The Express. — London, England, 1853-05-03 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS.—MONDAY, HAY 2. IleAto Ca utcrittoa took hi. lest at . o'sleck. PETITIONS PRESENTED. Iteat:47aatt.iie Aseveascia BILL.—IIy Lord FEVER SHAM, from York, egaiast this bill. 1111:111.116 (SCOTLAND) BILL.—By Lord CAMPBELL, from places is BesUand, against this BANICAVTT Laws.—By Lord BROUGHAM, horn mer chas•s aid others is the City of London, on the subject of the baukrupt taws. IN si• —By the Duke of NORTHUMBERLAND, from the Nswesetle and Gateshead Commercial Amaciatioa, as' the a/hire of !sills. eItINT AL PALA*. s.—By Earl GREY, from • place sot heard, in favour of the opening of the Crystal Palace as Budge. COMMON LAW. The Louu CitAXLELLOIt lead on the table the second re port of the Common Law Consraissioncn. CONVICTS. Earl GREY gave notice that on Friday he would move Y address to her Majesty, prating that she would give directions that the arrangements with respect to criminals eistnict to transportation in 18. may not be changed until farther infuraisuon be laid before parliament. INDIA. Lord WiLtIiNCLIFFE, pursuant to notice, presented' petition nom the corporation cf cutlers at Sheffield on the subject of the internal improvement and public works in India. The petitioners were one of the most ancient cor porations in this country, and of all countries in the world to which the cutlery of England was repotted India was the largest consumer. It was, therefore, natural that the cut lers of She Meld should take • deep interest in any measure affecting India ; end he believed that the prayer of the pe tition %inch he had to present was in accordance with pub lic opinion in this country. The petitioners first pointed out that it was the imperative duty of the government of India to promote the cultivation of the soil; and they sug gested that there should be a more permanent fixing of the land tax. There bad been • controversy as to the extent to which this tax premed upon the people and obstructed their progress. The next point to which the petitioners directed animation was the financial procudidos of the government. One of the great difficulties of the Indian government was, that they had to provide some millions of money ; and, mug other methods, they adopted the course of advancing money by hypotbeattion upon the goods of India. When his noble friend (the Earl of Elleuborough) was at the head of the government of India he took steps to put an end to that practice, end sent a despatch strongly recom mending that it should be discontinued. An order was issued in 1850 which entirely abolished the practice and it was to be hoped that it would nut be revived under any circumstances. It was originally adopted when the company was still • trading corporation. Since the last me paned, the trade of India had increased 240 per cent., and it was now to be hoped that the company could fled mean s through the ordinary channels, of remitting their mewl without resorting to so objectionable • practice as plods/ themselves in the position of traders. The next point in which the petitioners alluded was the most important : it was that of internal improvement. A ;mod deal had been veld on botti sides of the question. The government and the East India Company said that a great deal had been done and more was in the course of achievement ; whilst on the other Laud severe criticism said it was a scandal both to the Indian government and the country that so little had bees effected. (Hear, hear.) Neither of these statements, he believed, conveyed the correct view of the case. Within the ,last ten years there had, no doubt, been • greater desire to promote internal improvements, but still all had not been done that ought to have been done. Tau lower province of Bengal consisted of • great alluvial tract through which two enormous strums of the continent found their way, and it maintained about 40,000,000 of souls. There were 3,000 miles of embank ment on the riven, but it was in • most dilepiiLtal state. Some years ago a commission was issued for the purpose of examining into the embankments, and informing the government how far it was possible to repair and renew them. The commission was composed of • fourth-rate English engineer, a eaptaia in the Indian ser vice, and a medical gentleman, and their sole report was that they found the works iu an inefficient state, and they thought the but thing to be dens was to leave them " in • state of nature." (A laugh.) There were some canals, but they were so choked as to be almost useless. And then, as to the roads, there was the grand trunk road, made about twenty years ago, from Calcutta up the Valley of the Gang**, 1.450 miles into the interior of the country. The expenditure, which had been authorised by the gavels meat, upon this road, amounted to about 1,500,0001. It was the great military line of communication, but there were several wide and deep streams to pass, and there were scarcely any bridges. Two bridges, within 3.5 miles of Cal cutta, had been washed away some years ego, and not a single effort bad been made to replace them. In the evi dence before the committee of the House or Commons in IS4S, upon the roads in India, it was stated, by a gentleman of great experience and knowledge, that on one occasion during the Sutlej war, it was thought desirable to send 100 officers from Calcutta to the scene of opera tions, to which the great trunk road was a direct line. The oflions had to travel in paluquins, and it was neces sary to have relays of 7,200 bearers, who travelled at the rate of four miles an hour; but notwithstanding all the boasted advantages of the great trunk road, only 30 of the o ffi cers arrived at their destination in time. In the province of Delhi there were two great irrigating canals, called the East Jumna and the West JOOIIIII. Them canals had been taken in hand by the government, and lanai sums had been expended on them. The canals in connexion with the Ganges extended, in length, over nearly nine hundred miles. There was no doubt but that works of this kind were of the greatest value. In the papers laid before the house, in consequence of the motion, he (Lord Whamcliffe) made in 1851, there were nine different works of this description enumerated. This was satisfactory as it obeyed a cesviodes hod bees famed epos the gems went of India that them week' sbeshl be seselimodi and proceeded with. Taroks east to the presitlesey of Beet bey, and looking, he lbe lest place, to their means of com munication, it apposed that there were no really good roads. This was remarkably shown in the years 1837 and 1838, when a mat di astrous famine occurred. In order to amply the suffering districts, it was proposed to bring corn from other parts of India. Attempts were rude to do this, hut they were very far from being successful. Snob was the state of the roads, that an addition of 9d. and 10d. per mile to the price of eon would not cover the eget of transit. Nothing more striking than this could be slimed. The tasks in Bombay were not so numerous ea in other parts of India. As to the proposed railway, praise wee un doubtedly due to the govertimentof India for the 411110S rsrment which they had given to this undertaking. But railways were of no use without the essietenes of sellsory roads. It was, however, Ms (Lied Wheemillffet er t: that when the railway was eseeteueted, sad es givi ri to Milne, not merely the math Hsu, lamme betd. also the me coadary lime, of transit would be The last le be liaised woe noble, which differed widely C e l l =eter rem time rikeely adverted le. The grater pieties settee swim sae of a most arid description, in no port of bilk 1111111 ele means of Irrigation of such para mount hopeless,. Throughout the whole of this pull dewy 11011111110111 msYllda of maim tasks fee the of Weakg the hod tome stselered. Thee works were all easstruatid h fonner times, end peat ambers of them had beet allowed to fall into utter deem. Having used the word teak se often, he (Lord Wlierscliffe) thought it right to Maio le the beam that these balm were net mere cisterns or ems pasdu One of them woe twenty miles in eireunifermse, sad of an average breadth of six miles. There woos however, sot many so large as this, but their diniensiemporserally were by no means iecomiderable. Other wombs bed bees oomentesed for the purposes of irri gation, is stheeeles with the three rivers which watered the eouthees pert it this lervibiry ; but notwithstanding the sucrose which bad attended them, many places, to which they' were equally applicable, had been left un toothed. With respect to the reads of Madras some repre sentations had bees made that they were in a satisfactory state ; but the petition of the native inhabitants of Madras stated that some of the roads were in good repair, and that many of them were is an unfinished state. In fact, he (Lord Whanseliffe) had heard that it took fear hours to get