The Express. — London, England, 1848-07-29 00:00:00

[TRIAL PARLIA.nENT. —.--___ HOUSE OF LORDS. —FRIDAY, JULY .. The Loan CHANCELLOR took his seat at five o'clock. PRIVATE BA:SINUS& THIRD READINGS. Newport and Pontypool Railway Act Amendment; Worcester Turripke Triggs ; Bills. PUBLIC BUSINESS. VETITIONI. —By the Bishop of DVItIiAM, from Parham, spinet the sale of intoxicating liquors on the nabhath. SECoN 0 M M d- - Suits; Administration of Criminal Juane° ; Mee. COMMITIEF--Higbland Reads and Bridges (Peolland) Bill. THUM READINGS.—Prinons• Beeh.ntantonii pompom volts Compromise (Unbind) ; Exeliange'of Admissions In the counties Warwick and stetted; Provident Associations Fraud Prevention; Trustees Belief (Ireand); dills. LEEDS AND THIRSK. RAILWAY COMPANY. Lord REDESDALE moved that the to of the Leeds and Think Itiilw ay Company, praying he heard by coun sel against the Clarence Railway and Leeds and Thirsk Railway Amalgamation Bill (presented on the 23rd June last, and r, ferried to the select committee oa the said bill) oe referred to the s tanding order committee to decide whether it was a petition which oug ht to have been heard. The Eon of MORLEY defended the decision of the Mee =Mee. Alter a conversation, the Loot, CHdivision.ANCELLOR. pat the motion, which w. s negatived without a BILL DECLARATORY SUITS . Lor d BROUGHAM m oved these...end reading of this hal, the object of wh ich was to enable parties to obtain an imme diate legal decision on question s of marriage, legitimacy of c hildren, and other important points, without the necessity of a n a ction at law. The LORD CHANC ELLOR approved highly both of the objects of th e bill and of the cou rse propose to be taken by the noble and learned lord. I Bill read a second time. ECCLESIASTICAL SUITS COMP ROMISE ( .RELAND) BILL. Earl FORT E SCU E moved the third reading of the above bill. The Marvin of CLAN ItICAILDE took that opportunity to state at at the reque.,t of L wit Stanley, who wished to take por t in the discussion, he had consented to poetpone the consideration of the Commons amendments on the Evicted Tenants (Ireland) Bill. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE assured the noble mar quis and thee house that no exertions should belrish wantingsu on the part of th e gove rnm ent to expedite the meares as much as possiile. The Inesmbered Estates bill would certainly come up to that &use on en Monday, and he trusted he should receive the co-operation of th lordship' in pass ing it into n law. s aid he bail h ea rd that many Lord REDESDAL E and important changes had been made in the bill in the Commons and, thrietore, he could nut oledge himself to accede* to its becoming law without the fullest consideration. The E irl of GLE NGALL said that the bill in question would require the most candul consideration. As at present framed, lie believe d it to be the most infamous piece of tyrann y that was eve r framed by a desp ot. (Laughter.) The Marquis of CLAN RICAItDE trusted that the noble earl would not interpose any delay in the way of the In cumbered Estates Bill. There was no measure more loudly called for. Every . post trot Ireland brought to him the most anxinivi inquiries respecting it. (Hear, hear.) Lard DIONTEAGLE thought it would be a most incon venient practice if their lordship, were to allow a measure which had been originated iu their house to be compietely altered in te commons, and then to pass it es altered a tingle debathe, and after being allowed only two days furafter con. sidemtion. The Earl of GLENGA.LL said that thereonly four Irish peers belonging to that side of the house in London, all the rest having gone home to assist the government in maintaining the public peace. Was that a time in which to hurry on a measure, the effect of which would erntiscate nine-tenths r.e the landed property of Ireland ? Lord CAMPBELL raid that the bill was no new bill. It was the same measure which their lordships had passed, greatly improved, as he conceived, by the amendments of the Co The Earl of MOUNTCASHELL concurred in deprecating hasty ledation with respect to the Incumberel Estates Bill. The gi LOlt D CHANCELLOR said that noble or nem Ireland teemed anxious to discuss on Friday a measure which would come before the house until the following Monday. (A laugh.) The measure belore the house was the Eccle eisetical Salts Compromise Bid. The bill was then read a third time an :lock.d passed. Th e ir lordships adjourned at lean o'. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—PRIDAY, JULY 28. The Smek.can took the chair at 4 o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. SEC OND REIDINGS. — Duke of Bridgewater's Estate; Greens law's (or Woolwich glebe lands) Estate; Nicnolson's Divorce; Rams den's Fst.te ; Waterhouse's Charities Estate); w Railway and REPORT CONSlDERED.—Eili n biugh arid Glasgo Edinburgh and !Indurate Railway ArnaOrauiation ltilL THIRD READING. —lludderalleld Improvement ,No. 2) Bill. LORDS' AMENDMENTS CONSIDERED. —Dundee and Arbroa a th Railway (Dundee j unction;; Edinburgh and Glacgow Railway, nd Glasgow, Airdr and Monklanils Junction Railway (amendment of sets)• London and North Western Railway (branches and extensions from Leamington, U.); Bills. PUBLIC IRMINESA SECOND READlNGS.—Paymastars' Offices ConsolidationOvore law Cnion Charges (No. 2); Bills. COYISH ITEE--larmers' Estate Society (Ireland) ; British Spirits Warehousing; Bills. REPORTS.—R-prodoctise Loan Fund Institution (Ireland); Juve nile Offenders (Ireland); Land-taxpornmissioners' Names; Regent's Quadrant Colonnade; Rum Duties; Bit% THIRD READINGS. —Salmon Breed Preeervation; Public Works grelarci) (Na 2); Bills. NOTICE OF NOTION. —K ATM WA a.—Sfr. OSBORNE, oa Thum. day next, an address praying her Majesty to voider some mark of distinction on thoce °Mars who distinguished themselves in the Bahr sat. THE CHELTENHAM AND ORS HAM ELECTION PETIT lONS. Mr. F. AULE said that with reference to the motion standirg in M the name et the hon. member Isr Pontefract (Mr. M. Manes) to postpone the committees on the petition against the return for these boroughs till next session, he bad made it quiry of the beet authoriti out violating the Oct es, and found that it was not competent for the house, with of pardament, to mate such an order ; neither could the committee of seketion defer the nomination of the com- the m ittee beyond some day in the resent session. On ground of the inconvenience to hon. members who might be liable to serve he regretted that this° committees should have been delayed to so late &period of the session ; at the same time no one could say whether, under existing circum stances, it might not be necessary for parliament to continue sitting a month longer than was generally expected. (Hear.) Mr. M. MILK ES hoped the right hon. gentleman would apply his mind to the subject, with the view of preventing the extenson of th inconvenience of remaining in attend ance until i the 10the of August, the day fixed for striking the committees of the whole panel from which they were to be selected, consisting as it did of no less than 100 members. The SPEAKER intimated that the house had no power the to adjourn the appointment of the co mmittee beyond existing session ;sad after a few words from Mr. C. Berkeley,' Mr. F. !dente, and Mr. Milnes, the subject dropped. THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT BILLS. Mr. C. BULLER withdrew the l'oor-law Officers' Super annuation Bill, against which he understood strong objec tions were entertained both in and out of the house, an the d intimated that if he sh ould determine on carrying out obct n a future session he would do so by a differnt mole. l de. ( liar, hear.) With regard to the Poor-law Union Charges Bill, which the house had already had under dis cussion on two occasions, he was assureu that the opinion out of doors was more favourable to that measui e than to the other, and so far as the general principle went he had no reason to suppose, from what had taken place in the house, but that it would, if carried to a division, be affirmed by a large majority. (Heat and no.) Nor did Le believe h sees s hould have any great difficulty in carrying the clau through committee. The opponents of the measure, however, he was aware possessed a power of obstruction he could not resist—the power of time. lie did not, how ever, propose to abandon this bill altogether, but to take the clause which renewed Mr. Bodkin's act of last year, and the clause which made the charge for vagrancy a general charge pier the whole unio n, the first being necessary to prevent t act in question expiring, and without the second he could not hope to straggle against the great evil of vagrancy. These two clauses he must press, but the rest of the bill he should abandon for this session. (Hear, hear.) It there was no objection he would propose that the bill should be read a second time without further discussion, then to go into committee proforma, and reduce the bill to the objeeta he had stati ii. It there should be any objection to the bill as so limited, the discussion might be taken when they again went into committee. If that course should be objected to he would bring in a new bill embracing the two clauses only. The order of the day for the Poor-law Officers' Superan nuation Allowance Bill was then read and discharged. POORAW UNION CIiARGIES BILL. Mr. C. BULLER having moved that the bill be now read a second time, Mr. SPOONER hail received many complaints against this bill generally, including that clause whichwent to renew -r e. Bodkin's act. He could not, therefore, consent to the e now proposed. HENLEY also opposed the motion. a few words from Mr. FitEWEN, BULLER, in reply to a question from Mr. CLE .I the clause relating to Irish and Scotch paupers ithdrawn without any practical hardship being -s was no nett saity for the intervention of the doubt as to the law of the case—the inter .ily put on the the Settlement Act of 1816 in being the same as that put upon it in LENTS gave notice that he should oppose the he clause in question. 