The Express. — London, England, 1853-05-27 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS.--TifumpAY, MAT 26. The LOAD CH•11101141.0a took MS Seat et b teeletk. THE NEW LAW OF EVIDENCE. Lard BROUGHAM, on presenting a petition from Leeds on the subject of the law of evidence, tmk emuion to ob serve that although immediately after the passing of his act enabling the parties to a cause to be examined the number of commitments for perjury had increased, tory had of late very greatly diminished and were considerably less now than formerly. The noble and I d lord concluded by moving tot certain returns on the subject. Lord CA SIPMILL th'ugbt the act for the amendment of the law of evidence wu a very wise and beneficial measure ; and although at Bret several commitments for perjury were made, th y were mow very rare. The Marquis of BALISBUILY complained that the noble end learned lord (Brougham) hod made a speech and a motion, without giving any notice of it, occupying the first quarter of an hour, which was the period devoted to the presentation of petitions, and other routine matters. If this practice ass oontineel, as the orders of the house now stood, their lordships might be prev.•ted from presenting petitiora. Lord 111101JORANI said the noble marquis was quite mistaken if he supposed that any notice was accessary for bringing a moti m before the house. The E al of DERBY eel.' that it would bo impassible to peas nt petitions during tho time allotted to that portion of 0.0 business of the linage, if noble lords were to be per mitted to make speeches and m dim,' without giving the venial notice. The orders of the day were taken at • quarter put 5 o'clock, and if his noble and learned friend occupied the previous time, there would be no opportunity of tin strafing petitinrs. The Earl of WICKLOW said that during ten minutes of the first quarter oleo hour no petition was presented, and if the noble marquis had bean in the house, and bad peti ts me to present, he might thin have presented his petitions. • --- AGGRAVATED ASSAULTS BILL. Earl GRANVILLE, on miring the secoad reading of tins bill, lima that their lordships mu.t be aware of the number of instances in which cruelty had been pract i sed b husbands towards their wives. There was an old proverb which said . " A woman, a dog, and a walnut tue, The more they're beaten the better they'll be." awever erectable such a doctrine might be, he believed diet more protection was afforded to the tree and tb r i4 o 4l 4 :l than to the unfortunate woman. The pre sent bill p to give summary power to magistrates, and to enable them to commit for such assaults as were contemplated by the set for • period of six months, or impose a penalty of 20/. After a few words from Lord BE avatoNT and Lard CAN 1.117 LL. the bill was read a second time. RH FF AND COMMISSARY COURTS (BERWICK SHIRE) BILL. On the motion of Lord l'aranozz this ball was read a third time and passed. COUNTY ELECTION POLLS (SCOTLAND) BILL. Lord PAN MURK moved the committee on this bill, the object of which was to diminish the period for polling for elections is Scotland. What the bill proposed to do for Scotland Nei been already done for England, and he did woe anticipate any objection to the meir-ure. The main proposition was to restrict the polling for counties to one day ; but power was given to increase the number of pall ing planes, and to alter such places as might be thought necessary. After a few words from the Earl of EOLINTON and Lord C AAAAA LL. The VII west through committee. COMMON LODGING HOUSES BILL. The Earl of SHAFTLSBLRY moved the order of the day for going into committee on this bill. He said, how ever subjects of this kind might be beneath the dignity of noble barons, he was far from suesidering them be neath the dignity of that house, and far from admitting that the object of such legislation win petty and miserable. He had received the strongest testimony of the beneficial operation of the 'misting set. At the present mement them sure not less than woo° WWII living in registered buses, and the number would shortly be 100,000 and sissy foreigners, Anterteans and others, who had visited this country, partly perhaps with the view of " spying out the nakedness of the land," were perfectly astonished at what they lad witnessed. He had thought it necessary to sake these obeervationa in order to defend, not himself, bet the muslin from the charge of " cant" and " pseudo philanthropy," end to show that it was not liable to auk offensive imputations. If their lordship. would visit du i localities in which these houses were situated, and see how nose Pt benefit bad been derived from the operation of the present law, be was quite sure they would not wish to op- pose the slightest impediment to the passing of further re-' mutial measures. Lord BIKAUMONT could assure their lordship, that he bad no intention to interfere in the slightest degree with the passing of this hill; nod he should not hsve risen but fee the pointed allusion of the noble earl to some observa tions made by himself in reference not to this but to ano ther bill. (Hear, heir.) Those observations in no way applied to the present ease, for, In his judgment, not only was this subject worthy of their lordships' consideration, but it absolutely called for their interference. Though he might be in favour of such legislation, he could not useirpt the noble lord's measures without examination; but as his only objection to this bill had been rirniond, he should sake no further opposition. The bill then went through committee. THE CHIMNEY SWEZ - PIES REGULATION ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The Earl of CLANCAILIT aoseleated the select committee on this hill. The Earl of bad no objection to in- qu•rf, if it embraced the whole length and biradtb of the subject. Ile feared, however, that that was not con templated. The Earl of WICKLOW said it would be useless to take evidence which merely tended to show the necessity for the eluting law. The names of the committee were then agreed to. EVIDENCE AND PROCEDURE BILL, AND LAW OF EVIDENCE AND PROCEDURE BILL On the motion for the second reading of these bill., The LORD CHANCELLOR said that his noble friend (Lerd Brougham) bed introduced a measure for the pur pose of extending the powers of examining witnesses, and containing othet imp insist provisions. In some portions of that measure he entirely coagarred, but there were other parts of it which he did not approve of, and at his wines lion his noble and learned &had aesented to refer the bill to a committee, by wheat it was divided into two bills. Since this division of the bills had taken place, the anon law commissioners had made their second most able t on the subject of the mode of procedure at esemais rli rr, and that report extended to the whole matter awaited ia these two bah. There was a tinware now enaeshta for the purpose of giving effect to the greater part _ of these ve commendations, which he hoped to be able to lay on the table in a ...hart time. Under thew circumstantia l. and as It would be highly inconvenient to haws tene lee en the same subject before the bow% IM had again to request his noble and learned filial le anew the second of his bills to be again divided. Ms wile sad learned frien d could take from that bill the taw thaw which had reference to the ezamication of wilmsams, sad which would carry into more complete effect the valuable enactment known as Lord Brougham's Law of Evidence Act. Lord BROUGHAM said that he most willingly emented to the suggestion of _big noble and learned friend, foe it would be most incaniknieut to have two bills running ther on the same subject, and the IBIllailf• brought in government would not only be better framed and de • , but it would also have a mash better chance of being car ried than his (Lord Brougham's) bill. What be proposed, therefore, was, that the drat bill should be now read a se cond time as a matter et form, with an assurance that he would nut premed farther with that bill. He would take the four clauses referred to by his soh!" and learned friend, and propose than separately, which would complete the act of 18.51. The reesainiag pietism of that bill would de over till he saw the mown which his noble arid learned friend was going to introduce, and which he bad no doubt would esatain the whole of the elates, which he now palpated till the introduction of the govern ment measure. Masada', what he proposed to do was to move the re-committal of the bill to-morrow (this day), and that it be at isistroalon to the committee to divide the bill Sato two parte. Lord CAMPBELL would not apples the second reading, but he must protest against it as interfering with trial by jur lo . rd BROUGHAM mid that the bill did not in the least interfere with anything that was valuable ¢ trial by jury. The bill was then read proforma a sewed time. - INIMA. Lord MONTBAGLE roeet7apreeira t a petition from 8.401 Hindoo inhabitants of Bengal. Behar, and Orissa, against article 21 of the