over seven miles of ground. It had been argued, and not without force, that the government of India could not engage in great works, while they had to bear the ezpen ces Ine.dent to balmy wars; but he (Lord Whanscliffe) was convinced, from the attention he had given to the matter, that the Indian government had mistaken their in terest in not having long since steadily, peseverthely, and in spite of all obstacles, devoted the sum for works of public utility. The time had bees, lnWi,when the Company could with difficulty raise the necessary sums ; that was now no longer the cams. That these things mold be done, and that the people of India were not wanting in enterprise the following fact would show. An English engineer had succeeded in building a suspension bridge over one of the rivers, from resources en tirely unconnected with government. He had got the mosey and the necessary people together fur executing the work, and, by dint of persiveruce, had carried the matter to a successful issue. (The Duke of Noiromt here presented to their lord ships her Majesty's reply, assenting to the joint address of both houses, requesting her to appoint a royal commission to inquire into the existence of corrupt practices in the Borough of Hull and the City of Canterbury.] The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH expressed the extreme satisfaction with which those who took an interest in the affair* of India must view the extension of that interest generally throughout the country ; and he trusted that the assintani • they would receive from the adhesion of partite so influential as those from whom the noble lord had pre sented • petition, would lead to beneficial resale. He could easily unde rstand the pleasure with which the peti tioners regarded the abolition of the pernicious opelmn of advancing money in India on the bypotheastion of geode-- •sy.tt.m which had interfered greatly with MONISM and had crippled the energies of the honest trader. He bed hiran If anticipated so certainly the arguments and rimm ing of the goeernment on this gpoint, that he had actually issued a notice of the approaching abrogation of the prac tice; l.ut that step was not well received in this country, and indeed he believed there was no one measure of the government of ladia that gave more thorough dissatisfaction to the board of directors; their appre hensions, however, had proved to be entir.ly without foundation ; and trade was now free to that extent. His noble friend had adverted very atrocity to the state of the roads—a subject which bad been brought under his (Lord Ellenborough's) notice on the very first day that he spent in India. Ile had disembarked about ninety miles from Calcutta, sad as there was no steamer to take him forward, he intimated that he would go on at once by land. This proposal was laughed at by those to whom he mentioeed it. They said there were no roads ; and if there had been, there were no means of conveyance, so that ii he went he must walk all the way. (A laugh.) siz or eight weeks afterwards it was necessary fur him to proceed up the noun try, luta it to ,k nine days to prepare his dank, though he Wooly three palanquins, and though he travelled with less baggage tLan many a cadet. fie had found a great difference between the roads in different parts of India. In some places they were as good as in England, bat is ethers they were nearly impassable. By means. however, of the assistance of Mr. Grey, the active postmaster-general, they were greatly improved, and in a little time ft had become possible to send officers as rapidly as the mail Carts. Con uttering the cheapness of labour in India, it was quite astonishing that the government should bare showed such apathy with regard to public works. There had of late been a great improvement in Rajpootana, where the public buildings and works did some credit to our administration, or rather our influence; but speakin3 generally it was necessary that we should reform ourselves, and ao some thing fur the country. (Hear, hear.) It was true that there would be some difficulty in finding the necessary funds. When he looked at the war in which the Indian government had unfortunately engaged, and of which no man could prisume to foretell the probable termination— and at the melancholy state of things in China, which might impair one greet source of the revenue, he must confess he did feel some degree of apprehension as to the means of the government to make any material change. Still, he did venture to hope that the expression on the part of the natives of their desire fur improvement, would act upon parliament and her Majesty's government and lead to some beneficial result. (Hear, hear.) They had done a good deal for themselves, and let them therefore consider whe ther, without incurring any material risk, or any risk at all, by lending the credit of the state to the government of India, for tLe purpose of reducing the interest of those great incumbrances of which the in was paid in England, they could not at once procure a new fund, of no inconsi derable amount, which he most earnestly desired to see ab solutely devoted by parliament to the sole purpose of the internal improvement of India. (Cheers.) He did not propose the substitution of tkis fund for that raised for such purposes in India, but that they should be applied in addi tion to that fund, and that an account of the expenditure on the works completed, with an estimate of those ordered, should be regularly laid before parliament. (Hear, hear.) He hoped by the same means, also, to put an end to the present system of patronage ; and that the persons who should hereafter be appointed to situations in India might possess some fitness for the posts for which they were designed. (Hear, hear.) Above all he felt quits cer tain that such a state of things would not be permitted to remain, as that any man that purchased 1,0001 East India stock should be enabled to barter his vote for the patronage he received. (Hear, hear.) Assuming that the value of the East Indian Stock to be somewhat enhanced by consi derations of this kind, he proposed that it should be con verted into a Three per Cent. Stuck, at the rate of 2661. 13s. 4d. per 1001., which as the present price was 2621., would be • premium of 41. 16s. Now, supposing that there should exist a willingaeu on the part of the proprietors to accept that conversion, the interest upon the 6,000,000/. ; stock would be 480,0001., instead of 630,0001., which was at present paid. There would thus be • present gain of 150,0001. upon the transaction. But there was another debt, the Indian Bood debt, which amounted to nearly 3,900,0001., and which bore an interest of one pound more than that on Exchequer Bills. At present it was con siderably more, but he took the average. Now, he pro. posed that they should advertise for the immediate pay ment, and should raise the money by Exchequer Bills. By this means they would save 40,0001., which added to the previous sum, would be 190,0001. • year. But that was not all. They would have the whole of the fund which had been created for the purpose of ultimately paying off the debt. Last year that fund amounted to 3,977,0001. and by this time must be 4,118,0001. ; so that they would perceive that the total sum which might be raised, simply by using the credit of this country, was no less that 300,0001. a year. (Hear, hear.) Now, he thought that the fairest way of dis posing of this fund would be to place it at the disposal of the several presidencies is proportion to their gross revenue. Thus Agra would be entitled to 6 parts, Bengal to 10, Madras to 5, and Bombay to 4 ; or Agra would receive 92,0001. ; Bengal, 120,0001. ; Madras, 60,0001. ; and Bombay, 48,0001. In 20 years no less than 6,000,0001. would have been expended on public works, and if judiciously laid out would do much to entitle us to the gratitude of India. (Hear, hear.) We really ought to do something for our civil reputation. Hitherto we had done everything for ourselves only, while the dynasties which had preceded our own had not only consulted their own wants, but the wants of posterity. As all men desired to leave something behind them to preserve their name from oblivion tio desired that his country might be associated in the future of India with something con , netted with the permanent good of the people of that na tion. At the present moment he feared that the impartial judgment of all historians would be that while we were the possessors of one of the most magnificent empires in the world and the successors of Akhbier and Astrungsebe—al though we might have been amongst the noblest of soldiers, they would eoudema our memory as having been amongst the very meanest of administrators. (Cheers.) Earl GRANVILLE had heard with great pleasure the discussion of that night, and he trusted that the remarks which had been made would not be lest upon the noble lords who formed the