The Express. — London, England, 1848-04-14 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS.—TTIURSDA, 6 APRIL 13. The LORD CRANCILLOR Wok his seat at o'clock. PUBLIC BUSINESS. PETMONB.—By the Dole of BJCIDIOND. Earl of &nervosa and lord Bummer, been ranee lodges of Odd Fellows, praying that they might be legallied.—Duke of Itinuova from Menem, against the legacy duty parable on charitable bequeges—The Bishop of Wrie cse-na from two places in Ws diocese, in favour of tannery reform. PIBST READINGS—Mmriage Act Amendment, (Scotland) ; Register of Births . Deaths, and Marriages (Scotland); bills. SEWN 0 BEADLNGS.—Ranont of Aliens Bill COMMITTEES.—MatIoy; Morns Mutiny ; Bills. ROYAL ASSENT. The royal assent was given by commistion to the following bills :—The Property Tex Bill, the Stamp Duties Assi milation Bill, and the Administration of Osths (Court of Chancery) BEI. The Lords C o mmissioners were the LORD CRANCRLLOR, the Earl of SiterrlinUttY, and Lord CAMP RILL. THE JESUITS IN ENGLAND. Lord REDESDALE wished to puts question to the noble marquis (Lansdowne) in reference to the Removal of Aliens Bill as to the Jesuits—a body who were expelled from nearly every part of Eurspe, and who were likely woo to appear in this country. The order had been viewed with great jealousy from the earliest period, and had before been put down or expelled from every country in Europe, and at last the head of the Roman Catholic religion suppremed the o rder entirely in 1773. It was restored again by the Pope in 1814, and bad again contrived to make itself generally odious in all the countries where it had been established. There was a newspaper called the Tablet, which was the organ of that order, and in an article which appeared in that paper on Saturday sees it was stated that ii armed resist. ance were re sorted to by the Irish the paper in question would advocate it with all its might ; they preyed that t ed. the o ple might triumph and the government be defea The noble lord proceeded to read other similar passages from the article is question. It was notorious that in Ireland the agitation connected with repeal was almost entirely coofined to the Roman catholic population, and no one knew what in fluence the Jesuits might have over the religious part of the population. The principles which were influencing that older, as the article from the blot showed, wo would rable be likely to encourage the people to rebellion. It was under these circumstances to know whether an application had been made by the Jesuits to come into this kingdom ; and therefore he would move for a return of all applications from Jesuits to come into the kingdom, and the number of licenses granted to them under a certain set of parliament. The le arquis of LANS DO WN E said that upon inquiry he found that although it was undoubtedly true that the Je suits were required by law when they came to this country to apply for licenses, yet in point of fact ever since the Emancipation Act iu no one instance had any such license been applied for. t'ertainly the government has no official knowledge of any such persons coming into this country, and he had no mean, whatever of answering the question of the noble lord. He would, however, attend to the matter. Lord BEAU MON r thought it would be well if the society of Jesuits did not exist, although he bad passed many years with them. But they were excluded from catholic countries, not in consequence of their wish for change of government, but because they were too conservative, too aristocratic • class, and opm wed to change in existing forms of govern ment. He believed that the Tablet was in no way connected with the Jesuits, but was the property of a Mr. Lucas, a quaker, who had turned catholic, and the abusive and vulgar style of the articles in his paper was that most likely to sell it in Ireland. The Jesuits had no refuge in Europe, but they seemed to have hope in the hospitality of this country ; and it they did no overt act to excite the disapprobation of the government, he trusted they would not be judged by their acts in other countries. (Hear). He would join in putting down any insurrection, but he objected to put a power into the hands of a secretary of state, which would enable him to gratify foreign d governments by driving from our sho persona who ha given no cause of offence here. (Hear, hear.) As to the Removal of Aliens Bill, he thought there was no occasion whatever for it; and it was evident, from th , spirit which had been exhibited by Englishmen, that they would not be influenced by foreigners who had taken refuge here, and who might he imbued with repub lican principles. Perhaps the government were looking alone to other countries, and no doubt scenes had taken place in France calculated to excite alarm ; but there was so fear of their being imitated here. (Cries of " Question.") He thought the noble lord opposite had made a motion. Lord REDESDALE had asked a question, which had been answered by the noble marquis, who said he had re ceived no information on the subject ; and the matter having been promised to be attended to by the noble marquis, he had no further remarks to make on the subject. BIRTHS, MARRIAGES, &c. (SCOTLAND). Lord CAMPBELL laid on the table two bills of consider able importance; one to establi-h a register for births, mar riage, and deaths, in Scotland ; and the second to alter the law of marriage in Scotland. Atter a few observations from Lord Boocogam, the two bills were reed • first time. REMOVAL OF ALIENS BILL. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE moved the second read ing of this bill, and said that the noble lord (Lord Beau mont) had not convinced him that he was wrong in bringing forward the measure. He wished to afford an unretricted hospitality to all foreigners, put there might be exceptional cases, and to those cases alone the bill applied. There were no means of ascertaining the number of persons who came to this country, still less could it be discovered who might come for legitimate and who for illegal purposes ; and therefore he could not present any statistical details to their lordships. But the observation of all who walked the streets of the metropolis or elsewhere must have convinced them that there was a great increase of foreigners iu this country, and no doubt a great many had come with a view of taking part in the civil dissensions of this country. The bill did not ask for any indiscriminate authority to send such per sons away, neither would their conduct elsewhere, but their conduct here alone, be taken into consideration. (Hear, hear.) His noble friend said that the eveats of last Monday proved th :re was no fear of the people of this country acting under the instigation of such persons. For tunate as had been the result of the proceedings on Monday, not only evincing as they did the extent of the loyalty of her Majesty's subjects, but that they were determined not only now, but hereatter, to preserve order sad maintain the peace, yet be was not prepared to say that there was not in ether parts of the kingdom a disposition to obtain that assistance. (Hear.) Many weeks had not elapsed since the proof was afforded of persons in Ireland endeavouring to obtain the assistance of foreigners for the destruction of this country, were it in their power. (Hear, hear.) It was, therefore, necessary for the government to be on their guard, and they proposed the bill only fur a period of one year. (Hear, hear.) The noble marquis then detailed the provisions of the bill, and said the discretion as to the removal of foreigners might be safely en trusted to his right hon. friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department, subject to the control of p rliament. lie intended to propose some slight modifications in coin =Mee. The Earl of ELLENBOROUGII thought that one of the greatest benefits that could be conferred on this country would be the burning of every copy of Hansard, and not locking to what had been saidas to past cases; regarding only the present evils, and the remedies necessary to be applied to them. He thought the meat urn was not sufficiently strin gent. If the noble marquis could not tell the number of aliens in this country the act would he inoperative. The Alien Act of 1836 obliged every captain of a snip to bring to number and names of aliens whom he might bring to this country; but he had no means of compelling them to give their names. It was true the foreigner was to produce a t passport, but if he did not do so he wan only liable to a fine of 40s. ; and how could they tell an alien to leave the country if they did out knew bin name ? Unless this bill were accompanied by the most stringent measures of registration and passport, it would be quite ineffectual. The noble earl then recited the provisions of the act of 1816, and contended that the measure of the noble marquis was a mere fractional part of the Alien Act, and likely enough to deter foreigners from coming here, but very ill adapted to send them out of the country after they had arrived. He believed we never before had so little regarded a revolution as that which had recently occurred in • neighbouring country. On former occasions the minds of Englishmen were horrified with the bloodshed of the French revolution; but that had not been the case yet with reference to the last: ruin had certainly been the result,but it had been gradually operative. It was well to guard against the in fl uence of French. repub licans in this country, but he believed the bill before their lordships would be ineffectual for that purpose. Earl GREY said the provisions of the Alien Act were not sufficient to obtain a perfect registration of foreigners coming to Eughind, arid he was afraid it