The Express. — London, England, 1848-03-21 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMEN r. HOUSE OF LORDS.—MONDAY, MARCH' The Lazo CnaIC.LLOR took his seat at 5 o'clock. PUBLIC BUSINESS. FEW READINCL—Actions at Lan (Married Women) Bill. NEW PEER. Tie:matt RAIDINOR, having been introduced by Viscount Dembermere and V iscount Bertsford took the usual oaths and sibeeribed the parliament's - 7 roll. ENCUMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND) BILL. The LORD CHANCELLOR postponed until tomorrow this day) the committee on the Been mbered Estates (Ireland) ill, when he should Sete his amendments, in order to have them printed, taking the discussion on a future stage. BIRTH OF A PRINCESS. . The Marquis of LANSDOWNE.—My lords, I have been engaged on a committee, otherwise I should, at the very first nosenent of the meeting of the house, have asked rare I need your lord ships' cnicurnace in a proceeding of which I am sot have given notice, because it is one which will isomma , cl the unanimous assent of your lordshipe—namely , an address to her additionpreau of our satisfaction in is having bad an to her tamily, in the birth of a princess —(hear, hear)—and being perfectly safe and well under these circumstance& (Hear, hear.) At all times, my lards, when an occurrence of this sort has taken place, there has been an expression of satisfaction on the part of this house ; and no argument, therefore, is neeemary to induce your lordships to adopt this address. (Hear, hear.) But I Mill say, my lords, that I believe there never was a moment in which the expression of satisfaction in anything which erineerna the weliare of her Majesty, and her connexion with the interests of this country, would command more universal aympathy and warm feeling throughout the country than at the moment at which 1 am now addressing your lordships. (Cheers.) I beg leave, my lords, to move that an hu mble address tio presented to her Majesty to congratulate her Ma jesty on the birth of another princess, and to assurehappi- her Mesty that the hi ghest addition to her Majes the Rouse of Lords. (Cheep.) The address was then agreed to. Their lordships then adjourned at half-put five o'clock. SOUSE OF COMMONS. —MONDAY, MARCH 20. The Senarotz took the chair at 4 o'clock. PRIVATE IIEoLNERS. dr.COND R EADlNO.—Lelahman's Estate (Govan Glebe FeUi 2 g: IMIL--( Fur swam of railway ha* we hallwa liminess.) BE WDL EY ELECTION. Mr. WRIGHT SON brought up the report of the Bewd ky Election Committee, stating that Mr. Thomaa James Ireland had net been duly elected, and that the said election was void ; and that the said Mr. Ireland had been guilty of bribery, bat sot of his own knowledge. DUNDALK ELECTION. Lord VANE brought up the report of the Dundalk Election Committee. stating that Mr. M•Tavish bad sot bens, but that Mr. Tomas M'Cullagh had been, duly e LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND) BILL. Sir W. SOMERVILLE stated (in reply to Mr. Sartu sits, who inquired if the right hen. gentleman would proceed with this bill before Easter) that he could not answer the Ipestion until next Monday, for which day the bill was fixed lir a second reading. WINDOW-BREAKING DURING RIOTS. Sir W. CLAY asked the right hon. the Home Secretary whether in consequence of the explanation r ecentl y g iven by the 'Attorney-General on the state of the law as to remedies against the hundred or county for injury done to property by riotous assemblies ' it be the intention of her Majesty's g overnment to introduce any measure for the amendment of the law in that particular ) Sir G. GREY w said he as advisNl that no declaratory act was necessary, and that the law as ■ it now stood was char sad unambiguous. The remedy given by 37 Geo. 111.. c. 19, was taken away because actions were frequently . brought without just grounds—the windows being in some instances broken by the parties themselves. The principle of the pre sent law was that no remedy be gi% en unless the riot amounted to such a degree of violence as indicated demo- Mien Sir W. CLAY, in consequence of the answer of the right boo. baronet, expressed his intention of moving fur leave to bring in a bill to amend the law in that particular. (Hear.) VAN DIEMEN'S LAND AND NORFOLK ISLAND. Mr. BOUVERIE sated whether anythiag would be done to relieve Van Diemen's Land from the evils arising out of the transmission of convicts thereto from Norfolk Island ? • plethora of labour was thus created in Van Diemen's Land, while there was a want of it in New South Wales. Mr. HAWES said he could scarcely answer the question without entering into lengthy details, but in the course of a few days he expected to lay upon the table papers in re ference to this subject, which would give the hon. member the fullest information. To these papers he must, therefore, rafir the has. m. tuber. SCOTCH UNIVERSITIES. Mr. COWAN inquired whether it was the intention of the Lord Advocate again to bring forward the bill be had for merly introduced to put an end to an anomaly of the law in Scotland, on ithichmuch litigation had recently taken place, in respect to the requirement that all professors at the um mere:ties in Scotland should be members of the established church in Scotland. The LORD ADVOCATE replied that it was his inten tion to re-introduce the bill alluded to as soon as the state of pablic business held out to him a promise that he could carry it through the house. JEWISH DISABILITIES BILL. Sir B. HALL remarked, that there were two orders of the day standing in the paper of to-day—one relating to Chrx lien., viz, the bill for establishing diplomatic relations with Rome, and the other relating to Jews. Which of these two measures was it intended first to proceed with ? Lord J RUSSELL replied that be intended first to take the Jewish Disabilities Bill. APPOINTMENTS OF OFFICE. Mr. HUME said, that a few days since, be had brought forward • motion on the subject of appointments to office pending the inquiries now proceeding before committees of that house. He had withdrawn that motion until the noble lord atthe head of the government was in his place. He wished now to know from the noble lord, whether the go. vernment had come to any determination, that in all the appointment" they might make, such appointments would be subject to such alterations and mductions of salary ay might be thought necessary on a review either by a commit tee or by the government itself! He should be glad to have some assurance given by the noble lord on the subject. Lord J. RUSSELL replied that he had no difficulty in saying that so long as any inquiries were pending, appoint ments ought to be made generally subject to any provisions which parliament might make for the reduction of the sala ries or emoluments of euch appointments. At the same time he supposed, of course, that parliament would consider the cues where gentlemen gave up private professional pur suits, or other places of emolument, to take a public office, and that some excptMn would be made in those caws. Mr. HUME said, that under the general assurance from ;Li !"e .he should not prose the motion on the subject of which he had given nit'" . .': BIRTH OF A PRINCESS.—ADDRESS TO THE QUEEN. Lord J. RUSSELL said, be rose to make a motion which he was sure would not require any argument from him to induce the house at once to acqu.esce in. The feelings of loyalty and attachment which *listed, not only in that house, but throughout the country, towards her Majesty, would, he was confident, induce the house to accede cor dially to an address to congratulate her Majesty on an occa sion which was calculated to add to her Majesty's domestic happiness. (Hear, hear.) The strict accordance to the coneitution, which her Majesty had always shown in her poly ical conduct, and the bright ex imple she had given to all her people in the relations of domestic life, must ever insure to her the affectionate attachment of the nation and, therefore, without saying one word more, he would move, that an humble address be presented to her Majesty to congratulate her Majesty on the birth of another princess, and to assure her Majesty that every addition to her Majes ty's domestic comfort and happiness affords the highest satisfaction to her faithful commons. (Loud cheers.) Sir R PEEL said that, as he had on former occasions, when holding office under the crown, proposed votes of a similar nature to that which the noble lord had just proposed, he (Sir R. Peel) had great pleasure in seconding the proposition which the Roble lord. as first minister of the mown, had submitted to the coneideration of the home. He (Sir R. Peel) cordially joined with the noble lord (and in doing so he was stare he expressed the unanimous teeing. of the posse)—(ekteen)—in wishing a long and happy reign to her Majesty, and in the hope that the throne of these realms might continue in the lice of her descendants. (Cheers.) He earnestly hoped that, under the favour of divine provi dence, every blessing might attend her Majesty, and he was sure every one would feel that this vote wee due to the sovereign for her earnest and constitutional zeal to promote the welfare of her subjects in her political character, and