The Express. — London, England, 1847-04-21 00:00:00

lir J. Dews, tem llleina (tee makes? ; Mr. W. Rya.. from Dirbl; L I JIIIMheeme IMearyteetitellsa at nhealapham ; ter.lielmOieim sitere eial eerperaelow et iheareensl; Mr.Ceuermeneniallnw JIM.* ad and firlon la tsinnishire;Mr.arommeekegge r=l,....tr. -7,---. ~..:ery; ri.=.2-..., vie.....,, Mt it. emus, several under tram Zees I SOW *Om; Mr. Lt.. Cum, nom amemet ot we Leta Jens lieteste, from a pia •in Waal* ; ell enist—le bal r el tee government scheme sr sissides. NAL Ham nemiChihsem, for esptortneet of ii7 tir M gral. lie biw arober:Ft; t r o u tigraTi =tr . .... .... asaa —Lord J. smear, from the Miners et fa War a the Warehominguill COMMITTEE ON DIVORCE BILLS. Mr. Hailer moved to nominate the following members a avi millet committee on divorce bills ; —Mr. H syter, Mr. Cupps, Mr. Burroughes, Mr. Tainted, Mr. Aldan, Sir J.' Y. Buller, Mr. W. Patten, Mr. Evans, Mr. R Scott, Mr. Watson ' Mr. S. Wortley, L mid Courtenay, Mr. Pins'. . Mr. W.Laseelles, and Sir J. Pakington.—Agreed to. • CROYDON GAlif BILL. .• Mr. IREENE moved, "That the order made 11th ad February last for referring the petition of the trustees of the *lCaerei and Sussex roads, against the Croydon Commercial (fat and Coke Bill, to the committee on the bill, he reed; Mist the said order be discharged ; that the said petition be withdrawn."—Agreed to. igIIDDERSFIELD AND MANCHESTER RAILWAY. Mr. B. DENISON moved, " That it be an instruction to Ne examiner of petitions for private hills, that he do enter. e the memorial of Mr. R. B. Wilma, agaiast the Hodder► geld and Manchester R .ilway petition,tor edd ii limit provides, notwithstanding that the same memonal was cot *posited die the. private bill office within the time limited by the Meridiem orders." The hon. member stated the the leseAea tad arisen from the absence from home of the peti.ioner, and his solicitor having no means of communicating with hint. Mr. GREENE opposed the motion, on the ground of the Ituportance of a strict adherence to the standing orders. Mr. AOLIONBY thought this was a ease in which the role might be properly relaxed, otherwise great injustice mould he dose. Mr. HOI)OSON said it was merely a question whether Mr. Wilson should be allowed to go before the examiners; as was not at all precluded from going before the committee e the merits. Mr. ESTCOURT was in favour of the indulgence being granted. Ultimately the question was adjourned till this day. SOUTHAMPTON CONSUMERS' 0.0 AND COKE BILL Mr. HINDLEY moved the second reeding of this TAIL Mr. G. W. HOPE opposed the motion; and the second reading was deferred for a week. SAVINGS BANKS ANNUITY ACT. Mr. P. SCROPE postponed hit moti in for leave to bring in a bill to extend the provisions of this act until Tuesiay melt. ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIONERS FOR ENGLAND. Lord J. RUSSELL moved for leave to bring in a bill to emend several acts fur the appointment of ecclesiastical Oemmissioners for Enteand. It wet his int, ration to make a statement of the objects of this Lill on its second reading. Leave granted. GOVERNMENT OF INDIA. Mr. HUME postponed his resolutions on this subject till that day fortnight REGISTRATION OF PRACTITIONERS IN, AND . tRACTICE OF, MEDICINE. Mr. WAKLEY moved for and obtained lure to bring in &bill to provide for the registration of legally qualified pros gllooers is medicine, and to mimed the law relating to the practice of medicine in England and Ireland. RECLAMATION OF WASTE LANDS. Mr. LABOUCHERE postponed his motion fur leave to bring in a bill on this subject till this day week. THE BRIG THETIS. Capt PECHELL postponed his motion for the bill charged by the Board of Admiralty as salvage on the pro „party Penn in the brig Thetis, rid this day week. • GOVERNMENT PLAN OF EDUCATION. _ ADJOURNED DEBATE. Mr. EWART resumed the debate by stating that, while ampremehlag this important question, he should proclaim that Mt wee always an advocate of a system of notional edu Prim, bat he should alto state that when he, for the first :re, heard the proposition that was made by the council, , e was certainly struck with its great want of comprehen- , recess. It seemed to him to Le a matter of considerable I doubt whether it would not be better to wait for the find , and ample verdict of the people of this country on this smatter. He felt. for another reason, that tl:is was not a , auffietently comprehensive plau, because any system which I Called itself a national system of education ought to be, mere , or lent, founded on a representative principle, by means of makingeepresentative districts and by means of an education , Atte. sThat wee the system which wee adopted in other , vleuntries. They had heard lust night from tie hon. memb r , kr Edinburgh much relating to the system pursued in Mu hussetts. That was a representative system, and was (ceded on the principle of local rating ; and by these means 1 ere was a system of self government, which it was emeci- , ally desirable to form in currying out any great scheme of i educatioc. The same system existed in France. The coin 1 wunes of the different parts of France were formed on the i «representative principle, and they conducted their daft rent I echoes. The same system was pursued in Holland , and'Germany. In 'Scotland the landed proprietors , were the persons who conducted the business with the cler- , gymea. These objections were apparent on the first pro- 1 imeal of the measure, but he was of opinion that the govern ment might usefully assist, though it ought not to interfere with, the education of the country. He felt that he should , Ilse acting inconsistently with his own p rinciples i and his con- , duet if, oa this or any other occasion, e pursued a course at , oarisnee with that which, in a former session of parliament, I to thought it his duty to adopt. He was of opinion that the , eignveroment may interpose but not interftre. It was his i (million that the government should rather develop the I spepuler feelings in favour of education than attempt to go- , tern or control them. He thought that any swam of edn , cation in this country should be purely English and national , In its Mummer. They could not, as WAS clone in Prussia, I Bnport any exotic principle of education. Thee should re- , member that they were legislating fi ir England and not for , Prussia. The government should not interfere M matters of i eliglial . le, and least of all should they interfere in mamas of , ;religious o pin ion. He would now see how far this 1 plain accorded with the principle which he laid down • tffor the guidance of his coeduct on this question. The chief • *grantee of the plan was the introduction of popular teachers, , and stipendiary MMus connected with etym. m of normal achoohmastern It was said that this plan was too much , enflamed with the church and state, but he did not think inch arguments were justified by the facts of the case. He did not we how the state could control these popular ,teachers or normal schoolmasters, because the grants would en in the hands of the manegen of the schools. He slid not see how the church could interfere, because the spirit of that mart of the measure was to give to other religious sects the means of interp sting in the religious affairs of these schools. Thatpart of the measure he thought its essential and chte pee stye feature, and he would sot oppose it, nor did he oppose that part which established schools of industry for awes or rural districts. He thought it a sound propneataon, and he would give it his support. He was also of opinion that the system of appointing the normal echo 'ls for the teachers of those who were in prisons and workhouses, was a system which deserved the mapport of entity Ind pendent member of that hem. His stain objection was to the principle that the schoolmasters /thou's' be the teachers of religion. It wee not the school .master's proper province to meddle with theoretical dal} trines It may be enough to permit him to instruct in the ....neat principles of relation, as . was done in Ireland. If ,Grey) could agree about th ose princ i ples of chest lenity which °mates influence the lives of all—if they ceuld establish a son of neutrel ground on which various religions can meet as on a common basis, then let them be taught. He ob jected that the schoolmaster should be made the inurement of theology. He had no objection thet the scriptures should gee read every day in school; bat he very much feared that this would be nothing more then a rote system, which won d s ee productive of no good. The plan had been tried in Holland, and had utterly failed. He also objected to the prin ple of giving . retiring pensions to the schoolmaster,. Me objected to giving occasional gratuities to masters Who van to decide as to the persons to receive such gratuities ? It was a most dangerous and equivocal power to bestow on any „government He also objected to the pnwi-ion that pupil .teaches who should be unsuccessful candida.es in the nor mal schools should have the chance of a situation under go vernment. He thought this was holding out an invi • _Wien to a man who would be a bad schoolmaster to become an exciseman, and of course a bad one. Alleituatims under government ought to he open to free competition, as was the Case in Prussia, sod even in China. He was not operas* le the whole manure, but he