The Express. — London, England, 1847-04-27 00:00:00

beyond ten pars.. er to place their services at the disposal of the country in some way or ether. It could not be denied that the subject was one of coasidera- Ca difficulty in regard to financial as well as other considera tions. For many yearn after the terminat io n of the last European war it was practically allowed to every man after 21 years' eerviee is the army to resin upon • pension of la. par day. Practically this wan the rule acted upon up to the year 1429, when it was found that the burden imposed upon the country by that regulation was so serious, that some change was absolutely eseessary. The law, in point of fact, was, that no man should be allowed to retire unless upon the certificate of his commanding officer that he was no longer fit for service ; but the man having no inducement to remain beyond the 21 years, en the pension of Is. • day was equal to his psy,and being (which would be the cue if he had enlisted at the age of 18) only 39 years of age, and probably in the enjoyment of full health and strength, and so the difficulty of obtaining the required certificate nes not great, it followed that the number of men who obtained their dis charge in this way was very great. At the period of which he spoke the whole strength of the , 1 army on service was 92.800 men, while the out-pensioners udder er no less head .pan 8 pew5,;720, ior mil the ese r u s t_ t pe to the country gradually increased since the war until it amounted to 1,318,0001. It was found in practice that the number of peusioaers inCreased during the peace-service in a greater ratio than during the war, and the attention of the govern ment being directed to the subject, • minute was issued by Sir 11. Harding*, requiring that every soldier applying for Lis discharge, and claiming the pension after 21 years' ser vice, should undergo a strict examination before the board at Chelsea; and the eertticate of discharge was only given when it was found that he was unfit for further service. This rule checked the progressive increase in the number of pensioners to some ext.nt, but it was open to the objection that it operated rather as an encouragement to the had than the good soldier. The drunkard who hxd ruined his consti tution by drinking would be declared unfit for service, and be discharged with the full pension, while the steady and well-conducted man, who had kept himself in good health, would be refused. This was looked upon as • serious in justice by the men themselves, end many canes had occurred where the men, to entitle themselves to their discharge, would maim or otherwise injure themselves. To put a stop to this evil, another minute was issued, under which no soldier who enlisted subsequent to the year 1833 was entitled to more than 6d. a day pension after 21 yearn' service. He was one of those who had always con sidered that that was too low • rate of pension. and in 1836 he had the honour of proposing to his late Majesty a warrant, which was adopted, by which that amount was increased by the goad conduct money, to which, under the same warrant, he might, by steady and good con duct, be entitled at the period -if his discharge. This war rant was still further improved by Mr. Sidney Herbert's regulation of 1845, which allowed the soldier, in addition to the tid, a day pension, 4d. • day as good-conduct looney, should his conduct while in the army have entitled him to the mine; and to still further premium if he served beyond the 21 park It had been now suggested that it would be well still further to increase the minimum rate of pension, so as to make it up with the good-coaduct money to the former ;ate of la. a day, making the minimum rate of pension Bd.; and that those soldiers who re-enlisted should be entitled to that amount of pension after they arrived at 50 years of age. To that proposition he had no objection then to offer—it had been submitted to the government, and would be considered by them with favour, and with the view of adopting it, unless parliamentary and other insurmountable obstacles intervened to prevent it. (Hear.) There were several other minor points to which he had been anxious to advert ; but, as they were comparatively immaterial, and at he had already trespassed so long upon the attention of the boars, he world conclude by moving that the bill be read a sewed time. . . The question having been put, Viscount COMBEHMERE, who was very indistinctly heard, opposed the bill, which he contended would tend rather to impair than to increase the efficiency of the army ; neither did he believe that it would be effectual for its avowed object—that of inducing a better clam of men to engage in that service. He called upon the house to consider the danger of having a large proportion of the army (and that the moat experienced and efficient), while engaged oa active service, petaps in the midst of a war. claiming their discharge under this bill, the limited period for which they entered having possibly t spired at the most inconvenient moment. He also adverted to the great inconvenience which would arise from having in the same oinks limited service men and unlimited service men, and of the injustice which the measure would cited upon the old soldiers, who would not be entitled to the sane advan tag e as those who were enlisted under this bill. He considered, too, that the rate of pension was by no means sufficient as an inducement for men to re-enter the airs ice, and oincluded by moving that the bill be read • second time that day six months. The Duke of WELLINGTON.—My lords, my noble friend who has 'eat sat down has no occasion to make any apology for addressing your lordships on this subject. There is no officer in tho British army, who, from long and distinguished service in all pacts of both Europe and Asia, is more capable of anticipating the probable effects of this nomestre than my noble friend. (Cheers.) I quite agree mile my noble friend as to the importance of this measure with regard to the state and efficiency of the army, and I can aware him that if I considered ft calculated to deprive the army of its old soldiers I should be the first to oppose its adoption ; but having given the measure my best coon. duration since its first propmition by the government, it is my opinion that it will not lead to any diminution of the number of old soldiers in the service. (Hear, hear.) My lords, I insist on it that the old soldiers are ab solutely neces sary to the very existence of the army. (Cheers.) I do not mean to talk of the army as if on actual service at the present moment. I ant aware how unpalatable such allu sions ore in the British parliament in time of peace, but I refer to the army in time of peace. I say that you must have the best and highest state of discipline in the army for the ordinary service of this country, and I earnestly entreat your lordships to attend to that point in considering this measure, and not take any step which shall deprive this country of the services of its old soldiers. (Hear, hear). My lords, the foundation of your service is the constitution of your batta lions and companies: and here it is that the old soldiers set the example of discipline, of subordination, and of good coder. (Hear, hear). They are the men who, at all times, pat themselves at the head of all that is good, and it is on them you must rely for the most important services you require even in time of peace. I meet say that although this country has been under poli tical treaties of peace for the last thirty years or more, I hays had to take under my consideration military operations of the greatest extent an I importance, not only in the Medi terranean, but in the East Indies, in Africa, and all over Asia. The army has carried all these operations to • successful termination ; but, my lords, if you had not had the highest discipline and the best troops in the world those services could not have been performed. (Cheers.) Look at the operations in China. Troops had then to be brot.ght together from Australia and from various other places, and were employed on rivers, on creeks, against fortresses and islands, and in concert with her Majesty's ships of war. How was all that done ? By the discipline of your army, and, above all, by the bravery of your old soldiers. (Loud cheers.) Look also at recent operations In the East Indies under my noble friend Lord Harding*, which never could have been effected but forthe steadiness of the old soldiers. Look at the estimation in which the Emperor Napoleon held his soldiers, and indeed the manner in which they are valued all over the world. (Hear, hear.) I hope and trust that nothing may deprive us of the services of these old and experienced men, and thus expose us to disgrace and loss whenever we come actively to employ our army. My lords, my opinion is, that the measure befere us is not mkulated to have this effect. My opinion is, that considering all the circumstances which acoompany it, the advantages which the soldier enjoys already, and the others which it provides, the measure is not likely to be attended with the effect of depriving the service of its old soldiers. (Hear, hear.) I beg to remind your lordships that there always has been in the service of this country • power of enlistment for either limited or unlimited service. At least, ever since the failure of an experiment similar to this in 1806, there his been in our service • pewer of this description, and therefore thepropenition now before your lordships is not altogether new in the service. At the acme time I must observe that in point of feet all the men at =in the army have been enlisted on terms of unlimited Tir able earl who so ably introduced the measure to per lesileite notice has stated that the consequence of ti yam of limited service will be that • superior of ma will be induced to enlist. I sincerely ...."