due also to her Majesty for the admirable example in every relation of domestic life which she had ever set to her people. (Loud cheers.) Tne address was agreed to twos. cots., and, on the motion of Lord Jowls ainisaLL, was ordered to be presented to her Majesty by such members of the house as were of her Ma jesty's most honourable privy council. EXPENDITURE OF THE WOODS AND FORESTS. Lord DUNCAN inquired from the Right Hon. the Chan- teller of the Exchequer whether it was his intention to oppose the motion of which he (Lord Duncan) had given notice, for a select committee to inquire into the expenditure and management of the woods, forests, and other property and revenues of the crown ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that at present it was his intention not to assent to the appointment of such a committee, because the expenditure of the de partment of woods and forests was included in the matters referred to the select committee on the miscellaneous esti- rates. WAYS AND MEANS—INCOME TAX. "CELLOE of the EXCHEQUER moved the The Lai._ "wing Ow' —unmittee of enter of the day for rem.' war and means. rt be now received , On the question that the rep o Mr. MACGREGOR rose to move, mintiest to his notice, " That it is just and expedient to extend to Ireland, durinin g the two ran ending 6th April, 1661, the same rates of come tax, excise duties, window duties, and other armed taus, which shell be at the same time levied in Great Britain." Mr. GOULIIURN rue to order : The motion of the hon. homer, who was not essutiant with the forms of the home, scald only be made in • committee of the whole lows, and Miarefere he wu tare the hon. gentleman would forgive hint fee sow interr'ptindhim, and easing him enter ing en • long diaeusion which could a chieve no practical ehrict, (Hear, hear.) Mr. BERNAL then breeght ap the report, and on the quack= that it be agreed to being put, Mr. l ivellgacid , that Or the distinct mazer in which I 1 THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EUNING, MARCH 21, 1848. the holies had protease= its approbation of the proposition that the income tax should be continued for three years, it was not his intention to offer any further objection at the present time; but he hoped to be allowed now to suggest that when the bill, ht would be founded oa these resolu tions, was brought in, it should be referred to a select eammittee up stairs, in order to the re moval, if possible, of the grass and glaring evils which arose from the mode in which the um was levied. Sir R. H. INOLIS intimated, that on a future stage, he should take an opportunity of drawing the attention of the house to the expediency the tax at a certain point. o f commenting the imposition of Mr. SLANEY thought that some improvement might be made on the mode in which the tax was imposed an d co l- lected, and he hoped that the government would give an ear to the suggestion made by the hommember for Montrose. Sir D. L. EVANS begged to add his humble en treaties to her Majesty's government to yield to the sugges tionjust made. ar:.:l enciffeetOur to Modify_the ter, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged to say one word on behalf of himself and the government. lie aud they had given their best attention to the subject, and I though there was something plausible in some of the modifi cations which had been suggested, yet after full considers- non he felt satisfied it was impossible to device any plan that would not leave injustice still more gross and unbearable than that which now existed under the present mode. He and his noble friend were, however, perfectly ready to con eider any plan which any.hon. gentleman might suggest; but at present all he could say was that no . plan had yet been suggested or proposed which, on examining the details, had not proved more objectionable than that which at all dam and in all countries where an income tax was levied hed been adopted. Dr. BOWRING was of opinion that unless some great modifications were made it would be impossible to collect the tax without such a resistance as would be extremely incon venient. The right hon. baronet had not answered the question put by the hon, member for Montrose, and there- I tore he (Dr. Burring) asked whether the right. hon. baronet would consent to refer the bill to a select committee, to gether with the petitions which had been presented sugges ting various changes ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had understood that the question had been reserved to a future opportunity. All he could say at present was that he could not consent to !eke the bill to a select committee. Mr. COBDEN should not have risen but for the last part of the speech of the right hon. baronet, when he seed 'some what with emphasis that the income tax was levied in this country in the same way as in other countries. Now a re mark bad been made the other night by the hon. member for Glasgow (Mr. &Gregor) that in no other country but this was an income tax levied. This was well founded, for though in France and other countries there was a property tax, and a heavy amount of direct taxation, still in no other country but thus was a tax levied upon the profits of trade or prolusion.. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed that he had made the statement on the authority of the hon. member himself, who had said that in South Carolina, in the United States, an income tax was levied for the pur pose of the state on profits resulting from trades and pro les:item. (Hear, hear.) Mr. IiORSMAN said that the reference of the bill to a select committee was, as he understood, objected to because nu plan had been suggested that would not leave the ano malies of the law still more glaring than under the existing system. In this respect, however, the government was at direct issue with the public at large, aud he thought also with a majority of the house. In many districts the feeling was universal that some modification might be adopted ; and therefore he thought, whatever might be the opinion. , of the government, in defirence to the public a committee of inquiry ought to be granted. Mr. M'GREGOR explained that when he stated the other night that no other country levied an income tax, he meant to confine his remark to great states and nations. It was true that in South Carolina an income tax was levied for local purposes, and in the free town of Frankfort the senate had power to levy an income tax when the revenue from ordinary sources was insufficient to meet the necessary ex penditure. A similar law prevailed in the free towns of Hamburg, Bremen, and Lubeck ; but these were the only places in which a tax on profits was levied. He regretted that the government had not taken the tax for one year only, in order to give time to enter more generally into the whole question of taxation. He was aware that the country was strongly opposed to the tax, but still he was of opinion that it could be collected with the must perfeet Mr. THELAWNY supported the decision to which the house had come, though he was aware his votes on the question had not given satisfaction to his constituents. Lord J. RUSSELL said he would cot discuss the question as to whether or nut the modifications ought to be considered by a Beira committee, because that matter would come under couaideration on a future day. The lion. member for Cockermuuth (Mr. Herrman) bed said that the disapproba tion of the public to the present mode of levying the tar was universal. He (Lord J. Russell) thou ht it would be equally so if the plan of the lion. member himself was adopted. Ur. S. CRAWFORD protested, in the mane of his con stituents, against the continuance of the tax in its present terns. They thought it ought to be remodelled and rendered less oppressive and inquisitorial in its cliaracter. The resolutions were then agreed to, and a bill founded thereon vas ordered to be brought in. On the motion that the order of the day for a committee of supply be read, Lord DUNCAN repeated the question he had put on the subject of the expenditure and management of the depart ment of Woods and Forests. He had referred to the order appointing the committee on the miscellaneous estimates, and dui nu t find that the Woods and Forests were included in the matters referred. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the expenditure in relation to the royal parks, palaces, and gardens was included. Atter a few words from Dr. BOMBING and the CHANCEL- Wit of the EXCURat;EX in explanation, Lord DUNCAN intimated his intention to bring forward his motion on Friday next, on going into a committee of supply. SUPPLY.