The Express. — London, England, 1847-04-22 00:00:00

Mr. AINSWORTH was surprised at the attack which hod been made ape him. (Hear, bear.) He did no more them several other bor. neemben who cheered at the hoe. number's proposal, and the reason why he cheered was, that he bed come sap inns the manufacturing diriricts, and he had set hard • single manufacturer or spinner say that they wished lira 'slot the house. (Hair, hear.) A disenedpn el em. length having ensued with respect to the flziog et • Eq for the third reading, it was finally agreed that it lima In peripemed till Friday, with a view of giving the government dams name some other early day. NAVAL PRISONS BILL. The hems having gone into committee on this bill, Mr. W. WILLIAMS said he expected from the present Secretary of the Admiralty that something would be done Vthis hill to effect a better treatment of the worst treated ass of men in the kingdom, namely, the sailors in her Mejeaty's navy. In feet, this bill made their condition Irate, fur it legslimed these acts of parliament which before were doubtful respecting the flogging of • sailor at the will of his commanding officer. The tyranny and eavrenies practised in the case of the sailor was much greater than in the case of the moldier. For instance, a private of madam was tried at Portsmouth for spilling his grog, which led to his striking the reticent ; and the court-martial, over which Sir William 'Parker,. one of the most distinguished naval officers in the service, presided, sentenced him to be hanged from the yer Larm ; while, the day after, a drummer of the guards was tried for striking the drum-major; and the court-martial, ever which the hon. and gallant member fur Middlesex presided, only sentenced him te twelve months' imprisonment. But the Court of Admiralty, te show their mercy, remitted the punishment of death, and directed that the man should be transported for seven years. Such wee one instance of the difference in the degree of seventy prac tised in beta services. Another sailor, who also was tried at Portsmouth he desertion, was ordered to Naive fifty holes, and to be confined for twelve months. In this case, also, the infliction of the lashee was remitted; but be thought some remedy should be applied to prevent theme abeam. By one of the ileums of the bill, a sailor might be sentenced to receive forty-eight lathes, or to be imprisoned for twenty eight days, at the mere will of one man. It was no wonder, when math was the state of things, that men were unwilling to enter the ravel service. By another clause, any person assisting • sailor to desert was liable to tranaportation for 14 years. Wu it right that a father, it might be, should be subriet such punishment if he assisted his son, wbo might have been forced from him by impressment, to de em ? Recalled en the house not to permit the defenders of their country to be so tasted as they might be under this biß. Mr. WARD oonsidered it most unfair that the preload opportunity should be taken to repeat attacks on the disel plane of the navy ; but these attack" were never so ultr ou the present occasion, when steps were taken, placed as e first time, by the Board of Admiralty, to correct the evil of which kis hon. friend had spoken. His hon. friend entirely misrepresented and distorted the whole scope of the bill. His hon. friend said this bill would legalise powers few which there wee no legal authority. There was nothing of the kind in the bill. Its object was to substitute imprison meet for corporal punishment ; and, though the bill gave power to imprison for 28 days, they all knew that that term of imprisonment would not be inflicted. Seven or eight days' imprisonment was the genteel period of imprisonment in the inky • and it was found to be the most effectual. In the navy the,'" were stronger reasons than in the army why the tars of imprisonment should be RS short as possible. But be the sentence of the captain what it might, it must have the previous sanction of the admiral or other officer in command of the station. He admitted that the naval system of the country was not free from blot, and that many things in it required amendment and alteration—(hear, hear)—and of late years a emit improvement had taken place in am formity with public opinion. No person was more remark. able for the kindness of his disposition than Lord Nelson, yet the list of punishments on board the Victory for fourteen mouths, from August, 11103, to the 31st of October, 1804, was toilets than 311. and the number of lashes inflicted was 9,392; whereas in 1844 the total number of punishments for the whole navy, with 30,000 men aft sat, was only 1,411, and the number of lashes 42,000 ; in 1845 the number of punishments was reduced to 1,020, and the number of lashes was reduced to 32,095, with an increased number of men. (Hear, hiss) This was an incontrovertible proof that the discipline of the navy, Mitred of going . on from had to worse, had taken that turn which public opinion in the country pointed out; and that the moral influence which the officers might bring to bear on the men was more resorted to thanunnecessary punishments. lie could assure his hon. friend that the promp'est attention was bestowed by his hon. and gallant friend near him upon the quarterly reports of the punishments in every ship, and that the Beard of Admiralty cloddy attended to every case of severe pun ishment. With these explanations he thought be might with confid nee ask the sanction of the house to the bill Col. T. WOOD said that in the case of the drummer to which the hon. member for Coventry alluded, the prisoner declared he was tired of soldiering, and that be struck the drurnoinjor for the purpose of getting himself transported. It war ex this account that he was sentenced to twelve months' imprisonment. He would, however, observe that he did not think any punishment which was not carried out in the pretence of the soldiers, would be so effectual as one that was Admiral DUNDAS said that, in the case of the sailor punished for desertion, the man had obtained an increase of pay, and there was no mason why he should take such a step. Captain PLUMRIDGE defended the memory of Loid Nelson final thecharge of anything like severity or oppres sion on board his ship. He recollected (as was understood) that the Victory had a sad set of fellows on board, who required • strict kind of discipline. Captain' PECH ELL exp r e s sed a hope that corporal punishment would soon be aed. He had hitherto voted retire abolition, except in the owe of the navy, where it was necessary to retain the power of administering corporal punishment until some substitute had been provided. With the quarterly returns now published, it was impossible that ally officer meld escape censure if punishment were impro perly indicted by his orders. Capt. FITZROY said it was necessary, at least, to re serve the power of inflicting a severer kind of punishment in the cal& than in any other branch of the public service. He was willing to assist in carrying out the measure, be muse it was founded on the simple principle of doing away with corporal punishment, as far an war practicable. As long as the government proceeded cautiously in this direction he would give them hie support. Capt. BERKELEY thought it desirable that the hon. member fir Coventry should adhere to facts when speaking of naval punishments. (Hear, hear.) The statements made by him were doing great injury, by discouraging persons from entering the navy. The hon. member said that the