The Express. — London, England, 1853-06-28 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS.—MONDAY, JUNE 27. The LORD CILINCIILLon took his seat at 5 o'clock. PETITIONS PRESENTED. IN•rt(I110% or NuNetutr.a.—By the Earl of EGLIN TON, front liihnernock and another place, in favour of. COUNT NESSELRODE'S CIRCULAR NOTE. Lord LINDBURSI wished to know whether the noble Earl at tne head of her Majesty's government would have any objection to lay on the table of the house a copy of the State paper recently published in the state jourisai+ of St. Petersburg, signed by Count Nesselrode, ret , p tic the differences between Russia and the Parte ? As he was r.ot ecioneeted with her Majesty's rovernnient, be could von tare to stole, without causing . eadblnaternent, that if the copy of that document wluea ho had atria vine cornet. it owl one of the must illogical, oit•nsive, and insulting ilecuments of that dtacripti in which he haul ever had the misfortune to read. (Laud cries of " Hear, hear.") The E trl of ABERDEEN was unelerstooil to reply that he comet alt say at the mum. n: whether he could comply with the r.qtecet et th , nob:r aid learn: ,1 lord, but in a few days hence he might not beindiaposed to do so. THE COUNTESS DE ROLLAT. Lord AIII'NOEIt, paraaant to notice, presented a peti tion from the Count as de !Want (bone Conway), claiming indemnity under treaty for property of her mother, the Countess Conway, confiscated by the French government in liter. Thu LORD CHANCELLOR said if their loreL'aipe enter tained the p. titles he did not soo why every ilisappoiated suitue is es.ry court throughout the kingdom might not, 2 0 ) years anew the termination of a suit, w 1 saer it had been for tor t en, come turward and sok to be compensated out of the public tousle. But this lady ealinitted that she 111 , 111 not a British subject, and, therefore, else had nut a par ticle of right from the beginning. Under thou elm's stances ho did not think this petition eoula be entertained. After a few wards frAn Lord ALz.aural in reply, the aubjeet dropped. RVSAIA AND TURKEY. Th. Marquis of CLAN it ICARDE postponed his motion on this subject, which stood for Thursday, until Friday week. THE IMPORTATION OF BRITISH SALT INTO The Marquis of WESTMINSTER presented a petition from Nertheriets, praying that English salt may ho im ported ante all parts el Britith India neon the same terms and cenditinne ip other g rode and reinutsctures. Earl (ALIN ri1.1.1.1 said it would be irneossible to felDo7,, this tea, without imposing some other tax on the ewe* of laths, aeft it should be remembered that the principle applied to all countries, anti especially to oriental countries, that the people would nay a tax they were trees towed to. but would not pay a 1111:W tax. He believed that the Isge ration which bad taken place in Indio had been to encourage the importation of salt, end he believed the last returns showed that the silt imsorted into India from Great Bitain ter the lest six months was equal in quantity to what hod bees impede: in any previous twelve months. Ald it the noble tuarquis read the evidence gitt'll before the eeninsittce of the House of Commons, ho would see it was a slantiou whether, if the sett duties were entirely el, !hit would not eselude British salt from India. Lord WHAIINCLIEFE said it appeared to him there was tenon troth in the eroeosition which was Ant enuneWted by a einunittee of tha Hesse of Commons, he Brought, in the yeir ISM, bat, by judicious dealing with the salt monopoly in India, and substitutieg a system of import duffer, and cerise duties, where necessary, a eonselerable Hems, of revenue might be obtained with a much greater extension of trade. The contemn:ln then dropped. INCCIIDERED EiT.VTES (lIIEL.IND) ACT CON TINUANCE BILL. On the question of stein; into committee on this bill, Lad ST. LEONARDS suggested that the government should not prig" is bill in Its erestnt shape, and should not ',ripest any singin bill for a lugger period than six mouths. If his suggestions were sot accesed to Lu should oppose the further errors, of the bill. The LORD CHANCELLOR regretted that his noble and learned felted had not been present at the previous stages of the bill, when the objections which he now Mitred might have been better considered, sad when the noble and learned lord would have heard the views of the government as the general question. Be agreed test this legi-lation was exceptional; and at variance with established principles. With re seed to the second clause, affecting tenancies for life, to which greet objection w. 13 taken in Ireland, the govern-' ment would a meet to withdraw it. (Hear.) After some conversation, The house went into committee. Claes, I was agreed to, with verbal amendments. Clause 2 was, after some discussion, on the suggestion of Loral Sr. LIONAIRD . S, struck out, the LORD CIIANCELLOR undertaking to p_ spare and bring up a clause better framed to carry Put its object, et another stage of the bill. The clauses, with the exception of 11, were agreed to, and the hoses resumed. BARNSTAPLE ELECTIONS. The Earl of ABERDEEN moved thioir lordships to agree with the Commons in the address to her Majesty for a corn =listen to inquire into the terrain practices at the Barn- steteile elections. The motion was agreed to. TYNE MOL:1 ft ELECTION. The Earl of ABERDEEN melee their lordships to agree to the address of the Commons in this case. The Marquis of CLANIIICARDE thought there was not sufficient ground for calling upon their lordships to agree to the address, and ho should divide against the mo tion being speed to. There was only one single case of bribery. The Earl of ABERDEEN said that although there had only been one case of bribery by the giving of money, it mint be remembered that the tickets fur refreshment were f.deatile. Their lordships had net had the advantage of bowleg the evidence which had been given on the sub ject, and elute( not judge, as well as the other house of par liament, the expediency of such a measure. Their lordsleps then divided, when the numbers were : Contents 33 Non-contents l3 Majority in favour of the address.. 20 INCOME TAX BILL. The Earl of ABERDEEN moved the third roadiog of this hill._ . Lard BnotoHAm objected to the tax, because it was a tax on capitol, on out going t zpenditute—a capital used ' by manufactut - re, merchants, and agriculturalists, invested by them in itoprovements. Ho could net allow this last stage of the biii to pass without again entering his protest against it. After come remarks from Lord MONTEAGLE, The third reading was then agreed to. Oa the question that it do pass, The Earl of WICKLOW rose to state that, at this stage, be had an amendment to move embodying his views that this tax would affect unfairly the land of Ireland. Ile concluded by 'eying tkat as his amendment (the effect of which would be to make the tax payable byte occupier instead of by the landlord) would but put the bill in the form in which it stood when introduced, he hoped the government would not oppose him. • The Earl of ABERDEEN said that the change made in the bill was not owing to the influence of any particular class of members in thu House of Commons. The change was the result of a conviction on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the plan deprecated by the noble earl was the only ja,t one. He did nut think ft consistent with the duty of the government to give any sanction to the proposition of his noble friend. Lord BEAUMONT, with pest warmth, denied that this was simply an Irish question, hut one in which the princi ple of the tax was involved. The bill came with a lie on the taco of it, fur, according to its provisions, it professed to tat property producing income ; but whsn you came to the machinery, it was found that a tax was imposed on that property which produced nothing. The Duke of NEWCASTLE could admit of no analogy between Enpland and Ireland, because in the one the inte rests of the landlord and the tenant were identical, while the payment of the tax by the tenant, which would ulti• motel fall upon the landlord, was easy and unobjectionable. Slicer, hear.) The Marquis of CIiANRIC.IIIDE was well convinced that this was not the last atimu the question would be brought forward, the mare so because the bill as it now stood was directed against that class whom the government should be the most ant'sus to cor.'