The Express. — London, England, 1853-04-09 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY BVENING, APRIL 9, 1858 ~,,,,▪ d a rable soma. If you balance year alternatives pro ray stns sgaiast the other, you will hod that the increase a y lig. per e , sit. w..t be more than redeemed by the home to., J misae t of the capital of the debt by the . en g l en uf go '1 hree-and-a-llalf per Cs ot. Stock. (Hear.) ~c i bt, it you an to succeed in your operation, to be ambled to eller to the stock holder two alternatives as ai ms! able as two pins, if poesibie. You ought to be able i ,se bins the choice .1 %%As., two stocks, which should be a . warty espial in value that the choice could only be Jet, r ma,,g by bie prilerene• which be will take. It that b. the 0 ., the presumption is that you will h sve as much taken td r „, ate kas the other. (Hear. hear.) Mt HUME. —But suppose that should not be ? /be CHANCELLOR , of the EKCIIRQUEIt Then you tba Whiner right. 1 'amp it in the option . ▪ p u blic to pay or not to pay the in te rest which the stock. : t ..e is en to d 'TM sad. l do nor deny that the stock- F.d.sier Laois to the alresisite assomat of the stock as well as the annual interest, but I nay that he leaks to the annual ta utest in pseferes. - a to the amount of cupital. There jaw, d your duty to balance the two, to that , % L o y .hall be tea cleat preponderance of interest e gher way. It is y sue date so b. counterhalince the tul uatrops Coat the et-ck shall ant be on. quail; taken. In the ease or a former Operlitiall, the re.hse'l sit of the interest MB to per cost-, the terms suffered included alterna bees SCaRtISSMI of this kind. remiss holding the Four per Ceps e l . re offered two alternatives; the one was Ti!. of ▪ et .1 per teat., eil,ich wou'al hare briar an average so t. rest r l a.. hI ; the other was a cora at par, bearing an l*tere.t of 3 i per emit. Every hady riser the lOW. of et Cent stack, ratio r than the 751. of Fits per Cent. Because there was 1.1 elitforence la the rate of interest of c sum they chore the higher amount. (Ilene heir.) That is nit the ease here. Thy man who choose: the steremad-a-11.1 1 per Cent. stock must chums as aauuity a t 2/.1.15. • the to in who elvasees the Thres-sou'.-4-Half per Cs ut. -mei sal obtain :: a annuity of V. 17s. 61 . That is the d i sy Lee nce b , tween the cases. (1.1e.e. hear.) But this • quite dill. rent from the case of the Wait,. made during the war. (lhar, hear.) I have looked bad., like other men, to those 1-sine, and have groaned inwardly at the tosiopeesess. (Hear, bear.) The practiro of burrowing a t 3 per tent. daring the war, when the natural rate of in syrest was :lead per tent , secured us an advantage, it is true, at the time, but an advantage which was utterly in waiting. It lowered t int, rest at the time ; but it es,- tailed epee as a perinamoit deb!, which it is clear, if a wise system bad been pursues', we might have reduced by this time by something like one hundred to two hundred nosivais steel my (Hear, hear.) That was uudoubtedly an erronemis conic, and to repeat it would be most un wise. It was hotted entailing en exceedingly heavy charge ou p,sterity, oral Rival.; them a debt almost irredeemable for the sake of a very small present advantage. Surely th tt is not to be compared with a case of this kind, the whole basis of which as both advantageous at the present time am' to posterity. I am not psis g to sacrifice the intsrests of posterity, and to 'Med on them an additional burden ; but I am sicking to it CUM to I, aterity au absolute redoc ticn of the annual charge of the debt we now Tosco.. (Hear, hear.) But I beg the committee to uslers:and that white I urge these pleas on behalf of the proposal, I freely as-cut to the general doctrine, thst it is nut desirable to increase the nominal capital of the debt. (Hear, hear.) All I ask of you is this—that you will,-1 will nut say indulgently, fur indulgence is nut required,—but that you mid fairly and cat... Belly look at the use as it stands, and consider the public policy which we have in view. The govornment may be right or they may wrong in making any proposal of this kind ; bat it un quedienahly rest...p.m a broad ground. (Hear, hear.) I I said that the great obju ct which the government loud in view was to establish, it it be possible, an irredeemable I pul'ln sancta, which shill bear a respectable price in the ineek.t, and bear an interest of not more than tea and a half per cent. It Ia for that purpose that we pro;icise to include this amongst the venom farms of conversion which we shall leave open to the Three per Cent. stockholders. Perhaps you will tell me, " You will secure that object by means of the Exchequer bowls." I shall be delighted d do. (Hear, hear.) I trust we may. Bat we may Hod that we cannot float these Exchequer Bonds ; that us eaunot bring them into credit and character, unless we Site a power of redemption to the owners. That may be all very well ; hut any operation of that kind, which is to involve redemptioumt a particular time, when we may be in difficulties or war, must necessarily leo a limited opera tion, end does not lay the ground for what we want to see— sanely tho creation of a 21 per cent. irredeemable public stock. (live us this, and then I say we shall have lid a solid ground where it is now only a morass. We then can tread where now we cannot tread. We shall have a excel point, up to which, or rather down to which, we can work. We shall Mtn have something fined and cer tain, where now all is comp natively speculation and expe rinteat. (Hear, hear.) If the committee think it is a great public object to establish firmly this Two-and-a-Half per Cent. stock in such n manner as shall make it an ordinary subject of comm.rcial dealing, then I hope they will nut exe:ude this part of the prormition. If they do not, or if they think that the course we propota will cot be likely to effect that object, then I admit that nominally to increase the ca pital,/ the debt is per ut an evil (Cheers.) Now I come to the point to which I am meet maxi nu t• call the atten tion of the rommittee. It is said that, as the resolutions at first stood, it would b • open to ell the holders of Torte per Cent. Stark to effect this c emersion int, the new Two-and a-Half per Cent. Stock; and that the pecnienetion was, sr at least it was a supposablii case, that they would all effect that converses.. The fact of the holder, of 500 minions of Three per Cent. Stook, all ru.biug to exchange it for stock at Twomad-a-Half per Cent. would have effected • reduc tion in oar annual burdens, which would indeed have been gratifying to me ; it emend hive ;AT irded a relief to our bosoms, not for the present time merely, but for ever, of I think 1,500,0001. a year,—• most grate, sag circumstance. (lieu, hear) I was not 'antrum° cuough ta anticipate that. But it has home pointed out that this conversion, if fumy effected, would entail a nominal increase of the capital of the debt to the event of 50 millions. Per, I at once demur to that objection. I do not think that any mach increase ought to be allowed. (Hear, he ar ) It is not necessary for the purpose which we have in view. The purpose we have in view is to ley the foundation of a new irredeemable public stock, bearing a low rate of interest. For that great and essential purpose, we ask you to allow %I/ to create this 21 per cent. stock ; but it is not in the slightest degree aneesory that we should allow it to he carried to any such intent as would he sanctioueil by the terms included in this resolution. And here I must make so apology to the house. The resolution was at first framed st.deirently, and, uit stood, there would have been a diffieuity in imposing an effective limit. It is often difficult fur the most skilled per sons to draw resolutions so as to coafurm to the rules of the house end to fulfi, the precise conditions required ; and I must admit th it, in drawing out Ode resolution, it took a (ow which I did not at once perceive would make it apply to the whole extent Of this 3 per cent. stock, and taus entail a difficulty. lat once admit that that was not meant. (Hear, hear.) Anal I propose to meet the objection by an alteration which has been introduced into the reprint of the resoluti ans. It is in the 10th resolution ' and the amount of Three per Cents. to be thus converted is limited by the alteration to 30 millions. This limits the utmost possible creation of thi, new Two-and-a-Half per Cont. stock to the extent of 30 mil:ions. The Ezehequer Bonds are likewise limited to that amount ; and I propose, in order to meet the objection that has been