The Express. — London, England, 1847-12-15 00:00:00

. C t ranted to the mission in which Earl Mint* was arc en gr gad. He used the word " mission," for be mould that the noble earl was not at this time a mere moat vigor at Rome, travelling for his own arriessent, and la thr sass culpably neglecting his duty tor to peresmor and hi dhow In the government. Amway, thossilo, that is ears capacity or other he was adios on re par et and perent ing the dutif • cif the British sovereiga— (hear, Mar his now vas to so of the government that whisk penlhassut had a right to mik, if it was to therech to any foreign country ea officer :te:t= amok end dignity as • member of the cabinet—the Lord Privy field ? Parliament had a right to inquire what was the nature of the mission on which he had been despatched, and the functions he wes supposed to be entrusted with. Such an inquiry would be right in refer ence to the mission of • cabinet minister to any country ; but, with regard to the Italian states, and at this past' ter time, it was • matter of peculiar importance that ent should be fully informed of the views with which Mlllnint• had been sent out. He was not acquainted with all the is trimmer of the present state of affairs in Italy, especially the north of Italy ; but it was notorious that, under the auspices of the pontiff and pertly under other auspices, there was • state of disquiet and political movements going on which excited exaggerated hopes on the one hand and appreheasioas on the other, the effect of which was to place the whole of that part of the continent in • state of ferment, and the several nations con nected by political relations with it in • state of considerable anxiety. It was under the guidance of the ',regent pontiff that various schemes had been set afloat for the introduction of • more liberal system of government in the affairs of the northern states. Similar concessions they knew had been demanded by several other states from their respective 'sins, and, to a more or less extent, and with more or less reluctance, those concessions had, by more than one of thole sovereigns, been granted. What might be the object of the present movemsnt ia Italy, or the ultimate in tention of those who were directing it—if indeed they had made up their =lads as to any ultimate intention—above all what might be the meaning of that expression put forth as the watchword of tho more eager partisans of that move meat, " the independence of Italy " he (Lord Stanley) could form no conception. (Haw.) But the object of the movement in the Italian stater, so far as it bad taken place in one or more of those states, was confined, so far as he could understand, to changes of purely an internalnature—changse in the popular power in its relations with the sovereign power as then exercised. So far then as this movement had anything of an internal aspect and bearing it was, so far, re moved from such cases as this country, acting en principles of good sense and good policy, had any right to interfere in. It had been supposed that the object of the movement was partly of a commercial and partly of a political character, for the purpose of establishing • reseal federal union of all the states of the north of Italy. II the object were to estab lish • commercial uniou which would in any way affect the commercial interests of this country no doubt it would be a matter for the attention of her Majesty's government, and One that should be watched carefully by them at home ; but it was one that by no means justified the accrediting a ca binet minister to the court of Rome. So, if the object were to effect alterations in the internal political arrangements of those states, though it might be well deserving the atten tion and justify the anxious consideration of the government, the last twine they should pursue would be to give to that movementdirect encouragement by the presence of • cabinet ministerof this country. (Hear.) But it, by the " independ ence of Italy" it was meant that no foreign power should exercise any control over any province situated within the geographical limits of Italy, that was an object to which not only this country would not be justified in contributing, but an object which we were bound by the faith of treaties not only not to aid but to resist. Though Earl Mint, might not be accredited to the Pope or to any other sovereign that we knew of, yet, being the representative of the British govern ment, he had, presuming the information which had reached this country to be correct, compromised the British govern ment by his acts, by his wor ds and by his conduct ; and it was due, therefore, to parliament that they should have • distinct understanding of the functions which Lord Mints had to perform, and the character of the instructions with which he had been sent out. The reports which had appeared in those sources of informa tion, which were open to all, as to Lord Minto's proceedings, he trusted the noble marquis would be enabled to contra dict. He meant, that the minister of Great Britain, so situated and so circumstanced as Lord Minto was in Italy, had, on more than one or two occasions, appeared in answer to the calls of the people parading the treets with flags and emblems, aad joined with them in the cry in favour of the " independence of Italy ;" that on the second occasion, during a procession at Rome, the crowd assembled before the hotel in which Lord Mints resided, and, recognising him, not as a mere British traveller, but as the supposed repre sentative of this country, and as expressing the senti ments of the British government, called for him, and that, in obedience to that call, he appeared on the balcony, waved his hand to them, and joined in the " Vivas I " for the independence of Italy. He trusted that the noble marquis would be enabled to state that there was no truth in these details. In a nobleman of the Earl of Minto's rank such intermeddling with the inter nal affairs of foreign states would be highly zeprehenaible, but it became doubly so when the nobleman so acting was the avowed and accredited representative of hie government. (Hear, hear.) For a man so circumstanced, to take any part in the movement at present going on in Italy but above all to join in the vague and unintelligible cry of Italian in dependence, wu a course calling for unequivocal disapproval, and he trusted he should hear from the noble marquis that it was wholly inconsistent with the instructions of the go vernmeat. (Hear.) The question he was about to put to the noble marquis, and to which he hoped he should receive • satisfactory reply, were, in the first place, whether provision had been made for discharging the duty of Lord Privy Seal in the absence of the Earl of Mints ; and, next, on the as sumption that that noble lord was in Italy, under the orders of his government, he wished distinctly to be informed to what object his instructions pointed, and whether or no he was accredited to the supreme pontiff or to any other Italian sovereign, and, if so, what were the limits of his functions, power, and authority ? (Hear, hear.) He wished further to know whether the noble marquis, on the part of the govern ment, was prepared to state that England had no desire to interfere—be did not mean merely by force, but by moral influence, or by the encouragement of its accredited minister —in the internal affairs of Italy, or in disturbing thaw forms of government which each particular state might have thought fit to adopt. These were the questions to which he hoped the noble marquis would give a distinct answer, both as to the facts and as to the views of her Majesty's govern ment; and he also hoped for • denial of the conduct which had been attributed to Lord Minto, or, if it were admitted, he hoped for a declaration that Lord Mina in so acting had exceeded his instructions and authority. (Hear, hear.) The Marquis of LANSDOWHE thomeht that the noble lord must be sofficiently aware of the duties of Lord Privy Seal, to know that, although it was undoubtedly an office e hash rank, yet that, looking to the ordinary preetimd ribimMeris of affairs, it was not at tends4..milli soy spooks of difficulty which required the maront loaners in that house, or in the country . , of as mom exerciaing It. But the ob jection isepir lay Om aside lord in his question not merely applied to Pm individual selected, but also to the nature of the Maim Iler which he had been selected to 'repair to fo reign ossielse. Now it was the very nature of that mission which mils la darahlo that a noir kir, who possmod the trine aanillomos at W saileaguss, sad who wr pseloctly acgaidnilad rommittnemollser iwld be saiwood. He (the Ihrierlost Lismilowss) hod so lantaticia, after what tae sodit lir had stated that oralsg with respect to the condition et Italy, in rtrinding *Mr lordships of the inspormso at the saanactions which were taking place dos that country, leadirj, as they might do, net only to the greatest moment —areaperses ° S amal skamtsgessm in themselves, and eriesios to s i=y at ma Italian slur, but elks esisepasems trompash