The Express. — London, England, 1852-05-04 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LOItII3.—MONDAT, Mai 3. The boon not at • quarter before o'clock. ROYAL ASSENT. The rayed assent was irises by COCAMis4IOII to the following bills (the royal comm:ssioners were the Earl of Leetsdale, Mar quill of Salisbury. and the Duke of Menstreas);—Exchequer Bills, St. Albans Diafranchisement, Sheep Contagious Dis orders Prevention. Mansfield Gas, Liverpool Museum, Wolverhampton Or, Tetley Drainage, Sewage Manure Company, East London Water Company, Scarborough Market. Their lordships then adjourned during pleasure. The house resumed at o o'clock. Lord limas/Deal sat Speaker. PETITIONS PRESENTED. Tl4ll New LAW OF ETWINen (SCOTLAMD) BILL—By Lied CAMPBELL, from the Royal Harsh. of Scotland, in ocomatara assembled, in favour of the New Law of Evi dent, (Scotian:l , Bill. Tee 1111011.ATION SIVIT..—By the Duke of RICHMOND, from the town council of Chichester, fur the better regulation of bear shops. Tits OMANI' TO MATNooTII.—By the Duke of RICH MOND (several), from Aberdeenshire and other places; agatast TIIE IRISH BOARD OF WORKS. The Earl of BOSSE, pursuant to notice, moved for the appointment of • select committee to inquire into the ope ration of the act, rolaf.rm to the drainage of lands in Ire land, as administenal by the Board of Works. The noble earl concluded a speech of some length by expressing his regret that he coull not hive the eminence of the noble lords who were on the Irish Consolidated Annuities corn miler, but as it was importaat that no time should he lost in investigating this subject, be thought it was advisable to ask for a committee at once. The Earl of DERBY said that the subjeet to which his noble friend had directed the attention of the house, was one of very considerable importance and extent. It was important as it was nothing less than that of providing an enter system of arterial drainage over is large portion of Ireland, clearing water courses, and in mane cases altering rivers and providing a sufficient outbid. by which large districts of conatry might be drained, in volving wee , . wily considerable operations and • large expenditure. The powers vested in the Board of it'orks were certainly very extensive, but they were requir,al to Ire so, is order to carry out systematically such large operations; and he admitted that being trusted with sorb large powers, they ought to be vicilantly watched over, not only by the proprietors of the land, whose inte rests were immediately involved, hut also by the public, who were equally int. rested in the proper discharge of their functions. Ile, therefore. did not intend to oppose the appointment of a c..mmitter. In doing so, however, he Bast beg to diwlaim all ilea of prejudging the merits of the case, or casting any blame on the °Miters of the Board of Works for felml , l which it wou.d probably ap pear were Named their contra'. The motion was then agreyd to. The Linen Manufactures, &c (Ireland) Bill. Poor Re lief Act Continuance Bill. and the Loan Societies Bill, were read a second time. WESTERN PACKET STATION. Lord GRANVILLE. pursuant to notice, asked whether it was the intention of the government to take steps for re moving the station of transatlantic steamers from Liver pool to Galway. as had b.yn reported in the Irish papers when giving an account of a deputation which had waited on the Lord-Lieutenant with that object. Lord DERBY repliid that the report in question had greatly misrepresented what had fallen from the Lord- Lieutenant, and that the government had no intention at present of removing the station from Liverpool. At the same time the subject was open to inquiry, especially if the submarine telegraph were brought into operation between England and Ireland, but even then he could hold out no expectation that Galway would be more favoured than Limerick. .tßer some further discussion it was agreed. at the sug Restless of Lord CLANRICARDE, that she memorials ad dressed to the Treasury on the whole subject should be laid before the house. COI'TRIGHT AMENDMENT BILL The bilr;;s7e;el; - thirel time and gamed. The remaining Inners of the day were disposed of, and their lordships adjourned at a quarter to seven. HOUSE OF CONINION3.—MoxDAT, MAY 3. Tbe Soma= tech the chair at a quarter to 4 o'clock. MEW MEMBERS. M. COM ilia the oaths and his seat for Taristeek, in 611 nun of lir. Trelawny ; and the SoLICITOII•GENIIKAL fee Zees in the room of Lord Rendlesham (to which Le war sleeted on Saturday last, and hoe since resigned the representation of Harwich), took the oaths and his seat. ROYAL ASSENT. Mr. PVLII V 4, the Yeoman Usher of the Black Rod, sammoned the house to attend in the House of Peers to witness the royal assent riven by commission to several bills, for which see Lords report. HARWICH ELECTION PETITION. The SPEAKER informed the house that the parties ye. titioning against the rs'urn of Sir F. Kelly for Harwich had intimated that they did not intend to proceed with the peti tion. A new writ war subsequently ordered, ow the motion of Mr. 0. W. Hamilton, to issue for the election e!a atert bet fur Harwich, in the room of Sir F. Kelly, he keying accepted the olive of Steward of Ilemphole, In Yoelubits. PRIVATE BUSINESS. . DILLS READ A Tllll.O Toes AND PAlllllo.—Kelvin Bridge (Glasgow) and other works; London, Tilbury, and Southend Railway; Porthdialleen and Nsnthwynant Roads; Southam to Kineton Road ; South-Eastern and Reading, Guildford. and Reigate Railways ; Bill,. BILLS MI AKTNDCD CON.IDIMND AND AOKERD TO. — Bedford and K,,nbolton Road ; Romney, Broughton, Stockbride, and Wallop Roads ; Shillingford,Walliagfcml, aad Reading Road, and Shilbrigfurd Bridge ; Wakefield sad Denby Dale Road ; Bills. SICOND RlADlNO.—Larabart's E'tste Bill. PUBLIC BUSINESS. PETITIONS PRESENTED. KATNOOTH EXDOWMINT ACT.—By Sir J . WTAG GART,Irem Wigtoeshire; Mr. G. DUNCAN, from Dun dee asd a place is Perthshire; Mr. EWART, from Dam fries; Mr. ANDERSON, from Orkney; Mr. SMITH CHILD, fees North Staffordshire; Mr. COWAN, from Ayrshire and several other parts of Scotland ; Mr. W. MILES, tom Somersetshire ; Mr. HENLEY, from Os • ford; Sir W. U. CRAIG. from Edinburgh Young Pro testant Society ; Mr. GREY, from Shields ; Kr. GLYN, from Kendal and five places in County of Westmoreland Captain FORDYCE, from Mlles bearers and members of Free East Church, Free St. Clement's Cherch, Free Trinity Church, all in Aberdeen ; Lord HOTHANI, from Naltfitos, Yorkshire ; Mr. G. DUNCAN, from the Free St. Andrews Church, near Duedee, and from the Free Church of Clunie—for repeal of. MILITIA BILL.-117 Mr. HINDLEY, from Ashton sader-Lyse ; Lord DCNCAN, frogs Bath AMr. W. PAT TEN, teem placer la Lancashire; Mr. EWART, from WhiN►aves,baaerter, and other places; Mr. J. ELLIS, from Leicester ; Mr. COWAN, from Company of mer chants of Edinburgh; from a camber of working man of the woe plan; Mr. HEYWORTH, from Derby ; Sir J. WALMSLEY, from a place not heard ; Mr. COBDEN. from Dewsbury and other places in Yorkshire; Mr. S. CRAWFORD, from Rochdale (several) ; Mr. W. J. FOX. from Oldham; Mr. J. CLAY, from Hall; Mr. BRIGHT, from Sunderland and various places in Sam. Suffolk, sad other mentos ; Sir B. HALL, from 3,0.10 is. habitants of Marylebone ; Lord 11. VANE, from Hartle. pool ; Mr. HORSMAN, from Cockermouth ; Mr. G. THOMPSON, from Tower Hamlets ; Mr. CROWDER, from Liskeard ; Mr. ADDERLEY, from the Independent congrrgatica of Leek, Staffordshire; Mr. HEY WOOD, from the employers and workmen of thirteen manufactories in Church, Accrington, end the vicinity; two from Pres ton, one from Calder Vale ; and one from Dunkeohalgh, its Lancashire ; Mr. M. GIBSON, from Spalding and other places; Col. RUMILLY , from the inhabitants of Canter bury a nd vicinity, against. Plll4 TTTTT lON OI 7141 CILTATAL PALACZ.—By .Mr. HST WOOD, from Bradford, Wiltshire, in favour of. TAXES ON FOOD.—By Mr. BRIGHT, from working men of Blackburn, rgainst the imposition of, or the abandon ment of tree trade. iCBLIC PETITIONS. Mr. Twoauutv brought up • report from the com mittee e• public petitions, stating that they had discovered that • member's name had been 'liked without his know ledge to a petition on the subject of the Crystal Palace, and recommending some steps to be taken to put • stop to a practice so subversive of the right of petitioning. PARLIAMENTARY OATHS. Mr. REYNOLDS gave notice that on the Gth of May ha would put a question to the Home Secretary, whether it was intended to bring in a bill to alter the law regarding parliamentary oaths, so as to allow persons of all religions, when elected, to take their seats so members of the House of Commons P THE WEST INDIA MAIL PACKET STATION. Sir A. COCKBURN said it had beta reported that there was as lateen°a on the part of the new Board of Admiralty to remove the West India packet station from Southampton to Plymouth. He wished to know whether there was any fousfttlea for such reports' Sir J. PAKINO'f ON replied that the subject to which the question referred was nut properly in his department, but he had consulted his hon. friend the Secretary of the Admiralty, and had been assured by him that no such iO.