The Express. — London, England, 1851-05-10 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. 1101'SE OF LORDS.—FRIDAT, MAT 9. The Luitu CHANCELLOR took his seat at five o'clock. PETITIONS I'ILESENTED. TSLANsPoITATION 10 VAN DIEMEN'S LA NlE—By Lord LTTTELTON, from Van DitOICICS Land, against trans peetation to that colony. !Irian 1.1( WISES IN SCOILANE.—By the Duke of ELT CLEUCII, front Galaadels and other places, on the sub ject of s;iirit liceurtv in Scotland. Aux /Stalin legneouv.—lfy the Earl of lIARIiOWDY, from Liverpool praying tor more e ff ectual means of arrest ing ahaerailing , debtor.. THANSPOItTATION TO VAN DIEMEN'S I..tND. load LA ITELTON, on presenting two petitions from Van Dienwn's Land. I raying for cessation of transportation to that colony, said th woe shoed • by several thousand persons; obi he was terso entrusted with a memorial to the {ION n from the cameo of Van Diemen** Loud, on the flame schj.et. This question of transportation excited but little interest in tio's a...ovary, hut it was, nevertheless, one of gri at important •. An anti-convict leogne existed in the tooloay n .tuetralasia, and a petition was now being got up to the same ef. ct whirl. would be signed by 50,000 people, and pr.ooenteil before the el.,— of the sewuu. There was no doubt this had 1.. en suggests 4 by the successful airtime •of the Cape. ar, hear.) Ile thought the go venom, at deo-re esl tli. gr. aest credit for all they had dome an the seLject of L - aneportiation. The system, as it had barn r -bons. d I.y t'se goo-imminent. was, however, only an experiment. The. whole f the severe yr 44 part of the seat, nr: wa• now itall.A.Al at home ; bat he was afraid this pistelo could have but :ink deterring effect on the popula tion at home. Crime 1 - ... I inerearal, soil the convicts who bail arrived in the coiony had toe OVAL exaggerated ideas of their p. oi ion ant proope et.. The governor of the (Om, t touloneueltal that the rules which had been in force in the eolony a. to rompui• cry labour should be continued ; awl that conviets slemlil he sent out as soon no they ha I passd the period of solitary confinement. The mode earl at to I, tol of the Colonial lb pertinent e itala not expetoil to se tuio..C.• in Pais suggestion lie lwwtser, lo sal stab 4 that it niiolit Ise ast“Ptid as to the Irish emoviets. It we. tho• doubtful whether this plan of inflict iny all tb- inuoielou-nt at home was to he continuo el or not. Sir Win. on 44100,4 whether any marked change bad shikit..il by the convicts who ha I undtrg..ne the p ort of their Mena- at bone. The state of the I I , .1111 . 1 , t. If s• ry ouploroble, awl notwithstanding oho clieibrity in the nUllim.l.• of the ones, very few of thew 110na.% of in niarri oge. Sir Win. 1/0141.011, this, r AV..a'', vAid ti:‘, Vain,: of the colonists was de tiill iiiy w,,ein-t transportation. Nu doubt to re was a &el ite.: in favour of the ' , evicts alai; hut this was only on the pen of the convict population, which was Tory 14 , 011..05U.; but in New it :gland, South Aus trate., Port Philip, an 1 Victoria the feeling was de loolistly air deist trate-urination. In New South Woks noo ••••in ha.l tiv , ll do bated at gnat length, awl 4.c14 .1, without a clisseuti.ut, against ti., continuance of eniwirotation. .tt ?lonian flay, it .61, true, witte Yaw's bad been exhibited to obtain eons nes, but it was Mly in co:swim-nee of the warrity of labour ; and when that hail poo.-4 away, no dunk they would be as mach ooppi.asi In n n isiug CultifieN lo the-or neighbours. What sort oil rosiesounitiis ,hid a- 1641 the colonies to he: Did we mot oh sire that they 141011111 Is' guod moral communi tier, fops', at II :I.i, Li the population of the mother ermotry A 1,1 no 'i.e' 1,44 , 1 •t. r gal lout that in a moral }}.ant of view the pr.-el:nee of convirts must doe del anal. • badiag ethibitoll hy the roloniirts LPN, from LI dread of einirmanatimn and norai degradation. (Meer, bear.) From what lie would he ar th prrolit experiment was not suirveird- big, awl th.- woo-rosin. It n 404 hod itself bound to deal with this qustion. and consider whether they could sot abolish • portatiom to the Ate.ttalian Own. experience, that transportation was a benefit to the empire at large, as well as to the colonies themselves. (Hear, hear.) If transportation were discontinued, what system of secon dary punishments would th ey , adopt ? Clearly they must make the imprisonment in I ortland and similar establish ments—which would require to be multiplied fur that pur pose, to an indefinite extent—or else they must provide employment fur every one of the prisoners when the term of then. sentences should have expired. Now, the former of these alternatives he supposed was entirely out of the question, and as for the latter he would only ask if any of their lordships knew a neighbourhood when some ten of these extremely well-reformed convicts would find a farmer that would take them into hi, house? (Hear, hear.) There would always be a suspicion of crime attaching to them, and that undoubtedly a very grievous one. It was true that they might probably find their evil companions again in a convict settlement, but at home that probability was a certainty. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the prospers of the penal colonies, he :the noble lord) admitted that there were many dila , conies iu the way , but we had brought them all on our selves by our own recklessness and selfishness. (bear_ , hear.) Nevertheless, he maintained that the country had no other alternative, and in proof of his assertion he re ferred to the astonishing and interesting monument of skill and industry coutaited iu the building recently opened in Hyde-park. Did they think that if they had turned loose upon suekly 30,0n0 convicts, even as care fully reformed and trained as they were 25 years ago, when the chaplain of used i the bulks n hi, yearly report to the House of Commons to warms as a moral test the number of convicts who had leara‘al to repeat the Thirty-nine .'erticlee—did they think it would have been possible to witness the spectacle of calm order at the opening of the Crystal Palace, when there we're assemhltal 500,4100 spectators ? (Hear, hear.) In fact, ' it would be impossible to carry on the government unless the executive retained the power of expatriation. (Hear, hear.) Thu noble lord concluded by asking if it was intended to resume the hulk ss stern. The Duke of AlifiT LE disagreed with the noble lord, who stated that the system of transportation was inevitable, and because inevitable that it must la right. In the first place, that was is false argument, awl in the m email place, it was not true that trans• portation was invvit tille. The arnumeuts of the noble lord, he did red m• an in a personal or invidious sense, were of a selfish kind. They rel ited to the inc rovenience, Its, would rather say the moral evils, which we should suffer by keep- ing the convicts in this country. We could keep these cons iets at home if we chose. Ile contended that it was on a balance of the convenience and inconvenience which must result to us and to the c lonics, that they must decide this question. 11,- ooli,itleretl that the objections to send ing the convicts to the colonies, notwithstanding any rt for suatory discipline to which they might he subject, were some ob thenuat strong almost as the objections to keeping them at I home. Alter a few words from the Bishop of Ox YOU° and Lord Wolotttorsr, Earl GREY said his noble friend asked whether the system of hulk. wa, to be resumed. It had never been dis continued. lle wi.hnl it If 411 possible, WI a floating prison was necessarily a bad one. But they could not create a mlotitute for the hulk, in a day. They had hitherto had them at the dockyards and at Bermuda, but they wished to ir.t rid or them a. fast as they could. There was a very large prison in the tour.. of erection in Bermuda, to which the ems lets would be transferred as soon as it was com pleted. In this country the associate labour which he htul de-crib...l as the seesonlary punishment would always he peci'onned by convict,; but until the pri.ons wery It w.es absolutely neee•sary to continue the hulks. No pri soners now went straight to the hulk.. All prisoner. '4 ho wen able to underuo punative treatment were made to undergo it for a shorter or a homer timo; then they went to tin...as...elate labour which lie had dr.eribed. --- The petttann wa. th, n ordi red to lie on the table, and their lurilahips adjourn. d. The An•Illonhop of DUBLIN we. anitiosti. to bear tedi loony to what h. had won of the working of the polite.° tiar• in In•I Ile had ~sited the Mount Joy HO). SE OF CONIMONS.-FRIDAT, MAT 9. sa..kg i v , t0.....”e.h0i.. for rather I.•nothene4 period.. Ile The Sraaaaa took the chair at 4 o'clock. W.V. satisfied that they hod oh rived great benefit frorn the I'ItIVATE BUSINESS. meal tiny had leen subjected to. (Bear.) 1 The following were severally read a third time and Ile ea bathest the whole of the prison, and be thought passed :-Alserdeen l'uhlic lkoords; Dundee and Arbroath Its working 501y...1 many difficult problems ou the . Roilway ; Huddersfield and New Rey District Turnpike sal ici lof prism Th.