The Express. — London, England, 1851-06-25 00:00:00

'ERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS.—TVE3OAT, lirsi 24. The Lotto CHANCILLOR took hie out at the o'clock. PETITIONS PRESENTED. NATIONAL LAND Cu . —By Lord BROUGHAM, from members of this company, complaining of the treat meat they hal received , and alluding to • member of the other house of parliament, whose name he would not men tion, as, having Wren aceemory to it. IVOLICZ ur Towxs Lord BROUGHAM, fpm Oxford, praying for en alteration in tins bill. Toe Inure STATEIL—By Lord HATHERTON, from Bilston, against the truck system. APPRENTICES TO SEA SERVICE (IRELAND) (No. 2) BILL. On the metiers of the Mamas of p..sonicisonn this bill pared through committee. OBSTRUCTIONS ON RAILWAYS BILL. Lord CAMPBELL said this bill had been returned Prom the other boom with • for a endments, which having et plained, be moved that thei r)nlohips should agree to. After • few words from Lord STANLEY the motion was agreed M to. STAP DUTIES (IRELAND) CONTINUANCE BILL. Oa the mobs of Earl GRANVILLE this bill was reads wood time. THE CAPE OF GOOD HOPE. Lost STANLEY postponed his motion on the subject of • representative government for the Cape of Good Hope until Monday OCII, when he should move that the subject L , . referred to a select committee ; and he begged to say, that in adopting this coursi., he was not actuated by any feeling of hostility to her Majesty's government. REVIVAL OF CONVOCATION. Lord REDESILLLE—My lents, I rise to give notice of a motion which I propose making on Tuesday nett — that an humble and dutiful address be presented to her "staidly raying fur the revival of both Houses of Convocation. 1 re I think so framed it as to prevent it being summit/ that I seek to °lade from this house any eaprenioa of opinion on the su b ject, though it is one worthy the consi deration of this house and of the public. That, however, is not my pulp& on the present occasion. I am only anxious to draw the attention of this horse and the public to a queetion which I conceive to be of vital importance to the interests of the church. I have long intended to submit this ntntion to the house, but I have delayed doing so be fore in CUI.CIIIIVEICI. of one of our bishops having called a diocesan synod ; and, as I AM desirous to keep the question altogether separate from that movement, I now give notice of me' motion, before the assembly of the synod, and I fie the dry for its discussion after it shall have terminated. (Hear, hear.) THE CASE OF JOTEE PERSHAUD. The Earl of ELLEN BOROUGH said he understood the noble lord. the President of the Boar' of Control, had received official inhumation of greater importance, and hail no ultection now to offer such explanation as might he neeeteary with respect to the case of Jotee Perthaud, he should give him an opportunity of doing so by moving for the popery of which he had given notice the other night. lint, tint, be would state what appeared to him to he the case, and he would also date who this Jotee Penhaud was. Ile was not an ordinary new who had made a large wan by contracts with the Indian government; he wits the son and brother of the most considerable bankers in bilk who heel as high a position in their own Mina as the Haring+ an. Rothechilds did in and were the possessors of most extensive estates. 'the father and brother, as early es 1810, commenced con tracting with the government ; they had always appeared to he trustworthy persons, and performed most valuable services. In the year le3B, when the army first marched to Affghanistan, Jetts: Pershaud,who was then at the head of the firm, took the contract fur the supply of the army ; and the nettle lord would recollect that no better appointed army ever proceeded from the frontiers of India. He subse quently was employed ex • contractor in the campaign of Itbulapore, and he was • contractor in the last war in the l'uttjaub. On all those three occasions he had great difficulties to coutenel e ith, because no sufficient previous preparation hail beets nine: for bringing together large bodies of men. And with respect to the last, which was • most difficult campaign, because the greatest number of troops were em ployed, he believed lie might say, without the fear of dis pute, that that great army had never wanted • day's provisioning, whilst the enemy were compelled to sur render for want of food. During all these operations Jotec l'enhautl was generally at bead-quarters, sharing in all the difficulties and dangers of the war, personally exported to every privation ; his agents were employed in every part of India providing the foal necessary for the men and horses. It was not imputed& that in employing so great o number, and such a variety of persons, many of those persous might have committed more than erron, and might have been guilty of the great offences attributed to Joint Pershand himself and hi. agents. But thine offences on the part of sulionlinate mono., meting at so great a distance from their chief, might be possibility have occurred without his having had any knowledge of it. Ile understood front all persona acquainted with the character and proccohnge of this per son, whom he might call LI gentleman, and he was remarkable fur his gentlemanlike manners in a country where all men were courteous, this gentleman had shown great facility iu the transaction of bunions ; he had never preten poi nt unreasonably ptas unreasoned) , when what he bail urged had been objected to ; and he was • favourite with all the officers. At the conclusion of the hostilities almost from the very wish when his services were nu longer censitlen-d of value this gentleman hail an action brought against him of • more disgraceful ehruutter. Ile undenttead that such were the 1111 . 1411 . 1 and such the intelligence of this person, that it would be difficult to carry on any operations without success in which he acted as the contractor; and it would also be most difficult—and be 'poke on tbs• authority of the person best calculated to form • judgment in this matter—it would he must difficult to carry on any great military operations in India without his assistants.. In February, th 19, about the conclusion of the war, various charges were broughtaguinet this gentleman, chiefly by agents employed is his service. These charges were re ferred to several commissariat officers and the military hoard, anti in May, late, the military beard referred the charges to Major Ramsey, who was the principal com missariat Aker in that department. In September, 1849, that talker reported that the charges were unworthy of cossialeration—that they appeared to pruned from a de sire to talon money nom Jotec Pershaud—and he ad vised that no proceedings should be taken thereupon. Tins report wee not to the military board, who were di vided in opinion. Two of the board concurred in the opinion that the Owen were unworthy of credit, but thu ode r ‘Col. Merkel thought the whole mutter should he referred to the president in council, who again referred it to the lieutenant-governor of the north w e st e rn provinces, and that lustetionary, on the Itch March, made • re- Drone to the magistrate of Agra, directing him to maks an inquiry, and that gentleman made his report on the 27th ot Jun.-. ltut there , were other re -loons made on the 12th and 19th of July by two other civil officers employed in that' part of the country. Ile understood that this report was written bribe gentleman to whims the duty was first lib trusted—Me. Dintietto—but that it was presented by sd•• the r who hail been substituted fur the first, at a •omewleat Lite perm.' in the summer. The lint magistrate who hod teen employed to investigate the truth of the charges was hantelf, to a large mould, • debtor of the person against whom the charges were made; and that he understood well stated to account for the further progress of the inquiry being eenthled to another gentleman. 'that other path man peoreeded to make his inquiries, and on the ilk./ November he presented his final report; and after that tiu d report the Lieutitiovernur of the north wagon protium directed thet the trial should proceed; and that as approved ern the 10th of November by the tiovernoin (Leiters', who appeared to have been without any cogentince whatever of the earlier proceedings in this Id*, Thu trial took place on the 27th of Manly and, after a trial which lasted twenty days, the am curd was unanimously acquitted. Ile should have stated that in September, 1840, after Jobe) Pershaud IX eta arraigned and had given bail, he proceeded to Cal. cotta, and there instituted • civil suit against the 1/01reelae 1114 . 