raised, to limit this new Two-sad-a-Half per Cent. stock to the same amount. Mr. J. L. RICARDC—How is it to be apportioned ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Amongst the applicants, do you mean ? Mr. RlCAltDO—y,e, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—By prio- rity of application. That is all done in the books of the Bank. As soon as there are entries in the books of the Bank to the extent of 30 millions, of parties wishing to maks the conversion, it will be done. The operation will be u simple as possible ; it will be determined entirely by priority. Therefore, the effect will be that the utmost Avelinol addition that can take place to the national debt, under the power which I a k yen time to cooler, will be an addition of something more than three millions. And what I pet to the committee is, that a nominal addition of capital like this, connected with a re:taunt advantage in the reduction of interest, is a very entail price indeed to pay for the attainment of the great object which the government have in •i . ...w—namely, the laying the foundation of an irredeemable and permanent per cent. stock. (Hear, hear.) I know of no other way in which we can certainly attain that end. If we could c.rtainly attain it by means of the Exchequer Bonds, I should prefer it ; but seeing that we cannot attain it in that way, I venture to hope that this proposal will have not only the candid but the favourable consideration of the house. (Hear, I have, at a length very much greater then I myself anticipated, gone through the details of this propuition. I have endeavoured to keep close to the sub• Ai. (Cheers.) I know that, upon questions of this kind to attempt to belonci.e might wily have led me into ob scurity, and have undo any attempted explanation unin telligible. But I have now come to the end of these explanation., and all that I have farther to say may be comprised in a very few sentences. With regard to the discretion which I ask you to confide to the government that discretion may he limited at any stage in the program of the bill which is to be founded upon these resolutions. It would be objection able to introduce new powers to the government in the curse of that bill ; but the limitation of thou powers may be considered at any stage. There is likewise a subject w%.ch, although isolated, I may u well refer to here. It ism' of great importance ;—the large stocks now held by the amountanti-general in Chancery, and in bankruptcy. I do ant propose by thew resolutions that the accountants- Mimi in Chancery ard in bankruptcy shall have the power to exercise the option of commutation, except as to the limited amount of minor stock which they may hold ; but as to the greater stock., it is not proposed that they ghould have that power. And the main reason is this. It is wi'h great reason supposed—l wiz not say it is an ab solute eonelu.itin of the government—that more extensive changes may be introduced into the law with motet to these very large amount of money. (Hear, bean) The system appears to be at present of a rittut defective gilifiet.r. No doubt, as regards the red faith under which this large property is held, that is leaseaulahle, and eeeee can be rendered more certsin. hr ir.) But it is, in its nature, a fluctuating capital. Tie interest, in the case of funds in Chancery, is compare tttely immaterial ; what is important is the integrity of the capital, and the power to rcali.e at any raiment. (Hear, low) It is extremely hard that the property of patties, " 4 ion hatred by legal difficulties from its enjoyment, should be subject to change., and great and vital chueges, V...4:71 (men eiseuenstances entirely inwl.,ndent of their hal— rue Irtprs that it may be in the power of .' rtm‘t.t— I Ca .not ven•urc t. commit it CM tLtt i subject—to propose a measure which shall piece these trust . Innis on a bans more satisfactory to the partire interested therein. On that account Ido not propose that the power of commutation of the greater stocks shall extend to the accountants-general in Chancery and in bankruptcy. I hove now only just to mention to the coin- Mitt! C for their convenience what are the alter ations which have be, n introduced into these rem,. Intiens. An hon. gentleman asked me what the amount of saving would b (Hear, hear.) lam sorry to say that I cannot condescend upon the precise amount. (Laughter.) I don't know what the precise amount will be. If our proposal succeeds, the amount of saving will he very considerable. It cannot be but there must be s•iate amount of saving. I would rather not make a calculation, seeing that it depends not on eircum• tutees under uur con trol, but on those which are hey ind our reach. (ILar, hear) If we get out the 30 millions of Exchequer Bonds at 2i per cent., the caving upon them, as compared with the commuted stock, will be, fur the first ten yeare,l7s,ooo/., and after the first ten years. 1.10,000! a year. That will he upou the whole amount of :3) millions. But I do by no means absolutely limit my expectation to that. What I wish t secure is the framework of the system ; so that we should come back and render an account of the success of this operation, when it will he in your power to ray whether it shall be extended or uot. (Hair, hear.) As to the changes in the resolutious, I will nut venture to say that they are of a trifling character. The third reseention, as it stands here, is a nee resolution. But the object of that is not to make any sale steatite change ; it is ou:y to make sure that the resolu tion shall convey to the government the powers which I have endeavoured to explain, and with regard to which a doubt tad been raised whether the language of the second reeolution, standing alone, was sufficient to convey those powers. The eighth again is a new resolution, but that is merely a formal resolution. The most important change in the resolutions is that on which the right hon. gentle man, with great rapidity, fixed his eve. It is continued in the tenth resolution, uud its eU•ct is simply this. It limits the commutation which may he made out of the consoli dated 3 per cent. annuities and the reduced 3 per cent. annuities—that ie. Alt of the greater stocks—into the new '2; per cent. stuck, to the sum of 30 million, as a maximum. (Hear, hear.) It leave, it entirely free to the holders to go intuthe 3) per cent. steckii , ideas they choose. As far as the government is concerned, they would not ohject to any limitation on this stork also; but they do not think there is any danger attend lag leaving it open. The only 12ar we have is about the 2) per cent. stock. We. therefore, propose to fix this, which we think will he an a Motive limit upon the 21 per cent. stock to be crc ikeel uuder these resolutions. That is the only change affecting the general description of the plan which has been made in what 1 may call the second ei.ition of the resolutions. There is no other change of an important character. The committee will now be in a ' condition to judge whether that change is of a character that would make it desirable for then: to take further time for consideration, or whether they will cheese to proceed at the present moment. I have now discharged, as well is I could, the duty that was incumbent upon me. I have only r to thank the committee for the great patience with which , they have listened to me—(cheers)—and to say that I shall be most happy, if on any point I have failed to convey an accurate description of the intentions of the government, to i supply it in answer to any gentleman who may ask for fur• they information. (Cheers.) The CHAIRMAN then read the first reaolutiofi. Mr. HUME, on the whole, thought the scheme laid before the house was likely to open a door to ezteusive geod—it was taking a step in the right way. It would he an im mense convenience to the public, and in that light it would be more valuable than even the saving of money. ne would only make one further observation, namely, that as the right hon. g ntlensan by this scheme would diminish the incomes of a great number of people, he lived he woald now turn his attention to a diminution of ‘ tnzation. (Hear, hear.) The interest of the exchequer ought not alone to be considered; they should likewise pay regard to the re ' Wive price of articles of consumption. The 18:h was ap proaching, and be hoped he could congratulate the right hon. gentleman on his budget as he did on the present occasion WILLIAMS said that as the right hon. gentle man was only adding to the debt to a small amount he would not offer any ohketion, but if it were not for the alteration made in the resolution that day