The Express. — London, England, 1848-03-14 00:00:00

I' - due properties. (Hear , heat.) The government had shows th e meless es ignorant of legulation as of the temper of the people with respect to the income tae ; bet the question now was, what were they to do in order to intbatala th credit ot the Ceantry ? He believed they would be obliged to have recourse to the dangerous expedient of deficiency bills. They said 'they were willing to try the in come tax for these years. Under the circumstances of the country and of Europe he did not feel himself at liberty to refuse them the tax for that time. With regard to the prin ciple of the income tart iteelf, he agreed with the hon. um ber for Newcastle, who in his able end lucid speech saM that it would be more honest to state how the inequalities° , the tax could be remedied, than to abuse it for its inequality and injustice. He did not support the measures of the go umlaut as approving of the measures of the late govern ment, but he did not feel himself at liberty under the cir cumstances of the country to vote against it. And if ever it happened that a whig Chancellor of the Exchequer .should find himself with a surplus, he would be as ready as any man to vote for reducing the ezpenditure of the government. Mr. MOWATT said he considered the question one of with vital impetuses to the well-being of the country, to its onward progress, peace and tranquillity, as to justify any member in e xpressing his opinions by voice as well as by vote, lie was anxious to explain why, being an advocste of direct taxation, and a aupyotter of the present government, he was prepared that night to give his vote in favour of the amendment. First, as to the government. He had entered the house anxious, as a liberal, to give her Majesty's advisers his support ; but so had had been their financial policy that he was almost ashamed to be numbered one of their adhe rents. They were not merely standing still, they were showing a disposition to retrograde. What was the budget they had before them ? The government scarcely appeared to know whether to levy a direct tax or to revert to the old system of the country. They had failed in making out any case for imposing the tax in its present unequal form. They had failed in makiog any bold proposal of their own. Like the preceding government, this administration appeared too aria-ocratic and exclusive in its character—it drew its opi nions from a clique—it had no share in the sympathies, as it did not meet the wants, the wishes. and the desires of the people. Why did they shrink from proposing an extension of the probate and legacy duty ? They imposed thousands of pounds of taxation on moveable property, whilst on landed property they did not impose a farthing. (Oh, oh.) Who denied it? (Cheers.) They had brought the country to a financial cries, and why not come down, a liberal and middle-class government as they professed themselves, and propose some such measure as that ho re faced to ? There were, moreover, thousands of the public necesey locked up is the shape of crown lands and forest lands. Why did they not raise funds to meet the exigency of the time from that source? These different measures would have supplied every defleiency, and would have shown the people that the government were desirous to take into consideration the requirements of the country. The trade and commerce of the nation were in a state of paralyses— there was no doubt about it. (Ironical cheers and a laueh.) ! he laughed at the idea of members opposite , that thes e eircutcuitences were attributable to free trade. If they had had an earthquake last year, members opposite would probably have attributed it to free trade. (Cheers.) But he returned to the government. Ile owned that he felt himself so sere at their financial policy that he was en tirely ashamed of them. They did not attempt—they were perfectly unable—to justify the expenditure of the country. They did not even promise to retrench for the future. They held out o hope that at any time they wouldOn the conteary, n they Absolutely asked for an augmentetion. If they had merely asked for the same expenditure as before he should not have complained. They had, no doubt, been greatly pressed out of doors ; they had probabl) been devery riven to do many things which were unnecessary. Ile made allowance for them on that account. But was not a great part of the present excessive expenditure owing to their negligence and supineness ? Let them look at the expenditure of the Kaffir war. What other ministers would have come down to that house with such an item charged in the budget, like an item for whitewashing the Treasury ? (A laugh.) So greatly was he disgusted with their want of boldness that he cared little what became of them. Having no invention of their own why diet they not go to the mem ber for Tamworth for a plan ; or follow t he example of the Dutch in 1624, and send oat an advertisement offering a reward for a new tax which should not peers upon the country ? (Cheers.) But now to the querion inimediately before them. It was because he was an advocate for direct taxation that he should vote to night in favour of the amend ment. If they wished to cerry out direct taxation they must render that system as just and as equal as possible. It was not from any hostility to the tax itself that the people at the present time poured in their complaints to that house ; it was because they felt the tax to be unequally and unjus ly assessed. lithe people saw any desire on the part of the government to assets it equally, they would assent to it with perfect readiness. (Hear, bear.) But if they re-im posed this tax for three years, what hope was there that the government would remodel it? None whatever. (Cheers.) But apart from that consideration hear( Mowatt)thi should certainly he inclined on another grond to oppose s tax tonight. He thought that for several yearn to come the pre sent system of direct taxation would require alterations before it was made a perfect system, and he thought they ought not to give the government for three years s tax which might require an annual revision. The President of the Board of Trade had appealed to them already ad miser i eordians Inc their votes. But ho (Mr Mowatt) be Bevel those were the beet friends of the govern mutt who did not invest them with a power which could not fail to render them unpopular. It had bean also argued that an adverse decision tonight would injure the credit of the country. He thought, on the other hand, that wise financiers would see an increased security in the annual revision for which it would be his pleasure to vote. (Cheering.) Mr. 0 HUDSON said the hon. member who had just sat down had failed to point out where the inequalities of the tax existed. (Mr. Mowatt :No one denies them.] It was very easy to make bold asse rtions, but facts were infi nitely referable if they could be had. The hon. member though p t an extension of the legacy and probate duty desi rable, bat he omitted to mention that the landowners could neither sell nor lease their property w ithout paying taxes which did not fall upon the fundholder or the merchant. But, for different reasons from those of the hon. member, he should vote with him in the division. lie shuld do so on the round that he did not think the mea sureso of the governme g nt equal to the exigency of the occa sion. Their measures were imperfect; the income and the ways and moans were not equal; and in such a state of things no financial proposition ought to receive the sanction of that house. In the course of the debate it had been ob served tkat the duties on corn had, during the last few days, been re-imposed. He wished to remark upon that fact that they had row for a fortnight had a duty of 7s. upon corn, and yet that they had had no increase in its price. (Loud protectionist cheers.) That circumstance ought to convince them that there were taxes whichmight be taken off without affording ono farthing of benefit to the consumer. (Renewed cheering.) The same rule applied to the timber duties. Never was there a tax the repeal of which did so little good to ourown people. whilst it so greatly diminished the revenue of the nation. With respect to direct taxation he must own that he was in favour of it as a principle, but he very much doubted if the country was prepared for it. They talked of " lightening the springs of industry." It was his belief that nothing would "lighten the springs of industry " so much Cle the repeal of the window tax and the assessed taxes. The member for the University of Oxford had adder-awed them as a party anxious to support the credit of the country. It was that anxiety that induced him on this occasion to vote for the amendment. Several members rose togethei, but there wet e cries for Mr. COBDEN, who spoke as follows: If, air, I can pro mise you nothing else, I will at least promise you one novelty in the course of this debate —namely, that I will stick to the question. (Hear.) If any one can have a motive for enter ing into that wide field of discussion on which hon. members seem so fond of dilating it is the bumble initividuat who is now addressing you, for certainly the question of free trade is the ono on which I feel myself by far the most at home. But I wish to say, once for all, that whatever repetition there may be in this house of these purposeless railings about free trade—(protectionist murmurs)-1 promise never to enter