The Express. — London, England, 1853-04-09 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT HOUSE OF LORDS.—FRIDAY, APRIL 8. The LOUD CsiescuLton took his seat at 5 o'clack. PETITIONS PRESENTED. AtOrtairlON or laws INTO PAIILIAWINT.—By the Earl ot RODEN. from l'ortarlington, from Team, from Le nester, and from places in the counties& nf Armagh, Wexfonl, and Louth; by the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, ft m Mosetan ; against. MAYNCsirtt.—by the Earl of ItODEN, from Cavan; and the Earl of SHAFTESBURY ; against the grant to StinntrY CuouTs (*wet sou; Lord CAMPBELL, from Sttiliag, praying fur a to lUT6IIIII the, courts.. !trot-erne (IngLaxo).—By the E irl of RODEN, pray ing for an improved registry in Ireland. METROPOLITAN IMP.:OVEMENT (REPAYMENT OCT Oh'THE CONSOLIDATED I , UND) BILL. This bell (mem the manioc of the Earl of Geeevieen), was read • second time. NAVIGATION LAWS. The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH nee to present • petition loam the muster mariners, mates, and seamen of Hartlepool, against any repeal of the provisions of the act of the 12 Pict, with respect to the Lumber of f Tei.to vostneas is British ships. The peti tioarrs had been greatly alarmed ley reports which bail reached them that it was the intent,n of the government to propese as alterati in in the act of parliament for rept. Utica this mutter. By the law as it stood at present, any ship employed in the coasting trade must b. manned by British seamen, while ships in the Awn in trade west have three-fourths or their crew British subjects. This was the regulation which the petitioners understood that it was in tended to alter, and against any alterative they entered their most salemu protest. A. Novi etion was given to the interests of capit d, they desired that the house should like wise protect the rights of labour. Now, upon looking into the details which had been hid before their lordships,' and eensidi rime the position of the mercantile marine of this country, the house was not in a position to trifle with the existence of our maritime trade by carrying out provisions which may have the effect of diminishing the number of seamen. Ile (Lord Ellen borough) kw w that sine* the alteration made in the navi gation laws six or seven years ago, there had been a very great increase in the commerce ef the cs uutry—(hear, hear)—sod that there had been • very large increase in the navigation. But that appeared to be only halt the question. The real questiou was this, had the increase of the navigation of our own land been equal to the increase of foreign navigatian ? Mach had been said upon the sub ject of the number of our Aim, but on reference to the returns it would be found that in no ion year since 1816 had the number of vessels built in B h ports equalled what it was in 1839, 1810, 1911, or 1812. Again, upon look ing to the ips of vessels belonging to the foreign trade entered inwards during the years 1811 and 1815, and com paring it with the average of the years 1840 and 1841 (which were the last in the returns), he found that the tonnage of this country had increased 21 ler cent., While the tonnage of foreign vessels earning to this country had increased 10 rer cent. Ile found also that the total in crease of British tonnage was 840,000 time, while the total increase of foreign tonnage was 1,098,000 tons, so that the actual increase of foreign tonnage was 258,000 tons more than the actual increase of British. Now, the petitioners stated that their particular branch of employment—viz., the collier trade—had decreased, and that the decrease was not less than 364 tons. This of course entailed a corresponding diminution in tee number of the seamen employed. In regard to this question of the number of British seamen, he (Lard Ellenberough) would call their lordships' attention to • return made about November last, in which, he be lieved for the first time, a truthful statement of the actual number of seamen belonging to this country was made. It appeared that the total number of seamen, exclusive of Mts. ters, actually employed in the coasting trade was about 43,000. In addition to this there were about 9,000 employed in trade described as partly British and partly foreign—a trade confined to the Channel and the ports on the other aide of the North Sea. The 43,000 men employed in the coasting trade would always be under their lordships handy, together with half ot those employed in the trade partly British and partly foreign. Within a fortnight or three weeks the whole of these latter might be available. The number of seamen employed upon the foreign trade was 90,000, of which • pcnion must always be in this country. If they assumed that this portion was 1-12th, then the number always present would be about 7,500 ; and theref ire, taking all classes, their lordships bad ready under their hand. about 60,000 seamen. Bat the house would observe that they would have the smallest number of seamen under their hands during the summer, and that was precisely the time when there was the greatest probe bility of an enemy coming against us. That being the case, awl it seeming to him (the Earl of Ellenborough) that it would be highly imprudent to adopt any measures by which this stash number of seamen would be diminished, he thought it right to state to their lordships what the present circumstances of the petitioners were, and the house should then consider whether it became the legislature to make the aLerations against which the petitioners protested. These poor earn made shout eight voyages& year. For each of these Tomes they received a sum of from 31. 10e. to 41. 10s.—that is, upon the average, 321. a year. Their ex penses were as follows: Clothes about 101. a year, shoes, 3/. ; house rent, certainly not under IL ; coals, about 21. ; water rate 10s. Although supplied with provisions on board, they bad to find for themselves tea, eaffee, and soap, and this could not be done for less than 24 10s. • year. The total amount of these expenses was 231., which being deducted from the hotel of their receipts left • sum of about 9/. a year, or lees than 3s. 6d. a week, to maintain their homes cad families. Now the object of the measure, which the peti tioners understood was in the contemplatioa of her Ma jesty's government, was to aid shipowners by diminishing the wages of seamen. But when their lordships conaidered the number of oar seamen and the small sum which they received to support their families, could they say that it was fit, or just, or proper, that an ende venue should be made to increase the profits of the shipowners, by taking away from the poor pittance which remained to the seaman ? Bach • course was to the last degree impolitic, sod he re petted to inform their lordships that he had observed an amount of strong feeling and excitement in these men, against conduct which they conceived to be unjust. Ile had observed this feeling with great pain and some apprehension. It was not satisfactory to him to hear British seamen talking cf • determination to adopt the service of a foreign state. It had been said that nothing was more difficult to remove than man. They had, however, seen great revolutions in inion in modern time, and now it would appear that uo thing was easier than to transfer from one country to an other • large portion of population. The noble earl dreaded an exodus of the British names. He per fectly admitted all the general advantages which arose from the operation of free trade under ordi nary Circumstance., but these advantages ought not to enter into calculation is a question which involved the stational security. And this question did involve the security of the ratios. It was their duty to maintain, as far as ramble, their maritime strength, in order to prevent the great mischief and danger of an invasion. lie (the Earl of Ellenborough) was not prepared to bring into the service of this country the hired foreigner. It appeared to him that in public as in private life then were things more valuable than money. They could not estimate in money the tabu of the hearts of British seamen, of men whom they might require in the hour of danger. Ile dared to say that the Roman detainees who first invented the hiring atlas Oaths, thought that he had achieved a great triumph of &uncial economy. He bought soldiers in the cheapest market, but he isesatiouslysold the empire he was bound to preserwellear, bear.) Ile (Lord Ellenborough) trusted that their lo rdships would not have to regret a similar error ; bat that, disregarding • small additional profit to one party of persons engaged in mercantile transactions—however iallueatial they might be, sad however much they might hang together—they would decide this question with a view only to the interest of an honest body of men, to whom they had had recourse upon former occasions under circum stances of danger, and to whom they might again under simile eitcunicances have recourse, it they would only treat them justly. But they might depend upon this, that it was not safe to act towards large bodies of men with in justice, and that there was no loss this country could sus- Min comparable to the loss