.iliate, while the rase would prove that the money which the tax might yield would ba considerably disproportionate to the opposition which it would raise in Ireland. (Clear, hear.) Lor l CA.MPBELL felt it to b.: his duty to vote for the amendment, as he had often heart It proclaimed in their lordships house that the law of the two countries ought to be assimilated as much as vosiible. After souse further CAITITNItIOI3, Their lordships divided, when there appeared: For the amendment ld Against it On our mirlminsinn into the gallery, The Earl of LUCAN was addressing the hoase. cam plainiog of the 12nd clause, which allows the deduction of ore-third in respect of terminable annuities payable by lam:lords in repayment of loess. He mom!, the entruisioo of the clause. Atter some disenstioa, in which the Duke of AUOTIL sad the Loan CIIANLLI.LcoIi supported the clause, sad the Earl of Wit Know and the M.isquis of Care.Nlettattli Opposed if, their lordships div:dtd. For the amendment lO Against it The clause was then agreed t and the bill was read a third time and passed. CIIARITABLE TRUSTS BILL. This bill WAS read a third time and passed. EXCISE DUTIES ON SPIRITS BILL. This bill was reed a second time. Their luedships then adjourned at five minutes past one o'clock. ROUSE OF COMMONS.—MoNDAT, JI;NE 2:. The Ser.ezza took the chair at 4 o'clock. NEW MEMBERS. Mr. yitt u..CT l - 110 - 1; . illll - 0 - 16;;;Tiis Rat for rotor- Kt. U. Vi urcort took the oldie and hi seat for Chatham. i Rlial E BUSINESS. The Lords' amendments to 51;1iollorring ... bills were read and agreed to —Ballyrritna, Ballymoney, Coleraine, and rortrashgabetiets RaUwallo. ; Bristol Gas and Bristol mad_Calton Ciaa, CompaaWArnalgamation ; Londonderry, Coleraine, and Belfast Jimmies It ulway • North British Railway; Scottish Midland Junction hallway ; South Shields Improvement; The following bills were reads third time en I paued : Dewsbury, Reckmondwike and Batley Water: Rant wick and Wooer Road Guth Wales Mineral Railway ; United Guarantee and Life Assurance Company; Wake fkld and Sheffield Road; West Cornwall Railway • Bills. WARRINGTON AND ALTRINCIWI JU NCTION RAILWAY (WARRINGTON, Sm.) BILL. Capt. EIiERTON moved that this bill be recommitted in order that certain clauses might be added. General ANSON opposed the bill so foto. It was sup ported by a statement containing a tissue of pretended facts, which were, in reality, false. This statement made charges against the London and North Western Railway, which had out a particle of truth in them. He ►eked the house the more confidently as the reitztion would not present the formation of the line, but only stop the Warrington Rail- way Company from using the Loudon and Norm Western Company's terminus and statiou at Manchester. Re, there fore, moved that the recommittal ut the bill be negatived. The house divided. For the recommittal of the biU Ag drat it 96-40 The iiiiiowieg bills were conaidered and ordered to be read a third time :—Llynvi Valley Railway ; London and Norh Western and Buckinghamshire Railways; London and North Western Railway:(l'ring and Oxford); castle-upon-Tyne Improvement; Pendleton, Swinton, &e., Road Ss antea Valley Railway; Birk( natail Datk Com pany ; Eirlienhead back Trustee"; Lindaulerry, Ennis &Wen, ant S,igo Railway (No. 2); Bills. The following bills were read a second time :—Baroness de Village' Euate: Crowe's Dieahiliti. s Removal ; Bills. NOTICES OF MOTIONS. EDUCATION BILL. Lord J. MANNER'S, en the sreond reading of this bill, to mole that it be read a sceund time that day three months. DOCKYARD APPOINTMENTS. But as the Conn of Directors were paid by estrange and not by stipends, they of name disposed of that ;tannage to their friends in this country. He vented to see a larger number of the natives brought into the employment of the government. (" Hear, hear" front an hen. member.) Yes, but the same thing was promised in 1833, tad it was reentemplated in the act of parliameet, but it us • serried out, sad it never would be as bog as the patronage was disposed of in its present form. (Hear, bee.) But fenny got rid of the double government and wade the valuate r fur India responsible fa the government let India then public opinion in this country would be beseght to beer upon him, and he would be applied to distribute more of his patronage amonot the natives, be cause the people of this country would rot endure that the vast patronage of India should be in the sands of the minis ter of the crown for distribution amongst his political sup porters hen. There was another poiot *Lich was a used the preeieitaney with which the measure had been brought for se arel,aud he believed it was not noticed before in the course of the ilehate. Ile referred to the state of the relations be tween the vessels of war in the Indian waters, and the govern ment of India; and in illustration of what be meant, he stated what had taken place on the breaking out of the Bunn( ee war. Now the :mint which he wished to illustrate by this episode was this, that Lord Dalhousie had no power to give orders to Commodore Lambert on that ,cation, aced all he could do was to solicit the co-operation of the (lee n', ships just as he might solicit the co-operation of the ships of a friendly power. IC the order had been tent out by the First Lori of the Admiralty, would Commodore Lambei t have dead to disregard hie order*, and violate the precise instructions he had received ? (flee, hear.) Lord Dalhousie himself sent a communica tion to the President of the Board of Control (Load Broughton) expressing a hope, that bathe renewal of the next charter act this anomalous state of the relations be tween her Majesty's vessels and the government of India would be provided for. (Hear, heat) But there was nothing on this important subject in the present bill, and was not this &nether ground for delay till they had °b eldam' further information? (Hear, hear.) lie had now to say a few words on the subject of the finances of India, and in speaking on this subject he could not separate the finances of India from those of England. (Hear, hear.) If the finances of the Indian go vernment received any severe and irreparable check, would not the resources of England be called upon to inset the emergency and to supply the deficiency? (Hear, hear.) Three times during the present century the Court of Direc tors called on the house to enable thorn to get rid of the difficulties which pressed upon them. (Hear) And did they suppose that if such a case were to occur again that England would refuse her aid ? Why the point of honour, if there were no other reason, would compel them to do sin Did they not hear it said that their Indian empire was con cerned iu keeping the Russians nut of Constantinople, which was GOJO macs distant from Calcutta, and if they were raising outworks at a distance of Geo° miles, let no man say that the finances of England were not concerned in the financial condition of India (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Guildford touched on this subject on Friday night in a tone that rather surprised him : he taxed those who opposed the measure with a readiness to swallow anything, and twitted his hon. friend (Mr. Bright) with saying that the debt of India con tracted since the last charter act was 20,000,)001. The hon. gentleman (Ur. Mangles) said it was only 2,000,000/.: he said that 13,000,0001. was the increase of the debt, but that there was 4,006,0001. is the exchequer. He (Mr. Cobden) would quote the evidence of Mr. Mcßae who eigned all the papers that came before the committee on ads point. Mr. Melvill, being asked what the amount of the debt was, says :—The amount of the debt is over 20,000,000/. After this answer of Mr. 31elvill, what became of the statement of the hon. member for Guildford ? (Hear, hear.) But he must say, that there was a very great difference in the opinions and statement of Indian authorities. He appealed to the house, whether the management of India should he entrusted to those who took stock in a waysthat would not satisfy a commissioner of bankruptcy in tho case of the humblest retail trader? The amount of defalcation in the course of the last twenty years was 28,000,0001., and if the company went on in the same manner for the next twenty yam, they would have run up a debt of nearly 100,000,000/. Hs saw no benefit which could arise to the man of the English people from their con nexion with India, except that which might arise from honest trade; he did not see how the millions of this country were to share in the patronage of India, or to derive any advent/tee from it except through the medium of trade; and therefore he said emphatically that if they could show him that the East India Company was the reality which many persons supposed it to be, he should not be the party to wish to withdraw their responsible trust, and to place it again in the hands of a minister of the British crown. But when he saw that this vast territory was now being governed under a fiction, that the govern ment was not a real one, but one which one of the most able se nuts of the company had declared to be a 'ham, he said—Do not let the people of this country delude them irises with the idea that they can escape the responsibility by putting the government behind • screen. lie wished, therefore, to look this question fairly in the face; he wished to bring the people of this country face to face with the difficulties and dangers with which he thought it was beset. Let it no longer be though; that a few gentlemen meeting in Leadenhall-street