The Express. — London, England, 1847-04-24 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. 120 USE OF LORDB.—Faumor, Arau. 23. The Loan Citdloll.l.oll leek Ide inalt away Were the redo*. PUBLIC BUSUMIL PICITI1014&—Ity Lard Lerriaden, hoe the board of denians of the asombeidge Wel aplast the Peer moral Act, and la km: of a amain et areirad foamy; Uri Inemnsim hem the of a psi In Oterewere te We mew WWI; the Deis et Lem so We same teen an neriwyme senoras% In the meaty af Giosso•••; drew • perish Is Own, ikon She pwashial mhealmente tars sad Orem et the p mihrimy et Wm She the lieslastins Birth% an, Plattlel) BB; bow the Inialdnato et Irma, le favour ef Me inammenetessOswwo Dam* Asylum ; and hese the andennew *Wag tee the Waimea Mines adr a l 11••••• • la tamer et Ihe Seam Teasmseas SIB; time Lee( Demur, heat etlnkis4 Is Meilen to sweetie Arm ef the Pear MI Ms Maw et ietwaseetths Otreenr unit plea et ; Lord ensure, awn the laird lispir and thiperadas Delmin, Iran the Distillers et Leaden rid he Wrathy, L ord Web leek breams,. u s e Kitimeneek mid by ord Mesirmese, nee pella I n animal sled Scot land, man* the Caster' Deans Bill. dFICOND REA DI-Cnetons Duties WM ROYAL COMMISSION. The assent of the crown was given be royal commission to the following hills:--Ersh quer Bills; Mutiny; Marine Mutiny; Indemnity; Markets and Fairs Clauses; Gas Works Clauses; Commissioners Classes: Water works Clauses; Troops during Elections; General Register Rouse Edinburgh; and District Fire Insurance Company of Bir mingham; Tne commisvioners were, the Lord Chancellor, the Earl of Minto (Lord Privy Seal), and the Marquis of Clanricarde (l'ostmaster General). The back benches were tilled with ladies who came down to witness this ceremonial, the first of the kind encrusted in " her Majesty's new palace at West minster." - - • INCUMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND) BILL. The Earl of WICKLOW begged to ask the noble and 'game I lord on the woolsack when it was his intention to move the second reading of this bill. The session was fast advancing, and the bill had been upan their lordships' table for aconniderable time. The LORD CHANCELLOR replied, that in consequence of information which had reached him from Ireland, he had beea induced to change the shape or the bill, but he would now give notice of his intention to move the second reading on Tuesday neat. NEW BISHOPRICS COMMISSION. The Mar9uia of LANSDOWNE pre:anted (by command of her Majesty) the first report of the commissioners ap• pointed to inquire into the state of the bishoprics in England and Wales. ....... THE LATE EXECUTION AT BURY ST. EDMUNDS. The noble M•SQUIS, referring to a question put to him on a formsr evening by his noble friend behind him (the Mar quis of Westmeath) on the subject of the recent execution at Bury St. Edmunds, observed, that front the statement made by his noble friend, the house would have been led to believe that great want of order and. decorum had been ex hibited on an occasion when the utmost solemnity and regularity ought to be observed. The unfortunate wo man who underwent capital punishment had been convicted of murder, of which she confessed herself to be guilty, and it had been stated by the noble marquis, on newspaper authority, that the execution had been carried into effect in a manner most revolting to the feelings of the populace, who gave utterance to language of execration in consequence of the sufferings of the unhappy woman being greatly aggravated. He (the Marquis of Lansdowne) had caused inquiries to be made, and be was able to inform the noble marquis that no occurrence of the kind stated had taken place. On the contrary, the whole of the painful proceedings hid been conducted with the greatest de- cornea and solemnity, and the unfortunate culprit did not suffer in any greater degree than was u.ual. He the Mar quis of Lansdowne) had in his possession a letter from the clergyman who attended the wretched woman in her last moments, and he stated that she expressed herself fully satisfied with the attentions which had been shown to ber I by the authorities, and he added that noti.ing could exceed the awe and effect which attended the moment of her execution. The Marquis of WESTMEATH was understood to ex press himself satisfied with the explanation, and the matter dropped CUSTOMS DUTIES BILL. Lord STANl:ii3OnpreseiTitiogiheinveral petitions en trusted to him against the Customs Duties Bill, observed that he felt it might save time in reference to the debate which was about to arise on that measure, if he stated some what is detail the purport of the petition which he had to present from the distillers resident in and in the neighbour hood of the metropolis. Those who were not conversant with the subject would be surprised to hear that the number of those petitioners did not exceed eight, and that, in fact, the whole of the distillers of England were in the hands of ten individuals. The cause, he begged to remark, of this apparent close monopoly of so large a branch of the industry of the country was not merely the advantage which large capital possessed over smell capital, but still more the legislative restrictions imposed by parliament,—restrictions which unnecessarily, except ( or fiscal purposes, required a large amount of capital, and which practically confined the blamer of distillers to those persons who could command a largeramount of capital than, but for the restrictive laws, was necessary to carry on that branch of the manufactures of the country. Although these petitioners were only eight is number, the interests of their vast concsrns might be measured by the fact that the duties of excise paid upon the article produced by them eight gentlemen amounted to no less than 3,100,0001. per amine; the whole excise duties on spirits manufactured in the united kingdom were 6,000,0000/., of which the petitioners paid 3,100,0001., and in the course of their trade used 1,300,000 quarters of grain in the course of each year. Therefore, although the number of petitioners was small, the interests they represented were very great, and consequeutly legislation with respect to them ought in proportion to be carefully . considered. The petitioners stated that the exist ing law anipmel upon them the necessity of brewing and distilling alternately; that this virtually deprived them of half the time they might when to their trade, and compelled them to erect works on a scale of more than double the magnitude than was necessary. This led to an unnecessary increase of expenditure, and in practice prevented their adoption of improvements which science pointed out, and placed them in a dis advantageous position as regarded competition with other manufacturers. The article manufactured by the petitioners was known by the name of " raw spirit," and he must mention that there was this difference between the English distillers and those of Scotland and Ireland. The spirit distillers of Ireland distilled chiefly from raw grain, but some distilled from malt. In Scotland, they distilled wholly from malt ; but in England, the manufacturer of spirits distilled entirely from raw grain, and hence the spirits they produced were known by the name of " raw spirits." To bring those spirits into cinsumption in this country, it was necessary that they should go through the prose's of rectification, which, however, was not permitted to be car ried on within a quarter of a mile from the premises in which the previous process of distillation was performed. Hence, ander the existing laws, the English distiller was ,obliged to have no less than three distinct places of manefocture, though the whole process might be gone through within the same premises, at a great saving both of capital and cost. The petitioners made no complaint of these regulations in the abstract, but desired to bring to the recollection of the house what had been done by the legislature. Au offer had been made by the government to increase the duty of sixpence to ninepenee, which, unimportant as it might seem, made a difference of fifteen to twenty per cent. on the whole value of articles au bject to taxation. The petitioners prayed their lordships to avert the ruin which would be brought on them by passing this bill, and that they might be allowed to state their case before • select committee. He had also several other petitions from the distillers of Islay, Koss, Inverness, Sutherlandshire, and Kilmarnock, in Scotland, on the same subject, stating the 'the Scotch distillers, besides the excise restrictions, had a further complaint, inumuch as they had to pay the duty on malt, and that the distillers of Inlay and others in the north of Scotland caused much improvement in agriculture and increased the cultivation of land. . . Lord 110NTEAOLE in presenting petitions from the Scotch and Irish distillers, praying fur a select committee, said they did not ask for protective duties, and complained that colonial spirits might be kept in bond ; and the duty wan only paid when they were taken out, whereas British spirits must pay it. It was a cue that required close inves tigation, and ought to be referred to a select committee. The Earl of CLARENDON in moving the mond