The Express. — London, England, 1853-05-11 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE. OF LORDS.—TUESDAT, MAY la. Vie Loan CrturrentAna tank his seat at 6 o'aleisk. PETITIONS PItECENTE CRYoTti. rAL ter.—By the Hal of GALLOWAY, Era Whitchurch, against the opening of the Cry-tal r.:aes as Sundays. Ay N of) rii.—By the Earl of GALLOWAY, from seve ral places, against continuing the grant to Mayn-mh. Otriatticcuts Or Tut Jews.—By the Earl er GALLO WAY, Sous a place not heard, against thv ci5:521 . 9110t the Jews to parliament. 5H6111141 . Couars.—By Lord BROUGHAM, from a place in Scotland, in fsvour of an ezteu , :cn cr the juris dictioa of sheriff.' courts. CONFERENCE. A meetsge was delivered from the House :f Commons, requesting • conference on the subject of the Tent mouth election. Their lordships consented to an :sr.,: 'date con ference, which accordingly took place. TRANSPORTATION OF CONVICTS. Furl GILEY,in rising to move • resolution.: which he had gives notice on this subject, said that he wu not actuated by Key spirit of hostility to the present government. The dif ficult subject of peconil-ry punishments couiil lay • no cos anion with party politics. It had occupied his ittenties in and oat of office for more than 20 years; and wishing generally to support the present government, he hoped he should not be charged with inconsistency in contending with reference to the present subject that they had fallout into an error which was calculated to lead to a serious pub. lic evil. Ile should not have troubled their :ortliiip. with the motion he was about to submit, had it cot been for as intimation from his noble friend (tee Duke of Ns weutle) that it was not the intention of the government to bring for ward any measure on this subject, at the same time. how ever, he expressed an opinion that a discus :At on this ma snentous question was highly desirable. Ile had thereto,* ventured to undertake the task, and should submit a motions the object of which would be to enable their lordship W pronounce a judgment on oue particular part of the q NO. tion which urgently required immediate ectitideratiens The object of his motion was not to call on them to express an opinion in favour of that system of secondary punish ments which was adopted by the government with which be was connected. He did not ask them tc say that trate* partition should be continued, but to address her Msjestg for the purpose of praying that she would be pleased in issue her comments that a vital change in cur system et criminal jurisprudence and our punt policy, as establidsed for two centuries, should not be made until their lordships and the other house of parliament had been Trade acquainted with the measures proposed to be adopted, and should have borl an opportunity of pronouncing an opinion apes them. In the speech by which the present Parliament wee opened, her Majesty was advised by the noble earl opposite to call the attention of parliament to the subject of puniahments, and she stated that she should rejoicel s otl i a at possible to devise means by which transportation to Van Diemen's Land might be, at no distant period, altogether disoontieued. In conformity with that speech the late Secretary of State for the Colonies en the 14th of December last addressed • despat:h to the ()peeper of Van Diemen's Land, informing him of the intention of the government to discontinue transportation to Van Diemen's Land ; but he added that it was not in his power to fix a date for effecting that dis continuance, as before it took place it would be necessary that some alteration should be made in the law, and parlia ment must consider what arrangement must he substituted. A change of government subsequently took piece, and it was then announced that the government dil not concur in the opinion of their predecessors, but had come to a deter mination that transportation to Van Diemen's Land should forthwith be discontinued, and that Lot another convict ship should be despatched to that cdony ; and it was even stated that Western Australia would not long be considered a+ • convict settlement. He was not present on that occasion ; and he ex pected when he came to London that the government would have brought forward some measure on the subject, but having waited a considerable time, about ten days ago he put a question to the noble duke on the subject, and was informed that precisely the difficulty whiclo he had antici pated bad arisen; and that upwards of one thousand con victs were already in penal establishments, who, under former arrangements, ought to have been centered to a colons, but who were still kept in custody. And it was further stated that it still remained under the considers. lion of the government what ought to be dose with those convicts. It appeared to him that • c osaiderable mistake had been made . the government had decided that trans portation forthwith should be discontinued to Van Diemen's Land, and shortly to Western Australia, but they seemed to have overlooked the fact that they could not make • pause, acid that a constant seri am of couvictiocs was taking !dace at the sessions and assizes. (Hear, bear.) Before they discontinued one mode of disposing of those ;tenons they ought to have settled upon another. And it was • little remarkable that not three months after they were told that transportation to Van Diemen's Lead was to be discontinued, they were told that the govern seat bed not yet determined as to what was to be dose with the convicts thus thrown en their hands. This difficulty he wee afraid was likely to increase. It was quite clear, and indeed notorious that men dis charged, after suffering punishment in this country, were rarely able to return to decent society. Vpoa the other baud, in the colony, many criminals had respectable members of society. So awash was this the ease that he was able to inform their lordship two yeses ago that, according to the best information, there was at that period not km than 48,000 men living at large in the Pio- Peas who lied at use time or another been convicts. Of these fw dat gasalloatpart were maintaining themselves honestly. That altamsat had savor been doubted in all the various dinenedeMit erhielli had taken plies upon the subject Surely whether the hawse Weed to the welfare of individuals or censibuod tbe ttast lepartaaos of again bringing back into satisfy dime lobe haw hese drives from it by their crimes, it woo saaally *prima that this large number of men, who, if Hwy had rosalasd at home,would, in all probability, have bees skiff ill, should be in a situation to re tries their lost gesitien. They should remember hew great were the evils which resulted from the presence of His dams of persons, where they mold not be watched sr gestrelled. Their lordships knew that is France this elnes had beta the eagle ct much civil discord. (Hear, hoar.) la a country neighbourhood no thing was found to have as evil as effect as • returned convict. Such a man was the Pose of mischief, setting on the young to crime, and making them look upon punish. opinion was, that transportation cease. But when he was till that the inhnhitants of Van Diemen's Land and West ern Australia would rebel, and that the example of the American colonies would be followed, he could hardly for bear from 'milieu( at the perfectly ludicrous contrast be tween th e two co,es. What similarity was there between the strong; feeling which had led to the ejection of tea into Boston harbour, and the feeling which did not prevent the scenes which took place at the arrival of the convict ships Why in a recent piper there was a most graphic monist of the tuntult which such an event occa sioned. Even the assistance of the military had to be in voked, to restrain the crowds of rich and poor who stum bled, not to drive away the cmcicts from their shores, but to secure their PtitiM. (Rao, Whgt a arngra;; between the persons who bad indulged in this foolish talk in the colonies, and the !treat men of the American reeo . . ltvion—men not lees dirtioguished for their moderation than their firmness; men whose moderation was such, th it had there been the smallest infusion of poli•ical wisdom in the councils of this country, the calamitous struggle, and the secession of those colonies, would never have taken place. