The Express. — London, England, 1851-05-24 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. ! lima they spoke the prisoners,and,whilst sympathising with them in their sufferings, pointed out the certainty of their being exposed to guater temptations on board the convict ship, or In tae foreign country to which they might be transported; and at the same time recommended them, by prayer and reforatatioa, to endeavour to attain their pre sioas character aad position. It was undoubtedly their duty to ponisli as well as to reform ; but they were bound to take care, when men were sent to their prisons, they should not leave these prisons worse than when they en tered. (Hear, bear.) Separate confinement without labour was a much 12,ari.1 punishment than separate confinement with labour; and be had been frequently solicited by those who had been removed from the latter to the former state to have them sent back again to the confine went with labour. But, viewing all things by the light of the experience which he had had of that prison, he should 1 say that, whiist he considered IS months' confinement too much, he should also admit that nine months were hardly sufficient. (Hear.) The Earl of CHICHESTER (who, for the greater part, was inaudible in the galler)) was understood to ssy that confinement for a longer period than nine months was both dangerous and inexpedient. Earl GREY explained. The intention was, to make every convict sentenced to transportation go through an or deal of 12 months' imprisonment. The subject seas then suffered to drop. PAPAL AGGRESSION. The Earl of HARDWICKE presented several petitions, from various parishes in Cambridge, against the papal ag gression. REGISTRATION OF INSURANCES. HOUSE OF LORDS.—FILIDAT, MAY 23. Ile Lone too ß PETITIONS P Ca.sventrant kESENTED. his seat at five o'clock. Parts. Aonnitasiog.—By the Duke of RICHMOND. from a greet many plans, against papal aggregate°. testament srio • or AmyitAScrai BILL.-117 the LORD CHANCKLIAIt, from attorneys, ',plait this bin. The: noble awl ',anted lord intimated his dissatisfaction with some of the clause. of the bill. Lori CAMPUSLL felt the deepest disappointment at, anthem he was likely to meet with opposition ha a quarter where he expected to have had assistance. Lu.ll YEVEItsHAM said the noble and learned lord was vrroag iu as he had done. that the bill was as generally approved of by their lordship*. The appeals ; tom to thee Sid did net alone proceed from attorneys. He, ' fur one, meld not give the measure his support. hod IILACMONT thought the totar.44: taken by the uoble and learned lord on the woolsack we. scarcely u fair one. The bill had emanated from a commission appointed b. her Majes• three y.ears ago to consider the eubject. 1 he noble an y d learned lord had sat on the ...sleet committee id th-re only objected to the clauses about plans and L:apg, which (lion was removed by the adoption of hit ,girestiuns. The noble and learned lord did not object to ,y other part of the bill, which lie ought to have done, if I. • then entert otr.erl other objections to it. It was evident from the oleotvations of the noble lord opposite (Lord I evershaive, and the petitions which had been pre,..r.ted I om attorn, s . against the bill that they did not understand es merits. Th. LORD CHANCELLOR vindicated himself against ch-orite of having acted unfairly. lie attended the Staitteo on the sicsmil day of its Pitting. and stated that be was roufident the plan of registration by map. was utterly impracti: able; hut he hut not been a 114.4 to attend argliut443l). If a plan could he devised to; registration e bids %nein elf rt the object proposed he would give it hie st support. It was easy to pmpose I, gal reforms, but if Lolls were to he brought in imperfectly framed the author. • 1 them etrild n.lt es n et they would receive support. I hi., LAI he thoo.;lit would mystify titles and increase expensi unless it efee t-el its object, when, he granted, it would be a good and u • -fie measure. Alter a few words from Lord Beat - ono,. Lord t:RAN %VOICED expn—cel his approbation of the b3l, and eonsliated some of the objectionsof the Lord Chan• senor to it Lord CA .lI'BELL moved that tho committee on this bill stand adjourned to Friday neat. Their lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—Fiumy, MAT 23. The SYILACIR took the chair et 4 o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Lords amendments to the Shrewbbury and Bridg north Turnpike Itnad, Bill were agreed tn. The following bi•ts were read a third time and passed : Bir - *ant Imr Turupike Roads, iinningi. iprovement, Malmesbury 1.. Warrington and Altrineham Junction Railway, Waventy Valley Railway. TM following bilk were considered :—Deo Standard Restoration. Great Central Gas Consumers' Company. PUBLIC BUSINESS. PETITIONS PRESENTED. ECCLEiLMICAL TITLLI AASEIIPTIoN Biet.—By Sir T. VBRIEN and Mr. OTLAHERTY, from Galway - Mr. J. O'BRIEN, from Limerick; Mr. GRACE, (6), from Roscommon; Mr. CORILtLLY, from Meath and KU-, Lanny; Mr. F. FRENCH. from Roscommon; Sir P. NUGENT, several from Westmeath; Mr. REYNOLDS, from Dublin, Cavan, Wicklow, Tyrone, Kilkenny, Donegal. Wesford,:lcrinanagh, Monaghan, Down Queen s County, and Clare; Mr. SCULLY. from severa l places in Tim rary ; Mr. M. !SULLIVAN, from Kilkenny ; Mr. KEOGH, from Westmeath, Roscommon, King's County, and Galway. Mr. MON'ELL, from Limerick ' • Mr. M. J. O'CON . NELL, from Kerry ; Dr. POWER, three from the rotary of Cork; Mr. M. BLAKE, from Galway; Mr. J. GREE.•ii, several from Kilkenny; Mr. MOORE, from Down, Tyrcem Roscommon, and Donegal; Mr. GRATTAN, from Kildare , and Monaghan; against the bill. Retionics Hoesea BILL.—By the Earl of ARUNDEL, from Ireland, against the bill. Ititolen Disuse—By Mr. C. LVSIIINOTON, from Laneashire; Mr. BRIGHT, from Lancashire; Mr. Alder man KERSHAW, from Lancashire ; against th- hill. RaLtotors HovsEi DILL—By Mr. BL.tKE, from Gal way ; and Mr. J. O'CONNELL, from Kerry ; against the bill. ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. On the m Kinn of Mr. C. Lewis. it was agreed that the house should at its rising adjourn till Monday. 1 TILE C.tl'E OF GOOD HOPE. i Mr. ADDEB.LEY wished to ask the Under Secretary of State fur the Colonies whether the last paragraph in the appendix to the Blue-balk just presented upon the forma tion of the Oraiot River sovereignty was all of the official i orrisponelence upon the suspended formation of the Cape constitution w:iish it was intended to lay before the house ; also, if the house would be informed of the extent to which lac Governor of tke Pape was now borrowing front the English treasury on the credit of the revenue which he might lie able to raise if he could get a legislative counal to . acts., under him. GUANO IN AUSTRALIA. Earl GREY stated, in reply to the Duke of Itichmend, that a ilsososit of guano bad been dist-4111'nd on the ems: of Western 'A ii• [radio, and that am. sport duty of 2/.los. per ton h boon laid on it by the local 4overniment. The noble also stated that be thought the duty tan high, and that I.' b a d . ea t a despatch to t►e (lmsornor of South Australis tit siring him to nature the duty t.l If. a ton. PENTON VILLE I'll I SON. The Itishop ,(UIVOILD said he wi.hed to put t quee n,* to the nolo:e earl (Gni) on the nel.n. et of the altera tions whiele had taken place in the management of Pennon- Tale maim, TL .t primn was tint totabli.h..l as an exp.- trent, owl the prmeiple which was laid down for the 4. martins of the 441414111144 was this-that the persons wbo were to be e, ontimal in Pentonville ghoul.' nut Ire who were iecluransl in critic. There was to he a careful veleerion of criminate, and they were to continue: in the per's, for 40101 t • AO an to give the experiment a fair teal. Molter. were or conducted for four or lire year+, and there was ai mewl, o verage niece.. a. could he expected in the tins. Non doubt thete was eongiderable capes* it. carrying oat the experian. nt ; but the nation lid ant go u.l4e that expo neliturr, b canoe it felt that it wa. it. bounden duty to perfect that great system The question was how far it wa. poe.ible Lo worbisie ti, tae separate elem. sit. of puni.hing the eon . letel and 441'041414W theta- WIO tbcr tire 011 • was not likely 1., defeat. Ile• other, by leaving the toned- unpuni.h. el or I unreformed. The number ref ea 1. in I'. Imoisille was 1114 eery great, 114104 ooe:y suo, ah• fa 44 for 1404411311014 had 2:100 for li., it convict pophlatiun. The report which was laid 011 01: tohle lan year remarked thot conaiderahle alteration. had I Men place in the management of Penton % rile rim.. and that the rule awl restriction ddel down by air J. Woken a- 4:4 the number of tints that persona aces .114444141, 141111 tire ate or the erinnu els, 14-44 111.4144ird. Nosy of item aim were • nt 14 Pentatonic had leen in prwn t e .• tense. , :4414114 /144 limes, 444111.1 tines, ;nod wine vs n noteen and twenty •. In the ne xt joker, crirninate WllO 111111 0 wee preen ..1y tran ported to tail Ihemen . 