The Express. — London, England, 1853-06-02 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—WEDmEspas, JUNE I. 1 ho Howe met et soon. PRIVATE BUSINESS. '"' The London Dock Bill was read a third time and panted. The Lords' amendments to the Bognor Railway Bill were considered aad agreed to. The repurts of the select committees on the Newport, Aherg 8% cony, sod Hereford Railway ;Rooker's Dissbilitim ILI:101A. mid the Wirnpule, Wrestlingwovh, and Fulton Road Billeenere agreed to, and the bills ordered to be read a third time. PUBLIC BUSINESS, TRIALS IN CRIDIINAL CASES BILL. The order for th;ll4Co;l7e.;;lrlig iltZliber;;;;d, Mr. }WART presented several petitions in favour of the _ . Mr. 1. BUTT moved that the bill be reads second time. He explained that his otj•et was to establish • system under', which new trials might he demanded as • matter of right to criminal eases. In civil cases either party discontented with the verdict might carry his appeal to the highest tel. I bunal, hut in criminal cases the right of appeal depended on the discretion of the judge, however mistaken the jury ofght have been in point of fact, or the judge ia point of law. Surely that was a most anomalous state of the law, which while it gave security against the commission of in-' justice by the error of the judge nr of the jury in cases where property only was concerned, denied it in: cases '.here the sacrifice of personal liberty, or even of life was tosulveil, end which allowed an appeal against the decision of the Chief Justice of one of the sd,crior courts and • special jury, and refused it as against the decision of • recorder, or inferior local judge and a common jury. He would not now en•er into any description of the machinery by which he sought to ear/ out his übject—but looking at the lateness of the se.•em, and the great amount of business before the house, what h. proposed was to ask the house to affirm the prin ci;•le of the bill by reeding it • second time, and then to fifer it to • sel►ct committee, reserving the discussion until the measure cams back to the house from that tribunal. He proposed to confine the bill in the first inst•ses to be low'. bait of course if it should pass it would be necessary to introduce • similar bill for Eogland, consequently he must bo ondendod as submitting it to the house as an imperial qoestion. Mr. EWART had much pleasure in seconding the motion. The bill was similar io its general principle to one which had been introduced some years ago with his some on the back. Mr. J. PHILLIMORE did not anticipate any great ben-lit from the proposed measure. The evil to be guarded against in this country was much more the escape of t..e guilty than the punishment of the fawn:aut. The law as it stood allowed tit- judge wherever soy doubt of law or of het existed in his mind, to grant an appeal, which be thought sufficient to meet the ends of justice. Lord l'A L ME ItSTON had strong objections to the principle the hon. and learned gentleman wished to establish. Pu nishments were not iatlicted by way of vengeance on the criminal, but to protect society by de:erring others from the commission of crime; and there could be no greater advantage in the administration of criminal law than that it should be certain, and as rapid in its completion as was cos:instant with the ends of justice. (Hear, hear.) Let thaw 'amine what would be the working of the law, as altered by the propos , l bill. Even in civil actions, although the obligation of an oath was generally re- 'petted, troth was sometimes violated; but in cries' mil CYO., he was sorry to say, benevolent persons did not seem to have any conscience at all. (Laughter.) It was not long since a most respectable person, a member of the Society of Friends, attempted to bribe a witness, in order, by his absence at the trial, to screen an atrocious criminal , album whose guilt there could not be the slightest shadow of doubt. He had no doubt that, if this bill became law, every ease would be the subjoet of an appeal; persons would be sent round the country to get petitions signed, and a moss of perjury would, be had no doubt, be the result. Besides, there was great cruelty in the delay of molts' punishments. If the necessities of justice required capital punishment, humanity demanded that the unfortunate criminal's feelings should mot he unnecessarily lacerated, and prompt execution was the most humane policy. Again, if they allowed an appeal to the criminal, they should also give one to the prosecutor in assault cases and actious of a similar description, and the reni:t must inevitably be endless litigation and a manifest ob struction of justice. Having all these objections, then, and re memhering, besides, that a C3ollllis4loll was now sitting on the criminal law to which this matter might properly be r.f:rred, and by whom it could best be discussed, he thought he should beat be fulfilling his duty by moving t'..st the bill br read • second time that day six months. Mr. NUNN supported the bill, and cited the opinion of V.e chief baron in favour of the establishment of a court of appeal. Mr. NAPIER feared that the bill, instead of furthering the ends of justice, would tsmd to defeat them. Mr. M'MAHON supported the bill. Sir G. GREY said it was impossible to deny that the change proposed by the hon. and learned gentleman in the administration of the law was • very great and important change. It was • subject well worthy the consideration of the house, but he was confident it would be a most ha melons experiment, and that the adoption of the bill would tend to impair the efficiency of the administration of justice. After a few words from Mr. GEORGE, Mr. I. BUTT said after the speech of the right hon. baronet, he should not trouble the house with dividing on the bill. His motion fo: referring the hill to a select own inittee was nothing but another mode of conducting the in quiry suggested by the right hon. baronet. The motion that the hill be read • second time was then negatived, and the amendment that the bill be read • second time that day Me months was carried. JUDOS EXCLUSION BILL. !San you say 70111 hate political judges. (Cheers.) But even if I was to admit that there is something in the (auctions of the Master of the Rolls which makes it mew hark important that he should take no part in politics, should still vote against this bill, as inconsistent and times amoble. If it be true that the Master a the Rolls should he absent from political aseemblics; why not 'sends him from all political assemblies ? Yost do no such thing. You slat him out of this house, but you leave him to enter the House of Lords. Is not that • political assembly ? Is it not the feet that for several ages the judges have had their say, have enjoyed an ascendancy in that house ? Is it sot notorious that L.rd Hardwicke ruled that house, and that he bequeathed his power to another, an equally great man, Lord Mansfield ? And when his power decayed did it not devolve upon Lord Thurlow, and after his time, upon Lord Eldon ? Had not L ord Eldon so much power that he made and unmade ministers? He had great favour with his sovereign; he was regarded with 're motion by one party, and with hatred and aversion by another. When Lord Eldon's long domination ceased, other lords arose, both whip and tory, who divided the as cendancy amongst them. Some here may remember, and it was impossible for those who were present to forget, those first ten days of October, 1831. It was the most alarming and exciting political crisis that has ever occurred in my life. At that time the debates