The Express. — London, England, 1848-07-08 00:00:00

THE E" PRESS, SATURDAY cING, JULY 8, 1848. ALPE RLIAMEN Mr. BAOBBAWE withdrew the motion of which he had given notice. Mr. BAILLIE postponed his amendment until the dudes on foreign sugars came uncl, r Mr. H. BARELY proposed, as an amendment on the government reeulutiona the following scale of dation! : Mlng. l iVrom aed after July S. late, to July 5, 1.351, inaluslye. 1 HOUSE OF LORDS.—FRIDAT, JULY 7. The LORD Ciaancati.ore took his seat at 5 o'clock. PRIVATE FICSINEris. SECOND READINGS.—Eari of Sheffield's Estate; Caledonian Railie.y (branch *cross the Clyde and Disallow station) ; Londonderry Immusensent; 'Minn READLNGS.—SoottIsh Midland Junction Railway (=send. meat and branches to Biruam) ; North dtaffsirdabiro Railway (Ash. bourne Ir seen); Usnduedermi and Enni.lallen Railway (uhaquleh. meat of line betimes Omagh and Enniskillen); Glaegow, Pabh.y, end Greenock Railway (amendment and bunches); Bins. P'IIILIC SECOND READlNG.—lianknipt Law Consolidation Oil. COMM' ITEILS.—SaIc of Beer Regulation; POW Removal Bill. TLIDD RFAlllN(L—lmprisorirnent for Debt (Ire Lind) MIL BANK BUP LAW CONSOLIDATION BILL. Lord LIWI.:01IAM moved the second reading of this bill. There were now 12 lets regulating the ban okru the . sca• rily of the law on this subject. Before 1821 there were 21 acts relatiug to the law of bankruptcy, and since that time 21 other acts bad been palmed, making altogether act.. lie chimed no credit for the compilation at the pre of• mentirely due to &moat excellent oftier the Court of Bankruptcy. Mr. Miller wee the gentleman he reterred to, and he had digested the whole law, and brought it within the scope of 342 sections. The best test of the operation of the measure which he hail sonic years since proposed, was, that the work which used to he done by 70 commissioners woe now performed by six; and four com missioners it ould soon be found sufficient. The number ot appeals had also been greatly diminislied,so that the average number of ap,.cals within the last six years from London and the country was ouly fi.urteen and a half. Last yea r there were 1,700 bankruptcies, and in the y ear before 1,600 ; and yet there were not more than 11 apponls in each year. The LORD CHANCELLOR said it was to le deplored that a matter so important ies the law of bankruptcy should be distributed ever so many acts of parliament; and it was therefore most desirable that they should be conao:idatid. also thought it ought to be seriously censidereil, whether bankruptcy oil inso.vency should be administered by sepa rate jurisdictions. The Lill was thee reed &second time. PUBLIC HEALTH BILL. Earl EITZIiAItIANGE and Lord STANLEY, on pre santiog the petitions from water-works wimpanies, urged the neceinity ot the bill being reterred to a select committee. Lord BROUGHAM hoped, if the bill was referred to a select committee, thtt the committee would sit from don to day, with the view ot passing the bill this session. One Area: evil of the bill was, that one tenth of the population of a place must present a memorial in Savour of the application of tire bill to then town. This would render • the bid nugatory, as in the case of Liverpool, for in stance, it would requiri: that such memorial should be signed by 4,01t0 in earns. Lard CAMPBELL woe surprised at the suggestion that the bill should be rest trod to a select committee, and moved that the house shooed go into committee on the bill. Lord REDESDALIi thought it was utterly impossible to consid:ir this bill finely in 'committee of the whole house L. 4.1. BROUGHAM said they all agreed to the principle of the bill, and it was virtually over. There bait been no objecti in to the seccnd reading or to the report, and there was but one stage lett ; he hoped, therefore, that hie noble and learned friend w..m.d not object to its being carefully considered in commiree Duke of RIC lINIOND would answer for it that the bill would not be more than five or six days before a select committee. Lord K . iNNA.IItD did not object to the hill being refined to a select committee, after the assurance which had been given by the noble lord opp_osi te. The Duke or it CCCLEUCII was sure that the bill could be better dicusevil in a select committee. The Bishop of LONDON recommended her majesty's government to untie to the propcsal of sending the bill to a select committee, with the understanding that no unseen- easy delay would take place. Lord PORTMAN said it was impossible that any measure could be so well considered in the house as in a select com mittee. As he was most desirous the bill should pass in as perfect a state as possible, he advised the government to concede this point. The Marerits of LANSDOWNE bad come down quite prepared to support this bi'l against any opposition it might meet with, on the ground of its extreme importance at all times and its special importance at present when the c4cum. static a of the time were circumstances of peculiar urgency. He felt strongly also that the government had not been b irly used respec lag this measure. A week bad been thrown away without any notice being given that there was any int.ntion to take the course now adopted by the other eide. But he was bland to accept the declarations which had been made, that the desire of the house was to render this measure as perfect as poerible ' and on that ground he concurred in advising his noble and learned friend to permit the bill to be referred, solely with the view that the clauses might be carefully examined and reported on. Lord STANLEY wished to declare that there had been no intention to surprise the house or take any un,iir course with regard to this measure. The real fact was, that certain peers, w.. 0 took an inter , st in the subject, hal assembled yesterday, and come to the conclusion that the bill ought to ' be referred, and the moment that resolution was passed, a communication to that effect was made to the noble and learned lord. Lord CAMPBELL said he withdrew his motion, and he did so readily, cordially, after the declarations whic'i had been made or a desire to render the bill perfect, and to faci- Lute its progress. The motion was then withdrawn. The Duke or BUCCLEUCIi wished to recommend that this measure shout: be applied to Scotland, or that a similar ruessureapplicable to that country should speedily be in. undated. " VISCOUNT ARBUTHNOT'S CASE. The Uglier of the Black Rod appeared at toe bar and re ported that Mania made e very inquiry h r Lord Arbuthnot, ordered to be arrested unt.Lr the warrant of the house, he bad to state that the noble lord could not be found, and that there was every reason to believe that he hul lett the country. Thu LORD CHANCELLOR moved that the Usher's re port be referred (as we understood) to the committee on the proceedings in the case, which was agreed to. The house adjourned at 7 o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—FRIDAY, JULY 7. he SPLLYa took the chair at 4 o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. REPORT CONSIDERED.—North Wales Railway (Diseantion of Company) BBL PUBLIC BUSINESS. SECOND READUell—Truatees hailer (Ireland) 8111. Real/BT.—County Coo (Ireland) BilL LEAVE OF ABSENCE. On the motion of Sir C. Brunem., leave of absence for two months was given to Mr. Prime, on account of the death of a near relivion. NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT. In reply to Mr. OSBORNE, Mr. GItEENE stated that the committee for superintend. eng the building of the new houses had authorised the pull toy down, at the close of the present SCatioll, of the te.ropo rary committee rooms in the cloisters, and also certain miner alterations in the plan with reference to the vaults fronting the river, in order to provide additional accommodation for the journal cftl:e. The temporary buildings constructed in the portion of the old budding called the Star Chamber would also he removed at the close of the session, in order to facilitate the progress of the workmen in that direction. METROPOLITAN POLICE. Sir B. HALL asked the Secretary of State far the Home Department to state the reasons why the bill for limiting the amount to be raised out of the rates for support of tit+ metro politan police was withdrawn;and whether it was intended to act up to the understanding conveyed by Mr. Plaillipps, and by the police CoMMibsiOntTP, in letters dated December and January dist, that the ratepayers shall net be called upon to pay more than they hove hitherto done for the support of the pause ? In reference to the account which had appeared in the newspaper of an interview between a deputation and the right hon. baronet on this subject, he begged to state that at that interview the right boa. baronet had refixed towards the deputation and towards himself the utmost courtesy and attenti , .n. (Hear, hear.) Sir R. INGLIS said he wished to put two other questions on this subject to the sight hon. baronet. The right hon. baronet woe about to psetace his question with a statement, when he was called to order by several hon. gentlemen. Sir R. Inglis saserted his right to take the course he was entering upon. If interrupted without cause be