4 Land no the a net time...l'ow worn erviet adiniowdration of th -,t . moony, r e d a 100, after their noun to dn. tountry, had sub , tied then...dot • 1./ punishment by loreakieig the law, were at 10 l'slotooll In ..Giother a:tenant was ILA wherea. the entuinal, lie itiforioon“l foe 12 or month., in order to test the ardor fairly. M. v were not kept fur , liloft item In a • which ea raid afford no heir crimple .9 what the .sees,, tooth! to (of theta. A third paint to which be ol t.. tall attention •.es the place el oleo ti•oation, to a hoo le thew po. roma a, sent alter they left the primes. 'lle. oloj. et of the Pt utronville 41441114 444 to give the pursuer-, after their term tot probationary punishment capon 01, a fair start either he re or in the tutu- , nos; het Gm ~cyst lead 144 it let of. There were us veld to the York to Poorti..wl 1/4144011. and 101)' Itentowls or the. , who, pas, el through the peiwn, -le ow- rug an entire thong, of .y.tein. ru.r.:y it was not carry ins rat the intent a ith winkle I ' , i.t..niilly 14144.0 W 44 4 :44141414 01.4 4104441 tint had unelergoone its reforroworry to-..joins shool.l he expooal to new centrals:ohm itJ ...we of th.• 1.114•1•4 he had 14444411 i What be wished ' ins know wen wledlier the xpe.dment was I/ b: algeneloned, or curled out iii it. integrity - whether the prima era. to he ahem:owe! an experiment, ant wow to la. ft 44141041 a. a COMMIS p 44041141.• ? 'I hers woo :mother alteration from the 06044 /711!4.411 be' a Weft 1444141-04 Were al Ply 44 Wide r the part of their proloationary puiii.leineut by wo it rth. gang. in Portland, Lterniuda..or eleenhere. 'ow, thd., woo an entire departure (non the original meets, which must be fetal to it, for it was the very opposite . at the n •In trate ryfurntatory diecipline. If they j ware esnidooyeel on public work., rationed to the, por'dic eat • as a part of their poomlow eit, they wont feel it t • be n negradotoom , and if a .1, gr ordetlon. it motet don • ...I. their srtt re•peet which it was the ehe e et of the diwipline in Pentonville ineukate rpm. them. lie wan itoloe..l to Ming this wohj forwanl at the instance of two profes sional met of high atanding, alto lee :e :amongst the t.r.t orisimiassers of Prestonville Prison. :aid who mid that the arverrent wa. practkally abenden, d Ly ;he isherotheis which had been introduced, and width he Led rated to the le. re (1 1 ear, hear.) 11.:Y 0000 l it wag true that I`. Won ville -prison was now ea mitred on a did Tent firming than a hen it was eennller. .l on the light of an reperitnent. As ',tat .14 it waseusnoidered m the light of an taperer on. with a kw .1 anent:doting whether the ey.tem or upstate 141111 7 1111114114 401:4414 to lon grael.4ll, 1010114.41 or not, it wa. vette ?aria that a particular et on of eriniimel brould be whaled I. a the parpern of ear- n sot that colleen...let ; hat nlm re it ceased to be an ex- perisinit, when it eras to 1.. made to work in connexion a , ththeSew.ratluri.pruel.nc, utth, lountry, it was hint to I.• regarded se • place fora kw se hit erinunals, lout as • place for criminals gem r.oll v. ((He ar.) it had sow cea•sal ro Man experiment, and diet% fort it was MR to be carried' mot with a .i. 44 40 a few select sad withal .peclasewoof their' . Irina' population. It wan now the policy of her Moje.ty'. government - a policy *Melt he tight fitly say, j Other her the debate. in parliament, met with the approlutien of parliament -that. a. far a. posible, .en ry em4444:41 an fenced to transportation should pas. period. more or 1. °. Orettelltillt to cirennedanecs. in ..'pirate confinement Is ludo hr mukne eat that ',maiden.. Tit. It wa true that p. rams returned from tronnoort it:on anal wen• eon ve ted again ; that old lama we re. ..-nt t ntrville, but he wan observe that this no. 4 . 0.44 of oriminal. ahem it s .. most dmirable to subj.-et to wparate imprisonment. .oh with a view of pn•eenting rent troon ....ntaminatin,r to • moods of other., and of torturing in their own rude tho wed ealutary ..sien. ar. hear.)) There was iso part of the punishment -a much .Iremleel as that of miitary confinement It wag a punishment ao awfully se- a re that nor It. unxii sod 1),. Ft rgumn. the medical roinningeono re, reported that it .33 not .mfr to subject • -.vies to it for a lengthened period without looking after t I in. They hid an instance of its Ai, ts in the C3.l` .1, 'ewe men who were subjected to it for 20 months, and ado ore completely broken down in ho.elth and spirit.. It es not the intention either of the ce.scrnment or of par.; losinent to carry the eystetn to an , %tent that would lead to •soll congruences. ((year, In or.' When men went sr :tough this punishment it wa. uo that, fur the ...- To as elms of offences, the re shouhl be northing mom. at • Plan wa. sentence .I to tr.'s...perdition for wan- ughter, that differed from eo.ly in some int. ' p. eruptible degree ;it would non dot s a t • him at liberty ...I send him to a colony wh, re he would he chic to earn higher wages than he could obtain at home some therefor.. were sent to the hulk.. and 'ore were sent I h. Portland and other edabli.hnto ut.. They were thus, 10 lee(' in a situation n• then. ass. •oine stimulus given •'. hope from punning weal roodu. t. , orbited with an s; •orehenser of brig sent hack to oolitary contluenwnt it tl y miaresiducted themselves. Ile ielmitteel that the ay o no of floating promo. was a bad one. and that r long as they ratitucal it would never be pet felt. (Ileru.) - But they could only get rid of that sync= gradually, and his roalit hon. friend at the head of the llono. I). pertinent was n's king er ny exertion for that purpose. A .nin of 30,00 M sag employed with a view of maktug impnovementa in the • menet establiihneents at I libraltar and Bermuda, and he hoped that before many year. they be able to do away with the floating establislnuents. The key-stone of the s% gem at Portland, Gibraltar, and 11. Tmuda. was the fear 'wing sent buck to separate puni.hrucut. (Hear. hear) 'I he experiment of Pentonville had answered all the pun pos.. for which it was established. Aud so far were they tr .01 'Muntenia ; that establishment • that the variation now made was adopted for the purpose of earring out the plan toot OS es experiment, but us a system tote made applicable to the general cowriea of the country. ,11...er.) the Iluke of ItICIISIOND saU he had spent many Is ones, during the peers he was a rommiesioner, of each day ! rot the week en the Pentonrille l'risen, and inquired dih gently into the condition of its inmate., together with their , . rime* and their position. in life previous to their departure out the pith of honesty ; and after that expertise*, he os prepared to ray that he considered the period of 13 trourr' probation, wider the old system. too much. thr ee. r. he was net prepared to my whether the new system orked better or worse. This be 1110144 ray that • when he aoe In the habit of visiting Pentoneille Pei-on, he found it ro..e sorry to recommend that the priientn should work in association. He, in coon( :ion with the other courfesjonees, frequently had the prisoners brought into the yard in manes rind seventies, and bad their masks removtd, on which or _Lord J. RUSSEL'. said if the hon. gentleman had looked at the votes k: would have seen that there were two sets of viper., one relating to the Orange ltiver sovereignty, the other to the Cape constitutiou. lle had evidently ail vetted only to one. One of these sets of papers had 'win delivered ; the other, which being more voluminous took a long. r time to prepare, would ho delivered in a day or two. Ile did not very well understand what the hon. gentleman mean! by his last liut,tion. Sir Ilarry Smith was, as the house well knew, endeavouring to protect British subjects is Katfrari I from such murderous attacks as bad over whelmed many of the colonists. lle was now fully em ployed in that duty, and he (Lord J. Russell) thought thai. Wo ho-toe could not desire to embarrass hint when he was endeavouring to protect British subjects. Mr. ADM:I:LEY said he wished to know whether or not the money paid for civil salaries and fur current co pens, beyond what the governor could himself obtain %.,t to be puid out of the English treasury, or whether Sir Harry Smith had the power of borrowing in the absence of a vote of that house ? Lord J. RUSSELL said he would snake inquiries on the subject. lie was not aware of any sums having been bor. rowed. EPISCOPAL REVENI . ES.