of the hearts of one of the best and most useful portions of its population. (Cheat) Earl GRANVILLE thought that, instead of the intended alteration being detrimental to British seamen, the slight competition which It would cause would be beneficial to their character. In feet, the real difficulty connected with the coasting trade was how to enable it to compete with the present increased facilities of inland communication ; and the only way to do this was to give the shipowner every possible means to enable them to employ the largest possible number of ships. Lord COLCHESTER said it had been stated that 20,000 British seamen were in the American service. Why was this ? Because they received in that service higher wages them in their own. Let them get the same wages,' and those men would enter our own service; and let not the shipowner possess the power to go into the cheaper mar ket for that labour which his own country could so well supply. Earl GREY could not avoid entering his protest against the assertion which represented the measure which would shortly come before them, as • measure of injustice to the British sailor. After a few words from • noble lord (wheee name we could not ascertain) expressive of an opinion, that if we permitted foreigners to have the same advantages as our own mariners, the latter would soon leave the country, The Duke of ARGYLL said it was not proposed on the part of the state to engage in the service of the country mercenary *Ooze, and that so far from this change being made by the government on the ground of decay in our naval spirit, they brought forward the proposition, being convinced that such was the naval capacity of this country, that it would be promoted instead of impeded by competition with all the world. (Hear.) On the general question respecting the navigation laws, noble lords oppo- site entertained the same misgivings as they now appeared to enteitsin on this question. They then thought that we should be driven from the seas by the rapid increase in navi gation of other countries, and as noble lords opposite did then rot, rtain doubts—doubts which a few years had set at rest —and as they did not then feel confidence in the Ca pacity and energy of the shipping interest, so did they not now feel contelenee in the capacity and the enetgy of our shipping marine. The government had formed a higher estimate of Pie rapacity of our merchant seamen. (Hear, hear.) They believed that they posed all those virtues which tho noble earl had so well described, but they be lieved also that we were so essentially a maritime people above all nations of the earth, that we need not fear open and free competition with all or any of them. (Rear.) The subject then dropped. The Poor Removal and Local ASSCSOIent Dill was read a second time. THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 9, 1853. he had received his information from Sir Elbert Peel. The archbishop did not contemplate the secolarishig of the clergy , and he (Lord J. Russell) did not remember that any such contingency was mentioned by him. As to the other point the Archbishop did not take on himself to answer for the church of Scotland. He believed that either the Archbishop or Sir It. Peel had communicated with the Commissioners of the General Assembly of the church of Scotland, who ropy tented that church, sod who had autho rised the negotiation. Mt. lIICHE said that if it appeared that by law the Con solidated Fund would be liable is any of the c'ergy ap pointed subsequent to the passing of the bill Me gave notice that after the third reading be should move the reinsertion of the third clause, in ora'r to girt a security against such claims. THE PICTURE CLEANING AT THE NATIONAL GALLERY. Mr. SEYMOUR begged to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the government will give orders that until the select committee shall have reported to the house on the National Gallery, no cleaning of the pictures therein coa -1 Mired, except careful dry dusting, shall bs permitted. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he was Mt cognisant of the circumstances referred to in the extract Past read until he was made acquainted with them by the Martesy of the hon. gentleman. The bon. gentleman wu Mare that it had been the pleasure of parliament to direct that the care of the pictures in the National Gallery should be placed not in the government, but in trustees appoir ted for the purpose. He had not had en opportunity of making himself muter of the circumstances, but he had instituted an inquiry, and he bopcd on an early day, perhaps en Mon day, to give a full answer to the question of the hon. gentleman. CLERGY RESERVES (CANADA) BILL. Sir J. PAKINGTON gave notice that on Monday, be fore the third reading of the Clergy Reserves (Canada) Bill he should repeat the qiwation he had put this evening to the noble lord (J. Russell) with regard to the opinion of the litar officers of the Crown. BOROUGH OF RYE. Sir J. PAKINGTON wished to put a question to the sight hon. gentleman the member for Deoonc art *ith re paid to a notice he hod given for a motion for the issuo of • mew writ for the borough of Rye on Thursday next. lie wished to correct a misstatement which the right hon. gen tleman had made in giving his notice and presenting a pe tition signed by a large 1111 tuber of the electors of Rye. That petition was directed against one presented by him (Sir .1. Pakington), and it was stated that the latter was signed by very few electors, and those principally in the employ of the gentleman who was a candidate for the borough. Now, although the signatures to that petition were few, yet it was signed by a clergyman and magistrate and • landed proprietor, and it recommended that no writ should issue pending the inquiry into corruption in the borough. Although there had been some delay, the further inquiry would be proceeded with as soon as possible, and only yesterday he (Sir J. Pakington) bad signed no less than 60 summonses to witnesses. Ho thought that, per- ' haps, under the circumstances the right hon. gentleman would not press his motion far the issuing of the writ. Mr. TUFNELL said that he had given notice of moving for the issue of the writ in consequence of the petition, which was so numerously signed ; there being no legal im pediment to its issuing during the inquiry ; and the peti tioners were apprehensive that there would be a long delay is the issuing of the writ. Under the circumstances stated by the right hon. gentleman, he should not press his motile ; and he only hoped there would be no undue delay in the in vestigation. METROPOLITAN GRAVEYARDS. Mr. SEYMOUR put the question of which he had given notice : When the graveyards and burial-places within the city and metropolis of London are to be bully closed, and' what further steps have been taken to provide the means of extramural interniont ? Lord PALMERSTON—I will repeat to my hon. friend what I stated to the House on a former occasion. I have inetiucted the proper medical officers so make inspection of the graveyards of the metropolis, that inspection is now going on as fast as circumstances will permit ; and the ye .. •slt hitherto lb— ;tilt ._ has been that, in every Case, I have applied to the council office for an order in council for the purpose of closing the graveyards. (Hear, hear.) I think that the probability is that the same course will be pursued with regard to almost all the graveyards. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the arrangements for burials beyond the defined limits those arrangements must, of course, rest with the parishesconcerned ; but I apprehend that the great extent of the ground which has been taken for that purpose near Woking, would be amply sufficient to meet all demands of parishes (or a long pen, dof time. (Hear, hear.) IRISH NATIONAL SCHOOL BOOKS. Mr. F. SCULLY put the question of which he had Riven notice, whether any arrangements have been adopted to insure the sale of books intended for the use of the Irish National Schools, to the promoters of schools and the public, in an authentic form and at a moderate price. Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to ray, that an ar rangement, with a view to promoting the sale of these books is an authentic and available form, was in progress, but that at present it was not desirable to state the nature of the arrangement. The papers showing what was done would soon be ready, and the hon. member could then move for their production. THE NATIONAL DEBT RESOLUTIONS. Mr. DISRAELI would make a suggestion which might conduce to the advantage of public business. It would ap pear that the resolutions of which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had given notice on Monthly relating to the re duction of the National Debt, and which had been distri buted yesterday (Thursday), had this day (Friday) under gone seine important alterations. Since he had entered the house he had received, by the courtesy of the Secretary of the Treasury, a copy of the altered resolutions ; and he had ob d that some of the alteradons were of a very im portant character. (Hear, hear.) Under these circum stances, perhaps the Chancellor of the Exchequer would confine himself that night to makinar his statement, and would not ask the house, which would his unprepared, to come to any conclusions on the subject. (Hear, hear.) -- ‘0 CHAN(' 7XCHP-11.7ER.