The Express. — London, England, 1852-04-03 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS.—FRIDAY, APRIL 2. na LORD CIIMICILLOW took 113 Mt at 6 u'Lloek. PETITION PRESENTED. - - COUNTY Cogan.—By tbe LORD CHANCELLOR, from a place in Northumberland, praying that articled clerks might be allowed to prattle* m advocates is County Cowie. MUTINY BILL. On tho motion of tho this bill was mid • first time. PAPERS PRESENTED. Tho Kari of as iehieCOptes of the Irish census returns. RENEWAL OF THE EAST INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER. The P.arl of DERBY.—IIIy lords ' —I rise, pursuant to the notice which I laid on your lordships' table, for the purpose of muving " for the appointment of a select coin. neittee to inq tire into the operation of the act of toe Jrd and 4th William IV., cap. fts, for the better government of her Majesty's Indian territories, and to report their obser vations thereon." My lords, the motion which lam about to submit to your lordships is for a committee to inquire, in common parlauce, iuto the renewal of the East betel Coat. pony • charter. I say in common parlance, McMinn net sly doe. that phrase not correctly express the real facts of the case, but iu peiut of fact it expresses almost the reverse of the facts of the case ; for, in the find instance, and up to a comparatively re-cent period, the East India Company has been a commercial body. Their charter was a commercial charter, gieiug certain privilege.. si.t rights. Ihe act of 1813 materially diminished the.: privileges, and gave them the privileges which they now possess. Ihe act of 18.13 went further, tied did not only diminish, but altogether took sway the powers they had of tritaiug, not only as an exclusive company, but of trading at all. When I say took away thine powers, I mean so long as they were entrusted with the political posers with which they were not in vested LI the act of IG't. So long a* they were invested with pohtiesl powers, so long the trailing powers of their mimes. tat charter were put in ItheTaneit. If your lord ships sheuld now think tit to withdrew the political power vested in them, the commercial charter is revived. If you continue the political power the company now eujeys, so far from that being a renewal of the barter, it will be a renewal of the midi:ions tinder which that charter remains in abeyance. It is not my iutention to take up the time of the house ley tracing the rim: and progress of this great com pany which has no parallel in history. This company has at led obtained dominion absolute &mouton, whether by the direct excrete. of authority, or by ni.-sns not lees Lian authority itself—over a country extend ing from twenty eight degrees of latitude from Cape et'eaturin on the south, to the borders el Chasmere, Cahul and Aterhaniecen on the north, and 'wilding in the bruedeot parts of that empire hardly less than 20 degrees of losiettude. a east district inhabited by a population which I believe lam within the sit irk when I estimate at one hundred suet fifty raillious. And it is not the least extraordinary course of the gigantic progress effected by this company, that although, for the maintenauce of Wan vast desuisditis, tucy maintain an army of 211.5,000 men, yet tit that void t.nny five-nxths are CronipoSed of the natives of Chem territories they have conquered. Idaho metes. and UM luCiii—every eanety of religious Meta and denomination, alike exhibiting as much loyalty and attach ment to their conquerors, exhibiting as much of interest and valour, as that small and noble army drawn from the mother country, with which it is their pride to be asoo rioted. You leave, then, when you look to the vast extent, to the great reecurcce of this empire, no light and unite. portent task before you; and I am commending to your consideration calmly and deliberately to investigate the machinery by winch the affairs of this great empire are ten. shoo tl—a machinery framed fur other purposes, gradually converted from its original intentine, applied and adapod to the chance of circumstances in which it was placed, cud institutions which seemed at the outset to be anomalous &Mort to the extent of absurdity, but which practically re - crated most beneficially to the interest of humanity and the advancement and progress of that mighty empire which they superiutended. I stated that sea., 1533 the East India Company had altogether ceased to be a commercial body. 11'1813 and op to that time they possessed not only the right of tradiag with India, but ex clusively the right of trading vireth India and with China. By the act of 1813, for the lint time, an invasion of that eoramercial monopoly was eff. teed. Coder certain limits- Lour, British subjects were allowed to settle in India, and the India trade was thrown opeu to other than the servants of the Company ; at the same time not depriving the coma piny from participating in that trade. In 1833 we went a step further, and we cut only did away with the exclusive I privilege* of the company with regard to India, but also took from them altogether the right of trading Ia the !Wan trade, and threw open to the public in patrol the trade to India, which up to that period had bees enjoyed by the elow• monopoly of the company. There were also other Changes mails as to the settlement of Earopven 'objects in India, and as to the acquisition of load. With regard to commercial affairs, this material al teration woo made after the law of 1833. The court of pro prietors—the foundation of the machinery—ceased is fact to base any interest whatever, or any control over the manage meta of the affairs of India ; because the went reedy 1&33 deprived the East India Compa a Z a 2al 1 their commercial property; not only of their right of trod- I ing, hut tit all Aar eautossrsial property, which , was mods I over to the crown_ _thom ler, at too same time, • pm- Vision made by widdi the elect of the company, to the I amount of six millions—ohoslividond sa the stook amisont hag to six millions—was made a grimily anew as at or venue of India ; and two MEM' IMO set aside der the purpose of accumulatiag wader certain conditions, to buy up, if seessamy, that amount of Moab. I might here mention that up an 1833 the act was Wood to the coltrol of parliament. At the NA Of twenty pamk s ems to have contemplated this anatinaaatis of this padded power of the company fur act only twenty, hat forty yea, I inasmuch so it gays to the 411111Speay the right—if the poll- 1 Beal powers which were ainersissi to than were taken away at the end of twenty pans—at dinlandlnft from the government the repayment a the mama of stock at the rate of MOP. sterling kr sveey 1001. stock. And they have the right to rognire tress the govern ment, on their political powers being taken hem them, that the government should boy up their Mask at that amount within a penod of throe ran. 1 most ray, is passing, that it is nut very probable, ems if the political pow, re were taken away item the _ they woad I make such a demand, became, although the alognay, applicatiaa would be to take the stock, yet as it is now worth 260 L, it I Is not very probable that they would insist on its bang I purchased at 2001. By the act of 1833 you lam no power j to pay off that dock natil 1874. You have %opener am- I pulwrily to call on the company to accept that bargain sad pay I of the rock. But if the company's powers are continuator : 1874—that is, for another period of twenty years—dio mown will then have the power of bidding as : payl i that terra stock on the I have mss pm toe year's notice. And for the purpose oaf legate OM sleek 20)0,0001. were at first set wide out et Or ememandsi assets of the company, which have sew eimmulated to 3,87u,000i. That SIM we to p ea esseemelattai at eme pound haunt to bay me the semis I aid at the expiration of forty years the ram* Mewed Webg trim that Mask would hare to be carded to the revenue of lads. Stich was the arrangement a which evidently imm templates! a eommelnain la the and principle et sr nilpotent between the Crews aril the sett India Com pany. Fist if, melee to memo mesemees deities of pare. meat, it should le thought inexpedient le eimilisas these powers in forty yonnss mail the expiration 01 that peeled the `ovummat 11111111 lave no poser of extinguisid the stock by miss the petaelpal. With the art of 1 883 the _ Court of oloes somad to have any metrol or inlaid in limas : the whir bushes et the Court of at this memeat emakite in rowdebig the dividends ea thole stock, new paying it'. per seat pee maem, nedi electing the umbersof the Court od Dinsfain—lhirear the^ that the Court of Propriatom lam as haelisos to perform It is tree hey most sal Ahem bet, mith to the legislation et lags, he ray shale tirleietfri t r =ilivea, any order to be ism* orimalea to he t the unanimous vote of the whale Covet of Proprieton i Z exercise not the slighted control or lallinswee over the as.. duct of the 'Moir+ of India. And undenhtedly when yea look to the present composition of the Court of Proyristom, there is some reason why they should not exercise any powers over the affairs of India: they have no interest In the affairs of India except .uch as they derive from the pay ment of their dividends. The number of proprietors a about 1,800, and I think the total number of votes is 2,500. The qoalifieation for a seat in the Court of Proprietors is I,ooof. stock; a larger amount gives two votes, and a still further amount a greater assinitior of votes, about one-fifth of which are held in India. The nowise which dovnly. tie ISMoroo•oes •roloooto o , as. l• a material ele ment is the maelinery by which Indian affairs are eon. ducted; but that is the sole power they can exercise, ex cept the very insigninoust power they have of putting a check on some gratuities, amounting to five or six hundred pounds. Now, my lords, I have b ees speaking of the Court of Proprietors; I now came to the Court of Biretta?* elected by those pro prietors. That comet consists of 24 members, and the only qualification, I believe, fir being an East India direc tor is the possession of a certain amount of stock, I forget what, but I thitik 1,000 i., the same qualification as that of a director of the Bank of Etioland or the South Sea Com pany. But practically speaking the directors of the Batt I India Company are now and have at all times been, a great majority of them, men a great portion of whose lives ha. been spent in India; who know the country, Its lawn, and the habits of its inhabitant., snit perfectly stile to direct the revetment of India. Of the Court of Directors, consisting of 21 members, one quarter part go out each year, but gem— i rally they are re-elected at the expiration of the year ; and the whole body of directors may be considered to consist of tho s•me members. The director, for convenienee sake, divide the/m.lTc. into throe committee*: one Is the fi- ranee committee, another is the political and legislative committee, and the third is the helm and iodide! commit tee --one insisting of eight, the other of seven, and the third of six, which, with the chairman and deputy chair. • man, form the great governing body. Now, in them in verters has been vested, in the first timer. all the nominal, and wide regard to most offices, all the substantial power of maleino every appointment in the civil service of India fmsa the earliesikt the latest period ; the nominal and real creep. lioo are the governor•steneral, the judges, the bishop., and a small nouthre of suhonlinnte appointments, which by courtesy or custom, 1 don't know wliethyr fey law or not, are mist ..d its the President of the IYe trot of Contrd. M anpolatments from the Com i —end this tr- wfil lon M.._ and sobiewial Om a/ :milk:. pany, from the governor seams' down to the low est clerk, without any communication or concert with the government. For every appointment they mast have the concurrence of the crown; bit the power of *calling every servant Is vested in the . There may bas been Meallestie on which that ea y say ham led mote inconvenience, but when we tome to the power of the Court of Directora t errea* es It and great as their influence is, their legislat dwindles down to nothing, Op nod eel) lase the Court of Proprietors no power by their enanlmous vote to issue • single order, but the Court of Directors themselves can ie.,* no order with regard to the legislation or government of India without the consent of the crown signified through the President of the Board of Control. They have not the power of Issuing a single despatch ; and more than that, they have no power for refusing to issue a single dispatch which the Presideut of the Board of Control may think it his duty to issue. If the Praident of the Board of Control sends the Court of Directors a despatch on a particular sub ject, and they refuse to deal with the question, ho may then, within one fortnight, compel the ' transmission of that dcootch, with the single exception, which is a very improbable one, of the orders of the Presi , dent of the Board of Contrail being contrary to law, in which case the Court of Directors have the power of appeal ing to the Court of Queen's Bench. But if the Court of Directors think proper to send out particular orders, and ' the despatch containing them is submitted to the President of the Ward of Control, they may by him be disapproved of; and then not only are they compelled not to scud out the despatch they intended to send, but the Board of Con trol may exercise the power of altogether modifying and altering that despatch so as if it thinks tit to reverse the whole arose and meaning of the instructions, and give in structions at variance with those which the Court of Directors desire to go out. The Board of Control has uudergone various alterations since it was instituted; the last alteration made was in 1833, when the last act of par liament was parsed, and by which, instead of three paid commissioners and a chief secretary, the consti tution of the board was altered to what it now is—namely, the President of the Board of Con trol and two secretaries, and in that board, practically speaking, the whole administration of the affairs of India vests. When we are looking to the working of this anomalous machine ry, conducted, in the first place, apparently by directors elected by the body of proprietors who have no interest in the affairs of the country—con ducted again by those directors under the control of the President of the Board of Control, and thereby reduced to be, in point of fact, a subordinate government hoard—the question naturally suggests itself, of what purpose is it to continuo this complicated and anomalous system? Why not invest the nominal authority in the same hands that have now the real authority, and why not dispense alto gether with the unnecessary intervention of the Board of Directors ? That is a question which the government will have to deal with. I think there are valid and strong rea sons for not departing from the practical working of that which we find in existence ; but it is open to the considera tion of the committee. Aud if they continue this system, they ought to bseaatisfied that it works well, or at all events that it is better than any modification or alteration of the system which could be proposed. (Bear, hear.) I ought to mention that independently of the courts of proprietors and directors, there is also the secret committee, which is charged with all negotiations in affairs welch have to be transacted between the Company and the native princes, as well as other b usine s s which it is thought expe dient to preserve secret. That secret committee consists of the chairman, deputy-chairman, end senior member of the Court of Directors ; and, in conjunction with the President of the Board of Control, that secret committee administers all those affairs which COMO under the head of negotiations or dealings with foreign princes. I think it may not be a waste of your lordships' time if we see how practically this system has operated in India, and what has been the prayer made since 1834. Proceeding at some length into the inquiry he had proposed to himself, the noble lord observed that hitherto the system had been un doubtedly what a noble friend of his called a mild despo tism. Since the charter was last granted there had been added to the British territory an area of 165,000 square mile., with a population of 8,380,000 souls, while the re venue had increased full as much as the charge bad done, baveug risen from 18.0001. in 1834 to 23,000,0001. in 1849. The commerce of the country had in the same time made rapid strides. The imports had risen from 6,000,000/. in IS3I to 12,000,000 in 1918; while the exports bail risen in the same period from 8,000,000/. to 18,000,0001. In the arts of peace there had been the same progress. It was also satisfactory to show that, while in 1512 there were only 3 chaplains in India, in 1832 there were 1 bishop and 75 chap lains ; while there were at present 3 bishops and 105 chap lains, independent of the ministers of the Sco ch church. Slavery had been completely abolished is 1843. In the administration of justice also great reforms had been effected, and in the minor courts