- tentiooezi.ted. (Hear, beer.) INCREASE OF MILITARY FORCE. Mr. DU PRE (on the part of General Reid, who wee prevented by indisposition from attending en his place,) asked the Secretary at War, whether her Majesty's govern ment had any intention of proposing to parliament to in crease the strength of our regular troops serving in Great Britain and Ireland Major BERESFORD said her Itle,,esty's government had no present intention to propo‘e any Inert see to the strength of the troops serving in (treat Britain and Ireland. SMITHFIELD MARKET. Sir B. HALL asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether any steps had hen token by the roe porgies of the ('ity of London for the removal of Smithfield heetitet, and whether any site had been lined upon for tho new market ? Mr. WALPOLE said the City had six months given them for considering whether they would adopt the provisions of the act or not. They hail signified to the late Secretary for the Home Department their intention of avail ng thenirelvel of the option given them. The lea. gentlemen, no doubt, wu aware that the Secretary of State had nothing more to do then to approve of a site fur the market, until IS months after the peas* of the act ; . after that, if nothing was done, the Secretary of State ailed direct the commi.,ioners spoointed tinder the act to lot it is kat* In comeamato of the Delia gives by the ~~ THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, MAY 4, 1852. km loareut"be e at s Wel a tiele hid made issa s e g e : t 4 l : t . • THE MILITIA HILL. alligi seggested' Il t d o .w the City=elliddll had tillit lega lli arelt ill.l - bills On the motion that the hoses *midge date essmatittee s od that every swarths hod bees g= t te Inser t Oa es this bill, thin, so that it woe bared *at I. a time a elite vestld Mr. COBDEN rose, and spike as Moen : Mr. Speaker.— 'I be submitted to the of State kr his grin& Had the majority in the division on the Based readies ei VOLUNTEER CORPS- this bill fairly represented either the population or the Mr. EVELYN begged to ask the Secretary of Stale for wealth of this *minty, I should not have ventured to Ain the Home t, whether It wee the Mention of the government to advise her Majesty to tempt the murices of one word spore, either to resist or delay the progress of the corps of ride volunteers, to be raised and maintained at measure ro . But I have the sanction of the Wheat minister of the cwn (or the course I have taken on this question. their own impetus ? Mr. WALPO E said that he had given answers to Mail. I have taken the division lists and analysed them ; and, L lee questions more than once, and he ilid not know that lie amongst that large majority of 2 to 1 who voted in favour could now give any fresh information on the subject. All of the Militia Bill, I end not the representatives of any he could say wee, that if the government thought it advise- of the large centres of intelligence, industry, mg ble that such corps should be established they would be wealth, of any of our large city populations. Is I ready to sanction theta, but how far they might be coned- the minority I find the representatives of FALB derrd necessary he was unable to say until he saw the pro- burgh, Glasgow, Manchester, Birmingham, Westmimter, grew made by the Militia Bill. Southwark, Marylebone Lambeth, Tower Hamlets, Finsbury, Greenwich—am largest of our beetugh THE BISHOP OF COLOMBO AND TIIE CEYLON constituencies ; elm, Newcastle, Hull, Soathamptou, OE CLERGY. ford. York, Stockport, Worcester, Sheffield, Northampton, Mr. TV/NELL, who was very inaudible, was under- Iluddenfield, Aberdeen, Canterbury, Montrose, Bath, stood to oh the Secretary for the Colonies whether ho had Dundee, Coventry, Leicester, Preston. The City of Lon pre received, and was pared to lay on the table, oopies of don and Liverpool were divided on this question. Leeds any correspondence relating to the Bishop of Colombo and and another piece were also divided ; but the two members the clergy of Ceylon ? who voted for the militia have declined again to canvass Sir J. PAKINGTON caid the government had received for their seats. Middlesex and West Yorkshire ore divided. such a correspondence, but it was of so painful and personal lean say for myself, knowing what is the state of public • characti r that he thought no good would be derived from opinion in West Yorkshire, that next to free trade, there is its being laid on the table of the house, and be hoped f or no one question on which I would mere fearlessly go to the prerent at least he should not be pressed to produce it. that constituency for re-election, than as an opposer of the The government had thought it their duty, in consequence Militia —,.. . n it (Cheers.) In addition to this test, wo have of that correspondence, t: hem no time in taking such 800 petitions against the bill ; and all the large towns in the et an as they conceived were necessary under the nrcum- kingdom are in opposition to it. We have not had one peti stances. titan nor one meeting in its favour. (Cheers.) I do not pre- LEGAL EDUCATION. tend to lay that the government is not competent to pro- Mr. EWART begged, in reference to a question he had pole such a bill ; but these facts afford fair ground, at all put on a former occasion to the hon. and learned gentleman events , w h y I should move a reconeiderationof the measure. the Attorney-General on the subject of legal education, Hear.) I wish these (acts to be known, not only in this to Pay that he had understood, by the we ( arer of the lion. country, but in a neighbouring country . I wish them to and learned geutlemth, that the examinations for persons know that the great centres of intelligence and population about to lc called to the tar were not to be compulsory. in this country do not join with these gentlemen in He should be obliged if he would state whether they were this house who call themselves statesmen, forsooth, to be Tullman' or compulsory? and who rise in their places—possessing great autho- The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the hon. gentleman rite on other questions which is evidently lost on this—and was correct in his interpretation of the answer he had given te ll us that we are in danger from our neighbo urs, and to the quiation. The examination was only to be volun - mum be prepared far an invasion by a hank of savages. tars. and not compulsory, but in order to induce students to (Laughter.) It is evident the great mesa of the intelli eutiinit to ouch an examination it had been thought aline- gent people of this country totally disbelieve it. (Cheers.) able to establish studentships :Is rewards for proficiency. How is it that the people out of doors do not on this CONSTITUTION TO NEW ZEALAND. question as on all others, where it is necessary, take prem. Oa going into the orders of the day, dente of this house ? (Cheers.) How is it that they have Sir J. I'AKINOTON moved that the orders of the day r.ot given us the lead ? (Hear, heir.) Simply and solely be postponed, which was agreed to. because they do not believe that there is any ground for an Sir J. PAKINGTON then moved that the passage of atom of alarm, and because they believe they have already her Majesty 'a speech from the throne, which related to made abundant sacrifices out of their resources, sufficient to granting representative institutions to the colony of New meet all the dangers thee may impend over the country. Zealand, be read. The following passage from the speech They think, after voting 15 millions of their money an of her Majesty we then read by the clerk at the table : nually—a sum which would build a Manchester or • Glas " The Act of ISIS, for suspending the operation of a pre- gow every year—that its the present state of the affairs of 'ions art conferring representative institutions on New the world there is no necessity why they should leave their Zealand, will expire early in the next year. I am happy profitable occupations and turn soldiers in their own defence to believe that there is no necessity for its renewal, end at a shilling a day. (Hear, hear.) I am going to deal on that no obstacle any longer exists to the enjoyment of re- the present occasion, not with your army, but with your presentative institutions by New Zealand. The form of navy, which we have been taught to consider the safeguard these iertitutious will, however, require your consideration, of England. The " wooden walls of old England" cost a and the additional information which has been obtained great deal to thiscountry ; and it is the opinion of the country since the passing of the acts in question will, I trust, en- that they ought