had them three epeeist °limbos. which he should have moved as amendments if, Metes& et the measure being a vote on the miscellaneous estimable. It Bad been a bill, foe, in the latter case, he might have star diddled his objections in amendments, and moved them in the Peened reading or in committee. He would mill mow .them if he hod an opportunity of doing so. The hill wee • step in the right di , ection. although it did not go far enough. and, under any circurnalanoes. he should oppose the amend. trent of the hon. member for Finsbury. Sir C. NAPIER did not knew to whom the noble lord at the head of the government alluded when he maid that segretum had been *mewed upon this question. He could assure him that the obwreatien neither applied to him or Ass hon. colleague. They had been waited on by thesauri and Roman esthetics, who very truly said that too much mint 7 had already been given to the church for the etteees hien of the people : they said they bad no desire themselves to receive money for such a purpose, end it was extremely hsnl that they should be taxed to instruct other people in a religion they did not approve of. (Heer, hear, hear.) He was wary to be obliged to vete against the government, but when he saw that the ertholice were entirely excluded, awl that dissenters were obliged to do whatthey could not con scientiously subscribe to, and when he knew that it was im •ossiblep to attach schools to every sect, and that the mat would consequently exclude a gnat number of children JCena the benefit of education eltegether—when his sow wads grave objections to the measure, he could not honestly gias at his support. The Earl of ARUNDEL o' jected to the measure because esthetics were not allowed to participate in the advantages of the grant, and the noble lord at the brad of et.e Cicero. ment had not said whin the minutes referring to m,,,,,,,,, tat' cities would be pr pond. They had a right to complain of the exclusion as an infraction of the rules which the com mittee of council bad laid down, namely, that they would suspect the rights of conscience. The amount of Ignorant a which existed - in the country was very cr at, and ytt the fit lean s cab (lies, 'three ressionorim had !abetted en Is. g th , .u g h , ut the world in toe inculcation of the intim.ua ti nth. which the poorer classes were in want of were to he re_t :sited from maiming Li removing this fearful twit. He should, however, support the measure, trusting to the justice of the British public, who, he believed. notwithstanding the prejudice against the doctrines of the Roman catholic faith, would hereafter petition in favour of a grant to ' those who professed it for the purposes of education. He thought the words fanaticism and intolerance were often ' misused and misapplied. He leaked with pleasure and pride to the deep religious feelings of the people of this country. They had come down to them from times of old ; and for his part he preferred the ironsides of Cromwell to the demons of the French revolution. Even when they ran in a wrong direction they should treat them with indulgence and ten derness and soothe them with love. (Cheers.) Mr. K. SEYMER hoped that the government would give the question, as it related to the Roman catholic., a fair con sideration on some future occasion. While listening to the speech of the right hon. gentleman the member for Edin burgh he felt that it could not lie answered, and unto the present time he had heard nothing like an answer given to it. Any unprejudiced person taking up these minutes must be surprised at the opposition offered to so ' simple a proposition. He thought that this might be viewed as an extension of the voluntary prin ciple, and that the Church of England made some sacri fices of strict principle with respect to it ; but if the govern ment were to listen to the chinch en one side, and the dis senters on the other, they never could have anything done for the education of the people. (Hear, In au) They did not wish to empty the chapels to fill the churches, but there was ample room for the exertions of all in endeavouring to bring back from vice those millions who did not attend any place of worship. If these were reclaimed, it would not he at the expense of either, but at the expense of vice, brutish igno rance, and practical atheism. (Hear, hear.) He would therefore eurtiolly support the meaeure of the government, Mr. AOLIONBY would have the Roman catholia and the members of the jewish persuasion receive the benefits of education in the schools of the state. He did not know how far they might avail themselves of schools of this description, but he would not by any measure stamp them with a mark of exclusion. (Wear, hear.) On this ground it was that he would vote against the measure of the government, but at the same time, he prayed that a opium of education might he adopted, not one that would only create h art-burnings and dissensions amongst the sub. jects of her Majesty, but one that would satisfy all, that would less n ignorance, diminish crime, offer no impediment or exclusion on the ground of religious tenets, leaving to the rs of each denomination, end to the parents, the duty of teaching their children whatever doctrines they believed in [hi it voisciwnc, •o be right. (Hear, hear.) Lord SANDON • lued the propocil scheme most highly on two grounds: first, becau..e it was founded on the principle that it was the duty of the state to see that the great, et possible amount of edu cation existed ; and secondly, because it recognised the fact that religion was an essential part of everything worthy of the name of education, and that the education of the moral men was that which was moist important. (Hear, hear.) lo this country it appears d impossible that the state should provide for the education of the people. That might be done in countries where there was greater unifor mity and servility of opinion, but, in a country like our own, where there was so much freedom of opinion, and where the habit of giving effect to those opiniocs prevailed so exte..sively, state education seemed to be impossible of at. tainment. What this state did under those circumstances, was to rake the means which the country had itself chosen, and to arsiat in making them effectual. He thought that was a wise course ; anti, in his judgment, it was the only one which could be pursued. (Hear, hear.) He was nut prepared to give an unqualified assent to the minutes, or to aiy that every regulation was the best that could be adopted ; he considered the scheme as part of the process which had been going on for three years, in which they had been going on rep by step, feeling their way, taking care if possible to do no harm, and that every step should be a good one. As to the argument that the duty of religious teaching might be left to the ministers of religion, he believed that it was im posible, if merely on the ground of want of time, that the duty could be performed by such instrumentality. How could a clergyman, having five or ten thousand people under his charge, give religious instruction to all the children in the schools of his parish ? Such a thing was physically im possible. He hailed the proposition before parliament as a very greet step in a very good direction; and he hoped that it would be further extended hereafter, for good as the plan was, there were many of the humbler and poorer districts to which its benefits might not extend, in con sequence of the inadequacy of their own resources. (Hear, hear.) So far from discouraging the voluntary principle, the scheme was a direct stimulant to it—(hear, hear)—it was the principle of this scheme which gave, as it were, a case to those who rested on the voluntary principle. Hs should be exceedingly sorry to see the voluntary principle superseded. He believed that the voluntary principle was a most essential element in the English character and in English habits; and one of the advantages of this measure was, that it would tend to draw out that principle into still more extensive operation. Mr. GISBORNE wished to explain the reasons which would induce him to vote against the measure. It was not that he desired to join in a vote of censure, or entertained any idle apprehensions. He had no hesitation in saying that he thought there was no limit to the duties which a government might perform, except its ability to perform them beneficially for the community over which it presided ; but he had come to the conclusion, find from analogy, and secondly, from experience, that government could not interfere beneficially in the business of educa tion. First, as to the paint of analogy. He had listened with admiration, ria indeed every one must hare done, to the speech of the right hon. gentleman the member for Edinburgh, on the previous evening ; but it I seemed to him that there was nut a defile syllable in that rposeek which would not have Oren equally applicable, if, in stead of simple education, they had been discussing the graver matter of religisn. His speech was quite as much a speech in favour of an estabeshed church as in favour of ea vernment undertaking the education of the people —( hear, hear)—and the steps taken to remove religious ignorance should have been exactly those contended for in the present case. It might have been argued that there should he a grant for building places of worship, places of worship having