The Express. — London, England, 1848-06-10 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAitikiN HOUSE OF LORDS.—FRIDAT, JUNE 9. The LORD Cstancestoa took his seat at 6 o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. SECOND READINGS.--Queensferry Pemage; Brighton Gas Light and Coke Company ; Nantwich and Wheelock Turnpike load; South Yorkshire, Dononiter, and Goole Railway Amendment (Extenolsa to POMMOISO sail Alteration of Dudworth Branch); Bills. THIRD READINGS.—North of Scotland Fire and Life Assurance Oompany ; 'lei el 11•710.101 Dock Comma' ; Itoreotry Market.; Liverpool Oas Light Compuly and Liverpool New Goa and Coke Canipany Amalgamation (umendmental; PUBLIC BUSINESS. siscoNn READlNOS.—ltegistering Births, Re- (Scotland); Mar riage (Stotlatd) ; Bine. TIII RD RE A Nti s.—(bl lectors ofttlias (Ireland); Petty Bag Mee; Ores' Yarmouth Freemen Dishanehionnent ; Bills. PETITIONS.—By the Earl or Fourfrox, ll ; sad f rom Town from Paisley and other places, ageing Registration (Scotland) ih Council of Waive, wino any alteration In the navigation taw, Earl of OALI.OWAY, from various methodist congregation:A *Phut diplomatic relations with ths Gum of Mama; rum the general so. "a b ly of Church of Scotland, *mime the Re Aeration (heotland) Bill; and Law of Wiretap (Scotland) Dill. —Karl ot YA ttl3o. "UGH, petition against the payment of IM yMO) duty b charitable inatitutionK —The Duke of BUCCLUCII, eeveral pentium. from Dumfries, Dundee. Ihnburgh, and se veral oth Papa : the Earl of ABESDEE-al, trom Ayr : Eurt of ROSEBERY, from Linlithgow : Duke of RICHMOND, from opts°. in Scotland —Agana' the ttegatra tdnn (Scotland) Bill. NOTICE OF MilTlON.—ftrore or lIIIIIAND.—EarI of FIT/WIL LIAM. on Monday, the l9th, to call the attention of tho bowie thereto. ROYAL ASSENT. The Royal Assent woe given by commission to the following bills: the emumi,aioners were the Lord Chancellor. Lord Campbell, and the girl of Shaltesbury Tobago Relief and Immigration into British Guiana and Trinidad, the Indemnity, the R, mond of Micah, Insolvent Debtors' (India), National Mugu nent of olcotLial Amendment, Clifton Bridge, Leicester N ingahos, Folkestone Waterworks, Birkenhead Dock Companv, Bristol and Clifton Gas amendment, %Nonvoter New Oat. Shrove bury Market, Magdalen Hoop:tat Act Amendment, Soft:ranee Wharfs, Ike. (Southwark), Leiorker 1,U11.3110 Asylum, Liverpool Decks, Dover lan mg Pier. Mobster General Mmetery, Price's Patent Candle Compute, Leisnman's Lalute, Maxweil's Itestitution, Ileuesrp's Di vorce; Della. SPANISH PENSIONERS. The Marquis of LONDONDEItitY, referring to a paper which had been laid on the table of the house r. open:log the Spanish pensioners, said that it contains el the names of per sons who were not entitled to the pension. The noble mar aunt having read some of the names in the list, demanded to know upon whs• they were retained there. Lord MONTEAGLE complained that such imputations should be cast up.n men without notice, and is their ob. fence. The gore/mint-or were not responsible for putting those persons on the list They htd been put there by the authorities at the Horse Guards, and the money they re. mired was voted by parliament. Tae Duke of WELLINGTON said that those pensions originated in a private charity, and were afterwards taken up by parliament. B . tt no change had taken place from the commencement to the present is the spirit with which these pensions had been granted. The Earl of kl INTO said there was great inconvenience and want of delicacy in raising such conversations without any motion or notice thereof. After a few words from Lord BROUtatl.lll, the matter dropped. PENINSULAR MEDALS. The Duke of RICHMOND inquired why these medals, which were an lona promised, had not been issued. Earl GREY said that the delay was owing to the neces sity of eagraving the name of each individual. It was a work of great labour, anti r. quire,' much time ; but Mr. Wyon, to whom be had spoken on the subject, said that they would be delivered in a very short time. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY objected to this sys tem of ex poet facto rewards. He looked upon it as most injurious to the service, and as a prostitution of orders. The Duke of RICHMOND warmly defended the prectice; and asked, was it a prostitution of orders to give medals to those men who bad lcd • forlorn hope at Badajoa. St. Sebas tian, Ciudad Rodrigo, and who gained for the noble mar. quis the honours with which he was now decorated ? The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he had applied the tam prostitution to the new arrangements under the civil order only. REGISTERING BIRTHS, &c. (SCOTLAND) AND MARRIAGE (SCOTLAND) BILLS. Lord CAMPBELL hoped the house would not refuse to enter upon a consideration of these two bills, which involved no political or party question, and were intended simply for the social improvement of Scotland. The first of these bills had reference to the registration of births, deaths. and mar riages. As the law now stood there was no regu'er of births, there was only a register of baptises* of those who were within the pale .•1 the est 'Wished church. The register of marriages was still more defective; and, with regard to deaths, it wee not compulsory to make any entry of deaths or burials. Now, he proposed to assimilate the law of Scotland to that of England, and to make the registry of births, deaths, and marriages compulsory. The expense he proposed to provide for by an assessment, which would be very trifling in amount. lie believed that all the opposition to the bill came from interested paries—thesessionsclerts—weo would not, as he believed, be injured at all, for the registration, as now carried on by them, of baptisms, &c., would not be interfered with. The object of the second bill was to amend the law relating to marriages in Scotland. Anything more defective than the law as it exited in this respect could e:ot well be Imagined. There were several ways by which marriages might be con tracted in Scotland—first, by the marriage ceremony per formed by a minister of the church ; secondly, without any minister or ceremony whatever, but simply by an acknow ledgment before witnesses that the parties were man and wife; thirdly, by a promise proved. And there was yet another mode—viz., if the conduct of the parties was such as to lead to the supposition that they were married the law assumed them to be to. These various kinds of marriages might be proved at any time, and by any evidence ; and there were many instances in which marriages were de dared to be invalid in consequence of some proof being afterwards produc , d that one or other of the parries had been married before in one of the doubtful and objectionable modem be had mentioned, and that the first husband or wife was living at the time of the second marriage. This was a state of the law which occasioned great uncertainty and great evil. He proposed by his bill that marriages be contracted in Scotland for the future only in one of two ways, viz., in the church by the marriage ceremony per formed by a clergyman, or before a public functionary to be calld a registrar. He bad inserted a provision to guard against clandestine marriages—that no marriage should be solemnised, unless one or other of the contracting parties bad resided in the parish for 14 days preceding. It had been suggested that these bills should be referred to a select com mittee. To that course he had no objection, and would therefore move that they be read a second time and committed to a select committee. Lord BROUGHAM seconded the motion, and observed that nothing could be more unsatisfactory or uncertain than the present law relating to marriages in Scotland. The Earl of SELKIRK, in order to enter his protest against the second wilding of the Registration Bill on the journals, woulu move that it be read a second time that day six months ; but he did not pro pose to give the house the trouble to divide. He objected to the bill, because he believed the abject might be attained by means of the existing perish register, without all the cumbrous machinery it war proposed to bring into action, and the consequent expense to the country. The Earl of EGLINTON, while admitting that the present system of registration of births, deaths, and mar riages in Scotland required amendment, objected altogether to the principle on which this bill proceeded. His first ob jection was, the large amount of patronage which would be created by the measure—the number of new offices he be lieved would be not fewer than 2,000. He believed that the exis'iog machinery, with some slight alterations, and th • assistance of a few additional clerks, would be found suffi- ' cient for all the purposes required. Then there were amity clause. of the bill altogether impracticable. With reference to the Marriage Bill he did not object to the principle, but there were many details which would require alteration in committee, and therefore he should reserve his right to vote against the third reading should such alterations not be made. The Earl of ABERDEEN said that, in his opinion, the two measures before the house had no necessary connexion. A complete system of registration would be most desirable, and alterations in the marriage law might also be necessary; but that was no reason why their lordships should mix up two such distinct questions