took place in the House of Lords which led to the rejection of the Reform Bill in that house. Ood forbid that we should ever have wee another crisis ! I shall 'ever hope to hew such • de bate again. It was undoubtedly a great and splen did display, and I dare say some of as here were of those who waited on that night to a late hour in the morning for the division, walking up sad down the Court of Requests to catch a few words of that wonderful conflict of oratory. There, on both sides mega pitched judaes in the front rank—Lord Brougham on one side, the Lord Chancellor ; Lord Lyndhurst on the other, Ike Lord Chief Baron. Mow eagerly we hung on their words! How eagerly they were read before noon on that day by hundreds of thousands in the country ! What fearful excitement they caused, followed, as they were, by the disasters of Nottingham and the sack of Bristol ! And this arena, the noble lord who hates political judges is not unwilling the Master of the Rolls should enter. His ob jection is not to the union of the political and judicial character—it is simply to the union of the judicial character with the character of a member of the house you an assembled in. A Master of the Rolla may—the noble lord has not the least objection to it—be the sole head, the leader of a great party ; be may use al his powers of oratory and all his powers of sophistry, to enlist the passions and to mislead the understanding of the senate. But he must not do it in this room. He must go a few hundred yards off. He must m "my lords" and not " Mr. Speaker, and then the nobl y e lord will be perfectly willing that he should do it. But 1 am understating the case and greatly under stating it, for the union of the judicial and political character in the other house is not a mere accidental thing. The fact is not only that a judge may be made a peer, bat that all the peers are necessarily judges. Would any foreigner, who had been admitted to the gallery of this house, when the noble lord declared his hatred, his abhor rence of political judges, laying down that we ought to make a change in the law, in order to avoid the junction of the political and the judicial character, would any foreigner ima glee that the other house of parliament is the supreme:assem bly, the assembly to which go appeals from all the courts of equity and law, from the courts of Scotland and of Ireland, from this very Master of the Rolls himself ? Is it not per fectly clear that, if that principle of the law be sound, we ought to begin, not with the Master of the Rolls, but with the House of Lords ? The court above must be more Important than the court below ; and, if the Master of the Bails goes wroog, the House of Lords must correct him, but ff the Home of Lords go wrong, who is to correct them ? The noble lord is perfectly content that their lord eldps deny I the morning sit as judges on questions while affect the liberty, the property, and the character of mom um amongst us—should decide them in the last re sort, sad pronounce decisions which are absolutely binding as all the realm; sad that in the afternoon these same lords *odd meet as peliticions, and debate, and sometimes pretty @lmply, sometimes in such a way that if you, sir, were anossu them, you would call them to order. They ma disease geoid's@ respecting clergy reserves in Canada, Irish education, the government of India, to all these the noble lord has no objection whatever. Here, then, you have a judicial assembly, polities combined with judicature, and if we pus this bill, it will probably be taken up to the House of Lords by a person having judicial functions. It will be taken out of his hands by a man who is a cabinet minister, bed at the same time the highest judge in the realm. And this bill, this mummery, for the purpose of purifying the administration of justice, if justice requires purification, is utterly ineffectual. It is effectual for one, and only for one peep..., so well stated by my hon. friend , that of degrading ad weakening the House of Commons. This is not the first time that a similar attempt has been made. More than 150 years ago there wu a great outcry, and a just one, spinet the notion of placemen in parliament. The evil was great, and well-intentioned men, as doubtless the noble lord is who proposed this bill,proposed•remedy which would have produced an evil greater still. They proposed that no person who held any ether under the crown should sit in the House of Commons. That provision was not to take effect till after the succession of the House of Hanover. Happily, before that succession took place, the provision was repealed. It is easy to see what the effect would he. It is easy to say it would have purified the parliamentary atmosphere; that the influence of the crown, which was so fatal to the liberty of the people, would be lessened. They said that the servants of the nation should be the servants of the nation alone ; they asked how it was possible that a who was the servant of the crown should also be the faithfulperson guardian of the people? That argument was I specious, but no more. The effect would have been to depress that branch of the legislature which sprung from the people, and to elevate the heredi tary aristocracy. All the ministers of the crown must ne cessarily have been peers. All the eminent members of the House of Commons would have made ittheirobject to attain the peerage. As soon as any man, by his eloquence or his knowledge of business, brought himself into distinction, if he was selected to be Chancellor of the Exchequer, or Secre tary of State, or First Lord of the Admiralty—no matter what—would instantly have turned his back on what thus would have been emphatically the lower nom*, and have gone to that house in which alone he could display his abi lities. Walpole, the first Pitt, the second Pitt, Fox, Can ning, Peel—all the men whose names are inseparably asso ciated with the House of Commons—all those men whose names are mentioned with pride, and of whom and whose conquests we think when we pate through St. Stephen's Chapel—all these men would have begun peen. The whole conflict would have been transferred from the House of Commons to the House of Lords. It would have been impossible for the House of Commons, left without one single statesman, to give, as it has always given, and I hope always will give, a gene ral direction to the policy of the realm. All Biscay* would have been looking for declara tions of our policy from a Pitt or a Fox, not in the House of Commons, but in the Hesse of Lords, and we, the Com mons, should have bees left to look after turnpike-roads and canals. That is thespirit, the effect, in which we are called on now to proceed. It may be said that the tenden cies of this bill are not se ostensive; but still they are very serious. The Massey ef this bill, and of all similar bills, ' Is* make this low decidedly less efficient than it was enee—duidedly less eldest than the House of Lords is sew, for the Imo important purposes of a legis lative assembly. 