been established, the right hon. gentleman would have been obliged to take such instructor. as he found ; and having obtained the aid of these instructors, he would have de sired to secure reports from uncrecorrot, with regard to the instruction which had been &Corded. We would, no doubt, have received from rwurientos Watkins inch a report. An How. MEMOIR here moved that the house be counted. Strangers wets ordered to widebaw, but en one readasis ion to the mMery, Mr. GISDORNE hod resumed. He was about to say that one of the church inspectors might report, as the Rev. Henry Marley had done, that in a certain diocese the school rooms were little more than half full, and that great igno rance prevailed : and the conclusion drawn might have been exactly like that which had been drawn by the right hoa gentleman, including, of course, an increase of the number of bishops to oriel° tic the clergy. Well, then, he asked whether the Church of England had answered the ends of religious instruction ? Why the noble bird (Lord J. Russell) bad shown that thousands in this seentry did erat know the name of their maker or of Christ, their Redeemer, and it appeared clearly that the working classes generally were passed by as far as the church was concerned. lie, therefore, deduced from the analogy of the church that a national system of education was sot likely to produce the results expected. Re drew the same conclusion from the experience of the assistance which had been given in national education for the last thirty years. It appeared, from the report of the Rev. H. M zley. that children who were questi ned said that the Queen of England was the Queen of France; that England w•s in Africa-(laughter)—and that in going to Siotland it was necessary to travel southwards; and Mr. Watkins related a case in which, when the question was asked Who collected the Scripturea into a volume ?" the reply given was, " Gomorrah." As far, in short, as they had had experience of the results of the efforts mode for the last thirty years, experience did not lead him to the conclusion that the government could inteurre beneficially in the matter of education. Now, Mr. Ray had United Switzer land and France i.e the purpose of witnessing the systems in operation there ; but though he found admirable ma chinery at work, he seeme i indignant at the hare idea of any one expecting good results at present. In answer to the objection that the people of those two countries were the most d 'affected and turbulent people in Europe, he said that the present linden's of educatoin were only introduced in 1833, and that t ey must not look for any beneficial results under seventy or eighty yearn. He spoke confidently as to the results by the end of that period, hut all they had to set against experience was Mr. Hay's prephe ty. Mr. Kay, too, was far from being always right. His opinions *ere ...doily tweed to Ouse to Mr. David Lung and Prince Puckler-Muskau. Indeed it appeared frem everything that was known, that the morality of Prussia, the best educated c .entry of Germany, was lower than that 'gene ocher art of Germany. Neither could he agree with Mr. Macaulay in his estimate of the Scotch. He had spent many weeks in Olawrow, Oreenuk, and thr Highlands, and he had never seen west- r ignoruce or want of cleanlinees in any country. These things proved that education was not the universal panacea for the ills of a nation. He was not dig:to-ea to think it ea. Ey n at the present time the church, disposed as he was to think of it favourably, was not the educ ,to of the people. The church educated the higher clavier, hut the catholic,' and the Wesleyan were the educators of she lower. Mr. P. 110 R fli WICK said it did not follow that the Scotch were uneducated because the man who car. ied the hen. member'', gun in the Highlands collie' not spa'. He believed the present measure provided the best means of education fir the people that i., was ;swage for the governs meat to provide. There was an admitted evil to be reme died The government proposed a scheme which had in it some 'toed. The amendment proposed a plan for postponing that scheme indefinitely. He felt himself bound to Rapport the scheme of the government. The speech of the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) was worthy Mellen days nf EnglAnd'setateat men. Hewished the nehle lord's measure had been equally bold. In producing' the present state of non 'dilution, he thought the church bad been much to Mime. in the non-observimee by its ministers of the dut7 enjoined upon them by the rubrics— constantly to examine the children under their charge in the catechism, and the first principles of the Christian religinn. He was of opinion, that had the curio evasions of the clergy been duly held, they would have done much to remedy thin omission, and promote the advance of epirituel and moral education among the people. The me 'sure before the house, though it did not effect all that could be desired, did very much, sod in every point its course was in the right direction. N!ineount MORPETH 'mid, that after the full expnsition which this rat enure had received, on its first introduction and since, he nhou'd not trespass long on the attentitin of the boas., het, a. a member of the itheolinu. Privy Council • as o.•e who had sheen. taken at. anxious part the quiotinr: of ednestioe ; nett, eh ell, ere one who founts himself in the painful petition of being separated in opinion upon this point from many with whom he had heretofore acted, he WAS desirous of making a few observations. He had every need of the consciousness of a good came to support him oe this occasion, for not only este the petitions ho had praeented, wan the immense majority advene to.the course he was pre pared to adopt, but he had to act counter also to the views of many, his regret to differ from whom could be estimated by no ordinary rules. He WAS supported by the ConstiOWS. nen of a good cause, and the conmedon that the different parties or denominations were fighting the whole battle on lower grounds, and with weapons of a coiner temper than befitted the nature of the case ; that they were too intent upon counting the num , ers and weighing the interests of church or chapel, tabernacle or sanctuary, instead of riving the main ettention to th. flock—to the people. (II ex, hear.) He rejoiced to find, at least, that the doctrine so rile out of doors, and which was the burthen of so many petitions, the doctrine, namely, that the state had no right to interfere with the education if the people, eas nut ad mitted within the walls of that house—(near, hear) — though nightly advocated by the hon. member for Der byshire. That hon. gentleman had been particelerly severe in his strictures upon the Pressler s, but a.th 'ugh no doubt Mr. Laing's opinion, quoted by the hon. gotta-man, was unfavourable to the Prussian system of state education, the majority of writers and travellers gave a very different estimate of that system. At all events we w. re now roue to a period when the Prussian people could no longer be stigmatised as wanting the characteristics of a tree nation. (Hear, hear.) As he had before observed, the doctrine that the state had no right to educate the people found no echo in that house. The hon. member for Finsbury had nut touched upon it, end the hon. and learned member fur Bath distinctly repudiated it, expressing his readiness to go much further than the government proposed to go in thi matter. The hon. and 'learned member It id also had the candour to treat with the small considerat'on it deserved the bugbear that the present measure would have the effect of unduly increasing the infi tence of the crown, and the patronage of the ministry. Never was there a more preposterously absurd proposition than that the rewarding a few Behoolmasters, and the encouraging and training some promising scholars, could be teeneu into a dark and insidious engine of corruption, such as lowered beton the eyes of some of the opponents of this measure. The hon. member thought that a more effective scheme mad have been devised, a scheme less sectarian in its tendeacies. Very possibly • but the question for the government wee. what was the tint scheme they could now eury into smote. tion. (Hear, hear.) There were, w usu. - 1, three courses be putsued. (A laugh.) They might Lave adopted ein exclusive scheme, adopting one particular mode of religions" teaching, which, in such a eau, would. in all probetsdite r have been that of the established chui di of the country. To this he could not have assented. They might, next, have taken what he would call the uniform scheme, in which the state would prescribe the same course to all alike, without permitting any special mode of reli gious instruction ; but this would not have met with the consent either of parliament or of the country. The third plan was the co-operatic • scheme, which built non. that which it found, and ms tented itself with voluntary efforts; and this had been adopted as the most practicable and as the most likely to do good. He had heard with much pain the spet ch of his kinsman, the noble member for Arundel. But how did they stand with reference to the Roman Catholics? When he became a member of the council, he found certain principles laid down and established. It was proposal by the present minutes to enlarge and extend those priteiplea, hut not