'E expressed a hope that a general measure whole subject of the poor-law would be td next session. was then withdrawn. STATE OF IRELAND. LEN asked whether, in the event of the de ject not being concluded that evening, and as that Irish members, who were naturally present at that debate, should roceed to as poesible, the noble lord in p tended to house should meet to proceed with the dis to-morrow (this day)? RUSSELL.—ShouId the debate on the motion 3 committee of supply and the amendment of thee for Rochdale not be concluded that even move that the house meet to-morrow (this , o'clock. to continue it. f PRACTICES AT ELECTIONS BILL. •been intimated that this Dili would be proceeded - u Monday, at twelve o'clock, ea Tuesday next, THE YEOMANRY OF IRELAND. Sir A. BROOKE asked if the government intended, in the event of a general insurrection in Ireland, to call out the yeomanry of the north ? The tafety of the country was already attributable to the loyalty and services of that corps. MALTA. Mr. bring forward the motion Even on his own property he could count upon S at to men anxious and ready to serve her Majesty. lie hoped the noble lord would give some information on the subject, in order that they might he prepared to take such steps as that information might require. Lord J. RUSSELL said he had already written to the lord-lieutenant on the subject, and in all his observation* he ended with saying that whatever reasons there might be for calling out the yeomanry, he thought it was a question which ought to be left to his (the lord-lieutenant'st judg ment and discretion, rather than be determined ty the crown. (Hear, hear.) There was the greatest confidence on the part of the viceroy and the government towards the yeomanry corps alluded to by the hon. gentleman, and if they should not be called out, it would be from no doubt in Mr. HAWES stated (in reply to several questions) that the appointment of the civil governor of Malta would in crease the army estimates. (Hear, hear ) THE STATE OF IRELAND. On the order of the day for going into • committee of that su cl E r e s r l 3' . : S e c . t C . R A W F 0 R id D of which he had given notice, namely—" That the present i distracted state of Ireland demands the instant attention of parliament, with a view to the speedy enactment of such meesures as may be necessary, to improve the condition, re dress the grievances, and establish the just rights of the Irish I people, and thereby prom ote the good order and prosperity I of that portion of the United Kingdom, and give ncreased i security to her Majesty's crown and government." It was his intention to follow up that motion by one similar to that proposed by the noble lord in 1844, forgoing into a committee of the whole house to consider the state of Inland. On that occasion, viz. on the 13th of February, 1844, the noble lord said, '' we have before us the notorious tact that Ireland is filled postedwpe and that the barracks in which these troop' are p have been forti fi ed. We have heard, too, only this morning, that preparations have been made, as if the government were in hourly expectation of civil war. We have before us, in short, the fact that Ireland is occupied and not governed by those who now hold the reins of power. In England the government, as it should be, and has been, is a government of opinion ; the government of Ireland is notoriously a government of force." The noble oble lord subsequently said , ' I can see no hope for counry unles you take a new and very different course from that wh s ich you have yeti pursued." These were the sentiments which he (Mr. Crawford) now addrverd f whatto he n oble lord and that helm. It they were ignorant o ought to be do it was their own fault, for Ire aine's wrong', and ne the means of remedying them had been so often stated t that they were and had been for a long time matters of record. The non. gentleman then quoted the commiasionere of the poor-law and various other authorities, to show that the great mass of the people were without food or employment ; to which elate he contended they had been reduced by the misgovernment, o ppression, and unjust and partial laws of the British parliament. The penal l a ws imposed by Queen Anne hail told with fearful effect upon the country, and had impoverished the other classes as well as the Roman catholics against whom th free ey were direeed. In 17 58 there was a demand mule for trade, but it was rejected by the English House of Com mons, in G nteq c ouence of r epresentations from Bristol, Liver pl, and lasgow. In 1782 she obtained her independence; but, alter a 20 years' struggle between the supporters of Irish liberty and the advocates of British rule, a rebellion was fomented, and the union carried by means of the greatest corruption and fraud. The noble lord at the head of her Majesty's government &eked, in 1844, whether the conditions on which the union was carried were fulfilled. He would now ask the name question. Roman catholic emancipation was not granted until twenty years afterwards. The Irish Reform Act was passed, and also the Municipal Corporation Act, but neither ot them was carried in a fair spirit of equality. There ws ano ther grievance whichthe English government ha I pledge a d themselves to redress. Ile referred to the tithe question, and he should like to know -vhether that question was 'satis factorily settled. The people of Ireland paid as much tithes as ever. The tithes amounted to 378,000!. a year ; the re i venue of church lands amounted to 211,000 1 . a year, both amounting to 580,5501. a year, that amount being upwards of half a million, still continued as a drain upon the resource of the people of Ireland,and that great drain was still appli , d to the use of one church, the members of which little exceeded one.twelith of the population. (Hear, hear.) He then referred to the registration, and contended that the people of Ireland could not be considered as possessing any thing that could be called a franchise, and he condemned the. poor law u utterly inefficient for the relief of the pauoers of Ireland. The Landlord and Tenants Bill, which was brought in by the government, would be of no value, and would give no eatielaction to either the landlord or tenant in that country. He produced resolutions paned at a meeting of 24 orange lodges in the north of Ireland, which showed that their demands would not he satisfied by this bill. There were various other measures which were promised : there was the measure for the reclamation of waste lands; that measure was put off'. The people were exterminated and allowed to starve, while there were millions of acres of waste land which was reclaimable, and thousands of people ready to work. It was a question that ought to be at once entertained, even at a loss to the state. The Incumbered Estates Bill was not one which would redress the evils which now existed—the only bill which could be of value was the Landlord and Tenants:Bill, if introduced on a;proper basis. 1 At the opening of the session her 'Majesty in her speech called the attention of the present ministry to the Mare of 'lreland, in order that the grievances of that country should I be remedied, but her Majesty's government, nevertheless, brought in, in the first place, a coercion bill, which was sup ported and carried by liberal members on the mm co ed nditi iately on th a t remedial measures would be proposed i afterwards. No remedial messura was passed, and yet they passed two additional coercion measures. The bill for the remedy of the abuses connected with the eviction of the poor in Ireland was three months before both hovers of parliament and not parsed, while Mr. Bodkin's act. cour ir. n ti o E w ii p L ro E pose y I m Af r ter c a . B fe u w u wo E rd r i M Eat: b , s e aid: ith he am cla in , inflicted. There house to solve any pretation generally this respect being clause. Mr. CLEMENT withdrawal of the • t Mr. I'. SCROD] i embracing the w • brought forward n The motion was • S Sir. L. O'BRIE bate on this stlbjel it was desirable tl anxious to be p Ireland as soon propose that the t cusmon to-movrov Lord J. RUSS for going into co the hon. member ing, he would m day), at twelve o CORRUPT I It having been U not on DI HE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, JULY 29, 1848, m........... 1 .0.............."