—NAVY ESTIMATES. The house then went into a committee of supply, Mr. Bernal in the chair, Mr. WARD rose to bring forward the navy estimates. The hon. member said the question I have to submit to the considersion of the committee turns upon one poi t which the select committee upon the navy estimates has properly refused to investigate—namely, the general policy of those estimates which it is the peculiar attribute of the crown and parliament to deal with. It is impossible for me to state the question as to the number of men to be voted for the service of the year 18489 without raising other questions involving • large expenditure of money, and though this is the case I will, with the indulgence of the commit;ec, endeavour studiously to separate the two considerations. The hon. member for Montrose, with a manliness and candour for which I feel grateful to him, has told me that he re gards the question of the number of men to be voted as the root of the evil. My hon. friend is right, for if we have more men we must have more ships; more building materials, larger building establishments and steam factories end a larger Ord establishment to superintend the additional expenditure. I go with my hon. friend entirely in this ; I think the broad question is, how are we to dad with the expenditure which has grown up within the last few pen? Either we are wrong or we are right in the course of policy . which has been pursued by parliament during the last six years. if we are wrong, the sooner that is proud the better, and then let parliament and the country retrace their steps; but if we are right, then I hope nobody will withhold or begrudge the means to gain the object in view. There cannot be a wider difference of opinion this exists in this matter between my honourable friends and cot tielf. What they blame, I glory in; what they call a profligate expenditure, I call a wise and necessary one, and on this matter I shall to-night ail for the decision of the committee. I speak more on the question of principle—not on details. No doubt many mistakes have been committed, and that much money might have been better spent if the.e had been more time for consideration. But to-night I have to deal simply with the general princi ples of that expenditure —I will show what it has effected— what fruits it has already produced what savings may be anticipated—what outlay still remains to be incurred—and it will then be :or parliament and the country to pronounce an opinion upon the policy which has hitherto been pursued. If my hon. friend (Mr. Hume) can reduce the number of men by 10,000, or 8,000, or 7,000 safely, then, I say, there never was a time when that reduction was mere loudly called for. But the question is, are we right or wroeg in proposing to the House of Commons a vote of 1,425,3081., to cover the expenses of an establishment consist ing of 27,500 seamen,2,ooo boys, and 13,500 marines, making In all • naval force of 43,000 strong ? First, then, how are we to bring thin matter to a test ? There has been on divi- MOll on this point of the navy estimates for the last 20 years, with one exception. The standard has always been varying, and yet parliament and the country has always concurred in increasing the expenditure. The lowest vote ever taken was for 19,000 men.in the year 1817 ; and I find Vat. without any ap pal ent eats- thisjwas raised in 1823 to 2.5,000 men. In 1824 5 it was 29,000, and from 1826 to 1830 it was 27,000. In 183.5-6 the vote was 26,500, in 1836-7 it was 33,000 men, in 11140.1 it was 39,000, and in 1841-2 it was 43,000, just the number now proposed. In general net a single voice has ever been raised against this increase. I may be told that political causes can be assigned for this, and that in those years there were disturbances of the peace of Europe, but that reductions took plate when tranquillity was re stored. I find that, in 1843-4, the force was 39,000 men, and this, in 1844-5, was reduced to 36,000. But 36,000 men was taken as the standard of a proper peace establishment by the right hon. baronet opposite (Sir R. Peel), and by the right hon. baronet the member for Ripon (Sir J. Graham), thus exceeding, by 10,000 men the standard of 1835. The consequence appears to have been that a single year's experience was sufficient to prove le them the inadequacy of this vote ; and in 1845 and 46, having raised in the previous year the force to 36,000, they increased it, in a time of profound peace, to 40,000 ; for proposed in 1846 and 47, an estimate for 40,000 men. We bare cegieilliv inns.". a •'••.. 500 tairloes, and atief propose an 'addition of 300, making the sum total 43,000. Now, why has there been, on the pert ed this house, this constant and unvarying sequiselonne ht the increase of the navel estimates? There is no stand I love of taxation in the country. (Hear.) Nobody likes being taxed for a useless expenditure. But there has been a very general conviction of the fact that all power is relative in proportion to the powers by which it is surrounded; that it a a fluctuating and not a fixed element in the adeeletieas of nations; that a cannot stand still while all others are progressing ' without the position which it formerly held. _ And of ell the pod in which a nation an be placed, the molt perilous which I can conceive, and the least to be desired for a country like this, is to have the name of being at once wealthy sad weak—(hear)—to have • cam meree spreading itself over *Very sea, and a navvy unable to afford that 00016111109 plloooooe -40 sign ip bergs made -------------- the depete of the world, and yet no sufficient military organi sation• for their defence. (Hea r, hoar.) I know my bon. friend behind me (Mr. Cobden) will tell me of the softening influence of free trade, of its tendency to link nations into one. (Cheers.) That may be very well a hundred peen hence; but where is there an instance of two countries being thus united at the present time, or where is there the res pect of ? (Hear, hear.) Where is the tan to which a practical and distinguished man like the hon. memberlfor the West Riding can point, as a just ground for decreasing the naval defences of this country ? Can be urea it nra tae ground that, fifty years hence, we may have !Vest commer cial relations springing up with countries with which we are at prevent connected by no commercial ties ? Then I am told, by men too of great authority, that we are to look to the spread of democratic institutions and the growth of popular influence, as n security for peace. I, of course, cannot look into futurity; but, looking to the put, I find the moot ,) .emocratic states have been the most aellfiflous and tt.e moat warlike. (Cheers.) We have all read, Hiller school days, of the wall of the ancient re publics of Carthage and Rome, which rival those that the most despotic monarchies have carried on. (Hear, hear.) And if we come to modern times, we find the principle of lio nization is one not entirely strange to popular governments. (Hear, hear.) I recollect the annexation of Teen ,• I knew the causes of the war between the United States and Mexico; and I must say these °rents are not such as to inapire me with any very implicit faith in the morality or increas ing moderation of the purest democracies. Man is man, let him live under what constitution he may please, and. the only security for a great and wealthy community like this is, to rely on its own resources and its own means of defence, to abstain frem aggression, to set a good example to the world, but not to trust in any vain utopian theories. (Cheers.) The question of our national independence inseparably connected with that of our na tional defence. (Hear.) That is the principle upon which the parliament of this country, since 1815, has uniformly acted ; and I say it is a good, wholesome, practical English maxim ; it is worth a bushel of theories as to what may or what may never happen in this world , a nd is the only prin ciple upon which the house can proved. (Hear.) If Ige back to the defence committee of 1817, what do I find ? Lord Castlereagh was examined before that committee, and he was asked what, in his opinion, was the best policy for this country to pursue with regard to its naval defences. Hs said he conceived that policy to be, to keep up a navy equal at least to those of arty two powers that could possibly combine against us, (Hear, hear.) And the finance committee of that day began its report with these words :—" Esteeming the naval superiority of this country as the principle on which its external power, its internal safety, and its general pros perity depend, your committee are of opinion that the sense which they entertain of the neeereaty of economy cannot, with a due regard to the intermits of the state, be allowed to interfere with the support of such a maritime force as may be deemed necessary in time of peace,"— Mr. HUME.— Hear, hear as may be deemed nes id e rWA " RD.