as they melgitt %rho tho reistros Vtt ai rtaben Mar with other seunteas. In dm reourr now prevailing he that country, whir sill not he ordsimmed bonus Me primed objects in such individual arts tmedol to a micr o. whirl had not elk been Ic h rhand la Ihely, hat had bra h. Ir=e ng o=tho A y Me= r i ly u r p i e t i r ill" bat der ot op•—• astrarat whisk had bosom Sand- Mame, whir was MIN Isimpo MA Irbil*, hoe it cha racter, von likely to briars hMuipmalit, was fri m that not a moreent should be Wit u f s h= the vice nod intorterenoe of England, rasp object., bat is general Leadsmen's toismistsd at am to M eows& the perronaris sad tho populers be tbo ships they were taking so kr as those steps wee, limbed to or object, namely, ' the internal improvement of each slate. (G i bes.) It was important that in sack a state of ofrilshould be represented in Italy, and that the ill = atter country shoedd be made looms be her by a perm valuable so well from Ids high parrs sad authority as his mesiry hi obtainia k kes i t asen. No lad therein - us Wars la Oa sides that the Ihrl ot lento wu not in I mariy tsr staatnito, but that he loft this courry se ts all the sovereigns of Italy war ono to wham, asoordiag to tho enemerstion of this runs; lete conk not ft les assooditroL (Hesr, hear.) He had been bruited to isormsralt Ida 11th sovereign, to offer t he mat Idandfq co whir liut to trims dr shies to capercastanet with Cho frontel hopeormintot ark stare or farther, be whim sunk a mum to oar rim r shard yr vent eloommerner arrows. to thiamine Ara appalierkes on the part rather power, said air = mord, inimilinsoe with rights whisk be =aer.d. with tko sirs lord it wigs vitally =stNo hoped the noble 1:41=1 mainland ills err that tho Bari et Mir awl the gowerrmant was ' dimply samilio at in t ort Xlllll St obeirvliti than mar, sad of roar to avert rellsior between his its of ent of the exclissmat sow per alllnp—millams whica (the Marquis of Lansdowne) daymenle4 ger as mash as the noble lord. The Earl of Mints essmisniested with the Italian avareigns , and he woe jurist it saying that thaw wyereigBl hid edien#7 IdPftMell Me met cordial oar be rm, materatimg aims be pritilmlo, at ea rtlng dm ea &tetrads a erre ris odors bang em so Warr* Y opperorty of raldmg air waCdlstha known. Wwevor waft it might hafimarlorildmtte aarti.s remit a spier, he was psemersd that dm sr sums el es Bad of Mint° in Italy had doprossed any dkpositiem to roam whisk reit have erred be that and, show all, ha preowned gni sad amersor rem bawls Ili• gown mina does pile it vial" sormiares sit shoalelMlL). the whim hod had alts Ledlll=possemes at Nam No would say Ilmadhough not nomolkod to the rent of Noms, it word hire been a gnat 'whir on the part of List MIRO, If, Wig ice Itply, and Itlernelng the way in whieb Mime was a . " 011 up with ewe possirris to which was ram , ha bad not ego gimp amil tarn nary pore to acquire ateurate information. He could state that the gonesmiat had den most inwetsat information from Lord Misre's prams» In Rome. The noble iced had guns tank». mall bad said him whether he thought it donnas» timid Me DOM government should have • representative at Preasti • Lard STANLILY—The noble marquis is mistaken; I did me ask a quids& The Mamie of LANSDOWNE—The noble lord had I introduced Um point into his speech in such a way as to avoid giving an opinion. He should not follow the noble lerd's example, but in answering should give an answer at once. (Cheers.) The opinion which he should venture to give was, that It was most desirable we should be repro. seated at Rome. He thourbt it absurd, that while this country had the means of getting the beat information through the best channels from every government almost in the world, there was yet io the very centre of Europe Wart in which it had no means of Communicating or of Bet tis* information, while he believed there WY not a court in the world In which it would be more useful to England to have means of communication considering the peculiar influence of that court in various parts of the British dominions. (Hear, bear .) At present it could not be done b 7 law, but he bad thought it right frankly to state his opi awn. (Hoar.) There was only en* question more, which the noble lord bed founded on certain statements in the newspapers, to the effect that the Earl of Minto had on some occasion expressed his sympethi l iith what the noble lord had called the vague and taunt* • We cry of Italian inde pendence. He could not give e noble lord a positive answer, because he had no authority, nor any authentic re port,,p but .it was hin his 7,...tta t t io oLev an er/ is; i x , : t aion . Lord Mint bad had expressed most have been with reform 7niseTch'indie vidual state, and not with any fanciful scheme or new national system. He could not say whether Lord Minto had or had not sympathised:- but this he was sure, that any ex pressions which the nob le lord had used had been founded on • desire for the separate improvement of each state, and above all, for a well-cemented friendly alliance between the Italian governments and people. He had only . further to add, for the noble lard's satisfaction , that the privy seal bad been placed in commission pending the absence of Lord Minto. (A laugh.) AFFAIRS OF SWITZERLAND. Lord BEAUMONT, inquired whether this country ad hered to the proposal that a conference should be held, at which a member of the Sonderbund should be present ? The Marquis of LANSDOWNE replied that Sir Stratford Canning, who was well acquainted with the whole question, bed been instructed, on his way through Switzerland, to place himself in communication with the authorities, and to gire his advice upon such points as might be submitted to him, but in no way.to act in the Corm of interference or inter vention Their lordships then adjourned, at 20 minutes past 7, till to-morrow (this day). HOUSE OF COMMONS.—TUESDAY, Dxc. 14. The SPEAMIR took the chair at four o'clock, when several members were PUBLIC WASS:ft FIRST READING.--Quarter %Mons Bill. THIRD RMADDlG.—Baihraye Bill. REPORT.—P•Mie Work" (Ireland) Bill. NOTICIM OF MOTlONLl.—Cornmacur Dun= wro Ccaamor Comarra.—lnad G. Ihnrrnon gam notlee that on the motion for Mi" raft the smillis he should more to omit the ammo of Hr. ya Wm animal], Mr. alOll,llO, BLr W. Clay, and Mr. J. a Zenbillnin Mom ol Mr. Ham* Mr. D. Brown, Mr. Hen. icy, Mr. FOAM" ale Mr. Hunts. Rox.ra Gramm IMism B. O'Bmior to 1700", to committee on this YR a decree to enable ROOMS catholic' to hold the Aloe of Lord Claudio of Ireland. CONTROVERTED ELECTION. - • ---- The SPEAKER informed the house that the sureties for prosecuting the petition against the return of a member for the borough of Carlow were unobjectionable. JOINT-STOCK COMPANIES. Mr. WYLD begged to sak the right hon. gentleman the president of the Board of Trade, if it was the intention to in troduce a bill of last station, entitled the Joint-Stock Com panies Bill, No. 2, and if it would include railway companies ? Mr. LABOUCHERE' wished the hon. member had given him notice of his question. He hoped the bill in ques tion would be again introduced, and he believed it would not include railway companies. ALLOWANCE TO PENSIONERS. Sir D. L. EVANS begged to ask the Secretary at War whether the promise made at the close alert session by the bead of the government that an allowance of 44d. der diem should be granted to commuted pensioner similarly situated with those who received this allowance in Canada, had been carried out ? MEDAL Sir D. L. EVANS also asked when tl7 distribution was to commence of the medal graciously intended by her Majesty in commemoration of the war services of the army and navy Mx. F. MATILE said that at the close of the last session the government intimated a desire to put the commuted pen sioners of 1633 in a similar position to those in Canada. The pension was not, however, to be restored, but a payment would be made from the military chest of 40. a day, and he was prepared to carry this into effect. With regard to the medal, it was not in his power to expedite its distribution. Delay had occurred in consequence of the necessity of in quiring into the claims, amounting to 19,600. An accident which had happened to Mr. Wyon had also retarded the striking of the medal. NEW WRIT. Oa the motion of Mr. TC7NELL • new writ was or dered to issue for the election of a member for the borough of Sunderland, in the room of Mr. D. Barclay, who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds. POOR-RATES (IRELAND). Col. DUNNE begged to ask the Secretary for the Home Department for a list of the 22 unions in which her Majesty's government considered assistance in aid of the poor-rates necessary, and the reasons that induced it to come to that conclusiao ; and also what was the amount of desti tution in relation to the rateable value of a district, which the government considered that district unable to support, and consequently entitled to asaistanoe Sir G. GREY said what he stated on a former occasion was, that when an appeal was made for a grant of money for general relief in