The Express. — London, England, 1853-04-29 00:00:00

IMPEItIAL PARLIAMENT. NOUSE OF LORD&—TarupAy, APRIL: 28. The Leap Cmaxcaz.Los teak Ida seat at 5 o'clock. PETITIONS PRISENTED, DIXAIIILITIZ/I BILL—By the Esrl of ENNIS KILLEN, from Bradford; the Earl of DERBY, from 93 gloms; the Earl of SHAFTESBC,ItY, trona five places ; and the Bishop of OXFORD, from the Dean and Chapter tet Weetmiaster ; against.' MAIN.)4.III.—By the Earl of DERBY, from several places, against. 01.11,11,10 P•LACI Bt'NUA.YIII.—By the Marl of DERBY, from several places; and the Earl of BIIAFTESBt:EY, from nine Pleems against,: (C•NADIL) BILL .— By the Earl of DERBY, from Stirling, Lialitlagow, Ross, Ediuburgb, and other places in Soothed, against. THE ROYAL ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS. The Duke of NORFOLK. (E.rl Marshai) appeared in uniform, and read Mr Majesty's most gracious answer, thanking their lordships for their loyal and uutiful address of congratulation on the birth of a prince. CLERGY RESERVES (CANADA) BILL. The Earl of DERBY, on presenting petitions against this bill, said that after the lengthened it-hate, still entertaining all the objections which he had held to the bill, ant seeing all the injury which might result from it, be did not intend to give their lordships soy further trouble about it, or to seek to alter th.• determination to which they had arrived on the subject. (hear, hear ) On the motion that the bill be read a third time, The Earl of WICKLOW said that when the bill wee in troduced it contained another clause which repealed the guarantee clause of the constitutional act of 1840. On going Into committee in the other house, a noble lord who had charge of the bill said that there wit a contract implied as to that clause which subsequently was introduced by Sir R. Peel to satisfy the scruples of the Archhishop of Canterbury. The best supporters of the government objected to this 3rd clause and divided the house upon it; but the government carried it against their friend,. A right hon. gentleman contended that the removal of the clause would be unjust; and upon the third reading the noble lord said that he had consulted the officers of the crown, and had discovered that the clause would be Inoperative. tinder those circum stances the right hon. gentleman withdrew his opposition, and the bill came up to their lordships' house with the 3rd clause omitted. The noble duke, us moving the second reading of the bill, said he considered that the clause in the act of 1810 continued in force as much an ever. If that were so, there appeared to be some discrepancy between the noble duke and the noble lord in the other house. The de ficiency would be but small, 7,700!. fur the church of Eng land and 11401. for the church of Scotlaed, but he waked to know if the bill before the house was read a third time, would the Consolidated Fund be responsible for the deld ciency that might take place in the Canada clergy reserves ? Perhaps it would bo better to take the opinion of the judges on the subject. Lord REDESDALE wished to know whether the noble duke would have any objection to the introduction of a clause into the bill to put the rights and dues of the church of Rome on the same footing, with regard to the protection afforded by the set of 1840, as the clergy reserves would have under this bill. He should be glad to see each a clause introduced into the bill, although he did not want to make it • party question. Suppose in the nest session of the legislature of Canada, a proposition should be made for the secularisation of the protestant clergy reserves, the best way of meeting such a proposition would be to move to ex tend the same provision to the dues and rights of the church of Rome, and that those dues and rights should stand in the same position as the protestant church. This would be but just, inasmuch as the tithes were taken from the pro testant church, on the ground that the clergy reserves were to supple the place of those tithes. The Duke of NEWCASTLE said that with regard to the question put to him by the noble earl, he thought he should be able to satisfy him that he war under a stoma motion as to what had fallen from his noble friend in the other house of parliament, and that there was no discre pancy at all between his statement on the third reading of the bill in that house and the statement which be (the Duke of Newcastle) had made to their lordships on the woad reading of the bill in that house. Ile th 'light there was some misapprehension as to the clause in the Act of 1840, and he believed