11 t for the recovery of 578,000/.. which be alleged to be the balance due to hem. That proceeding, it appeared, was ill-advised, and was founded on • misapprebensime I 4 in the first place, he had brought a civil et* against the government, it would have been COIF potent for the government to have instituted a ed• metal prosecution against him, supposing matters to have come out during the investigation upon which they might have prosecuted bins. Seeing he was to be tried no. der • new act, by •jadsie and ajury appointed by theegoverm most, and seeing the way in which the case was got up, he did not wonder that Jobe) Pershauel should have preferred the chances of • trial in tho Supreme Ceurt to • trial in the court at Agra. (Hear.) He thought the president in council committed • great error by not adhering to the ele ment of the majority of the military board, which was that the inquiry ought not to be prosecuted further. Ile uadersteod the witnesses against Jute.; l'ershaud were principally persons who bad been concerned in the conenacte end who were brought by force under escort of eulice to Agra to be examined by force. They first gene rally rare testimony in favour of their employer ; and then it was said they were threatened with criminal proceedings for complicity a the offences and crimes charged against Julie ershaud. But they were informed that if they would make a full conk...gun, and support the charges, they should be pardoned; and some of those persons were said to have been retained its durance until the trial, that they might then give evidence according to their second state ments on oath. It was stated on the trial, and it had not been denied, that the defendant was at last committed upon the evidence of Icicle:sees with not one of whom he had ever been confronted, and without a n y evidcaist whatever having beeit even in his defence. lie knew not whether the de fendant had been called on to appear, but be did not appeer ; and the wh o l e o f t h e evidence up on which he w as arraigned was taken in his a b sence, an d h e never p roduced one single whales in his defence. (H ear , hear.) liut this was De: all; when he bad been arraigned he put in bail , an d it was then that he proceeded to Calcutta; and, ander the erroneous impression, that being in Calcut ta, he mig ht di-regal the Court of Agra, he did not rerun to Agri Use time when his bail expired. The person who bid he nna security for his appearance was his advocate, Me, Log and the recognisauces having been estreattel the antimeretfic a ; .tgrit proceedol to obtain payment of the aillesit bit which th e rteettnisanees were given. Mr. Lam My it surety for the appearance of Inter Pershaud. moynee. e. se ded to seize his personal goods, and laid an embargo en Lis printing press, be being the editor of a newspaper. !lag there was another steifewleut which he haul heard if is tit, country, under ateh cirtunistances, a lady's bedroom acre entered, and her jewellery taken from her, what would be thought of it ? Dot when in India policemen enured the serene of. Illation and took even the note-ring *vs the pow of hie wife, it was enough to rouse the in- THE EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY .EVENING, JUNE 25, 1851. and heAlli nrat ask the house, therefore, in uncaring to the lemma mewling of the bill, to sanction that clause. Me. SUMS slid there would be no difficulty in having additiomlthamhes built by private munificence if they God' be built without being endowed. But the Bishop of Lowliest odd unless they were endowed he would not con secrate them. There was a great cry for church extension on the part of some parties, but they would not allow of church extension unless they had the patronage. Twenty five years ago they could have had twenty additional churches built in the metropolis by Mr. John Smith and others, provided they could have had the appointment of the clergy, but as that was not allowed them, the churches were not built. And now what did they propose by this bill ? They proposed to take away half of the free sittings that had been appropriated for the last fifty years, so that in fact this bill was a robbery of the poor in order to give the bishops the power of nominating clergymen with increased salaries. Then the next clause was quite as objectionable. It was to give power to the commissioners to charge rents for pews which had been held by faculty. This mode of adding to the wants of the church, in utter disregard of the feeling of the public, he warned them would ere long tell fearfully against it. Ile moved that the bill be read a second time that day . six months. Sir B. HALL entirely agreed with his right hon. friend that the object of this bill as stated by him was a good one, namely, to subdivide large parishes, but this bill went fur b e yond that, and was not in accordance with the original intentions of the commissioners. This was not the first time that a bill of this kind had been proposed. One was pro posed last year, and this was the same with some little alteration. That billgaye powerto the commissioners to levy a church rate over the whole district, so that eyeryperson would come under this church rate at the very time that church rates were very obnoxious to the public at' large. The bill was nothing more nor less than a bill of the Bishop of London's, for the purpose of creating patronage and taxing the people to support the church. Such were the powers of the original bill. In consequence of the remonstrances that were made, the noble lord at the head of the goveniment said he could not con sent to such propositions. What was their proposition now ? Why, to enable the bishops and others to put a tax upon seats which were now free. That was one of the objects of the bill ; but there were some other curious propositions in it. Suppose a new church were built, and there was a po pular clergyman to it,they actually proposed to take the peer rents of that church to support another church where there might be a negligent minister who could not get a congre gation. Then there was another proposition to validate mar riages performed in certain churches, so that here was a bill brought in to facilitate the building of churches which were to legalise illegal marriages. This report emanated from the Bishop of London and certain other dignitaries ; and one of their propositions was a most monstrous one. It was, that the whole of the Crown livings should be disposed of for the purpose of creating a fund for the building of churches. Why did not these bishops propose to sell their own ? Ile believed that under the present Lord Chancellor nothing could be more admirable than the different ap pointments that had been made by him to livings. The late DrAthold had said it was not thedoctrine, but the discipline of the church that required reformation. Before giving these extraordinary powers to the bishops some thing ought to be done in this respect. There were a great many matters in the bill which ought not to pass into law ; he should therefore divide against the second reading. Mr. PLI.:MPTRE hoped the bill would be a very useful bill, though he doubted as to the propriety of making it re- trotpective. He would give it a second reading, and have it fully and fairly considered in committee. Mr. W. J. FOX said it was strange that the second read ing of this bill should be urged on at a time when it was impossible it could be fully considered. It touched on so many popular interests, including those of the dissenters, that it was most essential there should he an opportunity for considering it out of d.ors. It contained a great many clauses, and referred to eighteen acts of parliament. Three of the clauses all went in the same direction, to authorise the allotment of fice seats in pews, and the imposition of I pew rents in all churches built since 1800. It was in fact of • measure of taxation, and of the most improper kind ; for it lazed people for going to church, who were at present not subject to that payment. This taxation would operate most oppressively on the poor ; ancient parishes were exempted. Thus, the burden would be more heavy on the modern formed parishes. If the clergy were made to depend on the pew-rents, this would be to introduce the worst feature of dissenting voluntaryism, which rendered their ministers dependent on the caprices or changes of opinion of their hearers. (Hear, hear.) This was done, while the report stated that the church pro perty was capable of realising half a million per annum. He should oppose the second reading of the bill. Sir H. INGLIS denied that this bill was promoted by the bishops for the sake of patronage. lie should support the second reading of the bill. Lord It. GROSVENOR said the bill was proposed to remedy certain inconveniences, and it was ardently desired by the working clergy, who believed that it would give them the independence they had sought, and which was so necessary to the discharge of their spiritual duties. The bill removed many of the obstacles in the way of endowing churches, and, so far from increasing the patronage of the bishops, it would have an opposite effect. He thought the objections of Sir B. Hall were directed rather to the bill of last year than the present. No !prelate had ever subscribed so largely out of his own funds