was impossible to contrive • system of passport which would not be highly offensive to parties who bad no criminal intention. (Hear, hear.) This bill would give a power to the government, if informa tion were obtaiucd that any particular emigrants were in citing disburbance and resistance to the law, to remove them, and he thought foreigners couid not so conduct themselves without the fact being ascertained. He firmly believed the bill would be effectual for the purposes for which it was de signed, and he should not like to see introduced a system foreign to the customs of the country. (Hear.) Lord BEAUMONT regretted, in the present state of the continent, where it was clear that the governments of Europe must be remodelled, that a personal attack should have been made by • noble and learned lord opposite (Brougham) on certain princes of Europe, who had been abused and caricatured by the noble and learned ]ord in no measured terms. Ile did 110 t hesitate to defend the conduct of the Kiog of Sardinia, which had been condemned by the noble and learned lord in 1 swinge SO objectionable and unqualified. It was well known that for the last ten year', in consequence of the con d set of Austria, many of the states of Italy were deprived of tb air independence, being in fear of that power; and if they ha d given their people the rights which they were entitled to :him, it was known the Austrian government would has e invaded their territories to put down the march of free dom . The states of Italy had long sought for independence and institutions, which they had been afraid to claim from fear of Austria. The revolution in Vienna had weaki 'reed the Austrian power, and it was felt that she could no lon ler crush any attempt at insurrection in Lombardy. Sardin 'a and the Roman states had not taken any step until Milan had declared her independence, and then they interfere d because they had no choice but to do so or place thenmele, "4 in danger by • war between France and Austria. Austria s i cel long dictated in the proudest and most insulting terms to th t Mates of Italy. She had laid neighbouring states waste, and broken the Sanity of Vienna, but her power was now an.lvering to stems--it was now crumbling to nieces, and ha d not the King of Sardinia, the Pope, and the Duke of Tow. SOY a right to look to their own interests and protect their s übjects ? This they bad done, and Ise c ontended they hnd done no more. (Hear, hear.) Lord BRouorima said his noble friend had certainly made a very el ue nt speech, but of all the figures by wbfeh •i t was • d, Ailloostion warn UM gWsi resaukable. THE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EVENING, APRIL 14, 1848. (A laugh.) When the Alien Bill was net before the house, he made a speech on it,- now he had dwelt on other sub jects. (Hear, hear.) It waa • saying that it was good to leave well alone ; and perhaps it was es well to leave alone for fear of making it worse. He thought the Holy Father, if as infallible in temporal as he claimed to be in spiritual matteve, would not thank his noble friend for his defence. He (Lord Brougham) believed the King of Sardinia to have acted out of fear of his Geoueee subjects, and from a desire to make himself king of the north of Italy. To the Holy Father he ascribed no worse a motive than the v and per the nicious desire to make himself popular. This h ad given impetus; but his subsequent motive had been the basest that could sway a ruler—the fear of the Roman populace. If anything could draw down contempt on those entrusted with temporal power, it was the fear of(Hear dotng he thar.)eir. duty, lest it might re nder them unpopular. , The history of Europe for half a century had shown the evil effects of succumbing to a mob, and betraying a solemn duty to popular opinion. He was sorry to accuse Pius IX. of h a ving acted thus. As to Cha rles Albert he did not doubt his capacity for effecting that movement technically called a retreat ; this he would doubtless effect very quickly, and get out of the enemy's way. He mug either do this, or conquer Radetzki before he could poison Lombardy. (Hear ) After the treaty of Vienna bad existed a quarter of a cen. wry, and become the statute law of Europe with vegsrd . to territory, it became the most imprudent thing to disturb it ; but if without such disturbance the freedom of Italy could be assured, no one would have a right to complain. It wee the greatest mistake to suppose that the Austrians were not iusufied in doing what they did at Ferrara. Heel the Pope, instead of appealing to considerations which might increase his popularity, merely insisted on the Austrians keeping within the fortress, they must have done so; for Austria had as perfect a right to that fortress as the Pope himself had to his castle of St. Angelo. Thus much in reply to what had !ellen from his noble friend op posite, who, he hoped, would have no difficulty in obtaining absolution from the Holy Father for this extraor dinary defence of him. The noble lord then referred to something which he had said on Monday evening in re ference to the French Provisional Government, and said that he:had meant no disrespect whatever to M. De Lamartine in his remarks on the answer which he had given to the Irish deputation. Lord ORANVILLE said he must protest against the opinion that the politics of the Pope had been in fl uenced, at home or abroad, by any base love of popularity. (Hear.) Lord STANLEY said that while he gave his cordial and hearty support to this bat, he must say the government had not been over hasty in introducing the measure, nor did he think it was likely to be so efficient as they desired. It being admitted that the provisions of the registration act were net and could not be strictly complied with, it was evident that this bill could nutoperate efficiently. To this no answer had been given by the noble lords opposite, who bad merely alluded to vexatious Interference with private life. Why, the bill itself was am interference —he bad almost said an unconsti tutional interference—with the ordinary law, with private ar rangements and comforts, and with the ordinary laws of hospi tality; but, as such, it was justified by the circumstances of the time', by the necessity of providing for the safety of the em pire, and by the fact that there were, perhaps, 60,000 foreigners in this country, though the number was not ma terial—theiointhience and disposition was everything. These were the grounds on which the noble lord opposite had de fended an interference, which was confessedly inefficient. Either they ought to have interfered effectually, or to have been restrained from doing so by the considerations he had cited. This bill and another in the other house had been introduced with the view of passing them before Easter; so that the time was too short to discuss either of them fully. This measure in pariicular demanded the most careful considera tion, and investigation of the existing law. It went to re cognise foreigeers by name, while the government confessed that they had no means of knowing those names. This was avowedly a temporary measure; but the one in the other house was not au ; it was a measure for a great and perma nent alteration in the law of sedition and treason. With m ama to this latter measure, their lordships had a right to complain that unless they would contest to pass the bill hastily, they might he told they were responsible for the consequences. Looking to what had passed here and in the sister island, the government was highly cen surable for not having brought forward these important measures until within a week of Easter. They might have been certain of the support of large majorities in both houses; they might even have relied on the cordial aid of their political opponents to neutralise any opposition from their political friends ; still they had delayed these measures most unwisely. (Hear.) He was fully disposed to support these measures, but he must complain of the delay. He must complain of another matter. If the government of Ireland, with the open declaration of the intentions, hopes, and desires of a body (not a numerous one, certainly) in that country—with the recommendation to the rondo to arm themselves in resistance to the government, was content to sit by and see all this go on unchecked, and even to allow the manufacture of weaposa 'oefore their eyes, which could be used for no legitimate purpose, he must condemn such a course. (Hear, hear-) For the first time, not only since the union, but for a much longer period, all restriction, on the carrying of arms in Ireland had been removed by the present government; and hence the difficulty in which they were placed with regard to the measures necessary in that country. lie regretted that no new powers were asked for by government, and that even no efficient attpi were taken for carrying out the provisions of the bill passed before Christmas. The number of arms hitherto given up was extremely small compared with the number that had been manufactured. It there was to be an outbreak there, it was inconceivable folly not to take steps for securing a well-armed population in support of government and order, and to disarm the disaffected, especially with the lull warn ing that bad beet. given. To the bill before the house he uttered no oppoti.ion ; but be thought it his duty to call their lordships' attention to a state of things so fraught with evil, with the view to prevent the general arming that was going on in Leland. (Hear.) Lord DENMAN said the bill before the house had his cordial support. Still be must express his regret that powers so extensive and alarming were found necessary. the Se cretary of S:ate would be bound to act on any information