The Express. — London, England, 1851-05-31 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS.—FEDAY, MAT 30. The Loan C111•111CILLea took his mat at tire o'clock. PETITIONS PRI - PAPAL Aoriamostust.—By the a. BANE, from 64 places M Smtlasd • truss several places • and the Eail Tref places in Yorkshire aad Conserves ; against papal aI=7kOI:GHAM mid that several petitions against the Erelesisatical Titles Bill had been seat to him fur pre mutation, but he could not present them until the bill was before their lordships' house. COVMTT COtRT, Etrrssios.--By Lord BROUGHAM, from Burton on-Trent, Brecon, Llaorwet, places in York- shire. and various other places, in favour of an equitable ' jariedietion Iscin4 given to the County Courts. All of these petitions complained of the intolerable state of the Court of Chancery. It was utterly hopeli.o to endeavour to obtain equity, Justice, or relief an the present state of the Court of Chancery. and the grievance would matins'.: unless there was a itrvat a•uenilment, both in the constitution and practice of that court. The noble and learned lord also presented • peti tion from attorney. of Newcastle-oss-Tyne, against the ' County Courts Extension Bill. The petitioaen were quite wrour in suppusing that any alteration was intended to be made is the bankrupt laws by giving bankruptcy juriedie tioa to the County Courts. ?WM.:KENS 01 . BUSINESS IN CHANCERY. Lord BROUGHAM moved fur certain returns connected with the prugreus of business in the Court of Chant:eq.—. Ordered. ADMINISTRATION OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE IM PROVEMENT RILL. PREVENTION OF OF FENCES BILL. . On the motion of Lord C these bills were seve rally read a third time and pawed. THE OATH OF SUPREMACY. BREADAL t Lo 5 . :4 BROVG.III, • The Earl ut POWN presented a petition from the Earl of Bradiord and Viscount Clanearty, praying for a muditi • eighth of the oath of supremacy. The Earl of WICKLOW bei.3.4 to call anions attention to the,: pefitim. and he hoped their lordships would do justice iu iseefirdalge witia their prayer. Ile dill out think . it was decent to call upon per.ona in the 19th century to'. • take Cie u..th of abjuration ; and all unnecessary oaths were' improper. Ile had brought in a bill on the subject last and he should much wish to see it taken up by tlv• Lord Chaneellor. COMPOUND itonomouwns• BILL On the motion of Lord , this bill wan read a . second time. C/ICR,CII BUILDING ACTS AMENDMENT BILL. On the motion of the Kai of CARLIIII this bill went through committer, and was reported vo the house. itoasTßATioN OE ASSURANCES BILL. lint CAMPBELL moved the committee on this bill. • 7- 1; •- 1 . 17:U — 1• LO It ANCELLfEIt (who spoke in a low tone of voice, was understood to say that be did not object to the principle .1 the hill, and he had handed his noble and kara.il friend some suggestions ae to some of the clauses. III: would not object ti. the bill going threw.jh ronsmittee, but hr hi- noble and learned friend would postpone . the third re.iiling of the bill to afford time tor the cou•i derAtion of tie amendments he had suggested. laird CAMPBELL would most willingly consent to do en, 111 ords r to obtain the assistance of his noble and learned friend. Earl FITZWILLIAM objected to the ronsersatioual tone adopted by the two noble and Irarn.,l lord., who 110.4.11114 to bore disposed of this bill, but in what manner it errs impossible to boon', and he wished to be inforinisl more distinctly as to the course which his noble and learned friend (laird I..amplis•l) intended to pursue. Ile was not thorou,tbly satisfied of the necessity for this bill, and be thought it would produce great trouble and confusiuts.l The 'deject of this bill was to cause every future deed to i.e • placed in this metropolis when any person might examine it. Now no person could read the newspapers without see. log the improper use that was made Of the power which the public bail to revs every will deposited in Burton. CUM. 111.141 , ; be was afraid thit a similar use would be made of the power to read every deed deposited in the registrition lle, therefore, deubteol the eapcilitucy of this bill, mot wa. Riad of any proposition which would delay its progree., Lord I 'ItANWOItTII said that he mold ant agree in the id, ut the waste earl that tie Iletty who]. was asked might 11;,,,• a p rejsa t iesa l etfeet so the pr a , a ng of the bill in the `4•1,11,111. Ile could nut see how it could possilsly nojar. ail) holy to have every futon. deed '.posited in the ' ',v. •ti dent office. The party depositing the deed would • bade a duplicate of it, aid if lost, t h e duplicate Wes to be of '1 Ili • sole elfert a tie original deed. lie thought that ths. 101 l would rather increase titan diminish the facility of • moowy on title deeds. (Ilear, hear.) r a few words from Lord WitaitaCLlfrie and the • MA NI.. tot W1,1%1:4111. Iroil CAMPBELL ioel that the praelice in Ireland up • to the act of last 11015i.111 was, in many instances, to deposit a d ; but it was found to he on inconvenient that the law was altered, and tle full deed hail now to be /le y The subject Kul beets considered for 20 ytmo, and , wehest..r., Iktrnisten., and Isiiik.•rs agreed that the full deed oliXit to he registered. Ile had too doubt that the regi,ter ia¢ of full di...a would be found to be • economical tluu r.,...isterilig the owowrill. Ile was far from saying 1 1 that cosioderable improvements might mot be male in the Lull, and he had no doubt Blot any amendments of his hold' end leashed friend's would be made with a view to' imp/Nosing the bill. 'I Is• committal of the bill was then postponed. DECOY OF LANCASIEII (1111111 I'EAK MINING COBTOMS AN)) MINERAL COURTS) BILL. Ou the motion of the Earl of CAULISLE this bill was read a mogul time. Mr. MOWATT wished to ask the hon. and learned At torney-General a question, of which he had given notice, respecting that celebrated endowment the Brentwood Gram mar School. 'fheparties had agreed to a scheme approv cdof by the patron and subject to the approval of the.tt tor, ley-0 eneral. lite question he wished to ask the hon. and learned gentle man was whether the scheme which had been adopted was likely to meet with his approval ; and, if so, whether it !would be necessary to bring in a bill to carry it out . ? The ATTORNEY-GENEItAL said that the scheme had been submitted to hint and had received his approval. and the matter was in course of immediate settlement when an unespeeted difficulty arose in the Master's office, in conse quence of the patron, Mr. Flower, wishing to introduce clauses to prevent his sun from disposing of the patronage. That proposal was resided, and hence the delay ; but he was happy to say that it had at last been arranged, and the 2nd June was heed for a final meeting in the Master's office, when he trusted everything would be satisfactorily settles!. (Hear, hear.) BRIBERY AT ST. ALBANS BILL. Bided es offering bias se aid in withheldina fens the poor depositors *Ade bard earned savings, he still intended to ruses the same sands of putting off their demand. Mr. F. O'CONNOR mid, that when the affairs of the Land Compaq were wound up these depositors world be paid. The beak, which had been forme." sgain.t his judg. meat, was sow in his debt upwards of LOW/. OCNPOWDER STORES (LIVERPOOL) EXEMP TION REPEAL BILL. Mr. W. PATTEN asked the right bon. Secretary for the Home Department whether he would object to refer this bill to ■ select committee for the purpose of investigat ing whether the lessees of the gunpowder magazines should receive any compensation. Sir 0. GREY would have no objection to refer this par ticular point to a committee, provided it lied not delay the progress of an important public biU. There was another important point which he would take that opportunity of mentioning, and that was, that he did wit intend to make any mention of site in the bill, proposing rather to karst that to be decided by some public department. BRENTWOOD GIUM3IAR SCHOOL. NAVIGATION I tWS .