The Express. — London, England, 1847-02-06 00:00:00

emolog ; and it was thereto° good pofiry to give every facility for emigration, before the population reached a point wields might be absolutely dangerous to the welfare of the empire. 1 he motion was then agreed to. PUNISHMENT OF TRANSPORTATION. Earl GREY, in answer to a question ftom the Marquis of SALISBURY, said that certain papers and reports connected with the system of transportation and the punishment of convicts, were nearly for presentation , and would be laid on the table of the house in three or four days. EDUCATIONAL GRANT S. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that it would have been to him a source of the greatest pleasure and satisfac tion, had he been enabled to state that government were prepared with so large and comprehensive a plan of educa tion as at once, and by rapid strides, to put the population of this country in the same condition as it was in some parts of Europe, where an uneducated child was a solitary excep. tion, and where it might be strictly said that education was universal with the great mass of the peogte. But he was bound, in the outset, to state, that upon the fullest deliberation, it had not appeared to the government practi cable to effect the extension of education on so large and compteheneive• a scale. It undoubtedly mitht have been attempted, but it would not have been effectel without great, serious. and overwhelming dangers. It could only have been attempted on a very limited scale, by being made strictly comprehensive,—the' is, so as to include in the same plan and in the same school+ children of all conditions and religious denominations. The longer he had observed the progress of this question the more convinced had ho become of the difficulty of attempting to teach children upon a male so enlarged and with views so compreheasive. Those diffi culties were certainly not ne a, neither were they unim portant. In proof that they were not new, he might with confidence appeal to the judgment and experience of his noble and learned friend on the bench opposite jord Brougham), who had exerted himself so honourably, so usefully, and so constantly on this subject. Bat with all the interest, know ledge, and authority which that noble lord could b ing to the consideration oft he question, he would be the first to state that he had failed in being able to bring it to a satisfies tory termination. He had fade], and others had failed ; and though it might be said, that that which individuals had attempted in vain a government might succeed in effe eting, that obeereation could not be made without re collecting, at the same time, that there was in this country, even in the very occasion of a government interfering with the ordinary habits and arrangements of the people, that which excited opposition, jealousy, an t difficulty, such as it was not in the power of a government, constituted as ours was, to remove. Whe never a plan so comprehensive had been mooted, it had been met with two ipow erful classes of objections. Ono was raised by who, from motives the most virtuous and pious, and the most to be respected, dreaded even a con tact existing between persons of one religious persua sion and another, but who carried this objection far beyond what he (Lord Lansdowne) should carry it, were he con fident of the soundness, tenth, and excellence of the religion he professed. But thera were many who entertained that objection so strongly, that they could not be brought to concur in any system of instruction which comprised under the same roof, and in the same schema of education, the children of different churches and sects. Another great class of objectors, not without ability and authority, were those who objected to any interference of the Go vernment at all on this question ; and who, carrying into education th it which they professed on other sabjeets, an attachment to what was called the voluntary principle and system, considered that any interference of government, upon a large Peale at least, would have the effect of damping and diaunishing the exer tions which were now making to some extent, and which they thought were likely to be made still more effectually to wards the promotion of general education. But such was far from being the universal opinion ; for, though no person who was deserving of the name of a Christian—no person of authority in this country, could ever have contemplated the establishment of a system of popular education upon the basis of not admitting religion into the system at all, could ever have supposed that it would be safe or expedient to invite the mass of Vie people to travel the perilous road of education without such eminence .—there were many pious, religious, and learned persons, who thought it would be practicable, under the same roof, and in the same school, to provide for the administration of different systems of reli gion, while the secular instruction was made common to all, and extended to the various descriptions and various classes. Many, who viewed government interference in ge neral with jealousy and distrust, were willing to admit this, and recognised it as one of the first and most paramount duties of government, to administer to the young of all re ligions the blestingeof instruction. But these again were only clams; and he felt deeply convinced that it would be impos sible, at this moment, to introduce any system of general edu cation under the authority of the law, and aiming to be uni versal, which would not in its progrees be attended with difficulties, opposition, apprehensions, jealousies, and doubts, such as must interfere with its effectual operation, and which, upon a question that of all others required the har monious co-operation of all descriptions and classes of society, would invite perpetual polemics and discussion, and, by introducing irritation and counteraction, to a great degree impair the accomplishment of the o'sject, and prevent its arriving at that peaceable conclusion which, on the subject of education especially, it was most important and essential ts aim at. Therefore, the government had come to a con clusion that it was not expedient to introduce the subject generally; but, without such an attempt being made, they thought it practicable, without any great demand on the resources of the country, to give an impetus to the establishment and extension of education in this country be yond what it had hitherto received. This might be done by going a little beyond that strict application of the means voted by the public, which had hitherto been confined to the mere erection of schools. It was proposed to add to the grant certain other conditions, which would, to a great ex tent, stimulate the efforts, both of the individuals concerned in the establishment of schools, and also of the schoolmasters and children. Their lordships would be glad to learn what had been the operation of the system hitherto, as to the number of schools, and of children educated therein. The parliamentary grants for the promotion of education, from 1833 to 1846 inclusive, had been gradually, steadily, and, to a limited extent, usefully, increased. The grants had amounted altogether to 490,0001. The school houses erected by the aid of these grants, including those in progress for which grants had been made, would provide in struction for 550,000 scholars ; and there were in addition about 3.500 scholars provided fur. The schools which had invited inspection, not being assisted, contained no less than 150,000 scholars. So many schools which were not assisted by government having invited inspection as a favour, showed the confidence entertained in the system, and, above all, the extreme importance of inspection, as a means of improving and perfecting the schools. It was a circumstance of infinite importance, and one peculiarly gratifying, that, besides the schools which hadrequired aid from the privy council, and for the reception of which aid an indispensable condition was that they should submit to inspection at all times when an inspector was eent for the purpose, there had been this large proportion of schools, not requiring aid, already founded and in operation without it, which had, neverthe less, petitioned the council to *end inspectors to them, that they might have the benefit of their advice and assistance. Adding the 150,000 scholars in these schools to the 5.50,00) in the government schools, it amounted to about 700,000 who were nominally provided for. There was not that number actually in the schools; but, at least, about half a million were provided for in the existing schools. Be sides these schools of a general character, a great num ber of normal schools, had received eminence, in cluding those of the National Society, the Battersea Training School, the Chester Diocesan School, the York and Ripon School, the Durham Diocesan School, the British and Foreign Normal School, and the normal schools of the church of Scotland, all of which had received assistance. He now came to the recommendations which had been made by the Committee