reading of the bill, said that no eppesitioa to the principle of the bill was intended. The Brithi old colonial prodneare of spirits claimed to be placed on perfect equality, and the government had no other object in this bin. It was aim& to estimate the money value of the proem of distillation, and the ex aggerated statements of the dhtillers, and the eennterwtate- Rents of the Weet India predawn incurred that didisalty. His right hon. friend the Cluaredier of the linehequirhavirig last year publicly undertaken te he prepared thie swim to bring before parliament a reined= el the duty, applied himself to the subject, and haling winsulted different parties interested as well as the offklais of the excise, felt no doubt that a differential duty of sixpence would be sufficient to meet the jus:ice of the ewe, and to cover any extra expense to which the British pore were subject, and from which the wiestial produewe was free. Afterwards, finding that swim the smsdisato of the bill there was a ipmet miens is to the operation the duty, in order to secure Melt sonsaresee he sorosted to add fift y per cent. to the differeskol duty, and it wee fixed at ninepenoe. By this he ewes& himself to the eharge of inconsistency, and dintielled the West Indio interest; but the House of Owner sautiegiod hie propseition by • majority of 177. As the Hum of Citonsams woo endstod that a protective duty of W. wasonffiniumt, and s.efeto mark all who desired fMr asannition and sot , be was taro 'rued that the nide asks (11konoor) whited ter friar inquiry. The duty • amSO& ipM e w a t i t i WI, an la. gd, sod on Dirk Id. Tin duty wee benorly for the three countries Is. 6d., bat it lied been redeed to le., and it now proposed to make it AL, making the Import duty Is. 74. for England, 44. 6d. fee Soidand, and as. AL tor Ireland. The distillers chained 1.. 4et,wlie the Witt India interest main tained that IL was onospb, sod that alb whit key weld wit aesspola wkh this.. The hens um whir\ kb was Mod won r flante:—The fist was 11. kw the vats. ditty, . hut ao damp was new as duty on Ms. than would he so allomamot kw that. The seat woe lei. hr wit the third 11 hr the tanuand expense kr additional pun t s, ' ash foorittly, 4d., at ea ellownee vrbat IMO Mai as say. whereas It, in het, way emesated te a halfunty. The filth item woe Id., for die inn rapine of reettfire sa operate pontom, of whisk 2id. woo far mak. Bat, if nettled ea their ewe pew Nam, they onaglan nwaned plod, midi was nail tose=att lain the anomma key thammives diorg villt oti hit plank, whiff maw to ham off, ka IK. shad is the clay node lit tad am this ri4ll l We that Tight ham. kkri Anita IL at 1 .. w b et nook enellsr, man non rpm, when the eats-liew of 1813 was in operation, and slave labour existed in the West ladies ; but, in consideration of the ex cise duties, and the expense of distilleries, the differential duty was shed to Is. &L •• but Mr. ooulburn, when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, in 1830, thought it so urgent that be determined to reduce it to Is., but was prevented doing so by his going out of office. With regard to the Scotch and Irish distillers, they claimed a larger protection in consequence of the greater quantity of malt which they used. The whole duty on malt was le. 4c1., and it was formerly allowed to the Scotch distillers as a drawback, solely to enable them to compete with illicit distillation. i In 1832 a committee of the House of Commons recommended that the drawback should be reduced, although th re was much malt spirit distilled in Ireland, but no drawback was allowed at the request of the distillers themselves, as it give rise to fraud. The Irish distillers said that they used more malt than the English, and that lid. was not enough, hut that they required 2W. ; they did not, however rectify un separate premises. If they allowed the claim of the &cote h di-tiller on the ground of his using malt, and thereby admitted the principle that the amount of protection should depend upon the ingre dients used in the distillation of the sp:rit, the English dis tiller would not be slow to advance the same claim, and if they gave a protection to the one became he distilled from malt, he could not see how they could refuse it to the other who distilled from raw grain. Theee was no ground for the alle gation that Scotch and Irish spirits did nut come fairly into competition with English spirits. The quantity distilled in England was 6i millions of gallons. The quantity impelled from Scotland was 2,130,000; and from Ireland. 1,400,000 gallon: together, three-and-a-half millions of gallons, which was equal to three-fifths of the whole quan tity distilled in England. Then, with regard to there being any real ground of &pp', pension that colonial spirit would to any extent displace those of British manufacture in the home market. The whole consumption of spirits in this country, at the present time, was about '26,000,000 of gallons annually, whereof only some 2,000,000 were rum; and inasmuch as the whole industry of our sugar growing colonies was now directed to the improvement of the manufacture of sugar, and as such improve ment would necesssrily diminish the production of rum, there was no probability of there being any great li increase in the expo' tof that articie. lie trusted their lord shim would not agree to the proposition of which the noble ' duke (Montrose) had given notice, to refer this bill to a select committee; but that they would follow the course which had been pursued in the other house, and refuse to alter a mea sure which bed been brought in by the government, on the conviction that it would afford eqbal protection and equal bustice to all the interests concerned. He moved that the ill be now read a second time. . Lord STANLEY understood that the government bad brought forward this measure entirely apart from the gene ral question of free trade, but that the principle upon which the bill was founded was the equitable adjustment of the claims of the colonial and the British distillers. (Hear, hear.) He and those of his friends who took the same view asked for no preference on behalf of the British producer as against the colonial ; they were, therefore, perfectly pre pared to meet his noble friend on the ground of placing the parties on a footing of perfect equality ; and the only ques tion to determine was the figure at which the differential duty should be fined. This he contended was a matter which it was far more convenient should be decided by a select committee than by the house itself. lie thought there would be no objection to the bill being read a second time, and the discussion taken afterwards it the noble earl wished it. After a few words from the Earl of CLARENDON, The Duke of MONTROSE rose to move, pursuant to his notice, to refer the bill to a select committee. All the British distiller demanded was to be put upon a footing of equality with his colonial rival—he solicited no nazi advan tage, but to be placed in a position to be enabled fairly to compete with the colonial producer. The excise regulations, from which the colonial distiller was altogether free, entailed groat loss upon the British distiller. This the distil. lee, who had petitioned on the subject undertook to prove if a committee were granted, and also that such loss had not been taken into account in the present measure. This of itself he contended was a sufficient ground for referring the biU to a select committee. The case of the Scotch distiller was one of peculiar hardship as compared with that of the colonial distiller. Spirits could only be sent from Scotland to England by sea, and as the duty on all British spirits was levied previous to their going into bond, it followed that if a cask was staved on the pas sage, not only did the distiller lose his spirits, but the duty also ; whereas the duty on rum was not payable until it was taken out of bond for consumption is this country. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated in the other house, that as Scotch spirits came free'y into competition with English spirits, no hardship was inffilted on the Scotch distillers, and hart also stated that the reduction of the draw back from id. to fid. had not operated prejudicially to them. Formerly, the duty on Scotch spirits was tie. 2d. ; now it was 3s. Bd. ; but, notwithstanding that reduction, the quantity of malt spirits distilled in Scotland bed decreased from 6,466,000 gallons in 1834, to 5,368,000 in 1845. Mr. Goulburn had alleged that the Scotch distillers had overstated their ease, and that he did not believe the duty would amount to more than Is. 4d. To support this assertion that right hon. member stated that a large quantity of Scotch whisky was made from bete. The right hon. gentleman's notions regarding Scotland were somewhat ante diluvian, seeing that it was many years since bee had been seed in the manufacture of whisky in that country. (Hear, hear.) But, supposing it were so, it happened that from the nature of the excise regulations the &stairs were compelled to draw less spirits from here than from barley, and conse quently the duty came to nearly the same amount. Bu' the distillers were prepared Nether to prove that, under the pro posed bill, the duty would amount to Is. 10d. or Is, lid. the 'Tenon. He trusted that if government persisted in depriving the distiller of bin differential duty, they would also remove those vexatious excise regulations by which his trade was crippled. But for them he might have an extensive export trade, as was already the case with beer, and that would be some compensation for the rivalry of foreign spirits in the home market. With respect to the Irish distillers, he would leave them in the hands of a noble lord who was intimately acquainted with the subject, merely making this one obser vation, that they looked Lpon the bonding system by which they paid duty on all the whisky lost during its detention in the warehouse, ss a very great hardship. He thought he had proved the Scotch "Heinen to be suffering great hardship from the excise regulations, and that they were at least entitled to the existing coun tervailing duty. (Hear, hear.) The noble duke concluded by moving that the bill be referred to a select committee. The Earl of EGLINTON seconded the motion. By the proposed bill the Scotch distiller would be left with so little protection as te entirely annihilate his trade. He begged their lordships to remember that trade in Scotland numbered 250 distillers, had embarked in it half • mil lion of capital, employed many thousand men, and contributed one million and a half annually to the revenue. They would hardly, he hoped, by one false and hasty step, run the risk of destroying so important a trade. (Hear, hear.) Lord CAMPBELL, who was bet imperfectly audible, was understood to say, that the noble duke who moved the amendment had not spoken on one of the arguments of the noble earl who had moved the second reacting of the bill. There was a strong prima facie case in favour of the go. vernment. They could have no motive in introducing this measure but the public good; nor could it be said to be in any view of the case a party question. From all the informa tion he had been able to obtain, he thought that sixpence would bean ample indemnity fee the distillers, but instead of that the government had raised the differential duty to nine pence. The bill had received the fullest consideration in the other house of parliament, and a majority of 170 had decided in its favour. He did not think that its peeling would give any encouragement to illicit distillation; the only question was, whether it would increase the duty on rum. The Duke of RICHMOND was of opinion that all the two noble lords opposite had advanced, went to prove that the bill ought to be referred to a select committee. Lord STANLEY said it might be very true that the I question of free trade did not enter into this discussion, but the question of justice did—of justice to an important branch of industry, menaced, as those engaged in it affirmed, with destruction by the measure now before their lordships. The threepence in question might appear a small matter, but let it be recollected that this threepence per gallon wss upon an article, the intrinsic value of which wag only two shillings. He believed that no one could charge him with • disposition to act unfairly towards the West I Ad', oroprie tors ; he had taken an active part in recommending to par liament, in favour of the West India proprietors, one of the largest peeunisry sacrifices ever made by this country. (Hear, hear.) But neither West India proprietors, nor East Indian, nor Cuban, nor Brazilian, had any right to ask for greater advantages in the British market than were en joyed by our own immediate countrymen. (Hear, hear.) The distillers of this country did not shrink from competition on equal terms with any other distillers ; but they said that this measure would place them on terms of utter inequality with colonial and foreign distillers ; and they asked to be allowed to confirm this state ment by the evidence they were prepared to adduce. These things altogether depended on accurate calculs lion ; twopence, • penny, nay, • halfpenny, more or less, made all the difference, and, therefore, not a step ought to be taken until the perfect 'minty of the calculation upon which the step proceeded had been clearly ascertained. (Hear, hear.) The committee of the House of Commons in 1834, under the chairmanship of Bir Henry Parnell, pub lished in its report seven folio pages exhibiting in detail the restrictions placed by excise regulations upon the process of distillation in this country. The distillers here did not so moth comp/sin of these restrictions as that they should be called upon to compete, under their burden, with other dia. tillers whom no such restrictions impeded. The West India planters were allowed to distil from molasses, but this our own distillers were strictly prohibited to do, or the case would be very different. Earl GREY said that after the able and compre hensive speech of his noble friend, it would be unnecessary for him to trouble their lordship!' at any length, the more so that neither in statement nor in argument had his noble friend's speech been controverted by noble lords opposite. H. himself, as a matter of opinion, retained the conviction that 'depose would be the fairer differential duty, but government had consented to make it ninepence, for the simple and sufficing reason that they had good reason to believe that the miller sum would not receive the sanction of either home. He did not understand what advantage could aria from referring this bill to a select committee : th wh e i re eli:Targeeen now t wes tftis to t6 be be feem ei t i r d we ; re all alread the y fa r ful)eat uP" detail bake the hoses. A eenuaittee could do no more lin tlxs th. dr a ize iimit iLin a thinitheaeßyedLielat elyffiffircotren.siot,...i:ifimerentLf:,dm.bthareyiy: not to be of that th e authority of • repast of • @sleet committee thet lordships, carried by gig three to two, was to govern the decision utv=,, s g ar (Hear.) The noble viscount proceeded to contend that under the preset corn law, was as high • discriminati ng " duty as could be fairly deskaadad by the British diedlisi. That the Scotch and Irish distillers were well off, was proved by the fact that they were enabled in the English market to compete with the English distiller, in spite of those onerous reetrie4oas upon thew to which the noble duke (Montrose) apposite had, alioded. By a reformat to figures he (Earl Grey) yield pave that of the whole quantity of spirits con. sawed in the waited kingdom, the proportion of English distilled sprite wee very little more than so five to four, as ampere' with the amount of Scotch and Irish spirits, there fore, he reputed the Scotch and Irish distillers had no real ground for complaint. (fi,ar, hear.) lie (Earl Grey) trusted that for theso reason', without going into minute cal culations, he had shown that the bill now before their lord ship would du no injustice to the British distiller, whether he carried on his trade in England, Scotland, or Ireland ; but, if nut, heearnest ly entreated their lordship' not to reject the bill. Last year the legislature had consented to pass a measure, by which the col iota producer of sugar would, in a very short time, be expo-ed to unrestricted competition in the British markets. In the fivancial difficulties of this year, that mea sure had been of inestimable service, and it promised to be of equal service for the future. (Hear, hear.) It was not to be denied it had created the greatest alarm among the colonists, and also the English farmers. (Hear, hear.) But he was happy to inform their lordship' that measure, as also the act for allowing sugar to be used in breweries and distilleries, together with the prospect of good crops, had tended greatly to mitigate the alarm which lathe first instance existed in the colonies. By the last advice' which he bad received, he was happy to tied a more cheerful tone prevsiled among the colonists, and that they were looking forward, by means of increased exertions, to meet the competition to which the last year's legislation exposed them, and he must say that after having so exposed them tot their own welfare, and for the well are of this country, it would be an act not easy to justify, if their lordship should, by rejecting this bill, dash the cup of hope from their lips, and disappoint the high expectations which had been raised. (Hear, hear.) He earnestly hoped their lordships would not be induced to take that course ;—if this measure was allowed to pass he was sanguine —(and every day's eaperience made him more so) — that in a very rig years the condition of the colonists would be unproved, while, on the other hand, he could conceive no course so calcu :aril to shake the coutidenee of the colonists in the British parliament—to injure their trade and with their to de the revenues of this country, as to reject this bill sent up by so overwhelming a majority composed of ono of all parties in the other house of parlia ment. He believed that it would be impossible that the production of rum in the colonies could be carried to a point that could injuriously affect the English distiller, and, there fore, the apprehensions in that respect were utterly vision .ry. On the whole he was perfectly persuaded that, by adopting this bill, their lordships would do standard justice to the colonists, and he could not believe their lordship would be induced to reject the bill by sending it to a select committee Up stairs. (Hear, hear). Lord MONTEAOLE remarked that there never was • class of manufeetwers who had been exposed by the legiMa- Lure to so many alternations and so much practical injimitice as the distillers of the three kingdoms, England, Scotland, and Ireland. He admitted that the case on both sides had to-night been most ably opened and discussed ; there was no contest of principle ; the struggle was as to detail, and the decision upon those details were peculiarly fitting for a select committee. The distillers did not seek the re jection of the bii', but by their petition made the very mo derate request 64 there should be an inquiry. Acting in perfect consistence with the course he had taken with re ference to the sultiect, he should give his hearty support to the amendment proposed by the noble duke opposite (Montrose). Their lordships then divided. Fer the original motion 57 For the amendment The bill was th,:n read a wooed time, and the house ad journed at half-past nine o'clock to Monday neat. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—FRIDAY, APRIL 23. The Speaker t ,ok the chair at four o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. PETITIONS—Bp against the Bury and Ipswich 3W. Lord SAI.DON, two petitions in favour of the Liverpool Watenrorlia Bill. Mr. D.MITTOUM, wo rt the North Brßritish ie ilail vey Si L Mr. Loco aepainet the f and Perth beltway and other Scotch railway WM. BEX)ND RRADINGIL—Batheiek Church; Imperial Continental orddield,Oes Amchitka • liingutortun,N Itc. Rates; Puyne's Patents Atrt ; Elba it e ltTo.—oleheter, Lour Valley, Sudbury, and Halstead Rail way (attention to Mefferd, Lev, abate, and CLee); Great Northern Railway (deviations between Peterbotough, Beaton, and Gains borough); Bills. THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 24, .1847. PUBLIC BIJEITEISS. PL•TMONS.—By Mr. TANCRY.D. from • place In Gioncester. shire, in [lncur of the government scheme of education; Lord J. RCS.AII., from Dean snd Chapter of Norwich sad others, in favour of the scheme; Mr 0. iirsewron, from Ports. mouth ; Dr. Bowman, a petition, whence not heard, in faronr of the scheme; &r W. CLAY, several petitions; Mr. ROLBUCX, • petition ; Mr. BRION; from s place in Lincolnshire; Alderman lirliPlfitly, a petition ; Cept. PieI.NLL, from Newhaven and another place. —Mr. T. Domounsa, irom Wesleyan. of the county of Notting ham, against the scheme.—Various other petitions, fur and against the scheme, were presented by other boa memben, but in so hurried a manner ere iolprevent the powibildy of particularising them. FIRST ItEADING.—Poor Persons' Removal Act Amendment MIL .--..._. _ ._______ _ SECOND KEADlNG.—llighways BM. REPOltTA—Rovhdale Water Works Bill; Lunatics' Asylum. 11171U9.74 ORDEKED.—On the motion of Uptain Piccolo-a, re turn, showing the particulars of the several dishments ounatstu ting thedifferenee between theounis 1,1321. 184.10 d. and 1684.14. Ild, paid as the net proceeds of Medan vessels, Jehovah and Dien, into the Vie,Admlnilty Court at the Ceps of Oced line, on the 12th day I of December, 1642, and the 6th day of December, 1846, respectively, and the sum. of 1,2021. 7 4 em. and 1831. 3 4 9d., being the *roe proceeds of sale of these mewls reepeadrely, lees the sane of 4761. lee. 91.1. end 1734. 174 nanetkusad la the return presentedon the 13th day of April, 1647. NOTICE OF MU 17071.—Onagre FOR IRRIAIFIR —Mr. ROF.BUCR, on an early day, to move for the amount of money *thawed tor the relief of [rash distress, how raised, and how applied. PRSOFFURRIS' Ann.—Mr. HAIRE% on Monday seat, to move for leave to bring Ina hid to amend there acts. BATRWICR CHURCH BILL. Mr. W. MILES moved the second reading of this bill. Mr. ROEBUCK oppoeed the motion, oa the ground that the trustees, who had the power of levying rates and re ceiving pew-rents, ought to have applied t►ose lands, dur ing the last 35 years, in discharge of the existing debt, in stead of which they had applied them to the payment of the curate. The trustees had also suffered their number to fall so low, that they were incompetent to set ; and now they sought the sanction of parliament to cover their own Inches. The consent of the parish might be pleaded ; but they had no right to come here until after they had sought the usual legal remedies. He moved that the bill be read a second time this day six months. Mr. MILES said the funds bed been applied strictly to ec clesiastical purposes. This bill bad become necessary, on account of a refusal to levy further rates. He admitted the Inches on the part of the trustees, in allowing their number to be diminished. 1.;r1151.T1 7 16iN supported the amendment. The courts of law had decided against the legality of the rate, and this was an attempt to reverie that decision. Lord W. POWLETT said the application had been sanc tioned by a majority of four to one in the parish. The bill ought, at all events, to be allowed to go into committee. Mr. DICKINSON supported the second reading. Mr. ESTCOURT said the trustees oould pursue no other course than that of an application to parliament. The alle gation et the hoe. member for Bath, that the trustees had misapplied the funds to purposes of their own, was wholly unfounded. Mr. H. BERKELEY said the parishioners had offered to pay off the debt when the trustees were seven in number, but they had refused, and they were now reduced to five, and had consequently boat the power to act. The house then divided—For the second reading 71 Against it On our re-admission to the gallery, Mr. Hume was ad dressing the house, stating that he had voted against this bill, solely for the purpose of opposing taxation on the parish, but without any acquaintance with the merits of the bill ; and he did not believe that half-a-dozen members in the house knew its merits. He mentioned this to show the ne cessity of some alteration in the system of conducting private After a few words from Mr. HUDSON, and Mr. M. J. O'COYNELL, the bill was read a wand time. IdESSAGIE FROM THE LORDS. A few minati before ifteo'cirreT, Sir A. Clifford, the Usher of the Blau I. Rod, appeared at the bar, and summoned the Speaker to attend in the House of Lards, to hear the royal assent 4iven to certain bills. Being the first occasion on which this cereinAny has been performed in the new house, nearly all II e members present accompanied the Speaker. On their return, the Speaker announced the titles of the bills, for list of which, see the Lords' report. TRENT VALLEY RAILWAY. . _ Mr. NEViiiiid oared that the house should take into consideration the pathos Moths to the Trent Valley Railway, presented by Orr inhihilimns Nuneaton, complaining of the :great Premesmiense . wielng from a level crossing of that railway in tholigh-road i n that town. He hoped that that leveladd cres shig " not be al lowed to be taken as a precedent in future. The company had refused to construct a bridge, which would obviate the difficulty. He hoped the house would take the matter Into consideration, and that the right hon. gentleman opposite would suggest some means of doing away with the difficulty. Mr. STRUTT said that the railway board had already paid some attention to the subject, and en officer of en gineers had been sent down to inquire into the matter, when both parties were heard on the spot, and from the report made Mappeared that the company were willing to contri bute a certain sum to the construction of the bridge, but the inhabitants refused to contribute a shilling. He did not know what further step he could take in the matter. Hem the subject dropped. HARWICH RAILWAYS. Sir R. PEEL said, that in the absence of the right hen. member for Cambridge university (Mr. Goulburn), he would ask the house to take into consideration the petition relating to the Harwich railways, and move that it be referred is the board of 001111Milii0Dirl to inquire which was the more eligible of the two competing lines. The two bills had been twice before parliament, but were thrown ont in consequence of the standing orders of the hones riot being complied with. As it was of great importance that some railway should be constructed in order to form a commu nication between Harwich and the metropolis, he hoped that his motion would be acceded to. Mr. lITEUTT said, that under the peculiar eircumeances XUr am, be bad no objection to accede to the right hon. boroeses =dor. Alter ; few ;Owls from Mr. Renews aid Major Bawls- PORD, the isotion was agreed to. CIVIL WAR IN PORTUGAL. _ _ . . . . Sly D. L. iiizNs in q uired the result of the interces sion of the British government with that of Portugal, coo cerning the generals and trope who were lately granted an honourable capitulation by Marshal Saldenha, and who are said to have been since transported to the penal and un healthy colony of Angola. Lord J. RUSSELL baying referred to the fact, said the mead assigned by the government of Portugal for trans ' porting the generals and troops to Angola was, that they hid friends sad