The Express. — London, England, 1848-07-18 00:00:00

the registration of voters--this was not to be proceeded with. He could conceive no other result from its having bun allowed to lie idle so long. As showing the necessity far some measure of this nature, he might mention that there were not more than 60.000 electors—he believed the actual number did not exceed 40,000 —in the whole of Ireland, and in Dublin, though there were 21,000 on the electoral roll, not more than 7,000 or 8,000 were entitled to vote ; and he was told there were not fewer than 16 rates which the elector had to pay before he could vote. It was a fraud on the Irish people that such a sytens f franchiseregistration, which imposed upon the exercise of the every fetter which the ingenuity of lawyers could devise, s hould be allowed to ex ist. What was the state of Inland now, when parliament was abont to separate, without having passed any ter improving that country—and he could not forge t that in the prosperity or the poverty of Ireland the people of L ince. shire were directly interested ? Under the bill passed rinse Christmas, an Irishman had been transported ; but had peace and tranquillity resulted? Everyday they heardof new arrests for sedition or felosy under the new act ; day aeerday they heard of newspaper offices being broken open by the police, and the types and paper seized, and acts perpetrated under the authority of the law such as had not been witnessed for centuries past. Then clubs were being formed and orga nised in various parts of the country—in the south to oppose the government, and in the north to support it. They heard of bodies of 6,000 or 6.000 men meeting together armed, and they were now told the Lord Lieutenant dwis as c oming over to 'Englenil, he supposed, for a more close cussion with the government of the state of the country. And what was the cause—what was the root of all the political discontent of Ireland ? The whole question was one of Roman cathelieigni on l y one side and prise testantiam on the other. (, hear The Irish church was the roat of the evil, and while it remained it w, old continue to send forth those noxious branches by which disorder anil rebellion were spread over one-third of the empire. The geverament should have considered this question of the church when they were dealing with Ire land—that church of a small minority, which must go down, and which would bring down the church of England with it, if it were allowed to remain in Ireland as it was now. (Hear.) Parliament ought not to generate until these questions to which he had r, (erred had . been fully consi. dewed, and until something were done to give hope to that portion of the Irish people which comprised the great majori ty, repealer as well as others, who were net anxious for insurrection, and to show the people of this country that i it met for business. Much depended on the government n these matters. Had the noble lord declared to.night that parliament would not separate until the navigation laws were repealed, repealed they would be. (Hear, hear.) But the noble lord did not rise to the dignity and influence of his position. What was the position of the metropolis of England at this moment ? It was partially disf be- Callst it had returned a man upon whom the other house of parliament had set its ban. (Hear.) He could tell the noble lord that there had been prime ministers not more patriotic or able than himself, who, were they still at the head of affairs, would have the courage to obtain from parliament measures more in ccordence with the wishes and the in terests of the people t han he bail yet done. (Hear, bear.) Mr. J. YOUNO hoped the noble lord, if he really intended to persevere with the Lsndlord and Tenant (Ireland) Bill, would appoint an evening sitting for its discussion, when there would he a full atteielance. (Ileac, hear.) Mr. V. SMITH def ended ministers rom the charge of neglect brought against them by the lion. member for Man chester. That hon. gentleman complained of the time which had been occupied in doicussing Irish business, and yet he blamed government fur not bringing in a hill to abolish the Irish church, which, it undertaken by them, would be more than sufficient fir any one session. f ili ar.) The hon. gen tleman must have some idea of the difficulty of ministers in getting through their business by the position in which he himself was as to the game laws—a subject which had been in his hands more than three years. (A laugh.) There w ere two important questions as regard( d the poor of this country on which he regretted nothing had yet been dote during the present session—he alluded to the questions of settlement and emieratien. Ile hoped the rielit hon. President attic Poor law Board meant to proceed with the bill he had brought in on the question of settle ment. (Yee) For though that measure did not go the length he could wish, he hoped it might 1,4 to such a so lotion of the difficulty an should he 'beneficial to the poor. With regard to emigration, he thought it might be sp preached with more advantage now than at any former time. The colonies were most anxious for our superabundant la bour, and our unemployed labourers were eux:ous to emi grate. Ile hoped his right hon. friend would state whether he intended to propose any vote or motion on this subject before the session closed, which would probably give rise to Lord MORPETH was und:rstood to say that the bill Would be proceeded with. CORN DUTIES. Lord G. BENTINCK inquired what was the amount of duties on corn which had been remitted, and whether the noble lord (J. Russell) had env objection to lay on the table the minute of authority imaer which the remission had tni.en place ? Ile had further to ask, assuming that the pre ceediue of government in thus dispensing with the enteority of parhament in the maer wan illegal and unconstituuonal, whether the noble lor d intended to ask the assent of the home to • bill o f indemnity Lord J. RUSSELL coul.l not inform the noble lord what was the exact amount of duties remitted, but had no objec tion to produce the minute of authority which had been given to the customs, and upon which they had acted. With regard to the last question, he did not believe that it were uld be four.d thet that authority at all exceeded the law. an it otherwise, he should hue been peepmed to for a b i ll take . on ll of hiiem self the respunsibility, d to ask the hoese - demnity, but as the law had not been violated, no such bill WIN necessary. SPIRIT DE WAALERS AND B RITISH SPIRITS REHOUSING BILLS. In reply to a question from C .pt. Juntas, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQL ER stated that he propos..d to take these leek so they stood on the paper, but merely pro fornui, in order that the suggestions that had bean received from various parts of the country, and which had been embodied in them, might be printed; the bills would then come before the house in 'amended state, in which he hoped they would be adopted. ARTERIAL DRAINAGE (IRELAND). In reply to Sir P. Erosive, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQU Eft stated that the whole of the Worms , ion on this subject would he contained in tee general relied of the lewd of Works. It was in the hands of the printer, and would be laid before th e heuse with as little delay as possible. BUSINESS OF THE SESSION. Lord J. RUSSELL had, in answer to a question put the other day by the right hon. member for Ripon, saidb t e ha en t the he would to-day take that whic h of late years had usual curse of stating what were the bills government hoped to be enabled to proceed with during the present ses sion, and what were then they intended to abandon. In fulfilling that promise he would confine himself to the prin cipal of those measures, those which were of the greatest im portance; it was not necessary that he should go into any stateni nt of the minor bills. With regard to the first of those principal measures, the Public Health Bill, witch had already peed through the House of Commons, and had been reed • second time in the House of Lords, it was tbe intention of government to press tor the decision ef parlia ment on that measure, and he trustcd it would receive the royal assent before the close of the session. f Hear, hear.) Next as to the Incumbcred Estates (Ireland) Bill, that measure had come down from the House of Lords, since when many amendments had been introduced into it by the House of Commons, and it hid now gone threugh committee with the almost general assent of the house ; and he should certainly endeavour to press through the further proceedings on that bill, with the view of obtaining the event of the Lords to the ameudments, and to its ',using during the mewed session, believing as he aid that the measure was one of great importance, and that its enactment ought not to be delete ed. There was another bill which he had introduced only the other night, and which he proposed to move the second read ing of on Thursday next—the bill for putting a stop to the corrupt practices in boroughs. That was a measure which he thought it would not ho titling to postpone, and which he should