select committee on our Indian terri tories. After a few words from the Earl of the Earl of AulawaiLs, The subject dropped. LUNACY. _ . The Lunatics Can anillice;itrieTi;t Bill, the Lunatic Asy lums Bill, and the Lunacy Regulation Bill, were severally passed through committee. BOROUGH OF_CLMBRIDGR. The Earl of ABERDEEN moved that their lordships concur in an address presented by the House of Commons for a commission to inquire into corrupt practices at else -1 lions for the borough of Cambridge. He said he need not go into the history of the case presented before the com mittee of the Commons, but he should content himself with moving that their lordships concur in the address. Lord ST. LEONARDS said he bad read through the whole of the evidence, and he regretted to say he had come te the conclusion that a committee was neesseary. Lord CAMPBELL had alro reed the evidence, which he thought fully justified the report which bad been made. The gentlemen selected to form the ecatmintion were wholly unexceptionable ; but he thought it was the duty of their lordships to exercise control in the appointment of commis aioners, considering the great amount of power which was vested in them. Ifs =Ws IMO then agreed to. SOUTH SBA COMMUTATION Oa the motion for going into committee on this bill, Earl GRANVILLE was understood to say that he be lieved several noble lords wished to speak on this bill, and be suggested that they should do so on the third reading. After a few words from Lord MONTRAOLZ, Lord ST. LEONARDS (who, as usual, spike in so low a isms of velar as to be all but inaudible in the gallery), wan understood to object to the bill as excluding suitors in Claneery, whose fuada were in South Sea Annuities or Cleuseis, from the advantages which other chums of holders twat have in taking either of the three alternatives Wind, vie., to take an interest of 3i with a reduction of npltel • an interest of 2) per cent., with an addition to petal ; or Exchequer Bonds. Ile would watch eke MP= of the bill with groat jealousy ; and he would all =Mir lordships to insist on suitors in Chancery being in exactly the same position as every other holda. WiFil all ask more for them, and he would ask no tae. TM LORD CHANCELLOR referred te detailed objeo them isbish appeared to have been made by the noble and bernril lied, and undertook, in regard to the operation of tho hill so far as it affected holders being suitors in Chan ces, in Consols, that be would do his utmost, by framing wild and general order, to meet all the exigencies of the am, and to procure equal justice to miters. With regard Is dos operations of the bill, so far sa it touched South Sea Ansuities holders he conceived that Chancery suitors would be placed in no unfair position whatever. This was unlike all other commutation bills in tits respect, that it provided that the holders (suitors in Chancery) could de cline any of the alternatives offered and select to remain in atlas quo, with the same stock, on the suse conditions. (So we understood the noble and learned lad.) Lord ST. LEONARDS was satisfied with the explana tions which the noble and I d lord bed item is to the first point. But on the snood point, the mak and learned lord seemed to be ander a misapprehension ; for he forgot . . , -sot be that beim emouliel Shot oeissisia Ch= Mail mei h. Y to seeeptimel exclusion to to estoo aeleers of stockodgsY ts the misfarturietudt is «pity seat Y iojusties end& ? Their lordship@ Wale be sem each a measure would cause immense illamMtelise and heartburaing ; eat be would say that he had puma days and nights in atimaptiep to faclitat• the seem allude* in the Court of Ohmserp, and that be mid EMI het ul that all that tires sad mumble would le latterly theme away, if an attempt was made to deal unietUy with the funds of the suitors. Earl ORAN VILLE was obliged to the noble and learned lord for his suggestions. This part of the measure was, we doubt, experimental,to see how the wind blew oa the Stock Eaehange ; and some slight alterations might be rendered nesam Th ary. e bal was then passed through committee, and The house adjourned at half-past eight. HOUSE OF COMM The Sraolos took tko chair at four o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. _ _ a, MAY 2. PUBLIC BUSINESS. PETITIONS PRESENTED. THE BUDOET.-117 Mr. SULLIVAN, from the Mayor and citizens of Kilkenny; Mr. ALEXANDER, from in habitants of the borough of Carlow; Mr. O'FLARERTV, meet numerously signed, from the Yndownits and graphi te's of the cosrts of the town of Galway ; against the intss *ice of the income tax in Irelaml. Mr. L. GOWER, from . . ; Ireland. Mr , L GOA a. , the working moo of Bunion, ia Staffordshire, in favour of the budget. Mr. MOFFATT, from Bradford, Yorkshire, praying for the immediate passing the resolutions for yrluo tiow of Customs' duties. Mr. TUFNELL. from tobacco dealers of Storehouse and Devonport ; Lord ANNESLEY, from the traders and shopkeepers of Great Grimsby; Kr. C. FOIIZTER., from Walsall ; against the increase of the license payment on tobacco and other eseisablo Sir B. HALL, from Rutlandshire, in favour of the Anemia measure. OPINING OP TEN CRYSTAL PALACE ON SUNDATS.—By Mr. DUNLOP, from inhabitants of the parish of All Saints, Liverpool ; Mr. J. NEELD, from the inhibition of Wootton Bassett, in egunty of Wilts; Mr. C. TURNER, from the inhabitants of Liverpool, and of the district d Windsor, Liverpool; from the minister!, churchwardens, and members of St. John's Church, Liverpool; from -the ' congregation of the church, and inhabitants of the district of St. Bride's, Liverpool; against. Ihtivaasirr Ts/m.—By Mr. E. LOCKHART, from the Conimissionen of Supply of the county of Fife ; Mr. BAIRD, from a congregation in Scotland • against. Mr. A. HASTIE, from the Session of the United Presbyterian err egation, Eglington street, Glasgow; Sir J. ANDER SOH, from the Glenkens, Galloway; Mr. HUME, from Montrose ; in favour of the bill. MAYNOOTR GRANT.—By Col. BLAIR, from the emigre nation of the free church of Scotland, at Curnnock (Apr shire), against. OCCUPATION OF Roma ET TRE FRENCR.—By Mr. T. BUNCOMBE, from inhabitants of Paisley, Glasgow, Shef ' field, Manchester, Bradford (throe), Secular Society, Derby, inhabitants of London (five), Macclesfield, Warwick, Waltham Abbey, congregation of Woking Chapel, in habitants of Guildford, congregation of Perry-hill Chapel, 'Wepplesdon, Surrey, congregation of Horsell Chapel, Burley ; against. OCEAN PENNY POSTAOI.—By Mr. MOFFATT, from Wiebech, in favour of. PUBLIC-nousts (SCOTLAND) BILL.—By Sir E. BERING (two petitions), and by Mr. LOCKE (one) ; Mr. DUN LOP, from the free presbytery of Ayr ; in favour of this bill. Vrranste SOLDIERS.—By Mr. A. HASTIE, from 46 old soldiers, whose average age was 64, stating that they had , gone through the Peninsular war, had been at the battle of ' Waterloo, and had received several wounds; and praying that their cue might be taken into consideration. He gave notice to move that the petition should be printed with the votes. ADVERTISEMENT Dury.—By Mr. FRENCH, from two editors of newspapers in Ireland, praying for the abolition of this duty; Sir J. SHELLEY, from a person in West minster, who described himself as a contractor for adver- tisanenis in omnibuses, against the reduction of the duty on advertisements in newspapers. Lincoates.—By Mr. M. MILNES, from Pontefract, against say reduction of the duty on the impost of this root. LAW or MARRIAOII.—By Mr. KERSHAW, from Chas ter, Stockport, and other places, in favour of a bill to le galise marriage with &deceased wife's sister ; Mr. BRIGHT, from 3,000 inhabitants of Manchester, landing several dis uniting ministers, and upwards of 300 married women ; Mr. TUFNEL, from several places in the county of Devon ; in favour of the same object. COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. A further report from this committee was laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. TOTNESB ELECTION. Mr. LASCELLES brought up the report of this com mittee declaring that Mr. Mills had been duly elected for the borough of Tone's. RETURNS ORDERED. On the motion of Mr. TOLLEMACHE, return of the amount of postage money actually received by the Post office, for mails conveyed by steamers and other vessels under contract with her Majesty's government; specifying the particular lines of such contract steamers and vessels, and the countries to and from which the mails are con veyed. On the motion of Mr. HUME, lists of all articles on which customs duties were payable in the year 1851 on importation into the United Kingdom, showing, in columns, , the name of the article ; the quantity imported, exported, and retained for home consumption in 1851; the net amount of ditty received ; the present rates of duty ; and the proposed rates of duty. And, of all articles imported duty free in 1851; and of inch articles, then subject to duty, as it is proposed shall be admitted duty free under