The Express. — London, England, 1851-02-08 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 8, 1851. ..--.... _ - IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. WINDOW TAN.—By Mr. lIOLLOND, fraealliddeMl (mete% in reference tostigly win read, the vote fur grant- Mr. LUSIIINGTON, from the Westminster nallenn Mee ; ing the supply was ago to, and theeresoluCon reported eiety; Alderman SIDNEY, from Stafford ; Mr. PIGOTT, ito the house. from Reading ; Mr. W. ILSON, from corporation of TIIE PAPAL AGGRESSION. Clitheroe ; Mr. BASS, from corporation of Derby; Mr. I Lord J. RUSSELL, in moving for leave to bring in a PLOWDEN, from corporation of Newport, Isle of Wight; ! hill to prevent the assumption of certain ecclesiastical Mr. MOFFAT, from corporation of Dertmouth—for the , titles in respect of places in the United Kingdom, I repeal of the Window Tax. said: The house will, I am sure, readily believe t he THEI COUNSEL TO SPEAKER. anxiety with which I approach the important subject which I Mr. W. PATTEN moved for a select committee to eon- : have promised to bring unders its consideration. The deep rider the mode in wbkh the duties heretofore attached to' interest felt in this country by all classes, of persons, the the office of counsel to the Speaker, with regard to the' numerous petitions which have been presented to the house private business, shall be performed; and to propose such' praying the house to resist IDeraachluents on the part of a regulation. respecting pnvate business; generally as they ! foreign sovereign, the addresses which have been presented may think fit :—Mr. Labouchere, Mr. Vernon Smith, to the crown—all make it matter of deep responsibility to Mr. Bernal, Sir George Clerk, Mr. Evelyn Denison, Mr. uudertake the task of bringing such a question under the Henley, Sir John Yank Buller, Sir Robert Ferguson, , notice of the house. Sir, that anxiety is not diminished, Mr. Hume, Mr. Sotheroa, Mr. Brotherton, Sir John Duck- but increased by the symptoms which appeared the other lwerth, Mr. Deedes, Mr. Briancon, and Mr. Wilson Patten. I evening of the disposition of a great portion of the house in Mr. V. SallTil said the recommendation of the corn- reference to the motion which I may have to make. One mime., over which he had the honour to preside in 184$, ! gentleman (the boo. and learned member for Sheffield) who wan that on a vacancy oecurrine, the question of the ap- : spoke nu that occasion warned me not to teke a retrograde ',ointment of cuuosd to the Speaker should be reconsidered.l step on this question. (Hear , hear.) Another hon. gentle- Ile thought it was also decided that in case of the appoint- I man, the member for Buckinghamshire, warned me, on the mein of a clerk to the house, some gentleman should be I other side, not to introduce anything less than a complete appointed who would he capable and a Wing to perform the code for regulating all the relations which might occur duty of counsel tothe Speaker, as well as clerk also. (Hear, between the court of Rome and her Majega este's ra to subject" in of hear.) the United Kingdom. Now, sir, with r the first After a few words from Mr. I.abonehere, Xr. J. Stuart, these observations that I should not take a retrograde step, and Mr. Patten, the motion was %Weed to, I will say that the only retrograde step I propose to take BOARD OF TRADE. ie that natural action it, man,who, feeling a blow aimed at Mr. DISRAELI said it was his intention to renew his his head, steps beck% el to raise his arm in a posture of notice of motion to inquire into the constitution of the defence. (Cheers.) With regard to the other observation, Board of Trade. He had made that motion last y; ar ; and I will not now enter into the conside rations which induce from what hail since transpired, he felt it imperative on him me to differ from the hon. gentlemen who made it. But, to again bring it forward. in the course of the' speech I shall have to make, I shall COMMERCE WITII SPAIN. address those observations to the home which appear to me In reply to Mr. ANDERSON, as to whether the geeenn ,to belong to the subject, and submit those motives which i meat of' this ennotry had been able to induce the Spanish I have induced the government nit to pursue that course government so far to reciproeate the comae reed policy of which the hon. gentleman suggested as the most proper on this country, as to abeindon the Weber deities in the pores this occasion. In bringing this subject before the house, I beg of Spain so d her dependencies on goods, when imported and the house to r, collect some of the ter. eminences which have exported in Bri t ish ship's, than when imported and ex- occurred of a very recent date. In 0.•• course of last year the ! ported in Spanish ships, nomination of an archbishop in Ireland by the Roman see Lord I'ALMERSTON sail he was sorry to have to was made in au unusual manner. It was generelly under state that, up to this present time, be had nut been able to stood, and never contralicted, teat these who usually elected to the office of archbishop oe Cie part of the Roman induce the Sponieh Forerun>e it to adapt that policy. Mr. AN DEItSON then Merged to give notice that, on the catholic' of Ireland sent three name sto tome; but instead 18th rat February he would , all the attention of the house of tiny one of the learnt d ecclesiastic, who were proposed to the differential duties levied on British Aim; in the ports for the office being chosen , a clergyman who hail leen long of Spain, and to move that w it a view to the just preec- resident in Rome, and who was more conversant with the ti of British navigation and eornmeree it is expedient that habits and opinions of Rome than the state and eireum under the provision of the net 12 it 13 Vie., cup. 211 such ' , mums of Ireland, was named by the Pope to mount,' the additional duties should he heeled a nd upon goodie ineported or exported in Spanish ship., did that ecclesiastic arrive than he showed very clearly that and on the tonnage of such ships as may serve to counter. it was not his intention to follow the usual practice ob vail the differential duties ms goods and tonnage levied in served by Archbishop Murray and others, of putting him , the poets of Spain and her dem ndences on British ships. self in communication with the eovernment of Ireland LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND.) with respect to matters which should necessarily he trans. Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL wished to knew from the right acted between them and the government. (Bear, hear.) bon. gentleman, the Secretary for Ireland, whether It was Presently we find that a synod haul been called at Theirles the intention of the government to bring in a bill to amend and it was stated that at that synod a question was raised . the relation. between landlord and tenant in Ireland ; and whether or not an address should be issued to the people of if so, at what time ? Ireland, and that that question was carried by 13 to 12, the Sir W. SOMERVILLE said it was the intention of mnjority of one consisting of the very person who had been minieters to introduce such a bill ; hut as to the partieular eent Over from Rome, and who was entirely unacquainted period, he could nut state. with the state of Ireland and the habits of the people. STAMP ACT. (Hear, hear.) The addres: was accordingly issued. If ' Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL rose to ask if it was the inten- that address had been confined to matters relating to the tie, of the government to hying in a bill to amend the internal discipline of the Roman catholic church--if it Stamp Art of last session (13 and 14 Vie. e. 97), or so much hail been shown that with regard to internal discipline of It as confine; the trial of all stamp appeals to her Mane', tie re hail been a variety of practice' , in different parts era tenet of Exchequer at Westminster, instead of allowing of Ireland, and that the synod hail met for the tsar arising in Ireland to be tried in that country. purpose of regulating these mattero—however unusual, The CH ANCELL(Ot of the EXCHEQUER begged t o however entirely without precedent since the time of the apologise to the hon. gentleman for not being able to answer revolution such a SVDOLI was, it might be reganied merely the question then; and ghouls', therefore, tequila of him to as a Male of introducing reforms and amendments in the renew his question on Monday. ecclesiastical system of the Roman catholic church. But AGRICI: LTUItAL DISTRESS. a greet portion of that WWII , . was taken up with ten sub- Mr. DISRAELI said that seeing the hon. member for leen. The one was the danger of the system of education East Yorkshire (Mr. Cayley) in his plate, he begged to nek in the colleges formed by the Queen in conformity with an him a question, and hoped to receive a favourable reply. He act of parliament. It was stated that, however good the in hud given notice of a motion for 'Tuesday next for consi- tentions of the legislature might have beau, these colleges di ring the dieterss which prevailed in the