."- egillt MEV be the result, but I very much doubt it. W relleen.) Bet this I believe, that t ands r the ad- E la Wimp soldier, of marks for good conduct, at different periods of five, tan, and etardmig, i le i =and also the accumulation of pennon, time) will be rho of men at the end of ten years ; I think the fir idil ellierellsa (Hear, hear.) I have no objection dtea to by Or ambient of limited enlistment, and I beg of year ' to adopt this measure on the grounds that it will rake no illibreart as to the number of old soldiers in the army. It is quite clear that the soldier who shall re outlet at the red of ten years, being • well-conducted man, will bays many advantages . He will have fourpesce • day as the accumulation of his good conduct money, and his pension of sixpence, making tenpence. But it has been suggested to make the pension eightpence, and this will give the man a pension of a shilling a day, which was the amount of pension settled in 1806, at the expiration of the periods of seven, six, and five years. Besides, the soldier has the chance, if a well behaved man, of receiving • bounty of 51. at the end of his service, while the warrants Mined by government hold out every adeentege to non-commkeioned officers, as well as good conduct allowanese, after having served that period of years. All these rewards becoming known, I conclude the men will become so inured to those habits and qualities which are characteristic of the British soldier, and ea attached to a profession in which they enjoy each comforts, and advantages not enjoyed by men of the same class is other walks of life, as easily to be induced to re-enlist, and that is all I regain, all I desire, namely, that we may have the airier el the men dun the whole period they are canal& of sanitte. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord spoke of emameemilln&dleirs. I do not argue for the sake of the commemlbeMeses, but I ask for . the sake of the public service that you de not risk the loss of your old soldiers ; and I give you we masons for supposing that they will not be lust by this 1111. It is perfectly true that some inconvenience was felt Ain the arrangement of 1806, at the termination of the Stet period in 1813. Sonic initcarsolow was felt siersquenos of men then getting their i "coo semi a bounty to receive. It is vas tbli sr , - - -•t wee . bat, --.• lords, it __ . .a diseharge snme inonoYenierwe my , • wee got the bettor o 4 es other isinnw...enteee have been, sod a. inearrenieuees of that kind will always be, in the British army. (Chows). The great thing le to haws the servkes of good men, and It you get that, I costae that I don't an much fot • little insouyealenea. EOM, hear). As to what my noble Mend hes elated f the expense and isms venison* of bringing home men teem distant colonies, the government is perfectly aware of it, but such inoonveniences most be provided for. If this moisture is agreed to, a vast number at peewee think that it will vastly improve the ser vice. Hach be the result, lam sure I shall be veryhappy. (A laugh). All I can say is, that if parliament pass it, I will do my best to any it into execution (loud cheers); and being convinced that it may be adopted without risk of losing the services of our old soldiers, and being certain that the wish of the government, as well as my own, is to retain three services, I earnestly recommend to your lordships to let this measure per. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl is en trusted with another measure respecting the pensioners I have no objection to their employment, but I beg to guard your lordships against believing that pensioners are at all to be compared to the veterans of whom we have been talking. (Hear, hear.) Thom veterans are the leaders of their regiments, the mainstay of the service. (Hear, hear.) Pensioners may be very good men, but they are not the men of whom I have been talking, who are the heart and soul, the life and courage of the regiment. My conviction is, that such men will not be lost by the ope ration of this bill, but that they will be induced to re-enlist. My lords, I entirely agree with the noble ours observations respecting military punishments, and I sincerely hope that circumstances may enable us to diminish corporal punish ment until at last it be entirely superseded. (Hear, hear.) The mutiny bill; lately posited, contains a provision calcu lated to diminish that punishment, namely, one enabling the Olken to commute it for another description of punish ment. Use will be made of these powers, and I hope the result will be a gradual diminution, until an end is put en tirely to a system which is very disagreeable to the feeling of this country. (Hear, hear.) My opi- 1 nion u, however, that this punishment, or any other 1 punishment. has nothing to say, nothing to do, with the 1 question of limited or unlimited enlistment, or with the character of the army. The regularities of discipline, its necesstry severities, the hardships of the men in distant and colonial service, are what affect the army, but this or that description of punishment has little or no effect. What I wish tone. in the army, as in other classes of society, is, good conduct produced, not by punishment, but by good treatment and justice. (Hear, hear.) I believe that these effects can be produced. I believe that the system of educa tion adopted by government will have a great effect in pro ducing this good conduct, and in rendering the soldier aware of those benefits of his position which he en joys over the mime clue of men in other con ditions of life. All these circumstance, tend to convince me that this measure will not have the effect apprehended by my noble friend ; and therefore, my lords, I again entreat your lordship* to pus the bill. (Hear.) The Duke of RICHMOND believed that the intention of government in pro • this measure was to ameliorate the condition of the dier, but he very much doubted whether it would be attended with that result. He denied that the present system of enlistment was slavery for life; wi'h two good-conduct marks, the soldier might now obtain his discharge at the end of twelve years. Though the noble duke had recommended their lordships to support this mea sure, he had only done so in the belief that it would not de mice the army of the old soldiers, in other words, that the limited enlistment would have no effect. Lord STRAFFORD next addressed the hove at consider. able length but he could not be heard in the gallery. He I was understood to support the second reading of the bill. The Hari of ROSS E expressed his belief that this measure would not have the effeet of retaining the old soldiers in the service, and on that ground he should oppose it. His re marks applied principally to the cavalry. After the strong sad impressive warnings that hod been given to their lord ships, he hoped they would not consent to the adoption of the measure The Duke of CLEVELAND opposed the bill. He be lieved that the army never was in a more efficient stare ; and he had been surprised to hear from the noble earl (Earl Grey) opposite that such a change as the one now proposed was needful. Vr - ciIiTANLEY felt that as he did not belong to the service, it was almost presumption on his pert to venture to offer a few observations upon the bill now under considera tion, especially as the measure had the support of his noble friend the gallant duke at present at the heal of the army. The noble and gallant duke had intimated his intentioa to vote for the second reading of the bill, and he (Lord Stan ley) well knew the effect such an announcement must have upon the house. Still he must remind their lordships that the noble and gallant duke had said that this was a measure of doubtful utility, and of no inconsiderable hazard, (Hear, hear.) He (Lord Stanley) thought it would fail to realise the expectations which the noble earl opposite (Earl Grey) anticipated, and that it risked unnecessarily and unwisely that state of things by which had been brought together the best and most efficient army which the world could show at the present moment. In short, the measure ran the risk of doing evil without holding out any reason able prospect of attaining those advantages which had been pointed at by the noble earl in his to-night. If the at was unobjectionable; if speech b was right, wise, or judicious ; if it was desirable to try the experiment of limited enlistment, there was the means already of making it. The precedent far this bill was the measure introduced by Mr Wyndham in 1806, • measure which the noble duke at the table (the Duke of Wellington) had declared