it would be as applicable if they omitted the clause which was originally in the present bill. The statement which he made on the second reading was that which he believed to be correct, and he would then repeat it; it was that the guarantee clause introdueed into the act et 1840 would have precisely the same power and effect, so far as legislation was tow cemed, after the passing of this bill, as it had at the present moment, except so far as in the minds of any individual members of their lordships' house who might consider then was a renter probability of the secularisation of these re serves by the legislature of Canada than there would have been by the imperial legislature. The clause was intro duced by him' originally under the apprehension which seemed now U . prevail with his noble friend, namely, that when it was originally introduced by the Archhishop of Canterbury, there was no chance of the fonds falling be low the amount specified by that guarantee. But such was net, it was perfectly clear, the apprehension of the moat reverend prelate at that time, otherwise for what purpose was that guarantee introduced ? It was introduced under the masanprehension, that by some means, possibly the mismanagement of the property, the funds might fall below the specified amount then remised. No other possibility was contemplated when that guarantee was introduced ; and upon ascertaining the circumstances ander which that guarantee was introduced, and that there was that apprehension at that time, the government came to the conclusion that it would be wrong by specific mut meet to repeal the guarantee, which was considered a nur sery and valid security against a sudden deficiency. Against that contingency that guarantee would be r effec tive now, if this bill passed without the clause omitted in the other house of parliament, as it would be under any circumstances whatever (the clergy reserves remaining on the same footles as at present, with this exception, that the authority . over them will be given to the legislature of Canada Instead of the Imperial Parliament)—the clergy reserve., remaining is the same position, that gua rantee would have the masa, mod no other, effect if the fund should fall below that amount. But, by the opinion given by the law Wines of the croons, if those reserves should ever be emalashod. lbereby nativist; the condition on which that _golonness was given then un doubtedly with those eamilibms the gmermase itself would fall, and the funds of this oweatay_ 7111.1111 met be memorable in the shape in which We noble sappensd. In the event of the reserves being isambritsd, Owe would under the set of IMO, M as Mager say seessfey St 4. Sllency being made up km the ha& at this easalay t neither would there, if the was coat loc k Cr wader Ss opera tion of the act of the imperial! . As to the ques tion which had Men petto him his noble friend opposite, he certainly sheep *Web Is thr et way words into this bill weds as he semimmeadlumly sad tre Sew sob ions: in the Int piss, he thought that the elle& of this bill, and the enactment of it, wen et soaks character that it would not be desirable to faredmia into it what he might sag alien metier. Hs was most &boss that this Ili sloop ge Se the *drag et Commis as s less sambned by thio eseatry at tbeir regales, sod as a bora earning Lesto that saw. He shoal& greatly regret its bin t:red by any oe which, ma the ems head, might :Slto set ass dent et raligiesisto sabot another ; sad o t ere slissid he he mists Sit ft Ateald not go an leg with it d* impends. that Obey &sag& it useres e ry at preside aims severity th e = tree essralso of the will mad Weeds& of die es that they *NOM It PottllsarY psi mmt i ti mi ts wis elarbaties of the sables et the established shame it Begird in Canada to pat the rights and dais et the lies& sathelic Church as a abbe &apt . wit& IL ' baited that he had se whit Weaver rut the Naha and dose at tha Ream lathe& shards oliesid Mad at a diftwint footing Ie the which tdits shay zsesnes wee* saw the paring of bit bill. He Mk* agreed with the =hie lord, that it would be utterly - wins the which he had taken in the dramelem la thst lone, andt principle of the bill itself, that wash should be the cam. On Monday might the noble earl make (Derby);T an 00l opinion, midi whisk he aftertr.said he set saw clamed, that the peebeion requirieg attain acts lbe Canadian logislalmo to be placed se like table he thirty days before the await et the crows IMO fille to them, was one which entailed great laeonvemisals, sad was ef very little um.z a Its