Ireland, the government stated that the condition of the poor was under their consideration, and that, out of 130 unions, only 22 would require aid in addl. tion to that provided by the poor-law. He would only state generally that the unions were in the west of Ireland ,• but he did not think it would be of advantage to the public to state what they were. As to the second question, it was impossible to answer it with the mathematical precision required by him hon. friend. THE EV 3 REt3B, ,WEDNESDAY EVENING, DECEMBER 15, 1847. CHURCH PATRONAGE OF THY LORD CHANCEL- ---- Kr. C. ANSTBY begged to ask the right hon. gentleman the Secretary for Ireland whether the Lord Chancellor of Ireland loosemed any, and what, ecclesiastical patronage by virtue of that office? Sir W. SOMERVILLE was afraid be was not ins odndi. non to pronounce an opinion with authority on this subject, but he believed there was not a single fragment of eccle siastical patronage powered by the Lord Chancellor of Ire land. POOR-RATES—{IRELAND). Major BLACKAI.L begged to ask the Seeretary for Ire land what had been the teed eniennt of -rates collected in helmet dazing the MIN* of N 1847, and whe ther it ass the thirthisee of the warm& to devise means of providing metal implement kr the ebb-bodied poor in thandithrieth where the ratee math be sellested to a sail cieut amennit te relieve the whisk. dedihntee. Sir W. 80WIEVILLE said that ao Adel returns had been received sift mount of rake 00211014111 in November I last, but he bed rum to believe that the collection was large. With regard to the mooed timeline, he weld only say that it was not the intention of the greethresat to con tinue oldie 'reeks. THE ACTIONS AGAINST CAPTAIN DENMAN. __ . . Mr. 17EQIIHART asked whether the goverment dr feuded the actions in the elms of Biwa e. Denman ? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he appeared in those teatime by the instruction of the government. When he said that, he thought the hoe. gentleman would see the propriety of not putting the other pert of the question of which he had given nodal. Mr. lIRQIIHART asked, supposing the verdict wee spinet the defendant, whether the government would be prepared to meet the demand made on them ? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL maid, when the 'mast was given be should be prepared to advise the government to thew urse they Mould plume. (Hear, hear.) COPYHOLD ENFRANCHISEMENT. Mr. AOLIONBY old, that after he had put a wades the ether mein, with regard to the enframidennest it oopyhoiie, the report of the commies:loners MONS& niesiveL He= to sok if the government were in pommies de bill tomb& en that report, end if it would be brought m before the MOM I Bin G. OAST ssM the report had been received on the lea Ayr aelerepetted by a letter of the 2 8 tk, in which the simmiNassis . NNW Mat a bill was in pmperation to Derry dodo restnepatedellons into erect, but that it 'Told be some weeks behove the bill would be Crinentitteeltoiiii(Six G. Ore 7). He had sot het received it, sad he did not expect to nerve it before - - P.AILWAY BILLS. The CHANCELLOR eitis; EXCHEQUER hoped the ben would allow the ti rd wailiag of this bill to be taken ed MOO in order that It be seat up to the Houle of Lards. He showed ra t hes. member for Bodmin had 1 shwa selles ere, al= es • edosel which was under the esseidendea el re Iry tweridlles, sad would leave it la Irk kr& he hoped he Mr. WYLD mmtied Med& arse, art =a the go vernment to lad erre sesame le railway shareholder, fora OM fillaiL The bill wee dna roL • ddr4 time and per& WEST OLOUCESTERSEIII2 ELECTION. Mr. WAILLEY nee to move the esarderatiou of the pe tition M the &sten of the worm divide& tithe eounty of Glertersr in 1011 Destrber. herd he dwell Ihid re in ebterre sereithe is inquire Ml* thh matter. Nal be se riarlertiodiog Him; there was se her rn sheer the bur. The petition was April by id las higher rareetalidly. The Ihr se was the reser e dML Lee, el Wooderserpert, who had palmed the hraaseprepee of Lead Dorm There were other If well sgal we equally respect able, and the =mar la Which they - yaks of the late erotica is War Gletesestribire was sea, that if derwired le peeled the peer ale in the the harebbe they seer is pates Us hr. =maw ebbed far die Merles of vete by bid lot , while edits melestwirrhel ark • ester ae berg unasplda. hat eirtiyaZed per to= reser arid tir led eoraks erase. soft Olt tenant« he WI use to make any charges spinet the noble peel *hoes conduct waa ire parted ley the petitioners. He bad . no acquabitanor with him, and be bad only • alight seeustntance with his rela tives, who were members of that house. With reference to the noble peer he had no private fe, ling whatever ; but he thought that the charges contained in the petition were of a grave and serious character, and if the house passed over the allegations lightly, or took no notice of them, or decided that he should not have this committee of inquiry, freedom of election would be at en end, and the house would be guilty of a fraud upon the community, by keeping open its records the standing order which declared it to be en in fringement of the rights and 'units:gee of the Commons House of Parliament for any peer to interfere in the election of members to be returned thereto. And what were the allegations in the petition? It was unnecessary for him to go through the whole of them, and he would only call the attention of the h:,use to the more serious of them, j3rneore he di,! to, however, he must observe that he wee deeply sorry that family strifes and contentions should have arisen between the tickle lord and a near relation, who wee a mem ber of this house • and he was net one who would seek to widen the brea ch which existed between them. He thought, ' however, that the correspondence which had gone forth to the public; and what had already transpired was not of a very creditable character to one of the parties concerned. Still this proved no reason why this house should abandon its duty when a great constitutional question was raised. But to the alternations contained in the petition. It is stated that the noble peer in question had interfered, and by bribery, intimidation, and corruption endeavoured to prevent the electors from disc harging the duty they were called upon to exercise in the election of members to serve in that house. Such being the allegations, how could this house consistently discharge its duty if it did not originate a most searching, scrupulous, and rigid inquiry 1 The petitioners statril : " That, shortly before, end also during the last general elec tion, William Fitshantings Berkeley, commonly called Earl Fitsharilinge, a peer of the realm, and lord-lieutenant of the 1 county, not only personally, but by aixeedited agents and by large sums of money, and by intimidation and coercion, did, in o n defiance of the law, in violation of his duty, and in utter diarsgsrd of the usual sessional order of your honour able house in that behalf, directly, repeatedly, and systema. tinily interfere with the rights and privileges of the electors of the western division of the county of Gloucester." The next allegation was " That, a short time previously to the said election, the said Earl Frithardinge, in anticipation of the said election, and in order to prejudice and interfere with the sower of one of the intended candidates, George Charles Grantley Fitzhardinge Berkeley, commonly called the Hon. Grumbly Berkeley, did coerce his tenantry to resign their services in the troop of yeomanry commanded by their captain, the lion. Grantley Berkeley." The petitioners further set forth in their petition now before the house " That about the same time, and for similar purposes, the said Earl Fitzhardinge caused to be offered to the hon. Grantley Berkeley a large pecuniary consideration, as an inducement or bribe to him to retire from his then representation of the said western division, and not to become • candidate for such division at a future time."