The Express. — London, England, 1853-05-13 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. 1 HOUSE OF LOItDS.—TiIeIISDAT, MAY 12. Ile WHO CHANCELLOR took his seat at 5 cieleett.. PETI [IONS PRESENTED. 11ARITARLI THCATA BILL. —By the Bishop of LON DON, from a place is his diocese, against. MERCHANT SEAMEN. 'I he Earl of ELLEN BOROUGH, on presenting a peti tion from Sunderland against the admission of foreign sea man into the coasting trade, said he would take that oppnr tut ity of galling the ottection of the Viet-President of the 44;srd of Trade to an imp•rtant return which had hero de• livered yesterday, relative to the number of British ships and men employed in the trade of the United Kingdom. It presented an extraordinary result into which it was neces sary that souse inquiry should be made. lie had no doubt the facts sta'ed in the return were perfectly correct, tor he bat the greatest mall-term. in Lieutenant Brown, by whom , the return had been eon ilt d. It appeared that in the coasting trade there h.d been in the last year 1 diminution ter 1,118 seamen in tde sailing vessels, and a diminution of , 2841 seamen in the steam venal. There had been an in- Clease of WM,* tons in sadieg vessels, and a diminution of 12,0100 t..nia in steam vessels. Under the second head there appeared a return of the WI seels;andusen employed partly in the home trade and partly in the foreign trade, and the aspeet of 'hat trade was peculiarly unsatisfactory. There had been a felinp off in the tonnage of more than 94,000 tons in soiling limas, whilst in steam vessels there had been ; an mere ae of rather more than 10,000 tons. Tha total fall mg off iu that trade was 341,000 tons, and the diminution in men 1,03 J, the dirinutiou of men to the two trades being, therefore, 2.412. There had been, however, en extraor 'hoary increase in the number of seamen employed in the ton mu trade. the increase, in the tonnage had been 78,000 tons, or 74 per cent. on the total tonnage in sailing vessel.; and the increase in the number of men had been 17,917, or IS, per cent. on the total number of seamen. As to steam vessels, the increase in the number of tone had been above • 22,000, and the incre are in the number of men had been 2,521. So that while the steam tonnage had increased to the coon mous amount of 31 per cent. the number of men had increased at the rate of t'is per cent. He had no doubt that i all the zees stated in the seine to have been shipped on the shores of this country were so employed; but it was contrary to reason to suppose that tl.ey could all have been semen. His impression was that they were bandsmen working their passage to Ana trade, and who bad left this country never to return. It was upon this ',Abject that be wished the noble lord to make an inquiry. It was moat desirable to have a return, not oily of the number' of men who bad left the country, but of *Nee who had come back again in the vessels. Lord STANLEY had no doubt the interpretation of the noble earl was correct; but be would take ears that an in pasty wm mode into the subject. DOCKYARD APPOINTMENTS COMMITTEE. On the motion of Lord RV/UDALL permission was granted to the Earl of Derby to attend the Dockyard Ap pein'isenta Committee. -..—_---- - RANK RI - PTCY BILLS. Lord ST. LEONARD'S withdrew, for the present, the hills which he had introduced for the amendment of the law of bankruptcy and insolvency. The LORD CHANCELLOR. thought that the whole question should be inquired into; and it was hi• intention to institute a moat searching inquire into the subject. After a few words from Lord CAXTSIII.L, _ _ L;r11/0U081Kmiligeog big satisfaction to Lad that the govern seat Mw XlMlShili to isase a commission oa the *abject. The LORD _ _ Ce t= " 73 2 llollo HAM said that nothing could be more Salida& /7 thane commission, and nothing IBM auntie. feta, than coo her oarhamentary inquiry. The LORD CHANCELLOR had little doubt that it mould be a mearaission. a did not pledge himself to • EXCHEQUER BILLS BILL. This hill was read a seeoad time; mid the standing orders having bees disguised with, it passed through its relosioiag COUNTY ELECTION POLLS (SCOTLAND) BILL. This b• 11 was read a wood time. CIIIMNEY-SWEEPERS' REGULATION ACT AMENDMENT BILL. fld the motion that this bill b. read a second time, Ike Eul of CLANCARTY said that many chimneys is Ireland could not be swept by machines, and it was neces sary to make an asesp ins with reference to that country. After a f w words Mm the Eon 9! WICKLOW, The E At! of 6iLLTIRSBURY usil that theobject of the act was to pretest mew of the @vaunts of the act which had bees passed ea the subject some time ago. If he had bees .wine that opteition was to have been offered to so sisals • p would have some down prepond with papers em the oalsject. Bat he could say that no ✓ecords could apprimeh these which might be produced in suppers of the 11111 is pent of suffering, vice, sad cruelty inlicked apes the helpless sad miserable race wham the MR to relieve and protect. Then MI bus a that so apprentices should be takes swim IS t was evaded by employing young ellairmildionshe this as apprentices. Mere infants were takes Mllll tbe unter-tweep to carry his brushes and tools; bib* win SWUM' into houses on this pretense; and the Spa s& they wen in, the doors were locked, and they were *MAW the chimneys. (hear, hear.) It was proposed le gams tkie, by amidst the law the name whether the ail= were employed as apprestioes or not. What was seeded was • measure to put the whole country on the is.. ilesting as the metropolis, where the system of elintb leg boys was entirely abolished. This was the object of the prenstbill, and there was no dosbt say necessary al :erotism of hum aad chimneys, to admit of the use of machines, 'mid soon be adopted. It was most essential that some thing should be done to relieve the oppression of this most wretched class, who were deprived of their rights physical sad spiritual under the present . Lord ST. LEONARDS said s ttrispl• object of the bill was to perm% children under 16 from being employed at all is the bagasse of sweeping chimneys—a very proper oiliest, sod mbiek was sot at all touched by the objection dike sake eltrent. He took as great an interest is say sokie lord in the welfare of the young, and cordially &spooned the bill. The bill was then read • second time. CATHEDRAL APPOINTMENTS BILL. Oa the motion for t h e third stadium of this bill, The Archbishop of CANTERBURY made some obser vatioas in a convereatioual tone. Ile was understood to object to one of the clauses. After a few words from Viscount CANNING, the subject was adjourned until this day. COPIES OF SPECIFICATIONS REPEAL BILL. The report on this bill was received. - - . • BURDENS ON REAL PROPERTY. The Earl of MALMRBBURY presented a petition from Christchurch, for the revision of the poor laws, complaieiag of undue burdens on real property, and praying for an alteration M the law of settlement. Ile did not think that say subject discussed of late years surpassed this in im portance,espeeially at a period when all statesmen seemed occupied with the laudable endeavour to adjust our tans. tioe and make the pressure as equable se possible on all claaies. The perish from which this petition proceeded was a large one, sad the petitioners had in reality to pay ano• ther income tax en their real property, because they had to pay a isusslage ea the vestal they derived from their pro perty That imam tax varied hem 10 to 15 per cent. on the neeval value of the property- is some parishes it bad bees as mush as 80 per cent. t should be remembered that real property paid flee realises a year for the mainta ins's of the poor, and paid ft in a meet anomalous manner, some perishes bete' taxed 80 per cent, and others may one per mat. While a millionaire paid nothing on his fended =, a man with a small cabbie garden was min pay from 10 to 80 per sist os his patch of laid. The subject had been disenued is both houses with great ability, sad is 1850 a committee of their lordships' hoses had bees appointed. He took as satire part in that com mittee es behalf of real property ; another noble lord bad defended as ably what be considered the right. of personal property ; the noble baron opposite (Lord Gerstein) might be considered to have bees the representative of the auriferous interest. (A laugh.) He had proposed in that cimmittee a rate in the nature of an income tax on all property ; but it did not find favour with the committee. At present real property paid two looms Wee fa reality, and he saw no reason why there should be as exemption in favour of other property. Since 1850 the subject had been allowed to rest in their lordships' hoes, until Lord Deniers had brought forward his bill abut a month ago. It had then been stated that it was inilsoMe M palms, the measure, as the principal