he would offer the propose tion every opposition. (Hear, beer.) Mr. HENLEY urged various reasons for nut passing the resolutions at once, and as no public inconvenience mild arise from a few hour.. delay, he hoped the right bon. gentleman would not press them to-night. (Hear.) Mr. E. ELLICE entreated the right hon. gentleman, unless he were met with an hostility which ceuel not be anticipated, to proceed at once witlehis experiment. (Hear, hoar ) Mr. Alterman THOMPSON said he could not acquiesce in the advice which had just been given to the government. (Hear, hear.) fie admitted that the subject was one of immense magnitude; during the whole period that he had sat in that house, upwards of 30 years, he had never before beard frum a minis - er of the crown so bold a proposition with regard to the national debt. (Hear.) He was quite =prepared to enter that evening at any great length into the important question under consideration ; and ne eve tianly thought the consideration of it should be paetponed, at least, until the following Monday. (Hear, hear.) Mr. J. B. 8111TH said that a little time was certain', necessary to consider it, and in the meantime he would ask the Chancellot of the Exchequer whether the time had not arrived fir making some more extensive attempt at re daring the capital of the national debt? (Hear, hear.) That was a subject worthy the consideretion of a Chancellor of the Exchequer, and therefore he in vited the right honuureble gentleman to reflect whither he might not some day forms a committee to in quire into the practicability of the project. At all events he trusty d that the present motion would not be pressed until the house had a fuller opportunity of considering the de tails. Sir F. KELLY believed that the committee could not with any propriety proceed to a division ou the question that evening. (11.4 e, hear.) These resolutions proposed to deal with a portion of the national debt not less than tO millions, and pea ibly with an amount of that debt not less emu 500 millions. And even since they had come into the house, an important change bad been made in the rent lutiona. Now this chonge must be considered with refe rence not only to its effect on the resolution it,elf, but also with reference to its operation on the permanent interests of the country, and further as to its effect on the option profes,ed to be given to the funciholder. Ile would then see in what way the option given to the fund• holder would be affected by this resolution, and he must say that unless he laboured under a misapprehension with reference to the language in which that resolution was framed, the option given of taking this Three-and-a-Half per Cent stock, or of accepting the Exchequer Bonds, was neither more nor less than a mere delusion. The question, then, was, whether the purchaser would be better con tent to invest his 1001. in consols as they now existed, or would be disposed to accept the Two-and-u-Half per Cent. stock which formed the second proposal in the resolution. Where was the man, in his senses, who would hesitate be tween investing 1001. to receive 15s. for forty years, and then becoming cred,itor to the government for 1101., and ac cepting either the 3j stock or the Exchequer bond ? If any thing could render th is question moreimportant, he might say more alarming, it was that by these resolutions the go vernment were making the house to adopt, without COUSHIIIIII. Lion, a plan which they themselves admitted to be an entirely new operation, unexampled in its effects and its novelty. and—be must beg to submit also to the consideration of Ifs government—an operation which, if ever there was a time la which they must proceed to the consideration of financial measures with caution, was one requiring the utmost deli beration at the present moment. The present was a time in which the finances of the country were in a state of tran sition, arising from the eats aordinern influx of gold, and therefore he thought it wee the last period in our history when the government should tie up their heads for a period of 40 years in the arrangement of the national =ea= Mr. J. WILSON said there were but one or two paints in the hon. and learned gentleman's speech which required observation. The hon. and learned member had commenced his observations by fallowing the example of a right he. member en that, the ministerial side, in illustrating his opt nioa by an arithmetical problem. He (Mr. Wilson) pro posed to follow the same course. The bon. and learned gentleman said—and arithmetically he would appear Oe be perfectly correct—that if a man wanted to invest 1001. ea government security, he could not conceive how that man would accept an Exchequer bond bearing interest at 21. 16e. per cent., iu preference to the 1101. stock, seeing that the security was the same in both cases. He thought he could show the hon. and learned gentleman the fallacy that lurked in this view apparently so arithmetically and ma thematically correct. Die hon. and learned gentleman should remember that within the last mouth, with Consuls at par e government issued securities no better than the Three per Cents., and yet there were numbers of people found to accept them at the rate of lj per cent. The lion. and 1 d member had completely overlooked the most important feature in the question—namely, the character of the security which was issued. (Hear.) Was it the same thing to have a security never redeemable except at the option of government, and tied up by a great number of restrictions with regard to its negotiable character, as to have a security that might go hum hand to hand, and which was similar in character to an Exchequer Bill? Such a security had, he submitted an extraneous value far above that of one which was haal round with various restrictions in its passage from hen Ile hand. The hon. amid learned gentleman had therefore overlooked what hail e-coped no other speaker—an advs.- tags which was appreciated in proportieu to the extent in which persons understood the subject. The hon. and learned gentleman gad or, rireilse rl the convenience which these bends would be to bankers, assurance offices, or other patties belting tenteerery investments to make, and whose only present means of making such investments was an Exchetiner Bill. The The honourable and learn. d gentleen in had in the one case to which he h .d (hewn attention—that of the Exchequer Bond--made no allowance fur the re , marleetle facilities which tee one class of security to which he had adverted, offered to the iuonied interest in carrying out commercial trausa -'ions, as C rillpAfe4 with permanent seventies, and, in the other, he had fallen into the ordinary mistake of coesiderine the nati o nal debt a, so much money • owing, to be repaid on 'I to ii,d, whereas it was eimely a claim fur a certain MIMIC:), a e 1 at the end of tee 40 years it was an more a po..itiee b. of I'ol. than it wes now. Sir F. KELLY-1. e :ewe lie paid of or les.. Mr. WILSON—N I doubt it could nut be paid off for lees— (•ippusitiun eh .ers)— but they would never be hound to pay it off or to pay more than 21 15s. per annum for each present 100 1 . (Hear, hear.) An oloserverien had been made by another h •o. gmit'eman a. to the ehjectieu to incr.:mine the capital of the el.bt In that üb,erv,.tiun ho (Mr. Wilson) entirely concurred. (Hoar, hear.) He thought there was nothing , to be more lamented—that nothing placed the management of the public debt and of the tinauces of the country in a worse light than the improvident mode in which a great part of that debt was contracted in the course ofd the last century. In point of principle therefore he entirely concurred in the observation as to the undesirableneta of increasing the nominal amount of the capital of the debt; hut he must call the attention of the hon. gentleman to this point. The whole amount with which it was proposed ° to de 4 in this way was 31,000.0091., therefore the highest : nominal amount oy the increase would be but 3,000,0001. Mr. Alderman THOMPSON—No; 4,000,00dt. The amount of stock converted is 40,000,0001. Mr. J. WlLSON—Taking it far granted that the whole of the South Sea Stock wan taken up in these bonds it would certainly he 40,000,0001., hut that would not be the case. Now, the holders of this stock, instead of receiving 3 per cent. an at present, would in future receive only 21. Lis — t hat was a quarter per cent. p'r annum saved to the country on the whole 30,000,0001.