The Express. — London, England, 1852-06-22 00:00:00

IM PE 1:11 L PARLIA MEN " I'. HOUSE OF LORDS. —MONDAY, luxe 21. The Lout) CIULNI. ELLUIt touk his scat on the Woolsack atociaock. THE 1,01108 ISLANDS. The Esti of FOICCESCUK presented revere) petitions, from own, is and occupiers of hind in various parts of De vonshire, praying for the interference of government to enable supplies of guava. from the Lobos I s land. f ree from the 1 4:eat:rime.• of the Peruvian Itepublic. The noble earl rut a question in reference to the course taken by her Majesty's government on tbe subject, but the terms of it were altogrtli , r Mandible in the gallery. The Earl of SI ALIKESBU KY said the subject, which he admitted was an important one to the agricultural interest, bad attracted the attention of her Majesty's government for some limo past. The islands were not, however, c rrectly described by the petitioners, as never having been claimed by the l'oravian arthoritiet until the demand for the guano, with which th.sy abounded, arose : on the , contrary, in 18:1441 these islands were claimed by Peru, and that chum was admitted by the tdueeu'a Advocate. fin far as the pre sent frOtOrUlatilll concerned, therefore, they were coin• pelted to regard the.• isla.ole as belonging prima laeie to that repel:sc. llaving said thus much it would be undcretisxl that government could not intertere to protect vessel. going there swept soil.t such reguletions as the goecnicocut of Peru estwolosned. They had, however, given instruct one to oar cruisers to collect information as to whether other Wends in Patazemi i or Polynesia might not contain si milar Ill.;10•01. to those on t'ae islands in question, in order that by the 01.1117,1tC1i the PCMIII3II Republic might in' to diminish the hith price which, now she hdl •1y in the trade, she insisted upon. Upon this part id the • subwet their lordships would obtain some .teem, ills in the papers which he should have to lay on the arrow. 114).tRD CONTINUANCE BILL. This bill it'.o brought from the Cemisous and and a first time. COUNTY counts. TIIE ETIQUETTE OP 1 . 1116 BAR Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from 130 mem br ts of the junior liar, including Mr. Seneant Gimlet- and Mr. G. Matinee. complaining of that provision of the County Coale s Act which prevented barristers receiving briefs except through the intervention of attorneys. Loot CAMPBELL expressed himself opposed to the prince of tie jodition. as derogatory to the houour and dig nity of the Isar. MARRIAGE WITH PECCASED WIFE'S SISTER. The following petitions were presented on this subject:— By the Earl of ESSEX 119 petitions. signed by 6,892 per eons,. from Barnsley, Wolverhansistm, Northalli non, Col chest, r. Newport, and other pliers; the Marquis of LAN sDOW NE. (rem Bristol, Kingswooil, Littleton-on- Severn, and other places, signed by 1,007 persons; Lord STAN LEY ALDE ItLEY,from Liverpool,Chester,Congle ton, Maeelestiehl, and Stockport. containing .1.901 signa tures; the E trl of BESSLIOROUGH, from Devonport, Exeter, Brixtn°, Chudleteh, Tavistock, and other parts of Devonshire. siun.d by 3.960 persons; Lord GAGE train Bath, Southampton, kilishury, Gosport , Petersheth, and other places, signed by 4,616 persons; the Earl of M INTO, from York, Leeds, Billericay, and various other towns in Yorkshire and Essex, containing .5,062 signatures; Lord WODEHOUSE, from Norwich, Bury St. Edmunds, and Ipswich, with 3,860 signatures; the kberl of CHESTEII - 'LLD, from Canterbury, Ashford, Romney, Deal, )lover, Margate, Ramsgate, Woolwich. and other places in Kent. The Earl of sr. GERMANS, in presenting a number of similar petitions, stated that the number of signatures appended to these and the other petitions presented by other nobly lords that evening had append , . d to them no few, r than 94,000 denatures, including those of clergymen of the Established Church, dissenting ministers, magis trates, barrist .rs. !Wormy., men, tradesmen, me chanics, and cf ib,lslU married women, a class of persons where opinions Lan generally been supposed to he adverse to the suggested change in the law. Au association of per sons el, eply interested is the subject had been formed for the parties!) ut procuring and nithising information in re ference to it, and the result of their inquiries showed that wits the exception of four cantons and the half of another canton of the Swiss Confederation, bud ono state of the American Union, this was the only country in which marriage witha deceased wife's sister was not tolerated. In It men catholic countries they were allowed under a dis pensation obtainable from the ecclesiastical authorities ; and the J. wish community throughout tie world, on whose marriege law our own was based, regarded such marriages not ou.y as h-gal, lint as laudable ; and in this country publ c opinion was not only in favour of them, but experience showed that they were not productive of those evils which their opponents anticipated from them. A very distinguished American jurist, Judge Storey, said there was not the slightest doubt, and to his knowledge there never hod been, in Nlassachusetts, that the marriage of a man with the sister of his deceased wife, was perfectly lawful and valid; and he added that everything satisfied him that the ohjecti n was unseriptural and unfounded. A protestant bishop of tile episcopal church in America, Bishop NA Dwain, of Cincinnati, declared that such a marriage did not exclude the parties from eommucion in his church. When they found the law and the practice of protestant states at variante with their own law, it behoved them to examine well the grounds on which the law was based. The people of England were a moral and religious people, and if it could h , shown that these marriages were forbidden in *criptore they would not contract them. But many of the most a milieus divines held that there was no scriptural prohibition, and he believed that a large majority even of those who sat on the episcopal bench were of the sante opinion. The noble lord concluded by present ing a petiti. n from the inhabitants of the metropolis in favour of rendering lawful marriages with a deceased wife's list, r, signed by 2 clear!, 17 rector., 15 perpetual curates, 0 ministers of episcopal eimpels, 6 lecturers, 2 chaplains, 11 curates—in all 59 clergymen in active duty in populous parishes in the metropolis; besides 2,100 married women, and h,920 adult males—making a total of 11,320 persons. Lord LYNDHURST said as there was considerable mis apprehension with re gard to the bill which he introduced on this subject he le isheil to say a few words in explanation. That bill made nu alteration whatever as to what cases came within the prahiloited degrees. Whatever cases came within the prohibited elegri ea bet re it passed were within them now; and if marriage with a deceased wife's sister was anis. tut at this period it was equally unlaw ful before the bill was passed. The bill did not purport to alter the pruhibitions, but was passed with a totally deferent view. Several cases having come under his notice of extr:rne hardship arising out of impro vident marriages, after a little reflection he came to the eiinclissims that the whole system of voidable marriages was cruel and unjust, and that some alteration ought to be made. In some cases the offspring of the parents had con tinued yeas after year to consider themselves illegitimate ; they had even remained in passession of certain properties fur 30. 40, or 60 years, and at length parties interested had commenced an ecclesiastical suit for the purpose of voiding the marriage, and they had imme diately become bastardised. What was the remedy which he proposed ? After the death of one of the parties, with out any proceedings having been taken, the marriage be came lending, and no proceeding could be instituted. This established a limitation, but the period of limitation was uncertain, and he thought it better to abridge it and to enact that a marriage of this description should be voidable only within two or three years after it was contracted. At first this proposal seemed to meet with universal assent, but after a time opposition arose from the bench of the right rev. Relates, and after a time he found that the bill would inevitably be lost unless be adopted the amendments which were originated in that quarter. It was signed that, if parties lived in a state of cohabitation, they must take the consequences ; and hence his limitation was rejected. The question also arose what was to be done with respect to past voidable marriages. In those cases he proposed that the time of limitation should be a year from the passing of the act ; but it was ultimately declared that all marriages void able before the act should thenceforth tie void. There was Important clam of marriages of this description celebrated in foreign countries. The question involved in them affected an immense number of persona' in this country. Ile knew that there was a clergyman at Hamburg, who acted a part somewhat similar to thatrformed