had me &nabs the *obis earl was eapseming t llahe enl o I most semind t T emm itisit was the basket his grea heir t eapseion eethat in s lertisldps provision did net emend = 6 :111111•N o and to the rights wad does ed the dinsit in Canada, bat _ts way ather seastearateem ethos sales& be -with by I& nadian bedsitters I emit** sae* would be this. that esmaidebble dabs obis ebbed &the Osismist- Ow, as to which nem of the Cuba. issidatasedid esM s *biz the beanies of this provides, sad whit it did mot, aid ha was met snub that la tom a alisimostasesa niftier ha. 4 ass hiss nada as this wigs& This being We 'blab he iiiteeld et a seavemisat time imbibe a bill fas the paw pa,. bet he amid ant uplift say &Weeks tier. T • Berl et W 107.1•011 asid as be undeneeed the Babb d i me if I. deny aseadallsedisa either by the Camad.loo_psddannet or des pordanant Of this oniony des sum about/ hi haw the vocals.' ansooti them die inn would c ewe to ban Tbst was under the anon, law. Hr did an thine V oi l l usold lad a eines andloas in the art toile** don The language of tba ass was, that if at ay Ines the *meld fall below the aided amount hootosy anon, lot merely from tins, bat from ay core, ths Consolidated land of this country was liana. Earl 01111 T amend his noble Woad that if he thought with him that the goaranass fang would be a burden an the people of this nanny, las shoal object to the bill as much as ha did. They had, however, the opines of the law officers a the mews that it would asu have that drool, and besides a portion of the reserves had bees sold, and Out of the proceeds a sun was actually is yielding a..suut which was roan than sulleleat to save this Manny 'non being called on to auks good any deficiency. Alter a few words from Iced RADZIIDLIJI the bill was read a third tilos. REGISTRATION OP ASSURANCES BILL. Oa the report of this MD being brought up, The LORD CHANCELLOR moved to add a clause Ovine, rwe endorsed, tioa to the clerks in en sag which weld be by the bill. Bt. LIONAILDS ert be wished to cornet a ads &probe:Wow with "teal be that bed fallen from him ow a know asp of this suf. Is wooosofol that he said he agreed M do algeggykitm, whines what bedsit eras that he should Mt a• ippridari MOw mor ee s onsmo tibiliL When he in „ ma eal Ober ratters, „ma b e d 'ohm Mahe gave the Mader et the OPPeadles a arc Ma, 1114 oast O a Werth, slim By this bill it was prepaid to Fire the holder pf that new office compensation out of the Consobasted Fa* and as it was • lucrative office, be woul•1 require ' - thowands of pounds to satisfy him. The noble .-- propoicd to give compensation to the clerks in also.: or to those who were not continued. 11 think that common clerks, ‘ll2O might be ' - - a sot at an hour's notice, cliim to coinpensadon. this was another instance of the great expense to which this bill would pot the landed interest. TILE TRANSPORTATION OF CONVICTS. Earl GREY then rose to put a question of which he had given notice, what arrangement has been mule fur disposing of the convicts now in the penal establishments at Portlsnd, Dartmoor, Gibraltar, and Bermuda, who under the regulations in force when they were sent to those esta blishments might expect to get to the colonies with tickets of leave, and also bow many convicts are still detained in those establishments who under those regulations would be already entitled to be removed with tickets of leave. He said their lordships would remember that in this it became necessary to mike some considerable alterations with re gard to the system of transportation, and a committee of their lordships was appointed, which collected some very valuable evidence on the subject, and in consequence of the report of that committee the scheme originally determined on at the end of 1846 was to a slight degree modifi , d, and sines that time had continued in force. The prin ciple of that scheme was that offenders were sub ject to punishment in this country, first by separate confinement, then by imprisonment in public works ' and ultimately they were removed to a penal colony. That system bad worked very successfully, and had had the best effect in securing the reformation of the convicts. About two or three months ago, however, it was announced in that and the other house of parliament that the removal of convicts with tickets of leave to Van Diemen's Land was to cease altogether, that not another ship was to be sent there, and that, even with regard to Western Australia, only a small nfirober was to be sent. Now, there were in the esta blishments a considerable number of convicts