—ln another allegation it was stated—" That after the Hon. Grentley Berkeley had become a candidate, and shortly previous to the polling, a large sum of money, ex ceeding in value any previous offer, wee offered, or caused to be offered to him, by the said Earl Fitabardinge, to induce his retirement from the approaching contest, and his with drawal of certain charges against the said Earl Fitohardinge, and otherwise in relation to the said election, so as to enable one Grenville Berkeley to become a representative of the said electors in the place of the Hon. Grande" , Berkeley, but which renewed offer he again rejected." The petition further alleged: " That Earl Fitohardinge, having failed in his endeavours to deprive the electors of the services of the Hon. Grantley Berkeley, did, by , offers of pecuniary assist ance and personal influence, instigate and induce the said Grenville Berkeley to become a candidate at the last election in opposition to the Hon. Grantley Berkeley, and did, from time to tint*, before, and during, and after the election, promise and guarantee, and also pa and advance, sums of money to defray the expenses in curred on behalf of the said Grenville Berkeley as ouch candidate, and did also use undue influence with numerous of the electors to obtain their votes at the election on behalf of the said Grenville Berkeley." Another allega tion was That Earl Fitzhardinge, during and about the time of the election, paid or caused to be paid large sums of money for the purc hase of votes, and for treating voters ;" and he (Mr. Wakley) had received • communication from lone of the electors, stating that in one place during the else tion, by order of the noble peer, wine and brandy and water had been carried to the voters in bucket,, and such scenes of debauchery and immorality had been exhibited as never before had been witnessed at any election in this country. Now, when allegations such as these were made he (Mr. !Ashley) asked if the house would consider it disch arged its duty if it allowed them to remain uninvestigeted, and permitted the standing order to remain a nullity. Should it do so, the house would show itself to be wholly indifferent to the free dom of election, and would encourage the wealthy in all parts of the country to invade the rights of the poor elector. The petition was signed by 160 independent electors, who feared their rights were jeopardised by what bad transpired at the Last election; it was entitled to the calm and serious conside ration of this assembly, and as the noble lord whose conduct was implicated offs ed no objection to an inquiry, and he appeared to be anxious to rescue hie character from the 'nig : ma cast upon it by these allegations, he bored the house would not refuse • fall and complete inquiry. He might be asked this question, namely, if the noble peer was found frailty, what would the house do with him ? (" Hear," and laughter.) He (Mr. Wakley) candidly confessed he could not answer the question. In former times cases of a similar nature bad been brought before the house, but he could not discover that any severe infliction had ever visited those who had violated the standing order. He did net know what punishment the house had the power to inflict, but he did know that the appeal to public opinion would not be made in vain. He therefore could not believe that if this inquiry was instituted it would be unavailing. He therefore moved that a select committee be appointed to inquire into the alle gations contained in the petition of certain electors, com plaining of the interference of Earl Fitzhardinge, a peer of the realm, and lord lieutenant of the county of Gloucester, at the election of members to serve for the west division of at the last general eleatitm. Mr. DIIINTZ seconded the motion. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL rose, after a pause ' and said before he stated the result of the inquiries be had made on the subject of the petition, he had been anxious to have heard the opinions of hon. members u to what ought to be done in the cue. Re did not intend to enter into the alle gations of the petition, for he did not feel it his duty to do more than to point out to the house the various proceedings which had taken place in analogous cases. As he understood the present motion, it was based upon what was alleged to be a breach of the privileges of the house as receguised by the standing order pared at the commencement of every session of parliament. It was not for him now to inquire into the expediency or propriety of continuing an order of that de seriptien—it would suffice for him to state what he found to have been the practice, and the difficulties that have occurred in former instances. The first out he had found occurred in 1780, when a similar application to the present was made 'against the Duke of Chandos, reported in the 37th volume of the Journals, p. 607. In that cue the petitioners cora- Seined against him for that he, being a peer and lord lieutenant of the county of Southampton, bad signed letter with his own hand, and thus concerned himself in the election, and thereby committed a breach of the privileges of this house. On this a motion was made not to refer the pe tition to a select committee, but to refer it to a committee of privileges. This motion had been carried without diasent, and the ease was referred to the committee of privileges to report their opinions thereon to the house. The committee I took the matter into could/ration, and presented a report to be found in the same volume of the Journals, p. 667, in which they stated that the charge had been substantiated against the noble duke, and that he had been guilty of • breach of privilege, and of an infringement of the liberties of ' the House of Commons. And what had the house done on that report. Why, instead of any step being taken upon it, a notion w male that its further consideration should be paelpesed Ist four months, and that motion wee carried in the elliknetative.___ WgillT That was not in a reformed parliament. The A ILNETAIENBRAL That was so, but he would thew more substantial reasons why the m atter ism not carded farther. The next cue he found wee that of a osoaplaint preferred in the following year whet the Deka et Dellon, for Interfering in the sl eet • of missabars to serve for the county of Hampshire. This sempleint had been rebind to the meamittee of privileges, bat the com mittee, tided by the heater proceeding, took no step at all. Ia the ems way a melba bed Ism made respecting the molest et ewe of the biases, beg theasseloa was withdrawn, and there had not bees sal farther preseedlogi. A more n ewt ems wield Wade* reeolleedea ef fray hon. measheee It was the cam of the mataplaint made la 1841 &Relive leas Cawdor for intseihrleg with the Carmarthen election. /a that ease Kr. Werlieseen, they member for Bridport, pre sented • pieties, and produced the original letters addresed by the dewed of the noble earl to his wards to rowel Hem to vete ke Oa Trevor. Now ne member had ever shown ildm. sell mom metal of the rights and liberties of darer than hod Yr. Werberlea. No man was lam behead them be wee to beak hears he could bite, and he made the charges emieleed in the petition he ssaeTidsd by making no melee whatever, observing that the lbeatasereeda rows elide deeriptles wee pabtie *ldea. Os that (Sir cc melee the sight e. bereset dr kr Rigs& Jaime Cleakesa) m le il the noble led at the 'amber heed st the go vernment tusk pert be the diroodes t bet se motion was made, sail the aster theppol. He Oho Alkorney-Gene. ea] ) had lessd eerie& eleakeir Nom Os the 4th al April, 184.5, • prides bed bees }resealed from Weedeleek, onn pleining dam isissibesass al the Doke of Ifesdbweegb at the deaden don, bet se arks woe modes and there pas the mew we dorpeL la lispessaler s IUI, • Wei ler prides bed been petards& mitre the Ihreple of Salle , buy, kit kikettike at the Readied eleslisa ; bet se medal woe aril sod as further proseedimge Odom The some ki had been the are with the pales fres Lameakia, in Aprq 1848. plainkeeem themedes joili t ef ka the late Duke of miliedend • MA - , is Yr @garnet the Duke dideelbseeegh, in 1888, sad in theepeesseted spirt the ! in e i l Herikal, for iseledialeg et the deaden fi r the of Orbit In all them emus as feeefer in had Odom The mars why suit hod =toe oar wee this, that even if the amps yew adabliliel, there we me remedy in the halide of the been. Mt. WALLEY—It the premed Me the vemely would be to &Wm the noble earl c harge d trees bb case if lord- Usutenamt. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL--No beams it was gay act alleged in the petition thahad smanised by virtue of his ementimion tae lord-Hissesand. If be bad been guilty of bribery, he might be prissasisd solo* la Os scrum of law, if the allegations rentsised its do politico were capable of proof. It was not pretended that in hi capeaty of lord-lieutenant he so acted; all that was alleged in the petition was, that in his ohmmeter ot loadlord he had prrssaled on his own tenants not to sun I. lb. lnv of y aomanry assmianded by his brother. For anything else be was I as any other Individual, to be premeded against In • tioUrt of law ; for the house had no right to set against • peer qua peer than against any other iadividual. If he had abused the office of lord lieutenant, that might be aground for the hostas to make • representation to her Majesty to deprive him of the office he had so abused, but that was not the present charge. With this explanation he left the mater in the hands of the house. Captain BIIRKELEY claimed the indulgence of the house, while, in the emphatic words of Earl Vitzhardiuge, he showed how this petition had been trumped up. His hon. relative distinctly said that it was the foulest falsehood that ever disgraced any set of men, to assert that he, as lord-lieutenant, had interfered to cause his tanaritry to retire from the yeomanry. He firmly believed what his noble relative dated, and hsonly hoped the house would deal with this as with en v other Me. For his own part, it would ' eee the , d:- be too painful for h ( m to remit; t• -acumen, and having said thus much he should quit