punishment ought to be taken out of the hands of single in dividuals, and confined to courts-martial. Is reply to this, be would remark that the Board of Admiralty had latey ordered two courts-martial on deserters, and the punish ment inflicted by those tribunals was ten times more severe than that which could be inflicted by naval captains. Mr. P. HOWARD thought that the great cause of deser tion in the English navy was the inadequacy of the pay. The wages given in the American navy were much higher, and he hoped that no false economy would prevent the Ad miralty from making greater assimilation in that respect between the two naval services. Mr. WILLIAMS hoped the right hon. Secretary to the Admiralty would coneenteto strike out the first clause of the preamble. Mr. WARD said it was impossible that he could anent to the hon, member's request. The legality of corporal punish. ment at the present time was undoubted. Sir C. NAPIER agreed with the bon. member for Carlisle on the subject of the payment of the seamen. The conriquenoe • of the present rate of payment was, that 40,000 or 50,000 British seamen were garaged in the American service. At all events, if they could not immediately increase the pay of the men, they might increase that of the petty officers, which was very little more at present than that of the men. The three officers whose salary should be raised were the car penter, the boatawaio, and the gunner ; and, were the sug 'ethos acted upon, there would be a greater inducement offered to the men to endeavour to raise themselves in the service. He thanked the Admiralty for introducing the measure, and believed it world do • great amount of good. The practice of desertion was now so common, that deserters were to be met daily on the road between London and Portsmouth, end no one thought of taking them into cus tody. He disapproved of the order of the Admiralty that no captain should inflict punishment, without first communi cating with the commander-in-chief, believing that it would tend greatly to relax discipline. Admiral DUNDAS maintained that the order was one of the brat regulations ever introduced into the naval service. Mr. HUME also defended the order. With the attention now paid to health and to the quality of provisions, they aught to seeore the very best elms of men for the naval ter vice ; and if the pay of the petty officers were not sufficient he agreed that it should be raised, and thought that would be better even than raising the pay of the common men. He felt certain that the neceneity which there would now be few inquiry preceding punishment would tend to introduce • much better order of men. He would suggest that rewards should be given to serjesats of marines, in order te place them in as good a position as serjesnts in the army. He would rather incur an additional expense than am, as the had seen , the best men leaving the navy. (Hear, hear.) The reason why so many left our naval service wan, that there was no prospect for an old sailor but that of misery and the poor-house. Mr. WARD said the subject of improving the pay of the petty officers had been fully considered by the Board of Ad 'surety, and he hoped a proposhion fur that purpose would be made in the next session. Nothing would give him more Veastire than to introduce a proposal for granting increased pay and honorary distinction, to petty officers and r tjeants of mnrincn ; and no one could be more desirous of improve ment in that revest than the noble lord at the head of the Admiralty. He wished to esplain, in reference to the ques tion of punishment, that one of the customs of the nn. 'had been for her Majesty to flx, at her discretion, the 1111201111 t of punishment, which had bees repeatedly rt rte by orders in council. The tendency of all past regulations had • how ever• been to restrict, instead of increasing, the amount of punishment. Capt. HARRIS thought that some increase might easily be made in the pry of petty officers this year, through the medium of a supplementary odious., The expense would not be more than 50,000/. or 60,0001. He also objected to the invent undefined state of the amount of punish went. The house then went into committee. Clauses I to f, were agreed to. Clime 7 occasioned discussion, and was ultimately post poned. The other clauses hryine been pawed, the hosts re- Itzti , it to b . , rceniced on Friday. SPANISH LEGION. I.e.ird G. BENTINCK withdrew the notice which he had given for a motion on the subject of the correspondenc- la la tire to the arrears of pay due to the British leal:m, and the NOTICL The Proprietors el the Do,* Nom (Ilooshig)aoil Empress (Keening) parrs ham been iodated, in mosequenee of the reyresentatioes from various respected gamier., to ara uliore St N.. 4, ROYAL EZOILASOZ-SVILDIS O4 , t owner of Camelia% and fr rating the Royal Bee-hasp, ia oddities to their other Mikes. This arrangement will sflned greater conveniewee to the nanserime oonsexions and friends of these marsh' Um City sad its emtwerd environs, who may beim to emoissaleste iatelligesee at interest end Milky: and a gewlinnew will Ire is daily attendance there to remise sash esmamodedisses. The dike will bo op= from Mae in the morning tall eight in the evening 515 •Avertionaeuts.—No. 4, Bschorirr• earner of ConsAill, frosting Ow Rot* Esolesoop ghe erpros. MAILS: The weerlead dosed mane, Me Mend Sea to the Mediterranean, =PAVi Wins India, Wog Keag, As., will be ands up on the ' Mile MI6 Ai* The mai km Viva o= ;f liebea. Idedelra, WM, end Gibraltar, be el male um ea the et the Path Airtl. The mile be N., WM den Tea Dlema's Land, and New Umbra wtil be mit up en the emainglis MI6 AMU. ne Meet tale menu Mr Ileatee. tioadema, sad he lieumelt, wit he mar livi t i the merle( Mar IA May. The ireetherA mile be Maltkenram. the Mies !abaft, ErmkAdsa,Oellse, Infle.limpAlwir Mak Os lostimmplon, .ia be mole up Mk the mendmp et*, May. The amib Re lathe Meth li m and the United 4astee, TM be made imp en dm we= theie w tday. The =lb he the Irmlia, the Rime Mete, Monte Video, Paw =elle, Illaftlas, owl Unman Amy will be made up ea the alba allt Mey. NIL tntr= TO CORRESPONDENTS. ils lassied far The &was, Leedom evolve mar, ISet tv I've °Week 11111 the day cf pubistlee. RIOR WATER AT LONDON.BRIDOE. Too DAV —MIII/014 a =IL yea 6 ; Mermen, 23 oIA. put 7. Toilkaarnt —lfni* 0 II& PIA 7 ; ammo. 6 6 rain- p IA A LONDON, THURSDAY, APRIL 22. AT the morning sitting of the House of Commons yesterday, after a short discussion, the second reading of the Hosiery Manufacture Bill was postponed for a fortnight. The report on the Factories Bill having been brought up, the question that it be received ori ginated a debate, Mr. HOME moving that it be re ceived that day six months, Mr. BROWN seconding the amendment, the other speakers in opposition to the bill being Mr. TRELAWNY, Mr. M. PHILIPS, Mr. B. R , COTT, Mr. TANCRED, and Mr. ROEBUCK. The gukers in favour of the bill were Mr. P. HOWARD, Mr. S. CRAWFORD, Mr. FERRAND, Mr. MUNTZ, Sir DE LACY EVANS, and Lord JOHN RUS SELL, who admitted that he thought the mea sure far less safe as to its probable operation, than if the ten hours' clause bad been struck out; be cause, as regarded the limitation to eleven hours, they had considerable experience in favour of that principle, but none as regarded the former. If the bill had restricted labour to the latter period only, the probability was, parliament would have heard no more on the subject, which might net now be the ease. The great argument against the bill was, that it would