therefore proceed with as he had stated on Thursday, and he hoped it would receive the assent of parliament. Then as to the Deeom the Relations w.th Herne Bill, that, which was also a unsure that hal coe down from the other itouse, was i the hands of m his noble friend the S-cretary tor Fore n ign Atreus, who intended, as soon as lie should be able to oliet'n a d..y for the purpose, to move its stoma reading, with the view of proceeding with it during the present session. lie now came to a question of the utmost importance—a measure which was founded on a r commendation contained in the Queen's speech at the opening of the session, but which, owing to the lengthened deheree on the navy and other esti mates and on the Income Tax Bill, though ministers had hoped to bring it forward et an earlier period of the session they had not Leen able to do instil May—he referred to the resolution on which to found the bill for altering the nave gation laws. (Hear, he .r.) And since the introduction of that resolution, in consequeoce ' a the lengthened debates on the ellen duties and other quotions, they hid been Jinni pointed in their hope of Leung on continuously with the diseuesion of the pre' micary resolution, and with the bill when it should be introduced. As matters now stood, considering the late period of the year, the very great importance of the question, and that the bill could not yet fur some time go up to the House of Lords, government had most reluctantly come to the opinion that they could not proce• d with it during the present session. (" Oh," from the protectionists.) At the same time he hoped there would be no objection on the part of the house to go into committee, with the view of assenting to tile resolution, and en ibline h's right hon. frisud to in troduce the bill; so that the house and the country might have it before them during the recta •, and be in powession of what wee really the character of the measure mitiku rs pro posed. (Hear, hear.) Ho telt that while this measure had been the subject of considerable discussion ir, the house and this country the failure of its passing in the present me sion would be a great disappeintinent to some of our moat im pertant colonies—(hear, hear),—and he thought it therefore his duty to declare that while taking upon himself the blame —if there was blame, of the delay—without imputing blame to any man or any body of meat iii that home, it was his duty to declare that the government props-cd to intro- ' duce the measure at the very earliest period of the next ' session; and of er the diociosion which it has received. and ' the approbation of the principle which has been expressed by a large majority of the home, the important province of Caada ad thom foreign poesy, to whom we had hel out the n expe ct ation that our navigetion laws would be d e repealed might rest confident that next session of parliament would see a measure--whether in ell torment exactly the same as that tee government proposed he would not say—but that in the next session a measure taking away the restrictions now imposed by the navigation laws weeild receive the amens of parliament. (Hear, hear.) With the measure with regard to the navigation laws government proposed to withdraw the Merchant Seamen's Fund Bill, which was consequent upon I that measure. There was another measure which haul received scarcely any discussion as let—the measure relating ' to the franchise and registration of voters for members of parliament in Ireland. That was undoubtedly an important measure ; but at this time of the yeer it was too late to begin a discussion upon it ; be therefore proposed to postpone that also to another session. The Landlord and Tenant (Ire land) Bill, which was also one of great importance to Ireland, to the principle of that bill they should endeavour to obtain the assent of the house before parliament pro rogued. lie attached more importance to the assent of ' parliament to the principle of this bill, in regard to its bene fieial effect upon Ireland, than to its details; therefore, who they they should he enabled to proceed with the details or not he proposed to ask the boom to affirm the principle. Them were certain other bills which had been introduced by his right hon. friend the President of the Poor-law Board, which it was intended to proceed with ; and on an early day his right hon. friend would explain the reasons why he thought they should pass. There were many other bilis in the long list before him, most of which were of minor im portance, several ef which hal not been brought forward by government, and in which they were not concerned, and to which he would not advert ; but having stated the intentions of government as to the principal and more important mea sures, he would now propose that the order of the day for the Merchant Seamena' Fund Bill be read, in order that it might he discharged. Mr. GOULBURN remarked teat in all the discussions which had taken place in either house on the auhject of our West India collide s, the repeal of the navigation laws had always been held out to them as calculated to confer irm meow benefit upon them—a benefit equal to 2s. or 2s. Gil. a cwt. on their sugar. Had the noble lord any other measure in contemplation to compensate the West India interest for the loss they would be subjected to by the continuance of those laws? (Hear, hear.) Mr. HERRIES entirely concurred in the coune proposed by the noble Ind as to the measure for repealine the navi gation laws ; and lie Louie speak fur others, who, like him, were opposed to thee. asure, that they would offer ho objection to the preliminary stagy' necessary to the introduction of the hill. It must not, however, be under stood that there was the slighteet change in their opinions on the subject, or that they en re to be precluded from giving to the measure, wren brought forward next session, their most determined oppeeition. Mr. BRIGHT thought the present not an unfitting op portunity to make one or two observations with respect to the progrem of the ss it the session, and the course government were now shout to pursue. He would not enter into any de ClAS'.on of the advantage of the proposed mea sure on the navigalen laws, which the noble lord now said was to be abandoned. *mirth it had been rerommended in the Queen's speech, and though he believed the majority of tall the great msnutaetueing, the commercial, and the ship ping towns in the kingdom were in favour either of a repeal or a considerable alteration of the existing law. (Hear, hear.) That the measure was not introduced till May was not the fault of the hose. Hie opinion was that govern. ment bad not b; en particularly anxious to pass the measure, he supposed because they feared the hos tility it would create on the otherhing side. He saw need no remon wh if settle of thos ts hail been l undone which not have been do e ne, and by which so muc eft h of the scission had been taken up. ministers might not have carried through their measure for repealing the navigation laws. He would call attention to otos or two facts which were calculated to create in the minds of the people out of doors the conviction that during this session their represen tatives had not attended to the duty which had bet n com mitted to their charge. The house met before Cbristerms for the express purpose, IA they were told, of considering the Bank Charter Act, and also the afflicting state of Ireland ; but the only measure of importance which was then tweed was one avowedly for the protection of the rights of property in Ireland, but in ruddy to disarm a certain portion of the , Irish people. That was the only measure before Christmas. I After Christmas the solos of Ireland was again the subject of discussion, and he believed that same question—the state of retard—had been a standing dish with parliament ever since he oldest member in it wag a boy. t 2ear," and a laugh.) Atter Christmas they passol an tatted to he fur the purpose of putting dowe die ter antes let Ireland, and for making that which h ul been before a misdemeanor a felony. They had also had before there a bill which the noble lord admitted to he one of great importance —the bill for giving facilities for the sale of incumbered estate, in Ireland—and no doubt that measure it passed, would he the commencement of the work of restoring health to the 'recital condition of Boland. (Hear, hear.) This mea sure had heen eielayeil until it was doubtful whether it could psis. There was another al of considerable importance in regard to Ireland—the bill for improving the trauehise and of the grand Jury laws, the amendments of the law affecting medical charities, and of the poor law; and, lastly, the measure for the estecurlon of the elective franchise in Ireland ? In every respect the people of Ireland had been deceived and disappointed by the wings, in whose behalf he had struggled to retain his seat M that house as a friend to the legislative union, but it legislation proceeded as of late years, though ho should not become a repealer—for he was now UM old to change hispolitics—(eries of " no,no") —yet he could not blame those who advocated the manage ment