The Express. — London, England, 1853-04-27 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT 110U811 OF LOItDS.—TrnDAT, Aran. 20. Tito Lour Crasirrattort took hit seat at n reeves. PETI !TUNS PRESENTED. lON or Ass,: a*:*cos Bict..—By Lord St. LEONARDS, from five building societies in Birmingham, egalast. J autos Dulantuitas BILL.—By Lord WODEHOUSR Irma the Tees Cowl of Nereich ; and the Earl of BESS. 11101tOUtill. (rum Bristol ; is favour of. By Lord LY2IB RC KST, from the University of Cambridge; the Eul of HA It DW ICKR. from several places is Cambridgeshire; the Earl of EIIAPTESEURY, from 1.1*.h, Wiston.aa•Treat, et. Jams's. Esastagtoa, and other pleas ; against. MALT Tat—By the Earl of 11.‘RDWICKE, from Cambridgeshire, realest Ormati or TM. C PALACS o BUNT/ATS.- 111 the Eal of SHAFTESBURY, from Trinity Our el, Misuse; teachers of the Westminster Chapel It Igesl Beheld ; Committee of Pear street Ragged School ; North Sri, TIT, and other plates; against. H. at. DOCTRI/INN —By the Earl of SHAFTESBURY. from 2.,i00 persoas at Plymouth, preying for a repudiation of all Email' doctrines. REGISTRATION OP ASSURANCES DILL. vh,.. LORD CHANCELLOR, in moving the committee idd this 1,111, said the select committee had gone through the bW sad We sons alterations, which they had thought expedient. The house thew went into committee. Lord ST. LSONARDS said he did not oljeet to the shanties". whisk Lad been made by the select committee ; but his objections to dm bill were in no respect removed. Alter a short conversation the bill paned through com mittcr,aad was reported to the house. AUSTRALIAN MAILS. Lord WHA.RifeielPiEasii ii.;Folitmuter•General whether any and what arrangements had been made for the postal service to Australia, in consequence of the dies*. lutmo of the contract with the Australian Royal Mail Company Vault:lot CANNING said the noble lord had somewhat overstated the deficiency of communication that existed with Australia in consequence of the termination of the untrue with the Australian Steam Packet Company. He maw queenly observed, which was no doubt correct, that there was a communication already secured on alternate months by the overland mail, branching off at Singapore. That communication was undisturbed by the termination of the contract with the Australian Steam Packet Company, inasibuih as it rested on the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Packet Company, and he had no reason to doubt that they would fulfil their engagement. So far the communica tion with the Australian colonies was secured by the shortest route, which had at present been employed. In regard to the supple of another alternate monthly communication in consequence of the failure of the Austra lian Strain Packet Company, he must be allowed to remind their lordships that upon the secession of her Majesty's pre sent government to office they roved, as stated in the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer a few nights ago, that the engagements to which the revenue of this country was liable to early on the packet service amounted to no less than 800,00 W. a year. It need no argument to show that that sum for the purposes to which it was applied was enor mous. It was time that a certain amount, he was sorry to say not so large an amount as they might aspect, was returned to the revenue in the shape of pastas. ; _but it was not only the amount of this sum that weighed on government, but it was the fact that the great majority of the contracts under which these sums were to be paid were contracts for terms varying from 7.9. 10, and 11 years. Consequently, unless in the case of some such accident as happened to the Australian Steam Packet Company,whereby,from the satire failure of the contract the government has it in their power to put an end to it, the government mast keep up this expenditure (or that number of years. Her Majesty's government turned their attention to the subject, and lost no time in ascer taining whether some measure might not be taken to relieve the menus from these heavy payments. While this investigation was being proceeded with, the op-, portuni:y arising from the failure of the Australian Steam Packet Company occurred. They thought it their duty to devil, some effective system which would be more marital eal,, and would satisfy all the wants of the community both in this country and the colonies. Having this object ia ' vieW,her Majesty's government determined that it would not be consistent with their duty to accept any overtures to en ter into long contracts such as that which had just lapsed, sad accordingly one or two offers made on the pert of other companies to take up the lapse of service of the Australian Stearn Packet Company had not been accepted. The course which her Majesty's government thought to pursue was this—they thought, as in other cases where ships were employed, so the carriage of the mails by pri vate enterprise might be *ailed into requisition. With this view, it was their intuition to issue, by advertisements, in citations to tender to carry one or more mails in alternate months to the Australian colonies, It was the intention of government to prescribe the price which they were willing to pay for this service, and the only item on which tenders would be asked from the carious essesercial and shipping firms who entered into the e would be as to the time within which the service aeatZ he yeefereaml. It was the intention of government to tie up these pub sslerel bete the engagement with es few stipulations se peasibie, asp escape seek as might he sesessmy for the pummel departure of the ship, aad the soh essmyerice of the malls. Idelikict to the w sdiliess„ the Pipping company which would undertake le whits the is the shortest Pm wield maim the seatreet.. Whetherder Majesty's mem- smut would ester into a melesse Pe am Pis Iwo or tree voyages, Is a matter whisk west lima ea Pim sad whisk might dosed es the Sesame which miglt ho ressived ; but wider se elesemelweere would ',serenest at roast mane to ester kW a kes sea Gapes eagagemeat he a member et yew, essilflag the revenue wit ma Pm isms as were sew paid seder Um 'persist spasm of sesqpks esstrarts. There was no Sesta this wee to a seeleis agree ia the eater* of as expe riment, awl shitemk he APpretly mord= of mem, it war still a persPlar PP the Mem yid* pswesteset might think peeve le eihr might set he emit se the shipping later'st weld be dimiend to weep, bet if seek were the am be eslldipslel se iessevosissee *kw le the salads', or to the seem esselry, bosom the istiesseres betimes Ragbag mad Aseleella hal peers se vapidly sad benne se missive within the kW be, smiths, that even if the gemmiseat were dyed to resort to the ant of pariliemep whisk ambles them so employ any ship emiliag Res Pi mashy to seamy letters, them was little Put that Pew Paid be scarcely say in- Matealemile awl May. Is the aurae of three swaths of the proses; year the umber ef vaseh that had PR the English pens Pe Australia emesated te no lees they 70 a mach, assay of low baths perPresed previous voyages at a great rate of= andsemi at a rester rate even then stesasses. hes if Ps we skald arias, sad the isparimeed width gevermaset wee Pest ee 'make with a view ef sikelellow the premise et the heavy sapeame is the eselesep lbw seed be se Par la the part a/ kis mottle *WI and the pules that say swims lametvesiesse would asichine te OA milk, se is Asetrslia. Berl ef lA3DWICLB said it wee supposed that : a rm of assumed camels might be employed whi sk sk be weed le line of war. We isibewd a larger tied of vend le be SA by the watreelss bet it tamed at that the swam tke vessels bed set peeping arm d, asainest. sod lbey weep impales et bele. awed. la se Weenie was &see properellea made A. the armies et thee. vends or to we whe ther they woes towable of be eke seek armament. l Wispy es web eld bees list it it bed buss *seeds sowesery e ewe lbw w WWI, Med. 79 Smits the root eldest Gl thus Semen timid be set le approach led to escape lien skips el waft Thy amid he by so means armed ships, but Amnia be Wet IP Weed and safety. He did set WA es the ewe sew sled Set Own was say difficult, la main anespessels Ike re bless. When the fine was pall tie metre* was el ea sad. Be believed the fines by weld set be aeon Ikea 1110.11811, aai he believed the whole of the astseels up, that same mCrhi he wavedw list year. Earl OUT emliseed that a great 'mistake had bees made is set seleisatly ',dosing the seat at whisk bitten wee seat to the osiosies. The charge of ewe Palm each letter was se Pik that lettere were only mat spesisl OSIMISMIL If deg damped a penny per the eine as Is this ammehy, believed the freight would anneal to shat Mt a Ws. Viassisat CANNING said he believed that paying *s hie wield by is mew maim