-- Col. SI B i BURP declared that he would persist in moving the adjournment ol the house when that bill was brought on, even thougk he Might be charged*with • factious opposition. (A Istigh.) kfIEDICAL CHARITIES AND SANITARY IMPROVEMENT (IRELAND) BI LL. Sir W. SOMERVILLE, in answer to Mr. Faistecii, ex. erased h a regret that it would be out of his power to pro pose any measure this session as to medical charitie s in Ireland ; and with reamed to unitary improvement he found that the Health of Towns Bill ot his noble friend (Lord Morpeth) would require considerable alteration to make it applicable to Irish purposes. It was not therefore propii.rd to 'Mend its operation to that country ; but it W:l6 his intention to bring in a temporary measure renewing the Fever Act of 1546. adapting A to the present CifeUMSISIllCea of the country. lie could not say that any special mi emir° was in contem plation as to the apprehended attack of the cholera. GERMANUTIES ON 13ItITISH hIAN U FACTU RES. Lord 0. B ENT' INCK said that • report had reached this cluntry to the effect that the parliament of the German con f e deration we now engaged in passing a measure for increasing the duties charged on our cotton and woollen manufactures —on plain goods from 30 to 65 dollars per cwt., and on fancy goods from 50 to 75 dolisra a cwt.; and which would, in fact , a mount to a prohibition. lie wished anon whether the Right Hon. President of the Board of Trade had received any information confirming this report Mr. LABOUCHERE replied that no information ot any such proposition had reached the Foreign-office ; and he thought it must he at least premature, liecaum the Diet o Frankfort had not yet !settled the basis of the e constitution,f and they were not therefore in a position to pass mach a measure RBI EGIS TERING OF RTHS, &c. (SCOTIAND) BILL. The LORD-ADVOCATE (having been appealed to by Mr. Driseas to abandon this measure) stated that he would not nova the second re.aling that evening, a but the be reprinted with a view to its being read second time bi onll OA early evening. But ke could not consent to abandon ii ifalsore which had already b cn well considered, and had "lea the et4VegECTRIC TELEGRAPH. Mr. MACKINNON asked if it wa vs ent the intention of of the the government to take any steps to pre by electric telegraph the dissemination of false intelligence ? Sir G. GREY said that if the hon. gentleman alluded to what had whoently occurred, he will enabled to state that the man bad actually delivered the packages to the news agents in Liverpool, those news agents having been thereby completely imposed upon, had been identified. He had given a description of the person from whom he received them, and had declared that he bad no doubt he could re cognise him if he per him. As for the int, ntion ofthe go vernment it w kingsoly impossible to prevent frauds of that nature from tan place. He might observe, however, that the art of parliament under which the railway companies I were constituted gave to the government the power, by I wa , rant of the Secretary of State, to take posees.sion of the wlvde machinery of the telegraph 50 as to prevent the trans- I mission of any information except by the sanction of the government h bed tl ie y shouldalready mot adopt without sufficient reason. as they were bound to ODUlpeTdite the companies, and it could only be iustilied by the existing circumstances of the moment. government. note . rci.,, a i fi d Butt hat henpo w eirt was h u e DISEASE AMONGST SHEEP. Stafford) Mr. LABOUCHERE stated (in reply to Mr. that there was much disease amongst the sheep of this 1 etiontry at present, and that he should, in consequence, feel it his duty to intr duce a bill in the present session to Ore the government power to prevent the importatiou in certain cases of foreign sheep into this country—(cheers from the protectionists)—and to take such precautions as might be necessary to prevent the spread of disease. (Hear, hear.) NEW WRIT. A new writ was ordered for Thetford, in the room of the Right Hon. W. B Baring, who had been called to toe upper house as Lonl Ashburton. SAVINGS BANKS IN IRELAND. Lord J. RUSSELL stated (in reply to Mr. Herbert) that his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, would gives,ndanext move, in conformity with the scr ice already forthe nomination of the committ e to consider the question of savings banks in Ireland, d ee ming that a better e mu than at once to introduce a bill on so very difficult a =Wet. DIPLOMATIC RELATIONSROMEBILL. WITH THE COURT OF Lord I. RUSSELL said (in reply to Mr. Buck) that it was the intention of the meetgoverno proceed with this bill, and without propreing to omit proviso adopted by the House of Louis. Lord PALMERSTON said (in reply to a further ques. tion) that it would not be brought en without sufficient notice. the bill bill for the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act was passed in two days. The measures the wh al ic te h hen thought he neces sary for lulling' were, • bill or rat o union in many respects ; a bill for altering the appropriation of church revenues; a new grand jury bill, arid a new petit jury till. These were measures which were justly require& by the preople of Ireland, They also wanted a bill for the relief of landlds under entail; a bill for the reclamation of wa d. lands ; or • bill which would levy a tax on absentees, and . bill to amend the poor law in many respects. Ile would remind the government that it was the in necessity of much The meas ures that cau sed the great cry of repeal Ireland. governme nt were now in th at position that they should scion of I be satisfied e ither to held militaty p osse or to grant concessions to the peeps of that country. As the representative of an English constituency, he felt it his duty to urge on the house remedial measure.. for Ireland. Every act yet pass. d was absolutely • declaration of war ; they would have to be enforced by the sword ; and unless an opposite courie w as immediately pursued by the govern ment, n othing could pre vent the evils he had antic i p ated. Go otrnment might say they had not bad the means or the time to puss remedial measures ; but if they had threatened to surrender office if these m:asures were not passed the result would hove been diffilont. I f Ith eland e nobl let hi e lornt d woul d d not carry the measure s necessary for r resig offices ; let him not be made an instrument of oppression, It this house would not pus the necessary measures how could the cry fur repeal be resisted ? Before goin c a ne toome to his const it u ents he wanted to have a message of p convey I --Wane assurance that their grievances should he redressed. (Hear, hear.) lie was anxious not to see the people led into acts of violence ; and had the Irish members used their moral force in a different way this evil might have been averted. The landlords hillicen made tyrants and maste over the people, who w,re a teduced to the c.ndition of slaves,rs without having the privilege of slaves, that of being sup ported by their ownere. This evil was also attributable to imperial legislation. The question having been put, Lord .1. RUSSELL rose and said—Sir, the hon. gentleman has brought forward this resolution in language so deferent, that I shall prefer following his example to introducing any thing into the course of the debate which can tend to pro duce greater asperity and warmer contention on the interesting subject which be has brought beforecannot say that I armor in many of the opinions which the hon. gen demon has expressed. In some of those opinions I do agree ; and I am ready to state the view I take of a great portion of the subjects to which he has called atte n tion. In con sidering the conduct of this imperial parliament, as the hon. gentleman has brought it Wore the house, I think it is hardly just to say that certain measures nave been long delayed,that they have been brought before this house many years ago without being carried into law, and to attribute this delay or refusal entirely and ulely to our uowillingness to debate Irish eubjects, or grant a remedy for Irish griev ances. Whether it bit a portion of our character and temper —whether it be owing to the complicated form of our go vemint—whether it be owing to the h of which pr r ev n ails in parliament and in the country—the thitdeba facts that hardly any measure of great public importance, whether re. latieg to the United Kdom or to any purtion of it, is ever carried without a very coniderable delay, without the vicis situdes of being rejected at one time and triumphant at an other, protracted and postponed at one period, and only as sen to after o There are q uestions relat ing t ted o the entire kingdom, both before and after the union took place, such as the questions of parliamentary reform and the abolition of the slave trade, which occupied nearly thirty years in the discusieon; and there are va rious other instances in which it is obvious that trom some of the causes I have mentioned just and fair subjects of legislation did not produce their effect in the adoption of the measures sought, till after • long period of time and bitter and repeated debates. (Ilear.) I say it ii not just, therefore, when speaking of Irish measures, to say that their delay is entirely owing to our unwillingness to discuss Irish grief ,-nces and to apply that remedy which may seem to a portion, end it generall seems so only to a H poro Lion, of the Irish representatives to be required. (ear, hear.) The hon. gentleman, like others, has described the state in which we find Ireland at the present moment, and I must