The Express. — London, England, 1851-05-06 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS.-310Noes, MAT 3. The Loan Ciaxcemas took his seat at five o'clock. THE MERCANTILE MARINE ACT. Lard grANLity, pursuant to notice, presented petitions from Shields and Liverpool. praying for the repeal or an extensive modileatioa, of the Mercantile Marine Act. The petitions were well worthy of careful attention. The ped dles from Liverpool was signed by 6,000 of the merchants, WAIN, and seamen of that port. From several private ems smaiestions which he had had on the subject, as wells from the allegations in the petitions, the language of which was rather galena, he amid state to their lorilthips pews of the evils complained of. And, in the outset, he might say the act wee cempleiried of as having been founded too much on the reports of naval officers; and these who were practically concerned—as the masters and mates of merchant et-wels— hed not been sufficiently consulted. They complained of the rigorous enactments to which they a one, as marten sad mates, together with the seamen, were subjected. That part of the act which provided for the examination of , masters and mate* was likely toe be beneficial, but it wee complained that it had been Draught too ra nd suddenly into practice, and that It bore too hardly on old masters and mates of 20 and 26 years' sanding, as it debarred them from the exercise of same parts of their profeseioe, unless they would submit to an examination by persona who were buys when they first went to sea. Ile knew they could obtain certificate* of service ; but they eomplained that even with such certifi tes they were not allowed to take charge of any govern ca mint ship or say ship freighted with government stores or emigrants; whilst no such restriction was put upon the captains of foreign ships which entered into competition with therm and obtained • portion of the carrying trade. He thought some indulgence might be shown to these old ' masters and metes. Then as to the operation of the ticket system, under the Merchant Seamen's Act, they objected to the constant interference of the government ; they objected also to the amount of fees, and to the application of the surplus of those fees; as also to the minute restric tions which have been imposed by the Board of Trade, subjecting seamen to deductions from their pay. Then with regard to the fees charged and the manner in which they were charged the complaint on this point rather applied to the manner in which the act had been practically worked out than to any fault in the set Beat In Liverpool it appeared there was only one master or shipping officer, which caused great difficultv and expense to the men who had to peas. The fees paid in Liverpool alone under the act amounted to between 13,0001. and 14,0001. a year, and in the l:nited Kingdom the fees reached no less a sum than about 130,0001. • year, and this amount was raised partly by fines and de ductions. It was important for the seamen to le eata.fied with the application of the fund raised ; but this was far from being the case. It must go first towanis the nsaintenanee of the staff, no doubt ; but there was • go. amid impression that any surplus which might arise INS intended to be applied to the Seernen'e Homes. These SO doubt were valuable institutions, and in their origin were iatended to he • refuge for seamen against the frauds practised on them by crimp+, but when they came to be half self.eupported and half maintained by • general tax levied on all seamen it became them to ace how such in stitutions were likely to benefit the whole claw. He did not wish to say a word against the Seamen's Home in Liver pool, for he believed it was under the best management; but it was, after all, no more or less than • superior class of boarding-house, and married men who bad their wives and families. to go to could derive no advantage from it. Single men, moreover, when they could nut pay 115. • week, were turned out and exposed to all the evils of the crimping sys tem. Ile intended, on an early day, to recommend the prayer of the petitioners with a view to apply a remedy to the evils complain. d of. (Hear, hear.) Earl GEA N V !LLB (who was very indistinctly heard) was omit:rebind to my that the Board of Trade would be dispioeil to attend to the suggestion, which had been made, but in many eases the seamen had been labour ing under • compli te misapprehension of the meaning of the act. it was true that masters with certificates of ser vice only were debamal from the command of government venal., and, no doubt, it was • hardship ; but certain de partmenle of the government refused to employ any captain who could not pewter, a certificate of having passed an examination. As to the registry ticket, the noble lord had stated some reasons why they should not be done away with ; and it must be remembered that they would be very useful in c.i.e of • mold. n emer,..eney—in the event of war. (Hear, bear.) They must nemsoarily be useful to prisms of good reputation, and would only be objected to by men of bad character. With reference to the shipping officer in Liverpool, although there was only one, he had several deputies, and the duties were performed satisfacto rily. As to thu sundae, it had been under consideration whether it should all be applied to the Seamen's flume, or partly to the porpoos of eduvation ; and the suggestion of the noble lord would certainly have great w, fight. But as there ma. no surplus at present, it would be premature to determine how it wan to be disposed of. With the assistance of the Ma rine Board, • few regulation. had been printed and 'usual by the burl of Trade, but there was no compulsion as to their being adopted by masters or crew, either of whom might object to them it they pleased. The hoard of 'trade had re cently sent cirectlan to Liverpool and some of the other large ports, stating that, as some misapprehension seemed to exist as the subject of these rigulatimie, it might be desirable that they Should be withdrawn ; but the replies which they had received were all to the effect that it was better to leave them fur the masters and seamen to peruse. l• conclunon. he might observe that it was not the inten tion of the government to propose any important mudigca tionsof the bill of last year. The Earl of HAKIM HAKE had no doubt that if the act hail Naomi some time ago, before the repeal of the sad gatiou laws, it would have been carried into effect without ar any de:ally ; but, at this period of distress =Mist the nirre.ustile navy, it was DO matter of sur prise to him that they wen: dissatisfied with its provisions. Earl WALDEGRAVE, who was all hut inaudible in the gallery, observed that he knew of on class of institutions I a hich seamen derived su mach benefit as the sailors' home". _ . 1 he petition WU then ordered to lie on the table. Their lordship‘ adjourned at a quarter to 7 o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS.-MONDAY, Mkt 5. TM Breassit took the chair shortly before 4 'cluck. I'ItIVATE BUSINESS. The following bilis;crc se;crally read a third time and passed : Edinburgh, Perth, and Dandee Railway ; Man chester and Aiihtiin-under-Lyne New Road ; South Devon Railway, and York, Newcastle, and Berwick Railway (aroutuvut of part of Bishop Auckland branch, Re.) ; WATRRFORD, WEXFORD, WICKLOW, AND DUBLIN RAILWAY RILL. . . . Sir W. VERN bit begged to move " That it be an in struction In the eommittev (Uroup 1:1) on the Waterford, Wexford, Wieling, and Dublin Railway Bill, to consider and n•port to this house as to the propriety of winding up and dissolving the company (instead of prolonging the same), having regard to the judgment of the Master of the Rolls regarding the same, the pledges of the directors to the shareholders in June and August loot to do so, the state and nun.igement of the company, and the papers laid be fore this boor." Mr. LABOUCIIERE said that, as the motion was • eery unusual tine, the house should be very cautious in adopting it. The motion of the bun. baronet was founded on a dis pute long rusting between • portion of the shareholders and dimetors of the company. Now the rule laid down by that house, in all matters of railway undertaking, was to consider the directors as the representatives of the company. The fact was, the company was then. before parliament with • bill to amend a portion of their undertaking; and the peuu TI sought to be allowed to state their reasons fur abandoning the undertaking altogether. Now, if the direc tors had dune anything contrary to law, they were amenable before a legal tribunal; but It would be highly inexpedient, in the ease of a private bill, then lb fore a committee of that house, to allow any private dispute to interfere with them, the weather. of the committee, in the performance of their duty. lle