to change them; ere they could be changed, it would be fitting to give fair notice, to cake due application to parlia• went; and certainly to adopt the Dousy vt rsion, or to admit exclusively Catholic schools, would be a change distinctly re wiring such notification and such application to parliament. (Hear.) It was somewhat curious, by tl.e way, that many of those most inclined to complain of ea arnitrery power and discretion vested in the council, were precisely these who also complained that the council had not adopted more decided changes, with tut any reference to parliament. He believed that catholic applications to pardament for assist ance had hardly as yet assumed any distinct form, and be did not at all know how far the catholic hip rushy were pre pared to submit to that inspection which was an essential feature in the government plan. For one, however, he would say, that of no committee which should reject a catho ic application for assistance, solely en the ground of its being catholic, would he be a member. (Hear, hear.) He would not enter much into the gaieties of the question. The advocates of the voluntary system had themselves ad mitted that a most grievous uumber of young persons were wholly without the means of education, and that the evil was one which should be remedied as soon and as energetically as possible. lie would, however, refer to a communication from a valued correspondent at Bradford, who had been making extensive inquiries ices the state and means of education in that town, a locality, le it observed, where voluntaryism was promoted most energetically, and, to a certain extent, successfully. It appeared that there were in the wish of Bradford 13 townships, the population being 119.000; the public schools were 40 in number, the private 111 ; in the public schools there were 4,267 day echolars, in the private 8,789, in the Sunday schools 19,000 — the education in the latter schools being by nu means sate factoiy, first, because it was incomplete in itself, and secondly, because, if rendered more effective, the time occupied in the inadequate application to secular instruction would trespass on the sabbath, hot*, on the cha racter and on the leisure of the day. In these sehools the great proportion of teachers were remake, not more than tee of whom received any salary beyond the Id. or lid. a week paid by the respective teachers. Mane of the bible schools required 21d. or 3d. from each scholar—a sum which, in times of pressure, the poorer climes could not Fire, and the children were accordingly at such periods withdrawn. He trusted that the effect of the present measure would be to render the means of education so regular and so cheap as to enable even the poorest people to keep their children at school. Then, as to the quality of the education now given to the poor. Three years ago, the factory inspectors laid down that the educati n of the chil lien in the greater number of the schools that had come under their notice was altogeteer feeble. Many of th t schools erected by government support were going to decay. In eon school, wnere there were 70 children, the master had nothing but their pence, and paid the rent of the school himself. Another school was in a cottage-house ; it was often full, and there were two beds in the room, where the children of the family slept. In another, estahlished about eleven years, the master made 17s. per week, and the mis tress 124. '1 his school had been for a long time in great difficulties. In another established four yearn, the funds were derived from the peure of the children, which flue. tuated very much. If the attendance diminis hed the master had no funds to fall back upon. He expected his income to be reduced this year on account of increased expenses He did not feel called upon to add anything to what had already been so impressively stated with: respect to the position of the schoolm Atter. But his extremely dispu ming position, and the urgent necewity of giving him the appearance of respectability in the eyes of the community amongst whom he lived and discharged his important duties, would alon' justify more than all the house was called upon to vote. (Hear, hear.) In reference to the connection of crime with toe watt of education. he would confine himself to the dis trict he represented. In the West Riding of Yorkshire, in 1846. there were committed to the geeing 417 prisoners; only 3 could read well ; 120 could read ; 145 imp-rim:6y ; and 149 not at all. The calendar for the last session of the county of York contained 66 prisoners : 10 could not read, 34 imperfectly, and 22 not at all. In the borough of Leeds. whence the most energetic movements against the cause of education had proceeded, 212 prisoners had been committed: 8 could read well, 73 could read, 61 imperfectly, and 74 not at all. (Hear, hear.) The punishment of come had cost the barough of Let fil lest year the following items: con stabulary force, 6,6781, • quarter sessions, 2,8121. ; mainte nance of prisoner., 5,01301. ; York manes, 1,9001. 1 the. re corder, 2001 ; the mistier, 2371 ; interest on money borrowed for the gaol, 2,0001.; total, 18,926/. (Hear, hear) Thi. correspondent added, with perfect rea'on, "There were, a: the time e.l the census, 31,000 houses in Leeds; and as the rate of increase is about one-seventh in six years, there are now 3.5,000 house', which gives an annual cost per house, for the punishment of rime within the harough, of 10s. Bd. per annam. Will it cost the borough 10s. 811. per house, in direct taxation, to educate their people rather than pu nish them ? And if it cost them as much, how great a tat of tears would it save !" Much had been said out of doors as .1) the effect of state education in controlling and curling the national intellect and mind, and putting it in a sort of groove in which the state might hold it convenient that it should run. Considi ring the great variety of dis pates and discussions which hod subsisted since the founda tion of Christianity,—whether of Arians and Athsnasians, of Augustinians and Pet tgiacis, Catholic. and Protestants, Je suits and Jansenistn,Caleinista and Lutherans, High Chun* and Low Church, IK.ngellcals and Puseyites,—he could not refrain from occasionally wishing to see the experiment of a boy or girl of fair intellect, well instructed and informed, growing up to mature age without any prepossessions on such subjects being instilled into their minds, or any bias e tmmultiemed from without, and then seeing to what decision their unbiassed and unassisted judgment would cow-. (Hear.) But there were, unhappily, too many potent counter-influences for evil acting upon the human heart to make this elm rintent a safe one; few p.rents would like to make it on one of their offspring; and no community would prescribe it for its citiz. ns. (Hear.) But he had vet to learn that the minds and intellect, of the infant and youthful p mutation were not liable to be eh niu:l influenced and put into the groove by the iteration either of a Church of England or Wesleyan cstechitm, or by the dr II of h grist or independent commur.itirs, as they could be by the most rigorous tuition, even of Prussia herself. (H •ar, hear.) In the 'scheme proposed, the state officer was not permitted to interfere, in aoy degree, to mould the principle of re i ntent teaching which he found laid down ; and if he did, probably the teaching of the state would be found cramped and coillned than that of its trier iw dissi• dents. In addition to the concern he felt at being separated, on this subject, from many en his constituents, he could not but feel regret that the old protestantlissenting denomins tiona of England, associated witk so much that was precious in our common history, should have committed themselvis to the course up in which they had now entered. (Hear, hoar.) He regretted it, because be believed that the cause which they had refused to sanction, and which they were so resolute in opposing, was emphatically the cause of the working men and the working women of this country. (Mar, hear) He regretted it, because he believed it was the only means now at the disposal of the legislature for tartest,* e ibutieg to the eduration of the poor. (Hear.) He regretted it for hmiself, indeed, because lie alto:ill miss the stnonurageinent and the companion hip to which, through a political wive:ion, now of some duration, he had hear customer! ; hut he should regret it fir their sakes also, be• ,ass he believed sincerely, and not arrogantly, that they wars in the wrong, and, therefore, however this opposition might embitter the struggle, he believed that in the end they would most surely fail. (Hear.) Mr. BRIGHT add Ise was sensible be was defensUng men and principles which were nut very popular in teat tirem- THE EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY EVENING, APRIL 21, 1847. bly ; but, being • nonconformist, and being by birth, edu ration, observation, and conviction, fully eetablished in his principles, he felt bound to protest against the policy an d principles of this measure. The real question before the house had been skilfully kept out of sight by the right hon. member for Edinburgh and the noble lord at the head of the government that question was not whether the state had the right or the power to interfere with education—not whether it was secular education only with which it