The Express. — London, England, 1847-03-13 00:00:00

. frAwdelheeli=hlei is enable them to reach the Upper Skates of cwhere there was a great demand fur la bour. lie vdeled ti, know whether the povernment had aide, or eententplated making, preparation for affording each sasistana ? Mr. HAWES replied that them was a small fund, and but a very small fund, at the diepaal of the Emigration Board, out of which a small provision migl.t be made to emigrants, if destitute, on their arrival in the colony, to eatble th^m prceeed m their demita•im. That font was composed of a small tax levied upon the emigrants in the colony, asaisted by a vote of the houses, but it was so small as to require the u:most frugality aad care in its distributioa. In the increase his noble friend proposed in the vote of Ilia year he was not aware whether there was any intention a providing a fund to convey destitute emigrants from the pert of debareation to their ultimata destitution. have Dean by a great number of representations from indi vidual officers employed in various departments of the ems- ntissariat sad theßoard of Works, the government deter mined that it was neneseary to reduce as far as pasellile at this time of the year, when the ploughing and sowing should take place, to prepare for the coming crops—to reduc., as far Lo possible, the number of persons employed oa those public works. (Cheers.) And, with this view, and on these grounds, my right hon. friend the Secretary for the Home Department, wrote to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, sug gesting to him that the number should be reduced as far as possible, and that no new talents should be made, ex cept spin very epeMfi pounds, in which ease he should mks a spesid meet to the Secretary of State. The Tvessaty hays also illeastaa eat— POOR-I.AS . _(I . RELA.NI)) BILL. ot lttfe %Amodio.* Mom that tram dataiday, dm Min of Nook So maw • t pair imployel an the lOW works will be raml bp ast Moo em be pot art, mil OM the malathr will be anioModl b mandwo dad In the prepertim and Mir Mr Is M horistrathall hp Ida laud, untll the mow ark= at MIK mho tho Nth of Vlstri► op. y shall hare bun km* inno Yepwla Ihmom* *pa tor earn ing MY moot his AIM et la Ma 1p tho DIM ot worts la tha =sr - FIIMEN Ming to NOM al Isad sal an all IND tho 71M of Morely eveXtej aril tho plogothim ot L pram UM number et Mt prrbeatt not ommt WM ohm meted, them pm, lath Iwo to hodlothoopot *Mid Malrlatma.t or lad ( hoo Ma tea am). or et tier mom* et any deterlptionZ homer, rAtiono et map or prowinfOthor Mode can be Mar W milt somilthom eamlllthod elf to Vie., S. 7. re orPar mom hr oth &Mate mama ho *MM. the raid wake Y Mat dhdrith an to entirely • oil if Mom Ihr tho meant, M @applied ooly to e Ilidad amber, a pro. pie motion Is to be made of thalami employed upon the woolm" _ _ • Mr. G. HAMILTON lied given nodes of a clause to tho 'Sect that no holder of land to the extent of half an acre, should he considered as a destitute person , and the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) on a former evening, gave him reason ee believe that he was faveurahlo to that view. He wished ft ask the noble lord whether he proposed to intrados* on provision in the Poor-law Bill, so to limit the raid le exclude such persons, and he further was &sinus a ma Lining how soon they might expect an intimation fen , government of the introduction of any measure et the mate -set of vagrancy in Ireland ? Lord J. RUSSELL had already stated tut ho concern* in the principle of the hon. gentleman's amendment ; at lie same time he would rather he would bring forward Ilde clause in the shape he thought proper, in order that MU ' opinion of the house might be ascertained before he deter• mined on the amount of land, the possession of which should exclude from the claim to relief. With regard to the Vagrant Bill, he cool l not then say when it would be brought for ward; certainly, it would not be until after the Poor-law Bill had passed. (Hear.) MINT PROSECUTIONS -•PAYMENT OF POLICE. M.. HUM V. ~Meiroel that it had appeared from the pub lic papers, that on a trial which Viols place a few days ago for coining, in which certain policemen were examined as witnesses, it was stated that it was the rule of the authorities at the Mint to pay them extra money for their attendance in such prosecutions. That was thought by the judge a most objectionable course. He wanted to know from his right lion. friend whether the s'atement in question was true aa to the existence of the practice, and if so whether any new re gulations were in contemplation to put an end to it for the future ? Mr. SHELL had been informed on enquiry that the prac tice referred to did exist, and hid existed for a very long time—formerly to a much greater extent than at present. Considering, however, that it was a practice liable to extreme abuse, he had given directions, so far as it was in hie power, for its discontinuance. (Hear.) By these means, and looking at the various measure, which have been taken to bring into operation, with as little delay as possible, the act of this session, it is hoped, me long, that the number of men engaged upon the relief works may be greatly diminished. We look to these measures as the means of enabling the Armen to procure the labour necessary for the cultivation of the soil. and we have every reason to hope that the labourers themselves, being deprived of the resource of the relief works, will he the more ready to accept the terms proposed to them by the farmers. I need hardly take any notice of the other measures which are now under the consideration of the house, because the one I have alluded to is of so great an extent—so totally . uneeempled in its character, and so appalling in its magnitude, that the other measures which are now in progress—measures in respect to drainage — Mr. Labouchere s letter, and the measures as to fisheries and the improvement of public works and harbours—though these are matters undoubtedly deserving of great attention, I do not propose to enter further into the consideration of them at present. What I desired was, to enable the house before the Treasury minute shall be printed in a voluminous shape, to Hear, the course which the government were pursuing. Hear, hear) I now, sir, turn to that which is the proper minces of this evening, and upon which I think it necessary to make some observa tions, in consequence of the representations which have been made to me. A few days ago a memorial, signed by no less than 64 peers of Ireland, and 43 members of the House of Commons, was presented to me; and not having made any general explanation of this bill—not having made any ex planation certainly upon it as it is now amended I thought, looking at the importance of that document, that it would be mere respectful to the persons who signed it to take some notice of their representations before asking the house to go into committee upon the Poor Relief Bill. These sixty-four peen and forty-three members of parliament form a list of persons well acquainted with Ireland—many of them from long residence and having an intimate knowledge both of that country and England. But, sir, having care rally red their representations, I confess I am unable to agree in the resolutions which they have laid down—(hear, hear)—reeelutiom which, if followed out, would preclude this louse frets entertaining at all the question of out-door relief Ihr theshbobodied. (Hear, hear.) Their third resolution is le the knowing words : oat lba risdebs ass *dog eetAsse waist is us aaiaimare timemed bes bin esidesenedliy lades eemillus sett smebstniu se wit es by*. same sp. topoliko Ode see.ett. en/ ratlts of The bet by ~it Us been &sus bee Wise. ism thsvett essiseseeled auk bistested eta iskosw aorta sedenprid _es Men preihnien ar effi lbr asmonsiss owsiossiwir Mu mesh Nine idelly mien dirs. Mr re psgle, totems erat4sse relief tellesblebsdied Isbaster tvlb predate end the sem hammidde esesnqeseeen g r or:Vrith regard le the bat pet of this statement I have nothing to say, se I do not with to go into any examination of the reports of the several commissions or parliamentary committees, but with regard to the latter part, I hare two observations to make. First, I do not agree that the relief given during the last twelve months, aceom'oanied by labour, does so conclusively prove that out-door relief to the able bodied, combined with the test of labour, will produce and perpetuate the evil consequences alluded to, however expen sive it may have been. That abuse, which was almost a necessary attendant upon what we undertook to do is the relief works, does not at all attach to a poorrate levied upon the property of Ireland. (Hear.) In the relief works there was a great readiness to make presentments for advances from the Treasury for those works, and also a very great readiness in recommending persons to be employed upon them. From the beginning it was stated to be a mama of advances, and many, pressed by immediate want and the outcry of distress, did not consider that the money so obtained was to be paid back by the rate-payers of Ireland, but looked upon it as a rum advanced by the Treasury. Fo r this reason the system was liable to the abuse complained of. Amongst the reports I have been reading within the last few days, it