The Express. — London, England, 1847-02-13 00:00:00

proposed. A noble bird had rece-dly spoken of ; " the new and fantosical principles of political economy " but he doubted whether, even in those happy feudal times to which such fregiu.nt allusion was now made, such thing, as largo loans of public money from the public p :rat were so commoi as some hod. members appeared to suppose ; (laughter,l he doubted whether the feudal lords advanced money to their tenants or the peasantry. The word " sallt age," in the records of the neighbouring country, referred to vary different stet , of things. (Hear.) Now, advances of loans by toe state were generally positive parties could give good aceurity for the money required, it was very seldom that any difficulty would he experienced in obtaining it. The Roble lord said, that these railroads would afford security of the mot unexceptionable character. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had no wish to depreciate the value of those undertakings, but wheu he looked at the advances which had ben made for public works of various descriptions in Ireland, and at the result, he did not feel very sanguine as to the value of such security. Can Its had at cue time been in a very similar position as regarded internal communication to that occu p ied byailways at the present time ; and on looking at the ad vances made to them, he found that not one of the advances had been repaid. He might refer to the Laggan Coosa as an illustration. Again, a deputation from the proprietors of the Ulster Canal had waited on him the other day, to represent that unless the whole of the debt due to the government were remitted it would be impossibl , for them to proceed. The whole cost of the canal was 160,0001.; 130,00 W. had been ad vanced by the public, and no payment whatever had been made either of principal or interest. (Hear.) There was also the case of the Grand Canal. It was not three years since an act was passed doctoring that whereas a sum of 40,0001., an other sum of 38,0001., and other amounts, making altogether 98,0001., had been advanced for that canal; and whereas the undertaking was utterly unable to pay either principal or in terest, upon the receipt of 10,0001., the 90,00 W., with interest, should be forgiven. (Laughter.) Other advances had been made to the largo towns and cities of Ireland, with a similar result. There was at that moment due from the city of Dublin 24-5,0001., which was considered quite irrecoverable. Advances hail been made for the widening (as was under stood) of the streets of Cork-13,00W. for principal, 10,0001. for interest, but no repayment had been male. The sum of 51,0001. had been advanced to the city of Limerick, upon which there was now due a large amount for interest, but no payments of any kind had been made on account i of either principal or nterest. Thu-, if they conoidered advances made either fur internal communications, or to the three richest towns and cities in Ireland, the same result would be found—no repayment of either principal or interest, and all the advances and the interest sacrificed. A distinction eoisted with reapect to the advances in Ireland made to private individual, which hail in most cases been repaid, but the advances made to private companies and under takings of this description had, generally speaking, not been paid. The advances made to the Dublin and Kingstown Railway had. however, been all repaid. (Loud cheers from Lord George Bentinck and ether members sitting near him.) He thought the noble lord would not be able to discover that that railway and the railways proposed to be con structed all over the country were in • parallel psi tion. It was then by no means so clear as the noble lord had supposed that the security to be afforded by these railways was of so unexeeptioaal a character. (Hear.) There was another objection to the measure of the noble lord, namely, that, considered as a comprehensive scheme, it would put both good and tad schemes upon • footing of equality. If the proposed examination of the Board of Works were to be of any avail, and the board rejected all those measures which would not afford adequate security, then the measure of the noble lord would not amount to muck—(laughter)—but if the board should think flt to recommend all the schemes, a grievous injustice would be inflicted on those schemes which were really solid and good ones. He had been informed that on the best of the lines now in course of construction, in which the company had advanced sums sufficient to enable them to borrow under the terms of their act, the parties had been for some time borrowing money at 41 or 5 per cent. Upon the announce ment of the noble lord, that the other railways would be able to obtain advances at 31 per cent., the value et the shares immediately fell one per cent. ; he referred to the Great Southern and Western. — He would now trouble the house by readier an extract from a letter which be had received from a wealthy gentleman in Dublin, whose opinion was entitled to great respect. This gentleman said " If the government were to lend money at 31 per cent. fur railway projects, the effect would be to render the most bankrupt concerns rich, and to put them on a level with the best lines. If the government should be insane enough to yield to the cry for assistance for railways in Ireland without the mo-t stringent conditions, and the most satisfactory explanatioos, as to the proprie tary and the paid up capital, the railroad, of Ire land will be sinks of peculation, improvidence, and ruin." (Hear, hear.) He confessed that when he looked at the bill he thought some of its provisions appeared as if they had been introduced expresely to suit cases in which gentlemen bad been induced to advance their money on speculations which had not afforded quite such good se curity as they expected, and in which such gentlemen now desired to throw the responsibility on the state. For instance, the 29th clause enacted, "That all parties holding securities in these lines might give notice that they should require the company to pay off all such securities." No doubt that was a remarkably good provision for those who held shares—(cheers) —but it was not so well calculated to ensure employment to destitute persons, or to give security to the public. Then, again, there was a clause which provided that in the event of a company abandoning works, those works should be taken up by the state, who should be liable for all the debts and engagements of the company. He did not think such propositions calculated to provide for the em ployment of destitute persons in Ireland ; but he admitted that they might be remarkably beneficial to shareholders. (Hear.) In fact, a great many of the provisions of the bill were better calculatxt for the relief of destitute shareholders than destitute persons. (Cheers.) There had been however, a much more tempting project before the house than that of the noble lord. Some time before the introduction of the mea sure of the noble lord • meeting was held in Dublin by shareholders in different Irish railways ' who agreed to • petition, which was subsequently presented to the house, asking—not for so large an amount of money as the noble lord sought—but for a much less sum. It was proposed that no advances should be made to companies, unless they had expended 20 per cent. of their capital, and that the govern ment should advance 30 per cent. when they had expended 501. per cent. of their capital. (Hear.) Thus the plan was, that for every 501. per cent. of the capital expended on the works, the government should advance 301. per cant. The amount asked for by the government at • former period, in 1839, was 5,000,0001., and he doubted whether even that could be raised without deranging the money market. This brought him to the questiou of the amount of employment to be afforded by the noble lord's measure, and it was remarkable that this did not exceed that which was expected from the expenditure of 5,000,0001. He thought the noble lord must have included in his cal culations some railways already constructed. He was led to this conclusion by the account furnished by the Irish railway companies to which he had referred, and if that were the Casa • deduction must be made. He doubted whether there was as much as 1,600 miles of railway sanctioned by parliament yet to be constructed. Without presuming to enter into competition with the hon. member for Sunderland on this subject, he had done his best to ascertain the number of persons per mile usually em ployed on railways. A person of great experience in such matters had informed him, that he calculated that not more than 25 per cent., or 1,000,0001. a yearof the 4,000,0001. would go for labour • and that the average number of la bourers employed per ;tile, for the whole year, would be from 20 to 30 men. He wou take the hihest figure: that would give five and forty thous ld and men for g the 1,500 miles. If the calculation were correct, a coasidemble dehesthn met late made from the number of persons who would be even through his own =moue. Again,the noble lea that there were five persons to a family, aMil that 550,000 persons would