The Express. — London, England, 1851-03-11 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. I• 110USF. OF LORDS.—MoNDaT, MAWR 10. The Loan COIII3ICILLoR took his sent at 5 o'clock. PETITIONS FItECENTED. Annicrtregat PIoTE. TioN. —By _ Lord FEVER BRANI, tram the North Riding of Yorkshire, in favour of agricultural protort Mu. CM VrctltY Ital'oltl4. —fly the Earl of CART.ISI.F.. from Rots rt Nlichill, of Bristol, csdnplaining of the bow. s be had sustained in a Chancery suit, mid praying for reform of the Court of Chancery. Tana+ UM KNOWLEOGE.— By the Marquis of LANS DOWSE, hum a place not beard, praying for a repeal of the tales on knowlcvlgc. 1 PASSENGERS' ACT AMENI)NIENT BILL. : Earl GREY mined the second reading of this bill. Its fall object waa to amend an net passed A year or two ago. By the law, to it stolid, the Emigration Commissioners had tbe power of fixing the particular tins. to which a voyage ea t. n d ; an d with r. Sconce to a 1 - oy.tql . to America, .lee instance, pass.iwer ship• viers hound to carry . provisions ;ive tsn weeks. Steam vessels, however, were frequen ti , 'Olariloy...l iw ron,ryina entiwrant., and ..1 course they .o.la !perform the passage ink...time than wining 5tr. , ..1.; but the c onowsdoners hail no power to alter the period of a voyage for ilitla ri ut claws of view's ; and the object of the act was to (wilds: them to lessen the time for 14/.1101•Te.C11 ,1 . Tlic esisting set aNu funiisheil a WA.' of diet fur emi grants; and the law oak,. of the crown bail given it ea their opinion that the commissioners isiuld nut deviate from the pre a rrand crab., and allow an iml II description of diet Inc a latter cla-s of emigrants—the shit. lasing obliged to carry a certain quantity of provisi ~,, . of the ordinary kind, whatever the position of the eMittratit. might be. The hill also proposed to remedy this di fect. Then there was • third provision, which enacted that when a se/t,l was obliged to put hack in distress she should not he al lowed to uo to sea .tif iin until she was fulls. repaired and renilerial ht fur the voyage. Ilia act p,wd two y e ar , a go had girt n great sat isfaetion to shipowners and to i migriuits, and seemcd to work most satisfactorily. Lord ItEDESOALE suggested that a clause should he Inserted to pr. unit the owners of vessel., from carrying parautem on the deck for Iris than they would char;fe for entitle, by which moan. Mt many pan Inch wen, shipped off, ma paid by the Irish unions for going, to this country, add subjeet.il to Cr. at prit.ttnal , .m the lat.-Age. Olnersations awl so gestiUSlS basing been wade by sere rat LOA. lonia, The hill was nail a seated time, and ord . :red to be tom matted of Thursday. SALE OF ARSENIC. The Earl of C.tItLISLE introduc“l a bill for regulating the sale of arsenic, which was read a first time. lIFAIISTRATION OF DEEDS BILL. The Marquis of LANSIMWNE gave notice. am behalf of hi. nolde friend the Lord Chief Justier, that lw would on Monday next mote the rand reading of this bill. I'OUNTY COURTS F.XTENSION BILL. Lord HIZOIIfiIIAM had remitted nuotherlem applies. ~n thi, et, and more particularly %ill, the state niebt which he had math. on Friday last. It was utterly Impossible for him to answer them all, and as many tug mtion. had lw , n made to him by permits wlinixe opinion • highly rslw.l, 1w n0...h01t it 10 las undentimal that it was ant from any disrespect that he did not reply to them indi vidually. It would he wen by the mini, •' however, that warty of the vuttirestions had been attended to. The NM which he bad brought forward (1.1. tassion upon this most important sulect partook somewhat of an experimental elsaract..r, anti he kad no doubt it would be found neetsmary to woke roretith rattle improvements in them hereafter. LIKSItiNS ACT EXTENSION 1111.1.. On t►e suggestion of laird Btuirnitam, Tb.• Earl of Is It AN V I 1.1. E consented that this hill should be referred to a arlert eigarnittee. PAPAL AGGItERSION. FITZWILLIAM wave notice that he should to aim w (this day) on presenting a petition agninst the Er ellesiastieal Title, Bill, make IMPHIC olisersati ii i on the sub kat of whist was. called the Papal Aewnsoin. rh.• Marilub. of I..V.SSIX/WNE hopill the petition would he in th.• proper fonn, because if it r. feria .1 to a hill not IseAns• their lordships, it euuld not b• rcoir,4l. (" Hear," and a lanais Earl Ell ZWII.I.IAM —Well. then. I dare ...ay I shall soon base wog). r opportunity of making the observations I in...ob-4 to have addrevoil to FlAir kiedships to-inoiTuw. (lAught. The house then, at ti n minutes belie. Ai' o'clock, adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONB.- 7 -MONDAT % M.►ncu 10. TM Stumm to.k the ehaiir at four o'clock. I'ItIvATE BUSINESS. Rieuxt RtAlllNl:S.—lineking l l 4 lll, Brneklev, and Ban b.7 Teintpike Road ; Curb and Waterford Railway; Lin eidocihire lioituary; Mayfield KulJetty; Shrewsbury and Birmingham's Railway ; Tower.der. Ilr.ieklev, and Weldon an-the-tireen Turnpike 'toad; Waterford and 'fruntore Railway; Bilk. NANCIIINTKR,_ DIVXTON,__MATLOCK, AND MID- . , !Aril) JUNCTION RAILWAY. Mr. EVANS movisl that, in the raw of the Manchester, Bunton, Matlieb. anal Midland Junction Railway Milk the standing order, No. Ire 2, dispels's/I with, and that leave be Riven to present the hill, notwithstanding the same was 114 presented within three clear clays alter the presen tation of the petition bit leave to bring in the sante. Agreed to. PUBLIC BUSINF.SS. PETITIONS PRESENTED. Smoot. f %ALI . MIL' volt SO IV Ni U. CLERK, San a pine in Fiftwhire, against thus Mnararrmn MARITIR ACT. —1 ty Mr. FOROYCE, hem Ythwhire ; Laid lIOTHAM, frost shipowners, at., of Meislbudtinn, **Mad thin set. Itsionvivt.is MARKET. —By Mr. MASTERMAN, lbsms tbe City"( London ; Mr. PLITMPTRIt, loon a place ht Real Kent ; Mr. It OSBORNE (several), from Middlesex; Mr. Aldericum COPELAND. from Stoke; Mr. MAN ULES. from Guildford; Mr. ALCOVE (4). from Aurelian of Crouton. Putney awl other platys in Surrey ; tat SOLICITOR•IiKNERAL. from the butchers of Sou*. amphost ; Mr. W.LK LEY, friars inhabitants of Stoke New *non ; and Sir 11. MISEN, (non Hatfield, lutanist the itolrtnetret hill for the removal of Smithlielil Market. By Mr. ItERN from inhabitants of Ruelwiter, praying na be tward by counsel against this bill. Erel.V.l Aminurnme Thu.—Various. ..• • - • •• THIS TINNVU liT Mr. II I'OSON, from the 1/11111..r merchant , and ship-builders of Sunderland, stating that they had limn suffering the gri.iteat powihle distress mine" thu navigation laws were repealed, and that they oaght to be relieved from the duty on foreign timber, which amounted to 30 per cent., and praying fur such relief in the event of tho navigation laws not being re enacted. Loan-Lire TTTTTT or !NEI \N n.—fly Sir W. VER NER, Moto the grand Jury of the county of Armagh, gaming the pr0p...4 abolition of thu Oka of Lord- Lieutenant of Ireland. N TIo•ll. STOTRII ov EI.VCATION IN INILAND.—By Sir W. V EItNER, from two places is the county of Armagh, again 4 the national sywein of education is Ire land, and in favour of the aystcm of the Church Education lbseirty. Tits Winnow TAN.— By Mr. WILLCOX. from South ampton ; Sir R. HALL ...vend) from Marylehone ; Mr. MARLEY. from Vinahury ; Mr. SCIIOLEVIELD. from Birmingham, for the repeal of the winduz tax and against the impuaition of a houw tan. An RUT I.VC tL DIRT r..4.—Mr. PORTAL, from Kilom eter', llama; Mr. ROOKER, from the puri.hra of Laystios mad Middleton. and the town and diatrirt of Row, and the salon of Ilenford, complaining of agricultural diaerros. In 'we TAR Ily Mr. suArro, from the medical pract.t• •rs of Ilerlum, proving to he erempted from the income tar a-wsament ; Mr. it'ILLCOX, from Southarop tan. for the mombltcation of the tan. SCHOOL ESTABLISIINIENT (SCOTLAND) BILL. In reply to Mr. V. MM'IILEN&II!, Lord MELOUND said it won bin intention to more for Mane to bring in his School Establiabluent (Scotland) Bill on the 7th of April. .11'111T OV RAILWAY ACCOCNT BILL. This bill was brought in by Mr. Locsr, and read a Ant MERCANTILE MARINE BILL. Mr. I. AIIOUCHERK. replying to Lord John Manners, minted that of jeetions existed at Ih.