to whom had been held out the promise that, by good conduct, they might entitle themselves to be removed with tickets of leave to the colonies ; and he, therefore, wished to ask the question of whielt he had given notice. lie would only add that the keystone of all improvements of late years adopted in the treatment of convicts had been keeping faith rigidly with them, holding out no inducement of indulgence in consequence of good conduct which had not been strictly fulfilled. . The Earl of ABERDEEN said no one knew better than the noble earl the great difficulty of dealing with such a question as this. The question was, how far it was practi cable to comply with the expectations which had been held oat to these persona. lie entirely agreed with the noble earl that it was necessary to preserve good faith with all those who had reason to expect indulgence in consequence of good conduct, but to send them to the colonies was im possible, and therefore it was not possible to comply lite- rally with the terms held out. Still good faith might sub stantially be preserved towards them by a diminution of the duration of punishment under certain regulations. Al though this might not be as welcome to the con victs as sending them to the colonies, yet under the 0"- lances it appeared to be all that was This - of the diminution of the duration practicable. system of punishments was under the consideration of his noble friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and he hoped would speedily be adopted. He was not about to give an opinion with regard to the principle of adherence to the punishment of transportation. That subject required full consideration, and also the means they should posseu of carrying it out. In answer to the noble earl as to the number, he might say that the number of persons to whom he had referred as entitled to tickets of leave amounted to 1,052. Those persons undoubtedly would not be sent to the colonies, but they would receive such an equivalent in the way of diminution of punishment as should be thought equitable and just. The noble lord had not referred to the systems which might be pursued hereafter with regard to the treatment of those persons, and therefore he did not feel tailed upon to go further into the subject, but he thought that &discussion in which the sub ject might be fully inquired into and thoroughly examined would be essentially useful. Earl GREY—Do I understand the arrangement is to discharge in this country the convicts now in these establish ments who, under the existing rules, would have been sent abroad ? The Earl of ABERDEEN—Conditionally, with certain gradations. It is a subject, u I have alrrady informed the noble earl, now under the consideration of my noble friend the Home Beeretary. Earl GREY said he bad heard that aanonneement with considerable surprise. If they discontinued sending these convicts abroad, they must discharge them at home, and this they would do without the authority of parliament and against the recorded opinion both of that sad the other house of parliament. Her Majeety's government had taken upon themselves—he ventured to assert without any nee's sity—to repeal the punishment of transportation, which for 200 years had been the policy of this country to adhere to. lle did not mean to go int, a discussion at that moment. Their lordships were not made acqurinted with the arrsnge meats that were to be carried into effect, and which it ap peared were to be carried into effect in such a as to involve a violation of good faith towards those unhappy men who were in the penal establishments, because the noble earl had told them there were upwards of 1,000 men in these establishment', who under re g u lations under the sar.ction of that and the other house of parliament, and which were hung up in their cells, had a right to ezpeet that in consequence of their good :conduct they would be sent to the colonies with tickets or leave, but who would not be sent. He had heard the announcement with great regret. The Earl of ABERDEEN said the noble earl understood him. No decision had been come to on the subject. He (the Earl of Aberdeen) said the matter was under consideration. The noble earl already knew the difficulty of foreleg convicts on a crilocy ; he might attempt impossibilities if he would, but he (the Earl of Aberdeen) said that that which was possible only could be done. Admitting fully the necessity of keeping faith with these men to the full eatent that was practicable, and observing the principles of equity and justice, the proposition which