be supported if 110,000 balsearare were employed. He thought, however, that the ben. gen tleman opposite (lir. Hudson) would b ear him at in dat ing that there was little probability that, for able bodied person employed, four other persons would 'n a subsistence. Any one who bad ever lived in the vielalty of railway works mud be aware (that 'the persons einp upon them were not generally family men, that they be loaged to • different clam. Few of them were in the clue of destitute persons in Ireland. The hon. member for the University of Dublin had stated the other night that, in a part of the ceuntry where he had been ex ceed ingly anxious to obtain labourers for the earthwork of • railroad, it was found impomible to employ the unskilled ant destitute persons who were the objects of this measure. That was the case in other parts of the country. It was only the other night that an hon. member stated that the works of the Waterford and Kilkenny Railway had been executed by the contractors with labourers brought from distant parts of the country, and not forming a portion of the destitute persons whom it was desired to relieve. (Hear, hear.) Early in November lad the Treasury had Witted a minute connecting employment on railways with the ivlief of distress, by enabling baronies to pass presentments for earthworks. Great difficulty, however, had been expe rienced in the execution of this scheme, and it had originated, se he was told, with people upon the spot. He was in formed that few railway companies were in a position to obtain possession of land• but when th e y were, this diffi culty occurred. The baronies were ready enough to pre sent; but they connected with their presentment this con dition, that, afterthe execution of the line, the whole amount of the presentment should be defrayed by the companies. The railway companies, however, objected to this. T he y argued, and with some realloo " If we execute with skilled labour, we can effect the Aped at less time and cost than if we em ploy your unskilled erthens, and it is, therefore, unfair to Make as pay you • imipa sem became we employ your an d dle& +Grimm than we should pa if we were left to ahem our own lahearers." The however, refused to simmode. f lay rafted, even for the ;eke of employing I their own peer, submit to the loss et the trifling diffusor* balms,a the met of emention by the empany's labourers, and the cost of mention by _thsh , own mea t y; (Hear, hear.) This was a dillealty, there/ we, whisk not from the == . : L et with the government, but with the (Hear, hear.) There wee ems ihio—deet hem Weenellerd to Limerick, in favour of whisk, the firer beroniss thrommt which it pared had sob pammentesents as the ammant e/ 78,000!. But the ..meat time ents were mots, and the contracts osowhes. *or (the government,) received a letter from the seigetary el Os sompiliy, stating that they did not fled it meal& salt their pamper to employ as labourers the destitute yawls et the otrostry, seed that they must be permitted to teeth& weelimen where they pleased. (Haar, hear.) mos ea sod a they of the argument that this measure was wholated te garnets the employment of the destitute people et billed. It was notorious, also, that the great isms dies vellereys yhshodwhether formed or to be hems& were lass et the east side of that country. This wee set the past at Ireimi la width the dimities was the greatest : the peasantry residing on the western onset were those on whom the calamity pressed with the utmost seve rity. How were these people to be employed span railways c instrectieg in the east and north of Ireland? (Hear, hear.) If an attempt was made to bring labour from other parts, I the result would probably be riots and faction fights, assaults by the peasantry of the locality either on the labourers brought to Interfere with their employment, or upon the overseer. and superintendents who brought them. (Cheers.) He th ought then that he had shown that this measure, as a measure of relief, was utterly worthless. But he knew that in tun opinion of many Irish members the scheme hail a peculiar charm. (" Hese," and a laugh.) Now if there was no other plan before the house—if the government were doing nothing whatever for the benefit of Ireland, some weight might attach to this proposal to afford employment and relief to the sufferings of the people. But if there were other schemes before them—if there were plans for their con sideration which would place money and food more directly is the hands of those who most needed it—if there were plain effecting all that this plan proposed, at far less cost to Onset Britain—then he did say, looking at the sacrifice the people of this country were called upon to make, that it was right to be just before we were generous. (Renewed cheers.) Now, the measure which they hail passed that evening, would, he believed, have a tendency to afford immediate assistance to the people of Ireland, whilst it had, at the same time, a tendency to develop her resources. That Ireland poewssed resources—that she might do much for her popu lation from her own means—wa. proved by a statute which ha held in his hand. There was a barony in the Queen's County, in which the relief committee had made a collection for the poor ; 1761. was received. Of that sum 1301. was ob tained from the policemen and small formers, and only 401. from the owners of land. (Hear, hear.) The same post which brought this account, brought a statement from the county Mayo. In that county so far from sub scribing to maintain the people , the landlords were pursuing their tenants with processes to an extent exceeding every thi before known. At the Bellies quarter seesions no less than 6400 processes for rent were entered, 4000 of which were at the suits of landlords. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") The people in that county were said to have pledged everything they possessed to pay their rents. Whole tracts of land were unpeopled. Ilence, no doubt, the thronged quays of Liverpool with labourers landed from the Sligo steamers. If this system was to be pursued, they might indeed despair of Ireland; but if, on the other hand, the course pursued in the Queen's County were followed, at any rate those who were better off would have the gratifica tion of feeling that thousands had been by their means pre served from the effects of famine. (Cheering.) Tin hon. member for Bath had asked him the other night to make the country acquainted with what, no doubt, they had a right to know—how it was proposed to meet the expenditure which the measures of the government would entail. On an early occasion it would be his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) duty to give an answer to that ques tion. (Hoar, hear.) In the meanwhile, however, he must express his surprise at h acing the inquiry followed up by the hon. member for Limerick, who wished, L forsooth, to know " when this profitless expenditure was to menc." (Ironical cries of " Hear. hear," from the ministe rial side.) " Profitless" he (the Chancellor of the Exche quer) could not consider it, whilst it had the effect of saving the lives of those who would otherwise perish from starvation—(hear, hear)--and he could not help observing that whilst the bon. member for Limerick was finding fault with this " profitless expenditure," which was saving the existence of thousands, he (Mr. S. O'Brien) _proposed no plan for saving those lives himself! (Loud ministerial cheers.) But the measures of the government must in his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) opinion go far beyond the relief of destitution. A change—a men' revolution—in the state of Ireland had taken place. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) believed much good might be derived from that change, if proper advantage were taken of it. The failure of the potato crop might, in its ultimate effect, turn out a blessing to Ireland. Without the potato the plot of ground ceased to be of its original value for the main tenance of the people, and as its value ceased so would cease that agrarian outrage which followed a desire for its posseseion. The people would be no longer maintained by the food they themselves produced, and if advantage were properly taken of this, the peasant of Ireland might be transformed into a peaceable labourer, earning the wages of his employer— than which no change could be effected of gri atcr benefit to the nation. But this, they must bear in mind, was a dif ferent state of things from collecting large masses of Irish labourers together, and working them in gangs in the con struction of railways. That which the Irish bad yet to learn was eteady employment on the land fsr the daily wages of their labour. That should be the object to the promotion of whichtheir legislation shouldbe addressed. A bill prepared by the government was now before parliament with a view to this I object, by advancing money to landlords for the repro ailed ve ment of their estates. If the landlords properly m themselves of that bill they might hope for the commence ment of a better system. The labour of the Irish would • then be employed for reproductive purpose*, and in the im provement