of the Privy Council, and without attaching greater importance to them than they deserved, he asked their lordships approbation of them, as steps in the right direction, and operating beneficially, as far as they operated at all. In the first place, it was proposed to carry further the system of inspection, and to provide for the more fre quent inspection of schools. The establishment of inspectors ought to be sufficient to allow of each school being in apected at least once a year. (Hear, hear.) With the addition of three or four inspectors about to be appointed, this object would now be attained ; and a further extension would be for after con sideration. The next subject was one to which he attached the greatest possible importance. The reports of the inspec tors uniformly expressed the opinion that there was a defi ciency, not only of schoolmasters, but of assistants to school masters. There was a great want of the support to be derived from persons qualified to assist the masters in the details of their important object ; and the monitorial system bad been found inadequate for that purpose. It was therefore pro posed that, in all school, reported to be good schools, there should bee power granted to the master of each such school to take apprentices, chosen by lot from the scholars, for the purpose of enabling the boys so selected to be trained ultimately to become schoolmasters. The master who was reported wholly qualified to receive these apprentices was to have a soccial allowance for each apprennce,the apprentices being recommended by the guar dians, patrons, or committees directing the school. This would operate not only as a means of teaching the appren tice his future craft, or of ascertaining his qualifications for the office, but also as a reward to the schoolmaster himself for his acknowledged skill and competency in being able to instruct these apprentices. Every master, in proportion as he was recommended as competent by the committee or superintending body of the school, and every boy ream mewled as qualified for his situation, would derive a certain amount of pecuniary emolument, by which they would benefit. Prom the apprentices so trained those who had conducted themselves best would be selected for exhibitions in the normal schools; this being the second sap is their progress towards the situatioa of schoolmaster; whoa the 7 attired at the denomination of " Queen's scholer," r other Assignation that might be used, they weal M adit a l n ed to adminion to the soma schoobi, where thee catty be erred to rear their ebartion, and to acquire that addi demi pe of sf beewiudge acid practical emporiums which wadi gnat then for OM& trk. As many Wel* be thee trained who might not ultimately turn out to be fitted Ow the of schoolmaster, however red = 11. 2 duet, es arrangement was proposed, in which the aobhe bed sit the bra of the Treasury awl the right hon. the Chas es... Use etre beheqiew bed eatressed their entire concur yew-4hr them pears ahead be entitled, as a reward for their . I 'o eirisel, le esiment in the revenue depan d Se pebble .se. (Hear, hear.) Thus a dells quesselleMilled wee given to theft young nee ; a number drift west' be qualified for the site if 111111001- MAWR. Oaths Oben weeM benefit bra 4111111911 of :Mifteafthila lie:o7 bed ben roprod. Osepled with this maid be isaiediell eserbiaises, whir the would be edered be revere ; sad teas taking pine the NM* waft erne en emies and Ann tion of all the scholars. Another thing, which materially affected the general course of education, was the state and condition of the schoolmaster hipmelf. There was no class of persons who were better entitkd to the attention and favour of parliament than the peat mass of the schoolmasters of Beglan4l. There was no clam of men who were less likely to reap, in • wordly sense, the reward of their labours and exertion. (Hear, he tr.) Many of them were most mer itorious individuals ; they were mainly instru mental in advancing the fortunes and the future interests of the children committed to their charge, whom they after wards saw advancing in prosperity, and some of them ap roaching to wealth, while they themselves were chained Sown to their laborious duties, hopeless,and without requital —trusting, no doubt, to their own connancy, their own exer tions, and the faithful discharge of their duties ; but. at the same time, in many instances, di.coursged by long and hope less labour in their old age, and condeenued to see the cur rent of their feelings and aspirations chilled by want and checked by penury. No clam of persons were more entitled to consideration. They were pl iced in immediate contact and performed some duties almost in common with the clergy, while, at the same time, they had an inadequate amount of reward to stimulate them; and any extension of the system of education in this country would be imperfect which did not, in some degree, he hoped in a considerable degree, ameliorate their condition, excite their hopes, and reward their exertions. (Hear, hear.) It was therefore proposed that a provision , —a s mall provision undoubtedly, but one which would be thought a great oltject—should be made in their old age for well-conducted schoolmasters and school mistresses, who could show that they had, for a period of IS years, unexceptionably conducted a school of a certain size. (Hear, hear.) Out of that number • selec tion would be made, according to the reports furnished, and a certain portion of the public funds would be allotted to the specific purpose of supporting them in their old age. Besides these retiring pensions, as they might . be called, it was intended that a cvetain number of gratuities should be gi yen, on the recommendation of the inspectors and the committees of the schools, to ischoolmosters in the exercise of their vocation, which would prove to them a useful stimu lus and encouragement. Another addition which it was proposed to make had reference to the schools themselves. A great many wishes had been expressed for the institution of what might be culled schools of industry, where indus trial operations might be taught in connexion with the schools aided by the parliamentary grant.— In this it was proposed to follow up the system so beghn, only advancing funds in proportion to the advance made by the schools, but it was intended to administer assistance in a double or greater ratio to those schools in which a system of industrisl occupation had immediate connexion with the coarse of education. In other words it was contemplated in agricultural districts, to hire fields to be connected with the schools, in which operations in agriculture could be taught, and in the same way to the schools in towns, work shops would be added for the purpose of affording instruction to the children attending the schools in the ordinary crafts and operations of those trades by which eventually they might have to earn their livelihoods. (Hear, hear.) Thus he thought • most beneficial stimulus would be given to induce parents to send their children to schools where they would not only be trained in what may be called literary vocations, but in which also some preparation would be made for the exercise of those vocations by which these children might afterwards become valuable acquisitions to ' their families as well as a benefit to their country; and he believed, from experience, that nothing could tend more to reconcile those parents who were at present insensible to the utility of education to their children than the inculcation of the belief that they would also be instructed in trades and occupations, the acquirement of which would be of great service at home. It would also get rid of and remove the stion which existed among parents to withdraw their children too early from the schools, in order to make their services productive to their families. On this subject he had testimony, to which he hoped to be allowed to refer, and which afforded a most salutary example to the country and to those interested in the details by which that object has been accomplished. The tes- ' timony was that afforded by the narrative and details' of a school of the description to which he alluded, contained in the able pamphlet published on the subject by the Rev. Mr. Dawes, a distinguished clergyman, who narrated the conquest he had obtained over the feelings and prejudices of his neighbours, in a pariah remarkable for vice, crime, and ignorance, ten years ago, but which was now in so improved • condition as to morals, as not only to be almost free from mime, but in which, by the course pursued by Mr. Dawes, the middle classes of the parish had not only dropped every prejudice as to permitting their children to mix in the school with the children of the lower classes, but even the farmers had so come into the system as to send their children to board in the parish, for the purpose of partaking of the bene fits of that education which the school of Mr Dawes afforded. --- A NOBLE Loan Inquired the name of the parish in which Mr. Dawes had 60 established his schools ? . The Marquis of