• ..lent it •1.-in was looked Rood ; St. Andrews' Railway; Bil a. ou nob dr.-ad, hut it did n o t opt.• er to )•a.e affectol the The Scorburough Gas 11111 was read a ant time. intellects of the prison -r., Ile Yea. convinced the it bad PUBLIC BUSINESS. ben a en ..., .4181 rep 'intent, and had poked the problem RELIGIOUS HOUSES. of whetter cony Ole nold he disposed of at house. Sir It. 11. INGLIS printed a petition from John George o 11;1; o tlo pi o n n o w offipted was to itithot a short Bartley, a meeiher of the human cetholie church, and ...le and .harp phichluuent at home, anti then scud them ohneol. legal jo•nonol r•preoutative of two Wiles, now deceased, Teti. thigh: Is. 4 jeeted to he th e colffiliste, but what alter- I formerly none of a (.reign convent, imbeequently trans stir in mho ie. Me rejoieed in the teetimithy , fernd to England, c o mplaining that the property of the whirls had been lion, by the right rev. prelate a. to the , odd lodine though trot...fere...l to the prioress to be managed elf it of It . M , Putej.l .y-t.. rat ; but, from On' experience of , for the ben.-lit of the said lathes, bad been treated Al the 1'•1,4,,1 ilk. 01//4 r pri -.ie.. the moot uniunit , oloolute property . of the same convent; and praying the n 0.... seri of tot %to that 14 month, was the lonotot perio.l house V. inquire into the , •onstitution of convents, and par• of ....lit oe effiffin :wail that sould he indicted without per ticolorly into the circumst kneel comploined of by the peti t...rine hoer} to the in •ntal faculties ; sewd in the majority I time r. The petiti •r Jested that he repeatedly requested if ca* • IO mouth. ova. os long a eeriffil a. could to hi made aware of the fgt. connected with the property ?hoe period. wen- too short for the whole punishment ; of his decc.awal echoic..., but to no purpose a n d, the rt.:is iris were then•fore removed to liermoda and finally, lux dud to rile a bill in the m att er . Portion:), when th.o. wen. plon el in woociatesl , There convent. wo being the law of the v Rang.. trained . labour of the nuot uo ful kiwl, colt...rations recogniod by law, the petitioner hail with a strong ethisulu. to exertion, in the hope of been totd that he should n u t alone bring his action against eliore I their n ah•nte. The sery best effect, hod the prioresa, lieu also against every professed member of the F r oth e d wow the stowm phreseel at Vuctiand. The nest convent. (.1 laugh.) such a proceeding he regarded as a etep was Ole reasornl to the runty with wit it w.ss eallcd a grierauce and a denial of justice ; so ninth so that he then “e:•et of lee:." It woe 34 al, why ilia Ole government , upon that house to take noti ce o f th e ex i s t ence o f not oilly•re to th eir town ey.tein of 14181, wild them out . thew institution,. not controlled or recognised by this as eta.... The horOine of that eystens was against it, Ow , country, hut reg ulated by laws of their own, 811141 having a narks. were ffieffil.• to support themselves by thee ten.lency to disturb relations by the perpetration of lehour, a- they shield .10 when hush r notraiht ; they con- Irma. (Ilear, hear.) tisocel in II..• I woe Joins, and massy who had forms,) tie! ISE•kTIIS OF Iltloll PotrEltS IN IVOIIK fled:ono. st room. to- had fallen into ;heir old pre,latory habits.; Mr. P. SeILOPE ai,lied to ask the right hon. Secretary ley the to let of I -as,-.ydeal the cousins were dispersed ; for Irelond whether any coroner's inqueet had yet been on,-r .; n q, mod r, Addy got employment a. ..heisbetls !beld nu the bffily of any one of the paupers that hail died and 1., .k.oper• - they were noninal to par a certain mum within any of the workliuuees of Ireland, many of whom, oat of to it wage.. lu the lint Instance, lia•Girt the system a oppeored by the report. of inspector., died within a few was fatly ilsinght 06A-ration. it usiglit have given rise minutes of their adnuoion. And.. eu Law the reply were iu ii ineaks. Utile,. amt tb, dial, tally • islianced by the the negative, to ask whether the reef-law Culitni.lion had Lain ssuellor of Irish ...Wrt. 0h,,, nun- at first rent out et. r given any dinetion• thereupon. Witt...! through that r. formatory eliwipline whit h Sir W. SOMERVILLE was understood to reply in the th • Engliffi sonnet., were whiskey-41 to. 'Phis, however, affirmative. would h.- pot an end to by the reialffislitue•nt of the Mount DANUBIAN PILIN( I IPALITIES.-lIIONGARIAN joy 4.14664, to which .10 !I goo iij hut retOretwe haul tern mole. REFUGEES. A: 6.utm IA n tad I-. 161 practito to remit portion...l'th, ; lord P.II.MERSTON, in reply to a question put by oleo eon. its.. on ....edition of their while away ; 'Mr Unveil : aro stat e d that, according to the hot advice ,s where r...rted to do I . niteel state.; hut .1 lan 14341'6.4 Is., IA j Of the littsWalt troops had beams their march from the le* the Stotts imposing 3 line ihipl Danubian Principalitie, and that within a fortnight the 'lO lasing COOS tl • t• mans of them hod n.turtie .1 . whole wouhl have reached the. (routine. of Wallaehig, thu to tatt.l.t. The noble heel consploin, .1 that the convkits i Turkish troop. s•vocuotino principolities simulffineostely Is. re not et-metal) dile roe). This had 1.311 itypos..ilik. With 00 , 4. 01 llU•sia. ith ox.ot to the tern:lining Hua i., two, -, .0,.;111g . .y.14 - flit now 0rt.41 it. 11.141 iv.,it .alte.• fritriall refugee., he said the- endeavour. of the English and 11i.•13.41 by path ins at and then. Was a tlithellltr in getting Entsch government. to obt o in th e i r lilorotion had not been plic*t.• rool-i4r es.:l.i.t.. 111. Isslive44l that the convicts, successful, the Turkish :government not having, at th e d a t e wish r the n4rat,on. now in f . force. would ultimately prove •• of the 1 e.st 4i-counts. oleo rmiaed upon their chase. aI. t. 81. t.. the colonots. Many of • Vier.- coining Ot..I•I."I'ATION OF ROME BY THE FItENCII. mood :.$ thit ..oinitee: 411.14 t a great meeting "r t. non at To a,o.3tion. lie Mr. I'. 1k:414. /in hr, TLK t.... U .y.., ono.: dioire hod Icon e xpr,•sosl diet Atli- Lord V.\ LNIE Ito IfON replied that the occupation of twat: helnurers .ffie..ll he wid there. S., onnig was the R.ll/1, by the French troop. had thou undertaken by the teliter tei the sulOert. that they were shout to petition to gos: rument4 France up m iti own ili.cretion:and judgment ; A• sop it.:. I from the not of th.• ...il colony in this rosin. One I the British goy, nament wi. no party to th e measure, but, ells nail .41.1 the roatirt• 1,4 111.• Ite4t s. ninth he ever though it multi 11.4 t In.• said to concur in the orcupotiou of , flew.) In 0,44 111 Australia. a enhay which I the city. and hal an "pillion upon the subject • it had no phase to t'te fealty priuripho tat which it wa. founded, partieulor right to inter: re. though lie could not eay that 111 al Is •-n illetlittilkt in prnsperity every year. there had n•- 1 the result of the °cremation had been the establishment of 11. illy holt a racrl.e.l change. °wine to oh.' ittereaw• of wood guyerument. With reveal to the prelottnatiOn Of the 13h3nr; I hat' •.‘..n nu th e shoo. wo. ...Ilia./ at a. mach 1 moult-At:on, communications had taken place he• a. a 413 i... ant. TM.- belt it Win. or the coronets thew I tween her 313j.-4) • n034.4-111114.11t grad that of Promo. but Mod li,-,11 hoot cosensplory and their Lalerur wet ; the latter basins our, occupied Rome, the withdrawal of a.•.., p • .1 4 ,1, • ,.. 5, 41 ,-, oho had alwely obtoinel I it. garrion might hod to the n-occupation of the city by " • e. hoe-, had ~act, t•-. 1 the -ovine to the , ...he other power, which might prove less advantageous to sou nt .sti.fartons of the inhabit.uste. The government , the ',semi,• and to the gem cal interests of Rump... The •• allSis4ll. In p 1.4113.44. the welt ire of Vast Dienun's Lind French government, which never entertained any project of I'-.. it hod no Mail to el, ea end the diernatinuonce of Oil. territorial ocquieition, 1411141jtiolge fur itwlf, with due regard .• •as •-f ilio•oisig ieto aser.-ly berm- it Might t.l all 01e hat nests concerned. as to the period when the ►s. it •"a n ....nese. es.., without any near.' to Coot of the ix-rupee ihoutd 1 , nuinated. mother a-tunny. • Selena unimportant quiotioas wc re then asked by vari ou s The Ilishop 5.X.1.1.4111 . 11V Was glad to he able to add in...Wien and re ohs's' unworn. 104. 