Act of 1830 of the govercteent of India. The polities was placed in his bawl for presentation by s meritorious officer of the East India Company, and now a member of the House of Commons, and this would warrant their lordships in believing that the petition was perfectly genuine. The Petitioners complained of the 21.1 article of the Act of 1&0 of the Indian govefeelaet, MY* they declared interfered with their relishes hogete, dontrary to the pledges made by the Eaalist i sooat that they would is ao way interfere with dle lc of the Hinds or llohaaamodaa ishabitaals of had ro forme* to the right at labodliaso ht the caw of osa arrta to the Christi** railidos. No ass maid Msure anxious than be was to anticipate the time whoa all blow Inv of the Christian religion &Soh be istradmod into India. But at the mine time those bkodar abed& sat be introduced amongst a po who by Mak or fewadobistalmo. The noble lord concluded by proloadas Ho low dad moving that it be referred to oho Win The Earl of EL LENBOROUGN amid he row he So parrot of expreseing his cenoarrenee in what had him ham his noble friend. The petitioners had jolt TWINS to somplaia of the grievance referred to, whieh was faessir tent with the pledges made by the legislature of this now try to the people of India, and with the conditions on which they held that country—those auditions being that they mould reepeet the lens and relight' of the people of that eenutry. Bct althosigh he thus far 'lnto with the peti tioner.. he was satisfied that in practise the act complained of bad not produced very much injury on this amount, that the number of pseudo.oonverts to Christianity were up to the present fine so iohnitely small that the ca et must he very few in which the act had been called into operation. That which was essential to the existence of our govern ment in India, and without which it wee cot safe for three weeks, was a continued respect for tho relig:oa of the peop!e, and the laws of property which depended upon that (Hear, bowl He hoped this subject would be taken into mat a/16one consideration by the committee. Earl GRANVILLE felt it necessary to say a few words in sisplanstion on the pert of the government. The noble lord bad omitted to state that the principal incenveni ' seers of the law of 1815 were objected to at the tinsels, the Supreme Court. Ile trusted their lordships would al with him in thinking that the general principles of the law were fair to the natives, real noble in themselves, and consistent with the real justice of the can. (Hiter,lattar.) After a few words from Lard MONTILAOLII4 Ibe Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said be hoped the noble earl (Granville) would look into the wording of the act, and see if he could not substitute some words that would be less prejudicial If the noble earl could so *snags it that the Hindoo converts should be u well off as before their conversion, and that oth.r parties should be no worse off, he would meet the wishes of all. (Hear, hear.) Some provision ought to be made for those of the family remaining attached to their old faith, in order that they might be enabled to perform the conditions devolving upon the whole. (Hear.) The motion for referring the petition to the committee was then speed to. PRICES OF PROVISIONS, ice., IN INDIA. The Earl of ALBEMARLE moved for returns showing the average price of provisions and the rats of labour, bathe different provinces of India, at intervals of 10 years during the halt 60 years. The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said that the prices of articles of support were infinitely lower now than when the British rule in India commenced. We inherited the coun try after it had been placed almost in a state of desolation ; and in consequence of the consumption and the waste, the prices of all commodities were exceedingly dear. Unfortu irately the revenue was fixed according to the then prices of provision., and hence the injury done to the cultivator. The revenue was Heed according to a war price, and it was paid now according to a peace price. That was the cause of half the miseries of India. The returns were ordered. MAL DON ELECTION. The Esrl of ABERDEEN moved thet their lordships should coueur with the other house in an address to her Ma jesty fur a commission of ingoiry into the Mahlon election. Agreed to. Their lordships adjourned at a quarter before cleat o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS.-TUURBDAT, MAT 26. The Ectuttatt took the chair at Pair o'clock. NEW hIENDLII Mr. MACKUCKON took the oaths and his mat as member for Rio. CORK ELECT ION. Sir I. Y. BULLER appeared at the bar of the house, and read the resolutions coins to by the committee upon this subject. (These resolutions appeared in the Expreu of the 25th Lost.] PRIVATE BUSINESS. The following bills were read a third time and passed: Aberdeen Railway, Bedale and Leyburn Railway, Edin burgh and Glueow Railway, Leads and Whitehall R ads, Portsmouth Railway, Scottish Midland Junction Railway, South E.u,tern Railway (Reading Extension de.), South Shields Improvement, Tralee and Killarney Railway, and Alston 'Wads. . . L pou the motion of Mr. MI4IIIOY, it wu resolved that the minutes of the evidence taken Mfore the committees on the Wexford, Carlow, and Dublin Junction Roilway Bill, in Session 1845, and the same bill and the Wexford, Wick low, and Dubliu Railway Bill, in Session 1848, be referred to the committee on the Wexford Junction Railway Bill. STANDING ORDERS. Upon the 11:1060U0146: 601 HZII. Ix resolved that three easeaben be a quorum in the committee of standing orders. ELECTION CO: Sir J. TROLLOPE appeared at the bar of the house and brought up the reports of the committee, containing the names of the members chosen to serve in the matters of the inquiries into the elections of members for the following places Liverpool, Bary St. Edmunds, Peterborough, =I Durham [The names have already appeared in the Expreu.] CHURCH RATES. Mr. R. PHILLIMOUB, after presenting a number of petitions on the subject, proceeded to submit his motion ha leave to bring in • bill to alter and amend the law r to church rates. Before going into any details, he to my a word or two as to the circumstances under which the question was now submitted to the notice of parliament. The house would be aware this the hen. baronet (Sir W. Clay) had given notice aim ammilmeat to his motion. Not having taken his seat lathe house until after Easter, he (Dr. Phdlimore) did not knew that the hon. baronet had publicly declared hie intimation of bringing the subject seder Ho observation of the base, and it was not until hs had gives kis own notice that he was advised of that fact. If he had then found that theatre proposition were iden thud be would of have surrendered his right of pre emies,' la favour gibe Wm. baronet, but that was not the ease • the tw• aseseese were at variance both in Semi and subsume& AMIGO he and the bon. baronet speed upon one per, the justice of excepting dissenten frees the paymaster ins* rates, in all other respects their meager's differed from sash other in substance, and they varied in point of form, ileemesch as while the hon. baronet prepseed es bind the hews by an abstract resolution, he (Dr. Philfiasere) is esemdsnes with the views expeend by Wrimoubsen _whoa the question was d iscu ssed in spesed esiblindy in bill and to carry into a law theta abennliens hi the untie"; system, which, in his °pi tigejtmlle, end piny alike demanded. (Neer, hear.) It was impettent in the first place they should be aware that le permed the chumh should make a large sacrifice of this wiliele was her due for the sake of peace ; and it was impertant also that the house should know what was the Millstate of the law, in order to enable them to decide, er ag hother it was ju s t that the church shield be called upsn Ineeeke that secrifies ; sad, 'stolidly In order that tilneglimdien el that hum who segues :NAM dissenting Mk eiw di at enenekile Ile WWI* tar lie Sear be the ober* *mid fah& • boar.rr i law he believed there was ne dos more clear than that it was the duty of every parishioner to entirilests he the mph end aniatenanee of the nave of the am& !t tllttatrli division of church property, via., MO part heft Whim another for the clergy, • third for the Mr* sad a fine* toe the peer, had never practically obtained in this lend even from the earliest times. The mainteasece of the fabric rested with the perishiosen, and it had been laid down by Buss Parke end other legal authorities thatahe parishioners in vestry assembled could alone make the order for the rate, that the parishioners ought to be assem bled for the purpose, sad that, being mumbled, it was their duty to make the order. It was clear, that under the existing law every parishioner was bound to contribute foe the repairs of the nave of his church, and that that obligation extended over all the property in the parish, of whatsoever description. (Hear, hear.) had it could not be denied that this osten sive power