therefore ask hie attention and that of the house to the description which was given of t he state i 1 Ireland by an adversar d certainly of the government ol that ay, in a - phlet published a b o ut 1796 or 07. It is there etated pam :—" If the condition of the peuple be the best criterion whereby to judge of the excellency o. their practical government, we might conclude thas the people ot Ireland, who are worse housed, worse clad, and worse led than the subjects of the most inveterate despot of Europe, live under one of thelworopractical governments in the world." That shows, at least in the opinion of this writer, that it is not the creation of the imperial parliament', or the government, since the union, that the people ef Ireland are ill.housed and ill.clad. The inheritance which the imperial parliament derived from the p a rliament before the union was a people in that unfor tunate and miserable condition. But, it may be said, there is one grievance, at least, which is caused entirely by the existence of an imperial parlinment—absenteeism.the land But this pam phlet goes on to say—" Does the produce of in Ireland go to supply the fund for the employment of the people ? No. Your cons, your cattle, your butter, your flax, your yarn, all Tour superfluous produce, and much more than would be superfluous if the people of Ireland were furnished with the common necessaries of life, are dlall ex ported without return, to pay the rents of Irish ord., wbo do not think the country worthy their residence ; every particle of which is as utterly last to lifto fund for the em in to the of the people ot Ireland as it had been thrown into the *ea." So far, then, these are not grievances of oar creation, but of long endurance, rooted in the state of society in Ireland. All that the hon. gentleman or any one else can say of the present generation is that they should do as much as they can, patiently and gradually, be cause it must be done patiently an gr idea e lly, to remedy that state of things. (Hear, hea d r.) And, lt me say — whatever blame may be imputed to the governments or the parliaments of former times or of this period—that after the condition of a people has become such as it has been repre sented to be before the union, the habits, the w ishises, theand in clinations of the people themselves tend onaia foster that wretched state of society which I have described. For instance, I centrist. r it as one of the great misfortunes of Ireland that the population has gone on increasing without a proportionate increase in the means of subsistence and com fort. With a social condition much to be deplotisred, with th a the e arly marriages of the peasantry, who are safied wi miserable hovel and • plot of potato-ground, furnishing them a precarious subsistence for the year, without their looking to an increase of comfort, without their waiting for marriage till they had accumulated a sufficiency for the sure and comfortable subsistence of • married couple,—that state of society has been of itself a misfortune, with which it was very difficult, if not impossible, for any legislature to deal. I am not saying whether originally the degradation of the Roman Catholics of Ireland as a race—whether the cruel and unjust penal laws to which they were tu subjecte ng d whether the laws which prevented the people from rni their attention to trade and manufactures —whether the re ligious bigotry of the seventeenth century and the commer cial jealousy of the cighteenth—may not have contributed in a great measure to produce the state of things to which I have alluded. , tCheers.) lam not indicatedvidcating the proceed ings of those days, any more than aume of the acts of the Norman cocquerors, who, I believe, were as tyrannical in this country a: they were in Ireland. All I con t e nd for is that, such having been t he case, such being the difficulty we inherit, such being the society we have to govern, it is not the work of a day, or a month, of one, h , or three years, to change that state of society, to induce ate people to look up to a better condition, and to put all classes into such a state of harmony with one another that the progress of the society towards civili sation, wealth, and prosperity, shall be rapid and unim peded. With these preliminary considerations, therefore, 1 enter on same of the topics to which the hon. gentleman has alluded. He complains of the refusal of civil and political privileges to the Roman catholics of Ireland from the time of the union till 1820. 1 consider that that refusal was un inst. I see nothing in the creed of the Roman catholics , which should have debarred them from all the civil and i political privileges of the other inhabitants of these islands. From the time I had • vote in this house, 1 constantly voted for the repeal of these disabilities ; and I consider it a great misfortune, of which we yet feel the effects, that that mea sure was not made a part of the act of union. (Hear, hear.) I heard Mr. Canning in this house relate a conversation he bail with Mr. Pitt on this subject. The latter had re ceived a deepetch from Lord Cornwallis, stating, "I think I can carry for you the =cameo of union with England ; hut the measure for enabling Roman catholics to participate in all the privileges of the protestants of Ireland I shall not be able to carry." " Then," said Mr. Canning," if I were you I would refuse both. I would not ve one without that the other." (Hear, hear.) Mr. Canning hlr. Pitt, with great reason, rebuked the indiscretion and intemperance of the young man who ventured on this opinion; but I eery much doubt, looking at all that has since passei, wheiher the youthful premptings of Mr Can ning's ingenuous mind, did nut poiet to t a oiser course than the mature deliberation of Mr. l'itt. (ear, hear.) These differences of political privilege were, howev oo abolished in 1829 ; and now no one can deny that any Roman catholic in Ireland, who has a fair claim to any professional or p. li tical distinction, has as fair a chance of obtaining those dis tinctions as a protestant. On another subject, I think the hon. gentleman hardly did justice to what has been done by the imperial parliament and by former governments. The question of tithes was one of the greatest grievances of Ire land before the union. Not only every farm oneall r, b the ut every poor cotti erora s obliged to pay tithes in kind vege tablm of his crop; and the ecclesiastical courts decided all questions as to the amount ef those tithes. All this con stituted a grievance of the most acute and harassing nature. The parliament of the United Kinedom on the proposition of the right honourable gentleman the member for the Univenity of Cambridge, settled a plan for the commutation of tithes. Some years after, in 1834, Lord Wellesley recommended a permanent and compulsory commutation of tithes into a rent charge. That plan was carried into effect in 1818, with a deduction of 25 per cent. from the whole amount of the tithes, leaving them only 73 per cent. of the original charge, and fixing that charge as a sum to be paid by the landlord, who was left to recover it in the shape of rent. Thus was prevented the necessity of collection, which had been the source, not only of complaint, but almost of a servile war in some parts of the country. (Hear, hear.) This r moved the grievance arising from the nature of th y e ne grievance of another kind, that tithes were paid to the clergy, is a totally different notation, on which I shall have to touch. The hon. gentl a e m' an complains that the R e form Act of 1832 has been failure ; but he should recollect that in Ireland, as in Eng land, it gave the people great power which they had no.: hitherto possessed. In Ireland there were many nomination boroughs, such as Tralee, which I think was handed down by will from one party to another, the iediridual having the sole right of nominating the inembere. Ily the Reform Act these boroughs were thrown open to the people, wha thenceforward became the real electors. Though the number of member for Ireland was not a question for the Beam Antath" hay in g yet an addition of five memben was made acute time. The been settled at the time of the union, hon. gentleman has referred to the petty juries. 