into the discussion of the question until such purposeless railings are put into some tatigikle form—into some shape in which we may ar rive at a definite division. (Cheers.) Sir, we have had co many molly s assigned for voting in layout of the amend ment, that I feel peculiarly anxious to state the grounds on which I shall give it me support. Certaicly I shall not do to tor the reasons given by the hon. gentleman who lest ad dressed you; for of all the views I ever heard taken by sale who , po•seeses sound and clear-headed ideas ef subjects fivace, his, perhaps, were the most extreordinary—(cheers) —for he wile the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he does not put the finances of the country upon a sound basis ; and that because be aloes not do so he (the member for Sun derland) will not let him. (Laughter.) Nor, sir, shall I support the amendment foe the rear*: s assigned by hon. members opposite, fur I e. rtoinly do tot intend to relinquish the income tax and revert to a system of indirect time ion. Neither shall I support it for the reasons which have been unjustly attributed to my hon. friend the member for Mon trose, of whom some have said that he only desires to limit the period of the operation of the tax in order that, Lasing cut down the exphses of government, he may next ytar abolish the tax altog. Oar. Now, I must admit that sometimes my hon. fri, nd is liable to some degree of mis appre,ensiou as to what he nays; but this I will vi suture to say for him, that if you get a surplus of five millions and a half next year and consent to put the income tax upon au equable and ju s t footing, that tax will be the last tax he will be anxious to dispense with. (Cheers.) Nay, Bother, I will venture to sac teat if you will give my hon. friend an income tax hosed upon a firm footing, he will con sent to give you that •ax, ever, at ten per cent, in order to dispense with other tars pressing with greater hard-hip on the people. (Ri nerd cheers.) I say still more—l say that if yr ,u and yourself in possesston of surplus fan is another year, you will find at necessary not to diminish %hist ix but to diminish the burden of the indirect taxes. You •ill find it necessary to do that in order to me et the wants ot your growing population, and in order to give employment to your people by of them opportunities for tucressed trade in exchange for the productioes cf fore go c iuntri. a. Yes, )0U will find it necessary, in order to *lie urage free trade, to make up your minds to a e oistant di minution of the burdens of the country, of which it is justly said that there is no other nation in which so much is paid is indiri et taxation upon artic:es of general and universal consumminu. Why, we are now talking of five millions and a half of income tax, whilst the cisterns duties amount to 110 less than twrnty millions and upwards annually. I have taken an opportunity of making an esti mate of what the w rking climes pay in indirect tax ition. We ere talking now of 7d in the pound incocie tax ; let as see what is ths amount of the poor man's income tax. (Meat, hear.) For eve:, 20s. which the working man pays for tea, lie pays 10s. duty. (Hear, bear .) For every 20s. utiat 11 sugar, he pays dat; . . Fur very 20s. spent in REALM OF TOWNS BILL. Lord MORPETH stated , in a nswer to a qu estion, Mutt he intended to move that this bill be committed profound, to enable hint to make such alterations in it as he could without impairing its efficacy • but that he would not be ab le to name an earlier day fur pr oceeding with it in carmine, than Friday se'nnight. It was not intended that the present bill should apply to the metropolis, on which a separate measure would be submitted. THE COAL-WHIPPERS OF LONDON.—RECENT DISTURBANCES. Hr. GLADSTONE wished to put a question respecting a body of labourer+, in whose welfare that house felt a strong interest—he alluded to the coal-whippers of the Thames. (Hear, hear.) Sic years ago an set was passed with the view of relieving them from a degrading state of thraldom, which had bad the effect of producing a material change in their soci a condition. He wished to know whether it was true that they had applied to the government to be enrolled Special eonatablee ? He introduced the subject with no invi thous f sling towards other bodies, but as an example of the beneficial result of treating those classes of the community with encouragement and protection. Mr. L ADDUCE' ERE bad great gratification in answering that it was quite true that the coal-whippers, being as mew as 2,600, had unanimously volunteered their services to pr• Lett the public peace. (Cheers.) About three hundred of them had been sworn in special constables, and there was • magistrate in attendance et the offices for swearing in ethers. Having apposed the emanate referred to by the right hon. gentleman, he felt himself bound to say that be believed it had fully realised the intention with which it was proposed, and greatly improved the moral habits of tie coal-whippers et London. Sir G. GREY begged to observe that the recent dis turbances, or rather Ater:nets at di s turbanoes, the only object of which was p l ea d er —( bear. bear)—had elicited on the the part of tho great body of inhabitants, bath in metropolis and the huge towns of England and Scotland, the most resolutedetereni na tioa to give their cor dial 00-operation and valuable aid for the suppression of all such attempts, and for the maintenance of that order on which was based the we.l-being, the comfort, and MS pro- T r e i a t , y , ll cla hear.) Manchester offered is,sr.s o fooo . the w eo c h in ot s. un b i l t e y ‘ .. blasgow 20,000, and Liver col was also prepared, if neces sary, with a similar force. Hear, hear.)_ WAYS AND MEAN .—THE INCOME-TAX— ADJOURNF.D DEBATE. On the question that the house resolve itself into a com mittee of Ways and Means Mr. HUME expressed 'his regret that the debate had turned from the income tax u free trade, and hoped the hon. member for Glasgow would not follow the example of the hon. gentleman the member for Buckinghamshire, but con fine himself to the real question of whether the income tax was to be continued for one or for three years. Mr. BANKES thought the hon. gentleman would have been more corect if he had cast the blame upon the right hon. baronet the member for Tamworth, who was the first to open the question of tree trade. Sr R. PEEL said he had only introduced that question so far as it was necessary to explain the grounds on which he supported the proposition of the government. The house then went into committee, and the debate was of the the couctry. (Hear, hear.) It had bun Mated that le millions of it quarters of grain had boon imported lest you, and that would have been impossible for this ins , Mutation to take plus under the late corn law. He . I`ed that no difficulty whatever would have arisen; the Izastght have been temporarily suspended, or the duty to one shilling, and this would have admitted all the supplies we required. (Cheers from the protectioniaU.) Muck of the importation dluded to bad douhtless been stimulated by the high prices prevailing here at the time, whereby freights were diverted from other European coati. tries. On the subject of our armaments, he thought it would be most unwise, with the present septet of Europe and the world, to reduce their efficiency. (Hear, hear ) Still, he thought the expenditure might be materially reduced with out at all affectine their strength. The increase since 183.5 had been complained of ; but this increase was not at all surprising, looking at the learly increasing extent rotect et our trade and manufactures , which it was necenecessaryto pin the most remote quarters. Many of our colonies had suffered severely from our adoption of free-trade measures. He bad recently received letters from Canada. expressing apprehen sions of another and more serious rebellion in that colony. The country was now committed to free trade measures; he had always opposed them ; but as they were now the law of the land, let them have • fair trial. (Hear, hear.) The free trade in corn—the most important of all the free trade measures—would not take full effect till February, 1849, and if prices continued to rule as now, from 40e. to 50.. a quarter, the worst effects might be feared ; and if, along with this, there 'lister' commercial and manufacturing. dm pression, the state of the country . would be most alarming. (Loud cheers from the protectionists.) But he was con vinced there was a spirit in the middle dames of this country which would soon compel a resort to a sounder system. Mr. E. R. RICE firmly believed that a heavier blow to the credit of the couutry could not be given then by refusiog to vote the income tax for three years. (Hear.) If a fun inquiry were to take place into our system of expenditu one re and taxation, it would be impossible to complete it in year; therefore, the only question was between an income tax for two or three years; and he shouldsupport the govern ment proposition. Much bad been said ss to the amount of the estimates, and he hoped for some benefit from the com mitees et inquiry. But he never would consent, and ke be lievted the country would not consent, to make any reduction in the navy, the &aura of our national strength. He thought honourable members had not sufficiently considered the increased expense which the ein ployment3f steiumvessele in the navy bad occasioned. He