The Express. — London, England, 1851-05-23 00:00:00

IV IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSZDF LORDS.--Tntrastny. May 22. YM Loan PE TI T IO N S PtateookßESENTED.his seat at live o'clock. Perim Aoolll4loll.—lly the Duke of ARGYLL, front umeeel Oases in Scotland ; and Earl FORTESCUE, from several pima Is Devon, against papal aggression. Curt eta Ts:treas.—By Earl FORTESCUE, from ogr ad r i l= s peaying for a measure for the compulsory Fiat of oopyholds. PROPERTY TAX BILL. This bill was read a third time and eared. EPISCOPAL CAPITULAR ESTATES BILL. The Earl of CARLISLE moved the second reading of this bill. He had found the subject a very difficult one, and from its nature it was almost sure to displease many parties whom it affected ; but it was wholly unconnected with party differences and the government had brought It forward with the sole view of removing existing Inconveniences and supplying existing wants. The management of church property had long been eery unsatisfactory, and had acted injuriously to all parties concerned—to the church because it proved of Mrs value than it might if properly managed, and to the lessees because of the uncertainty of the tenure under which they held their leases. It had also been disadvan tageous to the public at large as it had had a tendency to prevent improvement. The recent commission which had been appointed to inquire into the subject, said that the church realised only from oue-third to one-fourth of the reek rent , and that by better management the re venue might be increased, and the tenure made more satisfactory to the lessees. The commissioners objected to the present system of fines, and from the promulgation of their report it was necessarily thought that an alteration and improvement would take place, and the arrangements kr bargains in this species of property had consequently been kept hanging in suspense. The government appointed • commission in 1839 to inquire into the present system of Maim the property belonging to the church. In 1840 the sommisisionen presented two report., and the government led determined on embodying the recommendations of dem reports in the bill now beton: the house. The tenure et proptrt7 held in lease of the church, in which there had lam hut little change since the days of Elisabeth, was ge awally on leases for two lives renewable on the dropping Of ass life, or on terms of years. The rents reserved had bees ahead nominal, and the fines taken each re use:al constituted the main property of the Church. I. tern for lives it had been customary to assess the fines St • calculation of five per mut, and on leases for terms gnat, eight, or even nine per mat. The value of freehold property WAS generally taken at about thirty pars' pac ifism, ant there was ample opportunity for increasing the yam of the church prowrty, which had been calculated Wenn° at 9b, 16, and 11 years' purchase. There had lass amatory views ce this subject, and it was thought by Mow that the lenses wen ..ti tle d to a perpetual renewal ea the seine es which they hod hitherto held. There had bon ea greet a essideese he the minds of the lessees of m ama es the seen mime that the property was often made the williset d esseliage and dev i se by will. The fines nage the issemes of the emlesiastical dignities; Ihey meld am Mimi to wait, and there was no dais of maw who ought little to be expaird ea Weiwitaidaagi income ; therefore, without the aid of par ilaweat it was impurilde to increase the income of the temeh, mad at the name time take away the temputiom whMh the midseimtieal digaitic• had at present to great minewala. The immunimimen had recommended a corn. . en betwe the two parties, the lessors and lessees. M abe recommasedwd to give to the lessees • perpetual right et renewal. This was a large easeweaion ; but the income el the church was also to be inercread thereby. He would wapiaiu, as elearly as be could, die peormious of the bill, tad Itie would dud brat with leans Sur lives. ibis was al- ways thought to be the soon objectionable form—it involved • irmit•r disturbance of the auntie. ammgements, and fre garde, impend ea the haw the Remade of paying M the isaierease of it life ea his less. It was, liorefure, proposed to sower all leases for live; into le►ses fug an equivalent Pros of years. There onto special eases is which there might be an an bialthy life, or In which the ►essee might have in. ellitli the life of his wife, or where he might have Meares' • life. la are► caw it would nut be desirable to substi- bate terms Wrenn, and therefore power would be slyest to the eonssaiwissers to give ► term of years for the third life, which now wadi he added to the two misting lives. Now, ne to terms far Team—he would take the case of a farm let for POI. a year and fora term of 21 years, renewable every seven years. A tine would be paid, by the present system, for each renewal, and it had bees ascertained that such tine amounted to about a year and a halts purchase, which on such an estate would be 1401 It had been aver. twined that the septennial payment of a fine of 1.101. was equivalent to a rent of 241. a year to commence at mice; and if no fine was imposed at all fur 40 years the lessor would then be entitled to the whole income of 1001. a year. The payment of 100/. a year, beginning 40 years hruce,woiald be equal to about 1131. a year. It was proposed to divide these advantages between the lessor and lessee. The pre sent rent of the lessor being 2:1la a year, and his extreme right 641. a year, the commissioners proposed to divide the advantage ia this way—that henceforth a kideunial fine should be paid to the church, calculated at the same rate of interest iu at present, but only upon one moiety, and at the sad of the now existing term a fine should be paid equal to the other half of the item of value. As to one-half of theennual tine vele. the eltareheshould fi n the lease, and as to the other esoiety the church should renew the louse upon a fine eakelated at t►e same rate of interest es at present. instead of paying now a tine fur renewal of 160(., the lessee would have to pay 761. as a tine upon °ne tball of thu value of the property, and for the other halt he would h are to pay his reserved rent. tither arrangements were propmed, hut the object of the whole transaction WAS that the lessor, out of the whole annual value of the property would Media what wee amivalent to 441. • year ; that we. the iligheenee between die SAL which was equiva lest to his poem* sessipte and the 62L which was equiva lent to his entente rights The church would gain one-half of it. claimer elable, and the loner would come into pee smith of aneshalfief his extreme claims. It was proposed to employ the agency of the present church estate commis sioners to ascertain the precise rates of tine, or the propor tion of the fine to the value of the property, in each parti cular district. It appeared front the evidence taken before • the dal: rent commissions that there were districts, tvPe cially in the north of England, where, either from some notion of an old right or from an inva riable usage, the knees had been led to rely so confidently on the coutinuthee of the present terms of reuewal, that the revolt arrived at had been that 21 yearn' lease was of as much value as an estate iu foe ; and it would be fur those commissioners to define the dis tricts w bore, in consequence of this usage, the lease would only be suffered to run out upon a third, instead of one moiety, of the annual value of the whole. The property in house. did not stand on the some footing as in lands and farms; but it wa% intended to bring it as nearly as possible to the same remelt. It is proposed, in house property to give the right of perpetual renewal, upon the prevent tine, but to impose on the lessee at additional rent equal to half of the new right he would have acquired, thus dividing all Op advantages to accrue under this bill, in equal peeper bens between the tenor and the lessee. The property in mum was intended to follow the same courses property in hew& As to tithe-rant charges, it was proposed to let them nu set. The mennfisoloners were of opinion that this pro = stied so • dillusest footing ; it had not, fur instance, the capital of the lessee in past tire, ot wi th v ero a did mot Grist the plea of the lands being in bendsed with the ether freehold of the lessee, which often abeed with aura bads; and he (the Earl of Carlisle) man Jac say that duns was no emaciation or attachment ne semen parsers wide tithe rimesehartres. As to manorial MOM it was pimps* mhos they were connected with Wok whoa they wall tam dm rale which applied to bed. Abet to let the losses no oak or to have them put z e gale. Amager embelestied appanage he must to It wee in all OWN to reserve to the lam a provides. view to provide for the enfmn ehieement of seepplethile s end mg meaty mine* would he mated in the OW* blab osaminiesers—best to satisfy the purpose slime sal, and seat to ha applied to the com mon