the government of tbiew trams. la word to the robanisa of postage, it should be remembered that the robed= to ea* peasy in this swats had bees attended with ass..., became of the opportunities et ending beton, but that circunistanas did set apply to the uses=.. when they had to deal with skips sad steamers, whereas hen they had to deal with raUway companies. In answer to questions from Earl TALBOT, Viscount CANNING said it was not intended that they should limit thameslves to one route in their sommanication with Australia- With regard to the second question, at this moment there wee a proposition for the redaction of the postage with Fresco from her Ildejeety's governmeat, to which he bed received no answer, but to which her Ma jesty', goveramest was perfectly willing to accede if the French 'overwrite was willing. THI ART OF NAVIGATION. Lord WROTTZSLEY this rose, is parmanee of notice, " to direst the attend= Of the hose; to s NM& pondenat between the United /Wm government, her 31.. piety's government, sod the lime Iliety, in referents, to • comprehenalre mahouts far laweilsig the art of rig n= tion, in which the United Statiasgensentosst have the co-operation of her Majesty's * Moult en plan be had is view would add to g =st Monday in the departments of meteorology and o tt=y to nit extent which it was hardly possible to . Tao United States having sanctioned the adoption of the plan in oheir own country had, with the view of making it an effective as possible, invited th• co-operation of the prier el* maratime nations, and especially this country. The prepoeition having been made to our government, it MB been refericd by them to the Royal Society and to the British Assecistion for the Advancement of Science, and I had received the sanction of both those bodies. It was Inn that this project had not been adopted by the government. It was ant entertained by the last government, mad It Wail not entertained by the present go vernmen t. Rs oadholot 12= that a phis of this simple and impeeeene MOM bandied Mang from department to departing* leg fourteen months, and at this moment they were hardlyenere advanced than they were at the beginning. Tim late jp.verament had some claims on the gratitude of men of winos, sad he should be sorry to ignore the claims of the present government. There wee only one cause of mis• giving among ow Oedema in the present government, and that was th• ant of the primal gut Lord el the Admiralty in hiving auspendid the naritime survey of the British coast. Ile hoped that that survey would be resumed. He sow came to the plan which be to bring tinder the eon- *lactation of the House. It was instituted by the eo n doctor or the laberatory at tic national olszi , rvatory, at Waahingtoo. in the Coifed States, wise Ent ceived the ids• of requiriag &lithe na Asters of memairtilo vessels tO enter is their log boobs is addition to all the information which thou deco mints usually eentain.Ml semant of all phenomena they might observe at sea whichvould be 'rendered availa ble for the improvement of hydrograpby, and generally Sr the advancement of science. The plan was that the log books containing these reports should be all sent to the Observatory at Washington, and that the data so furnished should be collated and employed in the construction of new sad improved charts, which should be =geared at the ex pense of government, and furnished to the masters of ves tals in return for the material so supplied. The custom house officen were directed to give circulars containing in structions to the masters of vessels, but no fruit came of this measure. The gentleman he had referred to, however, collected • number of logbooks, and discovered a new and improved route to Rio. It was tried, and the voyage which had been usually made in 41 days was made is 29 days. From this time the whole aspect of affairs seemed to change. Materials flowed in in abundance, and now there are upwards of a thousand masters of ships en gaged night and day in recording these observations. The observations were regularly brought to the Observatory at Washington, and all the facts up to November, 18.51, were published in • book which he now held in his hand. It appeared that in the old route to Rio, vessels were in the habit of going as far east as the 19th degree west longitude for the purpose of avoiding a current which set in from Cape St. Lucar. It was shown that it was possible to sail in • great circle a great part of the way, and instead of stopping at longitude 17, it was possible to cross in, and save 00 miles of the distance. The noble lord then re fined to the manner in which these charts are made; and concluded by thanking the house for the kindness with which they had heard him, and stated that he should be happy if he should have persuaded them that the matter was worthy of their attention ; for he believed it was the bounden duty of this country, which had risen to so high a position in science end in art, to hold out to them a foster up hand. (" Hear, hear," and cheers.) Earl GRANVILLE said that the interesting, useful, and in some parts amusing statement of the noble lord, fully justified the house in expressing, by their cheers, how un necessary it was for the noble lord to apologise for bringing the subject before them. lie would, without trespassing at I any length on their lordships, endeavour to show that his noble friend had not taken • calm and philosophical view of the proceedings of the government and the Admiralty, with reference to this plan, as well as of the views entertained by the governmeat with regard to the promise of science. With respect to what had been said by the noble lord of the neglect of a subject, appeared to him (Lord Granville) connected with the welfare of all mankind, and more especi ally of a nation—a large portion of the inhabitants of which had devoted themselves to maritime pursuits ; it would be Ken by the papers which bad been laid before the house, that in furtherance of this project, • book which had been received by Lord Palmerstsn was directed by him to be sent to Sir John Burgoyne, Ind which had reference to the taking of meteorological observatioas. He (Lord Granville) received information on the subject at the Foreign-odloe on the 19th February ; and, five days after, he directed:Mr. Addington to write to Sir John Burgoyne for further information, in order to the promo tion of the object in view. The matter then feli into the hands of the late government, and although the corre spondence did not go on quite so briskly as was desir able, yet by reading the correspondence, so far as could be gathered from what they had written, it would appear that it was the desire of the government to promote the subject. Then on coming to the share which Lord Claren don had in the matter, it would be found that eight days after he had received the observations of the American government with regard to the opinion of the Royal Society, he wrote to the Treasury, requesting that they would take such steps as they might think right and proper in order forthwith to carry out the object in qua tion. (Hear, hear.) The subject was now before that department, not a very idle one just at present, with a view to the carrying oat of Lord Clarendon's report. Several questions were, however, to be considered. In the first place, the superintendence of the plan and the persons to whom it was to be referred ; and there was also another point, namely, that there was a quantity of valuable matter relating to the subject deposited in our archives which was in a very undigested state, and which it would be desirable to have digested and arranged. The matter could not be under the control of existing boards, and it was not Set c ra id ble to create irresponsible boards for the purpose. There was one important aossideration, which had bees mentioned by his noble kind, end that was that, except by accident, none of our saws es based ness-of- war possessed the instruments seesessay hr monies ebeserations of this kind, and that defidensy was greater still in the merchant service. He had thus shown that this subject had received the Antietam of the government, and that they were anxious to pie It every possible montane*. His no'ble friend bad made wee mar ks of • curious character on the alterations whisk When made in the surveys carried on by the navy. He (Lied Granville) was able to state that no survey had been stopped, or any home survey nu except that at the mouth of the Thames, which had e sacral embh i s course of twisty years. His noble friend mil that survey could trot be finished on sessnat of the shiltia. sands. It was clear that you could an have a yompstail survey en shifting sands, but it was the istsetien of the remanent that the survey at the meth of the Thome