The Express. — London, England, 1851-07-16 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY EYENING, JULY le, 1851, IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF lA/ItUS.—TCEeDAT, ;SLY IS. The Lease CnafectLion took his mat at No s'eleek. PETITIONS PRESENTED. Tea Canvas. Pat.aggs—Bthe Earl of ST. GER• MANS. teem Liakoard ; and pin of FALMOUTH, Heim end Coalmine, he removal of the Ctiystel Palate. Cossrerggtofs roe rut Cain of Goon llore.—By Lord WODEHOUSE, seer s = from the Cape, of Gond live, praying for a UNLAWFUL OATHS (IRELAN_II . ) BILL.—TURN PIK E ROADS ( nIRLAND) BILL. Three hills were tovecrelanri a Int time. REPRESENTATIVE P RESS OF SCOTLAND BILL. This bill was read • third floe T im GUNPOWDER STORES (LI L) EXEMP TION BILL. This hill, on the motion of Earl OwvILLl, wee read a second time. THE CAPE OF GOOD 'LOPE. The Earl of DERBY had received with great regret an Intimation that it was the intention of the government to oppose the motion which ho felt it his duty to MAIMIII OD their lonlehips. He was actuated by so feeling of beffilllg to the present government in =I forward this but solely by • desire to o ff er as a medium which parliament might sontkt 1111 1160011111115 Q *tasted at the Cape, and restore meet mil bisiensplithst colony. The strongest grouse kr elliptic the emcee which he proposed would be hand in a statement's' the past and present conditional the Cape eolony,_tehish ho should proceed to lay bare their heakips. The Csps of Good Hope, which use into ear pews dos by conquest, was at first nlld SID grasser &wer then by the governor, by an executive couneil," - which body afweweeis beam a "legislative Connell," into which was idled the INS aping o l a zular institutions. In the yew 111111, miss be INS Se enetary, a petition was peessied to haw popeei the mother country to confer reprmenlitie institutional the colony, to which request he hid thought it to be his duty to decline to accede, set liessee ho underva lued the benefit of colonial vc institutions in general, hot because he the form of those in stitutions suggested by the pentiosen undesirable, and also bee nine he foresaw many obstacles to their suc cessful introduction. The great difilculy standing in the way of representative institutions was the great extent and extreme distance of a large portion of the colony from the seat of goverarnenL Added to this, the means of communication within the colony were exceedingly imper fect; the population was very , much scattered, and the manner of communicating with the seat of government at times almost isnposedhle. That with regard to the distant portions of the colony, the occupation of the inhabitants, and their distance from the seat of government, would render it almost impessible to find persons able and willing to bear the expense of periodical journeys to the capital ; whilst persons living on the frontier might he required at home to protect their property, when it was necessary that they should go to Cape Town to attend to their legislative duties. 'there was also another consideration arising out of the difference of race and origin of which the population of the colony was composed ; not to mention the large number of native inhabitant., of Iluttentots, Einstees, and a number of lately emancipated ewes, there were two European populations, one British, being a small minority in number, but in activity, intelli. grneemnil wealth superior to every other population, residing principally in Cape Town and the extreme districts of the eastern portion of the colony. The remainder of the popu lation formed numerically a considerable majority; their titbits and I. hang, were in many respects different from those of toe English portion of the population. They had felt acutely Oh! alteration made by the abolition of slavery, and they were exceedingly desirous to restore a state of things which should place the newly emancipated population • under the control of their former masters. This was the state of 'home. in 1812, when he concluded a despatch which he would read to show the spirit in which he received and answered the iwtition. (The noble earl then read the passage referred to, which was to the effect that the pro roast had better be further considered and discussed to enable the responsible advisers of the crown to advise her Majesty on the subject.] That despatch was sent out in 1842, and from that period no answer was made to the difficulties which ho hail started until it was distinctly called for by the noble earl oppo site, on his assumption of office in 1816. The noble lord on that omaaion, midmorning Sir 11. l'ottinger, stated that no an.swer hail been given to that despatch, and also stated that the government entertained the strongest predi lection in favour of a representative form of government, and went on to say that on a question of this nature some difficulties must he encountered. (The noble earl proceeded to read the despatch, which in substance stated that he (Earl Grey) would not he unwilling to act on the policy which he hail advocated, of giving a representative institu tion, even though lie could not distinctly perceive how some conflicting interests could be adjusted.] He was not pre suming to s.ty that the eourse taken by the noble earl on that occasion was wise or prudent. After that declaration of the Secretary of State officially communicated to the colonies— Earl G It EY—Not officially. The Earl of DEBBY knew no more authoritative way in which the intentions end views of the go vernment could bo communicated to the gover nor. (Hear, hear.) And what was the governor to do ? Why forthwith to call on the members of the govern-' meat and persons in office there, to send in their formal answer to the difficulties which he (the Earl of Derby) hail stated, in order to enable the colonial secretary here to in tnaluee a ..tern of representative government which he rle y e ased himself to be so fund of. This despatch was sent not its 1516, and in the commencement of ISIS, not Sir 11. Puttinger, as he had thought just before, but sir Ilenry Smith, imswered that despatch by forward ing the stews which bad been entertained by hi, colonial advisers upon the subjects which had been submitted to them by the noble earl. That despatch was laid before Mr. Porter, the Attorney-Cieneral, and a must intelligent eater oil the erewti--(- hear, hoar, - from Earl Grey)—to take his opinion as to the manner in which representa tive institutions might best be introduced into the Ceps twituny. It was also submitted to Mr. Montague, the Colonial Secretary, to the collector of the customs, the Chief Justice, the two puiene judges, and others • and he' thought • better course could not have been adoited for obtaining the opinions of those moat intimately connected with the affairs id the Cape. Mr. Porter mid: After weighing the manns for a repreeentativeameahly and against it, I consider the former preponderate." Mr. Montague said: "I shall best eery.• his eseedlioicv by abstaining from the discussion of all abstract ',mewles us to representative governments, Antithetic. ntlenian said " It appears from the documents sub. saitt44l to in, that the period has arrived when a representa tive poir-niment is to he wanted to the Cape." Another said . I consoler it a bold experiment, but I hardly see how it ran be avoided." Therefore thaw ebb servants of the crown were not so much to give an opinion as to whether the colony was lit fur representative institutions, but what was the save. and most practicable way of intro ducing th it form of eavernotent ; and, ae to that, the two able gentlemen to whom he had referred entertained coo. salerable inisitivings. Mr. Porter was a man of extremely liberal opinion.. mid an advocate of free institutions ; Lind he dosed his nieniorandum by saying that the introduction of represeutative institution. was an experiment which none bat a very sully or very sanguine men could entertain without anxiety. Mr. Muutague (and he was glad to find the noble lord entertained so high an opinion of these gen tlemen) closed his memorandum by saying, 1 cannot re frain from ezpreming my doubt as to the likelihood of eli citing good government fur souse time from representative institutions. I cannot conceal from myself the feet that few communities, from their isolated condition and the habits of employment of its members, are has likely to act on the 'memos, rat and the legislature by an etiliglitened public opinion." 