agricultural din were established in ignorance of the inflexible nature of tr:ets, as marked reference bad been made to it in her the Rommel catholic ehnreh, and it was pointed Majesty's speech. However, the hon. member (Mr. Cayley) nut that they could not he attended without danger had preceded him with a notice for the sonic day in refer- to the faith and morals of those who attended them. eon; to the considcmtion of the malt tax. Now, as the Another part if the address was taken up with a deecrip. motion of which he (Mr. Disraeli) hail given notice em- lion of that portion of the poorer classes of the Irish pea braced the whole of the cuff rine endured under the malt sentry who heal been evicted from their holdings, and I tax. what he wanted to ask was whole r the hon. member moot ray no language Neafl omitted which could excite the would give way to him and peotpone his motion. ids was feelings of that peasantry aff.till.l theca owners of land who , induced to ask this question became , be believed it would bed been enforcing the process of law against them on that tend greatly to the convenience of the house did the hon. ocension. (t'heere.) lam not now going to enter into a , re utlesnaa acquiesce in his (Mr. Diemelin) proposed. deft nee of the Queen's Colleges in Ireland, nor am I going , (Laughter.) to (homes the question whether the Irish landlord" acted Mr. CAYI.EY replied that the experience of last version with discretion 1.1 , humanity in the use of their legal right. ;showed him that if he once allowed an interruption of his But I point it out as a moat important subject that on a ipmeeedinge he might find himself obliged to suffer post- question of education, that on a (mention of the occupancy I ponement for four or five months. (Laughter.) llowever, of hind, the synod, which rotuisted entirely of Roman eatho , it was with difficulty he prevailed upon himself to yield to lie crelesiastice, from which all laymen were excluded— , the neptent which had just been urged. (Hear, hear.) But (hear, hcur)—thought it proper in this their first meeting to seeing the truth of the hon. gentleman,. observation., and Mad forth to the Irish people and to tell them what should ;111.0 considering his poeition, he thought he could not do he their duty and melte t. on these two subjects. (Hear, , otherwise than ask the hon. gentleman if, in the event of hear.) Now, I must ask the hon. and h anted rnemler for hie own motion failing, he emend then take op the malt Sheffield whether these are matters of entirely spiritual tax ?(e Hear, bear," and a laugh ) concern—(hear, hear)--whether this house and the govern- Mr. DISRAELI readily aerepted the concession ; and as meat of this country, can be entirely indifferent, when they it might condom to the convenience of the home, he would see that an archbishop is thus nanwel, purp o sely of course, , now state the nature of his motion—" 'fhat the severe die- instructed and aware of the intentions of Rome, and that trees which centimes to exist in the United Kingdom the first proceeding which he carried is to Mold forth to amongst that important class of her Majesty's subject", the odium an act of parliament passed for the purpose of edu owner- and oremment of land. which was justly lamented in eating the people of Ireland—for the purpose of giving th e eneeeb of her Majesty, renders it the duty of ministers a better education to the higher and middle classes in Ire to introduce without delay ouch measures as may be ethic- land, and to excite a hatred of the owners of land amongst tual for the removal thereof." (Hear, hear.) n great portion of the population of the country. (Rear, , SECURITY FOR ADVAZICEss AND INCUMBERED hear.) I think this is an instmee, at all events, to show ESTAT ES 11 REULNIT). that we have not to deal with lill n•ly spiritual concerns — Mr. SADLEIR wished to know from the right hon and (cheers)—that that interference which is so well known learned Attorney-Genend if he intended to introduce, be- in all former hiatory—clerical interference with the tern . ' fore Keehn the Securities for Advance's (Ireland) Bill, and pond and civil concerns of the state—ha. been attempted a hill to am end; the Ineumhered Estate. Act ? lint ne a system, but as a beginning—a hi ginning. no doubt, The ATTORNEY-OENEILAL replied it was the ham- to be natured by other meaeures, and to tie exert; el ou some , . tient of ministers to intneluee a bill for the minion. of future occasion with more potent effect. (Loud cheers.) , carrying into effect the changes refi reed to in the last There be however, one part of that transaction which meson, with SOUR' modification; and also some alterations merits particular remark, as it may have excited attention ' deemed necessary in the statute of the incumbered estates, on the part of many, and as I ins nit has excited my eaten . FlItE AT THE NEW HOUSE OF PARLIAMENT. tion. n,.. copy which I received of the address of the Mr. LAWLESS wished to know frog the noble lord the Synod of Thurlce was noted on the little page to be pith . member fur Tutnens a le, thee the cause of the late tire in liehed by authority, and purported tube eignedet the and by . the new house of Parliament has been certainly sneer- "the Archbishop of Armagh, l'rimate of Ireland." (Hear) tained ; and what precautions, if any, have been taken to I received from the lord Lieutenant of Ireland a commuica . prevent the recurrence of ouch a disaster? Why were the lion, stating that his attention had been drawn to the cireum . water-tanks not available on that occasion, which was the stance, that he had consulted those beet qualified to assist him camee that eu long an Mt, real occurred before any %tipply of in the construction of the law, and that they informed him . water was brouhrht to bear on the fire? (laughter.) that though they could apply the law if the Roman catholic • Lord SEYMOUR said he had meek inquiry as to whe- archbishop had assumed the title; of Archbishop of Armagh , thee the cause of the fire had been weertained, but was told in any document of which they were in posseemon, yet that that it heel not. Again that very day he had inquired of the appearance in print of that name would not be evidence ,Mr. Barry, but with no better selectee. It was known, in a court of law, and it was not likely that they would however, that it originated in a tower where there was obtain from the printer any evidence of the fact that I)r. stowed away an accumulation of wood and lumber. Cullen himself signed the document. They thought it With regard to the next question, he begged to observe that probable that he had not signed it, but that he had allowed every precaution had been taken to prevent disasters in his name to be affixed to it with his consent. (Hear.) On future, for the wood hail been ninnved. (Inughtere With hearing thow matter., I will now refer to some other occur respect to the qutetion why the water-tanks were not avail- mums which took place about the same time, not in this , able, he begged to state that there were two service's--a country, but on the continent of Europe. One was the cir high-water heni -e and a low-water service. (Laughter.) eutnstance which took place in the kingdom of Surdinia. There were finer tanks of high-water service, but it ap- Until Lately the law iu force in Piedmont was that which peered that two of them were nearly empty—(laughter)— had formerly been the law in most of the states of Europe, and the other two were plugged—(muchlaughtcr)—eo that namely, that ecclesiastics could only be judged by the ecele- 1 the water was not available. Ile then inquired with re- sisatical tribunals, and that the right of asylum was given to sped to the lose-water service, and he found that the low- certain churches and places belonging to the church. It water main, which ought to be charged. was not charged. appears that the Sardinian government and parliament as (Laughter.) The main was to be charged either from the sembled at Turin changed the law in this respect, and reservoir at Orange-street or from the reservoir at Conste made it similar to the law in other parts of Europe— tution-hill, hut neither of these reeerroir• were available. namely, that creleseuties should he liable to he tried by the (Laughter.) Ile then spoke to Mr. Barry on the subject, temporal and civil tribunals, and that the right of asylum who said he thought it necesent7 that more reservoirs and should be taken away. (Hear, hear.) One of the minis tanks should be mode—(laughter)—eo as to base a full ten who took part in the bringing in of that law was soon supply of water for the houses of parliament. (Continued afterwards taken dangerously ill. He was naked, when he laughter.) required the last rites of his church, whether he repented of ' ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS. the consent he had given to the new laws, called the Sic- Sir B. HALL said he wished to put a question to the careli laws. lie made a sort of reply which was not otitis . right hon. gentleman, the Secretary of State fur the Home factory to the Archbishop of Turin, and he died