The Express. — London, England, 1847-07-16 00:00:00

BM= ot Ilimobro&R I. the Inbalestlen et • ire Mb the MIK lemereruha mw. passe iteMol . o .6 Millen etas esib=leeeet.—Or bust =II awl ether glom embist sam M e ln dee Ma INA preemie be ea bmeta ls = put MAW el desateenetlips she MIP Ole= ▪ leinillemle et et lessfrealgetted, el the sggifeetbe • lithe Mee tribe tassmrafte onirmsa—ommisimigra 4% REPOMM.—Ommente brim* Me. ; Isnevest Dollies ; RD SEADRKEl.—Cenel=mbe; lel , =; Sew i l ia O. . OEDEMA REVISION COMMITTEE. Sir Sir W. HEATHCOTE moved that the house should lebe Into toesideration the report of this committee. This= weed to the report was gone through, with SOON amendments. Mr. HUME repeated his objections to the preaMae • glowing members locally interested to sit on the menimittem cm private bills other than railway bills, but said be Weald i not now pates his opposition further. After a few weeds from Mr. R. 'Tonna the report was abided. POOR•LAW ADMINISTRATION BILL. On the motion for going to the ort'er of the day on the Consolidated Fund Bill, - Mr. BORTH WICK asked whether, in the event of the Peor-law Administration Bill being returned from the other kensiMith any amendments, 'day would be fired for taking thew into consideration ? Bir 0. GREY named Monday next. Mr. HINDLEY was not satisfied with Oast, but wished to know if ministate would stand by the decision of this seam with regard to the clauses in the bill. Sir 0. GREY said that he could only repeat the mime: he had given on a fanner ocetsion, that when the amend ments of the Lords cams to be considered he would state the coarse that government proposed to pursue. GOVERNMENT ADVANCES FOR IMPROVEMENT OF LAND IN IRELAND. Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN said he understood there had been some delay in making advances to the landed pro prietors of Ireland, from the sum voted by this Imam for each purpoae. Ho wished to know what steps the govern ment had takes, or was taking, with reference thereto. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the motley for this purpose had been voted long ago ; and be was aware of no delay, except in one respect, arising from the misapprehension of the Irish proprietors. The purpose of these advances was to enable them to improve their own estates ; bat, in many cases, they had chosen to do nothing, bat to trait in expectation of a government officer being sent down to do it for them. This was not at all the intention of the act. He was aot aware of any cause for delay in the making of the advances, as soon as the parties applied for them. BALL-CARTRIDGE SHOOTING IN IRELAND. Mr. FRE WEN asked the hon. Secretary for Ireland if he was aware that large bodies of the peasantry, in the counties of Westmeath and Cavan, assembled together on Sundays sad holidays, to practise ball-cartridge shooting ; and if so, wbsetat the government intended to take any steps to pre. veal awe proeseilings ? Mr. LABOUCUERE said he had received no official information of the practice alluded to. He need hardly say, is answer to the second question, that it was not the Luton gem of gmenienent in the present session to introdace any aralserollopin a stop to such practices. Thom magistrates who W imaseal the hon. member of these practices would ban demo well to have laid any complaints they had to make beim Mmesecutive government, if they supposed that these practises portended a breach of the peace ; if any such repro mutation woe made the facts would be inquired into, sad such messuree would be adopted as the government might think nocessar, ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS. Dr. NICHOLL put a question to the right hon. the Home Secretary, with reference to the operation of a bill recently introduced in the other house, for defining and is some de gees limitiest the jurisdiction of the ecclesiastical courts. Sir O. GREY said the bill had been introduced for the removal of certain doubts which had arisen as to the juris diction of thews courts; but it would be better to postpone all consideration of its provisions till the bill itself was under diem/non. THE MILITARY KNIGHTS OF WINDSOR. Mr. B. CABBELL wished to correct a mis-report of his statement on this subject, which had appeared in the Times of that morning; but, The SPEAKER informing him that he could only bring the case before the house as a breach of privilege on the part of the publishers of the paper, The on. lINIMEIER declined to do so. THE NEW DEAN OF MANCHESTER. Mr. faiskeii eked whether the Rer. ►lr e Bowen, who had been recently appointed Dean of Manchester, would be allowed to retain the hying of St. Paul's, Covent-garden ? Lord JOHN RUSSELL said if he had bad longer notice of this question, he might have made inquiry, which would have enabled him to answer it more fully, but he would state all be knew. When he informed the Duke of Bedford that he had recommended to the mown es nominate Mr. Bowers to the deanery of Manchester—knowing his character, and the great satisfaction which he had given to the pa rishioners of St. Paul's, Covent-garden—the Duke of Bedford had stated that he thought Mr. Bowers a very worthy person, but that he greatly regretted the loss which his parishioners would suffer; his gram had asked whether It was necessary that he should immedi ately fill up his place, or whether be might take a short time to consider whom he should recommend to the vacant bene fice ? (Hear.) He (Lord John) had answered that he did act believe the urgency so immediate, but that a short time might be given to select a fit person ; nor did he think there was an h y a itn i iillegal in Mr. Bowers continuing in the charge of his for a short time. (Hear, hear.) After wards, he seen Mr. Ravers, who had spoken of the duties which would devolve on hie successor in St. Paul's, Gwent Garden ; so that there was no question he expected some one to succeed him in that parish. No doubt he Awn to give up that parish as soon as, or perhaps before, the Duke of Bedford had recommended some person to be egpsiWted. Mr. HINDLEY was rejoiced to hear this statement of the noble lord. He believed that prejudice and dimatisfee ties had been excited in Manchester in consequence of the report that Mr. Bowen was to retain his benefice in Lon des; and this statement would greatly increase the favour with which he would be received in Manchester. A better appointment could not have been made. He had known Mr. Bowers ten or twelve years, and was certain that the appointment would be satisfactory, net only to the church, but to the dissenters generally. DETENTION OF SCOTCH MAILS. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE asked " why the mails from the po pious counties of Perth. Forfar, and Aberdeen, were detained at the Inverness Post-office sixteen or seventeen hoer daily, oa their way to the inhabitants in the fishing stations, on the sea-coast of the large counties of Roes, Sutherland, and Caithness, where the people were very sparingly employed, and in great poverty and distress, but which the delays and bed management of the post-office tended to aggravate." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought it very desirable that gentlemea putting notices of questions on the papa., should not introduce so much extraneous matter. He would not take exception to this question, though the statement accompanying it was hardly fair. With regard to the question itself, the bon. gentleman was mistaken in supposing that the letters from Perth were de tained. It was true that the letters for Forfarshire, Aber deenshire, and the places on the eastern coast, were delayed is their progress northward. The reason was this. These letters went by a crose.mail, which joined the north mail ; owing to the acceleration of the north and south malls, from a further extension of railroads, the east and west mails Missed them, and were, comequently, detained natal the next day. He admitted that the parties had just ground of complaint, but, as soon as the necewary arrangements could be made, the delay would be remedied. TRUSTEESHIP OF THE BRITISH MUSEUM. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE complained of the imperfection of some returns recently made to the house on his motion, re specting the trustees of the British Museum. The name, of certain parties recently appointed trustees were omitted; bat he hoped that the inquiry now going on into the man agement of that institution would throw some light on the subject. Sir It. INGLIS said he understood the objection to be that the names of the three principal trustees were omitted; but the law presumed them to be generally known, their ap latent being made by the Lord Chancellor and other high officers of state. r. HUME said the return was evidently imperfect, as the names were required to be stated. After a few words from Lord J. RU156111.7., which were not heard in the gallery, the house went into committee on the CONSOLIDATED FUND BILL. Mr. WORTLRY regretted that the right hon. the Chan cellor of the Exchequer had felt himself bound to withdraw hie proposition respecting the advance to the Argyle Canal Company. He hoped that in the next Session the right hon. earthman would be in a condition to carry that proposal into effect. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the reason why he had withdrawn it was this as it required to be carried forward as something between a private and a public bill, it was impossible to carry it through the honer before the probable end of the nation. As to the merits of the proposition, he entertained still the same opinion that it would be most beneficial to the public, and that it was in no respect deserving of the character given it by its opponents. Mr. R. DENISON wished to call the attention of the boon to the disposition of the funds, amounting to two millions, which had been voted for the purpose of improving waste lands in England and Scotland, as a relief to say diffi culties in which landlords might be involved by the repeal of the corn laws. It had occurred, in the disposal of this fund, that 1,600,0001. had already been devoted to Scotland, so that only 400,0001. remained to be disposed of in England.' The bill then went through committee, the report to be received this day. TREATY WITH THE NETHERLANDS. Lord G. BENTINCK said he had given notice to call the attention of the house to an alleged infraction by the Dutch government of the treaty of commerce contracted in 1824, between Great Britain and the Netherlands, relating to the trade and commerce of the eastern territories of b ot h coun tries. It was admitted that the treaty of 1824 with the Netherlands had been seriously infringed by the treaty be tween Belgium and Holland of 20th August, 1846, whereby • very great injury had been inflicted on the commercial classes of this country. The nerdy of 1824 stipulated that the duties on one goods imported into Holland from the East Indies in British vase's should not exceed double the duty on the sales goods imported in Dutch vessels. By the recent treaty with Belgium goods were imported in Belgian bon onis at the same duty as in Dutch vessels ; and the operation of this treaty was also made retrospective, the duties having been returned for the six months preceding. Coming at the same time as tho reminnon of duties on Bel gian goods, it was peculiarly unfavourable to our commerce. This advantage was not altogether unre stricted, but was confined, in respect to Belgian import', to 8,000 tans. On the articles of sugar, coffee, tallow, hides, camphor, copper, and pepper, the duties on British vessels maw la most seem doable these em Belgian vessels, and in Eimeanoss the disproporties was greater; for on sugar lam there was a duty of d pm lent. on British vessels, la Helen vessels they men bee. He wished to ask the lAN Mid (Palnauton) wham his attention had been magi Is the infraction of this Meaty, whether any remon strances had been made to the government of the Nether lands, and whether there was any prospect of redress being Waal ? irleamt PALIOMISTON said that the matter had been Mill Yes maw the aemdderatioa of the government ; and mu at dm paimat sameat the subject of frequent comma shades mllb lisievensent of the Netherlands, which her gtre gournesist would continue to follow up. It wen y true, assails" by the noble lord, that, by the treaty at 1824 with the Nellerlands, British subjects ware plead ibseing izir em tie of the vent favoured nations. It was also quite doer test, el IS Oil advantages guaranteed to Belgium I by tee NOM teemed to by the noble lord were not endeadel Is desk entirety to British subjects, the stipule , are P' Se *may of 1824 were not fulfilled. Therefore, a Just penal of complaint existed on the part of the British gevaneasea. Bot'he owed it, in fairness to the Netherlands seveemmaa, to state that this demand did not rest on single sail atm& pass& : for, at the same time, there was in &s -eries lofts*" the two governments a counter demand, yid& ball kola semis by the government of the Nether lands in 1146—fended en the treaty of 1831—ss demand to be mighled to the come privileges, with regard to shipping sad nevigaties, as had been granted to Hanover end Meck lenburg - by treaties entered into with those powers. These two counter claims were still the subject of investigation ; and he hoped thlit the j ust and honourable feelings which animated bee Majestys government, and no doubt equally inspired the government of the Netherlands, would ensure the conclusion of this communication upon a footing equally asEdmMfLMr beilk esestries. TREATMENT OP BRITISH MApRIRA.. Sir R. H. INOLIS wished to esk the right hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs if he would consent to lay before the hours certain papers connected with Ike return of Dr. Kelley from Madeira, so em to show the circumstances under which that gentlemen had been expelled from that Wand, and the way in which he had been treated? Viscount PALMERSTON said the subject was one of great importance to British residents abroad, and also one of great &nosey in reference to our relations with foreign go- vernments. Whilst it was the duty of the government to secure the utmost freedom to British residents abroad in the exercise of their religious opinions and professions, yet when these individuals set themselves to proselytise and °onset t the subjects of other nations, then there arose a question of a very different nature from that of the simple protection of the lives, property, commerce, and opinions of British sub jects, and one which involved a just regard . to the feelings and prejudices of the natives of other countries. If a party of Spanish or Portuguese *nits should come ever to this country, and openly practise the conversion of British sub jects to their tenets, the public feeling would be so wounded by =eh a proceeding, that the question would assume a very different character from the mere assertion , on the part of Spain or Portugal, of the right of its subjects to the five and unmo lested exercise of their own forms of belief. The case ad verted to was one of this kind. He had no hesitation in saying that Dr. Kelley and other British subjects in Madeira had bean ill-used, and that compensation was due to them from the government for the outrages and insults they had suffered. Dr. Kelley had been compelled, not by any act of the government, but by the danger to which he was exposed from:plar tumults in Madeira, to quit the Wand. This tumult,' m the Information received, appeared to have been exci by a priest of the island, and not to have been the result of the general feeling. However, Dr. Halley was compelled, for his personal safety, to quit the island. His house had been taken poesession of by the authorities and held by them. A commissioner had been sent from Lisbon to examine into the matter • and the gover nor and the lieutenant-governor had been d ismisse d for their misconduct in the eles... - A trial was instituted of some of I the rioters ; bat the were acquitted, owing to some of the jury with them by family ties or personal p. Since that time, a revolution having taken irrois Madeira, end a junta in connexion with the junta of having been substituted for the regular government, • wernnt bad been issued by the government of List, in against the chief of the rioters, who, when apprehended, would be brought to trial. All Dr. Kalley's property in Madeira had been restored to a person authorised by hint to take possession of it ; still he demanded compensation for the ill-usage of which he complained. He (Viact. Palmerston) had called on him to state the particular grounds and amount of his claim; till that statement was received, no further steps could be taken ; therefore, it would De premature to lay any papers before the house. If, when the legal advisers of the crown were consulted, there were found grounds for compensation, and that was conceded by the Portuguese government, nothing further would be required. As to Dr. Balle's return to Madeira, there was nothing to prevent thatbut his own apprehensions. He, of course, would enjoy there all the protection which the treaties of the crown could afford, and which the influence and rightful demands of the British government could give him—all the protection which the consular officers of the British govern ment could afford. But if he asked him (Viscount Palmer ston) to tell him beforehand, as a prophet, whether, if he returned, and pursued his system of conversion, which was evidently , against the prejudices and feelings of the people, he would be exposed to danger, that was a question which it was totally Impossible for the government at London to answer. He might rely that whatever protection could be afforded beforehand would be granted, and that, if he sus tained any inry, redress would be demanded, which was all that could be - din any beforehand. ProloWda a TAUSTBESIti IIY LiEF On the motion for the third reading of this bill, Mr. J. STEWART said he could not allow it to pass without drawing the attention of the house to a serious ob jection which he entertained to it. By one clause • majority of the trustees were empowered to pay messy into okammey, although the testator had dingle& lot hreadmemt the son , sequence sou, mon t7it .ti os paid io, beiogiometed la Ike duvet per cents., suffered • on in proportion to the depre ciation of that partic ular stock. Thus the **dui pie fr iss! was injured; and had the bill been discussed earlier, he did not believe such a clause would have been allowed to pus. As the matter stood, he would not divide the house. The bill was then read a third time and passed. BISHOPRIC OF MANCHESTER BILL, On the motion that the house do go into committee on this bill, Mr. FREWEN said, that if the dioceses of St. Asaph and Bangor remained separate, as they would if this bill teased, it would estab li sh th e principle that no other small dsooeses should be consolidated. If the act of 1836 we. broken in upon, more bishops and smaller dioceses must be made. If government was not prepared to do this, they ought to abide by the existing arrangement. Three other bishoprics were roorl. In two of these ca, St. Alban's and Bodmin, ed ms and chapter existed. consequently, the principle of comp' crelire could not be maintained. Perhaps it would be Si well to abandon this course altogether, as was done during the Reformation ; and at present nothing of the kind pro. railed in Ireland, the bishops being appointed by letters patent from the Crown. Mr. HUME said, if the government was determined to press this bill, so strong was his objection to it, that he would make use of every form of the house to oppose it. (Hear, hear.) Some time ago, be had asked whether an act of par liament was necessary for this purpose, and learning that it was, he had relied on having ample time for the discussion. Before going into the question, he wished to know what ap plication had been made to government for these additional b•shops —whether . of the i =us districts had applied, t r El mt oil e° 2;B, it had * bees tha ma ? t sb ) ould fe t n he o MOM bishops, per no mom money than 138,0001. applied to episcopal purposes. This bill was an infraction of that solemn agreement with the public. The abolition of the ten bishoprics in Ireland had met with general support ; and on a late proposal to continue the bishopric of Kildare, the noble President of the Council had objected to it, on the ground that it would infringe this compact. Instead of increasing the number of bishops and augmenting their salaries, the revenues of the church should be se allo cated as to give a sufficient income to the poorer incumbents, to cut down the revenue derived from large boneless, and to do away with pluralities altogether. Suck was the prin ciple acted on in Scotland, where no clergyman had an in come of less than 1501. a year, or more than 3001., except, perhaps, in a few inetances, where clergymen in large towns received 5001. per annum. Instead, therefore, of applying the surplus revenues of the church to the increase of the number and salute' of bishops and the adornment of their palaces, such revenues should be appropriated to an equalise, tion of the incomes of the clergy. He had no desire to take any of the revenues of the church from the clergy, but he was most desirous that those revenues should be fairly ap portioned. He urged the propriety of postponing the bill till next session. If the government did not do so, he should oppose the bill in every stage, and he should now move that the committee on this bill be postponed till this day week. Mr. Id. PHILIPS seconded the motion. He thought there bad bean unusual haste in pressing forward this bill, and he should like to know from what quarter the noble lord had received encouragement to bring forward the mea sure ? There was amongst a large body of hie constituents a feeling of the inutility of the measure, and they were opposed to the manner in which the funds of the church were at present distributed. He thought the bill should be withdrawn. Persons of all classes in Manchester were opposed to it. Ha did not believe that the moral and reli gions instruction of the people of Manchester would be pro. moted by the appointment of a bishop, and he was sure it would give rise to great discontent to see a bishop enjoying every luxury whilst thousands were in want of the necessaries He did not think that the noble lord would gain any reputa tion by persevering with this bill from those who usually opposed him. (Hear.) No persons WOW mere active in their canvas. alpine the liberal interest than those who were the most zealous advocates of this measure. (Hear.) If this bill paired, other bishops would be in store for them, and if a Bishop of Manchester was once created he would before many years became a member of the other house of parlia ment. (Hear.) He saw no use, in a moral or religious poiat of view, in the creation of the see of Manchester, and there fore he would join his hon. friend in asking the government not to proceed any farther with the bill. Lord J. RUSSELL mid he could not complain of the opposition mimed to ibis bill by the two hon. gentlemen who had just spoken; but, siaildering that its second reading was carried by a orejoritp of 124 to 15, it was not surprising that he proposed lagomeed with it. He thought that the speeches of both ths hop. gentlemen proceeded on a mis apprehension, for there was no compact by which the bishops were to be kept at a certain number, or by which their re venues were to be 135,0001. But if there was any such com pee on which they could not infringe, it was a compact by which the bishopric of Manchester was to be founded. His bon. friend spoke as if this was a new question ; a hereas a bill passed some ten years ago by which parliament assented to the creation of a bishop of M ,nchester. (Hear, hear.) It could not be said that the bill came by surprise and was her-' rid through parliament; became, on the 12th IPebroary, it was stated in a paper which was laid ea the table of the house, that It would he proposed to keep empeasee themes of Bangor sad St. Aleph, and to create a Whop et Maaeltes ter. From the 12th of February it was notorious, there fore, that a bill would be introduced on the sub ject. With regard to the parochial state at Mar cheater, to which his honourable kiwi aihlii ke tt . was not a matter properly belonging to th . esset aloe. If they proposed to take away as bum the parochial fends, and with it to create a B' Xershas ter, such an argument might be used; but, as the hods foe this purpose cams from the diminution of the revenues of the Me of the Bishop of Durham and the Bishop of Ely, and other bishops whose revenues were reduced by act of parliament, it wee no reason, if they were not applied to the creation of a Bishop of Manchester, why they should be applied to the parochial wants of Manchester rather than to any other part of the country. (Hear.) It would be more natural to apply them to the parochial wants of the see of Durham and the isle of Ely. His hon. friend said that, as dissenter, he could not judge of church questions. In fairness it ought to be allowed that the bishops formed part of the government of the church of England. It was not complete without them. (Hear, hear.) It was, there fore, no more an argument to say you ought not to have more bishops because there are many parochial clergy in want, than it would be to say you ought not to make any more generals by brevet, but give the money to increase the pay of the private soldiers. (Hear, hear.) Bishops were neces sary for the church government in England, and if the diocese of Chester was too large for one bishop, that was an argument for dividing it, and having another bishop in the diocese. The whole question seemed to resolve itself into this, whether the population of the country had not in creased to such an extent, and new towns and new distriete having sprung up, it did not become necessary to have an additional number of bishops. and to see what number should be created, and what revenues they should have? (Hear.) He would not argue the question whether the whole fund for episcopal purposes should be applied to those purposes only, or whether they should be applied to parochial pur poses. That was a question which depended very much on the amount of the episcopal funds. He was far from think ing taut it ought to be sacred. If it was more than sue dent for episcopal purposes it ought to be applied to other church pupates. But that was not a question of principle; but one to be decided by the amount of revenue. The way in which they ought to be applied he hoped the house would show be assenting to this bill. (Hear.) Sir J. GRAHAM said he did not think that house was the place to make a profession of religious faith. The hon. member for Manchester bad candidly stated that he was • dissenter from the church of England ; and his opinions, therefore, in this matter ought to be received with caution and reserve. He (Sir J. Graham) might be permitted to observe that he was • sincere and faithful member of the esta blished church, and, without making any extravagant pro fessions, he was &imposed to think that those who did not make the loudest and most boisterous professions of attachment were generally found the surest and firmest friends of the establishment. (Hear, hear.) He could not support the motion of the bon. member for Cockermouth, on Tuesday, because he rested his opposition to the bill on a question of time. He agreed with the noble lord opposite that there was no surprise in the case—that there was no compact. He believed the subject was ripe for decision, and that it would be injurious to delay it. He was prepared to go into com mittee on tke bill for the purpose of proposing or supporting certain amendments, the fate of which would decide the vote he should give on its future stage. But there were a few points of primary importance which the house should con eider before they entered into a direuesion of the details of the bill. He had the strongest possible opinion that the present amount of property in the hands of the church, whether epis copal, capitular, or parochial, formed the only fund on which, for future chur ch purposes, with regard to spiritual instruc tion in counezion with the Church of England, reliance could be placed. (Hear, hear.) When he considered the unhappy differences which prevailed throughout the Unitid Kingdom on the subject of religion, and the weight which popular influence had on that breach of the legislature, be did not think that taxes could be levied in future from the whole population of the country for the purposes of the established church. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, to him—as a member of the Church of England, thinking that they had now to deal with the distribution of the property of the church, limited in amount, and being so limited, all that was available to meet the growing wants of that church— this question became of vast importance. (Hear, hear.) He concurred with the hon. member for South Lancashire, when he said that the question now to be decided was, whether, on the whole, it was moot for the interest of the Church of England that funds limited in amount should be applied to the endowment of new bishops, or applied to meet the wants of the population at large, in the shape of an augmentation of small livings, and endowing the district churches, which had been recently both, and which depended on the pew rents. (Hear, hear.) If that were the question, he had the gravest doubts whether it would be for the inte rest of the established church that, at the present time and in the present circumstances, they should proceed not only with the endowment of one bishopric, but commit themselves, as this bill appeared to commit them, to the future endow ment of three additional bishops. (Hear, hear.) He very much doubted—the episcopal fund being now kept distinct from the common fond at the disposal of the ecclesiastical commissioners, and on hon. gentlemen proposing to endow sixty suffragans out of it, a certain prelate proposing to endow additional bishoprics in England, and others proposing to endow colonial bishops—whether it would not be better to say at once that the number of bishops would not be increased, and that the distinction between the episcopal fund and the common fund should be abolished and extinguished. (Hear, hear.) Till he became a member of the ecclesiastical commission, he was not aware that this dirtinetion existed as recognised by statute. In the year 1836, the first commission was appointed, and in that year, on the report of that commission, an act of parliament was intro duced dealing with episcopal revenues. That act remained in force till 1840, when an act of parliament, founded on the second report of the ecclesiastical commitaioners, was introduced, which dealt with the property of chapters, and created funds for the purpose of augmenting and endowing small livings. This act (the 3 & 4 Viet., e. 113, s. 90) con tained a clause in these words, " that the former act and this act are to be construed as one act." The effect of these words was, to fuse the episcopal fund and the common fund into one. From 1840 to 1841, the distinction between these funds did not exist, but in the latter year an act was intro duaid to amend the act of 1840, and, at the ead of the clause of sec. 30, it repeated the provisions contained in the words he had cited to the house. (Hear, hear.) No notice being taken of the effect of the words in the ace; of 1840, no attention was drawn to these important weeds in the act of 1841—the complete fusion of the two funds was destroyed, and their separation was in this manner created for the first time. (Hear, hear.) He did not mean to deny that the distinction was recognised in subsequent acts of par liament. Ia the government of which he lately formed a part, this question of departure from the first report of 1836 —this departure—he would not use any stronger term—from the understanding that the bishoprics of St. Aleph and Bangor were to be united, and that a bishop of Manchester was to be created, waediscuased, and those who were then the advisers of her Majesty did not think it expedient to advise her Majesty to depart from that intention. (Hear, hear.) It was now said that the advice given in 1838 was given only by a small portion of the bench of bishops. It was given, however, by the two archbishops, the present Bishop of Lin don and the Bishops of Lincoln and Gloucester. But there were other persons entitled to great respect and attution,who joined in this recommendation. The revered father of the noble Iced who represented Liverpool, than whom he did not know a more sincere friend of the church of England, or a more judicious church reformer—he alluded to the Earl of Har rowby, of whom he spoke with unfeigned respect—signed that report in 1836. (Hear, hear.) Sir Herbert Jeoner, who possessed in an eminent degree the confidence of the Archbishop of Canterbury, signed it. (Hear, hear.) Lord Cottenham, the Marquis of Lansdowne Lord Melbourne and the noble bird opposite Lord J iseinU), who he be: !laved wee aelaated by a siases.dasire to promote the spiritual wailer* et tire emattlithed *arch, Aped it. (Item, bear.) They dietiaelly eameameraded that me addi tion to the totarbar et tobbep Iberia le made, mad that ems the want of a blame et Mearbieter Amid remit martin fled till the union of two sees, theme of Olosember and Bristol and Bangor and Bt. &mph. That report did we re.; main unprodaativ• ead a dead to ; ea the entree', tire most impartial monger maim' ips that report Were taken. The smile dile arm of Gloraerter sad Bridal was carried he. odd. Re would ask, did the Were* of the chore nee Ilem that union. (Hear, hear.) Oct of the 24 bishoprics sad 2 archbishoprics there was not ems, with the exception of those of Winchester, Chichester, and Exeter, the limits of which had not been altered in confor mity with that report. It was contended that the bishops in their respective dioceses had more to attend to than they could perform. That led him to consider what the duties of bishops were. The first duty wee the ordination of priests, sad thin duty was performed in one of the three ember weeks. The next duty was that of visitation and confirma tion. Until lately, this was done once every three years, and inanely dioceses that was still the rule, but where it was perfumed mareardly be did not think, with the presort fa cilities et travellin ai c, that it could be considered an over- Whellall4l labour. Hear, hear.) Then there was the most important deity of , that of holding intercourse with the clergy. He did not expect that many members of the church would concur with him is the opinion he held on this subject, but he was one of those who thought that a daily intercourse between the bishop and the clergy was desirable. He held it was important that the authority of the bishop should be maintained as an appellate authority, and that being obliged to hold discipline over the clergy his authority would be better maintained by cotarattalcattens in writing, than by an intercourse approaching to anythiag that was familiar. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the eon secretion of churches, that bishop was fortunate who was called on to perform that duty three or four times in his life. (Hear, hear.) He was the more confirmed in his views on this point, beanie he saw that these duties were at this moment performed in the most exemplary manner by an archbishop above the age of 80. (Hear, hear.) The duties' of two of the most important sees, those of Salisbury and Bath and Wells, were most exoellently performed by the bro ther of the hon. member for Mahon. He could even conceive over-activity and over-zeal on the part of the bishop with regard to the interests of the church. It might be con cluded from what he had said that he would vote against the farther progress of the bill, but he was not prepared to take that rouse. He considered that the cir cumstances of the diocese of Chester were peculiar, and he was of opinion that, so far from there being a compact that the diocese of Manchester should not be created, the com pact was the other way. He had hoped that when the see of St. Asaph became vacant that the Bishop of Bangor would undertake to perform the duties of both sec; but he declined to do so. And that the erection of the ace of Manchester should be delayed till the lapsing of one of these sees he thought would be inexpedient He could not conceal from himself, that twice in the other house of par. 1 Utmost • proposition kr the creation of the aura Man- ' cheater was carried,amillhottho himileitho abseil of throug sand thole eponvesen (Hear, hue) a rete 11 then. dna OM Maths of the episcopal tail end e cs thad. then vas an available swine oat of the /Mast seas vat fr the emilearellellt of tits we et Moriellse. la pang. In wethi adore to whet Ith trot the agile bed ionothitlf the ofethallo of that had, la whit be laid down a priiim weenneememil le to ha met The lON bed eppentradl te dithibno mold be pal ff hird: ship fa treasheriag the rondo of bidieries te risty other purpose than the endowment ohm bitheriee. That ergo. easst, if pushed to its legitimate extent, would be quite fatal to the whole basis se ties ecalinhatioal comenindoo. He saw `he raise Itird_sblip is *press funds arising from the ODEON& ile the oadewmeat of a cure in Bir- ' or Mosehsehe than fa applying funds arising I from Ib. pr ebeedoto lad dessothe le met the deficiencies aeon miatiadostisel distrist. (nor, brae.) He was no longer le loaintsin the espouglea th a ttle opleopel Poem =mu fund. He thought the tormeem of a portion se the *Omega fond to the use of the cosmos feed was mot deniable ; he at owe advanied the obliteration dell diedathea between do nee hale—(bear, hear)—and he moll strennettaly vain the peeped of soy pledge, direst er laireet, that the imam et Sifter should be increased beyond the biahoprie of Maaelmater. With that view, if the boo went into Metrinittee, It was his in tention to propose that the preesestdo should not be post• poned, and that the words oaatalaing • recognition of the intention declared by her Majesty te endow three additional bishoprics should be struck out. (Hear.) This brought him to • molt important pert of the subject. It had been mid that a changed sircumstanoes would justify a change of purpose with rope* to an augmentation of the number of bishops. He would IA the attention of the house to the reasons reigned in the root of the commission for not recommending an increase. In limed upset, friends of the church—archbishops and Mims Lend Gottenham, Lord Lansdowne, and Lord John Rusell—detolled dream stenoes which still existed in full force, as constituting rea sons why all available resource* should be applied to parochial purposes, and not to the endowment of any additional bishop rics. It mid, " The most prominent of the defects which cripple the energies of the established church, and dream seribe its awfulness, is the want of churches and ministers is the large towns and populous districts. The growth of the po pulation has been so rapid as to outrun every means pommelled by the establishment for meeting its spiritual wants, and the result is that a vast proportion of the people are left destitute of the opportunities of public worship and christian instruc tion, even when every allowance is made for the exertions of those religious bodies which are not fir connexion with the established church." Not to weary the house with details, he would select specimens from four dioceses. There were, the report stated, in the metropolis thirty four parishes and districts containing a population of 1,137,000, with church accommodation for only 101,000. In the diocese of Chester there were thirty.eight parishes and districts, containing a population of 806,000, with church accommodation for only 98,000. In the diocese of York, there were twenty parishes and districts containing a population of 402,000, with church accommoda tion for only 48,000. In the diocese of Lichfield and Coven try, there were sixteen parishes and districts, containing a Population of 236,000, with church accommodation for only 29.000. The summary of the statement was, that there were 108 parishes in four dioceses in England, with a population of 2,380,000, having church accommodation for °sly 276,000. Such was the state of affairs in 1836. Immense and most praiseworthy efforts had been made sines that period to increase the available means of providing church ministen and church accommodation for the destitute poor in the dense muses of the population; but at the same time the population had been increasing, and he spoke advisedly, and on the highest episcopal authority, when he said that all which had been done, in the metropolis and in the manufac turing districts, aided even by the meunre of his right hoc. friend (Sir R. Peel) for extending, with the means of the church, the parishes and districts in the different coun ties fell short of the increase of the population from 1836 down to the present period. All the facts set forth in the report were practically unchanged, and the inference was irresistible, that all the reasons as signed for applying all available funds to the increase of parochial church accommodation, as contradistinguished from the increase of bishoprics, were still valid and in full force. But the report did not stop there. It said, " A com parison between the amount of the population and the church room will nut furnish, by itself, an accurate view of the provision which is made for the spiritual wants of the people, because many of the chapels which contribute to swell the amount of church room have no particular d i strict assigned to them." The commissioners added that they considered the assign ment of a district to each church and chapel necessary to the establishment of pastoral jurisdiction, and to the carrying out of the proper objects of the church. A sounder prin ciple was, he maintained, never laid down. He attached the utmost importance to the existence of a resident pastor, visiting the people daily at their homes, comforting them in their sorrows, aiding and relieving them in sick ness, and winning them by his daily ministrations to partake of his Sunday ministrations. When the people came to the church they should not, he thought, be taxed in the shape of pew rents, but should have free amem to it without any such charge. Such were the principles laid down in the report, and which every sound churchman should wish to maintain ; principles, the maintenance of which was, be contended, far more important than any addition to the number of bishoprics. (Hear, hear.) The report want on to say : " While these evils are the most urgent of all, and meat require the application of an effectual remedy, they are prec isely those for which a remedy can least easily be found . " If parliament obliterated the dis tinction between the episcopal fund and the common fund, all the accumulations of the former fund merged in the latter would be immediately available to meet these evils. The report proceeded ..—‘‘ The resources which the established church possums, and which can properly be made available for that purpose, in whatever way they may be husbanded or distributed, are evidently quite inadequate to the exigencies of the case ; and all that we can hope to do, is gradually to diminish the intensity of the evil." The inten sity of the evil still existed, and they would leave that inten sity unredeemed if they applied the funds of which he had spoken to episcopal, and not to parochial, purposes. (Hear, hear.) Under the peculiar circumstances of the are, he could not but record his assent to the creation of a bishop of Manchester, bat he certainlycould not advance one step further in that direction ; and on going into com mittee it would be his duty to resist any such proposition. (Hear, hear.) There still remained an important question apes which he was anxious to express an opinion. 'Me ob jected to that provision of the bill which contemplated the creation of bishop; with imperfect rights as bishops. (Hear, hear.) He was decidedly of opinion that if any addition were made to the episcopacy, the pre rogative of the crown ought not in each case to be limited, and that all bialoops should have an equal right to sit in the other house. When such principles existed as thou which the hon. member for Manchester had frankly avowed, he thought they could not shake the title of the bench to sit in parliament in a more formidable manner than by en enactment like that to which he alluded. (Hear, hear.) What would happen ? Some energetic, faithful minister would be appointed the bishop of • populous dis trict; he would have no temptation to come to the metropo Its ; his whole time would be dossied a the discharge of hie sacred duties, no call being node upon bin he the exercise of political functions. An invidious somprinia wadi be instituted between the bishop thus Nita. I. end dented to his see, and thus confining hangar to bit 'Mead dodo, and other bishops who were placed in a different position. As if that were not sufficient, the bill secured the drawing of I a most invidious comparison between a bishop when sitting the same bishop when not sitting in the House of Lords. If • bishop went up to parliament, It would be said, it was impossible for him to denote his whole time and resources to the cure of bk see, or to exercise that charity which befitted the ereentel odes; and, as if even that woe net salLdant, a now bad boa introduced