The Express. — London, England, 1847-04-20 00:00:00

,T - J Ettß*S i TUESDAY Qi12:112 - - 1.4 afforded you the opportunity, as far as in as lay, of that knowledge which should lest you to virtue and es re spectability, and it does not lid at our doors that pm - hem yielded to temptations and followed the paths of priess.'• (Cheers) Such is one of the more general objectless es tai &tempt for the further edueeticn of the people. Them ash hewever, other objections of a more specific kind with sagged to the particular plan now before the house ; and with regard to some of those objections I than be obliged fo, say, that I think myself there in great force iu them-41mm, kear)—but that, upon the whole, we have proposed that whim we thought most practical— (hear, hear)—that which we thought would be most generally acceptable, and that, II we have not done more and better, it is to be considered that the ground was in a great degree occupied by those various societies which, according to their various opinions, have covered the field of education, and in their own way esta bibbed systems ler themselves. (Hear, hear.) This sem sideration is ose of the utmost importance. I cannot but think that at the commencement of this century, it would have been desirable that, instead of various parties and various schemes of education, there had been some serious attempt made to reunite the various clauses of die-enters and members of the established church in the same school. (Hear, hear.) I will not say how that should be done. For my own part, being a mem ber of the British and Foreign School Society, I should be of opinion that the plan proposed by the late Duke of Kent to the Archbishop of Canterbury, that all should meet on the common ground of daily reading the Bible, and that instruction in the liturgy and catechism of the various churchesshould be begun at different hours, was one which, if carried into execution, would have led teen united education. Different opinions may be entertained on this subject, but the question which we have to deal with is the great amount of schools, and the great amount of money which is given from year to year in support of schools already estab lished. The first of these, m point of numbers, is the Na tional Society in menu item with the Church of England. They profess that in their schools there are more than 900,000 daily scholars, and their amount of funds is very Barge. Their rule is, that in all their schools the liturgy endow*. chitin of the Church of England shall be taught. They had Lkewhe inserted that all the children should go to the estab lished data on the Sabbath. They have now relaxed with roped te that rule, and they leave the matter in the handsof the amnsgers of these schools. But with regard to the ether rules, we had to consider in 1839, and at the present time, we had to consider whether we should have attempted to spread over the country some general system which did not agree with their schools, which did not agree with the British and Foreign Society's Schools, or any one of the dis senting sects, but which, ill our opinion, would be preferable to anyoue of the a. We are of opinion that it would bsee been objectionable to make the attempt in 1839, or now. Practi cally, such an attempt would lead to division, end in failure, and we should not have advanced but retsrJed education by It. Well, then, we said, as in 1839, that with regard to the church schools, they should act accerding to their own views, and that we would nut interfere with the reli. glees Instruction in their schools in any other way than con senting to the propositious made by the heads of the church, sisighat inspectors should be appointed by the corimittee of the Privy Council, to be approved of by the archbishop, for the purpose of tinting the schools, and reporting to us with ' impact to the secular and religious instruction given. With regard toother schools, wo mated that we would not make any inquiries with respect to the religious instruction gine. la them; but that with regard to the secular par: of educw tion, we should require the inspectors to report to won the state of the school-. Now, the rule which we adopted in 1839 with regard to tile building ofechools we adopt now with regard to the education of public teachers. With regard to pupil teachers and stipendiary monitors, we cause them tobe'ex &mined, for the church schools, by inspectors, in the bible, the church catechism, tad liturgy. With regard to those schools not connected with the church of England, we pro pose no examination of this kind, confining our examune tier' to seedier branches of learning. It seems to me exceed ingly strange that some who agree with me in what I have hitherto stated, that education ought to receive some eminence from the state by grant of the public money— that it is not aweigh to say that voluntary efforts are sufficient that the state of crime calls for some efforts on the part of parliament, yet think that these rules contain such a violation of liberty of conscience that they could not assist in or partake of a grant proceeding from such a source. Yet these are the same parties, /A fir as I can understand, who since 1839 have consented that schools should be built in the proportion of 18s. 6d. or IBs. 941. in every pound for church of . England schools, knowing that these would be schools in which the liturgy and catechism of the church would be taught, and that the inspectors would examine as to the religious attainments of the children. (Hear, beer.) I own I cannot wider stand the very nice distinction between consenting to the building of these *climbs and refusing to consent to the payment of the stip. ndiary monitors and pupil teachers. It is a refinement of 4i.lielation which I cannot understand; for, be it remembered that there is no question now of the church undertaking the education of the whole people, and claiming for itself the right of educating the people accord ing to the established religion of the state. (Hear, hear.) AU that the church aria, or rather consents to take, is. that in Church of England schools—schools built by the sub scription, of the members of that church—the liturgy and catechise of the church shall be taught; while, in all other wheels belonging to the dissenters, there is to he se ingseeltion of any catechism or formulary whatever. lOnelliteek seems to me that this, so far from being a secu rities'', scheme, give. the utmost religioas liberty, and ought fay to satisfy the diameters. it they make ooniinensurate exertions they may obtain I. mush as any others of this greet (Hear, hear.) But if the church aubecribes a much er sum, then a greater proportion will be given to re them; but this is not a di ff ence of principle, but a difference of amount with equale yof principle. (Hear, bear.) It is to be observed that this is not what it is carefully repreetested to be in some quarters—a whole system of education imposed by the state. (Hear, hear, hear.) It is a system coming in aid of voluntary exertions (Hey, hear.) We take the 'mesas which the people furnish; we find schools in existence and we come 111 aid of Mow schools, begun and continued by the people. We:heroes no terms on say school, so that to say, as has been reproseie ted, that the state cannot with advantage undertake the educa tion of the people, ie an objection , good or bed, ageinst Some other abeam, but 10 ninineedtin to that now under Masi derider. (Hear, hear.)' it is said that some other scheme of ethiention would be much better, that it would be touch Meter for the state to confine itself solely to moular °dune lion, and that with regard to religious knowledge the km* oven to have no cognizinie whatever. ("Meer, how," boil Mr. Roebuek.) No* those who urged this proposition j mesh, I think, two very different things. As her en I tian understand Dr. Vaughan, and thaw who think with him ' he has no objection to education by the state--no objettion to the state coming "in aid of voluntary societies, of the church societies', or eny of the dissenting societies' wheals; but objects to the inspectors of the state taking any notice of the religious instruction given in those schools. I own it appears to me that, for the sake of • very nice distinction, thee is to do very nearly the same as we now propose browse it is obvious the national wheals, the Wesleyan schools, others, would continue to teach their ceechism and • darks as they now do; and if govern- ' meet Mapleton, appointed with the consent and con currence of those Mastics, made no observations with !egad to religiois` Instruction, it is obvious Mom societies would apppint their own inspectors, to be paid from their own funds, that the teething would be the same, and the same amount of state assistance would be given. Therefore this is for the sake of some apparent painci ple, making.a distinction in which I can see no difference. But there are others who. speak of secular education, and who mean a differeat thing. What they mean in that there should be schools rstablisheil by the state us which secular education onlyehould be given, in which the secular limiter should be, what we do not propose to make him, a state lotflose ; that the state should be the great teacher in respect of secular knowledge; and that with regard to religious instructioo it should be a matter in which the school master should bare no . concern, and should be left to the ministers of the