confederates in Lisbon, and it was therefore made ID allow them to TONlaill there. This reason was not iesaildierst milieleet b the British government, and our ehare ast ebtreinebad sameenwently represented very strongly the at Ids severemmit the subject, which repre sents*. wet bared would have tie desired effect, bet as et rte Isteiligesse had bum reserved that the order so justly scesplaineer of bad boss COUlarina.tlpd BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. In answer to a question from Captain PECH Lax, Lord J. RUSSELL 'aid he could not at present name any day on which the Health of Towns Bill would be proceeded with, but perhaps it would be convenient for him to state what the course of proceeding would be with respect to sere. ral measures now under the consideration of the house. On the supposition that the house would that night close the debate on the subject of education, he should propose that the report be received on Monday ; and alter that his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exch. quer wished to take a vote in order to enable the Exchequer Loan Com missioners to advance some large sums of money for certain railways in Ireland which they were enabled to borrow ac cording to the usual rules. His right hon. friend the Secre tary for the Home Depariment then proposed to take into consideration the Prison Bill, and on that question he (Lord J. Russell) presumed the debate on transportation would arise. On Friday he should propose to take two bills with relation to Ireland—one with regard to the board of super vision of the poor laws, and the other with respect to vagrancy in Ireland. Os Monday. the 3rd of May, he had consented to give way is favour of the thrd reading of the Factory Bill; and on Monday, the 10th of May, he pro posed to go on with the Railway Bill which had been brought in by his right hon, friend the chief commissioner of rsilweye. PRISON DISCIPLINE. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE inquired whether the Secretary of State for the Home Department had received a report with reference to the complaint which he (Mr. Dtancombe) had made as to the treatment of convicts in the hulks at Wool wich ? He thought it most desirable that such report should be presented to the house before they proceeded with the Prisons Discipline Bill. Sir G. GREY had not veeivtd the report, but when it was made there would be no occasion for delay in presenting it to the house. He did not, however, think that it need delay tne discussion on the bill referred to, which would not pledge the house to anything with reference to the hulks at Woolwich. DRAINAGE IN SCOTLAND. In answer to a question from Mr. Foituns, Mr.l'. M. GIBSON was understood to say that a bill with reference to drainage in Scotland Will nearly !lady. EDUCATION Sir W. MOLES WORTH postponi d his motion on the subject of the exclusion of Roman Catholics front partici pating in the grant for education until the bringing up of the report. LUNACY BILL. Mr. ROEBUCK uncierst;Jelth;e 7 rTere some amendments to be propo-ed in the Lunacy 8.11, and he therefore pre sumed that it would not come on that night. Si, G. GREY said the amendments were only of • formal character. GOVERNMENT SCHEME OF EDUCATION. Lnrd J. RUSSELL having moved the order of the day for going into committee of supply, On the question that the Speaker do now leave the chair, Sir W. CLAY moved, that it is expedient that in any plan for promoting the education of the people by pecuniary assistance from the state, provision should be made that, in !schools receiving such assistance, the opportunity of parti. eipating in all instruction other than religious should be afforded to children whew parents may object to the religious doctrines taught in such schools. He would, of course, bow to the decision et. ch the holm had come to by so great a majority; but atilt thought the measura would prove a fertile source cf anxiety and trouble. He should make no general opposition to the plan, and his motion related only to the details of the measure. Ilia object was to secure to all the subjects of the realm a participation in the benefit of the grant to which all would have to contribute. (Hear.) He believed that no moderate despotism in Europe would have permitted such a,. act of injustice to be inflicted on any clam of its subjects 116 the nonconformists would have to complain of if the mea- sure passed. In almost every parish in the kingdom there would be a church of England school, but there must neat& eerily be very few dissenting schools, because nonconformists would be unable to comply with the required conditions—he said nothing about their objection on religious grounds to receive any portion of the grant, because he believed the house had no sympathy with such conscientious scruples. The motion having been seconded, Mr. CHRISTIE said he approved of the intension of the proposition of the honourable member fir the Tower Hamlets, so far as it wen founded on a principle of religious toleration ; but he believed that so far from di minishing, it would increase, the inequality in the working of the scheme. In the cases where the dissenters formed a small minority, without schools of their own, he conceived the declaration of the noble teed that the committee of the privy council would consider them, to be sufficient. In those cases, where there was a considerable number of dis senters who had dissenting schools, he was afraid that this measure might tend to injury ; but he thought it would be increased by the operasion of the proposition of the honourable member. The dimenten might not be able, in many cases, to find the sum required, in order to have the regularly trained schoolmaster; whereas the mem bers of the church would have no difficulty in doing so ; and the consequence would be that the children of dissenters would go where the better schoolmaster was. The dis senting schools would therefore fall away, end the benefits which arose from the competition between the church and dissenting body would be lost. There was this fault in the plan propounded, that instead of being content with general rules they hampered themselves with inviolable ones. A great deal had been said about the exclusion of the Roman catholic'. Ile was as anxious as any one that the Roman catholics oh iuld participate in the benefits of the grant, but he believed that the principle of the government was to do the greatest amount of good they could. (Hear, hear, hear.) He did not think, then, it should be said that the Roman catholics were excluded, but that their time had not yet come. (Hear, hear). There was another class of whom little had been said—the mein. berg of the Jewish persuasion. He understood that the Jews maintained three school, in this city for their power brethren which stood in need of assistance, and he hoped that their claims would be considered together with those of the Roman catholics. Mr VILLIERS said that the hon. and learned member hod pointed out the inconsistency of the dissenters in object ing to the present scheme, but that was no way to get out of the difficulties pointed out by the member fur the Tower hamlets, who said that, owing to the deficiency of education provided far the dissenters, it was necessary to make provi sion for the instruction of their children in the national school,. If the dissenters did not accept of the grant, the consequence would be that more children in the agricultural parishes would be left without education. The motion be fore the house resulted from the inconvenience of attempting education by means of religious societies. (Hear.) The difficulty they had to contend with was, how they were to give education to the poor without having the impediments resulting from peculiar religious tenets thrown in its way. He thought that the principles of Dr. Vaughan had been misunderstood. Dr. Vaughan did not recommend an irreligious education. He recommended, as he (Mr. Villiers) understood, a system of education from which all might derive advantage, and by which religious instruction would be given to all children whose parents did not object to it. He did not see why such a system might not be adopted in this country. He thought that they were only in the infancy of the system of educa tion, and ho was glad to understand that the go vernment did not propose this as a final scheme. (Hear, bear, hear.) He could not vote against the amendment of the hon. member for Finsbury last night, because he thought that a proposition of this hind should be made in a committee of the whole house, and not upon going into committee on the miscellaneous estimates. He thanked the government, however, for what they had done, and he concurred with the right hon. baronet the member for Tam worth that they should cease squabbling about peculiar tenets, and adopt the broad principle of giving Christian leaching to the children of the state in the Christian religion. Mr. FORBES said that the measure of the government had his support, because he thought it a just one, and he gave the noble lord credit for bringing it forward in a manly, straightforward manner. (Hear.) lint any proposition for the endowment of the Roman catholic. would