would be made he hoped would I• satisfactory, but what it wan bad not yet bees decided, and therefore he could give the noble earl no further answer. Earl GRIT said if he made • mistake the noble earl himself wee answerable for it. He said they were going to discharge there men in this country, sad the noble earl said yes, under certain gradations. If, then. they were going se Moberg, them under what wee called certain gradatkem they bed Melded, end they had virtaally taken upon themselves to abolish the system 44 transportation without taking the opinion of parliament on the subject. The noble mg had mad* an allusion which he perfectly well undoubted, that he (Earl Grey) was amaze of the im possibility of taming colonies to receive convieta; bat he would remind their lordships that, by the last accounts white bog iniumnil fa she public papers, and in the papers laid es Ode - lordships' table from Van Diemen's Lend, when the kid markt ship arrived, snob wan the 110lODUTS• ef marten elsithSg to employ them, that the. authorities W le employooldiem to keep order, and to have a ballot kr pokily el &SW. • 411111•MPIIIiin then ensued, in which Lords Lansdowne, Campbell. Derby, Granville, and the Doke of Newcastle, took met, after wheat the house (at ones o'clock) ad journed. HOUSE OE COMMONS.—Tauxanty, APRIL 28 The Ifirtatza took the chair at a quarter before four &dock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. BURTON-UPON-TRENT IMPROVEMENT order erring the Ihulewepon-Trant braprowinnent Bill to the cosszeittai of seleelkethe reed and dischersted, and thet the bill be with / ms ; also that keys to gives to brills in abW for mon albeenelly Itspffhfs. the town of Satton-upoa-Trent, in the ementy of Illeeised • end that Mr. Added*, and Yr. Mei wpm sal bag in the same. Agreed to. LONDONDERRY, ENNISKILLEN, AND SLIGO RAILWAY BILL Sir R. FERGUSON moved that the standing olden Nos. 170 and 174 be suspended ; and that the Londonderry, Eanfakilles. and Sligo Railway Bill, 'as amended, be eon doeslied this 'Waged Memeerow, provided amended prism shadd have bads day. Aimed to. OLDHAM CORPORATION AND OLDHAM OAS AND WATERWORKS HILL. This bill was read a third time and passed. • PUBLIC BUSINESS. PETITIONS PRESENTED. _ _ Taw Runorr.--Ily Sir 1. GRAHAM, signed by up wards of 2,000 persona in a single day; Mr. MACAULAY, from the Town Counoii of Edinburgh, in favour of; Mr. T. PARKER, from 48 teadealers and grocers of the borough of Preston; against the increased charge for licenses to dealers M tobacco, tea, coffin, sad other @k illable articles, propmed by the Clemellor of the Ex amen; Mr. MOODY, from the chairman of the Yeovil sad Drindume Midlionl ',slaty, praying fee a distinction be- twos purramilsEarki loworgEri _lawman . in the amassment albs beriemeled-; I& T. DW@COMBE, from working. men of IlheMeld, praying for the repeal of the whole of the advertisommt duty; Mr. BASS, from Walter Pike, of Derby, sompliisiag that the mods proposed of abolishing the dxty eel angpleiMilMwill produce advantages which will be shiest mempolimed by the Taws newspaper ; Mr. EWART, from the dollen in tea, coffee, tobacco, Ea., in Dumfries, against the proposed increase in the duty on heesses; Mr. KENNEDY, from the proprietors of the Legit* and Down Pilo newspaper, complaining on public grounds of the duty imposed on advertisements, and pprraayymse for the entire abolition of that inipoq; Mr. GHEE HAM, from the Mechanics' Institution of Droyls den and Houghton, for repeal of advertisement tax, stamp duty on newspapers, and duty on paper. OrarriNG Or THE CRYSTAL PALACE ON SUNDAYS.— By Mr. C. TURNER, from the Wesleyan Methodists of the Liverpool Northern Circuit ; Mr. DUNCOMBE, from Friends of Civil and Religious Liberty, Sheffield, in fa• your of ; Mr. GWYN, from a place in Glamorganshire; Mr. DUNLOP, from the inhabiteets of ,St. Stephen the Martyrs district, Liverpool, against. Pioxrc Houma (SCOTLAND) 1311.1..—8 y Mr. CRAU FURD, from the inhabitants, merchants, grocers, and dealers is excisable liquors in parishes in the county of Ayr, against; Mr. 0. DUNCAN, from the ministers and ' office-bearers of the Chapelshade Free Church, Dundee ; Mr. COWAN, from the Convention of the Royal Burghs of Scotland, in favour of. lirroxiCenno Liutroue.—By Mr. A. HASTIE, from the &Milk T pstaraa Leafs', praying that a commit , tes be appiliffisi gegalee Mtn the mew for checking the me at thavymerrr Tam Btrz.—By Mr. CRAUFURD, from umbers of the Tree Church inhabitants of the burgh THE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EVENING.. ,APRIL 29, 1853. of Irvine; ljdr. COWAN, from the minister and cam- • a ps bewail's( the. Free k eh, Dejgam t h. l a f,,,,,,, m a. 4 i Late or Situ. T.