different penuanoos Now, sir, this, I think, was brought forward by the boo and learned member fur Bath some years ago. To such a I scheme I entertain the most decided objections. (Cheers.) I think myself that that would be for the state to take cern,- lan" Inachoohi set up by itself, of only onehalf, and that we semi Important half, of what was taught to the children in the school*. (Cheers.) I think that to omit altogether the lova of God and the love of oar neighbour es a part of the wheel teaching, would be a grave, a serious, and an irre parable course ; I thiek that ao advantage which might be poised by uniting different sects could fee that apparent declaration by the state that secular lerkeakri Ind secular learning only, was that in whisk it luoi my ammo wr took any interest. I think far e seppiphsh! is at objection, which stands the MA i to be overruled, yet emetically ? the .f the working cams of thm country, end. he the time of the children must be occupied wonsisteringiikeerbe how the time of the teachers of religion is, and meat be, occupied, you could nut obtain in that way a sullbaleut amount of religious instruction. I bold, therefore,.that both in principle and in practice, such w scheme would be objectionable. I think, moreover. that even if seek • scheme had is my eyes greater advantages, it would mein acceptable to parliament, and far loss would it be assept able to the people, of this country. I think they would bete confound the omission of religion, and the d that religion was to be left to its ministers, with irreligion ANIL They would certainly be wrong in their interpretation of she intention, but still there would be the feeling whisk I bars intimated, and I thiuk that that feeling woad be se Weep .as to overpower, and pat an end to, mg esimme pro pmed on such a. foundation. (Hoar bear.) Well, them, dr, if what we propose he. istaini on what :is now est ablished ; if it be isapmeihie be. ea to propose B l ether scheme which *mid, am* es to asn_.pfeasal. into effect a mastoid focedssathet l floo Dr. Yamaha, ,it would be useless to peeps= sop 4slAfa lissom it would be sure to fail, the ipmetlin whisk= to ask such mein as Dr. Vaughan aallebee which I have t• ask this house, is, whethei, those to be , the hots, they are prep ared to pa olitt min allow se a grant of this sum of money, to itiorpai et , T . the minutes of council, or .whithei Ow •wt I to ntuits that grant, and, with the betAggmlleMelethe her for Finsbury, to pass a vote of OSUMI epsa is ter even pro I roning such a scheme. (" Hear, bar, lien Mr. T. Dun a comb.) Sir, that is the effect of the assakin of which the hon. gentleman has given entice. (Hear, hear.) Before I ask the house &ally to cylinder that question, I must maim one or two other points which have been raised both in this house and out of doors, with respect to other omissions in this scheme. It has-been- asked, whether we puerne that any part of this grant should go to Roman Catholics. (Hear.) Now, with respect to that sultjt et, 1 may say that in the minutes of August and Diveuttlier, IS-16, that question never came under dasconion. According to our view the question did not arise upon those minutes. There wire At • subsequent period, Leal Wharnehire informed the 1 cated, or if not Ito completely educated at present as they ' secretary of that mon society that so farthe appointment of ought to be, they are In the way of being so completely inspectors was counted, ks should and pt the s ime rule educated that it were • surperhuous care in the ktoslature with regard to that manly as with reference to the National Ito endeavour to assist s cans. already so perfect" I wish I Society : and be would aft appoint any inepeo without could agree In that representation . (Hear, hear.) 1 wish 1 their concurrence. Tbe iropeteon of the Bridsh end Foreign I could say that voluntary efforts had done so much that the School Society did not, however, rewding the constitution , education of the people was so complete that we need not of that society, attend to any religious instruction, but trouble ourselves therewith—a matter which I confess is merely saw :hit the scriptures were daily read. The grants one of great difficulty and which cannot be touched with continued to be made in this form, and various sums were out exciting feelings of all kinds in men of all persuasions. granted to normal schools. The grant has been increased (Hear, hear.) I lament to say that the cassis far otherwim. from year to year, until last year it notched the sum of (Hear.) I will not attempt to go into the minute statements 100.0001. When, however, being newly appointed members which many writers have already made on this subject, hut of the committee of ewancil, we came to consider the state of I feel assured that the members of this house who have paid education, it appeared to as that a very great number of any attention to it, who have read the pamphlets which have schools hod been bolt—that as there was no looser such a been published, or who have attended to the state of educe demand as three had been for money for building schools— Lion in their own neighbourhood—(hear, hear)—most say and as there were various deficiencies in the management that the education of the people of this country is still lain en and conduct of schools, it would be advisable to make tahly deficient. (Loud cries of "hear, hear.") Sir, upon minutes proposing • different disposition •f the sum this subject 1 will take the statements of one of the imp. that might be voted by parliament, and to lay nest' of the scheme, and I regret deeply that he should be down in those minutes what tee application should be. Ac- an opponent of it, because, from his learning, from his zeal cordiugly it was proposed ; and the estimate of the present for the public good, and from his piety, he is deservina of year contains what hie not been given before, namely, a de- the respect of every man—l mean Dr. Vaughan. (Hoar, tailed account of the probable appropriation f various hums bear.) In an article in the British Quarterly Review, which to which this money is proposed to be applied. One object was afterwards published with his name, Dr. Vaughan states : was, to improve too inspection of schools. Although the That the population between the ages of live end fifteen, le the number of inspectors had been incensed, there were not large , and levee , towns of England, take. together, the proportion, .fr0m „..,.... t .... hewh01f ..... p0ti1ie . ti0n,..__ Leund , _in dej-sch_ about as _at soy one ... time . _, enough to allow of the inspection of each school every year ; and it was therefore proposed be a minute of council, wou ld be 02,7„„,„.g.ni that the number of inspectors should be further increased, the remaining number, consisting of greatly more than a third of the so that there might be • more complete inspection. whole, must be reckoned ae not found in any school whatever, day- Another object which it was proposed to consider wu the school, eeeningischeol, or Sudsy-echo& To that, reckoning the payment of some of the hot ain the better-managed schools, t..t.,10.070:1a.t1 the the two zunttorix, tareen .°d u m so as to enable them to stay • longer time at school than they ' a..,.. ,_.. s 4 ,weatio. , of this latter number something lees than a third were have hitherto been able to do. It has been a general corn- tood in dayscbools, considerably lean then • third in Suodayesettools plaint of those who have taken part in education, whether era', and nearly 1,501,00 u in no school whatever. hdonging to the church or the British and Foreign School Ile th e n s ays ; Society, or any body of the dissenters—in short, of all who it may be said to be unreasonable to expect that the education of take an interest in education—that the system of monitors the people M this country should extend over • period of 10 year-. which had been originally established by Mr. Lancaster and tie it so. Let the eosee be minced ever one hall. TWA would give Dr. Bell did not answer, on account of the earl twice 1,201,,000, instead of once that number ; Ent even this would y age at leave you nearly 1,230,000 souls to be thrown upon society every 10 which children left school, so that a boy who had on ly years, who have never had a pines in nay dey-echooL had • year or two of education himself wan Sir, the statements which ere made by members of the unfit to give assistance to others. It was, therefore, pro- Church of England. by Dr. Hook, and others who have posed that • certain sum should be allotted to each school written without their names, but whose writings show which the inspectors shall have pointed out as efficient, for a great understanding of the *object, are all in opposition to the purpose of inducing boys to remain tome years at school those made by Mr. Baines, and though thee vary in some to enable them to be competent teachers. It was proposed aLso particulars, they all agree that the state of education in this where masters gave their time to those pupils to render country is extremely deficient. (Hear, hear.) But these them efficient, there should be • certain money allowance facts do not rest sod ly on the minute calculatioue which have to the masters for thus making the scholars more efficient. bean made by them, and by statistical meiotic', of the num- It was proposed in same other school., in which there were bey of children who may be found in day schools. They