to be able to pre tett us.We vote 61 millions for able you to arrive at • decision beneficial to that important our navy and naval establishments, including the packets colony." for the Post-office service; and I include thine, because in Sir J. PAKINGTON then moved for leave to bring in the ease of hostilities, the very brunt of the war would be a bill to grant • representative constitution to the colony of borne by those packets, which are larger than the govern- New Zealand. Ile had been induced, he said, to undertake runt steamers, and would be able to catch anything, or run this difficult task, so soon after his accession to office, in con- away from anything ; therefore I sty they are one of the sequence of the strong representations he had received moat melting parts of the navy. (Hear.) Going back to from persons iu this country who took • deep interest in the 1835, I find we open. only 41 millions on our navy. We colony, and he had derived much assistance from the pre- have since increased that expenditure two millions. Why ? parations left by his predecessor, from the despatches of To meet the very difficulties and contingencies which you Governor Grey, and from suggestions by the gentlemen to now say you aro making provision fur. In 1836, It was whom he had adverted. lie gave a brief outline of the I said we were going to have war with Russia, and you added history' of the colony, and the circumstances which led to 3,000 men to your navy. There was no war with limns, the suspension (which would cease in March, 1853) of the but the additional force was kept up. In 1841 and 1842 constitution of 1816. Ile dwelt upon the progress and you had difficulties in China and Syria, and • threatened growing importance of the colony, observing that rupture with France; and in 1812 occurred the difficulty there was every reason why the colonists should now with America about the Maine boundary. We added to he intrusted with the privilege of telf-gevern- our navy then on account of the war in China and meat. Difficulties, however, presented themselves whi:h Syria, and the chance of • rupture with the United distinguished this colony em almost every other de- States. Those difficulties passed away, but the navy pendency of the crown, in its geographical peculiarities, was never reduced. In 184.5, there was a very the mode in which it had been settled in detached commu- grave and serious alarm of • rupture with the United nities, the very high intellectual grade of the natives, and States about the Oregon territory. There was a strong pro- their extraordinary advance in civilization. Upon this last Debility of war, and an increase of 1,000,00 W. or 1,200,0001. point Sir John read from the despatches of Sir G. Grey was agreed to io the navy estimates. We then formed some remarkable extracts, and he then explained the scheme what was called a squadron of evolution ; it manoeuvred of the comtitution proposed by the present government, near our own shores ; the Queen paid a visit to it; and it pointing oat, se he proceeded, wherein it differed from that was said at the time that there was as large a force in that designed by Earl Grey. It wee their opinion that New squadron as had gained the battles of the Nile or Tra- Zealend should be considered as one colony, and that it (agar. (Hoar, hear.) The Oregon dispute was settled ; should be divided into seven provinces, each governed by a but the squadron was not at all reduced. Then came the superintendent, appointed by the governor-in -chief, with depute with France about the Spanish marriages. The a salary of 500/. • year, each superintendent to dynasty of France had passed away like a dream; and, in have • legislative council of not fewer than nine steed of coming here as invaders, had been glad to receive members, to be entirely elective, the franchise our hospitality. (Cheers.) Still three preparations had of the electors (natives not being excluded) to be continued, sad that on a scale large enough to meet heel as follows :—a freehold worth 501., or a house, if in a town, lilies teem • power far more formidable than France ; for worth 101. a year, if in the country, W. • year, or leasehold there is no doubt the United States is far more powerful ; property, with an unexpired term of three years, worth 101. and you have all the force you prepared to meet that a year. The question whether members of these provincial power, and also the force you prepared to meet France. councils shone; be left to the central legislature. Sir John This year we have voted 39,000 seamen end boys, and 6,000 read a list of the subjects, amounting to 14, upon which the for • reserved force—in all 44,000. You have, therefore, provincial councils would be restrained from legislating. all that you ever had during the time I am speaking of. The duration of these councils it was proposed to limit to There is no authentic source from which I can ascertain four years. The antral legislature would consist of the the exact state of our naval forces. No annual report is governor-in-chief, as head, and two chambers. In nude of the number of vessels—where they are stationed— the scheme of Lord Grey the upper chamber was to how many are in course of construction or in ordinary. be a representative body ; but there was no precedent We have to hunt through the military or naval periodicals in any colony foe an elective upper chamber, to find this out, and then we do not find the number ef and the present government reetnemseded that the men. The only source from which I can obtain the latest members of the upper chamber of the mere* legislature correct account of our naval forces is from the speech of the should be appointed by the crown &eft/ plesene. The late First Lard of the Admiralty in moving the navy esti lower chamber was to be elective, ihe Inianne for the mates for 18.50, and he says that we then had 232 constituency the 111~111 that for the reeladal councils. ships in commission, 263 advanced and in ordinary, The number of members for the Magee lhallther of the and 8 ready to be launched. This il, in round central legislature was to be ma Ism der IS, nor more numbers, ships built and building, 500. I have than 16, at the discretion of the gemesseleeshief ; that of no doubt our present naval force amounts to very the lower chamber not less deb at, nor more than 40. much the same. How is that naval force disposed of ? Here Five years was intended to be the aeration of the antra again I am just in the same difficulty. I know not where parliament, the acts of which wed' event& them ef the to apply to know where the vessels are stationed, and what provincial legislatures. It was _ear be is the amount of force on each station. But the right hon. a civil het ; that 12,0001. a year impoil be eeftissi. tent of gentleman the Home Secretary, in introducing this Militia which the salaries of the superiatendeele abed& be paid, Bill, on the 29th of March, told us the number of vessels at mil that 7,000 i. • year should be mewed be =dee per home ready to sail. He said : " Your ships in commission All aniereeelles nap/Min the ism km& te be on the home station at this moment are, 9 vessels of war, 5 r i tte km le el the peeed lerdisair. b ail re bees- frigates, 1 sloop, 9 steamers propelled by screw, and 8 pr - r damned, that eult • meirem se this amid be polled by paddle." And he grounded his Militia Bill on aid ineuM be inteelleled into the bill wheal" the statement that that was all the forte we had to protect the should have idt ppoower from time 111 ell shores. But when the right hon. gentleman the Se lime. le mast sheers in the emenatMa with the OINISSOt erstary for the Navy spoke he said he had to add to these eft*, IMP& It wee for the been M devils leaden 116 the following list: 1W ass within the category d•ameureppermies -," he " There were at Woolwich nine vessels with 530 men; believed it did ; but if the Muse mee of • dllkeset opinion. Sheerness, seven, with 1,314 men ; Portsmouth, sixteen, the alternative was, it bele. Wiley istitsesst to allow with 6,642 men; Devonport, eleven, with 2,822 men; tee set of 1846 to revive, te Smarmed that eneelitution for Cork, five, with 388 m ' en • i n all, 48 vessels and 11,906 men. Mother year. To them add the Hecate (cruising), 160 men; Pluto, 66; Sir R. H. INGLIS emplane& that ne revision warn Antelope, 55; Vulcan, 162; making in all 62 vessels and made for the religious maids of .111 OSIDINOOIk sad feleas- 12,320 men, exclusive of 4,4100 marines an ahem and emit masded that a provident& had en seeenne sheall he set guard and dockyard bear lir ; is all WS mem In apart (or that purpose, ine aim suggested that the spree addition he had to menden that the Mason sad Valens, absorber should be neligeleill for life. large serew-steamer, were seek awl& of moving a Tagi -1 Mr. GLADSTONE that government had dose meat, and there were several nee& sammers betides." so