by Ireland of her own affairs. For himself he would say he did not care how soon the whigs changed places with tte hon. gentlemen opposite, fee the former were always better in opposition than when they undertook to conduct the affairs of this meat nation. (Hear, hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL said he had understood that his hon. friend had risen in order to put a question, but although he had made many observations, he had omitted to put the question he had said he wished to ask. (A laugh.) If he understood his honouratle friend right, he wished to know whether it wan likely that the bill for converting leasehold tenures in Ireland into tenures in fee would be introduced, and that question had been an swered by the production of the bill in a printed form. Tie hon. member for Manchester (Mr. Bright) had a lso asked some questions with respect to the affairs of Ireland, but as notice had been given of two motions on going into commit- tee of supply, by 'Alien the whole state and condition et Ire land would he brought under discussion, ho (Lard J. Rus sell) thought the present was not the proper occasion on when to enter into the general question of the elate of Ire land; but as the hon. member (Mr. Bright) had taken upon himself to represent the opinions of the government, and had stated that the government had declined to go on with the Irish Franchise Bill because they understood it would be opposed as b, ing a new reform bill, he begged to tell the hon. member that ho was wholly misinformed on that mat ter. With respect to his statement on the subject of the navigation laws the hon. member was equally misinfernuil, betimes the government had been ex tremely anxious to carry forward their views on that subject, but it was impossible to have introduced the' measure at an'earlier period than had been the case unless they had aniseed the Inflame Tax and the Mutiny Acts to have expired. The noble lord the member for King's Lynn (Lord 0. Bentinek) had referred to the reply made to Lord Elgin by the Canadian people on the subject of the navigas tion laws, and had inquired why that document had not been laid on the table. The simple answer was, that the Os vernor-Oeneral of Canada had not transmitted it to the Colonial-office. But, as a reply to the noble lord, he (Lord .1. Russet) would refer him to the original memorial of the Canadian., in which they state (speaking of the navigation laws) that " they did not believe that the repeal of those laws would destroy the relations which existed between Canute and the mother country ;" thus showing that they wished to maintain the connexion, and that they believed the repeal of those laws would tend to that object. The hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Forbes) had inquired with respect to the Scotch Registration Bill, which was now in the other house. If that bill came down soon his hon. and learned friend the Lord Advocate would proceed with it. Mr. FCiltßES—On what day ? Lord J. RUSSELL said he could not name the day until the bill came down from the other house. His hon. friend the hon. member far the University of Oxford (Sir It. IL Inglis) had remarked that ministers expected to prorogue parliament in the second week in August. lie (Lord J. Russell) entertained no such expectation. (Hear, hear.) He did not think it possible that it could take place so early ; but of course that would depend upon the time given to the discussion of those hills which were intended to be proceeded with. In speaking of Ireland and Irish measures, it had been alleged that, with respect to the Landlord and Tenant Bill, the Irish menthers had not been consulted. Now, that bill had been referred to a select comrotttee, of which a great majority were Irish members; and that committee had re commended the bill in its present form. The hon. member for Manch star (Mr. Bright), in finding Malt with the conduct of the g ivernment, had admitted that the Sale of locumbered Estates (Ireland) Bill was an act essential to the foundation of the improved social eon. dition of Ireland ; and he (Lord J. Russell) asked the house whether a greater compliment could be paid to the govern ment who introduced and pressed forward that measure than the alniissien made by an hon. member when indulging in attacks and invectives upon the government ? In reply to a question put by his hon. friend the member for the Univer sity of Oxford (Sir It. H. Inglis), he hail to state, with re. spect to the measure for the alteration of the oaths required to be taken by members, that public business had to much increased Once ho had given notice of that measure, that it was not his intention to make tiny motion on that subj• et during the present session ; but believing as he did that the oaths now taken were very unnecessary and almost drew ridicule on that which ought to he • solemnity, he should, early next session, renew his notice, with a view to their alteration. Al to the Diplomatic Relations with Rome Bill, he believed there would be no great opposition to it, and he hoped parliament would not refuse its taunt to it before the pees, rat session wee brought to • close. Mr. B. OSBORNE said though he agreed that diecussions like the present were unfit to be entertained, still he was of opinion that at this moment the houseought not to deceive it seller the country with respect to the real state ot 1 reland. nut was a matter of far too serious import to be dismissed in an easy off. hand manner, as had been done by the noble lord at the head of the government and by other hon. members who had spoken on the point. Ile intended to make no attack on the government with respect to their conduct towards Ireland, because on the principle that he would not vele ill of the deed, so he would say nothing against a dying and expiring government. (" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) Ile had resisted the cry for repeal, because he had thoeght justice would be done to Ireland by the Imperial Parliament; but he joined with the hon. member for Mallow (Sir D. N anus) in laming, that if session after session was allowed to pass—if promises made out of office were not fulfilled when in office, be would join the Irish Confedera tion 'o get the management of their affairs into their own hands. He must say that the conduct of the whigs towards Ireland hail been a delusion, a mockery, and a snare. They had induced their supporters t join them in a factious vote to turn out the right hon. baronet the member for Tomwerth ; and when they got into office the first thing they hail done was to pass a coercion bill, and since November the only remedial measure was the Incum bered Estates Bill; and even that would cot have gone on hut for the circumstance of the hon. and learned member for Plymouth having succeeded Sir 1). Dundee in the office of Solicitor-General. The course taken by the noble lord and his colleagues with respect to Ireland could lead to nothi but anarchy and bloodshed and he for one cared not how soon they were out of o ffi ce. Il e trusted a strong government, of any party, would turn out the men of straw who were now in power ; if not the tenure of Ireland by thin country would be last. ([dear, hear.) M. NEWDEOATE reminded hon. members that when the people of Ireland complained that more was not done for them, they forgot that they did not approach either the government or the house in a form or method that was at all calculated to conciliate. Ile was Rum the government and the legislature had not shown any indisposition to meet the physical wants of Ireland, and therefore ho utterly repu diated the doctrines held by the hon. member for Manchus ter (Mr. Bright) as to the destruction of the church of Ire land, and the hint that the church of England must follow the same fate. It was right for the house to toll the Irish people that while it was ready to meet and remedy any known grievances, sedition, conspiracies, and the formation of secret societies against the constituted authorities were not the means by which to conciliate this country so as to induce her to extend all her privileges and adsantages to them. As to an extension of the franchise, it had been refused to Eng land and Scotland, both of which were more fitted to receive it than Ireland, and therefore on that ground Ireland had no just ground of complaint. Col. DUNNE regretted that as the Qualification of Voters Bill had passed a second reading, and its principle been ther. by adopted, it was not to be proceeded with as one re medial measure for Ireland. lie thought the course pursued by the government would tend to itocrease the number of repeaters. Col. SIBTHORP did not rise to fire another volley against her Majesty's ministers, but simply to state that he should move, when reread e on, that the Corrupt Practices at Elec tions Bill be a second time that day six months. All those other measures the government were disposed to pro mcd with he should oppose, fir there was not one good measure amongst them. (Laughter.) The cacr of the day was then read and discharged. RUM DUTIES. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR OF THE EICKEOLER the house resolved Mull into a committee of the whole house on the Rum Duties—Mr. BERNAL in the chair. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he rose to propane the second of the measures which the government had announced for the benefit of the West Indies by facili tating the introduction of thcir produce into this hetcounry and he was happy to think that by the measure was about to propose not merely the interests of the producer hut those of the consumer heel been consulted. The principle on which the government proposed to legislate was, that as far as restriction went the colonial producer should be allowed to bring his articles into that market on the Lime terms as the producer of the Fame commodity in this country. Last year it would be rememb e r ed by those hon. members who sat in the last parliament that his first proposition had been a rential duty of 6d. per gallon, and that he had not then been prepared to admit the claim made by the British distqlers for a differential duty of 7d. per gallon. If then, in 1847. Gd. was a fair differential duty, it was not in the slightest degree inconsistent with that opinion, that now, under the altered position of citchrtstances, a less duty than Gd. would be adequate. In the first place be wished to state that he did not think it possible to deduce any direct conclusion from the mere consumption of spirits during the last year. No doubt that consumption was entirely to be attributed to the circumstances of the year, partly arising from short crops, and party to the necessity of diverting grain from the manufacture of spirits to the purposes of food for the population. This was proved by the falling off in the quan tity of malt brought into charge, and from the fact that cern imported fur the purposes of distillation had actually been re-exported to supply food to foreign countries. This accounted for the falling off in the revenue from these sources, and proved that the falling off had not arisen from the introduction of foreign spirits. The whole amount of foreign spirits entered for consumption in Scotland and Ireland was shown by the evi dence given by the chairman of the Board of Excite before the select committee. The quantity of spirits brought into i charge in Scotland in 1846 7, was 6,123,000 gallons, while the quantity of ru m entered for consumption there had been wily 382,000 gallons; and in irelaud, of home distilled ' spirits there had been entered on charge 6,037,000 gallors, and only 176,000 gallons of rum entered for home consump tion during the same period. Therefore nobody could soy that any effect had been produced on the consumption of home manufactured spirits by the inteeduction of so trifling a quantity of colonial spirits. He would now state why he thouslit the duty on rui reduced to the point he eras about to propose. lie tie r :ed that in the committee on discussion. Sir J. WALSH and rstood the noble lord to say that he would ask the house to agree to the principle of the Landlord and Tenant Bill, but did not int end to press the details this session. Ile feared such an arrangement wculd be most in convenient, and he hoped the noble lord would reconsider his determination. Lord J. RUSSELL had said that hr would endeavour to pass the measure, but that he attached more importance to thatrinciple of it than to any details it might centain, but he should not therefore refrain from proceeding with th, details if possible. Sir J. WALql.—But it was in the details that the real importance and efficacy of the measure consisted. (Hear, hear.) Sir R. INGLIS could not conceive with what hope his noble friend proposed to proceed with the Diplomatic Rela tions with Rome Bill, against which he (sir IL. Inglis) had that day presented a petition signed by 3,:a./0 clergymen of the church a England. When the hon. member for Man chester told them in a tone of eloquence which he hoped not to imitate—(a laugh)—that the church of Ireland must go down and the church of England with it, he would say to that hon. gentleman that he hoped and was confident that the church of Irelandaael England would lane survive his sect. With regard to his noble friend at the head of the govern ment, he must ask his what h^ intended to do with the bill of which he gave notice on the lot of June, for altering the oaths to he taken by memben of that house. (Loud cries of " Hear.") Mr. RICARDO said, that if the noble lord had been sin cere in the principles of free-trade he had so often enunci ated, he would not have abandoned his measure for repeal ing the navigation laws, which was in fact the keystone of free-trade. (Hear, hear.) But whether he was right in that opinion or not, certain he was, that it was de-eply wrong and mischievous to delay the settlement of a great question. In this case the delay would leave the shipowners, merchants, and ship-builders of the country in a state of the utmos t uncertainty, which must be productive of the greatest evil. Mr. HUME concurred in the hen. member's opinion, and called attention particularly to the effect of this extraordi nary announcement on the colonies, producing, as in this country, the greatest uncertainty. (Hear, hear.) The con duct of the government respecting Ireland was still more ex traordinary, for after great promises of measures of amelio ration, their chief measure was a wigging bill. (Hear, hear.) The hon. baronet the member for tne University of Oxford, expressed a hope that the Irish church would last 11.1 long as the church in this country. Ho (Mr. Hume) greatly doubted it—(lowl cries of " hear, hear" from the Ire ti members) —for he looked at that church as being the root of the evil in Ireland. Mr. LABOUCHERE felt as deeply as any hon. member the evil of deferring to another session the final decision of parliament on the question of the navigation laws. Indeed, he had in an early period of the present session, impr•esed on the house the necessity of settling that question, and all he would POW say, after the statement of his noble friend, was that the decision of the government to postpone it had been arrived at most reluctantly. lie was happy to think, how ever, that the discussion of the question had not been unat tended with advantage in Canada, and also in the West Indies,thepspers relating to which, particularly from Canada, would, he was sure, do much to convince the opponents of the measure 'submitted by government of the absolute needs sity of a modification of the navigation laws. Lord G. BENTINCK would not quarrel with the govern ment for abandoning the repeal of the navigation laws • but tie beard with the deepest su r p ri ' e the right hon. gentleman who had just spoken say that the correspondence from Canada afforded matter for congratulation, when he found it stated in a despatch of Lord Elgin,that if the river St. Law rence should not continue to be the highway of commerce to Canada, the inevitable result would be to draw Canada closer to the United States, and dissolve the ties which con nected her wi'h the mother country. (Cheers.) Regarding the West Indies, he should wait to see what they would say in their petitions next year to a repeal of the navigation laws. But he must just observe that there were now no less than 31,600 tons of sugar in excess kept out of this country by those laws. (Hear, hear.) Mr. MACGREGOR expressed his deep regret that her Maesty's overnment should have found themselves in a position th a t obliged them to abandon the ir measure on the subject. Mr. S. CRAWFORD complained of the non-legislation for Ireland. Mr. FORBES inquired what the government intended to do with the bill for the registration of births, deaths, and , marriages in Scotland ? After a few words from Mr. Slaney, Capt. Fechell, and ' Mr. Henley. Mr. W. FAGAN thanked the hon. member for Man- , chester for the way in which he spoke sf Ireland. Two measures were passed for that country with the rapidity of lightning—a coercion and a gagging bill—but the govern ment had wholly foiled in their promises of measures of amelioration, excepting the I ncumhered Estates Bill. Such a statement would not satisfy his con stituents, nor any portion of the Irish people. With every respect ter the house, he was of opinion, after an attentive consideration of the manner in which its busieess was conducted, that it was utterly impossible for the house to do justice to the affairs of Ireland—in fact it had not time to devote to the concerns of that eountry. Every succeeding day convinced him the more of the absolute necessity, in order to maintain the connexien between the two countries, that the affairs of Ireland should be transacted there, and that the laws by which she was governed ought to be passed by a parliament of her own. (Hear, hear.) Sir D. NORREYS inquired what had become of the Lill (for the introduction of which leave had been given on Friday night) fur the conversion of leaseholds for lives re newable for ever into freehold tenures. He had been given to understand that this—another remedial measure for De ism would not be proceeded with. At all events it hail laideon the table. ir G. GREY (handing a copy of the bill to the