for church purposes, in pro- portion to his income, as the Bishop of London had done. (Hear, hear.) Mr. HENLEY said the house had not had sufficient time to examine the bill ; therefore, in voting for the second reading, he must reserve himself on certain points, includ ing the pew-rents and the fees. Sir G. GREY said the report on which the bill was I founded was presented two years ago, and a measure had been introduced last session that the opinion of the country might be obtained. This was done, and material alterations I had been made in the bill. Ile considered that ample time had been given to consider the bill, so far as to take the second reading, sad it might be more fully considered in committee. The objection that the bill merely sought to get public money, and increase the church patronage, was wholly unfounded. Its leading object was to convert districts into independent parishes, and render the incumbents of those districts inde pendent of the rector of the parish, who, under the exist bg arrangement, received the fees paid at the district starches. The bill had not been prepared by . the go vernment, but by the ecclesiastical c immissioners ; the government had conducted it through the other house, and generally approved of its provisions; but there were certain alterations which he should propose on going into committee. Lord DCNCAN said that all were agreed that the bill had been hurried on prematurely, otherwise greater objec tion would have been made to it in the country. His main objection to the bill was the imposition of pew-rents, as an income for the clergymen, on what had been free sittings. (Hear, hear.) To say the least this would be a most unpo pular act. Mr. MOWATT said he had had ample time to examine the bill, and thought it most objectionable; he should, therefore, vote against the second reading. Mr. S. HERBERT begged to move that, it being then 4 o'clock, the debate be adjourned. The debate was accordingly adjourned to Friday. ST. ALBANS 'BRIBERY COMMISSION BILL. On the motion that this bill be read a third time, Mr. BANK ES objected that the bill should be taken at that advanced hour of the day. The bill was one that, in its present shape, should not pass ; and therefore, at that late hour, should not be proceeded with. (Hear.) The bill was then postponed to Thursday, at twelve o'clock, and the house, at ten minutes past four, adjourned to six o'clock. Tieliousercassembled at six o'clock. NOTICES OF MOTION. Mr. DISRAELI said, in answer to a question which hail been put to him by the hon. baronet the member for Mary lebone (Sir B. Hall) in what stage he intended to make his motion, he begged to say that he found that his hon. friend the member fur Huntingdon (Mr. T. Baring) had an instruction to move in committee respecting the duties on coffee, which must he brought forward on the considera tion of the first measure of the government, on Mon day. It would bo necessary, therefore, for him (Mr. Disraeli) to move his resolutions by way of amendment to the second government measure, which related to supply. The resolutions which he intended to move were these : " That, according to an estimate of the probable future produce of existing taxes, submitted to this house by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it appears that a surplus of revenue may be expected in the present year to the extent of about 2,000,0001. sterling. That in the revenue so esti mated is included a sum exceeding 5,000,0001. sterling de rived teem the tax on income, respecting which an inquiry has been directed to be made by a committee of this house, on the result of whose labours may depend the future re newal or modification of that impost. That in this pro visional state of the finances of this country, it appears to this house to be most consistent with a due regard to the maintenance of the public credit, and the exigencies of the public service, not to make any material sacrifice of the public income, ineffecting such changes as may be deemed advisable in other branches of taxation." ' MANCHESTER BONDING WAREHOUSES. ' Mr. M. GIBSON moved for a select committee, to in quire into the working of the system of warehousing foreign goods in bond, in Manchester, as it affects imp or t ers , ' dealers, and consumers of goods liable to Customs duty, re siding in Manchester, and the neighbouring towns ; also as to its effects on the Customs revenue, and to report to the house as to the expediency or otherwise of placing Man chester, on an equal, footing with all bonded towns in the ' United Kingdom. The hon. member said this was a question large manufacturing population residing in the neighbour hood of Manchester. The towns especially concerned were Salford, Macclesfield, Bolton, Stockport, Oldham, Hythe, Ashton, Staleybridge, containing a population little short of a million, consuming largely foreign produce, and now enjoying the privilege of warehousing foreign produce in Manchester without payment of duty. Nineteen memo rials had been presented to the government from the corporations of these towns, and from the different trades ; and he wished it to be clearly , understood that in asking the home to agree to a committee, he did not do so on behalf of the corporation of Manchester, or of any particular section of persons residing in that city, but on behalf of the important district which surrounded Manchester. (Hear, hear.) If the warehous ing of foreign goods without the payment of duty were an advantage to any portion of the community, it must be especially advantageous to such • population as he had described. The warehousing of foreign goods was valued as an advantage by Manchester and the surrounding district, and they had availed themselves of the facili ties for bonding. Apprehensions were, however, enter , taitvd that it was the int en ti on o f th e goverment nment , to raise the bonding system to be discontinued, exer c i s i ng 1, ' for th a t purpose the discretion which was vested in them by ' law; soa Ns object that evening was to induce the house I not to tleuiere that the bonding omelet should becontioued, the on n re s ve s n o u rr e o w on o d u i l ap d not m coffer nlelssteheehgrenoatLemartll:l and Biro o b f ut n to ith a d p ro po n i i n ng t a committee mi eo t n t t ee inni to n i p nqu o, i t re ttn in po to rto th n e t propri e ty ptider mingham, might share the advantages and facilities of bearing it no spirit bonding. that Mr. LABOUCIIERE said that as his right hon. friend po g po u l r io n n. thin large ntode m th an to ufli i c ro tunng and commer of hostility to the government, or to any party in vernment in the difficult position in which it was placed , surfs. His right honourable friend did not wish house, but with the view of coming to the aid of the go-. m th a e t e te h t an t e t el o to o r n o ld f the h° E tt l eoe che n l a u t c y r f.. ll , a r d h g i o tn ne to so o fu y ll o y o l .y nt o few the government being called upon, on the one hand, to wo connected the the contrary, desired them to retain it, if they thought it the maintenance of the customs establishment while, subject to the conditions imposed. Though with bonding, or, on the other hand, to deprives large wo rth ore tained _ place a possible additional charge on the public revenue for t o take awa y the p rivilege from Manchester, but, on his former opinions he should atilt be reluctant commercial district of the advantages which it now enjoyed. they bonding as now existing should be discontinued, be - The question resolved itself into the very simple one, whe- t h o o e n oncesl oo e d th t i t" pri li vil o eg d e td to n e o v t er thi y t n o h we th w e ith ao a ve g m re m at en po t pula. wero cause in carrying it on, the government might possibly be called u upon to break down the arrangement and open the considering the facilities which bonding afforded for tacked importance paltry to kee it this should object to t h e sum required pup, commercial purposes, that its continuance in put to an expense of 2,7001. a-yeas. But who could say, privilege to eve ry ism . privilege, t t a h e e pe pc , -o h p o lo w o no f M sn a n n o c i lLe d ster th a o t ; sions. ere were good reaso greater than the expense incurred. Unquestionably, if it were determined to-morrow that the bonding Syr", the borough rates but there were other means of producing district might not increase tho revenue to an extent when he remembere d their eir ginteaftoltiberatralnnitpy theon It m h o er un occa- t on would be paid by those only who profited by the system. London, so far from any money being saved by the adoption _ of such a course the impediments thrown in the way of should be abolished at Liverpool and all other ports except it, by a small duty upon goods actually warehoused, winch the p ressure that was made upon him. glad the Chancellor of the Exchequer had the spirit trade would diminish the revenue and a considerable loss be to h li c e r c e:p w as el d become apprehensive that the Chancellor of the Exchequer for his constituents that they considered it un well about to recommend the withdrawal of the bonding just t inflicted on the state. The inhabitants of Manchester had M r . li a l m tV an i c i h lE es l t. t e T r O sh N ou s .l u d p b po c rt c,i e l d led th u e .. ot t i7 p .. ay il a e l t l. h t o h. i c ig e h l t . penses when the whole neighbourhood around WA, ben.