by a certain peon at Gretna-green ; being ready f or a small sum to cele brate marriage* between persons coming from this country, who were within the prohibited degrees, and who hoped that they might be considered, on their return to this eountry, lawful husband and wife. Sitting there as a member of a tribunal which might ultimately have to decide such questions, be did not feel justified in giving any opinion upon the subject; but oonsdesi , g the great numser of persons situated in this war he smut say that the question was of the utmost im portance, and deserved the serious attention of their lord shirtier a few words from Lord Campbell, the Bishop of St. Aseph, and the Bishop of Salisbury, the petition was ordered to lie on the table. THE SMOKE NUISANCE. Lord REDET3l)ALip;;;.;,;,;d,..Petitiocfrom the Lord I Mayor, Aldermen, and Common Council of London, pray ing for an extension to the whole of the metropolis of the pro visions contained in the London Sewer Act of 18.51, for abolishing the nuisance of smoke from steam-engines and I furnaces. The noble lord said that it was disgraceful to the metropolis that such a nuisance should be allowed to exist. The Earl of SHAFTESBURY heartily concurred in the prayer of the petition. The nuisance arising front smoke was injurious both to the health and to the pockets of the people. He had been matured by an extensive manufactur. r who consumed his own smoke, that he bad saved thereby in fuel and coal no less than 341111. a year. The petition was ordered to lie on the table. COUNTY COURTS FURTHER EXTENSION BILL. Lord BRUUOIIAM moved that the Commons' amend meats to the County Courts Extension Bill be eamielmed. The noble and learned lord stated that the most important of these amendments were the provisions for hemming the salaries of the judges of county courts to a minimums of 1,2001., and restraining them from private preetne in any capacity. Ile concurred in the principle of these amendments, but thought that their operation should be postponed for six months to enable those of the judges who had professional business on hand to complete it. Another amendment, of considerable importance, was, that banisters and ;Advocates practising in these courts might receive their instructions direct from the client without the intervention of an attorney. He was certainly anxious to have sten the county courts in this respect upon the same footing as other keourte, but he did nut mists to endanger the bill by moving an alteration that would interfere with an amendment on which the Howe of Commas evidently set great store, Ti g , L e n: CHANCELLOR regretted that statutable re plied= ehirigibaymbomm gmegneed to interfere with the peaftlinal ellinsiP bet Inv we unwilling to suit rd* sisna ai the ether Male. Still if the alteration were found to bring the law isle dis repute by the conduct of its menders, he 611°01 be ready to join in restoring the bet to its former position. Lord LYN lillUtt..Sl' supported the amendments, where. upon Lord CArehett. and Lord Unauwourit withdraw their opposition ; and the hill as thus aminided was agreed to. THE CASE OF MR. MATHER. Lord BEAUSIONT rose, according to notice, to draw the attention of the house to the correspondence respecting the assault committed on Mr. Erskine Slather at Florence. The noble lord end it was sine time since the papers had been laid on the table, and their lordships had had full op portunity of becoming acquainted with their contents. He would divide the subject into two parts—that which re ferred merely to the incident itself—and that which re ferred to the questions arising out of the negotiations to which the incident had led. The noble lord having narrated the facts se they have already appeared, said it was as clear as possible, from the evidence before their lordships, that Mr. Mather had in no way, either by gesture, WWII, or motion, attempted to insult the officer or du anything which he ought to resent. Whatever the officer might afterwards say was the impression on his mind, it W. 13 clear the youth had no intention whatever to insult him or any other person. For it seemed that when the brother 'sent to Prince Lichten stein, and was tel ing his story, the prince, having heard a different story from the officer, said—" Oh, but your brother put his arm thus." " No," said the youth, " he did not do that, but merely turned round to ask the meaning of the blow from the officer." Prince Lichten stein mid afterward. distinctly that the result of the inquiry instituted among the soldiers was entirely inconformity with what Mr. Mather's brother had told him, continuing the feet that the youth had not in any way out up his hand. Again, one of the gendarmerie stated, "The Englishman in no way offended the Austrian." Even 11aderrky laid— " The accident was without intending any olleace on the part of the Enelish.nan." The evident,: was equally clear that the offending officers had no intention whatever to in- atilt or injure any Englishman. They certainly did not know the man was an Englilonan, and could have hail no anti-English feeling in the steps taken. Nor had they any individual or personal feeling against Mr. Mather, being ignorant of who or what he was. The fact was they took him for an Italian ; and they seemed to have been in the habit of spurning Italians out of the way, as they did dogs. (Hear, hear.) Finding this man a little too near, they bad treated him as they were in the habit of treating the Tuscans when they came in their way . ; and if there was any feeling in the case, it was the anti-national feeling that existed between the Austrian* end the Tuscans. As soon as the wounded man was effiveyed to the hospital, the brother went to Mr. Scarlett ; and, subsequently, it ap• reared that both the broth( r and Mr. Mather relied on Mr. Searlett. They did not specify what they wished, further than using the word redress ; they left all to his judgment. They neither asked for a judicial inquiry nor for damages; in fact, Mr. Scarlett had the matter entirely in his ow.' Yawls. At first, it scented, Mr. Scarlett hail Pent the youth I with a letter to Prince Li, litenstein, laying—" lie is a very ped•natured man, and he will hear your story." It would lave been better had Mr.ficarlett himself ezamined into the Matter, and decided whether he ought to proceed unofficially with the Austrians, or officially with the Tuscan government. The youth was well received by Prince Lichtenstein, who pee full faith to his story. Mr. Scarlett, at any rate, had Nin his power to write home for instructions. Through out the whole of the proceedings, Mr. Mather had invariably ...ght to leave everything to the judgment and discretion tithe governmeat here, or of Mr. Scarlett at Florence. Dlr. Searlett first of all applied unofficially ; and there cer tainly seemed to bare been a considerable inclination as the part of the Austrian authorities, in the early and subs°. resent stages, to have arranged the matter unofficially. The iMpression on his mind was that the whole question might have been thus satisfactorily arranged ; baeauw, when once Prince Lichteestiiii was convinced that no insult was intended by Mr. Mather, it was riot necessary that he should state anything futther. If the officer on service, Lieutenant Fonthuber, had been under arrest, as well as Lieutenant Barb, who was not on duty, and if a full expression of regret had been made, there would have been little difficulty in coming to an arrangement, especially as the parties did not want any compensation, but thought the honour of the country was attacked in their persons. The reparation ought to have been an apology of that ge neral nature that it might have been considered not only a reparation to the Englishman injured, but an acknowledg ment of the right of Engliehreen to be protected in coati nental countries. Mr. Scarlett might have arranged this; matter unofficially. Not having done an, he had no choice hut to proceed officially. The moment he was left to do an Austria was rid of the whole case. (Ileac, hear.) It had been said by a high authority that Mr. Sca rlett was wrong in applying officially to Tuscany, that he ought to have gone to the Austrian authorities. What would have been the ease had he done so ? This would at once have been an official acknowledgment that Tuscany was made over to Austria. (Hear, hear.) Austria, no doubt, would have been very ready and antique to make any reparation, for the sake of having it acknowledged that she was the party to be applied to for injuries done in Tuscany —in effect, that Tuscany was part of Austria. (Hear, hear.) After that we should never have been utile to treat Tuscany as an independent power. Then the ques tion arose, what should be accepted as redress? This was not for Mr. Slather to Ray. It was a question between the government of Great Britain and that of Tuscany. Itwae their duty to fix that, and abide by their demand. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Scarlett, not at the desire of Mr. Mather, but as representing England, claimed a full judicial inquiry. The answer of the Duke de Castieliano merely went to ; concede a private inquiry to ascertain the facts, but not with the slightest idea of any verdict, or giving any repa ration. The court of inquiry was one to which none of the parties were admitted. A learned advocate was employed, hut he was of no use. After taking down the depositions of the witnesses, the power , of the court ceased. These depositions were sent to the Austrian officers, but not to Mr. Scarlett at all, who only obtained them, on appli cation, as • favour, the Duke de Cast:gliano main taining that he had a right to withhold them. Mr. Scarlett was thus put off in the must insulting manner. When the present government came into office, they had all the particulars before them ; and there was • demand for re dress. He regretted that the first course taken by the noble earl opposite was not a becoming one, or one that ought to have been adopted under any circumstance. The noble . sad (111alusibury) invited Mr. Slather to do what was the I dead*. government—to assess the damages in the vend keels% he biker • party concerned. Anything more ex- Inermillusey Am that was almost impossible. Mr. Mother had sward uswilling to give any opinion, and repeated dined twenty times that he wished to leave it to the meat to decide—that it was for Lord Matine e, e, say what lie thought was due to the bentlar of the country. (hear, hear.) If Lord Mabosbury had therefore stated what ought to have bola dam Mr. Mather would not have sad another mod to fray ; but it was too bard to force him to mess the massuot of redress, after he had so many times disclaimed the task. Ever, in the passage in which Mr. !slather men tioned the 5,000!., he refused to consider the question, without reference to British honour and interests. The noble curs instructions to our agent were that 5,000/. wag exorbitant, but that he must get what he could ; and here he must say that the noble Bart had stated what was really not quite borne out by the facts, namely, that Mr. Mather considered that the injury was one that might be stored for by money. Mr. Mather hau always said just this °cutlery ; and the statement of the noble earl had had a meet damaging effect upon him in the opinion of iseeignere, who had applauded his spirit in treating it, not as • personal, but u a national injury. (Hear, hear.) But the noble earl went on to see what could be got. He ap plied to Austria, but that power very wisely declined to put the screw on Tuscany, and would have nothing more to do with the matter. When the 5,000 e. was mentioned to the Tuscan government, it was horrified at the amount, and at once denied its responsibility. In deed, he must say that its conduct throughout had been most disgraceful. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord ought now to have taken steps to insist on hi. demand ; and he must do him the justice to say that he had the question of Tuscany's resporteibility—(hear, hear) — although Mr. Searle% in • paper which had been laid apes the table that day, appeared to have done so. But the noble earl, instead of insisting on what he had demanded, said, " Well, try to get 5001." Then there seemed to have been some disposition at Vienna to help Tuscany, sad to pay the money for it; but of course this could not be as eepted on the principle laid down by the noble earl. The noble lord, however, when he could not get 6001. he proposed an arbitration. He did not seem to care from whom he received the mossy, provided that it only appeared to come from Tummy. At this point Mr. Scarlett sickened, and then Mr. Banat appeared on the scene. He sent home a great deepatele, announcing the glorious news that the question was settled, not by the psymentof 5,0001., as Mr. Mather had demanded, nor of 1,000/. which the government could not get, nor 5001. which they had consented to take, nor by arbitration which they had offered. An unfortunate thousand francesconi was all that could be got, but then there wee something more. 'Two Stratford*, whom he (Lord Beaumont) really believed had been guilty of some great offence, were thrown is to make up for the loss. He (Lord Beaumont) did not suppose that the government here wen einunilted as to that arrangement, but it was one of the most extraordinary that could be conceived. Because A had done an injury to 11, 11 was to receive reparation by the exemption of C and 1), who had clime an injury to F. This was the monstrous principle of the arrangement; sad by it the Tuscan government escaped all responsibility whatever. Nay more, the Due de Ciutigliano actually went so far as to say that the money was not paid as • repara tion for the injury that had been done, but that it wag given to Mr. Mather out of the singular liberality of the Grand Duke—that it was, in fact, given to him as they would give mosey to • beggar who had no claim upon them. That was the manner in which Mr. Mather and this country had been insulted. (Hear.) Ile should conclude with a motion, seemly, that there should he an address praying that such child be laid before parliament, containing the Firtr er n s edeall be Sir Henry Bulwer, as would show under proost ebeametaotros what was the proper reparation to be sow daMasded, and what was the nature of that which had bore domoied boa the government of Tuscany. (Hear.) The Zed MALMESBURY would not detain their r o e into • detailed account of the case, W INO WON apposite—to whom he was extremely M Waft bought forward the subject—wag as fMe es psidliememil as be the eireametances of the acei dont and stir soma wild* Ilie.Matiter hail suffered. That asesslt whoa It Ibitt iteind rY eke noble earl's) duty to insider the naffs he hid WWI upon, as he hail :1= tease looked epee In • ONO Intel one. Ile t Wore was no eze••• wbswpar M that outrage ; and that it gas the set of • violate esel passionate man, acting without asgeostrol. and haviag boa excited to passion without =ideal game. He (the noble earl) had naturally spa till MN with the seam isdiasedioa, as it had THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, JUNE 22, 1852. excited in tho breast of every Effiglishnlasi ; and when it was ape in their lordships' hips'' his noble frisiod -sage head of Foreign they would retellatilles Impassion it mobs. sot they Zil"11181ne Noy post s ild alma la my, the brutal aente4 eserage ; is egad ese so so far u the .0 Mak lord at the head of the late goveudefeat had done, ea to look upon it as an lISINUIL upon lib country and es a national insult upon the honour of Great Britain. I Now, he begeed their lordships to considee what would be ' the consequence, if they were to lay it down as a rule that every Englishman who had received an affront or • per ' sonal assault in a foreign country was so identified with the ' national honour that the moment he was struck the bosom. of Great Britain was likewise stricken? (Hear, hear.) Suppose they carried the case farther, and suppo sed that M r.Mat her had been killed—suppose th eleven anllngliahman was murdered in a foreign country—what would be the conse quence to this country if they were to lead themselves called upon to revenge his death with the whole dignity and strength of the empire ? He looked upon the cane to be this: An Englishman might he insulted or injured in a foreign country as he might at home ; and he had a right to all the privileges that a foreigner would have enjoyed under similar circumstances, and to the same protection. from the laws of the country he might happen to be in. If those laws were justly dinpenscil when he applied to the tribunal appointed for such cases, he (Lord Malmesbury) did not think he had a right to ask for the interference of the British government. (Cheers.) Ile did not think the government was justified in interfering, until justice had been refused to an Englishman by the tribunal to which the natives of the foreign country would have been bound to apply. (Hear, hear.) No doubt his noble friend had acted ' from the best and most patriotic endives, but officially and legally he thought he was wrong in bringing the Foreign office into action, before the Tuecaus had closed their courts to Mr. blether, and until he had failed in obtaining from the civil courts of that country that reparation to which he was undoubtedly entitled. (Hear, hear.) The position in which he (the noble earl) found the lON was this :—Mr. Maher bail more than one swine open to him. lied he lived thirty years ago, there was one that he, and any of their lordships would have been, and must have been, with the opinions that then prevailed in this country an d on the continent, induced to follow. lie did not blame Mr. Mather tor nut having adopted that course. Their opinions had fortunately changed on that subject, but that was formerly the way in which a gentleman would have sought rep aration fore per sonal injury. Ile (the noble lord) shoul d be very sorry to think that another practice that went hand in hand with duelling was likewise abolished, and that