of that land, from the tillage of which hereafter they were to derive their means of subeistenee. The other 1 measures intended by the government had all the same aim I and object, and he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was I prepared to call on the people of England to contribute to- 1 wards the promotion of that design. When, however, he read from day to day heartrending accounts of distress given in the metropolis, when he beard of the stoppage of mills and manufactories in the great towns of the north, he did think they ought to be careful not to press unduly upon the people of this country. lie should be ashamed to ran the risk of imposing any burden on the people of this earsagrefte:inmgezutzuw, h a i n cl d i ; e as ti :rat ;s o li , : i nt en o t , e fisr , , the ur . - peae biß be read a second time this day six months." The question having been put, • Mr. H. J. BAILLIE (who sat immediately behind Lord George Bentinck and next to the Lord Mayor of York) rose, M a Scotch member, to enter a protest against the appropria tion of any public money to the construction of railways in /Mind unless they were prepared to apprspriate money to the aseetnuniase of railways in Scotland also. (Hear, hear.) Is Seethrel they were suffering the same evils min Ireland ; imt freesseeetker were doing their duty—because they were Eigiesisege‘of efforts to save the population from , it essmed they were not to be supported, and they nothing a any appropriation to them of any portion of the to swab. (Hear.) Now, there was no reason la the weeM why the landlords of Ireland should not adopt the nos measures for the reliof of their dependents as the Image bad done in Scotland. With respect to the measure of thimble lord , he could easily conceive that the Lord Mayor of Yeah might readily conviree himself that railways were a univenne pennon for all the ills that flesh was heir to; but that the adds lard, the member for Lynn, should adopt such an idea—that he should suppose that a people were to be fed not by working the land, but by turning their attention to the construction of railcar, was a circumstance whisk he owned astonished him. Hear, hear.) If the of Ireland were to subsist in reland, it must be by s better cultivation of the land of Ireland; and when that land was improved and rendered productive, then he (Mr. Baillie) did not doubt but that railways would 'se con structed to meet the requirements of the people. (Cheers.) Mr. J. STUART entirely agreed in all the compli ments the hon. member had paid to the Scotch proprietors. He depreceted the manner in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer, forgetting his own maxim, had imputed per sonal motives of no creditable character to the promoters of this measure ; whereas no names were more honourably regarded by the country than were those which appeared on the back of the bill. The measure was denounced as one which propo sed to invest the government with the character of moray- enders. What were all the measures which go- vernment themselves had this year proposed in reference to Ireland, but, like the present, measures for advancing money or aiding is advance for the extension of railways, and the employment of the poor in Ireland ? Nothing could be ' more erroneous than the proposition that the public money heretofore expended in Ireland had been unavailingly spent and had not been repaid. As to the proposition before the house, it would really seem, from the speeches of the hon. gentleman that what the noble member for Lynn proposed was, to take four millions of money per annum direct out of the pockets of the English tax-payer, whereas all the noble lord proposed was, that in cases where the proper government officer, responsible to parliament for the upright and proper performance of his duty, should re port particular railways to be eound and beneficial , end when constructed calculated to be security fo P ;: o & e e r r t7 e. payment of the advances, that in such cases, and only in such aces, governmeat should lend its credit for the advance of money to such projects. The mode of affording this aid might be either by Exchequer bills, which, if the govene - meat officer did his duty, the companies would never require the government to meet, or by debentures. It was not the first time that government had given assist ance to a public work. In the case of the Caledonian Cana, the public money bad been actually lent for its construction. (Hear.) He had been surprised and grieved to hear of some right hon. and bon, gentlemen who intended to oppose this bill. He would salt them how they could, recollecting what they had done themselves, stand up and taunt the noble lord, the member for Lynn, and the hon. member for Sunderland, with bringing forward a measure to cart away the receipts of the tax -gatherer. (Hear.) In France and Belgium, governments had interfered with railway speculation, and with the greatest advantage. In thole countries government bad taken the railways into their own hands, and become railway speculators themselves. What said the free traders when speaking without party prejudice ? (Hear.) Mr. Pcirter, in speaking of the Belgian railways, stated that, although the government hardly realised interest on the money advanced, yet the general advantages to the country were so great ea amply to make up the deficiency. (Hear, hear.) Thus had spoken the honest free-trader, when uninfluenced by party considers tions, and when no screw had Men applied to coerce his opinion. (Loud cheers.) It enured that now, no matter what might be the opinions has. members, no matter what might be the merits of the MINN they must shut their eyes to the light in obedience to the seise minister, led a great calamity might follow. (Hest, beer.) If they did not do eo they mad expect • cabin* walls than the !ammo in Irstusi--ethle thaa the &eats from hunger of its ne l li g%tkl emi lattglier.) He e m ese ehou t tl ;7;1. 1 1 lammes at the premeat asomee emelt resignation Ma MIMI goat and aldose wesbasmateasat. But it was lama* verb She while et h weil goveveseest, while it was a Mien belkseelea et • wee. se weipe such topics on drat Wass (lisse.) lb lespil bas areiben who might be "lir t i r s a g t hesa W : d retorted all h a lt :bajme, ll. 7:en t d , a r ha need l id . " pi iEI 7 his e rs i b hon . 'in of '.* “ pensa lled by , ear . large .") Th ...i e en ter , prime t minister h., ... had, after dowa a vote a large maloty of that house, esma down and tehl kis supporter s if if thm did not rescind that vote ha would reign. They yielded, and, in doing so ' et * p a t very diamszeses results, while they 171. sans the minister. (Hem. hew-) Again, on the Irish Coercion bill, um wore asked to pursue the same OD Tee • they mewed, sad th e tight hon. member for Tantßerth was justly deprived of the government of the em °U . /. Ills noble friend had placed before the hoe a 1111••• which had all the marks of wralom, considered in the 'es. y' strut, and all the proofs of wisdom, as derived foam espa per:ence. Why, then, should there be a question about it? Because, forsooth, the profits were to go into the pockets of the Irish members.• It was • mockery to sa so. (Hear, hear.) Again it was alleged that there were a great many projects fur Ireland, and that government would be obliged to pr. fer some, and so cause jealousy. But our whole rail way system was one of preferences--the preference of rod lines and goodarauritv over bad ones. The right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had also expressed his fears that there would be created great uneasiness among railway shareholders. Now, these men were irenerally speculators, and therefore belonged to a class for which he (Mr. Stewart) felt very little sympathy. If the public were served, it mattered little that railway specu lators should for some time suffer • little anxiety. (Hear, hear.) It was acknowledged that the bill would give vasi employment, but the noble lord at the head of the govern ment said that it would only be to the able-bodied Was that no benefit ? (Hear.) %Vas it no object that the money was not to be employed, as were the government wages at present, in giving wages to the halt and the lame ? Would not room be made for them in lighter occupations, by the absorption of able-bodied labour on railways? (Hear, hear.) Besides, did not the wages of each able-bodied man involve the support of a wife and children, a father, or perhaps, a brother. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. the Chan cellor of the Exchequer carried the objection one shade farther and urged that railway projects would be attracted to the east come, while the starvation lay all in the west. Why, fur political economists and free-traders to say that you did not relieve the condition of the population on the west oust, whin you created a demand for labour on the east, was an argument which he could not understand. (Hear, hear.) Did env one think that the able-bodied men of the west of Ireland would not travel to the east, or any where else, when a demand existed for their labour. These arguments were a mockery. (Loud Protectionist cheers.) The works now proposed were certain to be useful, they would confer great blessings in their progress, and he thought that govern ment would be clearly justified in pledging the national credit for their advancement. (Loud Protectionist cheers.) Mr. F. T. BARING said that the speech of the honorable and learned member who had just sat down, was no answer to the able statement of his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he wished that the hon. and learned member had applied his ability rather to answering the objection in that statement, than to mere declamation on the general question. (Hear, hear.) There was one point which the honourable and learned member had treated lightly, but to which he (Mr. Baring) perhaps from former habits was inclined to attach much weight--he meant the financial bearings of the question. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member had stated that the plan was to save the tax payer, but he (Mr. Baring) would require very good authority for believing that statement. He confessed that the manner in which that point had been urged inspired him rather with fear than confidence. lie was not inclined to underrate the power of this country to meet emergencies, but here, in addition to all the money already expended or about to be expended in Ireland, was a proposal to pledge the country to sixteen millions more, hand over head. It was to be raised bydoan too, four millions a year for four years. That was no thing —a mere trifle. (Hear and cheers.) the hon. member suggested exchequer bills, and was good enough to tell the house what an exchequer bill was. (A laugh.) He (Mr. Baring) did not know where the hon. member had obtained his information. l'erhaps from the noble lord who had last night expressed his rea din ess to undertake the government, and who, from his great statis tical knowledge, meet likely aspired to the place which he (Mr. Baring) had unworthily filled. Hevery much doubted whether the noble lord would find it so easy to get four millions of exchequer bills. Those bills were just now wavering on the borders, and if they threw more into the market, they might not only raise the interest en the four millions required, bat on all which were in circulation al reedy. (Hear, hear.) If that was the plan of honourable mmaers opposite, if that was their mode of raising money, he must confess that he had cot greet con fidence in their financial )speculations. (Hear and cheers.) The hon, and learned member said they were quite sure of repayment, but when he came to handle the arguments about security for repayment, the hon. and learned member touched them very lightly, and glided away to the great advantages to be derived from public works. He said, that iwen where loans for public works had not been repaid, still great advan tages had accrued ; and attacked the right hon. the Chan eellor of the Exchequer fur enumerating public work+ in Ireland which had not been paid for. Why, his right hon. friend had not denied that government advances might con fer great benefits, but had stated these facts merely to show that loans for public works in Ireland were not always a secure investment, and when they came to talk of a loan of sixteen millions, it was worth while to see what chance there was of its being re paid. (Hear, hear.) The Dublin and Kingstown Railway had been mentioned as an instance in which government money had beenlent, and punctually repaid: but was a short line through the richest district in Ireland to be taken as a rule for all the rest ? The hon. and learned member said, that the money was not to be advanced without such security as would satisfy the railway board. If that was the cane, it was not likely that the noble lord's plan would come into extensive operation. (Rear, hear.) But mark how the system would work. One of the main arguments in its favour was, that it would employ a large portion of the population. But where were the best lines—they must go through the richest portions of the country. Such lines might get some assistance from the railway board, but there would be no chance for the more distressed districts of Ire land. (Hear, hear.) The measure was based principally on two points from which the honourable and learned member seemed much inclined to shift. One was the temporary difficulty in the present distress the other was permanent advantage to Ireland. His right bon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had spoken u to the mode in which the plan proposed to deal with the temporary difficulty, and be had told them that for every 4,0001. they advanced,l,oool. only would be expended in the employment of labour. Had that objection been answered ? The people of England had a right to ask into whose pockets the other three would go. The greater part of it would go to the land lords in the purchase of land. On the part of the people of England, he protested against the employment of their capi tal to give this advantage to the Irish landlords. His right Ilion. friend had also shown that the employment would be t e t n in in ace , : reere railways it was wo llgo n le o rt rui Ti t t o red ui and the Bacot destitute districts of the country, it would to t employment where it was least wanted, and part of the population which was suffering die greatest distress would be untouched by the noble lord's measure. To that objection an answer had been attempted. It was said, even though this were the case, the taking of a large number of able-bodied men from their usual occupa tions, and employing them in the construction of these rail ways, must open a market for the labourers of the western sad more distressed parts, to fill their places. He admitted that after a certain time, that which would benefit one part el Ireland must benefit all the rest : but time was everything when men were starring ; and so far as immediate relyd went, the noble lord's plan would be inoperative. Again, as his right hon. friend had said, railways did not employ the population of the districts through which they ran. This the hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Stewart) had not denied., but had met it by falling back on political oismeng s morning that by taking a certain number of men est of Ow usual labour market, those who were till then without employment would come in. Again, he said it was a question of time, and in this case you must curry the em ployment to the distant districts, instead of waiting until the navvies of England and those persons in Ireland who might be best capable of performing such work were all engaged ea these railways for the starving people in the west to be . The general effect of - the reports . upon the sub went to show that the beat way of employing the people of Ireland was not in large bodies , but by distributing them, and carrying, if possible, the work to their own doors that, the expensive plan of the noble lord would not accomplish. The object of the govern ment in the measures they had adopted had been to find the people, and to a certain extent in that respect they had succeeded, and that being the case he did not regret the expenditure incurred for the purpose. He would now call attention to one part:which, out of doors at all events, would not hold good. Not only had the bill been described as • great and comprehensive scheme, bet Mr. Porter had been quoted to show the advantage of employing the public money upon public works. It might be admitted to be an advantage to the government in some cases to give its credit to suck objects. It was true that in 1839 he had himself voted . for the late Mr. Drummond's proposal, to advance money for the promotion of railways in Ireland. (Cheers from the opposition.) He for the government he was a member of with more difficulty than on that occasion, and the difficulties he then felt tubes queue consideration bad not removed—(hear)—for he felt that in England at least it was far better to leave large undertakings to the exertions of private energy and private capital. In • country like this he believed that was the course most suitable to the genius and coutitution of the people, but on the other hand he admitted that in the case of railways it was not away, without its inconvenience. And, with regard to the general system of railways he knew that other countries had pursued a different course— s ' course which undoubtedly had its advantages. But he wanted to show that none of those advan tages which other countries had secured to themselves would result from " this great and comprehensive scheme." (A laugh.) What was the case in Belgium? Had the government there advanced money to private speculators? Not a bit of it. Oa the contrary, the government there had taken the whole railway communication into their own hands. Were that scheme proposed for this country he should have objected to it, but it had its advantages never theless. One great convenience of railways in government hands wee, that you bad • great monopoly that was for public instead of for private advantaFs. If you charged too high, the extra profits went hack into the revenue, and, if too low, the loss of balance to the exchequer went to the benefit of the people. Thera:was ol io another