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the amendment which be understood the noble earl (Lord Chi chester) intended to propose. he trusted that it would not be pressed. If he wished to take the tense of the house upon it he hoped the noble earl would bringit on as a substan tive motion, because it was entirelybeside the ques tion he (Lord Grey) wished to place before the house. If, however, the noble • arl did press his amendment, he (Lord Grey) trusted the bout would deal with it as merely an indirect way of evading a question which the government did not feel prepared to meet. Was it right, three months after the ships bad been chartered which should have taken convicts out, they should be diecussing whit to do with them? Surely the course the government had taken was an erroneous one; but it was still not too late for parliament to interfere, and he asked them therefore to agree to the resolution of the term. of which he had given notice, vis.:— " That an humble address be preseated to her Majesty, praying that her Majesty will be graciously pleased to give directions that the arranaements with respect to the punish ment of erimioals sentenced to transportation, which were in force in the year 185'2, may not be changed in such a manner as to prevent the ultimate removal of such offen ders from this country until a full account of any contem plated alteration in the above arrangements shall have been laid before parliament, and till parliament shall have had an opportunity of considering the measures it may be intended to adopt previously to their being carried into execution." The Earl of ABERDEEN said it would perhaps be con venient for him to state thus early in the debate the views of her Majesty's government upon the subject ; and he did so the more readily, becalm, notwithstanding the appeal of the noble earl, be could not help entertaining $OlllO hope that be (Lord Grey) would not himself be disposed to press his motion upon the house In the first place, this motion was one of a very unusual character. It was an inter vention of a description rarely exercised towards the legitimate use of the prerogative of the crown, and of the executive government. (Hear.) The noble earl thought the government had done something which required the sanction of parliament to authorise. They had done no such thing. (Hear, hear.) Had they been disposed to take any step requiring the sanction of parliament they should most readily have reeuested the house to authorise or refuse their assent to such a proceeding. Bat they had done nothing of the kind. All they had done was that which, right or wrong, wise °entente ' it was perfectly com petent for them in the exercise of the discretion of the exe cutive government. (Hear, hear.) lie agreed with the noble earl that this subject had always been treated as not belonging to any party considerations. (Cheers.) The sub ject was one which interested our social condition so nearly, and was so important to the welfare and happiness of such vast numbers of our fellow-citiz ms, that it had been very properly put aside from all considerations of party; and he (Lord Aberdeen) had certainly no reason to imagine that the noble earl at all wished to Rise it that character. (Hear, hear.) He was ready to admit that the noble earl and his colleagues had made great improvements in the treatment of convicts and in their discipline both at home and abroad. At the came tii:e he must be permitted to observe that the dif ficulties under which they were labouring at that moment had been mainly created, however unintentionally, by the noble earl himself. (Hear, hear.) The practical question was,after all, notwithstanding all that the noble earl had said, could transportation be continued? and ho would show that the noble earl had made that impossible. And For this reason—when, in 1816. Mr. Gladstone was Secre tary for the Colonies, he found the system introduced by the noble earl opposite bad led, however well devised (for he was not inclined to find fault with that system) had led to such abuses, and that the country had arrived at such • state of horror and abomination that he (Mr. Gladstone) found himself under the necessity of suspending all trans portation for two years. Shortly after that declaration a 'lunge of government took place, and the noble earl suc ceeded bins. The noble earl, on the 6th of February, 1817, wrote to Sir W. Denison, in Van Diemen's Land, to this effect :—" I have to inform you that it is not the intention of her Majesty's government that transportation to Van Diemen's Land shall be resumed at the expiration of the two years for which it has been already decided that it shall be discontinued." Earl GREY—Read the former part. The Earl of ABERDEEN was quite ready to admit that the noble earl intended something different from what be mild. (Earl Grey (loudly)—" Hear, hear.") Well, if the noble earl would bear , he would state what was about to say. (A laugh.) Whatever intrepretation the noble earl might put upon this letter now, Sir W. Denison understood it in its plain meaning, and he announced it to his legislative council, as an intimation that no more convicts were to be tot to Van Diemen's Land. (Hear, bear.) It had thus become a question of good faith, be cause the inhabitants had attached that meaning to the de claration of their own governor, founded upon the despatch of the noble earl. (Hear, hear.) Now, he (Lord Aber deen) knew very well that what the:noble earl meant wee that transportation should not be resumed in the same manner as had been the practice before. But neither the governor to whom he wrote, nor the colonists to whom Sir W. Denison explained it, understood it so. They undoubt edly received a fixed impression that the late government intended to abolish transportation to Van Dieneen'eLesed. (Hear, hear.) Well, but with that canted= em their part, it would be difficult to diabase them of their belief, which had been confirmed to them over and over again by the declarations, the em phatic declarations, of their legislative council. (Hear.) The noble earl in one instance had written that the go vernment of this country had en right to send convicts to any coloni against the consent of the inhabitants. tying the advantages derived from the system of tour portation in comparison with other modes of esamdlary punishment, for he seemed to think that trans pulMfma was for those who were dtterly irreclaimable, an t the reformatory influilice was only to be applied through a dif ferent system. Ile, however, was of opinion that there was more chance of amendment from transportation than from a reformatory system in this country, followed up, as it unit be, by a recurreece to former habits and associates. Aad so far from wishing to restrict transportation solely to thoee with regard to whom hut little hope was to be en tertained, still less with regard to the must aggravated oases, he thought there was a class of persons who, after a reformatory system in this country, might obtain signal be - . transportation to the colonies , and who MM" •• might be •,... an advantage to the community to whom they were sent. (Hear, hear.) Transportation, there . . _ " • • valuable fore, he thought, might be "availabli as a sequence to a reformatory process. He thought, however, that the time bad arrived when we must look to the aboli tion of transportation to Van Diemen's Land. The feeling which existed in that colony against receiving convicts might be partly produced by the encouragement given in this country to the notion that a colony which received coevicts was* degraded colony. He thought that to be a mistake—(hear, hear)—but the idea weep strongly im pressed on the people of Van Diemen's Leak *ea he did not say we had not the right or the power to mod esaviets there, but he thought it would not be good paw re sea tinge to do so. (Hear, hear.) They had given Via Die men's Land an independent government of he own, sad from that time they must take the legislative body to be the representatives of the people, and the organ for ex pounding the feelings and wishes of the colonists. (Hear, bear.) And where there was a strong feeling pervading the whole of a colony, especially on such a subject es the admission of convicts, it was nowise to run the risk of re peering in Van Diemen's Land scenes such as they had witnessed in other colonies. (Hear, hear.) The fi eld fur transportation would consequently be limited to an extent which would be found inconvenient, and it would materially diminish a large portion of the reform& eery principle. Thinking it necessary to make an immediate I preparation for meetiog that emergency, he did net the lees agree with the motion in regretting the precipitate manner is which the government had given effect to an intentios which he thought might safely have been carried out mare gradually, and which he and his late colleagues fully ese tuetsined, but the execution of which they were willing to postpone until they made the necessary amusements. Having alluded to the changes which had boss made, he must express his regret that the govern. smut had now made another sudden change, leading She public mind, perhaps, to believe that there would be • greater change than was contemplated. ;He would not dwell on the individual injustice that would be done to maviets, for he wee sure that the government would do all *eye-could to limit and prevent it. But when the present system wee introduced he pointed out to the noble earl that, as to deportation, he was only postponing the evil day, and that the pressure would come as soon as the con victs were entitled to be sent out of the country. From an expression which had dropped from the noble earl at tho head of the government, he did not think there was much difference between his views and those of the late govern ment mato limiting the amount of transportation