was founded es a maxim of law which the house mast es alder instate le de justice in this esse—that it was heeded en the imppositien, both is law and in fact, that I the shush end the stele were idestleal—he ar, —that ne time wee meth this( el any aebeowl difference of nligioe from that whisk the state este • , endowed., sad. peeduesd. (Haar, haat.) It could not be disputed by any undid Led that the whole law as it send was bassi ups that principle. (Hear, hear.) It would be for the bums to consider whether in the pre sent day the law and the fact remained in the same concur ream, or whether they had not undergone extensive alters tins, sad if so, whether it was equitable and jest when dm mem kr the law had ceased, that the law itself should remain. Before the period of the Reformation no difference of opinion in religion was legally ackaowledged, and dissent was not contemplated in the eye of the law, and that principle was not confined to that period, for long after the Reformed church was established uniformity was enforced by law. The state of the law as it Mood operated with great hardship on absentee, and with greet Washes also upon churchmen. In the large :manufacturing towns church rates had been for some years practically abandoned, and the consequence was that • few liberal churchmen bore the whole burden of providieg the mesas for maintaining the fabric, which, whatever might be his opinion in regard to the tiknenters ought certainly to fall upon the church mea generally. Mr. Edward Baines stated, in his evidoece, that skunk rates were no longer levied in Leeds. nor in any fifths mind* towns of the West Riding, and that the meow wee easily borne by a small number of churchmen, who made voinitary contributions for the pur pose, the mbar churchman escaping altogether under cover 'of the dissenters* exemption; and he added that if church make were abolished be did not believe there would be any doser of the churches falling out of repair, remarking, in peel; that the thMenten were constantly increasing the somber of thole places of worship all over the country, erstwithstandiag their liability to pay church routs. Re (Dr. Phillimen) purposed that all dissenters eltesld be exempt from the payment of church seem by the simple ream of stating in writing that they were dimmers from the shunts of England, and leading the document to the churchwarden. He th ought ne muiseientioua dissenter would say that he was subjected Is as intolerable grievance by that requisition. That state meat mead be kept by the churchwarden, and a certified espy of it would be evidence in any court is say matter re- lades to church rates. It bad been stated as an oblesties that it was not possible to define dissent, sad he had oisehiel that difficulty. It would be a hopeless task to Menge to devise a method by which dissent could be *fink but there was no difficulty in a man's styles that be was dissenter. He proptoed that • person so declared to be • diateater should not be called on to contribute, seylliiag for the maintenance of the elnereis nod the easimmry supply for the decent perbenesnee &dee melee, and as be obtained this exemption be WWI iime to have soy right to church race, or privileges, or esiemesies, that is, that he should not be able to compel .1•1111111ffieen te perform over him any religious rites. lie Ilsoldl Pim le et the option of the clergyman what he red' is is Mk respect, but the dissenter would not be dientlff r gay at one and the same time, " I dissent fees Ilse dos* her doctrines, and the administrations of her soviets, bat yet I insist that a portioa of thine serviette shall be administered to me." (Hear, hear.) He wooed also a mode by which a dissenter could return to the chin , * he bad left. He should be sorry to est off any person from the means of belonging to the Church et England, and he proposed (although it might excite the uerriment of some to suppose it to be anything dcoirable, yet there hat been instances of persons who, from motives of pique or want of consideration, bad left tic church,wishing to return to it) ; be proposed, therefore, regard being had to the proper ecclesiastical authorities, that under their sanction. on a dissenter's signifying his THE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EVENING, MAY 27, 1853. intention of withdrawing his objections, ha should be re stored to the church and to the obligations of other parish ioners. lie proposed also that dissenters should cease to kayo any right to appear in church vestries, or to vote on my question of church rates, or the management of church Impiety. Thee,' ith regard to the law which was left ia 4 operettas in relation to churchmen, who were to pay church rates. It had been said that it would be desirable that the payer of adjudicating on smith questions should be transferred to the magistrates in quarter sessions. From this he dissented. The law required alteration. At the preesat time there might be • suit brought in the Bishops' . 0-eart, from whence it could be taken to the Court of Arches, and thence on appeal to the Privy Council. But that was not all. A case might, like the Braiutree case, be brought by prohibition before the Court of Queen's Bench, sad taken thence by writ of error to the Exchequer Cham ber, and on appeal from thence to tte House of Lords ; so that there might be no less than six suits carried on about • question of as. Gil. (Hear, hear.) Now that was • state of the law that was wholly indefensible, tad which required alteratioq. The question was whether that should be done by improving the present jurisdictlea fir traesferring it to another tribunal. lie thought that It was sot desirable to transfer the jurisdiction to magi,- trete, at quarter sessions. The law stow gave great power to the bishop, to vestries, and parish officers. it was coca. petent to the churchwarden to make a rate without the vestry for providing bread and wine, the washing of the minister's surplice and other things necessary for the decent performance of divine service: but for everything beyond that, and which partook of the ornamental, it was necessary that a rate should be consented to by the vestry ; and they might reject the rate. Even after • rate was agreed to for such purposes the ordinary might prevent the placing of improper ornaments in the church, and in these days ornaments might have a doctrinal character which it would be inexpedient to admit into the church. He proposed that the law should remain as it was, but that the Consistorisl Court, when disputes arose, should decide them summarily, and rice veer; and that there should be only one appeal on points of law. If the jurisdiction was given to the magistrates they would often have very difli• cult questions to decide, questions of an ecclesiastical cha racter. anti with regard to which they might be called on to kneelers with the discipline and order of the elan& He AM not see why the Bishop's Consistorial Court dwelt met be nada • fitting tribunal for the trial of these q salon it was said that there was to be no Co Osart at all, and that the bishop was to be left without a legal adviser in his diocese, and also that be abeald be allowed to exercise an arbitrary power owe lie dergy. He thought it would be better to enable them enurts to perform their functions cheaply and readily rather than to transfer the lie to others. That was an outline of his plan. wished to draw attention to the evidence given by Mr. Baines and Mr. Offer before the committee of 18.51, which would show that such a plan would not be un•atisfeetory to the dissenters they represented. (The hon. gentleman then read the statement of Mr. Offor, which was to the effect that if the dissenters were re lieved from the payment of church rates they would be ready to give a quid pro quo similar to that now proposed.) One great objection which had been urged against this scheme was that it tended to a dissolution of the church and the state. He wished to take this opportuoity of saying openly that he for one would witness with regret the propo titian of any scheme which would deprive the state of the valsable assi•tance in the maintenance of religion, order, and loyalty, which she derived (and long might she derive it) from her connexion with the church of England. (Hear, bear.) It was curious that those who were the instigators •f opposition to church rates were of a different opinion, and bald that the best mode of separating church and state was the continuance of the present system of church rates. What was stated by Mr..Courtalres his opinion He said—" I do not know that I should be at all opposed to the law of eturels rate, so far as it devolves upon a parish the power of dealing with that church rate. I am not the leas opposed to any imposition of church rates upon dissenters ; and moreover, I would say, for myself and others, that we should deprecate above all things any legis lative settlement of this vexed question of church rates which would throw any portion of the church rate