'f ho w. two gentlemen, therefore, had capes-seed their doubts of the success of the experiment they were MA- Inanded to undertake ; and they applied their minds with all the ability they pomessed to Moiling the mode in which the experiment might he conducted with, he would not say the greatest success but with the least amount of simmer. (Hear, hear.) It win necessary, then, to consider in whet manner it could be introduced, and the member. of the council who were coasulted were una nimously of opinion that there should be one legislature only for the whole colony, and that its sittings should be held at Cape Town. With one exception they were also unanimous that it should consist of a house of assembly and legislative council; the exception was one of the jus tices, who suggested that the principle acted on in New South Wales thould he adopted, and an elective laxly be infused into the legislative council. The rest were unani moss in agreeing that the council should be nominated by the crown. The great majority recommended that the mareof °See should be for life; but the Chief Justice wee of opinion that the elective principle should be infused into the legislative council, and another person was of opinion that ths appointments should not be fur life, but fora limited period. Upon receiving this despatch, the noble earl expreomal himself on au important point to the following effect .—" I am of opinion that the view of your self and the majority of your advisers is to form a constitu tion, to consist of a legislative council, or house of assembly, the council to be appointed by the crown ; but it will re• quire modifications. Ile censured the line of conduct Earl Ores. had adopted, in seeking to shift the responsibility from the Fiecretary of State to the privy council. The noble lord then went on to say he would not trouble their lordships by goiag through many of the recommendations and opinions of the committee of council ; but in one respect they introduad at once, on their sole responsibility, a recommendation eta character wholly novel, and which had been contras plated by those * able men at the Cape. They recommended. not that the legislative council should be nominated by the crown, but that it should be exclusively of an elective character, and for which they p.oposed a novel scheme by which the votes if the colonists might he takes. To this report of the Privy Council the noble earl not only submitted and waived his own individual opinion, but be transmitted, not the report alone, but the report accost.- pankalby the legal d o c umen t, w hi c h d ocument h a d t h e o force flaw under the authority of the document Mgt document authorised the establishment of • lloale of As- sembly and a Legislative Council, which were to be both of them elective, the President of the Council hieing the cab departure from the rule ; and it directed that the clued", Council should be called together, for the purpose of tilling up the decade of the plan, but subject to the restrictions named in the document, which wee in point of fact an eel of legislation. When this document arrived in the colony it took not only the °Seers of the awes hat the whole colony by surprise. It was the kac induction of a totally new system, and directly In oppiaition to the opinions of those who had the most es teneavo and long-eontinued local information. there were additional diScaltim at the time that Sl= =lSt teethed the Cape. The deseseat was ftewerleho he the painful necessity of saying, that, in consequence ... __ anti-convict agitation. he had had no legislative council for the space of a year or more. Such was his condition when the proposed constitution was sent out for consideration, and such was his condition now. He had, therefore, been actually driven into despotism. His lordship went on to say that increased alienation had been produced between the Cape and the east frontier, between the Dutch and the Engli-h. He remarked upon the fact that, although there' were 4,560 ratepayers entitled to vote in the election of councillors, 1,298 only had exercised their right. Cha racterising as mistaken the views taken by the ' Bar resigning councillors ' he observed that they ought to have remembe red that they sat only virtue of a precept from their governor. l id the resignation of four out of six of the • members, the council was reduced to eight and consequently was not a legal body. But the governor seeing what progress had been made thought it right to submit to the remaining .members the report of the privy council, and to ask for their sanction to a form of ordi nance. The council proceeded to take it into consideration, and they had transmitted a draft of an ordinance which might at this time have gist the authority of the crown and become law, and thereby have put an end to all the confu sion which prevailed. He did not mean to say that it might be considered perfect, but at all events there was a basis for legislation with details filled in by persons best acquainted with the affairs of the colony. 1., niter these circumstances, the governor reiterated his strong and decided opinion that in the first instance it was impassible that a legislative council could he appointed if not of an elective kind. The secretary of the governor concurred in that view, and the Attorney-General ; and he confessed for Isis own part ho was inclined reluctantly to coincide with him in thinking that, although it might have been desirable to establish, in the first instance,a nominative council; yet, after the expectations which hail been held out, it would hardly be safe to have a nominative council, and that the principle of election must be introduced. Ile mid again there was no risk and no hazard equal to the disgrace, as he considered it, of not fulfilling expecta tions which had been held out. The noble earl had strongly disapproved of the course which was pursued by the governor, and stated that he was at a loss to conceive what was the obstacle to his making new appointments, or proceeding with the remaining members, and completing the constitution. The governor's answer we% that there was no longer any legislative council in existence ; that, by the terms of the patent, there were to he not less than ten nor more than twelve, of whom not more than six should be official ; and that the Secretary of State had Men into the extraordinary error of confounding the amount sufficient for a quorum with the number sufficient for a legal !Nasty ; he went on to say that he could nut have found the means of filling up the council unless he filled it up from one portion of the community alone, and this, he said, would excite apprehension that it would revive the ill fea rs which formerly prevailed between the English and the Dutch. Ile (the Earl of Derby) thought the governor might have obviated the difficulty in which he was placed by refusing to accept the resignation of the members of the council. (" Hear, hear," from Earl Grey.) But the noble earl found fault with the governor for not going on with the diminished number. The noble earl, un receiving this answer • wrote a despatch. (The noble earl read it.) In it Earl Grey insisted upon the governor going on with the diminished number, to frame therewith the new legislature, and in the meantime perform all the functions of his government, and for that purpose, r there might be some doubt as to the legality of his pro ceedings, he transmitted fresh instructions, authorising him to go on with six members only. And then, to show the self-contradiction, the noble earl stated: "But when the season returns fur taking into consideration the ordinances, it is desirable that the council be reconstructed on its former heals." Now, what was the meaning of the instruction ? Was it that there should be six ; and, if so, what was the meaning of constituting it on the former basis ? " This is nee scary ," he said, "in a legal point or vin w, by the letters patent" - Here was another point which showed the pertirewity. of Earl Grey. Everyone of the members of the couucill signed a petition, praying the crown to revoke the instructions as to the presidency of the council, hut" no " said the noble earl, " 1 see no reason for altering the instructions." One point more. The noble lord had issued iustructious, declaring that the meaning of his former letteas patent was, that ten should mean six, but unfortu nately he (the Earl of Derby) held in his hand en opinion, signed by no mean authorities—Mr. Spencer Walpole, Mr. Tyntlal, and Sir Fitzroy Kelly that his position, laid down by the noble earl, was illegal. But, although there existed no doubt whatever as to the ' legality of that body, could they believe that, as it was at present constituted, and at the present time, and under pre sent circumstance., it was a body to whom it was desirable to confide such delicate and important functions as the framing of a constitution for the colony ? The governor himself had pointed out, and as he (the Earl of Derby) thought, with perfect reason and propriety, a course which would be, and which only could be, satisfactory, viz., the final and early adjustment of this important question b y the authority and intervention of the parliament. (Hear, hear.) It was true that it had been suggested that an ordi nance under the sanction of the crown might meet the Case, hut after whet bail occurred in the Cape Colony they could not rely on the utmost amount of respect being paid to such an ordinance. The ordinance put in force by a secretary of state with whom a large portion of the people haul been engaged for years its angry contention might meet with a reception which it was desirable to avoid—the con stitution seat out under such circumstances might prove as unsatisfactory as was the present state of affairs. lie be lieved that the supreme authority of parliament with the sanction