could screen the people of England from the responsibility with which they had in. vested themselves with regard to India. Since the granting of the last charter more territory bad been gained by conquest than within any similar period before, and the acquisition of territory had been constantly accompanied with a proporioeate increase of debt. They bad annexed Sattara, and their own blue blooks proved that it was governed at a loss ; they had annexed Seinde, and their own hooks proved that it too was governed en loss; they bad annexed Pegu, and their own authorities said that that annexation also would involve a loss All these losses must press on the mere fertile provinces of Bengal, which were constantly being drained of their resources to make good the deficit. Let him not be told by and bye that the annexation of Pere and Burmah would be beneficial. What said Lord Dal housie ? (Hear, hear.) He said in his dispatch—and the dictation should not be forgotten—that he looked upon the emulation of Pegu as an evil second only to that of war itself, and if they should he obliged to annex Bur math, then farewell to all prospect of amelioration in Indian affairs. (Hear, hear) Well then, believing that U this fictiou were destroyed—if this mystery were exter minated—there were alreally the germs of a better state of things in reference to this question ; and believing that as yet they were profoundly ignorant of what was wanted for India, he should vote for the amendment, that they should wait for two yearn; and he hoped sincerely that the house would agree to it. (Cheers) Sir J. GRAHAM said— I hope the house will permit we to address them on the question under their considera- Aire. (Cheers.) I have long given my attention to the subject; and it so happens, that when on the last occasion, dos renewal of the term of government for twenty yews was Needed to by parliament, I had the honour, as a member lid Lord Grey's government, of being associated with the Mennittee of the cabinet which considered the 'eilleselierm in that scheme. My hon. and learned friend the siaelmir for Beth (Mr. nine) spoke of what be considered sty desertion of whig principles in reforms' to the genre 'sent of India. Now, it so happens that la the committee to which I have referred, I was associated in pmr,pexllg the scheme with Lord Lansdowne, with Sir Jenne Xsedantosh, and with my eight hon. friend the member for Edinbusgh, whose voice I, in common with the house, have rejoiced to hear again within these walls—(cheers) —and the mimes was adopted by the united voice of many distinguished members of the administration to which I now belong. Now I do not conceive it possible that a graver or more difficult subject . than this could be discussed in any legisla ture. (Hear, hear.) I am happy to pantie° that although there is much difference of opinion on the subject, there has not been up to the prevent moment' the slightest taint of party or factious feeling in the mode of handling it. (Hear, hear.) It has been objected that the measure has no character of perma nence about it. I admit that, as we propose it, it is not for any find period, and is so tar iudefinite on the face of it ; I but it is my opinion that if the measure be found good, with the alterations that we propose, it will be for the per manent government of India. If the alterations that we ' propose shall be proved by experience to be defec tive, it will be fur the wisdom of parliament at any ' time to apply the nee&ary corrective. (Rear, hear) Now, although I differ widely from the noble lord (Lord Stanley) on the question which we are now discussing, I must say that I heard the speech in which he proposed the amendment with very great pleasure. (Cheers.) It was a speech of great ability, but was still more distinguished by its candour and by the absence of anything like pasty taint. (Hear, hear.) The noble turd has done well in employing his leisure in visiting the dependencies of this country, and thereby gualifyirg himself to sustain hie hereditary fame by the display of those talents which he would he unworthy of his father if he did not possess. The candour, however, of the noble lord's admissions greatly weakened his pro position. (Hear.) The noble lord seems to approve of many i of the provisions of the bill. There an, I believe, about 43 or it clauses, and as far as I could collect from the noble lord's need:, there are only two or three to which be ob- I juts. But the important questions connected with this dis cussion arc two—the question of delay, and that of single or double government. 'I hese are the real cardinal points to be decided by the opinion of the house. First, as to the ques tion of delay. I have already alluded to the opinion of Lord Dalhousie, and I may add that the subject is a grave and important one under any circumstances, but the gravity Mil difficulty are very much increased by the mecum etsenee of the present moment. Look around our Indian empire and see in what way it is surrounded. China, on ooe side, what is the state of affairs there ? A serious revolution in progress, the effects of which are only imper fectly developed, a great struggle of races going on between the Tartars and the natives, and the effects not to tie foreseen by any present calculation. Then we come to Burmah. I hope and belit cc that the contest there is draw ing to a close, and that the greatest danger has been over come, but still there is some uncermainty as the final issue. Neither can we overlook the position of Nepaul. And all these considerations point to the wisdom of the advice given in another place by Lord Elienborough, wee said that the time had arrived when we should put ewe house in order. (Hear, hear.) What does Lord Ilardiege fay ? Does he counsel delay ? lle says, that whatever may be your de cision, it is your duty to decide at once. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Wilberforce Bird is also, 1 be lieve, against delay; and again, we have the opinion in the same direction of the right hen. member for Stamford. I told you what was his opinion in committee, and far from receding from that opir ion, the right hon. member has avowed .t in his place in this house, propo sing that we should proceed to immediate legislation. Hear, hear.) Sir J. llobhouso and Lord l'anmure are for imme diate legislation, and, I need not add, so is my right hon. friend the; present Fiends:fa of tho Ogled of Control. K EATING, on the 6th of July, to mon— " hat, referring to the report of the select com mittee on dockyard promotions, and the evidence on which it is founded, this house is of opinion that during the administration of the late Board of Admi ralty the patronage of the dockyard momoti ins and the in fluence of the Admiralty, were used and exercised for poli tical purpoms, to an extent and in a manner calculated to relleet dinewedst upon that department of the government, and to impair the efficiency of the. terrier. " THE INDIA IoII.L.—(ADJOURNED DEBATE ) The motion for reeding the order of the day having been pat and armed to, this debate was resumed by Mr. COBDEN, who said the question before them was the whole government of ludia; and the problem to solve was, whether they should have *hot was called a single era double government. In discussing that qeestion i.e was met with this difficulty—he did not see and could not understand that it was a double government. lie hail sought in vain to find what power the Court 01 Directors had to entitle them to be called a government at all. Looking through the act of 1534 to find what irresponsible power was given to them, he found they had Lone whatever, r xcept the ilinoosal of the patronage. The act lett the whole controlling power to the bested of commissioners tar managing the affairs of India; therefore, he looked upon the Court of Directors, not as a government, but as nothing but as a screen, be hind which the real government was hid. (Hear.) It was because ho wished to get rid of that screen, and that the real government might stand before the house and the world in its proper character, end take v pen its shoulders the responsibility of the misgoverament of India—if there were any—that he wanted to have this matter eimplefied, and to uo away with the double gereduarnt, i e., to bring into one office the government of India. (Hear, bear.) Mr. Hardman, the conductor of the Friend of India, a strong advocate of " thim,s as they are,' admitted that if there was no power vested in the. Court of Directors but the disposal of the patronage, that it was no government at all ; and that was oil the power they possessed. The evil of this mystery was, that where the responsibility of the government existed could Lordly be pointed out by any intelligent person. (Hear, hear) lhoro could bo nothing worse than mystery its the forms and proceeding, of an administration except it were mystery es to the source whence those proceedings emanated. We bad been lately simplifying