more than its duty in homed Ude IW, end he This is • very different istMement MIS the former. What hoped that no party feeling remall Ibe lmmwr I wish to have is an OEM StatellieSt. wash as I have aimed boon of constitutional rights foam belent Me aseerded to for, of the number el ships edemeed, in mmedesies, and New Zealand. He might anemia Mimes of opinion in ordinary. Then ISIMOS the important question, how are on some points, but he would lend his lame aid to go- oar skive disposed ale fereiga elltions ? I served twelve enema& I. senying this bill, es whit he nut eapeen swaths es the aural eemmines of 1848, and I came to the him demi that It we • beta wed meth the wen. eensiedes that them h a pest waste of the pebble wary nine gmaelfel eseeperes. Oa Or emedeaties of the um ishaagisg Lir ships es Onset stations under the plea of tral legislature he shaeld Wes sumervative grounds) ad- our commerce, fur which purpose they are Tecate an important dUeallite; bat the bill, as • whole, availebes. (Hear, hear.) The iscretery for the Admit did honour to the MOM, MO Is kb eallee ratty &e pee se, in that nine speech, the amount of our Hr. VERNON SMITH meat, Sall takes by navel hew ea the dillieent terdi t stations, which *mist sarpries, and thseght the irdmieselea ef gush a bill an of seven—tie Zen ladies sad the Pacific or west ineennietestag on the per ef reenneest ; and he cent et Aiseries, the sesehnen of Amnia, the west Sidi list woe with Mr. Oladeeme that it was only • seen if Aker, the Oar ef (teed Hope, North America reed= where/ the colonists wield consider the measure sad the West Indies, sad the Wearer:swan. He says • bees, bet same ask whether it would be a settlement of that all assures. " The whole of her Majesty's ships in commission were Ma 'LUKE eitlested that this bill did not propose to —in the East Indies and China, 19; Cape of Good Hope, liedelle the expense of the colony to the mother.country, 9; coast of Africa, 22; on the south-east coast of America et te Mks the former out of leading strings. The measure the number of ships was 8; west coast of America, 9 ; North am set me of exigency, and need not now occupy the America and West Indies, 13; Mediterranean, 19." bums. On referring to the report of the naval committee, I find Sir W. MOLESWORTH considered that any . form of that in 1837 there were only 10 ships on that station, and repreventative institutions was better than the smiting aye- that we had been keeping three or four vessels for some tem, but described this es one of the most liberal counts- years on the coast of New Zealand, in consequence of the tons he had ever heard proposed for a colony. He did sot troubles there. Now that we promisees give a constitution approve of the nominee system, or of the superintendents to New Zealand, and to hand over all the waste lands to other than elective. But he thought the house ought the local legislature, we may partly dispense with two or le moist the government in carrying the bill. three of those ; one ship will be sufficient to be left there. Mr. F SCOTT briefly expressed his satisfaction with the (Hear.) I dare say the war in Burnish will be urged government measure. against our bringing home more ships from Chins and the Mr. I'. HOWARD thought that the elective principle East Indies. But while we have 19 ships stationed in Might to he adopted in regard to the upper chamber. those seas, the East India Company have also a large fleet bir E. N. Be ETON rejoiced that equal rights were to for the protection of commerce, and they profess entirely to be given to the natives, and hoped that at no time would protect their own shores ; therefore whatever force we have the Europeans be allowed to alter the franchise for the there must be entirely for the protection of our trade to termer. China, and not to the East Indies. Looking at the amount Mr. ADDERLEY warmly thanked the government for of our exports to China and the Eastern Archipelago, the the bill, and contended, in answer to Mr. Heise, that the expellee of that immense fleet is altogether disproportioned question was one of urgency. Give the colonists their rights, to it and to the want, of the case. To place large ships of e said, and they would soon deal with their expenditure. war to serve as a police, where the only enemies of earn- He objected to the nominee chamber, and to tho subordi- melee are pirates who keep the shallow waters, is like em nate position in which the provincial legislatures were to be ploying a field battery to look after pickpockets is the placed. courts and alleys of the metropolis. (Cheer' and laughter.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought government entitled to The Pacific, or west coast of America station, was commendation for bringing in the bill, to which he formerly united with the east coast of South America; there would be no great opposition. He wee die- but in 11133 it was formed into a separate station. The reed te support the nominee chamber, and to look at the right hon. gentleman tens us we have 17 shies there— constitution SA can image of hat of there king- 9 on the Pucific and 8 on the Atlantic station. =.... d ile chief thing, however, was to establish A large increase took place on this station in representative institution., which, if found objectionable consequence of the threatened rupture with America , in any of their details, might be subsequently emended. on the boundary question, and the dispute going on in He promised to give every facility fur the carrying of this Buenos Ayres. During six years we have had an average i measure, of 2,000 men and 10 ships of war lying in the river Plate, Mr. AOLIONBY we grateful for the bill, but hoped interfering in that dispute ; and yet we effected no good that due care would be taken of the interests of the New whatever. (Hear, hear.) You may safely take away Zealand Company. six ships from that station, leaving 11, and thea Colonel THOMPSON begged to offer to Sir J. l'aking- yon will have a larger force to protect your comments ton a atilt Timmer congratulation than any that had y e t than the United States has, though their trade is much been addressed to him. greater since the discovery of the gold of California. On Sir JOHN PAK INOTON aeknowledged the kindness the west coast of Africa the right hon. gentleman tells us of the house, and explained what he had omitted there are 22 ships. The number there is needy ambled to state in ' his introduction, namely, that it was since 1836. I say, bring home every one dame ildps, Isis intention to reduce the neat item moved, in respect of which you are not compelled to keep there by lesety , New Zealand, in the colonial estimates, to 10,000/., that the with other powers—France or America. As the Roar war following year it would be 5,0001., and, after that, he trusted may be urged as a reason for not removing any of our Moab that the item would disappear from the estimates, and New from the Cape, I will not say one word is Laver of se- Zealand be self-supporting. Ile offered some explanations moving a single vessel from that station pleidies the Eels of the details of the measure, after which war. (Hear.) I come next to the West lallmieat Medi Leave was than given to introduce the bill. American station, where we have thirteen dim Mil it . - propestiteenttr trade with those places there is no portion I &Kenai defences an (Una Mears) The hon. of em mis Al iiz i bilh required so little protection as that with Meth •. lieu, hear.) It would be en insult,' eimmeittee an the Militia Bill, "That ! gegellimaa rewarded as an amendment on the to to hates to say that we required vessels to pro- to ga Zg i llr ig henee r better to masider the provisions *mime immerse then. (Hear.) They do not send ship, of the Militia 1101, a return of the effective force .to this mentry to protest their commerce here. (Hear.) And lof to loyal navy on the 31st day of March last if yen attest to your own affairs, and do not meddle In be laid on the table of the house ; such re tinas of Mims, you have very little occasion for ships in turn to contain the following particulars, viz.: North America. (Hear, hear.) As to the West Indies, First. The name., armaments, number of crews and officers you are trading with your own colonies and, of course, of all her Majesty's ships then employed in active terrier , you don't require any great force of ships on that come the stations on which they were employed, and the length (Hear, hear.) And here, again I must observe, that no- of time each vessel has been employed on each station re thing is so useless as • line-of-battle ship on the West Indian spectively, distinguishing steam vessels from sailing vessels, coast. lam told that at Kingston the officers give balls and and also strain vessels propelled by screws from those pro entertainments on board these ships, but as to the use of a pelted by paddle wheels, end stating