the new tariff. ISLE OF MAN. Mr. EWART asked whether the measures proposed to be adopted in reference to the fiscal champs its the Isle of Man are yet prepared, and if so, when they would be laid before the boast. Also, whether any snmenne had been adopted to promote a more frequent communication by mail with that island during winter. Mr. WILSON was understood to say that the proposed changes with regard to the import duties in the late of Man were in a state of great forwardness. He was not yet pre pared to say what they were ; but the increase a duty would be exceedingly small. The other matter, du to the mall communication, was under the consideration of the Post-office authorities. PRISON DISCIPLINE. Sir H. HALFORD asked, with reference to a petition from the justices of Leicestershire, whether the government intended to introduce any measure for adapting the law regarding prisons to the system of separation of prisoners, as applied to those under sentence of bard labour, and gene rally in order to carry out the recommendation of the select committee of that house on prison discipline in 1850 ? Viscount PALMERSTON said it appeared that the ma gistrates of Leicester had established a rule in the prison that persons sentenced to tura labour should be employed eight hours a day in turning a erans ; end that if they ob jected or refused to do so, they should be deprived of some portion of their daily meals. It had appeared to the late Hems Secretary that that regulation was not borne out by law, and he behoved that opinion was well founded. If the hon. baronet asked if it was the intention of the govern ment to bring in an act to legalise such a punishment, be would state that such was not their intention. (Hear.) BOLTON ELECTION. Lord R. GROSVENOR reported, from the committee in this case, that Mr. Barnes and Mr. Crook were duly elected, and that the petition of George Greenhalgh was frivolous and vexatious. (Cheers.) PIRACY ON THE COAST OP BORNEO. Mr. T. BARING asked whether any measures had been adopted by the govethimmt to protect British commerce against piratical proesediess en the coast of Benno. Sir I. GRAHAM seta that representations had been made to the government with respect to certain pro esedinip said te be pirating ea the coast of Borneo. In eseompisse of these tions, orders had been ten to the sanded esminw that if similar representations should be mist& to him, he was to exercise his discretion in taking preenetions for tie sepressioa of such proceedings. At the same time, cadets bad been given that he should take care in his lestreedeas that evidence of piney should be obtained before has was used, such as would he sails factory before any boort of Admiralty. Further, that it was not the policy of the government to establish any colony, or seek for any acquisition of territory on the main land of Borneo. (Hear, hear.) SAVINGS BANKS. Mr. WHALLEY asked whether it wee intended to afford further protection for savings banks deposits, sad generally to provide for the mote economical administration by go- vernment of these institutions ? Mr. WILSON said it wee the intention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in conformity with a premiss made in an early part of the session, to introduce a bill on the subject. HACKNEY CARRIAGES BILL. Mr R. INGLIS asked whether Mr. Fitzroy would con `l refer this bill - sect committee t at the came time with reference to no long a period of seven year', I think that great difficulty would int Thereforimy hon. friend will not interpret me as giving any pledge on tits subject. MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES. In answer to a intion from Mr. SPOONIIit, Lord J. RUSSE LL said that the miscellaneous estimate+ would be brought forward after the financial meuures had been disaosed if. THE DUTIES ON SUCCESSIONS. Lord A. VANE asked whether the duty on successions would be levied on property under settlement ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I am not aware of any distinction between property under settle ment and property under trust. Certainly, it is the main object of the bill of the government to take away the ex emption which property obtains from legacy duty by that means. (Hear, hear.) By the bill of the government pro petty under settlement will hate no preference whatever as such. THE INCOME-TAX RESOLUTIONS. The house then went into committee of ways and means, Mr. Bouverie in the chair, and the adjourned debate was resumed by Sir W. CLAY, who expressed his belief that the feeling of his csinstituents and the rest of the metropolis was deci dedly in approval of the measures of the government. He thought the scheme wise and prudent, as well as bold and comprehensive, and held out the prospect of laying a sound foundation for our fiscal system. The scheme rested mainly on the property and lucerne tax, and must be abandoned if the resolutions before the committee were negatived. The abolition of the income tax would create a deficiency of 6,000,0001., and he had not heard any one state by what means such a deficiency was to be supplied. The main pound of contention was the extension of the income tax to IrUad. He confessed it was not without embarrassment be approached that question, not because he enter tained any doubt as to the wisdom or the justice of such a measure; but his difficulty was, that he had to address himself especially to the representatives of Ireland. While he would not dictate to those hon. members, he must tell them that it would be matter of regret, should it become a prevalent opinion in England that there was an inclination, ea the part of Irish members, to resist on slight and instil/11- ' dent grounds, the extension of the income tax to their own country. (Hear, hear.) He agreed with the bon member for Kerry, that nothing but the strongest ease et necessity or of justice, could warrant them in seeking *save their countrymen from a just share of the burdens el general taxation—(bear, hear) ; and, as yet, he thought no such case had been made out. The right bon. gentle man, the member for Portsmouth (Sir F. Baring), said, that whereu they were making a large remission with re gard to England and Scotland, they were making no cor reeponding remission with regard to Ireland. He went on to say, that in 1860 the relative state of the two countries would be this, that whereas England would have been re• lieved by the remission of taxation to the amount of 6,715,0001., Ireland would only have been relieved to the extent of 245,0001. per annum, the charge for the consoli dated attitudes. minus 198,0001. for the increase of the _ _ *tit duties, making the net relief of Ireland only 47,000/. If the argument of the right bon. gentleman were fully car ried oat, it would render the remission of taxation impossi ble. There was neither a soap tax nor a house tax fa Ire. land to be repealed ; the spirit duty, even with the proposed increase, would not amount to half the duty in England; and if the argument of the right hon. gentleman were _good for scything, it went to this extent, that there s h ou ld be no emnission in England because there oould not bt a corns spading one in Ireland. Great stress was laid on tba fast eat the Consolidated Annuities were created on meotat of a calamity which was said to be imperial. It should not be itipitass, however, that 10,000,0001. was voted by patlia sost for immediate relief, that there was a grant of 1,110,0001. for the construction of union workhouses, and that the subscriptions from private benevolence amounted to no leas than 2,000,0001. After this, could it be right that England and Scotland, in addition to paying their own share of the burden of taxation, should be called upon for that of Ireland ? (Hear, hear.) He admitted that Ire land had past wrongs to complain of, he even admitted that there were some still unredeemed—(heer, hear) ,--but these wrongs were net fi nancial towards Ireland, though England herself had suffered in a pecuniary point of view, by the misgovernment and oppression of that country. It was said that Ireland ought not to pay the income tax because she had two churches to maintain. The nonconformists of this country were in a similar position ; yet who ever heard of their urging It as a reason why they should not contribute their fair share of taxation. (Hear, hear.) The anticipated extinction of the income tax in 1860 involved, he conceived, the most impor tant questions, as well social as civil. The reduction of customs and excise duties between 1831 and 1851 amounted to 22,662,0001., and it was not too much to say that it was the working classes who had received the largest there of benefit; and though he did not say that they should not pro coed in the course which they hadbeen pursuing, be thought there were abundant grounds to justify the right hon. gentleman in proposing to place it in the power of the house to exercise a free voice on the whole 