The Express. — London, England, 1864-04-22 00:00:00

1 IPERIAL PARLIAILE/i T. HOUSE OF LORDS.—TnuaNDAY, Aran 21. The Loan CHANCILLOR took his seat on the woolsack at 5 o'clock. PRIVATE BILLS. Lora REDESDALE moved the usual sessional orders : That Do private bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read • sowed time altar Thursday, :;Oth June next. That no bill confirming any provisional order of the Board of Health, or authorizing any enclosure of lands tader special report of the Enclosure Commissionen, or for eoaftrusiug any scheme of the Charity Commissioners, shall be read • second time after Thursday, 30th Jane pert. That whoa a bill shall have pared this house with amend. meow these orders shall not apply to any new bill sent up from the House of Commoria which the chairman of own. inittees shall report is substantially the mme as the bill so amended. The resolution wen agreed to. CONSOLIDATED FUND (13,000,0001.) BILL. This bill was brought iron the Common, and read s first time. LAND MORTGAGE BANK OF INDIA BILL. This bill was raid s wood Rms. JOINT STOCK COMPANIES (FOREIGN COUNTRIES) - _ Me. Thu bill also passed the second reading. 111PROVEMENT OF LAND ACT (1864) DILL The *elect committee on this bill was nominated by the Lord eimooellor. 'UNION RELIEF AID ACTS CONTINUANCE BILL. Thu bill wu read a third time sid passed. LAND DRAINAGE PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL. Thu bill wu also reada thinl thus and peril. LAND TRANSFER ACT. Lord CHELMSFORD, in calling attention to the returns which have been made to the house under the Land Trans for Act, said that he bad moved for those returns for the purpose of ascertaining whether the act had answered the purposes for which it had paired, namely, the easy transfer of land. This subject, as their lordships knew, attracted very great attention in 18;i3 and DCA. A commission was appointed consisting of some of the most able members of the House of Commons to investigate the subject of the registration of titles to land. In that commission made a report in which they strongly ree Nammuled the in troduction of a bill for the registrati. u of titles. Subee quietly a bill was introduced into the other house, and moved in their lordehips house by the noble and learned lord who tbeu occupied the woolsack. Great expectations were formed of the advantages which would attend the passing of that bill. The registration y ropoeed was very simple, there being • mere tration of the fee simple and the title, and a totally distauct registration of the transfer and the mode in which the property was dealt with. It must be remembered that there were taro distinct things that were Weeded, the investigation of the title for the pur pose of making • declaration of its validity, and, secondly, the registration of purchase, and sale. There was, in short, the ilec.....ratiou of title without registrauon, and the regis tration without declaration. VISIT OF GARIBALDI TO THE HOUSE. At this period of the noble lord's speech the usual tran quillity and calm dignity of their lordships' house was some what disturbed by a rush of members from the lower house to the her. in anticipation of a visit from Garibaldi. Lord Outlmatonl for a minute or so evidently did not know how to proceed, era stated that he was afraid he should not be able very long to obtain the undivided attention of their lordships. After exchanging a word with the Earl of Derby be however pro ceeded with his address, and shortly afterwards the General, accompanied by Sir Augustus Clifford, the L: chess of the Black Rod, Mr. Seely, M.P., the Bishop of Ely, the Duke of Su therland,and several other noblemen and geetlemen,was seen approaching through the Prince's Chamber. At this time the space on either side of the throne was crowded by the eons of peers, and on each side below the bar the ups& ICU filled by ladies. Several peeresses also graced the gal lery. The General entered the house about ten minutes to six o'siock, and was conducted into tho space before the throne. Sir Augustus Clifford pointed out to him the minis terial sod opposition sides of the house. Notwithstanding all that has been mid to the contrary the General appeared to be in excellent health, looking rather better, in point of fact, tuna when he set foot on the platform at Nine Elms. He was attired in his usual pin• torseque grey poncho with the corner turned back, displaying the characteristic Garibaldian red jacket. The peers appeared bent upon preserving their dignity, and for about a minute or so took no notice of the General, or at the very most casting a side long glance at him. The Bahop of Oxford was the first to leave Ins seat on the bishops' bench and walk to the rail before the throne, at which Garibaldi was standing. The General shook him warmly by the band, and the three, Sir A. Clifford, Gari baldi, and the bishop remained standing together, engaged in conversation for a short time. Standing as the three did together, it was noticeable how much below the middle height G►ribaldi really is, being in point of fact very little taller than Earl Russell, who came up shortly after from the Treasury Bench, end shook hands with the General as he passed out. Lord Harrowby also left his seat, and remained some time in conversatioo with Garibaldi, and the Earl of Shaftesbury gave hint a greeting and si warm shake of the hand as he paned by to take his seat on the benches by the side of the woolsack, and a little above the chief opposition bench. Of course Lord Chelmsford continued all the while to address the house as if there were no such person in existence as Garibaldi ; and neither the Earls of Derby and Malmeebury, on the opposition bench, nor Earl Granville, Lord Stanley of Alderley, or other peers on the ministerial side of the house, thought it consistent with their dignity to take the slightest notice either of the General or of the unusual stir in the house. As may be imagined, the seats were occupied by a much larger number of peers than ordinarily attend the debates, and it was rather amusing to see the straggle of many of them to maintain an appearance of calm indifference, and an enforced attention to the statement of Lord Chelmsford, while the eager glances of curiosity which they every now and then shot towards where Garibaldi was standing be trayed the true motive for their unusual attendance at the house. Garibaldi seemed to inquire of Sir A. Clifford where the reporters sat, for we observed him pointing in a very marked manner to the reporters' gallery ; sod the General seemed to survey the reporters with rather more curiosity than he did the lords. He also appeared to be more interested in the magnificent decorations of the ceiling than with the floor of their lordships' house. A little behind Garibaldi, on the right hand side. stood the Duke of Sutherland, Mr. Seely, M.P., and the Bishop of Ely, with some other gentlemen. After remaining about five minutes in the house Garibaldi retired into the Princes Chamber, accompanied by the same gentlemen with whom he entered the house. We are informed that before entering the house the General visited the library and the private apartments of Sir A. Clifford. Shortly after the departure of the General the members of the House of Commons and other spectators left, and their lordships were left to the undisturbed consideration of thepablic business before them. Lord CHELMSFORD, whose address as we before stated had sever been interrupted, observed that very great expectations had bees formed with reference to the act of parliament alluded to by him, and it was to ascertain how far those expectations bad been realised that he bad moved for the returns in question. Of course it became n the act having passed, to establish • machinery by whic h it should be worked, and accordingly a principal registrar was appointed with a salary of 2,500/. a.year and assistant mistier at 1,2007., a chief clerk at 4001., and • second clerk at 1001. per annum. With respect to the selection of gentlemen to fill these appointments he had not a word to say. The very best persons were selected, and the appointments would be altogether unobjectionable if they had anything to do. So far as they went they re flected the highest credit on the noble and learned lord who had made them. They were men eminently qualified to fulfil the duties of such an appointment, if the business of the office had been what certainly it wee expected it would be. He had abstained from moving for the returns at en earlier period, in order to give time to get the act into full working operation, but be now had them to the let of March this year. He found that there had been since the act was pseud Id apritcationa under it, and of those 11 bad been withdraws