The Express. — London, England, 1853-06-10 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS.—TIMRSDAT, JOSE 9. The Loan CgaNcru.on...ook h.. sett at 6 o'clock. ARRESTMENT OF WAGES IN SCOTLAND. Lord If Ito OIdAM brought in • but to repeal a provlsioll in an act passed in 1837, by which the wages of tirtitimrs and others might be stopped for the payment of debut of whatever a aaaaa , when contracted in the beer or spirit shop, or elsewhere. It was a great evil, and induced persona to Sire credit too readily to poor men for articles they did not want. The. LORD CHANCELLOR thought the armament 1f wage. m..it ohj.ction•ible, and approved of the bill ; but theught it d. suable that some time should elapse before it was read a second time. Lord PANSIURE believed that the present system led to • great consumption of .:.irit. in large towns such as Wise pow. The keepers of public houses ware willing to trust workmen in the receipt of good wages without reference to their circumstances or families ; and at the end of the week ,ofttn tu.ik the whole of their earnings. o The bill was then read a first time. COUNTY COURTS. Lord BROUGHAM moved far returns of the number of ease. tried iii county courts, the awns recovered, and the fees paid, during the last 6 years. Ordered. BURIAL GROUNDS BILL. This bill was reported with amendments. HACKNEY CARRIAGES (METROPOLIS) BILL. Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY, in moving the second reading of this bill, pointed out the causes of complaint with reference to the hackney carriages of the metropolis, and explained the remedies proposed to be applied by the bill, the nature of which are already known to the public, haying been fully detailed in the Iluuse at Commons. Earl ALDEORAVE signified his intention to move same amendments in CUOMittee. The bill was then read • second time. INCOME TAX BILL. On the motion of the Dike of NeViCASILI this bill was read a tire: time. CONSOLIDATED FUND BILL. This bill was read a second time. DRUMMOND'S (DUKE OF MELTORT'S) RESTI TUTION BILL. This bill went through c inimittee, and was reported. Their lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OP COMMONS.—T9CRSDA7, Juxe 9. The &mums tub the chair shortly before four o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. THIRD R[ADlSUS.—Rucheiter Bridge; South Eastern Railway (Canterbury and Whitetable, Bse.); South Eastern Railway (North Kent Railway to the Thames, &e.); South Easters Railway (Btrood to Maidstnne) ; Witham Drain age Second District; East Loudon Waterworks; WitoWs dun and Croydon Railway ; Bids. CLARE ELECTION. Mr. MILES brought up the report of the committee ap pointed to try the petition against the return of the sitting members for the county Clare, which stated that Sir John Forster Fitzgerald and Cornelius O'Brien, Esq., were not duly elected to serve as knights of the shire for the county of ('laze, and that the hist election was void; the committee hail further agreed to • resolution that a system of intimi dation was organised at the last election, which rushee, in a riot at Si.. mile-bridge, deterring voters from the exercise:of the franchise; that a mob, professing to he the supporters of the peutionen created a riot at Kilns's. but it was not proved that any elector was thereby prevented from exercising his franchise ; that at the riot at Six-mile-bridge the Rev. J. Burke, a Roman catholic priest, took part in the riot, and excited the people ; and that the ltev. Michael Chine ano ther Roman catholic priest, also excited the people, but It did not appear that generally any undue interference had been used by the Roman catholic priests ; that Sir John Fitx4ereld and Mr. O'Brien did not encourage, and were in no way cognisaut of the riotous proceedings which took place. SLIGO ELECTION. Mr. F. FRENCH gave notice that he should to-morrow move that the evidence taken before the Sligo election com mittee be printed. DEFICIENCY OF SILVER COIN. Mr. OLIVEIRA. begged to ask the Secretary to the Treasure what means are being taken to supply the deficii OW, of the silver currency, comehtined of by the bankers. Mr. WILSON said the great &mend for gold coin had hitherto r eeeeeee it impossible for the Mint to coin silver, but u some mitigation of the deficiency, a large quantity of half sovereigns had been issued. The demand for gold coin had somewhat abated, and in the last fortnight arrange. ments had been made for coining a quantity of silver, and the bank had in its possession about 100,0001. in silver coin. Mr. I'ELLATT asked whether any steps had been taken to remove Item circulation light gold coins. Mr. WILSON was not aware that there were any parti cular complaints of the prevalence of light coin ; and he thought the public ought to know that the representations which had been made in that house as to the prevalence of light coin had no foundation. Ile was told by the Bank that there was no more light coin in circulation than usual, and that whatever light coin came into the Dank was not re issued. TUE CAMP AT CHODHAM.—THE POLICE. Mr. DRUMMOND begged to put • question to the Home Secretary. Some alarm was felt in his county with regard to the number of persons who would be attracted to the camp at Chobham, and be wished to know whether any steps had been taken to defend people from outrage and prevent breaking of the peace by increasing the number of police. (" Hear." and laughter.) Lord PALMERSTON said it was very flattering and honourable to the constitutional feeling of the county that an application had been made for twenty additional coasts, bles to keep 9,000 troops in order. (" Hear," and a laugh.) With regard to move policemen being provided, it was more a vitalism for the Chancellor of the Exchequer than ter him ; but as far se he was concerned he would take steps kg the preservation of the peace. DURHAM ELECTION. Mr. BRAIISTON appeared at the bar of the house, and reported that the committee upon the Durham election had resolved :—" That Lord Adolphus Vane was not duly elected to serve for the city of Durham at the last electl^n, and that his last election (or the said city was void." The committee had also come to a resolution, " that Lord A. Vine, by his agents, was guilty of bribery at the last elute)* ; that J. A. Atkinson was bribed with a sum of If,. bat it was not proud to the satisfaction of the com &Are that the bribe was given with the knowledge of the sitting member." NEWSPAPER STAMPS. Mr. M. GIBSON wished to remind the Secretary to the Treasury that certain correurnidence between different persona sag the Micas of the Wand lemma Department relative to the stamps upon newspapers which had been ordered to be rodneed by the house had not yet made its appearance. Now that the government were about to le gislate upon the !subject, it was desirable that the correspon dence should be in the hands of has. members. Mr. WILSON would make inquiries and give directions its the proper quarter. IiOVERNMENE OP INDIA DILL—ADJOURNED DEBATE. Upts tie order of the day for remain lie stained do llies es this bill, Mr. SLACKETT said that it had bees Mid that the bee. wore sets in had sited est disbuds of the in itialise Is be spies the pieme enemies egaiset the'llet Isis . Its issM iseelbes him that pis bleteilt,amel Is lie bee piss ogles ime. ma et is ishistades midst the bowls puma ia refer. Ines lie We saint es wish ft was sow sliest Is legislate. The wile lord the iambi for Lowden bad upon a former saieles Maid est if legbiedsa wen upon this melee great seriatim .at aim BM Bla:kett) meld set woe hew the mini ei Seemlimemee bill for two ee three yeses would lead to way mess spits ton than the present maims, wish 'sight he altered by