is stated by one that the relief committee put upon the relief works many of those who were best able to Ruppert themselves, and who were in possession of several acres of land ; and that overseers had been appointed who were themselves farmers to a considerable extent. But it is obvious, if you impose a rate and say that the destitute are to be paid out of that rate, and thus make every ratesayer and every guardian have an interest in the matter— beer, hear)—it is obvious that they will all feel concern that those who are 'in independent circumstances shall not be plated upon the list of 'the destitute, that that list will thereby be narrowed, and that a constant watch will be kept ever it to see that it is confined to proper objects of relief. (Hear.)'The experience of the last twelve months is anything but conclusive against such relief as we propose to give by this bill, and there is nothing in the principle of it which make* it necessary that the out-door relief to the able-bodied shall be gratuitous. I hold that the poor law guardians and commissioners should have the same power of giving employment, adapted to the situation of the persons requiring relief, as exists in England. We all know that in this country, when the workhouse is full end there are able-bodied labourers to be supported, work is given to them as a test of their destitution, which enables the guardians to limit very much the number of perms ap pl)ing for relief. We do not intend to propose a different =mean for Ireland. But there is a further question to which I must refer, because I have had the honour of re ceiving a deputation of gentlemen who have made some re presentations to me respec ting . the possible abate of oat-door relief. I said to them, It is quite true that it is very diffi cult to prevent out-door relief from being attended with abuse; it is Moe that there did exist in England very great abuses, and it may be true that the system is not at present wholly free from abuse; but what I have to say to you is this : We have seen a vast number of people in the greatest state of destitution in Ireland; we are told by those most conversant with Ireland, who have examined and made reports upon the subject, that that state of destitution, although it has been greatly aggravated by the failure of the potato crop, is not unusual or accidental-(hear, hear)—and what we ask you is, if the destitute poor are not to be provided for by outd oor relief when the workhouse is full, and since you object to my plan now before the House of Com mons—what other plan are you prepared to recommend ?" (Loud cheers.) And to that question, which seemed really not to have been expected—(laughter)—l got this answer from one member of the deputation : that the private charities of Ireland were so extensive ' it was not likely that any person would be allowed to starve--(a laugh)— while another member immediately observed that he did not think, with the great change which was taking place in refer emu to the culture of the potato, that the same ex tent of private charity could henceforth be relied upon. In that opinion I fully concur. (Hear, hear.) I quite admit that there has been an immense extent of private charity in Ireland ; but then it ha. been the charity of the poor to the very poor—(sheen)—the charity of the small farmer to the destitute labourer—the charity of the farmers and resident gentry, generally, to the mendicants and those who ask for alms. Until the passing of the Poor Law Act for Ireland, which I had the honour to introduce, and which I sow propose to extend, I do not believe there was any burden whatever on the large proprietors--(hear, hear) — who did not choose to contribute to a private charity. There was so demand whatever on the peat absentee proprietors, who did not themselves see the mumble objects of distress. It was their duty, if not to see, at least to relieve; and who also, unless they chose it, might avoid altogether—l will not say any obligation—but any payment for that purpose. (Neer, bear.) If, then, that be the case, I ask the question again—seeing that hitherto the destitute in Ireland, who have not been supported in the workhouse, hare been supported by the voluntary charity of the resident classes in Ireland, and of these chiefly by the poorer claws —that the farmer has contributed a portioa of hb potatoes, or of his own meals, whatever it might be, to support the men- dioant who called at his door—l sok, when the cultivation of the potato will be greatly diminished, so as to alter altogether the social state of the country, to whom, then, are the desti tute people of Ireland to look for support t (Loud cries of " hear.') I must say that the deputation to which I am referring, at once rejected the notion that they could come in I other years to the imperial exchequer, and ask for further loam, advances, or grants. Not one of them expected that such • step could be resorted to, and I readily do them the justice of admitting It. (Hear, hear.) But I must say that the economy of the question still remains—how are we to expect that those destitute perms will be supported ? I really know no way by which it an be done unless we resolve that the measure now before the house shall per into a law, guarded and secured by all the fences which the house may think requi site, but still declaring that • person who is starring, and has an ICSOIIIOI, shall be relieved, in the workhouse if there is room, sad out of it, if it be fall. (Cheer.) In Riving this Cifitthe house, I think I can place it upon very o g r ounds. I can place it In the tint plum upon the Cunthat, after what I have stated, no man can accuse cil the other house of parliament, or parliament col lectively, of having been niggardly to Ireland in her es tremity. No man can my that en this time of need the lontrilmtiene the. ham been mede whether collected Pr the oompnleory taxation of the people or from gifts voluntarily offered by them, whether you consider the millions we have proposed to vote, or the hundreds of thousands now being collected in the country, whether yen take the one sum or the other, no man can accuse the people of Great Britain of a went of liberality and generosity in the present circum stances of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) I feel that I ant justified in saps( this: though pe r haps I should hardly say It if it wars net that such' re peated alums are made—l do not POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL-GOVERNMENT MEASURES FOR IRELAND. On the question of going into committee on the Poor Relief Bill, Lord J. RUSSELL said, before you leave the chair, air, I wish to state, generally, what have been the lateet proceed ings of thegovernment with respect to the lamentable state of affairs now existing in Ireland, and to all attention to one or two of the principal provisions of the bill before the house. In the midst of the present aithcti.in in Ireland, I think it is due to the house, looking at the darkness by which we are surrounded, and the peril, which are before us, to ac quaint th em with the steps which are being taken fro m time to time by the government, and with those measures which may at a future period have &serious influence on the destiny of that country, and the empire. (Hear, hear.) The house is alresiy acquainted both with the steps which we have taken before th e commencement of the cession, and also with DE: continued refusal which we gave to entertain some other measures of large import, to which our attention has bean repeatedly called. But, air, while we agreed that with ma pert to the supply of provisions there should be an amount of about 10,000 tons always in store in the various depots in those parts of Ireland where there are no regular markets, we have uniformly declined to undertake the fee& ing of the pecide of Ireland by the importation of provisions. And likewise, sir, while we consent/ d that a sum of not more than 60,0001. should be laid out for seed, believing that it might be more easily purchased by the government than by individuals, we have steadily refused to undertake the cultivation—the ploughing and the sowing of the land of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) Thus, also, while we have aug mented to a very small degree the sum which is applicable for the removal of emigrants, who may be in a destitute con dition, from Quebec to Montreal, and those other places further up the country, where their labour may be more in demand, we have refused to become responsible for the conduct and promotion of emigration generally from this country to the colonies. (Hear, heir.) In respect to many of these refusals, wo have been of opinion in the first place that the quantity of corn and provisions of all kinds would be greeter if the regular trade was not interfered with by the government, than if they, by any act of theirs, interfered with the purchase of supplies, and day by day I am con firmed in the correctness of that view. We hays been of opinion also that the cultivation of the land would have been impeded and ant promoted, had the government undertaken, by means of loans or gifts or public employment, to promote such cultivation. We are of opinion, likewise, that the number of emigrants from Irelandto the United States and the colonies will