The Express. — London, England, 1851-02-05 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 5, 1851. f a n sufßcient so the most timid mind, that while he would know the moaning r f this word " "/ore ion." The cgrgres- 1 stationaly mew eve every right of the crown, sad her eion coneiewel—he de Heel the settle: lord (Lord J. Russell) •' M o iety's civil supremacy. and while he will oppose deter- to prove ootherwise—it consistei wholly of the spiritual in- s ino n l4l the iatroduction of a code of laws alike opposed to flurnoe of the Pope over the members of the catholic , the • mof the Queen rail the civil liberty of the sub- body. (Hear, hear.) Now, had the Woolen catholic" • y et , will not sully his fair reputation by any course done anything to deserre the insult to which they had been' w hich shall be inconsistent with that love of pure subjected ? Was the noble lord, up to the period when he , ? a g a v es liberty which he has ever shown. I trust I declared himself enlighten“l with regard to this matter, in eire dual all feel we may reserve ourselves with perfect con- total darkness with respect to what the Roman catho hel..to, till we see the bill intrrahreett, but if it be doubted lie. were doing ? Ile fancied that the noble lord se to the propriety of env bill at all being brought could hardly have been so completely ign dant. Certain b. I paint to Roman cathodic peen of the highest be was that Lord Clarendon was net ignorant; neither was et ti• ( o h, ohs, who have puhliely declared that the noble lord the Secretary of State for the colonies. . .•ot ale a aoce to the canon law is incompatible with Undue the Bequest Act a commission wax appointed, and & leg:owe to the sovereign. If so, we see good bishops% of the catholic church were therein acknowledged, a for the introduction of Rome measure far our from year to year. He held in his hand the Third Report eTl,ol.eleratiom. Not, sir, that these noble lords are' of the Commis:toners, which contained, amongst other recrwat to their religious principles in thus resenting the things, accounts of the meetings of the curniniesionero since rid re script, not through the indirect induence of pro- the 12th of MamlB47. On the Nth of November, the irteation they to,:ve adopt, el views which in other tunes Right lion. Joe Keating was in the chair; subsequently they, y ou 'd have ahhd—oothing like it. The papal the Lord Chief Baron presided; then his Grace the le sari orre pt woodel have been r,ented in the palmiest days of Primate ; then his Grace the lord Arehbh , hop of to, Bosom e itholic religion in this country. (No, no.) , Dublin, a protestant; and next his Grace the Lord Arch- I trot ....l Men. niembere will feel they can concur in the terms , biahop Daniel Murray, not saying of what Once. of the address, and I hope we 'hall postpone any debate ! And the whole of the late uproar was cowed he the fact o n s tui.jeet so receding, until the matter is substuttieely , that Dr. Wiseman wax named archbishop, with . the place b e fore us. The hon. member concluded with is brief alto- l montioned. Here were men calling themselvesnrelibishoto rim Vi the nectoity of accomplishing some reforms in the I in Ire :and, and here were sets of parliament in which tho me ehanion of the law, 1 titles were recognised. (Hear, hear.) They ware also Mr. ROEItUI K said, never since he obtained the honour recognised in the reicalstioue for the Irish court. Here of a scot in that honer, had he risen with so much pain as ; wee a paper in which it was set foorth that " Her Majesty as that neesesion. This was not a mere phrase, one of the has been plowed to desire that the following person. hare sectteey coo . ntane rnte of common-place spot-ekes ;he I the privilege of the private entry at court ..-I.'irst, the pri m" a fair transcript of his mind, when he said that he mate, then the lard Chancellor, then " the Archbishop of inn: felt pain in that house equal to that which he felt Dublin," and then "the catholic primate," and let the that „, nine. on rising to speak. The occasion of that house take notice, before all the protestant hi-hops. (hear, pain ere, that then. for the first time since he had Sat in Mar.) And then the Itonian catholic Bishop of Dublin the berm-, he towel en aelminietration calling itself liberal, set out at full length. (Ikea, hear.) Here were the titles h i ~d, : 11,v one who had attain' el all his honour and distinction I arknowledged by her Majesty, in eon'' , ering aspet'Al privilege as a numb , r i'd a gnat liberd party,taking the first step hark- , and that too in the teeth of an act of parliament. Ilintthe war.:, Amongst a nation, and at a time of which onward house knew well that the Queen had acted in the matter by • the dietinetise mark, by such an adminietration the advice of her miuiste re, and that they, in fact, were progress W.V. st.ol by seena prime min i ster, was the real hockward step nomousible for it. The document was prepared in the atteraptesl tee he than The hon. gentleman had observed Home-other. and to the Hume Secretary they must look for that the antecedents of the noble lord we re guarantees for explanation. reel lilertv. Last rear he (Mr. Roebuck) would have made Sir G. GREY was understood to deny having pre thee steatite ote but now he could not do so. Having lurk fly pared it. et , t r e at .," the hi s t o ry of catholic emanciptition, and the priu- Mr. ROEBUCK —No matter, the right hon. baronet till, son wino h that measure was founded, which, he eau- was answerable tor it. (Loud laughter.) lie was, as( very te n elo a l, 111111 violuted by le aishation against religious die- one knew, the government of Ireland, and the moveritnieut tho .,,„ ee wante d b e a bishop culled the I'oe. lie of Ireland was answerable for the document. Now, what chum d Lord John }lumen with dealing falsely with the he wanted to press upon the house was that the catholic,. reentry. He (Lord John Russell) helot them, or the Queen seeing their titles recognied in such a document, and told tie the On, s n's speech Ming the noble lord's—that resultiust in privileges to which some persons attached her Majesty het retain-11 litany addressee from large betties great importance. might have easily been led to believe of her subjerts with respect to the ecclesiastical tithes con- that there would be no objection on the part of anybody, o ja rre d by a - f, weign power, and the noble lord himself, that except perhaps the hon. member for Defend, to the woeump the • might not renean iu doubt as to what was intended, time of similar titles in this country. (Hear, hear) They had that evening given petite that he would bring in a bill all knew what was the real history of this transaction. The t o pr e vent the mot ment of say honour which might he thing had leen planned for some years, and was announced conferred toot by a foreign sovereign —for that was an arti- in the s• Catholic Directory" for 1817, in when Dr. V. iseman lee which he would tear to pieces (hoar, hear); but any was styled Archbishop of Westminster, but then the Italian re Ultimo distinction granted by the Bishop of Rome. If revolution teeth platy, and of course all the Pope'spmereelings the noble Inn! did not moo that he raeant nothing. How- were intemmted. But his intentions were very well known, ever much he might differ from the noble lord on many Ruh- known toot° our minist eat Rome, for he it remembered that Jetts, he meet toy, that the noble lord hall in spite of the act of parliament we had a minister iet name. s le e p, sheo n himself a hank dealing man ; and (Hear, hear.) And when pee,* talked shoat au act of par he mould o p pose La that he would not say that it was not 'Lament, and invading the t/neen's peel ogative, it might be as peanut the Bi-hop of 'tome that this bell was directed. well for thee.. who were urring home the sharp end of the :Y , deir• who was the Bishop of Rome ? Regarded by a wedge againet the Inman catholic , , to remember that they tutholie the Bishop of Rome was not a vice-reign prince ; the melees were in danger of the mysterious act of pr.emu , he might cease to he the Prince of Rime to-t:we-row, end he nire, for sending Lord ?!into tee Rome. (Hear, hear.) It would still le• the Bishop of Hoene—the head of the catholic might lx: land, perhaps, that the noble lord was not mere relit:bet. in whom to believe and from shoot to derive ditch but that would be mere paltering with the hosier. power wits of the very essence of the catholic religiou. To Now, he held in one hand the Roman C Oholic, and in the s ay you should not believe in the Lopes of Borne was to other the Methmliot Directory, and if they read " enperin eay eeet sh ou ld not he a catholic; to tell a catholic that he tendent " for "bishop," the one a Latin the other a Greek d wu el sot Move u hi-hop who derived his power from the word, they would find the- territorial parcelling out come to biceps was to tell him that he should not have the spiritual precisely the same thing. Here, in one book, was " the comforts of his religion ; in other words, it was ems' Archbishop of Westminster edinary for the Londna res reseteion. (Hear, hear.) But he was met by the disoriet," and the either, "the Rev. Dr. Ileauchamp, Peni le mob "aggression on her olajesty"s prerogative," "papal dent of the Conference and superintendent of the airsn,ion." •• territorial aggression." Their American London