The Express. — London, England, 1848-08-10 00:00:00

Mr. FREWEN hoped the bill would be allowed to paw is its present shape. On clause 6, Mr. MONSELL suggested that the number of conserva tors to be appointed should be increased from 7 to 15, Sir W. SOMERVILLE consented to alter the number to nine ; and the clause, as amended, was agreed to. On clause 6. Mr. ANSTEY moved an amendment for restricting the right of voting. Sir W. SOMERVILLE hoped the bon. gentleman being would a not press his amendment to a division, as, there not house, the bill would be lost. After a conversation the amend me nt was withdrawn , to be moved on the bringing up of the report. Sir D. NORREYS suggested that where there were joint occupiers of a ti.hery, the right of voting should be confined to one individual. This suggestion was adopted, and the clause, as amended, was agreed to. The remaining clauses were a greed to amid very consider able confusion, Mr. Asada and several other members sometimes talking acr oss the table all at once, whilst the Ch a irm a n was putting verbal amendments. The confusion amid which the claws were carried, m consequence of the anxiety of the house to adjourn, whilst Mr. ANS oIIyTEY wan reed anxi ous to go on, rendered the proceedinga wh incom prehen•ible. At length the bill was ordered to be repo tomorrow. The scl SPEAKER vacated the chair at half-past 3, to resume at a quarter put o'•fck. The house resumed at a quarter past 5. CUSTOMS REGULATIONS. Lord G. 13ENTINCli moved that the petition of the nn ders4tned shipowners, manufacturers, merchants, traders, and other inhabitants of the port of Shields (presented Bth Auust), b e printed with the votescomplained that New g castle had been favoured at the expense of the peti tioners' port. Mr. TIIORNELY said that the committee of petitions bad already st nt the petition in question to press, and it would be in the hands of members in a day or two. Mr. Reel and Mr. LABOUCIIEBE united in stating that no partiality had been shown to Newcastle. The motion was then withdrawn. COUNTY COURTS FEES. Sir G. GREY stated, in answer to Dr. BowRINO, that an order in council for paying the judges of the county courts a fixed salary. instead of their being paid by fee, had been prepared; and that an inquiry into the system of fees, with a view to their reduction, was now going on. BALLOT. Mr. H BERKELEY gave notice that on an early day next ses...lat he should move for leave to bring in a bill to cause the votes of electors of nimbus of that house to be taken by ballot. TRINIDAD AND JAMAICA. Mr. HAVES, in answer to Mr. BAILLIE, stated that • deepatch from Sir C. Grey, the governor of Jamaica, had been receivcd,stating that some excitement had been created amongst the black population there lest the island should be transferred to America, and their liberties thereby be affected. From Ltd Harris a despatch bad also been ye ceived, but nothing in it r..lated to any excitement amongst the inhabitants of 'Trinidad. He was not prepared to say whether these deepatches would be laid on the table of the house, as he had not spoken with the noble earl the Colonial Secretary on the subject. MEDITERRANEAN FLEET. Mr. URQUHART asked the noble lord (J. Russell) whether, in case of any collision between the subjects of the Kira of Naples in the Mediterranean, the British fleet stationed there had orders to act against one or the other party ? Lord J. RUSSELL declined to answer the question of the hon. member. IRELAND.—REPEAL. Mr. GROGAN ro.e to ask a question of the Secretary for Ireland relative to a correspondence between Mr. J. Loughran and Mr. Redington, and, otter stating some eke curastances re Wive to the refusal of the authorities in that country to suffer Mr. Loughran to act as a special constable, asked Sir W. Somerville whether he was prepared to lay the correspondence in question on the table of the house ? Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that he was not officially informed of the existence of the correspondence in question. and, Coarquently, could not promise to lay it on the table. Mr. GROGAN asked the noble lord a question relative to the proceedings in Ireland for effecting a repeal of the union. Lord J. RUSSELL said that any association for the pur pose of effecting a separation of the two countries would un doubtedly be illegal. But if such association was for the purpose of petitioning parliament to effect a repeal of the union, he was of opinion that, as the house had already received many such petitions, there was nothing illegal in it. INSURRECTION AT ST. CROIX. Mr. HAWES, in answer to Mr. Harr, stated that he bad received no information respecting the insurrection of ' the nee,rces at St. Croix. SEPARATE IMPRISONMENTS. Sir G. GREY, in answer to Lord NUGENT, styled that it I was not the intention of the government to introduce any bill for altering the present gaol system as regarded the separation of poisoners. Lord NUGEN I' then gave notice that, early next session, he should move for leave to bring in a hiil for modifying the I present system of imprisoning persons before trial in separate cells. CONVICT REWARDS. Sir G. GREY, in reply, to Mr. Howe, said that notwith standing some difficulties in creating a system of rewarOs for co evicts who had merited that treatment, Capt. alaconochie, the Governor of Norfolk Hand, was endeavouring to frame a series of regulations far that purpose. SUPPLY. The house then went into committee of supply. Tne stem of 122,8001. was voted for the disembodied militia (Ireland.) NAVY ESTIMATES. Mr. WARD, in rising to bring forward the navy estimates, said that the report of the committee was now in members' hands, and notwithstanding the slur cast upon it by the hon. and gallant admiral opposite, before he had even seen it, he (Mr. Ward) was prepared to assert that there never was a parliamentary paps r prepared with so much research, in dustry and moderation, as that drawn up by the noble lord (Seymour) the chairman of tl,at committee. In bringing the navy estimates before the committee he should not pursue the usual course, but he should take the report in his hand, and state wherein the Board of Admiralty agreed with its suggestions—wherein their lordships differed from them—and in what respect they considered their recommendations admitted of modification. The house had, already bound itself by a very large majority to pre-vide for the first and second votes in the estimates, and the sum of 400,0001. had been taken on account of the other votes. His right bon. friend had already informed the house that a reduction of 200,0001 had been effected in the votes originally props el. which reelection spread over the votes numb. re d 8, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, and. 19. The total re duction effected would in tact he 208,0001., and as the esti mates of 1848.9 exceeded those of last year by 214,0001., there consequently would be only an excess of 6.4401. in the present estimates over those of 1847-8 when the 208.000/. was deducted, and if the net estimates of this y. ar were compared with the gross estimates of last year, they would be found to be 43,000'. less in amount than those for 1847-8. With respe ct to the amount of our caval force, that was a question of which it was impossible to over-estimate the importance. The committee had reported that that was a questtou which could only be regulated by the wants, the exigency, the mate of foreign relations, and other circum - stances connected with the long-established awl extensive dominions of the British empire. (Hear, hear.) The Ad• miralty fully concurred in that opinion, ant', also as to the difficulty of reducing the force of foreign stations after it bad once been sent there. Consuls in distant ports were con smut'', calling for protection, and were mint reluctant to permit the withdrawal et a ship of war if once it bad been placed at their disposal. Three principal stations had heen under consido ration before the committoe. The Pacifis, the East India and Chinese, and the Cape. Now, on all these stations there had hem considerable diminution. On the East India and Chinese station the force, in 1845, woo vessels, but of these, 9 had sine , been orde red home. On the et. Pic station, the torte was, in 1845, 14 vessels • In 1847, 16 ; nod, in the present yell, they had been reduced to 12. Of that number, seven only were serving at the pre. sent moment. At the Cape, instead of 11 vessels in 1847, there had been only 10 at the beginning of 1848, while at present there were only 7, the Devastation and two :other yew Is being on their way home. He was, however, in- I structed to nay, on the part of the Admiralty, that there would be no objection to the adoption of the committee's re commendation of a general revision of the naval stations pre vino% to the proposal of the estimates next year. He came next to the votes 1 and 2, into both of which the committ had entered at considersble length. As to the first vote for wages of seamen the committee recommended that the true hsu nin estimating th se wages to.oulel he restored. He had stated in 1846 and 1847 why that