and the offences for which it should be inflicted. He thought it desirable that there should be some locality, not tar from this country, in which there should be a prison (or persons of whom there was no hope of amendment, and who should net, therefore, contaminate a colony. (Hear, hear.) He did net mean that they should always be kept within the walla of a prison, but within a nar row space, subject to illance, even for life. That might be a substitute for transportation, and he thought he inferred from what had fallen from the noble earl that he did not differ widely from those views. (" Hear, hear," from the Earl of Aberdeen.) In conclusion, he must say that he saw with regret that the government had taken a course likely to lead to embarrassment, having the appearance of yielding to popular feeling in Van Diemen's Land against transportation there, and that they had adopted the discontinuance of the present system before they had matured the plan they had intended to propose as to secondary punishment. He complained, moreover, of their taking a final and ultimate step without first consulting parliament on the subject. Entertaining those views he should support the resolution of the noble earl on the cross benches. (Hear.) The Duke of NEWCASTLE said that the noble sal (the Earl of Derby) had expressed his intention of voting with the noble earl (Earl Grey) who had brought forward this motion, principally because of the approbation which he had expressed in reference to the course which the late govern sent intended to pursue. At the lame time, the noble earl (the Earl of Derby) abstained from making any statement se to what those intentions were. He (the Duke of New eastla) could assure the noble earl that however the noble lard who made the motion might approve of that coarse, he was only able to judge of it from what was contained la the speech from the throne, and in a despatch of the right lion. gentleman (Sir J. Pakington) who preceded him in office. The noble earl (Earl Grey) had, in his speech, charged the government with having violated the spirit if not tiro letter of various acts of parliament. Now he (the Duke of New castle) utterly denied that the government had done this. It had acted upon the power which the crown had invariably exercised, upon the advice of minis ters, to decide to which colonies transportation should pre med, and where and in what degree it should be stopped. are was no set of parliament stating to what colonies Isamportation should take place. The matter had always bws regulated by orders in council, and the noble earl meet know that en more than one occasion an order in council had been made, repealed, restored, and repealed again merely upon the advice of ministers. Again, what had been the practice of late years with regard to transport ation ? Latterly, until within a short time, prisoners tran sported for seven years had never been transported at all,but merely sent to the hulks. More than that, ministers had not only taken upon themselves never to carry the sentence of transportation into effect, but, even since the late altera tion., prisoners sentenced to seven years' transportation were detained for two years and a half in solitary confine ment and upon public works before being sent out of the country. What was the effect of these alterations by the government of which the noble earl was • member ? Under it a man sentenced to transportation for seven years was virtually transported for life. The noble earl (Earl Grey) looked amazed at this, but it was the case, for under these regulations a man was transported and left without the means of returning. As to the real practical effect of the gold diggings upon the transport, the return for the first nine months of the year 1852 showed that no less than 1,413 ticket-of-leave men had absconded from their Land, but his ardent hope that transportation itself might he brought to a speedy end. The Doke of NEWCASTLE oomplaiaed that the noble and learned lord was misrepresentiug him. He had n expressed any hops on the subject ; bat he had candidly ! stated that her Majesty's government had determined to give up transportation to Van Disman's Land, though they would cantinas it to Western Australia. Ile had confessed, however, that he could not hold out any hope—th a t was t h e way the word wee used—that criminals could be sent to that colony to any great extent or for any very long time. (Hear, hear.) Lord CAMPBELL appealed to their lordships' reeollec tioa as to how far he had correctly given the purport of the noble duke'i intimation. He (Lard Campbell) could not but feel the greatest alarm at the prospect of criminals being turned loose upon the community, which must be the result of theatres*, proposed unless the government were prepared to imprison persons for 10, 15, or 20 years, or even for life. He believed that no secondary punishment had ever been devised so good as transportation; and though he had incurred no small degree of obloquy for having stood up first, he should cordially support the motion of his noble friend (Earl Grey). The LOUD CHANCELLOR was afraid that the noble and learned lord had imparted a somewhat different tone to a discussion which had previously been characterised by dimness, dispassionateness, and the absence of anparty feelings. The simple case was this. There had been • positive and distinct engagement on the part of the govern ment that no more convicts should be sent out to Van Die man's Land; and the proposal was that they should ask her Majesty to give directions to her servants to violate that engagement. (Cheers.) It was a mistake to suppose that the government proposal was at all contrary to law, as the noble and learned lord seemed to intimate. Not to speak of the Hulks Act, there had been en act of parliament passed ten or twelve years ago, by which it was made lawful to commute sentences of transportation to certain periods of ' imprisonment specified ; and by a subsequent act the Secre tary of State was empowered to regulate those periods at his own discretion. (Hear, hear.) lie (the Lord Chancel lor) would not yield to the noble and learned lord in his admiration of transportatioi, were it not that cir cumstances had occurred at the antipodes which ren dered it impossible. Transportation, in fact, satis fied the two great criteria of a good punishment— it combined the maximum of terror with the minimum of endurance. (Hear, hear.) The government had still Western Australia, and they must endeavour to make the most of it. At present the total number of transports was about 2,000; whereas Western Australia had only capabi lities for receiving 300, or 400, or 500. It was, therefore, necessary to select for transportation only those crimes which were of the gravest character. (Hear, hear.) The Earl of CHICHESTER explained that though his amendment had been described as not opposing the motion, he had intended to express his dissent from the proposition of the noble earl. The Duke of ARGYLL, in reference to the argument of Earl Grey that a colony became fitted to be a penal colony just in proportion as its population increased, oh served that the last census of Van Diemen's Land showed a population of 31,000, consisting of 18,000 free men and 13,000 convicts. But the gold discoveries of 1831 had re duced the free population to 9,000. Would the noble earl say that this colony was still in a condition to receive more convicts ? (Rear.) Earl GREY, in reply, corrected his former statement respecting Mr. Wentworth. That gentleman had con tinued to advocate the continuance of the convict system until the gold discoveries. The noble lord at the head of the government had confined himself very much to an ad hominessargument that he (Earl Grey) had created the difficulty, and he read a portion of his despatch in support of that assertion. If he had read the whole of it, it would have been seen that he stated that government looked upon it as an experiment. Then it was new to him that any government could pledge parliament for all time to come. It had been said that the object of his motion was to con tinue transportation to Van Diemen's Land. He said dis tinctly that he would assume, for the purpose of argument, that it was; but, after the • opinion of two governments that it should be discontinued, that had quite altered the case. Then the noble earl asked what was the object of his address. He (Earl Grey) quite admitted that transportation to Van Diemen's Land must cease: but he (Earl Grey) did not say that it was to cease to-day or to-morrow. The noble earl said they had not abolished transportation. Well, he would not quarrel about a word ; but they had stopped the sending of convicts abroad. If this address were carried, government would have to send those convicts who were entitled to tickets of leave either to Van Diemen's Land or to Westetn Australia. What he objected to was, that whereas hitherto the removal of convicts from this country to a distant colony had been considered by parliament as • necessary part of the sentence of transportation, her Majesty's go vernment had taken upon themselves, by their own sole au thority, without consulting parliament, to make an altera tion, the practical effect of which was that a large propor tion of these convicts would have to be discharged at home. He agreed that the hulk acts enabled them to keep the con victs at home for a time ; but he said that the spirit of those acts required that at some stage or other those cen victs should be removed. They acted on that opinion in 1846, and he said they ought to do the same thing now. Their lordships then divided. For the motion Against it 64-17 The amendment was then agreed to. Their lordships then adjourned at a quarter to one o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—TUESDAY, MAT 10. The Srlatna took the chair at 4 o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Lords Amendments to the following bills were con sidered and agreed to:—Brighton, Hove, and Preston Waterworks; Cambridge University and Town Water works; Cardiff Waterworks; Liverpool Borough Court; Sheffield Waterworks; Stockport Improvement; Wake field Soke Mills ; Bills. Tutxu READING.