The Express. — London, England, 1848-06-21 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE 1F COMMuNS.—Tues.)Ay, JUNE 20. The S eßanitll took the chair at 4 o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. SECOND READINIS.—/arrners' Estate Society (Ire)an ; I tick's Estate; ells. TIIIKD REAOlNOS.—Caledonian Railway (branches connecting the ei.1.1.1:110 Junctl fn and Wishes: and Colter. Railways &c.) ;o ; Walsall Improvement and Cemetery (N o. 2); Wishaw and C Railway (des iation connecting branch and improvement); Bills. PErITCIONS. —Petitions in favour of Mr. name's motion for pm liasnentary reform ware presented from a rust number of places: but any lit given would be necessarily imperfect, from the circum stance of their twine In numerous instances preecnted en i .e.., and from eases th linpiroindity of hearing correctly in all the places (when named) e from whence they proceeded, or their numbers I CALEDONIAN RAILYDLWA E) Y (BILL. BRANCH ACROSS TIIE C On the m , tion that this b.ll be en grossed, Mr. HUME raid he felt bo und to o p pose, on the ground that it would injure the navigation of tke river. Mr. F. NIAU LE said, that in far front the navigation of the river b, iota impede d by the cawing of the railway across it, the first commission that reported on the subject gave their oninim that it would not be in the least injured. ins passa4e of the railway was above Glasgow bridge, beyond which no cralt went. The Earl i f LINCOLN believed that the Admiralty must have been under so me misappr e hension when they withdrew their opposition to the bill. After a few words from Mr. LOCKHART, The house divided—Ape' l9 Noes 129-110 GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY EXTENSION BILL. On the motion Cr consideration of the report oa the Great Western Railway (loop line tor the Birmingham and Ozford Junction Railway through Leamington) Bill, Mr. LABOUCHERE presented petitions from Bath and elsewhere, statin,f that Ibis company had not kept faith with the pble in rt,pect to a reduction of tolls, and ayin the ! house s to past no measure relating to the Great Wes g ter: Railway until such reduction had been made. Mire some observa•io , A from Mr. E. Denison, Mr. Labouchere, Mr. Christopher, Sir E. 114 ts, and Mr. Monte, the report was conaered, aome clauses added, and the bill ordered to be engrossed. LONDON AND SOL7TII-WESTERN EXTENSION RAILWAY BILL. On the mnti ns br considering the report on the London and Siuth-Western Railway Company, and Southampton and Derclie.ter Railway Company Amalgamation Bill, Mr. BERNAL said this bill involved rather a loose princi ple • namely, the confirmation by t he house of the purchase Of ;bares by one line in another. As the committee, how ever, had pa-sed the bill it was not his duty to do more than call attention to the circumstance. It port cocs:dered, clauses am , nded end inserted, and bill, as &mited, ordered to be engrossed, WRITEHAVEN AND FURNESS RAILWAY BILL. On motion to consider the report on the hill for the exten sion or deviation line from Sdecroft to Foxfield, Mr. BERNAL said one of the clauses of this bill was vary ob'ectionsble. r. HUDSON defended the measttee 48 it stood, and the bill was considered, emended, and onhere to be engrossed. BRITISH SPIRITS. d Mr. FAG AN begged to ask the Chancellor of the Exche quer orb. thee he intended Pe give the manufacturers of British spirits any advantages to compensate to them ter the reduction which the government announced upon spirits the produce ot'the Dritish West Ineirs? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER etid, he had already introduced a bit for removing some of the grounds of complaint alleged Ay the distillers of the three kingdoms, and lie was turther cousilering the ect, with the view of rentevMe re.trictioue, except those which were deemed necessary fn te velure purposes. THE DECIMAL COINAGE. Dr. BOWRING asked the Master of the Mint whether any_ progress had been made with th e decimal coi n age ? Mr. SHRIL replied, that a commission was now sitting on the subject, and until they reported, it would be extremely difficult to enter into a new contract with the moneyers. EXPULSION OF ENGLISH WORKMEN FROM FItANCE. Mr. B. COCHRANE wished to know whether any corn pensatinn had been received or announced from France for the Eeglish workmen who, on t heir expulsion from that country, hee been deprived of the money they kad lodged in the savings banks? Vi , c..unt I'ALMERSTON said there bad been a corre spondence on the subject between Lord Normanby and the French 20Tkroment, and that the French government had promised t return the deposits of the English workmen in fufi, although • different arrangement had been adopted with reference to French depositors. The deposits, however, had not yet been refunded—(hear, hear) —and he had re guested our ambassador t) inquire further into the matter. Sir DE LACY EVANS suggested that in the meantime it would he extremely serviceable to those workmen who were stem. to proceed as emigrants to various parts of the world, if the Colonial office would advance them some money upon the contingency thus intimated by the noble Viscount. Viscount PALMERSTON said he would mention the suggestion to his noble friend. WEST INDIA MAIL. In answer to Viscount INOBSTItE, Lord J. RUSSELL said that the West India Mail would not be delayed beyond to-morrow (this day), and he could give no promise that a government war-steamer should be specially despatchedCAPE afterwarGOOD HOPE.ds with the result of the debate. OF In reply to Mr. GLADSTONE, Mr. IIAWES said that the papers respecting the Cape of Good Hope were in active preparation. and should be laid on the table of the house at the earliest possible moment, PARLIAMENTARY REFORM. The SPEAKER intimated that this would be the most con eenient time lor receiving petitions with reference to the motion of the hon. member for Montro-e, which stood first on the piper. Mr. P. MILES said that the hon. member for Bristol had presented !several petitions on this subject on • former occa sion from Bristol Would the hon. member inform hirn what was the number of those petitions, and by how many persons signed ? Mr. H. BERKELEY said the petitions presented by him from and which were termed " liume's Family Peti tions a sough)—had been le.) in number, signed, on the average. by six persons each. He had five more to present that evening. Mr. HUME (alter the presentation of a vast number of petitions, which occupied the house for upwards of an hour rose to twint forward the motion of which he had given notice. He said—After the exhibition which has taken place this evening, and which also took place yesterday evening, I hope I may be allowed to say that there is some interest taken by the country in the question which. I am now about to submit to the house—(loud cries of " Hear, hear")—and further, I mast ebservo that, to my knowledge, no arrange ment whatever has been made loy any one connected with the committee to which I belong, tending to cruse that exhi bition. As far, therefore, as I know, it has not been at all the result of any organisation ; and if so, I consider that, by the various petitions which have been pre sented this eveniag, the short speech ot the noble lord on a recent occasion has been folly answered—(hear, hear) —while they justify the opinion I entertained when I un dertook to submit the question to th t house , which I can assure the noble lord and the house I undertook to do with the greatest reluctance, because of the importance of the ques tion itself, and the pressing nature of the business already be fore us. But it is known to hon. gentlemen about me, that it was tee their suggestion and not my own, we came to the determination of doing :o in order to avert threatening evils, and to prevent the community at large from adopting opinions that seemed to be at variance with and acts that seemed to endanger the public peace. (Hear, bear.) Although requested by a considerable body of reformers before the loth of April to bring forward the question in order to divert the attention of those who leek so long agitated for reform from :acts of violence it was not until aster the 10th of April we agreed to meet and consider whether we could prevent the necessity of re contact being had to such means as were resorted to in the metropolis on that day. It will be recollected that the public peace was then threatened. In my opinion the alarm was much greater than there was any necessity for ; but the occasion exhibited what may be a lesson to other countries, namely, e readiness on the part of every class from the highest to the lowest, to come forward in support of peace and public order. (Hear, hear.) I know nothing more important to the peace, prosperity, and welfare of any count than the maintenance of magisterial authority and the supporting of the civil power, instead of having recourse to military measures. But my belief is that if, Oil the occasion I refer to, interference had [come necessary, the civil power, aided ne it was by a universal desire on the part of the inha bitants to maintain the peace, would have sufficed. Even en that ground I think the house ought to bear with me on the peewit' occasion, and not refuse to consider what it was that led to the alarm of the 10th of April—what it wee than caused various breaches of tempeice in different parts of th country during the last ten years, and terminating in the crisis of the 111th of April,—to co.. ider also whether there existed on the part of the radical ref vmers called chartists any just groped of complaint,--whether they ,who formed a much nitre numerous portion of the cemmeoity than those who hae a voice in the re; -7wntati• e of members of parks. meat were me jeatiiitel • an te. nsion of the suffrage, ea tar rarliamentery ref. .