• present moment to any attempt at roniolidating the saviour. law. atfortinir our mgr. inutile marine. It was, however, deemed possible to &- rumpled% some amendments in the .a•t of last save , and bill for that purpose would be presented during the pr seat asiwitou. NEW ANNUITIES. Sir 11. WILLOI'OBBY gave notice of his intention to more that nu new annuity he granted eaceeding 3,0001. year. ECCLEsIASTICAL TITLES BILL. Mr. 11. DKr MAIDS D stited that he had some difficulty i in arrimng at the curt course hr wiMed to adopt with re- apect to the Recliviavtical Titles 11i1%. Ilk ohject was to prevent the rejection of the lost clown, of this hill. (Hear, bear) If, however, the right him. gentleman the Secretary foe the Home Department (Sir U. (trey) should pose to rettivrt proofs.. after the first claim woo µ oeed, he (Mr. Drummond) should object to the chairman 'caving the chair, and if the right hon. gentleman should move the You., with the view of net/Riving the remainirg clauses, he (Mr. Drummond) shillala then propose that they be taken into eonvoleritiim in committee. ('feat, bear.) INtI'AIItERED EsTATES (IRELAND) BILL. . . The AT rotolEY-OKNERAL iare notice of hisinten tion to move to amend the act for the 9.1 k of encumbered estates is Ireland. JEWISH DISABILITIES. Lord J. RUSSELL postponed the mini.terial bill fur the removal of Jewish diruMlitni until Thursday. SMITHFIELD MARKET. Mr. MART ERMAN gave notice of a motion for counsel to he heard at the bit against the Removal of Smithfield Market Bill. The TEAR ER intimated that, in its present shape, the I/144 10111 could not he entertained. Mr M sT ERMAN was aware of that, but all he desired woo puh:ieity for his object. (A laugh.) THE LONDON DOCKS. la reply to Mr. M Mr. THOHNELIi stated that a petition which was Fo mented relative to the Lontl.ta Docks had bees maned te be printed, and would be in the hands of boa. members imme diately. with he had to sta i r: ti trr iatimi cr, appeareding date the 20th of December, (mai which it was a drpteh from Sir Larry that he war at that time under no apprehension of the itesereprace of the colony being disturbed. On the 24th of December he wrote another diaper+, paring an account of the ineffectual attempt of Colonel Maeltirmon to arrest Sandilli. Then followed a desoikli in whalth an account was given of the farther tfewees. T n i we the moat recent accounts received at the Colotre office ; the sulacomsent account• rothived by the newspapers had been printed, and had of mane been then by every bun. member. (Hear, hear.) The nett p o i nt upon which he wished to give explanation was, a. to the amount of force at present in the colony to meet those hostile barbarians. The force at the Cape on the Ist of June, 1844—the time of the last Kaffir war—was 3,303, of which 280 consisted of dragoon guards. The last returns gave a force of 3,699 men, with four more companies of mounted rifles than there were in the colony at the time of the former war. lie might mention that Sir Harry Smith had sr nt home the second battalion of riff a, thinking that he did not require that additional amount of force. Such was the stub , of affairs, therehore, at the Cape. The stores generally were very well provided, and means hall been taken to send a sufficient supply to the colony. With respect to the measures now token, he had to state that • regiment hail been immediately despatched to the Cape, and thatorders had hecn sent that detachments of the various regiments at the Cape should he also immediately deapatched to that colony. (hear.) An hon. and gallant friend (Sir Du L. Evans) had asked him a question on, Friday with regard to the heavy expenses which might be occasioned by these hostilities. Ile hod now to say that immediately on those hostilities commencing, Sir Harry Smith had made large provision against further attacks, and also that he had made provis:on fur arms and stores bring sent to him. His requisitions hod been complied with ; indeed it win the duty of the commissary-general to provide all the stores which the governor and commander in-chief required. The house was well aware from the despatches on the table, one of which was dated the 21st of March, 1813, and Ow other the 21st of June, 1848, that Lord Grey hail declared that it was not to be expectcal that this country should in future bear the expenses of wars carried on on the frontiers of the Cape, and that the' co lor.y would have to make pmvision for that purpose. Of course it would have loam impossible for the authorities to make that provision immediately, and hence the governor and the commander-in-chief had no other course but to make the requisitions to which he had alluded, for the purpose of atiountoring and suppressing war. The Secretary of State for the Colonial lhopartment (Earl Gre)) had written a despateh within these few days, which would lie laid on the table of the house, and in which he sold be steps you have taken for calling upon the lob Nun.. of the inlay to arm in their 'me defence, and to form a hug- volunteer f wee m ad of her Majesty's regular troops, appears to have been will sorted to the emergency, a d, though a large esprit.* must nue I hem been incurred. there can he no duet of Its hat mg been ebo.ntey memory, sod that It was for Letter to m•ke s great exertion with the hope of prompt y Pm:mama tie war Inn to sun the rbirt of heir, pr At... Jed by besitatiqe to cup in , to I,e tem at ell the woes of borer rat your force whisk wen, aveda Irlieteeer manner It may a towtely be determined lb it the' eh on , should Oa provided foe, you sere clearly riga in increasing the •111•Wie, which was ingispenaahly neeessiry in taking II e no aoure, required for the ...tete Of the edunr ; mud l am glad too learn oh it you thee act. d upon this slew of the stilijoet, at the some time adopting ed the preuutheo in your trot. to pre tent any arena:lir or improper ems minute. With reload to die question as to how tho e nditure let. , Le provided for. I miss resevve my Out. mint well I am in po— mmies al further ishoniat e as. You are...are, from m iterpatehe• re ferret Issinthe marina (No.ttor, March 31. Pits; .o. 111, June 17, late, Mo. 111. June 21, Ills; arid No. it?, J isomer 16, 114 9 !, that her laMesty's government ace 444 pinion that, oink ruck an amount 44 abore is rumiAiatil at the Cape as can re oilseed to t h at r w . th a due regard to the nitrated resources, and to the de of other parts of the empire ha the nerviers of her Stajes y's troops, it is the duty of the C roirmeto to take opt n them men the chow of all further me .opers which may be remind fm their rose defence against the hotrarous tr.ba on tee frontier. Visa to the new whets is soli en retained of the subje.-t, tog it wilt, nevertheess, be matter is itinUde“Uon, when fuller in formation as to lb. r• cent tr inructione shall be received, whether the eattet or the pre-eat ralanhty and the mrcumntencee under which It has occurred, are such ea to pouffe her Majesty's goo ruttiest in re. wrinincriding to parliemeht that a. , -i-tarn' sound be. teen to the *Mom in leo ung ho heavy dein ind upon its no urea which Uri. war most have ~aired. In the meantime, whatever odes you bare hen compelad iiiiran from the military chost -or the pe3 meat settle force jou have rood, or for any other eliplases not memo red en martini et her Majetey'a regular troma, mod be regarded as Moaner s to toe colont d treasury. This was the present state of the ease ; and he (Lord J. Russell) had thought it his dotty to give the house all the Information in his power on the subject. (Hear, hear.) Mr. 11UME begged to ask the noble lord in what state was the government of the Cape of Good Hope ? (Hear.) The letters of Lord Grey in 1848 and 1849 ought have en trusted them with the right of nit % government; and, if so, matters would now be in • very different position from what they were. Public meetings nurnemusly attended had been held at the Cape, at which the inhabitants declared that they had had nothing to do with the expenditure of the previous war, that the people who governed them ought to pay the expenses of it, and that if they were allowed the management of their own affair, they were prepared to adopt measuns to prevent any such occurrences in future, and to protect themselves. Such had been the language at public meeting., held again and again, and, such the readi ness of the inhabitants to act for themselves if their rights were granted. (Hear.) It was all very well for Lord Grey to write letters ; but had he placed the colonists in a situation to protect themselves, and, if he had not, could he call upon then, fur a shilling towards the expenses of the war ? The fact was, that Lord Grey would sink any ad ministration so long as he remained in the Colonial depart ment. (Loud laughter.) Ile could not but speak the truth, and the truth was this—that, after the colonists hail com plained of a breach of public order on the part of her Majes ty'sgoivernment,tlity resisted.T hey waned to obtain a govern ment, to be ,betel and s ond oiled by themselves and to under take the whole of the expenses. What followed ? Only three days before parliament mod last year, though the lousiness might have been settled during the recess, au order in council was prepared, and it Was brought down and n ad in that hnliW. Ile tnen said that nothing could be more sitisfactoory than the proposal of our government to give the colonists the power of funning a guvemment, and he that thought there was an end of the matter. Any man who had been at the frontier of the Cape must kuow that, with a fromtier extending some thousands of miles, it was impossible that • person conducting allies here should know how to act. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord (J. Russell) on the OeelasiOn to which he referred made los able a speech as ever he delivered on the policy to be ob served towards the colonies. lie pointed out what, as co- Innirts, they were eutitled to, and what they ought to obtain ; and out was rant the order for the inhabitant' to prepare accordingly. What next was dune? The inhabi tants elected four individuabi to meet thr at the Cape, them to form a constitution. No appointment was ever so una nimous. The parties met, and what was the first step? Insteaskof proceeding to form the constitution, Sir Harry Smith said the tint thing was to provide for the defence of the colony. The culouists said their stommisaion WAS to form a constitution, and when that was formal proper persons would conduct their affairs. After ovine time, finding that Sir harry Smith would not give way, the four members appointed to Conn the coo stitution:retirnd and throw themselves on theirconstituenbs. Their constituents approved of their proceeding, thought they had acted consistently, and applauded them fur their firmness. The people, finding,they could obtain no mamas, held the largest public meeting ever convened at the Cape, and appointed tom mole/Winds to come to London and repre sent the state of tho ir affairs to the government. One of them had been here three month,, and yet the Colonial-office could do nothing until they he ard again from the Cape, thus trifling with the coolonv. and leaving Sir Harry Smith at the Cape without any political representation. f his being the ease, was it tau much In say that there had been fault somewhere ? and were the people of Englund, who were sow ceps:taw relief from taxation, to be punished for this mismanagement? (Hear. hear.) Probably the whole sue plus of this year and of year. to come would be taken to put down the rebellion. (Hear, hear.) lie thought it strange that Lord Grey should have written the letter which the noble lord had read, and that he should throw out a doubt as to where the expenditure was to come. It would fall on England ; and, as long as they conducted their affairs in this improper manner, how was it possible this country Conl4l, swim. (.. Hear, - and • laugh.) He spoke of a country swimming when it could pay its debts. Mr. LABOUCHEILE said that his hon. friend hid said that he could not help candidly stating the view which he took of this case ; and although he would not follow him into the details into which he had gone, because there would he other and mono suitable opportunities of bringing them before the house, yet there was .me point on which he was able to say that his hon. friend had shown little of his usual accuracy of statement. Ilia hon. friend had talked as if the government had been employed in taking away re prt sentative institutions from the Cape. (No, no.) He said that the government had withdrawn representati,e institutions: (Nook At leastise stated, as an ill...trace ofthe spirit in which the government had dealt with the question, that it war only three days before the last session of parlia ment that they had issued an order in council for the ! establishment of representative institations at the Cape ; whereas, au far was that from being the ease, it was some months before that order in council that the government , had referred it to a committee of the privy council to consider the whole grave question of granting representative institu tions to that colony The result of that inquiry was • recom mendation of the establishment of representative institutions of the most liberal description ever granted to any crown colony, fur not only was there to he a representative coun cil, but a legislative assembly, elected by the colony. Was it then fair to hold the government up to reprobation as having shrunk from their duty in giving free institutions to the Cape. That was not the ease, and his hon. friend would find that his statements would fail to have their usual weight if he dealt in such sweeping allegations. Mr. ADDEILLEY said that although be did not believe that the government were to blame that the Cape did not now ' , taws/ • free government, still there was a want of concert between the government and their agents, and the authorities on the spot, in carrying out the plan. When this was so, the government ought not to try to wash their hands of all responsibility for the failure, fur they were at least responsible for the causes which prevented the Cape from now enjoying free institutions. This wit not, how ever, the time to enter on that question, but they had to deal with the existing unfortunate state of thing.. Ile , hoped the government would soon give an opportunity for a full disease . of the matter. Ile wished to ask the noble lor.l, if he was aware that British Kaffiraria was a different place to the Cape Colony, that it was • separate British possession and was separately administers* and was neither politically nor TilE KAFFIR WAR. O Locally contorted with the Cape. Re hoped the noble On the order of the day betas read for the house to re- I lord and the Secretary for the Colonies were aware that Wye itself into • committee of supply, they could not call on the Cape to pay a farthing for this . lard 3. RI. BSBLL rune and said he wished to impart all war. It should be borne in mind, Ilse what an enormous the laformation be posaemed with respect to the state of loos of property there would be in Kaffraria, and that the alga It the Cope of Good Hope. (Ilan.) In the &MOAN, enrolee to be incurred would not be limited to the wading THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 11, 1851. out of troops from this country, but would apply to the raising of troops at the Cape and sending them to and therefore the e:pt•me must fall on the imperial trea sury. If the noble lord and the government had, attended more to the wishts of a large hotly of the memlnsrs of that house, who werodesiretis of giver( free iustitadons to the Cape, the present outbreak Would not have happened. Be wished to ask if, in the last despatch', which had been reired, there mac ony 111 , 1 , WCT from Sir Harry Smith to a despatch of Lord Grey relative to the divputes which had oeeuxred about the formation of the tonstitut: ~,, , on as to enable the government to lay on the table the papers which embraced the period from the time of the letter, patent going out till the members appointed by the colony ceased to know if a copy of the despatches which had been sent to Ceylon the subject would be produced. Mr. HAWES said he had endeavoured, on a former occasion, to captain why the papers were nut produced, rind he would now endeavour to state, as clearly as he could. the reason why the es idence taken in Ceylon by the COM missioncro, with regard to Captain Watson, could not now be presented to the house. Last autumn he had received the report of the commissioner. and the evidence, and as it had been determined that Captain Wabwin should be tried by a court martial, it was inetssary to stud the r.'- port and evidence to the Horse Guards, from whence it had been scut to the military authorities in Ceylon to enable them to conduct the prosecution. There was a copy or du plicate of the report in the possession of the Colonial-office, and so far he could comply with the order of the house ; but there was no duplicate there of the vast mass of evi dence, and therefore he could not produce it. lie found there was only one copy, which had been given to Captain Watson, and he had written to Ceylon for the originals. Mr. BAILLIE wished to know by what authority the Secretary at War had sent out documents connected - with Captain Watson's ease to Ceylon, without keeping copies? Mr. 1. MACLE said that the papers were wanted before a court-martial; but the matter did not lie in his depart ment at all, but rested with the Commander-in-Chief of the Army, or with the Horse Guards. For his own part, of these documents he knew nothing. SUPPLY.