and only nine estates or titles bad been registered. There were two cases which he thought ought to be considered as added to the number, and therefore he would say that there were 11 titles on the register. There were 4d application which still remained to be decided upon. It appeared that the value of the pro pe rty. so far as it could be ascertained, amounted to 1,500,000/. The amount of the average was 4,787 acres, and it appeared that the greater portion of it warn building laud ; and that seemed to realise the expecta tions of a noble lord who was a member of the committee on the bill, and who said that the measure would be useful only to those who had land in the neighbourhood of towns. From the great expectations t h at were put forth that 300,000 dude would be registered annually, it might have been fairly anticipated that the measure would be self supporting. but he regretted to soy that all those expecta tions had been dimppointed. What would their lordships suppose was the amount of the fees received to the lat of March last? Oily 180/. He did not know what the other forty.eix applications if carried to • successful result would be likely to produce, but be was afraid they could not ven ture to expect very much. The measure itself was considered to be the greatest political achieve meat of 1862. He had been anxious that all these facto should be known to their lordship., because it appeared that • measure which seemed to be so ardently deemed bad produced no good result. The fact was, they had been misled in pauieg it, and the only thing they had done was to make a permanent charge op= the , revenues of the country. THE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EVENING, APRIL 22, 1864. The LORD CHANCELLOR said he might irately state that he felt obliged to his noble and learned friend for har ing called Manna to this subject, and which had been dose with his entire consent and concurrence, homes he thought that the progress of all new 'GUM/aliments of this kind should be dimmed in parliament and the moony. With regard to the expectations raised in 1862 he had this coueo lation, that the measure which was introduced is 1858 under the auspices of hie noble and teemed friend woeld have cost the country double the amount of the act of 1882. When the bill of 1858 was brought forward he gave it a alum, and strenuous support, sad if the government of Lord Derby had continued long enough in office it might have been passed into law • but when the present government came into offiee the ark of 1862 was framed on the views which he originally entertained, viz., the registration of the real owners. He would make • statement of what bad been doge under the act, in promisee for the future, and of the reasonable grounds for sup. • posing that it would succeed when compared with the working of acts passed in modern times. Of those acts there were sow more useful than the Oopy hold Enfranchisement Act. Under that act in the first year there was only pee application, and in the next year 12, and in the next 29, and in the next 49—eo slow was its program ; and yet in 1861, twenty years after its pas • ing, so great was its utility that the applications amoun ted to no less than 786. Under the act for enabling exchangse to be made, sad which wee passed in 1845—is the first year there were 10 applicatiom ; in the second, 12 ; in the third, 33; but in IKt, 17 years after the act was passed, the applications were no less than 246. Now, under the act passed in 1 862, . and the orders relating to which were only signed on the 15th of October of that year, there had been during the 16 mouths of its operation, I and notwithstanding the most determined opposition on the part of the great body of solicitors throughout the country, brought into court two millions worth of property. Was that • failure? And sines the let of March there had been additional applications to the extent of between 1,700 and 1,800 acres, amounting in value to 130,0081. The obstacles ' to the working of the act were very great, for unfortunately there was in existence io this country a very bad mode of remunerating solicitors for their work according to the length and repetition of the language used. The result was that "elicitors were obliged to continue a system of complexity, because they had no other way by which to obtain their bread. The law as it at present stood rewarded them for prolixity and fined them for brevity. He would make soother attempt to make the act work, and the bill which be would introduce would contain a clams upon the subject of remuneration to solicitors, who had, as • body, opposed the act on the principle of self-preservation. The present act had been kept from the knowledge of the people, I and if any one asked if he could register his title , under it he was told that the cost would be very great, and thus he was prevented from resorting to it. (Hear, hear.) Did any one of their lordships know anything of the title of his estate? Was there not on every estate ' • solicitor who guided the proprietor in all things ? Could their lordships not shake od this old man of the sea? (Hear, bear.) Why should not their titles be printed, instead of being written on repulsive parchments in a style which few men could red! (Hear, hear.) After all that had been done titles were • sealed book, of which the lawyer kept , the key, and loaded men with grievous burdens which were heavy to beer. He had had one of the new deeds brought . down for their lordships' inspection. It was a small deed, yet it contained the rest of an investigation of an abstract of title extending over 150 sheets of parch meet, and the deed contained an accurate map lof the property. This title had been entered upon the registry accenting to the act, and the owner of the property, if he wished to sell it, would have nothing more to do than to carry this deed to the auctioneer, and the pur chaser would have nothing more to do than to take it to the office and have it registered for the small sum of se. or 6s. in addition to the ad valorem stamp, and thereupon his name would be endorsed on the deed, and the estate would be thus conveyed to him with an indefeasible title. (Hear.) If the holder of land with this kind of title wanted money he had only to go with a copy of the new form of title in his hand to his banker, and borrow as much money as the cetate would carry. This he could do by way of mortgage, but if he simply required a loan without a mortgage, he could deposit the document as collateral with personal security ; for the lender, knowing that there was no pos sibility of his dealing with the lead without having the document, and knowing that he had an indefeasible title, would be quite secure. He was happy to say that he had obtained from the Enclosure Coin ' misaioners the invaluable assistance of Colonel Leech, and had been able to prepare maps giving the mart perfect and I conclusive evidence of what the laud mapped consisted of, at as expense not exceeding Si. in any one case. lie held in his hand a letter from a purchaser of 42 acres of land for I 4.0004, who said that he had been desirous of having his title put upon the register, but that his solicitor said that it was maim the sprit and the law of his caste, and that therefore he could not concur in the application. The oonsequence was that the gentleman went himself, 1 and he had given him (the Lord Chancellor) the details of the whole amount he had to pay for the registration of his title to this land, which was likely to be let for building, and the whole expense of putting the title upon the re , gister, and emancipating the land and the owners for ever ' from all parchment aod mystaficatioxia, was 291. 