•, at... .. so—whether it is nut the duty of this house to attend to their complaints, and to renindy it. ( Hear, hear.) I need not remind the house that our position, es well as that of the working classes, has beeu much uttered by the events which have taken place in neighbouring countries. Hitherto we have stood prominently forward amongst the countries of Europe, as containing a better constitutional government than any other, as possessing a House of Commons fully representing the people, and as having the power, through the agency of parliament, of carrying all measures e neemaary for the welfare of the country quietly and peace aLle, and without recourse to military interference. Al( the other countries of Europe were distinguished by• military government, some of them by a mill. tary despotism. Pit w@ yensidered ourselves, and were, a civil cation, arse ,apported our institutions without baying recount. '..c) other than civil means. It bas ever been saie, and her We're I think truly said, that our military forces him been required more for maintaining our foreign goes then for any domestic purpose. lam not one or Z e e s ; who think that we ought not to have • proper military es tablishment, or that we ought to depend entirely on the civil power. I think we ought to have • fair divi sion of lateour and distribution of ocenpation ; but I think we have gone far beyond the exigency of the case, both in a moral and political sense. We have, in fact, become a military .earion, and seem to be fast sewing to wards that system es.kich has overthrown the dynasties of continental (reentries. (Hear, hear.) I think the time is now come when we ought . s o examine whether there are jam: grounds for that discontent vision emote amongst oo large a THE EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY EVENING, JUNE 21, 1848. quoted by a noble lord during the passing of the reform bill. It is that of Sir T. Smith who In the time of Elisabeth said the - . the consent of parliament was taken to be the consent of every man In the kingdom. Hew can we take that to be the cue when we see that every flee out of dlx are precluded from any share In giving that convent ? We aro only asking what is a right, not what is a favour; for in former times it was held to be a Helot. I have another authoris, that et', Lord Brougham, who, in the year 1937, brought in a bill, in the fourteenth clause of which, treating of what he calls edu cational suffrage, he provides that all persons rated for the relief of the poor, for any property in the pariah or townland for twelve months previous to the election, shall be entitled to voter. Such persons were to be entitled by that bill, if it passed to have the suffrage ; it would have thu s in. eluded many who aro now excluded from voting.. Thera was one definition which was made use of by Lord Grey, quoting hom Whitelock, he having been stated to be one of the best authorities. He said that when any question of elections was brought bel'ers the House of Commons, the inclination of the house was to favour popular elections, judging that the more free they were, the more c.deulived they were to promote the interests of the community. In many borough+ such is the case. You all recollect that scot and lot was an old and ancient practice, until we encroached on the rights of the people at largo by our unjust rules. I am only citing these authorities to show that up to this hour we have deprived a great number of that right which the rules of our constitution freely give. On the 30th of May, 1793, a rose lutinn was paw al, stating that every individual referred to by Wbitelock ought to be entitled to a vote for a repre sentative in this house. The Hampden declaration, published in 1814, provided that any person paying church taxes should have a vote. When we exclude so many of our fellow-country men from the right of voting, we should consider whether or not we arc the aggressors—whe ther or not we are the parties who d•ive the people to insub ordination and violence, and whether we ought net to con sider in what way ee could remove that discontent that now exists, sud render the basis of the constitution as wide and as broad as possille. Such a proceeding is more likely to make the throne stable, and to m eintain the institutions which were worth preserving—for there were some of them not worth pr serving—against all the chances of being die turbed, which may arise tram such feelings of discontent as have been manifested throughout Euro_pe, and as now mani fest themselves in our own country. What is the actual state of our representation? I have here a. number of tables, which show its situation in Engle& Ireland, and Scotland, which prove the gross inequality widen exists with regard to represen tation, and how the interests of the many may be injured by the power of the few. I final by the returns in 1841 that the gross population of Great Britain was 16,000,000, that of Wales being 911,000, that of Scotland 2,060,000. The num her of males above (testy years of age was above 4,100,000, and of that number there were only 1450,000 bond fide elec tors. That being the case I ask whether it is poiseible that I we can have any thing like peace and order while so great a number of individuals are excluded from the right of voting without any fault or crime of their own? The inequality is so great and monstrous that common sense is shocked at the idea of calling it a fair representation. Mere the hon. gentleman read some document., °annoying the number tat electors in the boroughs surrounding the city of London with that of several towns in England, whore populution and whose electors were much less, yet they seat as ninny representatives to parliament. Ile then produced u contrast drawn by the late Mr. O'Connell, in which he proved that some of the smallest counties I in England, and containing the smallest amount of population, sent more members to parliament than many of the largest and most thickly populated wwitied in Iceland. Kildare, Leitrim, lkiwnshire, Galway, and the county of Cork, whose respective 'smut:Mona far care dad that of West morel:mil, did not send no many representativei to parliament.] The people of this country ere becoming more alive to this subject. 1 received thisenerning a letter from Recheste r, which shows the inequality which exists in the county of Kent. The time is arrived when we can no longer shut our eyes, when we must take the subject into our consideration , and devise a remedy fur the injustice. (Hear, hear.) I have a great many similar instances of inequality, but I will not trouble the house with them. I think I have stated enough to show that we are bound to change the present system, that we must open the doors to those who are now excluded from the franchise, and that we must have a more equal dis tribution of electoral districts. A publication by Mr. Alexander Mackey has lately come out on this subject. It gives an analysis of the house and of the representatives in the most complete manner possible, and I advise hen. gen tlemen who wish to be informed what the present system really is to consult it. (Hear, hear.) He takes 22 boroughs , with an aggregate population of 100,000, returns 42 members, that is one member for every 2,390; then 20 others, with a population of 3,780.000, returns also 42 members, that is, cote member to every 90,000. 13 the same uterine, he analyse+ the boroughs with consti tuencies under 300; and I beg to call the attention of the noble lord to this point, because when the Reform Bill was passing he pledged himself that every borough should have at least 330 electors. I will now draw attention to the dispro portion which exists in the representation of counties. One county member in England represents 32`90 electors; in Wales, 2,700 electors; in Scotland, 1,153 electors; and in Ireland only 1,078 electors. The same disproportion exists with respect to boroughs. In England a borough member represents 1,048; in Wales a member represents 7x5; in Scotland 1,260 ;in Ireland 1,680. I call attention to these matters, in order to satisfy those who are of opinion that every irregularity and inequality has been done away with. I am aware that no arrangement cars make the numbers mathematically correct, but something may be done to esta. blish an approximate equalisation. (Cheers.) We see that in other countries, alterations are mode every ten or twenty yearn, according to the increase or decrease of the popula tion in different localities, and this was on the wind principle that the parliament should really represent the people. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member then pro ceeded to name 8 petty boroughs, which may be, and are, frequently purchased, sending 16 members to parliament, who paralyse aad neutralise the members who represent the capital, the intelligence, and numbers of the metropolis. (Hear, hear.) All the influence of the metropolis is counter balanced by the members fur those 8 boroughs, who are r. turned with little trouble but at gnat expense. (Hear.) But the present suffrage is based on no fixed principle. Hon. gentlemen may not be aware that, though we have a 101. suffrage as a standard for boroughs, and a 40s. freehold suf frage as a standard for couaties, we have 85 different kinds of suffrage in this country. (Hear.) It is scarcely possible to believe the confusion, delay, and expense which so many different kinds of suffrage occasion. (Hear.) What we ought to do, therefore, is to render the suffrage as simple, as general, as easily obtained, and as easily defended, as pos. sible. (Hear, hear.) The very reverse of all this exists at the present m ment • for we have only a complicated, restricted, ditficubly-obtained, and difficultly.preeerved, suffrage—one attended with great ;ex pense, not only of money, but of time. I therefore counsel the house to adopt a uniform system—one for boroughs and another for counties. I will not Mete the various kinds of suffrage which prevail at present, hot the list is drawn up by a barrister, who has made the subject his study. It can not be wondered at that men who may obtain the suffrage will not undergo the expense, delay, and annoyance which' are occasioned by the present system in order to possess it. (Hear, hear.) By adopting a mere sensible system we may get rid also of the expense of regis tering electors. The result of all this is that' the people do not think themselves represented by this house. (Hear, hear.) They find that the votes and pro- I ceedings of this house are altogethe r at variance with their best interests—they find that class interests are attended to, and that the political parties who aro connected with the aria tocraey are those who are always in place. (Hear, hear.) They find that the agricultural interesthas been particularly attended toe—that it bas been especially exempted from taxation. 