in one act of legislation. He thought that the better amuse would be to proceed with the Registration of Births Bill at once, and to postpone the Mar riage Bill far future consideration. The Duke of ARGYLE objected to the Registration Bill on account of its centralising character. The Duke of MONTROSE said that the clergy of Scot land had great apprehensions that the effect of the Marriage Bill would be to produce great annoyance amongst the people on account of the double f, e which it required on the solemnisation of marriage. He thought that in cases where marriage had been previously solemnised by a cler the registrar should not be entitled to any fee. He o t g= generally to the compulsory character which pervaded the whole bill. After a few words from Lord WRARNCLIFFE, The Duke of BUCCLEUCH did not wish to be under stood as giving an unqualified consent to the bills before the house. He quite agreed with his noble friend (the Earl of Aberdeen) in thinking that there was no necessary connexion between the Registration and Marriage Bills. The Marquis of BREADALBANE supported the bills, and stated that they were generally approved of in the part of Scotland with which he was connected. After an observation from the Earl of MINT°, the amend ment was negatived without a division, and both bills were read a second time, and ordered to be referred to a select committee. Their lorelships adjourned at eight o'clock until Thursday next. HOUSE 1F COMMONS.—FRIDAY, JUNE 9. The Brews took the chair at 4 o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. REPORT CONSIDERED.- London and (loath Western Railway Company's Acta Amendment, Extenaion, Deviation, and New Works Bill. THIRD READINGS.—Arbroath and Forfar Railway (additl onal capital); Olaagow, Pideley, and Greenock Railway (amendment and braathea, &c.) Manchester Corporation Waterworks Acts Arne 'A nent (No. 2)• Mb.laad Railway (branch to Ri ley, fic ) ; Midland Railway (Ol:moseter and Stonehouse Junctio n; Scottish Midland Junction Railway (amendment and branch to Laurencekirk) ; Water ford and Kilkenny Railway Act Amendment; Bills. PUBLIC RUSIN E. 5.6. PETITIONS.—By Col. REID, from three Odd Fellows' lodges held at Windsor. for an act of legalisation.—Mr. C. P. GRENFELL (100), from honectolders in Preston; Mr. HEYWOOD (80), from Preston ; Mr. 0. THOMPSON (20), from Preston; Dr. BOWRINO, from Bolton; Mr. A. amine, from Olarctow; Kr. S. CRAWFORD, from Preston; Mr. BRIGHT (32), from Preston ; Mr. HUME (120), from Preston and various districts of the metropolis ; Mr. CO DEN, Bon Preston and Burnley, all in favour of further parliamentary reform. — Lord D. STUART, from lour residents in St. Pancras, and Mr. G. THOMPSON, from the Tower !Lamle% in favour of the est.Vel the peoples tharier.—Mr. RINDLET, trots Ashton; Mr. D L a NEII, from ?mitered; Mt. FORSTER, from rwick; and Me. BRIGH, from Bury, her legislative enactment to nne vent the seleofspirituous liquors on Bendays.—Mr. MACKINNON, from tit. Whiteebapet, la favour of the Public Health BIIL—Mr. E. ACHE, from meeting Mad at Kilmersock, IR favour of =address to her Majesty, to diendos her peewit addrera, sod to retract John Mitchel from euetady.—Mr. 0. THOMPSON, from 400 hooseholders of the Tower Hamlet.. setting forth that the pollee on Sunday last had been guilty of unprovoked outrages on the people, toned whom had received serious Injure., and had signed the petition, and praying for a POSTOilinj {pair's Into the conduct of the yolk. 041 that day.-14r. J. NEELD, _fressamk; Mr. E. DENI.ON, from Yaetablee; and Mr. noTHEROnt. bine Milts, for an alteration In the laws relating to trione.—Lord DRUMLANRIG, from Dumfriee, against the and Marriages (Scotland) DAL —OS. THOMPSON, from alewilie blemeholdere dn the metropolis mad ha vicinity. 'staled the =ieleaenaentatotown•ho repeal of the dutie—Mr.C.VlLLlENS,fromeertaindireetors emileniert. for ts on tlrs 1 1 1. PALKEA , froml'lrnoutb. Whet any alteration of the hmrs.—Mr. BRIGHT, from 1,900 resident. in Lancashire, Mif& — ishnlieln of church rated; front an Individual named Watson, bean anniWisent of the law which authorise. the seizure of the pro- ECUt e. pgreilis °goateed of political diem.; and bent a place in kr Ste abalttiem et the game laws.—Mr. ELLICE, Jun., from whet lie Lem& hayloft's (Scotland) Bill.—Sir O. 011EY, &MU Wed itandlemetn Northumberland, for certain alterations la Wpm lawn—lad H. VANE, from Win...kers and others of theskimeon-Tees; Lord 0. BENTINCK, from merchants, NMI,. owlet% and ehipwrights of Hull and other pleas., against any alters. Han in the navigation laws. Lord D. STUART said he bad been entrusted with • pe tition higned by 191 unemployed operatives of St. Mauls bone, suiting their great distress from want of employment, and that the best remedy for their grievances would be to be allowed to cultivate a portion of Epping Forest, by which they could support their (Antilles and themselvi e ; and they earnestly prayed an advance of public money for the purchase of tools. &c., in aid of such an undertaking. The SPEAKER intimated that a petition with such a prayer could not, according to the standing order ot the helve, bo received. Lord 1). STUART consequently withdrew the petition. NATIONAL LAND COMPANY. Mr. 11AVTER brought up the report of the select com mittee on the National Lend Company, which was laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. VAN DIE)IEN*S LAND—REMOVAL OF MR. JUSTICE MONTAGU. Mr. E. DENISON said that, seeing the hon. member the Under-Secretary for the Colonies in his place, he wished to kliow whether he was able to give any inewinci on with respect to the removal of Mr. Montagu from his office of a judge at Van Diemen's Land. Mr. HAWES replied that the facts were there. Mr. Jeetiti Montagu was sued for a debt in the supreme court, and to that action be had pleaded that an action could not be brought against hint in the court of which be was one of the judge% The chief justice held the plea to be bad, and the plaintiff in the action having made complaint to the governor, au investigation into all the cir cumstances took place. Mr. Juetico Montagu was fully beard, and, in toe Jesuit, the governor, acting with his council and the advice of the law officers, came to the conclusion that the defence set up by Mr. Montagu was most unsatisfactory, and that he (the governer) could take no other course than remove Mr. Montagu from hie office of judge. Mr. Montagu hid his remedy by an appeal to the pnry council; he (Mr. Hawn), therefere, wished to abstain from stating more than was absolutely necessary to clear the authorities from the charge of acting with partiality and indiscretion. Mr. ANSTEY asked whether it appeared from the des patches of Sir Wm. Denison that the charge which bad been made the pretext for removing Justice Montagu from the bench—the charge of having evaded the payment of a debt— had been made before judgment had gone against theerown, with respect to the legality of the 15 per cent. Duties Act ; and whether it appeared that the judge's defence given in to that charge on that occasion had been endorsed by the governor—"this defence is quite satisfactory ;" and fur ther, whether it appeared that the charge had not been re newed until two or three days after the Supreme Court of Van Diemen's Land had given judgment against the go vernment with respect to the validity of those revenue acts? Mr. HAWES said he had stated very fully all he knew respecting the circumstances attending the removal of Mr. Montagu. Mr. HUME asked if the government were in possession of any statement from the solonies complaining of the ciao niil government having removed • judge because of his having ,tisallowed taxes which he believed to be illegally levied ? Mr. HAWES said the noble lord at the head of the colonial department was is possession of no more informa tion on the subject than he had communicated to the house. He did not believe that J ustice Montagu 's removal bad any relation whatever to the judgment given in his court. It was founded entirely on the erounds he had referred to, which had been made the subject of complaint before, by successive go CHAPLvernors, to fllfteiSlVO seer, tatio• of state. AINCY OF MADEIRA. Mr. DISRAELI wished to ask the noble lord the Secre tary for Foreign Affairs, if there had recently been any ethane in the regulations which had been established (or WSW time with respect to the chaplains in foreign parts, who bad hitherto been authorised to till those poets by the noble bed? Viaceunt PALMERSTON said the question was stated very imperfectly, but perhaps it would be better for him to answer that which he believed the hon. gentleman meant to ask, rather than what he has asked. ( Hear, hear.) He understood the question to relate to a clerical dispute which had been going on tor • long time in Madeira, respecting a certain Mr. Lowe, whom he had appointed chaplain, and who unfortunately differed with the majority of the British residents; that difference had produced great public incon venience, he might say scandal, amongst the proiestaat residents of the place. The regulation he had established regarding the appointment of chaplains was this : the Consular Act gave the appointment and re moval to the S..cretary of State. On Slat exercising that power, he had felt it undesirable and inconvenient that the Secretary of State should himself select