The Express. — London, England, 1847-05-18 00:00:00

------ 'he us a-day if they pleased. All the mils fleeted in former yenta for leeiclative interference no longer Nested, The real day's work now was only eleven boors per clay ( taking into tonsidaration the nine boars of S tturdtty), the work after all, being of a light description, and the rooms in which ' it was pertonost generally comforteble end well ventilated. ' The holidays also were to be eonenued WI before; and the censequenee of eo great a redecoon in tie mien of labour :would be a dimihutiun of enroixth et tee production of the maaufacturts of the c lastly ; he, in tact, believed it would be more. lie could not but look wits great alarm at so great an increase in the nunaher of pride. rs, without a correspondent increase in the anaten. of 00 . 14111111 Th as would be caused by this bill. It was •“d that the increase in prim would permanently cot:epees ste for the inerese'd quantity of labour. But, in hi. opinion, that onion was erroneous. Before they g ire their as. e.t to this bi;l, they should con. eider what would be the indreet . fleet of it. It world lead to a decreased ceouniption of curl, till iw, labour sod ma chine power ; and would &lett:ern Mee aufoutit of shipping necessary for conveying tee es. rooter. I u. this country. All these matte's were overlook.d by thee who merely wished to carry out that which appeared to be, an humane princip e, namely, lire ttor the hours of labour of women and children. Ail these math re a ere, however. of little importance when comp 'reel wits the question of, foreign tempdi:int. It would do very will if they were , monopoles en the quality and quantity of th it manufac tures ; but so far from la ing renriepolisue they had at present very great ditheuity in emp hog with very numerous and', powerful riled.. They at present Aileen:a their machinery, I in which only they excelled, to ho sent to all parts of the world, and they could n-it prevent their beet workmen from going abroad. Russia, for inateuee, at preteut spun as much cotton as stir imported; France imported and spun to • large extent, and .1 eortsd hi r to ot aeonsue to China, and other distant pease! the ueive tee Tlois bid would materially, affect their staple article of menet:mere. We re they then at this moment prepared to try a re•lt exemirne•nt ' It was said that their business was with the operetives, and it was said that they were willing to give up in certain portion of their wages adds bid were ear. ied. That ho did not think to be the case, but his impression our that the operatives were labouring under We dounum that if the it work was , limited to tin hours, they would, neeenheless, get the twelve hours' wages. If the pi ieeiple was a right one, why should they confine hti that particular sort of boor?le Why • should they not extend it to every branch of inda.try t He ' would ask the noble dukeopploit ' whether he was prepared to support a measure providiug that the work of agriculture' labourers should ho limited to ten, or soy other number of 'bolus ie a day? • The Duke of RICHMOND—I would rapport it If it were proved that one half of the agricultural lob .uteri died frosts the effects of caressive labour, as was the case with the Labourers in factories. (Cheers.) • The Earl of CLARENDON —lfe.• hut that was 1111 assumption. lie thought that the noble duke had not given • proper answer to his question. as to who th r be would like to have a law pessed rendering it penal tor a lahourer in the harvest time, for instance, to work alter actresses time in the day? He would beg their lordsei pi so cenaider what would be tho effect of this bill on the (+wetly's'. They must at certain portions of the year have • ci Paden of work, end at , other times there would be age at demand it r labour; and he would ask them if it were well or just Milt thee they should say to those men that they should not earn wages or make provision for the time at whites they expected to be idle. The time of great demand would sometimes come when these short hones of 'enter would be of the utmost disadvantage, as well to the laeourer as the employee and consumer. Ho admitted that it was their duty and interest to promo'e the comfort of the labouring dries, but their lordships mieht rely on it that the labersey claws would not receive this as a hem, wet elide Illy he • drives to intellectual improvement bye law Wllial 11111314811 • their wages. There was not a man in tithes her of pare learnt who would not wish to be mere swim, more reli gions, or more intellectual, and yet nut one of dam woad loss one-sixth of his income in order to gain that tadventege. (" Hear," and laughter.) The uoble earl ersinded by stating that the labourer would neat arida say reran as a benefit which curtailed his menet resat al , The Bishep of OX FORD said thathomerlass=dr hones at so late • period of the night, had be our alPilm desire on his mind to endeavour to err the Ineriate i a bad been brought forward by his mere and Irma Mad opposite, as well as the nettle and wise had just eat doers, . . against this measure, and to drum re simple ground cm which he founded the vote whir be reseed to give that 3 " I night in favour of the noble lint who heward this motion. It seemed to him that sir epadtks tore motion • had been founded in • very reemerelde degree ma a number of untrue eser.ions. It had her Akan for prealed in the first place that they were remaing the riot of lorring the operieives ; and in the next, that they were going to force am the master manufacturers a measure which would de prive them of • greet part of their intone. Would their lordships recollect that one third of that body had wd. tired their lordship,' house in favour or the bill? (Hear, hear.) It wee • mere assumption to say, r was s aid by the noble earl who hail ju.t sat down. that labourers' wages would be sunk one sixth bemine the work ing of factories would be sunk one-sixth in the week. What , was the tree view to take on the subj . , ct ? Instead of being • prohibition of labour, taking the whole y. ass round, it . ' would be, he maintained, only • providon against a vast deal of uncertainty. The long period of working ark day was only the effect of a great desire on the pert of dour manufacturers when an order was made , to ear it them selves, instead of sharing the benefits with others— (hear)—thereby adding, resit the idle time came, to the exiMing commercial distress, instead of keeping up a conti nuous strain of work by meeting the demand befinehaed. and giving an average rate of labour. Tor lordships Mould consider what were the expenses necessary to be gone • through before the manufactured article was completed. The 'firet expense was in the production of tee rat material in the country in which it was produced; the mit was in bringing it over to this country ; thee cam the ewer to- bei invested in the machinery to manabenue it; and next the espouse of exhort. The manufacturer required in this way to make 21 per cent at the lowest on the capital inseam' to pay Lim. He got five per mut. intermit for his money, all the rest was for wear and tear of ma chinery, oil, coal, light, and gas. It les then only with the Beeper cent. fa his money that they were goiog to meddle-- to incense the expenses of the manufacturer—because in all the rest they dimenehed rather than increased the expenses; thea so far from doing the manufocturer a direct injury on the whole, they were on y giving bite back that • which he lent in the first insetuce. It was said by the noble earl who had just sat down, and also by the noble lord opposite, that they were about to pass ' a =assure on the strength of a delusion which they led the labourers under, that they would mei ire twelve hours' wages foe tea hours work. He put that subject before certain ope ratives, and the answer which ho received was, that that was the argumeut of Lord Brougham, and that there was no thing in it. (Laughter.) Teat showed that it was not so wholly a new proposition, and that they heel studied and • considered the matter. What was their answer to the question whether they were willing to receive lower wages at a reamed amount of time? The rep.y was that they were not only leather, but rejoiced. The noble earl who had just spoken was suddenly seized wits a regard for foreign . competition, to which he had been hitherto all utter strang.r, and the noble lord opposite (Lord Broterhatu) stated that flitti 000 bales of goods were annually exported, and that this reduction of labour would he equal to a less of oneuixth of the whole pia of the manutacturera. That was not altogether a new assertion, but it was absolutely untrue; fur it mull not be expected that a body an d mind worn out with fatigue could, at the end of a day's labour, in a close and unhealthy atmosphere, produce an set de equal in quality to that which it could produce in the morning. Ile believed that these last hours were hours in which very little profit Indeed could be made. 