member lbe gemensmat is the other house was about to ranks a statement on the subject. Hearin. this, he =•ll= t 01e postmessemt of the bill. believing that the prasept goveresmet,possessing ao gutsy elements of strength, wadi have untied, and net have cut, this knot. Hitherto the meinised statement bad not been made, although the 'NNW bad bees explained and lea be'ore the house. It waeVien stated by a noble lord opposite, that in cone at the faapertaat subjects now before the other ems peeseised statement would not he made. He Mtflg ealy fader heat this that the government shrank Ike. what they had undertaken. But, from the pereals in the budget, it was clear the government meant M intend the legacy duty to real property, whereby two minion, of revenue was expected to be paired, eif whi c h per . anal property was to have the benefit. By the proposed ribose,. real property would have the worst of it by 5.700,000 , . He thought that something like a trick had been played on the noble lord (Berrien) to inducing him to suspeed his bill. (Hear, hear.) Ministers must have lost all power of judging fairly if they seriously proposed to burden real property to the extent of other two millions. He wished to ask the noble lord at the head of the govern ment whether it was his intention to bring forwrd sny • this session to reform the present poor law affecting the removal of paupers; and further, if the Propos. el tweceuion duties on real property should become the lee of the laid, he intended to relieve real property from any parties' of the burden of about five millions, which it nos exelasivelv paid for the support of the poor ? The Esel of ABERDEEN was understood to say that it was nut intended to transfer any burdens from per- , meal 1., real property. la answer to the question of the noble lord, he had to state that the business before the other house if parliament was such that it would not be possible to briny forward a measure of this extensive and important description with any reasonable hope of earrt log it this ses sion. And if such a m, enure were introduced and laid on the table, without a reasonable hope of its beans: carried, it would be ettendeil with very mischievous effects on the cosatr I. With respect to the duties to b. imposed en suc cessions, he won's' recommend the noble earl drat te under stand the subject a little better, soil in order to do ro, to wait till he saw the resoMtions. To my that poor-mate to • the ateenrit of five Minions wu paid by issal property web& mete fiction of the noYe lord's inanimation ; perhaps see (meth of that would he nearer the truth. • • (Rear, bear.) ' it wee impossible fur him to give any (nether minter to the noble earl's question. . • . Lord 0 E IiSTON E said that no stihtecUirtiltdextenltlib, either in importance or in tlelieaci., This waviest the time to h discuss it ; but wherever the Code arrived, after due notice, h he should be most ready to meet the noble earl, not in the character of the representative of any interest ; for he could aware their lordships, not in parliamentary language, ' bat in that of a person who wan ACCUlrtonied to the ordinary feelings of an honest men, a person who had the g I and equal rights of his couutrytneo at heart, that he never • wood, OA any question, take any party view, or advocate any Waited interest whatever ; but would rather aim, on all occasions, honestly to exhibit the principles of equality. The Earl of DERBY said the noble lord who had just sat down rims; have quite misapp-ehended what had fallen from his noble friend (the Earl of Malmesbury), or he would not have been under the impression that the noble earl intended to make auy personal attack upon him ; still less that the noble earl intended to speak in terms of die approbation (for he spoke just the contrary) of the come mi!tee with whichthe noble lord was connected. With regard to the proposal of his noble friend (the Earl of )lalmesbirry), which this noble lord had characterised i n some what strong terms, he (Lortllfer by) would not express his opinion, that th; plan was entirely matured; bat still it appeared to him to he one intrinsically founded upon the principles of justice tad equality towards the different classes ; and although he had not assisted at that committee, of which he was not a member, sad although he had not lately perused their report, ho had a very strong impres sion that, so far from speaking with any disparage ment of the suggestions of his noble friend, they stated that they involved much that was worthy of 'the Earl of DERBY said that the discussion bad not arisen at all upon the distinction between landed and other property, but upon real and personal property. It arose out of the proposition which they understood hail been submitted to parliament, by which • new and very heavy tax would be imposed upon successions to real property— property which was now exempt from the legacy duty, but upon which burdens of a disproportionate amount had been Lid for other purposes. His noble friend (the Earl of Malmesbury) had perhaps fallen into error when be spoke of the amount of the new tax, when he spoke of it as reaching 2,000,0001. • be cause it he understood rightly the proposition of the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, a considerable portion of it would fall not upon real property, but upon personal property which had been inherited by succession, or on which, being under settlement, heavy charges had already been laid. But, for his own part. ha was inclined to think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had, perhaps prudently, an de d the amount which in • short time would be re- that the government bad data upon which to argue, but from what he had been able to learn from private sources, he apprehended that the Chancellor of the Exchequer might reckon on receiving, io the course of a few years, from the tax upon real and settled property, a sum far exceeding the 2,000,00 W. he bad stated. (Hear, hear.) This was • matter of very con siderable importance, and being a portion of the financial arrangements, it was one which it would be impossible to amend in that house, and which they would find consider able difficulty rejection, even if they thought it was fraught with serious consequences to the country. They ' ought, therefore, to know precisely what were the data upon which the government based their calcolviona ; and what the probable effect of the imposition of such a tax would be not only upon individuals, but upon the social position of the great masses of this country. It was a subject upon which the im position of a tax of one or two millions might be of very serious importance; but if three or four millions should be the amount of a perpetual tax upon sue erasion to real property and property under settlement, and therefore not capable of being converted into money, his belief was thit the effect would be—though he did not mean to say that that was intended by the government—in a very short time to break down materially, and to compel the partition of almost all landed property. (Cheers.) He believed that the offset would be most oppressive and most severe, not upon large properties only, but, in a measure, much greater on properties of a moderate extent, which would actually be rained by • measure of this kind. ((fear, bear.) It would therefore be the duty of that house before such a measure was introduced, or . at all *rents passed, to ascertain what would be its probable re sults; sod he begged, therefore, to ask the noble earl (Lord Aberdeen). whom, however, he would not then pre+s for an answer, whether he should object to the appointment of a select oommittee of that house, to inquire iuto and re purt upon the subject ? That committee ought to have be fore it a Dumber of the most experienced solicitors, who would be able Olive them valuable information on the point. pillar, hear. Earl k ITZWILLI ) AII reminded their lordships that the sonvenationa;OseZtlTeViaii;e7of the poor law. The main question to be decided was, whether the rates should be levied upon a local community or the great body of the nation ? II they adopted the former view, then they could be raised on real property, and real property only ; for if they attempted to render personal property liable they would encounter inextricable difficulties. Ile had always been opposed to the income tax, but he had been in favour of a tax upon property. The great objection to the proposed tax cm wereesions was its great inequality. A young sea 'eight emu into possession of an estate, and hold it for a long life ; but while the property in that case would only pay the tax once, another property might change hands six or seven times within the same period, and be naafis to contribute as many times. He (Lord Pitxwilliam) did not wish to diminish the amount