the nominal horse- line-of-battle ship to protect our commerce in the West power of the engines of each vessel. Secondly, The same Indies, it has none whatever. (Hear, hear.) I would with- of all reserve or advance ships, with the ports at which draw four out of those 13 vessels from the North American they are now placed, and a statement of the periods which and West Indian station, and I would have them of the would be required to scud them to sea in a tit state for larger size. (Hear, hear.) I now come to the last and active service. And that the consideration of the bill in 'month station—that of the Mediterranean. We have 13 committee be postponed until after the production of such vessels on this station. Now it is stated in the evidence return." of Sir 0. Cockburn, that in his opinion six frigates and one Mr. ANDERSON, in reline to second the amendment, lice of battle ship was as large • force as would be required begged to assure the house he did so from no factious (cel iac this station in time of peace. (Hear, hear.) But at iota or party motives. While the hon. gentlemen opposite Iltr =Meat we have six or seven line of battle ships with sat on the treasury benches ho was quite willing to support 12 or 13 smaller vessels, being the largest collection of vem them in any good measures Mich they might propose, eels on any station sailing under the orders of Admiral while he was equally prepared to oppose all their obnoxious Dundee from Malta to Cephalonia and Smyrna. (Hear, propositions. For this reason lie had opposed the second hear.) Now I want to know if you are really serious when reading of this bill, as he should have dour that of the late you say that there is danger of an invasion, because if you government, as well as the aim ndment of the noble lord the are, your conduct is that either of children or of madmen, member for Tiverton. The house, moreover, had resolved to to leave your own shores unprotected whilst you have the consider the bill, and therefore it was of the utmost largest concentration of vessels you possess 1,200 miles importance that they should have tho largest puesiblo distant. (Hear, hear.) My preposition es that you amount of information before them, to enable them to de should being home tee of these nineteen vessels, cede un the requirements of the measure. Feedlot reason, and leave nine,' which is three more than Sir he believed, that the returns moved fur by his hon. friend G. Cockburn said would be necessary. I say if you appro. the member for the West Riding were highly necessary for bend an invasion bring home your fleet from the Mediter. the proper consideration of the bill in committee. lie ranean, and France would have no right to feel could not help confessing his surprise at the whole tone of jealous so long as she kept up a standing army of 350,000 the debate. (Hear.) It really seemed to him that they men whilst we had only a small army, and which 1 hope would ignore England's tieing • maritime nation the good sense of the people of this country will not permit at all. (Hear, hear.) It appeared to him as if to be increased. (Hear, hear.) We have this fleet 1,200 it was a parliament in Poland, meditating in miles off, and then the hon. gentleman tells us, as he what way an incursion front Russia was to be resisted, did the other night, that Hull and Dundee, and some other quite forgetting that we had a moat around us called the places, were lett wholly unprotected. (Hear, hear.) Surely British Channel. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord the mem. this was either a ioke or an insult to our understandings. ber for Tiverton had talked of 60,000 men coming to Cher (Hear, hear.) Why, fivo of the places which were said to Bourg and walking from their barracks on board ship, and bo undefended sent petitions against the Militia Bill. landing in England without anything being known about (Hear, hear.) 1 have been arguing on the assumption of it; but the noble lord wholly omitted one important con the advocates of • militia that we want more defences. But aideration, that there was no railway to Cherbourg, nor I confess Ido not ace any present danger in any direction was it likely there would be. But still, admitting these (hear, hear)--and I have not heard one fact urged 60,000 men were at Cherbourg, there was yet a want thst should excite any apprehension. lieu, hear.) We remaining must necessary to facilitate their operations, have bad every assurance that could be given that no and that was ships to walk into. (near, hear.) lie would further measures were n . But it has been said we try to throw some light upon this matter. First, then, with are liable to • war at any time. 7 don't believe that, and the regard to those terrible steam-bridges on which these men reason that people have petitioned against a militia is, were to cross the channel ; he would beg to read to the that they do not believe it likely or practicable that we house a statement of the comparative strength of the may have a war at any moment. (Hear, bear.) If people English and French steam navy, that respecting the English would read history, and more especially the details of fleet being taken from the navy estimates of 1818; that of what took place previous to the ruptures between this France from their official navy list. In 1818, it appeared country and our nearest neighbour during the last hundred that Great Britain had belonging to the royal navy, years, they would see that war was not likely to be rushed 171 steam-vessels of all classes, being of an aggregate of upon on • sudden. (Hear, hear.) But then it is 44,480 hone-power ; or, deducting packets, tenders, and said that the present ruler of Franco is not to be yachts, there were 103 steam-needs available fur purposes trusted—that ho is a man who would disregard all inter- of war ; namely, 4 line of-battle ships, 23 frigates, 48 national considerations of policy and justice. Now, what- sloops, and 28 gun-vessels, of an aggregate of 32,327 horses ever may be said of the preeent ruler of France, if merit is power. By the Etat (kn.:rale de his Marine, which fa to be taken as a test of seem es—and lam afraid wo are all the official French navy list, of the year 1819, the too much disposed to regard it in that light—Loris Napo- steam navy of France consisted of 78 vessels of lean had sheen no want of talent. AS hatever may be all classes of en aggregate of 17,740 hones power. thought of his moral sentiments, he has 'hewn that ho was But, deduc ting 20 small vessels called arises, in like man no blockhead. (s. Hear, hear," and laughter.) lie had ncr as is done from the British steam navy, it will leave for reached the highest post in the state, the people purposes of war a French steam navy of only 48 vessels, seemed to acquiesce in his rule, and he obtained namely, 1 7 frigates, 1.5 corvettes or sloops, and '2O &vises of a larger civil list than the Queen of England. (Hear, the first class—answering to what we clans as gun vessels— hear.) It was all eowlessr de ruse with him, and yet being in all 15,710 horse-power. So that at these periods, wo are told that this man is going to depart from say about three years since, the British war steam navy all recognised principles of international action, and was nearly double the number of vessels, and something that he is going to invade our shires. (Hear.) I have • more than double the steam power, of that of France. friend in Inners whose name, if I quoted it, would be re- Ile would now make a comparison of the commercial caived with respect not only in this house, but everywhere steam navies of the two countries. In the year in Europe. I wrote to him on this subject, to ascertain if 1819 an estimate, furnished from the Board of Trade, he could give any information to confront the most silly gave the whole commercial strain shipping of France panic that ever was known in this country. Here is his at , 3,000 horse-power, and about 10,000 tone, and answer, comprised in two lines:—" Louis Napoleon, if he he believed no great addition had been since made to it. made war, must do it through one of his generals. If that The vessels of lour companies, now employed in the Ocean general was successful he would eclipse him ; if he was not Mail Contract service, and which were under their he would ruin him." (Hear, hear.) But understand that contracts available for warlike operations, were 70 vessels, lam not here asking you to trust the good faith or forbear- amounting, in the aggregate, to 93,421 tons and 32,5410 anew of anybody—(bear)—but I say that Louis Napoleon horses power, being more than double the power of the is not so foolish as to contemplate anything so suicidal as a whole French steam navy in 1849, and more efficient buccaneering attack on our shores would be. (Hear, both fur speed and capability of armament. After this hear.) When we hear that he is despatching astute