conveyed to him, from whatever quarter, and however founded. The repeal of the Alien Bill in 182(1 had been hailed with shouts of applause; arid it was most painful to be compelled to entrust such dangerous powers to any go vernment. Be regretted that the noble lord oppo site (Smutty) had nought to divide opinion on the conduct of the government at a time of such imminent peril. (Hear, hear.) Ho thought the government well entitled to their lordships' thanks for the prompt steps they had recently taken, especially in the last few days. (lieu, hear.) Their conduct with regard to Ireland led him to the gratifying conclusion that they did not deem any further powers necessary for the preservation of the peace la that country. With regard to the bill now before the other house, he hoped its provisions would be well considered, and that their lordships would be able to give it their undivided support. It was most important, in times of order and quiet, to prepare for any disturbances that might arise. As to the meeting on Kennington-common, he con sidered that the government were perfectly justified in the measures which they took to put it down. Such assem• blagee were highly dangerous, to none more than to those de luded persons who were led to suppose that their liberties were invaded by the steps that were taken to preserve order. (Hear, hear.) The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said there appeared to have been a mistake as to the object of this bill. It did not at all relate to the system of passports ; but it effected that which it proposed—namely, to give government the power of excluding from the country individuals whose conduct might render their presence here dangerous. ((tear, hear.) The noble lord opposite (Stanley) thought the bill did not go far enough; but it was most important, on such a subject es this, that the government should strive to carry with them the opinion of all claws ; and this would not have been the case had a mere rigorous measure been proposed. He would make the same remark with respect to the measures adopted in Ireland; and he thought the noble lord (Stanley) had gone nut of his way for the purpose of prematurely condemn ing the course of government. The events of the last few days had, he hoped, shown that the attention of government was fully called to the state of affairs. (Hear, hear.) On Monday next he should he prepared to state what course the government meant to adopt with regard to Ireland. He could not make that statement now ; for he was not so much in advance on these questions as the noble lure opposite (Stanley). Excep ioual laws of this kind were necessarily founded on the cireamatances of the moment, and cou.d not be justified or condemned by precedents. A much more seveie 1. w might be required at one time than at another ; if ever one moment was strongly distinguished from others by the peculiarity of its circumstances it was the present ; and it was the part of a statesman not to look to the former opinions of himself UT others, but to judge from existing circumstances what measures were necessary. (Hear.) The Earl of MALMESISURY said that he and his poll. ticsd friends had supported this bill from the fairest and most patriotic motives, and it was unfair to impute to them any other. While willing to share the responsibility and odium of the government, they had a right to see that the measure was effective. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said a few words in reply, which were inaudible in the gallery. The Duke of RICHMOND wished the bill had been more efficient; but he hoped it would answer the purpose desired. lie supported the bill because he believed that prevention wasbetter than cure. He could wish it were a more efficient measure, but he would not, on that acc-unt, offer any oppo sition to it. On the contrary, looking to what took place in other countries, be was not prepared factiously to oppose the government, but to give them his feeble but hearty support to enable them to carry on the affairs of the country. Lord REDESDALE ca.led the attention of the noble marquis to the loose way in which the provisions in the bill respecting the service of warrants were drawn up. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said, that when the bill was committed would bs. the proper time for discussing the objection. The bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday, and the standing orders suspended; upon which their loruships adjourned, at 20 minutes before 8 o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—Tausepay, APRIL 13. The Srzaiiiia took the chair at 4 o'clock. --•- _ PRIVATE BPSLNESS. REPORT CONSIDERED.— Morse Mer New Gas Light Company (additional capital and amendment) Bill. THIRD READLNGS.--Oswestry Markets and Fairs ; Shrewsbury Market ; Satlaranoe Wharfs (Southwark); Bills. PUBLIC BUBINBILS. PETITIONS. — By Mr. WILLCOX. from attorneys of Southampton, against the certificate duty.—Capt. JONIFE, from Londonderry, playing the house to par a bill to compel landlords to grant sites for free churches in Scotland.—Sir G. STRICKLAND, from Pre6te4 aga i ns t car. fain parts of the health of Towns BilL—Mr. J. O'Cossiam., •everal petons, from various parts of Ireland, in femur of the repeal of the union and tenant-iight.—Mr. DCNCAN, from Dundee, against the Diplomatic Relations with Rome Bill . LiscoLN, from Falkirk, ' praying for a till to compel laudkola to grant aims for tree churches in Scotland—Yr. B. thicwrruati, from Rochdale, praying fare yard= for YHVH, Williams, and Jonse.—Lord Monetwa, several pea. , time, In favour of the Polak Health P. wPAT oo., from Oxiird, in favour of th e PlOcith Charter.—Mr. 110071, from @Warns of Leaden in favour of an extension of the elective franehoe to every man poetising or renting a dwelling who Is unataimed ty crime, and does not receive paroshial relieL Mr. 0. A. Hawatroe, ten petitions against the system of national edu cation in Ireland.—Nir. 0. Tiwonreon four petitions from the Tower Honshu seeing the Crown and Ocrve . nsnaink Smutty Coo- son, from Barnsley to the MOH effect; also, lath:ions against the Gams Laws and the sale of aviation Bundaya.—Lord CAHrLARILAI.II, from Downpstriekt praying th e house for the renewal of the Part y PTOOMMiOOO SI LL — Loral RAIVIAID, from 'victim plum in Cork against the system of national Mutation. —DO. BOWillllo, from Baton against the Crown and Government M ood : y Bill, end praying foe the dis robing of minister. SOH An HltAllgol2 of the Mitrege.—Mr. &MUT. kelp TiHrTAI7, in favour of the repeal of the union- —Mr.llthas, frooi Kilmarnock against the Crown and Government Security dill.— Lord kAILIVIOTOM, three petitions from London in favour of the Public Health Bill. FIRST READING.—Horsham Borough Bill. NOTICE OF MOTION.-13LaIWIU-IlOtirellf.—MT. WILSON to morrow (this day), to lath the Secretary rd State for Foreign Affairs, whether any ounimunintion bad been received from the i.anish go vernment on the suboct of the entrance of Prussian troops into I lol stein, with the object of soliciting the interference of tide goveminent by mediation or otherwise, and whether any Intimation had been re ceived by this government of the expected biockade of the Elbe, should the Germanic Ownfetleration continue their interference in the affairs of Holstein ; and whether any and what steps bad born taken by this government to secure en amicable set lenient of the existing die atebetween Holstein and gest.* and the government of Cnpen itOokti CATHOLIC Rower BILL.—Mr. Aimee, In committee on this kilt, to move that Homan cathodal be eligible to the unite of Lord Chancellor. ROYAL COMMISSION. Sir A. CLIFFORD appeared at the table, and summoned the house to the House of Lords to hear the royal anent given, by communion, to several bills,—for which see Lords' report. MANUFACTURE OF PIHRS IN DUBLIN. In answer to Mr. J. O'CoNnEht, Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that he was in a condition to contradict the statement that Colonel Brown had employed any individual to make pikes. He had received a letter from Cul. Brown, in which he most positively denied that he had ever given directions to Kirwan or any other person to entice or induce any blacksmiths or other artificers to manufacture pikes. But Col. Brown had employed Kirwan and other peewee to go to blacksmiths' shops arid buy pikes that were ready-made. He must say, that he thought the po sitive contradiction of Colonel Brown, a gentleman of high honour, was deserving of credence rather than a report in a newspaper which had been taken in a police-office, which must bo nremeasily liable to mistake. (Loud cries of " hear, hear.") Mr. J. O'CONNELL wished to ask whether the govern. ment would institute any inquiry with a view of protecting the public from having such persons employed, in order to draw innocent individuals into crime. Sir W. SOMEItV ILLE said he did not know from what the public was to be protected. if the hon. gentleman wanted to know the opinion of the government on the subject, he • would read to him a passage of the ai.swer of his Excellency to Dr. Gray, in which he said ho could not too strongly ex press his abhorrer ce of the conduct of any man who should seek to entrap others into the commission of crime, with a view of delivering them nto the hands of justice. That was the opinion of the Lord Lieutenant, and he would act up to I it. (Hear, hear.) THE CHARTIST PETITION. Mr. THORN ELY hr .ught up the report of the committee on public petitions with respect to the chartist petition, which was read by the clerk at the table. It stated that : The ODMMittee on public petitions, in conformity with the inntroe tiers of the house of the 16th day of November last, in