monitors, sod where pupil teachers could not be at cone rest also on the evidence afforded by those who came to established, that those monitors should receive a sum of Omit their names in the registry of marriage, and he others money to induce them to remain at the school, and thus who came under th• cognisance of various authorities. From become stipendiary monitors ; and that there ahould be the registrar-general's report it appear, with respect to per an allowance to the masters for teaching and training the sons marrying that forty out of every hundred who stipendiary monitors. It was proposed, likewise, for the came to insert their names were not able to write, purpose of improviog the normal schools, that and that thirty in every hundred were not able to read. a sum of money should be granted to pay Such is the state of education, notwithstanding that the those pupils who should be the mat promising, schools of Bell and Lancaster have now been established— and who should be recommended by the inspectors of the those of Lancaster for forty years, and those of Bell not sehoole, together with thou who locally conducted them, for much lees; and notwithstanding that voluntary education the purpose of being trained for those normal schools. And has been since that time doing its utmost to overtake and elm that there should be an augmentation of the salaries of suhdue the ignorance of the people. (Hear, hear.) But the maters of schools who had been trained, and who had every one mud perceive in other documents of various kinds eeceived certificates of efficiency. It was further proposed statements with regard to the total ignorance in which a that there should be • nut of money allowed for encouraging great many of the youths of this country are with respect to the (urination of workshops and gardens in connexion with any of the duties of religion or any kind of secular unarm s:shook, an addition to the present system of education which lion. The reports of assistant-commissioners and others has been often recommended. (Hear, hear.) Sir, it has state that in many cases they have no knowledge whatever always been my view that yea never could efficiently rare of any religion, that they are not in the habit of the education o this country until you have raised the con- sttenthng any place of public worship, and that even the dilion and prospects of the ioolmaster. (Hear, hear.) It names of God and Christ are unknown to them and uncon- has been toy view, often expressed in this house, whether in nected with any habits or notions of religion. (Hear, hear.) or out of office, that the drudgery of a school, insufficiently m il years ago I referred to some statements made by the emended, to ded, and leading no prospect of silvan- chop tun of Preston prison, in Lancashire. I consulted the rage, was such that men of talent and ability who report made by that chaplain, who took great care to inform were trained to that purpose could not but leave himself of the condition of the prisoners brought into that their employment in • great number of instances far ether hear)—and t h e re port w hi c h h e wives i s owe and more profitable etnoPatioat (Hear, hoar.) Ilis vim whidi *Lek must coovince every one as to the question I have found to be continued by all who have had- 'whether the people a Mie country are sufficiently alumni.' to do with train i ng schools . I have heard )ha without number that a ft er the training has been eat sa=g • att=e j Lea three Tan obwienom;_rmet a certain extent after the schoolmaster Ise bees midellibek maid le tut ewe= Zeta the very best of those schoolmasters, seamy the egespetleme tholilthild: . ' llahlaiddlo a loredthell which offer for perm= of talent in this en retry lave hued ummot "II so Elifiefh oat WY laneeersdllthlho le yen tant mesi ane Own amillineenwo opportunities tar moos tempting, and abandoned their . 6 . 3 ... 0 . tome moo oi so former imp%) meat. I consider this a great mi.- m a b c ,,....a I N J.Ls so s sel__ . _ ,„ = fortune. I think there is no profession of mom or emelomewenne==oreeel wee n =ss e e t T e r i Fll i g ea . importance than that of training the youth of the " hied** er v , iemi. wee to speak UMW le ati Legimit working classes of this country (cheers) ; nor can there he a &.1 mad Milblvldi 2111.1" bails sing ISt Wow alad o r . l:2 greater difference existing than between the schoolmaster 11.........„1nimm11r0110g0bar chrhito kimmedmi de who is incompetent and unwilling to perform his duty, and Z ie 7=S e ds ms thie ssel i te r less e nee seota lbss tne7 Wsy meo lmss oporo seaSle tt rewa tiode e-7 M tothee one who has both zeal and ability for the task. In the t a m ew ., former instance you find that the master teaches his children (Hear, hear.) He goes on to say that with respect to many by rote ; teat they learn to read, but do not understand of those who had received school instructian, no ideas wen '' 'what they have read ; and they have the greatest dislike to attached by th em to what they had learned. -For instance, their attendance at school. You find that whilst there are having rood shout the marriage at Canaan, in Galilee it no atone boys who, ow* to their quickness and cleverness, are pima fug the wor d . im . r h ge - was totally unteitigibas tayourftes of the master, a Feat number, perhaps the majo- to them With respect to the education of the male primuna nty, go eat of the school nearly as uninstructed as they went Mr. Clay glees the following table : into it. With a good schoolmaster. :ces the contrary, tt Usable te met, 104; reed taly, 41; read, write 111, 79 ; reed ast Owe is quits a different sorts of things; 'mu find the boys writs yak e; manor onsatisa, acme.' mot only read, but they know the sense of what they have Then, tli Seafesaltln militias knowledge, we find— ' mad ; and whether you examine them in grammar, histo, „"Intrenr , of 1111 Illnkies . mem, sad =INS lO_repr . t the iced.* or upon what they have been reading in the scriptures, th e . l a rh re 4h y ., owe .1 1 . j.o.67risar=., withpsst :: give the informatacia required ; they follow with interest end elementary troths st religion, SI; that general' Snow eagerness the teaching of the muter, and what they have L e d a level to o n •d e 1; tiunw ., with ibe learn makes an immersion on their minds, and they are not reripturee, sat wet mar" merely able to reed machanically, but their hearts and affec- In another table be gives t e make know ledge possessed by - none are touched through their understandings. I find, the Bute prieweem likewise, in such schools, that a muter watches tie dimosi- "Unlit mums the months et the year, 90; ignorant of the name <toe of the children, and takes care that those of slower and- Z e d" roffinialflaweellfai WI: Memo , of the north ' virtue; 'Yice,' lect thin the reel are brought up to obtain a competent na r i l " a171 . 181 " 0 " Indred • 7. " _ by many other statements of a dollar knowledge of the' business of the school, and none leave the ' kind, all se tret a load to the conclusion that the persons &shoot without a considerable degree of instructing. If I have represented at ell correctly the difference between o lizo wesi ngbt sb ia , toZatipeigan, and it is in a county remarkable for folly as aa average with other counties es to good schoolmuter and r bad one, I ask the house, with con- '"' dr umber of ile Illissis and the means of education which advice, if it is not of immense comequence to endeavour to es penises -mil fa • lame table state a ignounee. (Hear, sake the sehminmtees worthy of the important task he- .. hoeetiolsn it ippon to me a very shocking thing that posed oat them, so that they should be fit to teach their when yes do give instruction at all •t ill yon Defer give i a scholars efficiently, and be able to look forward to some no these pence' are sent to gaol for some crime. (Hear, hear. ) ward or emolument, not commeosurate, because notbing we the There am many letten is this report from prisoner' an Mr" would b• eeh ,but ono e° the° ie et P resent who lied been in prima, who afte rwards ards conducted case 'nth the important denies which they have to perform . ~___,..„. bly, ear n ed an honest livelihood, and ' the station they hold ins 'the country. (Hear, hear). "' e t r"'"' and who the day when they catered a prison, having . These is Weddell's* a preposition, with respect to which so moo* probably will be expended is the course of the there tleiiiitb• elements a knowledge, and learned to under themedees as christians and as good members of present year ; bat theee nay be in future yam, Hate grant ...„,..„. (tea) Is h met desirable that, bef or e they. es coatieued. The proposition is to Rive retiring pension". to W o r h e theei k iloo, while they are yet young and (amnesia= lelhOoliossOlSS ' who have been worn out in the ounce ....., a . _..._ s ___ a _ c _ ....__ „...._____ _ . —Cheer, heer)—and often dad themselves, after performing =l mo toot "'""7, l 7" tio :l 4 l , bo "'"l tt :r b t° , °pa:lda:lool4d vi e•, rapeseed* duties, with namely bread to est. I 110 "^* geambeeimerms, te kapres them with the elements of set feel that for having p ro P med thee I. le r"' the quality religlea ased a trek, sod le give fleet that secular know ,of the , and the condition aa quality of the ledge whir& will be el mie to them lit after-life ? (Cheers.) schoolmasters, twe are deserving of those denunciatima - w ttf the swim Of this SISOMIO. when 'Peeking gad threats which have been poured out so abundantly upon '-'' , a_t .