0 o that sub ject, I believe, the law isthe same in Ireland as in England ; If any essential differen ce replainS, which Ido not think is the cue, itcertainly ought to be rrected. With respect to the fraechiee, an hon. c illeague of mine introduced a mea sure, in 1840 or 1841, for tit purpose of enlarging it. When whichc ime into office, in 1846, it was one of the best questions to I directed the attention of my lamented fry nd, Lord Ressl.orough. He prepared the outline of a measure on the subject in the autumn of ItS46, which was ready to have been produced at the commencement of the next session. Honourale entlemen may ask why , it was not introduced — w hy w e re t he se mea sures delayed ? I have before given an Sillirtr to tat questin. The great calamity which fell upon Ireland.h the total failure of the chief article of sub sistence, made it so imperatively nece overwhelming to attend to some means of mitigat in g that great nod calamity—that it was not a time to attend to questions of the extension of the franchise. In the present session we have introduced a bill, founded on the principle Lord Betaborough recommended ; and if it be not pasted until nextsession, the o nly evil that c an arise from the postponeme a is in the one or two election s that may µk.: place in particular boroughs or counties. Unless a general election were to take place, there will b I no practical evil from carrying that measure into effect in IS le, rather than in 1848. Tnat bill will add considerably to the number of electors in Ireland, and will so for remedy the grievance complained of, of the small num ber of electors. But let me otwerve upon this subject, that I though the number of electors may be very few in Ireland, and the people may fairly complain of that as a grievance, this and many other grievances are not such we to prevent the progressed the people, provided they exert themselves manfully to obtain that station an d condition in society, by industry and attention to their own immediate pursuits, which the general freedom of ° T constitutin allows. What was the case in Scotland ? Till the Reform Bill of 1831, the people of Scotland had altogether no more than about 3,000 electors ; and yet, by their spirit of industry, by &rail ing themselves of the genius of our tree constitution, wi thi nsin those liberties which the constitution confers on all its limits, English, Scotch, or Irish, they did, between the web Ilion of 1745, and the pitied of the Reform Bill, make, in the course of those 80 years, as great and remarkable a prestress as any people on the fare of the globe ever made. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, sir, while I admit, with regard to the Iranche ad other subjects, that the people of Intend may have n just n reason for complaint, I totally deny that grievances of this kind are any sufficient reason why they should not make great progress —why they e mar shokable uld hot, bye, that i o telligence which they possess in a r degre and by fixieg their ds rather on the advantages which they might enjoy, if they used all those advantages to the latolimit, than on the grievances which they suth r, make rapid pr. grew towards wealth and prosperity. Another subject to which the hon. gentleman alluded, is one in which he has taken a groat interest ; but on which 1 cannot come to simi , lar conclusions the relation of landlord and enat. Those who adopt his op i n i o ns, and perhaps carry the t m f u ther than he does, appear to confound two things essentially and totally distinct. The tenant -right of the north of Ire land is a usage differing in various parts, the payment amounting in some places to three or lour years, in others to ten or twelve years' purchase ; and there are other difference , . Be the principle good or had, it is obvious that a tenant who has paid a sum equivalent to ten years purchase to an outgoing tenant, with the knowledge of the landlord, is to be considered as having a claim on the landlord tor ou i salent advantage when he g ives up the farm, and it w an equ ld he a fraud to deprive him of it. I should he very sorry if w ded n. 1 1 any bill sanctioned by the government should be supposed in any way to authorise a breach of ft ith betwt en landlords ' an d tenants in places where that custom prevails. But the hou. gentleman always argues the question as though the right could be at once and simply transferred from districts, n p k ro n v o i w ( thieeeree.thea hear. ) ge A h e a d s i p t r i e e v em ail e e r d ie to d w th e o h se ie ewhereeteetiis that,u the occupier of land pays his rent, he has a pepetual tight to the occupation of the land. (Hear, hear)har. Why, can anything be more completely subversiv the rights of property ? (Hear, Lear.) A man who inherits an estate lets a portion of it, say 100 acres of improvable land, at a very small rent, perhaps 75. or 10s. an acre, expecting that the tenant will improve the land. This he fails to do, but regularly pays his rent. Will you then transfer the property of the land from the landlord to the tenant, who had net claim to the land, who was admitted solely at the will and pleasure of the landlord ? I own I cannot think that par- I 'fitment can with any sort of justice !auction such a law. would strike .) at the u root of property in the whole of the I United Kingdom. (Hear, hear.) The government have' introduced a bill on very different principles, with a view to the improvement of land, sn nandegulating the relation of landlord and tenant. It is gely agreed in Ireland that some measure of this kind is necessary, some compulsory in terference between landlord and tenant; otherwise, I should have thought that we were going too far in making the pro posals we have do' e. We prop se to interfere so far uto make it necessary for the landlord to submit to certain con ditions with respect to the treatment of his land, to which he had not orignally agreed, for the purpose of promoting its cultivation. The bill was approved by a committee, consist ing mainly of Irish members; but it does not appear that we shall be able further to consider that measure be this session , If, during the recess, any improvements can suggested the government will be ready to adopt them ; it being our wish to go as far as possible towards the improvement of the land in Ireland, without dnturbing the great principles on which the right to property rests. (Hear.) But what we should most kook to is a greater mutual understanding be tween landlords and tenants; for voluntary agreements car ried out for the benefit of both are, after all, better means of proving the land thaw any legislative me aure that can improving the land thaw sny legislative me sure that can be proposed. (Hear, le ar.) As to the poor law of last tear, I do not think any reproach can be tha t cast on u ing paused long before we introduced measure . for It hav- wee nets miry for the preservation of life and the relief of the absolutely destitute. Attbe same time our experience in this country taught us that any poor law was so liable to abuse, that its tendencies were so naturally, not inevitably, to deaden industry, and to relieve that pauperism which without such a law might have been forced to exertion — that such abuses were connectedtwith every.poor law—that I cannot blame myself for having been long in introducing it in Ireland. I believe further experience of that bill will prove, not its absolute perfection, but the modificanons which it may require. Still, I believe, we were right in in tro ducing that bill. I think a poor law tends greatly to wards the civilisation of a country —(hear, hear) —and pre vents those habits of mendicity, akin to robbery, which prevail in countries where no such provision exists. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman thinks it desirable that the country should be divided into small farms, rather than have recourse, chiefly or mainly, to emigration. l ion agrho ee wwillith him as to small farms where y ou have a populat w apply their capital and industry in a continual and perse vering manner to the cultivation of those farms. I find that very small farms prevail in many of the moat flourishing countries of Europe, as in Tuscany and the Italian states, where they are in divisions of six or seven acts. But, to follow such a principle in Ireland a great change must take place, which cannot be made by law. but must depend much on the conduct of the landlords, the means of investing small capitols, and other circumstances. (Hear, hear.) For instance, it is not consistent with such a condition that th e r eee should be parties having plots of ground too 1 arge gard.n and too small for a farm. (Hear.) Such a system would be very injurious ; an.l in the west of I reland the occupation of plots of ground or growing potatoes has led to much of the misery of that portion of the country. (Hear, hear.) I think the measure to which the hon. gentlemng an has alluded as the only one which he has hopes of seei parliament pass this session will lead to the division of land into small properties, and to men of small capital getting into possession of terms. (Hear, hear.) But, axe-pt in the way that I have mentioned, of giving facilities for the sale of tates, and other measures of that kind, I do not think that q es uestion is one with which legislation Can directly deal. ( Hear. the ) The system of large farms prevailed in Northumberland and other counties of England, and the people arc accus- tamed to them. But the people of Ireland are accustomed I to a different state of things ; and you must. in dealing with I them, consult the habits of the pecple of that country. The ' hon. gentleman alluded to the bill which he introduced re- spreting tenant right. While I cannot allow that any per son by mere occupation of the land, at the will and pleasure of the landlord, or against his will and pleasurale, l has thereby acqu ired the right of occupying that land in time!, yet I do think the dummang rivi out process, p t rhapsof a great number on te a f I I small copiers by some s ry I winter's evening, p rac tic e leavin without the meant ot shelter or defence, is such a p that though there may be everything said as to the legal conduct of the land-' lora, and though the moral conduct of the tenant may have been faulty towards bim, it ith shows both cru ncum - elty an d want of good Whim, and is one w which i bent and necessary that the law