parliament in the ray asst essies. After making some complaints in Illialiedign with the revenue, Mr. Blacken said that his oasis objection to this bill was that by it the direction of our Indian em pire was vested in the hands of a private corporation, which had no more necessary conneetioa with the affairs of India than hid the Great Western Rail way Company. It was alleged at the time of passing the last charter act that the dividends were to be made a first charge on the territorial revenues of India, and that this would give to the directors en interest in the good government of that country. Ile thought this was scarcely worth notice. They knew there was a guarantee fund which, by this time, amounted to four or five millions to fell back upon, and they also knew that in 1874 parlia !sent was bound to redeem the stock at the rate of 200 per cent. Therefore this did not form any ground for the Court of Directors having an interest in India beyond that which philanthropic individuals must have in the welfare of their fellow creatures. The right hon. baronet said the government of ladle was an anomaly. He (Mr. Blacken) did not think our relations with our Indian empire were so unprecedented a, to be removed from the ordinary rules of political experience. I. ordinary cases the declaration of anomaly was only a confession of cowardice and incompe tence. The example of Rome, of Lacedemon, of Spain, of Portugal, showed that other nations bad not quailed be fore the responsibility which seemed now to frighten ee l Poe his part be confessed that if there was an anomaly, it I was not in India but in ourselves, in our determination to govern 160 millions of our fellow subjects by a handful of merchants, to administer a great empire by the machinery of a joint stock company. But t..h e greatest anomaly of all was that the absolute government of all these millions wee Committed to a gentleman who could talk for five hours on •therne calculated, above all others, to swell the heart and to tacit.. the Imagination, who could tell them, in spite of all the evidence, that things were going on as well as they could possibly wish. lie could not help thinking that at bottom the right hon. baronet's olinion was the same as his own, for though be praised the Court of Directors, that body would no doubt have preferred a little solid pudding to all that praise. He told them that the present vernment of the Court of Directors worked well, and yet proposed to introduce into it six go v e rnmen t nom i nees; professed his high opinion of the directors, and yet he invited half of them to suppress and eliminate themselves, 11 seemed to him that the right hon. hart. was " willing to wound, sad yet afraid to Mike," and he could not conceive e measure more ingeniously calculated than this was to under seise the foundations of the present mode of government. After alluding to complaints connected with the adminis tration of justice, which he did not think had been answered by Sir J. W. Hogg, he (Mr. !Hackett) putinelsrly wished to esprit upon the house the mode in which the company had dealt with their patronsge, because that happessed tae be the only thing ever , which they had been uilowsel to exercise an absolute and unlimited discretion ; end experience had shown that they had exercised it in the way best calculated to promote the interests of their own families aed con unions, and not in the manner best calculated to econo- ! raise the resources of this country, or to strengthen and improve the social condition of the natives of lodic (Loud cheers.) Surely, then, it would not be enough merely to withdraw from them some portion of the p.ttronagc which they had shown themseln a to have so grossly misapplied. Surely it was intolerable to think that the administration of Indian affairs should be left in the hands of men who had shown themselves incapable of distributing • few writenhips without allowing themselves to be swayed by such melancholy consilerations. (Cheers.) Ile should oppose the bill because it appeared to combine in • wonder ful manner the opposite evils both of precipitancy and delay ; because it proposed to retain the system of doable government, which, while it seemed to offer a check, only neutralised responsibility ; and because, above all, It left a share of the management of In dian affairs in the hands of • company which he was convinced would retard the progress of the Indian race, instead of twisting in its elevation into a com munity of which England mil Englishmen could have any reason to be proud. (Loud cheers.) Mr. T. BARING could not pretend to approach this subjeet as one calculated, in the words of the hon. gentle man who had just sat down, "to swell the soul and to fire the imagination ;" but having had the honour to occupy the situation of chairman to the committee on Indian affairs, he would admit that the last petition they had received was in favour of delay. At the sametime he did not think that that delay was rendered at all necessary.because that committee had not reported. On the contrary, if delay there must be, it mug' be justified on far different grounds. (Hear, hear.) For his own part, he wished to see the bill introduced, for although he had doubts as to the policy of some of its pro visions, thou doubts could be far better discussed at another stage. (Ilear,heer.) At all events the notion that because the committee was atilt sitting parliament ought to postpone its decision did not seem to him to be justified by the cir cumstances of the case. He certainly did think it would have been desirable that that committee should have been appointed at an earlier period—that it should in fact have been appointed a year earlier—(cheers)— but still as the bill was one that applied only to a limited number of 1 the subjects which had engaged their attention, there was no reason why they should not at once legislate to that extent, and why the committee should not continue to pursue their inquiries into matters connected with the ad ministrative duties in India. (Hear, hear.) It did there fore appear to him that delay was quite unnecessary. Nor did he base his opinion upon any letter of Lord Dalhou sie's. On the contrary, it appeared to him perfectly self evident that if they weakened the power of the government in India by delaying the settlement of this question—if they called upon persons both in Eng land and India to imitate the question for two or three years, 'hey would be inflicting an injury which no good govern ment, for years to come, could retrieve. The hon. gentleman (ldr. Bleckett) had denied that our Indian empire was an anomaly, and he had referred to the vast possessions of Spain and Portugal in South America. Ile (Mr. Baring) accepted the illustration. (Cheers.) He granted that other nations—that Spain and Portugal—had held large territo rial possessions, but where were the native populations over which those states had once held the sway ? We, at least, had never attempted to exterminate or expatriate the native population of India. (Loud cheers.) It was true that the constitution of India might not be such as • law giver would have devised, nor such es would have fallen from the pen of a Bentham; but it had at all events mein taioed uninterrupted the connexion between England and India; and had shielded the inhabitants against all the horrors of internal dissension and of intestine war. (Cheers ) For his own part, he did not wish to see the government of India in the hands of the Crown unccntrolled by the intervention of some independent and elected body. (Loud cheers.) If they should not maintain some inde pendent check upon:the acts of the crawn,they would see the affairs of