The Express. — London, England, 1847-12-03 00:00:00

t----------- bingo; it would be for their lordehipeincessmittee to inquire into this point, and then to determine whether and how for it would be advisable to modify the mower'. He was quite satisfied that the inquiry, if granted, would have the mat awful results. He had not interned from anything that fell en a former night from the noble lord opposite (Stanley) 1 who was ons tittle framers of the act of 1841, that he desired to foster this child of lie longer than should be fair and un eaten' with public expediency. He (Lord Lansdowne) had only to add that perhaps he might have himself preferred the postponement of the inquiry until a period when, the il wisis having mauled, men's minds had become more ava ed on the subject; but u it was considered desirable to proceed with the committee at once, he would beg to mom that a select committee be appointed to inquire into the causes of the recent commercial distress, and how far it has been effected by the laws for regulating the issue of bank notes payable on demand. Lord STANLEY said there were portions of the noble marquis's speech in which he quite concurred, and he quite concurred, further, in the proposition that, as a committee of the House of Commons was about to inquire into this very large and complicated question, it was fatal; that •cona mittee et their lordships should simultaneously prosecute the stuns ilai . ry. But he must at the same time express his de dried *mos that this was not the sole course which her Majesty's goverament were in duty bound to pursue. (Hear, bear.) Among the causes put prominentle , forward for the meetiog of parliament at this very unusual period was one that went home to the feelings of every man—the intensity, namely, of that commercial distress which he could not, with the noble marquis, call recent—(bear, bear)—but which, in the mare accurate buiguag.e of her Majesty's speech he must deli te "the distress which has for some time pre ' among the commercial classes of this country?' (Hear, hear.) This was a cause which not only justified but rendered absolutely essential the immediate calling together of parliament; and most cer tainly sot one of their lordatipe however great the personal inconvenience he might derive &in being summoned to his place in parliament at this premature period, but would estimate this inconvenience at a hair's weight—if he found that the mumbling of parliament brought with it some pal liative dour existing commercial sufferings. (Hear.) Under with eimisasteaces, then, what at lent might have bee. ex pected at the hands of government? If this distress—the intensity of which. let him remark, the noble marquis had rather ander than over stated—(hear, hear)—were the cause why parliament was thus early mumbled, then be would contend that the members of both houses had a right to expect that government should be prepared to come tor ward, not with a remedy, for that was beyond the power of legislation, but with some proposition for palliating the distress. (Hear, hear.) How stood the case? After sitting fourteen days they were at length told by the noble marquis that, with reference to the cause of the distress, he was at present . prepared with no observations ; that, as to any remedy or palliative of the distress, neither be nor his col leagues had any suggestion to make ; that they asked the berme to grant them a committee of inquiry for their guid ance ; end that as to opinions of their own they had none to offer—("Hear, hear," from Earl Grey.) For the noble marquis distinctly told their lordships that as to the influence of the Bank Charter Act of 1844 upon the commercial distress of the country he would expend, and had, indeed, formed no opinion. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—Not as to its influence upon the distress of the past three or four menthe. Lord STANLEY—Why it was precisely that distress of the last three or four months that bad c.lled parliament together at this unusually early period, and which formed the immediate occasion for the inquiry now sought. For himself, he (Lord Stanley) should be sorry to have it understood as his opinion that the principle of the Bank Charter Act of 1844 had been productive of the rend die- I trem. He had no desire to shrink from say no. sponebility attaching to him as a member of that govern ment under whose administration that measure became law. and he would at the same time remind the noble ream* that several members of the present government, sadirons them prominently the present Chancellor of the Exchwiser, then acting as chairman of the committee on banks of last,, cor dially concurred in the principle of the measure. (Emu.) But consistently with en entire adherence to the principle of the act of 1844, as to the accuracy of which principle inquiry had been exhausted, it was open to him to assent to en inquiry whether the restrictions imposed by the act were unwise in theonelres or calculated in any way to fetter the discretion of the Bank in the exercise of its functions. This was the point, and the sole point, to which, as ho conceived, the attention of the committee would be directed, in reference' ' to the influence of the Bank Charter of 1844 upon the late crisis. The question would be whether, with a adios in their coffer+, and the expectation of further supplies towing in from abroad, the Bank directors were not injuriously re stricted by the act of 1944 from affording accommodation to commerce. (Hear, hear.) Upon this point the noble mar quis professed himself unproaded with an opinion, though the letter of Oct. 25 to the Bank directors would seem to I indicate an opinion, and a pretty decided opinion, to have been formed on the subject by the government. (Hear, I bear.) The course directed by that letter, and which might well have been adopted earlier—(hear, bear)—was a distinct violation, a distinct condemnation, of the act of 1844, in that feature of it which had been most insisted upon, but which the government had thus declared could not, in their judgment, be maintained in operation under all cir cumstances. The act of the government, in fact, had re moved the very keystone of that beautifully symmetrical bridge to which Mr. Rakes Currie, in the debate on the measure, had likened it. He had said just now that hon. gentlemen bad underrated the amount of commercial dis tress, and that he thought their earlier interference would have prevented much difficulty. He held is hie hand a list of mercantile houses which bad actually become insolvent between July and November. The number amounted to 106. From the list was excluded all houses which bed en tered into private compositions with creditors—all Wives on the Stock Exchange, which had been very numerous-- all houses what accounts:were not ectually under inspection —and that included one firm whose liabilities:amounted to millions : it also excluded all foreign honer., and it omitted as insignificant ell houses whose li abilities did not amount to 20,0001. Now what were the results ? In July there were 2 failures amounting to £210,000. August „ IG .. 2,369,000. September „ 26 w 6,529,000. October „ 35 6,840,000. In all, from July to the periol at which her Mejesty's government thought fit to interfere, there had been failures of 79 houses involving liabilities to the amount of 15,969,0001. (Hear, hear.) Now, ho concurred with t'...e noble marquis, that it was impossible for any legislature or for any govern ment to have prevented the distresses which had occurred from failures of agricultural products, or from tub specula tion, but it was impossible hut that among the great houses which had fallen from July to November there must have been some which a more timely interference would have saved, and which being' saved themselves might have Ir . vented the ruin of many others dependent upon them. (Hear.) !He had stated the' liabilities of those which had died. That was but a small part, however, of the distress which the panic had occasioned. Their lordships knew the loss of those which had gone, but they knew nothing of the losses of houses that still stood, the extent of whose diffi culties made it in many cases doubtful from day to day whether they could carry on their business, though it wee certain that whether they carried it on or no, so immense a contrection of all their transactions must take place as greatly to cripple any of the firms with which they had connexion. And here he must observe that her Majesty's government thought right upon the present occasion to use the word "recent," as applicable to the commercial distress. Now, the use of that word implied that the distress had passed by, and though the Bank of England might he in a better con dittos than it was, yet so far from the distress having passed by, he should be glad to find himself mistaken in his appre hension that the worst and severest pressure was yet to come. As yet Shp , had no accounts from India of a date subsequent to the snivel of the news of the great metropolitan failures ; and if he was to believe all the accounts he heard, three months would not elapse without accounts front Cskratta of great embarrassments and disasters occasioned by the receiptof the intelligence. From this time to January, too, the