MOM' be sostiend from time to time. With regard to lite meditation olio:pease in the sur veys that were to be somisd on, that would be effected by an employing pat eeptains, but substituting for them medics, who, to this bosom of the navy, were found fully able to carry on the serve3rs is a competent manner. He thought it was imps/bat, both for the interests of the sei sms elks es entry leneU, es well as with • view to the obeminlng of ieseseable mosey gnats from the repreenta tires of tie people to the ether house, to show that economy had been cimod. (The noble earl, with referees* to this pan gusted • passage bass • smash of Sir J. floasebell. Mesh he urged. is Abb. "bat essatmy ia malibg ems ss • virtu, ms miaow is ggsa • sod that every too mach asked was so anenrown away.") He Merl Granville) fully essearredia that opinion. The British Atesetatioa had kept is view the grineiple of easesmy in asking, nod hem 1836 every s.. floads. from that moiety o d d the Royal Society bed lose sitessfally =dto by the lO.ornioa Ge The eVI then refereed le so shormalsa of Dr. wbswel to rapid le the miaow given by gmesmasmit is 11112 to the des* of misses, sod which woo Is the albs that, "kg that mime sa aolortakiag bad him sabred on he a sum of the luswitriel ebbe. sembissel with the =of • and survey mil end observations in puts anis world; whisk was a scientific opera tion far prpasisi anything whisk had bees before at tempted, egad was sash an we as Basso might have de signed." At • lass wise Lied J. immil by ens of his lost ow hod pooled 1,0001. a year Is be awned of the Rope Iludety. w hic h had bum nest fruitful in mend IBM" sad he believed that the re emsrohos of Hama and °them were billy owing Is S part Wl* regard I. Pulligc= NNW oisbg so_ efillsa in the most Of the Mom of Malt" of 18.51, they had elm they had Tests ham la e ft s home a absatthe breach of the Beard of , he Mesh bed essursd the valuable samba sf De. Ploy kir. Mb a they vivo le Os premed= se sslobles sensation, me aa= of SAIL a bad bola graded for Monti& repass end hr eh LL besmostion from saw ennntrise mod am sidmatille ssimelsa la this country. Moro was maim wiallso Mesh, *sigh • moll sop, be thought moil be Moss haw m important ethos, and the wu sa sal whit* had Imo mods by dm I Cssessittes of E mnangmes thosliso of the Privy Osnooll for &Main the means toe stems of obleabg at • mail ex pose memstions iabinsisals. soled only MA with to this poommena. while many was dm es emboss moo who demised ask lima to the mole of wham, it was Wooden duty of the goommassa to in swig _milmse Ins powsinsani fa agleam which ems erased ea an *a plod* Mesh lb* goomment wove doghouse of ponsirring, mad yet le amid doing that whisk mold be MOW does by individuals without them, and Isabsg minor meats to that eelf-ainion which had whined so many *Meets In this country. (Hear, hear.) Lead COLCHESTER shortly explained tbi course taken by the Board of Thee end the lf under the i.e comma Me tbe w stl i ts il : 4 4% the noble Iced they had niased every anxiety to do, end e=hh gradiessima at finding Xhat the pre sent government blooded Is like up the subject. Lord MONTRAGLI seemed to the assistance given to ecientile Ann by the cane meat of Lord Melbourne in 1836 sad ISM when he was nanected with the Treasury, and urged that it was • mistake on the part of the public to suppose that the promotion of scientific pursuits was attended with great expense, whereas, in fact, the expense woo to ho counted, not by thousands, but by hundreds of ponds. He also drew attention to the indirect but imper taat result which would be likely to attend observations of the kid now proposed, which invited the co-operation for ON common object of all the nations of the earth. The subject then dropped. The LORD CHANCELLOR presented a petition from the managing committee of the Metropolitan Law Associa tion, praying for reform is the mods of keeping accounts la Chaacery and in the Accountant-General's office. The house then adjourned at 20 minutes to 8. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—TITZSDAY, APRIL 26. The Braman took the chairat a quarter to 4 o'clock. NEW MEMBEitS. Mr. Kaoott took ths oaths and his seat for the borough of Athlone, on his re-election after hie appointment as Bolicitar•Gsneral for Ireland. Mr. B. T. WOODD took the oath/ and his seat for the borough of Knareabossugh, in the rooms of Mr. J. P. B. Westhead, whom election bas been declared void. PRIVATE BUSINESS. TalaD BRADINOS.—The Edinburgh High-street and Railway Station, dc., Bill ; the Great Orimsby [remot a:tent Bill; and the Wakefield Market Bill, were read • third time and passed. BILLS OnDIkID TO MI RIAU A num.—The Noroich Waterworks Bill • • the Stalordshira Pott er i es Waterworks Bill; and the Roseendale Waterworks Bill, whisk had been ordered to Be upon the table, were consi dered, and ordered to be read • third time. BICOND RICADIIIOII.—The London and South Western Railway (Basingstoke and Salisbury Branch) Bill; and Poole Harbour and Port (No. 2) Bill, were read a second Um.. BERMONDSEY REGULATION BILL. Mr. BRADY sa;.d be had allowed his name to be placed at the back of tay bill, booms it bad been represented tv him as a measure calculated to present those scenes by whack churches were desecrated on Easter Mondays and Tuesdays. Finding. Bowater, that it 'would be iaadequate to the purpose he had in view. he should take no further part in the prosaction of the bill. jar. rELLAI'I' should oppose the bill. It was not the act of the perish, bat of an individual; and there had been epe ti iien against it signed by 950 a the parishipnen Bermendpsy, rated altogether at so lees • sum than 62;000t. • year. Sir J. V. SHELLEY hoped that the house would not de part from its usual course of reading all private bills a w and time, unless there was some very strong and potent I objection against them. The object of the present bill was I to provide for the bolding of vestry meetings on secular sub jects In some other place than the church. That some such measure was necessary mad hardly be disputed. Only • short time ago • very excited vestry meeting was being held in Bermondsey Church, when • corpse was brought in to be interred. The meeting had to make way for at and to suspend their proceedings until the service had been read; after which they resumed their discussion with as much warmth as before. It might be true that 953 persons bed signed • petition against the bill, but the pepulazion of the parish was 50,000, and the object of the measure was t o procure for them • better representation in the vestry than that which they now possessed. Mr. FRENCH thought it would be very strange if the bill were proceeded with when both the hon. gentlemen by whom it was brought in bad expressed their wish to abandon it. Sir W. MOLESWORTH said the bill professed only to affect the pariabioneis of Bermondsey. They had disowned it, and indeed it appeared to emanate only from the solicitor who had brought it in. He should, therefore, move that it be read that day six months. Mr. WHALLEY thought the house could do no less than read the bills second time, and refer it to a *elect committee in the usual way. It the fact was, as had been stated, with respect to the non•coneurrence of the parish ioners, its promoters would never be at the trouble and expense of proceeding further with it. The galliry was then ordered to be cleared, but no divi sion took place, Mr. Oldest Rh., who had charge of the bill, having withdrawn his motion for the second reading. Shortly afterwards Sir J. V. SHIILLET asked whether the hon. member for Pontefract was in order in withdrawing the motion without leave of the house ? The SPEAKER said the only question had been whe ther t h e bon. member (Sir J. Shelley) himself would put the home to the trouble of dividing, and he had not done so. (Laughter.) Sir J. SHELLEY remarked that this incident ought to make the house very careful of what the y did ; for really he had certainly not heard a word of what had been going on. (A laugh.) The London and Finsbury Improvements and Railway Bill was read a second time. THE EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY EVENING, APRIL 27, i 843. PUBLIC BUSINESS. PETITIONS PRESENTED. Tat Bohoac.--By Mr. A. PELLATT, signed by Wm. Priteharl, Esq., High Bailiff of Southwark, on behalf of the electors of Southwark assembled that day by publics advertisement, praying the house to pass early into law the excellent budget of the Chancellor of the Exchequer; Mr. COWAN, from the tobacco skinners of the City of Edin bur4h in public meeting assembled, complaining of the in tenuous ofthe Chancellor of the Exchequer to admit foreign twist, aegrohead, and cavendish tobacco at a rate of duty which will supersede the home manufacture, praying the house not to passe law which will deprive them of their em ployment. ADVIRTIIIIMINT Dori.