'I ho work then performed was known to be inferior in quality to that which was done in the previous part of the day, and was a &swim& on the rest. It was done at • time when failing nature refired go Mg, when t he °pewits had no longer th et a:earner of eye or rapidity of movement, which he p messed in the sewn rtin:fhework itself bore t,stimony to that . exhausted piece of machinery, which could hardly perform the task laid down for it. From a return which he had had *Ade on the subject, it was clearly evident that the #men-hour system, which had been already tried, was it little more profitable than the thireee-bour system. The safety of the present movement bad bee% fully deter. reed by the measuns taken in the same direction. When female labour in cool mines was proposed to be prohibited, then were not wanting these who predicted ruin to both duo employers end the employed; but in all respects these oseettictions had been falsified. With the present question, Meeiteconomy had nothing to do ; ter the riple ha d ready established by tee restri, Cons on the labour of children. All legislation was a continued interference with what was culled the freedom of industry; the perfection of tion was to make no needless interference. The laws prevented • man from raising a building nnsafely, on account of the ii jury which might result to the public • and, on the same ground, Ives ought to be restricted from working their fellow-beings so as to endanger their souls. (Hear.) The rejection of this bill would be attended with great danger ; it would irritate the friar of the work-people, sad excite them to comber den Sc a the castes, who, in their turn, would be &A li oath a result. Such c mloinations now =red • ewer Went; and should they embrace the while MMus mane/enuring population they would present sewn beraidebb aspect than any league that had ever threared • - hostile government. By such a result only NNW cur . maureeteres be driven abroad ; for if an on ter* sr godliest population were suffer, d to grow up eneept et the security for capital and machinery would be lednold. It was highly dangerous to trifle with the morals da whin for the sake of increasing wealth the e *WI he to make the narks poor by d - e-.. l .•ime Ile peopre elt • 1 lard BROUGHAM said: few words in explanation. * i' Lead WHARNCLIFFE said if it we re possible to throw 111 is digit of their protection o ver the la bour of females and wra r b er ;s r . , without at d all . so in . te b r u fe t r:z m with ,i th rt a i l e of men, yams 111111 the only practicable one. As to the effect of f t e b e i: ies the ism he hod no fear. It would not reduce the hours of labour berodl their an rage in other branches of emeufamote and Be trustedlo their rdsbips would, by passing the, s:a an end to the unctrtain•y which had so long The 11140. of St. DAVID'S said, that notwithstanding Übe peitild ti =ts he bad bend on the other side, ha to vote for the second reading adds ri.0r,idu..tb,,,,, , ..k., ittthiemp, ,, y , ilwooelfa" a illell that could be presented to a legislature, he gar protest trier the 111111C7ti011 that this was a swith widest {etiolation ought not to meddle. bear) . eight of such intertlrence had been tial ae rte I rounomy but he contended et tieliticel swee was thus he fty& It arm be said that industry was free. The - noble and learned lord wpodto (Lord Brougham) had ad mitted that the workpeople were at the mercy of their masters. The prevent enesenre was not an *Rosemary ImCrence, but wholesome sad peeper regulation. Great attention was dee to the almost unanimous expres sion of the opinion of the working men, who pee enteed the utmost intelli g ence on the subject, and who had canvass d all the o retires that could be raised. Lord ASUIIURTON semi that after the speech of Ids noble friend at the head of the Board of Trade, he did not think it neceseary to trouble their lordships at any length. ' In his judgment the question was whether the manufacturen of this country, regard being had to the foreign competition to which they were expesed, could survive the effects which this interference with than would produce. Could the muter nrinufecturers endure these restrictions proposed to be put upon them ? if nor, thosi great branches of trade would be destroyed, and great manes of the population would be thrown by thoussuds into the mine mass of destitution as that which the poor Irish labourers were now suffering. So much for the humanity of injudicious legislation. The great otsjectieto he had to this measure was that he thought they were proceeding to legislate upon a most important question with lens information, with regard to it, than was usually afforded in reference to the commonest and least im. portant sts , jects. It was said that the great mass of the operatives were in favour of the restriction of the hours of labour. Notwithstanding the •11001111U133 which bad been passed upon their sagacity and intelligence, he did nut tnink they were competent judges of the ques tion; and though it was also said that the manufacturers were of the same epistle°, he should have preferred if their lordships bsdgo.,e into some sort of inquiry into the subject, with a view to ascertain the real state of feeling. He could only say that Mr. Marshall, of Leeds, had done hint the honour to wait open him, to state the grounds upon which he hoped he would oppose this bill. The bishop of OXFORD—Mr. Marshall wished to make it an eleven instead of a ten hours' bill. Lord ASIIBUR MN resumed—That ens the very circum stance which induced him (Lord Ashburton) to desire further information on the subj. et, and an opportunity . of sifting it thoroughly. If he saw any indication of an intention to make this an eleven hours' bill when in committee, he should vote for its second reading ; but in the absence of any such indication, he should vote in lemur of the amend moot of his noble and learned friend (Lied Broughnos), that the bill be r. ad a see and time this day six menthe. • Their lord hips divided—For second reading-- Contents dl Non contents ll-42 The bill wrs accordingly read a second time • and the house adjourned at twenty minutas past twelve o'elhik. HOUSB OF OONlMONB.—Mormair. MAT 17. PRIVATE BUSINESS._ _ _ no &MAUL ta . ;l;;Zarr7ttour Vial. PETIRWRIL-11 Mr. Liam, has s Ibis to DasetAirs, ass pianist as assist et ths Ner.law ael la Asa SOAR 12.11ADD40.-11abtaks sad tweetsilla Ilasismisa lam. autatimm—iwilasisom of VIM% Sis (essibsl); Harttabis Stsatess *DM (sword); Bargees Tenure Mods* ; Crown aertses uro i Ts. ilastsd Aar ) ; 1p M Silk. as Estates Debt ; Orminsielal GU LW art dig Osgspay; Dolga sot Balsa Juswiss nil Rasa Brush she.); D ars; Dobai l Drssigils Ildlissy Pardissasf Ns= lark s h e.);risidlk led sig insitrillsa Railwa (D y ; wallinallawariagnsarta; Ross. Owed* RalAway (1uil" Whams, sal Driaaras Passigns) ;. Mrs* Oman Solway Estershralisiden= lard, is) ; Rut IMsalashlre Railway ( ma 'sates. sad lamb to DEM Orbasby sad asasidJaastlisll•ll sterfasby); Edishassla rod fiesser, Ilsalard sal Kirlisillissh, sad Saarsra Rallways Assiarnsfassi. Oda, wr U gra lassios itailsay Ingaska; Pahrolls Walerwss* ; Oirraw. 11101 sod, sod Nesbasa abut llisilway ••• amps Dwildrias k r i t Chubb Railsrut . , mien IlMarass*, sad ay (Na. 1); sod Aram= Raw* Arr ieN siali. ant, Desisting% saillssairs); hisses, lair!sy sad Railway Wombs at Post Oiss) ; USW , Mar& sea Maw ark Ruhr* (Assubseat art ftwaSsi te us tar, MOW, 10 - asorasok, and Ayr, the Oirssw Mantra& sad elks" and the Waspy, wrath**, sad LOllltrir Rillways, and to Dough Pita) ; D r ai V ihio raii .7, 7 , . . . Ayr *away (No. 2): biasses., Kibastassk, ad Ayr Rahway, and Ayrshire sad Bridge of Was ( Ns. 3); Drat hoer Palawala Railway Great rants awl ears Rallis* Itslarlsa (Pastarilastoa t Tulla ass=4.l*rsasit Roslyn* sad Hsrboar (AllariMas oar lisodhaev ; gad Binning:ism sod Nag* Millsdialss madam RAI , say ; Ilsellia Sanwa ( Tarawa Nalessiss); Nadia Iti r l . .; , :z (*so* less W to the Nandi liatssess st sus sad limy St. 's Railway, sal NS pnismail theta* sad Rallibra Ralliwas saar Dag) • Pain mil Illaranw blame Mils sad lasprawasisat) ; Yaisksy, awl Harlot lam; Payees Meats AsSysswati se. rawd Road (Me. S', ; lion, DOONIEM sod tart it Diarist , Re= e llasswa Or i OSffron MAIM 'WM; 111111,47 ; Walisfiskl hags; Wantsslss ; W=sol Lost* Rahway ; Webs. dust and; Wald. w 1 *ws &A. ; Tart lasswoosest, Leadsl lielass art Apprcerea Ws pugs Ousaisassa.—delhat Taft amid MAW,; Doblis Ow gasses tiss, Disarm Ups% its, Anstussistlna Its=Dlsispar, ha. mil Ayr Sassy. No. 4 ; bodes amp lliwats (What* Glebe) Eats* ; Elie laspessasnat; = 1 gatbai. Ob. - - - TIMM 1111DiN63-261mdmid Dock Campion ma Heeeek mum Da* ; Mask Is Isistsra Cowry (Il l r.r=ey. Wadi ab (for me ths; Oak sad Beams Illeawm ; Oork, ime Poseage Itsliw ,y ; Dtalitlfible Ma 0111ffi Heems; Usloo, ay.., lid-sys Ameloomem; ma Derr liellmy (Weymouth enalk); Oda PIWILiC BUSINEIM. . . NOTICES OF 31011414 Demean, at the nest alp of the limbo ot Tbsina Bill, to Wet terwed the ea eat ef the winds. tat, in 'themes he Is mania spored= ea de power deem. Pastra.