1 om not surprised at this, and 1 only wonder that they did not favour themselves still more, be cause, till lately, no person could have a seat in this house who had not 3001, a year in land. The tame system prevailed for Ireland ; but in Scotland a better system prevails, for there every elector is entitled to be elected. (Hear, hear.) I cannot see any just reason for excluding any man from this house whom the electors choose to send to it. I certainly do not think that their Be le ction should be void because the person does not possess 3001 a year. lam not surprised, therefore, that discontent should prevail and dissatisfaction should be expressed against a system which it is in our power to remedy. I will not now speak of the great increase of taxation, but I have no hesi tation is saying that by a better system we might save one-third of the expense which our navy, our army, and our colonies now cost us. We proved, alter the reform bill, that the expenses of the country could he brought down 7,000.0001. or 8,000,0001. I beg of hon. gentlemen to read the return which was lately moved for by the hon. member (or Liverpool (Mr. Cardwell), and they will see how the ex penditure has been increasing year by year, million by miliion, owing to the indifference which has pre. vaile I of late years on this subject. The people of England were smarting under this combined in justice of WO taxation and exclusion trom political rights, and it was not possible that they could continue without dis content. Ido net see the right hon. baronet the member for Tamworth in his place, but I have an important statement made by him at the time when the 40e. freeholders of Ire land were disfranchised. Speaking of the suffrage, he says— " It is a vested right, but it is a right which is different from the right of property and other private rights: it is a public trust to be exercised for the public purposes. It is not lightly to be touched, but if those who enjoyed it did not perform the duties attached to it, the pubic interest required that they ehould touch it." And the tight hon. baronet did touch it, disfranchising 24,000 40s. freeholders of Ireland. Now, when we see what has been done of late years by this house, I think I am tight in saying that the electors have not discharged the trust repomel in them for the benefit of the community, but that they have violated their trust. And it is to prevent such proceedings that I would extend the suffrage. At present the electors' pockets are emptied by others. That is contrary to justice ; and what is contrary to justice cannot long continue. You must bear in mind that every voice in this house is sent to keep up the present ex travagant system of taxation. And st is the electors' own fault if they do not come forward to prevent that. You must recollect that before the Reform Bill we had this ad vantage—that there were two parties. The king was then in the hearts of two patties—tories and whigs. lie could not do as he pleased., lie could not even change his own miuistry as he wished. But from the day the 101, householders were given the franchise the power vested in them. At the next election they could place in this house men who would act up to what they wished. (An ironical " Hear, hear.") But I hope they will not be so selfish as on that account to wish to impede an extension of the suffrage. What is it that is urged against the radical reformers —against the chartist reformers? It is said that they 'petered at every public meeting and inter fered with every important discussion. I always ob jected to them, because, whatever opinions they may hold, I think they have no right to inter fere with the meetings of others. But I must say that when they SUS , their monster petitions treated as they have been treated is: this house I gun not Baptised at their doing body of the people ; and when, if we discover those grounds, we ought to take immediat e steps for their removal more effectually to protect the public order and to prevent outbreak. For these reasons I feel it is my duty to submit to parliament what I think will remove them. In the first place, 1 contend that the measure of parliamentary reform passed in 1832 has failed to answer all the purposes for which it was enacted. I should he acing unfairly if I en! not say that that measure, of which I was an ardent and lealous sup porter, tau done much to secure the peace of the country. (Hear, hear.) I believe, if no such measure hail been passed, that :discontent would have gone on increasing to such an extent, that nothing could have saved us from the fete of a revolution during the late European changes and disturbances. 1 think the bill of '32 was a wise and politic measure, I wish it hail gone further. It is because it did not go fir enough, and because it haft not effect, d the ohjects for which the c iuntry then struggled from one end to the other, that I think we are now called upon, after sixteen years' e xperience of it, to repair its deficiencies. (Hear.) I contend that the constitution gives to every man in the country a right to a share in the representation ; that taxation and representation ought to go together; and that those who can not in any way assist in the election of those who are to sit in this house, and to pass laws affecting their liberty and property, are in practice deprived of their rights. They are in tact deprived of that which distinguishes a freeman from a slave ; for, while the master of a slave makes laws for him and directs him in every way, a freeman has by right a voice in the diction et representatives to take care of his ieterests. If the parliament does not represent all classes it becomes a. bad engine, an engine in the hands of a few, of those whe have the power, aas aga t inst the many ; and if we are not to have a g ood parlimen we had better perhaps have no parlian ent at all. In countries where the military rule or where tho will of the government cc of a despot decides everything, they have no occasion for parliaments. It is because 1 have seen the evil arising from this system, because we have all, within these few months, seen what has taken place in consequence of !list system, that we ore anxious not to run the risk of driving to desperation those who are in reality entitled to share ot the representation. My view of the power which arli invent exercises is, that it should be founded on the broadest political basis. The crown being the chief magis- I trate for the conduct of the affairs of this c >entry, the government is constituted for the good of the community at large,—not of the crows, noS of too nobility, not of aey par ticular class but the government is formed it/ lnis country of king, lords, and commons as the best means of carrying on the government under and by the authority of parliament. (Hear, hear.) No act of the crown, or of her Majesty's mini-ters, can be, or ought to be valid but by the act and voice of the House of Commons. To place, therefore, the House of Commons in the highest pos sible power and interest of the country is to give to the largest possible numl;rr of our fellow-countrymen the right of electing these who are to exercise such im portant functions. Now, nun hon. members in their con sciences any that justi,:e is done to that large clam of un represented persons„ when we find that, at this moment, live out of ever:, six nearly . of the male adults of this coun try arc without any voice in the election of the representa tive ho :y? (Hear.) Out of fir , millions of males above twcuty years of age, there are registered, in round numbers, one million; and of these from 150,000 to 200,000 are doubly registered, having votes in different places; so that we may safely say that the number of males actually repre sented under our present system is little more than 800,000 or 840,000. (Hear, hear.) These 850,000 out of nearly six millions form a class separate and distinct; and all who have toot the privilege are placed in an interior situation, and deprived of the right which the constitution entitles them to enjoy. I call it a right, sir, and nut a favour; because every man born in this country owes allegiance to the throne and the laws, and he is obliged, whenever called upon by the civil power, to maintain order and preserve peace; and in return for this he entitled to protection for his person and pro perty, and a share of all those rights which the constitution gives him as an Englishman. At the age of 18, even at 16 I am informed, he may be drafted for Ute militia ; any day, in passing through the streets, he may be arrested and called on by the civil authority to aid the magistrates in quelling riots, and in maintaining at the risk of his life the peace of society. If thee was , any doubt before, the Consta bles Act, passed only two years ago, compels every person, under penalties, to obey and assist tho civil power on such occasions. If he is branded for the militia, by a conscription not vet abolished,— I wish it was,—he is liable to be dragged from his home and his family, and from all near and dear to him, when the service of the state requires it. And in return for these services is it too much for him—too much for those advocating equal rights,—to say that he ought to he placed in the situation which the