—But hear the rest—" an may be deemed necessary in time of peace, with • view to preparation for its adequate defence in time of war. (Hear, hear.) And as the naval expenditure in time of peace is principally connected with preparation for periods of future emergency, there is no branch of the public service in which an ill-judged public economy might be attended with more lamentable effects." (Hear.) I say that is very wholesome advice. But if my hon. friend (Mr. Hume) should say that that refers to 18,000 men, i say it refers also to • state of the world quite different to that which we see now, and that, in acting upon the same prin ciple, we are bound to look at the relative state of the seraa powers twenty years later. (Hear.) The next great and marked epoch in the history of our naval expenditure was that 'riven commenced when the right hon. baronet the member for Tamworth was in power, in 1844. He had the good fortune to inspire the hon. member for Montrose, and all the world beside', with the fullest confidence in his pacific intentions, his mode ration, and his love of economy. (Ileac.) I believe there never were two men more earnestly de irous of preserving peace than the right bon. baronet and Lord Aber deen. Their measures wi-re crowned with the most com plete success ; but what did they make the basis of that pee citic policy? A very large increase in our awn means of self defence. (Hear, hear.) And the right bon. baronet the member for Ripon Graham), the great naval econo mist of 1834, was a member of that administration; he con- , curred in all the great measures of policy which they pro posed ; and he concurred , consequently, in the policy of fixing, in a time of profound peace, the establiehment of 1 40,000 men as the proper peace ektabllehment of 1844. He concurred, however large the estimate. of that year were in comparison with his own, in the supplementary e etimate of 885,0001. sanctioned by the Treaaury as an addition to the estimates of that year, for the purpose of hurry ing on the preparation of our steam navy, and the works connected with it. But it is from this very period, when we had three men of great sagacity and tried experience in public affair* presiding over the destinies of the country, from this period of 1844 dates every one of those expenses of which my hon. friend behind me (Mr. Hume) now complains. There was then a very large increase in all the items of naval expenditure. The vote for men, in 1834, wan 958,7611. ; in 1845, it was 1,328,0531. The vote for wages in 1831 was U 8,0121.; is 184.5 is was 649,1041. • fee naval stores, in 1834,499,0001. ; in 1845. 1,273,7891., making, with the supplementary estimate of 185,0001., nearly a mil lion and a half. Ann in the next year this item amounted to 1,694,152/. Don't talk to me - then, of the expen diture going on now, Is if it had originated in the last few yi are. Look back to its source, to the men from whom it originated, and ask yourselves whether it arose from any wanton or wicked extravagance on their part—from any idea of increasing the war patronage of the government; for all these motives are assigned at the present day. Ask yourselves this, and be consistent ; at all events, those of you who were here before, and heard these estimates read, diecussed, and carried, without a whimper of discontent, ought not now to turn back, and because the tide has turned, and h cause it requires &little moral courage to tell theme truths to your constituents—say to those in power : " This is a policy for which you are responsible. and which we require to be accounted for at your hands." Such a course, sir, I say is unjust. (Hear, hear.) Then all the other items had been increased in the game way. I see, in 1834, we had in the yards 11,000 loads of timber, and 27,000 in 1845. In 1834, we hsd 600 tons of copper; in 1845, 1,158. All thee thine' hang together. It is impossible to increase one without the other. If you make up your minds to a certain estimate, you must deal with it as a system, and work upon that system. Was it, then, a wanton extrava gance on the part of the late government, which induced them to embark in this career; or did an overwhelming ne cessity compel them to take the course they did? The hon. member for Southwark (Sir W. Moleewortb) has congratu lated the right hon. baronet the member fur Ripon (Sir J. Graham) on his modest estimates for 1831, of four or four and a-half millioaa ; but the last estimates of the late go. vernment were the largest of any year. And I confess honour the right hon. baronet's sagacity for this. I conceive him to have acted on the best and most unassailable grounds. He saw steam navies growing up all around him ; he looked at the steam naves of France, of Russia, of the United States; he saw a formidable power coming into existence, with which the old sailing vessels were wholly unable to compete and he concurred in these changes which time had made in dispensable, and which other countries had carried out. This is, in fact, the only measure of power that can be takes. What others do we must do also; we must keep our or lose our superiority ; and if we make up our minds to keep our pace, we must take the means by which to accomp ish the object. (Hear, hear.) But the hon. member for South. work has said that the United States, with a trade as exten sive as ours, visiting the very ports which we visit, meeting vs in Chins, and competing with us everywhere, has but a very small navy to protect that trade. 13ut he eget,' that England is a great colonial as well as a great commercial power ; he forgets what the noble lord at the heed of the government said the other night: that hitherto, at all events, the colonies of England have been esteemed by all parties one great element of its prosperity. The consequence is, that we need everywhere naval stations, and the force employed upon them must assume a very different character from that of the United States, which have not an acre of land in their ion beyond their own well-concert rated territory. hat is the reason of the multiplicity of our stations, and of our forces, scattered over the whole habitable globe. That is the reason why, in each of those stations, we are forced to keep up something like a parity of power with the nations with whom we may come in contact. The house will probably recollect all the circumstances under which the increase in the navy estimates of 1844 took plane. There was a boundary dispute with the United States, which was settled in 1840, but until it was seta , d, it was quite indis pensable that we should maintain a force in the Pacific at least equal to Vein. Another great power was threatening to attack our commerce in every quart , r of the globe, the moment hostilities broke out; of this there was no actual probability ; but it was an emergency for which provision must necessarily be made. Another reason for the change at that time was the false economy which had prevailed for a series of years, in not maintaining a sufficient establish ment in the dock-s arde—of living upon yeast capital, as I may say—of draii.ing the yards of timber, canvas hemp, and all the essential uncles of naval stores ; so that, had any sudden aggression occurred, England actually at one time had not the mesas of equipping a fleet. (Hear.) I have been curious to see what was the reduction of articles during *me yeari of economy. In 1832, before the reign of teen- , away began, we had in the yards 64,000 loads of shipbuilding timber ; that WU reduced to 46,000 loads on the 31st Dec., , 1839 ; 7,800 tons of hemp_ were reduced, by nearly one I half, to 4,600 tons; 36,000 bolts of canvas, to 17,000 ; 18 sets of rigging for fi rst and second-rates to 1; 40 seta for third and fourth rates to 5 and 2 respectively ; altogether 101 sets of rigging were reduced to 36. There was a simi lar reduction in sail yards, cables, and other articles; in fact, the stores had been allowed to dwindle away, by eel making . purchases each year equal to the quantity con sumed ; in short, you had been living on your capital, es that before the commencement of the Syrian war, I believe, if any great emergency had occurred, you wotsli have found it difficult to fittout an ordinary set. Sota SW the effect of what the right hon. baronet well dolomite& in 1843 a spurious and bastard economy. Such ea eft nomy would not do for any nation permanently to it might do to hawk about, but not for a system of (Hear, hear.) Very different was the principle whisi the government acted en in 1844, and which we found adopted and established with the concurrence of the late government and the country in 1846. Was that a system lightly to be altered ? It was, no doubt, in oar power to have disclaimed all connexion ; to bays claimed creditwith the country for economy, while pursuing a sys tem worse than extravagance—to have repudiated the works undertaken by the Late government, or have left them unfinished. We might, had we been so disposed, have taken credit with the constituencies of large towns for stop ping a ruinous expenditure. (Hear.) But that would have been a most unwise and unworthy course foe any govern ment ; it wonld ban been attended with minas cones titaness to the country, and would have robbed it of the benefit of all the outlay that had been already made, which was very considerable. In 1846, in the first estimates 1 brought forward . I declared that that was not the course that government meant to adopt, and that no reduction lomat be looked for until the works which we found com menced bad been completed. The reasons were these. A very large expenditure had been carried on in all our prin cipal yardii great works Tore progress et Wodwich, Chathani, Portsmouth :tan Sheerness. lir * 771 1 . 