7s. ld. , (Hear, hear.) This, he thought, proved that it was • wise I and sound measure, and having for many years given anxious attention to the matter, and framed the bill with I his own hand, he might be allowed to say that there had not been found any difficulty ig working it, though, no I doubt, in consequence of several cautionary provisions in serted by their lordships and the other house of parliament, • especially in reference to public notices, some delay and additional expense had been caused. Bat what was the delay of • month or two when the land was placed in • position in which it could be brought into the market with I perfect certainty of being able to complete the title and carry out the contract for its sale within a few days, while under the present system there were frequently delays of mouths, and sometimes even of years? Hie noble and Jointed (Timid spoke of their haying sounded a trumpet ID the Queen's speech about the measure ; but, surely, the language—with which he had some little coocerci—was as moderate and as little triumphant as it could possibly be ; for it simply stated the effect of the bill, and expressed • hope I that it would be productive of general utility. He entreated their lordships to observe what an infliction is the shape of taxation rested upon the landed interest, arising from the present state of the law which it was the object of this measure to do away wit h. They , could not grant • lease, ornell a bit of land, or make any change or settlement, without having to go through • • laborious and expensive operation, that the most act in reference to property involved an expense of 1 001., or' 130?., or more. Let any ow of their lordship run up in : his memory the sum he had paid to his solicitor from year' to year. The solicitor was the familiar of every estate, and what an enormous amount of taxation and burden was the consequence. This was by no means necessary. All that was required was that the title should be examined, the result of the examination stamped, the consequences of the examination recorded, and the record continued in • simplified manner, so as to prevent the perplexity, complexity, and intricacy which resulted from the present . system, and thee the title would become simple, trans parent, clear, and certain in the same manner as that to funds, railway stock, or ship. That the measure had been a failure he utterly denied ; • that it would be a failure he ventured to anti , cipate was impossible. He had had the good fortune to mist in some measures of legal reform, and to originate ' others, but if there was anything upon which he could put • his finger by which he could hope to be hereafter remain- bered it was this particular measure. He would venture to trouble their lordships with only a few words more. He held in his hand a well conducted paper which represented ' the opinions of solicitors, in which it was said, " This (the different mode of remuneration) must be borne in mind when the male of corn eomes to be settled. If it be not it will be so much the worse for the chance of this newl department solar ea the amount of its business is .. Those who thus prophesied had the means of fulfilling their own predictions. and that to a great extent was the sauce' of the measure being !so slowly carried,into effect. (Hear.) Lord CRANWORTH expressed his belief that they all had the same object in view in the various alterations of the existing law which they had suggested, and he hoped they would all as the present measure becoming more and anoceneful. He did not think that the manure—which was in existence only about sixteen mouths—could be procounced anything like • failure. If his noble and learned friend could succeed in framing any mamma to institute a more rational mode of remunerating solicitors, it would be worth all the billa on the subject, bet he most express very great doubt whether such • measure was possible. An ad valorem remuneration had been talked of, but to that there was the greatest objection, for it would give to the rick a monopoly. The Duke of MONTROSE referred to an alteration which was some years since made in the law of Scotland with the view of shortening legal documents relating to title. As superior of many estates,be had had to sign numerous charters, but he was sorry to say that he had imbed only one in the short form reqtusite under the act to which be bad alluded. The act was practically a dead letter, owing to the lawyers tallieg their clients that the short deed was not satisfactory, and that they had better have everything recapitulated. This showed how difScalt it was to bring about a change of this sort. As to registration of titles, he must say that that system worked remarkably well in ScitJand. Lord OVERSTONE mid that having had great experience he quite concurred in the importance and value of this act, and be thought that if the Lord Chancellor would *Dement to the publication of the bill prepared under the new statute to which be had referred, it would do more than anything elm to render the measure intelligible, and to produce a con viction of the desirability of carrying it into extensive operation. The LORD CHANCELLOR said be should be most happy to meant to the publication of she document, but as it Irma an actual transcript, it must be understood that the names of parties and of platen should not be printed. He might observe that this short document was the result of an exami nation of a title, the abstract of which occupied 150 pages. The matter then dropped. THE CONFERENCE. The Earl of CAENARVON, before their lordships ad journed, wished to ask this noble lord at the heed of the Faseignooffiee a question at some importance Maths to the conferesco. Their leidabipe sere aware that the Dustin of the roeference had bees fixed for yesterday, and that the representative of the minor German States, and of Austria and Prose* failed to attend, sod consequently ass day was lout—sod • dila wee of meth roceneet at n time like the pram& Re undonitcod that the conference stood postposed said mat Monday, sod Mar Ice:law would rsobrabse that it was sot the first postponement. The conference wee originally to have assembled ou the 11th, it was thee t poned to the 20th, sad now it was again till Monday next. It was most distinctly neaten that cos of the first steps of the conference would be to order an armistice, and that a suspension of keratin would take place ; but he was sorry to say that there were reasons which it waa very easy to undereksad t which might induce the Austrian, and especially the Prussian goverment, to desire to see delay in the armistice being carried into effect. That was a matter that ought not to be lost sight of. The question he wished to put wee this : whether in the evest of any further postponement of the conference, any step would be taken to secure at owe such an armistice as would cease a suspension of hostilities, and to avoid an indefinite postponement of the conference accompanied with a continuance of hostilities io Denmark. He bad seen it stated in the newspapers that there was an intention on the part of the Prussian government to forward their troops into Jutland. He bad also seen it stated—he hoped not on good authority, but it had appeared is some of the German news papers—that them was an intention by means of the occupa tion of Jutland to make Danmark pay the expenses of the war. Under these circumstances he wished to put his ques tion as to the probability of there being an armistice. Earl RUSSELL, who was very indistinctly heard, was understood to say—With regard to the meeting of the con. ference I have to state that the German Confederation having appointed Baroo Von Eclat u their representative, and he holding the offices of President of the Council, Home Minister, and Foreign Minister of Baxoey, it would be necessary for him to make &magmata' with respect to performing the duties of these offices during his &hoopoe, and he could not therefore be in London until Monday next. The plenipotentiaries attended yesterday, when they found that the representatives of Austria and Prussia had received strict instructions not to attend the conference until the representative of the Diet was in attendance. Under these circumstances I must decliue to enter into the question which the noble earl has put. (Hear, bear.) I must say further, however, that when the conference meets, which I trust will be on Monday next, they will take the whole matter into their lotion' consideration. The Earl of MALMESBURY—I am quite sure that it is best to treat the mattes. with all discretion under the cir cumstances about to take place--I say about to take place, because the conference now stands adjourned. I think the noble lord is right in theanswer which he gave in reference to es armistice, but I must say on my own part I hope the noble lord and the government will be on their guard against a repetition of these postponements. (Hear, bear.) It is impartible not to see the obvious *magnums of future postponements. (Hear, hear.) It is evident CI every one that the parties to meet in the conference may make use of these postponements to corns before the conference in a dif ferent position from that which they occupy at this moment. I therefore trust the government and the noble lord will employ themselves in noting most accurately what excuses may be made for further postpoemeet, because in this instance, looking in the distance, and to what I know myself has been the course taken by the gentleman to whom the noble lord alluded, I am extremely auspicious as to the ex cuse made on this occasion being sincere. Lord STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFE said—lt is satis factory to observe that both sides of the house recognised the importance of avoiding