The Express. — London, England, 1853-05-04 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS.—TUE•n•T, MAT 3. TIN Loan Caancat.ton took his seat at 4 o'elsck. PETITIONS PRESENTED. Tna CiLTSTAL Pat tea.—By the Earl of 811AFTES saURY, from a chapel io Kingslaad, against the opening of the Crystal Palace on Sundays. MATNUOTH.—By the Earl of EGLINTON, from a free church in the count) of Ayr, against the continuance of the grant to Maynocith. Tit kNtIrOIITATION. —By the Archbishop of CANTER BURY, from Melbourne pod another plan, against UMW portation to the Australian colonies. BURGHS (SCOTLAND) BILL. Lord PANIIUBE moved the second reading of this' bill, to which he apprehended there would not be one opposition, inasmuch at it involved no principle and altered no practice, the only object being to remove some inem 'lenience, which occur at the election of town councillors. The bill was then read • second time. CHARITABLE TRUST BILL. The LORD CHANCELLOR, in moving the second! reading of this 1011, said it might almost appear to be • scandal to the country that it should have fallen to the lot of any one in the year 18.33, to move the second reading of each • bill, its object being to introduce an etlicieat mode of ariminiateriag and makiag useful, charitable trusts in this country. .The subject had been so often before parliament , that it would be a waste of time to go into any great detail as to what had been dose. It wee now more than 3.) years sieve his noble and learned friend (Lord Brougham). who had been so distinguished by Wens' and ability in reforming sham of this nature, bad! Ant directed attention to the abuses of Comities. la 1818 1 he Int obtained the act of parliament which sonetituted the original charitable commissioners. The superin tending board at present consisted of two or three paid, and two or three unpaid members: but it he. coming necessary to make a change in the constitution ' of the judicial tribunal, the government had taken into its consideration whether an important and useful change might not be made alto in the constitution of the board. The duties of the board would be to preserve • general superintendence over all the charities in the kingdom, without any expense. It would be made imperative en the trustees of all charities to keep regular accounts of all re ceipts end expeadinues, great or small, and annually to de posit • copy with the clerk of the County Court, awl trims- MA another copy to the board la Losdoa, where it would always be acesesible to all parties. He believed that would have • most material effect towards correcting • gnat deal of abuse. Niue-tenths of the abuses were the result of ignorance, and not latended fraud, and when account' were regularly sailed for, sad the attention of competent parties directed to them, who could point ,set erron,the paean abeam woold eosin be corrected. (Hear, hear.) But the beard would ales be Plied ea to perform another function, which would be very useful, and was, he believed, reassaineaded by the 0011BRielitill. It often happened that trustee' who were perieMly kismet did nut know what wane they ought to take ; and it was pro posed that they shauld be at libert the meretarysomina niceties with the board—to ark t heir — advice. The beard might direct them what to do, 'and should indemnify them until they were correeted by • ja:icial tribunal. The bill proposed to give the board power to act in four enumerated cases • Ist, where the objects of the charity had wholly (ruled, s ad it had become impossible to fulfil the intentions of the founder; 2ndly, where the object had not failed, but where the charity had failed, as in the cases he had mentioned, to fulfil, what mast be presumed to be, the intentions of the founder, namely, to do good ; 3rdly, when there were two or more similar, or *early similar, charities, each inadequate for the purpose intended, but which if united might do good; sod, holy, where a charity had been founded above 60 years, bat where the results were totally inadequate, in which case it woe proposed that the board might sanc tion • different application of the fonds. (Hear, hear.) Now, under what safeguards was it proposed to give these powers? First of all, if the trustees concurred in the scheme for altering the aoplicatiou of • particular charity, that scheme would be laid on the table of either house of parliament, and if neither house by a resolution made within 30 days dissented from it, it would become the same as if authorised by a private act. If, on the other hand, the trustees did not concur, then the new scheme was proposed to be laid on the table of either house, and that parliament was to be authorised to do what it did in eases under the Inelosure Colnaliasioo, namely, to pass a public act. (Hear, hear.) Of name, the board ought to ecia-ist of persons the moat eminently responsible; and their conduct *right to be completely before the public. He proposed, therefore, that it should consist of the Lord President of the Council and other members of the Cabioet, with some other gentlemen not holding that position, bet probably members of the House of Commons. To than would be added two legal gentlemen of high character, upon whom of course the more laborious part of the work would fall. Probably more would be required, but it was thought best to commence with only two. In the former bill it had been proposed that the expense of the commission should be de frayed by • small tax upon all the charities; but when that plan came to be investigated it was found to be almost im practicable. Then were no fewer than 28,000 charities under 30/. a year, of which 13,000 were under 51., and many thou ands more were even seder 21. Now just imagine the difficulty of collecting, my twopence in the pound from all those smaller chanties. (Hear, hear.) Of course the thing was out of the question. Again, it had been pro peed to levy the tax only on the larger charities; but that would be hardly fair. Indeed the larger charities had protested against the proposal on the ground that they would derive very little benefit from the measure. Her Majesty's government, them, looking at the question merely in an economical point of view, and at the probable beneficial results to the community, bd . thought that the expose, which could not be more than 3,0001. to 10,0001., should be borne by the country. (Hear, hear.) Objections had been urged against nadir* banisters into the country to *amiss arbitrary and inquisitorial Isaetion• No doubt that was • thilealty, but we were living in a world sur rounded by diMeulties ; sad the good that would probably accrue would far overbalance any objections of that kind, especially as the inquiries were such me it was absolutely ne cessary should be made. Beside*, la the bill of Lord Lyndhurst then wee • presieely similar proposition, except that the barristers were called 'napalms instead of com missioners. He same now to the judicial tribunal to be employed la these mow lie proposed that in cases under 301. they should be referred to the judges of the count courts. He was not without apprehension that they would nut at first dieeharge the duty in all eases quite satisfactorily. In the former bill it was proposed that all cases between 301. aad 1001. should be referred to the Mas ten in Chancery; but he peptised that all above 301. should go at ease to the Court of Chancery. He proposed, however, that the schemes arranged by the judges of the county courts, amt) Men appointment of trustees by them, should always be plead edvertised ; and that no scheme should come intlo until it had received the sanc tion of the beard. Wilt these safeguards, they need not apprehend dim ire pia Toga Rt tive nee to any material in coastwise's. Hei dmjulpeeei that fund* might be trans it/redo wham sammay. to aScial trustees and that all the nmenalle anal be transmitted to the board. These were tae piled* Statures of the bill, which he should be happy saisilt le a saint encomia-., if thought desirable, and he trnshad, thinalma. emir lordships woald have no objection the seam& reading. (Hear, hear.) _ _ The Duke a pavement as that a leas par._ The Bari a CHICHESTER thanked tbe aebli and karma Ma he bagging i die measure, and be thought that In mho the essomive parses proposed to be given to tM semsdednome email be an net of prudence. Lord BROTIOHAII upilimla Or bill, and observed that it was Impiedbis W tersosie Eto osontry in any circa ties elan. mesa* gbh MiSeimals Io dm Moon of the ornandedise. owl padiaraissy semmllless, which had eat ors Ibis goals& Them libisieba sot say acted directly es to ad oil oil ibedlieslosibbli they referred, but Sad redly upon a vat salsa of ether mom where the very mm** of *thy bad podspel reform (Hear.) He beloved that im a majority