'abject in 1860. (Hear, hear.) After the remission of the soap duty, and the reduction of the tea duty to the extent of Is. per lb. bo doubted whether it would be possible to show that any isoulderable portion of the working man's wages went to sopport the burdens of the state. (Hear, hear.) At least is might be said—what could not have been said formerly— that as small a proportion of his earnings was thus taken as was required from those who had incomes of 160/. • par and upwards. To this he must add that the prospect at the labour market was such as it bad not been for half a century, perhaps such as it had sever been known to be before in this country. (Hear, hear.) Looking at the facilities of commune= Mon with rich and undeveloped countries of the earth, and at the evident tendency to a rise in wages, he thought no man could doubt that in the next few years the working man would be enabled to protect himself and to secure ade taste remuneration. He rejoiced at this prospect, but it certainly bore on the question whether the income tax should not be reduced if not abolished as soon as practicable. He bad abstained from going into the merits of the budget sea whole; but it was his opinion that as a whole the edema was useful and valuable, that it combiaed with the relief of taxation the closing of more than one ques liaM of great financial difficulty—(hear, hear)—that at =lord from the minds of large duns a well-fininded hasp of injustice; and that it tended to lay a sureCand use -1k) basis for our future fiscal system. With these views, it was his Intention to support it, and he thought it deserved the support of the house and the country. (Cheers.) Sir F. KELLY said, an hon. gentleman to whom they might naturally have looked as a leader in that debate, had chosen to become a follower of the Chancellor of the Ex chequer ; he referred to the hon. member for Montrose. (Hear, hear.) Ministers had, with one or two exceptions, observed a miraculous silence. The right hon. gentleman, however, in his gigantic oration, pointed out most convinc ingly how the owners of land under the income tax were made to pad no less than 9d. in the pound, whereas by law and in justice it ought to be assessed only at 7d. ; and when hon. members on that (the opposition) side bent llerwatd, arreefis =rano, to hear from a sympathising Obotellor of the Exchequer what remedy was to be ap plied to this great grievance, they were suet with the oon 'Watery assurance that if the house would consent to the budrt, ministers would heap on the owners of land an additional and permanent burden of something like 2,000,0001. per annum—(opposition cheers)—this being ac companied with some gentle and encouraging indications of an Increase of the malt tax. This, when those who were connected with land looked to the government for redress, they were met with the promise of a large increase of the already intolerable weight of their burdens. (Hear.) He op these resolutions the ' that *" sent to refer 5... t0 a Mr. FITZROY — safdl he should certainly very much de precate reforricg the bill tea select committee, as that would be to give up all idea of paring it this session. (Hear, hear.) It was a bill which he conceived would very much contribute to the illiterate of the public; he should therefore take all the means in his power for getting it passed as early as possiblot (Rear, hear.) In answer to a Dirthet question from Sir R. Inome, Mr FITZROY said be proposed to take the committee on the bill next day, not later than 12 o'clock. THE BUDGET.—ORDER OF PROCEEDING WITH THE RESOLUYIONS. Mr. MOFFATT inquired when the tea duty resolutions would be introduced. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I posed . _. on , ground _ they were part of a scheme of taxation which was pregnant with new and enlarged and intolerable burdens upon the already oppressed landed interest of this country. He opposed them because by them it wu sought to extend the income tax to Ireland without any justification, and without any necessity. He opposed them because they would continuo the in come tax in this country, unmitigated and un changed, for a further period of seven years. He would not enter upon a discussion of all the various topics and interests which were touched by the scheme of the right hon. gentleman. In common with the entire country he concurred in several parts of the scheme of the right hon. gentleman. He 'greed with him in those re ductions and remissions of taxes which he proposed, but it must have occurred to many minds as somewhat singular and strange that whereas the right bon. gentleman pro posed to reduce or remit 2,500,0001. per annum of taxa tion, the whole of that amount was to be levied in the shape of aew taxation from the owners of land in this country and from Ireland. (Hear, hear.) And it was no lea strange that the very time selected for imposing these new burdens on Ireland, and on the owners ef land in this country was when they were recovering from a state of great depression. (Hear, hear.) He had not heard any reason, or anything like a reason, assignei for selecting this particular time to an income tax or The quite aware of the impeennes of the question which the hon. gentleman has pat, and am desirous to answer it. Bat the house has it in its own discretion to prolong or curtail those dismission. on which our proceedings must depend, After the vote on the ineome tax resolutions, we shall pea. pose the legacy duty resolutions. After those resolutions are agreed to, we shell propose the second reading of the income tax bill. We shall then propose the second reading of the spirit duties bill, when it will be competent to the gentleman who notice of his intention the other --- • - . . impose Ireland, where no machinery existed for carrying the sys tem out. He now came to a most important part of the subject—the inequalities in the schedules. The right hon. gentleman proposed to continue the tax In its present form , that was to Bey, with all its admitted inequa lity and injustice, for seven years. To that he answered that this was a violation of the fundamental principle of taxation in this country—that every man was to be taxed according to his ability. (Hear, hear.) The committee ' to bear in mind that this we.' the principle of taxation The following resolutions were agreed to:— On the motion of Mr. T. PARKER, that the standing orders, NJ. 170 and 174 be suspended, and that the Freston Waterworks Bill, es amended, be considered to-morrow, provided amended prints shall have been deposited this On the motion of Mr. DROTHERTON, that the report j from the select committee on standing orders, in the case for additional provison in the Holm. Reservoirs (No. 2) Bill be read; that it be an instruction to the committee on the bill, that they have power to make provision therein pursuant to the prayer of the said petition. The following bills were severally read a third time and pared .—Norwich Waterworks ; Reading Market; and Weston-Super-Mare Waterworks; Bills. The following bills were severally read a second time Barnsley Waterworks (No. 2) ; Sidney Susses Estate: , sa g Witham Drainage ; Bills. The following bills having been considered, were ordered to be read a third time :—Belfast and Ballymena ; Bytom Counties Railway (Woodford and J., oug ht on ; Ilaslingen and Rawtenstall Waterworks; Le,. 43" (N o. 2) (Amman:elite to be proposed) Manch , ster, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire Railway (alteration of ca pit a )) ; p r iw s l'atent Candle Company 1;4o. 2) ; and Vi igen Waterworks and I'olicc ; Bills. farmers whose profit% quite equalled their rent, while there were others who by no means obtained half in annual profit. (Hear, hear.) Unless some alterations were made in these points he should oppose the resolutions in every staite. He knew that the g, ntle.nen with whom he acted did not pm sees the ability of those who on the opposite side combined in such str.ingc harmony and concert. lie and his friends did nut possess the facility of allowing principle to ? give of Ironical way to the exigencies .._ a ministry. .