The Express. — London, England, 1847-04-30 00:00:00

• IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. The Lots 1 HOUSE OF LORDS.—Tau9 3 9.a, APRIL 29. looNcaLLos took kis seat ot 5 o'clock. PUBLIC BUSINESS. —Poor SAW (Ire end); Landed homey Fatdee (IThead); Prisons (Ire. AWL PAUPERS IN LIVERPOOL.-THE BANK SECONDRM IraWmti:Nds. RESTRICTION AOT. Lord BROUGHAM, in promoting the petition from . Liverpool stated that 180,0 0 0 poepert had arrived in Liver pool within the last six months, of whom 103,000 had roe maned is Liverpool. Ho wished to ask the noble lord opposite (the Marquis of Lowdown) whether it was the in . beetles of government to do anything to relieve the premiere felt in the money market, especially by t h ose in the menu lecturing distracts, who were thereby prevented from executing their orders. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was understood to say, that while lamenting the existing pressure, the government wtre not prepared to propose any alteration of the Bank Restriction Act. Afier a few words from Lord ASH BURTON, Lord MONT HS. a LE. and the Earl of Wicxeow, the Marquis of Weer mourn said the legislature might pass all the pour laws us the world, but so long as there was an oppressed class in Ireland, the evils of that country would never cease, nor would a single advance be made towards improving the condition of the country. POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said it now became his duty, on the part of her Majesty's government, to propose to their lordships to give a second reading to a bill far extend leg relief to the poor of Ireland, and in requesting their lord ships to proceed with this bill through it. several stages, he was deeply sensible that he was inviting them to follow him in a path which was beset with difficulties and danger*. Corupelled by circumstances which had existed far some time, they were about to embark on a navigation in which, though it was clear to what port they ought to steer, their arrival at that port must be effected through men and shoals which *would require every care and caution to avoid. After pass ing this law, it would requite the beet attention the govern ment could bestow upon its administration to make it effec tual and secure. He need not tell their l•rdships that this bill had been headed upon the existence of a calamity with which the house and the country had by this time become but too Wallin. He did not emotive this bill to be • per manent remedy for the *ells to which that calamity had given rim; on the contrary, he believed that a permanent remedy must be looked fur from other wurces; and the oaly ground, on which he asked the house to assent to this bill was as an important, if not an indispensable palliative for Ireland--a palliative which they would be compelled by circumstances to adopt. He further asked their lordships to give their assent to the messurs, because be had not heard suggested by what other means the existence of this disorder could be remedied. Before he proceeded to state what this measure was, he would first state what it was not. After what he had beard in that house and elsewhen—after the statements he had read in the newspapers, and knowing what were the apprehensions in Inland itself upon the subject, he thought it material that he should at once state that this bill was not a bill confined to the general, indis criminate, and permanent right to outdoor relief in Ireland; and, therefore, that it did not involve the confiscation of property in that country. If it involved that principle, he should be the last man to propose its adoption. because he know well, that if false humanity, misguided philanthropy, or blind confidence in the future suggeste any attempt to confer the indiseiiminate right to out-door relief, the attempt would be attended with consequences fatal le the property of the country, end fatal to the character of italite issi (llear, hear.) He, therefore, repeated that no s was involved in the present bill He would add, that if each a right was attempted by parliament to be conferred, Its immediate afflict would be to inereue the amount of consumers, which was already too great, and to ditainish the number of producers, which was already too small. (Hear.) Its further effect would be gradually to with draw capital from the country, instead of adding capital to it ; to diminish indostry, and to disorder the relations which ex isted between landlord and tenant—between producers and consumers—until at length the result was arrived at that the produce of the reentry was altogether insufficient to sup port the people, and nothing but the right to consume would remain. - (Heer, hear.) This would be the inevitable result of a permanent and Indiscriminate right to outdoor relief. Entertaining, as he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) did, so great ajealouryand mistrust with respect to the right to out-door relief, he might be asked on what ground he proposed, even in a quefified degree, tho adoption of the principle, as on donbtedly wee propotedunderoertain guards to be adopted by the bill ? That question he was bound to answer—he was bound also to vindicate the course which her Majesty's .government were about to pursue. It was true that a great elegem of risk was to be encountered by the application cf this nem ; bat then, where was any other remedy to be hand suitable to the condition of Ireland, as affected by its peerless habits and state of society ? Most of their lor&hips, •eithor from personal knowledge or hoot description, were well acquainted with the state of Ireland ; and he thought se noble lord who heard him would hesitate to come to the conclusion that there was no remedy for the condition or safety of Ireland except by effecting a great, extensive, and permanent change in the pursuits and habits of society in titan country. (Hear, hear.) To regulate, to promote this ch tnge—to make that safe and innocuous whisk at present was dangerous and injurious, ought to be the great object of their liehips. (Hear.) And what was the extent of the ctionge that must take place? No man would say, that upon the potato crop the prospects of Ireland must rest for the future. (Hear, hoer.) There was no safety fee Ireland but bye change in the habits and pursuits other population. That change must be large and most extensive whole die trin must arum a new character—whole inane( country, which, up to the prevent moment, had only been touched by the spade, mart submit to bear the pressure of the plough— whole bodies of the people who had heretofore assumed the character of farmers, and earned a miserable existence, dependent upon the accidents of nature, and without resources or the means of subsistence, if nature failed them, must undergo the dreary discipline of learning that such a condition and state of things was practically gone. (Hear, hear.) Whole masses of the people mut be taught only to rely upon their independent labour, and the proprietors of /eland must abandon those habits which led them to indulge and protect those of their tenantry they must be taught that this species of cultivation must cease and give way to an improved, more enlightened, and more active course of management of their property. (Hear, hear.) It wes only by creating a sufficient number of stimuli to the landed proprietor', and to the tOSSRSI of the people, that the gent change could he effected, by which the production of ore staple should be substituted for another; and who was bold enough to state bow much longer time would elapse before this change in the elements of society should be set to rights, and a new creature substituted in the place of those now existing? (Hear, hear.) He would venture to say it would be as wild and absurd to state exactly in what number of years this change would be effected, as it would be beyond presumption for any geologist, however eminent, to state what was now peering below the surface of the earth. He, therefore, appealed to their lordships whether, during the time this transition was going on, Anil until the elements of society bad settled down into a state of tranquillity, it was not necessary to provide for the perpetually occurring dis tresses of the people, and especially for the existence of those In estate of transition, until they were enabled to provide for themselne, after improvements had been effected in the agriculture of the country. (Hear.) Where were they at present to find that assistance sad support? Where was the machinery now existing which, when camel but certain dis tress arose, would be able Weave the persons so exposed from all the horrors of famine ? Some provision therefore must be made by the legislature. Their lordships had seen a great calamity pervade Ireland within the present year,— • ^y had seen that calamity met by a degree of liberality— he an extent of means which did honour to human nature. ((tear, hear, hear.) But was the safety and condi tion of Ireland to be left fur the next three, four, or live years to the supplies furnished by the generosity of this and other nations ? Certainly not and hence, after a careful survey of all the difficulties of the subject, the present bill was sug gested as a palliative—a measure which provided a qualified ay tem of outdoor relief—temporary in its nature, and guarded in its operation, so as to prevent those abuses which he admitted were the