India made the sport of party purposes, and the of j:ct of party triumphs; and its good government would he treated as a mere secondary object. (Mr. Hume : " Hear, hear.") Ile (Mr. T. Baring) should be glad to promote every system of education, and everything that could be devised to advance the social improvement of the people of India; but looking as far as his ken would reach into the vista of futurity, he could ace no prospect of the native population ever exercising the power of self go vernment. (Hear, hear.) The people of India were so divided by difference of nation, cute, and religion—eo burned with mutual jealousy and hate, that their union was impossible, and unless supported by our intervention they would fall an easy prey to foreign aggression. (Hear, hear.) But when hon. gentlemen talked of placing India under the immediate and uncontrolled power of the Crown, let them look at what had taken place in our other colonies— in Jamaica, in Ceylon, in the West Indies, at the Cape of God Hope, and in Australia? Was there any one that would say that the interests of those colonies bad not over and over again been bandied about from side to side, and had been kept like a shuttlecock up its the air, until they had answered some party Reno-me ? (Cheers.) He (Mr. Baring) wished that our empire should long remain undio membered, because he was one who thought that its vast extent had been conducive, not to out welfare, alone, but to the extension of civilisation and the hap piness of the world. (Hear, hear.) Ho (Mr. Baring) firmly believed that Indian reforms could be far better effected by means of the present machinery than by revolutionising the whole country. (Hear, hear.) He agreed with the hon. member (Mr. Bright) that this was no question between Manchester and Essex ; and he trusted that it would not be made a question between parties ; but that all would unite to procure India that form of govern ment which shoeid be the best suited to her wants, the beet calculated to expand her resources and elevate her teeming population. (Loud cheers.) - - ' Sir T. MADDOCI avowed himself still unconviand of I the propriety of immediate legislation. He did not how -1 ever object to the introduction of the bill, as affording an ' opportunity for discussion. lie objected to the present form of government, but was not prepared to run a risk in coda to change it entirely, and would be contented with its reform and modification. lie suggested various reforms, such as the removal of the invidious distinction between the honorary rewards conferred upon the military and civil services; and he strongly urged the admission of natives into the legislative council. Mr. DANDY SEYMOUR said that so little attention had been paid to the various petitions from India that it must be felt throughout that country that sufficient OM was not bestowed upon it by the Lome government. The committee which had sat was composed of 39 member', of whom 31 were either members of the government or in some way emended with the company, leaving only eight independ ent members. They had all heard what were the feelings of the chairman of the committee; sad everyone knew that when a chairman had such very decided opinions, and the majority of the committee agreed with him, It was utterly useless to bring witnesses before such a c ommittee. In fast, so extraordinary had been the conduct of the go vernment ea the committee, that, having last year finished tbie question of the bonze government, it had been n =ag= by the President of the Board of Control only reeks ago, (Hear, boo.) That was certainly an a nimism that be had sot gel sufficient eridenee on that ques tion; and then he astually brought In his bill before the radesse was reported to the louse and put into the bands of swab's,. (Hear, beer.) The commonest railway NU Mb meet iasignideaot subject ever brought before the harm—would not be treated with snob disrespect as Mat. (Hear, hear.) Yet this was perhaps the greatest garde& that could possibly mote before them, and one of the mast influential as regarded the welfare of Wiliam= NM (Hear, hear.) He felt deeply for the Indian people. Hi bad had the opportunity of observing the effects of the eggesite principles of fear end love during two or three prase which he passed in the RI MINI Asiatic • es. Hs had been there while the old a yawn, which we were WS determined to pursue, was io existence, and also when the sew system was introduced by the moat able adminis trator of the time in Europe 10 years sac. The latter had bona erowsed with the greatest success; and the result W Ws to increase the Russian influence throughout the whole of Asia. He had listened to the speeches of Sir C. Wood owl Sir J. Hogg, and he heard such a continuation of eais-representations from beginning to end ; he believed they were calculated to give a very false impressioa to the people of England. who, he hoped, would study the subject them selves, and not be guided by the Whig minister. The Whig policy of 1839 was not one that brought success or glory to this country; it was eminently a failure ; and this was the policy that was now sought to be continued. Sir Ju. Hogg had said that boo. members did not consult the papers laid before Parliament and the evidence before the committee. His answer was, that that evidence was taken before a partial committee; it was not worth anything; and it was looked upon in India as a mockery, and was so designated in the public papers. After addressing himself more particularly to the grenences com plained of, he said he believed that more than half the members of the opposition viewed this measure only as a temporary one, designed to break the fall of the directors. The policy of the government was to keep this buffer as long as they could ; but they knew very well that the nati-n . s sense of morel responsibility having been awakened, the Court of Directors could not be continued very long. ' lie would not enter into the merits of the bill then about to be introduced, but he would put it to the government ' whether they did not think that agitation would go on just as much after the bill was passed emit would have done bad legislation been delayed for another year—whether they would nit soon be compelled to undertake the responsi bility which they had shown themselves so anxious to avoid ? (Ironical cries of " hear, bear," from Mr. Ileitis ) The hon. member would base an opportunity of speaking, and as the representative of the important commercial cen t stitueney et Paisley it would become him to state the : grounds of the course which he intended to take. (Hear, I hear.) He (Mr. D. Seymour) had endeavoured to explain r whhe could not agree with the right hon. gentleman (Sir C.Wood) that the government of the East India Company : ' had been successful during the last 20 year , . He thought that a government which had neglected the administration t of justice, which had debarred the natives from employment, ; I which had done its best to prevent that fusion of laces ; ' which ought to follow when one nation settled among lanother, which was responsible for defects of police, for ; l a low state of trade, and for the piecing obstacle in the way of the settlement of British traders in Indio, was not , ' a government which had contributed to the happiness of • 1 India, and not one therefore which ought to be allowed to stand. _ . Mr. ARCH. lIASTIE said after the direct Mission made to himialf, he would ask the bon. member what he meant to prescribe in order that India might be properly governed (Hear, hear.) He had heard faults enumerated, he had heard abuse of everything that had been dons is India during the last twenty years, -THE