(l. ~ cheers). They were however identified with the feelings and interests of vast numbers of the most industrious of the people. It was in the name of those classes he told the ministers, that they would be ultimately forced to yield to necessity that which they now refused ;es ji.siee, and that the voices of the people of the United Kingdom would before long insist that these numerous inequalities should cease. Mr. LOWE said that, considering the part of the country from which the hon. and learned gentleman came, it might be inferred that he intended to support the amendment of the boo. baronet the member for Hertfordshire ; although by what legal ingenuity his speech could be supposed to have that effect, he (Mr. Lowe? was totally at a loss to dis• cover. The amendment said that st would be unjust to continue theincome tax tor 7 years without redressing its inequalities. and that it was unjust to extend it to the classes net now pay ing it without first removing those inequalities. That, too, was the purport of the bon. and learned gentleman's speech. But if he had proved anything, it was not that there were inequalities, but exactly the contrary. To prove his case, the hon. and learned gentleman should have established that there were inequalities between the different 'schedules, and that persons assessed under one schedule were better off than those who were . d under another ; but what he had established was something like a sermon on the vanity of human wishes, and the fleeting nature of human treasures. (" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) The hon. and learned gentleman had shown that according to his view, every one of the schedules was treated with inequality. He began with land, which he said paid 9d., when it ought to pay but 7d., and then he added that which was net cor rect—that the legacy duty would fall upon land, whereas he must have known that a large portion of that duty would fail on other property. (Hear, hear.) And the honourable and learned gentleman went on to say that the land was pressed down by so many burdens that he (Mr. Lowe) expected he would conclude by showing that all the schedules were better off than land, and nut that he would have gone on to prove that trades, proles sloes, end other incomes, were equally badly off. Nothing, the hun. and learned gentleman said, could be more miserable than the condition of the farmers, who were as : messed upon their rents, although they were making no profits; but he forgot to tell the house that if the farmer was making no profits, he was not awned on this rent at all, and would pay no income tax. (Hear, hear.) But the point of the hon. and learned gentleman's argument as to schedule 13 was that the hardship merle it even us great as those under schedule A. Next in this army of martyrs— (a laugh)—came the fundholders, and the argument in this case was that to tax the funds was a violation of the act of larliamept and of the national faith. But the ho n . and earned gentleman was not more happy in showing that schedule E was more unequal in its operation than schedules . _ • schedv A and B. And with regald to _....adule Dhe could hardly congratulate the hon. sad learned gentleman on the aptness of the example he brought forward to prove the severity with which that schedule operated when lie quoted the case of the late Sir W. Follett, who he believed was one of the moat successful advocates that had ever practised, and had made the largest fortune that had ever been made at the bar. (Hear, hear.) The bon. and leaned gentle man might as well almost have endeavoured to enlist the compassion of the house for himself. (Cheers and laughter.) What the hon. and learned gentleman proposed was, that every person paying income tax, under whatever schedule, was entitled to a large reduction—that in every case there was:inequality, and to remove that inequality that an equal quantity should be taken from cash. (" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) The honourable and learned gentleman seemed to suppose that the problem was to be solved by the application of the same principle that prevailed in assurance offices of averaging lien, but that would by no means meet the difficulty of the case. It might very well suit an assurance office to take the average duration of human life, and fix the rate of the premiums so as to secure itself from loss by a system of compensation—that was making the lona lives compensate for the short. There there was a voluntary contract between the parties, and the parties were willing to bear the inequality; but it was not so with regard to the income tax, consequently the case did not apply. It did not appear that the hon. and learned gentleman, or the other members who had spoken on the other side of the house, did justice to the argument of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. They seemed to forget that his right hon. friend started from this proposition, that it was an income tax, and not a property tax, that was the immense resource to be kept in reserve, to be brought out only in time of very great necessity, and re sorted to only while the necessity continued. Hon. gen tlemen, however, would preserve the tax, and to make it permanent they wished it to be graduated, and they would take Schedule D and reduce the tax under it to sd. ; but when they thus destroyed the income tax, and made it something else—when they had substituted for the tempo rary income to a bad and one-sided but permanent pro perty tax, what became of the resource to fall back upon in the hour of dieleu:ty ? (Hear, hear.) But it had been welled that the way to preserve the income tax as a re ,' scares was to maks it just; and that when you had arranged it ea just and equal principles, then you could preserve it MI be used in the hour of peril. Now, nothing could be more fallacious than the idea of making the income tax "just." You could never make it jest in the sense in which Mr. Mills and others who took the same view used it, that was in the sense of making it bear equally on all. It was said there was no reason why some of the more flagrant inequalities of the tax which struck us at first sight might not be removed. Suppose they entered upon the task, where would they stop ? Take ache. dole D, and he would put his own case. He was the pro prietor of property in Sydney, as valuable, and he believed it to be more so than it would be were it in London ; he derived from that property an income, yet he paid no in come tax upon it. Would aot the professional man say, and say with justice, if you attempted to remove these ine qualities—" here is a gentleman with as large or a larger in come than am making from my profession, and while I have to pay a tax on the whole of mine, he, because he derives it from one of our foreign possessions, pays none—why should my income be taxed, while his is ex empt?" they turned to Schedule E there were the same glaring inequalities. A man who had an income from Terminable Annuities which expired in 1860 might reason ably complain that he paid the same rate of tax as the holder of permanent annuities. And turning to Schedule C, the under secretaries of the Treasury might reasonably complain that they, whose tenure of office depended per haps upon an ill-timed word in a debate, or upon the acci dent of half-a-dosen members being shut out from a divi sion, should pay the same tax as the permanent secretary, whose office was for life. (" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) It was hopeless to attempt to introduce equality, and to con tend for such a principle was to throw the apple of discord amongst all classes. (Hear, hear.) To carry out that principle they would have to subdivide every schedule into almost innumerable classes, and the classes would have to be subdivided again until they came down to individual eases, in which they would have to take into consideration the age, health, family, and every incident of human life. The hon. and learned gentleman had been extremely pa thetic in reference to the extension of the tax to Ireland. lie seemed to suppose that it was in the power of the state to remit taxes at its pleasure for any class, and that when they were remitted from one body of the people the money had not to be paid by anybody else. That was not the case, for in public finance the expenditure was first fixed, and then the ways and means must be provided, so that if any one clue of penou were relieved from their fair portion of the necessary evotribution to make up the gross amount, an extra burden must fall upon the rest to cover the deficiency thus occasioned. The hon. and learned gentleman would exempt Ireland when it was proposed to levy the income tax on incomes over 1001. a year, but the hon. and learned gentleman mast remember that, if Ireland did not pay the 400,0e01. it was calculated would be thus raised, somebody else must pay it, and that somebody else was Great Britain. (Hear, hear.) And he wanted to know what ground the people of Ireland had I call on the of Great Britain to - her burdens to --t on people pay her for her ? (Hear, hear.) The principle of free trade was one of gradual sad social equality—its object and its tendency was that no class of her Mejetty's subjects should be taxed for the benefit of any other class, and, consistently with that principle, how could any one get up and justify the levying taxes on Great Britain, and exonerating Ireland ? But with regard to Ireland, the re mina°. or she Consolidated Annuities wt.. a WI yquivalent hr the tax. It was true that one part of Ireland was not liable to the Consolidated Annuities, and it was said You were placing a new burden on the people there." But was it fair or honourable to the people of this country, that those parts of Ireland that were prosperous, and had suf fered no distress, should be exempt from their share of the public burden, ? (Hear.) If they wore to exclude Ireland from th• present arrangement, they mast bid adieu to financial reform. They had heard a great deal lately about tenant right but with what consistency would the advocates of tenant right resist a measure the result of which would be to take the burden off the poor cattier, who was now subject to the annuity rate, and place it upon thmeof persons the poorest among whom mast possess 1001. a year. The hon. and learned member for Belfast had told the house they must not take credit for relieving Ireland of the consolidated an- . _ pliant gentleman ..