1 bear tide question argued as if the only thisg that a great judge could possibly do is the Illoust of Commons should De to put out ems en el nem and bring in another. It is not so. Party struggles there always have been and always will twin abandsses,but there are provinces in legis lation which are quite reeseved hem the speedos of party, and in which a great *lse might weellee to his country most admirable sonless, and some to himself im perishable fame, and if ever there was a time when a jurist was needed, when • jurist was likely t. be appreciated in this house, it la the present time. Re observant man can fail to perceive that there is in the rails mind a penal, and grown; an earnest and at the sees time a moat rea sonable and ;ober duke to extend law seform. I hope and believe that some of the sessions ohs* use approaching will to a great @swat be essopied by a sessideration of this gam tics of law reform, sad In the cossiandlea of such a= Asa use mesa is so well Stied he bat on ossfel and d Clipontosea sprightoodenlightenedjedge. And tin is nt whom we are called opal to shut the dons dew hesse . agaisse the lent greet judicial functionary whom the butemj leskiation of SWIM parliaments has left tons here. (Chem) Is the isseatine the other house is open. The other pent jolielal Miser, the Judge of the Admiralty, who is excluded frost eittisa Is this house by the inure mentality of the noble lord, may sit is that house. The 1.-ird Chancellor, the Chief Justice*, the Chief Baron, the Lords Justices, the Master of the Rolls, sad the Vice-Chan cellors, may sit in that house, and here you are driving out the very last man who gives judicial dignity to this house. I rem very far from saticipating any conflict with the House of Lords,but I ask you to give us consequence in our rivalry with them. I was much struck the other day—l do not know whether the hon. member for Montrose is in his place—but when I came down the other day to vote against this bill, it did not come on in consequence of a bill respecting the combination of workmen being before the house. I believe the hon. mem-1 bee for Montrose is decidedly favourable to this bill ; but I was amused to hear the hon. gentleman press the house to pass the bill then under discussion, alleging as a reason that we knew nothing about it. " Send it," he said, " to the House of Lords, them are judges there, and they will on whether it is right or wrong.' (Cheers.) Dud anybody ever hear that a great legislative assembly was ever before salted upon to abdicate its functions in such a way as that ? nog is it not an extraordinary thing that a gentleman so nealuus far the popular part of the constitution should in a matter so deeply concerning the interests of a great body of our constituents, say that we should be content by disply registering whatever the judges of the Home of Lords may please to do? And is it not a strings thing that OM deficiency of this house in one most important respect should be increased by a propos fur shutting out learning and ability ? But then it is mid that the blaster of the Rolls has duties which are hardly compatible with a seat in this house ? It is said we ought strictly to maintain the principle of division of labour, and that we ought not to let him spend his time here. lf this be an argument of any weight it is an argument for keeping him out of the House of Lords as well as out of the House of Commons. But I deny that it is of any weight whatever. I say the princi ple of the division of labour is no doubt of great value and importance, hut it is one which can most easily be abused. You can hardly carry it tno far in mere mechanics, but you can easily carry it too fax in the higher operations uf labour, and in matters of intellect. In pin making, I do not doubt, as Aaron Smith mid, that a pin will be better made if con man cuts the wire, ano ther nabs the Issatlouother rolls it up sad another shapeas On the order of the dy fartk•third reading of this bill, Mr. DRUMMOND said this was a reform bill brought forwardon the other side of the house, and with every fault that every reform bill bad hitherto bad in it. On that (the government) side of the home, they had got motions to exclude from the ►ow all property, and on the other to exclude all brains. (Laughter.) Tneir notions of forming the house was to make it • mass of pauperism and ignorance. (Laughter.) That was socialism. When they had made that house a place for pawns without property and without intellect, the moan they fell into the hands of a military despot the better. lie moved that this bill be read a second time that day six months. — Mr. T. B. MACAULAY—I shall vote, with all heart, for the amendment moved by my hon. friend.my never gave a vote ismy life with more entire confides* that I was right, and I must say, I think it hardly credi table to the house that a bill of such a character should have bee. allowed to reach this stage before it was opposed. On what ground is this bill brought forward ? la it brought forward on the ground—which is the only ground on which I could conceive conservatives could ever support it— is it brought forward on the ground that the present state of the law has produced any practical inconvenience ? That Is utterly disclaimed by all who support the bill, and I will go further sad sey that ae single rause daring the experience of egos has news fee our emlading the Master of the Rolls from having a mat in this lease. The cam of Master of the Rolls and this hew emu meaced their mistime at the same thm—eartaiali e t b a tie same century. Poe WO years the Mester el the has beset eligible for a mat is this house. Te ge _leek se farther than the em Masters we have lid in litec them amoagst as, I S.d the names of Jolty% Memo, Kenyon, Pepper, Harden, Sir William Great, ete Saba Lee" Sir John Copley, sad the present Mast* ed dos Bonk Sir Julia Homily. (Hear, hear.) And M has name been said, in reference to any one the Melliigniilmed power ageuthat their parliamentary datlesmode them lees elleient la the performance of their judieudidadon Is it, above all, fur emeervative politicians to preps, to alter • system which has elided for sin centuriesr sad opiate whitb it use never alleged that it ever in any l. esM gillikeed any single isometry/lasses, solely beams t fees art hoops to square with as extract c4 ot t iong. What is thiseheisest principle ? This abstract p is, that it feat*** in ieparate political from judicial " MAW, le the weed," eays the noble lord sepasies who brae& la this (Lord ), " is se WNW se • pliant jedp." The union ef peßtias aadjedimlnie is se emlneey so per ciple, thee eeeeetbsa it sseastbe head thee that pip has produced any gemidenseffeet. Yet, yea not be bus to that theory *erased plaelple. well, now, I mp that I me. triunes UP bill IMPest wreathed. the mesa pitiable that ever w d ==s4-411m mist beeaspethic fees that ever was a (Cbstea.) If the motile teed considers the canine:the political cad Pahl institutions of this country, be will find the political and judicial character so condaimed, oe interwoven from the top to the bottom, that the NB= iehiii be proposes to make will be a mere iniiai tasked drew It has bees asked, and with jars tics, if the Master of the Rolls should be ex- I eluded, why net the Recorder of the City of London? I should be eniespely sorry to see the Iteeorder of London excluded from fhb house; but I must say, the reasons for excluding Lim nee ten times as potent as those for exclud• ing the Master *the Rolls. Bat why exclude the Re corder for lambs alone ? Why not exclude all recorders— why let the deineen of Quarter Sessions sit in this house ? I w anemia's%) say there are much more stringent rea sons for escheats( the chairman of Quarter Sessions then ,r escludiai tits Miner of the Rolls. I have attended Quarter iferriona I have seen a man presiding over Quarter fieesioas, a man of very eminent ability, ea able and upright judge, but • member of parliament, a keen politician, • decided part, mas, a man who made a motion to upset • ministry. He rose to • seat in the cabinet. Thu distinguished member of parliament, who was tae head of the "Blue" party (as it was called, I think, in r: , ,it country), would have had to try, if an election riot had occurred, say of the Orange voters. He took a coons part at the time of the Queen's trial, for n= was hooted by a mob in London, sad I am not sure whether he was not pelted ; and then he went down to him Misty to try persons for breaking the windows of penes, who fat not lighted them up in honour tf the acquittal. noble lord would leave him to be a member of this house, and yet would exclude the Master of the Rolls. Whenever there has been national dneonteet, whenever there has been a great disposition to outrage and turbu lence, you have had the whole democratic press crying out at the chairmen of quarter sesai,..ns ; the unpaid magis• trate, were not to he truqed in administering the law. So loud were the outcries at one time that Mr. Canning said the worst sign of the time was the growing distrust of ma gistrates. And yet you propose to leave 40 or SO gentle men clothed with these functions in this assembly, and say that a judge, neither against whom, nor against any of his p re detamom, was ever raised the voice of calumny, that thelused their judicial power with a political aim, net ed * this how; you szslivis his be. THE EXPRESS, THURSDAY EVENING, JUNE 2. 11153. the point—but I do not believe that hLchael Angelo woukl have bees a greater painter if he had not been a sculptor— ! do not believe that Sir lout Newton would have been a Stealer esperimental philosopher if be had not been a ma thematician and a logician— I do not believe that a man would he a WO,lll legislator because he is a great judge. On the contrary, I believe there is as close and intimate a coanution between the luislator and the judge as between 'the anatomist and the surgeon, and that it would be as ab surd to exclude the judge from legislation as to exclude the surgeon from anatomy. lam happy to say I have autho• rity for this, an authority to which the hon. gentleman the member for Montrose perhaps will pay more respect than I do—l mean that of Mr. Bentham. Of Bentham as a metaphysician I have no high opinion, but I look on him as a judicial writer as of great author ity. I find in his work on Judicial Organisation a chapter in which he speaks of the pluralities of judges. lie strongly object* to • judge being anything but ajudge, with one single exception. " Ajudge," he says, "ought to be permitted to sit in the representative assembly, for the best school for a legislator is the judicial bench; and legislative ability is so rarely found that it would be madness in any society to throw them away when they ore accessible." It is said that in order to get a seat in this house a man must resort to meant which are unworthy of the dignity of a judge. The noble lord spoke formerly of unseemly jtllifi cations at elections. I wish from the bottom of my heart that unseemly jollifications were the worst means to which hon. gentlemen resort in order to get a seat in this house. I should be sorry that a Muter of the Rolle, in order to procure a seat, should appear at the tavern table. I should be still more sorry if any Muter of the Rills should resort to other means of corruption. I think the Master of the Rolls ought to be most scrupulous. I can answer, and long friend ship and intimate acquaintance entitles me to speak with confidence, that if ever the present Master of the Rolls enters this house again he will be brought in by different means from those by which he was turned out. (Cheers.) But let me ask, do we pretend to say this, that no person can come into the House of Commons except by means which ate inconsistent with the dignity of the judicial cha racter? If so, it becomes us to put our house in order. How is it possible that any country can long prosper if the assembly on which all its dear est interline depend, the assembly which can by a single vote give direction to our every policy, colonial, com mercial, or financial, can be entered only by means which lower the character. (Cheers.) In what manner did Sir William Scott lower his character by entering the house as member for the University of Oxford. or Sir John Copley by becoming member for the University of Cambridge ? But it is not necessary to speak of universities. It would be most unjust, and indeed of all members in this house it would be most unfaithful, in me not to say that a de lioacy and liberality of sentiment which would do honour to any university may be found among the 101. house holders of great cities. Need we go further into the sub ject than to look to our own chair. It was of as much im portance, sir, that you at the lasteleetion should maintain the gravity and dignity of your character as it could be for the Master of the Rolls. It would have been impossible for you on that occasion to have permitted the slightest indecorum without doing grievous injury to your public utility and character. If the great county which does you the honour to send you as their representative could do so without im proper conduct being resorted to—if you can look back without shame to your election, what reason have we to doubt that other great constituencies would be as just to any judge as to you? I have notsthe slightest doubt that constituencies might and would send a judge to the Home of Commons without requiring anything on his part incon sistent with the decorum which belongs to his station. It ' , is said that the law is inconsistent. My advice is, we have entered on a bad course; let us stop it and re trace it. The time is not far distant when we must reconsider the constitution of this house. I think on that occasion it will be the duty of the government most care fully to consider the grounds on which it is determined who is to be excluded front this house, and who is to be admitted. The law is in •• singularly unsatisfactory state. The law is that no person can sit in this house who holds an office created sines a particular day—l think the 25th of October, 1705. The effect is most incounnieet. For example, there can be only two Secretaries of State and only two Under-Secretaries of State in this house. If there were two Secretaries of State in this house, and a vacancy took place in the foreign secretaryship, although a member of this house might be the best man to hold that office, he could not have it. You must give him the Admiralty, or something of that sort, and give the office of foreign secretary to a member of the House of Lords who may be more fit for the Admiralty. Again, the Postmaster-General cannot sit in this house. He is generally in the cabinet, and, with the single excep tion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, there is no public functionary whom it would be so convenient to have in this house. I hope and trust that wh he constitution of this house is reconsidered, these things will be taken into consideration. But to speak of the judges, my principle is simple. I would admit any judge whom the people would select, unless there were some plain reasons why you should not admit him. There is a plain reason for excluding the fifteen judges of the common law courts. They sit in the House of Lords, though they do not vote, and if you continue the House of Lords as the supreme court of error, the assistance of judges is necessary. That assistance is furnished by those fifteen judges. There we will leave them, but it would be utterly inconsistent with our convenience and with our dignity to have any member here who was at the beck and call of the other house. The same principle applies to the Scotch and to the Irish