> notice of their desire to terminate their liability for the system in that town, because the corporation had given ster should not be placed in the same situation as other fitcd by the privilege. Ile did think it hard that Man expenses of the customs establishment in that town. che Mr. SPOONER, without pledging himself to any par that either the bonding system must be given up, witlethe subject iu future, would or the state must maintain its own o ffi cers in this case titular line in connexion The question, then, was reduced to this narrow limit, to wns enjoying the same privilege. a v no Aftert e d for en t o h u e fneto, motion. not Galway, That bill - was, at the suggestion he believed, of in sir oth ß en ob . ert ln l is B ce 4o l , , s from Mr. Heywood, Mr. Kershaw, u the it l d a i t d e committee. In committee several resolutions were passed, Mr. M. GIBSON said, one of two things only could now pears to this committee that the privilege of haying titillated according to law, a ref b e i lL waS to int a md s: ce lee d t , and the matter lay betweeu the Chancellor of the arid amongst them was the following :—" That it ap- heppen : o . f the Manchester corporation ha d ter bonding warehouses may be conceded to inland towns, trade of the district and t he Exchequer. the revenue." An Untied at the expense of the state. Whichever of these vantage to trade and safety to he asked furinquiry . Ile was under due restrictions and regulations, with ad- Either the establishment must be discontinued, or con amendment was moved by Lord G. Somerset, opposing two things were to happen, in favour of Manchester. He wondered that now when enti re r es p onsibi lity o h t his matter on himself. lie bad the principle of inland bonding, but making a reservation sorry to hear that the right hon. gentleman had taken the the privilege hail been in operation in the particular seen the day when he was not unwilling to share his ro- case of Manchester an opposition should be made to a sponsibility with committees of the house. (Hear.) parliamentary inquiry as to whether it should be continued. The h ouse then divided , and there appeared He would remind the Chancellor of the Exchequer that For the motion 5O among the ayes for the second reading of the bill he found Against it the names of Sir C. Wood, Sir G. Grey, of the Secretary JURISDICTION OF TILE CENTRAL CRIMINAL at War, indeed of all the leaders of the Whig party. COURT. of ti nrving e " That o li f e th tr e us sy t t i t el ein th fo c e re n f l o o re np , tthhaotfatftimerenrieryienweeouolfdtliirteotwooprkposinge it liislrd.e.FititoEdloVtEo Cri a motion for a committee to inquire whether the minal Court to the whole of each county on t he . home eir- N ext ro en s il th k e r 4 t u h r e i.di lm e r =of • the al 1 by the •l • was not carried, although it had been reported favourably the ground of the facilities now affair nays privilege might be beneficially continued. The bill of 1840 cuit." He argued in favour of the motion principally on upon by the select committee ; but the reason was that for the cheap and speedy transit of prisoners and witnesses. there occurred a change of government, and its supporters His object was to facilitate the aeministration of justice and were thus disabled from carrying out their intentions. The Save expense. Ile would not, however, press hi, motion succeeding government, however, brought in a bill giving at present, as he merely brought it forward in order that p the bonding privilege to Manchester ; but they clogged it the attention of government might be directed to the subject with a condition that Manchester should p ay all the cx- with a view to their bringing in a measure tu carry out the pease of the establishment. The borough submitted at the object in some future session. time, but he denied that it had entered into any contract or Sir G. GREY had two objections to the motion. In the bargain. It was ~uncommon case, when bonding privileges first place, it was not only an ate-tract resolution, but an Or but afterwards, when the experiment proved sue- mitted it was not desirable to give effect. In the next were given to ports, to require the expenses in the first street resolution to which the hon. gentleman himself ad instance,cessful, to transfer them to the state. The only question for place, to effect this change would be contrary to the object the committee if appointed to consider was whether the public of establishing the Central Criminal Court, which was to benefits were likely to be sufficient to justify an expense of try offences in the metropolis and the district immediately 2,7001. a year. Misbelief was that the expense would be am- adjoining. ply repaid by the general gain to the revenue. It was not The motion was withdrawn. necessary, then, when he was merely moving fora commit- SAVINGS BANKS. to consider of Chancellor of the Exchequer might be of opinion that the future day, resolve itself into a committee, tee, to go into any figures or details on the subject. The Mr. 11. HERBERT moved "That this house will, on a bonding system had been carried too far ; but was it rca- an address to her Majesty. praying that she will be gram sonable to commence the system of retrenchment with a ously pleased to extend the same measure of re lief to the town which stood sixth on the list, there being only five depositors in the late Rochdale, Scarborough, Tralee, and which collected a larger amount of revenue, while Killarney Savings Banks as has been already extended to several small places at which very small amounts the depositors in the late Cutfe-street, Dublin, Savings were collected retained the privilege? (Hear, hear.) Bank." In support of the motion he would read a few It was alleged that no place should have bonding privileges figures showing the circumstances of the parties interested except a seaport, and that Manchester was not a seaport. in one of these institutions. In the Rocha:de Savings Bank True, but then it had direct communication with the there were 2,963 depositors ; of these, 722 unmarried wo sea by water. Let them look , at the case of London. Were men, 292 married women, 231 young persons or children, there not vast quantities of goods trausferred from the ships 9.53 minors, 539 labourers, and a sick club having 10,000 to fists in the river ? and where was the difference of goods members. What an amount of misery and suffering did that were unladen in the Mersey and conveyed by water to these figures imply ? (Hear, hear.) Ile could have given Manchester ? Again, take the case of Chester, which was similar figures with regard to others of these banks, but a bonding port. lie found that of duty paid on goods was unwilling to detain the house. The Chancellor of the warehoused there, and directly imported there, the amount Exchequer no doubt would tell them, as he had done on a was ; while on goods brought from other ware- former occasion, that these parties had no legal claim to housing places, the duty was 76.9741. Goods might he bonded redress. He admitted at once that they bad nu legal in Chester which had been conveyed there by railway from claim. If they had possessed a legal claim, that house London ; and what was the difference if they conveyed would not have been the place to try it. Neither, how goods by railway from London to Manchester ? Why ever, had there been any legal claim for the payment of should the privilege be granted in the one case 262, 0001. to the holder, of forged exchequer bills, and he and withheld in the other ? He hoped that the conceived that in the case of these savings banks, tho Chancellor of the Exchequer would consider this question poverty of the depositors was a strong reason why some merely as one of not taking away. All he (Mr. M. Gibson) thing should be done for them. Ile (Mr. Herbert) founded asked for was inquiry, and he trusted that a full one would the claims of these parties on the ground that the legisla be granted before the bonding privilege was taken away turn had just meddled sufficiently with these institutions to from Manchester. If it could be shown before the coin- induce the general belief that depositors had the govern mittee that Manchester did not pay its expenses as a bond- meet security. lie would show that that belief had ing place, then discontinue it, but let the matter be referred been fostered and encouraged by the government, to a committee. and undergo a full and fair investigation. and also that the government had been tampering Mr. BRIGHT seconded the motion. with the money. The