The Express. — London, England, 1853-04-07 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, THURSDAY EVENING, APRIL 7, 1853. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. ' HOUSE OF COMMONB.—WEDNESDAY, APRIL 6. The house met at 12 o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. Titian Re %tit:4o4.—S.Nord Extension sod Improvement Bill (an amendment to be proposed) ; Whittle Dean Water works Bill (ill amendment to be proposed). SacuNti RIADINO.—LudIow Cattle Market and Slaugh terhouses Bill. _ .... _____ PUBLIC BUSINESS. PETITIONS PRESENTED. RUNDAT OPINING or CLITSTAL PALACE.—By Lord CHELSEA, from minister, warden, and congregation of St. John's Chspel, Layer ; Mr. CHILD, from inhabi!ants of Stone, Staffirdshlre ; Mr. DODD, from parishes in Shropshire; against. I'ItODATILS GT WILLS AND 011•NTA Or ADMINI4TRATION BILL —By MV. GEORGE DUN DAS, from the Edinburgh and Bathgate Railway Company; in favour of. UMITIRIITT TUTS Is SVOTLAND.—By Mr. CR AU FU RD, from visited prosbyteriancougregeoun of the parish of 0:el Cannock and Oirvan, Ayrshire; for repeal of. (Scats PE:Ar POSTAOE.—By Mr. DANBY SEY MOUR, from Shinbones ; in favour of. RATING MINES.—By Mr. BAINES, from Illogan and Permouttee, Cornwell ; for an improvement in the law of. CONAULIDATILD ANIIVITIZA.— By Mr. LUCAS, from die Navas Board of Gravities; fur the remission of. Pan ND INcosa TA: —By Sir GEO. GOOD MAN, from 61 _physicians and surgeons in the town of Leeds sad issiiedUite vicinity ; for • modification of. FARLI from members of the Brainier? Mechanics' Institution ; for. Atiotsstost or Jaws To PARLI , . . By Mr. DODD, from Bola', in Shropshire; Mr. MOODY, from Sampford Budleigh; against. ANNI AL CIIIITITICATI TAIL—By Mr. MOODY, from solicitors of Crooks nu ; for repeal of. PROBATES OF WILLS AND GRANTS OF ADMI- NISTItATIO'S BILL.—GOVERNMENT SCHEME. Os the order of the day for the second nailing of this bill being read, The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said—lle thought it ne• CSISAIT that they should have a very clear understanding of the grounds on 'which this bill should be admitted, on the part of the goverumeut, to be read a second time. The purpose of the bill suers the impott ince of which could seemly be ex aggerated. It would be in the recollection of the house that he had stated, on 'Corrine occasion, that in case the report of the commission which was sitting on this and cognate subjects was not presented within a certain period, he would consider it his duty to lay on the table of the house a measure which wouldsmbrace the whole 'object— that subjeet upon which there bed been incessant but fruit less attempts to legislate ever since 1830. The present bill, it would be observed, was directed only to a very fragmen tary part of that extensive subject. It was directed exclu sively to th:s particular mischief; the necessity which at present ezisted,in consequence of very defective machinery, of having, on many muting, probates ranted, and admi siitratioc. taken out, in different ecclesiastical courts. By way of introducing the matter, though he believed it was familiar to almost every hon. member, the house would probably indu:ge him while he sketched the present state of our ecclesiostisal jurisdiction in this respect. There was, at present, the Prerogative Court of the Archbishop of Can terbury and the Prerogative Court of the Archbishop of York ; and the probate of a will or an administration granted in one province was now of no avail in the other province. Then were. besides, the Diocesan Consistorial Courts of the Bishops of Dioceses; and, again, independent of these jurisdictions there were, at least, 300 smaller tri bunals scattered over the country, which were called Peet- liar's Courts, reek of which, over a particular area had a right of jurisdiction of granting probates of wills and letters of administration. The consequence of such a complication not unfri queenly was that a will had to be proved, fint in Canterbury, and secondly in York, that then a further pro bate wit required in Scotland, and even again in Ireland; and by the evidence which came before the commission he had, retorted to, it would appear that there were numerous casts in which it was requisite that the same will should be prated, in different courts, not less than sin times. To this description of mischief this bill to • certain extent addressed itself; but, unfortunately, it was so badly worded and so imperfectly expressed that, in the attempt to remedy the evil, it would, in point of fact, render the evil ten times more insufferable than it was at present. Mese, hear.) Ile alluded, particularly, to toe first section, which provided, with a very inadequate view of the subject, that any probate of a will or letters of administration " that shall he granted, in England or Ireland, by any court or authority having jurisdiction to grant such, in respect to any part of the personal estate, shall be, in all such cases, equally valid and effectual, in respect to the whole of the personal estate ;" and if the bill were permitted to pass is that form of word., and if the same will must still be proved in a dozen different tribunals, the result would be that there would then be • dozen different probates all of conflicting authority. (Hese hear.) It was eiear, therefore, that the good intent of the: bill had been completely marred by an imperfect and in. sufficient form of expre.sion. He admitted that this diffi culty, and the other difficulties arising out of bad wording, could be remedied in committee, and, no doubt, if the bill was to proceed at all, it is to the committee only they would have to look. But he would humbly suggest to the house that the best c tree would be this—that the bill should be allowed to be read a second time, but only pro form!, and on the clear understanding that it should Tennis on the table of the house' until an opportu nity should be afforded the government of bringing in that larger MUM* on the whole subject to which he had be fore adverted; and then, if the opportunity thus afforded should not be- taken advantage of within a reasonable time, he would of genres not be entitled to object to this parti cular bill now before the house going on into committee ; sad in committee it would be his earnest desire so to amend the bill, and engraft on it such provisions, as would render it at ail events a very considerable instalment of the much needed and long promised reform with respect to the testamentary,luriediction of the country. (Hear.) With this view he would proceed to state, in • few words, the addi tional previsions which he thought it would be amasser! to incorporate in this bill, and in consideration of the desirableness of which he was alone jus tified in makirg his present proposal to the house. The first thing which they should attempt in this matter was the total abolition of the Peculiars Court's jurisdiction. (Hear, hear.) , They stood at present in • peculiar predica ment. Legislation had long ago been aimed at them ; and they were doomed to be extinguished by the act of the 6th sad 7th Wm. IV., 5.77. In truth this jurisdiction, which lad ever bees en opprobrium to the eivilizatiM of the country, bad Item onstiased, from time to time, is • very extraordinary way, by the mem email sem penal Or the strange k Fee of searsaillas the wrecks 0 that very act a 6 7 Wm. IV 77, c. .In fact, theme seeds had been alive by what might he regarded as ea anneal act of isidesanity. Bat this esuM set he eagetealte go on meets Roster ; and, If the larger mom* eleanai ma be brought itt, and if this bill, also, with emeadome Wee ducted into it, should set he penal Into a law, he warned the persons who wen 011111111111811 la bebsiz a r eis tlsoes ea anal acts of suspends* M. "deo the ef these mischievous once • he await . mmernalem li• peemeed to appeal t• t he sums eif the Imes MOW the object of the ad he bed gusted s us _ _lay Mager be thus avoided; , hear.) The AsMati el then Peculiars warts es the teitemehimy jedeildka of the country in • new gmiesa. The Diemen Osuds would rank with the two seeds of-the gIISSIDSGS of Oimierlary sad York i aad the mugged whidi he mold hereafter sub mit to t h e lose wend have he he shied, moo other Zlge, to Men* ellniether the imeespdlart . court of the e d Y in eV ait emd to MAIM me mart of M takT b Ziet the whde t el a tr enl n 4 b arit oat all sedgesle i s m - The phrase " esatestime kehdiell " wig nobs • little *a