the home. The hon. and gallant member then withdrew. Mr. G. BERKELEY deeply regretted the painful posi tion in which he was placed on the present occasion ; but he was anxious to say • few words as regarded the petition, th e respectability of the names attached to it, and the allega tions which it contained. With regard to the assertion just made, and which touched him more nearly because he was the captain of the troop of yeomanry alluded to, he could entire the house that he had in his possession (and if the house granted the committee he would produce them) the letters ' of the tenantry who had served in his troop, telling him they would not have left if they had not been coerced to do so by their landlords. When he returned the muster-roll of his troop, he had reported in the printed column for remarks the fact that many of his best men had simultaneously de serted the troop ; and, lest it should be thought that this had arisen from any errors onhis'part, he had distinctly reported that they had so left in consequence of the coercion exercised by the Lord-Lieutenant. He had, however, not been per mitted to send the muster-roll to the War-office with these words in it, and therefore, in obedience to his commanding officer, and after consulting with an hon. and gallant friend as to what he should do, he had erased the words, and made no remark in the muster-roll. He should say no more, nor should he attempt to forestall the decision of the house ; indeed, lost for the remarks of his hon. and gallant relation, who had quitted the house, he should not have said a word upon the subject. Sir R. H. INOLIS proposed to direct the attention of the house to the petition without referenee to the party against whom it was directed, and to ask the house to consider whe ther it was necessary to adopt the course the house had pro posed. The hon. and learned Attorney-General had found that there were means in the courts of law by which redress could be sought if any wrong had been committed, and there were other tribunals which ought to be exhausted be fore the house was called upon to enter upon the discussion of the question now before it. It might be a doubtful ques tion how fur it was right, session alter session, to face the standing order which made the house subject, he would not say to mockery and insult, but, at any rate, to ridicule, but ' still it was matter for calm consideration, whether a men tion of the house was sufficient to disfranchise any of their fellow subjects whether • peer or a commoner. Every peer had • right to interfere, as a freeholder of 40s. value, and there were many peers now living who had exercised the privilege of voting at the election of members to terrain par liament, and the Duke of Norfolk,within the last 40 yearshad voted in at least half a dozen boroughs in which be bad intesest, and knowing all thin, he thought the house would exercise a wise discretion, in no longer having recourse to that " brutom fainters" which was hurled every year in the shape of a standing order at the peers of the realm. Oe the whole, he thought that the hon. member for Finsbury had , laid no adequate grounds fur the motion, and, under such circumstances, it premed to • division, he should vote against it. Mr. HUME said, that several years ago he had endea voured to persuade the house not to persist in the maintenance of the standing order in question. There, however, it re mained, and hence the awkward position of the house on the present occasion. He dissented from the hon. bait., the member for Oxford, and thought that ample grounds had bees laid for the house to vindicate its own resolution. He thought the house ought not to stultify itself by refusing the inquiry sought, and on these grounds he should support the motion. . . . . Lord D. STUART thought that the motion having been made, it was due to the electors of the country at large to grant the inquiry. It was the duty of the house to prto tect the electoral body from undue influence being exercised by any individual, whatever his rank and station. This measure would have a tendency towards that end, as mark , in g the reprobation of the house for these improper practices. Lord J. RUSSELL said he did not agree with the hon. member for Montrose, that, because a certain resolution had been passed by that house against the interference of peers in elections, they were therefore bound, on every occasion of complaint, immediately to institute an inquiry, or else to rescind their resolution. On the contrary, he conceived it was completely in the discretion of the house, having such a resolution, to apply it or not to the cases broug ttaljedie fore it. (Hear.) There might be a case in which the house would unanimously agree to an inquiry; there might be cases in which it would not think inquiry advisable ; and the hon. member for Montrose had not held out a very tempting prospect when he said, that if a committee was appointed, and the charges were found to be proved, then the prudence sf the house might come in, and no further proceedings might be taken. He did not think that an advisable course to pursue. I The discretion to be exercised depended very much on the allegations in the petition. One allegation, to which an hon. member of the house (Mr. G. Berkeley) had lent the'' weight of his authority, was, that Lord Fitzturdinge bad in duced certain members of a troop of yeomanry to withdraw from that troop, because the bon. gentleman was the c.ptaia of that troop; and it was alleged he had done that in virtue of his power as lord-lieutenant. But this was not, on the one hand, an exercise of his power as lord-lieutenant; nor, on the other, was it an interference with the election. (Hear.) It might be that it was the exercise of a very wanton and op pressive power as against the hon. geatleman the captain of the troop ; it might have shown a feeling not at all honour able ; bat it was not a matter into which the house could inquire, with a view to take any proceedings, The next allegation was that the noble lord had endeavoured to in duce a candidate, who wished to be a member of that house, to withdraw hie pretensions. Even if it were proved that he had paid money for that purpose, he (Lord J. Russell) did not know whether it would bear the character of a corrupt proceeding, so as to bring it within the province of any law relating to elections. A further allegation and a grave one was, that Lord Fitehardinge "had caused to be paid a large sum of money for purchasing and treating voters, and by an extensively organised system of personal violence, gross immorality, bribery, corruption, and intimidation, had endeavoured to influence the election for West Gloucestenhire." But that was an allegation which might have been inquired into in the mode which the house had appointed by statute, bad the petition been presented within fourteen days after the meeting of parliament. Mr. WAX LEN was understood to dissent. Lord J. RUSSELL laid if this allegation was inquired into, it ought to be before a oommittee grated under the act passed two years ago, rather than by a committee of the house. As it was, the matter erenY name beam the committee which had been regularly appealed, by the act of parliament, for inquiring lute the return. It did not appear therefore, in this particular case, that there was any reason for appointing a committee for the purpose. His right hon. friend behind him (Sir G. Grey) had jut in formed him that the petition against the return was not on the ground of bribery, but on the ground of want of qualifi cation. (Rear, hear.) If so, that would make a difference as to the means of inquiry before that committee. (Hear, hear.) Certainly, if there were no means for inquiring into this matter before an election committee, that might be s ground—whether Lord Fitshardiage was • peer of parlia ment or not—for appointing a select committee. (Rear.) He confessed he was not sufficiently aware whether there were the means for so inquiring or not ; and therefore he should raped his opinion on the question. Mr. H. DRUMMOND said he believed the liberties of the country were most endangered by the assumption of " powers on the part of that house. HEY.Binary powers said he hardly understood what course the government meant to pursue, the noble lord having Mated, after receiving the correction of his right honourable friend, that he should suspend his opinion on the matter. (Hear, bear.) The hon. and learned Attorney-General bad objected to the inquiry, on the ground that it would be utterly fruitless—that the house could not reach the noble peer, even if be were pronounced guilty ; and he had industr iously collected precedents in proof of this. Bat even if no result could be arrived at such an inquiry ought not to be stifled. (Hear.) It would be perfectly idle in the house, having paned this standing order only a fortnight ago, as soon as • petition of this kind was remitted, the allegations of which were very strong, to admit that this order was utterly powerless, and a waste of words. This petition coacerned not only a