of the crown—he believed that that authority, and that alone--could solve the problem at present threat ening the desolation of society at the Cape. (Hear, hear.) To that authority all parties would be inclined, cheerfully to submit, in the first instance, and more particularly so if there were power reserved for the legislative body to be constituted to alter and amend the constitution sent out to them by its own free will, with the sanction of the crown. But what was of all thing. moat important, was that this agitating and exciting question should not be long hung up—that it should nut be allowed to lie over, and thus be the means of kindling fresh animosities, sad raising fresh discords. Ile had hesitated to recommend the introduction to the colony of such a large measure of representative government as was contained in these papers; but inasmuch as the ques tion had been raised on such high authority, and had ob tained the sanction of a large portion of the colonists, he for one would not oppose the extension to the colony of the institutions proposed, however anxious he might feel as to their probable working. He would, however, say, "Fur God's sake settle this question here by the dispassionate ' authority of this and the other house, under the sanction of the crown; settle it by en authority to which respect will be paid." He called on their lordships to interfere, seeing that they had ample materials before them. They had the scheme of the members of the Cape Assembly in their hands; they had also the scheme of the remanent members of the legislative council, the opinions of the governor, the sentiments of the colonists themselves on the ealgeet, end, in short, all the information which they could W peribility desire. The duties which he desires! to im pels upon the committee which he wished appointed would se doubt be important, but not necessarily of long duration. But, even if it were to prolong the session for a week or a fortnight, if they could obtain the desired result, he thought that the consumption of a small portion of their I lordships' time, and of the time of the other house, would be well repaid, seeing that they might confer lasting benefit on that distracted colony—a colony which they all knew was agitated by internal commotion arid afflicted with ex ternal war. If they restore to the colony the blessings of peace, and strengthened the hands of the 'colonial govern ment, by consenting to protract their labours for a short time, he was sure that not ono of their lordships would deny that the delay would be amply compensated by the results. In asking foe these changes, he (the Earl of Derby) did not ask for a chartist riot. (" Hear, hear," from Earl Grey.) The noble earl might cheer, but he was per ' fectly sincere when ho said that he did not desire to see I any continued commotion at the colony. He held sash I agitations to be exceedingly injurious both to the ' colony and us the home country, and it was the interest of both, that the question s ho uld be speedily sad satisfactorily adjusted. Ile desired to see the friendly as sistance and co-operation of parliament taideral by bra Majesty's government. It was his wish that their hands should be strengthened in carrying out the object in view, end as he desired that they should proceed in what he deemed the only manner by which the desiderated rush, could be attained, and satisfaction afforded to the Cep 'okay', he begged to move " that the papers laid Was this Douse during the present simian end the last modes of parliament, relative to the fran oi t tative institutions to the Cape e Se referred to a select ocamwdree," and he had met distinctly that the oldest which he bad in liner was, with the West possible der Of drat, to have a bill islosiand kr solos as sass. sod Ise a log Is elne. lids awl dills& sod sesspiss twain. (I=.) theeektou the IPA May, 11114; and when it arrived, de lad Grey sad Lord Lyndhurst both rose to adding tie whew was la a Maw miaow. It mialst he hao hoc i oad he • few sontents *either would give way. thet ibe kaki*, esermil hod foe ROY appspled e s a th e e bows whether, alter suck al eetimolisa at the . wed4aat te ke lewd in reply. • INN dist , 2 to -toe Weed amid otirtaisdr Woo the time bad ordeal senestitiag .__. 9( the Meta-) =se Mtge ought - of ItICIMOPM.-Tott, Lord Lyadhamet, of Ihe Ow, sad Wire the woad slmeeld waist el • . Mkspe Os et.CLA)OIIC4Dig Medd sweat tie wasiehol atolls= oft he mown. ; whoa Oh adjeammonladed his aside Mead (Lai enieed et the Cape, *me wee a stremp Mete of *ham. Osey) was ant baud. He would, however, WC the In the interval of 1841 sad 1849 loilommeted that lament- hum whether ft would not be better to allow his nails able state of things which arose eel of the ma-omelet mi. fdmidlamaseeL . . Odious. mu amid seadema mem tirsaggly the. he did Thole.. of DERBY laid the convenience Cl the beam the visaged eassmoss emeeted tats permet Me latralustisa lad the of the debts earl wauY, he theist*, be, ceasona col the eseseimm Dort Y hit Mat as that mourion by hie arble Mead (Lad inret) immedlidely Mow • Feet arm was naneer, that eapsets- leeliZe ofDarky). He had set mewl into the time had bon held we, bed not bees astually Moll o f the mestioa, and it was apes this point that gives, that ionises 'Wald set admitted unless their !dead (Lad Lyadharst) intended to speak. Ile poems wen desired as a hem in the colony, and under wee male ewe, lowsreer, that if the noble earl froisted on metals eireemotmees their pesonce sight lave bees a boss. *riga pmehmak kis noble friend would give way. That ono met with a grievoos punishamt. The spirit Cl Lied - LYEDIMAT corroborated the statement of the resistance woe evoked, and though in gusto:awe, dot resist- atDaeby as to hie intentioh to meek on the kepi= awe was carried to an intemperate actress. It was carried of the lionatim illialletiately after his noble friend (tie to each an extent that the authority of the crown of Derby), and be *slight that this course would be mod was successfully defied and resisted ; the authority of suited to the movestence of the house. the crown was lowered in the colony. At the corn- Earl GREY said It was because he did not feel quite eaeneement of the year 1849, the agitation was carried competent to reply on a legal question that he thought to such an extent as to debar any person from he should be first heard in reply to the noble taking the office of legislative councillor offered to them seri (the Earl of Derby), and that when his noble on the part of the crown ; and those who had consented and learned friend (Lord Lyndhurst) should have spoken to take the office, were not only menaced, but they arta- on the legal question, some noble awl learned friend of his ally encountered violence in their persons and their pro- should repl on that part of the case. Ile was surprised perty, the consequence of which was, that the legislative that Lord Derby, after having occupied the attention of council we. virtually defunct. This anti-convict agitation the house for so long a time, should have disposed of the speedily led, as it was sure to do, to a political agitation, reasons in favour of the motion in a few sentences. Enter and therefore when the despatch came out, calling upon taming, as he did, a very strong opinion against the exp.- the governor to refer the new constitution to his lmisla- dieney of acceding to the motion, that opinion was nither tive conned as Inca constituted the governor was under strengthened than otherwise by the noble lord's speech, of the which seemed solely airned at obtaining a- ' - In .party eerie portions of the elaborate statement which the house had just heard he entirely agreed, but from others he was compelled to dissent; for instance, from that part in which Lord Derby said that in his despatch in an swer to the first petition from the Cape for representative institutions he had not meant to refuse such institutions to that colony. Be that as it might, the present government had found that the old system of governing by the legisla tive council was working badly, and that a strong desire for a representative system existed in the minds of the inha bitants. Both Sir H. Pottinger and Sir H. Smith, who had been desired to report on the matter, had come to the con clusion that the change was desirable, and might be made with safety. When this state of things had been reported to him—(Earl Grey)—when ho found that the former system would no longer work, the question had been practically decided, but then it had to be considered how the new constitution might be established with the least danger. and on the *hole with the greatest probability of success. This had been • serious question, because of the extreme difficulty by which, from the peculiar circumstances of the colony, the working of the representative government must be met there. The difficulty had been so great that he con fessed he would almost have shrunk from carrying any system of representative government into effect until there should be the recurrence of still greater urgency. As to the manner of carrying out the question, he might state that he had considered the best course