The Express. — London, England, 1847-03-06 00:00:00

eke authority to whom he looked ; the cOmmtinication be tween the two pieces was exceedingly slow ; and an smog 4.0 the superior authority in England was attended with I rear's delay. One of the great difficulties In any gold syL tern of puni s hme n t, was that of finding proper agents to carry it into operation ; he meant more especially subordi nate agen. The efficiency of a prison in this country de pended, so their lordships knew, almost as much upon the of rior agents as upon the governor ; without good overseers a was impossible for the . best governor to wry into effect a good system of discipline. In Van Diernea's Lend the difficulty of obtaining trustworthy agents was intioitely greater than in this country ; and in Norfolk Island it had been rester still. In the first place, until lately, every kind of labour woe so highly remunerated in these colonies that a salary, which in this country would secure the services of • first-rate person in his rank of life in Van Diemen's Land or New South Wake would do no such thing; and hi. noble friend (Lord Stanley) was aware that formerly it frequently happened that the government clerks and officer* were tempted away by superior offers. Then. again, in a small colony like Van Diemen'. Land, where party spirit and divisions ran very high, it was extremely difficult to get officers who, however free from them at first, did not, in time, become implicated in local dieputes. The governor had by no means the same authority that existed at home. He could only suspend au officer. That power was exercised with great hesitation, and a ith considotable difficulty ; and, as it was always liable to be reversed by the decision of the bieretary of State, an officer was hardly ever suspended, utiles. upon a very clear case of misconduct. If en officer dial, the difficulty of -filling up bi + place was alimot insuperable ; It frequently required a reference home and the sending out of another person, involving • twelvemonth's delay, and in the mean time the greatest inc mveuience was suffered. As regarded Norfolk Island, very few such men as they would like to employ would consent to live in such a place, cut off, as they must be, (ram almost all civilised society, and having nobody to associate with except • few officers in the same service, and the criminal of whom they lied the c , arge. He helieved it was hardly possible that any man, however estimable he might have been at first, could be subjected to such entire exclusion from civilised a ciety without his moral qua lities suffering from the atmosphere in which he was placed. This was most important consideration, and he beli red that the reason why it was so much more easy to obtain proper odieers iii this country, wee, that they were not ex cluded from social intere.arse with men who were neither employed in the convict ...mice nor yet tainted with crime. Now, these considerations had led her Majesty's government to the conclusion that, by thv abolition of the system of as signment, the really penal part of tmnspottatim came to be neither more nor lean than forced labour and imprisuoneent, and that this change having taken place, if these were to be the main elements of punishment, such punishment could bo far more safely and effectually indicted at home than at a distance. Here there would be a close superintendence of the practical working of the system, a power of im mediately checking soy abuses which might arise, of immediately replacing any officer who was found inefficient, and correcting any errors which might have been committed in drawing up the regulations under which the prison discipline was introduced; in fact, all those advan uges which he had shown to be altogether wanting in the colonies would be enjoyed to the fullest extent at home. Bush, aeeordingly, was the determination to which the go vernment had come. Continuing to look upon penal labour and imprisonment as the main elements of punishment, it was proposed that they should be carried into effect here. It was intended that no efforts should be spared to • reader that description of punishment as effec tual as possible, both for the purpose of deterring offenders from crime, end for that of reforming those who had fallen into mime. With this view it was proposed that the criminal sentenced to transportation should undergo, for a period longer or shorter according to the nature of his crime, what was called separate oonhnement; that no cri minal whatever who had been sentenced to transportation should escape some portion of that species of confinement The experience of the loot three or four years was meet smarm-tory as to the effects of separate confinement • it moo proved to be most effectual, both in deterring offenders awl in reforming those who were capable of reformation. (Hem, hear.) Bet at the same time he was bound to say that that was a punishment which required to be carried into effect with great eaution—(hear, hear)—and which ought under no circumstances to be prolonged beyond a comparatively short period. He the refore proposed that, while every pre eater should be subji eted to separate confinement, none should be so for any longer term than eighteen months; that that should be the very longest term for offences of the gravest kind : and for minor offences, for instance, offences for which a sentence of seven years was passed, the period would generally be more limited. With proper e pre on the part of the medical officers, and while the governor of the prison watched the effect in par timer cases, be believed that eight , en months would be sufficiently safe. That be believed was the opinion of the oonsmissioners of Pentonville Prison; and be understood that Mr. Brodie and Dr. Ferguson, while they earnestly protested against the extension of separate confine ment beyond eighteen menthe, were of opinion that that period, provided in individual cases the health of the prisoner were carefully watched, would not be too long. It was clear, however, that if separate confinement were to be restricted to the term he had mentioned, the man who bad been guilty of a very heinous offence should not be dis charged immediately : for example , in an aggravated case of manslaughter, where the jury had hesitated whether they should find • verdict of manslaughter or murder, and had only been swayed by some nice point in the prisoner's favour, and where the result had been transportation for life, in such a ease separate confinement for eighteen months would be a most inadequate punishment. It was therefore proposed, that, besides a period of separate confinement, every offender when discharged from Pen toaville or any other prison should undergo a further period of punishment by labour on public works. He was aware that there was a strong impression that that was a punishment liable to great objection. It was a punishment which had been fully carried into effect on board the hulks, and to which, objections, and, he felt bound to say, as it was formerlyadministered, very just objections., were entertained. But the objections in the case of the hulks rather applied to the manner in which the punishment was inflicted than to the nature of the punishment itself. He did not believe that penal labour, and convicts being allowed to associate together necessarily produced evils like those to which he referred. Formerly the labour of con. vies at the hulks was the result of coercion ; the fear of the lash was almost the only motive held out. The accommo dation also on board the hulks was very inefficient ; the number of officers and superiutendents was very much leas than it ought to have been ; the wader and religious instruc tion was very inadequate; the whole system, in short, required great alteration. But of late years much im provement had been ell ceted, and he believe* that improvement might be carried still further. The government proposed that convicts should be employed on public works, under a system by which they hoped the evils which generally arose from the association together of large masses of convict., would, to • great extent, be avoided. In the first place, they thought it would greatly contribute to that end, that every , prisoner had undergone a preliminary and preparatory period of separate confinement. He believed that, except in the case of some of the most obdurate, an impression would be made during the period of separate confinement which would greatly facilitate the esetintananee of a proper system of discipline subsequently; and thtoe who mimonducted themselves when employed on public works wield always be liable to he sent back, for a longer er sissgeriod, according to the gravity of the offence, to the confinement from which they had been released. But be looked to moat was an ireprevement in the =pesystem under which the work was carried on. Their were, no doubt, sears that within the last few yeses, a plea had been proposed by Capt. Maconochie, white bed attracted considerable attention. That plan, as Ivied under the inventor's own superintendence in Ire land. we far from