fully admitted the inequalities of the income tax; but the ' commercial Cillslß4 had by no means to suffer the whole of the injustice. The landed interest was also heavily bur dened; he keew one leasehold estate where the net re• ceipts were only SOOT. out of a rent of 1,600 L ; and many leaseholders would be glad to take two-thirds of the rent as their net receipts. Then the professional classes ware allowed to make their deductions ; and he knew one gentle man who had deducted his chambers and also his law books he did not know whether he had ale, deducted his brains. (Laughter.) He hoped an extensive inquiry into our system of taxation would be in ; in the meantime, he should support the goverament proposition. Lie thought it prebable that direct taxation would be corded further ; and, in that ease, it was most essential that it should be properly ad justed. He would prefer the removal of the window duty and some of the excise duties, to removing the income tax. the Mr. BUCK thought nothing was more injurious to ' country than the system of direct taxation ; and of all ot her the income tax wee most repugnant to himself and ether tectionists. (Hear. hear.) The right hon. member for Tamworth had erofessed to impale it only for three years, 1 to meet an emergency ; while it had been made the means lof forcing on the country fret-Vide measures, whose opera tion hod been so genteelly fatal. Though the serieulturiat I had not yt lee would inevitably do so after the next abundant e v e st. hary Delete the prediction of one so wise as the right hon. baronet (ear R. Peel), that we could never have so large ea importation of grain es four millions of quarters—in the very next year, with a scarcity all over the world, we had had introduced twelve millions of quarters. (Hear.) It was remarkable that when the free-trade mea sures were passed every branch of industry was progress ing; now there was a general depression. The right hoe. baronet's measures had benefited nobody but the large capiex - talists. lie wee nut prepared to support a three years' tension of the income um. (Hear.) As to its pressure on the landed interest, be was convinced there was not an I estate which did not pay five per cent. instead of three to that tax. What was paid by the manufacturing interest ? Whatever it was it surely could not be of much importance 1 to them, who had, over and over again, boasted their ability to buy up the lauded interest. (Hear, hear.) He ' should support the amendment, but for vee shry different rea- 1 eons to those assigned by the proposer • hould support it ' from a wish to return to the system of taxation which had , been removed by the right hon. member for Tamworth. Mr. LINN AHD denounced the income tax as oppressive i and inquisitorial. He thought it impossible to make it equal, 1 or acceptable to the country • but it was desirable to go into i an inquiry whether it could not be rendered less burden some. The inequalities had been aggravated by some of the I provisions that had been engrafted on it. It was most ob- 1 jectionable, while Ireland was exempted, to tax the absentee i proprietors, who expended at least as much on the improve- I went of their estates and the benefit of their tenantry as did I ' the resident landlords. The question was now between the 1 renewal of the tax for one or three years ; and much that had been said in the course o f the debate appeared to him i quite irrelevant to this point. To free trade the country was I irrevocably committed ; he for one was inclined to abide by I it, though he had opposed it, and try to make the best of it. , Looking at the actual deficiency which existed, and the little I probability of any consid table reduction being made in one I year, he was disposed to support the government pro- I position. He could not agree with those who thought it was I not desirable to place the defences of the country on a better . tooting. Ile trusted that commerce might supersede war, bat till that became the general feeling he thought it was well to be in a position to secure them from attack. He looked upon the question whether this tax should be granted for one year or for three as one of form and a n t of substance, and although he disliked an income tax upo principle, he felt that in the present state of the finances he was left no other choice than to support the proposition of her Majesty's government. (Hear. hear.) Lord DRUMLANRIO thought that the able speech of the hon. member for Newcastle (Mr. Ileadlam) must force a di• rut answer from the gentlemen of the Manchester school. He did not blame them for their opposition to the govern ment, but he could not conceive how they could agitate for the repeal of the corn lows, and refuse to support the govern mast on the present occasion. ear, hear.) He looked , upon the repeal of the corn laws ass great meaeure, a bold =atone, and a good measure, and one which he hoped would be successful. He would support the proposition of her Majesty's government. Mr. E. B. ROCHE said he was anxious that there should be no misconception es to the reasons whirl induced him to give his vote on the present occasion. It had been admitted that the ii.come tea was unfair and unjust both by the hon. member for Westbury and the hon. (but not very secure) member for Liverpool (Mr. Cardwell). The people of Lon don, of Manchester, and of Liverpool had declared against it. He, therefore, a representative of the people, had no alter native but to vote with the hon. member for Montroso. (Hear, hear.) He heal read with pain the speeches made by the hon. and gallant member for Westminster, and the hon. member for Marylebone, who held out threats against the Irish members in case they voted with the government on this occasion. lie was not influenced by those threats, but he could not bring himself to support that goverement, and he called on the Irish members nit to support it, at the head of which was a man who, when the constituencies of Ireland and their representatives declared that their country was wronged and treated with injustice, and that the injustice should be redeemed, said that he would risk a civil war rather than do so. Would they, the Irish liberal members, supeort and relieve that arm which had raised the sword over their heads because they sought to redress their injuries ? Would they support that government whose viceroy had earned for himself the title of the " Guixot of Ireland ?" While the Viceroy of Ireland was preparing his guns, re• viewing his dragoons and battalions, were they at the com mend of the hon. member for Louth (Mr. 13ellew)to file into the lobby as a sort of loyal Swim guard to the ministry ? (Hear, hear.) He trusted that the representatives of Ireland would vindicate the character and honour of the country on this occasion, and that they would, as their true interests pointed out, stand by the representatives of the popular feel ing in this country. (Hear.) They were weak at present, but he believed that the popular cause in both countries would eventually triumph. (Hear.) Mr. HENLEY said that if he felt any difficulty as to the course he should pursue on the present occasion, it would have been removed by the speech of the hon. member for Cork, who called on them not to strengthen the hands of the government, because they were averse to a dismember ment of the empire. (lieu, hear ) Judging from the speech of the hon. member for Westbury, one would he I led to suppose that the country was in a state of unrivalled prosperity, in consequence of the measures, of which the right hon. bait. was not (as it now appear. d) the fa-her, but the godfather. (Hear.) It was, he believed, pretty generally acknowledged, however, that they we re net in a s tate of prosperity, sad that the free-toad.: measures of the right hon. hart. had not secured them from adversity. Titers were alternating cycles of proved/ end distre 3 prosperity accompanying good harvests, and distress attend. ing bad ones; but those who maintained that the prom, city of some years was owing to the measures of the late govern ment, had not alleged a single circumstance to prove that the one was connected with the other except their co. exist ence. (Hear, hear.) It was remarkable that neither the right hon. baronet nor the right boa. gentlemen the mem b r for the Ueivereity of Oxford had made the slightest allusion to the great internal expereliture which was coose quent on good harvests, and which constituted in his opinion a vast element of wealth. (Hear, hear.) The predictions of the hon. member for Manchester had not ben veriti d ; the repeal of the corn laws had not secured to them cheap food, nor prevented a drain of gold. The delis hon. gentleman the member for the University, in epealiing of t .e silk trade, ' said, " See the bearing of . these measures on the revenue, on trade, and, above all, on the employment of the people." If the right hon. gentleman meant, by employment, work without reference to waers—he might be right. but the word bad a different meaning in his (Mr. Henley's) mind. It was upon the silk goods, and not upon the raw or thrown silk, that the people of this country could earn profitable wages, and whilst the imports of raw silk had editincreas nly 14 per cent., of thrown silk only 7 per cent., the impos of silk goods had increased be per cent. (Hear, hear.) He did not look upon any measures as benelicial which did not afford reasonable remuneration as well as