—Severn Navigation Bill. The following bills were considered and ordered to be read a third time:—Darenth Valley Railway ; Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway ; Midland Railway (Leicester and Hitchin) ; Monkland Railways; Norwich and Spalding Railway ; Portadown and Dnoganaon Railway ; Thames Haven Dock and Railway; York. Drainage and Sanitary Improvement and Fuss Navigation; Bills. SUOMI) RlADlNO.—Whittlebury Forest Bill. PUBLIC BUSINESS. PLYMOUTH ELECTION COMMITTEE. Eitel Ot— --Not bring originally a convict colony. The Earl of ABERDEEN—Very well ; but surely the 4 noble earl ought to nay some respect to the legislatures of these colonies. Was it only against the church of England 1 that the noble earl supported the declarations of the Legia- I lative Assemblies—was it only the Canada' that were to be ' supported in the wishes that they expressed, and was I a colony to protest against a set of convicts being forced upon them, and were they not to be listened to or to receive any attention from their lordships ? The noble earl ought to be consistent, and to give due weight to the voice of those assemblies which he had helped to constitute in these colonies. The noble earl had throughout treated the whole of this subject as if government had taken a de cision to abolish transportation. Now, they had not only done no such thing, but they were anxious to preserve transportation. Undoubtedly the field in which it could be exercised was diminished ; and as he had already said, whether inadvertently or not, that difficulty had been mainly created by the noble earl himself. (Hear, bear.) But there were settlements that still remained, and he thought that by good administrations at home the number of convicts transported might be se diminished as possibly to find the means of accommoda tion in those restricted territories to which he had alluded. He did not think it necessary to say more, except to protest against the notion which the noble earl through out his speech had endeavoured to convey, that they had come to a decision to abolish transportation be cause they found it impossible to send convicts to Van Diemen's Land, for that was the whole amount of his charge. The Earl of CHICHESTER then rose to move the amendment of which he had given notice, " That whilst in the opinion of this house it is expedieat to retain the punishment of transportation for some of the g fences against the law, it has become necessary to restrict such transportation to a few only of the colonies, and to places which, from their limited extent or population, are at present incapable, without prejudice to their own social condition, of affording employment to any considerable number of discharged convicts. That it has therefore be come the duty . of parliament to adopt immediate measures for providing Increased means of secondary punishment in this country. That such secondary punishment ought to be, both in kind and duration, sufficiently penal to exercise as deterring an influence as the punishment of transports. lion, and at the same time of so reformatory a character as to afford a reasonable hope that the eonvicts who wades° it will, on their discharge, bee me useful members of so ciety. and qualified to obtain emoloyment either in this country or in the colonies." De objected to the mo tion, because it implied a continuance of transportation to a greater extent than he believed to be desirable, or, in the present circumstances of the colony, to be either politic or just. lie concurred in much that was said by the noble earl, and he also agreed with the noble earl who had just sat down, that, for the graver offences, transportation ought to be continued. Ile agreed also in what had been said with regard to the meta so liothing. ... should arras forgotten, tc-Ci, that in a country like this, where labour is set really scarce, the dill nifty which a man who had committed a crime expenses's& is obtainiag employment, threw him bark into iiishoosot courses. As faro his information went, he was not aware' of any sufficient reason far abandoning the practice of re moving convicts to Van Diemen's Land ; but, for the sake sr argument, be would concede that it must be abandooid. Granting that this was so. what was the proper course ? Ha found no fault with the dispatch written by the Ire Cols nisi Secretary, who said he thought that transportation to Van Diemen's Land ought to step, but that rovernment could not fix the precise date of the change. (Hear, hear.) The ;late government proposed to submit certain in the law, which they thought neemsary in order to this alte ration in the practice, sad at the same 11., to make certain arrangements by which they thought those alterations might be accomplished without injury. (Hey, ' hear.) That was a perfectly legitimate course, and Ind it been adhered to by the present government, it would have been perfectly practicable, by arrangements which might have been made, and changes lathe law which might have been proposed—not certainly without consider- able esposse—to put an end, at no distant period, to trans portation to Van Diemen's Land, and at the same time to maintain that punishment to an extent sufficient to answer the most important purposes. (Hear, hear, hear.) No ulna held higher than himself the doctrine, that if we would retain our vast colonial empire, and keep its different parts knit together by mutual affection and loyalty to the crown, it was necewry that the imperial government and parliament should deal with justice—any, with indulgence sad consideration—towards the colonies. But be utterly denied that government or parliament was bound to yield to every demand of the colonists, whether just or not, end to listen to every clamour, reasonable or unreasonable. Important as he thought it that we should retain oar mo baits, be said deliberately that it would be far bettor to part with them at once than to retain them on those terms, by which we were to have the onerous duty of defied*, and protecting them, but to exercise no substantial autho- rity. (Hear, hear.) Ile hoped that an argument so dors gatory to the dignity of parliament and to the crown WOW not be used in that honor. The right rule to nit upon was this: the legislature must litftn to the do mes of the colonists; they must bear their prayers with every disposition to accede to them and what ever was consistent with the common good of all we were bound to grant ; while those demands which were not based on justice, and were incensiatcht pith the general welfare of the whole empire, we were brand to oppose. The true test of statesmenship, that which made the differ ence between a statesman and a mere shlilow was to be able to discriminate between ono case and the other, to know when justice required concession, and when their duty to the crown and the enardre prescribed firm new. Let them apply that rule .to Van Diemes's Land. How far was the demand {just, how far was It supported, not by poplar clamour, but by reason, that the _y should not merely - an end totrnnspottarion to Vas 'Miners - . employments daring that period to go to the gold fields; of these 738 only were apprehended and brought back. In a despatch, dated about the month of February last, he had explained the views of the home government to the seeernor of Van Diemen's Land, and informed him of ihe intention of her Majesty's government to put a stop to then system of transportation. He (the Duke of New. 