depriving maths' we of We niasiry et the right which the elogyntea of these one had den weed thew enjoyed, tfl ip idaf ee zneentled is the Hon of Lee& lob as at thin whit he led jot anatteasi appeared to Ida Imo impolitic Item add that whoa as sea of Dolma end Winchester became vamonit, the Map ethos no told be deprived of their sen to a oat la polio oat Whet wee the ground a exelmiso ? Was it he on account of the eaperier dignity of dose sees ? rga v r, bear.) He should that It was ; for Hit were not, then was there epuiatfon in the exclusion. (Hear, hear.) But if that were not the ground he would ask why were not the dioceses of Bider and Carlisle es much entitled to exemption as any othrr ? He could imagine no defence on principle for suck an arrangement, and he foresaw that every pyoossuiible disadvantage would attend it. Let net the house, then. limit the prerogative of the crown; let themtake their stand and declare that they would not, the bench— (cheers) consent to any further addition to rs) ; above all, when the hon. member for Manchester told them that he was desirous of seeing tho bishops, one and all, re moved from the House of Lords, let them not take a step which, is Iris (Bir J. Graham's) judgment would have • deeded tendency to shake the title of the bishops to their seats in the other house of parliament. (" Hear," and amen.) It was said that the discipline of the bishops over the clergy was, owing to the inadequacy of their numbers, incomplete. That circumstance was not overlooked in the admirable re port to which he had referred. That report contemplated the maintenance and even the enlargement of the discipline. How ? Not by multiplying the number of bishops, but in their respective dioceses adding to their efficiency by means of archdeacons and rural deans. The report also pointed out the means by which that might be done. He was sorry to have detained the house so long. His course was plain. Anything like a factions opposition to the bill he would strenuously resist. He thought that the bia mooted a principle dangerous to the church, and that no time ought to be lost in taking the opinion of the representatives of the people with respect to the course to be pursued. (Cheers.) He was quite prepared to propose in committee, to exclude from the preamble the words which gave an implied pledge that an additional number of bishops, beyond the Bishop of Man cheater, should be created, and he would also propose to strike out the second clause of this bill. Parliament would thus be asked to negative all those aspirations which had been formed for a larger—an indeflnite—number of bishops. ("Hear," and laughter.) The hon. member for the Unirersity of Oxford (continued the right hon. gentleman), whom I am sorry not now to see in his place, has commended the noble lord at the head of the present government, at the expertse of the antecedent government, as if he were a better friend of the church than we could boast of being, Now, sir, it is not always friends, who are the most compliant, who are the most judicious and sincere. (Hear, hear.) Requests are often injudiciously made by the members of a profeesiot, which, if conceded, are found to have been fatal to those who preferred them ; and I believe that this is an instance of that kind. I know that the heads of the church generally, If not unanimously, desire this augmentation of their ember. I feel, and feel strongly, that it is not additional ornament for the temple that we re quire, but beltausses to sustain it. (Hem, hear.) I fear that this augmentation of the episcopacy will excite the jealousy, And inflame the anknoitity, 'ef that dissenting body which looks mem the shwa with an evil eye. (Hear, hear.) As a eiturehinan, I Ma from the hue. member lee Montrose whoa he states theta's& pesperty le gabble property in the seam in which he employs the Seer& 1 elealler it he bathe at of pious ma in each tims, set ern to the mow at that Mi r whistle moseletel with the state. I would sit ohmage of see ihethieg of it ; but I think that, se st= ia • etrchetelt, I ea entitled, in my loglektive equity, I. look at the whole question, and to vote he the eperetekties of the elturelea revenue., limited in amesat, in the Ammer which I think most likely to do good to the whole body. (Hear, hear.) lam deeply, honestly, and sincerely convinced that en appropriation of those re venues to an increase of the number of bishops beyond the addition of the Bishop of Manchester, would bee most int• prudent and improper appropriation ; and certainly I shall not fa' on this occasion to give effect to my sentiments in the manner most likely to be effectual—namely, by . voting for going into committee, and in committee proposing the alterations which I have stated. (Cheers.) Mr. ACLAND was glad that they now knew on what ground the late government had proceeded as re garded the church of England. (Hear, hear.) The laity of England had loooked fairly at this question, and would rather have additional bishops without seats in the House of Lords than lose the benefits of such en addition. The state, after all, gained more than the church by the legislative aqsacity of bishops. As the country was now divided on religious subjects, be did not thick it desirable to ask for • grant of public money for the exercise of spiritual func tions, but he hoped to see the day when all would unite for the same end. Sir W. MOLESWORTH regretted exceedingly that the Prime Minister would not content to withdraw this mea sure. It raised questions too serious to be discussed at this period of the session. It raised questions as to the extent of spiritual destitution, and how it ought to be relieved. It raised questions, too, as to whether we ought to add to the pomp and pride of tke hierarchy without assisting the working clergy. The right hon. baronet had shown that the labours of the hierarchy were not overwhelming. What good reason had been given for augmenting their number ? If their duties were too burdensome, release them of those which appertained to parliament. It was his opinion that bishops could not be both good bishops and good legislators, and that it would be better to release them altogether front their seats in the House of Lords. MILNES received the concession made by the government in this bill with the greatest satisfaction. If the question was before them whether the episcopacy or clergy were to be increased, he might take a different view ; but that was not the point now to be deeded. The creation of • bishopric of Manchester had ben recommended for a long time. It was well known that the Bishop of Chester had far too many duties to perform; and he could see no reason why that right rev. prelate should not be relieved. With respect to the seats of bishops in the House of Lords, he owned he essuld see no good reason for not adding a few to the existing number. Mr. E. DENISON expressed surprise at the speech of Sir J. Graham, who was the very member of the government of the day who objected to all inquiries respecting the ecclesiastical commission. Why had not the right hon. baronet himself, when a minister of the crown, arranged for the amalgama tion of the episcopal and common funds ? Why had he per mitted so large an amount to be spent in his time upon the erectlea of palaces ? lie could not but feel some doubt whether they should have heard any of these strong opinions if it had not been for the committee recently appointed upon this subject. Viscount SANDON could not lose this opportunity of en tering his solemn protest against the views respecting the episcopacy expressed by the right hon. baronet. He could not regard the prelates of the church as a sort of chief clerks or calculating machines. Could it be possible that that right hon. baronet believed a christian bishop had nothing else to do than spend so many hours in consecrating churches, con firming, and ordaining ? In his (Lord &Loden's) diocese, it was very different. There the bishop was the friend and counsellor on all occasions. Talk of a consecration : why, could the right honourable baronet realise the labours of a bishop connected with that church which was the subject of consecration ? Look at the correspondence of a bishop. Few statesmen in that house had • larger epistolary correspondence to conduct. Look at the diocese of London. At the next vacancy in the see of Winchester it would contain not less than 2,000,000 inha bitants. What labour must not be thrown on the prelate of that diocese. For his own part, he desired to see bishops not merely great state functionaries, but the fathers of the clergy, and the originators of every great and good measure. He should be satisfied with no episcopacy that did not in crease with an increasing population. We did not treat our army as we treated the church. The larger the army, the more the generals i but with respect to the church, we let it increase for centuries, without increasing the bishops. He did hail the proposition before them as the beginning of better things. He cared little whether or not the new bishops had mate in the House of Lords. He thought it a delusion. that a man could not