judges, for the obvious reason that they can not possibly perform their duties in those countries and be members of this house. I would certainly leave the door open to the Master of the Rolls, and I would open the door to the Judge of the Admiralty, who has been so absurdly excluded. I would suffer those eminent judges who are kept out of this house, not by any peculiar act but by the operation of the act of Anne—l mean the Lords Justices sad the Vies-Chancellors—to sit in this house, if they could find constituencies who would send them here. In that way I am perfectly certain that we should add to the credit of this great representative assembly, with the credit of which the credit of all representative assemblies in the whole world is wound up, and we shall render ourselves more efficient for the din/tame of all our duties. But whether the more extensive change that I wish should or should not be adopted, I can see no reason whatever for entertaining the bill of the noble lord. I would ask the conservatives on that side of the house whether they are prepared to make a change in a system which has lasted for generations, and from which they do not themselves pretend that the smallest inconvenience has arisen. I would address myself to the liberal members, and I ask them whether they think it right to lower the character and diminish the effi ciency of that branch of the legislature which springs from the people. As to myself, I wish to unite the character of liberal and conservative, and in both characters I shall give my vote most cordially for the motion of my hon. friend. (Loud cheers from all parts of the house.) Lord HOTHAM briefly replied. Mr. HUMS said that he would support the bill on the ground that it was incompatible with a proper discharge of the duties of the Master of the Rolls that he should have • seat in that kouse. (Hear.) They had appointed judge after judge in order to relieve the Court of Chancery of the amount of business which it had to perform ; and it was quite inconsistent now to add to the functions of those judges the duties of members of parliament. (Hear.) The house then divided : For the third reading Against COMBINATION OF WORKMEN BILL. On the motion for renewing the adjourned debate on this bill, Lord PALMERSTON said that he, on the part of the go vernment, would not object to the principle of the bill, which lamed the freedom of all parties to, combine for peaceable and legal pus poxes. His only objection to the bill Iss it stood was, that it might legalise that system of quiet sad peaceable intimidation by which poor men who were in plait distress might be prevented from working, and driven into combinations which otherwise they bad no vish to join. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, what he proposed was that the bill should be read a third time now, but that it should he then postponed for • fortnight, for the purpose of considering whether the bill could be amended so as to free it from that objection. (Hear.) Mr. DRUMMOND having assented to the arrangement the bill was reeks third time, and the next stage postponed for a fortnight. ABSCONDING DEBTORS (IRELAND) BILL. This bill was discherged. CONSOLIDATED FUND (4,000,0001.) BILL. This bill was read • second time. HACKNEY CARRIAGES (METROPOLIS) BILL. This bill was read • third time. Mr. HINDLEY said he had a new clause to move for the purpose of providing a better clue of carriages for ladies, but he was informed that he could not move such a clause on the grimed of its being an addition to the taxes. On the motion of Lord 1). STUART, the following amend ments were agreed to: In elaue 2, page 2, line 14, after the word "notice," insert "in writing." At the end of line 14 add " which notice shall be personally served on such proprietor, or deli dat his usual place of resi dence." In clause 3, page 2, line 33. after the word " him," insert " as bereinbefore required." Mr. PIGOTT moved the following amendment as an addi tion to clause 2: "Provided, however, that in ease of the refusal or suspension of any such license as aforesaid, it shall be lawful for the proprietor of any such stage or hack ney carriage, or other persons applying for such license, or subjected to such suspension, to appeal from the decision of the commissioners of police to the metropolitan police ma gistrate for the time being sitting at the police office at Bow- Street." Sir R. INOLIS seconded the motion. He thought that there ought to be some appeal in a case where so megh pro perty was concerned. Mr. WHALLEI supported the motion. Mr. FITZROY said that this matter had been discussed before, and he had only to repeat that the amendment, if carried, would reader the bill nugatory. Lord D. STUART supported the amendment. I The house divided : Fur the amendment Against 79-37 Lord A. VANE moved an ernendirent to substitute 4d. ' for 61. where cabmen were detained. Mr. FITZROY thought that M. was little enough where a cab was detained 15 minutes. (Hear.) The amendment was withdrawn. There were a few other amendments, which there was not time to decide upon, six o'clock having arrived. PAIRS ON MR. MOORes MOTION ON IRISH CHURCH. REV EN CE.—Mr. Vincent Scully, for, with Colonel Tynte, against; Mr. Chaplin, for, with Mr. Kirk, against; Mr. Ansley Pellatt, f or, K. J. B. Smith, for, with Mr. J. E. 'Vivian, spinet. the eraneoo. TO • eteeoud Ultimo The Eames,. tesstatatae tbe WM. neniPel "faults," pubtlabed every Tuesday sad Friday eight. to Wes for post • int tlessestsiatso•ed tor . 4 The Express," Loudon !Issuing paper, neat be at the Otis, l 0 Bouverbs4drest. by Two *Week ea Use Oyof peddiestiosh [DENTS. HIOR WATER AT LONDON BRIDGE. Tiao Der —Meralse. II I lin Afternooa. 1I n Teorozooor —Morning. lb. ..........Afternoon. Ob. G. LONDON, THURSDAY, JUNE 2. IN the list of Notices of Motion for to-night in the House of Commons we find " Mr. MITCHELL in Committee on Customs to move that the Duty on Raisins, not of British Possessions, be reduced to 10s. per cwt., as proposed in the first edition of the New Tariff." This subject is important, not only in a free-trade sense, but also as a question of governmental good faith. Having before him the facts furnished by the deputa tion upon the Raisin Duty, we do not see how the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER can do other wise than reduce the duty as originally proposed. The question is not one merely of consumption and revenue, but of good faith with merchants and dealers. On the faith of the reduction, contracts have been made for imports from the continent amounting to several thousand tons. No doubt strong representations must have been made to Mr. GLADSTONE before he was induced to take the very unusual course of rescinding a reduc tion that had been for some weeks before the world, and which had been received by the public, not only as a boon, but as one of the items of compensation for the continuance of unpopular taxes. But even had such representations been founded upon facts instead of most utter fallacies, the circumstances must have been strong in deed to justify Mr. GLADSTONE in throwing such heavy losses upon individuals as must result from his rescinding the promised reduction. Had the change been made within a few days of the original announcement, the only evil might have been a very general disappointment; but it is quite a different matter when three weeks are allowed to elapse between the duty being set down at 10.., and re placed at 15s. 9d. Three weeks are sufficient, by the help of steamers, railways, and the electric telegraph, to speed com