—a saying equal , at once to 75,0001. a year. If that was funded—it 'flawed of taking advantage of the annual eavinz, thi y funded the amount for the wl ole period, this 75,000 a year would be exactly equivalent to the notoinal addition which at the end of the 40 years would he made to the capital—via., three million—and that without taking interest upon the amount so feuded into ace iuut at all. And if they took credit for comp moil intertat, which they had a right to do, they would have a further sum fir benefit of posterity of between 300,0002. and 401,000!. ; eo that taking it ac cording to the view of the hon. and learned gentleman, that the repayment of the nominal capital might be de ; mandril, they would be that amount the better by the ' transaction. Thu item Hid, however, could not be made ; the liability bring confined to the annuity of 21. 15s. for each present luOl, of stock, and he had put forward this calculation merely Sy way of illu-:ration. He thought he had sufficiently answered the ohjoctions to which he had nildremed himself, •asd he would not pursue the subject further on the present occasion, considering, after the full explanation of his right lion. friend, it was unnecessary tot him to do so. Mr. SPOONER, after all tho explanalions which had been given, regarded the proposition as the most unintelli gible that had ever been brought forward. Mr. 2d•GREGUR (Glas;ow) urged upon the !mule to consent to the resolution., in order to put an end in any sus pense or doubt in the country on the aubject, being con vinced t.oit all clAsses of the c,•mmunity would regard them with satisfaction. Mr. WILKINSON thnught some further delay was necessary before they were called upon to give their assent to the scheme. Mr. S. LAING hoped the right hon. gentleman the C:.ancellor of the Exchequer would not accede to the invi tation for delay, as he relieved the proposition now before them was very generally understood. The question had been fully and anxiously discussed during the last three days in the City, and he believed the amendment made this evening for limiting the amount of stock to be con verted, would remove any serious objection that might be entertained to the proposal. There could be no doubt that amotipt men of business in the City, who viewed these mantis in a clear and practical light, the proposal of the government met with universal approbation. Mr. DISRAELI in a low tone of voice made an appeal to the government to postpone proceeding further with the resolution till a future day. Lord JOHN RUSSELL did not think it would be con venient to the public service not to go on this evening, for it was of great importance when a question of this kind was proposed in committee that they should so far decide upon the resolutions as to say whether or not they would permit a bill to be brought in according with the terms of the resolutions. (Hear, hear.) Mi. DISRAELI was not aware that the question had been so amply debated by his friends around him, but at all events he had no wish to enter into any length ened discussion upon this subject. lie confessed he had thought better, indeed he had been under the im pression that an understanding had been come to between the Chancellor of the Exchequer and himself that no dis cussion should take place to-night. That, lie thought, bad been the feeling of the house; and considering that it was only at the last moment that they were informed of an im portant alteration which had heen made in one of the reso lutions, he thought they were entitled to expect some delay. As to the insinuation that some of his hon. friends had laid themselves open to the charge of having approached the question with a bitterness of feeling, lie at least had failed to observe such a display, if any indeed had taken place. but it was now to be understood that all they were re quired to do was simply to give the Chancellor of the Ex chequer leave to bring in a bill, of course that understand ing would remove much of the objection which they enter tained to coming to a decision to-night. (Hear, hear.) ' But if, on the other hand, the object of the government was to have it go forth to the country that the House of Commons had solemnly assented to the proposition, why then he should certainly feel it to be his duty to take a division for the purpose of showing the small numbers of members present at the moment. (Hear, hear.) They had been told by a right hon. gentleman that it was the business of the House of Commons always to facilitate the hudness of the govern ment; but, although he was generally disposed to comply , with that proposition, he must beg to remind hon. mem bers that if they pushed it to the fullest limits, they would often lose opportunities of discussing suhjccts of great im portance, such as this—a subject on which, according to the hon. and learned member who last addressed the house, there wan not the slightest mistake among men of business; a subject which, according to the hon. and learned gentleman, men of business could not have two opinions about. The men us fact who lived absolutely amongst figures could gee no injury in a proposal like this, even though it added largely to the permanent debt of the country, while the Secretary to the Treasury had just shown them, by an ingenious ar gument, that there would not by these res diatoms be any increase to the permanent debt, but, on the contrary, rather a diminution of it. If the resolutions hod remained as they were originally framed, when there waste much alarm excited amongst the men of business at the prospect of adding 50,000,0001. to the permanent debt of the country, there would, according to the Secretary to the Treasury, be • diminution instead of an increase of the debt. (A laugh.) The mat of business said his object was to increase the dept, while the Secretary of the Treasury was anxious to diininieh it; and it appeared to him that there was so much discrepancy between the two—the man of business and the official—that he found some difficulty in meeting them. The proposal was objected to amongst men of business, ac cording to the hou. and learned gentleman who last all. diessedehem,:because it would increase the permanent debt, but the Secretary to the Treasury now declared that neither the original resolutions nor the mitigated form of them would add to the permanent burden of the country. Well, now, he wished to remind the committee what the proposi tions were in their original shape, by which it appeared that there might possibly have be en: added 50.000,0001. to the national debt, butt that was a mistake of the men of business, for, instead of increase, there would have been a diminution. That was a coasulatiou for the men of busi ness who were going to vote for these resolutions. (A laugh.) He should abstain from entering into any lengthened discussion of the details of this plan, because there world be another opportunity for his doing that; but before they separated be wished to arrive, if possible, at soma clear conception of what they were hereafter to debate. (Hear.) There had already Leen a considerable change in the pro position before them. They however bad had the proposition described to them by an eminent member of the house, namely, the member for Coventry, as a most important measure. The right hon. gentleman in fact said it was the most gqantie financial proposition that was ever brought forward • but in another part of the right hon. gentleman's speech this colossal proposition figured as a 11011 tao-and-a half per cent. stock. That was the great result, although there had been a general impression in town, if not in the country, that the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer was going to pay off the national debt. (A laugh.) Well, the change in the resolutions, and the discussion to-night, had thrown sem light upon the proposition : but, nevertheless, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer really had brought for ward a proposition to pay off the national debt it could not have been described in langusge more glowing than that used by dot hon. member for Coventry. (Hear, hear.) But he thought tonight they ought to have a clear conception of what the government proposed to do, and upon what part of it the government mainly rely. Well, then, he had a note before him made upon the first propositi in. He mentioned the first because the calculations he had made were based epos the first resolution ; but the plan had been described as a great financial pro pond, which must be viewed in its completeness. Now, omitting that part of the first resolution which related to the interest of the South Sea Annuities, he wanted to know what would be its possible effect upon 500,000,0001. of Con sols. The first proposition proposed t 3 alter the 1001. Three per Cent. stock into 821. 