constitution gives him ? I speak not of "natural rights ;" that is a phrase nobody can understand. (Hear, hear.) I speak of constitutional rights, of that which, from age to age, our constitution has been held by the best authorities on the subject to confer. (Hear.) Then what right has this parliament to close the door against this class of unrepresented men, many of whom are of superior talent to some in this house, and of much superior talent to may who vote for individuals to fill this house ? (Hear, hear.) I may venture to say that one of the most instructed clasaes of workmen, famous throughout the world for their ingenuity, industry, and ability, many also for their very superior acquirements, are shut out from the possibility of giving a vote, and of being considered free men. They are herded together, as though unworthy to be regarded as Englishmen, although they are constantly adding to the glory of their country as soldiers, arid to its renown as artisans. Is not that a sound and legitimate ground for the put and continued existence of discontent ? (Hear, hear.) I ask the house for a reason why a man in that situation should ba excluded from the franchise. It is not for me to state a difficulty ; I state what is the right of every individual; arid I ask those who keep the door closed against this class to give a reason fur doing so. There are large numbers of persons belonging to colleges in various situations, who have neither the 101. franchise, nor any other ; and it is matter of serious consideration whether we are not blindly going on creating and rearing discontent, and thus requiring one portion of the people to be armed to keep down the other. (Hear, hear.) Sir, it becomes a serious consideration for the friends of peace and order whether, with our eyes open, we will refuse the necessary means, when wo have the remedy before us, of pacifying, not as a favour, hut by granting the rights which we now withhold. (Hear.) Let the house consider what passed at the meeting at Manchester on the evening of the 10th of April, after the special constables had performed their duty. They asked each other " What have we met here about to day ?" "'l'o pre. vent a breach of the peace by the chartist." "And why are the chartists discontented ? why are they likely or desirous to break the peace ?" The answer was," They wax; a reform in parliament ; they consider themselves en titled, as Englishmen, to vote for those who make laws for protecting their property and lives, and lay taxes on the articles of necessity which they consume. And are you all content with the House of Commons as it now is ?" The general answer was "No !" " Then why show a readiness—instead of supporting the demand of your fellow men fur their rights—to become their oppressors ? You become their oppressors if, with the means in your power, you refuse to remove the discontent, and to place those persons in the situation which the constitution ought to give them, whereby public order would best be preserved." That colloquy ought to sink deep into the hearts of all who have power in this country,—none more go than the aris tocracy, whose great wealth and possessions render the main tenance of order of greater importance to them in every point of view. To the government this is of primary importance : every cause of discontent ought to be removed ; because it is perfectly well known that no commotion, disturbance, dis satisfaction, or dread of breach of public order, can take place without disorgani s ing the industry of the country, and interfering in some way with those pursuits on which we depend. (Hear, hear.) Therefore I appeal to the government, not as m en of property, not as belonging to the aristocracy, but as men having a duty to perform, by the oath they have taken to their sovereign, to advise and consult on the best means of benefiting the country, and preserving ;he public peace ; and I say this is a question for them individually, as well as in their capacity as members of this house. (Hear, hear.) Various opinions have existed as te the right of voting; and the Reform Bill has placed it on no fixed intelligible principle. let us see what have been the opinions of different indivi duals respecting that right. Lord Grey in introducing the Reform Bill, spoke as follows on the 3rd of October, 1831, —in describing the great importance at that time, o. satisfying the public mind and removing discontent I believe the present measure to be o measure of justice, sound policy, peace, and conciliation. I believe that on its acceptance or rejection depend, on the one band, peace, tranquility, and proapevity ; on the other, that state of political ilireatisfaction and diacontent, the continuance of which threatens all those disastrous consequence,' which must arise when ill feeling is engendered in the people towards the government of the country. • • . . . I, myself, on two dif ferent OeCalliolla, brought forward motions en this subject, believing then, as I believe now, some change in the representation of the people to he absolutely necessary, in order to give new vigour to the constitution, and to snake the Howse of Commons in fact, that which it professes to be in thiory, a full, free, and efficient representation of the people. If Lord Grey, who from his easliest days was a re former—who had witnessed the evils of rejecting reform in urn, and had borne testimony against the government of the day for refusing it—if he, when he came into. power in 1831, expressed himself in such language, ought not those who are his successors, and who were in office with him at that lime, to remember and weigh well those words, even it they have forgotten their own declarations of like import? (Hear, hear.) In almost ad his speeches, Lord Grey recognises the right of every person to be repre sented, in support of which he quotes t•e opinions of Sir George Saville, Lord Chatham, Fox, Grattan, Blackstone, Locke, and other distinguished men. There was a resolution passed in this house in the year 1812, on an election case concerning the borough of Cirencester, when the committee were desirous of knowing what defini tion could be given of a man's right to vote. A gene ral definition was given in these terms, that every male person of full age, and not subject to any legal incapacity, who should occupy any house or dwelling, making use of the house u his residence, should be duly registered, and be entitled to vote, provided he resided in the borough for a certain period. It is a matter of great importance that those who ridicule the demands of the people who ars anxious to ci;es:ii t:iel right should know what the opinons of very high authorities are on the sub ject. There is another authority in the ease of the borough of Pontefract, when the committee came to a resolution that an ' person who lived in the town for six months previ ous to the election aheuld be entitled to a vote. The non payment of rates and taxes formed no objection. What, I will ask, is the extraordinary demand that is made and what is that claim on which we are in the habit of tearing so much ridicule thrown? It was the decision of the House of Com mons in the case of the borough of Pontefract, and if it was the decision of the house then, i think it right that the pre seat house should recollect it, and I think that I am not to blame for bringing it under your consideration now. 1 have further to state an opinion of great importance, which was anything. I ass not surprised at tide adopting the mode of itself to the whole country, but the noble lord's language, ei w oe petitioning." That glen did not orieteate , as Las in proposing the Reform Bill of 1832, is se strong, and so Men n ail with me. It orighltatid with Mr. Liviney, of applicalde to the prese nt p ur p ose, that I will quote it, Protein; ' find lam glad to And that each petitions now curious to hear whet the noble lord might have to say, if he not only his name but his residence and his ad. has anything to say , in oontraeention now of t h e princip les s tf or re l ,ra. I hepe that rule will continue tabs foliowet. I hope which he so emphatically laid down then. Oa the Ist of no petition will come up to this bouse without it. There M arch 1831, the noble lord said : 1• we:c mistakes on a furzter occasion in esnsequence of the But *tut is the coat Wine cement? 411se whole h tszm t k er ea w ll lowly number of zealous people who gigue]. But there con be no for reform. That confidence , whatever 1,447;:5n: longer; ,, it for m erly =- mistake now. These petitions are signed by about twenty. I think tweaty a good number to fign a petition, and I hope p7c ed te i l l y .e in at tl an w w end. i =tever may be thought of the particolar sobs of 1 of Commons, I repeat that the coatideoce of the country ti, i no petitions will came up for the future signed by many the the construction and constitution of the house of Commons to gore, more or Isis. Weil, sir, I have now shown what are and gone fur ever. I would say wee. 1 affirm that it would be the evils of the present system, and that the ready remedy for easier to transfer the Smashing maaufactoriea of heeds and Man. them is to restore the constitutional rights of the parttes. cheater to Gnu , i: t. ein ,e d d O ti ltr i la e rum en th ,j oi th to re ove ztablzh h., tla o i a k, nfideni t T . Great anxiety has been expressed to know what is meant by chef to thin argument, tberetore, by seying, that if the quo' household maltase. I intended it to include all householders. non be one of right, right is in favour of reform ; if it be a question My definition is—that every male person of lull age and not o f reaaon, reason is in favour of reform ;ifit be a question of policy subject to mental or legal refiriuity, who has occupied the nail expediency, po li c y said expediency speak loudly for reform. whole or part of a house fur twelve months, end is rated to Nothing can he clearer or better than the expressions of the the relief of the pour, shall have a right