be • bishop unless he were a temporal peer. Mr. NEWDEGATE hailed the measure with gratitude, and deprecated the manner in which the right hon. ni tu ber for Dorchester had spoken of the appointment of a bishop for Manchester. . _ Lord CLIVE supported the bill. Mr. HORSMAN said that he had not suggested the sup pression of deans, but merely a modification of their revenues, and of those of the canonries, which would leave 100,8801. a year applicable' to effective church purposes. He also denied that he had proposed the institution of sixty new bishoprics. He viewed this measure with much alarm, and be considered the pressing it forward at this period of the session meet injudicious, and he still trusted that it would be p os tponed till next session. Mr. GOULBURN expressed his belief that if the measure were deferred until next session, as suggested by some hon. members, and even if a more extended measure were pro posed, the tame objections would be offered as towards the limited bill then before the house. For this reason, his advice was, that the government should proceed with the bill. (Hear, herr.) He felt all the objections which bed been urged against bishops not having seats in the House of Lords ; but still, under all the circumstances, he felt bound to support the government measure. The question was, whe ther they should have a bishop in Manchester or not, and he was inclined to answer decidedly in the affirmative. In coming to that conclusion he was actuated by feelings far different from those of such her. somber* as considered the office of bishop a mere ornamented appendsge to the church. There were in his mind mat merlons and Inaportaat duties attached to the odic*. It was the duty Ma blimp to be intbnately ac quainted with the character of every peeeskial clergyman in his diocese, and to be ready on all emessions to give his ad vice on questions of doctrine or discipline. Ho admitted that it was not unnatural for dissenters to feel some jealousy of any measure which went to increase the power of the church, but he thought it was a little un fair when they were not called upon to supply the funds, or to make any sacrifice of their In dividual opinions, that they should take any active steps to obstruct a measure which was necessary for the dis cipline and efficiency of the established church. The bill before the house, in addition to the bishopric of Manchester, proposed to provide for the establishment of future sees, when sufficient fonds had accumulated in the hands of the ecclesiastical commission. If he had had the conduct of the bill,he would ban confined it to the bishopric of Man chester. (Hear, hear.) Not that he did not admit the necessity of increasing the number of bishoprics, tent because he thought it would have been better to erellme the imme diate measure to its immediate objects, and to leave future bishoprics to a future bill. (Hear, hear.) Haag thee stated his opinion, he felt bound, under all the climate's's., to support the government measure. (Hear, hear.) Mr. B. ESCOTT fully concurred with hon. -sale: se to the importance of the present measure. One of die main alimnisete to the merest re was, that a compaiet "Ada bed been interei Ww bad been beam. New via wee the Ranee alb* ampeet t It we that a bieleple et Um elusion should be areatei me soilitios that the tee rose of Saner and Et. neap\ awl& be imbed. net ampeet bed ban made when the Aga brim gentleman (lit. Gestlbuni) was aniaider, and yet he now elm helm& to a bill kir gresaistg the new bishopric, while as sees of and Bt Ranh _remained disunited; sad net only that, but it was *team* else In die }enable, sad Ike right hon. gen tleman IMisportsil the prepeettioe, that three other new bishopricsshould be eetablished bereelem It was all very well to say that the dissenters were set interested in this matter, and had ne right to interfere. But those who used that argument were the worst friends of the church, and those were the best friends of the church who stood up against the position now taken by the right hon. gentleman. But there was another compact still more important—en implied compact—between the paths meat and the country, when the eoclesistical commission was first setablished—vis, that the funds which accrued to that - eases;ja;nWealsi TM &voted to increase the means of pro Tiding reffigkms thethwelier it the people, and for augment ing smell ethee end bemethes. 'That was the object for which that comethelea was appointed, not the increase of bishoprics. its maid undertake to say that, if the whole body of the erecting elergy were polled, 9-10ths of them would be found oppoNd to this increase in the number of bishoprics. And, la this respect, the feeling of the laity per. hotly eohmikial with that oldie working clergy.lfit were not so, how sit Net there were no Petitiol3l in favour of this measure either him the aura or the people. The govern• ment would not be able to cam the bill, and he called upon them to withdraw it. lie reminded them of the soccer of the opposition of a few determined members to the Irish Arms Bill, which, after it had been lost, the lord-lieutenant declared he could do better without than with it, and in the same way the church would be benefited rather than injured by the defeat of this bill. Mr. WYNN had joined in the recommendation of the commission for uniting the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor, with the view of increasing the efficiency of the church, in that part of Wales, by devoting the !surplus revenues to the increase of the incomes of the poorer clergy, and the establishment of additional churches. Although dissent existed in Wales to a greater extent than he wished, it was by no means so prevalent as had been supposed. Many persons who were not dissenters were driven to attend dis• senten' meeting houses, in consequence of the great dis Mace of the parish churches. If a new bishop were appointed, he agreed with his right bon. friend that he ought to posses all the attributes of the offioe ; but he did not look upon a seat in the House of Lords as a necessary attribute; and while there were • sufficient number of bishops in the House of Lords to watch over the interests of the church, he could not consider that the fact of the proposed new bishop not having • seat, was any suffi cient objection to the bill. Ile regretted the introduction of the words in the preamble which pledged parliament to the s creation of three other new bishops. Not that he ;knew to that increase, but he thought that was a subject o!sas, tient importance to be considered by itself. With rega.,!,. the opinion of the clergy and laity to which the hon. malts* tha u(lkini t ro.n i Ele. t ° w r j o hit ald t)twb s l t d ri amea k ft e re i rre b an l d e d w . iit to t wiad t u he bg eZure n u h rlig to yedad tak byT e ethri a e rr e a fto y: of the bishoprics, which eould not be compenaated by a... - improvement in the condition of the poorer clergy from the surplus revenues. Luc year 230 petitions had bee; presented against the proposed union—the majority of t.,. from the dioceses which it was intend e d t o unite. p. thought it was of importance to prevent the union of the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor. He should support the no. Lion for the bill going into committee. Bir R H. INOLIS said his hon. and learned friend, ta member for Winchester (Mr. B. Escott), was " alP,thing a by turns and nothing long." (Much laughter.) He had ...a of this, as of other measures, that it was the most ins po,s motion of the session —(renewed laughter)—and no osa would conceive that, on a proposition to create three West Indian bishoprics instead of two, the hon. and learned ge l . demon had voted for the larger number. (Hear, ) He had not Intended to address the house on that occasion, but, after the speech of the right hon. member for 80.. cheater (Sir J. Graham), he felt bound to do so. That hoe • gentleman said the church most look to its own rescuers_ to ita own parochial funds—but he did not alwa n hold that the state ought to be indifferent to the religion education of the people ; for it did so happen th a t h e one , acted as if he thought differently ; and it would be found that on the 15th July, 1840, he was willing to pledge himself to a I resolution that no altered distribution of the revenues of the church could remove the evil arising from the fact, th at addition of 6,000,000 souls had been made to the populatic a since the commencement of the present century, and the ter. solution proceeded to pledge the house to adopt any measure which her Majesty might recommend for more effectual providing for the spiritual wants of the people. (s r. hear, and laughter.) The speech of the hen. manila/ for Montrose, who was always opposed to tie in these matters, was one which had been ohm heard from him—a stereotyped speech, which many h oc members no doubt could repeat. (Loughter.) The n e member had delivered himself of nearly the same hun t ., on the 30th ofJune. 