employment. (Hear, bear.) He was afraid that legislation of late years had been directed solely to benefit the capital of the country without refertnce to the working man. (Hoar.) lie did not mean to key that they could stop the comas , rdal spirit which an necessa wwasaliened but !hey sh mid not aid it more thry ; beceuee , be believed it was a principle anta gonistic to the 1r...0p . . , 0 :moor.. The government should not t«,l all the w(i....; —.I, Otte scale—cash seeul 1 hate Its resumed Mr. MA by CGREGOR, who declared himself, in the fullest sense, the disciple of the right hon. baronet the member for Tee:worth, in whose policy, front the period of his assuming office until he left it, he most thoroughly agreed. But, in the measures of that right hon. gentleman, he disclaimed having had any share whatever, beyond the statements he had mule before the import duties committee. Regarding the present state of the revenue, he was of opinion that the income tax, even for three years,would not suffice to remedy it without some other measures, having for their object re duction. lie thought, for instance, that the Irish and colonial expenses, and the expenses of the dock yards, might reasonably he diminished. (Hear, hear.) This was the only couutry in the world in which an income tae was levied ; but other tuitions had taxes upon landed property, which he considered more objectionable than an income tax in consequence of the perplexities with which, after examination, he found it to be involved. The great evil in this and other countries arose from the absence of a meters' of financial legislation, in consequence of which the finance minister in each had recourse to expedients to maintain the revenue. History showed that such had been theme in France, Prussia, Austria and other countries, going beck even to the time of the Roman Empire. It however was the undou ted right of the House of Commune to examine all matters of expenditure and revenue, and that house the coustitutioa had entrusted. and properly entrusted, with the originating all sybouse stems of taxation ; and that toeing so he trustad the would not on this occasion adopt a mere expedient to maintain the revenue without f f oiug into the whole question of expenditure, with a view to ascertain whether it might not be so reduced as to render the expedient of an income tax, even of three per cent., unnecessary. If the house granted that expedient but for one year, he thought it ought to enter at once upon the whole question of taxation, with a due regard to al the requirements of the state. This was the undoubted right of the Commons, as established by Lord Chancellor Clarendon ; and hence it was that he raised his voice to appeal to the house against the present proposition of her Majesty's government, and he made that appeal in accordanc? with, end supported by the opinions of all the intelligent public—and the whole of the public press, with three solitary exceptions. His appeal was, therefore, that the house should grant this income tax for one year only, whether it might be demanded at the rate of 3or 5 per cent. (Herr, hoar.) Mr. Alderman SIDNEY complained that in the present debate, though conducted on both sides with consummate ability, the house had lost sight of the real question before it, namely—the continuation of the impost on the profits of Moles and professioes. Bef ,re the present proposition was conceded he thought, with .the hon. member fur Montrose, that it was the bounden duty of the house to inquire into the expenditure, and aaceruin whether that expenditure could not be brought within the natural income of the coun try. He was astoniihed, as a young member of the house, to have learned, that since the year 1835 the expenditure had been increased by no less a sum than 9,000,0001. Though he had listened with great pleasure to the statements which had been made on both sides of the home, yet he must take leave to say, that sufficient consideration had not been manifested towards the commercial interests of the country. The house had been called together earlier than usual, first to consider the state of Ireland, and se condly the distressed commercial condition of the coun tr y . On the latter subject a committee of inquiry had been nx.ved for by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but, instead of any redress being proposed or rebel afforded it was found on the re-assembhug of the house that the right hon. baronet proposed an increase of taxation to the amount of 3,&00.0001. steeling. Now he (Mr. Aid. Sidney) could, from his own knowledge, undertake to try that the middle class 4ef Vadeunan—the shopkeepers of this country—were never in so exhausted a condition u at the present moment, and I were wholly unable to bear the enormous amount of taxa tion by which they were already oppressed. In Norwich the tradesmen were paying far local taxation at the late of 50 per cent. upon their rental. In Leeds it was as high. Look at the extent of failures which had taken place since the month of August. 1817. In London they bad amounted to 10,000,0001., In Liverpool to 3,000,0001., in Manchester to 2,250,0001., in Glasgow they had been as great ; in fact the total amount of failures bad been for no lies a sum thou 23 ; 230,0901 . ( Hear, bear.) He (Mr. Alderman Sidney) therefore contended that this was not a period at which income detived from commercial specula tions should be further taxed ; and he was sure these were the best friends of her Majesty's government who asked them not to press their present proposition for a period of three years. Mr. HEADLAM said that on comparing the wounds upon whirls the income tax had been adopted in 1842, and again renewed in 1845, and throe now urged, he thought the circumstances of the present day were much worse than those of the year 1845, vrta.n the late House of Commons oonsented to • ntinuance of this tax. The demand* upon the reven u e of the country must be satis fied, and he (Mr. Headlsm) was net prepared to go with the noble lord opposite (Lord O. Ben tinck), and take a retrograde course. He, however, pro-' tested against the house prJecn.ding to impose this tax on the same terms • he thought it due to the country now, before it was renewed, to go fully•and fairly into the subject, in order that its inequalities and injustice might be removed. This ought to be done whatnor the renewal was for one year or more. He opposed a return to indirect taxatios, and he should go into committ'e prepared to any extent to assent to any scheme that could mako t he impost j ust, equirable, and j less inquisitorial. At present, however, he could not, censi daring the state of the country, relive the demand at present made by her Ma;'-sty's government. Mr. SANDARS said that though the conntry had been prepared for some increase of taxation, 'till it had not expected any increase to the income tax. lie for one objected to the unjust manner in which that t ax wa s placed upon the industry of the country. If one boot.'indvidual invested 20,0001. in land, and received from it per annum, while an Alter invested the like sum in trade, and by his skill and energy realised eight per cent., there was no justice whatever in taxing him twice as heavily as the former individual. (Hear, hear.) He should vote for the amaideuent, first, on the ground of the inequality of the tax; and eecondiy, because he thought the national burdens ought to be lightened. (Hear, hoar.) Much might be dune by altering the preesure of the burden. Ile objected to the taxes on light and air, on soap, and on tea. The latter tax ought to ba considerably reduced. The duty ma insurances should be rooealed, for its effect was to drive away much of the insuranos business from this country. la lieu of the window tax he would substitute a well adjusted hoe.: tax. lie would also lay a tax on the succession to real property. (Hear, hear.) The prnbato and legacy duties had been imposed by Mr. Pitt in I %G;i he also proposed a daty on the sues- ion to real property; but it woe rejected on, a division, in which the numbers were I equal, but the So , uker gave his casting vote against it. Afterwards Mr. Pitt had been induced to withdraw the measure. It was, therefore, fair that this tax should now he imposed. It the income tax was now re-imposed he saw no justeu in exempting Ireland. Why shoula a mer chant in Belfast, Dublin, or Limerick, be exempt from taxa non which was borne by English merchants ? He found that there were taxes to the extent of 20 millions in this ormetry from which Ireland wu entirely free. (Hear, pear.) There was a cry for eqoal laws for Ireland ; let 'ere be a lso equal taxation. (Hear.) He did not object income tax being rix..de permanent, if it were placed ,feti;.t;r end Kama basis and, as the Chancel) -r of the quer hod Helmeted that it would be permanent, it I se g ogewolde to make it a just one. (Hear.) Ile had heeitgeelelvi to hear hum the right hen. the Chincellor of ne W goer that the adoption of this amendment would 't lefobe g' towards repudiation. He denied ft ; nor del he * l 4 lieve that its Adoption would affect the unds in an, degroa • ' Let t - w tit ec-inspesed for one year ; and , in the means .2.te.:use me 'to I ha ittised f.r resole:s tat en';- try what might be coffee, fts. duty, For 20 .. woe* of itemp, tie. duty. For 20e. I confer, the meat opposite and the strangest reasons given doction which would enable us to dispense with the emus worth of beer , M. duty - For 2011 wor th of tobacco, 10e. by bon • gentlemen nod either side of the house for supporting tax 'for that period. We prepaid the estimates at a time doty. For 20s. worth of spirits, 14a. duty. (Hear, bear.) that proposition ; sad if I did not know that my honourable when everything appeared tranquil, but even then I said Now when it is borne in mad that the working Mama aka friend always brittle. forward any proposition he may that I little believed in the power of Polifial prophecy by far the larger proportion oldness articles u articles of Mae to submit with the fairest intentioas, both to the Looking to past times we shall had that neither tee muted; necessity and comfort, it will be apparent that these taxes home and to his opponents, I should say, that he underituding of Mr. l'itt, nor the accurate and ingentan upon them are enormous. We are talking of 7d. in the was on this °cession acting the part of a most able tacti- mind of Mr. Fox, nor the pkilosophical neservation of Mr. pound ; but they pay on some of' the articles they consume ciao to catch votes fro -u all aides. For if my that friend Burke, enabled any one of those gentlemen to loran whae 14e. or 16e. in the pound. Whea a man of thousands a had brought forward a proposition to the effect that it was would be the issue of the extraordinary events which year spends his income, a great pr .portion of it goes in fur- necessary to practice the mint rigid economy in the public before their eyes from 1790 to 1792. Such being the ore, I attune carriages, horses, picture', and other article., on depart:ileum, for the purpose of greatly reducing tho itti- would not at any time attempt to prophesy which little or no duties are payable, but when trade is bad mates, he knows very well he would be in • small minority the political events of any one year, and least of all at the in Lancashire and Yorkshire, then it is that the Chancellor (near, hear); and if my noble friend, the member for King's preeent moment. ( Lou d cries of " Hear.") Six weeks ago of the Etchequer comes down here with complaints that leis Lynn, were to make a proposition against the continuance there were persons who said that France was so constituted, customs duties are falling off, by reason of the n o n' of the income tax, and again to resort to indirect taxa- and her property wan se divided, that some ti ate or other it Lion of these poor men's luxuries. (Cheep) Then, I tion, send more especially to Me on the tax on the import of would form itself into a republic. Other pni t i e d say, both on the score of trade to find employ- corn, he would, lam Persuaded in that also, find himself in observers said that upon the demise of the Ki ' mea t for your people and on the score of justice a minority on the division. (Hear. hear-) But my hon. great change would take place in the monarchy. Bar e towards the people, you must make up your minde either friend the member tor Montrose brings forward a proposi- man living expected that that monarchy which seem ed 'Win largely to diminish your expenditure, or to persist in a Lion which contents no principle, but which is a mere firm should ro soon vanish and dieeppear like mist le sne system of direct taxation, to counterbalance the repeal of the embarrusinent, a mere declaration of distrust and not even a remnant behind. (Hear, hear) In thes ' e e ae' eme° indirect duties. I want, therefore, to make the income tax want of confidence in those who carry on the I hope that we are able to see • confirmed e , e'een hear tax, in order to make it a permanent tax. (Hear, businessof thecountry—(hear); and gentlemen with the most man can pretend to say what time may bring about, s u ad u- , hear.) 't he question rally is, can yon ma k e the tax a juster oppoite view., and producing the most contradictory rea- for one, witi not consent to reduce the estimates of then seeL tax than it is now ?—that is really the only question in the sena for agreeing to that proposition, will go, to use a phrase and army in the present state of affairs. (Cheers sa e case. It is a question that ha been a good deal mystified of the hon. gentleman who last spoke, in a motley mine- again, in order that I may not be misrepresented, es I thiA bra king.exceptional cases, instead of dealing with it on the rity into the lobby to vote with him. (Hear.) Suppose Dave already been, that I make that declaratioa with um broad basis of realised property as contradistingeished from those gentlemen were to meet in the lobby, not having posaible wish to see the peace of Europe and ,e property derived from trade and Professions. Thst distinc- heard each other's reasons beforehand, and talk together the world preserved, and that I see nothing e •ne tion preeente • tangible line of demarcation, and the question there. One would say . , "1 am glad to find you here--you before us calculated to enduger that peace. But I think is, can the preeent system be rectified ? Now, the hen. mem- agreeing wahine in wishingto reduce thepahherapealiture, it is the part of wise and prudent men while everything Le ber for Sunderland says that the member forNeweastle- under- and reducing the services for the public departments." " f in uncertainty not to affect security, and while there is da rk. Lyme did not mention cues to prove the hardehip of the sir!" would be the an.swee ; "on the cottrary. I thiuk them nem around us, not to pretend tha reasons e walking in th e existing system. I should have thought th at scarcely neomeary ; entirely insufficient. 1 isb to increase them." (" Hear," broad day. (Cheers.) For these , therefore, I hut perhaps he will permit me to mention a Ca3e. I will and a laugh.) Another would turn to the gentleman stand- neither agree to the proposition of the noble lord to take el suppose the cases of two men who have paid the tax fur 30 lag next him, and ley, "I ► am glad that you want with me te income tax for one year only in order to h e ,. a int . • Yom , I will take a surgeon, • lawyer, or a lite-leery man—a put an end to this freer-trade system. and to re-impose tax upon corn and raw cotton, nor to that of the bon ""'t man whom income is absolutely derived Irina waste of brain. the tax on corn and cotton wool." " Me, sir ! you are her for Montrose, that we may prepare the wee for . 'u n ti l I will suppose that such a me n h ae 5001. a year for proles - under a very great mistake. I ant a decided free-trailer, reduction in our naval and military fierce'. Varioas a 004 % let m sionel income (or • space of 30 e years. Ho has then had and that is the re - ison I am here." SA laughter.) Sucb and speculations have been indulged io in the coune u te ti - 15,0001- worth of Property. Now, take the case of the are the ineenioue contrivances which, ' it were not for my debate upon matters which I shall but slightly allude this owner of • real estate. worth 1 2 , 0001 - His estates produces hon. friend's straightforward character, I should say he had Some gentlemen have proposed that our colonies shoal tu. him 5001. a year, likewise, but he has in his lifetime not adopted to catch the votes of gentlemen of the moat oppo- reduced in number ; and others that they should be elan- 15,0001. hut 27,0001.: namely, the 16,0001 interest, and site eentiments. (Hear.) As an instance of kneed doned. I must beg of hon. members not to make up th • the 12,0 ' 001. capital that remains. (Cheers.) Now, ought motives advanced in support of this motion only minds upon that question without the most serious cowl e rn il these two men to pay income tax in the tame proportion ? take the epee:ch..' of the two last speakers. The hon. mem time I have always considered our etonies as a pert o ' f e n e — Ought the Man who on the bed of sickness loses every ber for Sanderland says " the ways and means are not su strength of this empire. (Hear, hear.) I may lei • e o — e professional hope, to be placed on the same foot- civet for what I consider the services of the country require, in that view, but if they area part of its strength, Ism notthe ing with the man who la living in idleness and therefore I will vote against the continuum of the tax person who would willingly, from any motive of economy at Bath or Cheltenham on the revenues of his for three years, and eonfine your ways and means to one retrenchment, attempt to reduce it. If it be the choice or estate ? Let me take another case. I will tape the case of year only." Well the hen. member for the West Riding England to descend to a lower scale amongst nations, to of a man in business with 10,00 01 - of capital. He gets 5001. says, .. that is an extraordinary reason, but I that she has been too long powerful, and no lager wishes m en a year interest and 6 per aut. more as a bonus on his pro- agree with him in his elnelusionn But extraordinary influence the doctrines of the world, but will be content with dence and industry- Do you think that • man thus deriving se caw the reason given by the hon. member for Sunderland an humble part, it ie for the country to say so—unl 1,0001. a year for his Wean energy , and perseverance in his the bon. member for the West Riding himself brought not be the instrument L ou cheers) to any into egct o h s trade ought to pay the same as • man of real estate of the out a still more extraordinary one—(hear), for be says, "I I should regard as the degradation of the empire, an d " value of 25,0001. ? ( Hear, hear.) These are real and tan- will vote against this