nimation Am Me hmelt r ef theme penmen who were not esamemall WM legal gbeseedegy. There were three forms of pinks a will. Oa,. whisk am seised is teehnisel ke el a will is IMMO alla=bld• to PoolltYi i r rarnar t essee thee Woke in as of the do OZ. main= sod ettestedee MI TM balk, women seisbed ir Ihe kw ; and then, if, on the foe ef Ile Mem meat, Ohm appeared se elgesehm leAlte ...bai n of the set, the will wee pined uthineat Perim 111111. wit proof of • will la common Lis ad WM Ibiesser• tins of about armtrath er en- et the mils mega in the country, all wills might be aid Mae Mimi fa Mal feria. Obviously it wend be very destrabie that thinheabl be pensituthte be den in the mow most eemessisel for the purposes of them poem who en redden Ia the oouatry, and whooped set,, ohm hem pesemenat NSW miry, be geespelled, fee orb ea sliest, to Newt to the metropolis. The premed. therefore, would be that there should nada to the Dieser& °warm who would remain unaffected by the &Wham of the Peculiars Comte, the power of eammialeg the "motion of the probable of wills in commis firm ; not giving them contentious jurie dictiost, whisk implied baptise tad complicated pram dun ; not giving them the pewee of having wills proved in Wenn form by the elaborate mantiaation of witnesses; bat leaving them to maim in capes of estates sot exceeding • limited amount—of about 1,0001. or l,7oo4.—thee power of receiving and psesiog wills in common form. He would. however, olds _he in favour of giving the Diocesan Courts this power mint sertala qualifications. The first c mdition Irbil* he midi alleali would be of this nature. The Dio esemn Courts wow palled seer by the Chancellors of the Diocese, sad lbw Chancellors were judicial oilers ap• pointed by the Odle diocese. Is sissy of th•Dissesaa C ou rts Sheet were gistlemon who had Meadely trained in the of the law, and eadeabledkr fal as:g: flied the f of their dime with gnat eldilly, ead to the emitted eatilhenea of the pewees ahem kennels were affected by Mese ewers. BM die wee eat the MN uni versally ; and trelisCe woo* tokolOwstly. be le allow testamentary le the extent be bed meatiemed to j be retained in the diseases mad; 'ablest le the 'sedition that in every diodes the elemeallor shall be • lawyer of • eertain stapling at the her, sod of certain qualifications in the profession of barrister. There was another condition m necessary to be attached. The house would bear in mind the great advantages that were to be derived connected with the probates of wills, as indicating the value of estates, from a system of general registration ; and he would propose that every will proved in the manner he had stated in the diocesan courts should be transmitted to the general registry of wills to be established in London, in which all the wills at present scattered smog the various diocesan and peculiars courts, and in future to pass throat/1i the diocesan courts, shall be congregated, copies only beilg kept for reference in the registries of the diocesan courts. With thes, qualifLations he would be for leaving the pawn of proviso wills in common form in the diocesan courts; and the house could net but be aware that it would be a hardship in the average cases of penes. resident in the provinces to make it neces sary fur them, for this mopes, to have to vrort to t`..ci me• tropolis. But even is the peeving of wills in ounnuta hem gentians and difficulties arose; and it would he pre =tint in all such instances the matter should be re fer decision to the metropolitan court. Not only, elm would all contentions jurisdiction connected wite3hp iissersaiessian of suits arising out of disputed "WM emitted in the metropolis ; but, fees, all cases that4itlite wise in course of determination of wills in comma. would, in the same manner be referred tb illealsal tribunal. Connoted, farther, with them d Ism courts he would propose to extend ttlsleattriffillemip powers of administering estates; and he would do wro — for what he regarded as satisfectory reasons. The house would, he thought, coincide with him in the necessity of ' weibming the powers and jurisdiction in these matters as much as possible in the same tri band ; for the great evil at present existing, in addition to the other evils of ecclesiastical jurisdiction, lay in the eircumatioce of the jurisdiction of provicg • will and granting administration being exercised by a tribunal which was perfectly distinct from the tribunal to which ap pertained the power of administering the estate and effects of the deceased party. In continuing, therefore, these powers to the diocesan courts, which it would be de sirable to contiose, for a variety of reasons, la addi tion to those he had most broadly. stated, it would be regret that there should be given to the county MEN collaterally with the diocesan courts the right Of administering, to a certain amount, the effects of deceased persons. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the ge tropnlitati Court, what he proposed was that that court should he at once transferred, as it at present existed, with all its staff of sisperienced practitioners—Vii., proctors, re eistran and clerks of the see—to the Court of Chancery. He sa id the Court of Chancery for the some mars he had jut given; for the Court of Cuancery was the only tri bunal to which the administration of the property of de ceased persons belonged; and, therefore, the only court which would have the power of exercising the authority to take cognisance of wills affecting personal estates, and also lof wills affecting real estates. The house was aware that there was at present a great anomaly in the system in this respect. You proved a will in Doctors'-commons, and the proof of that will, when decided on by that tribunal, is binding with respect to remand estate; but, then, the decision of that tribunal as to the whole of the personal estate is not of the smallest effect or operation with respect to the validity of the same instrument so far es it affects real estate. The result, as was only to be expected, was great confusion, • varier y of conflicting decisions, and of contradictory detenninatiws--he was not speaking theoreti cally—but of what was found to occur in practice ; the same instrument bring valid as a will as regards personal, and inoperative as regards real estate. The only mode in which this evil could be remedied would be to vest in the one tribunal power finally to determine the validity of a will as an instrument affecting both real and personal estate ; and to give that power to the tribunal which has jurisdiction to carry into effect the direction of the instru ment with regard to either portion of the property. The result of that arrangement of the jurisdiction would be this : that the diocesan courts must be regarded as courts placed in connexion and relction with the metropolitan tribunal, vie., the Court of Chancery, which would become the great court of probate; and thus another anomaly in our system would be done away with. At present the ecclesiastical courts are not regarded as Queen's courts, but as deriving their power from Nome sort of spiritual au thority ; but by a transfer of this ecclesiastical jurisdiction to the Queen's court, the Court of Chanosry, that anomaly would be done away with; sad the wh de of the jurisdic tion, as to proof of wills, and administration of estates, would henceforth be regulated and controlled by one tit bunal; the whole business would flow in the same cheer*, and be guided by the same principles; there would be one court of appeal, with the same course of procedure; there would , be no necessity for resorting, for the same end, to different tribunals; the ends of justice would be simply and adequately served; and all the exigencies of the case [ would be answered and discharged by the same court. This would introduce not only conformity but convenience into the system; and would in fact accomolish all that had been so often and so vainly attempted before. In his (mi -1 nion the failure of preview efforts in this direction was attributable to two 011114111. One Mete was that un til the late reform in the Court of Chancery there had been a great disinclination, whatever the desire for a charge, to transfer the jurisdiction of the welesiutical courts into that court, which, indeed, had la boured under • degree of discredit hardly inferior to the reproach attaching to the ecclesiastical courts themselves. But the imperfections of the