therefore hoped the hon. baronet would not per severe in hi. motion. (Ilear, hear.) bit. W. V katNElt, alter • few observations, withdrew the motion. . W. I'.t rapremed his mtisfaction at the with drawal of the lima/Innen, as be should hare oppomil it on the grounds of WI nonconformity with the rules of the Mue. PUBLIC BUSINESS. ENNISTYMON UNION. Air L. '''''''''''''''''''''''' the dismissed rardisas of the Annistymon urns ' and moved that it be rhe intended to call attc to ntiou it on a futon, C. l.d ellear. herr ) Itt;CLLSIASTICAL TITLES BILL. _ . . . _ On the order of the day fur going into committee on this bill, Sir B. HALL said that, as the government had post poned this misissore, he begged to postpone the question 'which, in somplimme with the notice given by him, he in tended to psi te Imo prime minister, namely," what stops the orebbisbops nod Illshops of the established chervil had taken in pu rows* of do hatter addressed by the Secretary of State to this Asidirlbsp et Canterbury, by command of her ldate.ty, Gse the geir r : summating certain practices in places of worship he 'ng to the established church." le LITAN SEWERS. Sir B. ILALL pre sober of another question which he would to•socrow ask Lord Ebrington regarding these HESSEN. WMANUII, O'DONOOHUE, AND O'DERTY. Kr. A.NSTSY pewnotice that to-morrow he would put a question .to the bola. gentlemen the Under Secretary for the Colonies the vomit treatment of Messrs. O'Doherty. N'lLarY, end O'Doneghue, at present under seuwace tile, and who had been deprived of their tickets of leave awl sent to panel settlement by Sir W. Denison, governor of the colo a ny. WWI MEN IS SERVING IN INDIA. Mr. F. M 1. LE, in mower to Colonel Lindsay, stated that it was the intentioned the Horse Huard. to carry out, es far preeticsible. the rules in whimsies to nniasents waving in India not be=spoess rind of 13 years, sakes ender ea- Inordinacy UHT ELECTION. Mr. H. PALS= waved that tin teaks et Kr. Bradman r i altst be take& iale esomieratisa. Cartel& mall be hod a ersaluoletiara to pm sal dasabee based des bea. gew. demo wield alai of We mein to-warnew. Mr. R. P wee gale to he the to-Tarnow, but Da ti= l l l l tone he +esti twee that this natter be rehessite a select easonittee. Lent J. RUSSELL theeebt k would be better toe the lease to bass both Widows bears it preTiow to nein In emy Ira PODMOW lin I. mii, ad in -_ Mitre gew at Ow first Oki Ilitra.n. le collidrawn now and ite l.4llll 74llth nig it dirlirs se - - \ L l •,t- 7 p eillelleee with .tson,leave. ean BO DE ItO ass preemeled kis peti which was ordered to be parr with the atm PROPERTY AND INCOME TAX BILL. On br the order , of the day for goi n g into committee es this bill ad' Lord J. SELL mid—Before you proceed is ib. re. re. of this bill, with regard to property of kg= I think it desirable that either my right MI. the Cheneallor of the Exchequer or myself shoal Mrs the erns we purpose to • pones with round to this easmare, as well a the dareial Romp to general of the country. (Seer, Iter.) As it ie a nmilne that fespatitthe yernament ia I thought it bare that 1 *en mice upon myself r at tatt i. of stalk* it to the bones. The hems ea Friday Idgill. by • • 11 =421 came to the daskies that ose t er se Instead of be the period throug whisk the and berm an should lest. The he n h em torn foe Ifs ems (Mr. Hume), who mob the setter, mated se his wound for doing so that it woo theirable that inquiry shoat take place with regard to this tax, with • view to make it mon just; and that, alteration and modification being introduced tho tax should be continued. (Hear) 1 000ul sot wet then, nor as I now agree is the orehron whet it ins de. sirsble to abridge the dentist of the tax far that purpose. 1 think it would be better it as • matter of principle, the I house had been asked to agree to inquiry with a new to the 1 modification of the tax as regards its general principle : but ' the house having decided otherwise, it was for us to consider what course we should take so as to maintain the public credit and financial system of the country. Now, although, in my opinion it is very inexpedient so far is plans this tax in jeopardy by altering its du- Tries ban three years to one year, yet I eaa aot senior that the majority of the house who "peed isi ocraining that motion entertained any view or totes tVet whatever to jeopardise the public credit of the country. (Criss of " hear, hear.") I could not suppose so, because the house at its first assembling, after the general election, showed its determination as well to sustain the public cre ditor, as to provide for the necessary establishments of the country. I could not so suppose, because amongst the mem bers who voted fur the motion of the hon. member for Montrose, were many distinguished,both by their acts and speeches, fur their determination to maintain the public credit and provide the necessaries of the public service. Therefore, concluding such to be the intention of these hon. members, we have to consider whether or not we am adopt the resolution of the house, and proceed with the bill in its present state. Now, many gentlemen, who, in private, have argued this question with me, stated there was a general impression prevalent through the country that this tax, which is unequal at present, should be made more equitable and just. 1 have replied to than that Mr. Pitt, as well as Sir Robert Peel, and others de had been in office and engaged in carrying out the financial arrangements of the country, had always come to a different conclusion. It has been replied to me that .` the conclusion to which they came should be supported by inquiry, and that the country would feel satisfied by the result. That, on the other hand, it should be shown that the tax, by a modification, could be made more fair and equitable, and that in such cue alterations might be adopted ; so that, in either way the tax might be safe." I have no doubt that these gentlemen who expressed such opinions in private, acted tutirely on that view in supporting tho motion of the hon. member fur Montrose on Friday night. Seeing, then, that the house, contrary to our opinion, has come to that conclusion, we think it desirable in the present state of affairs, that there should be an inquiry on the subject. (Cries of .. Hear, hear.") I think, such being the decision of the house, it would not be fair or wise to attempt to refuse or evade that inquiry ; bat that there ought to be a fair in quiry, and that it should be conducted by the men who, in this house, arc generally the leaders in financial subjects,assd to whom the house is disposed to pay every deference. 1 have further to say that the governelent is prepared to institute a full and fair inquiry into this subject. (Hoer, hear.) but, sir, a further question naturally arises, and that Is whether, accepting the income tax for a year only, we can allow of any further modification of that tax, aad whether we can in any other respect disturb the Amara system of the year, which my nght hon. friend has posed. Now, in reference to this point we have to ooaaiaer that the house, by its previous vote, agreed to a continu ance of the income tax fur a limited period, and rejected the motion of the right hon. gentleman the member be Stamford, who proposed that • part of the income tau equivalent to the eliding surplus should be applied to a in:minion of so much taxation. The house likewise agreed to the proposition of my right hon. friend fur a repeal of the window duty, and for supplying a part of the deficiency occasional by the los of that tax, by a tax on a more equitable principle, levied on the owners and occupiers of house property. The house also agreed without a division, I believe, to the resolution of my right hon. friend, with respect to the timber and ("ite duties, which resolution formed • main portion of the proposition for the filmingl arrangements of the year. Now we should be extremely reluctant to forego the repeat of the window tax, which we regarded not so much as a peat financial burden as a great social evil. (11car, hear.) We considered, therefore, it would be a great misfortune if we were ohigeal to maintain that tax which the house resolved to get rid of ; but at the same time we must consider that in order to carry that resolution into effect we ought to have it made clear to us that during the pendency of the inquiry no further alteration of the income tax, no diminution of the produce of that tax ' is to take place ; and, in the next place, that there is to, be no further bunlen thrown upon the finances of the country, so as to deprive the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the means of upholding the public credit, and meeting the coat of those public establishments which the house has agreed should be maintained. (Hear, hear.) In asking thus much, I don't think I am making any unreasonable requirement of the house. We propose, therefore, to go on with the income tax altered and limited as it is by the proposition of nip hon. friend, but in doing so we expect that the income tax shall pass without further modification, and likewise that dm whole revenue, which we hope to se cure will 1w secured to us, so as to enable us to repeal the window tax, and to carry into effect the resolutious with regard to the timber and coffee duties. (Hear, hear.) I may perhaps ask the house to allow me to correct a mis conception which seemed to prevail on Friday night iu the mind of any hon. friend. My bon. friend seemed to think that 1 reproached him for asking for the aid of a party with whom he does not agree in general political sentiment, and supposing that such was the case, he said that that was often my own etlldtioll. But I made no such reproach to my hon. friend on that subject. 