-31r. emmatie, an • Man &Nees* the Pint Leader the Theme whether he town rite the me et Goer fa ontdit as. nthisteres Basaorroio Soma —Behr Lathemom a there day, to reser arum nest art ma of the rearehlag serelee. lataaor Diryte=abletPlas eta theme doe. to mese be the Doe. --Ur. esenthes le kiethethethermedrywooinate =l"re areal thede theinth as ZlZ 'rut" , lar =" l7 the of womere net bathe baited audirmass-os RAILWAY BILLS. Oar. FITZROY sew toms.% In pursuance of recline, "That it is expertise" lerefli fer the remainder of this meth the stantathe sear whist' precludes committees on railway groups from trfrk%a their reports to the bottle until the reports oo the estheal lanes comprised in the group have been laid herore them by the railway cuounisidui.ers.' The hon. tie tuber raid that this imports of the commissioners were usually m. re brevisme of*, out, containing certain state ments as to the beanie the company applying to parlia ment, and the money georeed to be seised; and yet the commitiON, after he eR the evidence, eery compelled to adjourn cur a week or a bemuse the report of the railway cnenmis.ioners had inn been resented. The eornitai!. tee of which he was charms was in the position described. The railway legislation of Behoves w u in that respect most anomalous. If it were iateeded that the report of the cote missiooere ehuu'l intimates that of the committee, it was a mere waste of time sad .easy fed the committee to sit. (Hem , hear.) Considering the late period of the session. and the expense to which many parties were put by the existing re guletion, he hoped the house would consent to suspend the standing eider. Mr. STItUTT avowed the house that no paint had been spared to prepare the commiaionere reports in time fur the committees, but such was the nature of tae investigations that it was iinpissible to avoid some delay. The commis sioners had endeavour. d to carry out the wakes of the house by laying b. lure it precisely the financial position of the se veral companies, and the powers which they proposed to take ; and though it might be true that their reports had not ma terially influenced the decision of the committee, it must nut be seep...it that no good had been effected. In many C.lBOl where improper po eers bad been introduced into a bill, the parties had seceded to the objections of the comn.bsionen withdrawing them, and those pervert had not been claim. before the committee. Companies had coins to parliament asking for powers to construct a railway, and at the same tines fur powers not merely to sell it be its completion hut to sell the actof parliament itself. (Hear.) Application had also been made Em an unlimited power et' raising c ipital, for the purpose of subscribing to certain rail. wept and large companies, coming to parliament fur diffe rent bills, and asking ter the necessary powers of raisieg moiety, had, in addition, applied for a general money bill, to raise toe same amount, ao that if the railway bills were re , jetted, the money bill might still be passed. (Sew, heir.) It would be raid, perhaps, that the Howe of cominnits would never sanc tion such a bill as he had Just mentioned: but he could inform the house that in similar ems the house had sanctioned bills for raising money to septraet certain works, though the powers of construction Mel beet refaced or only partially conferred. Another very °rums = ' wait, fur compariee to take power to pumas* • Ws ing to some other company, end to mho the neesseary capital, while a oorreareding thathathisei wee ads In the capital of the eoapay sellieg, mod ammonia,. a lags amount of capital resisiasd ampipmprired. A AlidcJed been pat team* tle Railway Comathelealwa, and in that may s their 'shoves had been bete- Weir In atheism to the • of delay, he wished to ssy;'that he had seamen to that very soon aft r the approttehing meth the emethealeners would be able to lay the greater path atheist mans es the table. Mr. SHAW semplained ef the vast expense thrown upon einapathes by the preeeth arlana; and said that the cum- I skim Ie Valk he beicseid, though they were waiting for them/ether the eimamisstheaes, had actually intimated to the C:lthe dissiden is odds\ tbey would come. (Hear, .3 1 In peke of hat, though set in point of law, the de ashes was seceded. Mr. ELICE. ea ' eureseed hie regret that no reps had been taken he rnesseapilehing the eifeet aired at thresilt the strunkelooare at an earlier prod. There had been sore "'Orris= a nwastroor erg ridiculer in tart: diamtiest, that the very pante" frees whoa they 'oersted had been no ashamed of this that they re. (rained his man thank in committee. Ks bed an let& that the exandsatiene whirs took plow oder the orders of the house were of the 1,1111141.8 .6111111 inspeeterw, and would be of the utmost, 'sloe i.ge the boss to a de "Won. _ . Aq'ter toms forthseeetrepreetton, Cast. FITZROY pewee' to modify his slobs by intro dating the wet& " sew sitting," after the ward "tom =lusts." _ _ . This saggestion sot being seceded to, strangen Iwo or. dered to withdraw, end the house proceeded to a division. For the motion ..... Ageinst it The motion was consequently lost. QUARAN TINE LAWS. Dr. BOWRING asked what new regulations bad been mode foe the purpose of modifying the gnarentine lane ? Mr. M. OLSSON replied that in future, ships from E ris and Purypt were to be admitted under the rune regulations as ships irons Tarter. MILITARY KNAPSACKS. In reply to Mr. W Mr. F. MAULS said that he had examined and inquired into Mr. [Winona's new knapsides mg girdles der soldiers, and he had tmoil thew ationdoi. with stns died that he had not doomedexpeditat to vosomaio= adoption. . In reply to 14r. B. Escort, Sir Cti. OMIT said that it was a het that certain disturb. saes had takes place at Eletlf aad other platen I. Devon- THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, MAT 18,:1847. *ire and Cornwail,lint lay the assive conduct of the local authorities, the diminutions's/la been repressed, and he be lieved there was no FORA wino to their recurrence. ! Mr. NE WDEOLTE asked ens he had moved for some time boa, 11.4 to the r Y t born imported into this country had not beta Mr. M. GIBSON maid the setups were of a very com plicated nature, but es soon as certain replies were ebtained from the Canna% which he expected to receive in a few days, the returns would he perfected and lead before the house. SCHOOL OP DESIGN. In reply to Mr. WALLET, Mr. M. GIBSON said that the evidence respecting certain dissensions which had arisen in the School of Design would be on the table of the bowie in about ten days. GRAIN FOR DISTILLATION. Mr. BAILEY asked whether any steps were to be taken to check the use of grain in distillation ? Tho CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER doubted whether muck good would arise from the interposition of the government er of the house in this matter ; and, on the other hand, to check at present the %Pe of grain in legitimate distillation might give an impulse to illicit distillation. He wished it to be understood that the entire quantity of grain used in distillation being 1,300,000 quarters a year, 1,000,000 quieten had already been consumed in the present year, and 100,000 of the remainder had been worked up ready fur dis tillation ; so that only 200,000 remained to be used, which the distillers had already purchased for the must part. lie had reason to believe that distillation from sugar was about to take place very extensively in the country. Notice h already been given to the excise by several eminent distillers around London of their being alicut to use sugar in the.r distilleries instead of grain, and when it was considered that the difference between the price of sugar and that of groin made a difference of 3d. a gallon in the eon of production, there was clear reason to apprehend that the cheaper mate• rial would to a great extent supersede the other. PROVISIONS. Mr. FIUME asked whether the government was prepared, in the present high price of provisions, to admit foreign pro visions duty fr. e ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. said he bad referred to the Customs' Duties Act, in connexion with the hon. gentleman's notice OR this subject, and he foand that the duties on most of the articles mentioned by the !hon. gentleman had already been - taken off. As to batter and cheese, also, the duties had been materially reduced ; but while the importation had greatly increased the prices had not fallen. WINE TRADE. In reply to Mr. Etir..ail?, ----- Lord J. RUSSELL said there would be no objection to lay on the table of the house the memorial l►tely presented to her majesty's government from the wine traders of Bordeaux. AUSTRALIAN COLONIES. In reply to Mr. HUME, Mr. HAW ES said that the government had long been ma turing, and were now actively pr: paring, a measure which should give the benefit of British institutions to the Australian colonies, Winding, of course, Van Dieman's Land ; but he doabtad=they would be able to introduce it to the premed TRANSPORTATION. ..... Mr. EWART asked whether any change was contem plated with reference to the punishment of transportation ? Mr. HAWES said that a discussion on the subject was about to take place, in the course of which government would explain their intentions respecting transportation. POOR LAW COMMISSIONERS. Mr. FERRAND rose, in conformity with his notice, to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the private defence of the poor-law commissioners to the charges brought against them before the Andover union committee (entitled. ' Letters addressed by the Poor-Law Commissioners to the Secretary of State, respecting the transaction of the bunting of the communion, &c., &c., &c." embellished with the royal anon, and " printed by W. Cloves and Sons Stamford street, for her Majesty's stationery office,") Majesty's been printed and circulated with the sanction of her Mojesty's govern ment? If printed and circulated with the sanction of her Majesty's government, whether he intends the expense to be defrayed out of the public purse If printed and circulated at the public exp.mse, so hether he will lay upon the table of the house a statement of the expense ? The hon. gentleman said that this puerile defence of the poordaw commissioner. contained the moat audacious falsehoods.