to be raised one penny, but he thought that an injudicious selection of a new tax had been made. He should be sorry to be supposed not to concur in the general financial policy of the government, but he hoped this particular feature of the budget would be recon sidered. (Hear, hear.) Lord STANLEY said the only reason why the govern mcnt had not introduced • measure on the poor laws, was the difficulty of dealing with it under the present pressure of public business. He thought, however, that it would be impossible to introduce • msasure of this kind in that house. The Marquis of SALISBURY disputed this last opinion of tho noble lend. The best measure of poor-law reform had been brought in by the noble lord then on the wool sack. Th. subject then dropped. THE CLITHEROE ELECTION CASE. Lord BEAUMONT &ow the attoneles of the house to the taut that the harm had sent no answer to the applica ties of the other home to ea•our in a joint address to the crown, foraying her Majesty to appoint a commission to inquire into the state of this borough. As the ease might arias over and over again, it wee highly desirable that the house should adopt math definite course which might serve as a precedent. If no Gas else made the motion it was the business of the government to see that some answer should be returned to the House of Commons. The Earl of ABERDEEN said he was very glad the NMe lord had brought this subject before the house, as he limenght it was proper the house should coon to a decision iron it. Some time ago a noble and learned lord asked him what was his intention with regard to this address, and he told him in answer that although he had moved that their lordships should agree with other similar addresses which bad been sent up from the House of Commons, it was not his intention to make any such motion with regard to this address; but that of course it was competent for any other sells lord who thought proper to make such a motion. If he seesilected might his noble and learned friend gave some oaN olfintimation of such an intention, but he supposed he =ram been mistaken. At all events it was com ber him or 'pay other noble lord to make the sew, mid that not having been done he concluded that it woe sit the wish or intentioned any noble lord to take such bete% MA be, therefore, felt it iseastesat on him to pro pose • mew fswileir Iwahipo adepr with reference to this visetter. Ameolog, es bedlll,lllol their lordship' were disposed to errs is me edepthei Ile address of the Henna Commons, it was siswerrify ..tender what was the proper and suitable connote tam The best course to take, he thought, would be to mon Oat the address be taken into consideration that day ale samiths. That was the OMNI they pursued with regard to all bills sent up from the other house, and which they were not disposed to pass, and the House of Commoas had discovered what their lordships had doe* by searching the records of their proceedings. That was considered the most courteous mode of proceeding towards the other house, because be believed in former times they did not move the postponement of the reading of • bill for six months, but they rejected it absolutely; and it was in consequence of its being considered a more courteous proceeding towards the other house that they had adopted the mode now usually followed. Undoubtedly their lordships might proceed by demanding a conference, and stating the reasons which led them to differ from the address ; but he sbould humbly re commend that they should resolve that the address should be considered that day six months. And then came the question whether they would communicate that decision to the House of Commons, or they should lead them to dis cover it from their lordships journals. On that subject he had no decided opinion. He should, on the whole, be ; rather inclined to adopt the first mode, and make no cora -1 munieation to the House sof Commons. At the same time, I if it should be thought more respectful to the House of j Commons to communicate their decision, he bad no ob jection to panne that course ; but his opinion was in an opposite direction. Ile would now move that the address to her Majesty in relation to the borough of Clitheroe, agreed to by the House of Commons and communicated to this house by • conference on the I Ith of April last, be taken into consideration that day sin months. Ile had no thing to add to that resolution, but if any of their lordships should think it desirah'e to communicate is to the House of Commons he should not urge any great objection to it. Lord ST. LEONARD'S said he felt it h:s duty to read the evidence in all these cases, and he thought it quite impossible that in this ease they should agree with the ad ' dress of the House of Commons. As there was a g concurrence of opinion on that subject it was not at all ne cessary to discuss the matter. It appeared to him more re spectful to the House of Commons that they should not communicate their decision to that house. They mhght de mand a conference, hut it appeared to him that by so doing they would appear to be rather brewing their views on the House of Commons. Lord lIEDESDALE had hat woe communication with other parties on this subject, ant!. he was rather disposed to think that having come to the resolution proposed, they ought to take a Moe means to communicate it to the other j house. They should reireernher that this was a subject in which the privileges of the House of Commons were eon ' earned. Thy badsent them up a message, desiring them !to oostot with them iu an address. They did not consider 1 4 it EiNtitSS, FIiIDAY . : EVPIIII4I. MAY It, 1851 it expedient, and declined, and he thought it more dolly aisle to inform the 119ase of Commons of their dtwiat f Un. in briTkr that the House of Commas an/pfit hike "ugh ether eqla se a they Might think uxpedient. e motion was then put and carried. Lord BE AUMONT sari be agreed in the opinion ex pressed by the nate lord ( edeadale). .. Ile Her/ of ABERDREN had already said he had no great objection to adopt the course proposed by the noble lord, although be did not agree with hien. He moved that a message be sent to the House of Commons, acquaint ing them that this bower tinging eenaidered the report of the select committee of the nouns of Commons, appointed to consider a petition complaining of an undue election for the borough of Clitheroe, sod the minute/of evidence taken before it, do not think it expedient to concur in an address to her Majnty praying for an inquiry. The motion was agreed to. BOROUGH OF MALDON. Lord ST. LEONARD'S asked the Earl of Aberdeen what was the intention of government with regard to the address for an inquiry respecting the borough of Dfaldon. The Earl of ABERDEEN said he had read the evidence in regard to all the other cases in which he had moved for an address, but he had not read the evidence in this case yet, end he could not therefore at present answer the question. Their lordships then adjourned at half-past seven o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—TntrawAr, MAY 12. The tiraaaas took the chair at 4 o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. • The Lords' intendment* to the following bill were eon• sidered and agreed to --Wakefield Soke Mills Bill. The following bills were read a third time:—Australian Agricultural Company; Dundee Waterworks; Great Northern Railway (No. 1) ; Londonderry. Enni•killen, and Sligo Railway; Lough Foyle and Lough Swilly Drain age and Reclamation ; and Lough Foyle and Lough Swilly Railway. The following bills were considered and ordered to be read a third time:—High Ham and Ashcott Roads; Mid land Railway ; and York Drainage and Sanitary Improve ment and You Navigation. The following bill was read a second time :—Upper India Railway. LONDON AND FINSBURY IMPROVEMENTS AND in the leailirie beta which he had eland. hear.) Per was no secret arrangement at giu; there could not havo been. Mil right h friend the Member for Wells, whom 1w mot casually, asked him how he wee likely to vote upon the budget. (Great laughtei.) His answer was, that he never gave a tory vote since be had had a seat in chat house, and that he acme intended to do so. (Laughter.) The right hon. gentleman then asked him what be thought of the feelings of Irish members. He said he thought that if Irish member could have anything like an assurance that if the former min stern returned to power they would not propose an income tax fur Ireland, that would have weight with them. That was said on the steps of the Re form Club, just when he was coming down to the house. The right hon. gentleman referred him to the budget of the right hon. baronet the member for Halifax, and to Lis speech in 1851, in which he stated that he was against ex tending the income tax to Ireland. He (Mr. M. O'Connell) said. "Can I mention this ?" The