1 think that when parties happen to agree on the immediate question before the house, it is evidently quite natural that they should agree also in their vote. But observing what the motive of my hon. friend was in making his proposition I said I did not think he and gentlemen opposite were agreed in the ultimate obect at which they aimed. For I instance, when had the support of honourable gentlemen on the opposite side of the house on questions relating to the military and naval establishments, they acted with me because they saw the same danger that I did, in the diminutiou of those establishments. But the case on Friday night was • different one, because my hon. friend had in new the maintenance of the property and income tax, and he only wished for a modification of it with a view to its retention, whilst those gentlemen opposite who voted with him, to the number, 1 'believe, of 200, meant generally to express by their votes that they wished to limit It without any modification, and ultimately to do away with it altugether—(hear, hear)—and I only pointed this out r a reason why my h on. friend; could not expect that boa gentlemen opposite would go with him into further °ppoon. (Hinz hear.) But as this question will be tubmittref to further inquiry, I trust the house and country will be sslisfied if it should appear as the result of this inquiry either that this tax can not be made more equitable without either exceedingly diminishing its amount or making it ten times more ismer sauna' than it is at present ; or if the house and the twos try should not be satisfied in this respect, and if it should appear to the house and country in general that •modificas lion of the tax should take place, so as to make it more jar and equitable, my hon. friend will have a great success—a certainly success which I do not envy him—for it is • success which is fairly due to him, as having made • preposition which caused this species of tax to be more tolerable to the country than it is at present. (Hear, hear.) Such is the course which &c government proposes to take. I wish to state the matter fairly to the 110011 f, and to aware my lea. 1 friend that the host thing I should think of doing would be that of evading inquiry. (Hear, hear.) Mr. HUME quite agreed with the noble lord in the assumption that supposing his motion should be acceded le no further alteration of the tai should bo proposed this Iyear. (Hear, hear.) Whatever the result of the inquiry should be, and even if it should be found that no immove ment could be effected, the country would be satisfied that everything had been done to remove all the evils of the tax. He hoped, therefore, that the gallant o ffi cer (Colonel Sib thorp) who had a motion on the paper fur the relief of • particular class, would not press it. (Hear, hear.) Mr. DISRAELI said that after the vote which the house had come to on Friday night, and after the notification of the noble lord, that a committee should he appointed to in quire into this subject, it appeared to him to be desirable, that with so short • lease of this tax, there should be so criticism of its details. (Hear, hear.) There certainly was one motion, that of his hon. a nd gallant friend the for Lincoln, which was deserving of the special earldoms. tics of the committee, and although perhaps his boa and gallant friend might not think it altogether desirable Ise him to take exactly the same course which he meant eels ginally to have done, yet he hoped that her I;l:Vglihe I Meters would take into consideration the d . ~ting the principle of that motion, that IMO farmers of England should be rated in the same =MIR le the tax as were all other interests. (Hear.) Me tbOgkts would be quite consistent with the wish not to e further on the bill to comply with that request. A regard to the remarks of the noble lord, as to the gesaliely in the views of the hon. member for Montrose, aid =nee his aide of the house who supported ea aocioo. he that they had fully and fairly a camnion of ject in Arr. It might be that the boa member for Montrose wished the imams tax to be permission. That certainly wee pet dile view. Their object was to get rid of the tax,. mt Ong wished to do so gradually. But when there was wo ikkor saes of the tax being mar permeeent, or at lend s tinuity of it, was it not their duty is endeavour to mis s more equitable ? Lord J. RUSSELL said he weal not wake any with respect to the latter part of * Criss. gamines. But with regard to Me that re govemment might a to tomer*. gisimkk of On tesant-farmars hum Moire I Mt Ilikkb DA, Oda J. V id l aem -17- 14000‘ .11 : 1 4 1.111lai nieer, kw-) ram W speak, bat N mid that there was no question before sag s treacles, is elder that the committee &NM be Wire he he gyeardiage. he should put the Mike dean lottairesabd, Wad part of the bill. SIBTHORP said that this was a question which moth attention. Ile never had shrunk from his hel he sew mama He wanted to know, there bre, alai Obaseeller star Exchequer intended to do with Res team, amen ? The MANCELLOR et the EXCHEQUER said that he ewe& net possibly see what exactly was the object of his lea, and gallant relative—(laughter)—in asking this He thought that it had been fully answered by Cril i te Mend the Firm Lord of the Treasury. (Hear, bear.) It appeared to him that it would be quite fruitless to dames in the house a subject that was to be discussed in the committee. Several motions and amendments having been with drawn, Mr. SPOONER makable& sabeadawents to the following effect :—" Allowable awl tielaettea from duties under schedule A to the Mt i mad 6 Vie., a 36, for repairs, and for rent irrecoverably lied. The repeal of the power of distress on lands in the cesapetion of a person who was not in the occupation thereof at the, time the duties , became due. Giving the power of appeal to persons assessed under schedule B, either as owners of land in their own occupa tion or as tenants, in raped of Imes. Exemptions of per sons charged under schedule D and E, whose income is less than 1 a year, by reason of payment of premium on life insurance." lie thought his hon. and gallant friend had acted wisely in not pressing his motion, but he would not assent to itif he thought the effect would be to fix upon the farmers • gross injustice for another year. What he (Mr. Spooner) proposed was, that on an appeal showing either that the tenant had actually lost, or that the far mer had not received any rent, the property tax should be deducted. If the right hon. gentleman did not grant the required appeal, the hon. and gallant mem ber would, he hoped, renew his motion. Sir T. D. ACLAND would recommend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to concede what was asked. Mr. ALCOCK did not wish to see the farmer exempted from the payment of income tax on his real profits, but strongly objected to his being called upon to pay it on the bens of what the right hon. gentleman arbitrarily stated to be his income. If the right hon. gentleman did not make the required concession voluntarily, the house would, he trusted, compel him to make it. Mr. BANKLS admitted, that under ordinary circum stances it would be reasonable to ask the tenant-farmers to submit to the tax, without alteration, for another yew; bat seeing that at the opening of the session their great and peculiar distress was admitted in the speech from the throne, and that ministers had since refused any aerie ton, he thought the tax ought not to be renewed without some modification as respected them. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said they were getting into discussion on the whole principle of the mode in which the assessment under Schedule It was made. (Hear, bear.) The truth was, that all the questions were so linked together that it was almost impossible to deal with any one of them fairly, and to give it the consideration which was necessary, and which it deserved, without going into the whole matter. Ile believed that the farmers of England paid less in proportion, in ordinary times, far less than the tradesman paid under Schedule 1). lion. gentlemen must see that it was hardly possible to deal with one portion of the subject without entering ,into the whole. Moreover if the anticipations of hon. gentle men opposite were correct, the present state of things would prove still more favourable to the farmers than it had been contemplated it would do. No hon. gentleman would contend that in the long run farmers would not make something like what was made in ordinary trades ;1 sad the consequence must be that • tax calculated on rent would be reduced far more rapidly than a tax on theprolits of trade. If, therefore, the income tax were levied with reference to rent, that mode of levying would be more to farmers in time to come than it had been hitherto. The present mode of assessment, he considered, would be the best on the whole fur the farmer; and, as • landlord, be thought the wisest course would be to renew the tease it stood for a year, and to go into the various questions as a whole in committee. lie quite agreed that the farmers had an equitable claim to be put on schedule D ; but, granting that, logically, he was still of opinion, that it would be a bad thing fur :the farmers themselves. If he were to surrender on the one side, he surely ought to be allowed to surcharge on the other. lie was prepared, how- I ever, to stand by the arrangement as it stood. Col. 8111THORP stated that after the discussion that had taken place, he thought the best course would be to I withdraw his motion, reserving to himself the power if discussing the principle on a future OCCWOOII. lle berg. however, there would be a suspension of financial arrange. ment until the committee was appointed. (A laugh.) After some discussion, Mr. HUME having stated his intention to move for the committee to-morrow (this day), Mr. SPOONER stated that he would withdraw his motion then, to bring it up again on the report. Clause 1 having been put and agreed to, Mr. CHAPLIN moved • proviso to the second clause giving the parties who were assessed under schedule 13 the same privileges as to appeal, etc., as were given to those assessed under the other schedules. The proviso was ultimately withdrawn. On the motion that clause 2 should stand part of the bill, Mr. FRESIIFIELI) said he reserved to himself the right of proposing amendments in a future stage. The clause was then agreed to, as were clauses 3 and 4. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the two last clauses were unnecessary, as the bill was only for one year. Mr. J. B. SMITH moved the addition of the following clauses: "That all appointments to any offices authorised to be made by Local Commissioners of Property Tax shall be subject to revision by the Lords Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury. That no appointment to any office under the provisions of this act shall be made of persons under twenty-one years of age." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought the clauses had better not be pressed, as the whole of these questions would doubtless come before the select committee. The clauses were then withdrawn. Mr. MACGREGOR said that in consequence of the Course taken by her Majesty's government, with which he was perfectly satisfied, he begged altogether to withdraw the amendments of which he had given notice. The bill then passed through committee, and the house resumed. In reply to Mr. Srooßra, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was not his intention on to-morrow (this day) to raise a discus sion by bringing up the report. ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES ASSUMPTION BILL. The further consideration of this bill was postponed to Friday next. SUPPLY.—OFFICIAL SALARIES. Oa the motion for going into committee of supply, Lord J. RUSSELL said ho had already promised that when this motion was made, he would state to the house the views the government had taken of the report of the special committee on salaries. After stating that they did not propose any alteration in offices of great importance, the committee proceeded to the consideration of the ap pointments to the treasury ; and their first recommendation was, that the lords of the treasury should receive 1,0001. a year, instead of 1,200/. ; and that the two secretaries to the treasury should receive 2,0001. a year each, instead of 2,5001. The government agreed to that recommendation. The committee did not propose any alteration in the sala ries of the secretaries of state. They said that the office of Committee of Privy Council had duties of great importance annexed to it on the subject of education, and they did not think • salary of 2,0001. a year to the persons holding that high office was an extravagant sum, or that it ought to be reduced. They recommended that the railway duties, as was in contemplation, might be again discharged by the Board of Trade, and that steps be taken to consolidate the railway department with the Board of Trade. The President of that board (Mr. Labouchere), looking at the extent of the duties, had come to the conclusion that tho business might be done with the saving proposed by the committee, and therefore the railway commiouoners would no longer be separate from the railway committee. The next question he would take in connexion with two other questions namely, the salary of the Presi dent of the Bt:ard of Trade, which they recommended should be united with the salary of the Paymaster of the Forces, that these two offices should be conjoined, and that, instead of 2,0001. a year for each, the salary should be 1,5001. for the joint office. They recommended that the office of Lord Privy Seal should be joined with some other offices, and that there should be no salary attached to the holding of the privy seal. With regard to the Master of the Mint, they recommended that that office sh lv o c:,iig u i l y l retot be otoandayna n ity o longer held by a salaried officer. In considering these ques tions, the government had endeavoured to comply, as far es was consistent, with the recommendations of the com m ittee, but, at the tam: time, there were important considerations laid before the committee by Sir R . Peel and by other pee- sow having great experience in public affairs, to wham, the committee did net seem to have paid any attention la dab recommendations. It certainly appeared to him (Lad J. Russell) that it was of advantage as • general proposition that there should be some member of the government whom Ales should not be of so laborious a nature that he should piniciag aot weistionsho lse h. a d bl arodk e ari todi pial iharg pswhie:c e t,hu o ee th didant e hs r d d tso u ththat ti te es rop . rowif l pee t rer w thiy a fro s eybe o m b Ab L is ed r. prol igewywd et.ta r om l a y_ apec a tbh t i y te f e twa in seit d o etl mithaiz Wa i y : e tCl e treter . r veope uweima i tyat f 4 th .thandwoori t e lia l ..7 :r e e o; ° : am ver t tt atirpe i e -d- itier i , i 47 d i re: hoilbehatear to hold were se mai mere aim& Now, beam beeisese Ilia they heel been at kiwi an. esilaimilir iudna mad bomiy - iiie i 4111.1 thsbaisairaat =y very . Imla 1F11° . ! maa-,auelt. he breerree, sod o a seguelties et the sad the merlegee culture- na Ida& wee uater his ova erraheerisa whoa he wes Papuan of the Forces— !** eadeadoil last if they had set seem Aber of the go verment win* timid slog to throe affairs it was hardly dfive am ecision gpbo one reason for net eutireli iho anly a little labour was attached. Ant very frequently there were per ery great attention to public affairs, entered office at a time of life and in • state of health which precluded them from accepting any very laborious duties. At the same time such persons might be of the greatest service in assisting with their advice and opinions. It might be said that their assistance might be secured by giving them • nominal office without any salary attached. That might be true with regard to persons of consi derable fortune. Persons who kept establishments in London might accept one of these great offices and nut re ceive any salary; but he thought that would be a very bad principle to adopt in the public service of this coun try. (Hear, hear.) The tendency of any such alteration would be to make office attainable and compatible only with persons of very considerable fortune. He held that to bo • great evil. Hear, hear.) If they said that persons of moderate fortune should not be able to hold any great offices in the state, but that they must be given to men of very considerable fortune, an impediment would be put in the way of talent, in the way of men of the highest abilities, who perhaps devoted their time in this and the other house