had • right to interfere—but rather as to the object. tendency, and effect of these minutes upon the position of the established church and the di-seating bodies. If, an contended by the right hon. member for Ealinlturgh, the right of government to interfere was so undoubted, why had nu stateonan yet been bold enough to attempt that interference ? II it was the duty of the government to educate the people, it was equally its duty to enforce their educirien. Vi'diese was the line to he drawn ? (Hear) The noble lord at the head ~f the government had charged the dissenter. with support ing the committee of the privy coined in 1839, and opposing it in 1847. True, many were then in favour of state in terference, hut they had had tome experience from 1839 to 1817. In 1839 the dimentera had regarded the institution of the committee of council as an abatement of the power which the church had wished to usurp, of being able to educate all the people, and that all education ought to be entrusted to her. But from 1839 to this time, no step had been taken by the government which had not tended to aggrandise the established church. In 1839 the noble lord had proposed a schem • which, from the opposition of the church and the Wesleyan., had been withdrawn. Is 1813 the late right honourable Secretary for the Home Department had proposed • scheme in connexion with the factory bill ; but as it gave undue power to the church. it was opposed by the d "scoters, and withdrawn in consequence. In 1847, the noble lord came forward with another scheme which had the same defect, its object, tendency, and inevita ble result being to give enormous and increase f power to the clergy of the estableshed church. It was a scheme of which the dissenters could not strait themselves in accordance with the principles by which they were dissenters; they were therefore bound to step forward and protest against it, as against the former schemes. No wonder they should con clude that it was dangerous to them as eimentin,g b dins, end also to the civil liberty of the people, for government to inter fere with education, as it seemed they could not do so without giving increased power to the already dominant church. From the speeches of the right hon. member for Edinburgh, and the noble lord who bad just sat down, it might be supposed that voluntary effort had not only failed, hut thee It had never attempted to succeed. If the voluntery principle had succeeded in educating the people, few men would say that any interference was desirable ; for no prin ciple was more certain than this,—that whatever a people was able to do for itself, it was nut desirable that govern meat should do for it. (Hear, hear.) It was not fair to say that the voluntary principle had been tried ever sauce the htip tarchy ; it could only fairly be said to date from 1790 ; and even since that period some of the most distinguished members of the church had opposed the education of the common people. (Hear.) Fnim the statistics produced on both aides, it appeared that from 1818 tei the present time, the progress et education had been something extraordinary. In 1818 there were 674.000 das - scholars in England and Wales; in 1833, there were 1,276,000; in 1847, 2,100,000; being, is 1818, one in seventeen of the population; in 1833, one in eleven ; and iti 1847, one in eight. The population had increased only forty-nine per cent. in this period, while the scholars in our day•schools had at least increased 210 per cent. He agreed with the noble lord who had lad ap hen that Sunday-school education was not sufficient; but in speaking of the destitution of education Sunday-schools ought to be taken into account. In 1818 there were 477,000 Suedes , scholars ; in 1833, more than 1,500,00(1; and there had Mace been a very rapid increase. Within the last three or four year., the free church of Soot land had raised more than a million reeling, and had pro. posed to build, or was budding, schools in 600 or 700 parishes. It anything was more honourable to the people of Scotland in this generation than another, it was tee mag nanimous and wonderful effort which had 1 / 1 011 made by the members of that communion to establish for themselves • church free from the trammels and embarrassments at tendant upon a connexion with the state. In Wales, seven or eight years ago, not one of the 73 parishes in Angles.* in which there were churches, had Sunday-schools connected with them; whilut there were in the county 156 Sunday schools kept by the various denominations of die teeters. (Hear, hear.) In the six counties of North Wales, 1,022 dinenter's places of worship had Sunday• schools connected with them: the Calvinistic Methodists had 479 schools; the Independents, 260 ; the Baptists.6l • the Wesleyan', 202; altogether attended by about 140,0 00 children. In that part of the kingdom, the education of the people had been altogether the work of tho dissenteis ; not an bon. memb r from Wales, on whichever side of the house he eat, could deny that something like nine out of ten of the whole of the labouring classes in Wales, who had received education within the last 50 years, hail received it from the dissenting bodies. A COOlOll4lOll of inquiry was now at work in Wales: he ventured to foretell that their report would corroborate this to the utmost, and show, that where the church had educated one child in Wales, of late years the dissenters had educated eight or ten. The noble Ton i seemed to differ from the hon. gentleman the member for Edinburgh. lie stated that he was of opinion that the voluntary principle had done a great deal to pro mote schnois sufficient for the wants of the people. So that they had the authority of the aohle lord to this effect, that the voluntary system had provided schools in sufficient abundance ; and now they asked fit power to improve the quality of the education. Was it likely that a system which had built up schools sufficient for the education of the people should be now wanting in the eetality of the education ? He did not think that the trade lord was very in genuous when he said that he could not under stand why any dissenter should refuse to sup port this plan because it would educate and endow persons connected with the Church of England. It was not because members of the Church of England received money that they objected: it was because the dissenters themselves could not, in accordance with their own prin ciple., receive money for the education of their schools in their own religion. That was the re won why they objected. Great advantages would be confrihutid to the Church of England schools , . and the nonconformist schools would labour under great disadvantage*. The hon. gentleman, the mem ber for Edinburgh, did not speak with very great courtesy of the dissenters and nonconformists. He heard him speak of the braying at Exeter-Hall, and last night he spoke fre• lineally of the clamour that was raised out of doors. (Cheers ) It was a very old story fur gentlemen in office to say, that any opposition made out of doors against their plans won clamour ; but he would ask, whether it was likely that 500 men from all pare of the country would come to London, and take the trouble that they had door in opposition to thin plan, notwithstanding all the obloquy that had been heaped on them, if they did not believe teat there was some thing in the minutes which was injurious to them ; 11.111 i he thought that the right hon. gentleman was the last person who ought to say that this was only the clamour of an un reasonable elms of persons. He said that the noncon formists were abandoning the principles which were fill. lowed by their leaders, and alluded to the doctrines of Penn, Washington, and Jefferson, and to what the Mato of Massachussets hail done. But he would like to ask whether there was any analogy between the two countries ? lied the state of Massachussets any state church ? Let them give them, if they pleased, the same state of things as existed in the United States and the state of Massachumem —let them she them freedom from the trammels of a state ' church—let them make it popular if they ail!, and discon nect it with the state, and then they would find that the nonconf irmeos would be as harmonious on the sues] et as the various seen. in America were. When he heard them accused of netting a clamour he, an one of them, begged to say that he objected to the g verament mixing hold of the fends of the country to endow the teachers of any sect, or to endow the teachers of all. He thought that one wait as bad 21 the other, though one was more politically unjust than the other. They objected to receive the funds them 'elves, and they found these minutes of the privy council to he contrary to their principles. The government wised to endow a system of education by which young persons should be trained in certain religious tenets. In the church schools there were 9,000 or 10,000 children who were to have the catechism taught to them, and the holy scriptures and liturgy read to them. The whole of ties was to be dose under the cognizance of the clergymen of the parish, and the inspectors to be appointed by the government, were to be siso clergymen. The minutes did not say so, but by • compact entered into between the government and the eerie seismical authorities, the latter would have the appointment of the inspectors, and they had suds power