, their habits, tendencies and sympathies, and seeing how upon all peat public questions they differed from the great MAN of those with whom the noble lord wirhed them to be brought Into contact, he thought there never could be that sympathy, as there was not now, which the noble lord desired between the people and the clergy. The noble lard slid the labouring people of St. Pancras did not go to church. He believed the same might be maid of large rpu lations all ovtr the country. When they did go—they went to chapels more than to churches. Thetas was not long gone by when 'Roughen of parliament would not see any greet evil in the fact of the people not going to church. He (Mr. Bright) had been investigating the number of clergymen compared with the population, and be found that it was amply sufficient for all the purposes of supervision, preaching, and ministering, in every way a clergyman was competent to do, as the following table would show : ENGLAND saw Wars. Total benefices Curates Add dignitaries, heads of collet" &e. Benedoes and curates Dana haying no duties, or pluralists 10,513 6,230 13,763 1,017 16,610 13,763 3,067 Total working clergy 12,676 Bente= end curates 15,763 Population Or 1 clergyman to every 1,143 of population Total poralstion of England and Wales Deduct 3,000,000 who attend free or dimenting churches, and who mama 4300,000 population 4,000,000 13,500,000 Now, of that 13,500,000 who nominally belonged to the church, a considerable number did no; belong to it, and would not thank the noble lord for including them within its pale. But admitting them to be churchmen, then the supply of 15,763 clerg ymen amounted to 1 for awry 856 of church population. lie would now give them a few facts about the dissenter, of whom the noble lord had said no thing. The free churches in England and Wahl amount to lionalista, 1,840 ; baptists, 1,741; various metho dists, Tg; prabyteriase, &c., 130: total, 7,950 congrega tions having no connexion with the church of England. Now let them look to the distribution of the clergy power of the establidunent. kOnietten Huntingdon l 9i a 2lL 97 or lin 646 Suffolk Lincoln. 317,000 607 or lin Or Norfolk 390,000 639 ....or lln 553 Lomita York 193 or 1 In 4,678 780 at 1 in 1,104 1,036,409 1.904 .....a lln 854 1,388,854 1,378,839 Laudon isd Middle= 1,U8,300 Mona . 4 Oxams 246 .46 1 bi 6.221 PoPulotloa. HeseSoo. K. Pop. 6,46,661 2.644 6,753,339 6,114 ...... 1 1011,644 10 dloomess Amuintim Mantes. London endlesez lan caster end Taft 4,066,315 1,294 Huntingdon, Norfolk, and &¢Sulk 730,303 1,191 Of the 12,923 working clergy, 6,681 bad parishes with populetione below 300 each, and 6,242 had parishes averaging less than 2,300 each. He should like to ask the noble lord why he did not turn his attention to these facts, and to the vast mass of abuses which he was leaving untouched, instead of applying himself to the small mass of abuses which he (Mr. Bright) admitted ought also to be touched, but in a different direction. Why. did not the noble lord turn his attention to that state o f things which upended - one-half at 'the clergy-power on one-eighth of the population, leaving the remaining esven•eighthe of the population with the provision of only ono-half of the clergy power. (Hear, bear.) The noble lord said he could get the money by voluntary contribution. He could get all the money required for the inch of Eng land in the same way if he asked far it. (Hear, hear.) But as that was not dose, would it not be better for the noble lord to consolidate NOM el the parishes and remove as vacancies sad death would wait, when there was a small population. He would now draw atten tion to the increase which bad taken plass fadttings In places of worship since l i asi ii lte foll= as pissors, draw n a comparison between sad Wand. 0111 i. =an, hoeirkit. thli C l iwpaktits at whisk Mer weeshon ... M 1.224.7011 enge. Clainhaa. lairs 1100 Putieweisera apasea._anas Volturno, aselclannene 1100 92 fa 9 25 0, 3 043 500 511,145 Mapes, before 1300 N Do. 'Noe 1500 868 302,754 Of chapels-314d1y by voluntary 4on tributlos He wou'd now take the cotton and woollen districts of Lancashire and Yorkshire, showing an excess of chapels, schools, and scholars of dissenters: Iloaday Ch. BMWs& %hods. Temehey. @sham. Ertablbbenat .. 367 357,964 1179 12,916 116,429 Disinters O6l 339,318 707 61,717 156,601 05 dial 264 1,339 326 15,769 42,172 sentare Population ciao. 1601. 1641. Inceeess. Per C lADeliagre 493,634 1,214,706 710,314 146 York6Eln - - • • • • • And, instead of the destitution inaeasino with the popula tion, it had signally decreased in proportion ; for while the population had increased 148 pa ant. in Lancashire sines 1801, and the population of the woollen die triet of Yorkshire 104 par ant., there had been an increase in that time in the seeeinasele , on in places than 240 - cent Thee. of worship of more . per hate did not show that the motion ought not to be carried; but showed that it was a =ldaho to suppose that that extraordinary destitution azhted which some persons ima gined, when they heard of nothing but the effort. of the church. It sou true that church people were much fettered in their operations with regard to the ministering of their clergymen, the building and endowing of churches, and a variety of other smatter% which they were becoming very mad permitted to peeks any . srvice bat thU whisk I la elase ve the pulpit= lins22• Anther 'So rigid h dla , that I mut mit to the Mi be thibillethe pore of another &Met, sr Ihe tory essolved here." It was deer that Mk es sesemenest NM plass the sinister, in th p e o z o t ▪ ibo woad sod his singregation, in a Okk min diesnabie his te dlssWgee eSneetly the duties sf Ills widen. (Hear, bear.) Another remedy for this slMaeif Wogs be mid Mask mid be the appointment Oad • liimft whim dray dreali be to detembse on the M den ef these rep sad dam-peopled districts. He was emisseed that it this sabdinies were Wed* not wag maid it remove the greeter post of the evils of which he bat intemine rest senators' besides la Mee hise eve dm NNW *se of what be said. *ow the Mein Ming ben imbdiehiso, he maid take the ease of a rest parish that was anbilivided a shed time eas smi show the MOM' make pedased in the aid seed Moans of the people. Up to the time the ',Midden the pmt body eta the MOMS of that perish wore mho* ills most s :=s 4 i: ths meirspons. In BM the reat pad& ef was subdivided. sot as he mail with--Inee &Oriels but fate kerns a t at froli a i l U ma to Aysi l erh.' Nevatheleas, great