1.4../i.itany u. the ••11M1i11.1141e date of the reformotewy pri- 1 INTRAMURAL INTEIDIENTS. rem at Cornetis4 hiiieh, living within hi. own elione.... lie In reply to a question by Sir l/e L. EVANS, ha I 1.1'..3 thoaeht it hie slaty to si•it. IL rotas,' then j Sir G. I.ItEY • sid that till the Board of Ile ilth came tO. •it ••1 i Olen. • h.. heel luau ouilty of yen crow offene..., into pit-nine of the burial grounds in th e h an d, o f t h e ei • 6•0. It y 8,84 alto B.ly looted *tinhorn the proud port tad , eeisting cemetery cowitanice. they could not cause the •1••• we, were now nalent Ono that r -forwatory 'burial mound* within the metropoli• to be doted. In•onn o; whoh %AO s. well ea1e111414.1 to inspin• hope. of t TIIE RIDE IN KENSINGTON GARDENS. wares.. At Ike time oh.n he tinted theist they at re re- Mr. HUME wished to know from the right hon. gentle ennui:.: fr. u their oat-door lohour, e„11, sat or,lsr, with , in..., .of tin-v) in the absence of the noble lord at the else •.-tu! • osantenanno. and ith a e- nee.' appeorannt .h.ad of the w.sol: and forests. whether be would take steps W:4401 tied that proti -r rare win. token of their bodily nut to allow Kensinotonoronlerui to be opened till after en Wlon. .3* th.os at their evening Nicol • sad en- I Mondoe neat, when he int, laded to submit a motion to the Joy. t:o ..see of I. 'Mt mono at their vienina deo.- bonne on this Aillipet. (it,- ar c hear.) Goo., at Vain+ It • affilr. sod to them none obwryatioa. he I Sir O. 1.:1LE% . said tint the orrangements Were not sub nnahel oc I would 161 . .citable to their raw. Their de , ject to his control. but he would mention to his noble friend soars e that nit hsof an "Minor; Chi-holm conirregotion. the queerness which hail been put be th e bon. gentleman. an I euelt that I. • 40,1 not but hope they 4114-re in 1 l'1101'1:ItTY TA% BILL. wow 111•444tre wienble of the improving influence., On the :notion fur cutoidering the Property Tax Bill as auger wheels they h... 1 been Oleic. hear.) ansenikel. flevet.... 'as.. h.• els;nili belie his Own couvietion. if he were' The CHA.NCELI,OII of the EXCHEQUER said he had In 443 y that he :the riuitt rev. MLitt hinvelf entertaffied, reeeiveil so many woo 'emotions on the subject o f th e tax any r, of a g.iit eel re forinetion of etimi- 1 paid by the occupe iuo tenant, that since he tut addressed ws.• of oi ou.. yoke.. Ile thought the nohle lord, who' thu homer he had been in communication with the officers dud do .1t •••• strunaly on the evil. of the pr oent *poem, t of the Inland resenue, with a view of givin g the occupy i ng e 6 howl.' to point oild a wanly by which the difficulties j learnt. wow whet without departing too widely from the that i.a.l be. a •tµ•ri.'need comic' be more satirnmeturily principle on which the tot was imposed. Ile. therefore, shah is (eke. re.) proposal to bring up a clause which would suhstantially The Il.•hop of OXFORD entertaireed feeling. of great carry into effect the °fejt et which the hon. and gallant tnem- Fenno!, v. th,- nol.k • art (End Ore.) foe a very mat deal leo for Lincoln, and the hoe. members for Warwickshire if what It, Woo .1 in dealing with slhlkult and . important and Salisbury contemplated by their various propositions. milli cis. Pour or iit. years aftis he 4tbe right rev. prelate) The clause would provide, that if at the end of the tow to - Worts ..f sueeeotiag ten thou lortl•laipe tie denim- year of assessment any person occupying land for the bffity ofsla , l o t the. putative part of tile treatment of con- purpose of husbandry only. and obtaining his Lech theta t too., at home rattler than affininist. nog it hood prioeipully by husbandry. who should be assessed ahroa 1 ; out he had to thank the noble earl for hat ino car• under schedule B, •hould prove to the sati.foction of Orlon; ti se verso putt in this country rather t h an in the i the commissiancrs that his profits and gains aris weloni.s. Marls. however. that the noble earl bad said ing from the occupation of such lands fell short that nun:: Lint nista hint the in-atilt p.dn. The lof the rum on which Lite assessment was made, it should gas ter. the paramount evil of troo•p n ,n 3 t wo und e r Ibe 'Awful for them, on appeal made within three months all its a. England had hitherto len liVn it, w as that lof the expiration of the year, to cause au abatement it , 4t.: O. • neatest trust whirls a civilised • auntry could to be made proportionate to the deficiency of his profits. lave p:w -1 noon it -the mat trust of planting coloniet i n S u ch was th e advantage be proposed to give taxmen occu eliffioseit p trt: tn. of th e g l o h e . (Hear. tine.) That in the pying for the present year. The house had decided that the sv•:em. which iri. Tie.olls to its Vert , Core, Was that income tax should be limited to • year, and therefore he she hwleioleasoured to plant colonies formed a the basest proposed that the boon should be limited likewise to a year. of maolliell. The right reverend prelate concluded by de- \Chat the subsequent arrangements would be would depend eloriag that it woo infamous for a Christian people to Sow on the committee on the ineouse tot. (Hear, hear.) Herd like...A min of eriminals and that England. once enlight- hearted as the Chancellor of the Exchequer war considered. nod as to • lut wes her duty in this matter. would no or indeed was compelled to be. he hoped that on the pressed long .r persevere in the perpetration of an evil of such occasion they would be of opinion that he had given duo In tort ratio (Lord cheers.) consideration to what he must foirly admit welloleweeffil lor 1 IfINTEAOLE thought they oaelo not to regard the the attention of the house--the complaiuts of tenant fannia cu.s4lhel with solo reference to the colonies. but in relation (" Hear" from the opposition benches.) to the whole empire, of which they were Italy a part. The clause having been put. (Hear, hear.) Thorn' in that light, then, he was prepared Colonel SlBTlloltl' remarked that they had bees told to atoblioh apse the reason of the caw, as well as upon on high authority to joy over repentant maven. (Great ever, for any Roman catholic not to desire to Fee the disci pline of his church controlled and carried out, not by the agency and interposition of vicars-apostolic, but by the regularly constituted and established hierarchy, because it was thus, and only thus, that the Roman eatholics could obtain security against ill-disposed l'opes. Vicars-apostolic were a mere temporary arrangement ; they were the Pope's • mimes fur the carrying out of hie bulls. The present aseasure fur the putting down of the Roman catholic bishops was more persecuting and intolerant in its nature than any of the penal statutes. The noble lord pro fessed to be the friend and the advocate of civil and religious liberty, and that very session, side by side with this papal bill, he was urging on the legislature the adoption of a measure the object of which was the en franchisement of the Jewish subjects of her Majesty from the disabilities which still attached to them. But the noble lord ought to satisfy hint (Mr. Saelleir) that this bill was not calculated to strike in an unfair, an un constitutional, and illiberal manner at the natural development of the Roman catholic faith through out these countries. The question was, were or were not the catholic* entitled to the full development of their faith ? Ile imagined that no friend to religious liberty would affirm that it was a just thing to legislate against the progress of any particular creed. Yet, in effect this was the object of the legislation proposed by the noble lord.' lie was convinced that the Ecclesiastical Titles Assumption Ildl would be found to amount to inure than a of i r t epe di • d al amd. y and that the the government what would be the result in Ireland ? d Mr. STANFORD next addressed the house. Ile act at it of f oul i d s24 tic j. applied. iie b ot a n ie d " inked looked at each question according to its real bearings, and never referred to the issue which another omit might tell him was inevitable ; for if he believed others and did not judge for himself he would be perpetually , falling into mistakes. In this respect, he might describe himself as the political Pariah of the house. (Great laughter.) Ile always went according to his own views, and eared nothing for any other man's views. If, on the contrary, he humi d himself over to a leader, and acted like un humble follower, he thought that it would be just as well to send his footman into the house instead of himself. (Laughter and loud cries of " Hear, hear.") This proposal, at present under conside ration, he examined, with a reference to its real meaning ; and he found that it led to uuthiug. Probably the hon. and learned gentleman the member fur Sheffield (Mr. Roe buck), whom he saw laughing, differed from hint. The hon. and learned gentleman was also in a peculiar posi tion was the political terrier of the house. (Laughter.) The hon. and learned gentleman was one of those who held a large soul in a small body. (Great laughter.) Ile sympathised with the hon. and learned gentleman as little WI he did with the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) on this question. The noble lord and the honourable and learned gentleman had both taken to letter-writing about the Pope. The consequences, how ever, were very different. The noble lord had done the most popular thing which he had ever