over the govern ment, that if they did not like the inspector they could deo oharge hire. lie admitted that this was only to be the cam in Church of England schools. (Ironical cheers and laughter.; The government would not dare to propose such a plan for the dissenting schools, which wore not quire so humiliated as the church schools. because they could not carry it out. But if they could carry it oar, the dissenting schools would not be free from intmee boa and examination by the clergy of the established church, because by the comp act entered into by the govern ment the inspectors would be all eleritymiin of teat church. He maintained that these clergymen were prone to meddle with everything. They could examine the children, litter fere with the teachers' bookie and could intent c riiticetes; and he did not believe thst the clergy of that church were not zealous enough to use all the means in their power to iefhtence the children who attended these sehnols. If there was anything wanted to show that this measure was one which would he advanteg. pus to the church of England, they had only to lo at the triumphant manner in which the proposition was received by the clergy of that church. There never yet was a measure passed against the nonconformists at which they did not exult. • The lady would nut be found favourable to this plan, for it would place too much power in the hands of the clergy, and there was nothin a more hosti e to public liberty and the progress of the country than giving to the priesthood any sorb power over the people ; they bad power enough by the hulas and the terrors of religion, and if they added to it bi legislative en,ctmeats, thee would the niece tend to degrade the people who wets subject to their influence. Atwitter point which he alluded to was, the argument in I of the impartiality of the scheme umil by the r ght lion geed.- man the member for Edinburgh. If he 1 mked rev, r the minutes already made, he would find the Let of 149,0001. basing been during . the last three years disiribut ill he rh privy enuncil committee, and out of that thelolll of 141,0007. was received by the church. (Hear.) The die.enteis it may he said could have the money if they ask it for it, bus they did not separate from the establide'd church that they should come whining fur money to support their religious establishment. The nonconformist principle wee this, that the government had no right to d. vote tit., public flitadt to the purpows of religion. (Hem, hea...) The right hon. gent'. m.o . ' spoke of the impArtisiltte of the principle. but he w .uld like to AA whether of the principle tit* et d twintt on. - tenth of the pnpul 'Jinn with money 'or e lueution wt re two reed, hoer it would be received? It would be juot as impartial where no state church existed, as it was in this coentry. The (get was, that the dissenters refused to take this money. It was very clear that any non conformist who took the smallest portion of it for the purpose.* of his own religion. could never afterwards complain of the domination and usurpation of the established church. That was a point which the noble lord and the right bon. gentleman did not look to. Here the government were holding out large temptations to the dissenters to abandon their principles, swift they did not succeed in inducing them to do so, the established ceurch would have • great advan tsge, which would be unjust and unfair towards the noncon formist body. The noble lord who lets ceded him spoke of the manner in which the Roman catholic* had been treated. Now he would ask the Secretary for the Home Department If he would answer this question? Had tfat committee of privy . conned communicated with any of the authorities or dignitaries of the Roman catholic chesrch with respect to the lospeeturs or examiners of these public schools ? He feared &et, if they hod, it followed of course that when the utinutea were laid on the table it was the intention of her Majesty's government to make grants to Roman catholic seltools. There would be something noble and bold in their owning forward to offer these advantages to all classes of the people. (Cll. rs.) He had, on a former occasion, heard members of that house attack dissenters for their bigotry towards the Roman catholic population. The dissenters seceded to whatever they asked, and they never denied them their civil rights; for the Roman catholic members would not have their seats in that house that moment Au.. for the efforts which the dissenters made for obtaining It :milt catholic emaaeipation. Every member of the united kingdom ough, to he thankful to them fir having been in strumental in obtaining BO liberal a system of government. His opinion was that, when tir.t the minutes were laid on the table, the government int. nded to open these grants to persons of all religious persuasions. The whole thing was concocted, and it was supposed that the dissenters would take tlee measure without asking • question, but then the Weal. yare. proposed to join the dissenters against it, and it was then feared. Tue government then entered into sego. tiations with the former, and they were supposed to be under the delusion that the Roman catholic* would not be in fluenced by this grant. This, perhaps, was in accordance with the m ixim which lowed that the next pleasure to cheating was that of being cheated. He would again repeat that the noncontor.nista denied the right of government to bestow, and refused to receive their offer. They offered them that which win of no value to them, and the church, being less scrupulous, received it. He wished t impress* upon the house that this was not the period when the apple of diecotl should he thrown into their political ar. na—at a time when they should be employed wi h ques tions of far more vital imptalAnce which the ablest statesmen of Europe could nut solve. (Hear, hear.) He trusted th .t if he used any expressions against the church which might be considered warm, the house would remember that from the commencement he avowed himself to be a member of a neeconformist body ; and that his (mei ahem languished in prison under the direction of that establishment which they were now asked to sg eghraunndhiee.,hanichd thheati wa s t was fresh f e res h l a i b i i n t , h d is t ki th ud e little bt„n within the last two year* stripped of its furniture to pay the f m re e q m ue o i r a i fin th g a , salary of the Church of England clergyman of that parish. It was impossible for him, looking back to the history of that church. and rotting that it had been hostile at all times to the progress of public liberty, not to protest in the strongest mariner potently. against the outrage now about to be perpetrated by the government on the nonconformists of this country, in adding to the aggrandisement of a political and mischievous institution, which he expected to see this country some day rid itself of. (Cheers.) Sir f. GREY said that nobody could regret more than he did that the elements of angry discussion should have been introduced into the present debate; but, notwithstand ing the difference of opinion entertained by different bodies and different individuals on this question--notwithsrending the difficulties which had to be met in dealing with this subject, he joined in the satudaction which now seemed coati timely to be felt in hearing no more of those fears and ap prehensions which, at • former period of the history of this country, were entertained and expressed as to the dangers to be apprehended from as extension of knowledge and the means of i..atruction among the lower classes of the people. No fears, he was happy to find. now prevailed, that the in stitutions of the country would be endangered by the adop tion of the widest engine of popular instruction. (Hear.) The hon. member who had just spoken had contended that it was not the duty of the government of this country to educate the people—he had argued that this was a matter which ought to be left to voluntary exertions, and he had sahmitteo as a fact that none of the greatest.stateemen of this country had ever attempted such an object. lie (Sir G. Grey) feared the hon. member was not as well read in the modern history of his country as he ought to be. (Hear, mad a laugh.) It the hon. member would look back even for the very few years that be had been in parliament, he would find that this was not the first occasion upon which great statesmen had endeavoured to lend their aid to effect the removal of popular ignorance and to raise in its stead sound knowledge, effected by the general education of the people. This effort was made forty years ago by one whose memory, on more grounds than one, he (Sir G. Grey) must ever hold most dear—he alluded to the late Mr. Whitbread —(hear, hear) —who, in reference to parochial schools, lenient by the aid of public money, to lay the foundation of an improved system of popular education. The bill he intro duced for that objet received the hearty support of another distinguished and not lees celebrated meenb r 1 this house in those days—he meant the late Sir Samuel Romilly. (Hear, hear.) The measure so introduced and supported was paned by this house in opposition to sues arguments as those to which be had already adverted, but which h toed) , were now no longer heard; but unfortunately the bill wee lost in the other house, owing to the prevalence of