-- gave u- __ ___ ought r r . _ -- -- -- ----- day to contest the principle of that bill, to take the opinion in this country. To propose, therefore, for a period of 1 nuities, for the never meant to pay them. (No, no.) That tax bill into committee, took. i Hear , . hear," and " No.") What did that amount of the house upon it. After that bill is read • second time, seven years, with a prospect of its being permanent, an in • was the line of argument the hon. and learned gentleman we pro to carry the income come tax which levied the . came amount oa permanent losing no time, so far as depends on the government, in and precarious Incomes violated the first principles to ? That Insh . gentlemen came to that house and said, carrying those measures through their successive stages, of justice. (Hear, hear.) The injustice and me- " You over-estimate our credit—you think we are people After the committee oa the income tax bill, we shall then quality of the tax were admitted on all aides, and who mean to pay our debts, and not to be insolvent—no propose at once all the resolutions that relate to customs that 'being so, it wan his opinion that it would thing of the kind ; you had better write off this debt at duties ; and those remissions will take effect from the day be far better to look for some other means of taxation than once, for we on which .:rie resolutions shall be voted and reported to the to an income tax which so obviously violated every prin- laughter, and cries of " Oh" from the Irish members.) house. (Hear, hear.) dple of justice. (Rear.) The hon. member for Stoke bad Then the right hon. member for Portsmouth said it was been cited as a great authority, having gone into the cont. a pity to introduce the income tax to Ireland, SECONDARY PUNISHMENTS. mittee impressed with the inequality, and come out equally for it would tend to demoralise the people, and teach them Sir. J. PAKINGTON said it wan desirable that the impressed with the impossibillty of rectification. He (Sir to cheat the government. (" Oh, oh," and laughter.) eon ntry should be informed what were the intentions of F. Kelly) did not deny the difficulty of the task, but that was That argument he thought he might well leave to be t)'.e government with regard to the important subject of no reason why they should shrink from it. He did not think answered by the hon. and learned member for Belfast. 'secondary punishments. it was possible to do exact justice, but yet such an apprexl. (Hear, hear.) The hon. and learned member for Belfast Lord J. RUSSELL said he could not name a day for nation might be made as would greatly mitigate the suffer. said this was a rate in aid, but had the hon. and learned bringing the subject under the consideration of the house ings of the classes who now complained so loudly. In member any right to complain of it on that score, seeing I until the commercial questions now before the house were Den equal tax was levied on certain incomes, and that the rate in aid was borne not by Ireland only, but by disposed of. on the profits arising from uncertain professions. It was Great Britain also? (Hear.) Were the terms we were DURATION OP THE INCOME TAX. schedule said th,t it was impossible to graduate the latter, but he constantly using, " the United Kingdom of Great Britain Mr. PACKE wished to ask the Chancellor of the Es- would suggest that, according to their comparative precs. and Ireland," meaningless forms and shame, or were they chequer (having his assurance that the income tax should riousness, they might he calculated in periods at frem sto truth? He took it that in dealing with Ireland we wore ewe at the end of seven yeah) whether he would give an 10 year!, and • reduction made as compared with the not to be understood as negotiating treaties with a foreign aption to compound for the future payment of the tax by • Seed incomes of from 25 to 33 per cent. He did not say country, or adjusting terms with those who had ri g hts payment in one sum, or by instalments. that this arrangement would he perfect, but it would be at conflicting with our own. He wished to see Ireland re- The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I am least an approximation to justice. The cue of the farmer, garded in allthings as an integral part of the empire. (Hear.) quite willing to promise to take • matter of this kind into also, required alteration. At present the farmer rented at Wo ought to look upon Ireland as we did upon Yorkshire ---lduation. 1 should be very glad if it could be done ; 400/. a year, was taxed at 2001. But there were many .or Hampshire, and it would be as reasonable to have sera rate accounts with those counties as it was to have separate accounts with Ireland. (Cheets.) He w as anxious to see the work of the censaidation of the t napire rrogress, and the first step towards it was the equal:eation of taxation. (Hear.) Whateva might be the errors hon. g. ntlemen opposite might discover in the budget he thought his right hon. friend was entitled to great credit for it. (Hear.) It had been framed in no mean or servile spirit, but upon broad and comprehensive principles. It was true the Chuccellor of the Exchequer might have adopted the rough justice of the right hon. member for Buckinghamshire, and introduced a principle which would have frittered the income tax to atoms and rendered it;useless, if it bad been required fur any future emer gency. lie might have proposed its continuance for three years as that right hon. gentlemen did, nut, he was per suaded, with any intention of their getting rid of it ; but under the plea of making it more tolerable, though be knew well that was impossible. Or he might have proposed to levy the income tax on funds and official salaries only in Ireland; but he had preferred to come forward fairly with a plan for continuing it fbr a limited period, and ex tending it, while it continued, to Ireland as well as England and Scotland. (" Hear, hear," and cheers.) His right lion. friend had never pledgad himself that the tax would be extinguished at the end of the seven Jean. (Cries of " Hear, hear," from the opposition.) so one knew better than Isis right hon. friend that no one parlia ment could pledge another, and that in 1860 the question would again be debated, and be decided upon its merits and the requirements of the country at the time. All his right hon. friend did was to show that in 186) the tax might, according to ordinary computation, supposing no ex traordinary occurrence took place,be dispensed with. His right lion. friend had refrained from courting temporary popularity, by stating that the tax would certainly cease in seven years, and motives equally honourable had induced him boldly to propose that while it continued in operation Ireland should be liable to it, in order that when the time came to decide whether the emergency was sufficient to justify the pro longation of the tax, the discussion might not be distracted by a debate as to whether it ought to be extended to Ire land. (Hear, hear.) He thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer was entitled to the confidence of the house and of the country for his budget, and he believed the princi ples he had laid down in it would do him even more credit than the able speech with which he introduced it. (Cheers.) Mr. I. BUTT, whose rising was the signal for a general clearing of the treasury bench, from which Mr. Lowe had addressed the hour, and where Mr. Wilson only remained, gave a decided opposition to the income tax as an imperial measure, and a determined opposition to it on Irish grounds. With regard to the budget generally, he maintained that its effect would be to oppress the poorer elutes in both king doms, while the principal benefits which it proposed were the relief of those who rode in the their own carriages, and an increase in the number of attorneys. Returning to the subject of Ireland (for the third or fourth time), he sug gested a select committee to inquire into the capacity of that country to pay the ox with which it was proposed to burden her. After a personal attack upon Mr. Cobden, for his " slander" of Ireland on Friday evening, which he chal lenged him to prove, ho