direct tax because I want to Meanie destruction of its pride and glory. (Cheers.) Ot her e t e he gible casts; and I tell you plainly these are the common- direct taxation—(a laugh) : I would rather have an income tlemen took another view, atid said let the taxation (- u. sense views that are held out of doors, and th at people will tax of tea per cent. and make it a permanent substitute for ceuntry be revised. I quim admit that goveniment o thil not patiently submit much longer to the pressure of the pre- thy ereater part of the dir e ct taxation of the country, there- scarcely be better engaged than in au endeavour te I m ath, sent tax upon their incomes. I now come to the argument fore, I will limit this incense tax of 3 per cent. to one year.' vexatious character of many of our tun, and make the of the hon. gentleman who represents Newcastle-upon• (Hear.) But, sir, the question before the house is a very more eq ua lua and just. But to undertake to accomplish that Tyne, and who seems to have come up from simple one, The l a st time the income tax was proposed by task witn a given time, far lea within one year, would be the iron masters and merchants he represents the late government, it was proposed at the eame time that cer- token great presumption upon my p u t. The subject to talk in legal phraseology of tenant* in tail. tam reductions should be made in other taxes dozing that and of the stomp duties alone involved so many qen But there are exceptional cases as compared with those to the f e llewing years of upwards of 4,000,0001. annually in tions, that nut less than a section could be -u d which I have referred. The no n who deserve your first amount, while, at the saute time, a considerable addition voted to their consideration. 1 allow that thee consideration are the merchants, the traders, the prefenional was made in the estimetee, especially those for are many faults and inequalities in our mode then consideration men, and the labouring classes who depend upon them. the naval service. I need not here refer to the taxation, and I hope that we shall be able to remedy them (Hear, hear.) These are the men who keep in motion the neture of those taxes which were so reduced. before very long. But again I say that to pledge myself to whole machine of our social state, and upon them the Those who say ite this house, and thou who have sad so have a plan ready cut and dried by February next, would be wealth—the whole real wealth—of the country depends. loudly out of doors, "We understood when the income tax to do that which I think rash and imprudent. le after (Hear, hear.) Now, what are the °legacies raised against was imposed that parliament pledged itself that it should giving up the two per cent., which we thought, and still an equitable adjustment of this question ? The gentlemen continue only three yearn" could never have supposed that think, would have been an adeantage to the ceuntry, the having a majority of this house, on the treasury bench have admitted the injustice of the tax it was the ietentien of parliament, whatever might be the house shall think fit to vote the income tax for one year as at present imposed. (Hear, hear.) Every leading man mintiest% oi the country—it never could have been supposed i only, Ido say, in spite of the hm. members for Sem in the house has admitted it. But have they taken any pains that if, at the expiration of that time, the country should be derland and the West Riding of York, that they tee es. to remove that injustlce ? Have they shown any desire to in a distres d condition, that we should leave the revenue 5n C.:mitering the credit of tbe country. (Hear h em. ) remove it ? (Hear.) The people ot this country are not a deficiency, or that, on the other hand, we should go back If there were a large party, Unreinmillile—and ir they could be certain th ere was any to those taxes We abolished in 1815 and 1846. No man of formed to restore protection, or in favour of • tante reduction real intention to remove the inequalities of the tax they sense could have underetood that. (Hear.) Then, if not, of expenditure, 1 can conceive that the public en Oit m i g h t would be content. But have you done any one thing, or shown let us consider what have been the circumstances whine ,be preeerved ; lent, as matters now stand, what would any intention of doing anything to effect thisobjeet ? (hear.) make it necessary for us to ask for a renewal of the income be the result of trying these questions? If the noble lord Have you instituted any inquiry ? It is absurd to say the tax at this time. lam sorry to say that the circumstances the member for Lynn were to try the question of prow, inequalities cannot be removed. Appoint a committee on are amply sufficient to justffy that course. In tion, he could not expect to have a majority in his favour ; the subject and let there be uPon it — what there is not in 1846 there was a considerable scarcity of food. In and he would therefore be establishing no system in place of the cabin al equal proportion of merchants, trades and 1847 there was, I may say, an entire want of the food of that of the government, but only creating uncertainty .o profersional men, and of pease , posseming realised property. 5,000,000 of the people. (li i.e.) And in that year you confusion. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member fur the Weat (Hear, hear.) Do this, and in less time than it would take a imported 9,000,000 quarters of grain and 8,000,000 arts. of Biding of York proposes a permanent income tax on girt for winch you had to pay som e 30,000,0001. Yon footing ; but such a p ro p osition would meet with no better than is frequently occupied in determining that coals shall had, , for two commercial panics 'tithe course of one year— fate then that of the hon. member for Cockermeath, who m committee to fix a tariff for a railway com p an y —in less time flour pay Id, a ton, lime led., and corn 2d.-1 will venture to say trade was stopped, and mazy of the first mercantile houses ably introduced it to the holm, but who had only 140 mem some means will be discovered for raising this tax in a man- in the country were unable to stand their ground. Any hers to vote with him, while 317 voted against him. (near.) nee that shall satisfy the country, and remove all the ob- man would suppose (rem the mere allusion to such events If the house in that state of thiogs refuses to the govern- jections which have been justly made against it. (Hear, that coin revenue eau ecarcely be at this time in a very mein that which they think ',emery for the public ciedit hear But there ha. been no such attempt on the part of flourisg etate—(hear)—and that if it had kept up tall of the country, it will be disgraceful to theca any longer to government, and it is their dry , dogged, and pedantic near to what it has been in former years it is as much as remain ministers of the crown. (Hear.) So leng as we adhesion to the tax in its present form that has roused the could be expected. No one could suppose that 5,000,0001. carry on the public affairs we must do so in such manner as country on the subject. (Hear, hear.) If the tax were would have been replaced by increased consumption, will tend to the public welfare • and we think that it would graduated, and imposed fairly on all kinds of income accord- under such circumstances. (Hear.) It appears then, sir, not be consulting the public welfare, but be d ely i t ing to their value, as proposed by the hon. member for to me, that there are circumstances to induce parliament to it, were we to consent to the ptoposition of the hen member Cockerinouth, I can say, so far SS the manufacturers of consent to a renewal of the tar, and that for the name for Montrose. The hon. member for Senderlend and others the north of England are concerned, that there would be no period fur which it has been granted on the two former supported that proposition because they . had no confidence objection made to it. We who wish to improve thin tax for the occumions. (Meer.)says the hon. member for the in the government. That might be a just coutse ; but I purpoie of making it permanent are cherged with being the West Riding (Mr. Cobden), renewing a discussion which beg to state to the house what has been our position, and enemies of an income tax altogether—(heart—and I must I thought we had disposed of on a former evening, "if this what the difficulties with which we have had to cement, confess I was astonished then my hon. friend the member tax had been made more equal in its preseure, the house They were certainly no artificial difficalties. No one will for Weethury (Mr. Wilton) the other night adopt this line an he country would have willingly consented to it" say that the total failure of the food of 5,000,000 of argument. I may here be permitted to warn (Ideal, hear.) Ido not wish to renew that discussion, but was a trifling calamity. (Hear, hear.) We en my host, friend spinet his habit of patting on to say that it appears to me that thou who argue for reader- devoured to meet that ea/amity, on the one bud, the back, one after another, members of more ape- Mg the tax more equal than it is now—and I admit, as Iby giving the utmost freedom of importation to food—and rience than himself, and afterward", by way of compensation, have always admitted, that inequalities do exist—those triat measure succeeded even beyond our expectations—and to give each a slight reproof. ([lsar, hear.) My