The Express. — London, England, 1847-04-23 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. MOUSE OF LORDS.—TUURSDAT, APRIL 22. The LOAD C/LANCPUBLICELLOR tOOk his seat at o'clock. Bt . !IlleLOS. PETITION9. — By the Earl of itonoue, several petitions moreln the goiernatent sAerne of edueation.—Lord BioTON, from Barytes to the same effect.—The Earl of CI.A.NCAITY from medonal edifiers ut 'Yonne, for an efficient engem of medic:id relief: from Ballleanioe, against certain ciauvie In the Poor Relief (Ireland) MU. CAMINRI.L., Million! from Inanstalaie ; the Earl of HOW,. from the county of Down ; Marquis of Loonsoose, Born Pia.. to Hants; Earl Prrawru ion, from Independent congregations ; against the government scheme of education.—By the Bishop of Domino, ton petitinns : the Marques of Loosonwire, from Wakefield, Carione, and Stepney Lord Doom to, from protestant dissenters of Birming ham : in Winr of the scheme. —Br the Earl of Itionto, against the Isigo Poor-taw MI, and • Trillion in favour of anon rating. COMM! lTl.F.S.—Bankruptiy and Insolvency (N 0.2); Fever (Ire la BOBT.—Tronye daring Election. BM. PRIVILEGE. The Marquis of that on the minutes of the day there stood in his name a motion relating to the question of landlord and tenant in Ireland. He wished to withdraw that notice, in order that the nation should crane on in an amended term after the second reading of the Psor Relief (Ireland 1 Bid, which stood fixed for Thursday, the 29th inst. Ile wished to have brought the law ( , f landlord and tenant in Ireland under their lordships' notice without in any way obstructing the progress of the Dill for the relief of the poor in Ireland, which her Majesty 'a government bad placed upon the table. With this view, and not desiring to add to the crime of being an Irish landed proprietor any ground for supposing he desired to interfere with the progress of that measure, he should withdraw the motion and briny it forward in an amended form. Though be was an Irish proprietor, he did not choose to be the butt of misrepresentation by any of the organs of public information. In the Times newspa?cr of Wednesday last, there was published a report of the proceedings in that house on the preceding evening, in which the observations he (the Marquis of Westmeath) had made were purported to be given; but much that bo had not said was attributed to him, while, on the other hand, much that he had said was carefully and intentionally omitted. It wasststed that, "the Marquis of Westmeath complained of the ridicule with which his proposal bad been received." Now, if he ever said anything in the hearing of their lordships to ex pose himself to their ridicule he must be content to lie under it ; but he knew that on the occasion referred to be bad not done so, and therefore he had not cwaplained of any ridicule. He was well acquainted with, and seas sensitisely alive to these matters, anal it was clear to him that the objet and intention of this newspaper, and of another to which he should presently refer, was, by misrepresentation, to bold him up to the antipathies ofthe Irish population. lie was not more careful about his life than was any otter of their lord. ships, but dill he did not court the bullet ef t assawin. With reap.ct to the other jonroal to which he alluded—the San newspaper—three words had been rut into his mouth which be never uttered; indeed he should be ashamed to put togo. tber a composition so illiterate, and in such bad English, as it had attributed to him. The San reported him to have said, "it was a poor thing that no exertions were made to mitigate the condition of the Irish landlord., without sub jecting them to ridicule." Now he (the Marquis of West meath) sold no such thimr. He prayed their lordships' sup port to pat • stop to this evil, and he now moved that the voider' of those two newspanem—the Timer end the Sem— & ordered to attend at the bar of this house, to answer for a breach of its privileg.s. Lord BROUGIIANI said that no person was more ready than he was to concede that it was absolutely necessary that their lordships should see that the reports of their proceed ings were given to the public with fairness, honesty, honour, and accuracy. Ile felt this as entirely and as com pletely as the noble marquis, who had stated that ho bad came to complain; and he felt that if the complaint was well founded, he joined with him in thirking that the matter was open to reprobation and erasure. At the same time, he would advise the noble marque, to take the course he (Lord Brougham) had pursued in such matters during the 37 years he had been in this anal the other Memo of parliament—namely, to avoid, if possible, needlessly inter posing the privilege of parliament in such cases. (Hear, hear.) That they had a right to exclude all persons from being present during the debates, nobody could dispute— neither could it be denied that it was by • permissive breach of the privileges of this house that those who fur nished the reports were not excluded; but, at the same time, the house ought to consider that those persons who gave to the public an account of their lordahips' proceeding* were, not ninety-nine times in a hundred, but an 909 times out of 1,000, actuated by the fairest motives— (Hear, hear) —and gave with great—with singular—with exceeding ability, and with most admirable impartiality, ac counts of all that passed within the walls of parliament.— (Hear, hear.) He (Lord Brougham) therefore put it to his friend whether he did not think the notice he had now taken of the matter was sufficient without pressing the mat ter further ? In his experience, both in the other and in I this house of parliornent, he had never known any good arise from entering suddenly into a conflict with the public press. If there had been sty wilful suppression or misre presentation., the parties aught to soiree for it, but it should be re 'membered there were great difficulties in the way of those imlividuala, thsy were now in a new house, and their lordships voices hut not yet got properly pitched so as to be fully heard. He, therefore, hoped his hon. friend would take that fact as a eireunistence of mitigation. He was sure that his nobla friend would exercise justice, and justice in mercy. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said he concurred with the noble and learned lord opposite, and on the grounds he had stated, hoped the noble marquis would not persevere in his motion. . ..... _ . . The Marquis of WESTMEATH said, after the advice given him by those of greater experience than he pos sessed, he should not be so obstinate as to refuse to adopt It. (Hear, hear.) Ho did cot wish to fetter the public press, but be must say that, in the present state of Ireland, whatever any member of either house who was con meted with Ireland might state with respect to that country ought to be accurately and correctly (riven. Ile was sorry to my that the other morning pape:s followed the same course, except the Morning Chrw;ick , wbicbgave a totally different report o' what he had stated, which showed that the inac curacy did not arise from any difficulty in h-ming. With respect to the Tunes, connecting the sentence of which he complained with an article in that paper of to-day, full of scurrilous abuse of him (the Marquis of Westmeath), which he pawed by with contempt, he felt that the misrepresenta tion was deliberate and intended, and that a part of his speech had been cut out to found the attack of to-day. How ever, Hide lordships had heard the cue with attention, and he should withdraw his motion. The LORD CHANCELLOR disclaimed any inter.tinn of wounding the feelings of the noble Marquis by the obsenn- None he had made on the previous evening. He had in. tended to confine his remarks solely to the bill then before the house. The Marquis of WESTMEATH believed the noble and learned lord was incapable of acting in an unamiable man ner, but still he felt that he had not 'beell well tr.reieti by the noble and learned lord. The mot; 7.0 wee then m ighdcauo, POOR RELIEF (In ELAND), BILL. 'tats llett k,A...n....oisttTY, after presenting some peti tions in reference to this bill, weut at SEM length into objec tions he entertained with 2TP-7w to sonia of its chew; upon which (as we understood), he expressed hit inte u gion to take the sense of the house.—Tbe low tone in which the noble earl spoke, prevents us from attempting to gists the observations which he addressed to the house. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE made a few remarks in rep`} the earltne I: h ur at po t /In i f il iwtigh no w t lt e Lwe . bel n a ie n v y e), to ass clause g-iiTrien3thae general right to out-door relief. Earl FITZ WILLIAM wished to ask a question of his noble friend, first reminding him that it was a condition in the other house, that no bill for the benefit of the proprie tors of Ireland should pass, without its being accompanied by a poor law for that country. A Lill for the ruppremon of vagrancy in Ireland had been introduced into the other house, and be wished to know, if it did not pass, if it was to be understood that the other measures would not be carried? The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said it was impossible for him to soy what course would he taken is the other house ; all ho could say was, that no efforts would be spared en the part of the gosernment to have the sagraney bill, which he considered to have a connexion with tthhe poor law, adopted without delay. FEVER (IRELAND) BILL. On the motion of the Earl of CLARENDON the house went into committee on this bill. Lord MONTEAC LE said that hewn quite in favour of the bill, but as it at present stood it proposed that the adminis tration of the hospitals should be ca.t on the medical officers of the unions; and owing to the sire of the unions they would not be efficient for the purpose. Ile wished to pro pose acme amendments which would reader the supervision more effectual. He would not, however, make them now, but would give them to hit noble friend for his consideration, end let hint decide if he thought them fitted for the purpose. He regretted that a measure of a larger kind had not been brought forward by the !government for the general improvement of medical charities in Ireland without which they were shorn of half their usefulness. For such a pur pose the proprietors of Ireland were prepared to ke taxed. The Marquis of IVESTMEATH suggested, that as the facilities for getting diplomas in Scotland were so great, sad practitioners came from there to Ireland, some protection should be given to the members of the Irish college. The Earl of CLANCARTY regretted that the government did not last session introduce a measure founded on the Medical Charities The Marquis oft ec ARICARDE said that this measure was entirely temporary. It was impossible to frame a general bill for the administration of medical charities in Ireland so as to meet the present evil. The Elul of CLARENDON observed that it was necessary that this bill should pass without delay. The bill then passed through committee, and was reported ; to be read a third time to-morrow (this day). Their lordships adjourned at 25 minutes to 7. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—TtlfritaßaY, APRIL 22. The Bpeaka took the chair at four o'clock. _ _ PRIVATE BUSINE4S. PErrnoNs.—B, Mr7CiensOrrCet, aga ---- inst the Liverpool Water 1 Works BilL—Mr. Oaac a, against 110131 C or the branches of the Eastern Counties B. Dramas, against the Leeds, Be and set:nary. Manchester xatlway.—Loral H. VANK, against the era lee.— Mr. M. J. O'Coerstit., against the South Wales and the Birmingham nod Oxford lines REPOILTS.-11artlepool West Mohair and Dock (dock extension) ; London and South W( ,tern Railway 'widening, tee.) ; 171IRD READINGS.—Denren Weerworks and Bearrohi ; New haven Detour, Owe Lower Navigation. and Lerma awl Masten Drainage; Newmarket and Chenlerford Railway (eztexidan to met h:ad) ; Newmarket and Chesterford Railway (gee:neon to Racy St. rAmond's, with a branch to Ely); Bille. PUBLIC BUSINPSS. PETlTlONS.—Rdoestion: By Mr. 0. B. rams, from dissenters and Sun.l.tyachsta teacher. of Bristol ; Me from disteiVera of Milton, Nottingham, and other place,; Mr. Bawler, from Cam beige, Nernesstie-an.Tyne, anal about SA other plans; Mr. Mac. anise., from Leamington aad other Oates; Mr. Paormotoe, from dissenters of Ihdlfax ; Mr. 13. envenom, from a place in Middlesex. --Sir W. etvw, a petition tram a dare n oti breed, and by en boo. member. against the government seleeme of odunition.—Sir R. Inoue, from a place in Latlealelirej Sir .1. C. Ifoultur‘r, from Nottingham; Mr. Mai.% from ministers end churchwardens m Bristol; Sir J. II A, MLR, from the ouermine of Bull; Mr. Bemoans, front Romney ; Mr. (altillak, front Wykehant ; Mr. Moracenor, from Leamington; Ste. reanann, from &Owe's Yorkshire; WM. , lay, from a place not heard; by an hoc. member also, and Mr. Mem . ; mural potitiom. all in favour of the ocheros of alocation—Sir R. Is , aort from ministers of Ahrosent, agaimt. the Scotch Registruitut Bill.—Mr. Miens, from a pill:r in 140111011etahlre, against the Poor Remora) Act.—Mr. Poets, from a hedy of farmers, in favour of the Agricultural Tenant eight BILL—CoI. /dean from Ayrshire, agninet the scotch Itegatrution itill.—Mr. Y. swoon, from a plate in Yortehire, against the Antnany I Bill.—Mr. Ir .star, from inhabiunts of liolteirn. for a poor-law In Ireland; from a augment is the OM GraMon Go ord.. eotnnlmoiog of the opproalve conduct of his superior °Mee, s ' • tram operatives of ' Glasgow, in form to e of the Feet Stu Bill; from the parishes of St. George ant Si. Gina, against the Health of Towns thlL—Mr. lien. Ans 4. from York, arainat any further coneeerions to the Roman Casholto..—Sir C. Nat-roe, from Inhabitants of Marylebone. com plaining of the conduct of the emolutesioners of Bowers; from a public meeting in London, in _favour of the elation of the Rajah of *tura. COMMITTEES ON PRIVATE BILLS. Mr. HUME moved—" That all committees on private bills be coast:tilted of flee members only. who shall be ap pointed by the committi e of selection, in the same manner as committees on railway bills; Visit the committee of classi fication shall form into groups ail bins which, iu their opi nion, it would be expedient to submit to the 'erne commit tee; that the resolutions of the house, ef 3rd Feb., 1847, I.:- toting to niileay bills, be extended to all railway bills; that, at the commencement of each session , a panel of chairmen of committees 03 private bills be appoint. 0 by the commit tee of selection, and reported to the house ; and that the chairman ef every committee be selected from such panel." RE-iOLUTIONS ON RAILWAY BILLS. Sir J. li ItAHAM moved to &maid the first resolution of the 23rd of February last, relatiag to railway hills, by omit ting the words " considered in committees of this house," and to substitute the words "reported by committees to this house." As the resolution stood, it was productive of great delay and inconvenience. All the ends proposed by the re solution would be answered by substituting the words he suggested, and by allowing the commitipes to report before 4cceling on the preamble of a bill. Mr. STRU IT said he was not in any way answerable for the delay which the resolution had oczasioned. Mr. E. YORKE spoke of the inconvenience which had been occasioned to a committee of which be was eaairman. After a few words from Mr. F. BAILING, Mr. B. DENISON, end Mr. Gibbon:in, Mr. HUME said that if the railway commissioners had not the power to compel the necessary returns, they ought to come to the house for additional powers. Mr. STItUTT said the commissioners hod not yet been delayed its their duties through the absence of returns; when such a case arose, they should apply to the house. The motion was then agreed to. POOR REMOVAL ACT. Mr. BANK ES — said that he wiehcd to ask the right hon. pc:airman the Secretary of State for the 'Lime Department, whether the motion which he had on the notice-paper for that day week respecting the Poer•law, had any te:erence tc the Pot. Remosnl bill of last session. Sir 0. GREY said that he merely intended to propooe on alteration in the administration of the koor-law, but to make no alteration in the law itself. . . . . . . Mr. BANKES then gave notice that on that day wet k he would move for leave to bring in a bill to repeal the Puar Removal Ant. . . 'SECRET - PAPERS OF THE EAST INDIA COM PANY. . . . Mr. HUME said that, iiill;e w as no objection, he would like to more for a list of secret papers laid before the Court of l) rectors of the East India Company by tho Board of Co itrol since January, 1840; distinguishing those papers that wens kept in secret court of &meters. Sir .1. 11011IIOUSE said that he did not know the exact way in which the hon. gentleman wbhed the list to be made. Mr. ILUIssE said that whit ho wanted was a list of the papers, not what they contained. Sir J. HOBBOUSE said that he wished to consider on the matter; he feared that there were strong objections to making out such a list, as he believed au additional number of clerks would be required for the purpose. Mr. lIUME then postponed his mob m. MILITARY TRANSPORTATION. Mr. HOPE wished to ask a question, of which he gave notice., relating to the transportation of military offenders. He understood that in future it was intended to convey criminals from India to undergo their sentence in the Cape of Good Hope. He wished to know if that were correct, and if so, whether the arrangement was made with the con currence of the colonial authorities, and how the convicts were to be rum:totted ? Mr. lIAW ES said that with regard to the transportation of military coot lets, the only reference made to tho Cape of Good Hope was this. that military convi.ns at the Mauri- tius should be provided for at the Cape of Good Hope. where there was a convict depot which was worked to great advantage. With regard to their support, they were to be supported by the imperial, not the colonial, funds. There was no other provision for them at present. SEES OF ST. ASAPH AND BANGOR. Mr. COLLET 1" moved for copies of all corre.pondvnce with the Bishop of Bangor, of any cue submitted to the law officers of the crown, and of their opinion on the subject previously to the appsintment of a bishop of St. Asaph is July 1846. Ha uid that it would be resnem' , ererl that, in the early part of last session, he had asked whether there was any intention, in the caseof a vacancy taking p:ace in either of the sees, of uniting both. He Wished now to know whether such was intended? Mr. WAK LEY seconded the motion. _ _ _ Sir G. GREY said that all the corresponder ce that had taken place was quite of a private nature. It was not in tended to consolidate the two bishoprics, in case of a vacancy, without the consent of the survivor. He could not consent to the hon. membcr's motion. Mr. COLLE IT said that he should take the st nse of the house on the subject. Sir 0. GREY - said that the hon. gentleman mitht have —..ouerstood him. What he said was, that no consolida tion could take place, without a vacancy in the Lahoprie ; and not then, without the consent of the survivor. Mr. COLLETT : Is not it possible that they could die at the same time ? [Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and, on our return, we understood that the motion was negatived, without a division .1 DRAINAC; I , ', OF LAND IN SCOTLAND. The LORD ADVOCATE moved for and obtained leave to bring in a bill to regulate the drainage of land in Scotland. ..ENT PLAN OF EDUCATION.