district." Why, here was eaaetly the aline brethren had intmeluerel the phmee "obtaining political parcelling out of the kingdom, and for the same, capital." lie (Mr. Roebuck) never saw a more admirable that was to say, for spiritual purposes. (Hear, hear.) ' , mediation lowa no capital at all than that on which the Ile (Mr. ltoelouck) might to-morrow do the same noble lord had just entered. This papal aegreesion thing. Ile might parcel reit Englund if so inclined, mei was no new thing. Thee noble lonl must have call himself D.D. or A.S.S. or any other reverend title he bee n aware of it for years ; and he would prove to those. (Laughter.) Why, the same thing was done by to the satisfaction of eitry one—he did not care le en the Independent.. the Rootlet., and all to.. half hundred' prejudieed lee tnight be on this subject, or on any other— denominations into which English dissent was divided. He he would ems, to Min that this papal aggrewion le-gan asked the house, then, was this a matter, respecting which, rote ago, and had been winctioneel by the noble lord. it was worth while, after all they had heard of " England," said the- noble lune "has been parcelled out ministers' previous conduct to the Roman catholies, of by a fun lend power; England has been parcelled out by the way in which the latter had been lured on, to run the Pope oef Rome." But when ? " Oh, the tether day, such risks as ministers were pres.ed to unite rtake ? (hear.) when a earelinal was treated, tied Dr. Wiseman declared As to the remaining portions of the whines., he hail no Arebbiettop of Westminster." Wei that the art territorial opposition to offer, and hit it not been for this unfortunate aggression ? Was it the lirst perdition of Englatel ? Why, point, all lee should have done would hart been to join in t ter since he had kaolin Eastland he had been pursing it ley aerlamation. (Cheers.) nware of the existence of catholic 'ashore. There was one Sir It. INGLIS (who was almost innudible, in eon*. iastanee with which he was familiar. bishop Bain+s was emcee* of the 111171 I.f enneereation pervading the house) e elle 41 Bishop of ('out,, and as he W.Ol in reality Bishop of was understood to complain that the hon. and learned Bathe he' (Mr• Its buck; ste w waneitnap about him. That member had treated the papal aggr:wesion us a matter too bishop dense," his powers direel) from the Pole , . Ile was trivial for state notice or interferetio to lie would ask the also, lee steppes 41, a clear iltOKtOlie. NOW what did that hon. and harried member whether, if such a proceeding had mean ."- lie gimlet it v eettd appear that, en fur front the taken place in any other country in Europe. it would not p,,ps having la, ly acquired power, he had (bigoted himself have been meet by a similar burst of feeling, or such ter pe ce r (le .o', hear) ; that so far from this being an an equivalent dentonstmtiont as the customs of the country swan ...ion at wax a nine:rob - on ; that instead of might ruction? Was there a country in Europe in hieing encroache d o n her Mnoety's 'marmot i ve, the which such a territorial partition wmild have been admitted, Pope had wive n the people of England, or the catheo at all event" without diseuesion ? (Hear, hear.) Could the lie. 01 Ellal3llll, the power of guise ruing themsates. Pope hare made such an attempt on any of the gnat eon- A 'asleep who was 11 vicar apootolic was like a tinental power. of Europe ? The bon. and learned member krote a /leen ; he ref. rod e verything to the Pope, talked of the partitiems of the Wesleyan* and other sects. and the Pop. through his vicar* apostolic, governed this hut the Pope had treated Er.gland as if it were a country of coontry comet. to lv and entirely, as far as catholic. were infidels, as if we had neither crown, nor e Minh, and concerto el. The leishops woulof now have to be elected by that toe re individual except the members of his own certain pen.ons in Ettglartel. (Cries of " No, no.") The communion we're yet to be converted tie Chrietiartite. would tenet them M olvee 'Menton. (Hear, hear.) " But , ' (Hear, hear.) He had, to use a popular phrow, tousled It was said. " Dr. Wise man it Gilled Arch shop of the e xistenee of the crown cif Eiutland and the ('hurch of Westminster." Icy end bye Bishop Bane*, hotrod of England, anal ordained that hetweforth the peoplo should be ing vetted Hiehop tilt:at ta e a place in parribas irefirl, limas, he governed only by his priests. (Hear, hear.) He asked might le ran, ot Dis Mop of Rath end Welts, and then think .if the. hon. snit leaned memner whether, if such an aggro.- the racer--ram IT ho r 'Oland) 's pre negative! Was the whole Slllll hail been attempted nil Russia, the great sovereign of matte rto torn on the Met that a ',Whop was ealle 41 Arch- that country would not have reeistecl it with the whole force Nebel, of Westminster instead of Ilithop of Melipotanius ? of his mighty tenpin. ? Ile (Sir It. Inglis) would venture Was !hat the gnat di-tine-tient i• (Ikar, hear.) WO, Minn to predict that (-eery ship of war in the Mack Sea would in Lao is t i flew to her Majeety's prenigutive from mere change such a nee be sent to Cleats Vecchia, and the Pope con-' of we rots ? flow, he asked, was her 111 s ty's prereemtive pelted to eat his own words within three months. (A tot ake .1. or ohm was the mooting of t • word " aosnree- laugh.) What he felt fare of with the Emperor of Itteeia eien •• • 114. hod not indeed re al, hut glanced over, the ht 1011111 harshly etpect from the Emirreer of Austria; but columns and coleomne ~f rubbish which had been uttered of this he was certain, that a certain King of England, of as that ••iliert (Our re) : sail he felt it to be one of the a former day, would have met it fearlessly and promptly most glorious prior:lieges of that home that he could there and in whatever shap• it might hose advanced. lie alluded my what would not he listened to by roaring wrtarim. to W illi.tm 111.. mid he asked, if such a monkery had bee n (laughter and theves.) In that house,'however humble an attempted in his time, win thee he would not immediately W1i v0 t,,..,1 m i g h t be, if h e sp o ke calmly WWI honestly, he have ordered the offending parties to withdraw from the ousel h. heard .: 111211 Stl Cenhilent wee he, not in himself, kingdom ? (Hear, twee.) He (lid Wet (pat,' approve of the lint in the simple statement of the truth, where it was his- speech which her Majesty had been advised to deliver, not to mei to with calinue ees and decorum, that he was convinced became it went eon far, hut because it went far Ina into tho that his ementreme n would by and by feel ashamed, both merits and necessities of the caw than lie had been pod to' of the comletotien and o f the pi roots who hail stirred it up. expert front the letter of the noble lord at the head of the (laughter. , Now, he wanted to know shut WAS the mean- government. The hon. and learned member made light of ire of this wool - aggression f" Hail the law been the amerso.ion, but he (Sir R. Inglis) would recommend thaneed ? Not at all. The Bishop of Casabecame him to peruse Mr. Twos history of it, before he pronounced Bishop of Bath end Welle,—he did not know what see 111.SisiStIV. It was quite true as the hon. and learned Dr. Witeinan might chaser to ho calks'. lie reall7 member hail triumphatly asserted, that we had given undue did rot wish to east the slightest degree of ludo- encouragement to the papacy, in the concessions succes cranisiew over the question 1 he wished to deal with it sively yielded by government. They had acknowledged gravels'. a' the made lord had dom.; but he could not help the Itomieh biyearlies , in Ireland, and as the hon. and SUitlii/1111 what ages, vie's; there was he Dr. Wiseman** ca- learned member NUB, had recognieed the Roman catholic watt home If a nerelneol. and putting on a large hat and reel archbishop, but not he believed as archbishop of Dublin, stiwkieen. 114 reps and that hr diet not wish to treat merely as exercising the functions in loco, a very important the otte slime lueliennoly ; but, in fart, it was impossible to dietinetion in considering the question of archiepiscopal ask that the ageression was without making the subject jurisdiction. Ile would only further expose his hopes boner,-,,.. (He a r.) Loyalty to the sovereign s. Did anybsly that the first minister of the crown would secure to Rupp' o that hi leveller k•se loyal because he laughed at this ? the bishops and delve of the church much protection as they That the emluaies of Enghool. who were amongst the most were entitled to by the law., and customs, and constitution Memo:, and submissive (they were, indeed. too humble). of of England. ((hear, hear.) all rl ese sof her Maj esty • subjects—that they of all people Mr. J. O'CONNELL thanked the hon. and learned in the ee oriel ehouklbe amused of making inroad. upon her member for Sheffield for his ',perch, not only in the name Mae -I y's prerecatiie, because Dr. Wiectuan was called of the catholic. of the United Kingdom, hut 'in that of civil An ih'' ,1, ..1. or WettokirPter• a" , indeed, curl • • rag, How and religious liberty. lie multi not coincide' in the sanguine was en, pisse•r in question attained? lie w o uld answer conclweion that had been drawn respecting the improve soil "f the noble lonl's own mouth. In the year ISIS. the mints 1.1 Ireland. lie contendeel that nothing hail ben km. hamlet