t EXPRESS; FRIDAY EVENING, JUNE 10, 1853. but no one had pointed out a remedy, and as the representative of a manufacturing constituency lin was extremely anxious that before they proceeded to tear down the existing form of government, they should know what was to be fubstituled for it. (Hear, hear.) lion. members had read tiradee of disappointed aspirants in India —lawyers and editors of neswepapers—and quoted state ments without proof. Ho was old enough, however, to re. member the throwing open of the trade into India in 1812, ' previous to which the exportation of manufactured goods from this country was only about 130,0001. a year ; whereas it now amounted to 5,000,0001. Those who charged I the Indian government with having thrown mid ' lions of people out of employment, forgot that the constituents of the hon. member for Manchester had had their goods introduced into India at a duty of only 5 per cent., while a duty of GO per cent. was levied on Indian goods. Mr. BRIGHT said his constituents did not want any favour in the matter. . . Mr. 11ASTIE continued—What he rose principally to say, however, was, that ho was extremely anxious that before cinsentiog to the destruction of a government from which the people of India bad derived enormous advan tages, and by which the peopk of England, among the rest his own constituents, had greatly benefited, they should know clearly what was proposed in its stead. Mr. HUMS said he did not concur in either of the views which had Peen taken of this subject. (Laughter.) He agreed, indeed, with his hon. friend who had just sat down, that before they consented to destroy the present government they ought clearly to understand what they were to have in its place; and he thought they ought es pecially to ascertain what bad been the result of the system pursued since 1834. He would not refer to extracts which had reference to a period prior to 1834, be cause be thought they were inapplicable—(hear, hear) — the question being whether the government established in 1833 had produced the results contempluted at the time, and which the people of India had a right to expect. Much that had been said with regard to misgovernment was no doubt true. Many measures that would have added to the prosperity of India had been neglected, but very much more had been done than some parties were inclined to admit. But, apart from that question, the present attempt to legislate inlino ranee of what had taken place since 1831 was premature and unatatesmanlike. The proper course would have been te institute inquiries into every department of the govern. ment of India, as was done in 1830, 1831, 1832, and 1833, preparatory to legislating, and not to deal with a question of this magnitude as though they were called upon to act in a sudden emergency. He could scarcely bring himself to believe that the government themselves really had any idea of legislating permanently this year upon the subject, especially when he recollected that the Court of Directors were not consulted until the ISth of June, whereas all previous changes were submitted to them, and their opinion was taken upon them long before they were brought before parliament. He would venture to say that no petty parish bill was ever attempted to be peened through the house with so much precipitation as was this measure for the future go vernment of a great empire. As he bad said, he approved of many of the measures of the Court of Directors far more than many of his hon. friends near him did, for he knew the important benefits they had conferred upon India ; and it was for that reason, amongst others, that he was anxious that inquiry should take place in the committee as to who was really to blame for the misgovernment of that country. lie wished to pat the saddle on the right horse; and there fore he had been desirous that every complaint lodged against the company's government, either here or in India, should be investigated ; but the committee (which he thought bad not been properly selected) refused to enter upon any such inquiry, end, when he suggested that the parties who had petitioned the house—the native inhabi tants of Bengal, Madras, end Bombay—should be invited to come forward end prove their allegations only, the other members of the committee supported him. Ile had lis tened with attention to the speech of his right hon. friend the President of the Board of Control, but was surprised to hear him, after praising the Court of Directors for the many improvements they had introduced into the govern ment of India, conclude by proposing to destroy that orga nisation under which they had evinced so much efficiency. (Hear, hear.) In the course of the last 20 years Canada, the Cape, and nearly all our colonies, had been at some time or other in almost a state of rebellion, while India had remained quiet. This he attributed to the regularity with which her affairs were conducted, and the onward progress which, under the administration of the Court of Directors, it bad made. This he bad no hesitation in saying, that had the same principles of government w hick had been acted upon in Canada and at the Cape been introduced into India, India would not have been worth 10 years' purchase to us. He looked upon India as of immense importance to this country. It was almost impossible sufficiently to estimate its value to England as an empire. That value was not to be regarded in reference to the 3,000,000 of subsidies drawn from it, but to the strength it gave to the nation by the extension of her establishments and her power. (Hear, hear.) He wanted an inquiry lute the financial question, to whom the increase of the debt to 28,000,000 during the last twenty years was attributable ? There were some, he knew, who charged it to the door of the Court of Directors, but they had nothing to do with it ; and had they acted with justice to themselves and their proprietors, they would have pub lkly protested against that waste and misgovernment which had been carried on by her Majesty's government as repre sented by the Board of Control, and by means of which that increase in the debt had been occasioned. It was the Board of Control who were chargeable with all the abuses and all the estravegance which had taken place ; and by the present measure it was proposed to take away, or at least to diminish, the efficiency of the only cheek they bad bad upon them—viz., the Board of Directors, who were by law the guardians of India. With regard to the 12,000,0001. of debt due to the proprietors, and for the payment of the interest on which 2,000,0001. had been invested to accumu late as a guarantee fund, it had been asked by some persons who had written upon the subject, why not borrow money at 3i per cent., and pay off this debt, which is now liable to 101 per cent. ? But those writers forget that not only the capital but the interest, at the rate stated, was secured to the proprietors until 1874, by the act of 1833. The pro posal, so far as regarded the reinstitution of the Board of Directors, and the depriving them of their patronage, would degrade that body, and destroy their efficiency. What they ought to have done was to 'storm the Court of Directors, by abolishing clique influence, and by extending the basis of the constituency by which they were elected. With regard to the Board of Control, it was most inefficient. Very few of its members knew anything about India; in fact, it was a mere political football used by each succeeding government for the pur pose of filling up a number of offices. The whole of the financial difficulty of India, as he should be able to show, was owing to the incompetency and interference of that board. But for the wars into