there had been a great increase in the employment of natives. He was far from thinking that the time had come for conceding to India popular institu tions, bed he thought the natives should be trained to take a larger part in the administratiou of their internal affairs; and eves if this should load the natives to desire political in addition to judicial power, ad se la the coarse of years the east power of the British Empire le India should tell by its own hands, in the power it entosted Sr the natives, still it would be au expenueent worthy of • nodes like the; to have rescued the population ben the belusemosest sad ignorance in which we found them, sod saga them capable of governing themselves. Alt the isermades es this and on other ways* would be WI beaus the semnsittee, and it would tbes be fir that 11111Mdtbs• to molder whe ther the susemement of that reentry had been Niels* or net. It would he Ihr the., however, to con sider whether the intermediate solhedglietwecn the crown and India—the Court of Direseue—seseid be continued or not. As he had already casheinsi , Neagh they possessed no substantial power, they bad selsentre patronage : sad the mewl* weft ought it OS be emelesed with them, or amid It be wassikeeed te the sown. For his part, he believed thet arch • tusehrosee would be to pia* die vast pewee'p in the herds of a prac tically ineepseellsk, minister, aid use who could not know the selsonies of the essedee es the directors did. Of the thirty dtreetees new 'Alm so Inver than twenty ems at *am hal served with dlitleselos Is India, and wore, therefore, quadded Is sho Need sad voluble advice upon the goverummt at lie ailakf alinides this, it was, he thee" et the Musa leassMoses that the pa- Um.* of Isila shod& net be *bled ap with the pol itiod dllbeniNee of this country. Dockhos, be thought it was wag K osogratulation rather then meet that when • man who linispant the beet a hi Sip Is Wile returned to this issumbi, _ _whisk be sever oseeed soesider as his home, there Mould be mean for at Isiatiotr him still to inksige be ladies reeolleellwe Waft out to him the hope ef mot is the Coen of and nf allowing his, la the mucks et his to h ter* • me, a nephew, or a peals* Ile IMO honourable gamer which he himself had ostseal ems Ia early bk. The. IMO all qmotiese, lasemeen As Os Nelniase to decide on; aid *oust he kg hharlf s etrees *Moe se the sub, yet her sou eery serreaseeme won ready to be gui by dem eopel. mode Spy the sommitters la this sad the saw Moo at sullement. The sale bud thee eon. eluded by aselm_twempaistesset of the committee. nulled of NI,LERIOII,OI7OI sold the male lord hai stated with mometable seem, the useless es whisk the govonsocese at India was modessel. He had eserestal the osmium laser, that this yes • semdea ahem the lemma 11111 Oil= shorter; sod it woe emprishm that he W set ewes/ wee le sersoe s psi by whisk do MIS hesselhed m gowssoks bed* by oesspery ausiseily wan, bet the company did mg goers '• Hem, bear," hem Laid Derby.) Ter almost 7iyers die CosesetDbeetsm bad in point of fact boos so mom this • ism* et the Dosed et Control : and pediment had sew Is oseekim wieder It was expe dient still to sestinas that a groweseseLtra, er whe it would net be better to a mem same Ass the goverment of that . The noble bed bad set ed. ve real as Ids sposok hews taken into eis sideratise4the Tors Is which India naw Med. The of the Sea power had al Assisi our position Is India. Doetut that, Z i t s' s greet rival, and bad miry nt es distant period, to expect a most swim mead Napremacy in India. That rival was sow destroyed; as we MOM in the position in which Itome had steed efts the distensties K Carthage, when all fear of rivalry in the field *sobs hoes easseel, all those evils began to sperm" whisk lei is the destruction of abbe liberty, the ruin of the cesumeswealth, end the destruction of the empire. We had arrived at a petrels is whisk we maid est with eallst ib ic ie b s eyend our tinis rue* soloi he I *64 is W w e h ad shady is sons eletetoes__ Mud lbw It was with much regret that he caw at tie putendea of any country es the right hank of the bides above Cendshar, where the oavigation of the Indire ewe& Me lashed with regret opow ores ea she slimming:me slat lel los node in the last ten or twenty years from Am, with the anosption of Araean. But beyond oar present territorial lin* it would be the Met proof of political imanity le pre. The danger to • military empire —as ears in India was and must ever main—wal far greater in the stationary condition than in the progressive. That which he looked upon with apprehension now was the insolence of office, which, ems Is his time, had led to one insurrection, and the dire pal et atUitary duties by those called upon to perform ism, swing to the want of consideration for the native keeps; above all, forgetfulness of that great principle by which ear empire had been acquired, respect for the reli "gime' prejudices and the social habits of the people. These were the dangers of • stationary *spire ; and they were for greater than any we had encountered in our progressive advancement to the dominion we now possessed. In eon aliering what could be done under the pre sent circus seenese, end what alteration, if any, could bo made, he nonmedthat one point had been fettled 70 years ago—that the poteesam of India was to be severed for ever from the erews—thee was, the patronage of original appointment. He farther theseht that the crown should have the unroll trolled right of the commander of the forces, and that officer shoe* he es Oki, a member of council; and, further, that I the 1110110 shoel.l have the right to send as many imperial temp dem as the crown might think fit. At present no lima 20,000 troops could be sent without the consent of As oempeay. Ile further thought that the crown should appoint the members of council, not that he thought the bad hitherto abused its tower, but in the new ci he thought it would be Metter that those gostisine Amid look entirely to the crown as the source of meberity. He did not propose to change. the present arms of appointing the governor-general, but he did boil that the right of recalling not only the governor but the governors of the provinces, should be from the direetore. It would greatly condom, to the MMthilmam of tho governor-g.-nerd if ho had in his Citified tatim of each of tho different proud. nein. In. Kes~ab from the tra e l e rsro tnioae7:er legislative memberwo -'awa advantage to Oa governor-general if tbut WWI her were token from palled society—fraw that geode ben Thigh Ifewileseft lone Wee iftwally token for the Aloe d ftwist-ftmeolitep of eloOft Oftek • man would be of the Niue ftfte he the as one with whom he eemmunieati at all time. There fte ty In the power of the giewnor opinieft pit his council, ea Well as a t to leant his minion sad go into lb. pee viseeft at the time oft his won responsibility. With_ftend to the Internal government of the Ceenpan i L be Wilda state tilifit not more them one-sixth ef holds% of Indian Stock were conmetted with India, and it bad hems candidly avowed to himself, by a candidate for the direction who had been often defeated, that be stM persevered in his canvass in order that when he obtained a seat at the board he might do something for those who had supported him. What was the result? In plies of 21 members of the direction who had been distinguished in the Indian service, as his noble friend had said, he averred that there were not more then four of the present members who had an Indian reputation. Ile would propose that, in addition to the existing proprie tors of India stock, all officers who had served ten years is India, whether in the military or the civil service, should have votes in the body that he proposed to sebetitute for the Court of Directors. This new body he proposed should be reduced to twelve members, with a view to expedite business, and concentrate responsibility, particularly in the exercise of patronage, which cat present w a s confined in • great measure to the families and friends of the directors. On looking over the list of Indian cadets the other day he saw fourteen gentlemen all I of the same name, and that name so peculiar that he could hardly doubt they belonged to the lame family; while, on the other hand, ono of the most distinguished officers in Sir George Pollock's army, after applying to every director in succession, could not obtain a cadetship for his only son. Ile would further suggest that a portion both of the cadetships and writerships should be exposed for sale like commissions in her Majesty's army, for a