to be followed was to have the whole subject referred to a committee of Privy Council. From the earliest history of our colonies the Board of Trade had been charged with such matters before they came under the consideration of government But in the present state of this country, with the all but into lerable pressure which was upon all departments of the pub lic service, it was practically impossible to bring the whole cabinet to consider the details of measures requir ing minute examination. Ile had therefore thought that if the question were considered by a small com mittee of the Privy Council, it would be attended with great advantage. In the matter he had had the assistance of the noble lord, the vice-president of the Board of Trade, the Lord Chief Justice, Sir Edward Ryan, and Sir Jar. Steven. He had also had an opportunity of, in some degree, availing himself of the assistance of the president of the Board of Trade. The report had been prepared with great care and deliberation. That report, however, had no foree until submitted to the cabinet and confirmed by her Majesty. The referring of the report to the Board of Trade had afforded an additional guarantee for full and deliberate in quiry and consideration before any decisive steps were taken. lie might here remark, that from the testimony I which had been from various quarters borne to the satis faction afforded by this mode of procedure in the case of the Australian Colonies Bill, they had been confirmed in the propriety of the step they hod taken. The benefit of having a measure thoroughly sifted before being brought before parliament was evidenced by the fact that the Australian Colo nies Bill, although it had undergone a very severe and searching criticism in parliament, hail passed through both houses by large majorities without being al tered in any of its essential features. He would not say that the constitution of the legislative councils and houses of assembly in the colonies was in the highest degree satisfacto ry. In Jamaica the legislative council could not originate a bill of any kind. In Canada the legislative council was named for life ; and, as was the case in many other colonies, had con sisted of government nominee.. Would any one say that the system which had prevailed there hail answered well ? On the contrary, there had been one perpetual quarrel be tween the legislative council and the House of As sembly ; and the council had almost been an instrument to obstruct the measures of the Assembly. Ile still however believed that when they had an assembly, elected by a very extended franchise, it was necessary to have a body possessing somewhat more of authority than legislative I couneila had hitherto possessed, to share the responsibility of legislative government, and as regards the Cape, he MIS persuaded that from the discredit into which the council had fallen, if it had been attempted to form a legislative council, consisting of a limited number of members named for life, the result would have been that they would have had now a body possessing pub is confidence, and matters bearing a more settled and peaseful aspect. He must now come to the history of the proceedings which had taken place when the letters patent of 1851 bad reached the colony. Letters patent bad in Ms ewe, been issued, and the public generally were aware Ilse these who accepted office for the purpose of issu- log those letters patent had done so with a full knowledge of their duty. He had no doubt that' the ostensible reason for the resignation of these persons was anything but the real one. His lordship then proceeded to show that it would be impossible to leave the colony in the 'hands of those who would probably be returned to a par- I liament under existing circumstances, and with such views popular as had been put forth on the part of the seceding members. They would agree to no financial arrangements for the maintenance of the institutions of the colony except I the voting of annual estimates , to be granted or with. held according to the caprice of the moment. To this it was impossible to assent, though he had not hail any hesitation in assuring the colonists that, alter proper provision had been made for the administration of the colony, there was scarcely any reduction to which he should not advise her Majesty to assent. He agreed with Lord Derby that the governor ought not to have accepted the four resignations, and then he could have proceeded, unquestioned, with the aid of the six acting members. The resignations had been designed to promote an impression at the Cape that the governor was powerless in the hands of agitators. He had thought it right to show that the deli berate determination of the government should not be over ruled, and had ordered the governor to complete his cows ell, which he could increase to ten (the legal number) by the addition of two. The governor hail re rrtdthat, under the circumstances, he thought ould be well to order him to act with six mem bers of council, and this proposal had been acceded to in a despatch dated the lath of May. The noble lord did not seem to place much reliance on the ground of the illegality of the proceeding, for he had said he was not learned in the law, and would leave that put of the subject to the handling of those who were better qualified. But he (Earl Orey) could not confine himself to merely referring to the opines& quoted by the noble lord of three eminent lawyers, by which the government instructions were declared to he not legal, for he had received the opinion at die law officers of the crown to the effect that the in structions of the government were perfectly legal. But ho hod received that opinion at the last moment when the sail with the despatch was about to start, and the conse quence was that he had somewhat misapprehended the ground of that opinion, and so far as that ground was con cerned the despatch was certainly imperfect. But beyond that he held that no fault could be found with it. With respect to the law of the case he should follow the example of the noble lord in making very slight allusion indeed to a part of the subject which he was conscious was beyond his strength. He would only say that he had first of all been advised by the law officers of the crown that the Isetructions of the goverument were perfectly consistent with the law ; and that since that time he had consulted thou in whose judgment ho had the best reasons to confide as& who were members of their lordships' house, and the result was that the opinion of the law officers of the crown as to the instructions being in conformity with the law had been completely confirmed. He believed it was a very old maxim among all persons conversant with matters of this kind that but little weight was to be attached to an opinion signed by a lawyer, however eminent, unless the case itself could be I seen—(hear)—and he must say that the opinion quoted by the noble lord had been founded on a ease in which the facts had been utterly misstated. The noble lord here read extracts from the case which had been submitted to Sir Fitzroy Kelly and the two other learned counsel, to the effect that a constitution once granted by the crown to a co luny was irrevocable, except by an act of the imperial par ' liament or an act of the local legislature, and that in this case the power of granting letters patent had been conferred upon wai nthe said by ritil iuronot upo n Kelly and the others, but it was not the fact, for in the commission of Sir H. Smith in 1847, there were material words, which the noble earl here were reo t i esta blish order e l a n dal ne vertheless, n o, w , ift w er e edth .r a u e g e good t h e io tlThe e ffe ct syat.c governmen t odhi regulationstiflh baoyi po w er t r 0 f t h e sags e o o rwl er artia instructionsu a I n col on y—subject , e it o j r e et to Secretaries that nder th of State ; and providing nevertheless Gist reservation be de ald ub e ted t° t ri l lli so t voefrereignverahings heirs, a larr Nem ead of ' es o t f ab t li:h u in g g . =o,s wit ui h czien th i: slauctsliatwadoasfmniignathtopendefvfbePer nmarTne llsomet, w or t hoof ace and judgment of woe fasoded opla . thelpedomation. Sub esenusussummiebet losi bees sees bl i :he governor to Nod= posimmilia. la Ibis ernes crown, instead et Miami liaras its power, reserved no t on l y the legne WM war perllanvat, but also the full and entire pow d =kW law. as fully as before. Further than t went on to direct that the r said aresell shed* be coustituted in suds a manner as was dirmaed thd Miltsetteas which were given with it, and VIM I. eardermilp Stith all such authority at -slight after be mussed eider the sign . manual, or bye/oda* the Privy Ceased af the sovereign. He with the alibis teed wises be said he considered It &balmily iseemeiry that the crown should appear to easy into Millet iY madsority, sad that a constitution ha been given, it simall et every brand be earned out. it was entirely wig to the oppodlisa of the four seceding members of the mama that the aeastitetkei had been prevented from boss et this mamma M armadas. Is a very short time the seer sary clew IWO* be and that constitution