LANSDOWNE replied that it was in the parish of King's Sombourn, in the county of Hauls, situate in a purely agricultural district. (Hear, hear.) The pam phlet showed that such had been the success of the system that at the close of tire fourth year from the establishment of the school 158 poor children therein educated had purchased from their little savings 151. worth of the books used in the school to take home, there to be used not only as a resource of amusement to the children themselves, but also to con tribute to make their parents sensible of the utility and im portance of the schools. (Hear.) These results had been accomplished by Mr. Dawes mainly by connecting in some degree the education of the children with instruction in the occupations of did, parents. On these grounds he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) thorght that these industrial schools must be attended with very great advantages. He (the Marquis of Lansdowne) had now warty concluded ' the statement which he had felt it to be his duty to by before their lordships on this important subject. There were schools which, under special votes of the other house of parliament had been placed on a better footing. There were also the schools in the workhouses of the country, which had been improved, and which would be placed, by the authority of the com mittee of the Privy Council, under proper inspection, with a view to the fit distribution of the large provisions made for these purposes at the end of the last session of parliament. These would be new-modelled, and in addition it was intended to provide cheap books of an elementary character for the instruction of the children. He believed he had now stated all that was necessary to be laid before their lordships. Again, however, he must observe that he con sidered these measures as falling very short of that which he desired to see accomplished—namely, a system which should include in the course of one general instruction the mass of the community in which at present so many human beings were compelled to toil without being afforded a chance of improvement in that knowledge which it was hoped would be secured to their children. Of this it fell short ; but he believed from the experience he had of the increasing seal of the clergy of all denominations—of the applications for as sistance made to the department over which he had the honour to preside, that, by improving the character and po sition of the schoolmasters ' and by the proper preparation of those persona who claimed to succeed them in their useful and most respectable avocations, that the cause of education will be advanced, the children of all classes better educated, and thereby the meat beneficial effects secured to the nation at large. (Hear, hear.) The noble marquis, who was most indistuictly heard towards the termination of his speech, concluded by laying the papers on the table. Lord BROUGHAM said, that nothing could be more fair or candid than the statement of him noble friend who had just sat down, as to the designs and intentions of the govern ment es to th ei grants which from time to ties* had been made by parliament for educational purposes. His noble friend bad, however, frankly admitted that those were not the plans of the government ; he had disdained such an as sumption, and had freely confessed that the government had no plan of education to propose, and had also given satis factory masons why no plan was brought forward. He (Lord Brougham) lamented quite as much as his noble friend the grievous calamity, for he could call it nothing else, that they found themselves, in 1847, placed in the same circumstances, on this question, that they were, when, forty-six years ago, the attention of the country was directed to the education of the people. They were just as far as ever from the prospect of haring a national, public, general, and comprehensive system of education. (Hear, hear.) This was not the fault of this, of the late, or of the preceding government, but it arose front the unhappy pecu liarity in the state of society in this country. He meant to impute blame to no party, but only to express his concur rence in the lamentations of his noble friend that such estate of things should still continue to exiat—a state of things which, while it lasted, must baffle all attempts to secure to the country the inestimable blessing of universal education. Let it not be supposed that he (Lord Brougham) was the ad vocate of a comma/my system of education. Such a system might answer in Prussia, but would be wholly inoperative in this country. The compulsory system might work well in Prussia, but in England it would make educa tion positively hated, detested, and odious. Still he was opposed to the views of those who said, " do not let govern ment interfere; do not have a government system of educa tion." To the question of education the principles of free Made did not apply; and he contended that though 'e who subscribed to the establishment of cheap schools t h ereby na encouraged their neighbours and dependents to send their children to them, yet it had been found that if the govern ment interposed, its assistance had been of mischievous effect. It, therefore, was of the utmost importance that the committee of privy council for education should not in terfere with the bounty of individuals except only as a help and then only in such a way as should stimulate private benevolence. (Hear, hear.) There had been • plan originally recommended in July or August, 1833, founded upon resolutions passed in 1818 by • select commit tee of the House of Commons, over which he had the honour to=da. Those resolutions embodied the principles of in the outfit of schools, and of interposing the go iomeemt half as • stimulus to private and local exertion. Blase UM *see prlnshibis had been adopted, and 500,0001. Midden beim pmgmely and • oily applied by succeeding IKe Lad ) odd not help lament- E armj a• slatn' t a UMW he roots a little deeper— net gam been eMsblishad, sad that education had not bean Arms& am a sbentot7 brie, es well as being popular sinsaget the sommunity. Than the reverend bench of pre lates, no body of sass felt maw the fact that education 'Bladed the belt aid to reilglem and the surest guide to smitality. Still no farther had been made in the great cause. He grieved te say that all the criminal judges, all lawgivers, and indeed in,wy secretary of state for the home departmeat ; Judean of the peace, and every =lightened and thinking man, bad scam to the melancholy conclusion that Um Mee K polemist, as the means of deterring evil-dens, bad proved lamentably deficient. His argument was that prevention was better than cure, and that children ought to be trained up in such a manner as that they never would dream of the commission of crimes. None of their lordships belonged to the class from which offenders sprang. Hardly any member of the other house belonged to that class —(laughter)---he should say none. It was not people THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 6, 1847, of their rank, or that of their lordships; from which, with few exceptions, erirniaals rose. In the metropolis between 150,000 and 290,000 criminals arose out of a popu-' lotion of 14 million comprised within the jurisdiction of the Central Criminal Court. Now, if means could be found for training infanta of between three and six yeera of age in those habits which are univcra 411 y inculcated in the infant schools, it would eradicate, in 99 eases out of 100, the seeds of crime, and would make it impossible that they ebould afterwards be guilty of it, any more than any of their lordships. On the subject of capital punishment he differed from many estimable indi viduals, and was not prepared to my that in all cases they ' ought to be abolished, though he agreed with Lord Nugent that they were calculated to increase the ferocious disposi tion which led to heinous crime. Such were his reasons for wishing fora general national education, beginning with infant schools, and ending with training schools, such as had been mentioned. And why were not they established? Why, because there existed two classes of communions, for both of which he entertained the most profound respect—he alluded to that composed of members of the church—the other of members of dissenting congregations Both were the friends of education, but there we. another thing which they both preferred, and hence the controversy. That thing was the claim to victory ; sad in seeking the victory they preferred the chase to the game. In other words, the members of the church would not have any system of education which was not comprehensive and under clerical interference—the din Rental on the other hand would not have any system which was subject to clerical interference. Hence education went to the wall—hence all the evil. There could be no supervision which could embrace every sect of dissenters, although it might be applied to the church. If a bill was passed which gave the church a proper superintendence, and permitted the dissenters to take it up