— ADJOURNED DEBATE. _ GOV Sir W. CLAY resumed this debate, end said that it was his intention to rapport the motion of the hon. member for Finsbury, but in doing so he would state the reasons which induced him to come to that determination. lie intended by his vote to es.r.iess his disapnrobation of the goveernme it plan, and not to pass censure on the government for intro ducing it, nor did he man to denote by that that his opi niea was that the st.te should not interfere with the educ Von of the people. The noble lord said that he did not ap prove of every pert of the scheme; indeed, if the noble lord kid not Val; them so, he would not have believed that hi di.l approve of it entirely. Ile was of opinion that there were such objections to the plan, that .it would be much better to wait until they were able to propound a better measure, and a more auspicious period, than to press this one forw ardi now. This was not a mere grant of 101,000/. The government did more than look for that: they naked the house to adopt a large principle of national education. His chief objection to the bill was, that it would increase the in fluence of the church: he did not at all ague that it would increase the influence of the crown. It would tend to place the education of the entire people of this country in the hands of the clergy of the church of England, whom it would invest with entirely new functions. He was told that the advantages offered by the scheme would be participated in by the dissenters if they would comply v.ith the necessary conditions, but those conditions were too stringent to enable them to do so. For instance the trustees and managers of schools must pro vide a house for the master rent free, and a certain sum veiling from 301. to 60/. a-year, and he would venture to ask in how many parishes in England the dissenters would be able to comply with such a rule ? Obviously but in few. (titan, hear.) It was scarcely necessary to say that the Roman catholics would ty ke no benefit from the measure. If the noble lord had brought forward a comprehensive scheme of national secular education, combined with the means of religious views being inculcated by the spiritual instructors of the children, it would have been very generally accepted; meanwhile, so great were the objections to the proposed plan that it was better to do without it until the country could get a measure more worthy of the character of the noble lord and the sanction of the house. (Hear, hear.) He should feel it his duty to vote in favour of the amendment. Sir 1. 8. PAKINGTON said he thanked the government for the plan which they had proposed. The hard ship of the children of dissenters being excluded from church of England schools, in parishes where the dissenters were not sufficiently numerous to have schools of their own, bad been complained of, and he thought with some justice. He thought the time was come when the state was bound to take some steps to meet the fearful requirements of the country as to education, but, as an attached member of the church of England, and .also as a member of the National School Society, he would ap proach this great subject in a Spirit of charity, and with an earnest desire for religious peace. (Cheers.) He was anxious to call the attention of the house to one re markable instance in this country—to one of its most splendid institutions, in which 1,200 scholars were educated annually, who were the children of plants of almost all religious denominations, and who, nevertheless, were oda cated together in perfect harm=y—(hear, hear) ;—and what was more important, the system was carried out without the slightest violation of rel igious duty. (Hear, bear.) He alluded to King Edward's School, at Birmingham. He begged tore commend this system to the notice of the government. (Hear.) As a member of the Church of England, he wished it were possible to confine religious teaching to that church; but, whatever were his wishes, he must bear in mind that there were great religious differences in the country ; and looking to that, and the degree of ignorance which exi sted in it, he thought that much good might be done, that much evil might be averted, and that religious peace would be greatly promoted if those who were connected with the National Society—those who taught on behalf of the Church of rhigkeacCchh'ear7)remillidthe snake e gh m t m th e at ec' ins nee'' tetti i r o o be n in t g ht in iz. gain advantage by doing so. (Hear, ) He coalesced he thought the p iear ougit tolibe on a larger scale. (If p resent nt .) m after the declaration of the nobl e l or d , that e mu s er B tr i ' would have been done for education. (Hear beer ) At ;l e e sometime, he was ready to allow for the difficulties which stood in the way of a more extended scheme, and that if those difficulties were such as to prevent the government THE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EVENING, APRIL 23, 1847. from going beyond the present limited plan, that plan could net be framed on a more judiceoes sail excellent system. Mr. HUME was anxious to give his opiuion on a subject which had engaged much of his attention. Ile must say, with the hon. gentleman who had just spoken, that he telt disappointed with this measure, after the address of the nob:e lord to his constituents in the City of London. He had expected a measure on such a comprehensive scale as would be calculated to meet the overwhelming progress ef ignorance and crime in this coun try. (Hear, hear.) He also concurred with the hon. mem ber in hoping that the Church of England and the dissenters likewise would mutually concede some of their scruples on this question, and unite for the suppression of ignorance and its consequences. When he saw 7,000,000/. voted in the army and only 100,0001. for the education of the whole people, it appeared to him to he matter of reproach to them selves and the government, for he was sure tut people of the country would be prepared tie bear a much larger charge for the purposes of education , and the longer they delayed to grapple boleti. with the difficulties of the question, the more diffi cult would it be found to deal with. - In England crime iu the well educated counties was less by 32 per cent. than in the counties where ignorance prevailed. He there fere, lamented that this measure was not more extended, and named so that all Oases might partake of its benefice. Ile might be told that this was the best measure which the government could hope to carry. Ile doubted that. lint the noble Jordon this occasion hart nut shown moral courage. He was "finking," as it was now expressed. (Laugher.) Let them understood that the church was opposed to general education. With all their relies and paraphernalia he wauld not care a pin for the bishoiss if they attempted to oppose what was just and right. (Hear, hear.) There was soother set of mon, the dissenters, which were almost as bad. (Laughter.) Thcy were anxious to dragoon the public and the house into their peculiar views, bet let the governmeet go forward towards what was just, regardless of both, and he had no fear for the ultimate result. (Hen, hear.) It was said that the people most not ettly be instructed, but morally and religiously instructed, forgetful that the first short step towards morale and religion was to be instructed at all. (Hear.) He was prep ared . to answer Mr. Baines and his eleven absurd proposinons not one of which was tenable, but he would not weary the house. He would only observe that they could not be maintained for one moment by any true friend of civil or religious liberty. (Hear.) It was said this wag a difficult subject. Ile admitted it was difficult, but so were many other things difficult to cowards. (Hear, hear.) Let them stand up for the truth--let them have a committee of inquiry, and have the best of the bishops and the best of the dissenters before them, in order to ask them what their case of morale was. (Hear, hear.) Its thought that the government should have done what experience proved ought to be done. Ile did not think that they were lees capable of meeting the difficulties of such a question, than the people of Holland, or the people of Ireland. (Hear, bear.) With such examples before them, why not try to intrudsee the same system? In the schools in Dublin lie had seen, last year, Preteetant, catholic, and persons of all religious opinions united; not the least dissension being raised on the subject of religion. If her Majesty's government would agree to the motion for a committee, they would be able to see distinctly what it was I that the