diplo- statement, he trusted the house would not be at all alarmed mallets to the north and to the south, and that he is every- at the idea of a bridge of French steamers being built where carry ing on negotiations to attach persona to his in- across the Channel. This country possessed such an over tercet and cause, was it to be supposed that at this very whelming steam power that not a single French soldier time he was going to run his head into a war with Eng- would be able to leave port. There were steamers enough land, and that he was going to invade us with s ime 13,000 to blockade all the French ports, and to prevent any vessels or 20,000 men. (Hear, hear.) I have heard it said by the from leaving them. Ile felt no hesitation in seconding the noble lord, the member for Tiverton, that is was possible amendment. for the present ruler of France to invade this country by The question having been put, sending 60000 or 60,000 men from Cherbourg in the night. Mr. STAFFORD said the hon. seconder of this motion When I hear such statements as that, it accounts salt. seemed to be animated by a s .mewhat different spirit from cicntly for all the old statesmen sitting on this side of the that of the hon. gentleman who moved it. While the hon. house out of office. (" Item, hear," and laughter.) And kdo member for the West Riding expressed himself as dissatis not wonder that Lord Derby should hope to fi nd new fled with the amount of knowledge respecting the navy " diggins " and new veins, and that he should discard the which was then in possession of the house, the boo. member old " placers." (Much laughter and cheering.) Surely it fur the Orkneys, having got a return, seemed to have got is little leas than an insult to the good sense of the country all ho wished for, nod s except in the last sentence of his to make such a prediction as that. (Hear, hear.) Will speech, made not the slightest allusion to the motion before any man say that 60,000 men could be brought to Cher- the house. (Laughter.) The house must, he thought, bourg and landed in this country without our having a have observed with astonishment the amount of nautical month's notice of it? (Hear, hear.) I wish we had lore in reference, not only to the commercial marine, but to a committee sitting on the national defences, and I ships of war, displayed b y the hon. member for the West should be glad to inquire of the Adjutant - General Riding. W here the hoar. member had studied the subject what equipment to send 60,000 men into a country, and it was not for him to say; but that a gentleman pro more especially into • country that had a hostile fleet tossing to be without official information should be which ruled the seas, sad was ready to intercept and cut able to say that six ships should bo taken from off all retreat. (Hear, hear.) I should like to ask what one station, nine from another, one from New cavalry would be required, for I presume that when this Zealand, and that • certain number of ships should bo left army lands here they do not mean to run about and catch in the Mediterranean, must certainly appear astonishing to horses. (" Hear, hear," and laughter.) I should like to those who were not aware how much time the hon. gentle know what amount of artillery and commissariat stores man had given to the study. Now, was this the only aspect would be requisite. (Hear, hear.) Such a statement as of the case ? After the bon. member and his party had the one to which I have referred is a mockery of the good voted 44,000 men without a single comment, be now brought sense of the people of England ; and the people of England, before the house a motion whose sole and specific object was by the public meetings which they held on this subject, delay. He was very much disappointed to find, as the hon. and the petitions which they presented to this house, gentleman proceeded, that he had no explanation to offer in showed that they did not believe in the possibility of such reference to this change of tactics. (Hear, hear.) Now he • sudden invasion. (Hear, hear.) As to steam in put it to the hon. gentleman, what effect these returns could cotton-spinning or manufactures, did steam give greater ad- possibly have. Were they to suppose that the towns which vantages to other countries than to England? (Hear.) If not the bon. gentleman had named would be influenced by why should steam give them greater advantages in its ap- these returns; or that the returns would tend to diminish plication to navigation. (Hear, hear.) But it is said steams the amount of support which this measure had re boats would enable an enemy to leave their ports at any ceived, not merely from places which enlighten time to invade England. But did not steam enable us meat had never reached—(. hear,"and laughter)—but from also to send out our steamboats to the ports of France ? places as important and as much deserving of respect as (Hear, hear.) Formerly the same wind that blew the those to which he had on that occasion, as formerly, tier- French vessels towards our ports, prevented us from meet- towed his view ? (Hear, bear.) Ile (Mr. Stafford) mint ing them vessels. (Hear, hear.) It was then impossible here protest against the system of explaining away the ma to sail a line-of-battle ship in the wind's eye ; but jorities of that house. Those whom they (the ministerial now, however the wind blows, wo can send our vessels to members) represented had as much right to have their opi- Boulogne or to Cherbourg; and, what is more, they can re- nious and the votes of their representatives respected as main before these ports like a rock, thus hermetically seal- the constituencies of the district to which the hon. gentle- Lig up these ports. (Hear, hear.) When Lord Nelson man was in the habit of referring. (Hear, hear.) The was blockading the port of Boulogne he was frequently hon. member said that 6,500,0001, was spent in our naval de driven away for three weeks together, but that could not fences. If the hon. gentleman included the packet service occur now with steam-vessels. (Hem, hear.) The autho- he ought also to include other items which had equally rides of the Peet-office can tell you how often their steam- little to do with defences. Did he mean to say that vessels have failed of reaching that port. Now, this gave all the scientific branches, which were as useful us a greater advantage than any other country, because we to the commercial marine as to the navy, and had a far greeter steam force, and I have no doubt it in- the freight of troops, were referable to naval defences? cleared our defensive power ten times. (Hear, hear.) A Such representations were a fair sample of the fairness and return has just been laid on the table of the house, from accuracy which characterised the hon. gentleman's state which it appears that we are possessed of 1,300 steam- meat. As regarded the precise number of vessels employed boats. This is • larger number of steam-Telesis than is on any particular station, the hon. gentleman might take by all the nations of Europe put together. (Hear, an arbitrary fi gure, but no Board of Admiralty could con- E ce et.r ed others , And we are now building othe, which would give eider itself tied down to the maitenance of a particular us double as many as all the nations of the continent of Eu- number of vessels is any one month. (Hear, hear.) It rope promised. (Hear, hear.) I could not say the same of would be guided by the communications which it received ; 'suing vessels, because there area largo number of sailing and that house would, he believed, never require confiden vemels building in the Baltic ports, but there are no tial communications on matters of the highest interest to be Seams soestruetiag steamers in these ports. (Hear, hear.) divulged. 