necessary concomitants of the system. (Hear, hear.) This was the general principle of the bill, which, of course, would be administered by the poor-law commissioners, under the responsibility of the government, in Ireland. He now came, severally, to state what were the provisions of the bill. The fir ,t clause proposed, thatbeyond the existing system of in-door relief within the workhouse, relief sho ul d be granted out of the workhouse to each dvatituts poor persona as were pennimently disabled from labour by reason of old age, infirmity, or bodily or mental delbot ; and it further left it to the discre tion of the boards of guardian, to give others relief in or out of the workhouse. (Hear, hear.) The next clause gave a power to the poor-law comnaistioners from time to time to empower the guardians oa a rerresen lotion of any extraordinary destitution in a district, to give out-door relief to ninon' applying for it, but for two months only; although the relief might be renewed at the end of that time, by a fresh order, and it was to be shortened if possible. It was also directed that this assistance should be given in food only. It bad been found that by the measures recently enacted the payment of money was an unavoidable source of abuse. The object of this bill wag to guard against abuw. He did not say that giving assistance in food might not give rise to abuse, for the persons receiving it might sell it and convert it into money, Mot he relied on the precautions to he taken by the guardians, and some security would be found in the power given to them to refuse to continue the allowance to any person detected in salting it. This relief would be administered only when the workhouse was full, and the guardians would have power to require persons to go into the workhouse. This would elm be a great safeguard. This administration of out-door relief waste be suppoeted by a rate paid in wawa proportion by all except die very lowest deseriptise of farmer., if (semen they could be called. All insuplers beyond 41. would be liable to this rate, and, as la the bare Poor Law Bill, the burden would be shared hewer die landlord and the tenant. He did hope that whatever ahem lions their lordships might be indaced to maks In the they would not throw the whole burden of the rate OR the tenants. Neither did he wish that it should be Omni ono ' gather on the landlords. Besides the contibientions awitiz from the great pressure and overwhelming which induced him to look to this bill aloes ei s T u Olietee there was another more p iliteal in its nature which bad induced him to concur in this parasols, measure. It was well known that for years there had been ei comrlsint of the number of absentees in Ireland. It was a favourite complaint, and in many instances a favourite gab tea of mimes resentation He had experienced the effect of that misrepresentation, when statements had been made, the reveres of truth as to what be had contributed to the relief of the poor ; and he had also seen misstatements as to the CZILYof whiel he was pawned. It wee a feeling very I arise he periods of distress and difficulty, 2bolll thee at any other time ; and it was believed that absentees 101 l the preeenre to be borne by the residents, while they were ezempt themselves. It was a powerfnlpolitial argument that this bill put an end to that complaint. A101111(0011111 might, and did rs.ist in England as well as Ireland, and in parts of the north ; and in Wales it existed in no email degree; but they did not hear the same complaints, because the proprietor was made to contribute to the necessities of the poor. Lord STANLEY—Through the tenant: he pays the rate. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—The tenant paid it, but the impression was that it was the landlord, and he was now dealing with impressions. ill. noble friend supposed that he was addressing himself to the point haw the rate was to be distributed between the landlord and tenant, but he was applying himself to the question of outdoor relied, and his argument was, that by this bill the complaint of the non-contribution of absentees wax removed. Another ma terial point in the bill was, that relieving officers were to to appointed to meet other cases of destitution. A good deal would depend on the careful superintoodeme of the guar dians ; and he hoped it would be exercised for the sake of their own interests and 'nun", and he trusted that by per mitting this dense to pass, they would prevent any one from being subject to the casualty of falling dead from starvation because no one was appointed to afford them relief. Another material provision was a restriction which had been suggested he a noble friend of his, and of which be (the Msrqius of Lensdowne) had previously felt the great importance, and which confined relief to persons not pm served of land exceeding a quarter of an acre. It was con sistent with justice and the interests of the public, that per sons applying for relief should give up their land. next point was that contained in the Ilth clause, which provided that all expenses beyon'i Is. 6d. in the pawed should be charged on the union at large. No doubt there were difficulties connected with this question, and he wee prepared to discuss them candidly and fairly; but be might as well state that while it was desirable to give every stimulus to proprietors to improve their property, if the rating were adopted indiscriminately, in some places and in large towns the effect would be to annihilate their resources; and ustless they gave to particular districts the power of ex tending taxation (be would not carry it beyond the union), there would be , a risk of great social disorder. Another question was, that of giving asaistance 100 emigration. (Hear.) He could not enter into details which only carried further Os provisions of the old poor law, which furnished assistance to emigrants out of the rates., This bill carried it further in this respect, that if the propels.' tors of the electoral districts furnished two-thirds of the ex penses for an emigrant, the guardians might raise the re. mainder in the nuion. The only remaining provision Im portance was the one relating to ex oficio guardians, the number of which was to be increased, with the limitation that they did not exceed one-half of the elected gua dians. The other provisions related to the schools in unions, and espe cially in the Dublin union. The remaining clauses were in tended to give greater security to the operation of the bill, and the last but ono secured the complete auditing of the accounts of the guardians, so that every item of relief must be brought under the conaideration of the auditor, and reported to the poor law commiesionen, and be subject to their approval or discouutenanee. He kad made himself ill understood, if he had led their lordships to believe that it was desirable, or that they were required to pass this bill unaccompanied by other measures. He was bound to state that is his opinion other concomitant measures were ineiepensable, and one which he considered a necessary consequence of this bill, the Vagrant Act, hail limn introduced in the other house. Beyond that he felt that this bill should be accompanied by legislative facilliee which would lead to exertions on the part of proprietors in the cultivation and improvement of their property. With respect to that a bill had been introduced by has noble and learned friend on the Woolsack, and which was now un their lordship.' table, and stood fora second reading, which gave facilities to the sale of estates ; it being a great public object that proprietors, if they were compelled to improve their estates, should also have facilities for selling them. Another measure was, that for the encouragement of the cultivation of waste lands, which was introduced in the other hones; and there was also another bill for making advances to land lords to enable them to introduce improved cultivation on' their estates. Even before the bill passed into law, the mere announcement that its provisions would be applieable to ordinary as well as entailed estates, caused many persons to be desirous to avail themselves Of it, and surveys bad been made for contemplated improvements on a large scale. There were other measures which gave facilities far the erection of piers and curing etagere, for fisheries- and it was a fact that some curing stations, which had ally been established lest entrain, had repaid the sures ezpanded en them. This was a stimulus to industry ea which the. go vernment, the Board of Works, and the etsearaimariat might themselves; and it promised to become a new rEhli n o l i t s t ; trade. All these measures were to be adopted. That they would prove sufficient he could not ay; but d this he must state that, in one important under taking, , the government had applied a greet stimulus to in dustry. The large sum of 510,0001. had been advanced for a trunk railway, the Great South-Western, which would se ewe to that part of the country a greater amount of industry than had hitherto prevailed, and lead to the completion ef the work in less than a year. Advances had also been made to the Waterford and Kilkenny, and the Dublin mid Drog heda Companies, and this was only when 50 per cent. of the capital had been subscribed, so that they had the best secu rity for their being completed. It was to those measures, and to the stimulus so applied to