charges i upon the public revenues, having, in our own mind, the separation of what I call church and state, and believing that we have in these church-rate battles the very best vantage ground for advancing that question, which, of all others, is, in our estimation, the question of the age." It could not, after that, be reasonably alleged that his (Dr. Phillimore's) proposition had • tendency to do that which was called a dissolution of church and state. He was aware that he had exposed himself to criticism, and perhaps the censure and animadversion from various quarters. There was something satisfactory to one's self-esteem in confessing and deploring an evil, cavilling at any remedy proposed for it, and sitting down without proposing a substitute for such remedy. That observation was certainly not applicable to the hon. member for the Tower Hamlets; but he bad already dealt with that hon. gentleman's amendment, and he would not trouble the house again with • repetition of what he had said. But there was another class of objectors, whom, though he differed from them, he respected. They saw no evil in the existing state of things, they could not conceive that one friendly towards the church could propose such a boon to the dissenters without being • traitor to her establishment and an enemy to her institutions. He was not ashamed to own that to that im putation he was extremely sensitive. In ability to serve the church he was exceeded by most men, but in attach ment to her by none ; but because he desired that the bless ings of the church should be extended in this country, be deprecated the evil which would arise • from the separation of church and state—it was because he was most anxious that she should regain by legitimate (and by that he meant spiritual) means her empire over the hearts of the people, that he implored those to whom he had alluded to consider well a state of things which although unquestionably prescribed by law, yet brought odium on her institutions and her doeuines, and which excited a fierce party spirit against her very exist ence. (Hear, hear.) He had proposed a measure which in his conscience he believed would promote the religious peace of the church. He had no other object, whatsoever, and he thought he might without profaneness apply to this 01,1151170 the beautiful language of the incomparable ritual of the church when it invoked a blessing (and long might it do so) on the proceedings of parliament, when he said it was • measure which laid the foundation on which truth and butiee, religion and piety, would be established in this nelm, he would fain hope and earnestly prayed, for all generations. (Cheers.) Sr W. CLAY said, in rising to move the amendment of which he had given notice, he assured the hon. and 1 d gentleman that he acknowledged his lull right to avail himself of the priority which fortune had given him, and that he was happy to accept his valuable amistancenpon many polats in which he was happy to say they agreed. He agreed with him as to the disgraceful state of the exist ing law respecting church rates. In fact, it would be *triage if, after the 'eidetic* taken before the committee in 1851, there should be two opinions on that subject. No language could aggravate the discreditable state of the law on church rateo—nothin_g was certain with regard to it but its utter uncertainty. From the very first inception of • church:ate up to its final disposition, there was uncertainty. It was doubtful what was a good rate ; it was doubtful by whom it should be made, sad whether they could be com petent to make it; it was yet more doubtful when it was made by wield proem it could be enforced ; and it was meet doubtful of all whether by any process the payment was worth enforcing. The whole thing would be ludicrous if it were not for the great inconvenience and suffering it occasioned. Truth in this particular ease was really stranger than fiction: no satirist could suggest anything so bad. I. point ef fast, though it was true, as the howsurable and horned gentlemen said, that there was a common law obligation on the parishioners to maintain the fabric of the church, yet there was no proems by which the obligates"' mild be enforced. The result was, that contests went on throughout the country in which the ordinary animosity of strife was enhanced by the infusion of Religious bigotry, and in many of our great towns the at tempts to levy • rate had been unsuccessful. He believed that in Leeds, Bradford, Halifax, Wiikefield, Huddersfield, Manchester, Leicester, Nottingham, Bath, Tavistock, Bir mingham, Sheffield, and some other towns, no church rate had been levied for years. Where the aonoonformist duns were numerous church rates had been got rid of, bat where those classes were either few in number or poor, the vexations attendant upon church rates still abounded. In this sta's of affairs what was the remedy the hon. am: learned gentleman proposed? He understood that he pro posed to continue church rata, but to ermine their opera tion to the members of the established church, and that any dissenter by making a declaration before some stitut ed authority, should theuceforward be relieved from them. Another part of his plan was, to still retain the ecclesiasti cal court,. This scheme had been more than once brought f rward in that house. In 1840 the hon. member for Fins bury, Mr. Buncombe, moved for leave to bring in a bill, which was almost word for word the plan of the hon. pen tium, and the house rejected de by 117 to 62. The same Um), in substance, was afterwards brought forward F a r. Page Wood, the present Viee- Chancellor, Sir W. ge Wood, arid notwithstanding his high character, and the esteem in which he was held, it found so little (senor that only 20 members voted for it, and Sir Robert Peel, Lord John Russell, and Sir Charles Orey, spoke against it. The objections to the plan of the hon. and learned gentle- On seemed to him so strong and so obvious, that he was agtonished he should have thought it worth his while to bring it on. Its inevitable tendency would be to make more prominent those differences of religious opinion, which it should be the aim of every wise legislator to soften. Why the very fact of dividing a parish into chute, each having • distinctive religious belief, would compel men who would otherwise have been scarcely conscious that they dif fered, to divide themselves from their neighbours on doc trinal points, the very existence of which they would other wise hardly have dise.vered.e could ßut ensurehowci thidte valhe hoidty of hon. end bashed gen tleman suppose h Weems Would he my that the mon who had made the thogiereities was to be prevented from entering the church ? Was the parish beadle to stand there and warn him off? or if he entered the church, would he be liable to a suit in the ecclesiastical OEM? Then again it was the head of the family who was Ice make the declaration. Supposing the head of a family declared himself a dissenter, would the hon. and learned faro prevent his family going to church ? (Mr. ore—Certainly not.) Then an ingenious man might sod his family and his friends who lived with him to itharch and himself stop away and escape paying. But the hon. and learned gentleman said he would reserve a locus penittntia ; he would enable a man on going before the churchwarden nod paying the rate to again enter the church. Could anything equal the absurdity of such a system Did the hon. tad learned gentleman think his plan would be acceptable to the lay members of the church ? Why, the evidence before the committee was, that the lay members of the church were as dissatisfied with church rates as the dissenters themselves. The amendment he moved consisted of two parts: one for the abolition of church rates, and the ether for staking provision for the charges to which such rates are at present applicable from pew rents, and from the increased value which may be derived from church lands and property. As a member of the church of England, he bad no beaks- Von in declaring that be was prepared to support the entire abolition of church rate., without any substitute for them; and he said this in the full conviction both that such a course would strengthen rather than weaken the church, and that her members would cheerfully contribute towards her maintenance. (Hear, hear.) To doubt that would be disgraceful to the members of that church. (Cheers.) 