The Express. — London, England, 1853-08-17 00:00:00

IM ItIAL PARLIAMENT. HMO OF 1.0111/B.—TUVIDAT, Avouss 18. TA. I ••»n CuomoLaos teak AM met it 5 refloat CMA•to KEY SUITORS RELIEF BILL AND LI/ AcY CARE AND TREATMENT BILL. Ups& meshes d Lord ST. LIONARD . 4 the Conitsoaa' Mitrodeeratr to the above NIL were sired to. CII titoll AGAINST MAJOR MOORE. _Earl tiKINVILLII win tarry to have to intrude on the bore age, with reference to India, bat he had • personal lettetn to .plein with reference to a gentleman who was Inn than to defend blaimielf. It appeared, in a short de bate which took place the other day with reference to Lek, tlin• be quailed the fact of the military secretary at Myibrealm4 help rimed certain persons of the rain emit wee' I seine a tef ie renuetl • COUTO* of mosey lead • b. to oma N; rasa& of which had been a cam plaiat t both bum pallamst. After having referred Ike ether bight Ss fhb —Major Moore—a noble ISO Mlles". erealla tbea la the house, asked if he was the setae penes had ricioired • penal in from the Maas, ae l presiesse Strictures on that gentleman's cos duet. Lei tine remixed • letter from M.jor Moon. wimp whited hlin M Mate to theit lordikips what he had to lag in Lis own doings. Is ths)rdnence of the noble earl 'fie node tkomminos en that gllntleman, he felt that the hater mutes low* be to read a short abstract of the corros poodeoce ebish lad bees placed in his hoods. (The noble owl wee read la • low and indistinct tone, ex tremes u +.l r. rtaia letters, the exact purport of which did set r, ..r.. the gallery, bat it was understood to be to re sleet t . ..it the pension of 600 rupees was spontaneously by the Nixisa Moult who highly complimented Of 'bore at the time for the ornieee he had rendered te ia psi torment) The C... adsted Plead ; The Militia Pay Tbe Ja Redemption . t ; The South Bea sad Hier Amami for Payment, &c. ; The Al. r hernias of 0 e en Act Amendment ; The Betting l l tl9llO j the CUAIMIOIii laclnsure (N 0.3); the Female Convict- be Loan Societies; Marriages Holy Trinity March Ii .lise Validity; Friendly Societies; Copy hold Comme.t.• Contiaaasee k Metropolitan Sewers Acts Coa- Ilaerep ; wen resa ianwid ,wing bids were then passed through committee : Land "1:,1 Commissioners Names; Detsciug the Coin; Limn Mt tut...tures (Ireland) ; Militia Ballot's Suspension esti 111111... Low Amendment; Bills. Tbe t•Turt of intendment. on the Pilotage Bill was re- NIA" 7rhil Merchant Shipping Bill, and The Drainage of Lands 0111111111%) Act AmeausuLat Bill were read a third time and possa. UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) BILL. Oa the , iun that this bill be read a third time , The No.. of 11.tDDINUTON said that he wished to call 111118ati-.. t ; a mu•tatement which had been made in the Ink an.• nt the public journals which he bad seen of what be lad awl during the discussion of this bill last night. It INS Matist ;u that, he thought, that the negative test pro- Willed by tue bill was a better thing than a religious test. 11114 dld 10. nay so; but what he did say was, he considered flee >•y •cue declaration in the bill provided a better me lba, secue'ty to the church of Scotland than any general which there wee any hone of being carried Nt i ti.• • about such a declaration. He may have added, and he bei;ved he did, that the negative test was better than the present test, which was a peeled farce. That was what he waist, and not that which had been stated in the Josue*: .rn question. and which he should be sorry to have go forth i:.•o Scotland. He bed also said, that not only on general K•ounda. bat at this time, and in conitequeace of Use ioit on in Scotland on the subject, that a reli gious t• -uch as he should afterwards take the liberty of /SOTIIN. • • • due to the church of s.otland. The ; . yes then read a third time and passed. The . toyment of Children in Factories Bill and the Public tv •.he Act Atnen;:ment (Ireland) Bill were read a third Imp. end passed. BMOKI. NUISANCE ABATEMENT (METROPOLIS) BILL. The ir, l l passed through committee. On tlri location that the report be received, Lord !' rIDESDALR took the opportuntity of congratu lating rh h •use and the country, u well u the govern ment, um the pima' of a measure such es this. The noble lerd tn. 'uggeated lone amendments in the bill, but crid he shut press them, if they were likely to cause any &nubt r th pawing of the bill. After o l v. words from the Marquis of Lawehowwv, the report •a. arritd. The St,,k•in-Trade Exemption Bill, the Customs' Tariff Belt Cuotriats'Act Consolidation Bill passed through 00111111att.o, nad misreported. LRAIASTICAL JURISDICTION DILL. This •ch ens read • second time, and ordered to be com mitted. Tll,ir lordships aitjoursed at a quarter to 7 o'clock to TMm• y HOUSE OF COMMONS.—TUFADAT, Auo. 16. The : 4 ...a1ma took the chair at 3 o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The larsle amendments to the following bills were con sidered and agreed to:—Warrington and Altriacham Junc tion R ..luny (Warrington, ite.) ; Coleford, Monmouth, Usk, at t. l'-ntypool Railway. Rnabbr , he's Divorce Bill was read a third time and ' INN.. W' PUBLIC BUSINESS. - . . DECIMAL COINAGE. M % r. OLreference IVEIRA, with to the report of the nai ,, ,r upon decimal currency, and the inconvenience 40Eby h.,..kers and traders by the circulation of half. . . '..' .• • •a• llt,. on.. &fins at the same time, asked the Chancellor aI. the ... ' , must whether it might not be desirable for the onmnieri interest, sad the public generally, to give order. born 0.. 'Creasury to the Bonk of England to discontinue any (a. m. r issue of half-crowns • and to allow to be es ahriaireu ..t. the Mint all halfweenes that asay be paid into the B •,•i. lot silver Mall of ease 1111110MaahODS, so as •/. •• grads. ,to withdraw balf-drateue hese dreulation ? .. The t iIANCELLOR of the 110/111QURR said that the re.) -t of the committee upset issinal twinge wee 'sly just pr..- •e.t, and the evidence was set yet in the bands of iambs. • Hy was of opinion that the subject woad at• gain a ..ch consideration both on the part of government and of ti . house before any determination could be men le. A. r. garded the particular point which formed*, subject ~.! the boo. gentleman's inquiry, he had to state that no t , f crowns had been issued from the Mint since IBMl—(d...r)—and that there woad be no further lassie Mtn this lustier was fully combined. SALT DUTY IN nunA. Sir J. PAKINOTON Mimi IS he Inn Awn of menet it was the intention akar libikar i r egessoll ft pay to tte deliberate daisies of the s e( Omens tirMli redsrd to the salt duty la India sod also le en the President of the Board of Control whether it woo the datesttor ul her Majesty', goverament to effect any si is the a.u.le of levyiag a duty upon salt manufactaren lailik mud whether they intended to make any redaction's the amount of duty paid by salt in India, whether imparted or saasukctured in that sentry ? Sir C WOOD inn only my that be was as maidens as the rurht hoseerallie gentleman Ainesell to see a redole nt. of the salt duty. (Hear, hear.) Indeed, it was the Rest duty whin ought to be reduced by the Nest Indian government. (Hear, hear.) Bat he was met prepeted to dine say immediate reduction of duty, bosse► that must be leR to the discretion of the govern ment el Indic.. The right hoe. gentleman mast be aware that the revenue of India barely Waned its ezpenditare. An event whin he (Bie C. Weed) was happy to announce M the hoters—esmsely the seadoelas of hiatilitim in Bat- Mb-0 beme)--weedd enable the genets/ to re dose the saps stilton of ladle. It had been, end was still, the policy of the ladisagovenumst to nun the duty wheneur they