—as he c oul prove. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought the hon. gentlemau erroneous in terming the defence of the commissioners a private defence, seeing that it consisted in replies made by the commissioners to a variety of questions officially put to them by her Majesty's Secretary of State for the Home Department. It was quite tree that the de fence had been printed and published in the way stated by the hon. member. That had been done. certainly. without the previous sanction of government. (Hoer, hear.) But then it had been the practice of the commissioners, ever since the establishment of the board, to print their reports in a form morn commodious than that of the ponderous blue books, and they had only adhered. to this practice in the pre sent insane. He did not, however, approve of the publics, the of the document without the previous consent of the government, and he should provent the recurrence of such a proceeding. As to the expense being paid by the public, he thought it quite right that the public should pay for the production of what was essentially a public document. The amount of expense was under 101., and he was ready to Me nial the items. RELIEF COMMITTEES (IRELAND). Mr. P. SCROPE wished to know whether the right hon. the Secretary for Ireland was prepared to lay on the table a statement of the operations which had taken place in Iretarsi ander the Temporary Relief Act. That act became law on the 26th of February las', and since that time, it appeared it had remained a deal letter throughent a very large portion of Ireland, to the loss of a great many hundred lives. It was stated, on good authority, that in the union of Bantry, the relief committee had not yet begun to work. The deaths in that district from want, were computed to be about 1,000 a week, so that at least 13,000 lives must have been lost sines the passing of the act. (Fleur, hear.) The question was, who was to blame ? The Irish local papers, in which he found these statements, 'latent d the government, and laid all the blame on the relief committees. He found it stated in the Cork Reporter, that the relief com mittee of Bantry had not as yet completed these preliminaries. That committee consisted of 12 mem bers. In October last he found that two volunteers had gone through the lieu of the destitute in a week, and yet in six we eke these 12 committeemen bad made no P (Hear, hear.) He would read an extract from r r = written by a g ntleman in Bantry, which would shew the amount of destitution in that place, and the necessity there wee for strenuous exertion. It appeared that there had been dug there two lame pits for the reception of such per sons as should have died of starvation. In one 250 bodies had been thrown, without coffins; and in the other 6.53. The pita were opposite Lord Berehaven's gate, and that noble lord, on whole estates these deaths had taken plea, originally sulaseribed 295. a month to the senp depdt, but withdrew it on finding that the amount of his subscription had been published. (Hear, hear.) Never since that time had he been seen outside the locked gate of his de mesne. (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Scoops) had some time since moved for • return of the state of the Bantry workhouse, and the accousta of it were certainly frightleL The medicslinepector sent down by the government fogad the patients In a wretched state, crowded five and six in a bed, without a nurse or any other attendants to give them a drop of water. That was the district in which the relief committee had not for six weeks distributed one farthing's worth of food. (Hear, hear.) It was a most serious matter for inquiry, and he trusted that the right hon. the Secretary f a Ireland would not neglect it. If the parties to whom he had alluded had been guilty of wilful delay, there would set be mach injustice in attributing to them the mime Mantel murder. (Hear.) Ile had heard of fo d riots is five soar des in Ireland, hut he did not much ender at it, if thendief stainutitteos acted generally in the way he had describe& Mr. LABOUCHERE regretted that the hon. ammber for Stroud ..a4 not strictly confined himself to the gaseies which he had given nodes. (Hear, bear.) It wee led)y Mr, be thought, to arks a speech Imes a variety et topics and making heavy champs against as abseat individual. (Hear, bear.) With regard tow sent lewd whom name had been mentioned by the boa. mamba he Strad, he meld cely say that he had had permed saeruisatioa with that noble lord, and. fram the intemeM -be leek is the state M his raiehbourbood and his gee distader be, (Hr. Lahouchere) should be very musk imam* tai Wet that be had acted with inhumanity. (Naar, bee.) Wlkklar gird to the hon. member's Tandem be had tan abbe Om there we now in the p imessisa if Br 1/11111161101114 ra second report of the relief sommimissiess, abbh. Mestbst with the appendix, would famish the Imam with the meet ample information as to the workiat if the act. It was In the hands of the printer, and wadi be pretested in a few days. In the meantime, he was eseb&d that none of the fault of delay rested with Sir San Burgoyne or his brother ono- tunes. (Hear, bear.) They had met with great obstacles, the most . important ef e whleh wee the reluctance of relief committees to administer the act. (Heir, hear.) These difficulties had also been greatly aggravated by the indbposition of the people to accept of re lief in food instead of work on the roads. They (the people) had Iren induced to believe that by resisting the new system, they would force the goeamment to reveries the old ; but he trusted that the firm menner in whisk the Irish gov.rnment had acted would uadeestm them, sod that soon a better spirit would prevaiL He Ousted that whet be had said would supply the place of seen lentkeeed state ment until the production of the report. Mr. SHAW deprecated the conduct of the boa. member for S•roud in making, on the Guth of an unauthorised news. paper report, charges whist the Irish Relief Committee, and also metes% the noble lord whose name he hadi mentioned. He did not believe there was in the mantes a man more anxious to do his duty se a country untlentan then Lord Berebaven. Mr. B. OSBORNE suggested that the hon. member far Stroud might, weber, be seeking to revive a wailing pops. I why among hie constituents, by attacks which were always PM to be popular in that house. (A laugh.) He believed the feet to b., that the Relief Act was in itself a failure, sad that no exertiona of the committees could make it otherwise Sir J. WALSH begged to ark the noble member fee Stroud whether he had communicated with Lord Berehaven prsee,us to making these charms? Mr. P. SCROPE mid he had not. (How, hear.) He trmted time the off-et or hi. statement would bo to produce a satia faevry explanation from Lord Benham. Mr. S O'BRIEN said that in the district with which he was aoqusin•ed in Clare, food riots had token place, and the people had destroyed the soup kitchens. He was amino blame could be attached to the committee. The fact was that the people s'towed the greatest possible repugname to the altered mode of relief. CAPTAIN WARNER. Lord INOESTRE said that in consequence of the obser vations which had fallen from the hoc, end gallant member fee Liverpool oa a farther evening respecting Captain War ads and noterttltstandieg that gauntgauntMembees that aej Was inventions were unworthy *. hither notice im o y f e thehouse, he should take leave to reontrodeee the subject on an early day. (A laugh.) RULES AND ORDERS UNDER THE POOR-LAW. Mr. FERRAND begged, putonaut to notice, to ask the hen. and teamed Attorney-Oeuend the following questions By what authority parliament is invested with the right to &lovas to any person, or bode of persons, the power of mokuitt rules sad orders which shall be so binding and authoritative upon the people of England and Wales as an act of parliament? If pariitmeet as not thus authorised, by what statute can the people of Englaed and Wales be forced to obey, as law, the rules and orders of the poor-law commissioners? If there be no statute, have not all persons committed to prison • for dis •boying the rules end orders of the poor-law commissioners, been illegally deprived of their liberty ? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL apprehended that perils ! ment had an int erent right to delegate such &whinny as was pointed at by the hon member's first question. The point occurred in courts of law when the judges regulated the practide under the tither ty of 'Utak,. The same power was exercised by the ects a-tical c o met itiotare, who promulgated their whim s and r the au•hurity of an set of parliament With regent to the second question, the peple were forced to obey the law by the P. or-law statute. The third quo stiun answered itself, becaua power to commit was given by the statute, and therefore the committals had not taken place illegally. (A !seek ) MR. MO TT. Mr. FERRAND asked the right hon. the Secretary for the Home Department whether the appointment of Mr. Mott to the effi:e of district auditor received the sanction of the poor-law cominiesioners after he hat been dismissed from the office of assistant poor-low commisoioner ? Whether the poor-law commissioner,' allowed hint to hold the office of district auditor at the time t at he was part proprietor of the Haydock Lodge lunatic asylum, or alter the commissiouers in lunacy declared, in their report on the state of the Haeduck Lodge lunatic asylum. Ord Mr. Mott had failed to full! a positive and solemn ph dgo • bich he bad given to the justices of Lancashire, and that ho appeared quite un worthy of the trust, and became most negligent and remiss in the discharge of his fanctio •a? Whether they have allowed him to hold the office of district -sedate( of Lancashire, while. living in the 1-le of Man , out of the way of his creditors • alter he was seized a sheriff's officer, when on his ro ad: to audit the union accounts ; during the time he was a prisoner in Lancaster Cottle, and after a public advents onent appeared in the Times news paper, warning the public no. to ply him money be longing to the proprietor* of the Halal ex Lodge Lunatic Asylum ? Whether he has again absiodueed the diecharee of his duties and left England, although bidding the office of district auditor ? Sir G. GREY said he believed that the hon. member had not quite correctly stated the facts in his notice. Mr. Mott had not been dismissed from the 'Aloe of assistant commis sioner, but left on a general reduction in his department. In a letter which he (Sir Cl. Grey) hod received from the com missioners it w is stated that the district auditors were sleeted by the chairmen and vice-chairmen of the diTerent unions. Mr, Mo t had been commuoi e'er of the district, and no diaqualleation existing against him, his 1131110 was sent in as candidate for the office of auditor 'along with 37 others. Having the majority of votes he woe appointed. The set of parliament did not require in express terms stay sonction of the poor law commissioners with regard to the audit. in, ex cept as regarded the power of dismioel. The commissioners had not refused their sanction to Mr. Mott's appointment, because it did not appear to them that hie connexion with Heydock Lodge constituted any ground of unfitness. As to the third question, the eommissiomers had within seven days received from Mr. Mott en of ciel letter, dated Manchester, and they 'whey, d him still to 1)P raiding in that place. POOR-LAW ADMINISTRATION BILL. Sir G. GREY moved the order of the day for the second reading of the Poor-law Administration Bill. Mr. FERRAND rose to move as an amendment that the bill be read a second time that day six menthe. He was pre pared to prove that the poor-law had been a curse to the country, and a total failure in legislation. S.I far from the go vernment being able to carry Rout, all its provisionshad crum bled into dust. What had been their conduct towards the poor ? that night it wan his intention to *how! (Hear, bear). it wee his intention to show to the house what were the origi nal intentions with which the existing poor-law was brought forward—what had been the result of its operation then-- what would be the effect of the remedy now propcsed—he would then prove that parliament had constitutloually no power to psss such a law, and lastly that the poor of this country had a sacred and inalienable right to relief. The Poor-law Amendment Bill was 'imported on its introduction by men who ware pre-determined to annihilate all poor-laws in thin country, to equalise wages Li the manufacturing dis tricts, and to punish p.overty as a crime. Lord Brouottem proposed the bill, bat before he did so he got a pledoe from 1,111 political p .rales that whichever should he in power nothing should induce them to repeal the set. The chief authority consulted by the froinien of the bill was Mr. Malthus. On the authority of Mr. Malthus, and the information furnished by the assistant-commissioners appointed under the commission for inquiry into the opera tion of the act of El;zabeth, and who well knew the wishes of the government , and what was expected from them, the commissioners in Loadon drew up the dark document on ehich the new poor-law was based—a document so disgraceful, so scandalous, and BO wicked in its suggestions, that the government of tne day in that house, and the Duke of Wellington in the other denied its existence, and it was not until a friend of his produced it that the Secretary of State admitted that he had a faint tee I Ilection of it. 1 hat document recommended that the poot-law comrnistiouers should have the power to reduce bat not to enlarge tee amount of relief given; that out-door relief should be gradually ab ilished; that it sh nt!d bas first changed from money to kind, and then mimed in quantity, and that, con current with this, a reduction in the II it t of the in-door pour should be made. lie regretted to sar th 4 that document bore the signatures of the Bishops of London and Chester, ' and other high rrtoorinies. Lord Althorp in that house pledged hinuelf that some of the moat cruel enactments of the hill should never be enforced ; in fact, that 0.1 did not exist in the measure, though they hod been ranee acted op .n. This bill, which was passed, notwithrandmg 5,500,000 people petitioned against it, he had now shown ; and if he required further proof, he haO it in the speeches of Earl Fitswilliam and other who supported it, was brought forward and carried with the intention of abolishing poor-laws altogether. Mr. Ferrand next re'errd to the correspondent* of certain e Oren menufacturera ( tlr. Ashworth and Mr. Gregg) with Mr. Chadwick, the secretary to the commi.sion, in 1834 red 1835, to show that this measure was part of a disgraceful scheme of the employers to rob the employed of their fair wages. It was well knowa that the law had been faced into operation by the beyonets of the military and the cut lames of the metropolitan police, who had been sent' down into the country specially for that duty. It was well knownthat blood had been shed in the attempt to enforce this law, which all admitted now to have been a failure. Whot had been the operation of the Act? They had attempted to enforce uniformity of practice. They had established an in-door labour te-t, and refused outdoor relief. They had built beanies which they called work houses, and in these beanie. they had confinod the poor like felons, separating husband from wife, parents from children, sending the children miles away, and not even informing the parents of their death. They had reduced the diet to it scale even lower than that given in our gaols—the diet-tables had been drawn up by a man who had made a large fortune ! by Ginning (which meant starving) the poor in the neigh- , hourhoud of London. They had compelled the poor to wear the dress of felons, and refused to alluw them to leave their prison even to attend divine worship on the S today. They bad sold the inmates of the workhouses to the factory masters; and the men whom they had appointed as masters of these workhouses were mmtly disch treed soldiers, sergeants of dragoons, by whom the pour had been oppressed, plan deed, and murdered. He used the word advioally, for it had been declared by may coroners' juries that pour per sons had died in the workhouses from ill-treatment end want of food. He (Mr. Femnd) had seen the bodies I of persons who had been starred to death under this poor-law, and he had attended a coroner's in quest where the jury had returned a verdict of wilful murder against a relieving-officer, and the coroner told them it was their duty to do so, but the man set up as his defence the printed instructions of the Poor-law Commissioners, and set them at defiance. By thole instructions he was wet allowed to go one yard out of his parish to relieve any one, and this poor woman resided only ten yards out of the parish on the other side of a brook. In 1814, the govern ment came down to the house and asked for more stringent powers, and auditors went appointed. Ho had moved for I returns which would show, when they were laid on the table, the manner in which those auditora had conducted themselves. He had