hon. member), chimed that the bill had not only been intro duced, but, as he saw, was actually p rinted. (Lau g hter.) Jar D. NORREYS said, he had not received a copy until that moment, and the statement he had male rested on the authority of one of the hon. members, whose name was a ppended to the bill. But , a p art from that measure, he must remark that the promises of the government with re spect to Ireland had been great, but their performances had Leen moat miserable. Where were the promind alteration tlon turned on benefit to the consumer ; the consumer was not at all interested in • quantity of rum being introduced in lieu of a quantity of splits of home production. On the contrary, the introduction of • more *eductive and delete rious spirit, instead of being an advantage to the consumer, would have altogether an opposite tendency. lie should not object to see the distilling interest of this c Amity . diminished by the spread of temperance, or by the duty being raised so high as to lessen the consumption of spirits. In 1846 the con sumption of rum in Ireland wasonly 74,000 gallons ; last year, with a differential duty of 9d., it was 176,000 gallons. It was gradually increasing • and, should this measure become law, the people in Irela nd acquire a taste for hat spirit, to their manifest injury. The Irish distiller, in particular, had great cause for complaint, when he saw that his interest as a manufacturer was sacrificed to the unryiest of a measure propounded by government, which had not given satis'ec tion to any party—sacrificed. too, in the teeth of the leaders and friends of the West India party, whose «pinions were decidedly against the government mea ure. If the measure were one of a comprehensive mare, carrying out the principles of free trade and cheap ming an article of consumption, it should have his decided support when ' he found that • measure which had neon universally con demned in the house and out of it was to he made the pre text for ruining the distillers—for such he believed would be its effect—he must oppose such a measure. There had been something like a breach of faith with the distillers ; for last year the right hon. gentleman had stated that a protective duty of Gd. a gallon would only be a fair one. Notwithstand kg this, after receiving varieus ref resentations from the dis tiller's, he had made the differential duty equal to 9d., an the distiller' looked upon that as a settlement. The distil lers were ready to carry out the principles of Gee trade in reference to their own trade as will as others; and Mr. Cur an emient distler of the metropolie, whose eviderincee, the right ' hon. gentl eman teemed to have overlooked, had stated that in his manufactory 40,000 quarters of grain were annually worked up into 800,000 gallons of Bntish spirits ; but that if the excise re strictions were removed he could work up annually 96,000 quarters of grain, and pre Luce his s p irits at 11.6 d. per gallon, the average price, according to the sight hon. gentleman, be ing 2s. Hence, the restrictions wire equivalent to an in creme of 61 a gallon in the price. He and other Irish representatives had been much disappointed in the course taken by the right hon. gentleman : he tht Wore felt it his duty to oppose this motion. was proposed, in the flint place, to make an allowance for the malt duty paid by the distillers; but it should be known that scarcely any malt spirits were manufactured in Ireland, malt was little used in the distilleries except in Scot land. In Ireland the quantity of malt used by the raw grain distiller was nearly double that used by the raw grain distillers in this country ; and 21d. a gallon would be more like an equivalent for it than the 11d. pee r:treed by the right hon. gentleman. After a cful exami nation of the various calculaticns placed bef ore the West India committee, he found the allowance of a penny a gallon for pl .nt was a fair one ; and that the right hon. g entleman had entirely overlooked. For the alterations be tween distilling and brewing which now nets es: eily took place, and the consequent loss of saccharine matter, an allow ance of 2d, per gallon at least ought to be made. As to the rectification, ho believed the distillers were quite cornet in estimating their loss at 314 a gallon unucr the present system of charging the duty at the worm's end. The right ben. gentleman was mistaken in supposing that no rectifica tion took place in Ireland; the government distillers distilled twice in order to produce a good article, and that was a species of uglification. That produced a loss of another penny , ma kin g in all 71d. per gallon. On the subject of the decreases, the right hou. gentleman had frankly stated to the Irish deputation that there would be no difficulty whatever on that head, and he stopped all discussion. The justice of the claim was so evident on the face of it, that lie could not do otherwise. The rieht hon. gentleman had r dmitted that the West Indian distillers ob tained a protection of 34 , 1. through not being charged the de creases ; hence, the British distillers were qufte justified in claim , ng that amount, even if the loss on the decreases did not reach so much. But the right hon. gentleman had made a mistake in his calculation. The mode of gauging adopted when the spirits came from the worm's end differed mate rial', from the mode of gauging them wit. n they came out of bond; and hence the miscalculation. One of the most intelligent distillers is Ireland state-I that upon an segre gate quantity of 225 ,780 gallons of spirits shipped to Eng land, the total deficient) , was above 4,500 gallons, on which the duty was 1,8581. 10s., end this they had to pay in lull. He contended that the sum of 343.. g allon was only a fair allowance for decreases. II the right hon. gen tleman persisted in maintaining the view be now took, he ought at least, for the sake of the home distillers, to keep the differential duty at 9d. Mr. Wood had stated before the committee that he had no means of contradicting the state ment of the distillers as to exclee restrictions, though he marled that where they claimed 31d. a gallon for decreases, only 4d. was due, and that therefore their claim for exc ise ise restrictions ought to be reduced in the same proportion. admitted that 6d. a gallon was a fair protection, hut argued that the excise restrictions ought to be fixed much lower than the distillers estimated them. Following out the cal culations of the chairman of the excise and himsel', the dis tilling interest in Ireland and Scotland would be seriously injured or by this measure. According to the report of noble ld (Lord G. Bentinck), the sincere an d able advtheo . tate of the West Indian interests, that body had no just Muse of camplaint against the present duties. He should, therefore, move as an amendment that the chairman report progress end ask leave to sit again. Copt. JONES thought the measure of the government would prove extremely injurious to Ireland. He should, therefore, support the amendment moved by the hon. mem ber for Cork. Mr. REYNOLDS said it was the opinion of the Irish die tillers that if the differential duty was reduced from 93. to 4d. they would be almost annihilated. He thought the RO vernment would not at least have gone below 6d., and that they would allow for waste and leakage. He understood the right hon. gentleman to say to the Irish deputation that there would be no insuperable objection on his own part to make the duty Gd. Ile thought that a great advantage was given to the colonial grower over the native grower by this measure, for it was after all an agricultural question—one be tween eats and sugar. The Irish and Scotch manufacturers had intolerable disadvantages to contend against in the excise regulations. The allowauce to the colonial importer was 3d. for leakage and natural evaporation, while the allowance to the Irish distiller was only a farthing a:.d a fraction of a farthing. He was a fret-trader, but he was opposed to the application of free-trade, as contained in the present mea sure to Ireland. (Laughter.) The Irish members who voted for free-trade in corn, and the Irish people who were in favour of that measure, acted with the utmost disinterested ness, for that measure was not for the benefit of Ireland. Ireland had, therefore, a claim upon the consideration of the how e. (Laughter.) She had been called the right lisnd of England ; let them bewere that they did not convert her into a left arm. (Loud laughter.) He thought that the colonies were a drag upon this country; and that she would be better without them. Mr. DARKLY looked upon the present proposition as part of the general measure brought forward for the relief of the West India interest, and he would deal with it in that aspect. He differed from the noble lord, who deserved so much credit from the West India body for his exertions in their behalf, with aspect to this part of the question. He could only account for the noble lord's opinion on this sub ject by supposing, not that he loved the West India interest less, but that he loved certain interests' at home more. It was evident from what had been