'Mae) had seen nothing to induce him to change his upfaion since the writing of that dispatch, on the contrary, be was sure that to ease the colony from its then inked state was a thing of primary importance. With re gard to the committee presided over by the noble and Gamed lord near him (Lord Brougham) he could not find In the report of that committee, that absolute ap proval of transportation to which the noble earl (Earl (trey) bad referred. The committee had come to the conclusion that imprisonment in this country was not out latent as a secondary . punishment ; but since their report was made, prison dis cipline had been greatly improved, end would be still more so. The report recommended that new Methods should be found of dealing with juvenile offenders, also that the education of the poorer classes should be im =veld. Both those objects had been attended to ; and he the effortathat had been made would go on increasing. The noble earl (Grey) had stated, on a former occasion that 3,000, 4,000, or 5,000 would be let loose on this country before the end of the present year. But supposing the trans portation to the Australian colonies abandoned altogether, the whole number would not amount to more than 2,000 far the year. Earl GREY—Do you include those sent to the Ano , belies colonies from Gibraltar and Bermuda, or (sly ilea sent from Great Britain and Ireland ? The Duke of NEWCASTLE said his statement only in cluded those sent from Great Britain and Ireland. The average number sent out for the last five peen to Australia from Great Britain and Ireland was 1,945; if those sent from Bermuda and Gibraltar were included, the average was only 100 from each place. The annual number of vacancies was 400 in Bermuda, and 200 in Gibraltar. Therefore, were transportation to the whole of the Aus tralian colonies to cease at once, the total increase of the criminal population poured upon this country, in addition to those annually poured upon us by the liberation of pri soners at the expiration of their sentences, would be 1,945 in respect of those convicts now sent from Great Britain and Ireland, and 200 from Bermuda and Gibraltar. In 1846, when this inquiry was made, all the convicts sentenced to seven years' transportation wore sent to the hulks, a system which it was universally admitted bad demo ralised the convicts instead of reforming them. Yet the whole of these convicts, so demoralised, were thrown upon the free population of this country ; not one of them was ever transported. There was no pretence that we had suffered from this; but we were now dreading the effect of a far lesser number being thrown upon the population, though reformed by the improved system of prison discipline, and by the system of labour and separate confinement introduced in 1846. The government hoped to be able to carry out such measures as would meet the wishes of the colonists, . . - - - Mr. AGLION BY brought up the report of the committee on the Plymouth Election, which declared that Mr. Collier was duly elected at the last election for the borough of Plymouth, and that Mr. Mare was not duly elected, he having been by himself and his agents guilty of bribery. (For further particulars see the report of the ermmittee.) PEGU. Mr. COBDEN gave notice that on this day month be would bring under the notice of the house the annexation of Pegu to the territories of the East India Company. LAND TAX. Mr. WODEHOUSE,asked the following questions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, relating to the proposed measure for giving increased facility to the act for the re demption of the land tax—viz., whether the measure now proposed is intended to supersede, or in any way to preclude the consideration of the question of • periodical revision ; also, whether a more extensive inquiry should not now be made, by means of which the evils complained of might be in a great degree lessened, without infringing the benefits already realised by redemption. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the measure now proposed was intended for-no other pur se, except to facilitate the redemption of the land tax on behalf of those who desired to rid their land of the burdens laid on it in that particular form. That was the sole ob ject of the amendment. It was not intended to interfere with the question of periodical revision. That wu under judicial cognisance at the present moment, and it was pro bable that judgment would be given in the course of a few weeks. The present, therefore, was an unfortunate moment to interfere in the matter. It was not intended to institute a more extensive inquiry for apportioning the land tax be tween different parties. DUBLIN EXHIBITION. Mr. P. O'BRIEN wished to know from the Secretary-at- War whether it is his intention to recommend to the noble lord, the Commander-in-Chief, the propriety of granting leave of absence to such officers of the army as may be de sirous of viewing the Great Industrial Exhibition in Dublin, similar leave having bean granted during the holding of the Great Exhibition in 1851. Mr. S. HERBERT said thi Commander-in-Chief was the person woo had the power of giving leave of absence. At the present time there were camps forming, so that leave of absence would probably not be given ; but at a later period of the year it was possible that leave would be given u in the case of the Great Exhibition, FARMERS AND THE INCOME TAX. Sir F. KELLY wished to ask the Chancellor of the Ex chequer whether it was proposed on the part of the go vernment to introduce any clause into the Income Tax Bill which would give farmers • choice or option of being as sessed on the amount of their rental or on the actual profits made, as was done under schedule D. Having understood tho right hon. gentleman to refer to some relief of that hied, he thought it would be satisfactory if, before the dis cussion took place, he would distinctly state what it was to be. , Land, but that they should do it so precipitate., as set to seoesmity of the interference of parliament is.ix this pies- and would promote the interestsof this great country, with- The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was not leave themselves time to consider and discuss any other Non ; he believed it to be quite necessary that there should out doing anything to destroy that security for life and pro- aware that there was any occasion for introducing a new mode of punishing convicts, nor time t 3 take parliament be some alteration in the law, because transportation could perty here which it was most essential to maintain. (Hear.) clause on the subject. At present farmers had the option of into their councils, as by the constitution they were bound not be carried out to the extent that the law allowed, and Lord CAMPBELL asked whether the mover of the being assessed according to the rule provided in schedule to do. How far was it just that Van . Diemen's Land that was another re as . m why he could not c ncur amendment meant it to be added to the resolution, or to be IL and had the power of appeal, and of requiring to be as should demand from us, not only concess ions, but Met*. in the motion of hit noble friend. He believed a substitute for it. If the former, it quite concurred with sesied on their actual profits; and he did not think any mons so hasty and precipitate as that i Ile would that a variety of suceessful experiments proved the m ttion ; the y were perfectly harmonious. mo re lenient arrangement could be made. remind them that the whole population had been that they bad discovered a satisfactory system of secondary The LORD CHANCELLOR said he had pot it as an SCOTCH SPIRITS. created by the transportation system, without even punishments equally applicable to convicts who were to be amendment ;to leave out all the words of the original re- Lord NAAS said, seeing the Chancellor of the Exchequer excepting New Zealand—(hear, hear)—for distant as seat to the colonies, or who were to he discharged in this solution after the word s. that." in his place, he begged to ask him whether it was the in it was, it would not have been available for set- country. Ile thought great blame attached to parliament The E irl of CHICHESTER stated that he bad so pro- tention of the government to propose any alteration in the tiers but for the wealth and resources created in and to government for not having made more adequate posed it. present malt drawback on home-made spirits in Scotland ? that part of the world by the system of transportation, provision for secondary punishment, when everybody knew Lord CAMPBELL said in that case, he should advise The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had They might talk till they were tired about the moral di , ' that transportation w as always becoming more and more their lordships to adopt the address and reject the amend- recently understood it to be the desire of the Irish distillers advantages of a convict population, but with such prospects difficult. The noble earl concluded by moving his amend- meat. (Hear, hear.) Asa judge of the land, and having that the malt drawback in Scotland should be abolished, they would never prevent persons from going there. Cer- mt nt. a seat in their lordships' house, he thought it his duty to but he should bo very slow to make any alteration without thinly if he (the noble earl) were contenaidatieg emigration, The Earl of DERBY said the noble earl had entered into take that course. It was cl earl y the intention of the legis- previously giving the Scotch distillers an o pp or t un ity o f Van Diomen's Land would be the colony Le should choose. a detail of the course