of imensies the unseen had see boss guilty of wilful alma et milmomelia of the Sandsr but tie evils complained of hod mhos boa neg ligees% him loserance, sad him eisaminers (saar.) eassidend the bill an Int- Lord ST. LE °HARD 8 did not "pee the second reed ing • bet there were various potato us the bill to which he sho uld hesitate long before he gave his consent. The board would *mist of the goveraamst for the time being, sad they wadi inimitably make the business before them a party speedos ; or they would leave it to the two barris ters ; and thou the powers proposed wen such as could not safely be committed to any individuals whatever. (Hear, hear.) In the first place, when the objects of the charity had failed, a very important question would arise, namely, whether the property bad been so dedicated to charity that it mast be applied to some other charitable purpose, or whithet it did sot revert to Its original doper ? (Hear.) Again, with respest to cases where it might be thought that the funds could be more beneficially applied, be sou of opinion that the proposal was fraught with danger. They must remember that the property in such eases had been dedicated to the purples for which it had bees given by persona in wham there wee an absolute dominion over it, and that the law had allowed them to appropriate it to the purposes they bad sheen to select. Where it bad been shown that the monk had astleen btaseficiai parliament bad a ll owe d a r 5 "MUM Ws; end it should be !meas .& bored that it was ht the we of large charities that it would be worth w for persons ti interfere. Hs was far frees saying that tams great tribunal might not be erected to which Imilk SIM might be referred instead of their coming helm paellaweast; but to commit such an autho rity to this heard would be a greater infringement of the rights and law of property than had ever before been attempted. (Hear, hear ) Of coons the matter could be discussed in • select committee, but be could not let the woad thefts per without offering his protest against this part of the mean,., mad without drawing the attention of their lordships to the stringent nature of the powers pro posed to be conferred. (Hear, hear.) He had himself sat arm the commission, and he must Omens by the way that the noble and learned lord (Lord Brougham) had not been a very regular attendant—(laughter)—but he had sat arm the commission, and thought it only fair to confirm what the noble and learned lord had said respecting the blame to be attached to trustees. )(any of the cases were where there was a mall rent Charge upon a large property, and where, not having b ee n claimed for many years, doubts had arisen as to which part of the estate it was chargeable, and whether the Attorney-General ought to institute proceedings Lord BROUGHAM (who in the interim had been hold ing a conversation with • gentleman at the bar of the house) amid that 'kakis' could equal the powers of imaginathin , szt by the nohlo and learned lord. (L aug ht er .) H e .e..) had consulted a member of the COMI3II/.• don, who had nanadrd him of an arrangement that he (Lord Brougham) and Lord St. Lronards should attend in tarn, and his (the commissioner's) impression was that he (Lore Brougham) had 'twirled the oftener of the two. 1 1 Earl TALBOT observed that he knew of a charity whieh had been put to an expense of near 2001. to appoiat a new trustee. Ile hoped the noble and !ranted lord would make provision to prevent charities being put to such as ei 'lbebill was then and a second tine. CATHEDRAL APPOINTMENTS BILL. Earl GRANVILLE moved the Second re adi ng of this bill. The Bishop of SALISBURY supported the motion. The motion was agreed to. SIIERIFF AND COMMISSARY COURTS (BERWICKSHIRE) BILL. On the motion of Lord rsantiza this bill was read a second time. LUNATICS' CARE AND TREATMENT BILL. On the order of the day for bringing up the report on this bill, Lord St. I.EONARDS said this bill would make eaten sire alterations with regard to the administration of the es tates of lunatics. The expenses were proposed to be raised almost wholly by a graduated scale, according to the amount of the property to be administered. Instead of separate commissions of lunacy, there would be a general commis sion, which would save great expense. In some eases •jury would be required, but in others, where that could be safely done, the fury would be dispensed with. After there had been a finding by the commission, power was given to dis pense with a grant from the crown, which hail been always necessary for the lunatic, and which led to very greatexpense. Thatexpense would now altogether ins great manure he put an end to. After the muter had mode his report, objections to the report or confirmations to the re port were swept away, but perfect power was given to the party to bring before the Chancellor any objection he might have. One great source of expense in these cases hod been the inquiry as to the next of kin. The Lord Chancellor had power given him by the bill to dispense with the attendance of the next of kin. In that way a great saving would be effected. Ica many cases, too, the Lord Chancellor weal& bays the power of making an order without the afflandenee of either solicitors or counsel. Great care was Liken by the bill that there should be a sufficient visitation of the boa* under the care of the court, end then the bill proeseded to make provisions which he treated would be fouled beneficial to the estate. There was also a power to charge a sum on acontingent interest for the maintenance of a lunatic, to be paid out of the sum when the contiagency should arise. There were cues in which a lunatic had a small sum of money, not sufficient to provide for his maintenance, and he had friends who would be willing to provide for the maintenance if the capitol were delivered up to them. The bill gave power to the Lord Chancellor to order that to be done. Then it very often happened that the head of a faind'y was struek'with lunacy, and the family was left without money though there might be money in the house, or a consider aide balance at the banker', but they could not touch either the one or the other. The bill gave power to the Lard Chancellor to deal with those cases. It also gave power in eases of partnership to direct a sale of the partnership pro perty, and to direct the winding up of the partnership concerns. Power mu also given to execute powers over property when that was necessary for the benefit of the lunatic. He trusted, therefore, without going further into the provisions of the bill, that it would be found to operate well. The neat bill was a bill to consolidate and amend the law in relation to county asylums. The experience of many years had been brought to bear on this bill. A great number of communications had been received with regard to the provisions of this bill from all parts of the country, and he thought he might say that every one of the suggestions made had been considered. Under this bill cuts of lunatics like Mr. Feargus O'Connor would be met; these being persons who were not destitute, and who wandered about in a state of insanity to their own manifest danger and to the danger of the public at large ; but sufficient precautions were provided, while they would be taken into safe custody, by an easy process, that their property would not be suffered to be misappropriated or mismanaged. With regard to the commissions of lunacy, some alteration', tae result of the experience and observa tion of many years, were now proposed. One difficulty was met which bad led to great inconvenience. It was now provided that when a person was suddenly afflicted by lu• nary so as to become dangerous, he could not be taken to a lunatic asylum except on the certificates of two medical men; but under this bill the arrar.gement would be that in such cases, requiring urgency, the certificate of one medical man should suffice; but, again, proper caution would not be neglected, for it would be provided that not later than three days after such detention, two medical men should be called in, and should be required to furnish a certificat: as to the state of mind of the patient. These were provisions which,lhe thought, would amount to great improvements, by getting rid of teem' meekest inconveniences. Another point was with reord to persons who were in fact not lone , ties, but who were detained in asylums under old certifi cates. This bill would give the Lord Chancellor power in such eases to require the persons detaining such alleged lunatics to furnish a general account of their conduct ; and this was a provision which, in more eases than their lord ships would be willing to conceive possible, would at once show, if there was improper detention, what was the cause of it ; the