Court of Chancery had now I been nearly, if not entirely, done away with ; and the time had obviously come to mai; the transfer with the certainty [, that the junsdictioa in respect to wills and to the property of deceased persons, dying intestate, would be regulated is I a manner satisfactory to the country at large. Thera was, I however, one reason which ernented an obstacle, ape patently to accomp'ish such a transfer, and that con sisted in a difficulty with regard to the ques. tion of compensating the persons whose interests would be affected by the change. To avoid this difficulty altogether, he would ask the hewn to go along with him in the recommendation theta the presestellosre of the existing court, the proctors and regissmes, the sleds I of the see, and others, should at once become Where of the Court of Chancery, for the purpose of administering *ls new great jurisdiction, and that there should be gins to them, fur a certain definite period, the conduct of the he* ness of the proof of wills in common form. Ile made this I proposal brans he wee very far from being ingestible to the value and hapeelemee of retaining the esperiers sad 1 ability of that seederisse body of men, the equity_regbs tears, and the pear of the Prerogative Coons. If this anessummt were accomplished—if they were so hinewiliwed to the Chancery Court, and the rights essered to them for a certain period, the duration of shish might be hereafter considered, with re spect to the beigusof proving wills in comems fens, thou he thought would be precluded Item all em. plaint, ask asthemmere, that their peedseissel smelt mesas wadi be ihmei met to suffer by the ter mar. In this way the Wiliam , ' would avoid all that lIIIIMMOMeII and these oblim which on former occasion had Wised is the way of the dissind reform. In connexion with rho err saltier, ittomsssseme Is naiad the beer thin es the lamer andess the had pardied that the Wren of the erre dra' Ohs their sages adder to tater shows nye It _ gm sad sad should sot, epos nth thaer. ite =MO to sempeasa- I des ; sad his Messed Ode _pilot is east eat lid MO WWI hiss teffil *mat prima to soma the rap Or mesh a peapseri obi sew melds. The 6th sTO Wm. IV. already alluded be Assad *eh ie ease re issubli t a bsige,adles rearm ere alive MOM of the deers of Bii&.--Welee, with the easeptin ettlesellhels et the deirille Canter bury. allell Immo esta i = a ==ll should I sle. lathe sent elf dr sequin limp rend_ Weir sompeerties. Teen bs ao dit "salty, theesisee. la Odle, ea be bad prepeesd with re gard to the haiku se ths Diseraia butts, the rights of ether slims might sehrwlee stead in the way of retorts ; Ito be appedesemiell thermoset* seemly be as mimeos that waved aft AU mar tee apart= el the act he had re herd le. AU se Ing these derges leriag bees seemed, the =ll= er sisigidsal, cm the sada* of is this trey. Wbsener a more din Its= s OA pier et esedesse witbis the lfaYO et the jariedie- Os e~p tir sae debt arras worm ;prided 10 setae See see nosed it em zielleg ten users% lt will be era fee ble la he Is the derma sort of his ; bet_ jr OW sondes erre train she proof, or Ore b atig.llNerra ar dittos asides the will, the deli *Mit the trosedss, wish Os litissides, most be removed lathe Cent of Probate In IMAM The like ale will mg, with repaid to the ether of raw dyiag iatiatat• ; and, is she erns of a peers AV e& bagist so find resi ders be a Oars, sr skesi. Or the will tad Si estate shall be preyed est sera by the tretrepeldes wart dish Wills ell ben te be ti l p earesided, whatever pined, te the Merepelites tesis. Admirers*. will do be elifeeleed is Ideas; ad Os steer Stift will the be gnus Or is pert sad martarrisa et thla to reel sad pond ester; red the rile whin at peewit =Dam lake rettered, sad bid, slam is is tbe Amer depedieres et Me e prseiseld A Ira be ns = u Cal The will be the the Os Court 'e m = am will pima at elm., as peon eat wady et determining thelrlik a_ilfeeelagkle be aerial Obi Weet, bat floally ettlirdballog the ores tel the real as era se the whole of do gromell mow All wrier will therfen be at oar trardweed le ere led pros of newt, via., to the lions. of Lards es the apart at appeal, instead of being derided, as sash gesedess sew ere, some mthe Privy Conseil, sad saw fa the . 11nas if Lords, which brag Naively We eeriest juswbe ti ese, est esfreqtratly strive at wids aserieses. (Meer. hem) He hai saw rit wish drain the prehisse et the msserre, w ether van 8=8; be d wo hlids win o, i s r e ssbmit te the bear with the less relaresse, tbsaTer yet se more this bed bra warred et by sesesades earmissiesers, bed buss =relied lea variety eit ISs, sea had beta tem tared seed to be deterOs sitseatisse, bra 1830 downwards. ear, hear.) Ma might eels te the various attempts •to carry such lehmegee IMO 1111616. Is 183,5 a bill was resift is se the lies. if Owner is conformity with *it sessmseseisties of the emir miners, who reported is ISIS 4 ter atabilehleg Woad teams in each province. Is 1836 another hill was flor sho establislusent of one court only for boa la WA a bill was brought in fur the establishment au mart for Eagland and Wales. In the year there was a bill proposing what he had new 1.111,10114 vis,firir see central court and a variety of local inalits. In ter a bill was brought in for establishing a siemlle court of prehiste.. There was another billof the roe Wad be 1844,and eerier to the same effect ir. 1845. There had therefore bees Ia point of fact a series of enemies to the preeideas be bad sketched into effect ; end ke was aware that then were many caste is width Medd her to wait for a more full development, yet thsoght they had both material and information to proceed at ease apes, as well as being In possession of opinions oft n ithitiacsion, from men of every variety of political GU concurring in the propriety and necessity of the eat of owe metropolitan court for the proof and administration of wills, such court to be aided only and in a subordinate way by the provincial courts. (Hear, hear.) The other oh jects that would be accomplished by such a measure were important in other points of view ; bat in order that be might anticipate some possible objections he might at once elate that there would be in that aware a plan for the regulation of caveat in London al me; so that they m'ght be entered in London, and then immediately communicated Ito the diocesan court. Tate result of that would he, that there would be no necessity fur searching a variety of dirt. wean courts for the purpose of arcertainum whether there was any objection to the proof of a will ; the objection would in future he in the caveat in the metropolitan office. And there was another important point. The house was aware, no doubt, of the difference that arose in the adminis tration of estates e r ration of Cie imperfection of the juris dietteMpf ecclesiastical courts to provide fur the administra tion egjgripeety pending disput c ir t Th' would be a y - removedilytintralisi tak the ce 1 of de . tet zo o the a w the rig 1 id ' 1 th ; before mends 'w w " fu ll to ad der 'es ; end empeqdta fly no din' y, touchiet the 'Mu a debnllidrosel takjUloperty, or., 'Mit emboli...Mate ,that anew - nnaNdantlf,sprung up, MUM possibly osier. (Hear, hear.) He had now completed' his list of the base fits that be believed would flow from such a measure as he would, on • suuent occasion, ask the leave of the house to bring in .( Hear, hear.) He had only to say, in conclusion, that if it was perfectly undentood that the pre sent bill was to lie en the table until he had that measure ready, be would not resist the second reading; but if that were not understood, be could not accede to the second reading. Mr. HUME—Would your large measure include Ire land and Scotland ? (Hear, hear.) The SOLICITOR-GENERAL was obliged to the hon. gentleman for reminding Hrn of that point. Undoubtedly it would be desirable to make probates granted is one country of universal effect in the other country; and by the measure be contemplated, though there would be moth. buttons to meet the different circumstences in Ireland, the probate of • will would he of universal effect and acceptc- Ema throughout the United Kingdom. (Hear, hear.) Mr. HENLEY was sure that the house and the country Mould feel the greatest regret that the honourable and 1 di gentleman had not given notice of his intention to make that elaborate and extensive and mast important speech which he had just delivered. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") The hon. and learned gehtleman had taken them by surprise, and bad addressed himself to a thin house, though, had notice of his intention been given, none of those gentlemen would have been absent who were known to take • deep interest in this 'abject (Hear, bear.) It would have been a very prefer , able course if the hon. and learned gentleman had proceeded ' is the regular manner, in the first place given full notice, and only made his statement in moving regularly to bring In that bill which he bad explained, but for which he had demi so date nearer than very likely the end of the swim (Hear.) The hon. and learned gentleman had referred to the commission sitting on this and other sub jab ; but he had not said whether or net he would delay Ms measure until after that commission had reported. (Hear, hear.) From the elaborate details into which the bee. and learned gentleman had entered it was, however, quite clear that his bill was fully matured, that the mind Mike government was made up, and that the measure was quite in a state to be laid on the table. (Hear, bear.) There were some points upon which, however, the hon. and isnemed gentleman was not fully understood. Were Irish amd seeteh wills to be congregated in London, too ? Were 1 Probates granted in Ireland to have effect in Ragland ? ' The SOLICITOR-GENERAL—There would be • Court of Probate in Dublin corresponding to the court io Loudon, and the probate granted in either would run throughout the United Kingdom. That, indeed, was • very important addition to any previous proposition. Mr. HENLEY would ask another question. Are all the courts except the Nieman Courts to be abolished ? The SOLICITOR-GENERAL—The Peculiars Courts, the Consistory Courts of the Bishop, for the proving of wills, where the estate does not exceed • limited amount, would remain. Mr. HENLEY—When ha said abolished, he, of course, meant so fez as regarded tostameetary jurisdiction. But of course the hon. and learned gentleman included in his sweep the archdeaconal courts? [The Solicitor•Gleneral : Yes.] That was very important : for those courts were con sidered by many persons as of great local convenience. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the chancellors of the Diocesan Courts, they were; it appeared to be all barristers; but of the equity or the common law bars ? As far as he (Mr. Henley) understood the Chancellor had nothing to do with the proving of wills; it was all done by the registrar. (Bear, bear.) The hon. and learned gen tleman said no compensation would be necessary to the practitioners in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury be cause they would be passed into the Court of Chancery. But then they were only to have one species of business, that arising out of the common form wills. (Hear, hear.) Who was to have the contentions jurisdiction ? That was to go, no doubt, in common, to the ber and solicitors at large ? [The Solicitor-General—Yes.] Well, that was great injustice ; the proctors would thus be thrown into courts of whose procedure they knew nothing. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the Peculiar Courts the hon. and learned gentleman said that there were few or no instances in which the officers would not have taken office since the 6 and 7 Wm. IV. But if there was an instance what would the hon. and learned gentleman do ? He thought it would be far better to postpone the second reading of this bill, because he thought it would be hardly fair to graft on this measure a measure of so extensive a character as that stated by the Solicitor-General. With reference to this vast subject he decliaed to offer an opinion at present. He thought it a matter of that importance that they ought to see it in detail to be able more fully to con sider it. Mr. R. PRILLIMORE said he hoped that the claims of the advosates in the ecclesiastical courts would be fully con sidered by her Majesty's government, but of this he was quite certain, that no body of individuals bad a right to op pus their claims, whatever they might be, to a great public improvement. (Hear.) He could not presume te offer any opinion as to whether the speech of the Solicitor-General was strictly in accordance with the regular forms of that house or not, but of this he was quite certain, that no one who listened to it could have fait any other emotion than that of gratitude, for a more clear and lucid statement on a lab t, on which the hon. and learned gentleman was not particularly conversant, he never had the good M listen to. He could vouch for the extreme et the statement which the hon. and learned gon- Latad made. He was not aware that in any part of torical narrative there was a single error. With 'regard to this bill be thought the house must be of opinion that the end desired by the bon. member for Sheffield, who had introduced it, was a most desirable one, bet it did happen that the present bill was an instance that the means used exactly defeated the end, and he anheidffied to thehon. gentleman that the confusion which at Moot *Meted would be increased by it. The first aims kited that any probate ranted by any esiett or mr~orlty having power should be in all cases available in Oaf Ma of the missile estate. The mend (knees, omitting tk in a me trant words "in respect of the whole estate , " that any probate or administration by any co urt shield in all eases be prima/46s evidence that it had been radby an authentic tribunal. Now look at the possi onvenience that might arise hen tiro. A person died,aay in Dublin, baring 500,0001. la Wen. aD,OOOI. is Dublin, and 201. is Tehire. He seme s s e ate the bank s t a CaLtr am a i f i t, and I I: ' s T ay* to w ie s " ira : IMIIIITall:3 1 ; Napa the razz ; seal as £tceagzoolassaheyshba: 0 Pit lettret• of ailibbiballill la Ireland. Now as wr t u w ld obb.rve that, tbi nirr i the resent . syste t m ; perm could by • caveat pretest' prX: being granted in that way. A pessom leg bt knee~aft ta four diNor pewrinets, and he 'wee set iimedirisig an imaginery had gra c iossi• iNlilaiiii had WNW *es be bad of sta AWN& There was a Iptween seeelemalitheilqualiar i tieisperaulisre were in sulator abuse Mk The disown Was wire la number Well Imllllwy ewe is bet sanely marls Otte dbeis*, ma Ile bliemfma to deem wee that they *ere in maw eases peculiarly elleered, sad that ilte bade* is alseharget kg atewmy, and that the existing MitiaMeos both in them marts, and the metropolitan swat were wholly hedeleselble. Hr understood the hos. mud lesesed mahatma to say that the registrar who was ,gat left with any jurisdiction whatever should have • legal edn -1 cation as well as Chancellor. He entirely agreed with that observitioa, end le thought that toe mock importance could scarcely he attacked to the elks of ; bat at pesseafthe registrar was ia the mmeleat habit et an , uarsaleatiag with thq _Chamomile* ea all quelling of !Meshy the* might aries. l del awe et the meet diMeall qrsestiess dial AI arise were net them whisk sumo k a santested hem Wore tisial te bat whisk mese ea the lees of the la- Wawa itself. hoped** flelisiSer-Oeseral would take ' ewe that diem was so deputy sad me &ewe, end that the penes who meshed the Rai &ma allselmeire the Alm. The LORA ADVOCATE mil be andante. ge into the Ircpaertioa, bat he only whist in make as observe eial so tar as it affected thoelemil. He understood the of the eiztla Gismo was set manly te make a probate lt will is Ilesimil mead Is lisselemi bets dm to amend a similar preseeding la Seethed to Mislead. Now that was • very desirable °bleat, and one that he r *WI be of promoting, but, unketanately, as the Vel em is would am be applisabie le lleetkad. ,It Imes &hirable to lait *et the hem. pestle. We vibe had brought in the _to ,fmste MI6 him in order to make it applim a bt n e deotknd, and MeloydOrie thought many alterations were required to make dasimilleste hall operative, he was quite ready to support the second lir. COWAN said be had received a petition from mallo ws of alumni:es in Scotland, complaining of the bard- Wpm which existed to many persons connected with them la respect of the present state of the law. Ho bad heard the owations of the Lord-Advocate with great pleasure, said he trusted the bill would be allowed to proceed. Hr. HUHN said he had never heard a sere able and comprehensive statement than that of the Solielaw•Oeseral. He trusted that the bill would make 'revisit* he the um , plete abolition of the existing slseeuries bet he did set wish to meddle with vested interests. The SOLICITOR GENERAL said he had net the least difficulty in shying that it would be one of the repetitions of the masses which he trusted soon to bring in to abolish all these sineestres—(cheers)—which had been the °ppm- Mies of these courts, and he might say of that house, he ssian when they spoke of • sinecure which was at present en lord by one whose name had been so often before the public -. 