all canes to set forth the number of signatures to each petition," and also having reguid to the power at the same time delegated to them "to report their opinion and bb-ea vatious thereupon to the hours," have agreed to the following special report That, on the loth day of April instant, a petition for "universal suffrage, At., from inhanitants of the British isles and subjects of the British crown," was prevented to the house. Your committee strongly feel the value of the right of petition; considering the exercise of it so one of the moot Important privileges of the subjects of the realm, and feel the necessity of preserving the exercise of such pi ivilegc fr..m abuse. And having also a due regard to the importance of the very numer ously signed petition, lorming the subject of the present report, they feed bound to represent to the house, that in the matter of signatures there has been, in their opinion, a prom abuse of that privilege. The honourable member for Nottingham stated, on presenting the petition i:. question to the house, that 5,706.000 signatures were attached to it. Upon a most careful examination of the number of signatures in the committee room, is which examination thirteen his statemene clerks were engaged for upwards of seventeen hours, with the person ordinarily employed in counting the signatures appended to petite,as under the superintendence of the clerk of your committee, the number of signatures hue been ascertained to he 1,975,49 G. It is further evident to your committee, that on numerous consecutive sheets the Ingo at uresare in one and the same handwriting. Your committee have also observed the naniee of thstinguished in dividuals attached to the petition who cannot be supposed to have concurred in its prayer, and ow little to have subscribed it; amongst such of cur the names id her Majesty in one plane, us Victoria lire, April I ; the Duke of Wellington, E.G.; Sir Robert Peel, hr. In addition to this species of übane, your com:aittee have observed another equally in derogn ion of the just value • f petition., namely, the insertion of name, which are obviously altogether fictitious, such as Chew," "Pug Now," " butnose" Then. are other words and phrases which, tlinugh written tn form of signatures, awl included in the number reported, your coi n. mitt. o f not harard offending the house, arid the digit nity ant decency o their own prieenlingo, by reporting ; though, t o he added, that they are obviously signatures belonging tone human being. I Considerable laughter, and cries of " Hear, hear," accom panied the conclusions of several of the paragraphs and sen tences of the report.) Mr. F. O'CONNOR said he had already been informed by a member of the government, at 12 o'clock that day, that this petition had been examined, and that only 1,:00,000 signatures were attached to it instead of the number he had stated. (Hear, hear.) He hail never said—it would have been impossible for him to say—that the practices alleged had not been maned to, for he knew nothing of or about them. He would remark, however, that there was an old saying, " He who hides can find ;" and he should not be at al: surprised to bear that the names and words said to have been improperly introduced had been inscribed by persons who intended that they should be made ate of in this way. (Oh, oh.) lie should certainly move for a committee to investigate the matter, for he had every reason to believe that the number of petitioners did not, at all events, fall much short of what he had represented. From Manchester and Birmingham alone, be was credibly inform ed there had emanated a quarter of a million signa tures. Ile denied altogether that 17 clerks, or double the number, could have counted even 1,000,000 signatures in the time stated. If the house still doubted that the petition had received the signatures of five million persons he would undertake. in a very short time, to produce them a petition signed t y double or treble the number. (Oh, oh.) Mr. eIIORNELY, as chairman of the petitions com mittee, begged to say a few words. The petition in question had been received by the committee with all the respect ob viously due to a popular petition numerously signed. (Hear, hear.) And, speaking for himself, he might add, there were points of the petition, such as the prayer for the ballot, in which he entirely concurred. ((lean, hear.) The home was aware that it was a duty of the committee to reportto the house the number of signatures to each petition refereed to it. With respect to the present petition, it had been deemed ne cessary to call in additional aid for this purpose, and he bad no hesitation in expressing his conviction that the labours of the clerks so employed had resulted in an accurate statement of the real number of signatures appended to that petition. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Nottingham had on a former night alluded to the weight of the petition : he (Mr. Thornely) begged to inform the house that the petition had that morning been weighed, and that its weight had been ascertained to be 5 cwt. and three-quarters. (Hear, hear.) ' He believed he need say not a word in vindication of the character of the committee over which he had the honour to preside—(loud cheers)—and which, he felt assured, had only done its duty in presenting this special report. (Renewed cheering.) Lord J. RUSSELL gave entire credit to the report of the committee, and thought it well entitled to the thanks of the house for the course it had pursued. (Hear, hear.) He might remark that in investigating, as it had done, the genuineness of these signatures, it could not, of course, take into consideration, as the house might, the number of idle persons and heeoless passers by, who, seeing the petition at the corner of a street, put their names down, without ever knowing what the petition was for. (Hear, bear.) The hon. member for Nottingham had suggested that the spurious and otherwise irregular signatures might be the work of government spies. 'fhe hon member was so very full of this idea of a spy system, that he wondered it had never occurred to the hon. member to view the members of the convention themselves as part of a government spy system; seeing the good service they had done to the cause of order, by the enormous contrast between their very fierce denunciations at the convention, and their extremely peace able deportment when they came forth to make their so loudly trumpetted demonstretion. (Hear, hear.) The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY would take the opportunity of coutroverting another monstrous misrepresen tation on the part of the followers of the hon. gentleman opposite. The day after the meeting on Kennington common, a proclamation was agreed to at the convention, setting forth that there had been present at the " glorious manifestation" in question, a quarter of a million of persons. Now, he was prepared distinctly to assert, that the entire assemblage on Kennington-common, on Monday last, spec tators included, did not at any period exceed, at the very out side, 25,000. (Hear, hear). The real number, he believed, to have been no more than 15,000 (hear, hear); but putting it at 25,000, he would ask whether the country was to be misled by the leaders of the convention, who, in these gross misrepresentations, showed themselves false to their fellow subjects, as they were traitors to their Queen, and rebels to their God 2 (Hear, hear.) Mr. J. O'CONNELL begged to correct another misrepre sentation that had been pat forth on the subject. He had been waited on by a numerous deputation of fellow-country men of his, prominently promoters of the repeal agitation in this city, who had assured him that it was an utter false hood to state, as had been stated, that the Irish repeaters generally, or as a body, had taken any part whatever in this demonstration. (Hear, hear.) There were, indeed, as he was informed, perhaps .1,000 Irish, men, women, and chit &en, present on the occasion ; but he altogether repudiated the allegation that the Irish repeaters in London lent their unction, as a body, to any violent manifestation, Cr any dis turbance of the peace and good order of this country. (Cheers.) Sir R. INGLIS said that really after this exposure the netition was not worth the paper on which it was written. There was a great cry against an alleged attack upon the right to petition ; but the persona who were instru mental in procuring such signatures as those now denounced were the real enemies to the right to petition. He urged upon government the pro pnety of requiring, as heretofore, that all petitioners should add their profession or trade, and their place of abode. (Hear, hear.) The boo. baronet took occasion to express his feeling that while parliament and the government should not omit to give public thanks to the hundreds of thousands of our cou ntrymen who had so energetically stood forward in support of peace and order, they should not omit to offer up their silent thanks to that power who had so signally preserved us in our recent danger, and without whose aid the arm of Beak was as nought, remembering that unless the Lord keep the city, the watchman %ninth but in vain. (Hear, hear.) Mr. CRIPPS—Atter what the hon. member for Not tingham had said impugning the conduct of the com mittee, he must say a few words. He begged to affirm, without fear of legitimate contradiction, that the com mittee lad taken every pains that there should be no Walks as the subject- (Hoar, hear.) His own at tentions bed been directed to the matter from the very moment when the hon. member made the audacious b sta fivte ment—Otter, hear)—that the petition wu signed y e million' and a half of persons. Immediately