industry, and to the im provemente suggested to proprietors, and which could only have their full result, through their own zeal and exertions, that they must ultimately look. This law was n as a palliative; but it was only to that arplication and to own exertions, that they could look for a happy future fez Ireland. In that only could they find the prospect "Of that happier hour' Which darkest clouds that dimly 'oi r, And blacken round our weary way, Oilda with a Ceara of distant day." That day might be distant, but he believed that by their exertions and by legislation they might materially assist the efforts which were made to find a remedy. He asked their lordship' to adopt this measure the immediate effect of which would be to prevent a certain amount of calamity. While addreraing their lordship+ he had - been painfully reminded in the place in which he stood, and in which their lordships were resembled, of the contrast which existed between that place presenting as it did at that moment the type and manilas. Cation of all the luxury, all the wealth, and all the power ft this country, between that scene of imperial grandeur end the depth and abyss of misery which they were called ore. end which it was their duty to contemplate. All he asked was that they init,ht be enabled to look from out the splawdour that surrounded them with clear and undazzled eyes oa the prospect of the wants of that portion of the king. des for which they were called on to legislate, which noose could doubt existed, and which foisting it was their mania duty to use every effort to endeavour to providefor. (" Heir," and cheers.) The noble marquis then moved the assured reading of the bill. The Earl of CLANCARTY asked whether a tem porary calamity ought to be made the ground work of a measure like this. No one wished for an effec tive poor-law for Ireland more than he did. The first section of the bill gave to the guardians of every union the option of relieving to the workhouse or out of the wolkhouse, except to the able-bodied; the centering** of this would be, that the workhouse would he regarded rather as a prison, or a place of punishmeat, than as a means of relieving destitution. Another objection was, that in many districts, notwithetanding out-door relief might be more economical than relief within the walls of the work house, in all cases out-door relief might be refused, and thus the measure made more unpopular both with the rate-payers and thepoor. Again, by spring to the guardians the power of relieving helpless and infirm at their homes, they would materially interfere with the flow of private charity, and thus sever one of the most important link, which now bound the higher and middle with the lower classes. This evil too, would be aggravated by the clause which excluded from out-door relief any person who poi. awned more than a quarter of an acre of land, for persons in that position would be deprived of the aid they now obtained when suffering under sickness and help. lesson", without being provided with any substitute. This clause would also act as an inducement to the poor to cut up their bolding, so as to keep themselves within the limit, and thus still further to increase the evils of subdivision. The second clause, which allowed the commissioners under cer tain circumstances to authorise oat-doer relief to be given to the able-bodied as well as to the permanently infirm, he looked upon as a just provision, though in this respect he was aware he differed from many of his noble friends who took the same general view of the measure ü be did , lie thought it right, when the workhouse was full, or when from the prevalence of fever within ice walls it became unfit for the reception of paupers, that relief out of doors should be given. (Hear.) To the 11th Notion ' which directed that when the expenses under this act exceeded in any electoral division of ,union a certain sum on the net annual value, a portion of such expenses only should be charged on the division, and the remainder on the union at lam„ he was opposed. Though he should, as the possessor of land to a considerable extent is a town division, gain by such a provision, he thought the injustice of it so great, especially as connected with the power to give out-door relief to the poor in their cabins, thus leaving it open to the middle men to increase the weight of pauperism in the suburbs, that he, for one, could not consent to it. To the 15th section, which made tithe composition and rent-charge in lieu thereof a rateable hereditament is rating for the relief to the poor, he also objected. With regard to the in crease in the number of ex officio guardians, he had expected from the noble marquis, who moved the rand reading, some explanation of the grounds alike had influenced the government in making this change hem the existing l aw ; butall the noble mergeds had told them was that the whole number of ex officio guardians would not exceed the number et elected guardians. This would be • most unpopular dean, and he lamented its adoption by the government. la anthem molten ministers had proceeded in • direct con trary MIMI tea that which the informations contained in the emend reports made by them who were acquainted with Ireland should have inclosed them to take, and con trary With* TONIII6IOI which had beau presented to Lord J. Rued' by the esseetation bums es the Irish party. He had set iefnsi is the diversifies ot that party, not because he eseidssed that such dimming end union of scion by netwebsee er different polities& Firths who were particularly measles' with Irked, were net emineny useful in pro duct', the basis et mewl leghiatiee for tl the country, but booms. ha wee we Is Imam at the time. And here he wort add that lt d e s = the mower given by the prime relafeese to the who ealmaitted three resolutions to ham anything bet meetasive, was was it quite fair to call an thee to , a 6 me mare they world propose in lieu of list is whisk objected. It appeared t o hi m th at suc h an answer fewest the government had no t t h emse l ves given due atisetha to the subject on which they pro pose d to legislate, Whim the existing poor law was h t ley b. reasembered that teacart other things it vrla eansgisieed spinet.- it thst ...it wee the •wrk -of a viadtmaa who taint writhing of Ireland, erampt tha# he had glade • short tour is that 'outstay. Butt out of what inquiry bad the pratent bill sprat* ? (llear,jtear.) Ile should Uhe to be informed Who MN its author. (Boar.) Whoever he was, be Ina at leastdietiersiatisd for einem dirnry independence of character, foi hebad evinced a total disregard of every recommendation contained in the cations reports on the table of the home and the experience of every one who was practically acquainted with *textual state of Ireland. (lieu, hear.) tine otlserSisain objection to the bill was, that, under it, the industrious labourer and the anima were placed on • level with the iadolent and the vagrant. To the Drainage Act, the act for reeldimna waste lands, and the facilities for intending railways in' eland, he looked sea means of employing lanour to a great extent ; and if in combination with these Measures same means for placing the medical charities on a sound footing, SO at to give to the labourer an assurance of relief in gainer from that source, were adopted, mach good would result. If the govern ment bad attended to the wishes of the people of Ireland, they would long since have passed an effective measure of poor relief for the sick and infirm, in connexion with the Irish medical charities. In 1842, and on subsequent occasions, this important subject bed been urged on the government, but without effect. Eatertaining the objections he did to the present bill, and for the reasons he had stated, it would be his duty to move that it be read a second time that day six months. ...... The LORD CHANCELLOR having put the amendment, The Earl of St. GERMANS rote to support the second reading of the bill. The present law gave considerable dis cretionary power to the boards of guardians, and the only new principle introduced in the bill before the house was that which enabled them to afford out-door relief to able. bodied pounces. Great apprehensions were felt in tome quarters as to the effects of the proposed change; but he would ask the house whether the present social coudition of the Irish labourer was such as to make any change an object of dread. (Hear, hear.) The social evils of Ireland were generally acknowledged ; and if be thought the bill ealcu lated to aggravate them, he should be the last men to give it his support. He should always resist an indiscriminate system of out-door relief, but it was hardly fair to argue front the abuses of a system against its wee; and he was sot prepared to think 'Chat the boards of guardians in Ireland would be too witting to set aside the workhouse test, and to sanction an incline minate system of out-door relief. He thought that their lord ships, in coming to a decision on this bill, should know what was actually the amount contributed by the property of Ireland to the relief of the poor, the more especially as his noble friend had admitted that it should be made liable tot the relief of destitution. By tak ing the whole amount raised by poor rate is 1846, and adding ,to it all the county rates and voluntary contributions for in. fftmaries and dispensaries, he found that the