4tr. Moore—let them remember that that house had same dened the granting of the reversion of the office, and it Mould be unfortunately incumbent on him to provide for dm admission not only of a sinecure in posamision, hut of ow in reversion, which, must be done at the expense of the people of England. Mr. WALPOLE did not think that they should gain anything by the second reading et the bill. On the contrary, as be understood the nature of the proposition which the Solicitor-General had made to the house, he could not embody in this measure the large one which he would propose without a special resolution. For that reason he suggond that the hon. gentleman, who had charge of the bill, should consent to its being read a second time on that day month. Ilia learned friend had announced a very large measure to improve the ecclesiastical courts. In those impevesassa as gar as they had been shadowed teethe - he t say, generally, that he en tirely concurred. Ha red hls hon. and loused friend, that when he wasciads .illealtnfrosith this great subject, natimply„ the juruflictiori of seclesiestical courts in teelOorerf, matter*: he would re d it was absolutely' n dent —with the ' indiction of these i come* ' all other Matters, he wished to ine prom athirst that when he did blies is his bill it ought to be a bill to comprehend the whale of the questions which were now administered by the ecclesiastical courts. If the measure should then beam* so large that it could not be passed during the present session he would withdraw that observation for the present. The principal jurisdiction was the testamentary jurisdiction, and if they took away that jurisdiction they would not leave sufficient to remunerate the practitioners. He wee therefore convinced that ulti mately his hon. and learned friend would be forced to deal with the whole question, and that he might say was the in tention of the late government. Mr. HADFIELD said he thought it would be better to read the bill a second time. The expectation of the . 1 on this subject was very great, and the sufferings families were coasteatly enduring were disgraceful to 1 civilised country. Ile therefore confessed that he was tins ' willing to postpone the bill, but he begged to assure the' Solicitor-Oenerel that if he would take a month to intro duce his measure, he would postpone this measure till the expiration of that period. Mr. MULLINOS was surprised that any expression should hate been used that day to consent to the second reading of this bill, because he was perfectly satisfied this bill could net be made to work without determining a great deal which was matter of principle, and ought to be dis cussed by that house. In cases of intestacy some of the next of kin might live in one county and some in another, in which there might alas be property, and under this bill there would be a race run as to which should get adminis tration first. Ile thought the proposal which had been made that this bill should be altogether postponed for the purpose °fallowing the Solicitor-General to bring in his large measure would be much more fitting than to allow the second reading of this bill. For these reasons he should move that this bill be read a second time that day six months. Mr. WALPOLE explained that in what he said before be meant to state that it was his individual opinion that the question of the ecclesiastical courts should be treated in one general measure. Mr. MALINS concurred in the object of this bill, but thought the measure could scarcely be . carried into effect by any private member when it was considered that the g cut had this subject under consideration by a commission appointed by government. He thought this bill should be postponed till the Solicitor-General had brought forward his measure, rather than that the amendment should be carried, which would cause the bill to be lost. Mr. GEORGE said the Solicitor-General, as he under• stood him, intended that probate should extend not only to personal property but to real estate, and therefore the ob taining of probate for a matter of 1001. in England might affect large real estates in Ireland; and if that were so, he thought full and due notice ought to have been given of so important a measure. There was another point in reference to Ireland. The Solicitor-General proposed a concurrent jurisdiction in England and Ireland in reference to pro bates, sad then they would have the Lord Chancellor of England deciding on the title of Irish estates, and an Irish Lord Chancellor deciding on the title of estates is England. He should therefore vote for the amendment that the bill be read a second time that day six mirth*. Mr. R. PHILLIMORE suggested that the hon. member for Sheffield should accede to the proposition of the right bon. member for Midhurst, that the bill should be post posted for a month. Mr. HADFIELD consented, and an order was made accordingly. AGGRAVATED ASSAULTS BILL. The bonieTtitin vein into committee on this bill. On clause 1, Mr. PHINN said he should not persevere in certain amendments of which he had given notice, but he should persevere in an amendment giving power to inflict corporal punishments in aggravated assaults on women and chil dren. Mr. BARROW then proposed an amendment, providing that convictions under the act should only take place in open petty sessions. He thought two justices, sitting in a private room, ought not to have the power to convict under this act. They might open the door and call it an open court, but the public might not know what was going on, and the object of the amendment was to prevent that. Mr. FITZROY said this amendment was tantamount to the abandonment of the principle of the bill. 'lke object of the amendment was to give delay, which would defeat the object of the bill ; as in nine cases out of ten, when delay took place, women would not come forward to make the cha Mr. HENLEY said delay would be inevitable in country places, as two magistrates were requited ; and when a complaint was made to one they could not whistle for another, es they could fur a dog. (Laughter.) He be lieved that in practice, the effect would be to hear the charges at the ordinary petty sessions. He knew of no other act of parliament by which magistrates had the power of giving six months' imprisonment and hard labour. lie was not arguing against giving the punishment, but for 1 giving it under all proper checks. He thought the clause should be extended to all aggravated assaults, and the term of imprisonment limited to four months. Mr. PACKE did not see the use of the amendment. It was well known that in all cues the petty session was an open court. The hon. and gallant member opposite seemed to have forgotten that at present magistrates had the power of committing tor six months for stealing fruit orvegetables. I Mr. NEWDEGATE supported the amendment, and suggested that it should be extended to the usual time and place foe holding petty sessions, and this being • judicial matter, he thought the court should be open. The bill gave power to inflict a penalty of 201., or six months' im prisonment, and they surely ought not to subject any man to such a punishment without the man's being under such circumstances that he could get legal assistance. Mr. BARROW said the object of the amendment was to mind the case to the ordinary petty sessions. Captain SCOBELL said this was quite a magistrate's question, and they should recollect that they were nearly all magistrates, and they should not be very ready to enlarge their own powers. He perfectly concurred in the amend ment. In ordinary assaults they had no such power, and it would be reversing the order of things if they gave greater power at the private house than at the petty 11.1.1011/. Mr. B. CARTER said the object of the amendment was that there should not be convictions in private houses with out the public being aware of what was going on. There could be no doubt whatever, from the wording of the clause, that