had be obilebbleol sem. Timber was • species of property whit h alai mat hem the existing arrange ments; it very shun imppraol that neither the lessor or Isom bed • right to seg, rod the timber on thew church 11111111.18 was found se be is • very bad and wasteful con- Mies therefore it WM proposed on the payment of the =mine, that the timber should be reserved to the Its ordinary valuations would be taken at the end of every twisty-ow years, sad not at the end of envy ones yens, as at preesat. The result of all these 'hew Om would be a great increase of church prope rt y, awl sago would be given for church purposes, without risking or venturing any of their money, and it could not be pre tended that say alienation of church property was involved In th e bill. The bill comprised other provisions for the managcmeet agnates in the hands of buboes and deans and chapters, for the purpose of carrying out the views of the legislates to give tired, instead of fluctuating, incomes to those digalittee. Uut that object had not been fully realised; some of the bishops had received more than was intended, sod others km With • view to put as end to these &Mashies, it we. proposed. without including those bishops who were appointed before there was soy regular understanding un this subject, but with eeepeet to all bishops subsequently appended it was proposed, foe the time, to MI the striesement of their estate* in th e same church essamhaismrs, the bishops ze (eking the t 0.... adored to them by low till an endow ment of lend ophelest to the Wane so fixed could be saint es theb. It was not propsord to take the ma oesseent et be 'ebbs of the dram awl chapters out of the barb althea bogies ; but any mph. which might arise es their atom would be transferred le the common fund. Tema was be gives to the eamnissimuns to borrow missy es &Wilms What be bed midi applied more to the comfort and erpity of th e bisho ps.l W l as lY pret to the whole smarm be bed only to state ant >r *Amino& it with a view et he reiceiviuir full and hi emalleendan by • egret ammittee. It was nut for bit Se Glee owedeise to the slobs pre. prelate-% as to the isms may Willi think proper le puma, But if. as it ammod bles Impandlis te obey soy measure thro u h se sour arret ammirited., or Listra l esislibild. be ambles thou to Too est the Imo esi to mist bile the tall peresebb ef Stir estalse..ll4 es be tboght. there wie - mesh to blob wheels/ sodi seesbee bold , eves tate be serried, whether it was It that bishops =Pel ag sbarriiiml dispitaries should be put to the pontiou of besibolk adrift racknots intim to all the deductions obi tedmilleme NM. est of bet state el ddage--if a large • bomb of IMMO bob be ebbed from the beliatee—he bail set teatime% TIM wig precise amount, but pumas tube men capable of Was an opinion estimated it • bulb tad eves treble its present amount—if such an increase add be derived how Owe, this similar M would pat it to me. beaeb whether It set Mmore MlMl to alltillwasil views of the impaolost anew= esmitted to their lama to give this neseene a warmovie—lvewenta welt fed emu. Ha MI sissy sewril tie e motives with wilt* Ow sinews was felt featskaes la the as itself, iR was eulsulated to prodoso. but, shore Abe felt in the 'barmier of Own to whom Se aubmiall . whom ho wow seed to mad it a seemA time. PlittiO) TM Awdidditp CATITERBUEY, trusting Ong the eassenlent might contrive how to &Mend the bill, emiesatod to the sestail feedbag. A better management of the saps- take properties . was much wanted; but ho found 111117 NAM ImpeTfetboll. In the bill Or it stood. TM Bishop of LONDON said that no one was wee elm eerely desirous than himself that the property of th e thumb should be made available for the supply of spiritual dediell• tioa; but that would not be accomplished by this bill. In fact, the bill would deprive the population of a future illsp of the means of supplying that destitution. It would soh ' posterity. The property of the church was held in teats for the Christian people of this country, and it would le a dereliction of duty to sacrifice the church's hts. Sidi not agree to this bill, though he should sot *Dot teasdse committee to consider the whole quads& Aber some observations from the Doha of RICIIIOND and Lord HARILOWnT in favour of the mama 1111.1011 by Lord Carlisle, on the understanding that /is how% by adopting it, pledged itself to nothing but a full sad Mg lip quiry into the subject, The Duke of BCCCLEUCH opposed the bill s at Ow commencement of an entire alienation of chute Lord STANLEY said that it seemed to lee admitted that some legislation on the subject our russet, and if he thought that the adoption of the proposal ler referring the bill to a select committee wee ertivalent rejecting its principle, he certainly would not be a party to a course which woul d ne gative t he only prqsmt yet sub mitted to parliament for effecting a very important object. By sending the bill to • select committee the house only declared that it declined to accede to the principle of the measure, until further inquiry had been made, and if in the course of that inquiry the Bishop of London or any one else could bring forward any scheme by which ecclesiastical property could be improved to the same extent without injury to existing righta, he (Lord Stanley) would prefer that scheme to the plan proposed by the present bill. Perhaps the second reading might be postponed, and a committee appointed to investigate the subject, to whom might be referred, not the bill itself, but the reports of the commiesioners upon which the bill was founded. Earl FITZWILLIAM could not agree with hie noble friend who had sat down, in his suggestion to abandon the bill then before them, th at it might be referred to a Com mission or • committee. He ventured to say that if the proposition of his noble friend were adopted, no bill would pass the legislature in the present session on the subject. (Hear, hear.) The Marquis of LANSDOWNE observed that there was little in the speech of the noble lord opposite (Lord Stanley) with which he disagreed. However, he thought the noble lord would see the advantage of the bill receiving • second reading. The state of church property was such as should not be continued; and, therefore, it was desirable that the legislature should interfere, with a view to placing the respeetave interests on • better footing than at present. He begged to remind the noble lied that they could not ad vance the consideration of the subject without a reference to the details of the bill, and that reference could best be had is a select committee. Ile thought the committee should have an opportunity of eonsidenng both principle and detail ; of considering the bill in reference to the reports of the commissioners, and the evidence contained in thou reports ; as also the provisions of the bill itself. He appealed to such noble lords as had experience on committees whether it was not a great advantage in such committees, whatever the opinions entertained in respect to details, that an outline of the bill should form as it were the substratum for the consideration of the committee, to help to the investigation of every detail also as the specific proposition and enactment of the bill ? (Hear, boar.) He was ready to say that, in case that course should be agreed to, he did not consider the house as pledged to the right of absolute renewal of leases. He saw nothing in the wording of the bat that could prevent the committee regulating it in a way moat conducive is the interests of the church, taking into consideration at the same time the claim of the weepier. But sending the bill to a committee at pre sent, without a second resting, would be equivalent to postponing it indefinitely, which would, he apprehended, be attended with great disappointment. (Hear, hear.) He submitted whether it would not be more expedient to allow the bill to be now read a second time, pro forme, before any further step should be taken. (Hear, hear.) The Bishop of OXF ORD rose to make a specific motion, namely, that a select committee of the house he appointed to consider by what system of management the capitular and other property of the church could be rendered most productive to the said church, and most conducive to the spiritual welfare of the people, due regard being had to the just and reasonable claims of persons now holding such pro perty, whether under lease or otherwise. (Hear, hear.) It might be objected that this course would produce delay, but it was a case to which the proverb " most haste i. worst speed" might be applied ; and he trusted they would at least be extremely cautious what measures on such • subject they carried through parliament that ses sion. (Hear, hear.) The Earl of CARLISLE would give his most decided op position to the amendment. After the discussion which had taken place—after the general concurrence in the opinions which had been expressed—after the subject had been under consideration for upwards of ten years—after • committee