reply wee, " Certainly?' Ile did mention it, and he stated that he had the authority of the right hon. gentleman the member for Wells. Another thing occurred which his hon. friend hod not mentioned. It wee said, " Will the late Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir C. Wood) repeat his statement on the subject to the house ?" lie (Mr. M. O'Connell) mentioned the matter to the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Hayter), and the right hon. baronet (Sir C. Wood) did repeat his statement. (Hear, hear.) This we, an exact statement of what occurred. For himself ho could only say that what influenced him on the occasion was the feeling that the interests of Ireland would be safer in any other hands than in those of the late givernment. Mr. HATTER trusted he should be permitted to say a few words with regard to the aonversation which took place between himself and hia hon. friends the members fur Roscommon and Tralee. He daresay that what had been stated by his hon. friend the member for Roscommon was perfectly true in substance. (Laughter from the oppo sition.) Hulled no recollection of the matter, but he did not mean at all to dispute the facts. (Hear, bear.) He had no doubt that his hon. friend had a commu nication with him in the hurried manner in which many such communications were made, and with all of which he confessed he could not charge his memory. (Ministerial cheers.) But he thought it quite impossible that he could have gone to the extent that his hon. friend had stated—that be could have said he had any authority for stating the opinions of any of those who might be called the leaders of the whig party, further than what had been mentioned by his hon. friend the member for Tralee. Of what really took place between himself and his hon. friend the member far Tease, be had a distinct recollection. Ile referred to the financial statement of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir C. Wood). The hon. gentleman asked him whether he thought it probable that if the late government returned to power, they would propose an income tax for Ireland. He refer ral his hon. friend to the speech made by his right honourable friend the member for Halifax, in 1851, in which his right hon. friend distinctly stated that he thought Ireland was in too exhausted a condition to bear the imposition of en income tax. He stated to him, moreover, that he be lieved his right hon. friend still retained the opinion which he expressed in 1851, and that he bad no hesitation in say ing that, it called upon to do so, he would again declare that he considered Ireland, with all the ineumbrances which were then upon it, in too exhausted a state to bear the imposition of an income tax. He never told his hon. friend that he hat any authority from his right hon. friend, or any authority from any one, to express his opinion ; but he believed he had a right, as every man had, to state what his own political opinions were, and also to state, as far as he knew them, the political opinions of those with whom he had the honour to act. (Hear, hear.) Now between the statement of his hon. friend the member for Roscommon and that of his hoe. friend the member for Trak*, there was no material difference except with regard to the statement of his hon. friend the member for Roscommon—that he professed to give the opinion of the leading whigs. He could only say that if he did make such a statement it was incorrect. His recollection of the matter was, he repeated, inconsistent with the statement of his hon. friend the member for Roscommon, although of course he did nut doubt his hon. friend's word. Sir C. WOOD was glad that this matter had at last been brought before the house, and that they bad no longer to deal with insinuations. He felt grateful to his hon. friend the member for Mayo for bringing the subject before the house the other night, and grateful also to his hon. friend the member for Westmeath for introducing it that evening. With regard to what he had said on this subject, he begged to remark that it was recorded against him in Mansard; and, as he was not in the habit of saying one thing in the house and another out of it, he begged to state that he recollected (as was understood) saying to his right hon. friend the member for Wells (Mr. lisyter) ex actly what hie right hon. friend had stated to the house— namely, that in the then circumstances of Ireland, with the charges then resting upon it, he was against extending the income tax to that country. (Hear, hear.) He said he Ought the partial mode in which the right hon. gentlemen ztite (Mr. Disraeli) proposed to extend it was not to he ed—that if it were extended to Ireland at all it must be applied to land. lie observed that the charge imposed by what was termed " the labour rate " pressed so much on the western districts of Ireland that while that charge remained those districts would not be in a con dition to bear the income tax. Any one who took the trouble to refer to what he said in that house would see that no other interpretation could be put upon it. That was his opinion then, and he stated it distinctly. Now, as he stated a fortnight ago, if it had been proposed to impose au income tax on Ireland in addition to the existing charges, he could not have been a party to it; but when the western districts were benefitted to such an extent as they were by the remission of the consolidated annuities, he saw no objection to such a step. Mr. MALINS thought the house would agree with him that nothing could be more incumbent on every hon. mem ber than to to cautious in stating facts within his own knowledge involving personal character. The hon. mem ber for Mayo (Mr. Moore) had in his hearing stated distinctly that Irish members bad been waited upon by the accredited agents of the whip and the Peelites, who declared that if they would join those partics in turning out Lord Derby's government, they, in return ' would undertake not to extend the income tax to Ireland. Now, ho at once avowed that when be heard that statement he believed there mast have been some misapprehension; for, though he was opposed Is polities to hon. members opposite, he trusted they would always act on principles which would entitle them to re spect, and he bad told the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) the other evening that when be said he knew a certain thing that was in his mind conclusive. (Hear, hear.) The state ment of the hon. member for Westmeath, though made is very distinct terms, now appeared to be erroneous. Mr. MAOAN—No. Mr. MALINS continued—lt now appeared that the right hon. gentleman the member for Wells (Mr. Ilayter) was not a party to any compact whatever—(bear, bear)—and that the whole thing had its beginning and ending is one of those numerous conferences sod conversations te which that right hon. gentleman was a party. A statement founded on one of those loose conversations which were got up in that house, and a charge of perfidy and of unfitness te govern the country, resting on the same basis, did appear to him to call for some apology to the house. The characters of public men were the property of the nation, sad he hoped that what had occurred that even ing would be a warning to honourable members not to make statements in that house, involving personal character, which were founded on a mere conversation. Mr. MAGAN said that the hon. and learned member who had implied that he (Mr. Megan) had stated what was not the truth, had fastened on a word which he (Mr. Megan) had not used. He had fastened on the word "accredited agent." He had not said that certain members came osten sibly as accredited agents, but he considered them—and he would consider honourable members in whatever light he thought proper—(laughter)—he considered the honourable members to whom allusion bad been made as accredited agents of the Whig and Peelite sections respectively, know ing their intimate and frequent intercourse with the respec tive government departments. He had not said they were accredited, but they were looked upon as accredited, and he had as much right to look upon them in that light as be had to look upon the honourable and learned member who had just spoken as an accredited agent of Lord Derby. (Load laughter.) With regard to the statement just made by that honourable and learned gen tleman—he supposed he must speak of it in strictly parlia n.entary language—it was decidedly both malicious and un true. (Loud laughter, and cries of "order.") The SPEAKER intimated to the hon. member that the two last words were such as were not permitted in that house. Mr. MAGAN had no objection to withdraw the words. (Hear, hear.) Mr. BOWYER said he was anxious to give in a few words his testimony on this matter, the more especially as he had been present at all the meetings held during