church, on the one hand, end dissenters on the other, had to urge in opposition to the establishment of a similar sys tem in this country. Let those, whether disierters, or churchmen, who were quarrelling about points or little csn sequence, lay their handset, their hearts and say, if they could, that by keeping up ouch rancorous feelings, in relation to educati in, they were not the producers of crime ; let them show, if they were able, that they were nut the real offenders and ought not to take the places of those who were punished by the state. (Hear, hear.) He maintained that such parties were responsible for three-fourths of the crimes which were committed. It was painfal to him to see so many of his fellow-mea, because born in less fortunate circumstances than others, consigned to crime and all itssircorupar. intents. Ile thought the country required a more comprehensive measure than that proposed, son Le should vote for the committee, be cause he would undertake to prove that a greater step could be taken beneficially. He hoped to see the time when there would be a Minister of Instruction, and a board composed of members of different religious bOdiet, to promote the work of education in this country. Sir W. JAMES said be was in favour of the scheme be- cause he agreed that they had now arrived at a crisis Su the fortunes of the country e hen it was imperative that some thing should be done on this great subject. Without going into statimical details, he would sok what could be more lamentable than the fact that, of every 103 persons in this realm of England, only about 30 or 40 were able to read ? hear)—or the fact that between 800,000 and 1,000,000 children were left to run about the streets, some of whom were brought up to rapine as a professien, while nearly all were left "without Goal is the world," and in a condition which must lead to ultimate ruin. (Hear, hear.) He did n , t, indeed, consider the pre sent measure perfect, but ho thought that it was, upon the whole, the best that could be obtained, while public opinion preponderated, perhaps, in favour of it. (Hear, hear) When, such men as Dr. Hook, on the one side, and Dr. Vaughan,' • on the other, were seen giving up their mutual pre- judices, and saying that they were willing to adopt a system of secular education, it was impossible not to admit that the popular current vies now running strongly in that direction. Most unfeignedly did he regret the exeffision of his Roman catholic brethren teem this measure. The noble lord at the head of the government, the noble lord at the head of the woods and foreste, and the right hon. Secretary of State for the Home Department, had ahjured their own measure so far as to say that they could not fee any length of time sit on the board if the Roman eatholies were to be excluded from participation in the grants ; but so far as the measure itself woe concerned, it was impossible to deny that it created a new Roman catholic livability. With all its disadvantages, however, be had, as he said before, made up his mind to support this measure. Ile hod, indeed, heard no arguments against it, and to it he should give his support. Sir J. EASTIIOPE deeply regretted the course which had been taken upon this subject by her Majesty's govern. ment. There wcs no occasion for the cone-Pion, they had made. They had given way where they were not required to give way. But ho voted for the measure Intense he would not incur the opprobrium of opposing any measure of education. To prevent was better than to punish, and, therefore, to the benefit of instruction he was dispaseil to look before any other meanie. lie seecially trusted the wesleyans would read the speech of tee noble lord the member fur Arundel, and learn from it a lesson of charity and good feeling. (Ilea:, hear.) Ile loved the noble lord for his boldness ; he loved him for his good feeling; and were his words to consign him to a private life for ever, he would add that he landed him for the sentiment of his address. (Cheers.) • Mr. S. CRAWFORD said be should vote far the amend ment. Be was friendly to education, and friendly moreover to education by the state. But if the state interfered with education she should do so in a manner useful and oilcan teems t 4 el. She could not do so under these minutes. Why had they not adopted the system in force in Ireland ? union in education was of the greatest possible importance, and it was because he entertained that opinion that he so much deplored the course the government had taken with ' reference to Roman catholics. The government had invaded the rights of Roman catholics, and on that ground alone, if on no other, their proposals ought to be resisted. If the go vernment had acted toward the eatholics out of deference to the Wesleyan', he believed they bad been deceived as to the feeling of that body. Methndiste were very numerous in the town he represented, anti they were very liberal in their feelings towards their fellow-subjects, of whatever persuasion. Believing the measure opposed to t'm peinci l.le' of civil and religious liberty, he should decidedly vote against it, although he should undoubtedly giro his vote with great regret, both because he was vot ing against the government and against a motion on the question of edu cation. Sir W. MOLBSWORTH said he could not agree with the propriety of of the motion of the honourable member for k icebury for a committee of inqairy. The hoc a was competent to form an opinion without any such fisqt.:ry. But u they were to take the general debate upon his e nendment, the first question to discuss wal whether the date ought to interfere at all with the education of the wopin ? Only two members, the members for Durham and Nottingham, had argued in the negative of that proposi tion, and the arguments of both of them had been completely answered. Wu there any reason on the other hand why the state should not interfere ? Was the subject unworthy the consideration of the state, or was the state uninterested in making her children good and obedient nib jects 1 Education seemed to him to be the highest duty of the state. Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle were of that opinion, and we had advanced little beyond their views in ethics or in polemics. The better instructed the people were, the richer and better they were likely to become. We were at this momenta'. our wits' end as to the best mode of checking crime. We had tried all sorts of punishments, and all had failed. Why not, then, try prerention, instead of punish ment / He felt persuaded that though a good system of punishment might somewhat stay the progress of crime, no thing would diminish its amount so effectually as good schools and good schoolmasters. (Hear, hear.) We had also tried • pier -law to check poverty, and bad failed in that. Let ua now try education to prevent it. (Hear, hear.) Well, then, having disposed of that argument, he came to the next point : what was the best mode of educating? The education at present afforded in the schools for the poorer classes was for the most part wholly inadequate—the masters and =strews alike infirm in body and in mind, many of them, indeed, having sought the office as a last resource sga:nst penury and starvation, and been ad mitted to it as an act of charity, without any sort of refer ence to their qualifications. The advocates of the voluntary' system said that in time they would give education to all, but when was this time to arrive ? How much misery must be undergone, how much crime committed, ere the millennium of voluntary educators was attained? It was asserted that the working classes repudiated the idea of state educa tion. He might certainly be mistaken in the matter, but his belief was that the great body of the working classes would infinitely prefa to have their children educated by the state than by pi irate charity. (Hear, hear, hear.) As to the extent to which education should be dd.. fused by the state, it appeared to hint that every child, the poverty of whose parents presented them from procuring for it instruction, should be enabled by the state to attain, at all events, the elements of moral ani intellectual education. He now came to the c,uestion of the exclusion of Roman catholic*. (Hear, hear.) Their exclusion had not been heard of until within the last few days. (H aar , h ear .) There was no indication F fit in the minutes of this bath of last year; no mention in it in the reply mad ia g a t a r. K. Shuttleworth on the part of the council, to the s t Mr. Langdalo for assistance to several Romaa edesale, and that letter was dated en the 6th February bet, de the contrary, that reply expressed. the Radium et the sound) to receive applications equally frem Roman estholic schools as from any others. (Hear, hear.) There was also another letter, from Dr. Shuttleworth to Mr. Langdale, of the 18th I February, which gave no room to anticipate any anch exclusion. The speech of the noble lord, on Monday but, explained how this exclusion had originated, showing that the entirely novel interpretation of the minutes of the coun sit, in pursuance of which Roman catholic schools were to be excluded, was owing entirely to the concessions which government had thought proper to make to the Wesleyan body—concessions, be it borne in mind, which, while they precluded Roman catholic' from the benefit" of those schools maintained by