mercial intelligence over half the world—not a region in which raisins are produced, or a town in Europe or the United States in which there is any stock on hand, but has long since heard of the reduc tion, and on the faith of it made preparations for meeting our increased consumption. There is no waiting now, either amongst producers or merchants, for any particular reduction of price, to establish an increased consumption. In the last few years the lesson has been thoroughly learned, that in England price is the only limit of consumption, and no sooner is a duty reduced than new supplies are hunted up in all directions. How diligently our merchants have gone to work in the article of raisins is shown by the fact that whilst this time last year the stock in Lon don did not exceed 700 tons, and had fallen by Sep tember to 200, it is no* upwards of 6,800 tons, with several thousand tons besides actually bargained for to arrive. These raisins have been bought at prices on which, at the 15s. 9d. duty, there would be a heavy loss. They would not have been bought but for the announcement that the duty payable upon them would be 10s., and we cannot imagine that Mr. GLADSTONE, when made aware of this fact, will for a moment hesitate about confirming the reduction he first promised, and now proposes to withdraw. We owe our present extraordinary stock of raisins to the general belief that they would come into con sumption in the place of currants. The price has, however, so far kept them above the means of the working classes; and it is an ascertained fact that if the duty be not reduced, the greater proportion of the fruit now in England will be re-exported. A shilling difference in price is sufficient to deter mine the current of supply to us or to the north of Europe. The retail grocers, it they could buy raisins fitted for the ordinary use of the working classes, so as to enable them to sell them at three pence per pound, would advertise them by circulars and in their shop windows,—make them the means of attracting custom in other articles, and rapidly succeed in pushing an immensely increased quantity into consumption. And with the more facility, from the fact that last year the work ing classes were obliged to give up the use of cur rants to such an extent that the consumption fell off by more than 4,500 tons ; and the diminution would have been considerably greater, but that in the early part of the year the grocers did not raise the price upon' their stocks in hand, as an advance in proportion with the wholesale market would at once have stopped their sales. The great mass of people, im mediately upon a rise of price, give up their pur chases, but very gladly resume them in increased quantities upon a fall. Nothing, therefore, can be more certain than that at such a price as the 10s. duty would enable them to sell at, our grocers would speedily clear off the existing stock of raisins, large as it is, and swell the revenue by the duty on 6,600 tons, not a sixth part of which would otherwise come into consumption in this country. It is a curious fact that the damage to the currant crop last year has been the means of injuring the quality of a large quantity of raisins. Immediately the currant blight became known in the raisin coun tries, extraordinary efforts were made to prepare the raisins for our market. The fruit was gathered too early, was too hastily cured, and too soon packed. The result is that a very considerable weight of raisins are not in a condition to keep for any length of time, and must either be consumed here at once, or at once be sent abroad for consumption. The quantity in dde state is probably not less than 4,000 tons. Sup. pose the merchant's price here, duty paid, is 275. to 28s. per cwt., if the ss. 9d. be taken off, they can of course be sold from 225. 3d. to 235. 3d. The dealers are always satisfied to sell at an additional shilling to the retailers, who would thus have the fruit at 235. to 245. It would be their interest to push the sales u fast as possible—cheap raisins would bring custom to their shops. They would be content to get at the rate of 28s. per cwt., and would therefore sell at 3d. per lb., and on a consumption once got up at that price the increase would be steady. Nor does it seem that there would be any difficulty as to meeting the demand. Sardinia, Sicily, the Roman States, and other parts can, it seems, supply us with almost any quantity of low-priced raisins; but at the price , such fruit must be sold at in the shops under the los. 9d. duty, people will not have them, whilst under the 108. they would be largely used, and would yield a steady and considerable income to the Exchequer. In evidence that low-priced raisins are in demand, we hava the fact that the last Smyrna boat brought no less than 110 tons of what are called black raisins, and that of the same sort there are on the way 200 tons more in the steamer shortly to arrive, whilst last year the entire import did not exceed perhaps 100 tons. The fruit is small, but good, and has hitherto been chiefly used, instead of currants, in the Royal Navy. Under the reduced duty it would be sold at a very low price, and of these again almost any e.,,an tities are to be had; but at the high duty they cannot be expected to come much into use—the high duty in short, sending to foreign markets the fruit which the working classes of England need. On every ground, therefore, of commercial expedi ency, financial policy, and justice, the CHANCELLOR of the Exuma:En would take the moat prudent, popular, and equitable course in reducing the duty to 10s. as he at first proposed. A NUMBER of very curious facts are afforded us by a long looked-for public document just given out by the Census-office. Rather more than two years have elapsed since the day selected for the last national enumeration of the people of Great Britain, and that period we may assume was needful for the completion of the volumes now before us. Indeed, a mere glance through the books is enough to show that if their preparation has been slow, the results are very elaborate, as well as interesting and valuable. Every parish of course finds its proper place on the roll, with the number not only of its inhabitants in 1931, but also in each of the past decennial periods of the present century. The num ber of houses in each portion of the couatry is likewise given, with a large amount of original information illustrating the relations of popula tion to other circumstances —as, number of per- sons to a house ; number of children in families; number of persons enjoying abundant house room; numbers subjected to deficient house room, and so on. Of course, the great fact, which forms thesgroundwork whence all the rest may be said to spring, is the total of persons forming else people of Great Britain. The number of these on the night the Census was taken—the 31st of March, 1851—was twenty-one millions one hundred and twenty-nine thousand nine hundred and sixty-seven (21,129,967). After stating this chief fact resulting from the labours of the Census takers, they say with great truth: It is difficult to form-any just conception of these large aumbers, for men are rarely seen in large masses, and when seen their numbers are seldom known. It is only by collect ing, as in other cases of measuring, the units into masses, these masses into other masses, and thus ascending progres sively to an unit comprehending all others, that the mind attainsany adequate notion of such a multitude as • mil lion of men. Thus from • file of ten persons, which the eye takes in at one