of parliament, but who could not afford to take those offices without a salary. If any man would look at the course of official life in this country, he would perceive that offices in the cabinet had been held by persons of different pursuits,who ventured into politics with some wish to take part in the service of their country, but whose natural occupations were to live in the country in the enjoyment of their property, and in the pursuit of sources of amusement, and in the perform ances of other duties. lie might mention, for instance, the I Lord Privy Seal, and the Luke of Buccleugh, and others ' of great fortune—men, who could hardly be expected to leave entirely their other duties and enjoyments, in order to devote their time and unremitting labour to one of these offices. But, it was a great advantage to unite with official life men of those habits ; and if we had a set of men devoted to offiessand office alone, without an admixture of others en smeasionally different pursuits and mingling with their it would be a great alteration for the worse. (Soar, heir.) Therefore, in corning to a conclusion sa bum points, the government had so far agreed with the amnitlee that he proposed to separate that which haft oat been sepuated for • very long tinse— ls, swat the office of master of the Mint altogether from *Wog life ; and had her Majesty's permission to offer that Wise to Sir John Henschel', he being connected with science mil the holder of a distinguished name. (Cheers.) Therefore, the office of master of the Mint would no longer be as it had been, apolitical office,as held by Mr. Tierney,nor would it be combined with the Pnsident or Vice-President a the Board of Trade, as it was in the case of Mr. Glad stone and Mr. Labouehvre. The office of paymaster of the faeces was formerly an office of very great emolument, and I was held by Lord Chatham. lie (Lord J. Rumen) proposed to continue the office of paymaster f the brous with that of Vice-president of the Board of Trade, but when the two offices were combined he did not propose an increase of salary ; on the contrary, he proposed, in ac cordance with the recommendation of the committee, • diminution of 5001. in the salary of the office. The office must be held by one of considerable political importance ; mg as the Presideut of the Board of Trade sat iu that Imre, and the vice-president of the board in the other, WAlllk lithe duties of the office might be discharged in the Lank The government did nut propose to abolish the office of Lord Privy Seal, because they aossidered its maintenance necessary. No proposal had been made by the committee with regard to the office of Secretary at War; and therefore he would pass on to notice that they recommended that the Judge Advocate should have only 1,5001. • year instead of 2,0001.; nail this reduced salary would commence on the next appoint ment to tho office. With regard to the Admiralty, they proposed that the salaries act the junior lords should he I,OOW. instead of 1,2001. a year, and that those who now had 1,0001., with residences, should reside in those resi dences. The government were of opinion that there was great convenience in the lords having residences at the Admiralty, and they proposed to reduce the salaries of those who had not residences to 1,0001. a year, and to con tinue the residences to those who already possessed them. With regard to the Chief Secretary for Ireland, the com mittee recommended a reduction of his salary at the close of the present parliament of front 5,500/. to 3,0001. per annum. This reduction was unquestionably connected with the aboli tion of the office of lord lieutenancy. of Ireland. lie did not think it necessary to enter upon the question of that aboli tion at present, as it must before long conic under the con sideration of the house ; but if the office was maintained, he had no hesitation in saying it would be right to make sumo reduction in the salary of the Chief Secretary. ' , (Boar.) The committee next proposed that the duties of secre tary of the poor-law board be performed for 1,0001. n-year instead of 1,21101., and the government assented to that pro position. With regard to judicial salaries there were considerations of very great importance which must not be overlooked. Ile held that the persons to be placed in the highest offices in the judicial es tablishments should be men of great eminence, high legal reputation, and of foremost standing at the bar. Ile was now alluding to such offices u that of Lord Chancellor, the Chief Justices, the Master of the Rolls, and others of that description. It had been argued in the committee that there were men of very sound judg ment and competent learning who might be quite as lit to be placed in the highest judicial situations as those who were foremost at the bar. '!'here was no doubt that men of that description might be found. But he did not think it' desirable as a rule that the ancient practice of promoting men of the greatest eminence to those high offices should be departed from. (Hear, hear.) It was for the government still to continue to appoint men to vacancies whom they believed to be possessed of sound judgment and competent learning—who had run an arduous race of legal competition, and who had been successful. It was quite obvious that men who have done this must be men of colutide ruble talent. Besides in looking back at the men who had been successful as Attorney-Generals or who had gained great eminence at the bar--sueh for in stance as Lord Camden, Lord Hardwick, Lord Eldon, and Lord Mansfield—it could not be thought that the country had been a loser by the practise of choosing from the most popular and distinguished men of the time. But if they had these eminent persons, they could not expect to obtain their services unless their salaries were somewhat commen surate with their gains at the bar, because many of them had to make some provision for their families, and it would be a great public misfortune and a reproach to the country, if their families, owing to the diminished means of the judges, were reduced to privation. It appeared by the evidence of Chief Justice Wilde, now Lord Chancellor, that there were at present about eight gentlemen at the bar making about 8,0001. a-year, and 24 leaders making about 5,0001. a-year. He (Lord J. Russell) proposed by his Court of Chancery Bill, that the salary of the Lord Chancellor, which was now 10,0001. a year from one source, and 4,0001. from another, should in future be re duced to 10,0001. a year. Thecommittee had proposed a re duction in the salary of the Master of the Rolls from 7,0001. to 6,0001. a year, and the government acceded to that pro posal. He proposed that the salaries of the chief justices should be the same as those contained in the bill of last year, vie., that the Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench should receive 8,0001. a year, the other Chief Justice and the Chief Baron 7,0001. a year, and the twelve palm° judges 5,0001. • year. Tho committee recommended that the Vice-Chancellor should have 5,0001. a year, and the masters in Chancery 2,0001. • year each. Considering the important duties performed by the Masters in Chancery it had not been thought advisable to make any change at present; the salary, at present, being '2,5001. • year. The salaries, he thought, had formerly been 3,0001. and 3,5001. a year. At the same time it was to be borne in mind with regard to Masters in Chancery that the whole question of Chancery reform was under consideration, anfl that there might be or might not be some change recom mended in respect to those officers; and ter those reasons, among others, he did not see that it was desirable to effect any change just at this mo ment. Of course all the changes to which ho was now alluding were changes that would not affect per sons who had been appointed to offices before the com mencement of the present year. The committee recom mended a scale of salaries for Scotland and Ireland, which would boa diminution to a certain amount, bat not to any very large amount, and from which but • very small saving would accrue to the public, and which, he owned, he did not think it at all expedient should be made. The same observation applied both to Scotland and Ireland, but more especially to Scotland. Referring to Lord Palmerston for tulles. explanations, Lord J. Russell outlined the changes proposed is the diplomatic service, by which the British re presentative at Paris—to whom it was judged politic to continue the dignity of ambassador—was to have his 10,0001. a year cut down to 8,0001. Turkey, also, was still to have an ambassador, in whose income no change was designed. The ambassador at 'Vienna had already been turned into an envoy, and some retrenchment thereby effected. To ' the proposition to unite in one the various German missions, he found a temporary objection in the distracted state of continental polities, but thought it possible to dispense with one of the missions now main tained in Italy, and suggested that the minister now at Florence might fulfil the duties of diplomatic envoy at' Rome if an official intercourse was established between the court of St. James's and the Vatican. Lord J. Russell con eluded by describing the innumerable labours, cares, and anxieties inevitable to the due performance of high public i dutie., and submitted that the national interests were far more deeply concerned in having the work done well than done cheaply. it was not so much the salary so the service on which • real benefit to the public might be secured. , Mr. URQUHART expressed his pleasure that the com mittee had at length enforced from the government some reduction in the diplomatic expenditure; thinking, at the same time, that it had not gone far enough. Ms. COBDEN pereeived that it was not the intention of government to take • discussion that night; and as he believed no members of the committee, with the exception of the member foe West Surrey (Mr. R. Drummond) and himself, were then puessut, it would, per hap s, be better to reserve all comment ma the statement made by the noble I lord until emit ether alladklel. He must say that ho was greatly Mat is large a proportion of the recom mendatiome of the monasitleo had been rejected. In respect especially to the diplomatic bran c h o f the service of the country, he had looked for great reductions. It was gene rally.felt bythe house that unless reductions took place in that direction; it was u•eless to hope for them in regard to the civil service ; and ho thought that the statement of the noble lord was directly in the face of the evidence taken before the eommittee. Russia was generally sup) yin k li e: THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY El, s iolAY 8, 1851, . , . ." .4 . , -f;\ A i.-, Naohi4 • ~ • . I would therapre 50 the ' 4l sthit al/ salsa •. • "eStrimarairalf. marten s o h ; the kind pa • -- .., T ; .....L.. , . order that *h itiiiellos _ spee d it • thee.* to be ' 4.. by_ en Aker end then brought nail atasts e sa w oxii , == h i tt .. la the tftemit-feamsre awn the On coasration of 'the members of the &MN ; rt ear ham)) It aril ilsbr mitifi tut s At 'beset would be fully qualified to . give i - \ it, • . so as to have a moderatimend right dean= gki thdrawn with leave. ' asswed in the OM 211110111 IN 6111101 and pro *ere r q tareition. Such was one reason for net entirely ab mated his petition, which assessed. Dot that woe a falleer with respect which fishing offices to which only a little labour was attache • vote& there was eiringienelin filantlemin ologinios--(hear, hear)— Another reason was that very f requen tl y t h en were pe )MB TAX BILL. sad therellee be ilierold lit see d& be store proper to have sons who had paid very great attention to public argil Le into committee on this it oonsifinrei log It• limilikle•.. 4 impezz, than that it and who perhaps entered o ffi ce at a time of life and is . influential is her do -o ambarailor, nal r • -oole. There r- possil to be Ai missies,el Constantinople. There was another power whose and Russia had no _ _..-uses, no t hing but Englan dample; A diplomacy had bent insuired bilelhy the committee, namely malie*, The ihnied EltaMemeettiemployed ambassadors, wilier., 'lid her mitilstMiefirmal more than 2,0001. a year. He bag asked the noble lord (Lord Palmerston) himself whether the American minister with his 2,0001. • year had lees weight than the English embessador with his 6,0001. a year, and the noble lord admitted that the fact was not so.: He regretted that the reconsmendations of the committee in regard to Germany had not been The to no ci bl e e rm lor a d ny aMd li th e is (m was r. n ad c o o o t hd p tre o ti t b i o th u to g e ht go u th n ve i unite the peculiarly the proper time. German polities were centred to a degree never before known in two capitals—Berlin and Vienna; and if, just now, an ambassadorship could be done without at Vienna, surely there could be no good objection to doing away with the embassies to the third and fourth rate courts of Germany. lie hoped that these matters would come before the house in a formal way k and that the house would not forego the opportunity of giving its opinion upon them. What the noble lord said with respect to the recommendation of the committee as to the abolition of offices to which no duties attached, involved • principle. The noble lord argued that it was desirable to have certain members of the government, without specific duties, in order that they might be at liberty to aid those of their colleagues who might be overworked. If the noble lord (Lord .1. Russell) could assure him that the parties who were appointed to these ofUccs were geue rally selected on account of their possessing the talents necessary to enable them to come if requisite to the aid of the other members of the government, he (Mr. Cobden) would say there was virtue in that policy. Ile admitted that them might be cases where such officers might render the government essential service; for instance, in such a ease as when the noble lord himself had been Paymaster of the Forces he had been able to come to the aid of his col leagues. It could not, however, be shown that these sine cure officers had been peculiarly valuable in any depart ment—that they had dune anything except in their own de partments, and in their own there had been generally nothing to do. (Hear, hear, hear.) Ho (Mr. Cobden) admitted that the members of the cabinet were fully worked, and earned the money they received. Money, however, was not the only remuneration they re ceived. If it were, he (Mr. Cobden) maintained that no money could remunerate the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) fur the great labour, the incessant trouble, and the constant anxiety, and tear and wear, which a prime minister in this country must go through. (Hear, hear.) lie (Mr. Cub den) maintained that the money did not constitute the re muneration of the members of government. It consisted of the great patronage, and the great glory, and the faun) which they enjoyed. And he hoped there was some pa triotism' re too, which find the ambition of statesmen, promptedand them to serve their country. (Hear, bear.) After sonic further observations, Mr. Cobden said he would be constrained to follow the example of his friend the lion. member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) and decline sitting on any committee when he found their exertions had been so abortive as they had been on the present occasion. Viscount PALMERSTON would follow the precept rather than the example of the hon. member for the West Riding of Yorkshire (Mr. Cobden), and would not detain the house for any great length of time. He was convinced that the public service of this country was greatly benefited by the nuiintenance of an ambassador at Paris as the representative of this country. The salary of that official they proposed reducing front 10,0001. to 8,000/. a year, and although the hon. member (Mr. Cobden) might think that the republican form of government might Justify a reduced scale of remuneration, yet nobody who knew anything of the state of society in France would my that there was that change in the habits of the people of Paris which seemed to be implied in the opinion of the hen. member (Mr. Cobden). English tra veller* must not now expect from the ambassador at Paris that large extent of hospitality which they had hitherto conceived it their right to receive and he (Lord Normanhy) his duty to give. (Laughter.) He (Lord Palmerston) thought it fair to his noble frieud (Lord Norinanby) to give him that public warning, seeing that the new arrangements as to passports would be likely to increase the number of traveller', and that each individual assumed that the pass port entitled him to the attention of the ambassador. An ambassador was also maintained at Coustantinople,where ho (Lord Palmerston) believed the interests of this country de manded the presence of such a functionary. The hon. member (Mr.Cobden) had said that one power which exercised au in fluence at Constantinople as great, if not greater, than this country had there no ambassador. Ile (Lord Palmerston) was perfectly willing to admit the extent of influence exer cised by Russia at Constantinople; but, considering the magnitude of the Russian empire, its proximity to Con stantinople, and its influence there, he was inclined to think that the influence of Itiesia at Constantinople would ho very much the same as at present, even though she were represented by is secretary. It had been said that the ministers of the United States only received 2,0001. a year, that their influence was as great as it would be were their salaries higher, and that therefore something like a similar salary would be sufficient for the ambassadors of this country. It was quite true that he (Lord Palmerston) bad stated to the hon. member (Mr. Cobden) what he was ready to repeat now, that when the American envoy came into his room he never measured the deference due to his posi tion, or the weight due to his influence, by the amount of salary he received; but, at the same time, he would venture to ' state that if they asked any impartial American citizen whether the public service did not suffer by the small sala ries paid, he would tell them that the salaries of the mi nisters were by far too low, and that they ought to be in creased. They had in this country a distinguished citizen of the United States occupying the position of minister. That minister, however, was possessed of an ample fortune which enabled him to live in a manner honourable to him self and the country which ho represented. But at former periods the position of representatives of the United States in this country had been painful to their own feelings, from its being impossible for them to return those social courtesies which every person in this country would be happy to evince to wards them, and he (Lord Palmerston) thought it would not be satisfactory to the feelings of Euglishinen that their ambassadors living in foreign countries should occupy a po sition different from gentlemen living in their own country. The hon. member (Mr. Cobden) had said that this time was peculiarly fitted for the abolition of the minor missions in Germany. It was true, as the hon. geode man (Mr. Cobden) had said, that the governments of Vienna and Berlin did exercise, as they must do, a preponderating influence over the affairs of Germany; but if there was anything peculiar in the affairs of Germany at the present time it did not favour the views of the hon. member. He (Lord Palmerston) had to remind the hon. gentleman that the old Diet of Frank furt was to be established, and that as the decisions of the Diet required to be unanimous, should any of the smaller states stand out, the result might be similar to what oc curred in 1818. (Hear, hear.) Ile (Lord Palmerston) could assure the house that the information front these smaller missions was frequently of the highest importance. Lord Palmer-ton concluded with some remarks on the sala ries of law officers. Mr. HUME referred to a former occasion, on which, ; when he had made a few observations, he ha d afterwards been precluded from making a motion which he had on the , paper, and begged to ask the Speaker if, should he offer a few remarks at present, he would be precluded from bring ing on the motion which s tood on the paper ? The SPEAKER replied that when a member had spoken once on the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair, it was against the rules of the house that he should again.speak Mr. A CME—That I say is an interference with the liberty of speech. (Laughter.) I am precluded by a rule you lay down from bringing on my motion, if I speak at present. The SFEAKEPs—I have laid down no rule on the mat ter. It was always the rule of the house that on the ques t tion that the Speaker leave the chair, hon. gentlemen ' might speak once, and if any hon. gentleman does speak once he could not speak again while the same question was before the house. Mr. HUME could only say that in his experience he had known three, four, and five questions raised. (Order, order.) lion. gentleman would allow him to express his opinions. (Cries of " Order," from the ministerial benches.) Hon. members on the bench beneath him (Mr. Hume) were obliged to be silent. They must take what ever was told them, and keep quiet. (The hon. member was here interrupted by an observation from the Attorney- General.) The Attorney-General might keep his observa tions to himself. He (Mr. Hume) thought that the salaries of diplomatista ought to be reduced. He did not see what use they could be In the present state of Europe. The noble lord had referred to the influence of Russia at Constantinople without having an ambassador there. Why, he would ask, did we keep up a large fleet in the Mediterranean, and require an am or also to keep op our influence? Ho would not go further on this, but, as he was not allowed to speak twit*, he would not sit down without calling the attention of government to the promotion in the navy. Sir F. T. BARING here rose as if to address the house. Mr. HUME.—When I sit down that right hon. gentle man can go on. (Laughter, amidst which Sir F. T. Baring resumed his seat, and Mr. Hume proceeded.) Two years ago the cost of the navy underwent a searching inquiry before a committee, and amongst the recommendations which the committee made, was one to reduce the number of admirals from 150 to 100. The motion which he had given notice to bring before the house was that that recommendation be carried out. lion. members, however, would be in possession of a paper dated 29th April, from which he learned that government proposed to'rectuee the number of edmirals from 150 to 100, of captains from 492 to 350, of commanders from 828 to 450, and of lieutenants from 8,247 to 1,200. It was satis factory to see that government was directing its attention to that department, and he was only sorry that they did not do it long sito. In consequence al W s proposal, the ground of his motion was taken from under him, but they were called upon for 6,5001. to carry this reduction into effect. As the object of his motion was effected, he should withdraw it. Sir F. BARING gave explanations in reply; and after some remarks upon the subject by Sir G. Pechell, Captain BOL.DERO complaind that the resolution of the house last session, that the accommodation for assistant surgeons on board ships of war is inadequate, had not been carried into full effect. Sir F. BARING assured the'hoase that it was the inten tion of the Admiralty that the resolution should be fully• carried out. After a kw remarks from Mr. Wakley, The conversation dropped. TILE HOP DUTIES. Mr. FREWEN brought before the house a grievance of which his constituents bitterly complained ; and which had caused the greatest distress amongst them. At the time the hop , dutles were passed, the country was at war, and they had beenregalated by the high priews then exist. tog. la 1&12, however, such was the distress produced by those duties, that the goyerameet of Lord Liverpool &dart enforce one moiety of them. The distress, however, had nut been so great as it was now, because then there was • protective duty of 84. 10s., which had since beau reduced to 121. 6s. Sebsequent gsvernmosts had several time, postponed the collection of the duties; and in 1848, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had postponed • moiety, but he had lately given notice that it must be paid within about ten days of the present time, and this had produced the most alarming digress. lie therefore begged to move: "'!'hat an humble address be presented to her Majesty, most respectfully to inform her Majesty that very great distreas exists in those districts of the county of Sumer whets hops are grown, and that it will be quite out of the power of the bop planters ii, that county to pay the excise duty on the crop of 114:4 during the pre sent year." Alter • few words from Mr. frethea, The CHANCELLOIt of the I; Xt;111:4 1 :1'.1t r, t ,clod to be obliged to uppuse the motion. so Ise was *war.. i..•t great distress existed in the locality referred to hy the ere, gen- Hernial. Ile wish e d to rail the attention of th• horse:, and of those gentlemen in particular who coots:ode I for the ne cessity of protection to egricultural re, to the present rather remarkable case. Thu hop growers possessed it complete monopoly. It was true that some five or six years since the protcaaing duty had Leon reduced, but not to such an extent as to encourage importation or to cause the slightest alteration in the price of the crop. Here they had an interest protected to the highest degree, yet they were plunged in deeper distress than producers who were exposed to competition. (Hear, bear.) In 1848 the hop growers complained of distress, and represented that if required to pay the duty on the crop of 1848, in 1849 they would be ruined; and therefore he (the Chan. cellar) postponed the payment of the first moiety. He had no doubt whatever the wide spread distress was entirely owing to the system of credit which prevailed in the district. lie thought no gentleman would deny the posi tion that, when producers possessed a monopoly they could exact from the consumer the full amount of the duty on the crop. They had dune so; but thou they had also in creased the hops crop to beyond all demand. In the three years, 1843, 1844, and 1840, the average produce was of each year 30,900,0001b'. of hops, which, having realised a good price in 1814, 1847, and 1848, the hop growers increased to 47,000,000145. In the next year the pro duce was small, and the price high; but in 1880 the produce was again exceedingly large, being about 48,000,090Ibe.; when, in consequence of the overgrowth, the prices fell. Therefore, in his opinion, the hop growers had by their prices realised the cost and duty paid on their crops ; and for that reason, not seeing the justice of their demand, he felt bound to oppose the motion. (Hear.) Mr. L. 110HGES (who was indistinctly heard) said that he hoped some relief would be given to the hop-plantern, who were in a very distressed condition. (Hear, hear.) Mr. BASS said that the growers of barley hail just as good • case to come before the house, and to ask for • remission of the malt duty, as the growers of hops. Mr. EWART said that the present proposition was moat unjust, for it asked fur relief for the hop growers only, whereas the hop dealers had as much right to consideration as the Mr h p op i s gro i t rs LI said he was somewhat surprised at the admissions of agricultural distress on the part of honourable gentlemeu who had opposed his mo- lion in reference to that subject. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman said that hops we're a protected inte rest, and that he could not interfere ; but he made pre. eisely the same Ammer when they asked him to interfere on behalf of an unprotected interest. (Hear, hear.) There was a reduction of one-fourth of the forego duty, and it was but reasonable to expect that the internal duty should be reduced at least in the same proportion. (Hear, hear.) There was nothing against free trade in sue!' a proposition, It was a proposition for which every free trader might vote, and he hoped they would vote for the motion of his hon. friend on this occasion. (Hear, hear.) Lord J. MANNERS accused Mr. Bass of not giving • fair statement of the condition of the hop cultivation. Lord J. RUSSELL said the member for Bucks (Mr. Dis raeli) had not quite correctly represented either the motion before the house or the present state of Ades. Any one might suppose from his statement that they had before them the case of a county and an interest which was suffering front a great importation of foreign produce. Now thu fact was that though the duty had been reduced, it had not been reduced to such • degree as to admit foreign hops except in a year of extra ordinary prices. (Hear, hear.) What slid the house think had been the importation of foreign hops? Had it been 1-10th or 1-20th of the whole production? (Hear, hear.) It had, in fact, been about the hundred and ninetieth part of the whole. (Hear ' hear.) To say, therefore, that th e hop ro gwers were injur ed by foreign competition we.. to make • statement not agreeable to the facts of the case. (Hear.) There had. certainly of late years been an immense increase in the production of hops. In 1843 the duty was charged on 27,800,00011 is.; in 1840, it was payable on no less than 48,000,00016 s ; and the natural consequence of this increase was a diminution of price. The hon. member tun Buck/ had represented the motion as one expressive of sympathy with the distress of one class of agriculturists. Now, what was really the motion before the house ? It was not merely a statement of distress, but it represented to her Majesty that these hepgrowcrs were unable in the present year to pay the duties chargeable against them by law, the inference in tended being that they were unable to pay that which was owing. That was certainly an extraordinary proposition. The hops had been sold at the price which they fetcheiLun der the supposition that the duty charged would be paid— (hear, hear) ;—and throe who had put the price so paid into their pocket were now asking to be released from their debt to the revenue. To such an unfair proposition the house could hardly be induced to agree. Mr. FItEWEN said the motion having been brought forward unexpectedly lie should nut divide, but merely in consequence of the state of the house. The motion was then withdrawn. The house then went into committee of supply. Sir F. BAILING proposed to take a vote the naval stores; Mr. MIME having observed that the vote was a very important one, and that it was then nearly 12 o'clock, the right hon. gentleman withdrew the vote. Sir F. BARING then proposed to take the vote for naval retirements, but that also was withdrawn on the same grounds as the previous one. The eIIANCELLOIt et the EXCHEQUEn. intimated that he wished to take a vote to defray the expense of the Kaffir war. (Much laughter.) The right hon. gentleman not persisting in his intention, The AMMAN reported progress, and. the !louse resumed. The report on the Process and Practice (Ireland) Bill was received. CHIEF COMMISSIONER OF WOODS AND FORESTS. Mr. COCHRANE moved fur returns of the attendance of the Commissioner of Woods and Forests, since the noble lord came into office .-1. At the Board of Woods and Forests, Works and Building=; 2. At the General Board of Health; 3. At the Commons Inclosure Commission; 4. As Chief Justice in Eyrc, North and South Trent; 5. As Ga yeller of the Forest of Dean; 6. As Commissioner of Green wich Hospital; 7. As Commissioner of Highland Roads and Bridges; 8. As Commissioner for the repair and maintenance of roads, bridges, and harbours, originally un der the care and management of the Commissioners of Holy head Roads; 9. As Commissioner for building churches; 10. As Commissioner for the conservancy of the Mersey; 11. As trustee fur the commissioners for the management of certain churches in Marylebone ; 12. As Commissioner for paving Regent-street; 13. As Commissioner tee Fine Arts; 14. As member of the council for the affairs of the Duchy of Cornwall ; hi. As Commissioner for the geological sur veys in Great Britain and Ireland, and the museums esta blished in London and Dublin; 16. As member of the commission fur the more effectual means of improving the metropolis; and of the number of boards held during the same period, that is, since the noble lord was appointed Comnussioner of Weeds and Forests-4. At the Board of Health; 2. At the Commons Inclosure Commission. The entoneration of the noble lord's multifarious duties created considerable amusement in the house. Lord SEYMOUR said that if the hon. member had any substantive charge of neglect of duty to make against him he should have given notice ; if not, the return would be mere waste paper. After a short conversation, the motion was withdrawn. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. Mr. DISRAELI asked what course the government in. tended to take with the public business un Friday next. Lord J. RUSSELL said he intended to take the income and property tax first, and after that the Ecclesiastical Titles Dill. The house adjourned at a quarter past 12 o'clock. ARY COMMITTEES. HARWICH ELECTlON.—Yesterday, at 11 o'clock, this committee re-assembled, Mr. K. Seymcr in the chair, and proceeded to a scrutiny of certain alleged had votes upon the poll, which, if disallowed, it was contended would establish, by giving a majority over the votes polled for Mr. Prinsep, the right of Mr. Crawford to sit fur the bo : rough. Mr. James, Q.C., explained, at considerable length, the parliamentary principles which, under 6 Vic, e. 18, governed scrutinies of this kind. Amongst a multitude of legal disabilities to vote, declared by the statute, were non continuanos of residence; employment in the Customs, Excise, and other government departments—provisions that would be found to apply to votes sought to be struck off, about six of which, out of • list of 60, would be necessary to entitle Mr. Crawford to take his seat. Only three cases, which underwent a protracted argument, had been taken when the house rose at four o'clock, one alone being disallowed or *track off on the ground of non-residence of the voter. Tho vote of William Hood, a " glut " or extra tidcwaiter, employed by the customs when there was a glut of vessels in the harbour, was declared by the committee lb be • good vote, Mr. Serjeant Kinglake contending that the objection to the vote thould have been taken at the time of refistration, and that it had been decided in the case of thei Kinsale election that an occasional tidewaiter was not to be disqualified from vain. The committee then adjourned to this day at 11 Sr. ANDENIE'II RAILWAY.—The Admiralty have just re ported their went to this bill for a lino from St. Andrew's to the Edinburgh and Perth railway. Taw VALE RAILWAY.—Yeatle ' y Mr. Bernal'e com mittee passed the preamble of this ill for power to London and South Western to subscribe for reduction and arrange ment of capital and change of same to that of " North Devon Railway and Dock. :; .. r