meld. With vegan le the mode of collect ing it he should be sorry to lateellmee bonen that was a question of detail, which ought to be hilt to the local go vernment. He would, however. be sled to see a system of miss inumined if it amid be dens with tasty to the review.. Sir J. PAKINOTON said that so far as the right hon. lesseaet'e answer seat, it was satisfactory. He begged, however. to give Dodos that the question could net be allowed to mania a the present state. It was his inten tion, I. the neat menu of parliament, if the conduct of the led as puverantest were not satisfactory, to bring the sub ject under the consideration of parliament (Cheers.) TENANTS OF PASTORAL RUNS IN THE COLONY OF VICTORIA. Sir J. PAK INCITON then asked the Linder Secretary of State C.r the Colonies whether it was the intention of her Majesty'. g meat to propose nay alteration of the order is under which the tourists uf petoral runs 4 the co nny of Vittoria are entitled OD dilla Marts, or to mod ear new instructions to the gewgaw ea the subject of those les*, f Mr. E PEEL said that the matted referred to by the right h• o gentleman was perhaps the most difficult one under 11. e cousideratient of the Colonial-office, as very great and servos, difficulties were felt by the governments of Vic• tone sasi of New South Wales in putting tip to sale by &notion ixtd in sufficient quantities to meet the wants of *nee risons, who, having acquired wealth at the gold djegiss., were desirous of investing it in the purchase of lead. - These difficulties arose out of so order of council of 1147, based upon en act of parliament of the preced ing year, which gave to the holders of pastoral etas ri-rtain rights to leases, and renewals of MIMS, and rights of preemption. He was, however, unable to say what coarse the government would take in reference to the matter; it was still doubtful whether they would feel it neteesary to amend the order ia council, or whether they had ea 'eat powers reserved under that order to remove the difficulties in question. Sossethuo,r, however, would be done before the waste leads Gould be banded over to the colonial legislature. RUSSIA AND TURKEY. Lord J. RUSSELL brought op certain papers baying regard to the relations existing between various states and t►e Court of Rome. He then proceeded to @yak sa follows —Mr. Sraker, I now rise to propose that this hpuse, at its rising, do adjourn said Friday next. I have already stated that, before the prorogation of parliament, I would tudearour to make some explanation to the Muse ss to the relations at present existing between Russia and Turkey. I hare to thank the hours for its forbearance daring the present session, and in what I may have to say I shall not enter upon anything that may be considered a defence of the government, because the government has not been attacked In this house on the contrary, every disposition Us beat shown to leave fa the hands of bor eassolive arias& of the segotiatigas whisk have bens going on. (Ileac) I haws a few words to say, however, as to the production of papen which sons nun bars of this house think ought to Lars bass Lid upon the table, on this subject. I would sty that, oa inverting to what has been d.:ne, on peerless oosasions, inn under circumstances ezetedinuly critical, .I ban not found that it has been usual „ to lay . ‘ ort the table of the houses of parliament papers relating to aegotiations in • state similar to the negotiations which have been, and are now being, carried on mimes the powers of Europe. I and that in 1840, when • convention bed been signed by the various powers of Europe with respect to Turkey and, Egypt, my hen. friend the member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) asked my noble friend the member for Tivertoo (Lord Palmerston), then Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, to produce that convention, and lay it on the table of the house. That Itappesed on the 6th August, the pro. rogation being on the 11th. My n .ble friend declined to lay that convention on the table as it was zed ratified, but ha entered into some explanations, and stated that all the papers relating to the negotiations would be laid on the table of the two h 'uses of parliament at a laorr period. In 1844 sense discussions took place between this tenantry and Franca with respect to occurrences which took place in Tahiti, bat Sir It. Peel, then lint Minister of the Crown, beyond mentioning to the house at its last meet ing, which was in September, that an amicable adjustment had been made of those differences, did not make any com munication to parliament, nor were any papers laid upon the table. In feet, air, I think that aceordiag to all precedents with regard to matters of Ibis deseelidlon, the period for laying paper on ibis table is when the negotiations, whether they have elided amicably or otherwise, have been brought to some conclusion that will enable government to my that they are en a state to lay the papers before the home. It' has been alleged that on • late occasion I departed from this practice, in laying upon the table of the house papers relating to the transactions which took place at Florence with regard to the ; but I beg to observe that that was a negotiation which, on the part of her Majesty' s government, was entirely concluded. (Hear, hear.) I thought it necessary to make a represcntatien in strong language to the Tuscan government. I bad received • communication in answer, and it was not my intention to proceed with any further representations or negotiations. I wished rather to appeal to the public opinion of this country and of Europe. I had no wish to carry on any further negotiations upon the subject. Therefore the house will see that the cases were different—that the papers in the ease of the Medici were in a state to be laid upon the table. Now, with regard to what has taken place relating to Ramis and Turkey, all I propose at present to do is, to give an outline to the house of the tram actions as they have occurred, and to state what is the present position of the negotiations. I do not propose, it would not be fair or right for me to refer to any papers which are in the nature of secret papers and have not been laid before parliament, I will only refer to those transactions which, by the publication of different state papers and by the events which have arisen, have become known to the house and to the country. When the present government entered office my attention was imme diately called to the question of the Holy Places in Jerusa lem by the Russian mi,ister at this court, and I was told that that question was one of a very im portant nature, and would give rise probably to some anxiety. I immediately turned my attention to that subject, and I think on the very day I took the seals of office, I wrote a private letter to Lord Cowley, her Majesty's ambassador at Paris, requesting, as my predecessor had done, his earnest attention to the subject. At a later period, I was infirmed by the Russian minister that it was the determination of the Emperor of Russia to despatch a special embassy to Constantinople, with • view to put an end to the differences and complaints which existed on that subject. Tile Emperor of Russia complained that certain privileges which had been enjoyed by those pro-1 teeing the Greek religion at Jerusalem bad been withheld, and that certain concessions mad* by the Sultan had been withdrawn. It was, therefore, a legitimate object on his part to obtain a settlement of this question, and the Russian minister stated that as the concessions made at one time bad been withdrawn at another, it was the object of the Rus sian government in some form or