view, the mind readily conceives ten such groups or • hundred, and again ascending to ten hundred or • thousand ; to ten thousand or a myriad ; to ten myriads or a hundred thousand ; and to ten hundred thousand or a million—arrives at a conception of the twenty-one millions of people which Great Britain con tained within its shores on the night of March 30, 1851, Another way of arriving at this conception is by considering the number, in relation to space ; as 4,840 persons might stand without crowding on the 4,840 square yards in an acre, 3,097,600 persons would cover a square mile (equal to 840 aeries) ; and the twenty-one millions of people in Great Britain, allowing a square yard to each person,would there fore cover seven square miles. Doubting whether this statement conveys a com plete idea of the number of people in Great Britain, the Report attempts another mode of illustration: The building of the Great Exhibition in London en closed 18 acres, and 60,000 or 60,000 persons often entered it daily ; on the 9th of October 9341 persons filled its floor and galleries, and could almost be surveyed by the eye at one time. Of 100,000 persons a general notion can be formed by ►ll those who witnessed this spectacle at the Crystal Palace ; it is a number greater than were ever, at one time, in a building covering 18 serer, but somewhat less than the greatest number (109,915) that ever entered it on one day, October 7th. The population then of Great Britain, including men, women, and children, exceeds 211 hundred thousands; and at the rate of a hundred thou sand a day, could have passed through the building in 211 days ; the English—as they are 169 hundred thousand—in 169 days ; the Welsh, 10 hundred thousand, in 10 days; the Scotch, 29 hundred thousand, in 29 days ; the 143,126 Islanders in the British Seas, in less than a day and a half; the 162,490 soldiers and seamen absent from the country when the census wu taken, in less than two days. The population of Great Britain in 1801 amounted in round numbers to 109 hundred thousands; and 102 of the 211 hundred thousands in 1831, or as many as could pass through such a place in 102 days, would represent the increase of the people of Great Britain in half a century. These two extracts give perhaps a tolerably vivid idea of the amount of the family of JOHN Bell.. But our numbers are far from being our chief cha racteristic, for when we recollect the influence now-a-days exercised by England all over the globe, the amount of our population seems absolutely trifling as compared to our action on the destinies of the world. Passing however from these considerations, let us note some of the Curiosities of the Census. First, we have the comparative numbers of the sexes. Here the ladies are seen at once to be in a large majority. The females exceed the males by more than half a million. Excluding from calculation the men absent from England as soldiers, sailors, and so on, there are to every hundred females a fraction more than ninety five males—the excess of women over men being now in very much the same proportion as it was at the Census just half a century ago. Of the children born alive the number of boys considerably exceeds the number of girls-104 boys being born to 100 1 girls. This fact, compared with the one men tioned just before it, tends to show how much greater is the risk of early death, or removal beyond the seas, amongst males than females. The disparity of the sexes is greatest, it seems, in Scotland. The rate of increase of popula tion during the half century has been nearly 93; per cent. "It is shown (says the report) that the half of a generation of men of all ages passes away in thirty years, and that more than three in every four of their number die in half a century. The English popula tion, owing to its rapid increase, contains an ex cessive number of children and young people, and will live longer than a generation normally constituted. At the present rates of mortality a few of the present generation (a few, only, out of 21 millions) will live a century, and survive the year 1951." The estimate is, that nearly five millions of those now living will survive for fifty years, and see the advent of the twentieth century. What an ex perience of human progress is likely to be theirs! Judging by the last half century, and supposing the past rate of increase to be maintained, the population of Great Britain will double itself every fifty-two years. Should our present prosperity continue, the necessaries of life remain abundant, and labour meet a ready market and liberal remuneration, our num bers will undoubtedly be doubled in a shorter period,—provided always no fatal choleras or other pestilences step in to spread untimely death through the land. " The numbers of the population are increased by an abundance of the necessaries of life, and reduced by famines, epidemics, and public calamities, affecting the food, industry, and life of the nation. The pestilences of the middle ages— the famine, the influenza, and the cholera of modern times—are examples of one class of these agencies; the security and freedom which England has latterly enjoyed are, examples of the beneficial effect of another class of influences, not only on the happiness of the people, but also on the numbers which the country can sustain at home, and can send abroad to cultivate, possess, and inherit other lands." The first, most intimate, and perhaps most important community, is the family, not considered as the children of one parent, but as the persons under one head ; who is the occupier of the house, the householder, master, hue band, or father ; while the other members of the family are the wife, children, servants, relatives, visitors, and pf.rsons constantly or accidentally in the house. The head of the family supports and rules the 1 . .11114 —occupies the house. " Family," in the sense which it has acquired in England, may he considered the social unit of which parishes, towns, counties, and the nation, are comrosed. But, in its essential sense, a family, though generally com posed of the several members described above, may con silt only of a widower, children, and servant., or a bache. ler and servants; or, finally, of a single woman, occupyi ng a small cottage. Mr. ltickmsn adverts to the difficulty of defining, in an act of parliament, the degree of coonexion between the head of a family and lodgers who reside under the same roof ; and states that the overseers or school masters who took the censuses (ISOI -11-21.31) were informed "that those who use the same kitchen and board toitether are to be deemed members of the same family." he proceeds to say, " even then remains the question whe ther a single person inhabiting a house solely, or lodging, but not boarding, in another man's house, is to be deemed a family. This admits only of an unsatisfactory reply, • that it cannot be otherwise,' and by this negative para. logism is decided in the affirmative." A lodger, then, who did not board in the house in which he lived, was by this decision " a family." From individuals we pass—with the authors of the Report—to Families, to learn the fact that " 1,815,567 new lines of English families hare been established in the country in fifty years." An amusing illustration of the difficulties of census-taking is afforded in the division of the subject. To class men under families in strict statistical order, we must be able to answer the question—" What is family ?" Hear what tho registrars say about this : Whether a family can be constituted by a person who lives alone in a