should deal. (Hear, hear.) 1 was a party with my right hon. friend to the bringing in a bill on this subject, which provided that w foo hilst an tdhe sh lanelterd lord was left in possession of all his rights, d ', should he secured to the miserable outcasts, some of whom I mht he children or women After child birth or in fever, and for whom in such a state food and shelter were absolutely necessary for the preservation of life. (Hear, bear.) Ido not think see are chargeable with delay in passing that measure. It was read a first time on the 22nd of April, be fore the holidays, and on the Bth of May it was read a third time and passed this house. I tegret the view I took of the bill was not adopted by the House of Lords. It came back to this house with amendments to which we could not assent becauie, as it appears to me, the bill so amended would not make the la w better, but in some respects worse than it now is. We could not therefore agree to the amendments, and we sent it back. I trust the House of Lords will be induced to take the same view of the measure as this house, and that some remedy ma be afforded by law to meet theft afflicting eases. e (Hear, he y ar.) The hon. gentleman thinks it neces sary to have addition al members for Ireland. (Hear, hear.) Well, Ido not th there may not come a time when it may be desirable that additional members should be allowed to Ireland in place of some of those boroughs which this house may think it right to disfranchise. (Hear.) But the present is not the proper time for such a proposition, and I do not find that there has Item that attendance of the Irish members which would induce me to think that the legnlature would gain much in talent or industry by an addition of members from Ireland. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) The hon. gentleman says we ought to have a measure of regisuation, including the franchiee. We have already' introduced a bill on that subject, and there will be no luso( time if we proceed with that measure next cession. The hon. gentleman referred to the corporations.reld For seve ral years I contended that the corporations of lan should be placed on the same footing as those of England. I think there was a great deal in the objection urged on the mkt , r side that those bodies, instead of attending to municipal mid local affairs, would becLme violent political societies, and that, in some cases, they would rather add to any disaffection that might, prevail in the country than control or crush it by municipal or magisterial authority. There was greet weight in that objection, but I was then of opinion and lam still of opinion that municipal bodies elected by the people are • great bene fi t to t. em, and that it would produce just and well-founded discontent if we refused to Ireland that which was just in the case of the people of Eng lao.d and Scotland. I would have no obection to extend to people of Ireland the same municipal j it franchisee th. are the enjoyed by the people of England and Scotland. But there aproewsoenmewphoichwer; taehinkseeifieryb by doubtful corporationsth e i m n sel E v es ng , la a a n d d which I would hesitate to grant to Irish corporations. The hon. gentkman alluded to improved strand jury laws. That was a subject which occupied the attention of the late Lord Bessborough and Lord Clarendon. Butsuch has been the business in this house, that we were not ante with any chance of carrying it to introduce a measure on the subject. It is &subject of great importance, and I can conceive nothing more useful to Ireland than to have good local bodies in the country who would promote the making of roads and look to an honest and just e xpenditure of the rates. (Hear.) I think that larg e powers may e left to the grand juriee in that respect. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the waste lands scheme, I introduced a bill iven to propri on that subject loot session which gav e large compulsory power.. We a fterwards abandoned t hat bill, but we adde d 500.0001., the sum ge tors in Ireland for the improvement and reclamation of land. I think such • step was proter, before we introdueed any campulsory measure, and there were other objections of an economical nature Urgl d against any expenditure by the go vernment for the reclamation of waste land. The hon. gen tleman then alluded to assistance for the construction of railey*S. A messure was introduced on this subject by my noble friend (Lerd Morpeth), then Secretary tor Ireland, but it met with very little encouragement in this house LitecararLaWyseinprolreadd,awyhoitcehofwaamoanpepyribuvi,dyebayrtree on e of but it met with cos ide. stale oppesition. In order to intro , duce any measure of the , kind we ought to have • more flourishing state of the finances than we now possess. (Hear, and laughter.) With regard to measures for Ireland gene t-811y, they may be divided it to three classes — social, poli tical, and religious. With regard to measures of a pocial character, we have introduced and carried an amended poor law, by which a vast number of the people have been led during the present year. (Hear, hear.) We have like wise introduced • measure for the sale of incumloered estatis, which, though it may . not have any im mediate operation, will, I believe, in time be the found- , ation of great social changes. (Hear, hear.) I can conceive nothing more mischievous in a country than to have estates incumbered in such • manner that there is no real owner to look after the permanent interest of the tenant and the land. (Hear, hear.) With regard to political Questions, we have introdu ced a measure on the subject of the franchise which seemed to meet the wishes of many of those who connected with Ireland. Then there is then w reli n gious ichas u t qest e li o n —one of the utmost importance, and i, • h hon. gentleman said, I have taken a prominent part in this house—l allude to the position of the established ackno church in Irclsnd, a churc h to which only a minori , y of the people belong, but which has always been recognised and w ledged by the state since t h e reformation. No person can deny that that statelof things is unsatisfactory. No person can deny th.d the appropriation of the whole revenue which the state has always recognised as the revenue of the established church, by a church to which only a small portion of the people belongs, is an anomaly and a grievance. (Hear, hear.) But when I proceed from the acknowledeed grievance to the remedy that ought to be adopted, I find 'great and almost iusunerable difficulties in fi re way. (Ilear ) 1 propoaed a measure that a portion of the venue of the esuthlished church should be appropriated to the education of the people ef every claw and creed. If that measure had been adopted at the time I think it would have given great satisfaction, but being rejected, and rejected more than once, that position was entirely altered. The proof tes the tents felt enues it would he a great grievance that any portion rev and that such se of the church should be se p a rated from it, paration would lead to the abolition of the whole church. (Hear, hear.) On the other hand, there were those who considered that the established church was a grievance, and who when this measure was rejeetedcarried their views much further, and would not be satisfied with less than the entire abolition of the protestant church. Under these circum stances it would have been useless to attempt to carry that measure. For my own part, I believe that the protestants of Ireland, living in a country where church establishments are acknowledged, have • fair claim to possess a church es tablishment of their own---(hear, hear) —and that it should be recognised by the state. And Ido not believe, dimi nished as the property of that church has been by the of the aboli tion of church-rates , a nd forming about 1,00 0 , 000 population, that there is any great excess in the amount allowed to that church. But ere there not other reasons why we should not proceed to the abolition of that church ? I can understand those who are in favour of the voluntary system, who think that the principle adopted in America to the true one, demanding the instant abolition of the esta blished church in Ireland • but for myself I tales other views. I think a church establishment a wise institution for a country. (Hear, hear.) I believe that, where it is properly devoted to the purposes for which it is intended, it is • bless ng to the people where it exists. (Hear, hear.) At all events I see no advantage in doing with the rest of the tithes that which was done with the 25 per cent. (Hear.) Well then, having • church establishment fur the church of the minority, the question arises whether you will have by its side anot Ever her establishment for the church of the great majority ? y person must be of the difficulties which beset the question. (Hear, hear.) Every person must be aware of the difficulties which exist not only in the feelings of the people of Englund and Scotland—which in my opinion ought to be no ba r es the endowment of the Roman catholic church (h hear)it were thought desirable to adopt such a meastherure ; but every on e must also be aware that e are practical difficulties in the way, and that those practical dif ficultice ought not to beencountered without seeing that the people