cause being, he believed, the conspiracy of other persons to obtain and enjoy those alleged lunatics' property. This bill, which might be riaaarded as soother recommenda tion, would entirely do away with the exceptional position hitherto occupied by Bethlehem Hospital. (Hear, hear.) He was bound to say that the governors of that hospital had not shown the slightest objection to this bill ; and the fair inference, which it was but just to state, was that they were not afraid of the light of day being thrown on that institution, and that they were willing that it should be visited, and examined, and controlled and improved just like any other lunatic asylum in the country. This mesa mire would, therefore, as a whole, he thought, give a new tone to the administration of lunacy, protect it from its abuses, and give to lunatics every benefit and every ears which Puttee and benevolence could suggest. (Hear, hear.) There was, however, one duty in connexion with this subject, which devolved specifically upon the go vernment, and to which he would earnestly call their atten tion. He referred to the immediate necessity of a measure with respect to the criminal lunatics of this country. (Hear, hear.) The law did not stand well on this subject; and if the government would do its duty, and he sou far from say ing that as yet they had neglected the duty, there was every reason to hope that our administration with regard to cri minal lunatics would be more perfect and satisfactory than that of any other country in Europe. (Hear.) Provision must be made for the separate care and maiatenance of cri minal lunatics; sad the expense, be believed, would be much leas than their lumbibip generally were in the habit of sup posing. The oesstay was already at considerable expense in this respect; andl nese further charge, with a proper dis tribution, having 01111 asylum for the north, and another for the south, in addition to the accommodation at Bethlehem, would provide all that was necessary to a perfect system. There was one class of the so-called criminal lunatics who must be treated with great caution—he alluded to those un happy women who, after childbirth, and being in a state of mental aberration, committed, a crime he would not call it, but a deed, at which humanity shuddered. (liar, hear.) These women ought to be sent to hospitals, and taken every possible care of, but as matters now stood they were treated as criminals, and tried for infanticide. (Hear, hear.) He need not now press these subjects farther on their lordships' attention. He would probably have taken the course which he was now taking had his noble Wend (Lord Derby) remained in care ; and be trusted that the noble lord who now conducted the government, would take as deep an interest in the question. His being in or out of office did not affect the question; it was a social question of the deepest importance ; and it would be an honour to the government, of whatever party, in whose administration each measures became law. (Hear, hear.) The LORD CHANCELLOR was understood to say that he would not run the chow, by offering any com ments, of being supposed to divalent from any of the views of the noble and learned lord; and he would content himself by saying that he believed the bill would effect very desirable amendments in the law. The Earl of HARROWBY also peened upon their lord ships' attention the that there was of a change in the kw Wrath* aefnlaal lewtics, and ha hoped her Ma- Wa tientimat weld take the subject into their cowl- Lord ST. LEONARDS enforced what he had before ob served, by stating that in his visits to lunatic asylums he bad often heard lunatics complain to him of their being thrown into the company of other lunatics convicted of crimes; and there could lbe no doubt of their extreme aver gall to tomb a system. It was a great mistake to suppose that because a maa had so far lost his mind as to be in eer , tain menses a Issatic, therefore he was not deeply impressed with anything affecting moral conduct. (hear.) The report was then received ; as also were the reports on the Lunatic Asylums Bill and the report on the Lunacy Regulation Bill. Third readings fired for Monday. LAND IMPROVEMENT (IRELAND) BILL. Lord CANNING, having proposed that the discumion on this bill should be postponed until the stage of the report, when he would bring up !amendments, an objection was takes to the delay, and general objections were offered to ths bill, by Lord Beaumont; but after a conversation be tween these noble lords, Lord Montesgle, Lord Wicklow, Lord Clanricarde,asid Lord Dofferin, the motion was agreed to; and the bill having been put in committee P.O forma, was reported, and flied for an early third reading. SOUTH SEA AND OTHER ANNUITIES COMMU- TATION BILL. Earl ORANVILLB, in moving the third reading of the bill, said that be would not carry on►hie intention at that boar (S o'clock), and in the then state of the house (not ten peers were present) of making a statement of the objects and scope of skis bill ; but if a discussion should be entered on he would reserve to himself the right of offering souse comments in the way of a reply. Their lordships were aware they could not make any alterations in a bill of thi s kind sent up from the Commons, and therefore, he ap prehended, a discussion was not desired ; and it might be the less desired as what had fallen on the previous evening from the noble and learned lord (Lord Bt. Leonard.) had suggested that a supplementary meuure with regard to the funds of suitors in Chancery might become necessary, and the views of their lordships might then be expressed. The Earl of DERBY put it to the noble earl if be was takings becoming n.,ure with this bill ? Not a word had been said on it since it had come up to their lordships' house, although many noble lords had been desirous of ex pressing an early opinion of it ; and he now put it to the noble lord, whether, in the then state of the house, it would be decent that evening to read the bill a third time ? It might be that their lordships had no right to alter the bill; but really for it to hemmed stsb sikatio in this way would be to attach to their lordships' house a character which he might say, without using disrespectful terms, the noble earl himself could not possibly d• sin. Earl GRANVILLE was only emoultlng public soave ' Diener, sad, as bethought:their lordships* wishes. Great public inconvenience would be owed bydelaying.theparring of • bill of this kind ; and if it was wished, he wield go into a statemeat then, at once. The Marquis of SALISBURY eaggeoted a delay until to-morrow (this diy). Lord REDESDALE.—Ah, but we don't lit on Wednee days. (Hear, hear.) The Earl of DERBY thought that if there wee to be a supplementary measure, they ought to discuss the matter so as to see what should be the character of that measure. At all events, the Home of Lords ought to know what was going to be done. The Earl of WICKLOW thought the matter was clear. The house wee thin, because every noble lord knew that the home could not alter the bill; and the ssoble earl (Derby) shared the responsibility for that this attendance with the government. If the noble earl wanted a dismis sion, it could be taken ; there the bill was, and the noble President of the Council had said that he was ready to go on, if it was wished. Alter a few words from Lord MOXTZAGLS, to the effect that though their lordships weld sot alter them bills, they were, nevertheless, bound to Camel them, the discussions in their lordshipe boom on the property tax being Instanced as debates of great importance, end of great influence on national finance, _ _ Earl GRANVILLE agreed to give a formal statement of the bill, and proceeded acoordingly to describe its more fa miliar features—only three or four peers being present when he began. Lord MONTEAGLE must repeat his conviction that it would be highly objectionable to allow this bill to pass a third reading without discussion. Such a mode of proceed ing would hove been opposed to all principle, it would have been contrary to public convenience, and therefore at the risk of wearying their lordships, he must be allowed to state now his objections to this most extraordinary bill. He apprehended that no one would dispute the inspolicy of meddling with the public securities without a settled or certain motive, or without the prospect of obtaining in return some corresponding and clear good, but here they were going to add to the evil, by meddling with the funds in a manner the most absurd. The bill he was satisfied would inflict great in jury upon the public interest, because the three alterna tives which it held out to the landholder were not only dif ferent in principle, but in themselves antagonistic in spirit, and it was utterly impossible to ascertain what good the bill could produce, though it was easy to foresee what diffi culties it would lead to. ii.;ii:oftiliViillinade some explanations, and The bill was then read a third tins; and passed, and the house adjourned at nine o'clock. ROUSE OF UOMMONS.