merchant, of London and of Yeadiester would be receiving back from ltdia bills drawn upset the houses in England that had failed. The effects of the pie, moreover, had as yet scarcely reached the mar nonebent, the retail trades man, and still less the laborer dispendont oa throe whoa capital was now so rim* dellailiel. It was hie /ear that they would suet hal a higeprepeatim of these Snows out of employment, in whisk ease groat end tainsabsi distress wee to be !carted. The whim mangate had mid that the inquiry into which be invited them is enter would be a narrow one. Narrow ! what, when all theme paints were to be inquired into ; when the saltkint was the ethet of the recent com mercial paaio—the part whirl the Bank Charter Act had had in bringing it about—the influences of railway speculation and of aye:trading the conduct of the bank—the results of a free trade policy! Narrow ! Why, if this inquiry was narrow, he should wish to know what the noble marquis would con sider extensive ? So far from the inquiry bff taarnew, it was his opinion that, however long the eride might l est, however protracted it might still prove, yet that It wield be over long before this onandnee would be is a peaks to snake a report or events ear a entigeetkm. Rem the tone of the noble marrde, faidead, ho wry almost led to inhr that as far es the goverment wen concerned the of the committee would be a wry entimprtant one. would state that they had been sorry to hear of of the S ide the distress and of its wide-weal rantilleathme, but that nothing, in their opinion, world bare prevented the indic tion of a bad harvest or the ill OM, of over-emdleg, and that as for the act of 1844, aoldai bid his perm& Nab* it. That appeared, as hr se the geveroment west, to be likely to be the result of their usemittee of inquiry. One word before he sat down as to a matterrequiring explanation. The noble marquis had said, in thecourse of the evening, thee no legislation could make up for the loss in the supply of the agricultural produce of the country, which had lei to the necemity of importing foreign . corn. He (Lord Stanley) declined in that opinion. An importation of foreign corn to the value of 33 millions, for the purpose of making geed the supply which had failed us in oar own production, was a loss of national capital which could not fail to cause no great embarrassment. But the noble marquis misunderstood him, if he supposed that he (Lord Stanley) attributed to free trade the large importation in corn which had taken place during the last two years. On the contrary, he had mid that whether they ha d tree trade or not the importation mast have taken place ; but the argument he maintained was this, that whereas these who advocated free trade pro dded from the importation a large export of manufactures sad eonniquent snit national prosperity, he maintained iket *ON Wynn bed arisen without reference to free trade. The liege amide mkt that parliament could not guard =Ohio dimil of speculation . He (Lord Stanley) that;speak of corn, let him ask by whose eel and t wit ing it that the rpeculation in earn orus trat e ed ge r i rt men tlis her Majesty's government, be most . 4 ; were not clear. They held oat to our merchants and shi ownershat, let them adigsb gii the WCfia_ through,the d _ aaea not Bad tons nosegla for the pod* Of Sillnid rr that lf they weld lad eon enough they would sot be able to find gMaasls hang ft ben. Why, they had absolutely sus• iles awned= laws in order to tempt" this rash and egoeulaties"—in order to invit. all the world to k vowels Is ear shores Wien silk grain of every mid= Way, was ft not too mach to turn round on us leer lids, and say tint it is inspoesible to guard against im =eat scsauladass 1 (Opposition chows.) But he need es their paknee no further. Her Majesty's go masoseat had then It right that this Important question iteseld be thsem Mealy oa the rni. Wm a a matter for Istaky. He (L eiZ thought it was desk seem is have to parha mait • Ike thee ads. had, bewayer, emit hem mg enit elms Having dose so, they mast, of semis, Me the mennereeienalla. He (Lod Stanley) gave as swim sow, bat the geeenstast having announced that thleiggelameat a/thin:madam was the eel, measure they Z e tise si apined to repose to pediment on this all important thq MS sot be surge= if hout other quarter! sit SOO at Mal by the ties of Mehl duty, um posed meesiree eaggeded sedated mete directl y y Ite meet es 111111=Nee of the trairgessy. (The noble lord reams. ble met mid mush oppeeiths sheeriag.) had 011 T esemoseed by rigger be the noble lord's Inquiry, w Whg, if the govensemett bad sea measure to pro pose, they lesi sought a neseseiry he WI the pediment together ?" If the noble lord had soneshed her Msesety's speech at the commencement of the 'oemiw, he would have Mond in it that the government , though tiny saw no remedy that they could advantageously suggest, still had ample reasons for summoning the partiament. The suffering had proceeded from measures over which they had no control, and the consequences of which it was utterly impassible for them to avert. But the government had taken a measure which might have led to a violation of the law, and no government had any right to take a measure of that kind without giving parliament the earliest opportunity of expressing its judgment. No act of indemnity, indeed, was necessary, but such measures as the government thought necessary to be introduced not only were , prepared, but they absolutely had already submitted them to parliament. If the noble lord was himself right as to the cause of commercial dinner, it was clear , there was no measure more important as a mesas of pre. venting the continuance of the distress than some bill which postponed fora season all demands consequent upon railway transactions. The government had submitted to parlia ment a bill with that very view, and had proposed to go as far as it was possible to go consistently with justice sad a respect for existing contracts. But the noble load es= plained that no opinion had been expressed by the gears ment relative to the act of 1844. That accusation was hardly well deserved. The noble marquis (Lansdowne l i had said distinctly that, in his °Malan, the distress was not attributable to the act of 1844, and in that view he (Earl Grey) was glad to find that the noble lord opposite entirely concurred with him. The government were not, of course, prepared to maintain that the existing arrangementa under ' the act of 1844 were perfect ; but when the 'table lord mid that that act must be faulty because government had par• mined is infringement, he (Earl Grey) was at ems p pared to express his dissent from any such view. As had been well said in 1844, whilst it might be &Seek to define where they might depart from the principle estaldishml by the act, yet, extraordinary circumstances might arise from time to time which would be best dealt with at the discre tion of government. lie (Earl Grey), too, dissented from the view of the noble lord that the adoption of the govern mast measure of relief at all necessarily Implied that it should have been done earlier. On the contrary, he (Earl Grey) thought that it should be deferred until the last mo• meat. The noble lord referred to the Fat of failures. No one lamented them more than he did. The calamities were, no doubt, very sad, and almost unparalleled. But, at theism time, it was the opinion of the well•informed that the houses which bad failed, whether from imprudence or mis fortune, were not really solvent—that waistlines might have maintained them for a time, but that ultimately their failure was inevitable. That was the state of things in the earlier period of the panic. At the end of October, however, all ac counts showed that though these failures had not then ex tended to solvent housee, yet that these would fail if some measures were not taken by the government. The panic was then so serious that many were unable to real ise money to meet their immediate demands. There was a desire among the bankers and the public to retain the money they happened to poems, and to get in all their outstanding debts. It was obvious that the whole system of our commercial distress proceeded in an assumption that there would be no simultaneous cell for money. There was sucks call. The government were told that if an assurance were given that money might be had even at a very high rate of interest, that would bring into circulation money that bad formerly been withheld. Such an opinion was expressed to the government from quarters deserving the highest consideration: the government be lieved it to be well founded ; they acted upon it, and he (Earl Grey) must say that he thought the result proved that they had not been mistaken. The noble lord said that this was a question they ought not to turn loose for the consider. ation of a committee, but that, on the contrary, they ought to have made some definite proposal with respect to the set of 1944. Certainly, if the government had believed that any alteration of the act of 1844 was calculated to check the com- I mercial distress, be (Earl Grey) agreed that they ought to have done some. ping ; but their opinion was the reverse ; their opi nion was, that though that act might require alteration in some parts, yet that