have his feeble but strenuous opposition. Mr. ISIUNTZ said he opposed the measure because he objected that any body of the people should be taxed for general purposes without obtaining a fair share in the dis pensation of the money raised. (Hear, hear.) On the same grour,d he opposed the grant to Maynooth College. It was said that a secular education must be a godless one, but he thought that education might be given to the children of the poor, and their religion lett to the care of their parents and minister.. (Hear, hear.) He could say, from his own experience, that the workmen who was edu cated we. better than the uninstructed one. (Hear, hear.) Kr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN said that though prepared to support her Majesty's government on that question, he would not be doing justice to the division which he repre sented (the northern division of Northamptonshire) if he did not state that in all the coffimunications which he had received from the opponents of the measure, the oppositioon . had been made to rest, not on the grounds urged in that house, but on those set forth in Crosby Hall. Many of the petitioners against the measure were men to whom the charge of fanatical bigotry, or of political violence, could not properly be applied; and when they opposed the measure they were newer the truth, and more consistent with their own principles than many who had opposed the measure on the principles advanced there. lie believed it was a fa sounder and more wholetionse principle that education should be let alone by the state, then that the state should attempt to separate secular from religious education. (Hear, hear.) Thoth who complained that the dissenters had taken them by sur prise, appeared to him to have taken a superficial view of the principles of the nonconformism, who, both politically and theologicaUy (as was understood), conceived that they had a right to perpetual progress and constant development. Considering the experience which had been gained since 1839, the honourable member for Wolverhampton was the last person who should complain of being taken by sequin in this matter. How could he expect that those whom he had addressed so frequently in favour of the lainerfaire principle in commerce should not desire to have the same principle applied to education 1 It was unfair to meet the dissenters with statistics of crime, and to endeavour to cast obloquy upon them fa opposing the government scheme. The drienters said to them, We regret this state of things as much as you, but we tell you that your plan, in stead of ameliorating it, will only ma k e matter . wer . ; while our sympathies are with you as to the end to be gained, our understandings are not convinced that you have proposed the right means to gain it ; we tell you that you stop short in the principles which you advocated last year—that you were right then, and we are right now." Political economists had evidently felt the pressure sf that argument ; and in treating the question merely as one of police, and endeavouring to strike a balance between the gaoler and the schoolmaster, they had argued the measure on her lower ground,' than had been taken in Crosby Hall. Now, he wished that those who were for separating reli gious from secular education would tell them what education was. Was it merely instruction—was it merely knowledge —or was it the educating of the better parts of our nature ? It might be all very well for the honourable baronet the member fur Southwark, who said that since the days of Socrates and Plato, no advance hod been made in ethical science—it might be very well for him to urge the advantages of mere book learning, but a barge majority in that house believed, he trusted, that there had been an immeasurable advance in ethical 'cleat° since the period mentioned ; and, for his own part, he thought that if they appealed merely to rea son, sod trusted to secular education alone, as the means of securing their own property, their course, founded upon such poor and sordid motives, would bring down upon them the ' punishment which they deserved. (Hear.) Dr. BOWHING would feel greatly distressed if as impression should be produced that he felt less ,interested than others in the spread of education ; fur he certainly felt thct it was a shame and an oppro brium to this country that there should be such multitudes unprovided with popular education. lie felt bound to acknowledge that the voluntary system hod not accomplished what it had proposed to itself. When he heard it rod that government education must include religion, he could not but feel that the controversy was a controversy about words. To elevate the mind, to purify the morals, and to teach the duties of children towards God and man, was an important part of secular instruction ; but when he came to inquire more particularly what was meant by religious educt lion, he found that it was instruction in creeds, formularies, particular translations of the holy books, and what might be called the external forms of religion, which did not constitute religion itself. He had visited countries where education was universal, and if he had asked the masters what were the religious opinions of their scholars, theywould have regarded his question with surprise and indignation. Controversies about " versions " were, indeed, as it seemed to him, eminently childish. He grieved, indeed, to think that so many religious animosities and antipathies should interfere with this great field of bene volence. Were children only to be instructed when men agreed about points of doctrine? Why, he did not know what was true, but he could know what was charitable. (Hear, hear.) He. knew that there was in the world much truth and much falsehood ; but the falsehood, he had ever found, was on the aide of persecution, and the truth on the I aide of kindness and of charity. (Cheering.) If,. TRELAWNY Raid there were many objections to this measure in which he participated very strongly. At the same time, however, he regarded it as the best thegovernment was able to propme. Oa that ground he should support it— strenuously and unflinchingly—let what might be the con sequences. Mr. BROTHERTON said this was not a question, in his opinion, between church and dissent. Was it calculated to be beneficial to the people ?—that was the question—the only question—.hick weighed with him. (Hear, hear.) lie belleved thin measure would be of great benefit to the people, and therefore, although he had voted last night in the mino rity, is order to make the measure just, he should to-sight give his vote in favour of the government, in order that the measure might peas that house. The volun tary system did not meet the wants of the people. Crime was increasing everywhere. Its punishment cost this country two millions and a half a year. blillione a year were spent in intoxicating liquors hundreds of thousands in prosecuting felons ; and yet the state did nothing for the prevention of crime (Hear, hear.) Let the people, there fore, be educated. Let them not dispute about the " Denny version," or "the recognised version," but let them adopt the best system, without hampering it with their prejudices. (Cheers.) He was much phased that the government had brought this sul6ect before them is the shape of an annual grant. If it had been a perfect measure, then they should hive brought is a bill, but, as an imperfect measure, it was alike their duty, and for the interest of the people, that it should be submitted in its present shape. Mr. T. D. ACLAND was of opinion that, on the whole, the government had acted wisely with respect to this ques tion, and he hoped their measure would be rewarded by increased prosperity among the people. He considered that there was much misunderstanding on this subject; and he thought the dissenters had acted unwisely in opposing the grant at the present moment. Numbers who attended dissenters' chapels had no conscientious objection to the r vice of the church; they were probably drawn from their parish church by stimulating appeals to their feelings; but, if the question were fairly placed before them, they would prefer to have their children instructed by an intelligent and educated clergyman of the church. He knew an instance where, in live schools connected with the Na tional Society, and containing 1,120 children, only 350 were the children of parents belonging to the church; 220 belonged to Wesleyan., 160 to Imn pendent'', 98 to baptists, and 289 to other denomination.. Out of the two-thirds thus belonging to dissenting parents, only six had objected, chiefly on the ground of the time occupied, to the religious teaclaiiig of the school. The clergyman held a Sunday afternoon service in the school, intimating that only those who wished to do so need attend ; and the result was, that nearly the whole were present. (Hear, hoar.) These and other facts with which he was acquainted proved that the objections of dissenters to the teaching in the church 'shoots were much ler than many person. supposed. The clergy, on the other side—at least all those of moderate views—were prepared to meet this spirit in their mode of conducting their schools; but they should