the present session by the Iri,h members, and as he had voted so frequently against the government he would not be sup posed to have any bias in their favour. He could only say that at not one of their meetings did he hear of any commu nication, either by an accredited 'gent, or by any other person respecting the intentions of the present government to exclude Ireland from the operation of the income tax. No doubt there might have been conversations on the subject, and the right hon. member for Wells might have given his impressions as to what was likely to be done in the event of the opposition becoming the government, but nothing more had taken place, and for his (Mr. Bowyer's) part, he might say that he had known nothing of the matter until two or three days pre viously, when it was mentioned by the hon. and gallant member for Westmeath. There was a circumstance which corroborated his impression on this subject. There were several among the persons present at the meeting held by the Irish members immediately before the debate and di vision which expelled Lord Derby from office, with whom a feeling evisted that a communication should be had with the leaders of the opposition before they gave a vote which might produce a change in the administration. Others, amongst whom he (Mr. Bowyer) was one, thought that such a course would not be expedient ; but he thought that if a communication such as had been charged had tsk••n place, this last discussion would not have been considered necessary. lle submitted the mere facts to the house to show what were the notions which had really been held by the Irish members. tilear, hear.) The proceedings were here interrupted by the Serjcant at-Arms introducing a messenger from the Lords, bringing certain papers. The messenger having withdrawn, Mr. LUCAS would ark the hon. ands learned member whether it was worth while to continue his explanations for the purpose of throwing doubt on the fact of authorised communications having taken place. lie (Mr. Lucas) would now state the facts, of which he had a distinct recollection. (" Hear, hear," and a laugh) After the meeting to which the hon. member for Rucommon had alluded, another meeting took place, the hon. member for Tralee being in the chair, and that hon. member told the Irish members RAILWAY BILL. On the motion of iiii:Vjittil;;;eond reading of this 11l was postponed till Monday, the 23rd of May. !PUBLIC BUSINESS. _ _ _ LUNACY BILLS. - _ On the motion 74itii.: *AI.POLRTLord St. Leonard's Lunacy Balls were brought in, read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Friday, the 20th. THE NEWSPAPER STAMP. Mr. RICARDO said on the 6th of December last keys was given to introduce a bill to amend the law with regard to the newspaper stamp. The present government under took to go on with it, and a promise was given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that no time should be loot in laying the bill on the table. Up to that time it bad not been laid on the table; and, as there were several prosecu tions going on, he wished to ask the Attorney-General when it would he. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said his hon. and learned friend the Attorney-General would be able to speak more precisely than he could with regard to the prosecutions ; but, with regard to the general question, he thought the hon. gentleman could not be aware of an answer which he had lately given to a question on the sub ject. What he then stated was, that a bill on the subject had been prepared, and that he was ready to introduce it. but thatsorne of its provisions bore upon another question which had been brought before the house, ramely, the re peal ex modification of the advertisement duty. Ho sug gested, therefore, that it might be for the convenience of the house to postpone the progress of the bill until they had had en opportunity of gathering the fullest information with regard to the advertisement duty, and he observed that if that einem was approved of by the house, he would post pone (or a short time the iatroduction of the bill. That answer appeared to meet with approbation ; and it was not now his intention to introduce the bill until he was pre pared to announce what course the government would take with regard to the advertisemnt duty, which bore upon the other question to a considerable extent. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said it was perfectly true that there was a prosecution pending in the Court of Ex chequer against Mr. Collett on the subject of the newspaper stamp. lie ought to add that that prosecution was com menced expressly at the instance of the hon, member for Stoke-upon-Trent (Mr. Ricardo). (Laughter). The hon. member came to him and slid that Mr. Collett was desirous of baring the question settled, whether there had been an infringement of the law or net, and that he would divon talus publication until it had been settled. He (the Attor ney General) thought, therefore, thought it was but just to Mr. Collett that the prosecution should take place. (Laughter.) Mr. RICARDO said, although the prosecution was com menced at his instance, he had acted in the belief that in the internal the bill to which he had alluded would be laid on the table; and his request was simply, that the prosecu tion might be transferred from the police-office at Bole street to the Court of Exchequer, which was the proper tribunal to try the legal question. (Hear, hear.) Mr. NEWDEOATE wished to know whether it was a fact that Irish newspaper prorrietors paid only three far things for the stamp while English proprietors paid a penn ? 1 The y CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he would make inquiries on the subject. Captain JONES said feeling it to be impossible to take a discussion on the subject of the spirit duty on the second reading, he begged to say that he should do so in coca mittee. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had better state, then, that he woald propose the second reading at a late hour, unless eomet hon. gentleman ex pressed a desire to oppose the bill at that stags. Mr. CRAIJEURD would certain' ly prefer to have the dis cussion on the second reading. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was under stood to say that, in that cue, he would take the second reading of the bill atter the legacy-duty resolutions had been disposed of. 1 The Clerk then proceeded to read the orders of the day. THE GOVERNMENT AND THE HUSH MEMBERS. _ On the order of the day (or going into committee of ways and means, Mr. MADAN rose, in pursuaaos of notice, " to make a statement respecting certain views attributed to the mi. slaty/ on the subject of the imposition of the income tax on Ireland." He said he felt that he ought to apologise fur bringing this question before the house ; but, as it was one in which be was personally concerned, he hoped be should be excused. He wisted to be allowed to repeat what he 'said in the house on Monday evening last, and to point out to the hon. member for Cambridgeshire that what he attri buted to him he never said. That hon. gentlemmissited him if that which he had stated on Friday night was correctly andentood by him, and also requested him to be so good as to repeat to the house the state ment which he mule: and he followed up this request with several others which he (Mr. Magas) had no power of greeting. Now, with reference to the first part of the question, he had to idfbrm the hon. gentle man that what he said was not correctly understood, nor anything like correctly understood. What be said was, that certain members of parliament who were present at a certain meeting, asserted that if a party who ex pected to come into office, succeeded in seeseaplishing their objects, no income tax would be lowed on Ire land. The hon. members who conveyed the infimmatien which he alluded were the hon. member for demo ass (lir. F. French) and the hon. member for Talmo (Kr. Maurice O'Connell). Mr. F. FRENCH was sure that, after the statement made by the hon. member for Westmeath, the house mum thisk it right that he should either contradict it or admit its truth. Now he had no contradiction to offer to the state ment of his hon. friend. Thus much, however, he must my : his boo. friend :gave the house to understand, when he brought the subject before them, that there had been some secret negotiation. There was no secret negotiation whatseever. (" Hear," from Mr. Maurice O'Connell.) Everything that happened was aboveboard ; nothing was concealed, or attempted to be concealed. (Hear, hear.) If the house would allow him, he would tell them whet did happen. A meeting of Irish members was held to consider what course it wee desirable for them to take with regard to the budget brought forward by the right hon. gentleman the member for Bucks. At that meeting • good