4 - tare am ered them u-elea, and the expense To have stopped could not have been replaced ; they would have been left to the country a monument of party trickery and national dis grace. (Hear.) We took the right course in resolving to complete what we found they had begun; we have carried on these works systematically and vigorously up to the pre sent time; we ask the house to carry them on another year ; and then we may legitimately expect to pause. My hon. friend will ask what benefit has the country derived from this expenditure. I believe we are now on the very point of reaping those benefits ; I believe there will be a very large reduction in the estimates of 1849- 60, not by abndoning, but by completing, this great undertaking—by persevering in the system which we found begun. This v 6 we take the larneat vote evet taken for new works, 683,6011. Part of that increase is apparent, and not real, a corresponding reduction having been made upon other works ; but I admit it is a large item. The conse quence is, that in 1849-50 we can nadertake to ask for • vote of only 473,0001., making a saving on this head alone of 213,6431. In coming , to this conclusion we give a due regard to the recent determination of the house on the proposal for increasing the income tax. When that proposal war made it was intended to have pushed on some of those works, which must now be spread over a larger number of years, with greater rapidity. The house has deemed it inexpedient to give the means by which alone that can be accomplished ; to its decision we must bow, though it will prolong the expenditure. I should have thought it greater econom to have finished what we ba begun, and have h a d the benefit of it at one; bu t it is perfectly legitimate for the house to force its own conclusions on the government, and by those conclusions we must abide. The main reason why we shall be able to make a reduction of 213,0001. next year ill this: our great object has been to give the country, as soon as possible, some tangible, positive re sult of the expenditure already incurred; consequently, we have devoted ourselves during the put two years to finish ing portions of the works commenced. This year we have finisned Woolwich and Chatham; next year we shall ambit Portsmouth, for which we take a very large vote. In Malts we must spread the proposed expenditure over a period of two years. Looking at the outlay yet to be Incurred, not only shall we be able to make a reduction of 214,0001. in 1849-50, but the reduction will go on afterwards at the rate of 60,0001. or 70,0001 . a year, till 1851, when the whole of the works originally projected by our predecessors will be completed, and when the expenditure under No. 11 will be reduced to somewhere about 120,0001. or 150,0001., being the simple cost of superintendence mid repairs. The details have been most carefully gone through, and warrant the result I have stalest. Another item oa which there has been a vast outlay in the last ten years is steam machinery. The vote for it in the ' present estimates is 280,0001. ; that which we shall be en. abled to propose in 1849-50 will be 100,0001. Not that the present vote is too high ; but there arc contracts still to be fulfilled, machinery in progress to be taken and paid for. On the Ist of April, 1849, this country will have a steam navy of 45,000 horse power ; and we think it may then fairly pause in the career of expenditure which has been incurred for the purpose of creating this navy during the last six years. Englend will have altogether, at the beginning of 1849, an effective force of 460 ships of different rates ane classes, in cluding 121 steamers. And, without pretending to fix the proportion which sailing and steam vessels ought to bear to e..ch other, without saying whether this is a proper and , sufficient force for England permanently to maintain, ter that must depend on occurrences which no man can foresee, , I think the Board of Admiralty is perfectly warranted in stating that it sees its way to a considerable reduction in the ! building establishmente, and soiree, after the programme of the ensuing year shall have been completed. Upon the item of machinery, saw-snills, and things of that kind, there will he a reduction ; and the public has a right to expect a corresponding reduction in men's labour. We are very anxious not te make this reduction fall too heavy n the poor men employed in the yards; we don't want to swell o he amount . el/unemployed labour at the present time. I would rather re . duce by not bluing up vacancies,by foregoing all the little patro -1 asp o t that kind, by not taking so many apprentices, than by r having recourse to dismissal, which must tell very heavy on the men who thus earn their bread. I submit this statement , with the approbation of Lord Auckland and the other mew hers of the Board of Admiralty ; and I think we may safely , promise to carry them cut. There wi I be a reduction . under No.ll, the new works, of 214,6431. ; under No. 10 , L steam machinery, of 180,0001 ; on iron steamers (the last one contracted for will be completed in the ensuing year), of 25,0001. ; on the ships building at Bombay (it not being the intention of the board to continue the establiahment there), , 25,000!.; on steam guard-ships (the :eat contract is nearly completed), 8,5001.: schooner now building, contracted for 1, at Bermuda, 3,7001.: making a total reduction of 4:36.8531. , Adding to that the reduction under Noe. 8 and 10, in labour and stoma to be carried out carefully and !yeti matically ' of 150,0001., which. f think, , we can safely undertake to effect, you have a total saving on the (redraws of 1849.50 of 606,8.531. There will still be lett an ample margin for a:1 important additions-100,0001. for steam machinery, 135,000/. for isetory wages, repairs of steam ships ; 473,0001. for new works, which is all that the director himself required; 1.747,0001. for dockyard wages and stores—making no reduction which we do not think it peesibie to combine with the possession of a navy in the most thoroughly efficient state. Provided this he secured, I think the country has a right to reap, us soon as it can be safely effected, the fruit of the enormous expenditure it has been I making for the last six yearn. The outlay on steam sta r chinery alone duce 1835 his Seen 2,689,0001.; upon iron , steam vessels, 503,001. ; upon stores voted since 1844, , 4,444,0001. ; upon works, 2,794,0001. ; nicking a total of 10,432,4781. laid ont upon these four it e m s u p to the close of the , ensuing financial year. Surely it is high time we should , begin to obtain some interest for this ; and I say we have , obtained it. By pursuing this course, we have placed all the great establishments, on which the security of the country depends, in the most efficient and available state. You will have at the beginning of the year a steam navy of nearly 60,000 horses' power •in 1 8 35, you had a steam navy of 4,153 horses' power. 'You will have your two great factories at Portsmouth and Woolwich in a perfectly efficient state for undertaking all steam repairs. At Portsmouth, it is not the intention of the present hoard to go on with those larger plans proposed by our predecessors ; yet the whole piece of ground ceded by the orduance hi the admiralty has been sur rounded with a meat and a sea-wall, and may be available at any future time when further extension is required. The great basin of Portsmouth, which is one of the most magnificent works of the kind, will be opened for us in the course of the ensuing month; the beans at Hasler are proceeding rapidly. Malta has now a dock capable of receiving the largest ships, and will be per fectly tit, in the course of next year, for undertaking all the Mediterranean steam repairs. Bermuda, after 20 years of absolute neglect, is likely now to become a station worthy of a great naval power. Looking at all these things, we may safely say the establishments of the country never were in a more efficient state, and that Englabd never was in a better posi tion to preserve the peace of Europe, for she never wee in e position to prove herself more formidable. It now rests with the house to decide whether, by supporting the proposition of my hon. friend behind me (whatever it be), it will cripple the resources of the country, and undo all that has been done for the last ten yeses, by with holding men, who sloe can give vitality, strength, and efficacy to the system we have been labouring to create ; or whether it will sanction the vote lain about to propose, and maintain the navy establishments in a state worthy of those other es' ablishmeats which have been acquired and kept up at so great an expense ? I know that some singular ideas have been broached lately as to the services required from our beet. My hoe. friend behind me (Mr. Couden) has had visions of orange groves and shady retreats, ander which he supposes our officers continually repose ; and he seems to think that the life of an officer of an English man of-war on foreign service is a constant tissue of pleasure, without any serious duties to perform. (Hear, hem.) Let him look at the annals of the service, rather then at those visions his poetical imagination has kindled up, and I think he will find that the servants of a great maritime power have something to look to and protect more than he 'apposes. Let the hon. member seek the inha aunts of Sicily, Palermo, Messina, or