had been specially appointed last year, as to the report of which there had been no complain t--end after the govern ment had brought forward a measure founded upon that report—he thought it would be acting • most ungracious part now on a sudden to refuse the bill the courtesy of a second reading, for—he thought the noble lord had ad mitted—at least the present session. If a select com mittee were appointed, be thought that the person would he very sanguine who should suppose that its re port would finally dispose of the question; and as he (the noble earl) considered that the effect of the amendment, if carried, would be • virtual withdrawal of the bill, he should give it his most strenuous opposition. (Cheers.) The Earl of ABERDEEN said the noble earl who had just sat down had spoken of a second reading as a matter of courtesy ; but the fact was that the second reading, what ever might be the understanding they had come to, affirms' the principle of the bill. If the principle of this bill were, as had been represented by the most rev. prelate, the renewal of leases in perpetuity, that would be ad mitted by the second reading, and they would be debarred front touching it in committee. The provisions of the bill they might deal with in committee, but the principle they could not. The second reading was, therefore, not exactly a mere matter of courtesy. (Hear, hear.) Earl GREY entirely concurred with the noble earl who hail just spoken, but what was the principle of the bill? (Hear, hear.) The noble lords bad both stated that they were willing to take as the &Wawa of that principle the first, and the first part say, of the yeardle, amid, (and this was all that the home as salad to decide by the mond reading), that it was alhatarbAptl on all heads that the existing management of ding& peoperty was each es to be most injurious to the 1111111116 dietll.ll6, and the public, and that they would endeavour Is past an act which should substitute for the weft sea a spa= of management as should render it Most beeehdal be the said church, and most condnealr• to the epMi.al with's of the people, due regard bet, hid w Me rights of the present holders of such ProPert7.wiennalsplenermerotherwise. (Cheers.) They might altar the assmittee, and even say that whereas a ripen ban gmemesd midi which they 1111 not agree, each as altuolha was geopessil. (Hoer, hem) Although Me waradowet woo sat that the bill be NM a email Owe Mat day ix soswas e It did, in fact, laOrithe OD Wig Me maidens( the ppm* asedition of eintrelt ri lla considered that Ow boons would incur a great ty H they thus deckled taut coq legislation on enhlect whatever. _ _ Atter a few words from the Archbishop of Ciumast and Earl POWIP, their lordships divided. Contend Nan-contents The bill wu then read s second time. Several other bills were sdvenced a stage, sad Their lordships adjourned at eight o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—Tausso.ty, MAT 22. The Smacks took dui chair at 4 o'clock. __NEW WRITS. _ . Oa the mod% of 16.flawra, a Dew writ was ordered to be imad far the duds. of • member for the borough of Newry, is the roam of Lord Newry, deceased. Oa the make of ldr. C. Bares, a new writ was or dered to le Ywed far the election of a member for Argyll shire, i• the wowof Mr. D. M'Neill, who had •eespted the teen of ere of the judges of the Court of Series is BroU•ad. — The following bills were read a third time :—Chorley Waterworks; Eastern Union Railway ; Edinburgh Royal Asylum for the Insane; Liverpool Docks (Alteration of Management, Ike.); Westaresper-Mare Improvement and Market; Bills. The following bills were considered :—Brackley Roads Consolidation; Omat Western Railway (Railways to ass met the Illnatighlint and Oxford Junction Railway Ilia the Lowden and North Western Railway at B' ' 411, -): IsTllleS Bridge and Causeway; North (hays eel leprovemenu ; Sunderland Improvement; Bea. On the modem of Mr. W. Parriv, the lidinr isi rm ai Market RID was referred to the committee oa Market Removal Bill._ ---- -- PUBLIC BUSINESS. ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES ASSUMPTION BILL. Mr. T. BUNCOMBE pm asides that, in committee oa this bill, he should more that Me Ent clause be postp one d instil the lease is is af a copy of the brief, re script, er Maws ups which the enactment in the slid dame Is • RAILWAY ACCIDENTS. Sir O. CLERK said, nab' the Pladdeat of the Board of j Trade in his place, he Mimi to haw whether, in nesse- quence of the mummer Mg amilesto whir had resselly 1 occarred on railways, .dries, es it appeared, her the therness of the Word Midi doped between the dept. tine of the mew, the eight has. gerisema iambi to re osmeeri the oterprint to rope noel imealivele r wdght be aramtaray to "wad a . recurrence of mesh dleasisee. is whirr, in ease Tailwey hoards did not s perm sedlelent power he that be Intemisipr atestion to to primer he niedenel piton the .tile lire mai limbs el trarlier TWO nedbore bad waned on the are railway within the last hw dap. Mr. LABOUCHERE said the sal/set refined to by the lea. bermet had rewired, awl .sussed to receive, the root metal attention his the railway commie- THE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EVENING, MAY 23, 1851. amen. With regard to the first accident men timed, a eery able report bad been prepared by Captain Laren. who had been sent down to in vestigate the claws of it, and that report would be laid en the table. With respect to the ether accident, he be lieved shat at the Mbeilleat a cormaer's lingoes* was aiming, in militias to old& a gentleman had been seat down to in meggato Ms the icher m the government. He mast, bow „et, ta w ebb of antleatai the home against selopthig the gills the 'stalk security weal,' be in creased by Isminhreing• reepeasibility from the bands of tansy ffrealnef him of the commissioners. (Beer, heart) It wan leatesal that the accidents which had recentl osenesni Woes a feeling of alarm ; but, notwi theme malign% he mast say that, taking the railway 1111W111010111 11( this country as a whole, they son easiteeted with a degree of personal security to travellers whisk weegaits solphing. (Hear, hear.) He certainly was not as peeteall prepereen to propose any mea sure which would she the emoiselotters increased control over railway atmeN111•111. Meer.) CAPITAL *nosiest in the minds of most people to paying for the inculcation of that which did not agree with their own yttaalllgbal opinions. But the liniment system, while 14 gave a ; *era denial to secular education, patronised every kind and species of theology, and applied the publie soeney to every tweed provided it eras a weed. The prin ciple on which it proceeded was that reading and writing were bed unless aceompaaied by what some men regarded as ; was an evil without theology as a COM • thit hi =ogy being with those who did not agree with it heresy ; aid decimals were death to the soul unless neutralised by what some did not hesitate to call idolatry. In these times of strong protestant feeling could' they expect that protestant' would be content to pay for the szE:of schools in which they were told images of the Madonna were exhibited for the children to worship when Ant they entered ? Ho spoke of these things with no dis respect. (Hear, hear.) Bet where was the wisdom or tho propriety of calling upon the protestant to pay for propo gating those religious principles to which at this time the country took strong exceptien? Again, in the church schools, a catechism was taught which declared that there was no salvation out of the church—and the children were led to infer that the dissenters were the descendants of the puritans who murdered their sovereign, starved many of the clergy, and sold others into slavery—and was it reasonable that dissenters should be charged to have their own or other's children taught such things? By combining religious with secular education everyone had to pay for this inculcation of something he disbelieved. In proposing that secular education should be carried out by means of a national rate, he hoped it would not be consi dered that such a proposition would involve a burthen which the nation ought to shun. From the best calcula tions he had been able to make ho believed it would appear that they were paying as much directly now as would be necessary for carrying out a complete system of national education. (Hear, hear.) He had received communica tions from various towns showing that the sums known to be paid for public and private schools together was sufficient for the instruction of their entire population, although now half that population, to the extent of from 10,000 to 20,000, according to the number of inhabitants, were without any kind of education. lie believed that that class of ratepayers who were struggling to support largo families would be largely benetittod by his proposition for adopting a national rate for the purpose of education—aud if that plan were carried out, he would suggest that gradation schools might be established