should move the adjournment of the house. The SPE.sKER intimated that the hon. baronet could n-t make any statement unless he intended to conclude it with a motion. Sir G. GREY then, in answer to the hon. member for Marylebone, recited , he act 10 Geo. IV., c. 44, and the suc ceeditg statute. of Win. IV., and of Victoria, un.ler which the present police rate was levied in the metropolitan district+. The former rate of Bd. in the pound had been reduced by the liver statutes to 6d , the total amount of this 6d. rate having been, in 1847, 219,0001., in addition to which a sum of 96,8691. in all, was added by the Treasury to detray the charge of the mounted police, and other items. In the course of 1847 there bad been a new valuation of the rateable property in Middlesex, the iecreased assessment falling up oi the richer districts, while the poorer districts such as ltetbnalgreen, Spaalfields, &c., remained excluded from the increase. Complaints having been made by many districts of their burdens tu this respect the government had expressed their readiness to accede to any arrangement for a remedy which should nut increase the general burdens of the metropolitan districts; and a bill was subsequently intro duced autinarising the imposition, in cues where the local authorities sh•osid deem it requisite, of a smaller rate than ed in the pe e g e l. Upon the introduction of this measure a tired ., bed hoe ,: seat to the various districts iujorming them of the eiee ,._ and expressive of a hope, on the *het this proceedind would meet the part of the government, complaint that had been .'"•••• The measure, however, i t was a aaa announced, WB3 based upon the principle that it was tooccasien no extra charge upon the public. Since that time, circumstances, too well known for him further to eft r to them, had oceurree:, which had occasioned a material addition to the arduosta duties zsi the metropolitan police, and he had received a statement front the commis sioners exhibiting in detail the increased l a bours that had fallen upon the tore. There had been proposens made by several districts to relieve the special cowtabke who had hitherto exhibited such highly commendable zeal, fri,M the liability of being strain called out in the Fame way so upon recent occasione, by creating a special police force for e:ch district, available on occasions such as those in question, and paid by a voluntary and temporary rate upon the locality ; but this did not suit the views of the government, Who Considered that a police force to be thorough, and permanently efficient mast be under the dUGPLuo ' d contro l of the police coousisioners. Tug= fad part corn It w that Sin( furt am poli falls ROM SETI bitl Tut dial t a n; oot pei came the gaudiest whether this additional force should be paid cut of the local rates, or by an increased charge upon the treasury, and it was felt that the sum already advanced by the Treasury was ail that could be Justly demanded from the public purse for this purpose. It bra therefore been resolved to withdraw the bill, limiting din owe the amount of the police rate, that rate being, let it be borne in mind, already reduced from ftd. in the nound to Od., and he could not believe but that this determination on the part of the government had been soundly adopted to the changed circumstances of the case. He would only add, en this point, the expression of his opinion that were the sur rounding counties to carry into effect that readjustment of the assessment which had been adopted in Middlesex, all subject of complaint on this head would be removed. (Hear, hear.) One word in reference to the deputation which had waited upon him, and of which the hon. baronet had spoken. lie must centers that when he read in the public papers what purported to be a statement of that which took deputation, on that occasion between himself and the depuion, he was filled with astonishment. (Hear.) The hon. baronet and other members of the house, who were present on the occasion, would confirm his entire repu diation of that statement, as conveying anything like what actually occurred. (lieu, hear.) He had always been ready, nay, anxious, to receive deputations upon all matters of public import. (lieu, hear.) And he should deeply regret the circumstance, were a continuance of this practice of giving such wholly partial and inaccurate statements of what took place en such occasions to place obstacles in the way of tree personal intercourse between himself and similar deputations. ( Hear, hear.) Mr. HUME asked whether the right hon. baronet would object to s committee to inquire into the statements trans matted by the police commissioners, and into the occasion of the unlimited increase in the police expenditure ? Sir 0. GREY said he would, if desired, at once lay the statement of the commissioners before the house. Sir R. 11. INGLIS begged to sek the right hon. baronet Sir G. Grey) whether it was true that 4,000 men had been added to the police force since the 10th of April; whe• titer an unsual number of resignations had taken place in that body ; and thirdly, whether the electric telegraph had then placed at the diem sition of the government, in or& r t afford the government facilities far moving the police into disturbed districts ? Sir G. GREY said that the police force had been increased by 600 men et late ; that the report respecting a greater proportion of resignations in that force of late was unfoulided ; andaliat facilities had been offend by the Electric T,legro ph Company to the pollee commissioners, but that the offer was yet under consideration. JUVENILE OFFENDERS. Mr. M. MILN ES moved that the petition of certain no blemen, justices of the peace, merchants, and otheis in Lon don, for the estsbli,hment of reformatory . sedum' tor juverii;e offender, (presented fit July), be putted with the votes. Mr. THORNELY said that a petition ilentical with that presented by the hon. member hat been presented in the 67th report of the committee on petition'. The motion was COUNTY COURTS. Sir J. DUCKWORTH begged to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether or not the govern ment have decided on the payment of °Claus of county courts by salaries instead of fees ; and if no, at what time that areingement is intended to be c irried out t Sir G. GREY said that an order in council on the subject was in preparation, which, erc r being aubmit'td to the judges, would effect a commutation of the yayment of fees by salaries. Dr. DOWRING asked if the projected consolidation of fees w.di being carried out ? Sir 0. GREY sin that it had not yet been decided whether to carry that plan into execution. Sir J. GRAHAM called the attention of the tight hon. b.lronet to the fact that the clerks of several of the county coulee did not live w ithin seventy miles of their courts, and, therefore, that their duties were performed by deputies. The salaries of these clerks were very large, exceeding 3001. Sir G. GREY said that the clerks of the county courts always attended the judges on their circuits round their eistr.cts, but that they did not reside at their court, for they had several courts in different districts under their charge, and the dote s of atte riding to summonses were performed by their deputies in those places. It was the intention of the government, by the order in council already referred to, to commute the fees and to pay the clerks by salaries not exceeding 6001. INCUMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND) BILL. Sir G. GREY said that he should tie Friday next, at twelve o'clock, to proceed with this bdl, in order to dispose of the amendment of the hon. member for Limerick, and afterwards to proceed with the measure is committee. SUGAR DUTIES. Mr. BOUVERIE asked the Chancellor of the Eaebe• quer if he was prepared to allow the foreign sumo in traneitu, ordered on the faith of the reduced duties coming into operation on the bth July, to be entered at that lower duty ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he was not prepared to allow such sows to he admitted at the hwer rate of duty if the resolutions were reported before they at rived. Mr. 130UYERIE said he would raise the question during he discussion on the resolutions. Sir O. GREY, in answer to ft question, said that the go vernment had introduced the Incumbered Estates (Ireland) Bill on its own proper responsibility, and not on that of the Lord Chant, Dor of Ireland. FORBIDDEN MARRIAGES. Mr. S. WORTLEY gave notice that, now the report of the Marriage Laws Commissioners bad been prevented, he should on an early day move that the law forbidding mar. Flaps within certain degrees of connexion should be re pealed. DERBY WRIT (BOROUGH). . , . Mr. A. STAFFORD begged to move that Mr. Speaker do issue hit warrant to the Clerk of the Crown to make out • mew writ for the election of two burgesses to serve in this present parliament for the borough of Derby, in the room of the Right lion. E. Strutt and the Hon. k. L. Gower, whose election has been determined to be void. Sir J. HAN ME it said he hod every reason to be thankful to the noble lord for having taken charge of the bill which he had