the chap lains to act on foreign stations; he had thought the Scotch plan more convenient., and had invariably left it to the residents to chooee their don chaplain. As part of the salary was de frayed by the voluntary contributions of the residents, it was desirable that they should, in the find instance, agree repo i the person who was to pi rform the duties (or them : a sum equal to that voted by the residents was then added by the government. lie had prepared a code of regulations founded on this principle; and while, on tt e one band, he wished to have the choice of the resident. be was desirous, on the other, that that choice should be backed toy proper ecclesiastical sanction as to the respectability of the person. Therefore, while the residents made the original choice, the confirmation of that choice by him, as Secretary of State, was made to depend on the approbation of the seclesiesticil au thority in this country the Bishop of London was the na turaeofficer to whom he had referred—and he had inserted in the regulations that the chaplain, being appointed by the Secretary of State, should elm have a lie- rise from the Bishop of London. Mr. Lowe had been appointed chaplain at Ma -1 deira. There arose long.continued disputes between him and the parishioner, beginning in the time of the former government, which ended in the residents ahsolutely refusing to vote him any salary whateve-. It was what was called the Puseyite question which arose in Madeira. (Great laughter.) They . had taken offence both at his preaching and his per forming of the service ; and on that account they refused to vote him any stipend. (Hear.) The Bishop of London was urged to admonish hint to endeavour to give greater sate. faction to the parishioners: he had been so admonished by himself (Lord Palmerston); but all endeavours to produce a reconciliation had failed. At last he bed felt it his dots to call upon the residents to choose another chaplain. They did so. He had appointed the person they chose, who was now their chaplain. A question arose as to recalling the license which the Bishop of London had granted ; and the bishop, acting no doubt from the most conscientious motives, and not agreeing that these ecclesiastical and spiritual differ ences afforded a sufficient ground tor removing Mr. Lowe, did not feel himself authorised to cancel the heelless which had been given. That license, however, was totally unne cessary for the purpose of enabling the chaplain by law to execute his functions. In his (Lord Palmerston's) view, and he had no doubt he was perfectly right, that license was merely an incident arising from, and dependent on, the sp. pointinent of the Secretary of State. Of course, he dis pensed with a fresh license for the new cheplain, inasmuch as the Bishop of London did not feel himself at liberty to grant a second license—(hear); and it was not his intention in future to raise again that unpleasant question of licenses. (Hear.) In appointing achaphun selected by the residents, he should satisfy himself that the individual was fit to perform the duties: but it was not his intention again to raise any question about the granting or withholding of licenses. (Hear, hear.) Mr. DISRAELI.—Are we clearly to understand the noble lord that he has recalled the chaplain who was li censed by the Bishop of London, and sent out a chaplain who was not licensed by the Bishop of London ? Viscount PALMERSTON.-1 have distinctly stated what is the case, and I have acted aecordiag to the power which the law confers upon me. (Hear, hear.) VAGRANTS AND CASUAL POOR. Mr. 0. J. HE ATIICOTE asked whether any measure was in contemplation for relieving parishes from the grievous burden occasioned by the influx of Irish vagrants and other casual poor ? Mr. C. BULLER said he had stated more than once this session that this subject was occupying his ver serious attention. He must crave the indulgence of the house for not being able to put it in immediate possession of the reme dies he proposed for an evil which he admitted to be of the greatest magnitude. (Hear, hear.) The period at which he bad taken the o ffi ce he bel l—the natural difficulties of con ducting the ordinary business of the office—the various ques tions of great magnitude which had occupied his attention — must plead his excuse fur not having produced those measures which, at a future day, he should bring before the house The hon. gentleman's statement with respect to the great increase of the evil of which be com plained was entirely in accordance with the representations and loud complaints which he (Mr. Buller) received from every part of the country. (Hear, hear.) The government and the legislature would be wanting in their duty if they did not interfere as far as possible to put down an evil which was so severely felt. (Hear.) He would not promise a mea sure which would at once remove an evil of such great ex tent, of long prow* and one in which every step taken created collision with feelings which ought to be respected. At the ammo time he looked to a gradual and speedy adop tion of measures which would greatly mitigate if not wholly remove, the evil. He had already prepared a bill on the sub ject of the charge of these vagrants, in reference to which he bad also received great complaints. In introducing it, which he should do immediately after the Whitsuntide recess, he would take the opportunity of stating the general course of action he should recommend to the authorities throughout the country, by means of which, coupled with the legislative measures he hoped to introduce, he trusted a great relief might be afforded, if not an entire remedy, for this evil. He should lose no time after Whitsuntide in bringing the matter forward. (Hear.) NEW SOUTH WALES. Mr. SCOTT asked whether a despatch had been addressed by Earl Grey to the Governor of New South Wales having THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, JUNE 10, 1848. reference ton new ontetltution for that colony, and if so, whether there was any objection to its being laid before parliament ? Mr, HAW ES said that, in the course of last year, inch a despatch had been addressed to the Governor of New South Wales, but it merely suggested that the opinion and &d -elve of the colonists should be obtained. The governor had published it in the government Gazette, and it had been made generally known. The opinion of the colonirs had been thus obtained ; and it would be extremely inconvenient now to lay that despatch on the table of the house, as its whole object was accomplished. No intention was conveyed of estabashing any constitution. A great deal of valuable information had been obtained, by which the government would be guided in laying on the table of the house, at some future time, a consti.ution for that colony. LAW OF SETTLEMENT. Mr. BANK E - Fwished to uk the right hon. gentleman at the head of the poor law commission what was the present state of the case which had been referred to the superior courts lung ago, with regard to the construction of the act fur the removal of the pour ? A great number of cases were pending throughout the kingdom; the at expired at the end of a year; and, if no decision were given this term, the act would probably expire before any was come to. Mr. BULLER said he wished he could answer the ques tion satisfactorily. He had heard nothing of the matter lately and, as the close of Trinity Term was approaching, should probably not hear any thing about it fur a long time. At the same time, it would he satisfactory to the house to know that, during his attendance in his present office, he, had not heard any complaints as to the doubts which had arisen respecting the construction of the Removal Act. This he attributed ve7 much to the act of last session, the re• newel of which, an some shape or other, he should have to being before the house at an early period. ENFRANCHISEMENT OF COPYHOLDS. In answer to Mr. AoLtonny, Sir G. GREY stated that a bill was beforo the other house for the compulsory enfranchisement of copyholdo. be lie had ne doubt it would proceeded with, but ciuld not state when it woulo be in that house. WEST INDIA COLONIES. . . Lord J. RUSSELL said, as he bad been requested by several hon. members to name the day on which he would bring before the house the subject of West India clistrem, he would take the opportunity of stating that on Friday, the 16th inst., he proposed to make a statement of the views of government regarding the distress in the West Indies ; and he might as well state that the first order ot the day on Thursday next would be the Public Health Bill. Mr. lIUME asked if there was any objection to postpone ' the departure of the mail to the Went Indies, to enable them to know what was really intended by . her Majesty's mini ver.? In the present state of anxiety in the V , est Indies, it was extremely desirable to make that arrangement. Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to say he would take care that that was done. Sir It. I'EE L —Does the noble lord intend to take a vote on Friday, or to state the general views of her Majesty's government ? Lord J. RUSSELL—I propose to make a statement on Friday, but not to take a vote on that day. NAVIGATION LAWS.