it should ho thought contrary to the dignity of gentlemen, when they inflicted en injury, to make an apology for it. (Hear.) He thought that, generally speaking, where an insult was not premeditated, an ample, full, and frank apology was sufficient satisfaction. (Hear, hear.) A man's honour must always remain in his own bands; and he did I motley that Mr. Mather was wrong in refusing the ample apolozy that was offered him : for Lieut. Forsthuber was sent to him with another lieutenant who spoke English, to make such an apology in any term that he might desire, provided that be would only say that on his part he did not intend to insult him. Mr. Mather had therefore that mode of obtaining reparation, but he would not take it, and he refused the apology. lie went further than that. Ile positively refused to go into the civil courts. From the first his conduct was founded upon the principle that the assault was a national insult, and to that be (Lard Malmesbury) could never agree. Five days after he had entered upon his office he received a visit from Mr. Ma ther, who came of his own accord to consult him upon the business. He spoke of the assault upon hisses as a na tional insult ; but be (Lord Malinesbury) told him that the national honour was in his hands, and that that part of the affair wain* business of hie (Mr. Mather's), except so far as every Englishman WAS concerned in the maintenance of the national honour. He (the noble earl) said that the question divided itself into two pacts; and that with re gard to the first it was most essential that her Majesty's governmeut should not, by any act of theirs, admit the non liability of the Tuscan (government to afford redress. (Cheers.) The second point was that he (Lord Manes bury) should obtain the reparation. In answer to the question what he considered that reparation should be, Mr. blather said lie left it te him (the noble lord) to state. He I (the noble lord) replied that he ought to be treated as he would have been treated in England ; that he had • right to the same damages as he would have obtained in a court of justice, and that his (the noble lord's) influence should be exerci sed to obtain those damages for him. Mr. blather did mot object to that course, but lie asked for two days to consider and to consult his friends. He also re quested him (the noble lord) to state what was the amount of damages he ought to have ; and he replied that as he was going to consult his friends, he bad better also take their opinion upon that point. (Hear, hear.) Ile need hardly say any thing as to the justness of the determination to apply to the court of Tuscany. On that point the noble lord who had introduced the subject agreed with the government; but the head of the late government, and another noble lord greatly distinguished, had blamed him tor applying to Tuscany instead of Austria. Now, the government were without a Queen's advocate, and had therefore only their own judgment and common sense to rely upon • but it seemed to them that there were obvious reasons Why they should apply to Tuscany, and nut to Austria. (Hear, hear.) Ile seas of the highest political consequence induced them Missy the jurisdiction of Austria in Tuscany, under any tam, whether directly or Indirectly—(hear„ hear)—and they acted without • single doubt on that principle. His astonishment was, he must say, very great when this course was blamed by the two noble lords of,whom he had spoken. It appeared that no longer ago thou ISI9, the same Austrian army—for aught he knew the same officer and the same re giment—was in Tuscany, and that on entering Leghorn they committed great excesses and acts of violence upon some British property. Complaints were naturally made of this conduct, another kind of reparation being here required. (Hear.) Her Majesty's government consulted, no doubt, the Queen's Advocate ; and their lordships would judge of his astonishment when he rend the letter to which he was about to refer, written by Viscount Palmerston, then Minis ter of Foreign Affairs, to Sir George Hamilton, on the Bth of August, 1849. The noble earl then read he letter, in which it was mid, that inasmuch as the lasses complained of appeared to have been inflicted by a party of troops called into Tuscany by; the Grand Duke, her Majesty's govern ment must consider the Tuscan government responsible for those acts. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl also referred to • letter from Viscount Palmerston to Viscount Ponaonby, ambassador at Vienna, in the same year to the tame effect. Now it was • great *addiction to him to know that he had followed the same course as W predecessors with respect to that important point; eel he did not attribute to the noble lord the late l'rirne niter any further blame than that of having totally for =his own acts, when he reprimanded him (the Earl of bury) publicly for having applied to Tuscany band of Austria. (" Hear, hear," from the Earl of Derby.) With respect to the question of damages, it was quite possible that fur 5,000!. many of their lordships would be willing to endure the paiu and danger to which Mr. Mather was subjected ; but he did not think damages were to be estimated by that rule. (Ilear, hear.) They must see what damages would be awarded by British jurors, in a *matey where money was on a different scale from what it was in Florence. He had been accused of dishonouring Mr. Mather ; the late l'rime Minister had charged him with having taken away tho character of an independent and honourable Englishman, and blasted it by his interference. Why, it was one of the eoeuesseet things in the world for persons in ▪ Willheittesit to go into a court of justice for damages ; OA Wood, in a civilised country, it was almost the only sesseesioa that could be obtained. The noble UM opposite wholly mistook the matter. Ho hail never asked for damages for the injured honour of England, not conceiving that British honour was touched ; what he said was that Mr. Mather was en titled to such personal damages as he could have got in his own country. Ho did net wish to conceal any part of theft transactions ; and he candidly owned that there was MO fact with respect to which he was to blame. On flatax the 72nd, having received, as ho thought, the finaldag a settling the whole question, and, not knowing Rot Mr. Scarlett had waived the principle of responsibility, he did not open the other despatches which arrived, as he ought to have done, immediately. Such an error was, perhaps, very grave ; but he should not bo afraid of a 'reedit& pm nounced by a jury composed of ex-Foreign Secretaries; and he did not think any one who had not been in that office could have any idea of the immense quantity of work which fell upon tho holder of it. He might add, as a curious piece of information, that during t h e last year no less than 33,000 despatches passed in and out of the Foreign-office. To hint by far the most painful part of this matter was that the agent who was acting under his instructions, and who up to that time had always Oen great satisfaction to the government under which he screed, followed a course which he could nut but say wee entirely opposite to his instructions. His instructions, which the Prime Minister characterised as unintelligible, were three in number. The first referred to the responsibility of Tuscany for the protection of her Majesty's subjects either in her courts of justice or by her executive; the second was that for the personal injury which he had sustained Mr. blather should receive WI., and that no less would be accepted ; the third was, that if Mr. Scarlett failed to secure these two points from the Tus can government, he was to wait till Sir 11. Bulwer arrived at Florence. Ile could not understand, up to that moment, why Mr. Scarlett had not waited for that distinguished and noble diplomatist; and certainly, under the circumstances, he could not blame himself for writing as he had done to Sir 11. Bulwer, either to obtain the main points, or to close her Majesty's mission at Florence. (Cheers.) Lord CAMPBELL held that Mr. Barlett had been fully justified in concluding the arrangement he had made with the Tuscan government, and urged the vagueness of the instructions on which he had acted as the ground of jus tification. The Earl of ABERDEEN was of opinion that the de mand for redress might fairly hays been made either upon Amnia or Tuscany, hut preferably upon Austria. Atter = to 6 apology of Prince Schwarsenlierg, however, the honour ought have been satisfied, and Lord Meimesbery had done right in aßerwaris regarding thecae° OD time et mere personal injury, to he compensated pecu niarily by Tuscany. Earl GRANVILLE referred to various cases of armies esenpying foreign countries, and expressed a hope that the =itat would demand explanations from Austria and to the conditions of their occupation of the Italian gates. Ile thought it possible that such terms might be arranged by the mediation of this country as would lead to the withdrawal of these troops. (Hear, hear.) With