deal of dissatisfaction was efpremed at the proposed extension of the income tax to Ireland. "But,' it was said, " in the event of the government of Lord Derby being turned out on this budget, what reason have we to suppose that an income-tee of limited extent, or even an income tax in its entirety, will not be introduced by the governmeat who shall succeed i" While the debate was going on he lett the room upstairs. In coming down he met the right hon. gentleman the member for Wells (Mr. Hayter). He stated to him what objections were urged, and he rather thought he asked him if there was any foundation for a change of policy being supposed to have taken place among the leading whip, and whether it was or was not likely that if they came into power they would introduce an mcome-tax for Ireland. The right hon. gentleman told him, if his memory served him rightly, that he had spoken to some of them—he thought he men tioned the right he n. gentleman the member for Halifax (Sir C. Wood), and that it was not the intention of the lead ing ' , shies, if they returned to power, to depart from the policy which they had hitherto pursued. (Opposition cheers.) The meeting was, as he had stated before, ad- Mourned ; and at the adjourned meeting, which he attended, the chairman, who was his hon. friend the member for Tree., stated, as well as he could remember—and two hon. members bchiud him, who were present, had declared that his impression was correct—that he was authorised to state that it was tot the intention of the whig party, if they re turned to power, to impose an income tax on Ireland. lie might be asked why he had not accused the present govern , Rent of a breach of faith in proposing to extend 'the income tax to Ireland. The reason was this, that from the very fermatioa of that governmeet he had not considered it a whig government. It never entered into his I bead that either of the great parties in that house would allow a few honourable gentlemen to become the govern ment of leountry. Ile had had no communication with the eght n. gentleman the member for Wells since this subject was first introduced. Ile trusted that he hail nst misrepres:nteil him, and if he had done 60 in any respect it was unintentimelly. Mr. M. O'CONNELL said as one who was interested in this matter. he thought it right to make a short statement. lie must corroborate his hon. friend opposite (Mr. French) ttli Bear," • tofall .tats thalkitia bad eennmunication with a leading , gettion to the ,E member of the while party—he did not know whether the rents a little more. (" ear, and a laugh) This e • tun. menthe , used tilt word " au.•borised," but the imperil- not his construction, but the leferene • to be deducts! f rom !lon was that he spoke from author;*v— to the t fleet that if the hoe. gentleman'. speech. (Hear, hear.) But he should the Derby government wet ejected iOtm office, the whig like to ask what as the ease in Sentlend in thi s respect! government, if ft succeeded, would not vet the income tax l ike believed if it was title that the fa:l had been small ie upon Ireland. (Likud opposition cheers.) He (Mr. Lucas) Englund it had bmn much smaller in Scotland. Tha hon. had not been a party in bringing these qu nations forward gentleman had entered into a discussion of the general in any way, directly or indirectly, and had nothing to do condition of the farmer, and the effect which the fall in with the question that hod been raised ; as to „natters post prices had bed upon his profits. Now he deprecated any that were within hie knowledge , he felt called up on to state change in the income tax as applying to farmers o n t h at what was his distinct recollestion of these facts. (Hear, I grourd, the true principle of legislation b eing th at farming hear.) Ile was perfectly certain that the mats-mane was I like all other occupations must be supposed to find its level made to them when they were in doubt as to the .•ourse in the ordinary competition between man and man. they should take respecting the budget, and that it was sequently they had no right to suppose that th e p ro fi ts of made for the purpose of influencing their votes. (Opposafarmers the were less than they were so me ti me ago, but tion cheers.) And although, when a gentleman had eo that the fall in price which bad take n pl ace had been m et make up his mind on a particular subject, a number of by increased production consequint upo n d ra i nage, the ie. considerations might influence him, and it was impossible trodaction of machinery, and improved mod es o f cultiva te say how much he might have been urged by one in 1)06. ties. But the main consideration urn which h e resisted cubit, yet it was a matter of fact that communication had this amendment wan that the (Oat et was alr e ady provided been made—authorised they felt entitled to consider it— for. It would be fair in parliament to say we h ave fi xed a and that that communication was followed uP by the speech standard of assessment fur the former which e a v es hi m from of the right hon. member for Halifax, who warned them all the vexetims operations of the ta x an d w hi c h we believe (tbe Irish members) not to be gulled—(loud oppositio n to be equitable. But having said th a t, i n t h e b e l ief that it ebeera)—he was using the very words of the right hon. was putting the farmer on at least as go o d a f oot i ng as all baronet from Hansard—not to be gulled by the promises other dames of the community, it w en t a step further to of the right hon. member for Buckinghamshire, adding imp:ove his condition, and gave Into the option o f t a m e that lrishmeu would be greater fools than he had ever con- led under schedule Don his profits, but of course at eidered them if they allowed themselves to be " gulled" tended with the inqiiiatorial examinati on i nto his affairs, by a proposition the real objectof which was to introduce from which, under tile first plan, he was exempt, lie the small end of the wedge into Irish finance. thought the hon. gentleman h a d, in s p ea ki ng o f t h e farmer's (Loud cheers from the opposition.) He (Mr. profits, fallen into the common error of omitting to Lucas) had not the slightest doubt that the com- into the account the cost of. living. It was usual amongst munication was an authorised communication proceeding farmers to look upon the cost of maintaining them_ la some way from the right hon. member for Wells. (" No, selves and their families us part of the expense of culti sm" from the ministerial benches.) That it was as autho crating the farm ; and the being exempt from the itiqui. rimed communication was unquestionable, and bucked up as sitorial examination into all these matters was no 'Man It war by the strong, vehement, and pointed remarks of the advantage to the farmer. But parliament had your right boa. member for Halifax, that communication, backed further, and had said to the farm er , y ou may take your up by such an entreaty, did, as a matter of fact, influence choice between two alternatives. If you do not wi s h an ex. Ys (Mr. Lucas's) mind. (Loud opposition cheers.) It did amination into your affairs, if you know that your profits In only a small degree, but he pledged his honour as a are mere than half your rent, you may be assessed under gentleman, that in some small but distinctly rememberable schedule B, on the moiety of your rent ; but if in any y ear degree that "authorised" assertion did influence his mind your profits are less than the moiety, then you can claim in the course he had pursued. (Hear.) to be assessed under schedule Das a trader, and on proving Mr. BOWYER wished to add, with reference to what before commissioners inyourown district—persons who will had just fallen from the hon, member for Meath, that he have sympathy with farmers—that your profits have not did not for one moment deny that there had been a conver- reached the amount charged, can obtain an abatement if action as to what the whig party would do in the event of you have not paid, or a return of the difference if ye a their coming into o ffi ce, but he still repeated that ho had have paid. This was not only a just, b u t a most liberal s ad not looked upon the communications which took piece as indulgent arrangement. The hon. gentleman said this was having anything like authority. delusion because the farmer kept nu accounts. la the first Mr. M. O'CONNELL, in answer to the hon. member for place he denied that this was correct in regard Meath, genied that he had said a word about "authorised" to the bulk of the farmers, especially in the north • but if communications. lie had never stated anything of the this were the only di ffi culty h., h a d no doubt t hat the kind, and his recollection was very distinct. He could not farmers themselves, or their sons or wives, would soon leant have stated