to be registered for noble lord. They completely bear out all that I hove ad twe.ve months, and that every lodger shall atter twelve vanced in my arguments. The re is also another opinion of months' residence, hare a right to claim to be the noble lord, delivered by him on tee some occasion, to 1 rated—(a laugh),—and to be alas placed on the which it is highly important the country should at this register for twelve months. In Englaud, sir, there moment be referred, for I shell be able to show whet hie is a eye .elll of rating to the poor. We therefore, have all o piuions then were with respect to one of the most essential the apparatus and means at command I.y which all person* arguments upon which the claim for en extension of the may be known ; and all I want is, that there should suffrage is based. Oa the let of March, 1831, the noble lord he just so much residence as is necessary to separate thus speaks: the steady man from the vagrant. I know that my It will not be necessary an this_ occasion that I ehould go over the system will exclude many from the franchise, bat I believe areromen h ts w:hich have l lic:n so dee or n u t erl in f l ajor i o st r pa te rlime l att h ry it will include most who ought to be included. lam not error, thutst ofit is ilu ee ct q the itral argument on whic ' h e' reforni a ers ' most 7 thei e r aware of any practical dif fi culty In the way. By the pre- !ne c ciaim P° . Lookieg at the question, then, as a queetion of right, the en. sent law every man is rated as to the whole of his house, cleat statute i f Edward I. contains the germ and vital principle of our and there would be no difficulty in providing by set of mental consiltution. The 25th of Edward 1., c. G, declaree, in the I parliament that any man may have a right to be rated name of the King, that .. for no busiesw from henceforth we should in respect of the part of the house ho may occupy, It of e ou r ch %erne! _i e if r a t id e s, e taeloe m„ , e n d or p primet, but by the coro n, m e an audit may be personals this is not keeping up the . distinctiat be- .. f . , e n... , .ahl . i_ _ A ____ _ . _n_! ill . . f ‘e. vi hohereehl, ! tweett rights and property. I think too much en,"anietiiinetnillentnenen-.7.l,,,rz:zzce—,,x, p e ro llt i l .,. n n ni th i at . tom e difference is paid to bricks and mortar, and too little to or aid Mull be taken or levied, by us of ran keine, in our realm, with head and brains. You may have heard the distinction out the good willand an t e.t f archbishop., biabcpa each, i s arons, which Franklin drew when the question of property knighta, burgur:esit,.aeneit in th reemen of the land. Although some t i h a N th e e e edsc h i m ieted d or personal rights was agitated in America. " Uh, tote, i i t c : l s• atilt% in point of la ' : is it s wn u i l!' ' 'n or 2ed: i l e i n a p u i r e ll i :4,' i tl y ont r V;i: it said sOlllO one, " let property be rated." "By all t w on u net tio ti w un 'i of b) t . h )t e h co e tor tei dollars as the amount ? In that case here ' s a Gnu Stuart. TO revert again tot a moment to socient aa r means," said Franklin, ' and suppose we fi x five n o. d .eN tb i% e t da i k n r e f L ' o t t:th h n e e , coming across the bridge with a donkey :—liins now entitled of the commonalty of th e land thus declared necessary for the grant to a vote. But if the donkey dies on the other side he will any aid er tax wsa collected from their repre-entativeo t connoting cross the bridge again without a vote—so that the vote is the of any aid very each county, from each city two citizens, and ea as,'e, not the man's." Meier, hear, and laughter.) from .e I thetik it n•TI ' "' n o te '''. re to read seme further extracts The course, therefore, which I propose is, r to abolish all from tine mobi l' : lo Y rd's speech, s they directly refer to two new points, which, as we are informed, have been introduced into were kaoi.t differento single, r c ts gull i franchise. °u A s n i d n le b° t no uu ot h e i b ' e sil a d fra l id ° the plan of reform about to he proposed to the house, namely, of a large suffrage under this system. I he ld the vote by ballot and the shortening of the duration of per m] seat in this house in times of the greatest figments. The noble lord, in the same speech which I have difficulty through the exercise of an independent suffrage. already quoted to the house, says with respect to the duration During twelve or fourteen years I should utver have sat here of parlitment• : had I not been protected by the honesty o f a bod y of work- I cannot but take notice of some particulars In which, perhaps, 'his ing men, who returned me to parliament eleqiite the lairds measure will be considered by many to be defective. In the lint and a tory aristocracy who would nave done anything to get place, there is no gr ee it o n vieiun h f i o e rX4ie l lx . rte m. r ieeh du y cati d, o i n i s ete, f r e ar . li b rente. me out. I therefore offer the advice of experienc e when I n so th i r sr ' soe b e j..c we t h i:Ought w o uld be better to teasel, m i ke broughgro c re e d tin h d y th o le: the =one by any member oh.. may ebonite to take it up, than to r h y eee that . e e d I k a r r e g e b y constituency f eke ieee e i a likely es to bring it in at the end of a bill regulating matters totally distinct. b l e (° al u l w ur d e l Galilee of a court, or by hope of place. The schoolmaster is wi t h ou t saying, therefore, what is the opinion of his Majesty's =- abroad. The days of 183 a and 11148 are widely different. If nisters ecepecong that question, which I =self think to be one of the we had the large suffrage which I contemplate, and which I utmost importance, me to deserve r the utmost Ns idlita peon, we hope yet to see realised, because it is s so just u that I shell keep the large asure of re tom which is be I comehnds well. tiro from every other question, and leave the subject of the du= ilo not believe it can be refused, everything we go Con of parliamento to be brought before the house by same other Yen will increase the nun.ber of the supporters el order and member at a future time. of peace anal of the government, which guides its conduct by And now with respect to the fourth point—namely, the the principles of the constitution of the country. I have ballot. The noble lord in his speech on Introducing the first now stated the main object I have in view, the other points . Reform Bill says : 111 ing rather con di t ions. The extension of the suffrage le There Ii another question, sir, of which no mention is made in this the one point, the great point : the rest arc details. Ac- bill, although it, at mes e tt , , ,n oce s, u , li l i i es te v b eeia i r e c t. li the nun o l l ,e the ee cording to estimates which I have carefully formed I should count jt malei er,-alt;,ketan the at q es on leaselec " U much to recommend it. The ray that the extension of the suffrage which I contemplate 4 meat, which I have heard advanced in its favour are as ingenious as would add too millions and a half to the present electoral any that ever fell under my observation on any subject. Rut at the hotly, and not a man too much in my opinion. (Hear, some time lam bound to say that this house ought to pause before II hear.) The more there are the better, provided that those gives its sanction to the mesnme. admitted to the franchise are in themselves worthy to exer- Now these various expressions of opinions held by the noble cise it. It appears to me a monstrous thing that the men by lord and his colleagues in 1831 constitute a very weighty whose agency, by whose industry and zealous application to authority upon all the subjects comprised within the scope of labour this country has been raised to its present pitch of wealth the resolutions lam about to propose, and they ought to and grandeur, that these men should be precluded from any have great weight with the house. But I wish to be as shore in electing the re presentatives by whom the legislation clear in stating the views which I now support as the noble of that country is to be conducted. (hear , hear.) It seems lord was formerly in making his own views known. There to me that we must make our choice between a really re- ware, in Pel, doubts thrown out is to the sincerity of the presentative and a military government ; and, fur my part, noble lord in bringing forward such a Reform Bill as that I prefer the former. (Hear, hear.) The lesson presented which he . then . proposed. What did the noble lord reply to to us by the continental states should ring aloud in the ears those insinuations? He s aid: of of those who seek longer to debar the people from the en- I therefore thie_korl.t m d ilL ant i t i e n t s t y a i t ng lre thl e t o,Z . U e r w b : believed joyment of their legitimate rights. I myself, in my humble eh„,..,eftwereemeoas reform t . be beee,..7. I ray that we have a right to be capacity, will lose no opportunity of vindicatiug those rights, .e believed when we assert that it is not for any enlister std of our own so long as 1 hind the people prepared to claim them. lam ee bring forward the present measure, but because we are interested bound to explain here why the resolution I placsd on i n ;h e future %tetra?", of this ccontry, which welfare we conceive to the notice paper was so guarded and comparatively be beat consulted by the adoptieu of a timely and sue effective meagre in its language. We thought it better to ref or m. throw throw out at first only general principles, leaving it to A nd order to show more clearly how completely the views the country to say how far these should be extended ; the noble lord cot eli of ut *a • 1 dthe periodwhich Irefer and at with those no v advocated by the reformers, I will again and 1 think that, short as the space has been, the people - his sentiments . hive done this very emphatically, and have given a practical refer the house to his as to the basis on which ion ought to stand : answer to the statement of the noble lord with regard