—NAVAL ESTIMATES. • ' •- ••• • • to negotiate. Lord J. RUSSELL said Sir Harry Smith had left the Cape sonic time bee ire to meet the threaten e d danger in Kaffraria, and he did not belies,• that there was any such despatch as the hon.gentleman referred to; at all events, he had not seen it. Mr. V. SMITH said the affairs of the Cape were of too grave a nature fur the house to enter on a discussion with regard to the Colonial-office and the colonies now; but he wished to point out some information which he thought ought to be before the house. This out break did not come unawares on the lion. member for War wickshire, or the hon. member for kloutrose, for they were aware of the position of things in the colony, hut itemise unawares on the country-, for in the last dispatch of Sir Harry Smith, it was Statvil that " the Kaffir. were happy and contented under British rule," and in the very next despatch an account was given of this outbreak. Ills noble I friend (Lord J, Rumen) had said that in March, ISIR, Lord Grey had sent instructions to the colonists warning them that they would he responsible for the expenses of any future wars. On this point there should be information given as to what had been done, in order to prove that his instructions had been acted on, and again there should he information as to the condition in which the proapeets of repress:motive institutions for the Cape stood. With re oreaentative institutions, it would no doubt be the duty of the colony to defray the expenses of any wars which, with the nrcaent extended frontier, would be constantly arising. It was true, as had been said, that there had nut been any taking away of representative institutions from the Cape; bat what they wanted to know was where had been the de lay in granting them—(hear, hear)—and why they were not now in force in the colony ? On those points there ought to be iminciliate information. Lord J. ItI:StaELL could only say that such informa tion as the government had should be laid before the house, and with regard to what hail been said as to the frontier being made more extensive, it was the opinion of military authorities that it was rendered more defensible by being so extended. Mr. BANKES said he understood the hon. gentleman the Under Secretary for the Colonies to say that he had re ceived part of hi. information with regard to the late out break from private letters. If private letters had been re eeiyed, it was mil that none had been received at the Colonial-office. Ile wished to ask if there was no officer or secretary at the Cape who, in the absence of the governor, could communicate with the goverument here ? Lord J. RCSSELL—There was a despatch from the se cretary of the governor to my hon. friend the Under Secre tuT for the Colonies, but it did not contain intelligence of so late a date as private letter'. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIEQUER—There was a letter from the Commissary General at the Cape to the Treasury, and it added the intelligence that the f‘d b, governoror had hiscut en way through thy force by which he laIPOIRTATION OF IRISH PAUPERS. Mr. B. COC'Illt.tNE hosing referred to the inquest lately held ou the infant of a woman named Ann Connell, which hail died from exposure to the weather during a pro tracted patsere, on the crowded deck of a steamer, between Cork and London, Mr. LABOUCHERE, complaining that the subject was brought on without notice, promised that the particulars should be' inquinal into, if, indeed, such inquiry had not already been commeneed. Ile referred at the mow time to the bill recently paused for preventing the overcrowding of steamboats, under which several prosecutions had been in , stitutesl, and every elbirt made to restrain the practice. mETitoPoLurns COMMISSION OF SEWERS. ' Sir U. GREY, in reply to Sir B. Hall, mitt that the act under which the present commission of sewers was consti tuted expired this session, and it would be necessary to in . troduce a bill to revive the commis . ion. lie would not say when that bill would be brought in, but it must be in the present session. ECCLESIASTICAL PREFERMENTS. On the order of the day for the house resolving itself into committee of supply, Mr. W. WILLIAMS said that the government bad inti • mated their intention to take certain votes in the army estimates—among others, that for the number of men. But, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had avowed his intention of submitting an amended budget, the house ought to have that budget produced before they voted away the public money. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, on the question that the Speaker leave the chair, he should move, as an amendment, that no supplies be granted until the amended budget was brought forward. Mr. HUME wished to know whether the government would explain the peculiar circumstances which required the same number of men for the navy in the ensuing as in the past ear?y Sir F. T. BARING replied that when the Speaker left the chair he should be in a position to give every necessary explanation in going into the estimates. _ fhe question that the Speaker do leave the chair, and the amendment of Mr. Williams, were then put; but, as that hon. member did nut divide, the house resolved itself into committee of supply. Sir F. BARING proceeded to open the general question of the navy estimates, preparatory to proposing a aerie, of votes on account of that service. Referring to the objections he had urged, in past years, to the system of taking scanty item se o tesoff,,seuxpety,,nwec..kessiteautipngtoth„eksfincmaclyT he (Sir F.Baring)troduction elan rejoiced to state that no such item would now appear, hut, on the contrary, the expenditure during the two years last pad was nearly ioo,oool. less than the amount voted by the house, and the accounts of the current twelvemonth would present a eontinuance of this saving to a considsrable amount. Coming to the successive votes, he stated that the first, that fixing the amount of men, would la• the same as last sear, vit., 39,000; and remarked that France, with much smaller demands for the protection of colonies and commerce, kept on service a body of 24,000 as amen. Since 1434, again, which had been assumed as a " model " year, the increase of expenditure on this item hail been much larger with our neighbours than ourselves. While the number of men remained the same as last year, the next vote, namely, that of the money wanted to defray the cost, would he slightly increased, owing to some increase in the pay and allowances. Alter explaining the mode in which u reduction of 1,246,000/. hail been effected iu the dockyard expenditure for building, repairs, works, &c., as com pared with the votes of 1848-0, the right honour able baronet went through the remaining list of votes. With regard to the stores ' there was a decrease in the estimates of 41,0001., and he had every reason to Ire. lieve that the stores at the present moment were fully as able to meet the demands of the navy as they had been fur a very long time. The reduction made was therefore a real reduction, and not one that would require afterwards to be made up. Under the " half-pay " head the vote required was apparently . large, but they must recollect that if they had few ships in commission the amount of half pay must be somewhat larger than in other eircumstances it would be. This vote had like wise been of late years gradually diminished, and the reduction fur this year was about 20,000/. The re duction under this head, as he had just observed, had been gradually going on, and he had no doubt it would coutinue. The vote boo the packet service this year presented an in crease, but this was on account of the additional fa• ilities of communication which had been afffirded to the mercantile world. They had made provision fur further accommodation on the south-western coast of America, they had provided further accommodation to the Brazils, and they had also afforded increased faciliticsof communication with the Cape of Good Hope. The additional 4.3,11001. for which he would have to call for these establishments, would not, he thought be objected to on the part of the public, seeing that it was entirely devoted to the purposes of commerce, and was not for the military purposes to which the other services were devoted. On the whole navy esti mates the diminution was 171,000/, and they had every reason to anticipate that the actual expenditure would be below the estimate he now called for. He begged to state the general results of the board of administration with which he was connected, not because he took credit to him self for the reductions, but in order that the house should know the real truth, in the midst of the many reports which were circulated. In stating these results, he would take the actual expenditure, and not the nominal sums voted, because it was quite an easy matter to reduce the estimates if in addition to those voted were allowed to be expen ded. They were now near the end of the financial year ; and he could approximate pretty closely to the sum which would be expended. The expenditure for 1848-9 had been 7,9d4,000/., and the actual expenditure for 1840-1 he would not be far wrong in stating ut 6,363,500/. That he 1 1 was assured would cover the actual exp mliture. They had, however, to consider that the suns of 92,000/. had been transferred from the department on account of convict ex: peuditure and the registry ; but even taking this into ac count, the reductions effected within the last two years in the actual experiditure amountedto 1,400,0001. Theright ho nourable gentleman then went on to compare the expendi ture with that under the administration of Lord Grey, who, he said, hail acquired a reputation for economy. When Earl Grey bad come into office in 18.30, he had found the expenditure at 5,768,8601. Economy had been practised, and in 1834-3 d tho expenditure had been reduced to 4,626,000/., being a reduction of 1,112,0001. in four years. They had, however, to consider