'fake the case of the West coast of Africa. If Well. dm. II Mom is to be of such use to our enemies by one vessel or two vessels more were found to be necessary ma—sta adveedeip which we share equally with them—how for the end in view, would the hon. gentleman say that amok had ran aged to our sense of security in afford- they should be withheld ? The commanders-in-chief on Mg us increased for the transmission of troops different stations often stated that they required more ships. lien our part of the country to another ? (Hear, hear.) (" Hear," from Mr. Bright) ; and in spite of that cheer, he I lave here a few lines from the evidence of Sir W Clor. must say that, in his opinion, such persona, being on the dm, the Quartermaster General, given before the railway spot, were far better able to judge than the hon. gentleman. committee in 1844 in which, speaking on this very point, The bon, member for the West Riding quoted the reec ho stated that in the two years from December, 31, 1841, to dent of 1793. The delay of the war at that period arose Dkomber 31, 1843, there were 130,174 persons—offieers,men, from the want of preparation ; but let that precedent count Memo s and children—moved by railroad under his three- for what ft might before, the hon. gentleman himself de. to England. Speaking of railways generally, he said: strayed its weight when he said in a subsequent part of his el I chsoM ay that this mode of railway conveyance has speech that steam hail placed us in a new position, and kaki time any, comparatively to the demands made that our forefathers would not have thought of undertaking open It, a sty small one, to do the work of every large what steam would enable us to accomplish with ease. owe. Yon send a battalion of 1,000 men from London to (hear, hear.) That was the real state of the ease. When Manchester in nine hours ; that came battalion marching, the ton. gentleman spoke of the facilities with would take seventeen days ; and they arrive at the end of which our own troops might be moved , across Mee hoursjust as fresh, or nearly so, as when they started." this island, he appeared entirely to forget that Well, here we have the fact that we are enabled now, by similar lecithin existed in a neighbouring (country, UMW of railways, to accomplish within the space of nine that not only soldiers but crews of vessels might hems what it took us seventeen days toeffeet in the time of be rapidly conveyed from thenuth, to man the 26 vessels in tasspike rates. Further, we are told that we can transport the northern ports. The hon. gentleman himself could not as bore' body of troops as we could assemble in Scotland deny that it was owing to the increase of our fleets that from Edinburgh to Dover in twelve hours ; whereas this peace had been preserved, and that our preparations had was formerly not to be done under twenty-four days. compelled our enemies—if we had any—to respect us. Is not this an enormous advantage ? And dues it not give (Hear, hear.) The motion submitted to the house was one us an immense control over the army we possess? lam which had never been granted by any administration. It really ashamed to pursue this subject further, and I cannot had been repeatedly brought forward, but it had always believe that th ere is any man—at least 00 man of sense and been held that to grant such a return would be highly detri intelligence—who places any confidence in all this talk we mental to the service. The statement which he (Mr. Staf have had lately about our defenceless condition. (. Hear, ford) made in reply to the motion of the hon. member for hear," and " Oh, oh," from the opposition benches.) 1 the Orkneys, showed that the government did have proved to you that there is no reason for all this alarm ; not wish to conceal any information which they but I suppose in the minds of some persons, who still be- considered it right to give ; but this motion lievo in protection and such other superstitious, there may could not be granted unless the house resolved to constitute be found to exiet tome fears of • French invasion. (Laughter.) itself the Board of Admiralty. In matters of this nature I really have to beg pardon of the French nation, and of the it was necessary to report. confidence in the responsible ad common sense of this country, for even alluding to such risen of the crown. Some of the particulars included in dangers, though I even du so but hypothetically. I myself the motion had already been laid on the table; but the at have not the smallest idea that any such exist more now tempt to obtain a return of " the names, armaments, sum than there did two years: um, and you are a. strong now as her of crews and officers of all her Majesty's ships empl o yed you were then. All I will say is, that if you insist on on active service," &c., must be met by the government forcing forward this Militia Hill, at all events, first bring with a positive denial. Its immediate effect would be to iht to olf i rs h yw e rte a d lini toh u fe e n w riv i o t a h til om w nanag h w ic e h ne t tm h to e en h to o v n ; y vEre la ngn iti czn o o u n. t atb l i i .. as nt u g an ni edin n ri t home your fleets, and let the people of the country aster- give more information than the government ever yet ymo it tie n . ey p:o w ntd h u ic dit h h, e b .n all ipei be o e lio n l al t re hoe a f d in ,reverse fraught a" t d he a : e. tßui step ran - wbc t a e i c u n t t h hp a ar t otpe th e the executive eovernment of the country that is which he trusted the house was not pre pa red to take bent on resisting imaginary dangers,. Sir, Lecaase (Hear ' hear.) There might be defects in the Admiralty, I believe no danger to exist to this country, and and h o hoped they would be rectified ; but as it had because no proofs have been given that we require been managed, and he hoped would continue to be ma. further defence, I resist the peewees of this bill ; and towed, it had protected the commerce of the country an d I hope, at all events, that though the government preserved our shores inviolate ; and he asked the house not may not be willing to withdraw their bill, they to declare to the commanders-in-chief abroad that this coon will not refuse the returns I am looking for, which will try had no confidence in them, or to show that it was de enable the people of this country to jud ge how far them ad. tormined to take the executive into its own hands, by de- mending information which the responsible servants of her Majesty did not consider it consistent with their duty to grant. (Cheers,) Mr. CORRY concurred with the hon. member for the West Riding that, in discussing the question of our national defences, it was not possible to separate the military from the naval services : but ho also concurred with the hon. gentleman the Secretary for the Admiralty, ;that the infor mation asked for by the hon. member for the West Riding ought not to be given by the Admiralty. If that informa tion were given, it would throw but very little light on the subject, and the country would not he at all the wiser through it, unless it were accompanied by retarns of the naval force that might be opposed to it. Nor did he think that the consideration ought to be proffered for the produc tion of any information on the subject of our naval furces, because the official Navy List contained sufficient informa tion of the names, the armaments, and the station' of the ships in commission (Hear, hear.) He had biken the trouble to compare the French and the English Navy Lists, and he thought he should be able to put the house in pos session of sufficient information on the subject, with which he was necessarily familiar from his apprenticeship to the Admiralty. The house need not he informed that the nasal forces of this cuuutry were Meamparalay greater titan those of France—(hear, hear)—but although our navy was greater, there were circurnebutces which gave great +Mean tnges to the French navy. Those Mecum:a:mites wore the geographical position of France, the distribution of the fiesta of the two countries awl the system adopted in France, by which they obtained men for the whole of their reserved ships of star, while in England there were consider able difficulties in finding men to man the ships for service. (liear.) With respect to the first of therm advantages, that of geographical position, it was known that both countries retained their largest ' , quadrant in the Me diterrancan, but that sea was for the French navy a home, while for the English it was a foreign station. In the event of the French squadron in the 31editerranean being re quired for immediate service, a telegraphic despatch from Park to Toulon would not require as many hours :as it would take days to send orders from London to Malta. ((tear, hear.) If an order for that purpose were sent from Paris to-morrow, the French navy might be in Brest in a fortnight. The French ateant navy in the Mediterraueaa was larger than that of England, and in any emergency arising a large portion of it might be detached for service on the shores of this country. Another consideration was that the French might scud a naval force from Toulon, where they had seven ships of the line fully mantle d; but as it had been stated by a high naval authority In France, that that country ought not to risk it. large shape immediately on the outbreak of a war with this country, they would cm. ploy the crews of those line-of battle ships to man their reserve of small steam vessels, which in less than fourteen days might all be directed against our shores. (Hear, hear.) l'he main advantage which the smaller steam navy of France possessed over the larger steam navy of England was a erived from the difference of the distr,lndion of the French as compared with the English. Englund had most important mercantile and colonial interests to protect, and the consequence was, that while by far the greater part of the navy of France was on the shores of that countay, immediately et the command of its government for any service, by far the greater