agar the bowie had received the petition, be went into the library, and spent two hours and a half over that interesting document, the Population Abstract of 1841, making calculations in and a con nexion with the alleged number of five millions half petitioners, not aware at the time that the petition had been signed by women. On investigating the matter, how ever, he bad ascertained that , of ever y 100,000 signatures, 8,200 were those of women. (Hear. hear.) The hors. member , had said that the petition weighed 5 tons, whereas in pcint of ! fact, it only weighed 6 cwt. (Hear, hear.) A petition, weighing 6 tons, would scarcely have come, as this did, in three crazy phis. He did not wish to throw ridicule on the petition, but he did wish to throw ridicule and obloquy on the hon. gentleman. (Cheer.) Mr. F. O'CONNOR rose to order. He had stated in the outset—(Order, order.) The SPEAKER said the hon. member must postpone any explanation until after the hon. gentleman in posstasion of the house had sat down. Mr. CRIPPS would repeat the observation that he sought to throw ridicule and obloquy on the hon. gentleman — (hear, hear) —and would say that if any hon. member of that bouts laid himself open to a charge which should deprive him of a title to credence, that nen. member ought to be denounced to the house—(hear, hear)—and he (Mr. Cripps), for one, would say that he should never believe the ho. member again —(hear, hear)—and he hoped the poor creatures whom he had so shamefully deluded would new see, in its proper light, the character of the man they had to deal with. (Hear, hear.) Were these things to be tolerated while parties—he would not say immediately connected with the hon. gentleman—(ers)—but who availed themselves of the opportunities be placed in their way—had utterly ruined, by their robberies, ten honest tradesmen at and near Camberwell? (Loud cheers.) This petition teemed with obscenity, ribaldry, and blasphemy, and there were words affixed to it that the lowest strumpet in the streets would be ashamed of. (Hear.) Upon one of the sheets were written the words " we could not get paid for any more to-clay." (Hear, bear.) Had he been aware of the nature of the signatures attached to it, he would have objected to the petition being received at the time it was presented. What was it to get 5,000,000 names to a peti tion ? They could get any number, definite or indefinite, if they chose to adopt such a course. lie hoped the house would not cast such a censure upon the Committee of Petitions as to appoint another committee to inquire into the subject. (Hear, hear.) Mr. F. O'CONNOR said an explanation was required on three points; on two points relating to the petition, he should explain in that house ; on a third point, relating to himself, he should have explanation elsewhere. In the first place, he attributed no censure to the cemmittee ; al he had said was, that twice 17 clerks cos Id not count 1, l 900,000 names in the time stated. In the second place, he did not consider himself rponsible for what might have been written in the way of signatures to the petition. (Oh, oh.) lie could not say what any of the sheets contained, for he had not seen them till he brought them into the house. (Oh, oh.) Ile considered that with this explanation of his views he hod relieved himself, as far as the house was concerned, from the imputation that he was not entitled to credence. (Oh, oh.) The lion member then left the house. Mr. A. SMITH said he was present at Keneingtoncommon on Monday, from first to last, and he could state most posi tively that never was there at any time on the common more than 11,000 persons. The whole area of the common could not po sib)) , contain more than 90,000 persons; and at no period of the meeting was more than one-fourth of that epee occupied. (Hear, hear.) The pi rsons composing the pro cession did not number more than 8,000. (Hsu, hear.) Col. SIIITHORP, amid much laughter, vehemently denied that he had appended his name to the petition. The signature there purporting to be his was an impudent and rascally ,forgery. No one who knew him would suppose that he would ever disgrace his family or himself by mix ing up with any such damned humbug. (Great laughter.) Mr. HUME extremely regretted the highly personal cha racter of the discussion (Hear, hear.) lie thought that the hon. member for Cirencester had taken a very improper course in the remarks he had made upon the subj. et of the petition, however gross ax imposition it might be, as indeed it seemed to be. (Hear, hear.) Ile thought that the dig nity of the house would have been much better preserved if notice had been given of bringing the subject regularly before the house. It was the rule of the house that every member should be responsible for the petitions he might present. He always considered himself so, and never presented a petition without full examination. (Hear, hear.) And he certainly considered, therefore, that the hon. member for Nottingham was not justified in shielding himself from responsibility by alleging his igno fence of the circumstances of the petition he had presented ; but still the bon. member for Cirencester was decidedly con travening the dignity of the house in stating that one of its members—whatever the fact might lie—was unworthy of credence. (Hear, hear.' Mr. It. YORKE differed from the hon. member for Montrose. He thought the cause of truth was under great obligation to the member for Cirencester. (Hear, hear.) It was true he had used strong language, but he thought he was justified in doing so. (Hear, hear.) He had noel° statements with respect to the hon. member for Nottingham which the hon. member had of course denied. Lord CASTLEREAGH rose to order. He thought that such assertions ought not to be made with respect to hon. members when they were not present. Mr. It. YORKE said that the hon. member for Notting ham's absence was his own affair. The assertion of truth was the first great duty of that house. (Hear.) Mr. B. COCHRANE wished to know from the noble lord at the head of the government whether he tho .ght, after the exposure that had been made that evening, it would be just to waste the whole of the evening to-morrow in discussing this petition (Hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL observed, that having stated sonic days ago that it would he impossible to give Monday to the comideration of the chartist petition, end having proposed that its consideration should be proceeded with on Friday, he certainly did not consider himself at lib.rty to depart from that arrangement. (Hear.) Mr. C. LUSHINGTON observed that the hon. member for Nottingham had said he had three points to explain, two of which he had explained there, and the other he said he would explain in another place. (Hear, hear.) The boo. member for Nottingham had since left the house, a fact to which, considering the personal tone which the dimussion lad taken between the hon. gentleman and another hon. member still in his place, lie (Mr. Lustiington) thought that the attention of the Speaker should be directed ; so that, if it were deemed necessary, the authority of the chair should prevent any hostile proceedings between the parties out of doors. (Oh, oh.); Mr. DISRAELI said it would be exceedingly ridiculous if, as the result of a conversation about the very innocent meeting at Kennington-common, a more serious meeting should take place elsewhere. If such a result were apprehended, he thought it most desirable that the Speaker should interfere. (Hear, hear.) If one member made a statement in the house which ano ther member knew or believed to be • misrepresenta tion, and of mischievous tendency, it was clearly open to the latter to bring the matter under the consideration of the house calmly and deliberately. He thought, therefore, that the hon. member for Cirencester had done welt to *- press his view of this subject upon the house, but he must at the same time express his feeling that the hon. gentleman's zeal had given somewhat too strong a tone to his expree 'ions. (Hear, hear.) It might, therefore, be welt ter the Speaker to interpose his authority. Sir G. GREY said that he had not himself heard the par ticular personality to which references were made, and he conceived, therefore, that the expression, declaratory of one hon. member's disbelief of the word of another hon. member, bad also escaped the ear of the right hon. gentleman in the chair, or the right hon. gentleman would probably have in terfered at the time. It would, clearly, be quite ridiculous for an expression, escaping an hon. member in the earnest ness of his public zeal, to involve two members of that house in conflict elsewhere. (Hear, near.) Mr. It. PALMER had heard the hon. member for Not tingham say, that besides the two points he explained to the house, there was a third affecting himself personally on which he should have explanation elsewhere ; and from the tone in which the hon. member spoke, and from the manner in which he bad left the house immediately afterwards, he (Mr. Palmer) certainly considered that there was occasion for the interference of the chair. Lori J. RUSSELL—The hon. member had stated that he did not mean to be offensive in the sense in which his ex pressions had been taken, and of course it was impossible to doubt his assertion. He therefore begged to move that the hon. member for Nottingham be ordered to attend in his place forthwith. The SPEAKER said that if what fell front the hon. mem ber for Nottingham produced the same effect on the hon. member for Cirencester as on the house it could not have been considered to carry any personal reflection with it. (Laughter.) He hoped the hon. member would bear in mind that the house always