—TULSDAY, MAY 3. The firzmuts took the chair at the mad lour. PRIVATE BUSINESS. THE EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY EVENING, MAY 4, 1853. LONDON AND FINSBURY IMPROVEMENTS AND RAILWAY BILL. Sir I. DUKE movedibe postpon em ent of the second reading of this bill till the 12th inst. Agreed to. MANCHESTER AND SALFORD EDUCATION BILL. Mr. BROTHERTON postponed the second reading of this bill to the 2nd June. PUBLIC BUSINESS. PETITIONS PRESENTED. LAW or MARIIIAOL—By Mr. LO WE , from Gloucester and other places, for Iva'Ming marriage with a deceased wife's sister. Tun BUDGET.—By Mr. JIADFIELD, from Sheffield, against the proposed alteration in trade licenses. Captain SCOBELL, from 133 licensed victuallers, in the city and borough of Bath, agalnq the proposed license duty on selling tobacco, which would in some cases amount to the full value of tobacco consumed on their promisee. Mr. GREVILLE, from 4GS owners and occupiers of land in the county of L .ngford, prating that the income tax may not he imposed upon Ireland. Mr. COBDEN, from members of the Atheneum, Manchester, fur total repeal of the ad vertisement duty. OPENING OF THE CRYSTAL PALACE ON SCNDAV4.—By Mr. BUCK,from Premington. Devon; Mr. DUN LOP,from inhabitants of the parish of All Saints, Liverpool ; Mr. COBDEN, from Yorkshire; Lord HOTIIAM, from some remote places in the East Riding of Yorkshire, against the opening of the Crystal Palace on Sundays. INTOXICATING DRINK.—By Mr.L. HEYWORTH,from Dearham, to prohibit the sale of on Sundays. MAYNOOTH.—By Mr. CRAUFUItD, from tho session of the relief church of a place in Scotland, for the withdrawal of all endowments to popery, and especially for the repeal of the Maynooth grant. Sir J. DUKE, from the East London Protestant Alliance, for repeal of the Maynooth Bill. Tits O Enucastox BILL.—By Mr. COB DEN, from Brothertoa, Yorkshire, against. MINISTER,' MONEY.—By Mr. MEAGHER, from the inhabitants of Trinity parish, and other parishes in Water ford, for the abolition of. -------- SCOTCILL UNITZRSITY TESTS.—By Mr. CRAUFURD, from the ministers, elders, teachers, sod members of the relief church of the Burgh of Irvine; Sir C. MONT GOMERY, from the free church presbytery of Biggar and Peebles; Mr. HASTLE, from the Milos bearers of the united presbyteries' congregation of Oabstiaw-street, Pais ley; Mr. FERGUSON, from Leslie; for abolition of. ATTORNEYS' CIRTITICATZ DCTY.—EIy Mr. CHILD, from attornies and proctors of Tunnel!, Staffordshire, and from Bonham, Staffordshire, pra,ying for repeal of. PCDLIO HOUSES (SCOTLAND) BILL —By Sir J. ANDER SON, from the Free Soath Church, Stirling ; Mr. FER GUS, from Commissioners of Supply of the county of Fife ; in favour of. REPRESENTATION OF STALTBRIDGE.—By Iitfr.CHEET HAM, from inhabitants of the town of Stalybridge, to be represented in parliament ; also from Commissioners of Police of the said town ; to the same effect HACKNEY CARRIAGEd BILL.—By Sir J. DUKE, from proprietors of upwards of 1,000 omnibuses, against clauses, praying it may be referred to Select Committee ; Sir J. SHELLEY, from hackney carrimge proprietors of the metropolitan district; against the Hackney Carriage Bill. MERCHANT SHIPPING BILL-111 Mr. SCOBELL ; also one signed by 1,616 masters and mates (seamen chief') em ployed in the coasting trade), against the 29th and 37th clauses, which, If passed into law, they believe would be oppressive to them, and endanger the maritime superio- rity of England. WINE DUTIES. Mr. W. 0. STANLEY asked if the regulations of the custom-house would allow wines to be bottled in bond for home consumption, under the same restrictions u were now allowed for re•raportation. Mr. WILSON said, the subject had been under the con sideration of the Customs ; but the report they had made to the T ry pointed out a great number of practical dif ficultly' in the matter, and it was not yet decided en. He did not think, from the difficulties in the way, that the pri vilege could be conceded for wines for home consumption. IMPORT DUTY ON CIIICORY. Sir J. TROLLOPS said a deputaironlniwXited on the Chancellor of the Exchequer on this subject some time ago; be wished to kuow whether an answer could be given. Mr. WILSON said, the claim of the chicory graven had had the beet consideration of the government ; and the Chancellor of the Exchequer had come so the conclusion that it would be fair, considering thit forward state of the preparation of land for the growth of chicory in the present year, to continue the duty at 4s. per cwt., or 41. per ton, till October, 1854. That aliened to be aduty which would fairly meet the case. He ought to mention that the present duty, which was 201. per ton, was entirely prohibitory, and had no reference whatever to the present value of the ar ticle, but was fixed at a time when the duties on coffee were 9d. id 1.5 d. per pound. 84 J. GRAHAM brought up the report of a committee, which was ordered to be printed. NOTICES OF MOTIONS. THE IRISH CHURCH. ._____ Mr. G. 11. MOORE, on the 81st, to sore fore select oessmittee oa the ecclesiastical revenues of the church of irelead. BARNSTAPLE. Mr. O. STANLEY,oiTtWellitia7a — a . • addrns for a com mission to inquire into corrupt practices at Barnstaple. SELECT COMMITTEES. Mr. EWART (day not beard), to move for • committee to inquire whether the construction of select committees might not be improved by diminishing the number of mem bers on each. ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS. Mr. COLLIER postponed till the 31st his motion on this subject. NORWICH ELECTION. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE postponed till the same day his mo tion respecting the Mimi& election petition. COAL MINES. Mr. HUTCHINS, on the 31st, eclat committee to in quire into the numerate accidents in coal mines. AT ELECTIONS. Mr. C. BElt LESLEY, on Tuesday, bill to ',men the ex pense of candidata@ at elections, by prohibiting the employ ment of bands, banners, and other emblems. (Laughter.) THE SYDNEY MINT. Mr. HUME asked whether the staff and machinery for the branch mint at Sydney had been sent out, or when they would be despatched ? He stated that considerable anxiety existed on the subject in the colony. Mr. PEEL said though no part of the establishment had yet been sent out, no time had been lost in acting upon the Treasury minute for establishing a branch mint at Sydney. Msjor Ward hail been appointed the chief officer, and had been directed to put himself in communication with Sir John Herschel', the Master of the Mint. Mr. C. BERKELEY asked whether the Secretary of the Treasury had received a memorial from Sarah Allen and Anna Maria Randall, which had been sent more than four months ago ; and if so, why no notice had been taken of it. (Lsughtorl Mr. WILSON said the memorialists asked to have some property handed over to them which would otherwise go to the crown. The matter had been referred to the Queen's Proctor; but very extensive inquiries were nectseary, which were still ping on. LiOIITINO OF THE MOUSE. Mr. HUME complained that this lights of the house were more glaring and the heat more oppressive het night than he had known them since the adoption of the new system. He wished to know it any alteration had been made t Sir W. MOLESWORTH was aware of none. Perhaps the heat was more oppressive last night on account of the greater number of persons present. Mr. BOUVERIE said he was perhaps as well qualified tojudge as any one, laying been in the chair nine hours; and he thought the atmosphere was as natural as it was pos sible for the sir of a room to be, or he maid not ham sat for so many hours. THE LATE CENSUS. Mr. BUTT asked when the census papers of 1851 would be laid before parliament? They had been delayed a year beget than usual; and the house had a right to complain of the exceedingly dilatory manner in which the duty had been discharged. Viscount PALMERSTON said he had made inquiries into the subject. The house must be aware that the ar rangement of such a complicated mass of details required not may great time, but great accuracy. (Hear, hear.) A very considerable time must be necessary to place those materials in inch a shape as the house required, and se might render them useful. No unneceseary delay whatever bad taken place ; the returns were much more complicated than these made in 1841. Immediately after Whitsuntide the papers would be ready for presentation. CHURCH RATES. Lord J. RUSSELL said he had promised Sir W. Clay to name a day oa which he might bring before the