other, by some act of • solemn nature, to obtain a settlement of these differences, which would not be liable to perpetual disturbance there. after. Of course I could not object to the special mission from Russia to Constantinople, but I stated my hope that that mission would be of a conciliatory ware, and that nothing would happen that would disturb the pacific relations betweea Russia and Turkey, and the other powers of Ramps Prince Menchikoff, 4160411 e entreated with that mission arrived at Constantinople, and had, I think, an median; with the Sultan on the 2nd of March. There was an un fortunate incident which occurred, which created a goad deal of alarm with regard to Feed Effendi, the then Turkish Minister of Foreign Affairs, who was pointedly slighted by the Russian ambassador, and who immediately gave in his resignation. This and other circumstances tended to create alarm, and Colonel Rose, then Chargé d'Affaires of her Majesty at Constantinople, at the request of the Grand Vizier, wrote to say that it might be desirable that Admiral Dundee, who was then coatemplatiug a cruise, should hasten his departure from Malta, and approach nearer to the waters of the Dardanelles. However, about a week afterwards them Mons were • good deal dis pelled; some of the reports which had prevailed were found to be erroneous, and Colonel Rose wrote • second time, stating that the Orand Viejer no longer persisted in his wish, and be therefore withdrew the request he mad* to Admiral Dundee. At a later period, in the beginning of the foUowing month, the month of April, Lord Stratford, who was then at Constantinople, was informed by the Turkish minister that certain propositions had been made to the Turkish government to which they were unwilling to molds. I should say, that up to t►is time the government of her Majesty at home, and her minister at Peterobarg had always understood that the demand to be made by Russia bad reference to the Holy Places, and were all comprised, in one form or another, is the desire to render certain and permanent the advantages to which Russia thought herself entitled in f of per seas belonging to the Orsek church visiting them places. Lord Stratford understood from the Turkish minister that It had been much desired by the Russian minister that the request made in behalf of the Russian government should be withheld from the knowledge of the representatives of the other powers. I believe that these demands woes unknown to the government of France as they were to that of England, and as unknown to the government of Austria se they were to the government of Frame. A considerable time elapsed, and the hoses has heard and will recollect reading in the papers that there was first • convention In else form and afterwards in another, and that finally Priam Menchikoff presented • note to the Turkish government, to be signed by the Turkish Minister of Foreign Affairs, which he stated was the last concession be could make, and he also stated that unless that note was signed by the Turkish Malian of Foreign Affairs, he, with his mission, would leave Constantinople, and that Russia would not be me- possible for the grave evils w h ich might take plan. Lea• gunge at least to that effect was contained in the sole of the Russian minister. However, the Terkish government did act think that the signature of such a ants would be compatible with the indspeadenee of the Sultan, and they declined to affil: the signature of the Minister of Foreign Affairs to it. At the same time the Turkish minister, in stead of a direct and simple negative, wrote • note on his part, which he stated he was quite ready to transmit to the Russian ambassador if it could be taken as satisfactory, and thus to close all disputes between them. I should mention here that the question with regard to the Holy Places and the various details relating to the Greek and Latin churches had been previously arr►nged to the satisfaction both of the Russian ambassador and of the Turkish minis ter. Prince Mcnchikoff, however, instead of accepting this note of the Turkish minister or considering it as the basis of further negotiations, immediately withdrew his mission and retired towards the Turkish frontier. Sir, I consider this circumstance as one greatly to be lamented. It has always appeared to me that on th. one side and on the other there were some statements that could be admitted, while there were others which were, and must be, the sub ject of compromise and arrangement. The Russian minister maintained that Russia had by certain treaties— especially the treaties of Kainardje and Adrianople—the right to expect that Christians in the Turkish territories should be protected, and they declared, at the same time, that they did not wish in any to MO,e the in dependence or integrity of the Turkish empire. The Sultan's ministers, on the other part, maintained that it was their duty, above all things, to maintain the inde pendence of the Sultan, which required that nothing should be acceded to which could be injurious to his dignity, or detract from his rights. But at the suns time they de clared that it was the intention of the Sultan to protect his Christian subjects, and to maintain them in the rights and privileges which they had enjoyed from the concessions made and the edicts issued by himself and his predecessors. Such being the statements on the two sides, I own that it appears to me that the withdrawal of the Russian minister from Constantinople, sided,:at the one time u it Was, as a ammo of compulsion, by the propozotioo by 2 •! I; s, , . THE EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY EVENING. AUGUST 17, 1853. Russia of a large military and nasal force on the frontiers of Turkey, was a most unfortunate step, and has been one which has given scope for great elven. in Europe, while 'lt km impaled great set-rakes on the Turkish provinces ad joining %min. Her Majesty's government when these rip pretences home se serious, thought it necesary to give directions thee the English fleet should leave Malta and ap proach As Dardanelles. The French Beet bid • short time before been sent to the bay of Salamis, but Wry was a perfect concert between the two countries on this subject. It was alleged by the French government, and truly, that while their fleet remained in the harbour of Toulon, it was not so much within reach of any demand to approach Constanti nople as the British fleet was at Malta, and it was desirable that the two fleets should be ready to act together if wanted; that allegation was fully borne out by the factor because when the order was ultimately given to the two fleets to go to Besica bay, it was found not only as easy, but more so, to give directions from Malta and to convey the English fleet to Besika Bay than to convey the French iloet from Salamis to Besika Bay. Therefore the two countries acted entirely in concert, and they have endeavoured in a similar spirit, by daily and constant communications, to obtain a settlement of this question which should be compatible with the independence and dignity of the Porte, and at the same time should not lead to an interruptiou of the peace of Europe. The next step that was taken by the Russian government was a direction to the armies of Russia to occupy the Prix eipalities, with a declaration at the same time by the Roe. elan government that it was not to be considered as an ins vision of the Princi a mlities as an act of war, and that ft was intended to occupy the Principalities, asa material guarantee for peace, and as a means of pressure upon the Turkish go vernment in order to obtain those moral securities and gua rantees which Russia bad resolved to obtain by negotiation. It