—By Mr.CAIRNS, from the pro prietors of the Banner of Ulster, praying for the total re peal of. Mr. HARDINGE, from the editor of the Down potrick Recorder, in f of. Soar DUTY.—By Lord R. GROSVENOR, from the British Sanitary Association, for repeal of. ATTOSNIZIe CawIT,ICAra DUTY.—By Mr. J. ALEX ANDER, from Carlow, against. Texas ON KNOWLIDOIL —By Mr. SCHOLEFIELD, from the letter-press printers of Birmingham, against the taxes on knowledge, and in favour of a modification of the intended law respecting supplements to newspapers. M•ur AND HOP DUSIES.—By Mr. BURROUGHES, from Thorpe and ascend other places in Norfolk, for re peal of. DUTY ON LICENSZL—By Mr. BASS, from dealers in tea, coffee, and tobacco, in Derby, against the proposed in- Crellae. BOARDII.—B7 Mr. DAVIES, from certain justices of Cardiganshire, praying that the bill establishing financial boards may not pass into a law. OPINING or ran CLTSTAL PALACI ON SUNDATI.— By Lord R. GROSVENOR, from inhabitants of Fulham; from operatives, St. John's district, Fulham ; from ministers and churchwardens, Fulham; and from working men of Park Chapel, Chelsea; Mr. COWAN, from the Presbyte rian church, River-terrace, Islington ; against. PUBLIC-DOUSES (SCOTLAND) OILL.—By Mr. DUNLOP, from the piston and deacons of the Old Scotch Indepen dent Church, Oswald-street, Glasgow, in favour of. NOTICES OF MOTIONS AND QUESTIONS. By Mr. HEYWOOD.—For leave to bring in a bill to simplify the registering of names for matriculation and graduation in arts at the universities. By Lord D. STUART.—On the 24th of May fora select committee to inquire into the cost of the maintenance and the general administration of the metropolitan polios. By Lord D. STUART.—That on Thursday he would ask the Home Secretary how it was that notwithstanding an or der foe the closing of St.Clenamit Danes' Churchyard,hai ap— peared in the Gasete, there b leen burials performed there on Sunday ? (Heats leas) ) Mr. OLIVEIRA M lbe a Wen eemealebte to in quire into the state end eseollellen of die lerldic r over the Thames in the zaatrepeti, to revert whether are &de -1 gambols liegosesail sod vastly inerming traffic ; whether it be &Webb to emetreet one or sem new bridges over the river ; if se, at what point or points ; whether it would be desirable to throw open to the public the present toll paying bridges, and if so upon what terms melt bridges end& be threeen open ; and generally to meet wen ea inessewee fee the letterman* of tie as regale the br e l and prohibiting the iatereowise be tween the two din of the river Thames in the inetreplEs. RETURNS ORDERED. On the motile of Kr. Hunz—Reuune relating to th. 0-ti-s. Oa the ands if Kr. Fazwix—Addreas for return of all bemellem, resteeiss, or vicarages which have b ea n united dace the 92nd day of May, 1851 , under the act 13 and 14 c. 98, s. 8, stating the names of the united benefices, with the names of incumbent or incumbents, the amount of the population, and the yearly salsa of each, mad the distance that the churches of each of the united benefices are from each other, with the county and diocese in which each is situated (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 613, of maim 1861.) On the motion of Mr. WHALIAIT—Address for copies of correspondence relating to the negotiation for the sale of the crown rights in the parish of Reabon. MONEY ORDERS AT THB HOUSE. Mr. FEE WEN begged to mak the Seseetary to the Treasury, if the Postmaster-Oenerel was prepared to male the Postedliee as the House of Commons a money order aim M tbo poems of granting money orders on the hawawry post-sdisse to the memben and oaken of the Mr. WILSON hailmamunicated with the authorities of Ms Pest•ssilne en tbs subject ; and if it should be the wish et Os how" erg boa made arrangements for the inuisedi- Me iamb( fats oast of the hon. member's suggestion. flu may question that remained, therefore, was ass for the his., to decide, namely, whether the increased convenience would justify them in 'sing to the expense which It would involve. EartiSEYMOIIII, inquired what the expense was likely to be. Mr. WILSON would inquire sad inform the house on another day, U *elms thought that an element worthy of comaideratiost. Ho (!ar. Wawa) thought it was. (Hear.) Mr. HUME hugs" eseretn7 for the Treasury would be provided with es asthma et what the expense would be, before the roped was ennled into sleet. _ _ THJISALLOT. Mr. H. BERKELEY begged to ask the bus. Inaba (Mr. B. Carter), wise 11.4 modes le the Oak *se viers came peeedur bees pima le awe beim resseled in say earaiteesey, lbe desalt= be wi enesitssumey sinnald be taken in future by the belle. whether M weal net postpone his motion until the meld question of the Wet had been disetused Mr. B. CARTER would do so. __THHARCTIC EXPEDITIONS. Mr. VERNON rose to pat • question relative to her Majesty's ship Plover. It appeared that that ship was in such a situation that she could only be communicated with six months in the year, and that she was in • leaky con dition. It had therefore been sesgened that a steam vessel should be sent out to her relied. sad Admiral Beaufort had expressed a very strong opinion Mat *at should be done. The Enterprise and Investigates. hal ail been heard of for two years. tinder these Co.eamoMmis he (Mr. Vernon) wished to ask the right hes. Wesel gambit he was pre pared to state the reams whisk kad Waged the late Board of Admiralty to soma oat the Bettleesake (a sailing vessel) to communicate with the Plover, in preference to a screw steamer, which appeared to the but authorities to be most likely to perform the service in au efficient manner ? Si, J. GRAHAM (who was very indistlatly heard) was understood to say that when the present board came into office they found the arrangements for sending out a sailing vessel instead of a steamer, already made. The order bon date the 16th of December, and the present board entirely concurred in its propriety. There were already three or four expeditions oontprising 600 seamen engird on this dangerous service ; and it would not be expedient to mend within the ice any fresh reinforcement. (Hear, hear.) He should be happy to lay the papers on the table. ATTORNEYS' CERTIFICATE BILL. Col. SIBTHORP, seeing the noble lord in his place, was anxious to ash hint on what day he would proceed with this bill ? Lord R. GROSVENOR would be prepared to state to morrow. (A laugh.) COMMISSIONS FOR CANTERBURY AND HULL. Captain BELLEW asked whether commissions of in quiry had issued foe Canterbury and Hull, in conformity with the joint addresses of both houses ; and if not, how soon would such commissions be issued ? Lord J. RUSSELL replied, that Use commissionen bad not beau appointed, but he would do so as soon es possible. ORDER OF BUSINESS. Lord J. RI!! SSELL moved that the standing orders re specting committees of ways and means be read. This having been done, Calmat SISTHORP expressed a hope that ample time would ba afforded for a full disenevion of the budget, and particularly of the legacy duty. Lord J. RUSSELL they awned that so much of the standing orders se rendered it neces.ary to give notice of committees of ways and means on the previous Friday be dispensed with during the present week. Agreed to. L trd J. RUSSELL said he bad promised the right bon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Disraeli) that he would on this day state at what time her Majesty's government would propose their measure with respect to the government of India. The house would not be surprised to hear that it was their deter mination to proceed with the propositions contained in the resolutions which had been prepared by his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and not to let those resolutions be interrupted by any other business which the government might bring forward. From what he (the noble lord) had observed, he trusted that the whole of the material parts of the budget would have been considered and decided upon by the house in the course of a month ; and therefore, in moving the adjournment of the house for the Whitsun holidays, notice would be given at what time between the 20th and 30th of May his right hon. friend the President of the Board of Control would be prepared to bring forward his propositions. Mr. DISRAELI, as there had been some doubt upon the matter, bogged to ask when the debate upon the income tax would be resumed. Lord J. RUSSELL answered that the adjourned discus 'ion would be taken on Thursday. THE VINEGAR DUTY. Mr. FAOAN asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in the event of foreign vinegar being admitted into this country duty free, it was the intention of govern ment to remove the excise