„. • tu is la h.b. lie smet.ing: P u irris he wes eseteopells .., opea r; g nst it, had put re.- (Hear, hear.) I think it might have been said, are , a queation in you doing nothing more ? It is all very well ea far as you '""" writing froma person in the foitiy of the meeting, which go; but IS not equal to the imraen.sity of Weevil, and a ~... to thee whet , " Is it set better to put up • puidopost larger and mom comprehensive plan ought to be proposed ••• at the • 'of a man's li fer, than • gibbet at the end of (Hew, hear.) But, whatever may be the answer to that , .. „, ~..1 i.i holy. Barnet mad. l alto_uld airmi not suit the the c u om q m ni en ck t " wh a i n c y li. observation, I do feel that the plan we have proposed has raised a question of the greatest importance among the .'_ Rev. public, and that the objeetioas which have been stated affest "s coul d Int to take advantage Of such an incident. ,' Ho comment was, " But what if this guide-poet should lead to , • se vitally the whole question of education, that I cannot even the gibbet ? " That was the quick esply, and likely enough • omit this opportunity of taking some notice of the more it was to catch the applause of the meeting ho was address prominent of thou objections. Sir, I have said that, with tee beet, not wed . any _., ing._ .,,... 8n_t _h_subm ,.. it to .t.. hlthh_ t owin that_ s...... ltheel e_ le n_o_ s. thiug , _ isi . elte respect to many ' parts of this subject, ettenation from that which hat been settled in former years , Trf,'"f_l_ f:r_m_,‘"' . ,.._.7,=.7rf r it i i - a. _,..„,„,,,,._„, 'end which lies been repeatedly agreed to by parliament. :: rf--72-2.: . the Chunk g o: e . , the 7 : ae :r eg r. Per instance, with respect to what Is stated to be 'Ol, noth ing tr,‘ is ti e . mast the dime** of masters the une'sest i e stimAl "ear° of the ' batt y 6° whom connected with the British and Foreiewlgelsool Society ior this r an t is L. be eness " eed t I staid hate " a g e° in that givers* the Wedemos ; wh inlajledfies any ratnio .it meat be dear that nothing ie ware esesrAtetiseal sapn" g that thief* to he ea education Welsh is to lead a:mae than for " al " . et the era " t° " air 111.17 for WI." to the gibbet. (Hew bear.) Betamedwr Sour.. , which I pimposes, to explain the isaranaft is whisk that as utale, . was very may* keens, has bees aka by a gentleman be spat, and te deptd er • vele a the Hemet! Omemeses who has made bilemelf very premamma k the whole of this whether or ett that messydrahl begrastel. HUI devoid tiktootioos k width he austere kid lispeedes which 1 am have thought stilt Ism weld ban bra the *Wits with regard tot he thotototo el gash a committee o t tosso n , when . sera r.a. I maisb lisee 'buys . vat i f t eit es sed imeabssi sidek ii i r .. ..i. t.a. this wha li t o . upe e.. will , I Mead that, dem ISM et which time there was • great ' -- s WOOS we moist by WOOD lass the exemides of crimes, to deal adieu:aim es this 'abject, up to the present day, that doter utomoomittoot thowatoothot some which will low to usestise hat hardly hew mooted. (Hear, hear.) But . 'whether emir erne gmenwest or another, with respect to er tT e .!•„ ~......(1 2. 1 1, 1411 /I,W2Ma ..,Z . l,_. AN WWI Of INS Ind 11141, mid from then to the present sa r' e r s ."7, ai ^ etwo r ie T he ls7 t h o ll a nhe t h e rehhhh r e = y key lisee,line peel& with little observation—with K est, nnssugg sunsigg smog rimssoiyisn—wign way any elteetise-i-ema die part ,of this house, and heathen& awl lintel i, me beet la have hew entreated •le the existing committee of comMantim des rwei Ist Is pese—sehm far welled. And if, Mn, I should not have expected =tilln esite .i = ere fame In Mathetty re* 4 = o maid lave bee raised , "It 4 all with WU* NOM 1141101111BNO, ems with the Webs* religious ahead 4 suppeeed they weeld have bean made by the very* whim they have bees daily raised, because it dos li a : fa l l i Ms stakmeat Went with what I have said, but it 1116 liagria—aad the jeered, .the house will attest the ges s op to say: feet—lbal degasliest at mimeo Mmominaticom of dissenting Oa mei elms es kw I have tee remarks*. make—lab that they esisiesei is ireeks, ma wrier dissenting ministers melt beaker ha eat of sewn in any Mews a the eud thamegket the :pastry, appiateded the gevereaset for elewil d t _tenti,f_ Waves the stews herein Ahem, Ole Gould ea, melte soy nes of orb yodel, money for canonise' to ho stressed be a now. ''`'. l .loi sw sillies -of courdi, sad supported the gevermiseet a that h .0. ...rue " k iln.' t o shi n liat i k eZ= t e. ch i day to limb' Prolstitiam• (Load 'balm) I Irv* there- isms be made As •WW - pg:iati.. IR ...isims•st 'Mersin fore, air, that the objection es to the sumnittee of council of Week et the purr et the people thumb= le Overtake rained in lei), sad gives ,up is 1840, will not that Tint. • now again be medilmed lbw: Mk* and be brought to bear The meanies of this perms is, tar thew is a certain class mdast any von far the seasteste efedeestica. (Cheers) of prow of this kind which is Mad In sonnexion with Sr, week, is sated, which wink goes to the vice and crime, heaths ignorance sedbratal seneality, and while dsmdneGn if this grant, and gees, indeed, a great that in this conned** they leer be left ; that for them the deal laden dial tics grant, and miry - other grants of this woes of education an set to be provided; that in our cal bent It hiedi thatit is altogether • minks for the state minim M what is the west el mhseation in the country, Mitim any omistemes for the lapped ef tehmatim. It is fiber is m " be wired ; that for them, indeed, there aid, no desk% is the bedew of the tto repress is ingebanneent, asperktdoe, and the gallows ; but that Wer--se desk ate the heirs edtk government to ism- milder mod seem fekrisse shall not be introduced pass, le teempert, wed te exemete empathy, if seeeseary, ameaget them I that Mire is not to show her the. tote minima erara—yet the date an have me busker awed hest me** tom, and that the schoolmaster whatever with edemedes—lbet the state has notbng to do shall use *gen le km Mat knowledge by which their with midenvensisg, es tar es it shall be t Mader* issylemade emaelk ; that all knowledge should proper at dee time, to deter the yaw( *•m be eamelled, or, I sheeld Whey say, withheld from them, des semadethes is their after see ot these - erase sad get they may be left ht bushes, helpless degradation. whisk mar berg *ea Ora the penalty of the law. (Leal Ti seta pre I never can give my consent. (Loud Wert) eir, Ma segestent, if Wise married out to its fall NW penal .) At such a proposition coming (tom cies% sad as fir me I see it is 'imitastled to be, would go a of great intelligence, and belonging to very far bawl. It read go, set wag le amthsequent grant a =ea in this autairr which has been so liberal of in the aitimatei, the gnat ef sues ey for education in Ire- its cored, ag ***, gigi e t it s t u n , i n behalf of e d ucat i on, h,d , a s s s o maTicogs MOO le Wakes, at different deno- Ism emeallogly esuried. (Hear, hear.) It shows le me isinalisem—to the mime denim in Ireland, to the assistance to what pas ere einem' le bawl mow" when they gnaw be the misistem of the Church of Scotland, and to any are omens • mime whisk holds out a mortar =eta landing art misting schools in oonnetion with mamma of Weensgoa het this mammy elem.. (Chase t) I N A i h os h (How, bear.) Indeed, it is intended coleus I da, eel seMelela astsavasass strosaseissa that I. founds this t, if it were conceded by this how, tempuras, ad set seemed is evereneinsi the Artie and Has a n ftpr ,t, of gage l tion ST religion by parliament is resistance of • gent member a Me lower etas stela di altogether cerobeedis, and shat the voluntary system ought seription—thet mend and riotous omen will tot. th, ,oh es item funned , ei•her with reward to relioion or not lead many into the p hl eat i rer sa ime; but still I trait that education. lam not now going to discuss that larger question, the number may be diminished. (Hear, hear.) I trust it but I believe the areum-ot is urged for the purpose of saying will be restricted by showing that education leads, rot to the from h if the grant was reje owl on the , ground of interference with path of duty only, but to the path of worldly advantage ; reilgioae «foes , ion. haw tar the monopoly of it should be in and that by this mesas many will be rescued the pat the hem& of one body enlled the Church of England. But Maims. (Hear, hear.) And if the attempt is not moot IND sue, that at th pre:ent time sod no the present seen- successful than we can hope—if hut one third or one-fourth rain-1 ward not do me • than say such a deauc:icn ought of these penises are re.nund front their evil ways—stilt nit tilt ' roe tie from the premises. But it is said "there I say we have performed a duty . which is incumbent on us. is , utfii isoa do :e Mr ~diu,,tion already--there is no need of It will enable to with more stusfaction to ourselves, to oh arty forth r aseist...ect —the people ol Hoglend are so edu serve the working of puuishoient which the criminal law EVENING, APRIL 20, 1847. . . certain rules laid down, la tholhotnity with the original in- I tendon that the application of tide sum should he, generally t speaking, for ichouli whisk Mowed the rules and mourns i of the National Society sad of the British and Foreign I School