property of Ireland contributed to the relief of the poor in-the whole about tespence-halfpenny in the pound. Surely there was a wide margin between this and absolute cosfiscation, (Hear, hear.) Besides, it should be recollected, tkat there was at the present moment in Ireland an immense masa of mendi cancy, which pressed heavily on the farmer, and even the farm labourer. This would soon be got rid of, as he was happy to learn from the noble marquis. oppo site, that • bill was in preparation for the suppression of mendicancy and vagrancy in Ireland. With respect to the number of az officio guardian in each union. it should be resollected that the LlOlOlllll in Ireland were much hug, r than those of England, and for that reason contained a greater number of justices, so much so, that he knew some cues where the ex officio guardians would exceed the elected guardians in number. For this reason he would nines; that in any case where the ex officio guardians exceeded the elected guardians in number, the poor-law commissioners should take order for increasing the number of the latter. (Hear, hear.) He also thought the ninth clause, denying relief to persons holding above a quarter of an Isere at land, too striogenr. While upon this subject he could net refrain from expressing his hope that their lordships world not agree to an amendment which had nearly suceeded in another place. lie believed that the success of that amend ment would be entirely fatal to the objects of the bill. (Hear, hear.) It might be very well to say that all burdens must fall ultimately on the laud, but the ease of the Irish and English farmer were widely different. In England, when • person went to take a firm, the first , question he asked was the amount of the rates and taxes, and if he found them excessive he declined ;taking the farm. But in Ireland land was the first necessary of life, the man must have it or starve, and therefore he would submit to any rent the landlord might choose to demand. He feared that the success of the clause would be the signal for a renewal of the tithe war, and that there would be a total failure in the collection of the rate. He trusted their lordships would agree to this measure, as ancillary to ether measures introduced and about to be in treduced by the government. It would be better to reject the hill at once than to emasculate it by the adoption of the amendment. (Hear.) Lord IsIONTEAGLE said that this measure was brought forward in an emergency ; and was the house now to pass a permanent measure to meet the requirements of an emer gency ? (Hear, hear.) The time of outrage and insurrec tion was not the occasion on which to legislate in reference to the liberty of the subject ; neither should the legislature attempt to enact permanent measures, applinible to the social condition of the people, founded upon the necessities of the moment. And yet, rearly all the arguments by wbich the noble marquis (Lansdowne) bad supported chi( bill, were drawn from the exceptional state of affairs now deistiag in Ireland, and were consequently not to be relied on in the CABO of • permanent measure. On a former -000apion, he (Lord !dente/Tie) had shown abundant authority from the Union down to the present time. for refusing to establish • system of oar'-door relief to the able-bodied poor ; while on the other side not the shadow of an authority had been adducer. The bill already passed for the temporary relief of the poor, contained the same dangerous principles as were embodied in and perpetuated by the measure now before the house ; but the former bill had been adopted with little oppo sition, as &necessary relief in a case of emergency. 'The effect of that MOWS would soon become known ; and had the government waited until then, before proposing the perma nent measure, they might have been able to disarm much of the apprehension with which the present measure was viewed. Much had been said about the necessity for the workhouse as a test of destitution ; but noble lords appeared to have overlooked the difference between the extent of unions it England and Ireland. In the latter country there were only 150 workhs uses, and some of the unions comprised from 250,000 to 600,000 statute acres; while in England there were very few unions anything like so large. A work house, to be a test for the poor in the union, ought to be adjacent; if at 40 or 50 miles' distance, it was no practical test whatever. He was acquainted with four unions in Sligo and the adjoining counties, containing from 600 to 800 square miles; and the great six! of these unions would effectually prevent the application of the test as proposed. In Ireland there were only 51 unions, with a population lees then 60,000, and only 10 with • population below 30,000 ; in England there were 570 unions having • population of less than 50,000; so that any argument drawn from the operation of the poor-law in this country was wholly illusory. How was it pose 4e to carry the law into effect through the agency of a single relieving officer ? Let any men who bad aver visited Ireland for the shortest possible period—evea for a period no longer than appeared necessary to qualify any one to act as secretary for Ireland—(laughter)—let any one who had the sligh•est knowledge of the country—be asked how it was possible that a single relieving office r should dis charge his duties in these extensive unions. The relieving officer was to exercise a discretion, too ; but what kind of discretion could be expected from a man placed in such a situation ? This prevision alone would render the bill utterly impractical/le. Instead of allowing the boards of guardians to appoint the relieving officers, and thus opening a door to favouritism, it would be much better thit they should be appointed as government efficere. It was said that out-door relief would only rarely be resorted to. This , he denied : he was convinced it would prevail most extensively. In the workhouses, at present, there were 50,000 children, who were receiving a good education ; these could not be removed, neither could many of the adults. What, then, was to became of the large mass of persons who, in a very short time, must be discharged from the public works ? A flood of pauper labour would thus be cast upon the unions which would more than choke tip the whole of the work houses, and out-door relief must then be extensively resorted to. (Hear, hear) Whatever government might attempt to do by any measure fur the suppression of vagrancy, it was impossible to root out of the minds of the Irish people the principle, most religiously held, of the right of the destitute to relief by alms as a moral obligation. The vagrancy bill might work well in the north of Ireland, but elsewhere it would wholly fail. He was convinced that • larger sum was collected annually in Dublin, and distributed in charity, than in any other metropolis, in proportion to its wealth and population. If it could he shown to him that this was a safe and judicious mode of administering relief to Irelands-that it would teed to better the sondition of the. people, and to call forth habits of industry, he should consider the money charge the least important part of the question. He, there fore, treated the argument of confiscation so a secondary gentler. They talked of the confimatioa of Irish estates and their passing into other hands, but the ties which at prevent existed between the proprietors and their property could not be easily severed, arid then not without serious hazard to the whole framework of society in that country. His noble friend said that he hoped the land which was at present tilled by the spade, might hereafter be cultivated by the plough, but although • better system of agricul taro might be desirable, and yield a greater pro duce, it was most erroneous to suppose it would give employment to a greater quantity of the popu lation. But it was said a stimulus was to be applied to the Irish landlords. How was this bill to give such a stimulus ? Would it be by increasing the rates? Why, the rates in many cases could not be collected, except from the parson of the parish, who was, perhaps, the only orthodox individual in it—(a laugh),—and the benevolent and considerate land lords, and, the industrious and orderly tenantry, would not only have to maintain their own poor, but those of the pan penned and neglected parish adjoining. To pass on to another subject, it was • great delusion to suppose that this measure would cause a cssietion of Irish emigration into England. Amongst some of the reasons urged in its favour, this was one of the strongest put forth is laver of out-door relief; but such a consequence could not be prWuced staler the effect of the measure was to raise the rate of wages in Ireland, and if the result was to lower the rate of wages, the emigration to tide couunTwould be increased. (Hear.) Ile need hardly say that from all experience in England the tendency of out-door relief had been to lower the rate of wages. (Hear, hear ) Ile did not dispute that responsibility attached to the fetch landlords, and they were ready and willing to bear it. Their objection to the measure was not confined to the amount of the burden, but more especially to the mode et appropriating the fund intended to be levied on them. Medical cheriti.