without Department, with respect to the Eceletiastind Courts of this receiving the sueraments of the church, as a person who was country. In the course of last session he :alluded to the out of ite pale. (Hear, hear.) That was an instance of appointment whithhad beenmadebythe Archbishop ufCan- the interference of spirit'ual power and censure fur the pur terbury to the reversion of a sinecure office in the l'rerogu- pose of controlling, of directing, of terrifying a minister of tire ('ourt, which was worth 10,0001., and likewise to the the crown, and a member of parliament, for hie conduct as appointment, by another dignitary of the church, of a child a minister of the crown, and as a number of parliament. under six years old to a similar office. (Hear. hear.) Now (Hear, hear.) I beg the house to observe all these things, he wished to know if it was the intention of the government for they are not altogether foreign to us. (Hear, hear.) to introduce any measure• which should remedy . these They may not be introduced amongst us this year or the Omen, and the abuses which existed generally en the next ; hut we are told, in the writing to which I have al- ecclesiastical courts of the country. (Hear, hear.) He luded. that the doctrine.; of the church of Rome are in also wished to know if it was the intention of the govern- flexible and unchangeable. (Hear, hear.) They may not 'Dent to introduce any measure for the purpose of dividing think it expedient to introduce such practices into this populous parishes into ecclesiastical elistnets. country; but they retain in their own hands the power of! Sir G. GREY said it was the intention of the government applying there maxims and practices, and of applying this to introduce a bill with regard to the first part of most formidable and awful spiritual power. (Cheers.) the question. With regard to ecclesiastical courts About the same time—it may be a little after—there ap generally the subject was under consideration, and a peered a rescript from Rome in Belgium, with regard to b i ll had beengn preparation for a considerable time. With the conduct of the government of Belgium. Now the go regard to the bill fur dividing populous parishes, the govern- vertu:tent of Belgium, from the commencement of Belgian client intended to'introdure one on that subject. independence, had taken a course more favourable to the Sir R. INGLI3e hoped the eight hon. gentleman did not independence of the Roman catholic body than anycountry in mean to imply that the Archbishop of Canterbury had Europe I believe have done, because they allowed the Roman appointed one of his family to the reversion of a sinecure of catholic ecclesiastical body to enjoy all endowmeute of arch -10,0001. The appointment was not to a sinecure of 10,000/. bishoprics, bishopric s, and benefices, and at the same time Sir G. GREI said his answer was not meant to imply an the civil government was without any powers of interfer admission of the facts with which the hon. member for nice with the nomination or conduct of the ecelesituitical Marylebone prefaced his question. The office was not a body. But it had been found that the secular education sinecure, and there was little probability that the person which the state professed to give had. through certain ex appointed to it would ever get into posseselon. pedieuta which the Roman catholic ecclesiastics adopted. CHOLERA IN JAMAICA. fallen very much into the hands of the bishops et' the In answer to • question by Mr. GOVLIIC11:4, church of Rome. The Belgian government, contesting in Mr. HAWES said the government would lay on the table great part of Roman cathoties, being anxious for the at an early day such information as they posseesed respect- good secular education of the people, haying taken means in the fatal and dimatrous ravages of the cholera in nos- to provide for the security of that secular education, their =lca. With regard to the steps to be taken in consequence conduct was impugned by the document which came from thereof, his noble friend was now in communication with Rome, and it was generally believed that that docu parties interested in the island, and he hoped that some merit was circulated at • particular time that it useful and practical measures would be introduced for the might have a great influence upon the elections, and edict of the sufferer.. that through such influence the Belgian Chambers might TRADE AND NAVIGATION RETURNS. be induced to come to another conclusion. (Hear, hear.) In reply to Mr. HER However, it wes much regretted, and when the Belgian Mr. LAI3OUCIIERE ;said that the monthly accounts re- minister was questioned on the subject, he produced a de biting to trade and navigation would be laid on the table on !patch, in which he desired that the Belgian minis at Monday. . Rome should inform the Secretary of State that the P ope Mr. BERRIES said that he would not proceed with the had been misinformed, that the facts were not such as had maim of which he had given notice on this subject in the been represented, and that no course would be taken which pionsat circumstances of the house. was hostile to the church of Rome by the government of ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. Belgium. (Hear, hear.) This provoked a great deal of h was moved and agreed to, that the house at its rising elution, but a great majority approved of the conduct of th• adjourn till Monday. government. (Hear, bear.) 'Now these were salts SUPPLY which immediately preceded what occurred in this coumby. The house having resolved itself into a committee of sups (Hear, hear.) In this country, at the end of September, 101, Mr. Ritaltat. la the chair, the paragraph ia the royal letters apatolic were bawd Rua Rome, under what was HOUSE OF LOHOS.—FRIDAY, FED. 7. Tkc I.OIW CLUNLILLOit took bit seat au the woolcack at 6 o'clock. - - AMENDMENT OF THE LAW. Lord BROUGHAM moved the second muting of the; hill f.r amending the law of evidimee, _end et the same time ststed the mune which he intended to pursue with v. poi to a bill whit h he then laid on the table for trans f. rring the business in Bankruptcy to She County Courts. The tilde loot entered into the advantages to be derived from the in .11AlarP, and conelicled by requesting the Lord nor to take charge of it. 1.0111) CHANCELLOR declined the proffered Eis.dir, on the ground that he hod not sufficient leisure to cuter into the intriescies of the bunkruptry laws, which were in gnat that neither suitors nor judges could compre- land them. Lord BUOCCITIAIf assured his noble friend that the bill was complete in ib minute detail., not a tittle needed altrratim.. All that it ri crtired was to be palsied. lir sras sorry. thertfore, to hear that the noble lord would not un dertake chary. of it, so well as to hi ar that the honkruptcy 112.* wi n' not understood rein by the judges. No wonder, then, that such ti lays arose in the Court of Chancery, for when the judo-• won• ignorant the result must be injustice. , I ord CItAN WORTiI admitted the importance of the T 0110.1171., but thotaiht the house was not yet in a position isl none to any del Wilt opinion on it. There could not he a doubt of tie satisfactory Vindlill7, of the County Courts, which hail conferred a grt-ct benefit on the country. 'the bill was then reScl • first time. lIIER MAJESTY'S ANSWER TO TAP. ADDRESS. 'I he cif (MINSTER, the Lord Steward of the Ilmtselte.lel, said he had the honour to inform their lord thir. that tier Majesty had hewn pleased very graciously to rec. ive the add? . .. of their lordship..' !posse, stud to return this answer: " I thank you for your loyal anal dutiful ad ds, 1 rely with nutfide nee on your assistance in main teasels? the rights of my enorn and the itidepenth nee of the nation, and I shall emilWIT co-operate with you in measures ealeuluted to improve men renethen our institutions." TIIF. EARL OF 31INTO ANI) TILE PAPAL BrI.L. Lord STANLEY said he svi-Mil to 4,11 the attention of the lied Pricy Seal to a epie.tiou put to him last Melee by another noble east, and to the ur.-wer then riven by the noble earl. 11r 14714 r-toed the noble earl to say, distinctly, that not only was he not in any &erne cognisant of the in tention of the Pope of Reines In Y. Irani to this matter, but that, although he had fn i i itent rommunications both with the Pope and the Cardinal Seen tar). of State, the subject was never broteMil between them; that no clemmunicatiim wan made to him whatever on the subject ; that no intima tion was wit.ru that such an intertion was entertained; and that, in ond of Met. he wa• p she tly nt n loos to under stand p from whence it.. rut:tour oriainattd; and ha contnidirted it, and said he was no! stoar of the intentions of the See of 'torne. If he (Lord Stanley) had been quite emetielent with regard to the fart hr would not have post palls' offering any observations on the subject to another day ; hot ho did not foil suflScie ntly lainfolent to make any observations *WM it. 1110 t‘totol the noble earl to say that he wan ot a kng to imagine what could possibly have given rue to such a belief. But the noble earl would roc gist him for saying when he sp:se of this a% being a report and a rumour, that it was not in rumour, hat that it WWI a statement made openly, and in an authoritative manner, by a person in a situation and possessing the means of the full, st infonnatioss. Now be aas nacre that this had no thing to do with the vi ity .4 tht palate who bad been chanted with the. superintende nee of the morality mod reli gion of the Roman ratio/ie.; but, on the one hand, white ins thouubt of the noble earl, as he vas hound to do, not only .no at count of the not& earl's pe-rsonal eharaeter, bat al.