es vras pspaleliss ender Memel of these inatembents, imported had been the benefits whith hod resale& hem their Limn (Hear, bur.) He would an take the wish of lit. Malkine, and comsat its state be fore aml 'Ark had bees enbdivided. la 1844, bakes its eabdivides Wok Leo, it remind • oohs'-nos kr about 140 ehilion. In 1111, ft had aensao4 _finaday, infant, 2ris.and night salsOols, elneng OsMen to 1,100 In 1844 ealy abed 49 tams attended the chords ; in 1849 the large elmak wee quite fall at night sad it was exceedingly well sellsmisd in the corning' end from 1844 to 1849 Share wee balked no hirer than 1,003 ralTof an ages, inn es three score years and his was nuke M beepirt f with what had occurred • Mar &Mr, hi It was stated in a report three at floor yore ago, that is Ashion.under•Lyne an MOM mete king IIITIT•11, OM pawn baptised in a kw WON every en of wiessa lealked M o ths church for that passe. In order to show the water advantages which holism hie by the saledivides of the oansh of St. Maffikka. had to state that under the advice sad we of *dr mama pester, 2,066 perms la humble eirsurames NOM& es save a mm ef 6131. is that dietrist else ken Ilami , ad esnoapperting oesphietheas bel bran est ablished. • readlegooma7ol she been span& he the Mask of the =4•SViseri, a view to leihro them to OM' rem and be snail my hum his tin Ible sum whisk wash . rem e for t= ag l i f e ll peer wen sigh a essirsorem esd refreshment of tae end great numbers of am weal he drawn away from the 'la shop. (Herr, beer.) The sable lord next re tard to the par:shes of Upper et. Danstan's.iiothe- Rset, where similar results had been obtained by subdivision. He believed that the sub-divisies of parish., and the introdseden of the parochial erns in all its affairs, west& go far indeed to moan the problem—" whet simnel they do with ragged claim and ragged schools ;" he his opinion was, that if the parochial system were mild oat f..11y in all our large towns, the ranks of would be thinned, and sights of ragged. re a ss ad rZbe maned. (Hear.) The mode he proposed he isembas out his plea, wu, first of all, the appointment of • semienue and that cosonsians should be instructed le isms* all vested rights, such as livings and inemlnesies, as& to &TIN • mods that should eons into Zriact at sew s bat in parr. They should br fur lllliaerisiri le tab the due apportionment of rich and peer la each Mellid. le make a return of its various chari ties and demilabis issilledions, to convert the new church Meld* Me ea ndsgerlimt parish for all parochial pur plish M i ke shed,* enable every minister of these die dad Menses le be se lairendent to all intents and pur poses se any dm or reeler. (Hear, hoar.) He could not sensed e what objecting essbi be urged to this plan. He Mad for ao gnat of nblisoassey to carry it out ; onthe con trary, he repudiated the Ratios of say such grant. It might be asked, where were the funds by which be reposed to endow these benefices, should they be oxistrocted ? His answer was, that upon the subdivision being effected some fund might be found for the =demount of the smaller benefices. The funds to which he looked were in the first place the existing revenues that would in some instances be subdivided. He confessed that he looked with some confidence to the result of the commission lately appointed to inquire into the church lands Masse from these lands he had no doubt • very large sum of monyibt be obtaised to endow the distinct benefices. (Hear, ben But he also looked to the re fitly stimulated and incre munificence of the church of England herself. (Loud cheers.) He believed that the liberality of that church had never yet been folly tested. (Hem.) There certainly was a diftulty in obtaining money if you brought forward a general proposition and asked for a million sterling to early it out; but if you introduced • specific plan like the present , and showed plainly the object for which the mew was to be expended, you would not only raise funds ahem the particular localities which would be bene fits& by the subdivisions, but from other districts like wise. Honorable gentlemen must not fancy that east fends would be required, or that such a number of clergymen as 6,000 would be needed. The Hoe. Boptist Noel had called some time since for thessands of churches to b• erected, and millions of money to be raised, but the mums of his scheme aopalled the public, and his object fell to the ground. He (Lord Ashley) wanted no sub extensive plans as then The whole number of parishes in this country the population of which exceeded 4,000 amounted to 270 ; and a gentleman who had the most eate ries. is this matter wee of opinion that the addition of 600 reato the existing staff would be quite equal to meet ssigsseir of our present position. (Hear.) Sap rain he set down each of the income of these 600 misM ten at MR per annum, a sum of 160,0001. yearly would be mulled ; sad surely 160,0061. was not too large • me to ask from the speisat and piers members of the Church of h ave ngland. (Watt. hear.) Re Wined it was ees fa Sew, assesso* a rang sabevides set to West the °t r beam a keel rat wash be both evilly sad treahlesem The amble ISM seasholed by modeg 110 sa r homble 'ekes tra mania rinnMae les Mere% he egent • emorm M Wit id ditt eg m hats neln ens al emiedsseseit per di drad z r i = nes wen. fi llala WNW d an m the of pe sesik la ors , twin am et in MM. of mmiskneseiii not eased 4,000 MIL The motion baring been eesasied, lard J. RUSSELL am did he had with IMO the deepest Interest to the a Bs e opts* whisk !Ojos& Mesa ad dressed to the hour. lie be that as gas 'sold deny that the object of the nide mover was one of the greatest importann and that the sabdielska of redone, and the g:inof diarists Mgr dromem, would he Mealy to g the mod IMMO matte Men as Innis' the meal and religious leetnetka of the peers (Hser,be With repeat to the mode in which the pin wen to be curle d est, the Mk lerd had slated in the mommeasement of his epos_k that it woo net his intentica to ask for any public Mk he the purpose. Hi. (Lord J. Russell's) own opinion use, that it wish hav p e urpose. been sans' to ask lly for any sash fun he that !Mo Km with the ds noble MO that means would be found(' within the church M OM the object, and that if those mesas did not entireLasse:plish the whole of what his sable Meat frobed, mild go a seadderable way to nne big as is it would be hand that there me imp mem* be derived from the Mr* nerdy, Mike the monies which he had advise& the