not be asked to establish as a principle the giving of different kinds of instruction, in the same school, to the children of churchmen and of dissenters. Not all the government grants that would be offered, would induce the clersy to forego their religious teaching; end he doubted not that the dissenters would display the game attachment to their own system of education. He respected such conscientious feelhags. He should vote in favour of these minutes f r a reason which might appear somewhat paradoxical : because he believed the state could not be the educator of the people. The state could not educate the people, but it could see that they were educated; it could foster, promote, and extend education ; and thin ho considered it the duty of the government to do. On this subject the church had made largo concessions. Not long ago, the majority of churchmen, probably in distrust of the intentione of go vernment, contended that nothing ought to be done tending to take eduction out of the Minds of the church. But that feeling was now removed ; and one main reason of this was the judicious selection which had been made of inspectors. The minutes themselves had been conceived in the moat practical spirit ; and he thankfully accepted them as evi dence of the intention of government to aid the exertions of those devoted men, who, in all parts of the country, were labouring in the cause of education. No system of educa tion could bo perfect which passed over these men, we:ether they were thurchmen or disinters. (Hear, hear.) He regretted the depreciating way in which Sunday schools had been spukan of; he admired the christian faith and devotedness which animated the con ductors of thee schools, themselves mostly working men and women. The Rev. Mr. Slade, rector of Belton, In Lanca shire, had effected an immense revolution amongst the work ing population by means of his Sunday schools, in which upwards of 1,109 children were taught. lie was far from underrating the voluntary system, but rejoiced that it was to be fort-red by the government grant. lie doubted not that the half million which had been granted lathe last ten years had called forth voluntary contributions to the amount of at least a million and a quarter. (Hear, hear) He regretted the course taken by the honourable baronet (Sir R. Peel), the member for Tamworth, which could only Increase the difficulties of the government, by bringing in the question of the Roman catholic,. (Hear, hear.) The plain English of this s. erred to be, that those who should seat occupy the Treasury benches would be prepared to establish a regular system of state education. For his own part, he thankfully accepted the plan of the present government. (Hear.) Let hen. members ally themselves rather with men who had sincere religious convictions than with those who,on entering the school door, seemed to leave their religious opinions out side. (Hear, beer.) By promoting the formation of normal schools, the government had seized the real difficulty of the question ; and the course pursued must tend to increase the supply, so much needed, of efficient teachers. It was most important for the church that the Lumber of humble, work ing MiII'SIOTS should be increased ; and, though he would never ask the public money for such a purpose, he was anxious that really useful men should not be debarred from placing themselves in a position of greater usefulness.. In conclusion, be expressed a hope that the labours of christians in the cause of education would cease to be embittered by the struggles of party and the rancour of sectarian feelings. Mr. H. BEItEELEY said that he approved of the general principles of the bill, but be disapproved of some of the detail., and regretted that he was obliged to vote in oppo sition to it. Sir J. PAKINGTON was anxious to state to the house the reasons why he would not gire his support to this amendment; he believed that in many instances in church schools, the principle contended for by the hon. baronet was fully carritd out. He considered that religious education should, in all cues, be joined to secular education ; but, at the same time, be was not prepared to support any vote which would make that principle compulsory. Sir B. HALL said that he approved of the amendment of his hon. friend, and he certainly would vote fur it. As it wu clear that the proposal of the government would be car ried into effect, he thought that the best thing they could do was to make it as palatable u possible to all classes of the community ; and he believed that the amendment of his hon. friend would have that effect. He was not at all sur prised at the course taken by the hon. members for Stirling shire and Kent, because they approved of education being entirely exclusive Sir J. C. HOB/MUSE suggested to the hon. baronet to reserve what he had to say until the motion of the hon. member for Southwark was before them on Monday next. Sir B. HALL said that he was very thankful to the right hon. baronet for his suggestion, but as he had risen twelve times already before no wee allowed to speak, he would now make the few observations he had intended to express. lie then proceeded to say, that though he had no great favour for the Roman cetholica, yet that it was his opinion, as will as that of the noble lord at the heed of the government, that they should not be excluded. He did not, however, agree with him in thinking that they tent ht to be afraid of the " no popery" cry which the Wesleyans were likely to raise. That was only putting off the evil day. He thought that the beet th ing that government could do would be to bring forward some minutes of court , ell in which the Roman Catholics would be admitted. He believed the real cause of dissent in Wales was the practice of sending to the people clergymen who could not preach to them in their own language; and he thought great good would arise from clergymen being appointed who understood the Welsh tongue. The remainder of the hon. baronet's speech was very indistinctly heard in the gallery. Mr. HENLEY Hkid, the noble lord at the head of use government had spoken in tavour of the motion, by saying to war a hardship that the children of dissenters attending the • church of England schools should be forced to learn tho church catechism and liturgy. Hon. gentlemen on ok (Mr. Henley's) side of the house had also advocated t h e principle iavolTed in the motion of the hen. baronet, and nip he supposed they intended to Tote against it. (Hear and laughter.) He, however, disapproved, under the plea • conscience, of compelling persons who might set up Church of England whools, by receiving into such schooh the children of dissenters, to do that which in th. it conscience they believed it an evil to do; and he warned the noble lord at the head of the government, that it he ever attempted t o force on the Church of England the education of her peopl e , in a way which her convictions t o ld h er was not right, he would create an opposition which he little calculated apse, If the church war not allowed to instruct youth in her own religion, he believed she would have nothing at all to do with their tuition. -•- - - - Sir G. GREY would have addressed the house earlier it the debate, hut from the time at which the hon. member who moved the amendment addressed the house down es the speech of the hon member for Droitwich, not one word had been said about the specific motion before the house; but all hon. members had dealt with the general queen* and it was in fact a continuance of the debate of the last three nights. He wax, however, unwilling to interrupt hen. gentlemen who wished to state their opinions on the gem* question. The hon. member who had just eat down had confined himself strictly to the motion, anal he theinked him for doing so. But at the same time he widely differed with him so to the course which he thought should be pursued by the clergy and the church ; he us rather disposed to adopt the advice given by the hon. mem. her for Droitwich, and that of the hon. member for Somenu shire, which was contained. in a speech full of just and honourable feeling. (Hear, hear.) Although it was not the intention of the government to impose it as a condition that all the schools should he extended to the children of Num. who objected to the religious instruction of the church, still he hoped that the system of not enforcing the reading of the catechism and the liturgy would be universe!. Owing to the expression of a similar sentiment by his noble friend (Lord J. Russell) the honourable member for Oxford shire teemed to think that it was the intention of the government to enforce some such provi.ion. This would be inconsistent with the course which the govern ment thought it their duty to take. It was nut propene/ to enfotee any new condition in the schools that received pm. liamcntary aid, but to met existing institutions, and to I raise the characters of the schoolmasters. It they were te I adopt the principle of the hon. member fur the Tower ffsmlets, it would be inconsistent with those voluntary I efforts which, while the government did not eutimly trust to them, they did not intend entirely to discard. But if they were to say to