—ItIETROPOLITAN WATER SUPPLY. dampl to Sir B. !LILL, V Sir V. GREY said the schedule on which the Metro politan Water Bill was founded would he presented saw days before the second reading. The return relating to the revenues of the bishops hail been resented that day. BUSINESS OF TB F. HOUSE. Mr. BRIGHT said he had noticed that on that day a numb% rof the government had at ten minutes past four o'clock moved the adjournment of the house to Monday next. Now that was a motion which was usually made after the private business. end often served as an opportunity for questions and short discussions, sometimes extremely valu able. Ile wished to barn from the chair whether the usual practice watk ii. lats.e than s i tiiitm,aotrikim which con bee n p ractise d on consistent with the rnitsof t l i tt; evening. The SPEAKER said that there was no rule fixing a particular time fir the motion. Neither did he think it would be very r, :tuba practice for members to ask ques- tions Gordis purpose of getting up discussions on subjects nut on the paper. There would be no use in gising order, of the day pr.esilenee over notices of motions, if the bust nes. of the goseninunt were to be delayed by mere UN& akal questions gut up for the purpose of raising discussions. j Mr. persisted in thinking that in the absence a a positive regulation the ordinary practice should be taken as a rule. He hoped that the practice of which he had coat pLaitst.4l would not betome a rule. 31INISTER5 MONEY IN IRELAND. Mr. REYNOLDS gave notice that on an early day he wouM move for the production of the evidence taken ',fore the .epee: committee, with a view to moving for leave to bring in a bill on this subject. . j ROCHESTER GRAMMAR SCHOOL. Mr. mow Art asked a question respecting tho respondence which had taken place between the dean smi chapter of Rosin-ter Cathedral and the ecclesiastical 001110 miss,on, relating to the Rochester Grammar School. Sir G. GREY said that he had asked the hon. member to postpone Ins motion on the subject, in order that inquiries might be made at the evelesi.utieal commission. Such in thuiries had been made, and h e (Sir G. Grey) was informed at there was no correspondence in existence, excepting unreisersed statements made by the dean and chapter re spotting certain charges brought against them be Mr. Vt"his ton. These cammumeations had been simply acknowledged, and 111correspondeace had arisen. Ile was of opinion that legal procetslings being pending, it would hardly be right to produce documents of such a nature. Mr. MOW ATI said that that objection was now at an end, as the I. gal proceedings had terminated. Sir G. GREY was nut aware of that fact. Mr. MOW.tTT then - J. notice that oo been pirated from the hon. and learned member for Mid karst. The answer of the noble lord was that it was • smatter of notoriety, and had appeared in all the newspapers. Did the noble lord mean to say that they were to legislate at newspaper information ? (Hear, hear.) Why it wee only the other day that he (Mr. Duncombe) had read a letter in the Times purporting to be from M. Manini, as head of the central democratic committee in London, and there was, moreover, an article in the Times commenting severely on the letter. Now, suppose the noble lord had brought in • =mare for the expulsion of M. Martini founded on that letter, and any one asked him what was the pretence ? The noble lord's answer must be that he had read the letter in a newspaper, and yet after all the document turned out to be • hoax—a perfect fabrica tion from beginning to end. (Laughter.) Was there any reason why this apostolic letter signed Larnbruschini might not also be a hoax ? (A laugh.) The first clause provided that all titles under this letter should, be unlawful and void. Now, he denied that that letter con ferred any power, title, or preeminence on these bishops. - There was not a single word in it about the Archbishop of Westminster, it named no names, aad con ferred no titles. The title of the bill was a bill to prevent the assumption of ecelesiastical titles, while Lambruschini's letter, although it certainly parcelled out the country, gave neither title nor dignity. Therefore he said the noble lord was bound to produce something upon which they were to legis late. He never could believe that that house would con sent to pass a bill of pains and penalties without some document to prove that legislation was necessary. (Hear, hear.) When he had asked the noble lord about the preamble, he was informed that it was the seat as the Emancipation Act, but the fact was that the noble lord had made a great blunder in poaching frees the lion. and learned member for Mislhurst. (Hear, hear.) The next mistake was in not putting a preamble to the first 'clause. The bill slid not require the first clause, but the first 1 clause required a preamble to elucidate it. He would now read the preamble of the Emancipation Act, and contrast it with the miserable, wretched, and narrow-minded preamble of this wretched and contemptible hill. (Cheers from the Irish members.) It ran, " Whereas by certain acts of par liament, certain reNtrictiqns and disabilities arc imposed on her '-'s Roman catholic subjects to which other sub- • ..er Maj esty s jeers of the realm are not liable, and it is expellent that such restrictions and disabilities shall from henceforth be ' discontinued." Nov that was something like a preamble. (A laugh.) There was nothing in it about sees and re scripts and letters apostolic. It was a preamble which did honour to that great man, that lamented statesman, whose advice and counsel, whose experience both the house and the government stood so much in need of at the pre vent moment. (Hear, hear.) Ito would now ask the Solicitor-General whether this was the bill by which he was pledged to abide, and he wanted to know if it should pa" how the courts of law were to deal with it. Suppose that the Solicitor-General himself should have the supreme satis faction of proceeding against the Archbishop of Weston 'ter. Thu jury would probably be men of common sense. Me judge would have to charge them, and would say that it was an offence under the act to derive a title from the apos tolic rescript. But the jury would naturally ask kw the letter of the 2t)th September, and would say naturally, How can we tell whether this set is unlawful until we see the letter ?" How would the learned Solicitor- General then propose to proceed ? Ile must either give evidence of this letter, and if it were necessary before a jury, surely it should be introduced in the preamble af the bill. This brought him back to his old complaint, whoa he sow that Lambruschini's letter conferred no title. Well then they were going to stultify themselves by passim/ a bill for which there was no foundation in the rescript upon which it was professedly based. He did not know how the hon. and learned Solicitor-General could answer this objection, although he had told the house he could answer anything. (A laugh.) Here had been a measure delayed for four mouths in consequence of the government continually t eking amendments from other people. Paco ling in a little here, and taking out a little there, they had at last cooked up a bill in such a way that he defied any case to under-taud it. (Hear.) The Attorney-General, to do hi. justice, seemed to know nothing at all about the bill, and, much to his credit, to care less. (A laugh.) There were three or four and twenty amendments on the paper, and he was credibly informed that there were double that number in reserve. (Laughter.) Would it not he latter to make the opposition a present old ? The hon. member concluded by musing that the clause he postponed. The SOLICITOII-GENERAL gave the hon. member ample credit for the wit and humour he had displayed, but regretted that he was not better founded in . argument. (blear, hear.) The hon. member charged the noble Will at the head of the uovieuruent with having said that E.e preamble w..s found.al on newspaper information. Tl.c noble lord hael merely said that it was a matter of notorie.y, and the objection would have been just of as much three against the bill of if documentary pr.eof were demanded of the taking of ecclesiastical titles. The hon. gentleman was squally incorrect in attributing to him a readiness to demolish all objections, past, present, and future. What he had said, when by beard the hon. and learned member for Athlone misquoting a clause for the purpose of proving that this bill would repeal the Bequest Act, was that he would not cuter into the question then, but would be ready at the proper time to denweidi such an argument. As to whether they should procced without this bull, the hon. member seemed to imagine that they must proceed like a committee on a private bill teirmaliter. lie need hardly say that in a measure of this kind they would adopt broader principles of lejslation. A.s to the existence of the bull, he need hardly better authority than Mr. Bowyer, who was known to be the legal adviser of Cardinal Wiseman. and who hail published a pamphlet, in the first page of which the rcseript was act out verbatim. But they did not want to prove it. The recital of the preamble! was:—" That whereas certain Roman catholic subjects of this realm has assumed certain titles, miler the alleged authority of a cer tain brief purporting to have been given at Rome," and the only fact they would have to prove was the assumption of such title. (near, hear.) If the hon. member doubted that fact, let it be investigated, but he hardly thought the house wouid adopt so derogatory a course. 