hen. who so argue place themselves in this dilemma—they either on the other by direetly feeding 3,000,000 of people. We friend has, I know, convinced one hon. gentlemen by his take a particular class, as the schedule of trade and professions, leave lately had another evil to contend against in, the same speech of the injustice of the tax, for no one has shown that or the schedule reserving to any particular kind of comma- part of the kingdom, against the practice of asemeinatioa, injustice more clearly than he has himself. (" Hear," and mores leave many cases of hardship and inustice even against those murderous corracies which were raging a laugh.) My hon. friend aye that it the tax is not retained glaring than those they propose to remedy; or, if they through the country, overbearing all law and order. That in its present form, and to its present amount, the revenue do not take that coarse, but aemt to go further, they must evil hes been met partly by a law of • mild orde r . that and rah by the vigorous administration of the Lord-Lieutenant. will be endangered. Then he charges us with being the go into almost the individual cases which have been alluded P persons who seek to endanger the revenue because we desire to by the hon. member for Neweamle (Mr. Headlam) te- (Lend cheers.) I believe that under that ariministratioe so to improve theta: as to make it a permanent one. (Hear, night—to the endbas variety of professions, to rent. charges judges and juries have admirably performed their duty, and hear.) Then again he says I will vote against this motion, for life, leaseholds, money in the funds settled on distant re- that there has been no failure either in obtaining endues but shall be prepared in committee to support a modification 'lotions, to every species of interest arising out of every against or the conviction of the miscreants who have been of the tax, apparently furreging altogether that that goes- description of property and tenure, which, in a country of guilty of those horrible acts. So far the govern ties has been already decided on the motion of the member such complicated and intricate rel ations ' of society, would meat have been successful in meeting that great evil. for Cockermouth on one occasion, when I believe my hon. confound toe experience of any man. But were you to One hon. gentleman hag said to-nieht, and has almost friend i Mr. Wilson) was not present, and possibly may not attempt this not only would you have a task of unexam- given it as his reason for voting for the proposition of the be ewer° of the fact. But now that he knows that question pled difficulty, but the tax would be far more inquisitorial hon. member for Montrose, that the Lord Lieutenut of has been settled, and when I tell him that the leaders of than it has ever been. (Hear.) It would not be more pro- Ireland was gagging the people, and not allowing to them parties on both sides have spoken, as well as voted, against ductive, but it would be twice as vexatious. (Hear.) This the tree expression of opinion. (Loud laughter.) I 'bond any modification of the income tax, I hope--indeed, I be- appears to me the dilemma those gentlemen place themselves have thought that if any one bad looked at the Irish news lieve—my hon. friend the member for Westbury, under these in who attempt to make the tax more equal ; and Ism by papers lately, he must have area l o o eo far from gagging the circumstances, having himself denounced the injustice of the no means satisfied when the hon. member for the West People, so far from Preventing the tree ellnemion of the tax so strongly, will, notwithstanding his declaration that he Riding says that those classes who are engaged in public voice, that I believe treason was nem rso opeoly pro would oppose the motion, walk out with us into the lobby to trade, professions, and labour, comprehend all the famed, or with such audacity as at the present moment restrict that injustice to 13 months, instead of allowing it to energy and wealth of the country, and therefore are (Loud cries of 0 Hear, hear.) But, sir, if it shall please continue for three years. 5" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) entitled to this advantage. Ido not think we should isn- this house no to agree with the honourable member for With moat naiverif, my hon. friend said he had heard no pose the burden accor di ng to the merits of the party, or say Montrose ; to t -ight if power is to rentals in our hands n complaints of the inquisatorial nature of the tax. Why, my that a country gentleman is not to be treated fairly when if ney right ho friend there cretary for the ,lour Dt. hon. friend knows very well that this is just the you are laying on taxes because he has not so much merit so. ment and the n. or-eutenant are still to wield the powers thing that men complain of only their sone, their brothers, the manufacturers. I must protest against that doctrine ; of the law in Ireland ; I trust that we than be able to meet and their mo w e r s nmate connexions. The only O r of this end in this respect I agree with the hen , member for Bucks, these expressions of sedition—Houd theme —tins determine. tax, he said, those censequent upon its inequalities. that you must not allow any close ia this country to be run tion to join any enemy, whoever he may tic, that maybe (Hear, hear.) Why that is the whole question. (Hear, down by the mistimed superiority of =other. (Hear, opposed to the sovereign of this country. (Continued cheese hear.) No ene would have • right to complain or any tax hear.) The only fair way we can take is to treat all elms.. I trust that we shall be able to put down this conspirece, if it were an equal tax, and the money wit really wanted justly, whether they be connected with the land, whether and to maintain for the welter of the people of Iretaud that for the purposes of the state. But whether the tax be just they are engaged in trade and professions or whether supremacy of law and order, without which they cannot or not, is the whole ground of difference between the govern- they derive their incomes from money in the fuieds, without hope to improve in industry, in civilisation, in morals, or it meet and the people. (Hear, hear.) This has been the reference to their merits, but only taking care to assess elf religion. (Loud cheers.) Such at least will be our tempt ground of almost all the revolutions that have taken ,that fairly . and justly. {Bear , hear.) But the bon, gentleman We are not insensible to the difficulties of the situation in in this country. a rea, hear.) We are told, moreover, that say s it would have been *erne consolation if there had been which we stand, nor unaware a the perils which may sat in this m out we are about to endanger the revenue. Now any attempt to make this dittinction. I stated on a fOrsner round us on every side; but if we have the confidence of this let us inquire what is really the question before the house ; evening, that my right hon. f ie nd and myself had attempted house we may hope to meet and to sanuount them. and when we have done so, I hope we shall have no to draw some line by which we could make the tax appear (Cheers.) If not honoured with that confidence we me more repeated those calumnies which have been to bear more justly on all classes, but that we could fied only hope that the administration of affairs may be placed ia cast by previous speakers on the manufacturing none which would not be immediately open to attack and other hands, better calculated to carry on those &transfix comunity. The question is tr this tax shall invasion, and that if we gave way in any one case, we the welfare and prosperity of her Majesty and her people. ho n now agreed to for fifteen . months or for three years. should be obliged to give way in other cases of hardship Mr. WAKLEY rose and attempted to address the home, (Hear, hear.) This involves no defalcation of revenue. still more severs than that with which we had death but the incessant Mite Of "dived. " prevented his o'otaining (Hear, hear.) Parliament, I suppose, will meet again next Parsing from that question I find the noble lord the manner a hearing. At last the hon. member was understood to February, as it met last month, and i t, will then be competent for Lynn taking one of the two mane grounds upon which move that the chairman should report pronrees. for us, if we cannot in the meantime amend the tax, to re- we are called on to vote to-night, and decides that it would The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIinQUER entrestel new it in its present shape. But, sir, I venture to redict if be better to give up direct tasetion and resort to indirect. the house to give the hon. Member a hearing, as great pane we have a majority on my hon. friend's motion to-night, If it is right to impose indirect taxation, let us pursue that inconvenience might result if the h ear in were postponed and we decide that the tax shall be amended, that long, be- course, and let the people get rid of the income tax, shice beyond that evening. fore twelve months shell hove dented the government and they el to t e a burden. That course would be far neere Mr. WAKLEY resumed—He trusted that se no member the parliament will contrive means to make the tsx more pleasiog to people than the adoption of the income tee for a metropolitan borough had as yet spoken eis the acceptable to the whole communiey. We have no wish for a tor one yeer ; for many ot the w andh