portion of the navy of England was on distant sta tions, out of the reach of the government, and unable to give us any assistance in the esent of an attack on our coasts. (Hear, hear.) After a very careful analysis of the navy lista of the two countries, he found that, on the let of January last, the relative distribution of the two navies was as follows: England bud 138 ships in commission, manned by 33,000 seamen and marines ; France had 137 ships, with 26,000 men. But England had on foreign stations Iles ships with 20,000 men; while France lied only 67 ships, with 7,004 men. Eagland had on the home station, including Lisbon, only 60 ships, with 12,000 men : while France had 70 ships, with 18,000 men. Another difference was, that while Eng land sent most of her large steamships to foreign stations, France retained hers on the home station. The largest steam-vessels of France on a foreign station were corvettes of 220 horse-power. Of this class France had six vessels on foreign stations ; and the whole of her steam navy of a larger class was concentrated on her own shores; while Eng land sent her largest and most powerful steam-shijae to foreign stations. France hap 32 steam-vessels in commis sion, two steamers of the line, 11 steam frigates, and 18 steam corvettes. England had 48 vesecla of similar qua lifications, varying from 800 to 300 horse-power. Of these 22 were abroad, and only 14 at home. While the largest French steam-vessel on foreign service was one of 220 horse-power England had abroad four between 800 and 610 horse-power, four between 600 and 600 horse-power, seven between 401 S and 500 horse-power, and five between 300 and 400 horse power, and eleven between 200 and 300 horse-power. Eng land had in commission 61 steam- , hips, of 18,900 horse power, while France had 77 of 17,300 horse-power. In readiness to be commissioned, England had 31 steam-vessels of 10,300 horse-power, and France had 30 of 8,200 horse power ; making a total of 93 steam-vessels for England, of 25,000 horse-power, and for France, of 107, with 2.5,000 horse-power. (Hear ' hear) But of the steam-vessels in i commission England heed 47 vessels of 13,330 horse-power abroad, and only 21 vessels of 3,001) horse power at home, while France had only 17 vessels of 6,600 horse-power abroad,' and 56 vessels of 14,400 horse-power at ,home. (licar.) But in case of war, hen, gentlemen looked to the mercantile' marine for defence. No doubt the steam packets were well' adapted for the purposes for which they were built, and might be made to carry heavy armaments. But if the packets were employed for the purposes of war, how were the East and West Indies or the Mediterranean to be com municated with? (Hear, hear.) Some of these vessels might be made very valuable auxiliaries, but they ought not to be relied on as a safe arm of defence. (Hear, hear.) If England had a great reserve steam navy, France had the same. France had a merle steam navy which would require 24,000 men to complete their complements ; but while this country would be labouring under great difficulties to find half that number of seamen on an emergency, Franco possessed no less that, 43,000 available sailors, more than hell of whom had already served their period of 4 years afloat. Under these circumstances he certainly did think that this country ought not to trust exclusively to its navy for purposes of defence—(hear, hear)—and he was anxious, therefore, to support the bill introduced by her Majesty's ministers. He should be quite content with the state of our national defences if hon. gentlemen would prove that England possessed the large military force which bad been said the other night to be available; but he was afraid that instead of having more than 100,000 men this country has not more than 20,000 men to defend its shores. ( blear, hear.) Even if the large f.ree be had mentioned really did exist, neither the police nor the dockyard battalion, which were enumerated as a part of it, could be in two places at once. (A laugh.) Both were efficient for local purposes, and the dockyard men, when not required for the defence of the yams, were essentially necessary in the yards for other purposes. The same was the case with the coast guard. Their services would be required to man the re serve steam navy—(hear, hear) —and, instead of the ma rines being able to afford a reserve to the army in case of war, they would require an addition of 3,000 men from the army to complete the complement of marines for the navy. For these reasons, he :thought the country re quired the organisation of a militia. lle concurred with the member fur the West Riding, as to the propriety of reducing the number of ships on foreign stations, and increasing the forte on the home station. (Hear, hear.) A steam vessel of 200 horse power, would render just as efficient protection to English commerce as one of greater horse power. On the coast of Africa, at Lagoa, in China, and in the Parana, the most e ffi cient services had been rendered by steam vessels of a small class. He certainly thought this subject wor thy of the consideration of goverument. (Hear, hear.) There was no subject which could exceed in importance that of our national defences, and ho trusted that the ministry would not be prevented by the house from taking such measures as they might deem necessary for the secu rity of the country. (Cheers.) Mr. CARTER and several other bon. members rose together, but, in obedience to a general cry of new "mem ber," the rest gave way. The hon. gentleman said, that having only just been returned to the house he should not have presumed to address them did not the peculiar circumstance of the expected dissolution induce him to trouble the house with a few words. (A laugh.) He bad listened with great attention to the ob servations of the hon. member fur Tyrone, and of the hon. Secretary to the Admiralty, and certainly thought that both hon. gentlemen had not answered the observe ' Lions of his hon. friend (Mr. Cobden). Ilia hon. friend de sired by that motion to obtain the withdrawal of a portion of the naval forces of the country from foreign stations; that was an answer to both threw hon. gentlemen. The hon. Secretary of the Admiral, had, in fact, replied to his hon. friend more by sarcasm than by argument. There surely could be no objection to the available strength ,of the navy being made known, but instead of making any reasonable reply, the honourable Secre tary of the Admiralty only sneered at the cepa• city of his hon. friend to obtain naval knowledge. That was an argument always used against those who were not professionally acquainted with any subject before the house. Thu same argument might have been used by lawyers against any lay members of the house who assisted in law reform and. other subjects. Bat members exercised their judgment on those questions, and he did not see why the hon. member for the `Vest Riding should not exercise his strong common sense on the present question because ho was a member of the Peace Society. Ile (Mr. Cartel) re joiced that the first opportunity he had of raising bis voice in that house was on the aide of peace, and against thoso expensive armaments which had been so long kept up in this country. (Hear, hear.) Captain )JOLDEIIO said that every one expected that the honourable member for the West Riding and his friends would oppose the Militia Bill, for they opposed all estimates, but particularly those connected with military defences ; but he would do them the justice to say that ho believed they would equally have opposed the bill of the late government. The right hon. gentlemen the member for Manchester made a speech an hour and a halt long the other night against the bill, and lie must have been rather surprised at a division in its favour of two to one. The mo tion to-night said one thing and meant another. All the information that was asked was to be found in the Nary List, and the real object was delay. (Hear, hear.) If the Secretary for the Admiralty had given the returns asked for woul d the latter:part of the motion have been withdrawn? There was only one object, and that was to impede the pro- V:of business in that house ; and it came with a trace from the gentlemen of the Manchester party, who, a month ago, were so clamorous for a dissolution. The right , hon. gentleman, the member for Manchester, had mad.' a I statement quite unfounded when he said tbo French were • reducing their army. Where did he get his information? There wan no reduetlon proposed in their budgot-11 mil , lions of francs in addition had been voted for the navy. • Mr. M. GIBSON—I said the national guard. • Captain BOLDERO—Tbcy had been disbanded, and • were being re-organised again. From the French papers zei" io, ahgeria, boa ooTp D ot be ac not the I h of Ft • d , the F, - - prestal since t: anxiou denied ban u n tha tor exi 13u hog SO% tic nic 101 ho us et a %PIN ~~