'the hon. mem ber then asked how an indictment could be supported in a court of law. He (the Solicitor-General) did not imagine there could he any difficulty. Ile could assure him that the act would be most effeou-a, and he had not the slightest doubt of being able to coneict without the production of the bull. (Hear, hear.) Mr. ROEBUCK would not attempt to follow the grandi loque nee of the hon. and learned gentleman, but would endeavour to understand the bill. The first clause spoke of the formation of certain dioceses under the colour of an alleged authority given for that purpose, coming from Rome, and dated September 29, O. fhe first clause declar e d that "the said brief, rescript, or letters apostolical, and all and every the jurisdiction, autho rity. pre-eminence, or title conferred, or pretended to be conferred, thereby, are and shall be, and be deemed, un lawful and void.' Now, let them pursue the steps of a legal proceeding in this matter. Supposing some " John Smith " chose to assume the title of Bishop of Cloyne, and was indicted under this act for so d o ing, o r pro sec ut e d ac cording to the forms laid down—without reference to the second clause, for he was but speaking now to the Ant clause only—if there wan any meaning in that first clause at all it was wholly useless. (Hear, hear.) Then came the question of what the title was ? Under the act the party would be charged with having assutned a title under the said brief or rescript—that was, the brief or rescript of a certain date. Now, how was that to be proved? The party charged called himself Bishop of Cloync. He (Mr. Roebuck) did not ask himself if the title assumed was that of any existing bishopric. or a title belonging to any other person; but simple whether the title was assumed under this particular brief or rescript: and, if so, he wanted to know how the offence was to be proved? They must re member that in this case they were entering upon a criminal proceeding, and the u lode charge must be proved to the: satisfaction of the jury. (Hear, hear.) How would the Attorney or Solicitor-lieueral prove that the title had been conferred by this rescript of September, ISSU? He could understand the proposition of his honourable and learned friend the member for Abingdon, who would extend the operation of the bill to all rescripts or letters apostolical, if that were adopted he could understand the operation of the act, but not when it was confined to the one particular brief or rescript. If the hon. and learned gentleman ad mitted that every reser t i i pt should be included, and that any . gave notice that on going into core- person mounting the titre of bishop, under any such authei mince of supply be would bring the question before the rity, should be made an offence, whether the title assumed house. were Bishop of elope or Bishop of 3lelopotamus, then MONTE VIDEO. the consequence would be to prohibit Roman catholic Mr. ROEBUCK give notice that on Monday next he bishops altogether. (Hear, hear.) He was justified then would ask the noble lord at the head of the foreign depart- in saying that the noble lord had borrowed from his op anent a question relating to certain correspondence which ponents that which must destroy his own object, and the had taken place between the British government and that bill as it now stood was either utterly useless, or so eaten of Monte idee ropeeting a loan to the latter country. sive as to put an end to the Roman catholic religion in ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES ASSUMVTION BILL. Ireland, as well as in this country. (Hear, hear.) He The order of the day from the committee on the above wished to know from the Attorney-General, if an informs hill was then read. tion were laid against a person assuming the title of Bishop Mr. .1. O'CONNELL presented seve ra l petitions against of Cloyne, how he wo u ld prove that he took that title ass tbe bill. der the rescript referred to in this bill ? The house went into committee. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that his simple en- Mr. T. BUNCOMBE said that, whatever difference of ewer to the hon. and learned gentleman's question was, that opinion might Cain on the subject of this bill, it was at all he should not prove it at all; and forthe best of all reason* — events same matter for congratulation that after four that it would be altogether foreign to the inquiry.. It would months' deliberation they bad at last arrived at the point not be laid as part of the information, and would not cons, that the house had permitted the reprinting of the bill in quently be open to proof, and he would not attempt to aa amended form. so that they now were in possession of a prove it. (Hear, hear.) He might be allowed to observe measure to which the government had pledged rhemselves. that it would be a at saving of the time of the house if Now, in this amended bill he found much new matter. He hon. members would deal with one thing at a time. The would not call it a new bill, because that seemed to give hon. member for Finsbury had proposed to postpone the offence, but, at all events, it was not the bill which the first clause until they should have the rescript before them; Louse had read a first and second time. (Hear.) The new but speaking on that motion the hon. and learned member Minter to which he alluded was in the first clause which he for Sheffield proceeded to discuss the clause itself, and was about to ask the government to postpone. (A laugh.) asked how he (the Attorney-General) would attempt to This cause now said that all titles adopted under the autho- prove that the title prohibited by the clause was assumed rite of the apostolic letter, rescript, or brief, would and should under this brief or rescript from the See of Rome ? To be unlawful sad void. That rescript was also alluded to in that question he replied there was not the slightest reason the preamble. which recited that, " whereas certain Roman fur doing so et all. (Hear, hear.) The first and second catholic subjects of this realm had assumed certain ecelesi- clauses of the bill were totally. distinct ; the first provided astical titles within the United Kingdom, under the that the brief, rescript, and letters apostolic conferring authority of a certain brief from the see of Rome. import- the titles was illegal, and the titles conferred under ing to be given at Rome on the 29th September, 18.10, tic." it void. This related to the authority and juris- Now, he did not think he was asking an unreasonable thing diction, and was applicabl e , if h e m i ght be allowed in proposing that this document, of September 21), should he to use the term, to civil purposes ; it created no produced previously to:their being called upon to inflict by offence for which en information could be 'issued against porrfueto legislation, an injustice on many m illions of her any party . The o ff ence was enacted under the secon d Majesty'ssubjects—(cheers from the Irishmembers)—to take clause. " Hear, hear." from the Master of the Rolls.) from etent, in fact, all the rights which had been conferred He was glad to hear hi, hon. and learned friend the master upon them by the Emancipation Act. (Continued cheering of the Rolls confirm that view. The hon. and learned from the came quarter.) All he asked was, that the docu- member fur Shedield's objection proceeded on the assump meat should be produced. On • former evening he had tion that the two clause+ should be taken together. But it asked the noble lord at the head of the government where was clear that under the first clause no man could proceed n act, done y was this brief, and whether he would have any objection to t o i n di c t, f or t h at c l ause merely annulled a produce it ? The nobl e lord must hav e se e n it, or h e cou ld un d er, or t i t l e conferred by. the bull or rescri pt ; but with not have put j; in hi s bill. I t was not in the original bill, regard to the o ff ence that was created by th e secon d c l ause , but there was some allusion to it in the clause which bad and all that it would be necessary to prove would be that THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, MAY 24, 1851. had umed the title forbidden by the .to which he should draw the attention of the committee i the Pare'fich e a e n e r :h e e d 1 that the ( t e al:e l ect i i p the T c h l e ae h ie on. w a o n el d d leaced tn ge p n i tl o e h m ib l t n s a a n i d d i w i c , re th le e w st i si a tu n t u e nt or bu t r i . i. T bi h t t b •y , I catholic—no matter struck re of po th el e i a eg ets ec o u f Ri of ch le ard o from whence the title was derived, and the Ist of Elizabeth, cap. 6; and he had been _ abolish the assumption of the title of bishop by any Roman and 11318. Now, very much depended on the