crews to 2:11awIllt Mean to that peoperly, woad bereafer b l e ' w these man might be _Misted available. (Rear.) Res retest's& On the Mesdrneal osawaraloa, when they ) tad at their Repossl the leads derived km the abolition of mar issues I. the church, had not dented a larger peones ei the money to the subdivides of melons mass do Leaks and the sentry Oriels. (Rear, hoer.) He re juts' Mew that several evils of keg =f,essimisserel metterslmil to are. degree ben by atoll retsina in a form session by the hes. member tar Remind, (Mr. TOGO); kr that measure had tad • mod Melloial effect, and was really a step r the right dissents. He was also glad to sty that the appuak ellish had lass node by bishops and other ministers he rim* to sellen heads to remedy eerier wane in the Mises dram is thb matey had bens responded to in a nemeneblek must be most gestiOrieg to the Misr of every Mehra amber of the - selehlisbount. (Oloseri mi a; Writ Oak nelionlar to the Weds made by the of Lesion le mind had. to bald sad Maw hags Mashm ihe the oestrepik. sod by Met the kw sum of =was ebtained—a - iled that is itself plainly proved the with Midi the members el the thurch came for weal to malrihne M"Mead elneste r In other districts, ry ommy radon= MI Ina kind willing to come for ' 111001 soa Is ben& sal maim deseshm, in order that the ' ZeT e weeets settesi± a by whom they were surmaded wen Memel to ad = i thatnelsle illa kiest a ta t er sot takes foe Mae • dow when be said that whoa tha mode was notrals aa rks bi funde ldlidi w P or mi es • great geed " emilex rat be 111100._ Ile did not feel quits gees the waldenisa mid be serried out to the degree =lst: MI wadi be wetter of inquiry, and if the ash not advise a general change, they went at ell evade mkt • von great boss& by pe polis p lz at way ermakirside extent to width the pre now add be adapted. He knew not whet objeatka there could her the appointment of this enniseion ; and of this he was quite emiarsol, that every member of the church of loglaad, and every one who dissented from that church, I was deeply indebted to his noble friend for the many efforts he bad merle now end on former ()onions to promote the Mel, meal, end religious welfare of tho people. (laud Mr. HUME denied altogether the premises of the noble led, end ke contended that the planting of churches and the multiplication of minister would not relieve the difficulties which existed. He dissented from the plan of providing for the new beadier, which were peopoeed to be mated, out of re 41001141 a-rates. Daring the come of his speeds the noble MO had never mentioned the dissenters, as if such a body of Olnklioas had no existence in the la nd or as if they had YAW made any efforts to improve the spiritual wants of the lailHe weird to d know what was rent by proper ligire should be a clergyman and a church for everlapw lekellants. Amain that 4000 the. might not be Any of them =Mem of the Church of lie and esald =sr re COON absurd than to appoint MMenes sad to abmiles for sink a number ? (Rear, km.) Better to mks the church more per `ect and abolish those dkoralities end other abominations that disgraced it. baskel alms.) Tee, he ferried u abominations all oh* IkhtM in the Mesh es damns, and he theighl it Irma be math better for the noble lord to consider the bet da, of sholidelag them. 11+ asked, was it fair to mat as ai dive to her Majesty on the subject, and leave out ell mate , bees st that extensive and most useful ens, the dissenter ; OS if imemethei and mile( to the people could only be given to this threask the medium of the established church and Us Total unsomfertade under, and very much dimetiafied with. Bat if it were asked how were they to extend the use hassle of the thank upon the principles st church man, he would say they were not justified fa rasintalaing 600 clergymen a Suffolk, 699 in Norfolk, and 607 in Lincoln, when so man churches could not be wanted. If 160,0001. • year were distributed among 27 bishops. and soothes 160,0001. to the deaaa and =apt' s, who made a very gmdensely living, though he neva could tell what they for their money—Oar, bar)—it would eer- Shill be ajorlisious thing to apply a portion of this money le sost a gn e e czoses whisk the motion of the noble lad From his (Yr. Bright's) knowledge of • eatheind city with which he was once can noned, though there wen excellent men belonging to the mamba there, yet he believed the sum of seem dlioleibutad amongst them was frightfully in exams of cry setrisse they could render to the country in their situa tion. Bat there was a difficulty with which they were hardly able &Cement to cope. Of the livings of which be bad spoken, 6,096 were in the gift of private individuals, and were, therefore, involved in some degree in the question of private . It was a great misfortune that this system should Save been allowed to grow up : it was a very difficult thing to one with ; but he believed the time was coming when it would have to be met and looked at in • very dif ferent light to that in which it had been heretofore regarded, and when parliament would find acme way of getting out of the difficulty. He would give the noble lord one word of ad via, lost he should be too sanguine. He believed that no effort of that or the other house could draw back the main portion of the on of England to subjection, either religious or to any priesthood which could be esta by tke lsislature or paid from any public fund. (Hear, hear.) That time was altogether gone by ; cad it would be well that the attention of parliament should be turned rather to the question bow to gat oat of the enormous and complicated difficulty of • state estaldisissent which had under its administration an annualises's' ef her or five million', and probably, if well applied, a penal* ems of not less than 160 millions sterling. A church so formed smi so organised mast disappoint the expectations of all Wane seientious adherents, and be at the same time a sutdest of political contention in almost every part of the comely. He hod no hostility to the church as • religieus lady; he never would say a syllable against any one of its NNW ben because he was • dissenter or against any of its dap= or principles; and he only ventured to speak on it hems= it was a great public question—political in that house, be be laved, muck more than religious. As representing a es stkuency, and being connected with a district, where non conformity prevailed much more than Church-of-E @glands's, he had thought he might be permitted