peer, but a peer who held the responsible office of lord-lieutenant of the county. (Hear.) The Attorney General said he had not acted as lord.lientenant in coercing the yeomanry, but only being lord. lieutenant —ahem, hear); consequently the standing order could not be enforced against him. But moat certainly if the standing order had been violated, it might to be enforced in this MIMI. There was one ease decidedly in point. In 1701, the Bishop of Worcester, who was a lm oner to the Queens in terfered in the election for Worocetershire, not as the Queen's almoner, bet being the Queen's almoner. (Hear.) A petition was presented, on which the house re ported, and addressed her Majesty for his dismimal, which was granted, her Majesty declaring that she would put tome one else in his office. (Hear.) Without entering into the merits of the petition, be must contend that it would be trifling with the standing orders not to inquire into this cue. It use ow it might be left to the ordinary course of law, by wYi lists of bribery might be prosecuted. This showed that Yet boon bad • power of punishing the noble If b e gu n galy. by directing the Attorney-General to press a, beill dies in many former oases. (Hear, boo Emig th e petitioners be able to prove what they Mork It yogi be the exalted and important duty of the home, • unseat of the high station of the individual, to =the it had taken against humble individuals WIT,MI it gam (Hear.) The house wag clearly not so gsni.mtmtto b t. ::?: ..tk.asT .: iz gggiT intup.z2 ike rseisaimbdwydainir hsraed mdd tkd:erpd A h tr i t ! e :be Y ejtird nio trFt t e tt : ithahu a e bee t rai b.ht a bpa l e l r ; tict a i h e iob. r i r td o re ::hpnt :::toji og d : : :tiud 'n . y d: I whis eleelega ladel :My ssem at ais lat eet be d isii:waniu: l"l"l- & Vict.. f" n i p h lO ewe ica l ms. o2 a w tri an thisumaisue bnr iro was ; ispioidy mobbed kr and to ddi elbooal rolberod all pillar posied after the pada kr ptoarselai dodos a blia r al e 4Zl gamst osamitte• Idle WO "PPM Ira sea petition. The we belbro the howr was thus expressly provided for. Let the peti tioners allege themselves elector*, and enter into recog nisance', and then their petition might be entertained. He had only just looked into the came ; end if there was any doubt he thought it would be better to adjoarn the question for a day er two. The petition, in reciting the order of the house, =hared to the noble lord acting as lord-lieutenant ; but there mold be no doubt this order referred to acts done by noble lords by virtue of their altos as lords-lieutenant. He would move that the debate be new adjourned. (Hear.) Sir R. PEEL said it was the practice of the house, in such eases, to institute immediate inquiry ; but this ought not to be done without consideration. A tribunal for examining these charges had been 4:prosily provided, recognisances being required from the complainants ; end if these pre liminaries were dispensed with, it would go far to bresic down the existing provision, Such was the importance of the subject Chet 111-re would be a great tenden c y to present similar petitions if it could be dons without recognisances. The hones wotiid act most wisely to take 24 hours, at all events, to consider what ought to be done. He, therefore, most heartily seconded the proposition of the right hon. gentleman. Mr. WAKLEY expressed his readiness to consent to • short adjournment. The debate wee accordingly adjourned till Friday. THE ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION. Mr. HOESMAN said he need offer no apology for bringing under the notice of the house the proceedings of the Racialism. tical Commission, at a moment when both clergy and laityweri roused to great activity, and when el eyes were directed to the proceedings of the board by whom the ecclesiastical revenues were administered. The board was invested with very high authority, its powers were most extensive, and it would Ise sure to command the sympathy of the house in its proceed. lags. Every generous mind must give them credit for di► charging their duties with scrupulous fidelity. Neverthe less, he brought forward this motion, not only without re luctance, but without fear. The whole case lay in a very small compass, and, in order to make it clear to w = he had embodied it in the resolutions. Thee commissioners bad to carry into effect the provisions of the act of 1836 ; they were to carry certain reductions in the episcopal incomes into effect upon the avoidance of the sees. Last year an important provision of the act of 1836 was repealed, and the ecclesiastical commissioners stated, in the other house, that they thought the act of 1836 went too far. He thought the proviso that the changes enacted in 1836 were only to come into opera tion on the avoidance of the sees was very objectionable; for how would those suggestions come before the public? The Archbishop of Canterbury raid that he thought the revenues of his see much too large, and they ought to be reduced to 15,0001. a year; and the Bishop of London thought 10,0001. a year enough for his see ; but they both persisted in retaining their present revenues during their lives—they would not allow their incomes to be diminished, although they admitted that they were too great, and ought to be curtailed. When the ecclesiastical commissioners pro. ceeded to the discharge of their duties they were guided by a return of the episcopal incomes for three years, ending in 1831, and by the probable incomes in future years made by the several bishops. Some of these returns were so extra ordinary, that It looked like a desire to keep the public in the dark on the subject. The Archbishop of Canterbury returned his income at 22,2161. gross, and 19,1821. net; but Dr. Lushington the year before in 1830, said that the average income of the arehiepiswinduee was 32,0001. Taking, however, the average of three years, ending with 1831,1 t seemed, according to the archbishop's return, to have fallen to 22,0001. ; but the right rev. prelate said his future income would be diminished to 17,0601., and the commissioners so took it. When he (Mr. Horsman) looked, however, to the next return to the ecclesiastical commissioners, showing the average of seven years, ending with 1843, the net income of the Archbishop of Canterbury had risen to 21,0001., and the gross income to 28,0001. Next came the return of the Arch bishop of York, who made his tunes to be 13,0001. gross and 12,0001. nit, and added that a decrease ofatleest 201. per cent. must be expected. Accordingly his future income was set dawn at 10,6001. ; but the return made by himself in 1843 showed that his income had risen to 14,5501., an increase of 401. per cent. over the calcula tion which he had made. He now came to the case of the Bishop of London, who returned his income at 13,9001., and stated the there must be • decrease, in accord ance with which his future income was estimated at 12,2041. It had risen, however, by the return of 1843, to 14,5521. The right rev, prelate said in 1831 that the whole prospect of his see was one of diminution. Now many hen. members must be aware of the Bishop of London's Paddington estate, flanked by the Edgeware.road on the one side and the Ux bridge-road on the other, upon which an immense number of buildings had risen up. Was it possible to believe that in the year 1831, when a return was deliberately made that all the prospects of the see of London were decrease of income, an idea of all these buildings rising up did not flit acres' the mind of the right rev. prelate ? (Meer, hear.) Five years before there had been an act Of parliament obtained for the express purpose of promoting them. (Hear, bear.) The report of the ecclesiastical oommissioners on the 17th of March, 1846, after they had been erected reiterated the statement that a diminution was to be ex pected, although a great many of the houses in Hyde-park terrace and the neighbourhood were inhabited at the time, and ethers were in the course of being built. (Hear, hoar.) Terraces were springing up in every direction, and a mine of wealth was thus secured to the Bishop of London which he was almost afraid to calculate ; it had, however, been estimated that it must eventually amount to 100,0001. • year. (Hear, hear.) Atter all the increase which one would natu rally suppose roue have taken place in his income, it was singular enough that in the next return made by the right rev. prelate the see appeared to be none the richer. (" Hear," and laughter.) On thecontrary, in the year 184,3, after all those 'splendid buildings had been erected, the return made by the Bishop of London was setually less than it was in 1831. At that period he made his net in001:124 to be 13,9001., but in 1843 it was reduced to 12,4001., notwith standing buildings covering 400 acres of ground had been erected, and although the right rev. prelate had signed up. wards of 2,000 leases. (Hear, hear.) Now, he should like to have some explanation of this. (Hear, hear.) They could not possibly doubt the correctness of as episcopal return (a laugh) but what must they