the court should be held openly. Mr. BARROW said he attached the greatest importance to publicity, but it could not be gained without the cases being heard at the usual place and day. Mr. PHINN thought that the wording of the clause was " before two or more justices in open court," and It sleek him that that would fully meet the object of the hes. pea- Selma. Mr. NAPIER said that by an existing statate themeless were already made " an open court." Mr. CROWDER greed that the addition of the words •LM Man" we l d, in foot, be adding nothing. He I Ibie dem as wow. "two justices," the weeds 47... . et a pies, where the petty MISSION, ate usually illis tiontuall i T Mr. BAnnoW accepted this sogretlea. Fir. STA LETON proposed the omission of all words leieefinies the scope of the bill to asemilts apes women and 1 , ohlidem, so as to extend its provision to every case of og- Pireseed assault. ~orli Mr. FITZROY was quite willicg to omit the words, be =,he had himself given notice of an amendment to the language of the clause less ambiguous, namely, Ile aim the bill apply to assaults on " all females what MP , Olden all male children whose age, in the opinion of dm Mergistrates, should not exceed 14 years." I he amend , proposed by the hon. gentleman would be maim) , to Napa and title of the bill. LOIJVAINB suggested that the age specified eliould be 16 years, instead of 14. After a few words from Mr. A 01.10143; I The amendment was withdrawa. Mr. FITZROY'S amendment was then agreed to. Mr. PHINN proposed that powers be nto the nage trans to order corporal punishment it addition to the talties already imposed by the bill. It wee impossible to Ant their eyes to the fact that the evil which the measure wet Wended to meet was constantly increasing. Since the premise debate upon the bill there had hardly been two soneesative days without emu case of extraordinary vio lean offered to women or children appearing in the public OM. They ought not to Wolfe in any spurious philan se mawkish sensibility towards the perpetrators of milers in li e u ry t theought These etroimlesook.soerelelynrhthere -t pers ons isol ad Ilittl cues; for women rarely complained, and a seldom brought before the magistrates until % a bad been put upon a long series of illusage by some *lied surpassing brutality. Rs knew there was a good dill at feeling against the infliction of corporal punishment ; but as he supposed no hon. gentleman who happened to see • roam ill•treating • woman or child would very carefully measure the weight of the blow with which be would knock him down, so the legislature ought not to feel any particular tenderness towards offenders Of this deseription. Corporal punishment was by no means MI Ms wit the statute hook as was supposed. No one iyotail my that women and children deserved lees the pro tection of the law than vegetables, dry wood, or saplings • and by the 7th and Bth Oeo . IV., sec. 30, persons convicted a second time of stealing or wilfully damaging them articles to the value of Is. or upwards were liable to the punishment in question. lie did not think that the powers he proposed to give to the magistrates would be used recklessly or wrongly ,• but he was sure that their decisions would be supported by public opinion. Indeed, one of his main ob i,cts was by affixing to this species of offences a shameful end degrsding punishment, to reader it utterly scandalous and abhorrent to the minds of our countrymen, and so to ' raise the public feeling at least to the level of the con tinent, for hon. gentlemen might not be aware that in France to give a blow, even to • man, was considered • very serious offence. With respect to the safeguards re quired, in placing the pewees he proposed in the hands of the justices, there were, to use a very hackneyed phrase, three courses open to the house. The first was to give • power of appe il, but to that there were some very serious objections. As the hen. gentleman (Mr. Fitzroy) had observed, in moving the second reading, it would be very difficult to get a woman to appear against her husband ; cud the Chairman of the Middlesex Session, had mentioned to him (Mr. Phinn) a case which had occurred that very morning. It was a very aggravated assault, and the ma gistrate, not thinking his power sufficient to deal with it, had sent it to the sessions ; but when it was called on the woman did not answer, and of course a wife could not be pat under reoegniaances. The next course would he to 1 should take away, in this case, the constitutional power submit these ewes to Out ; bat ft Was evident that that , of appeal to the Quarter Sessions which was allowed ia an pion eosld not be adopted. The . prereiitori of a jiary was ordinary cases. He should be sorry to aee the power of Inertly to decide open questirios of feet . • and as in these imprisonment in any case given to the megistrates, unless it eases there - was seldom any dispute as to the facts, it was I was accompanied oath • power of appeal. He would not sneer that there watts room fog the lovestigations of a refuse this constitutional right because in some solitary case 'Jury. The plan, then, that he proposedsras, that the cog,- a wife might not appear against her husband at the Quarter petal punishment should not be inflicted'aantil after eight Session. He would therefore propose that there be a right M ap r P . e F al lT to Z t a h O e I n-e sa lt id 4 t u b a a r t te t r li S e e o s t i j o r n ciion of the hon. gen sherleyssi:nbed transmitted that• theacett naceoweebilstntrehoze dr so iti t o h n a s t of the person convicted might have the power of appeal. He amen would affect the principle of the bill, which was was afraid that this was a s s omewhat cleimsy expedient, and that punishment should be indicted as soon us possible. erlor t tt e he should be happy adopt any other that might be (Hear, hear.) and appealed to suggested better calculated to meet the object he had in Mr. HENLEY said he knew of no single reason why view. this case should be made an exception to the general rule Mr. FITZROY should be very sorry to see the amend- of law, which allowed the right of appeal. nientsproposed by the hon.and learned gentleman introduced Mr. PACKE said lie saw considerable difficulty in car into the bill ; because he considered that corporal punish- eying out the proposition of his hon. friend, because when went was quite inconsistent with the public feeling, and a man was convicted before the mag istrates with the character and tone of our modern legislation. He the quarter session, what was to he done with him in the had no sympathy with criminals of this class ; but he meantime ? Was ho to be allowed to go back to the wife thought the proposal likely to defeat the hon. gentleman's or child who had brought him into court ? (Hear, hear.) object of raising the public opinion to the level of that of lie should, therefore, oppose the proposition of his hon. foreign natians. If he understood the clauses aright, friend. the ordering of corporal punishment was to he made impera- The addition of Mr. Fitzroy was then agreed to. tire upon the justices, and:he.thought:thatit would tend very The clime as amended was then agreed to. greatly to shake the magistrate's intention to convict ; and Clause 2 was postponed till the bringing up the report. it would certainly prevent many complaints from being The other clauses were pestpoued, and the Chairman re made ; for there were few women who would subject their ported progress. husbands or paramours to the chance of undergoing such a BURGIIS (SCOTLAND) BILL. degrading punishment. Moreover, no man could suffer On the motion of Mr. Durtur, this bill passed through corporal punishment in public without attracting towards committee. him • certain degree of sympathy. Besides , when a man - d t reerd to with b the printedm inu minutes proceedings iht printed which ELECTION COMMITTEE REPORTS. e is had to undergo the infliction of pain in public , he wo u ld Mr. SOTHE RONinured that the sh reports oof all election c naturally summoa up all his energies to bear it with for titude, and would so exalt himself into a sort of hero. mhamdmnoitttege'll a t° lso og: , that the reports of all election committees, for had been made to the act which had been passed forthwith ' for the prevention of those half insane attacks whic h had together with the minutes of proceedings, be printed. His object in making this motion was simply that the house been made upon the Sovereign by persons anxious to earn should have a record ef these proceedings. Of ss O i f o n n i t n h e e tel i n „u re s - . for themselves some little notoriety. But there had been re no instance of such • punishment being inflicted ; and in- p orts which had been made 'n_th 1 .