any other part where British efficen have been acting as leaders and protectors of their countrymen in the convulsions that have recently occurred —whether they think that a fleet in the Mediterranean is useless,—whetner the power of England to aid and protect has ever been more firmly and sagaciou s y displayed than by Sir W. Parker ? (Hear, hear.) Let him look to the Pacific; th coace from Behriag's Straits to the Cape of Good Hope is vered by a squadron of 12 ships and 3,000 men, which, in the midst of the disturbances in South America, have given protection to English merchants 1 stablishi d at various place. along the coast. Let him look at the East Indies and the five tree ports of China where oue ship is stationed, under the treaty for the pro tection of our commerce. In the Indian Archipelago, you have seen the British fleet instru mental in the diffusion of civilisation and of peace. You have seen a portion of that Beet concurring in the pro tection of our colonists in New Zealand, where they vied with the army in daring and gallantry. Upon the coast of Africa most arduous duties are achieved by that squadron. Thin may be doubts as to its necessity, or policy, or advan. We, but none as to the manner in which its duties have ban discharged. (Hear, hear.) And I venture to say that the squadron in the Tagus, under Sr Charles Napier, has been the very best naval school that England ever possessed. (Hear, hear.) I believe there n was a commander-in chief who has shown a more indefatigable spirit, or done more to train the men under him, to make them efficient in every branch of their calling, and to enable them to face any enemy that may present himself. (Hear, hear.) I have a. stated ail the facts; and the house must judge for themselves. If they give way to the cry for economy, look- Mg solely to the present, without any regard either to the past or the future, their constituents will be the lint to blame them for that vacillation which no Englishmen, ought to show, b y abandoning a system before he las brought it to perfection. (Hear, hear.) I know what cam. Mita/aides are • I do not represent 120,000 people withoat having appli cations forced upon me every day and every hour, the same as my hon. friends. But I have met them all by stating that this system is the completion of a great object which has been pursued for matey years, and that I would sooner sacrifice my chance of representing them again than consent to abandon its perfection. (Hear, hear.) I think, after the sacrifices we have made, it would be an act of fatuity to fen the results of those establishments which we have been for ten years te Product. I say Eng land has a navy of which she may be proud, and that is the beet security for the peace of the world ; for the only practical security for peace is the power to repel aggro aion, come from whence it may. Ido intrest hon. members k no wing how mistaken their economy may be, to pause be fore they concur in the vote the hon. member is about to pro pose, before they cripple the resources we have been endeavouring to create. I have such.perfeet confidence that the house will support the vote I now ask, that I shall im plicitly abide by the result. (Rear, hear.) The CHAIRMAN. —" IChat a sum not exceeding 693.6061" kr. • ilinsit-143, no. It se understood that no more money was to be voted till the committee on the expenditure had reported. I have no objection to the vote being taken on the number of men, bat it will be a breach of faith if you take a vote for any more mon , y. Mr. WARD thought the hon. member was mistaken. The question as to the number of men wu settled by the prerogative of the crown, and this was the only way in which the question he sought to raise could come before the house. After a few words from the CHANCELLOR of the He el:tete ER, Mr. GLADSTONE referred to the resolutions of last year, and showed that a distinct vote had been taken on the number of men, in which he was supported by Sir JAMES GRAHAM and Mr. CORBY. Mr. WARD said that he was in error. He had been sent the wrong resolutions. (Laughter.) The Earl of LINCOLN—Then you were wrong with re gard to the prerogative. (Laughter.) Mr. DISRAELI—And what becomes of the ingenious ar gument of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which carried conviction to the house? (Increased laughter.) Lord J. RUSSELL said there was a declaration of her Majesty every year to the Privy Council, which set forth the number of men required fur the navy ; but that was not the custom with regard to the army. Sir J. GRAIIAII—But previously to that declaration to the Privy Council the First Lord of the Admiralty and the Board of Admiralty stated the precise number of men that would be required, and it was open to any member of the house to propose a reduction. (Hear.) Sir C. WOOD said that there never bad been a vote of the number of men stated in the estimates separate from the ex pense. Sir J. GRAHAM asked what the vote now was. The CHAIRMAN—The vote now put into my hand is for 43,000 men for the naval service. Mr. HUhIE said he felt at alms how to deal with his bon. friend (Mr. Ward), because he gloried in extravagance, and said that he approved of the policy which had led to the in crease of their naval establishment. lie (Mr. Hume) and his hon. friend were as wide as the poles sounder on that point. He acknowledged that there were cases in which power was relative. But he saw nothing in the aspect of affairs in other countries which should induce them to in crease their expenditure. The powers of Germany seemed to have enough to do at home. The Unit. d States were not likely very soon to engage in a war again; and several members of the government of France declared that they were desirous of maintaining peace. His hon. friend was naturally desirous of having his department as effective as posaible but that was no reason why the House of Commons should agree to his proposition. His hon. friend spoke in exulting term' of the naval stores being well supplied. He (Mr. Hume) doubted whether that was ecouomical. Those stores consisted of several articles which would be unfit for use wlen they were wanted. Was canvass, for instance, an article that would improve by being kept? (Hear, hear.) In his opinion there was a needless accumulation and waste of naval stores. They had a fleet in Sicily — they had a fleet i n the Tagus— and they had a fleet and troops in Buenos Ayres. What punnets had they in any of those places except to protect their trade? They had also 27 vessels on the mast of Africa wnich were worse than useless. It was a pars wane of the resource' of the country ; and this in the face of a deficiency —taking that of last year and the present estimate together —of 4,600,000/. In 183.5 the number of vessels afloat was lei, and the number of seamen amounted to 26,5001.; in 1845 there were 265 vowels of war and 40,000 seamen and in the present year there were 2.56 hips at at, and 43,000 men were demanded. In 1845 they had 75 warners • in the present year they had 96, and not content with t his increase in their steam navy the govern , ment went on still adding to their sailing vessels. In 1835, the deckyardj. rite:amounted to 7,884 ; in 1845, to 12,194, it was now proposed to make it 13,219. In 1835, the appoint ments of officers amounted to 1,736 ; in 1845: to 2,301 ; in the present year, to 3,479. What was there in the situation of the country to justify this progressive Mere se, and were they to vote this large amount at men without having the means to meet the expenditure? The country had storm that it would not submit to on increase of the income tax, and an additioa to the taxation of articles of consumption had been tried and failed. The revenue had produced leas by 1,133,0001. than the noble lord had estimated, and in the face of that decrease could any man in his senses suppose that the estimates of the government for the next year would be realised? They were, therefore, in the position of those who increased their expenses at the time that their revenue diminished. The y must look, then, to a reduction of their establishmenu. lie tho..gtit that a redaction of 1.5,000 men could be made wiu.out clitticulty. But he would only pro pene that the number of men be diminished from 43,000 to 36,000. He thought that the flets which they kept unne cessarily in the Tagus, in Africa, and South America could afford the reduction. The total estimates f.r their establish ments in 1835 was 4,431,000/. ; the estimates fur 1849 were 7,951,8421. The effective service, which in 1835 cost 2,690,0001., was estimated fur 1849 at 5,673,0001. The num ber of men for the army and navy had increased from 121,840 in 1835, to 171,000 in the present year, besides 10,000 in valids. dock-yard battalions, coast guards, and police. It they had kept their establishments at the point they were at in 1833, the country would be saved the whole amount cat the income and property tax. But if they went on increasing their expenditure teem year to year he predicted that an income tax of 6 ore per cent. would be necessary. On an average the revenue of the country at present was not below the average amount of the last