• • Mr. E. ELLICE, jun., wished to call attention to the position of the bill for appointing a commission to inquire into recent proceedings at St. Alluns. At that period of the session it would he impowible to bring it on unless the government gave him an opportunity for ...I doing. lie therefore trusted that the First Lord of the TrvAmary would turn his attention to the matter. METItOPOLITAN WATER. St'I'PLY. In answer to a qui•stion from Mr. B. Cocuuty IL respect ing the schedule of rates in the Metropolis Water Supply _ _ . . Sir G. GREY declined giving any explanation as to de tail. until the bill had been read a second time. The second reading was tired for Thum:lay, June .5. Mr. DISRAELI drew attention to a petition which he haul presented from the sisters of Lieutenant Wyburd, of the Indian nary, who in the year IS:ti had been sent by the British envoy at the court or Persia on a mission to Kltiva, but who had been seized by the Ameer of Bukhara, and was supposed to bz dead ; but it had tr . :twin:ll that he had escaped into the Khanat of Kokand, where, it had been ascertained through the native resident of the Khan of Ko kand at Peshawar, he was detained as a captive in PM ; and the petitioner. sought the interposition of the govern anent to etfi et his release. ' Mr. ELLIOTT, on behalf of the Board of Control, and Sir J. HOGG, as a director of the East India Company, stated that Colonel Sheil, our envoy at Teheran, had re ceived accounts of the death of Lieutenant Wyburd, in INK which had been continued by Dr. Wolff in INV) • that in IttPl infortuation hut been received from Kokand that an Englishman named Wyburd was detained there ; that communications had taken place between the Khan and Colonel Lawrence, at I'eshassur,7who had despatched mes sengers to Kokand; but they had never returned, and up to January last no further informaion had !nen obtained, though the local government had been instructed to leave nu means unemployed to accomplish the liberation of Lieut. Wyburd, if alive. PARLIAMENTARY REFORM. In answer to a question from Mr. Remit, Mr. lICME intimated that hr should, if p‘eisilde, firing nn hi. motion on the subject of parlisunent.try reform on Tuesday nett. INCOME TAX COMMITTEIi.—ISUSINESS OF TILE HOUSE. Lord J RUSSELL, hating been appealed to by Mr. Iltune, said he would arrange for that hon. gentleman's! motion for the nomination of the select committee on the income tax to come on the first thing on Monday next, as he did nut apprehend there would he any lung discussion upon it. Awl in answer to a question front another hon. member, the noble bunt said that he pmposed to move the adjournment of the house for the Whitsun holidays on Friday next till the Thursday following. On Friday also he proposed to move for leave to bring in two hills, one to improve the administration of justice iu the Court of Chancery and the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, ' and the other to regulate the stlarie: of the Chief Justices of the Courts of Queen's Bench and Common Pleas. On Mond ty hi should move that the name of Mr. Lahouchere ' ,be substituted for that of Mr. Fox Maule us a member of 'the Kaffir committee, his right hon. friend (Mr. F. Maule) being too unwell to attend. lininelliotely alter the coin ! mittee on the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill, the discussion on which be presumed could not well occupy much more time—(" Dear, hear," and a laugh)—he proposed I to take the committee on the Jewish Disabilities Dill, laud alter that to procesd with this committee of supply. (" When ?" from au Icon. member.) Ile proposed to take the rommittee of supply on Thursday and Friday, tit: 12th awl 13th of June. AGAR TOWN. Sir B. HALL, referrine to the disgraceful state of Agar Town, St. Pancras, in eonsequenee of the absence of sani tary reguletions and the danger to be apprehended to the public health therefrom, as the warm weather set ill, asked if the notate lord (Lord Seymour) would .end some pervonto examine the locality, in order that such steps might betaken as might in . necessary. Lord SEYMOUIt —ln consequence of the represents. Lions which had been made to the Boort of Health with: regard to the unitary state of Agar Tow n and other places in the same locality, a person had been sent to examine the! place. That gentleman had mule a re port to the effect that the places he had been directed to visit were in a very im proper and unsafe condition. That report, if his hon. friend wished it, should be laid on the table of the house. (near, hear ) MORTALITY IN IItISII WORKHOUSES. Mr. REYNOLDS complained of the nun-production of 111()USE OF 11/NiMONS.--FRIDST, MAY 30. certain returns he hail moved Wr relative to the mortality The ••'• ttttt a took the eh lir at the usual hour. I which hail taken place in the Kilrush, Ennistynson, Dort, PRIVATE BUSINESS. and other workhouse.' on which he iuteitileel to found a eats , The following bill WA. read a second time • Coal Duties tion.:anel referring to the delay iii the Irsli business before (I , anl.as and Wrwmin•frr and adlweet counties) Bill. / parliament generally, wished to know whether it was in. *th, following bills were real a third time and passed tended to devote a government night to it, and when ? fireat Southern and Western Railway (Ireland); South Sir W. SOMERVILLE, with regard to the returns, said Statfonishire Railway (bran c h, to join the Birmingham, the order of the house had been sent in the usual way , Wolverhampton. and Stour Valley Railway, &e.) ; Stock- through the proper department to Ireland, and the reason Lei, 111141i1 4 11114•With. farm, iiC , iViterWOILI ; Ulventune the returns had nut yet been made was that they were so and Lancaster Railway ; Bills I very voluminous that they reguind considerable time to • IL ports laid inn the table . ('lerkenwell Improvement prepare. With regard to the delay in the Irish bills, it had (transfer of powers Mo the corporation of Loudon, ike.) ; arise% from themine cause which had delayed all other busi- Luadon (City) Sewers ; Bills. I nem, vie., the time occupied in the discussion of the &vie- PUBLIC BUSINESS. adadical Titles Bill. (Heat, hear.) PETITIONS PRESENTED. OAT OF ABJURATION (JEW) BILL. high Petiti in ns owee pr esented by Mr. counMUNT7.. from OATH Den- I Mr. B. OSBORNE chargel the government with having .of the tate:rim' of ty courts. By Sir unnecessarily delayed this Lill, which he said had hood It FERGUSON, fres corporation of Derry. Praying that brought forward under peculiar circumstances, for, although G veer recorder's jurisdiction might be preserved in the Civil . • government measure, it had been introduced iia pursui t. 11. Bill. By Sir It. 11. INGLIS. from a presbytery in Neetheisil, against the establithment of lay chain in omen- aria of a resolution of the (louse of Commons. Mr. LABOUCHEItE said his noble friend had elready pities By Lord Mk:L(II:ND, from Dunfermline, in favour mated that the hill in question would be proceeded with of seceder education. By Mr. O'FLAHERTY. from Gal. when the Eccleeiastical rifles Bill had gone through wa wa). against Ecclesiastical Titles Bill. Br Mr. MUL ..i tt , LI NtiS, from l we l ui ' imi 01 Regent's Canal ' s fr Ai nst I Mr. B. OSBORNE—When is that? portions of the Cool Wthipps.n' Bill. In Mr. SULLIVAN, : Mr. LABOUCHER F. thought it desirable that they from parishes in I,llBlkiony, against keelesimitical Titles should adhere to the usual practice to proceed with one Bill. By Mr. 11i1ME DRUMMOND, from parochial subject at • time. schoolmasters of Neath. net Lord Mitgund*s MIL Ily ?ilr. J. A. SMITH understood the noble lord to say that Captain FORDY CE. from Aberile;en Steam Company, the Jewish Disabilities Bill would be brought on after the against certain clause ain the Steans Navigation Bill. B y Mr. committee on the Ecclesiastical 'rides Bill ; if so, that was NM IT H. from St irlingshire, for alteration in mode of levying in strict accordance. with the arrangemtut which had been the sprit duties. By Mr. LIREENALL, from Cites ire, rna de. against papal aggreswiim and praying for more stringent Inca- WOODS AND FORESTS BILL. suns. By Admiral (Wit ISON. from Scotch distillers, praying for an alteration in the mode of levying the spirit duties. By Lord SEYMOUR, in reply to Lord Duncan, said he after Whitsuutide for would name an early day proceedin g 81r FOX, from Cason and Longford, against the Eecle• this bill.h it Monica' Idles Bill. By Mr. ROEBUCK. from S'actfield, w —.. . in favour of financial a nd parliamentary reform. By Mr. , I nANS.STLANTIC PACKET STATION. CORB.SLLY. nom Meath, against the Ecclesiastical Titles Mr. M•CI'LLAGII asked when the report with refer- Bill. Mr. P. S. BUTLER, from Kiug's County. in Geour cnce to the transatlantic packet station would be laid ou the of appropristiou of Irish churls revenues to purpose. of t ab le ? charge By Mr. lIIGUINS, from Mayo, same prayer. By : lilr. COWPER was understood to reply that it was in Sir W. CLAY. tram Dayton, against taxes on knowledge.. course of preparation, and would be shortly produced. B y Mr PATTEN ' (min lessees of WallasCY Magazines, I METROPOLITAN SEWERS. praying for enentwnsation.l Sir GEORGE GREY, in reply to Lord D. &trate, AWOL RNSIENT OF TILE HOUSE . said it would be exceedingly undesirable just now to On the motion of Mr. C. Lewis. it was ordered that the enter into a discussion of the conduct pursued by the house at its rising adjourn until Monday next. I existing commission ; but this he might observe , that that OTONNOIL LAND SCHENIE. !commission had the experience of men of the most scientific Mr. ROEBUCK had a question to ask the honourable attainments in the