■ and the cost of educating the people might form a just burden on the land. The govern ment had promised to instruct the Irish people in agricul- THE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EVENING, APRIL 38;.1847. ten. If such a course lied be aillijeetie4 ago the bane raw* of the lisndletels. Is 111.11 t Sea Is their totems, wentbinithave beenftustintedleytWVneememia,loetknow ling eowle avail themselves of it. :les emeeniese, he mew only say, that without • system oreenignelms is would be utterly is vain to attempt to deal with the Meng calamity which tbeheren ailsdeplere. (Hear, hear) The Mas4uis of CLANRICARDE Ina glad I. hear his noble friend (Lord Motiteagle) conclude with the idea teat instruction should be given to the people in agriculture, be came he understood him in the commencement of his speech to my, in reply to the noble marquis (the Marquis of Lans downe) that, however great the improvements in agriculture might be, hafted of creating more employment it would cause less ; but his own opinion was, that when the resources of a people were increased, it must necessarily lead to the encouragement of employment. (Hear, hear.) The greet argument of the noble lord against out-door relief was a comparison between the unions of England and the unions of Ireland ; but when he complained of the size of the Irish anions, it would have been but fair to have called their lordships attention to the 20th clause of the bill they were then discussing, which provided that they might be diminished, as, from the operation of the act, might he found necessary. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl (the Earl of Clan-arty) had said that the principle of the bill was moat unsound, and he had a right is oppose it on authority, and he afterwards advocated a national rate. The Earl of CLANCARTY made some observations is explanation, which were totally inaudible in the gallery. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE had so 'Understood the noble lord; it was exactly what he had said : when out. , 1 door relief became necessary, he advocated a national rate. The noble earl was fond of appealing to authorities, he would, therefore, refer him to the report of the Archbishop of Dublin, and the other commissioners, which re commended that a rate should be made for the re lief of the aged, the infirm, orphans, other help less persons and casual paupers. (Hear, hear, hear.) This bill would relieve all persons who came under that category. His noble friend had spoken of this measure as if out-door relief was to be given to all classes of persons —but this was not so; it was only under certain circum stances that the poor-la v commissioners in Ireland could by this bill allow the guardians to give out-door relief for a cer tain time, and, therefore, he could not understand on what proem& ft could he said that if thin bill passed, that out door relief snivel become the rule. lie totally denied that such an expectation was well founded. It wep admitted that destitution and desperation existed, and, therefore, was it net better to risk even such a ruinous measure as this bill had been described to he than to peewit the continuance of the present state of things in Ireland. It would have been necessary to take strong measure' with respect to Ireland, even if the calamity she had lately ex perienced had not befallen her. That vices and evils existed in that country had been shown by the commission issued by Sir R. Peel's government, of which commission the noble earl near him (the Earl of Devon) was at the head. That commission exhibited difficulties with which it was necessary to deal • and the late government had been pre vented from proceeding in consequence of the faiiure of the crops, and from other causes which would have been aggra vated if the measures recommended by the noble earl had been proceeded with. The present was not a passing emer gency, and the home was bound to legislate tor the future, looking to the effects which the late emergency had created. Those effects rendered it the more ttectsaars that the landed proprietors, great and small, that the farmers and labourers should look the state of things firmly in the face, and be pre pared to deal with any pressure that might arise. He thought there could not be a stronger argument in favor of a poorlaw in Ireland than the statement made by his noble friend as to the mass of pauperism and vagrancy which was, somehow or other, at present supported ; and he asked would it not be better to afford relief under proper legal re gulations calculated to induce habits of order, industry, and discipline, instead of leaving them, as now, by working on the religious feelings, to extort money out f the innate be nevolence of their fellow-countrymen. With or without a Poor -low, it was absolutely necessary that some amendment in this respect should be effected, though he could Rot agree with the most rev. prelate (the Arcbbieliop of Dublin) in the allegation be made in a speech some time back, that the Irish labourer was desperately improvident. 'lbis was de nied by the reports of the best engineer*, employing large masses of labour on public works. Those reports showed that the Irish labourers were actuated by sound principles of economy, and that they were willing to work well when they were well paid. No e, the leading fault of a poor-law was, that it reduced mea to a minimum of wages and of sub sistence, thus bringing them moreor less to a state of slavery. But what raid the most rev. prelate in the speech to which be (the Marquis of Clanricanle) referred? lie stated that he did not give high wages to the b at men. The e-rchbishop of DUBLIN.—I never said so. I said I did not give as high wages as they usually earned. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE resumed. The words he would read e I did not give laze wages because I preferred employing a larger number at moderate wages." This was just the mischief which existed in Ireland—the people were employed not because their labour was wanted, but in order to give them relief. It was objected to the proposed out-door relief that, once established in principle, it would become the rule which the guardians would be unable or unwilling to set ride after the necessity had ceased. Now he was may to contend that if the farmers would not unite with the Centre y in doing their duty, they would be ruined partly q the operation of this law, and partly by the condition le which the country would be brought. The well waking of this measure depended upon the people them selves; moll them must lend their aid, and be guided by *Nis wits were bath able and willing to advise them. With the existing etas of things, it would become the legis lature or the government to pause, and he had that confi dence in the people of all classes in Ireland, in the gentry, the formes, and the lower orders themselves, to believe, Wit, regulated as they were by the same feelings which situated other men, they would avoid further evils, sad therefore that this bill would effect a great benefit to the whole community. (Hear, hear.) The Arc ibishop of DUBLIN said he did not rise for the of entering into the details el this measure, which e already been eo ably argued on both aides. He rose be eases an allusion had been made to expmsions be had used in a former speech, which he was sure the noble marquis did not wish to misrepresent. But a slight alteration made all the difference. The expression alluded to described his practice with regard to the employment of labourers, and what he had said was, that he did not give high wage I, but such wages as he wished to see an able bathed industrious man able to earn—such wages as would not discourage a man from finding employment at the best wages which the neighbouring farmers could offer. This was to prevent a want of labour in the agricultural cultivation of the soil. (Hear, hear.) In this way he had employed many persons, and so had many noble lords now present, when he had no need of it, but simply to beep the people from seeking parochial relief. This was a proper and legitimate way of conferring relief, so long as it wee done voluntarily and secretly. (Hear, hear.) But the moment this had been attempted to be carried out by tbe Labour rate Act, the whole charm, the entire tqwll, was broken ; because, as soon never) , man knew he was only employed to keep him from the parish, not only the sepses ors hands but all the rest thought they were pelmets, sad must be maintained without labour. It son not his intention to detain the house by engaging now in a All dimension on the hill now before it ; but, as he wee:as his legs, he must express how strongly he felt the difficult sndemberraeeing circumstances in which her Majesty's ad visers were placed. He must also express bin full coneurreses in all that had been said in relation to the liberality shown by England to Ireland, as also by the people of America. He had himself been the channel through which a liege portion of the contributions from America had been distributed ; and only yesterday be had received intelligence of the arrival of a cargo of corn meal, the purchase of the contributions of the people of Philadelphia, through the instrumentality of the episcopal Bishop Potter. Another cargo was on the .' y . Those already received from the United States, from C sad from another colony which bad been sent to him, 7ieM distributed Is such a way am to into effect the intentsaad peeper' of the government. It