proved before the committee how much the price of rum would be under the 4d. duty ; and he would be much surprised if its effect would not be to give great benefit to the West Indian body. As a West India owner, he would cnesider his situation much more desperate if they did not derive considerable advaltacte from the change of duty. The position of the home distillers had been much improved of late years, so that they had less to fear from competition than formerly. Ho thought the Chancellor of the Ex chequer had completely cut away the ground from the Scot h distillers. If they were able to compete with the English distillers in the English market they had a very poor case indeed against the introduction of colonial spirits. In a pamphlet lately published, called " Ooservations on the Evidence befere the Committee on Coffee and Sugar Plant ing," by a Scotchman, it was stated that from 150,0 00 /. to 200,0001. was paid to ' five or six Scotch distillers as hush money. The same observations applied to Ireland, so that the consumers of this country not only paid the dis tiller here, but they also paid for keeping the Irish and Scotch whisky out of the market. The chair man of the excise, who was the best authority, on this subject, said that 4d. would be a fair differential duty, and he hoped the government would-not be induced to act aside an authority of so much weight. The colonies would watch the conduct of the government in dealing with the question of the duty of rum, and would test the shi cerity of their free-trade opinions by the manner in which they dealt with it. If the colonists now saw free-traders linked together in supp o r t of a government monopoly they would come to a conclusion that that body was a very selfish one. He accepted the present measure as an instalment of sugars great strem had been laid upon • supposed difference in the case of the malt distil:ers and that of the distillers from raw grain. In thatdistinction he could not concur. It was clear that isoth competed with success with each other, and therefore both were entitled to equal protection. and adequate to o f for the one would be adequate protection tor the other. The malt &stiller' got an additional price for their produe tion,in accordance with the additional price of the commodity from which it was manufactured. lie did groun not d pit th theesier c l a ims to increased protection on the adoption of the system of rectifying their spirits. gallons;ht mita expense in Englend would not exceed 21d. per and further consideration convinced him that ne as he rig same ht in the rejection of these claims on that ground. I w n t way he had resisted the claim of the raw grain distillers on account of the alteration of the ime cornd d u ty. With respect to the malt duty they . cl because a certain quantity of malt was indiereneably necessary to enable teem to distil from raw grain; the proportion was 1 Ilth of malt to 11 lithe of raw grain. To that event they were entitled to some allowance, in consideration or the duty paid on the malt so indispensably usedlittle mo. They cleimed the 14d. per gallon, hut I Id. per gallon was a re than y were actually entitled to. The next claim rested on the de creases, for which they asked 31,11. per gallon ; and this was the amount put by Mr. Kaley in his evidence before the ee lect committee —the same amount as was allowed on rums but a parliamentary paper to which that gentlemen had re ferred showed that in 'retard the deficiency duty allowed en spirits warehoused in Ireland had only been equal to one farthing 15-100ths per gallon, while on that war. housed in S c otland tee allowance WAS Tio.looths of a farthing per gallon. These figures differed in a very slight degree fr. .m the state ment he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had made in 1847. That statement gave 33 100tbe Ma penny ter Scetland, and for Ireland inactly the same—a farthing and 15-100ths of a penny. With regard to England there were not the canes means of drawing an accurate conclusion; but it was evident that if an allowance per gallon were made a qual to what he had stated, it would be an equivalent for the whole loss from decreases to which spirits were subject in the warehouse. lie had been very anxious to allow the duty to be levied on the spirits coming out of the warehouse instead of at the worm's end, ae at present; bet he was sorry to say the risk to the revenue would be to such an amount that he should not now be justified in incurring it. As between the distil ler and .he revenue this alteration would incur the risk of losing 100,0001. of duty, whic h amount would be sacrificed by only levying the duty when the spirit came out of bond instead of levying it at the worm's end. So far as protection against colonial spirits was concerned, if he gave the British distillers Id. a gallon—the utmost they themselves asked—this would be more than an ample pro. tection for any loes they might incur by . paying the duty at the worm's end. Taking lid. as an equivalent for the malt duty, and id. as an equivalent for what they would gain by being allowed to pay duty on the spirit coming out of the warehouse—this would be infinitely more advantageous to them than en alteration in the mode of levying the duty; for in that case there would clearly be no reason whatever for putting an additional duty on colonial runs. As in Eng land spirits were not warehoused at all, as a large quantity ef Scotch spirits, and about three-fourths of the Irish, were sent into this country without bring warehoused, it was quite clear that a greater benefit would be con rotectioferredn on the home distiller by giving him this p than by altering the mode of levying the duty. lie now came to the lout item, the excise restric tions. A most formidable list of those restrictions had been made out by the noble lord opposite (Lord G. Ben tinek ) in his resolutions ; but viewing them in the intelli gible, business-like way of pounds, shillings, and pence, they did not ran up to an amount which need al ran the distiller. Various documents stated the cost of maeufactuting liritish spirits at about 23. the R adon, b. fore the duty was paid ; of this, Is, tide was the cost of the raw material, and ad. the cost of the manufacture. Ile did not deny that the excise restric tions interfered with the manufacture to tome extent, but it was to an extent much less than was commonly believed; and, in some instances, that interference had not been with out utility for the protection of the distiller himself. Be that as it might, the suppeeitien that out of the cost of ma nufacture, 6(1. the gallon, more than one-third, was due to excise restriction., was a tupposition that no one acquainted with the expenses of production would readily receive. But that calculation wts not borne out by the information before the house. Gentlemen in stating their own case always took the me t fevourehle view of it ; and there were some rem:irkable instances of this in the case of the distillers claims. To CatiOnik the decreases rat 31,1 per gallon, when he I ad shown that they did not amount to gentlemen tnok of their owe ease. Two years ago a state ment was put into his nand, in which the distidersthemselves estimated the expensesof rectification at Gel.; but by theirstate 'tient given before the committee this year the estimate had dwindled down to 31. Two or three years before, their esti mates had been 10d., then Bd. Hence, he was warraeted in saying that statements made fur the purpose of making out a case were not made with all the accuracy tut wu di sir able. Ile held in Lis hand a statement of a claim made on the Board of Excise for loss by decreases on four casks of spirits imported into this country from Leith, on the 27th March last; aid the amount claimed was id. and 53.100ths of a farthing per mitten. The Chairman of Excise was a little astonished at this, and was led to suspect that the instance was rather a singular one. He accordingly took the quantities of decrease on certain other casks im ported by the same parties (Messrs. Frisk, Browning, and Co.) about the same time; and he found that upon 20 casks of Scotch spii its imported tram Leith on the 23rd of March, four days before the other, the actual loss amounted to 19.lO0the ef a farthing per gall n ; and upon 20 casks im ported four days later, the 31st March, the loss, calculated in the same way, was 43 100ths of a farthing—in both eases in finitely less than the average Is estimated by the Chairman of Excise. That estimate had been formed on 9,591 casks of Scotch and Irish spirits imported into London from the 6th April, 1817, to the sth April, 1818, and amounted to Ist. and 42-100ths per gallon-50.100ths less than the average formerly stated by the chairman of the excise. He did not deny that the loss might be as stated on the four casks im ported on the '27th March, as there were particular circum stances connected with that importation ; but it show' how little single statements could be relied on for formi ng' a general; average. Lord U. BENTINCK.—Hear, hear. Especially with the excise. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the estimate of the chairman of excise bad been more than borne out by the fact ; he had not stated the case so favour ably to his own view as he might have done. The proper, course was to take a sufficient number of facts whereon to found an induction, and then the conclusion would probably be right. (Hear, hear.) In this way the noble lord oppo site would have &end that the conclusion he had drawn from that single cargo was not borr.c out by the general average. No man could suppose that, of the whole cost of the manufacture of spirits -6d. a gallon—more than one third was due to excise restrictions. But Mr. Patrick Chamber, a distiller, of Wishaw, had sent in a statement, which appeared at page 8:1 of the report of the noble lord's committee ; he was a highly respectable man, to whose statement credence might be given. Mr. FAGAN—Hear, hear. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was glad to hear his hon. friend behind him bear testimony to the character of Mr. Chambers, whose statement was the more entitled to reliance in this case, because it had been put in for another pupae. Ile stated the quantity of barley con sumed, the quantity of proof spirits produced, the whole items of the expense of manufacturing spirits, and the result of his calculation was that the net charge, including the expense of making malt , amount ed to 31d. per gallon. the had no motive for exaggerating that statement either on one side or the other ;7therefore it might he taken as a fair state ment of the cost at which spirits might be manufactured in Scotland. Could any one believe that more than one half of that cost, namely twopence. was produced by the excise restrictions? Neverthelest, he proposed to allow 2d. a gallon for the whole claim in respect of these restrictions and, taking the cost of the manufact ire at fide a gallon—still more if taken at 31(1., which he believed would be nearer the truth—it was pertectly incredible that the cost of produc tion could he enhanced at the rate of 2d. a gallon by the ex cise restrictions. He saw no other grounds cn which the distillers could claim protection aeainst colonial spirits. In awarding 4el. per gallon as a differential duty to countervail the legislative disadvantages under which the distillers and producers of British spirits were placed, he conceived he had I given them a full equivalent. Looking at the relative prices of the two articles, the difference was not greater than would be compensated by the protection he proposed. In the draft report of the noble lord, at page 174, he took the average cost price of ordinary whisky at 2s. 3)d., and of ,rum at 22. 4)d., and the prices of the other varieties ran very near each other. With these prices there was no reason is suppose that the English dis tiller would be ruined by the importation of rum at a duty of 4d. The whole amount of colonial spirits which had been introduced into this country last year was only three millions of gallons, out of a total consumption of upwards of twenty-six millions and a half; and no doubt e of rum last year, -. , -- - --- there had been an increased consumption._ owing to the deficiency of the barley crop. But he did not what was due to the colonists. suppose that, in future years, there would be any such in- Lord G. BENTINCH assured the house that he bad crease in the consumption of rum as to produce any sensible never heard any complaint from Norfolk barley.grevren on effect on the large mass of British spirits consumed in this the subject of the spirit duties. The hon. gentleman sp. wintry. With regard to the question of revenue, he as- peared ao credulous about the matter of bush money that ke Burned the loss at about 62,0001. ; and he confessed he calcu- really did not wonder at the rest of his arguments. When laird upnn an increased consumption sufficient to produce the hon. member &dared that the chairman of excise was that amount of revenue. An additional consumption of the only person who gave reliable evidenc. , before the corn -150,000 gallons in England would do it, or of 300,000 mittee he probably was not aware that Mr. John Wood had gallons in Scotland, or of 400,000 in Ireland, map- himself declared that whst he had stated was mere matter posing the increase to take place entirely in one country. of opinion and that it ought to be taken by the committee It was not likely that the increase would take with considerable deduction en that account. Mr. Wood place wholly either in one country or another ; but he took upon himself to arraign the evidence and impeach the thought he might fairly assume an increase of about 200,000 statements of all the distllers of England and of Scot gallons on the total consumption. He hoped it would be land. Ile declared that people as high in station and cheese mere, for the sake of the colonists ; and a reduction in • dif- ter as himself—men whose veracity he could not pretend to ferential duty always operated in favour of the consumer. question—were to he dealt with on the principle of the rule He befeved the in eeeee t, of both would be emsulted by the of three as far as their evidence respecting decreases measure he had proposed ; and he thought he had shown to was concerned. (Hear, hear.) This wz.s the whig chair any person who would fairly consider the sufject, that in men's insolent way of treating gentlemen and men of unim meintaining a differential duty of 4d. per gallon between petehable integrity. Butt in reference to this very evidence British and colonial s irate adequate compensation was given of Mr. John Wood : bon h subject of decrease that indi to the British distiller, iu respect of the malt duty, the vidual wite obliged susequently to amend his own evidence, decreases, the excise restrictions, and the other disadvantages and to admit that he had himself erred in the truth to the under which be alleged he was placed by the existing laws. extent of 75 per cent. Who, then, was to be trusted—the With regard to the toes which would be produced in the co- trade, or this chairman of excise? (Protectionist cheers.) lonics or in this country, he did not profess to go into that at But the Chancellor of the Exchequer made another state all; his principle was, as far as legislative enactment was meat respecting the excise gauge, with a view to prove that concerned, tu allow the roducers in the colonies and in this the trade were wrong and the customs right. But why bad country to come into co m pel ition on equal terms. That, he not Mr. Wood made that statement to the committee, where believed, would be effected by the proposal he submitted to its truth or falsehood could have been Lirly tested No, the committee ; and he would now conclude by piecing in the statement was reserved for the House of Commons, the hands of the chairman a resolution, the effect of which where of cour:e it was impossible to test its accuracy. was to substitute for the present differential duty of 9d. a Where Mr. Wood, therefore, gave an opinion, he acknow duty of ail. per gallon. ledged himself that his evidence was worth very little ; The CHAIRMAN having read the resolution at length, whilst where be spoke es to matters cf fact it Mr. FAGAN said the propo , ition nommade differed ma- was clear that that evidence was worth still less tonally trona that which the right lion. oentlemen had him- The preamble of the Channel I.lands Act of 1845, framed self made on a tamer occasion. He did not think this titles- by the right hon, member for Cambridge, fully admitted the principle of the right of the British diltillet to peeel,,,, a , ous burden, he boa m^mbw~ the their country t ection, in ord er Lhutotibmeituh to elel e b o t: s hr i ni n t ter iihdint v ddet a r i l ,antr th ttyyt:i e r:v v e a tTi,h ri bi by l c a pa l nl iw n i th m s u h nhfi l, neenrtctnlsrt excise d. y. h s b c h i. e Ga u fov r d ,:o stated d l rc r e u i y n d f th at, r e n m l I i acceding ns st t r o l i the g repeale n d t e f r e but the Irish members hail been fully and distinclly • a t West Indians, the pretended boon would turn bths fi y av any' hing, better than a mockery. They were the . re t tte to do jbec assess es,. l e ter ddi tthntuet hooPen: O ' t ut oouyhnitevffic the mselv es e la assent ram, as i v h r e o n 4r a at n l osrio d o atibtn n t4l s il e li e d ta alfmr e duora o otrpet i m ypu d ot. 