advantage if you had profitable railways in the hands of the govern ment, you might use them to mist in tasking up the loss from unprofitable ones. You would have the whole net work in your hands, and by a combination, a better might be obtained than when each railway depenret e : itself. But not one of thou advantages could result from the noble lord's bill. (Hear, hear.) There was no advan tage to be gained from it to the public, as in the came of Belgium, though care was taken by the railway gentlemen whom the noble lord had consulted to preserve the monopoly as secure as it existed is this country. The profitable lines would consequently go on, and the unprofitable ones would be ultimately handed to the government. But upen the ' general question—it was not under the pressure of • great emergency that they alvauld deal with a great and permanent pablie question. Drat with the emergency first, and 'then go to the PuMsturat measure. Then what was the ov,e with the PTA ealtreays ? Did the Trench govocaugoat advance money to the railway companies, leaving them monopolies in the end and obtaining nothing in return ? Ile did not mean ta say that the French was a better ',item than our own ; but then the:government there got something by what they did. lie believed, in France, the railways were :waled to convey the mails, troops, and military was free of charge—and then, a still more important nia ,„ ter—the lines were all leased to the companies for a eerie sin number of years, at the end of which they would fa il je t , ,he hands of the public. An hon. friend of his had said. th,:t had England adopted that course at the be ginning, whet. railways were first about to be constructed here, we shoula be able by that means to pay off the national debt. No such mode of paying off the national debt how• ever was provided i'or in the noble lord's bill. (Hear, hear.) H e sa id, thee this scheme had :lone of the advantages of the foreign railways, and wee one of the least wise arrangements, as a permanent one, he had ever heard suggested. On these grounds, therefore, he considered that the noble lord's measure was not wisp ted, either to meet the immediate difficulty, nor as a permanent arrangement as to railways generally. In saying this, he wished oat to be understood as desiring to bind the hands the govern ment in particular cases, or present their makie:g advances for the earth-works of railways in particular district s. (Hear, hear.) This point, he hoped, would receive consideration; but if they made a great arrangement for these purposes— if they advanced the capital of the country in this way, though they might talk of it as a loan—if they took sixteen millions out of the fund which was destined to employ the people of England, and transferred it to the employment of the people of Ireland—let them, at least, take a fair view of the subject—let them look into it fully, and give some equivalent advantages to the public in return. (Hear, hear.) If they followed the policy of foreign governments, let them follow their prudence also—(Hear) —rand not advance money in a way that would produce no equivalent advantage imme diately In relieving the destitute population of Ireland, and which for the future would be effectual only in giving strength to monopoly, without any corresponding benefit to the country. (Hear, hear.) Sir J. TYRRELL contended that the noble lord's plan would not only conduce to the immediate but the permanent benefit of Ireland. With regard to the money difficulty, the right hon. member for Tamworth iu lilt), when a plan for assisting the Irish railways was brought forward, held that there was no fear on that head. Mr. D. BROWN was not prepared to vote for the measure of the noble lord, the member for Lynn, because he con sidered by that vote he should be declaring his con fidence in any administration that might be formed by him, and his want of confidence in the present government. Under any circumstances he was not prepared to support the policy of that noble lord until he should ascer tain from him what were his intentions respecting those matters connected, not only with the social but the political condition of Ireland. He could not forget that the noble lord's party bad been for centuries the consistent opponents of civil and religions liberty—he could not forget that they had been the consistent supporters of monopoly, both as regarded the commercial and political interests of the country. Viscount BERNARD intended to give an honest and in dependent vote for thin as for every other measure of which he approved. (Hear, hear.) If liable to the objections urged against it he would not vote for it, but he thought those objections groundless. The railways to which it would be applied would be subject to • greater scrutiny than at present, so that instead of encouraging bad speculations, those only would be assisted which were honestly and fairly conducted. (Hear, hear.) He (Lord Bernard) regarded the proposition of the noble lord the member for Lyan, as one calculated to save the lien of the suffering population of Ireland; and he believed that it would lay the seeds, not only of the most beneficial results, but of harmony and peace in that portion of the dominions of the crown. (Hear, hear.) Mr. CHAPLIN proceeded to address the house. The hon. member said he should not have risen to address the house so soon after having become one of its members, but for the importance of the question no w under its consideration; and he trusted the short space within which he should limit his observations, would be a sufficient apology for his presenting himself to its attention. (Hear.) He had been struck with the zeal and ability with which the noble lord the member for Lynn had brought forward • 'measure which he (Mr. Chaplin) thought put the government mea sures, with respect to Ireland, out of all comparison. (Hear.) He had also noticed the remarkable accuracy as to details and data which had attended the statement of the noble lord, and which he (Mr. Chaplin) would say, as a practical man, were incontrovertible. (Hear, hear.) He fully believed that iu every particular the cakulations and data of the noble lord were within bounds, and from the experience he (Mr Chaplin s had in such affairs,he was sure of success in the pro fit/ and likewise in the security of the capital invested. The same sentiment could not, he thought, be expressed with reference to the propositions or the demands of the govern ment, because their propositions were not only uncertain as to the produce, but much more so in regard to the security of the capital. (" Hear, hear" from lord G. Bentinck) Much had been said in the course of this discussion oa the subject of commissions for public works. Such commissions had been aforetime issued in England, and he would in stance that carried by the late Sir Henry Parnell, to im prove the roads between the metropolis and Holyhead. Under that commission large sums of public money had been lavished, and the expenditure continued between Tow °ester and Daventry, in the direction of Birmingham, at the very time the railway was in the course of being laid down. In the end, the expenditure lavish as it was, proved uselem, because the railway, when finished, took all the traffic. (Hear, hear.) It must occur to the minds of every hon. member, that railways must and would, under any circumstances, be constructed in Ireland ; and hence he believed the money proposed to be expended by the government on the works they contemplated in n Ire land, would follow the course of the amount expended under Sir Henry Parnell's commissison. (" Hear, hear " from Lord G. Bentinck.) Thus far he (Mr. Chaplin) went most pleasantly with the noble lord, the member for Lynn ; but here he regretted to be obliged to leave him. (" Hear, hear," and loud Lighter.) Here he left the noble lord, ex cept so far as again to thank him most cordially, as he be. lieved the country at large would thack him, for the boldness, the enterprise, the zeal, and the ability with which he had brought his proposition before the house and the public. (Hear, hear, hear.) The ground he (Mr. Chaplin) was now about to take, he was well aware was a tender one ; but be trusted the house would not think him unreasonable if he adopted it. He was averse to interfering with private enterprise, and there fore he believed that the government would be able to carry out a part of the measure of the noble lord vastly more to the benefit of Ireland and the country at tarp than any private enterprise. The government, by undertaking works under this measure, would have an opportunity of employ ing those whom they pleased—they could select the districts most oppressed, and might tura their labourers from rail way works to agricultural employment, and then bringthern back again to railways, when not required in agriculture. (Hear, hear.) As to fears with respect to the financial state of the country, he could only remark that the govern ment held the key which would control the works to be undertaken, and so regulate their progress as not to damage this country, while they would materially benefit Ireland. In Ireland it was allowed on all sides that the pressure was great, and it could not be denied that the noble lord, the member for Lynn, asked for a large expenditure in that portion of the nation. No man could doubt the efficacy of these railways in Ireland and their productiveness of immediate and permanent benefit to Ireland; and he hoped that the qualifications he had mentioned would induce the government to adopt the measure of the noble lord, so far as to commence the works, and, having so done, he was quite sure that they would have certain and ample competition both is Eng land and Ireland to take the works off their hands, and thus to develop the resource , which Ireland possessed. All that would be sacrificed would be the interest on the capital ad vanced during the execution of the works—that amount would be neutralised by the saving of the legal and parlia mentary expenses which now attende d the obtaining an act of parliament. 