house the question of church rates. If instead of Thursday, the hon. baronet would take Monday nett, the government prece dence would be given op on that day. Sir W. CLAY said he was only too happy to comply with the suggestion. FOREIGN REFUGEES.. Mr. PHINN asked whether any directions or instruc tions had been given, or any warrant issued, by the Secre tary of State, since the accession of the present government, authorising the opening of the letters of foreign refugees in England. _ . . Viscount PALMERSTON—No each Instructions or orders have been given ; and as far as my knowledge ex tends, no letter addressed to that individual—for of course I know who is alluded to—(hear, hear)—has been opened ; nor has any letter addressed to any foreirn refugee, as far as lam informed. This has certainly not been done since we were in office, nor am I aware that it has been done at all. (Cheep.) THE COUNTY FRANCHISE. Mr. L. KING, in moving for leave to bring in a bill to make the franchise in countie• in England and Wales the same as that in boroughs, said that the principle had been so frequently sanctioned by the house that he could not doubt that they would now affirm it. He regretted that the measure bad not been carried before the lath dissolution. He now brought forward the question under more favour. able circumstances, many new members not being pledged against it. He also brought it forward nutlet the auspices of a government of progress, who had introduced a budget which had shown the Chancellor of the Exchequer to be a worthy successor of Sir Robert Peel. (Hear, hear.) He had no doubt the clue of electors whom the bill proposed to create would be supporters of free trade measures. He hoped he should not be told that this wan not the season for introducing such a measure, be cause tkby had a promise of reform from the government. He was sick of such promises. One of those promises of the noble lord had been ful filled in such a way that the country would rather it had not been earned out at all. (Hear, hear.) He hoped the government would not oppose the introduction of the bill. Lord J. RUSSELL said he did not mean to enter into the discussion of the question before the house. (Hear, hear.) It must be evident to the house that the extension of the borough franchise to counties, which would make a great change in the franchise, was a question connected with the whole system of representation in this country. It was a matter, therefore, which should not be taken up lightly. Whether the change proposed was good or bad, whether it was advisable or otherwise, it was a change of great importance, and would affect the representation of that house to a considerable extent. (Hear, hear.) Such being the cue, and seeing,that with the important measures before the house, it would be impossible to introduce such e bill without discussing the whole question of the represen tation and interfering with other important subjects, he thought it would be better not to raise that question at the present time. (Hear, hear.) Ho could only say that the present government were disposed to consider the whole sn'Aject of the representation. (Hear, hear.) They were duly impressed with its importance, and when they brought the question forward it would be at a time and in a manner to occupy the serious attention of the house. (Hear, hear.) Sir DE L. EVANS thought that after what had taken place heretofore with regard to this question, his hon. friend had no option but to bring it forward again in the present session. (Hear, hear.) He trusted, however, that under present circumstances he would not press it to a divi sion. (Hear, hear.) Mr. HUME said that his hon. friend only did what he promised in submitting the question again to the house; bnt after the pledge of the noble lord, and the declarations of the government en the subject of the representation, he thought his hon. friend would do wisely in not p 'ng the motion to a division, because a division, under present cir cumstances, would not indicate the feeling of the house. (Hear, hear.) Mr. HADFIELD said that in a population of 27,000,000 a majority of the representatives was returned by 174,000 electors. That was a state of things which could not con tinue long without a remedy. (Hear.) Mr. L. KING said that, after what had fallen from his friends who always supported the motion, he would not press it. (Hear, hear.) The motion was then withdrawn. SIR F. SMITH AND THE CIIATHAM ELECTION. Sir J. SHELLEY having called attention to the fillow ing standing order of the house—" That, if it shall appear that any person bath been elected or returned a member of this house, or endeavoured so to be, by bribery or any other corrupt practices, this house will proceed with the utmost severity against all each persons es shall have been wilfully concerned in such bribery or other corrupt practices" and to the following resolution of the Chatham election committee--" That it was proved to the committee that Joseph Greathead, an elector of Chatham, had been bribed by a situation as a letter-carrier in the Post-oflice obtained for his son Charles Greathead, by Sir John Mark Frederic Smith ; " rose to move, that the Attorney-General be directed to prosecute the said Sir John Mark Frederic Smith for bribery at the last election at Chatham. The committee, in their report to the house, had stated also that they had reason to believe that Stephen Mont had been guilty of perjury, end the hon. member for East Surrey (Mr. Aleock) thereupon moved that the Attorney- General be directed by the house to prosecute the said Stephen Meant, and In a very full house that motion was carried. Now it was his (Sir J. Shelley's) opinion, that if the house was right in directing a prosecution for perjury against Mast, they ought also to direct that a prosecution for bribery be instituted against Sir. F. Smith. (Hear.) The members of the Chatham committee had performed their duties with great independence, and he trusted the House of Commons would stand by the com mittees and their reports. There were many precedents for taking this course. It had been taken in the use of ' Ilchester, in 1803 ; of Penrhyo, in 1807, and again in 1819; of Dublin City, in 1821; of Ipswich, in 1834; and of Great Yarmouth in the same year. It might be said that the bribery in these cases was bribery by a direct gift of money, but would any person say that a gift of a situation with 501. or 601. a year was not as clear a cue of bribery as a , gift of money ? (Hear.) .Whether it was or was not biibery lK a judge and jury determine. He confessed that were he in the position of Sir F. Smith, he would rather run the risk of being found guilty by a jury than be pointed at u the person who had been found guilty of bribery by a committee of the House of Commons. (Hear, hear.) The subject was a painful one, and he should not say a word to hurt the feelings of Sir F. Smith. He had impersonal feeling whatever in the matter, and he only brought it forward from a sense of public duty. (Ranh hea ug r )He thought they would succeed in putting on end to corrupt practices if they did not proceed against the rich man who bribed as well as against the poor man who received bribes. (Hear, hear.) Having said thus, he would now leave the matter in the hands of the House of Commons. (Hear, hear.) Sir F. THESIGER had hoped that some member of the government would have favoured the hours with an expre► non of their views on the motion which the hon. baronet brought forward. The hon. baronet had explained clearly and fairly the grounds on which he felt it to be his duty to bring forward this question, and he felt satisfied the honourable baronet was not instigated by personal or political motives on the present occasion, and this being the case, the bon. baronet would be gratified to find that the house would probably feel that it was not its duty to interfere in the manner ho suggested. The hon. baronet said that the committee reported that Sir F. Smith was guilty of bribery. That was not the report of the com mittee. The report of the committee was, "That Joseph Oreathead, an elector of Chatham, had been bribed by a situation as a letter-carrier procured for his son by Sir F. Smith," and the circumstances of the ease would - account for the committee's expressing themselves in this manner. The hon. baronet had quoted precedents where the home directed prosecutions for bribery, but he would venture to say that there was no instance in which the house in terfered unless there was a cue of flagrant and gross corruption, and of such • character as to make it the imperative duty of the house to interfere and direct • prosecution. (Hear, hear.) With great deference for the committee, he ventured to say that he could not have come to