money belonging to the savings banks The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that had been used for public purposes; and he, therefore, if he were to confine himself to the simple guess thought that government had no right to turn round and tion of granting • committee, he might dispose of it say, •We are mere trustees or guardians of your money." in a few words ; but as his right honourable friend According to the rules regulating these matters, no savings had gone into the general questiou, it would be necessary bank could be formed without the consent of the Com te follow him for a few moments. His right hon. friend missioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, a bar had confounded the question in so extraordinary a manner, rioter was appointed by them to look to the rules of all that is would soon be impossible to define what really was banks which were established, and these rules were duly a port. If any town which had water communication with advertised. When these banks had been at first insti the sea was to be considered a port, there was hardly a toted, it was not only considered that the depo town in England that might not claim the privilege. He sitors had the security of government, but up till 1844 (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) asserted that, with the they had the security of the trustees. In 1844, however, exception of Manchester, bonding privileges were only a clause had been introduced into a bill totally taking away given to ports to which foreign ships might come. He all responsibility from the trustees of these institutions, and would simply state what had really occurred iu 1843. The substituting no other security. Ile did not altogether town of Manchester, represented by its corporation, came to object to the relief of the trustees from the responsibility, the right hon. member for Cambridge, and applied for for where the banks had been established it hail been the bonding privilege; and that right hon. gentleman, as thought that the deposits would only be about a million, the only protection to the Treasury, expressed his willingness whereas they hail risen up to 28 millions ' and it might be to grant the privilege on couditionthat the town should bear considered unreasonable to charge s u ch a heavy responsi the expense, and there was not the slightest difference on the bility on the trustees. These poor people, however, subject. In 04.14 the privilege of bonding was conceded to should not have been left to find out, when the Manchester, on condition that the town bore the expense ; hour of distress came, that without their know and there could be no doubt that it was so far to carry out ledge the security was taken away without any other the arrangement, an act of parliament was passed. In the being substituted. That was the state of things in 1844. first bill the privilege was confined to Manchester, ceded- But the legislature at that time contemplated that some Mg Salford, an exclusion which the Manchester people security should be given, as the act stated that the tins seemed anxious to retain, but the privilege was in the end tees should nut be liable beyond the particular sum for conceded to the neighouring town as well. Soon after his which they might render themselves liable. But they did (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) accession to office, the not enter into any security, though Mr. Tidd Pratt Manchester people, finding the privilege not so beneficial wrote circulars to all the trustees, stating that this secu to them as they had anticipated, sent deputations to him to rity might be entered into. Ile submitted that it was the induce him to charge upon the public an expense which duty of Mr. Tidd Pratt, when he found that no security had been incurred fiir their benefit only. His reply was was entered into, to call the attention of the public to the that they had no right to expect him to relieve them fact, and not let them go on for six years, and. from the burden, and that they should look for remune- then let them discover, to their loss, that the seeu ration in the rat es they charged on the goods warehoused. ride they fancied they had was tiken from them. He held They, however, refused to increase their rates, which were in his hands a circular written from the War-office in 1543, extremely low, hoping to make up the deficiency out of directing the flag officers to impress on the mind of the 'see the public revenue. With regard to the proposal now made shiners the desirablenes s of laying money by to serve th e m he could see no advantage that could ar ise from an ingairy in the day of sickness, and th e flo g officers were directed to before a committee of the house, they h a d already all the inform them that they hail gevernment security " for the evidence on the subject that was necessary, and to go into principal and interest. What aorta could be stranger such an investigation as was now proposed could result in Then in one of the school books whieli were published un nothing but a loss of time and money. His right hon. der the authority of gover nment , th ere was a p assage to t h e friend said the bonding privilege was of great advantage to effect that every peraou who put his muney iu the sayings the town, but the evidence taken before the commission— hank became a public creditor. Then there W 33 another the evidence of the Manchester people themselves—did not consideration. The goverunient had used the deposits in go to show that it was so. For instance, it had been said the savings bank from time to time for the public exi that an advantage accrued from the privilege of mixing gentles, and he had a return before him from which it ap teas, but, in the evidence, it was stated that the peered that the loss to the public arising from these stock- Manchester people were too innocent to compete success- jobbing transactions amounted to very nearly two millions. fully with the London and Liverpool traders in that parti- Ile said then the government heaving used the savings bank cular ; the inference being that there was a system of money for their emergencies, they had no right to turn adulteration practised in the two ports referred to from round and say they merely held the money for the conve which Manchester was free, and by means of which the nience of the depositors, and that if any accident occurred MOMS was attained. If, therefore, his right hon. friend by which loss wall sustained, the depositors must bear the was anxious for the morality of Manchester he should op- loss. Then look at the effect of taking away the security. pose the continuance of the bonding privileges. It was cvi- Look at what had incurred in Ireland. In 1846 there were dent the object was to relieve the people of Manchester 74 savings banks in Ireland. Since 1846 no fewer than 21 from a burden they had a right to bear—a burden of of them had been discontinued. It might be said there had some 3,000/. a year, and throw it on the public. But there been a famine in Ireland, but the banks had been die were many inland towns, if the principle were once con- continued precisely in those districts that were least visited ceded, that had far stronger claims for the privilege than by the famine. Ile hail himself been witness of the ill Manchester. In the first place. Manchester was within an effects produced by the failure of two other banks. Widows hours distance by railway of the port of Liverpool, to whose husbands had saved 3 little money, which hail been which it might send its orders by electric telegraph, and placed in the bank, were begging their bread, and old act , receive back the goods almost immediately. These were rants and others who had placed their savings of years in advantages which such places as Leeds, Coventry, Leices- the bank were starving. The sum required to do justice to ter, and other inland towns possessed in a far less degree, these depositors was leas than would fit out one line-of and if any town had less ground than another for claiming battle ship, one-third of what they voted last night fur the the privilege it was Manchester. If the people of Man. Kaffir war, one-fifth of what the noble lord opposite (Lord cheater cousidered the benefit so great (which he did not) Palmerston) annually spent in his crusade against the they might obtain it at a very small charge. lie did not slave trade. He believed about 100,0001. would pear them want to deprive them of the advantage if they were content 10s. in the pound, and justice required that that sum should to bear the charge, but he was net prepared to give it them be granted. at the cost of the public. Mr. S. CItAWFORD seconded the motion. In the peti- Mr. BRIGHT contended for the general principle that tion which he had that night preseeted on this subject from no distinction should be drawn between inland towns and his constituents it was stead that the amount of claims seaports in conferring on them the advantages