being successful • end although Copt. Mostmochie alleged that he had hid difficulties to saseisise which would account for the failure, yet he wee bead to ery that, on looking at the whole history of the m =itend considering the opinion which bad been y penors who had had the greatest experience is the menagersent of convicts, he was impressed with the °m oieties that the plan would not work satisfactorily. At the tame time, be thought there was much in Captain Meeemechie's plan that was worthy of attention. I am. at his suggestions were highly valuable, and he be beamed *Antoci* was in itself sound and good. That =le believed to be, that the convicts employed on pub shield have a direct interest in their own good ommtest, set only as regarded the abridgment of the Le whisk they were sentenced, but as regarded more Imr dials advemerges. That principle he believed to be masa- Melly seed, and it had been already tried with great advan tage with respect to the convicts in Bermuda and Gibraltar. The lacer in those places was performed by task-work, se that the convicts had en interest in the magma et latent they performed, and the work dims in those places was of great value. list ontg did it pay for the whole cost of their mainteneme emlespee intendenoe, but left the convicts thematdvse a esesiimates weal gain. O tear years, the avenge phi meths son- ' wide so 'employed wee 421., being more them In a ystr, alter ' paybg the eat otassintsasnos and supsvieinsimes. (Hear, kw.) This iimwed the advantage of a spa= th is kind is proneetiag the benefit of convict; semlitettgit be laid acme es a rule that where the ramble Meet wtively cm is labour, the system of dildfibe 01110, was mend. the value of the work done we mill, es in Van Diermea's Land, there the discipline meeld ri t i oland lax and inellkient. (Hear , her . LHitherto tie et a man's mimes was not made nd a" 'mg le was "01. 7" 01 1= as albr--- -116 induce:is =ilmChet this wm we of Capri lEfroasellays othish might kw alerted. low It vene to ambit :raes lima the hoe= aosemin k ikes mose earn at the - fast mist; bathe thsegla Set i ssr e ct i = = ghis to be edepapi, mei Ihet *me he • (Seen Use.) A optima et Mt mode, ft worked eml lemird inte What, eenbibate to esehm il l= of this demlption ettromely easel& es a punkin's& He had met stated what the of employmeet apes the works we, peeled of temp mummus lama: well, sed mho did ad lasts fruit we p rk s Il aid r esa 6 10/1• 1 2/4 ikum bill Nllllra s bUt igim inatat half the paled for Alb he wee emenmed. Time, it a nme ere t • weayere trampurtatton, and it he see islet limit wall eniff wee kedestrioos, he might slight lb Abater at a pitied at these years and ashalt or bar yews from the emesemeoseme et kb penishaessfr In anisi Vedifa vde resei Mete ea the ettrunsperbelee,b= jectimeitie Sett it mewl vtitheeteemetese peneethe sibuntegit_ wee thie—thet ammt hi sheresterlilesesdby telegeenvistelead pmnelrd fm mt mese, Mimi sR the mews to eepleyon dosed against him in this costal. wigs- the psried et iNos sestesee expired, however reformed ha shightE fissislt desirous of becoming a useful sissibsr . Is the intense competition for employment mild alt Is this couivry he was detested, his charmers meeting Mos as every attempt, atil he believed it was Drees this COMM that many persons who had been punished, and desired to amend, had been again led into criminal courses. (Hear, hear.) But in the colonies labour was in such demand that a man, however criminal, had no difficulty in finding employment; and he might there restore himself to a respectable condition of life. That was one redeeming point in the old system of transpor tation. There were several instances of persons in New South Wiles and Van Diemen's Land, who, having obtained tickets of leave, had become honest and industrious, and accumulated large fortunes. In one respect this was carried to an extent which was injurious, because he remembered on one occasion seeing a letter fromi a convict, which stated, " You remember so and so, who was transported ; he keeps a gig, and is a thriving gentleman." (Laughter.) A letter of that kind was not calculated to make trans portation a formidable punishment. But it was an advantage to criminals that they should be placed in a situation where they would have an opportunity of raising themselves in life. They therefore proposed that the crimioals, in the latter portion of their punishment on the public works, should be allowed wages nearly to the full value of their labour. The greater part of the means thus earned, instead of being given to them, would be allowed to accumulate, so that at the expiration of their sentence they might have the means of emigrating ; and following up the system in force in the colonies, it was proposed that the men who earned the means of paying ti,eir own eialgriktion expenses shoal,: receite a con ditional pardon—the condition being that they should not remain in England. Having received this conditional pardon, they might go to Australia, where they would be free men to all intents and purposes except that they could not return to this country. which, he 'believed, they would not themselves wish to do. In the same manner it was proposed to give a conditioi al pardon to offenders at the termination of their employment on the public works in this country. He was eneouriged . to hope that this system would be attended with beneficial results with regard to the exiles from Pentonville. The mound respecting those who had bees sent to Port Philip were of a satisfactory kind. They were less aatistactory with respect to those who had been sent to Van Diemen's Land, on account of the unsatisfactory state of things which existed there when they arrived, there being considerable difficulty in finding employment there. By the last returns. thero were no less than 3,000 persons in the hiring gangs for whom no employment could be found. , When these persons were subject to a punishment not only of a reformatory kind; butof a kind which would teach them those branches of industry which were of most value to the colonies, be had no doubt when they arrived in Australia that they would be welcome to the inhabitants, particularly when they had their families with them, for it was not pro pssed that they should go without their families. With respect to the exiles from Pentonville, it was found impos sible to allow the families to go with them, without making the punishment nugatory. But that objection would aot apply in the present case, where the convicts would be kept at work for a long period, and would have to pay the ex pellees of the passage. He attached great importance to the circumstance of the families going out with them ' because to go on with a system which would keep up the frightful inequality of the sexes which existed in Australia, would, he thought, be inexcusable on the part of parliament. (Hear, hear.) But not only would the discipline be reformatory, but the offenders would receive an industrial and intellec tual education: each person would be taught how to read and write, and to know his responsibility to his Creator. He would also be instructed in some p.rticular trade which was likely to be of use in the colo nisi. In this way they would prepare a clam of convicts whose going to the colonies would not, he was _persuaded, be attended with any disadvantage whatsoever. This would be still more the WC if they were not ' as convicts on their arrival, and he thought there woo d be no difficulty in making arrangements by which the convicts going out in an emigrant vessel would be undistinguished from others on board. Of course, in many cases it would be known that they were convicts, but if their general conduct u a class was such as he trusted it would be, the prejudices against them on that account would soon be got over. At the pre sent moment, public meetings were held in Port Philip in favour of a larger number of exiles being sent out. It wu of importance that it should be clearly understood that this emigration was not to be considered a part of the punishment which the offender wee to undergo, hut was intended as a security to society, lest they should relapse into crime, and also for their own advantage; sod therefore those convicts whose future good conduct might be depended upon would be relieved from the necessity of emigration, and their sentence would be complete when they passed from the public works on which they were employed. He bad now to point out the mode by which it was intended to carry this stem at e reto were /foL In ... the preset year i t w available n by whic h i ev aa ery lated %convict sentenced to transportation could be made to undergo the preliminary period of separate prison confinement. The Pentonville, Parkhurst, Millbank, and county prisons, would be su ffi cient for this purpose. There would be no difficulty in carrying out this part of the sentence with respect to con victs senteneed in Great Britain. In Ireland he was sorry to say this was not at present the case. But no time would be lost inisuilding a prison in that country similarto the Pentonville one, so