to the repr e e es se w n k t ke at k the stitutiem on • Ikea bean you must show that views of the public on the question of further parliamentary T you are determined n eo ot to be the representatives of a email clasp, or reform. ( Rear, hear.) It has been asked, on a former , ot a perimeter interest ; but to form a body who, representing the occasion, why we put all these principles under one (MOM' people, springing from the peonle, and srmpethiaing with the people, ties. The reason was this—that to have the suffrage ex- UM fairly call on the people to support the future burdens of the t e nded without protection would be a serious evil, as sub- couenetrtye e : and e to nte s e nu e r h lLw h i t th t t s e gture w tille . lice sp wlsic h h he i in t may jetting persons to influences which , unaide d, they ha ready to jom them heart and hand, and are only)ookIng, like them- could scarcely resist, and would place them in the poet- selves, to the glory and welfare of Engle= tion, welch I have too frequently had occasion to remark, Now let me ask the house, are not all the observations and of being exposed to the influence, not very delicately exer- arguments which 1 have quoted from the noble lord's cieed, of the masters upon whom they depended for their sub- speech applicable to the resolution which I bring forward sistence, and whose persuasions it was, accordingly, some. at this time ? (Hear, hear.) Have I not shown that the what difficult for their dependents to counteract with im- people are excluded from their rights as contributors to the punity. (Hear, hear.) 1 am encouraged in the course I taxes ; and do I not counsel you now, as the noble lord did have taken by t he expression of opinion, not of the working then, to cede those rights to the people so unjustly deprived clones merely, but of all classes, high and low. lam in- of them ? Recollecting the promises made by the noble lord formed that in a vast proportion of tee petitions which and his colleague+, all we now ask is that they complete those have been presented in favour of our views there eng agements; and we are therefore entitled to the support are the signatures of many persons who until of the government in the proposal about to be made Batt I a recent period have been staunch conscrvatives, but who must do the noble lira the justice to say that, when he in have seen reason to change their views with the changed a reduced the Reform Ball in 1831, he was placed in a great dif circumstances around them. I will add, that very many, ficulte as to the boroughs which were placed in schedules A indeed, of those petitions are headed with the n ^ raes of the and Li. The time has new come when the reform thus so clearly mayor, of the justices of the peace, and of the highest gen- defined must be carried into execution. If the government try of the respective localities. (Hear, hear.) Next comes refuses to do justice to the people—if the House of Commons the important question, bow this extended suffrage shall be justifies' the noble lord in excluding from their civil rights exercise 1. 'Janette the grossest inequalities have existed four millions of men—if, I repeat, the leeislature and the in this matter, relative to which the state of the boroughs, government unite in perpetrating these wrongs, then they and the state of the counties throughout the kingdom, is must be prepared for the discontent and dissatisfaction which 1 confessedly such as no man can defend. (Hear.) I have are sure to be manifested as soon as that determination is stated that it is our desire to apportion the representation I made known to the country. Let me refer her Majesty's more equally to the population; but we do not propose , in _ ministers to what occurred in 1793, when the events which this view, to cut up the country into electoral squares. took place in France led to a demand for reform. here. Look (Hear, hear.) This would be, in my opinion, adding very • at the measures which were deemed necessary to put that materially to the difficulties of the contemplated change. demand down. ltoco!lect the suspension of the Habeas I quite admit that every change is, abstractedly, an evil; and Corpus Act. Recollect the steps taken to coerce public therefore I say that no change should be adopted which, opiuion. Recollect the war into which the nation was upon mature consideration, does not promise to produce 1 I p unged in order to stifle and drown the voice of the re more good than it may do harm by the mere fact of change. formers ; and, above all, recollect the penalty of 600,000,0001. Ido not propose to divide the country into the electoral dis. which we are now enduring as one of the consequences of triets which have been spoken of ; nor da 1 propose, so far MS refusing that reform which, if it had been conceded at the I ant at present advised, to alter the proportion of members time, would have avoided a great part of the pressure and for England, Scotland, and I reland. Tb is must be for the house difficulty under which the country now lebours. No, sir— to determine. All I wish is that, as to counties, where one the aristocrscy, the King, and Mr. Pitt—the arch traitor to county has three times more population and only the same reorm, which he then persecuted as he had at the representation that a neighbouring county has, there shall I outset, advocated and even maintained the very points be such an alteration of boundary line* for election purposes which I now bring forward for the approval of the house: as shall make the representation of the two more appropriate If you wont do justice in this matter, coercion must, as a to the population. (Hear, hear.) I have here with me • matter of necessity, be resorted to in order to bring the people prepared statement of the population and represents- to submission. But then the question arises whether the tion of every county as now cohstituted, and a calcu- people will submit to be coerced in the same way that they When of what the average constituencies would be under the did under the tory rulers. Ne, no, they will not. Educe proposed change. This I shall be ready to explain tion is happily now too largely diffused to permit this result. to the house if it consent to my motion, and Therefore 1 ray, instead of coercion, do justtce to the people, the explanation will be as clear and demonstrative as it is and you will always find them actuated by a right spirit easy. Taking, for example as to towns, the letter I have read Coerce them and they will resent such treatment. The from Kent, I ask, where would be the difficulty of annexing working classes of England have more interest in prese:vieg three or four towns there which have popula.ion but no good order than you, the rich and propertied classes, have, direct representation to some other town which has repre- f or i n times of anarc hyi you can fall back upon your mean., gestation but limited population ? What has been whereas their labour becomes useless, as there is no demand for dome in Wales and in Scotland may be done it. Let the government, therefore, grant the boon that is fairly here. I myself represent five boroughs which have asked in time. If the noble lord and his colleagues are wise been joined into one electoral district. There would be no councillors, they will recommend the Queen to do this for difficulty in extending the system, where necessary, through- her own benefit. The people bad a right to that reform out the country, and 1 shall be ready, if the house will allow which he demanded on their behalf. Their patience was me to tiring in my bill, to show how easily the object can becoming exhausted bj the repeated delays and denials. In be effected. I think I can do this, so as to have no ground conclusion Sir, therefore, I ask the house to vote for the for complaint on the part of any men, who admits the prin- resolution lam about to submit. If it is agreed to, and I ciples of justice and common sense to a claim upon his atten- obtain leave to bring in a bill founded on it, the house will tion. This is my second proposition. The third is the not be pledged to adopt all the clauses sf thet bill. The ballot. I know, of course, that we hate had this proposition principal object will be to obtain an extension of the suffrage, discussed very frequently, and lam not disposed on the pre and in other respects the measure can be modified in any sent occasion to go into the matter. 1 will simply *avert to manner the house may think fit. If I have exceeded the pro what I think a very important and effective reason for it, in per bounds, my bill will be open to correction. If I have fallen noticing one main objection heretofore made to the ballot. short of them, and not gone far enough, other hon. mein- It is said that the practice is un-English ;my opinion is, that leers may go telier. But I do any, Sir, that this measure, bribery and corruption are practices far mare un•English. or some similar one, is the only means of satisfying the (Hear.) Again a noble lord, now in another place, told us country, and of maintaining public tranquillity. With these when we were discussing the ballot on one occasion that he remarks, and thanking the house for the attention and did not consider his tenants had any right to give a vote ad- patience with which my observations and statement' have verse to his views. Oa this principle we had better super- been received, I beg to move the resolution which I have sede voting altogether on the part of the people as a manifest put on the paper, adding the words, " all householders, farce, and at once apportion out the nomination of members which, by some error, were omitted in the terms of the of this house among a certain set of noblemen and gentlemen inted motion. The bon. member then moved the follow of given property. (Hear, hear.) But no; the people must - lug resolution, and sat down amidst loud cheers on all sides. enjoy the suffrage, and they must be protected in its exer- That this house, as at present