'tl ip uoneue : t d:t n i heia l s t: l ne a e ninti lt urho i t : b e , teu r b:ni b t :: T u f : be t t rtlial:t e bEr of the the e h the s eal ug e a n iAr w ad h e o of ir t e h r i e s coatunptrre*ey. nt(ChelPeer"isaßt:Liall the to the government proposal were on ac.ount of the earns ' , r Lions, his opinion was that those latter were if a sit pin rather too favourable to the British distilllers. (R au, ha ; lie denied the ext nt of hardship co tiplai:.ed of by timb a l as arising from the excise. In some cases th e irvi • might he an inconvenience but in others it was an advantage, and in no ease m ere ro than that of spirits. It gave a great additional prot ar a,„ t o m manufacturer against the frauds of his 'erne% (g ru , hear.) The heavy penalties had been much dwelt eas t e witnesses before the committee, but they were s e ia a „,.,: filched, bring, generally speaking, merely held u p 0, ( 3'; - . recent to protect the honest portion of the meeniface rm When the grievances of the excise on spirits were v a n of let them consider the case of soap. The excise was 114, as ' I hard, and Id. on soft soap, while the duty on coheir: se a ; imported into this country was precisely the same, sad yet he new. r had heard an irstenee of a g a 4 sa manufacturer complaining of the competition. In j ra . land, also, there was no soap duty, nor was thew aa restriction on the manufacture, neither was there guy 7 teevailing d ..ty on its importation into this counter And yet, what was the consequence ? Did Ireland overflew the country with none? (Loud lautthter.) The fact en, t h at England sent 6000,000 cwts. of a ap to Ireland eery 1, 0 . (Rear, hear.) And this, notwithstar.ding those treate a d ar excise restrictions of which so much bad been mid, 14 , therefore, excluded from consideration any allowance te iy distillers on the ground of excise restrictions. (tj aar, j aa) The next point to which the noble lord had alluded was d a question of decrease; and here he must express bis diweas from the noble lard's estimate of the value of the "ja m given by the chairman of the excise. The noble lad I attached no value to that gentleman's evidence, beam, ¢ . had been given with diffidenee. Lord O. BENTINCK.—What I said was, that I lud fra l the evidence of the chairman of the excise board, in whir ' he expressed himself diffidently as t the restriction, bat I most positively as to matters of fact, and that in enem a ( fact he wan wrong in the proportion of four to act. flint) I Mr. GOULBURN had understood the noble bed tom. press himself as attaching no importance to the claum m ., o pinion. For his part, he should attach the more Tonto a I man's evidence who expressed himself with chtbiene ma caution. (Rear, hear.) But to return to the deaease. ly differences of opinion which had ~ten exhibited on this m a i aro se from ono party relying on an isolated case, sad any I other taking a fair average spreading over a ressonable ma. her of years. What he (Mr. Goulbure.) contended emu takings fair average of years—the allowance made by t!, Chancellor of the Exchequer, namely—three (otitis I gallon, was a fair and reasonable allowance fer deans& lie therefore saw no reason for opposing the connate proposal on that ground. If there was one duty more he another with which the excise authorities ought to b, star fled, it was the excise paid on spirits in England: it me 1 them no trouble, being paid by night great houses; mint both the late and present chairman had told Itimtbetiade opinion the advantage of the British distiller was too Brie a over his colonial competitor. The noble lord objected tb* government proposal would give a boon of only 64,0111.1 e annum to the colonial producer. Be it so, and if theses tape to the colonial producer were small, so veldt be th injury to the British distiller. If the latter could is 1.50,0001. to keep his Scotch competitor out of the metheill could hardly be injured by • sum of 61,0001. conceded** colonial producer. (Hew-, hear.) Ile should ass fah detein the house, save by expressing his full concurrent: the justice of the proposal which givernment had mem Mr. FORBES refire tted that he could not give lineup?: to the proposal of her Majesty's ministers. Mr. FAGAN intim ited that as his object bad bent. tained by the discussion which had taken place, beret not call for a division. The CHAIRMAN—Then, will any hon. gentleman% that I leave the chair Mr. FAGAN—I will move that you Inn the CZ (Cries of " Divide.") The committee divided—Ayes Noes Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL declared his intention of r * every opposition to the main resolution.. R The te proposit ion than the colonial distiller. CHANCELLOR he I t i t h e E2s ,uu cH u EQ . L ore ll proiiii ms erould sod 11t P. HOWARD, th e e utu chainn srtr A m f r te . r m a lu fe N w sE w L or L ds m fr ove om d tbMart. Ir. IL J. O'CONNELL suggested to his Me. frind that at this period of the session he would not damn a • defeat the government by adjournment, but take these the house on the main question. (Hear, hear.) Mr. LABOUCIIERE hoped also that that 034110 rash be adopted. The whole subject had been fully `see r bet, re a select committee. He hoped that a mom vari used to be the exception, but which had lately bemusing the rule, would not be persevered in. It was silo ota plained that the government were not active enounkiap sing the measures thy brought forward, but if ennlmi met by that mode of opposition it was impossible kraal do so. (Hear, bear.) Mr. KEOGH thought the motion of the hon. eawkri Limerick not an unreasonable one; for Irish =emboli been induced to believe, on the occasion of a deputes the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that no such propMe as that before the house would have been brought form They had on the contrary been led to suppose that the tea meet of last year, which was one of gnat impediments distilling and agricultural interest, would not be:i tubed. (Hear, hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEHUSU rep! the reasons which had induced him to bring torus:ll present resolution, and denied that any such ho p e hid St held out to the deputation alluded to. Rethought:Ma further consideration of the question moan to be apes. After • few words in e xplanation from Mr. %too Mr. H. J. O'CONNELL, Mr, BARELY said, that in justice to the ram osier Irish members ought to suffer the que,tion of the cliffeica duties to be as speedily settled as p amble, tar the moms ty that had prevailed err long had been very injurious tone who dealt in rum. Mr. ',l). CALLAGHAN urged the hon. meshes Limerick to persevere in his motion for an adjoartamf I the question. Col. DUNNE said that the evil which the present es sure would inflict in 'viand was so great that, nex t standing he regretted the loss of time t'ic. would was must urge the hon. member for Limerick to pond ea motion to report progress. lie had another reason ta' lug the debate to be adjourned, which was becalm: etc! Irish question was brought on in the house MIMI absence of the representatives of Ireland. If Lord G. BEN TINCE admitted that there was one tx , in the hon. and gallant member's last o b serv ation, feat was not an Irish member on the West India committer.t.• withstanding the interests of the distillers of thst roc! were involved in the questions disc ussed by that • If the hon. member for Limerick persisted in his wax) (Lord G. Bentinck) thought that both the Irish and Sus: distillers had a claim to a postponement of the debate. After a few words from Mr. 13011LBCRN, BUTLER denied that the d e putation of Ist members bad waited on the Ch a ncellor of the f.so quer with any dishonourable motives, and urged de t , jou -nment of the debate on a question of much noes importance than some hon. members seemed to ape!! the ground that so many hon. members were absent . 7 discharge of paramount duties at the amine in Ireland The committee then divided on the a mendsneatth S7 chairman do report progress and ask leave to sit ee l For the amendment 4B A g ainst it .. 127-7 9 During our absence from the gallery we understsar , Col. DUNNE moved as a further amendment da chairman do now leave the chair, The committee *gain divided—For the aruendmestS A:4mq it ....... Mr, CALLAGHAN again urged delay, and MOT, the government would fix an early day for tesustie discussion. After a conversation, in which Lord G. Bement' Cardwell, Mr. M'Oregor, and Col. Douse joined, • Lord .1. RUSSELL appealed to the house, on theft of public convenience, and said it would be Quite imps for the business of the country to be carried ea it was to he deferred from time to time, certain members were absent. Could not do! be discussed, because Irish 11116iVNI were re duths ear, hear. It seas the duty the of those hon. bit were absent )to attend to their duties in the h use. (SM. , . would, however, move that the chairman do report fr_r i on the understanding that the debate s h ou ld be rtwl 12 o'clock this day. (Hear.) aux fa' ll° Atter a few words from Mr. DUNCAN, an • , the gallery was cleared fur a division, but eon , tostg The conversation was continued while the doors were I:l7.er;e7rds Mr. D. CALLAGHAN again moved that the MO should report Progress. The gall.ry was again cleared, and the committee ou the main question as we were informed. Fur the resolutions .................. 116 Against d to, and th e ................ . ........... 37—:9 The reso l u tions were then agree WO journed at a quarter to 3 o'clock. ELECTION COMMITTEE.-lEs/00 DUBLIN.—The objection as to grand j pl again raised, and the entire dayOCCLIet wita argumen ts. The poll suff.red no diminutira. THE OCEAN STEAMER BEEIIANN, Cap t. C arr iy e d at Southampton yesterday, trots 11frtilt s e port •Ite left on Saturday. Sbe has brouthl t O .,P 100 of whom are for New York. She leteWass He it • for place on the 20th. The Washington will for Southampton, on the 20th. THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, JULY 18, 1848.