° on amount ..f his quaking, with all that weight and solemnity whirl, settathed In the declaration of a peer in his place in parliament—• declamtien which was univenelly g isi,ris,t t.. he of the same sanctity anal solemnity at , state m. :nude on oath ; on the other hand, it was an extra taalinary fart that a declaration was mail., by Cardinal Wiseman, made in his own 111011 i., and in direct prr! po s itioe to the stab annul made by the noble earl. He! repeated that he gave implicit eredence to the noble earl. • But that was not all. (Rear, hear.) Ile held in' his hand " An appeal, - as it was cancel. "to the re noon opal spas' feeling of the English people entthe aulnert i 4 the citholse Isierarthy, by t'ordinal Wt. man." In that appeal he steles'. " I have 131?..itily 111114111:1 to lord Mint.. Mang shown the twirl tor the Itit4areby, printed ohout two yea. ago. 'floe timunistauce may hive I•eaped his memory, or he Inlay not at the time hate attended to it. ha. ing snore hootortant matters in hi. mind. But as to the fart that his attention was called to it, and that be made no reply, I can have Ito. &wild." This sto.tentent was made by Cardinal Wiwinall at the of RCM, but the passage was contented its a It they * Atom from Vienna (41 3nl of Noventher, awl whirls (*ordinal Witentrin ar. dto e 44'410...50d to the noble lord at the head of the goternment, and • near nostnetoom at the noble earl. la that letter Cardinal Whe lan) our.. I take the liberty of stating that the =mum now promulgated wa • tust only ptepared, hut printed, thnl• ago, and a copy of it was shown to lewd Idiom It) du fries. oa uveguittak of an audience given to his lord-1 ship by hos twain..." sow, the tint !that he wished to 0.4 ' was • this statement was made ,less :y afi eying the charac ter of her Majesty's goys nument, stn.! deeply of sting tho Moor of an Individual unsold. r 01 that goverinnent. The •tato ment Was made, not as a rumour, not as an aUsgatioss, but as a fact within the knowledge of the writ. r, that the measure had hrs' do termined on, helm Knott!. and n cups of it shown to 'sad )(into. Now, he wishtd to koala whether, in nous( gnome.. of that quasi soffit toil contatunicat,on on tin part of Canlittal Wiseman, us , ! . step was taken 6, th e noble tool at the head of the go to ascertain from his contrail.• whether that statement was normal as made by the cardinal, and whether if that a munieation was malty, any steps were triton by the noble lord at the head of the government to thy:thaw ' the (*retinal of that fact, and to contradict the statement punk ? The Earl of SIINTO. who spoke ist so low a tone as to Ile almost inoselitge, we understood cos say that. with re gard to the stay, totem which appeared to hare been made by Cardinal Wiwnlan. Lord Jobli I:W.4111111a ma Otreasion to write to him for interntatioll as to the aei•unicy of that statement, Is eatsW W ae.al as he (Lord Mint.) saw it he tolltMonit at. dto him that no such iliftormation haul ever Iw ..n given to him. He believed, indeed he was pretty sure. that a letter which was after.; ants published in this new quiets, addressed by Lord John Russell. did state dis tinctly that be toed %moo) W. 14 neither a party to nor cognisant su ch proceedings. If Ise had aware of the noble l o rd's intention.' putting ;sus question' as to the steps taken by Lunt Jolla Russell he should have been able to give all aliz•acr, which of course it was not in his power to it. , now. Ile wished to put their lordship. , in powieseion of lel. dryer knowledge he had in sounezion wills this subject. IL might oboe that, before he went to Italy, a report had' certainly reached him. in 4.0121111011 with most of their Wed eln'', that certain iistenti tttt at that time of eottferring nn archipiscopal dignity in this country , and such a report had certainly come to his hearing before hr reached Rome ; hut during his residents. in Iturne he hail rennin to suppose that that intention had bent abandons 11. As to appointing bishops in this country, he could milt repeat that not one word had ever beta communicates! to (hint ut Rome of such an intention. (Hear, hem.) Ile hail loan) it said that on the tweed tttt of same contenation, probably on other busi ness, the Pope pointed out a roll of paw rs, and said, •. Throw eoneelll you," and that he (lawn Minto) appeared to take no notice of them. and made nu answer. Ile had no recollection of such a timuustance. It was very possi ble that in the mom of discussion on matters of more interest to him the Pope might hate said, "These concern you," and that the observation poes without notice ; but, ass he said before, he had no knowledge. no recollection whatever, of suet a thing having occurred, and, so far as anything being understood as even pointing to the subject. colas twine acquainted w ith the nature of tt, uot one word transpired. Lord STANLEY mid the tint part of the statement of the noble earl was perfectly satisfactory . . But what watt more extraordinary than that the noble earl in the part of the government should earning on a confidential com munication with the l'opc, ant( giving him, he dared say. paid advice with regard to the management of his affairs unit his country, and the Pope, in return, say "here it a matter that touches your country." the noble earl should' have been so wrappad up in the matters that courenied the l'ope that he had not time to attend to what concerned his own country. The Earl of MINTO said this was not an explanation given by him, but was what he understood to i.e au expla nation given by somebody else of something that happened. He could only say that he had no knowledge aud no treol lection of 'nothing of the sort; and he would "al, further— the noble lord said if in the discussion of any oilier subject the remark was made to him. " these papers concern you," he should have asked, what wart it that onwerucd Their lordship' then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—FamAy, FEB 7. Ths Ser.alts took the chair shortly before 4 o'clock. TUE ADDRESS.—HER MAJESTY'S ANSWER. Mr. LASCELLF.S appeared at the bar of the house, and announced that her Majesty had condescended the following gracious reply to the address voted her by that house : I hart received with much satisfaction your loyal and dutiful address. Your expression of attachment to my throne and Person is very gratifying to me ; and you may be umured of my determination to maintain the independence and uphold the wastitutional liberties of my people." (Cries of " Hear, bear.-) PETITIONS PRESENTED. PAPAL A001120110:4.—bV Sir R. H. INGLIS (screral), fen districts in Essex ; Mr. FRI.:WEN, from Sussex ; Alderman HUMPHERY, from Southwark ; MeMOODY, from Archdeacons". of Taunton, and other places ; Sir W. VERNER, from Armagh; Mr. PLUMPTRE, from LlTin Kent, Northamptonshire, and Surrey ; Mr. ITiDY, from Derby; Mr. NAPIER, from Dublin; C 44. SIBTHORP, from Lineobs ; 'Mr. MOODY, from Kent; Mr. MILES, from Midsummer Norton; the Mar quis of GRANBY, from Stamford; Sir B. HALL, from various metropolitan districts, bearing 40,500 signatures-- Sir Ales, HOOD, from three parishes in Somerset ; Sir R. G. BOOTH, from places in Sligo ; Mr. G. A. HAMIL TON, from places in Antrim, Kilkenny, and Tipperary; Mr. BANKES, from places and baptist congregations in Dorset; Sir W. VERNER, from 1,800 protestant in habitants of the city of Armagh ; Mr. EVELYN, front places in Surrey ; Mr. COCKS, from Reigate—against papal ad T=t . Dres.—By Mr. HUTCHINS, from Lyotington, fee repel of the eacia-dati ea paper. called the Fisherman's seal, altering the ecclesiasti cal arrangements which hitherto prevailed in this country—altering it from the arrangement of vicars ' apostolic, who were generally bishops in partitm , , and proposing to establish an archbishop and twelve bishops amongst whom the country was to be divided. ' (Hear, hear.) Sir, I shall hereafter state the view I have taken of that document. What I wish to state now, is that that change was made entirely without the cowent, I may say without the consent or knowledge of the govera . meat of this country. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Sheffield referred the other day to a speech of mine, and he may possibly have found that in August 1818 in the ' course of cliseussiqm I said in answer to an observation or ' question of the hon. member for Oxford, that I did not know if the Pope intended to create an archbi4mprie or bishoprics in the country, and that I had not i given my consent to any such division, and that ' I should not give my consent to the creation of any such division. (Hear, hear.) I had indeed been told some time before, by a private individual of the Roman ! catholic persuasion, that he believed some such project was ! on foot; and he asked me if I should approve of it, awl I . . replied that I should not. (Hear, hear,) I heard nothing more on the subject, and I certainly concluded that the government of Rome being a friendly government, having no hostility with this country, would never think it possible to create an archbishopric and bishoprics in this country, to divide the country into dioceses, without communicating at least their project. (Hear, bear.) I could not believe that it would be attempted to insult the Queen. (Loud cheers.) I may have la.-en like the ignorant Italian shep perd: trbeat, pram dicunt Itomem. Melibee, potash StuAtis ego bale novo' siruilem. (" Hear, hear," and laughter.) I may have thought un wittingly and imprudently, that the see of Rome would observe such relation , , such discretion, such euurtLsy in their conduct towards this state of England, as all other states widish were friendly observed towards each min r, or as she herself observed towards every otht r state. (Choi es.) I know it has been said in a letter of Dr. Wiseman, I think it has, if not been directly said, at least insinuated, that Lord Miato when at ltonte ga‘c some kind of sanction or consent to this proceeding. 'Lord Minto has given a positive denial to that stat.mient—(hear, hear)— and, as I heard the story, I understand that the utmost that is pre tended is that at an interview with which Lord Mioto was honoured by the Pope, the Pope observed, " there is some thing them , " pointing to a paper on the table. " which concerns ou.'• and that Lord Stint() did not look at the paper and did not make any observation on the subject. (Laughter.) Lord Miuto did not recollect the circumstance, and he may well have forgotten it if it took place. (Hear, hear) Bat even if it took place as related, it L. a most astonishing inference to say that he consented because there happened to be a paper on the table which had never been read by him. (Bear, hear.) Having stated this with re gard to the measures which have been taken, it is expe dient, before I proceed further, to state what has been the conduct of the different powers of Europe and what has been the conduct of our own country with regard to matters of this kind that have been propeacA to be imposed on them by the papal see. And, let me first say, it is of the nature of all ecclesiastical bodies to attempt to trench on the tem poral power (loud cheers), and that I have myself resisted with regard to the pouts stants of this country, and with re gard to the church of England itself, matters and proposals which, I think, tended to Five an undue power to ecclesias tics over the temporal subjects of the state. (Cheers.) But if this is true of one ecclesiastical body, it is more especially trueof the church of Rome. (" lieur, hear," from Mr. - • Roebuck.) I think this for two principal reasons amongst others. The one is, that the avowed infallibility of the church of Rome with regard to matters of spiritual doctrine give her an influence and power over the minds of those who belong to that communion greater than is praaesseal by auv other church. (Hear, hear.) But, in the next place, Rome has had her periods of power; she asserted her power in the middle ages, often contesting, perhaps, in favour of eivilisutiou or of learning, and at cer tain periods she was able I , y her ambition to obtain a place over kings and states which made them entirely tiuhicet to her authority. Sir, when this power was asserted in the fullest and most arrogant manner by Boldface the Sth, Vatted has recorded in that part of his work which relates ba this subject, that pontiff said to Philip the Fair of France, "It is fit you should know that you ore subject to us in temporal as well as spiritual things." Now, sir, the coun try which has had must to contest this ',elver, lasing a Ito man catholic country, which I should say has most success fully contested it, but at the some time amidst repeated dangers, is that very country of France. I have lately had oecisaion to read a most able treatise upon what are called "Gallivan Liberties," the liberties of the Gal. lican Church, but which, as the author most justly observes, are more properly the liberties of the tiallican state in respect to the church. I moan a work of M. Dupin. M. Dupin is at this time the Prosiident of the Legislative Assembly of France. Long before he held that post, long before he held any public post, hr was a man dis tinguished for his great logical powers, for his great legal learning, for his authority upon all matters to which his attention had been Own or ill` , studies dire eted. Now, sir, in the beginning of this work upon the liberties of the Gallivan church, M. Dupin makes some observations which are, I think, well worthy of attention. (Inc of these ob servations is, " that although Rome has for the present re laxed many of her pretensions, she never entirely loses sight of them; that she is a power which has fonrotten nothing, and has learnt much ; that she is a power which has neither infancy nor widowhood, and therefore can struggle with temporal states at all trims with means of which those states are not possessed ; that therefore it requires the utmost vi gilance, the utmost attention, to guard against the ag gressions of the church of Rome, and to preserve the tem poral liberties of a country with which she is connected. (Hear, hear.) Sir, he moles another observation which I think may perhaps he of some use to the hon. and learned member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck). Ile sa y s, that 'Milo sorhy, which is in this instance, he thinks, too presumptu ous, is of opinion that there is no need of particular lowa, or of the study ofjurisprudenee, on this subject—that her own arms arc quite sufficient to encounter any dangers to which the country may be for a moment exposed; but it is quite evi di nt, M. lhipin proceeds to say, that philosophers deceive themselves on this subect, fur, although their arguments are irresistible to philosophers, yet the great moss of men, whe ther from religious conviction, whether from habit, or whether from regard for the opinions of the world, are go semed by religious belief, and do not attend to the opinions and arguments of the pliilosophera. (Hear, bear.) Sir, after this introduction, M. Dupin states, in a very small book, but one which contains on immense quantity of learning on this subject, what the assertions of the liberties of France have been upon this subject. Now, some of these—and it is so with regard to other states which I shall mention—some of these relate entirely to appointments to bishoprics and other ecclesiastical offices which were endowed, or the holders of which received salaries and emoluments from the state. It may be a question whether these would apply to the ease which we now have, or to any case which we may have, be fore us in connection with this subject; but I observe that Mr. Bowyer dismisses all the precedents of this kind, and all those which refer to thins before the Reformation, as not applicable to the present case. Still there are maxims established in law, established by the dicta of the greatest judges, of Frauce, which are well worthy of our attention. One of these is, that no command of the Pope can he received in Franco without the ',Meet, or, in fact, without the direction of the sovereign. Now, this bill applies not only to questions about appoint ment to ecclesiastical benefices and bishoprics, but it applies generally to anything that may be ordered by the see of Rome. There is another maxim among those dicta which is likewise of great importance. In order to preserve the entire temporal independence of the Kings of France, it was laid clown that if any person should introduce any bull or instrument inflicting spiritual excommunication or cen sure upon any person in the service of the King of France, for things dune in the service of the King of France, all his goods and property should be forfeited to the crown. Sir, that was a very important and a very strong power, but one which was rendered necessary by the assumptions of Rome in France ; for it is argued, and most justly argued, by M. Duple, that if the King had had all his ministers and officers struck by excommunication he would have been totally powerless, and his orders would have been of no effect whatsoever. There, then, was one of the secu rities provided. It was likewise provided that with respect to any spiritual matters the directions and decrees of the Pope should nut apply unless coufirmed by a general coun cil. Such were the general maxims which formed part of the laws of France du the monarchy. The powers were exercised by things of France under the mos narchy—exerciwd by , Louis IX., a saint of the Iloraan catholic church, by Louis XI., by Henry IV., and by Louis XlV.