be more considerable if the government leave the emi grants to their own resources, or to the means that may be furnished to them by their friends or their landlords, than it would be were any large government grant for the pur pose proposed. Oa these topics I will de no more than state what have been our opinions and our conduct. But, with regard to another question, it has been thought that we have unduly interfered with the employment or the people, by devoting large sums in the shape of advances front the Trea sury, in order to furnish labour for the destitute people of Ireland. It is undoubtedly true that for this purpose the advances have been very great ; and I will now state what has been the amount up to the end of February, of the sums which have been expended on the relief works. In the months of September and October last, the amount so expended was 54,0001. and some odd hundreds; in Nov., it was 298,0001. and some odd hundreds; in December, 646,0001. and some odd hundreds ; in January this year it was 7313,0001 ; and in February the amount was 944,1411., independent of the expenses incurred through the commis sariat and other public departments for the same purpose. The number of persons employed upon these works has, during the lent month, very much increased. The number for the week ending the 6th of Febrnary, was 615,065 ; the 13th, 605,715 ; the 20th, 666,749 ; and for the week ending the 27th, 703,228. Now, on look ing back at the various proceedings, I am firmly persuaded that unless a very large outlay had been made from the national tremnry, very many of those persons who have been so employed and paid wages, must have died from want of the means of obtaining food. (Hear.) I think this very large outlay was justified, and is to be justified, by the great urgency of the case, and by the dread of allowing the num ber of persons, which unfortunately we know to have been very great who died from want of food, to be immensely and enormously increased. But while during the months of November, December, January, February, and the half of the month of March, which has gone by, we have continued these works on this great scale, we have never been insen sible to the milt attendant upon such employment, and which evils are at present, as the works have increased, more felt and considerably aggravated, as compared with what they were in the early part and middle of the winter. In the first place, the immense increase in the number of persona requiring employment —a number which has gone on increasing from 30,000 or 40,000 at the commencement, to 708,000—(hear)—has made it almost im possible for the Board of Works, however much they may have exerted themselves, and do exert themselves, to keep that due order and regularity which ought to be observed in public works (Hear.) Let me say, at the same time, that the degree to which order and regularity has been observed, is a matter not only of praise but of astonishment. (Hear.) This has been effected, in the first place, by the exertions of the officers of the Board of Works ; in the next place, by the exertions of the military officers, who have been acting under their authority; and last] by the exertions of the execu tive government of Ireland, and the military and constabulary at their disposal. The consequence of the exertions of these several departments and Alava has been, that with this enor mous increase in the number of people employed, though the regularity of the works has not been und ist urbed, it is impossible, where to many are employed, to say whether the due quantity of work has bean performed by each indi vidual, in the same way and with the some certainty as when • certain camb er of have under their superintendence a limited number of men. Yet, there has been no general • confusion in the progress of the works, and the regular pay ments have gone on from week to week, without any instance of the money destined for that purpose being Intercepted by pay-clerks or others employed in superietendine—without any instance of dishonesty or peculation—and without any Ware in the pa tof the men engaged. I make this es a general statement, not denying that there may hare been some exceptions, and it is a remit which, I think, is highly creditable to the various departments in In land which have had thrown upon them, without previous preparation, the conduct and management of this treat ma chine. (Hear.) But, sir, while one evil which we have ex perienced has been irregularity in the performance of the work, another has been that the men employed on these works, many of them from the want of due sustenance, have been physically unable to perform that amount of task-work whit should enable them to obtain ruflicient wages to pay for their food ; and the overseen end others placed over them, not wishing to compel them to perform tasks to which they were unequal, or, on the other hand, to make their payments insuffi cient to procure the food they require, hare reduced the amount of the task-work ; consequently the quantity of work performed has not been an equivalent for the money paid, and the cost of the labour has exceeded the value of the work. This again has led to every kind of irre gularity ; for while many could net perform the task assigned rem phyakel inability, others who were eige sod strew lore haw advantage of the lenity with whisk the perthureses ef With* work sraeinsieted on, in *dr, woes, to awe se kith litain—at ten and eleven o'clock in the morn ing, sisthowthid they as they Invest work on twain* they were not to be essithed to peelieular hours for nab. and going. But a further evil eta, and one which is Early islt at this seadloo, is aka spoken of by the i= kn et' Works in their report for the bet month. 1L whir lord reed the ibliesiag menet : Inn amiss must be made to smasentifelitirill•=t bet the polio 'Awe as rissibless, at eneent, to andl Be an omit wwh preetleable m sun ess essersaire tinm that tbe meets shish townie progress are selem•:::7lausi as re. if yob. Imployessei hem the ismer at immat , sewed in Isseenthe mensgegispell angle eneasemit of , tisk umbel. sea nerdy brimillsimig elleniel eh and we 'ease- ' Clirmend tali; es WI as berm wires liskseek km ksbeireillmesely se sem et alliavir wpm le Sas Ithe threw dos welary whose wsweel rah haw bets y Inessessd weft the tmemetigg amber if =ism or o w/am bissagm, MS is sees bun le. le Is SL thy. Iseeseetithile if these refeassfsessa, seerobstheed al tisy THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 13, 1847. speak of *harem against the government, for they are a fair target for such—(a laugh)—but charges !upshot the podia lie/nest and the people of Great Britain, who I must say, do not deserve them. (Hear, bear.) But, in the next place, I say that what I propose to you as a permanent law, is al ready • permanent law in England; a law which we in England have thought consistent with the wealth of the country, with the security of the country, and with every regard which is due to the property of the country. (Hear, hear.) We have for • long time past had a poor-law which provides not only for the sick, the infirm, and the impotent, but which likewise provides that the able-bodied shall be set to work, and thereby entitle himself to relief. Let it not be said that that poor-law, and the poor-rate levied under it, gave rise to abuses which have been continually complained of, because those abuses have been considered, and co ected to reform—a reform, as many think, very searching and stern-- and yet, in the 10 years after this law was made, England and Wales spent no leas than 49,000,0001. in relieving the poor of the country. (Hear.) And, as I believe, in the view no; only of humanity and of religious and moral duty, but upon a pure economical consideration of the wealth and security of the country—(hear, hear) —it was good economy to lay out that sum of money for such an object. (Hear, bear.) I have, here, various extracts from different reports, showing the number of persons who have received relief at various times under the poor-law of England, and I find that in 1840, the total number of paupers relieved was 1,194,000; in 1841, 1,299,000; and in 1842, 1,429,000, making 9 per cent. upon the population of the country. (Hear, hear.) Now the mode in which these numbers were increased, and the reason why they were increased, was this—that during those years we were visited witn deficient harvests, and had at the same time a number of peoplein wanted employment and ood. Immediately that that took place, relief and employment were provided by the poor-law unions in parishes, and the rates were enormously increased. I have here • statement, which I took from • speech of the hon. member for Bolton, in the year 1843 or 1843, in which he says, with regard to the mortality, that the number of persona who died in Leicestershire in 1039 was 1 in 48, and in 1840 it was 1 in 39 ; that in Nottingham shire the number in 1839 was I in 47, in 184011 was 1 in 35 and that in Lancashire the number in 1839 was 1 in 35, and in 1840 it was 1 in 31. But the poor-rate, which in 1835-6 and 7 had been 11,9001., rose in 1842 to 16,7401. That is the mode in which the English paor-law meets the destitution of this country in a year—l will not say of distress resembling that of