under it in which every description of education might be afforded, from tho lowest to the highest. This principle was carried out in America, and according to the report of Mr. H. Barnard, the United States' Commissioner of Education in 1046, with great success. His (Mr. Fox's) resolution asserted the desira bleness of local government as well as of local taxation and ho adopted teat principle because he believed the people generally looked with suspicion on such a task being undertaken by the government. Local ...rrangetnent would afford facilities for preventing many of the evils anticipated from the introduction of a new system, and would give a stimulus to the work of education which no ingenious device of the government could create. He was aware that some persons feared that such a plan as he proposed would crush the old schools and reduce many of the teachers to starvation. He anticipated no such result. He considered that by giving greater latitude to the local authorities, arrangementa might be made to pre vent the unnecessary extension of new schools, and to pre serve those now existing, and that in the cud the school masters would be placed in a much better - and more honour able position than that which they now occupied. But the noble lord had stated the other day that to annihilate reli gion as part of the system of education would be a great evil. That was not the proposition he had to submit. What he proposed was the reparation of secular from reli gious education. (Hear, hear.) Omit altogether religious principle from education! It could not be education without religion. (Hear, hear.) But what he de sired was that this schoolmaster should fulfil his work of secular instruction, and by doing so expand and prepare the mind for religious training, of which the clergy were the ministers, and by whom it should be carried out. There were many reasons fur separating secular from reli gious educative. Unless they did so, there was no chance of any general system of education, for it was the only principle in which compulsion could be introduced. (Hear, hear.) But, apart from this ground, was it wise, was it wholesome, that children should be trained up within the • lines of sectarian demarcation ? Was it not good that they ' should in after life look back with kindly feelings to their I old schoolfellows, that they should remember early associa nous, rather tha n that difference of creed should be raised I up into a barrier of separation. But secular education and religion were so distinct, that they could not be taught to gether. They were not taught together now, though they were taught by the same teachers. The 59th canon required every vicar, rector, curate, or parish priest to instruct the 1 young every Lord's day in the ten commandments, the Lord's prayer, and the catechism of the church. Let that work be well done, and what occasion was there for this schoolmaster teaching religion according to his notion ? (Hear, hear.) The system of combining religious with seen lar instruction originated in charity. Mr. Bathes, the philan thropic founder of the Sunday school system, saw a uumber of children in the streets on the Sunday, destitute of all edu cation, and established Sunday schools for their benefit. The provision of religious education would be furnished by voluntary contributions, and its selection should be left as a right to the parents. But the teaching provided by the state for children left without natural guardians ought to be limited to secular knowledge, and kept carefu ll y free from sectariauism. Referring to the criminal returns, the hon. member remarked that a constant decrease of ratio was found to exist in the wholly uninstructed and in the well educated classes ; but was regularly increasing with regard to those who were entered as " imperfectly educated." After dwelling upon the imperfection of the instruction afforded in the present Sunday and sectarian schools, Mr. Fox enforced the necessity of adopting the plan he now brought forward, and which was, is its principal feature*, similar to that he had suggested in previous sessions. In conclusion, he begged to move " That it is expedient to promote the education of the people, in Englund and Wales, by the cstablishmeut of free schools for secular instruction, to he supported by local rates, and managed by committees, elected specially for that purpose by the ratepayers." Sir G. OBEY could assure the honourable gen tleman that while the government could not give their assent to the resolution iu its present shape, they would not meet it in any spirit of opposition to the extension of sound and woeful education among the great body of the people, or to the prevention of members of different reli gious denominations from coming together. Ile concurred with the hon. gentleman in the importance of the object in view, and the government cordially agreed with him upon the abstract utility of extending the means of sound and useful education. He did not dispute the accuracy of the hon. gentleman's facts, tending as they did to show that there were still great deficiencies in our educational system but he must remind the house that of late years there had been a great increase in the number of schools for the education of the lower classes in this kingdom, and that the character of the education imparted in these schools had been con siderably improved. Still, there was no doubt that much remained to be done, and that the country was indebted to the hon, gentleman for the attention he had for a long period devoted to this subject. That great advantages might in many cases be derived from local management was indisputable; nevertheless, he (Sir G. Grey) would hesitate before he adopted a resolution which would have the effect of raising local educational rates, because the circumstances appertaining to parts of the country were so essentially dif ferent that the principle of rating could not be applied uni versally. Everything depended on the character of the education to be given. He confessed that he felt the same insuperable objections to the adoption of the present reso lution which he had felt to the bill of the hon. gentleman last year, inasmuch as it was inherent in both the bill and resolutions that the aid to be given by these local rates should be limited to schools in which secular in struction alone was imparted. ileapprehended that secular schools supported by local rates would supersede all the other schools now in existence. If there was one thing more than another on winch the opinion of the people of England was clearly expressed, it was this, that the educa tion to be given to the nation must be an education based upon religion, the instilling of an education based princi pally on the Word of God; and the instructing of man as MI accountable being in the duty he owed to his Creator. (Hear, hear.) The honourable gentleman had read one of the canons of the church, enjoining cateche , tical examination on the ministers of the establish ment : but the house should recollect that there was no power of compelling the masses of the people to attend I catechetical instruction. (Hear.) Then, it was also to be borne in mind that the hon. gentleman would exclude from the operation of the local rates any school that recognised the religious principle, and that even schools conducted on the Irish system would fall under the ban of his exclusion. r (Hear.) He t i(Sir U. Grey) believed it to be equally essential that tills cltes of the community—the rich as well as the poor—should be religiously as well secularly edu- i cited. (Hear.) Alluding to the "Manchester education scheme," Sir G. Grey observed that the catholic body had ' refused to co-operate in it, but still considered that in a modified and experimental form a trial of that system I might prove useful. He, therefore, hoped that the house would not assent to the motion of the honourable gentleman. He trusted that the subject would at a future time be brought forward under more favourable *winces in connexion with that populous district to which be had referred ; and if the proposed scheme should be successful in that direction he had no doubt that it would be extended, not universally throughout the country, owing to the impossibility of adapting the scheme intact to many rural districts, but still y in augmenting the means of education, and in Generally together more closely members of all religious de nominations, and in • all in one common effort for the diffusion of the greatest blessing which it was in the power of men to confer upon society—the extension of education among the poorer classes. (Cheers.) Mr. HUME thought that the right hon. gentleman bad made several admissions of great importance, but that he had also offered many objections which were entirely new, and which would not well bear examination. The right hon. gentleman had not dealt sufficiently with the great point mooted by the hon. member for Oldham, namely, the necessity of a general