—were exercised aa fully as they have been at any subsequent time. But there is a circumstance which is, I think, worthy of mention, because it answers the argument that, with respect to what has once been done, there can be no change or alteration. In the concordat made by Napo leen, at the commencement of the present century, the cir cumscription of dioceses was entirely altered by the autho rity of the civil government, in conjunction with the Pope, and those who under former settlements were legally and lawfully, according to the doctrines of Rome, the archbishops and bishops of the Roman catholic church in France, were entirely deprived of the rights which they porksowed. Now do not tell me after this that the papal power can never retrace its steps ; that what is done be Rome must remain for ever unal tered, and that * the circumstances of the times, and the resistance which may be made by a nation to the solemn in struments of the Pope, arc not to be taken into considera tion, because Rome will not listen, and will not change. (Hear, hear.) I proceed next, sir, to what was—l am sorry to say was—the law of Austria. (Hear, hear.) Austria, too, was a great Roman catholic power, but the laws which she made were of the most stringent description, with re spect to the introduction of papal bulls, with respect to papal appointments, with respect to papal censures. She declared that the civil power was supreme and sovereign that nothing whatever should be admitted, without it had the placet of the Emperor—that no appointment should be good which had not that confirmation; that no intercourse Should take place between the bishops of the empire and the Pope without the knowledge and sanction of the civil power ; and that every document by which it was proposed to indict spiritual censures or excommunication should be submitted to a mixed body of clergy and laity, and should not be valid without their concurrence. Sir, this shows, then, with regard to another great Roman catholic power, what was 31 jealousy and what was the result of experience with regard to the en croachments which the church of Rome had attempted to make upon the temporal power of Austria. (Hears Ilea;2 Sir, havincstated the practice of these two great cannel peweeofl4‘rope, I will not go far iota say Of dm others ; but I will state generally, that there is no Roman catholic I bull" or such writings. Accordingly we might have proceeded power, so far as we have been able to ascertain—before I say to prosecute, though with the probebility which I have stated this, I will say that the Emperor of Austria in the last year, as to the result, under the statute to which I have referred. • lelo, has made a new constitution in respect to the clergy, ! But, then, a further question arises. If those statutes have • and that he has permitted intercourse by hulls between his ! to a certain degree fallen into disuse, would it or would it reclesiasticel subjects and them without the knowledge of', not hr advisable to make a new enactment on the subject the government—l am afraid this is an imprudent of the introduction of writings Irma Rome. Now, this is an concession on the part of the temporal power— ! important part of that great subject to which the hon. (hear, hear)—but I was Finillif on to my, with regard to' member for Becks alluded. I must own it appears to me the Roman catholic powers of Europe, that there was no one ! that you could alter the law hat in two wayo. You might of them, an far as I an aware, that would admit any bull to I re-tortet the law, making a general prohibition, ouch aa be brought into the country without the previous sanction there is in the statute of Edward 111., and such as diets in of some cis il authority of the state. Such is the ewe, as we the laws of some of the countries of Europe, emoting that have been told very lately, with regard to Portugal. The no bulls should he introduced pnjudicial to the K ing or to minister of her Majesty at Lisbon inquired of the minister the welfare of his people. That ss one course. But that of her Faithful Mmeoty, and was informed at once that she course would, I think, leave the law exceedingly vague.— weeld never permit any bull to be published and circulated (hear, hear)—and it would always he doubtful whether or at Lisbon to which she had not given her previous sanction. not any particular writing fell within that &scrip- But now, sir, with regard to the Protestant powers ; we Ron. Sir, there is miuther velem which might have hive inquired of the Protestant governmental whether they . been taken , and it is one welch has not only been wend have admitted a hull or writing of the Pope creating adopted, but has been very generally sulopted, by the tonn a new sec within their territories. We are told by Prussia, tries of the continent of Europe. It is that of saying that the ftlmitest of these powers, that although with respect to every hull and every writing of Rome shall be submitted to her 'tom= catholic territories she has not concordats, but some civil authority, and shall not have currency, or be agreements with the Pope, by which the appointment of allowed any force, without either some meitive sanction or bishops is regulated ; yet, when it was proposal at Rome . the absence of any objection to its publieation. Now Ido that a Bishop of Magdeburg and some other bishops should I not say that there is such a paramount objection as should be created in the protestant territories of Prussia. Prussia , prevent the legislature trout adopting a measure of that immediately referred to the articles of the treaty of West- ' kind, but at the same time I teatime conceal from myself' ' plualin, and refused totally and entirely her consent to the that very great evils would !dhoti it. (liver. hear.) With Introduction of such functionaries. Sir, there was an respect to a certain clam of hulls—it cannot be denied that agreement Pons' 20 yeses ago, I think, between the King of the regular die ipline of the leonsui catholic church, the in the Netherlands and "tome, with respect to bishoprics in tenet! concernsof that church, very often cannot be regulated some cities in Holland ; hut the agreement, or conconlat, without the introductionte writings of that kind faom Rome. which was made intbia respect excited an much indignation But then there are writings of taw+ a deeeription ns to be in liollaitd that it has never been carried into effect, and I considered by some permassa to be d: nee to the state, remain.: a dead letter to the present day. (Hear, hear.) ! which some permit. may Ink upon aoconstituting en undue Well, sir, what is at least one inference which may be I interference with the temeoral Melee of the kingdom, but drawn from the narrative that I have given? I which others, although they de nut approve of them en think this inference may be drawn, that there is tirely, yet consider to be entirely within the scope of reli- MI country in Europe. however great or however small, Mous communications bete cen the head of the catholic no country which values its own independence, upon which church and the persons of that communion. (Hear, hear.) the Pope would have attempted to pass this insult which he I cannot hut think, that if euy diieretiam were Waged in the hue offend to the kingdom of England. (" Hear, hear," Secretary of State, or in it hoard appointed for the purpose, and chem.) In some instances the matter is regulated by he or they would he brought bite frequent discussions us to treaty between the two powers, sand everything that takes the propriety of allowing leper, to be punished which bad place is done according to the provisions of the treaty. In emanated from the head of the Roman catholic church. In other instances it has been proposed to introduce into many Marine, ait would be thought that the Secretary of protestant countria x hiohopries, and when permission has State had dealt unfairly by the It 1111 l an catholic hmly, while been refused the Court of Rome has at once desisted front in other instances it would be mid that he had allowed its intention. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I now come, then, to the to be published writings which were prejudicial to the character of the document which has been introduced into state, and thus, Uko other metiers in this free country and this country from Rome. That document purports to issue free parliament, the question would he made the without the smallest reference to the fact of the United "abject of party delete and of party hostility. (Hear, Kingdom being an independent state, from the plenitude bear.) I own I cannot but think that there would of the Pope's power. It is not made a question, from begin- be very great evil in introducing such an additional ning to end, whether there can he any authority or stock of laritating topes into our parliamentary power existing in this country, the consent of which debates. (Hear, hear.) therefore, after ninth delibera ought to be °Aid, or whose lawful power thande be ree tion on this subject, after very anxious discussion., with a "`Meted in the document which is thus issued. (Hear.) view to come to the bat possible decision that could be Not a wore of that kind from beginning to end. The formed on the subject, we have thought it best, neither / archbishop is named—named from this metropolitan cit to propose to repeal the statutes I have mentioned, nor to (hear, hem)—where the Queen holds her court—(hear propose such alteration er substitutt sea those to which I where she meets her parliament. Other bishopric*, of er have alluded. I come now to the inimetliate question of sees, are pretendeil to lie created in various parts of tee the amumption of titles, mid I think it is useful, while on country which arc now under the established behove of the this subject, to refer to that which was given as the reason for church of England. In the document which he owed in the prohibitory clatters in the Roman Catholic Relief Aut. pursuance of the letters of the Pope, Dr. Wiseman declares Sir Robert Peel, in inteuducing that great measure, spoke at once, " We govern, and shall continue to govern, the to the following effect, roopreeing the teatime affecting teemed of Middlesex, ESSCS. and Hertfordshire, together ecclesiastical titles, " A pnu•tice lots of late ocemtienally with five other creme's, and," lest anything should he prevailed in Ireland which is calculated to give great, and omitted, •• the adjacent islands." (Hear.) Now, sir, I cannot I may odd, just offence to protestanta. 1 allude to the pew ee.: in these words anything but an assumption of tire, on the part of the Roman catholic prelates, I.i' W.UIIII - sovereigety. (Cheers.) It is not a dime ing the names and title, of the bishops of the church of tion that a certain per-on should govern the persons Etteland. I prepare that the telt', which belong to the belonging to that communion, situated within a certain bishops of the church of England shall nut be assumed by district, and that he should afford them the benefit of his the bishopsuf the ltomtm eatholie church. Bishops , 'call them, spiritual function.. These English counties are territories, for bishops they are, having bee their right of ordination subject to the Queen's dominion, and the only . excuse, aeknowledeed as valid by our eau churele but I maintain when any excuse is of eerie is that there are certain forms that it is neither eamay nor deem -one to use the style and tither belonging to all documents (laughter)—and that it which properly belong to the prelates of the established is according to the forma of the church of Rome that this church, and ouch essumetitno shall be altogether prevented . conniption of dominion over elidillerd, Essex, and Hert- in future." (A laugh.' Acconlinely that provisiuu was fordslaire, is made by this agent who is sent here by a inserted in the Catholic Relief Act. and I find that in the fon ien prince. (Cleave) Why, sir, that may be • Ido following yet there was puleithed a pastoral address., from not deny their knowledge of their own forms , but there is the ltoman catholic erchbioloms and be in Ireland to another form with which I have been acquainted, which is the laity of that communion, and this asides speaks in " Victoria by the. Grace of Ond—(loud cheers)—Queen of very warm terms of the kindness which the legielature had Great liritain and Ireland "—(rncwed cheer")—and it shown in pusaing the Emancipation Act. I think it is anapests, to me that the one form is totally inconsistent worth while elm at the present time, when the language with the other. (" Hear, hear," lind reiterated cheers.) which hits loen used by Anhltishop Cullen is not quite so Take which of them you like. (Hear, hear.) Say that reopectful to the crown sod hgelature of tee country, to the Pope is to be the severeign of this country, and that any real a little to mind what waa the universal :sentiment of person whom he steels is to govern the Englioh counties, twenty-Isis Remain catholic arilibishoes mad lesatops in 1830. and that loyalty will be shown by paying obedience to that After congratulatiug themselves that the storm had at length person. That is a course of which I can well conceive ; subeided, anal that peace and justice were shout tooled thew but I cannot conceive that any person who is bound by blessings on the county, they said that the K ing,whien they . loyalty to Queen Victoria can admit that any authority but were hound in loyalty to honour, was entitled further to her own eon got ern thee counties. (Cheers, partly - , as all the honour and gratitude they can bestow; that the light ; appeared, ironical.) I kunw not what the hon, gen- future by its etiolate had raised teem (the people of Ireland) denten mean, but if they mean to say that this is an outho- from a prostrate conditem, giving them equal rights and city merely aemined, mill that it cannot be enforced,' reply privilege, with their fellow-aulembe and that it also wee that 1 know that pertietly well, but I owe uo gratitude or entitled to their gratitude and love. 'I hey exposed a con thanks to those who do not attern'it to enforce authority'ldea hope that the feelings of the people would lie in over Middlesex , because I know that it is utterly impowilife unison with their own, and that regret and adlai mace to for them to enforce it. (Laughter.) It is mete enough the ematitutiou and laws of the eountry, and attaeliment to , for me that them is the assumption; and if any per- the pereun and government of their most gracious were . son had come during the time when the Pretender reign, would be manifested by the entire people. I think ; resided ut Rome and said, " I have been lately named Lord that so far as these es ntiinenta are emicereed it would be Lieutenant of Middlesex by the Stuart Icing, and I govern well if Bishops Cullen mid Mellitle would refer to the ten . —(laughter)—the county or Mid shoe% by his authority ;" timents tiro expressed by their pretleceettra, to WI! what , I know perfeetly well that the King of , England's lord lieu- loyalty to the crown and what attachment to the legislature s tenant would have kept his authority unscathed, and that was felt in 1830, and to comities: , whether such eunduct was . the usurper would have failed in his object ; but still I not well worthy of imitation. (Hear, hear.) But them . ghoul(' have nail that that wax au unwarrantable ""sump- bishops did not peas without noticing the prolate . non, justly subjecting the person making it to any penalty tory clause. They mention it in this way —" We which he might thereby have incurred. Now, sir, I must rejoice in the result. nuardless of those provisionsrefer for a lOW minute; to what has been dome in former which injuriously affect ourselves, and not only times—and in Roman catholic times—in this very country, us but thew; religious orders which the catholic church lam with respect to the power of Rome. I find that in thew nourished in her beaten since the time of the ;trestles. . thud our catholic ancestors were at jealous as we could be Thees clauses were, we believe, narrates not required by in these days of the enernaching power of the Pope. reason or sound policy, but by prejudices holding captive ; (Hear, hear.) I find that the king in the days of C'fi II the 111.111dS ot honest men, and they alit net prevent us i Wahines the Conqueror, though he made concessions to the rejoicing at the good which hens brell afteeted foe the men . Roman eve, would not allow any censure or extommunica- try." (Hear, hear.) They did not, therefuto, while refer , lion to pros red without his authority. 1 find that when tees tog to those proviohnut ask for their repeal, or do anything ; were created, they were created by the authority of the more teen express a missing regret that such clauses should . King, mid not by the authority of the Pope. I fine that in have been introduced. It teems to me then, that if such . the time of Edward I. a person who had procured an ex- were the provisions of tee 'teller Act, and if those: provisions . communication against another person was proceeded were posed without objection from the !Wean catholic ; onetime in the King's courts ; that the judges declared that body, but on the cinerary were et:sleet-41 wit!, submission his procuring that excommunication without the consent of and obedience by the Itontan catholic bishops in Ireland, the King was no less titan high treason, and that it was that we should be perfectly justified in prem.:sing prove ' only on the supplication of his councillors that the King re- oions of a similar nature with regard to the resent atreurnp c trained from having that very sentence executed. Now the tion of titles in this country. For I consider that whether s persons who were concerned an carrying on that trial and in the assumption had been that of the title of Archbishop of r condemning that person were no protestant*, d:-trustful of Canterbury, with jurisdiction as ordinary over Bud arch the Roman catholic faith or indisposed to Russian catholic diocese, er as in the preeent CUM', Westminster with a new r tenets; they were all strict believers in the Ronan catholic diocese caused out, the differ nee is immaterial to the quest ; faith, lint