—ADJOURNED DEBATE. Lord 0. BENTINCK craved the in ni gence of the house while he strove to remove some of the prejudice which bad been imported into the question by the hon. memb^r for Westbury (Mr. Wilson). The hon. gentleman might not have intended to libel the owners and captains of ships at Rho Jaeeiro • but he (Lord G. Bentinek) was in a position to contradic t statement, without any imputation on the veracity of the hon. member, in whom he had found every disposition to fairness while sitting with him for three months on the navigation committee. Ile had an extmetkom letter from the agents of one of those many A 1 ehips which the hon. member represented to be unable to obtain freights at Rio. That ship arrived there on the 10th or Iltli of March; and so far from being unab'e to Wain a cargo from the carelessness of the captain, Captain Young, three freights at 755., 775., and 80s., had been refused ; end dually the vessel left on the 4th of April, because foreign vessels were taking .57a. 6d. and 60a. She went to Bahia, and there obtained a good Iri ight. There were 12 or 14 British ships at Rio in March, all of which obtained freights but four; while there were eight foreign ships which did not get freight', two of them Americans, although the American captains resorted to means for obtaining (nights which were sot held con•istent with honour an , l honesty by Englishmen. (Hear ) The txplanstion of the whole thing appeared to be that somebody wished to practise a joke on the hon, membet for Westbury ; for the letter on which he relied was dated the Ist of April. (Laughter.) lie held in his hand a letter from Meese's. Le Breton and Co., the well-known agents. who stated that there was a great want of ships at Bahia, where 22,000 packages of sugar were waiting tar shipmeut, and freights ranged from Ws. to 90s. and even 955. Out English captains would certainly have been great fools to take freights at Rio for 575. 6d. at the came ewe as the icireign vessels, when they could run to Bahia, and get there 80s. sr 91)e. (Hear.) The right hon. the President of the Board at Trade had declared his belief that no risk would arise to British maritime in•ereits or to the British navy from the repeal of the navigat on laws; other wise, he said, he would sooner cut off his right arm than lay those resolutions on the table. Ile had gone into a statement to show, comparing 1827 with 1846, that the British mereanole marine hail increased 44 per cent, beyond that of the United State.. In the tact, be had adduced he was utterly mistaken ; he had also lett en tirely out of view that in measuring the increase of British tonnage, he estimated it by the new measure introduced by the late Lord Sydenhem, wh ch added 15 to 25 per cent, to the tonnage, making the ship which measured 400 tons, under the old law, to measure nearly 500 under the new. (Hear, hear.) But the tonnage of the United States ships had remained the name, and the accounted f a much of the appoeut increase. (It. ar, hear.) lie had stated that •he tonnage ot British ships had increased 'roan 2,460,500 tons in 1826 to 3,817,112 tons in 1847. Making allowance for the new measure, this last amount would have to be re duced by 20 per centeeducing the actual increase to 3,0.53,690 tonseir au increase of only 24, nut of 44, per cent. (Hear.) He would not quarrel with the right hon. gentlexan that he 'elected a different period of the year for the shipping of the United States from that which he took for British ships, that be took the year ending the 30th of Juno, 1816, tor American ships, and the end of the year for British ships, when there was a great increase of ships. ( Hear, hear.) Had the right hon. gentleman taken a year later it would have made a difference of 11 per cent ; for in the year end ing June, 1847, the tonnage of American ships amounted to 2,760,961 toes. (Hear, hear.) But taking his own figures the United States shins increased between 1927 and the present time from 1,620,607 tons to 2,562.084, being an increase of 941,477 toes; being an increase of 58 per cent. (Hear, hear.) How, therefore, the right hon. gentleman could make out that the increase of the shipping of the United States was only 44 per cent., he was not able to understand. The truth was that he mea sured the American shipping by a short measure, and British shipping by a long measure. American shipping bad increased 58 per cent., whilst English shipping had increased only 24 per cent. Therefore he maixtained that British merchants and Briti.h seamen, without any pusillanimity or any want of energy and enterprise, had reason to fear the rivalry of the United States if they were to be admitted to a r participation in their colonial trade. (Hear, hear.) And that he might not be supposed to have stated on light grounds the difference between the old and new measure ment, he would read to the house the result of a measure ment ot five ships belonging to Mr. Chapman of L:verpool. Under the old scale those ships measured 3,928 tons, under the new, 4,768; being a difference of 840 tuns in five ships, created by act of parliament. Some ships belonging to Mr. Bold of Liverpool measured under the old scale 2,974 tons ; under the new, 3 508 matting together an increase of over 20 per cent. by act of parliament. (Hear.) Ile world now read to the house, from the American Alma nai k, a return of the ships of the United States which trailed with the British empire. Their tonnage in 1846, was 1,360,374, whilst that of Great Britain and her colonies in the same period, amounted to only 801,321 tuns. lie would, therefore, leave those who were engaged in trade with the British West Indies to ask what benefit they were likely to derive from a repeal of the navigation laws ? The inter-colo nial trade had grown to its present extent only within the last 24 years. and whilst there were ships belonging to the United States with a tonnage of 124,135 tons engaged in that trade, the tonnage of British ships was only 23.324. Let them see how the matter stood with respect to Cuba and the Spaaieli West Indies. In 1846, the United States had ships wit 7. a tonnage of 208,189 tons engaged in the trade with)the Spanish colonies, whilst the tonnage of foreign ships was only 3,891, and the value of the merchandise carried in American ships, was 2,500,000, whilst that carried in foreign ships was only '27,000. Therefore, when the United States made a proposition to divide the colonial trade with England, they could judge pretty well liom those facts that she expected to get the largest share of the spoil. (Hear.) He was at a for to learn any just grounds for making a change in the navigation laws. He was aware that in the absence of any other petitions a great dish had been made of petitions from C.,nada and the British West Incdb s for an alteration of the navigation laws. lie was aware that in a moment of excitement, when the colonists were suffering from the effects of their free trade meaoires, they, like drowning men catching at straws, did ask for a repeal of thou laws. But within one or two days he had received an extract of a letter, dated the 16th March, signed by the pre sident of the Chamber of Commerce of Kingston, one of those persons who six or twelve months ago signed the peti tion, in which the writer stated that he was inclined to agree with Lord G. Bentinck, that a repeal of the navigation laws was calculated to confer as much benefit on their opponents as on the colonists, with this difference in favour of Cuba, that she being possessed of slave labour could ensure regularity in the crop, and consequently . would not have any delay in freighting vessels; when= In Jamaica the vessel; might be detained for months before a cargo would be ready. The noble lord then read a lettaraddreseed to Mr. J. Cooke, a broker in the City, in which it was ended that there were American vessels in the river with 16,927 boxes of Cuba sugar, and that it was 21. per cwt. cheaper in conse quence of being brought in foreign vessels; but in conse quence of the navigation laws it was not admissible into this country. let those colonists who were foolish enough to pe tition for the repeal of the navigation laws be aware then that they would have 16,900 more boxes of Cuba sugar in the market, and Is. lower in price than they could afford to cell it. (Hear) The noble lord then referred to the evidence of Mr. J. Wilson, of Sunderland, before the Lords' committee, who was in favour of the repeal of the navigation laws, but admitted that the West Indian colonists would not get freight ' cheaper, whilst OM sugar could be told from 54. to 64. cheaper in the market; and observed that if, under these cir cumstances, the colonists were in favour of the repeal of the navigation laws, they deserved their fate. The right bon. gentleman made a great deal of the petition from the City of London, but, with the exception of the names of the Governor and De puty-Governor of the Bank of England, there were no names of any groat importance attached to it. One of the members for East Somersetehire was so struck with the leaguer of that petition, that it induced him to give his vote with the government—end no wonder, if he believed what it contained. (Hear, hear.) If the repeal of the navi gation laws had the effect of pumping the ocean dry--of saving the nation, in some 200 years, 800,000,0001. in the employment of the poor, besides 100,000,0001. which was now spent in the prevention of crime—all of which wag promised by the petition from the City of London—those who opposed their repeal had a great deal to answer for is. deed. (Laughter.) He did not see the noble lord the mem ber few Windsor (Lord .1. Hey) in his place. That noble lord jollied in the clamour raised against the captains, mates, end seamen of the British nit rehant service, and bore testi. mony to the frequency of the dispute's between the tins and the men. The noble lord was to swear to every statement contained in the reports of the consuls, forgetting haw contradictory thou statements were in themselves. Wiping some of tie consul. spoke of British seamen as most brutal, Mr. Brooker, of Cronstadt, and Mr. Mac.gregor, of Elsineur, bore testimony to their goad conduct. (Near.) The charges that were made against them were owing to the letter of Mr. Murray, which applied to only one side of the question. (Hear.) The right hoe, gentlemen the memb , r for the University of Oxford made an ingenious speech on the present cqm stion, and not having heard the first sentence ofthat speech, in which he said he intended to support the government, hut having heard the res t of it, he cont.