or not as they pleased, it was his (Lord Brougham's) belief, that there would soon be a national and universal system of education. It seemed, however, that was not to be, although he wax glad to find there was a step in the right direction. He quite approved of what had been stated with regard is inspectors; but they should be instructed not to let it be known beforehand what schools they were about to inspect. He should wish the inspec tors to be " sporadic," and be constantly moving about, Training schools should be planted in different districts, as in York, Lancaster, Exeter, and Maidstone, and ' let teachers be sent to them, and then every year there would be sent forth a body of 500 or 600 good teachers. At present the incapacity of teachers in the schools would hardly be believed by those who had not actual experience of the fact. lie would suggest that every endeavour should be made to get quarter pence from the parents of the chil dren, which would preserve their independence while it saved money ; while, if they paid a little for education, they would value it the more, besides the probability of their making their children regular in their attendarice. He feared that training a certain number of apprentices and giving them a sort of premium by appointing them to places in the . /guise and the like, would not work so well, but he quite approved of giving retiring pensions to the teachers, although he did not think that fifteen yi.ers should be the period, after which they should be entitled to them. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE.—They could not be ab solutely entitled at that time, but they must have served so to ng. Lord BROX:GRAIL—Then that was the minimum; it was not to be leas; but still there ought to be a large margin. It was important that a better kind of education should be adopted. The French said that reading, writing, and ciphering, was not enough, bat they added linear drawing. This was found to be of the greatest use in alter life, and had a greater effect in leading to habits of ob servation and a distinct knowledge of different objects than any other species of manipulation, while it was almost always a remedy against idle and listless habits, be sides affording an encouragement to parents to send their children to school. He regretted that there were compara tively so few infant-schools, in which he had always taken grail interest, end he hoped they would not be kept down by the want of part of the funds which were to be voted. The noble lord concluded by thanking the government for what they proposed, although he regretted that the larger plan to which he had alluded had not been adopted. The BISHOP of LONDON (who spoke in so low a tone as to be very inaudible) was understood to say that he could not allow the subject to pass without one or two observa tions. He could not but express the satisfaction with which he had heard the clear and can lid statement made by the noble marquis of the views of the government on this ques tion. As far as he could follow that statement, it appeared to him that the determination of the government was a wise one. The main feature of the plan seemed to be not none cenarily to interfere with the present system, which he be ' tiered to be rooted in the affections of the people, but to take advantage of it as it existed to expand and improve it. The two most important features of the plan were a system of in spection and extending . a judicious eystem of training schools. No system of inspec tion would answer its intended end, unless it embraced a vigilant course of superintendence --not a jealous superintendence or one arising from private curiosity, but judiciously directed, and not permitted to flow away unprofitably. Since the commencement of the plan of inspection, he,had been accustomed to impress on the clergy the advantage of calling in the aasiatance of the inspectors, by way both of encouragement and direction, and since then the prejudice of the supporters of the church schools on the subject had been giving way, if it had not entirely gone. As tar as his experience went the government inspectors had done their duty, not only with courage and faithfulness but with delicate consideration and unobjection able temper. (Rear, hear.) The clergy and managers of the local schools bore their testimony to this, and, so long as they continued so to act, they would find the clergy anxious to assist them in keeping the masters and committees in the right direction, and their counsel and opinions would have a weight and authority, which could not he obtained from any other source. Then with regard to normal schools, it had been found that the difficulty to be contended with in promoting national education was to procure efficient men to work the schools. Whatever might be the system, whatever the ma chinery might be, still the school depended on the master, and, therefore, even a good system was of no benefit with inefficient masters. The government could not act more wisely than in promoting the efficiency of normal schools. He would not dismiss this subject without recommending to the noble and learned lord (Brougham) the expediency of his paying a visit to some of the best normal schools, where he would find several of the matters which he had suggested in full operation. For instance, linear drawing was prac- tised in the normal and other schools, and brought to a de gree of excellence with which he would be both surprised and pleased. The noble and learned lord had suggested the establishment of training schools in different parts of the kingdom ; but they already existed in almost all the places he had named. There were diocesan training schools at Chester, at York, at Durham, at Salisbury, and at Exeter. With regard to another suggestion of the noble and learned lord as to the payment of quarter-pence by the went, of the children, he could state that there was hardly a national ached in the neighbourhood of London in which such payments were not made weekly—a much more convenient plan, and most of the expenses were defrayed by this means. The noble and learned lord was hardly aware of the extent to which education had been carried in the last few years, and he would be delighted, if he were to visit the schools, to find the extent to which the teaching was carried there. The pupils who quitted St. Mark's College, at Chelsea, passed examinations which would reflect credit even on those admirable and excellent establishments which were the boast of the city in which the noble and learned lord was so much interested, and which was designated as the Modern Athens. In addition to drawing and languages, to a certain extent they were taught the doctrines of the church, not to be so held as to amount to bigotry, but to enable them to form a just opinion of their value, as derived from Scripture • and they were instructed that it was their duty more than' that of any other clam, except the promoters of religion, to inculcate them upon the youth committed to their care. There was one part of the statement of the noble marquis on which, until he was better informed, he would not mar any opinion ; he alluded to the subject of workhouse :enacts. In dealing with that question it should not be for gotten that they were connected with• the national schools , and that they operated on each other. It had fallen to his let to visit one or two workhouse schools, and he could state that better schools did not exist. He had thought it but right individually to express his thanks to the government for the plan they had proposed. The Bishop of ST. ASAPH begged to express his ap. probation of the plan proposed by the government. The Earl of WINCHILSEA, while he thanked the go vernment for the plan they had proposed, could not help thinking that a general spurn of education would meet with support, and that even the great body of dissenters would not object to it. The Archbishop of CANTERBURY said it wu un angs:for him to add anything to what had been so ai mi lby the right rev. prelate who had spoken, and he should therefor* only express his thanks to the noble mar quis for the attention he had paid to the subject, and the evident care with which the materials of the plan bad been prepared. Their lordship then adjourned at a few minutes past 8. HOUSE OF COMMONS—FRIDAY, F. b. The Sosexis took the choir shortly before four o'clock. PRIVATE Buspaes.. lamemeisis; Ira Wi 011". 