our courts of law and getting rid of fictitious firms of proceeding ; we had abolished " John Doe and Richard Roe." (Hear.) Here was " John Doe " and " Richard Roe " in the form of the Indian government ; and for whose benefit ? (Hear, hear.) Was it for the be nefit of the people of India Mr. Zdarshman himself, though he did nut speak of carrying on the govern ment of India under the crown, distinctly and repeat idly laid ,it down that the government of 'oldie should be carried on in one office, that the President of the Board of Control, or whoever was the responsible minister of India, should sit in the same mum with those who constituted the council, now the Court of Directors in Leadenhall-street, and should communicate with them orally, instead of by correspondence as at pre sent. But what were the evils of this delusive form of go vernment ? The first and greatest of all was this, that pub lic opinion was diverted from the subject, that that en lightened public opinion was oat brought to bear on Indian question!, which would be the case if India were governed in the name of the crown, just the same as the eolonies Lad been. It might be answered that if India were coverned as the colonies had been it would be governed badly ; but if any good had arisen from our government of the colonies, it had come from enlightened public opinion emanating from this country, and chiefly brought to bear on cur culonial empire in that house. (Hear, hear.) If there were any hope fee the amelioration of India, it must come from the tame source; and he wanted the Indiau government to haveittch a tangible, visible form, that the public opinion of this country might be able to reach it, and that there might be no mask or screen before it as now. (Hear, hear.) With an enlightened ;public opinion brought to bear more directly on the aeries of India, there would be a hedge chance of avoiding that source of all fiscal ember regiment, conatut wars and constant annexations of terri tory. (Hear, hear.) In other parts of the world, no Maim ter of the crown would take credit for offering to annex territory anywhere.. Oa the west coast of Africa it might not be less profitable to extend our territory than in Bur mah ; yet a resolution of a committee of that house, many years ago, forbad the extension of our territory in tropical countries. Wines au adventurous gentleman, Sir James Brooke, went out and took possession dimmer territory on the coast of Borneo, the enlightened government of Ste R. Peel and his colleagues resolutely resisted all attempts to indace them to occupy as territory there. Recently, when it was announced in the house that orders had hese given to the admiral on that station that on no account should any fresh territory be acquired, the announcement was received with loud cheering. (Rear, hear.) We had arrived at a point when public opinion in the house and the country would prevent any such thing ; and he believed that the leading statesmen en both sides would resolutely set themselves against any extension of our territory in tropical countries. Then how was it that this went on constantly in India, to the loss and dilapidation of the finances ? With a declaration in the journals of that house and in an act of parliament never repealed, that the honour and interest of this country was concerned in not extend ing its territory in the east, still these continual annexations went on intact's'. Why did these things happen? it was because at the present time all the authority in these mat ters was left in the hands of the Governor-General of India. lie said virtually, because he believed they rested in point of law with the President of the Board of Control. No thing could be more conclusive than the distinctness of the avowal of Lord Broughton that he was responsible for the war in Affghanistan ; and Lord Eilenborough declared that when ho was president of that Board, he knew that he governed India. He was, therefore, astonished when be heard the right honourable gentleman opposite (Mr. Berries) state that neither he nor his predeces sors in office were responsible for the wars in India, but that the governor-general was the person responsible for them. When there existed such differences of opinion on such an important guidon, • question which involved not only the fate of India, but of England, was it not high time to come to some definite understanding on the subject ? (Hear.) Was it not right, when such differences of opinion existed between men of the highest authority, that there should be a little delay, in order that they might all come to an understanding on so vital a point ? (Hear.) Practically he believed that these things were carried ;on in India where the governor-general was surrounded by an atmosphere of a warlike tendency—where the mere rumour of twat was received with favour by all that constituted public opinion in that country. (Hear, hear.) Even Lord Dalhousie himself nays on this subject, that it was his deliberate opinion that in the exercise of • wise policy nothing could be said against acquiring new territory or revenue. (Hear, hear.) Yet this was aid in the teeth of an act of parliament which declared that it wan contrary to sound policy to an nex any more territory to one dominions. (Hear, hear.) And this declaration of Lord Dalhousie came out before the declaration of the l'resident of the United States, General Pierce, who made a qualified declaration that the Uuited States would annex territory by every just and lawful mean*, and which declaration of litho l'resideat of the United States was received with great dis favour in this country. The English people and parliament were apt to regard the government of India as something apart from their own interests, as romrthing for which they were not responsible—froas which they were to anther fruits without tho responsibilities that should aceurnpany them ; and it was his firm opinion that nothing would awaken the people of England to a full sense of the responsibbity and peril which attached to them in this matter, bat a due appreciation of the state and prospects of the revenue of India. (Ileac) He would now refer to the aeeret committee of the India House. Ile should like to have the cross-examination of every member of the • and to ask them what did they know of this tecret committee. It was composed of three gentlemen from the Board of Directors, to whom all the communication: front the Board of Control were made. It was in the power of the President of the Board of Con trot to tit down and pen a despatch to this secret committee, ordering the annexational China. And they wore bound to obey, however much they ✓alet disapprove of such an order. (Hear.) They were obliged to send out the order, and the Court of Directors themselves would know nothing on the subject till perhaps the public papers brought back the news from India, for the secret committee were sworn to secrecy. (Ileat. bear.) I:nder such circumstances, they did not deserve the name of a government. And what could be the iss• five for inducing then twenty-four gentlemen to endure being taunted with the evils of a syatcm where they were held to be responsible and yet not trusted with power ? (Hear, hear.) The reword which they received (or sub mitting to this humiliation was the patronage of India and this was another evil arising front the system of double government. It was one of the evils of this system that the patronage ass in a great many instances given to Europeans where it ought to be given to natives. (Rear.) The chairman of the committee also—who can forget the impressive manner in which he delivered his opinion, when, as the result of two sessions' experience in Nominee, he warned you against the danger of delay ? (Hoar, hear.) Ndw, so mach for opinions ; but I would also plaice at the reasons which, as it appears to me, ought to influence cur decision on this question. It must not be forgotten how slender is our tenure of India. (Hear, hear.) It is in fact mainly an empire of opinion, and if you shake confi deuce in that country as to the permanence of your rule or the steadiness of your government you are certain to damage the very foundations of your power. (Hear, hear.) So much for the question of delay, and now to turn to the important question of the single or double government. I admit that the Court of Directors, acting in concert with the government and as an instrument or the government, is an anomaly, but arc we not surrounded with anomalies, both in this country and India? Is not our position in India the greatest of all anomalies ? (Hear, hear.) But the system of check and cJunter-check and the balance of power is not a principle which will be found ob jectionable in a British lrgi.la.ure, and besides, you have the experience of 80 or 70 years as to the advantages of this mode of administering the government of India. The noble lord who moved the amendment made an admission, to which I have not before