-wit that ha end,: hardly believe that he was not speaking on has (Lerd G. Bei tinck's) side. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) lie was surprieed to hear the right hon. gentleman say that recipe oity was the rule of action in tide country. Why, were they not of late going hand over head without bargain ing for reciprocity ? What was the act of 1816, hut free trade without reciprocity ? (Cheers.) The rulel It was, indeed, the good old rule in ether dime, but it was ehandoned in 1846, and 021 y were now reaping the dire consequences in a ruined trade and a starving people. (Hear, hear ) The right hon. gentleman said teat with regard to steam the petition of the British marine was unapproachable. He would show the right hon. gentleman that he laboured under • mistake iii this respect, as he did with regard to the price of silk and timber. The number of registered steam-vin eta built in the United Kingitom in the year 1546 was 77 of 15,000 tons; the registered num her built in pH? was 103 of 16 000 bins. He had a return of the United States steamship., by which he founii that 103 steamers were built in 1814 ; 163 in 1845 ; 235 in 1810 ; 198 in 1847. He was not able to star their tonnage, because they were sized up with other vessels; but in four years they built 693 steamers, mid 3 118 mailing vessels, which measured 613,929 tons. In 1817 twelve live-geing steam ships, measuring 16,288 tone, were built in New York. a numeer of tons easeeding the united tonnage of all the steam chile of the United Kit gdom. Daring the present year there were eighteen such boats, measuring 23,000 tons and upwards in course ut building. What then did the member fur the University mean whoa he talked of this counter h peg unapproachable in respect of her seagoing vessel.? (liner, hear.) 'f he member for Manchester alleged that he (Lord G. Beane k) bed charged him per sonally with a freud in the preparation of certain returns laid on the table by command of her Majesty. It must have been some other monitor—pokey, that "conscience which made cowards of us all"—which made the right hon. gen. dentin imagine he bad said inything of the kind. Having instructed Mr. Porter to put the Queen's name to a return which wes since admitted to he false, the right hon. gentle men no doubt telt some quints upon the subject. The right hon. gentleman had since, indeed, end d t bolster up the return ; hut Mr. Porter, on his oath before the House of Lends, declared that be made the return by order of the late Vice-President of the Board of Trade, and that he knew the terms " protected" and " unprotected" were wrong. Of course every one who knew anything of the subject knew it to be wrong; but the free-trade party and the free-trade newspapers tar weeks end weeks made use of a return which its very author. new acknowledged to be deceitful. (Cries of " N r," and hear.) Mr. M. GI LISON —Read Ise evidence. Mr. Porter never acknowledged the return to be wrong. Lord G. BENTINCK contended that he did. He ad mitted that China ought not to be in the return, and that other countries ought not to be included in it, and if so, was not the return deceitful and fallacious? (Cheers.) Then look at the description of the trade with France. One steam- boat, the Prinoe Ernest, of no more than 95 tons, was calculate d at many thousand tons, because she bed made 14.5 tripe. Why, at this rate, the halfpenny steam-boats on the river would represent more tonnage than ell the *hirer engaged in our commerce with America put toge ther. Ile held in his hand a statement of our trade with other countries, fairly compiled, end showing only those coun tries the trade with which was really protected or unpro• tected. The result wee this, that the really bon,: fide Pro. tected trade had advanced 14:1 per cent., whilst the mire. ti eted trade bad nnly advanced 9 . 1 per cent. Did not that prove that a fraud, by means of Mr. Peeler's return, had been committed on tee country These were the tricks the Board of Trade continually hod recourse to.to try and sway the legis lature of the country. The member fer Manchester said the clamour fur the suspension of the navigation laws came from that (the opposition) aide of the house What would not the free trade party say next ? The right hon. gentleman talked of " clamour." Why, he thought the rivht bon. gentleman had been wafted into office by clamour—(hear, hear) —that, after running away from Suffolk, free trade clamour found him •s at for the place he now represented. (Cheers.) Surely the right hon. gentleman was ungrateful. Then the learned doctor the member for Bolton (Dr. Bowring) talked of the " iron hand of competition," which wan to do so much good to the shipowners. Ile used to talk about the "free and invigorating air of free trade," but now he talked of the "iron hand of competition." Yes, it was, indeed, • right description—the "iron hand of competition. It was the " iron hand of competition" that had doubled the pauperism of this country, and that had ruined her colonial dependen cies. It wee the " iron hand of competition", that had re duced the price of lined at Stockport from nine farthings to seven farthings a pound, and had increased the paupers in that town from 5,500 to 25,000. (Loud protectionist cheers.) There had been • committee up stairs which had brought the truth out at last. That committee, on weighing the evidence adduced before them, had declared that the opera tion of freedrade principles had materieliy diminished the wages of labour. The next time the right hon. gentleman the member for Manchester went down to that town let the operatives of that town take him by the button and beg him to explain what difference there was between protection for sugar and protection for any other articles ? The mesh. r for South Lancashire said no one would be bold enough to say that cheap corn meant cheap wages. Ile (Lord G. Bentiock) remembered when the member for Ripon (Sir J. Graham) declared that such was its meaning in • celebrated pamphlet, and certainly experience proved that he was right. In Manchester pen. perism had Isere ,sad fearfully. Would any one desire to adopt the principle of free trade any further in the face of such experience ? Surely, if ever there was a time to stop it it was now. (Hear, hear.) Would they venture to put another great interest of forty millions or more into the free-trade crucible toles what would come up? The learned member for Bolton talked of the masters and mates of our merchant service, and said we ought to examine somewhat more closely before we appointed them. He (Lord G. See -1 tinck) thought the mutters and metes, recollecting the cost to the nation of Dr. Bowring's pleasure-trip through the continent, might fairly retort, and might suggest that we ought to examine our diplomatists somewhat more carefully before we appointed them. The learned gentleman's reports had turned out anything but correct. He had predicted a great reduction in the duties of the Zollverein if we adopted a moderate tariff. The learned gentleman in those days never asked for free trade. A small fixed duty was all that great philosopher desired at that time. Well, the government of Sir Robert Peel adopted free-trade principles. Did the Zollverein reduce their duties ? On the contrary, the minister was so incensed et the demands of Prumia that he threatened that power with retaliatory messeres. The learned member for Bolton, therefore the paid commissioner of free trade—had misinformed and misled his coot trymen. As to America, he del not undervalue the power of that country, but he saw no reason why we should truckle to her, or give her so large and import int a portion of our car rying trade, exacting no equivalent concession whatever. Of the Cuba carrying trade, of which Great Britain now pee sewed seven-eighths. America, if this measure passed, would very speedily enjoy the entire monopoly, as she would of that of Port Rico. He did not say that shipping could flou rish without ships ; but when the Manchester people talked of the dependence of ships upon manufactures, he begged to ask them how manufacturers could proceed without -Ships— how they could, without ships, import their raw material, or how, without ships, export their completed fabrics? The