fifteen years. That was a consolatory fact, and afforded grounds of congratulation, if only the Chancellor of the Exchequer dealt fairly by the revenue. He did not mean to say that some of the money had not been usefully expended. The improvement of the decks would prove a saving of money in tke end, but the conclusion which be wished the house to come to was, that the ez,enditure on the whole was unneces sary, and ought to be cut down. He would therefore move that 36,000 be substituted for 43,000. (Hear.) The question having been put, Mr. CORRY argued that the increase which had occurred in the navy estimates had been consequent on the transition of our marine from sailing to steam vessels, and that it was absolutely necessary to increase the number of the latter. ' Mr. A. B. COCHRANE said the very moderate increase which was now proposed had for its ob ect to avoid the ne amity of calling fora great increase in the event of war. Mr. AOLIONBY and Mr. C. BRUCE having male a few ob servatious, Sir J. GRAHAM said that this discussion was one of pri mary importance in the :present critical state of European *Leslie, and he regarded the decision of the house on the question as fraught with the gravest consequence.. When he came down to the house he certainly had not expected to be put on his defence by his hon. friend the Secretary for ' the Admiralty, or to hear any repetition of the charge that, when he quitted, office, he had left the naval arsenals unprovided fur. Similar accusations to this had been ou inure than one occasion formerly advanced against him,but he thought lie had diepieed of them in a manner satisfactory to the house and satisfactory even to the parties whe had been most earnest in making the charge. (Hear, hear.) He murdered that he had clearly shown himself to have left behind him in the various dockjards an ample provision of all articles of permanent service, the economy he had prac tised basing been exercised upon articles of • perishable nature, upon perishable stores, the ,übjeet, of ordinary con trae, wh.oh, its rise of need, could be supplied at short no tice, and the provisiou of which, unless in case of need, was mere waste of the public money. (Hear, hear.) And this was precisely his distinction between prudent parsimony and profligate profusion ; that it was prudent parsimony to avoid unnecessary outlay upon perishable stores, and upon stores that could immediately be supplied, and profligate prolusion to make that unnecessary outlay. (Hear, bear.) He begged distinctly te assert that the charge advanced against him of having in 1834 left the dockyards unprovided with necessa ries, was totally unfounded. (Hear.) As to his hon. friend's es timates, tney were as pugnacious in their motives as in their mutter. His hon. friend was not satisfied with assail ing befor.hand those gentlemen near him, from whom he anticipates 01 position, but he must needs tall foul also of him (Sr G. Graham), who had given him no cause for ap. prehension. Mare then this, his hon. friend was rot sates. fled wan moving the estimates of the present year, but he had considered it proper to go the length of stating also the estimates for the ensuing year—(hear, hear)—a course of proceeding which would really seem to relieve the Naval Es,,enditure Committee from the necessity of any further inquiry into that part of the subject. (Hear, hear.) His hon. friend had distinctly propounded his conviction that, while nothing could Le saved this year, the whole amoeut of saving that could be effected in his department in the year 1819 50 was limited to 600,0001. Now, it was to be °Nerved that these smatters of ...tie:lees practically re sowed themselves into matters of confidence in • govern ment. (Hear, hear.) The house might, indeed, point out, in outline, savings that might be effected ; but the details of savings must be left to the particular department. (Hear, hear.) When, therefore, he heard the Secretary to the Admiralty distinct ly intimate that no saving could be made in his department this year, and only • certain amount next year, it made him really despond of any goad flowing from the further inquiry on the part of the committee. (Hear, bear.) The hon. secretary had placed the increase of the naval estimates on a footing which, under ordinary circumstances, was well calculat ed to excite alarm. He argued that, because Sir R. Peel's government in 1842. 44, and 46, with reference to the cir cumstances of those particular periods, proposed to parlia ment considerable increase of expenditure, that therefore it was smential that the present government with reference to (Liam& circumstances, should also progress in expenditure. Lit recall it to the attention of his hon. friend, and of the knee, that when Sr Robert Peel's government came leis Am, they found the China war commenced, and its Glow length along without any prospect of • urination. They immediately took active mei es;;;L;Tringing the contest to a close—a triumphant c'ose, bat this course of necessity involved the country in a large lacrosse of naval expenditure. So much for the estimates el 1842. In 1844, very serious misunderstandings look ghee with France, in reference to Tahiti, and another ta int.. °flour naval estimates was accordingly deemed eseen lia. Again, in 1846, the year when the naval estimates 1 1 meg their highest &must, circumstance' rendered that angseintation politic, if not absolutely indiapensable. He used not remind the house, that the very last act of his right bon. Weed in quitting office, was to pee to parliament the satisfactory announcement of his having that very day received from the United States the intimation of the amicable adjustment of the long pending dispute re lative to Oregon. (Hear, hear.) With reference to all estimates, it was clear that the circumstances of tee tha • for which they were framed constituted their justifiancae, otherwise her Majesty's present government, hvieg In time of great difficulty, surrounded with most grave -reseisk ail.ility, had been, in stating this matter to the house ' cues. palled to observe a cautious reserve. Even on ordinary we. cuisine, it was not the essential duty of a gove rnment • having due regard to the safety and honour Qf this entry and tEli peace of; the world, fully and unreservedly to state all the reasons which from time to time induced it to pro. pose • given amount of military or naval force; a vote which, as be had just observed, practically resolved itself into a vote of confidence in the government. (Hear, hew) The noble lord, however, who first stated these esti ' mates, bad in • plain, intelligible, and manly wee ,laid open to the house and to the country the peculiar circumstances which, at that period, led him to the L conviction that the increase he proposed was not nen than the safety and honour of the country, for the administration of whose affair be waste sponsible, absolutely required. eie an individual member of the house, he ;Sir .1. Graham)) would now briefly exercise the privilege of that position, Lea state his opinion with reference to circumstances as they then stood. He would express his conviction that to the continental powers, to France, for instance, with an ex tended and open position, large standing armies were n nary for maintaining their safety and independence as state,, and that their haring such large armies was, consequently, no just ground for jealousy on our part. (Hear ' - Mail On the other hand, ho felt bound to as, teat great naval preparations on the part of Preece, she not having many colonies or an extended commercial marine scattered throughout the world, whether these preparations were limited to an increase of her shipping or comprehended further the exten sion of her forts and defences on the Channel coast. appeared to him • policy, not defensive, but distinctly offensive, sad, as such, requiring the close and zealous attention, not merely of our executive government, but of our parliament. (Hear, hear.) It could not be denied that from the period tithe first interruption of a good understanding between this country and France—a matter to which it would be urge. nerous and painful fur them to advert under present circuas. stances—(hem ) —this misunderstanding had gradually bees acquiring the character of eomethiug very like hostility. The immense increase in the number of French war-manners sad other Timelier war,and the energetic extension and strengthen. leg of the various forts and defences along the Preach eon* were matters not merely of publicity but almost of ardente tious display on the part of toe government of that country —(heme hear) ; and he must say, therefore, that under twit circumstances the British government would have neglected their duty, would have been guilty of the grossest maces. duct, if, after emphatically protesting against this cohdat on the part of France, they had not, on finding their pey test futile, taken measures for placing England in a state of preparation. (Hear, hear.) Since our last struggle with France a new and most important element of "name had. been introduced in the vast steam-vessels which in suck large numbers France had added to her naval force, and by means of which, and of the railways, brought within the same period to the French ports, a *hole army might in a very brief space be transferred to our shores. (Hear, hear.) It should be always borne in mind, ton, with reference to this matter, that assailants have the advantage of a cone, nti ation of forces, while the defenders, uncertain as to the puiut of attack, are diaper ed (lieu.) Unless, therefore, wider the circumstances which seemed threatening, Great Britain were placed in • state of prepare. lion, there was the possibility that her intact shores, on which, for centuries, at least, a toreign foe had not trod, would be exposed ro that disgraceful and horrible outrage actual incision, so that the battle of our national soda ',cadence would have been to he fought, not on the seas, bet on our own soil. (Hear.) Under such cameramen.