of Ireland generally ask for this endowment, and that it would he readily accepted. (Hear.) Now what have we heard in Ireland ? One of the most popular Roman catho lie prelates in Ireland bas denounced any attempt at endow ing his church, as an attempt to bribe the clergy from the cause of the people; and one of the first things I should ex pect to hear, if I declared myself in favour of such a proper sition, would be—not that 1 was endeavouring to do justice to the people. but that I was endeavouring to seduce the c lergy of the people from their flocks, and trying to bribe them to the service of the state. (Hear.) Sir, there is this elawitffiktucmcuhpltttoyt,:partly, ecclesiastical and partly religious, in the I co P u i n t: t di t. d g n it,o I, c i a b si ts g o o ; f Ireland , but tdt deprecate with a te which aty attemptunhapp e co m p e i . i w s t h e r e , n a h t he iemtei time eh orie p o l t a i r l t er f , or m t u h s e t c p c u p r e po; ar id , the time of the union. I believe it is a di ffi culty with unless the circumstances are favourable to the success of the measure. I think the excitement of great religious ily at M e r n . animosity, the giving occasion to attack the religion of a great portion of the population o these islands, the giving mica ion to excite one man against another on account of being of a different creed, would be a serious fault, if it would not be a crime, on the part of any government, unless they were to see that some great ultimate benefit would be I derived from it. (Hear hear.) The hon. gentleman has asked us to go now into ' the consideration of these various questions. The hon. gentleman, who spoke with great can dour, is mistaken if he thinks that it is any wis h of ours to ay those measures which we think calculated to redress the evils of Ireland. Nothing would redound more to the praise and credit of government than to be able to bring such measures, one after the other, under the consider mion of parliament. We have no such wish; but every person who has attended to the debates this session must be aware of the di ffi culties which exist in bringing any series of measures into effect. (Hear, hear.) We have been unable to proceed with the measure for the abolition of the navigation laws—a subject of the highest importance to the United Kingdom—owing to protracted debatesin this house. And I cannot promise that any alteration of the rules of the house will have any effect in changing the habit of long and protracted discussions, and of interweaving subj edite with another. (Hear, hear.) So long as that habit lreland must take her share with the rest of the United Kingdom indelay of measures which are of great importance. There was r o indieposition on the part of the government, or the majority of the house, to pails measures which may tend to the improvement of Ire land; and once persuaded that the Irish members were in favour o f any psrticular measures,they would be as readily considered and as speedily adopted as any submitted to the consideration of parliament. But whatever those measures may be, let me conclude as I began, by say ing that many of the grievances of Ireland are not of • recent date ; they were not caused by any enactments, or neglect of enactments, for the last few years. (Hear, bear.) They are principally of a social character; but there are some also political and religious of long standing, which cannot easily or speedily be redressed. I trust that want of speedy and easy redress will not be imputed to us as a fault, er to the part of the parliament of the United KMg rli- dom any more than it would be to a special paa ment in Ireland. I believe we have sone advantages over a parliament sitting in Ireland for the redness of grievances particularly affecting her, because we must always recollect that in Ireland there is not one real undisputed path, which, in the opinion of the majority of the represen tatives for Ireland, would lead to her prosperity and content. (Hear, hear.) I believe that we, who are less mingled in her political and religious parties, are useful in smoothing asperities that would otherwise arise. (Hear, hear.) All, however, that I can now do, is to ask the house not to as sent to the impossible task laid before us by the hon. gentle man, but to proceed calmly and gradually to the amendment of any grievances that affect the people of Ireland. (Hear, h ,ar.) I believe all to be persuaded that it is by the peace able method of discussion, and by parliamentary refire a that these grievances are to be treated—(hear, hear)—that the resor to arms and rebellion suet only tend to ag gravate the misfortunes of Ireland—(hear ' hear)— that the resources of Ireland, great as they are, would speedily be squandered and dissipated in civil warfare —(bear, hear)—and that we must look to the maintenance of authority and law to enable the industrious and peaceable in that country, under this free constitution, to advance to happiness and prosperity. (Hear, hear.) Mr. H. A. HERBERT said he would support the motion, because he would not lead any . one to suppose that he was satisfied with the progress of legislation for Ireland. (Hear, hear.) lie begged to remicd the noble lord that the Irish members were unsnimous with respect to the poor law, but their application to government had been refused. With regard to the church, he would only observe that he regret ted the noble lord did not carry out, as a minister, the prin ciple which he proclaimed in opposition in 1841, namely, that the Roman catholic church in Ireland ought to be placed on a footing of equality with the protestant church, and that he would follow out that principle in all its con sequences. He was aware of the practical difficulties in the way of a solution of this question, but till they had a minister bold enough to grapple with them they would legislate h in for Ireland in vain. (Hear, hear.) Ile did not tk that the evils of Ireland were entirely owing t i defective legislation. Much of them was to be attributed tote he want of steady industrious habits in the people and to the ystem o f agitatioa which prev ailed for }earn, under which it was 2 d imposs ibl e that any country c ould p ros p er. (Hear, hear) I L M r . FAGAN attributed th e evils of Ireland to defective and vicious legislation• i nto the e Mr. MONSELL wo uld not g o question whether the moment sel e c ted for brin g ing forward this metien was a the most judicious that could have been selected—(hear)— I but as th e motion was b e f o re the t o ne-, with the fee ling he looked ini one, p .N o n n tdoi t aie e ms e t t,oh q u.e u rch batonz e t wki i ic o iei n hz :iod. ~0 t hti sr t h iiem e gt had of the miserable condition of Ireland, he could not do e I other wisei t.ldhouse rThe B. parliament than sgßro s . 1 t u t p .N p a e t e t , it, beganl good measures tor Ireland, and yet all it hail achieved w as a coercive hill, and another fur the suspension of the 11 .Iscas Corpus Act. It WWI a remarkable tact, t ha t on the very cm I on which they were now debat ing, the ui of Commix& was engaged, 45 years ago, in suemeneling t.io i f ate ea Corp s , Act in Ireland. An Hehat muchn done &trine tnese le . years? Nothing. very feared that the peoele of firro;nl entdhewimereperriiaglhptarwliham"enthte. they He did not mean the Young Ireland party, but those fairly enitled to rave 11 the I • - Pe ople. The milk-and-water proposals af the noble lord would never satisfy the nation. Row did it happen, aster 600 years of dominion over Ir. land, that the was sell in a state of sueethered war ? It wee said that Irish grievances were not remedied, because she never came before the parliament in a proper manner. Was Ireland, then, always to be an humble suppliant for justice ? Every concession that had been made to Ireland had been extorted by fear. Nothing had ever been done to arouse the gratitude of Ireland. What had been the game of Engtand towards the Rennin mahnlies there? In 1799 England cajoled them. In 1801 Eugland deceived them. In 1803 they were discarded. What was the language of the right hon. barmet the member for Tam. worth ne 1829 ? " Samething must be done." What we' the language of the preterit premier in 1844 ? " Ireland is occupied and not governed." So it is now under the noble l or d. Was no' Ireland as truly occupied and n e t in 1818 as in 1844 ? Re was sick and tired of such an lathe. eile government, the end of which would seem to he either civil war or the repeal ()tithe union. Tne noble lord (LordJ. Russell) had, in his speech that . vening, seemed to soy that there was only one party to whom Irelann presented an iasuperable difficulty. Ireland was the bugbear of the right hon. baronet, and nothing war to be done until the noble lord was seated on the treasury bench. The Irish were led to look upon the noble lord as &sewed St. Patrick. The poor Peeale of Ireland had hardly expected to find the noble lord in the situation of the " Bottle Conjuror." They expected the noble lord to fulfil his promises. They were enraged to find that instead of creeping into his bottle he had only crept into office. The noble lord ejected the right hon. baronet on the Coercion Bill, and all present would doubtless remember the promises made by the then eninis• er in posse, and be able to compare theta with the per:ormences of