introduced. Mr. FREWEN objected to the Witte of the writ until the inquiry had been cone into respecting the bribery at the last Derby election. Mr. HUME hoped the house would not agree to issue the writ. Mr. ANSTEY contended that it was unfair to punish the whole constituency for the crimes of a few electors. Mr. Ald. SIDNEY saw no reason why the innocent should be punished with the guilty. Mr. F. O'CONNOR said he had been credibly informed that 2,0001., in gold, had been taken horn the noble lord's (J. Russell's) committee-room, and paid as bribes ; and if the noble lord desired he would give him the names of two parties who could be cited for the truth of this assertion, hav ing acted in the matter. Mr. HARRIS recommended that the writ should be per mitted to issue. Lord J. RUSSELL thought "it right the writ should issue ; but yet, in the face of five &endues of the house, it was contrary to precedent to do so, without first fixing a day on which the question might be fully and fairly discussed. He begged to say that he should move as an amendment that the writ do not issue until the 15th day of August. hlr. STAFFORD was about to consent to this amend ment when Mr. HENLEY expressed doubts whether it was a fair course to take. Lord J. RUSSELL then gave notice that he should, on Monday, move that the writ fur Derby be not issued until the 15th August. The motion was then. SUGA by R leaveDU, TIE S withdrawn. The order of the day for the house to go into committee on these resolutions was then read. Mr. HUMS presented a petition from the planters of Jamaica and others, praying that Welt India sugars be per mitted to enter the United Kingdom duty tree. The Marquis of GRANNY presented - a petition from Li verpool, praying for an inquiry into the glom neglect of the Colonial-office, as recently exposed, in respect to the West India committee. Mr. BRIGHT asked if the noble lied (J. Russell) had any objection to lay on the table of the house the memorial he had received from the Manchester Chamber of Commutes, approving of his declaration of May 30, with respect to the sugar duties ? Lord J. RUSSELL said he did not know whether be could lay his hands on the memorial in question. Mr. ANSTEY asked the noble lord whether it was the intention of the government to permit the West Indian planters to import foreign sugars into those islands, in order to make rum and molasses for export to England ; also, whether they would be permitted to import relined sugars at the proposed rate of duties on muscovado? Lord J. RUSSELL could give no answer at present to the questions of the hon. and learned member. In answer to a question from Mr. CARDWELL, Lord J. RUSSELL said ho was not certain that the house would not be obliged to sit to-morrow this day). On the motion that the house resolve itself into a commit tee on the sugar duties, Sir IL WILLOUGHBY rose, pursuant to notice, to call the attention of the house to a despatch of Lord Hama, dated Feb. 21, IFI4O. His reason for doing so was that Lord Harris's authority had been quoted as fixing the cost of pro duction in the British West Indies at 108.4 d. the cwt. Now he contended that Los d Harris held no such opinion. Hislord•hip had appointed a competent persoo, a Dr. M itchell, to ascertain the exact cost, and that gentleman's report gave an average cost of 16s. Bd. the cat. At such a cost it was quite evident that, without some protection, they could not contend with foreign slaveorrown sugar in the home market. Another f. et ascertained by Dr. Mitchell was, that sugar the produce of the British West Indies wee inferior in quality to the slave grown article: eo much so that one cwt. of Cuba sugar was equal to one ands half cwt. the producers ( our colonies. The host. meOher for Westbury had contended that the cost of pro duction in Cuba was lhs. 10d. the ewt., while in Jamaica it wa , on l y ilk, 4d. if that were true, Jamaica would require no protection ; but the fact was that a greater blunder had n mut t been made than the statement of the hon. member. He (Sir H. Willoughby) could produce 15 witnesses to prove that the cost of preduction in Cuba as compared with the British West Indies was On the avenge as eight to twelve. [The hon. baronet here read a list of witnesses who had visited the various islands, and ascertained the cost of pro duction in each, the average cost on the whole being as eight to twelve.] The result of all the information he had received was that the relative cost of production, when stated in figures, was in Cuba as 8,9, 10 to 16,18, 22, 24 in the British colonies. He had not risen to make any motion, but merely to call the attention of the house to these facts. The house then went into committee, and the chairman put the question, " That the duty on British mssouvado ett;ar be - 131. per cwt. from the Sth July, 1848, to the 6th July, 180." gift% marl Byarmds • 1 , 0111016 Dout?le Single reliwd Hrowaclttyed,oreqoaltbo 'Prom July 3, 1848, to 1 ~ly 1.04. el 1 9 I 4 1 I 7 • IS II • • lt Muscovido July 3,1334. Ramo rake as Britil/ Plantation. His object was to continue the duties at nearly th , it present rate for a period of six seam, and thus arrest the progress of the bill of 1846 for that term. The only change he proposed to make in the present arrangement was in the standard sample by means of which tho duty was levied. Instead of white c'ayed and brown cloyed, he proposed to have only one class for all elayed sugars, and this would give the Iltitieh producer an average protection of fie. per cwt. for six yearn. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. said that, emit was the duty on muscovado sugar which was under the consideration of the committee, the first dividon tin-•t lie taken on the qucetion whether that duty should he 13.. or 14s. as promised in the scheme of the hon. member. The bon. member propo.ed, in the first place, to raise the duty en foreign brown el eyed sugar to 11. in. 7e1., instead of leaving it at 20a., as proposed by the government. He proposed to ennintasu that duty for six years, and to maintain British muscovado at 14s. for the same period, instead of adowitig it to fall gradually. But be did not confine hen foreign duty to brown cloyed, for he added in his schedule "or equa. thereto." The hon. member contended th it the process of claedfication wou:o be rerdered more simple, but he (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer) contended the'. nothing could be plainer than the mode adopted at present. The elf ct of the first part ef the hon. tuenthei's resolution would lie to raise the price of sugar Is. 7d. per cwt. to the consumer, and would give less protec tion to the producer than the government proposition. Next the hon. member proposed that his duties 'Mould continue for my. •std then ilr , p alt at once. Barely the effect on trade would be greater by such a promising than if the committee adopted the plan of government. The third objee • tion was, that the duty on colonial sugars would be 14s. instead of lac as proposed by government; and this, while from every island complaints were coining that the high duty was one of the greatest evils of which the colonists cm plaMed. (The right hon. gentleman here read an extract from a Jamaica memorial in proof of his assertion.) They (the government) propmeil to give to the consumer security for permanent cludtication and gradual reduction he price, while, as they conceived, the colonists would have greater virtual protection. This would involve a loss to the revenue of 240,0001. in the first instance, coil the question was whether it would be ultimately mile up by increased con sumption. The beneficial i.ctien of the low prim on the revenue would not be confined to the year in which t e reduction took place, but would be permanent, ina.much as the habit of consuming sugar would be promoted by the power of the people to consume. Taking the . average consumption now at 35111. per bead, and giving cred it for re reasonahle increase consequent upon i repro red trade and add iti. nal e niploymentof which there was every prospect, he saw no reason why the total ooneumption should not amount to 305,000 or 310,000 tone in the next year ; and should that the case, and if the chief increase should be in colonial sugar, the hos to the revenue would be much lees than had been calculated. Perhaps there would be no loss at all. At all events, at the end of the six years, he had every reason to believe the increased consumption would fully make up for the total reduction proposed. But an int rease of duty, while it would iollict an injury on the consumer, would in the end OIC•111011 a lOU to the producer. He did not think that a 14s. duty would give to the colonial grower espial advantages' to those which he would dr rivet from the government plan; and belicylne that that plan would, without ultimate risk to the revenue, benefit both dm 0011611021 r and the pro ducer, he Inuit oppose the proposition of the hon. gentleman. Mr. OLAD:4TONE observed that the proposition before the house was whether this duty on colemiel muscovado sugar should be 13s. or 145.? and so far as that was concerned many might give their vete s —as lie should do—in favour of it, without feeling bound to support the ulterior stages of the resolution in recant to the differential duty. He had already stated that it appeared to him more was due to our West India colonies Wei could conveniently be given to them—in the form of a protective duty. (lime, hear.) lie had referred to s_veral modes by which, as by giving them more central over their receipts and expenditure, the expenses; of their government might be dimini-bed. (Hear, hear) If justice could be done to the West Indies in such form, he should prefer it to any increase in the rate of differ. antial duty now existiuz , siz , Ge . ; and he should in that L ease have preferr, tl the rate of duty to be fixed permanently. But as the government hal said nothing to show that they were contemplating the extension of relief to the West In dies is any of these forms he should hold himself free to Wahine with his hon. friend iu the ulterior stages of his propo.ition, and vote for a differential duty higher than he should otherwise prefer—not that he thought that the best mode of proceeding, hut because if was the only one by which it appeared relief could be riven. But the immediate question was as to tLe proposition of the 14s. duty. lie must say that the Weet holies had a claim on the govern ment on account not only of considerations of general policy, but of the extraordinary circ'amstancei connec:ed with the admission of the large quantity of foreign sugar released from bond yesterday at toe low duty, and of still further quantities entitled to be released, besides the cargoes amount ing, as he wall informed, to 20,000 or 30.000 tons which were either now on their way to this country or had been ordered, anti on which the Chancellor of the Exchequer would find it difficult to exact the 20e. duty after the sugar in bond was admitted at the reduced rate. 10,000 or 12,000 tons of that sugar, in respect to which the West Indies were promised a protection of 20,., were admitted yesterday at lee. hid., and much more might have to be admitted on the same terms. If se, it was obvious the boon of the addi tional protection of la. 6 , 1. a ton would have been effectually destroy ed,so far as the purpose for which it was proposed—viz., that of giving immediate relief to the colonies was concerned. This was an additional reason for introducing some modifica tions in the government plan. Undoubtedly the plan of hie hon. friend would raise the price to the consumer by Is. 74., or nearly so, per cwt., and, therefore, was not so attractive at first sight as the ministerial measure. But if that measure was one—as he contended it was—which involved a risk of loss to the revenue without providing the means of restoring it, it was vain to talk of advantage to the consumer, because, in the end, the consumer would be called upon to make good whatever deficit might result. (Hear.) The house had gained something by these discussions as to what the effect of the government plan on the revenue would be. To-night the Chancellor of the Exchequer told them th .t 240,0001. was the sum which would be given to the West Indies by his plan in the next year. The lons was no longer put down at from 10,0001 to 40,0001., hut 210.0001. (Hear, hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—If not made up by increased consumption. (Hear.) Mr. CILA.DSTONE would come to that presently. But in addition to this 240,100/., the foreign sugar admitted con trary to the intention of government at the 18s. Gd. duty instead of the 20s. duty, would occasion a thither loss of 50,0001., thus making the total loss to the revenue 300,0001. in the first year as resulting from the scheme of the govern ment. (Hear, bear.) Then so far as the first year was can cerned the hon. member for Westbury had admitted that there was no reproductive power in the plan, but that the whole would be sneer 1064 to the revenue, inasmuch as there would be no such reduction in price as would be likely to occasion increased consumption. And as to the plan gene rally they had, he thought, heard much more of this ref re ductive power than it deserved, for though a reduction of some 10e. or 150, a cwt. at one time might have a con siderable effect in stimulating consumption by reducing price, they could scarcely expect that a reduction of Is. one year, 2s. in the next, 3s. in the third, or 4s. in the fourth, I would have any material influence. The Chancellor of the Exchequer talked of the experience of former reductions at duty in this respect, but all experience was against him. Taking the figures which had teen quoted by ministers themselves, they could not calculate, even under the most favourable circumstances, for an increase of more than 2,000 to 3,000 tons for every le. of reduction in price, which would be altogether insufficient to replace '240,0001. in the first year, 480,0001. in the second, 720,0001. in the third, and 960,0001. in the fourth year, the amount which would be taken from the revenue .. After the four years the repro ductive power resulting from the reduction of the differ ential duty would come into play, and then they might be entitled to expect that the loss to the revenue would be in a great degree replaced by increased consumption, but daring these four years it would come very feebly into play, and is the first year not At all. It was said that there would be an increase of consumption is the first year—his objection, how ever, was not confined to the effect on the first year; but he objected to the 'principle of appropriating beforehand the revenue of future years, and on that ground also he pre ferred the plan of his hon. friend to that of the government. (Rear.) lie knew not what ground the right hon. gentleman had for expecting an increase of 15,000 or '20,000 tons in the first year, but if there should be such as increase the right hon. gentleman hail no right to appropriate one farthing . of the revenue thus accruing as a set oil' for the loss occasioned by his plan ; for he must have taken that into account when ho made up his revenue for the year in February last. But what ground was there for supposing that :here would be say such increase 1 The first five months of the year which, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer was correct in his calculation, should show en increase of 6,000 or 7,000, showed, if anything, a (le crease as compared with the first five months of 1847. The consutnption in the first five months of 1847 was 2,473,000 cwta , while in the first five months of 1848 it had been 2,455,000 cwts. (Hear, hear.) But in the fifth month of 1848, as compared with the fifth month of 1847, there was • more decided dee:ewe; the amount in May 1847 being 55 , 4,000 cwts., while in May 1813 it was only all,ooo mete. (Hear.) The right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had argot d that because there had been en increase in consumption without any marked decrease in neje: , in 1846, they might calculate on the same result in 1348—but the right hon. gentleman must remember that 1846 was a year of great trade, and when the commercial energies of a . country were in full ac tion there was always a corresponding expenditure and in creased revenue ; but when, as at the present time, those energies were contracted, there was always a contrary effect. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had made an announce ment which was received as music in the commercial world, when he spoke of the deficiency for the present year being only half a million instead of 2,000,000. (Hear and a laugh.) But finding that that announcement had some connexion with the practice, which he considered co dangerous, of odd. CI 1 0 O 18 8 O It 0 O 5 3 ----e-------.--------- ing to 'deficit, he felt it necessary to . examine the right hon. Mtleusen's explanation. The right ho n . gentleman said tUt there would be a saving on the estimates, which, com bi n ed with the militia vote, would be equal to 685,0001. Then M spoke of an improvement in the revenue. He (Mr. Oladstme) was at • less to reconcile that with thy statement of the revenue published yesterday ; but supposing tee right hon. gentlemen to he cerreet in both respects, as to the demi nimedexpenele ure and increased revenue, it would appear that his staement in February. But with regard tothe . nezt item, ,0001. better tbanhe calculated upon when he made he ware,oo o that U the credit side of the account they were merely taking the 6t 0, from the appropriation in aid—in piecing from ere r. venue of the next year to fill up the deficiency of this. (Hear, hear.) It was • mere financial expedient, and i: would be a fallacy to put it forth to the country as • saving to that amount. This half million would be more than covered by the loss on the sugar duties and the vote far navy , new, which he supposed would be made as usual, and add 3:10,000e to the estimates. Looking the question fairly in tie, face there was a deficiency of 1,600,0001. on the year's reeerue. And it eras not as though this was the first deficiency. Then was a fatal tendency in one deficiency to create another; and I the home refugee to make up the de ficiency in one year. it was always more reluctant to make it up in the next. Lastyear they had to raise a loan in time of peace. The eo verment had appealed in justification to extraordinary eel cumeances, and they promised in the next rear to equalise the expenditure and income so as to make provision for the repel absorption and payment of the loan. Of this, how ever, they had heard nothing this year, while there wee se ethes and a large deficiency in the accounts. And when it was noel:wed to meet that deficiency by an increased income tax the holm objected, not because it del not desire to equffise the income and expenditure of the country, but be. thdouted there a •fa considerati on came, as the ri tht hon. member for Portsmouth had said, the par t of the whether governme h nt d to been ir what was due to on the principles of public ecowimy, and because they had not confidence in the estimates brought forward. 