the minis r for the University of Oxford (Sir recently attempted by the catholic hierarchy which it. Inglis) called attention to certain matter, connected with was not in accordance with precedents set twenty the oreetewel hierarchy of the "Gannett church. The hon. and even seventy years ago. In his (Mr. O'Connell's) baronet woo the only consistent man amongst them, opinion, the noble lord (Lord John Ruseell) had, by come the one exactly opposite to him, who his celebrated letter to the Bishop of Durham_ , done hadtli, n the honour of addressing the house. much to excite feelings of religious animosity between Ihe hon. member haul been consistent from the b- various classes of her Majesty's subjects. and the Roman ginning. lb said. " Ton were wrong in 1829: you catholic.' of this try arid of Ireland did expect that • ought to have kept the catholic, down; you had no bust- the nobles hurl. having committed himself to loigotry and WWI 1.1 make any advance ; • and when he saw the whirl- intolerance in wird,, would have had the manliness to - pits which the noble lord had helmet to 'establish beiug earn out thew wants by acts, That he had not done so tarried ,out. 111'1111111'. Tha r. now, look at the I.IIIIseIIUCIRVII, would obtain for him, not the thank, of the catholic', but hen is tier I. eitimate result of what sou did in ltelte" their contempt. The noble lord said. in a debute in reference to diploniati Mr. A. J. B. HOPE thought his hon. friend the member (4 1 rel tines with the court of Rome. " You meet e ither give for Oxford University- had not considers,' the question in sertain adsantattes to the ltoman cethoolies in obtaining its double aspect—as it affected the Church of England on from the Pope certain other advantages in return, among the one hand, and the body politic on the other. As a which you must stipulate that the Pope shall not create any member of the ('hunch of England he was ready to oppow dioceses in England without the consent of the Queen ; or. Romish aggrewion to the last • hut they were not mumbled on the other hand. you must sav that you will have nothing then- as members of the Church of England, but as members to do with arrangements of that kind, and that you will not of the legislature of a country pre-eminent in civilian Imola to Ow any authority to the Homan catholic religion non, intellect and toleration where free deem of conscience in England." s• But," added the noble lord, " you must was the law of the land. (Hear, hear.) The hon. baronet leave the spiritual authority of the Pope entirely unfettered. had n•ferred to the reign of William the Third, and so far You cannot WU the Popes spiritual authority unless you as the law and constitution remained unchanged, since then have n a me agreement. Fen my own Past. lam ma die - that appeal woe legitimate. But to be consistent this appeal pool to think that it would be• for the advantage of this should embrace the whole term, the whole length and emintry-, or that it would be agreeable to the Roman ea- breadth, not of the William of Orange only, but of the theliee. that we should have an ogre-emelt with the Pope Elizabeth, the Tudor, and Stuart view of the doctrine of hey which their religious arrangements would be regulated. lawny of conechences ; and that view would not merely Although you may prevent any spiritual authority hum drive Cardinal Wiseman from the kingdom, but hurry him being e eersised by the Pope' by law, yea there is no provi- to the stake at Smithfield, and clop off the ears of the hon. eiun, nu law whiel nay boo. friend could frame, that would ! gentleman who had last addressed the home , . (wt Hear," showier the Pope of that influence which is exereind over 1 and a laugh.) Those views, however, no longer remained. the mind. and preclude him from giving advice to thew 1 The hon. member then glanced briefly at the history of re aleo chea t to attend to such ads in . t That ware a wise de- IlisriOnS toleration in England--o principle which had cub thwation . It was a statement that you might anathema- initiated in the acts of 1809, and had been consolidated bee the re bole papal people. that you might All the statute since by other statutes. Yet now it was proposed to revive book with pains and doultilith a and yet nut be able to penal enactments against the catholice merely becauee they Men is, euntreel over the mind of the catholic. If ant ono had presumed to act up to the chaster of their ernancipa lael come to that honer, and asked the noble lord tobriug tinn. How could protestantism, which was founded upon ie e lull to Au-knowledge Curelinal Wiseman, to resew- faith and reason, be endangered by a trifling change in the n'' Inc lawelling out of England, and to eye him a erclesiaetical nomenclature of the Roman prelacy ? It was certain pre-einineace and precedence, then he could undef- humiliating to array the great powers of parliament in re etatal the u o hle lord's wynatet " I will nut consent to this in- 'lst-ann• to an attempt said to be making by thir feMaement atom the prerogative of the. weereign." But teen individuals, comparatively poor and unknown, and when au inelindual tame in the humble guise of a poor eommissioned by the weakest prince in Europe. powerless priest, without any influence but spiritual infin- The dignified way to treat the aggression was cam. wielding no power but the power of mind over mind, to ignore it. He regretted that a ruggarellr and sot eurrouuded by guard. nor brought hither by a fleet in parsimonious policy had iaterfered to prevent the appoint anus--a simple cardinal, addressing himself to metes merit of a Bishop of Westminster in connexion with our • minds. to these spiritual belief, to their perception of what own church to labour amongst the thousands of wretched they deemed religion, he must say that there was here and ignorant human Nina, there crowded together, and to ao carrion, no awault on any one, but merely an ems!. "UM Dr. Wiseman alleged his mimion was directed, use of mind which consisted with religious liberty, instead of heaving that duty to another and an antaFonistie end to impose shackles or manacles on as individual SO church. (Cheers.) He regretted the course which had "tin van gross persecution. (Hear, hear.) They must been taken in this matter, inanimmk as it elould be re- Rarded, not only as a proof of national weakneu, but a eon session that the faith of the natim had no better found4tion than an act of parliament, and that a bull from the Pope, or a letter from the Flaminian gate, was sutfeiently power ful to pull down the crown and at establiNheil religion. Let those who thought Oil: be Lot ful, his faith in the stability 1 , of the Crown and in the Church of England remained un- 11 were confined in prison for rears under the persecution— for persecution he would roll it—while othors lingered out long and miserable lives in the vain expectation of justice, ! and did before justice was wintini‘tered. The people of the United States had shown their good sense by abolishing their Court of Chancery altogether. lie believed that act I would be attended with the best possible results ; and let England follow the Frxxl example, and abolish her Court of Chancery. That might happen one day, although he knew that many—and some he saw there—would find their occu pation gone. At all events, he hoped that the good sense of the country would enforce that extent of reform which should have the effect of removing abuses. lie highly approved of the next paragraph in the royal speech referring to the introduction of a measure for the re gistration of deeds and in.truments relating to the transfer of property. But there was nothing in the speech about the reduction of taxation, and although they had been led to believe in the vague prospect of receiving relief from some, he found no hope recorded in the speech from the throne. lie was not aware either that there was any alliedon to re form, except the law reform. lie hoped, however, and would give the noble lord credit for such intentions, that he would some time introduce not only ouch a reform of that house as he had stated he was always prepared to do, but that while the working classes were shaken, (Cheers.) Mr. C. M.STKY fully subscribed to the language of the ;Teeth from the throne and of the addrera in reference to the Lee act of prat aggress...en. He was a member of the church of Rom: hit not of the court of Rome, and as such he was compelled to characterise that Oct as one of agues don. (Hear, hear.) There was a bread line of distinetion between the Irish Heenan catholic church and the English Roman catholic church which should never be lost sight of in legislating on this sonnet t. The Irish Roman catholic chit:eh was not an endow.l church, while the English branch of that church was. Then the Irish Roman catholic church was governed by a canon law, by which the affair. of that church had been administered, and its clergy governed ever since the days of St. Patrick. and by which abuse and onpresion, either of clergy or laity, were etreettlally preveutnl. The Engthat Roman catholic church had no such defined canon law, the canon law of the Itomnsh church in thi. , country leaving been abrogated by the reformation. From the time of the emancipation of the English Henan catholic church, from the Elizabethan and Stuart code-, there had been a couniet between the Roman catholic