10s. New Three-and-a-Half per Cent. stock, with a guaranteed rate of into- rest up to 1894. He was not going to contrast the comparative advantages of the three resolutions, or to enter into any argument to prove that they were not of co-relative value, as be thought that point had been ably disposed of by his bon. and learned friend the member for Suffolk ; he was only going now to show to the committee what the effect of the original proposition would be, taken as a whole. Now, what was the debtor an I creditor ac count of this ant financial proposition, viewed in its' possible completeness, because that was the only way to tot it. What would he its effect upon the 500.000,00 0 . of Consols if carried out to its fullest effect ? If the whole 500,000,0001. were converted, as the resolution proposed, the result would be as follows : At present the fundholder received 15,000,0001. a year, and if this conversion took place they would receive 14,435,.5001.; the country would, therefore, gain .5645001. So that if the first proposition of the government were caned into effect in its r .m -pleteness, and applied to the whole 500,000,0001. Consols, there would be, according to the first proposition, a profit somewhat exceeding 540,0001. The second proposition, ho need hardly remind the com mittee, proposed to alter the 1001. stuck of 3 per cent. into 1101. 21 per cent., with the same rate of interest guaran teed f •r the period specified in the first resolution. Now, let him see what would be the effect of this proposition upon the d 90,000,0001. of Consols converted according to the second proposition of the government. The landholder was now in receipt of 15,000.000/. per annum; but, if this conversion according to the second resolution took pla?r, lie would receive only 13,750,0901.; and the (tract, then fore, of carrying out th • first p opo-ition would he, to produce a Keil% not of 56 eOOOl., but of 1450.0001. So that, accord ing to the second proposition, the country would gain 1,250,00 0 1. a par, but it would still he sad dled with the additional debt of 50 ,000,0091. Now, let him see what would be the effect in the diminution of burdens, from carrying out the third ProPositi ' ll in all its completeness. According to the third proposition, the present Lod der of 101. stack wool 1 ne i.... a 1001. Elebequer bond, carrying interest at the rate of 21. 15s. per cent. per annum up to 1801, and 2!. 10s. up to 1891 By this proposal the country would gain 1,250,000!. until 1804, and two and a half 'editions from thence un to 1894, but then the country would be bound to pay in 1801 the whole of the 500.000,0401. of consols. Now, these were the three propositions, sad the effect they would each pro dbuutee if they as werete aspect which edo the question out t th eh titin !e o teheet haet assumed by the changes announced tonight? (Hear.) They might he very laudable resolutions, and more safe in their being earri into operation than the original Ot184; but after the admissions which had been made, tho altera tions which had been introduced, sad the explanations which bad been given, did this question any longer possess the features of moguitude and interest which it possessed when they awoke that morning ? Let them look at the different character which the proposition. had now assumed. The lira. relate d to E xc h equer B on d., an d t h ey were hunted in amount ; they were limited to thirty milli ins in the ori,cnal resolutions. But the right h to. gentleman, in his atetement, very candidly iaf,rmed the house that, although be hail limited himself to 30 millions as the amount, be should uit hesitate to come to parliament for fresh and fresh powers to enable him to deal with that amount if the scheme proved successful. B u t hail the discussion which had taken place and the sp e e c h es th a t h a l b een ma d e sup ported that idea and sanctioned the sanguine expectations which lie nppeared to entertain ? On the contrary, allthat had been said with regard to the Exchequer Bonds on both sides of the house, and whether the !deposition of the go vernment was looked upon with suspicion or with favour, shoe eil that Exchequer Bonds might be an efficient and a valuable instrument of finance, but that it was an instiu• Lunt which must be limited in its use ; and yet it was by Exchequer Betels that it was proposed sensibly to reduce the national debt. Ile now came to the second proposition, that which had so astonished and alarmed the country, and eve.. the ban. gentleman (Mr. Laing) who had addressed the house with so much ability. It was nut intended to act upon 500,009,000/. be the second proposition, fur the Chancellor of the Exchequer had altered the proposition, and ho was now bound to a maximum. Ile wished to impress on the house that by the second proposi tion, which, according to the hon. gentleman (51r. Laing), was to have increased the debt, and according to the hon. gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury was to have re duced it, there was no great chance of dealing effictually with the public burdens, nor was it such as to authorise the magnificent expression of the right hon, gentleman the member for Coventry. Neither the Exchequer Bondi nor the new Two-and-a-llaif per Cent. fund, which were both limited to thirty million's, would pro duce such effects as were apparent to the glowing lam ginetieu of the right hon. gentleman the member for Co ventry, and which prompted hint to pronounce the opinion that these propositions were the most important which were ever made. Neither by the second nor the Bird pro position would you be able to deal largely with the public debt. He then come to the first preposition, which was to exercise such a magical influence on the public burdens, and to justify the description which had been bestowed on it by the right hon. gentleman the member for Coventry. Now, unfortunately the first proposition was the one which everybody decried. It was the only one not limited in its operation, and yet it was the very one which all were agreed iu saying would not produce any eff,ct on the public fortunes. He (Mr. Disraeli) thought that as far as they had gone (aim that perhaps was the reason which caused the noble lord to he so desirous of proceeding at once) it was clear that the country would understand that this was not such a very important subject. What then were they going to do? What was ad this bather about 2 (liear and a laugh.) What was the meaning of this special financial announcement only a week before the bringing forward of the budget ? Certain important resolutions were announced heralded by rumours which were of such a nature that the funds rose, although it was now said that was a mistake. (Hear, hear, and a laugh) Then the resolutions were changed, and that to such a degree that it seemed impossible, by carrying them, to deal with the object which they were intended to gain, or to have any practical effect on the finance of the country. The object of the right hoe. gentlemen, in this unexampled feat of a Chancellor of the Exchequer, was to create a new two-and-admif per cent. fund. That was the great object. Every age had its objects, and this being a fluancial age, at all coats and at all hazards there must he created a two and-a-half per cent. fund. (" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) But the most curious part of the whole was, that two separate propositions were made for the creation of • Three-and-a- Half per Cent. and a Two-aud.a-Half per Cent. fund, and on the first night of the discussion it was said we will have nothing to do with the Cleo-and-a-Hall - per Cent. fund, which is limited to thirty millions ; but we will concentrate our energies in the Three-and-a-Half per Cent. fund. If the first ob ject was a new Two-and a-Hal f per Cent. fund, why was the greatest part of the scheme devoted to the Thrt c•and a-Half per Cent. fund ? Thu magical amount which had been enlarged as being of so much importance was the Three-and-a-Half per Cent. fund ; and, if the pubic debt was to be operated on powerfully, it was to be by the 'ffiree-and-a Half per Cent. Fund, and not by the Two and a-Half per C. nt., although they were told that by the creation of a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. fund only, sacrifice was to be Midi. ; and that that feat alone wee sufficient to render a financial minister celebrated. (Hear, tear.) If the object was the creation of is Two-and a-Half per Cent. fund it might have been created by much simpler means. The issue of ten millions of Exchequer Bills would have created