parliament had pursued for some lature that sentences of transportation should be carried being heard. The government would not preclude them- But if transportation cease d, an y man that expected to years with regard to secondary punishment, and no one was into effect ; this was evident from tho various acts passed selves from considering the matter on its merits ; but as at 'sake his livelihood other than by the labour of his owa better qualified to speak on th- subject of transportation at different times limiting imprisonment in this country present advised they had no intention of doing what was hands, would be insane to tie there ; !teat's' it was obvious and eecondary punishment than the noble earl. He must to three years ; and such was evidently the i n t e ntion of desired. that no produce h e could raise by the means of labourers, soy, however, that in the greaot part of his speech he had both the houses of the legislature. (Hear, hear.) The The Exchequer Bills Bill was read a third time and ro whom he must pay such wages as winal.l deter them given the go-by to the question, as his amendment did to government were meditating the substantial abolition of passed. from going to the,diggings, MONASTIC INSTITUTIONS. would have any lance of cons- tt.e resolution of the noble earl on the cures trenches, transportation. Two months ago, when he was about to poling_ in the market with that brought it , m America or Ile heli -v v 1 that there were many offences to go on the c i rcu it , h e as k e d the noble duke (the Duke of Mr. T. CHAMBERS said, in rising to introduce this cob one England. (Hear, bear.) dlowev s r, Ls th z legislative selieh the I.unishment of transportation was sow applied N ewcast l e ) w h e ther that punishment was or was not to be ject, he felt inconveniently, and even painfully, the ditficul rimed had spoken, he must asume that it expressed the hr which it would not be convenient to Continue it. The continued, and the noble duke intimated not only his opi- ties of his task ; and it teas not the least of those difficulties episnens of the community ; and, right or wrong, that noble earl who had jest eat down went farther in dispe- nion that it was no longer possible to send criminals to Van that he roes for the first time to claim the attention and in. &theme of the boom (Cheers.) h. the statement he was about to make, he wished to respect 'W e Y Ims religious I opinions and belief, and he would on no sia: none willingly wound any hon. member's susceptibilities. But although he desired to avoid introducing a theological discussion, it was es sential to the purpose which be had in view that he ahnuld ' state with the candour that befitted a member of parlia ment and with the fidelity of an English protestant, the grounds on which he asked the house for legislative re dress. Those who had seen the notice on the paper would have gathered from it that he was of opinion that there was in this country a class of persons who were subject to un due coercion and restraint, and that the existing state of the law was not adequate to their relief. That impression prevailed in the country to a great extent. Many of the most thoughtful, careful, philosophic, and benevolent per sons were of opinion that there were institutions existing in this country alien front the free spirit of our constitution; that such institutions had multiplied very greatly within the last few years, and were now multiplying with increasing rapidity, and that it was necessary that the law on the subject should be amended. Ile did not wish to conceal from the house that his motion was pointed more especially against monastic institutions. (Hear, bear.) There was nothing novel in the introduction of a measure contemplating such an object; there were provisions in the Roman Catholic Relief Act which were directed specifically against monastic institutions, though they remained a dead letter. (Hear ' hear.) He knew that those who were in favour of such establishments were in the habit of describ ing them as places of calm retreat and seclusion, where ladies might retire from the world and enjoy a peace and tranquillity which they could not obtain amid the busy scenes of life. see her at stated intermits, but how absurd to 3117:77, • substitute for the kindly and racial intercou-se of kindred, a hen the nun could only see her friends in the presence of the superior. (Hear, hear.) It was, to use a trip phrase, adding insult to injury, to tall that the privilege of seeing one's friends. (Hear , h . ea t ) The nun passed in fact away from all cont ol elate r of th e law or the constitutiot, tor once within the walls of a ca n '. ; vent, there was neither inspection, communicates', or c ar - I respondence. (Hear, hear.) Out of the light of the ma. atitution, out of the reach or the law, out of the hearing of her friends, the poor nun, if diseontinted with her way of life, was perfectly unprotected and helpless. (Hear, hear.) In the present state of the law this must be practically, although not theoretically, the case, for the house must know that the law stood helpless at the door of a nunnery, as the emperor of old did at the gate of the pap a l palace. It was not possible to get the law of En g l an d into operation for redress on that quarter, and it was only done in foreign countries ey provisions framed specially for the purpose. Clear, hear.) The or dinary law on the continent had been lItCl stained to be am strong enough, and therefore in several catholic counties pronsione bad been made stronger than those which they were denounced in this country for asking. (H ear , h e n It had been urged—what proof have you tact the Musks are unhappy ? One sufficient reason to his mind was, that a nunnery was a place of restraint, where females were held in a strict bondage and subject to irresponsible power. That at least could nut be denied—(hear, hear)—a power, too, which was exercised in impenetrable seamy. (LcMd cries of " Hear, hear.") What then was the inference ? It was that the law should be vigilant in protecting the rights of parties placed in such a situation. It was said, also, that there was lie whichystery t i h n .y th e r o s u e ld e m ag a e k s, e and complaints,uniites had need to pass a special law, and that such a law would bo unconstitutional, but let the house remember that they bad special laws for the protection of idiots and lunatics, although lucid d e intervals w a no in mßut what chance or interval had the 'lour nun ? She might be 1 happy, it was true, but if wretched she was without soy power of appealing to the British law. They had pas se d laws fur the protection of factory boys and girls, and sailor boys, and why should there be any hesitation about these poor nuns ? There was yet one feature in these Institutions, which was perhaps the most o bj ect i ona b le in their whole system. The convents in England and Wales wcre affiliated with inatitutions of a similar kind on the continent, and therefore at any moment, or under any circumstances, a person might be deported, transported for life, and it would be impossible for the officers of justice to trace out in what direction the exile had gone. (Hear.) He had said that there was nothing analogous to this in England, and now he asked bon. members to cite a case in which there was any analogy. (Hear, hear.) here was imprisonment for life, seclusion from all social intercourse, severance frorn domestic ties, and deprivation of the protection of the law. (Hear, hear.) In addition to that there was the chance of transportation for life, without offence and without trial, and witho t the slightest chance of protec tion from the constituted authorities. But it would be said, " You only wake genera) statements, and have not giien one example." In his judgment, his case did not rest on *Mete instances, nor could it with half the stability it derived from the propositions he had stated. The argu ments he had used had better foundation than single in stances; and beside., had be quoted a single instance, it wculd be said that the single instance of wretchedness only proved the general rule of content. ment. Besides, one ground of his complaint was that they could not get the facts, and that the Ounce of fiats was a proof of the secrecy and success of the system. If the country were covered with refueee nuns escaping on every side, it might be said there was no need of the law inter fering, as the nuns escaped already. That argument bad been used on a former occasion, but he WOU'AI advise hon. members not to repeat it now. However, one or two in stances he would give, observing that his case was very much strengthened by what had occurred in another place, where a most rev. prelate and a right rev. prelate had spoken on the previous evening and cited examples of the evils now existing. The Archbishop of Dublin said—. He would take the liberty of mentioning a case which had come within his own knowledge, and for the accuracy of which he could vouch. There was a boy in the service of u certain in stitution in Dublin, who resided at the