'hen they remembered that they had nothing to pay for the support of their ministers, who were already richly en dowed, and that they had the exclusive possession of p.l those edifices which had been devoted to the worship of God by the piety and munificence of our ancestors, it was incredible that they would grudge the comparatively speaking, mere pittance required to keep them in repair. (Clues...) Certainly the members of the church had shown no such niggard spirit. They had built within the last few years more new churches than had been erected for centu ries previous • and they had dons so in most eases by the unaided certa of individuals. (Hear, hear.) He hod tried in vain to procure any precise statistic* epos this point, but Mr. Edward Baines, of Leeds, hat stated to the committee, on the authority of the Rev. Dr. Hook, the well known vicar of that twin, that since church rates had been abolished at Leeds the parish church had been rein& at a cost of 30,0001., six new churches bad been consecrated, and 37 schools had been erected at an outlay of 10,0001., making a total expenditure of 100,0001. (Cheers.) So much for the voluntary principle at work in the church of England. (Hear, boar.) But in the meantime what bad the dissenters done ? Mr. Baines stated that the congrega tion to which he himself belonged raised about 6701. a year for the purpose of paying their general expenses; besides which they had spent 14,0001. upon their chapels and schools and had contributed a large sum for missionary and other purposes, making in all an aggregate of 38,3001. in ten years and a half. (Hear, hear.) ?dr. Baines had esti mated the sum raised by the dissenting congregations throughout the country at the low sum of 801. each, and their number at 14,300, so that the total sum raised by dissenters of all denominations would amount to no less than 1,147,2001. per annum. (Cheers.) Surely, then, the members of the Church of England could not, with any regard to their dignity and self respect, end, let him add, with any regard to common honesty, allow the dissenters to contribute to the maintenance of their places of worship u well as their own. (Cheers) The pew rents would afford ample means from which to draw those expenses which were defrayed by that impost. Everywhere in the me tropolis, and throughout the great towns, where new churches had been built large revenues were Used in this manner for the support of the minister and to defray the expenses of conducting Divine worship. He believed that a vast majority of churchmen would infinitely prefer pew rents to church !gee ; nor need there be any fear lest by adopting such a contra they would be depriving the poor from gratuitous seats in places of worship. He knew no churches where rented pews were reserved in which a large number of free seats were not also pro vided. (Hear, hear.) As for the abolition of pews, be con sidered that with the present feelings of the people of Eng land that would be impossible. Pews bad become a part of our manners, cur habits, and customs ; and he did not believe that churchmen would ever consent to the abo- lition of the custom of having separate pews. (Hear, bear.) If a substitute for church rates, then, were necessary, (which be did not admit), let them look to the pew rents; but there was another and a more important source of means even than that, namely, the sepias revenues of the church. (Cheers.) He implored this government, and specially :the noble lord the member for London, to undertake the work of abolishing this odious and unjust impost ; by doing which they would earn a fresh title to the respect of the great liberal parts of this country, and they would establish a lasting claim upon the coati deuce of all to whom the principles of religious liberty were dear. (Loud cheers.) The hon. baronet then moved : " That this house do resolve itself into a committee to con sider whether church rates should not be abolished and provision made for the charges to which such rates are at present applicable—from pew rents, and from the increased value which inquiries instituted by authority of the crown had shown might be derived, under better management, from church lands and property." Mr. PETO seconded the amendment. As a nonconformist he begged to tender his warmest thanks to the hon. gentle men who had moved both amendments as consistent and liberal members of the churcti of Ragland. (Hear, hear.) The supporters of every tax must be prepared to show that it was a good public tax ; but church rates, both in their origin and their effect, altogether failed to answer that test. (Hear, hear.) Dr. Lushington bad admitted that the exist ence of dissenters bad introduced a completely new element into the matter, and one which did not exist when the im post was established. The only argument in favour of church rates was that all p. rsons derived good from the beneficial in fluence of the ministers of the church. Well, he admitted that meet cheerfully, but surely churchmen derived as much advantage from the existence of an equal number of non conformist ministers as the dissenters derived from the ' clergymen of the church? (Hear, heat.) If the noble member for London (Lord J. Russell) who bad already so distinguished himself in the cause of religious toleration, would yet further distinguish himself, he might do it in a manner which would not readily be forgotten, by reforming the church with no sparing hand, and by em , the vest sums thus placed, as it were, at his dis- Sin the erection of places of worship in those districts they were not few—which, notwithstanding the liberality to which he (Mr. Pete) had already referred, were still almost spiritually destitute. And, before he quitted the subject, he would remind the homes that there were in Calcutta fourteen native printing presses, furnish ing matter for fourteen millions of people. The prints which issued from these presses spoke continually of these charges against the English prelates, and referred to them as an argument in favour of the supeiiirity of the Hiodoo religion over Christianity. That these arguments were not altogether without effect, the following facts would testify. A sem of 80,0001., and another of 160,0001., had lately been given for the purpose of erecting pagan temples. In con cluding, he would venture to say, that when the die seaters saw the members of the church take the course which, in truth, was the only one to preserve it, then they would be found to have no wish to place the hand of spolia tion upon its property. All that they &shod was, to do their own work their own way, because they thought that way better than other people's. (Hear, hear.) Mr. COLLIER was extremely indebted to the hon. and learned member for Tavist,ck (Mr. Phillimore). His speech showed that the reforming spirit bad at iength pene trated into the regions of Doctor's Commons—a spot long held sacred from such an intrusion. (" Hear," and a laugh.) But while thus far he (Mr. Collier) gave the hon. and learned member his thanks, he was bound to say that be thought that he (Mr. Phillisnore) did not go far enough, and that the proposition of the hon. member for the Tower Hamlets (Sir W. Clay) was more suited to the case. It had been shown that the revenues of the established church were more than suMeient for the per poise contemplated, and the principle had already been once alarmed by the house. The amendment would receive hie support, for, while it relieved all, it did not fail to provide for the interest and safety of the established church. Mr. B. BALL did not think that conscientious dissenters ought W object to the payment of church rates so long as they wen required to do so by the laws of their country. It was the first duty of every man to obey those laws to whit& he himself owed his safety. However, the preset law upon this subject had undoubtedly failed in its peeper effect, and it was of the utmost importance to th i emestey that the subject should be decided. For him self be might say that he considered his position by no MON an seedinari or a pleasant one, and he felt that were he be ennemie his own convenience he would not have voted 1 ass spoken vipea that occasion. Upon former occasions he Imil express* *pinions contrary to those of many who had and him then, and he felt that he might do so now. NemeWasee he elmsedd not shrink from what he felt to be his duly. _Althea& a dissenter he avowed his liking for an established church; he liked it because he felt that it was the moms of inducing many to be religious who would under Mbar eireametasses be far otherwise. The object, thereto*, shish be imegitt the house should keep in view, would be, neither to injure the one party nor the other, but to strengthen both. That object he did not think the mo tion of the hon. and learned gentleman opposite (Mr. Phil timers) would fulfil. Many a man, caring neither for church nor dissent, would only consider hie pocket. He would argue to himself, " Ob, Ball is a dissenter, he saves 201.. by it; I will be a dissenter too." This was not the spirit which he (Mr. Ball) thought ought to be encouraged. It was, however, for the hours to decide, and that decision ought to be arrived at speedily. Mr. HUME urged the house to follow the same course they had adopted in the case of the Irish church sea, which, like the church rate in England, bed been long a source of religious bitterness and rancour, and which parliament had at length wisely determined to abolish. He could have wished his hon. friend (Sir W. Clay) had omitted from his amendment any reference to pew rents, and had confined it es the