house, or a lodger who either boards is a family, or oily occupies the chamber in which he sleeps, and, as in Paris or London, lives in the daytime at coffee• houses, clubs, or other places, may be disputed. Can a single person constitute a family, and thus "be head and members at once l" may be asked as well as the other questions : " Can a single family eonstitute g town ?" " Can a single town constitute a state i" In the case of the family it has been decided in the affirmative, by taking the occupier of a house, or even a door of a house, as the representative and equivalent of a distinct family; and it is evident that under this definition a son married, and living in his father's house, forms a part of his father's family. _ _ And here, for the present, we must close our notice of the cumbersome, but valuable and curiously in teresting new volumes of our Census-takers. TURKEY. While the question of peace or war hangs in sus pense, the capabilities of Turkey for resisting attack are naturally an obj ect of interest. In th e Pr, .54e of yesterday, M. E. Girardin discusses some of the difficult conditions under which an attack by Russia would have to be carried out. Having come to the conclusion that Russia will not risk her navy against the combined forces of France and England, be says: " She must then prefer an expedition by land, as in 1828 and 1829. But here an important point is to be noticed. Iu 1828 Russia, advancing on Adrianople, was acting in harmony with France, England, and Prussia. In 1853 Russia, marching on Constantinople, would do so in opposition to France and England. Can we doubt that the sup- Port of these powers would double the courage of the Turkish army and the force of the Massalman popu lations? Constantinople has barracks which may rival the finest of those of France or Russia. Two of them, situated in the environs of the capital, are really entrenched camps, and capable of sheltering an entire army. One of these two barracks is called Daoud Pacha, the other Damis Tehiftlich. It was in the latter that, during the late war in 1829, the Sultan planted his standard and announced his resolution to bury him self beneath the ruins of his empire. The military arsenal called Topkhana contains a manufactory of arms. The ramparts which surround the city con sist of a double wall with fosses and towers capable of a formidable defence. If the Bosphorus presents an opening at which a Russian fleet may arrive from the Crimea in 48 hours, the fortifications raised at the entrance of the Bosphorus, among which the fort of Roumilly Hisser is distinguished, render the en trance of the fleet both difficult and perilous, and the coast offers no favourable spot for effecting a disem barkation. The nearness of Constantinople would make it easy to send a force to resist an attempt by land, during which we cannot suppose that the fleets of France and Russia would be irate." As soon as we assume the combined intervention of the French and English fleets, we must give up the hypothesis of an attempted landing at the en trance of the Bosphorus, and limit ourselves to that of a new occupation of Adrianople, as in 1829. The city of Adrianople has a population of 100,000, a citadel and an arsenal. From Adrianople to Con stantinople the distance is 170 kilometres, or 42 leagues; but a Russian regiment, destined to a long march, cannot accomplish more than 20 kilo metres per diem, marching two days and resting on the third, without increasing the risk of having to leave a number of men on the road. The Russian soldier is fed on hard black bread, and carries on his back a considerable weight in arms, ammunition, and equipments. The official report of the campaign in 1828.1829 shows that the Russian army lost one hundred and fifty thousand men from fatigue and sickness alone. In 1828 the Russians passed the frontier to the number of 163,000. For several weeks all their efforts failed before the small fortress of Brailow. The Emperor Nicolas scarcely succeeded in defeating the enemy at Bonlanlouch. The siege of Varna lasted nine weeks, and at last it was bought of Joussouf, its commandant, with gold. Joussouf retired to Russia, and there lives on a pension. It is true that the Russians repulsed the Turks at Tchorlaa and Shumla, but without defeating them, notwithstanding the enormous sacrifices which they made there. The ' succeeding campaign was commenced under Diebitch; Rechid Pacha only had 30,000 irregular troops, and 6,000 vagabonds. At Bazar-Yeni, the demoralised Ottoman army gave way almost without combat, but at Koutcfcka made a vigorous resistance, and little was wanting to tarn the balance of fortune in their favour. It was then that Diebitch advanced on and occupied Adrianople. Yielding to the influence of England, the Divan asked for peace. Would Turkey follow the same course in 1833, having the support of France and England? But it is already too late to undertake a war, for at the end of May forage fails completely in the principalities, and on the banks of the Pruth. FRANCE. PARIS, WEDNESDAY. To-day a private telegraphic despatch was shown, dated Trieste, the 31st May, announcing the arrival at Constantinople of Count Nesselrode from Russia. This was regarded as a concession on the part of the Emperor of Russia. Business at the Bourse to-day underwent a fa vourable change, all descriptions of government securities having recovered from the panic caused by the unfavourable position of affairs in the East, with a tendency towards still further improvement. At the termination of business the Three per Cents. for the account rose If. 60c., and for cash, SOc., whilst the Four-and-a-Half per Cents. improved 50e. in the quotation for money, and 23e. in that for the end of the month. Beni of France shares declined 17f. Closing prices.—For cash: Three per Cents., 179 f. 10c. ; Four-and-a-lialf per Cents., 1021. For the account: Three per Cents., 79f. 50c. ; Four and-a-Half per Cents., 101 f. 73c. Bank Stock, 2,683 f. 30e. In the railway share market, also, a favourable change took place, prices generally being well sup ported. In Paris and Orleans shares there was an advance of 40f. ; in Paris and Strasbourgs of 30'4 and in Northerns of 201. The final quotations were :—Northerns, 900 f.; Paris and Orleans, 1,083 E; 1 Paris and Strasbourga, 013 f. PARIS, TUESDAY EYESINO. The official journal thus notices the progress ma.le in preparing for the Paris Universal Exhibition is 1[833: As soon as the decree of March S appeared, by whi:h the Emperor ordered that a Universal Industrial Exhihinon should take place in Paris in 1855, the department of the Interior hastened to come to an undentanding with the Minister of Foreign Affairs, that he should notify to the diplomatic bony at Paris and to ranous foreign gcvernments, by means of the diplomatic and consular agents of his Imperial Majesty, the gr• peal made by France to the industry of all nations. Thefts notifications have been received, as was to be expected, is the most satisfaetori manner, and already several states have responded to it. The governments of England, Bel gium, Sweden, Bavaria, Saxony, Baden, Hanover, :sale. I Frankfort, and Berne have intimated that, associating wi th I to pleasuro in the views of his Mejesty, they are ready sec ond detire euranc. their c, trop 0 rxioveui foreign lathe they at Last of the kere, peace manic he adc Art( with I body Astor is said Augul Dip twc en elates off; bu ment Ace allege tate t howeN canto; push YeE corvel Felice A] Mere Court pend( Guer to ac this grant ever, is get N. the ROrt fade • pe pros RUE