re ference to the carp scut case, lie viudicated the lite govern ment from the charge of being too hasty and impatient in demanding reparation. That Earl st DEILLSY said it was accessary to draw a distinction between the national point of view, and that re garding the individual. If an Austrian officer bed cam , emitted Ws offence or insult spa oat a British subject as a national offence ; if he had joined, for instance, in pulling down the consular flag, or offering any insult which might be considered a national insult, he wee not prepared to say that we ought not to hold the nation employing that officer responsible for a national insult. (liesr, hear.) But in this case, from tint to lest, there was no question of national insult or indignity. (Hear, hear.) It was perfectly clear the officer did nut know that the offending party was an Englishmen, that he bail no previous malice or grudge against him. It was perfectly clear, from the very first, that all the Austrian authorities, differing from us as to the responsibility of the officer, joined in disclaiming any thing like national feeling, and in expressing regret at the unfortunate occurrence which bad taken place. Prince Lichtenstein, in his despatch, regretted the sad occurrence which had given rise to the negotiation, and hoped the English government would not have occasion to write to him again on such a subject. It was impossible for an officer placed in his position to offer a more 'landscape ex premien of regret; and when, at a subsequent period, Prince Schwarsenberg himself, en the part of the Austrian government, expressed their regret at the occurrence, all international feeling as between England and Austria might he considered to be at an end; and he joined in the observation that any apology flout the Austrian c nicer was unimportant, after receiving that signal and marked ex pression of regret from his superior. (Hear, hear.) It was unfortunate that in the first instance Mr. &Arlen had accepted the trust which Mr. Mather had placed in his hands; and had thus prematurely made what wan a per sonal matter, a question of international dispute. lie thought that the noble earl was therefore in error in making a demand upon Tuscan before reparation had been sought for in the Tuscan courts. (Hear, he r.) But supposing that reparation was to be given, what ought to be its character and quality ? Should it be so apology ? An apology was offered by Austria, and was re- jceted in a most contumelious manner by Mr. Mather, who demanded au inquiry, and the full and exemplary punish meat of the o ff ender. The only case in which the noble earl thought it wasa case for an apology for the government was in the case of the failure or unfairness of the tribunals. The noble earl lied instructed Mr. Searlett to demand an inquiry, and Mr. Scarlett reported that that inquiry had been a full and fair one, and had been conducte a with tio desire to screen any one. Then came the demand founded upon that inquiry, for the punishment of the offender. But the Tuscan government said they had a treaty with Austria which rendered that impossible, for the Austrian officers were withdrawn from the coguisance of the courts. Ile (Lord Derby) thought it would have been most unwise if they bad accepted the total irresponsibility of the Austrian troops, and had not called upon the Tuscan government at all. It wee a matter of the utmost impor tance to affirm and maintain the principle of Tuscan re sponsibility for injuries inflicted in Tuscany. The article in the treaty was one which this country was by no ratans bound to recognise, for it was not a patent, but a secret one, unknown to the other powers of Europe. (Hear, hear.) He thought he might venture to say, that in tho parallel case in 1/119 the late government had acted in precisely a similar manner, under the advice of the Queen's Advocate, when they hail felt it their duty to insist upon the sole re sponsibility of Tuscany for injuries inflicted in that country. (Hear, hear.) But if Tuscany was unable to punish the offender, it could afford reparation to the parties who were the sufferers. He (Lord Derby) had nothing to say against Mr. Mather's acceptance of a pecuniary compensation. Mr. Mather had demanded what was impossible ; for he had required Tus cany to do what by treaty it had pledged itself not to do; and a pecuniary compensation was the only thing left. It might have been more judicious, if the noble earl had fixed at once, if that could have been done, upon some flied sum which he might have demanded; but, the Lord Chief Justice himself had admitted that nothing could be mote uncertain than the verdict of a jury in such a case; and therefore the noble earl having cut down the exorbitant claims, had fixed upon a sum which he intended to demand as an acknowledgment of the principle of responsibility—not as a matter of favour, but as a right upon which he might insist by the law of nations. In the whole course of his proceedings, he (the Earl of Derby) avowed that he was as fully sail entirely responsible as his noble friend, for nut one of tho steps which he bad taken was adopted without his full knowledge and consent; and he (Lord Derby) was therefore just as open to censure, if any were deserved, as the noble lord himself. (Hear.) The fact was his noble friend had insisted throughout upon the point which was of the greatest importance, namely, the liability of the Tuscan government, and had resolved to have a tangible acknowledgment oh that prin ciple in the shape of a pecuniary compensation. Upon the maintenance of that principle he (Lord Derby) was ready to stake the reputation end existence of her Majesty's go vernment. (Cheers.) This recognition by the Tuscan go vernment of its responsibility for the safety of the Britesh subjects in its territories was the point upon which her Majesty's government had all along insisted, but which Mr. Scarlett, on his own responsibility, had not merely con sented, but volunteered to waive. To this settlement of the question the government could not give its assent, and therefore it was that instructions had been sent out to Sir 11. Bulwer to obtain a recognition of that principle; but it would be impossible at present to lay those instructions be fore the house. After some remarks from Lord STANLEY of Alder:cy and Earl FITZWILLIAM, Lord BEAL:MONT withdrew his motion. Several bills were forwarded a stage, and their lordships adjourned at a quarter past 12. HOUSE OF CONIMON3.—MosoAT. JUNE 21. The SPEAILLIL took the chair at 12 o'clock. PRIVATE BESINECS. The Lords' Amendnintst;the Cork Improvement Bill were considered and agreed to, and other amendments added. R 11.1.4 READ A THIRD TIME AND PAN4E.D.—Alltrdeen Hanimermen Incorporation; Adams's Estate ; Oedling's Estate ; Leith Exchange Buildinna ; Magdalen College ' (Oxford) Estate; Wes; Middlesex Waterworks; Bills. The Blanchester and Salford Education Bill was, on the motion of Mr. BROTHERTUN, further postponed for a month. PUBLIC BUSINESS. Nearly the whole of the morning siting was occupied in the dincussion of a proviso which Sir De Lacy Evans wished to introduce into the Poor-law Board Continuance Bill, for the perpo.e of exempting such prising as have local acts Irons the restraint of the board u regards the continuance in office or dismissal of officers. Government opposed the proviso, and it was rejected, on division, by 98 to 29, and the bill subsequently . passed. The house went into committee on the Metropolitan Burials Bill, and a clause and a half were dismissed, Sir W. CLAY moving amendments (a proviso), the effect of which was to prevent burial•gruunda being desecrated by being built on. He instanced Bunhill Fields, as evidencing the evil which he wished to obviate. At this stage, Mr. DISRAELI said that, as there wu likely to be se much discuw.ion on this proviso, ho would move that the Chairman repat progress. This was accordingly done ; this day at 12 being flied for the further committal of the bill. METROPOLIS WATER SUPPLY BILL. Read I. third time and passed. GENERAL BOARD OF HEALTH (No. 2) BILL. Read a second time. NISI FLUBS OFFICERS BILL Was considered, as amended, and ordered to be read a third time this day at 12 o'clock. BETHLEHEM HOSPITAL. Mr. ANSTEY moved for copies of the seports (with evi dence) of the Commis.ioners in Lunacy in respect to Beth lehem Hospital.—Agreed to. The house then (at four) adjourned. The house resumed at 6 o'clock. BRENTWOOD CHARITY SCHOOL. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, in answer to Mr. Hann ' CASTLII, explained that he had been induced to recommend the acceptance of 2,0001. for the 7,0001. due to the Brent wood School, the late head-master, by an arrangement by which the patron agreed to transfer the surplus of the charity connected with it to the school, in order to increase its effieitncy. PATENT-LAW AMENDMENT BILL. Mr. B. COCHRANE asked the Chancellor of the Exche quer whether it was probable that this bill would pass this session ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER amid the bill had passed the House of Lords, and stood very early in the paper for going into committee this evening, and under these circumstances he thought there was every chance of its passing. THE CASE OF MR. EDWARD MURRAY. Lord STANLEY, in reply to Lord D. STUART, stated there was reason to believe that Mr. Murray's life would be saved, and that Sir H. Utiliser and Mr. Moore were en gaged in obtaining information to enable government to satisfy themselves as to his guilt or innocence. 