simple proposition that church rates should cease, leaving the void to be supplied out of the surplus funds del church in the hands of the Ecclesiastical Commis dosses. (Hear, hear.) The hon. and learned gentleman who bought forward the motion said the church must be E. to make a sacrifice for the sake of peace; but he r Hams) could not understand, from the hon. and gentleman's explanation of his own scheme, in what that sacrifice consisted. (Hear, hear.) Ins own opinion was that the simple and just way of settling this ques tion was, to place the charge of repairing the eimarch, and providing the articles necessary for the bond conduct of divine service on the surplus funds of the church. He should be Wad if his hon. friend would limit his amendment, as he (Mr. Hume) had suggested ; , bat if the question should be pressed to a division, he should vote tor it as it was in preference to the motion of the hoe. and learned member for Tavistock ; he hoped however that the noble lord (J. Russell) would render it unnecessary to divide, by declaring that the government were prepared to take up the question. Sir R. INOLIS expressed some disappointment that no comber of the government had risen to say whether they preferred the proposition of the hon. and iearned member who sat immediately behind them, or of their general sup porter (Sir W. Clay) ; to him, however, the question, viewed either in the light of the original proposition or the amendment, was equally objectionable. The first propo sition was, in effect, to destroy absolutely the nationality of the church, and to reduce it to the position of ono of the many dissenting sects which were tolerated by thostate. The dir inction between the established church and those various sects now was that the former was the church supported bythe state and upheld by thelaw, and if even as much money were raised for the maintenance of the fabric by voluntary con tributions as was produced by means of the church rates, to deprive her of the means which that impost gave, would be to deprive the elmedlli writseharactu as the national church, and to place her tapes an equality with the dissenting sena. The object, therefore, of the proposition was to constitute the church of England a sect depeading for its support upon the wealth of its individual professors; and to that he oh. jetted, as be had always objected. (Hear, hear.) The hon. and learned member for Plymouth had stated that the tax was unique, inasmuch as it combined every evil 011 every other existing tax. But who felt those evils ? He defied any boo. member on the treasury bench to produce a single instance of a tax in favour of which so many pen dons bed been presented to the house from those who paid it. 3,198 petitions had come in from the different parishes in England, preying that those who now paid this tax might be permitted to continue to pay it. (" Hear," and a laugh.) He was justified in saying that the hearts of the people of England as • body were identified in their church, and that they were anxious to continue to support it voluntarily in the way the law now enabled them to do so, but that they would not be parties to a proposal to re duce that church to the level of a dissenting sect. (Heir, hear.) For fourteen centuries had these funds been de voted to the maintenance of the fabric of the church, and he trusted the house would hesitate long ere it gave its assent to any proposition for abolishing them. The other proposition—the amendment of the hon. baronet the mem ber for the Tower Hamlets—was • more open and (he would use no offensive phrase) a more intelligible mode of getting rid of the Impost, and it differed from the proposal of his hon. and learned friend in so far that it suggested a substitute. His objection, however, to both propositions rested upon the same ground. He maintained that it was necessary to maintain the impost to preserve the nationality of the church, and that no substitute—no other mode that bad been or could be presented to the house, could fulfil the conditions that were applicable to church rates. It was a mere quibble to say that church rates was a tax upon persons; it was in all respects a tax on property. It was not a tax in respect of the creed or person of the payer, otherwise paupers would be liable to it, but it was a tax in respect to the property held. Ile recollected Mr. D. W. Harvey, in a speech he made on this subject man years ago, saying that he had been called upon to pay 14 church rates for his house in George-street, and he asked whether hon. members did not think that if he wanted to sell his house the purchaser would not inquire about that 141. as well as about what was paid for sewer rates, land tax, and all the other burdens, and make a deduction in the purchase money in proper:ion ? This was no doubt true ; but, on the other hand, did not Mr. Harvey buy his pro peny on the tame conditions, and did not he pay so much km for it in consequence of its being subject to this impost? I (Hear, hear.) Those who objected to pay church rates wished to avoid an obligation for which they had received en equivalent in the price paid for the property which was liable to the impost ; and, though he had the greatest re spect for honest and sincere conscience, of all things com mend him not to a conscience that resided in the breeches pocket. When he first saw the proposition of his hon. and learned friend, he thought the age of bounties had not alto gether passed—and it certainly struck him with astonish ment that, in a free-trade parliament, a gentleman should stand forward seriously to propose a bonus or premium on dissent. (Hear, hear.) They were told that if they did not surrender now they would soon hove no time to capitulate and make terms; but so far back as 1831 he re membered Mr. Harvey telling them that church rates could not possibly last more than a year or two. TM proposition of his hon. and learned friend was neither more nor less than to denationalise the church of England, and render it ono of the religious sects of this country. The dissenters Eel Raid all along get rid of church rates, and yon would got rid of the church. He felt that on every point the house was not called o• to adopt either of the propositions before it. As to church property. and any funds in the hands of the Educational Commis sioners, that was pledged to the purpose of the spiritual teaching of the people, and he would not consent to its misapplication. He should oppose both propositions. Mr. A. PELLATT assured the hon. member for Tavistock that he was mistaken if he thought his proposition would satisfy nonconformists. They never asked for themselves anything in religious or civil matters which they did not ask for others. They thought that to go informs patiperis to the churchwardens and say that they were dissenters, and ask for exemption from church rates, was • degradation to which they could not submit. Besides this, it opened the door to deceit, and a man, in order to avoid the payment of a church-rate ought, perhaps, to be a dissenter, and when the necessity for paying was past, return to the church. He assured the honourable member for .the University of Oxford, that noncouformisto repudiated the term tolera tion as quite inconsistent with the liberality of the times. In 1835, Sir Robert Peel observed, that there was not a single question except that of the Irish church, which so much pressed for a practical settlement as that of church rates; and after the lapse of several years since that decla ration was made, he (Mr. A. Pellatt) called upon the pre sent government to deal with the church revenues as the only means of providing a complete and final remedy for the evil. (Hear, hear.) Mr. MIALL said he must confess that he was a little at fault; for, having prepared Airmen fur an encounter, he found scarcely anything in the way of argument to oppose. Previously to coming down to the house he had looked through a pamphlet published a day or two since by the noble lord the member for Lynn (Lord Staeley), and he begged to tender to the noble lord his thanks for the spirit of justice in which he had striven to deal with the whole question. (" Hear, hear," from Mr. Bright.) If he did not concur in the noble lord's solution of the difficulty, he did not in the slightest degree doubt that he intended to relieve dissenters from an injustice, and the church from a reproach. (Hear, hear.) Hitherto, with the exception of the hon. baronet the member for the University of Ox ford (Sir R. Inglis) there had been scarcely any opposition to the bill ; and the strongest asseveration in support of the church-rate principle—the principle, that was, of an estab lished church—came from the hon. member for Cambridge. shire (Mr. B. Ball), who was himself a dissenter. (Hear, hear.) Several hours had been spent that evening iu con sidering how the fabrics and the service of a certain church were to bo maintained. That was no difficulty with the great body of dissenters, who, as appeared from returns