the minnter in me. Tne people of Irelsad,however,had long memorienand they looked for the completion ot the promise a held outhy the noble lord. Oa the 15th June,lBl6, the noble lord taunted the right lion. baronet with Laving brought in a coercion bill, unac companied by any ameliorative measures. What had been the course dl the noble lord and his colleagues ? He had passed twe coercive bills mo a Habeas Corpus Suspension Act during the present session. And what did he hold out new ? The Chancellor of the Exchequer talked of " self reliance," and the noble lord reeorernewled them to look forward to tranquillity and onward progress, as the only amelioraeom to be expected. But were the se the proper completion tf the promises made by the present government ? The mem ber of the noble lord's ministry had volunteered a pledge to place the Lists people on an equality, as between the catholic mid the protestant churches. But this was when they were out of office. He would not ray one word against the pro testant clergymen in Irelan. The reresentatives of Ireland had been told that their apath p y was the rea son why nothing Lad. been done towards plat* the Reman catholic and protestant churches in Ire land on a more equal footing. This question was the cause is of all the difficulties and dcod that preailed in Ireland, and until the canker was cut away from v the root they would never cease. There never had been witneesed in any country such a system as that which had prevailed in Ireland with respect to the protestant crutch. There were twelve protestant bishops kept up in that country en dowed with little short of 70,00 0 /. a year,. and all the while it wee forgotten that there was such a thing existing in Ire land as a population of 8,000,000 Roman cetholies. It was true that catholic priests were allowed to otiviate as chap lains in gaols, but they were 'eft to wring tbe pittance neeen eery for their support from the poorest oottiers. When the noble lord talked at "gradual progress" in Ireland, what did he mean to do with the church establishment there? If he (Mr. B. Osborne) did not agree in what the honourable member for Manchester had said, it was because he did not think the plan was ripe for execution. The defence made by the magnate' and bishops of the Irieh church for their large benefices and incomes was, that if the whole sum received by them were spread over the c hurch there, not a single clergyman would receive more than 2001. a year. That was true, but the country had a right to inquire whether protestant clergymen were wanted in Ireland. And when the boo. member for Limerick asserted that the people of England were not prepared to do away with the Irish church, he would tell him that he (Mr. B. Osborne) was ready to go to the hustings on th it questime quite sure that the electors of Middlesex could nut turn hem out upon it. The noble lord at the bead of the Woods and Forests, when secretary for Ireland, had defined the mese tent church there to he a mass of livings without muted souls, and a large a mount of pay without any work, and the hon. member for Manchester had only borrowed the noble lord's thunder in saying what he did. on a former evening ow this subject. How had the Roman catholics been t r usted by the government in res p ect to grants of public money ? By a return which he held in his hand, he hued that irons the year 1800 to 1812, the protestant chinch in Ireland had received from the public purse, the sum of 2,075,4601. The protestant dissenters in Ireland bad to. ceived 1,019,0001. during that periol ; whilst the Roam catholic' had received 30.1,6111. And this was what they called. putting all religious creeds on an equality. It was idle to talk of protestant ascendancy having been put down in Ireland. The shadow was removed; the substance still remained. By the same return he found that there were 41 protestant benefices in ,Ireland in which not a protestant was to be found ; there were 99 in which there were lea this 20 protestants iii eace ; and there were 124 benefices is which the number of protestants ranged from 20 t o 50, but did. not exceed the latter amou chnt. It su a state of things had been observed by th e people of England tar prevail in any other nation of Europe there woul. have been only one opinion as to its injustice sad impolicy ; hut they were familiarised to its existence in Ire land and forgot its wickedness. He might he asked whet hs proposed to substitute for the present state of the Irish church. He woued answer, that if the government desired to work a cure, and do real good in Ireland. th-y would alter the present territorial system of the protestant church to the congregational system. The ter:iteni .1 test/mem celled out the whole bind in districts, acd g ave cl. maim and bishops to them, whether they contained any protestant' or none. Such a system might be very applicable to a country where there was only one prevailing religion; Wit could not be Girl) , enforced amongst a people retiree reliette was opposed to that so ma arced. The congregetioeal system that paid each clergyman according to the wants ot the die trict, was the only proper mode of m aintaining the Pee teatant religion in Ireland. Strange to say, that systen had been proposed by a member of the reflll h onou rable baronet's (Sir R. Peens) former govern moa t. When the noble lord below him (elorreth) proposed in the year 1835 to sequester all the livings in Ire land where there were not fifty protestants to be found' Mr. Biaghara Baring, the present Lord Ashburton, Ple posed to have recourse to the congregation) evsteco , and that propo.itien was received by the hon, member for Moe trete with satisfaction, and by the noble lord (J. Rasa with praise ; only, said the noble lord. " the time has not 111 arrived for it to be carried into practice." Well, they was now arrived at the year 1811, and yet, ace r i ng to fto no ble lord, the time had n ot arrived. But he (Mr. . Bier B. OP borne) would tell the n oble lord that bMr ad bun Baring's plan been put in practice in 1835, die" would have been perfect contentment existing throughod Ireland on this subject at the present time. He would pee pose also, that the ecclesiastical tenths, together with all mire nog rent-charges in Ireland, should be disposed of, reset se life interests, and the proceeds invested in the funds, to td.' etitute the sources of endowment of the ministers of the protestant church there. The glebes he would c need he money in tee same way, and the lands of the bishop sa e , arc hb is hops he would also sell, reserving all existing 0 interests, and invest the preceeds in the funds, as ahead, stated. He saw no difficulty whatever in carrying tie this plan, whatever the noble lord might say to t the cont qu ri ate There was one thing more wanted to effect pefect en between the Roman catholic and the protestant—that ell the removal of the Irish bishmies from the House of Leel A change in this respect would not only lie ueefel as me, to during eq uality, but it would a fford an opportunity e reducing the incomes of the Irish episcopal Ind litarey. ( The surplus revenues of the Irish church he would spree priate as Lord Melbaurne proposed in 1835, ich would vizta., swans, psy tha,, ov er to the consolidated fund, whke ground for jealousy. Certain it was that until this qua* of the Irish church urn settled they could. not hope tor pee manent tranquillity lreland. This was the opicionne. pressed by 29 members of the present government, incled9e. eight cabinet ' s nisters, ex re p osed by their votes or s pell on Mr. Wardmotion, in 1843 and 1844. (Besti r ; present state of the University of Dublin was another , e . ot complaint. There could be no equality in Irelan nen! Roman catholic were excluded from fellows and the Ott honourssettlement of of that universitya t t helridi c church .. , ch (Rear.) . tranquillised, he uid not mean to say that that alone 1 . ,0 1 ! Encumbered sufficient. No patchwork system of leg..slation wooee : at countr It IFILS no use coming down line!: Estates Bill, which as now altered woieteen question Ail Although work, and expect that the difficulties of governing would be solved. (Rear.) Such patchwork legisiatenien merely furnishing an argument for repeal. Anuther subll of great importance was that referred to in the ta d , 1845—the improvement of the condition of the i er; classes, and the development of the resources Viandflelaee this time one-third of the population of Ire ye" T ie lutely paupers. He admitted the y had had peee, for Ireland, and he lamented such a law .20,;',7,i passed a century ago ; but there was one p Ant shotef;7 l ,, been thought of, viz., the capacity of the coortrY2, 0 tion to its property, to bear a poor law : er_ e a d i ca w .l ith d o soi ut; how far the property of the country could bear te e 7„ - ,e of its poverty i Leokiner at the whole rateabisseel'd Ireland, and comparing it with the poverty, it.w___°,?l,,n, that a poor-law and nothing lee 11._ WWI mere petelweo;o74 lotion. What were they to do with 2,soenee of 9.°... _ a or people out of work, out of a population ot 5,000,00, ...,, majority of the young men of the middle and uepe e nT, without professions ? The only way of meetill l ig, by some such plan as that advoCated by o wn . _'..,,,0. Idoletworth a systematic scheme ol _,,. I t i. ■