of the bond- was about 100,0001. To meet this sum there was at the lag system. lie referred to the enormous trade and menu- time of the failure in the hauls of government 26,0001. ; facturing products of Manchester, as proving the title that in the hands of th e l oca l treasurer 1,7881., and actual town could urge for a share in the facilities accorded to property 16,0001., making altogether 44,0001., in ports of comparatively insignificant consequence. addition to which some benevolent persons hid made Mr. CARDWELL said he had been charged by his right a subscription amounting to 17,0001., reducing the actual loss hon. friend the member fur the University of Cambridge to to 38,3071. The petitioners stated that they relict upon oppose this motion of the right hon. gentlemen opposite, their moral right and claim for the intervention of paths because, if this privilege of bonding was to be granted to went to assist them, inasmuch as parliament had relieved every inland town that demanded it, the settlement now the trustees from respousieiiity and left the petitioners prevailing would be disturbed and no available check would without proper security, althimeh this depositor, believed be imposed on the bonding system. It would be an in- that government was responsible. He wished to see no fringement of the understanding, and would take away all divided security. If the state interfered at all it ought ;to reasonable and definite principle. suerw hen to t h h e ate dutiest t he were advantageso hi high lt,lsoaptgive full and complete security ; otherwise to abstain from Mr. HUME had voted for the extension of the system interfering entirely. Nothing could be more injurious than was the goo ds , of t and no t h to av al e l j o us w ti t c l e w d i one Pre"i thl a , t a o nd in en s tl ii would d the be P Te co rc u s b ul l not t if paying the duty until the goods were sold, and he had this motion were refused. thought that Manchester might, in fairness, have the privis Mr. MORRIS brictly supported the motion. lege, if the merchant, there considered it worth their while The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped the to bear the expenses of it. lie could not see that any in- house would make some allowance for the not very agree formation was required as regarded Manchester, which able situation in which be wes placed. On most occasions p fro to m po r: d in on goi nt ry qu o iry f th in is to ki t n h d o . no l t f e h is ought not to apply to all other places that he was accused of wilful extravagance in throwing away the were ports, or that any advantage would be derived public money • he bad now been attacked, both in that it i f the righ t different h f friend e p n o d rts had of I howeverd the painfulprecee' i him o to motion, so, oe it v:wry.; hisd iedreont; to oppose thecountry, he should havebeen happy to joinhen, for there this motion. Whatever distress hail been eteasioned by the were many cases in which the advantagederived by the port failure of these savings banks, no ground hat: been shown was not worth the expenditure, and some in which why the ich had government should L uke good losses svh it did not even counterbalance it, but when he occurred through no fault of Veer.. In the report On the considered that a bargain hat been made with Manchester Cuffiestreet hank, peculiar t nc e had been sliewn , ilrell.ll3 3 at the time the privilege of bonting was conferred ueon -to exist. It was proved that on two occasions the state of that town, he could not take upon himself to vote I the bank had bee n brought knowledge of the Com tu tilt! for a change of the conditions. (Hear.) missioners for the Reduction of the National Debt ; and Mr. T. EGERTON thought if it could be proved that though nu blame whatever was cast on the commisaionere. mettle people and produce a spirit of insane-e— -thos en amid Indus to the other. (H hear.) It wu as IMO otbialt would never he forgiven ear, by his cl ass, or by ✓ tillikelrlit whom had been in fl icted so deep a wrong. e 1,8 bid ma Indian territory by the respect which we bod Aiwa tot temples and mosques and zealous. (Rear, ben.) If we were to despise the means by which we had 111111 Ma it, and could diuegard' the feeling% of the people al Sea subjects, they might depend on it that our tenure at tuna would not be worth • fortnight's purchase. =.) The noble lord concluded by moving for the pro of the charges against Jotee Pershaud our army isestrector in India, and of the verdict given on the trial. Lord BROUGHTON rose to reply lie should take the liberty, in the first plate, of saying that he was most happy to find that the charge which in the first instance hid been brought against the government of India had not been repeated that evening by the noble earl, but, on the contrary, that he had had tise candour and straight forwardness to own that the charge of the govern ment of India having instituted a criminal proceeding in order to stop a civil suit had no foundation. But that was the first charge which had been made— a charge which if well founded, would have made the government of India liable to all the imputations, and to mere than all, the imputations cast on it by the noble earl. The case, however, was exactly the contrary. The civil suit was not instituted until after the early and the really important part of the criminal investigation had been en tered on. But it would be easy to show that there were good grounds for supposing that the civil suit was insti tuted in consequence of the criminal prosecution. The facts of the cast could bo briefly stated as far as they affected a justification of the government of India in hav ing taken these proceedings. On the 30th of March, a native of Agra, mixed up in the affairs of Jotee Pershaud: sent in a representation to the authorities stating that Jotce Penhaud had been guilty of corruption, em bezzlement, and forgery in connection with his dealings i with the government of India. The case was submitted to Major Ramsey, who reported, in the exercise of his discre- 1 tion, that he did not think the matter worthy of considers- lion. This report was then submitted to the military board. Two of the three constituting the military board with Major Ramsey, that the charge made against a T ;fee Penhaud was unworthy of attention, but Colonel Mackie, the third, a gentleman of great weight in the service, did think that the accusation ought to be inquired into fully. Such, indeed, was considered the value of the opinion of Colonel Mackie, that the military board, in submitting their report to the council, submitted at the same time a state ment of the opinion of the single dissentient. Upon all these facie being placed before the council they were consi dered, and the result was that the president in council or dered that an investigation should take place. Mr. Cum mins, the chief magistrate of Agra, being at the time absent from his post, the examination was entrusted to ordinate magistrate, Mr. Denison • and the report which Mr. Denison made, after carefully looking over all the charges, was to the effect that he W ascertained one false charge for 4,400 bullocks to have been made, and that be had discovered an intention to make another false for 25,000 bullocks, a charge which had not been only in consequence of the announcement of the inquiry. Mr. Denison did not continue the examination. On the return of Mr. Cummins the investigation was referred te him, as the superior officer ; and this circumstance attested to the fairness, and not to the unfairness, with which the inquiry had been conducted. Mr. Cummins reported ' to the effect that he had examined the whole of the evidence, had heard several witnesses, and that he had become satisfied of the existence of the most extensive frauds. The noble earl had spoken of a serious discovery which had been made with ;reference to Mr. Denison, which had necessitated his being withdrawn as the examiner in this case. It was quite true that Mr. Denison bad on a previous occasion borrowed money from Jotee Penhaud, and that this debt bad not been altogether discharged at the time of the investigation. But in order to show the spirit by which the government of India, or, at least, Lord Dalhousie, desired that this inquiry should be characterised, it was sufficient to mention that the way first moment the Governor-General was made aware of the position in which Mr. Denison stood to the party accused, he gave orders that the culmination should be placed in other hands, and be expressed himself deeply concerned that Mr. Dcuisou should have been placed in such a posi tion. These were, however, not the only two magis trates who fame to a conclusion adverse to Jotee Penhaud. Two other magistrates besides Mr. Cum mins and Mr. Denison were appointed, and concur rently inquired into other charges; and these two gentlemen also reported that they had detected frauds to a very considerable extent. Now this was all in July, 18.50, and up to that