7;aT . Thedwd Ra . lMl . ray; La gni Sp& lyabs Inaide ?Away aad Aug Ferry; Meet Imam awl M awl Iced,* briestas, sad Soma orair Railings Aaaelposike; DMll4&ft Rec tory &video ; Olewpow, Airdrie ; awl lisakkaida Jamaica Railway (Coyish*, Oarnyie, Cashed Jumada; sad Caplaw-Idll Brandies, ad Mastraiwairert busbies); Obarow, AuNirle, an Rook hada J. Railway Marlin Breach) ; Oleagow, Bus lay, itilaismak, sad Ayr Railway, ad Araks and el Weir BillerazZo .;. Dandifsi, wad Ca lir r ia & Rawl, sod owl Ayr Rad atsjaaatior, se rja.A reneeralleaprew i r a yse ima i tl7,: amilkelbareslura Sanwa, (warm at lir Bret at Wee nier's bleirat latiollesphrber ANdiabus gawk Liimelawl Lameweas lemalllallwag; Um sod 11yRal)way i=w - R l iiallel • b ra R.li=„( aaa ez- Llasela ih tt er iely 1/1181111. tale (1a ad wed Harsiales rod bit imam Breairs); Nabob; its ftivw pula TWOS to tbe Saws, war vill • kiosk le WO. w eethaValunt Raw Olvadmi . and ; ara n all r aw. LOWSktiala.:rl =4 I Was Aaelilaid, awl W Rand" sod Wear sad Dement Railways, art Ardpirrice PUBLIC BUSLNEBII. _ _ nennowe r ,ft 14:16;r7 - fiat - eh oily st ImAaa, Wear et as of sopftel im.mia—W. O. Damn km a ram abs, la wow Os par rasseal while. J. Mimi MN the d et Loa*" kr Os of pt dols. mod kin edi ingsmaom er Limit ir Vis sholleak A at inbaftre imerp—mr. maws Mr es beviiint Med 11 pun% etretral et =Now riot 1, 11.1 1= maim. raked ben animal by piar.bat eurals. I Ekes% ma kr Mist; frolaiiiMadl. lab awl smell Ow I places In favonr of the ten hooks' PC111A1•111 hum Omni. wood ageing the poor removal net—Mr. V. Bursar from Northamp ton for an alteration in the lunatic aiDituns act from the Oranstone Duke spina the poor removal sil.—fle. ErwaLL from Moekbridge the kw of settlemint act. —Captain PscriELL from shipowners l ajn' ArLdel for abolition 01 light dues ; from Brighton in favour of the claims of tba Rajah of &tiara ; from a lady, the repro ketatim of a lieutenant In the navy, who had diod in a Meath asylum, eldraing ids half y, which had been withheld for p g kea ram; Irma WskehoY, far the repeal of the duty on tea.—Lord KAN,EIO4, from Mr. Stidolph, profc.4or of eduraPon for the blind, !Willi; that three were between twenty and thirty thousand blind pet cnts in the kingdom, and that the means of education existed only for two thousand, and praying the govern ment either to take them coder their protection, or grant a sum of money towards their maintenance and education; from the distillers of the south.cast district o; Scotland, against the reduction of the duty on rum. —Mr. Airkwonni, from Bolton, in favour of the Ten Hours' Hill.—Mr. S. CRAWNIID, from the guardians of the Drogheda Union for elteratknot law of ejectment, and remuneration to tenants for outlay.—Mr. Wool:Bono , from Norfolk, against the Poor Re mand Act.—Mr. Hoar, f, tiro Forfar ' against the reduction of the duty on rum.—Mr. R. PAL 4104 from guardians of Abingdon Union ag-ainet the Law of Settler int Act. REPORT.—Destltutc Persom Ireland) Adenoma Bill, NEW MEMBEItS. . . Lord Robert °reeve or who was introduced by Sir W. Clay and Lord Marcus Hill, took the oaths and his seat for Middlesex, in the room of the late G. Byng, Esq.. deemed. , Earl Grosvenor, who was introduced by Mr. P. Egerton and the hon. E. Lame les, took the oaths and his seat for Chester, in the room of Lord Robert Grosvenor, who had accepted the ehiltern hundreds. DETENTION OF CORN AT ANCONA. Dr. BOWRING begged to call the attention of Lord Palmerston to the detention of corn and moire in the port of Ancona, bought for English account, and intended to be shipped for this country, and to inquire what measures had been taken in consequence ? Lord PALMERSTON had had several representations as to the matter, and to-day had received a deputation from the City of London on the subject. Inconsequence of the former representations be had issued instructions on the ?2nd January to the British minister at Florence to remonstrate with the Roman government. He believed the interdict arose from the local authorities at Ancona, and not from tbe Pope, and that it applied not to corn (mining from other parts of the world and deposited there, but merely to corn the produce of the Roman states purchased on English account. The hon. member and the house night be assured that he should en deavour to persuade the l.oman government to exempt from that order all corn intended for this country. HIGHFLYER'S BOAT.—RED SEA. Dr. BOWRING believed the noble lord was acquainted with the fact that a boat's crew belonging to the Big httyer had been abandoned on an Wand on the crust of Abjssinia, and the boat contained a crew of four persons, and amongst them a young man in the service of the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company. It was suspected that the boat was lost, hut there was al.o a supposition that the crew had been taken by a savage tribe, and conducted into the interior of Africa. lie wished to know whether the noble lord had received any information on the subject ? Lord PALMERSTON said the matter had been brought to his notice by the father of one of the officers, and he had muted inquiry to be made by the British Consul-General in Egypt. He had, however, since received a report from the India-house, containing a very circumstantial detail of an inquiry made by their rolitleal agent at Aden, who had sent an expedition to inquire into the matter on the spot, and, after examining the island where the parties were landed, and several other adjacent islands, they were satis fied that the boat's crew had not been taken prisoners r; but had reason to fear that in starting front the island they had been driven out to sea, and the boat had founeered. MEDALS TO THI: PENINSULAR ARMY. Sir A. L. HAY wished to know what steps had been taken to carry into effect her Majesty's gracious intention of granting medals to the officers of the Peninsular army Mr. F. MAULE said, the details had been found some what difficult, but be could assure his hon. friend, and the bouts, that no unnecessary time should be lost. FOREIGN DFITY ON HERRINGS. Sir A. L. HAY wished to know whether there had been sny correspondence between the British government and the governments of Belgium, Russia, and other countries, on the subject of the duty imposed on herrings exported from Great Britain and if so, the result ? Lord PALMERSTON said that several recommendations had been made to him on the subject from Scotland, and instructions had been given to our ministers abroad to en deavour to obtain some modification of the tariff of certain foreign governments, with regard to herrings exported from this country ; but, of course, each country claimed a right to regulate its own tariff according to its own interests, real or supposed. DETENTION OF THE BLACK CAT SCHOONER. Mr. M UNTZ would be glad to know the act of parliament under the authority of which the English schooner, Black Cat, had been detained in the river, and all explanation from the Customs' refused, for the last fourteen days. Lord PALMERSTON a.tid the Black Cat—(laughter)— was detained by the Customs in consequence of an applica tion made by the Portuguese minister, who represented that she was laden with military stores intended for purposes of hostility on the coast of Portugal in contravention of the Foreign Enlistment Act. The Treasury and the Board of Customs had taken such steps as their legal advisers thought proper, and the vessel had been detained until her owners could prove that she was not intended for such a service. RELIEF OF THE DESTITUTE IN IRELAND. In answer to • question firolll Mr. O'CONNELL, Mr. LABOUCHERE raid that although i)ublin wait ex cluded from the Labour Rate Act, it would not be excluded from the act to provide relief for the cl ,, stitute. MERCHANT SEAMEN'S FUND. Mr. AGLIONBY inquired whether txrivretnie was to be proposed by the government to remedy the evils attending the regulation and distribution of the Merchant Seamen's Fund? Mr. WARD said the government were not prepared on the present state of the information on the subject to bring in a bill; but intended to issue a commission to make further inquiry. (Hear, bear.) FLOGGING IN THE NAVY. In reply to 1111 inquiry from Mr. W. WILLIAMR, Mr. WARD said the admiralty were most anxious to cheek abuses of power in the use of punishment on board ship, and hoped when the bon, member for Montroec (Mr. Hume) brought forward his motion on the subject, to be able to state something satisfactory. EUROPEAN REFINED SUGAR. _ In answer to a question from Mr. Ricaano, which was not distinctly heard, Mr. T. M. GIBSON said that the law to which the ques tion of the hon. member referred, stated that manufactured goods were to be deemed the produce of the country of which they were the manufitctures ; and if sugar refined in Europe be considered a manufactured article, no doubt it would be admissible into this country as uropean produce; but, of course, that question must be decided by the customs when the sugar might be imported. Mr. RICARDO wished to knot► whether the question bad been decided by the government ? Mr. GIBSON—In reference to any decision which the government may have come to as to a claim on the part of the Dutch government, i will take the liberty of answering that question on a future day. (Laughter.) Mr. RICARDO said he should ask the question on Monday. PURSERS IN THE NAVY. Captain PEC HELL wished to know what steps bad been taken with regard to the petitirn of the pursers and pay masters of the Navy, complaining that the recommendation of the commissioners . , respecting the increase of their half pay, in the expectation of which they surrendered 43 per cent. of their emoluments, had not been carried into effect. Mr. WARD said it was the intention of the Admiralty Board that the receommendation of the committee of 1841 should be carried out. SUGAR IN BREWERIES. . . . Sir H. W. BARRON wished to ask the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether there would be any objection to the use of sugar in breweries for colouring beer, instead of patent rash. He understood it would effect a con siderable saying of foxl. The CHANOELLLOR of the EXCHEQUER said there was • clause in the bill relating to the subject. NAVAL CAPTAINS LIST. Sir C. NAPIER wished to know, from :the Secretary of the Admiralty, whether, 100 captains having been taken off the list under the order of last year, and 72 fresh ones put upon it since then, it was the intention of the government to promote any more captains till the hot was reduced to 000? Mr. WARD said he would answer the question on Monday. M 1 LLBANK PENITENTIARY. . . On the motion that the house, on its rising, should ad journ till Monday, Mr. T. DUNCOMBE wished to know whether the right hon. gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home De partment was prepared to lay on the table the report re specting the Millbank Penitentiary ? 