was considered by the English and French governments and it was considered by the Turkish government even be fore they had any communication either from London or from Paris, that it would be desirable, seeing what great interests were at stake, to forego the clear and undoubted right of Turkey to consider this occupation as a castes beU,, and that it would be desirable to enter into negotiation, if by farther negotiation peace could be maintained. No actual hostilities further than the occupation of these provinces by the Russian forces has hitherto token place. It was the opinion of her Majesty's government thit while they placed the fleet of Great Britain in conjunction with the fleet of France at the disposal of the ambassadors of the two powers at Constantinople, to be called up to Constantinople in case of emergency, it was at the same time desirable to gather up the broken threads of negotiation, and to attempt to arrive at some arrangement by which the peace of Europe might be secured. The different powers considered the various schemes for this purpose, but more especially the Minister of Foreign Affairs in Francs, a person whose talents, moderation, and judgment, it is impossible too greatly to estimate—(cheers)—who, by consideri.bly modi fying the objectionable parts of the demands of Prince Menchikoff, and those parts of the Turkish reply which the Russian government might think unsatisfactory en deavoured to frame a note to which the two parties might agree. no Austrian government, which had, as I have stated on a former occasion, declined a proposal for interference—l should say declined a proposal from her Majesty's government to enter into a conference on this important subject—when the Russian government had, occupied the Principalities, Austria changed her views on the subject, as she had declared that she should such a cis*. She pronounced that, in conformity wilt i s pirit of the treaty of 1841, it was absolutely necessary r the repreeentstivos of the powers to meet in conference and ,to endeavour to obtain some amicable solution of the difficulties which might otherwise threaten the peace of Europe. The Minister of Foreign Affairs of Austria took the proposition of the French government as the ground work of the proposition which he made. I have already stated on a former occasion that it was an Austrian proposi tion, but that it came originally front France. That propo sition was propos:d to be taken into consideration, I think, about the 24th of July, and no doubt information was im mediately conveyed to Turkey of the intention of Austria. Her Majesty's government requested to see the note as it was proposed, with such modifications as the Austrian go vernment might think it necessary to introduce. That, or course, led to explanations, to further communications, and it was net till the 31st—that is a week after the conference —that the final conference was held, at which the form of the note wan completely arranged, and settled to the satis• 'nation of the representatives of the four.poware and of their respective governments. The house has already heard, and the intelligence has been confirmed by subsequent informa tion, that the Emperor of Russia had given his adhesion to the note of the four powers. The Emperor of Ramie no longer insists upon the exact form of Prince Mexehichoff's note, which accading to some of the state papers which have been published by Russia would have appeared to have been the case, but the Emperor of Russia considers that his object would be attained, that his honour would be saved if that note, as thus prepared, should be acceded to by the Turkish government. I have stated already that it was on the 2nd of August that this note was sent to Constanti nople. There has not hitherto been any communication from Constantinople with regard to the reception of that aote, but this I will state, that on the 23rd of last month, the Turkish ministers were prepared to send a note to Vienna, and, subsequently, to Petersburg, differing from the former note, and with regard to which, I think, having agreed to that note, they would find themselves in a condition to agree in the note which has met the assent of the four powers. Sir, supposing what I say is yet unsettled, supposing that note be finally agreed to, if that communication should be made by Tur key, and it should be satisfactory, there would still remain the evacuation of the principalities. (Hear, hear.) Sir, it is quite evident that no settlement can be satisfactory which does not include or immediately lead to the evacua tion of the principalities. (Cheers.) According to the declarations which have been made by the general com manding the Russian force (Prince Gortchakoff), that event will immediately follow on satisfaction being obtained by the Emperor of Russia from Turkey. I willing, say further that it is an object which her Majesty's 'ornament wander essential, but with regard to the mode in which that object is to be attained, with regard to the mode in which that mad is to be 'vented, I must salt for the permission of parliament to say nothing further on that head, but to leave the means—the end undoubtedly, cer tainly, one to be attained—to leave the means in the bands of the executive government. With regard to the question as to the fleets of England and France, for that of course UM, cannot be made any provision, because we ought to have it In our power at all times to send our fleet to the neighbourhood of the Dardanelles to be ready ;to assist Turkey in case she is in danger, and not to consent to any arrangement by which it should be stipulated that the advance of the fiesta to the neighbourhood of the Darda nelles should be considered as equivalent to the actual invasion of Turkey. With regard to the future station of the fleet, of coarse, if peace is secured Besika Bay is not a station of any advantage to the government either or England or France. With regard to anything further, I can only say, that while I regret not to be able to state that the whole of these transactions are terminated, yet I do think that there is now a fair prospect, that without involv ing Europe in hostilities, the independence and integrity of Turkey, which, from the very beginning of the negotia tions I have always stated to be the main objects of the policy of her Majesty's government with regard to the affairs in the East, that that object, I may say, will be se cured, and that in no very long space of time. lam sure this house will feel, I know that this country feels, that if that object can be secured by negotiation without involving Europe in the calamities of war, it will be an object which this whole country will value, and upon which we shall have tenon to congratulate ourselves. lam quite sure that my noble friend at the head of the government may well congratulate himself, notwithstanding any attacks that have been made upon him that by a mixture of judgment and firMlll4l,l we shall be able to attain the end which we seek. I will only say we think that this question of the mainten ance of Turkey is one that must always require the atten tion, and, I may say, the vigilant attention of any person holding the conduct of foreign affairs in this country. I will say further, that I think it can only be secured by a constant union between England and France—(cheers)- 1 and by a thorough and constant communication between theme two countries. Sir, I have now taken a general out- I line of the past negotiations that have been entered into. I have stated the present position of the question. I have not entered into any argument on the subject. I do not think this is the proper occasion to do so. If, hereafter, upon