public bounty, and consequeetly by the contri butions partly of the Roman catholics the.meelves, insisting upon the perusal in them of the whole scripture, according to the authorised version, still permitted to the British sod Foreign Society to use portions only of the scripture—the rule, now to be rigorously applied to the Roma% catholics, requiring the perusal of the whole scripture, according to the authorised version. The only comment upon this would be to read a resolution agreed to yesterday at a meeting of Roman catholic* assembled on the subject, and which de clared that the meeting, deeply impressed at the outrage offered to the rights of conscience by the declaration mute by the government that catholics wore to he excluded from a participation in the grant to be voted by parliament for all other religious communities, called upon all classes of cache ' lin to unite in one cry of indignant reprobation at the insult ing exceptiun from a public grant made from a public fund. The lion. baronet concluded with aunouricing his intention, on a future day, to move that any minutes of the committee of the privy eau flea, or any other regulation excluding Roman cetholies from a participation in any grant of public money for the purposes of education, be rescinded. Viscount el AIION said it was quite clear that things could not remain in their present condition, as regarded the education of the pez.ple. Under all circumstanese, ho thought the plan of the government the least objectionable that could be suggested, ace therefore he was prepared to give it his hearty support. Sir J. OR.IHANI—Sir, I am always most unwilling to occupy the time and attention of the house, hut m I conclude that the hon. member for Finsbury intends to press his motion to a division, I cannot reconcile it to my sense of public duty to give a silent vote 02 the present occasion. hear) The motion made by the noble lord at the head of the government is, that the house resolve itself into a committee of supply for the purpose of glancing a vote of 103,0001. of the public money in aid of education throughout Greet Drititin. The amendment of the hon. member for Finsbury is that a select committee be appointed for the pur pose of inquiry. Now it appears to me, with reference to this =hint, that inquiry is altogether superfloous. (Hear. hear.) The facts era notorious. The inadequacy of the means e.f education, in England at least, is admitted on all hands, and if, as has been implied, this motion is made for the purpose of implying a censure on the govern ment, although 1 am not prepared to say that come errors have not been committed, yet I think it would be unjust in the extreme to mark with severity any attempt made in so useful a direction. On the contrary, so well aware ant I of he extreme difficulty that surrounds the subject, that I think it my bounden duty to meet it with anything but .everity, and rather to lend my aid to rectify cenisuons than to exercise my ingenuity in finding matter for censure. (Hear, hear.) It is in this spirit that I shall direct my attention to the motion before the house. (Cheers.) On the very threshold the abstract proposition presents itself, is it, or is it not, the duty of the state to interfero with the edu cation of the people? 1 cannot hesitate in discussing this abstract question to come to the conclusion that it is not only among the highest duties, but among the noblest—if it be not indeed the noblest—functions of a government to do everything in its power to extend the knowledge, to elevate the m wale, and to cultivate end cherish the religious feelings of the people entrusted to its care. (Cheers.) And in a Christian assembly I cannot hesitate further to say that my own conviction is, that the noblest system of education ever presented to man is the spite of morality which has re ceived the divine sanction, and which holds out to humanity the highest hope of future rewards, and the greatest terror of future putusloments. (Hear, hear.) This view would lead me to an important quettion on which I do not intend to enter—although I should be prepared to justify it—l mean the alliance of the state with the religion of tho majority, in other words, the connexion between church and state. I leave that, and turn to the real and pracical question. If it be admitted, as I think it generally has been, that in the abstract, it is the duty of the govern ment to promote the education of the people, the real ques tion for our consideration is, how shall that duty be performed ? Now, as is the cave with almost every question of policy, the practical question must have reference to the varying circumstances or the United Kineilern. Reference has been made to Scotlend in a most pointed and able mintier by the right hon. gentatnan who represents the metropolis of that country and, sir, in reference to Scotland, at an early period of its history, when one form of religion was cordially embraced by its entire people, their legislation was in direct coincidence with pub lic feeling, education was allied to the church, and there was no difficulty whatever about the matter. (Hear, hear ) When the preshy terian religion was established, first under JlllllOl, rind eubsequent/y at the revolution, under William 111.. together with the establishment of the church, education was allied with that church, and formed part of the parochial system which received first the sanction of the Scottish parliament, and sueseqeently that of the pan liament of the United Kingdom. There the education of the people is alliance with tie church was the particular care of the state, until those unhappy disputes which day by day deplore. There was until then such a coincidence that reli gious feeling and secular education went hand in hand ; and if I were to mention the diatinguishing feature of Scotland, that which forms the brightest page in her history, it would be that union which, in spite of the difficulties which poverty and various circumstances have created, has raised her to a level with the highest among the civilised nations of the world. (Hear, hear.) So much fur Scotland. In Ireland the circumstances were exactly different. There the religion of the state was that of a small minority, while dissent from that religion was the distinguishing feature of the great majority of the people. There legislation was not indeed attempted, hut this united parliament, year by year, granted considerable sums of the public money in aid of a system of education not in alliance with the church, but, on the con trary, I am sorry to say, viewed with an evil eye by the established church in that country. It was, however, a sys tem to which the great body of dissenters had free admission, and is which at the same time churchmen might also freely participate. (Cheers.) I have shown„ then, that the views of ppaan liament have varied with Unvarying circumstances of the United Kingdom, and adapted themselves to the condition of the people. Here, in this country, from a very early period, unhappily down to the latest moment, the greatest possible difference of opinion on the subject of religion has prevailed, and all claws of the community have been bitterly divided on the question of religious education. That difference of opinion has constituted the real difficulty with respect to the education of the people. (Hear, hear.) The etate has never interfered is England to a great extent in the matter of education. It has been left to the voluntary efforts of the established church, and to the different die tenting sects. Now, lam bound to say, that in my own person I have had 601110 experience with reference to rs'< tempts on the part of ministers of the crown to interfere more actively. (Hear, hear.) I may not have been able to render as much aid to the cause of educa tion as my zeal would lead mo to desire, but I have done this, I have sounded the depths and difficulties of the subject, I have tried the channel and marked the rocks and shoals to he avoided by future governments, and thus made their path easy, whenever they might wish to promote the cause of education; and, with all my experience, I am bound to say that I do not think the question of national education in England is as yet ripe for legislation. (Hear.) I think it imperatively necessary that the course hitherto pursued should be persevered io, and that an annual vote should be, brought under the consideration of parliament, so that the 'question should continue open for discussion. I should be unwilling to weary the house, but I wish to point out how cautious its steps bare been in the assistance given to education. I think it was Lord Grey who at first asked for a small sum to assist in the building of schools; when twenty or thirty thousand pounds were placed at the disposal of the treasury. Subsequently that sem was aug mented, but the distribution was placed at the disposal of a committee of the privy council. Of course the differences of opinion on the subject of religion to which I have adverted rendered any interference as to the quality of education par ticularly difficult. This was avoided by confining the assistance to building the fabric of the schools, and with a view to getting rid olthe discussion of different creeds, con nexion was confined by the state to two institutions main tained by voluntary contributions—one. the National Society in connexion with the