restrictions on the manufacture of the article, and to allow a drawback oa the malt used by the manufacturer, so as to enable him to enter into free competition with the foreign maker ? The CIIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was not then in a position to give a positive answer, but lie would take care that the parties interested should be informed of his intention before his proposition was discussed. THE LEGACY DUTY. Mr. BRIGHT gave notice that on Thursday he should put a question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer before the adjourned debate with regard to his measure for the extension of the legacy duty to real property was taken ; and that was, whether all corporate property was to be in- I eluded in the measure or not? Many persons would be I willing to accept the extended legacy duty in lieu of that which they had expected; and they ought to know on what footing it would stand before they went into the qua tion of the income tax. (Hear, hear.) Lord A. VANE begged to ask the right hon. gentleman a question with regard to the legacy duty on property under settlements. The hon. member for West Surrey seemed to treat this as a question of elder sons; and he (Lord A. Vane) wished to know whether if an elder son inherited property charged with settlements for the benefit of his mother or her younger children, the legacy duty of the whole would be charged to him ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHECIVER said be could easily understand the anxiety of the noble lord on this point. (Great laughter.) He presumed that in the case which the noble lord had supposed, the elder son would be liable to pay legacy Linty only on the net value of the property to which he had succeeded; and that the persons who were entitled under settlements would be liable, as they were now, to pay duty according to the interest which they lad in the estate. (Hear, hear.) POLICE OF ENGLAND AND WALES. Mr. RICE rose to move for a select committee to consi der the expediency of adopting a more uniform system of police in England and Wales. At present the greatest diversity prevailed in different counties, according to the decision of the magistrates. He referred to the in troduction of the metropolitan police by Sir R. Peel, from which the greatest benefits had flowed. The recent prevalence of riots at elections proved the necessity of a better organisation of the police. The suppression of riots ought not to be left to the military, who could only act under orders ; while the poke could go among a mob and use persuasion with them. A French writer bore testimony to the excellence of the London police, and to the support which they derived from the too relation at large. In 1839 a commission was issued to con• eider the best means of establishing a constabulary force for England and Wales. The report of that commission contained some most valuable information, and recom mended that the force should be trained and placed under a uniform system, as a means of giving greater securitr to property, and freeing the country from mendicancy. The result was the bill of 1839 and 1840 establishing the county constabulary. It had been adopted in 29 counties, partially se in 6, and not at all in 22. There had been three subse quent acts, and a bill was now before the house for consoli dating their provisions. This bill provided for the payment of pariah constables, though the object of the original Con stabulary Act was to supersede them; and there was great objection to a mixed description of force. The time was come for the adoption of a general system, which ought to be formed on the responsibility of the government. He believed the inquiry he proposed would have the con sent of the government as it had of the late government ; and he trusted that a good measure would be the result. Mr. HUME seconded the motion. Lord LOVAINE spoke to the good effect of the system in Northumberland. One difficulty in the way of its ex tension was the variety of jurhdictions which existed in some counties. Mr. RICH hoped that with uniformity of practice there would be combined a certain independence of action in certain localities. There was one other point which he trusted the government would consider. The armed consta bulary of Ireland was the molt perfect body of police in the world ; and though he had no wish to see an armed pollee introduced generally in this country, he thought it essential that every policeman should be practised in the use of arms. He hoped that would not he lost sight of. Sir J. PAKINOTON thought the subject one rather for the execative government than for a committee. Nothing maid be more thoroughly unsatisfactory than the state of the police of England at this moment. Viscount PALMERSTON admitted that this was 'a sub ject on which the government might fairly originate a mea sure, but he thought that, with the view of collecting in formation, and of showing the advantages which had arisen in some places from the establishment of a police force, and the inconveniences which had arisen (in others from the want of one, the committee moved for by his hon;friend would be a very useful preliminary to legislation on the subject. (Hear, hear.) Captain SCOSELL hoped the inquiry would be a real one and not a foregone conclusion. He admitted that all the towns should have a police, but not that every hill and valley In the country required policemen. Even a force of ens policeman to every thousand of the population would maks twenty or thirty thousand men in all, and throw immense expense on the country. He hoped that education would precede police. Lord D. STUART was very glad that the Home Secre tary had assented to this motion, believing that a great deal of useful information would be elicited by the inquiry, and that it would tend to the establishrient of a police force in all the counties which were now without that ad vantage ; but he would deprecate such a step if he thought it was the intention of the government to establish a gene ral police for the whole country, emanating from the me tropolis and placed immediately under the Home Office. Mr. MACKIE moved that the inquiry should be extended to Scotland. Mr. HASTIE seconded the amendment. trouble the house with some additional observations. The noble lord the mensber for Loudon, when recently int•odue- • ing the subject of education, laid dos n certain principles ' on the subject, in which he (Mr. Hamilton) entirely con curred. The noble lord stated in the first place that the ! odvcstion of the workiug classes in this country was con- • dusted by the great religious bodies assisted by the state, dad expressed his opinion that they acted rightly in insist log on religious training in the schools. In conformity with the principle thus propounded by the noble lord, they I Owl that in this country the education of the work keg classes was conducted through the instrumentality of the National Society, the British and Foreign, and the Congregational Sotieties. The Roman catholic, hail sepa rate schools. In all except the last named the reading of I the holy scriptures in school was an indispensable condi tion, and even in the Jews' schools the reading of the Old Testament was required. Now, it was remarkable that In Ireland every condition that was considered indispensable I is this country formed an inseparable bar to the receipt of any aid from the state, and the very course that the noble lord insisted upon as indispensable to religious training was that course which of all others was considered inapplicable in Ireland. At all event., if the Irish a yatem were extended to this country, this much could not be disputed, that no clergyman of the church of England could insist on the use of Hie holy scriptures in school during the time for the general instruction of the children. But the system was likely to be carried to a greater extent because steps were being taken by which the parent of any child might insist on the exclusion of any book containing matter of which he did not approve. Instead of referring to the rules of the board he would give the house an illustration of the work ing of the system in Ireland. The incumbent of it parish in Limerick, a warm advocate of the system, went to a school in which there were GO children, protestant and catholic and where portions of the holy scriptures w ere read daily. He applied to the commissioners for aid for this school, but was informed that the reading of the scriptures was incompatible with the rules. This was confirmed on appeal by Lord Clarendon. The it by which he ... argument , . hoped i : to sustain this motion was that th e c l erg y conscientious objections to the system, and many considered adherence to it 83 inconsistent with their ordination vows. In