'film he believed was the reason why the proposal of mini sten had be en dceli. cd. Az the circumstances of the last yeas were extraordinary there was the more reason why they shosld look with diligence and jealousy on the state of affairs nom If having arrived aan ordinary year they allowed a deficiency to pees, what prospect had they for the future ? (Hear, hear.) What right had they to exeect mere courage freer the government 6r the house in another section ? Sup poeng this depression in trade should continue, and who Gould say it would not. what would be the consequence ? The last five months showed no improvement as compared with the corresponding period of tee two previous years. The exports of the first five months of 1846 were 20 1:90,0001 ; of the core epondeig five monthsot 1847 they were ee,300,0001, end of the first five months of the present year they were 17,946,0001. This did net show that we war re progressing. He contended that we were beund to look our financial dif ficulties in the face and provide for them, and even if mote provision were made then necessary no evil would be dine; but if, calculeting on improvement next year, the Chancel lor of the Exchequer allowed the deficiency to remain, and it should ter-. out that the circumstances of 1849 were worm than those of 1818, he would have but too plausible an argu ment for tolerating a still further deficiency. He contended that neither the government nor the house would have die charged its duty to the country if it allowed the session to close without taking effecetal measures to equalise the in come and expenditure. (fleer, he sr.) It was for these res. sons he thought it necessary to protest &debut voting away the large sums of public muney which the plan of the Chanceliur of the Exchequer would undeubtedly draw from the revenue during the first year of its operation until they had a distinct pledge that ministers did intend to propose measures for squalling the in come and expenditure of the year. It was an excellent feature in the plan of his hon. friend that it did not tamper with the revenue at a period of deficiency, and that it did net propose to vote away money every farthing of which was already pledged to the expenditure of the country. In justice to the West ladia body some modification of the go vernment plan was necessary; and if they did not ge farther than they had done in this respect, though be objected to increase the differential duty, he should feel bound to go with his hon. friend in the ulterior stapes of his measure; but, however that might be, he thought they were asserting by this MC,111,4f, of his hon. friend • financial principle of the highest imp...fleece, both to the present and future wel fare of the coolers', and therefore he should vote with him. Ate. LABOUCIIEHE, though he did rot c implain of the time at which the right hon. gentleman had chosen to question the fiaancial policy of the government, he did complain of the manner he had assumed. When ho remembered that the right hon. gentleman was one of an administration who in troduced a measure relative to the timber duties--dealing with that article of consumption and taxation in precisely the same manner as the present government proposition did with sugar, he must say he thought the right hon. gentleman had a very short memory to attach that charge to the government measure respecting the sugar duties. But there was an other statement of the right hon. gentleman that ho had heard with still mote areonishment—narnely, that they were considering the finances of an ordinary year in the history of this country. Had it been an °rehears , year, looking to the manner in which the country hail, during that time, borne up against the pressure of the most extraordi nary difficulties, Hs conviction was, we should already hove been an the spring-tide of returning( prosperity I, of the most durable character. When he looked to the manner in whick the country had supported the deprivation j I of the European markets, so fatal to the industry of our , manufacturing districts—the exports having considerably fall, n off—and when he considered how the home con sumption or the internal trade of the country hail kept up, he thought no country ever exhibited such inexhaustible resources, or so many of the elements of commercial great less. The right hon. gentleman had adverted to returns laid on the table from the Board of Trade, of the con sumption of the country during the last month, which, com pared with the corn eponding month of last year, showed a failing off in the consumption of sugar. But there were other articles of consumption besides sugar which exhibited the powers of consumption of the country ; and which ex hibited no declension therein. For instance, there was the article of tea, the consumption of which, so far from falling off, had iucreaaed. In the month ending the sth of June, 1847, the consumption was 3,690,000165., while in the Cor responding month of the present year it was 4,109,000 lbs. The statement of the right hon. gentleman on the finances of the country he would not n o w follow in detail, as it was desira ble to bring thin debate, already of such lung contir,uance, to a close. He must say he di cidedly preferred the plan of the government to that comprised in the amendment of the hon. member for Leominster. The alteration of those duties a! fected in a conceit , raids degre e the interests of both planter and consumer, which he conceived to be identified ; for it was to the increased consumption of sugar in this country alone that the West Indian plant r could, in the long run, look as the best means of supporting his position and itnerest as a RIOT producer. He could not agreewith the right hon. gentlemen that the difference of price between 14s. and 10s. would be immaterial in its effecta upon the consumption of this country ; nor could he agree with him in his objection to the plan of producing a diminution in price, not by a sudden fall, but by a dropping scale. In making those alterations, there was only a choice between two difliculties—either you must have • dropping scale, or a male terminating in what he might call a preci pice ; and therefore he believed that the adoption of the amendment, being a measure of an abrupt kind, would be fraught with much more evil than a dropping scale. The sudden alteration of duty would, previous to its coming into operation, art as a barrier to check large quantities of sugar from coming into the market; while, after it came into orration, it would let in an influx of the article like an avalanche upon the market; which, he need not say, would' he a great evil. He repeated, then, that he believed the government measure was more advantageous than the amendment would prove to he, both to the consumer and the West Intlien planter. But the hon. member (Mr. lonely) did not proles* to put forward his amend. ment very much on the ground of advantage to the planter. There remained, however, another great interest to be cons& dered—namely, that of the revenue. He was not sanguine enough to believe that, spread over a period of years, and introduced gradually as it would be by the plan of the government, the increase of consumption would be such In to make up to the revenue any Ines which might arise from i the diff, rence of the two plane. Every one conversant with the subject must be aware how very sensitive to diminution of price was the article of auger. The noble member for King's Lynn, who had laboured with great ability and zeal upon this subj ct had collected a list of prices for a series of , ears, by which they were able to ace the operation of prices upon the consumption of sugar donor the last 25 years. From that list it could he at once seen how strongly any fall of price affected the consumption of sugar. But something even beyond that could be seen from those lists ; and that was the great tendency, iudepeudently of any diminution of price, which existed in this country to in crease the coesump•ion of sugar; for in some cases, even where there had heels no diminution of price at all, a com parison of one year with the preceding would show an in crease of col ..iii: Oen. For instance, in 1837, there was a fall of GS. 3.1 in the price, and an increase iu consumption of '22,000 ten+ in round numbers. In 1839 there was a rise of ss. Od, in the price, ar.d the quer.