betorearta isle pmedee. The n oble Med urged that the flaw emit be Midi pet if her Majesty's government weal name some who had teal weight and autho rim, and a fixed de teradmation to give satisfaction to the ft i e r s . He was upon the whole much inclined to concur with the noble lied, he be thought it was a case 1 in which it was dem fet the pterament to take it upon themselves, and ISM the revirmsest were prepared to do ; but they woeM de se is the feemear which, under all the circumstances, they these* MO the Most fitting and pro per. The papers contained the meet complete information upon all point', and with those mem before them, he had no doubt there would be but little difficulty to the govern ment in framing in this country the draft of ordinances which in their view would be effective ; and it was the in tention of the government, without loss of time, to draw up the draft of ordinances to be sent out to the colony, and then he had little doubt that the governor, being thus relieved from responsibility, would be able to obtain an assembly compe tent according to law to pass those ordinances, and that they would be so passed. lie felt confident that with the means the government proposed the Kaffir war could not continue much longer, and then the only obstacle to the completion of the constitution would be removed. The noble lord had urged very earnestly that there should be legislation on the subject, and had argued that nothing but the authority of parliament could settle the question. The noble lord did not deny the legal com petency of her Majesty to bring this constitution into operation by the means proposed, and admitted that orders passed under the letters patent would be legal and binding; but as the same time the noble lord argued that, in order to secure the confidence of the colonists, an act of parliament should be passed. If the noble lord thought so, it would be far better for him to move an address to her 1 Majesty praying that the matter should pass into other hands, or that ho should say at once that the government gave up the prerogative of the crown from hands unfit far its protection. If the noble lord entertained that opinion of him (Earl Grey) let him say so. But the proposed mode of establishing the constitution had been found after careful inquiry and con sultation with the most eminent legal authorities to be per fectly consistent with legal precedents and the practice of the constitution. He would refer their lordships to a statement of the steps which had been taken in conferring constitu tions upon colonies. It was in 1564 that the first consti tution was given to Jamaica. It empowered the governor to call a council, continued the noble earl, and by its ad vice to establish a general assembly. This is precisely in accordance with what we have done at the Cape. Jamaica, in those early days of its occupation by us, was but thinly inhabited, and the case of Jamaica constituted by no means so difficult and complicated a case as that with which we had to deal at the Cape. There were here conflicting in terests and feelings to consider, necessitating an elaborate arrangement, and suggesting a wide discretiOn to the local authorities, but the leading principles of both cases were the same. But the noble lord said that they ought to have a select committee on the subject. Now, even assuming that legislation was the right course to pursue, and that parliament ought to deal with the matter, he must say that a committee was a very irregular mode of arriving at it. But before he went to that point he begged to ask, why seek to do it by act of parliament at all ? Surely, if the crown was competent to do what was necessary, it might do it without the interference of parliament. Was the noble lord aware of any case in which an assembly had been created by parliament previous to 1791 ? Previous to that year the crown had invariably proceeded by a commission • under the great seal, directed to the governor of the colony that was to receive representative in stitutions ; but in 1791 that practice was departed from, for a special reason. Canada was a conquered colony, and it was notorious that nearly the entire popula tion of Canada were Roman catholics, and it was the desire, the wise and just desire, of the government to give the Roman catholics powers which, as the law of England then stood, the crown could not give. With respect to Aus tralia the same thing was done, and for this reason, that although the crown could by a commission grant re presentative institutions, yet in the early days of the Australian colony, when the population consisted chiefly of convicts, such institutions were manifestly inappli cable, and the sanction of parliament was therefore invoked ; and, the former government having been esta blished by parliament, no less authority than parliament could make the subsequent alterations. (Hear.) With respect to the question of a committee, he begged to say that here they were in the middle ofJuly,and considering that the Aus tralian bill, upon which, atter all, there was much less divi sion of opinion than upon the present question, occupied the major part of last aloion, and considering also the nu , merous important bills which could not be overtaken this session, he could not help thinking that it would be rather an extraordinary course to take at this time, when °Vier measures of importance were necessarily postponed, that they should he called upon to introduce a bill which would be sure to lead to discussions not much shorter than those of the Australian hill lest year. (Hear, hear.) But he saw no reason for a committee. What were the committee to do? The facts of the case were before them. If their' ' lordships thought that he (Lord Grey) had done wrong, the best course would be to address the crown to rearind the instructions, and to direct the government to introduce , a bill. (Hear. hear.) When the noble lord gave notice of the motien three weeks ago, he laid the principal stress . upon the legal dif fi culty. lie implied, es clearly possible, in giving that notice, that the subject which he chiefly wished the committee to consider was whether the instructions issued in :gay last were instructions in con formity with law, and whether, in fact, it would nut be necessary to pass a bill of indemnity in favour of bar 111a jesty's government. The Earl of DERBY—To cover the acts of the governor at the Cape of Good Hope in having expended money not voted. • Illeatand sionw years to come. In consequence of the therreire ism the )hutch fanners, in 1812 and 1843, ineiss4 to Metal; and the noble lord, then in the Colonial ' ellia;eassidering it inexpedient to permit them to establish stn settlement. despatched forces to reduce the &Met gle independent which the Dutch fanners had medicated ' under the power of her Mejestv. There was a revere con ' iiiatamd loss of life on both sides •, but eventually by fares dams the noble lord established the power of the crown la the ntheraest of Natal. Subsequently, in 1848, the same easels led to • porson of the name of Fretorius, whose avowed object was the establishment of a federal republic in South Africa, setting up the standard of revolt, the con sequence of which was a contest and a severe en gagement, in which he was defeated by Sir H. Smith. The whole object of the party I have alluded to is republican. They do not at all disguise their object. They state that the welfare of the ceteny is only to be secured by a republican form of govern ment, which shall be altogether free from the control of the government of this conittly. Now these persons are inti mately connected and allied by relationship and friendship with a large population within the colony; and recently circumstances have occurred which have enabled designing men, though much was done before to conciliate that large population, to deceive them us to the true objects and intentions of the British government, and in this way to enlist them in opposition to us. This republican party is one upon which these de signing persona mainly rely for support. The other party is a party organised in Cape Town during the anti-convict agitation. The noble lord was very severe in his comments upon the mistake made, as he assumed, by her Majesty's government, and principally by myself (for I admit that the responsibilitylnust chiefly rest with mc) in sending con victs out to the Cape colony in 1819. 