discussion under pr sent circum stances. I have no reason to doubt that her Majesty's government have already had in their minds the observations made by the noble earl on the other side. At the same time, it appears to me that great value attaches to what has fallen from my noble friend. It is satisfactory to those who ob serve what is passing that both sides seem to regard the conference with the proper disposition. It is impossible for anyone to read the accounts of what has transpired with regard to Sonderborg, with regard to the continuance of hostilities carried on in a murderous sprit, and likewise with regard to the apparent intention of extending those hostilities to the other principal fortresses of Denmark and throughout Jutland,without recognising the very great im portaoce that attaches to the spirit is which the conference is to assemble. I trust the progress of the conference will be accelerated, and that it will be brought to a happy end. Earl RUSSELL—The noble earl opposite is quite justi fied in saying he had a right to ask when the conference would begin. But with regard to the observations he made, it is just to all parties to renumber that when Austria and Prussia declared their willingness to enter the conference, and when that proposition was made by me to Denmark, the answer I received was that there was so much excite ment at the time in Copenhagen, that the Danish govern ment hoped an answer would not be pressed till they had an opportunity of more fully considering the matter than they had at that time. In consequence of that reply I did not press for an answer for some time. After a certain number of dale I communicated the answer I received to the courts of Vienna sod Berlin, and there was no objection made on their part. The house adjourned at five minutes past HOUSE OF COMMONS. -THURSDAY, APRIL 21. The SnA took Ow chair at 4 o'clock. NEW MEMBER. Mr. CRILDW took the oaths and his seat for Ponte fract, upon his appointment as one of the junior Lords of the Admiralty. The hon. member took his seat on the Treasury beach . Hs was introduosd by Mr. Brand and Mr. Huger**. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The following bills were read a third time and passed : Halifax and Ovenden Junction Railway, Newcastle-under- Lyne Canal and North Staffordshire Railway Companies, Pontypridd Water, Salisbury and Yeovil Railway, Sudden- Midge and Bary Roads, and the Whitby Water Bill. NEW COURTS OF JUSTICE. Mr. SELWYN asked the First Commissioner of Works whether her Majesty's government intended to swept the offer made by the Society of Lincoln's-inn in 1859, and since repeated, viz. :—either to give the ground necessary for the erection of courts for the vice-chancellors, or to build such courts at the expense of the society upon receiving, for a term of years, 41. per cent. per annum on the ac t ua l ou tl a y on the buildings from the Suitors' Fund, but without any charge upon or guarantee from the national exchequer. Sir F. KELLY asked asked whether it was part of the scheme which the government had in view to erect in the metropolis one large building which should comprise all the courts? Mr. COWPER said that the proposal made in 1839 for erecting vice-chancellon' courts in Lincoln's-bin, was more for the benefit of Lincoln's-inn, aa it would have entuinced the value of chambers within Um inn, and would not so well meet the general convenience of miters and the protessiou as the scheme proposed by the commiesionen for the con centration of all the courts in on. building. He believed that wan the ground on which the offer of the society of Linooln's.inn was re tumid by her Majesty's government at the time it was made. With reference to the question of the hon. and learned member for Suffolk, he had to state that the scheme under the consideration of the government carried out in its main features the recommendation of the commissioners, viz., that all the courts, with their aloes, should be under one root, and that scheme would be brought forward in a few days. _ _ I state of hie health, and that a very eminent medical man who had visited General Garibaldi—Mr. Ferguson —one of the first WIMP is the profession Mr. SCULLY—I ripe to order. (Cries of " Oh, oh," "Hear, hear," and laughter.) With great respect I rise to order. lam myself kept very strictly to the questions before the house, and not allowed, in answering questions, to enter into irrelevant dentinal,. (Hear.) The SPEAKER—A question having been addressed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he is not at all out of order. (Chinn) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The Duke of Sutherland stated to me that the frieods of Gestural Garibaldi were beginning to entertain very serious &ppm harness with regard to the effect of his protracted labotue and his intended excursions in the provinces on his health. and requested me to come to Stafford.house at nine o'clock on that evening for the purpose of considering whether any advice should be tendered to the general on the subject. (Laughter.) I considered that the Duke of Sutherland, by the coulee b. bad pursued in regard to General Garibaldi bad not only been exercising a princely hospitality, but really had been conferring a great public nervice—(hear)—and I felt it my duty, es he had thought it desirable to consult me upon the matter, to comply with his wish. I went accordingly to Stafford-house, where I found considerable apprehension prevailed on the subject. Geoenl Garibaldi had already accepted conditionally 'old. tatione to visit about 30 towns in the country—(a laugh)— and that list was one which was growing rapidly from day to day—(hear, hear)—and there was an explicit declaration by Mr. Ferguson to the effect that it was quite impossible his strength could stand the exhaustion connected with these continual public demonstrations, which were more taiga. ing in proportion as they were more ardent and affectionate. Well, the noble duke, Colonel Peerd, General Ebor, and one or two friends of General Garibaldi, consulted on this, and we all came to the conclusion that it was our duty to advise General Garibaldi to contract very greatly the circle of his provincial excursion, and rot only contract it, but fix it absolutely before leaving London in order that it might not be capable of being extended and enlarged by any new applications. This was first made known to General Gari baldi by two of his friends ; and afterwards I was re quested, and did readily undertake, to tell General Gari baldi what I thought on thesubject. I ventured to repre sent to him very strongly that it was scarcely possible—and most of us may have bad experience enough in such matters, though on a very inferior scale, to form au opinion on the subject—that be could go through these labours without great injury to his health, which I venture to add I believe the people of England hold to be an object of great value to ; his country and the world. (Hear, hear.) I represented to him that it was his duty to consider what would be the effect on his health if the engagements he had made, or appeared to have made, and probably would be called upon to make in addition to those he had already contracted, were carried out. I ventured to my that there was some tisk lest the magnifi cent national reception given to him in the great metro polis of this country, and which really forms an historical event, should not gain, but possibly even rather lose some thing of its real dignity from being frequently repeated elsewhere. That, sir, was the whole substance of my communication to General Garibaldi—(cheer)—the upshot of it being very strong representations to the effect that we prayed him to consider whether be ought not to contract greatly the circle of his tour. and fix it absolutely before quitting London. General Garibaldi heard me with great patience, and then proceeded to state that in his opinion there was great force in what I had said, but there would be very great difficulty in drawing a distinction between the claims or wishes of one town or Wise of another—that he considered the purpose of his journey was already at au end ; that he had come to England, not with the view of obtaining those honours for himself which people might be disposed to p, but with the view of rendering his thanks and acknowle dgment, to the government and people of England for what he considered they had done for his country. (Hear, hear.) He stated that it appeared to him that in visiting London he visited the entire nation, and ccosequently, as be had visited the nation, the purpose of his journey b ad been accomplished; that t he promises he bad given were all conditional, and that be felt, therefore, perfectly at liberty to withdraw from