that during these four years the expense of the coast guard had been transferred to the customs. The coast guard expenditure being 142,0001. reduced the actual, saving effected in these four years to one million. Now, the administration with which he (Sir Francis Baring) was connected had in two years saved one million and a hall No doubt they would be able to continue that course of economy. He looked with some degree of doubt at those attempts he had seen recommended in other quarters for reducing very largely and suddenly their naval force. Ile had seen that in 1830 Lunt Grey came into office with a feeling of the necessity of reduction. A considerable reduction was no doubt effected, and when Sir Itobert Peel came into office reduc tion had been carried still farther. The result had been, that matters took a turn unfavourable to such reductions, and it became absolutely necessary to increase the naval service very considerably. Ile (Sick. Raring) did nut approve of these ups and downs. lie thought they should not cut down too low in days of distress and raisetuo high in days of prosperity. That SIM really the true course of economical administration. With regard to the present estimates it would be found that the expendi ture had been considerably reduced, while at the same time the establishments of the country were in a state of effi ciency as great as they ever were. The administration of the affairs of the navy had been conducted on an econo mical, but not a meagre, system. Wc have largely re duced the expenditure, and much improved the condittenot the common sailors and that was no trilling matter. From the statement he had made they would have perceived that all requisite accommodation had been afforded to the mer chant service, and that they had fulfilled the expectations held out regarding the various lines of steam communica tion when they had been first commenced. The CHAIRMAN having put the question that 39,000 awn be employed for sea service. Mr. HUME rose, and said that lie was not going to in terfere with the latter part, or, indeed, the greater portion, of the speech which the right hon. gentleman (Sir F. Bar ing) had just made, be-cause' very little of it was to the point at issue, which was, whether they were warranted in voting that number of men. When the several votes came to be considered, there would be time to examine each point mi nutely. Ile had waited with much anxiety to know what reasons the right honourable gentleman could assign for continuing the number of men at the present rate ; but the only one he had heard was that they ought not to he indifferent to what passed across the channel. It was very singular that when a re duction had been proposed in the French chamber, it had been urged that they should nut reduce too low, because. England kept up so large a number. Thus the French kept up their number because the English kept up theirs, and the only excuse assigned on the part of our own govern ment was, that the French kept up their number. This was the sort of circle in which they were. This, however, was not the view they ought to take on votes of the kind before them. Before he proceeded further, he begged to make an observation on the subject of the budget. He had desired some explanations regarding it before they voted leach a number of men, for he thought it was of importance that they should, at this stage, know what they were to expect from the budget. They had not heard whe ther it wat the intention to propose another budget—a budget which would be, in any great degree different from the former one; but if they might judge from the opinions expressed both in the house and out of doors, the budget to be proposed was one which could sever pass that house. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He was anxious to have had a statement of some sort before they had gone on with voting the supplies; because, after an experience of thirty years, he felt convinced that they ought to have their means pointed out before they voted their expenditure. A different course had been adopted blets, and told ha United e d is m e . : r o t s o tali u tuct those him. members who wished to reduce the expenditure were had ed spoken tha t t h of e y had France, ad he b e u h t two millions Stat of were tooo o a f bo co u m t. mer T ei t he (Mr. Hume) wished he had taken a look to shipping which was capable of being turned to purposes of war; and instead of looking to France, it was to the United States they should look for a precedent in reference to their warlike establishrmata. America, with the atingle camp ktipos.,:t wa sur ourkseunppionnari. .... Sir B. ALL wished to put another question to the right hon. gentleman with reference to • return with re gard to church preferments which had been presented to the house. On the 30th of May, 18i0, the house had ordered a return to be made of the preferments held by archbishops, bishops, and dignitaries of the church. All the returns which had been made were imperfect, but from the Bishops of Ely, St. David's, and Exeter the only answer was, "No return made." He MiSlll,ll to ask whether any communication had been made to those right rev. prelates in pursuance• of the order of the house, whether that com munisation had been made to them more than once, and whether there was any hope that those right rev. prelates would make any return? Sir O. GREY said that the order for the return had been communicated to all the bishops, and in eases where no return hail been previously received a letter hail been addressed to the right rev. prelate's and others on the 29th of July last. Since then returns had been received from all of them except three. On the 6th of August he (Sir (.i. Grey) had received a letter from the Bishop of St. David's expressing his regret at the delay which had oc curred, that he hail lost no time in desiring his secretary to make the return, but it was found to be a matter which would occupy much labour and time. Ile had also re ceived from the Bishop of Exeter, while transmitting to hint some other returns, a communie stion stating that from the multitude of returns he had to make he had been unable to prepare the one required, but at the same time adding, that he thought it was a question whether he ought to make any such retorts. From the Bishop of Ely he had received no information. Sir B. lIALL said he would give notice that to-morrow he should move that the returns be made forthwith. LABOURERS AT JAMAICA. ....... Mr. BERNAL begged to ask his hun. friend, the under secretary for the colonies, whether the government was pre. panel to take any measures to supply the alarming deficit of labourers in Jamaica. Mr. MANES said that as his hon. friend had given him no notice of the question, he would rather answer it to. morrow. He thought, however, that the papers moved for by the right him. gentleman the member for Cambridge would give him all the information he required. GRAM IE ADDRESSES TO THE QUEEN. Mr. ARCHDALL would ask the right hon. gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department, why, when no objection was made to the presentation of the addresses of the loyal Orangemen of Ireland in ISIS, and which were then " received graciously," he hail refused to present the addresses forwarded by him to the Wine body iu 1860 ? (Hear, hear.) Sir O. °REY said it would be recollected that an address had been carried in that house to her Majesty, praying that measures should be taken fur the effectual discouragement of Orange lodges and societies excluding persons from them on account of their religious faith, and using secret signs and symbols. It was true that in 1848 two addresses had been forwarded to him for presentation from Orange usages, and one had also been received from Canada, and if, by any inadvertence, amidst the number of addresses sent to him for presentation, he had laid them before her Majesty, any censure which was due to such a proceeding ought to fall on hint (Sir G. Grey), there was only one other address which he had laid before the Queen from any body of Orangemen, and which hail been acknowledged by the Under Secretary for the Home Department; but mi it called on her Majesty to dismiss her government, he hail hesitated to stand between the Queen and any of her subjects who addressed her on such a sub ject. Those had been the only addresses which had been received by him ; and as to any which had been pn.siented to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, of those he had no knowledge. If he had not received the addresses in ques don, he bad only acted in accordance witharesolutionol that house. (Ilear, hear.) Mr. ARCHDALL said that the explanation of the right hon. gentleman was not satisfactory, and he should move tar copies of the addressee. THE BOROUGH OF DUNGARVON. Mr. C. LAWLESS wished to ask the right hon. gentle man the Secretary for Ireland the reason why the horou4h of Dungareon had been so long without representation n the present session. Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that it was not a matter connected with his department, and ha was unable to give an answer to the hon. gentleman. LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND). Mr. A. STAFFORD begged to ash the right hon. gentle man the Secretary for Ireland if he could state when he would bring forward his Landlord and Tenant Bill fur Ireland. _ . SOMERVILLE was afraid he could not state when the bill would be brought in. THE GRANT TO MAYNOOTIL Mr. SPOONER begged to ask the right hun. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or, as he was not in his place, the noble lord at the head of the 'government, if he intended to pmpose a grant to the College of Maynooth, and if so, in what number of the estimates it would be placed, and who it would be likely to come on ? Lord J. RUSSELL said that the grant for the general expenses of the college of Maynooth was provided for by an act of parliament; if them were any extra expenses, they would be in the estimates ; but he was not aware that there would be any extra expense this year. If the bon. gentle 'man had given him notice of the question, he would have (risen him the information he required. lie. SPOON ER said he would put the question again • to-morrow (this day). JEWISH DISABILITIES. Sir R. INGLIS said that hi: noble friend (Lord J. Rus sell) had given notice of his intention to introduce a very important bill, the Jewish Disabilities Bill, on Thursday ; and he wished to ask whether his noble friend, in giving that notice, had looked to the order-book for that day, and whether he expected that gentlemen who had notices on the paper would give way ? - L or d I. SSEL L said he was not aware whether hon. patient:a would give way for this bill, but he was anxious tto bring the bill in at the earliest possible period, in conic quenre of the house having passed a re elution last session I pledging itself to consider the question early in this session. CEYLON. - ---• Mr. Ht ME wished to ask a question respecting Ceylon. He had moved for papers relating to Captain NN awn in connexion with the outbreak in Ceylon. and the hon. gen tleman the Under Secretary for the Colonies had said that there was no objection to his moving fur them. lie wished Linn of title countra, was the greaten power in the world, !expenditure. The admiralty system was faulty from Mein and woo de only royal which we had any reason to fear. No , ning to end, and repteially us it concerned the naval dock sooner had the war been over than the Americans put down yards. The two millions and mom spent annually in those their establishments, and from the report of the secretary to ! dockyards might be reduced to at least one-third that the Cniteel States m'vy he (Mr. Hunte) found that it - amount; and the result would be a more efficient navy amounted to luny thiroyarnie %angle, including seven line j than we now pussessed. No private cement mould send of battle ships, twelve friaates, twenty-one sloops of war, ' ship% to sea without ruin, if their construct' was managed four brigs, and seven steamers. Let them compare here on the sante:principles aim those of the government dockyards. the rase (of a country with debt, and that of one without Cousidering the difficulties he had to contend with, arising debt. Ile wished now to call their attention to the number out of the system, the greatest passible credit woe du •to the of WWI! , on the stocks. In America time had on the stocks right hon. baronet at the head of the admiralty ; but still the four line of battle ships and two large frigatee, hut orders I house and the country had a right to know tine reason of the had been given to stop all work on them. What a great increase observable in the navy estimates of late difference was presented by the cast of this country. We ' years. Comparing those now before the committee with tho had 74 men-of-war built, but never at sea. They had average expenditure fromlB32 to 1838, therewas an increase launched a number equal to the whole of the British navy of 2,236,976/. The mischief was, a great deal that had been since the termination of the war, and we allowed our vem dune had turned out utterly uncles.. Homier. credit to the eels to rut. The expenses of building vessels which were right hon. baronet for his reduction', but should like to see never used, but pulled again to pieces or allowed to rot, them go much further—to five millions, if not lower. Two were most enormous. The quantity of timber destroyed in or three of the dockyards were utterly nselen. Ile would the dockyards was very great. They had been Faille time abolish that at Deptford, as the commercial intereti of ago told that thirty-three thousand Made of timber had London required that the ground should loe given up. liken worked up, and that none was left in store. With The great increase of 'steam navigation in the regard to the number of officers employed in the American Thames had made navigation so difilettlt and dim. navy, he might state that they bore a very small proportion ' gerous that greater room must be a ff orded for coasting to tM/Sl! in the British service. From a statement he held vessels and colliers; and there was no other place where in his hand, he found that there were in the American • dock,. could he provided i.e them, except the ground now navy 6$ captainns, 97 abolished with the greaten advantage to t h e pub licrubteenaen,t,sretiawnred et . : . c ig y r ie be tel by government dock-yard at Deletion', which ane were so small rev :ds'elmypeslearelt'whi3itru2b7gh ours, the re- lie aervice. The victualling stores, and all the other stares y ° s e srl a- th si . on ' ed f he al d i Zlc. "l - I ) u. a a r l ds " a i t ' rlia . which ought to b at e d th e a n t e p a l w asse e lowing reductions—vie., en in place of 68 captain's 80 in broke ought also to be abolialied : the latter was the most officers than mu m % lie to em ' pro te yed, t a h t e ld t rentitimeeemen.ed.sedeetheterl place of 97 commanders, and 300. n place of 327 lieutenants. scandalously mismanaged affair that ever existed ler any Ile found that in 1833-8 the nundwr of men borne government, and the V.PCII.I, of ship-building there was at were more than the number voted. The number of men least one-third more than it ought In he. Its distinee ren borne was 20141 • in 1636-7 the numbers were 31,136; in dered it scarcely within the control of the Admiralty, :Ind 1837-8 they were 31,289; and in 1838-9 they were 32,000. the abuses existing there were such as wettl.l astonish the .1 great proportion of these men were to man the African world. Chatham need not be maintanied an) lo n ger as a squadron • and with regard to it lie thought the house ought building-yaril. The yard.. at Woolwich, Ponamou t It, and to have had some explanation after the unanimous express Devouport, including the Keyham baain—where alas limns sine of the house against it last year, and seeing that no- hied been the most eatramilimery misfit:tibia. pent -were thing but a threat of resignation on the part of ministers in- sufficient for all the ship-building; and if more ships were dueed the house to alaCernitli continuance. lot Mahe found wanted than w ould 11.: built in those yard., let them be there were 14 veseelscruising, while in 1815, when the number done by contract. Ile sow uo necessity tor keeping up such of men had increased to 40,000, there were 28 ships of war a formidable army. They might sally n•ilue.• the number on the coast of Africa, and 9at the Cape of (heel Hops.; of men in the navy to about midway lie•tween what they being 37 tench tilDegether, where there had formerly been were in 1832-34, and the 311,000 now proposal; and next only 14. It had been proved that the attempt,' to put year they might make a further reduction. Having este. down the slave trade by that means were futile: they had blishments they could not reduce them all at once; tried for twenty years and had fuiled, and the United States but the time had come when they must seriously and France were both desiroue of receding from their en- meddle with the whole of their finanCO. They ought µeasement, ; AO that there was now no excuse for to take a genera view of their whole espeadi e naiuuina the squadron. Ile should DA the house turn, and then of their whole taxation. In the present that evening whether they would continue thk squadron. state of progress, with the steatmengine, the netain-prtew, If they disconainueel it, 30,600 men for the nosy would lie steam railroads, and steam - ships, our intereourse with all amply sufficient to defend the country. Ile :aka the parts of the world would not let us go en much longer with country gentlemen who, to the number of 270, voted lately out grappling compreitimaively with the whole system of for relief in agriculture, whether they meant to be hornet? our taxation and expetoliture. With this conviction he Where were they now ? (The opposition benches were must, however reluctantly, without any &crow. disposition almost empty.] If they wanted to malice taxation they towards the government, but as a duty to his coestituents must reduce the expenditure; they wore not there, and he and the taxpayers generally, support the amendment would record them as being Assist. In Dela they had 167 which had been proposed. ships in commission, with 26,400 men; in 1844 the men Mr. COBDEN maid the question heetre the committee were increased no BOW, and the ships to 231; and in 1848, was the vote of a sum of money equal to the income tax, to without any tenon fur it, they had 43,0110 men voted, and the malt tax, or to the whole of the assessed taxes, with tho actually maintained 44,500, and the ships in commission addition of the soap and paper duties. For it could not ho were 246, wandering about the world, and often doing mis- concealed for a moment that, if they coral the number of chief. Now was that a proper state of things when the men, it was quite in vain to think afterward. of reducing people were in distress?