indirectly restrain the labour of adul t females and diminish their wages; but, though such might be the cue, he did not think it precluded the house from entertaining the question. That had already been done with respect to the prevention of adult females from working in collieries, which had had a most beneficial result. If the probable effect of the bill would be to operate as an income tax upon the wages of labour, was it not pro bable that the parties interested would have petitioned against it? But he had heard of none such, and although ho should vote for the bill with far leas con fidence than if it had been one restricting the period of labour to eleven hours only, yet ho did not see sufficient reasons for withholding his support from it as it stood. Mr. ROEBUCK strongly condemned the course taken by the noble lord, whose avowed reams for supporting the measure was, although he had use faith in its proving beneficial, because the world', men of the country had not petitioned phut it. The noble lord must know that interested perdu had inculcated into the minds of tke wcehlag classes the notion that the bill would not lead to a diminution of wages. They believed that, and therefore had not petitioned; the noble lord's support therefore was founded on error. This he must con demn as a most strange and unstatesmanlike pro ceeding on the part of the noble lord, who, when there were many . wavering gentlemen, hesitating to give their votes an favour of the evperiment, came forward as its prime mover, calculated as that ex periment was to affect the happiness and welfare of, millions of the people. The house then divided. when the report was received by a majority of 88 Mr. BROWN moved the introduction of a clause to the effect, that inasmuch as the restrictions imposed by the bill on the hours of labour, would limit the use of steam and water power hired for that pur pose,—that the agreements under contract for their supply should be subjected to a proportionate deduc tion in the amount of rent, to be settled by two *does of the peace, if the contracting parties differed about the same.—After some discussion, Sir R. PEEL said he could not conceive that the magistrates would be able to determine the amount of injury sustained, —that the contracts entered into must be considered as subject to such conditions as parliament might im pose, and being of opinion that the adoption of the claw would give rise to endless difficulties and heart burnings, he did hope the hon. member would not pre*, it. The clause was then withdrawn, as were others proposed by Lord EBRINGTON, in con sequence of their not finding a seconder. Lord JOHN MANNERS defended himself from a charge brought against him by Mr. ROEBUCK in his absence, viz., that he had said he supported the bill because the manufacturers bad obtained the repeal of the corn laws. He begged to deny that he had ever made such a statement in public or in private.—Mr. Roe , BUCK bad often heard it said that the bill was to be placed on the shoulders of the manufacturers because they had obtained the repeal of the cora-laws, and when queatioued on the subject he had said he thought he could point to a speeck of the ogle Vora to that effect, but since then he had satisfied himself that he was in error.—Mr. LEADER moved a clause providing, that in the event of any accident hap.pea mg to the motive power or machinery used is a factory, those who came under the restrictive spies tion of the bill should be permitted to work extra hour', in order to make up the ordinary period of daily labour of which they might be deprived in us sequence of the delay thus occasioned. After same observations, the clause was rejected by a majority of 63. The third reading of the bill was then nomi nally fixed for Friday, on the understanding, that is the interval the government would determine on an I early day for that purpose. The question of going into committee on the Naval Prisons Bill gave nee I to a discussion on naval and military punishments. Mr. W. WILLIAtts contrasting the incongruity of recent sentences by courts-martial for similar offences.—Mr. WARD admitted that the naval system was not free front objection, and that many things in it required amendment, but he must add that great improvements had taken place in conformity with public opinion. It was very desirable that in the navy, imprisonment, as contemplated by the bill, should be for as short a period as possible ; but be a sentence of a captain what it might, it could not be carried out without the sanction of the admiral or the senior officer in command on the station. No person was more remarkable for the kindness of his disposition than Lord NELSON, yet the list of punishments on board the Victory from August 1, 1803, to 31st October, 1804, amounted to no lees a number than 311, the number of lashes inflicted being 9,392, whereas, in 1844, the total number of punish ments for the whole navy, with 30,000 men afloat, was only 1,411, and the number of lashes 42,030; in the year 1845, the number of punishments was re duced to 1,020, and the number of lashes to 32,095, and that with an increased number of men. He could assure his hon. friend that the Board of Admi ralty closely investigated every case where severe punishment was imposed.—Mr. P. HOWARD thought that the great cause of desertion in the navy arose from the inadequacy of the rate of pay. Sir CHARLES NAPIER concurred in this opinion, the consequence of the inferior ree of pa th, 3: re as mp.cot.rerd from fortywith ttoh fifty me yf rho orica sand Englishbein that I men in that service. He thought if the Admiralty ought t y tha f t o r o f t t h h e e id He ttanked the Ad could not raise the pay o f th e men at present, t h ey b fil ut ce c r ,l; not concur in the I Admiralty order which took away the power ti e captain of inflicting punishm en t without firstrat from com municating with the Commander-in-Chtef, believin g that it would greatly tend to a relaxation of disci pline. Mr. HUME approved of the order, and was —.red to vote for an increase of pay to the petty .111 E tIPRE4B, doted by the_AdMralty and e` Intik& iropoddtkei to that effect would be made hi the next Benon. The bill then passed through committee. s, - rudtli`ii motion fiir an 'address to thd crown, for a commission to inquite into the English universities, having, on a former occasion, been post poned in consequence of the pressure of Irish busi ness, again stands on the paper for discussion. Ou a former occasion we expressed the opinion, to which we still adhere, that it would have been more ad. visable to bring forward a specific motion for the ad mission of dissenters, a matter both within the com petence of parliament and requiring its interference. The home is not likely to apply to the crown to ex ercise its prerogative without the previous assent of the minister, which we presume Mr. Cantatas has not secured. As it seems, however, to be a general understanding that nothing is to be done during the present session to which any party or person can raise any objection, it may be supposed that discus sion and publicity, rather than the attainment of any immediate practical result, form the object of Mr. Cultism's motion. In this point of view, it is perhaps convenient that the form of the proposition tendered to the house should be such as to afford an excuse for declining to accede to it, though we are far from sup posing that Mr. CHRISTIE framed it for such a pur pose. We are aware that many persons even within the