that he hoped they would soon have accommodation in that country for separate convict discipline also. With regard to the employment when they passed out of separate confinement, examination had been made into the available means at the disposal of the government and the probable demands upon these means. His right hon. friend, the Secretary of State for the, Home Depar tm ent, was of opi nion that no serious difficulty would arise on this point. It would be necessary, at first, to make use of the hulks; but in doing so everything would be done to improve the system on board the hulks, and every precaution taken for the maintenance of discipline. He admitted that the hulks were, after all, a bad system, and was of opinion that prisons on shore should be substituted. (Hear, hear.) Preparations for this purpose were in progress, and wooden buildings would be erected. The Duke of WELLINGTON. Why not iron (Laughter.) Earl GREY mid, the reason was, that, upon making in , quiriee, they found that wood was better and, cheaper. The large works at Portland would afford the means of employ ment to many convicts, and in all probability it would be adopted as a permanent convict establishment, for which it possessed many advantages. They could also be employed upon harbours of refuge. and upon the fortifications, which he was aware the noble duke was anxious to see carried for ward with speed. It was calculated that the labour of these convicts would be fully equal to the cost of their main tenance and superintendence, and every other charge. Such were the measures which he propelled to adopt with regard to male adult convicts. With regard to female convicts, it ' was intended for the present that they should continue to be sent to Van Diemen's Laud, for the improvement of the condition of the convicts of which place considerable pains had been taken. (Hear.) With regard to the class of juve nile offenders, some considerable modifications of the system which he had described would be neessvy, but be felt it would be inexpedient to enter upon that subject now, as it would be brought under their consideration at an early period. Having now stated the grounds on which her Majesty's go- vernment thought that a change of policy with respect to male adult convicts ought to be adopted, he begged leave, without further observation, to propose the second reading of the bill (Hear, hear.) Lord BROUGHAM said that nothing could be more satisfectory to him than to express his approval of the bill, and( of the clear, distinct, and candid statement of his noble friend. (Hear, hear.) He would not enter into the subject at all further than to sato the doubt which arose in his mind in to the espedi eney of abolishing deportation altogether as a peniehment. In 1833, his much lamented and revered friend and colleague, the noble earl's father, agreed with him in approving of the opinions that had been put forward ea this subject in a pam phlet of Arehhishop Whateley's, esesgt ea regarded trans portation, whisk dew were unwilling te give up in all cases. Although it co& Wilma to be ramrod to, he was of opinion that there we as slosh go is nriskstiss it se 'punishment. (Hear, hoar.) His oblestiso to slopertitha in a staple punishoost, was, that it woo unholy sod insurably une qual la id Nowt of a puablionsat, insonnsis ors to ass per son it soislit moor this gran* poishoosi nod to death, to saran a Indian °WO of tenor; mimeos, to a third ,porsen, so pohlonsO at all. (Hear.) Novertholso mi t (27 8 ;:t think k ought to be shoo np al so a ponibniot. Tho• with tepid to MOW l e agreed . with those who held the op se :i r sa th at _ pookhosom et death night, in to be sporisly foillotod, but yet he weld not give it up on a none of deterring from crime. He proishoonttransportation might be 111.1 1sr ths tho . prior maks of life who ip it in the FOAM plisithsent next to death. Oran mohlhotoos, who woos _suilty of fraud, might be sablerAsi to HO poithoon. The receivers ctf stolen goods, who sailed on their detestable trade, and with whoa the law and the obsinistolom of the law were in osollist, is whisk he ash hand the Otter we. riolo toeing, night be salgost to i s t. se =z4llds wo fowled lots posse= ce et so small rosoulses is paid of who hod a arida stoilios sod "Mr"' pas h 664/147. sod Is than a soatoon of emporiums kw Nib or kr hatless pun would be the greatest of poddrosots. Thar ollhodsrs were the pabulum, thereat and maws of all the eementitted by Wens. (Her ham) Ho hadVrra: doubts respeadsi the node of ijortotio. It no said this was est to be onsidsrod a put the prodshook, and that do sonviols &mkt he soot O so emigrant ship, sad their r - kept onosalsd. B. thought his noble friend was nowise the thin mem tee woorolostrod, if he expected that tab nth' to kept seastakd, spodelly as they were to have *sir OEMs' with this, mho indeed, their mouths Inn Mb* illopprd. (A kingh.) Ho thosplet the consequence would bo, thi a line of operation Weal ho drawn woo the lob of the vessel kr the two alone d e*granta. Ho sold ost onosive it poolhis SO la tho yam 1647 they wen to now the penal pasiimint at the Mask law— dist s t brainasna—which arm la the dam a flit Gorge lassissosta, ono of ths old Matinsl writais, was &moral sood iminnens kr soh he described it to be ; and he said sany...6o Mans a sans at whisk two card play. ft, .. to whisk asaviar Wan sent right, in Yalu% - nrier — aar rhea= be am shorn Hr. flanison, ass off the Jaime willies en the sallast, alma inedbai it as ea Zealnailarat, wide bra rag rasa nesnisa as urbosholoa. As soon so Os pima r an In this =was nor, dm ossolot woo to sr Me. rt It was Is be no pen al ire pnalthrent, sirmigh ft was le be sesepolory. Dee," the melee wield lay, "if has part of the Onnrooft, I went go." "Oh " the ant would rspO, "but you oast" " man,- the reloindsr itould be, "it in part of Os puthismont." The sinks sari mid it was Gel, to peeving Ids limning again Why, no t arscarts would equally may W th e panihront of death. THE EXPRESS, SATURDA' Bat it appeared the convicts were to go where they pleased; and perhaps, tht refwv, they would prefer going to the nearest piece —Calais; but whet was to prevent their toMing back .again ? the Liverpool man would return to London and tie London man to Liver pool. He should like so see a cargo of convicts landed at Calais; what would the 'French poli.o say to such an impor tation when they ware told that they were highway robbers I and pickpockets, and other felons from England? But then, ' again, there was the advantage of recipe-city—they might mud all their rogues to us, and that, by toe way, would not be very likely to increase the entente cordial . (A laugh.) The only case of punishment of a similar character was that enacted by one of the six acts, the pawing of which his noble and learned friend opposite (Lord Denman) and himself (then in the other house) had vainly endeavoured to pre vent. The banishment there was for political or blasphemous libels, and persons guilty of such °Cocas the French would not have so great an objection to; but it was never once put in force, and, in fact, there was no instance of prosecution for a second offence of the kind. He approved of that part of the noble earl's statement which referred to the improve ment of prison discipline. He hoped there would soon be an addition to the number of gaols, and that each would be provided with industrial employment, either in the garden, the field, or the workshop; and to ta k of the expense attending such an improvement was moestrous and absurd. The abolition of transportation would put at their disposal 600,0001. a year in the conveyance uf comic's, betides the expense of the penal colony itself. He was glad to hear the account which the noble earl had given of Gibraltar, namely, that ten t r twelve pounds a year was the clear gain of • convict's labour. It was the greatest encour igement to ex tend the system, and make all confinement in prison subject to the exereige of similar industry. (Hear, hear.) Lord STANLEY said there were but few of their lord ships who were not more competent to address their lordthips' house on the subject before them than himself, yet he might find some excuse for doing so from his recent connexion with the Colonial-office, and the interest which he had always felt on the subject. He thought the government, in contem plating the existing evils, were adopting too summary and hasty a measure, by altogether departing from a system which, he would admit, had beeen suoject to considerable abuse. He regretted that the present was the last opportunity on which parliament could interfere; for al though it was competent by the exercise of the royal prero gative, and the practice of the judges of the land, that sen tences of imprisonment should be substituted for transport ation, yet, it did appear to him, when the object was not to affect individual cases but to adopt • general system of a very doub tfal character as to its results, that it should be the subject of en act of parliament, most carefully and deliberately li considered. He entertained great doubt es to the policy or