—That The CI ACELLOR of theEXeHEQL • question which must depend on the feelings of the howl.: after they had beanl his statement. The opinion which the right hon. gentleman had expressed would no doubt have great weight ; hut in his statement he (the Chancellor Exchequ ' • into the - of statement to WWI at that time; but he had uu derstood that UN hon. gentleman did not think that the statement wee in a State to ho offered now with soy probability of • satisfactory conclusion. But he quite agreed with the hon. member for Montrose, that the subject was a very important one, and one which the house should be prepared to go into. (Hear, hear.) [At this point in the proceedings, which, it will be ob served by the report were of a very irregular character, the contusion was greatly increased by the evening having deepened into decided darkness, and, no lights beiug,forth coming, it was a matter of great difficult to see what was going on. After loud calls for light, and the ringing of signal belle in various direc tions, a blase of gas was at last It in ; and the elf.:et was theatrical—Lord J. Russell, Mr. Gladstone, Mr. J. Wilson, and Mr. Patten all beita• detected on their legs . at the same time. Mr. J. Wilson was moving that at its rising the house should adjourn to Monday ; Mr. Patten, cheered by the members around hies, was about to make the state ment Mr. Hume had invited; and Lord J. Rossill was pointing out to Mr. Bouverie, who sat nett to him, that he should take the chair—the Speaker having by this time left—und Mr. Gladstone being ready to proceed with his resdutions. Mr. Bouverie having risen Mr. Paten gave way, Mr. Wilson sat down, and, amid cheering, Mr. Bou eerie took the chair, and regularity was thus restored. The order of the day being read . ] The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then pro ceeded to slunk as fellows— It is now my duty to explain to the eorn,uittie, as well a. I am able, the nature of the propositions which, on the part of the goverament, I have to make to them with respect to operations on the inie clonal debt; and the course which I think would be most convenient to the house ter me to take would be this: that I should, in the first instance, state the plan such as her Majesty's government recommended for adoption; and that I should put together, before I sit down, suchodtera. times as have been made in the draft of the resolutions since they were ant distributed ; and the house will then see both the plan, as it is, and the alterations, separate from the plan ; and they will then be best enabled to judge whether it will be most for the general convenience to proceed with the discus-ion and take a vote to-night, or to postpone that vote until a future evening. I will nut com mence these explanations by dwelliug iti any degree on the importance of the subject to which they refer. I would rather, if I could, after view jog the amount of public in tercet which it has excited, endeavour to moderate each ex pectations as may have been formed in the public mind 1 do not recommend the prspoeition which is now before the house as a proposition which can effect any sweeping or fundamental change ; but I ven•ure to recommend it as a proposition which is just and prudent in itself, and which will probably lay the foundation ter more extended future improvements. (Hear, hear.) Now, the committee ought to understand that there is the broadest possible distinction between our position at the present time and the position in which former finance ministers have stead when they have proposed extensive operations of this kind. Every oue of these operation. between the peace and the year 1814, when they were worthily wound up under the auspices of my right hon. friend, the member fur the University of Cambridge (Mr. Goulburn)—by a plan inferior is wis dom to none that had gone be fure—(hear, hear)—have had an issue comparatively simple to deal with ; and they have marked the successive stages by which you effected a great transition in respect to your debt, frem a state of prolonged war, when money could only be raised at high rates of in terest, to a state of peace, commercial progress, and the general stability of our institutions. The case ROW is widely different. Anti new I come to the description of the plan itself. It consists of three portiere. The first of these is what I may call cert duly a minor portion of the scheme, and I will enter upon it first in order to dispose of it and put it out of view. It is the liquidation of certain minor stocks which appear on the schedule of the national debt, the very existence of which is unknown to a great portion of the public, nnd per haps to a great portion of this house. These minor stocks are chiefly those connected with the South Bea Company. There is the debt due to the South Sea Company, the amount of which now stands at 3,666,0001. Then there are the Old South Sea Annuities, 2,775,0001. ; the New South Sea Annuitiet, 1,997,0001., within a fraction of two millions ; the South Sea Annuities of 1751, amounting to 400,000/. ; and the Bank Annuities 670,0001. I speak of the capital value of these annuities, the amount of which is about nine millions and a half sterling. Now, with regard to these, it is proposed that we should under take what is called a compulsory operation, that is to say, that we should tender certain alternatives to the holder, and at the same time inform him that, if he does not ac cept one or the other of the.ie alternatives, he will at the ex piration of the proper period be paid off. I think the house will agree with me that this—viewing its moonlit, viewing the state of the revenue, viewing the state of the public credit, and the balances actually at the command of parliament and in the Exchequer—is a safe operation. Then I would further represent that this would effect real economy. I thiuk that with regard to this portion of the public debt we shall succeed in effecting a moderate reduction, hut still a reduce Lion in the interest of the public debt. If on these nine millions and a half we effect an average reduc tion cf only a quarter per cent, in the interest, yet still that quarter per cent. will represent a permanent annual saving to the country of 25,000/. With regard to the means of paying off a portion of this debt, there will be, in the first place, the cash in the exchequer; there will be in the second , place the bonds, the nature of which I will state more par ticularly by-and-bye; and there will be likewise the power which I propose to take of issuing an amount of these Ex- ! chequer Bonds, exactly in the same manner as a power is ' annually inserted with regard to Exchequer Bills, in your Appropriation Act.. And there will be, lastly, the alternative stock which we oiler to the party at his optiou. Tile only re maining point I have to state with regard to these stocks is, that perhaps a difficulty may have been raised with regard to moat of them, whether parliament was bound in law to give them the benefit of a notice of twelve months. The case did not appear to us to be entirely clear. It not being clear, we thought—espe cially considering the limited amount of stock and their comparatively defenceless condition—we thought it better to give the stockholders the benefit of that doubt, and to give them the full notice. There is only one exception in which six months is absolutely defined by law, and it is also defined that the notice must be in the handwriting of the sovereign, and exhibited to the public view on the Royal Exchange. Well, now I have disposed of one portion of this scheme, and I come now to the second ant the third. The second relates to the issuing of Exchequer Bonds, and the third relates to a voluntary commutation depending entirely on the option of the holder of the Three per Cent. Stocks, that is to say, the Three per Cent. Consols, and the Three per Cent. Reduced, amounting together to a capital of very nearly 500,000,000/. But I now refer to both these plans, because both of them have in view one and the same ultimate ob ject, and that ultimate object is to lay the found ttiou of an irredeemable public debt—l mean irredeemable at the option of the holder, bearing 24 per cent. interest. The modes in which we propose to attain that end will appear as 1 proceed. In the meantime I wish to impress on the committee that that is the ultimate end I have in view. I know that there are some gentlemen who think that this reduction of the Three per Cent. Stock to a rate of Two and-a-Half per Cent., is a very simple matter, which may be delayed for ono or two yell", but which it se quite certain will be accomplished at last. Those persons are more penguin.) in their temperament than I am. I do not say that you may not entertain the hope, but I do say it is a subject of consi derable uncertainty, and that if you do hope to accomplish it you ought not to miss using the rational means of !accom plishing