Ireland, but of more than ordinary distress, and when there was • considerable want of employment and food. And what I pr pose to the booms, as re gards the future and permanent condition of Ireland, is this—that when from a good harvest and • tolerably fair amount of employment, that country sinks to a bed harvest and • deficiency of employment, the same mode and amount of relief may be given to the people as there is now given in England. I do not propose that there should be exactly the same measure for both countries, or that those parts of the law of England which I consider to have been connected with the abuses of the old law should be introduced into the new law for Ireland. I am of opinion, thsLin intro ducing this law, we plums a gre It advantage in hiving the workhouses already established. The abuses of the law in England took place when the workhouse test had been abandoned with the act of 1796. But we took care when we first introduced a poor-law into Ireland to esta blish workhouses ; and, therefore, the proprietors and guardians of the unions in reland will always have that test. They will be enabled to apply it, and to say, " if you are destitute, you shall be provided for in the workhouse." I cannot myself think when the infirm and aged are removed from the workhouses, that they are likely to be full, except in times of unusual distress; and in such times a power will be given to increase them—a power, which I think may be made useful as a check against im pactors and the demands of idly inclined persons. There is another part of this question which I do not like to touch in detail, but to which, nevertheless, I wish briefly to refer, as it forms with me a very eogent reason fur prening this bill upon the house. I quite admit that the present calamity has been so great that no attempt under the poor-law, with the popu lation which existed in Ireland at the commencement of 1846, would have been fully equal to meet the emergency. I do not believe it would. Most unfortunately for Irelind, by, as it were, the general connivance of landlord, tenant, and labourer, there has grown up in that country a miserably destitute population, and, added to that, an immense army of mendicants, whose number and frightful condition have been pourtrayed in the reports of the Commissioners, to which I have on other occasions called the attention of the house. I do not think, with such a state of population, and a considerable portion of them on the borders of famine, that such a ca lamity as has occurred, could have been met by the propri etors and gentry of Ireland with adequate measures of relief. But I must add to this, that although a great number of resident gentry have exercised their utmost energies, and have been content to forego their usual mode of living, and many of the expenses neresaary even for the education of their families, I do not think upon the whole, as a body, taking the residents and absentees, and every . person who has part of the 13,000,000!. of assessed property in Ireland, that their exertions have been what they ought to have been under the circumstances. (Hear.) I have collected this from the frequent statements that are made upon the subject—that si bile the resident gentry have munificently contributed their one, two, or three hundred pound., many of those to whom letters have been addressed have not contributed any thing. Upon that ground, in the first place, I say that property has not done all that it ought to have done. (Hear, hear.) I must also say that there are amongst the residents, persons who ought to go further in the way of contributions and of absti nence from those things which may be termed luxuries, than they have hitherto done. I will not say more on this point; but thus much I felt bound to say, for it pressed upon my mind, end I consider it to be a good reason, if such should be the impression of others as well, why we should not leave the destitute poor of Ireland in future to hazard and &mi. dent. (Hear.) I am told indeed thst with regard to some parts of Ireland the population is so great and the rental so inadequate to their subsistence, that property must altogether break down under the obligations which this law wit impose. I do not believe that that will be the ease. I believe in the capacity of the soil of Ireland, and in the wil lingness to labour on the part of the people of Ireland. (Hear, hoar.) I believe that the soil may be made far more productive, and the general produce much greater than what it now L. I confess that, as the matter now stands, the pay ments on account of the destitute poor must take a large pro portion of the rental which is obtained. But we cannot say that such is the case at present in Ireland, and I think we may at least attempt to give some further proportion than has been given of late yearn towards the support of the des titute poor in that country. (Hear, hear.) I find that in the year 1841, the expenditure for the relief and mainteasoce of the poor in England was 6,009,7031., being a rate of Is. 71d. in the pound. In Ire land, on the contrary, upon the annual value of rate able property of 13,204.2341., the expenditure for the poor was only 298,8131., being a rate of only 51d. Don't let any one suppose that I quote this as a reproach to persons .of property in Ireland, that they pay a rate under 6d. in the pound, because in doing so they only act in conformity with the law, and if they proposed to ' pay more, the poor-law cmantimioners would have told them that it could not be levied. But I do say, that there are those in Ireland who may be further assessed for the relief of the destitute poor, and on whom we may fairly call for that purpose. When that assessment becomes much larger it will be the time to show it is a greater burden than they can bear, but certainly this is not the moment they can justly urge such -• complaint. (Hear, bear.) With regard to a arum which has recently attracted a great deal of public attention—l mean the Union of Skihbereen —at the accounts of the deaths in which, and the number of persons approaching death from absolute starvation, every one has been shocked, • gentle man who called upon me gave me • letter from a resident in that union, in which he states that, although the rated pro perty in it was estimated, according to the assessment, at only 98,0001., the actual value of the property was 130,0001 • year ; that until last September there had been no rate exceeding 6d. in the pound ; that in that month a rata of 9d, in the pound had been made, but that that rate had been levied. (Hear, hear.) There is one instance; and in the corrsepondence before the house there are many others of wakes in which, even with the present law, there has not been that due assessment and lev ying of rates for the relief of the poor which those possessed d property are legally subject to. I ear then that those are reasons for enacting such • measure as I now pro pose (Land cries of " Hear.") I am aware that by such a bill, I propose to enact a law which differs, in a most impor tant respect, from that which is now considered to be the law Its Scotland. I believe that the law of Scotland, as enacted shortly after the revolution of 1688, did make a pro vision which would have been applicable to the able-bodied poor ; but the interpretvion put upon that law by the comree of justice, has confined it to the infirm and sick. -How ever, there has not been in Scotland in pest years, or even in the present year, any such case as should induce me to wish to alter or amend the act, which was introduced by the right hon. gentleman the member for Dorchester two year. ago. I believe that act is conformable to the habits of the Scottish people ; I believe there exists in Scotland such a union of all classes as induces them, in any period of distress, to give their utmost assistance to each other. I know that at the present moment many proprietors is Scotland have been nearly ruined by their age t efforts to save the people from starving. (Hear, hear.) I believe they do consider themselves under the °becalm, if not legally. at least morally, to use every exer tion to prevent or palliate destitution amongst the people. Is Ireland I think the law ought to be more conformable to that of England. I do not think the people of England would be safe if there was not a law in this country enti tling the able-bodied to relief. (Hear, hear.) I was much coocerned in the framing of the Poor-law Amendment Act of 1834; but I do not remember, at any time we were re. forming the law, that the government of the day ever con templated depriving the starving able-bodied poor from their claim to relief eat of the poor-rates of the country. I believe that that enactment is necessary for the peace and security of this country. I believe it will be found con ducive to the peace and security of Ireland as well. (Hear, hear.) We must expect a great change as soon as other culture shall take the place of that of the potato. We must expect that many of those who have had little holdings, to which they were attached on account of the crop of potatoes they yielded, will assume the position of able-bodied labourers, and will from time to time be thrown into • state of destitution. I believe that such a law as I now propose will induce the