- tity consumed was diminished by 5,900 tens. Again, in the }ear 1840, there was a rise of 10A. 41. In the price, and a diminution in the consumption of 11,800 tons. In 1811 there was a faller Rs Bd. iu the price and an increase in the consumption of 23,000 tons. It. 184.5 there was a fall in the price of Ils. 9d., and an increase in the consumption of 38,000 tons ; while in 1846 there eras no change in the price, and yet there was an increase in the consumption of not less than 17,000 tons. He thought it was very plain that there was • great disposition in this country to increase the consumption of sugar. It was very clear, then, that the plan of the hon. gentleman, though it might nut make up to the revenue at once the exact Sores which it might lose in consequence of the alteration, yet that it would, in can sequence of the great increase of consumption, in the long Irun cause the revenue no great loss; and he considered upon all thoee grounds that the asure was founded upon a just and sound principle. me It did nut, as the right honourable gentleman had said, wildly tamper with the finances of the country; and he considered tat the view ,if his right honourable friend (the Chancellor of the Exceequer) on the financial aspect of the measure was the just and the true one. There was another paint to which he wished to advert. The right hon. gentleman had reproached them that consideraele quantities of foreign surer bad found their way into our markets, at • rate of duly which was rot intended by the government. Such mistakes as those were rather unfortunate ; and certainly it was de sirable that they should not occur in our commercial legisla tion. But, in the present case, it was not their fault if any inadvertence of that kind took place, because, when they sought to have the debate closed, in order to have the pre sent measure pasted in time, an hon. member connected with the West Indian intgreet—the hon. member for Leominster—rese and moved the adjournment of the debate, and was supported by the noble member for King' Lynn, who took a great interest in West Indian affairs, and by the right hon. gentleman the member for the Universit materxford himself very a therefore any reproach in thiscame with • very bad grace from that quarter. Mr. CAYLEY felt bound to support the proposition of I the honourable member for Leominster. They knew how committees of that Louse were packed, but in spite of the packing they saw how the committee, thanks to the energy of his noble friend the member for Lynn, bad reported. They might condemn the West Indian colonies, but they would eventually find that they wer • in error in thus lendemning that body. The rule of the poli tical economists 'armee to be the old quotation : " Get money— honestly, it you can—but, at all events, get money." He contended that wherever there was a failure there ouaht to be a reaction. The hen. member fur the West ft ding (Mr. Cobden) had stated that his constituents (at least, so he had undersmod the hon. member) preferred cheapness to hu manity. From that smtement he (Mr. Cayley) differed, and was confident that if the question '• as properly explained to them they would cast away cheapness in order to get rid of slavery. They thought that freedom was better than free trade, and that humanity, justice, equity, and the maintenance of good faith were preferable to cheapness of any commodity (Hear, hear.) Mr. CARDWELL said the right hon. gentleman, the President of the Board of Trade, before he had sat down, after addressing the house, memo , ' to have recovered from the cloud of dissatisfaction which he had manifested at the commencement of his speech, and had arrived at that equable and general state of mind which was his wont. He (Mr Cardwell) thought the cloud had originated is the pained analysis of the financial state of the country, which had been made by his right hon. friend the member for the University of Oxford (Mr. Gladstone), and the recovery had arisen from the answer the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Labouchere) had been enabled to give on two points. viz., that in relation to the amount of the delivery of sugars at the lower rate of duly, and the condition of the revenue as bearing upon the question of the sugar duties. The right hon. gentleman had stated that the oar take which had arisen was not the fault of the government, far that they had taken care to apprise the house of the con sequences which must ensue from delay. Now, what were the circumstances? On the 30th May the government had plainly told the house and the country that no change would be made in the act of 184 G, either en to the amount of the duties or in their duration ; and on the ((Mewing day the mail went out to theWeat Indies, conveying that intelligence. The mutt was attributed by the right hon. gentleman to the hon. member for Droitwieh (Sir J. Pekington); but ht it not be forgotten that the attention of the government had been called to the position in which the question would be placed on the very first night upon which the house had been invited to deceits the government proposition. And could any man, in or out of the house, believe it possible that be tween the 10th Juno and the sth July the principle of the proposition of the government—that fairly mime by the hon. member fur Droitwieu—the amendment of the hon. member for Manchester, and all the other amendments Lafleur. ced to be moved in cosumittre—c.'uld be discussed and disposed cf in that ehoreinterval ? (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Cardwell) denied that the analysis of the financial condition of the country which had been made by his right hon. friend (Mr. Gladstone) was devoid of fairness as ha l been alleged. His right hon. friend had contra- ted the present year with the year of the Irish famine and of the 8,000,0001. loan, and he spoke of this as an ordinary year as compared with those years. The rerlit hon. gentlemen (Mr. Labouchere) had himself said that the present was a year in which the country had shown great buoy ancy—that but for the events which had taken plate on the continent el Europe, this country would now have been in the spring tide of prosperity, and in an extraerdmary etste c! ::.tune. But on the 18th februery, a deficiency of 2,000,000/. had been predicted, though the events in France did not happen until the 24th of that month. The question of the timber duties bore no peraliel to the questi n now under considera tion—they were not arallel cases because his right hote l friend (Mr. Gladstone) had contended justly tent the government had n right to come down to the house, heeler uo resources, but standing upon an empty treasury chest, and take credit for • reductem in favour of the consumer, when I they knew that in ease of a deficiency in the rev nue, the consumer was the person upon whom the beeline of taxa tion to supply that deficiency must be placed. He 'therefore repeated that the descending icale proposed by his right hon. friend (Mr. Gladstone) in the dude ' in favour of Canadian timber had no parallel with the present question. In February, the government were deh min«i to maintain the law of lblo —a law which, he con. tended, was more favourable to the revenue than the change in it now proposed by her majes'y's ministers, and from which they might have calculated upon a larger amount to be derived from the sugar duties than would be the case under the proposed change, and yet with the state of the continent affecting the productive industry of the country, the government came down and took comfort in an antici pated increase of revenue from the change. For this there was no basis beyond the hopeful anticipatioca of the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who supposed that because the stocks were large, these would ae an increased consumption. But were the stocks large ? On the contrary, the returns made up to the Ist of June last showed that in •11 the principal [ports of the kingdom the stocks were pima r than they were at the same period last year. But it had seen said that his right bon. friend had not been clear in the announce ment of his remedy for the exciting state of things in relation to the West India colonies. In the select committee it had been agreed that, for the permanent benefit of the colo nies, protection was not necessary, and the bon. member for Westbury (Mr. Wilson) had proposed resolutions to the effect that the remedy ought to be applied directly to the planters themselves in some other shape than in that of pro tective duties. (Hear, hear.) Notwithstanding this, the plan of the government off"red the planter no other remedy but protection. Ilia right hon. friend had pointed to other remedies, but their application was matter of great diffi culty, owing to the complication of interets. They in volved the state of West India property, the state of the negm or coloured population, and they involved besides the whole question of immigration from the coast of Africa, as well as that of loans