its main principles are undoubtedly i sound, and that to teach the commercial community to , look for relief to what was called " relaxation of the cur rency," would be to teach them in fact to look to a deception. It was not te devise any remedy of that kind that the govern ment now asked for the appointment of a committee. What they desired was to see if the act of 1844 was in its details susceptible of improvement. The noble lord intimated an opinion that the commercial distress of the country had not panel by. He (Earl Grey) wished be could take a dif ferent view. He was bound, however, to admit that it seemed to him that of the many causes productive of dis tress there were several still in operation, and that they must look forward to still further depression. But, however gloomy the immediate ap?earances might be, there was no thing in the state of the country which ought to discourage ' us, or cause us to fear that at some earlier or more remote period the country would not, by its inherent vigour and energy, emerge from all its difficulties, and rise to prosperity I even greater than before. (Cheers.) Various causes had been advirted to for the distress, but amongst others , I the noble lord had omitted to mention the high ex penditure, arising from a high price of provisions, which I had affected every family, from the highest to the lowest, in the land, during the past twelve months. When they remembered that for some time last season wheat was at 80s., 905., 1001., and even 120 s. per quarter, they might find some ground for considering that an impel , tent element of the distress had been omitted from the uohle I lord's catalogue. When they coneidered how this had added to the expenditure of every family in the country, and ape , cially of the working classes, and the enormous drain from 1 railway and other causes, they would net feel so at difficulties which had been experienced. Bat they hal jut had a very good harvest, and if blessed with a romans of favourable seasons, the greatest of all drains, ling= from a scarcity of corn, would be at an end. And railways undoubtedly formed a great drain at that aomeat, yet it must be remembered that when constructed they would add incalculably to the national wealth. Oa this account, and having regard to the =gm= prospects as regarded the supply of cotton from Am rip, he thought that at no distant day this would again attain her wonted prosperity. His nob= said that the expense of the last year, and the distills 1111111* stoned by the large imports of corn, went far to etiongthin the arguments of those who had inn opposed te the repel of the corn-laws. Now, be must say that his (Earl Grey's) opinion was precisely the revere. lie could not conceive a combination of circumstances which would more completely confirm the soundness of all the arguments of those wise bad advocated a free importation of foreign corn. In the first plea, he would ask their lordships to consider what must have been the sufferings of the population if this im portation had not taken place ? His noble friend then went on to say that it had formerly been awned that if they im ported large quantities of corn then would be • large increase in the exports to pay for it. It was perfectly true that the exports had fallen off : a fact tally ac counted for by the diversion of a large portion of the capital of this country to railways, by the deficiency In the cotton crop, and by various other causes. In point of es, however, in the ease of thine countries from whisk the largest supplies of corn were obtained, there had been an increase in the amount of exports. (Hear, hear.) In the three quitters ending October, 1848, the exports to Aar. rice amounted to 4,080,0001. ; while, within the coma period in 1947, they amounted to 8,291.0001. (Hear, hear.) But, beyond thet, it was notorious that one effect of the large demands of corn from America had been to imam the °as sumption of British manufactured goods in the Hid= States he an extent which could hardly have been angented. The American Airmen, malting increased profits, bail Imeresil their expenditure, and a considerable portion of the bemuses had been applied in the purchase of British USSUUbleWill• A similar result had been witnessed in the Turkish empire and in Brasil, in the latter case owing of comet te the in creased import of sugar. It roust not be forgellon, when this question was under consideration, that &large preposeha of our exports was necessarily affected by the ishium whit prevailed in Europe generally. (Hear, hear.) niggled= of the cantons with which we principally desk wee ahead as severely affected by the high price of hid as ear own : It was Impossible that the inhabitants ri Holland, Germany, and France, who wen paying extenegist pdas for their food, could consume the customary um= of lie tialt manufactures. But the noble lord went on to seir-11 the corn speculations had been inordinate, who we. te blame for it but her Majesty's government ? He (Bari Grey) was not aware that those speculation were inordinate— (hear, bear) ; he very mach doubted whether they had ex ceeded what prudence required. No doubt some individuals had incurred heavy loam; but for the interest of the country the importations had not been exoeseive. For some weeks before the harvest the weather was fine to a degree which was almost unexampled ; and the harvest, which every one thought would be late, proved, on the contrary, early. Had the harvest been three or four weeks later than usual, there would not have been a angle grain of own in the country to spare. (Hear, bear.) He believed that, as a whole, the operations of the British merchants in the corn trade, during the last year, ware marked by a degree of foresight, which was not lee, remarkable than the energy and activity displayed in them—an energy and an activity which, under providence, had been the means of saving the country from the horrors of famine, end which showed with how much justice her Hajesty'sgovernment had, in the early part of last mission, refused to interfere with the enterprise of , the private trader by sending ship to America for corn. But even if the corn speculations had been inordinate, he might still contend that the government bad not encouraged them. All that they had done was to ask parliament to suspend the navigation laws and the duty established by the act of 1846; and could any one doubt that both thoso_ouspoorsioso wore asomary t He, for ono, felt that if they had failed to protium what they hod due, they would have beet lets_ fly anworthy of their pollee. espeded the question be the house, he thegehi g falba Man dated by his noble friend near hire, h ess= s. Sffillim ' that the house should appoint the prepared ie Lord BROUGHAM said that, althesA the "wkesl a free trade might be excluded from that Esseeelea, H =aid not be shut out from the deliberations of sjse ounnemee which they were about to appoint. Into the =V o l t quire s the whole question would naturally be The inquiry would also embrace those railway mtandeflons w ei r ), had absorbed so large a portion of the mtal of the country, and the evils of which might justly be imputed, in a great degree, to the legislature itself. He would much rather provide for the present than scan the put ; yet be could not help saying that Belem were any parties in the legislate» whose consciences were free from Diann upon that question, it was the noble duke then sitting at the table (the Duke of Wellington), and himself (Lord Brougham). Another subject which would be taken op war that of the usury laws, the state of which was very in jurious to the landed interest, in consequence of the partial repeal of same enactments, and the retention of others. Unless something were speedily done to improve those laws there was the prospect, if not of great agricultural distress, at least of landowners' unbarreasment. The Duke of GRAFTON was of opinion that the only hope for the country lay in an enlargement of the currency. Lord ASHBURTON could not agree with his noble and learned friend, that it would be advisable to postpone the committee of their lordship.' house till the committee of the other house made their report. The danger was too imminent to allow them to wait for the result of another committee, whose proceedings might last, from the extent of the inquiry before them, as long u the siege of Troy. If be taw reason to adopt such a course, he should feel himself at liberty to move that the cause—what he wandered the CAW —of the recent preemie, should be done away with. He did not think that the noble marquis opposite would have dwelt so much on the lane importation of corn which had taken place in the present year, if he could have discovered any better reasons to account for the recent rerun. Un. doubtedly, a great deal of corn had been imported, but he was not one of those who attributed the pressure on the money market to that cense. He did not think that an ex penditure of 33,000,0001. for corn during 18 months was sufficient to account for it. He was willing to admit that no inference could be drawn as to the general policy of the re peal of the corn law from what paned. But they had been told that the old law occasioned great fluctuations in price, and that the effects of its repeal would