it, and that you should not trust to particular Cir cumstances to effect a great reduction in the interest el money. It may come no doubt, but the present goneratles is • good deal misled from the fact that they succeed a gearl ration that lived in a time when money was dear and we live in a generation when money is cheap, and not extend ing our views so far, knowing that our forefathers burrowed of the public at 5 or 6 per cent., and that we can borrow at 3 per cent., we assume that we are travelliag down an In clined plane. But this Is an important and a curious fact, and one that ought to be borne in mind, that there was a time when the public credit was even higher than it is at the present moment. I think it was in the year 1739-114 years ago; and in the middle of June that the Three per Cents., which are but just at par now, were at the price of 107; and I wish to call this fact to the recollection of the committee, in order that they may appreciate the immense difficulties that attend an operation of the character that we have now in our view. Now, sir, the Exchequer Bonds that I propose, on the part of the government, to issue will have the following leading characteristics, which I will state in the first instance concisely, together, and without comment for the clear a; prehension of the house. In the first plaee, they will be transferable by simple deli very, and without cost of any kind. (Hear, hear.) In the second place, they will bear inte rest in the first instance at the rate of 21. 15s. per cent., and subsequently at the rate of 21. 10s. per cent., and I propose that the number of years at which they should bear interest at 21 15.. per centum shall thus be dealt with—that a limit shall be fixed by parliament beyond which the rate of interest shall not on any account be allowed to extend, sad that a discretion be given to the commissioners of the treasury to reduce that limit before they come to the actual period for the issue of the bond., so that you may give the government the full advantage of the latest information, and the most recent and the freshest views at the time they are eelled upon to act. Tee committee will see the dis advantage under which wo should be placed, if we Wee absolutely to tie up our hands so that me could not depart from any given course. The beads will, after the Ist of September, 1861, at tweet, bat perhaps at a period earlier than that bear interest at the sate of 21. 10t., to lst September, 1891, that is, a period of 40 years, during which 1 propose that these resolutions should operate, and after the year 1894 they will be subject to redemption, whether by the ...tate, or whether by the holders, is another point to which I will by-and-bye call the attention of the house. But toy propene] is, that the question at whose option they shall be redeemed, shall not be decided by a vote of this committee to-night, bat shall likewise be confided for the present to the discretion of the government. I propose lastly, that these Exchequer Bonds shall not exceed, under any authority to be conveyed by these resolutions, thirty millions in amount. Tnere are many other miser questions, but at the same time questions of cone'- , dereble importance with respect to these bond., to which I ' will only refer in the fewest possible words, in order that I may not load the discussion; hut still they are questions which will bear ea the value and the popularity of the secu rities The form iu which the bonds are to be drawn, the mode in which the interest is to ho paid, will probably—l say probably — be by coupons attached to the bonds ; the places where the interest is to he payable, that is to say, whetht r only at the !link of England and the Bank Of Ireland, or lila:wise at the branch ; tht mile of securieg these bosh against the possibility of forgery, and replacing them when lost-these are all matters of an executive character on which it is not necessary for me to detain the house at the present moment. These bonds may be issued in the follow ' ing modem, and I am quite sure the committee will forgive me for stating, in as plain language as I am able, consider ing the necessity of devising a mode of framing resolutions . 116 ,, f kind e irnulser of h a the mannerhouscaswtiothsarter g 'i ti Y r ci he I to operrtions of this sort, and vet forming a plan and what is jealouse subjec t dem e a f demands called a readable document--I therefore venture to put before the house the principal resolutions in • distinct form. I propose that there Exchequer Bonds shall he capable of being deposed of in four different merles. The first is that they shall be exchaegealele &menet Exchequer hills. There may be gentlemen who may say.. Why not let the Exchequer Bills alone, surely you ought to he content with the conditions on which you now hold a suns of ne ei ly 18,000,0001 at a rate of interest not rising above the very moderate figure of 11 per cent." I aria perfectly satisfied with the prevent condition of Ex chequer Bills ; but the condition of Exchequer Bill+ is like a summer's sky-it may be varied, under tne influence of circumstances, in a very short period. The funding of Ex chequer Bills, when you have a fair opportunity uf doing so, is • wise oeeration. I do not say it would be unwise, if we could, to issue these Exchequer Bonds at the rate of 2i per cent.for the purp.ae of fandingExchequer Bills for which we pay lj percent. When yore get the quantity of Exchequer Bills very low,then the condition of Exchequer Bills becomes strong, but you likewise greatly strengthen the condition of I government, and enable them to go into the market with an advantage e !rich you crud scarcely pOSAUS it the state, the price, of Exchequer bills was low. And 1 state this, not 1 that I am anxious that we should rued Exchequer Bills, hut 1 that we should have power to do so, and I wiil just stem to I the house the price at which previous fundings of Exchequer Bills have been effected. In 1820 there was &funding of Exchequer Bills when 1001. in Exchequer Bills was funded for 1071. stock, representing a rate of in. tenet of 41. Os. Sd. per cent. In 1823, 1001. of Exchequer Bills on being funded brought -1001. 10s. ' at 4 per cent. representing a rate of interest of 41 Is. 2.1. per cent. In 1839, 1001. in Exchequer Bills was funded at 109/. Three per Cent. Stock, reoreseuting a rate of interest at 31. 10s. per cent. In 1811, Exchequer Bill, were again funded ; Exchequer bills for each 1001. being exchanged for 1121. 2, Three per Cent. stock, re presenting a rate of interest of 31. 7s. 2d. per cent. Thee, the commite e will see that, when you have had occasion to fund Exchequer Bills, the very beg terms have beer, 3'. 7s. per cent., and other tr rms hate been as high as 41. Os. 8.1. per cent., that tate of interest, recollect, not representing I the rate of interest in Exchequer Bills-namely, a I rate of interest for which you have made a temporary bargain for a few months, but a rate of interest on a new public debt as permanent as any other funded debt. Under these circumstances I propose to the committee that we may be authorised, it we I think tit, within the limits authorised by the resolution, I to exchange Exchequer Bills fur Eschegrier Bonds, and, in case of our issuing them for that purpose, they will be at the rate of 21. 10s, per cent., which will he an average saving of more than one percent. on the rate at which Ex ci.equer Bills have been funded before. The next .purpose to which I propose that these bonds shall be applicable is that they shall be exchanged against stock. It is not ne. emery that we should discuss that part of the proposition now, because I shall come to it later, but I likewise pro pose that these Exchequer Bonds may be sold by the covernment, and the proceeds applied to the purchase of stock for the purpose of redemption or applied to the purchase of Exchequer Bills. They art likewise intended to meet the particular case with reference to that small portiou of the public debt which we propose to pay off. It may be found most convenient that we should sell these bonds and apply the proceeds as cash to meet the demands of those who wish to be paid off, which might happen to an extent be yond the balances in the it:chequer. Now, with re earl to the advantage of these bonds, 1 need only `say that the sub ject has been a subject of the moat careful and anxious con sideration, but one of the great dangers attending ques tions of this nature is that they of necessity involve the arriving at conclusions en questions of great importance with imperfect iuformatioa. Public feeling after all, soil the opinion of the commercial classes, are the test on which ultimately • measure of this nature depends, and what will be the state of public feeling at a given time with regard to such a measure, id a matter on which the very best judgment, even under the most favourable cir cumstances, will be uncertain. I cannot blame myself for not having taken all tree pains in my power compatible with the strict and absolute secresy which this measure re quired to ascertain what prospect*, according to the best and wisest judgments, there were of bringing out