the next place, it was urged that the children of the Church of England could not be educated in the schools. If dissenters sod Roman catholic, were allowed separate schools, it appeared hard to the clergymen of the church of England that the church chil dren should not be placed in an equally favourable posi tion. It was farther urged that the Irish system could not be fairly called an united system, and here he would remark, that the Roman catholic, and dissenters were as much opposed to indifferentism as the Church of England. The object of the promoters of the na tional system of education in Ireland was to com bine the instruction of children of different reli gious denominations in the same schools, and thus to pro mote good feeling and harmony in the country. But that object had not been attained, nor, under the system in its present form, which was one of compromise, was it attain able, that being rendered impossible by the deep conscien tious religious feelings of both protestants and Roman catholic, in regard to the religious instruction of their children. That being so, it became them to look the diffi culty in the face and consider whether they should not abandon the attempt to maintain a combined system, snd substitute one that would meet the conscientious objections of all parties. it was a mistake to suppose that the estab lishment of a separate system would produce ill-feeling be tween the people of different religious denominations; on the contrary, he believed that the best way to promote good feeling was to respect the religious objections of all. Of this they might be certain, that nothing had ever been gained, and nothing would ever be gained, by unworthy concessions. (Hear, hear.) He contended that the national system of education in Ireland was not a scriptural system, even is regard to the scriptural extracts which were read in the schools, though it was understood to be so—and this he sub mitted was another reason for inquiry. Again, • majority of the schools in Ireland were Roman catholic schools, and the doctrinal tenets of the Roman catholic church were avowedly taught in those schools. He might say, then, that the system was one that discouraged protestantism and en couraged Roman catholicism. He was not now expressing any opinion whether it was right that the majority of the schools should be Roman catholic, but what he said was that if such was the fact it should be distinctly understood, and that money should not continue to be voted year by year seder the idea that it was for the support of neutral schools. It was evident from Mr. Stanley's letter in 18977 that the original intention was that the scripture extract should be read in the schools when the Bible was not used but the reports showed that in many of the schools in eluding some of the model schools, these extracts weseno read during the hours of religious instruction, and in this respect also there was such a departure from the original system as to justify inquiry. Again with regard to the local funds—Mr. Secretary Stanley in his letter stated that local funds were indispensable to the granting of public aid. That he regarded as • wise decision, for he was con vinced that no system of education could prosper without local co-operation ; but the recent reports of the inspectors Mated that in three out of nine districts the local teachers did not re rive from local fees 11. a year, and by subsequent accounts it would appear that their rendition was becoming worse—eighty-five of the teachers, astioedkl . to - Mr. *al the inspector, hat • naving less than 1041. • day each. This proved that there was not that local aid which it was understood was indispensable before them could be participation is the government grant. Them there appeared to be no uniformity of rule in regard to religi ous instruction. The model school in Dublin ap peared to be is no way uniform with the local schools or with the model schools in the country. He had no wish to laapute any blame to the commissioners in respect to the statements in their reports; but if any hon. gentleman would look into the appendices he would see that there woo ao sufficient account given of the operations of the national system, and this absence of what be held to Se neces sary information in the official documents was another reason for inquiry. He had now endeavoured to show what the system was, and the ground of his motion. He had shown that there was the issue of fact to be determined—first, whether the system was a slatted system ; secondly, whether it was • scriptural ; and, thirdly, whether it was a neutral system ? Te t rad shown that the schools were, in the majority of in stances, Roman catholic—that the model schools were not models of the general schools—and that the reports of the cuomissioners were not satisfactory; and having done so, he contended that he had advanced ample grounds for his motion. He proposed this inquiry in no hostile spirit. That house was the guardian of the public pane, and when they saw so large a sum as 2,000,0001. expended upon this system, it behoved them to inquire how far that system had succeeded, and whe ther it had really tended to promote concord, good feeling, and loyalty amongst the Irish people. (Hear, hear.) He trusted that an arrangement would result from this inquiry that would be satisfactory to all parties. All parties in Ireland were anxious to have the question settled, and none were desirous of exacting unreasonable terms. What they desired was that the benefits of the system should be extended and the advantages of education more generally disseminated. That, however, could only be domsl7 respecting the religious scruples of the people. He Weld call attention to one fact before sitting down which had been recently published. It had been known that for some time Sir Charles Buxton bad entertained , The motion, as amended, was then agreed to. strong bias in favour of the naked system, but conceived COMMUNICATION WITH IRELAND. that its advantages were impeded by the protestant Mr. H. HERBERT moved for a select committee to clergy. Having visited Ireland, and eenained the operation examine and report upon the present state of the communi- of the system, he had come to the conclusion that the cation between England and Ireland, as regards the saps- clergy were right, and that some alteration of the system ditious conveyance of the mails. the transport of troops, was necessary in order to meet their objections. A noble mei the convenience afforded to the public, and to the Irish lord holding a high office in the government had stated in saimmatatives in particular in their attendance on this another place, in reference to the objections of the pretes beige, and to report what improvements modern science can tent clergy, that he could scarcely repress the indignation whimemt to establish • more speedy and commodious own- he felt at seeing the only effort made for many years to im- Militon between the two countries. He said, it having prove the permanent condition of the Irish people thwarted. i mated to him that there would be no objection on He (Mr. Hamilton) alluded to the observations made by AO /Wet of the government to the appointment of a coin- the Earl of Aberdeen. Possibly the noble lord wu not now MUM' be would not trouble the house with an lengthened in a condition to pay that acknowledgment which he elliffieks. He wished only to state his prises jesis ease for otherwise would do to the motives of those who frentsliy, which was that while communications with other advanced conscientious objections, and might be parte of the world had been repeatedly accelerated those glad to see extended to matters of religion with Ireland had actually deteriorated within the last few that kind of indifference which characterised radical con years. In 1860 an inquisy was instituted into the parties- servatism or conservative radicalism. (Oh, oh.) That noble con years. of the contracts between the City of Dublin Steam- lord would not, however, find the people of Ireland ready Packet Company and the government of that day. The re- to adopt his views. He (Mr. Hamilton) was speaking now cartnieof the committee exonerated the government from any for the Roman catholic. as well as for the protestants of in the matter, and it concluded with an expression of Ireland ; both of wkom were as deeply affected by religious regret, in which he meat heartily concurred, that the question considerations as any people in the world, and would not should ever have been regarded as a departmental one. be induced to forego them by the noble earl's observations. When the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) introduced his bill The bon. member then concluded by submitting his motion. for the