basis had been changed, and here the average, which had been taken for four or five years, had been found insufficient in consequence of the general introduction of steam-vessels into the navy. He quite agreed with the committee that it would be desirable to restore the true basis of ascertaining the number of ships in commiltion on the Ist of January in each year, and their complement of men, and applying that to the vote of the coming year as a means of arriving at a sound conclusion. The committee complaintd that under the present system, when a vote was taken to pay a certain number of men, it frequently went to pay men who had been entered two or three years previ' Italy, and that consequently when ships came to be paid off, the expense was increased rather than diminished. The c .mmittee hence concluded that the mode of voting for men under number one, was the cause of great irregularity. The proposition was undeniable ; but the tact was, that when excess once had arisen it was ex tremely difficult to get it down. (Hear.) Ships once put into commission had perhaps to be recalled from the most distant parts of the world, and this, with other disturbing causes, rendered reduction always a matter of difficulty. He could give no better proof of this then by stating the manner in which the recess complained of by the committee had arisen. When the present board came into office in July, 1846, they found an excess of men in the ships in commission amounting to 3,2b9 ; that was the excess bequeathed to them by their predecessors. Since then, in ems, quence of the famine in Ireland, they had been obliged to commission &num ber of vessels for the Irish service independent of the ordinary service. The amount required for that service was 7,380 men' Making a total excess of more than 4,000 men in the year 1817. The re. ult of this was that the number of men obliged to be paid ofl in 1847.48 was unusually large, being 16,539 against 8,289, the average of precedirg years. In the first quarter of the present year ending April 5, they bad paid off 4,378 men against '2,871, the number for the corresponding quarter of the preceding year. There still remained in March, 1848, an excess of 4,146 men over the number voted in the previous July • but in August the fact as had been reduced to 2,477 ; and at the present moment the Southampton was being paid off, sad Ober ships were coming home, so that ultimately the excel, would be reduced to 488 men. Still this process errs alow and Un satisfactory. The dune proposed by the oornmiMe as remedy for the evil was perfectly legitimate—nullify, that ; the monthly exam should be registered and reported to per• fitment when applying for the estimates of the ensufagyeera lie thought it would be a salutary cheek fl the number of men actually borne on the books were regularly contrasted with the number for which estimates had been taken. (Hear, hear.) These observations applied to vote number ogee, and with respect to both votes, it was the intention of the Admiralty to comply with the suggestion of the coos mittee, by presenting a statement along with the estimates next year. There was one more subject connected with vote number one, to which It would be necessary to allude ; he meant the supplementary grant of 30,fki01. for good service reerseas. On this the committee had expressed no decide° opiolon,and he should only remind the house of the many ,liscussions which had occupied the house in reference to this matter, and how naval memers had contrasted oar treatment of the men with that pract is e d in foreign services, urging at the same time that some plan should be adopted calculated to prevent our gallant fellows fom leaving the service of their native country. Ail he could say was, that the Admiralty had endeavoured by moderate additions to the pay and by good service warrants, as in the army, to render the service attractive; and he earnestly ap pealed to the house not to refuse a grant calculated to have to important and beneficial an effect on the interests of the publi.: service. (Hear, hear.) He now came to vote No. 3, for the official expenses of the Admiralty, lie believed it had been proved to the satisfaction of the committee that the business of the Admiralty had increased in all its branches, and also that the es tablishment, as framed some years since, was wholly Made quite to the amount of business to be done. He quite agreed with the censure of the committee on the system of employ ing extra clerks without the sanction of the Treasury. lie also concurred in the opinion that extra pay led to demo ralisation ; but in reference to them and other points, he had the satisfaction of informing the house that the Ad• miralty were prepared, that the whole establishment, both at Whitehall and S merset.house, should be revised during the recess ; that they should be fixed under order in council, and that from that time forward neither extra clerks should he appointee, nor extra pay given without the written sanc tion of the Treasury, to be given on written application from t e department requiri n g assistance. Another point on which the committee had refrained from giving an opinion was en increase of salary to the second secretary (Captain Hamilton). lie (tile. Ward) could only say that it was on full examination of the subject, and from I a conviction that the salary of the second ' , screwy had originated in mistake, that the amount had been increased. It was felt that there should he a distinction between the second secretary and the first clerk, and there fore an addition of 5001. a year had been made to the salary of the former ; but it was only just to Captain Hamilton to say that he had refused to take the increased Wary until it had received the sanction of the House of Commons. He now came to vote No. 5, for the scientific branches of the ser vice. The committee observed that there was a double source of increase in this vote, one permanent and the other temporary. The temporary source of increase was the Arctic expedition ; and when the house recollected the cir cumstances of this rote, that those ga'lant men who had been sent out four years since to ascertain the limits of the world in the north had only been provisioned for four years, sad that their only hope of returning to their native country ley in their meeting with the expedition which had been prepared for their relief, he felt certain that they would unanimously be o of pinion that the Admiralty had only consulted the interests of humanity in doing everything that could be done yet to enable them to reach home in safety. They had not as heard the results of she recent expeditions, but he believed diet every precaution hod been taken, ao that at whatever point of the continent Sir John Franklin approached he would find relief. (Hear, hear.) That was the cause of the temporary addition, the permanent c insisted of the amount which had been expended in surveys. The Admiralty were prepared to take the "mount suggested by the committee, namely, 70,0001., it such should be the pleasure of the house. The y would also endeavour to contrive for the public increased facilities of selling the Admiralty charts. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the railway and harbour departments, he concurred with :he committee in thinking it oppressive t i the public, that questions in which the rights of the crown were concerned should go through the ordeal of these anomalous tribunals. lie was in communication with the Board of Trade on the subject, with a view to a consolidated tribunal, before which the rights of public department., as connected with railway" and other speculations, might be ascertained. On votes 5 and 6, which comprehended the wages and salaries paid in the dockyards. the committee had made some observations oa the re-establishment of the building-yard at Deptford. Now, the policy of that reestablishment might have been ques tioned at the time; tut on the impoleey of breaking it up ;hi re could be no question. The total numb( rof ships in our dockyards was not more then suil.cient, and it the plan which had been suggested of using the slips for preserving ships instead of launching them were adopted, there would not be a single slip too many. At page 47 of the report the committee mode some remarks respecting the duties of cu perintendents of the dockyards, in every s}llable of which he entirely concurred; and he could a-sure the house that it was the intention of the Admiralty . to act in the spirit of those re marks by bestowing those appointments on no man who should not be in the full possession of his !acuities both of body and mind. With respect to preforming public works by con tract in private yards, he feared that such a course would only lead to increased a eat nse and inconeenii nee. It was true that in the government establishments the stimulus of private enterprise was wanting; but the Admiralty had substituted every inducement to excellence in their power. They had given up the whole patronage, thus opening the field of promotion to all, and, as he believed, with the most satisfactory results. He