had been insinuated that atom collections mule abroad for the Irish people had gone late his pocket. (A laugh.) To that, and other imputatless from time to time cast upon him, he should not trouble their lordships with any defence, because he acted upon the maxim which he had declared 14 years ago, that a character which did not defend itself was not worth defending. (Hear, hear ) To revert to the measure now under consideration, he must observe that, with the noble marquis who had m 'wed the second reading, he thought it a perilous experiment, and he must ask the governments consider carefully and cautiously how many rocks and shoals there were through which they most steer their way. In Ireland there was not the requisite machinery—they had no rudder, compass, or paddle-wheels by which to direct and work the viseel, although the chart laid down might be good. (Hear, hear.) This was the geound et his apprehensions with respect to this measure. lie entertained a deep sense of the danger and bossed of the experiment, which once made, it would be difficult fee the legislature to retrace its steps, and therefore he trusted the measure would nut be made permanent with out the greatest degree of caution and deliberation. (Hear.) Lord STANLEY expressed a hope that after the discus sloe which had taken place, his uoble friend (the E irl of Clancarty) would not be disposed to press his amendment. He concurred with the most rev. prelate and his noble friend (the Marquis of Lansdowne) in thinking that this was a measure fraught with danger, and which would require caution in dealing with it, and its consequences would be more important than even the pecuniary results either to one class or the other. This bill would probably not have been brought forward but for the painful emergency in which Ireland was placed. Whatever might be the incon venience of legislating on a subject like this ate time of ex "Bement, and with feelings of alarm, which would prevent its disposeionate consideration, yet, there were some einem titaness which gave facilities for effecting a well considered change in the law, which did not exi t at any other time. AU claesea in Ireland were prepared for • great change; then was a breakin up of old habits and feeling; Stern necessity had forced upon them lessons which would hove learned from no other monitress. But alt these facilities existed, it did not exempt the government sod the legislature frost divesting themselves of all palliosate feelings, which were calculated to swerve and weep them from their duty. On the contrary, they were ally ea to consider maturely while legislating the irsanaiffis sew quinces and ultimate result of they policy ; to bi as polio to a measure that would temporarily or permeneatly mom the property of Ireland to be crushed by a universal pow perm.. On the other hand, well-considered legislation might conduct them through perils and dangers to the formation of a sounder state of the community in Ireland ; and perhays " out of this nettle danger they might pluck the flower safety." It was necessary that they should take no step which they would be called on to retrace—no course, of the prudence and safety of Ishkh they were not convinced. His noble friend on the crose-benehis ( Earl St. Germans) seemed to take an inade quate measure of the pecuniary consequences of this saes - - - ware. He had spoken of 7d. or 74d. in the pound as the amount at which the property of Ireland was charged. AU he (Lord Stanley) could say was that kis property was rated at 6s. in the pound for Use next' three months, and there were more exaggerated oases when even 20s. in the pound had bees levied for the relief of distress. Whether this state of things was to continue; whether it was to be modi fied ; or whether it was to be done away with, depended not oa their humanity and kindness, bat on the prudence of their legislation. Hillis bill contained provisions for indis criminate outdoor relief it could have had no stronger opponent than himself. But if he had read it right, it practical'y placed a negative on any claim to out- ' door relief; at the same time it largely extended, and wisely, if safely guarded, relief to destitution from the public funds. As the law now stood there was no claim to relief as a right. His noble friend (Earl St. Germans) said that the guardians of poor-law unions under the present law were bound to pro vide relief; but there wan nothing compulsory; if they thought fit they might provide in the workhouse for the permanently impotent, and, if there was room, fur the able. bodied, but none could demand it as a right. This bill made it mandatory on the guardians to provide for the perma nently destitute, the infirm and impotent, either in or out of the workhouse, according to their discretion. It went further, and authorised the giving of assistance to the able-bodied out of the workhouse. But even now, if an able-bodied pauper applied for relief, the guardians were not bound to take him mto the workhouse, it it was full, and then they had no power to relieve hint. As the bill stood, although the workhouse was full, there was nothing mandatory with re gard to relief. But the poor-law commissioners had the power to call on the guardians, if the workhouse was full, to give relief for two months inroad alone. If the clause stood alone, it would not be open to serious danger. But it must not be forgotten that you spoke of the workhouses being full ; there was already in the guardians a power to hire temporary buildings, and no limit was prescribed to such accommodation. He agreed with his noble friend u to the want of workhouses in Ireland, for when one spoke of a workhouse in • district of 80 or 100 miles it was a proof that the application of the workhouse test, with the present accom modation, could not apply to Ireland. The poor-law commis sinners had power to increase the number of workhouses, and diminish the size of the union: but there was nothing com pulsory upon them to do so, and the present accommodation would prove utterly inefficient under the bill, and its in crew was a tine qua non to the working of this mea sure. He should eutirely concur in this bill, if, by uniting all the rate-payers and possessors of property in one common interest, it would prevent lavish expenditure, and cause a due administration of the funds. If they had not the local machinery with the know ledge and the will to carry out the principle of this term, that priaciple would break down under a trial of three months. He need not ask their lordships not to be led away by the vogue denunciations of the landlords by the press, and persons in another place ; as tyrants and oppressors. He would go much further and ask them not to throw on the property and the kindle:de of Ireland burdens which they could not bear; not to require them to do what they would not do themselves, and he asked them to compare the power of the English landlord over his estate with that of an Irish one. It was the fashion to say that the Irish landlord possessed unlimited power over the tenant, but that of the English landlord was infinite in comparison. In Ireland practically the tenant exercised power over the landlord. ' He asked them, therefore, not to call on the landlords and property of Ireland to perform duties under eirenkudanees that they would not perform themselves. He was speakieg with reference to a provision of the bill, and to another which he had suggested, he meant the one with regard to the extent of the union, and the other the allowing the rates to fall prospec tively OR the occupiers as was the case in this country. Their only safety in regard to this measure was in enlisting the interest of all who were concerned in the payment of the tax. The present unions cemposed 800 or 1,000 acrcs,but when they were extended to 250,000 or 300,0U0, the foundation of reckless expenditure and increased population would be laid. He hoped the government would reconsider the pro position of extending that area of taxation. It had been suggested that the town-lands should be toe area, but they •were as much too small as the others were too large. He now came to the question, by whom the burden of the rate prospectively should be borne. Under the present law, the charge was made, in the first instance, on the oceu • pier, who had, however, to deduct from the landlord what was ireeeded for a one-half per cent.; but at present, pea neatly, the rate was borne by the landlord., because the tenant had the power to deduct half the poundage of the rate from his rent. He asked those who were acquainted with the operation of the English poor-law, if they could safely commit the management of the rates to guar dians who levied the rates, and, as tenants, could deduct two-thirds from the landlord's? Farms in this country were 200 and 300 acres, hut in Ireland they were: and 10 acres, and 30 acres was a large farm. Was it safe to intrust the unlimited power of dealing with the rates to such persons ? He looked on this provision with the utmost alarm. His noble friend, (the Marquis of Lans downe,) said that the state of things in Ireland was likely to diminish /174101 holdings. lie looked forward, and so did he (Lord S;auley), to the formation of a system something analogous to that of England, when the plough would be substituted for the spade ; nor did he think, if it were adopted, that it would diminish, but