education of the people as the only means of improving their moral condition which, as re yarded the mass, was admitted to be deplorably low. It was idle in the right hon. gentleman to speak of the risk of adopt ing the system proposed by his hon. friend. The thing was done—the system was already at work in the United States. I (Hear.) In the United States this question was understood, • sad it was there acknowledged to be a* incumbent on a government to educate its poor as to prevent starving.itrwpoournleromoololaf this was a In the United States o tes r was s I nomy, and there could be no doubt whatever that it would be found the true economy in this country to promote education, whereby they would be enabled to do without the wetly machinery for punishing 'rime. (Hear, item) His honourable friend did not mere preolude religious instruction; on the cootreep, _de poured was that the minds of the rising generalise alssoN be pmpared, by moral training and gene ral educates. flie the neeption of religious truths. (Haar, hear.) The other day lb. magistrates of Edinburgh heti tutedan inquiry into the past lives of WO of the prisoners in one of the city prisons ; sad it was ascertained that many fami lies, for three or four generations, had at all times contri buted one or two, or even three, individuals to the gaols. All that was necessary was that parliament should give the country the opportunity of educatiug itself. Let power be given to parishes to assess property to the purposes of edu cation, the inhabitants of the pinch having agreed on the system they would adopt, and the whole tlithculty would be got over. Mr. A. B. HOPE found himself under the necessity of most strongly opposing the proposal of the hon. member for Oldham, u being, in his opinion, • measure fraught with the greatest danger to the liberty and the independ ence of religious belief. He contended that purely secular education was a thing utterly impossible—impossible by the immutable laws of nature. In the system suggested by the hon. member they might not teach dogmatic religion ; the might not teach definitive religion ; but they must teach some religion, or a negation of religion ; and the negation of religion was in itself a religion. The hon. member for Oldham asked why they could not describe to children the beauties of the face of nature without reference to religious creeds. But they could not deal with things and the names of things without going to creation and referring to the Creator. They must therefore, in what was called secular education, teach either deism or atheism. Either deism or atheism was in one sense a religion; and, there fore, whatever system of education they adopted they could not avoid imparting some religions education ? He was m anxious as hon. gentlemen opposite for the extension of education among the people; but he denied that this was the proper means of attaining their object. What he would propose was, that the government grants should be made more munificent to dissenters and to the members of the church of England, and that these grants should be in strict reference to the numerical proportion of each denomination. At the same time, let these grants be accompanied by fewer restrictive Clauses. In this way they might hope to see a national system of education; and it certainly would be preferable to the gigantic, crushing, illiberal, intolerant, and anti- Anglo-Saxon centralisation propoied by the scheme of the hon. member for Oldham. Colonel TIIOMI'SON suggested to the hon. gentleman who had just sat down that he overlooked the fact that the church of England and the dissenters of England had already made all the efforts they could to educate the peo ple upon the present system, and that they had altogether failed to supply the requirements of the community. He could not understand the pertinacity with which:the religious objection was urged to this proposal. Mr. TRELAWNY, who would vote for the motion, in sisted on the necessity of providing instruction to the fullest extent, and hoped that no narrow prejudices would stand in the way of that great result. Mr. W. PATTEN recognised the depth of the popular feeling that education should be religious as well as secular, and so long as he retained any hope that a general system of instruction could be framed upon that principle he must oppose the present proposition. Failing this result, ho should consent to adopt the plan of the member for Oldham. _ _ Mr. M. GIBSON remarked upon the difficulties and hindrances that baffled every attempt to provide education in schools of denominational character. The only resource was therefore to make the instruction simply secular. It was not fair to charge the advocates of the proposition now before them with a wish to discourage religious teaching. All that they wished was to fill up the chasm that now existed as far as lay in their power, by providing a certain proportion and kind of education fur classes which could not be reached in any other way. Mr. L. WIGRAM contended that the ratepayers were already heavily burthencd, and the funds for education ought in preference to be raised from the public exchequer. He proceeded to argue against the principle of the propo 'Rion, enforcing the importance of associating all know ledge with the truths of religion. Mr. ADDERLY, who was indistinctly heard, said he was not aware this subject would conic on that night, or ho would have come better prepared. But when he saw that the house had been the other night counted out upon a sub ject as important it seemed prooahle that this would share the same fate. He should be voting against those with whom he usually voted, but he felt impelled to support the proposition of the hon. member. If the house would take care of the great educational question they would find many complicated social problems solved fur them. Some gen tlemen had proposed delay in order to see how the present system would work, hut he would ask where was the hope. They all were agreed that religious and secular education ought to be combined, but they were also agreed that the two could not be carried out without some national rate or tax. Now secular education ' could not be carried out except by a national rate, and reli gious education could not be carried out by a national rate. The religious part could nut be so carried out. And, because they could not carry out one part they would not carry out the whole. Some merneers were of opinion that secular education in this country was in a satisfactory state, but the hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. W. J. Fox) had Cleary pointed out how it had faded. Crime was created by want of employment, but there would not be that great want of employ if there were not so great a want of secular knowledge. if a knowledge of geography only were really spread among the mass of the people, so that they could know where to go, and where they would find employ, the prisons and workhouses of the country would he emptied. (Hear, hear.) Notwithstanding what had fallen from the right hon. the Home Secretary, he did not think what was now being dons in education at all met the point he had is view. lie did not think that what was before the country met the point as regarded the poorer classes who fell into the gaols and workhouses. It did not meet their case, but dew over their heads altogether, and they know nothing about it. After some further remarks of a similar kind - , the hon. gentleman observed that the prizes of the Privy Council went to higher objects, and had been lavished upon classes which ought not to have received a farthing. When he saw such admirable systems of education existing in gaols and workhouses, he regretted that the honest poor outside the wane were debarred from the ad vantage which was bestowed within, and ho wished to extend it to them. The advantages of the proposition be fore the house were plain, and if such a system as that con templated were carried out, the burden would not rest, as it chiefly did at present, only on those who were: willing to contribute, but we should have the education of the people based on a pre-eminently unprecarious plan, and all classes being rated for their support, they would be interested in promoting their efficiency and success. SOLICITOR-GENERAL concurred with every hon. gentleman who had addressed the house on the im portance of this subject, and believed with them that no I subject of greater consequence to the well-being of the na tion could come before them than how best to educate the young of those numerous classes who were at present wholly uneducated. He had never, however, in the course of any debate heard so many singular fallacies—so many errors in fact and errors in principle—brought forward as had been uttered by hon. members that night on this question. lie really thought that the hon. member for North Stafford shire (Mr. Adderley) would not have made the observa tions he had offered to the house if he had had time to re flect over the