universities are en the whole favourable to some plan of visitation by the crown, as the only mode of effecting changes which they feel to be desirable. In a recent number of the Oxford and Cambridge Review, a periodical of high church opinions, the issuing of • royal commission is warmly advocated. in the hope that it might extend the benefits of mni*- mic education to classes which are now excluded** it by expense, renew the energies of the proiseseld system of instruction, and above all diminish*. arbitrary power of the oligarchy of heads of benten. We have no doubt that all these aspirations would be disappointed if such a commission issued at present. The high church party, which, at Cambridge, is very feeble, at Oxford is, notwithstanding the popular opinion to the con trary, a minority, just strong enough to tempt a little feeble persecution. The governing bodies of Pm* universities arc altogether opposed to innovatiameven when it is in the wrong direction. They dislike high Anglican principles, both because they are new fangled, and because they are unpopular. The natu ral consequence is, that the high church party is in opposition to the academic oligarchy, and willing to avail itself of the foreign aid of the prerogative to resist its domestic adversaries. In themselves we should not regret the changes to which the reviewer looks forward. If education could be extended in its sphere of operation and im proved in its quality by visitatorial interference, there an be no doubt that it would be an advantage ; but at present we are not aware of any power which the crown possesses, or could obtain, either to extreme attendance on tho lectures of professors, or to diminish academic expenses. The constitutional reform proposed, the restoration to the senate and convocation of their ancient functions, would be, we believe, beneficial, but would not at the present time be proposed by the visiting body. The commis sioners, it must be remembered, who would represent the crown would be the nominees of the government of the day, and only carry out its intentions; and it is quite certain that the convenient moderation of the present academic administration would find much more favour with any ministry of recent times than the possibly inconvenient enthusiasm of a more democratic constitution. The late Cambridge elec tion sufficiently shows which class of authorities would be most open to official influence. Perhaps it may be thought that the objects which we have mentioned would form but a small part of the purposes of a royal visitation. It may be sup posed that the distribution of academic property might be re-adjusted by it, and, above all things, that the dissenters might be admitted by its authority. We believe that both suppositions are altogether un founded. The reviewer whom we have quoted exults in the belief that the religious tests of the universi ties will still be maintained, as they depend on the I Act of Uniformity, which the crown, of course, can not repeal, and that the colleges will be exempt from the visitatorial jurisdiction. In both cases he is right as to the fact. It is, at least, doubtful whether the subscriptions enforced can be dispensed with, except I by authority of parliament ; and it would be a strange inconsistency of the House of Commons to apply to the crown for a change which it can itself more properly originate. As to the other point, the corporate property of the universities is not large, and is strictly applied to its proper purposes, such as the maintenance of public buildings and collections, the salaries of professors, generally inadequate, and other necessary uses. The far greater revenues of the colleges are beyond the control of the crown, as visitor of the universities. It is indeed, also, visitor of some of the colleges, but generally by the chancellor. The commission, as such, must confine itself to the university alone ; hat is to say, to a very limited part of the complex bodies which make up Oxford and Cambridge. It is possible that more extensive changes than those to which we have referred might be open to a commission of visitation to introduce ; but there is a sufficient reason against its issuing at present, in the absence of any definite purpose or plan of alteration in the minds of parliament or of the government. . Almost all those who, under our aristocratic system, rise to the head of affairs, have known the universi ties in their youth under most unfavourable cir cumstances. They have generally resided, if at Cam bridge, as fellow-commoners, and have taken so-called honorary degrees. The colleges which with mean servility retain a distinction derived from times when noblemen and scholars occupied the relative position of gentlemen and footmen of the present day, for the most part teach future statesmen less than other stu dents of mere human learning, but impress high and low alike with the transcendent sacredness of rank. Again, the university, with unconscious irony, dis misses the favoured sons of nobility from her bosom in two years, while the commonalty are compelled to complete the regular course of three years. Two more =ul and flagrant abuses occur in no existing • n, but those who suffer most by them, and who would probably be the last to perceive the evil at them, dispose of legislation, and would direct the proceedings of a royal visitation. In former times aITOII , T and LAUD exercised the royal or arehi *sopa' power of visitation for definite purposes, good or bad. They had a distinct policy to carry out, and they used the visitatorial authority as the proper instrument to effect their objects. The statesmen of the present day have certainly no definite plans of academic change, and would neither be prepared to give instructions to visitors on behalf of the crown, nor be willing to entrust them with discretionary powers. We are not certain, however, that issuing a com =Melon to exercise the authority of the Queen as visitor, is the object of Mr. Crummy:B motion. If he merely wishes for a commission of inquiry, such as the charity commission or the health o towns com mission, to collect information and suggest improve ments without any executive authority, of course the pending remarks will not apply to it. If it will not Woe the power of a visitor, it will not be subject to the same limitations. It may inquire into the ad ministration of the colleges as well as the university, and lay before parliament any case which may seem to require the exercise of its omnipotence. That a new academic and collegiate constitution should be introduced by statute, is a contingency too improbable to be worth discussion at present : but on isolated points it might be well to call the attention of parliament to evils which call for its interference. A commission could not show more clearly than we and other writers on the subject have done, the falla cies and falsehoods on which the opponents of the admission of dissenters rest their case; but. tiny might give authority to statements which all persona concerned know to be true. Mr. CHRISTIE, if he does not obtain his commis sion, will, to a certain extent, have an opportunity of effecting the same object by his speech, and the dis cussion to which it may give rise. His great industry and perseverance have probably given him quite as full a knowledge of the subject as he could derive from the most authentic official blue book. lie will probably not be sparing in his de nunciation of abuses, and he will no doubt anticipate and answer the