country, and that these men had devoted member fin Nottingham, preparatory to which it would be much of their time to the public affein. With regard to neceseary to make a short statement. By a c i rcu l ar w hi c h h e t h e bil l under which the commission acted, it was quite held in his hand it appeared that the honourable member true it would expire at the end of the present seseion. He bad given notice to the depositors in his land bank, that he could only say now that the government measure on the took upor. himself the whole responsihility of the deposits, at subject was in course of preparation, but that it was im. the seine time comparing it favourably with the government possible for him to name a day fur bringing it in. (lieu.) saving* bank. NOW he (Mr. Roebuck) had hell a letter sent : SPIRIT TItADE OF IRELAND. to him from a poor man in Manchester named Pollard. a Mr. J. O'CONNELL gave notice that, on Monday neat, mar above 60 years of age, who by the economy of a whole h e wou ld ask at what time he might expect to have the re fire had saved the sum 0(67/ , and who confided that sum turns, ordered some time ago, regarding the spirit trade of to the honour of the hon. and learned member for Notting' Ireland, laid upon the table. ham. This poor man afterwards swished his deposit re- ECCLESIASTICAL. in CAL .to committee on this TITI.ES Dill, ASSUMPTION . BILL. turned, and the answ e r h e received, dated the 14th u t M a y. ' The house having gone IS'it, was that. pending the decision of parliam en t, M r. P. O'Connor was unavoidably compelled to submit to a tempo- Mr. KEOGH moved to add the following proviso to eery' suspeirion of the repayment of deposits. A subse. the first clause •—•• Provided that no criminal Prtrerdialfs quint circular from the oilier of the Land Company, in shall be:commenced, or indictment preferred, against any Onord-street informed the depositor, that, pending the person, under or by virtue of this clause, except wi t h t h e division of parliament as to the li a bilit y o f t h e b an k to re. consent of her Majesty's Atturuey-General for the time fund monk" adwaacrd th e Mr. O'Connor for its support, he being first being obtained. — was, in compliance with unanimous vote of the dirce- I Mr MOORE said that, towards the close of the debate tora,,reluetantly compelled to submit to a temporary sus- . on Monday night the noble lord at the head of the govern. pension of the repayment of deposits. So that the hon. I ment had dismissed, as it were, the Irish members and learned gentleman, in 1848, took upon himself the ' with a sort of valedictory warning. Ile said that he whole responsibility of deposits, and in 1851 he told the I would give the Irish members time to reflect upon depositors that, by the amalgam's vote of the directors : their conduct, advising them not to repeat it in of his bank, he was comprllesl pending the decision of par- ' opposition to the voice of public opinion. He (Mr. Moore), . 'lament to suspend the repayment of th e deposits. Now, I however, would take the liberty of reminding the noble the select committee had decided that the affairs of the lord that there was public opinion in Ireland as well as in bank should be wholly withdrawn from the sionsidenttion of ' England, parliament, and the question he wished to pat to the hon , and that the noble lord bad once bowed to the public clamour of the sister country with the same abject and learned member was, whether. pa g u iumt h aving do. 'worship with which he sow ducked to public opinion in Lord /MANLEY Riau. notice that on Monday he would call the attention of their lordships to the petition from Litsrpnol complaining of the operation of the mitigation law.. (I leas. hear.) • 111/USES (SCOTLANI)) DILL. On the 'notion of Lord Kite:Anti., this bill passed through committer with sonieverhal amendmisits. MTA\IN\(i OI(DKKS. 0., the motion of Lora Ittne.iitt.E, Standing Orders Nos. :VI and 47, touching the introdurtion °lnert., land si..nitiii.t Order No. N. hntching the 4.1.1411 to Tut , ' fur the el. rti m of representative peer. in Ireland. and the tlevreet et tie le cram-. of Ireland, urn• rn lend and amended. 'l'h. .r lorilaleiva adjourned at balfis c.t seven o'clock. THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, MAY 31, 1851. England. (Hear, bear.) He called- upon her Majesty's government to declare the law fairly and explicitly, pro mising, if they did so, that he would not introduce any pro viso either for purposes of delay or for other purposes. Public opinion edled for legislation, but for legislation clear and defined, and not obscure legislation. It required an act to resist the l'ope, but, whilst the present measure did not mist the " aggression," as it was called, it was mode to insult the feelings of large masses of her Majesty's subjects. (Hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL said the Attorney-General had stated, the other night, his reasons for not agreeing to the proviso of the hon. member fur Athlone. After n few words from Mr. Wsiroit, which were inaudible in the gallery, Mr. KEOGH raid he would not divide upon the proviso now. as there was some expectation that he would after wards obtain the support for it of the hon. member for Midhurst. (A laugh.) He preferred that hon. member's support to his oppootion. motion WAS then withdrawn. The proviso, as amended, was added to clause 1. On the motion bcicg put that clause 1 stand part of the bill, Sir J. GRAHAM rose and said—Sir, having been indulged by the louse with a full opportunity of stating my objections to the principle of this bill on the wood readiug,T have carefully abstained from taking any part whatever in the discussions in committee; but since we have now arrived at the conclusion of the first clause, which was not part of the measure when last I had the hon our of addressing you, atd feeling great doubts with re spect to the real import of this clause, I hope I may be pardoned if I shortly addicss you now taking care not to re-state my opinions as to the principle of the bill, which, however, remain unchanged—(hear, hear)—but confining myself strietty to the clause now before yon. It was the policy of those opposed to the principle of this bill to have left t he arrangement of the details to the great majority who support it, and to have waited afterwards until the bill fame out of committee fur another opportunity to state their objections. But Ido think thu clause so important—more especially as there is so much ambiguity about it—that I am anxious some discussion should now take place, in order, if passible, to obtain some explanation of what is its real import. With respect to the infention we naturally look to the preamble. Now this clause is a clause which her Majesty's government, at the suggestion of the hon. member for Midhurst, have adopted. You will observe that the preamble of her Majesty's government is alone what peculiarly worded; but I shall only dual with that part of it which applies to the first clause. It says :"Whereas divers of bar Majesty's Roman catholic subjects have as mimed to themselves the titles of archbishop and bishops of a pretended province, anal of pretended see, or dioceses, within the Lofted Kingdom." Rather peculiar phraseo logy—for you will:see from words following that they apply to a rescnpt—one rescript—of a particular date, which was strictly applicable to England only, and that the wools "L rifted Kingdom ' are ouly adopted on this principle, that England is part of the " United Kingdom," the rescript wit being extended to Ireland, but expressly to England. This preamble is en tirely limited to the rescript of the 29th of September, 18-10; and, although the words " United Kingdom " arc inserted, the uuly portion of the "United Kmgdoin " to which that rescript applied was England. Now, with reference to these words of the government, if we are to seek to obtain the meaning through the preamble, it would seem that this clause should apply strictly to England, as the preamble is strictly limited to the one rescript of the 29th of September, ISdO. (Hear, hear.) Now, let me call attention to the preamble proposed to be moved by the honourable member far Midhurst, and judging by his preamble let us endeavour to discover the meaning of the clause. Does he refer only to this one rescript Nothing of the kind. Look at the words of which he has given notice. Ile proposes, after the word "pounds," to omit all the following words down to the words " United Kingdom," and to insert the following most important and significant words And whereas the said brief, rescript, or letters apostolicisl, and all such or the like acts or matters touching the Queen, her crown, her regality, and the realm." There he puts in all rescripts, fur he says, " all such or the like acts or matters touching the Queen, her