'There were instances of railways constructed in America at less money than the legal and parliamentary expenses of procuring a private bill. In conclusion, b.e hoped the house, when it came to disposie of the details of the bill of the noble lord the member for Lynn, would bear in mind that all practical men in the country would fully and entirely rely on the justice and accuracy of the noble lord's calculations. (Hear, hear.) Sir C. NAPIER had heard no contradiction to the statement of the right bon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that only 25 per cent. of the money would be expended on manual labour for the relief of the poor. (Hear, bear.) Then what description of persona would be employed on the railways? The proprietors would, of course, select the able-bodied and the strong. (Hear, bear.) The right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Hudson) would have a great con cern in these railways—Gaughter —and there could not be the slightest doubt but he, looking to the interests of the 'shareholders, as was his duty, would em ploy the best and strongest men he could find. He understood from gentlemen connected with Ireland that the labourers there were not able to work from weakness, and the result would be that experienced and able men would be sent for to England. (No, no.) He said yes. (Lugh. Blame had been cast on the landlords of Inland; but he did not think they deserved it. The hon. member for Inverness alluded to the differene conduct pur sued by the landlords of Scotland; but the circumstances of the two countries were different; for the landlords of Scot land had their estates comparatively unencumbered ; and the people of that country were more energetic, and more easily managed. But if the landlords of Ireland neglected their duty, let the government pass a poor law, and such other laws, as would compel them to do their duty and afford relief to the suffering people. (Hear, hear.) Mr. HUDSON said he would not attempt to reply to the personal observations winch had been directed towards him, feeling it sufficient to ',Mow that he had been actuated by the purest motives and single-heartednees—the benefit of his own country and Ireland—in supporting the present mea sure. (Hear, ties t.) The gallant admiral said that if the present measure • was sanctioned, he (Mr. Hudson) would have a promine.nt part in conducting the undertaking. The calls on his e; Ate and the responsibility already imposed him, w.oulre be a imfficieut excuse to him for declining to embark this undertaking. (Hear, hear ) His advice and infor nation would ba readily and gratuitously given, bat as to 'having asingle share, or taking any interest in the underte . ningbeyond that, he did not mean to have any. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Those concerned in seaway specula tiOag had beenunoensmonionalycalled a parcel oiSpessisters, bat he could answer for himself, and he believed sitars, that they had not entered into railway specalslisms far the edurposes of gain merely brat from publiemotime. (Laugh ter.) He would now addrem himself ta the arguments right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Soule Muse and the right bon. gentleman the member for Porsemenik The two main points united by the Chancellor of the Rubsimer, in contrad icti on et the statements of the noble toed the member for Lynn, telated to the amount of money that would be expended in labour, and the number of men that would be employed. The right hon. gentleman said that only 25 per cent., or 1,009,0001., would be expended in labour; but as the companies were to give 1,000,0001. for every 2,000,0001. advanced by the government, his esti mate upon his own showing ought to be at least 1,100,0001. (Hear, hear.) lie (Mr. liudion) would show that, instead of 1,500,0001. out of 6,000,0001. being expended in labour, 4,000,0001. would be expended. He would take the North Midland, the average cost of which was 40,0001, per mile. The purchase of land cost 5,0001. ; the perma nent way cost between 5,0001. and 6,0001. ; the parliamen tary expenses, 2,0001. What, he would ask, became of the remaining 27,0001. ? (Hear, hear.) It was expended in labour. (Hear, hear.) He would next take the York and North Midland. That cost 23,0001. per mile. The pur- ' chase of laud cost 1,8001. ; the permanent way oat 5,5001. What became of the remaining 15,7001. ? It was expended in labour. (Cheers.) The Leeds and Bradford ami 33,0001. ; the parliamentary expenses and permanent way were 10,0001. ; the purchase of land between 5,0001. and 6,0001. ; leaving 17,0001. fur work and labour. ( Hear, hear.) It might be said that was a large consumption of bricks. The average for bricks did not exceed 600/. per mile. (Hear, hear.) Who, then, could doubt the statement of the noble lord, or who not believe that the right hon. gentleman was grossly misinformed (Hear, hear.) With regard to the number of men employed, the right hon. gen tleman said that not more than from 25 to 30 persons were employed per mile. Iris hon. friend the member for Lin coln (Mr. Collett) could inform him that 130 men per mile were employed on the Holyhead line. (Hear, hear.) The right honourable gentleman the member for Portsmouth, who seemed to have been consulted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, rook another department, and discussed the question of raising the money. The right hon. gentleman said it was with great reluctance he asked for a vote of 5,000,0001. in 1830. That ought not to be a subject of wonder at a time when the system of railway enterprise was not understood, and tested as it was now, end more particularly when he recollected that he had not a full ex chequer, but, on the contrary, had a deficit of 1,400,0001. (Hear, hear.) What was the state of the bullion in the Bank of England / There were only 4,000,000/. in it. (Hear, hear, hear.) Yet the right hon. gentleman who, under these circumstances, asked for a vote of 5,000,0001., now schooled them for asking 16,000,000!., which was to be laid over a period of four years. (Hear, hear.) The present question was one on which he felt strongly, and had thought of for a length of time, and if the present measure was passed, he was convinced it would be one great means of raising the social condition of Ireland, and giving to that distracted country ;peace, contentment, and happiness. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, told them the security wes worth nothing. That was a most unfortunate expression, and he did not think it was a prudent one. (Hear, hear.) He did not think, whatever the right hon. gentleman thought of the measure, that he ought to have published on his authority that the undertaking could not be advantage ous to the proprietors. (Hear, hear, hear.) If any part of the debate was to be regretted, it was that part of it. He (Mr. Hudson) felt so strongly on the matter, so perfectly safe did he consider the investment, if assisted in the manner he proposed, that he would almost pledge his whole property to the government that, if properly ma naged, net one sixpence would be lost. (Hear, hear.) He qualified that statement by assuming that an indiscriminate encouragement would not be given to railroads, but a judi cious selection would be made. (Hear, hear.) He had no doubt that then these railroads would be productive of good to the country and advantageous to the parties interested. ( Hear.) He had heard no objection to this measure except insecurity. It was unfair to represent that it was brought forward in opposition to the government proposals. The object of one of the measures of the government was to improve the waste lands of Ireland. To begin at the right end they must first construct proper roads—(hear, hear)—and with these lines of railway they would drain the waste lands at half the cost which would otherwise be involved, (Hear, hear.) He thought the government would ,have no difficulty in obtaining the money. Long ago, in connexion with , different companies, he had raised a capital of 10,000,0001. in one week;—(hear, hear)—in that case 10 per cent. was called up, and within six days not 25,0001. (as was under stood) was left unpaid. (Hear, hear.) In this country there were large sums of money which could not be invested in any but