proprietors and farmers to give, in consequence, a greater quantity of em ployment than they otherwise would do. I believe that when they see that thnen man mast be maintained, they will say to themselves that tney are fine able-bodied fellows, whose labour might be made productive, and that they would prefer finding labour for them to maintaiaing them out of the pear-rates. In this way I coalmine bins imaussall employment will be given to the able-bedied pagmllaiina of the country. (Hear, hear.) There an sum Vim show lions which we propelsie latreiestee, best to whiek I need scarcely allude _ _One d than ken sald, pragnead in Ireland, as it pawl whoa I dead It In Mt house, considerable dientisfaction—l mew the proposal that one-half of the whole body of guardians should be formed of magistrates being ex-officio guardians,—l think that this feeling is founded on the old belief, to which I see one of the Roman Catholic bishops in Ireland still cline, that those who are in the position of magistrates are hostile to the religious rights and political freedom of their fellow ' rountr4 men. If I thought that such a feeling was to con tinue, if I thought that the body of magistrates in the coun try holding property were always to be considered by the farmers and labourers as their enemies, I should doubt very much of the propriety of placing on the board of guardians en equal number of the two clines. But I bAieve we arc on the eve of a very great change in Ireland ; and I think that the resolution to which I referred in the early part of my address this evening, adopted at a meeting that took place in Ireland, together with the accounts which I hear nom time to time of the 00-operation of the clergy of all persuasions, are symptoms of that great change. (Cheers.) I think the Protestant claws boils be Engla al and Ireland were for a long time the adverbs of supremacy and exclusion. But the Protestant dean be England had no adversary to deal with, while the Preesseme classes in Ireland were brought into immediate collides with, the moat numerous portion of their fellow-countrymen. Sentiments of ill-will grew up between the two—the airs endeavouring to maintain that which they considered the due attribute of a pre.emineoce gained at the expulsion of the Stuarts, and which at the same time they oonsideenil as a security for the permanence co tne constitution of those realms—the others lass [oinking, at I believe most justly, thee they were entitled to equal privileges in the land of gado birth, and that no other class ought to claim privileges sr monopolies of any kind to their prejudice. (Hear, bac) But I trust that these queetiene—most of them elm* solved—are all on their way to solution, not only by legion 'tive enactment, but by the influence of popular and national feeling. (Hear, heir.) I should despair of the working of this or any other bill, if I were to suppose that class was to be against class, and clergy against clergy, in the manner Is which they have been in omit time.. But I do hope, although the transition may be accompanied with some re-action, that we are in course of transition towards those times, when Li the Irish will set together for the benefit of Ireland, and when they will all acknowledge that we in England have no wish to debar them from any prints% , or right, or any object of ambition which naturally their due. (" Hear, hear," and cheers.) — And undoubtedly, judging from those symptorws,we may hops that, whether es regards ex-offleio guardians or any other relation of society, we shall see Protestant and Catholic, we shall see Tory and Whig, Radial and Repealer differi . !Elin no doubt they will in future times, on political qu yet blend together in social harmony, end eonsbineli for the common and usual, yet most important, business of life ; in the functions of the administration of justice, in the forwarding of public works, in advancing agricultural improvement, in the relief of the destitute, and in all such social acts, as if they were one nation and without such dis tinctions as would make ens bear ill will to another. (Loud cheers.) It is with this hope, and aot with a view to ass premacy of party among the ex-officio guardians, thetl proposed We clause in the bill. I have now explained views of the government with regard to this bill. It insmitted the other night that there are in the cabinet two eagle= Irish proprietors, end their names were meth Sal di was supposed that they had influenced ita vourably to property in that mosey, and camel on wise bias towards the claims of landed proprietors. They me parties with us in proposing this bill. (Hear, hear.) If it imposes burdens on the proprietors of land in Ireland, they have added the weight of their authority to its incredulities. and they are prepared to bear Unburdens which it hopes Upon that authority therefore, and in the name at the epo vernment to which I belong, I propose this bill, and ask yea to go live committee upon it. (Loud cheers.) Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN said that the srech of the noble lord war divided into two parts; first, as to wire had been dose, and next, what would be done by this IW. He (Mr. O'Brien) had taken his share in the set midi passed at the end of last sesasion, but these we two great errors with reference to that megewszei. When the noble lord advised the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland to deviate from the provisions of that bill, (by which counsel he admitted the failure) be mess's& the powers of • minister, and he had to come to der an indemnity, which was readily granted. WLt be (Kr. O'Brien) complained of was, that when the goverment found that act bad failed, they refused to listen to the advise of those who were conversant with the internal affairs of Ireland. If theorem of taxstion had been made smaller, there would not have been half the number of persona on the public works,—hundreds of acres would have been gm which were now barren, and the money far better experied. a. had, however, listened in vain to the speech of the =hie lied for the promise of a smaller territorial division. The sett error committed by the noble lord with referent* to that measure was one indicated by the question asked by Colonel Jones, Who are the labouring poor ? That shoeM first be ascertained, and everything will depend on the ant has to whom relief is to be granted." No answer wee Is this until the 23rd October, and then came Mr. lesee circular with reference to the 61. rate. This yes & meet error: With regard to the bill now before the house, he must say, that in the main, he cordially agreed in what had been said by the noble lord with regard to out-deoe relief. Looking to the circumstances in which Ireland sass placed be thought that great experiment must be tried, and he was prepared to support it. But the noble lord could not exaggerate the alarm and anxiety on this subject which was felt in Ireland, not by those whom he might sup pose, but be philanthropic and charitable persons who be lieved that it would ateorb property without relieving dis tress. The noble lord at the head of the government had stated his conviction that the principle of out-door re lief must be applied to Ireland ; and he (Mr. O'Brien) agreed with him. The noble lord also was of opinion that the constitution of the boards of guardians should be al tered, ea that one-half of them should he exsfzeio guardians as justices of the peace. lie (Mr. O'Brien) thought this was of the greatest possible advantage, and that the poor would find the greatest benefit from it. The noble lord had said that the exertions cf thew who were possessed of property had not been whet thee should have been in such a crisis. He (Mr. O'Brien) did not think they had been either; but still he would say that they had no right to try the landlords of Ireland by the Labour-rate Act. When the area of taxation was made so large, the landlord was alarmed, and thought he saw ruin staring him in the fen; and what wee stated by the Roman Catholic prelate alluded to by the nobie lord, was perfectly true, that when the good and bad the resident on his property, end the absentee, wee up together, and were called together in baronies, the popu lation of those who were absent attended in greater numbers than the others. Those to whom the ales of the starving people should be addressed, wen at Hoene and at Naples; while those who remained at home and did their duty, baud it impossible to come forward and improve their estates es they would if the area of taxation had been smaller. Thatwoold be the difficulty which would have to be met whatever tbey legislated for Ireland; for it went to the root of like triode matter. While it would be easy to swamp the property of Ireland, it would not be easy to put an end to pauperne• He would urge the noble lard at the head of the government to leave the question of the territorial divisions of Ireland u they were at present, and not to consider this bill as a final measure, with reference to the area of taxation ; but rather let the noble lord, either later in the present, or early next session, invite the attention of the house to the conduct of the various boards of guardians, and the resolutions recently ' presented to him by noblemen and gentlemen connected with Ireland ; and, omitting now the 10th clause wholly from the bill, reserve the wh o le question of territorial divi sion for future consideration. (Hew.) If the noble lord . would leave the matter to the commissioners, or the Board of Guardian§ or those who had property in Ireland, he (Mr. Stafford O'Brien) should be satisfied ; but if the noble lord proceeded against the expressed opinions and wishes of all those bodies, he would take upon himself a moot merinos responsibility. Let the noble lord make. if he chose, • national rating, and pay the poor of both countries out of a general fund, but, between that course and the principle h urging, there was no medians. (Hear, bear, hear.) asked was, that no one should be allowed to starve is Ire land, and for this he did not ask parliament to give anything to Ireland, except to extend the principle of relief, and to give to the magistracy pawns which they did not at present, but which they ought to peones. By an extension of the principle of relief, a feeling of self-reliance on their own energies would be created amongst the people of Ireland, which, though much talked of both by the present and past governments, had been excited. In the noble lord's hand., therefore, he left the 10th clause without discussing it, and he trusted that by a softening of all permanent good might result to Ireland from the a visitation with which it had pleased Almighty God to visit that country. (Hear, hear.) Mr. P. SCROPE thought the hon. member who had just eat down might well have spared the house a dis cussion upon the question of electoral divisions until they had arrived M committee at the 10th clause. With re ference to the question of out-door relief to the able bodied, he (Mr. P. &rope) must expesas the deep and heartfelt gratification with which he had listened to the declaration on that point conveyed in the speech of his noble friend at the head of the government—a declaration which he was sure would find an echo in every part of Great Britain, and in a great portion of Ireland. The time had arrived when the people of England thought that Ireland ought to bear local taxation for the support of her own poor, for they knew from experience that with them the system had led to the development of her resources of industry and wealth. Early in the time of Elizabeth, England was but another Tipperary. Agrarian outrages prevailed, crime reigned, arable land was turned into pasture, and the people drivento wander on the face of the mirth. The itateeinee, how ever, of that daT adapted the simple remedy of giving to every honest, industrious man, who was able and willing to labour, the certainty of not being reduced to starvation, if he had not the means of earning his livelihood by hon est employ ment. Enact such a randy for Ireland now, and crime would be got rid of; there would be no further necessity for coercion bills ; energy and capital would find their way into the country, and develop the resources with whieh deuce had blessed it. But the question assumed still greater importance, when the present condition of Ireland was con sidered. Large numbers of Malt poor were continually locating themselves in this country—thus increasing poor. rates in England. Without questioning the right of the Irish poor to settle in this country, the maintenance of the existing laws was unjust, not only to the inhabitants of Ireland, but to those of England, whose earnings were by this means reduced. The evil was just now seriously aggravated by the extraordinary proceedings going on in Ireland, for the purpose of clearing estates on a large scale by mean, of ejectments and civil bill processes. In such circumstances, was it not, above all things, needful to remove that difference between the laws of th e two countries which led to this growing evil ? Under the influence of such a law as was now proposed, it might fairly be hoped that the population would be raised to a condition of comparative comfort. At present, the date of agriculture in Ireland was mast lamentable; everywhere the drainage was neglected, and there was the most obvious want of farm buildings in every direction. This was confirmed by the highest authorities. It wunselmrsto talk of emigration until the unemployed labour wurightly di reAed ; and then it would be seen whether there was really any surplus of labour. In this statement he entirely em curred, fully believing that ample and profitable employ ment might be found for the Irish labourers in Ireland it self. One condition of out-door relief, if Its understand aright the provisions of this bill, war that such relief should not be given till the workhouses were full This, he feared, I would operate injuriously, unless a discretionary power wan ex tended to the guardians to afford relief in cases of great exi gency. Another objection to the bill uit stood was, that while recognising the right to out door-door relief, there did not appear to be any means provided for rendering that right available. A stringent law for com pelling relief, in cases of destitution, was necessary in Ireland, much more than for this country, where the principle of parochial relief had been recognised for centuries. In the hope that the various riagge.tions which he had thrown out would he favourably considered by the noble lord at the head of the government, and that the bill would be amended accordingly, he would conclude by con ' gratulating the house and the country on the prospect which at length presented itself of the people of Ireland being I rescued from their present deplorable condition. Mr. GREGORY said that the English poor-law, in recognising the right to out-door relief on the part of the able-bodied poor, had only gone to the extent of authorising that relief till such time as the pauper could be set to work ; and he was persuaded that the measure now proposed, by recognising, at one stroke of the pen, the right to relief and 1 the right to be set to work, would produce the most lament : able resuhs. What had the right to relief and the setting to work done for Ireland during the last eighteen months ? The bungling operation of the Labour Rate Act could not be urged as a reason why the principle had not worked bene ficially • for in every put of the country presentmentsessiona had been hastily convened, and money had been unsparingly voted for giving employment to the destitute on the public works. I t tended to nothing but confusion,such confusion as had been exhibited at presentment sessions in Ireland lately. It had also induced persons having money in savings' banks in Ireland, and having plenty to support themselves, to rash to seek for employment on the public works. It had also led men to leave works on private property, and to leave agricultural employment, to work under the Labour-rate Act. On his calculation, if all those who would be entitled to support under this act were sup : plied with it, 11,375,0001. would be found necessary ' for that purpose. That was nearly double the real income of Ireland. It was on account of the character and dispo sition of the people of Ireland, and not through any disposition to shrink from the imposition placed on them to support the poor, that he opposed this system. They were ready to submit to a posor-law test , they were prepared to have their property taxed for the purpose of affording an in• creased workhouse communication between themselves and the poor, but they begged that they might not have inflicted upon them a bill which would injure the poor more than the rich. Mr. D. BROWNE differed with the member for Northamp tonshire, who stated that it was his wish that the English poor law should be extended to Ireland. He agreed with the hon. member for Northamptonshire, for he believed that the present measure woo not sufficiently comprehensive. It was not a full and efficient remedy for the exuding distress. The government in introducing this bill were influenced by two parties the people of England who were of opinion that the land of Ireland ought to supprt the people, and the Irish landlords who wished to escape the responsibilities to which their posemsions made them liable. It woe the inten tion of this bill that those who possessed more this an sere of land should not be relieved. It so happened that in many cues in Ireland those who possessed three or four acres of land were as little removed from destitution as those who possessed only one. This generally arose out of the tyranny of the Irish landlords, such tyranny as was unequalled in any country in the world. He objected to tli's bill because it increased the number of ex-officio guardians, and he was sure that the Secretary for Ireland, or her Majesty's Resentment, never intro duced a principle which would be nets unpopular. He was sorry that the bill touched the sheerest principle, and he hoped the Irish members would make a stand against this clause. He did not agree with rating electoral divisions. If he adopted the principle at all, he would take the smaller territorial divisions suggested by the hon. member for North amptonshire (Mr. Stafford O'Brien). He thought it was ad visable to make property, as much as possible, responsible for the burden of its individual distress ; but the system of rating divisions would induce guardians to refuse relief. Outdoor