crown, her regality, and the realm." That is to say, that in his opinion the rescript of the 29th of September touched the Queen, her crown, and her regality, and was an encroach ment on the realm. Ile uses the word "all "—whether future or antecedent—anal he makes all these instruments Icome within this declaratory clause. (Yeer.) Therefore, these words are different from those used by her Majesty's goverument, inasmuch as they do not confine the preamble to the one rescript of the 29th of September to England, but extend to the United Kingdom and to all rescripts either future or past. (Hear, hear.) Now this would appear to me an iudicatiou of a very different intention on the part of the goventnient who adopted this clause, and of my hon. and learned friend (Mr. Walpole) who proposed it. Again, with reference to the intention of her Majesty's government, let me refer to the conduct they pursued on the first bill we had before u.. That bill contained second and third clauses following that which is now the second clause of this bill, but which se cond and third clauses her :Majesty's government upon de liberation withdrew, for reasons very fully stated at the • time by the right hon. baronet the Secretary fur the Home Department. On full consideration, and alter hearing ar gument. in thin house, they were satisfied that that second and third clause would interfere with certain spiritual functions of the episcopacy which they were unwilling to touch either in England or Ireland —such, for instance, as ordinations, collutieu to benefices, and various other ectlesi anneal functions which they were most anxious not to disturb. Now, is it the intention of the government to adhere to that intention which they, on deliberation, announced to the house when they refused to pernevere with the second and third clauses of their former bill ? (Hear, hear.) It is most desirable to come to a dis tinct uuderstanding on that subject. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) And here the difficulty of arriviug at a conclusion of what is intended by the government, has bred increased by the views expresek d by the law officers of the crown during the progress of the debates upon this measure. (Hear, hear.) lam sorry the right hon. gentleman, the Master of the Rolls (Sir J. Remaly) is not in his place, fur he, when Attorney•Ciencral, had given au opi nion to which, ou refketion, he distinctly adhered—namely, that as the law now stands there is no impediment whatever to the Pope dividing any portion of this country into sees, or dioceses, or distracts—give it which name you please— for ecclesiastical and episcopal purposes. (Hear.) I took a note of his words at the time, and I believe he would not deny, if he were present, that he gave that opinion. (Hear.) I understood the learned Solicitor-General to have said recently that by law at this moment any such rescript was in his opinion illegal; that this clause was a declaratory clause, and did not alter the law, but that it clearly declared the law as it now is; and he went on to say, as to the etl'ect of such a declaration in all the inferior courts, which all courts would be held to be, that lee pari ntateria, it would be received as a declaration of law in all courts of the United Kingdom. Now, if that be so, and the learned Solicitor-General does not dissent from it, it is clear that this extends far beyond the limits of Kuglakid—(hear, hear)—far beyond the narrow ground of the particular rescript. (Hear, hear.) This is laying down a general law, applicable to all parts of the United Kingdom, and peremptory in all the courts of judicature within the realm. (Hear, hear.) The distinctly expressed opinion of the hon. and learned gentleman, differing from the opinion of tho right hon., gentleman the Master of the Rolls, is this—that every rescript from the Pope, appointing a bishop in any part of the United Kingdom, and assigning to that bishop may district or ace, is illegal, and must be held to be illegal in every court of law. I have now shown what is the intention of the govern ment, if the Solicitor-Oeneral is to be taken as its expo nent; and I have shown the Intention of my hon. and learned friend (Mr. Walpole) as shown in the words, as plain as words can be, of the amendment of the preamble which he is about to propose. Here then we see the inten tion in this matter on both aides of the house. I now proceed ta consider what you have done in this claim. I must say that the operation of the clause " throughout the United Kingdom," will in my opinion be most fatal to the peace of one portion of the L. nited Kingdom. (So we un derstood the right lion. baronet ; but at this port:on of his speech he was very badly heard in the gallery.) Now, if I recollect rightly what was said by the noble lord when he intimated to the house his intention to withdraw the 2nd and 3rd clauses of the original bill, he used a very remark able expression. Ile said such was the subtlety of this spi ritual power with which we had to contend, that language failed fur our purpose, and that though having all the ap pliances of the law officers of the crown, he hail discovered that in endeavouring to prohibit that which he sought to prohibit, he uuinteationally always struck at the same time at that which he did not seek to disturb. This was the idintitul expression of the noble lord. Well now see what the noble lord has done. In very despair, aban doning his own Language, abandoning all the counsel of his own law advisers, he comes to my huu. and learned friend (Mr. Walpole), and he adopts my hon. friend's phraseology and declaratory clause, having probably the limited inten tion which he avowed when be withdrew the clauses which affected ordination and collation, but nevertheless taking the general declaratory clause which the gentleman from , whom he takes it proposes shall have the largest extension. (Hear, hear.) But does he consider, if this will I touch ordination, what he is about to do? (Hear, I hear.) The Roman catholic religion is an episcopal religion. All the Roman catholic bishops throughout the United Kingdom are appointed by the Pope, through the agency of a rescript of the Pope. If you declare the re script to be illegal, everything which follows from that no mination by the Pope becomes illegal also, (Cheers.) You t i o nt l m w ent b, o c t . ' m a ,, Ro ini m pc. an s ca ib t le holie r cannot have ordination without a legally constituted episece tistehep,iofryd9inuatltnateactehorde appointment the ordination is illegal, the title of the parochial priest be comes vitiated also, and all the acts of that priest, includ ing the marriages he has solemnized, become illegal also. I think there has been a praiseworthy desire on the part of her Mejesty's government to restrict the power of prosecuting tor felony to the responsible ; officer for the crown. But if you agree that that which' you declare to be illegal is au indictable offence. I then you withdraw such control, and it is then in the power of anybody to indict before a grand jury I say that that state of Wain' is re the strives dangers—(hear, hear)— p and grnan l t aey wi t t h h at would reader the peace and the g overnment of Ireland utterly im possible. (Cheery.) And, above all, I say, if y ou are to j legi i slate n this matter, legislat e distinctly, legislate plainly I b ea r. adtolu itsn ' t pr • esent e t h n a td t u i fb n oi t nno e u n —(cheers)—don't leave doubta and inuendoes, don't leave is te n t ,t i wo e shibeasct soughto this y our fpore i r n ami te n n t b ih le Li' ptuir.noneemhartbigiv (Cheers.) So long as these things are not fully considered, rs o L lv n a e v c e te a d pe th re re ex u it ! )fsonndewimtlLttheimsoiLutritaonntofpothne portion n oub o t f the United Kingdom. (Cheers.) But now let us supply the diction of the Solicituneffeneral to another case. The war , denship of Galway was converted into a bishopric by are- , script of the Pope in 1531. For twenty years that appoint most has remained unchanged. There have been various governments since then, and no government has attempted to interfere. Suppose the declaratory clause has become law. Every reserapt of the Pope, according to the doctrine of the Solicitor-General, in purl ntaterio will be null, void, and illegal. Well, if there is any force in what I have ad dressed to the house, it is quite certain that the bishop of Galway acting in his spiritual capacity under the rescript of the Pope would be at once open to au indictment al I being guilty of a misdemeanor. (Hear, hear.) What becomes of sll the acts of the bishop of Galway fur the last twenty years ; of all his ordinations, and of all the acts of his priests?' (hear, hear.) Their origin was null and void, and they will neec ssarily be null and void. (Hear.) I hear.) (here you open up anger and litigation, and