fixed sum, and that the governor-general should have the power of removing an officer frln the military to the civil service. Ile objected to giving cadetships as • reward for scholarships in colleges and schools. What was wanted in India was knowledge, not of books, but of men, probity, energy, decision of character, and, above all, mo ra l courage sail fearlessness in the face of the public—qualities which mut certainly were not to be learued from books, except, per haps, from " Plutarch's Lives." He concluded by entreat ing their lordships to remember that the Indian empire was in a perilous condition, at it had no roots in the affec tions of the people, though he was satisfied it would from England if the same ability was shown in preserving that had been shown in extending it; and he trusted, there ' fore, they would allow no considerations of mere conveni ence to prevent them from doing that which was just to the people of India, and just to the people of England, and which would tend to found for England an eternal empire in lodic. (Cheers.) The motion was then agreed to. The Earl of DERBY nominated the committee, which was also agreed to. THE INDEMNITY BILL. On the motion of the Earl of LON*DALI this bill was read a second time. MAYNOOTII. The Earl of DERBY intimated, in reply to the Earl of ALUEMAII.LE, that government had no present intention of proposing any interterence with the Maynooth Endowment Act; but the aggressive attitude which the newish church and many of the Irish people had lately taken had added materially to the difficulty of defending an endowment in tended for the purpose of maintaining peace and good will, and of binding the Roman catholic clergy to the state by the ties of gratitude and loyalty. Their lordships then adjourned at half-past 7 o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—FRIDAT, Arm. 2. The Smack's took the chair shortly before 4 o'clock. PEI V ATE BUSINESS. —.— The Barnsley Gee Bill andthe Bristol and Exeter Rail way (Yeovil Branch) Bill were read a third time and passed. BILL/ CONSIDIRED AND AORIND TO.—British Empire Mutual Life ASattranCe Company, Derby Ow, Lancaster Waterworks Cemetery and Gas, and Medina River Navi gation Bills. PUBLIC BUSINESS. PETITIONS PRESENTED. UNITIRSITT TEATS (SCOTLAND).—By Mr. JOHN STONE, from Clackmannan, for abolition of. MALT TA: —By Lord J. RUSSELL, from places in Sussex, for the repeal of. TAxan on Knowutoon.—By Lord D. STUART, from Maryleboue, for the repeal of. INDTATIDAL COTANTNINAIIIPA.—By Mr. SLINF.Y, numerous petitions; Mr. A. lIASTIE, from the workmen in the employ of Maws. Allan and Ferguson, Glasgow, in favour of. ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES ACT.—By Mr. KEOGH, from Bnagh and another place in Clam; Mr. DEVE RECK, from Gorey, Wexford, for repeal of. NATSOOTII ACT.-By Mr.IMILES, from Somerset; Mr. NEWDEGATE, from places in Warwickshire; Mr. HEALD, from inhabitants of Heaton Nor ri s, Lancashire, for repeal of. CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL.—By Sir A. INGLIS, from Lincoln College; Mr. CLAY, from Hall, for exemption from the operation ; Mr. MASTERMAN, from the Cooks' Company, against. SECULAR EDUCATION.—By Lord MELOUND, from Glasgow, in favour of. AGRICULTURAL BURDENIL—By Mr. STAFFORD, from Northampton, praying for relief from taxation. GREAT EAKIBITION BUILDINO.—By Mr. COCKS, from Reigate, ;praing for the preservation of. METROPOLITAN WATER SUPPLY. Lord EIIIiINOTON pored that the gtitiaa of membcn et the Metrepelibut Sanitary Asembition. Wag water esesomese imeleyers withia Ae imellMebsi be te- Meal le the committee on the Mersey* Water Supply Bill ; and that it be an iamiselha •Me sell committee to hear the parties who r have ftiml the oil petition, in pmesemee the praye themet; sai OM the add peti dame he templed Men She morieent et M s s. Thai the hllewiss iamb= be ladled hie as dline ea the mid bill :—Lord Jelea ]Fusers, Sir Jeha Jehoshav, Sir Wil liam Clay, Mr. Mrmatt, Mr. Lesithestes, Me. Cochrane, and Viscount Ebel...ten. After • brief 011111100sfios, he motion was rid NA mis fired. KENNINGTON COMMON. I Lord J. MANNERS brought up • bit he the imaketwe I sad improvement of Kenninitoa-commem, whisk wee read a arse time. nit• nominally. anti 'many of them m•lir, oree:; . l 7.ous t of Directors: hut the only pnvri.r I may had to considerable dill moire an in ion, u.,1 to be anaidend a 7 cou .•, • ly n.al annul wow whi ch *ale i• Seeellins MIL g/r/4 WI • • f , cow V ' t rt t j 0 . 1 ll ' • • • • • • 1 •1 Ist • Is 4 THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY ETENING, APRIL 3, 1852. RIVER PLATE. Mr. M. OlllSONitiiWnotics -- iiarea Tasesiey nest he would put • question to the Charlie of the Rzehequer, in reference to oar relation with Dresa, ri tke tree nevi ption of the river Plate. RELIGIOUS ENDOWMENTS.-211TABLISILED CHURCH IN =LAND. _ _ Mr. HUME gave aslies that la tbs meat of the 'Notion of the hon. member he WirWhilliket wee Teelbe 811 quip , into Maynooth, seeded, bs Was ram for an inquiry into the epsh sa aMslt bap sans sew were Tell trees the Isaatisa suastry he the sup port si Mbar *Wm ii* tad *a Issertahaiag time mem ber of plasm babssidas Is sasb mut supertively ; the for ma local loM tbs smeassis smiled sloes 18M, for the =the salabliebsd Asia fa halved, the way in bey have Ms sapsseled, sad to UM taal the num bs/ it possosalosista that chards. (Hear, hear.) CHARITIJILE TRUSTS BILL. _ _ ATIGRNEY-GENERAL said, that though he woe iblieso of pressellog with this hid with ea little delay Y pia% lot es Is yids' to hiss It fully dimmed, and `fitmisol mak to ware preparing Kona mS be abseil ems* to papaw the hill till after AZ PISMO he Soold AZ it hi So Sat day after the of the Moe. _ THE BUDGET. _ In reply to Mr. RITMOLD., The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that it was his Intention as soon as possible to make tho financial statement. and when the house met again, after the recess, he would fix the day. He would give fair notice of the day, so that the members from Ireland would have time to be present. (Laughter.) MILITIA BILL. Lord J. RUSSELL wished to know what was the busi ness fixed for Monday, and whether it was proposed to read the Militia Bill a second time on Monday. Mr. WALPOLE 'mid he had just laid the bill on the table ; and it would be read a first time that night, and he move the second reading on the first day the rooirvemnl to et, naming the 19th (the 23rd was subsequently flied for the second reeding). The CHANCELLOR of the EXCEZQUER said he proposed to go into committee of siwly Monday, and to take the vote on account alike Kaft we,. THREATENING NOTICES. IRELAND. Mr. NAI'IER, in reply to a question from Sir J. Young (who read a "Molly Maguire" notice received by a gentle man a day or two ago), admitted that the system of threat- suing notices was spreading in Ireland, and that there was • determination to create a complete r4n of terror, and to interfere with the rights of property. The attention of the government had been directed to the subject, and the powen at its disposal would be nut in force. OFFICIAL SALARIES. 7 THA CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND. Mr. BRIGHT ga;eSWiticeth7a7 he would, on Monday, ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the recom mendation of the committee on official salaries had been envied out in respect to the salary of the Chief Secretary foArlrelsnd, in which t►ey recommended that a large re duction should be made on the next vacancy. or in cue of a dissolution of parliament. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said ho could answer the question now. All the representations of the committee on official salaries would be well consi dered, and in this instance their general tenor had been fol lowed. (Hear, hear.) DECIMAL (20INAGE.