conventional inanities with which the members for the universities will meet his re marks. In the most important branch of his subject, the question of tests, we have no doubt he will Icon— • religions know how to deal with the ordinary • leroost preposterous, obstacle ire biligertment i. raised - by the no-poiery ebellier. If re ligious differences throw invincible difficulties in ibirwayoftesztal poor children in village schools, they not et least be thrust aside in dealing ;_srith Ole hillier education. A labourer's child Mind be taught some religion at his school, sr he will never learn it at all ; but the gentleman's , see, at 19, does not go to college to learn what faith he is to profess. If he was to go at the same age into the envy, or into a bank, or into &public office, neither his Wesel nor his employer would think it necessary to guard him against proselytism, by trying to keep him out of the company of dissenters or papists. It is to be hoped that logic, and Greek, and mathema tics have no stronger tendency than the account books of the clerk, or the waltzing and hunting of the officer to enfeeble the mind and render orthodox supervision necessary. We are tired of arguing so one-sided a irestion, but long experience teaches that a noisy portion of the public perio dically goes mad on the subject of popery ; and, which is a more serious matter, that many who retain their senses find it convenient to humour the delusion. If it is determined that neither poor nor rich Roman Catholics shall have facilities for educa tion, the mischief will be less to the higher classes, who can provide themselves with a substitute ; but the absurdity will be greater with reference to uni versities, than in the case of schools for the poor. We would not have suggested this difficulty, if there had been any chance of its not being rained. The next best course to evading resistance, is to antici pate, to meet, and to crush it. No spirit deserves to be treated with more respect than the spirit of self-government. But self-govern ment does not imply (as some of the par iah delegates who met at Marylebone seem to think) independence of all advice and control of superior information. A man does not the less govern his own health because he calls in a doctor to prescribe for him when he is sick. What would even Sir PETER LAURIE think of a friend who should urge him, when suffering from typhus, to throw physic to the dogs, to substitute mutton chops for gruel, and cold-without for barley water, inasmuch as his independence was compro. mired by submitting to the prescriptions and dietary of a centralising M.D. ? Lord MORPETH'S act is no more an inroad on the self-government of towns than a doctor's prescription on that of individuals. In both cases there are mischiefs to be removed which the patient shows his inability to cope with by con tinuing to suffer under them. These parochial dele gates talk ofcentral authority as though the rate-payers were to have no voice in the appointment of their commissioners, or town councillors. We have already exposed the utter inaccuracy of this representation. The greater number of important towns in England are incorporate. In these the town councils will, under the act, have transferred to them the powers now exercised by numerous and conflicting local boards. They will obtain a control over the material means of health and comfort which they have not at present. As far as corporate towns are concerned, the bill will change a limited, fettered, and imperfect self-government, into a complete, harmonious, and efficient one. The bill in these cases does nothing more than secure proper inspection of all plans of improve ments. The central board will give its aid in the preparation of these only where there is no com petent person on the spot to prepare them. It will require that plans be submitted to its judgment, thereby to give further security to the rate-payers that their money is not to be misappropriated. It is tree that inspectors and central board will have more to do in cases where local authorities are inactive or incapable. But is this for the disadvantage of the community? Can any one assert that local matters have, on the whole, been managed satisfactorily hitherto? If so, why the annual waste of life from preventible causes ? The parish may hug itself in perfect self-satis faction, but it is not the less a fact, proved by the registrar-general's returns, that about 136 persons die daily from removable causes of mortality. The houses of the rich may be clean, sweet, and well ventilated. They may think it hard that the vestry, or sewerage commission which keeps them so , should have its powers shifted, if only to another name. They forget that fever is no respecter of persons, and that the destroyer may, from his haunts of filth and miasma, enter their mansions of elegance and com fort. The rate-payers grumble at the assessments, but inquire little how the total is made up. They do not know, or do not call to mind, that for every de ath there are some twenty-eight sicknesses ; that every sickness makes its tem porary nest of paupery ; that almost every adult death leaves its widows rind orphans ; that the toil of so many strong arms is withdrawn from the national labour; that there are produced and pauperised in this way, yearly, in England and Wales only, more than 47,000 widows and 120,000 orphans ; that the waste in money from the loss of productive labour power is thirteen millions,from sick ness a million and a half, and from funerals nearly 300,0001., making up a total of fifteen millions. And the greater part of this loos might be saved by really efficient and stringent sanitary measures. By leaving things as they are, the loss is continued or diminished only by indirect causes, slow in operation, and uncertain in effect. Bat the parish tells us all this is nothing compared with the integrity of parochial boards. The name even must not be touched. Procul este profani ! " L'etat, c'est moil" said Louts XIV. " Self-govern• ment, is the parish," may the Marylebone delegates. Fifteen millions annual waste to set against the name of vestry ; for it is the name only that is touched ! The corporation in corporate towns, commissioners, two-thirds of them chosen by the rate-payers, in places unincorporated, will, under the bill, exercise fuller powers of self-government than the vestry does now. But it is objected we are to be controlled by a central board. In other words. mistakes are to be set right, jobs scrutinised and baffled, and the town to have the advantage of the best available engineering and medical skill to aid what it can itself supply of both. What is well planned by local skill, will be gladly accepted and cordially approved by central supervision. There is no intricacy in the matter. Levels are facts; so are outfalls. You cannot quarrel with contour lines, or fight trigonometrical formulae. Yet to set right a mistake in any of these, to point out a forgotten fact in hydraulics, or a mistake in the pneumatics of ventilation, is, we are gravely told, to destroy the Anglo-Saxon character, to break down the national independence, and to sow the seeds of ruin for the empire. An example is afforded by the St. George's meeting, held on Tuesday, of how little parish authorities think, and how little rate-payers insist on their thiukinF, of the poor and their con dition. The St. George a vestry consider that under Sir I. HOBROUSE'S act, the affairs of the pariah have been managed to the satisfaction of the