be to do away with those fluctuations. Now, the experience of the prevent year proved that they had rester fluctuations under the recent change than at any former period, for within a short time the price of corn fluctuated between 40s. and 120 i. (Hear.) Another benefit which was predicted from the alteration of the law was, that it would put an end to gambling, whereas the truth was, that under the recent changes there had been more gambling in ours, and consequently more ruin, than at any former period. (Hear, bear.) The noble marquis as cribed to the visitation of Providence the &millet which bad befallen them. Be (lord Ashburton) maintained that the famine had not absorb/al that amount of capital which it was supposed to have absorbed. The extent of that evil was, that it reversed the balance of trade between them and the United States, and thereby caused an export of suede and a reduction of it in the coffers of the Bank. He maintained that the act of 1844 aggravated all the other causes of the pressure they bad been suffering under. The famine was a heavy pressure, particularly on the poorer classes, but it was a mistake to suppose that it was • cause, or even a very great aggravation of the currency difficulty. The noble marquis said that the causes of the evil were be yond the reach of parliament. Oise of those causes had been ascribed to the large sums absorbed in railway speculation. Was not that a subject within the control of parliament (Hear, bear.) Had he not himself warned the house, though his warnings had been unattended to, of the dangerous effects of those enormous speculations? (Heer,'lnar.) The noble lord, who had lately been appointed to the head of the government of India, entertained the same views with him self, and he drew up a kind of sale for the purpose of limit ing the total amount of railway expenditure. No doubt railways were a useful enterprise if they were not carried on beyond what the capital of the country would safely war rant Had not parliament also interfered with the West India interest ? (Hear, hear.) And noble lords opposite were responsible for the evils which had been caused by that interference. What was the condition of the West Indies now ? Why, they were In such a condition that every packet brought accounts of proprietors sending back the drafts of their own agent*, which had been drawn for the purpose of paying the ordinary expenses of their estates. It was not true, then, that thou were the visitations of Providence, and that a great part of the evil had not been caused by their own fault (Hear, bear.) Then it was said that there had been a great deal of over trading, particularly by houses connected with the India trade. Now, the India trade was carried on in this way, end it was so carried on for at least half a century. He did not mean to may that the system was a good one, but he wished to date the fact. It was the custom of merchants, when they sent out the manufactures of this country to India, to get six months' credit. A large portion of the trade was 'therefore necessarily carried on by a system of credit ' He thought there had been too much credit, but the system was not • new one. It was therefore clear that when that credit on which they reposed wee suddenly withdrawn, those men must be thrown on their backs. It was the altered state of their money law which rendered it impossible for them to carry on their operations as usual, and not any im prudence, which brought them to the ground. So much , for the general imputations cast on the victims of their altered law. But it was not alone these who were made victims that suffered. The whole of the commercial try of the country had suffered to an extent which their lordshipe would find it difficult to give credit to if stated in figures. (Hear, hear.) And this was not all. The commer cial character of the country had been deeply injured ; and the London merchant, whose character for integrity and security stood at the very highest point in every quarter of the globe became • by-word in the mouths of foreigners. (Hear ' bear.) He coasidered that these results were to be ascribed, almost beyond contradiction, to the re strictions imposed by the act of 1844, and not to the impor tation of corn. In France there was a larger importation of corn, in proportion to the extent of its means, than in this coattry. But the commercial credit of France was not affected from that circumstance, and the Bank of France did not refuse its ordinary accommodation to the commercial elutes, although it hardly possessed 2,000,000 sterling in its coffers. (Hear, her.) The government in this country re quired the Bank to demand 8 per cent. before it gave &mom modation. The result of such a high rate of interest would be, that the ordinary manufacturing operations of the country could not be carried on. A respectable merchant from Birmingham told him lately, that he had received a very valuable and extensive order to execute, and on going to his banker to get assistance to enable him to execute it, he was told by that banker that the Bank of England dis counted at 8 per cent., and that ha must have as much. But he replied that, valuable as the order was, that would be more than he would have by the transaction himself. (Hear, bear.) The great object to be gained by the act of 1844 was convertibility, and this convertibility was to be ob tained by the contrivance of the Bank of England. But the result of this contrivance was that the Bank of England, having 8,900,0001. of private deposits, was at one time in each a predicament that they had no more than 1,160,000/. reserve; to that the great object of the act of 1844, namely, the maintaining of payment in smelt, was rendered more difficult by its own operation. (Hear.) Before the act of 1844 was maid, the Bank of England did not refine reasonable accommodation when the amount of securities possessed by it was much smaller. In 1835, the average possessed by the Bank was caoe,cooi ; in 1836, 7,000,0001_ : 1837, 8,000,0001. ; 1838, 9,000,0001.; 1839, 5,000,0001. ; 1840,4,000,0001. These were years in which the Bank di sc h a rged the functions of a Catnational establishment, and fulfilled the purposes which it was instituted, by affording proper and reasonable accommodation to the commerce of the country. But this year, when it had upwards of 8,000,0001., it was not able to do so, not because it was afraid of not being able to pay, but because it was afraid of falling within the limits of the law of 1844. It was said that by demanding a rate of interest at 8 per cent, they would keep down the demand for discounts, as persons would not be likely to pay that rate. But they forgot that th e B an k o f England, in de minding so much, set an example to the whole country. (Hear, hear.) Bethought that there were circumstances connected with the Bank of Rutland which required consideration from the committee. The Bank had lately resorted to the prudes, which was unknown und er th e o ld l aw, o f go i ng into the Stock Exchange, and become in feet mere stock jobben. The Bank had the power of issuing 14,000,000 of note,. This was a practice which required to be considered, as when the Bank raised the interest the stocks went dome, and when they lowered the rate of interest the stocks went up. (Hear, hear.) The law gave the Bank the power to lane 14,000,000 of notes, and the law required that when a re duction of coin took place it should be followed by a cor responding diminution of paper. Now he maintained it was net necessary that the paper circulation ehoold be sassed in the proportion forced on the Bank. He oseeklared that a cutiron rule in an act of parliament, pmemlbite • gloat amount of circulation under all cir eunelliems% was utterly valueless. Some margin should be lg i gt rie r a greene who knew that although twenty millions of e were dangerous at one time, twenty-flee might be mho* safe at another. (Hear, heir 1 - He contended that government, by suspending the act of 1844, had COD dowsed its principle ; and that they were right in doing so , was proved by the general prosperity which had inionedi a e,o 3 , followed its suspension, (Hear, bear.) The Earl of EOLINTON wished to know why the Scotch banks were not to be included in the inquiry ? The Marquis of LANSDOWNE mid there was nothing in the terms of his notice to shut out the Scotch banks, but that would be a point for the discretion of the committee. Lord WHARNCLIFFE wished to know the terms on which government and parliament stood with the Bank. It was very important for their lordships to know whether, if they thought flt to alter the Bank Charter Act, or to interfere with the privileges of the Bank, they were in a condition legally to do so ; and, if not, whether the acquiescence of the Bank authorities could be calculated upon., Notwithataud ing all lte had heard he still put faith in the principle of the act of 344, and he gave the government infinite credit for the course they had adopted respecting it. (Hear, hear.) I After a few words in explanation from Lord ASHBURTON, Ttiw Marquis of LANSDOWNE, In answer to questions was to him in the course of the debate, said that it would not cone within the scope of the committee's labours to consider am=a lop the whole monetary system of the country, but 101111 DO themselves to the banking question. With rompoottelk• Bank, he wee happy to be able to state that there was wooer disposition in that quarter fairly to meet the views *timeliness and the legislature. The moilia, with a vernal amendment suggested by Lord STANLIY 1111111190041 d to by the Marquis of L Coe DOWN was them agreed to, and the house adjourned at a quarter put Wm Viiisk. THE EXPRESS, PRIDAY EVENING, DECEMBER 3, 1847. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—THITRSDAY, Dec. 2. The Brosnan took the chair at four o'clock, when several numbers Wen men. runic 811611111111. ESITTIONII—htr. Inceese. roar aehowoeseterZyne, In favour of menenree her gatimmat emenination sal nilieft roam and for rentalkineememi. P. Theeteent. from blooming- Man banagj k t7 . lll Nan gaol Meroive manium—Mr. Os man; ra m • Mt WA nine eithet.—lard Baum" from spire in tar law maddng it Mom a thesonase any =rely hMINIM WNW party.—Mr. TOPMILL, be in Weer of sMintasn.—mr. J. Cue, been Chamber of COMMON) anal, tae Munley Ma the nennetary lave of the 114041.• Ilmougan, hem Deills. wheat Mr bleabolon of Jens to try L—llr. 0. Cum. feats Climbs of Coeuneren of Edin. Dartp lh for mimic! the rearktive aims laths as Ada of 1844 and 1645 ELECTION renTlONe—Pelitlass were spinet the re. , tarns for &mate, Lyme Bern and Abingdon. NAVIGATION LAWS. Mr. RICARDO inquired when government proposed to bring forward any measure for the repeal or alteration of these laws ? Lord J. RUSSELL said, certainly it would not be before Christmas. After the recess he would consider the state of public business, and inform the house when he hoped to be able to bring in a measure on the subj ect. JOINT STOCK COMPANIES. Mr. CARD WELL asked whether the bill which it was understood would be introduced to amend the act of 1844, relating to the winding up of the affairs of Joint Stock Com panies, was prepared, and if it would be proceeded with during the present wagon ? Mr. LABOUCHERE said the hon. gentleman would recollect that his right hon. friend the Vice-President of the Board of Trails bad introduced a bill in the last session of parliament, which, owing to the late period of the seuion, and the nature of the opposition by which it was met, did not pass. His right hon. friend had since directed his atten tion to the subject, and consulted with those best qualified to give an opinion upon it, and he trusted that in the course of the session a measure would be matured and submitted to parliament, calculated to effect the object in view, and which should be at the same time free from the objections urged against the former bill. THE TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM. Sir J. lAlll46f4ssll;isicedtZ be informed of the man ner in which those convicts, who had been sentenced to tran sportation daring the present year, had been dispesed of ; also what course would be in future adopted for the disycnal of that class of convicts, and whether an steps had been taken to establish the convict station at Port l and ? Sir G. GREY said the subject was one which had engaged the careful attention of government. No doubt, since the suspension of transportation to Van Dieman's Land in 1846, considerable difficulties had arisen in satisfactorily disposing of prisoners sentenced to be transported, and in order to dis pense with a point of law, a considerable increase bad been made in the number of this class of convicts employed under the admiralty and ordnance departments in the dock yards and animals of Woolwich and Portsmouth. With re gard to the establishment at Portland, he had hoped the arrangements would have been complete by this time ; but an unexpected cause of delay had arieen in the claims of parties who powered leasehold interests in the land required for the necessary buildings. His noble friend (the First Commissioner of Woods and Forests), however, bad oorifi dent bore that these claims would soon be adjusted, when the arrangements would be carried out. AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS. In 131.11WertOTC1 Mr. LABOUCHERE trusted that in the oourse of the session a measure would be matured and submitted to parliament, he should be enabled to collect the most valuable and accurate statistical information. . _ , - - Mr. A. STAFFORD asked whether the right hon. gen- I Hunan would move for the appointment of a committee of inquiry p,evione to the introduction of the proposed bill ? Mr. LABOUCHERE would consider that point ; but his belief was, that sufficient information might be laid before the house without entering upon any such inquiry. CONDITION OF IRELAND. Mr. J. O'CONNELL would postpone his motion as to the consolidation of the several government departments of England and Ireland, which he had put on the paper for the purpose of bringing the state of Ireland generally under consideration, if it was the wish of the house that be should do so, in order to give precedence to the adjourned debate on the commercial distress. (Hear, bear.) FEES IN COURTS OF LAW AND EQUITY. Mr. ROMILLY moved for the appointment of a select committee to inquire into the taxation of suitors in law and equity, extending the same to all courts, including the Eccle siastical and Admiralty Courts, by the collection of fees ; the amount, mode of collection, and appropriation of such fees, and the salaries and fees received by the officers of those court,, and whether any means can be adopted with a view of superintending and regulating the collection and appro priation thereof. Sir G. GREY.—Understanding that the object was simply to continue the inquiry commenced last session, at the in stance of the hon. and learned member for Kin sale, would not oppose the motion. With regard to the County Courts, inquiries were now in progress with a view, if possible, to re duce the fees generally.—Motion agreed to. POOR LAW ADMINISTRATION ACT. Mr. G. BANKES roe. to mete for leave to bring in a bill to amend this act by reducing the amount' of charge to which the public are liable under its provisions. It would be remembered that a committee of the previous session re ported that, with regard to the existing commission, their pro ctsedinge were in many respects irregular, arbitrary, contrary to the statute, and calculated to shake public confidence. But he was not entitled to say that this report had °Eva- eloped the chance in the views of the government, though such an impression had prevailed in the minds of many members of the committee. At all events, the government had themselves introduced a bill, which, after considerable discussion, had been passed in June laid, changing the mode of the administration of the poor law ' • but from that time up to the present its provisions had not been brought into ope. ration. He therefore called upon the government to explain why this was the ease. The hon. and learned member con cluded by moving for leave to bring in the bill. Mr. A. STAFFORD seconded the motion. Lord J. RUSSELL thought that when the house was in formed of the facts of the case, hon. members would find there existed no reason for taking the hasty step the bon. end learned gentleman proposed. It was true that there had been for some years three com missioners to whom bad been entrusted the admini stration of the poor-laws, and whose total salaries amounted to 8,0001. per annum. What the government lest year proposed was, that instead of these three commis sioners, there should be one president, with a eatery of 2,0001., end two secretaries with salaries of 1,500/. per annum each, thereby making the cost just 1,0001. per annum less them that of the former establish ment. With regard to carrying that arrangement into effect, it was not possible for him to explain the communica tions he had had with many individual, and the unwilling. ness persons had shown to undertake so very responsible and laborious an office; but with respect to the statement that at present there was only one commissioner doing the business of the department, the hon. and learned gentleman had made a great mistake. When his bon. friend the mem ber for Hereford (Mr. Lewis) reigned his seat at the board, I there still remained Mr. Nicholls and Sir Edmund Head, who continued to carry on the business of the commission I from that time. He (Lord J. Russell) was, however, happy to my that the new arrangements were now nearly corn pitted, and within a week or ten days there would be a pre 'sident and two secretaries appointed, in conformity with the provisions of the act of last session. He (Lord J. Russell) did not concur in the censure which the majority of the se lect committee had passed against the old poor-law commis sioners, and he had already on a former occasion stated his reasons why he did not so concur, and as no member of the committee had ever asked the house to agree to that report, and to confirm the censure, he had under stood it was because such a proposition would not I be tenable in that house. On the other point the hon. and learned member was entirely mistaken as to the course of the government. His right hon. friend (Sir 0. Grey) ob tained leave to bring in the bill for the prevention of mime in Ireland only on Monday last, and the bill was not deli vered into the hands of members until Wednesday morning, land be (Lord