made in 1851 supported no less than 17,000 buildings for religious worship. (Hear, hear.) They found uo diffi culty in maintaining weir fabrics indict carrying on service ; and it struck him as odd, not to say condemnatory of the whole system, that there should be the slightest difficulty in the minds of hon. members who belonged to the esta blished church u to the mode in which this guinea ought to be dealt with. (Hear, hear, hear.) The honour able baronet, the member for Oxford, said that church rates were • charge upon property, and that property having been from time immemonal 'seemed, • demand to have church-rates abolished was equivalent to a demand to have so much money transferred from the coffers of the church to the hands of the owners of property. It was easy to make such an assumption; but was it not the fact that there were hundreds and thousands of cases in which property was n assessed to church-rates until within a very few years ? (Hear, hear.) It was clear this was • tax on the person and not on pro perty, and they might therefore bona fide seek to get rid of it as soon as possible. There were two modes proposed of dealing with the question—one by the hon. baronet the member for the Tower Hamlets, and the other by the hon. and learned member for Tavistock. Respecting the propo sition of the hon. baronet he should, if it were put to the house, say " aye," though he should say so with more sa tisfaction if he had simply proposed to abolish the impost and had left the maintenance of the church to be upheld out of the funds which might accrue from the better management of church property. He did not like the syr tem of pew rents being recognised by law, and that those who wished to be exempt from this tax should lend their strength and influence to impose a tax on churchmen themselves. Then came the proposition of the hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Phillimore). He would not for • miemmit suggest the slighbet suspicion as to the motives id& which he had made that proposition, The hon. and leased gentleman was no doubt more anxious to relieve Ye sum church than to relieve dissenters from an injustice. Um hes. and learned gentleman would put the church in a polliss la which it could manna its own affairs. Ia ilist di die objects he had in view were highly laudable in sedgiess point of view, but, he (Mr. Miall) thought, were deaprous to dissenters in reference to the established Awe. The hon. and learned member would make the established church instead of a national institution a religi ons association invested with public funds. If that were the object, at all events it should be well expressed, and not adopted without full discussion. It appeared to him that the proposition thoroughly carried out would merely transfer that which was now a national institution into a private sect possessed of public funds. Under these cir cumstances, and unless he warassured by the promoters of the bill that such was not their object in any way, and that the national ecclesiastical affairs would continue to be as completely under legislative management as they are at this moment, he could not vete for the bill. But:with each an assurance as that, and giving to the house dis tinctly his own determination not to do that which would denationalise the present ecclesiastical institutions of the country until they could separate them entirely from the state—thas protesting, and taking the statement that the bill was not intended in the slightest degree to interfere with the right of parliament to deal with the whole ques tion of the ecclesiastical affairs of the country, if they should fail on the vote of the hon. baronet; then, under these circumstances, and with the qualifications he had stated, he should vote for the proposition of the hon. and learned gentleman. Mr. WIGRAM said he considered the motion and the amendment of very great importance indeed, especially the amendment of the hon. baronet ; because when he looked at the ground for resisting church rates, he could not regard these motions, aimed at church rates, in any other light than • similar attack on tithes. ("Oh ! ") The church rate was a tax on land as much as tithe was. He did not wish to make any alteration. He objected to the imposition of pew rents, especially in the rural dis tricts, because there the pews could not be let. He thought therefore there was no ground for the motion. The only argument he had heard for it was the condition of the great towns. There was the greatest difficulty in raising a church rate, hut was that a reason for abrogating church rates ? What he should propose in reference to this question of church rates was that • power of commutation should be given where the property had been improved ; and that the land) .rd should be the party liable to the rate, which would to a great extent remove the objection that persons, not members of the established church, paid the rate, be cause the great bulk of the landlords of the country were members of the neablished church. (Hear, hear.) Dr. Lushin:ton himself had suggested these practical points which he thought would place the law in a more satisfac tory state than it was now. (" Ilear, hear," and cries of "Divide." Sir G. GREY said that he entirely differed from the boa. and learned member for Tavistock and the hon. member for Oxford University with regard to the import ance of church rates to the established church. (Bear; hear.) He thought they greatly exaggerated the importl anus of church rates when they said that they regarded them as almost vital to its existence. (Hear, hear.) He thought it was injudicious in any friend of th at church to bind up its existence with the maintenance of church-rates. (Hear, hear.) He thought that church. rata stood in a very different relation to the church from tithes--(hear, hear)—for though church-rates se ers abolished to-morrow, he believed that the church would remain as firm as it was now, and u he:trusted it ever would remain, rooted, as he believed it to be, in the hearts of the great bulk of the people of this country. (Rear, hear.) He thought that the objections to the proposition of the boo. and learned member for Tavistock were %loan swerable. And it was curious that though they had been debating this question now for six hours, nu single member ram to support his proposition. (Rear, hear.) Ha had read the pamphlet of the noble lord with great interest, but neither the proposition of the hon. and learned gen tleman, nor that contained in the pamphlet of the noble lord was original, for twelve years ago the hou. member fur Fins bury, and in 1849 Mr. Page Wuud, then member for Oxford, brought for a aril propositions for exempting dissenters from the payment of church rates, and throwing the whole bur den on the member, of the established church. Ile opposed the proposition on that occasion on the ground that it drew • line of distinction between the churchman and the dis *enter which li - considered to be objectionable; and that objection was increased now that he heard the details of the plan of the hon. and learned member for Tavistock. lle stated then that in the north of England, with which he was more particularly acquainted, the dissenter and the church. man, notwithsteuding the difference of the form of their worship, lived or. teems of good fellowship with each other; and be was afraid that if a line of distinction was drawn by registering dissenters who claimed to be exempted from the payment of church ratio, many persons would claim to be so exempted. Aud this he firmly believed would tend to the injury of the church itself', and would impair that good feeling ant fellowship which pre- Tailed amongst different denominations of Christians, who, although they might differ in their formularies, were agreed on the great leading doctrines of their common Christianity. (Hear, hear.) He believed that access to the parish church would become a less desirable object than was now the case—ho believed that dissenters would not seek it, as of his own knowledge he knew they constantly sought it now, and that, having once declared themselves dissenters, they would not think it right to intrude themselves araciogst the members of the established church. But if this plan were screed to, or if the plan of the noble lord were agreed to, dissenters would thereafter be for ever debarred from any Of the rights and privileges of the established church. (Hear.) lie thought that the right to purchase admission to those rights and privileges by the payment of a miserable sum of money—for that was what the proposition amounted to—was a proceeding which the house would not enter tain for a moment. (Hear.) It appeared t r him that • plan which would debar persons who once declared them. selves dissenters from partaking of the communion in the parish church, from having their marriages celebrated in the parish church, and from burial alter death in the churchyard—though the hon. and learn. d gentleman de clared that he had no