it. (Ministerial cheers and opposition laughter.) to keep accounts. A large body of the farmers did keep He merely stated what he had repeated to the house that accounts, and were acquainted with the l aw un d er which 1 evening, that he had it on the authority of a conversation they could claim to be assessed under schedule D; and with the right hon. member for Wells, but he did not state what had been the extent of relief under it? The total that either that right hon. gentleman or himself were amount paid by the tenant farmers was 330,0001., including " accredited." He had nothing further to add to what he Scotland, where all the farmers kept accounts, and the bad elready placed before the house. whole amount of relief granted under the new GREVILLE would not have attempted to occupy clause was between 5,0001. and 6,0001. a year, • the house for a moment, were it not for the great difference and last year, 1852, it ;had been 3,419/. t ime of opinion that prevailed. The statement of the hon. mem- that state of facts, to accede to the motion would not her fur Meath bad been called in question. Now, he must be a concession but a paltering with the tax, and with the state, for his own part, that he had attended every meeting case of all the classes which were dealt with under it, and of the Irish members, and had a perfect recollection of the open the door to other motions for exemption. meeting in question. As far as he had understood the hon. Sir F. KELLY made a last ear nest appea l on behalf member feel ralee, who was in the chair, that hon. member of the farmers of England, than whom no class of the said that he had authority to make a statement to this whole community was more justly entitled to the sympathy effect: Vote to put out Lord Derby's government, and that of the home,. in the event of tho whips coming into office, the income tax Mr. BRIGHT said that the hon. a n d learned gentleman w..uld not be extended to Ireland. ( Loud opposition appeared to have been speaking from what might be called cheers.) He had a most distinct recollection of that state- a Suffolk brief. (" Hear," and a laugh.) If that were so, meat, but he had not since heard another word about it. he should say that the hon. and learnea gentleman had been (Laughter.) badly advised, and that the facts bud not been fairly remit. Mr. V. SCULLY said he had not intended to interfere seated to the committee. First of all with regard to the in the discussion, believing that it was hardly worthy of the airing of taxes which he had shown were paid by the far house to found debates on these lobby conversations. mer. It must be in the recollection of the hon. and learned (" Hear," and laughter.) Bait he had also a clear recollec. gentleman that the right hon. gentleman the member for tion of the meeting in question. (" Oh, oh," and laughter.) Buckinghamshire, when be sat on those (the ministerial) And as he had taken rather a prominent part subsequently benches, in one of his powerful speeches, die in consequence of the statemeets then made, he would put posed of those taxes in a very summary men the house in possession of what really occurred. A meet- ner, and satisfied the house that the arguments ing was held en the Bth December, the Irish Land Bill which he bad formerly based on those taxes were fallacious, having, on the 7th, been referred, with the consent of the and that the category in which those taxes were included Derby government, to a select committee. They (the Irish was obsolete, and that th e y were not to be referred to agai n members) were assembled, openly, to consider the interests in that house. Even if that were not the case, the bon. and of their country in a straightforward manner, and it was learned gentleman took au unfair advantage of their credu stated by the hon. member for Meath and the gentleman lily, when he said that those taxes were all paid by those who acted with hint, that they had obtained from Lord for whom he was pleading. He must know that more than Derby's government what they could never have obtained half of them was paid by property which was not land, and from the whigs—namely, the recognition of Sharman Craw- not connected with agricult ure ; th a t i n 1842 , and weft ford's bill. This was the first indication of an attempt to dent to that time, the proportion paid by the farmer was induce them in a body to support the tory ministry. greater than the proportion which the land now paid, and (Ministerial cheers.) He should mention, that at the same that year after year an increasing proportion was paid by moment Lord Derby was making his celebrated deals - prop e rty not ag r ic u lt ura l, an d a di m i n i s hi ng proportion by ration that he repudiated Sharman Crawford's bit agriculture. altogether. (Laughter.) They were not aware of Sir F. KELLY said that the figures which he had stated Lord Derby's declaration at the time, while it showed that the greater proportion was paid by the land. was said on the other hand, that the tories were Mr. BRIGHT—But if other property was equally introducing the small edge of the wedge for an Irish in- charged with all those, and they had no special claim to come tax. Another said, "What will the whigs do if they relief in either case, the argument of the hon. and learned come in ?" Another said, " Let us go in a deputation, and gentleman failed, What was the proposition of the boa, ascertain what they will do." Then it was said, " Ob. member fur Berkshire? In a simple form it appeared to with regard to their intentions, we have it from a very be this, that farmers who now paid rent at the rate of 3001. active member of the whig party, that, if they come in, a year, and were assessed to the income tax on 1501. a year, they will not impose an income tax on Ireland." (Oppo- were only 'o pay on 1001. a year. That would be entirely sition cheers.) He (Mr. Sculiy) then rose and said, that as excluding from the operation of the income tax the farmers one Irish member he would not join any deputation to gen- who paid rents from 2001. to 3001. a year, who, he hoped, tlemen who we. not in office to ascertain what were shale could be numbered by some thousands , and that whilst you intentions. He added, that if they wanted to communicate were going to include in it thou-ands of persons connected with the Irish members, they knew where to find them— with trade, clerks, mechanics with 21. a week wages, you (a laugh)—and that if they were going to do nothing, would not include farmers who paid rents between 2001. there was no use running after them. (Laughter.) lie and 3001. a year. That was the moot extmordinary propo. remembered a deputation to the right hon. member fit sition he ever heard, even from the opposite eideof the house. Bucks, beaded by the hon. sod leatned member for Kil- It was most preposterous when mechanics with wages of 21. kenny, which was not received ; and one to the tory per week were about to be subjected to an income tax, to Attorney-General, at which the hon. and learned mem- ask for an exemption for farmers, who, say with 300 acres, bee for Kilkenny complained in language which would have, or should have, a capital of 3,0001., and who, could hardly be considered classical, that he was of course, notwithstanding what the hon. and learned gen " snubbed.' (Loud laughter.) He (Mr. Scully) re- tleman seemed to believe, made a good interest on their membered that the hon. member for Meath did all in his capital. He (Mr. Bright) characterised the proposition as power to induce the Irish members to support the tory one of the most impudent ever made is that house. ("Hear, government. (Loud ministerial cheers.) He must agent bear," and cheers.) protest against the Inconvenience of quoting these lobby Sir F. KELLY could not appreciate the argument of the conversations; as an instance of which he would mention a hon. member for Manchester, inasmuch as the hon. mem eircurnstaece that had occurred a few days since, when the ber had taken for granted that he (Sir F. Kelly) was in fa irish members were in the balance as to how they should your of subjecting artisans to the income tax. All be could yote--(loud laughter),—while they were considering the say was, that if the bon. member would propose the ex very difficult proposition that had been submitted to them emption of that class he would vote fur the motion. by the Chancellor of the Exchequer for extending the in- Mr. BANKES would not deny, on this occasion, the name tax to Ireland, while at the same time he remitted the prosperity of the farmers ; but the house was going to im sonsolidated annuities. It was openly stated in one of the pose an income tax for seven years, and how could be feel public departments of that house—he meant the dining- sure that their present prosperity would continue for seven room—(laughter)—by an hon. member, who