—and in distress they were ; fur materially the vote of money in the ttavy. 11.• was con though in the manufacturing districts they were receiving elided, from three years' experience in conunittees 011 navy, good wages, and provisivas were cheap, yet he had army, and ordnance estitntites, that it was a delusion to seen many reverses in his time, and might see thud , of effecting any considerable staying in the espendi more. And were they to be without a govern- dun" of the navy, unless they could reduce the amount of meet ? Ile believed the present ministry did not the forces. Going back to 1845, and looking at all the re want to be in; they would rather be out, anti there was ductions ever effected, they would WV that the number of nolmay, it seemed, to Dike their place.. And he would men natal had been generally a fair teat and Doke of the here einem, that lewd Stanley did not compliment the amount of money spent. There might tie exceptions, aria -270 gentlemen who voted fur protection, as he said there ing from large occasional outlays. This test upplied to the was only one of them who could take office. It did not, reductions made by the right 11. m. baronet opposite (Sir J. however, require brilliant talent to carry on the govern- Graham) when he exercised his moat useful sway at the mint according to the wiehes of the people; and were they Admiralty from pao to 1834, for while he effected a reduce to he told that, out of 270 gentlemen of the House of Cora- tion in the expenditure from 5,687.000/. to 1,726,0011/., the mein, they retold nut find fifteen or sixteen who were came- reduction in the number of men was from 32.000 to 26,000, ble of carrying on a department, more particuloorly being nearly in great a per centage as that of the money. It when it sat well known that the departments was not difficult to amnia a reason for this. In dealing were carried on by the clerks ? (laughter.) Ile with the navy, they were dealing with the largest manufac ailtuitteil there ought to be a head in the Chaueellor of the turing concern in the kingdom, or perhaps in the Exchequer. (Laughter.) Whether it haul been found this world. It was a large manufactory of shipping, employ time he left the people to judge. They were the 'smelting ing upwards of 10,000 persona, the greatest pro stock of the people of Europe at ibis moment, who r.lllll portion of whim, were skilled artisaite. There was no not understand why one class of men were not as capable of concern like it in England, or probably in the vaned, taken carrying on the government as well as another. Punch us an individual moment employing labour. It was:, maxim represented a certain high personage going to the which nobody would dispute, tltat the worst Of all 'nano , old doctor. The mentent he (Mr. Hume) heart' harden. saw a government. At present our doe:nada were Blat t he said, " You may depend upon it, it political inetiturnme from beginnina end. Aid. generally I will be as we were." There was not an im- speaking, the parties engaged, down to the loweet shipwright, provement connected with the army since 1840, or in were independent of the men who might tuliave the power of connexion with lielithouses, or with regard to pilots; that disputing of them and dispensing with their services. He, the Duke of Wellington had not opposed. And for her therefore, louked to other means of reducing the expendi- Mmesty to be advised to send for such a man ! "They did turn, and caked if it was nenewary to keep up the number not," continued the hon. member, "they did not tend for of 39,000 men ? In 1833 they hail 25,00 n; why keep up me." (Laughter.) lie was, perhaps, as old a doctoral; the 14,000 more now? This was no motion of the Peace duke—he was in the field as early to he was—he had paid Society for the abolition of our navy ; but he wanted to more attention to the passing events of the last 20 years, know why '23,000 men would not suffice an well for the and lie thought he could prescribe quite as well. 114%y now as an lti3:t ? Were any eiretunstancea alleged to Ile must say the people would look upon them show that the country was in greater political ur national as a set of dente to allow such proccedinge to go on. &lager than in 18:13 ? There were then some grave inter- The people would require them to come to a decision sonic national questions unsettled; there was a serious boundary way or other. l'apal aggression seemed to he the point at question with the United. States; a dispute with Revue issue. lie thought it impassible to carry the measure which involving a threatened war; and there were diplomatic had been proposed, without creating almost a civil war in quarrels looming with France, respecting the Littera of la neighbouring country. He considered the 1611 was oh- Tahiti and Syria. All those were now diepreted jectionable, and for his part he would resign his scat rather of; there were no boundary questions— nothing which than rennet religious liberty. He counselled the noble lord could excite hostilities from any quarter. Where, to do either one thing or another, either to bring in a then, was the necessity for keeping up this amount of bill which would satisfy the country, or withdraw the bill force ? He knew but two reasons why we' should keep a altogether, and not let the time of die house be taken up by navy at all—because we were a maritime people and had the hill as it now stood. Much as he should deplore the shipping, and becauae we hall coasts to defend from some restoration of a no-popery cry, he th o ught the only remedy enetuy. We did not keep them to go and ettinmit &pinta her Majesty had was in a general election. He wished the roue on other people ; the object was to tomb e•t commerce constitution to be maintained, and to prove to the world and to protect our shore's. lie believed that a great that a representative government need not lie impeded dead of exaggeration prevailed ate to the occasion for as it now was. To return to this vote. If they the navy to be employed in defence of our corn rejected this vote of 39,000 men, what would be the merce. Generielly speaking, where wo had trade we consequence ? Government would say, " We cannot carry had international Meath..., ambasselore, ("mauls, and sot on. on, and we won't do it." The house would say, " You It was a remark constantly made in the newspapers of the must do it ;" but government would say, " No, we won't," United States of America, that they never saw one of our and then they would be again "as we were." Ile thought ships on their coast; and in the larger portion of the cunti they had arrived at a state of things they ought nut to put neat of Europe they had ambassadors and 1:011SUIS to rectify up with. Ile complained that her Majesty had been ad- any mistake's that might occur. In the ordinary state of need to send for the Duke of Wellington, and said that, in theme, therefore, there was no necessity for keeping up a his opinion, the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) large number of ships of war. (Rear, hear.) He did had advised his being sent for. lit would now not say that a clan of small sham were not nes whirrs himself to the country gentlemen. Ile found cessary as a kind of police in time of peace. that when wheat was at ens. a quarter the agriculturists In this respect they would do well to imitate received in the aggregate 210 millions sterling per annum the example of the United States of America. The governs fur grain, but now that it was at 405., they received only anent of the United States did not keep up any fleet except 140 million., making a difference to them of 70 millions. for commercial purposes. They had no line sot' battle ships There was no wonder, therefore, that they sought relief. afloat, or even in commission. (Haar, hear.) The only Ile asked them, therefore, to join him, and to take his one they had uffisit