adverted. He said, " t the tree be tried by its fruits." I am willing to have the government of India tried by that test, and to assert that, on the whole, the double govern ment has worked well for that country. (Hear, hear.) First let us look to the evidence. The noble lord thinks we hare not had enough, and my hon. friend the member for the West Riding would crossesamine every member of th;s house on the subject. But every person capable of giving evidence has been called before the committee and already examined. You have had two Governors-General, Lords Ellenborough and Hardinge, and also Mr. Wilber force Bird. In the civil melee you have bad Sir George Clerk, Mr. Mill, Mr. Prinsep, Mr. Trevelyan, Mr. Halli day,' and Mr. Marshman, to which I may add the distin guished member for Rochester, who sits opposite. In ad dition to this we have had the evidence of two of the very ablest men who ever gave attention to Indian affairs, Messrs. Melvin and Mill. Mr. Mill is intimately ac ' qusinted with the whole machinery, and, therefore, al most competent person to give an opinion on the sub ject. It may be said that he is the servant of the com pany, but surely all who know him know that he is far less dependent on the company than the company is dependent upon him. Dime is one answer of his which appears to me conclusive as to the value of the double government : Ile is asked—" What are the advantages of the division of the home government of India into two distinct bodies, the Court of Directors and the Board of Control ?" It affords, pre• sent system by its effects, and with that view _ just glance at this question of finance. In 1833 the public debt of India was 38,0./0,0001. Now it had risen to 53,000,0691., being an addition of 15,000,0001. ; but then in 1833 there were only 8,400,000!. of balances in the Indian exchequer, whereas now the balances in the Indian exchequer were 15,000,0001.; so that deducting this surplus of 6,600,0031 from the 15,000,0001. apparent increase, it followed that the actual addition to the debt was only 8,400,000/., and that after the Affghan war, the Burmese war. the Punjaub woe, and the war in Scinde, four of the most expensive and most important wars in which we had ever been engaeed in India, and all of them conducted to a most successful con clusion, with an addition of only 8,400,000/. to the public debt. (Hear, hear.) But the debt must always bear some relation to the revenue, and when they were told there was so much due on the one hand they naturally were led to ask, " What have you on the credit aide of the account to meet it?" In 1831 the debt wrs as he had said, 38,000,000/., and the revenue was 18,500,0001. Now the debt was 53,000,0001., and the territorial lucerne, the revenue of the East India Company in India at this moment,was 29,000,L001., so that if the debt had increased by 40 per cent., the revenue had increased by 55 per cent. Nor could it bo said that this addition to tho revenue was consequent upon increased taxation. On the contrary, the most oppressive tax—the salt tax—had been reduced since 1831 by 25 per cent.; and the next in importance, the ectroi duties, had been remitted, and the whole of thee transit duties had been abolished. So much in reference to finance—but his hon. friend had adverted to the patronage tithe directors—he (Sir J. Graham) had already expressed his opinion of how, in the main, the patronage of the direc tors had been exercised. Ilis hon. friend the chairman of the committee would correct him if he was wrong, but he thought he might boldly state that with every desire to bring evidence of malv:rsetien in the distribution of patronage before the committee no such evidence had been brought forward, while on the other hand ho had shown that in the case of the civil as in that 'Atilt) military service, the most distinguished servants of the company, if they had not been dra vu from the aristocracy, Cunha' parvis et pauper° terra Missies in imperum magnum. —Malcolm Munroe, and others—they might change the system and remove from it if they could 'those imperfections of which they complained, but his belief was that better or more able men would not be sent out under any system than those who, during the last &O years, had been employed in the civil and military service of the Indian government under the system that at present ex acted. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the system of canvass, he did not think it had been shown that it was for the advantage of the compary. And why ? Because some of the most distieguished men in Indian affairs had been excluded by it. That system had been condemned by Mr. Shepherd, the vice-chairman of the East India Company, and Mr. Willoughby. Mr. Wilber force Bird and Mr. Robertson had declared against it; and in short, the whole weight of authority was decidedly against it. After expressing approval of the mode of open ing the patronage, and drawing a distineiou between the military and scientific appointments', he said be thought the patrouage of the army might safely be confined as pro posed. But his hon. friend (Mr. Cobden) had said that the arrangements in respect to the disrosal of patronage would be fatal to the extensive employment of natives. lie had mentioned the names of Elphinstone, of Malcolm, and of Munroe, with reference to their advocacy of the employ ment of natives, and he might remark that Lord Witham Bentinck, when he went out to India, found that the natives were scarcely ever employed in the service of the govern ment, and it was his firmness that gave c fleet to the pro posal for their further employment. But did the East India Company reject his interference in this respect? Far from it. The hon. member for lioniton had read a despatch to the house in which they gave their entire approval to the system introduced by Lord W. Bentinck. And with regard to Malcolm, Munroe and Elphinstone, he believed, if it had been stated to them in 1833 that the native' of India would be employed to the extent they were employed in 1853, their most sanguine hopes would not have led them to believe that so great a change would have been quietly effected in so short a time. (Rear, hear.) lie would not weary the house by arguing in favour of the covenanted and uncovenanted service of the East India Company. Ile attached the utmost importance to the maintenance of this distinction. Ile believed they could not depart from it in the civil service, and retain it, in the militia., service. lie knew not, a priori, that he should have been disposed to draw the distinction between the covenanted and uncovenanted service if the system were now to be formed fur the first time ; but finding it drawn and maintained up to the present time, he said it would be the greatest indiscretion to break it down. lie did not believe they could open the covenanted service to the natives with regard to the civil appointments, and not open it also as to the military ap pointments; and, in the present state of India, he thought few would be found to advocate the opening of the cove nanted appointments in the military service to the nativee. (Rear, hear.) lie would not push the topic further, but left it to the natural sense of discretion of every hon. mem ber who heard him, whether his conscience would not tell him that we ought to be careful before we interfered with the present system in reference to the distinction between the covenanted and uncovenanted services. With respect to the judicial appointments, in 99 cases out of every 100 they were adjudicated upon in the first instance by native judges—that was 95 out of every 100 of the original --- and 99 - '• '• I think, a great additional security for discussion and con sideration. By rendering tho consent of two distinct authorities necessary, you, in the first place, secure dis cussion between these two. The initiative being given to ono body and a veto to the other, and the body over which the veto can be exercised having in reality no sub stantial power, except that which it derives from the force of its reasons, it is under very strong inducements to put reason on its bide if it can. If the despatches which origi nate with the Court of Directors are not well grounded in ream n, they carry no weight with the board. The Court of Director.) doe s not anti cannot exercise any effective share in the government, except in so far as it takes care to have reason on its side. Having this instrument of power, and no other, it has the strongest motise to use that instrument to the utmost ; and in doing so, it is a most effi cient cheek upon the body which has the ultimate power, because that body being sure to have all subjects brought before it, with the result of the full consideration and con centrated judgment of a body which, from its constitution, has commonly that special knowledge and information which the President of the Board of Control in general has not,the president is under great inducement not to set aside