or grants of peblic money for the im provement of estates; and lastly, they involved the whole question of the slave trade. It was impossible for his right hon. friend to bring forward • scheme without dealing with all these various points, and being out of office it would have been rash temerity en the part of his right hon. friend to have under taken that duty. With respect to the proposition brought forward by the hon. member for Leominster (Mr. Barkly), it did not differ in its operation for the first year from the plan brought forward by her Majesty's government, but it would not affect the public revenue at a time when the reve • nue could not afford to be affected, and, further, it was not oven to the objection of a continual recurrence to a descend ing scale. Before he sat down he could not avoid referring to one piece of evidence adduced before the slave-trade com mittee now sitting,by Mr. Moore, the chairmen of the Liver pool Brazilian Association. He (Mr. Cardwell) had asked Mr. Moore this qn. stion—. Can you tell the committee whether the Brazilian merchants in this country expected so full a measure of free trade in sugar as was afforded by the act of 1840 ?" The answer was, " I should my certainly not." Do you know whether their general opinion is that the measure of 1840 extended beyond the justice of the case ? Answer : At the time the measure was brought forward I was chairman of the Lives pool Brazilian Association, and I can state we never sought for equality with the colonies ; on the contrary, we always looked for some differential duties. I frequently came to London on the subject, and we said that if Brazilian sugar was at 17a., and West India sugar at 2.55, there ought to be a differential duty of Ba." He (Mr. Card well) had pressed the examination a step further end had asked the witness, " In your opinion was there an in justice done the West India colonies ?" and the answer was, " Yes. 1 think so." Such was the evidence adduced on the pert of the merchants engaged in the cultivation and import of Brazilian sugars; and the other day, in attending with a deputation upon the government, he (Mr. Cardwell) had urged the hardships to which the counties had been exposed. Believing that the plan proposed by the hon. member for Leominster (Mr. Barkly) would afford the best means of giving effect to those sentiments, he (Mr. Cardwell) should give it his beg support. (Hear, hear.) Mr. WILSON said the question before the committee was whether it should adopt the government proposition of 13s. per cwt. on colonial sugar, or the 14s. per cwt. as moved by the hon. member opposite (Mr. Berkly) • but in dealing with that question, it was necessary to Like the whole scale of duties as proposed on the one side and the other into consideration. The plan of the hon. member would operate beneficially for the colony (Demerara) in which he was most interested, and which produced the white clsyed or higher class sugars, but would sacrifice the sugars produced in the other West India colonies, and the effect would be to raise the price for the next year of all sugars but Is per cwt. more than would be the case if the government proposition received the sanction in preference of the legislature. Taking into consideration the consumers' interest on the one hand and the state and condition of the revenue on the other, he was convinced the government plan as now proposed would effect a great saving, that revenueby the w adoption u b 24 00 f ,OO o t in themid operate most beneficially for the country at 1. lt e s n to sa th id e govern ment p uttee p a i n t li t h a a d first year, 480,000). in the second year, and 960,0001. for the Mee remaining years. But what would be the effect of the plan of the hon. member for Leominster ? Why, in the first year it would add to the consumer a cost of 435,000/. ; in the second year the additional charge to the consumer would be 90.5,0001.; and in the third year, while there would be a loss to the revenue of 720,0001., there would be an increased cost to the consumer to the extent of 1,350,0001.; and soon, until, at the end of the six years, the re would be an addition of 2,400,0001. more upon the consumer than would be the re sult of the adoption of the government plan. In what posi tion, then, at the expiration of that time, would the West India colonies be placed, when, without protection, there was no increase of consumption ? The advantage of a gradually decreasing duty was that it produced no very marked effect at any particular time, espe cially if the alterations were known betereband ; and on this ground the plan of government was infinitely preferable to that embodied in the amendment. The mode in which re lief was proposed to be given to the planters, namely, by stimulating the consumption, was the most unobjectionable that could be devised. For years before the alteration in 1845, the consumption of sugar had been almost stationary; in 1830, it was 202,000 tons; in 1813, 203,000 ; and in no one year of that period had it exceeded 206,000 tons. But after the alterations in 1845 the consumption rose at once to 244,000 tons ; in 1848, to 261,000 ,• and in 1847 (in conse quence of the further reductions of duty in the preceding year), to 290,000 loos. By the amendment proposed the duties would be kept stationary for six years, and the natural consequence would be, to came the consumption again to become stationary ; and how, then, could any increase of revenue be expected ? The government plan, on the other hand, by largely stimulating the consumption, would aug ment the NITRO SO such au extent as would probably Qom. pensate for the reduction of duty The hon. ell.mb r re; Liverpool had dwelt much on the apparent lolling off ag 3,000 tons in the consumption or sueur to May Ine, a, corn. pared with May, 1847 ; but had he toro twit that, rater t h e West India Committee had b en siting for months, la g reductions of duty were recommei dad, refiners and design would naturally allow their stocks to .io toe, and 'haematite the apparent felling-off alluded W ? Ile knew, by comma. nieations with the refiners , theme, th 4 they had scut in this way, having their eyes fixed on the angel. posed reduction of the sth inst. ; and he had no doubt the quantity entered in the present math would more than compensate for the post decline. The amount of sugar to be received from the colonies this year was isely vtimated at 230,000 tons; the imports from the Ma ..ritius end the Sue Indies might be expected to fall oft from 5,000 to 10,000 toes ; the whole supply would present!? equal 31.5,000 tome being out,. 45,000 tms I. ss than tee slimes of hut year. The hon. member for Liverpool odd teat etoces were lower this year than last ; but tau wasi 0 eine to tee fact that the shipments were unusuell) I rte ; both iit Bruit red Cubathere wire large stocks yet unshipped, Ka wh e ttoe they ems direct to this ountry or t the coutiourital pore, they would find their way here if th , y re nee z e d. ar, hear.) Thl hon. gentlemen opposite (Mr. Gioistoue seal Mr. Co well) had dwelt too strongly on the question of revenue, though the accounts of the preeeilitor day certainly showed a deficit on the year of 2,400,0001 ; but of this, no lees a sum than 2,200,0001 was in restaxt of the six menthe ending in January last as compared w,th the pe w perous half year ending in January, 147. (Hear, hear.) Comparing the last six mehtlis with the core,- spondine fill months of 1317—a mach fairer w it of jaeging of our present position—it would be eie n that eiawithsta. ing the extraordinary curtailment e Bich our commerce had suffered, and notwithstanding the ills , urbe d rendition of the continent, the deficit was only 209,611.1/. Toe tint no months of 1847 were a p nod of comparative presperity; and, it the comparison was confined to the last ewerter a n d the corresponding quarter of Itsl7, the amount of deficient, bills amounted may to 35.0001. (near.)) Toe propultion of the hon, member fur Leomineter (Mr. Barkley, while raising the price of all sugar, was alai utecti ineele on the ground of itagivieg an un.air advanrege to certain celonie; inasmuch as it only imposed a duty of 14.. on colonial mem covados tend white-clayed sugars, and would they by istiet hardship on the r liners of this. country, who pdd a date,/ 114. for the raw material which they wrought up. Mr. BA LY de claimed any niter:AM motive Mistaking the distinction allude." to ; ar.d Mr. WILtiON said he had not meant to impute any suck motive. Sa G. CLERK said he should support the amendment. The must importeut port of the pia.. of the hon. te. D o or fur Leominster was the omiesion of the do ineuve they on white clayed sugar. In 1847 only 30,000 ewt. had paid the high duty of white-clayed, of which 11 000 wee (mein and 16,000 was East ladle sugar. This nistinction then alferded no benefit to the West Indian coemies. .fhe rivet hoe. gentleinun the Chancellor of the Exehequ. I' a omitted that he would lose 210,000/. at firs,, it th. pl.n of tee government were adopted. but he expected that it ',route b, suede up to that amount by the inert ried c •nsumpi eat of 'toter. did not think that