to state what the non-conformists were doing, and to show that the present organiiation of the church, and its connexion with the state, was a state tithing. which could not long be endured, an d which did not fulfil the requirements which churchmen, such as the noble lord, expected at its hands. Mr. W. P. WOOD warmly supported the motion ; and, in the course of his illustration of the number of churches built by the exertions of bodies of persons and by private indivi duals, alluded to one partly in St. Margaret's and partly in St. John's, Westminster, which had been erected by' the munificence of a lady " whoa praise was in all the churches" (Miss Burdett Coutts), and who was about to endow it, to build a parsonage hose, to build schools, and endow them also. Mr. HORSMAN contended that there was nothing either in the tone or object of the noble lord's speech which could be considered of en aggressive character as regarded the dis senter ; here was a large field where All might meet, not for the purpose of sectarian hostility, but for the higher purpose of pure christian rivalry. Mr. E. HERBERT hoped the hon. member for Montrose would not press his amendment. Mr. HUME said he had been misunderstood. He dif fered from some of the statements made by the noble lord, and with regard to the result that would arise from the building of churches and the appointment of more atm - men. He did not deny that spiritual destitution existed • but when the noble lord said that the providing for this spiiritual destitution would be the means of removing physical distress, he begged leave to differ from him. Now, if he agreed to this inquiry, it would be considered that he ad mitted that there was nothing else to be done. (Order, order.) The first amendment which he proposed was that the inquiry should not have reference to the whole popula tion of a perish, but to those of the inhabitants in it who beleaged to the church. Mr. BRIGHT hoped the noble lord would have no objec tion to the amendment for uniting small parishes when it would be practicable and advantageous. Mr. OOULBURN hoped his noble friend would be cau tious before he admitted such an amendment. There were two modes of defeating a proposition ; one was by positive resistance. la the present instance there was evidently no hops of name from that method. The other was to impose on the oommioioners to be appointed such a mass of duties as it would be impossible for then to execute within any definite period ; and as the whole importance of the present question depended on giving it a speedy solution, he hoped his noble friend would not consent to adopt the amendment, which would lavolve the commierionen in legal questions as to the power of consolidating livings under dif terent kinds of patronage, and other questions of that =tine relating to property which it would take • very long time to consider. (Hear, hear.) It was gratifying to him to find that oae whom he so respected on public and private grounds was the promoter of objects which he believed would be most beneficial, not only in a religious, bat in a civil point of view. (Hear.) Hntra's amendment was then put, and negatived without • division. Mr. HUME would now propose to insert the words " and to unite pariahs" where practicable and advantageous." Lord ASHLEY said he concurred in the object lathe hon. member for Manchester, because he believed it might be desirable in some instances, particularly in London, to unite parishes. Bat as be believed it would have the effect of impeding the inquiry of the comminionen, he hoped he would not press his amendment, although any proposition of that sort, if made independently, he would support. Lord J. RUSSELL said he would object to the pro position of his noble Mend, if he was willing ti add the words proposed. He thought it better not to add those words which would give rise to difficulties counseled with questions of property. The object might be desirable in itself, but it ought not to be a matter of inquiry by this commission. Mr. BROTHERTON hoped his hon. friend would with draw his amendment. be F. BUXTON made a similar appeal, Lewd ASHLEY said he had been grievously misunder stood in his former statement. He had been charged with not making mention of the stints of the dissenters. In bringing . fensard a question of this kind, which was purely one relating to the church and its tree action, he did not think it necessary specifically to refer to what had been done by the absentees. (Hew, hear.) Had he been asking for a grant of public money, or making a general statement re specting the spiritual destitution of the country at large, it would be his duty to set before the house all that had been demo and all that win doing by the great body of nonconformists . (Rear, hear.) The hon. member for Montrose bad been unjust to him in saying that he coupled ragged echo= with the church exclusively. He did no such thing, and it would be most unjust if he wen not to say, on behalf of those who wire Interested In schools, that they were deeply indebted to that body, tamed many of whom he acted on terms of the meet perfect trecedance. (Hear, hear.) He must also allude to what fell fres the hon. testator for Stockport he should be sorry that say impression =AU exist on t his mind that he did net mama to the full the great efforts of the body to width be belonged. (Hear, hear.) There was no one con nected with the manufacturing districts, and particularly with the West Riding of Yorkshire, who must sot see that, as vitriol' and as Christians they were moot deeply and inexpressibly ladebted to the pious efforts of the Wesleyan body, were haat for whose exertions he felt bound to a whole districts would be worse than if in a state of heithenbm. (Hear, hear.) He hoped he had now done just= to the efforts of the dissenters. He did not say, as was attdbated to him b the hon. member for Montrose, that the providing of destitution would' do away whit physical . What he said was, that if =Lwere to sosteis wily 4,000 individuals, the physical aof the es cost be necessarily better kaown to the awes= and pa dis tr ict visitors, and that the very fact of — this knowledge would contribute much to the alleviation of that distress. (Hear, hear.) At present die tress Ismail most in them =Sidi which were lead known. Mr. BROWN said, that as the feeling of the house was evidently against the amendment, he hoped his hon. friend weld not peas it; although, as it was he who suggested the wade, he should vote for it if