them, and that he thought the best plan would be to with draw at present from visiting the provinces. He stated at the sanuhtinie that he hoped it might be in his power at some future period, and with is pomp and formality, to come back to England, and be would then iodates, in the daaire be felt of gratifying the wishes of his old friends and others by seeing them in a less formal manner than it is now poi/able for him to effect that object. That wee the sub stance of the conversation which passed, and I need hardly say that I have omitted nothing whatever that is material to the point, and consequently only the very busy and active imaginations of people who, perhaps, have nothing better to do than go front club to club inquiring for some new thing—(" oh, oh I—could believe that political motives had been imported into this discussion. Indeed, it is hardly material to mention, but it was within my knowledge at the time of that conversation, both through official and unofficial channels, that so far from the ridiculous story of umbrage being given or taken on the other aide of the water by the reception accorded to General Garibaldi being true, the feelings of the Emperor of the French with regard to that reception were such as were stated by my noble friend at the head of the government the other evening in answer to a question. (Cries of " Order, order," chiefly from the benches below the gangway on the opposition aide of the house.) Sir, a little truth is very often a means of in troducing a very great deal of error, and the accidental circumstance of my having been called in—whether with maxi or without reason—to advise on account of the bear ing of these receptions on the health and comfort of General Garibaldi has been made, perhaps not unnaturally, the ground of storied' which I need only declare to be entirely destitute of the slightest shadow of foundation. (Cheers.) Sir H. VERNEI7—May I be allowed to say one word— (Laughter, and loud cries of "Order," which induced the hon. baronet to speedily resume his seat.) . _ Mr. V. SCILLY—With reference to the matter which the Chancellor of the Exchequer bee brought forward, I would sak this question—whether in the course of the con versation he has stated to us he represented to General Ga ribaldi that the feelings of the metropolis of England repre sented the feelings of the people of Ireland (Loud laughter The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—In the con. venation referred to I made no statement with respect to the population of Ireland, and with respect to the popula tion of England I left General Garibaldi to judge of their feelings entirely for himself. (Cheers.) The conversation then dropped. LISBURN ELECTION. Oa the order of the day for the consideration of the Apsst i. tions of R. Hennaly, and B. Palen and J. J. Eichardaon, being Mr. read, moved that the select committee on the Lisburn election petitions do re-assemble, and report upon the matter referred to them by the house. He stated the circumstances under which thecommittee had separated with. out coming to • decision, and complained of the hardship thus inflicted upon Mr. Ri chardson, the candilite at the last election for the borough, and the petitioner for the seat, who for eleven days had been subjected to the trouble and expense of a contested election petition before a com mittee. He thought that the bonse ought, in some way or other, to provide him with a remedy. If they said that they had no means of coming to a final adjudication on his petition, even to the extent of saying the snit was at as end, the house was placed in a very humiliating position. In 1770, when the Grenville Act passed, the house eat at nine o'clock in the morning, and the committees at eight in the evening. The words of that act relative to the adjourn ment of committees had been copied into every am that had been passed since, though they were not applicable to pre sent circumstances. The committee, in this case, adjourned to the wrong day, and era., one must admit that there had been a failure of judice. Th ere were several courses which might be adopted by which justice might be done. One was to pass an act of parliament by which the committee would be empowered to continue its sittings, and that course would not be without precedent. Another course would be by empowering the select committeetocoutinue its sittings. It was • mistake to suppose that select committee. derived their power from statute. Formerly election petitions were heard at the bar of the house, and afterwards by • select eounrittee. Mr. Grenville's act made it imperative that they should be tried by a select committee, and the act regulated the proceedings of the committee. Whenever the act of parliament did not regulate the proceedings of the committee, the committee was subject to the control of the house as all select committees were. The St Alban's case was • direct precedent for the committee pro ceedieg with its deliberations after an illegal adjournment. In that case Sir Robert Inglis moved that the report of the committee be rejected on account of the illegal adjourn ment, but the house received the report, and subsequently it passed a bill founded on the rep o rt, by which bill the borough of St. Alhen's was disfranchised. Under the cir cumstances he thought that this matter should be referred back to the select committee. Mr. HUNT said the house seemed at present to have its attentica drawn to the inhabitants of Owners rather than to the election for Lisburn, and it was impossible for him to follow the argument' of the hon. and learned member as he had not heard them. The hon. and learned gentleman had been attempting an impossible task, to galvanise • corpse_ the Lisburn election committee, which was defunct. Al though hon. members opposite, who were moat interested in continuing the proceedings of the committee, had the ad vantage of the beet legal insistence, no learned gentleman had ventured during the recent debate, to suggest that the committee could 'Magnin. The Attorney-(serf practically advised the house to let the unfortunate committee flounder in the bole as long as they pleased, and thee to get out of it as beet they might, These four gentleman met again the next day, and proceeded to hold a sort of coroner's inquiet upon themselves. Doubtless they were anxious to return an open verdict, but they had no alternative, and they were obliged to find that they Lad committed /do de sr. The house was bound band and foot by the terms of the act, and though they had unquestionably • right to order any four hon. potion's to sit and report upon any subject they pleased, it was dear that nothing which cou ld b e now d ose would have the moillest died epos the return of the sitting member. He would, therefore, teowtiteesd the has, WEST INDIA MAILS. Mr. CAVE naked the Secretary to the Treasury whether the West India colonies had been called upon by the Trea sury to oontribute the sum of 37,554 t for the present year towards the subsidy to the /Loyal Mail Steam Packet Com. puny ; and if so, whether the comsat of those colonies had been previously obtained ' • and whether be would lay upon the table of the house the copy of • letter from himself to Sir Frederick Rogers, together with the copy of • letter from the Postmaster General enclosed therein on the I Pa r F. PEEL said two years ago the government gave notice to the colonial governments in the West Indies that when the new contracts were entered into they should apply to them the principle of contributing half the cost of the I service, which was already enforced with regard to the Aus tralian and other colonies ; of muse, the (loosest of the West India colonies was Decesseau as • condition of their 1 participating in the advantage of the new contracts, and if they dui not give their consent they would be debarred from sending or receiving letters by the packets under such con tracts. PAROCHIAL ASSESSMENTS. Mr. S. WESTERN asked the President of the Poor , law Board whether any steps had been taken to enable parochial amassment committees to appear by counsel or otherwise for the purpose of defending their decisions be. fore . petty or quarter asesices, and to provide means for mee fift n t . l l lTM als sa id he attend inte ng . uch nded d t°o h luT.rod a bill to =mid the Acta Parliament in that res pect , and be hoped it would be pissed in sufficient time tor become law before the next July sessions. Mr. Ald. SALOMONS asked the President of the Poor. law Board if he intended to propose any amendment of the Union Asissement Act during the present session, and par ticularly if be intended so to alter that act 11,4 to make it compulsory on parties to appeal to the assessment com mittee before appeahog to the justices in quarter sessions. Mr. VILLIERS said he had just stated that it was his intention to Introduce a bill to amend the act. The tion of the hoe. member was • very medal one, 1 1 .71:4; would take are to deal with it in the bill. DEPARTURE OF GARIBALDI. Mr. KINNAIRD—Sir, a rumour has been very preva lent the last few days, and has appeared in the public press, that one of the member, of her Majesty's government has been instrumental in include, the departure of General Garibaldi—(loud cries of " Oh, oh," and laughter)—and in order to avert any misunderstanding I should like to ask the right boa gentleman whether there is any truth in that statement ? (Renewed cries of " Oh, oh," chiefly from the opposition benches.