Society. The question which I have mentioned I never arose. It has, however, been asked einee, and having I referred to the minutes of 1839 in tinier to see what is i there stated on this subject, we find that it confines the i giants then to be made to those ethools in which the script 1 tures are read daily. I have stated already that I think that by the term "the ecriptures," in all general understanding I at those words, is intended the authorised version of the Kelp. urea; and, aceordingly, when we meant otherwise we took care to mention particulars, and to state that the Douay yersiou would be read. (Hear.) Then the question is whether, if there should be a desire on the part of the Boman Catho lics to have catholic schools in certain districts placed in came:ion with the committee of council on education, an ap plication for that purpose should be entertained? I for one, should be in favour of , ntertaining it; but I think the greatest care must in that case be taken in the framing of tae minutes. I think that it would not do for us to support any schools to be established in connexion with monasteries in this country. I think likewise that schools set up which protestant chil dren might attend, but in which they might have no oppor tunity of readier/ the bible daily, would be very olijectionable. (Hear, hear.) That there might be other schools I can well conceive to be possible ; but I own I see no re her means of avoiding this difficulty, which seises from the minute of 1839, and nut from the minute of 1816, and which, so far as I am aware, has net raised any practical difficulty, and I see no reason for raising the difficulty at all at the present moment. I think thY, after having been a-ked, as we have been, by clergymen of the Church of England, sod by others, whether the authorised version of the scriptures was meant; having referred to this minute, stating that it was meant; and belief; received applications for the whole of the 100,0001. now to be voted, it is not de , arable to extend any part of the proposed sum to Roman ' catholic schools. I believe that about half a million has already been spent under the direction of the Lords of the Treasury and the Committee of Council on Education, and if that half million, I de not think • singl, shilling has been glen for the purposes of purely Roman catholic schools. (Hear, hear.) I do not myself "see the advantage, merely the sake of placing a stumbling-block in our way, of amine to any immediate decision on that subject. ("Hear, beer," and a laugh.) But, sir, such being the propose], and the difficulty being so great with regard to any other scheme, the question which I now have to aek this house is, whether they think there is any sufficient reason for instituting an inquiry, " whether the regulations at tached " to this scheme of the goverann tot " do not unduly increase the influence of the crown, invade the constitutional functions of parliament, and interfere with the religious convictions and the civil rights of her Majesty's subjects." I have touched on the " constitutional functions of parlia ment;" I have stated, and I trutt I have shown, that we do net interfere with " the religious convictions and the civil rights of her Majesty's subjects." Witb regard to " the influence of the crown," I certainly supposed, until I saw the objection made, that if one part of the minutes of council were carried into effect, the influence of the creme, instead of being increased, would be diminished by the ope ratien of this scheme. With regard to the who le of that part of the scheme which relates to stipendiary monitors, to pupil teachers, and to muter, of schools, the giants will be made on the report of the inspeetors appointed by different administrations, honestly performing their duty, and declaring who are the most tit persons to receive the grants ; and no monitor ens pupil teacher, when seven or eight years hence he comes to his majority, and ac quirea a vote, will feel himself in the least degree bound to the minister of the day, whoever he may be, merely beceure ho has at a former period received • grant of money, under dr report of an inspector. (Hear, hear.) With regard hi ' toe point, that as a great many of these young men will not be employed as schoolmasters, some o: them might receive employment in the different branches of the revenue, that maggertion was originally made, I believe, in this house by *g molds friend the present Secretary of State far the Colonies, when the right honourable gentleman wash" (Sir R. Peel) was in office, and my noble friend in ippodtion. The object was to afford some kind of reward M in additional mauve to the acquiring a good education, air as an inducement to parents to send their children to schools. It might, however, be supposed, from the language mad on this subject, that we were about to create an im mense number of new offices under the crown, for the wake of these young people. (" Hear, hear," and laughter.) There will, in fact, be just the same number of revenue offices to • be filled as before; but, when recommendations are given for the different departments, instead of parties merely saying that the gentleman whom they recommend is • stanch political adherent of the minister, besides, perhaps, reeding end writing well, and being in all ether respects well qualified, for example, to be an excise men (laughter) they will be able to say that besiles reading and writing well, he knows his geography and history, and has been well brought up, and they will altogether omit the reference to his political qualifications. (Laughter.) As to this being a great scheme for the increase at government patronage, it is really the most idle of appre 'llersions. (Hear, hear.) Sir, with regard to one other print which is touched upon, and perhaps was intended to ha touched upon, in this reeolutioo, there is, I am aware, what I think is a very great hardship in many of the church @shoots of this country—a refusal to allow children to come so those schools unless their parents will let them Isere the satechism, and attend church on the Sunday. (Hear. hear.) With regard to that rule, however, we neither alter it nor encourage it by this scheme. (Hear.) It we had made it a thodltionofanyof the grants that the fundamental rules of these sehools should be departed from, we should perhaps have lost the advantage of having the schools well conducted, and the pupil teachers well-instructed. But, Sir, for my part I cannot but thisk that the church itself would gain a great advantage if it allowed parents to send their children to its schools, without insisting upon their either learning the catechism, or attending church on the Sunday. (" Hear, ' hear," and cheers.) I believe that the rule of the Wesleyan body which allows parents to act on their religious convic tions in that respect, is a much wile r, and a mach more charitable rule—(hear, hear) ;--and I ales believe that it does not tend in the least degree to the diminution of the bed, which acts upon it. I shall see with pleasure an improvement in the rule ou that subject adopted in church ethools ; but I do not think that this gran: of 100,0001 t, of which part wide to the established church, would justify par liament in imposing upon voluntary societies any regulations which they might ndlaiijatised to carry out by themselves. Itlay again, that I should be glsd to see a change' in 'this respect; and if any small body of die .sinters, in prenieular places, should say that the children would lie sent to the church schools, but that they could not on account of the rule which I have men tioned, I think that would be a reason for granting - addi tional aid to those schools which the children might attend, without being placed in that position. (Hear, hear.) But, Sir, the question is, the scheme being, as I admit, in many respects, imperfect—the question is, whether you will not, in some way, try to combag an evil which Dr. Vaughan describes iii terms that I will fides read : "rises elindren—the children of 1015W10011 sat poverty—are al most emeywhere powlag ap es on* odes AY wit he Issquestlied MY Waist. dad wlln se It tast wep. this AM OW ekes. .that areas are grabolog moll The pest mess et AY being diewarbes unismilrosted. by no adequate of Ma valise et lanYles ; awl their swot elm scams to to dent their athirst leer a Source of treat as soon sad as largely es pawed& The Yost is end* that the esemet pittance may he gaol hem hoi Mt or the hatorp. . Lst limn mode un retmelledthishitheinate he any fa a sight dogma owe MEW eiteast let any drew lit tem gen eiaret or aim me mom el eoloyargat. ma to the Akan of West go may Moe to add Oa op water the Imo arm et omikaol weenhetonie to Leland: end Woe modem learrignery the toner et tbmirimmet omormmat meg he ae mph& sad. Wes km whoa we meet 111, e Th. i t: 4 =d ess ate yawl greatness Irma Yelaremery . le . II pay on present canoe b to end Ilnie —Ps so A greet aragirslibilberms hare perished, our lostamee ear , oleo bath. loatro lawasor dm our bowled,' sot or eletain. Mr, I cent* bet trotaist, after reading that pamogo, and Wag hogoaleod whitles beak that its author albriii be an at of doe pawn' orlon of ed 'mattes. (Rem, hear.) Tart i r:y earn peak min that the evil is so gnat, I am not .