a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. fund, and the right honourable gentleman might have accustomed the country to the receipt of 21 per cent., and that might have been done without exciting the idea that the public burdens were to be decreased, and that a sew machinery was invented by which the whole of the pubic debt would be removed. You were to have a Twee and-a-Half per Cent. fund, but it was to be gained by increasing the public debt, to the amount of four millions. It would have been cheaper to have funded Exchequer Bills for that purpose. But it was not financial relief that was wanted either by the right honourable gentleman or the country, but what was really wanted was that there might be greeted a kind of normal stock which was only to pay two and a half per cent. (Hear, hear.) That seemed to be the object which the government now had in the resolutions proposed, and it was not impossible that it might be obtained. He (Mr. Disraeli) thought it was of importance, that although these resolutions might pass without a diviaiiin on the understand ing, as stated by the mild.. lord, that they were only in tended as a basis on which the Minister of Finance should found a bill; it was, lie said, important that the country, after all the excitement which had been caused, should have a clear idea of the question. He did not say that the proposition. would not be recognised as safe, but they did not profess much, and it was probable they would perform less. (Hear, hear.) Bat it was only fair that the couutry should think that the public debt was about to be extremely reduced, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his colleagues were only desirous of having a twe-and-a-half per cent. stock. That was the object of the resolutions; and there seemed to be es complicated machinery for the attainment of so slight a result, as ever was devised by the most skilful plagiarist. (Hear, hear.) In "Thomas Aquinas" there was a chapter which was devoted to a dissertation as to how many angels could dance upon the point of a needle, and he could not but recognise in these resolutions something akin to that important matter. He should be happy if on future discussions more unanimity was attained with regard to the reeolutions, but as it was Friday night be should be sorry that her Majesty's subjects should go to their slumbers be lieving that the National Debt was going to be paid off. (" Hear, hear," and laughter.) Captain LAFFAN contrasted the position of two per sons who were possessed of 1001. in the funds. One of these, A, as proposed by the resnlution, would receive an annuity of 21. 17a. 9d. for forty years, and would then be paid 82t. 10s.; while the other, B, would receive an annuity of 21. 155., and would be liable to be paid off at 1101., and contended that that was an inequality which was not just. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the hon. gentleman overlooked the fundamental idea of the national debt, and which had been also overlooked by his hon. and learned friend the member for Suffolk, and treated it as a national debt which the public creditor could recover. It was no such thing ; there was so agreement to pay the national creditor a capital sum, but only to pay him a perpetual annuity, which was redeemable at certain times on the payment of certain sums. That was very dif ferent to there being an obligation to pay him off. He maintained that in the case put by the hon. gentleman, B would not receive 11101., anima it was to the interest of the State to give it him ; nor did it depend on B, or on the amount of his stock, but on what was for the interest of the State. • Captain LAFFAN believed that the value or security of the funds depended on the amount which they were liable to pay off, and in proportion to that was the value at which they were rated. Mr. MALINS protested against the doctrine laid down by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the nation was not liable fur a particular aunt. It was true that there was no real legal liability to psy anything but an annuity of 30 millions, but that could only be got rid of by the payment of 800 millions, and that was to be looked at as the amount of ; and he could not agree in the abstract proposi tion of the Chancellor of the Ezesequer that the nation was not liable to pay a capital suns of money, but only as an• amity. . . . The first resolution was then agreed to. On the second being read, Mr. DISRAELI reminded the committee that this, by the admissions of Ministers, was the important resolution ; and when it came to be viewed, in the form which it would subsequently take, it would be a grave question to consider whether for a gain of 530,000/. it would be worth the while of the country to guarantee A 21 per cent. for forty years— that being a rate of interest higher, he believed, than what would prevail. (Hear, hear.) The second and the other resolutions were then read seriatim, and agreed to. Upon one of the resolutions a convervation took plaice between Mr. A. WILKINSON and the CIIANCLLLuIt Of the EICREQUEU respecting South Sea Stock; but the expla nation was unimportant. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave notice that on Mondry he would more the necessary resolutions of form, which would be the notice to the parties. The house thiit resumed. The forms! motion was put and carried that the house at its risin2 should adjourn to Mouthy. SUPPLY.— CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES. On the motion that the house should go iut committee of supply on the Civil S.:7%km F...timat, Mr. W. WILLIAMS express 'I an earnest hop, though ha had no objection, of course, to the motion to go auto committee being taken advantage of by bon. members who had notices on the rlp:r to the purnok of d scu.sion, that the goverue.rnt would not as'.: for any rota to-night ; and h r gru laded this rolaest on the fact that the estimatvs had only been delivered the preceding of ernoon, and that members had consequently had no time to bestow proper examination on the items. Mr. EWART said that a notice stood in his (Mr. Ewart's) name, "to call attention to the expediency of instituting examination of candidates for the diplomatic service." Re would not detain the house by:going over the whole ground, but would simply ask what prospect there now was of a system of examination being adopted, and whether the government would In the papers on the table ? Lord J. RUSSELL could nut say that, during the short time he had held the seals of the Foreign Oilier, he had paid attention to the subject; but he had heard from Lord Clarendon (ca we understood) that all the papers were now completed, and that noble lord would probably take some steps upon them. Lord STANLEY bad no hesitation in saying, that attar). continued to make the diplomatic service a profession, then, iu order to guasd ast.,inst abuses, it uss essentially nectseiry to establish some test, so that these oho were incapable of &dug good service to the retinue should be unable to eater on diplomacy as a profi snot.. (near.) Lord PALIMERS TON —A.s reAards th question of my hon. and le irned friend (Mr. Ewan), I hove to state that when I hell the seals of the Foreign-othee, I took steps with the vie re of tusti.uting an examination of persons entering the diplomatic service, and my notion on this sub j-et was much the same as that of the stable lord who has just addressed the house. I proposed to institute a moderate examination for the person appointed an unpaid attocU, and a more complete and stringent examination for the party seeking the office of a Raid attach 4. I entered into a communica tion on the subject wits the no:ix lord (Lord J. Russell), and had already taken considerable steps in the arrange. ment. I cannot, however, after what has fdleit from the noble lord opposite (Lard Stanley), eantine myself to this brief statement, fur I feel bound t t say I do not concur in the opiuions expressed by the noble lord. Ile smuri to think it bettor that we should chance the existing system, and that we should no banger consider diplo:tatists as • professional body. In support of this view the noble lord quotes the example of the tinited States. but the bowie will recoilect how different is the condi•ion of the United States as regards Eur mean affairs with the condition of this country. (Rear, hear.) Except us regards this country and France, the United States have hardly any interest in what is passing throughout Europe. Let us look, however, to the ex imple of those countries which possess the greatest influence in }..uropran affaire. Let us see what is done by France, what is done by Russia