the papers being produced, any member of this house should think that the conduct which has been pursued, that the policy which has been adopted requires lengthened observation on his part, then I shall be ready to meet these observations—l shall be then ready to defend the coon• which has been punned, and give the house such a statement as is consistent with my public duty• (Chinn.) Mr. LAYARD said the noble lord commenced by stating that he bad DO sued to defend the conduct of her Majesty's government. es it had not been attacked in that house. I There Out been a very good reason for Its not being at tacked, for than had been no opposition. (Hear, bear.) At the some time he had shown no factious wish to force a discussion on the subject. He trusted the Ammo would believe that he should not address them on this subject, did he not feel that he could throw some light upon the subject. At the beginning of the session he was under the Impression that a discussion in that house, and a state- most of the position they were in, would prevent much misunderstanding on the subject, and contribute to keeping her Majesty's government in • wise courn. The noble lord at the head of her Majesty's government on all occa. sions said that his policy was founded on peace. He did not think that that was language worthy of the position of the prima minister of this country. He should say that his policy ought to be that policy which was for the interest of this country. If that policy and interest demanded war, there was not a men in this country who would not gladly make the sacrifices which war would entail upon him. If, en the other hand, that interest required peace, there was ao man who would not make similar sacrifices to preserve peace. If the noble lord the member for Tiverton had been at the head of Foreign Affairs we should not have heard language of that kind, not because this country was for war, but if we hod shown to Europe that we were deter mined to maintain our own rights, and cot only our own rights but the rights of other parts of Europe its which the )glance of power was assailed, we should not have been to the condition in which we now were. And that contended was the only attitude worthy of this country. He confessed it appeared to him that in this negotiation two very grave errors had been committed. In the first place, when Colonel Rose found, in March in this year, that Prince Henchikoff had commenced on his arrival to enter into a secret treaty with Turkey, and at the same time warned the government of Turkey that if they disclosed his intention either to England or Franco it would be equal to a declaration of war, and when at the same time Ituesia was forming large armies on the frontiers, he did say that the mere assurances which were given in this country and in Turkey were not enough. They ought to have called on Russia to have disarmed; they ought to have made prepa rations to resist her if she did not. Then there was a second mistake. The very moment the Russian government threatened that its forces should cross the Pruth we ought to have stated we should consider it • emus bar. If they had told the Russian government that they would put an end to true treaties by which it could interfere on the part of the Greeks if its forces crossed the Prutb, his belief was that Russia would not have dared to order her force, to crow that river. As it was, the Rus sians bad proved to the inhabitants of the princi palities that they could be invaded, without making a cases belli in Europe. By acting as we had done we had lost the opportunity of placing these principalities as a barrier to the further advance of the Selavonic race, and placing them on their proper footing, and making them a barrier to Russia and a bulwark of freedom. He did not think we had gained a victory. On the contrary, he be; lieved that Russia, without firing a shot, had gained a victory which was worthy of • great campaign. We had exposed Turkey to all the expenses of • war; we had ruined her finances, and we had humbled ourselves in the eyes of the populations of Russia and of Turkey. And what had we done ? Having encouraged Turkey in resist ing the demands of Russia, having plunged her into these difficulties, we;now turned round on her and said—" You shall not make the invasion of the priecipalitise a coma Belli, you shall accept almost the very terms that were offered to you previously." It appeared that a draft of the note which was to be proposed to settle these differences was first sent to Russia, and that she approved of it. Of 'curse Russia jumped at it, but of course we did not know whether Turkey would accept it. If she did not Russia would say to England—" You must fight with us to make Turkey accept the terms." (Hear, hear.) If Turkey were placed under this terrible pressure of course she would accept the proposal. Supposing the case were reversed, and that Turkey had invaded the provinces of Russia. Why, we should have forced Turkey to pay the whole expenses and to make an ample apology. Re said *hat nothing less than that as applied to Russia would satisfy the ends of justice. In this question we had placed Ourselves in the position of a second rate power, cad we had placed Russia in the position of a first rate power. With the alliance of France, and backed by the opinion of Europe, we weft in a position to place this question noon a solid basis. But what was the result ? We had humiliated Turkey,:tand we had enabled Russia to strike her a ►low (ram which she could never recover, and any attempt to make her an independent power again was utterly hopeless. Why Sweden, Denmark, and all the smaller states of Europe, which had depended on the character of thiscountry to preserve their independence, would see that it was utterly impossible t 3 struggle against the power of Russia. Sir J. PAKINGTON said they had reason to complain of the shortness of the conics on which this question had been brought forward. After the repeated postponements of the subject the noble lord must feel that his right hon. friend the member for Buckinghamshire would have de sired to have heard any statement which the noble lard might have to make. His right hon. friend only left town yesterday morning, and he thought he would be as much surprised as he (Sir J. Pakington) was surprised yester day, to learn that it was the intention of the noble lord to-day to make the statement to the house which they had just heard. Deeply regretting that the statements of the noble lord had not been more satisfactory, land he said this without the slightest desire to make these momen tous interests a subject of party difference, yet he felt bound to say that, until they were in possession of further informa tion, he mast reserve his judgment. Lord D. STUART disapproved of the conduct of the government in these transactions, and censured with asps rity the proceedings of Russia. If, he observed, we had a Foreign Minister who was not a minister of Russia or of Austria, bat of England, none of them deplorable events' would have occurred which had disturbed the tranquillity and endangered the peace of the world. Mr. MILNES thought Lord Dudley bad borne, too hardly upon the government, though he could not but say that they would have improved their position if they had shown a little more confidence in parliament, and not have kept back their papers when France and Russia had published theirs. Lord J. RUSSELL said a few words in reply to Sir J. Pin INOTON and Mr. LATAID. Mr. MUNTZ was of opinion th►t if we had had a dif ferent government, a Russian army would never have marched into the Turkish territory. The country felt, he said, that all sense of