• h Is t he ar that no record had deed it seemed to him that it would be as absurd to adopt of would he s r' to e o lest the whole principle of km tolionis. as the proposal of the crept of six e t gree. to. hon. and learned gentleman. The house adjourned at 6 o'clock. Mr. PHINN said the words " publicly and privately whipped" were to be found in every act in which corporal - punishment was inflicted ; but if there was any feeling against public floggiag, he should be happy to omit the former word. (Hear, hear.) Mr. NEWDEGATE did not think there was any public feeling against corporal punishment. (Hear, hear) There had been a great deal of maudlin philanthropy of late, but be was not prepared to say that a long imprisonment was the best way of meeting such cases. When corporal punish ment had been indicted two or three times people would take warning, and the act would fall into disuetude. Cer tainly the hon. gentleman's idea of making a man a hero by giving him a whipping was a very strange one. (Hear.) Captain SCOBELL observed that honourable gentlemen who advocated corporal punishment had never seen a man flogged ; or they would never support the clause. (Rear, hear.) If they had seen a man's back scarified, as it was by the lash, they would never forget the sight. Besides, this power they were giving to two justices was not pos sessed by the judges themselves. PIIINN—The judges can order corporal punishment fur every larceny. (Hear, hear.) Captain SCOBELL was not a judge ; but, at all events, in those cases there was • jury as well as a judge. lion. gentlemen bad talked as if this was a matter only between husbands and wives. Why a man might be flogged for beating another woman or another man's child; or one woman might be flogged for an aggravated assault upon another. He (the gallant Captain) had been a magistrate nearly thirty years, but he bad never heard a lash ordered to be inflicted on either a man or a boy during the whole of that time. Mr. PACKE could not bring himself to consent to the amendment of the hon. and learned member, which to all intents and purposes introduced a new punishment. Mr. AGLION BY would support the proposed clauses. Hs did not advocate the infliction of corporal punishment as a general rule, but in cases of extreme pravity he thought it might be resorted to with good effect. At the Manchester sessions it was frequently ordered and was found to work well. The hon. and gallant gentleman talked of a man's skin being lacerated by the lash, but be did not seem to value the skin of poor women, whom the bill was designed to protect. (Cheers.) He did not think that a flogging would procure much public sympathy for the brats who should be convicted of ill-treating • woman. All of what were called gaol offenses were punishable by the lash. He remembered a case at the Manchester sessions where a man who had been convicted took off his clogs and threw, them at the chairman's head. The man was immediately ordered to be taken back to the prison and soundly flogged. The offence had never been repeated; and the puni•hment had had a very beneficial effect. (A laugh.) He hoped the amendment would be agreed to. Lord LOVAINE had been the reluctant spectator of dogging in the army, and he should notwithstanding that note for the amendment. At the same time he thought that corporal punishment should be reserved only for cases which could not be reached by any other penalty. (Cheers.) The hon. and gallant gentleman seemed to think a man might beat another man's wife, and yet not his own. Now, the law gave one power to beat one's own wife and children—(laughter)—to administer to them " wholesome correction," but no one bad a right to raise his finger or even to threaten the wife or children of another person on soy pretext whatever. (Laughter.) Lord PALMERSTON agreed with his hon. and learned friend behind him, that public opinion would go along with the proposition of the hon. and learned member for Bath ; but that public opinion was subject to ebb and flow, and what was by anticipation public opinion to-day might not be the public opinion when that proposition came to be tried. The main object of the proposition was to increase the punishment to be awarded summarily, for what had been very properly described as brutal assaults committed on women and children. He could not admit that a man was more entitled to commit an awash upon his own wife than upon another. (Laughter.) He considered it was • greater offence, because he was rather expected to pro tect his own wife from such violence, and other wives bad their own husbands to protect them. Their object was to encourage the victim to complain on the one hand, and, on the other, to inflict a punishment sufficiently severe to prevent the commission of the offence. The wife or child who received an injury would make complaint if the punish ment was sufficiently severe to prevent a repetition of the ledfasnec hat if, besides being severe, the punishment was to 'be fig, if it were such as to leave marks for life on the piety, they would firstly deter the wife from making the eemplaint, because she would share in the disgrace beessist down on her husband and family • and secondly, these marks for life would sow the seed; of perpetual dentestie dissension between the parties. (Hear, bear.) Tbi wife would be pointed out as the peon who got her hatband flogged. (Rear, hear.) So that it would tend ad nfto the object which they had in view. This applied tot a Ks lie flogging. But then it was said that what was asked for was private Bogging, and not public. This was contrary to the object fur which all punishment was in flicted ; for punishment was inflicted, not for the purpose of taking revenge on the offender, hut that by the example of his punishment others might be deterred from the commis sion of crime. (Hear, hear.) They did not inflict punish ment in wornUen to the criminality of the perm who isonemined the offence. If they did, they ought to go back to the example of former ages, and inflict torture on the individual in proportion to the magnitude of hie offence. Hat they abandoned that vaunt, and adopted the principle of poniAlng for the sake of example. In the me a the offender who threw his iron shoes at the magi melte, he was immediately tent to be whipped. AU those In court knew it, and that was a public example. A light flogging would produce no adequate advantage, and a se vere one would in Sept I. peeing, fasting resentment be tween the offender and his wife. (Hear.) He thought the bill of his hon. friend would answer the object in view; and that it would bettor to wait and see its onsets before having recourse to serpent punishment. In this matter he would rather fall short of public feeling. Let an experi ment be made with the provolone of this bill, and if they ware found to be insallelent, parliament could be asked to give further powers. (Hear.) Mr. PRIER said that if they were to legislate on the principle of • flux and reflux in public opinion it would put en end to all improvement in the law. (Hear, hear.) They had already passed in the last few years six or seven acts which imposed the punishment of whipping. He was op posed ton lengthened imprieonment,because in thatease the wesght of the punishment fell on the wife, who would in many cases have to go to the workhouse. (Hear, hear.) bir. WALPOLE said that common sense in his opinion dictated that they should rather attempt to put an end to these brutal offences by means of the Dill on the table than by the proposition of the hon. and learned gentleman. If that proposition were carried they would run the risk of outraging public opinion, and brutalising, instead of human isiag, the individuals who were subjected to it. (Hear, hear.) He asked with what feelings the husband would re turn back to the wife by whom he was subjected to the punishment of whipping. (Henr, hear.) Sir .1. SHELLEY thought that they ought to try all other means before they had recourse to corporal punish ment. (Cheers.) Mr. HENLEY thought these could be nothing more ob jectionable than that part of the hon. and 1 d gentle man's proposition which required an application to be made