was withdrawn about twelve months budget, which would give iem a margin of 10 millions to ago from the Pacific. They had only one vessel deal with. Ile proposed that, instead of 191 millions of 34 guns employed; all the rest were gun-brigs being expended in the army and nary, they should of from 10 to 10 guns, which they used as a go bock to the expenditure of 1834-5, which was police force in time of peace. (Ilear, hear.) lie from 12 to 14 millions. There was a margin there was ready to admit that England had political rule of five millions and • half to begin with. lie Done which the United States of America had not. But would undertake to make that reduction, and leave the even in that point of view our policy was objectionable. services more efficient than they now were. The interest To what country did they usually look for a juaitication of of the debt amounted to 28 millions, and they were told the large armamenbt they kept up. The right hon. gentle they could not touch it. lie did not want to touch it. Ile man invoked the example of France us a precedent for should be very sorry to break faith, but he thought that by keeping up u large navy. But wan it not singular that in taking a comprehensive view, by . economy, and n•treneh- the bureau on the trench navy our example was quitted as meet, they might lower it by pay ing their debts like honest a justification for keeping up a large war navy in France. men. Then there was the civil lia, which they were told It this was an emirate statement, the, example of this they could not meddle with. Ile Was sorry that ministers country stimulated the increase of naval armaments in had not recommended a revision of thee civil list. Not that France. If it was inaccurate, why did they so frequently he would take a farthing from her Majesty, who had rather quote the example of France? (Hear, hear.) He might too little. Out of 385,0001., she had only 60,0001. All the also read extracts from the epteelies of M. Thiess rest was frittered away in useless array. There were forty- and M. Lamartine to show that they measured their five lords and ladies iu waiting, shreda of the aristocracy, own navy by the standard of England. They were satin whose salaries ran away with a great portion of the allow- fled with keeping up two-thirds of our force, hut if we e, c ee ro re w i n rrie re ee i rr enu r e j a f , I w y ti a ch , r re b l e at e t re p i lit e io f n i .. re ( n l r l e e , a l r e , r h t e b a e r m .) when iit t:n w d liat o e t ri t t y rb ot ee et anise, and who were paid for attending un a went on to augment our navy they must keep theirs in a few w re administered great d Fromby the th e and Forests, and whore administration absorbed nearly the large armaments was upon the finances of France. (Hear, whole amount that they received, they might procure hear.) Why, that the finances of that country, whilst they ample funds for the payment of all the expenses that the were strengthening their navy ut a frightful cost, were in a civil list need he put to. They might sell the ',miscast, state of confusion that the wisest and ablest men of the and apply the income to that purpose . They found no country saw no possibility of escape from the financial difficulty in selling estates in Ireland, and they would find difficulty. (Hear, hear.) Let it nut he forgotten no difficulty in selling the crown estates. Then the that they were now voting a sum of 5,700,000/. But atisc l,Bso %l oo lazus rbe e e x g prdi b t e ure wo m o ight ner be 2,300,0001. for diplomatic services, judges, and other that was not all, for though they separuted the packet cut eut dow d r those e se f rvi r t f r rom . t r l r o i e ee nav ar y, he ee re re n b ard irr e u d nd th e e r 800 the, 001 ,1 1 t e . n o o n , ac c ount nbrati o who really did the work. And then there was another of the naval service, because the vessels engaged great item on which reductions might be made. The eel in the packet retake were in reality most formidable lection of the revenue cost more than seven million*. The war 'steamers (Hear ' hear.) Cunard's ships were capable customs department coat three millions, and it could be o f carrying the heaviest guns, and there were not such for better done fur two. 'f he house had not been fairly dealt m id a bl e b oa t s i n th e roya l se . vice. He therefore considered with in this matter. The house had twice resolved that that what they were now virtually voting was not the coot of collecting the revenue should he brought into ac- 3,700,000., but 6,500,000/. , which the Chancellor of the count, but that had nut been done ; and there were seven Exchequ e r stated as . the cos t of the navy. (Hear.) There millions of revenue which never came under their control. was but 19,500,000/. which before he house to be lie recollected in 1821, showing that collectors of assessed voted, and o i th a t sum, ' 15 000,001; t 1. wlafor the an y, na vy , taxes had collected monies that they had nut accounted for; an d ordnance. (Hear, hear.) Now, they str er e l esked te and Mr. Herrin* plumed an set to prevent that kind I vote more than a quarter of the whole sum, and if they of thing. But they went on still in the old way. I voted this without any scrutiny , without sa y reduction We had not a single colony in which there did not exist I whatever. Mow was it p ossible for the: with • i any crowns dissatisfaction at the childish trammels in which they were I tency, - of to vote or a reduc t ion the taxation of the country kept, for the sake of extensive patronage being exercised by (Hear, hear.) Unless they reduced the expenditure the government at home. The days fur this were gone by. I could nut reduce the taxation. (Hear, heir.) lion. gen- They should now consider whether England might not be tlemen who sought transfer the nCarden from one set of relieved of the expense of 8,000 or 10,000 men in Canada. shoulders to another amt of shoulders would fail • .sworn- Should the necessity arise, we could never send 20,n00 or ptishin that object . ( Hear , g 30,000 troops there to maintain that colony ; it was impos- , in the country who would bear more taxation, an al sible. They had their own government, they should be ' and relieve it to try by throwing it on the shoulders tit' somebody called on to pay their own expense. Looking at the amount ; nee wasqui te 'elle . Th e only n t . b way to do it was by reducing of the miscellaneous estimates, upwards of 3,900,000/ , it thered ucing the number of men to was impossible to deny that there might be a conside rable I 30,00r e wIleV ee— ' Ilido was only '23,000, and it was with that reduction made in every item, except the vote for eduea- ! view and that conviction that he supported the motion of tion; that he would increase. He would thus ' his hon. friend. (Cheers.) lessen the cost of crime, rain the morality of I Lord J. RUSSELL he wou con said that ld fi his bee o r the country, and put the people in a better ; anion* to the u • of q estton the number of men, and would position than they could by building gaols and filling them not• enter into the question of the dockyards and other as they were now doing. The hon. gentleman concluded by moving a resolution, declaring that it was the duty f the Admiralty. Still less disposed wee he to go over the the house to take into its serious consideration in what manner, and to what extent, the number of men could be I her for Montrose, who, though not having been sent for by reduced without detriment to the public service; also de- her M on a late occasion, had, nevertheless , fiellowea clueing that the African squadron was inefficient, and au ' eta to be dispensed with. the examp)c of Lord Stanley and entered into an expel would have adopted if he had been tion of the policy h • The CHAIRMAN said it was not competent for the hon. fortunate enema to find gentlemen who would have takes member to propose in committee of supply a • resolution of office with him (I slighter ) He did nt m differ from this kind pledging the house to a certain course. The vote the hon. gentle m an the • me m ber for the o Weat Riding who before the committee was as to a certain number of men; said that the q uestion ofthexpense ver y mu ch decided ideel was and the question was whether the committee would adopt • by the number of men. (Hear, hear.) lie could not, or negative that vote. ' however, agree with the honourable member that, Mr. HUME then said he would propose as an amend- because there agai nst wastefulness meet that the number be 30,000, instead of 39,000 men. in t h e doc k y ards an and outcry Mr. MACGREGOR said that every member ought to ' against political patronise!, Which he said entirely Infected every person employed in find great difficulty in coming to a vote of expenditure the dockyards, these accusa tions were well founded. (Hears without being acquainted with the mesas of meeting that bass .) He belie yed that a great deal of the wasteful/wag