1 need not repeat all I have had to gay on other occasions on this subject. There may have been an error committed. But all I can say is, that we were at the time in circumstances of extreme clitfi culty—difficu.ty left to the present government in • great measure by the noble lord himself, who had brought Van Diemen's Land into such a state that convicts could no longer be safely sent there. My firm belief is that if the convicts sent to the Cape had been received they would have been found an advantage and not an injury to the colony. The offences which they had committed, and for which they had been sentenced, were offences com mitted fur the preservation of life during the famine in Ireland. From motives of humanity, we found it necessary to remove them from Bermuda, and as we could nut bring them home, and could not transfer them to Van Dieinen's Land, we had no alternative lint to send them to the Cape. I have explained before, and I repeat that it never was the intention of the government to send more than this one convict ship to the Cape. Whatever our error, I sin glad to find the noble lord does not attempt to palliate the means which were taken by the people at Cape Town to carry out their resistance to the reception of those convicts. Those means resorted to by the leaders of the Anti-Convict Association were most mischievous and most unjustifiable. Within the last few days a remarkable pamphlet has been published by a gentleman ' and a settler at the Cupe, of the Scotch church, connected with a missionary institution at the Cape, and now in this country on business relating to that mission. This gentleman was himself a party to the original measures adopted for preventing the landing of the convicts; but he now indignantly disclaims any partici pation in the subsequent unjustifiable proceedings of the Anti-Convict Association, which he represented as not hesitating to use their influence with the press to exclude from publication all news, speeches, resolutions not in accordance with their own views. Your lordships are aware that thisassociation attempted to deprive her Majesty's troops and the officials connected with the civil service of the neces saries of life ; and that although the governor made a dis tinct promise that the convicts should not be landed, ex plaining at the same time that lie had by law, no power of removing them, until he had communicated with the government at Wale, they continued the measures they hail threatened, and refused to afford, or to permit others to afford those supplies which were necessary to the pre servation of the health and life of the unhappy nun on board the convict-ship in the harbour, who were already exhausted by an unusually lengthened voyage in tropical seas. I will state, as an exemplification of the sys tem of intimidation panued, what was dune in an indi vidual VIM. There was a settler at the Cape of the name of Stamford, at the time of these occurrences, who, fur his services, has since been knighted by her Majesty. He was formerly tan officer in the army ; and having lett time army and settled at the Cape, lie turned fanner, and by energy and industry he succeeded in acquiring a large lauded estate and property of very considerable value. In the first instance he was adverse as the most eager to the lauding of the convicts ; but when the after proceedings were being taken he went to the governor and stated that so lung us the power to render *id was at his disposal, he would not suffer that gallant army, of which he had once been an officer, to be deprived of the common necessaries and comforts of life. Ile acted as he spoke ; and having corn and cattle, and provisions in great quantity and num ber, he was enabled, not without difficulty and resistance to assist the governor in obtaining for time convicts and troops the provisions required. What was the consequence ? lie be came a marked man ; and although it is now well known that the chance of convicts,being sent to the Cape is over, from that hour to this he has been persecuted with unmitigated hostility. His servants have been iutimillated ; no amass will buy or sell with him, and his crops have gone to waste because no labourer will dare to accept his hire. This is not all. The unmanly vengeance has been extended to his wife and children. An apothecary refused to make up for Lady Stamford the prescription which she hail been ordered, being for medicine which she could only obtain from that apothecary. Again, a child being taken ill, the father went from his farm, Willett was some distance from Cape Town, into the town, to bring Lady Stamford home to see the sick infant. Will it be believed that not u livery stable keeper its Cape Town would let his horses to the mother on such an occa sion to bring her to the farm ? Eventually a carriage and horses were procured from the governor's secretary ; but on the road'Lady Stamford stopped at an bum to bait the horses, mud because the innkeeper did not refuse her, saying that he had children himself, and could not refuse her, his house was at once left by the company staying in it at the time, and since that day this innkeeper has gradually been reduced to ruin. Such were the means resorted to to consolidate a power which I firmly believe was intended for purposes scarcely less objectionable than those very means. I have formerly shown that the real objection could not have been to the landing of the convicts, because the system of coercion introduced when the Neptune convict ship was in the harbour has been continued ever since, with the sole object of adding to the influence of a party to whom the adoption of the motion of the noble lord would offer the most direct and most distinct encouragement. The real leader Earl GREY—I am glad that the noble lord has given us ' some explanation of a suggestion which was incomprehensi ble to me; and I confess that now that we have had the cx planation I understand the suggestion just as imperfctly. Because the noble lord has admitted that the council had the power to legislate until the issue of the writs for the new assembly; and, of course, what the imperial parlia ment could do to cover the appropriation of the money, it was within the functions of the local legislature to do also. (Hear, hear.) The local legislature in fact, could do it far more effectually and conveniently, because on the spot it would know what had been done, while we here would never accurately know what the gover nor had done to require and justify an indemnity. (Loud cheers.) The noble lord contemplated, in the first instance, a committee to inquire into the law ; and I must say that nothing could be a greater violation of all precedent than a committee for such a purpose. Why, we cannot delegate to a committee any powers to inquire into the law. (Hear, hear.) Your lordships even have no right to pronounce on a question of law until that question is regularly brought before you in the proper course as ajudieial tribunal. What, then, are the grounds for this motion ? Your lordships may disapprove of the course taken by her Majesty's government, but, at the same time, you cannot justly approve of such a proposition as this until good and valid reasocis have been shown that the adoption of the proposition will contribute to the public advantage. To appoint a committee would be to throw doubt and uncertainty on all the acts of the government at the Cape, and to support and strengthen the objects of those gentlemen who have come to England as the organs of a particular party, in opposition to the local government. (Hear, hear.) This party seeks to compel her Majesty's government to alter a certain line of policy, deliberately adopted, and carefully considered ; and they have taken counsel's opinion, under the defective circum stances I have stated, iu order to show that the government have acted without due legal sanction ; and if, by granting a committee, your lordships palpably encouraged their agita tion, I oak what other effect would be produced lathe colony than to weaken the authority of the gallant officer to whom has been entrusted the difficult and responsible task of ad ministering the affairs of the Cape? (Hear, hear.) Those who have not carefully watched recent proceedings at the Cape can have but an imperfect idea of the exact character of the unscrupulous party to whom I have referred, and of the consequent mischief which would be done by accepting the suggestions of the noble lord. It is therefore abso lutely necessary for me to make known to your lordships the true character and the true conduct of this party. In making this statement, it will be my painful duty to speak severely; but it is a duty which I have deliberately resolved to discharge; and I will endeavour to express myself as dispassionately as it is pos sible consistent with a clear and conscientious narration of facts. This party trusts for support mainly to two classes of persons : to the support, in the first instance, of some of the Dutch farmers; and next, to the support of the party organised at the Cape during the time of what was called the Anti-Con vict Association, With regard to the Dutch farmers, I ant bound to say that I attach great value to that class of per suns. I think they hare many great and valuable qualities combined with some very considerable faults and vices; and unfortunately they . are, to a very great extent, too easily led away by design ing men whose motives and pur poses are essentially di ff erent from their own. This dam has been for several years in a state of great discontent ; and I am compelled to admit that that discontent had its origin in justice, and that it mainly originated in that measure passed by the noble ' lord himself in relation to the emancipation of slaves. (Hear.) I am now expressing no new opinion. I am aware thot those for whom I have the greatest respect and ' admiration arc jointly responsible