rather increase the demand far labour. But the chance of such a demand must arise out of the more scientific cultivation of the land, which could not take place in the limited holdings in Ireland. His noble friend said, as if it was the easiest thing in the world, that the landlords must improve their estates end enlarge the holdings. Why on an estate held by the crown, which ought to be a model, they could not oust a tenant at will, who had not paid aahilling for sixteen. Whet had the crown done with that estate fur the last 15 years ? His noble friend said that, as a necessary opncomitaat to thin measure, tracts of land should be recovered, farms en larged, estates improved, and capital found. If practicable. this would be admirable ; but it was impracticable. The mode in which small holdings should be diminished was, by de creasing the motives of the holders to cling to them, and con solidate the farms. The clause of this bill which prohibited the holder of land from receiving relief was calculated to have this effect. Many a roan could support himself on eight or ten acres of land, hut he could never produce any effect oa the improvement or labour of the country. lie could not employ labourers. The only chance for tee poli tical and social salvation of Ireland was the diminution of small holders, and the extension of real labourers. If labour was to be employed it must be by the occu piers, not by the proprietors, and it was ridiculous to charge it on the Irish landlords that they did not employ the surplus population, when their property was divided into holdings of 15 acres, none of the tenants being able to give employ meat to labour. It woe impossible for the landlords to give any large amount of relief in the shape of labour, and if it was expected that labour should be employed on the land it would be through occupiers who must be substantial farmers. Then what inducement could they hold out to the tenant to induce him to give employment to labourers ? That which was the best security for the employment of labour in Eng. land would be equally so in Ireland. They must, in hying the land, place additional incusabrenees upon its occupation, so as to reduce the competition for its poesemion, and in melting the bargain with the tenant, they must provide that the occupier shall be chargeable with the poor-rates. Thus the interest of the tumid would be united with that of the landlord in keeping dews the poor-rate by the emnloymeut of labour. He did not himself object to • li mited and well-guarded system of out-door relief, but what he wished specially to urge upon the house was. to avoid the fatal srror of legislating upon impressions. They were now entering upon a great soda dangerous experiment : be entreated that they would not make it more danzerou- by permitting themselves to be led away against their better judgment to legislate up the impressions of those woo could not have the best means of judging what might eta ramely be the best for themselves or their country. (Hear.) In throwing this burden upon property, if they did not af ford to the owners greeter means of improving tin it estates than they now poeseseed—if they did not give them facilities of obtaining (by fair means undoubtedly) possession of their land now mismanaged by • number of small owners, a id, at the same time make it the interest of the occupying tenant to give employment to labour as the means of keeping down the poor-rate, the introduction of this bill would be the most fatal boon ever conferred upon Ireland. (Hear, hear.) Let them enter upon the experiment like statesmen, not stop half way, nor 'appose that they could throw a burden upon the land without at the same time gieirg the land a greater power of bearing it than fe now pomemeg. Let the govern ment look to thc gees% ion, not on the impression of the moment, for on it would bear the future interest of the country—they would have no party opposition to contend with—no petty difference of opinion, no difficulty arising from a desire of any party to displace them, on the contrary they would find in that Is in the other house men of all sides anxious to unite with them cordially in bringing to a successful issue this great experiment. (Hear, hear.) Let them not be led away by any impression of what might be popular for the moment but rather let them consider what might eltiniately lead to an improved state of society, in Ireland—a state of society better organised, more har monious, and working together more for the general benefit than that which now existed, or could ever exist while the present system of sub I irision act land continued. For the safety and permanent well-being of everycountry,but more especially of Ireland, there must be a due combination of the three great elements, land, labour, and capital. Now, there was in Ireland, he believed, a surplus of labour beyond that which could find employment in the efficient cultiration of the hind. They roust first provide in some way for the expatriation of that surplus labour. He be lieved that amongst the middle clam of Ireland there was now much capital lyinu useless and dormant; this was, in fact, proved by the large sums frequently realised by the mail farmer when he surrendered his holding to a man apparently no richer than himself. The disproportion be tween the hinder:ld the labouring population being dimly iiihed, he believed there was now abundant capital—and in future there would be much more—for carrying on the due cultivation of the land ; but it was impossible that it could be carried on under the present system of distribution, and the result was that the capital now employed was not sufficient to provide the re •osty labour to make the cal- Bill&tiOR profitable. To make that capital, which was now in a great measure locked up, useful, they must redistribute the property, increase the size of the farms, and create a class of people who should hare the means and the inclina tion to employ the labour of the country on a more exten sive scale than the present occupiers had. (Hear, hear.) He assured their lordships he had no disposition to enter into tie committee on this bill with any other desire thin to bring this difficult and com plicated question to a intocesshg issue. He and his friends would not grudge it to the government should they succeed in this important matter; but would rest perfectly satisfied with the credit of haying supported and touted the ministry in carrying it through. The auegntions they might have to make should be stated with frankness and openness, and with the view of making the bill as perfect as possible; his earnest prayer was, that out of this perilous measure Shay might, by acting together, and listening with Rei m . t o ek e arguments made on the ou• eide sad th e other, extract that which, though it shorld be nemeaudy attended with much immediate difficulty, and lead to mu c k i mme di a t e gaming, should end, ultimately, in the ached reconstruction of Ireland, and the permanent improvement of that country ; and if of that, then of all pare of her Majesty's dominions. (Hear.) he Earl of DESART, we've was all but inaudible in th e gallery, was understood to argue in favour of some measure for the employment of the surplus labour of Ireland, es A would be quite Impossible fur any poor-law teenaged if the burden of supporting that surplus were thrown upon it. He also took occasion to express his gratitude at the gene/eta and noble conduct of the people of England in coatin g forward as they had done to relieve the distress's of their Irisk fellow-subjects, earl condemned In the strong* terms the language which had been used by some parties in that country us speaking of those who were nationally their brethren, and much more so by their conduct on the occasion he referred to, as the natural enemies of Ireland, to be hated and contemned be all Irishmen. (Hear, hear.) Lord BROUGHAM objected that this measure would afford no relief to the temporary pressure, while, on the other hand, it would create a permanent difficulty. He reed's mended that it should be limited in its operation fee nos year, or some other fixed period, and if found to on e k usefully, it might then be renewed. Gr eet would be the responsibility, and great as would be the peril to the public peace of doing nothing on the ocessioa, it would be a mere jest compared to the peril of sending ore, to Ireland a bill throwing on the occupier of the Lai the whole burden of this law. Lord COLCHESTER should support the second reading believing it to be the duty of every chrittian community take care that no one perished front destitution; but he could only support ths principle of out-door rilier on the mode:- standing that it should be only given when the workhouse was full, and there were no othsr means of affording relief- The question, " that the bill be read a second tame," was then put, and carried without a division; sod after a short conversation it was arranged that the committee should hs taken on Thursday next, and the committee on the Encum bered Estateallrelamd) Bill on Tuesday. Their lordships adjourned at half-past 12 o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—TUURSUAT, APRIL 29. The SwrAuss took the chair at four o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. PF,TMONS.