* had not hesitated to give his earnest support to the go vernment. While, however, he was the zealous supporter of this general principle, he begged to express the optima that, by a close attention to details, a far larger reduction of ex penditure might be made than was contemplated by the hon. Secretary to the Admiralty—(hear, hear); tad it should be his constant business in the com mittee to make every suggestion which his ups• rience dictated towards this moat important object ; and be hau no doubt that the executive government would elk bit an earnest and honest desire to carry out whatever retina aura the committee 'mould recommend to them as feasible. Same observations had been made with reference to Ike Tagus squadron he would beg, on this subject, to state. the house an o,:inion given to hill' by Sir Thomas Hardy, se the result of a communication between him and Lord Melia. It was this: "The Tagus is to he regarded by this country as the mast important naval station in Europe. For all purposes of home defence, a squadron placed in the Taus is even better placed than at Cork, or even at Plymouth. It commands the Gulf of Gibraltar on one aide; it lies epee to the Atlantic, affording a permanent place of departure be America and the \Vest India'. And, as to the chops of the Channel, it is most advantageously placed. I, for my pert, from all my practical observation, can never consider a squadron placed in the Tagus but as a squadron immediately available, whether for the Channel service or for the Medi terranean service. There can be no doubt that the Tama a peat naval station carefully to be retained by us, and on. stantly guarded by a British naval form" (Meer, bear.) As to the squadron on the African coast, this was a maw under the censideratiou of the committee. There was or item of naval expenditure capable of very material raise tion : he alluded to the squadron of 26 ship, with 2,101 men, which had so long been lying in the Plate River; sal there were other stations scarcely leas susceptible of retread meat in expenditure. But in no case would he meant tot proposition which should really impair the efficacy of the service, and therefore, as to the subject matter be. fore the committee, he could contains . lowly vote for the proposition, for he should never, during tie rest of his life, be without a pang . at his heart we re he, under the present circunistanees of affairs, to sanction the reelects of one single man from the proposed estimate. He hear.) Mr. WARD said he had no desire whatever to fetter the action of the committee. Lord SEYMOUR opposed the amendment. Lord INGESTRE supported the geverameut estimete; and, with reference to Capt. Warner's invention, ("presser his conviction that the invention, if adopted, weuld be the means of saving an enormous outlay of hood and treihure. Mr. COBDEN entered his protest against the [Wanes laid down by the right hen. baronet the member for Hirai; a doctrine which had been asserted on a termer night by the right Lon. baronet the member for Tamworth—tbat the en ecutive government was alone responsible to the erountry fee tha amount of the army and navy estimates. The heal kg more than once heard taunts from the gevernmentorbee the expenditure had been complained of, that it was by thia votes alone that the ministry had been enabled to incur si large an amount of expenditure ; and when the mien!, were called to account for the extravagant demands whit& they made upon the public purse, they threw the response.- lity of having Incurred those demands upon the house. Bit now that the right hon. baronet the member for Rips" desired to find an excuse for the vote he woo about to font he transferred the responsibility from the house to the new tive g vernment. If that uoctrine was correct, if the ministry alone were responsible for the amount of the estimates, tau doors of that house would at once be shut and every member might go home tor any use he was there. lie also pnaested against another of the right hon. baronet's dogmas, that the parliament ha I no right to know the reasons which the se vernment nad for concealing the real state of affairs. (Oh!) If were were secrets, let the house know whet they were. (Laughter, and bear, hear.) He whale. to be informed of the reasons why the house was called upon to vote large sue of money ; and so far from thinking secrecy any advantage, or that any good resulted from leaving so much power is the hands of the foreien secretary, he was of opinion that a would be the wisest plan to let all the world know what list land was doing in this respect. The daily press prevented them being any very great amount of secrecy in forci,n again:, sada 4 was in vain to attempt to involve them in mystery. (H But there were always plenty of reasons to be had when U increase of exp..nse was to be justified. In the year 1831 the right hon. baronet the member for Halifax told the house that Russia was about to invade England, and that in increase in the navy estimates was necessary. The increase wan voted, and then no more was heard of Russian invoke. In 1840, the miserable affair of Syria was urged to the pas for increased naval expenditure. In 1842, China formed a pretext a for ad f i resh h l 8 46, the plea that America waste be apprehended. He pasUl d th iti e on e al itra v v o ag u a r e as in which Mr. Pritchard was lambed. But whatever CU of u t k h ed e au f v o e r rn th ru e en n t i ; ry lla w d , the amount of increase in the expenditure there wer e always over the miserable pretext afforded ny time affair at 'thin. plenty et reasons to justify it. What he wished to draw attention to was, that let the house once give its assent to an duce that excess to the former state of affairs. Then wee now no danger to be apprehended anywhere. (" Oh, oh.") The house cught to bear in mind that at the time the estimates increue 01 expenditure, there was never any effort made to re , now before them were framed there had been not the smallest reason for apprehending that a revolution would break out in France, or that Louis Philippe . would not bs on the French throne. On a former °maroon the Mont i of-nsier marringe and a pamphlet issued by ore of the eove the French king had Men urged as reimens tor appre heading danger; but now there existed no such reasons, nor could any fear be e ntertained of an invasion on the part of the Prince de Joinville. And yet, notwithstanding the groundleramess of the former excesses it was now urged — as if merely to show that an excuse could never be waxiest —that France might invade England,and therefore pre partitions for defence must be made. France had a great deal too much to do at home to be able to entertain any such designs as were a•tributed to her. But another res. son for maintaining the present rate of naval expenditure was that the British ships of war were land for the protection of the commerce of England in foreign countries. In what manner did the British navy protect the commerce of England ? The ships of war never carried on carried on by English merchants. The chief merchants any commer was the commerce of the Mediterranean en gaged in the commerce of Europe were Greeks, Germanm.s. and Italians. He would prove this fact by moving fe a r turns from the British consuls in the Mediterranean Se and on on the coast of Portugal, showing the number of En bleb merchants engaged in commerce in those parts. T e r If turns would incontestably prove that the English m ole were few in number, and that t he y were daily dirniflisirl w 'mo and giving place to others. But that would not s ,t the amount of exports fiom England diminished along ho wha t e to the number of English merchants. The goods foreign the Mediterranean and Portugal were conailfhed merchants, to Greeks, Germans, and Swiss—all o _ carried on their transactions without the preteetss. t ot .. naval force. (Hear, hear.) Could it be pretended 4.stn, British navy was required in order to protect r tl: t n aMs__ o ! commerce ; or, on the other hand, wee it p to_Os . British ships of war were necessary to Pu.,:ich th own e Why, steam had done that for p o (" Oh," and " No.") Be maintained that th h") here were still pirates in the Mediterranean. (" tel • tea were to be found praline in the Eastern seas, but no pus coaches formerly effected in the cases- pirates :high:mays:La.:7 i