con fusion in social ranks, which is melancholy to contemplate, and which, I believe, will be quite fatal to the peace of Ireland. (Cheers.) Is the recognition of the authority of papal hulls in spirituals new in this country ? Is there any thing to lead us to make the declaration that the exercise of spiritual powers shall be null and void? (Hear, hear.) I say the recognition of such authority has been frequent, in the most marked caws. It has been made in that case on which the noble lord (Lord J. Rus sell) dwelt with commendation the other evening, in the sixth clause of the Bequests Act passed (the hon. gen tleman went on to say), when he (Sir J. Graham) was him self in office, was carefully and cautiously framed; but it contained the most direct recognition of the spiritual au thority of the Roman catholic prelates, and indirectly of the canon law, siuce their decision would be guided by the canon l.sw of their church. In the case of the claim of Sir Augustus d'Este to the dukedom of Sussex, conducted at the bar of the House of Lords by Lord Truro, then Sir T. Wilde, Dr. Wiseman, then vicar-apostolic, was examined, and stated that he was an ecclesias tits' judge iu this country, appointed by the Court of Rome, in mutters relating to ecclesiastical jurisdiction. I, said the hon. member, was a party to the introduc tion of the Bequests Act in ISO. One of the last acts of Sir R. Peel's government in 1816 was to introduce, through Lord Lyudhurst, then Lord Chancellor, in the House of Lord., a bill which, as introduced by him, went the whole length of repealing the 13th Elisabeth, which declares the receipt of bulls and rescripts from Rome to be illegal. Now, I may be permitted to read to the house a short passage from Lord Lyndhurst'a speech in introducing that bill. He says "They tolerated the catholic prelates, and they knew that these prelates could not carry on their church establishments or conduct its discipline without holding communication with the Pope of Rome. No Roman catholic bishop could be created without the authority of a bull from the l'upe of Rome; and many of the observances of their church required the Mlle sanction." Now I beg the house to at tend to these w o rd s . L or d L yn dh urst, at that t ime, spoke the sense of Sir It. Peel', cabinet, and there was not a member of that cabinet who was dissentient upon that oc casion. Their principles and opinions are to be gathered from these observations of Lonl Lyndhurst. Re says— " The moment, therefore, that they sanctioned the ob servance of the Itornan catholic religion in this country, they by implication allowed the communication (with the Pope) prohibited by this statute, and fur which it imposed the penalties of high treason. If the law allowed the doctrines and discipline of the Roman catholic church, it should be permitted to be carried on per fectly and properly; and that could not be with out such commuuication." And then he says, " On these grounds he proposed to repeal the set." The proposition was the entire repeal of the 13th Elisabeth. The hill assumed another form during its progress through the house ; and in the end it repealed only the penalties and not the statute itself. The intention of Sir Robert Peel's cabinet wan, boa ever, to repeal the statute itself. Lord Lyndhurst further expressed surprise that such a statute had never been tweed by the Irish Parliament, though in that country three-fourths of the inhabitants professed the Roman catholic religion. I am not at all surprised. He states the very reason—that three-fourths of the inhabitants of the country are Roman catholic.. (Hear, hear.) In England it is quite possible to treat the Ronnie'. catholic, as a sect ; but in Ireland the Roman CalhUliel are a nation, and they must he treated as a nation. (Loud cheers.) Arid if the legal effect of this declaratory clause be what I anticipate it will be, and what her Majesty's Solicitor- General says it must be, then I apprehend, that under colour of this clause we shall go infinitely further than her Majesty's government ever intended to go when they introduced thus bill. I conceive that the second clause, with its 100!. penalty is as nothing compared with this first clause. I believe that this clause goes infinitely further than the second and third clauses of the original bill. This however is strictly a matter for legal opinion • and I may be in error. But I must say th a t 1 ant alarmed by these doubts and by this ambiguity. (Cheers.) I say, if the law be imperfect render it perfect; if the law be plain, l e t th e p l a i nness b e mule evident. It is inipossible to be satisfied with the bill as it now stands; and l do fear that we should teen see a desire to proceed iu the seine direction with new enactments (so we understood the right hon. gentleman). I fear that this will be the declaration of an intention to revive dur maul laws. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear. - ) I am greatly Alarmed by the animus which has suggested this. (Hear.) We have heard a good deal of the statute of Richard the Second ; and I, myself, have some doubts whether, accord ing to the letter of the law, the statute of Rich a rd d ues nut do all that your declaratoryC clause dues. (Hear, hear.) But there is an important consideration with regard to these old statutes. Trial by jury accompa uied those statutes, and, as Curran well said, they hang up like rusty armour, old and impure, because they arc not used, and it is only activity which would render them tole rable. lam almost snore alarmed by the ambiguity of this clause than by the threats which we hear front those who support it. But above all I am most alarmed by the indi cation that if this declaration be not attended to, and if the reecripts be not discontinued appointing bishops and arch bishops in Ireland—and we have seen these retcripts issued during 200 years notwithstanding these statutes—an attempt will be made to revivify these old laws, and to bring them into operation. Nothing has gratified me more than the con duct of her Majesty's ministers iu withdrrawing the second and third clauses of the former bid. I thought that it was an indication of the spirit which actuates their councils generally on religious questions —a spirit of which I entirely approve. (Cheers.) I, therefore, think that the adoption by the government of this clause, at the instance of my hon. and learned friend (Mr. Walpole) was most unfortu nate. I cannot satisfy myself as to the precise extent to which we could carry it if we adopt it. Under these cir cumstances I could not consent to pass it ; and at all events 1 cuter my protest against this clause and I ahall be pre pared to vote against it. I hope I have kept my worst and spoken only upon this clause without reference to the general scope of the measure. (The right hon. gentleman resumed his seat amidst great cheering from several parts of the house.) The ATTORNEY-GEN ERAL expressed his regret that his right hon. and learned friend the Master of the Rolls was not in the house, in order to explain his opinions on this question in reply to the right hon. baronet. The right hon. baronet repreecuted that his right hon. friend, in the first discussion upon this hill, had stated to the house that he had given an opinion that the Pope had the power by law to appoint ecclesiastics in this country with dioceses and secs for ecclesiastical purposes. Ile must say at once, th it the right hon. baronet was under a complete misapprehen sion. Sir J. GRAllAM—Perhapa the house will allow too to read the rule I took. The Master of the Rolls used these words—. lie now said, and he believed, and be had since been called on and had since given the opinion, that there was nothing in the law to prevent the Pope from parcelling out the country into archbishoprics and bishoprics." The ATTORNEY-OEN EItAL was neverthele,.. ratinfied that there was some inaccuracy in the note of the right hon. baronet. (Cries of " Oh, oh. ) His right hon. friend had given no opinion on this subject to which he (the Attorney- General) had not been a party. No such opinion u that referred to had ever been signed by hint, and of course not by his right hon. fri e nd. _ _ 'An iron. MEMBER—Signed: Did he ever say so? (Hear, hear ) Sir J. GRAHAM—The word., were used is this house. [The right hon. baronet re-read the words.] The ATTORNEY-GENERAL had understood the right hon. baronet to refer to a legal opinion signed by his right hon. friend , and he appealed to hon. and learned gentle men around him, if, when the word " opinion" was used in connection with u law officer of the crown, they were not to understand that a regular document was meant? But there was obviously a mistake in the representation of this matter. Ills right hon. friend could never have used the words without some qualification in the