="to wait until I ens get a more general sad st more aebeese. (Chew..) l am disposed rather to feel my way, and be proceed as Isr as we can ; until at length, per haps, a may find soy inky* on wh ich the great mass of intelligent opinion is this country will unite, end then I shall be twat happy to ass embodied in an act of parliament the provisions whath have met with such concurrence. In the mean time math yew for these means, inadequate as they are with • view of dispelling in some degree the ignorance which prevails, and premsoung religion and virtue among 'the great mass of our people. We salt of you this, although well aware of the condemnation which this scheme has met with, well aware that it would have been far t atiier to have shrunk from the task and not to have asked this house to strata anything beyond the millions upon millions which have already been voted for the military purposes of this country. It would have been easier, I repeat, to have said, " Let an have additional millions for our army, our navy, and our ordnance, but we win not ask for a mingle farthing for the purposes of education.' But, sir, that would not have been consistent with the duty which we feel prew ng • upon us, to improve, as far as in us lies, the sch ool teaching in this country—to assist, as far as in 11.1 lies, in g iving a kn owledge of the ways of virtue, an ao quaintatos with the truths of religion, - to many of UM uninstructed masses of this country. (Hear, hear.) And, be the opposition what it may, however formidable it may be at this moment, however formidable it may be fend I lament to say that such is the case) in withdrawing from us the aid end support of many who, " throush good report and evil report," have supported us in our political course— be that evil what it may, it will be a consolation to ma that I have made an attempt to diminish the empire of ignorant*, and to raise the people of this country in the scale of virtue end religion among the nations of the world. (Loud cheers.) Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said he should be the last inetvidual in that house to eemptitn of the course which the noble lord had taken en that oeoasion. During the 20 years that he bed eat in that house be did not recollect any instance of a prime minister paying so great • compliment to an indivi dual member es to condescend to endeavour, if possible, to prejudice beforehand a motion of which that member had gine nodes. (Hear bear.)) The noble lord might speak, if be plowed, of hie (Yr.T.Duncomben) idle apprehensiou ; bat he had the eoneolatton to know that the apprehensions, . which be entertained were participated in by thousands, sad even millions, of his fellow.oeuntrymen. The noble lord had spoken of his (Mr T. Duneom'te's) oils tion as • motion of ceniure upon the govermnent, and of want of oinfidence in her Majesty's Privy Council. however, the noble lord might choose to treat the motion, he certainly had no confidence in that selto li red tribunal, the commit ee of council on education. Whatever might be the tate of the motion, it would not fell because there was any thing u•reatanable in the r' quest, or inconsistent with perlienientary metre. If it radial, it would be because of the i ability ii any individual and independent member of the , house to scope with the Ellitll , ll . rita influence brought to bear agaiwit his motion and a:so because of those agree meets and understandinera, if not menial and absolute , which had been made both with members of the establ ish ed church and with certain portious of the dissenting community, 1 enmpacts and understandings which were most disgraceful to those who called themselves a liberal ministry, and had acted thus in the face of their former principles and their avowed I opinions He felt at that moment that he had the support and the good wishes of i large purtien of his fellow-country men. Since giving the notice, he had ree.ived from all parts : of the country communications in reference, to it, asking I hire to persevere, decOring that the house would neglect its duty if it aid not o , dain further information before : itgoted away the pule:c money, for &scheme, which, note ith standing what had fallen from the noble lord, he was pre pared to maintain was do e gerous is civil and religious liberty, increasing the power of the crown, invasive of, or actually supersedieg the functions of parliament, and unjust , to that portion of tne community who would be compelled to contribute to the support of the system, without deriving from it say benefit. Moreover, the scheme was one which would not attain the objects sought, though it would carry discord, jealousy, and dissension into every locality where it was introduced. The noble Ind had told them that undue influence or intimidation had been used, to overawe the members of that house, and prevent them from doing their duty on that occasion. He (Mr. T. Dulicomb, , ) se..uld like to know what courses had been adopted on the other side in order to secure demonstra tions in favour of the measure. In 1839 her Majesty's mi nisters postponed a minute which they then proposed, in consequence, as they said, of not being able to reconcile the differences which existed, and of the necessity of obtaining a greater concurrence of public opinion. He would ask whe ther it could be said, after the petitions presentee that after noon and on former clays, that there was anything like a concurrence of public opinion in favour of this scheme? The noble lord, perhaps, felt himself strong in having bought off the opposition of the Wesleyan', and secured the supp_ot of a portion of the established church. He (Mr. T. Duncombe) denied that the established church, as a whdle, woe in favour of the scheme ; and he believed that when the mem& rs of the establis , ed church knew its nature exactly. the greatest portion of them would refuse to give their adhe sion to this new-tangled scheme of the government. He had that evening presented a petition from thirteen clergy men of the diocese of York, who were now beginning to understand this plan, and who objected to the scheme, as degrading the spiritual pastors of pa- Astir% by placing them in the position of assistant teachers to the committee of council. In a letter which se compauied the petition, it was slat. d that most of the clergy were a. yet quite in the dark in reference to the real nature of the scheme. Now, the petitions in favour of the scheme came chit fly from ministers and moorhen of the established church. When it suited his purpose, the noble lord had no objection to get public opinion ie his favour; but, happily, in the present instance, all his ex , rtions had not sufficed to secure it. In this country there were twelve or thirteen thousand parishes. The noble lord had presented fifty or sixty petitions and this, alter all Lord Ashley's coquetting, first with the established church, and then with the Wesleyan. I laughter.) A petition had been ft at from the central committee in favour et the scheme, of which committes Lord Ashley was chairman, to different parties whom it was intended t o conceiate. The boa. mem ber then read a letter addressed " Reverend Sir," urging the party addressed to pre cure signatures to a petition which was enclo-ed, in favour of the government scheme. These petitions (he ecintinued) were all cut and dried from Kay Shuttleworth's pattern, and were sent down, he supposed, direct from the Privy Council.. It w .4 requested that the petition might be sent, prepared, either to the writer or to Lord John Russell, 32, Cheshant piece ; his lonkitip having kindly consented to take charge of all such petitions. (Laughter.) The letter was signed, " Yours very faithfully, Henry Hughes, M.A., Incumbent of All Saiuts', Gordon-equre. But now came the postscript, which, like many other postscripts, was of the greatest im portance : " I have authority to state, that under the exist ing minutes the authorised version of the scriptures must be read daily in all schools aided by the g,,vernment." (Hear.) It was noticeable that the noble lord, when he spoke of the deficiency of education among various sects, took no notice of the Roman catholice. lie (Mr. Duncombe) had an ac • count, extracted from the Catholic Directory for 1846," whereby it appeared that out of 66,307 Roman catholic children requiring to be educated in the principal districtsof England and Wale. only 30,207 were now receiving educa tion, leaving some 3 ' 5,100 de-iieute of any educational pro vision. How was it, he should like to know, that these im portant facts and figures had not attracted the attention of the noble lord? Could it be true, as had been rumoured, that the compromise with the church—with the party re presented by Mr. Henry Hughes —was not the only com promise effected by the government? What thought they of "compromise with the Wesleyan'. at the expense of the Roman catholic' ? There had been—probably most mem bers had read it—a correspondence wits Sir Culling Esrdlry Smith, upon this subject, from which it appeared that, up to the latest moment, the government would give no sada fictory reply to th e inquiries mad. of them, as to what theyintended regarding the Roman catholic*. But a paper which he held in his band would explain all. It was sett to him by a gerelernan on whom he could rely, and it purported to be an account of what had occurred be term7 the government and the Wesleysns upon this subject. " About a fortnight ago," said his informant, " at the Cen tenary-hall of the Weeleyans in Bi.hopegatestreet, their commietees upon eduction end