his hon. friend insisted on a Mr. HUME said he would pram the motion for • &rialto. The house then divided, when there appeared, For the original motion For Mr. Hume's amendment lB-03 The original motion was then agreed to. Lord J. RUSSELL appealed to hon. members who had notices en the paper to waive them, in order that the house might go into committee on the Irish Poor Laws. Mr. J. O'CONNELL said be would not press his motion for the levying of • rate upon the church revenues of Ire land, provided the hon. member for Rochdale would follow his sample. Mr. S. CRAWFORD sat= press the motion which he had placed on the paper. lord J. RUSSELL suggested that the hon. member had better introduce his caption on the question that the Speaker do leave the chair. NEW BILL. *Kr. PUSEY meted for leave to bring in a bill " to im prove the relation bet rem landlord and tenant in Ragland and Weiss." The, has member said the bill wu in con formity with the moped of the Agricultural Customs Com mittee presented het yew. /Inept with regard to buildings, it wasentirely an enabling bill. Mr. NEWDEGATE would remind the hon. member that, if there Wm anything all compulsory in the mea sure, it leas so far at with the report to which be had refereed. He would, °waver, reserve all objections until a future stage of the bill. The motion was then agreed to. POOR LAWS (IRELAND. Lori 1. RUSSELL said that as the motion which he had to make related to the report of the *Dimities appointed by that hews to eassaider the subject of Irish poor laws. and as that amiss had been embed by a large majority, he ni ed then only ask the lumps to go into committee; and when the house was in committee he would state whit he had to propose. Oa the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair, P. CRAW FORD said the noble lord at the head of the government had given notice of his intention to move the following resolutions : " That in each of the next two pen then shall be paid by nosy union in Inland 4 PM WI a dada of sixpence in the pound on each electoral k INA anion towude • general fund for the relief ko Is leek= • that the said sum shall be paid to • ..least et th e Bank of Ireland, in the Dune of the stolen services in Ireland, aul shall be applied i n i reft liaili menmer ea parliament shall direct." To the motion Weiss the bans. he (Mr.S.Crawford) had to move the follow lad smemilment_ " That it is unconstitutional and unjust to Impel ea Inked separate national taxation for the wants of heallie, in long as the public general revenue of a ir Me an imperial treasury, and rimed at the lemelature, for the general purposes it i rUM=t i ca." ;He objected to any separate in tom Si Ilatianal taxation for Ireland under the present con stitutions/ the empire. The Act of Union was framed on the Wangle of combined responsibility. The union ittelf MS forced on Ireland; but England, having taken Irish poverty into partnership, could not now repudiate the results, of that onnexion. lie would cot then enter into the ques tion whether the repeal of the union would be advantegeous to Ireland or not ; bet if the union was to be maintained, the principle of united responsibility must be its basis. When a smaller country was united to a larger one, whose inhabitants were the most numerous and influential of the two, there was no security for in interests bat that of united responsibility. On this ground he maintained that it was unconstitutional to create a separate system of national taxation for Ireland. For his own part he was perfectly willing that Inland should pay the income-tax or any amount of taxation which would be just and fair. On that point he was very anxious not to be misunderstood : he did not demand any thing from England except on the ground that Ireland was prepared to pay her fair proportion of the taxes of the United Kingdom. He had voted for the extension of the fume-tax to Ireland, and he should be ready to vote again for the imposition of any tax on that wintry with which It was fairly chargeable. It was said that England kept her own poor, and Ireland should do the same. He was quite willing that Inland should maintain her own poor in the some way that England did; but this country had never acted on that prkokle of making the whole nation responsible for the Meat wants of particular districts. He did not deny that advances of public money might be necessary at the present time to save the Irish people from starvation ,• but he main tained that all advances should be made out of the imperial treasury, that Ireland should be charged with her fair proportion of the debt, and that not one far thing should be applied without previously making the lands tithe diguessed districts responsible for the recayment. He wee append to grant. as injuriou to the real interests of the Irish people. The attempt to feed a pauper population was an impregnable one. What the people wanted was eat only fad, but clothes. Any relief which could be aflorded would therefore be only temporary, and if the system were eared in, nearly the whole community would become dent on it. Now, the government intended to a sixpenny rate. What would such a rate rte l iZards relieving Irish pauperism? If Ireland con sented to the imposition of • sixpenny rate the extent of the demand would be incalculable ; the de mand of 6d. atter ed. would go one without any limit. He called upon English members to do as they would be done by, and not to tax the industry of the northern and middle districts of Ireland on account of the extravagance and mis management of the western parts. The question having been put, Mr. B. B. ROCHE objected to the motion, principally on the ground that it interposed an obstacle to the motion " for going into committee." Lord CASTLEItBAGII would recommend his hon. frieed not to press hie motion to a division, though, if he did so, he should feel bound to vote for it. He thought it beet, however, first to ascertain in committee on what grounds the government proposed this extraordinary scheme of taxation. Mr. S. CRAWFORD regretted that he could not comply with his noble friend's request. The Marquis of ORANBY said he should owe) the proposition of the noble lord, as altogether crude and i/21- perfect. Sir J. WALSH said it had been understood that there was to be a discussion on the general principle of the measure before the Speaker left the chair. Mr. REYNOLDS thought the better course would be to allow the noble lord an opportunity of explaining Lis views fully to the house. The