institution. lie fortunately had a lather and mother alive, and occasion. ally went home to sec his parents. Not having visited them, however, for some time, they became alarmed, and in quired for him at the institution; bat they were put off with evasive answers. At last, becoming very much alarmed, they demanded him at the bead of a body of police, when he was reluctantly produced, but in so frightfully emaciated a stste, that it made one's blood curdle to hear of the cruelties which had been inflicted on the poor boy. If he had, nit had a father and mother alive, he would leave their lordships to guess what chance he would ever have had of being re leased. (Hear, hear.) Another instance had also come to his knowledge. There was a protestant lady in Dublin, most of whose relatives were Roman catholic!, and she had formerly been of that church. She had, however, for many years been a mem ber of the protestant church, and was bringing up her children as protestants. She was frequently assailed, and offers of pecuniary 333leante (she being in narrow circum stances) were made to her if she would return into the bosom of the church of Rome. That might be all fair enough ; but he would not have done it, for he would rather not have converts obtained in that way. (Hear, hear.) This poor woman was thus assailed constantly, ant her protestant friends (for relatives she had none) procured for her a situation in England, and they had even engaged a passage for her, when just at that time she disappeared, and had never been seen by any of them since. They had inquired earnestly after her, and had traced her from one house to another, and at last had ascertained where she was admitted to be ; but they could only get messages from her, laying that she had returned to the church of Rome, and wished to have no further intercourse with her friends. This might he true ; but it would have been more satisfactory if she had been produced, and such a statement bad come from her own lips. (Hear, hear.) A letter was at last produced purporting to be written by her, but her friends all agreed that it was not her handwre'ng." (liter, hear.) From that time to the present she bad not heel seen. (" Hear, hear," and cries of " Name" from the Roman catholic members.) Ile believed the facts could not be denied, but at all events hon. mem bers might have plenty of opportunity for inve-tigation. He did not believe the statement was the Archbishop of Dublin's invention; and he could assure the house it was not his own. The Bishop of Norwich stated the following case : He would mention a cue which had come under his observation two years ago. He was residing in the neighbourhood of Dublin, when an application was made to him by a Roman catholic mother, who asked him to ob tain information as to the particular nunnery in which her child had been placed. She thought him to be a Ro man catholic priest, and he felt bound at once to undeceive her, or be might have heard more of her story. He advised her to apply to the late Dr. Murray, the Roman catholic Archbishop of Dublin." The Bishop of Nor wich could give her no assistance. This Roman catholic mother was entitled by law to the custody of her child, but the person she consulted could give her no assistance except by referring her to the Roman catholic primate. A more recent case had occurred in France, and was fully detailed in a recent number of the Christie,' Times. A superior and eight nuns of the Society of St Vin cent de Paul had determined upon renouncing the Roman catholic faith, and becoming protestants. 'the superior was only under temporary vows, which would expire on the 29th of last October, but the vows of the nuns were of consider ably longer duration. Their intentions were discovered. The superior made an appointment to meet her friends on the 29th October, but the nuns made no appearance to this hour. The other nuns were sent away a hundred miles to some affiliated institution where the law or their friends could not follow them. They were to have written, but a profound silence followed, and their friends would never hear of them, unless the civil power were put on their track. One of them had, indeed, escaped, for she was dead. (Rear, hear.) These statements were often laughed at, but never refuted—in fact, the time was gone by for contradicting them. They could be cited out of Roman catholic books. The other plan would be more candid to admit and justify them. (Hear, hear.) It was of no lase pleading the goaeral issue any longer; they had better confess and avoid. (" Rear," and laughter.) Ile would now, with the permission of the house, mention and antici pate a few of the objections that were likely to be taken. First, it might be said that the steps proposed would be an invasion of religious liberty, but they were not going to compel a Roman catholic lady to abandon her vows, or to break up communities of religious females, when they were satisfied with their condition. Their case was that when a person was not satisfied, when it was a tyranny of mind and body, person and property, and an invasion of religious liberty itself, it was proper for the law to interfere. (Hear, hear.) It was to be remembered that these institutions were no part of the Raman catholic church , but had often been persecuted and denounced, although afterwards taken into favour. It was optional whether or no the church shoild take them into connexion, and therefore this could not be considered to be a religious question. Again, it migh• lie said that it would be an insult to a lady of high character and station, and so forth, to trespass on her seclusion. Now if that argu ment was to be used, he would beg hon. members to bear in mind that such an objection could not stand for a moment, be cause if there was no wrong there would be no reason for the bill. On the other hand, if wrong was done, who would balance the inconvenience of an occasional visit against the evil to be redressed. They were n o t t o com p lia anent away the lives of the Queen's subjects in order Oast some iady of high station might not bo disturbed, or to ray that helpless women were to be imprisoned fur life a the hands of irresponsible authority lest the privacy of a few should be invaded. (Hear, hear.) Again, it might be said that this bill 'violated the maxim of British law, which said that a man's house was his castle ; huh it should not be forgotten that the law violated that eaactomy every day. If a Custom-house officer suspected contrataind tobacco no bolts would be strong enough to pre tent his en trance. (Hear, hear.) The law interfered similarly fat parish apprentices and factory children, and why should it not do so in this case ? This led him to state briefly the remedy he proposed. The first anxiety en his mind hest been to do as little as might be necessary, to do as little as might be, ant to satisfy the public mina with the, smallest possible sacrifice of private feeling. (Hear, `aura He proposed, therefore, that the Secretary of State s h ou ld have power to appoint one or two remiss, and t;nat those per sons having reasonable grounds for belie,' og that improp er coercion and restraint were exercised on fa m ' a c a , might select a justice of the peace and procead in his company to ascertain the facts. That was all he wanted. The law was strong enough, and all the y wanted to provide ag ai nst was the m e, feared mystery that the , existed. R e believ ed that that mystery magnif i e d t h e popu l ar apprehension , but nsaa whenever there WP3 stery there was always ground Ca The hon. member was here interrupted by the appear ance of Sir B. Hall at the bar, who stated that he had been to the House of Lords, on behalf of the House of Commons, and that their lordships desired a conference is the Painted Chamber on the subject of the Tynemouth election. The conference occupied about ten minutes, the Lower House being represented by Lord J. Russell, Mr. Disraeli, Mr. Sidney Herbert, Lord John Mangers, Sir J. Graham, and several other members. Mr. T. CHAMBERS then resumed. The people of this country did not believe that the description given of nun neries by Roman catholicsjwsui universally true ; and there were certain grounds for their disbelief with which he must now shortly trouble the house. His arguments were derived from the literature, the laws, and the annals of the Roman catholic church. And here he wished to observe that his motion was pointed against all monastic places, whether Anglo-catholic, Mormonite, or Agapemonic • al though as the Roman catholic chur c h was the only body ing such institutions which had a literature and laws }assaying only that he could draw illustrations of hie argument. Now the first reason why he thought there should be some alteration in the law was—and it was one Idrat struck the popular mind naturally enough—that all maventa were built like prisons. (Rear, hear.) They were bolted and barred, and the windows were grated; they were enclosed within high walls ; there was a porter at the entrance day and night, and the architecture seemed all to have but one object, that of safe custody. In the in terior were not only cells, and refectories, and chapels, but, if report were true, there were dungeons also. (Laughter from the Irish members.) That was stated, when the sub ject was discussed lot, on the testimony of high witnesses, and no explanation was offered. (Hear, hear.) These things made the public suspect that such buildings were not erected merely to be the abode of contented and happy in mates, but rather with the view of keeping those who had once been entrapped. (Hear, hear.) There was another reason why the public distrusted the character of these in stitutions. They knew that the Council of Trent had de nounced the most severe anathemas against those who either induced or compelled a nun to enter a convent uainit her will; and they were also aware that even church laws might be broken for church objects, and absolutic obtained easily enough for the crime denounced—(" Nc no,")—the motive converting the crime into a merit. The existence of the law on the statute book was far more con clusive proof of the existence than of the non-existence of the crime ; unless, indeed, it could be shown that the exist ence of a law against sheep stealing proved that no such offence was ever committed. (Hear, hear.) This argu ment might not be considered conclusive, but it was one that influenced the public mind. Again, the people of England knew that the canon-law denounced severe penal ties against a nun who forsook a convent after having once taken monastio vows ; and ,they thought that no such de nunciation would have been uttered unless there had been, in some cases, a desire to escape from bondage. (Hear, hear.) The church of Rome held monastic vows to be of sacred obli gation, and. therefore enacted penalties against those who violated them ; but the British constitution knew nothing about their imperiousness or obligation, and they were broken with as much ease as Samson broke the grecr. withes the moment a nun in this country claimed the pro tection of British law. (Cheers.) That might not be a conclusive argument, though he thought it was pretty nearly so ; but he was now about to state one to which the ingenuity of hon. members who represented Ireland would be taxed to find an answer. If there were no dissatisfied nuns, how came it to pass that page after page of Roman catholic sacred literature was employed in exhorting and denouncing nuns who desired to escape, in describing the heavy penalties they would incur and the enormous sin they would commit by seeking to be released from their vows ? How could hon. gentiemen opposite escape from the inference? Did they mean to say that there was not in their church such a class of persons as discontented nuns? (Hear, hear.) Why here was a state of things assumed, taken for granted, represented as an evil creating scandal, and requiring the prompt application of remedies. (Hear, hear.) Hera was a class of persons treated as die contented, addressed, remonstrated with, and denounced as such. (Hear, hear.) It might be said that there were exceptions. Now it was exceptions that the opponents of such places were in search of. (Hear, hear.) They did not want to enter a nunnery and set free from monastic vows any lady who was deirous of remaining under them—(hear, hear)—but if they found a class whom learned doctors exhorted, denounced, and warned, these were the persons whom they were looking for, and the British constitution would say to them, " You are free." No; it did not say that completely yet, but he confidently predicted that if net in this session, yet at no distant period justice would be done in this country, as it was done already in every other enlightened country in the world. It might be said that these denunciations were written • long time ago and in other countries ; but, so long as the Roman catholic system and human nature were the same time and place must be immaterial to the argument. He would now state to the house the law in the most important countries in Europe in reference to this question. In Prussia no novice could take the veil without being first examined as to the sufficiency and propriety of her motives in taking such a step, the examination being conducted by the civil authorities and not by the church. (Hear, hear.) In Russia no convent could receive a nun without first making an application to the synod of Moscow •the subject, with an affidavit from the party who was stated to be desirous of entering, declaring that it was of her own free will and choice that she was about to adopt that step. In Bavaria vows were not allowed by law for more than three years, besides which there was a quarterly 'visit of the civil authorities for the purpose of ascertaining not only the fiscal state of the nunneries, but also whether there was any nun who desired to relinquish the seclusion of • convent. In Austria nuns might at any time address the civil government privately, stating their desire to leave the convent ; and the application was at tended to, and they were permitted to leave or not accord ing to the circumstances assigned, and the reasons of the me. In the convents in France—in many of them at least—the vows were temporary, and the civil authorities of the locality might visit them whenever they considered it necessary to do so. (Hear, hear.) Now, the existence of a strong public feeling on the subject in this country was alone, he thought, a reason for doing something ; while the justice of that feeling was proved by the several reasons which he had given ; by the character of the buildings ; by the watchfulness and vigilance observed is them; by the fact that ingress was never followed by egress—Chair, hear)—by the decree of the Council of Trent against com pelling reluctant persons to enter a convent ; by the canon law denouncing a discontented rata; by pages of rhetoric on the subject from doctors of the church ; and, finally, by the practice of the enlightened countries of the continent. But it might be said that their object was to invade religious liberty. To that argument his answer was, that they did not want to invade religious liberty, but to protect civil liberty. The whole question was, in fact, not whether religious liberty was secured, but whether civil liberty was invaded ; whether against the law and the constitu tional rights of Englishmen and Englishwomen, indi viduals were not immured within stone walls, deprived of all communication with their friends, and consequently of all the blessings of social intercourse. (Hear, hear.) From some observations he had heard about him, he suspected that there was a great want of information abroad on this subject. Hon. members were, perhaps, aware, that by the Roman Catholic Relief Act, there was a provision, making it, in plain terms, illegal to establish any monastic establishment for males in this country, but there was also • saving clause respecting con vents, which at the time the act passed had only about half a dozen of these establishments to legislate for. But now, if they looked to the Roman catholic directory, they would find that there were actually 75 convents in Eng land and Wales. (Hear, hear.) 1 hat was in iatelf au im portant fact in this protestant country, but it was still more startling when compared with former years. In ISSI there were .53; in 1852, 62 ; in 1853, 75—the number having in creased 19 in four years-9 in one year and 13 in the last year. (Hear, hear.) No doubt 'Lenten catholic gentlemen were perfectly at liberty to multiply their institutions and to rejoice at their success, but surely they would not con sider it an unreasonable request that female s should not be impelled to be happy against their will. (.. Hear, hear," mad a laugh.) But with respect to this uninterrupted hap =ilihe would refer those gentlemen to the text of the n catholic writers, who complained constantly of the turbulence of convents, and the great scandal that arose to the church in consequence. Surely they could not infer unbroken tranquillity when disturbance was so often confessed, or happiness, when resignation was so often counselled with the most forcible rhetoric. (Hear.) Ile had mentioned the Roman catholic nunneries, hut there wee another class of conventional establishments, the Anglo-catholic nunneries., which required quite us careful looking after. (Hear, hear.) Of thee,' they bad unfortu nately no return at all, but perhaps they wou'.d not be over ectiraated at 100, each cuntainin .) thirty io'.nates, and this would give the large aggregate of :1,000 nuns for England and Wales. (Hear, hear.) A. young laity taking the veil might be looked upon as an insignificant circum stance, hut it should be recollected that there was nothing analogous to it in the institutioe, s of this country; there' ' was nothing like it, in fact, eXr,pt dying, because when a passed away entirely, not hew mast intimate friends. y on ou ly ng from womanihe public, took the ebuvtei,✓e !re m * " It might be urged, perhaps, that friends were allowed to THE. EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY EVENING. MAY 11, 1853.