81r O. GREY said he had not received any document on the subject since the last conversation in the house on the subject. Mr. ESCOTT said the right hon. gentleman knew he could have the report at any time. But the right hon. gen tleman wishing to have the substance of the report in the form of a letter, he (Mr. Exton) consulted two gentlemen at the bar—one of them being Mr. Serjeant Manning—on the subject, and they were of opinion that he should make a report. The latter said that if he• took any other course he would be acting in disobedience of the Queen's coin rsrnds Mr. DUNCOMBE—The right hon. gentleman being de tamable& to receive only a letter, and the hon. member for Wbeheatar that he would only write a report, the cense gnaws was that the public were left in the dark. lie would move as an assimdment that the hon. gentleman be called on to lay the report on the table. Sir O. GREY was ashamed that this subject should occupy so much of the attention of the house. (Hear, hear.) He was informed that he could not consistently with prac tice receive a report from the hon. gentleman ; but if the hon, gentleman put him in poissision of the facts in a latter he would lay it before the house verbatim of literatim. As he mid before, be had no new document on the subject. [Mr. Bacon hem walked up and handed the right hon. gestionsgA pipe grail aka of " Divide.") Mr. HUMI hoped the boom would not be called on to dleido. (Rear, hear.) What AM it signify whether the in human was contained la a Mitre or sprat ? (Hear, hear.) Sir G. GRIT said a eisommat bid been put into his hands that semoit L sik misal mils, ins weed of which he had not dm to rod (Hear, hear.) Ha did not think he would be disaharging his duty if, without having read its meMe. be LB it en the table. (Hew, Mar.) Mr. DUNCOMBE said the right hon. gentleman had the dammisst three times before, and he relumod it each time. He oho road it. After a Mr words from M r. Escorr, disclaiming any dis courtesy towards the right hon. gentleman, the amendment was withdrawn, and the motion of adjournment agreed to. Mr. DUNCOMBE signified . kb intention of bringing the sub ject before the house again. (" Oh ES. , oh.") C EI A HIT I Mr. HUME wished to know the government in- tended to bring in a hill in the present session to regulate the charities of the country ? Sir G. GREY was understood to say, that the subject was under the consideration of the Lord Chancellor. DESTITUTE PERSONS (IRELAND) ADVANCES BILL On the motion that the report be received, Lord CLEMENTS begged to urge on the government the necessity of looking alter certain funds in the Bank of Ireland, and also the funds of the Reproductive Loan Society, and other societies, which could not be touched ex cept by act of parliament, for the relief of distress in Ireland. He wished to know what bad been done with respect to the encoura,aement of fisheries. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that 5,0001. had been voted from the Reproductive Laan Society for the encouragement of fisheries on the western coast of Ireland. . - In answer to a question from Mr. W. WILLIAMS as to the mode in which the money would be advanced, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the advance. on the security rates would be made from the con solidated fund. He already proposed to take a vote for 300,000/. Whatever other sums might be required would be voted from time to time in committee of supply. DESTITUTE PERSONS (IRELAND) BILL. On the motion for going into committee on the bill, Mr. HUTT said he was anxious to say a few words on the subject of emigration, the importance of which in connexion with the present destitution of Ireland, he believed to be un der-rated. ( Hear, hear.) He lamented that her Majesty's government alluded to the subject in a disparaging manner, the more so because he considered a systematic colonisation as one, if not the only means, by which the country could be rescued from the evils that must, he feared, ensue from a sudden transition from potatoes to corn so an article of food. (Hear.) Now, the noble lord at the head of the government had pointed out two means of employing the population, namely, home colonisation and foreign colonisation. Home colonisation would give immediate employment to the people, and an eventual return for the money expended; but it would not, for some years,alter the relation between the quantity and the supply of oad, whereas foreign coloni- I eation would, in the latter respect, even within the present year, produce some change. (Hear, hear.) In South Australia there was, at that moment, a demand for at least film thousand heads of families ; sad the Islands of New Zealand, and the Eastern coast of the Cape of Good Hope, afforded similar openings, and, without saying what amount of emigration could be borne by Canada, he erns convinced that there existed at home and abroad ample means of providing for the increasing population of I ages yet to come. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the question of cost, he might remark that the colony of South Australia had defrayed all the expense which it originally involved; and he believed that systematic colonisatien car ried out on the same principles as regarded the population of Ireland, would be attended with the same result. Unless by such means as he suggested they could provide the means of feeding the population of Ireland, that country must continue to be supported out of the purse of England and &A land, through the medium of a poor-law. Sir G. GREY said that though he was fully sensible of the importance of the subject which his hon. friend had brought before the; house, he hoped the house would not be led into an incidental discussion, but proceed at once with the bill which stood in the paper. (Hear.) On the question being again put, Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN rose, in pursuance of notice, to call the attention of the house to the propriety of estab lishing a smaller territorial division in Ireland for the purpose of poor relief rating. The hon. member said that if the subject, upon which he was about to speak, had not more immediate reference to the bill than that of emigration he would not delay the progress of the measure by any remarks. The whole terri torial arrangement of the present poor law in Ireland was based on the town-land division, which was one of the most ancient territorial divisions in that country. The poor law commissioners having already full power to do what was re quired, when properly instructed, his object was that the territorial divisions should be much smaller, and they should not only have regard to the amount of population and the extent of territory, but also to the share which each indi victual proprietor might have in the property of a parti cular townland. It had been proposed during the present ses sion to impose a tax upon absentees. No measure would be more heartily welcome than the bill proposed by the govern ment to secure the sale of encumbered estates; but he must say, he thought they would act unwisely to say to the Eng lish capitalist, whom they asked to invest his money in Irish land, that the moment he had completed his purchase, they would impose a tax upon him if he left the sod. Therefore, they had better let him invest his money first—(hear, hear) —and impose the tax afterwards. (Laughter.) With respect, however, to an absentee tax, what was proposed to be accomplished by that tax he would endeavour to effect by a different, but he hoped, a superior method. An absentee tax, it was urged, would interfere with the liberty of the subject and the investment of capital. His proposal. whilst it was free from both these objections, would enable them to draw, in the course of their legislation, a distinct differ mice between those landlards who did their duty to their tenants, and those who did not. (Hear.) He believed that the good landlords would have