prudence of abrogating altogether the punishment of tran sportation—sot only looking at it as a punishment to deter others from crime, but also pa a means of reforming the cri minals themselves. In the fint instance, he believed that traasputation for long periods was • punishment most dreaded by culprits, who would look upon shorter terms of trar.sportation or imprisonment with comparative indiffer ence. He also thought it was a punishment capable of being worked most efficiently for the purpose of reformation. lie feared there had been too hasty a condemnation by the com mittee who inquired into the subject of the system of the assignment of convicts in 1831. As the noble earl had said, much depended on the caprice and character of the indivi dual master to whom the convict might be assigned. In the cases of some masters, it might be a heavy punishment, whilst with others, it would be but trifling, and, with some, no punishment at all. Yet his (Lori Stanley's) conviction wee, that after a period of penal labour in the colonies, the system of assignment was generally beneficial ; it brought tconvicts into combination with men of integrity and character; it introduced them again to private life, which was calculated to p•odui e the most signal advantages to the character and disposition of the permos subjected to that punishment. He thought, again, that • hasty step was taken in 1840, when her Majesty's government announced that transportation to the colony of New South Wales was for ever to case. He considered they had sacrificed a great advantage in giving up for the purposes of transportation a continent almost as large as Europe—and more or less settled—to all parts of which they might disperse the vast maw of contamination and crime, which it was necessary for the safety and welfare of this country should be poured out from our shores, and which the noble earl admitted must lse sent away, although in a different manner. He did not deny the great incon venience resulting from the great extent of transportation, all of which was directed to Van Diemen's Land. At the period at which the system of probation gangs was intro. duced by the noble lord now at the head of the government, there was every reason to believe that as the convicts came out from the probation gang they would be absorbed in the population ; but unfortunately that period was coincident with the sudden collapse of the prosperity of Van Die men's Land, which reduced persons who would have been employers of labour to a state in which they could not employ that labour. Nothing could be more unfortunate than the period when the system of probation gangs was applied ; and yet, under all the dioadeantsgee, it had acted beneficially. He did not mean to say that in the papers oi bcre their lordships there were not recitals of great hor rors, but that was not the general character of the sys'em of transportation; on the contrary, it was confined to two or three localities of the probation gang and in the absence of proper superintendence and watchful s, nems—in fact, the most ordinary precautions appeared to have been most incon• crivably neglected, and the state of things described was such as to render it hardly a matter of astonishment that such consequences should have arisen. But, he would ask their lordships to look at the picture drawn in the papers before them of the character of the convict population of Van Diemen's Land. There had been a misinterpretation of the in- InientionsofgoVernmentwith regard to theciinditional pardons. It was intended that the governor should have the power of issuing pardons in all the colonies iu Van Diemen's Land, so that the men might be diffused over the whole continent, without a violation of the engagement that the government would send no more convicts there. As to the degrees of punishment—the preliminary discipline—he believed the noble earl and himself agreed. (" Hear, hear," from Earl Grey.) The in. &Won of severe punishment at first, and successive stages of greater er less restraint, until gradually, by good conduct, the convict should emerge among the free and uncontami nated population, was a subject upon which the noble earl I and himself agr eed; but the question wee, in what !manner I could the preliminary punishment and discipline be best carried out ? It appeared to the government that the object would be best accomplished by the preliminary punishment Wring place in this country, and that transportation in name only should follow. He thought the difficulty of finding severe penal employment at homawould be greater than in a penal colony. The maximum term of imprisonment would be eighteen, and the minimum ail, months. Now, he did not think that due distinction would be made either in the minds of the convicts or the public, as to the nature of the offence or severity of the punishment, when to all trans portable offences the principle of short imprisonment was applied, followed by food and good wages, and ultimately succeeded by emigration with their wives and families. He believed such a punishment would cease to be a terror to evil doers —(" Hear, hear," from Lord Den man)—but, on the other hand, would rather be a something desirable to be obtained. (Hear, hear, hear.) He admitted that the question of expense was a matter of minor consideration. The expense amounted to about 200.0001. or 300,0001., per annum, a sum which was looked upon with comparative indifference by this country. The first application of the first step of this plan was one of great difficulty, The number of the adult male population now sentenced annually to transportation (and he did not think that the noble earl contemplated diminishing that number) amounted to not much more than 4000 persona. Nowthey would have to begin by finding accommodation for that number in the prisms of Pentonville and Parkhurst. In every year 4000 on an average would have to be provided for. Five years would be the average period of time in which they would be em ployed on public works. Then, setting aside the calculation of casualties and mortality, they would, at the end of that time, have 20,000 male adult convicts, nut for one year or five years, employed on public penal works in England. He would venture to say that a system so revolting to the feel ings of the people of this country would most saturedly break down, as it would seriously interfere with the demand for labour, and throw the whole government employ. , ment into the hands of this convict population, who would labour on these public works well fed, and well kept, ' and with the further promise, that at the expiration of their sentence they would be sent as free labourers to some of the colonies. Such a system would operate as a grow injustice on the bonnt, industrious, and unconvicted portion of the population. 'They now had hundreds of thosasads begging for that free labour which they were going to confer on con victs. (Hear, hear.) It may be truly said that emigration would form no portion of the sentence of the convict, because after he had gone through the penalty, he would then be played in a situation in which many of his industrious and honest fellow-countrymen were trying to be placed; a situa tion in which, through motives of economy, the government now refused to place them. Looking further into the qua teen be thought that they should have some little feeling as to the presence of convicts in this country, that is, assum i ng that they were not to be sent to France or any other country, but that after the period of their sentence, they were to have the mesas of emigrating with themselves and families, and to be compelled to emigrate. To whom, then, wee the choice of a locality to be left ? Was it to be left to the convicts themselves? and were they then to be free men under no surveillance, uncontrolled, and restored to society ? His noble friend must not, in that case, so far deceive himself as to think that they would not be well known as *ankle wherever they went to. He could not send them in triplets, in entsabins of 3 000 or 4,000 at a time, without every ensigns* ship well knowing that it carried with it a con siderable portion of convicts ; if it were not known, they would he prestising a fraud on the hoe* persons going out with them, and if it were known, there would be a separa tion between the hosed emigrants and the convicts in the emigrant alp, mil awe would be a marked disinsdee—eo much so mist the egindeal would be leaked upon es a sea- Met seed war is tins fsbilment of his palliasse. He Ter collected tint when he was Colonial ilesrelsey he made an experiment by essilling est a Hutted umber •of Pentonvllle and Parkhurst primers to some of the cabanies, and it was with the greatest &Musky that they were got to Karst M the shr of sheet se of them. It was the wo o s 'yew rested yeedtle semplabit, sad petitions were seat frees every Mlle esker, fedi praying that it may not be sellestel le the etwlembelies'et babe made a convict oohs,. Tlsy bet *..mere os Now South Wales amid be no a assvict missy, and he wished to ask damsdidthey th at they would be keeping faith