manufacturing reformers over the way talked of cutting down some 17 millions of the expenditure upon our army and upon our navy ? Did they reflect that if they destroyed our mer cantile marine, they must, if they desired to keep the country preperly protected against the chance of invasion, make a large addition to our navy and consequently to our expenditure ? Mr. HUME denied that the object of those who advocated the present measure was in any way to injure the commer• cial marine of this country. On the contrary, it was their earnest desire rather to improve the condition of that ser vice than to deteriorate it. The hon. member vindicated the hon. member for Dolton from the depreciating estimate which the noble member for Lynn sought to impress upon the house with reference to the bon. member's public ser vices. He considered that no reports in the library of the house contained more valuable matter than those of the hon. and learned member were replete with. As to the sneer of the noble lord about the hon. and learned member's predic tions, the noble lord, had he well considered the sub ject, would have found reason, in all probability, to believe that if the landed interest had assented in time to a moderate fixed duty on corn , as en equivalent for canoeosions on the part of foreign powers, that interest might have secured that moderate duty, instead of having been c ompelled to submit to no duty at ail. (Hear, hear.) As to the distress of the country, great as it unhappily was, it would have been fearfully aggravated but for the relaxations which the advocates of free trade bad effected. (Hear, hear.) The charges made by the noble lord against Mr. Porter's statistics were altegether unfounded ; he (Mr. Hume) had given the subject of those statistics his most careful Wen lion, and he was perfectly convinced of the securely of Mr. Porter's returns. The noble toed asked, for what purpose was this change proposed It was proposed and supported for the purpose of giving effect to those measures of free trade which had been with such difficulty carried, and which re quired, for their full and satisfactory development, the re moval of the restrictions imposed by the navigation laws. The noble lord spoke of the lons to the trade of this country of several hundred whaling vessels. Was it free trade which had driven these ships from England to America? No ; but the infinite restrictions which it was now proposed to remove. (lieu, hear.) He had every expectation, however, that a l arge proportion of this trade, under the change of system, would return to us. (Hear, hear.) One ground on whi ch our protectionist shipowners set up a claim to monopoly war the coat of shipbuilding ; but it was these same shipowner who bad resisted a reduction in the timber duties. Anoti er ground used to be the cost of vi t> tualling ; but this ground was now removed, and our ship could be victualled as cheaply as those of any other country. lie avowed there was scarcely any particular, since the re cent changes in our tariff, in which we were not as advanta geously situated as was the foreign shipowner, and there were many respects in which we had decidedly superior facilities for fitting out ships. The evidence of Sir James Stirling had been spoken of as hasty, incomplete, and incor rect ; he bad closely followed Sir James Stirling's evidence, from a sole desire fur information, and he felt bound to de clare his conviction that the entire of that evidence was well considered, judicious, end scrupulously accurate in its details. It was to him a matter of great surprise that burdened as English ships were they had been able to compete with foreigners. But once let the existing impediment, be re moved and the impulse given to British enterprise—both commercial and maritime industry would be increased in a tenfold degree. For all these reasons he should support the - „ reso utMns. Admiral BOWLES, as an officer of the navy, feared the house was legislating rashly, and that befure long the country would repent it. Mr. COBDEN said he should not follow the noble lord in his arguments as to free trade generally. Ile and the noble lord started from two entirely different points. The noh'e lord is as for protesting the few at the expense of the many, whilst he was not for taxing any class at all. All he would say of free trade was, that the country was satisfied with it as far as it went. lie did not say satisfied with the present state of commerce, hut that was attributable to quite different Musts. The legislature having dealt with free trade in corn, sugar, and other articles of first necessity now approached the'shipping; and how, Int him ask, could the partial protec tion now given to this branch of industry be justified ? If he had been strong in his arguments against protection to corn, he was doubly so in respect to ships. The agriculturists urged the excessive burdens on land and on their productive sources. The shipowner lied no such burdens. The sailor got all his articles of consumption duly free, and ships paid neither county nor poor rates, nor amused taxes. They were, therefore, in a better condition to compete with the foreigner than the English landowner. But they must go into the principle of free trade. What did 4 meant If it meant anythiug, it was the importation of a hooter quantity of commodities into the country—corn, for instance. But they could not move a quarter of corn from abroad without resorting to shipping; therefore, the increased importation of corn must increase the number of ships. Then, again, it was said that than who built the ships could not compete with the foreigner in point of cheapness. But it had been satisfactorily proved that taking quality for quality a ship could be built and rigged more cheaply in England than abroad. He did not speak of the American ships which were on Lloyd's register for four years only, but of such ships as stood their ground on the register for 12 years. People talked of a ship as if, like a box, it was made of wood only. Why when the wood work of the ship was complete half the outlay only was made. The rigging, sails, anchors, cables, and stores all were to be added, and they were to be had at a 'ar cheaper rate in England than anywhere else. There was the evidence of the impeder of Lloyd's at Sunder land to refer to on this point, who stated that a ship could he built of Dantzic oak and equipped cheaper at that port than at Dant zic ; and when he was at that place he had liked a merchant there if this was true which he was informed was the case. (Hear.) The ques tion of wages was another element to be Wien into consider ation. The American workman got more wages, it was true, but then he worked more hours, and hi. skill was superior to the Enelisti artisan, therefore, though he cot more money, the American shipbuilder did not pay him more in proportion to the value of his work than the Euglish shipowner. It was also said, and truly he believed, that the American ships performed their voyages mere quickly than English ones, and that the English masters of vessels did not take so much care of their cargoes as foreign shipmasters did. That certainly did present a difficulty, but it was to be overcome. Let him take into consideration the characters of the English masters and the seamen of which so much had been said and written. He could not say anything of his own knowledge on this subject, but both Mr. 0. F. Young and the late Mr. Sosmes, had stated that English eeamen were very disorderly. Mr. Brooker, the English vice-consul at Cronatadt, who had resided at that port for 59 years, also told him in September last, that in the July previous he had had no less than 61 squabbles between masters and seamen of English vessels to settle in his counting-bouse ; and he showed him a circular, issued ie July, 1817,b, the governor of the town, warning the English seamen against the con sequences of their riotous, drunken, avid violent behaviour, and of the serious consequences of striking a police soldier. Therefore it most be taken for granted that Mr. Brooker had confirmed the statements m de :expecting the conduct of English seamen in foreign ports. lie had never accused that clips of being given to robbery, but the question was, were they ineuberdinate and given to drink when in foreign ports, and he believed they were. Was it therefore wise to lavi.h compliments and praises on them in that house, instead of telling them of their (sults? From the evidence he had read, he was led to believe that the Englith seamen were more addicted to drink than the sailors in the Meditioranean ports; that they were less qualified in point of education and information than the seamen of the northern perte, and that in both these particulars they were inferior to the American sailors. The best way, therefore, to serve them was to tell them of their faults, and so to amend them. But with all his faults the British Bailor was possessed of natural qualifications which rendered him superior in the hour of danger or difficulty to the seamen of other nations. His courage, re omptnesa, and presence of mind during a gale or under unexpected circum stances, were such that if his moral qualities could only be mode to equal his mental end physical powers, he would be able to compete with the best sailors of the best nations. He did not wish to have protection removed