bonds of this kind into the rocket, but at the same time it was a matter of extreme difficulty to arrive at such data as would justify me it absolutely fixing on the terms of the proposition front which there should be no variation what ever. However, the grounds that we have to expect that the bonds will he a popu:ar and current se curity I will briefly state. In the first instance, there is the easy transfer of these securities entirely without cast. It is difficult for us to say what may he the precise a ffect of that easy and rapid transfer without any cost, because we have no precedent among the various descriptions of the present public securities, but we have a partial means of forming a judgment from the fact that there are many foreign securities current in this country which are transferable from hand to hand. I by no means compare these foreign securities with the securities which it is now proposed to create. I hope that without any undue pride, yet Englishmen may so far hold up their heads, that the instruments by which they secure the public creditor may hold a very high, rank, perhaps the highest rank among similar securities throughout the world. But we hero the means of judgment on this matter, for it sometimes happece that there are foreign securities current in this country, the game description of security in every I other respect, but different in this one respect, that they require a formal process in order to transfer in the one case, while in the other case transfer is effected by delivery from hand to hand, and 1 believe I am correct is saying, from the information of persons having the best knowledge, that it is found that the Simple effect of transfer by delivery from hand to hand adds very considerably to the value, and in some instances to the amount of several peunds per centum. (Rear, hear.) Then there is this great ad vantage, that they will be a permanent security so far as a long time goes,within which no change shall take place. I do not meant ) say that by issuing an instrument for so long a period, this guarantee will make a very great change in the value. More rittaguirie persons think it will. I do I not urge thae but I meet point out theemportant effect, not so much in this case as in other cases, tkat this element of • guarantee exercises in the case of securities. My right hon. ' friend the member for Cambridge, when he proposed that the Three-and-a-Half per Cents. should be reduced to Threedind-a-Quarter, and after October, 1854, to Three per Cent., he likewise provided that they should have a fur her certain currency at Three per Cent. fur 30 years, with in which period there should not be any further reduction. It is perfectly possible and easy to give an answer to the question, " What is the value, under the present circum stances, of money and credit, of • guarantee by the public not to reduce the interest of a particular security below 31. per cent, within 21 years from the present time ?" Now, it will be recollected, this is not like the value of a guarantee against reduction upon a security bearing an interest of 5 or 4 per cent. ; but it is only a guarantee not to reduce below 3 per cent. The committee has the means of testing exactly the value of such a guarantee. The present price of the stock of the right bon. gentleman, which pays 33, and which will become a 3 per cent. stock in October, 1854, but which will not he liable to further reduction for 20 years, was, according to the authorised report of yesterday, 1031. ss. at the close. Now the dividends have just been paid upon the whole of this awls, so that that will not enter into the question ; but there are still three dividends to be received at the present rate, namely, those in Oc tober next, April, and October, 1854. Toe excess of dividend which will be received those three times is just 2s. 6d. each, and therefore that must bo deducted in order to compare a guaranteed with an unguaranteed stock. If then, we substract the 7e. 61, that will leave 1021. 17e. 6d. as the price of a three per cent. stock, which is guaranteed against reduction for twenty-one years. (Hear, bear.) Now let us see what is the price borne by the best of our three per cent. stocks, which is not fortified with that guarantee. I will take the Three per Cent. Consols, be cause they are the largest stock, and coneequontly bear the highest value in the market. From the same official re turns I find that the closing price of Three per Cent. Cent sole yesterday was 1001. 12s. 6d. But the dividend on this kind of stuck is payable in July, so that half of that, or 15e., must be deducted from the aepareut price. Therefore in strictness the present price of unguaranteed Three per Cent. Centel', is 99/. 17s. fiel. (Ilear, hear.) lint 1021. 17s. 6d. is the price of the same stock guaranteed against reduction for twenty-one years, and therefore the value of that guarantee in the market at the present time is no lees than It. per centum. (hear, hear.) Now I want to get hold of that value for the public; and, therefore I ask the house to put that guarantee upon some of the stocks, and thus appropriate the advantage to the public. (Hear.) I think it would not be at all unfair to assume that this new stock would be found very valuable in the commercial world. It would be found very convenient as a means of raising temporary loans, fur it coma he uepesited without expense, and that would be another element of iacreased value. (Hear, hear.) There is another paint upon which I look as one of considerable importance. 1 imagine that if we go back for a certain number of years, we shall arrive , at a time-and that is by no means a distant period-when dealings in public securities were almost entirely confined to the metropolis-dealings, I should add, not only iu public securities, but in stocks generally. At that time there could hardly be said to be • stack market out of the metropolis ; but the immense progress iu public enterprise has led to the formation of multitudes of joiatotock companies, many of them of the highest class, arid to the investment in rail, aye of between two and three hundred millions; and has given rise to transactions of immense magnitude in the provinces. This altered state of circumstances has created regular stock markets in Liverpool, Menclieeter, Leeds, Glasgow, E linburgb, Birmingham, and other towns, iu which very large transactions are daily carried on. From these lucid stick markets, however, at the present time, the public securities are almost eieirely excluded. I do not mean to say that nobody in the provinces ever buys them. No el itiht they are bought to • large amount for the purpose of in vestment: but they are obtained principally through the medium of London clue spend, arts. It you inquire at Li verpool, for instance, or at any of the other provincial markets, you would find that there are uo dealings at all in the public securities there; or that at all events they era absolutely insignificant in amount. Now, I must frankly confess that I am anxious to bring the public secu rities into the provincial markets, because if you eidaree the circle of the demand, you ill^frase the value of the com modity. Just as when, with a fixed DUltiller of bus ers, if you iecrease the amotiat of the ceinniali.y, you diminish its value ; so when you have a fixed amount V.' the esmtuodity if you increase the number of the buyers, you augment the value of the commodity. Let us endeavour, thee, to give that element of value to the public securities. B e e some people will say, " Why not alter t to present mode of trausterieg stuck ? Why do you nut. instead of requiring a personal attendance at the hank and the signature of a hook, Permit the parties to sign some legal document which might be transmitted by post? " Now, 1 confess I do not eve my way to such a measure. My belief is, that the present mode of transfer, for Lendum which is the centre of the monetary trams:settees of Englauad and of the world, is as nearly as possible perfect. It is the most rapid, the most cheap, the most secure, and the most satisfactory that has ever been devised ; and I dread to interfere with what has proved to be of such immense advantage. Th ere may no doubt, be mode without bteaking up that system, of introducing the proposed alteration, but I Lave sever been tot fortunate as to hear one proposed that seemed likely to be satisfactory. I think, therefore, it would b e a most serious evil to sacrifice the Mullense attvantage which the great central market now enjoys, for the *ek e of a contingent advantage to the minor markets. B u t if, w i th. out breaking up that system at all, w e can get the public securities into the provincial markets, we shall achieve a double good; because, in the first place, we shall en h ance the value of the public securities, and shall thus give gre a t additional strength to the public credit; and we shall, in the next place, introduce a further element of stealinesa. (Hear, hear.) When all your dealings are iu one market they are more open to the influences of combination; but where you have many markets in different parts of the country, it would he much morn difficult to divert them from their natural course, or to render them liable to urlifis cial intim:ma. (Hear, hear.) There is yet another point which deserves consideration. This new stock woull beetle extremely eligible fur foreigners who might wish to invest their money in our funds, but who would like to have the document in their own possession. (Hear, hear.) These s then, arc the principal reasons which have induced the gm veraeuent to me; the house to authorise the creation of a seek if this kind. But there are two points of considerable difficulty. 