time there had been no hint on the ' part of Iota! Pershaud, or on the part of any of his friends, of an intention to proceed with a civil suit against the government of India for the recovery of an alleged balance due to him. It was nut until some months after all these reports had been delivered in, and after all this mischief had been done to the reputation of Jotee Penhaud, that he, or his friends, resolved to bring a civil suit in the Calcutta court against the government. The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH—After he was arrested ? Lord BROUGIITON—Tee, after be was arrested; but the ono transaction followed upon the other; and the con nexiou could be easily traced. On the 4th of October, 11150, the attorney a Jotee Pershaud made a formal demand and iestituted a suit for the payment of the sum of 570,0001. The Assistant Commissary-General (Captain Newbolt) in the commissariat department was applied to for an explanation, and he expressed his surprise that these demands of Jotee Pershaud should now have been made so suddenly, no such demands ever hang been heard of before in the department. The gamer meat acted in the plainest and most proper manner. And to show the spirit of fairness in which the whole affair was conducted, he might mention that Major Bygrave, who had been appointed to examine those accounts, had reported that there was • balance in favour of Jot* Penhaud. Lord LIROUCHIAM.—How much? Lord BROUGHTON did not know the exact amount. Major Lawrence, who signed the minutes of conned of the government, in a minute, an extract from which be bed lOW before hina„ made mention of an offer which had loom nets on the part of June Penhaud of a common% la mblob be agreed to put an end to the civil snit if the would abandon the criminal proesedisr AD offer was refused. Subsequently*, et do poissi• ings were reviewed by the mis=l ani s In tab in mute of the 4th Nowsialter, ausemmilla approval of the detsnsiaelles aim am' to poem= le the prosecution, in order lbol.ll It wan loam el the character of high negoilnembil Moen nes their misdeeds might all nem =llO 11• liti Of, on the other hand, if lien Ins at As imputations that their ebenelie oolglM be al 1110.1111 flea rated. With respect to se* Sr **Odom.% be bad only seen them in nt wampum I *owed that the greatest indulgence had bias user Peeshaud ; there had been no extortion pretaili NI bit. Is had forfeited his recognieances, and he had been 101 l unmolested. lie knew, therefore, of no charge welch mold be brought against: the government in the matter, =tenth, noble earl said be was not fairly tried, That, however, could not be justly asaintaiiied ; for the jury eunisied of four half-omits and a native, a very able adman, hell defended bia s ens be web sequined. What, the., AN dm amble earl air plain of t Was it of an error a =id a libe part of the governoranneral in Mons Ito lobl. Had he not ordered the trial, would it net boa been aid' that it wee in consequence of ear complicity between Jotee and some high departmental eta,,, whoa ciendwit 1 the govern/tent did net wad to any, enema? What. lip, I was to be dons widabe spaded Or aeg leambe. law of whom had given fear ebelie isidentlutilieeimpe wig Jotee Penhaud were weih4ll6Bl4 ens amPut hubs pew ented ? The government Mk le Ink me eats illneonvo than to order the trial, and be mil net see Oak iallid be made a ground of complaint easiest the ineenneat loot they had failed to obtain • verist Their lerdaiipe beam that it was not always possible to .obtain a vemlbe In this country. All that he contended for was, that lIMMIS bad been • sufficient case to go before a jury in the natter. The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH replied. He contended that there had been a great error in judgment committed in proceeding criminally until Jots. Pershaud had proceeded with kis civil suit, and hail been found to rely upon docu mute liable to impeachment. He brought no charge against the Governor-General, who he believed could not have acted in any other manner than he had done ; but still he doubted if the prosecution would have been sanctioned by him had he been in Calcutta in February. The motion was then, without further discussion, agreed to. REGISTRATION OF ASSURANCES BILL. On the motion of Lord Cestraina. this bill was read • third time. On the motion that the bill do pare, The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that as their lordship* had now arrived at the last stage of the measure, he begged , to cell attention to one or two circumstances of an interest ', ing character. lie believed they had succeeded in solving , satisfactorily a most important question, involving no lees ; than the settlement of • point which had been more or lees in agitation fur years. Although Use measure was • government measure, and was now pseud with their full sanction and concurrence, still the chief merit of solving the difficulties connected with it was attributable to the efforts of able and learned men to the members, fur instance, of thine commissions which hail sat upon the subject, but, most or all, to the labours of the noble and learned Intel near him (Lord Campbell) who had devoted his attention indefatigably to the bill. In fact, it was the result of a complete inquiry. It would secure to the country the most effectual of title*, place those titles beyond all estv:l, and make them easily accessible and use ful on all occasions. (Hear, hear.) The bill was then paned. SALMON FISHERY (SCOTLAND) BILL. This bill Rued through committee. AGRI CULT Ult.iL DISTRESS. L ar d BERsileita preseuted petitions from boards of WlZwed ot h ers in the counties of Leicester, Nor &mile, a implaicing of the continuance of eiph r ip d a di s t ress , and praying that the law of Mania mid remora I might he repealed. Some attu ne h e m id were n . e .-ously signed • the parties stated Meet th e y w ere s u ff er i ng ww ,, , er great distress, and hoped Mae measure might be adopt. d to relieve them from the I rut burdens of taxation now p:eveing upon them. Ile' asbalenstcedlordtos had d m IfeOrtr thepresc hous e , b;eb.uot;i:e.teillilmeiethalyt observes I Mated that ether petitions to a eimfte r effect had been en- 1 that they contained three allega tions — Res', existing and ' increasing distress ,• secondly, Inc ill e rr eet ,sf the law of settlement ; and third, the injustice and ineque'litY of the s Ile promised on a future ociaaial to Pee se ystem of rating. nt them. COMMON LODGING -HOUSES BILL. The Hall of BILAITEiSS 1.41 Y, whoa apeleined to their lordships for Ere • on them so coon after his elevation, moved the sae of this bill. After a few wards from Earl Morro ' The Disk* of ARGYLL a:premeds hope that the bill would be Wended to Scotland, where in the principal towns the lodging-houses were, he said, as bad, if not worse, than they were in England. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE Paid, this bill, like every measure emanating from the noble earl (Shaftesbury), was entitled to the respectful attention of their lordships. The bill was then read a second time. MARRIAGES (INDIA) BILL. Upon the motion of Lord Hisovourox, certain amend ments to this bill were agreed to. BRITISH WHITE HERRING FISHERY BILL. This bill was read a second time. Their lordships adjourned at a quarter after 7 o'clock. ROUSE OF COMMONS.—TVESDAT, JVN 24. The SPLAIIII took the chair at 12 o'clock. The St. Helens Improvement Bill was read a third time and passed. METROPOLITAN WATER SUPPLY. Mr. MOWATT rose to sore that the standing or ders be dispensed with in the awe of the Metropolitan Water Supply (control of representative body) Bill. Ile hoped to be able to show that the promoters of the bill could not possibly have complied with the standing orders. The hon. member then went into a history of the exertions of the promoters to comply with the standing orders ; but owing to unforeseen obstacles, and to matters of form, they were not able to effect their purpose, although they did their best to comply with all technical and formal regula tions. He considered that he had made out a case which entitled him to ask the house to extend to this bill the same indulgence which had been extended to the other bill on the same question. Mr. W. I'ATTEN said the standing orders committee wished to have the bill before the select committee, but they found so many insuperable obstacles that they reluctantly abandoned their intention. The boa. member proceeded to show that the promoters of the bill had not entitled them selves to the relief prayed; that the bill was too sweeping in its objects, and that the notices which they had published for the information of the public did not accurately define the extent and nature of the objects sought to be attained by the promoters. It would be a perfect absurdity to have a committee of standing orders if a bill, like the present, violating every standing order, could be got into that horse. Mr. HUME said the real question was