concluded by opposing the moti on , whether considered as relating simply to the income tax or to the budget as a whole. Mr. Serjeant MURPHY could not see why—as an in come tax must inevitably, sooner or later, be extended to Ireland—he should now assist in turning out a ministry whom he had contributed to bring into power. It was the duty of members to consider questions in their relations to imperial interests, and nut with reference to particular lo calities ; and the present was essentially an imperial ques tion. He denied that Ireland had gained nothing by free trade, and had any right to claim exemption on that ground, and instanced the compensatory benefits offered by the budget as an additional reason why she should submit to the tax. The remission of the Consotidateil Annuuities had been admitted to be a great boon, and so was the reduction in the tea duties, for so popular was that beverage be. coming in Ireland, that in some cases (here some hon. members were observed to shake their heads) it was sub. stituted for whisky. There was a general rising on the opposition side when Mr. Serjeant bitterns sat down, but Mr. CONOLLY was the successful competitor. He made a long speech in oppo sition to the resolution. Mr. R. B. ROCHE maintained the justice of the Income Tax, from which he believed that Ireland would gain, espe cially OA regarded her tenant farmers, even mo re th an England. He supported the budget because he believed it to be a budget for the working classes, for the farmers, for the artisans, and for the people of Ireland. Mr. DISRAELI—Although there are several hon. mem bers representing places in Ireland who wish to address you, and who are desirous of answering the hon. gentleman who has just spoken (Mr. B B. Roche), still, as this debate has now lasted for a whole week, perhaps it is not pre sumptuous in me to express my opinion and the opinion of some English members upon the question before us, espe cially as, whether we divide to-night or not—and I for one hope that we may divide—there will be many occasions on which other hon. gentlemen may offer their opinions, for I st present we are only upon the threshold of the debate. tinder these circumstances, sir, I take das liberty of offering some observations. In con sidering the budget of the Chancellor of the Exchequer with all that attention which so considerable a ' proposition deserves, I am bound to say that to the general principles upon which its financial policy is framed, I must give my entire approbation. (Hear, bear.) I state that in no spirit of affected i . patronage, nor to obtain credit for a magnanimity which is not required by the occasion ; but I say it because I find in the principles upon which it is framed the identical principles which, only four months ago, on two occasions, upon the other side of the table, I endeavoured to impress upon the consideration of this house. (Cheers from the opposition benches.) Sir, I said then that I thought the time had arrived when it was necessary to assimilate our financial policy to our new commercial system. (Hear, hear.) I do not know who said " Hear, hear ;" I think it was the noble lord opposite (Lord J. Russell). I think also it was he who, four months ago rose, and in a spirit, certainly of incredulity if not of ridicule, spoke of the idea of assimilating our financial policy to our new commercial system, as a wild conception which had nothing to do with the practical affairs of life. (Laughter.) He said then, Sir, that "in order to assimi late our financial policy to our new commercial system, we must make up our minds to commence and complete an en tire revision of our taxation." Will the noble lord say " Hear, hear," to that? Because I remember, when ha made the observation before—but four short months ago— the noble lord said, "It was most ridiculous to enter upon a complete revision of our taxation ; that our taxation had been revised more than once ; and that any thing like a financial revision of taxation was unnecessary and out of the question ; that all we could do was to let the principles which had been established with respect to our finances operate in a natural manner, and that any effort to have a formal revision of taxation was a thing that could never influence the affairs of the world." I am ex tremely glad to hear at the commencement of my observa tions that the noble lord has changed his opinion. But, sir, it was not merely the noble lord who held these opinions. We had a very able Speech, unfortun-tely deli vered in a thinner house than it deserved, from a member of the administration (Mr. Lowe), the Secretary of a Board -1 believe the Secretary of a Board because he made a speech against the last budget—and what did that hon. gentleman say ? The hon. gentleman the Secretary of the Board of Control "saw no case made out for this revision of taxation " in the month of December last ; " all that they—i. e., the house—had to do, was to continue going on as they had gone on throughout—(laughter)—and, when the surplus could be disposed of, it should be by making further remissions of taxation, upon the same principle as former remissions had been made. He held that, when this was done, all was done that a wise government could do under the circumstances." But, great as was the indignation of the present government, because I had re course to a method which was necessary to carry out my policy, namely, the creation of a deficiency to be supplied by new taxation, their indignation was still greater at the fact that I should presume to anticipate the management of our finances at a period more advanced than the termination of the impending financial year. I must quote upon this sub ject again from the words of the hon. member for Kidder- Minster (Mr. Lowe), because not only is he an hon. but also a very high minded member. He has told us to-night be is one of those who will never sacrifice anything for ephemeral popularity—(hear, hear,)—he is a man who will sot to-day say one thing and to-morrow another to gain any temporary end. Listen to the words of the hon. mem ber for Kidderminster. Mark that in oeder to carry into effect a complete revision of our financial system it was Recesaary to have recourse to two proesailioge. The first was to create a deficiency by the remission of taxes, which only could be supplied by others. The second was, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, engaged in such an enter prise, must seek to control the financial arrangements of more than tie financial year. That, however, did not meet with the approval of the hon. member (Mr. Lowe) ; he said, " the right hon. gentleman " (meaning myself). " had given them two budgets to consider—one for 1853, tho other for 1854. The wisest man would have enough to de in attempting to take a correct view of the financial condi tion of a great country, even for a single year." (Cheers and laughter.) And now we have a budget for seven years. But not content with this we have other financial proposi• lions which fix the rate of interest for nearly half a cen tury. (Hear.) Well, Sir, having given my apprebation of the general principles upon which the financial scheme of the government is founded—because, as I asserted, those prin ciples are identical with the principle 'upon which my own was founded. (Derisive cheers.) Tho process is the same —(oh, oh)—but the application of the principle may be different ;—(laughter)—and as the Chancellor of the Ex chequer seems to scoff al my assertion, I shall take the liberty of establishing the propriety of my observation. I come now to see whether I can give the same approbation to the application of those principles. And, first, I will esnaider the resolution to which the amendment of my hon. friend the member for Hertfordshire especially refers, namely, the resolution respecting the income tax. The right honourable gentlemen proposed that we should continue this tax for the term of seven years. (Hear, hear.) It is a tax which never in our time has been proposed for a term of the same duration. (Hear, hear.) Irrespective of all other considerations, I shall advert to the recommendation the right hon. gentle man gives to the tax on account of its term. The right hon. gentleman objects to provisional budgets, or to having our national finances in a state which is not established and confirmed, not does he think that any arm of our finance should be of a temporary or doubtful character. Hers is a publication, a great authority I am told, which seems to express a similar opinion. I allude to an article in the Economitt newspaper. (Laughter.) The article is headed " The budget, its great polital features ;" and it goes on to say—" Nothing could be more disgraceful to a great nation, or more injurious to its best interests, than to permit its financial condition to be exposed to the uncertainty which THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, MAY 3, 1853.