the judg ment of this comparatively well informed body unless he can give as strong or stronger reasons on the contrary side." That is the exact check that exists, the check of the rea soning of an independent body, over aservant of the Crown who in the last resort possesses all the real power. I do not believe that any secretary of state possesses more real power in a moment of emergency than does the President of the Board of Control over our Indian empire, subject only to the cheek, that if those well informed upon Indian questions offer well grounded objections to any coursche may feel inclined to take, he must urge adverse reasons, and his ultimate responsibility will be very much in creased by his rejection of the reasons tendered to him. There is the principle of double government stated in terms more forcible than any I could hope to bring to the elu cidation of the subject. But to revert to the test of judging of the tree by its fruit. I bad tho good fortune to assist the Duke of Wellington and a late right honourable friend in the government in a moment of great danger. There had been failure, almost for the first time, in the history of our Indian wars in Afighanistan. At that time Jellallabad was besieged, Candabar beleaguered. The fate of the future, the move ments of the advancing army, was held in the balance, and what was the proud result of the proceedings that then took place ? We have heard something about a question put elsewhere as to whether the son of a horse dealer might be sent out to India. At this time the officers of the Queen's army had met with a great disaster ; but there were two of the company's officers in command on the opposite frontier of Affghanistan— one General Pollock, the other General Nott. (Cheers.) Who was it retrieved the disaster of the Queen's officers ? It was General Pollock, who I believe will not be offended when I state that he was the son of a humble shopkeeper in the City of Londoa, while General Nett was the son of a publican in a remote corner of Wales. (Cheers.) How did General Nett ictrieve the honour of this country? It was left open to hint either to retreat through the Bolan Pau, or to advance to the capture of Ghuzoee. He hesi tated not a moment, his decision was to advance, and the world knows the result. (Hear, hear.) What was the decision of General Pollock in a situation of equal difficulty ? He found his army dispirited, and be was pressed by the garrison of Jellallabad, to advance to its relief. but he bad the moral courage to resist all such pressure until the confidence of his army bad been restored, and never were the expressions " cunctando restituit rem " morejustiy applied than in his case, for it was his fate afterwards to retrieve in the Bala Hisser the fortunes of the British army. (Cheers.) Let us judge of the tree by its fruits. I ha d the advantage of being the colleague of Sir R. Peel and the Duke of Wellington when the government of India was last settled ; and I am sure that if they were alive they would be the first to counsel you cot hastily to tamper with a system & Bich had produced such fruits. What then took place? After the disasters of Cabool the army retired, snd we had to encounter that which I will not say was appalling, for British hearts in India never were ap palled—but still a danger which would have daunted moat men. We had Delhi threatened ; our forces, not surprised, but for a moment finding it necessary to retreat ; two bat tles fought with results not decisive, Moodkee and Fenn shah ; but then came the triumphant victory of Sobraon, when it fell to the lot of Lord Hardinge to decide the fate of an empire— "— Super et Garamantas et Indos Proferet imperium." - - - - Here again, I say, we may . judge a system by its fruit. (Cheers.) In the civil service we have heard of Malcolm and of Elphinstone, whose achievements in peace were no less valuable than those which I have recounted to you in war. My right hon. friend the member for Edinburgh al luded to a speech of Lord Grenville respecting the civil ser vice of India. Give me leave to allude to a speech made by my right hon. friend the late Sir Robert Peel 20 years ago of wkich I cannot recollect the exact words, but of Which the following is the substance Under this sys tem you have had men administering government to millions of your subjects. You bare had some leading victorious armies and dictating terms of peace to mighty natiens. You have had others administering the revenues of vast provinces, or residing at the courts of tributary kings, and yet these men have returned to their native country with 13tle more than a docent competency, and sometimes even in absolute poverty." (Hear, hear.) That was the bead of Malcolm, and it is to this hour the boast of Moan:BMW Elphinatone ; and I can only say that if you are to judge of a tree by its fruits, your Indian system is a tree that ought not to be hastily cut down. (Cheers.) Dig up the ground ; trench it if you will, but do not pull it down, for believe me, it is sound at heart, arid on the whole is the type of good government. (Loud cheers.) It may require improve ments, and we have endeavoured to improve it. I have already shown how extensive ere all our alterations, but I will not waste your time by going into details. I should like, however, before I sit down, to make some observations reepecting what fell from my hon. friend the member for the West Riding. He said he could not call to recollection any cue in which a Governor-General had devoted himself to the improvement of India, but that all had been engaged in constant and expensive wars. Oa that point I can speak myself as a witness. It has been my fortune to know five Governors-General, and my earliest and valued friend, Lord William Bentinck, went out determined that his go vernment should be peaceful, and it pleased Pro vidence Oa he should be enabled to carry out his resolution. His whole period of office was pacific. I have known four other Governors-General. I have known Lord Auckland, I have known Lard Ellenborough, I have known Lord If ardinge, and I know Lord Dalhousie—and I can speak positively of these four Governors-General, that their intentions were most decidedly the same as those of Lsrd Bentinck. It was their firm intention on entering upon the government of India to avoid the cause of war, and peacefully to administer the affairs of that country. Upon this point I entirely concur in the testi mony of my right hon. friend the member for Stamford, and believe that one and all of these Governo:a General took every care to avoid war; and I am equally confident that it wee not the home government, not the Queen's ' ministers, nor the Court of Directors, the:, urged upon those Govemors•General the policy of departing from their peaceful intentions. It was not British policy, but Indian necessity, that induced these wars in which they were forced to engage. All of them were undertaken from a sense of coming danger—from an oiawhelming necessity acting upon the Governors-General on the spot, overriding their peaceful intentions, and iu the discharge of a duty from which they did not shrink they reversed their pacific policy by the necessities of the empire they were governing, and were driven to war. But my hon. friend, the member for the West Itidieg, quotes from the declaration of Lord Dalhousie in favour of annexation. That is the very cir cumstance to which I allude, as Indian necessity—the ne cessity of such an empire as we havo in India, which despite the self denying ordinances and the determination of the Governor-General to maintain a strictly peaceful policy, drives him to the adoption of a contrary course.. It is in the nature of au empire so large, with a frontier so extensive, and so exposed that with the strongest desire to avoid war, and net needlessly to add to territory already almost unmanageably large, the very necessities of the case will overturn all preconceived cases,a - iia 59 out of every 100 in the whole were adjudiCisted upon in the first instance by native judges. And, whereas in 1833, there was scarcely a native holding a magisterial appointment excepti one, at this moment the chief magis trate of Calcutta was a man of colour, receiving a salary of 1,5001. a year. At present the great body of the native judges were in receipt of salaries varying from 1,5001 down to 3001., while in 1833 he much doubted, if there was any native magistrate receiving a salary equal to the lowest of them sums. Upon the whole he was persuaded that the desire on the part of the government of India, as upon the ' part of the Governor. General, was sincere, gradually to in ' traduce more and more, the native+ into the public service of their country, andj he entirely concurred with his right hon. gentleman, the President of the Board of Control, that no apprehension of imaginary dange- should induce them to act with injustice to the people of India by withholding from them any share of the