with the askew when they sedistituted lir the present sys tems hapsieement bee WWI din Nerlbik Island or et Van Lita4:l 6 l , :t swpitslies of that time the melookfm7 • of 4060 or MINI emlis to the wee askew / Stay astiai emir pram* /ILO= 0 16 7 would lane ememelreases fr omevery early. The edge esti dfd est lea limn' when Obey mat to seat thee ass. fG, MARCH 6, 1847. nets, Bat if the menet , were left to their own option, they rd did they think that either place would be satietied at would be only too glad to be sea: to Canada and New York ; beim made the receptacle of convicted criminals ? It may be well for them to say that they would allow the eonvicu them to go, and then they imagined that foreign countries but they did more, they camp, Bed go to these colonica; would be deluded into the belief that this we, not a virtual renewal of the system of ttansportation. (Hear.) In the expense than would be incurred by a due preliminary step they would involve themselves in far grater adminis tration of proper euperintending officers in the colonies. He must say that it would be far more advantageous to limit, if they pleased, the extent of transportation, by nut applying it indiecriminately, and above all by, not applying it in cues of juvenile offenders, as was hitherto the practice, and making imprisonment a more frequent sentence. If they made transportation more infrequent, and sent out of the country a diminished number of convicts, and insti tuted a more efficient corps of officers who could controul and superintend the discipline of the convicts, and were capable of giving them in their differert calling+ useful, profi , able and laborious employment in the colonies, they would not in that cue interfioe with the demand for private individual labour, because individual free labour was not in the market. The noble lord concluded by expressing a hope that nn final or immediab!e step would be taken with out the p ifliament and the country having a full opportunity of expressing their opinion as to the details and the probable working of this system which her Majesty's government intended to introduce, and which must seroualy affect the redid and moral state of this country. (Hear, hear.) Lord DENMAN, who at times spoke quite inaudibly, said that the breaking up of the establishment at Norfolk Island was a step wh-ch he extremely rejoiced at, and he was glad to know that transportation to that colony would be for a time suspended. When, however, he heard that the terror of transportation was intended to be withdrawn altogether from the minds of criminals, be must own that he retarded that expression of opinion with the very greatest dismay. He believed that the population of this country were not either stupid, or foolish, or sinning, because they did not receive proper instruction, but because there were certain classes of them linked together in crime. Were criminals then to be told that whatever crimes they have committed, they were not to be transported ? Such a decla ration would be calculated to create considerable alarm, as there would be no security against crime. He did nut be lieve that transportation was without the greatest ter rine. He could state, from his own experience, that there were, and he believed that they had ill of them seen examples of the terrors of transportation, ' which were so overwhelming, that no person could witness them without being struck, and that no per son pausing on the verge of crime could behold without being deurred from its commis ion. One effect of trans portation which they lost sight of was, that it removed per sons, influential either by their talents, or wealth, or habits, from clime whom they were employing in, and daily in structing in, the commission of crime. The reeeiver of stolen goods was, for instance, a man of respectability as far as general appearances went ; he paid his tradesmen, and had great influence, and was a very great benefactor, perhaps, in the place in which he resided, but he was, nevertheless, a normal teacher to a school of convicts. He was convicted and sentenced to transportation ; and was it no tenor to him to be told, that from that moment he was no longer • subject of England, except for the purpose of punishment, end that he hag no longer an opportunity of corrupting those whom he had been corrupting, and that he was going to a place where he could commit no further crime, and one rapt no furthercriminals? He apprehended that no greater benefit could be conferred on society than the removal of that man from the sphere in society in which he had done so much mischief. Instead of that, what was the punishment now to be inflicted on such a man ? The noble lord who hut just spoken had pointed out the infinite multiplication of criminals which would in this country result from this system. He spoke of the difficulty of enforcing penal labour, and it was his (Lord Denman's) opinion that it would be accompanied with the greatest evils to society, when he took into consideration what wee known of Marseilles and other places which were made t h e receptacles of convicts, where crimes were com mitted of the blackest dye, and where the feelings which the convicts entertained towa rds their keepers were none but those of hatred. The criminal was under this system told, that if he committed a crime he would be imprisoned for a period not exceeding eighteen maths. The prisoner had every hope of obtaining a favour able report of his conduct, and from his expertness be knew that the worst criminals were the best behaved in prison. If they persuaded the chaplain that they became extremely moral and religious, the period of their incarcera tion would be shortened. To a young person that period was not very formidable, and he had the opportunity after wards of obtaining some property, and becoming a proprietor of land in a foreign country, where he would become a mem ber of soci ty without that sense of disgrace which he ought to entertain. The terrors of transportation had a great effect on a criminal, and be also had a great chance at the end of his period of punishment of being restored to society by the demand for labour in those distant regions. The circumstances which took place in Van Diemen's Land and Norfolk Island were the result not only of mismanagement on the part of the officers but also from the position in which the prisiners were placed. He was frequently deterred from paring the sentence of transportation from his knewledge of the state in which the convicts would be placed. The noble lord had pointed out to them how there would be a compulsory trans portation to a place where there may be a demand for la bour. They well knew that convicts would choose that oolong which was nearest to their own country. There was another ease which he wished to put forward when a man was sen tenced to death, that sentence wu frequently commuted ; and a compromise was then entered into with the culprit, in which it was provided that if he did not consent to be trans ported he should be executed. But in this case the com promise provided, that if the criminal did not submit to be imprisoned for a certain period in this country, and to work after that period, he should be transported. Here then they had the difficulty of transportation thrown on their hands again. He would now take the opportunity of stating that he held in hie hand a petition for the entire abolition of capital punishment, and expressing his belief that the public mind was running very strongly in that direction. The noble lord con cluded by recommending the government to recon sider the matter, and to see whether it would not be more advisable to take steps to diminish the extent of transporta tion than to confine themselves solely to this system. (Hear.) The Duke of RICHMOND was of opinion that great danger would arise in this country if criminals were to be told that from this moment transportation was to cease. Earl GREY, in reply, said he thought a few words of explanation were necessary, in consequence of what had fallen front some noble lords. The noble duke opposite, and his noble and learned friend behind him (Lord Denman) had expersed an opinion that such • change as was now proposed ought not to be carried into effect without an act of parliament. Undoubtedly, an act would ultimately be absolutely necessary; but by the existing powers eon (erred upon the crown, the ,punithment of transportatioa could be commuted to Imprisonment for a certain period. The late government had come to the conclusion that trans In answer to Dr. BOwg/NO, portation must, of necessity, be suspended for two years ; Mr. M. GIBSON stated that the only new regulation with and they had thought it best to make the alteration in the reference to quarantine that had been made, was the ex way now proposed. The present government had adopted emption from quarantine of ships from Turkey, laden with the fame conclusion ; and as the law as it stood gave them non-enumerated goods, provided with clean bills of health, power to introduce this system, and u, for some time, at all and all the crew and pamettgen of which