J. Ruda) thought it would have been an un fair coulee to bring the bill to a second reading either on Wednesday or Thursday. He thought it was only fair to, hon. members who wished to consider the subject to give them time until Monday next to do so, end accordingly it I had been settled that the second reading should be fixed for Monday next. (Hear, hear.) The government had no in tention of postponing any stage of the bill ; on the contrary, believing it to bo necessary for the prevention of crime, and the protection of life and property in Ireland, they should proceed with the measure on Monday, and every day after wards that was allowed them by the house. Mr. DISRAELI thought the present government woe the last that ought to attempt to depreciate the report of a select committee. Whatever might now be the opinion of the noble lord as to the decision of the Andover committee he could not deny that he bad virtually acted upon it, for after th e report bad been made the noble lord came forward end immediately proposed a great revolution in the means of administering the affairs of the poor law. (Hear, bear.) And, therefore, he thought that those who had been diem. tidied with the previous administration would have been satisfied with the result which the Andover inquiry had achieved ; and, that it was quite unnecessary for any member of the committee to pursue the subject further. (Hear, hear.) But it so happened that in consequence of the delay of the government thy same hon. gentleman last dation gave notice of another motion on the 'abject unless the delay was satisfactorily ex plained. That motion dropped in consequence of the illness of the hon. gentleman, and the impending dissolution of wliament He (Mr. Disraeli), therefore, contended— first, that the noble lord, though he did not approve of the report of the committee, had virtually acted upon it ; secondly, that the members of the committee who voted in favour of the report, did not shrink from vindicating that report in this house • and thirdly, that as her Majesty's government had act ed upon it, it would have rather had an air of a vindictive character to pursue that investigation any further, or to provoke any discussion on that topic. (Hear.) After • few weeds from Mr. F. Faerecx and Captain Pietist!, Mr. SAHEBS consented to withdraw his motion. LANDED ESTATES (IRELAND). Mr.B.OSBORNE moved for • return of all leaded estates in Irelend,under the management of receivers of the Courts of Chancery and Equity Exchequer in Ireland, dating the names of the receivers, their profession or occupation, and residence, the number of tenants, the amount expended on each property for improvements since the said properties came under the management of a receiver of the Court of Chancery, and the arrears which have been allowed to accumulate. Also, for copies of the general rules or ia structiona given since 1843 by the Court of Chancery in Ireland, for the guidance of receivers. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER objected to the latter part of the motion, on the ground that it was not included in the notice of motion. If the return wee moved for in the form set out in Lord Devon's commission, he should not object to it. Mr. B. OSBORNE hoped the return would be granted u asked, as he intended to found a motion upon it. Mr. HAMILTON suggested to his hun. friend the pro• priety of withdrawing his motion for the present, and giving a new notice in as amended form. Mr. GUINNESS said that after an experience of 25 years as • receiver under the Court of Chancery he could state that no class of property in Ireland more required the attention of the house than that which unfortunately was placed under the jurisdiction of the Court of Chancery. The control of those estates ought either to be altogether taken away from the Court of Chancery, or its powers ought to be enlarged. Sir G. GREY admitted the importance of the subject, and said the government did not object to the return moved for, and they only wished It to be withdrawn for to-night, and • notice, given of it in the form in which it was desired. Mr. B. OSBORNE said that with that explanation he would withdraw the motion for the present. APPEALS IN CRIMINAL CASES. Mr. EWART said that lately several cases had occurred is which persons had been found guilty and punished for a supposed infraction of the law who had subsequently been discovered to be innocent, and had received free pardons hom the crown. The first was Mary-Ann Turpin, who bad been found guilty at the Central Criminal Court, and sentenced to six months' imprisonment. She had since been proved to be innocent, and had received a free pardon. The next cam woo that of Thomas Whalley, who had been con victed at the Stafford Assizes, and sentenced to fifteen years' transportation. After he had been imprisoned eighteen months his innocence of the offence was proved, and he also received a free pardon. There was also the case of Charles Butler, who had been found guilty of a criminal offence which afterwards proved to be a civiloffesee, and he received a free pardon. Among other similar cases there was that of three men who had been transported to Van Diemen's Land, and being afterwards found to he innocent had been par doned and received a donation of 101. each. Now these ware most anomalous and tinjuat proceeding,, and he begged to ark his right hen. friend the Home Secretary whether it was the intention of the government to institute a court of criminal appeal, or adopt any similar remedial measures for such PAWS ? Sir G. GREY said he should not now enter upon a dis (melon which would necessarily occupy • considerable por tion of the time of the house. He could assure his hon. friend that even if there had been in existence a court of criminal appeal, he did not believe it could have afforded that speedy relief which had been afforded in the three cases to which he had first referred. The question of the eatablilt ment of such a court was beset with difficulties, as was evi denced by the fact that though Sir F. Kelly introduced a measure with that object in 1844, yet when that hon. and learned gentleman became solicitor-general he had not attempted to revive the bill as • measure which ke could satisfactorily recommend when in office. With respect to the case of Mary Ann Timely, she WAS convicted at the last October sessions of the Central Criminal Court of stealing a watch, and sentenced to six months' imprisonment Now if there had been a court of appeal she must have waited until the ensuing term, and at some future session she would have had to be tried again. But what actually took place in her cars? The Recorder of London wrote to him (Sir G. Grey) oa the 23rd of November, stating that a man of the nuns of Ward had been convicted on the clearest evidence of being the perpetrator of the crime im puted to the woman Turpio, and on the very same day that he (Sir G. Grey) received that communication an order was sent from the Home-office for her immediate discharge. (Hear, hear.) The case of Thomas Whalley had bees this. lie was tried and convicted of rape at the Stafford Spring Assizes. Three months elapsed before the cage came under his notice; but on the 11th of June a petition had been ad dressed to him, stating thst the offence was of an improbable character, and accompanied with many voluminous docu ments. On receipt of them he (Sir G. Grey) read them, and having satisfied himself that they established a prima facie case for further inquiry, he had adopted the usual coulee and forwarded them to Mr. Serjeant Gaselee before whom acting as a judge of assize, the man Whalley had lit en tried. A very considerable time elapsed and Mr. Serjeant Gaselee made no report, and in August he was reminded of the matter, upon which the learned serjeant wrote to say that he was unable to make any report, in consequence of the prisoner's counsel having desired him to withhold it until some further documents were referred to him (Sir G. Grey). Those documents he (Sir G. Grey) received towards the end of August, and on the 28th August he received from Mr. Serjeant Guides a report, which was not conclusive, but which in fact concurred in the verdict of the jury. mai dering however the other documents, and receiving informa tion as to the character of the husba nd of the prosecutris he (Sir G. Grey)comenunicated with one of the Barons o f Exchequer, who knew something of the case, and requested him to read the papers and to communicate with Mr. See jeant Gaselee; and at last he (Sir G. Grey), on the 29th of October, received a final report from those learned persons, both concurring, after mature deliberation, that the verdict was wrong and could not be sustained. Upon that the prisoner was immediately discharged. (Hear, hear.) As to the case of Charles Butler, he was not discharged, because his offence turned out to he of a civil and note criminal character, but he was discharged solely on a medical certificate to the effect that a further imprisonment would endanger his life. An application bad been made on other grounds, which on inquiry he had felt it to be his duty to refuse. With respect to the three prisoners who had been sent to Van Diemen's Land, and whose innocence had since been established, it was quite true that they had been par doned and brought home, and that 101. had been paid to each of them, so that when they landed they should not be penniless. Now, in none of these caws would a court of criminal appeal have been of any avail, for such a court could not deal with facia, and though he should be thankful to get rid of the painful duty of deciding such cases, still he could not see the expediency of establishing such a tri bunal. (Hear, hear.) BOROUGH LUNATIC ASYLUMS. Mr. DEERING inquired from tbe right hon. baronet the Hoene Secretary, whether it was his intention to enforce the discretionary power vested in him by the act 7 and 8 Vic., c. 126, where an wine* for pauper lanatics shall not have been begun before August next in any county of Eng land. Sir G. OREY said the act in question gave the corpora tions in cities and boroughs, three year, from the passing of the act to erect asylums. Those three years would expire in August, 1848 ; when that time arrived, if it should appear that the justices hid failed to comply with the pro visions of the act, he should feel it his duty, if he then had the honour to hold his present office, to exercise the discretion vested in the Home Secretary by the statute in question, ac cording to the facts and particulars of each case as it might be presented to bite. ADJOURNED DEBATE.