now by every post letters whisk showed their arbitrary °ended. He had a letter from the Poor-law Commissioners to the guardians of the Dudley union reprimanding them fur treating the inmates of the workhouse to roast beef and plum podding on Christmas day. In 1815 the hen. member for Finsbury (Mr. Waklev) came down to the house and modes startling statement with regard to the poor in the Andover union—that they we so completely starved that they were living on carrion and fighting for the putrid flesh on the bones which they were ordered to grind—ot least this would not be disputed. Now they were io the year 1847, and where were the poor-law com missioners who had been guilty of this conduct ? It was raid they were to be dismissed frem their offices, but still they were dakmded and jastilled. It could not he because they were innocent, for the public indignation could not have been so roused unless they were eo guilty. Nut only were the! commissioners destroyed but the uniformity of, practice was to be given up. The nght hon. gentleman tte Home Seeretary I said that there was not to be uniformity of practice, but at was to vary according to the circumstances of the country. This then was to boa varying hi•l,• bat could it he expected that the affections and feelings a the people all over Eng land would vary with the provisions of this bill ? He called on the right hon. gentleman to exp sin how it was to vary according to circumstances, when there was such tyranny and oppression. Let the law be defiued, that the people might know what it mart. He had read the private defence of the Poor-law Comatissionen, but it was an ex parte state ment They boasted that during thirteen years of pane cation of the poor th sy had saved a =Oben a year; but of how much of at had the poer been robbed ? They may have saved some of the rates in the math of Eeglead, but what had they saved in the north? Tuns had been rebellion in Weise, outbreaks' in the north, incendisrism in the south; child-murder had increased ; coroners' jerk's re taraieg verdicts of murder against guardians, thereat/1 of the rural police, an increase of 10,000 prisoners ; enlarged gaols, and new ones beat ; the sneions i n the north held rya ry az weeks instead of twelve, winter assizes, and Mr. Justice Coleridge had • made a statement that crime had greatly increased ; and there were cent rel berracas at Binning- NM hi order that the troops might be transmitted with facility all over the country. What had produced all this but the tyranny of the Poor law Commissioners? And the poverty I and distress of the isometry were greater than they bad been ahem the French revolution. These were a few of the pricer they had paid for this law. How long did they think the emetry would submit to it The people were sufficiently awake on this point to make it a great question at the next election. He had made a statement of all these facts and he challenged any one to deny them, and if they could not could it be said that this law was not &Were ? Now what Max the remedwhich was proposed as a peace oaring to the Why people ? the same unoonatitational powers were con tinued under a different form. By the lint clause the power of the poor-law coeasidalionere was transferred to four cabinet ministers, and by the sixth clause two commissioners were to carry into execution the powers which were vested in them all. By the eleventh clause powers were given to summon and examine witnesses upon oath and enforce the production of books, &c. He asked the right honourable gentleman the Home Secretary if ho was going to sanction the same tyranny which.had been carried on for thirteen years • would he sign orders - for the sepa ration of husband and wife and the eale of children to the manufacturers? Übe was, he (Mr. Ferrand) would mit what right he had to do so ? Then they were to throw some of the responsibility on her Majesty, fir, by the 20th clause, any new riles made by the commissioners might be disal lowed by her Majesty, with the advice of her privy oonneil. But who were the privy council ? They were, in fact, the ministers who were to advise her. Then they were to ap point inspectors with the same uneonditutional powers that the poor-law commissioners possessed now, and for conduct ing any special inquiry the commissioners might appoint tome person who must either be a doctor of medicine, a bar rister, a member of the college of surgeons, an architect, or a surveyor, such special inquiries not to test longer than 30 days. (" Hear, hear," from Mr. R sehuck.) Tho hon. member for Bali cried "hear, hear," Did he mean to be an ins lector himself? Heaven grant that he (Mr. Ferrand) might never come under his inspection. Was he to be an assistant poor law colurnissioner,er perhaps president, for there sys no know ing what he might come to: From this tyvannaatolrhom were toe poor to appeal ? To the government ? They were their oppressors. To that house ? Why the government of the day must be backed by a majority there. Were they to appeal to their sovereign ? Why any appeal they made to the crown must pass through the home Secretary, and though he did not say that the present seeratary would do so, yet there might ba home secretaries who, liae the List, would keep back a memorial. But they could appeal to the common law and the British ocestitution. Although the hon. end learned gentleman the Attorom-General had answered his questions this evening apparently very readily; yet he would prove that that house and parliament had sus power to pax such a law, and if they did it was null and void. (" Hem," from Mr. Roebuck.) Locke had laid it down " That the legislature were to make laws not legislators." Blackstone had stated that when the legislature and the executive were combined there was an end of public liberty. Lord Coke laid it down that it appeared by the books that there were cases in which the common law controlled acts of parliament, and they might be declared void when their enactments were against common right, repugnant to reason, and impossible to be performed. Magna Charts said "That none of the comes sloes gained were to be revoked, and if any such law was obtained it was to be void." Lord Eldon, when on his deieh bed, said, " That the poor-law was an unconstitutional law, but it was sure to peas, for anything would miss anything now a days ; that there was no power in the legislature to par such a bill or to enforce it, It mat ters came to that pass there most be a national convention. It was a moat infamous law, and that if parliament did not do their duly with respect to it, the people would do theirs; hut nothing could be done till the country was ready for it." The country was now ready, and if that bill wax passed, they would compel a repeal of it. Lord Wynford and laird Abinger had expressed themselves strongly against the bill. Thera were authorities enough, he should think, to make the hon. and learned gentleman (the Attorney-General) doubt ax to the decision to which he had come. It was the duty of parliament to setthis question at rest. The working population believed that there was no such power in that house. Let the point be argued before the judges in the Court of Queen's Bench, and it would be seen whether they could not decide that there was no power to enforce obedience to such rules. If the poor had a right to relief, he asked her Majesty's government how they could refase to admit that right except an oases where parties had degraded themselves. The hon. member then quoted passages from John Locke and Arch. Ile.cua Paley, to show that the right to relief was Mallen. able. Judge Blackstone &aid no man was so indieent or wretched, but that he might demand to re supplied with all the necessaries of life by the more opulent. Judge Hale said," The set of Elizabeth has reduced charity to a system, and ititergoven it with our very constitution.' Even Lord Brougham had admitted, when the new poor-law bill was being carried through the House of Lords, the right of the poor against the parson grounded on the same principle. If, then, the poor had this right, they could not claim front them any act of vassalage or deprive them of their liberty, as the condition of extending relief. Ile would even go further, and say that if they retused relief the poor had a right to take it. Would the right hon. gentleman, the home secretary, dispute that proposition ? As the right hon. gen tleman was silent, he (Mr. Ferrand) might assume his acquiescence. (Laughter.) [The hon. member then quoted a passage from Lord Bacou, to the effect that where man's necessity made an act compulsory it could not be felony to commit it ; in allusion to which Judge Blackstone said that wield not be the case ix England, where the poor-law of, Elisabeth suffered no one to be in destitution.) The Poor law Commissioners themselves hid taken the same view ; fur they said, " To punish even depredation apparently committed R 4 the only resource against want is repugnant to the common sense of mankind." Now he thought the hones had a right to require from her Majesty's g nernment a statement whether they intended to enforce