thuae apprehensions which happily had a ter wholly vanished. (Hear, hear.) If the elements of discord had entered into the present debate, of a certainty the govern ment were not answerable for it. (Hear, near.) Those elements condeted of assertions made out of the house, but echo d within its walla by one hon. gentleman (Mr. I'. Dunconthe) last night, anu of which the hon. member for Durham (Mr. Bright) was this evening the open, manly, and avowed advocate. (Hear, hear) The hen. and learned member for Bath (Mr. Roebuck) had amused his (Sir G Grey's) right bon. friend the member for Edinburgh (Mr. Mac iulay) with wasting his talcum in arguing a matter upon which, as the hon. and learned member said, all were agreed—namely, the duty of the government to educate the people. To-night the hon. member for Cocker raeuth (Mr. Aglionhy) had made toe same admission, and no doubt seemed to be entertained upon the point until the bon, member fur Durham (Mr. Bright) declared that it was inconsistent with the principles of the nonconformist. that they should accept money from the state for educa tional purposes. The hon. ma tuber said that he was him self a nenconformist, because he would not receive or parti cipate in public money voted for public instruction. If the hon, member urged these an the principles which actuate the nonconformist, he (Sir G. Grey) must request the hon. member to read again the history of hit country before he pretended to enlighten the British parliament upon the sub ject. (Hear, hear.) If the principles advanced by the honourable member were those of the nonconformists of 1847, what had been the principles of the must distinguished of the nonconformists of former days of men whose names were identified with E gliab history, whose liven and sufferings were Was and parcel of the cause which they had espoused ? Was the hon. member aware that Baxter, Oliver, Heywood, and other eminent leaden of the nonconformists were in favor of public endowments? and that it was notorious they entertained no objection to participate in grants of public money for the purposes of education, but that it was the act of uniformity which had intervened and had inflicted on the church injuries from which she had scarcely yet reco vered? (heer, bear.) The hon. member for Nottingham ( Ur. Gieburne), alluding to the speech of his right hon friend the member for Edinburgh, seemed to think he hod estab bliothed a reds do ad absurdum, inasmuch to the reasoning of the right non. gentleman mieh• as the hon. member con tended, he applied as well to the Church establishment as to general education. H (Sir George Grey), could not think it was a reductio ad absurdum if the duty of the govern ment to educate the people was admitted. In America it had been *hewn by his right honourable friend that separate grants had been made for educational purnoses. Therefore, with respect to the duty of a government to edu cate the people, the hon. mender for Durham was in error, and moil he spoke it was diffi ult to discover any tangible ground of opposition to this measure. But apart from hie speech, what had the hon. member done to-night? He hod presented a petition, to which he attached the greats et weight, because he believed it represented the opinion which actuated the principal opponents of the measure. The peti tion was before Into, and it emanated from a conference be tween more than 500 gentleant n assembled at Crosby-hall, in the city of London, on tne 14th of the premed month of April, and it stated " that in the judgment of this confe rence, the unsatisfactory i sue of the efforts which succee viva governnsenta had made to extend their patron age of public eduction, mast be held to demon *trate the impossibility of their d lag so with either henefit or osfety, and to afford decisive practical evidence in support of a principle obit+ has already found strenuous advocates, cud which this conference now avows—namely, that it is not within the province of government to educate the people." Such was the petition. and thouth the hon. member aere m' n m ot "i ttelflmeisat-nritlnykavfamtrn'elhinisthoewpen pre , d sti p l r l e i - f they aerated hr (Sir G. Grey) would advise him to take one or two of a series of reeolutioe• tooled at a meeting h Id in St. George-street Chapel, Liverpool, over which Dr. Baffles had presided. The Not of these reso'setions was to the effect that voluntary effort. went sufficient to supply all the educa tional wattle; and the next aleclanel that the meeting re model the Mu rbreect of thegoeernment with the education of the people as wholly unneemsery, as wrong in prin ciple, at variance with :sound policy. and calculated —in the present excited 1 , 14 tr of parties —to produce serious evils; and, therefore, the meeting could not but consider that the stem taken in that direction by the legisla ture were in error, and ought to he corrected." Now, with reelect to this second rrs Intl ea, though he oelieved it to he uretecato try to argue a question which was jitenersely con cod. al it, th:a hotter, he must express his conviction that on a question of such magnitude no the sound education of the people, the government ought not to stand aloof. It wan edinfted that the moral and intellectual improvement of the people was the loot preventative of crime • and with that ad- Inioion, coupled with the declaration 0 a most celebrated noncenfertni•t, Ito art Ilall, in favour of the education of the people, he co.itendrd that the of of the government might to Its till ,luleavour, without int. rfering with the rights of console ice, to devise, to foster, and to encourage the means. best e slculeted to promote an end so pregnant with the best interest. of the ton r ry On this point the hon. member fur Nottingham h id admitted the novelty of his Tires. Ile I not st dol that the g .vernm• tat ball no right to .11111.0.1. that Ithere would lie ouy groat otjectiam t tom de of 'mole' money f• or the autp..t , of ...loeciti no. 'ruin wee true. I. anakiee ot the preoeut pardansent, as now constituted, what grounds ha I the government for supposing that sum% • grant would be objected to. In February, 1843, Lord Aehley moved ad &Mises to the crown, to take into considereemn the best means of devising and securing to the people the bit mimes of • mural and religious education. That moron WAS ?receded by an able speech from the noble lord, in which, by flume roue ptaistics, he showed the deficiency of the existing m e ans of education ; and loundid, by the terms of his minion, as iaference that it was the duty of the government to ded with the evil. Hew had that motion is, n me'? 'fbe neer hon. baronet opposite (Sir R. Peel) then at the head of the government, met it by expressing his corded concurrence in its general object, sad toe noble led now at the head of attar; (bird J. 'tuna) sp tk- in similar sense. The motiun was uusnirnously adopted by the !mum. The hoa. member for Durham was not a men*r at the time, or if he had ne wool I have stood alone ; and if I division had taken place, it would not have been poeihle to have found two tellers. Since tee hen. member had been returned, another motion of a similar character, thuueh con fined to the principality of Wales, had been brough t fe reee d iv the boo. member for Coventry (Mr. W. Williems), and that proposition had received the sanction of the house ; re d the hon. member for Durham, though a aunconfornest, had not ohj, cted to it. He (Sir G. eery) did not wish to multiply authorities on this question, but he mast mention that of R obi Hall, who had described the parochial schools o' Sc Seed As the source of the superior character, energy, and deposition of tLe people of that couriers, and who aided that it aced could enter into the head of any men to met ep away those school., because they were iecunsistent with the ltherti. s and independence of the population. He avocet elm quote from the Leeds Mercury, of the 18th March, 184:3, a leading ern: de in favouruf factory education, and suggesting the ate. blisbment by the government of two schools is large meuutacturing town, and on the principle of the notion.' schools ; and the other in those of the B itch sm.! For. ign Schools Society—an article which would not he presumed have been inserted in that journal except with the apprein e tion of the ablest of the opponents of the government on this subject—he meant Mr. E. Baines, Jun. (Hear, her, The hon. member had shod d to the cane of th e f ree c e ureh of Scotland, but if he quoted that church as opposed to government grants for education he was totally mis. taken and ignorant as to the view, of that church on this subject. Could it be doubted that education of the people was loudly denauded.