matter. Could there have been anything more surprising than for the hon. gentleman to have based his support of the motion on the ground that there existed insuperable difficulties in obtaining the concurrence of the various bodies of religionists' to a system which embraced the religious education of the poor; which ha (the Solicitor-Oeneral) 'did not admit, and that there were not insuperable difficulties to the adoption of a system of secular education, which he (the Soliciter-General) also disputed? (Hear, hear.) And the hon. member (Mr. Adderley) had said they could obtain both secular and reli gious education by impeeing a rate for the former and leaving the latter to voluntary . effort. Did he (Mr. Adderley) suppoec that by imposing a rate for the pur poses of secular education all difficulties in the way of having the people properly educated would vanish? lie (the Solicitor-General) did not think that the hon. member could arrive at such a conclusion, for being a member of the National Society in common with himself, he well knew the difficulties that interposed in the way of obtain ing subscriptions. Did ha (Mr. Adderley) not feel that if • compulsory rate were imposed the difficulties in procuring subscriptions for the support of those schools at present in existence, and where the religious clement had been introduced, would be found insuperable ? Parties who at present subscribed to the free schools would take the excuse which the imposition of the rate would afford. Such a measure as was proposed would be of the most tyrannical character as respected all the schools in the country where anything in the shape of religion was introduced, and people would be compelled to pay a double rate before they could obtain that species of education they desired; they would be obliged to pay the rate for the secular schools, and also to contribute to the support of the religious schools. He (the Solicitor-General) did not think that the sys tam of secular education, as proposed by the hon. mem bler for Oldham, was one which the people of England teen agreed to adopt. The promoters of this scheme seemed I be be aware that " secular education would not be popu lar, for their society had been first called the Association der Promoting " Secular " Education, but it was now arced the National Public School Association. (Hear, boar.) The name had been changed—changed advisedly, emd the word " secular" had been dropped out. Mr. COBDEN begged to explain. It had been proposed flint the word " secular " should be introduced into the Ws of the association, but he (Mr. Cobden) had urged that the name should not be altered, and it was the same now as it had boen since its institution. (Hear, hear.) The SOLICITOR-GENERAL was much obliged to the Ma. member (Mr. Cobden) for putting him right. lie 'Membered that there had been a discussion on the subject of Manchester, and his impression had been that at that meeting the word " secular," which had formerly been in Me title of the association, had been dropped. It appeared, l•wever, that mainly through the instrumentality of his boa. friend Mr. Cobden, who had a talent for discovering what would be acceptable to the people, the word secular had not been adopted. If it were said that the people were in favour of " secular" education, he would only refer to the proceedings of that meeting at Manchester. There were, however, other parties at Manchester engaged in the MUM of education besides those who attended this meeting. A committee had been formed there, consisting of gentle men of every shade of politics, from the highest tory (if any such now existed), to the strongest ' radical, and gentlemen, too, of every relit: creed. It was quite t rue that there had • accession of Reiman catholic priests, bat oar Or the laymen had seceded. This committee had mood do Ico-operation of a large body of the people to a system I which he would not say was perfect, but which accrued to have met the difficulty which encompassed the subject in a manner which ho had not previously heard proposed. They proposed filling the schools already in existence in the first place, and defraying the cost of educating the children by uplifting a rate, which should be divided to the school' of all denominations, in proportion to the number of scholars they contained. This was, no doubt, a local sys tem. It was to be confined to the town of Manchester ; but it was left to the other towns to adopt the plan. Ile thought it indeed a valuable suggestion that any system should h' thoroughly tested before they committed themselves to it. He (the Solicitor-General) did not think the United States was an example so favourable to the case of the hon. mem ber (Mr. Fox) as some were apt to suppose. All the state, were not agreed on the subject—all did not exclude religion. (Hear, hear.) The arguments which had been used with respect to the effect of the want of education on crime he held to be overcharged. No education would make crime disappear. It was idle to talk of the poor giving their chil dren religious education at home. - Parents of this cle.a came home from their labour worn out end ivied, and moray of them had not the time even though they poseeseed the will to impart religious instruction to their children. Mr. TRELAWN Y—What is the church about ? (Hear, hear.) The SOLICITOR GENERAL—His hon. friend, the member for Tavistoek, asked what the church was about. The clergy were willing to do what they could for the reli gious education of the people, but in most of the manu facturing districts their number was so disproportioned to the popalation,thattheyeould not undertake the instruction of the people. He (the Solicitor-General) believed that a child was educated by all he heard and saw, and it was of the utmost importance that religious instruction should he imparted to him as opportunity offered. To a schoolmaster the opportunities were frequently occurring in which he could imbue the mind of the scholar with sound religious knowledge. Ile could do it in connexion with gee. graph'', astronomy and many other subjects. Re (the Solicitor-General) wished to see the fabric of our national prosperity based, not merely on the intellectual advancement of our people, but also on the development of their moral and spiritual functions. Mr. COBDEN thought the honourable and learned gentleman did not deal fairly with the argument of the hon. member for Staffordshire ; for he went upon the assumption that the hon. gentleman supported two kinds of education—an education of a secular, and au education of a religions kind, both out of the public funds. Now he (Mr. Cobden) understood the hon. gentleman to say there was a provision for religious, but not for secular education, and that he would agree to a system of secular education rather than have none at all. The hon. and learned gen tleman said this system was impracticable, but the hon. and learned gentleman forgot that his own plan had been tried for Id years in this country, and had been brought to a dead lock, and the right hon. baronet, the Secretary fur the Home Department, admitted that the present spasm bed failed, and he grounded his argument upon the fact that Som., gentlemen had come from Manchester with a new scheme, and that ho believed their plan would succeed. If they wanted a proof that the present system had failed, look at the amount of money they had voted. For the last fit e years the vote bad been 120,0001., no change, no increase, nothing to meet the increase of population. And why ? Because it was a subject that they dare not touch in that house, because the present system was so unsatisfactory that in spite of two large blue bookeof correspondence and minutes, and these details over an expenditure of 124,000/., notwith standing all the efforts of the committee of privy council, and he did not blame them for those efforts, hut he ho noured them for trying to do that which could not be done in that house. No one knew better than did government that they dare not stir the question with a view of getting a grant commensurate with the wants of the country, in order to carry out the system which at present exists. And now what was it that government was falling hack upon ? a local scheme in Manchester which had already failed in precisely the same way as the government plau had failed on these religious difficulties. The gentlemen who came to town front Manchester did him also the honour of calling upon him, and he rejoiced tone them endeavour ing to overcome the difficulties of realising a eyetom uf edu cation. They told him, 311 they told the right hon. gentle man, that they had the concurrence of ail the religious sects, that the Rumen catholics had joined them as well as the dissenters, but he received a letter from them after their return to Manchester, that, to their surprise and regret they bad to tell him that not two of the Rumau catholic clergy, as the hon. and learned gentleman had stated, but 18, vir tually the whole body of the Roman