—THE FLORIN. Mr. EWART wished to inquire of the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether there was a prospect of the new coin called the florin (of Is. value) being re-issued, especially as approximating toll decimal system of coinage ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that her Majesty had approved of the new coin called the florin, end an order in council for its coinage was lamed on the 4th ult. There was about 20,0001. in bars of silver pre pared for the coinage, but the pressure on the Mint for gold rendered it impossible to concentrate their efforts for the purpose of making the silver coin. In about two months 200,000 picers of the new coin would be issued. With regard to the seamed part of the qui %thin—namely, the ilecinudiaation of the pound, that was now complete by the issue of the florin. What further steps might be taken for the development of the decimal principle must be matter for ulterior and mature deliberation. CROWN ESTATE IN ORKNEY. In reply to • question by Mr. Annxissux, Mr. G. A. HAMILTON explained why the return re lating to the crown estate in Orkney, whisk had been ordered as the 3101 of July last, was not mewed, and said that it would be furnished as soon as possible. RAMBOATE HARBOUR TOLLS. Sir Cl. PECIIELL wished to ask the hon. member for the City of London, who had charge of the Ramp= hour Bill, whether it was intended to retain the cla posing a toil on wend. passing the harbour. Mr. MAI:MERMAN said it was the intention to Main those clauses because there was no other means of keeping the harbour in an eiliticat state. Tha trustees, however, were ready to maks • reduction of 24 per oe u t., an d th e y on l y awaited the passing of the bill before the house to tarry the reduction into 'fleet. MR. COBDEN AND THE EARL OF DERRY. On the motion tnat the house at its rising do adjourn till Monday, Mr. COBDEN availed himself of the opportunity to read a correspondence which bad taken place between the Earl of Derby and himself in consequence of his having quoted from " Hansard " on Tuesday, a declaration there reported to have been made by the noble earl in 183-5, that if the ballot were adopted he would, as an English landlord, not only ascertain for whom the tenant voted, but assure him self by seeing him put the ticket into the ballot-box. Earl Derby in his lett( r referred Mr. Cobden to the " Mirror of Parliament," as containing a correct version of what he mid, via., that if the ballot were established, any English landlord, if determined to exercise his power over the te nant, might do so in the way stated. Mr. Cobden, amidst much cheering, admitted that there wu all the difference in the world between the two reports, end, accepting as perfectly satisfactory the noble lord's denial of the opinions attributed to him, withdrew the comments ho had made, transferring them to those imaginary landlords of whom Lord Derby spoke. Mr. WALPOLE—Perhaps I may take the liberty of saying that the very frank and handsome explanation which has been made by the lion. gentleman opposite, is as satis factory to the government as I em sure it will be to the house and to the country (hear, hear.) I will merely add that the imputation which may have rested upon the noble lord for a few days, is as inconsistent with the real facts of the ease, so it is with his untarnished integrity and his unblemished honour. (Cheer') TILE MILITIA BILL Mr. M. GlBStoll;;islTedtosppe;liCiThe government as to whether they had not better postpone the second reading of the Militia Bill to a later day than the 19th. The bill might not be in the hands of some members for several days, and he thought the house should not proceed with the second reading of so important a measure on the very tint day alter the hone° re-assembled. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said when he moved the adjournment for the holidays, he would state what arrangements the government proposed to make for carrying on the public business, and of course he should endeavour to c..nsult the convenience of the house in every way. At the same time he must remark that the holidays would not be very , short, that there was en anxious desir, on both sides of the house to expedite the progress of 'mines:, and that they would probably gain something like a week by proceeding with the bill at once. Its should, however, consult the feeling of the house, and on Tuesday, when moving the adjournment of the house, he would be prepared to adopt wha•ever course appeared best. Mr. BRIGHT said that many members would be leav ing town on Tuesday, and he hoped that under all the cir cumstances the right lion. gentleman would feel it to be consistent with his duty to the house and the country to fix the second reading two or three dsys later than the period stated. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, though the bill was la.d on the table that night, he had no objection to fix the second reading for Friday, the 23rD. Mr. WYLD wished to ask the hon. baronet the member for the University of Oxford whether the report of Mr. Gurney upon the ventilation of the house would be laid on the table before the vacation. Sir R. INGLIS said, not only wu he not the chairman of the committee, hut he was not even a member. Lord PALMERSTON sail he was a member of the com mittee; and, though he was not the chairman, he would not fail to communicate the hon. member's wish to the chair man. Lord J. RUSSELL said be should not object to the post ponement of the Militia Bill to the 23rd inst., supposing that, if the second reading were agreed to by the house, the government would then proceed with that bill without delay. While upon this subject (continued the noble lord) I wish to say, in very few words, that much apprehension appears to have been excited in the public mind by a belief that the government have altered what were under,tood to be their intentions with respect to the advising of a dissolution. I will not now advert to the circum stances from which that apprehension has arisen. I feel the inconvenience of adverting to words which are surmised to have passed in conversation else where, during which none of the members of this house may have been present, and which I certainly did not hear. At the same time, I do think it is desirable that before we enter into committee of supply on Monday we should have some explanations, or some statements, in this house on that subject. I feel myself that lam the more bound to take a course of this kind, bees Ise, relying on the accuracy of the reports w►ich I have read—(cheers from the opposition)— mid being assured by many noble friends of mine that what they heard was perfectly satisfactory to them, I did advise those who act with me on this side of the house not to delay public business or to throw any difficulty in the way of supply but to proceed at once to vote the estimates. They certainly complied with that request, and I believe no less than 14,000,0001. was voted with a rapidity almost unexampled. (Hear, hear.) I was induced to give that advice by assurances, which I thought satisfactory, that the immediate measures before parliament would be expedited, and that no unnecessary measures I would be introduced. I feel responsible to many members for having advised that course ; and I do trust, without ad• eating more particularly to the conversation upon which the misunderstanding arose, that on Monday, before going into committee of supply, we shall have such a discussion as will set this matter at rest. (Hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said—l have no wish to interfere with any discussion which the boom* may think proper legitimately to have on the order for going into committee of supply on Mon day next with regard to the conduct of the go vernment; but, as I do not wish any misconception on such an important subject as that of a dissolution to remain until Monday, perhaps the house will allow me to say a few words now. I entirely agree with the noble lord that it is most inconvenient to have discussions in this house upon conversations reported to have occurred in another place; but I have inch an intimate acquaintance with the feelings and views of the first minister on the sub ject to which the noble lord has referred, that I have no hesitation in saying, without waiting till Monday, that a very great misconception has existed within the last two Or three days as to the intentions of the first minister, and that he certainly never did mean to convey either to the house or to the country, that his opinions on the subject of adissolution of parliament had in the least degree changed (Hear.) They are not in the slightest degree changed. It is the intention of her Majesty's government, as it was their intention, so soon as those measures are passed which are necessary for the service of her Majesty, and for what we consider the good government of her realm, humbly to counsel her Majesty to dissolve the existing parliament; and we shall do so with the full intention of recommending her Majesty to summon the new parliament in the course of the present year, under circumstances which will afford ample and complete opportunity for that parliament to de cide on the policy of the existing government. Sir, I think that is all that wocen say. (Ministerial cheers.) We base never for a moment hesitated in that. (Hear, hear.) efts for any government