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—So far u I am concerned, I em obliged to my hen. friend for putting this question to me, because undoubtedly mysterious state ments have apposed in the public journals. The subject is one in which the English people take a very lively interest, and I do not think there is anything which they so much dislike am mystery with regard to matters in which public men and public motives are concerned, sad therefore, with the permission of the house, I will simply sad shortly state my share in the proceedings which have Own ries to these ' incorrect and absurd rumours. (Hear, hear.) On Satur day list the Duke of S➢thrland communicated to me that he and other friends of General Gsribeldi were beginning to enterti➢ ootwarleoskle oppeebsatios with regard to the and learned patleman to withdraw Ills notion, and dint* hie attention to the amendment of the law. [While the hoe. member was speaking, Gen. Garibaldi entered the boors, and occupied • rat for a few minutes in the peers' box, under the gallery.] The ATTORNEY•GENERAL thought it would be a per fectly novel and da•gero•s proceeding for the house to take upon itself to introdoceame•dmente into the procedurenpoe election petitions. The care whioh had arise• in 1848 had been dealt with by legislation, but on that occasion the error had occurred i• eight oases, besides Chelten ham. In this instance legislation would only affect • single individual, and it might be supposed to have proceeded from personal or political motives, • thing above all others to be deprecated. At first he (Sir R. Palmer) had been inclined to think that a committee might properly be appointed to consider the state of the law ; but as there was a bill before the house on the subject, which might be referred to • select committee, he could see no advantage in now agreeing to the hoe. member's proposal even to that limited extent. (Hear, hear.) _ _ . Mr. Burr then withdrew hie ►mendment. THE INSURANCE DUTY. Os the motion for going into =amino* of ways and maasti The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said—Sir, notices basin bees given of motions oa the subject of fire insurance duty, I wish to make • short statement before you leave the chair; because in point of fact it is not so much a question of that duty, sit is of the general princi ples upon which financialatatementa shoukl be submitted to the house, considered, and disposed of. There are two motions likely to be brought under the consideration of parliament. One of them is a proposal to be submitted by the hon. baronet the member for Evesham (Sir H. Wil loughby). Am it stands upon the paper that motion does , not quite fully explain its object; but the hon. baronet has been good enough to state its intention more fully to me in private, and I wish to draw the diatioctioo that exists between it and the motion of which notice has been given by the bon. member for Dudley (Mr. Sheridan). I understand that the hon. Waist dose sot propose to inter fere with the financial arrangements of the government. He wishes to question the judgment and discretion of the government in asking the house—being able to propose only a very limited relief in the matter of fire harnesses—to give that relief to trade instead of to property. We propose to five it to stock in trade—the hon. baronet proposes to give it to houses, buildings, aid furniture. He there fore raises the question in a simple form. He will argue that my proposal is bed; I @hall take the liberty of arguing that his is bed ; and whenever the issue is submitted to the hones the committee of ways and means will have before them a simple question which can be easily understood, and which it will be in their power to determine without involving any financial prin ciple, or without placing the government in the position of not being able to defer to the wish of the house, whichever way their judgment may be gives. The hon. member for Dudley has given notice of a motion of a very different cha racter. The hon. gentleman substantially mays that a re duction in the manner proposed is not the mode of redac tion contemplated by the house in his resolution of last year ' • sod that there should rather be • uniform reductionof Is. per cent. on all property. The intention of the hoe. gentleman is no doubt to pledge the house to a vote before going into • committee of ways and means, which would bind them to make a general reduction on all property now subject to the duty on fire insurances, as well es upon stock in trade, to an extent of la per 1004 Now' I wish to remind the hones of our financial position. Hon. members will do me the justice to recollect that towards the end of my speech I distinctly stated that my proposal was not one that I made in consequence of our isidg meet upon what with unquestionable propriet might have been done, but that it was a pro pomal in which we bad gone to the farthest point of our li for the purpose of meeting what we believed to be a largely entertained in the house. The house will recollect that it is the last feather which breaks the beck of the over-loaded horse or camel ; and the government, which has gone to the extreme of what it thinks prudence will admit with reference to the reduction of our finances, is not in a politica, however it may desire it, to go twice as far as it has . I stated that upon my present estimate of meows expenditure, there was • surplus, before making any reduction, of 2,570,0001. Of that an right to say 500,0004 L not dependent upon any resources which are within our reach, it being in fact a portion of the taxation of China, and liable to be affected:by any incidents of disturb ance in the condition of that empire. I believe that if it is in the power of China she will pay it, and also that it will probably be in her power ; but this item must nevertheless be considered an element of partial weakness in our financial position for the year. Again, the house will recollect that I was told I ought to have provided for the payment of the second portion of the redemption of the Scheldt dues, the sum required for which would be 176,0001. We proposed to make a reduction on sugar t o th e ex t en t of 1,X30,r1Z1 and another reduction to the ex t en t of 800,0001. on the Income tax, making • total of 2 ,130,0004. and leaving a balsams of 440,0001. Against that it was quite arguable that the redemption of the Scheldt dues ought to he'd:anted ; bat the balance as it stood was not an amount that could be considered an unreasonable one to leave in our hands; for it ia almost a matter of certainty that between the month of April and the close of the sa sh= demands will be made of some kind or another upon the public puree. Even since my statement on the 7th instant new demands have already arisen sufficient rather materialy, though I cannot state the exact amount, to affect the limited balance to which I have referred. Still, with such a balance, and feeling that we might be justified, in ease of Deoessity, in carrying the Scheldt money over to sextyear, I did desire to meet the wishes of the house by offering to them a reduction upon • portion of the fire insurance duty. The result of that would be a lose of 192,0001., which, with a small sum lost on lioness on tea, would reduce our surplus to 7.18,0004 Coder these eircumatitnets , it is proposed that in lieu of making a reduction of la. 6d. upon hook in trade.we should make a lets effective reduction, and one less likely to pro duce a reproductive action, of Is. upon all deseriptiona of property insured against fire. I know there is an opines that home property and furniture would be quite as likely to become the subject of increased insurance in case of a reduction of the duty as stock in trade, or even more so. I dispute that. I think it contrary to experience. But how ever it may be, I think it will hardly be alleged that a mi. form reduction of duty of la. would produce as large • per onstage of increase upon stock in trade and Moss property taken together as a