hishops and their monk, in cen-equence of the unholy and anomalous , acsumpton by the former, of a jurisdiction in all matters relating to the church—temporal as well 611 spiritual—superior to any law or canon what'o ever. Penton. , had, it was true, been sent to Rome by the Roman catholic laity, praying for the renanal of this antunilly, and that the More govern ment of their church should be placed in the h mete of a hierarchy of the :r own elect: m. Those petitioner* had la m opposed by the bishops who prayed that the le-hope might not he elected, and that the benefit of the canon law might not be given to the laity and inte rior clergy as was the case in Ireland. In the Siatuta Pre prone, it .vas proposed hy Gregory XVI. that the bishops should not take territorial titles, but that they should he elected and he subject to the canon taw, and * though the laity and iufeiior ;stogy acluisaced in that proposition, the biXein re ieted, and ever fence there laid been a contest be tween the bishopemi the one hand awl themes - iodaty clergy, monks, and laity on the other. An attempt was made, and sucesseefially resisted, in 15.36, to establish a hierarchy to be named by the Pope on the recommendation of the bishops, which should override the whole body of the canon law, and to make hews for the regulation and government not only of the epiritualitha, but also of the temporalities, of the Church. The attempt then made hind, by the recent bull, been carried, and unless some means were taken to prevent it, see what a position the ceretts of law reaild be placed in. in relation to all mating connected with the catholic church. This hull, if not at once met, would be r, rived in the court, of equity as authority in all suits involving the tem poralities of that church, and the Court of Chancery would be placed in the anienalotts position of having to carry ont a bull of the Pope. The ;speech from the throne, and the paragraph in the address an answer, did nothine more than call upon the house to eunaidt r this matter, and to his mind it certainly appeared of sueicient importance to justify the sovereign in calling their attention to it. Attention to the laws of the Roman catholic church a priest mot qualify himself fi,, his spiritual function. ; but, pursuant to the new order of thing., it % yield /1 .. w d e p en d on the abonnte will of a bishop to say whether the priest haul so ieteliti him. elf. It might be said that these we re ff..; Ve the considerntfilll ^f PLeum ettahalin not for that of parliament. ite did not say that parliament was culled upon to deal with them, hut he did contend that parliament ought to consider the question generally and to advise her elajesty thereupon. Mike Were told that parlia ment had nothing to do with each a question, then he would beg to remind hen. go ateenon that that house had very often legislated with the slew at kr epingdown undue in fluence.. It laud legidated. for inatance, between the labourer and the manor, the in'elowner and the factory child ; and, iud• ed, it would be impossible for the Rona ratliolies to (maw from the consequences of the hull, unto ss it inter fered hi some shape. It would doubtless not bind the court of Rome by rincordets, because, in spiritual matters, the power of feeisletion was wholly in the Pope ; but there were 'awe which it might profitably enact. If hon. mem bers took the master into consideration in the spirit in which her Majesty had calhel upon them to consider it, they would do well not to stop at the barn n and (lull question of title, or to waste an hour in tithing about the ea ' nunption of eceledesticel titres, het it would be well for them to take into consideration that which for years they had n fused to entertain—namely, the securities taken at the time of the paving of the Emancipation Act. involving ar, they did the rights, duties, and position of the member of the Roman rath‘olic church, and the relation ship of those member. towards the state. aVhert they had done tbi., thee %Willa 1W able to 'vol• with thinp , and not with mimes ; 'but if they omitted to act in this manaer, they might depend upon it that their legislation would be futile. (Hear, hear.) Ile had now to crave the indulgence of the Loma whit. , he addressed him-elf to It point upon which he felt is rionally interested. The bon. member for Sheffield had st:cl that in 1848 it was undentoei that an Archbishop of We was shout to be appointed, and that no proteet had been made against it. lle (Mr. Atuitcy) was bound to hay, in reply, that a pretest bad been Made again-t it by the hon. baronet the member for the Univoreity of Oxford (Sir It. Inglis) on the occasion ,if a bill leasing through that huauo. Ile (Mr. Anstey) then made a statement which, at the time, he be lieved to be true, bet which subsequent event% falsified. His statement was, that it was impesible the report re specting the appoiutme id of an Archbishop of Westminster could be true. became• before there was an arehhisliop there must be a hierarchy ; that there could be no hierarchy without a clerical election ; and that wheneeer an arch ' bishop was UltrOlilt , ll that net would he the act of the clergy end people, and not of a eareign power. Shortly I aft. r he had made this Meternent the human revolution broke out, and einee thin a vitd change had marked the Papal policy, It man indeed, lamentable to think that the I great reforming Pope of 184 C. and 1847 bhould have in later r dim placed himself at the head of a contemptible cams ; ride. (Hear, hear.) He believed it was wholly untrue . that Lets! Minto knew long since that the seeresaion Was - o ditated, for it ws only last summer that the thine had b. en decided upon, and iu the end it was left to Cardinal Wise t man's own choice to my whether he should return to this r country as arelibielinp, or whether he should re mein at r Rome as cardinal. (Hear.) Ile believed, as s member of I the Church of Rome, that the bill of which notice had I be, n given that night, would be utterly futile and s melee , . It must eto much further than he presumed it did, and, if it weut further, he would give her Majesty*e minis.- , ter. thehumble benefit of his vote. (Applause.) 'Redue, t however, to the barren question of title he would not give them his vote. He wouhl °phase any portion of the measure which might relate to Irela ' ne--a country whose position was very different from that of England, and a country r which heal not loot its hierarchy, haul never I - Mediu-el its l hierarchy from the Pope, but hail en;,oyed its aneient renew; I ever rimy the days of St. Patrick. lie would give his vote I that night, if there should happen to be a divinon, in favour of it odd ness, and in opposition to any Roman catholic • ante tolmentie (s. Hear," and closers.) I Mr I'LIanIPTRE p e.tponeel any special examination of I the subject, but pronounced the popular indignation emainst the papal aggreseion to have been just and universal, and , warn, •I the prime minister that it u could he rearmed with tenfold ate, nett', and directed against himself, if he tat- I to patter with the prim nate, he had profemed, or I any of his colleagues who might stand in the way of the fail assertion of protestant huh penitence. Lord ARUNDEL and SCHREY declared his intention to oppose any measure of persecution by whomsoever pro pencot, or however hopeless might bz hi redstance. Mr. FA(IAN commented upon Mr. Austere speech, de elating that he had not made out any ease agaiwt the intro - &Klima of a catholic hierarchy iu England. It woe wrong to term that step, as it had been termed in the royal 'leech, an interference by a foreign power. The act was altogether spieitual end reef, siastical. Mr. IlieME ulnerved that if a stranger entered the house that evening he would naturally be led to suppose that the members were a set of ecelesigeties, met fur no other purpose than to take into consideration the Pope's bull. (A laugh.) Judging by the speech delivered by her Majesty, be was perfectly satisfied that no injury wet. likely to be done the Roman esthetics. lie thought the honourable mem ber for Sheffield had brought this subject forward in a meet able manner, showing must satisfacturily that the country had been led away by au erroneous bilpreerion. There was no necemity whatever for the power of the state to support the protestant religion; fur if at was said that it could not Ise maintained within the power of the state, it must follies , that its fouueLetions were nut solid. But con sidering the immense power of the protestant church in this country, the great number of its communicant-, and the enormous amount of its revenues, he thought it would be a very humiliating situation fur any protestant to be placed in, that it should be laid his country was to be overran by catho licism. Ile could not believe that the noble lord who had been for so many years the advocate of religious liberty would at this hour sully his reputation, or attempt to intro duce any measure which could by any interpretation be brought under the denomination of persecutum. (Hear. hear.) He could not help observing that a third of her Majesty's speech was taken up with matter; foreign to this subject—with the affairs of Germany and other countries— while a single paragraph 01113 , was devoted to this important question, which was very like looking after the concern' of other nations rather than