which that department bad forced the government of India, there would have been an annual surplus in the revenue. And far the wan he maintained the directors were not responsible. He thought the measure ought to be opposed In every stage ; it was is mad proceeding, and no wise man would have taken such a step. It was his opinion that ae bill ought to have been introduced without the fullest inquiry. Mr. BLACKETT, on the part of the hon. member for Poole, begged to say with reference to an observation of his, that there were only two newspapers who supported this measure, and they were in the pay of the government, that it had only escaped him in the heat and enthusiasm of debate. _ _ _ Lesye was then given to bring in the bill. CUSTOMS ACTS. The house haying gone into committee upon these acts, the Chairman read that portion of the tariff relating to the ! duties on oranges and lemons. Sir W. JOLLIFFE regretted the absence of the Chan ! miler of the Exchequer, as he wished to say a few words relative to what had fallen from that right hon. gentleman at en earlier period of the evening. The right hon. gentle man had stated that some delay had occurred in reference to the matter now before the committee, and it seemed to him (Sir W.Jolliffe) that that statement was made in such a way as to lead the house to think that he was to blame. The feet was, that when the matter was last before the house, he made sow observations as to the duties upon oranges and lemons, but when the committee arrived at those items in the tariff he was not in the house, and an hon. friend, it being then two o'clock in the morning, sug ' grated that the consideration of those items should be post poned. That was agreed to by the Chancellor of the Er chequer, who now complained of the delay. He (Sir W. Jolliffe) mast certainly complain of this, more particularly u the accusation of the right hon. gentleman was made at a time when he (Sir W. Jolliffe) could not, according to the rules of the house, offer anything in reply. With regard to ' the duty now under consideration, he would point out to', the committee that, while the Chancellor of the Exchequer ' proposed to reduce the duties upon most foreign fruits to one-half of their present amount, he only reduced the duty upon oranges and lemons one.third. These articles were essentially the poor:teen's luxuries, and they entered in no way into competition with home produce. He therefore moved that the duty, instead of standing at Bsl., as at present proposed, should be reduced to 6d. Lord J. RUSSELL could assure the hon. member oppo site (Sir W. Jolliffe) that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in referring to the delay which hod taken place, did not mean to bring any accusation against him. All his right hon. friend stated was, that delay would lead aad was leading to very mischievous consequences as regards the dealers in oranges and lemons. Mr. WILSON said that at present the duty upon oranges and lemons was charged in the most clumsy way—so clumsy, indeed, that it was almost impossible to state with accuracy what proportion toe duty now proposed bore to that at present payable. As regards the actual amount fired in the tariff, he could only say that much correspon dence had taken place upon the subject with some of the leading traders in these fruits, and the duty prop sad by his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer was considered by them a fair adjustment of the matter. Mr. IIL'ME, believing that nothing was so beneficial and needful to the working classes as the fruits under conside ration, would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to abo lish the duty upon them altogether. [The right hon. gen tleman came into the house while Mr. Wilton was ' , peaking. Sir W. JOLLIFFE repeated his complaint in regard to the statement made by the Chancellor of the Exch equer . The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that all he had stated wee that an hon. member—and he referred to the bon. member for Petersfield (Sir W. Jolliff..)—had spoken with respect to this matter, and bad intimated an Idea of making a proposition to the committee; but he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had never laid that any hon. member had caused any &ley, because it was not in his recollection that any one had done so. (IL ar.) The only recollection he had upon the matter was, that when them items came before the committee upon a former occa sion, the hon. member for Berkshire had, out of respect to the hon. member opposite (Sir W. Jolliffe) asked • the committee to postpone the consideration of this particular matter, to which suggestion lie (tbe Chan cellor of the Esehequer) had made no objection. Passing however, to a more important point —( hear ) — the proposi tion of ate hon. member for Muntrosa (Mr. Hume), he con fessed that that hon. gentleman had given several most ex cadent reasons in support of his opinion. The misfortune was that thew reasons would apply to so many other articles in the tariff. [" No," from Mr. Hume.) He cer- WO thought that if tea, for instance, were introduced into his hon. friend', argument, instead of oranges and lemons, it would De equally logical. But the answer to all such reasoning was to be found in the very homely es pre soon—'• You must cut your cloth according to your mea sure." Did the lion. member (Mr. Hume) think that, in the financial statement for the year, too large a surplus had been left ? In a financial point of view, this was not as insignificant question. The reduction of duty, as nearly as could be estimated, was in effect to about oue h ilf—in round numbers about 40,0001. It was, ho sever, thought that a considerable increase in consumption would take place, which would bring the revenue upon this head up to about 56,0001. ; so that the actual loss would not be more than 25,000!. But if the duty were to be abolished euirely, there would at once arise a dead loss of 64,000 f. The sur pine, small at the commencement, had already been further reduced by alterations in one or two items, and he must, therefore, beg his hon. friends to he content with the reduc tion as he had proposed it. Sir C. BURRELL concurred with the hon. member for Montrose in his view of this item. Sir W. JOLLIFFE thought that the Chancellor of the I Exchequer, although he had answered the hon. gentleman 'oup*si a (Mr. Hume), had not given any reason why his (Sir W. Jolliffe's) proposition should not bo accepted. The amendment of Sir W. Jolliffe was lost, and the item as proposed adopted by the committee without a division. Upon the item " currants"— Mr. MOFFATT objected to the distinction which it was now proposed to introduce between currants and raisins. It had been settled long sines that these fruits ought to bear the same duties, and now it was proposed that oae should be rated much higher than the other. This would give great offence to the lonian Islands, the chief produce of which was currants, and would furnish them with a valid ground for complaint. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER differed entirely from the conclusions to which his hon. friend (Mr. Moffatt) had come upon this question. For the same rea sons as he had advanced 'upon the question of the duties upon oranges and lemons be must object to any alteration in the duty upon currants. It was true that the argument of the hon. member as to the effect upon the lonian Islands was not without weight, but in a question like that before the committee it was IM possible for the government to look at one element alone ; they must not make the welfare of countries is which they were interested their exclusive consideration. The first question to be considered was the comfort of the consumer, after which, the next question was, what would be the effect I of the reduction in a fiscal point of view ? Would the duty re cover itself, or if not, could the MU be otherwise covered ? All of these questions should be taken into consideration before making any actual step, and it would nut be just to reduce a duty until the effect of the' reduction upon the finances was considered. His hon. friend said they were going to lay • differentiall duty on currants, as against raisins. How was it a differ ential duty ? Not because the articles were the same, be. cause they were different; not because the price was the same, because the price of currants was double the price of raisins. When the price was lower he should agree with his hon. friend in reducing the duty on currants. At pre sent the state of things was exceptional, there being a blight on currants. If his hon. friend were to persuade the committee to reduce the duty on currants by Is. or os. a cwt., the benefit would net accrue to the consumer, and the revenue would not gain, and the only parties who would benefit would be the importers. The revenue from cuirants averaged near 400,0001. In 1&51 it was, 3.58,9001., and even last year, with a greatly reduced einsumption, it was 285,0001., and they could not afford to give away 100,000/. on an article of this kind in the present fiscal state of affairs. At the same time he was disposed to re-open the question when the state of the revenue would permit, and there was a prospect of such a supply as to induce a reasonable expectation that the revenue would recover the lose. Mr. MOFFATT said after the statement of the Chan cellor of the Exchequer he would not trouble the house to divide. 1 • le , * Mr. HUME suggested that the3cluty should be 9e. 4d. instead of 10s. a cwt., which would:greatly facilitate calcu lations. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER admitted that it might be a convenience if the mode in which the duties were charged was exactly in accordance with the minute division of coins; but if they were to make a change now they might have to make another change next jeer, seeing that the question of a decimal coinage, on which he gave no opinion, was under consideration. The item was then agreed to. Oa the item of books, Mr. COWAN observed that the duty on foreign books ought not to be less than the excise duty on paper, other wise great injustice would be done to publishers and printers at home. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought this Question should not be mixed up with the article of paper. It would not be worthy of this country, or any intelligent and enlightened body of men like the paper manufacturers, to contend forjestricting the trade in books. Mr. COWAN said he had not any interest in it, or a very remote one. The object was to impose the excise duty on paper used for foreign books, which might be, and often were, in the English language. One great source of the expense of publishing books and pamphlets was the neces sity of destroying a portion of the impression on which the duty had been paid. The CHAIRMAN then put the question, that a duty of 30s. per cwt. be levied on foreign books, and of 15s. on books published in countries with which we have a treaty of copyright. Mr. COWAN moved that the latter duty be 11. 3s. 4d. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the effect of carrying that amendment would be that we must have no treaties with other countries for international copyright. The item, as originally proposed, was then agreed to. The remaining articles were then agreed to, and the house resumed. EXCISE DUTIES AND SPIRITS BILL. The house went into committee on this bill. Mr. P. O'BRIEN appealed to the Chancellor of the Ex chequer not to proceed. Many Irish members bad left the house, expecting the India debate to have lasted the whole of the evening. Mr. BOWYER enforced the same argument, and moved that the chairman do repot progress. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that this' was not merely a bill imposing duties, but one of regulation. Its provisions had been referred to the prin cipal distillers of the three kingdoms, and been for the most part acquiesced in. He hoped, therefore, that the hon. gentlemen would suffer it to pass through committee, and take the discussion as to the question of duty, at an other stage. Atter some conversation, however, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER consented not to contest the point. Sir J. WALIIESLY hoped the right hon. gentleman would take into consideration the equalisation of the dif ferences of duty between foreign and colonial spirits. The duty on British spirits wu now 7s. 10d. per gallon ; and that on West Indian rum, Bs. 4d. (Hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that on important committee wu now sitting on the subj ect of licenses, which might materially affect the spirit duties : and he, therefore, thoufht it better to reserve the question until the result of that inquiry should be before the house. (Hew, hut.) Mr. HUMS bad given notice of a motion respecting the refining of sugar, the object of which was to prevent the uecessity for exp ortingi sugar to Jersey, and bringing it hack again. When would the right hon. gentleman take the discussion on that motion ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not give a satisfactory answer. With the maw of public busi ness before them, if he attempted to be explicit, he was afraid he should only mislead the hon. gentleman. The CHAIRMAN then reported progress. BANKRUPTCY (SCOTLAND) BILL. The house then went into committee on this bill, and the several clauses were agreed to. COPIES OF SPECIFICATIONS REPEAL BILL. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL postponed the second reading of this bill till Thursday next. COPYIIOLD'S BILL. This bill was readatiiiitimeanTlpaaied. SAVINGS BANKS. The report on this subject was received. TOWER HAMLETS IMPROVEMENTS. ..... . Sir W. DIOLESWORTH obtained leave to bring in, a bill to amend the acts and extend the time for eonstnicting a a new street from Spitaltields to Shoreditch. The bill was brought in and read a Stat time. REPAYMENT OF ADVANCES. Mr. WILSON moved for leave to bring in a bill for alter ing the mode of repayment of advances by the public works loan commissioners, &c. He briefly stated the object of the bill, which was to remedy some anomalies existing in the present mode of repaying advances. Leave was given, and the bill was brought in and read a first time. THE INDIA GOVERNMENT BILL. Sir C. WOOD brought in this bill, which war read a first time. _ _ The second reading was fired for the 23rd inst. The house adjourned at half-past twelve o'clock. COURT OF COMMON COUNClL.—Yesterday a court was held for the despatch of business. The Chairman of the Officers and Clerks Committee brought up a report "on the office of Chamberlain, and for sealing the deed for regulating the same." It was founded mainly on the arrangement made with the two previous chamberlains. On the motion that the Chamberlain's salary be fixed at 2,500/. per annum, Mr. De Jersey moved, and Mr. Fox se conded, an amendment fixing it at 1,5001. This, after a discussion, was rejected by a largo majority. A second amendm nt was then proposed, viz., that the Chamberlain's salary should be 2,000/ instead of 2,500!., a year ; and upon a division it appeared that the amendment was ne gatived by a majority of 41, the numbers being—For 2,0001. a year, 26 ; against it, 67. The original question was then agreed to amidst cheers, and the deed was sealed. After same business of no public importance the court ad journed. .he erpreOxi. TO CORRESPONDENTS. A 4ere4 t'u'ition =f "The l'aprerg," contoihing the paw evenieg's t;tr-te,"o publlatel eTzry T•zesday toff Prlday slyht, :Lb.: for bog. g wa tINCIAI Pt, tutc rated for "The Expresr "London Evening raper, vou4 be at the thtice, IC, Boutesic.dreet , by Two o'clock on th; of ',Ailkoatios. MGR WATER AT LONDON BRIDOR. Tau Dav—Moiraistr. 