believed that at the present moment the dockyards were rearing a class of artificer" who would do credit to those establishments and their country. With aspect to the number of ships in commission the committee observed that the number should be apportioned to the wants of the country, and drew a comparison hetwet n the number at I resent in commission and the cstabl ishments of for mer times, which he thought they had hardly carried out to its fair extent, because the decrease in some classes of ships had been extraordinary. The number of line of battle ships had diminished from 199 in 1814, to 47 at the present time, which, with three ships about to he launched, would mike 50, instead of 117 as in 1826, and 97 in 1835. This had been caused by the gradual proaress of decay in this elm of ship.. Many had been converted into hulks, lamer. ttos, and quaree tine ships. The committee seemed to concur in the sugges tion of Lord Auckland, that to keep up the proper .orce these ships should be completed each year, that 12 or 15 should be always on the stocks, and that the materials for 12 or 15 more should be prepared and kept under c _vet. The establishment of the dockyards had been fixed at 6,000 men in 1830; but that was before the general introduction of steam, and when everything was in his (Mr. Ward's) opinion cut down too low. The then establishment had no reference to the steam navy, and did not last a single year until it had to ha increased, and that increase had been going on consistently with trie watts of the country down to the present year. The committee re commended that these establishments should lie thoroughly revised, and that an inquiry should lie made aa to what building would be neeessai y during the nest five or six years. They also recommended that the hired artificers should be got rid of, and that for the future no extra men should be employed without the sanction of parliament and the Treasury. In those suggestions the Admiralty entirely acquiesced, and proposed to revise the list annually. Next yeu they expected to submit a revised scheme to parliament. hey also concurred in the suggi etion as to the n cessity of co-operation between the surveyors and the Memel tiepin ment. The idea of the board was, that those department should be considered identical. The committee also spoiled to the expense of applying steam as an auxiliary to old ships. The Blenheim was the only old guard-ship to which it had, as yet, been applied, and the result had been most satisfac tory. Capt. Chads, her commander, had given a most favour able report of her pert rmance at C-•ark, steaming out of her -1 boor against a heavy gale, and stated his opinion that such vessels would be invaluable additions to squadrons. With reference to so am factories, he hail to state that they had re duced the vote for Woolwich from 8.5,0001 to 65,0001., but in the case of Portsmouth, they adhered to the original vote. He did net agree with the committee as to the advantage of getting the et eam.boilere made bi contract, es the expense of transmitting such cumbrous machines from Birmingham or other places would quite counteract any Baring in the cost of construction. The committee's recommendation as to a better systi in of accounts quite agreed with his own opi nion, and the house might depe .d upon it that he would never rest satisfii d until he had a regular debtor and creditor account to submit to parliament for the whole of the work done. The suggestion as to employing engineers in the re pairs of their own vessels bad been aeticieated. The board would entertain the suggestion of transferring the II ilys head establishment to the company by whoni the service was performed at present, and were open to propositiens, pro vided that lull security were given for the proper per formance of the service. The committee thought the steam establishment at Malta excessive, but it was expected by the Admiralty that it would be of the greatest service to our fleets in the Mediterranean. Under the head of vote 10 the committee considered the system pursued with respect ' to the oak timber was impolitic. They seemed to consider that the British oak might be saved by a greater use of foreign timber. Now they were at the present moment ex perimentally using teak, African oak, mahogany, and mare especially Italian oak; but the last had only lately tome into use even in merchants' yards, and therefore its fit- nese had not as yet been fully ascertained. The committee hoped for a reduction in the use of eak timber, in consequence of the completion of the steam navy. But they must not be too sanguine. Three line of battle ships, according to Lord Au-k -land's annual estimate, would require 18,000 toads of timber, and the average consumption for the last few years had been 26,000 loads, so thre s itiere would to only 7,000 loads left for frigates, steamers, and all other morns. He quite con curred with the committee in thinking that naval stores should be kept up, and that restricting them was only put ting off the evil day. The committee then recommended that timber should be taken as a separate vote. To that the only objection was that he expected a great reduction in the estimate for steam-vessels next year. He bad alreacy set down that reduction at 180,0000, and he hoped still that it might be carried out. With respect to new works, about which there had been considerable difference of opinion in the committee, he affirmed that all those which had been undertaken at Portsmouth, Woolwich, aadShatham, were absolutely necess ery for the defence of the country. With respect to the Basin at Devonport it had been made the subject of s local feud, and consequently the government had found the greatest difficulty in coming to a proper conclusion. They had, however, sent down Mr. Rennie to examine into the case, and on his report all future works in that quarter would be founded. Ile came next to the works at Keyham. If those works were now to be commenced, their policy might be doubted, as bad been the • opinion cif the whew, but that 400 OWL lad shady :lately seen(, it wetgl Madeleew to abanderef them.. They were willtag essepentd tba works dulle4fikii *went year, bat certainly t ralle troths at Haulbewline were a lOU to abandon them. I Matter. lutti 0*17,' waited an aarengernent with Lord ?diddle. eon roe a liudlng.place for their completion. The committee next recommended that 20,0001. for the barrsciu at Oosport should not be granted during the present session. Re must protest -against that deeieion. The barracks were absolutely necsuery• and where completed would be one of the floret eatatoithments in Europe. He must, therefore, peen upon the house to grant this amount. There was another recommendation as to the establishment at the ' Bermudas with which he was sorry to say the admiralty could not concur. They were willing hi reduce the vote under that head from 16,0001. to 10,0001., but it was impossible to carry on the works at that station wholly by convict labour, and if the sum now proposed to be taken, which was necessary for iron roofs, was not agreed to, it would impede some very useful works which it was most desirable should be car ried out. He wished to make au observation as to the vote No. 13 for the coast-guard service, which it was proposed to reduce from 16,0001. to 5,0001. In dealing with this service, it was desirable to give every encourag. ment, with the view of connecting it, as far as possible, with the navy reserve and the channel service. They had had a very recent instance of the usefulness of this when 300 men volunteered from the coast guard, on an emergency, for service in Ireland; and he was informed that of the whole body only one mac stood upon what was called his rights, and declined to he employed at sea. He now came to a question en which the Admired,' and the commit tee were decidedly and, he feared, irreparably, at issue—that was as to the vote, No. 14, which related to promotions. The committee proposed that the admiral's list, which for two years was fixed at 150, should be permanently reduced to 100, and that the reduction should be a Ifected by raising oily one captain to the flag for every three vacancies by deaths and by stopping promotion in a comspondir g degree through every other rank in the navy. This decision WO, be be lieved, come to only by a bare majority of the committee, nor was the resolution brought forwurd by the hon. member who was expected to propose it, and to whose mind, he un derstood, so many difficulties occurred in regard to the va rying it out that he was not prepared to sanction it. Nothing could eaprets with more propriety and delicacy the feelings which should weigh with the house in dealing with this question than the preliminary remarks of the committee. They say that the subject is one of great public importance, "and at the name time they are aware that it touches topics intimately connected with the feelings, prospects, and private interes'• of gallant officers towards whom your committee are desirous of evincing eve ry proper consideration ef respect." But the committee proceeded afterwards to give a