they would not allow any usurped power to come tion, either being equally an assumption of oupreinacy and , into England. (Hear, hoar.) So likewise in the time of sovereignty which ought not to he permitted by law. , Edward 111., a petition was presented to the King to (Clears.) But there are other questions which it elmely ; present letters, belle, processes, reservations, instruments, and immediately connected with the aseumption of them , or any writing whatever, to the prejudice of the Kiug or his titles. It is believed, and I think not without foundation, people. Be it observed this is not, as Mr. Bowyer Sari that one reason teethe elsangec from viearo apostolic, under entirely confined to endowments directly connected with whom the Roman catholic* have enjoyed the free t. xereite ; the state ; this refers to all them relations between man and of their religion, and been satisfied with for '2OO year., into man which the spiritual power of Rome was in the habit of the new dioceses is not only to make an assumption, calcu interfering with and controlling, and it was for this lewd in mane degree to lower the state in England, but purpose, tht !Terre, that our catholic anteater+ thought it also for the purpose of exercising by such no anti a gnat necessary to take measures against the power of home. coutrul over the large endowments which are in the hands The statutes on that subject are statutes which arc well of certain Roman catholic trusts in the , country. (Ilea:, known, and have been frequently quoted before, especially hear.) Now I do not thick it would be fitting that we the statute of provisors and that of pramiunire—the statute should allow that control to be exercised by any of the 16th of Richard 11. I shall not refer at length to of the bottlers of those titles which we are about to prohibit ; those statutes ; I merely refer to the subject to show that in and therefore I shall, if the house give me leave to bring in those times there was a very constant, vigilant, and, I be- a bill, introduce in it chutes providing that all gifts to per lieve,very who, jealousy with r.apect to the power of Rome. sons under these titles shall be null and void ; that any act (Hear, hear.) I will now proceed to state the course which done by the holders of such titles shell also he null and the government took, on being made aware of the publica- sold ; and that, further, that property bequeethed or given lion of those letters, and the measure which I propose to to such persons and for their purpose., shall puss at once to introduce. The first proceeding which the government the crown, either to caste trusts in harmony with the in took, on coosidering these letters, was to ask the law officers tendon of the donor, or tap be otherwise deposed of, SA may of the crown whether they came under any known, law, seem best to the crown. I do not think that powers less and what, in their opinion, would be the effect of a prole- extensive than these would satisfy the justice uf the ease. cation against those who had introduced these letters (Hear, hear.) For I am aware that, in severel caws there apostolic. Sir, the o pi n i o n th a t was gi ve n to the has been a transfer of property from those who have hitherto government by the km officers was to the effect— held it to others named either directly from Rome, or per lewill not quote the words—thatetith regard to the assume- son. assuming certain title s :IS bishop's of the lemma church. lion of the particular titles assumed w ith reference to the I was told only the other day that a priest living near the present state of the law and the existing statutes, they did sea coast was deprived of an income which he had not think that, either by the common or by the statute law, long held, being informed that by ecclesiastical authority, the assumption of those titles was illegal, or could be pro- it has been found by that authority, that the income tweeted with effect. But with ree p t et t o a further question, could be more usefully employed for other purposes. (A they said that the introduction of ktters apostolic was in laugh.) Now, I think we should do everything in our their opinion an offence; that it was an offence which could power to protect the catholic laity against such aggression be prosecuted, and that in their opinion the judge would —(hear, hear)—and the chose which I propose will, in • declare that the introduction of thew- letters apostolic was great measure, do so. If it %hall be necessary to introduce unlawful, and subj e ct to p ena lty ; h u t they added, going other provisions for this purpose, the matter will be at undoubtedly beyond the mere law of the case, that the tended to by the Attorney-Geueral in the bill he proposes statutes which prevented the introduction of any bull or to introduce with regard to charitable trusts, in which any writing flom Rome bad not been for a very long period of further security that may be necessary can lie taken to time put in force, and that if the government proposed to guard the catholic laity from what threatens to be a transfer prosecute for the assuming of these titles, on the of their property to hands into winch it Va., never intended ground that it was the introduction of a bull or to have passed. There is a more difficult question which writing from Rome, the topic of long dismic, amounting perhaps the hon. and learned member for Youghal may almost to tacit conecut,would probably cause such a presecu- raise, with regard to the means which have heen employed tion to fail. Sir, I think this house will be of opinion that to obtain a transfer of this property—l mean the spiritual it was not desirable for the government to instruct its law censures directed against the priests of we 'lonian officers to institute a prosecution, by which the authority of catholic church. That is a question far mere deft the government might have been greatly weakened, and cult to deal with, and can hardly be ruched un no useful effeet have been produced. (Hear, hear.) But less I adopt the spirit of some of the ancient I will say further, sir, that un this, the first occasion on laws to which I has - e referred. In the present hill which we thought we had reason to complain of the intro- Ido not propose to introduce any provision of the kind, assumption of any title taken not only from any dioccee now duction of bulls, I should with very great reluctance have what I propose being, in the first place, to prevent the existing, but from any territory or place within the United without hin drnoatif,,,w.liadenapitparhtd.tr with th so lO rd ng ered don a e p r t ith c ou u t tio l n etor the tacit consent of the goeernment. But there is Kingdom. (Hear, hear) This provision ia. in conformity a further difficulty, and I with to state to the house w ith "proposal made by the Bishop of London, in answer the whole difficulty upon that subject, with regard to the sal- to one of the addresses presented to him. He said that ho tutee prohibiting bulls or instruments from being introduced. thought we ought not only to prohibit the ;assumption of No doubt, according to the statute of Richard 11., in eer- titles derived from existing Kea but also their atteum Won Min cases the introduction of a bull, and the assumption of with referee 1 ,I 1 et to any p ace within the United Kingdom. power by virtue of a bull, would be a very grave My proposal ere,. with this suggestion, and perhaps I offence, and would subject the offender to the may mention in addition, that when I informed the Arch len of all his property. That was decided in bishop of Canterbury , that it was • de not listen by govern tlM case of Lawler in the time of lames the First, mei n t s , institute te a proweution, he said, " I do not expect lawler having procured writings from Rome by which he government to institute a prosseution, hut what I do ex pct was made a vicar apostolic, with jurisdiction in the diocese is that some legislation should take place the PL subject." on et Dahlia, and harem exercised turisdiction in various I 'thine . owes by virtue of the powers which e had received. There be • an insult to the crown, an interference with the rights Y likewise a statutory prohibition—to,l believe, the lawyers and ' pmil eges of the established church in this country, era agreed—in the 13th of Elizabeth as it now stands with and an attack upon the independence of the Queen our respect to the introduction of writings from Rome. In the sovereign. (Hear, hear.) In the other clauses to which I year 1846, that part of the statute which affixed the punish- have alluded, I think we shall obtain security that persons meat of treason to any offence of that nature was repealed, will not obtain p session under these titles of any trust but it was declared in taking away the penalties, that the property which otherwise might have been made over to repeal merely extended to the penalties, and that there was them. I have now stated the effect of the bill I propose to nothing in that repeal to render it lawful to introduce such introduce. It is, as the boast will see, entirely different I