41. 26. ----Merman, 4b.23.. Tmtoaacw—Mornlag. 41. Cm. LONDON, FRIDAY, JUNE 10. WHILST heartily praying for puce—and whilst inclining strongly to the hope that the gloomy cloud now overhanging Europe will clear off without blood_ shed—it may not be unwise to glance over the means the SULTAN has at command fur defence against any attack from the CZAR. Those who told us a short time since that Russia was honourable and disin terested told us also that Turkey was crumbling and helpless. Let us sec whether a few facts and figures will not demonstrate the falsity of the last assertion as completely as political events have exploded the first. The Turkish army is set down in very consider able figures. The "Regular active army" is stated to be 138,680 men ; the reserve, 138,680 men ; the irregular troops, 61,500 men ; auxiliary contingents, 110,000 men; giving a grand total of 448,800. Be sides this, the Courrier de Constantinople tells us that the Viceroy of Lover has been most prompt in his loyalty, and has already offered to place 45,000 men, commanded by a French officer, at the service of the SULTAN; whilst an Albanian ruler has volunteered to lead a very far larger num ber of soldiers against the Russians—and Albanians, be it remembered, will fight. Whether these Alba nians and Egyptians are included under the " Auxi liary Contingents" in the general muster-roll of the SULTAN'S army does not appear; but, even if the grand total be only 400,000 men, it is a large force when we remember that the troops are not to be led to a war of aggression, but are simply to act for national defence. The desire of all sensible men, in all countries, is of course for peace on any honour able terms; but if Russia,—led by the tameless will of an irresponsible despot,—forces the Ottomans to use arms in self-defence, the as; iration of all good and true men will be " May Heaven defend the right." Everybody knows the difference between a fleet or an army on paper, and the same force ready to take order of battle. It is nothing new therefore to say that the list of the Turkish farces afloat, given in the French papers, puts the Ottoman fleet rather ae it may be, than as at this moment it is. But on the good authority of an experienced naval officer just returned from Constantinople, we may say that the SULTAN has a very satisfactory squadron ready for any emergency that may arise. He has at this hour, in commission, and manned, four line•of-battle ships, mounting from 80 to 120 guns each ; two very heavy frigates, built by American shipwrights, and—let the truth be told—finer vessels of their class than we can show in the English navy; several fine steamers in excellent order, besides many smaller vessels of war. The crews of these ships are all expert in gunnery, having been instructed in that warlike art by Eng lish officers, and the entire Ottoman fleet is under tic:: charge of a Turkish Admiral, who is no other than a captain of the English navy—Capt. ADOLPHUS SLADE, an active officer and good seaman, in the prime of life, and author moreover of a book about Tur key, published is London some time ago. He is said to be gradually bringing the Turkish sailors up to the standard of English seamanship, and if they have not yet reached that point, they have at least so far advanced that—in the opinion of naval men who have seen both fleets—any given num ber of Turkish ships and men would be able to beat a similar number of Russians if their vessels were placed together in sea fight. The Turks are stated to be almost as good as the Russians in seamanship, and very much better in gunnery, which latter superiority would give the Ottomans the advantage gun for gun. Indeed, an other English Navy officer, Captain BORLASE, is now, and has long been, engaged at Constanti nople, drilling successive Turkish crews in gun nery; and he is understood to report—that, com paring his former experience on board the Excellent at Portsmouth with what he has seen in the East, he considers that the Turks acquire the use of ships' guns more quickly than English seamen do. Altogether it seems certain that the Turks are quite able to give a very good ac count of themselves, should the Russians be unhappily and wickedly determined to sail down on Con stantinople. The Russian fleet in the Black Sea is said to bear 2,500 guns. But this is the statement on paper, and if that is to be accepted as evidence on the subject, we may then, by the same rule, put down the general statement of the Turkish fleet. This is given by the Courrier de Constanti nople as follows : 6 sail of the line of from 74 to 90 guns and from GOO to 900 men. 11 frigates of 52 to 64 guns, 400 to 500 men. 12 corvettes from 11 to 48 guns, 150 to 260 men. 4 brigs from 12 to 18 guns, 100 to 150 men. 6 steam-frigates from 450 to 800 horse power. 22 cutters, schooners, and other small craft. Taking the least favourable view of the case, it appears quite clear that the Turks, in co-operation with either the French or the English fleets in the Sea of Marmora or the Black Sea, could meet with success all the naval force Russia could bring there. If England and France were together in the Turkish waters the Force of Defence would be so unapproachable, that Russia would scarcely dare to open an attack, and the peace would not I be broken ;—for burglars do not break open a door when the house is surrounded by policemen. It should be remembered, however, that whilst prompt action might prevent aggression on the Bos phorus, yet any hostile force once in the Sea of Marmora unchallenged, and a few hours might settle the question ; for whilst Constantinople is de fended on the aide of the Mediterranean by a strong range of forts, the defences on the side of the Black Sea are almost contemptible. Approached by ships, the city is comparatively in vulnerable on the European side—whilst helpless on the other. This, of course, tells all in favour of any foe sailing down from Odessa before friendly reinforce ments had had time to pass the forts from the other sea. The British fleet under Admiral DUNDAS, though not including a large number of ships, is a very fine force, and, acting as it does under a popu lar commander, would be sure to do its duty, what ever that duty might happen to be. We sincerely hope that our seamen will not have to come into col lision with JOHN Dona.