abolition of the Lord Lieutenancy of Ireland, one Mr. WIORAM, in wending the resolution, said he be of the main argument. on which he relied was the establish- lieved if they were to interfere with that which was now seat of improved communications between the two coon- an established system, they would provoke great hostility tries. He thought, therefore, this question coula not be to the movement in which they were engaged, and injure viewed by the government as one which had reference those schools which were undoubtedly producing great solely to the transmission of the mails. With regard to the good in the country. The object was not hostile to the conveyance of troops between the two countries, it had evi- national society, but to extend it, so that others, especially dently a most intimate connexion with the question of the church schools might be partakers of its advantages. defence. The vessels at present employed were utterly in- Sir J. YOUNG expressed his regret that he was unable adequate to the purpose intended. He trusted that, under to concur in the motion. The speech of the hon. member the circumstances, there would be no objection to the ap- had been characterised by great moderation, except, per pointment of a select committee. haps, his observations with regard to Lord Aberdeen. He After a short discussion the motion was agreed to. could enure him that he (Sir J. Young) approached the NATIONAL SYSTEM OF EDUCATION (IRELAND). question in no spirit of indifferentism. He was certain, Mr. HAMILTON rose, pursuant to notice, to move for a too, that Lord Aberdeen was actuated by no such feeling, select committee to inquire into the working of the national and that there was. no man in the empire who was more system of education in Ireland, with the view of ascertain- ready on all occasions to pay respect to the conscientious log how far the instructions contained in Mr. Secretary convictions of others. (Cheers.) The hon. member had Stanley's letter of 1830 have been followed or departed made several valuable admissions. He had admitted that from by the commissioners, or in the practical operation of the state system of secular education had raised the general the system t . and whether and to what extent a united or standrad and was a good one, whereas in a paper widely combined education has been attained under the national eireViated and endorsed by very high authority the direct rem ; and also to inquire whether, by any farther eaten- reveue had been stated. The hon. member had also ad or modification of the rules framed by the commis- 'netted that the national system was one of the institutions stoners or otherwise ,the conscientious objections which many of the country which ought not to be destroyed. (Hear, of the people of Ireland entertain to the system as at present tear.) The hon. gentleman had referred to a letter from carried into operation might be reasonably obviated, so as to Mr. Stanley (Lord Derby) ; but there was nothing in the enable them to partake of the public grant and render the original instructions which made the scripture extract' a system more comprehensive and national. The boa. mem . part of the secular instruction. In fact the scripture ex bee said be would state as briefly as possible the rema d e tracts were not included in the list of books ; and to this that induced him to move for a 'elect committee to inqr,irn day they were only recommended for use as an introduction into the working of the national system of en nen- to the study of the Holy Scriptures. It was quite true that tion. He had felt it his duty to press the in some cases local contributions had been dispersed with ; matter r,n the last parliament, but in a soriewhat but while there had been no general relaxation of the rule, different. shape, having then moved for an address it was evident that there were cases where it would have to the crown, setting forth that large numbers of her Ma- been impossible to insist upon it, because some of the din. jesty'a subjects entertained conscientious objection! to the trice which required education most were quite unable to aational system of education, and praying that such =odd): contribute anything. Looking at the ordeal through cations might be made as would remove theiv coascientieus which Ireland bad lately paned, this was warmly objections, or, at least, that some means of Scriptural ado. a topic that could be urged with much force cation might be granted. To that motion 200 members had against the national system. (Hear, hear.) With given their support. It bad been his intention to confine respect to the accounts, if the hon. gentleman would far bimself to • statement of the grounds upon whit)* he made nigh him with any particular cases, there should be the his motion, but an amendment—which, by the way, had moat accurate and searching inquiry made into them. The mysteriously disappeared from the paper—b.ad been no- most important part of the subject was the last ; and but tired by the hon. member for Oldham, exteo ding the system for that the house would have beard very little about the England, which made it neceseary that he Aesid rut. He (Sir J. Youg) believed that a large now i her of the laity and three fourths of the clergy of the Irish church w. re opposed to the national system. He did not shrink from avowing his be. ha in the great respectability of these parties, and in ' their greet claim urn the consideration of parliament. From the Venerable Primate down to the meanest of those i who att. nded meetings at the Rotunda or Exeter-hall, he ' believed them to be conscientious and sincere. lie believed there was uo difference between hicuselfand them ea to the end they had ia view, but simply as to the means. (Roar, bear.) They wished to draw upon the funds of the state for , means to support schools in which they should be enabled to I make the children read the authorised version of the &rip , tures ; and they argued that the attend ince at such s c h oo l s would be voluntary. On that word turned much of the t question. They must never forget that two-thirds of the people belonged t i the Romiah church—a church which de pended upon authority and required implicit submission to I its teaching. Now that church discountenanced the unre stricted use of the Scriptures, especially by young lessons; and they also objected to the authorised version. What, tberef re, was asked of the state was that it should afford the means out of the public money to establish schools in which the Irish people should be compelled against their conscientious convictions is read the Scriptures. (Bear.) In many parts of Ireland there would only be one school, and so great was the desire of the poor Irish peasants to give their children a good education, that they would use those schools even at what they felt to be a risk to their faith and morals. (Hear, hear.) They would also be liable to the fear of offending their employers, or of appearing ungrate ful to those opulent protestant gentlemen who often afferded them such substantial relief, and who might have • wish to spread a knowledge of the Bible. N iw, if they frightened or bribed the poor into sending their children to these schools reluctantly and against their convictions, they would be violating their consciences, and interfering with the principles of toleration. ()fear, hear ) The system had been established 21 years, in order to extend to rho poor of Ireland a system of edu cation from which should be banished even the suspicion of proselytism. At this moment there were 520,000 chil dren attending these schools ; and, notwithstanding the millions which had received their education in them, there had never been a single case of proselytism. (Cheers.) Though the population had decreased pro biddy 1,600,000, the number in the schools had increased 70,000—a proof of the increasing anxiety of the people to give education tr their children. Ile agreed in the import ance of religious instruction being given in the schools. This was the case ; and the books provided, though not forced upon any school, but voluntarily adopted by them, formed a united course of education in Ire land—a species of national literature—breathing the true spirit of piety. (Hear, hear.) They formed a bond o f union amongst the pupils of all religions; and of the thou sands of teachers that had been trained in those schools, there had been no instance of a religious dispute occurring among them. He had long watched the system, and was convinced that it was the only means of establishing a really united education. The national system was in reality • united education ; it was founded on the best precepts of Christianity ; and any attempt to subvert it was an attempt to destroy one of the greatest goods that