111 E PROCLAMATION AGAINST ROMAN CATHOLIC YILOCESSIONS. In answer to Mr. OROGAN, Mr. WALPOLE said he was not aware whether thi, proclamation had appeared in the Dublin, Gazelle, but it might have. BUSINESS OF TIIE HOUSE. The CllllsiehaatofateEiCilittliiit said it wu always with great reluctance that he touched upon the questions of private members, but he thought, if the house would allow the government to proceed with government business to-morrow evening, as well as in the morning, it would tend much to the progress of public business. He had been looking at the notices of motion., and they were certainly not of a very urgent character. There was a mo tion of the hon. member for Richmond for a select commit tee on the police force. Then there was a motion by the hon. member for Westbury on the sugar trade, which under other circumstances he should have listened with great interest ; and there were one or two other motions which he thought were not of that urgent character which should at the present moment occupy their time. Though they arranged the business with a certain day in vies.for the settlement of all things, there were certain oecasionslike that of last Monday night in which hon. gentlemen might be justified in occupying the attention of the house, but the motions to which he had referred were not of that na ture, and he hoped therefore that government might be allowed to take the whole of to-morrow. (Hear.) Mr. HUME said he had given a notice on import duties, but he willingly gave way. Mr. RICH said the observations ho had to make to. MUTTON would not take fite minutes. Lord J. RUSSELL said his hon. friend the member for Westbury was not present, but he was quite sato he would SF"' Mr. V. SCULLY suggested that to expedite business the Valuation (Ireland) Bill should be withdrawn. It in troduced • new system, very few Irish members were in town, there war notice of no less than 00 amendments, and he himwlf had a number of amendments to propose, which he should bring forward if thu bill was to proceed. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said cer tainly. alter the menacing observations of the hue. gentle man, be should pause, but he understood that these amend ments were either nut opposed, or would not require dis cussion. They should NCO when the bill was brought on. If two additional days weru required to paws thu bill, he should nut mess it. But the 11011. IMMIX( fur Colchester was not in the house, and he sliiiuld be happy to hear his opinion, beams-, without his consent, they would hardly be able to come to the arrangement. [[the hon. member for Colchester had given notice fur the aboition a church rates.l Mr. BRIGIIT said though he took great intere , t in the question of church rates, he should certainly uric the hon. member for Colchester not to proceed with his motion. THE RECENT MINUTE OF Till- COMMITTEE OF COUNCIL ON EDUCATION. On the order of the day for the consideration of the Con solidated Fund Appropriation Bill, Lord JOHN RUSSELL called the attention of the house to the recent minute of the committee of council on educe than. lie sketched the history of the educational grant from 1832, and the opposition which had been made in 1h39 to the placing it iu the hands of the Privy Council, at which time the present Lord Derby bad imputed every kind of dishonourable motive to the then eel ' "stration. The then proposed arrangement bail, however, been car- I tied, though by small majorities ; hostility and jea• hotly had gradually been allayed, and a &tided improve ment bail been matte in popular education. More recent changes had again been made, chiefly with a view to satisfy the advocates of the voluntary principle ; but the church of! England hail no reason to complain of an arrangement which left her schools p, per cent. of the while grout, and allowed no inspection of them withbut the 'sanction of the archbishop of the province. Yet even this had s hated no complainti irons dissenter.. It hail, !lawyer, been din tiuetly decided that in the committees of management no absolute power over secular education was to be left in the hands of the clergy. A certain small but very active I potion of the clerical body had struggled fur isle power, but a satisfactory state of things had continued until the noble lord at present at the head of the government came into office, and he (Lord J. Russell) owned it appeared to him that it would have been wise, considering thedifficulties of the first introduction ut this arrangement— considering that the established church and the dissenting I bodies seemed to be ,ati,died with What hail Leen done—it seemed to him that it would have been wise, espe cially as the university did not bring forward these measures to which they attached importance, to have left this question untouched. (Cheers.) hush was not the course taken by her Majesty's government. The appointment of the Committee of the l'rivy Council, a very responsible body, was not officially annuunced.—(The Chancellor of the Exchequer: It was published in the London Gazette.) —That was true, but it had not been laid on the table of the house. Without knowing who were the members of that body, he found that on the 12th of June they came to a very important resolution. He had stated Out, at pre sent, if there was any difference between the committee conducting the school and the clergyman of the parish with respect to religious instruction, that difference had to be re ferred to the bishop of the diocese, who had the sole power of deciding it; if, on the other hand, a difference arose not relating to the religious instruction it was provided that the Lord President of the Council should name ono of the inspectors of the church schools, that the bishop of the diocese should name a clergyman to whom the difference should be referred, and that if the two could not agree, that they should then choose a magistrate of the comity in which the school was situate, and who must be a layman, whose decision was to be tinal. The impectors of the church schools were gene rally clergymen, so that these arbitrators would in most cases consist of two clergymen to one layman. It appeared to him that there could be no danger of any unfair bias against the church being manifested in a court of appeal thus constituted. But it appeared that the present com mittee of the privy council did not think that was security enough, for they had inserted words in the new minute by which it teacher might be dismissed on other grounds than those of a religious character. They had inserted the words ti mural grounds," and it was quite clear that the inser'ion of them words placed the tahnolinester in entire dependence on the bishop. (Cheers.) There could be nu doubt as to that, because it must of course depend on the view which the clergyman of the parish took of moral grounds, whether or not he thought proper to continue the schoolmaster in his situation. 'the words "moral grounds" were most ob jectionable. It would be impossible for the schoolmaster to satisfy the clergyman, for they all knew how various the opinions on '• moral grounds" would be. Some ch rgy men might of that the teacher was too lax, and that he gave too much recteatitin to his pupils; another might object on the opposite ground, that he was too puritanical and strict. (Hear, hear.) There was no ground of ob jection to • schoolmaster which could not be said to his a moral ground ; and therefore he must at once feel himself dependent on the clergyman, Ile had often stated that it was most desirable that the situation of the schoolmaster should be raised, that he should have the name of living by his school, and that his position should be elevated in the view of society. (Hear, hear.) Evi dently the consequence of the words, "moral grounds," would be to lower and degrade the condition of the school waster. (Hear, hear.) Some gentlemen had called upon him that day who had held a meeting on the subject, which would have been a large one had it been fairly advertised, and who bad told him that they all felt that their situation was changed in COllstillICOCC of this al- , teration in the minute of council, and that every clergyman would have the means of depriviug the schoolmaster of his situation and of the meows of earning his bread. (Hear, hear.) Ile (Lord J. Russell) thought that was perfectly true. It was hardly to be expected indeed that the bishop would not take the view of the cler heman complaining and sanction his judgment. (Hear, ar.) This was his first objection to