context. The best proof of this was that the original bill was drawn up by his right hon. friend himself, and in the preamble of that bill he recited, as one of the recitals on which the enacting clauses were founded, that "the attempt to esta blish, under colour of authority from the see of Rome or otherwise, such pretended sees, provinces, or districts is illegal I and void," &c. Therefore his right hon. friend could never have usal the words quoted hythe right bun. baronet with- out emphatic qualification. With respect to the general argument of the right hon. baronet he (the Attorney- General) would take the liberty of saying that nearly all , the points which were now raised had been's:deed by other ! speakers in the previous discussions; and as far as they were capable of being answered they (the law officers) had answsred them, and he believed to the satisfaction of the house. (Cries of" oh," from Irish members.) To satisfy the hon. gentlemen opposite (Irish members) was of course a thing not to he expected. (Laughter.) The right hon. baronet hail not attended the debates on the bill since its second reading, and therefore perhaps was not ! aware that these points had been raised over and over again. The right hon. baronet now contended that this clause created and enacted a new law. The government I denied that altogether. When this clause first came under j discussion the opinion which he had given, and the opinion' of the government, and the general opinions in the profes• lion had been, that it did nothing more, in point of fact, than declare the law which was contained in the recital of the preamble and the enactment of the then first clause. The reasons which had induced the government to went to , the suggestion of the hon. and learned member for Mid-' burst had already been detailed; but it was under- I stood all along that the government never be-1 lie ved the clause did more than repeat la a fore solute roamer that which had already been de- could he beginning of the reformation, and when the sovereign of quoted this country had induced parliament to meek a reconciliation gentleman then quo admit her jurisdiction and authority. In contended. (The hue . and learned l gentlemen opposite with Rome andto restored the authority of Rome, I & 2 the preamble.) lie app d e h t a o d not discussed the matter the very act which . (Irish members) ; and . , if . he trusted ho had done so Philip and with them to their eatisfaction, catholic aucestors, iii reconciling this nation no Rome and d he hoped, however pro- . dared. He could not conceive how the contrary gam traria these debates might he, the warfare . of law the reigns, still enacted that the privileges whichoobtained before he amicable—whether they could deny i point 'Yes.")This was the "_oth yearof the reign of Henry VIII , or at anytime since, recital of the preamble? (Mr. Keogh: ble that it or which should thereafter . .. be obtained by the see of 'thine the first question. They recited 1-nateredly—(bear, hear)—an in the preamble Majesty to assume certain not containing matter othe authority , di City, prejudicial t would always repealing everything that had beeu done in protestant ce roy al or imperial of this realm, moist Ise was illegal for subjects of her titles under col, declared this as to the acts done put in execution. Now he contended that this rescript did surely, when they . it followed, as a neces - , contain and pre - eminence royal or imperial of this realm. der a certain rescript , un consequence, that the rescript was void too. , dignity , Had I That was section 46 ; but in section 53 it was declared wry which the whole matter turned. or pre -e a m i i ,:t e :r — contrar y and prejudicial to the authority, nothing contained in the act should he construed t o with territorial titles , that 'the Pope, archbishops, and bishops,. privilege, or jurisdiction which be authority. And, and jurisdiction withiu this realm, without to the crown of r, he wished to ' longed this e realm provisions what their Hire was the fact . o u n r of Fe the crew" ? " the Pellehad not this Pet" well to that Henry VIII. These wer the declared. It le:1,1 very say catholic ancestors thought out unw orthy of them; have that expressly had not previously been law, Roman it not unworthy of their free spirit as English this claw' made legal what that it simply they thought but he (the Attorney•Oeneral) contended t provisiuns to guard denied, he would men to insert in that act of parlianten dea d the existing law, and if this were And the liberties and privileges of this country, and this aut a• a eerfain h out the authority of i take away any liberty, An itt th., .n,th ~a, of lie Wished no greater 'most m hati- city and pre-eminence of the crown.) showed at here he must again take the liberty . to say, e P t t spirit to be shown at this present day t ran they . ally, that he denied that any foreign prince or poten i e that time. l ie admitted it er a s a matter to lie sifted by t and confer territorial titles but which they had sifted by argument during hail the power to gran argument, within this realm, without come to issue with them on that point. (Hear, hear.) the consent andauthority of these debates—that this was a:matter which at the pre- the course concerned both the authority and pre-eminence of tho moment a rescript from the Pope appointing Crown, and the liberties and privileges' of the people of archbishops 'e and bishops in Ireland was in point oflaw right this realm. Ile now put to them the alternative to which legaland valid ? (Hear, hear.) He asked if the right hon. gentleman hail fairly brought them. 'They • •correct in *tying, that spiritual power the of nt thecrown. Would any one say that hon. gentleman were Itoan could only be conferred on the in of Rome s Did any inan to be lawful and operative,. t but that when any bulls and resscripts from the Pope . legal in this papal rescript came into this eons' ry, is papal rescri a I h P tell him that the Pope's bulls and rescripts were t Sir however it might abuse the character of the pop e— ow country now ? for although it had been the intention 0 EliZ ibctli, ever it might contradict the itutliority of the crown—bow catholic clergy by were now to decide either that this rescript was not only Robert Peel's government to repeal the act of but they would have no riaht to find fault with it, hut they attached to the measure had doubtless been dune away, itoman catholic authoritimi whether, in the most must go and ask some . the offence created by the statute had been Cheers ) had according to their views, it was a matter spiritual. ( . . express terms continued. (Hear, hear.) Whatever the They must look through papal decrees to see how far the that act hail not been repealed. The penalties which hail ever it might jar with all their feelings of independence, bees the intention of the legislature, or the framers of measure, 'the net of kditabeth was • authority had declared this was a matter of the Roman catholic as far as related to the making the introduction right hon. merely spiritual, the authority, the power, the jurisdiction Pope's bulls into this country illegal. But the of parliament vanished. (Cheer..) gentleman had said that the bill effected a great change , . still in force, definition of spirituality extended; and when once the d touched to a most serious degree, Now, an lo I formed was, that the spirituality was nut exceeded in this Roman catholic ecclesiastics in Ireland. Nby the t a of Geo. IV., the assumption of episcopal titles void. It Mr. M. O'FERRALL expressed his conviction that the f un ct ion s of Sir J. GRAHAM explained that the opinion he had with the names of existing sees wee declared to be as nothing hail been further from the intention of his Holiness was, therefore, quite clear that these assumptions, so far sive to this country. He would admit that it was a ditli spiritual jurisdiction, were illegal and void—were t contrary ,i h froin culty which had puzzled the greatest lawyers in Europe to to the express terms of the act of parliament. If .' which draw - the proper laninction between the spiritual and the 1 i the law went, and all at pnaeut assumed for the purposes of than to offer any insult to her Niajeaty, or du anything °Wen this clause would follow all those civil inconveniences l would ilad lion of cathodic, and protestant, to allow uo power—whe , What titer spiritual or temporal—whether Pope or emperor —to these civil consequences actually followed mar- interfere with the rights and liberties of the empire, he riage were dreaded by the right hon. baronet, they .. temporal ; but if a declaration setting forth dm deterni ina a equally follow from the existing statute, 10 Geo. single ordination had been invalidated ? a% hat wwould undertake to say that it would be signed by every hail been annulled ? What offspring in the ' • been bastardised ? None whatever. (Hear, hear.) • . then for such a course to be pursued, and Sir J. (SHAHAN! read front a jinn • ted record the words not too late even . one such a de was that " there he felt sure that if any gentleman would pro!, ee catholic empire. (Cheers.) Ile hoped that it was of Sir J. Remaly t o w hi c h h e had referred, el tion it would be unanimou s ly adopted in as short a was nothing in ties law to prevent the Pope from parcelling time as the ordinary forms of the house would admit, the cuuutry into archbishoprics end bishoprics." taint) , ; for if it were pawed it would not depend upon the fidence froui the government, in consequence uf the intro rpretetion of the statute hut upon the will of the mi. late His objection to the precut hill was its lancer nister, whether the Roman catholies should be molested. p E e l , t .e l e t e A t L h L ili f , e . lt l eo tie m h t h ic e ll e ed e : ed w ed ith ae dra h lh in is e co th n e . (Cheers.) • o f (Cheers.) Mr. HATCHELL contended that the assumption A loud cry fora division wad now raised and strangers territorial titles hy Raman catholic d uto, u Ni ct t r io . n i o . f lj ti c i ll i: pernicious and dangerous tendency. prelates was illegal. were ordered to withdraw, but After a few words from Mr. Moues:, Mr. HOBHOUSE rose, and amidst some impatience con- Mr. WALPOLE argue& from historical and legal peen temporal jurisdiction of the crown. If the Romieh autho of nations and contrary to the law of the land, constituting rities were really to trespass upou the sovereign power of . tended that the papal policy W.Ol 110 interferructo with the c e i e d us en: p,, , t t ha io t e t e h e e t l h 'a e p p al ee r ee rw a r e i t p i : the Queen of these realm+, he trusted he should hue the first e ehment on the rights of the nation. He believed that man to resist these attempts; but, on the other hand, he but for the repeal of the act 13th Elizabeth, and the clumsy c w o a f s th r e ep c u r g ow na n n , t a t n o d thean law' - he conceived to be improperly called invasion as if it were heard of Papal aggressions. such. (Cheers.) He ventured too predict that this question would not be induced by public aisuour to treat that which manner is which this was done, they never would have Sir J. GRAHAM again addressed the committee, and part of the country before misty years had elapsea ;and ho of a declaration of war again s t 8,000,000 of our fellow- Part be looked at in a very diffen•iit manner by a great stated emphatically that lie regarded this bill as little short countrymen. should like then to hear the speeches that would be d e Lord JOIIN RUSSELL said the right hon. gentleman those who the had:endeavoured too . w the :mint...inc. vet the when he commenced his first speech confessed that ac viewed weed by the hon. and learned member for Midhur,t, an d wets against Roman catholic religion. (Hear, hear.) this question with alarm. Now he (Lord John Russell) He considered that the Pope hail a perfect right to pursue at the language used by the right ho n . baronet, say that a gentleman should uot regulate hi s con a ci ence as confirm fears and apprehensions with respect to th e exerc i se likewise confessed that he felt the g rea t es t alarm the course he had done ; and to deny it was in reality to fist In the ma place that language tended to excite and hear in the latter part of the nineteenth century. (Il ear , of the Roman catholic religion which had been belhre ex- he pleased, a thing that he was certainly not pr e p are d to hear.) In fact, he thooight that the foreigners who had gentleman, and which arguments h e (L or d J o h n R uss ell) mooed by persons of far less authority tha n th e r i g ht h on . ace the Exhibition would be g at this hill. (Cheers.) li e 0,01 l ilto ge th e r o pp ose d t o thought had been successfully met. Th e au th or ity and come over toreatly astonished weight of the right hon. hart he thought would add to this*• extend it to Scotland, even it th e y were d e t er mi ne d th a t it apprehensions. Then there w as ano th er cause o f alarm, the bill, hut at all events he thought they oug ht a m t o which he derived from the speech of the right hon. gentle- should pass. (Cheers.)Mr. GRATTAN protested, with great energy, against man. The right hon. gentleman said, quoting from Mr. Burke, that persons belonging to a sec t were very b a d the legislation of buth sides left ( very little) hardly the measure, as renderin proer in Ireland of which g p judges of that which was re qu i s it e f or th e conscientious worth having. If they wished tio make rep t aler a th e y c ou ld exercise of the religion of a sect from whom they might hardly have had a better rscruiting eerjeaut than the noble differ. Applying that dictum to th e ques ti on b c t ore t h e lord. (Cheerio.) house, the right hon. gentleman said very truly that here Mr. REYNOLDS quoted the old adage about doctors was a question upon which there was very great difference of opinion among parties in that house, whether or not lawyers. 'I he Attorney-General and Solicitor-General bad disagreeing. and said it hail been fully borne out by the it was a question affecting the regality, whether it was a question affecting the rights of the crown and the inde- hon. member for Ilidlimat had said just the contrary. declared that the first clause exteuded to Ireland, but the penitence of the nation, or on the other ha n d, w h e th er it The right hon. baronet (Si r J ames U ra l tam ) h ai l ma d e t h e interfered with the exercise of the religion of the Roman matter so perfe"tly clear as t o hav e e nd e d th e religious con catholic subjects of the crown. That they did not wish to interfere with the exercise of the Roman catholic religion, troversy, and lie thanked hinafor doing 110. Notwithstand ing this the lawyers on the opposite side stood up and at he believed the supporters of the bill unanimously said. On the other lewd it was fair to admit that tempted to answer him, but they tailed to convince any e ,d those who objected t o the bill bad said th e y claimed one even of the humblest un emanding. S u pp ose th only the full exercise of th e R oman Catholic religion, they Catholic Archbishop of Dublin to die—as lie must at some time—and that three nam es w i re c h osen b y t h e pr i ests, I claimed the organization which was necessary for that exercise, and that they did not claim any power or juris- and sent to Rome for the Pope to select one, would the Pupal butler rescript amsointing one of thine three not be a idiction of the Pope to overbear the authority of the wee- bull or rescript within the meaning of this net, and coasts , reign. Well, then, a difference arose in this question, quently illegal ? is should repeat this question till it was 1 whether the rescript from the Pope did in any way inter- fere with the exercise of the sovereignty of this country, fully answered. What had the eatholies of Ireland ilono to merit the insult offered them by this bill ? The noble lord l or whether it was intended merely to promote the spiritual welfare of the Roman catholics of this (Russell) hail stated that night that he would proceed with this was, tit Jew Bill as soon as th e P a p a l Bill got through commit country. (Hear, hear.) W e ll, u p on t h at question tee. The inference front hat as 1 , 0011 /1.1 time eUthel the right hon. gentlemen told hi m th at t h ose w h o did nut belong to the Roman cathodic religion, fur that was the lies were enslaved, the Jews were to be emancipated. (Hear.) If the noble lord e ta in earnest in th e l a tt er oh strict interpretation o f th e di c t um t h at h e h ad quoted, were Ice[, he ou g ht t o p rocee d w i t h i t fi rst, fur this reason. Of not judges of this question, en d th at i t must b e left to the Roman cetholics themselves. And in what manner the 3.1 Roman catholic members in the house, 31 were in would the 11011144 catholic* d ec id e that uestion ? During favour of emancipation of th e J ews ; b ut if t hi s bi ll of pains the hot six months they had h a d pretty q strong evidence as and penalties were passed, the Roman catholic member,' would not be lik e ly t o trouble the hou se muc h w i t h t h e i r to the mode in which th e y wou ld d eci d e i t. T hey would Presence during th e remainder of the sessi o n. The noble , d declare that there had com e a rewr i pt f rom R ome, whirls lord declar e d, by his bill, t h at i n a country with 7 millions declared this was sm a tt er o f spiritual interest and spiritual bound. of Roman catholic i n h a bi tants, t h e b ishops and arch no.) That M concern, and that by that rescript they were (Oh, de- bishop.; of that b oo t y s h ou ld b e deprived of their el the impression he had d er i ve d f rom the religious liberty and prescriptive