established church; the other, the British and Foreign Society, which, although supported by many churchmen, had also the confidence of a large portion of the dissenting body. Until a compa ratively recent period-1839—n0 assistance was given except to the building of schools, and the further restriction was observed that the school to be built should belong to one of the two societies. The first relaxation of this rule, and it was a partial and guarded one, took place when Lord Melbourne was at the had of the government in 1839. The order in council of that year, as a general rule, still maintained it indispensable that the school to be assisted should belong to one of the two societies, but there was a relaxation with reference to special cases, which were to be considered apart from the society's, to be found in the order of 1839. I am not aware that the government of Lord Melbourne, after passing the order of 1839, ever gave any amistance, except towards building the fabric, nor am I aware that they ever entertained more than one or two special cases, even taking care that the con ditions they bad themselves prescribed were observed. To one of those special cases it will be my duty before I sit down more particularly to advert. My right hon. friend on the bench below me came into office in 1811, and my bite noble friend, Lord Wbarncliffe, was at the head of the council. In concert with my right hon. friead he proceeded to carry into execution the order in council as amended in 1839. It will be observed that up to this time no public money had ever been granted, except as a principal sum, no annual income was pledged in aid of the building. I think that for the first time some assistance was given in 1842 to two normal schools—one in connexion with the National Society, to which 5,0001. was given, and the other belonging to the British and Foreign ociety, which was assisted with a similar sum. In Scotland, also, for the first time, 10,00 W. was given out of the vote of the year, for the purpose of founding two nor : mill schools in aid of the parochial system in that country in connexion with the established church—one at Glasgow, the other at Edinburgh. Up to 1843, no annual sum was , pledged prospectively by government in aid of education ; but in that year government informed parliament of the progressive steps which were taking, and, for the first time, they consented to pledge the faith of the state to the grant I of annuities in favour of education. To the National Society , 1,0001. was granted for their normal schools ;to the British and Foreign School Society, 750 e ' • and I think a promise was made elan annual contribution to the normal schools in Scotland. i After this departure from the rigour of the original rule, • applications were premed upon the council for further mist , ance, by annual contributions in aid of deficiencies, and in augmentation of the salary of masters. Special cases then came to be considered ; and it then appeared clear to me, that if these special owes ware multiplied, and if the rule of connexion with one of the two societies was departed from, the question in which we are now involved would arise, and it would be necessary to decide whether, under the head of special cases (it being shown that for the popula tion of the place, the means of education were wholly dcfi. Meat, and that in consequence a large number of children were in the most degrading ignorance ; that the education of tl.at portion of the community was in a state quite unworthy of the country and the see)-1 say it ap peared to roe that if those special cases ware allowed with respect to one class of dissenters, it would be quite impos slide, on any principle of lei:Rees, impartiality, policy, oe religious liberty, to make an invidioust exception with respect to any one class of tb: community. (Cheers.) That rule steadily maintained while I had any share iu the delibera tions of the committee; that rule wen adhered to by my colleagues; and though we had then the power of con sidering " special cases," we voluutarily folluwei the exam ple of our predecessors in the government, and rigidly abstained from the exercise of that power, thinking that the rule could not Inc departed from without makimo it known to parliament, and feeling that, in the midst of the religious dissensions of this country, any attempt at that departure would give rise to a struggle much to be deplored. (Hear, bear.) However, the preeent government, pressed by the notorious tact of the inadequacy of the means of education, and it. effect upon morals, has thought that the time has arrived when some relaxation rf the rigour of this rule has become absolutely necessary. This led to the proposal last year of the order in council which we are now du cussirg. Am I sorry that the Weslevans are admitted to partake of the aid of the itite ? For from it. I rejoice that they, who have done so much without govern ment assistance, should now receive that aid which I am confident they will use to advantage. But this I am bound to say : if you depart from the ierict rigour of the rule, and admit that dissenting bodies are entitled to aid from the at to in conducting their respective schools, in connexion with their respective creeds, I cannot—considering the posi tion of my Roman catholic fellow-subjects—recollecting not only that they are my fellow-christians, but that their chris lion doctrine is the christian doctrine professed and believed by the larger portion of the civilised world in which chris tianity exists—l cannot, for one moment, assent to the doc trine that the Roman catholics should be an exception to the extension of the grant. (Loud cheers.) The paition occu pied on this particular point is the least tenable of any. It is the revival of the old Roman cutholic question under the most unhappy circumstances. (Hear, hear.) The Roman catholics were admitted to equal privileges and rights Mother respects long before they were admitted to seats in this house, from which they were only excluded by an oath which, in their consciences, they could not take ; though apparently a flimsy, it was an effectual, barrier against their admission to parliament. I tun not prepared to argue as to the inter. pretation of the words " bible," " testament," or " scrip tures," in the order of council of 1839, as meaning the authorised version ; I will assume that it was intended the authorised version only should be used in the schools to which aid was granted ; but that is a most unfortunate ground on which to rest the exclusion of the Roman catho lics from this aid. (Hear.) What is the authorised version of the scriptures—and what is the version used by the Roman catholic* ? It is that bible from which Boman and Fsinelon drew their texts, when they preached ; it is that version from which Pascal drew his immortal "Thoughts." (Hear, hear.) And shall we, in our protestant zeal, set up this ver sion as the sole barriet against the participation of the Roman catholic; in the grant? (Hear.) Not only have the Roman catholics no difficulty in complying with the other requi sitions of the order of 1839, but they are prepared to show that the very terms used admit their claim in the strongest manner. As hon. member has alluded to Mr. Langdale. I have had an intimate acquaintance with that gentleman from my youth ; he is incapable of deceiving any one ; his word is implicitly to be received. (Ilear, hear.) I have had various interviews with him on this subject, and he assures me that in such places as Manchester and Liverpool, and even in this metropolis, large maws of our Irish Roman catholic fellow-subjects are congregated in great destitution, and utterly deprived of the means of education. And Mr. Langdale assures me that, with respect to " special came," with the exception of the single requirement of the autho rised version, no body of dissenters would hare so little diffi culty in proving irresistibly their title, under the rules of the order in council, to a full participation in this grant. (Hear, hear.) Be this as it may, I certainly am of opinion that an effort should at all events be made, by commu:iication with the Roman catholics, as well 131 other classes, to ascertain whether an accommodation may not he effected on this point, and that terms may be made with the Roman catholic body for this purpose. (Hear.) I do not gather from the speech last night of the right hon. the Secretary of State, that he is opposed to this view ; on the other hand I believe he is decidedly wilting that such accommodation should be effected. (Hear.) Then it becomes a question of time. (Ilea:, hear.) And I ask . myself, is it just to the Roman catholic, to postpone the dec ision of this question ? (Cheers.) I can see some expediency in ppetponing it ; but I am bound to say that I can see no justice in it. (Cheers.) If we were only about to pose a vote of 100,003!., and if no new rule was to be established, I could very well comprehend the postponement of this question to a later period. But this vote, taken in connexion with the order in council of 1846, is an adoption by parliament of an entirely new principle. (Cheers.) Various estimates have been formed of the con tingent cost of this vote ; no one estimates at much less than a million in a short time. (Hear.) I do not speak this grudg ingly; I shall rejoice if the spread of education in conse quence of this grant lead to so large an expenditure for a purpose so beneficial. But if the house, after what has occurred, passes this vote in connexion with the order in council, it is not only a virtual but a positive adoption of the order in council with all its requisitions. (!leer, hear.) All dissenters are, by that vote, admitted to par ticipation. It is not left doubtful whether the Roman ca tholics can possibly be admitted or not. The goverument tell you that the terms in the order in council, " Bible," "Testament," or "Scriptures," mean the authorised ver sion; the Roman catholics have an insuperable objection to the use of that version ; that is, neither more nor less than to avow that, under the new system, extended to others in a spirit net only of toleration, but encouragement, the Ro man esthetics will be excluded from all benefit. (Hear.) And what is the prospect held out to them ? Thee at pre sent they are not to partake, and that at some future period, which is left indefinite, their single case, insulated almost iavidiously, is to be taken into the consideration of the house, When is the right time ? I say the right time to do justice is now. (Cheers.) And I never can believe that it is politic to postpone any conception which justice, equity, the spirit of toleration and of freedom, alike imperatively demand. (Hear.) I do not wish to press the matter further. 