house divided. The numbers were— For the motion For the amendment l5-124 Sir J. WALSH then rose, pursuant to notice, to move a direct negative en the question that the Speaker do leave the chair. The government appeared, in the preparation of these resolutions ,to have acted upon the very Irish prin ciple of fighting first and inquiring into the rights of the dispute afterwards. He protested against the princip'e that a government should, on certain cut and dry resolutions, of what he could not help regarding as a practically packed committee, seek to induce parliament to legislate off-hand upon a subject of such enormous importance as this. The scheme before the house he could not but re gard as the mutilated portion of some larger plan, either abandoned as a whole, or to be completed at a more convenient period. He had never read a report so wholly inadequate to the importance of the case, as that before the house. How utterly inadequate the rate which it proposed, to the purpose to be fuelled. A rate of 6d. in the pound on 13,300,0001 , the estimated rental of Inland,would only amount to 325,0001., even suppo-ing that all the malcontent insolvent parishes wen to pay their quote. For his part he believed ghat the fullest amount they would collect from such a rate would not be more than 200,0001. The sum of 206,0001. would go only a very little way to wards relieving the destitution of Ireland—if, as was stated, the 50,0001• already granted would only last a fortnight. The principle of levying a rate in aid, destroyed all local economy, and for so small a sum as would be produced, it would only last three or four weeks. Its tendency would be to increase the circle of destitution, which it professed to lessen and relieve. He would not dwell on the injustice of taxing Ulster and Leinster for Munster and Connaught ; all he would say was, that if by continuing to be taxed the former provinces believed they would permanently benefit their fellow countrymen they would do so, but they did not believe in such • result. The recent poor-law did not cute the dis ease, and it would isgulf all the property of Ireland in the end, without producing any other results. The 200,000/. would follow•the 50,0001. as that had followed the 10,000,0001., =doll would be swallowed up. His opinion of the rate in ell now proposed by the government was, that it would be t,and that it would be raised from 6d. to le. Vre s s ima insisted that Ireland must be made to support her awn poor; but the more severely the land was taxed to effect this, the greater was the number of paupers thrown upon Boglishmen from Ireland. Bad, however, as her condition was, he did not despair. If a sound policy was resorted to, instead of attempting to effect all the good by doling out charity, which was unwillingly given—if the action of the poor-law was limited—if the rights of property were respected —if emigration were promoted—these would be the sure and speedy means of restoring prosperity to Ireland. He believed that emigration well dew ed and applied, more particularly to the destitute districts, would be found to be a powerful auxiliary measure in alleviating distress in Ireland. If the government would thus neur to sounder principles, he doubted not but many Irish members would consent to eons system of local taxation, which would aid In the transition from distress to prosperity. The plan at present proposed by the government lie looked upon as altogethe vicious in principle ; and entertaining these views he shou'd certainly divide upon the question that the speaker do leen the chair. Mr. NAPIER said he should have thought that upon each a questiou as the present, affecting as it did the most vital interests of Ireland, some members of the government would hays risen and have stated the grounds for going into committee to propose a rata in aid upon Ireland--a proposal which he did not hesitate to ea would tend to alienate from us the affections of the wimple of that country. (Hear, hear.) This was one of the com prehensive measures which the government had promised to introduce—a measure affirming that honest and just prin ciple, that for the poverty of Connaught they were to tax the industry, the honour, and the virtue of localities which bad no more to do with tie distress of Connaught than York- Aire or any other English county. (Loud cries of " Oh, ' eh.") He most say he had hope for Ireland in the enormity el this proposition,'beattise he was satisfied that no British retkaan, who was not swayed by party feelings, would ear spa calm reflection subscribe to it. (Hear, hear.) lie hair= eons before that house as a mendicant for Ireland. He admitted that the distressed districts of Ireland had re sened sash assistance from England as it was worthy for a meat eountry te give. He had always admitted that ; but be felt that it was premature to ask the house to come to a conclusion with regard to any auxiliary rate ' in aid before the government should state the mode b which they proposed to e ff ect the objeet they had in view. (Hear, hear.) The government had had ample time to consider this question, and to mature measures wish re gard to it : but now, in the absence of all explanadoo, he supposed he meat take it that no modification of the poor law was to be proposed to the house. If this had been • tax upon general property, upon the mortgagee or the annuitant, or upon income generally, he could have understood it; but he could not understand the principle upon which the land of Ireland was selected—the land which had suffered so ' much from each a combination of cansee—to bear the burden of this rate. (Hear, hear.) Ulster had net caused the poverty of Connaug ht; bat even if it had, should not • wise government seek rather to gents Connaught up to the level of Ulster, than by this paltry and unjust measure endeavour to degrade Ulster down to the level of Connaught ? (Cheers.) The persona upon whom this rate would fall the heaviest were the hard-working, honest, frugal, industrious farmers ; and whilst the noble lord allowed personal income to escape, he inflicted the burthen upon that poor wretched clue of tecants. By such measures the distress of Ireland would not be relieved. On the contrary, they perpetuated the distress and stereotyped the poverty. This great question of the poor law, affecting as it did the whole state of Ireland, was worthy of the most serious consideration of the house. All the consequences which had been predicted from its enact ment by thou best