the same conclusion that they did ; and he hoped the law officers of the crown were present to hear him avert that there was no bribery, in the legal sense of the term, committed by Sir F. Smith, which would render him amenable to the Act. Under the 7th section of Os act of George 111., c. 24, which was the net sought to be applied to the ease, it would be necessary to show that the candidate had corrupted or procured the vote of a party by the gift of some office or emolument; and no court in this country would hold that where a voter, without any inducement or improper in fluence, had promised his vote originally, and bad adhered to that original promise, anything which intervened—pro. Tided the voter himself declared that it did not influence him—could be considered bribery. He trusted he had said enough to induce the house to reject the motion, and not to pass so heavy a censure on the party against whom it was directed. ldr. \V. WILLIAMS was quite sure no member of that house felt a greater abhorrence than he did of bribery and corruption being employed to obtain a seat there ; but his difficulty in this case was that it was a notorious fact that a vast mass of members obtained their seats by means more objectionable and reprehensible than those under conside ration. (Hear.) It they prosecuted Sir Frederick Smith they would, ho feared, stand in no better e s ti ma ti on with the public than they did at present. They ought to deal with the whole question of bribery, and pass an act of parliament, which would make it penal for a member to obtain his scat by improper means. (Hear, hear.) Many hon. members had confessed before the committees that they had spent thousands, where hundreds would have sufficed under e better system. It would be most consonant with the meta' tenanco of the character of the house to pass this case by; end assoollas possible to see if there were any means by which they could put an cod to the system. Mr. BRAMSTON said, having been a member of the committee, be wished to say a very few words on that occa sion. At the same time, ke confessed he almost doubted whether it were right for a member of the committee to de fend the course which bad been pursued before the house. (No, no.) The tribunal up stairs being a judicial tribunal, and that house not being a court of appeal, it seemed to him that if he were to address the house in reference to the reasons an which the committee formed their decision, he might be speaking carom non jodia. He might observe, however, that the duty of the committee was to look at the whole evidence which came before them, and that upon that evidence they came to their decision. He must add that it was proved by various witnesses to be quite impossible for any candidate to stand for Chatham without giving pro mises ; and the question was, whether the house had not, by forming a constituency of that peculiar character which Chatham and the other deckysrd towns possessed, become partakers of the crimes of the candidates—(hear)—whether they bad not by their legislative proceedings done that which tended to corrupt and destroy the character of the inhabitants ; whether they had not at the same time laid a snare which no candidate who stood for one of these places could help falling into ; and whether it would not be their duty on another occasion to take steps to correct these evils. He thought, however, that under 'listing circum stances it could nut be consistent with the dignity of that house to order the prosecution of a man for a crime to which they themselves had been privy. (Hear, hear.) Mr. A. PELLATT said, as a member of the committee, he felt himself place .I in a peculiar situation. If called upon to vote on this question ou abstract principles of justice, he must go into th, lobby with the hon. baronet (Sir J. V. Shelley) • but if asked whether or not the motion should be withdrawn, ho would reply in the affirmative. He was never in his life called upon to perform a duty under more painful circumstances than when sitting as a member of the committee ' • for al though he felt it his dutytojoin in the decision, he felt that the grounds of it were trivial in comparison with the cir cumstances of some other elections. He felt that it would be better to deal with the whole question of bri bery, including the eases of agents and receivers, than to visit the whole vengeance of the house on the head of the late member fur Chatham. There could be no doubt about the law of the question, and according to the law Sir F. Smith bad been declared auilty of bribery. If the motion came to a division, he must vote in its favour. Mr. NEWDEGATS had heard 311 the evidence, which the bon. baronet had not, and his belief was that Sir F. Smith had offered tho situation without intending it as a bribe, but that Mr. Greathead had been influenced in his vote by that offer. Sir F. Smith was by no means so bid as many that had come before the house, and he should there fore not support the motion. Mr. PIOOTT hoped, after the opinion so generally ex pressed by the house, the hon. baronet would consent to withdraw his motion. Mr. M. SMITH admitted the prevalence of per jury and bribery at the last Chlthum election, but did not see that any good would result from the success of the pre sent motion. Mr. W. J. FOX said he attached little importance to the motion before the house, whether successful or not, but he rose to reply to the challenge which he understood to have been thrown out by the hon. awl learned member opposite. He understood the hon. and learned member ta say that no member of that house was free from solicitations ter go vernment appointments, and tbst all bad in turn procured them for their constituents. Now, (or his own part, he could say that he had never obtained such appointments, nor had he ever received a solicitation from any of Isis constituents. (Hear, hear.) He had no doubt many hon. members could make the same statement, but lie had thought it right that the challenge of the hon. and learned member should not go forth unanswered. As for the motion itself he feared that people out of doors would take it for one of those rare ebullitions of morality in which the house indulged without its leading to any result. The only proper remedy was some general measure which should strike at the root of the evil. Mr. T. BUNCOMBE said the house ought before it acceded to this motion to consider what a serious thing it was to undertake a criminal prosecution against an indi vidual for bribery. It was not the decision of the corn , mitten they were to look to, but whether there was evi denee to go before ajurpufficient to induce them to convict Sir F. Smith. Ho (Mr. Buncombe) believed that there was not. (Hear, hear.) In the Derby case a man named Morgan was prosecuted, and pleaded guilty, but what did the jury do ? They said (in effect) " Really the House of Commons is so steeped to the chin in corruption and bribery that although we find Morgan guilty we recommend him to mercy." Then what did the judge say? "This Morgan has been guilty of a heinous offence, but so have other people before him. Go about your business and never do so again." (Cheers and laughter.) That was the end of Morgan. (Hear, bear.) He did not believe, how ever, that that would be the case with Sir F. Smith, for the jury would not find him guilty. If the feeling of the chair man and commi.tee was worth anything, let them pause to consider what those gentlemen bad said. They had said that they found Sir F. S.nith guilty of bri bery because they were obliged to do so under the strict letter of the act, but they in addition gave their opinion that the ease should not be prosecuted. He thought it very inconvenient that members of committees should be obliged to vindicate their decisions in that house, as he was satisfied they bad discharged their duty conscientiously, and he thought the public had a right to be grateful fir one portion of their report—not the miserable case of Sir F. Smith—but their report that the electors of Chatham were so dependent on government that it was impossible they could fairly exercise the franchise, and ought therefore be disfranchised. Under these circumstances he thought that the present case ought not to be proceeded with. They had that evening had a motion by the hon. member for East Surrey, for making the franchise uniform in counti. s and boroughs, and his hon. friend had withdrawn his motion because the minister had promised a large and comprehen sive measure of reform. He (Mr. Buncombe), although he had seconded the motion, advised his honourable friend, under tte circumstances, to withdraw it. The test of the present administration would be the manner in which they dealt with these questions, for they must not only deal with