'lie first of these is a point upon which a great portion of this question depends. Ate these securities, which you call Ex.:au:quer Honda, to be merely very long-dated Exchequer Buis, which the public at a certain period, whetlis r it as ill or will not, and totally irrespective of the circumstances of the times, may be celled upon to repay ; or are they to be guaranteed against reduction or interft mice for a certain time; but atter that, are the public, and the public only, to enjoy the power of redemption, to use or act to use it, as they may think fit ? The government feel the difficulty of this question in the absence of all that informetion, and all that knowledge of public opinion which cin wily be elicited by , discussion in the public journals and elsewhere. Ne ithout that information we must, as it were, come to a decision in the dark. If we had said these securities shall be securities absolutely redeem able at the will of the holder., we might have run conside able risk. The unfavourable circumstances even of a few posts might here destroyed uur scheme, even at the moment of its birth into the world : and we might have seen the essential portion of our plans remain abortive. If, oa the other hand, we had worded the resolutions to as to de clare the bonds not to be redeemable, I believe we should have been told that the present state of the securities are SO satisfactory in their character, that as permanent, irredeem able securities there might be; many persaus willing to hold them. In this ddficalty tt appeared to the government to be the wisest course to ask parliament fur a discretionary power to use the information which discussion will elicit between the time of massing au act founded upon these resolutions and the issuing of the securities, as circumstances shall render advisable. It is quite clear, tied if we got out these 1z per cent. bonds, it might be very well worth the while of persons to hold them; but then we should not have achieved what I have described as our great object—namely, the bringing before the public eye, and into the habits of this mercan tile community , the habit of dealing with permauent public securities bearing 21 per cent. interest. That would never have been a nermeuent security: it would have been a very long dated Exchequer. Bill. (Hear.) Another difficulty is tt.e committee were asked to give the government pewees to cell these new securities for the redemption of sock, or the cancelling of Exchequer Bills; and persons might say, " You may throw them away, or part with them for nothing, air sell them at tee great a price; or you may be so stiff end rigid that when men offer their full value you will not take it." Well, it is quite true, that those who act for the public may fail to discharge their duties ; but you will greatly damage our position as your agents, and prevent us from taking advantage of any circumstances that may occur, if you insert in these resolutions the terms upon which, or not at all, these Exchequer Bonds arc to be sold. We, therefore, thought the but mole of meeting the reasonable desire of parliament to be come completely master of these transactions would be this—to ask you to coufer upon the government a discre tion which should be employed, and which would enable us to deal freely with the securities that ore about to be created, but et the same time to limit the amount of the securities which shall be issued under these resolutions in such a %ray that you need not fear It commit to us, free and unhampered, the power we seek. On this account it is, I have proposed that no Exchequer Bends shall be issued under these resolutions exceeding 30,000,000/. Another limitation is that the issuing of these Excite liter Bonds shall absolutely determine on tie eili of April, 'Set. It is not that I assume only e 0,000,000!. will be requ.rtd, or that 30,000,0001. could be issued by April next ; but nay object is this: We wish to bare lower to try an experiment, and this limitation tall compel us to come back to parliament if we should ba &spec* to go beyond that mo derate extent. (Hear, bear.) Now, the question is are these bonds constituted upon a sufficiently broad basis for the operation we are proposing to the house? I think not. I have said much iu commendation of instru ments of this character and form of public security; but as it is argued in the many intelligent discussions wi.ich have already appeared ou the subject, these bonds would not be a security of the most desirable kind fur al: parties who are at present holders of public stocks. I look upon these bonds as a commercial and trading security, that will suit the purposes of classes engaged in commerce generally, end of course of those who deal pertieulaey in public stocks and in money. But there are a large class of holders of public stocks who would reap no advantage from making tranaters cheap, because they do not wens to transfer at all ; and who do not wish fur any alteration in the mode of paying the interest because they are satisfied with the present system. These persons may, in fact, be described as the permanent heldete ; and they comprise, that lerge class who hold in the capacity of trustees either for public budies or under private settlements. I wish to put it to the com mittee that the government did not confine their operations to these Exchequer Bonds alone, because it was obviously desirable, if it could he dime without mischief, that the re solutions should suit all classes of the public creditor. toe the purpose, therefore, of meeting the case of the permanent holders, we likewise propose that there should be the means of a voluntary conversion of the great Three per Cent. stock—a voluntary conversion iu the strict% st sense, for no other conversion can be thought of now. In approaching this great phalanx of Three per Cents„ defended as they are by their amount, their rate of interest and their right of twelve months' notice, we must feel like a prudent general when he approaches a fortification of the first class. An our operations must be conducted with the utmost eau tion. I was not sorry to hear our terms described as too liberal to the fundholeler ; but when gentlemen say that we might get better terms, I should be more disposed to take notice of them if they could show some transactions in point. and if we had the motley in our pockets. his our duty to offer to the fundkelder fair terms, but at the same time we ought to take care tnat we do not commit parliament to any resolutions whatever, that would involve anything dangerous or objeceonable. We propose that in the time between the passing of the act to be founded upon them resolutions, and the 10th of neat Oetuher, the holders of the Three per Cent. Consolidated Stock, and the Three per Cent. Reduced Stock, may have an option of exchanging each 1001. of caoh stock, into any one of the three following forms: —The first is that of the Ee.eh, quer Bonds at par, upon which I have enlarged considerably. The second is a Three-sad-a-Hell per Cent. Stock to be created for the purpose, upon the condition that each 1001. of perpetual annuity, now bearing 31. per cent. interest, shall be ex changed as against 82/. 10s, of these new Three-and.a- Half per Cent. Stock. The result of which would be to Live a present income of 21. 17s. 9d., instead of 31. No doubt this is a very insignificant reduction. No doubt the reduction is not a very great one, but the impression* that even this reduction would not be readily submitted to. Fur my own part I have no such fear; bat I anticipate rather that it would be too exteiisieely taken. The cone mitts e would form a very inauequate idea of the advantage to be derived from this proposal, if they limit it to the 2s. 3d. per cent. These Three-and-a-Half per Cents. would be fortified by a guarantee for the period of not less than forty years ; and at the expi ration of that time instead of being at 31. defended by a twelve months' notice, at would simply be a 3/. 10s. stock redeemable at par by parlianneut. Although I am by no means bold enough to assert that they would then be able to effect that redemption, yet the proposal would lead to a great reduction of the capital at the sad of forty years, and a small reduction in the annual charge. But we also pro pose that in lieu of taking the Exchequer Bonds orthe Threteand-a-Half per Cents., or 821. 