a right to complain were they punished for the mismanagement of others. The noble lord end the right hon. gentleman the member for Tamworth unite 1 in calling out to the Irish landlords "Help yourselves!" (Hear, hear.) Very well! He (Mr. S. O'Brien) had no objection to the advice; all he ob jected to was the course pursued in impressing it, for whilst they called out to the landlords in words " Help your selves;" by their deeds they desired them not only to " help themselves but to "help their neighbours also.' (Cheer ing.) He Called upon the English landlords, with whom he had been solely associated, and whom he knew so well, to aid him in this matter. It was their object to make Ire land loyal. At present territorial, ancestral, and aristocratic influences had more effect on the peasantry of Ireland than the law of the land. If they desired to strengthen that law they must strengthen the hands of good landlords. The government could not inflict upon the landed property of Ireland a heavier blow or a greater discouragement than by enlarging the area of taxation in that country. Mr. LA BOUCHER E said he had weighed the whole subject most maturely, and the result of his deliberation was, that it would be impossible for the government, consistently with its duty to the people of Ireland at large, to adopt in this matter the principle now urged upon them. (Hear, hear.) What was that principle—so broadly, so unequivocally, so nakedly, so earnestly enunciated by the hon. gentleman? It was neither more nor less than this—that in providing for the distress of Ireland they should deal, not with com munities, but with particular properties. (Hear, hear.) He had never heard the propoaitaon so distinctly put, as it bad been that night. He bad indeed, always thought that it lay at the bottom of the question, but it had not been so urged upon the government by the Agricultural Society of Ireland. The hon. gentleman said that he objected to the electoral district as the unit of taxation. Now, what was the electoral district ? There were about 2,050 electoral districts in Ireland, the average amount of the acreage of which was from 10,000 to 15,000 acres, certainly not too wide a tract of country, but a tract on which it might rea sonably be supposed that the landed proprietors could, with out inconvenience, ensemble together, and combine, and consult, for the public good. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gen tleman wanted to down to the townland system, there being about 600 o I townlands in Ireland, each 00-ile terminate with individual property, or, in other words, to deal, not with the community, but with individual property. He (Mr. Labouchere) considered that this wasirinciple whichcould not be safely seceded to, and be regard ed it as fraught with danger and with injustice. ( Hear, ear.) The hon. gentleman asked, will you, by having enormous areas of taxation, deprive the owners of land of all motive to take care of their own, particularly in swamping them with masses of surrounding pauperism ? Certainly, he had no desire to deprive landowners of a motive for taking care of the poor about them; quite the contrary. The' point was to avoid extremes, to adhere to a secure and prac ticable medium. By no means are districts so large as to deprive proprietors of all motive for taking care of the poor in that district, which was the very object of a poor relief law; but, on the other hand, do not unduly restrict the principle, or say to each particular proprietor, We will give to you the charge of taking care of the poor residing on your own property, but we do not ask you to combine with the proprietors around in any comprehensive system of relief for the district. He considered such a principle as most injurious in its tendency. (Hear, hear.) It was a principle which, as he believed, was not admitted into any Poor-law in the world. It was certainly not to be found in England. It was a principle, in fact, that did not apply to a free country, but only to a state of serfage. (Hear, hear.) It was quite a feudal principle. (Hear, hear.) The noble member for Newark (Lord J. Manners), cheered : the noble lord might like the principle all the better that it was a feudal principle, but he (Mr. Labouchere) who did not no I highly venerate things feudal, objected to it all the more on that account, and precisely because it did not suit Ireland any more than England in this year 1847. (Hear, hear.) ' Besides the objection as to principle, there were many grave objections to the proposition as to details, He believed that if they had to deal with 80,000 townlaada, spread over the country, with separate machinery, separate account., and separate supervision, in reference to the execution of the poor-law contemplated, they would find it impossible to execute the poor-law at all. (Hear, hear.) Aye, or even if there were only half 60,000 townlands, or a quarter. He considered that the principle would act most injuriously in very many cases, and meet unjustly. For instance, some landed proprietors in Ireland had, by way of improving their estates, thought it advisable to make a regular clearance of all the tenants upon it whom they considered ineligible. Upon the hon. gentleman's principle this process might be resorted to by any landowner disinclined to support his own poor, and he would then be exempt from the maintenance of any poor at all, and the burden would be most unfairly thrown upon the more humane proprietors of townlands around. (Hear, hear.) He thought that the hon. gentleman, under-esti mated the advantages of keeping up the co-operation and concert now existing among the members of the various local committees in Ireland. (Hear ' hear.) There had accrued already the greatest benefits from this bringing together of men of opposite creeds and political opinions, who, in these committees, learned for the tint time to know and to appre ciate, and to assist one another, and he saw vast future bene fit to Ireland from this amicable approximation of previously discordant elements. _ . Mr. M.6 : lElTtilitLL suggested that it would be better to waive the principle in reference to this temporary mea sure, leaving the subject open for discussion on a future occasion. H. W. BARRON considered the electoral divi ne= far too large. Mr. BELLEW could not agree with the hon. gentleman who had just letdown. He thought it better that even some injustice should be done to the :good landlord than that the bad should be entirely ruined. Anything amounting to a con. &cation would injure the peasant as well m the proprietor. Lori J. MANNERS mid that the right hon. the Secre tary for Ireland bad objected to =yams approaching to feudalism. He (Lord J. Manners) looked upon feudalism in a more favourable light-..a the performance of mutual duties and the preservation of mutual rights. (Oh, oh.) He might be wrong, but it was his firm conviction that tee eommunht was best served when individual rights and indi vidual duties were meet properly maintained and performed, He hoped that the house would attend to what had fallen from the hon. members for Kildare and Waterluid, and not be led away by the imaginary dangers of feudalism. Mr. OSBORNE wished to call the attention of the how to the fact that when this bill passed, two systems of re'isd would be going on simultaneously in Ireland—the peer relief and the - labour-rate acts. The object was to release 500,000 labourers from the roads for agricultural ptuposse, and this was to be done by giving relief in food. They would coat at the lowest estimate 10,0001. a day, and beside% the food contemplated, namely a quart of soup per head, would not fit a man for agricultural labour. He must enter his protest against this temporary bill. Lord BERNARD thought it of the utmost importance that the bill should become law as speedily as possible. (Hear, hear.) The house then went into committee on the bill. On Clause I. Mr. F. FRENCH proposed as en amendment, " That the appointment of relief superintendents should vest in the lord-lieutenant instead of Sir It. Routh and Sir Joseph M'Gregor, s, pr mixed by the bill." Sir 0. GREY objected to any alteration. The appnizt. meats were under the bill virtually in the hands of the lord lieutenant. Mr. FRENCH withdrew his amendment. Clause agreed to. Clauses 2 and 3 were severally agreed to. On clause 3, which provides for the formation of the relief committees, being pot. M. W. S. O'BRIEN objected that the proviso appointing justices members of the e iminitteed,wal not sufficiently defi nite, and suggested an amendment to remove lf.s objection, Considering, too, the great service s hich had been rendered by the clergy of every denomination, acting on the relief committees, he thought they ought to be members under [ this bill. Mr. B. OSBORNE bore testimony to the exertions of the clergy in relieving the distresses of the people, and suggested that one, at least, of every denomination should he appointed members of these committees, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER admitted the great services which bad been