placed the greatest possible reliance on what fell front any hon. member in his place in that house, and, consequently, that the greatest possible caution was necessary in ascertaining the accuracy of what statements were made there. The honourable member for Not. was certainly responsible that the petition di treontain anything that was disrespectful to the house, and that the signatures were those of proper persons. The hon. member might have been imposed on with respect to some of the names, but not, it he had taken proper care, to the eztent that was apparent. The hon. member for Ciren cester had certainly denied the statement of the hon. member for Nottingham with some warmth, but he had not heard the hon. member go beyond the usual limits of parliamentary language. The hon. member, indeed, had assured the house that such was net his intention, and therefore the noble lord was quite right in making the motion which he had dose. CRIPPS said that be could not deny having used the expressions adverted to with great warmth ; and with equal sincerity he might add, he did not intend to offer any insult to the hon. member for Nottingham, but merely toassert that he did not place any confidence in his statement. He had no wish to evade the responsibility which one gentleman in curred towards another by his expressions, but he must observe that more than one hon. member had been heard by him to say the same thing respecting the petition. Lord CASTLEREAGH urged the hon. member for Cirencester to say something more satisfactory to the house, and offer a more sufficient explanation than he had done of his language. The house ought to be careful not to imitate the example of foreign legislatures in the use of violent or uncourteous language. abolished. ileinthry?..,a, hitt thePn"il4lo. a or sob,yi •••••••••11.... e.---__ Sir D. L. EVA.NS offered • few words in unison with aI . . nt i ,b e t a: , i cnhset:M7ersrep,r7:::::lit church . h the i t _t, he re . (Rear, es aw hear.) d th uty of e the . hon. member o l e o s% a be e r p"i to r Cirencester mile% certainly a h m a i d ne hee th a e th pe e . go h lhtwoh e rlie v w .h e de e e r: r e d: e . m s r ghrio : che e elli it he: f eit nteut tte.Etoby H plz e t :r iA:::l e s , epe l h Emint e enthio e f g t a ko r inyisE m . F ) ..h i lw e grtior T s ie lere.ilß h te fh: e n E hrto y don ' iyhri sh e i ocyth o ciT e m,o ul o ri tx....s ! Y ciNtoo.s u it E ht o e t, eted athoul t ß_:leid b ebst hw: r 7oo.6eiie r :its. : :: h in o te n lu e p in ted b. t r h f e or d N eb ort ing e t.. . ca l ling „. : v ga id al t t h i e tella ci l ee th. r enofth house t u g to rth e.tet o o i .r. h n u. ipd , fa dte:._dn and h:tam jet..:dynr. .:: hh t i t or e among e . (il, that i hfdr:wh eorthee ine.lexpress . not .. an personal. i gh w a siset to member erl r e d ... ug e d i hr.: language N ...c t t oet i ene feel ill.il there . ap i i indigo teue i ohe o t sb n : ieu thei, o h i lisu sii.du i s feelings,n member o gots.y • ut must pem Mr. CRIPPS said he had w cant to tell the hon. member sAirl'AT :S tac y re o u pt-IS se ieed ; petition. plate i ueNo any o n t . d n igfh in reliancea m .., y a i and be sob: hei scould statementsba d enotretract,xpr.aed with himself respect ine did wrong m. cF ge t eis TccT Captain poe Is: sn ,: a oRo ? the on Mr . F n eargus uoss O li 'C i tinn — le twenty celled aimless before same telr T m . s e t • he the s pE hon . d eeply A ii m m i e e t ~._e m g seven o'clock. r . d i t en e Nottingham . e a d n h d e r w ig m e h h t i ready mts e l , .1 e h t a s n ee . i n y . . 1. were not in accordance with the forme of this Louse . ( Rear .) The The SPEAKER—DidSPEAKER—Wh e h r e e e d . i p el the yo , u h s: e h teh im t : The house. therefore, is satisfied with the assurance of the Capt. GOSSET—I saw him at the Northern 5 t ,,,, bar deeply regrets h reir is ftrtel h f a uod ving used any expressions that Don. member. (Hear, hear.) office. The motion was then agreed to that Mr. F. O'Connor be ordered to attend in his place forthwith. the order ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER suggested Capt. GOSSET—No. He asked me what the eon s , that the hon. member for Cirencester ought to be restrained quinces would be it he did not attend. I told re m t h at from leaving the house for the present. (A. laugh.) would depend en the pleasure of the lieut. THE WARWICK MURDER. The SPEAKER—You may withdraw. Mr. EWART asked the right bon. baronet a question re- Sir G. GREY said it became his duty, in consequence of 'alive to Davis, who was convicted of the Warwick murder, the refusal of the hon. member for Nottingham, to more, — in and who lies under sentence of death. accordance with the invariable practice of the house, bra Sir G. GREY said it was true Davis had been convicted (or Nottingham, having been required by an order served a member of the house had an order served on him whi a ch a 'upon him to attend in his place, aed not ha v ing attended, of murder and bad teen sentenced to be banged. It was did not comply with, that Feargus O'Connor, Em , memb er a tty lw th t e m e e vi t d h e a n t ce a omfetweloorimeeldteicettliemgefne,rthhadhlitie i e n n u re n ce it i y . , ed sup . po y , hi rt m ed . He bad in consequence taken the course that was always fol- be taken into the custody of the sergeantatent s attending lowed in such cases, and had received for answer that this house. two medical men's evidence had been heard at the trial but Mr. HUME asked whether the hon. member might act failed to make the jury believe that the man was insane, and be allowed time till to morrow. (No, no.) He knew that they came to the conclusion that he was guilty, andthe judge it had been granted in some cure. who tried the case was of the same opinion. Sir G. GREY said that might be done if it was the ho w JEWISH DISABILITIES. tension of the party to obey the order of the house. In the Lord J. RUSSELL, in answer to a question from Sir R. present case the hon. member had left it to be inferred that Teems, stated that the Jewish Disabilities 13e1 would not be he would not comply with the order. When taken into brought on before Easter ; but he would, on the motion fo r custody he might appear in the house, and it would not in. adjournment for the holidays, state the course he meant to terfere with his parliamentary duties. take in the matter. The motion was then agreed to. Lord LINCOLN asked the noble lord when, and for how The debate was then resumed by long, the adjournment would take place ? Sir R. INGLIS, who said that this was not a question of Lord J. RUSSELL said that in the actual state of the ministers' money, but a question relatiug to that church of Crown and Government Security 13.11 he could not give any which he was a member. lie believed that ministers' precise reply to the question, but would do so at the earliest was to be considered in the same light as church rates. The possible opportunity was not a tax on persons, but on localities, and therefore it CROWN AND GOVERNMENT SECURITY. was not to he considered as a tax on protestants or Roma' Lord J. RUSSELL moved that the house do meet at catholics. With regard to the statement that there would twelve o'clock tomorrow (this day) to proceed with this net be the present destitution in Ireland but for the existents bill in committee. of the established church, he beggedto say that no persomeon- MIN ISTEBS' MONEY (IRELAND). tributed so largely to relieve that destitution an the menthols Mr. FAGAN in bringing forward his motion on this sub- of the protestant church. This was not a question of 12,0001, ject said it had already been brought under the notice of a year, but a question of principle, and it was in that light former parliaments in the years 1842-3-4 and .5 by his hon. it should be viewed by the house. (Hear, hear.) The friend 'Mr. Serjeant Murphy. There were eight cities in question was whether the established church was to be re- Irelan•l subject to the:payment of miaistets' money, red as mined, and he maintained that it was not competent foe the greater proportion of those who paid that tax were them to decide upon that question, aa it was a part of the Roman catholics, it was felt to be a very grievous compact entered into at the time of the union that it should imposition, and also humiliating and vexatious. be upheld. (Heat.) But as the exercise of the municipal franchise was Sir G. GREY said that there was a practical grievance in by the existing law made to rest upon the payment of the present case, for which a remedy ought to be found. ministers' money, the Roman catholic in the eight towns (Hear, hear.) Both the receivers and the payers of minis where it was exacted were obliged to pass under the yoke, ter' money were anxious that some remedy tinted be pro else to forfeit their municipal rights. There was a substitute vided. The government of the right hon. baronet (Sir to be found for it in the Irish Church Temporalities Act, R. Peel) agreed, in 1811, to a motion similar to the present which had relieved Ireland from the payment of church one ; but no remedy had been prepared, and the present to. rest to the amount of 50,0001., whilst the whole amount vernment were likewise nut prepared with one. Both the of ministers' money collected did not exceed 14,0001. Having hon. gentleman, the member for the University of Dublin read the opinion of Lord Stanley, strongly condemnatory of (Mr. Hamilton), and the hon. member for the city of Cork, the tax the hon. member preposed an a substitute the appli ' asked for an inqeiry. Ile saw no substantial objection to en cation o f the surplus of the fund in the hands of the acted- inquiry for ascertaining if a remedy could be found. The astical commissioners for Ireland, which he contended hon. member for the University . of Dublin ob would amply answer all the purposes fulfilled by this jetted to any terms which would imply a foregone most obnoxious tax. He would propose also that the 40,0001. conclusion that the substitute far ministers' money now due to the government by the commissioners should be should conic from the funds of the thelesiastiod remitted to them, as an assistance in carrying out the object commissioners of Ireland. He would propose the addition of he had in view. He trusted that his proposal would receive general terms, which he hoped would be satisfactory to the attention of the house. He admitted that it had refer- the hon. gentleman. The wards which he proposed once to only a small item; but he believed that its removal were " and to inquire whether any other, and what lunch would do great good in appeasing the feelings of the people might be rendered available for the purposes to which minis. of Ireland, and convincing them that their affairs were not tend money was now applied." lie hoped the house would considered wholly unworthy the attention at the imperial agree to the motion belore it, with the addition of thous parliament. The hon. member concluded by moving " That wer e.. this house will, on Tuesday next , re solve itself into a Mr. HAMILTON had no objection to the proposed adds com mittee, to take into consideration the act 17 and 18 Charles tion. 11., c. 7, inteuled 'An act for provision of ministers in Mr. REYNOLDS was of opinion that thie question should cities and corporate towns, and making the church of St. be considered as one of pounds, shillings, and pence without Andrew's, in the suburbs of the city of Dublin, preservative mixing up with it the disagreeable and obnoxious one of for ever,' with the view to the repeal of so much thereof as either protestant or catholic ascendancy. lie ob.erted to relates to the provision of ministers in cities and cerporate ministers' money, on the grounds that Roman catholics and towns, and to provide from the ecclesiastical revenues of Ire- presbyterians were compelled to pay for the support of a land a substitute in lieu thereof." church from which they dissented. This was a source of Sir W. SOMERVILLE Raid that the subject which his 1 great discontent in Ireland, acid brought the established hon. friend had brought under the attention of the house church in that country into great discredit. lie thought Was one which no doubt excited considerable attention in that a substitute for ministers' money could be derived from Ireland. It bad been several times brought under the con- the surplus funds in the hands of the Irish ecclesiastical sideration of parliament, and several successive secretaries commissioners. He denounced the tax as one of gross in for Ireland had Fought to find a substitute for the tax, but, equality, and one which his catholic and protestant conste up to the present time, without success. The protestant tuents were equally desirous of wishing abolished. clergy themselves were most anxious to find means of abolish- Mr. MONSON hoped . the hon. member for the city of ing ministers' money, and seemed bad submitted schemes Cork would persevere with his motion. The abuse against for the purpose. He (Sir W. Somerville) had given the which that motion was directed was one of the most flagrant subject his most serious attention, and had come to the con- and mischievous nature. The tax was a tax upon improve. elusion that, to simply abolish the tax would be, not to meat, and would not be tolerated in England. serve the poor. but to put money into the pockets of the Mr. NAPIER said tho real question was whether a por rich owners of house property in the various towns of Ireland. tion of the church property is Ireland was to be altogether Earl St. Germans had moved for certain returns, which were abolished. The motion was a direct attack upon the church in preparation, and which, when ready, would, he expected, be establishment in Ireland. an efficient guide on this moat intricate subject. lie was MR. F. O'CONNOR. inclined to support the proposal of his hon. friend the mem- The Sergeant-at-Arms here appeared at the bar of the her for the University of Dublin for a select committee, as he h ouse , an d informed the house that Mr. F. O'Connor thought that, on a subject of such intricacy, it would be a awaited the pleasure of the house in custody. means of eliciting much useful information. If a committee Sir 0. GREY moved that Mr. F. O'Connor be discharged were appointed, he should attend it with a sincere desire to out of the custody of the Sergeeneat-Arnie, in order that he bring the matter to a successful issue. (Hear, hear.) might attend in his place in the house.—Ordered. Mr. G. A. HAMILTON said that the right hon. baronet Mr. F. O'Corrteou having assumed his place, having assented to the appointment of a select committee Tile SPEAKER addressed him in the following terms: rendered it unnecessary that he should trouble the house at " Mr. Feargus O'Connor, the house having been g iven to any length. There could be no doubt that it was a subject I understand that expressions fell from you, previous to your loudly calling for legislative interference. Even the protest- leaving the house, which least the house to conclude an inten ant clergy themselves were most anxious that an equitable tion on your part to take hostile proceedings against another mode of abolishing the tax could he found. One way in hon. member of this house in consequence of certain words which it had become a great hardship was from the change which fell from him, I have to express a hope that you will which time had effected in the value of house propene - in be able to assure the house that you have no such intention. the Nish towns. In many, what had once been the fashion- It is my duty to inform you, that since you left the house, able quarter was now the poorest, while the saleable value- the hon. member for Cirencester use intimated to the house tion of the houses remained as high as ever. He bad thought that it was not his intention, in the expressions which it desirable that a committee should be appointed to inquire escaped him, to make use of any language not sanctioned by into the operation of the existing law, and to report whether parliament. (Hear.) Had I heard the expressions whit any and what amendment could be made in it. The right have created the apprehension to which I now refer, I should hon. gentleman said that his (Mr. Hamilton's) amendment at once have felt it my duty to interpose. As it is I con did not go far enough ; he had, however, no objection to the eider it my duty to call upon the hon. member for Cirencee inquiry being extended to any point that did not involve the ter to repeat in your presence the explanation which he abolition of the tax until some substitute wan provided from made after you had left the house. (Hear.) which the incomes of the Irish clergy might be made up to Mr. CRIPPS —I think that no man can feel I should their present amount. The hon. gentleman who had made have heard what I considered to be an imputation upon the the motion had suggested the surplus funds of the ecclesiastical committee of which I am a member, without something of commission es the substitute, but it should be remembered the excitement which, I will admit, I tapes ienced. (Hear, that those funds were already appropriated in:providingchurch hear) The question under discussion was, moreover, one accommodation, glebe houses, and augmenting small livings in which I feel a deep interest. If, however, anything that in this country, and looking at the large number fell from me under this excitement exceeded the limits which of applications' it was not likely that thou funds should be observed in the language of one gentleman to would be sufficient to meet these demands —at another, or the limits of parliameatary debate, I deeply TS least for a long time to come—much lees to provide gret it. (Cheers.) for the deficiency which the abolition of ministers' money Me. F. O'CONNOR said : Mr. Speaker, I beg fully to would occasion in the incomes of the Irish clergy, those in• exculpate you from any gunmen even of a noon comes in Dublin and Cork being almost wholly derived from performance of your duties. The words I made use of Wen that source. The hon. gentleman concluded by moving as these : that I had three d'ities to perform, oar to the house, an amendment " That a 'eke committee be appointed to the second to the committee, and the third to myself. That consider and report upon the state and operation of the laws as regarded the house, I hoped the house would believe me respecting mis.utera' money in Ireland, and to report eche. when I said I would not be a willing party to any delusion ther any and what amendments in those laws would be upou the house. (Hear, hear.) That as to the cemmittee, expedient.' I reiterated what I had stated, that so tar from casting any Dr. I.OWER condemned the impost of ministers' money, imputation upon them, I said, on the contrary, that I fully on the ground that it constantly brought before the minds acquitted them of blame. This I said in words as distinct of the people their degraded position. With regard to a sub- as man could use, and havine stated what I considered to be stitute, it would be hard if one could not be found out of the my duty to the house and to the committee, without further enormous revenues et the established church in Ireland, observation 1 then left the house. I am able to say, which amounted to not less than 650,7501. a year. Seeing that having been a member of this house in Tog that the majority of Ireland was Roman catholic, it was tempestuous times, I have never intentionally most unjust that she should be called on to support a church fered here any personal offence to any member of she believed to be erroneous. This was an injustice which the house. I have ever studiously avoided doing so (bear, was not attempted to be imposed on the inhabitants of either hear); but, at the same time, I feel tha t I should not be England or Scotland. worthy of a place in this house, or among gentlemen, had I Lord BERNARD concurred with the suggestion of the suffered such observations as those directed towards me b hon. member for Dublin University, as one calculated to the hon. member for Cirencester to pass, if not spot tneet the case. W ith regard to the surplus funds of the cc- for, unresented. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member, ec clesiastical commission, it was clearly shown by the reports ever, has said, that he deeply regrets the language he meds of that commission that the funds in their hands were wholly use of, and I for my part at once consent to forget that be inadequate for the objects to which they had been appro. ever did make use of it. (Cheers.) lam not capable of printed. The hon. gentleman opposite had estimated the allowing anything of the kind to rankle in my breast. total income of the established church in Ireland at up- (Hear, hear.) I have now a higher duty to perform to my wards of 650,0001. ; but he believed when the present Secre- self, and to those who entrusted me with this petition, and it tary for the Admiralty last brought the subject under the is to state, that after the unequivocal expression of opinioa consideration of the house he showed that the revenues of on the part of the house, I shall not proceed with the notices that church were not more than sufficient to give an average of which 1 had given notice for tom mow. (liesr, income of 2001. a year to each clergyman. This tax was hear.) I shall leave the matter to be settled not of modern origin—it had been established near 200 years, between the house and the government, and between the and the houses now subject to it were built by the committee and the petition itself. lam not a mangy will proprietors with a full knowledge of their liability to ever permit any delusion to be practised on myor be pay it. Its abolition would not, as was contended, confer a knowingly the means of practistng delusion on others. 1 boon on the poor occupiers, but would be merely making a cannot admit that 1 am to be answerable tor every signalure present of so much money to the owners of the property. He which gentlemen may criticise in any peution that lam rit. believed that, in the agitation on this question, there w quired to present to this house. It would have been morally something more than met the eye, and that the r eal as purpose impossible for me to authenticate every signature in this was not to benefit the Irish people, but to give facilities to mense document. lam glad I did not mlow myself to be increase the majorities of the liberal party at the municipal carried away by a similar excitement to that which urged ° S elections. (Oh.) He also thought that the object of those the hon. enemb . er for Cirencester, and I will now sit down who were so energetic in their denunciations of the Irish repeating my assurance to the hon. member that he we in church was to estahlieh on the ruins of that church a Roman error if he and thou ht ht I intended to cast any imputetion on the catholic e•tablishment. (Cries of " No, no," from the Irish committee • ' having thus shown that there was ne liberal members.) For himself, however, being convinced ground for his attack, I trust I have made firmer the basis that the maintenance of the protestant establishment in Ire- en which he placed his retractation. (Cheers.) land was the beet security for the continuance of the union Mr. NAPIER resumed his arguments ageing the modem, and for civil and religious freedom, he should resist all such and said that in doing so he took his stand upon the Act el . attempts. (Hear, hear.) Unio n, which once and irrevocably settled th e questioe 0 1 Mr. liU DIE believed that, but for the established church ministers' money in Ireland. Every step taken in the date' in Ireland being maintained against the wishes of so large a tion which the hon. member for Cork wished the legislatiftre majority of the people, Ireland would not be in her present to pursue was not only a violation of the Act of Union, bat state of destitution and disaffection. lie looked upon the was also weakening the protestant church of Ireland. het church establishment as the chief cause of the evils of that even supposin/ ministers' money was abolished, who colt country, and they might depend upon it. they would never be the gainers . Those who paid it now woulo not; fe,'...!.'. have peace or content there until that church was reduced landlord would add the amount to his rent, and put ethos. nearer to the wants of the protestant population. (Hear, pocket. (Oh.) The motion therefore was, in his opir a t c s k s hear.) If the noble lord valued so highly the maintenance an unwise and impolitic and even an indefensibl e of the protestant church in Ireland, why did he not pay for upon the protestant church of Ireland, and he would never it without calling upon his catholic fellow-subjects to share consent to rt. t a in the expense ?He was informed that this impostof minis- ?dr. SHELL could make every allowance for . st , tare' money bore very severely on the poorerclua of occupiers, the hon. member for Dublin University, but h cum he zed ratted t he te" and so disgusted were many of the clergymen with this help thinking that many of his constituents reg mode of obtaining their incomes, that many of them, as he signation of the Right lion. Fred. Shaw. It was not ree understood, were in the habit of Calling in the aid of middle- poled by any one who had supported the motion 2 u", mm, who paid them a certain sum, and obtained the money house to deprive any clergyman of one &Bldg of his • . from the poor tenants as they could, often by seizure and it was not proposed even to touch the incomes of theirf: sale (Attar goods. (Hear.) It was to be regretted that in misers ; because those clergymen were net tn. the Irish church reform of 1 833 ministers' money was not curiata. lie did not know a single Roma aidesao in rt re to What the wu i . . Iliiaunianpp a plhis l iiiamic mmi d t sic s ° M s , Jo money, ut i g o:i e todt h a e dg b e t, it ift e :: wh ether .ese b a d.fc . h t v e bruf c t.t.tiut a min so isters' rt.oi a b:d b said, e ere v e f 11hAthvifi sfy neG hn en :e Calig h r tis n CM u e a ; l de elp r i h t h a r ws e t o rt ehbugrrfa requ i red habttfa.phtu church the itid.. meh m l tho ap a p c °Bd e e r h a i reth, : yo sat ih le e:ue a s euhift " : : , h°ll : n ic l oi: P :e. a f i d a hl it i Te hee, P r m i c o cu i n u" othdnwraohlle revenues n ' o i t t b c e ht il b s t aet l t t . l s d s wished, by a specific ac With respect to the pro y , generally, that unle moats in Ireland were de he in vain to look for sati Wes of feeling now ezistii Mr. D. CALLAGIIA the parties who n lected payment from the poor. gether, and would aholist of the present incumben legislature to find tome o was a badge of slavery, it benefit of the minions of provision, id n e te se b p t P V ! I the t. .2111 ti never ht aG ct a a by n j un i t g o : uptf• t ig °s; ! t l ' T • i t e r:i h i .,i ttd o s b L y ri Pee we tl t t hNtc tPn : yutt: gove rnor itoi l r g a iwaf the P ein: et nd t o t 'ir a e b n r a 1 Mr. FAGANFreorp the Against Mr. G. A. HaltILT W Somerville, was tk, LYME Mr. HUME rose to special report of the Ly Mr. Attwood with brit the Attorney. General lie said he rose in cots in a petition which the to that house pre rfo p th a te f ofe h sdie sup otl maoorrdouvu sh ould severest t i ha sthe o bPl eiyma. vi sited of 1 :: 0,1 e l ectionrd e . e i r a l bo 0 o i df n r io Tn e i ts h : l j f id • in houses, the occupant merely for Mr. Av nominate and appoint considered it necessar: which he had placed Mr. BANKES con Sir M. Lopez were at had been unseated matters relative to th Regis, Mr. Attwood I He thought that at t importance should no as he believed that In committee was prism whether the better co maim. Mr. ROME said t should be acting at withdraw the motior Sir 0. GREY app which was accordinv RECOV Mr. B. COCIIItA amend the law relat England. He said 1 motion at that late 1 the law in its presen A recent case, whicl the house, would he lie was induced to sequence of the tre lately detailed in tl bill provided that n other than the dell limit the fees to 2/ default of payment Sir G. GREY s amendment of the I non; but the reps dedly opposed, as it lie lie was not law justified his tre sary that it should Mr. BANKES thanks of the how should have his s dßer a few wo and Sir G. Grey application to him had, therefore, may given to bring in t' The house then Mu The mails for Br will be mac up on th The West India Honduras, New Ort including those for Chaves, Panama, Nicaragua, will be n The reaLls for Vig , will be made up on i The overland mail T4Tpt, Aden, Cl, loh, will be made ey II The overland clot rapt, Aden, Ceylo evening dale :4th The malt, for Zealand will he n o t The mails for the oa the evening c The math, for t h e boon. &doe, Slade taming of the 4th NOTIC The number Btanip-office, du DAILY N This, we holii issued to the Morning Post, In addition t Morning Paper TgE EXI Which wee r the Globe or St •dveTtlibeweat. at OM office, i% T•le Ta.aos.ovit- LONDC IN the Ho Bent was giv the . Stamp 11 ton of OM CAMPBELL 1 the law of m tion of birth which were rine Mutiny REDESDALE which had the Tablet, to know, made by thl Marsais of Jesuits wet( OOWltry to s