1 have stated frankly my opinion. I shall not vote with the hon. member for Finsbury. I think the course taken by the government, in all respects save this question, of the participation of the Roman catholics, is not only ratifiable, but prudent and judicious. I think it is infinitely better, in the present state of religious feeling in this coun try, to proceed by order in council than to attempt by act of parliament a uniform system, which would not be in accord ance with the public sentiment, and would be perfectly imposihlc. I think greet good will arise from the course government propose to pursue; but I cannot purchase that goad at the expense of what I consider an act of injustice to my Roman catholic fellow-subjects. (Hear, bear.) I warmly advocated the system of national education in Ireland, where extracts from the scriptures, for the age of both protestants and catholic., were substituted for the scrip tures themselves; sod the late government proposed and carried through parliament a measure with respect to col leges in Ireland where secular education only is given. I do not advocate that system fcr this country; I greatly prefer the course pursued by government ; and I entirely approve of their plan, with the single exception of the exclu sion of the Roman catholic,, whom I think entitled to the favourable and immediate consideration of the govern ment. (Hear, hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL said he was very considerably relieved, after these three nights' debates, from any apprehension be might have entertained an to the course of the discussion. The great objection stated in front of this measure had been, that the state ought not to interfere with education; the various petitions against the measure had declared that principle; the 500 delegates amembled from various parts of the country had laid it down as a rule that the state ought not to assist in educating ; or, ra th er, ought not to educate the people. But what did he find when the matter came under the discussion of the house, and when he had invited attention especially to those objections ? The hon. gentleman who had moved the amendment, and who might be considered as the organ of the congregationdists and the baptists on this occasion—(great laughter)—had in no part of his speech declared that principle, or defended the ground, that the state ought not to educate the people. He (Lrd J. Russell) bad expected to hear the same sort of indictment as was preferred against the clerk of Chatham before Jack Cade : " Here is a fellow whom we have found, who can read and write ; aye, and cast accounts; and, menetrous, we found him set- Ong a boy his copy. Oh, the villain!" (Laughter.) But this charge had hardly been taken up by any one except the hon member for Durham. Every hon. member that lad spoken that evening, th ough each finding certain faults with this measure, had all agreed that it was the duty of parlia ment to assist in the education of the country. (Hear, hear.) Then it was too much to ask the house to inquiet" whether the measure " unduly increased the influence of the crown, invaded the constitutional functions of parliament, and interfered with the religious convictions and civil rights of her Majesty's subjects." Such a resolution as this could only be construed as a censure on government; and yet some hon. members said they would vote for it only for the sake of inquiry, and not at all as blaming government for the measure they had introduced. Bat the hon. member for Durham had de clared himself very strongly against the interference of the house, and in rather ominous words he had alluded to cer tain other consequences which must flow from the adoption of this resolution. Ile also said that the government, if they had dared to do so, would not only have sent the church inspector to the church schools, to make inquiry as to the religious prineriples there taught, but would also have rent him to the dissenting schools to make the same inquiry. What had there been in the conduct of the government to justify this imputation? (Hear, hear.) He (Lord J. Russell) had taken his part, along with others , in freeing the dine ntersfrom disabilities to which they had long been subject. When they found them oppressed by the restraints and dis abilities of the test and corporation acts, they proposed and succeeded against a very adverse party in repea lin g these acts which imposed these heavy disabilities on the dissenters. Finding afterwards that they were obliged to have their marriages celebrated in churches, which was a hardship on their consciences, they carried through both houses of par liament a measure by which they were freed from such obli gations, and which allowed them to contract marriages freely according to the obligations which they could conscien tiously undertake, and according to their own forms and ceremonies. (Hear, hear.) Now, he would ask what' ' the honourable member for Durham Aad done obi t % t i r thT w he i ge s e h n t wm o hl in eut te ru rf igres cre hi si d th hb t e . e h n e teo re fil l mi ig ng io n u tith s opinion d Imn tem them t of it i s (t u cw r h p ue asse enth tl e) dissenters ? There was another ground of opposition teg m to this measure, wherein it was stated that the gu:eati¢eat countenanced error as much as truth; that they were my; pared to go PO far that all distinction between •ruth - sad error would be lost; and that their principles were evidently entirely latitudinarian. When this objection was taken, it was evident that there was a preparation for great opposido g to this measure on the part of many of ts e dissenters, because there was no endowment pr o pos e d for the promotion of Roman catholic schools; and for his part he could not believe that many of those, at., in certain resolutions had stated that they considered that it was a greet hardship and a great injustice that Roman m. tholic a shads should not come with in the,provhions ofthe gram were among those who were strongly opposed to the Nay. nooth grant. He found among the names of thou oli o voted against that grant the name of the hon. member foe Durham, and he could not hut think that he, amoncd °thee. would have objected to that which he considered to h. aid by the state—to that which lie considered to Le a relieit error. lie must, after what had been doted by - tp s hon. baronet the member for Southwark, end the eight Inn, gentleman who had just spoken, enter into so:, f ort p" tsplanathin of their conduct with rev:et to ths motive The former hon. gentleman had entered very much Mto de. tail, end had alluded to some corresponderco which p ad taken place between the government and the Wesley, body. There was one passage made by the pavements i 4 grisly to the letter which was addressed to the For , mumt in cote equence ef an unauthorised communication mods to that body by Lord Aetiley, which he not o n l y omitted to read, but of which he omitted all notice whatever. [Here t h e noble lord read en extract from the letter of the Coramittee of Council clearly showing that though they did not, by the minutes woieh they had drawn up, intimate any inteditu to include the Roman catholic' within the sratisions ag the grant, they did not preclude themselves from (swain into a fuller consideration of the matter, so far as Mo Roman catholic' were concerned, and if they thought proper of including them in the provisions of the grant. ThAclrrge, continued the noble lord, freed them altogether from the charge which keel been made against them of endcavoun4' to persuade the dissenters into the belief that no aid Ida be given to Roman catholic schools. The epee ch which vu lost spoken made it nicessary for him to recall to the wool tion of the house the occurrences of the year 1839. They proposed at the commencement of that year that there should be model schools, and when the plan was framed, he particularly urged that the Roman catholics should rot be excluded; and words to this tffect were inserted, ths: itt