and by Austria. (Hear, hear.) They feel it to be an advant age to employ persons in this trade—or pro fession, or whatever you like to call it—they feel it expedient, I sty—when they employ pecans to do a thing, to employ those who understand how it ought t ho done. (Laughter.) Well, gentlemen to whom, doubt less, it would be very agreeable to pass a few years in a foreign court, say—" Throw open the diplomatic service ;" but the noble lord (Stanley) admits that the lower posts should be tilled by those very men whom he wishes to abolish, and that tile principal, totally ignorant of his duty, should be supported by the subardirateetiieer who knew it. (Laughter.) Now, let the house just fancy the ease of an ignorant superior being called to a conference with the roi , eider of that country for which he was accreditel,and when some difficult point was mooted, suppose It should say, " I am only here to do the ornamental part—(laughter)—hut have a secretary, who does the real work at ray °thee at home; and I must really send for him before I solve the question you are greed enough to propose." (Loud laugh ter.) I should say, it is the fashion of many men to speak disparagingly of the diplomatic body. I have had seine experience of that body—(hear, hear)—and I say with all siuevrity that no government in Europe is better onved or so well informed—l will not sty setter informed, but so wall informed—lay the shields she employs than England is. (Rear, hear.) We had correct information of all that was going on when the sgeuts of other countries were M error or were deceived sato what had really taken place. The rule, however, fished the unbending rule winch the house might expect from the statement of the noble lord. In all the'suboidinate racks promotion took place in the body. The unpaid attache, and he might be so for five or six years, became a paid attaché, then a secretary of legation un an embassy, but there was no rule that missions should be filled from the next rank belo.v them. Thsre were twa or three mutes which I can refer to. These is the noble lord, now Secretary for Foreign Affairs (I.srd Clarendon), who went to Spain as ambassador though he bad not gone through the infe rior ranks; there is Sir 11. Bulwer, who had gone nonii nail), through the inferi tr ranks ; and there is Mr. Wye° at Athens, who has not gone through the interior ranks ; so that in point of fact the country is not deprived of the ser vices of these who have cot gone through a diplomatist career, and yet are qualified by their general knowledge and attainments to till a high wsition in our d plomutic service. But to fill those pasts we select men, sometimes members of bath houses, who are acquainted with the events which have taken place abroad, who aro conversant with pablic law, and with the political events of their own country. We have, in tact, • mixt d system. We have thq advantage of having men iu the in ferior ranks who have acquired a knowledge of diplomacy, and when a vacancy occurs it is filled by that person who has evinced the most capacity, or it is filled from the racks of those public men who from their capacity and acquire ments are best calculated to take share iu the diplomatic service of their country. Mr. DISHABLI said that the noble lord had in the last part of his speech cempletely answered the first par!. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord assumed that every person who was not trained to diplomacy would be ignorant and inefficient, for that was the whole foundation in kis speech ; and then he ended by proving that persons selected from ether positions—members of both houses ut the legislature —as the noble lord said, were with advantage to the ctuntre called upon to lid the higher positions. Now * their own experience contradicted the firs: Vill clu.ion at which the nuble lord opposite had arrived. It was his (Mr. Disraeli'e) opinion that sooner or later they would have to introduce into their diplomatic service a thorough reform on the principles laid down by his noble friend, and by that reset= render the cavica more efficient and economical (Hear, hear.) Atter a few words in explanation front Mr. ENVAIir, Mr. BOWYER. said that although it could nut be denied that there were instances of distiuguished men having filled high diplomatic posts who had not passed through a diplomatic traiaing, yet he could not see why a complete system of education could nut he adopted for that Without a knowledge of the civil law, it is impossible to attain a competent knowlede of the international law ; and those who were in training far the diplomatic service should therefore be instructed in the civil law. After • few words from Mr. J. PHILLIMORE and Mr, R. PHILIAMORZ, the subject dropped. MIL JUSTICE PERRIN AND THE SIX..MILE BRIDGE AFFRAY. Lord A. VANE then brought forward his motion— That the exposition of the law set forth by Mr. Justice Perrin, in his charge to the grand jury of the county of Clare, on the 22nd day of February, 18°3, with referenee to the duty of soldiers employed for the suppression of riots, or on emergencies, is at variance with the opinions of former judges, opposed to the rules up to the present time laid down for the instruction of military and civil fure,s, and antagonistic to the principles and orders of the Mut;ny Act and Queen's regulations. That it is the opinion of this house that the conduct of the soldiers employed at Siwmile Bridge was thoroughly justifiable, and necessitated by the position they were placed in. Ile considered that they were bound to put the military when called out to keep the peace in the same position that they put the police. Any one, rich or poor, who interfered with the police in the execution of their duty, was punished severely, and he conceived that soldiers wore en titled to the same protection. In this case, however, they had put the soldiers on their trial, while the instigators of the riot (the priest.) escaped without their conduct being impugned. Be conceived Mr. Justice Perrin's charge to be a mast preposterous one. Tile Attorney-General for England told him that gentlemen of his profession received the law from the judges. Ile was glad Li find, however, that teem were others of his profession who disowned the preposterous doctrine of Judge Perrin. The Attorney-General for Ireland had declared that the soldiers were perfectlyjustified. Thu noble lord concluded by quoting a number of legal authorities, both civil and military, in confirmation of the right hon. gentleman's view of the case. Sir W. VERNER seconded the resolution, which after some discussion was withdraws.. The House went, pro forted, into Committee of Supply ; and, having ri.sunted, adjourned at 10 minutes to 1. Pains.—Mr. Pugh paired with Sir J. Walmlay ell Fri day night. Captain Pakenham for, with Mr. Stirling against, Mr. Muore's motion on the Irish Consolidated An nuities. THE GOVERNMENT FINANCIAL PROJECT. The following arc the three additional Resolutions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer: That the Commissiouers of her Majesty's Treasury be authorised and empowered to tit the number of years during which the interest of 21. 11s. per centum shall be payable on such Ilona, subject to the limitation of the fore• going resolotiou ; awl likewise to determine whethar such bond, after the let of September, 1594, shall be redeem able at their option only, or shall also he redeemable at the option of the holder; and that the said commissioners shell give notice in the London Gazette of what they shall de te mine in these respects as YOULI as may be after the pant ing of any act in pursuance of thee resolutions. That provision shall be made for paying off suchas prietor or proprietors of tiny of the said capital Tr stuck or capital stocks of annuities nwfore mentioned u • not eignity his assent to accept and receive New V. Ids. per Ceutum Anumtiee. or New 21. 10s. per Ceutum Annuities, or Exchequer Donde, in lieu thereof. That hottaii,g herrin marine 1 btuiS extend to authorise the CUllllllUtill .011 of the said Consolidated W. per Ceotum Annuities, or the said Reduced 3/. per Ceutum Annuities, situ the win New 21. Ins. per Cullum Aouuities, alter he amount entered for contioutstian into such New 2/. 10s. per Cent= Aneuai,s iu the said books of the Bank of England, and Dank of Ireland, shall hut reached the sum of Vial) millions; awl that the power of commutation of the said 3r. per Ceutum Stocks shall thereafter he limited to the two other options liereittlselora given : that is to say, and the option of exchange for Eachequer Donde. the owlet' of exchange fur 3 !. Ills per Centom Aufklutfob, HER MAJESTY'S TIIKATRE.