statute withof the hon. and learned gentleman referred to the title of some surprise that during the whole of this discussion the exercising his functions as vicar apostolic would nutin ciiii c Bishop of Melopotateua ; but the Bishop of Melopota b 7 usi most i e n d pn e rt e a e n b t e, se e c t t e io p n ro o h f ib t it h i a oe t oafetthoef introduction, w o h f ic i i re any way a ff ected by the bill, because the clause onli or to titles derived from places in these kingdoms. ear.) 118th, and it provided that no foreign prince, spiritualiireferred scripts, hail never been adverted to. That section was the p th ro e ve h d on h . is a i n eepo le , ar iti n o ed °, A tto M Mr. w ith- Attorney-General Khardejo.inetedpletethlayt that the clause was useless. (Hear, hear.) That was his !if any subject of the realm were to attempt to . i i te n mP° th ra is i, realm . should Now, upon any po thi w s er p w ro h h a ib ts i oe ter v y er cl w eese ith: that this clause hail nothing to do with the information 1 foreign prince, he wuuld be liable to be indicted f proposition. The hon. and learned gentleman had said ' maintain or support the jurisdiction or authority . of _ or e a from the rescript. Would any one say that all the titles I meat ; and the legislature provided the pun ishment charging the o ff ence, but only with the civil rights derived misdemeanour, and would he subject to fine orimtporrisoteent within this clause, might not be made so by the second clause ? ' These clauses provided that if any person dwelling derived from the rescript, sail declared to be invalid by ' offence in the clauses running from the 27th to the 30th. ask the Attorney-General ono of the civil consequences fol. authorities, powers, and jurisdictions . of any foreign prelate, It was clear, therefore, the clause was useless. He would this realm should directly affirm, maintain, or defend . the ! not follow from the second. Ile had said the clause was' for the second he should forfeit the penalties of pre from the enactment of the first clause that would 1 he should for the first offence forfeit . his goods and . ch attels, 7th and Bth proving that it was mischievous. (Hear, hear.) He be- for high treason. The act of the useless: he thought he should have very little trouble in I mustier, and for the third he should be indicted h been described in the act of the great principles of the Act of '29, about which they offence exactly as it ad Victoria tiered the government had fallen into a great trap, fatal to of Victoria repealed part of that act, but left the first appeared long since to have been forgotten by the leader of I part of the Ist of Elizabeth,. and, fty . taking away the pit talked so much but did not understand, principle* which Elizabeth. The oth and 10th of . also repealed a unlawful to de that act of parliament provided that it was the party, and his followers, which had beets their strongest I niahmena rendered the section entire l y inefficacious ; still advocates. (Hear, hear.) Mr. WALPOLE thought it would be desirable to decide fend or maintain in this realm the authorities an d powers I whether they were to &scuts the merits of the clause itself of any such foreign prime, and, in all other respects, It it or the proposition of the hon. member for Finsbury, fur continued the law exactly as it was before. The anybody s hould postponing it until the rescript should be produced. lie section contained a prohibition with reference to the conceived the latter question was the only one now properly offence , for it provided, that if . _ under discussion . But when they came to consider the maintain within the realm the jurisdiction of an y clause he thought he should be able to show the hon. and foreign prince he would be liable to be indicted f or learned member for Sheffield that it was necessary. Ile a misdemeanour and punished accordingly. ( hear .) Now, thought, however, the government had placed themselves as regarded the procuring of bulls front H omey an d i the ' ie n - in considerable embarrassment by not adopting the cream- troductiou of them into this country, the act of Ite hra at tile he had suggested, and the provisions consequent thereon. enacted that, "if' any person should issue any bulls or I Now, with regard to the question whether the rescript instruments which affected our lord the King, his crown, ought to be produced before discussing the clause, the hon. and regality, he should he liable to the pains and riee 1i • bishop of Rome any member for lidsbury said there was no evidence that any of premunire, ' and the 13th of Elizabeth pros i that, such brief or rescript hail been issued. But was •• if any person should obtain from the that the way our ancestors dealt with such bull, writing, or instrument, &c., he should liedeemed questions ? (Loud cheers and counter cheers.) What of high treason." The 9th mud 10th of Victoria repealed guiltywas the great precedent on which they ought to proceed, a so much of the 13th of Elizabeth as imposed th • precedent not derived from protestant, but catholic times ? pains and penalties therein mentioned, but then the legisla l'hat precedent was the statute of preniunire. What was tore provided that nothing in their recent enactment should done then ? The Pope at that time, contrary to the rights render it lawful for any perret to put in force within the , of the English crown, attempted to translate certain bishops realm any rescript, writing, or instrument from a foreign , to other sees. The lion. member for Finsbury liked to see prince. Now, according to his underst a nding of the pro a good preamble ; he would refer him to the recital of th e visions of th ese acts of parliament, that statute of act by which that aggression was met, and by whi c h th e Richard 11. was one under which 1,1121411111 era for the in national honour and tho national rights were vindicated. troduction of these bulls might be inflicted. The cum in that statute parliament proceeded noton legal proof, but mittee were aware that that statute of Richard 11. had on public notoriety of the fact. Our ancestors rested tneir been introduced into Ireland by what was commonly termed proceedings in that case on common clamour. (L ou d c h eers Poynings law. There was, then, a law actually existing, from the Irish members.) Yes, they proceeded on what which law would have been sufficient to punish the act of, was called in the genuine Saxon English of the time, introducing into England or Ireland any bull or rescript "common clamour." (More cheering from the same like to that now the subject of consideration. But, it might quarter.) But which, translated into the modern, diluted be asked—if you have this law existing why create a new and Latinised English was called " public notoriety." one ? And to that question the noble lord at the head of (Cheers, and laughter.) The consequence of passing that the government had already given a most satisfactory an statute was that the act was never infringed but twice, once serer. The noble lord gated, on the authority of the law by Cardinal Weisel, and the second time by Richard L alor; officers of the crown, that the exiating law had been ' and in both cases conviction ensued. (Hear, hear.) The infringed by the introduction of the Pope's brief, preamble of that act was as follows: "It is said, and a but that, in consequence of that law having slum common clamour is made, that the said Bishop of Rome bared so long, it was considered by these law officers has ordered and proposed to translate some prelates of this that, if' it were now called into action, it might be considered same realm, and some out of this realm, and some front one a hardship, and that that might cause a prosecution insti bishopric to another within the same realm, without the tilted under the old statute to fail. lie (Sir F. Thesiger) King's assent and knowledge. . . . So the crown of fully coincided in that view, and thought it would be ex- England, which bath b een so f ree a t a ll ti mes t h at i t b at h ceedingly unfortunate if the prosecution under such circum been subject to no one on earth, but immediately subject to stances should fail. But then it was perfectly clear that God in all things touching the regality of the same crown, the law ought not to be left in that unsatisfactory state. To and to none other, should be submitted to the Pow, and say that they had a law applicable to a particular occasion, the law and the statutes of the realm by him defeated and and that it was necessarily inoperative, would never answer; evaded at his will, in perpetual destruction to the sure- and therefore it otos absolutely estential in 1101/1C way or other to reignty of the King our Lord, his crown, his regality, and revive the old act of parliament, and to show that it was of all his realm, which God defend." Did the parliament not the intention of the legislature that the law abused of that day hold their hands when they saw the iude- continue