to be a failure. And when that menus) was discussed, objections were taken, repeatedly urged and never answered, that admitting the experiment of limited enlistment to be reasonable, the crown had already:full power by its own authority and prerogative to make the experiment without seeking the previous sanction of parliament. (Hear, hear.) The pre seat, therefore, was not an enabling but • restraining bill, by which the prerogative of the crown would be restricted. The crown had now the prerogative t. declare the term of enlistment end the mode in which the army should be recruited, and it was unwise and hazardous thus to interfere with the executive goverment by declaring by act of parlia ment that hereafter men should not cilise except for limited service. But what were the objects which the noble earl (Earl Grey) expected to gain by this measure? The noble earl said it would make the service in the army more popular, and would introduce a better class of men into the service, and the uoble earl seemed to consider that it was not unimportant to have a large portion of the population trained to arms, ready to assist in time of need. Now the first hour and a half of the noble earl s speech had been occupied in statements exceedingly interesting and im portant, but still they had not the smallest reference to any one of the provisions of the bill now ender consideration —they did not contain the shadow of an argument bearing upon the measure. On the contrary, their tendency went to show that in consequence of the improvements introduced for the comforts and condition of the soldier, the bill was wholly unnecessary. Could any man, conversant with the history of the country, hazard a comparison between the condition of the army in 1806, when Mr. Wyndham introduced his bill, and the army of the year 1847 ? In God's name let improvements go on, reduce corporal punishments—improve the system of recruiting—establish regimental schools and form regimental libraries—upon these questions all were agreed ; but these were not now the subjects for consideration. The question the house had now to consider was, whether or not the enlistment of men for a limited period of service would render the *urice in the army more popular than it was at present? When Mr. Wyndhiun's bill of 1806 was brought forward, this country was in the midst of • formidable, bloody, and protracted war. Recruits sufficient to supply the vacancies created in warfare could not be obtained, and as a last resource enlist ment for • limited period was adopted. But were there any such difficulties now? The noble earl opposite (Earl Grey) said that service in the army was unpopular. Where was the proof of its unpopularity? He (Lord Stanley) knew that in the course of last year 37,000 recruits had been en listed and passed, and that between 12,000 and 13,000 more had enlisted, but were rejected, Was this a proof of the unpopularity of the service? (Hear, hear.) It the govern ment thought it deakable again to try the experiment of limited I enlistment, if the noble duke at the head of the army thought it safe that the experiment should be again made, on God's name let them do so by an order from the Horse Guards, without calling upon parliament to interfere in matters which ought properly to be left upon the responsibility of the executive government. But the noble earl opposite (Earl Grey) thought that this measure would make the army po pular, and that a better clam of men would in consequence enter the service. He (Lord Stanley) doubted it. The noble duke (Wellington), in that pithy manner in which he always spoke, said he should be very glad to see that this measure brought • better class of men into the service, but he very much doubted whether such would be the case, and with the noble duke he (lead Steal.") concurred in that r: Had this country not at the present moment as well-conducted, orderle, and disciplined an army as any na tion in the world. Was it sought to improve the army by bringing into its ranks a better educated elms ? In the first plea he doubted whether they would get them, and fa the next he still more doubted whether, if educated area smut in, they would makebetter soldiers. The noble earl mid it would be of great advantage to have the population of this country trained to arms. This was, however, a question open to grave argument and serious consideration ; and though he concurred in the plan adopted by his noble and gallant friend, Viscount Hsrdinge, with respect to the em bodiment of the pensioners he doubted the wisdom of that suggested by the noble ea rl. The noble earl had in his apnea told the existing army that the service was one of slavery for life ; was that language fitting a member of the government to use ? (Hear, hear.) Was it not language calculated injuriously to a ff ect the discipline of the service (Hear, hear.) In s hort, was not this • measure founded upon a precedent which the highest authority (the Duke of Wellington) had declared to be a signal failure ? With regard to deeertion ; from whence did it proceed ? Did it arise from length of service ? Was it meet frequent among the old soldiers ? or was it most 0301131011 among the recruits of a single year ? He held in his head a return which stated that the total number of desertions in the army in one year (1840) was 1,757, and of these 1,177 were recruits under the first year who were sick of the laborious task of learning their profession' 170 were under two years ; 109 trader three years ; and 212 were soldiers of fire years stand ing. What ground was there for supposing that desertion would be checked by this measure ? Let him call the atten tion of their lordships to the duties and distribution of the army, which now, in a time of peace, was sub ect to incessant labour and privation, tad more than half of it wasabroad. It hai been the mai/s wish sf his noble friend (tlie Duke of Wellington), and of recessive adminis trations, so to form the establishment of the army that every soldier should be ten years abroad and five years at home, bet that proportion had not been obtained. Foe twelve years out of ammo, they were abroad in every variety of climate. Supposing this term of enlistment to be in existence ; after nine years of service, soldier wee sent to Canada, and when the period of his discharge arrived, circumstances occurred, not irer,lint which made it necessary that it should be re , fused him, he became dissatisfied, and the probability was r that such a man, at the most valuable period of his service, quitted it by desertion. The noble earl said that they ought to be detained a year beyond their time:during peace, and two years during war. What was war ? The operations on the river Plate were net war ..—or the oceureenees in New Zealand were not war; yet any abstraction from the number, of the army would have caused inconvenience there. The operations in China were not war; only an armed negociatioa, according to noble lords opposite. The noble earl profited to be very much obliged to his noble friend (the Earl of of EUenborough) for suggesting an amendment on this point, and he intended to substitute the word " emergency" for that of " war." He (Lord Stanley) did not think that this mended the matter. How was the soldier to know that his commanding °deer was justified in refusing him his discharge, on account of an " emergency." There might be peace, but war might be on the point of breaking out, and it might be desirable to have an efficient body of men ready, and yet no measures were to be taken to excite suspicion. Well! a tenth of the efficient men of a regiment demand their discharge, and they were refused ; the commanding officer would then be obliged to state that there was as emergency. The soldier might dispute that there was any emergency, end might bring his officer before a court of law, on the ground that he was unjustly depriving him of his discharge, and the court would have to decide whether there was such an " emer gency" or not, as warranted his officer iu detaining him. The noble earl in persuading their lordships to accept this bill, said that it would induce commanding officer, to con sult the comforts of the men more. He (Lord Stanley) should he ashamed to think that any commanding officer was insensible to the comforts of the men serving under him. (Hear, hear.) He believed that all the improvement which had taken place, had been wrung from successive administrations by the repeated demands of commanding officers. (Hear, hear.) What inducements to the soldier had the commanding officer in his power? None, except those of favour, or relaxation of discipline. (Hear, hear.) He ought to apologise to their lordships for having, as a civilian, made so many observations on such a subject. He looked to the probable consequences of this measure, and the experience of the pest, in which a bill fur limited enlistment, which was brought in 1806 and was abandoned in 1808, satis fied him that great risk was incurred yet. The noble earl's argument as to the improved comforts of the sol dier, showed that this measure was unnecessary, and, above all, if the experiment was to be tried, let it rest with the executive government and be done by constitutional means; but let not parliament be forced into an interference with the question, and be charged with a responsibility which did not belong to them ; end, es the noble earl would have an opportunity of trying the experiment whether the bill was rejected or not he could not complain that his views would be put in a disadvantageous position, and he called on the house, notwithstanding the speech and the vote of his noble friend (the Duke of Wellington), to let the responsibility of the measure rest on tho advisers of the crown, and to refuse to meet to the second reading of the bill. (Cheery.) The Earl of HARDWICKE said thin bill applied equally to marines u to the army, for their enlistment was con ducted on the same principle. He begged to call their lordships attention to its effect on tbit branch of the service, and declared that limited enlistment would be most detrimental to the marines. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE (who was very indis tinctly heard indeed) said, that in bringing forward this measure the government bad not done so under the impression that anything is the eircumstancts of the present time justified them in incurring any risk connected with the military branches of this country. Pacific as was the policy of the present government, and successful as had the late government beea in maintaining pacific relations with Europe, they were not the less persuaded that they were in circumstances, and at a time, which reiuired that the cha racter of our defences should be examined into, and that there was no justifiable reason for reducing the military power, but rather for adding to their strecgth. He thought this measure, by popularising the army, and by enlarging the field out of which it was recruited, rendered it a more valuable and efficient support to the country. If he had thought otherwise, he•would have withdrawn his support from it. Nay, he would go further, and say, that if high authorities, if the noble duke at the head of the army had, either in that house fir out of it, held the lan guage which bad been put into Lis mouth by the ' noble lord he should have hesitated at agreeing to the mea sure, and probably have withheld his support from it. But not only had no such opinion been expressed by the noble duke, but experience was in its favour. Under the warrant of 1R39, which gave opportunities and facilities for discharge, no difference was made, and there was an average of only 2.5 free discharges annually; nor had he any apprehension that the number would be increased. He had had an op portunity of consulting some officers who had returned from Canada, and they stated that a large portion of the army there were entitled to their discharge, and not one of them had deserted, while all the caws of desertion were those of men who had no hope of being discharged. Lord BROUGHAM concurred entirely with, and went even further than his noble friend behind him (Lord Stanley), in the alarm he had expreseed as to the conse quences of this measure. If he realy felt that his opinions in this respect were diametrically opposed to those of the illustrious duke (Wellington), if he could for a moment be lieve that this bill was sanctioned by the high authority— the highest authority in the country upon military matter. —of bin noble friend, he should feel not only great diffidence, but absolute shame, in [presuming to set up his own views upon the subject. But this bill woo none of the noble duke's —it had not been recommended by the comeose , - - • chief—on the contrary, the ■oblo' duke was the last person in England who would have volunteered such a recommendation. (Hear, hear.) And if any man, knowing the great and wise caution of the noble duke, his habitual circumspection, no large and so safe for his party and his country, if any man knowing thin could have for a moment doubted whether it were possible for t►e noble duke to recommend such a measure, with its necessary and all but fatal consequences, let that man look to the manner in which the noble duke had given his support, his economic— he would not call it parsimonious or stingy—but his mode rate, his guarded support, to the measure, accompanied by reasons which, though not absolutely against the measure, told nothing in its favour, and by warnings evidently meant to maintain his own consistency, to protect his own character, and at the same time to deter the government from the course in which they had embarked; and though in effect he had told them that if they were determined to meddle and change he must give them his vote, he had, at the same time, advised them to leave the army alone. All experience was against limited enlistment; and it was his firm conviction, that had Mr. Wyndham lived to see the result of his measure, he would have changed his opinion; and it was well known that nothing had so much endangered the ministry of which Mr. Wyndhant was a member during the first six months of its existence, as that measure for limiting the period of enlistment. But it was said the object of the government in the present bill was to popularise the army. If that object was to be achieved by altering the period of enlistment, it might be done without this bill. As the law stood, the crown had the power of enlisting men for seven, fourteen, or any other term. The commander-in-chief might now, if he pleased, make an order reversing Lord Hill's order, which abolished limited enlistment, and forbid any enlistment in future except for limited service. (Hear, hear.) But he (Lord Brougham) denied that experience was in favour of limited enlistment, or that th►t was the means of popularising the army, while, on the other hand, he believed that it would, by inducing discontent in the mind of the soldier, who had been told that night by the noble lord that his life was a state of slavery, er.danger the efficiency of the service. All that had been said in that house would be discussed In every canteen in the kingdom and in the colonies—in every regiment, European or sepoy, in India; all would know that it was the opinion of the house of lords that the soldier was hardly treated, and that the pen sion allowed was too small. Objecting, as he did, to this measure, as restraining the power of the crown in dealing with the enlistment of the soldier, and ss placing the crown cad the army in an invidious, not to say a perilous position in regard to each other, believing that the bill would be altogether fruitier, unless for mis chief, he should resist it. (Hear, bear.) Earl GREY observed, that what the noble and learned lord had arid in regard to Mr. Wyndham's bill was wholly romance. The noble and learned lord had said " leave the army alone, your interference will only impairits e ffi ciency ;" but the. was the argument which ha d been used against ell the various improvements which had been introduced rince the war. There was one point on which he had hoped the noble and learned lord would by accident have been right in the gene ral tissue of error of which his speech consisted, and that was the point of law. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) But the noble and learned lord had asserted that the government had no right to do what they were about to do by act of parlia ment, but should have done it by the exercise of the royal prerogative. That charge came strangely from the noble and learned lord who oa a former evening had found fault with an order in council which was autho rised by act of parliament. He could inform the noble and learned lord that in time of peace the crown no means of enlisting troops exoept by ac t o f par liament, and if this bill did not pass, government would not have power to enlist for ten years' service. (Hear, heat.) There was one other point on which he . (Earl Grey) had been misrepresented, aad on which he wished to otter some explanation to the house. He had been licensed of repre senting the condition of the British soldier as one of slavery. He had said ne such thing. His argu ment had been, that practically men were not enlisted for life at present, that they could leave at the end of twelve years, and that, therefore, it wee unwise to keep up a system of enlistment which appeared to retain them for life. At that hour of the night he should net detain the house by any further obeervations. After a few words from Lord BROUGHAM in explanation, the house divided. For th. second reading —Coot este—Present 64 Proxies 44-108 Nos-contents—Present 63 Proxies 41— 94 Majority l4 Their lordships adjourned at hall-past 12 o'clock HOUSE OF COMMONS.—MONDAY, Aram 28. The Speaker took the ehair at four o'clock. PRIVATE BURNES& ..... BEOOND READlNo97loncachire, Menke, and North Wale. Dralnane and Inolotare Company's Incorporation; Limerick Docks and Harbour Ma. REFOlTT73.—Ayrshire and Gelb:may Railway (Smlthnown to Dal mellington) ; Colchester, Pour Valley, Sudbury, and Halatead Rail way Hams to the Ipswich and Bury St. Edmund's Railway Com piny); Wolverhampton Bata; Hart:noel West Horton/ and Dock (Dock Wes) PUBLIC BUSINESS. SECOND READWCS.—Inntled Property lasproverneent (Irebind), Transference of Lends (Soitland ), Heritable Securities for Debt (Scot land) Ma COMMlTTEES.—Regietertng Births, kn. (Scotland), Marriage (Scotland). Service of Detre (Scotland) Bills. TRIBE) BEADlNG.