regard to the Roman catholic pupils the Damn seniors of the bible may be used. These wore. excited great alum and opposition in the country ; and it was the 'pinion of the government that the only course to be adopted vas t o withdraw the motion as uue which was not likely to meet with the approbation of the people. But if he recol lected rightly, no one was so strong in oppcoition to the pro position which was made with respect to:he Dinar version of the bible as the right hon. gentleman who last addressed the house. They on the oa.i.c ground. alandoned the in tention now, however desirous tilt sr may be to extsnd II is grant to Rogan catholic schools, because they Li bred that it would be opposed by the people of this country, an pref.. resce to giving up all hope of aaristing education altogether. That consideration shut the Roman catholic, titans the years 1839, 1810, and when the Whigs were in office, but it likewise shut them out in the several years from 1041 Ito 1816, when the right honourable gentli man ism in the committee of council. (Cheers.) It did stern to him that the right honousable gentleman acted on the rule which was laid down in the years Ittls or, l islo .os else, if he thought that it was a great injustice that henna cutholies should be etcluded, why did he not pre, the matter en the committee of council during that pemod? (Cheers.) Instead of that, the idea was never suggested to the house, and the question was never in any shape brought before them. Their opinion was, that the passibility of aiding education would be very much endangered by sigh a preposition, and they therefore thought that some delay should be interposed before the Roman catholic wheals should be introduced into the system. How stood the matter now? The committee of council had declared to the Wesley's, and the Roman catholic", that they should be mewed a any future period to consider the matter, and to admit ths Roman cathohcs. It was desirable that in 1846 they should be prepared to change the rule, but they added this addl. banal element of difficulty to those which they had before to contend with. It. mast say that he; did believe, me Mg the opposition they had to encounter, that if they had revised th, it proposition of 1839, or if they had made a wino rate provision in the menths of December or February lad for the }UMW catholic schools, that they should have beis unable to carry the vote they now proposed. (Cheers.) Hs ' had seen in the sours° of this debate a great exhibitiona liberality, and had noticed in more than one instanee a Mug feeling on the part of certain parties that the Romaucatholies btih ,s ey tio to be ttha ought labo re u i re ie L . unde o r n ce e rtain m.de lia of hi r liti li es ef , from n uld be which schools similar to the national schools in Ireland. Iles attempt was once made in Liverpool, and the mestants were educated in one department and the ettkolies is another. The school was conducted with great harmony sod catholic population. Lord Stanley it was that introduced with great advantage to the poorer perms of the Ronan the system into Ireland. And when he was no doubt the best authority on the subject, Le was asked his opinion as the es:xi:fin:Lent being made here, he said that though the was entirely unfit for Ireland. The popular opini m system was one which was fit to be introduced in Ireland, it England was against the system, and the teaching seas at length discontinued, and the school was put under a different ripme. They had this year, also, an instance of the meat unwillingness of the people of this country tr relieve the Roman catholic*. There was a bill brought in the other day, to relieve the Roman catholics from penal* which, as it appeared to him, it was quite obvtam ought not to be imposed on them, and against the re newel of which, no decent argument could be used. There were parts of the bill which, in his mind, were questionable, but they could be expunged, w altered in committee. The right hon. baronet, the member for Tamworth, spoke in favour of going into conamitteem that bill, and so did the noble lord the member for hilts Lynn, and the whole of the members of the govemmeat voted in favour of it, yet notwithstanding the second reader having been carried by only a majority of 3, there was s majority of 38 against going into committee on it. (Chews train the opponents of the vote.) 116 voted in the minority on that occasion, and in the majority on the first occults. The right hon. member for Dorchester was not there on list hat occasion. Sir J. GRAHAM.—I win here on every other occasion. Lord .1. RUSSELL (continuing) inuing).—lle was not there, and if he had been, he would have seen how strong the feeling d the house had been nn the subject, and how many member, expressed their great unwillingness to go into committees such it hill, and how very difficu't it would have been to per 'wide them to give any further concession to the Ream cathulirs. All ha would say was that with such prod befor.' them it was clear that the minutes which they made in 1839 should not be altered in 1840. He did Oct agree with ti.e right bon. member for Dorchester that there ins any reason why the Roman catholic, should be included ie this vote, and it was far more likely that if they were is. eluded in the next or any other vote that the h'sii-e or Ms country would agree to it. He was not quite sure either then, Roman catholic bishops would sanction the terms of the nee Ile knew that many of the Roman catholic, of Inlaid objected to it. These, therefore, being the reasons whin actuated the government, it became necessary to preen the question in order carefully to consider any minutes epos which sid could be granted; but he (Lord J. Ruseell)entinly versed with his noble friend the member for the Wei Riding (Lord Morpeth), and with his noht bon. Mesa° the head of the Home Department (Sir George Grey). tin thee could not have any permanont system without excluding the Roman catholics. But the right hon. Inroad MP site (Sir James Graham) and many other hon, umbel who had spoken in the course of this debate nese& to have forgotten that the government was not now pro- posing a permanent scheme of education. They merely pre posed to give further aid, in order to the improvement of the schools. In 1839 they had introduced a very great altentee in the matter of education, and that alteration was the sair tion of a system of inspection of the schools reorient tbs, aid of public money. Before that time, the votes grans by parliament were disposed of under the authority, and by the decision of the Treasury, and many sums of money bed been given to schools, which, after a few years had falks into decay, and the money bestowed upon them had bee completely thrown away. He believed, however, that ne system of inspection had prevented this, and Lad been mat useful to the schools. According to the present eon, it was proposed that the teaching by monitors alg assistant teachers should be improved, sad that thi situation of schoolmasters should be bettered; but it did set follow that because this was done, the measure we bs permanent, still lees was it &complete system. (lieu, her.) Ile, however, trusted that as the vote came to be taken yele after near eventually mine national agreemen t would e etrectid on this subject, than none more important could II brought under the notice of the legislature. (lien, w s i ) , Seeing the general, the almost univenal opinion of house, that education ought to be sided by the nat e, :i trusted that the opinion of the country would in the , • enable them to bnng in a bill which would bring the ene tion under the consideration , not only of tide. but 01 d• other house of parliament. (Hear, hear.) But had chi been wrong in not introducing a bill on then sent occasion ? The variety of opinions which been expressed on this subject eonfumed him in !!,' conviction that they had done right in net introdernegf: question by a bill, for let those who objected recollect or, if it had been proposed to grant 160 , 0001 . or 240,0001. eat • the consolidated fund, by a bill, it would pat it o ut of SIP power, except with the consent of the ether hoeseal went, to alter the ayatem that would be thus That had been the ease with respect to the grant to Net nooth, which used to be an annual vote, but which, nos:j act of parliament, was established in a manner which not be altered except by the consent of both bane% '7l (Lord J. Russell's) own opinion was, that the sitnabolls• the question of general education was not ripe fbr 1841 12 proceeding. After nearly 50 years' experience annual votes to Maynooth, the right hon. baronet out (Sir R. Peel) proposed a bill to make that permanent; he (Lord J. Russell) had cordially 'OPT: that bill, because he thought the time had come when sr' =anent system, with regard to the education of the . catholic priesthood, might be eatabliahed in Ireland, P: the present question, like many others, took a long eltaat; deliberation, in ripening, and in discerning, bath house and in the country. He remembered a questios it would hardly have been thought could have Fore:: much keenness of contention - ] t to the esto.f., mint of county courts. When ?dr. Canning the noe. of this house, the late Lord Althorp brought fonnud * a _ subject .. in several euceceding years, and endeneoneedato oilt bludi county courts, before which questions of O."