to be a dead letter. The noble lord bad no pendence of the nation attacked by a foreign power? clause in the bill as it originally stood a pplicable to this No. " And, moreover," continued the recital, " the Coin- particular point, and it was very early its these debates moos aforesaid say that the said things so attempted be suggested to him that he wax leaving the law in clearly against the King's crown and his regality used and a very unsatisfactory state by not touching that approved of in the time of all his progenitors ; wherefore particular point. Mr. Gladstone, the other evening, hail they, and all the liege Commons of this same realm, will instanced the Cade of the bishopric of floss, which was stand with our said Lord the King and the said crown and created by a rescript issued posterior to the one in question, his regality in the case aforesaid, and in all these cases at- and had asked if a prosecution for that offence could be tempted against him, him crown and regality in all points to raised under the pr e sent bill ? Ilia (Sir F. Thesiger's) live and to die." Were not the C 011111 1 ,1114 of England opinion was, that the preaeut bill would not cover such ass still prepared to stand by our Lady the (linen and her action, and if it be raised at all, it must be under the sta regality ? (Hear, hear.) I)'ere they not prepared to tote of Richard 11. This must create eiabarraagneut ; stand by:the nation whose rights, freedom, and independence and the far better course would be to remove it now. were placed in jeopardy, if they allowed any foreign power, In conclusion, the hon. and learned gentleman moved of any sort or kind, to interfere with the laws, religion, or as an amendment, " Clause 1, line 21, instead of the words internal affair. of the kingdom ? (Cheers.) the said brief, rescript," insert the words " all such briefs, Mr. KEOGH observed that the honourable and rescripts." learned gentleman, the Solicitor-General, talked of arro• The SOLICITOR-GENEILAL thought that his hon. and gance ; but could a more arrogant remark have been learned friend had mistaken the whole scope and object of made than that of the hon. and learned gentleman, when the clause. His hon. and learned friend had said, in ex he said that " he had heard no argument against the bill planation of the course taken by the government, that the 1 that hail made any impression on his mind ? (No, no.) original statute of Richard 11. was so entirely obsolete, so The SOLICI full-GENERAL said it was unfortunate long a period had elapsed since it was acted upon, that it that the hon. and leaned gentleman could !weer repeat ac- had been considered ads Ssable by the government not to , curately anything that he had heard. What he had said bring it forward now. No doubt that was one of the rea- was, that nu argument had impressed itself on his mind as sons assigned by the noble lord (Lord J. ltuasell) for avoid. being invincible. (h ear, hear, "Oh oh," and " No, no.") big that statute. But another reason was that the penalties 1 Mr. KEOGH must, of course, accept, with all humility, imposed under that statute, the penalty of pneinunire being any reproof front the hon. and l e arn e d S o li c it or -G enera l. one o f t h ou, were o f a c haracter not desirable to see en- The hon. and learned gentleman had said that he (Mr. forced in the present day. The object was to re- Keogh) could not accurately repeat anything he had heard. cord a solemn declaration in a particular case against an ' A lecture on accuracy front the Solicitor General, who had act of violence and aggression on the part of a foreign pa- I told the house on the last night of the discussion, holding testate ; and the government, in proposing the former bill the present bill in his hand, that not a word in it had been before the house, had thought it sufficient, as regarded changed since it was first brought into the house. (Cries of the law, to do this by a recital in the preamble without " Oh, oh," and "No, no.") any enactment whatever to that effect. The suggestion, The SOLICITOIt-GENERAL : I said nothing of the however, of the hon. and learned member for Midhurat kind. (Laughter and cheer.) (Mr. Walpole) was, that an enactment was desirable on the Mr. K EOGII asked whit was the position of the law offi- simple ground that it would add to the solemnity of the cern of the crown with respect to this measure ? They were declaration. Ile (the Solicitor-General) had already, on at th is moment advocating a bill that, in all its essential., other occasions, stated the objections which he had taken emanated from their opponents. (Hear, hear.) They had to that course—that the recital would have all the force lien told by the right hon. member fur Oxford that the and all the effect which could be derived from ' first clause would only apply to the bull mentioned in the a declaratory clause. The recital was enough preamble. Afterwards the Solicitor General told them because there was not and never had been any mistake that every bull and rescript would be included. If whatever as to the law of the matter. The object et the legie it was to have that extensive operation,what uas the mean- 'uteri: wa s manifest, and the o bj ec t o f thi s clause was maul ing of the hon. and learned Attorney-General when he s aid l es t . 11u, clause was levelled against that particular bull there was no alteration its the criminal direction ? lie had which had given the offence : audit would certainly be more asked the govenunent over and over again, without being dignified in the legislature to legislate against the able to get any answer, whether they intended to put the one bull in this way than to search fur all the bill in force in Ireland. It was quite clear their object petty provocations which might be offered, and to hunt fur was to deceive. They wanted the votes of the opposition every bull and rescript which might be issued from time to side of the house to keep them in office, with a view after- time front Rome. The great utteuee, and the priecipal in ward. to deceive nut only these who gave them their votes, suit, was in that bull which p retended to aunihilate the old but the people out of doors also. The hon. member for ecclesiastical dioceses of England. To his mind it appeared Finsbury proposed that they should not proceed with the iudescribable bathos to sink the question below this, and to clause until they had the rescript on the table. Now, urge the remiation against the bull erecting a Ronan ca. what was the preamble of the bill ? It declared that, thulic bishopric of Itoss—which bull was, at least, subject " whereas divers of her Mejesty's Roman catholic subjects to the genend law, and, like all other bulls emulating from have assumed to themselves the titles of archbishops and Rome, illegal and void. The lion. and learned gentleman bishups of a pretended province and of pretended suggested that his amendment would test the sincerity of sees of dioceses within the I. nited Kingdom, under colour government. But the hon. and learned gentleman forgot of an alleged authority given to them fur that purpose by that the first clause attached no new penalties, and that tho a certain brief, rescript or letters apostolical from the see of second clause would affect every permits assuming particular Rome, purporting to have been given at Rome, on the 29th titles wider the authority of the see of Rome. of September, 1830." When the noble lord was asked— After a few words from the Earl of ALUNUEL and "where was that brief, where that authority ?" the only SVItItET, answer was, "it is perfectly notorious—(hear, hear)— Mr. DISRAELI thought that the whole difficulty in this " public notoriety," which, accorillineto some philological case arose from the government having accepted the first process in the mind of the hon. and learned member for clause from the hon. and leaned member for Midhurst, Midhurst, was 'Animal diluted English for the pure Saxon without having at the same time adopted the preamble pro " common clamour." (Laughter.) Ile (Mr. Keogh) asserted posed by that hon. and learned gentleman. Hail the pre that no such hull, or rescnpt, had been published. Nur could amble proposed by that hon. and learned gentleman been the noble lord now produce the copy of any newspaper now before the committee there would not have been any or other public document in which it had appeared. lie necessity for the proposing of this amendment; and, as he thought then there was fair ground fur calling on the go- (Mr. Disraeli) did nut despair of seeing the committee vernmcnt to lay the rescript on the table befure they pro- adopt eventually the preamble of the honourable and reeled further with the bill. (Hear, hear.) learned gentleman, the member for Midhurst, he would Mr. REYNOLDS contended that the question was venture to suggest to the honourable and learned gen whether the l'ope, the archbishops and the bishops of ten tleman, the member for Abingdon (Sir