acquainted with Ireland had been verified. Thebes's", was asked, at present, to begin with a dxpenny rate. It would have been mare honest, at least more manly, of the government, if they intended to confiscate the whole property of Ireland, to have used the boldness of the burglar, and have at once stated their intentions, rather than the meanness and the cunning of the pickpocket. Their first duty should have been to have shown what modificatimia of the poor law were proposed. They should have expressed • determina tion to amend its abuses, to correct its end-admicistration ; and then they might have said thy this was a great emer gency, that it would be necessary to have some assistance to preserve the people from starving, but that these was such 4 pressure upon England that they could not ask her to nth tribute ; and then it would have been • fair proposition to have taxed the general property of Inland ; but, if there were one species of property more than another which should have been excluded upon every principle of justice and ho nesty, kit wee the very property which the government had chosen to be victimised. (Hear, hear.) in aid would, he repeated, alienate from us the Of eetian the emple of the north Ireland ; for sh oy behold a pressure placed upon them to them down. The conduct of the people of 131 1 4 had been exemplary in the extreme. Tint, teadtaq had ever been towards England—they had sever hem th, firm friends of English connexion—they were anxious tolook to and to stand by England u one common country. B o he warned the government that this proposed rate had to i t no principle of justice, and that if they wer e determbild to perseverewith it in the absence of all reason, he should, t o the utmost of his humble ability, continue teepees', k t the consequences be what they might. (General cheering.) Sir G. GREY said—The two hon. gentlemen who °mo o the motion that you should now leave the chair, sir, %ve st to me, upon this occasion, to havo adopted a moat entry/di. nary course—(cheep)—for, about two hours ago, when the hon. gentleman the member for Rochdale (Mr!Crawirso) moved a resolution as an amendment on the motion that yo s should leave the chair, the noble lord whom I see Oppo,it, (Viscount Cutlereagh), and other Irish members, upon c lot appeared to me sensible and rational grounds, degree:st e t any consumption of the time of the house in dimming that abstract resolution, and grudged even the time occupied ii dividing the house, because they were anxious that my nobh friend should avail himself of the only opportunity cobs the forms of the house allow him, to move the resolution or which he gave notice, and which cannot be moved until ty Speaker has left the chair. (Cheer.) No owner his tb ot resolution been disposed of, although my noble triad try prepared to state the grounds upon which he is about toa d y, mit to the house the resolution of which he has Os % notice, than no gets the hoc. member fir Radncrshire (64 J. Walsh), and dilates upon the contrast between the datum of business in the present end the last session of parliament. He exhibits a decided preference for the system of coneys. tively short speeches, and then, in the absence of any fad; ha draws largely upon his imagination for the purpose of occupying the time of the house for 50 long annutes,l order to prevent my noble friend from making the prop*. pion which he was about is submit. (Cheers.) Then, the hon. gentleman who spoke last, whom I excuse, bea u from his small experience in the house, I believe he was sot aware of what he was doing, in very indignant lingua It . preaches my noble friend for making a impolitic, ' which he never has made, ant which he cannot nay until the Speaker has left the chair. (Hear, her This great objection to going into committee is accommisi, with another remarkable circumstance. It was conaretmt for both those gentlemen, who are prepared to consent, g necessary, to levy this money in Ireland, to show their um. city by nearing an amendment to the proposition. I see merely to deprecate a continuance of those preliminary din elusions, which can only have the effect which tho se. gentleman the member for Radnor described, viz., of p t . trotting our deba'es, and of preventing the despatch o f hi. ness. It will prevent my noble friend from layi ng b o o, the house his proposition on the part of the mutat; and that at a time that these papers show there is s immediate necessity for waking some provision, which o n only be proposed in a committee of the house, foe impeding the starvation of a number of the inhabitants or thus western unions. I do, therefore, hope that they grew. nary discussions may bow terminate, and that the boy, v i i not refuse to my noble friend the opportunity, the only oos which the isthheforrmesosluotif resolution thhoueseheonauseb,leanhdimicetoomsubp4,ing Nat stymy. m resolution with a statement of the grounds on *brib e m k t the house to accede to it. Mr. DISRAELI—There seems to be some miscoreptits on the part of the right hon. gentleman who has jut addressed the house as to the manner in which the bursa of the house should be conducted on this comae C. Wetly there was a resolution on the paper which I bold it my hand, moved by the hon. member for Rochdale, yoke which I and many other gentlemen on this side of theism thought it our duty to vote. That was a resolution widdi 1 will recall to the recollection of the hen*. It invaded declare " that it is unconstitutional and unjust toenail Ireland separate - national taxation for the "wants of pa ticulu localities, so long as the public general rues of Ireland is paid into an imperial treasury, sad plush the disposal of an imperial legislature for the red purposes of the united kingdom." Now, sir, I, at one, could not assent to the proposition of the ha member for Rochdale. if the financial system of Id Im countries had been identical—if there were a fiscal, Mal is a political, union between the two countries, I, kw should have voted in the unto lobby as the hoe. wed for EAchdalo ; but, remembering that the system d ation in England and Ireland are different; read** that bee Majesty's subjects in Ireland are not lid era window tax, to the other assessed taxes, and to the perty tax, I thought that the proposition whisk hon. gentleman called upon us to affirm, tilt k was unconstituti mat and unjust to import os Wei separate national taxation from the taxation whisk lid* in England, was not a proposition which I really toll support, and