such intention with respect to the burials—was open to serious objection—nor did it much im prove the matter that they would be permitted to enjoy their right and privilege, according to the plan of the noble lord, on the payment of additional fees—to be asked, he supposed, as compensation for the nun-payment of the ahurch rates. (Hear, hear.) He could not think with the boo. member fur Oxford University, that this would be a measure of occasional conformity, but that it would be a measure to prevent occasional contormity. (Hear, hear.) It proceeded on the assumption that the whole population of the country was to be divided into the members of the established church and all those who dissented from it. He thought that would be a great error. Re believed that many dissenters, so far from regard ing the estabished church as an abomination, looked upon it as a church which had been the means of confer. ring inestimable blessings on the country. He therefore thought that any measure which would divide them by a strongly marked line would be fraught with prejudicial consequences. (Hear, hear.) Ile agreed with the hon. and learned gentleman who spoke lasi, that this measure if carried would not produce peace, quiet, and contentment in many parts of the country, and particularly in those places where disputes and contentions took place on the subject of church rates. This question of church rates had much changed since the last 20 years. The heats and con tentions which then existed to a violent degree had for the most part passed away, owing, be believed, in a great degree, to the good sense of the members of the established church, who, in their de sire to promote peace and unity, did not seek to enforce the church rate ; and the churches were now for the most part repaired by voluntary contributions. (Cheers.) But if, as the hon. and learned member proposed, more stringent means were to be taken to recover:the church rate from the members of the established church in future, he was afraid it would lead to a renewal of those scenes to which he hail referred as having happily passed away. (Hear, hear.) The hon. and learned gentleman then proposed to leave the decision of these church rate matters to the ecclesiastical courts. This he considered would be a most unwise pro ceeding, and would lesd us, in the repair of the churches, to a kind of Churchwarden Gothic in the administration of the law. (" Hear, hear," and laughter.) With regard, therefore, to the proposition of the hon. sod learnedmember for Tavistock he ahonld have no hesitation in voting against it. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the other proposition, that of the hon. member for the Tosser Hamlets, he ad mitted the full force of his objection ; and if he was pre pared with a bill en the subject embody ing his views, he would vote for it. But if he were asked to vote fur a mere abstract resolution he would not vote fit a proposition of that kind, which was to lead to no practical consequences. (Hear, bear.) Lord J. HUSSEI.L.—I cannot say that there is any thing very satisfactory in the propositions made to the house, or in the debate, in which they have bees discussed. The house must feel that the subject is a most important one, and therefore its decision ought to be deliberately made. I agree with my right hon. friend in the opinion that a church establishment may well exist without church rates, as we see that it does in Ireland. At the same time we, looking at this as a practical question, must consider in the first piece that this church rate amounts is a considerable sum. Those who have put it least, put it down at 300,0001. And in the next place we must bear in mind that this 61101 of 300,0001. is in many parte of the cow - dry raised without any opposition, that in many parishes there is no opposition whatever to the payment of this money, and that the sum so raised is applied to the keeping in repair and maintaining those ancient edifices which have belonged to the worship of the country from the first introduction of Christianity. (Cheers.) To part with that sum of money, therefore, bemeases a serious question. (Cheers.) But then, likewise, swie ought not to omit from our consideration that though a shuck establishment may exist and flourish without a church rate, the ground of objection to a church rate is not so mach that it is a peculiarly vexatious burden, but that it forms • fund for the repair of churches. The hon. member for Southwark stated before the committee in 1851 that the principle on which dissenters objected to church rates was an objection to the union of church and state, so that the objection was one of a civil as well as a religious character. Now, that is an objection not against this particular rate or tax, but against this rata as forming pert of the fund with which the church is endowed and established, and which, as bring established, is considered to place dissenters in a position of inferiority. (User, hear.) I am not going to argue the questions of church establishmente and of the voluntary principle. They are very great and important principles, no doubt ; but at this hour of the night I am not going to debate them now. What I wish the house not to lose sight of is that this is not a separate tax that is con sidered odious and oppressive, but ig Ul a part of • system which is looked on in that light; and if you were to remove this objectionable impost you would only open the ground for some fresh attack upon some other part of the church establishment. (Hear, hear.) Well, it may be wise policy or it may not to abandon these church rates; but, generally speaking, a general who has to defend a fortress does not say, "I will abandon the out works and then the citadel will be safe." (Hear, hear.) With respect to the propositions which have been laid be fore the house by the two hon. gentlemen, I must say that I was more struck with the force with which each attacked the proposition of the other than the skill with which he defended his own. (A laugh.) The hon. member for Tavistoek said with respect to the proposal of my hon. friend the member for the Tower Hamlets, object to pew rents being universally established ; for to make the poor pay for admission into our country churches, or to ex clude them from those churches, would be a very great hardship. (Cheers.) It would likewise be inconsistent with the principles and would prove injurious to the well being of our church. That is one strong objection to the hon. baronet's proposition, and I object to his other propo sition because I think there is not much need of additional meant of religious worship and instruction, and that whatever funds can be raised or added to the value of church property ought to be applied to the relief of that spiritual destitution." Now I think all we have heard very much confirms the objection of the hon. and learned member, and I can not but feel that it strengthens me very much in my own opinion against the proposal of the hon. baronet. But then comes my hen. friend to deal with the proposal of the hon. member for Tavistock. Re says that it will be a very great evil to separate the whole community into two bodies of churchmen and dissenters, and that a person who is once registered as a dissenter will probably become more hostile than if you leave him in his present state, in which, although frequenting a dissenting chapel, he may occasion ally attend the services of the church. Well, I think that in that argument the hon. member for the Tower Ham lets had the best of the dispute—(hear, hear)—and that, as the hon. member for Tavistock had almost demolished the proposition of the bon. baronet, so the hon. baronet, on his part, bad fired his battery with such effect that the wall of hie opponent was exceedingly damaged. (Laughter.) The proposition of the hen. and learned memoer has been con sidered on several former eccasions. It was objected to in 1519 by my r ght hon. friend, and by Sir R. Peel, who also pointed out the disadvantage of formally, and by act of parliament, separating church men from dissenters. It was also objected to by myself, who took a very brief part in that debate; and it seems to me that if carried into effect, it would no: only plate persons in a state of hostility to the church which they do not now occupy, but it would also act as a penalty upon churchmen. (Rear, hear.) Because, although the noble lord the mem ber for Lynn in his pamphlet says, that while there may be about fe'd,oool. a year collected as church rates, only 60,0001. are paid by dissenters. no one can say what will be the offset if this bill should pats into law. (Hear, bear.) Tnere is many a man who belongs to the church generally whose affection for it is not so great that he would continue to do so if he could procure exemption from church rates plc I in it w Chureh trust, t listen t lessen would give nt with it Mr. sistent 18:i; Clay, of Sir raembc Sir Wi hon. r reechog some c nude c He (M witness cept by to be q by ra fabric