recommendation, which would, if carried out, injure the prospects and private interests of those gallant officers, and that without soy cor responding advantage to the public. The Admiralty had n wigh to have VA) admirals on the list in time of peace, if it could be shown how it could be prevented. They admitted they could never requite that number in time of war, and that they never had had so to my ; hut then they teld the' fag was the legitimate object of ambition with every officer in the navy ; the hope of attaining to that rank by merito rious service and seniority was one of the conditions on which he had entered the service, and he ought not to be cheated out of it by any subsequent decision of the Howe of Commons, the more sou the question hail been twice before parliament during the last four years, and bail been twice settled on its present touting, without any division. The country had offered terms to the senior captains, to induce them to come into the retired rank of rear-admiral, and leave active service to younger and more active men, and had made a sacrifice to obtain this object of 30,0001. a year. The result of this recommendation would be to keep beck many of the senior and worn out officers on the captain's list from the admiral's rank, and thus you would cheat jouraelves of the consideration for which the 30,00111. was paid, and which you are bound to pay during the lives of these men, viz. • younger and more active body of men on the list of captains lot service, while you would break the heart of many a man vho was now looking forward to the promised reward for long and hardaervice. The effect of this proposal of the com mittee's would be ao to limit prom time in the naval se evict that it would not be worth any man's while who had Is. in his p ocket to enter it. F r these le a eons the Admiralty could not consent to the adop tion of the plan proposed by the committee. The only part of that recommendation in which they concurred was that which referred to the limitation el entrances into the ser vice. He admitted that the introduction of 200 or 300 cadets a year into the navy occasioned a presure for promo tion in every succeeding stage. It was impossible that pros motion could go on in a healthy and regular state under such a system; and Ile, therefore, proposed to adopt the committee's ri commendation in this respect, and to limit the number of cadets to be admitted in any one year to 100, and in the event of any necessity arising for increasing that number a statement of such nece city, and the grounds of it, would be laid before parliament. With regard to the hall pay list, though the reduction in it appear. d small, it should be remembered that the navy had not the resources which the army possessed of disposing of commissions by purchase. A man once on the half-pay list in the navy wan there for life, and be had not the opportunity of Irons leering his commission to a younger matt, who mitelet be called upon for service, as in the army. If they compared the cost to the country of the army and navy, in regard to generals and admirals, they would find that the pay of general officers and colonels of C. giments was 154,000 t. ; of gen. rale unattached, 76,000 e. ; of lieutenant otelonels on hall-pay, 37,0001. ; and of li, tate:taw-colonel, on full prey, 63,0001. ; the total being 330,0001. as the charge for generals and colonels on full and hall pay ; whereas the whole charge for the admirals, cap sins, efice., was only '232,5011. The Admiralty saw no of jectinn that the font-office service should be a separate charge ; that the freight service shou:d he a mutter of account between the two di partments, and not be ' included for the future in the navy estimate a; and I that the charge for the packet department should be in a separate vote. The public saw thooo,ooo/. charged in the navy estimates, and it was not generally remembered that about 1,01)0,0001. of this wee for services with which the navy I had nothing to do. Ile agreed with the committee, there fore, that it was most deeirabte to make this distinction. Ile had now gone through the several recommendatiems of the committee. Altogether, large and small, he btlievell they numbered 33; of these the Admiralty adopted 29—(hear); and he trusted he had given sufficicut reasons why they felt it their duty not to adopt the riot. Ile would only further mid, that he believe d the navy was in as efficient a state writ had ever peen ; all the foreign stations were fully provided for; at home tl.ere was a large force, though net larger than was required. Marty changes had been lately made of a most useful character as regarded the ordinary the guard-ships, and the steam rev rye, at Portsmouth. Of the uttiity of that reserve the committee could not have a better example than in what occurred last wi ele. In the course of that week there was reason to believe that an additu nil force might be necessary in Ire- Icnel. On the 27th of July orders were given to the Admi rally at 10 o'clock in the morning for equipping immediately four en...els of the steam reserve for service; on the 26th, at 10 o'clock in the morn ng, three were on their way to Spit. head with their complements of men, arms, etores, coals, provisions, and everything but the powder on board. The powder was shipped at 3 o'clock in the afternoon, and an hour utter...Hs they ',lied to De vonport, where they arrived at 10 the next morning, and for k on hoard the 63rd Regiment, which they carried to C irk and landed there at 4 o'clock next day. (Hear.) 11 , mentioned this to show that such was the state of efficiency in this department that a sufficient force might be brought to any point in the empire in as short time as could be necessary. But this, whicn m .de us more strong on the one hand, weakened 1113 on the other; for what we c mid du others could do, and our only security was in keeping up this reserve force to as large an extent as was pos.ible. This reserve cost comparatively nothing ; the it amore, were in a constant state of prepare tiun, and the whole eatablish Lent did not exceed 270 men ; and by keeping up this they had six steamers always avail , able for any service at twelve hour. notice, and six more in two or three day., or as aeon as men could lie obtained to pat I into them. The earnest wish of the Admiralty was to carry out economy in every branch of its department, but they were not prepared to do arrythit.g which could in any way ' impair the legitimate source of England's safety in the event oe foreign aggression. They wished hi be prepared with ample means of defence whenever the necessity for it should arrive, —they desired to maintain an e Hective force, not to be nevi for the purpose of eggresaiun on our pert, but to resist it on the part of others, should it ever be attempted ; and to do that, he was happy to say, the navy was never is a more efficient state than at this moment. (Hear, hear.) lie had now to propose that '293,5031. be granted to complete the vote for wages fur seamen and marines for the year 1848-9. The revolution having been put, Mr. HUME wished to know how, consistently with the form of the house, he could take the 'tense of the committee as to those recommendations of the select commit!• e which the hon gentle man said the Admiralty would not adopt ? He thought in many respects the committee upstairs had dealt very leniently with these estimates. The honour , able gentleman (Mr. Ward) said that they had not hit mein , blots considering the extent of the inquiry, but they had not carried the inquiry back to past years or they might have made a great many hits. But the committee heel thought it better to endeavour to correct existing evils, and to improve the management of the Admiralty for the future, than to lose time in inquiring Into the mischief which had been already done; and, seeing **readiness with which the Admiralty had furnished all the Information required, he had been induced to acquiesce in that course. lie believed the waste of money in the con struction of ships had been enormous. The hon. Secretary congratulated the house that the navy was in a most elfi eient state. lie (Mr. 