1811. (Laughter.) With referen t , to the observation which had been made upon the bishops g contrasted with the working clergy, he could only say he knew bishop* who worked as much as any curaten. Ba believed no individual, lay or spiritual, within his die m , devoted more time to the good of his fellow.creatures ton the Bishop of Chester. (Hear, hear.) And upon another point which had been adverted to, he might remark the that right reverend prelate had stated that *berm ten years ago, in Lancashire, the proportion of cler gymen n the population was as one to 4,500 ; it was now one to 3,000, It had been said there were no petitions in favour of the bill; why there had been petitioas from every part of the toothy against the union of the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor, sod many of those petition were also in favour of the see bithoprie of Manchester. (Hear, hear.) He was rejoice that there was now to be a substantive enactment for the creation of that bishopric, and he was also glad to find the the preamble of the bill shadowed forth other measures equally important for the superintendence of the church by her constituted and legitimate authorities. ( Ilea, , beso Reserving to himself the right to amend the bill when is committee, he should give his support to the motion, that the Speaker do now leave the chair. Mr. J. S. WORTLEY said the right hon. baronet (Sixl Graham) had anticipated the remarks he bud intended u offer to the house in support of the several amendments d which he (Mr. J. 8. Wortley) had given notice. He WS, however, observe that if the preamble of the bit had ben silent as to the creation of other bishops except the Bahopd Manchester, all difficulty would have been avoided. Ts that part of the bill which created the new see of Manchester be had no hesitation in eiving his sap. port, but he objected to the provision which would hoe the effect of excluding the individual appointed to them from n seat in the House of Peets until by rotation he anal be called upon io take his place in that assembly. The rots lion system which the bill would introduce would place th e bishops in a most invidious position, and to such an amass assent he wholly dissented. It compromised the rights aide episcopacy, and involved an infringement of the emana tional prerogative of the Crown. On this point, therein he felt great difficulty in supporting the measure as proceed in its present form by the noble lord at the head of the r vernment. Further than this, the bill contained no primes for the erection of an ecclesiastical court in the new dimes proposed to be created. In that respect he desired to knee what was intended, for the creation of n bishopric implied the right of that bishop to hold a spiritual court within thenrit diction assigned to him; but on this the measure was sint In the first pine no provision was made for their stens Lion. Their authority extended over the whole of then"► tree, but it might be extinguished at any moment by at hand that conferred it. He did not mean to make any sig gestion on this subject in committee, but be (It that tb matter was well worthy of the attention of the g L overenen If the alterations in the bill were made such as he sunreati he would be willing to support it, but otherwise he mil give the third reading his opposition. Mr. B. OSBORNE thought that the right hon. gentlest the member for Dorchester had approved himself on till occasion a true friend of the established church. The goes tioo •••••• how eke riaa•plus ro•osoo• of th• rhlvrrb man applied most advantageously for the church. Ile thos• that the church would be best served by applying the own to parochial purposes. He thought that the right ham able gentleman proved himselt on this occasion a ow friend of the church than the noble lord, who men not apply them to these purposes, but to the cm Lion of new bishoprics. The honourable gentleman de member f.r West Somereetshire talked of the 'pentane action of the church; but many persons out of that hem looked upon what he meant as the spontaneous action doh church as its spontaneous combustion. (Laughter.) was surprised that this bill should have proceeded from present government. He commiserated the position noble lord ' • became, being desirous of adding the charms of a church reformer to his other titles, he thought it * that he would become a martyr in the City of London! which he was a candidate. They would look there on this Id with suspicion. (Hear.) He would not be surprised tome bishop tacked to every new railway boil in future • for, in the Church of England en inch and she would aka an He would give his utmost opposition to the progress di measure. (Hear.) Mr. T. DUNCOMBE could not undimmed the *Hew the government on the present occasion, except on the isr position that they were eshamed of the bill. Lord J. RUSSELL said he had spoken. Mr. DUNCOMBE.—Yes ; the noble lord had epobs, but he was not the whole government. (Hear, hear.) I arrangement had been entered into its 1838 on this satin which the noble lord was now violating. He had no Oil to feel angry that the people of Manchester considered ohm selves insulted by this bill. On a former occasion Aiwa lord was told that he was the unconscious fowl sitting ie crocodile's egg. (Laughter.) The noble lord was now hanlig three more new bishoprics. (Laughter.) He had received cm munications on this subject from the working clergy. (half ter.) [The hoe, gentleman then reed a letter from a citrons in W ales in opposition to the bill, and characterising Amain of injustice to appropriate so much of the church heel such purposes, whsle he, with a parish population had only 1301. a year, which his necessary chortle eqol reduced to 1001., he having a wife and five children.] -11 , (Mr. Duncombe) objected to the bill, on the ground di patronage it gave the government. They had bad paha. enough. They bad appointed one commissioner oinfllnfli poor-law commissioners-- Sir G. GREY: Three colliery inspectors prepseedtg Ith (Laughter.) Mr. DUNCOMBE proposed colliery inspeetert,llo B they were to be protected of human life and be nag, di; additional bishops would be of no use at all, which item the difference. The hon. member concluded by lAN his intention to oppose the bill at every stage. Mr. AGLIONBY opposed the bill, and thought Intl should not be pressed this session. The hon. gentling' . atanced cases in his own neighbourhood, in CamiiMM where clergymen served parishes on stipends of 701.1 1 1 4 _, the tithes of the parish being received by the Din og Chapter of Carlisle; and, instead of such persons Idol their incomes jar:ceased out of the ecclegiastical fwd. Ng bishoprics with large revenues were created. cal.. M ed r. rea J li . c.b.,, C t O th L i. L . E inis .d wha di t e to th mak e co e un of t s :i rtT : wi hi g adre th li Pe ;,no w Ptedneo b n le bPi e lligro c o b rd wa ish htmt ha d o f p. orw f :rdas i n ds m d d e rl7.l) :: pisi T tonsed miwilliiiii i i the confederate of the Bishop of London. Sock a WOO should only have been brought forward by the piety 0 1 ' netted with the noble lord the member for Lynn. The house divided—For the amendment SI Against it dr Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said that the vote which theism' , had come to was disgraeehtl to a Whig &amnia.' (" Order, order," "Chair, chair.") thbere T unii he uigug S t r t E r, iii r : thit ß oe sai uideocb tl, jt hn a i t mo h r o tht w oe e e ve h.op r wer. mac i h ht r th r e miircesemy ltem leer had done. Whi Hr g . sd T. za Dy i.t. NCO ti M o. l3 ... E re . pes ee tel ed his to the starving poor, and espoially to the dimintme. ( 4 11 T, hear.) There was a twilimme &bees& doe Roman Catholic body bad been ebeeleri by tbe peoo. endowments for itself, semi be gibbed tabor free lord whether the mom onee well Iberia ( i H nw e thought nuptad h t i lz ehmad ben. msmalon iziphig we to S ta:dietk v „t00 , a0 7 1114 ,bi l ill wee The ken. =ember esselegel by Nimbi fa statement, T b es Iw o O w l the debate. thu oeLord...thates he ..0 ( E Ln N tl T " S htt nc i i r d . i t t te w . u pt w w ith inwi the err ° a l uon lard tothi. J. R.U.SSEreL.L (Hear, 11 : bad th maj ey oran s i h t o yop ul oP: d :t g 3B o uni in t: tr 4 co , h m o:i mi l:l7 ttee rengd , w i a: ro hße _f guNalchsratUrl orod adMietilli P th: •t it th. 100 11.11.1.11111111r---1 111 was be to hurry on the measure. but the hem . or is Finsbury falling into a great passion with - th him, and in 'quibbling and ',wave manner -7- kor Mr. B. OSBORNE rose to order. He "L'.' agag if it was not disorderly, even on the part of • Ow "" to say that an hon. member had quibbled ? The SPEAKER—Nothing irregular whale from the noble lord. (Cheers.) w tr. oi . Lord J. RUSSELL only wished to oh o •• which the bill was opposed, by showing that . ! . , '! bar for Finsbury, on the eve of a Fenere lb="411 as disgraceful to a liberal administration a_eril=oo was supported by a majority of 133 to 20. _7 h :rm. of the bill had not been spokes 11 8• 101, 2"1. government had deemed it unnesmsery ons rr debate. He should not oppose the motton ot . tr, de w her for adjourning the debate ; and . o nly to observe the spirit in which that motion wee tow. THE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EVENING, JULY 16, 1847. j