rate-payers, while the rates had been diminished nearly two- thirds. We happen to have some evidence of the condition of St. George's, Hanover-square. Let us see what is this highly satisfactory state of things. Mr. Tory BEE, one of the surgeons of the St. George's and St. James's dispensary, shall tell us. From a summary taken in an average year, it apr ars: That the mean age of the living adults or heads of fami lies is at the lewd six years lower than the average age of the living adults of an agricultural populo•ion. But supposing they have the chances of life of the whole of the class of ae tisane living within the district, the insurable span of exist ence before them would appear, from the preceding returns of the actual expense. to be restricted to eight years and a half instead of upwards of twenty, Retained from the name age by better conditioneu classes, living in better conditioned tenements, in the same district, or than agricultural la bourers living in purer atmospheres in other districts, and in receipt of a less amount of wage,. even than those families receive who're applicants for the charity which you dispense ? Yes : and it I. proper to direct attention to the pecuniary pressure of the excessive sickness and mortality which render the families really objects of charity, notwithstanding the wages they receive. , Again, as to the supply of w seer which the bill will place under control of the elected commissioners : You have ineotiorted that, in visiting this claw of tit. , Po pulation, you find the wont of personal cleanliness one colla teral CUM of disease I—Decide•dy so. , * Has the action of want of cleanlines asa cause been shown by the effect if cleanliness in &baling it or removing it 1— Yes ;in the cases of porrir i eras -aid head and ring-worm in the children, and some innamnoations of the e) es—very common disorders among t them—which I have removed mainly by the strict enforcement of cleanliness and general ablutions. I believe teat a v..etety of diseases, slitt, aa alllctioi.• of she chest, rheumatism—which are tart gear rally considered to have any connexion with permaal cleanliness—are gisatly aggravated by the neglect of it. has to be fetched from inconvenient distances or otherwise ? —lt was only this morning that a patient stated that she could not drink the water that was supplied to the house, it being "full of insects." Patient* have said that they only drink water when xhey cannot get beer, he., the water 111 so had. I find that generally the water is in an impure state, sometimes having an offensive odour endt times it is, as they describe it, " thick," or muddy, very disagreeable to tne taste. They hove complained to me that they are often compelled to go to a distance to fetch water, became the water supplied to the house is so bad. Sometimes they have said that they put up with the bad water, because it is just 'shad in the neighbourhood. Have you observed how far the impurity of the water may have arisen from neglect to cleanse the water-butts have observed that the water-butts do not look very proper !veep tacks, being made of wood, from which the paint has de cayed, and the wood itself having decayed, no cover on the top, and a film of blacks and dust on the surface of the water. The water is generally laid on in the yard or the lowest part of the premises, and a supply is generally given three times a week, and, at each time the water comes on, the film of duet and blacks that has been deposited on the surface is mixed up with the previous accumulations. Even in a more open and less sooty and dirty neighbourhood, as on the surface of the Water Company's reservoir, in the Green park, the deposit of soot, or dust or dirt, may be at times observed, as a dark scum or carpet spread over it. One pa tient complained very much of the quality of the water taken from an old wooden butt. In respect to it I learned that this same water is used for making bread by a baker who supplies a great number of the poor. Since attention was directed to the subject by the sanitary report, I have availed myself of opportunities of making observations upon it, and the result is, the strong conviction that the . quality of the supplies of water, and the mode in which i s is received and kept in such atmospheres, influences the diet and health of the population to a much more serious extent than has hitherto been imagined. As to the state of the boueehold economy, have you ob served any effects apparent from water not being conveniently accessible or laid on in the rooms which form separate tene ments ?—I have observed the same water, which is very filthy from having been used in washing some clothes, used again to wash others. They . have told me, indeed, that they have done this to avoid the inconvenience of fetching water from a distance, and from the inability to carry the water up stairs when the rooms inhabited have been of the upper floor. My informants on this topic, it should be remembered, are patients, sickly people, weakened by sickness, and who cannot afford to pay for attendance. To the mothers who are debilitated, the carrying water up stairs is a very great exertion ; mothers not daring to leave a child in the room, have to carry the child in oae arm and the vessel of water with the other. I have had even sick children neglected and left dirty, and the excuse given has been the inability to fetch the water. Recently I have had a case of this kind. I have attended three children, two of them with scrofulous in lisromation of the eyes, the other of them with a scrofulous Affection of the throat; all of them rarely washed, and in an extremely filthy condition. The mother is a poor woman, who has been in a respectable condition, but she is now so fur advanced in pregnancy as to be incapacitated from going up and down stairs to fetch water. She continually de plores her condition of having neither the strength to fetch a sufficient supply of water nor the means of paying for it being brought to her. Again, as to drainage and ventilation : Supposing a complete ventilation effected in the upper portion of any of such houses as those you visit, but coo pools still allowed to remain on the ground floor and give off their exhalations, though those exhalations might be diluted and rendered less noxious; from the observations you have made on the tenements now ventilated, have you any rea son to doubt thatthe cesspools would still, to some extent, impair the general health of the inhabitants ?