'lame) had never heard a Secretary of the Admiralty who did not say the same thing—(hear) ; but the question was, what was really necessary for the ser a vice of the country. The committee were precluded from entering into the question of the number of men ; but their report proceeded on the principle that, unless they limited I the number of men, they could not place any limit on the amount of stores and provisions. Tnere was no reason for win airing the navy at its present extent ; the circum stance* of Europe had changed from what they had been. There was now no fear of fore lea aggression—foreign nations had enough to do to look to their own affairs. (Ili ar.) The average amount of the navy estimates in the years 1833, '34, and '35 was very little more than half their present amount. In 1833 to 1836 the number of men averaged 27,000, and the expense was 4,630,0001. ; now the number of men was 43,000, and the expense 7,960,0001. The hon. gentleman had spoken of the importance of our steam force; bat he seemed to forget that we maintained as large a sailing torte now as we did before we had any steam force at al/. The force kept up in the Mediterranean,on the coastof Africa, and other foreign stations was far greater than was nee , s nary. lie believed the labours of any committee would be useless in preventing unneceswy expenditure un less f or house determined to ^ stop the supplies and forte the government to economise. He Round throughout the estimated the same tendeney to _i h n . - crease the charge spew the musts* year after year. T n r h i:olo b g f e e F o e le f meamitsto:irsbC.er:o7as th aretdov) htiedneeargeteithereden:mouctionwfa:Edia:tdrha was the °b s of ambition to every one who eeterell the d entlifaiilltho.retteWocryhhaynog.ncenkteltliwiut7.iyhano be n bishop eea m d rea i te as abi la a r e n iior sa object toret o c a f ch t the hu x : n a nhc b:i on: office d hiskusps should be maintained. (A laugh.) ainaned that the increase of general officers armya was as objectionable as the increase of admirals • th e . na r v ice . oArece6B3rdminpgtaitensthweurepo9 y rt a o n f th an e 80 i m t co e e rr e th e m a an:d d r on e and 22 years ir r m s n a n a t d h 8 1 , 0 and on b th at lf d p o a rnol. y r , 20 y ear s and 4 Bhmoanolynfhet: half-pay, years atyhalt 6o neon .2L3 . 79 ,, i d e u s t e m n o e t t h e, .4 ; y t ea o a f n shownl g o n fl , c and :hd, showing f tio7 greater y. er continue.ar o i d E n t state fact h t i e na l o f E t mnt pay, h g e i l things that h ee d ought n than ev lll r ib been o e t t i : n t o t e : i o h d w l so ga i: l : l lfg as she was at present, and it was his intention, before tit Hellion terminated, to call the attention of the house to the subject, and to show what an enormous end unnecessary bur den of taxation that people were now subject d to. The hon. gentleman read an extract from the fourth report ot the finance committee of 1819, presided over by Mr. I/USU.." containing the strongest recommendations to attend in time of peace to retrenchment and economy which recommendations ho must say the present government had noc paid the least attention to, for that house wits now called upon to vote for the army no less than 3,400,0001. more than in former years. Before he sat down he must make one more objection, although it might be considered trifling, and that wax to the waste of public money in useless salutes. (A laugh.) There WA soructimes expended in one day in this extravagance as much ae would relieve nearly all the charities in the country. As far their mode of building ships, it was about the most extravamint that could be de vised ; end altogether, he must say, that if proper economy were studied, toe navy estimates—now about 8,000,000b — might, without injuring the nuble service, be reduced one half. taut he regretted to think that the present govern ment gave no promise of reduction—at a moment, too, when the country stood most in net d of an efficient and economical administration of public affairs. Capt. GORDON and Capt. BERKELEY having made some few observations, Mr. COBDEN said that he did not blame the in crease of expenditure, but the system, which might to be put an end to. If the only ground for increasing the naval armament of the country had been the necessity of keeping pace with other countries, it was plain it might be obviated by an agreement amongst the several countries concerned, instead of running a race of rivalry, to come to the under. I derstantling that there should be no comparative increase, an that each country would then stand in the same relative position, while immense expense would be saved. Ono great trllhe had been and was in our steam navy. At this mos mint we had either built, or building, or ordered, a steam navy equal to 100 vessels, averaging 1,000 tons each; and in addition to these, which might becalled war steamers, we had 60 or 70 small steamer , ' under the denomination of gun boats or tenders. The cost of the war steamers which were equal to 100,000 tons, might be put down at 5,600,000 t., and of the fleet of small vessels at 100,0001., making • gross total of 6,000,001'1. for our steam marine. He asserted, however incredible it might appear, but he did so upon the most cor rect data, that we had actually expended upon our stems warships a larger sum of money than fur the whole of our merchant steamers engaged in the foreign or coasting trade. Now if this race of folly and extravagance were to be conti nued, he did not hesitate to say it would have been a blow ing to the country had steam navigation never been intro- duced inns it. (A laugh.) If we kept up as large a capital in war-steamers as was required for the whole of our mer chant steamers, what possible advantage could there be in it? (Hear, hear.) He would undertake to prove that the war-steamers of Fr ewe, Sardinia, Denmark, Russia, and Austria cost more than their me rchant steamers; acid the present he regarded as a fitting time to induce other nations to reduce the enormous expenditure thus incurred. He affirmed, too, that we had a larger amount of money in vested in steam-factories and steam-basins and docks for re pairing steam-engines, &c., than was embarked in all the private yards and docks engaged in the manufacture of prh vale steamers. For instance, there was invested in Wool wich 150 OWL ; in Portsmouth, 250,0001. ; and in Keyham, near Plymouth, 1,205,0001., making a larger capital than was engaged in the manufacture of alt the steamers et the country. And all this enormous increase took place either in consequence of some anticipated invasion or some proposed increase on the part of other countries. Judging from his evidence, Sir T. Hastings had a sumed that this country was about to be engaged in a war ; that battles vs, uld be fought In certain localities, and that repaint would be necessary for the aar steamers engaged in those battles ; and then he went to work and persuaded the government that it was necessary 12,2'251. should be laid out at Keybarn, in order to make arrangements for the repair of the crippled vessels that might come home from these imagi nary engagements. Sir Thomas Beatings had told the maven ment that it was necessary to have established places for the repair of 70,000 Ilene poser of war steamers, after ligh.ine these imaginary battles, in which the gallant officer also assumed that they mu,t have been victorious. But the gallant officer had been asked this question before the select committee, viz., whether he regarded these pre , parations as being rim nary in time of peace? And to this he had distinctly anareereci " I view all these questions with reference to a state of war . " Still however, great so had been all these preparations, and considereble as had tieen the out lay upon them, they were not held to be sufficient to satiety all the gallant officers who had been a zamined before the committee. The hon. and gallant admiral the member for Laun:eston (Admiral Bowles) had teen asked, what in his opinion ought to be the amount of the force, to which be had answered ; "No profession is unanimous about enythina—(.aughter); hut I believe that ac, officer in the aavy whoa r opinion is worth anything would say that the naval farce of this country ought to be as low as it is at present." (11'ar, hear.) The hon. and ' gallant admiral then went on to give the committ ee h i s idea 'of what the naval force o f this country ought to be, for when asked the question he had repl cal " at least heel more than the force of the French navy, whatever their navy might lie. It they have GO or 70 steamers, we ought to hare 80 or 90." Admiral BOWLES said the copy of the evidence which the hon. member was quoting he (Admiral Dories) had not had an opportunity of correcting. The answer ought to refer not to steamers but to ships of the line. Mr. COBDEN weed not differ from the hon. and gallant I mbvr, but would concede to him that England was en titled to have a larger naval force than any other country. At the same time he adhered to the opinion that when gallant admirals and captaios had been called upon to 'owe their advice to the select committee as to the amount of the naval armament to be kept up by England, they were influenced by professional Celine*, and had urged an increase without any reference to the expense. It seem, cl to him that Sir Thomas Hastings had canunitted a great error, and had assumed a physical possibility, which he called upon I the government and the house to recognise as a moral probability. (Hear, hear.) lie assumed that the French fleet might come to Gosport and desiroy the establishm. at at Portsmouth—that was a possibility; bat ware it a probability ? and yet he call.d upon the caenrry to incur millions of ex p. one. And where was this expenditure to end? Nothing alieet of martello towers ere veil round the coast, within 100 yards of eitch other, would convince the old ladies of the country that they were safe. lie (Mr. Cobden) thought that in all these proceedings they had shown a want of rt Enelish pluck." This was thought elsewhere; fur he fennel in an American paper the coarse remark that England had incurred a large expense to play the bully, and that now she was incurring a large expense to play the coward.. 