10s. on the lea, the parties shall have the option of taking 11()1. in Twaand-s- Half per Cent. Stock. An objection is entertained to this particular feature of the plan upon which I will venture to request the attention of the committee. I wish to state as impartially and tairly as I can the reasons which appear to me strongly to recommend the inclusion of that feature in the scheme, and I shall likewise state the precise limit upon which it is to be acted upon ; as probably the the thing to which the right hon. gentleman adverted, when he said that an important change had been made in the resolution. But now the objection is, that in order to reduce the annual charge you are going to increase the capital of the debt. (Hear, (tear.) Now this objectioe, in my opinion, has considerable force; but it is not true that we are goieg to increase the capital of the debt, in order to reduce the present annual charge at the eatense of Pc * " tsrity. It is not proposed to n.dtrze the 'Merest to two-aud three-quarters per cent. fur forty years, iu order that the three per emu*. may revive with an increased eve.tal at the end of that time. It is a proposition that will secure an absolute reduction of a quieter per mu:. open the annual charge, and it will place posterity under 113 disad vantage; because, while we shall tie tap our own hands against redemption, we shoal leave posterity the optima of redeeming on certain terms. But they say, you are going to aid to the capital of the debt as much as your ere going to save iu the interest during forty peas. This statement Mett.v%s au arithmetic .1 error; but if at were true it would he inconclusive; besause there would still be the permanent saving of a quarter per cent. in the interest after the 40 years. But the present Talus of I . e in 1894 is, in fact, v e ry far bel sw the value of so rienuey of eta fur 10 years; and, therefore, it will cense a tray considers% purl y one of 101. per diate dim creation 01 Yon ough enabled t nearly alit to give hii as nearly mined by cave, the of enc rat] Mr. The C I do not cas the public holder is holder hp the aunts interest i fore, it i there sh either we ♦entagcs case of f r om 4 to tives sons Cents. w, stock at It trrett et ; iutero4 Three-an Five per of interts hear.) 'J the 1 wo• of 21. 15a . Cent. situ the differ CA,C is qu the war. men, to conseque . at 3 per wrest wa true, at signideat tailed ui wiser eye thin time millions an erroto wiso. on pastel for the sa is not to basis of to poster posterity I am iion oY possess. understs of the that it i the debt you will required U I' base in be wron question I amid tl view wa public al utarks.S, half per include we shall Perhaps by meal if we we may that we we give be all vc The General Board of Health Bill was read a third time. , ENCUMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND). Lord MONTE.tOLE gave notice that he would, on an early day, put a question to the government on the subject of the Encumbered Estates Act, which was about to expire. Their lordships then, at Ave minutes put six o'clock, ad journed. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—FRIDAY, APRIL 8. The SPEAKER took the chair at 4 o'clock. NEW MEMBER. Mr. rRITCIIARD took the oaths sod his ssot for the borough of Bridgeoorth. ELECTION COMMITTEES. The members chosen to serve on the committees to try the petitions complaining of undue retinas fur the boroughs of Athlone and Cookermuuth were sworn in. PRIVATE BUSINESS. THIRD RlADlNGS.—Blackburn Railway; Brighton, Hove, and Preston Waterworks; Cardiff Waterworks; Great Yarmouth Wellington Pier; Norfolk Estuary; Preston (lea; W art field Sake Mills; Wolverhampton Mar kets and Fairs, &e.; New Forest Deer Removal Act Amendment; Sheffield Waterworks; Bills. SECOND READlNG.—Whicliwood Forest Bill. PUBLIC BUSINESS. PET) (lONS PRESENTED. ADMISSION OP 'MS TO PARLIAMENT.—By Lord 110- THAN, from Bramston, East Riding of Yorkshire; Mr. FLOYER, from Maiden Horton, Dorset; Mr. EVELYN, from the clergy and deanery of Guildford ; against. COUNTY Conics JVIIISDICTION:—By Lord HOTHAraI, from Yorkshire Law Society, praying that in suits in equity, of small amount, original jurisdiction may be given to County Courts. OPENING OP THZ CRYSTAL PALACE ON SUNDAYS.— By Mr. EVANS, from Derby (I) ; Harlington, Derby-hire (2) ; Wilton. Staffordshire (3) ; Mr. k'LOYEII, from St. Peters, Dorchester. West Furdingtnn, and Longburton, 1/..rset ; Capt. SCOBELL, from Bath; ogling. Sir J. , SHELLEY, from wood carvers of the metropolis, in favour of. CLeRGY Rasztivm Bar..—By Mr. EVELYN, from the clergy of the deanery of West Stoke, Surrey; from the Oren,. of the deanery of Guildford; 'Oust. Team IN Sciercu UNIVERAITIZS.—By Mr. BRIGHT, from Coldstream; Mr. DUNLOP, from Elders and mana gers of united preshytetian church, in Michael street, Pen nock ; Sir J. MONTGOMERY, from the kirk session of the parish of Pennon, in the county of Kinross; Mr. 0. S DUFF, from Elgin and Cullen ; for the abolition of. Pentic-novers (SCOTLAND) BILL.—By Sir J. AN DERSON, from Paisley; Mr. DUFF, from the county of Wolff; against. TAINS ON KNOWLEDOI.—By Sir J. ANBERSON, from the Stirling School of Arts, praying fur the re peal of. PARLIAXINTARY Parana.—By Mr. FARRER, from Gainford Institute, praying for supplies of. SIIPLIIVIS . COUNTS OP SCOTLAND.—By Mr. KIN NAIRD, from the TODD Council of the city of Perth, io favour of improvement in the law of. TENANT RIGHT (IRELAND) BILL.—By Serjeant MEE. from 350 inhabitants of Donegal, and another from 1,350 inhabitants of Monncoin, Carageen, and Kilnasbury, in the county of Kilkenny, in favour of. OCCUPATIoN OP ROBB BY THE FRENCH.—By Mr. S. FITZGERALD, from certain inhabitants of Horsham, Crawley, Lewes, and other places, complaining of, and praying the house to address her Majesty to use her good offices to put as end to that occupation. RONNE/HRS.—By Mr. FARBER, from South Shields, praying for the better inspection of. Hoene or WORL POZ YOUNG FZMALIS.—By Mr. FARRELL, tram Barnard Castle, in favour of limiting the boon of work for young females employed by milliners and dressmakers. • MRUCHANT SHIPPING Captain SCOBELL, from seamen of the port of London, against the 29th clause of the Merchant Shipping Bill, and for the modification of the 37th clause, relating to manning mar merchant vessels wholly with foreigners. NOTICES OF MOTIONS. THE DUKE OF SUTHERLAND STEAMER. Mr. F. DUNDAS gave notice that on Monday he would ask a question of the Lord Advocate with reference to the loss of the Duke of Sutherland steamer, an I as to whether any communication had been made to the local authorities, with a view to the more efficient use of means for saving life in such cues. THE DOCKYARD PROMOTIONS. Sir B. HALL said that he had yesterday stated that he would to-day give the precise terms of the motion which he should submit on Thursday se'nnight with reference to promotions in dockyards. He begged to give notice that he should call the attention of the house to the contents of three parliamentary papers, Nos. 67, 271, and 272, of the present session, entitled Dockyard Promotions and Appointments, and that ' he should move for a select committee to inquire into the circumstances under which a circular, which was sent by the Admiralty to the superintendents of dockyards on the 26th of September, 1849, was cancelled on the 19th of April, 1852, without any order or minute from the Board ; and also to inquire into the circumstances under which a letter which was written by Sir Baldwin Walker to Mr. Stafford, the Secretary to the Admiralty, in which be ten dered his resignation, was withheld from the Board ; mid also to inquire into the circumstances connected with the appaintment of Mr. James Wells to the office of master smith in Portsmouth Dockyard, which was subsequently cancelled, and the appointment of Mr. George Cuitell in his stead ; and generally into the esercise of the patronage and influence of the Admiralty in the several parliamentary boroughs connected with the dockyards since the 19th of April, 1852, at which date the circular of the Admiralty was issued cancelling the order of the 26th of September, 1849, which directed that all reports and correspondence on the subject of promotions, appointments, and changes in dock yards should be forwarded to the surveyor's department ; in order that iu future such reports and correspondence should be remitted to the Secretary to the Admiralty. BORNEO . . Mr. HUME said that be bad placed a notice of motion o the paper with reference to the affairs of Borneo; but as be found that the government had undertaken to institute as inquiry, he should move to discharge hie motion. THE MINT. o f the _ .....equer) would enter very fully is._ _— nature.. Mr. SANDARS moved an address for an account of all the alterations ; and the house would then be in a position gold, silver, and copper nudes of the realm coined at the to judge of the best course to take, and to balance . the e eels royal mint, from the let day of January, 1843, to the 31st venienee oins' the icconvenierthe ne of sn ee im en me t id i lat deci dey of March last; specifying the weight, number, and sine . T h e re would, of course , be di value, te. (in continnatioa of parliamentary paper, No. 10.1, the government to force on a decisio n if the wish e es P rf t tl o te of session 1863.) right boo. gentlemen and of the house should be opposed. REFORM OF TIIE CORPORATION OF