government securities, and there was always • large sum of money to be applied in that way. It was his belief that, if the government were to ram the whole amount at once, the funds would nor vary 1 per cent. inconsequence. (Hear, hear.) Ireland had bean a con stant source of anxiety to this country ; government after government had gone on cobbling and spending, and had never attempted to open up the resources of the country—(cheers from the opposition benches) —they had now as opportunity of doing so, and he was satisfied that if the opportunity were embraced, instead of beieg • source of anxiety to the minister of the day, Ire and would be one of his strong arms, and he would be enabled to reduce the military establishment, and to raise the condition and character of the whole people. (Cheers.) None of them knew anything yet anent Ireland; Ist means of ready access be afforded, and there were very few members who would not visit that country once or twice a-year. (Laughter.) He believed that if the measure bad I been left to be judged of by the members for Ireland—if, inatead of being legislated upon in this country, that it had taken place in Dublin—there would have been an unani mous expression of *pinion in its favour. (Hear.) What an argument it would be for the repeal of the union, if they refused to entertain a question on which tee people of Ireland were almost unanimous?--(hear)--when , too, they found men of the greatest practical experience, including his bon. friend, the member for Salisbury (Mr. Chaplin) declaring that the measure could be carried out with perfect security to this country. (Hear. bear.) As regarded the question of security, he could not help observing that, in any event, I the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have the security of the rails, which would amount to 5,0001. per mile. (Hear, hear. and laughter.) He had no hesitation in speaking with confidence as to the effect on the money market, and as to the productiveness of the lines. Why there was scarcely a railway in England at the present time, which, however ex pensively it might have been constructed, was not remunera tive. (Hear, hear.) The railway system was much better understood now than some years back ; and they might depend upon it that, with the knowledge now possessed, these lines would prove productive. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had spoken of able-bodied men. He could assure him that on a great many railways there were boys employed whose age varied from eight to fourteen or fifteen. Even if the employment were confined to the able-bodied, it would sandy be a great advantage to lessen the number of those employed on the public works. The right hon. weir man objected to the clause giving to parties who bad WA money the option of receiving it back. He had suggestedl that because he knew that some parties who had lent money to railways might be desirous of withdrawing, in case there were government security, and he thought they should have the power of taking that course ; that was an advantage, not to the shareholder, but to the money-lender. The house looked gravely on the proposal to lend 16,000,0001. ; yet, not long ago, it bad voted 20,000,000/. to compensate a certain interest, for which there was no chance of any »tura. (Hear, hear.) He believed that by this &dean.e erg would not lose one shilling, and he was disposed to pledge his personal security for the result. Be regretted' that the government had felt it to be their to oppose the measure ; they might, at least, have ed it in a mitigated form ; they might have consented to a spent of eight millions instead of sixteen. lie agreed with the right hon. gentleman, the member for Portsmouth (Mr. Baring), that railway speculations had been well left to private enterprise, and they only now called upon the go vernment to assist private enterprise. He looked first to securing to the government their outlay, and next, to se curing railways for Ireland ; and although he believed the measure of the Chancellor of the Exchequer might have been successful in constructing a few lines, it would still have left a large district of country without railways. He was confident that the measure before the house would, if carried, hapeove the social condition of Ireland—she would be for it—and it would benefit both countries. Although government opposed the bill, he thanked the noble lord apposite (Lord J. Russell) for the courtesy and kindness with which he had received it. He had no personal interest in the measure, but nevertheless wished it success ; he was, however, content with the throne on which he sat. (Much laughter.) Mr. GOBLET:RN was not one of those who wished to depose the right hon. gentleman from his throes (laughter), and still lees was he anxious to blame him for any part which he had taken with reference to the measure before the I house. He admitted that the right bon. gentleman was a great authority upon railway questions, and he would evil tingly bow to him on all points of detail, but he deduced from his argument the strongest reason for opposing the measure. The right hon. gentlemen said he had succeeded 'in establishing in England a complete system of railways, managed with economy and success , and he told the house that in the execution of these projects he had no difficulty in raising by voluntary contributions the enormous sum by which those objects had been attained. I That furnished a proof that parliament bad committed no error in trusting these matters to individual exertion, rather than by enormous loans inducing persons to embark in them. Of the total amount of money subscribed for per fecting railroads in Ireland, three-fourths of the whole sum , was contributed, not by Irish proprietors, but by gentlemen of the moneyed interest in England, who were as ready to embark their capital in Irish as in English railroads. (Hear, hear.) He thought it was unfortunate that such , a discussion should have taken place, as it was impossible to avoid stating circumstances which might throw doubt on the success of railways in Ireland—but those only were respon sible for the consequences who brought forward such • mea • sure without considering the effect which it must have on the money market of this country, and without its having received that attention which ought to have been given to a bill of so much importance. (Hear, hear.) In a pecuniary point of view it was a question of no trifling character. (Hem, hear.) The bill called for an advance of sixteen millions of money ; but who could suppose that even such an enormous expenditure would relieve this country from the obligation imposed upon us of providing for the necessitous and sterviz o Loglation of Ireland ? (Hear, hear ) Deal with it as they , the question yet remained what would they do with t part of the population of Ireland who were beyond the districts through which the railways were to pins, or who might be incapacitated by age or infir mity ? With respect to these, they must of necessity recur to the measures the government had called on them to adopt, thus incurring • tremendous expense to be added to the ex penditure of sixteen millions which this bill would authorise. And when the right hon. gentleman who last spoke taunted I the late Chancellor of the Exchequer with having been ready in 1839 to lend five millions towards the construction of rail ways under very different circumstances at a time when there was a deficiency of a million and a half in the public revenue, it must not be forgotten that the financial embarrassment with which they would soon have theea would in all probability be infinitely greater than financial embarrassment of 1639. It was argua,n, by the right hon. le ge t n o tl t ezan u it u h e at those who however, He believed tha t il4ltwedTrtLinsensib recd t where they wera gradually and consider. :a one s t ip h p is re. va l ue of railways more t ' llanlln w Ull' could not fail to confer the ratt l y introduced , and were no b t ut u t n h d e u r l . y .i s ti n o d , u he nn t lt , u u ral w l as y gr fo rtest in be to ne e fi x ts i t ‘ a l C i u thnetr Y y, se enterprise, and that if we did, anent to which there would be h gentleman said that this—that we should n. a v er "' tat° from the p rioot e le o f son-interference with price we should produce emharras. no limits. (Hear.) The righ.' the whole success of reassess ds tsended on the economy of their management, and the way in which they were worked. Now if one position was more true thi`ts another, it was that it was dearer to deal with borrowed main ytie with your own. And what were the probabilities oft Oas of the lines in Ireland ? The Kingstown Mawr-7 ;two been owe fairer criterion of the profit which might be esiPti, led from the tinned ; but let him cite the case of a line whi ' h p resented a working of these schemes. The line from Beds. to to pron. heda ran through a flourishing country, and het connected with it every clement of success. The shares* its that line were 751. shares, on which 701. had been paid. Et. 