accomplished in his career, and the hon. and learned gentlemau had done the most unpopular thing he had ever succeeded in doing— which was, saying a great deal. He (Mr. Stanford) took no mere party view in regaa el to this question. Ile consi dered that the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) was a great statesman and a perfect parliamentary fencer—although he thought no man hail ever been so hualibled as the noble lord was by the philippic of the butt. and learned gentleman the ntenilser fur Athlone (Mr. Keogh) on a recent occasion (laughter)—and not desiring to oust any government until he was certain that a stable government was ready to sue reed—(laughter)—he came to the conclusion that the noble lord was the best man they could possibly get under the circumstances. (Great laughter.) Ile agreed that the letter of the whit: lord (Lord J. Russell) was calculated " to wound the religious feelings of many of her Majesty's subjects," and that the expression "superstitious mummeries," was a most unwise and unkind phrase to be used on the part of the noble lord. Ile hoped that the noble lord had doue himself the justice to explain away that phrase. (Hear.) Nu non had a right to insult the religious feelings of ano ther. Religious truth must be left to prevail by argument, by discussion, and also by charity. (Hear.) The Roman catholic`, were Christians. They were our fellow country men and our fellow subjects, and he believed loyal subjects too, and it was certainly matter of regret that the noble lord (Lord John Russell) should have made use of such au offensive expression. The lion. member concluded by bay ing that he felt he must support the motion of the hon. member for Stafford (Mr. Urquhart.) Sir R. li. 'NULLS said the question which the speaker would put from the chair woo, That the Speaker leave the chair," and the amendment was to leave out the words after '• that," in order to introduce the proposition of the hon. member (Mr. Ur q uh a rt). Il e (Sir It. 11. Inglis) would assume for the moment that the amend ment would, unhappily, be carried. What would be the practical result ? Was it a matter of indifference ? On the contrary, if the amendment were successful, it would destroy the bill. (Hear, hear.) In other words, the Speaker would not leave the chair, and the house would nut go into committee on the subject. That was the issue which the people of England would recoguise in the pro ceedings of their representatives that evening. The bill was certainly better than no bill, although better still it might be made ; but, whether it were good or bad, when he bad merely the choice of the two questions. whether he should go into committee to see how far lie could amend the bill, ow resist all proceedings iu the matter, he could have no hesitation in voting for the motion to gu into committee. That motoon was to the effect that they should proceed to further legislation. There was no man so ill-infurmed regarding the state of feeling in this country as not to know that the resistance of the house to legislation un this subject would be this tasteful to the feelings, opposed to the principles and abhor rent to the judgcneut of the largest portion of the people of England who ever took part in any , public question. Th e issue was not as to wh e th e r th e no bl e lord (Lord J. Russ, II) had met in the proper way the reeruirommts of the case, but whether that house should say" we shall have nothing to do with the matter," after having phased the bill by such majorities as 3'Jl on the first occasion, 414 un the se cond, and 11l on the last. The minority, too, they would observe had on these occasions never exceeded Ota Yes, the united forces of thew who generally acted with the right hon. member for ltipon (Sir J. Graham) the Irish brigade, and all the ultra-montane and montane parties, bad never exceeded uiuuty individual*. (Laughter.) W e r e the people of Englaud, after such repeated majorities, to yield, and submit to have their proceedings nullified and themselves stultified ? lie would not vote fur the motion beltore the house; and it' not rejected by as large a majority as: heretofore supported the noble lord, he hoped the majo raty would at least be such as to ensure the house against further futile opposition. (Hear, hear.) Lord D. STL ART said, that if the Mon. member for Stafford had moved An amendment that the Speaker do leave the chair that day six months, he would have given his vote nor it, but he objected to getting rid eta bill, which he considered most oolajo:ctiottable, by a aide-winol. lie ad mitted that the papal measure constituted an insult to the crown of this country, and ascribed it in a great degree to Austrian influence. Bot if it were of such great import ance a+ had been stated by the government, invading the prerogative of the crown and subversive of the aucient con stitution of this country, it should not have been met by such a futile and:oseltry measure, and would have folly jus tified the government of this country in •N tiding a Meet and army too bring the Pope to reason. Ile mould, however, give no'countetaance to a hill which he considered to trench on the principles of religious liberty. Although he was aware that the course he proposed to take might give offence to a large body of his constituents, he felt bound to act on his own views of what was just. As, hoowever • the majorities against him were so enormous, he rt thought it would b e useless waste of time t o offer fule r opposition. The time would come when the people of this *nursery- would be ashamed of such legislation, which he s a no m i c o. n wv e !pt. out on oh t regarded us dbocreditable to the government. n h i e e 3 ,, o l l! u a re li nO t t k N tl r K i , i n u E e k S t h h i c a s id e h l nßewltuiglndgeorifilsea'kr the n po e the resolution before the house, and to say " aye " " no " he Muud " aye " was the truth, and he therefore gave his support to it. (Hear.) lie agreed in some of the express ut t tae could policy c d tryi coed h nt: Irte i :h h :nei e aencu:( a tpg:i i hrt n i ti rhim d i:.fe)e - t. sioas of the noble lord, as too the bill being paltry and in ue to govern nn nger . lie t c' or im ; ofn r ti di t ( t . h . e gentleman l oTr ) sf would ah 1: 11 tl t h ton a f tf t e o h :r i ; w m; r e r a ir n,e, 4 l;: i. e , r u l e t; i : i t t t e,e n ,r o la r oui t s nin b cotr i l ' i ol : cr i.t e ,, t ‘v h ; m i e ir lt al answer for throughoo t ut til t i l it a c i h s b.,i t i l lw a h iesac and.t t 'noble lord at the head of the government had much to t, by en *stet catholic`,, i t r si mutilated i t t n h h c e e e n roisuraßNo'rieumelanterhlVit'itenru. by this return of the noble lord to office, and he hoped to see the . second and third clauses restored to it. Mr. I'LL:MIRE should certainly vote for going into committee. The public had exhibited great patience, and he believed the strength of the feeling on this subject was not a jot abated. Mr. REYNOLDS said that the hon. gentleman who had just sat down admitted that the protestant people of this o u l u t t h h e w f ow-subjects, übj determinedcto i, toot' opposewho he by w as e ver) o country were impatient to forge manacles for ten millions means e as • (( L aughter.) t l es r l e • t i rd :rn: . t e h r e t e h m is p o i l re ecial t ati w o . n not e of w e w t against n,h a o r nb,iithilyo surprising f t t h h i t t n i b e m t o e n b , r l. l p 3 1 1 .., 1 c al oa l th h o i l s ic.l Pu o; o o f i E ea n r gl h a e n ar d . spo l oul ie d im be li e e x „ c .d ited the a re tte house who were opposed to this measure, but who voted for it in consequence of the feeling out of doors. (Hear, hear.) Such members, however, might learn a useful les son from the noble conduct of the two members for Man chester, who called their constituents together and told them that they had opposed, and 'meld continue to oppose, the bill ; and that they would rather resign their seats than permit this encroachment on civil and religious liberty. (Hear.) The intelligent:people of Manchester did not find fault with them for the conduct they pursued. The right hon. gentleman told them that the government would regard this vote as a vote of want of confidence, and that the home must abide the consequences. Now they would not require a telescope to discover what he meant by the consequences, namely, that the nation would lose the benefit of his official services. (Laughter.) He (Mr. Reynolds) was prepared even for that national cala mity. (Renewed laughter.) It had been said that those Irish members who had combined against this bill would vote black was white. An Irish patriot, whom he did not then see in his place, on a recent occasion observed, " The hon. member for Dublin has had the effrontery, in a society of English gentlemen, to avow that he would vote against her Majesty's government, whether he thought they were right, or whether be thought they were wrong." (Cheers, from the ministerial benches.) lie (Mr. Reynolds) would • repeat his avowal, that from the wriod of the introduction of this bill of pains and penalties against his creed, ho could have wished all his votes to be construed as votes of no confidence in the government. I (laving appealed to his constituents he had received their approval ',lbis conduct, and an aggregate meeting of tho authorities of Ireland, held on the 29th of last month, had endorsed his political opinions. Seven 14144 of people had combined together against this bill, and their opin ions were not to be disregarded. It was important that they should entertain a kindly feeling towards this country; it would be a dangerous thing to alienate their affections and • to drive them mad by legislation. lie had heard it said that an insult had been offered to the 141114 . 