think of episcopal management . (Hear, hear.) The Bishop of Durham returned his gross income at 21,0001. and the net income at 19,0001. His future income he put down at 17,890!. Instead of this, however, the net income rose to 22,0001. and the gross income to 26,0001. The Bishop of St. Assph estimated his income at 6,3001., and said a gradual decline was to be expected; it was accordingly written down by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners at 5,2001., but it had risen to 6,6481. The Bishop of Bangor's net income was re turned in 1831 at 4,4641. ; and he having also said there must be great reductions, it was put down at 3,2401., but went up to 6,6431. by the year 1843. The hon. gentleman gave eimi lar details with reference to the following sees, stating in every case that the bishops had calculated on a decrease : Chester, estimated in 1831 at 4,2291. net, put down at 3,8001., and increased to 5,2001. in 1843 ; Hereford, put down by the ecclesiastical commiaioners in 1831 at 2,5101., but risen to 3,1941.1 Lincoln, estimated at 3,8001., but increased to 5,2231.; Norwich, income returned in 1831 at 5,3001., put down at 4,7001., and risen in 1843 t 06,7281. ; Oxford, returned in 1831 at 2,6481. ; future income estimated at 16281. ; in come in 1843, 2,4491.; Salisbury in 1831 returned at 4,0081 gross, future income estimated at 5,0001.; returned in 1843 at 7,2001. ' • Worcester, in 1831, 6,6091. net ,• future income estimated at 6,6001. ; returned is 1843 at 7,1221. net, and 8,1661. gross. The Bishop of Llaadaff returned the income of his see in 1831 as 9241., and he was the only prelate who said there would probably be an increase in the future in come ; but, like all the red, he was mistaken, for it turned out that by the year 1843, it had decreased to 9151. (Laugh ter.) Nevertheless, it was upon these statements that the commissioners proceeded to make their future calculations. (Cheers.) How it happened that the returns had been so erroneous, it was not for him to may—he would leave it to the house to form its own opinion on the matter. The weandwicesen had to arrange the payment to be mad* tame data sees and to the poor sees, and it was simply l tin of EIPSIS OS these that they had taken too little from meth& &adieus has mach to the peer ones. The agar's =taken Crest he report of the commissioners themselves. immure of the Archbishop of Canterbury was 28,0001,yew: the payments to be made were 9,0001., which reduced his income to 19,0001. a year. The income which he would receive under the mot ef podium! was 15,0001., so that if • vacancy occurred the sera welihidlsp ' would receive 4,0001 more than he oast& The met Weans of the Archbishop of York was fixed by net of parliament at 10,0001. • year, but, after the payments were dedneted, he would have en income of 12,100/. The intended income of the Blimp of Durham was 8,0001. a year, but the future orDurham, if a vacancy was to occur, would mein' I uosequently the present bishop was recension , V , 3men then he ought under the act of parliament. Ike iron lithe Bishop of Bath and Walls was 7,2541., the meta OW, the intended income 5,0001., consequently the seeplis in this mown 1,6641 In the case of • vaceacyin the we ef Salisbury the sus bishop would receive 6931. wee thus be would be entitled to alasr the act of parliament. nem we proeyeetinpayesoth Now, with respect to to , Ind payments width had oreatened, the Bishotof CI& ' *lsar had MITL m 7 e sad above the rum fixed set of nt ; or, Whig the payments of the conmemioners, rhad : surplus hum, of 1,017!. more than was fixed by the set The Bishop of Hereford had a considerable sur. renieT d he Bishop of Orford meshed altogether +5,81191.: the Income was 6,0001. • eimesquently he received ML era he ought undo; he eat of parliament The illesp of Lincoln was la neelpt of a wept= d 2231. With nape to the see of Etahmilar, he winintioal commie. talirthemselves laid it Akan Ra ale that the rear of li:itop of that see should net he brewed till the ant young ; and accordingly, r Ye soLogret, 1846, they Med. tholaymeate at 3,7001 aza t elhish wore to cannon at the ant vacancy. But air near., had ouserd t be hod that he had noshed 3,7001. bra tks anonie. =The lurk dam elabothiase WU this. that Welty. aL r m i i t s flo Ilk NS lele les than ought to haw bosti tote prerkloss et the sr, by * 20,0001., aid. , he poorer sear are hol=ata than ought When bees per by 8,0001. /Le that the snor ingwe dieregany newer the pees sad set roselpte was to !Moly sablaillthia. II rrividad be we ler than es 1,. • yew. TM raise egad not pro. Q iji••• mflag payments, because they were extremely nallie kis yen te year. For iannee, in the see of Dar kwe the dffleness was no lam than 14,0001. in 1837; Is rlt was 110.4100 L • in 1841 it was 16,0001. With to oss of 80. Asapii, the difference in 1837 was I, T M I in 1843 it was 2,5001. la the see of Lincoln the diffusers Is 1837 was 4001. ; L lB3B 7001. With meet to the re at Norwich the difibrenea In 1837 was 8001.; la 1843 it was 1,2001. The grow Wawa if the me of Raster was 1,0921. Last year the net hums was returned at MI., or WO per ant. Wow the grew Wins. The Mbar 's net neon trees Ilia dieresis was eat, Ka • your. It *NM be rimy rein tory if the hoses haw kith the Millis**ll landekilme what caused this dithousio bareasa the and cast b orn. What dedasthre eadd dry whisk weld r reduce an income more than 300 per cent. Supposi ng t h a t a bishop war ; that he was engaged in combat law-smite ; that he was eminent in literature, w es a writer of pamphlets or long letters to the Th eo. were they to consider ezpenaes incurred in this way es proper and legitimate ? (Hear, hear.) Another subject el Importance related to the variations of the commissioners f e theie management of ecclesiastical revenues. At present we prelate could know what his income was to b e . Now, son thing could be more inconvenient, vexatious, or unsettli n a prelate than not to know whether his income was t o h e 6,0001. a year or 2,0001. Let them look to the efi)et o f t ei„ system of management on the dioceses themse,ve s , v = ., as Income of the see of Durham w cakulated at 19,0001 • The bishop was allowed a choice by the cornmeal ... e 41,72 ther he would make over to them 11,0001., lad , fi e fe: what the see made over 8,0001., or wheth er they make him an annual payment of 8,0001„ and keep the re. Inlander. The bishop he underet,ood preened mks gambling transaction, and it appeared that he made a very good thing of it, for the income he received wak, accord. to the returns, 12,0001. a year. The plea which the co mas. 'Loners alleged was, that, by allowing the bishops to ma k s the payments to them, they would have a greater Ink rest a the improvement of the property. In the first place, MI seemed to be a false principle ; for, if a man's tiros was to be taken up in trying to squeeze a few thousands more out of the proputy, how eau* time could he devote to his spiritual duties ? How dig it operate in the case of the see of Durham ? The propene there was a mineral property, and what they did was to sti. mutate the bishop to work it out to the utmost, ard, scow. dingly, he had received 60,0001. over the sum fixed b the act or parliament, mince his consecration to that so. (R aw. hear.) That sum was lost entirely to the church—that low was constantly increasing, ,or it was generally believed th at at the present moment the income of the Bishop of Durham was greater than that of any former bishop. He would now go to a case of a different character, in which toe sale aiastical commissioner' took on themselves to postpone the operation of the act of parliament—he alluded to the cue el the see of Saliabury. The act was paned on the 13th of Augast, 1838, but it had a retrospective effect from the 4th of Marsh in thwaune year, in order that the see of Durham, the bishop of which diocese was gasetted on that day, might be brought under its operation. The Bishop of Salis bury was ginned on the 14th of March, 1817, more than one year after the Bishop of Durham, and hie future income was expressly fixed at 5,0001. a year. Yet that provision had been disregarded, and the average income was considerably over what was fined by the act. (Hear, hear.) That was a case on which it war net neoemary to make any comment. He wished that right rev. prelate every enjoyment of his large income, and he am cure he would make a right use of it ; but he believed th a t many of the poor curates of that diocese could not think d it unaccompanied by those reflections to which it must natu rally give rise. (Hear, hear.) Compare this enorruou copal superabundance with the condition of the poor work ing clergy. The laity always generously responded to the appeals made to them. The Bishop of Ripon lao ly declared that for the last ten yearn more than 25,0001. a 'culled been nobly subscribed by theta. Churches had been built in every directioa by their contributions, which the minim tical commissioners engaged to endow ; but those engage ments had been in many instances broken. (Hear, hear.) He heard an