— COMMERCIAL DISTRESS. The order of the day for retaining the adjourned debate on commercial dietrees having been read, Mr. URQUHART said it appeared to him that the ques tion before the house was one of far greater importance than seemed to be considered by several hon. members who had already addreued the house. The existing misery and dis tress was to be attributed to the series of legislation which had characterised the commercial history of this country. The measure of 1844, when introduced, had been denounced by some and cheered by others, and he thought its results justified those denunciations, and disproved all the reasons which bad been urged in its favour. When that bill was mused, his opinion was as decided u to , its result& as they were new that its operation had been pretty well ascertained. When the right hon. hart. intro duced the bill, he said it was of the gravest importance, and that the country at large would be affected by it. Thecountry at large had since seen and felt severely its effects. It was not merely that the bill undoubtedly was of the gravest im ! pertance, but its results showed that it convulsed the whole state of the country—it cenfusecl every branch of trade—it superseded the laws of our constitution—it treated with de lfiance every dictate of reason and common sense, and it left us in the midst of a chaos, as en the morrow of the de luge. (" Hear, hear," and laughter.) On Tuesday night last it was said that the present disaster ' was not the result of the Bank charter, but that it was caused by speculations in railways. Now he would ask what rail ways were ? They were undertakings like many other spe culations in this country, at least in some respects; all that could be said of them was, that a great number of people were employed in their construction, and the yeses those people received went to pay for tea, sugar, bread, butter, and other articles of food, as well es clothing. There might have been injurious speculations in railways ; no doubt there were; but those were questions of a private and commercial kind. In railways it should be recollected there was no abstraction of capital from the country. How was it that our demand for foreign grain had not called forth a corresponding demand for oar manufac tures? The expectations and hopes held out in that respect by the advocates of free trade were sadly disappointed— geld was preferred to our manufactures. The reason was, because there was a bonus for gold, and an embargo upon our manufactures. (Hear, hear.) The lamentable result was, that many millions were drained out of the country, which had brought it to its present state. He would ask why was it that the price of gold was fixed ?—why was it that our gold sent out of this country during the war should have been sent at 51. an ounce, and now sent out at 31. 17s. 184 d. ? Free trade had been called for—restrictions were objected Wand denounced. The principle was admitted. Why should not the same principles be applied to gold ? The truth was, the price of gold was fixed, and if the honourable mover of the amendment objected to the price of gold being fixed, and supported the present system of currency, he must be guilty he might be allowed to use the expression) of inconsis tency. The next question he would advert to was waverti bility, which, he need hardly my, meant t paper money for gold. During the war weo ar gold at the then market value, but sine*, the e inflexible that gold should be at the same pries wader all circumstances sad all changes. People who wow prawn a U. note to gee ohmage reselme Ise aseerelips lier It, but if every one Who had metes wished to get thma switesged, and presented theta for that purpows, there wooldbesseach thiag as convertibility, (Hear, hear.) He lashed apes the feet that there was no fixed standard for gold es sae of the mesa ' important topics of that debate. It was said that a fixed standard for gold would be bad—the ques tion was whether it would or not. The mimed*s of free trade, those who were instrumental in she late measure removing all restrictions upon e, that they were in favour of unlimited freedom from restrit tions. Mow was it reconcilable that they were for restrictions upon that (geld) which represented all =? (Cheers.) Our existing money laws had, in effect, de , that to him who had much, more should be added; while from him who had little, all should be taken away. Mr. E. ELLICE thought it most extraordinary that, with the vast iedustry and mineral wealth of this country pe riodical convulsions should occur, shaking commerce and in dustry to its centre. (Hear.) Host willingly would he sup po benefit t nefi th t e wie vie to ws be of dthereivelastd ifrostrystkeouheceruh,nliiinfanghweeiethicthplotio:berh:itptniring::i Few people, now-a-days, imagined that our evils could be remedied by a fluctuating standard. (Hear, hear.) How was such a standard to be used,—how made neverapplica b b l . e . to re Lu rt e aa con to diti in on that country to ruin. (Hear.) One of the meat unfortunate steps ever taken in this country was, that, after having mooed such a vast amount of obligations during the war, we should resolve to resume cash payments in 1819. (g em ..) He bad deeply deplored this course ; but it was now too late to go back. (Hear.) The object of that measure was to carry out in good faith that which parliament had deter mined on. At that time his only objection to it was there. duction of the value of the ounce of gold from 81s. to 77a, 10Id,, and on this he had proposed an ameadment bat without success. Ha had aince felt bound by that IMF sure, and had been foiemost in seeking to maintain it. Mr. MUNTZ You cannot maintam it. (Hear.) Mr. ELLICE : But we were bound to endeavour to do so as long as we could. (Hear.) The right hon. gentleman then alluded to the crises of 1816 and 1819, and observed that the bullion then forced out of this country had very soon after been fouud in the bank of France. Then came the right hon. baronet's (Sir R.Peers) measure of 1819; and who did not remember the closely succeeding events of 1822, when 13,000,0001. of paper was borrowed from the Beek gold took its departure, and the memorable disasters of 182,i occurred ? The Bank, with 30,000,0001. of paper out, was then so near stopping payment, that the directors sat in the parlour with their watches out, anxiously awaiting the stroke of four o'clock, to close the doors of the establishineat. (Hear, hear.) Other fluctuations of less import bad sns ceeded, until in 1844 the right hon. baronet (Sir R. Peel) had proposed his recent measure, doubtless with the view of checking these fluctuations. To effect this, the principle of convertibility had been adopted. Though he (Mr. Ellie.) approved of this principle et the time, be had now ge m s doubt,' as to its operation ; and he entirely dissented from the inference drawn by his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the measure of 1844 was the safest that could be devised. Surely recent events could not war rant such a belief in the mind of any man. (Hear, hest,) One recent occurrence had much tended to alter his vial = as to the security of the principle of convertibility. Re alluded to the vast importations of grain, both in this country and in France. While, in France, these trams& hone, being chiefly transfers of grain from one put of the country to the otter, had caused but little derangement of their monetary alleles—here, on the other hand, the whole of the funds necessary to purchase corn having to be with drawn front the central establishment, the Bank of England, the greatest derangement had been thereby created, whose effect was probably equal to the withdrawal from the eV. rency of three times the amount of gold sent out of the country. (Hear, hear.) Such a state of things could not possibly have occurred, had our currency been based upon actual deposits of money. It mattered not to this part of the argument what was the standard of value—it