are free from sus events, it must be more or less experimental, it would be picion in a sanitory point ofview. introduced in that manner; and no application would be DRAIN &GB (IRELAND). made to parliament for an alteration of the law, until it was Mr. P. SCROPE asked whether there would be any found bow the change practically operated. For the pre- objection to the production of farther returns ss to the ex sent, therefore, sentences of transportation would continue pease of drainage in Ireland ? to be passed, precisely as they were now ; and as Mr. LABOUCHERE said he had no doubt that the re a very large number of the convicts so sentenced turn would he given. at present, were not sent to Australia, but to Gibraltar, ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. Bermuda, the hulks, Pentonville, or Millbank, this would On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, continue to be the case, only to • larger extent. For a long it was ordered that the house at its rising adjourn to Mon period, prior to 1843, when the noble lord opposite (Stanley) day next, made an alteration, prisoners sentenced only to seven years' PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND.) transportation bad not been transported ; his noble and Mr. BOUVERIE said, that seeing in the Dublin Gazette learned friend (Lord Denman) who had passed the son- proclamations for sixteen asseeement sseriens, which he tenses might not be aware of it, but such was the feet. The presumed to be with reference to public works, and an sentence, though nominally one of transportation, did not Act having teased to provide a substitute for public works, mean transportation, but confinement in the hulks for seven he wished to ask whether these proclamations were sane years; and they were discharged at the end of four years, in tioned by the government ? the case of gnod conduct. That had been the practice for a Mr. LABOUCHERE would remind the hon. gentlemen long time, till in 1843, his noble friend had commenced the that the act he referred to bad only bean pawed a week. practice offending abroad a great number of convicts. There was every desire on the part of the government to re- Lord STANLEY.—It was in my time. duos and extinguish the system of public works in Ireland Earl GREY mid that all those measures were concerted as soon as pound,. between the two departments, the home and the colonial ; Mr. HUME asked, had any orders been sent to this effect and no doubt this had been done In that way. Hereafter, to the government in Ireland ? should the system of transportation be practically end per- Mr. LABOUCHERE replied that most distinct instruc manently abolished, that ought to be done by the • term dons had been forwarded to the government in Ireland on authority of parliament; but the change now proposed was the subject. experimental; and, while that experiment was in SUNDAY TRAVELLING. it would be highly disadvantageous to alter the nomi nal son- On the motion of Mr. SPOONBR, the petition presented tence, when the law, as it stood, gave the full power of by him on the 4th inst. from York, against the compulsory carrying this meanies into effect. The new gover running of trains on railways on th e Sabbath, was or d ere d nor of Van Diemen's Land, and every one with to be printed with the votes. whom he (Earl Grey) had convened on the PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND). subject, aoreed that, for two years it would be impossible to Mr. EWART wished to l earn f rom the right hon. the send convicts to Van Diemen's 'Auld. A noble lord had ex- Secretary for Ireland, whether the public works in that pressed his belief that, in a short time, there would be an country had to yet been suspended. accumulation of about 20,000 convicts, and that penal labour Mr. LABOLCHERE said that the works were being would fail them. That calculation might not be very re- stopped as speedily u possible, consistently with the sub. mote from the truth; but it was no _part of the present absence of the people. scheme to reduce the transportation to Bermuda, Gibraltar, POOR RATES (IRELAND). and other places. Government would do what they could Lord DUNCAN called the attention of the Secretary of to improve the system there ; but convicts would continue State for the Home Department to a letter which had ap to be sent as before. But this large number of peered from Mr. Otway, a clergyman in Mayo. Mr. Otway convicts must be confined to penal labour some- stated that two-thirds of the rate due is the Castleber where or other ; and the question was, whether Union was payable by solvent parties ; •and farther, that the were the facilities for this labour greater at home, rates had been refund to be streak, In the to that govern where there was abundance of wealth, and where the con- mes s wou ld m a ke advances. He wi s h e d to know whether victs would be under the immediate eye and control of the government meat le mate mimosa en the rate, and ales government,—or in Van Diemen's where it was almost whether any attempts were to be made to recover tke rates impossible to exercise an efficient ? If the now due. inherent abuses belonging to the mires of melgoassut were Sir G. GREY said that the poor-law commissioner' had properly looked into, no man would ash be seek a detestable issued explicit order that all defaulters should be summarily system to be re-established. Like every system of slavery, dealt with. The milemen tbreeelsout the country had been it was not some injurious to the convict than to the master directed to Tequila immediate psgmmt to whom be was assigned. (Hear.) In the majority of Mr. B. ESCOTY wee to know whether Lord cases, it had the seine effect upon the mutual relations Lucan bad as yet paid his rates, end if be had net, whether between muter and servant, as the system of slavery he sought to be earned ea the sews of poverty? (A laugh.) had had in our own colonies; and the evidence brought Sir 0. GREY nil be bed wrienteed that lord Loma before the committee, over which Sir William Moleeworth believed that he had se led tight to pay th e rata He bed had presided, had convincingly shown that the system was no doubt that whale tie noble lard had amertalned his ?kr most degrading and demoalising Penal labour, in some bllity he would pay them. place or other, was the only puniahment that we had to THE CANTEEN SYSTEM. rely upon ; for transportation was neither more nor less Col. LINDSAY woe, puissant to notice, to mine that than penal labour in the colonies, instead of in England. an humble address be preeeneal M bee Maiesturtipeas is ing that But it was said that transportation had such horrors that, she will be grasksalst Ideneed aims - to — . e g o Rif were abolished, society would be no longer safe • aad the ales diet tin preens wwwee• omega woe th e allumon had bees made to the cue of a receiver of stolen way; ant wbelber M geoid wet be giwgsf cis db. goods. He would mention another cue, also of a receiver ciplfies &Mind Oboe e Weeps, of stolen goods, perhaps the greatest receiver of stolen goods to mow the of bre= In c an t o ,,,,itki n in this country, who had made Immense wealth. the possimate or goolwity of the beemedui. He said that This man was sentenced to be transported; and the prom. motion gets wee beegbt with moral' he found no difficulty in evading the law so fir as to 'preserve his wealth, and to transmit it to New South Wales. He bribed some one there to apply for him as ea assigned servant ; he was maligned 114xordingly ; and he lived as well, and was as rich, and carried on as great • trade In stolen goody, in Sydney, as he had done in London. Lord STANLEY—But that could not be done now. Earl GREY said that, under the existing ej stem, men sentenced to fourteen years' transportation were sent to Bermuda, and there put to penal labour; at the end of eight years, if their conduct was good, they obtained a con ditional pardon, and might go to Mexico, the United States, China, or any place except England. Under the system, the convicts, instead of going direct for Berm uda, would go to Pentonville, there to be placed under meat strict and severe discipline for 18 months; they would then he put on public works in this country, and be subject to the same regulations as in Van Diemen's Land, with this only difference, that here abuses might be Imme diately exposed and corrected, while there, two or three years might elapse before the facts were known, and nearly • year before a remedy could be applied. At the end of eight years, the convicts, if they had conducted themselves well, would receive their conditional pardon here, and would then be sent to Van Diemen's Land, where they would be precisely in the same situation as if they had under gone their penal labour in that colony. It would not be denied that, in a new and comparatively unoccupied country, a wider field existed for their labour ; and advan tage would be taken of this by sending the convicts there on receiving their conditional pardon. Such a state of things as bad existed in Van Diemen's Land and Norfolk Island for the last six or seven years, could