the new poor-Our on the system which it had been acted upon far the list: thirteen years, with the view of even'ually abo lintiog poor-lawn altogether, or whether they inte atoll to revert tea the principles of the 43rd of Elizabeth? (Hear, hear.) Let it be recollected what Ireland would be. come for want of a poor-law. Even the hon. member fur Beth, supporter as he was of the new poor-law, had admitted that in coder to sere Ireland they must carry out tberejhe principle of the 43r1 of Elis aheth. (Hear, hear, from Mr. it'teback.) Seeing the late Secretary of State fur tee Home Department in his place, he could not help saying that he had within the lest two days received a letter which showed that amongst all the accounts of disgraceful conduct in the Eoigli-h union., there was nothing to surpass the Longrown union, of which the right hon. b,rooet, Sir James Graham, of Netherby Park, was chairman. (Laughter.) This letter was written [as we understood] by the Rev. Jelin Metighan, rector of Newcastle, which was in the hometown union. Amongst other Chien the writer said there had been grog mismanagement in the hengtown union, and gross ne gligence on the pert of the poor-law eommissieners, and there had been many things of a character too much resem bling the atrocities of Andover. The hon. member then i I referred to the defence of the pour - taw commissioners n reference to his own case, which he said was full of I the mat audacious untruths, referring to the nem'ier of inmates in the Bins/fey union at different periods in support I of this assertion. Now, in condo-ion, he would ask the go vernment whether they could doubt that if they were to at tempt to enforce the new p -or law against the rich aid the middle sieves of society, there would be a rebellion within a week ? There was not, on the face of the earth, prevents to the estalei-hment of the new poor low, a more los al, faithtul, obedient, indireri sus c'ess of persons than the poor of Eng land. They had now borne Leis tyranny f r thirteen yearn and he asked how much longer they were tor be subjected to it? There was not the same generous confidence now be tween the poor and the rich as there was before the lam was inoculated wiih the accursed principles of Malthus. They had no right to expect obedience from the poor noires they extended to them equal right., equal lime, and equal liberty ; and the day might come when they would have reason to regret their oppremioe. The hen. member con cluded by moving "that the bill be read a second time this day six months.' Mr. ROEBUCK said it was very esay to preach about inalienable rights, the 43rd of Elizabeth, and the tyranny of the : eew poor law, without at all uneentatiding the subject ; and although the hon. member for Knaresborough had des canted on this subject before the house for two bourn, he (Mr. Roebuck) was prepare] to prove that he had never read, and was in tonal ignorance of, the 43rd of Elisabeth. He wuuld prove, first, the hon. gentleman. better nee ; woroaly. that the 43rd of Elizabeth had not been departed front, and that what was called the new pour-law was a reaction towards the act passed in the reign of Elizabeth. Now the 43rd of Elizabeth was a result of the consequences that followed, from the pulling down of the religious boluses. Tnow houses had been in the habit of maintaining a certain number of poor; in other words, a certain number of poor had been accustomed to come to the doers of the convents and moms Write to obtain the means of introistence. Afier the Refine matron, a number of "sturdy begone" to use the language of acts of parliament, wandered snout the country, and it was upon teat &mown that the 43e1 of Elsa abeth was parried. He bald in his band that act, the see mil chapter of which, after appointing certain pen ins to administer relief, provided, as the moans of affording it, for the "setting to work " all children whose parents were unable to maintain them, and also fez the "'eying to wore" all per-one, married or unmarried, who bad no means of main taining theensoolvel. Mr. %PARLEY Not " setting tra work" in gents. Mr. ROEBUCK said he would meet that observa tion. lle was now about to maintain the right. of the i dus trious poor as against the lazy poor. (Hear, hear.) Pre vious lethal passing of the new poor-law the lazy poor braved the local authorities, They demanded relief (rem the pew farmer, and if he refused it, his stocks were burnt, his ploughs cut in pieets, bin horses indium!. Now what wan done under these circumstances? A *umber of reinshes were united, as it were, into one; the h a il administrative authority was placed at a distance from the lazy pow, and a central authority was established in London, to which an appeal might be made. There were great advanteges con nected with this chance. He recollected r Wang in his youthful deys a poem called, " Ttt • Country Jestice," con taining a description of a dispute between two contending p iriehes respecting the settlement of a pear woman wi h child. This woman lay in while the dispute was still proceeding. Now, the moment a maul same rill was established at Somerset H itaw, the newt anal low and insigeifiatet politician pointed his finger in the three tyrants. The objection was, in feet, an objection td co °Ni trated responsibility —to a central authority nemonnible alike thatto hien% and to public opinion, end but fir that port of I the system not a word of objection, he believed, would have been urged against the new poor-law. He would show that what was blameable in the conduct of the poor-law commis sion had been done in contravention of the law, and in obedience to the try raised out of doors,—that cry of which the how. member for Finsbury (Mr. Wakl.l) wse one of the loudest and ablest supporters. The paneip'e of the poor-law was, that the man who was unable to maintain himself should be maintained by the state. It was for that principle that he (biz Roebuck) had contended on behalf of the Irish poor though in doing ac, be had stood amen alone. But the right to relief did not mean relief toile given to a man whethet idle as inthastsious. That indeed, was the ban. member for linareshorough's mese of the right torched', but it was not the notion either of the law or of common sense. In the ease of the man who was travelling about, it was necessary to have a test of his honesty and industy ; and the law established poorhouse relief. The member for litaresboroueh talked of " the inalienable right to relief." " loaliee.able right !"—wh a t did he mean ? He quoted Puffendorf—an author whom he (Mr. Roebuck) would stake his life the hon. member had never read. (Laughter.) He talked of Vitt. . l—who de works he bad never opened—of Grotius, of whom he would venture to say the hon. member could not tell whether he lived in the time of George 111., Charles 11., Q O O OO Elios beth, or the Emperor Adrian. (Laught.r.) These learned writer, he talked about as if he knew something more of them than their names. He talked, too, of Coke and of Blackstone—though it was evident that I e scarcely knew which was which, and certainly did not know which pre. ceded the ether. (Renewed laughter.) It was riredlessto say that be (Mr. Roebuck) thought little of the boo. mem. ber's authority in matters of learning ; he thought almost,* little of it as be thought of his authority on maters ofte n , mon sense. It was mot long azo that the hon. member pet, liahed a pamphlet, and in it be talked of " the edict of Nantes, which was the consequence el the master, of St. Bartholomew." (Shout.' of laughter.) That " • was one of the proofs of the bon. member's elodiii ee , And uow he came down there to Instruct than about " inalienable rights." Why these " inalienable rights," were, as he himself admitted, emanatioos from the 43rd of Elizabeth. Well, what was the 43rd of Elizabeth ? it we . an act of parliament. And who was it told We hon. member that an act of parliament would confer any rights which my ' other act of parliament could not take away ? coke, or ' Blackstone, Grotius, Paffendore or Vattcl, would my./ them have told him, if he had read them, that an act of parliament conftrring any right was repealrble by another meet parliament, and that if repealable the right cunt:wed wit ant inalienable. (Haar, hear.) But what was the right se eonferred ? It was the right to work. But mid the line, member for Finsbury, " Not in a goal." Did the hon. Member ever visit the co Cage of a poor mon—did he ever ester one—did he ever employ a poor man—did he ever feed 4111 , assist in feeding one ? If he did, he must know that the peer man had a fee more miserable habitation out of the workhouse than that which the law provided for him in it. In his cottage there was no medical relief—little distillers' —no warmth--little shelter. (Oh!) Yee—he (Mr. It *bark) spoke knowingly on these :acts. It was his habit—slay after day—week after week—moath after month—to go into the habitations of the poor. He know a great nutuar of them —he employed a great number of them; and when he heard the member for Finsbury talk of " Bastiles " Mr. WAKLEY—I did not give them that