% (as the Russians are called by the English tars). Should they do so, the Cz.o. will doubtless be doubly cautious before he again breaks treaties which England is bound by honour and interest to maintain. The probabilities are that no shot will be fired this time near Constantinople, but whilst only threats are resorted to on the shores of the Black Sea, armies will be put in motion on the Pruth. A Russian force may cross the frontier, and Wallachia and Moldavia be occupied—not conquered. Once in pos session, the Autocrat may say in derision, " Turn me out if you can." What will Europe say then ? TllEltEious district ar :ss r e u l m an o d urs in o d f ei l f e re r cation of th e ite D ( i ft , fil u: e i to be held i for the Inspection of Nunneries. ow much will be proiuced by such meetings, and lir amount of remonstrance, time ve ill show ; but sa with deci sions whether it be little or much, th ere w ill remain avast amount of interest which will fi n d no pu b lic expres. sion, and which need find no su c h express i on, as it is rather a speculative and histori ca l th an a pulitical ie. terest which causes the proposed m easure to be talked over as it is in a multitude o f B r i t i s h homes. absolutely to be opposite id on case of the civil visitation o f N unner i es is, in bothfact;are i onesde sides, possible.wt h h a which hn T t n h e e isr hb e eurt so in y u be eh sympathy There may both sides, but there can be no compromis e of the ultimate judgment. It is a case of collision between the Catholic religion and a polity which (no matter whether it be Protestant or not), is not based upon that religion nor organised by it. Such collision s have taken place for many centuries, in various countries, and about all sorts of questions. The peculiar interest of the present case is that it has arisen in consequence of the successful claim of the Catholics to share the religicus liberty of Protestants. It is a curious phase of the world's history, and not the less interesting because it was sure to arrive, which presents the old dogmatic faith, whose whole basis of distinctive character wa s Authority, adducing, in England and Ireland, the Protestant arguments in favour of religious liberty, while carefully protecting itself from schism in con tinental countries. In England and Ireland it ob. tamed liberty ; and one of the most striking conse quences of Catholic Emancipation has been the increase of conventual establishments. The ques tion now is whether—the political liberties of the Catholic body being secured to them by our l'rotes tant principles—those same principles are or are not to extend protection to the civil liberties of cer tain Catholics who are withdrawn from the ordinary open protection of our laws. The difficulty of the question, as of all the contested questions between the Catholics and the State, lies in the application of the principles of religious liberty which both parties invoke. When the Catholics claimed emancipation, in the name of religious liberty, and when we supported them in that claim, their opponents con. tended that they were already in possession of full liberty, and that it was only political privilege that was withheld from them. The obvious reply was that eivilsdisability on the ground of religious opinion is an infringement of religious liberty, because it sets a price of reward or punishment on particular opi nions ; and that this view is not affected by the poli tical authority of Home being incorporated with its re ligious dogma. And now, on the other hand, the Catho lics who object to the proposed visitation of Nunneries do so on the ground that their religious liberty is in. elided by it, while the advocates of the measure assert that it is purely protective of civil liberty. The fact seems to be that, while Protestants can easily, for all practical purposes, classify their liber ties as religious and civil, the Catholics cannot sepa rate them. Precisely in proportion as they become able to do so they cease to be orthodox Catholics, and become Protestantised, however little they may be aware of it. It is, therefore, impossible that the proposed bill should meet with favour from consistent Catholics, who disregard their local position under civil rule, though we believe it does, as it ought, from many who consider themselves sound members of their church. It certainly does essentially alter the conditions of monachism in this country; and that is the first item of the remonstrant plea. It breaks up at once the inevitableness which has been, for a few centuries, the main sanc tion of monastic as of married life. The first hermits were free enough, without even a door to their caves in the Lybian Desert; and for some centuries after convents were established monks and nuns could depart at will, though not altogether without stain; and in those days it was not uncommon to enter a convent for a declared term of years, and thou re turn to the world. But no suck thing is thought of now; and when we see it declared, as it is on the present occasion, that nuns are now and then sanc tioned in leaving their convents, the very showing of the case reveals that such a release is an exceptional and remarkable circumstance. In fact, the convent life is as irreversibly altered as the matrimonial when tho inevitableness of the position is broken in upon ; and, though taking the veil is not a sacrament, like marriage, we cannot wonder that those in whose eyes the spiritual marriage is holy should deprecate the introduction of any idea of laxity into it. And then they say that the vast ma jority of nuns are satisfied and happy ; whence they argue that no change is needed. Many nuns, no doubt, are genuinely happy in a life of active bene volence as well as piety. Many more are probably satisfied, because they know nothing of life and its interests, and have their corporate pride and vanity incessantly gratified by the fostering of the curious notions that nuns have of their position in comparison with that of people in the world. If, again, the sister hood are what Protestants would call ignorant, it mast be remembered that in Catholic eyes this ig norance appears under the form of sanctity and in nocence ; and it is not to be wondered at that they shrink from any change which can wither or taint it. As for the objections that we hear most of, that virtuous and resolved ladies would be insulted by official visits, and are already insulted by the notion that their whole sisterhood are not as resolved and satisfied as themselves—we hold that sort of complaint as no otherwise worthy of notice than as it suggests that there must be grave objections be hind which are veiled by this flimsy protest. Ex actly in as far as the case of these ladies is sound, will they be glad that it should be seen to be so. It can, be no insult or trial to them to have henceforth the most indisputable testimony that could be de vised on behalf of the soundness and rectitude of their position and circumstances. It will be an im mense relief to be secured henceforward from the slander which is always echoing somewhere in so ciety, and will continue to defame convents and their inmates, while both are shrouded in mystery. AS for the plea that convents are not mysterious places now, but open to the visits of ladies —Protestant as well as Catholic—this reduces the proposed change to something so small as to render ridiculous the violence of language expended upon it. In short, if there is already no mystery, the proposed innovation is practically very slight : and if there is mystery, the innovation is the more necessary. In either case, any woman of sincere devoutness in her vocation will rejoice to discredit suspicion, silence slander, and vindicate the choice of her life and the honour of her faith by so small a sacrifice as admitting a legal authority from time to time to see that all is right, and that nobody suffers for her privileges. So much as a matter of sentiment and sympathy. The stern facts of the case must have some notice; and they are so stern that a bare notice suffices. The age at which nuns may devote themselves tar life varies in different countries, as does the period of ; probation : but the rule laid down by the Council of Trent is, that the vows should not be taken before ; the age of sixteen. We believe there arc few nuns i who have not professed before they were out of their teens. What can they know of themselves or of life at that age which can justify their being allowed to answer for themselves for the whole of their lives, and to preclude themselves from being inquired of whether they desire to abide by their choice? It ia