are subject to thet question the house would not refuse him its sandlot deficient revenue ;we are as anxious for the maintenance of tax are now in a seam of distress, anything that would for a few moments. The no lord at the head of the go public credit as any class, and rest aesured, if at any time give them relief would he palatable to them. The noble vernment had intimated to the house in distinct terms that danger or loss should arise to the public creditor, it will not lord says a year hence you can take it off ; but a year hence if the motion of the hon. member fur Montrose were carried result from the manufacturing commuaity. (Hear. hear.) those classes may be in • position not to require or care for the government would resign. He (Mr. Wakley) had We will punt our last coat before we will per- its removal. I say, therefore, that if toe nolne lord always looked upon such intimations as ve ry, s mit that. (Cheers.) We will cut down our expenses is in favour 01 indirect taxation, he should melte Monet. (Oh, oh.) The noble lord knew well that to enable us to meet the requirements of the state; but we Some proposal on the eubject, instead of amti t' there were many boo, member. of that hou to whom de expect that the expenses of the state will be cut down that of the hon. member for Montrose. In 1811 p o pr d it would not be very convenient to meet their c also. (Hear, hear.) But, under all circumstances, we say a fixed duty of Bs. upon corn, and a differential duty r ot In. at the present moment, and therefore he made mire of tir the pnblic creditor shall he paid— {cheep) —and the very upon sugar, and I have lived to see them who were the votes if his threat should be believed. (Meer, hear.) mon ths last thing the people in the manufecturing districts will tea- strop of protectionists, and who objected to that proposal, disagreed with the noble lord now, the noble Ird must AM sent to is a national bankruptcy. (Much cheering.) And ask since for something less than Bt. as a protecting duty oii blame him, seeing that he had be en convinced by the noble that, if for no other motive, became, as the hon. member for corn, and through deputations alter deputations, and iv, ii lord's arguments iu 1842 and 1845. (Hear, hear.) The hoe. Weetbury has sail, what class would suffer so much from by a distinct preposition in the II one of Lords. ink ler member, having quoted some pa-sages frum klairead. national bankruptcy as the manufacturing population ? something,less than 12e. differential deity upon sugar. B•it preeeeded to say, that although he opposed the Something hit has been said by almost every speaker who de- although that would have been a step in advance in 1511, vernment on the question of the income tax • lie sires to maintain this tax in its present objeetionable form, it would be a retrograde step at the present moeueet- did not diaapprove of their Irish policy, Tog about the events which have recently occurred in a neigh- (11earemar.) Wein parliament has passed an act respectieg certainly were not gagging the hint peeple. taxes he bouring country. 1, however, draw a different conclusion corn, by which, in Feb. next, all duties will he merely eio asked was, that the same license should he eaten led to the irons those events from that which has been drawn from mined ; and that being to, would it be wit, of ;,.roam lit to people of this country. The noble lord had reoeived a them and rested upon by hon. gentlemen who have referred lay a perpetual tax upon the in'roduction o I feud, and anus menu cheering from the opposite side of the house; bat 11 " to them as an argument ag Oust this motion. I see in those enhance the Price of bread ? Ido not think that by so ex 3 noble lord's government would not stand long if he acted fa events reaeone Why the government of this country should course of legislation we could hope to enlist th e sympro nits as to please the tory, or as he (Mr. Wake)) celled it , t he not depend upon a numerical majority of the house—(hear, of the people. (Hear, hear.) Thee oe. member for S 'mere re ally destructive party. (" Oh," from the opposition/ h ar)—but why they should endeavour to ascertain setshire took a view ue that questiowhich I think fair and The noble lord might depend up o f it they were coy hugh' n e real sentiments of the country. (Cheers.) We just. He said that although his onions were uncOmiged, ing at him. (lieu, hear.) One of the ablest amongst them had a division the other day on the motion of he deems it only rightthat the system adopted by parliament the bon. member for Cockermouth. here list, majority should have a fair onto lam sure that at toe present vernmeot—ohe which had committed the most eetraordinsrl had called the government a weak government --a bed gm of 175 spinet him ; but look at the , division and say if moment the great majy p u blic opinion out of doors was not with the minority ? attempt to enforce a permanent duty upon ciorn. I thee m o wn the greatest incapacity. But if that hos. gent-non" (Hear, hear.) So it will be to-night if the minority are with come to the alternative propoition of the hun. member fee a this house would toilet soy mistakes in monetary matters, and had, in eves }mine else, were anxious to see the government .lo th, it duty he should Limo; it war no substitute for taxes remov e d, or bonne , the motion of my hen. friend the member for Montle/ie. Do Montrose—:hat there should be a large reduction in our hot depend upon your whippertein ; and, euppose that, estimates ; and upon this subject, I must say, there have to idle away their time. The inoome tot had not having obeeirod a majority, you have done all th it is name been made some very extraordinary statements. Both ine now the vecommendation it had in the right hon. bsronees eery. Take warning from what has happened elsewhere. hon. members Mr Montrose and for Southwark have Stated, i give them a short term, not three years, over winch You are epeuelingnarge sums in fortificat i on and armament ; that putting together the surplus of the year, January, 1816, but the danger ts not fr on without—it is from within, and the deficiency of January 1818, the present government taking a right souree with rented to the mance. An ianto (Hear, bear.) You need not fear the people will resort to must have increased the expenditure by 6,000,0001. That is presaion prevailed out of doors that they were indifferent violence. We shall have no tumult here, as they have had a most extravagant insertion ; and 1 confess, coming fromel they taken off the people. But at preeent that Louie was not the sufferings of the working people. (Oh, ch.) Di . in a neighbouring country. There is no necessity' for it. chow hon. gentlenten, perfectly astonished me ; for I filed, There is no cause fur tumult in this country. Here we have taking all tome estimates of the present year which ineolvea working people ? (Hear hear.) Look at the tex on beer. those rights and privileges ef meeting and discuesion, the an increase either agreed to are proposed, thatthe increase only nh— , it was nonsense to talk of free trade in a couutry where absence of which ocnoioued the revolution in France. The amounts, for the navy, army, and ordnanee, to about the lknner was not allowed to mannereture hit on tax themeelves in the same proper:ion cei they tweed tne danger here is from this house not acting in accordance with 1,200,0001., and with the miscellaneous, to little more than under a duty of Bs. in every 20e. lie believed thee were it a public opinion out of doors—(hear, bear)—and refusing to 1,500,0001. But the question is, is it pomible to make such a I. gistate on those principles of justice and fair dealing to the reduction in the estimates u would enable this house to inn halfpence a quart. (Herr, hear) The noble lord dmela ammonite, which alone can secure the iastitutions of this or prose with tbe income tax alter the present year ? and tu help the working people, who had helped biro in torm b. er any other eeentry. (Hear, hear.) that question I must give a detided negative. We withdrew struggles. All he aimed for them was justice. but Met he ~.. for the duty the working man could get his beer tor , , Lord J. RUSSELL said—Mr. 13ernal, in addrasing my- our original premnition in obedience to the general sense of Oared they would nut get until they were umre lolly eeP eented in that house. (Hear, hear, end erica of e (4 , usstemeot welt to the question before you, I feel that if it were only the country ; but we do think it necessary, for the credit of incessary tor ma to allude to those subjects which come pro- the country, to ask for this tax for not lees than three yeene lie thought that this income tax Monad not be c. eadente r p,rly under discussion in reference to the propontion which hoping that the proceeds of 1849 and ISSO may enable three years until its ob actionable provnionsneee modonne: has been made by my hon. friend the member for Montrose, us to diapense with it at the end of that period, ai The treatment which a late member of thet I idd hac.i to eetain tin conemntee but a very few nen as toner the de fi ciency of the present year. lielden, of Oldham, ut none: . ;Hear.) B e t I I,s,Ne he e rj, to m y -,,t c ,„i 4 hinoit Leoking at the question in that light, you can make no re- n e a n ein .„, nen ne annena, unarm om he had received nom the income tem eol - , en ~I ` ~1, ~i~ THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 14, 1848.