name. Mr. ROEBUCK—Probably nit. That was your weldor imagination. (Laughter.) The hon. member del not give them that name! No—he was only the senile imitator, not the inventor, of the name. But he called the poor house a " gaol." A gaol was a place from whence a=a could not get out until he had undergone trial. A work. house had no such restriction. (Hear, hear.) [Mr. Wakley ; Yen—trial for the offence of poverty.] They heard the member for Finsbury. Now the state offered the poor lama a tat, "Come into the peorhouse " was the invitation to Man. "Oh ! but," says he, "I have a wife and lee children ! " And then forthwith there issued from tho pea of some sentimental novelist, three volumes oc:avo, t i point oat to a sympathising public, in a tone of path o s, "see horrors of separating husband and wife." Separating bur heed and wife! L A him understand. Were nut soldiers sad sailors separated from their wires ? (Hear, hear.) Yet who ever wrote a book about them? There was the hoe. member for Brighton (Capt. Pechell) behind him. Ile ma a sailor. Suppose the whole crew of his ship (nssuming him to be capable of coinandieg one) were to rise up and say to him, just as be was about to sail, "Sir, I on married.' Why, his answer would be, " Well, we don't have wives on bead ship." (Laughter.) So he weal leave the wires on shore. But no pathos would be evinced—no three volume novels would be written about that. Parliamentary patriots never would talk about it. Why, even let theta take the cases of some members in their own house. Their dubs there necessarily separated them from their families. Let them take the gentlemen from Ireland, fur exa nplc. Who ever had got up and said, " Pity this poor Irish member who is deprived of all his happiness by your inhumanity in bring ing him here, and making him separate himself from hit wife and children." (Laughter). Why, surely, the ism who asked relief from the state must submit to the regale. Moos of the state in affording that relief. The poorhouse test was unpopular he well knew; it was especially unpipsdar this year—being the seventh of this Imperial Parhumat (A laugh.) No one was better aware, or hal more to guard against the effects of suck unpopularity than himself, bat as he began public life by speaking is favour of this systems) would he now say, were they tee last wart; he spike within those walls, that he did nut believe it was either unfair or creel to separate by a test the industri ini poor min who re quired and was entitled to relief, from the meat, and who would not take employment. At the same time Imbed always made, and he mai stained that there always oeght to he made, a distinction with respect to the old and Nibs. And this brought him to the subject of the peer-law commissioners, with respect to whom, ho was sorry to be obliged to say that they had not, in his opinion, fulfilled their duty by carrying out the law. The fact was, the min utensil:mere had quelled at the outcry mode in ono leading journal—he was not afraid to name it—the Times—s paper of which the member fur Knaresborough was the en: re feint echo—the almost imperceptible shadow. That member had been pushed into that house, and egged up to that wide by the Tames, and every word—every blow—every emphasis— every parent iesis of hi. was but a bid imitation of Ws Times' leading articles. The Times, had, in fain been the great parent of all this oppostam, and it had been enabled to carry . out its vie .s by the feeling of the Poor law Come issioners, who had tether beeuinclined to listen to the outcry than to carry out the principles of the law as originally passed. Had they earned out the law, they would have borne the people with then, and the Times would not have succeed, il in overthrowiag the commissioners as it had done. By constantly hammy ing at them it had made the camtnisameers iie that whirl was contrary to the spirit of the law, and then it had taken advantage of the it blunder. The commissioners had yielded, not to an imperious n , ceielty, but t i a party en . proving that inefficient men must have been put into the c imminise. If the Law had been sternly administered, the poor would have been ire flaky to it, for it was a law passed for the protection of the industrious and hardeorkim poor against the idle and vagabond poor. The latter elms was a small party throughout the country, but they were a noise, working party. They had an advocate in the member for Knaresburough—thee had en advocate in the Times and in popularity-hunters generally. They hail an a 'vacate, also, in the hon. member for Finsbury, weo brought his easplaced humanity to hear on this subject. What! semeithe who worked teem noon to night, and sometimes teem sight to noon, be bound by an inalienable right to msietain a tom who worked not at all ? Born to nothing, he (Mr. Roebuck) had by his own exertions obtained everything. Who shoat& come to him and say, " Give to me because I have nothing?" That was what the everting man asked. 11, said . - Has am I, with a wife and children, working ten hours a day (be Mr. Roebuck, supposed that would Le the time), tieing in a house and paying poot'e-rates. Whet right hat Game Thomas to take my earnings? George Thomas won't work. I have known him a repeated inmate of the Toth house all his life. He has been there '2O time aat let, and he will do nerhitig to support himself or hi. (entity." But, mid the hon. memner for Finsbury, th it was an un common case. How were they to distinguish ? How were they to dieting uish betwei n the .ndustrioua and deserving pow and the idle vagabond who would not work ? Mr. P. SCROPE. —Get him to work. Mr. ROEBUCK (continuing).—Certeinly, get him to work. But at what? At heating hemp? Where? In a shed? " Oh," mid the member fur Finsbury, "anywhere but in a beside." Why, it was not in a shed certainly that they would have to work, but, on the contrary, in a well-clean* and well-warmed habitation, out of which he might walk any hour of the day, and which had about it some preteat 4.111% he elegance rather than otherwise. If it was in a shed they &eked him to work—such a shed, for hatanee, tie tailed in the Dorchester union—an doubt they would be asmitedoe was the right hon. hart the member for that town, with that port of turbulent, muddy rhetoric for which the member k Knaresborough we. so famous. " Here'e i pretty g ," thll hon. member would ray, in his own choice parliamentary phraseulogy. (Liughter.) "Here's a place where the wind and the rain come in, and in which paupers are best ing hemp, though you would not shelter your cattle in it." Oh, but it was not in a shed that they were required to Ir bone, but in a beautifully built house--such a one as he hed passed at flee o'clock that morning, looking out from meg the oaks of the New Forest, and commanding a proefo:so the Solent "But that," said hon. members, "that is .a gel. There they wear a prison deem" A prison dreil Why, they were obliged to give them warm cloth*, and it was more ee inomical ti order clothing all of one sort. The real question, however, was, what was to be done with the labouring poor of this veinal? He did not make sorb a yell about the matte on the hon. member fit Koarasborough, but in &yenta*/ for the honest and labouring prior of the country he yielde d to e ass no mart in the house or out of it. He knew something the ruling men of the cenntry, end in a body the bon. man' bar for Knaresborough might take them mot beneficiellylst a model ; they were very acute ; they were not vulgar M their epithets, they were very careful in their staving*. pear, hear.) The bare •nealb i t fur Knareibermark aid . objected to the New Poor-law, Let them hero, fats avoid their own plan. He challenged the hon. memMr for Knaresborough to bring forward his plan; he chitlings' the boa, member for Finsbury to bring forwarl e hie plan. (Hear, hear.) There had been anew talk about doMructives ; let the hon. gentlemen for once In a way, be constructive,. Let them ttt their hands at an act of parliament. Oh! what a gee thing it would be to see en act of parliament by the hoe. member for Knaresborongh ! (Laughter.) .m e Cone.thirtiowsOk a production! Every body 'MI ready to mu sure, but no one had a remedy for the evils he de ouleaw. In the committee the hen. member for Liskeard disenba the other night, every member cried aneteetna upon the ME of settlement, but when a remedy was sobeitel they all sued to loggerheads about as m any oontradictoty crotchets mdse. were members. There Was the hon. member for Erebus-- iom of a'totherlions patri ot thii:and in his w the j remedy. He was another specimen of the Burt o f thief. another example of the principle, "And facia wash la where angel fear hi treed" a . ot ai t — er, w , i but ut h n i' nothing in g ' in ith' the u d way a w rif (Laughter.) The business now was to I. trials2 t. the poor. The hun, meaaber for Keene and other pretensive p noes, raved eguieTt -- :+t hawse as enemies of the poor ; whereas be ( tIF, Roebuck) believed in hat eimeeteees that it wee WO. general and sincere desire of the house to do the best tki could for the welfare kid happiness of the pour. (Keit'