— Lunatic Asylum. BBL WESTMINSTER AND LAMBETH BRIDGE BILL. On Ceptain Ptemiunith proposing the second reading of this bill, Sir R. H. INGLIS took the opportunity of presenting to the house a petition from the Lord Archbishop of Canterbury, praying that the house would not consent to pass this bill, which, he complained, would have the effect of giving abso lute and compulsory powers to the sole promoter of the bill, Sir Samuel Brown, to deprive persons of their property at either side of the bridge, for a consideration, and to con struct a suspension bridge. It also stated that Sir Samuel Brown had, if he pleased, sufficient means to construct such a bridge without the powers of an act of parliament to assist him. Ile would remind the house that, in reference to the inex pediency of such a measure, there were great engineer ing difficulties to be encountered, when they considered that it was to be a suspension bridge. He never would give his sanction to the construction of a suspension bridge ; tor their experience of latter years ought to have taught them that that ahoy. all other things was one which they ought to dis countenance. The right hon. baronet concluded by moving that the bill be read that day six months. Sir H. DE L. EVANS said that the arcumessta brought forward by the right hon. baronet against the bill were argu ments which were only fit for the consideration of a com mittee up stairs, and were no reasons why the house should refuse to read the bill a second time. Mr. NICHOLL said that he believed that the promo ter of the bill was one of a firm who possessed iron works in Newtridge, Glamerganshire, and sought for this bill to enable him to dispose of their chain cables. The house divided.—For the second reading 26 Against it The bill was accordingly thrown out. COMPLAINT AGAINST A MAGISTRATE. Mr. WAK LEY presented, according to notice, a petition from Mary Young, of Fincham, Norfolk, complaining of the conduct of • magistrate. He wished to ask the Secre tary for the Home Department whether he had made any +n guinea into the matter, and whether any compensation would be afforded to the parties complaining? Mr. R. HO UGSON having presented a petition from the magistrate in question, praying for inquiry into the facts al leged in the petition, Sir G. GREY said it was the first time the case had been brought under his notice, and he would cause an inquiry to be made into the facts stated. Mr. WAKLEY said he had sent the magistrate, whose conduct was complained of, a copy of the petition three weeks ago. REGISTRATION OP BIRTHS, &e., AND MAR RIAGES, &c. (S,OTLAND) BILLS. Sir A L. HAY wished to ask the Lord Advocate whether he intended to alter or omit the 12th clause in the I Registration. &c. (Scotland), Bill ; and whether he contem plated proposing an and, if so, what, alterations in the Scotch Marriage Bi ll? The LORD ADVOCATE, in answer to the question of his hon. and gallant friend, begged to say that it was not his intention to insist on the 12th clause in the Registration Bill. (Hear, hear.) The grounds upon which it was intro duced had been very much misrepresented, and he doubted whether the best interests of the schoolmasters had been consulted in the opposition made to it. He should have another opportunity of explaining himself ful'y on this sub ject, with reference to certain returns to be laid before the I house. At present he should merely say that he proposed to withdraw the clause. With respect to the Marriage Bill, he had to state that he retained the views on which the bill had been framed; namely, that the only modes of contract ing marriage should be by solemnisation in presence of a clergyman, or by registration the registration in the last case being essential to the marriage and forming the mar riage; and in the former cue, the registration, though not essential, being enforced by penalties. The object of the bill bad been in some instances misunderstood, and in others misrepresented ; but the amendment s which he proposed to introduce would, he trusted, be so clear as to obviate any possibility of misconstruction. With reference to objections which had been taken in some quarters to the measure, he proposed to carry it farther than he would otherwise have ventured. Though it did introduce great re strictions upon the law of marriage, allowing mar riage only in one or other of two ways, and in both in. stances securing the most direct and irrefragable evidence of marriage, he had been very strangely charged with intro ducing greater laxity into the mode of constituting that re lation. He meant therefore to prevent the contraction of marriage by registration unless both or one at least of the contracting parties had been resident in the district in which the marriage was to be registered for a certain number of days, acd also unless notice had been given to the registrar, by which a more effectual publication of the parties' inten tion to marry might be made then could now be made by the proclamation of banns. He did not propose to affect by nullity any marriage which was either contracted by solem nisation before a clergyman or by registration, but he should make otherwise what he trusted would be effectual provision against the contraction of marriage, unless there had been previous residence and previous publication. He would not interfere with the proclamation of banns, but he would give a more effectual alternative, such as he presumed could not I be objected to by those who wished some previous publics. *ion, or who knew st the same time that the proclamation of banns gave in reality none. If he made it lees likely that parties should marry by registra tion than before a clergyman, he shoul d not think that an objection to the measure. He would gain at the same time, an object of great importance—that of putting an effectual stop to Gretna-green marriages. He had only to add at present, that he should propose severe penalties against any one who should personate the character of a clergyman ; and that courts was the more just and expedient with reference to the changes he proposed. The bill would be found, he trusted, fully to explain its previsions, and he hoped he might be allowed, without interrupting the course of business which his noble friend had prescribed for the evening, to go into committee for the purpose of making pro forma the amendments he had alluded to, so as to let the bill gn down to Scotland before the 30th of this month. (Hear, hear.) In answer to a question from Sir R. H. Nome, The LORD ADVOCATE said he should press forward both bills with all convenient despatch. Sir G. CLERK was understood to withdraw his notice with reference to the omission of the 12th clause in the re gistration bill. Both bills subsequently went through cornmitteepreforma, were reported, and ordered to be re-committed. AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS. In answer to a question from Mr. FORBES, Mr. T. M. GIBSON said a bill would shortly be intro dusted on the subject of agricultural statistics. COUNTY COURTS ACT. Mr. BOUVERIE wished to ask the Attorney-General a question with reference to the County Courts Act. It ap peared that by one of the clauses in the act, litigant parties and their wives might give evidence under certain dr cuniatances in the cause, and it affirmed that a judge of one of these courts had recently decided that the parties might give evidence in their own cases, but only when called on to do so by their opponents. He wished to know whe ther this was the proper construction of the clause ? The ATTORNEY GENERAL, who was indistinctly heard, was understood to say, that, as bo read the clause, it appeared that the plaintiff might call the defendant to prove his cue, end vice versa ; or that the li • igant parties and their wives might examine themselves in support of their own calm_ PRISONS BILL, AND CUSTODY OF OFFENDERS BILL. Sir G. GREY said he did not intend to propose that the house should go into committee on these bills, if the other business extended beyond 9 o'eloek, and he would then post pone them until Friday EMIGRANTS TO THE UNITED STATES. Lord O. RENTINCK wished to draw the attention of the noble lord the first minister of the crown to a bill which had recently become law in the states of New York and Massa chusseth., by which the captain of a ship containing emigrants was obliged to enter into a bond to the amount of 300 dol lars, and the shipper to the extent of 1,000 dollars that no emigrants should become chargeable as paupers for 10 years. I No doubt the object of this law was to drive all the paupers Ito Canada and Newfoundland ; and he begged to ask the noble lord whether he knew of such an act having passed, and, if so, whether any provision had been made for suck ' emigrants, to prevent their being subject to privation ? Lord J. RUSSELL had not heard of the paring of the bill to which his noble friend referred, but he was aware that such bill had been under consideration, and he under stood the shipping interests in America bad been greatly opposed to it lie had applied to the American mt• nist,r in this country, who stated that he did not think emigrants would be refused admission into New York or Boron, and that they would be subject to the laws which