with the noble lord for the act in question. I know that the hopes and intentions of the noble lord were most excellent and most praise worthy. But I am convinced, and I expressed the convic tion at the time in my place in the other house, that that set of 1833 was an unwise measure, as effecting a merito rious object by the most injudicious means, and that it was ° calculated to inflict an unnecessary injury upon the masters ef the slaves upon whom we proposed to confer the inesti mable boon of freedom. At all events whether that opiuion is correct or incorrect, it is indisputable, and the noble lord will not contradict me, that the discontent of the Dutch Boers dates from the slave emancipation in 1833. That measure induced among that class a desire to remove be yond the reach of the British anthority, into the interior of Africa ; and that measure, admirable as was its object, has, I contend, been the fruitful source of all the difficulties with which, from that time to this, we have had to deal in South Africa, and with which, I fear, we shall still have to of that Anti-Convict Association is the editor and owner of a newspaper which was the great abettor of the whole of this system of tyranny, which extended even to the persecu tion of a woman placed in circumstances of the deepest dis tress to which a woman could be exposed; and that gentleman is the very Mr. Fairbairn who is now in this country as the organ of the party which, as 1 have explained, would profit so largely by the success of the proposition of the noble turd. Now, my lords, before you come to the vote, I du entreat you seriously to consider the responsibility you incur. You cannot, if you will consider the question for a moment; if you think legislation necessary, you cannot think that re -1 terrine these papers to a select committee can advance that legislation. It can have no effect of the kind. The only cousequence that cart possibly result from it is to throw im plied censure on her Majesty's government for the mea sures which we have adopted. If we have deserved that censure, 1 do not refuse to submit to it. If that censure is justly due, 1 say propose it regularly. You may require that her Majesty's government may sub mit to their committee the powers which her Ma jesty's government have shown themselves incompetent to wimd, but do not take this course, by which you exasperate existinganimositiea, and at the same time leave the exist ing po licy, and deprive that policy of its real chances of success. I cannot think that your lordships will give a vote to lead to such consequences as these, and therefore 1 look forward with the utmost confidence to your lordships' rejec two of this motion. (Cheers from the ministerial benches.) The Earl of MALMESBURY said that he should not follow the noble lord into the discontent in Van Diemen's Land, for he could not forget that the real point for their lordships' decision was, whether it were expedient that the constitution should proceed from the hands of parliament or from the hands of the executive government. He had no wish to impede the progress of the colonial power ; he had no wish to take, even for a time, any of the executive power which he derived from his tenure of office. All he asked of him was to do now what he had voluntarily done fur himself. The noble earl, after having voluntarily abdi cated all the powers belonging to his office and made others do the work which he ought to have done himself, now ven tured to offer as an objection to the motion, that it interfered with the performance of duties by the Colonial-office. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl had referred the discontent existing in the colonies to erroneous grounds. The colonists had for some years been discontented because their wishes for a constitution were disregarded, and the storm burst when the noble earl unfortunately thought of sending convicts among them. From that moment the colony had been in a flame, general dissatisfaction manifested itself against the home government, and the colonists had thwarted every act of the noble earl, ; It had been urged that the four members of council had re- I signed their office, but it was to be regretted that the noble ' lord had not exercised his power on behalf of the crown, and had not refused to accept their resignation. In the despatch of December 10, 18110, the noble earl, however, ' after a severe rebuke to Sir H. Smith for having given up , his responsibility, actually accepted the resignation of those members. He could not but be struck with the singular fact of how fully all the prophetic fears of the noble earl . near him (the Earl of Derby) had been realised since 1842. As matters stood, it would be better for the Cape to receive the constitution from the Imperial Parliament than from a ' hostile body unfit to legislate, when they would receive it, not as a boon, but as a pledge of hostility. Two of the mist influential inhabitants of the Cape had come over here with constitutions framed according to their views. There were, in addition, the institutions recommended by the go ' vernor, and those of government ; so that, in fact, there ' were not less than seven separate constitutions ready for the ! Cape. The most suitable body to consider all these different propositions was that to which his noble friend proposed to refer the question —a tribunal which could avail itself of the ' experience of the noble earls (Earl Grey and Earl of Derby), and of the abilities of the men best acquainted with the merits of the subject, namely, a committee of their lordship*. ' It would be far better that they should devise what course was to be taken than to have a constitution extorted from ' the noble earl by thou* who neither loved nor feared him, and a committee would be far more likely to appease the colony than if the form was to issue a commission. Even if the committee was to prolong the session for a week or a fort , night, he was satided their lordships' time would never be I better spent than in attendance on that committee, and in going through this important subject in all its detaihi. (Hese, hear.) Lord CRANWORTH adduced a law argument, to the effect that there was no doubt whatever of the legality of the conduct of the Colonial Secretary, and advising the house not to unsettle the minds of the Cape and other col°. nista upon the question of charters. Lord LYNDHURST considered that the legal members of that house were bound to give their opinion upon Pining of law with as much fairness anti gond faith as if they were on the bench of justice, and in expressing his views on that occasion he should be actuated by such a feeling. When he rose before, his object was to confine himself to the question of the legality of the legislative council. His noble friend near him (the Earl of Derby) had called attention to the opinion that had been expensed on this subject by lawyers of great eminence in this kingdom, who alter long consideration had given their decided opinion, which had been read to their lordships, that the con stitution of this legislative council was invalid and illegal. The noble earl opposite had stated that the facts of the cases were not fully and fairly represented to those learned per sons, and he had referred to the letters patent of 1817, • anise of which he read to their lordships. Now he was authorised to state by those learned persons that that state ment was incorrect—that they hail hid a view of the letters patent, and that that instrument did not at all affect the opinion which they had given. The task which he had undertaken was simply this, not to give any opinion of his own, but to state the reasons and grounds of the opinion which had been expressed by the learned gentlemen to whom he had referred. He regretted that he was not allowed to make this statement at an earlier period of tho evening, because from physical circumstances he could have done it better than he could at that late period of tho evening. The question was of great importance, because if their lordships should be of opinion that the constitution of the legislative council now in existence at the Cape was invalid, a grievous load of responsibility would fall upon all the persons engaged in it ; and therefore he called upon them most anxiously to consider the question. His noble and learned friend had smoothed the way fur its conside ration the colony was a conquered colony—the crown had power to make laws. After a certain time, iu consequence of the increase of the European population, it was considered proper to give them a legislature, known by the name of the legislative council. It consisted of two parties the number was not to be more than 12, nor less; than IV, and six of them were to be official persons dependent on the government ; the remainder were to be persons representing the interests of the inhabi tants—a free element in that legislative body. It was clearly so considered by the law officers of the Cape, for they always treated it as an element placed in the coun cil to check the other part of that laxly ; that body consisted, therefore, of two parts. It bed been stated that the crown having