—By Mr. Spouses, from the Doke of Nevemle, against the Manchester and Leeds Union Railway bill; then mi. time against the York and North Midland Railway Brandies bill. R EPO RTS. —Claridge's Patent Asphalte Compel; Colchenter Stour Valley, Sudbury, and Halstead Railway (extension hum Laves. ham to Bury St. Edmuntl'a); Coackester, Stour Talley, Sudbury, sag Halstead Railway (Stour Navigation Piushese) ; kinockwar Mar. kets; Scottish V.quitable Life Anuirance Society; Woharhamptia the; Wolverhampton Rates; bills. THIRD READLNG.—Hartlepool West Harbour and Dock (Dock extension). LEEDS WATERWORKS BILL. On the motion of Mr. GRIENE thin bill win withdraws, and a new bill ordered to be introduced. MANCHESTER AND SALFORD W ITERWORES, AND MANCHESTER CORPORATION WATER WORKS BILLS. Oi the motion of Mr. DI. Putties it watordered that the committee on these bills have power to consolidate them into one bill. NEW WRIT. On the motion of Mr. TcrNELr. a new writ wee ordered for the county of Galway, in the room of T. B. Martin, Eio detected. BILLS FOR CONSTRUCTING CANALS AND DOCKS. Mr. W. PATTEN said that difficulty arose in at classification of canals sod docks bills, which sought for tha power of enabling companies to sell these undtreakism to railway companies. He wished to know how they were to be disposed of. Mr. STRUTT said that DO doubt they ought to be re. (erred to the railway commissioners. RELIEF FROM AMERICA FOR THE DISTRESSED IRISH. In answer to a natation from Mr. W. BROWN, Mr. LABOUCHERE read an extract of a letter from Mr. Everett, dated Cambridge (U. S.), March 26, and brought by Captain Forbes, who took the command of the J from Boston, and to whom the writer paid • wrl s rriZ compliment, as wed as to his crew, stating that the wad had brought in provisions about one half of the amount raised in Boston, and some villages in New England for the relief of the Irish. The sum already subscribed had reached 100,000 dollars, and another cargo would shortly follow. The governmeht of the United States had placed the Juns town, a vessel of war, at the disposal of the Baton Belief Committee, and the right hon. gentleman added, the same government were about to provide another vessel of war, be bad been informed, for the conveyance of the WIEWINing provision+ to he purchased by the food which had bees collected, the Jamestown being now on her way back I. America. The statement was received with loud cheers. REVENUE AND PUBLIC ACCOUNTS. Dr. fiiiiiiiiiiiti;;;;Wp;;;Tilie following reodutiotu, which he said he would at once read, as they would best explain themselves. 1. That it appears by official returns which base been laid on the table of this home, that a sum exceeding 7,000,1001. sterling IA an nually 1 upended in the different department. of government, withoat being paid into her Majesty's exchequer, or subj. eted to ant prelimi nary parliamenta .n or motrol. 2. That It appears hy tee returns ordered to ry be printed is the last emsion of parliament, that gams amounting to 6,131,3841. 140.9, 1 A. were deducted by the varies. revenue detairtmente from their gross receipts, and intercepted in their programs to the exchequer, for disbursement m ter said revenue departments, in the year entline the Stia day of January, 111146. 3. That it appears by the same return, that in Na said year the stun of 909,6,11. Its. 2d. no received by maim. departments of °spew/nide, from maths independent of parliamentary grant., or issues from the ex. chequer, and that such sum has been or may be expended without previous parliamentary examination and control. 4. That hr de temerity of the public navel., and the accuracy, simplicity, and am plenthem M the public accounts, it to desirable that the gross receipts of all the departmenta of revenue should be paid into her X= exchequer. 3. That no department of expenditure should be I to receive money (roes any quarter other than her Mejestre ester quer, under parliamentary vote, and that all auto received he stores, km, fines, or from any other similar thanes, be paid Into her Majesty's exchequer. 6. That every department et receipt be required to prevent an annual eetima'r of eatiekdal expenditure, and that each estimate be submit., ed to the Midi= and approval of parliament. 7. That, no this house has, by its res. lutioos of but session, recognised and approved of the mineiple, end directed it to be adopted in the Crown colosies, that the grow rem aura should in all came be paid tuba the public ti easury, there to as suflicient reason for delaythg the application of the same prisciple the revenues of the United Kingd m ; and that this home creme la the recommendation made by the Commissioners of Public Atangle in the year 1831, " that no portion of the public trams. Mode le arrested on any plea or pretence whatever on its way to the aim quer; and that no portion of it sboald be issued from the =tomer without previous parliamentary sanction;' and "that it lately Pik adoption of this principle that any really efficient and ecespiete me tro! earsbe Introduced into the different departments of the peke entice." . . The ground-work of his resolutions was, that the fawner of receipt and expenditure ought never to be confounded, and that it was the duty of parliament to see that all tares reached the exchequer. The non. gentleman went into estate ment to show that large sums of money had been retained by various public departments as disbursements, which did not appear in the public accounts, the net amount being returned as the revenue of such departments. Ile contended that such sums ought not to have been so kept back without the sanction of parliament. Connected with this scheme was the of a better mode of keeping the public accounts, by seam ef the Italian, or double-entry system. ThO system was strongly recommended by the commissioners of 1831, sad was now generally adopted by . merchant. and buten. Al order had been issued for its introduction into the deport nients of the government, but he found that it wee not Ige troduced by the Home-office, the Colonial-Ace, the Board of Control, the Customs, or the stamps and taxes department& It became the duty of parliament and government totem their attention to this subject. He we. only asking them to unction a principle rec , srnised by the hiehest authority, sad the efficiency of which had been proved. Mr. W. WI LL IA MS seconded the motion. He looked ups this question as one of high importance, and he meld Mess how the government could resist it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER odd ere not his wish to controvert the principle laid dowels, dM commissioners in the report to which the hon. weedrelbr Bolton referred; but it was found impracticable based their recommendations into effect. From time to timere advances had been made in the direction indicated hr hon. member of simplifying the accounts of the sealeff• It we. only last year that a great improvement WI Moir traduced by the right hon. gentleman who peseedsiNO with respect to a more correct audit of the naval eggshell.. (as was understood). That improvement had heenesimd! to the army, ordnance, and commissariat departs/di es he regretted that his time was so taken spies leasse tenni by other matters, that he was not able te duds mad attention to the subject generally. (elear,hesz.) Astellele the appropriations in aid, there was a very great indemsee for the officers to be careful with respect to the di __.1111.0 The hon. member for Bolton complained of blilese.. expense under the heads of damps and taxes. He tdr _ bear in mind, however, the increased r evenue esi= g e . those departments. In 1836, the amount wenll whereas in 1846 it reached 17,0.10,000 f. ; and dm ' for collecting was in favourer the latter year. WA the complaint of the hon. member for Coventry be post-office expenditure, the cause of the inemmee apparent. (Hear, hear.) If increased accused= provided for the public, there must necessarily be expense ; and there was no change which he ore approved than that with respect to letters. Tbs sr bi rt member had stated the cost of the general esilidas fat revenue in 184.5 at 131 per cent. In 1846 it was 8 . N I Ile would not enter into minute detail. Agredg was desirable to introduce improvements in the feeen e department, he contendfd that many of the statemodo., were not to be relied upon, and that there could May es' tape in proceeding hastily. Mr. HUME did not see why the public Mold sistham • ' general account of receipt and expenditure Ali OS children might understand. Sir G. CLERK said the object of the hos. Mobli Bolton was to provide that the entire receipts oder ON department of revenue should, in the first inseam" nutted to the Exchequer, and that whatever psysiso required to be made the money should be Mogi eel= Exchequer itself. To such a proposal he could il is r i ; assent. The payments were made at premed I known regulations, and the greater portion oftbge.„ ... tt i the authority of acts of parliament. The senate receipt and expenditure desired by the hen. mienleggi nor in substsnee be found in the accounts if thsy gee examined. je suss Mr. F. BARING agreed that in may lig possible to improve the mode of keeping segesset'''' had no doubt that as opportunities occurred dte given would give their attention to that subject. Sir J. GRAHAM could not doubt for a messee e el LI system of double entry was the proper mode of igrii i _l:a accounts of this country. He had himself been in introducing that system, and the present admiai ',~