national honour was lost, and that we were governed by pounds, shillings, and pens. After some observations by Mr. BIACLnrr, also in favour of a bold policy, Mr. COBDEN said he had listened to many speeches, and he did not exactly see any difference of opinion. Every body was agreed that the conduct of Russia in this matter bad been treacherous, overbearing, and violent. He found there was a universal assent to that; and it was the most fortunate result of the late proceedings in the East, that they had brought about a firm alliance, not only between the people of England and France, but between the govern ments of the two countries. (Hear, hear.) They all agreed it was a vary desirable thing that Russia should not take possession of Turkey. Everybody wished that Russia should evacuate the principalities. Well, the noble lord had expressed his conviction that all those objects would be attained. (Hear, hear.) Aad he believed that everybody in the house, sad out of it, would be quite willing to wait for a few months longer, and have all those objects 110000- plished peaceably. He believed that even Birmingham itself, if it was put to the vote in the Town-hall—notwith standing they manufactured muskets there—(laughter)— would rather support the noble lord in a paci tic policy, to carry out the objects they all desired, sooner than precipitate the country into a war to obtain them a few weeks or months earlier. Notwith standing there was • complete acquiescence of opinion, there was still very great uneasiness on the subject of Turkey. The reason was obvious, but they would not look it in the face. It was this. There was a growing convic tion in the public mind that that which had hitherto been a current phrase—the integrity of the Turkish empire—that which had hitherto been recognised as a maximum of policy in this country not to be questioned, had now become a mere empty phrase and nothing more. For, no doubt, during the last 20 years there had been a growing convic tion in the public mind that the Turks were intruders in Europe, that their home was Asia, and that the Mahe:me dia: could not exist in Europe alongside civilised states. The progress of recent events bad given immense impetus to that opinion. The fact was, we could not maintain independence in a country if the people were not in a posi tion to maintain it themselves—especially such • people as that of Turkey, numbering twenty or thirty 'millions in Europe and in Asia. Another fact was, the exist ence of a large christian population in Turkey in Europe. That fact was forward until now; but it bad become the predominant elements of the question. He confessed he should be very sorry to see this country fighting for the maintenance of Mohammedanism. (Cheers) lie never himself get uo any enthusiasm for Mohammedanism. It kept the slave market, fin both white and block slaves, in Europe ; and he did not see why we should be called on to support slats ry in the east any more than in the west. (Hear, hear) But it was said that the preservation of Turkey was necessary to maintain the balance of power in Europe. Well, let them keep Turkey as it was—call it Turkey still, if they liked ; bat let them not suppose t hat they could maintain the Moham medan rule io that country. A great deal had been said about our comm rce. Asa free-trader he begged entirely to protest against he idea of fighting for a market at all. (Dear, hear.) He would never give his consent to fighting for a tariff. In the first place, he denied that they would ac-' eomplish their end if they did so. Ile believed that free trade principles would spread by peace ; he be lieved that they were making their way all over the world. We were making converts to free trade by the proofs we gave of its salutary results Besides the noble lord had given to the house a most delusive paper as to the commerce of Turkey with this country. That return in cluded our exports by way of Constantinople to the Black Sea, to great part of Central Asia, and up the Danube. But that was not Turkish commerce. Constantinople was a deptit where we sent goods ; but a very small portion of them was actually consurnid in the country under the domi nion of Turkey. Though he was no partisan of Russia, he was not sorry to see that power, the great representative in Europe of despotic principles, humiliating and demeaning itself, as it had done, by the mean policy it had carried on. But let us not delude ourselves with any danger to British commerce from Russian ascendancy. All the commerce we had in the Bieck Sea had arisen from the encroachments of Russia on the coasts of that sea. What was our coma:rice in grain in the Black Sea ? We did not get food from Turkey, but from Russia ; and would not Russia be as glad to sell us her tallow, hemp, and corn, in future, whatever mi,;ht be her aggressions on foreign countries It was a great fallacy to suppose otherwise. We had a trade to Russia through the Black Sea—not a very large one, be cause Russia had followed our example is restrictive tariffs; but a larger portisti of our shipping was employed in the Russian trade than in any other we hod. He therefore discarded altogether the idea that Russia was a country that discouraged trade. But what prospect had we of trade with Turkey—a country that was literally without roads, end where travelling was impossible, except on horseback ? These was not curb a thing as a pavement in Constanti nople, or a lamp, or a scavenger—except the doge. (A laugh.) Could a country like that contribute largely to the commerce of the world ? It was a well known historical fact that the Turks had brought blight, and desolation, and misery wherever they had come. He did not argue in de fence of Russian aggression —he did not want to see them in possession of Turkey : but let us not deceive ourselves, and say that we were keeping up a mercantile and com mercial people. Let them look at Petersburg—a city that might vie with London, which united the magnificence of Paris with the commercial character of our own metropolis, with a river almost twice as wide; then let them pass down to Constantinople, and contrast the two cities—the one occupying the most favourable spot on the face of the earth, —the other the most disadvantageous. (Hear, hear.) Constantinople had been well described by an American traveller as compseed, in the Turkish quarter, of rows of wooden boxes, with lids that were open all day and shut at night. (Laughter.) We could have no natural alliance with such a country as that; and he protested against its being argued in the interest of England that we were bound to maintain the Turkish power in the possession of this country. As to the balance of power, that was a political question ; but he objected to facts being brought forward which were not founded in truth, in order to mislead the English people as to their interest on this question. These points would have to be developed and reasoned upon for years. Nobody believed that this question was settled but no sensible person ever expected war to arise out of it. A great deal had been said about the Russian power, and about the danger to England of Russia occupying the countries on the Bosphorus. He had never shared that fear, even when people were more excited than they were now, and were crying out fur war with Russia. lle had visited Russia then ; he had done so since ; and all events had tended to confirm the opinion he had then formed. What an absur dity it was to talk of Russia coming to invade England. ' Why, Russia could net move an army across her own fron tiers without coming to Europe for a loan. It wasjawerful to its next neighbour, Turkey, because that cos stry was falling