to the Secretary of State within eight days before the whipping could be inflicted. (Hear, hear.) Nothing could be more calculated to lead to future misery between the husband and wife than the infliction of Corporal punish ment. (Hear, hear.) Mr. DEE DS said that he would vote against the clause, if it involved the power of appeal to the Secretary of State. Sir J. PAKINOTON was inclined to vote for the in diction of this corporal punishmeat, because he looked upon it as the most efficient means of preventing these brutal offences. But before he would vote for the clause he should like to know whether the hon. and learned gen tleman would press the appeal part of the clause. Mr. I'HINN said that if the present amendment were carried he would abandon that part of it which related to the appeal. Mr. HUME deprecated the infliction of corporal punish ment, which it had been the object of all their recent legis lation to erase from the statute book. The house divided, when them appeared : For Mr. Phials's clause 5O Against it '411? fiErdr:kii4i. Majority s 5B On the motion of Mr. FAME, words were added to the claase requiring the offender to give bail at the aspiration of kis sintenee to keep the peace for sir months. Mr. FITZROY proposed words taking away the right of appeal to the Quarter Sessions, after conviction before the magistrates. Mr. BARROW said he could see no reason why they TO COURIiSPON,KkiTS:_ t -moat Maim rf "The hxpreoa" ouotatouhe the name event' CI ltazette," is puhtishere every Tuntalay uta Ertday eight, m Limn foe poet. A.1,[1 uselprrb utieroled for " The Elpree.," toe ten homing paper, Enuet be et the (Mice, Irt„ Louvirie-arcer, by Two o'cloch on th• fay of pub:Warm. 11.1011 W ATLI: AT LON:JON BRI E. Taus DAT lg. lb. 40 n Afternoon. In. Ha. foaßtaitow—Murnuig. 24. Om .Afternoon. 2a. Situ. LONDON, THURSDAY, APRIL 7. WE must again express the disappointment that is felt by large numbers of people at the absence from the Ministerial Educational Scheme of the pro visions that are the most wanted, and that pi obably might have been most easily carried. Grievously insufficient as our means of education are for all the lower classes of our people, the most deplorable want is of all hope and help for the very large classes of vagrant and neglected children, who have nobody to send them to school, and save them from crime and ruin : and these are piceisely the classes of which no notice is taken in the proposed measure. The children of paupers, receiving out-door relief, are entitled to their twopence per week from the rate; but the young vagrants and thieves have nothing to do with the workhouse, and are not in a state of desti tution. Some of them in large towns obtain [tad spend considerable incomes. If we had a real national education—if we had anything of a system, however I purely local in its administration—these unfortunate beings would be comprehended within it, retrieved or saved from their deadly peril ;—aud society would be spared much of the perplexity attending the trans portation question, and much of the misery of first suffering under—and then punishing—crime. The Ragged Schools, intended for these children, soon lose hold of them, and are filled from a somewhat higher class. When this was discovered, and the hope that had established them baffled, the next hope was from the Government —that in the first measure that it should put forth provision would be made first for the multitude that was in the most starving condi tion. It would be thought rather strange if, in establishing a Poor Law, provision should be made for adding to the income of the poorer part of the labouring classes , actually in the receipt of wages, while no notice was taken of the destitute; and in such s ease nobody would wonder much at any plague of sturdy beggars and street pilferers that might arise. But this is what we have always done in the matter of popular education, and are now going to do again. All existing schooling originates, of course, with some power that can originate it: and all Government aid has gone to confirm and extend the existing power ; and an excellent work this is, and worthy of all recognition as fur as it goes, and especially for the improvement wrought in the quality of education. But still this is helping those who can, more or less, help themselves ; and it is only a portion of the duty of the State that is thus fulfilled. If it be done ever so well—ever so wisely and kindly—it leaves undone what is more urgent, and certainly not more difficult. Not more difficult, we repeat. Everybody knows what the great difficulty has been, is, and will be for some time to come, in the way of general education : difficulty from sectarian zeal and exclusiveness. In no case is this difficulty likely at present to be so small as in that of the reclamation of juvenile vaga bonds. The urgency of their case is so extreme, that it is not conceivable that orthodoxy, and heterodoxy, and secularism should stand higgling and disputing over the slough where the poor victims are slaking before their eyes. Any one of the disputants would thank any other who would catch by the hair the sufferer next him, and haul him out, without stopping to talk. We must believe that in this case theological strife would be suspended; which is more than we could say for any other. For our own part, rigidly and strenuously as we ever have contended, and ever will contend, for liberty of conscience on behalf of =and children in all these school creations, we that we would thankfully deposit any young good of our acquaintance in any school that seed catch his fancy, Mahometan or Latter Day Saint, Romanist or Secular, Traetarian or Anything- Odin. The need is first to humanise him ; and af tiltwards we may see about sectarising him. In no direction, we are persuaded, could Government loot so freely, and be so widely supported es fo educational measures for this class. And this freedom would arise mainly from schools for this class being industrial. The more books come into question, the greater is the theolo gical difficulty. 'lhe more industrial training comes into question the fainter grow "strifes of words," and the more do the broad, sound, genial truths of humanity, and personal and social morality, come into view and into use. A wide measure of industrial schooling, formatory and reformatory, would have done more to obtain the great ends of national edu cation—more to strengthen both Church and State — than all that has vet been done, since before 1846 to this day. Yet this is exactly what the present mea sure leaves unattempted, and even unnoticed. The resource is to cousider the present measure no scheme, properly so called, but to persist in asking for a true scheme or system, while accepting the desultory reforms and partial extensions of the pre sent measure. The rural part of it is the feeblest, while it is in the rural districts that added strength is most required. The Dissenters are not there—or not in vigour—to stimulate the zeal of the Church; while the nodding ivy on the old church tower seems to send everybody to sleep ; and nothing is wide awake except the jealousy of the squire, who holds the long purse. The school is a national school if &Dissenter wishes to have its doors thrown open to all children within reach: and, if any ono desires its improvement, and hints about Government inspection, it instantly becomes the squire's own school, in which he does not choose to have any im provement. We shat: see whether the proposed stimulus to local effort in the rural districts does stimulate in rural districts os in towns. If it does, the awakened zeal will be taken as an evidence that the country population would have borne a rate. The grand opening proposition—the reclamation of our public charity funds—ia a real and important reform—supposing it to be well worked. It is grand recovery of neglected means. But it is not an end. It is an auxiliary method of high value. More important in principle is the proposal of a borough rate. This is the fine feature of the measure—thu opening of the blond ,venue to the system I\ hich is yet to be fut ure. It is n cry than auxiliary. It a firm long stride towards the great aim of a National Education ; and certainly, in principle, the .f :tre at est ever yet proposed by a Government. It was a I r --- t . a sY be eduel : t hat spite sd 1 he 1 than -bill at rut tent stiu % pa uty .st ptiO • 'list, l tiLtl swig • In 1 lost uhi