catholic clergy, but acceded from that plan of education. And why ? Simply because the committee that met in Manchester made it fundamental principle of their scheme, that in all schools supported by the public rates in Manchester, the autho rized version of the Bible should be reed, and that being a condition which the Roman cetho lies could not comply with, that, of course, separated them altogether from this plan of education. Now, he asked any one in that house, if any plan of public educa tion could be satisfactory in the boroughs of Manchester and Salford combined, which excluded the poorest of the poor classes. There were in Manchester and Salford at least 100,000 Roman catholics. They were the poorest of the population, and if ignorance were au evil they were the most dangerous part of the population to be left in igno rance. And yet this was a plan en which the right lion. gentleman relied iu order to relieve him from the difficulty he was in. They were in precisely the same difficulty in Manchester that they were in in that house, fur he maintained that the little good that was done was done surreptitiously by the privy council, and not by a vote in that house. What were the minutes of the privy council? Did they sup pose they would stand the debates in that house any more than the motion of his hon. friend. Bring forward a vote for the maintenance of Roman catholic colleges, in which they would be allowed to carry on in their own pecu liar way their own doctrines and worship, and did they think that vote would pees that house ? There was a funda mental evasion cud fallacy about the whole of this educa tional vote. He asked them, when they talked so much of religious education, if this 115,0001. was for religious teach ing, because he understood when they were passing an educational vote it was not fur religious education ? When the vote was first agreed to, in 1831, it was called school money ; it was 10,0001. or 20,0001. to begin with. After wards it was changed to education, but they did not vote the money for religious education. Could they veto any sum in that house if it were asked fairly for religious instruction ? No, it could not be done, and it could not be one for many years past, and never more would they vote any money in that house as an endowment fur religion. And, therefore, when they talked to hint about voting for religious educati on , h e said it was not en accurate description of what they voted it for. He said once for all, he considered there was provision made for religious training, but not for secular training, and therefore he wished to give them to secular training. He wanted people to be able to read and write—to be able to sigu their names when they signed a contract or registered the birth of their children. Ile wanted people to be trained in habits of thought and forethought, and he did not know any other term than secular education. But why ring the changes upon secular education ? He said once for all that he was not opposed to the bible or any other eeligious book being read in schools. What he wanted was to have the same system of education in England that they had in Islassaehus sets, in the United States of America. He would not go to Louisiana or Georgia, but his system was that of Mesas chusseta. And he challenged hon. gentlemen to the test. I Ile believed that when the system of free schools was adopted, such would be the estimation in which education would he held by the MASI of the people that it would not be easy to keep children from the schools. Where was the difficulty of their doing what had been done in Maasachus stets? He would not be driven from that ground. Give him the Massachussets plan. He declared upon his honour that the mass of the people in Maesachusseta were as eupe rlor to the mass of the people in Kent as the people of Kent were to the people of Naples. Now, there had been an objection made that they intended to supersede existing school-rooms; it had been assumed that the plan of his honourable friend must neces sarily throw to waste all existing schools belonging to places of worship. Ile saw no necessity for that at all. Ile considered they might make use of the existing school-rooms, as well for this system as for any othor, and he never contemplated such a waste as to render useless existing schoolrooms. Now, the hon. and learned gentle man had told them, and the right MIL, gentleman the Secretary of State for Home Affairs was of the same opi nion, that if they adopted this plan of secular education they . would shut up all the other schools. That was an ad mission, by the way, that they were going to establish some thing better than the old system. But they went further, and said when they shut up the school s they would de prive the people of religious education, because the great bulk of the people got no religious instruction, now, ex cept what they got in their schools. When his ho nourable friend near him ejaculated what were the clergy doing ? he thought that was a natural exclama tion. They paid 5,000,0001. or 6,000,000!. a year to the clergy, and it was rather a bold thing for a devotes) of the church to say if the children did not get religious training in the schools they would get no religious training at all. The hon. and learned gentleman, when he an swered that ejaculation of the hon. member for Taviatock, turned immediately to the manufacturing hives, where, from increase of population, he said, there was much igno rance. He begged the hon. and learned gentleman's par don, but the great mass of ignorance was not in the manu facturing towns, but in the rural districts—(hear, hoar) — though he admitted there was much ignorance in the ma nufacturing districts, because the surplus population of the Agricultural districts went to the manufacturing district. He could not help expressing the great gratification which he felt at the difference between the tone of the discussion that evening and the tone of the debate last year. For his own part, he must say that there was no other subject on which he felt so tolerant towards everybody as ho did on this subject of education. If he saw the government doing something—he cared not how—he was grateful for it. If he saw hon. gentlemen opposite--whether high church or low church—trying to secure for the people a better educa tion, he thanked them. As a matter of economy—as a matter of charity, goodwill, and kindness, let them all try to get on neutral ground ; let them try to do so, not only on account of this good which would thus be done to the mass of the people of this country, who would never be educated under any other system, but in order that they might have an opportunity of meeting as it were out of the pale of those religious strifes which were now more threatening than ever. (Hear, hear.) Bit R. INGLIS was as glad of the alteration in the tone a the discussion as the hon. member for the West Riding; bat, powerful an that hon. gentleman was as an advocate, be must say that he had not proved himself a very good advocate for the resolutions before the house. He rose, as be understood, to support the proposition of the hon. mem ber for Oldham, but had he not that very evening proposed fISHMENT IN SCOTLAND AND TSB COLCNIES._ Mr. =WART mend a retToititionifllrming the expe diently ef eatmigsg to Ileelleod and to the colonies the missgegms whit boo been made in England in the laws WWI." parldimest. lie observed that, although ammaity the eel law of Scotland was much lee ma =tth= that dEngland, the latter had now become on mitigated Am the former. The laws prevailing be ear 'skein WINO various and anomalous ; but there was se romene e ha suilietlosk why their criminal jurisprudence should met be embebeesd to our own, and he believed that, if the Colorist Somorary were to intimate his wish to that effect, no oppaddeet would be offered on the part of the colonies. Mr. F. MAULE entertained no objection to the abstract propoition, which was almost self-evident, but ho did object to the House of Commons pledging itself to a vague resolu tion of this kind. With respect to the colonies, we did not legislate in this matter for them; at the same time, he trusted they would look to the good example of the mother country, which could not, however, expect to force them by • resolution of that house. . . . . . - .—.---- —.