relief was desirable; but be would have out door labour es a test, and nothing could be more advantageous for this purpose than the bill of the government for reclaiming waste lands. Capt. BATESON gave the government credit for the best intentions towards Ireland, but he opposed the principle of out-door relief to the able-bodied. Sir W.MOLES ORTH said that the hen . member who bad ! just addressed the house considered that if outdoor relief was given to Irish paupers the landlords would be rained, and that he opposed any poor law having such an object. He would ask for what purpose was the Irish poor law originally instituted? ! According to the report of the Poor-law Commissioners the object of the Poor law was to make provision for the relief of the destitute in Ireland, and it was expected that by so doing agrarian outrages would be put an end to, that mendi cancy aces vagrancy would gradually diminish, and that the people would be socially and morally improved. Had these results been attained ? They had not ; and though Ireland had exported 2,000,000 quarters of grain and 1,000,000 head of cattle, which was enough for the support of 2,000,000 of persons for a year, and though the deposits in the saving's banks had increased, a large portion of the population would perish but for the aid of England. (Hear, hear.) There fore the present Poor-law in Ireland appeared to hint to be inefficient. In order to relieve the destitute in Ireland to the same extent as was done in England, the amount of workhouse accommodation should be increased fourfold, and this would be insufficient if those who received out-door relief in England were to receive in-door relief in Ireland. He did not think that relief should be given to the able-bodied except when the workhouse was full, and then only under very pressing circumstances. Then came the question, whether Irish property should not he bound to support the destitution of Ireland. In England they were bound to support the poor, even if I the whole of their rental was eaten up. (Hear, hear.) They did not complain, or murmur, or threaten, but they expected that a similar obligation would be imposed on the possessors of Irish property. (Hear, hear.) The question wig, were the people of Ireland to perish by starvation, or was it expected that the people of England should sup port them ? (Hear, hear.) Men would not starve as long as the means of living could be obtained by force or fraud. They would wage war againet society and the laws in order toilet. It was at one time attempted to put down destitution in England by force, and it was said that seventy thousand paupers were hung in the reign of Henry Vlll.,but the attempt failed, and in the reign of Elisabeth the prin ciple of a poor-law was adopted. As lam as an efficient poor-law was withheld from Ireland, agrarian outrages, men dicancy, anffivagrancy would subsist, and no coercion bills or penal laws would paten end to them. The people ought to have a right to relief. Who was to pay for that relief-England or Ireland ? The alternative was au efficient poor-law fur Ire land or apermanent drain upon England, foras had been well said, the wave of Irish distitution that broke on the western coast of England would flow over the entire country. He would conclude by observing that there were two pro blems to be solved with regard to Ireland, neither of which could be solved separately ; the one was, to induce the able bodied Irishman to desire steady and continuous employ ment the other was to afford him that steady and continu ous employment. He believed that the means he had pointed out would tend to attain these ends, but the Irish proprietors were the persons who must exert themselves to carry them out. (Hear, hear.) It was on their exertions that everything must depend, and there was much for them to do. It was said that they were merely the nominal owners of their estates ; in act:bank rupts. If that were the fact, they were a CMS to their country and to their order. They most be got rid of, their effects meld off like those of bankrupt shopkeepers, and their property transferred to hands which might be expected ' efficiently to work it. (Hear, bear.) The salvation of Ireland could only be worked out by Irish proprietor., and if the present race were unequal to the task, a more efficient one must be substituted. If they put their hands brevel to the work, much good might be done, but if they were fain I or epithetic May God help them, for man cannot." Mr. SHAW had been so mt . , te the eatery rased against the government on megsent Kalmar lingisimry relief measures. He lied felt that their negisenigabi le open to objections on principle; and be alms f allowance should be made for measures 110 meet a sudden ' and trying emergency. has eer — =, ). But he could not make the same allowing' tor the permanent measurel which the noble lord had that evening introduced, either as to the time of its introduction, or the principle of outdoor relief to the able-bodied which formed its beair. He believed that the present was the first time in which the noble lord had come forward to advocate such a principle, and that he did so spinet his own judgment, as he certainly did against his own recorded opinions. It was a breach of faith towards those who had supported the original Irish poise law, and was in contradiction to the principle of the English act, which contemplated doing away as soon as possible with all out door relief to the able-bodied. (Hear, bear.) He deprecated the introduction of this measure at • time like the present, when there was so strong a feeling 'mani fested against Ireland in this country. (Oh, oh !) He ad mitted that the pecuniary contributions raised in England for the relief of Irish distress were generous, were munifi cent, but at the same time the langange of the press of this country, the toss of legislation for Ireland, the language of many of the English members, exhibited a spirit most ad verse to the Irish landlords and to the Irish people, and were eminently calculated to sow dissension and ill will between these two portions of the United Empire. The right hon. member then read various extracts from the rinses. *mailing the Irish landlords, and one from the Tablet, which spoke of the ruin of the landlords of Ireland—whom it denounced " the Spawn of Chaos and Old Night," as a consemntation mast devoutly to be wished, es the only effectual remedy for the evil* of that country. (Herr, hear.) Those who were so ready with their denunciations of the Irish landlords, would find that the men of that body would immediately demoralise and impoverish the country to an infinitely greater extent than had been ever yet known, and would send thousands and thousands more paupers over into England. When the proper period arrived he should oppose the enactment of out-door relief in Ireland by every means in his power. Mr. ELLICE saw no other means of providing for Irish destitution out of Irish property, than the means proposed by hie noble friend, or some miens very nearly resembling them. He deprecated the gentlemen had endeavoured to prove the existence in the people of this country, and in parliament, of a feeling hostile to Ireland, on the authority of journals whose views on th ho i u s ee su , b o i r ec ou t twoefreit.litTtlheesbsrMethetdbboyn.mpeenntorlen.2meeThutedYte' n'tlitakths that the measure was founded on prejudices ag a te Irish landlords. If there were some feeling of that kei; would the right hon. gentleman tell him that there wale s ground for suepicion with respect to the conduct of Irish landlords amidst the distress of their country > (g ar hear.) It was a very convenient distinction y n which was drawn between resident and non-me. dent proprietors. (Hear, hear, hear.) The public of lei country looked to Irish proprietors as a whole, mg they had a right to expect from them the fulfilme nt of their duties in the same manner as the English and eag l e proprietors performed theirs. ( Hear hear.) The pee*, e y England looked for some stringent measure to relieve Ma e from the eternally recurring pressure of the paupenes of I of Ireland. His own constituents sometime paid as madam 20s. in the pound for pours'-rates. and in a aelete, • bouring county Lord Hood had paid 40e. an twee Mr f L his lend. The old system in Ireland had gone on keg enough, and they were now asked to re sor t to a new e • remedy for this state of things.. It was not, se th e r i g h t m a. gentlemen supposed, that there was any bitter and ed. venomed feeling towards a particular class of landlords in Ireland ; hut besides contributing to the relief of Ireland they found, on looking to its capitol, to Bethnal-green, and to Sthtland, that in some cases half, and in others three fourths, of the rates were, in fact, levied for the relief of Irish destitution. (Hear, hear.) He believed the public would learn with sincere gratitude the statement made by his noble friend (Lord J. Russell), that evening, of the ds. termination of a united cabinet to carry this measure as part of their policy towards Ireland. Rumours had bees circulated impugning the sincerity of the cabinet ea that subject; and he was glad to find that they meant to persevere with a measure which, free, the date of its passing, would, he believed, commence the