our own. Ile should refrain from pronouncing any opinion upon the conduct of her Majesty's government until he had documents before him. But there was an expression in the speech in which he could not agreewithwhat her Majesty was made to say: "I am much ; gratified in being able to inform you that the German Con • federation and the government of Deninirk are now en ' gaged in fulfilling the stipulations of that treaty, and thereby putting an end to hostilities which at one time ap peered full of danger to the peace of Europe." He would , ask if there was a :run in all Enelend who would tell him , he was satisfied at seeing Austria in l e-onsion of the free city of Hamburg, and so placed with the ceneurrenee of the British government. Why, they had door-a:fed the liberties of Germany, as far as they could. They had allowed-Au-trio to be put forward and supported by the brute force of Itainig in oppressing the liberties of Germany. He raw with deep regret the occupation of a free town like Ham burg; and with equal tegret the oppression of all Germany. The hon. memlaer next referred to the tenting* in the speech (erring to the improvements in the administration of jute tier, stating that be was one who had always edvocated reeky tion of taxation, and he vousidered that the. Court of Chan eery was a heavier infliction upon the country than even the mosey Meet that were prat. The ditference was that the latter was at least knoint, while the abuse, of the otbot were not ktyawn, an 4 numbers of perms well employed—he meant the manufacturing class, for be could not say so of the agricultural labe-:rers who were miserably paid, their wages averaging 7s. and Ns. a week in many counties—the noble lord would ems:der whether they did not owe justiee to the working clas , s; to thus intalligont artisans who were the organs of the commercial power of the country. The noble lord ought to consider whether at this very moment they did not owe them some rated of justice, whether they hail not been deprived of those rights and privileges which, under the constitution of this country-, they ought to lasses, and whether the time had not come whin the privileg, I to which they were so entitled .hould he extends d to them. They were ents'led to the protection of their interests. The rich man could defend h:mself against taxation, but the poor man could not, and they required just laws Inc their protection. The noble lord might have difficulties to contend with ; and allusion had been made to his cabinet. He did not cure what the noble lord's cabinet might be : but let the noble lord look bark to his own acts in 18.32, and the promise he then made, that if the reform then granted did not make that house the representatives of the people at large and not mere nominees, he would introduce —and the noble lord pledged himself to introduce—such further reform as should have the effect of making the House of Commons really representatives. Was that really th- case now ? (llcar.) Were we much better off thus before ? Let them look over one-half the house, and see how it was map:Keil. lied the people anything to do with the election of it ? Nothing at all. True the aboli tion of monopoly had been voted, and the e-tablislunent of free trade. Almost all monopolies were destroyed, except the monopoly of power. There was another point to which he would advert. He wished there had been in the speech some assurance from the government that our colonial sys tem would be reformed. Lest year the noble lord had gained credit by the nehle and manly speech he had made, but he (Mr. Hume) wow afraid that it bad tome to nothing after all. The reforms he (Mr. linen° sought would be as advan tageous to the higher as to the humbler classes, and he would now conclude, having stated what he approved of in the eptach, end a het were the omissions he regretted. Colonel SI ISTIIOIIP spoke shortly in censure of the government. but was indistinctly heard. Ile dialer d that the sooner they were got rid of the better. Iteferring to the Greet Exhibition, he wanted to know how much money had been fooled away upon that glass-house ; and he stated hie fen:se . ..ieas tne vf the Lachequer would be called upon to supply deficiencies on account of it. His own opinion was that the noble lord meant to do nothing at all but what he had done before—succumb to that party without which he could not sit in that place. Mr. (rIIANTLET BERKELEY intimated his intention of deferring any statement of opinion until he had heard the measure to be proposed by the government, and then he should watch it like a true peon stant, fur upon that measure the interests of both civil and religious liberty would be brought under discussion. He regretted that there was not in her Majesty's speech any allusion whatever in any way to the state of the tenant farmer, to the suffering be adured, and the oppreseion under which he laboured from tie operation of the income tax. Mr. H. OItATT.tN, in reference to what the honourable secender of the address (Mr. l'eto) had Field of the pros perity of manufactures and trade, said that as regarded Ireland, the only instance of prosperity he knew of was the erection of a clammy len feet high, the effect of which he supposed wooed be to vitiate the air of all the neigh bourheo I. So far as agriculture was concerned, all the tenants and labourer' were leaving Ireland, and that was no very satisfactory prof of prosperity. In 11441, Mr. Larkliam took the liberty of showing that Ire land was capnble of supporting herself, and that she grew twice the quantity of groin necessary for her self-support. Yet shortly after that house was called upon for an ailvanee or loan of several minions to sustain a people, of whom it was asse 'tett they were doubly provided for. There was a paragraph in the royal blench to which he could not help ad verting. It had been announced by Mr. llayter that, on Friday next, it would be sought to introduce a bill in retie , mace to eetheiastical assumptions, the erovisiona of which it was intended should apply to the United Kingdom. (Hear, hear.) Now, in Ins (Mr. Ornttan'g) opinion* it would he long before the members of her Ma jesty's g srnmeov IV.llol be able te• carry such a meaeure tier the Unie d Kingdom. (Hear, hear.) He regarded tine proeeetlings as moat disgraceful. The age was too far advanced for such; and he felt that house would never lend itslf to such a paltry poli tical measure. (Hear, hear.) lion, members ought to remember the year 1829, when this now mooted question had been to all appeurance settled. Either the house then meant to settle the question, or it did nut. (Hear, hear.) If settled, then let it be so; but if not, then all the proceed ings of that period were idle and vain. He (Mr. Grattan) could net understand the language of the letter of the noble Premier, such us " confining the intellect and fetter ing the soul." What was the meaning of fettering the tench? The soul was an essence, and could not be fettered. (A laugh.) Did the writings of the ;treat catholic fathers and historians fetter the soul ? Did Boseu, t. or Manillon, or leenelon fetter the soul ? Or did the Jesuit authors confine the intellect ? (lliar, hear.) Unless the word. e United Kingdom" were erased, and e England or Scotland" substituted, he would contest the matter, anti divide the house on every single stage of the penal and unchristian measure. (Hear.) Mr. BANKES said that before the debate was brought to a concludon there were some pageages in the speech of her Majesty which he and those alto` had the honour of representing the agricultural portion of the kingdom should think it their duty to make some remarke upon. It was observable that when the subject of agricul ture) distre s s was last referred to on the occasion of the opening of parliament many took exception to the mode in which that reference was put forward, inasmuch as the langugee of the Royal Speech (A pe...see' a regret thut rumours of agricultiiral distress were .ife and general. Ile gave the government every credit for sincerity of intention ; but now, after the lapse Of twelve months, when listening to another Boyd Spenh, agricultural dieters* was aßaiu alluded to, although by a reference to the context it would appear as though her Ma jesty's ministers were of opinion it would he of merely a temporary nature. (Hear, hear.) For twelve months the agricultural inter( st haul been labouring under the pressure of great dilticultice, according to the admission of the noble lord ; and at the end of that time, had the noble lord no better assurance to give them than such hope as was to be found in the continued prosperity of the other clients of the community ? No doubt the prosperity of the other classes of the community was very intimately connected with the prosperity of agriculture ; but that it might have its full e&. t, it was necessary that the supplies of food should be produced and drawn from their own agriculturists, and not fruit foreign countries. (Hear, hear.) All the predie tinns and prophecies that had seen made of a return of agricultural prosperity had failed. ( liar , hear.) The members of her Majesty's government Lul told them that they complained too ...on, that they warn only trying an experiment, and that they should not complain until that experiment was fully tested. Supposing that the members of her Majesty's government hail ifrounds for