I". Thesiger) to ' millions of the Queen's subjects should be convicted on pause before he divided the committee on an amendment false testimony or not. (Laughter.) lie asserted that the which would be included in the general scope of that pre poorest man in the kingdom would not be convicted on such amble. (The hon. gentleman here read au extract from flimsy testimony as that embodied in this bill. He thought the amended preamble with a view to showing that its the clause ought to be postponed until the rescript was purport was the mine as that of the amendment of Sir F. produced, because, although much had been said about the fhesiger.) What he (Mr. Disraeli) desired was, that this restrict, what proof was there that it had ever been pub. bill should be made a retaliatory act. Because it was eon lished in this country. templated as a declaratory act, it was alleged in the face of The committee divided— it that it was occasioned by a certain specified conduct on For the amendment Against it 221-172 of the measure would to a certain extent be diminished by On our return to the gallery, we found the adoption of the amendment of the hon. and learned Sir F. TIIESIGEIt addressing the committee. Ile said gentleman, the member fur Abingdon. The objection that that as the words lie proposed to insert in the first clause the case of Ireland would not be included in the first clause had escaped the observation of hon. members, he thought in as it now stood was also met by the consideration all fairness he was bound to place the question before that an amendment h a d b een placed against the second the house in its true light. (Cries of " Hear, hear.") lie clause by the hon. and learned gentleman the member for had not solicited any support for his amendment, Midhurst, which would give every aatisfactiun on this point. because, after the observations made un Monday night on Therefore, though the first clause was inconsistent, and in the part of the government, when explaining their inten- congruous, still in reference to the proposals intended to be Lions with regard to this bill, he was satisfied that he ought made by the hon. and learned member for Midhunt, which to receive no opposition from them, and he was content to appeared to be both consistent and congruous, he was dis leave the determination of the question to the careful coml. inclined to adopt the suggestion of the hon. and learned deration of those who had weighed it deliberately. Now, member for Abingdon, notwithstanding that that sugges the committee were aware that the clause proposed by the tion was per se judicious and correct. It was some pre government, coupled with the preamble, was a declaratory gumption in him (Mr. Disraeli) to give any opinion on th e enactment that a certain rescript alleged to hare been legal bearings of the bill. But he had from the first cuter issued on the 29th September, 18.)0,wu illegal and void, and tamed the opinion that the offence offered in the bill, erect the object of his (Sir F. Thesiger's) amendment was this to Mg a Roman catholic diocese of ltoss, would be met make all similar rescripts which might have leen issued prior by the Emancipation Act. The Solicitor-General now to the passing of this bill to be comprehended within the confirmed that opinion, and stated distinctly that terms of that declaratory enactment. lie was satisfied that that particular act of the Pope was undoubtedly those who believed that such a declaration as this was ne- illegal. But if this was so, he wanted to know, and he cesoary, would perceive that his addition WAS essential , and hoped the law officers of the government would ex pl a i n , w h y ag; to ug uei hte , r in consequence of his .) that others wouhl admit that if they w ere to legislate at all, the Roman catholic bishop of R uss h a d nut been proceeded ree it ft u h t th the ge e alter vernme a e t t io w n he proos would eet p be e c el. Now, ereplete in id aind rs ti?,o(LL:lurdceii (heersee mo.d as la co t consistent eee ent without order to make the subject intelligible, he would explain his dropping his voice, was only heard at intervals in the gal view of the existing law, which had not hitherto been lery) was understood to say that the argument of the hon. brought plainly under the notice of the house; and, gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) was disposed of by'the statement as they were on the threshhold of this species of that the preamble had nothing to do with the bill. The legislation, and about to create a new law, it committee was called on to construct a bill • without refer was the more important to bear in mind what once to the preamble ; and if the law they passe d were dis was 'the existing law. Indeed, hi s f ee li ng o f t h e im- puled, the judges would decide in reference to the clauses portance of this aspect of the question must plead his ex- separately. He admitted that the view taken by the ease for trespassing on the _present occasion upon the atten- h in. and learned gentleman the member for Ab , ngdo n tion of the committee. He agreed with the op ini on the only consistent • ex. was but pos pressed the other night by the law officers of the crown, a l- sible to take by the supporters of the bill -h o though he had arrived at that opinion on grounds different (Mr. Roebuck) doubted altog ether the • necessity of this from these which swayed the minds of the law-officers; and proceeding. The Roman ' catholic" in England were therefore he must request the attention of these learned merely dissenters. The declare •• declaration of the Pops was /amply the gentlemen while he stated the law upon the subject , in declaration of a private individual • I order that they might correct any unintentional errors into , _ _ But he which was not known to the law. he would come to the details of this bill. which he might fall. (Hear, hear.) The acts of parliament His first sharp against this first clause was that it was I wholly superseded by the second clause, and that in effect it went a great deal further than it was intended to go, The reply of the Solicitor-General to the suggestion of the hon. and learned gentleman the member for Abingdon, was that it was unnecessary, because the bill did deal with all descriptions of rescripts, briefs, &c. Now be (Mr. Roebuck) would go back to the preamble. The preamble Anittocerndies;ioneetnioenrazhtteh pre sent recited not against the assumption of titles, but against a certain power to be exercised within any province of the nrose rm T e h ra at hon. and learned gentle- Unction ought to be drawn be n with a title not takett from that diocese, exercising t rail ebre w es e tni ttnll point hada MasterKb stateds° d ho oo p foum assumingttthh.beaytilaerlel hells. title .if a diocese and a bishop jurisdiction within a diocese. Ise the preamble of the bill the words were used, " Whereas divers of her Majesty's Roman catholic subjects have as , awned to themselves the titles of archbishop and bishops of a pretended province, and of pretended sees and within the United Kingdom," dtc. Now if this bill passed, any person appointed by the Pope, calling himself Bishop of Heliopolis, but exercising jurisdiction in Er.gland, would be liable to a prosecution, and would be exposed to the pe nalties proposed to be created by this measure. That was to say, every act performed in the course of lies spiritual functions by the prelate so pmseeuteri would he void. The ATI ORNEY-GENERAL replied with reluctance to the hon. and learned gentleman, because when the law of the hon. and learned gentleman was called in question he invariably lost his temper. (Laughter.) But he (this Attorney-General) would at all events not get into a pas sion, and would endeavour to sati:fy his hon. and learned friend on this point. The preamble, and the first clause, and the second clause of this hill were directed against the assumption of titles under a certain authority taken front provinces and sees of the United Kingdom. The hon. and learned gentleman put the case of a Bishop of Heliopolis exercising spiritual jurisdiction within any diocese of the United Kingdom. Ile could assure the hon. and learned gentleman that this would not come within the scope of the bill. This clause did not carry the provisions of the bill further than the recitals in the original bill. The clause teok nothing from its efficiency; it merely declared the illegality of the proceeding by a more solemn and emphatic declara tion of the sense of the nation. The clause would satisfy the feelings of many persons; and it would remove all. doubt and ambiguity that might attach to these proceed ings. It openly declared what the law was, and If it did no good, ou the other hand it certainly did no manner of' harm. lie would not then enter into the proposition ..f his lion. and learned friend the member for Abingdon, for in troducing the plural number instead of the singular, as St had born already fully discussed. He believed that if his hon. and learned friend would give further consideration to the act of parliament, he would see that the cue he pro pounded was not within the hill. Mr. ROEBUCK—Then it was to he understood that, in the opinion of the law officers of the crown, the Pope might issue rescripts to-morrow if he iikeil, and divide the kingdom into dioceses, giving only fictitious names to the bishops, as the Bishop of Lima, and that in reality it was not meant to prevent him. The goventment had given the bishops all the synodical action, and therefore their bill did not touch thst matter. lie was glad to bring the law officers of the crown to that pass. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that his hon. and learned friend had made another mistake, for he had assumed as a fact that the bishops were capable of synodical action. lir. MONSELL wished to know how all this was to be reconciled with the statement of the government that they would make no change of the law with respect to Ireland, but leave it in the same state as it was at present. One or the other of the hon. and learnedgetttlentan's statements must be wrong. Let them bring as much special pleading to bear on the question as they liked, they could nut make out that an of the interference with the spiritual gover in n s, n ili t r i. ‘ ; :,.. t ip: tone catholics was not an act of gross persecution against them. .) iritual eman to I l lEr niw w ,:u o hl u ad l t d thw t e l;:y lni like kee ,: the ran I t e ge r t fo r n fur the N'rdeyan confer e nce wltioa all te l h h t ou i l ab.dbountib and coul d erules of it be maintained for a moment ? Lord .1. RUSSELL could only say to the honourable gentleman that although the Wesleyan Confenmee might pretend to govern by direct authority the member: of the Wesleyan body, he had never heard of any declaration trom that conference that they governed all the members of the Christian bod)• throughout the world. Mr. MONSELL thought he had a right to an answer front the hon. and learned gentleman himself. Lord J. RUSSELL said that the third reading of the bill would be the better opportunity. Mr. MONSELL said he had put the question very clearly to the hon. and learned gentleman. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL apprehended that this bill would indirectly have the effect alluded to, and would have that operation in Ireland. Mr. MONSELL said that what ho wished was, that the hon. and learned gentleman should reconcile the two •tate tncuts, that this bill would have the effect of preventing synodical action in England, and at the same time make no alteration in the law of Ireland. The AT f iiS.ll7.\L replied that the Emanci pation Act did that already, and all he could say wa4 that this bill carried the law nu further than it stood hetbre the assumption of the titles; and that synodical action was Mr. M'CULLAGII said that as he understood the propo sitions of the bun. and learned Attorney-General, they were destructive Mead' other ; because on the o ne hand he denied that the bill gave power to prevent synod action; and he was nut about to tell the house that the government, which wax at that time advised by his hut. and learned friend, the Master of the 'tolls, and their law officer had so far ne glected their duty as nut to prevent the violation of the law. if it was a violation of the law, it ought to have been stopped ; for it was admitted tohare been done within the provisions of the uet of 1.829; and the hon. and learned gentleman admitted that that act had not been broken, and that there had been no attempt to evade the law. They were now told that this synod of Thurlea was held without a violation of the law. The hon. member for Buckingham shire said that he approved of this short clause proposed by the hon, and learned member for Midhurst because it was retaliatory. Was that the principle to act upon iu this year make the laws in a retaliatory spirit? The bill was retaliatory upon the Queen's subjects for an insult; they thought had been offered to their own religion, and was pro posed for no other motive whatever. As regarded the effact of this clause, he would ask the Solicitor-General what that effect would be if, as he had stated at the beginning of the creating, no civil consequences would ensue from it. Did he mean to say that a prosecution would not lie for misde meanour for an infraction of this law as well as the other ? (Hear, hear.) Sir HENRY WILLOUGHBY recommended the hon. and learned member tor Abingdon not to press his amend ment at present, as it seemed to lie a question whether or not the particular brief ought to be described in the clause. Mr. NAPIEIt argued that if the government preamble stood so it was, this difficulty would foliose—Ross was not a pretended see or bishopric, and therefore the goveni ment preamble was nut applicable to it. B u t th e p ream bl e proposed by the hon. a n d learned member fur Midburst would cover the case of !LOS% which the government pre , amble would not, Here the hon. and learued gentleman quoted a passage from a newspaper, to the effect that the sees ofCloyne aad Ross had been just separated by the authority of the Pope, who had thus midis' another bishopric to the Burnish church in Ireland. lle would ac cept the clause of the lion. and learned member for Mid hurst, provided his preamble also was to stand, but if not he would rather have the amendment of the hon. and learned member for Abingdon. lu Lalor'a case War had been convicted under the act of Elizabeth, then recently passed, and the Attorney General, to avoid being charged with putting in form a protestant law made for religious purposes, went back to the old statute, 300 years old, foe a law made in catholic times for the safety of a catholic country; for Lelia was convicted under the protestant law of Elizabeth for exercising episcopal functions by authority from the see of Rome. It had been said that there was nu law in Ireland to prevent such a synod as that of Thurles ; but there was the direct authority of air E. Sugden to the contrary. Dr. O'Connor, a learned catholic, who had been excommunicated fur holding liberal opinions, said that iu his judgment Labor had been justly prosecuted. An at tempt had been made to draw a distinction between tern rral and spiritual functions ; and there was a letter written ); Thomas Moore, the poet, touching upon that very point. 't he hon. and learned gentleman here read an extract from the letter, which was to the effect that the distinction sought to be drawn between spiritual and temporal functions was an endeavour to reconcile submission to the Pope with the discharge of our other duties, but that the spiritual autho rity of the Pope would still combine with itself many gross particles of temporal power which it behoved a wise go vernment to resist, At the time the act of 1829 was passed it covered the case of every bishop in Ireland, and ho was contented to abide by it. If that act had been administered on both sides effectually and wisely, without connivances at breaches of that act, all parties would have been in a better position than they were at present. The hon. and learned member then recommended the government and the legislature calmly and deliberately to consider the subject, and to decide what by the existing constitution of the country Roman eatholics were really entitled to. He fur one was not desirous to take from them what they had, or to infringe the liberty they possessed, but ho was deter mined to resist every attempt emanating from foreign authority which he considered inconsistent with the rights, liberties, and religion of the people of this country. Mr. ROEBUCK said that the hon. and learn2d mem ber had set the house a difficult task—that of a court of judicature. But they were legislators, and not a court, and they had to decide not what the rights of Roman catholics were but what they ought to be. It rested with the government to put that in motion, and it rested with the government by constitutional means to define their rights. Ile spoke not as a lawyer but as a statesman, and he appealed to the noble lord whether he and his irovern meat had not done all in their power to make these people believe that they had the power of synodical action. Did not the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland know of the synod ? Were not the legal authorities of the Irish government em ployed not only to protect the bishops but to impart dignity to them in their assembly. It would not I do to come down now and ask the house to go calmly into the question whether synodical action was legal or not. Ho said that the fault lay at the door of the noble lord—at the door of the British government ; that he had fostered this spirit, and had told the catholics that they should have this power • and now at last the noble lord h a d t urne d roun d , upon them most unfairly as re arded the Roman catholics, and most is judiciosaly as msgardsd the policy of this oewita7. 1 , I