management of pubhc affairs for which their education and talents fitted them; but, on the other hand, he hoped that the house would not, from fanciful notions of equal Fovernmett, for which the country might :be unsuited, be induced to sanction any innovations of an untried and dan gerous character, but that they would consent to the second reading of the bill, the government having every disposi tion to meet, in considering its details, in a spirit of perfect candour, those who might differ from them upon points of detail, but he was satisfied no more dangerous course could be taken in critical circumstances like the present than to reject the measure, and rejection would necessarily be the result of the adoption of the noble lurd'e amendment. (Bear, hear.) (The:whole of the latter part of:the right bon. baronet's speech was most indistinctly heard in the gallery, owing to his turning round and addressing almost every sen tence to the hon. member for the West Hieing, whose argu ments he was answering.) Sir H. MADDOCK thought that the throwing open of the civil and scientific services to competition was the best part of the bill. Ile would also have wished to see • much larger number of military upponements taken out of the hands of the directors. The Gaverner.Oeneral ought to have enlarged power. in all administrative matters; old to the present restriction of his powers was to be attributed the neglected state of the public works and defective educa tional arrangements. He gave aqu :Med approval of the bill, and supported the eccond reading in tee hope that the objections would be remedied in committee. The house, which had been rapidly thinning' during Sir Herbert's speech, was nearly empty at its conclusion, the opposition side, from which Sir Herbert spoke, being occu pied by only five members. Mr. G. J. PUILLISIO HE next mode a long speech, in which he took a general review of Inchon grievances, as calling imperatively for redress, and for wlach lie con sidered the measure of the government wholly inadequate. Mr. Philiimore, who had made a way similar speech in the course of a former debate, did not cautribute materially to fill the house. Mr. M. MILNES followed under more favourable cir cumstances, and made a defence of the government measure in 311 respects, except that relating to competition for call:Ts in the civil service, which he did not think would prove so successful as had been anticipated.a notions, end compel the adoption of a policy the very re- Mr. BRIGHT said it would be well if the houe h.- verse of that which had been determined upon. My hon. its attention to t he qu estio n be fore it — that ques:ion bei ng friend is shocked at the notion of annexing territory, as wbetber they should take the bill of th e r i g h t hon . i being characteristic of despotic forms of government, but gentleman (Sir C. Wood) or postpone all per ms . has he not heard of annexations of territory by governments nent legislation far India fur two years—passina i f that are not despotic ? I think I have heard statements mere continuance bill which tray to be in force till lafe. emanating from a republican rovernment of the necessity That, he believed, was practically the meauiug of the of enlarging their boundaries—having already included amendment proposed by the noble lord opposite. Mesa Texas and a great portion of Mexico—so as to embrace all hear.) Even if the bill were less objectionable than it was, the states on the North American continent. These are it would, in his opinion, be desirable to postpone permaa the necessities of empire, and what is true of America is vent legislation. That was the opinion which prevailed equally true'of Asia. This brings me to the further clues. almost universally in the house before the measere of the tion, the occupation of Pegu. My hon. friend upon this government was brought forward. (Hear, hear.) n e t point relies upon certain narrow facts tending to the Maze- was the opinion of the best informed, most ably conducted, diate misunderstanding with Burnish end the government and widely circulated of the newspapers. And if he was at ;Raagoon ; but the view my hon. friend takes in this not misinformed it was the opinion of the c.binet itself a respect is narrow and unfair. It was not the answer sent week before the introduction of the measure. Then if to Commodore Lambert that had been the occasion of the there was any credit to be given to the petitions from Cal. war—that was but the last insult added to many that had mitts, Madras, or Bombay, whether corning teem the Chris. gone before; and in the eyes of an Asiatic community tame Vim, Mohammedan, er Hinder) populations, all thes e submission to insult studiously offered would beget a feel- petitions either asked for delay or they made statements ing which might have been fatal to our whole Indian Em- from which they might infer that they were in favour of pire. (Hear, hear.) Then my hon. friend says the pro- delay. (Ha:l . .) Ile (Mr. Bright) suspected that there was ceedings of Commodore Lambert show that the control of not a single member of the house in favour of the bill, un. the Indian government over their officers is imperfect; lets it might lie the right hon. gentleman the President of but if the government had disapproved of the conduct the Board of Control. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) He of Commodore Lambert he would have been instantly would not except even his own secretary (Mr. Lowe) who i n recalled and instantly reprimanded, and if any member of a most ingenious and proper manner evaded expressing any this house had thought the executive government had approbation of the measure. (Hear, and laughter.) exceeded its duly it would have been open to him to make a Even the honourable baronet the member for Iluniton, motion upon the subject, and thus to make the government who spoke fur three hours on the introduction of directly responsible to parliament. The right hon. baronet the bill, dia not say one word in its favour. then proceeded to contend that a single government would He said legislate now, and give us the double government; be no check to the evil complained of in respect to the but he did not utter a word crying that he liked the mea. making of war. The case put was that the counter-cheek sure. Every one would say that who had any connection of the East India Company was not efficient; hut supposing with the Court of Dlrectors and the system of government ghat removed, and nothing was left but the direct action of pursued. The hon. harem t knew right well, if they de. the government, there might be some greater promptitude, bayed legislation for two years longer, that all the Lord but there would be no more efficient cheek. But ie held ltalhousies and Presidents of the Boards of Control in the that they were about to introauce a system whici: would world would not persuade the ° p o a n r o lia i nt n en c t an a n n ,, d n p -r e o e w ple au e d f practically form an admirable check—that was the England to consent to this bill. (Hear, hear.) Ile knew production in parliament of an annual statement by well that at the end of two years more the system would a s the responsible minis•er of the financial state or found out, and that tho government of the right hen. ge n . our Indian empire. This would give every member of the tleman and the bon. baronet, ol house the opportunity of questioning the policy of the go- the other in Leadenhall-street, would be put an earl to. vernment ; and as this question of finance was necessarily (Hear,) For there could be no doubt that the hon. baronet intimately connected with that of British interests in India was a man of capacity, genius, energy, perseverance, and generally, and also with the question of Indian wars, a he had by his ambition partly made himself master of the better cheek, he thought, could not be propounded. (Hear, India House. (Hear.) He never saw an unfertonate hear.) He wished not to were, Lilo boo t ° with d o t o il., di ioo t nt o f thotoompetiT, that he did not too the ho o mom. but, as he had said, he desired to try the merits of the • her for Honiton astri de upon his shoulders. (Cheers.) ' ' - -' - •he would T' ---- told that the owe— he . They were that the geivernrucat had preserv e d t he people of India from external violence. That was true, but they ought oleo to protect them from internal misrule and disorder. (Hear, hear.) Ile had on a former occasion given s one facts with respect to the quarrels of the zemicelsrs in Bengal. He had since heard of another care in which two xemindars entered the field with 500 men armed with guns and pistols, and fought out their quarrels with the law of several lives on both sides. Thew things, with the ex ception of the guns and Mettle, were so common that no one took notice of them. There were deceits or gains robbers by night, and zero:nil:ire' gear:els by day. (lle ee 3 Such was the internal state of Indian society amongst the Bengalese, who were the weakest and the want docile people in the wcrld, and the longest under the benignant rule of the Bast India Company. (Hear, hear.) There were mere damit era committed new in a single year la Bengal than in five years 100 years ago. (Hear, hear.) And such was the state of things on which such high mile giums had been passed. (Hear, hear) The hon. member for Guildford did that which was very usual in matters of this kind—lie defended the government by clef:oiling the penile whom they oppressed. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman denied the competency of the naives to hold the offices which they said they could fill, and that the evil which they attributed to a faulty system of administration was owing to some inherent and constitutieaul di gravity in the people. Perjury anti habitual lying were et eilnited to the people, but he had the authority of Mr. Campbell fat seying that a great deal of the perjury and lyi attributed to the people of India was owing to our vicious judicial (Hear, hear.) lie (Mr. Beielit) had received a communication from a gentleman oho had been 20 years in India two days after the right hen. gentleman delivered his speech, in which he stated the the increase of perjury was owing to our vicious judien.l =tem, cad that out of the courts the people of India could be relic d upon for telling the truth. (Hoar, bear.) Our judicial sys. tem, therefore, was the fruitful source of this immorality. They had heard a great deal of the great trunk road and the Ganges Canal. He did not think they would ever cease to bear of the erne trunk road. (Laughter.) That road went from Calcutta to Benue', end for near 200 miles it passed over jungle. It was, in fact, a military road for the conveyance of troops, and could not be considered in any sense a commercial road. Neither tehaceo, sugar, nor sil k pawed over that road, and it was not at all constructed with a view to economical and cemsnsreial purposes. Mr. Melvill was asked if the governor of tcngal ever took jour neys to survey the provinces, and his reply was th at he did not, that no such journeys were undertaken for the last half century. Mr. a/anthem was asked the same question, and he said that there were no roads on which he could travel. clear.) The East India Company bad spent ouly a,000,000/. on public walks since the act of 1833, whilst in this country there was an expenditure for railways alone of 101. per head for every mac, weman, and child in the kingdom. (Cheers.) In Lancashire, with its two millions of inhabitants, there were 20,000,0001. expended for rail ways alone ; whilst the East Itidia Company, with its 29,000,0001. of revenue, did not spend more than 5,000,0001. in 20 years for its 100,000,000 of inhabitants. (Hear.) Colonel Sykes, wise was . very darigerous !champion of the company, said that the company expended 300,00 e/. a year on public works. But the pc plc of Manchester had ex pended more for their internal improvement than the East India Company with their vast empire. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman (Sir J. Hogg) did not appear to give them full information on this matter, for there was a return of the report of the commission appointed to investigate the state of public works in Madrae, moved for by his hon. friend (Mr. Hume), and though he understood that docu ment had been at the India House for six weeks at least, it never was produced. (Hear, hear.) In 18+10 Lord Dal housie went to Bombay, and the merchants there remon strated with him on the state of the roads and public works. The year before last the Chamber of Commerce of Man chester sent out a gentleman of high character and reaper• tability to ascertain the real facts connected with this sub ject. Unfortunately, Mr. Mackay slid not live to finish his report, hut the extracts from his papers corroborated everything that he had said on this subject. (Hear, hear.) The province of Guzerat was that from which the largest portion of the cotton came ; it was as large as England,' and had a population of five or six million inhabitants. Mr. Mackay said, ~ 1 have mode an exact measurement of all the roads in it, and they come to exactly 23; miles." adding, that these roads were made, not fur agricultu ral purposes, or for the people, but for the purposes of exercise and amusement round about the stations where the soldiers were settled. (Hear, hear.) With Guzerat might be con trasted the island of Java. Java was in the possession of the Dutch, was about the size of England, and contained a population of 10,000,000. Since 1810, there had been made in that island 950 miles of excellent roads, travellable at all seasons of the year. He would be glad to hear the differ ; once between Guzerat and Java with respect to reads ex • plained. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman the . member for Edinburgh had said all that could be said in favour of this bill. There was one point, however, to which • he directed the at.ention of the house without, perhaps, l seeing the bearing of his own remarks. He told the house that a collector was the actual governor of a large district, containing, it might be, a million inhabitants, and that his 1 power was so despotic that he could banish cultivation and r bring back the jungle where cultivation had existed. Tho • idea was not original. He (Mr. Brie ht) had observed in 1850 that the power of a collector was such that he cola either make or mar a district; and surely if there were hundreds of collectors invested with such power it was desirable that the government should be established unsound principles, and that it should be such as would subject all the civil servants in to cons:ant and watch ful supervision. (Hear, hear.) Within twenty years, it had been stated, the collector of Lundelkund reduced a prove ' roue province to the condition of a es ilderness. Fir 20 years the evil proceeded in its course, without any check from the government. In the province of Guzerat the collectors were shown to have taken from 60 to 00 per cent. or the gross produce of the soil. The hon. member for Honiton made what seemed to him (Mr. Bright) a foolish observation, when be said that if they could only have Manchester in telligence in India, great results would no doubt he obtained. He could tell him what were the sentiments of Manchester men ou that subject. If Englishmen clamoured to go to India for 20, 2.5, or 30 years :it salary ; if they were willing to give four or five thousand pounds to buy an appointment, on resigning which they would come hack on a pension of I,000:. a year, sorl. of which had been deducted from their salaries, why would not able, active, and energetic Englishmen go out and settle down for the same period to agricultur►l pdattite, the climate b.ing no greater ebjection to them than to the soldier or the civil servant. Their not doing so was a conclu,ive proof that it was, at present, impossible to invest English capital in India to advantage. Ile (Mr. Bright) said that the prospect as regarded Indian finance was gloomy; the hon. baronet the member for Honiton (Sir J. Hogg) said it was not, since with increasing debt there was increasing revenue. He .(Mr. Bright) would have thought that the test of good pees nment was increasing revenue and diminishing debt. (Hear, hear.) The most onbappy feature of Indian finance was that there was ne elasticity in it. (Hear, hear.) The land-tax could not be increased; and ai to the soap tax, which even the hon. member for Hendon would admit to he meet cruel in its operation, he saw• no prospect of its being repealed. What would be tl.e state of thiagt if the opium revenue were lost? (Hear, hear.) Now such being the fruits of the tree, he 'reseal ask the house to look for a moment nt tho constitution of the government; for he was not going to shirk the examination of the bill, though none of its friends would undertake to chew the beauty of its proportions, the excellence of its principles, or the smooth working of its machinery. They had, first of all, a representation which violated every principle of representation ; the constituents not having this slightest interest in the coentry which they wished to govern. Ho was told that there was a banker in the City of Loudon who could at any time muster 300 votes at the India House, and w hose voice at an election was absolute law. The hots. member tOr lloniton would know to whom he alluded. A highly respected member of that house had related to him a fact which tended to illustrate the srtem. He said that a relative of his having in India made him self intimately acquainted with almost everything that re lated to that country returned Lome with the view of becoming a member of the direction ; but when he found through what channel he must pass, what sup plications ho must make, by what promises he must bo pledged, he declared that there was n 0 THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, JUNE 28, 1853.