regeneration of Ireland. The measure, though not peen; was yet • great step towards a better state of things. As ea gardens the question of rating, he thought it was impo ss ibl e to lay down an invariable rule. Probably it would be nests. nary to have one rule with respect to great towns, soother with respect to small towns in rural districts, and a tlurg with respect to rural districts alone; and in any diets)* made it would not be fair to unite a praiseworthy propnWar to one who had totally neglected his property. Ile had differed from the right hon. baronet, the member es, Dorchester (Sir James Graham) when he refused le introduce the principle of out-door relief into Scotland bat he was satisfied with the working of the commission. The principle of the ancient poor-law of Scotland was, that every man out of employment had a right to demand from dm heritor labour for food. He felt satisfied that the right non. gentleman was in error in " ascribing" this measure M any feeling of hostility to Irish landlords ; it was entirely owing to • resolution on the part of this country whit* would compel, even in an unwilling government, to provide measures by which the destitution of Ireland should be pre viied for out of the property of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) Notwithstanding all the complaiets which they had hear{ no gentleman hail told them by what other plan the object was to be effected—(hear, hear)—and until he heard some better plan proposed, he should give the measure his earnest and strenuous support. Sir B. HALL contended that the time had arrived what it was absolutely necessary to pan an effective poor-law ire Ireland. Re had been challenged to name the cases it • which the Irish landlords had neglected their duty. Be apprehended that the various Boards of Guardians were to a great extent composed of landlords, and in a great measure represented the feelings and opinions of that clam ; but so far from the Boards of Guardians having done their duty in administering the pew law, they had evinced a thorough disinclination to put that law into practice, or to levy rates fur the relief of the poor. The Poor-law Commissioner?, in their 12th report, stated the very great difficulty they had had in inducing the guar dians of the Clifden Union to open their workhouse ; and in the unions of Westport, Castlereagh, and Roscommon, the Commissioners had been compelled to take hip against the guardians in the Court of efu= Bench before they would open the workhouse, eg levy • rate, and in several unions no more than one rate Mil been levied since the passing of the act. Aa showing the comparative amount contributed by the landlords of Rag land and those of Ireland, he would refer to a return from which it appeared that in the seven first counties in England, taken alphabetically, beginning at Bedfordshire and ending at Glotheitershire, with a population of 3,154,185, and pro perty assessed to the poor -rate at 13,653,336/. in value, the amount actually levied for the relief of the pee was 1,169,3761., being ten per cent. on the whale rateable value, and the number of paupers relieved amounted to 9 per cent. on the population • while in 130 mien • in Ireland, with • population of 8,174 , 0 00, and a rateable value of 13,204,2341., the amount actually levied was only 298,8131., or two-and-a-quarter per cent., and the number of I paupers relieved was but one-and-a-half per cent. on the population. Alluding to the distress in Mallow, he said thatit appeared that the Rev. R. Cotter gave no leases, and nothiag for drainage, and that when he was asked to contribute to his tenantry, he said be had nothing to give his tenants, bet wanted everything from them. There was a Mr. Courtenay, a landlord with many thousands a-year at Mallow. His munificent contribution for the poor was 2/., although he kept a pack of hounds with meal and new milk so luxuri ously, that the poor people were accustomed to say, "it ' would be well if we were Mr Courtenay's dogs." 4 There was, however, one bright exception to the use of the Mallow landlords generally. Mr. Col. Gardiner, who had l no land, but only • mortgage of 1,0001. in the county, gave 501., a whole year's income from the same, to the relief of the Mallow poor; and hie servants, in order to set a good example, gave 241. Well, then, there was the case of Hanturk. With the exception of one landlord, Sir Edward Tierney, who had given 100/., there was not one who had given anything worth mentioning. A Mr. Longfield, with 8,0001. • year. had given 15/. ; Mr. Purcell, with 2,000/. • year, 51. ; a Mr. Mahey, with 1,5001. a year, M.; another Mr. Mahey, with 6001. • year, 61.; and the other landed pro prietors, having 13,600/. altogether, gave in the whole 251. This was nothing new. Swift, in 1720, described the land owners of Ireland as grinding the people to the duet ; and in 1823, a century afterwards, Dr. Doyle described • very numerous class of Irish landlords, known by the term " squireens," as men possessing much pride and little pro perty, extremely ignorant, bigoted, and dishonest, to whom you could not trust your honour nor I your puree, having little regard for the sanctity t of an oath, promoters of religious animosity, ever ready, through the medium of grand jury jobs and otherwise, ' to lay on taxes from which they might them selves benefit, in short, the scourge of the country. In common with his noble friend at the heed of the govern ment, he (Sir B. Hall) saw a cloud at present over Ireland, but still he did not despair: be believed if his noble bind received on this occasion the support of his warmest friends —if he received the forbearance or assistance of there honourable members opposite, who on certain questions won his political opponents, but who at this great crisis would, '- he hoped, join those on his (Sir B. Hall's) aide of the house —his noble friend, by his own good sense, aided by the moral courage which had characterised his whole career, would be able to surmount tits difficulties of this great task by the putting of this bill. Whatever, however, might be the a resu g h, he (Sir B. Hall) was firmly example ~c 4 ontheptrto co of th n e vinced wzadi that of Ireland, and the manifestation by them of a determine. . I Mon to ameliorate the condition of their peaeantry, and ea I anxious desire to identify their interests with their owa, would tend more to improve that country . than any let of parliament, whether it emanated from an imperial or ad*. acetic legislature. (Cheers.) On the motion of Sr W. CLLY, the debate was then ad journed to Monday next._ _ - DRAINAGE OF LAND BILL. ....... The report on this bill having been brought up, Sir G. GREY stated that the government had determined to fix the maximum of advances to be made under this bill at 10,0001. Capt. GORDON expressed his deep regret at the tonne the government had decided upon in this respect. Sir J. GRAHAM felt bound to say that the government was entitled to the highest credit for their departure from a rule which would have advantaged a few individuals of great influence and power, instead of erten& in the benefit of this bill to the many. The clause was thin, on the motion of Sir G. Gate, amended, by altering the maximum advance from 16,0001. to the sum of 10,000/. The clause, as amended, wee agreed to. An additional clause, referring to the form of applinkus to be made for loans, was introduced by Vi s co u nt Hoarsest, and agreed to.—The bill to be read a third time on Monday. The house adjourned at a few minutes after one o'clock. gite — e-pairtoo. MAILS. The ea•Da he slim 2 ileas, Madeira. cad* and Gibraltar, will to mob en the et the 17th *MIL 1 DI owelorn stain fat Maltn,Onen. I I Ulm "t Ades. OW/IN IllehrieSain e r Calm Ms Seellemplelle mab up es the reirmisretihe at Mesa. The embed lismeriles. b thi Mellhereama. =la" Oadma dL adis. Ker r in., will be OMB thi Mew The mile ter Sew OM* 1 MO. V Illemeree Lod, led Nee ZOMBI ell be Erb open lheeembei at the Slat March. The W Taft 41Eskilog lbws ke Mexico, licederre. sad the He anesih lbe mid op es the merely ot the 31.1 Marsh The nude he Drilla Berth Bueasde, sod the Wet States, MS be mole op ea the saab(t the id April. The mile tar the limas the !Mee raft, Mame Video. reform' =Mo. liohelm mad Beam Ayres, WI be muds Spa tM er Me Mb April. LONDON, SATURDAY, MARCH 13. In the House of Lords yesterday, the Earl of RIPON presented a petition from the Chairman of the Oxford and Birmingham Rail way Company, complaining of the eonduct of the North Western Company, in having taken a course, the object of which was, to frustrate the rep lotion of last session with reference to competing lines to Birmingham. After a conversation, the fur ther discussion of the subject was postponed until Tuesday next, on which day Lord LYNDHURST gavis notice he should move that the petition be referred to • select committee. Lord BROUGHAM, in preserduig a petition from Bradford complaining of the in flux of Irish paupers, reiterated the asser tion that Irish landlords had paid them half a-crown a piece to come over to invade En- gland, and his advice to the authorities of the towns thus invaded had been, to give each pauper another half-crown to enable him to return to the place from whence he came. The Earl of DSTON did not believe 4 0