'Chose expenses bad b en incurred to meet imaginary dim gers, and what no power was coming to molest the country; anal he asked her Majesty's government whether something might not be dune to put a atop to the inordinate expendi ture—whether it was not possible and rational to make a proposal to continental states to discontinue the absurd sys tem of inereusina armaments. He might be called utopian is making this suggestion if be did not find himself sane leaned by a big.. authority in this house—no less a one than the right h en. baronet the member for Tamwortn—who, its 1811, just before he took office, asked if the time was no' co iie when the powerful countries ot Europe might reduce their simameuts, which had so assiduously been raised to overgrown establishments. I. one (sewer, said the right hon. baronet, in, tressed its army and navy, others fol lowed the example, and he asked what was the danger tram foreign invasion compared with the danger of creating discontent by crippling the comforts of the popaletion by enormous burthetia of expenditure. He (Mr. fanlekn) wished the councils of every nauon, and the public mind in each, wound propagate these doctrines. The; country had sent many embcasiea abrosd to negotiate both fir pence and war, and he (Mr. Cobden) asked the house and the country why r missionary should not go from the Foreign-office to France and ether countries to propose a partial disarmament in each in time of peace. At present this country was keeping a force equal to tnat which she hail maintained when engaged in war. For this purpose 18.000,0001. wee voted ; and what did that sum represent ? Why is. represented 8,000,000 quarters of wheat—it repre seated 1,800,000 of 101. heuses—is represented the value of the whole of the towns en the coast; and he maintained it was as much thrown away as ii it was cast into the sea, be cause it produced nothing for the country. The purposes for which the naval armament was kept up had never been pro perly defined. True it was that the Earl of Auckland, the First Lord of the Admiralty, had been questioned by the committee as to the rule which guided him in the dispo- Aden of his forces, and had declared that there was no rule, but that he thought it right to have a larger force than any other nation in every quarter of the globe. And what was the practical result ? They had been employed in the miserable affair of the River Plate There had been a waste of money at Monte Video and Buenos Ayres, but Lord Auckland had kept a fleet there because he said the French had a fleet there which it was necessary to watch. But Wile this generally necessary ? This country had a trade with China, and on that coast she kept no leer than 25 ships I of war; and, he asked, could any trade be ramble when such an expenditure was necessary to protect it? Any increase of inch a trade would prove the ruin of thee country. Surely, then, some definite rule ought to be laid down to guide the government in fixing the disposition of I the naval establishment. He observed that in the evitlence it was admitted that the trading vessels of this count y were now everywhere free from the attacks of pirates. This was a modern gain and advantage to this country which their forefathers had not enieyel. True there were Malay prows in the Indian archipelago, but it did not require ships of war to attack them, because they did not attack the Bettina teasels of this country. Oa the contrary, they only attacked one another. Again, there were now no tears like those which prevailed when the Algerines used to strip the Medi terranean; and therefore, on all these grounds, he contended that these armaments were maintained merely other • becalm European nations were running against each race of folly and extravagance. Why not, then, commence pacific overtures for the reduction of th• N expensive and useless armaments? He (Mr. Cobden) had been taunted the other night by the hen, member for Oxfordshin (Mr. Henley), that he had not proved a good het with regard to the French revolu tion. Now he ( Prof Mr. Cobden) thought he could not be blurted for not seeing a month before that which Louis l'hi.ippe aid M. Guizot did not see at 12 o'clock on the day preceding that on which the explosion had taken place. But what was now going on in Europe presented no symp tom of any war between the great nations of which it was composed. Each country wislied to settle down and live in peace. The popular voice now prevailed, and wee averse to wars originating in the quarreler( crown.cl heads and royal marriages, and such like. ( hear.) He repeated that there was nothing in the present state of things to prevent the government from asking foreign states to retrace their steps, and commence the process of disarmament. All countries exhibited the necessity of reducing con l theiir expen diture in this respect. Look at the titan of this country, and then let Ilan. members ask themselves whether, in this respect, they were not pursu ing a course which, as private individuals, or as members of a pariah vestry, or of a municipality, they would not be ashamed to adopt. (Hear, hear.) It was admitted that this year there was a deficit of 1,700,0001. Reduce the arms. menu and then trade and commerce would be relieved. Take off 1,000,0001. irom the naval expenditure, and then the tea duties might be repealed, by which the trade with China would be increased, with manifest advantage to the merchant, the manufacture', and the working classes. Take tall another million and the whole force of exc se officers might be dispensed with. Re believed that France was pre pared to set this country an example with respect to the reduction of her armaments, because he had saner tallied that M. Cloudelaux propeneed to reduce the naval expenditure of that country by 31,000,000 francs. This had appeared in Cialignemi, but he (Mr. Cobden), doubting the authenticity, had written toe friend, •member of the National Assembly, who had compared the statement, and said that Mr. Ooudchaux had addressed circulars to the Minister of Marine and other departments t' that affect. To Ame.ica this country could no , . set an example, because there the naval expenditure bail never exceeded 1,250,0001. In conclusion, he again repeated that it became the house and the country to urge and entreat the government to use its diplomacy to induce other nations to retrace their steps and reduce the inordinate expenditure now la vished in the maintenance of armaments. (Hear, hear.) Admiral BOW LES said the great error which the lion. member (Mr. Cobden) had throughouthis speech committed arose from his having viewed this question simply as one of mere pounds, shillings, and pence, and had nut considered the great national advantages to which this expenditure would give rise, both at home and abroad. The hon. roe m. her had dealt with the question in a very ad capratedunt manner, and had failed to take • statesmanlike view of it. (Hear, hear.) He had thrown ridicule on the notion of a party in this country with reference to the peace of Europe ; but he (Admiral 11 t wles) must take leave to inform the lion. member that at the time the outlay of the late government was made the dangers were real, and such as it became the duty of those having the responsibility to provide sgainst. The hon. member had alluded to the evidence of Sir Thomas Hastings, with respect to which he (Admiral Bowles) would say that there was no doubt that if a war had broken out suddenly (as had been likely in 1844) the country was in great danger of being unprepared, owing to the ill.understood and ill-considered system of eco iiiimy which had prevailed during the preceding ten years. What had been the fact? Why France, seeing that this country was very much relaxing ir. its attention to its naval force, turned its attention to the increase of its steam navy, and set about erecting dockyards and building ships, at an expenditure which he confeased,wst bath unwise and. unjustifiable. She, however, made great naval prepare , tieing, despite the appeal of the right hon. baronet the mem her for Tarcworth, to which the hon. member for the West Riding (Mr. Coteler.) had alluded. Instead of catering into the views expressed in that appeal, France adopted a reverse course, and every person, the chemise-I, and t,,e government set out on a race to see how best they could prepare for a war with this country. Now circumstances were changed, and he trusted a better spirit had grown up among the French people ; but at the time he had mentioned it was manifest that the naval preparations of France were directed against this country, and it therefore became the government here, both the late and the present, to male ex ertions ; and he could bear the fullest testimony not only to the necessity of those ex , rtions, but also to the fact that no expenditure had been incurred beyond that which was abso lutely necessary. After the able speech of the hon. gentle man the Secretary for the Admiralty (Mr. H. G. Ward) he (Admiral Bowles) did not feel it necessary to trouble the house with many observations. He should not enter upon a defence of the evidence he had riven before the select com mittee • but if there was any fl aw in it he begged the hon. member (Mr. Cobden` now to point it out in his presence, that he might answer or explain it. Admiral DUNDAS said that no rule was adopted by the Board of Admiralty without the surveyor of the navy being preterit, though he was nut entitled to a seat at the board. Mr CORRY, who was most indistinctly heard, defended I the increase which had been made iii the salary of the Second Secretary to the Admiralty—an increase wnich had bola cantempiated by the administration with which he had beim connected. As to the statement of the ships of the line hav ing been reduced to 50, he (Mr. Corry) had Teuton to believe that the ships of the line now ready for sea we re 75 or 80 in number, all of which he was glad to state could be m o st readily manned. NS ith regard to the expenditure upon ex periments of the application of the screw, he could state that those in the Blenheim had been most successful, and he was convinced that a valuable addilon would be made to the naval service by the adoption of the screw pro pellers in old guard-ships, and in that opinion he was fortified by that of Capt. Chads. He trusted no ministry would ever be found ready to act on the principles advocated by the hon. member for the West Riding. Lord .1. RUSSELL—The hon. member for the West Ridirg has .aid down certain principles which may be of use for after-consideration, with a view to the prepat ation of the estimates fora future year. No one, I believe, wishes to re duce the navy estimates for the present year. But I think it important that the house should give some coosideration to certain of the hon gentleman's principles, with a view to what is to be the basis of our estimates in future. The hon. gentleman said, very fairly and very truly, that we cannot "mt all coasideratioes of the naval force of other countries; and uot only so, but that no one in this country, nor any foreign power, can find fault if our navy were stronger than that of any foreign power. (Hear.) So far I quite agree with him. I do not go so far as Lord Castlereagh did in 1817—that this country ought to have a naval force equal to that of any two foreign pewees : but I think that what the hon. member foe the West Riding has stated, that we ought to be stronger at sea than any . foreign power, is a proposition to which the house may fa irly went. But, in discussing what that force should be, the hon. gentleman laid down principles in which I cannot petaibly concur. Ile quoted very correctly the statement of the right hon. gentleman at the head of the late government—that it was most desirable that countries should agree not to run a race of competition as to the amount of force which they should keep up; that such a course would lead to great extravagance; and that it would be Mr more rational and better for the people of all countries to agree in making moderate reductions than to seek to exceed each other. In that principle 1 quite agree. But the hon. gentleman omitted to state that the right honourable baronet when in power, without at all retracting that view, had yet found it necessary in consequence of the increase of the French navy, very much to increase our force, and to lay the foundation of very extended force of steamers—(hear, hear)—thus incur ring a very large expenditure, and laving obliged to act on principles other than those which he thought it most desir able both for this country and France to act upon. It is ob vious, that. had France been willing to take that suggestion, and had she made a great reduction at that time, the right hon. gentleman would have acted on the principles he had Lid down. But as France went on the opposite principle, making a great expenditure in order to have a large naval force, and especially a large force of steamers, it was quite impossible for any government of this country not to follow that course, and have on one side • consideralile force by which we might be able to defend ourselves in care of a war with France. (Hear, hear.) When Sir Thomas Hastings said that this country might be exposed to war, and that if • war broke out, there probably would be battles at sea, I don't think he wandered tar into the regions of imagination, or laid himself open to the charge of being extremely fanciful in supposing that I something might occur which had occurred six or seven times l in the course of the lst centur and that it was well to be prroared lor it. (H a ear, hear. y, ) But the hon. gentleman I says our steam navy has cost an enormous sum, more than the whole mercantile steam marine of the country. With out knowing the particulars of that estimate, I should be mr.rh inclined to doubt whether that is the case. But the interenee he draws is not well founded, that the navy is larger than that which it would have to protect in cue of war ; for our steam navy would not only have to protect the merchant steam navy, but the whole of the com mercial marine of the country, as well as to serve for other purposes of war, defence, and as sistance to fleets. It wou:d be • very inadequate notion of the use of our steam navy to suppose that it is only to protect our merchant steam navy. But the principle of say mg how much is the exact cost of the navy, and what is the benefit to be derived from it in case of war, would lead to very absurd conclusions. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentle man says our steam navy has cost more than would be spent in building all the towns on the coast. Supposing that ' were true, would it be a wise thing for this country, in an economical point of view, to refuse to spend this five, six, or ten millions, whatever it may be, and let all the towns on I the coast be destroyed ? (Cheers.) Supposing we had in formal ion, at the beginning of a war, that the French steam worth 15,569,9991. and 9,999 d i nt l rzed l , o w ed o , uld wh an il y e gainers by this ; for these navy had gone from Dover to Land's end, and that every t n tne to e w wen n ea s hya w " were been After O n n only oe w 'fi r we ere it would have coat, at least, 5001. more to have had a navy which would have saved those towns from destruction." (Cheers.) It is quite obvious the effect would be that the whole country would be in a real panic, such a panic as arises when • country finds itself incapable of defence. (Hear, hear.) And as to economy, what gives the whole security of capital in this country ? What has caused people to lay out with the menet confidence in the last few years upwards of 300 ,000,0001. in railways? What causes them with such confidence to enter into commercial and manufacturing speculations ? It is the belief that this country is assured of its independence, that it can maintain order within and respect without, and that therefore capital can be safely laid out snit invested. (Cheers.) If every town on the coot was burnt by a French navy, that feeling of security would at once cease, and persons who had in vested capital here would say—" Let us go and invest our capital in New York, or Philadelphia, and fiee .... •ro a , try which has neither the wisdom no , -- L i sle rage to defend itself." (Hear, hear.) i37 l ‘ pears to meto be the pounds, shillings, and pee,. our national defences. Without anise hag to the patriotism, or national spirit, or anything oe T. , - ,„_,` 4 9, r the " British lion" (laughter), 1 would ask o — '0„ cheapest way of maintaining the capital and riee 6 7jk country ? It is a far cheaper way to tulle* the ( .;`k down by the right hon. gentlemen the late Prim e y_ 4 44 of having a good steam navy, one sufficient for ta,,„ of our coasts, than to calculate the exact sum wieg7.l navy has cost, and compare it with the valets of o bi that might be burnt. (Cheers.) In much th e; — , i .be ; member for the west riding has said I aare e; eed rie if the present French governmenr, being wi.,e it tru e g overnment, should think it proper to tediase e Zsl p their naval expenses, which appear to me to furs let travegant of late years, that would furnish good o Zni, a s to carry into effect retrenchments coeld -- '‘,„ wise be effected. (Hear, hear.) I think, 1ikevi — .... 14 1.. committee which has lately sat hes pointed ~; ; ,:•te sources of expense which may very well be ie eL h al , inquiry and careful amendment in the coarse year. I quite disagree wi h the hon. gentlerue it was not just to subject the estimates to the e , - 7 . select committee. (Hear, hear.) To take that ey „.. 1 1 year would be very unadvisable and unusual, a er j: l ty shirking the ordiniaty responsibility of a gov er* ,4 4 k . for my own part, I regret that that course ICU sot !t 1818, 1828, and 1838 ; and I think it was take it in the present year. (Hear, hear.) such cnmmittus, from time tin.., not too frega eo :c intervals of a few years, enable a government to the expenses they have irriurred, and to t.,ke a b e o with regard to many detain of their expenditure, " a hear.) I perfectly agree likewise that nothiog s 7 foolish than for governments to vie with eac h . 