announcement made by the ecclesiastical com missioners in 1844, which was now in operation, to the effete that they were unable to give any further &instance became the commission was bankrupt. Yet at that moment they were dividing no less than 26,000/. ; he believed it was nearer to 40,0001., out of the ecclesiastical revenues which had hem placed under their administration. And these things took place at a time when 2,000 clergymen of the Church of Eng land had incomes under 1001. a year, and he knew some who had only 501. and 201., and some as low as 61 and Of. (Hear, hear.) Such was the state of a portion of the Church when this enormous extravagance was taking place. He be lieved that a portion of the clergy were material/ privations such as had never been heard of in a rich and civilised com munity. He could give statements of which they had no conception of the poverty and wants of these men. These were the men whom they ought to multi. pry and strengthen—who mewed as link' between the poor man and the church. (Hear, hear.) They should recollect that every shilling given to the hierarchy was taken away trom the pcior clergy, and that it was their duty, for the sake of these men, and for the sake of the church, to see that the revenues of the church were justly administered. The hon, gentleman concluded by moving : 1. That the act G and 7 Will. IV., c. 77, contained, among other, the fd easements " That, in order to provide for the aug. mitigation o the income, of the smaller bishoprics, such tiled annual eons be paid to the commissioners out of the revenues of the teraw ems lespestively as shall, upon doe inquiry sad eonsideration, be dr. tannins il as, so as to leave as an average annual income to the Arc/I talia stOnterbury, 13,0001. • to the Archbishop of York, 10,0001. ; to the Blase of London, 10,00 01. •to the Bishop of Durham, 4,0004; to 'hal/am et Whecheotor, 7,0001 • to the Bishop of Ely, 3,0001. ; to the Mb* et 1/1. Assets end leneOr, 5,2061. ; and to the Bubo, a 1 Wannalsr rl lath mid Wens megeotively, 0,0004. And that, out of the Oil eras essedea fired ennisel payer* be made by the cum. In web Inetenses sad to seli sweent as shall be in like ware es. se Mei the smogs eneml beam ot the other Whips impesllvely be wt lee then 4.01e1. nee mere than SAM. And that. el the espbmilea at ivory semi sun% nebeeleg Oaths In b et Jwesef, IW, a sew ran el the memo et eli the bisheerke he math le Se semelmitmee; eel that llerespon the male at *Nepal pay end metals be reelmd, mos to preserve, as nearly se may ha, to Ilia Wien en amemt et hexer smdodent to that wb shall haw bets toe Ant isetsece to be suitable es the alone nee of hi Mimic ; and that seek revised male take= as te seek see y, upon the thee neat avoklarse ^ 714 ea Wiltn i a v y el ot January, 1643, • new renew of the remits et an Os bliegries, as acderea, from the hit day et , 1147. b lyd Ilseember, was pro emial to • awl , an the oth day of February, lilikaad the lei d 4 et Sum, respectiz2zz a presented the bit and Nial god womb et Use oommlr dames, show*: bra Me prewhiees el the shave-named act had teas Cist•Mil Ont. 3. TIM, to these reports, tarnished by the roc'esiee tear tweaminiamee tliemeedvas, It appears to this home. that the of the act l & 7 W. 4,e. 77, so fares relates to emery* have not been carried out according to the iMeldioon of psellemest. PLIIMPTRE seconded the motion. Sit G. GREY 'greed with the hon. gentleman who introduced this subject as to the spiritual destitution which existed in the populous parts of the country, and that the revenues of the church ought to be made as available as pos sible to meet that destitution; but he would ask his hon. friend who seconded the motion whether he thought, that if they passed a censure on the ecclesiastical commissioners in the terms of the third resolution, it would advance that ob ject. He came down to meet the case of the hon. gentleman, but he alluded to the returns of the report of 1831, and it was entirely • gratuitous assumption on Lis part to assume that the commissioner acted on this report, and that the fixed payments they imposed on the vacancies of the ems to which he referred, were founded on the returns of there port of 1831. On the contrary, the returns of 1831 had, la no one instance, formed the basis on which they framed the annual payments of the larger sees, or the payments to be added to the smaller ones. In 1835 the right hon. baronet (Sir R. Peel) appointed an ecclesiastical commission, with the view of promoting the very objects which his hon. friend opposite so much desired. They made their report in March, 1836, and that report contained various recom mendations in the shape of resolutions, having for their ob ject the equalisation of episcopal duties and revenues, or rather a tendency to such an equalisation, for an absolute and complete equalisation was not possible. They sdriaed that fixed annual sums should be paid to the 'poorer sees cut of the revenues of the larger, so as to leave certain Bums applicable as income in certain cases ; and they further recommended that, once in every seven years, returns of inmate should be made, loam averages mightbestruckon which there might be fresh appointments. Now he (Sir G. Grey) was not contending that that arrangement was not capable of great amendment, nor was he contending that great reductions in bishop's' incomes might not be made; but what he did contend for waa, that the evil, if there was any, did not arise from the fault of the commissioners, but from the fault of the act of parliament. Mr. HORSMAIi —Not at all. Sir G. ORRY.—The lion. member said not at all ; but the question was, had the ecclesiastical commissioners carried oat the peovisiocis of that act? (Hear, hear.) What had they done ? The hon. member said the returns made in compliance with the act were grossly incorrect He (Sir G. Grey) had net looked into those returns; he had not had time to do so, and, therefore, all he should say was, that the bishops, if the representations of the hon, member went correct, must in 1831 have taken a somewhat desponding view of their affairs. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) But the hon. member had made a great mistake in taking the return of 1831 at all. That was not the return on which the eerie etudes' commissioners' calculations were founded. They had calculated on a return made in 1837, a Mara which showed the incomes of the sees to be very much larger than they were taken to be on the averages of 1891. Look at Canterbury for example. The hoc. member mid that it was returned at 17,3001. in 1831, but in 1837 it waa returned at 22,3001., and it was upon this calculation that the oommile liners ordered 7,3001. to be paid as surplus by the arch bishop. [Ace Hon. Member: Take Durham.] Well, he would take Durham. At what had the hon. member pat down Durham? [Mr. Hononan : 19,0001.] Well, that was correct, (hear, beer,) and the conuniadoners had upon the calculation charged 11,2001. upon the see of Durham, being the full amount of the difference between the annual in came, end the amount fixed by act of parliament Mr. HORSMAN—But the income of Durham has been nearly 12,0001. a-year. Sir G. ORBY—That he knew nothing about. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") If it was so, it was a fault of the ecclesiastical commissioners. (Renewed ironical cheering.) The see of Durham became vacant; the bishop was not per mitted to take poesestion of it until the charge was imposed this arrangement, as the hon. member himself mid, was ex pressly made retrospective in order to meet this case. Well, the average of the seven years previous gave the see of Durham 19,2001. a year, and upon that the calculations of the commissioners were made. The commisioners could do nothing else. Their hands were tied by the act of parlia ment, and they had no right to call upon the Bisbee 01 Durham or any one else to violate that act. (Cheers, sad ironical laughter.) Now, it was not his (Sir G. Grey's) wish to lessen the force of the appeal the hon. member had made to the bishops concerning spiritual destitution. The Bishop of Durham, the Archbishop of Canterbarh and the Bishop of London, had all contributed very greatly towards its removal in their respeotim dioceses, but the non-removal of that destitutim we. not the fault of those prelates, or of the mar dastical commission, and it would, therefore, be wrong ss visit upon them the blame which attached to others. TM hon. member had referred to the cam of Salisbury. Now the returns in existence when the ecclesiastical commission arranged their scheme, in 1837, gave the Bishop'of fialiabare ea income not exceeding 5,5001. a year. It had bees that when a bishop's income was not less then sr ranged4 , and not more than 5,5001., no charge should take piece, and therefore the Bishop of Salisbury on coming into he see was exempted from making any payment. But the biahop had not been altogether exempted from the operation of the act, for he had since been called upon to mike a re turn of the income of his see, and the commission, upon the