making these statements, they met with no lectioue opposition from his side of the house, and they did not Fens their own opinions with any unreasonable pertinacity; on which account they subjected themselves to obloquy on the part of those whose interests they were sent to watch over. The fact of agri cultural distress bad been again admitted in the speech from the throne, and yet they were still told to wait for another twelvemonth till these difficulties became dieter's, and next year perhaps they would be told to wait till this distress bail become ruin. (Hear, hear.) Ile wished to give the noble lord an opportunity of stating what he proposed to do in the way of relief for the only interest in the country which was suffering. and he could aeenre him that from no hands would they More gratefully receive it, than from his. (Hear, hear.) Lard J. ItUSSELL rose and said—Sir, I rejoice to find that we are not likely to have any division on the question of the address in reply to the Tech from the throne, and that that eddress is likely to he passed by the house, if not unanimously, yet witheMt any amenelinent being moved upon it. (Cheers.) I will, however, address myself to the various topics touched on by the Fennel gentlemen who Lave spoken on the address : and as the most convenient mode, I will advert to these topics in the order in wleleh they appear in her Majesty's speech. The hon. gentleman the member for Montrose began with the strange complaint, that it was unnecessary for her Majesty's govern ment to make so long a reference to foreign af fairs. But it mown have been unknown to the house that a dispute existed between Denmark and Germany, god that a war hail for some time been carried on in Seldeswist-Holetein—a war of the greatest importance not only in respect to the danger it occasioned to the peace of Europe, but a. materially effecting the commerce of this country. (Hear.) It cannot be unknown to the house that the differences which Live subsisted are in fa* enure of adjustment, and that the danger of the hostilities which so long threatened the peace of Europe is likely to be dissipated. I cannot lout rejoice that s uc h Amulet be the case, and I hope that the endeavours made by my noble friend near me (Lord Palmerston), who recommended to one of the contending parties not to enter on hostilities--not to push on hostilities, tend to the other to adopt a tone of conciliation, have not beeu unsucensfni. My hon. friend went on to my that this country ought net to have permitted Austna to un derteke certain measures, or to occupy Hamburg with her troops. Why, that complaint is most inconsistent with the other eomplaint, for if we listened to the former, we would sertain' ly make no men tee; of foreign politico, but if we listened to the latter we would then be at mar with some of the principal powers of Europe. (Hear, he*.) The course we pursued may not be in otwordiwiceorith the views of ethers, but wo certainly used our interest where we thought it would tepd to the peace of Europe ; and in other questions, however impor tent they were to the general interests of Germany, we have not felt it to be our duty to in- terfere in any way. But at the same time we cannot but think that the settlement of the affairs of Ger many and the maintenance of a Power in the centre of Europe, composed of FLA NIA states, acting in harmony to- gether, are of the utnuot importance, and we hope that whilst that power maintains its strength, the separate states which form the confederacy may not only firmly found the constitution. which they have now for a bmg time maintained, but that these constitutions may he male still more favourable to liberty. (Checi-s.) Such sow wish, such is our pray, r, for the w,:lfare of Germany. But we slid not consider ourselves bound to interfere in the concerns of 40,000,00'1 of people, although wa desired that they might ho able to obtain and carry ont freedom and good government for themselves. (Hear, hear.) The neat topic in her Majesty's speech is that to which the hon. gentleman who has .lust sat down adverted, and though I agree with the hou. fc.ntleman in the svmpathv therein ex preesed for the own. rs and occupiers oi land, I differ Prom him in the conclusion at which he arrived. I am afraid I can go on but a little way with the honourable and learnt d gentleman. I certainly wioh with regard to the corn laws that the transition from an extremely rigid and excluqvc system to one of oomph t o freedom of import. had been less abrupt. (Hear. hear.) I believe myself that if this house adopted the measure I proposed in 1840 and 1841. or the mea.ure I proposed shinier to that which was adopted in 1846—that either of these measures continuing for some years would have pre pared the agricultural interest for that complete freedom of trade which now exists. (Hear, hear.) I cannot but feel fur the distress of the agricultural interest as an interest which is on? of the main sources of the prosperity or 04mo/eq. of the country, and as being peculiarly cowl...reed with the landed intense. But whilst I soy this much the hon. and learned gentle man must not suppose that I think the adoption of a fixed duty in 18W or 1811 would have be .n the foundation of a system of permanent duty on the admission of foreign corn. (Meer.) 'f he progress of opinion ' the increase of utanufae tures and commerce would have led befere this time, or by this time, to some such law es that which we now have. (Cheers.) But be that as it troy, my opinion decidedly is that parliament has adopted that system which is centeurent withthe great interests of the country, tends materially to its hapiness, and eyen to its polttical and moral tranquillity. (Cheers.) I believe that if instead of the proposition of 8413, and also of the abuiiton of the corn laws, the government of the dey kid endeavoured to main tain protection to the last hour, tiny would fell in , their object, and that whatever adventures the eeri cultural interest might derive from that eyst-in, I agreat portion of the atfeetions of the nation would he lost in consequenc e, net only to the agriculturel interest but to the authorities of the country, who would lose much of that resets et and regard to which tiny ought to be entitled. (Hear, hear.) Therefore I cannot think that we have adopted a plan which is et variance with the best intereve of the country. (Hear.) 1 never pretended to say—thenech others thought it not unreasonable to eoejecture--that any particular price of cons would prevail. Too many is:renal stances, Oa many elette nts entered into the question of price, to allow any one to perceive, at lease fir some years to come, the particular price of city article of agricultural produce. I never preceeded MI any other coneideretion than this, that if a great manufacturing population, and a great commercial pupulatien, were in a very thriving rendition, and in the habit of consuming str.at quantities of costly food, they should be allowed to get it with out any undue impediments king thrown in their way. I cannot think that the agrieultetral interest is totally dependent—us a corn law induced them to depend—in a certain price of wheat in any particular month ur year. It may be that the landed owners were induced, under the operations of a cent low, to extend the wheat crop. But great changes in the law cannot fail to he accompanied by great changes in habits :mil manacle. so doubt great changes have taken place with regent to agriculture, but it is impossible not to see, ate my hon. (need who seconded the address showed, that Ler the large and inerereing popula tion of this country you must expect a gnat hien aire in the demand for meat. My hon. friend has told you that au in erten! of 30,000 oxen I.IIIIIS into the market of Ciiitelow in one year. That is but a sample, which show e you that agriculture is far better protected by a prosperous state of manufactnres and commerce than by protective laws. (Hear, hear.) The hon. and leaned gentleman says that this is the second year in which the eleecuities of the landed interest have he' a rebind to in the speech front the throne. But in 183 d and 1837, when price., though with a protective system, were no low as now, I remember that on both these occueions, meteion was nude, in the speech from the throne, of agricultural distress. (Hear, hear.) I theretbre cannot believe that any lew which you can pass, or any re usury such us that hinted ut by the hon. and learned gettle man, can write agriealture from !ow prices occashinally. (Iheer.) lint there are at poet nt two circumstances which intluertee prices. It alwaysleappina that when there is a great dearth of an nrtiele, when there is a very high price at a particular time, that high price is followed by increased production and that m ern preelec tion again produces che emcee. Then cheapness saris pro duces an increased tentand, and with the demand the price rises. In the year 11441 we exteerienced greet suffering in this country. We had en unequal harvest. In France they was protection and high Inks..., and yet the French farmers eenentlained of being tu a state of great :eel unexempliel (li— ntel.. The system we have adopt, el mast lie considered et, a whole ; it must be considered as Arlie:big muny articles of manufacture and many articles of agriculture; and parliament must he prepared to decide the epee tioa, if the qu -.non brotteht