—The purchaser of the prop( rti , s of her I'4 qeAty . .. Tit( etre in ono lot, oanurele7, ie Jdr. (Awl. s Lee, of ft,), Ooldea•squar.•. gitt era3rto• TO CO ItRI3SPON 11E N ♦ t4oond VALtioet.f " the kaoreob" cont3.weg tlw roma motors " 6.lette," V putZstu.l every Tee...laq &at Ines, sight, in Uwe tor '..ertoet.te, totendel "The !Apr...," Lon c • P....rips pver e mca b e at (41.,, 1 4 , Bod.wte..troe, Two 4,12 ate, tay of pablizatton. num WATER AT LONLON BRIDGIt. t i o. sr os ?::: 3l )l ,. .a n nLic : :h 4 .. 4 1 7 , 1: , A hni fttr Thou root 3Zak: LuNDON, SATURDAY, APRIL 9. Tee great and difficult subject of cur huge Na tional Debt became last night again the subject of explanation and discussion in the House of Commons. when Mr. GLAD:;TONE brought forward his new Re solutions. One day's publicity hid been enough to induce their author to feel some of his errors, and accordingly last night he issued what he tacetiouslr, but truly, called "a Second lit:ition," in which his Resolutions had swelled from 12 to 15, and were morli fled in a way he explained in his speech—repotted in another column. Mr. GtaesrostE is evidently desirous of meeting fully the difficulties of the task he has in hand. Ile has the will to do the work of the nation, and the only doubt that can arise in re ference to his endeavours must be based on the question whether he sees with sufficient practical clearness the positive conseque-ncee of the steps he desires to take. He has a plan, and, like a p.t:ent, is fond of it because it springs from himself. In that plan he declares for a future addition to our National Debt for the sake of a present financial (spit!. Other people entertain very different feelings on this point. As regards Treasury Bonds, his proposi tion is admirable; but its good is likely to be counterbalanced by the scheme that threat, as additional incumbrances to the seven or tight hundred millions now hanging neon us. Mr. GLADSTONE admits that one branch of his propo,i -' tions will, if carried out, add three minions sterling to our debt; but he thinks this a file price to pay for the attempt to lay the founda tion of a new permanent Twevand-a-Half per Cent. stock. If for u given sum of three millions we could deal with any Power sufficiently great to gua rantee us for that, or any other sum, a reduction of our National Debt, then Mr. (;I..ttisreXE'S position might be well assumed; but when this question of lessening the debt is not a thing to be settled with any such Power for that, or any other, stun,—but a good to be secured by the wise, and bold, and honest operations of a skiiful financier acting in concert with the natural movements of the money market, Mr. GLADSTONE'S attempt to put three extra millions rou:id the neck of Jens BULL, becomes a totally different affair. At present the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHLQUER wishes to act for the benefit of the nation, and one of his sug gcstions is to make the nation add three millions to its liabilities—upon speculation. The good is still to Ibe proved—the payment certain. That some portion of the good will be gained it is not difficult to believe; but we contend that any such good ob tainable is so obtainable solely by virtue of the pie sent condition of the money markets of the world, and not at all in consequence of the three millions &onus which Mr. GLADSTONE wishes to fling to the creditors of the country. It is the state of money over the globe just now which gises Mr. GLADSTONE an opportunity of dealing with the debt at all. The state of the markets, and that state alone, can do us good; and the needless flinging away of le per cent. upon any one stock is nothing butter than mere waste. Mr. 01.AntifONE had no need to devise the three options he has offered to secure the cud in view; two would have been ample: anti if now, in the discussion on the bill to be founded upon his resolutions, the House of Commons were to throw over that part of the scheme which proposes the giving of 110 for 100, they would do well, and both the reputation of the Cums exthon of the EXCHEQUER and the pockets lof the people would be benefited. Mr. Ghansroxs repeats more than once that the desire of his Govern ment is to establish, if possible, an irred( eniable public stock, bearing not more than 21 per cent. in terest, and having a respectable price in the market. English credit is quite good enough to secure such an object. if such an object is gained it mast be I solely on the strength of that credit. Why then needlessly fritter away the public resources by this 1101. proposition? Throwing away three millions would not build up a national credit if it did not now ex'st in a country that owes between seven and eight hundred millions. If this Increase of the Debt Scheme is adhered to it will he a most unnecessary blunder. The Treasury Bends will float readily, but all the more lead 4 it the second temptation of 1101. for 100?. is not set up in opposition to them. If Mr. GLADSTONX should be able to force his s2heine uncor rected in this particular point upon the House of Commons and the country, he will soon see which of his three baits will be swallowtd first. Ile thinks all the offers arc alike, and that all are cquaily favourable to JOHN BULL. The Stock Exchange will "give him a wrinkle" (as the phrase runs) on this, if the chance is afforded. At present he perils two good points by setting up a third and bad one. Some of the advantages pointed out yesterday in these columns as appertaining to the proposed Trea sury Bonds were dwelt upon by Mr. GLADSTONR. 'I heir ease of transfer, their value to men of busines.. their probable acceptability to foreigners, weak• all pointed out. But by a new proposition in the second edition of the Resolutions, Mr. GLADSTONE makes a change that risks the loss of large part of this last advantage. He limits the date of issue 'of Exchequer Bonds to April, 1854. Does he forget that to feel the full effect of foreign desire to purchase such securities, time must be given ? Many people abroud will doubtless at once purchase Eng lish Exchequer Bonds, but the bulk of the foreigners who may be purchasers of such things w,ll not coins rushing through the air like flocks of pigeons over a Yankee prairie. Time is wanted. People abroad are not so hasty as some of us here in England, gad more than a year will assuredly be needed for ascertaining the full floatable capacity of an English Sterling Bond bearing 2 per cent. interest, trans ferable from hand to baud, and having coupons pay able wheu due to bearer. THE CASE OF MR. CRAUFURD. We understand that an ample apology has been sent by the Tuscan authorities, through the Foreign office, to Mr. Craufurd, the English gentleman who was compelled to leave the dominions of the Grand Duke. The objection to Mr. Craufurd's return to Tusmay has at the same time been withdrawn. 'tit Court. HEALTH OF HER MAJESTY. The following Bulletin of her Majesty'. health wee issued this morning : " Beckingbass-Palace, April 9, 16.)3, Mao o'clock. a.m. " The Queen has slept sell. " lfer Majesty and the latent ninee are going cn quite hototuably. " JANES CLAIM, M.D. CiinuLros Loeock, M.D. ROEERT FERGUSON, M.D." Tho Duchess of Rent visited her Majesty, yesterday, at Buckingham Pi:lace. The members of :he royal family sent to inquire after the state of the Queer.. Prince Albert, attended by Lieut.sPolonel F. 11. Sey mour visit, d the Duchess of Modem r, yesterday, at her residence, Gloucester House, Piceode Prince A:bert role out On horseback, yesterday afternoon, attended by Lieut.-Col. F. 11. Symout. The Sicilian Minister and the Princess de Carini, the SarJinian Mini,ter, the American Minister, the Turhath Minister and Madame Mucurus, the French Ambassador and Countess Wslewvka, the Netherlands Minister, the Count and Countess Colluredo, the Chevalier and Madame Hebeier ' the Porteurnesc Minister and the C o u n t ess Lavra dio, the Greek Minister and Madame Tricoupi, the Spant,la Minister, the I'i ruei-n Minister, the Mexican Chorge d'Affaires and Madame and Mademoiselle Facies, the Now Grenada Charge d'Affaires, and mi•er members of tins diplomatic cow, called yesterday at Buckingham Palace to inquire after the I.:at.e of the Queen. The following gentlemen holdibg ott:zial station, and ladies and gentlentca connected with the Rsyal House hold:, attended yesterday to make their dutiful inquiries after the health of her Majesty : —Lora John lin.a,ll, Sit William and Ltely Moleswott'i, Used and Lady Haulm, Sir John and. linty Dadsin Timount and Viscoursteas I Canning, thellight Don. Sha ne, and Mc Iterbeit, Ltd I