11. Now he was nut addicted to flattery, but he assorted without the fear of contradiction that there was no part of the United King den in which her Majesty was held in more affectionate re , verenee than in Ireland. The catholic, of Ireland had always regarded her Majesty its their friend 'old protector, and they would rather lay down their lives rem insult her, though at the same time they would not in terferencepermit any with their creed. Ile begged to call the at ' tention of those who occupied, and of those who re fused to occupy, the Treasury benches to the fullowing resolution passed at the great aggregate meeting to which he had before referred --" That our deepest gratitude is due to those Irish members of parliament who, regard less of all party ties, have offered such strenuous and un compromising opposition not only to the Kerb via-tical Titles Dill, but also to the adminntra ' by whom it was introduced." Now, he asked the house whether he had any right to blush after the passing of such a resolution as that? (Laughter.) If he were to blush, seven millions of Irish people must blush also. (Great laughter.) For they had endorse', his acts. An hon. baronet had re ferred to what he was pleased to trim " a band oil Irish members in that house' • and having also dignified them with the title of •.the Irish brigade ' " said that he (Mr. Reynolds) was the leader of that brigado. Ile was not the leader of that brigade, nor of any other, but lie was one of its numbers, and he said, un behalf of it, that it had com bined rod no other purpose than to defend itself against oppression. What they claimed was the simple right to worship God according to the dictates of their own con science. They did nut envy this country's 10,000,0001. in tithes and church rates; they would nut accept them as a prevent. (Laughter, and cries of " Oh, uh," from Sir IT. Moksworth). Ile begged to assure the hon. baronet that on that subject he was speaking his real feeling as au Irish catholic. (Ilear, hear.) They could not contaminate their bishops and clergy by accepting a state provision for them, and when any had been spoken of they had always pro tested against it. (Ilear, hear.) They bowed submissively to the law as regarded the Irish church. But the noble lord (Lord J. Russell), not satisfied with that. had proposed a bill, by a clause which iu effect declared that if the most Rev. Dr. Murray signed his MUM to the appointment oh' a priest, " Daniel Murray, archbishop of Dubliu," ho should be fined lOW., and in default of payment be sent to a felon's gaol. Were they to be blamed for combining against such a measure? ((fear.) It was alleged that the bill was intended only for England, but hail liven ex tended to Ireland on the principle of uniformity, and in support of this view reference was made to the act of union, in which the legislature spoke of the united churches of England and Ireland. He would remind the noble lord of the incousistency of his legislation. There was 'mother act of union which related to Scotland, and what did it say ? Why, that the preisbyteriau relig should remain for ever the established religion of Scotland; and, iu furtherance of that object, two acts were passed, one in 16:10, the other iu 1700, which were termed. •• the Anti-Epis copacy Acts." Yet, the right hots. baronet at tho head of the home department had frames' a clause expressly exempting from the operations of this bill the bishops of the episcopal church of Scotland. Pro testant bishops iu Scotland mitht take their titl e s from phew,' in Scotland ; thee mig t take the title, for ex ample, of " Bishop of Edinburgh," •• Bishop of Glasgow," or " Bishop of Aberdeen," though they could derive no legal rights from it us against the COrenallter, Why was a different rule to be applied to Ireland from that which was applied to Scotland This difference was made because the ministers of the Scotch suecessfully de• fended their rights with the broadsword, while tho people of Ireland were struck d o wn with i m p un ity. If they passed the bill it would be a dead letter, for they dared not put It into executiun in Irehoul. (Hear.) Thu noble lord had been more than once Munted with this being legislation;sham and he had never denied it, our stated that lie would put the tall in force. The Attorney-General fur Ireland, whom he did not see ir. his place, had been called on over and over again to explain the law ; but, as if by some Magi(' inthwuce, he had always taken shelter be hin•l the Speaker's chair, or lad hims e lf i n some of thin passages. (Laughter.) Thus the house was left in the dark, and nut sue difficulty was solved by that high legal functionary. The noble lord at tit, head of the go verntuent said he must do something; but 11011. mem bers said he was doing nothing. True, the hue. baronet (Sir It. Inglis) said the hill was a goal bill, tlimgli not so good as he could wish; from which the infer. nee was that it was a bad bill for the people of Kingdom and Ireland, Or it would not have got so good a character from the protted out watch-dog of the University of Oxford. But the Irish people said that a large portion of those senators who were making violent speeches on this subject were mail. They said that the people of England Often had been mad; the Tudors were mad wheal they bend wept,. in Smithfield ; those who engaged in the South Sea Wilde were mad; Lord George Gordon awl his mob were mad ; the*, who had given their blood and treasure, and incurred hive hundred millions of the national debt to place a rotten dynasty on the throne of Frame contrary to the wishes of the French people, were mad ; and the Sallie Wight be said of some senators. Suppose they passed this hill and indicted a bishop and packed a jury (tOr they could hot find him guilty without) to try him, and got Ai pliable— I he would not say a corrupt judge to pass seutence 011 him, Ile one dared to lay a fingeron a catholic mitre. Then why pass this bill ? They might say the cooling army in Ire laud should be doubled. They hail had :el,tan) troops there already,at the expense of th e people lit England, it) keep Ireland in order, when it was not disorderly ; hut the poor Inslimau would sacrifice his ('sal sooner than his creed, e i v tl e i , t it k hoblo , he o l them iulplon hltluie,hvaedna:sloywi and, touch their religion, and the whol e B r itish army woo:aid nut to pause before lie proceeded further. Ile Mid no wish to deprive him of the seals of oitice—quite the contrary ; but the prueesaliug lie wets now carrying on was 4 declaration' of war against the creed and country of Ireland ; wed, no mat ter what might be the constsmence, he (Mr. Reynolds) was detenuinol, buth in the house and out of it, to offer this atnieious bill of pains and penalties all the oppositiou in his Mr. SPOONER said he could not con4ent to give a silent vote un this question. Ile did nut thistly that by voting for the amendment it would have the effect of destroying this bill. On the contrary, they would then go into committee with u clearer understanding of what the bill ought to be (hear, hear,)—he therefore supported the um solment. Believing that no government could shunt without legis lating on this subject, and that this bill. if lush must he re placed by a more stringent one, be felt no hesitation ha voting for the amendment. Loral J. RUSSECCZ, I should hardly have thought it necessary to speak at this period of the debate, were not afraid that amine portion of the house at least might be misled by the statement which has fallen loon the lips of so ' experienced a member of this how.: a. the hon. and learned member for I)or.etahirc. The hon. and learned member said," Here is a proposi , ion laid before the Incase, and I am obliged to say aye or no to that proposition." Now nothing could be more mistaken than that asset. . The real ques tion before the house is this. A bill was introduced by her Majesty's government, which hill on its at 1 read ing received the support of a very large majori y of the house, the numbers being, I believe. 