rendered by the clergy, hut the Lord Lieutenant had placed clergymen on the pre sent relief committee, and, as the power would still remain in his hands to appoint them if he thought fit, it would be much better to leave the matter in his hands. Col. CONOLLY remarked, if it were a eecessary qualifi cation that the juricts should reside in the electoral diris sion, he and many others would be excluded from these corn. mittens. This would not he the case if the residence were required to be within the limits of the union. Mr. J. O'CONNELL was of opinion that all the clergy of every denomination residing in the district should be mem bers of these committees. Sir W. SOMERVILLE: If it was provided in the bill that the clergy residing in the district should be members it would be inferred that those who did not so reside would not be eligible, which would be in tact placing a check on the discretion of the Lod Lieutenant. Lord CLEMENTS objected altogether to leaving the matter to the Lord Lieutenant, The Earl of LINCOLN, while be admitted to the fullest extent the great benefit that had resulted from the services of the clergy, thought there would be a much greater cer tainty of insuring good working committees by leaving it to the discretion of the Lord Lieutenant whether they should be appointed or not. If they did not place more limit to the number of members, the committees would become mere debating clubs. Mr. SIIA W.—Seeing the greet practical benefit that bad accrued from their presence on the relief committees, should have the greatest pleasure in seeing the clergy of all deno minations appointed under the bill. Mr. 11. OSBORNE suggested that the proviso should be struck out altogether. Mr. LABOUCtIERE considered that some control should be given to these who represented the ratepayers, and therefore could not consent to that course. Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN withdrew his first amendment, but would divide upon the introduction of the words '• the dewy of all religious denominations officiating in such electoral di s ision." Sir G. GREY hoped it would not be understood that, in opposing the amendment, the government had the least ob jection to clergymen of any denomination being members of relief committees—(hear, hear)—but the proposition of the hon. member was, that ministers of all description., should be members of the relief committees, ex officio. (Hear, and "Oh, oh.") The committee divided.—For the amendment 32 Against it l2B-96 On clause 6 being read, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (in answer to Mr. M. J. O'CoeNett) said that it was intended to give the power of appointing finance committees, not only in every union, but in several divisions of one union. On clause 7 being read, Lord CLEMENTS said the ill effects of the Labour Rate Act had arisen from the neglect of the government to define who were to be relieved, and who were not. He was of opinion that persons rated at 41. under the poor law act should be excluded from receiving relief, because he knew several farmers who received relief under the labour rate bill to the exclusion of the poor. (Hear, hear.) There melt to be some definition as to who were entitled to relief. Mr. LABOUCHERE thought it much better that a dis cretionary power should be left to the relief committees than that any strict definition should be introduced into the bill. (Hear, hear.) Mr. F. FRENCH could confirm the statement of the right hon. gentleman, that in several instances great suffer ing would be inflicted by restricting relief to persons rated at 41. Mr. BELLEW thought that a large discretionary power was necessary to carry out the bill. II is opinion was, that it would be better not to have any bill of this sort, but to teat to the permanent Poor-law Bill. The clause as amended was agreed to. On clause 8, which provides for the issuing of warrants directed to the guardians, requiring them to pay the amount of the estimate to the person named in the warrant, being put, Col. CONOLLY said it was meet unreasonable to im pose on the guardians the duty of finding the money which they had notoriously not received. (Laughter.) Mr. OSBOR eiE would venture to say that one farthing of the rates would not be collected by next harvest. (Hear, hear.) That was his firm conviction. He would venture to suggest that it would be wiser to allow the interest to such unions as were obliged to overdraw their areowitr. Mr. ROEBUCK said it was now acknowledged that itwse impossible to raise money in Ireland, though several Irish membershad undertaken the pleuine duty of abusing him foe saying so. The antics of the hon. member for Meath could not be forgotten. (" Oh, oh," arid hear.) If they were to give money, let them understand what they were about, but let them not be persuaded to lend money, which some no doubt highly honourable and honest men, pl edged themselves should be refunded; but which other, equally honest, perhaps, but more plain spoken, said they would re ceive, but without any intention to repay it. (" Hem, hear," and laughter.) The noble lord (Lord Clements) ad d thin money, like the money already expended , would not be appropriated to the poor, but to minister to the grasping desire of thou who traded on the misery of their fellow countrymen. (Hear, bear.) He put his statement In stronger language than was used by the noble lord, but fa substance it was the same as the noble lord's. (" Heir, bear," from Lord Clements.) The hon. member for Wycombe (Mr. Osborne) also confirmed the statement which be (Mr. Roebuck) made. These two propositions then were dear: that the money of the people of England would be thrown away on not merely bad and useless, but on corrupt objects ; and that the means of the laborious ind istrious people of England, imitate'', and mischievously employed, according to the words of the noble lord, would not return into the Exchequer, from which, under false pretences, they had been withdrawn. (Hear, hear.) Lord CLEMENTS must admit that what the bon. and learned member had said was correct in the main. (Hear.) He (Lord Clements) asserted that the money was misspent and misemployed—(hear, bear)—and that the poor man for whom it was intended, was defrauded of his due. (Hear.) Mr. ROSS rose to correct the misapprehension under which the member for Both laboured, as regarded the meaning of the noble lord and his bon. friend neer - him—as regarded their statement alluding to the impossibility of collecting the rates before next harvest. They did not mean to say that the portion which was to fall on the landlords would not be Paid. Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN rose to confirm what fell from the hon. member for Bath, so far that he knew that the greater number of small owners would pay no rates, and that it was imposnble to get it from them. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the picture which the hon. member had laid before the house was not very encouraging to this or any other system of relief that could be adopted. Having had several modes of affording relief under their consideration, the government came to the conclusion that this was the , i beat system they could devise. There was no doubt what I was said as to the impossibility of collecting the rates hem small owners in certain places was correct, but that was not true as a general position. They, at all events, had no doubt of being able to collect that rate which fell on the landlords. It was said that the government called upon the guardian* to act beyond the powers vested in them. This bill pm them powers which they had not before to enforce the pay ment of a rate; and if they did not put their power into exe cution, they should appoint paid guardians to do so. The object of this bill was to step in to prevent the people of Ireland from starving. Take the bill as it was, with all Its faults, and it would be found to be the only means by whisk the people could be saved. Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE rose to express his dissent from those who thought that the farmers benefited by the money e ni xf i ej th. dt eshc theßO ace PE u sai py c i l iag tha te t n if an th u e th y e atte sm m e pted wure to levy the ensue that was caused by the attempt to levy tithes on the tenantry in 1834. He thought all the rates should be paid in the first instance by the landlords. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER reminded the house that the lord-lieutenant had been obliged to stop the works in the county of Clare in consequence of the riot ous conduct of the people, and that it was there that a same derous attack was made on an overseer merely for dieehaig ing his duty. He then read a letter from Capt. Wynne, say ing, " The committees have improved greatly this week the returns will be 3,000 Ices than last, and I fully expect to strike off 3,000 more next week." It was also cited in the letter that numbers were returning to the cultivation of the soil. Mr. C. O'BRIEN complained that Captain Wyenes having made a personal charge of partial conduct Mean T