I must say that I cannot approve of that et of those tactics which are sometimes adopted by the we hers fur Ireland in this house on fiscal subjects, duo insisting that there shall be a difference between the to countries ; while on political subjects they are always way to affirm that the two countries are identical. But the other proposition before us was a proposition of the govemmte that we should go into committee. in fact to suction th scheme of the government. Well, sir, 1 vet equal opposed to the proposition of the government, I was opposed to the proposition of the honocuttit member for Rochdale ; and is it not evident, after the on regulations to which we have all agreed for the digated public business, that until the motion of the hon. nests for Rochdale was disposed of, it was totally Imposnfile oppose the scheme of the government, except by mom direct negative on the motion that you do leave the chsk tb hon. gentleman, in a tone of great indignation, says," not known to all of you—to every member of this kw that you are opposing the only means by which tic minister could explain the policy which he is ties to recommend to your notice ? I do not arts sir the honourable gentleman. (Hear.) The noble kr might have risen immediately the question was woe and might have moved the question, and he might made an exposition of the reasons which induced Est to the house to adopt this resolution. It wad E a v P it ° l7:en not an unusual course ; it would have bees s see coarse ; it would have been a respectful course. Bin* hon. colleague last year entered into &preliminary upcite of the policy of the government on the subject of then* gation lows, and the necessity was not en strong rtY present ; because, in that case, the right dam* gentleman had not placed his resolution ce its table of the house. We were not in possession of tit policy of the government, and it was out of oar pawn enter into a preliminary discussion, but the gods* having placed their policy on the table of the hoase,sodill could be more legitimate than for the noble lord hineele have risen, and entered into a general detail of the rose which induced him to adopt this policy; and, as her* to take that step, nothing could be more legitimate the for the hon. member for Radaconhire to have adopted * course which he has most properly adopted. Sir, I iltri say, that, under any circumstances, that ought s have been the course of the noble lore is if not token by him, was the justifiable rade on the part of my hon. friend. But are there *per* circumstances in the present case, which are apt to nits th =pinions of hon. gentlemen ; to stimulate their criticr and to take the earliest, and every lawful oproteoll! canvass the policy of the government ? (Hear, hash fie C po o li l. cy S so ib m th a o t rp ur . e ) , so Ha w y e e ll w d e ig e e vi sted dens , feoubendfoedro on w th such a information and supported by those previous investirld that wa are to be in a haste and a hurry to wry it at a legislative form? I say, the circumstances sada whit this resolution has been placed on the table of the dd. very remarkable, and what is the use of being is a Moe in sanctioning these resolutions ? In another pleas tilf resolutions have also appeared, and in another place, st request and intimation of the leading minder 0 1 1 1 ° . crown in that place, they have proceeded to **bleb s as mittee to receive evidence in support of these ruled, (Hear, hear.) What is the use then of being in tub hurry to send up our sanction of these moldiest there will be abundant opportunities for model that there are sufficient reasons to adopt them take it for granted that in that place they well sue their affairs in a business-like Wry to the country. I take it for granted t h a t tin" least, heft* they adopt a resolution like this, they be sure there is a good foundation for the step whirl .... recommend to the adoption of the house ; lout, form some estimate of the funds that may apse this theyu",eso` this proposition ; that they will at least have son s * . Z the manner in which those funds are to be Impair , 0 ' they will take care that before they c ome forward teff t r a rate in aid in the north or Ireland there is a worn!, stadia', and comprehensive valuation upon which to r" (Hear, hear.) These are all circumstances sad eo n iv tions that no doubt will accrue to thou who, in soother, are considering this question; and depend upon it, enter into this investig a tion ft would be some tics they arrive at • conclusion ; and therefore there is so mf the House of Commons should be nokkgill;,'" why of precipitation, to pan, on an ousasien so hg '— as the present, a resolution so unprecedented in its rl o ° - „, and which, in its effects, may lie so enormous. I, s .he mutt take this opportunity of protesting against _st elusion that, because I am opposed to this MGM'', the government with respect to the rate • :„" I am opposed to a satisfactory system saw. offer auxili at ary assistance to Ireland. I du my 06 04 ,, I said first, that it was the sty 6 , government, with respect to the Irish poor law, to hawl parliament with a comprehensive measure. that tho Chancellor of the Excheqner Old IU, la gesso. support the vote of 50,0001., that 12 months les net been aid to the district, so destructive a lOW ef and misery would have accrued that the imaginm e oil scarcely conceive. That was 12 months ago, and know, if the present palley is pursued, wait 6 ,r,,,„1 condition 12 months hence ? (Hear, hair./ that Use government ought to have with a measure which would have settled the the area of taxation, of the arrears of rent, sea 0 land ; that if they had come forward with a and well-digested measure on these subjects, 110 would have found no ssifticulty in obtaining the all parties la this house to measures of a t mproLd ter ; and for this reason, because, under such elseeTig such propositions of pecuniary aid would have basL i o porary character ; but under the eiretunslartes 1•01', they are now brought forward, I want to kulse_rios maintain they are of a ti.mporary character, whrrthas being con foresee that the eireumstainses to star_ Th roi appliedeannever change. These are my viewsgsur a t question. I think there is a proper opportunist r„,/ ° and ample discussion of it. I have risen now utleePn after the appeal to the house of the right hon.gthilig Secretary of State. I protest against the sputter Imy that if ou yield to such a polity, esPe 6lll37 -rM mulatto= w e hove lately introduced, so to the 9Va