might be gold, or tin, or any other metal ; but with a fluctuating standard it would be impossible to conduct the vast affairs of a nation like this. (Hear.) He was not so fully convinced as the right , hon. beronetbelow him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) of ' the security of our position ; probably he should have thought it necessary to interfere earlier, but no one could forme events, especially where so many disturbing causes were at work. There was not only the importation of ma but the railroads. He was no enemy to railways; on the other band, he thought the hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Hudson), the founder of the system , well entitled to the gratitude of the country. Still, It should be remembered that these conjoint causes had been productive of im mense loss. Still, great good would arise hereafter from the railways ; it was impossible to estimate the amount of that good ; and in securing it we were in the position of a person who bad crippled his means by the purchase of a de ferred annuity. (Hear.) Another disturbing cause was the connexion of the government with the Bank. (Hear, hear.) The bill of 1844 professed to provide security against the Bank acting so as to injure the position of the ounts7. The right hon. the Chancellor of the Excheqe,contended that this would net have happened had the rectors acted discreetly. Why, had the right boa. gentleman himself been governor of the Bank, probably the same course would have been pursued. The whole system of every Chancellor of the Exchequer, since 1819, had been nothing but an abuse of credit ; they blew the bubble of prosperity for the sake of the particular budget of the year— (hear, bear)—though he must admit that his right hon. friend below him had rather avoided this last year. (Hear, hear.) But, is the position in which this country had been recently placed he thought it would have been better not to have taken up a loan, but to have raised the money by taxa tion. He never could understand why we should have any floating debt in this country when Exchequer Bills were at par. The fact was, that the whole of our revenue system was so mined up with the questions of currency and Bank management, that it was impossible to go into any inquiry without considering the whole. (Hear, hear.) Were he asked what system he would substitute for the existing doe, he must confess he fell himself very much in the dark, and he believed we were all so. (Hear.) After struggling nearly 30 years with the principle of convertibility, he feared we must come to the conviction that it could not be maintained, especially now that it was subjected to the test of failing harvests and free trade. (Hear, lieu.) In toying this, he spoke as a friend of free trade ; but he conceived we had not yet seen all the effects of the system. (Hear, hear.) The great defalcation of food in Ireland was another cause of difficulty ; and this led to the inquiry how were our existing deficiencies to be supplied? All these things conspired to make the present a state of transition. lie felt all the dIM. citifies and embarrassments of his righthon. friend the Chan cellor of the Exchequer consequent on this transition system. By the time the committee made its report, they should know probably what the system of finance was to be with reference to the permanent taxation of the country. As to the Scotch banks, to which allusion had been made, there was nothing so admirable on the surface as those banks ; and he believed the great banks in that country were as well provided as the Bank of England to meet their engagements; they had always been careful in maintaining adequate security for their liabilities. The system did not depend on any ',articular principle as much so on the men who worked it. He thought, however, that in times of pressure and emergency the Scotch banks should be able to avoid the necessity of coming to England for assistance. His right hon. friend said that the Bank of England was in a very healthy and flourishing state, and he believed it bad that day reduced its interest to 6 per cent. ; but it was not the con dition of the Bank as much se the condition of the public which had to do with the question. One of the moot essea tial things to be inquired into by the oom-nittee would be the dealing of the Bank in public securities. The present system was unsatisfactory and unsound, and he thought they should know better how to amend it after the inquiry of the com mittee. Still, however, he knew the advantages and con veniencies of oar present system, but he hoped the legis lature would secure those advantages to the country without again exposing it to the risks and dangers under which it now suffered. (Hear.) Mr. NEWDEGATE said it was quite necessary that the Bank should go Late the market and sell securities, for whet its deposits were withdrawn, it was boned to sacrifice its securities at the same time • and they ought not to find fault with the Bank director s for complying with the enact ments which had been forced upon them. It was true that upwards of 35,009,0001. bad been expended on railways during the last year, but that ram had not gone out of the circulation of the country, and the real pressure bad been produced by the payment of 33,000,0001. for corn. What ever might be said to the contrary, be must contend that free trade had greatly aggravated the crisis, for large im portations of corn must lead to large exportations of bullion, end its effect on the monetary system of the country must be evident. It was true that America had taken more of our manufacture., but then it had been at ruinous prices. He also contended that free trade had deranged the general balance of trade, and turned it against this country, es was shown by a reference to our exports and imports for the years 1845, 1546, and 1847. The exports bad fa/knoll 3,000,0001. in the last year, and 1,000,0001, in the last month. That a system of free trade was inconsistent with a restricted currency was proved by these moults, and with the imme diate prospect of recurriag difficulty were they to teat con tent, pending the proposed inquiry (perhaps for the next 18 months), until our merchants were ruined, and all the labourers *waged on railway works, and the artisans OF ployed in our manufactures, were thrown upon the peor rates ? Mr. Newdegate west on to condemn the terms upon which we bad been compelled to take gold from Russet and also to combat the opinion of the Chancellor o f the Exchequer that there bad been no contraction of currency. He complained, also, of the operation of the act of 1844, as giving an advantage to the Bank in the discount market, and as being opposed to the principle previously recognised, that a contraction of coedit should precede a contraction of circulation. Them matters, he trusted, would be investigated by the committee, but hoped the late. rests of the country would not be endangered by a determi nation obstinately to maintain—pending a long and tedious inquiry—a law under which depression must continue and increase so long as the balance of trade remained &Oast us, and that no dogmatic adherence to a principle which 'w hence had proved to be erroneous, would induce geom. meat to refuse to relax an oppressive and dangerous law. Mr. MITCHELL attributed the commercial data* lender which the country had been suffering to over ' Mr. DRUMMOND said that the right hon. b 4 member for Tamworth, must be a wonderful man , z t a l bla bill of 1844 be a most wonderful bill, if either could emmase pH& one-twentieth part of that which had been attlitnlA to them. (" Hear," and a laugh.) The right boa. mrsis, her for Coventry had shown clearly many of the sanomiMidt had contributed to bring the country to its monk osmillina He (Mr. Drummond) was not one of those who Montt the repeal of the corn laws, much as he disliked that samissme had anything whatever to do with the position in whkalli country was now placed ; but, with regard to miletedia confessed that he thought both the late and the puma government had been much to blame when, having MM warned by their own respective boards, they ought te ban taken same decisive measure to check the mania which thin t since raged. With respect to the bill of 1844, be bad that it was to be the precursor to the patties" to the connexion between the government art the Desk of England ; but it was quite obviot "tat had recently transpired, that the mode of c on the business of i ts Bank had been completely AS to eiver.trading, it was manifest that it had existed Is Off tormlible extent. In ancient times, when at glair waited from Venice and Genoa, they carried goods end MOW* assinnge for produce, and there was in the wesid as sail : W a o leading by paper until this nation bid eissoft is get rid of its own ram of kings, and to a Denima. (Hear, and laughter.) Hanoi ast S mast B raising • false credit. It had been said that Meals esealey than had always been alternations of and ensue of adversity. But how was it that Cur= had se mesh increased in its depth and intensity? why bosom they bad changed the whole relative cendidtan moiety. Is *mar times the land was considered oval- couPI tbt enii4 for u and Chi Pro prei the use, cn] SUrl tiOt tail tha the mr Re pi me He kg we qu Po'