Providence had ever allowed human wisdom to establish. (Cheers.) Mr. NAPIER denied that the object of the motion was to subvert the national system. The mover had disclaimed the object in the most positive terms; his object was, as the motion declared, to inquire into the working of the system. If the system were such as was described by the right honourable baro ne t , the result of an inquiry would bo an advantage. Why should the protestants of Ireland be debarred from a share of the rational grant, such as was enjoyed by the protes tant' of this country ? This was denied to protestants in any part of Ireland, if they put forward that which they believed to be a principle of the reformation—the unre stricted reading of the scriptures. In the trust deeds of the Wesleyan schools in this country and other sects, the reading of the scriptures was made imperative ; and they received the national grant. Why, then, should a member of the established church of Ireland be debarred from put ting forward his claim to the reading of the scriptures He challenged inquiry, and contended that when they were offering education to the whole people, they had no right to exclude any portion simply beca u se hoe could not agree with them in some conscientious conviction. He hoped that the church would rather perish, and sacrifice any gift they might offer it and its temporalities altogether, than that it should for one moment tamper with that which was the first basis of the reformation and the foundation of all their hopes. Viscount MONCK deprecated the angry tone of the dis cussion. He believed they would do a serious injury to the cause of education in Ireland, if they gave the people of that country any reason to believe that their con duct in reference to the question depended on which side of the Speaker's chair they sat. He did not believe that his right honourable friend who had just sat down wished to destroy education, but two speeches more damnatory to that system than that speech and that of his hon. friend he had never had the good or the ill fortune to hear. Believing that the system was working well, and that no alteration was either necessary or expedient, he should vote against the motion. Mr. LUCAS said that in as far as he could understand the noble lord and the right hon. baronet who had spoken on the opposite aide, they had two opinions on education— an English opinion and an Irish opinion. He (Mr. Lucas) thought the English opinion sound, and the Irish opinion unsound. As to what was called the national system of education in Ireland, he believed that it existed only because it was one thing in :name and another in practice. (Hear, hear). The system, whatever it might be in name, was in substance a separate system, and it existed only because it was a separate sys tem. (Hear.) If by any calamity it could become a united system, he believed it would be the greatest calamity that could possibly hefal Ireland. He agreed in most that had fallen from gentlemen on that (the opposition) side of the house, but he had great difficulty in agreeing to their mo tion, because he could not satisfy himself that the objects they had really in view were in accordance with its terms. The motion itself was perfectly reasonaSle, and had his hearty assent, but he dissented from the purpose which had been avowed during a former debate on this subject. He wished to know clearly how the matter stood, because he would not deny to others what he de manded for himself, the right of educating their children in their own religious tenets, while at the same time he re gretted that at present the schools in which Roman catholic' were educated were established under false pretences. It would be far more satisfactory to him if there were separate schools forßoman catholic', presbyterians, and for the church of England, and he thought that some system of that kind was the only ones that parliament ought to sanction. He would now tell the house why he had a difficulty in voting on this motion. In the former debate it was stated that the fundamental principle of the system then advocated was that the children should be daily instructed in the Holy Scriptures. Ho wished to know if that was what they wanted now, because, if it was, he was prepared to give them the most bitter and strenuous opposition. The hon. gentleman proceeded to refer to the prominent course which Lord Clancarty had taken on this question. That nobleman was a shining light on the question in another place; and it was noticeable that he took the chair at most of the meetings of the Irish Church Education ' Society, and of the Church Mission. There were six Church Education Society's schools on his estate; and it was im• portaat to understand what was the object which such friends of education," as his lordship was, had in the proceedings which they took, and in the support which they gave, to such motions as the pretent. He (Mr. Lucas) held in h is hand • document, signed " Clancarty," dated Jan. 8, 1853, so that it referred to present facts and inten tions; and this would show distinctly the views of the nobleman whom hon. gentlemen on that (the opposition) side of the House of Commons accepted as their representa tive. The document was a letter expressing approval of his lordship's agent's conduct in regard to the schools in connexion with the Church Education Society; and in this letter, after conveying an opinion that the children of the occupiers of the land ought to be raised from their state of ignorance, his lordship went on to ob serve that " favours" would be shown to those tenants who refused to be dictated to by the priests, and who allowed their children to attend the schools provided on the estate —those being the Church Education Society's schools, as distinguished from the national schools. What was this but the offer of a remission of rent to the tenants who would consent to the risk of their children's souls being destroyed. In the same letter his lordship observed that he had been informed that the priest wanted more sand and stone for • new school (national), but that he (Lord Clancarty) would only consent to giving the materials on condition that the priest would let the children have free access to the Holy Scriptures—that is would adopt, not the national system, but his lordship's system. The hon. gentleman went on to quote from another document, dated 1844, and signed by Lord Clancarty, in which his lordship communicated with his agent to much the same effect, and referred to the " hanging gale of rent" as an inducement to the tenants to adopt the schools of the Church Education Society's ;sys tem. The hon. gentleman further quoted from the letter of a tenant to Lord Clancarty's agent, in which he mentioned that though he displeased his priest, he always sent the children to his lordship's schools " when the weather permitted." These documents (continued the hon. gentleman) would sufficiently show the animus with which his lordship entered on the cease of education in Ireland. If the assertions were not facts, let them be con tradicted; if explanation was wanted, let hie lordship ex plain. Lord Clancarty represented the hon. gentlemea who would vote for this motion, and the motion was to be te ed in the light which such facts threw upon it. If he Mr. Lucas) could thick that the putties was made in good h he should regret the opposition which had been rait d offered to it by the right hon. gentleman (Sir J. Young). He felt no confidence whatever in the management of the National Board as regarded the future. The national System was a system which was entirely dependent on the hands in which it might be momentarily placed. It was a system not at all dependent on the principle on which it was professedly based; but on ,the accidental siministra tionjof changing parties. A change of men implied, in that board, a change of system; and he confessed he felt no confidence whatever in the arrangement. There were at' present rumours that the protestant Archbishop of I Diiblin (Dr. Whately) had threatened to resign his seat at the board unless his good will and pleasure were uncon ditionally done ; and that the late Lord Chancellor (Sir F. I Blackburn) had joined in the threat unless the in troduction of certain books, Dr. Whately's books, into certain schools, were made compulsory. It was supposed that if the resolutions pressed by these distinguished ,;persons were not carried the board would be broken up, so far as the retirement of the ;• archbishop could break it up ; and this circumstance indi ' sated the uncertainty of the whole system—tbc fact being, that if the books in question were introduced, the support of the Roman catholic' would, as a necessary consequence, be withdrawn from the board. (Rear, hear.) The viatica