into decay ; and when a country was in oath a Oats, It, seigibours would go and take Ipossiession of as much of it as they could get. ►All he could say, therefore, was that the government did wisely in disregarding the cry of the thoughtless persons who cried out for war. (Hear, hear.) Some writers in newspapers, who called themselves democratic, called upon the government to take energetic steps. As if democracy had ever gained anything by war ! (Hear, hear.) He thought the government acted wisely, in disregarding such advice. The government had acted rightly, in the interest of the country and in the interest of themselves, in disregarding such advice; for if they had plunged into war, those very men who counselled them to take that step would be the first to call down disgrace on the ministry. (Hear, hear.) He would say nothing against the govern ment, for the policy they had pursued for the maintenance of the Turkish empire was a traditional policy which had I been handed down to them by previous governments. All he would say was, that when they got rid of this difficulty, as he was sure they would, the government of the day, which was at least as peaceable as the people would allow them to be—(hear, hear)—would not live long when they would feel that they had reason to be satisfied with the course they adopted on this question. (Hear, hear.) Lord PALMERS EON—Sir, I cannot allow the speech of the hon. gentleman to pass without one or two observa tions. I cannot accept the praise which the honourable gentleman has bestowed at the conclusion of his speech on the ground on which he has been pleased to plate it. (Hear, hear.) Nothing is so painful as to see a man of great ability labouring to bring about a conviction which he knows to be contrary to the opinions of the great majority of his fellow-countrymen, and which, therefore. he is afraid—l will not use a stronger expression—openly to . . express, but which he endeavours to conceal under every specious device which human ingenuity could afford to the practised orator. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman in the beginning agreed with every person and everything, and he ended in differing on all points. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman said he considered it to be a proper maxim of policy to maintain the independence of Turkey, and to prevent Russia from taking a portion of that terri tory which belonged to the Turkish empire. But in the course of his speech the honourable gen tleman showed that Turkey was not worth any thing, and that it was not of much consequence if it fell to pieces. If the hon. gentleman stood forth as the advo cate of the aggressive and ambition' policy of Russia, as the advocate of that system of policy which he pretended so lately to denounce and condemn, in the present state of feeling in this house and the country, I know not how be could dare to pursue a course more calculated to defend and assist and facilitaUi the views which be pretended to op pose. (Cheers.) I confess, sir, I never heard a speech in my life so full of contradictions. (Hear, hear.) At one moment he tells us that Russia—not as formerly—could be crumpled up like a sheet of brown paper— (laughter)—but that Russia is so weak that she is perfectly incapable of resisting any serious efforts that might be made against her on the part of this country; at another moment he declares that war with Ruda would be ruin to England. How can he reconcile the two statements ? (Hear, hear.) At on. time Russia is • barbarous power, with scattered territories, weak in the interior ; and then he launches oat into praises of the beauty of St. Petersburg, and because that city is more beautiful than Constantinople, he thinks that Russia ought to be possessed of both. (" Hear, hear," and laughter.) The hon. gentleman says free trade has made great progress throughout Europe. He has himself made a tour through Europe, and because he has been received with the courtesy and civility to which his personal qualities entitled him, he thinks that he bas persuaded all Europe to become free traders. (Laughter.) The honourable gentleman says that the efforts which this country has made in former times were in favour of low tariffs, and be uks what has been the result to this country ? Wby, sir, we went to war for the liberties of Europe, and not for the pur pose of gaining so much per cent. on our exports. (Cheers.) We went to war, not for the purpose of increasing the ex port of our commodities, but in defence of the liberty and independence of nations, and for the maintenance of that balance of power, which, however the hen. gentleman may treat it with contempt, because he does not understand it— (laughter)—everybody else considers to be a point deserving of mention, and essential to the liberty and well-being of mankind. (Loud cheers.) I admit that no man has done more in this country for the assertion and practical enforcement of the principle of free trade than the hon. gentleman, and I am the last man to withhold the tribute of my acknowledgments to him for the great services he has rendered in that respect. (Hear, hear.) But the hon. gentleman seems entirely to forget his principle when he compares the commercial system of Turkey to that of Russia. Dots the hon. gentleman not know —and if be knows, why does lIP s 1.( to withdraw the attention of the public Irons it ?—that the commercial sye• tem of Itu-sia is a restr:etive end pe .liiiiir,,ey one, while that of Turkey is the most liberal me that exists in any country with which we have commercial relations ? (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman says that Turkey is ins material in a commercial point of view, because, forsooth, we had no great commerce in the Block Sea till the time of the Empress Catherine. Why, sir, I never heard an arjument from the hon. gentleman less calculated to support the conclusion which he wished to draw. But it ' is not true that the commerce of Turkey is immaterial to this country. It is material to this country. (Hear, hear.) Her natural and internal products ore as impocant as those that come to us from Russia, and os her natural and internal resources increase, her commerce will b.curn, more and more valuable. (Hear, hear.) "Aye, but," says the hon. gentleman, "you ze under deception ; fur if you look to the returns moved for by an hon. gentle man, is:: ...• } 1 give us an account of the commerce with Turkey, you will find that the great bulk of it goes not to Turkey, but to other countriesithrough Turkey." Well, but would i eßw t o hun g iss ioci which se through or? ulr.um r(Bear,. ne T y u u a r f : k ceat hear.)rie consumer, pass u had i ot Whether,or t Aa: e i the hh i: ee r i orncehhfi therefore, wet r lwr y etp t h a oar r i or : effut through view it is of great importance to the commercial interests of England that Turkey should remain independent, in order that a liberal system of commerce may exist. (Hear, hear.) But the hon, gentleman is a great advocate of non interference. He says, "Do not interfere at all in the in ternal affairs of other countries; do not dictate to other nations or people their form of government ;" and then ho says that the state and position of Turkey must be spe. cially committed to the deliberation of the government and parliament of this country. (Hear, hear.) He says that the question which we have to determine is, what we are to do with the Turkish empire—(" hoar, hear," and laughter) —that we have to dispose of the relative situation of Ma homedan. and Greek, and that we are to decide who are to be the inhabitants of this part of the Turkish empire. a says that you are now yielding to a ♦ulgar prejudice ; that Turkey is a rotten fabric that can not last long; that the Turkish empire must expire ; that, as the Sultan, his army, and two millions of inhabitants aro only encamped in Europe—(laughter)—it would be I quite ridiculous and absurd to interfere for their preservation ; and that, on the contrary, we should conifer how best to dispose of their territories, and relieve Europe of their presence. That, sir, is a strange doctrine from one whe maintains the necessity of leaving foreign countries to decide on the form of their own government. (Hear, hear.) But, sir, I do not admit to him that Turkey, as an empire, is in that state of decay which be represents. I say that the mainte nance of the integrity of Turkey is not only an object de sirable, but one worth contending for, and capable of being carried out to a successful result. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman has been greatly misinformed as to the state of Russia for the last 3) years. (Hear, hear.) I assert, with- out fear of contradiction from any one who knows anything on the subject, that, so far from having gone back, Turkey has made greater progress and improvement than any other country in the same period. From the time of Sultan Mahmoud to the present period, Tur key, whether in respect to the system of government, as bearing on the system of the inhabitants, or in respect to increrepof power, has made greater advance iu prosperity than almost any other country. (Hear, hear.) Whether with respect to the increase of such manufactures as ales possesses, or to the extension of her commercial relations, in ■ll such repecta Turkey has made immense progress during the period I have mentioned. (Hear, hear.) So far from going with the hon. gentleman in that sort of political slang—(laughter)—which is the fashion of those who want to partition and divide Turkey—(hear, hear) — who say that Turkey is • dead body, or an expiring body, that cannot be kept alive, I am convinced that if you only keep out of it those who wish to get into it—(laughter and cheers)—if you only leave those who are now in it to deal with it as they now deal with it, so far is it from internal dis solution that I consider there are not many countries in Europe with whom it would not bear a favourable com parison. (Hear, hear.) I think it as likely to increase in power and prosperity, if you only keep other people's hands offit—(laughter),—as some of those countries to which the hon. gentleman has referred. (Hear, bear.) '.curkey has no Nand or Circassia. (Cheers.) Sir, if ever I heard a speech which, while it ostensibly commended the coarse pursued by the government, was calculated to damp the proper feeling of the country in support of that government, it was the speech of the hon. gentleman. (Cheers.) But, I am happy to say, it is the only speech we have heard to-night in that tone—(hear, hear) ;—and I trust it will not mislead anyone beyond the limits of this country, who might be deceived by it. I hope that such language will not excite abroad • feeling that might render it more difficult for her Majesty's government to bring about a settlement of the question satisfactorily to the he none of the country. (Cheers.) I trust that the great pre ponderance of the proper feeling and sentiment on this subject will have shown all Europe the real sentiment of parliament on this subject, and the determination of the British nation and the British parliament to support the government, and that, though there may be one man who wishes to see Ramie extend her conquests over Turkey. that is not the wish of the British nation, and that the go- vernment of England, supported by the people of England, are determiaed to maintain the independence of Turkey —aa independence which we think it essential to maintain both for political and commercial purposes. (Cheers.) I do not mean to go with the hon. gentleman into a re arangement of the Turkish empire, or to dictate to the Bulgarians, Slavonians, Greeks, or Mussulmans, who are to be their governors, or what their form of government is to be. (Cheers.) But it hu been the policy of this country to give advice to the Turkish government, with a view to those internal improvements which we thought would add to the strength of Turkey, and to the happiness and pro sperity of the people who are plated under the rule of the Sultan. Our suggestions have, I am happy to say, been attended with beneficial consequences to Turkey. Oar consular agents in the different provinces of Turkey inform ns that tranquillity has increased, I that justice is better administered, that oppression has ceased, and that those benefits have resulted, which it mast be the anxious desire of England to promote in every country which considers its advice worthy of its attention. If that system is pursued ; if England, united with France, determine that Turkey shall not belong to Russia or to any other power, and if that doctrine is enforced in practice, I am convinced that if no foreign power endeavour to destroy Turkey, our policy, so far from being ridiculous., as the hon. gentleman endeavoured to represent it, will prove • sound policy—a policy which deserves the approbation of the country, and which it will be the duty of every future government to pursue. (Loud cheers.) Mr. DANBY SEYMOUR was glad that the noble lord had shown, by the high spirit he displayed on this occasion, that he, at least, would not consent to be a member of a cabinet unless a policy in accordance with the honour and interests of the country was maintained by it. (Hear, hear.) The motion for adjournment was then agreed to. RETURNS ORDERED. On the motion of Mr. E. HOEKTON, the following return was ordered :—Copies of any memorials addressed from time to time to successive P,,stnissti.rs-General by the in habitants of the towns of Stoke. upon. Trent, Macclesfield. and Congleton, on the subject of the postal arrangements of those districts, with the dates of such memorials; and of any replies to the memorials, and of any instructions issued to the Post-office authorities in relation to the further postal recommodation of those districts. On the motion of Mr. Sornanox—Return of the amount of fees paid to the Office of Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues, the Office of the Board of Works, the Office of the Duchy of Lancaster, and the Office of the Duchy of Cornwall, by promoters of private bills, in the years 1862 and 184 for or in respect of any duty performed by those offices in respect of the signification of the consent of the Crown to private billy, di+tioguishing the nature and amount of the fees in each case, and the authority under which such fees are claimed, and their application. HACKNEY CARRIAGES BILL. The Hackney Carriages Bill was re-introduced by Mr. WILSON, and passed through all its stages, with the modi fied clause relating to the four-mile circle. CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL. On the motion of the SOLICITOR-0114111UL, the Lords' amendments to this bill were agreed to. DUBLIN CARRIAGES BILL. • . . On the motion that the Lords' amendments in this bill be agreed to, Mr. VANCE objected to the alterations made by the Lords in the penalty clauses, on the ground that their lordships had no power thus to alter provisions relating to money. Sir J. YOUNG said the alterations in quest , on had been made under the best advice. The SPEAKER read a standing order declaring that in cases in which penalties were enacted to secure the execu tion of the act, the House of Commons would not insist on its ancient privilege. The amendments were then agreed to, and The horse adjourned at halt-put 7 till 3 o'clock on Friday. I + l, •