had hitherto applied to them. Be (Lord J. Russell) had no doubt that the tendency of such a measure would be to in- Meese the emigration of paupers to Canada; and the government had made provision for greater aid than had been given in any former year, in a votx for taking care of emigrants in hospitals, and forwarding them on, but it might be found necessary to propose some further measure en the subject. THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 27, 1847. GOVERNMENT SCHEME OF EDUCATION. On the report on the grant of 100,0001. for the purposes of education being brought up, Lord J. RUSSELL wished to explain a personal matter, with reference to which a statement had been made by an hoe. friend of his on a former night. The bon member for Carlisle had stated that, on the 14th or 15th of this month, application had been made to him (Lord J. Russell) on the part of the catholic bishops, that they were anxious to see him before the 19th inst., but that he had declined to grant them an interview. He should be sorry to be *apposed to have been guilty of any went of courtesy towards the Roman catholic bishops; and he would, therefore, state what really had °marred. On the 17th inst., after a meeting of the cabinet council, and when he was about leaving town to peas the Sunday a few miles in the country, carrying with him a large bundle—(a laugh)—of pamphlets on the subject of education--(hear, and laughter) —he received a letter from Bishop Grifilths, in which he requested the honour of an interview on the subject of the education of the children of poor catholic", before the introduction of any measure on the subject; the note was dated, Bloomsbury-square, 17th April. He (Lord J. Russell) understood that the applica tion had reference to the education of the children of poor catholics; and having, on the following Monday morning, to meet his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on some matters of finance, and to state the measure which intended to propose on the subject of education in the afternoon, he did not think it absolutely necessary that he should see the Roman Catholic bishops either on Sunday or Monday morning (hear, hear) ; and if he had done so, he could not have 'Bumbled the members of the Privy Council and made any alteration in the minutes. He, consequently, in reply, rested that he would receive the Roman catholic bishops before he introduced say measure with reference to the education of poor catholic,. He would only add that he did not intend to be at all uncourtectus to Bishop Griffiths, for whom he had great respect, or any other of the Roman catholic bishops. In moving the order of the day, he begged leave to state that nothing was farther from the intention of the government than the exclusion of Roman catholic@ from the benefit of grants for the purposes of education; but they thought it necessary to have fresh minutes on the subject, and consider it very carefully. (Hear, bear.) They had declared that they did not think it right that any cler gyman of the Church of England should receive any part of the grant which had been proposed as it would appear like an endowment of the established church under another name—(hear, hear); and similar provision must be made with respect to Roman catholic,, but he understood there were orders of Roman catholic—of whom the christian brethren was an example—who were not in holy orders, and who undertook the business of education. It was a matter which would require a great deal of consideration, and any minutes on the subject must be framed with great care. The government would shortly pay attention to the subject, but whether they would be able in a short time to frame minutes, or whether it would not be necessary to have some inspection and report, he was not then prepared to state. He could only say that they had no intention of excluding the Roman catholic', and he hoped the measure would be made as generally beneficial to all closets as possible. (Hear.) Bir Cf. CLERK begged to ask the noble load whether the parochial schools in Scotland would derive any benefit from the measure ? ' Lord J. RUSSELL said that point had net been sub mitted to the privy council. The intention of the grant was that aid should be given to support voluntary societies and increase voluntary contributions ; and he should therefore think that the schoolmaster who had a stipend by law would not be entitled to receive any part of that grant. It might, however, be a subject for conaideration whether the stipends of parochial schoolmasters in Scotland might not be increased, and whether they might not be allowed some retiring pen sion. Sir W. MOLESWORTH, in moving the amendment of which he had given notice, said the noble lord had not read the last passage in his note to Bishop Griffiths, which was that the government had no immediate intention of promul gating minutes on the subject of education with reference to Roman Catholics. He was not actuated by any feeling of dislike to the government measure; on the con • teary, he advocated the interference of the state in the education of the people, and thought the government plan was a step in the right direction. The simple object of his resolution was to enable the Roman catholics to participate in the grant for education—a proposi tion so exceedingly fair that be could not conceive what ob jection there could be to it. It might be said that the Roman catholic did not want asaisiance. On the contrary, he believed that the Roman catholic population of the coun try stood more in need of assistance than any others. (Hear, hear.) He was informed th It 10,000 Roman catholic chil dren were unprovided with daily instruction in Manche mer alone. In Liverporl, at least 6,000 were in want of iruitrue lion, and the same want existed in other parts of England. In London there were from 150,000 to 200,000 catholics, of whom 120,000 at least, or four out of every five, formed the most wretched portion of the community. It was evident ,1 that the cathoLcs stood in great nerd of education. But it was said that there was uo application for assistance made on behalf of the Roman catholic!. Now, on the contrary, the Ro man esthetics did apply for assistance,through Mr. Langdale, who acted under the authority of the vicars apostolic in the first instance to the right hon. baronet in June last, and after wards to the noble lord on his succeeding to office. The whole tenor of the correspondence which passed between Mr. Langdele and Mr. Shuttleworthahowed that the Roman catholic were not only willing to receive assistance, but were under the belief that they would receive it and it was only on the 16th inst. that Mr. Shuttleworth brought the negotiation to a close by referring to the minute of the 3rd of December, 1839, which required " that a portion of the scriptures should be daily read." And this, oncoming to Mr. Shuttleworth'e interpretation, meant " the entire bible, in the authorised version." This, of course, excluded the Roman catholic' from any portion of the grant. He could understand the feelings of the slaveholder in refusing educa tion to his slave ; he could understand the feelings of the bigot, who would make all believe like himself . he could enter into the feelings of their forefathers, in their contests for civil and religious liberty: he could understand a great and wise statesman like Cromwell forming the project of destroying the Roman catholic' of Ireland : but he could not understand the feelings of those who, in the present day, would exclude Roman catholic, from the minor rights, after having been admitted to the highest rights and privileges of citizenship. The right hon. gentleman the member for Edinburgh had called this a measure of perfect impartiality. He hoped the right honourable gentleman would vote for admitting 800,000 of his fellow subjects into this most important system. He agreed with the right hon. baronet (Sir R. Peel) that the present grant made the greatest difference with respect to the Roman catholic, and that if they alone, of all christian sects, were excluded, they would have just ground of complaint. The noble lord the member for the West Riding of Yorkshire, and the right lion. gentleman the Secretary of Stare for the Home Department, admitted in their speeches the justice of the claims of the Roman catholic' ; and if the noble lord the member for London distinctly declared that he would take their claims into his consideration this session, he would withdraw his motion. He thought with the right hon. baronet (Sir R. Peel) that this ought to be done before the general election. (Hear, hear.) Let them not go before the people OA craven cowards shrinking from a great question —let them tell the people their honest convictions--let them show by their votes that they were in earnest—boldly meet them on the hustings—call upon them to ratify their conduct, and (said the hon. member) " by heaven they will do so in the teeth of their own prejudices." (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman concluded by moving, " That any minutes of the committee of the Privy Council en education, or other regu lation', which exclude Roman catholic, from participating in env grant of public money for purposes of education by