upon privileges were sum moned to hold a meet ng. They were convened for the pur pose of framing resolutions condemnatory of the government plan of education which at previous meetings they had determined to oppose. Before the meeting commenced the members assembled were requested to receive a communica tion from Lord Ashley, who, it appeared, was waiting to see them. Lord Ashley stated to the meeting that he was com missioned to negotiate with On m on behalf of the govern ment, upon the principle that all schools should be excluded from grants in which the authorised version" of the Scriptures were not used. The object of this negotiation could not be misunderstood , and it was very agreeable to the Wesleyan body, especially as it would be observed that the negotiation originated with the government. It was re solved iu ooexquenee to adjourn the deliberations of the committees te Manchester where they would have the be nefit of the counsel and assistance of some of their induce- tial associates and friends in the manufacturing districts Meetings were accordingly held there on Thursday and • Friday, the Bth and 9th. of Aprd, when it was determined to open • direct communicatioa with the members of the ' Privy Council. Accordingly a meeting was held at Lana downs Hawse, en Wedandey, Apeil 14, when a deputation I beaded by Dr. Beating, met Lord Ls9sdowne and Lord J. 1 Russell, and where It was agreed that the existing minutes I should be construed to apply to abed" using the authorised versidn of the Scriptures, but that the government should not be precluded from issuing fresh minutes if they saw fit upon the subject of the Roman Catholic schools, nor the Wesleyans, if they saw fit, be precluded from offering such minutes all the opposition in their power. At the same meeting the following concessions were also made: first, that the church schools receiving aid, should be required to receive as scholars the children of Wesleyan parents, without forcing them to learn the catechism or to attend church ; and second, that no person in hbly orders should hold any office as master of a school receiving government grants; this prepoaition being iatroduced in order to defeat a scheme of the Bishop of Exeter's for ad mitting schoolmasters to hale orders after a certain proba tion." That was the treaty, offensive and defensive, as he was informed of it. Mr. MACAULAY : It's a mere romance! (Hear, hear.) Mr. T. DUN CO Id BE : A mare romance was it ? He trusted it would prom so. He trusted it would be found that Roman Catholics were not to be excluded from participating in the grants made to the schools. The sooner they proved that to be a " mere romance" the better ; for he held in his hand a petition against the measure emanating from the Roman Catholics of Leeds, being one of many to the same purport sent to him and to other members to pre sent. The government would at least admit that there was no romance in that : on the contrary, that ft was a stern reality, (' Hear," and laughter.) But, "peaking of . " mere romance,' let him asEthe right hon. gentleman whether he recollected the speeches which had been made on the occa sion of Lord Stanley's motion in that house, when bcth he and the noble viscount at the le ad of the Woods and Forests (Viscount Morpeth) expressed themselves anything bat of opinion that Roman Catholics aught to be excluded from their share of government support ? Looking at the view then taken by the party now in power, he could not but stigmatise the ft present concession as a base and truckling concession, highly disgraceful to those who bad, on former occasions, sogallantly combated the spirit of " No Popery.", Dare they have made such • concession if Mr. O'Connell had been in hh plate in parliament ? Dare they have created this new disability if there had been any spirit of daring or independence among the Roman Catholic mem bers now within that house? He did trod that it would not go forth to the people that the Protestant mem bers of parliament were those who alone were prepared to fight the Roman Catholic battle on this occasion ? Would the hon. member fcr Dungareon (Mr. Sheik) go into the lobby with the government. and thereby cast a reproach on his faith, and suffer Catholics to be taxed for the support of Protestant education ? Surely, surely, Catholics would never In this reproach be cost on their religion. It would be hard, indeed, on them were their faith to be as stigmatised ; r and he trusted that they, and many others in that house, would concur in refusing to vote one shilling of the public money for this scheme until all sects were shown to be able I I to participate squally in its advantages. (Hear, hear.) But he now came to consider some of the details of the bill. It : was remarkable that the noble Ford had said nothing as to the probable cost. Wm there any one present who could ; say within one half million what would be the cost of cam , log out this plan ten years hence ? ; An. /lON. MEMBER : A penny per head. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE —A penny per head, said the ben. I member. That was his caleulation; but there were others I who calculated it et somewhat about two millions per annum. Then how was the measure brought forward ? No doubt it ; was thought in the privy council to be a very clever plan to gR O : Talk k :s dvt e D :rddl r ..r ha inet E s thtyh. ied be musical kg:e: taught, — v ocal make the Lord President. lay these minute' on the table of on the House of Lords without any prefatory remarks. As they were not to be decided by the lords—as they only cons , prehended a money vote, which was a matter for the Hoar of Commons—it was no doubt thought s very clever plea t• lay the papers on the table without an observation. Mak doubtless, was the view of the Lord President. " Tele" them," said be, " read thews, digest them, if you ; it ha . great condescension in me even to hriog them down to was three ever such a piece of quack , you, so read them, pay your money, and be gratead." ; e ( ry lAu p gh u t t er. toge ) B th u e t r ? l ual au elf Dr. ghter.) the gt. n ,. s ) quackery x pi ll s—wasey of t i r ; lasses used the pons d s rv r i las ing 4lu S e h e ' ; kel aird a" ali und er the r parochial clergy! (Relic wed !auk hter,) One or two things, however, were not to be taught ; and, POI great adoiiration - had been expressed of the system of education in Switzer land, he would notice one great omission in what was os.. sidered in Switzerland an essential element of edasesi ea He referred to instruction in the rights and duties of tins... ship. ("Hear, bear," from Dr. Bowrieg.) Wh y A mid not Englishmen be taught the duties of citizens : are, se t t the rights of citizens, too 1—(" hear," from W. we. liams)—and why should not the constitutional history e r our country be put into the hands of our children? But anoth, r rave objection was, that, under this reheat, the rural districts would be neglected. It was ossua ry twice the amount of local contributions should be pe es Tided, in order to secure a government grant. Naa r i t was notorious, :hat there were many parts of the country where not 201. nor lfil. per suntan could be ranee fur educational purposes, and yet those very districts, which, perhaps, required government ansiotance the meet, week "; altogether deprived of it. (Hear, hear.) He then cause to the industrial school question. There were many parte of th e country in which these industrial schoels were I.adcen t pm as absurdities, but there were other listricto in which tee , were viewed with alarm. Working men, is many districts, were of opinion that in the present of active competition, caused by redundancy . of l i n er, it would he impenible fur them to compete w i t h the produce of the labour of these industnal scnoon. As regarded the learners in these workshops of trades, whiz would be the effect? Judging from the exp, rinses ef t h e industrial schools, the instruction given to them in skilled trades would be so imperfect, that before they mud I no w into legitimate competition with other workmen, they n i g unlearn what they had acquired in the eovertunent week. shops. In their design, however, these establishments mast be regarded as a government combination &minx the has industry of the country. The greatest efforts had Wes made by government agents of all sorts is the me. nufactunng districts, to obtain the adhesion of the linen ing classes to this scheme ; but these attenpn had signally failed. Those clines were too enlibletied and too acute to he taken in by such a barefaced at empt to enslave and shackle them. At Birmingham, for enzaple, where pi culiar exertions had been m .de to win near the is. duetrial population, the plan had b, en rejeetedat agents/let ing of the wurkiog-clesses, by an overwhelming majority( vane, its the proportion of no fewerthan Ino to 1. The pane... duct of the council of education had been such as to devot ee it of toe confidence of the people, utterly drginti il with its glaring partiality towards schools in connexion e the es tablished church. Only the other day the cb :nun of a public meeting ou the aubjeet, stated a ,yes w i t h, in his on n immediate knowledge, where tl • council had only given fifty pounds towards a dissenting school, to which 3501 had been subscribed by p irate libe ran y, whereas, in another case occurring at the ante time, wherein parties had contributed 800/. for • sch d in OM