reduction of la. 6d. upon stock in trade dons. Now, sir, I must venture to impress upon the house this very strong opinion —that it is quite idle to reduce a duty of this kind by small dnblota. It was proposed on the first night of the thermals to make a reduction of 6d. in the duty over the whole. Well, if the House of Commons wishes to make • distinct present of so much motley to all who insure, without any view at all to the extension of insurance, I cannot conceive a better scheme for that purpose than spreading this 6d. redaction over all chases of property insured against fire. For my own part, I am bound to say I have always agreed with the lion. member for Dudley upon one point at least, that if any reduction be made it should be a large reduction ; and I must say, in justice to the honourable gentleman, that although he now proposes a reduction of Is. in the duty —out last year, but on the former occasion—the reduction which he proposed formerly was from 3s. to Is. I think in that opinion he was right ; and I wish I could have pro posed a redaction from Is. to L. upon dock in trade, but it was not in my power to do so with a due regard to financial considerations. The reduction to half the duty is the very smallest to which 1, for one, could be a party to propon g to the house. The effect of the r e d ac ti on o f la. My upon all kinds of property would be, as I apprehend, about the following. I take the duty from fire insurance at 1,700,000/. One shilling off Is. reduces the amount by 566,000/. I allow six per amt. for recovery against the reduction of Is., as I should be disposed to allow 10 per cent. against the reduction of Is. 6d., and 15 per cent. against the duty of 2a. That recovery of 6 per cent. upon a reduction of Is. would mitigate the loss upon the revenue by the sum of 34,0004, leaving a loss of 532,0001. That will be the real amount of revenue surrendered. Bat it would only take effect for nine months of the present_ year, consequently the actual lan during the year would be something over 400,0001. Now, inasmuch as I am not able at the present moment, even without taking any amount of the Scheldt dues, to place my surplus at more than 200,0001., th e ad dition to the 192,00 W. which I propose to remit of a sum exceeding 500,000/. absolutely sweeps away the surplus, and something more, and makes it entirely impossible for the government to persevere with the proceeds they have mad,. If the House of Commons thinks it better to lease the question &lose, and merely to deal with the stock in trade. there is a matter for argument ; but as Chancellor of the Exchequer, although I may regret that a boon should be withheld, I shall have the consolation of greater security in my position. If the House of Commons thinks it wiser and fairer to reduce upon property rather than upon stock in trade, I shall venture to argue against that propositimi; but 1 admit that if you do not exteud the area of redaction, you do not break an elementary principle of finance. But it Is impoesible for us, with say regard for our own duty, attar the course we have taken, and the manner in which we have made our proposals, with a view to meet the presumed wishes of the house, entirely to sweep away that moderate amount of surplus which experience, propriety, and decency require us to preserve. There are mess in which a govern ment may go on without a earplzu. Supposing, for example, you found yourselves, am we found ourselves at the begin niog of the financial year 1862-4 with the estinisted produce of taxation exactly balancing the estimated charge upon the country. At that period I Mated to the house, on aspen of the government, and the house concurred in the view, that it would not be wise for us to ins any tax upon the country for the purpose of • surplus, and at a period when tt was impossible to agnate what the wants of the country might be, and when therefore it was better to wait, in order to obtain the revolts of a:peening. I hope that under the ciscumetanoes we shall not be asked to adopt that course which I believe, so tsr as I know, to be unexampled in the history of parliament — that is, when a government has proposed • provision for the service of the year, extremely moderate in its character with regard to the amount of funds ebb& they ask you to leave in their hand', not for • purpose tor immediate, but for the general public benefit, tha t whole surplus should be swept _ ,away and the Exche quer l e f t t o provide for future domande without the means of making provision for them. When the government submitted their proposals they entertained the hope that they would be acceptable to the bones. With that view they extended their mansions In the dim:tics I have named, by including the element al the firs insurance. They bare thus far been successful, sad the right hos. patients (Yr. Disraeli) has claimed the satheallip of those proposals. I ea* lab Do dispute or discuesion with the right hon. gentlem oi as to that. The government are much too well satisfied to oh. tain the assent and approval of the house, i n d ependently of distinctions of party, to retard the of these measuresby any question as to who is entitled to the credit of their parentage or authorship. But let not the house be misled into • mistaken anticipation of the amount of the revenue of the conlieg year, arising from the fact that the revenue of last year exhibited a large surplus over the estimated charge. Mat is a matter which is beyond the control of any p at h.. meat or say government. lf it be true that last year the nem .. yielded 2,000,0004 more than the estimate, abd be also true that in the year 16604 the revenue yielded as Dearly as possible 2,000,0001. less, perhaps you will say that is owing to some difference in the principle upon all:, ti the estimate is made. But there is no such difference. It was owing to the circumstances of the trade and indurtry of the country. It is owing, above all, to that grertcoctini stance of • good or bed harvest, which operates moat powerfully upon the state of the revenue. What does a good harvest mesa? It means this—that some 20, .;0. or 40 millions of agricultural wealth are put into the Lids of the agricultural producers, which in the cue of a laid har. vest would not be there. Not only that, it means that moderate prices rule throughout the country for all articles of first necessity, and the money saved upon these articles u spent, in a great part, upon duty-paying commodities. That is the reason why the revenue of Let year has been so pad, and why the revenue of the latter part of that year au better than the first. The house has the power of app3ii.t. jug • committee to consider these estimates, if it shmdd be lieve them to be insufficient; but, io the absenc e of any such proposal, I must stand upon these estimate.; and I take it for granted the house will stand upon them too. It is impossible to conceive a pear. ties more dangerous than that, upon vague and p. ml allegations, not reduced to points or particulars, not resting upon any responsible authority, that the country is likely to be prosperous, the house should deprive a goverinueut of an extremely moderate surplus set aside for the revenue of the year. Sir, I beg leave to move the resolution of which j have given notice. Mr. H. B. SHERIDAN said he agreed with • great maoy of the right hoe. gentleman's figures, but he differed very much from his conclusions, He accepted the right hon. gentleman's interpretation of the object of his resolution, that instead of a reduction of Is. 6d. upon stock.intrade there should be s uniform reduction of ls..uponandescriptioe s of property. But he had evidence from insurance othrea and others that it would be impossible to carry out the pro posal of the right hop. gentleman without incurring con siderable expense, which would reduce the proposed henefit to very little, if at all, more than the proposed ben e %t which his reduction of Is. involved. His (Mr. :Shanties's) proposal would not encroach upon the financial aringe. meats of the budget. The right hon. gentleman said truly that he had • revenue from this source of 1,71.10,000/. third of that revenue, or 566,000 f. *rote from st oc k i n trade. the right hon , gentleman pro posed to reduce that by ems-half, b proposing Is , lid . instead of 3s. That uoie to 283,000 /. He then proposed to deduct from that 70,0004, the amount of the fourth quarter if the year. That reduced the amount to 213 0O,!. The right hon. gentleman then suggested that this reduction would canes an increase of 10 per cent., which would pro. duos 21,0001., and bring up the amount to 1 9 2,000/. Now he (Mr. Sheridan) proposed to reduce the 3s. duty by Is. over the whole produce. One-third of the whole was 566,0001. If