the minute. The next referred to the influence of the lay members of the local committee. It bud always appeared to him to be of the utmost importance that they should induce laymen to take an interest in the management of those school, lie was fully aware how greatly the parochial clergy of the country had directed their atten tion to schools both by giving money and time, and by inquiry as to the best modes of education; but it was equally for the interest of the chute'', as of the cause of education, that lay men should be induced to take an inte rest in the schools. But if they told the lay members that a schoolmaster with whom they were well acquainted, whose conduct they had approved, and *hum success they had ap plauded, should be at once dismissed on moral groom's, they would diminish the incentives to superintendence and exertion on the part of the lay members, and they would be disposed to leave the schools at once in the hands of the c,ergy men. (Hear, hear.) The church of England lead its points of weakness and its points of strength. In Isis conviction its points of weakness or danger were leas than its points of strength; but he believed that it required the concurrence, the co-operation, and the affection ut its laity, which were the best founda tions of strength and power in the. church. The effect of the minute was to diminish the strength and to increase the danger of the church. Its effect was to diminish the natural disposition of the laity towiseds the church, and to place in the hands of the clergymen, by the mere exercise of their authority, the supreme control over the education of the people of the country. For there reasons, he thought the minute was very objectionable. But while he stated that, he must add, that he did not think its effects would be fully apparent for name time to come. Ile had heard it stated, by a person well acquainted with the subject, that in six or seven years, in consequeuce of thiscommittee, the laity would be altogether excluded from the management of the schools. He (Lord J. Russell) doubted whether the effect would be produced so soon. (Hear, hear.) But, at all events, it must be regarded as the beginning, on the part of the present government—(cheers) —.which had so lately come into power, and which owned itself weak in that house, and which had declared that it would in that session propose only humble and useful mea sures, but which had begun the session with a measure neither humble nor useful—(laughter and cheers)—it was the beginning of a course which, if the people of England should give them greater power, would be pursued until a complete alteration in the educational system bait • n sleeted, and all the votes of parliament in its support ut done. (Cheers.) Having been the first person who tiro recommended to the crown that this committee of the Privy Council should be nominated, and having supported the system, whether in or but of office, lie trusted that be was justified in expressing his opinion on the beginning of a change in it; but, before he concluded his observations, he wished to say a word to the house 114 to what had been the custom. There would have been no inconvenience if the go rnment had postponed the publication of any alteration it in tended until the next year, mid hail out changed the general rule upon which this grant waa voted. But no sooner was it announced—and announced in a most important manner by the voice of Archdeacon Denison, in the meeting of the National Society, that the change on which lie had been outvoted in the former year was now to be made, and that the majority would have to bow to the authority of the go ' veinroent—no sooner was it announced, than a general alarm took place among its opponents. Some said that the charter of the National Society was controverted—which charter left it to a public meeting to choose its officers an , nuttily, and thus gave to the emeriti body of subscribers an annual opinion on their conduct; some that :the committee of the society was unfairly constituted, and that there should be some alteration in the charter of the National Society. Others said the Queen's letter ought not to be issued or that, if issued, those who differed from the society should refrain from subscribing. That was the language which hail beet, held. It was stated, on the one hand, that dis trust and division had been created by the appearance of this minute. (Cheers.) It was stated, on the other hand, that the subscribers would continue to assist in the main tenance of the schools. If that were so, there would be mine force in tee objection. But it wax not the ease. The promoters and the subscribers maintained the schools. %Vhat was pommel by the promoters was, that there should be a permane ut deed, • permanent trust, settling that the clergyman should have the power Ito had mentioned. It might be that, ten years hence, the subscri• hers would wish a change to be made, but the deed or trust being permanent, they would be without the power to alter it. Therefore it was that the local sub scribers at once end decidedly objected to place for all future time the management of the schools and the educa tion of the country in the hands of the church. Another observation inade nee of the: ilium, was, ditto it wets similar to that made by the late government with regard to the Roman catholic+. What was conceded on the latter Unman to the funds of Emdliali catholic scLoola was, that the bishops and priests of the Roman eatleiiie communion should conduct the religious instruction awl should d e cid e for theintelves what that religious instruction should h e . That was differeut, in the first place, front what was dune in our eehools, and, in the second place, the institution of the church of Rnglaud was different from that of the church o f Rome. (Hear, bear.) The nature of the establi s h e d church was, that it cousin:lA not of the church id one, but of the church and Indy combined. (Hear, hear.) That was a point which lie thought it was melt desirable to keep in view, and which he believed the people of this e•aintry wou d not overlook. So long as the church of liaglana existed, and whatever the condition of the clergymen, that church would consist of clergy and laity, and all questions relating to education ought to be decided by both. lie Ind not stated his views on this emit subject as if it were u qui stern between one party Mal atm. tlit•r in that house. (Hear, hear.) He believed tints , were many of the hon. gentlemen who sat opposite, end who, whatever their poldictil opinions ' agreed with him in the opinions he was then upholding. liclieviug, as he did, that the strength of the church consisted in iss having the sup port of the laity us well as of the clergy, h 2 said that the goserument of the country ought to he most careful to set tling any alteration in the mode of eduction from which an impression might go forth, and he thought that im pr. 'whin would go forth, that hereafter the schoolmaster in any parish was to depend on tie will of the aini.e, r of the without any iutertert nee being silo ced to the laity. Ile had uniter.tood that the n ble lord et the head of the government had stated that the grant should not lie distritiutial according to the altered minute, out an opportunity being allowed for its discussion in par liament. So far, then, there wu some security, for the present at least ; and he hoped that, dut.eg the interval, the mutter would be well considersil by the novel-inmost and the people, uud ti ,t when they hail fairly and fully considered it, they would fee how important it was tint to disturb a system which had worked well, but that they would maintain the principle on which tho system was found, d. (Hear.) Mr. WALPOLE said that the question was into of great importance, and notwithstanding they were at the close of the session, and the pr., sure of business, he wen glad tolled that an opportunity had been made to bring it before the house, as the discussion would remove: rummy illusious re , sowing the minute, in some of which the noble lord tvi , &idly participated. The noble lord did nut fully under , stood the nature of the minute to which he relined. The . • ... noble lord found fault with the government for making this minute without previously eumiug to parliaeient,ane 'dating that the minute was tube made before the vote for education was taken. But the la.t words of the mode lord's speech would clear the goverierneut from any intention of apply ing the grant to any other purpose than that to which par liament had intended it should be applied. (near, hear.) The noble lord (the Earl of Derby) had distinctly promised, as the noble turd (Lord J. Iluseell) had stuted, that the grant should not he distributed this year according to the altered minute. But the subject to which the node lord wi-lied to call attention were the manag.