expecation was Likely to he reel Lee, bee mein the five months ending the 6th of J unelvd, the consumption of sugar had fallen off 1.000 tons as compared with the quan tity consumed is. the corresponding five month • of 1817. And this falling off had taken p.ace, nob met' the strange price fer the five months of the year 1848 wan only 21.. wnilst the average price of the five menthe of 184 7 we- :114 He slid sot think this *hewed that there was buy ti ieleeey to increase the consumptiou of the sugars. The principal differtece be tween the plan of the governraor. vet that of hie hon. friend was, that has hone friend proposed t retain the differential duty at the same amount for six peat. 11. m. gentlemen opposite said that the drooping ee ele woule afford time to the West India planters to prepare for the cormetie tion with the foreign growers. That argument surpriwd him as coming from the author* of tee Act tit The drooping scale had this disadvantage, that it produced irregularity in the trade, because ruercuants always regu lated their transactions accurdius to the gradual tall. In this respect he thought the plan of the tom. gentleman we superior to teat of the goy. raiment. But whir appeared to him to be the great advantage of the plan of the hon. gentle man was, that it would nut diminish tee rev/ nue. Ginn the right hen. gentl. man the Chancellor of the Exchequer credit for the improved state of the finances, there would be still, according to his statement, a deficiency ir 1,500,0001., and in such circumstances he slid not think it would be wise to give up 240,0001. He admitted, wee „ever the state of the revenue could afford it, that ne tax c .old be reduced with so much advantage to the great was+ of the people as the tax on sugar, but until the state of the revenue had greatly improved they should not du any thee; that wetikt still further diminish it. The right hen. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer told :hem that he would get 350,0001. beyond what be expected trot the malt duty. It should be recollected however that the superior quality of last year's malt would occasion less sugar to be used in brewing. (Hear.) Then the right bon. gentleman said that he expected to save 300,000/. on the army, navy mei ordnance estimates, without at all (drain ishing the efficiency of thoot servic e. At the bed he believed that a large proportioe of this alleged reduction would be merely a pes.ponercent of accounts until next year, but how stood the actual fact ? Why, thus : that in the put financial year" the government had expended on the naval service 400,0001. beyond the vote a hich they had obtained under this head, which 400.0001. they must conse quently set aeainst the 300.0001 , leavtne adeftC.t of 100,0001. in this Item instead of a surplus of 300,000/. Nothing meld be more mischievous than the myititie own of expenditure and income accounts which the goy. raiment was to, made in the habit of attempting. lie should ire his coeditl sap port to the amendment Mr. C. BRUCE should give his vote for the amendment of his hon. friend. Mr. BAILLIE said that a duty pat on an article of con sumption did not always impoie a fresh burden on the people who consumed the article e i treated. He felt this defficutly with respect to the amendmentof his bin. friend, that if he voted for it he could not bring forward the amendment of which he had given notice. (Diside, divide.) Mr. GODSON said that the choice which it was for the committee to make at present, wes het viten the plan of the government and the prop-al of the hon. member fer Leo. minster. In his opinion the plan et tee government was pre ferable. Mr. MOWATT, who was interrupted by loud cries of " question," " divide, 'expreved his re . ret that government had departed from the principle they had themselves laid down in 1848. (lieu, bear.) lie bed no faith in it as a measure of relief to the planter., neither did he approve el the amendment of the hon. member for Leominster. Under these circumstances he had made up hie mind to take no part in the division ore way or the other. (Laughter.) Lard G. BENTINCK =veil the adjournment of the debate. Lord J. RUSSELL said that the home had lately ap pointed a committee to consider upon the best mesas of ex pediting the public business. (" Hear," and laughter.) He could have no hope of the recommendations 01 that commit tee proving effectual, unless the house, having entered upon a discussion, made a determination to go on at once to i s eon , elusion. They were then sitting on the 7th July, in coed nnence of a debate which had begun on the 10th Jane. He relit) , could not consent tothe adjournoteet of the debate lentil the house had testified its opinion by a division. Mr. GOULBURN was understood t 6 suggest the pro priety of accediug to the wiehi a of the cable lord. 'rue commitee divided—For adjournment BO Against On our return to the gallery, Lord J. RUSSELL was consenting to the adjournment al the debate until Monday, expressing e hope that the house would then go into committee of supply. Mr. HENLEY was glad the ilebe.e was djoumed, for it was probable the noble lord who moved the adjournment would have spoken two or three hours. (Omen and laughter.) Col. SIBTHORP said if they were to take votes on es count to-night they might overdraw. Mr. S. CRAWFORD should feel it his duty to object be g s into committee of supply at that hour. Lord J. RUSSELL asked was it really intended to delay the business of the country in this way ? Mr. S. CRAWFORD said he bad a notice of motion on the paper to be brought on on going into committee of inv• ply, and he objected to proceed at that h Lord J. RUSSELL said he would sec, on Monday on *hat day he would go into a cemmitue of supply again, and then the hon. member could bring forward his mottos. Mr. STUART thought the object:on to go into supply was most unreasonable and unfair, but not near so unfair and un reasonable as the conduct of the goy, raiment in trying . to prevent the noels lord the =rah. r ter Lynn from addrainag the house. (Much groaning, and cries of " Oh.") Lord J. RUSSELL dented that he had endeavoured to prevent the noble lord from speaking. Mr. STUART essayed to op ak again ; but his nice was drowned amid groans and cries of " Oh." The Cll4tlllll.ex then put the queetion that he do report progress, and ask leave to sit again, which was agreed to; and he then left the chair. SUPPLY. The house having resumed, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that the Speaker do leave the chair, in order to go into eommittee of supply, whereupon Capt. BOLDEItO said the Chancellor of the Etcha quer had stated the other night that certain reductions might be made In the oelnance and other • adulates. He wished to have &detailed account ~f those proposed reductioes, showing their character, amount, and the reasons for the reduction. He should also like to know when the emir army aad ordnance cstimatis were to be brought forty sms and the order in which they would be submoted. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the votes of the present session had been taken on account. Until the committee on the army, navy, and ordnance ((in mates had made their report, the votes would continue to be taken in the same way. Cap`. BOLDER() said his question had not been answered, whereupon Lord J. RUSSELL said, that when the estimates were brought forward, he would state the amount of the reduc tions to be made, and, if flies e.ary, print the particulars. As to the " reasons " for these re,outous, it was more usual fur this minister to state them than for the government to put them on paper. The SPEAKER. then put the question, when Mr. KEOGH objected to going on, in consequence of having a motion on the paper. Lord J. RUSSELL said he would state on Monday when the hon. member would have an opportunity of bringing forward his motion. Mr. B. OSBORNE wished to call attention to the fact that the committee up stairs would not be able to report upon the army and ordnance carotid, a this year. Lord J. RUSSELL said he SiOttiCl consider that point. The 11911110 then went tato committee of supply, when - - . Mond..y fortn LEAS Sir W. FW convcrtin Ireland into tbe saw a bill was i,r( offi,:es of pay services with other provibt. The huuse TILM WI MAJOR] --- In the tr were only I: unge, ran 1 gas prof.. ,so unattiche Of connesio sprinkling o candidate 4 I The followi sad oonnex Lotd J. Rm Sir G. Croy Lord Pot Sir C. Woo Lord Morp labutu SIrJ.C.II W. R. L. I Bon. fro. 1 Cut. O. A. Benjamin John Park -- t — rrnoor G. H. Wai Sir John Jo Lord Ebri , Junior Sir D. 1.1. COW 1,11 .• 311% C. Bo Yr. U. C. Dlr. J. Wi Yr. If. W Bight Ih Lord A. 1 Hon. L. I ELL.crioNs Right 110 T. Brawl, Sir W. CI E. Hoo. J. V C. S. Fort Lord J. V YaWoe. Han. C. SFr T. P. Lord MN Lord Mo Lord C. Lord SW Sir T. B. Roo. C. train G. s. Du Earl of I Lord R. Lord It Mr. %Yr The an Mill be m The Hondas including Magni% Nieeregn Win: will be m ov 7471 , t, toil, will The or Egypt, A erelong I iThr trt: Zealand The m up OS M, The le bum, Ile ereamg The Stamp Tbii (Rued Morns In Morn! Wh the 6 a . n.- LO. JF ques , chall oc un J.] de be WI ton