not about the compliance with numerous standing orders or otherwise, but whether the bill would give the means of a better sup ply of purer water to the metropolis than any other measure. Ile admitted the value of an adherence to rules and regu lations, but was it worth while to prevent a great public question from being fully considered and decided in order to adhere to a technical rule. Ile hoped the house would comply with the request to suspend the standing orders, as the public interest really appeared to require it. Mr. WILLIAMS thought for a slight inconsiderable omission of a technical form a:measure of public importance ought not to be defeated. Sir G. GREY would not say a word about the merits of the bills relating to this subject. He thought an appeal ought not to be made to government to pronounce an opinion on this question ; on the contrary, he considered it was tke duty of government to see that the decisions of the standing orders were adhered to, and more especially after the able and clear statement of the hon. member opposite (Mr. \V. Fatten.) lie denied having given any promise on the r aubject of the bill, because lie could give no promise on the subject, and certainly he could not, therefore, be charged , with having caused any disappointment in consequence of not having adhered to that promise. He gave no promise on the merits of this or any other bill. Had the bill come , on for second reading he should not have offered any oppo sition to that course. . . . . Sir B. HALL hoped the motion for suspending the stand ing orders would be withdrawn, es the feeling of the house was obviously against it. He would, however, remind the hon. member that every member of that house was aware of the merits, principles, and details of the bill in question. Mr. MOWATT, alter denying that the promoters by this bill sought to obtain extraordinary and compubory powers, as asserted by the hon. member (Mr. W. Puttee), to extin guish other companies, to supply water or to rate the inha bitants, withdrew his motion. After an explanation from Mr. W. Partz.N. the motion was, by leave, withdrawn. RULES OF THE HOUSE. Mr. FREWEi asked -- if there w ereani precedents for government business having priority on Tuesdays ? He had a bill which stood second on the orders for that day, and he had been surprised to observe that in the printed votes of that morning it was put down at the bottom. He wished to know if the right hun. gentleman (Sir G. Grey) had ordered the clerks at the table to put down to the bot tom a bill which had yesterday stood second? lle had ex amined the sessional orders, and could find no rule to justify such proceedings. Sir O. GREY said that when the house sat on the motion of government the government business was entitled to precedence. At these morning sittings, when met for the transaction of specific business, such specific business took precedence of any order placed on the paper. He believed the Speaker would concur with him in that opinion. The SPEAKER said that on Tuesdays, strictly speak ing, notices of motions had precedence °fortiori; but when the house was invited to sit specially, the special business had the precedence. Mr. HUME was of opinion that it was not competent for government to appoint 12 o'clock sittings, in order to obtain the advantage. It was never intended that govern meat should have the benefit of their own days and Tues- I days also. (Hear, hear.) Mr. W. PATTEN said that generally towards the end of the session, government asked the house to meet at 12 o'clock to discuss particular measures, and, of course, at such sittings these measures were entitled to priority. Mr. W. WILLIAMS remarked that it unfortunately happened that when they had a morning uttiug , a house could not be got in the evening. (A laugh.) The subject then dropped. PREVENTION OF OFFENCES BILL. This bill was read a third time and palmed. SMITHFIELD MARKET REMOVAL BILL. Sir U. GREY having moved the third reading of this bill lir. A. STAFFORD begged to protest against the mea sure, and expressed the hope that it would be treated with more care in another house. lie deprecated the hasty manner in which legislation on this subject had been con ducted, argued that no market could compete with the present Smithfield market, and contended that before any alteration of the site of the market had been determined on, there ought at least to have been provision made for pre serving the present market as an open space in the centre of the metropolis. This bill, he had no hesitation in saying, would perpetrate great injustice on the counties on the southern side of the river, and would have the effect of raising the price of meat. (Hear.) Mr. lIUME urged that they possessed no information to justify them in acceding to this measure. Government had determined to take into their own hands the supply of an article when it had been clearly experienced that they failed in everything of the kind they tried. When government took such a matter in hand, it became a job. Places were created, salaries were given, and the public interest was neglected. (lieu, hear.) This was the ease, with seareely an exception, as regarded every administration for the last fifty years. It had been the uniform advice of committees or this house, that government should not be permitted to erect works. The procedure of government on this subject was both rash and inconsiderate, and violated that great constitutional principle that municipal corporations should be allowed to manage their own affairs. The present inter• ferenee with the corporation of London could not be justi f ed. lie concluded by moving that the bill be read a third time that day six months. Mr.W.WILLIAMS seconded the motion, and complained of the irresponsible powers conferred by the bill on the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State had the appoint ment of the five commissioners, and had, besides, the con trol of these commissioners. Sir 0. GREY had hoped that, after the repeated deci sions of the house on the merits of the bill, its opponents would not have deemed it prudent to divide the house on the present stage. He denied that government wished to supersede the functions of the authorities of the city of London. Government had not interfered until the city au thorities had, after repeated offers, refused to take the question into consideration, and to do that which public re quirements had demanded. He hoped the house would ad here to the decision to which it arrived. Sir J. DUI said the right hon. bironet bad not put the question fairly before the house. So far from the city of London being indisposed to stir in this question, the city authorities were willing to lay out a large sum of money, and to make such alterations and enlargements as might be expedient. Mr. CARDWELL defended the bill, and showed that the committee, in 1809, complained that the area of the market was too small for the population of that period. That argument had since acquired greater force, in conse quence of the great increase of population. He contended that the committee had done its duty, and if they were to be blamed it was because they had imperilled a great public reform in their desire to consider and protect vested interests. Sir H. VERNEY said the hon. member for Northamp ton opposed the bill in the interest of the graziers, where's he (Sir H. Verner) opposed it because at present, when the graziers sent their cattle to Smithfield, they were at the merry of the butchers, and were frequently obliged to sell at a loss. What the graziers wanted was to have conve nient fields and sheds where the cattle which were not sold might be placed. Sir W. JOLLIFFE opposed the bill because it was to the advantage of the southern counties that they should have the cattle market in the centre of the metropolis, rather than it should be five miles to the north. The house then divided— For the third reading Bl Against it CHURCH BUILDINGS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. On the order of the day for the second reading of this bill, Sir G. GREY said the bill was founded on the report of a commission laid before parliament last year on the sub , divi•ion of parishes. The bill made provision for the endow ment of these sub-divisions of pari,hes in certain cases. One proeis:on was that the Church Building Com mimi,mers wo e authorised is certain cases to flx a scale of pew-rents. ,that provision was objected to last night b the hon. member . roe e Montrose, a n d w h en that objection was pointed out to lz.na he certainly thought it was a matter of great difficulty to effix pew-rents except by universal conscut upon pews wives had been already appropriated as free sittings for the poir. Tha t referred t o one c l ause of the bill. There were °the:provisions which could only be considered in committee. lie should state before they went into committee the enures he proposed to take with repeal to the claim* to wltie4 041100011 bad boa as ,