•.nent clauses, or rather the alteration, and there he (Mr. Walpole) thought arose his illusion. Before following the noble lord in his observations, he must be allowed to go back to a more period,dietnot because he thought he could show that the gust rnment was merely restoring and gis ing back to the church what parliament Lad almiye intended it should possets. flee first time when the grant me. made was in 1832, when the amount was 10,000/. It was mode to the Driti , li and Fore ign Society as tepee settling the non-cunlhrmists, and to the National Society so representing the chute h. But there was no audit nor exa mination, except as to the state of the schools noel their numbers, and so thiegs went on until 1339, when an alters faun was made by the government of which the noble lord was so conspicuous a member, an alteration which made a considerable stir, as on its being mace dallied that the govern. ment intruded to transfer the control from the societies to the Committee of the Piety Council, such seeterm was raised as induced the cabinet to abandon the proie.sed alteration. That proposal having been riven up, an arrangement was effected between the Committee of Privy Couueil and the church—and remember that he as wail as the noble lord included the laity with the clergy in that term. (Cheers.) In cousequence of the stir to which he had alluded, an understanding was come to, be tween the Privy Council and the government, to the effect that no further control should be exercised over the schools of the church of I:ugh:mil than was thought UM*. salty for the examination and inspection of the schools with reference to the due disecisal of the money which paha mutt had granted. In a minute of council and subsequent corn:swede:nee they were distinctly told there was to be no impaction as to management or internal disci pline. So matters continued from 1810 until 1816; that was to say, so long as a conservative go- Tenement remained in power, and no eomplsint was urged against these grants for the whole of that eeriod, while during the same period the managers and promoters of the schools had for the first time liberty of action to cum duct them as they thought proper. But when the noble lord's government came in, 11l 1846, an entire change was made. (Hear, hear.) Not openly, by announcing it to parliament, but by private letters, and uuostentatiously, as it was called, was this important change effected. These changes, or management clauses, as they were called, were drawn up in the form of suggestions or recommendations, but in effect were enforced iii such a manner as to become obligations imposed on the members of the church, and unit ss promoters of RC:110018 consented to accept those clauses which were suegested as recommend:alum they were not to partake of one shilling of the parliamentary grant. That took place in 1816, and most justly the church complained of what was done. They said in all the correspondence between the National Society and tho government that they ought to have a power of eelecang one of the four clauses, so as, at all events, to have perfect freedom in the constitution of the school, and that power was denied them. (Hear, hear.) Such denial wad con trary to the agreement come to in 1840, and if the present government had restored the power by the minute under consideration, it was only doing an act of justice, which be was sure would contribute, not to increase the differeeces in the church, but, as lie believed, would effect a restora tion of harmony. (Ministerial cheers.) Ile hail cow gone through the history of these clauses, for the purpose of bringing the house to the exact defame in ielaxation which had been made by the present gun rumen.. The noble lord objected to these relaxatious en three grenade—first, as degrading every schoolmaster; second, as weakening the lay members of the committee ' • and thirdly, as separating the clergy from the laity for the pummel' of education. Now, what had made him (Mr. Walpole) say that the noble lord was under an illusion was the Lying dawn of them grounds. The noble lord said that the minute would de grade every schoolmaster, end separate the clergy tram the laity s but the object of the minute, as the government ',re posed it, was not to substitute new management clauses for all promoters of church schools, but situaty to say, where precedent of church schools preened that the management clauses should he so placed as to give the derity and laity the power of objecting on the score of conduct as will as of teaching, that that power should be conceded to them. That being the seen and substance, the beginning and the end, of the alteration, be did not see what reason the noble lord had to complain. (Ministerial cheer's) The noble lord would nor, he was sure, advocate anything that interfered with free action in the matte, of education, unless tech action took a direction in the disposal of pudic mum de trimental to the puhlie good. If that was so, what was the principle upon which they were proccediag, the plan they proposed, and the advantage they contem plated ? The principle woe simply that the promoters of every school should lie at liberty to constitute those eshools as they liked, and, having thus constituted them, Medd be entitled to receiver a portion of the public money M the same way as other parties. That was the whole principle for which they contended. (Ileac, hear.) Ile agreed with the noble lord that the management of those schools where the state gave aid should be under the control of the state, so as that the public money should not he employed where it was not intended. lle agreed fully as to the propriety of that control, and also agreed, in as ter as his cm a opinion was concerned, in the position that the lay element should censtitute a great part of school government; but lactate be agreed on those points, and because his own opinion lay in that direction, lie would not deprive another person who I thought he could conduct a school better in a different way of the power of coming to parliament and saying, "I am as sincere as you in seeking to advance education, and think lam entitled to some portion of the grant." Ii they did net make this coueemion, they would tam , away the inducement from many parties to found scheils ; for persons entertained very different opinions on the subject of management. Sonic preferred that the ley element shook" predominate, while others thought that all should be under Siastical superintendence. Others, again, said that, provided the moral and religious instruction was sound and Prime, it mattered little what were the tenets of the teacher, or even his moral conduct. There was yet another earty, who would say, and with equal justice, that it could not have confidence in the teaching unless they knew the tenets and morals of the teacher. (Bear, heard 11 • part, took that view, he contended that, unites they e.t.d.' to destroy freedom of action, such party was entitled to endowment. and then what objection could exist 4 ,04 the minute ? But what was the policy intended to be carried out by the relaxation of these management clauses? It was that which of all others induced bins to think that the alterations would be eminently advantageous and ',nee filed ti the country. It was became he firmly Is is reel that Meteael of increasing differences in our church. they would tend to allay such differences, that he promoted these relaxations. They (the government) said that since 1846 the National Society hail had deVISiOUS in its Nell , principally owing to the restrictions impaled be the ma nagement clauses. In 1818 that society carried, hr large majorities, resolutions against the government for mite dig to those clauses. In 1819 they did the same; and in led -- he believed there was some division in the early nart of the year—hut in the latter part of the year Lord Imnralosno said, in answer to Lord Harrow by, that he would n et ob. pet to a committee of inquiry in the following se ssion ' Then, in 1851, for the first time they began to etc se thing like satisfaction, because it watt Weal that those members of the church who had been de priced of the grant were likely to have .o' oo dune them. That woo the reaton they had carried the mi nute of the 12th Jut,e, and the National Society met far the first time in perfect harmony. (Iroitieeleheere.) At in considerable harmony, and both parties in the ,vial might be seen heartily congratulating themselves e n the change. Ile hoped, therefore, that all rival , y would except an emulation to excel in pronsotina the esnwl i t came of education. Ile trusted that there would be se dent freedom of action in the constitution of the schools and, looking at the question in all its bearings, he said that their policy was just in itself, and lie trusted would be beintivial to the country. Ile firmly believed t hat if slowle hose the t t the nt did. WI. , • ia the church, there never hail been ace eer lawn cont h , "." on that church, nor on the country of that churc 'Ms the osuauzent. (Cheer.) Sir ri • ter Ire* ~r e s Oatrs" r. The was co this , la AIM dered, Mill °Mere, The brief d Mr. the Us 101., ai move I be red Mr. vere the bil twos vi ence of .