not have existed six months in this country, without public opinion being de clared against it, and • reform forced upon government. Hence the great advantage of the proposed change. But it had been said by the noble and learned lord (Denman) that the free people of this country could not bear the sight of the infliction of penal labour among them. If there was any . truth in this remark, how much more unjust was it to inflict this spectacle upon the small commu nity of Van Diemen's L-rid, The period had arrived when we must extend tke institutions under which Englishmen everywhere wished to live, to the Australian colonies; and he trusted that in the course of this cession he should propose a measure for carrying those views into effect. He was persuaded that the time had mom. when the admit/um of representative government must be granted to Australia; and, when it had given the colony thole advantages, would the legislature dare to soy that penal labour, which could not be inflicted at home, should be inflicted there ? It was impossible. To insist upon maintaining transportation to Van Diemen's Land would be to drive away the free colonists at whatever pecuniary sacrifice to them selves to take refuge in South Australia, New South Wales, or some of the neighbouring colonies; Van Die men's Land would become what Norfolk Island was, a vast horde of criminals, 20,000 or 30,000 in number, with no. thing but their keepers—no society of free men to watch over the conduct of the officers ; and thus every abuse that had prevailed in Norfolk Island would break out in that colony. The noble duke opposite had spoken of the horrors of transportation ' as cutting off the convicts from all com munication with their relatives ; but in the case of hardened criminals, it was not likely that such feelings would operate; the professional criminal had few family ties which be regarded. But, if the system of separa tion were enforced at home, for certain periods, it was not improper that the el irainih should be deprived of those advantages ; and this might be done as effectually in Pen tonville, or the island of Portland, as in Van Dieman's Land or Norfolk Island. His own opinion was, that the wisest and best system was to limit the intercourse with rela tives, but to allow it within certain bounds. Formerly, it had been the practice to send out to the colony the wives and families of the " ticket-of-leave men;" this was a mast judicious system, which it was proposed to re-establish. fears bad been expressed by the noble lord (Stanley) that, under the proposed system, there would not be such great facility for distributing the convicts over the Australian colo nice ; but, in this respect, the system would possess equal advantages with the one now abolished, the convicts being still sent to Van Dieman's Land, at the end of their penal labour. In Port Philip great anxiety had been expressed to have some of these convicts sent there, provided they were of good character, and had acquired habits of industry. A similar demand was made at the Cape of Good Hope : so that there would be no difficulty in obtaining employment for the convicts abroad. As to the want of prison room at home, so strongly insisted on by the noble duke the di ffi culty was not near so great as that of continuing the prevent system. Arrangements bad also been recently made, by which • considerable :limber would be received in the island of Portland. For these reasons, he thought the change would be advantageous; and he would again observe that, before it was made permanent, parliameut would be asked to pass a law for that purpose. Lord DENMAN repeated his objection, that an octet par liament would be necessary, in the first instance, before adopting the proposed change. He doubted the power of government to commute the sentence of transportation in the way proposed ; any more than they could change the sen tence of death to transportation. Earl GREY said, that tiro court' objected to by his noble and learned friend was precisely the course now pursued. An Act of Parliament gave express power to send convicts sentenced to transportation either to Bermudas, Parkhurst, the bulks, or Pentonville ; the only alteration now proposed was. that they should all be sent to Pentonville. In answer to a question from the Marquis &SALTS/WILT, Esti GREY said, he understood that the number of con victs in the present year would not be so great but that they might be disposed of without difficulty. The house adjourned at half-past nine o'clock. FIRST ROUSE OF COMMONS.—FRIDAY, MARCH 5. The Bramtaa toot the chair at four o'clock. Tikco?ip - - 11;an — aalTie;age --- Clianakal more Company 'Net and Thearr k.,Cambrl.rtge, St. Neot'a, and Bedford Junction Railway ; East Linerrildre (Clitheroe, Mitton, and Psalm) Brad y); Edinburgh and Nortbern Railway Cit. Andrew's and Ziwirtmegh Barbour, Dmalass, and Bad Crowing% Newport Railway Ealiminn) ; Oran Kordieric Railway (Branch to llorncestie and at Raylhadlioww, Linda) ; London imil North Western Railway (Lhaestroot, !Wks Boa ion, &c.) ; London and North Wain isilwary alscas sod Wolver hampton Branch, U.); Nosiondin and Bernie Lawry (nmillng tonand Percy Main, and aid Ohm Ormalkas ; Taw Vak Railway and Dock; York and amadis DNB and Ra il way, and Great North aflisgWACkaiman, End BrtLMA Junction Railway. Lame, and Pomba*i Nwasulla and ilarwYk Railway (Cramlington and Paw Ilia mil 1:1111awwwlk awl Mbar branches) ; York and Neaten*, Railway (Awl Desk awl way and Great North of England, Clarenna, wid Zarespad honcho Railway lame and purchase Bala REPORT.—Birmingham District Fire Isanwlas Camay BBL PUBLIC BURNIE& FIWIT READlNG.—lnearimos as Livia d 1 arlLasaßilk. THIRD REAI2!NO._ . -Psal NIL NOTICE OP MOTlON.—eras 0. Bre Town, on Monday next, to moot it realm ben lber dolt= and &poky daimon of Spank& ilowild .in e i ter twelnteree of the berebeitaikinkies frisk as erf newt to a We cd upwards at meaty Mewl to be doe wbcdy to Bridal edeeste. and physical mischief to the soldier. The system was, to let the canteens for terms of three m 2% 1 by tender, and the highest bidder, of course, wet selected. The successful bidder then sought to reim burse himself by exorbitant charges for everything f m ,„` Milled to the soldier. Bread, cheese, and spirits were both. dear and bad, but the officers would bike no steps to re duce the price of the former, as they said that the mare• there was paid for bread and cheese, the less would be left for spirits. His object in bringing forward the motion was. to have the sole of spirits altosether excluded from the tan. teen. (Hear.) The facility with which spirits were at present obtained led to the greatest excesses, and cum quently to the heaviest punishments among the soldiers. The motion having been put, • Mr. F MAULS would not attempt to defend the pre , sent system as to barrack c interns, but the remedy propceed by the resolution of the hon. and gallant member could not very easily be carried out by a (Bennet vote of the House of Commons. It would, however, be pleasing to the hon. and gallant member to learn—and he hoped it would induce him to withdraw his motion—that the attention of the authorities had been already drawn to this subject, and that they were at this moment considering h or they could place the can. teens on an improved footing, so as to form a part of that, general amelioration in the condition of the soldier, which both the authorities at the Horse Guards and the govern ment had seriously at heart. ( Hear, hear.) It must not be forgotten, however, that canteens though attended with con siderable inconveniences when put to improper uses, were of great advantage to the soldier in barracks. There were many articles to be obtained in them which the soldier re quired, and which it might be often most objectionable to permit him to go outside for. And, with regard to the sale of spirits, the canteen was always so entirely under the con trol of the commanding officer, that if he exerted his autho rity with common vigilance, the majority of the abuses to which the hon. and gallant member had referred might be avoided. - - . . . Sir H. DOUGLAS was glad to hear that the government had determined to place the canteen system on a better footing. Mr. GOULBURN hoped, after the gratifying statement of the Secretary-at-War, that the hon. and gallant officer would withdraw his motion. He concurred with his hon. and gallant friend as to the injurious effect of the very lag system under which these canteens were now r. panted. Col. ANSON was convinced if any means could be pointed out of ameliorating the condition of the soldier, by improving the canteens, government would give their beet attention is furtherance of that object. Sir DE L. EVANS remarked that if the commanding officers had such authority over canteens, they did not ap pear to know it, or there must be acme difficulty in excrete mg it. The Earl of ARUNDEL and Mr. WORTLEY thanked the gallant colonel for bringing the subject under the atten tion of the house. Motion by leave withdrawn. TILLAGE OF LAND IN IRELAND. _ On the order of the day for going