—I have no doubt of it; indeed, that is oae of the sources which it is absolutely necessary to remove before there can be any effec tual clue. Semi of the cesspools are in the cellars, and give out their exhalations from thence : others are in a yard, cloth to the door, which door is always open on account of the want of windows in the passage. I continually visit baths in which the smell front the cesspools throughout the whole of the house is so noxious as to be unbearable, and I have found the poor lodgers closely shut up in their mine, no air being allowed to enter by the door or windows, with the hope of excluding the offensive effiusia. When I have proposed to ventilate some of the rooms by means of the i window ventilator, the occupants have made the well /sanded objection, " We are afraid of any opening in the window on account of the bad smells which come up from the yard." I perceived at once that fixing the ventilator in the window would mtly have been the means of introducing the noxious air. When I have proposed to fix a ventilator in the door of the room, a similar objection has sometime s been rade : "The bad smells from the privy and the drain will wag got into the room by that way." " The smells from dr passage are often worse than those in our own rooms." One poor woman, labouring under extreme debility, and who attributed her illness to the had smells in the place, told me today that she could not go out of her room (a kitchen cellar) without feeling tick from the smells arising from the cesspool, and that it would make her still worse if any opening were made in the window. In places which are not overcrowded, and which do not need ventilation so argently, I have had cases of debility, headache, pains in the bead, and general demotion, which were attributed, and were correctly attributable, to the bad odours arising from the ceasponls. The patients continually complain of these smells. It is a common expression amongst them "We ewe some rent, hut as soon as we can pay it we s hall get away from this place, on accontit of the bad smells from the eeppool." The strong bear these stenches, but they take beer, which they consider necessary to counteract their effects. Were there generally sewers in the fronts or near to the houses which you have visited ?—ln some streets and courts there are nosewers ; in others, in which there are sewers, there are Pcareely any drains f rom the houses into the sewers, and the gullyholes are so far apart that the slope thrown out from the street-door mix with the dirt of the street, and very little of the fluid appears to arrive at the sewer. There are great complaints that the gullyholes emit very offensive What do you find to be the effect of defective ventilation, and the atmospheric impurity apparent ea causes of disease ? —The defective ventilation appears to me to be the principal cause of the scrofulous *Tenons which abound to an eller tnCnia extent amongst our patients. Again, es to the accommod.*: -- population : for the poorer In a statistical report made by Mr. Weld, en a house to house visi ation made, at the instance of Lord Sandon. for the Statistical Society in 184.5, it is stated that there were in the parish of St. fleorges, Hanover-square, 1,46.5 families of the labouring classes, who had for their residence, only 2,175 rooms end 2,510 beda. What do you find generally the state of the rooms which are so crowded I—Wretched, extremely close ; so close, that, for self-protection, I am oblige ito have the windows open during the visit ; they are not only close apparently front overcrowding, but they frequently contain noxious odours; the usual source of such odours, so far as it can be detain!, is sulphuretted hydrogen, arising apparently from tlmpfdey, and from the neglected drains. Odours from these water are frequently to he traced to the top of the house. In certain states of the weather they are intolerable even to the inmates, who are scarcely conscious of the existence of the ordinary odours. One cause of the defective ventilation of the rooms in these districts inhabited by the poor is, that the windows never open at the top. The opening at the bottom fre quently gives an inconvenient rush of cold air, which I have known to be productive of very bad results. The clothes of the poor people living in these places often contract such • smell, that I have known a patient who has remained a few minutes in the room leave such a taint in it as waa only to be removed by throwingopen the window, and ventilating it. And yet the parish of St. George's is in a "per fectly satisfactory condition." Taking the same view of the subject, so are most of the parishes in England. MR. Bnicirr is the only representative of the pas sions and prejudices of Crmby Hall in the House of Commons. No other member ventured to deny that superintendence of the educition of the people was a right and a duty of the state, and even his denial was hesitating and feeble, limited by exceptions and ob scured by doubts. The example of the United States of America pressed him too closely, and he could only plead against such a precedent that there was i not n the United States such an established church as exists in England. It would have been just as much to the purpose if he had pleaded difference of longitude as a reason why education should be the concern of the state in one country and not in th e other. The ministerial measure gives to the esta blished church no power, pre-eminence, or prero gative which it does not possess already; and we cannot understand by what logic nonconformist hostility to the church should be alleged as an excuse for the withholding of educational advantages from the general community. An anti-state church agita tion is intelligible ; it places a question in issue on which men can give honest opinion without any fear of being misunderstood, but such an agitation dis guised under another name, and availing itself of uncandid disguises, is neither very rational in its plan nor very fair in its practice. Let Mr. BRIGHT disestablish the episcopal church if be can, but let him not con-ign the youth of the country to igno rance, degradation, and depravity for the paltry pur -1 pose of directing a sneer against episcopacy, or a sar i casm against a paid clergy. In justification of his doubt of the rig h t of the state to interfere with education , _ Mr. BRIGHT is reported to hose asked, " Why had no statesman been yet bold enough to attempt that inter ference ?" Mr. BRIGHT must be singularly ignorant of English history, he must have taken little heed of the events with which he has been cotemporary, if he dues not know that such interference has not only been attempted but practised by English statesmen. To go no farther back than the time of HENRY VIII., WP find ERABMe N and the principal scholars of Europe, praising Cal dinal WOL , EY fur having issued a royal ordinance enjoining schoolmasters to institute their youth in elegant literature. The grammar schools founded in the reigns o f EDWARD VI and and of ELIZA _ . people ; and, in Ireland, immediately after the esta blishment of the Reformation, an act of parliament was passed enjoining that every beneficed clergym ao when inducted to his living, should take an oath l 4) keep, or cause to be kept, a school for the instruction of the people in the English tongue. But we need not multiply . ancient precedents ; every statesman who has been in power in England since the com mencement of the century has been a b o ld enough to attempt this interference," which Mr. BRIGHT regards as some portentous n o . velty. There has not been a session since the union in which grants have not been made in aid of popular education in Ireland; Lord STAN. LET'S establishment of an educational board in that country was " an interference" of considerable meg ;Allude, which was warmly supported by those who now resist a far more limited interference by the edo. cational board of the privy council. The establi s h- Moot of the London University was another inter ference ; the founding of schools of design woe another; and the effort to open the universities ef Oxford and Cambridge to dissenters, supported, if we mistake not, by Mr. BRIGHT himself, will, we trust, be another of those salutary interferences which Mr, BRIGHT imagines that no English statesman has h a d courage to attempt. We cannot justly complain of a gentleman's neglect of history who dues not com : prebend the import of his own actions. Taking it for granted that Mr. BRIGHT has fairly I expounded the voluntary