130 to 0.1. The house having thus approved of the second reading of that bill, it is uuw proposed, in the usual murse of pro ceeding, to go into committee, and therefore the regular question bef.ire us is that the Speaker do leave the chair. Upon this un hon. member gets up and ))))) vis a vote of censure mt the government, which, as he son's, will sweep away the government and the bill tw,(ellier ; and the lion. and learned gentleman opposite takes advantage of lids paltry and shabby pretence to vote against the bill which he supported on the second reading. (Loud ministerial cheers.) The bare technical question will not be to affirm or deny the pmposition of the honourable member 11rr Stafford. The motion is that the Speaker do now leave the chair, and the question put will be that those words stand part of the question. There is, therefore, out the least foundation fir saying that hon. members who disapprove of the conduct of government are bound to vote fur this amendment, and I am astonished that a member so experienced us the 1 and learned member fur Donwtahire should make the statement. (Hear, hear.) With less authority, at an early part of the evening, the noble lord the member for Colchester says that it is quite impossible he can refuse his assent to thus proposition, that it is merely a proposition that two and two make four, and therefore incontrovertible. Well, really I hardly think the noble lord is in quite such a dilemma as he supposes. Suppose that in the case of any other bill a proposition identical to the present were made, and suppose that au hon. member got up before the Speaker left the chair, and said, " I have a curious arithmetical problem to solve. I wish to know whether two and two make four, and I must have the quest' discussed before we go into the m a i n question."(.klaugh.) What would the house think of such an excuse for voting for an amend ment 1 (Hear, hear.) But the hon. gentleman the mem ber for Dorsetshire, and, lastly, the hon. ;itemiser for War wickshire, have given explanations which must be truly edifying to those members who think they are going to get rid of the bill by this proposal. They say that this is a vote of censure on the government, because no government can remain after such a vote, but that with a new government we must have a new and better bill, and the honourable member for Warwickshire delights in the prospect of more stringent measures. (Hear, hear.) A better bill, iu his estimation, would be a more penal and persecuting one. What is this proposition which they say is so valuable, that it cannot be passed by? It is, that the recent conduct of the l'ope, in dividing England into dioceses, has been en couraged by the conduct and declarations of her Majesty's government. Now, the hon. member who spoke last says that these words apply not only to the present, but to pre ceding governments. It is propostsl thou to affirm that all the conduct of the present and re cent governments with respect to the Roman catholic, all their concession, liberality and justice, has been wholly and completely erroneous. (Hear, hear.) Now, sir, I totally deny that proposition. I deny that the con duct of recent governments, or of the present government, has been legitimately the cause of the present papal ag gression ; for, sir, 1 should say, according to all the usual -~ _- THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, MAY 10, 1851. laughter.) He could not say that he had ever much confi dence in any government, but he would not on this occasion attempt to question the good faith of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in proposing Isis amendmenls. (Hear.) Mr. DISRAELI thought that great gratitude was due to the gallant officer for the ability and perseverance with which he had always pursued this object, in which at but he had been successful. He also complimented the go vernment for the good sense and feting which they had shown in thus yielding. (Hear.) Mr. CHAPLIN also lagged to thank the government for the great fay our which they had shown to the agri culturists. isir:llOONER said that there was a class of yeomanry who occupied small farm of their own, and he would put it to his right hon. friend whether he would not extend the boon to them? (Hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said no one could be considered a small owner of land who had a farm the rental of which was 300/. a year. Ile bad, however, provided for any ease in which the party obtained his liveli , bust by the farm. Mr. BRIGHT said he was somewhat surprised at the fa cility with which the right hon. gentleman had proposed this alteration in the hill, seeing that within the last few days be had expressed an opinion that the bill was nearly perfect, and that no valuable alteration could be made in it. Ile wished to call the attention of the right hon. gentle man to a point which, he was afraid, was not generally j understood. There was a very considerable difference be tween the mode in which farmers were taxed under this act and persons in trade. Both modes were, he believed, 'somewhat inconvenient to persons who paid the tax, but the': difference was this, that farmers were never liable to be j surcharged. They were nut liable to be charged above a certain sum, which they knew, anal which in an or di nar y run of years everyboay would admit to be a moderate charge upon the ordinary profits of farming. (" No, no.") The farmer would have an appeal against the govern ment in case he made less than 114. g. a year, but the govern ment would have no appeal against him in case he mode more. It appeared to him that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was really substituting one sort of injustice fur another under the pretext of amending the act. Ile hoped the right hon. gentleman would take the matter into his consideration. Mr. CHRISTOPHER said the hon. member for Man cheater was quite mistaken in supposing that tenants were never surcharged. After a few words from Mr. Bright, Mr. E. Denison, Sir J. Trotlope, and Mr. Booker, )Ir.ll EXLEY said the case was stronger than it had been represented to be as regarded the power of surcharge. In the case of a farm, the occupier of which paid 5001. a year as rent, if an officer of the crown proved to the satisfaction of the commiesiouers that it was worth 6001., the occupier had to pay not onle 31d. in the pound upon the 4001. a year, but also an additional 7d. in t he pound upon the re maining 100.. The clause then added to the bill. Colonel SIBTIIORP then propooed to add to clause 1 the following proviso :—" Prop/Mod also, that nothing in this act contained shall authorise the continuance of so mach of the rates and duties granted heretofore under whiolule E of the said first recited act, no reltteo to the pay and allowances of the offictro in her Majesty's army or navy." The hon. and gallant colonel woo understood to wry, that though he strongly wished to obtain this boon for! the officers of the army and navy, who were a meritorious class of public servant., he would not pre.. his proposal. but content himself with recommending the Chancellor of the Exchequer to take the matter into his serious conside• ration. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, great as the merits of the officers of the army and nary were, he multi not admit that they had a totter claim to exemption titan many other claws of her Majesty's subjects; and he could not, therefore, accept the proviso. The proviso having lx.eit withdrawn, Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY, in pursuance of his notice, called the attention of the house to the necessity of provid ing some effectual custody of papers relating to the pro perty tax returns. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said there was no necessity for introducing a clause. The ease was one fur instructions, and in point of fact instructions had been issued with the clew of attaining the greatest possible security. After a few words by Mr. IL ynolds, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Grattan, the bill as amended was agreed to. THE ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES ASSUMPTION BILL. On the order of the day for going into committee on this bill. ..... Mr. J. REYNOLDS prevented a petition. agreed to at a meeting of Roman catholic. held iu the ILduuda, Dublin, on the 29th of ln.t month, agaiied the Errir 4 vistica Tie , * .t..utupt . Bill and the Iteligiou. Ifou.te Bill. On the motion of Mr. It r. vN "Los the petition woo nail by the clerk from the table. . On the que,twa bung put, that the Speakerdo leave the chair, ..... Mr. URQUHART rose, in pursuance of notice, to move the following noolutions : Tint the recent act of the Pop,, in dividing England into ilioems, and appointing bishops thereto, was cticouraged by the conduct and declara tions of her Majesty's government. That the publication by Lord John Russell of his letter to the Bishop of Durham, which um( tined Oil/m.040114 calculated to wound the religious 6 (dings of many of her Majesty's subjects, produced lark expectations of kgislative remedies which have been ilisappointsil 17 the provisions con tained in the measure