pledging themselves to recommend a dissolution of parliament at a particular and specific period, I think, sir, no person in this house, I ant sure no person who has been a servant of her Majesty, could for a moment appro've of such a course. (Hear, hear.) It is impossible for us to say that at a particular hour, or on a particular day, or week, or even month, we will pledge ourselves that a dissolution of parliament shall take place. (Hear, hear.) Circumstances might occur which might render it net only inconvenient but most impolitic to have given such a pledge. All we eon say is that at a period when such business as we deem indispensable shall have been transacted, we shall hum • bly recommend her Majesty to dissolve this parliament, with the full intention also of recommending her Majesty to summon the new parliament in the course of the present year—l mean for the purpose of sitting--so that the policy of the government may be decided upon. I only repeat now what it was intended before to convey to this house, and what lam sure it was the intention of the First Minis ter to communicate in another place. These are the inteu tions which we have always had; and I assure the house, though I should certainly have thought it unnecessary to do so, that there was an intention on our part to act loyally on the subject. (Cheers.) Mr. HUME said the explanation which had been given must be satisfactory to all partite. The right hon. gentle man had repeated his former declaration that all the go verument wonted was to have those measure.; passed which they thought necessary. Tho house wished to know what those measures were, and that was n point on which the government could have little difficulty in making up their minds. (Hear, hear.) The motion was then agreed to. HARWICH WRIT. Mr. T. DUNCOMItE moved that Mr. Speaker do issue his warrant to the clerk of the crown to make out a writ Gs the electing of a burgess to serve in this pro vent parliament for the borough of Harwich, in the room of Robert Wigrans Crawford, Esq., who.. eli Minn ter. been deb rminoil to b.. void. 'lire Imo. men.t. r said that when ho mole this !no tion on the previous evening, it was under the impression that it was acceptab , e to that (the opposition) side of the house, but ho now found that ..he cue was otherwise. Me mints/ awl died dry were bound either to insist on in quiry or le eerier& to the issuing of the writ. The gaieties baring been pat, Kr. BOOVERIB moved ea an amendment that no warrant should issue during the present session. He dissented from the hen member's statement that the house had bat two courses to pursue—either to inquire or to Wee the writ; they might upon their owe knowledge suspend the issuing et the writ. (Hear, hear.) They all knew the facts of the case with regard to this borough without any more inquiry. Suspension under such circum stances was quite •eonstitutional practice. Mr. NEWDEOATE thought it very unjust that small boroughs should be sacrificed on the shrine of u morbid sensibility about corruption. Sir DEL. EVANS did not think that the character of the tenant farmers was concerned in the question before the house. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Newdegate) complained of the morbid sensibility of gentlemen on that (the opposition) side of the house with regard to corruption, but the government supported by the hon. gentleman and his friends had also introduced a bill for tho purpose of putting down corrupt practices at eke tions. The case of Harwich was a very peculiar one ; in no other borough had curb malpractices been committed. The right hon.'gentleman (Mr. Walpole) was unable on the previous evening to point out a single case of a similar gross character ; but as the house hail thought fit to refuse its assent to the motion for inquiry, lie did not think there was a fair ground for suspending the writ. (Hi ar.) Mr. K. SEYMMIt said that there was no proof of cor ruption at the recent elections for the borough. Mr. ROEBUCK raid the suspension of the writ was most improper proceeding, and the sooner it was stopped the better. (Hear, hear.) After a few words from Mr. Bright, Sir R. 11. Inglis, and Mr. Cobbc Id, Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that from 1594 down to the present time writs had been continually suspended, and the issue of writs directed not to be made, except in a full house. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the particular instance of corruption before the house he owned there ' was some doubt, but as the writ had been so long suspended he did not see that any practical reasons had been urged for discontinuing the suspension. When in office he had, in concert with his right hon. friend (Sir G. Urey), agreed to oppose the motion for the issuing of the writ. Though he had seen no reason to change his opinion, as it was the opinion of the house that the writ should bo issued, he would suggest to his hon. friend the member for Kilmer. nock to withdraw his amendment to the motion before the house. (hear, hear.) Mr. HUME was surprised at the course taken by the house, though he certainly ought not to be surprised at anything which occurred there. (A laugh.) It was note- rious that the last elections were attended b as great an ' amount of bribery as the former. (No. no. It was true that the last election was not set aside on t e ground of bribery—(divide, divide)—but there was no doubt that bribery had prevailed, and he thought, therefore, that the suspension of the writ should he continued. (Divide.) The ATTOItNEY-GEN ERAL consideml the noble lord a high parliamentary authority, but the precedents which he (Lord John Russell) had mentioned were all prior to the passing of the Grenville Act. Was the noble lord prepared to favour the house with any precedent applicable to the peculiar circumstances ? It was rirfeetly true that in DM there was a strong representation submitted to the house no the subject of bribery is Harwich, but the house refused to make any inquiry Into the circumstances, declaring that they were not sufficient to justify disfranchisement. (Hear, hear.) If ever there was a condonation of an offence, it was the conduct of parliament towards Harwich. (Hear, hear.) Since 1847 no acts of bribery had taken place, tho house had refused to issue a commission of inquiry, and he thought it was tho duty of the house to allow the borough its representative. (Hear, hese.) If they did not, they would commit an set of gyms injustice. The noble lord said he had seen no reason to change his opinion, and yet be suggested to the hon. member fur Kilmarnock to withdraw the amendment, and allow the writ to be hissed. He (the Attorney-General) did not think such a course con sistent. The government would support the issuing of the writ. (Hear, hear.) Mr. ANSTEY mid a few word., which, from the general cries of " Divide," and " Oh, oh!" were quite inaudible. After a few words from Mr. DEEDES and Mr. Mowarr, Mr. BOUVEHIE said that in compliance with the sug gestion of the noble lord he would withdraw his amend ment. Amendment withdrawn. The original motion for the issuing of the writ was then agreed to. REPAYMENT OF ADVANCES (IRELAND). On the order of the day for the second reading of the above bill, Mr. F. FRENCH complained of the manner in which Ireland had been treated with regard to these advances, as calculated to destroy her industry and depopulate her shores. lie begged to recal their attention to the mode in which the Irish poor law had been established. The repea t of the original committee was disregarded, and Mr. Nic hols was sent over and in six weeks settled the question. Mr. Nichols stated that under no circumstances would more than 100 workhouses be necessary, whereas at this moment there were 163. lie stated that 312,0001. would be the greatest annual expense, but that in ordi nary years 208,0001. would be sufficient. It was unneces sorry to say how far this estimate had been exceeded. With respect to the items for which the bill legislated, he ob hcted to the first of 1,200,0001., but the second he believed ad been useful and fairly appropriated. Neither did he think them was any objection to the third, but he thought it should not be culled up until the works were completed. lie should move that the bill bo read a second time that day six months. Alter a few words from Mr. O'Ftalisavv, ' Mr. GRATTAN said, that Ireland had been wronged and plundered there could be no doubt. The right hon. gen tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer smiled, but he (Mr. Grattan) did nut complain of him as he was no party to