the extension of the franchise, but also with the system of corruption which had been so well exposed before the cm. mittee. If they dealt well, depend on it they would be entitled to public gratitude, and therefore, as both parlia mentary reform, and these corruptions on our representative system must be dealt with under a new reform bid, he would ' ask was it worth while, steeped as they ware in corruption, either in former days or is the pr ent—(a laugh)—to lose time with such prosecutions as that they were then discuss ing ? He did not think the house would raise itself in pub lic estimation by persisting with this motion. Mr. W. 0. STANLEY, who with difficulty obtained a hearing, was understood to express his regret that a late high law officer of the crown should express his opinion that a general system of corruption prevailed amongst members of that house. (Oh, oh.) Mr. HEYWOOD expressed his conviction that Chatham was thoroughly corrupt, but still he could not see the expe diency of the present motion. He felt bound to join in the general call on the hon. baronet for its withdrawal. Sir J. SHELLEY said that the hon. and learned mem ber opposite had said that the house should look especially to the honour and integrity of its members. That was his (Sir J. Shelley's) object in making his motion. (Hear.) As to the observations about the report of the committee, he had stated before that he made the motion without read ing the evidence, being satisfied that the report was suffi cient. Looking at the case of the poor man Mount, he thought it would not be fair if the house did not take no tice of the rest of the report also, and therefore he had brought this case before the house. The hon. and learned member hod appealed to the law officers of the crown, and he (Sir J. Shelley) would add that if the noble lord who represented the government in that house felt strongly on the subject of reform, an opinion might have fairly been expected from him also. He (Sir J. Shelley) would venture to say that the poople out of doors would be much astonished that not ono member of the government had said a word during the debate. He had been urged to withdraw his motion, and he might have done so had he received an assurance similar to that which had influenced his hon. friend the member for East Sur rey. But not one member of the government had conde scended to say one word, and therefore, although on any other occasion he would have been most happy to study the convenience of the house, he did not think that on the pre sent occasion, and in the absence of any expression of opinion from the government, he should be performing his duty did he not persist in asking the opinion of the house on his resolution. Lord .1. RUSSELL—I own I did not think that this was a case in which the opinion of the government should be used to sway the opinion of the house. (Hear, hear.) It appeared to me that the course I ought to pursue was, to endeavour to procure the best advice for my colleagues and myself, in order that we might bo prepared with a cor rect view of the law. Accordingly, I have consulted the law officers of the crown, and they have given their opi nion from the report and evidence that there are grounds for a prosecution—(hear, hear)—but at the same time they will not answer for its success before a jury. They think that there is evidence to go before a court of law, showing that Sir F. Smith has been guilty of bribery. (Bear, hear.) That was the first question I thought it my duty to put, but another question, which concerns the house much more, was as to what was the meaning of the report of the com mittee. lowa that that report appeared to have some ambiguity in it, and I cannot say that that ambiguity has been removed by the observations of members of the com mittee during the present discussion. It would appear on the face of the report that the committee were of opinion that Sir F. Smith had been guilty of bribery in inducing a voter of Chatham to give him hie support by the promise of a place in the pest office. The words, however, will ad mit of another interpretation, and if that interpretation be right, then Sir F. Smith has done no more than ootain this situation for Greathead without intending to influence his vote,and without the smallest reference to theelection. Now the latter would hardly be a circumstance upon which the committee would think right to report; but, at the same time. it was difficult to understand from the chairman and members of the committee who have spoken what had really been their intention in making their report. (Hear, hear.) One member said that the committee were bound to come to the resolution recorded, and another said that there should be no prosecution for bribery, on the ground that the state of the constituency was such that no person could be a candidate without being led into corrupt promises of this kind. That is a statement to which I must demur; for I can uaderstand it being said—although it would be an unfounded statement—that a candidate could not g s to Chatham without being so beset with applications tor ap pointments in the dockyard, that ho could not *roil being led into temptation. But that there should be sash temptation at Chatham as to oblige a can did ate to e brib e voters by situations as letter carriers, i s a statement that appear, to me to be entirely without fiundatim. I cannot imagiao that in Chatham, 05910 than any other borough, a man cannot be a candi data without promising office. But tiers another mem ber of the committee says that Sir F. Smith (11,1 not intend to corrupt Greathead, and would not vote for the motion on that ground. I give that gentleman full credit for conscientious conviction, and he is quite right in W s vote if such be his belief. But what I cannot understand is, how a person so thinking could have been a party to that report, because it really appears to me that it places the house in a situation of great difficulty. (Hear, hear.) If Sir F. Smith bad no corrupt intention in iuflueueing th e vote then the whole matter of offence is wiped oat, and there ought not to be any report charging Sir p, Smith with a crime. Some say that Sir F. Smith has ecteally been guilty of bribery, but all arc unanimo us in thinking that the house should not prosecute. I sews say that these declarations place the house in a situr.ion • of great difficulty. (Hear, boar.) I thou: 1 ba sorry t o blame the committee, but I really think it ought either to have stated that Sir F. Smith, in their Ppinion, had been guilty of bribery, and have supported the present motion , or they ought not to have conc u r re d i n suc h a repose, Because the position of the house is this, that we have coma to a solemn resolution, many years since, that if any person be elected or returned a member of this house by means of bribery, this house will proceed with the utmost severity against all persons proved to be guilty or concerned in such bribery. I must say that it is very (IA :Lot to allow at the same time such a resolution to stand on our proceedings, and not to take notice of cases brought before us by the reports of committees. I think that my lion. friend is quite right in saying that this house will nut stand *ea with the people out of doors, if it appear that we do not consent to this resolution. I have said that I did net think it the business of government to influence the decision of the house, and I meant to have given my vote without taking any other part in the proceedings, hail I not been directly appealed to by my hoe. friend. I think, howe ver, after what the house has said, and after the uuanimoutly expressed wish of the committee, the house may perhaps refrain from instituting this prosecution. The house may take that view, but at the same time I feet it is one that will expose us to great misconstruction. (Hear, hear.) I think that the committee will put us in this position, that we shall find it difficult to vote for any prosecution what ever, after this cue. (Hoar, hear.) I do not know even whether it would not be better to expunge the resolution to which I have alluded should not this prosecution take place ; but of this lam cure, that if we prosecute poor arid low persons, and allow cases like that of Sir F. Smith to escape, our so doing will be fatal to the reputation of the house. (Hear, hear.) Should the house be against prose cution in this case, I shall come down in every other and give my vote against prosecution. (Hear, hear.) Mr. J. S. WORTLEY, who spoke amid general in patience said that the house was not in a con di t i on to de cide on the present motion. If they allowed this prosecu tion to go on, it would be taken merely as an ev id ence o f vindictive feeling. (Question) Believing that the course proposed would be an extraordinary one for the house to take, and not justified by the cue, he must record his vote against the motion. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL, who spoke amid evident symptoms of impatience, denied that the opinion of the law officers of the crown was founded on Sir F. Smith's evidence only, but ou a consideration of all the evidence. Sir J. SHELLEY intimated his intention to go to &divi sion, adding that if that division went against Lim, he hoped the noble lord would take means to have the NS. sional order he had referred to suspended. -------- Mr. IL DRUMMOND had oppo ed the various motions that had been brought forward fur disfranchising constitu encies ; but this went far beyond that, ar.d called upon the house to institute a prosecution against a meritorious officer and an honourable gentleman, under the pretence of vindi cating the character of the house. While they were thus casting stones, it would he well to kr.ow who was the man among them who could stand up and say, " I ant without sin." The attempt to pot an end to bribery was absurd. The "Edinburgh Review" said that "the Three per Cents. would keep pheasants." The Thr c per Cents. would also sit in that House of Commons. The Three per Cents. would sit there ; bank directors would sit there ; rail way kings would sit there ; and, with regard to the electors, AO long as there were rich ail poor men, they would rover convince the poor man that it was wrong to catch and kill wild animals, nor would they ever convince him that he was not to take money from the rich when he could get it. Call it bribery if they pleased, but it was that which per vaded, and must necessarily pervade, the whole system, House of Lords, House of Commons, the government de p truncate, and everything else. (Hear, hear.) Brute force had run to seed in France—but did not these exhibi tions of mock purity show that our system of national re presentation hail run to seed !— and was not th e e x ampl e of last year a good reason why the Emperor of Austria should not be desperately in love ssith our institutions. (" Oh," and cries of "Divide.") No sooner was a new minister with a new policy installed, than your Coppocks, your Browns, and your Italie, were busy at the Carlton and the Reform providing their candidates and their petitions. Trey played with members of parliament as they would play with the men at a game at ch e ss, g i v i ng a bi s bep f a rook, and lodging three false petitions far one fightifig ltbti tion. And what was the reason for all this anxiety to get into the house? Simply because the House of Commons I was the great place bazaar of the nation. ("Oh, oh," cheers, and cries of " Divide.") Why elee was it that they were blessed with the presence of so many members of the legal profession. (" Hear," and laughter.) They came there because they found that a flashy partisan speech de livered iu the House of Commons was a much surer and quicker road to the bench than fagging in their own chem. bees. (More laughter.) The only quc,tion was whether it was for the public advantage that that house should be the school in which lawyers should study. (Hear.) They had in the house now learned gentlemen aho held their situation' in this way. He knew not whether the Attorney- General was present or not, bet he believed he was right when he said that that hon. and learned gentleman held the situation which his talent and great ability adorned exactly on that footing. (Laughter and cries of " Speak up " from some parts of the house, and cries of " Oh" and " Divide " from others.) And was there not bribery in the House of Lards also ? It was true they could not bribe a peer with 21. 10s., as they did a voter in a county town, or by a place in the Post•office, but was it not bribery to make barons viscounts, viscounts earls, and earls marquises, in return for opportune votes? The noble lord was so anxious for purity that he brought in a Reform Bill, and made it bribery for a candidate at an election to give a few yards of penny ribbon to the wife or daughter of a voter—but three yards of broad ribbon given to a member of the House of Lords the noble lord considered convenient to the public interest. (Cheers and " Oh.") He was not cen suring these proceedings—on the contrary, he justified them. Without them the government could not be carried en, and he was only sorry the government had not a great deal more of this kind of patronage than it had. (" Oh, oh," and " bear.") In the House of Commons they bribed by I seats at Boards,and when a man became particularly boring they sent him to Hong Kong. (Roars of laughter.) And it was absolutely necessary that the Minister should have the power of practising this kind of bribery, or he could never carry on the public business. (Hear.) Ile recollected an occasion when Mr. Percival's government was on the poiut of falling, because one brother in the Treasury re fused to vote until the Minister had gi v e n ano th er brother a place; and they must all remember when Sir R. Peel was unable to hold office because he had not the appointment of the ladies of the bedchamber. (Hear.) Aid even new, unless " loud-tongued" rumour was wrong, the noble lord at the head of the government had received a letter of re monstrance from the head of a numerous aristocratic family not pre eminently rich, complaining that none of that family were included in the present government arrange ment. (Hear, hear.) What was the difficulty of the present government at this moment ? Simply want of places to give. They had nothing to fear from the opposite side—their danger was from shuts in their rear. (Loud laughter.) If he were called upon to symbolise the Treasury, he would embody it in the figure of Cybele or Tellus,having en enormous breast and no power of affording nourishment. Or perhaps the government might at present be aptly typified by Mr. Oillivray's caricature of the Trea sury sow—that had (allowed more pigs than she bed teats. (Immense laughter.) He saw a motion on the paper of to night in reference to India in the name of an hon. gentle man who sat behind the Treasury bench. What was that but the squeak of one of the little pigs that had got no teat ? (A roar of laughter.) He had endeavoured before to impress on the head of the government in that house n aver to quit his office upon any vote to which the house might come, except a specific resolution to the crown, and he beseeched the noble lord to follow that course now. (" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) The right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Disraeli) need not have left office had ho chosen to remsin, and Lord Derby ought never to have taken office, or having taken it he ought never to have quitted it, for nothing was more detrimental to the public service than these constant changes in the government. The fact was, that with all the talk about reform they had never been reformers, but speculators. Reform would have led them back to the wisdom and principles of their ancestors, and property would have had its legitimate action ; and un til it had its legi•irnate action it would never lose its illegi timate action. With regard to the motion for prosecuting Sir F. Smith, he looked upon it as one of the most discredi table that had ever been proposed in that house. (Cries of " Divide.") 1 Mr. HUME bad never heard a more extraordinary speech than that of the hon. gentleman who hail just sat down. Ile protested against the charact2r which the hen. gentleman hnl drawn of that house, and he altogether denied that our whole system, from the crown downwards, was, as the hon. gentleman stated, corrupt. It appeared to him that the hon. gentleman was at enmity with all man kind, and that he could, therefore, see nothing pure in any man's actions. (Hear, hear.) The present motion was in accordance with the principle he had always advocated— that of endeavouring to obtain an h me.:llouse of Commons and to prevent as far as possible dishonest men obtaining seats in it ; and, on that ground, ho should give it his sup port. (" Divide..") Me. RICH, amid much laughter, and loud cries of di vide, proceeded to deny the charge of the hon. member for Surrey, that he (Mr. Rich) was looking fur favours from the government. The present government was composed of men, whom he believed to be well able to carry on the business of the country, and agreeing, as ho did, in their gen-ral policy, lie gave them a disinterestid support. Sir J. SIIEI,LEY complained of the word " discredit able," used by Mr. Drummond in reference to the motion, and called for its withdrawal. The SPEAKER told the hon. gentleman if he wished to take exceptions to words uttered by any hon, member, ho must do so at the time. -. ...