41 attempting to have large armament.(Ch e st ~t general course, this is m'ot unwise, W e in the position of the United State of vie are naturally more involved in 41 which concern the continent of Europe ; powers of Europe would all do well to keep th.ir within moderate linatte. (Cheers.) When the hoe: fur the west riding rpeaks of the prophesy e r e, e i t 7 with respect to the trobabi ity of a revolution is y e ,.. 44 mu.t remind him that he made another ptophe ry that the present government would be so inflatanC; clubs and coteries of London, that, in a very they would become involved in a war with the heed s public. I thought at the time that that premien., unjust to the governm , nt. (Hear, hear.) 1 eae hon. gentleman that it never was our wish to you r the government of France—(hear, hear)—and 1 mak: short time which has elapsed since the revolution ot P a ; has Ammo that it has been our desire to act retire e cert, and, at all events, on the best terms of a • I nc ; r. lations, with a government so powers! sa L rle e ,„ cned as that of France. (Cheers.) lau ele; that the present government of France dishie" wisely those projects of ambition which led Frew the republic and under the empire, at first to briai 4 quests, and afterwarde to a. signal calamities; diet * sent goverment of France, and I Witte the whet French nat ion, concur in the impolicy of such amine on the contrary, their wish is to preserve the pea col and that if there is a desire to break the rand Er * arises not from France, but in other quarters. ' I cannot say that F think the present state of Ewe. assured that any statesman could confichntly tindie s t e number of years. the continuance of peace; baton . ]: to the government of France, I believe they are 'sine a sincere desire to preserve that peme. (liear,hesz i 1. lieve the powe:ful government of Russia is antreatetsi tl same desire ; and I think, when three such powerful'. , ments as England, France, and Russia concur in to to maintain the peace ot Europe, we may pretty e Rot g i a s t i t rt h A slte l a w eezi:l d be e preeerved could believe , with ' the member for the West Riding, that democratic gm way calculated to secure peace. ahe triumph of dre in Germany had been followed up by the nivorimi!' mark and Holland—a mere unprovoked invenouthun tie found recorded in the page+ of history. The ma. ot the hon. member for the West Riding was unfae*" not fouud.d on fact ; his opinions on war were tot, authorised by all that bad happened, and he wt. m* right in not piquing himself on his powers ot pass (A laugh.) lie bad drawn many flattering tiettanea to be erected, and worked, and churches oat ea to be filled, which bad not vet been realised, and teng his assumption of the warlike consequences which bs from monarchical government was equally Wee It was not sovereigns ar aristocracies that calmed tan which existed in Europe in modern times. This thr. e wars in Europe in the last 2.50 years, exit are lasted 30 years, ar.d in each case the war arose inn? passion. The Thirty Years War in Germany ao td by popul ass amino sod popular prejudice. The war di reign of Louis .IV. was not awi r of individei On the contrary, it arose from the indgoant ram Europe. Neither was the war cansequent on Ike revolution promoted by individuals or by an All those wars were occasioned by popular punier judice, and the ambition of nations. Then timers what were called little wars : it would be toned de were net occasioned by sovereigns or cehineta. Or powerful minister was forced against his will by a the liouea of Commons to engage in a war vitt Tile hon. gentleman (alr. Cobden) said the beg peace was the desire of nations to keep at home. Tie plc:: of nationality and rare were now emits* but they were two different things. Nationality principle of political independence—race that c ' analogy. The principle of race, and not the primp tionality, was adopted by Germany—that down tranquil Germany, that only W wan ha t must b ted to be c (" Hear, hear," and laughter.) be consequence if the principle of race, to which gentleman looked as the best security for pun ea be accepted as a great p.litical trit.h? kin principle, and why should France be left bread Alsace ?—Why should Russia be left Linn.' St hea.) In that principle of race there was the coupe general war, and yet it was on that principle theaml gentleman came down to criticise the estimate., uilq that there was any necessity for the country to alma lie was not surprised that the hon. gentlemu stsa opposid to protection in every shape—(latighav-xl trusted that the protection of home and ol ti would be always popular on both lido G I house. (Hear, hear.) The noble lonl great confidence on the prospect of peace ins vein standing between what he described as the threrpe governments of England, Russia, and France. (feet to find that there was a strong goveroment sis (Laughter.) But he should like to know why 12.:a gov , rnment was not recognised by the Queen. Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to sty tlev recognised. Mr. DISRAELI said that the powerful prefix which the noble lord alluded seemed to him to x • , lug the crisis of its destiny. But, revert:ay tote - hetore the house, be should like to know mulls done to protect British commerce and Briiils trading in the Baltic, where one of the stricter that was ever proclaimed was now declared ? Sist ego Danmark proclaimed a blockade; but it vat in a mat.ner as little noxious as po.sible to • and especially as regarded Engli s h commerce. Irt, Denmark received from them he need out remind es, (Hear, hear) But now • blockade of the raze.: c. stringent character was proclaimed, and r.o house could blame Denmark for the course she ta. (Hear, hear ) It was not only strict and were, much snore comprehensivehan the. former es, L.: (erred to the whole of the Baltic. and would tea- , their communication with the west of Gering• be a great satisfaction and consolation to Britidis: who had shown great temper on the whole epeeist misconceptions between Deumark and Gerais* t , what steps had been taken to preserve [Writes commerce in the Baltic. The mediation of this oar' been asked for, not by Denmark, who oaly sAic , vernment to fulfil the guarantee which esistedrr of England— (hear)—but by Prussia, speekiag sit new German confederation, and yet the srm'° been agreed upon was not yet completea, and Demo forced to t..ke the step which had been that thystv It would be gracious it the noble lord opposite (LS ,., ld *ton) won inform them whether Prussia still rrorr s independent state ? (Laughter.) The Prince Le one of the mediatised princes, an able and mxo had been made minister of foreign affairs ta the confederation, and it would be well to hordod e King of Prussia had also become a raedisfited Pte' so, whether he would accept office under thew! ation t tLaugh•er.) These were subjects os ilm merchants were entice I to some informition rt another blockade of great importance, with reP he wished to know what steps h ad been taken Al l Lion of British commerce. He should like to km+ the state of affairs in the troubled wattn of ir:j He had reasons for asking that question, beast In' calved a letter from a person connected with a , able house in Liverpool, stating that they hair,. to suspend pajment in consequence of the stated r"; that quarter, and that if some settlemeet ws as" every other house trading to La Plata mete similar result. For five or six years they bri dented amount of force in the Rio de la Plea: very remarkable that they had no accounts .. 4. 7.; thme revions. British enterprise was most scow; establishments had been formed there. Isirrr...i • was directed to the disturbed district, and be ms_r . . - what had been done for the rindicatioe ol" and the protection of their interests ia Ire an early period of the session he asked th,, lay on the table the instructi ons which had beta envoy extraoroinary who was to terminated' tr,;,.11, Lions and differer.ees that existed in Ls PIMA. " lord objected, on the groun d that. Lord 110ne "00 having failed, another special mission _, 0 , the production of the instructions might pn termination of the negotiations. Ta il , failed, and a third person had been mot ogt,,a Of Commons received no informaien on the .t;!l t er, - seemed they were as far from a settlement el . a s ever. lie thought the House of Collllo llll l ° , quire first of all why the excellent Mr Mao *r_7,; ; ,. • • ter at Buenos Ajres, had not obtained " next, why Mr. Ouseley, who had beels tb re ent , /1 ":„ja, Aberdeen, had also failed ; why Mr. lioodtLl!,•,o4, Mr. It. Gore, fi ve envoyrextraurdiniq, „. understood that Mr. Southern, the sixth eor';'• , ;, : way, and yet the House of Comma?' or rt,'!. it without any infatuation one e sub) , ct, :•I,jvc cautile houses were failinn conslOo race s ireatt remaining unsettled . It now appeare d w cial source that the government of Framer B aton enforce instantl a stringent blocksle,o, ams The effect of tha y t would be most 11400.1 THE EXPRESS, THURSDAY EVENING• AUGUST 10, 1848.