--- Mr. HUME observed, that the benefits which had been derived from the diminution of the number of capital punishments in England, made it desirable that the system should be catended wherever the influence of this country prevailed. Mr. HAWES said, in the West Indian and some of the North American colonies, which lagged behind the legisla tion of the mother country, the practice had, nevertheless, been assimilated to ours ; and even is the conquered colo nies, such as the Cape where the Baas-Dutch law pre-' ' railed, the theory had been peeelleeD7 adopted to the stand ard of England. Under these circumstances, he thought it more desirable that discussion, not force, should mirk a change in tho colonies. After a few words from Fir G. GREY, who said he agreed in the spirit of the resolution, as regarded Scotland, Mr. Ewaiw withdrew his motion. SECULAR EDUCATION. - - - - - Mr. FOX, who was but very imperfectly heard, rose to bring the tamtion of secular education under the considera tion of the hernes. He said that at the recent meeting of the British ates= School Society the First Lord oldie Treasszy was to have adverted to an anticipated approximation Admen who held different opinions oaths subject of education, adding, that the present was the time for some exertion on the subject. lie (Mr. Fox) took the noble lord's observation as his text, and hoped, that if the noble lord did not give him his active support, he should at least meet with no vexatious obstruction from the govern ment. He hoped that the noble lord would introduce some measure himself, or, at least, that he would look favour ably on a propositio n coming from any other quarter. There were few points upon which Englishmen were not jus tified in feeling proud, when thinking of their country. Every thing in fact was subject for gratulation until they came to the one point of education, the mention of which was sufficient to call uo a blush in their cheeks. In that one matter they were behind not only the old world, but the new, and t he question was nut whether they stood first among the nations, but whether they stood ninth or tenth, or even in a still more inferior paition. This was not ade eirable state of things for the country when considered even in an monomial point of view. It was hardly possi ble to calculate what the crime consequent upon ignorance annually cost us. Liverpool was mulct 700,0001. annually by its thieve ; and at Manchester and Salford it was estimated that, the cost would suffice to educate the whole of their jusesffiaipulation. In Bristol gaol, it was reported that ems party of thieves had cost the county 27,0001. He people had a right to claim that they should ant left helpless. Our constitution required that they Amid bo educated. They seers called upon, some of them, to exercise the elective franchise, some to serve on juries, while all were frequently appealed to, on questions of the greatest public importance. lie did not ask it for them as a measure of compassion, but as one of justice and necessity. The present machinery was acknowledged to be inenMetent, but even that, the inspectors stated, could not he maintained, except by a national rate. Mr. Kennedy ✓ail his conviction was that the present scheme must be sieen up unless a rate on the tenants houses • possessors of land throughout the country were imposed for this purpose. This was the state ' ment of Mr. Kennedy as to the north-western district. There was no way of bringing about au improve ment except by a national system supported by a na tional rate. In the present year the inspectors had used still stronger language. The Rev. Mr. Mosley's septet was one continued illustration of the necessity for slam era measure than that now in operation. The BM. J. Diaadkati said: " The exigencies of the ease odd not he ma by the voluntary system." He (Mr. rue) dame ht late ease was clearly made out by the state ment, of these agents of the government, and be also head that they indicated the particular remedy to be ap plied—a compulsory adoption of a general system of edu cation. The inspectors had visited tho highest class of schools as well as the others, and their impression of them was contained in the following remark :—" Nor need wo look further than to the fact, that the schools in existence are twice as luge generally as is required by the average number of scholars." In many cases the schools were not half occupied. The total number of schools receiving assistance from the government grant was 3,223, providing accommodation for 339,000 children ; but the average daily attendance was only 248,979. This great mistake of making the schools needlessly large was eating into the heart of all efficiency in the present system. Nor was this the only evil. The grant was ad ministered in • way that gave the appearance of partiality. He did not mean to charge the committee with intentional partiality, but apparent and inevitable partiality was in herent in the system. Take the two great societies to whom the grants were made, viz., the British and Foreign School Society, and the National School Society, which might be said to be twins, for they had come into existence within a few minutes of each other some half century ago. Now no one could deny that the British and Foreign Society had done much reed in the promotion of education ; but how did it stand in regard to the distribution of the government grant t In 1840 the amount granted to each was about equal, viz., 3,2401. to the Chdsch Society Schools, and 4,2201. to the British and Foreign (the Dissenters) Schools. In the following year the grant was increased, and then the disparity began to show itself, the amounts granted being respectively 13,1971. to the church schools, and 10,9451. to the dissenters' schools. That disparity continued to in crease, and in 1849 it became excessive, the amount granted to the National Society's schools being 39,5741., and to the British and Foreign 3,3501. ; and to August last year the grant to the Church Schools had been 21,7201., and to the British and Foreign, 3861. (Hear, bear.) He believed this disparity to be in the system, and that reli gious and other difficulties had contributed to reduce the amount of the grants made to the dissenters, and not any partiality on the part of the distributors of the fund, who, he had every ground for belisviug, acted with the utmost &Naas. But, whatever the cause ' such was the result. There was another point which gave the appearance of par daft to the administration of these grants. Of all the seised iaspostan appointed there were only three who did net beleng to one profession, sad that was the church. No doubt clergymen were necessary es *streams, but there was on educational literature in the country which had t forward =nee of am conspicuous in the science ir lu teation, and the public, who regarded them things with • jealous eye, expected to Bad these names amongst the list of the government agents. They thought that a university education, in Nemesia with the established church, was not the best means of preparing men to judge of the state of schools, and the com parative _ excellence of the Alerts to train poor children. There was also ano dor show of partiality induced by the instructions which the committee of council laid down in regard to the bestowment of grants. Money was given, not in lroportion to the educational wants of • district or ocality, but the amount of voluntary subscriptions which were collected for the purposes of eduration. He found that r al c u i r r lication for a grant was refused, because no ' religious education was given in the ohm , yet in many schools of this de scription, a more sound and really moral and religious education, was afforded than in many establishments professing to be of • higher character. There was an appearance who of unfairness in the way in which rate payers in rural districts found themselves charged for giving to pauper children an education which they cannot give to their own children. This dis crepancy was forcibly pointed out in the report of the Poor Law Commission for 1850. (Bear, hear.) But amongst the worst of the partial results modem.' by*, present system was the inequality with which the huede for the support of the parish schools fell upon allerest I dames. Of all classes the parochial clergy were by far the most heavily taxed, for, though in many cams they failed in inducing their parishioners to join in contributing volun- I eerily, 800 philanthrophic feelings would not permit the parish schools to want the means of keeping them up. (Hear, hear.) In one case, where the ann u al sum to be raised for maintaining the school was 281.144.4 d., the subscription li st contained the names of s i x f armers and landowners for 34. each, one for 10a., the lord of the manor and the principal landowners foe three guineas, the rector's lady a guinea, • friend of the meter's 51., and the rector himself 171. 10e. (Hear, bear.) Another clergyman stated I that having incurred frost seed less, both of time and , to raise the school, neither the landowners nor the eses would now assist him In supporting it, and that a seal *gent and a land agent who contributed 11. eac h, were the only persons who aided him at all in meeting the ne cessary expenditure, the whole of which, with this small sionwtion, tell upon his sell Ea meld if recess ry refer to may instances showing tbs sevess pressure whic' h sup pat of labs* ocoasieset to the elem. There he *mkt, strong roma& tar the adoption of a I rate. Be was aware that the talking dialculty whisk stood in the way of so many saw welloievased plias also against this. There was a astatbass tmfl very instant