said he would years? ("Hear, hear,' and cheers.) He would vote for subsequently state it in the house—one of the members for the amendment, believing that a case had been made out King's County, that the bon. member for Mayo was in a and had not been answered. petition to inform them that if the tory government came Mr. WHALLEY took that opportunity to enter his gene back, they would grant a total remission of the annuity tax, ml protest against the income tax, which he described as "a and refrain from laying the income tax on Ire- tax upon the lifeblood of the morality of the middle land. (Loud laughter and ministerial cheers.) Further, that classes." the spirit tax would be settled in the manner originally pro- Mr. AGLIONBY would be found in the same lobby with posed by the noble and learned lord the member for Cole- the hon. member fur Manchester; but he felt bound to ex eunt, and that no additional spirit duty would be levied. press his strongest dissent from the representation which (Continued laughter.) He had only to add that he had that hon. gentleman had made of the present condition of not been influenced by this conversation. He regretted the the farmers. He had no doubt that in time they would be imposition of the income tax upon Ireland, but trusted a prosperous class; but at present, so far as he knew any that it would be levied in the most modified form pos- thing of them, they were not so. He was not equal to his eible. (Hear, hear.) hon. friend the member for Manchester; but he had eyes, Sir R. INGLIS submitted to the house whether the and he could see that farming was not just now so very practice of the hon. member who had just sat down cor- flourishing a trade. responded with his professions, whether he had or had not Mr. BRIGHT—But the hon. member for Dorset (Mr. introduced lobby conversations into their discussions, whe- Henke') does not deny it. thee .such discussions were calculated to raise the house in Mr. AGLIONBY did not care who didn't deny it; he public estimation, and whether representative in- formed his own judgment—(" Hear, hear," and laughter) *cautions throughout Europe might not be pre- —and be supposed it didn't require true to be a county judiced by the manner in which th is, th e member to know something of the farmers. (Laughter.) first of all representative institutions, permitted its Mr. KENDALL stated that is that part of the country beigoeu to be intereupted. (Hear, hear.) He did hope (East Cornwall) with which he was connected, the farmers that the good sense and good feeling of the house, consider- were merely eking out a miserable existence. lug the mass of public business before it, would consider Mr. HUME said there seemed to be great misunderstand -1 that sufficient space had been allowed to gentlemen to set ing about the trade of a farmer. He did not think that any themselves right in the judgment of each other and of the man ought to commeace business withuut a capital. (Hear, house, and that at least public business might be resumed. hear.) The farmer ought to have a capital of 101. to the lie cautiously abstained from alluding to individuals, but acre. Those farmers who had capital might be making a he trusted the house would consider it had had enough of good business by farming, whilst those who had nano this discussion. (Hear, hear.) might be in great distress. Therefore an assessment on half The house them passed to the order of the day. the rent might be less than the one ought to pay and more WAYS AND MEANS. than the other ought to pay. His opinion was that farmers In committee of ways and means, on the second resolu- ought to be taxed like others, on their profits. But there tion on income tar, was &difficulty in doing this, because the farmers kept no Mr. VANSITTART moved to leave out the word accounts. Now, he thought that no one ought to be tole " moiety" and insert the words" third part." The hon. rated in business who could not keep accounts. ("Hear, member, who was most indistinctly beard, was understood hear," and a laugh.) The small farmer, to his own proposition,know stoupwohnicthhewetsuneingterateddsfour the sir re ledge, lief s ray yf thatt he farmers, hs The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could (Hear.) T h d It was the same in all business. hey had ear a ledg mou e' nte h d ad to a su co ff n er fi e s d ent l irm es (iHneateh,ehelret.) few wut yeah t the noon which Peel's proposition to reduce from three-fourths to one-half. was, that they undertook more than they could accomplish. undertook regard to the 200,0001., and who became bankrupt because h e not admit that the hon. gentleman had made out any lately of a contractor who possessed from 100 0001. to case for the change he proposed. With would recollect that since the repeal of the corn laws the in- not think that one-third WAS an adequate amount at which argument of low prices, the honourable gentleman contracts to the extent of 1 , 000 , 0001 . or 1 , 500 , 0001 . He did come tax bad been renewed several times--once in 1818, to assess the farmers, and he should therefore oppose the when prices were low, and the re was a prospect of their amendment. (Hear, hear.) becoming lower; and again in 1851, when the prices of Mr. MALIN S thought that the bon. member for Cock agricultural produce were exceedingly low ; but, notwith- mouth, after his remarks that night, ought to have ers voted standing the state of prices. the tax was renewed as it now for protection, and he could account for his not doing so stood, and the House of Commons and the farmers also, he only on the strength of party feelings. believed, received with satisfaction the settlement effected Sir J. SIIELLEY said the hon. gentleman seemed to by his right hon. friend the present President of the Board put himself forward as a teacher of landlords, hut atter the of Control (Sir C. Wood), who, in the clause he then intro- opinions he had given with respect to capital, he (Sir duced, put the farmers, in regard to the income tax, on a J. Shelley) should he sorry to be in his class. more favourable footing than any other class. He was jus- Mr. 13. STANIIOI'E denied that farmers were M the tified in saying that no class of the community stood in such prosperous condition alleged. a favourable position as the farmers in regard t 3 this tax, Mr. VANSITTART replied. and that of itself was a strong reason for proceeding with The committee then divided— further exceptional legislation in their favour. (Hear.) For the amendment 6O The hon. gentleman said, "Put the English farmer in the Against it same position as the Scotch and Irish farmer." If that The original resolution was then tweed to. were done it would at once afford ground for a fresh appeal ____TAR LEGACY DUTY. to parliament again to alter the law in favour of the farmers of Scotland and of Ireland ; an t, with regard to the Scotch farmer, he must say his case weuld then be irresistible. In the first place, the public burdens which wet a borne in Scotland by the tenant were here borne by the landlord, and constituted a part of the rent. The hon. gentleman seemed to infer that in Scetland the tenant was allowed to deduct these charges, but he (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer) believed he was wrong. At all events they formed a portion of the gross rent on which the farmer was assessed, while the rent on which the English farmer was assessed did not include these burdens. Again, in Scotland, the land, he believed, was more highly cultivated than in this country, but as the rent and cost of cultivation were higher, the farmer had a smaller share in the profit. The hon. gentleman had stated that the f II of rents in England hod not been adequate to the Lill in prices. (Hear, hear.) If that were so, the speech of the hon. smitten= might be regarded as a liberal sag- The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the following resolution That, towards raising the supply granted to her Majesty, the stamp duties payable by law upon or for or in respect of legacies, shall be granted and made payable upon and for every succession to the bene ficial enjoyment of any real or personal estate, or to the receipt of any portion or additional portion of the income or profits thereof, that may take place upon or in conse quence of the death of any person, under whatever title, whether existing or future, such succession may be derived." The resolution having been read from the table, Mr. DISII.AELI thought it would Ire convenient to the committee if the right hon. gentleman would now make his general statement with regard to the preposition of the government. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (11 * tirely concur in the opinion of the right hon. gentleman— (hur, hear)—and I also feel that, considering the greatiar 1.! ti , us so ri at tl