the British and Foreign School Society, or the National School Society, or the Wedeyans, or the Roman Catholics (whom he hoped to ore included in the grant)--(hear, hear)—" You must conform to these con ditions." the British and Foreign School Society, and Na tional School Society, would be obliged to alter one of their fundamental rules, and the same thing would happen to all the voluntary societies. He should therefore oppose the resolution. • Mr. ROEBUCK said there was one thing which mast be gratifying to the friends of liberal education, who fur lean had been desirous of forwarding it, that there was one uni versal feeling among all in that house whose opitdotu weft worth hearing that there was necessity for some education, and that eventually it must include all clam'. But these bad else been an opinion expressed in that house that person' entertaining the sentiments of the hon. member for the Tower Hamlet", and even of the right hon. baronet the member for Tanaworth, and the noble lord at the head of the government, were open to the impu tatiou of being infidels, because they did not come op to the strict letter of certain opinions. Every one had said, and the principle was universally acknowledged, that it was the duty of the government to educate the people. He discredited the intolerance which existed out of doom, sad the opinions that the government were not justified in inter fering with education, and would assume that it was theirduty —but he would also assume that it was their dutyte educate the largest number possible. The right hon. baronet the member for Dorchester and the right hon. gentleman the re m member b fa e r p 'l l 'a r z e w_or a t n h d , saidi( (M r. . Roe not h u B c i k 'e ) w h o a u lf ld e4 ru u n c o a v i e i rit —l by another," Do not educate half the people." The noble land (J. Russell) however, would educate half the mule, and leave the rest in ignorance. The right honourable baronet (Sr R. Peel) said, speaking of Manchester, he wished for such • spirit of tolerance as regards autisticn that we might be relieved from the savage ignorance white now oppressed society. But the noble lord (J. Russell) did not go so far; and this reminded him (Mr. Roebuck) of a pro phecy which he uttered the other night, that, go as far as the noble lord would, the right hen. baronet would go farther. (Cheers, and " Hear, lieu.") A firtunate thing it was for England; for they should haw the people educated in spite of the hon. member fur Kent, and have the people cad chrietians ; and while the noble lord and the right boa, baronet were manning the neck and neck race of morality, he did not care which came in first. (Hear, hear.) He wanted to know whet that religious education meant ' which was talked of by so many members who differed se widely ? By education he meant the fashioning of the mind to fit it by morality fur the pursuit of happiness in this world end by eionsequenee in the next. Ho set before hinivelf the various adjuasts by which it wag possible to talkie the minds of the people. That they were to be given knew ledge—it might be geographical, historical, or any other— was not dispu , ed ; but then come the fashicniug of their habits. There was the opinion of their families, the opinion of society, the law and • future state. All these were ad juncts from which their habits were to le formed, and the last was called gien. What was now raked ai • bug-bear? What did they differ about but those feetastio dogmata whirl caused separation between man and man. Every one must wish that the exp. ctation of a future state of rewarloand punishments would act on the conduct of men so so to lead them to virtue; but this was not to bo done by religious hatred. What he asked was, that knowledge should he communicated, about which there was no difference. All dirference was on the subject of religion. Were not the Ro man catholics, the baptists, even the Jews, good fatherly good brothers, good citizens ? Then their religion did not prevent this were they not all good men in spite of their differences of religion ? II so, what did the noble lord (J. Russell) and the right hon. baronet (Sir It. Peel) mean, when they said teat religion must be taught? He (Mr. Roebui k) did not object to that ; but they raised a standard of reli g ion which was their own ; and the hon. member for Kent would have them take from his mind the steadied of religion he who said that all who did not agree with him were doomed. Put an " A " in the place of the " 0," and that would give his real meaning. (Hear, and laughter.) Ile had no such extra ordinary estimate of the intellectual and mural capacity of the honourable member, as to induce him (Mr. Roebuck) to take the hon. member as a type of excellence, although he set himself up as one. The Wesleyan said the were not content that error should be taught in the schools, so they objected to the admiaioa the doctrines of the Reman catholic', and they ended by saying that they . hoped the time was comic g wiles there would be full religious tolerance. But by tolerance they meant their own religion. They entertained a draft about the minutes. because they extended some of the good things of thin world in the shape of a grant to the Romaa catholic., and they applied to the noble lord ; sad, after some consultations, their minds were partially eati'ficd that the Roman catholic were excluded; that setisfoction must have been diminished by the proceedings of the last few days. The noble lord said that this exclmion would not be for a long time—it might, only for this 100,0001. What said the right bon. baronet? The noble lord and the right honourable baronet were like boys chalking on the table—John chalked up to the catholics, but Robert chalked further. (" Hear, bear, hear," and laughter.) The good sense of the house had put an end to any hallu cination on this point. It would be impossible fur soy administratioa, whether that of the noble lord or the right hon. baronet, to resist this principle ; or even in the event d the realisation of such • wild and wondrous supposition se that the noble lord the member for Lynn should form ma administration. (Cheers and laughter). Nay, even if the hon. baronet who sat near him (Sir R. !Nth') were in olB* • he would he so pressed by its remonsibility, that for getting all the warnings and feelings of Oxford, he would have to leave it and seek some borough. He could not at the same time represent the intolerance of , Oxford and be the prime minister of England. (Cheers.) Then as regarded the practical consideration of the queened, the hon. member foe the Tower hamlets might rionaider his motion as carried; for there were but two 'rayed evading the difficulty. In a country like ours, which well full of religious differences, it was impossible to create XL united feelieg with respect to religious dogmata so as to tack children in the same schoolroom. It could not be doss. (Hear, bear, hear.) Therefore, this result followed, that there must etther be a multitudinous division d schools, or these religious dogmata must be excluded from them, and be taught by the religious testae' of each psi titular sect. The noble local " I will pro ceed step by step, as much as the people of England MR permit me." The noble lord had that mimics of conscience —(he could amaze the noble lerd he did not mean it offer lively, fur he had the e hich was greatest reep:lsti respect forug the ( , nob h le tev lorsi aen E nglish ) d was a sort of caoutchouc ball, which foil meal the course the pressure applied to it. (Laughter.) "twill," said the noble lord, "include the catholic' in my embrace. It eo cogemttiengio the e e s y t. ea m el u ft4 l, B; th il e l I .l, B47 w l ith er m ot do .. and die.bakiutnl the government will expand—l will have a larger sirs end.by, and the catholic' will be received into my esrdml embrace, as they are within the math of my mind shoat (Loud cheers.) He (Mr. Roebuck) wanted to know if tkie was communicated to the Weeleyans ? (Hear, hear.) It was not. (" Heir, hear," from Sir 0. Grey.) Did the n." hon. baronet who cheered mean to say that, when the cow naunicetion was made to the Wade an connexioe, se they were called, they were told that in 1848 the Roman alkalis would be included? (Hear, hear.) No such drag. TAd was • knowledge unknown to them, and they were tat 8M the tutor, would be like the hippy '47, and they would have their exclusive intohranoe. (ChtteL) But were they not certain, and were not the el'esleysos gnu taro, of what was coming ? There was • large majority is favour of the 100,0001., and they would go to their tuents, when some of them would be turned (Run hear, and laughter.) When some came hock and had sera years before tnem—he did not say " us" (laughter) — cut"' and benevolent feelings would be more gener .1, and all pa ties would be admitted to the benefit of education. He pledged his good faith to the prophecy, that the next Wiii" would see the catholic' included in that vote. (these, hoc) But what would they think of the men who entered ate communication with the government, and whom be even asw shadowed before him with white cravats. no shirt collage and black coats—(laughter)—and who raised the 'Matti