— If we looked not only to Leeds but to Wesetuieser, and nearer at home, a most lamentable want of education would be found. Every day hrought to light new testes of ignn. ranee and vice on the partial Slum woo e ited hurley he held respoasiele lor their crimes. inasmuch as their m ids were not formed on the only principle which could he a true pre servative treat crime. He (Sir G. Grey) thought he might assume that education was a good, and that it w e a suhjed with which the government was b ittnil to co .erna The noble lord (Lord Merpeth) had sail that Mere were three courses •open to the government, but he thought there were only two. lie del nut believe it would be possible for any government to propose that the education of the people ghoul.' be platted entirely in the hands of the established church ; the two eeursts then open to the government were, the course pr posed by the hon. aad learned member fur Batb, and the COWIIP that had been adopted. The one was to estaulish entirely • new system of education, disregarding the divainns in the coun try upon matters of religion, d sregerding the echoed, estate blashed in connection with dilll rent denominations, and en deavuuring to bring all the children together into one system of education, by which they could grew up in harmony, peace, and good will. Such a plan would he impreeieehlc ; it would meet with no cordial acceptance by eny one denomination of christians, or by that hou.e. He agreed with the honourable member for Nottingham, that the earnest religious feeling of the people of this coun try would oppose an absolute but to cemb tied educat on, be cause it could only be effected by the exclusion of all re. ligion. (Hear, hear.) He knew that all did not intend to exclude religion from their imbeds, but thought it might be introduced through different religious teachers ; such a pro. position would nut, however, have diminished one iota of the opposition. (Hear, hear.) Then, what was the other plan proposed and acted on by the government The principle on which the measure, it he might so tents it, was framed, was not to establish soy new system, but to improve the present schools—the government proposed to rose the character of the education that is given iu existing eehoole and improve the position of, and raise the standard of se quiremeet in, the ectesolino-ters. What had been done during the last few years. since parliament hail moved to grant m .ney for the purposes of education ? These grants had been applied for the peptise of building 'wheels in cou flexion with the various denominations, and that b. ing the case, the government thought it time to consider h th- chi , ratter and quality of education might h- raised in there schools without endeavouring to supereede the existing agent at work in any of them. Tne hon, member for N•vitiebem had said that the plan proposed to direct and centred education, but, on the contrary, it propoesd only to exist the voluntary education of the people. It might he more 41e. simile to see greater union among diffetent classes of reli gionist,; but he thought they would . Ins beginning at the wrong end, if, while they sass the preiudice of the pe they waited until it was removed. The better way of de tainting more conformity of feeling would he to educate the people first, and trust to the results for the removal of what they might please to term prejudice. The question to be asked was, what was the best thing to be done und. r exist ing circumstances. (Hear, hear.) His noble friend had stated that he did not propose it as a eerfeet ma sure; but he said it was part of the ext. nded oysters going on in the country—the government was feeling its way. It it had been presented as a perfect plan, he (Sir IL Grey) should hove been unable to defend it; but under all the circumstances of the country, and looking bock to the differences of feeling on the subject, he th tight it seta the only plan that could be proposed at present. And what were t e objections urged to it? One was , that the c dechisen and liturgy would be enforced by law ; he, however, denied it. The government had merely taken the exiting ached' as they were and they merely propeeed to infuse. life and energy into them, leave)); the instruction giveu in them untouched. The noble member fir Liverpool had said he was anxious to see a less rigid enrorce ment of the catechism in the church schools, the national schools, and he (Sir G. Grey) believed that in misty of them the goo d sense of the clergy induced them to refrain from teaching the church catechism to the children of dissenters. A letter which be had yesterday received from a clergyman in the north, living in an extensive parish near the border, stated that such was his practice in reference to the children of presbyterians. It had also been timed against the measure that the inspectors who were to insp. et dissent, ing schools mast be approved of by the Archbishop; but such a statement was utterly absurd and inconceiv able. It was further alleged that it would destroy the numerous educational establishments. fie would only notice such an objection by saying that the object was, on the contrary, to encourage those educational establishments, and to give to some of them in a declining st ate new life and vigour. (Rear, hear.) A pamphlet written by a gentleness long connected with the British and For. ign School Soc'ety, in his individual capacity, and who had had the experience .if many years in the case of education in conned in with the dissenting bodies stated that the assistance which the government plan would afford to the schools weuld be productive of the grestest benefits to tee commu nity, tending to the improvement of elementary educ lion, and facilitating all subsequent endeavours for to edvencement. He also said that the measure in no de ree favoured the established church and that the whole measure would he, even in rural districts, f rourable to protestant noncon tormists rather than otherwise. (Hear, hear.) As to the extension of government influence, he would pees that over for it had been justly ridiculed in that house, and he toped they should hear such statement to more out of ie. Vs had next been objected that the terms offered to the church were more desirable than to dissenters—it had been said with reference to plat granta, that the greaterportine or them had gone into the hand, of the church, and he was inc.:fitted to think that muck of the objection made to the continuance of this system arose from this result. Nothing could be sill as to the impartiality of the system on which the ratite were administered, but the members of the churh greatly . xe• edei the d.ssenters and it must follow that the application foe schools would be gr , ater from the church than from dimes. ices. (Hear, hear.) In addition to this there but been is many instances an objection on the part of dissenters to re ceive them grants. Upon the subject of the R nnan cadea lies, he was bound to admit, and he did it with great sin cerity, that there was just ground of complaint. (Hear, hear) He admitted there were parts of chi: country—fie instance, the town of Manchester—in which there were • vast number of Roman catholic., and in which, by law, tht children were compelled to go to school as a condition of fact ry labour, and it was a hardship of which they hid a right to complain that they were excluded fn** the grants for education. After twit); li•tened with talesman) to the speech of his noble friend behind him, his desire to remove t rose objections was strengthened ; but it was not a difficulty seining from those mlnutts—there use no more money voted this year than lase. The esthetics were not excluded by name; and he did not kno• of more than one district from which an application had been malt for a grant to a Raman catholic school. It was certainly a rule that there should be the daily use of the ecripturm i 2 the schools, and although there seemed to be a daub[ whether it was to be the authorised version or not, he was sure the committee of council who proposed the minute ie. tended that it should be the authorised veision; rod either of the committees of council hail, without corning t e a r parliament and announcing their intention, put nny constructi to on the terms used, they would hove bra liable to the imputation which had been thrown upon the present government, namely, that they had acted without a uthority. There was, therefore, to new grievance against the Rower wholes. Ile (Sir ill, Grey) however rejoiced 'that the see' ject had been brought before the house, and he had ad heard any one member assert that the Raman esthetics should be excluded front the benefit of the grant. But a government must always defer to public fedi g in • gre at degree. There were many persons in this country w ho le led with apprehension at measures which were in favour of It 'man catholies, and r. girded with apprehension any extension of their principles; and he conlmsed he was him self not free from them. Still he would nut be a petty to. unfair treatment of any body of persons, however he migh t differ from them. (Hear, hear.) If the house vot ed (pante for educatien, he thought that the Rest* catholies should participate in them,—(h. ar)—no one lordd more rejoice than he should to see the difficu ti. s which wed in the way of their participating in them remov ed, end he would ch. erfulty co-operate with his noble friend in framer minutes which would enable them so to partieipate where!f! they ware collected in such large numbers as to come wire!in the special eircumetences originally intended to he met by the government. Ile had nut touched on the derail• of the measure, for so little had been said in opposition to thee; so little had been mid except as to the imperfection of _T e tt Alen, an to its not going far ehougn, and its tot being a fi l ineestire, that he wooed not be justified in occule tee ibe hon. members who had made objections to it, or who * time of the house in replying to the obserestioes of these" I