before it, whe ther it is founded on a soloed prine:ple or not. I remember that Nome quarter of a century :we. when Mr. Huskieson was introdueing, so.newleet timidly, change's with respect to certain articles of manufecture—he task the article of gloves. For a lone while we heard nothing :note frequently in this hon' than complaint , teat the ntanufite tunes of gloves istuld not make vier, es wed or KO cheap a. the French neenufacturer, and that they must be totally ruined; and see seen: implored to wear bud and dear gloves in order to maintain the manufacturers of Yeovil and ether places. Mr. Huskisson did not listen to theme complaints. It helmeted fortunately that this glove interest was not powerful enough to induce this house to depart from its resolutions. Well, no doubt there was distress for a time ; we have no reaeou to suspect that the complaints then made were ill founded. But what do I hear at the present day, some fineuttel-twenty yews after those changes were mule ? Why, I learn front trustworthy sources, from persons in that part of the country, that the glove manufacture was never se flourishing at Yeovil as it is now (h, er, hear) ; that the country fir eight or ten miles mum' is asked to furnish members of dif ferent families to be employed is the eleve trade -, and that, although we were told that gloves could not be made so good or eo cheap there as in keemee, gloves are now exported to that country, and find there a ready sale. (Hear, hear.) This may he a small example, but I hope it will prove sufficient to Convince hon. gentlemen that the system which we adopted was founded upon sound princi ples, and that it is one that we ought to continue. I cer tainly cannot hold out to the hon. end learued gentleman any expectation that a ?re duty i.likely to establithed either by this or by any other parliament. Putting reedy any opinions or prejudice, which the present government may entertain, I am quite sure that the me misers of a government sitting on three benches, when they came to investigate the ques tion, and to inquire into the eieinions and disposition of the people of thisecountry, would shrink from imposing any duty on the importation of foreign corn. (Hear, hear.) I do not believe that a ss, duty would lie viewed hey the farmers in any other light than as a symptom of a return to protec tion, and as justifying a hope that a latter duty or a sliding scale would thereafter be imposed. But that very expecta tion on the part of the friends of pretettion would alarm all who have enjoyed the benefits of the present system. (Hear, hear.) And I mutt say, that although there is distress among the occupiers of land, every account which I have show's that in the agricultural districts, as well as in the manufacturing, the great meet of the labour ing people never had such cumin:nisi of the necessarice of life as they have ut the present time. ((Imre) I was to day looking at a calculation which shows that these who had lees. a week and now here 10s., with their his. could com mand sixteen loaves weekly, and with their 10s. can com mand twenty-four ; and that those who had Ioe. formerly and now have Bs., with their Ins. could command thirteen loaves, and can now command nineteen. Phis is, I believe, a very fair &ample of the general state of the labouring population of this country. There may be certain counties in which the wages knee diminished m a greater proPur tion, hut I believe that such is the general state of the case ; and I also believe that along with the power of ob taining a greater quantity of bread the labouring dame.; have, at the some time, a greater remainder of wages with which to purchase sugar at the diminished price, and to purchase curious other articles, comfort, of lite, which they could not obtain before. I believe that many lebeuring families have fresh meat who for many years previously never saw fresh meat on their tables. Vs by, sir, if this iv the Case, let the hon. and learned gentleman seriously consider what a government would have to do which said to the great mass of the people of this country, " You now have at your command a greater quantity of the comforts of life than you ever had before, but the system is wrung, and you must revert to one under which year privations were great." eYhat chance would a government have—l will not say of passing such is measure—hut of carrying with them the affections and esteem of the people if they could succeed in carrying such a measure. (Hear, hear.) Although the statements of the hon. and learned gentleman have induced me to make these observations, I believe that a great part of those who were favourable to protection, notwithstanding their conviction that the system of protection was a wise one, have now come to the conclusion that it would not be wise for any government to attempt to revert to it. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I pass now to another question upon whi r a great part pf this debate etas turned, and upon which there has been much discussion and excitement in the country for the last three months. And in doing so, I must of course refer to the opinions of the hon. anti learned member for Sheffield (Mr. - Roebuck), who began this debate, and who blamed the government, and blamed me more especially, very much for the part which we have taken in references to this ques tion. The km. and learned gentleman said he approached this question with great pain, and that it was not merely to comply with custom that he use el those words, but he really felt great pain upon this subject. Now, allow me to suegeiit to rte hon. and learned igentk man that I think his pain would be diminished if he would not fall into the habit of supposing that some mean motives have always actuated parties and the leaders of parties in this country—if he would only imagine, that although they eet thew may have somewhat higher ntos may differ from others in opinion, and although they may be utterly mistaken tives for their co nduit than he at present Wean to suppose. (Hear.) It really must be painful to be thinking that none but very low motives actuate public nu a ; and that whether the country is governed by men of one party or another, a mean Jealousy or a hope of netting populeuity Reface them ; and thet they have no other or better motives for the rouse which they pursue. (Hear, I ear.) It would I appear front the hon. unit learned 'antivenin's statement 1 that when Sir Hol,rt Pet! propoked to relieve Roman catholica from their dr.ahilitit....griat immedi ttely seized the opposition, who had been pre%mody friendly to tn that . .onre. Nov. that is pate w. . a aratuito of the hon. and leamed gentleman. The fact is, that we gave our cordhil support to that eminent itatesmut, who is now deceased, when he was talcinT n course which we con- tittered to he for the ben it of the country oat he, 'z - • premd hie FrlteE.ll Ninon of the sudpurt which we rendered to him; and I remember that when 1.4100 " • "' ramlura had oevn taunting other+ for changing tlvir rreini•m*. seid I hop.d that during the whn!e of the doeu....iotut on the bill--the h;.l of I429—there would he cone of thou rt rrnachi s in which the hon. memt,r who had spoken had ICPIM.II ine!inui to iivltalge. I ,an nssure the member, although we do not tak.• credit for any heroic %:rtne in nutter, that we inpiiorted the measure because we thought it would benefit the country. The hon. and learned member likcwi=e blamed me v. ik much, on ace,unt of the letter which I wrote to the 1114 hop of . . I wrote that fitter bmiuge I entertained the ut• which I expres.ed (•. hear, hear," and cheer•); and, rightly nr wr..autly. I could not r:•frnin firm giving publicity to thn , e w•atimcntx. I con.idcr th.tt what ever may 1w tlt: opinions of Roman catholic. of dif- &rent countrks, the court of Rome, pmperly distinguished from the chureh of Home by the Lon. and teamed gentleman, is ever wee:ling for opp..rtuttities of making aggressions not maely ut on the spiritual but upon the temporal interests of the kingdoms with which it may lin, Villeeni. (Bear, hear.) History teach.. s me that ; and I find Cult SOllle of the greatt st friends of !ibertv, sir John Elliott, Smuvrx, and John 4.neke . , haul grmti a (frealr is \ ° V7ll, of sir P3 , w P hat a :; 4m ,...rile w , n .,,, a ,lll„T„f t the ltomau catholtes of Out e .untry ? It bulievii represeitti,lux if the prote. t ant.; of thiq tottutry,tind Lirtottz the foremo.t of them, . • were of a loulden ...ire.' with a rage for prraeution and could not rt•frain from railing the rev of bigotry and intole- mice tin .t our itODUITC fellaw-rountrymen. Now. what o:e the Mei of the r.ro ? In 1791, thr jirl.‘to of the it o maac.ih.a.ic faith and this Ro nnn catitolini Rau:- rally, obtained complete freedom for the vCereia• of - their In th y obtuinrl complete ireedom t) sit in pFliamt:nt, and tg exercise all civil privileges enjoyed by ;heir follow . -vubjetA. Rine that otv.;..ion innova7- I ion• have been mete in our :al, in favour of the ltoninn ea- 4ni leo. With respect to the actull enjoyment of the mil-ll:gra Fronted in 1 4 29, thi, eosernm..r.t, hiet, cannot he blamed . . Ly the Itortunt eaihnhe; for %het i t in the Qua ys houx- hold. whetht r in the civil adrnini•trt; inn, or wilt ther on the Mlarh of jwaire, Roman rath9;ie , have had their talents acknowledged, ant they Lay: been admitted a+ freely as , tnentlwr4 of the etabliNli,al church to civil e.oployment . : On Oth ,übject I will on; v Bute. that at the pe,icut nuun.