from British shipping for the purpose of reducing the wages of the sailors. Give them the same qualities as were possessed by the Ame ricans, and they would make better voyages, and conse quently be cheaper at higher wages than they now were. Rot the goes' ion the house had to consider was whether they would continue to lay a prohibition on the carriage of commodities from foreign countries. The manufacturers were entitled to get their supplies in the cheapest way they cou'd, whereas the operation of the navigation laws was to prohibit the free importation even of manure, for if bones or oilcake same in certain vessels they were not allowed to enter English ports for consumption. The farmers' friends ought, therefore, to do away with these restrictions. He bad, he confessed, been much surprised by the noble lord's attack on his friend Mr. Porter's statistics ; for if there was one department in which the public had con fidence it was in that presided over by Mr. Porter, whose return, so much cavilled at, was entitled to the utmost credit for its accuracy. But the cause for this attack must be looked for in the feet that no statistics could be found to favour the protective system. lie was prepared even to go so far as to say if the English ships cannot compete in the market with foreign ships let the latter have all the trade. The cheapest market was the best. But let him not be mistaken on this point. lie believed that Englishmen were better fitted to be sailors than any other nation on earth. England was great in her manufactures, but she was greater in her maritime adventure. What the camel was to the Arab of the desert, or the horse to the Tartar, the ship was to the Englishman. It had been urged that there were very few petitions in favour of abolishing the navigation laws. The same was true of petitions in their favour, only 25,000 having"petitioned out of 1,500,000 sailors who were to be thrown out of bread by their abolition. The true reason why petitions against the navigation laws had not been presented was, that those laws were included by the millions who had petitioned for free trade in that policy Ile should be glad to see a navigation act pas'ed as short as that made by Lord Dalhousie for India, which consisted of four lines. He, however, preferred the proposed measure to that suggested by the right hon. gentleman, the member for Ox ford, who wished to have one framed on the basis of , reciprocity. The right hon. gentleman ought to remember that reciprocity was already promised on the part of America and Prussia. Now, sue word as to the naval part of the question. He heard with regret the constant reference made to physical-force arguments which were so much con demned when urged by the working classes. (Oh.) Ile must say he heard with regret the boasting language re specting England's naval supremacy. He must say that those Acosta were generally uttered after dinner, and there fore they might be the result of a little extra excitement. ("Oh," and groans.) The abolition of the navigation laws would not affect the naval condition of Great Britain. But was this a time to be always singing " Rule Britannia." (" Hear, hear," and laughter.) If hon. members opposite had served with him upon the committee on the army, navy, and ordnance estimates, they would have a just sense of the cost of that song. (Hear, hear) His right hon. friecd the member for Manchester (Mr. H. Gibean) had, in the course of the discussion, been a good deal attacked for the sentiment with which he concluded his speech the other night. In that sentiment he (Mr. Cobden) entirely sympathised. His right hon. friend had not asserted, as had been supposed, that this country was about to enter upon the millennium of universal peace; but he stated that they should treat wars as the normal state of this country. His right hon. friend bad con tended, and he (Mr. Cobden) &treed with him, that this country was in favour of peace ; and if this was doubted, let but a word be said in this house to indicate that they were going to war, and then the full force of public opinion against it would be felt. (Hear, hear.) The con stant assertion of warlike maritime supremacy was calcu lated to provoke kindred passions in other nations, while, if I Great Britain announced the doctrines of peace, she would invoke similar sentiments from the rest of the world. With (kis view he was anxious, while prepared to maintain every Just right for the English people, to identify this nation with pam, and. by removing the obstacles which the navigation laws presented to free trade and freedom of intercourse be. tween nations, to blend cations together in interest, and ' thereby place one of the most potential obstacles in the way of war. (Hear, hear.) Mr. DISRAELI said the noble lord the first minister of the crown bad been accustomed sometimes to teach those who attempted to defend the cause of protection—a cause which he (Mr. Disraeli) and those near him had not jet deserted—that they were reasoning in a vicious circle. The noble lordhod used to say that if the interests they hadformerly advocated, operated to the injury of another interest, that other interest might, in its turn, by some exceptionable le gislation, operate to the cost of its neighbours, and thus, as the noble lord well expressed it, they were moving in a vicious circle. Interest after interest had received the ad vantages, of exceptional legislation; but the result was that the multitude had been injured. The house was now placed in a new vicious circle. In this debate new interests had been attacked, and it was said that, as every other interest had been injured, they must go round the vicious circle, and that, after having pursued a course of theoretical legisla tion, which had terminated in so much practical misery, it would be against reason, j ustice , candour, and fairness, not to deal out to every other interest the same merciful iaterpo sition which had produced such beneficent results. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) The hon. gentleman who had, just addressed the house (Mr. Cobden) had 7 been the principal author of the first rick) circle ; but for him that thesis would nev er h ave bee: adopted by • minister or accepted by a party, (hear, hear,) and yet at the end of two years the hon. gentleman had to-night again, to rise in his place, and become the advocate of a new vicious circle. (Hear, bear.) Before the hon, gentleman had promised the house and the country per ' petual advantages—now he said that it was but just that all should take their share in the universal diluter. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the unfortunate inter est now under ' discussion before an assembly called together to watc h over the interests and to guard the rights of Englishmen—with regard to the new victim, he must say that if this question involved an inquiry into the comparative expense of build ing ships at Stettin and at Sunderland—he should consider that he should himself be guilty of an set of the utmost assumption if be offered au opinion on that subject. Though he had paid constant attention to the course of the debate, he had studied with as much power of *boric tion as he could command, the evidence which hal been offered to the two houses of parliament, and still he felt if he offered an opinion as to the relative prices of cordage and sailcloth it would be an act of arrogance which he would not assume. Ile therefore left all these deductions from the evidence to the hon. member for the West !tiding (Mr. Cobden), for be thought that even the house itself woe Cot exactly a tribunal competent to decide with satisfaction upon ouch a topic. In such a matter the hon. member (Mr. Cobden) had immense advantages, because he was the .6 ad of Mr. Brunton, who had personal experience of the cost of building ships at Stettin and at Sunderland, and had Rotted that he had no fear of competition with the ports of the Baltic. lie (Mr. Disraeli) bowed with great respect to the opinions of that gentleman ; but as be had been quoted, b e (Mr. Disraeli) must refer to an opinion expre sod by M e Brunton within the last few hours. At a meeting held at the exchange of Sunderland on the subject of the navigation laws, Mr. Brunton was the principal motor, and had moved one of the resolutions adopted by the meeting. In the course of his speech be attacked the evidence given by a Mr. Wilson (mit the hon. member for Westbury), upon whom he did not charge falsehood, but adopted a milder term—(ti laugh) —sod then he was pleased to state that the repeal of the navigatiort Isms would reduce property 30 to 40 per mot., and would drive obi , building out of the country, and inflict equal injury upon artisans, builders, and owners. lie added that, by the co-operation of all, means would be found to defeat the p'an of the government. Mr. Brunton sat down amidst load cheers, proposing a resolution to the effect that, if the measure of the government was carried, it would be fatal to Wilde", owners, and artisans, and calling upon all those favourabie to native industry to rally round those dames at the present moment. He (Mr. Disraeli) thought it but tight that he should thus furnish to the house the last opinion which Mr. Brunton had given on this very subject. (Hear, hear.) Be fore he (Mr. Disraeli) entered upon the general question, he could not