LONDON. (Hear, hear.) Sir B. HALL begged to put a question to the noble lord THE WEST INDIA MAIL STEAM-PACKET J. Russell). The noble lord would recollect that he (Sir COMPANY. B. Hall) had given notice of a motion for leave to being in Mr. SPOONER begged to ask the right hon. baronet la bill to reform the corporation of the City of London. (Sir J. Graham) whether the Board of Admiralty had re- Siaos then it appeared, from the papers, that at a meeting eeived me morials complaining of the irregularity of the of th e corporation the subject had been brought forward, West India Mail Comp tray'. steam-packets ? (Hear.) and a committee appointed for the purpose of drawing up a Sir J. OR tHAM-1 ant very sorry to steto to thehou r se e bill and ceneiderint 1000 measure for the reform of that that complaints are pouring in from every quarter w i th .: body. He wished to ask the noble lord whether any cons- West India mail spect to the irregularity with which the inunitation had been received by the government from the contract is fulfilled. ( Hear , hear.) These compla i nts Corporation of London, and whether the government had come from all the principal outposts of the Spited taken any steps for inquiry, by a constsunission or other- Kingdom; from Liverpool, Bristol, Glasgow, and wit*, with a view to the preparation of • bill for the re- Belfast; and alas from various places on the other side form of that corporation; as if that were the case, it would of the Atlantic. The house is aware that the public is under be unnecessary for him (Sir B. Hall) to bring forward the contract to pay no less a sum than 270,0001. annually to measure be had proposed this company. Since the contract was entered into, the Lord J. RUSSELL said be did not think that as yet the circumstances have been very favourable to the company ; Corporation of London had made any communication to the large importation ef treasure from America has alone the government on the subject. Nevertheless it was the yielded a very large and extensive profit to the company ; intention of the government to appo i n t a commission very and while the profits have been thus increasing, I am soon, to inquire into the subject of the reform of the corpo- sorry to say that the irregularity in the performance of the ra ti on of London , w i t h th e view to the p re p ara ti on o f a contract has likewise been on the increase. (Hear, hear.) measure. (Loud cheers.) Ihe matter now stands is this position. The company con- PRIVATE LIGHTHOUSES. tend that irregularity in point of time does not void the centract; and that is a question of law—and that cinestion Mr. FOR.STER moved for a return showing the state of has been submitted for the opinions of the law officers of the debt due to the Trinity Corporation for buying up pri- the Crown. The government is resolved that, if this vats lighthouses, in cash year, from 1830 inclusive, to the irregularity cannot be remedied, and if the law will permit, Crt time, or to the latest period to which the same can to set aside the contract. (Hear, hear) As soon as a deci ns:eide up. don has been como to I will announce it. (Hear.) TRUSTEES OF ST. GEORGE THE MARTYR. THE NATIONAL DEBT RESOLUTIONS. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE moved for a returns pecifying the Mr. RICARDO had heard with surprise that some amount of all monies received, and for what purposes ex- amended resolution, were somewhere in circulation. pended in each year, by the trustees of the parish church of (" Hear, hear," and laughter.) He bad not got any. When St. George the Martyr, Middiemx, from the paging of the were they published ? How were they distributed ? As a act 66 Geo. 111., c., 28, and 69 Geo. 111., c. 11, to the pm- member of the House of Commons he should like to be pee sent period. oeseed of them. (" Hear," and laughter.) CLERGY RESERVES (CANADA) BILL. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied Sir J. PAKINGTON begged to ask Lord J. Ramat that the resolutions wet@ to he had, in the usual way, at whether he had consulted the law Olken, or was otherwise the Vote-office. That was the usual place incases where it prepared to state the opinion of her Majesty's government, was found necessary to make alterations after the votes whether, in the event of the Clergy Reserves (Canada) of the day had been distribute 1. Bill, now before the house, being passed into a law, and Mr. RICARDO had applied at the Vote-office and had the legislature of Canada exercising the power that would go t th e old mgolution,„ (Laughter.) be given to them to secularise the clergy reserves, the gun - Mr. J. WILSON—The alterations are not long distri mates upon the consolidated fund, which is given to the h ole d / churches of England and Scotland in Upper Canada by Mr. RICARDO—WeII, half an hour ago. (Laughter.) section Bof the Act 3 and 4 Vie ,c. 78, would still be in force, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then and would permanently secure to those churches respect moved that the house should go into committee on the tively the annual sums specified in the said section of the o Consolidated Fund and National Debt Redemption" said act ? (then to move resolutions). , Lord J. RUSSELL said, that with respect to the stipend The SPEAKER put the question, " That Ido now leave now assigned and paidto the clergy of the church of England t h„h a j r. t. , and of Scotland in Canada, he imagined that there could Mr. NEWDEGATE was about to put a question, when not well be a doubt that, under the provisions of the bill, he was informed that be was out of order. , those clergymen would still have a right by law to chits The SPIRLES then left the chair. , the stipends assured to them ; and if the clergy reserves did Lord J. RUSSELL—The house will remember that Mr. not provide sufficient funds to pay those stipends toey Wilson Patten communicated to us the other night that he would have a right to the claim on the Consolidated Fund would for the future be unable to perform the duties of / given to them by the existing law. If the right hon. gen- chairman of committee.. I, therefore, now move that Mr. / tlsman wished to ask further, whether if the clergy Bouverie do take the chair. (Hear, hear.) reserves were secularised any of the clergy who might here- Mr. HUME —Bt fire that was done, and as there was after be appointed might make a claim on the Consoli- no one presiding --(Laughter.) dated Fend—on that question the law officers of the The SPEAKER here returned to the chair, and said that mown had not been consulted, and it was a question of law the hon. member for Mouths.° was too late to offer oppo ! which the government was not prepared to answer. sitioa. L Sir J. PAKINGTON said that, according to the noble • Mr. HUME was not going to offer opposition. Ile was lord's construction of the bill, the claim on the Consolidated , only about to point out th et before any change was made / Fund would be secured to the existing holders of stipends. lit was very desirable that thy should hear from the hon. , If that was so, would the noble loid, before Monday next, ! gentleman who had declined to continue in the office of . obtain the opinion of the law officers of the crown with re- c h a i rman of committee. why and wherefore be had de / gird to the other point. dined. The hon. gentlt man, it was understood, was in a / Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to assent. , petition to point out various defects in the management of • Mr. BRIGHT said he understood the noble lord, in the I the private business of the house ; and he (Mr. Hume) ass debate on the bill, to say that a negotiation had been ea- I confident it would ape, sr tote there were means by which . tered into, and an understanding come to, with the Arch- half the time of the house might be saved. (Hear, bear.) t bishop of Canterbury. Would the noble lord state whether This was the ',roper 'hue to make such a statement. , in that negotiation consi,leration was given to the contin- 1 , Mr. FRENCH—WiII the noble lord inform us if the 1 racy of the clergy reserves being alienated or secularised , hon. gentlemen who is t. !eke the chair tot Light is to be • by the Canadian parliament ; and if so, whether the Arch-1 permanent chairman of canunittets ? (Cries of " perma o bishop took on himself to negotiate on behalf of the church ' asat.l i of Scotland, which repudiated all connexion with bishops? i Loru J. RUSSELL—What the Inn. member for Mont Lord J. RUSSELL said that be thought he bad clearly i Mom hat. observed was very no/somata. The hon. gentle stated what had taken place. It was Sir Kasen Peel who • man (Mr. Paten) had com'nunicoted to him that there , conducted the negotiation ; he (Lord J. Russell) did not see were many ohs, rvations to lio made with respect to the con the archbishop, or have any onsnmunicatien with him, but duct of private besiness , ;,ml that would be a very proper ilia . cot] that obj pital of to the p tion of first am Cent. S a-Half at least that cot Three p at Two- tion in gratifyii finance! I think (hear, that. I fully ei capital Sir, I not th allowed purpos, in vie , ' public , and est oho shoul4 prrlls