'w what did these shares realise in the money marks*. Oaly 581. (Hear, hear.) The honourable and la trued member fur Newark had been very anxious to ink, 'rest on the house the difference between lending money .'red emending money, and he had laid it dawn as a principle& it money burrowed by the state was not the money of the stint • He (Mr. Goulburn) would set enter into a discussion of in& niceties of that distinction. The hon. and learned memlsr had referred to America, and had applauded the system of the United States in borrowing money for the construction of railways. If the hon. member meant to say that this country was to pursue with respect to these railways the example set them by the United S:atisi then indeed he could understand what he meatst by the distinction that " the money borrowed by the state was not the money of the state." (" Hear, hear," and mach laughter.) But he hoped the hon. member and his friends did not go quite so fur as that. (" Hear, hear," and re newed lanchter.) Nothing, however, was more clear to him than that if they borrowed money, intending to repay it, they must impose on the public an annual charge for that purpose, at least until such time as the railways proved productive. He (Mr. Goulburn), however, must confess that the san guine anticipations of the right hon. gentleman as to the success of the railways had been not a little damped in their effect on him by his after observation. that at the end of 30 years, if the railways were unprofitable, the Chancellor of the Exchequer could sell the rails. (Shouts of laughter.) To suggest to the Chancellor of the Ex chequer to become a dealer In old iron as a means of compensating the country for its leases by this plan was certainly an imagination worthy the right bon. gentleman. Of all things, it was, in his opinion, molt dan gerous that this country should engage in a scheme of this sort, and should embark systematically in a plan of raising money by loan in time of peace. Once begin the system of superseding individual energy and enterprise—once com mence lending loans fur railways, and they might be called on to do the same thing in cases equally specious and promis ing—equal advantages, which would bring them, in the end, to this, that they would be always employing their surplus revenue in private speculation. As to the relief of Irish distress by this measure, he thought they would all agree that the right hon. gentleman had failed in showing that any relief would be produced. The very' sys tem under which the railways were to be assisted. precluded the possibility of relief being afforded. Those railways were to be assisted which promised the best chance of return. Inquiries were, of course, to be made as to that point. Com parisons had to be instituted. The very time occupied in these investigations, wou d preclude the possibility of any immediate relief being extended. On these grounds, there fore, he gave his opposition to this bill, and should vote for the amendment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. On the motion of Cul. CONOLLY the debate was adjourned till Monday. NAVIGATION LAWS. On the question being put, nominating the following hon. gentlemen on the select committee on the Navigation Laws : Mr. Ricardo, Mr. Alderman Thompson, Mr. Ilume, Sir Robert Peel, Mr. Milner Gibson, Mr. Hutt, S.r George Clerk, Mr. Brownrigg, Mr. Bright, Mr. M'Carthy, Viscount Sandon, Mr. Brown, Mr. Lyall, Mr. Mitchel, and Mr. Thomas Baring, Mr. WAWN objected to some of these names. Lord J. RUSSELL could not see that it was an unfair committee. Major BERESFORD said that he had no doubt of the desire of the noble lord to have a fair committee, but he could not help saying, that when he came to read the names of the hon. gentlemen proposed to act on it, he could not conceive that it was eitber just, fair, or honest. Mr. HUTT said that hon. gentlemen seemed to think that every member who voted for free trade must be in favour of the total abrogation of the navigation laws. Lord GEORGE BENTINCE said that he was sure that his noble friend (Lord John Russell) meant nothing more than to give a fair committee to those intere.ted in shipping. But it appeared to him that out of fifteen members eleven voted for an inquiry into the navigation laws. Lord J. RUSSELL said that the noble lord's objec tion woo that those who voted for an inquiry into the naviga tion laws were desirous of a total abrogation of those laws. His opinion was quite the reverse. On this committee there were four who certainly would uphold the navigation laws, no matter what they may he—(laughter)—there were four more who made up their minds that they ought to be en tirely repealed, and there were seven whose decision it would be difficult to prophecy. (Laughter.) Mr. FERRAN]) said that, after what the noble lord had admitted about the composition of this committee, ho re quested that nothing more might be said to him (Mr. Fer rand) as to packed committees. After a few words from Lord J. MANNERS, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER proposed that the nomination should be postponed until Mondm , by which time some progress towards a proper understanding might be made. This suggestion having been adopted, the nomination of the committee was postponed until Monday. The house adjourned at half-past 12 until Monday. 7: he 461:13effSg. MAILS. ----• The nulls for Vigo, Oporto, Lisbon, Madeira, Cadis, and Gibraltar. will be made up on the morning of the 17th February. The Wee India mails, including thew for Mexico, Hondo., and the Havannah, will be made up on the morning of the 17th February. The overland rends for Gibraltar, Malta, Greene, the lonian blends, Egrpt, Aden, Ceylon, India, Hong-Kong, and Cliinn, via Southworitott, la be made up on the morning of the 2 , th of February. The overland closed mails, via Marneillee, to the Mediterranean. Egypt, Aden, Ceylon, India, Hong Kong, the., will be made up out the evenaut of the 211th February. The mails for New Routh Wales, Van Diemen's Land, and New Zealand toll be made up on the evening of the let March. The mails for British North Amerka, Bermuda, and the Ceded States, will be made up on the evening of the and March. The malls for the Brasile, the River Plate. Manta Video, Perm.- buco, Bahia. Madeira, and Buenos Ayres, will be made op on the evening of the Ith March. TO CORRESPONDENTS. An Old Subieribor .rill find that the articles to which he alludes we invariably ted in oar prices current of produce. Advertreme quo nts intended for The Express, Londonewillnit pager. most be at the Mee by Two o'clock on the day of pabileatice. 111011 WATEI AT LONDON-BRIDGE. Tato D o —llordar. 0 WA. put 0 ; Altera*" 21 min. put O. To.blowtow —Mania& 49 dz. pot 0; Alterman, 16 min. pia 1. LONDON, SATURDAY, FEB. 13. IN the House of Lords yesterday Lord Mon- EAOLE, on moving for returns relative to the division of baronies in Ireland, expressed a hope that if any bill came before their lordship', involving a departure from the electoral division, or Duke of Welling ton's clause, as it was termed, their lordships would give it their most attentive consideration. Lord BaorGitsu highly approved of the clause referred to by the noble lord, and thought it intolerable that any question of privilege ariaing out of a money clause should intervene to prevent their lordships discussing it on its merits. The Marquis of LANsoOWNE, on behalf of the Dean of Manchester, read a letter from that reverend gentleman, explanatory of circumstances arising out of the debate on the presentation of the petition of the churchwardens of Manchester, pre sented on a former day, on the subject of the Man chester parochial funds. Lords STANLEY, BRoUCHAM. and CAMPBELL concurred in opinion that the subject was one worthy of consideration by a committee. The Brewing from Sugar Bill was read a first time. In the House of Commons, Lord PALMER:no:if, in answer to a question from Mr. ROEBUCK, As to the communication of early copies of printed documents to the daily journala, said, those to which the hoa. member referred, respecting the Spanish merrier. were the house on Thursday, and that it was usually am atter of courtesy that copies should be sent to what were called the ordinary channels of communication. The house then proceeded to the order of the day for the second reading of the Rea ways (Ireland) Bill, the speakers in favour of the motion being Mr. STUART, Sir JOHN TYRRELL , Lord BERNARD, Mr. CHAPLIN, and Mr. HUDSON; those spinet, the Crtaxamo• of the Excemarnl. Mr. H. J. BAILLIE, Mr. F. BARING, Mr. D. Baowslti Sir CHARLES NAPIER, and Mr. GouLtioax, the debate standing adjourned until Monday next. The select committee on the navigation laws was appointed. all i THE great BENTINCIE motion threatens after to ran to seed, or into mere interminable talk, without unseating ministers, or even putting their existemos in danger. The Part. party, which is entrenchiuin.% itself in its, suprnior abilities for finance, and wh certainly has the knack of withdrawing ii, time from fuinucisAi scrapes, could not have countenanced the sixten million freak of Yo England, even thong t.lre Lord Mayor of York a .. • godfather for ins wisdom. ‘ The Irish members are evidently preparing le l" IL THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 13, 1847.