unzion with the established church, the council 1.. d given no less than 800/. more, the intrinsic merits being n greater in the one instance than in the other. A pamphlet had been issued by Dr. Shuttleworth—at the public cost —in which that gentleman, after giving an account of strike at Preston, u d of the loves which the workmen there had undergone in Consequence, threw the whole blaue upon the ignorance which he stated to be the cease of that strike, whereas the real blame should be imputed, not to the employed, united against the oppression of their employers, but to the employers, bonded i most wrongfully to keep down the operatic, . ( : = 1 ) Government, however, might rest assured that tic working draws would not again resort to any unmeanin, or ineffee teal strikes. They knew better how to proceed non. They're, now rapidly forming one great national united trades twin, extending throughout the country, and embraeim: all trade, creating a large fund, which should at once relieve then in the hour of need, and render them independent it all. end marten as should seek to oppremthem and to meet their ob. Inkling all they asked—a fade day's wage fur t fairday's labour. By means of this union, any branch of trs throw out of employment hy the combination of mitten n say part of the country, would have the raw material r their in duotry placed at their disposal, and be thui rendered indifferiet whether their late moisten took them back or not. The I scheme was already in successful operation, and mon beneficial effects of it to the working classes had .teen brought within Ms knowledge the other day when he waist Nottingham. The motives of the dissenters, in their open sition to the goy. rnment plan now before the house lud been moot discreditably misrepresented by its favourers, and among others by the Rev. Mr. Hughes. he had already referred to, who, in a petition to the how, had vi attired to impute to the dissenting body that it hod bun guilty of direct falsehoods in its arguments apainst thi scheme, whereas every statement advanced by the diner :en was based upon the most careful and conscientious inn gigatica of facts and of experience. Ile did not uuderstand way the noble lord should object to the appointment of a a:ratline& He had not intended his motion a- a censure upon the go vernment, but certainly, if the noble lord chose to ri it led as a motion of want of confidence in the govemmett measure, he was quite at liberty to do so. He midden that the manner in which the prinent government h .d bees creating patronage for itself was most disgrace ful. See nein tronage creates' under th (Railway Bill, under the LeeslOssits Bill, under the Health of Towne Bill, by the inttitutiesoft new biehopries, upon one of which, no doubt, the Rey Kr. Hughes had his eye. Why, it was monstrous: and now thus was to he the vont patronage, increasing year after year, ands this education scheme. By means of all this patronage, the government would be in a position to spread corruption throughout the country. The noble lord himself admitted that there were grave objections to the messu•e. Why not allow these objections to be fairly represented before a con mittee of the house, by men who weir reedy and willies, who were anxious to substantiate them / If the unit Ind persisted in avo.ding the probe of such an inquiry, it wont be manifest to all that he knew there was something in the scheme which would not bear the light of day, cud that in object was to increase the power and influence (tithe arnt . e, rather than the instruction of the people, the result bmeg that instead of our being a better erluoared p male, we shoal be an endive.. d and corrupted people. The hon. gentleman concluded lay moving as an ameudment • • a TO it previous to my greed elf any ;midi, mnrusy being ware' b)! t hin for the passed eirryilut out the reheroe of nettoad se developed In time sikeutes of the committee of camel onedseatne to Aug** end Deseinticr teat (which minute's have tee paged to both bones ef pedieetent by command of her MMwty, • abet comisteste be wide& to Weeks IMO the fur.iae nano , =tool same, sad ler probable emus' cot; Wm, to Inure, itee•sepitedessetteithed Om= do net unduly Ma me. the Inflamed tie mows, Meade es esietttutional functions of paths. went, sod Medea with the tel and the civitrighti of her Majesty's =beets. Viscount DUNCAN seconded the amendment. Re could assure the noble lord that nobody regretted his hostile pogitioa more than he (Lewd Duncan) did but be was seat there. by a huge' constituency, who required him ea Inns , tigate earefitily every 'rant of the public meaty, the tbsir part ha =Masted against the plan of the goverament, and should support the amendment of his hon. friend. • Sir R. INGLIS would nut pretend to say that he looked on the minutes of the privy council with any specie) favour, but he considered them asan establish= feet ; and illthougl be still looked upon the church as the only proper eitliority ho which ought to be delegated the national reaounes for educational purposes, he was contented to take thy 'rem ment plan, not only cheorfully, but thankfully. (Hear, best.) Admitting the fundamental defect he had mentioned, he thought that this plan was a better one than could bars been expected from any other combination of parties in the house. (Laughter.) He believed that upon the whole —carding out the principle announced eight • non before, and which the dissenters supported—that phe would lead to measures of very considerable 'lmprovement. He agreed in so much of the plan, tint la was almost reluctant to mention the points on which be die agreed. His great objection was to nassactifled edr cation—education .not founded on sound religiose JO* ciplea. (Rear, hint). Comparisons had been „olds between the relative amounts of crime and 'dudes, the °beet of which was to show that as the lated eel absent, so the former predomlnand ; but be saidi produce tables to show when the spread De vie cation had led to the increase of crime. LOS , it was self-evident that unless education taught a area his duty to Ood, mere reading and writing would prove lut very imperfect blessings. It was, then, became he end del government had prosided for the religious jaundiced* children, and also for inspection at regular periods, Ibis In gave the ' plan his hearty support. He saw no reustuntioad objection to the nomination of a committee of the Win council. The house had nothiug to do with it. Item des by the minister on his responsibility, which could he toed when he came belbre the house for his annual veto Ss begged again, in conclusion, to repeat that he gave his cheer ful and that:Lira' support to the measure. Mr. MACAULAY said he offered himself to the adier d the house as a member of that commithe of council who conduct was called in question. His lime act, at a So b° ' of that committee, had been to give hie hearty assent= tie minutes of last December; be was, therefore, odd,l* who had been accused throughout the country, thei house, of aiming a blow at an religious and uric liberties d his countrymen end he was naturally desirous of the &stoles tunity to vindicate himself from so foul a charge. Re lield.del it was the right and duty of the state to provide for the *dun Lion of the common people. (Hear, hear ) The aelfs° l° ' by which this might be proved, though perfectly simple : d obvious were th e roost cogent possible . Ingenione rate differed= to what were the ends of government. Boom oit held, very erroneously, that it was the duty of goversadl to meddle with the whole system of human life; to retel l " trade by prohibitions and bounties; agriculture by soMPOI !awe; literature by censorships ; raligiou by penal stamen cat s! tests. Others had gone into the opposite estrus, Isa down the province of government to too narrow LISS Os one point all agreed,—that it was the sacred duty of WI; I meat to take efficient measures for securing the psmeder property of the community ; and that a gove r nment woo. neglected this duty was unconstitutionaL Could le be denied that the education of the common pelvis I ' l '7 . met efficient means of protecting persons and profff% I On this subject, no higher authority or struager tarsies oval s• . be quoted than those of Adam Smith, who wes t friendly to the interference of the statc with the d• • of the ocher and higher orders. But be distinctly Ileue„. 4 f there was a diderence, and particularly in a high) l OITy .aad commercial commanity, between the educates? • higher dams and that of the poor. In the lattskeeet Iprebended the government were deeply cootothed teen • ignorance, he said, was like a leprosy, or some othe r g. , disease, which it was the duty of the public asiree t to stop, and the neglect of this duty led to =WI ~," 6 frightful disorder'. Soaneele bad Smith written Shier!: • a most significant and fearful commentary 011 his words ' furnished by the riots of 1780. (Hear, heat • the woe cause were attributable the riots of this fi el ee. otti i a n g . ham e ; a6 th u cou t. t , regcs of ... "C•p th t e aLSww s ... . g ;' nery,--ou . treges which ten di d above all to deitieSeht.',,,,, the level of the interior animals, Was it pima ble we I that th, se things—which operated as a my on the SO= interests that government was clearly bound to en; , would have taken place in a country were '•v r : d cd mnion Intimate had had his rule h d opsu • education; had been taught to fi,,d vino"