they deducted from that one-quarter. or 141,0001., they had 424,000/. Now how was that 424,010'. to be provided for' First, there was a natural increase of duty amounting to 10,00004 Then there was the proposed iocreass, which the right hoc. gentleman suggested of 10 per out., amounting to 50,000/., and the increase of 10 percent, upon the reduced amount was 42,0004 Then some des criptions of insurance offices, which the righthou. gentleman had not taken into account. paid 21,000/. for the collection of revenue. That made 330,0004 or near that sum. Thu s ' the right hon. gentleman would , have nearly 100,00 of unappropriated balance, if the house made the concession M. volved in this resolution. He (Mr. Sheridan) would tot lean upon the argument that the house could not rely upon in increased revenue ' • he contended that the right hon. gentleman had enough to concede this demand, and if he had not enough, whose fault was it' It was not the fault of the house nor his (Mr. Shendan's) ; because for two succeeding undoes • reeolution had been passed, calling upon the right hoe. gentleman to make some provision for the reduction of this duty. The right hon. gentleman based his calculations on the usumption that two-thirds of the duty would Le derived from the insurance on property and one-third from stuck in trade. Well might th e right hon. gentleman say this was conjecture, for it was difficult to know where he bad got his facts from. Assuredly, the insurance offices could not have given him the information, for meetings of that interest had recently taken plans, at which it was urged that they weld not uoderstsod the Chancellor of the Exchequer's definition of stock is trade. Not only were insurance offices in perplexity on this point, but how was the definition applied to the various elements which entered into the business of trade, such as the plate-glass fronts and ornamental fittings of shops, carts, horses, and harness? Messrs Pickford's vane, an oordiag to this theory, would be stock in trade ; and merchants might say that their ships were stock in trade; certainly their luxurious fittings, their linen and wine mint be so. Again, and with stronger reason, the rolling stock of railways was stock in trade. The right hon. gentleman left machinery, upon the importance of which the right hon. f i ez i tmis so th; last year, Drcis, quite in t; (Sirtl l u rch. P h. 4 lr ) worse that the proposition of the Chapman°, of the Exche quer should be practicable than impracticable, for it would lead to upcoming vexation and annoyance if carried out. What could have induced the right hon. gentleman to make the distinction he had was • difficult to under stand. Two reasons had bees ' The first was the doubt as to the reproducing power of the duty. All great writers and statists on this 'object were, however, quite the other way, and there was overwhelming authority in sup port of the view that a moderate reduction of the duty would he followed by • replacement of revenue. In support of his (the hon. member's) case he would submit the illustration that eighty par cent in the insurance upon houses and property had yet to be insured. The only =who supported the view of th e Chancellor of the Exchequer was Mr. Goode, the counsel to the Exchequer. The next argument of the right hon. gentleman rested upon the smumptlon that taxes on trade and industry replaced themselves much more sully than taxes upon property. It was quite amusiag to hear the Chancellor of the Exchequer say that the amused taxes os buildings and farms were buss on property. Why, the erased times were compulsorily levied on all ascertained property in the country. If those taxes were reduced it was idle to suppose that the memo would be benefited by it, but the tax in dispute was • direct tax on income. It was no more • tax upon property than it was a tax upon fiddlesticks. In feet, the tax was nee upon the act of insuring, and the parallel attempted to he set up by the Chancellor of the Exchequer u tterly failed. The right hot. gentleman, most iafelicitoualy, to cure one evil created another, for as a set.off to the exemption in the use of farming stock, he proposed a redaction of one half upoo stock in trade. The - public had heretofore looked with jealousy upon this exemption of farming stock, but they now began to understand that the ootuita7 gentlemen sod the agricultural intrust were their but friends in supporting a universal measure for the reform of the tax in question. The hon. member coacloded by moving the following rasa lotion:—" That, is the opinion of this house, the reduction of the fire duty is the manner proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, is not the mode of reduction contemplated by the resolution of the holies ppaarreedd last session on this subject, and that as uniform ndsetioa of Is. per cent. on all descriptions of properly liable to the mid duty would be more acceptable to the country." Mr. HADFIELD seconded the amendment. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHNITER maid that a great part of the usage/eta of the hoe. member for Dudley were in favourof the motion of the bow. baronet the mm ' her for Evenhani, but were not relative to the question before the house, which was a financial gnostic.. The reel points for consideratioa were two. The hoc. member said first he did not take away the means of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and that he would have sufficient means remain. ing and, secondly, he said, • If he has not got means remaio• ins, whose fault is it?' /be meth ingot that was, that the go vernment had done wrong in proposing to reduce the income tax from 7d. to 6d., and ought to have reserved that moody for • large and liberal reduction of the fire insurance duty. That, no doubt, was a propesitioo in favour of which much might be said, but the arguments against it preponderated. U, however, the hon. member were in earnest be might to have moved, instead of the little resolution he had placed on the table, one to the effect that the government had dace wrong in proposing to reduce the income tax from 7d. to od.. and that in lieu of thatreduction the fire insurance duty should iss reduced toushilling. Upon the part of the government he said that sugar bad the first claim, aad the income tax the second. (Hear, bear.) With rapid to the fire insurance duty, they had made a proposal in order to meet the views of the house, and if ft were a bad one, let them refuse it and accept the proposal of the hon. karwet it they thought it beget ; but the hoe. member for Dudley proposed to sweep away every wreak and shred of the surplus which, out of de• femme to the wish of the home, they were compelled to re tabs, and to land them in the position of Amadei bogprs. Hi motion was aot so much a monen of fire insurance duty as • motion of finesse, and it entirely destroyed the application for this present year of those prin ciples which had uniformly been enforced with regard to the balance of revenue and expenditure, and consequently the government could not scads to it. (Beer, hear.) If the government proposal wan bad let it be rejected ; if it could be improved let that be done ; but do not let the aim and pretext of improving that proposal be made the excuse for violating those wider financial principles which were essenthd for the good administration of the coun t r y and the onaintenomos of its integrity. (Cheers.) Mr. HUBBARD rase amidst loud cries of " divide," and oa stating that be would not detain the house more than a quarter leuehter o that be re s umed an hoar, his he was gr se e at.eted with such • burst of Yr. DISRAELI thsught that the prised* laid down in the amendment of the boa. gentleman, as distinguished from the proposition of the government, was the right prin. ciple ; but be confessed that he bad to consider first of all the resolution which the house had already arrived at on the =sad he bad to remember the difficulties which be existed about taxing stock ia trade. Though the Chancellor of the Exchequer seemed to think those difficul ties light, they weighed much with him ; but at the aims time he entirely speed with the Chan cellor of the Exehiquer that after the anemia statement of the government and the opinion expressed by the boo" aoallsoolisa milt to be mods is that ousegoost. (" Ohs condemn upon pit property wee luta of the ric exteneivi been told egrets tc Petty, in QUI cl SeX say ova! lesvl isk4l lista tars said boa' iD adios ways sios, wifill Chan three semis, take She w c ne. thing It out pry. tike flat , al pc , able. If the the dad dad daty ha, fa his b sagas di. bat lam declaim Emile en was sel t:L n i Take tho Parative duty chi waa rpm of the el , being lc claim of that of 61,1 Paid ape tesurano