constituted, does not fairly represent else. The rich and Wither class, the nearer they approach th e population, the property, or the industry of the country, whence the aristocracy,•cass• fy ever look ' at a vote without considering ban anon gnat andincreasing discontent in the minds of • large pr how it is to be appaed for party purpoece. The working lien of the peopt l ; anal it he te u t e trgo ,t re th e e x e r e e t i t li e n e t, with vie w to frachi ' ag e sh all he claw have no such feelings ; one out ol ten of tht rn are PO el n le d riTd na aa ti t o o include all ho holders; teat vans shall be taken eager to give an honest vote, and tee must protect t hem in by ballot; that the duration of parliaments shall not exceed three thi• generous purpose. (Hear, hear.) How stands the case year , ; and that the appointment of members to population shall be now ? An hon. friend presented this evening a petition from made mor e eq ual. upwards of three hundred workmen in one victory in favour Dr. BOWRINO seconded the motion. of my motion. What would be the position of these men if, The reading of the resolution was received with loud admitted to the franchise, and not protected in its exercise by c h eer .. the ballot, they voted counter to the wishes of an cm- Mr. HENRY DRUMNIOND cenfeseed that he had player, who thought proper to exert his power of expelling much difficulty in following the hon. member through them from his service in punishment of their honest con- many of his details. In the first place, he was not duct ? I really cannot understand how it is that able to satisfy himself as to whether the honourable gentlemen of station can refuse to the humbler dosses, on the member looked upon the elective franchise as a right pretence of some lofty feeling of honour, that protection or a trust, neither had he been able to understand what the which they take care to throw over themselves in their own hon. mccrtbsr considered parliament to be. At one time the club electioris. (Hear, hear.) No, let the poor man, under hon. member tale •.I of it as a legislative assembly—at an the shield of the ballot, go and give his honest vote, without other, as a porti iii ut the ixrcutive government. Neither the fear that his honesty may revolve himself and his family in could he understand the h ..n. member's idea of n commitee. ruin. As to the duration of parliaments, after the most mature The hon. member had !dated himself to have been one of a c o nsideration of the subject, my conviction is, that three committee appointed to draw up certain acts, that was to years would be found the best period to assign. As to gush- say, the present resolutions. Now a committee was gene- Cation, I am opposed to the impediment which the „ t hy understood to be a body delegated and appointed by exaction of a property qualification throws—in England, another body. What body had delegated the hon. member, Wales, and Ireland—in the way of the talent which might he (Mr. Drummond) had not as yet learned. (Protectionist otherwis; find its way, with public advantage, to this house. c l ient ...) In Scotland, as I have said, there is no property qualification: Mr. HA:NI E--The people. (Rear, hear.) the man who is competent to elect is competent to be elected. Mr. H. DRUOIMOND—" The people" was an abstract I myself have been repeatedly elected in Scotland without term. The only person who could properly act in the name of any property qualification ' • and I see no reason why the the people was the sovereign of the country. He did not principle circled out in (Scotl and should not be applied to the know that the hon. member had been sent for by her Ma two other kingdoms. These are the grounds on whien jests. (A lateeh • Bet letting these things pass, he could I think further parliamentary reform necessary. I state that some pi • rtes in • pamphlet of his own, written need not refer, in support of the principle I advocate, to the and published in 1529, recommeaded the shortening of par language of the noble !c'ed.—the principle is =Wed of :laments and the extension of the suffrage. (Cheers.) lie merely mentioned this fact to show that the subject to which he was eddreesing his observations was not one which was entirely new to his attention. Recent circumstances, both abroad and in this country, had given the subject a more than ordirisry value, and whether it was, as the hon. member had been pleased to say, that the speech of the noble lord at the head of the government had given it au impetus, or from some other feit:oo, it wet, uo doubt,' subject whialtthey would all be obliged to discu=s at their next elections. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Indeed, he believed he might say, in the language of that learned author, Hebreus Judaicus, it was a subject which lee who should not argue was a bigot, and he who could not was a fxoh I Cheers.) In the first place, they must consider who were the pereons who wi iv making thole demands ; end he wee sure that the largest end most numerni,, p ortio n throughout the country et the present moment csnsated of persons who, from various causes, were guile ricg th e deepest distress—(hear, hear)—and who were Glamourous for something which they hoped woad form a remedy for their present condi ion. (Hear, hear.) No wonder that they followed soy desperado—(conservative cheer.)—no wonder that tee y looked forward with avidity to changes in the con stitution. (Hear, hear.) It was in vain to argue with such men, and talk of the distribution of property, the depend. ence of labour upon capital, and similar doetriues, becatue they were not in a state to give them calm consideration. There were, however, people with cooler heads and hiller • bellies, on whom they would operate. There was another class, increased, doubtless, by the education which had latterly been se exteuded—he meant the class of intellectual operatives—persons enga ge d in all those trad.s and businesses in which science was necessary. All those persona were deprived of the eh ative franchise, and all were clamorous for it hut they demanded it one and all, in the hope t h at it wculd improve their physical condition. (Conservative cheers.) As to theories, they neither knew nor cared anything *beat them. What they wanted was greater enjoyment and In0f• wages. (Hear, hear.) But besides all those clamorous SW formers, there was a class of intellectual spcculeurs, doctors without patients, and lawyers wi•hout Insets—(laughter)— visionary dreamers of every kind. (Hear, hear.) Those were the men who wanted at the present mo ment, not only in this country, but throughout Europe, to turn the world into one great chaos and so to improve at once constitutions and their own pockets. All, however, seemed to have the strangest pos.ible notions of the principles of government. Ile held in his hand te e • • report of • meeting at which he believed the hon. member for Birmingham was present. It was a report of which h e had taken especial notice, because it had appeared in a very respectable journal, and was characterised so a model of what a reform meeting ought to be. Now, when be said the journal was respectable, he felt how hard it was to define what was respectability. Gentlemen when presetting ti. tions from their constituents always vouched for unit. respectability. (Laughter.) But what he meant when ing the journal in question respectable was, that it was et. ceediugly well written, and enjoyed a circulation, he believed one of the largest in England It was also one which warmly espoused the reform question. (Hear, hear.) The speech which he was about to quote from that journal re Daily News of June 2] was delivered by an alderman ot ir mine ham, and was in the following But of all things let the people be true to themselves; let there he no disputes about mere words; for himself, ho had no hesitalott in saying that he was a complete chartist, nothing more wir kw; but was that to prevent him from joining hand and it oat in each a move. meat as this, lad log wide minor diflcri pubic for a puo. good ! ;Hese. hear.) He believed they were all loyal enough : knalanil hail flow risked under the system of a king, lard., and eennion• ; and although. if he were going to frame a new constitution, he might be disposed to dispense with we king end the lords, still he would rather endure ouch ills as those entailed than fly to changes which might produce tgoodshtd, havoc, desolation, and misery. kChners ) Let, bowie; the rulers of this counti y—the powerful in this country —remem. her that there was a spirit of endurance implanted by filsl in the heart of man beyond which he could not go. With a population on the verge of starvation, what safety and security are to be ex. pitted ! What the limits of end-ranee (mud he, may not be spoken, even though they were known: but, when the period comes that they are outatrebehed beyond their natural Inuit', farewell to the love of order which knits men together—farewell to the ties ci humanity' (Immense cheering.) Let Lord John Hassell bow,* at that hour. Great as are the evils we have to endure—pest as are the wrongs of which we have to complain—let Wan stand for "(watt, law, and order ;" not bating one jot of our firmness of purpnwe to obtain our just demands. (Cheers., 15e will adopt as our motto the threi words' have just uttered to you ; but if the time COMPS when the bonds which knit those together are runt asunder—it the prime minister and legislators hesitate too long —let it not le laid to our charge that we were the first to trample on social institutions awl to raise the simnel for anarchy. (Hear, hear.) Now he (Mr. Drummeind);would say, "What. ever they were going to do with the present motion. he trusted they would make up their minds one zed all to stead by our institutions. (General cheering.) They must not entertain for a moment the thought that the crown and lore, were merely evils which might be endured. Everybody, to be sure, had his partialities, and be must confess for Clot sell that there were institutions which he could part with more readily than either the one or the other. (Laughter.) But if hen. gentlemen thought we were rife merely because we had thme institutions, they might depend up mit that they were trusting to a rotten reed. The next thing to con. eider was, what were these persons who were now agitating for reform asking for. The hon. gentleman opposite said it was for an extension of the suffrage. (Hear, hear.) To that they were entitled. (Hear, hear.) lie was no party to the Reform Bill, nor had he much confidence in it when passed, but as it was the law he felt it to be his du y to carry it out. By the Reform Bill they took away all the former principles of the suffrage, and based it on the 10/. house; but there was no principle in 101. which there was not in 191. 