into a committee of sutrtly.:, O'CONNELL rose, pursuant to notice, to draw the attention of the house to the advisability of employing the labouring population now engag. d on the public works in Ireland, in the tillage of land. According to the last weekly amount, there were 700,000 persons so employed. For that, the government were entitled to the best thanks of evilly humane person ; but the question wee whether it would not be better to turn the labour than expended to the cultivation of the land, which was being neglected to a serious extent in many parts of Ireland. Considering the well-grounded ea ticipation of an unexampled scarcity in every country in Europe; looking to the statement of the Agricultural Gazette, that it was • great mistake to suppose . that there remained in the hands of farmers or food mer chante any considerable quantity of corn; seeing. too, that Professor Lindley strongly urges in the Gardener's Chro nicle that there is no time to be lost in devising means for keeping up the cultivation of the two countries ; and that the grand jury of Longford and other bodies in Ireland had expremed a similar opinion,—he dad think that the govern ment would be justified in adopting that course, particularly as they could do so without establishing any new machinery, having only to apply the provisions of the Labour-rate Act to the employment of the people on the land, instead of on the public roads—to be peel ptrtly by the government, and partly by the relief committees. His suggestions to the government were these : that they should furnish seed to a much larger extent than they had announced their intention of doing, to be charged in the K) way, partly on the government finances, and partly on the county-rates ; that they should draw the people, without changing the present machinery, from t he public works to the tillage of land , and that in case of presentments that had just been made, the persons to be employed under them should be at once put to till the land. His next suggestion was that something should at once be done to make pews between the landlord and tenant, so as to WITIOVe from the tenant the excuse to which he now resorted for refusing to till the lend —namely, that it would be so much labour thrown away at a moment of great distress, for that the landlord would in that case insist upon the payment of his rent, thus absorb all the profits of cultivation, and leave the tenant as poor as he was before. His last suggestion was, that something ought and must be done to compel, by resolution or otherwise, the Irish absentee pro prietors to reside upon their estates at least for this year, and discharge those duties which they bad so long neglected. This would insure to Ireland an additional expenditure of about 3,000,0001. or more. Mr. LABOUCHEHE was not at all surprised that the hon. gentleman should avail himself of the forms of the house to bring the calamitous condition at Ireland under their notice. Upon the definite proposals which he had just made, he (Mr. Labouchere) conceived it to be the duty of the govern. ' ment to express distinctly their opinion, as doubtful and am biguous language might only lead to mi.conception. He must therefore say, he not only considered it not to he the duty of the government to act upon the suggestions of the hon. gentlemen, but that it would not be possible or practi cable to do so. The government, in their endeavour to meet the existing calamity, hod adopted a most unusual course—a courseutterly unjustifiable under any other circum stances. Following in the steps of their predecessors, thef . had employed a great body of people—a task w was altogether out of the functions of a government, and which no government could attempt to carry out without giving rise to great evils and abuses. They had since substi tuted another system for that of the public works which they considered the best calculated to meet the existing evil—a system which would enable them to supply not labour but food toa great number of destitute poor in Ireland. But the hon. gentleman asked the government to go further, end, by their direct interference, to cultivate the soil. He would frankly and candidly state that he thought it was imposaible to do so, and the attempt would only lead to failure, would have the effect of paralysing the exertions of individuals, and in the end great mischief would be done. lie thought the most frank and faureouree was to say to his hon. friend that he (Mr. Labouchere) on the part of the government positively da d ined a duty which he conceived to be beyond their func tions, and the attempt to do which would be attended with mischief. He would say the same thing with regard to the providing of need. The government could not attempt to supply grain -need, and any profession of ma a purpose on the part of the government would eely tint to cripple individual exertion. Even on the sage* of what had been done, limited as it was in eatest, geed for green crops he had received estmeolgeeniS letters from seedamen who had laid is Imp sticky sod nig • complained that it was not right that government BMW - enter into competition with them, pirticularly as large soon. tines had been accumulated in different towns in Ireland, sod which showed him what it was in the power of indi- • vidual exertion to perform as compared with anything that the government could do. With regard to the cultivation of ' the land, he admitted that it was imposeible to over-rate its importance; and he felt that every effort should be made to prepare the soil for the mailing crop. In many parte of Ire land the greatest exertions were being made by proprieties to enable their tenants to do so. He regretted, however, to say that, from information he had received, he was obliged to my that there were parts of the country where that duty was sadly neglected. He knew well the crippled media= in which many of the Irish proprietors were placed, and that it was in vain to ask them to d what was impossible. He could, therefore, only say, that be hoped that these who WIT, in a position which enabled them, would do all in their power to moist their poorer neighbours in carrying out this most important object. lie would read an extract from a report which he had received, which was an exem plification of the manner in which the checking of the public works acted in producing the cultivation of the sail. It was from Major FitsgerWil, one of the inspectors In the county of Clare, and it was for the week' cad*, Feb. 28, 1847. It mated in effect, " that for the first time he was able to report that this week tillage was proireethed., in his district. Workmen had left the roads, and were sow ing wheat and oats. In order to aid this salutary move ment, he had struck 1,200 names off the relief list this week,T o and he should get rid of more in the next." With regard to the question of absenteeism, he (Mr. Labouchere) would assure his hon. friend that he did not feel more on the sub ject than he did. No doubt there were many absent pro prietors who had done their duty to their Irish property and the people at the present crisis, but at the same time it could not be compared to the benefit which would arise frem the residence of a proprietor, who, knowing the people, and being known by them, was able greatly to encourage them by his example. He was, however, assured that many ab sentees had sadly neglect ed: their duty. He knew= inseams in which the resident proprietors had came it and devotedtheir time and money to the relief of distress, who had the mortiflostion to know that property was held in the same district by those who never came near it, and who had re fused to contribute anything to the relief of the people. He condemned this as much as any one, and he agreed with the hon. gentleman that the proper place for an Irish landlord was Ireland. (Hear.) If a tense of duty and a mind fat public opinion did not make them feel this, he feared a reso lution of the house would have little effect. The govern ment hod a measure prepared to improve the relations of landlord and tenant, and 'although he did not anticipate that it would go the length of the motion of his hon. friend the member for Kilkenny, it had not escaped attention. He had heard that in many parts of Ireland the proprietors hid voluntarily agreed to advance need for the cultivation of small holdings, the tenants giving them a lien on the nest year's crops. This, he thought, was an admirable arrangement, and he hoped would be et tensively adopted. It would be better not to meddle with this gaieties by law, but to leave it to voluntary arraesement, widget, as it was for the common interest of both oche, be hoped would be extensively adopted. He meild net egne te ale motion of his hon. friend, or think that Wgovernment Gould interfere on these questions wi th actirantave. Mr. F. NEVI said if the Board of Works had difficul ties to embed willbelbre what would they have if they bed the coning ea lie tee m s in Ireland. He believed the arum reemeniendei by the hon. gentlemen would only passim individual suction. The Same might he said With