it. What he wanted to know was where the money had gone to ? He was sorry that the bon. members for Mont rose and Manchester, besides all those members who op hposed th e Irish members on this subject, bad all le ft the ouse. Ireland had been charged with a sum of four ; but what had she got by it ? Had the poor been fed, or the people kept at home, or their moral condition im jectsproved ? Certainly not. The poor-law had failed in its ob , besides which in 1849, the expense eattendant on it had been four times as great as it was in the year it was passed, the year of the failure of the potato crop, which was the alleged cause of its necessity. Look at the sum charged for workhouses. Were the (sets not enough to exdte the indignatian of so irascible a gentleman las the honourable and learned member for Tunghai, and, if he had nut been ab sent, no doubt they would have had a suitable speech from him, accompanied by those remarkable gesticulations with which he was accustomed to " Adonise " himself. (Laughter.) In the workhouses in Ireland the people died at the rate of 1,000 a week. He hoped the govern ment would adopt a plan he would recommend, which was, to direct the hon. and learned member for Portarlington, who held an office in the Ordnance, to order out a park of artillery, and blow every workhouse in Ireland down. (Laughter.) That was the only way to keep the people alive—(laughter)—and to have peace ; but, as it was, they were killing the people at the rate of 1,000 a week under the special care of Mr. Nichols. The hon. gentleman then went through parts of the bill, which he declared no one could understand, and inquired whether any part of the four millions was to be remitted, or if it was all to be paid back by annuities ? If so, he did not know how it was to he done. Mr. CLEMENTS was not anions to get rid of the work houses or the poor-law, but to see them work out the ob jects intended by them, and therefore ho wished to exa mine this bill. its purpose was to legalise a treasury minute of last year, which proposed that in every case in which the expense of any union reached is. is the pound, the repayment of the advances should bo so adjusted as not to cause this sum of 41. rn the pound to be exceeded. Even if this were so, when the county cess of 2s. in the pound was added to it, it raised the local taxation to Gs. in the pound, while in England the average woe not quite 2s. Gd. in the pound. lie wu not ono who would repudiate the payment of advances, if it were practicable, but he com plained that the treasury had kept the house and the people of England in the dark uto the real state of things. (The hon. gentleman was proceeding to comment on the report of Sir Charles Trevelyan, when he was interrupted 14) 1 ..... . - . Mr. TRELAWNY, who said—l rise to order. I have overheard words pass between two hon. members which are calculated to lead to a breach of the peace. [lt will be necessary to explain that while Mr. Clements was speaking Mr. Ansley, entered the house, and after ad dressing several members, evidently inquiring what had been toil with respect to him by Mr. Grattan during his at.ence, took his seat on the hint opposition bench by the table. Mr. Grattan crossed the house and sat down next Mr. Anstey. Some animated conversation paned between them, after which Mr. Grattan rose and left the house. Mr. Trelawnythen rose to order.] Sir A. COCKBURN said ho had been an unwilling hearer of words passing between the hon. members for Toughs! and Meath, which he thought required that they should be called on to state that wha' had passed be tween them should go no further. (Hear, hear.) The SPEAKER said that the proper course was to order the hon. member for Meath to appear in his place. [Cries of "Oo on."] The attention of the house hail been called to the likelihood of a breach of the peace being intended between two hon. members, and the proper course wee that a motion should be made, calling on the hon. mem ber for Meath to attend in his place. Sir A. COCK SUltN—I beg to move that— The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was about to rise to make that motion, and he begged to second it. Mr. O'FLAIIEI(TY could see no reason for ordering the hon. member fir Meath to appear in his place. An hon. gentleman had drawn the attention of the house to circum stances of which at present they knew nothing, and they had been called to decide upon the elf et of certain words when they had not heard what they were. (Ileum., hear.) He would not on such grounds veto for any gentleman's being called to the bar. (lieu, heir.) Mr. LABOUCHERE could conceive no other course for tho house to pursue than to assent to the motion of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Disraeli). An hon. memb er lvid risen, and had informed the house that he had heard the holt. members in his neighbourhood make use of language which was calculated to lead to a breach of the peace. Mr. O'FLA HERTY—Aye, aye; but what language? The O'GORMAN MAIION—Who knows anything about it? Mr lABOUCIIERE continued—And, under these cir cumstance., the house would do right in insisting upon the pre s ume of one of the hon. Gentlemen implicated. At this point in the "scene," Mr. (i RATTAN reentered the house, and took his seat. Sir A. COCKIII'UN begged that the hon. gentlemen oppositc. Mr. O'Flahcity and the Oliorman Mahon) would not hold him responsible for having first drawn th e attention of the house to this matter. It was the bon. gen. tleman behind him (Mr. Trelawny) who bad first asked the interference of the Speaker; and on the circumstance being mentioned, he (Sir A. Cockburn) had thought him. self called upon to state what he had heard. Sir I'. NUOENT begged that the house would under stand that he had followed his hon. friend the member for Meath out of the house with the intention of potting mat. ten right. Ills argument with his hon. filen:: was that anything that had been said in the house might to be answered in the house ; and he had asked his hon. friend to return to his place and await the answer which the hop, member for Youghul might think fit to make. His hon. friend had returned to his place, and so far matters hod been settled, and the house would know what answer the hon. member for Youghal would make. Mr. TItELA WNY accepted all the responsibility of in terfering in this most unpleasant matter. He hoped he had ; not done wrong. [Several Irish members—" V. ry w rong, I very wrong ." wng.") Ile had acted with the h o p e o f preventing further eousequenews. [Several Irish member, -" Pooh, pooh' . The SPEAKER—The lion. member for Waif, listing returned to his place, it is necessary to withdraw motion made in reference to hint. At the same time the house will minim to hear something from the lion. memoirs, that neither honourable member will proceed further in regard to this matter. Mr. 0 RATTAN—I am very cony, for the sake of oho house, that anything I am connected with should take op its time. I addressed the house in refereo.o to the huts, member for Youghal, without intending to give any offence, geeing the hon. member afterwards inakirg inquiries in this house, as to what I had said, I crossed over to him end offered hint the document respecting the Youghel U n i on, from which I had quoted. Thereupon, the hon. member used to me thew words: "It is on your pelt neither courteous nor courageous." • that I mallet . "Coura geous is not a word to be used in that way in this Loom." Anil then, air, I left the house. (Loud cheers.) Mr. A NSTEY.—The hots. member is perfectly corral is the repot he has made of my words. But he has omitted the circumstance which pines those words a meaning. Ile crossed over to this hide of the house when I was woke. vowing to ascertain the na.ure of the attack 11l ule upon me during my absence; and, in an excited m .iiner, the hon. member said to me, " You hate come back, end you should ban been here to defend y' ur borough." I Said, " That is no business of yours." lie said, "It is." And then I said, " To make an attack on me in my absence fur o neglect of duty was neither courteous nor courageous," These were the words I used and those were tier reasons for using them. An llos. Mumnta.