now submitted to the house." The hon. m..mber, who spoke at first in a very indistinct manner, was understood to say, that the house had new favourably opportunity of recinisiilcriug a 111 ,. :01111: which was of a tiovions character, :mil which nearly all parties iu that house would, he believed, be glad to get rid of. The conduct of the government, in reference to this matter, had been such us to excite painful animosities and to raise ex pectations which could not be fulfilled, and parliainent was now reduced t-i the necessity of either carrying out persiru- Ron, or oliservin4 neutrality. The resolutions of which he had given utak, were, he thought, calculateli to en sure the support of all partii -; and they affirmed 11211 y what bail been either aus.22-ted or admitted in debate. The hon. member, who was ahilost inaudible, prir:soded to opinions and sib-serrations made at slitforent times by the noble lord at the head of the government, with refer- eney to the papal aggression. He believed that the propositions of the noble lord were not made in good thith, and that, if successful in the house, they were not ns,ant to be honestly carried out. (Hear, hear.) ii, contended that the act of the Pope was no violation of the law of nations, nor of their practice in relation to papal instrums uts : and, in con clusion, in adverting to the letter of Lord J. Russell, lie condemned the promulgation of such an ilia minatory document at a time when the government might have negotiated with the court of UMW., which :dime called for a vote of censure upon the government. Ile maintained that the noble lord had distinctly en couraged and entirely sanctioned the first part of the Pope's proceedings, especially that act which he now de nounced as a violation of the law of nations. And lie would add that whoever concurred with him in that opinion must not be content with giving his vote against the bill, but ulso must express his censure of the conduct of a government that had been guilty of so such tergiversation. It had In en said in a former debate that the conduct of government had nothing to do with the question. His position was the converse of that. Ile could see no reason why the amendment hepruposetl should be objected to by the Roil:mm:lkt themselves, inas much as it would get rid of un inconvenient bill, and leave them free to mike such arrangs menu for the future r•da tions between this country awl the papal states its might be Road most desirable. And though no doubt the ami ud moot would he in elfect a vote of censure upon the past conduct of the government in relation to this subject, yet as the nob': lord hail declared the other night, wits n called upon by the hon. and learned member for Slietfishl to ex plain wl7 he continued to remain in office afti r having licen four times left in a minority, that he would oily re sign on a direct vote of want of confidence, there was nu reason for urging against this proposition that it would lie. the resignation of ministers and the inconveniency and agitation of a general election. UP this rue oure of the government some said it would br. a nullity, others argued that it was persecution; in his opinion it was both. If carried tato effect it would be persecution, and if nut it would be a nullity. Ministers were between two alternatives—that of opening up a religious persecution throughout the world, or on the other hand of exhibiting this country us engaged in a futile attempt which must end in giving a great and splendid triumph to the Pope —a triumph over the minds of the men of England. It was to avoid both of these alternatives that he asked the house to agree to his amendment. The amenducut having been seconded, and put from the chair, Sir 6 . GREY observed that in consequence of the almost general conversation prevailing in the house while the hon. gentleman was addressing it, he had been unable to catch all that fell from him, especially iu the earlier part of his address: but, as he understood the hon. gentleman, he cora meneed by expressing his regret that he had not succeeded in catching the eye of the Speaker in the debate on the second reading of the bill, and that he was therefore anxi ous to take this opportunity of stating his objection to its principle, and proceeded to ask the house to reopen the whole discussion and reverse a decision arrived at after a debate of seven nights' duration, and affirmed by a ge ntl em an 433 against 95. (Hear, hear.) But the ho had gone further. He had asserted in the latter part of his speech that the object of his amendment was to get rid of the bill, to undo all that had been dane with regard to the late act of papal aggression, and to leave the act of the Pope, which had excited—and justly excited —such strong feelings of excitement and indignation in the country, to take its course, unchecked and unimpeded. And more than this, the hon. member proposed to prevent not only the going into committee to consider the details of • bill the 4 cond reading of which had been confirmed as he had said by so large a majority, but to meet the motion for going into committee by an amendment which involved— and narrowly involved—a vote of censure upon the govern ment; and strongly misconceiving what had fallen from his noble friend (Lord J. Rweiell) the other night, in answer to the hon. and learned member fur Sheffield, the hon. mem ber towards the close of his speech said that this not being a vote of want of confidence, but only • vote of censure on the government, put forward as a means of getting rid of the bill, the government ought to be obliged to him and submit to it without subjecting the house or the country to the revolu tion of a general election, which a change in the government would cause. The hon. member had wholly misconceived the statement made by his (Sir G. Grey's) noble friend in answer to the hon. and learned member for Sheffield. His noble friend drew a clear distinction between the cir cumstance by which ministers had been placed in a mino rity en the occasion referred to by the hon. and learned member, and their being placed in a minority on a vote of censure or want of confidence, under which he said the whole of his colleagues entirely concurred with him,it would be impossible fur the government to continuo to hold office. (Hear.) lie would not detain the house by going into the general argument advanced by the lion. gentleman against proceeding with the bill, but he might be permitted to call attention tithe fact that the hon. gentlemen's reso lutions, as they were now submitted, were very different from those of which he originally gave notice. The hon. gentleman now proposed that the house should nut go into committee ; but that the bill should be swept away, while a substantive vote of censure against the government should be substituted , founded partly on their general policy, partly on their conduct previous to the act of aggression. partly on this bill, and partly on the letter of his noble friend. Now, what was the nature of the rem lotions of which the lion. gentleman hail given notice " That the act of the Pope was invited by the express de claration of the prime minister, and resulted from the mea sures taken by the foreign secretary in Italy, which, by prostrating the temporal milependowe of the Pope, placed his spiritual authority in this realm, and throughout the rest of Europe, directly at the disimmal of the powers who rule at Rome, viz., Austria and France, and halirectly, through them, of the Russian cabinet and the Greek church. That all legislation (heyond that requisite to protect the auelent usages of the Roman catholics of this kingdom against the usurpations of the recent rescript), tends to ad vance, nut to frustrate, the objects in this measure of the Patriarch Czar, namely, the political distraction of England by means of Ireland, and the religious distraction of the west by the rekindling of discord between the two other section:toff the Christian world." (Cheers and laughter.) Such was the opinion entertained by the hon. gentleman on the ith of April, the day on which this resolution stands on the paper in his name. Then he proposed, not a vote of censure on his noble friend the First Lord of the Treasury, but on his noble frieuel the Secretary fur Foreign Attars, dividing with great impartiality that censure with the Pope. himself. (" Heir, hear," and a laugh.) Tne hon. gentle man then thought the Pope would be able to convulse the country East and West, and produce results which he said ' could not be averted by legislation. (Hear ' bear.) He mentioned this merely to show that the hon. gentle man was not a safe guide fur the house to follow when he asked them to undo all they had dune, and satisfy themselves by taking no further step in respect to a measure the second reading of which they had affirmed by so overwhelming a majority. (Cheers) The hon. gentleman had adverted especially to the conduct of the government, by which, as he alleged, the aggressiou had been