•nt, of the duty ckotb of the court. of law in Ireland two aro Hannan catholic*. lie haw hem blamed for giving to Homan catho:io frotglom t.nd titlo, to which sMilehnti:gonticuaen think they were not entitled. One irmatlee haw bol cited hy the le.n. and learne d member tor rihettl-1.1 which certainty . . . net turd, but of w'Aieh until lately 1 (lid not know the hh- li t. i that in the I..;irtt depart . .. • numt thy Itoman catholic l'rizu....te of In•lund and the Ito- nun catholic ArchbiNhop of Irdrind had rafp'e, n• such, to the Queen'. Walking-room Thut wax in 'the Gazette by u bl:burainate in the htury of the Qll, n'it ewe!. tioo, nod Lam lint preolred .0 tier, tul the ifiviief Roman cal , ..lirs honours to whieh they were not entitled. Whut - - - - I am showing, however, is ., that there nsally was no 4 rotas of mot la:nt en the part of Roman catholic*. Enasying civil and r• :ightur pelt lieges just as witch an pe e t os tants. wh a t e t :l,m hail they to complain of their nt ? Will, in the midst of these otrurrences, this Roman catholies having hail vicars apostolic in this country for :foil years—hxt ing hail vi• are apostolic, and nothing but Vietelt apostolic, in the reign of Jame" the Second, when every one of the prineipal commoners of the King war a Hainan catholic—what rand iielue• the court of Rome to issue an edict declaring that this country was t s b.. divided into bishoprien, and appointing an Archbishop of IVestmin *ter. of all placer (bear, hear): who immediately proclaimed tool! thereto'', of 1 his country . . • slqie gavent and ;hall vontinuc to govern the emtntien Of :did Ilsex, Esnex, and I fortthrd shire ? (near.) War that a I•pilitlLli 1 1 1:11,-re ? lit• WM/ the lion. member for Ensex weposite to hint, find be would ask him whither the pyulation consistent niensly of Roman catholic.? (Hear.) It must ha owned that the wry wools used, and the who's coostraction of the document, appeared to imply a pretension to place these counties, and all the counties of Englawl. under the away of the new arelihishop. I might he mistaken in that VieW, but there wto a person of ;mat einioente, horning and [dents with mop. et to whoot we all deplore his having lett the pro ts 5........ t church t.nil joined the church of Morn.--I mean Mr. Newman; and a hat did he say Ott thin ettlltleet ? hir. Kea man said there hod scarcely ever before 111111 an M itotic of a net ion which, after having entirely abandoned the elitlich of Wane, hail ....turned again to its ismonuni (((( , hut he wan happy to say that an example mat that. kind had manurial in Ei• r eel, mid he says, s• The Ew s lisli people hate row re oieneil to oisalience to the holy See," What did tied meat? If the Queen had come dawn to parliament as Queen Mary came, tend had declared that the time war come when the nation should return to the faith o: Rom- and to Oval'. nee to the ..... oi 'torn,. and if the Ilietee of Lint. and the Rowse of tvon.aons, coneurrilet with lice hlajesty, had pansed :.n act for that purpcse, that would hardly have gone further than the dislocation of Mr. Nevem tn. (hear, hear.) But, to:- y• 111.1 this, the usual organ; in this country and in France not of the ',ton; ..n catholic party, to of the p ..rly a the; ultra-montane Ilienan eethelles (h ats, hear), bad pro claimed that thin was on tut of great signifieance; they lout declared that it did not ne.an merely that tlwro were to he in England an on Ithishop and In, No bishops, hut that there were to take the place of this Arch bishop of Canterlinry. the Bishop of London, nod all the t eist Mg bishops in England. Well, I say it di l appear to In, that we could not pass over is silence such au nousunip tion. I ask the hon. awl lie.e...arsil member fur Sheffield whether his thinks that if it ling Len paaosii can er in silence we ,hould not have hail saute other step fol lowing it? (Ilene, bear.) I can easily imagine what steps would have taken place, thowta it in rut now ute.ssary to stet- them ; but I believe that the 0041 , 111 Willa% tut , Leen expressed sio generally, oi only universally in Emigre, ten the part of the members of the Church of Englund, and on tb. tutrt of the gnat ma jority of the protestant dissenters, must haves eonvincinl not wily the Rowan catholic, of Englund, aho I really Iklievo v.isitel no such step to Ise taken (hear, hear), bat also the Bonet of Rome that thin country of Engiand is really not a Roman catholic but a proosstant country—that it it really a fact hOWI•Vef (Trevor.: the prati•stunt religion may h.'. that the great body of the people tifthiseinuitty our oro tesdaels. Sir, ifthat is the elf -I of th • re stain ions *hick have h. 'it parred, awl the. addresser which have lure presented, by that national declaration alone we skull, I think, have hasell ourselves from any attempts on the part of the court of Rome which might lead to forth. r collision v.ith the par liament rod the people of thin eanutry. (Ileac, hear.) Sir, I have said that I believe the Roman eathoEto of Eng land generally did nut wish for this change. Out looking at the papal documents 1 find the vie iv-upostolic Wavy . put forward; that throe vicars-apostolic wished to hr coma bishops, with tiths taken from sees in thin country, I weatese certain solvontages, certain powers over m.adowmeuts, certain privilege c nut taloweing to them us vie ie. apostolic, would be possessed by them if they could establinli themselves as bishops. This may be a very good rearm a li y the vicors aportolic might wish to claim these titles, but I believe that the lay Roman catholic.., of this, country although when the measure war taken they could hinny repudiate it, neither wished for it before it was takeu, nor approve of it at the preseut time. I have Well told 5.1.. not by pro testant-, but by Roman catholic priests; and I Is.lWve that we now stand in a position in which we can adopt m. astute that will he satishietory, wit only to protestant-. but also to those loyal Itionan catheher aho wish ta preserve their allegiance to the crown unimpeothed and unimpain ii (cheers), and who dread the prevalise, of those ultra-mon tane doctrines which have in every country in Europe beta opposed by every Roman i idiotic who has cherished any rem. rd for freedom. (hear, hear. (Rear, hear.) The hon. Metelke for Kent (M.. Plumptre has warned me (hut in il, ding with thin subject I shout bear iii mind the very strong le ntimeuts which arc enter tained with rescued to it, and should not fall rhors of tho expectations of the people of this country. I shall be pos. prod. to propose a measure as strong aa my . UtVII convictions head me to consoler necessary. I shall nut veld ta Iltlyetle Ott that subject; I shall not bate any part of what I think ne eessary; hut, on the other hood, I cannot introduce measures which I consider to go beyond the occasion, or which would in any way trench upon what I think due to the re 'igloos lihert v of all ekesses of her hlajesty'ssul•jects. (Ileac.) I shall wadi:ran it necessary IM t h is occasion to say more on this topic than that I consider the present authority pos sessed by parliament in fully sufficient to deal with the whole of these trunractionn, and the questions arising oat of them. I believe that the specific measure I shall on a future day prop's.: fur the adoption of thin house will bo found to tend to the establishment of harmony anti good feeling among all the various classes and professions of I +hall nut now proceed to enter upon any length- Christians in this country. (Hear, hear.) flit., on this account, toed reply to the remark,. of an hon. men den. who has pre ceded me in this debate, and who said that I had employed, in a letter of mine, certain language insulting to the feel , Mgr of his Itonsart catholic fellow-subjects. I, beg to declare that I have nicer insulted the feelings of my Roman catholic countrymen. I made sumo observations, and to them the honourable gentleman seems to allude—observations which I thought myself fully authorised in offering, but which hail reference, not to theft ,to whom the hon. gentleman would apply them, but to a section or body of the church to wh i ch I myaolf belong. ! (Loud cheers,) The matter of those obsenatiuns may have been right, Or it may hare been wrong ; but Idu of conceive that any candid Roman catholic, on perusing them, would ' feel that they were intended to apply to bine. Ido not think it was fair in the hon. gentleman to find an applica tion for those observations in parties fur whom they were never meant; but it in sufficient for mu to state, that in making them I used no stronger terms than I had heard the bishop of my own diocese employ in speaking of the sumo body in our own church. (Bear, hear.) With respect to the present condition of this grave gun lion, I shall be prepared to state on Friday neat what that condition appears to us to be, and udist is the nature of the remedies a herewith w., to meet it. That measure will be general in i .1 . t. to the whole United Kingdom. (Item., he • knew tit... , him been doohted whether, *A what has ' ; this would be so. I know it bas been surmised t e bne *.. .o'n of t h e united Ring4mt would be mein *tali. 're, d t hox such is not the het. It never has been • t olgopyloi % % . ~.-g ; . mad% as.vt%i ~~~~ Durha::l P