—But withdraw them,—withdraw them. Mr. ANSTEY—I do everything, of course, due from me to the house. Mr. MAHER—Oh, but that won't do at all. (Roars of laughter.) Mr. ANSTEY—If any exolanation is necessary I am perfectly willing to give it. But Ido not understand that the offensive language, or the offensive manner of the hots. member has been explained, or even alluded to; ..rod um:et those circumstances the house will really see that it is not for me to speak first. (Cries bf " Oh, ob.") The SPEAKER—Is the 11021ta to undortand from the hon. member for Youghal that the hon. member dots not mean onything personally offensive to the hon. lUvlllbet for Meath ? (Cries of " Hear, hear.") Mr. ANSTEY—(Atter some hesitation and a very solemn voice)—l mean, Sir, nothing perso.olly a H naive to an man. (Roars of laughter.) The SPEAKER—Is the hon. member for Month satis fied with that explanation? Mr. GRA fTAN—The hon. member says lie does not mean anything persoraily olliinsive to any man. Now, j am a man; mid I ani therefore quite satisfi..l. (Great laughter and tremendous cheers from Mr. WI - lotion, and the O'Gorman Mahon.) Tho O'GORMAN MAHON (who rose amid cries of " No, uo," " Sit down")—Sir, I wish ouiy to make Otte observation that may he of some use. I have to express a hope that nay lion. Bitola opposite (Mr. J. Clement.) will at once proceed with his address, and this chlitioual hope that the house will never again degrade itself by entering into such personal matters as loin occupied us Miring the last floe minutes. (Cheers, and laughter,) The " scene" then closed; but it eras some lime before the indications of excitement and amazement sole ided. Mr. CLEMENTS renewed his neldress to the home; but, in the prevalent " burs " we die not catch his few roe maining remarks, Mr. U. mooltr: would not support the met:on of the hon. metntier for Roscommon (Mr. F. French': anti he believed that the hon. member had only propos. the mo tion for the purpose of obtaining the opportunity i.f making a speech. lie would not either find any fault with the I Present government. The conduct of the government had been eiceeinigtry frank and straightforward. They had done all that could have been expected from them, and much more than was to have been expected from the late government. (Hear, heat.) But he should like to know how far the financial arrangements of the late government s and on which this bill was founded, had met with the ap. probation of the present gove rn ment / (Hear, he a r.) The whole country party of I relaud—all the supporter+ of the present government—were unanimous in complaining that they were wronged in this matter. (Hear, hear.) They demanded investigation into the circumstances, which investigation, they thought, would bear out their ease; and they appealed with all the more confidence to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, knowing that his opinions, as her. to fore expressed, as regarded the burdens on land, soentiiely accorded with their own. (Hear, hear.) It was ash many years ago since the right hon. gentleman, supported on the occasion by the whole of his party, had propow.d that a very considerable portion of the relief of thé pauper ism of Ireland should be paid nut of the consolidated fund. The argument urged at the time in opposition to the right hon. gentleman, was, that local supervision was necessary to economy, and that local supervision would be superseded by a centralised system of relief. But such au argument had no application whatever to a case in which the relief had been governed and administered by • centralised authority alone, and in which local supervision and local authority were entirely excluded from control of the funds, or from interference with the expenditure. (Hear, hear.) Ho did hope that the present government would act, in regard to this subject s in conformity with their recorded votes and opinion. (Hoar, hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER -I wish to mind the house of the real question before us. The bill before us is really • bill of indemnity, and the facts are the-e. The late government, with, under the circumstance., a wise dis cretion, performed certain acts which the law did um justify. They embodied in a treasury minute measures which they deemed necessary in a period of exigency ; and it should bo recollected that all the propositions on th.it minute, though they may not have been so comprehensive as may have been desired, or so extensive as sonic persons may have hoped, were all propositions of arrangements of a remedial and mitigatory nature. (Ilear, hear.) What ever may he the differences of opinion on the great ques tion which has been touched upon in the course in this de bate—namely, the relations that should exist between Eng land and Ireland with reference to claims made under re workable. and I may tiny unprecedented, Circumstances. which will be fresh in the recollection of all present, there can be but one sentiment as to the character of the measures with which the bill under discussion is con nected. They were remedial measures—they w.-re mea sures devised to soften, to aimlierate, and to relieve ; and therefore I could not have imagined that a bill like this would have met with any opposition in this house, and least of all could I hose conceived that an amendment, to read that bill a second time this day six months, would have come from Ireland, and from the member Ibr an Irish county. (Cheers.) We can lay no claim to any credit in connexion with this bill lave the humble credit of not shrinking from doing justice to those who have preceded us. The bill was prepared by the late government; it was submitted to my consideration when I first entered °thee by my predecessor; and it appeared to me that it was more than a just, that it was an equitable and a kind bill. It did not appear to me that in winctionino. it I gave any general opinion uteri the large question of the state of Ireland. It simply appeared to me notwithstanding the peculiar circumstances of the session, anal notwithstand ing the anxiety which we felt not to crowd the paper with numerous bills, but merely to carry out the measures which were absolute'y necessary, that this was an absolutely ne cessary measure, and that it was what might be passed without opposition, and even with warm feelin4o en the part of Irish members. (Cheers.) It is unnecessary for ma to vindicate this measure. I have not heard so yet a mur mur 'gaunt it. It is not pretended that this is a hill to add to the taxation of Ireland. The relief which it se cures may be less extensive than is desired. hat it Is a measure of relief, and it stand* on its own merits. Those who support it are in n• way pledged not to consider the larger question, and it is therefore quite needless for me to vindicate • low not a portion of which has been challenged, questioned, or criti cised. Some hon. gentlemen have intimated that they would have preferred that the whole question should have been considered through the medium of some larger propo sition. All I can answer is that this is a proposition founded upon an examination of the facts, east as A direct remedy to a certain extent for a peculiar and overpowering grievance. Those who support it are not eteepp' from bringing forward their general views on the subject ; hat I cannot understand that any ono could desire that the pas-ing of this bill should be postponed, as suggested by the hon. member for Roscommon. The hon. member for Mayo (Mr. Moore) has made an appeal to me, couched in very ornate and courteous language, which I cannot comply with, because I cannot see that it hears any ster e= to the question befere us. (Hear, hear.) It is enough for me to may that I shall always be ready to uphold vile rally those opinions with re +poet to taxation to which the hon. gentleman has referred. But I must say, not by particular acts. (Hear.) Such principles as I have Lid doses 1 trust I shall always assert, being convinced of their justice, and feeling convinced that if applied in a spirit of justior they would conduce to the advantage of the cemmunity. (Cheers.) Undoubtoilly, in the consideration of a question of that kind Ireland Is not to be mnitted. (Loud cheers) I have never considered the question of local taxation and omitted the question of Ireland. (Loud cheers.) On the contrary, I have always kept the question of Ire land before the house, and I have 'hewn how Ireland has suffered from an inequitable system of local taxation. (Loud cheers.) With regard to the milers' rendition of Ireland—as to tho cleitres, under which she labour,; as to those burdensome en g a g ements i omen it in consequence of an unprecedented combination of eirrora static, s, from which she ho. not vet succoaseoqy , roc•I I have no he- itatinn in raying that their is, on the p•rt of her Maksty's government, a sincere desire to review the state of Ireland in a comprehensive manner, w , tli the Mr of supplying some effective remedies t" thoe tow-4210e.