principle, as held by non conformists, we are at a loss to discover how the : government measure in any way meddles with that principle; it leaves untouched the regulations adopted by the two great voluntary educational establish. ments, the National and the British; and Foreign I School Societies. It sets aside no rule which colon taries have adopted, and suggests no regulation which it is compulsory on them to adopt. The complaint of the anti-education dissenters, in truth, amounts to nothing more than this, that the minutes of council recognise the established church as an existing fact. Now such an existence may not be very acceptable to some nonconformists; endowments may be odious to voluntaries, and an ordained clergy unacceptable to the followers of GEORGE Fox; but feelings do not change facts; there the church is, and there it hsa every probability of remaining, at least lor our time. To say, as has been virtually said by some of the wise men assembled in Crosby Hall, first remove the esta blished church, and then discuss the question of na tional education, is not one whit wiser than the child's proposal to wait for the sky to fall before making an attempt to catch lark... The motive, of course, is obvious. It is desired to represent the ex istence of the church as inconsistent with the pro grass of instruction ; but, unfortunately fur the suc cess of this sapient contrivance, the church has got out of its false position, and demands, in relation to education, only " a clear stage and no ;savour." But we are told that this measure ought to be viewed with suspicion, because it has been favourably received by members of the establishment. If this principle be correct, dissenters should have quittedthe Bible Society, so soon as bishops and clergymen gave its principle their sanction. If this principle be cor rect, the authorised version of the scripturis ought at once to be rejected by nonconformists, seeing that it emanated from church authority. " Everything of which bishops approve must wrong," is an apho rism which Mr. BRIGHT can hardly adopt in its full extent without making large sacrifices of his common christianity. We regret that the hon. member fur Durham has taken such an isolated position in parliament. He may, for aught we know, prefer the cheers of Crosby. hall to the applause of St. Stephen's, but we fear that such a choice will greatly limit his sphere of usefulness, and greatly diminish that influence which his previous career deservedly procured for him. We respect the courage which induced him to stand alone in the assertion of the most untenable of pro- positions, but we lament the precipitancy which led him to adopt conclusions contradicted by all peat history, and even by his own experience. From the first we have regarded the ministerial measure as experimental, and have looked to the ex perience of its working for the correction of its imper fections and its deficiences. It confessedly does not possess that theoretical excellence which ought to challenge and receive unqualified approbation; and we do not regret that it has been subjected to very searching, though not always to candid, criticism. But we arc much, and to endure much P , re f P o n r red the th ree:t e e n :mo m and establishment of that great fundamental princi ple, "the duty of a state to provide for the education of citizens, and the right of citizens to be educated by the state." To that principle, by whomsoever main tained, we give our cordial support, for it is the very key-stone of civilisation, and the only ground of hope he the intellectual advancement and moral elevatioa ad the British people. On the details of the form and mode in which that principle may be best applied we differ from many of its supporters, and they differ from us ; but we look to time and experience for the deci sion of the minor points at lane : it is impossible long to mislead en educated and intelligent people. If jobs be attempted, the diffusion of knowledge will aid their exposure ; if patronage be per verted, the spread of intelligence will help the detection of the wrong-doer ; if power be aboard, instructed sufferers will know the exact source of the evil, and thus have advanced more than half way to the discovery of the proper remedy. If all the remote contingencies with which perverted in genuity has menaced us were the strongest probabili ties, yet still, such is our confidence in the power of knowledge, and of truth, which it is the province of knowledge to afford, that we should still accept this ministerial measure, confident that the results d national education would baffle and defeat all the crafty devices by which it might be attempted to ex , rupt its administration. The proceedings of the French Chambers, however important at home, have little interest for a toner public. The futile and illusory debate on the pm position of M. de Remusat, to remove placates from the chamber, was continued on Ifonday id Tuesday. M. Duchitel, on the part of the gores* . sient, expressed the most decided hostility to the measure. Its fate in the chamber will easily la divined, when it is remembered that its object is te remove 200 government placemen from chateaus* , consisting in all of 459 members. It is clear that, ex' cept by some extraordinary pub'.ic excitement cud doors operating on the chamber within, u walk case in the English Reform Bill, this measure trillnot be carried. It must be confessed that ss yea there are no manifestations of such an ea:Sternest. The enormous corruption which is spread tbrughost the entire population of France by the centralised patronage exercised by government, combined with the operation of the law against public meetings k political purposes, seems likely to prevent, for a klf time to come, any great popular movement directed* parliamentary or electoral reform. Contradictory reports are in circulation u to ke intentions of government respecting the embassy et Madrid. Some of the opposition journals affirm that the Duke of Glneksburg is to retain the functices ambassador extraordinary and plenipotentiary lk duke is a young man of twenty - seven ; sode Tilt rand, his first secretary, twenty.three ; M. de Tour d'Auvergne, his second secretary, twenty-tan his that attache, M. de Guitaut, a near relative Count Bressou's, a youth of twenty. It is afoul that to place in such bands the French diplomacy at Madrid, in the face of such a minister as \l. Nem can only proceed from the intention of s urrendene4 French interests in Spain for the present, giving I 'l to English influence, and resting satisfied with Wirt accomplished the Montpenaier marriage, and 111 ' 4 obtained the dower. The reported visit of the Emperor Nicholas ee Paris is again contradicted. Le Slide observes that the cabinet at peek ° directs all its energies to cultivate a good tint standing with the court of Vienna. It is ttsid the Austrian cabinet has intimated its fixed kW mination to intervene in the affairs of Swi tssrhsd and that M. Guizot has propo sed th a t the inter' tion should be common. It been reserved , mr ' Le Sie , ele, for our time to behold a French soldk and an Austrian sentinel mounting WO W at the gates of a Jesuit's convent. The result which we long since announced our Paris correspondence respect i ng th e Para ea: Lyons Railway Company has en.ned. At` the meeting which took place on Monday, rvrri_. which will be found elsewhere in our columns , it announced that unless the government intervened , tir3,' IIIfyENITitO, 4PR11 , . 2s. 1847.