rights. The fint bates on this question. But putting it in another way, he c l ause of the bill was in effect the „het° bil l. was not quite satisfied with the declaration the right hon. It was painful to him to make the declaration, on his own gentleman made. lie (Lord John Ruseell) said the behalf and that of those iii Ireland whose confidence lie had n wu interfered with by the honour of enjoying, that the attempt of the noble lord this restript. The right hon. gentleman said it was not authority of the crow to paw this bill, coupled with his letter to the Bishop of for the protestant people to decide that question, but it was Durham and his subsequent speeches, hail sunk so deeply for the Roman catholiesi theinaelves to decide it. Why if that into the minds of the Irish members and people that they was the case they had nut the least power whatever; they were prepared to adopt any legitimate course that might bo who belonged to the protestant part of this kingdom had afforded th em t o wea k en t h e h ands of the noble lord, and de prive him of the pow er o f indicting mischief on their country. not the least power of d e f en di ng w h at t h ey conceived to by the temporal rights of th e crown ; t h ey were debar- ilc conjured the noble lord to adjourn the questi on f or on ly red altogether f rom d e f en di ng t h ose rights that their th Roman one week, to consider the advice that had flet it given him. crown ; ; they had nothi ng t o d o b ut to say catholic ancestors thought i n h erent i n the The session was still y oung . (A. laugh.) lit would advise must wait for a Roman catholic interpretation. He did not a genuine specimen of Whig legislation in 1841, enacted for we him to take his bill t o th e C rysta l P alace, and exhibit it u feel confident that the Roman catholic interpretation might the purpose of coercing her Majesty's loyal Roman catholic not be according to some dictum from Rom of he was not su bj ects , funnity with the unchanging and unchangeable (" Divide, divide.") sure that that dictum from Rome might not he in con- Polk) . of Scotland laid down on this question, seeing that they of the Pope. Well, was not that cause for alarm ? Mr. OSWALD thought that they should have the law had had the law of England and of Ireland explained by Could they say they were to give up at once the law officers of the respective couutries. Mvad wheer e and Mr ever all powers of judging for themselves whether The LOltD-ADVOCATE sa id t h at t h e l aw of Scotland had no reference to this clau s e. There was an old statute penitence of the nation was t o beed, or upheld, and th that the ble- t they had the rights of th e crown were of 1567, called nn act " anent abolishing the Pope "—(a ; and, as the lanothing to do but to lo o k t o R oman cat h olic authority, and laugh)—but that had been repealed. Subsequent acts re- Ithat when that authority had declared that the m a tt er was peale d all the disenabling statutes law at altogether spiritual, their hands were to be paralysed, present stood, there was no reason for excluding Scotland l and that thin great realm of England must submit from the operation of the bill. degrading they might b e . (Ch eers. ) to r those for one, to submit t o t h at d ec i s i on. Ile thought that they lie was net dislsesed pl ace. O n our return, we found Stranger s were ordered to withdraw, but no divi s io n t oo k radii decrees and d ec i s i ons, h owever humiliating and in the House of Commons were fully able to decide for Mr. OSaVALD in vain attempting to obtain a hearing. themselves this grave and important question. Ile thought At last the bon. member mused that the chairman report were bound to hear what could be urged that this rescript it was • question, no doubt, for argument, and that they progress. member haul, on a former occasion, culled attention to the divest themselves of their bounden duty, after they had Lord J. RUSSELL opposed the motion. The hon. shown that the clause had nothing to do with the law of affected merely spiritual jurisdiction ; but they could not st a t e of the law in Scotland. The Lord Advocate had themselves that which was necessary to vindicate the rights of the crown and the independence of the nation. Well, but h e sati s fi e d, the law in that country. Surely th e hon. member ought to (Hear, hear.) heard all that could be said on that subject to decide for Scotland, and, in addition, had explained the whole state of what was the alternative ? The alternative itself, as his anrigidli.tihf otah.oyfritenntdorfdoectodlarewdi,thwtuhatsuoffihctioehrtowlyasalsarmgfriitun4. thlolye mincel:etri.yeeCjaStr:ctAhlarelswryP(o7fal:Seott:nitloadinn:ol".:l'yllsofwhuo-radsadndlecttagltachatteolttoStothaetbeni That was a most &thinning declaration. He (Lord J. Russell wglrs.,,elelecereeeshoulhmd,netntelehatrhoeur:deppzhitibeiete t e h f at th w e which he ha T d h fe e nh A e TT rly o e ßZi le E d Y- th G ,, E t Ni sco . t it ia .,: d . 'hued ) He should persist in his demand, and throw upon the go• declared war against a portion of the people of this country. what the law really was which was about to be declared. tthheotugwhhtiewhohseanthienetegrhfterweleeewhithegtgheeeersiigehet,seoefd the crown , had : , i d ted he tha ie t te t e l e ic et clause thought must steer as steadily as he could between these two pan- vernment the responsibility of n•foisiug an answer. n T i l a i n e i h re ° •:t . that in the question, but n i c t e h w a i d "te si:c r e tu be S C:i ti m ll l ' id i. e , endeavour to do so without interfering with the exerene of universal feeling of that country was engaged, and, there the Roman catholic religion. He believed that that could fore he trusted d that friend would see the iznpro ,be done; he believe(' that this bill did not exceed onside ' his hon. or the other in that respect. He knew that in a great part of h else priety of persisting in his opposition. lie hoped that his on. friend would withdraw his amendment. the United Kingdom it would not be thought sufficiently Mr. REYNOLDS objected to the eithdrawal of the stringent; he knew that in another part of the United amend Ls He wished to know if this clause should Kingdom—in Ireland—it was thought to go far beyond the in • men ' ' pa" its present shape and a vacancy should occur in the ca legitimate exercise of the powers a legislation. His belief tholic see of Dublin, would the election of a successor to was that it did not in on one side or the other ; but at all bound to events, the present archbi s h o p b e ill ega l un d er this clause ? as he h a d sa id , they were exercise Mr. DISRAELI rose merely for the purpose of prevent their own judgment on that matter. Ile thought l e they ought not to be satisfied with learning f g the necessity of a dii Won if partible. The IliVillloll any Roman catholic doctor or barrister what was their ' eons might be obviated if the Lord Advocate would give the re quire(' information duty in this matter. But be could not conclude without Lord e RUSSELL *' • said that his hon and learned friend referring to a declaration he had heard that day from the wo id have * I• ed but that •. 4 . right hon. gentleman the late Governor of Malta (shunt house u cep am , . the gener al sense of the administrative talents the noble lord tonic the opportunity of seemed to be against it. acknowledging), who said that he (Lord John Russell) had After an observation from Mr. \Vassar, certainly lost his confidence by the • manner in which h had Mr. OSWALD aga i n row, b ut found it impossible to ob c tam a hearing. taken up this subject. Now it had always appeared to him • that the line he had taken we, one which nught have been Ihe LORD ADVOCATE repeated his assertion that the taken by • minister of the crown in days when this whole ace of 1567 bad been repealed, met that the law of Semiarid had no be ar i ng on t h e clause. eol3lMaaltY was Roman catholic, lie believed th a t that Lord J. RUSSELL, in answer to the hon. member for which would not be submitted to at this day in Pru • um. a Dublin said that by the 10 Geo IV no Roman •th li protestant country, or in Saxony, a protestant country with ' . . ea o CI a Roman catholic *overeign, would not have been sithmit- Archbishop of Dublin could be uppoisited. ted to in former times by our Roman catholic ancestors, Mr. REYNOLDS was aware that the territorial title (Hear, hear) In the course of this disc as' th had had u ton ey could not be assumed, but wished to know whether the occasion to allude to what was done in ancient times in . usual bull wo u ld b e ill ega l . this country before the Reformation was conceived Mr. OSWALD said that, having now got an answer to or pro. pcoed. But there was • very re m arkable act paned his question, he begged leave to withdraw his motion for *Au the reporting progress; (Hear, hear.) F ,