help noticing some of the observations made by the hon. member for the West Riding respecting the commercial marine of this country. He Lad heard wits r. gret his remarks upon the character of tile seamen and captains. In all closes—in all modes of employment—there must be some troublesome fellows, from whose conduct it would be hard and unjust to judge a whole race. It ought to be no evidence against the system under which they were edu c tried, and under which they were employed. Now he (Mr. Disraeli) had before him some evidence of the conduct of Englishmen not employed on board ship, but in an institu tion which was scarcely less inferior in national importance. A. gentleman well known to hon. members oppu.site—Mr. John Brooks, of Manchester—had been examined before the navigation committee, and, in answer to a question put by the hon. member for Westmoreland (Mr. Alderman 1 hemp ion), this witness seemed to think that it was because crews were &flossed to consist of one-fourth of foreigners, and three-fourths of British seamen, they could net agree. But Mr. Brooks, with more candour than the honour. able member for the West Riding, had spoken of his management of his men in Lancashire—that was to say his own men employed in his own mill. Mr. Brooks was well known to possess a knowledge of the Lancashire cha racter—indeed he himself was remarkable in a crowd, (Laughter.) But, speaking of the management of his own men, he said, " I have fought several battles with my men —there are some of them called ' and some ' knob sticks'—(loud laughter)—and I have been obliged to have sixty withers and three officers in my mill for nine months together to keep them in order, for, when mixed together, the men would not agree." (Hear, hear.) Now it would be quite as just for him (Mr. Disraeli) to bring this evi dence forward as a proof against the character of the whole of the working classes of the most favoured district of the co. ntry, an for the hon. member for the %Vest Riding (Mr. C den) to condemn the seamen in the commercial m..• fie on the isolated instances of undisciplineel and nor sly conduct which might be alleged against portions of that body. lie therefore dismissed this part of tne case. sVith respect to the allegation, that the coasting trade would be protected by the ignorance of the net ye tongue of foreigners, he begged to state that no man was allowed to command a Swedish or Norwegian ship who was not master of the English language. (Hear, hear.) The question now before the house he understood to be a proposition ce, the part of the government to abrogate an ancient national m um with respect to navigation—a system founded upon definite principles, and aiming to arrive at definite ends; and if he could show that the principles of that system were an actual advantage to the country, and beneficent to the state, then the question of the ability or inability of British shipbuilders to enter into competition with foreigners will not an element for argument on this occasion. He was there to advocate the present system, which he maintained had worked with great advantage to the state, and to do this he bad but to make evident that the arguments against that system were utterly unsubstan tial and fallacious. (Hear, hear.) In the first place, it had been said that England was not protected in her export trade, and therefore it wits asked why it was necessary she should be protected in her import trade? He denied that this country competed with succor with the foreigner in the export trade. No member for Liverpool, or merchant of that town, would venture to assert this, but, on the con trary, must admit that practically the export trade was in the hands of foreigners. (Hear, hear.) Beery one knew that if a large order was given from America for iron, they mode it a condition that it should be e or i tro hadelinbetomgeriiven f can srhionistheMFirthenicnhagdaovymocinstenwtofoar larg e; and it was a condition of the contract that it should be ex ported in French ships. (Hear, hear.) He blarnod not the American or French governments for this; but hearing it said that we were not protected in the export trade, and yet competed with so much ability, and knowing that there were no authentic documents to guide tha house en tho subject, I he was obliged to ask for the evidence, and in the want of it to avail himself of the information which was open to eve q. body; and he could not help arriving at a conclusion totally different to that of those who were the promulgators of this opinion. (Hear.) It had been said that England could compete in an open market with any state, and that while we were trembling before competition on the Thames, in the most celebrated ports of South America and the Adriatic—Rio and Trieste—English shipping carried everything before it. He accepted the test, so ostentatiously offered, and would show how utterly unfounded and fallacious was the founda tion of the principal arguments which had been offered throughout these debates. He had • return from Rio for I 1847 ' which had been given on oath before the Lords' com mittee. It showed that in that year 655 ships, amounting to 198,000 tons, had cleared from Rio with cargoes ; of these the British tonnage was 32,000 tons, (mien more than 166,000 tons. Of the British tonnage 15,000 tons cleared for our colonies, so they were out of the category; there re mained something more than 16,000 tons for foreign parts . Of the foreign tonnage 68,000 was American. 15,000 Brazilian, 13,000 Danish, 14,000 Swedish, 13,000 Hamburg. 11,000 Portuguese, 10,000 French, 7,000 Sardis nian, and 6,000 Belgian. So that out of a tonnage of nearly 200,000 tons from the port of Rio, British shipping only ' commanded 16,000 tone. (Hear.) How was it possible, in the face of such a document as that, to pretend that British shipping carried everything before it, and competed success , fully in open ports with all nations of the world. He had a return from Trieste, not of very recent date, but he was informed by a house having extensive commercial tranasc lions there, that the relative proportions of shipping were still much the same. Analysing the trade of 14 countries with Trieste, be found that in seven of them—the United States, Marseilles, Bordeaux, Spain, Hamburg, Holland, and Sweden—not a single British vetted was employed in conducting the commerce between those countries and Trieste; that in five others, Not way, Cuba, Por tugal, our own possessions at Gibraltar and Malta, and St. Domingo, sometimes one, in other cases two British vessels weer, employed; and that only to Brazil was there a large majority of British shipping. (Hear.) Re co letting that England exported to Brazil four millions sterling per annum, and received from Brazil only one million, it was quite clear that the ships which took out the four millions must be chartered to pay_ for the three extra millions to other ports; the port of Trieste attracted this great part of our traffic ; so that in fact these three millions which the Brazils did not pay us for were drawn by the course of commercial transactions from the port of Trieste. So much for the two great cases, which had been appealed to in this debate with so much triumph and with so little foundation. (Hear.) The hon. member for Westbury (Mr. J. Wilson), the great champion of the virtues of competition, had stated, 0 thew the immense advantage of relaxation, that from 1817 to 1823, British shipping was not only stationary but absolutely in decline—the tonnage having fallen off from 2,600,000 to 2,500,000, notwithstand ing the increase of population and of imposts ; and that the moment the reciprocity act was passed, which was a consider able approach to the principles of free trade, there was a rapid improvement in British shipOlon. But the hon. gen tleman forgot that, though the el .te - of the reciprocity act was 1823, no increase whatever took place In the tonnage of our mercantile marine till 1830 ; and that it was only in 1834 that it had arrived at the same amount as it exhibited in 1817-2,600,000 tons, twenty years after the peace, and eleven years after the boasted reciprocity act. (Hear.) This w. a a speech made by one who was called a muter of the subject, one of those speeches which influenced public opinion, effected revolutions, altered tariffs, and changed ministries. (Hear, and laughter.) It was impossible to draw conclusions more at variance in every respect with the facts. In alluding to the trade of this country and other countries, before the reciprocity act, the hon. gentleman bad taken great care not to give the name of a single country , o r the date of a single treaty. The date of the reciprocity treaty with Russia was only in 1843 ; but our commerce with that country had increased from 200,000 tons in 1824 to more than 400,000 tons in 1846—an increase owing to 19 years of that monopoly which the hon. gentleman denounced. He had represented the whole British trade as having increased from 3,290,000 tons in 1824 to 8S millions in 1846; but to obtain the second amount the hon. gentleman had taken the clearings inwards and outwards, and added them together, while in the first he had studionily separated them. ',Hear, hear.) Who could resist the boldness of such evidence as that? (Laughter.) But this was the evidence which for many years had governed England, which, brought forward