once made a grant of this kind, could not ab rogate it, and it was so. She had parted with all her authority, and she could not rescind or alter it. That was the principle. His noblc friend had referred to the Grcnada case ; that was a case alsoof conquest. The crown mode a promise of a legislature, and issued a commission similar to the present in April, 1763; that commission authorised Gen. Melville to call an assembly when the circumstances of the colony would admit of it. That assembly was not called until tho end of the following year; and in the meantime the crown passed a law for regulating the customs, which was held to be invalid. And why? Because the crown had not reserved to itself any power of legislation. (Hear, hear.) In the present case a power of legislation had been re-erred ; but in the course of the judgment of Lord Mansfield, a great and enlightened jurist and statesman, many points were decided beside that to which his noble and learned friend hail called attention. The whole subject of the con nexion of the crown with the colonies was sifted and dis cussed most minutely, and an elaborate judgment was pronounced by that eminent Chief Justice. Lord Mansfield said that if an element of freedom was given in any legis lative measure, or any popular right or power, which operated as a cheek on the government, in that rose the crown had no power to revoke the grant. His noble and learned friend bad referred to twine general words added to the instructions, and he said the constitution of the legislative council was to be framed according to the instructions accumpanyiug the commission, or any future instructions afterwards to be given. In the Grenada ease there were the same words, and the same power WA% given, and, not . ithstanding that Lord Mansfield said that if there had been a popular right given to an assembly, or to any part of the legislature, notwithstanding these general words, it could not be rescinded or recalled by the Crown, which had no power over that pert of the (constitution which repre sented the popular element of the constitution. (Hear, hear.) That case was reported in the State Trials, where his noble and learned friend might see it, in vol. 20, and if he belted at it he would fiud that his doctrine was wrong. What! was the crown to give a free constitution to-day ; rescind it to-nturruw, and re-grant it again accord ing to the caprice, the whim, of successive governments? (Hear, hear.) It was absurd and extravagant on the face of it ; and therefore with regard to that clause, on which his noble and learned friend had placed so much reliance, he begged to say it was in decided opposition, not only to ' the learned judge, but to the court. In May, 1840, it ap peared, letters patent were issued declaring that the legis lative council should continue to legislate for the colony until the rights under the intended new constitution should be issued. Supposing the crown could have exercised that power, here was an absolute grant that this legislative council should continue until a future period —an absolute grant of legislative power for the period, without reserve tiun. His noble and learned friend hail nut retCrred to those letters patent, but they established a grant of the franchise for the period stated ; usual when the crown granted a franchise to the inhabitants of a district or colony it was irrevocable. It could only be got rid of by surrender, by act of parliament or by forfeiture ; neither of which had been the case here. Ile contended, therefore, by that grant of WO by which the present legislative council was to con tinue for a period which had not expired, that whatever construction might be put on the other clause of the com mission, it deprived the crown of all right of interfering until the arrival of the period to which lie lied referred. But then it was said there was a reservation which did not exist in the Grenada case, of cer tain powers to the crown. When there was such a re servation the power could not lee extended beyond the nature of the reservation. What was the reservation in this case, and in all other cases ? It gave a concurrent power of legis lating with the legislature itself. It did not import that the crown had the power to rescind the acts of a legisla tive body. The words would not admit of such a construc tion. (these, bear.) But this was not all. How did the charter or letters patent of 1850 operate ? As fur as re lated to the legislature itself, it rescinded that power. A subsequent power rescinded the former law , ehi it it was inconsistent. How could it be mid, under the former law, that the crown had the right of rescinding and altering this grant when by a sulerequent law the same force and power said it should contioue for a period not yet arrived at? (Hear, hear.) This was the substance, then, of the argument. Instead of a council of tea persons it might consist only of six, and the popular element be taken away. The six persons might consist of official per eons, and become an arbitrary legislature. Ile would now advert to another point. Supposing this was a doubtful ease, and could it be said it was not so, when such eminent men had expressed their opinion that it was? Sup peeing it went to the colony as a doubtful car ; what per plexity and difficulty might be occasioned thereby? It could nut be stated iu terms too strong ; and he would adopt the opinion of the noble earl on this subje et, because when the question was considered whether the governor was authorised to legislate with a reduced council, the noble earl said there was a question of doubt, and it would be bad policy. Now he appealed to the noble earl, could any man say that it was nut a question of doubt and difficulty? and surely it ought in mime way to be settled. (Hear.) Ile hoped he had stated the case fairly, as he was sure he had done so to the le at of his judgment. The noble earl hail gut information from all parties in the colony, so that he was in PAM' sion of every information to complete this work. That why should it not be completed? (Hear, hear.) Hs would never get more information than he had. It had been said that this was not a proper time, but lie (Lord Lyndhurst) thought no difficulty would pre+vot itself from the existing war. The noble lord concluded amidst loud cheers. The LORD CHANCELLOR was sorry to be obliged to differ front his noble and learned friend with reference to his law on this subject. His noble and learned friend here and there had introduced a sentence which altered the whole case; and he had said that it would be found in the 20th volume of the State Trials that Lord Mansfield had laid down the doctrine that if the crown once introduced any liberal element into the consti tution of a colony, notwithstanding any words of reser vation, it could not be interfered with after. Not knowing the course which the debate might take, he had brought down the volume ; and the case referred to was utterly devoid of any such reservation as was contended in the present case. (Hear, hear.) But the ab s ence of that very reservation was a subject remarked on by Lord Mans field in the case of " Grumbole v. Hall." Lord LYNDHURST' rose to explain, and placed in the hands of the Earl of Derby a written extract front Lord Mansfield's judgment, which the noble lord read to the house, but in a manner which was inaudible in the gallery. The LORD CHANCELLOR than proceeded to read the judgment, which was to the effect that, as the King had issued a proclamation that he had commissioned the go vernor, as soon as the state of the colony should permit, to call an assembly to make laws as in th e oth e r i s land s and in America, giving therefore a complete constitution, and leaving nothing to be done but to assemble the house, the crown had parted with its legislative power, though the assembly was not called until December of the following year. Now, in 1817, the crown then having, as it was admitted, full power to legislate in the Cape of Good Hope, issued certain letters patent direct ing the governor to form two councils. Now what was the nature of that document 1 It was not a grant to the colony; I it was merely a grant front the crown to its own officers, and was capable of being revoked at any time. This document was altogether foreign to a proclamation which empowered the grant of a constitution to the colony. Thus was the crown simply exercising its prerogative through officers provided by itself. his hoe. and learned friend said that a free element was introduced under these letters patent. The free element was of this nature—the letters pa tent simply announced to the governor that he was to for a council according to instructions front time to time. The letters patent were not given in such a form as to bind the hands of the crown. They were subject to instructions to be from time to time furnished. The instructions with regard to the council were, that one should be called the elective council, "and be constituted in such man ner as arc directed by our instructions accompanying our commission, or according to such other instructions or au thority as than at any time be forwarded to you under our c