19s. 6d. As to the basis upon which the franchise should rem, without entering into the various details which had been adduced by the hon. gentleman, he would say, se far as you could define property, there let the right of the franchise appear. It appeared that all parties were dine tistied with the present Reform Bill, though he doubted whether there ever was a time when the 'showing classes were so fairly represen . ed as they were by the present House of Commons. As to the argument about the preponderance of the ari.tocracy, they mu-t understand what was meant by the " aristocracy." In uncivilised sec sty the strongest were the aristocracy ; in civilised society, the aristocracy were those who, by their talents and wisdom, had obtained the highest amount of influence. (Oh.) But how could they define wisdom by act of parliament t The great object civilised society was to make men love peace whether they would or no ; and it was the duty of the executive, be they who they might, to put down all attempts at mob intimida tion. They could not enact equality. There was no equa lity in all nature. He confessed that it was, in his mind, a great disadvantage that the representatives of the people were not thrown back more frequently upon their consti tuents. (Hear.) He did not mean in the °ltemise) way of going ba t to be scolded and turned away. In this re ap: et he considered the house was too much disconnected from the people. He was therefore favourable to shorter parliament• than seven years ; but he did not say whether three years or one year would be the betetr. But as the obi .•ct for which the Septennial Act was passed had ceased he thought they should reeert to triennial parliaments. He now came to the question of electoral district.. As he said before, he would recommend that the suffrage should be ex ti nded to all who possessed property, and whether they Wok the possession of a house or the payment of taxes as the test was immaterial; but they should not give power to those who had no property. There never had existed a society so constituted • neither in the ancient republics of Greece, in Rams, or el sewhere,l had there ever been a toed state so constituted. (Hear, hear.) They had heard much about property having its duties as well as its rights. What WAS the meaning of this ? It was the duty of every man to maintain himself in that position in society to which he be longed ; and as it was said of a nobleman not long ago that he would be ready to die fer his order, so it was the duty of every person possessing property to be ready to die for that property, and not permit it to be infringed by eel means, direct or indirect. (" Oh," and laughter.) Hon. gentlemen who were acquainted with the works of this country of the last twelvemonth—he spoke not of the doctrines of Louis Blanc and others in France—must be aware that there was perva ding a large body of our most intellectual operatives a notion that they did not share sufficiently in the produce of their labour. (Hear.) That feeling was gaining ground amongst them, and there was also another feeling obtaining amongst them to some extent—viz , that every owner of property WAS a public robber. (No.) Tussle propri. est rot was the principle laid down in France; and did they not hear the same principle put forwmd here ? (" No.") Why had they not heard of tenant right in Ireland? Had they not heard it asserted that the tenant had a prior right to the land he cultivated over the landlord? (Hear.) He contended that political power should be confined to those who had property, and those who had ncne should he entirely excluded from political power. He considered it also most dangerous to suppose, as indeed was supposed, that there was a necessary connection between an alteration of the con stitution of that house, and a diminution of taxation. He was opposed, as much as the member for Montrose, to extra vagance, and desired as much as him to curtail the expendi ture of the country. (Hear.) But he conceived that each question—the reform of that house, and the necessity of re trenchment—should stand upon a separate footing, and each be decided on distinct grounds. If it were to lie admitted, that a particular constitution of that house would secure a diminution of the national expenses, then would it amount to this, that it would be composed of represent dives who, to satisfy their owe petty and local objects, would sacrifice the national interests and honour. Consti tute the house as they plemed, and still it would have no power to relieve the distress of the people. It was, therefore, grossly deluding the people to tell them that any reform of parliament could give them food —t:.at anything hut misery was the lot of tae great mass of mankind, and that that misery could be relieved by any legislation what• ever. Lord J. RUSSELL.—I rise thus early to address the house because I think it is entitled to an explanation fro* me of the views I entertain, not only regarding this motion, but otner propositions to which it is nearly akin, and which, after the speech of the hon. member for Montrose, I conjec- ture are likely to follow it (as we understood). But allow toe to allude to the petitions which have been presented to this house, and to what the hon. member for bloatrose called ! the expression of a general op nion on the subject. Upon that I have to say that it does not ap pear that, except for the provisi,ms called the people's cbs er, there was any large or num.rously signed patitiou presented to this house in the early part of the ses sion. Regarding those since presented, and regarding those meetings which have been held to au; port the motion of the hon. member for Montrose, there are two remarkable circumstances one is, that considerable pains were taken to misrepresent a speech which I made some weeks ago—(hear, hear)—when notice of that motion was post poned by the hon. member, to the effect that I declared therein that the people wished fur no reform. I have seen it done with such care that in placards all the words which implied my belief that there ought to be reform were care fully expunged, and in some cases directly the reverse stated. Th' ,rerds I used were—" My belief is, that the middle and woe .ng classes desire that there should be a gradual pro guts of reform; that this house should give its attention to the questions before it, and that on peace and Una qtnadl depend their inter..it I do not deny that again, that I express Itt.e middle and work people's charter, _or rose • but that den] deels:ration against after having exclude desired a gradual pr I excluded no sne 6 iscal, nor any other to adopt. But so misconstruction of • log the hon. mem which began thus; his opinion that the political and fiscal 1 The hon. g!ntlemi rately knowing will pains. When that should have s..id, " I know it to be 60 move it aa it stands Mr. HUME.-1 fact, to my knowlrd Lord J. RUSSE which has attends They have been m, view of proposing s in this resolution to-day, and to and with the v house in supp came to a discussim some chartist has every peregg of ful to have a rdie, and else that, such a r in the meeting too attend accuratily the result of the n this movement, tli degree founded up place in parliamen be considered at gentleman the m Leeds, or Birmint other of the gn as a movement it in which the char where they had tl sidered as tavoural hon. gentleman, ti by dechiring that to propose in 1831 liament in 1832, h tag the peace of t accept that testior has beer. useful in lity, and in Tringi The hon. gentler people, moving those who would their awn intern: of carrying int interests of tin make the houy government mei find a fair rtpres , hon. gentleman's of their true inn represent them, general election The electors, is that they had it in the ma bad a better vie hul—(bear, hes representatives, views according not the dews tained. For, particular right ever right he all his notions, I representatives (Hear, hear.) that every man way should has every man of t taxes hod position were tr the matter—an limitations, his have nothirt t ledging that rii gentleman in I effect. (Hear.) include "all ho out by mistake; the word `• how residence, and understand, art ally rated, and poor. There i which, il.he h Sion, you have bear ) Here i Westminster ; that he is not book, and thee says, " I have a man 21 year that right, e any pretence and registrat forth." ( Hf qualification e that the hon in bringing in were somewh , applied as the least I went c not leave any the propositio The hon. gen tore; it is of When the ho lodgers who understand h include. Mr pert of a fern stituent body millions of p only one mil sentation. carried out without heir some two Of of voting, srl gentleman I. that you ha and that it those who I: entirely fro proposed re people heal the whole I governmen possible foe should be t lature, the see that th But if this ferent fore philosoph, the main c institution people, yo about the to keep in tution ; tl constituti. the beneti greatest a tit writing exactly in quote: " of aristoet conbinep not efl , 11: pass it a a great and justil almost bl the excel country had thas , be combi it has ha I confer,'