requiring in all schools which received such grants of public money the use of the authorised version of the Scriptures, are inexpedient, and ought to be rescinded." Sir G. GREY said he had hoped, alter the declaration of the government and of his noble friend that night, that the hon. gentleman would have been content to leave this matter in the hands of the government. (Hear, hear.) His noble friend stated, sod he again pledged himself, to take the subject into his early consideration, with a view to carry out the declared intentions of the government, and also what be believed to be the good will of the house. (Hear, hear.) He did not think, however, that the hon. gentleman adopted the mode which was most likely to lead to a satisfactory settlement (Hear, hear.) The only matter to be considered was not the minute of 1839, an the hon. gentle man seemed to think. Whether the interpretation of that minute was correct or not, whether the " whole Scriptures" would include the Douay version or not, the government would have to consider many other matters in framing a minute for the purpose of admitting the Roman catholic' to the benefice of en educational grant. When that minute was underoonsi deration, it would then be time to express an opinion upon it. With respect to bringing Leeward such • minute this sesaiou, he could give no definite or distinct pledge. He could assure thc hon. gentleman that the government did sot do so in order to get some advantage at the coming election. On the contrary, if they looked to their own in terest'', it would be better if they could state at once the specific and precise terms on which the grant to the Roman esthetics would be proposed, than that they should go to the hustings with a vague apprehension that they were going to do something which they had not the courage to avow. (Hear, hear.) He could only say that they pledged them selves to an early consideration of the question, and that no delay would take place in laying the minute, when it was prepared, on the table of the house. (Hear, hear.) Lord H. VANE said it was impossible not to conclude alike from the speech of the noble lord at the head of the government, en well as from the whole tone and temper of that of his right hon. friend (Sir G. Orey), that tier Majesty's government would allow but very little time to elapse before they introduced a minute for the purpose of effecting the object contemplated by the hon. baronet. Sir It. INGLIS said that whether introduced by the hon. baronet who had just called their attention to it, or by the noble lord, the present, or by the right hon. baronet, the late, l'rime Minister—introduced, in short, under any cir cumstances, at any time, and by any man, the motion would have his determined opposition. The hon. member had claimed support in no measured terms from his right hon. friend the late Prime Minister of England, who, as he (Sir It. Inglis) grieved to think, had in the present instance bid mere highly for popular applause (hear, hear) and for the support of the Roman catholic bodp, and perhaps of the extreme liberals of every sect or persuasion, than his noble friend at the head of the government, as he ventured to hope, would ever permit himself to do. (Hear, hear.) Seeing that the two great leaders in that house were united in this cause, he was sure it well became the people of this country, and it became the house as representing the people, to bear fully in mind what was the intention, the deliberate and expressed intention, of those to whom the confidence of the country had been so largely conceded. (Hear, hear.) First of all, the education of the people was, by the constitution of the country, confided to the church ; next, it was confided to those who used the authorised version of the scriptures; now, it was proposed to extend it to all christians. (Hear, hear.) There, at any rate, his right hon. friend the late prime minister stopped. In reference to Roman catho ' lie christians, the right hon. baronet said, in substance, that he world not be a party to any compulsion which might place the noble lord, his successor in office, in any difficulty on that occasion. He hoped he might tell his right hon. friend that, so far from that being • legitimate apprehen sion, he indulr,ed the hope that not even all hie (Sir It. Peel's) participation and support would enable the noble lord Murry into operation a system so repugunt to the original genius of the constitution of England, and to the feeling pre vailing amongst the great mass of the people, if tested at that moment. Ho could not but feel, after hearing the statement made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, by the First Lord of the Trea sury for the present administration, and by the Secretary of State for the Rome Department of the last, that so far as the combined forces of those mem bers could secure such an obiect, the measure of which he bad spoken would be carried; but be believed that the feelings and principles of the people of England would be found absolutely and most strongly opposed to any measure for endowing or supporting education in the ROOMS catholic religion at the expense of the state, whence it must follow that they should educate and support priests of the Roman catholic religion. He could conceive no claim in favour of the one which would not equally apply in favour of the other. (Rear, hear.) Sir It. PEEL said—Sir, when my hon. friend exorcise, any opinion in this hose's, however emphatic may be the declaration of that opinion, I have such respect for his integrity and character, that I always believe he is expressing the opinion which he sincerely and minden thusly entertains—(hear, hear)—and I cannot but think that my bon. friend would show more of true toleration if he would en tend to others that principle which others are willing to apply to himself, sad to gave them wait for haying no other object in view, la espreseies epees= which may differ from his own, than to premed tee amble interest l and do justice between differed dress of her Majesty's subjects. (Cheers.) My hen. friend imputes to me that my object, in delivering my opinions on Friday night, was to outbid the noble lord, and to attempt to conciliate Roman catholic and liberal support. (Hear, hear.) of a personal nature in view, / Sir, I assure my hon. friend that he does me great Mita tioe ; for I have no object whatever of a political kind, la te that of outbidding the noble lord. (Hear, hear.) And if I u p° ou n t in ti t object ca re w l y h in eth ng er a i n t d be reen p n ru n d n e n n i t in (as g we sys te n ni nd o , f rstood), greatly k w al n o y y o d education, to express the opinion. which I took with rimed to the justice of not excluding the Roman catholic sub sets from a participation in its benefits. Sir, I think my 'ion. friend might have remembered the course which I took with regard to Maynooth, the opinions which I then expressed at considerable risk, and the great danger which we had to apprehend of the loss of popular favour or of office; and I think he might have remembered that between him and me there must be a total difference of opinion as to the prin ciples involved in giving aid to the Roman ratholies for the purpose of inatruction. (Hear.) I do no: believe that we are compromising our own faith by geeing that aid. (Cheers.) If I wanted a proof that my hon. friend ought to have done me that justice which I am willing t o render him, I find it in my hon. friend's own speech; for, after hunting out the statistical returns of the regio n ,. general, my hon. friend find. that we have grossly overrated the Roman catholic population of this country, and that, in fining the total population from the number of marriages, the whole number of Roman catholic' in England ought not to exceed 300,000. Well, be it so; my honourable friend shall be correct there are not more than 300,000 Roman catholic.. Why, what political object, then, can I have in view in recommending that justice should be done to the 1213th part of the population ? (Hear, hear.) Why, I do not find that—l will not use the worl concession—l do not find that any measures intended to improve the Roman Catholic population, are exceedingly popular, even in this house. (Hear, hear.) I recollect that almost within a week, a measure, which had before been sanctioned by a majority of only three, was exposed to a severer ordeal, and was lost, after discussion, by a majority of thirty-nine. So far, therefore, as the opinion of the house is en indication or the opinion of the country, I do not think my hon. friend can justly charge me with having attempted to promote any political object in the course I have taken with regard to the Roman catholic". (Hear, hear.) As to raining the support of the liberal body, so far as the dissenting interest is connected with that body, I greatly doubt whether expr ee si ons i n favour of the Roman catholic& are very likely to corciliate. (Hear, hear) But, in truth, I had no political object. I believe it to be just and politic to take the course which I recommended. Well, now, what are the imputations to which taking that course subjects me? Br the hon. member for limit there has been a charge made, riot of raslineis, not of impolicy, but of absolute infidelity. (Hear, hear.) This is not the place to speak on such subjects, and nothing which has fallen from that hon, gentleman shall induce me to say one word which would be disrespectful to him; but as foe infidelity, I cannot believe that that great God—l Pay it with all reverence—l cannot believe that that God, who is the " Author of peace, and lover of concord," who gave us this commandment, that we should " believe in the same of Jesus Christ," and "lore one another "—I cannot believe that that Almighty Being will think that we are fulfilling that commandment when we hate one another (hear, beer) and when we allow thousands and tens of thousands of children who ought, whatever be their sect, to be taught to believe in the name of Jesus Christ, to pass through life and to be ushered into eternity without having ever heard the name of Jesus Christ. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the present position of education in some parts of this country, it would be much better for us to make allowance for the ins perfections of each other, and to proceed on the assumption at least, that we are actuated by honest moti.m, although we may differ, not as to religion itself, hut as to the mea sures connected with religion which it may be desirable to adopt. (Cheers.) I doubt the justice, the policy, or the true charity of meeting measures of this nature with such charges as that of infidelity. (Cheers.) Now, sir, it has been my wish to avoid embarrassing the noble lord by taking any course which would diminish the chances of ultimate swans for this measure. I estimate fully all the difficulties with which he ie surrounded even in bringing forward a measure of such limited extent. My experience of office is too recent for me not to be hilly aware that the position of a minister or a government is different from that of private individuals. We can state what mea sures we think ought to be proposed, and on what principles they should be founded • but a minister who is anxious for the success of a particula r measure, is compelled to consider the obstructions which it may meet with, and he must content himself with something short of that absolute good which he would aim at were he placed is a different mention. (Hear.) I am surprised that the hon. baronet thould have claimed my support on this occasion. On a former occasion I stated distinctly my sentiments on the general question, but, at the same time, I stated that I should not concur in any motiom which would at all embarrass the further progress of this measure ; that I would not be a party to any compulsion being brought to hear on the government if the government showed an unwillingness to adopt that which I was disposed to support. (Hear, hear.) Now, I must say that I hope the hon. laronet will sot press his motion. (Cheers.) I do not my that for the par. pass of relieving myself from any difficulty, for I feel none whatever ; but after the avowal which was made by the right hon. gentleman the Seereeary of State for the Home Department, not on the compulsion of this motion, but voluntarily, two or three nights ago, and after the state ment made to-night by the noble lord, that the government concede the principle that Roman catholic, ere not to be excluded, but that they pledge themselves to bring forward a minute, when the matter luta been maturely considi red, for the purpose of including them, I must lay that I think the government have done nothing to them:aide them to eon fidenc*. PO that an opportunity should not be given them of proceeding with this measure without the obstruction of a hostile resolution. Sir, the right hon. gentleman sap, I think very properly, " I cannot pledge myself to the introduction of a measure at any particular time, but I give you a full &Nur ant* with respect to the principle." I can easily conceive that many communications will be necessary for the purpose of making the measure complete, end that it is much more likely to be satisfactory to that body for whose good it is intended, if opportunity for that purpose be given, than if the government is at once compelled by a vote of the House of Commons to introduce • minute. (Hear, hear.) I have little confidence in impromptu measures on such a subject as this. I do believe that it is the intention of the govern ment to do what is just; and haring that confidence, I cannot concur in a vote which would imply mistrust, and prevent them from having an opportunity of giving to the matter the consideration which it deserves. I do hope that I have now convinced my hon. friend that I have no such object as that of outbidding the noble lord. I disclaim any such intention; and so far from wishing to embarrass the noble lord with respect to the question of education. I have seen enough of the difficulties with which he bee had to contend not to feel desirous of ensuring for this measure ultimate success lather than making this subject the arena of any party or political contest. (Hear, hear.) Mr. V. SMITH expressed his regret that the measure had not originally included grants to Roman catholtee heals. Ntr. M. J. O'CONNELL, as a Roman catholic, tend. red. his thank. to the hon, baronet for bringing forward &quie ten, the discussion on which could not fail to be of great service. He regarded the assurance of the home-secretary very valuable, but at the same time he must express his great regret that the government had at all made the catho lic* exceptions to their general rule. (Hear, hear.) Mr. C. E. LAW said that in his opinion this amendment negatived the terms on which the measure had receivid the acquiescence of the house and the country. He thanked the government for what they had already done, but he could pledge himself to go no further, and he should cer tainly oppose the present amendment. Mr. LIDDELL said that in justice it was impossible, if the state undertook to educate the people, that they should refuse to educate those of the subjects of the state who were of the Roman catholic persuasion. But be was sufficiently satisfied with the declaration of the:members of the cabinet, to feel it unnecessary to vote for the amendment. Mr. M. °TERRA LL took leave to observe, that no body of men were more interested in education than the Roman catholic., who had suffered more than any class from the want of it. But the question was, was he satisfied with the declaration of the government or not ? He replied to that question M the affirmative, and he thought were he to vote in favour;of this motion, he should very little benefit his own persuasion, whilst he should undoubtedly do great injury to a cause which he was desirous of promoting. He should, therefore, certainlz give his voice against the amendment. Mr. M. MILNEB thought that when the hon. members for the universities considered that in India the British government gave money for the education of Mahometans, :bey ought not to blame him for voting in favour of the edu cation of Roman catholic", Mr. FORBES said, that, in giving his support to the government scheme, he was influenced by the consideration that it professed to instruct children in the holy scriptures. Mr. AGLIONBY advised the hon. member for South wark to withdraw his amendment. There was every reason to believe that ere long the interests of the Roman catholic*, in reference to education, would be properly cared fur by government. Mr. NEWDEGATE repelled the imputation, thst those who opposed this giving of education were inflamed by bigoted intolerance as to the Roman catholic*. Mr. BELLEW was indebted to the hon. mover of the amendment before the house, for bringing the *Onset more thoroughly under the observation of the house ; but he was so satisfied that the government would itself lose no time in providing education for the Roman catholic of this °punter, that he should vote with the government, if the bon. baronet proceeded to a division. Sir W. JAMES regretted that the noble lord had not brought forward a bolder and more comprehensive scheme. Mr. S. HERBERT thought it would have been well, ua doubtedly on principle, to have included the Roman cathnlics in this "theme; but this would have so greatly increased the difficulties of the measure as to have occasioned most unadvisable delay. (Hear, hear.) There was a difference between the state of this country and Ireland, as far as religion was concerned. There was one peculiarity in the case of Iceland, namely, that the peep)* were not subdivided into a variety of religious denomina tions. Speaking of Ireland numerically, it was a Roman catholic country, and it was therefore necessary they shoald occupy the largest share of the attention of any statesman who attempted to educate that nation. There existed is Ireland the Roman catholic, the preebyterian, and the esta blished churches, all them of whom were in some way recog nised by the state. But there was such a diversity of opinion he England, that by adopting the elan which was introduced in Irelan d, they would make the school-room the seine in which every political topic would be discussed. It would be unreasonable then to expect the noble lord to bring forward a measure which would not be wasaccap a ta n b ine le s to tep th in e in peo . p p ro le pe o f f direni this suite: