The Express. — London, England, 1848-07-04 00:00:00

THE E X PRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, JULY 4, 1848, Sir J. PAKINOTON rose to move that instead of the sum of 13s. proposed to be inserted, the sum of 10s. be sub stitut. din its place. lie had some reason to complain of having been charged by the noble lord with a desire to em barrass the government and delay the resolutions. The noble lord wars the cause of both. The. first, by his vacilla tion, in having. on the 29th May, stated that he would not alter the sugar laws; and then, on the 16th June, coming down with the resolutions n w before the house. The se cond by not havins taken measures at an earlier perio f d. He had no reason to regret the course he had taken, or the small usajotity by which the former question hail been car- Tied showed that, but for the state of parties, the government would not have bad a majority. Tire differential duty pro posed by the government was wholly inedequstu to effect the object they professed to have in view. Nothing but 1.01. would insure the prosperity of the \Vest Indies, and he founded this opinion on the statement which he made the other night as to the compara tive cost of production is free and slave.lalsour colonies. The right hon. hart. the member fur Ripon had stated that he proved too much in making the statement as to compara tive cost, bat iu istimaiing it at lie. 9il. per cwt. cheaper in the slave colonies than ii the free-labour colonies he hail, he believed, nun the correct data, and he must remind the right hon. baronet that he never said the present difference ICU to remain fixed; it might and would be diminished by the reductions now help g effected in the West Indies in the rates of labour and in the general coat of cultivation. He also denied that the interest of the consumer forbad the imposition of a lOs. duty ; but he did admit that the question was one of revenue. Before he entered upon that point he would admit the truth of the observed n made by the right hon. baronet the member for Tamworth, that it would he impossible to re turn again ea the distinctions th .t existed before the acts of 1945 and ISIS between slave end free-labour sugars. There were, he regretted to say, insurmountable obstacles; but they offered no obstacle to the imposition of a 10s. duty. It was not, as had been stated, to impose an additional 44. on the price of sugar, but to reduce the duty by that amount that he had brought forward his proposition. To revert to the question of revenue, whilst he admitted that such did exist, he must declare he was not deterred by it, considering that the interests of the British West India colonies were at issue. He was of opinion that his .ight hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchtquer had wry mush risen...mod tho lees to the revenue wnicti a 10s. duty would necessitate. The right boo. baronet had estimated the loss rt 960,0001. wag prepared to show it would be nothing like that sum; aAI he also must say he differed on two important points from his right hon. friend's former statements as to the quantity of sugar consumed in the kingdom, and as to the amount of sugar which might be expected in the ensuing year from the British possessions in the East and West India. The amount of sugar which would enter into consumption in the kingdom in the ensuing year, and pay duty, was estimate d b y hie ri g ht hon. friend at 310,000 tore; he (Sir J. Pakington) considered that the least estimate of the amount which would be consumed, foreign and British together, would be 325,000 tons; and the quantity of British sugar which would be imported in the next year, so far from being 240.000 tone, as estimated, would not exceed at the most 225,000, as the Mauritius would send very little. Taking, therefore, the whole con sumption at 32.5,000, and the British produce at 225,000, there would remain 100,000 tons of foreign sugar to he entered in order to complete the required quantity. The 225,000 tons of British sugar at 101., would produce 2,250,0001. Time 100,000 tons of colonial sugar at 20.. a cwt., would produce 2,0e0,000 1 ., making a total of 4,250,0001. revenue for the ensuing year. The sugar duties produced 3,953,2051. in 1846 In the year 1847 they amounted to 4282,4691. Taking them at 4,250,000/. for the next , year, the loss, as compared with 1847, would only be 182.0001, instead of 960,0001., and as com pared with 1846 there would be again of 296,7951. lie had thus his cue as f as the revenue was concerned. The next point was how ar long he proposed that the diffe rential duty was to last, and also whether it should ind sud denly or not. He had no decided opinion as to the period which the 10s. duty ought to continue; and as to the other question, he should refuse to answer it. He was net sur prised at the smiles of hon. members opposite, considering the number of changes that had been made in the sugar duties within the last four years. With respect, however, to the duration of the 101. duty, he wee prepared to fix that at three years, as he considered it politic to fix a specific time. Having thus stated his views, ann the grounds upon which they rested, he begged to thank the committee for the atten tion with which they had listened to him, and to wive, as an amendment, that a 10s. duty on British sugar be imposed, instead of 135., as proposed by the government. The CHAIRMAN having put tee question, Mr. H. DRUMMOND said that the question of free trade in sugar was not he felt satisfied settled by the division of the other evening, nor would it be settled by the time they arrived as the year 18.54. It had been treated differently by all parties in that house; by some as a free trade question, by others as a slavery question, and by a great number se a question of protection. No one had, however, given a clue whereby its difficulties could be unravelled. In his opinion it was a question of free trade, and all the light that had as yet been thrown upon it on his sde of the house was by making the not very novel or ingenious proposal of taxing one part of the corunanuity for the benefit of another smaller portion, under the name of protection. Bir unless all the Queen's subjects were alike protected, it was unjust to protect any portion of them. The fact was, notwithstanding all their maxims of political economy the house was afraid of free trade- If they were not, why was Scotch whisky taxed more than English ? Why was Catalan timber taxed and British limier let go free? The whole system of taxation required revision. With respect to the slavery port of the subject, he had long been associated with Mr. Zachary I Macaulay, but he never went with that excellent person as to the means by which slavery was to he abolished. He rather took the views expressed by Mr. Brougham, when he proposed to make it piracy to have slaves on hoard a ship, and thought that hanging a few captains at the yard-arm world produce soon a salutary effect. Why did not England station her men-of-war at Cuba, if her government was anxious to stop the slave trade ? The West Indian planters had not been fairly treated. Their slaves bad been arbitrarily valued at 20,000,0001., and they had been premised the apprenticeship system and protection, of both which they had been deprived. The legislature had broken all its bargains with the West India planters. He distrusted alike the statements made by the Manchester gentlemen and the Colonial-office authorities respecting the West Indies. What those colonies had a right to demand was the free admission of their sugars and all other produce into the kingdom, and free permission to import labourers wherever they could. Las than that they ought not to be satisfied with, and it was necessary in order to carry out the principles of free trade and free labour so much insisted on by hon. member. opposite. Sir J. PAKINOTON here observed that if his amend ment was adopted by the committee he should next propose as a consequence that the duty on foreign sugars be con tinued at 20s. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had so un derstood the hon. helmet. V. SMITH denied the justice of the statement .0 boo. member for East Surrey as to the inade quate compensation granted for the slaves in the West Indies. He would remind hon. members who were - as clamorous about the claims of the West Indians, ' the small amount of compensation, that the ori -1 suggestion with that view was a loan of 15,000.00 01 . that tie change from that toe grant of 20,000,0001. was Cirtadvance upon record. He denied that there ever y °attract entered into mother country Were= to giving the colonies a m onopoly of the home market, or guaranteeing to them a supply of free labour. As `o the apprenticeship, it was a matter of history that the con e, of the planters in some of the islands to their appren kjeg caused the loaded :Monstrance' in England, and that the system was at last abolished by the colonial legislas tures. Then as to the supply of free lalseur, he domed that there bad been any contract on that point-The whole tone (Atha debate on emancipation went to prove that free labeur could compete with slave ha lie was sorry to admit that in his opinion that doctrine was nothing more tbae a philan thropic fallacy. He believed that free labour could not com pete with slave—(hear, hear), --but nevertheless that we e ; the understanding nd belief during the debates on em.enci pation. The re was only one: reteure, thet er starvation, Which could get oat of free Labourers in the West Indies as much work as in foreign colonis the lash obtained from slaves. (Hear, hear.) The boa. e member who had moved the amendment had on the present occasion thrown aside the veil under which he had on a former evening sought to obtain • few striae votes, but that was only another instance of what he (Mr. S t.ith) had always deemed to be the great misfortune of the West Indies, namely—that questions effecting their interests were always in that honse made the subject of party struggle. (Hear, hear.) It had been so in 1810, when the hon. baronet himself and the hon. member for Inverness voted against the introduc tion of relies. (Hear, hear.) The hon. baronet had re commended his amendment by saying that it would relieve the producer without inflicting any loos on the consumer, but he had not proved tha t it could be carried nut without inflicting a serious lost on the revenue. It was admitted that there would he risk of loss to the amount of 182,0001 , and he (Mr. Smith) was not prepared to risk that amount in the present state of the national finances. (Hear, hear.) If the West Indians had a claim for compensation on account of reduction of price, why might not the growers of corn in this country put forward a similar claim? The great question wes, wha was ultimately to become of those colonies ? His belie t i was, that those which survived the present distress would ultimately flourish, but that those which could not I would grow out of cultivation altogether. When WAS the protection now asked fan to end ? The hon. baronet had come down from six years (the recommendation of the com mittee) to three; but it made little &if vence, as at the end of either period the coloidats would infallibly come to that house for • renewal. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. mem ber for Coventry recommended a closer attention to colonial caper se, as one remedy for West Indien distress. He eon curved in most of the right hon. member's suggestions, but certainly not in that portion which went to give to the colonists the election of their governors. That would he vii twiny yielding up sovereignty ; and certainly, it it were done, he saw no reason why we should any longer send out troops to maintain;the governor's authority. As to the discriminating duty now proposed, he did not see how it could be carried out without loss both to the revenue and consumer. Besides, it was net what the planters asked for theme , Ives. lie held in his band a petition from the agents of Bubadoes, Autigus, Montserret, St. Kitt's, and the Virgin Islands, the prayer of which was that there should be a protection of 10s. per cat., as against foreign free labour sugar, and a practical exclusion against foreign slave grown sugar, or else 15s. per cwt. against all foreign sugar without distinction. (Hear, he v.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer had thrown fresh blood into the discussion, hy his announcement of a former evening . the lie congao congratu latedu- the right hon. gentleman on state of affairs which he understood had greatly improved confidence in the City, and he conceived that the West India question should be settled without any rennin to such considerations. As he had said before, he did not think that the right bon. baronet's amendment ceu:al be eel out w ithout toes to th revenue, and therefore he should decidedly give his vote against it. Mr. B. COCHRANE was of opinion that this c ninny was hound in good faith and common honesty to grant to the West Indies the relief asked for by his lion. friend the member for Droitwich. Ile would remind the heave that up to 1807 this house had not only sanctioned, but positively enacted, the slave trade, and that in the reign of Charles I I. the monopoly of that trade was granted to the Queen Dow ager and the Duke of York. Their recent legislation hail injured the West Indies, while it had encouraged slavery, and ultimately it would not cheapen sugar, because when our colonies were thrown completely out of cultivation, the slave-holders having a monopoly could dictate their own price. From a wish to proti act our colonial empire, an lto preserve the national faith, he should certainly give his vote for the amendment of his hon. friend. Mr. SPOONER said he had voted for the government proposition of 1846 because he bad thought that when the protection on corn was remosed, the einsumers in this coun try should be relieved front the protection on sugar. Ile el ould, however, on the j resent occasion, vote for his hon. friend's amendment, because he believed that the govern ment proposition had been universall condemn. d by the House of Commons. (Hear, hear) Per y ty alone had given them their miserable majority, but never on a majority so composed had any previous government pressed an i m portant measure upon parliament. (Hear, hear.) lie must confess azure L of t he should I never have voted for the measure of t 1846 had he thought that it would give so great a stimulus to the slave trade. They were then told as an inducement to pees the bill that antislave treaties were in active progress with Bra zil, w herees the fact was, that at this moment we were fur ther from accord with Brazil on the subject that. ever. looked u pon ) Any eneourag. ment of the slave-trade he ooked upon as a national sin, and this reason strongly urged him to vote for the amendment. With respect to the loan, he should deal with it as a grant, because he knew it would never be paid, and he protested against any such grant to enable West Indians to import labour while thousands of labourers were out of employment in this couutry. Let the government look to the state of Stafferdshire, where one eetablishment had during the previous week stopped work, thus throwing upwards of 2,000 hands out of employment. He need, would those na,n hear with satisfaction that they were to be taxed to enable government to grant 500,0001. to the Wed Indians in aid of the importation of labour ? (Hear, hear.) But this was only the beginning. At a meeting of the iron muter*, preparatory to the quarterly me2ting, it was deter mined to reduce the price to 61. 10s. per ton, it being well known that it could not be manufactured at less than 81. The consequence of this must be that all the workmen would the dismissed unless they submitted to an enormous reduction of wages. la fact, never during the whole of his experience were the great staples of the country is such a state of de pression as at the present moment. Having the opinion he had stated of the government proposition, and at the same time wishing to discourage slavery and the slave trade, he felt bound to support the saneudinent of his hon. friend the member for Droitwich. Mr. GODSON contended that while the West India colo nies had strictly adhered to their part of the contract entered into at the period of emancipation, this country had broken faith with them, first in opening the British market to slave grown produce ; secondly, in putting an end to the state of apprenticeship before the expiration of the time stipulated ; and thirdly, in neglecting to provide means for the intro duction of free labour into the colonies. It was compl laud that the government plan involved an advance of 500,0001. for the purpose of facilitating the immigratioe of labourers ; but those who made that complaint should remember that the 20,000,0001. of which they bad beard so much had never been paid in lull. The amount which had been paid was only 18,619,4021., and it was rather too much, with a balaniT of 1,330,5981. due to the colonies, to object to a temporary advance of 500,0001. to assist in carrying out that which was one of the conditions undertaken by this country when it paned toe Emancipation Act. All that was asked by the proposition of his hon. friend was, that the house should come back to what ought to have been the arrangement of 1846. The noble lord had told the house that the difference of va'ue between foreign and colonial sugar was Gs. in fa vour of the former ; and the evidence before the committee showed that it could not be lees than 4s. 6d. If the noble lord's statement was correct, the difference of duty from July, 1547, to July, 1818—viz., 20s. and 141 , was just sal cleat to place the two articles on equal terms, and in point of fact, there had been free trade in near dun ing the last year —(hear, hear)—and the effect of the act, if continued, would be in Mel, vsh , n it reduced the duly of foreign sugar to 145., leaving that on colonial sugar at ;the same rate, to give a bounty to the foreign slave-grown as against the colo nial free-labour produce of not less than 4s. 6d. • cwt., taking the lower estimate, or 41. 10s. a ton. (Cheers.) The price current of Drake, Brothers, sad Co., of the Havannsh, for 1844, stated that there was no expectation of improve ment in the price of Cuba sugar unless the markets of England should be thrown open to it—and it this could be effected at 50s. per cwt. their produce would double in value. And in the price current of 1847 It was stated that that sugar had been kept up at its pre sent high rate, notwithstanding the abundant crop-, by the extensive shipments to the United Status and Great Britain. (Hear, hear.) Here then was the evidence of the Cuba houses themselves as to the advantage their slave strewn produce had over that of our free.labour colonies. (Hear, hear.) Again, as this country reduced the duty on the sugar of the Brazils or Cuba, those countries would in crease the tax en its export in the same proportion, and the result would be that the consumer here would be Peeing the taxes fur maintaining the government of foreign countries. lie believed sugar might be raised in the Brazils or Cuba at a coat of 10s. a cwt., while the cat in our West India colonies might be taken at 20s. If that was the case, a duty of 10i. on the one and 203. on the other, as pro posed by the amendment of his hon. friend, would place beth on equal terms. With regard to any loss to the reve nue, that was a matter very little cared for in 1846 ; and when it was said that the increased consumption had in • great part made up any loss that was anticipated, he must take leave to remind them that the amount accruing to the revenue for such increased consumption bad been paid out of the remaining capital, and not out of the profits, of the West India proprietors—(hear, hear) —who had been com pelled by the legislation of parliament to enter into a ruinous competition with the slave-owner. Government having found that they were mistaken in the course they took in 1846, now proposed to go Peek just far enough to admit the wrong, hut not fare nough to put themselves and parliament right. (Hear.) By keeping up the differential duty the revenue would be kept up, and with this advantage—that it would be paid by the foreigner, and he had very little doubt that, in 18.51, whoever was Chancellor of the Exchequer, would come down to the house and propose to stop the running down of the differential scale upon the best of all principles —thet of taxing the foreigner rather than our own people. Mr. M'CULLAOI I referred to the frequent complaints of distress put forward by the West India interest as arising from competition, and observed that the evidence before the late committee, if it proved anything, proved that our West India colonies, notwithstanding the advantages they had in machinery exported from England, were under gold, not by slave-labour states only, but by fo reign Iree-labour countries, and enn by our own Esst India possessions. They were undersold by Java, end in fact by every sugar growing country where there was free labour and improved cultivation. It WAS the fault of the proprietors themselves that the negroes were not in • condi tion for free industry when emancipation was granted as they alleged in :their memorial, inasmuch as they had neglected to attend to the repeated appeals of parliament to ameliorate the condition of their slaves; and with regard to the break ing off of the period of apprenticeship, what had occurred in Antigua proved that theta wallatlfhieff in that argument. In that island three were at once emancipated ; and after ail years' experiment, it was stated by the late Mr. Gurney, when ha visited the island M 1840, that the free negroes were working elesally and profitably, and that he was told by t:de planters that the money they received for emancipa iaon was a gratuity put into their pockets, for that their had was worth as much without slavery as with it. Sir E. Cole brook, the governor_fi hod confirmed that statement. advanced by the hon. member for Warwick were reasons against the proposition which he stated he intended .o vote for. lie told the house that the state of wages and employment in this coon try were such as not to admit of additional taxation. (Bear.) It so, why attempt to levy an additional tax on an article which had now become a necessary of life? (Bear, hear.) ' To say that Id. or 2d. a lb. in the price of sugar was a mat ter of no importance argued an ignorance and disregard of the wants and comforts of the labouring classes which he could not understand. Those who could command the luau. rice of life at will should bear in mind that it was a matter of great importance to the poor whether they were deprived of the means of ob'aining one of their few comforts, much less that which was now to them an article of necessity, or not. (Hear, hear.) The influence of cheap sugar in diminishing the use of ardent spirits, and promoting habits of temperance both in this country and Ireland, was a matter not to be over looked. As free labour was the labour of civilisation, and I the appliance of civilisation, it must drive out of the field slavery, which was the appliance of barbarism. (Bear.) Mr. SPOONER explained that he was no advocate for rai mg the price of sugar. it was the duty of parliament to wive sugar to the consul. er at the lowest price consistent with what was due to other great interests. But the pro , position before the committee did not go to increase the price of auger, but to lower the duly on colonial auger; and the whole argument of his hon. friend (Sir J. l'uking ton) went to show that the effect of his ptoposition would be to Inwir the price. Mr. MANGLES, as one who had voted for the hill of 1846, sod who was a sincere believer in the soundness of the doctrine of free.trade, wished to explain why he thought this question was an exception from that doctrine, and way, therefore, he felt compelled to support the claims of the West I mile colonies. lie hail no interest in or coot...lion with the %Vest Indies, and having a bat, in favour or the p dky if the noble lord, he le gretted washtat lie wee compelled to y-te against him. The question not tetvreen the consumer of this country and the labour, r in the %Vest Indies, as the noble lord had put it, but between the consumi r here and the em ployer of labour in the West Indies. (liter, hear.) It was his conviction that this country had been guilty of continued and systematic injustice to our Wet Indian colonies, and that we were (round now, at whatever expense to ourselves, to render them justice. The appeals to the interest of the cue sumer, therefore, were not fair in discussing this question. What was paid for emancipation, and it must be remem bered that slavery had been previously lore( d on the West Indies. was to be regarded not so much as compensation as a fine for a national sin. But the nation having forced eman cipetion on the colonies afterwards broke its engagement with them by suddenly and prematurely putting an end to the period of limrentict.hip. (Hear.) Then, as to immigra tion, this country was bound from tne moment slavery Was abolished to provide the colonies with a supply of free labour. (Hear.) No one could have supposed—he and =my others who had advocated emancipation had never expected —that free labour it confined to the emancipated negro would be cheaper or as cheap as slave labour ; when he end others contended for the superior cheapness of free over slave la bour, they meant free labour as open to the competition of the labour of the world. But instead of facilitating the at tainment of free labour by the West Indian colonic-, the Colonial-office had been systematic in their attempts to ev ale the obligation by which this country was bound. (Hear.) He believed the noble lord himself had admitted that the Asti-Slavery Association had had its vie fight in this reap( c• with the Colonial-oftice, and with the legislature ; and the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies, in Lis evidence before the committee, admitted the same when he said that the legislature had been too much in fluenced by consideratio - a which no huger prevailed. The noble lord would doubtless remember the stoppage put to the admission of free labour into the Mauritius, contempo raneously with the abolition of apprenticeship, causing as it did great ruin. The government prevented the plasters from going to Bombay, Madras, and Calcutta, for the labour they required; while no lees than 17,000 coolies walked a whole district up to Calcutta, in or& r to go to the:Mauritius. It was, besides, the greatest injustice to the people of India not to allow them to take their labour to •he market which was ready for them. In 1841, the %Vest Indian colonists pre , seated a requisition to the government for 9,100 coolies, and the government, such w..s their machinery and such their zeal, only supplitd the colonists with 1,02 e, being less than one-ninth of the number demanded. The following year they represented their great want of labour, and asked for 15,000, and the government sent them 7,0e5, being less than one-half. Now, these he only gave as spt eimens of the way in which the West Indies had been treated in regard Itoo the supply of labour. The hon. gentleman next quote ome evidence to show that the labourers returning from the Mauritius were greatly Improved in condition—that many of them returned with full purses, will that only those com plained who came back without money or character. As for the m irtality referred to by the hon. m-mber for the Tower Hazel es (Mr. 'fhompson), he had only to observe that it was not greater than that which took place in European regiments in India. lie thought these facts were sulfifient to show that the government had done what they ought riot, and le undone what it was their duty to do. They had thrown every ointscle in the way of free emigration, and the West Indies had iu consequence the strongest claims upon that house. He must add, that the Anti Slavery So. ciety were alto greatly to blame for the manner in which theyeaided the government in their struggle to prevent the West Indies from getting a proper supply of libour. 'Lett society had done all in its power to verify the statement that it WM impossible for free-labour to compete with slave labour. Now, on that point, he believed that British India, which had been referred to, was not a fair test. He be lieved that the slave trade could only be put down by free labour, and by enabling it to compete fairly with slave-la bour. But the Anti-Slavery Society had done their utmost to prevent that result, by throwing every obstacle in the way of obtaining free labour. lie thought that for a time it was necessary to give the West Indies the advantage proposed by the amendment of the hon. member for Droitwich ; but lie thought also, that with a view to ameliorate their condition, steps should be taken to improve their mode of cultivation, particularly by irriga tion, and that measures should be iminediat. ly adopted toe reducing the expenditure of administration, which was in some instances most monstrous. He bad no interest in the q uestion, and nothing sat a strong sense of public duty , inductd him to oppose . on the present occasion the noble lord, whom he almost invariably supported. Mr. ROBINSON had voted against the government on the last division, and was prepared to do so on t is. The noble lord had said that his object was twofold—to adhere to the bill of 1446, and to afford the people of this country a cheap supply of sugar; but the noble lord in his anxiety to effect the latter quite lost eight of the former object, having altogether abandoned the principle of the bill of 1816 by extending the period of protection for three years longer,— namely, to 1851. No one in that house was more convinced than wu he (Mr. Robinson) that it was the duty of parliament by every means in its power to cheapen the necessaries of life to the consumer, psalm. larly at the present moment, when with an increasing population there was a diminution is the demand for la- 1 hour. And be admitted that the immediate effect of the noble lord's measure wonld be to theapen sugar. But by depriving the West Indks of [protection, and exposing them hereafter to the competit ion such eventually would be the effect? Was he not more likely. by such a course, to transfer the trade altogether from our possessions to Cuba and Brazil, sad by giving them a monopoly to raise the price of sugar to a price quite as high, if not higher, than it was at present ? Now, it had hi en said that the proprietors of estates hat in the West Indies ought to be resident, and at if they were much of the evil would be remedied. In answer to that, and to show that resident proprietors had just as much reason to complain as the ab• sentees, let him quote the opinion of the Hon. Mr. Gordon, himself a resident planter, and cultivating his own estate in Jamaica. That hon. gentleman said, speaking of the seri cultural state of the parish of St. Andrew, that in 1812 it I contained twenty-two sugar estate s which yielded 3,000 I hogsheads of sugar at 60 0001., and with the rem, ste., pro dueed altogether 17.5,0001. per annum ; wh in 1847 there were only twelve estates, yielding only five hogeheads of sugar, the entire income amounting to 15,9001., showing a deficiency in the annual production of that single parish of 159,0001. The same gentleman went on to say that he himself was a ruined MIR —thatthe estate which some years ago gave him an income of 10.0001. did not now produce as many pence This was strong evidence to show that he residents were suffering just as much as the Owners of estates residing in this country. lie regretted to be I obliged to say that the noble lord at the head of the Colonial department seemed much disposed to act the part of a dictator, and assume the power of governing these colonies according to his own will, paying no attention to the state ' ments of the planters or governor. lie would not impute to Lord Grey, or the Under Secretary, that which was imputable to the office itself, which he ,regarded as the worst administered of the govern- I ment departments, owing in a great degree to the diver sity.of interests concerned, the number of our colonial pee seastons, and the utter impossibility of any one man, now them reat his talents, usefully and efficiently to superintend all. He saw no reason why there should not be a board constituted for the colonies similar to the Board of Ad miralty. But to return to the condition of the colonies, he found that within the last seven years there had been a diminution in West India exports alone of 1,069,0001. ge would not now enter into the question of free trade, falsely so called—free imports, he would rather call it, or unlimited encouragement to foreign manufactures. It was said that the continuance of protection would be a reUrograde movement as regarded free trade; but he contended that there could be no free trado without strict reciprocity, thereby producing cheap prices and cheap labour. The free trade psrty—die Manchester party, he would call them —invariably argued as though cheap prices would be an ad vantage ; but it was of much more importance to the la bourer to have constant employment and remunerative wages, than to be enabled to buy his sugar at a penny or twopence per pound cheaper. Admitting the disturbing influences of the destruction of the potato crop in 1846, i• bad harvest and the consequent mercantile depression, he was still convinced that the longer free trade mea sure* were persisted in, the greater would be the diffi culties in which the country would be involved. Calico, which a few years ago cost 12d. or 13d. a yard, was now pro duced at Mancliestsr for 2Sii. Supposing a further reduction to lid., bow was the manufacturer to be remunerated for his capital, and at the some time give good wages to his labourer? At the bidding of the economists, protection had been taken away from some Interests ; the consequence was mutual jealousy amongst all infants, sad a desire to deprive those reelection for t he sake of the loaded interest, the West d pro tection which still enjoyed it. Heald not advo cate p the system wader which this country existed,and _enabling it to yield the va st amount of taxation which i Indiums, to bear. or the shipowners ; but for the sake of supporting t had Already the effects of frog trade bad been manifest in the revenue; and while rejoicing to hear the statement which the hancellor of the Exchequer had made In his second budget an Friday night, he was still opposed to any further relaxation of protection. As to the West Indies, sound policy and the inter sts of the empire at large demanded that they should have a protection of 10s. fur fully six year., to enable them suctorfully to struggle with the intense competition of slave our colonists would eventually be able to compete with Cuba governinent assumed that l a a n b d o o u r T .. b e y p o v pro a yi tisl ig ht of increase t h e of the existing differen tial duties. This was nothing more than "letting them down easily," and their ulimate ruin would be inevitable. Be regarded these colonies as a main source of wealth and power to this country ; he therefore objected to do anything injurious to their interests, which might perhaps convert them, into open hostility, and lead to their becoming sp. pends tee of another nation. There was • general impression in the colonies that injuetice had been dune them by parliam .nt. How would the governent pro ceed if they resolved oa stopping the suppli m es In British Guiana they hart already refused to vote the sup plies fur more than three months, and if this example were acted on, the government might find themselyee in an ex tremely cLiiicult position. The hon. member for Northamp ton had said that there was no bargain wielt the e ot o , n ies a t the time the emancipation act was passed; but if no bargain, there had certainly been a contract, truth in 1834 and since, to the effect that the Went Indians should be protected against the slave islands, by having a preference for their produce in the home market. Tots principle had been recog nised over and over again, by the various ministers who had held office down to 1845, and ratified by large majorities of the house. Now it was said we could not exclude slave grown auger, on account of certain treaties with the United States and Venezuela, wnich admitted their produce on the terms of the most favoured nations. But why, on this account, throw the sugar-trade into e hands of the Cuteins and the Brazilians to wh th om we owed DO obligation? Ile admitted that those who sat on his side of the house differed as to the amount of protection riccemary ; but that difference was no greater than existed amongst the supporters of ministers. lie- rejoiced that the question had at h ligth been placed on such a footing that the house must either :Mina the proposition of government or the recom mendations of the West Indian committee; end he should hare no hesitation in giving Lis support to the latter. That committee had been fairly constituted; it consisted of men tully competent to deal with the question ; its inquiries had been most extensive and laborious ; and vet the noble lord at the head of the government treated its recommendations with absolute neglect. What would the West Indians think of such conduct as this? (Hear.) tie far one would not vote for an additional farthing towards the cost of sending hammers to the colonies, convinced that such a measure would only aggravate the listless of the colonists. Mr. A. OSWALD said the government had departed from the bill of 1846, and had thereby admitted the neces sity of increased protection. lie (Mr. Oswald) had voted for the bill of 1846 ; but that was owing to hie being without the information which had been supplied by the West Indian committee. (Rear.) Amongst the press, metropolitan and provincial, there was a universal chorus of dissent (rem the government plan. Was the house to sing another song ? 11 so, it was high time to take into consideration the proposal of the hon. member for Montrose. Seeing nothing before him but the plan of the government and the recommenda tion of the committee, he was prepared fully to support the latter, heedless of any taunt of inconsistency that might be directed against him. (Hear, hear.) He feared there was too much inconsistency in that boom. (Laughter.) He found from the Economist newspaper that the production of the \Vest Indict had decreased one-half between 1834 and 1841, owing to the inadequate supply of labour, and the previous unw Lolefeime stimulus of protection. Ito believed the former to be the true and the tole reason. For this injustice the house wan responsible, and must pay the price. lle represented a large constituency (Ayrshire), but did not believe that any oil woman there would like to have sugar for her tea or her " whiskytoddy " a penny a pound cheaper, it thereby an injustice was inflicted on others. (Hear, hear.) He would answer for the Name feeling existing in the mind of every man, women, and child, engaged in menufactures in the county he represented. What might be the case at Man chester he could not say. An eminent Scottish mercantile firm, whale founders had left an ample fortune, had recently succumlied to the pressure ; and in toe circular to their cre ditors they attributed their failure to the measures of 1816. (Heat, hear.) As to the increase in the slave trade, no doubt could be entertained by any one who looked at the returns which had been published. The honourable member for Manchester (Mr. Bright) bad vainly attempted to show that the slave tra de could not have increased in 1846, in cons. roiene , of the measures of 1846 ; but had he overlooked the possibility of intelligence being sent out to the Revennah that the measure wan likely to pass? The right hon. baronet (Sir it. Peel) had antici pated the time when slavery would be extinct • hut that happy period had been anticipated long ago, even by Curran, and he feared it was still very far distant. ( Hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER mid that the proposition of the h'.n. baronet the member for Droit veich was to reduce the duty on celoniol sugar from 14s. to 10*., instead of to 135., as proposed by the government, thus making a differential duty of 104. between colonial and foreign sugar. The hon. b ironet proposed this duty for au indefinite time, and in the course of his spit ch he antici pated the objections that would probably be urged against his proposition on the ground of its being detrimental to the consumer and revenue. On both these grounds he objected to the hon. baronet's proposal. He admitted that the government ought to attend to the interest of the West India body ; but the interest of the great body of consumers in this country was not to be neglected or left out of consideration. (Rear , hear.) He certainly wee not prepared to support a System of protec ties which would permanently increase the c at of a neces sary article to the consumers of this country fur the exclusive benefit of the Wert India body. (Hear, hear 1 The hon. gentleman who spoke last said that there was no sactilice made by the Foyle of this country. That might be the opinion of the old ladies of Ayrshire, who cou'd pay for the sugar that sweetened their tea and whisky toddy ; but he I did not think it was the opinion of the bulk of the popu la ion there. if the hon. gentleman referred to a paper which had been laid on the table ef the house, he would find that the people of this country paid in the year 1811 am less than 3,800,0001. more for their sugar than they would have done if there had been no protection. In 1842 they paid 3,600,0001. more ; and ir. 1843 they paid 3,400,0001. Too, with toe 20,000,0001. which had been paid in consequence of tl e Act of Easimeipation, was a pretty substantial proof of the sympathy of the people of this coun try with the West Indian body. lie was not prepared to say that they ought not to be put Cur a time in a position to enable them to compete with slave-growing countries ; but the country and the house had decided that protection as • permanent system should cease. As he was not prepared to ask for that protection which he once enjoyed as a landlord, so he was not prepared to allow a system of permanent pro ' Wien for the West Indians. e hon. enteman opposite had commented on members of th e govern g me l nt for remark ing on the extravagant system of management adopted by the Weed India planters. They had said nothing but what had been given in evidence by those planters themselves. He should rather think that was a source of hope, because it held out the prospect, under a more economical system, of being able to compete with slave-growing countries ; and he was glad to find that the hon. member fur Goateed was of opinion that before long free-labsur sugar would be the cheapest in the world. His main objection to the lion oureble baronet's proposal was on the score of the re venue. Speaking on this subji et be begged to assure the right hon. gentleman who presided over tire miscellaneous estimates committee, who seemed to think that he had cast a slur upon the committee, that he never felt it would be fair on the part of the government to throw upon them the re sponsibility of making reductions, and that they ought to re lieve the government from the responsibility of doing what they could in that respect. The hon. baronet seemed to think that he misrepresented the probable toes to the re venue is the first instance. What he said was, that the pro bable loss at first, if the proposal of the committee were adopted, would he 960,0001. ; and that the tint lees by the proposal of the government would he only 240,0001., and that it would be much easier to make up the one than the other. Tois lose could only be made up from increased con sumption, and the proportion in which foreign and colonial sugar entered into that consumption. The hon. baronet, who followed the estimates of the committee, estimated the con sumption of the country next year at 325,000 tons. He con. eideted that estimate an excess—he had no hopes that the consumption would reach that quantity. It would give an increase of consumption of 35,000 tons in one year. If the hon. baronet referred to the increase of former yeah he would find nothing to justify that calculation, with the ex ception of the year 1845, when there was an increase of 38,000 tons. But the hon. gentlemen must recollect that that was a year in which the sugar duties were largely reduced, in which free labour sugar was admitted, and that it was a year of considerable prosperity. There was every porwible circumstance that could tend to promote consumption in that year ; but they . had no reason to expect the same circumstances would e x is t next year. In other an the increase was 17, 000 tons , 12 , 000, 11 , 000, 23,000, 17,000, 29,000. The average increase was about 20,000 tons, and was the highest amount of consumption which they could expect. He thought the hon. gentleman was mistaken with regard to the proportion in which foreign and colonial sugars would enter into consumption. The hon. gentleman estimated the probable im..rt from the West India colonies next year at 2000 I l tons; and the report of the committee stated that the stock of colonial suear in hand was from 60,000 tone to 65,000 tons, giving a total amount of 265,000 tons of colonial ma gar. Now, it must be remembered that the holders of sugar w ould have every possible inducement to enter the utmost possible amount of sugar in the next year—that is, before July 5, 1849; and as he saw no reason why they would not enter from 240,000 to 250,000 tons of colonial sugar in the c ourse of the next year, leaving a stock of about 25,000 tons In hand, it was impossible to expect that anything like the calculation of the hon. gentleman would be received. He had calculated that from 300,000 to 310,000 tons would pro , bly be entered for home consumption, and he estimated the probable loss to the revenue at 45,0001. There might be a gain of 40,0001, but he would be well satisfied if the re venue from sugar was no lower next year than it was last year. He might, in fairnese to the Wes: Indict, reduce sugar ls. per cwt., but to do more would in the present state of the finances of the country be obviously unjust. Upon the whole, he thought he had taken a fair and reasonable course, and he therefore must resist the boo. gentleman's proposal. Mr. T. M. GIBSON, as a member of the committee ap pointed to inquire into the alleged distress in the colonise, was anxious to make a few observatioae. He would first of all express his regret that bee Majesty's government bad dennso biz. of tke 1 Crew so els and ti ginal I f and n th bad withthe to : duet 4 lips I SLIGO ELECTION. Mr. 0. GORE moved that the petition of John Delany, which was presented on the 18th of May list, complaining of certain proceedings for effecting& compromise in the cue of the Sligo election petition, be referred to the committee of privileges. Sir G. GREY thought the in q uir y a very proper one. He had been informed that the particular question i nvo lved had not been gone into by the committee. Mr. V. SMITH, in stforene ,, to his formes swgzstion that the evidence oefore the Sligo committee need not be printed, thought that at least the printing of the evidence might be suspended, until the hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. O. Gore) who had said he believed there was something in it valuable for soother purpose should point out what portiou he wished to have printee'. Mr. 0. GORE had not as yet read the evidence. Mr. BANKES suggested that it might be sufficient to re fee the evidence to the committee of privileges. This suggestion having been adopted and acted upon, Mr. V. SMITH then moved that the order for printing the evidence be diacharged.—Ordered. PENINSULAR MEDALS. Col. DUN NE asked whether the survivors of the troops engaged in covering the operations of the row ate i s employed in the storming of St. Soh ,stian, were to participn the diatributiou 01 rnetla's lately ordered ? Mr. F. MAULE said that the survivors out of these actually in the trenches, engaged in the work of storming, would receive medals. SUGAR DUTIES. The house then went into committee on thes' enitdm- duties. which Alter enure conversation re,pecng an ammt Mr. Bagshairi• had given notice of, but which had not been printed in time to come regularly before the committee on this occasion, The CHAIRMAN put the resolution, that on sugar or mo lasses, the growth and produce of any British po.scssion which the importation of toreign sugar ii p ro hibited, Icing imported Iron, any soch possession, there shall be imposed be duties following, that is to say ihe fluff( s following, thistli2l.72_________ and • grunt and Wow and after sth after 3th after 3th Front July. 'l6, • July. '49, July, '5O, and after to to to sth July, 3July, '49, 3July, '36, sJuly, '5l, 11351. inclusive. nicht:ave. inclusive. d. s. a. i a. Candy, brown, or white' double retitled surar, , o r augur equal in quality to double re- IS 0 16 6 If 11n.41, for every cwt. ...• 6 Other rained augar, or sugar rendered by any prove" equal iu quality thereto, foe every ena.• 11 4 16 0 14 6 13 4 White clayen wear, or sugar rendered by any process NU in qu.eity to white eltyed, not be retitled, for every cw t . g .............. 13 2 14 0 12 10 11 SI 21 ossos.ulo, or any other sugar not being equal: in quality to whitel 11 0 10 0 cloyed, for every cwt...{ 13 0 thought fit to depart from the law of 1846. He had thought that law a final question, and he hoped that hereafter they would never have to discuu the question, except as one of public revenue. But for every word that had been said about the revenue of the state ten had been spoken about the revenue of private individuals. West India distress wu not • question that ought to be discussed in • debate upon the sugar duties. The West Indian was not the only distressed interest iu this country. Had they had no otber bankruptcies—no other failures? (Loud ironical cheers.) Ile understood that cheer, but he was merely stating • fact. (Renewed cheers.) But did the commercial men of - England cone to that house, as the West Indian did, in form pouperis? The cotton spinners of Lancashire alone had suffered last year I tyres as great as the value of all the produce of the West Indies. But they hadlout of their capital, msintained their labourers, and they had not come down there seeking rebel and crying out every night for additional protection. (Hear, hear.) There was a great deal, too, about the testimony as to Weo Indian distress, that he frankly owned he entirely dis trusted. The parties examined by the committee were only interested parties, and they based all their calculations of their hues upon very ample estimates as to the cost of their production. "Remunerative prices!" Why, what had the landlords told them ab ,ut the prices.at which alone they could grow corn? (Hear, hear.) All that sort of evidence had been sufficiently disproved ; and surely they must allow an ample per centime upon the evidence of those who cam before a committee that never saw • sugar cane at all, and told them at what price alone they were able to produce a cwt. of sugar. (Cheers.) Why, in the blue book he held in his hand, ho found witnesses who gave evidence c u ic t r o y t c h o e n c ce us i l va ef b lerlr-ic-e".Tlie:rl;ei:..2wrrwehmicehnfi';hdo liiCirthea; could grew sugar at 4s. a cwt. ; others who declared they could not produce it at certain periods under 161. • cwt. Now, he owned to a preference for official evidence,and he was rather pleased to have it in his power to quote Lord Harris. Lord Hurts said that in " the best managed estates" (ironical cheers)—well, they were not there to protect bad manage ment—(much cheering) "on the best managed estates, (said Lord Harris) planters cou:d produce sugar at 10s. a cwt." (Hear, hear.) Well, that was just the amouit of protection they proposed to give to the West Indians. The suggestion from the other aide, therefore, was nothing leas than to give the planters their sugar fur nothing. What they proposed was to let him have his suear as if he had utoltri it, or ae if it was given him. Why, surely it was monstrous under such circumstances to ask for protection for the West Indians out of the hard earnings o the industrious classes in England. (Cheers.) A right hon. gentlemen opposite, thought that the West Indies tied n just claim, but he doubted how we were to pay it. Now he (Mr. Gibson) took just the converse position. He denied the claim, but, if he admitted it, he should be prepared to say that it ought at all hazards and sacrifices to be paid. (Hear, hear.) But he denied the claim. The West India proprietors had had 20,000,0001. from us for their slaves. That sum represented the capital of 800,0001. per annum. For the lest nine years the Went ludics had exported about 21 million tons of sugar yearly. The interest, therefore, amounted to a bounty of about (M. 441. a cwt. on every cwt. of sugar exported since the paseieg of the Emancipation Act. (Cheers.) It he deducted this bounty from the expense, it would be, according to Lord Harris, no les: than h elf the cost of production. Take the cue of Jamaica. Jamaica, on en average of the last nine years, had exported 731,039 ewes. iof sugar a year. The proprietors of that island had received 6,109,0001. in the shape of compensa ion. Why, the iroereet ' on that sum amounted to • bounty of no less than 73. on every cwt. of sugar exported from the colony. The house had nothing to do with mortgages or marriage settlements. In 1830, during the period of slavery, it was stated that the cost of production of a cwt. of sugar in our West India colonies was 16s. aa., less by 51. 441. than was stated by many competent witnesses to be the coat of production now. As to the money compensation now proposed, how was it to tie applied to the case of persons who hal mostly purchased estates is the West Indies at nominal prices? - eVere these parties to set up a claim to compensation in respect of these estates, as though they had been proprietors in them at a time when great dividends were realised from this source? (Hear) It was raid that free labour could not compete with slave labour; the production of indigo &Horded a proof to the contrary, for it was well known that free-labour indigo had entirely driven slave-labour indigo out of the market. (Hear, hear.) He denied that the slave trade nad increased. The speech of hie hon. colleague had thoroughly disproved the allegation that such was the case. He protested against the proposition that our foreign trade was to be proscribed, or even crippled, to suit the purposes of our eolonial agriculture. It was out of the question to suppose that by any legislation I they could do that for the colony's which the colonists would not do for teemselves. As to the slave trade, public opinion would in the end put it down throughout the world, as public opinion had put it down in the British dominions. Meanwhile our great principle should be to do our best in attending to our own real busffiess. Mr. T. BARING said that everything that occurred showed him the danger of sudden and sweeping changes. He coirended hat the case of the British West Indian cell). Dies pre ented an entire exception to the rules even of the ' most rigid free trailer, for our West India colonies were suffering, not so much from the ordinary nature of things as from the difficulties which had been thrown in their way by imperial legislation. The right hon. gentleman over the way repudiated the proceedings of the committee, of which he himself had been a member in constant attendance, and said that no reliance was to be placed upon their reported evi dence or their stated views. Yet the right hon. gentleman's friend (the hon. member fir Westbury) had moved a dis tinct resolution that ;he West Indian colonies were in a Mate of great distress, requiring a decide I remedy lie protested against the mode in which hon. gentlemen opposite seemed to treat the West Indian colonies and their into rests, as sub ject altogeteer to the varying circumstances of party contest. The proposition of the government was to give a protection of 7s. to British sugar, but between the value of British sugars anal foreign there was a difference of 2s. 4d. a cwt., which would reduce the net protection to 4s. Bd. But, inde pendently of ail these calculations, the question was, would the propositions of the government afford a real and substan tial relief to the plant, rs Would the measure restore con fidence in the colonies ? So far from it, there was hardly • man there who thought they could struggle on under it. Even the les. duty would hardly effect any considerable relief, although it certainly would enable the planters to carry on cultivation to a greater extent than under the government propositions. But the protection offered of 45. 81. was only to endure fur one year. Nothing was more dis treseing than a continued state of depression, and one which annually would become worse ; he felt that this would be the ease under the pr posed rate of duties, and in voting for the amendment of the hon. member for Droitwich he was only actuated by the sincere belief that the govern ment proposition was not soequate to the emergency. The colonists would not look at it as a manifesta tion of a real desire to help them. They would say that the government had called to their re lief a gentleman skilful in dealing with figures, and by his essisteure, they attempted to throw dust in their es es. (Hear, hear.) The government looked at the colo nies not as they really were, but as the Colonial-office wished them to be. (Hear, hear.) Was it satisfactory that the measure should be regarded by the colonists as a party proceeding ? Would it be looked at by them as having pro ceeded from the fair convictions of the house, when it was only passed by • majority of fifteen votes? And was it teought that the sugar consumer would be benefited by the change ? Would he not rather be injured ? Was not the sugar cultivation falling off in the West Indies, and how much easier was it not to destroy than to testers ? What was wanted was not temporary but permanent cheap ness of sugar. As the right hon. member for Coventry had said, the question was not one of a penny a pound cheaper sugar for the consumer, but whether the sugar colonies were to be destroyed: anti it would become • question hereafter, whether the colonists would not come to parliament and claim, not protection, for that was no longer an English word, but the means of maintaining order and their social institutions. For all the reasons he had etated, he should give his humble support to the amendment. Lord J. RUSSELL said that having already spoken on the former evening's debates, he should trouble the com mittee only for • very few minutes ; but he could not let the hon. geetlemau's observations pass without some remarks. He must say he was glad to have a proposition set before the committee in opposition to that of the government. The hon. member (?dr. T. Baring) bad suggested views and attri buted motives to the government which were discreditable I to them, and he had moreover stated that they had not the interests of the colonists in view. The hon. member's in fluence and his abilities were such as to induce the colonists I to believe his statements. But if the hen. gentleman's state ments were true, the way to benefit the calonists would have been to have made a proposal which all would have agreed in, and not to endeavour to collect into one body all the discordant opinions, and muster them against the government propositions. It appeared to him that the course taken by the opposite party ought to have teen quite different to that pursued. They ought first to have discerned the questien whether the house would go into committee at all, and then the amendment of the hon. member for Manchester would have been discussed and dia. posed of. Then they would have taken into consideration the government propositions, and the hon. baronet opposite would have made his present amendment. But they began by first discussing the honourable baronet's amendments, and afterwards that of the hon. member for Manchester ; and now they came to the consideration of the second amendment of the hon. baronet the member for Droitwich, for substituting a 10r. duty instead of the one proposed by the government. Now, let him state what he eesaidered to be the disadvantages of that proposal. It could not be sound, in the first place, that it would risk no lets en amount of revenue than 960,0001., for the hon. baronet's calculations on this head were all conjectural ; and let him orb whether it was wise, so soon after a serious deficiency had been made up, to risk nearly • million of revenue in this way? The hon. baronet's proposal was to impose a 103. duty tar the period of six years. (No.) What, then, was the bon. baronet's proposal ? Sir. J. PAKINOTON said his proposal was to impose a 10s. duty for three years, but that he was Lot disposed to enter into any speculations as to the puled to which that duty ought to be ultimately extended. Lord J. RUSSELL.—But that would leave the whole question of the sugar duties in a most unsatisfactory state, for nothing is to be more deprecated than uncertainty in the operation of duties. (Hear, bear.) The proprietors might then say we will work during the three years of protection and then give up cultivation and abandon our estates. What would be the state of the colonies? It might be very beneficial for those who have invested their property in the West Indies, but not at all encouraging to those who wish sums' to the introduction of (tee labour. There would be two serious risks attending the adoption of the hon. baronet's amendment. One is the risk of losing 960,0001. of annual revenue, and the other founded on the state of uncertainty in which the colo nies would be left at the end of three years, or the loss which ear years of protection would indict on the consumer. These appear to me to be sufficient reasons for rejecting the proposal of the hon. baronet. The hon. mernher e ar Huntingdon asks why has not the government proposed a middle course ? why refuse to do so merely for the silo of consistency? Why, if we wished to preserve a reputation for consistency our coune would have been to stand by the law of 1846. (Hear, hear.) That would have been our course, and we should net have been reproached se we hare been for abandoning that measure, and the pria. ciple it involves. What we have endeavoured to de was to adopt the very course which the hon. member for Hun tingdon recommends. We have eneleavoured to adopt a middle course, sensible of its inconvenicnce, not at the same time sensible that we should satisfy the West India interest, and knowing also that in deputing from the measure of 1546 we should incur great comp aints from those who were satisfied with that measure. Exposed to there disadvantage r, open to these objection., we have proposed a measure which we thought &cm .ntageous to all pasties; rat whatever faults or omissions it may exhibit, it is one which I submit is better comparatively than that which has learn proposed by the hon. baronet. (Cheers, and cries of "divide.") Mr DISRAELI said he hop. 4 that as he had not ham taken any part in the present d bate he should be allowed to occupy the attention of the house far a few moments, espe cially so he intended to confine himself strictly to the ques tion immediately before the house. (Hear.) He must say, with reference to the two positions of the noble lord —test 11 re garded revenue, and secondly as to the unsittseeeee, nature of the hon. member fir Droitwich's with respect to the first he did Pee the experic net they had had of the 7,: . ;„;,.. lord's calculations of revenue should —.e hie op i nion on that point a matter of very vital inner. Lance—(a laugh); aed as to the proposition of his hon. frig nd, he admitted that it was capered to the objection of being only of a temporary character. But what on the other hand, was the proposition of ministers? Was it not open to the same objection as was applied to the scheme of his hon. friend ? (Ilisr, hear.) His hon. frieno's scheme was a step in the right direction, and held out a great- r hope of stability aed certainty than that of the noble lord. He certaialy thought that the noble lord's proposition,aft roll the inquiry and eiseuesion which had taken place, was anything bat satisfactory. And when they had the right hoe. member for Tamworth, who had had, from peculiar circumstances, his attention directed to the affairs of our sugar colonies for many . year., telling them that the com mittee which had investigated the subject in 1818 had thrown a flood of light upon it, he thought that it did not become the house, or ray of its:members, to depreciate that irquiry or discussion. There was one point on which they were all agreed, except the hon. Under Secretary for the Colonies— namely, that our colonies in the West Indies were in aa un precedented suite 01 depression. Mr. HAWES.—I admitted that they were so. Mr. DISRAELL—Perhaps the Hon. Under Secretary had become convinced in the course of the discussion. (A laugh.) It was also agreed that the hon. baronet the member for Droitwich had advanced a proposition to the house which was in unison with the report of the committee, to the effect that the depression of our colones had arisen from their in. ability to compete wish slavedabour; and what the house was then called upon to do was, to give them such an amount of assistance as would enable them to compete with slave labour. (Hear, hear) The committee had decided by a majority that a protection of 10.. per cwt. should be given ; and that decision was founded oil a long, patient, and minute investigation. The right hon. member fur Manchester had said that they all knew how these com mittee inquiries were conducted, that certain leading qui teems were asked, with a view of getting such aeswers as would bear out the views of the questioner. Now he (Mr. Disraeli) did not think that at all a lair di seripti of the proceedings of the committee, the more especially us his right hon. friend had himself attended and cross e eamiaed all the witnesses, being moreover at the time a meinher of the government. Why, there was one witness who was so much in unison with the views of the Colonial office, that he was called Lord Grey's witness. (Laughter.) That gen. demon was examined for 3 hours and 25 minutes, in chief by a member of the government, and hie business beiorethe com mittee was to substantiate the principles, the acknowledged principles of the Colonial office, namely, that free labour could compete eueoersfully with slave labour, that the great source of West India misfortune was abeenteeism•, and that the only remedy for those misfortuni s would be the repeal of the navigation laws. Cheers.) He men tioned these facts to show that the inquiry of the committee bad not been merely a hole and corner investigation, but that the subject matter was investigated bores fide, and that every shade of opinion was properly represented. If, there fore, a body of evidence obtained under such cir cumstances had induced the committee to arrive at a conclu sion very different from that of the government, it was the legitimate consequence of such evidence ; and he begged it to be understood that the representatives of government on the committee had done their best to substantiate the viewso the Colonial office as be had before indicred. The gentleman whose examination in chief was given to prove that free labour could compete with slave labour, admitted on his cruss-u -sminrion that he had on his own estate produced free lab .ur sugar at an expense of 521. per ton. (Hear, hear.) The same gentleman was called on to pr..ve that absenteeism was a curse, and he ultimately proved that every resident proprietor was insolvent, and that all the sugar was produced by absentees. (Cheers and laughter.) He reerred to the evidence of Mr. Peckwood (as we understood), wbe was also to prove the third point of the Colonial office creed, namely, that the relief for colonial grievances was to be found in a repeal of the navigation laws ; but his evidence did not at all lead to that conclusion. Afterall these witnesses, it had been said that the sugar planting committee had acted like the navigation committee—(a laugh)—had heard only the evidence on one side, and then ' separated without agreeing to any report. (Hear, hear.) He deseed the truth of that assertion. The com mittee had patiently heard all the evidence worth listening to. and PO far from shirking reports, he believed that there never was a committee which bad produced a greater num ber. (Hear, hear.) Well, it was proved to the satisfaction of that committee that our colonies could not compete with the 'lave colonies; and it was also shown moss satisfactorily that the difference between them amounted to little less than 16s. the cwt. Cer tainly the hon. member for Westbury did, on a subsequent occasion, challenge the accuracy of the calculations; hut to hie (Mr. Disraeli's) appreh nsion, the hon. member did not ap pear to be so happy ut on sugar as he generally was on other subjects. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) lie c odd never for get the tremendous statistics with which on an early night in the session the hon. member bad come down, as re garded beet-root sugar. (Hear, hear.) They had not heard much of beet-root sugar during the pretest debate. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) It was not alleged now that this country might be supplied with the beetroot sugar of the continent. But it was said that it was unjust to prove that 16s. was the required amount of protection, and then to de.nand only 10s. It ' should be remembered, however, that all the calculations M the committee were made before any of the promised changes had been announced, and before the reduction now expected in the price of labour was known. If they had asked for 16s. they would have been subcrquently told " You forget that labour will be' 5 pet cent. cheaper. You forget the alteration of the rum duty, and the proposed immigra tion of labourers." The committee had anticipated all these objection's, and in proposing 10s. had given credit for the items. Well, then, the colonies being in the position which had been universally acknowledged, and the sum proposed being conceded to be a just and moderate wotectiun, he thought that the government were hound to concede it on their own admission. With regard to the general scope of the government measures, he admitted that they were of a remedial character, but wily to such an extent as to qualify the blunders of 1846 (Hear, hear.) If it were of advantage that free negroes should be conveyed to the colonies instead of to Sierra Leone, why had that not been done in 1816? lie said, then, that immigration was only a remedy fur previous blunders. (Hear, hear.) It was said then that great bene fits were to be derived from a new mode of clauffication as to clayed and muscovado sugar. Why had that not bees done in 1846 ? These were blunders again. (Hear, hear.) Again, half a million was to be given ; but it was only two months since it had been calculated that 170,0001. would be sufficient. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. —Daly for two colonies. (lieu, hear.) Mr. DISRAELI.—Oh, it was said that the others did not require it. But now it seemed it was necessary to grant 670,0001. Could that grant be looked upon as otherwise than a remedy for the blunders of 1846? (Hear, hear.) Something bad been said as to the engsgerothts which had been entered into with our colonies at the time of emancipation. He had never alleged that a contract is the vulgar sense had been entered into. He was willing to admit that no such contract existed. PIA hear.) But would any one assert that if the West Indians had not expected a continuance of their market they wou:d so quietly have accepted the terms they were offered? It was the principle of protection to the colonies that de stroyed the government in 1541—the principle which then went to the country, and which it was thought was then de cided. And were they now to tura round and tell the c do nnts that this was all a delusion—that the phraws and solemn pledges then made, and the words sugar and free trade, were merely cries as evanescent as the mottoes on their election banners ? (Hear, hear.) The right lien. gen tleman (Mr. Gibson) opposed the propoeitionbecause it went to support the interests of the colonies and was advent to the foreign trade. No one knew the importance of the trade of the Brazils—no one had urged on the house the ne cessity for a treaty of commerce with the Brazils—more the the right hon. gentleman. But he would not ask t he right hon. gentleman for a treaty of commerce with the Brazils. That was a new subject, and he intended ere long to bring it be fore the house—(bear, hear)—but be would ask, where wee the Brazilian trade which we were told over and over again was worth more than that of all our colonies together ? It had been said, if you assist the colonies, why not assist the manufacturers of Manchester and Bolton ? The reason was that they had had the monopoly of legislation, and though he believed they were in as disastrous a state as the colonies, it was because they had departed from the sound principles of commercial legislation themselves that they were in their pre sent position but in the case of the colonies they had, without any fault of their own, been made the victims et our legidation. But after the course which had been taken, after the adop tion of free trade principle, be was surprised to hear the right hon. gentleman, as one of the advocates of this prin ciple, now come forward and say that our own man ufactures ' had as much right to be protected as the colonies. (" Ob,' and " divide.') With regard to the Mauritius, as showing the effect of our legislation in that colony, he had a !tate went from the books of Messrs. Reid and Irving, whirls, in justice to those gentlemen, he would read. It appeared that in August, 1843, the balance of account aginnee their principal agent for their estates in the Mau ritius was 78,0001., after an immense, a lavish, but a justifiable expenditure in the improvement of their property. In the same month in 1845, ayear after the act of 1844, for admitting foreign free-lobo= sugar, the he' P"' Sir mitt e Th give to ri