invited ; but so far as he hail heard the lion. gentle man, he could collect no other charge than that which re lated to the conferring of titles on the Irish Roman catholic prelates. Upon this poiut he hail before stated, and he now repeated, that, looking at the posi tion of the Roman catholic prelates in Ireland, in reference to the great body of the people he thought it a wise and is liberal policy—and showing a due and proper deference to the Irish people that those outward marks of honour should be conferred on their ecclesiastical prelates, provided government in doing so violated no law or esatute of this realm. (Hear, hear.) Ile conlvszed lie had not ex pected that advantage would be takeu of that caress' us it had been taken, but when the hon. gentleman mode this a charge against ministers, he should remember that those titles were coneesled year belOre the present ministry came into ottice, and were quoted in the Charitable Be queats Act, in all the proceedings under which the Irish Roman catholic prelates had been designated by their eccle siastical titles. But the charge that the government, by making concessions to the Roman catholics of Ireland, were inviting Roman catholic aggression, was by no means a new one. It had been used as against the Emancipation Act, the Maynooth Act, the Bequests Act—and against successive governments when administering the affairs of this United Kingdom, they thought it their duty to submit to the house those measures which, as he thought, were directed by a wise, just, unit libe ral policy, and which, though proposed by 0- vernoteuts of which lie was not a jumbos he had supported, and of which he and his colleagues were ready to take their full share of the responsibility. The hon. gentleman asked the house to join him in a vote of coudeinuation of the letter of his noble friend on ac count of one passage as leading to the expectation of exten sive legislation. That passage was,—" There is an assump tion ea power in all the eloamuients which have Mlle troan Rome—a pretension to supremacy over the realm of Eng land, soul a claim to sole and undivided sway, which is M e:oils:stood with the queen's supremacy, with the rights of our bishops an I clergy, and with the spiritual independence of the nation, as asserts:a even in Ronan catholic times." He was not now going to argue this question, or to ten tier proofs in continuation of the statement* made in that letter totow hide the lion. gentleman had objeeted; hilt when the hon. gentleman asked the house to pass a vote of cen sure on the goveniment in general, and on his noble friend in particular, for penning this paragraph, lie must take leave to remind him that an opinion having 'Well pro nounced on the part of the house, the complaint of the house- was not that the act was nut necessary, but that it did not go the length required. But the hon. gentle-man confined his censure to this ground—that it led to an ex pectation of an indefinite extension of legislative nosistorea on this subject. Now he could bet - nothing leading to that tenon...ion in it. (Hear, hear.) There were those who, taking as stung a view as flit - 11011. gentleman as to the act of the Pape. thought that without legislation —at all events in the first instance—the difficulty might be met by a new resolution of parliament ; and there were others who thought that a proelaneatiou from the crown might have sa tisfied the emergency of the ease - , but 111131 V of [ltem differing front the import:me of the case, or differing front leis noble friend astotheapirit and tenor of the act of the Pope. (Items) But the Imo. gentleman hail omitted a paragraph which was subversive altogether of the idea of extensive legisiatiun. si Upon this subject, then, l will only say that the present state of the law skill lie carefully examined, Lind the pro priety of adopting any proceedings with reference to the recent assumptions of power deliberately considered." What lie asked of the house was, to agree to theinution that the Speaker leave the chair, and not to stultify them selves by turning round now, after having affirmed the principle of the bill by so large a naajurity, and declaring that they would take no further steps in regard to it, but that they would rentitiu quiet and acquiescent while their titles said their authority were exercised under the reseript of the Pope. (Hear, hear.) After a few words in explanation from Mr. UtteaultAUT, Mr. FRESIIFIELD observed that he would nut stop to inquire whether government had, en the hon. 'smellier for Stafford said, encouraged this aggression. The question was, were they, because ministers might have invited that aggression, to deprive the country of that legislation which the case required i It appeared to him that the argument of the hon. member fur Stutford was immaterial and irrele vant to the question at issue, and lie regretted that the time of the house should have been so long occupied uselessly in considering it. (Ileac.) Lord J. MANNERS differed with the hon. gentleman who iced just spoken, and thought much good would result front the mere pruchunation of the truth by a resolution in the Journals of the House of Commons. And it wits the encore importaut, he cause the noble lord in his ever memorable letter took especial pains to prevent the people of England from oweiug the real truth, which he desired should he asserted. The other day the noble lord was almost willing to risk the disruption of the church of Eutaw], ill order, nt\id:ai ; as he (Lord J. Manners) supposed, to prevent the people cslcyans from arriving at the real truth as to this papal aggression. It was so even when fair and candid men like Dudley Per ! rival and Earl Powia placed the truth before the country. 'Pile noble lord twice, us leader of the opposition, publicly in Las place invited and encouraged this very set of the pupaes• against which his puny mut delusive legislation was now directed. (Cheers.) Again, twice the noble lord had, as prime minister, refused mid misted the attempt of the church of England to increase her episcopate, and by that • nitisal had preserved fur the Pope those great towns O England which might clue have been the WV. of English prelates. Then the noble lord had, by the acts of his go- I vernonent, granted precedence in our colonial empire' to the archiepiscopal nominees of the Pope eyed the whole su ff ragan bishops and the whole of our colonial community, and in excess of cour tesy had granted a similar precedence to the titular • Arilibisliops of Ireland. And while he was giving this encouragement to the Runtish church, he had refused a i grant to the established church of Ireland—a grout for ! scriptural schools. The noble lord, whose whole policy had been one long concession to the claims of the church of Rome, and one long monotony of wrung and insults to ; the church of Englauel, the only real harrier to Rome, hoed i succeeded, by a magic stroke of his pen, in plaeing himself before the people as the only champion of protestautism, o m f iser E a?, g sy li t a,t h ic ' rt to o m t a l h ;ise h g : : e r4 h ueh a sii ;:ti n s ioi e t : T, and the only real and determined opponent of Bir nd the church of Rome. When the noble lord ot l onh i hfu s ai ehsl pending promises, cocuchp been uw. Before freed .ref, t.t:i h wa s r ocrd: came into office Le admitted that the number e. r i ! o h,. o n ,, p wml aggression Nt ! h el et t u p o at n eh t . h cni e : m : and he rejoiced to say that government and th wu si a°.l the governuteut conceded the just and reasonable claims put forward by the Wesleyan, or the subject of education. At the same time negotiations were pending between the Roman catholic' of England and the government, and these ended in the concession of the claims of the ' Roman catholics. The merits of the bill might he us great as the enthusiastic Muster of the Rolls had pro claimed them lobe ; but, whether that was so or not, the hou se was now called upon to consider whether the resolution of the I hon. member for Stafford embodied the truth. Ile I (Lard J. Manners) would vote for it, because h e was con i - vinced t was the truth, because he thought it of great public importance to place on record on the journals of the house a deliberate condemnation of the past policy of the government which had led to this aggression, and also be cause he thought it of importance to hold up that policy as a beacon to warn future administrations against pursuing r similar line of misconduct. (hear.), a Strangers were here ordered to withdraw, but no division took place. Mr. SADLEIR said the meaning of the resolution was this—that government had encouraged by their acts the establishment of a hierarchy in this country similar to that which had for centuries existed in Ireland. Now, the Roman catholic memb,rs had on former occasions de clared that, if any insult to the Queen was meditated by the aggression, they would be the first to repel it ; and he repeated that declaration now. It was imposaible, how- I