—COUDet - lIIINCOI., mints the *lard ef• Guar of tb.e Ilelinsley Unioli, in York- shied..ist inner of t kreplal of the .laws for the removal! ' and settlement of the pew, and for ',More equitable sys tem of rating. „ . • Mitnellier s SEalCatea HOSPiTAT,.—Dy Captain t BELL; from seamen find seafaring men of the port of . Ear tiepool, against the repeal of the manning clauses for mer ch nt Tensely, believing that such repeal will drive English seamen to the United Stater. COUNTY RATES AND EXPENDITCRE BILL.—By Mr. LASCELLES, from magistrates in quarter Selniolll. against. COUNTY FINANCIAL BOARDS BILL.—By Mr. W. BAOOE, from the chairman of the Walaingbam and Swag= ham &anions, against. MARRIAGE WITH DECEASED WIPE'S SISTER.-..8y Mr. CROWDER, from the city of Bristol, signed by the mayor, 17 magistrates, 18 town councillors, 24 dissenting ministers, 65 solicitors, and others to the number of 9,851-2,3.57 of theta being rr arried women, in favour of. PARLIAMENTANY PAPRILS.—By MT. BASS, from inha bitants of Derby and neighbourhood, praying for parlia mentary papers for the literary and scientific institutions. MALT TAE.—By Mr. W. BAGOE, for repeal of the malt tax, from Dorking, Sporle, Dayton, Sedgford, Lynn, East Dereham, Surlinghatn, Bacton,Wilton, Honing, Bridlington, Crostsristht, Poston, Sloley, East 'Luton, D,lham, and Felmingham. TRANSPORTATION,—By Sir R. INGLIS, from the So ciety for the Propagation of the Gospel, against transporta tion to Australis. CONSOLIDATION OF THE LONDON AND E Dimmest GA:rms.—By Mr. COWAN, from the Merchants' C. pony of Edinburgh, and from the Chamber of COMMONS Sol Manufactures of the city of Edinburgh, against. NATIONAL EDUCATION IN IRELAND —By Mr. H. W. WICKHAM, from the clergy and laity of Bradford, Toa d**, for an alteration in. LANDLORD AND TENANT: By MT. KENNEDY, signed by 376 inhabitants of the parishes of Kilsaran and Stabanan, taunt, Louth, complaining of the existing relations between landlord end tenant in Ireland, and praying that legislation be carried out on the principle contained in Mr. Serjesnt Shee's bill. ROMAN CATHOLIC ENDOWMENTS.—BMr. PIGOTT, from the Mayor and 1.127 inhabitants of Heading, against catholic endowments. awake, the noble viscount bid been yet more vigilant ; for j be "aid that his enaction lad already been called to the Onatter. It nevertheless Appeared that burials were still giting.tin in St. Clement's grave-void ; and that one had been pollinated there on Sunday last. Now he wished to ask the noble viscount whether it was not true that, on the Ilth of February, he had promised to take the earliest pos sible means for shutting up the grave-yard ; and whether, in point of fact, he had done so ? Lord PALMERSTON could assure his noble friend that be had taken all the steps which the act of parliament en abled him to do for the purpose of closing permanently and for ever the graveyard in question ; but the act provided a eertain number of forms to be gone through, which in volved a oonsiderable delay between the order for closing and she actual doing. lie presumed the interval was In tended by parliament for the purpose of enabling the pa rishes to take measures to provide themselves with other means of burial; but his answer to his noble friend was, that everything had been done which a Secretary of State could do ; and that in a short time those forms would be completed and the graveyard closed. (Hear, hear.) THE DANISH SUCCESSION. Lord D. STUART said be had another question to put respecting the Danes, but not St. Clement Danes. It was, whether the noble lord the member for the City of Lon don was now prepared to lay on the table of the house the protest of the Prince of Schleswig-liolstein against the treaty regulating the succession to the crown of Denmark, and any correspondence relating to that subject ; and whe ther the above document had been laid before the law officers of the crown ? Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to say that he was not prepared to lay the correspondence on the table, and that it had not been laid before the law ofSccrs. THE LEGACY DUTIES. Mr. BRIGHT *Aced whether the property in possession of corporations, aggregate or sole, would be subject to the like duty en succession as other property. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the terms of the resolution which he should propose would not be applicable to corporate property ; but it would be the duty of the government to submit a proposal en the subject of corporate property. As the subject was one of great diffi culty, involving classes of property very differently cicum stanced, the hon. gentleman would not expect him to enter into detail upon it. (Hear, helm.) INCOME TAX ON WAGES. Roman THE COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. Sir C. WOOD moved that this committee be empowered to report, from time to time, the evidence take. beforethem. Agreed to. ELECTION PETITIONS ABANDONED. The SPEAKER reported to the house that he had re eeived letters from the agents of the respective parties, abandoning their petitions against the returns for Dublin (county) and Londonderry (county.) CLONMEL ELECTION COMMITTEE. On the motion of Sir J. TROLLOP', this committee was discharged. Mr. BRIGHT asked the right isou7 gwtkmen was prepared to answer the question of which be had given notice respecting the income tax on th , of families. He had had strong representations on the 7itle% t from per uns in the north of England, having hundreds of men in their employ who, with their families were in the receipt of above 2/. a week. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said ho wu quite aware of the natural anxiety of parties oa this subjecr,and he was very desirous to meet it. At the same time he hoped that any answer he might mate previous to the introduction of the bill would be received with certain in dulgences. (Hear, hear.) The principle of our law was that , considered MAYO ELECTION COMMITTEE. _. a man end ha wifewere.__ . as one person, end that principle would operate with regard to the ineome-tax Sir W. VERNER moved that the evidenth taken before this committee be printed.—Agreed to. upon wages ; but the government did not propose that the THE ORDNANCE SURVEY (SCOTLAND). earnings of the children should be included. (Hear.) In answer to Mr. Sitoth.nrr, THE LEGACY DUTIES. Mr. WILSON stated that it was net intended to depart In answer to Mr. HENLEY, from the general order which had been laid down for male- The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he was not aware of any expository paper that could be framed big the ordnance survey. The counties of Dumfries and which would afford any real assistance on the subject of Ayr bad already been completed, or were in progress. The duties. He . must trust . to such explanation as . he e survey of Forfarshire was also in progress , but there were , these might be able to glee in proposing the monitions and in th e menial circumstances in the case of that county arising front ale difference of seals. discussion on the. bill. In answer to Sir F. KILLY, NOTICE OF MOTION. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he NEW WRIT FOR BERWICK-ON-TWEED. should not be able to give any details before the resolution Mr. PHINN gave notice that on Monday next he should was propoeed. move (as an amendment to the motion of the hon. and Lord A. VANE asked whether the proposed legacy duty gallant member for Wenlock) that a new writ for the would be levied on propel/ under 'liniment ro . bough of Berwick-on-Tweed should not issue until The CHANCELLOR the EXCHEQUER said that Thursday, the 2nd of June. , was in effect the same question. He could not now enter RETURNS ORDERED. _ into the details. THE ROTRITIHITHI " GUNCOWDIR PLOT."—On ens LEGACY DUTY UPON CHARITABLE motion of Mr. DUNCOMBE, eopiesof all correspondence er INSTITUTIONS. documents addressed te, or existing in the custody of the Mr. OLIVEIRA inquired of the Chancellor of the Es- Board of Ordnance, relative to Mr. William Hale s inven- chequer whether he would consider the question of legacy tions and improvements in war rockets. e._ duty upon bequests made to charitable and philanthropic SPHLIT DUTInt altiLAND.—On the motion of ow institutions, with a view to their exemption from its pay- R. FERGUSON resume o f the number, of gallons of went. The amount in itself was very small, and the prin. proof spirits on which duty was paid for home consumption ciple of exemption with reference to these institutions had in Ireland, in each of the years ending the 6th day of already been admitted, by their not paying income tax apes Jan. 18-52 and 1853 ; of the number of detections, and the their funded property. number of persons prosecuted for offences in Ireland against The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the the laws for the suppression of illicit distillation iu each of government bad no intention of making such a proposal. the years ending respectively the 6th day of January, 1852 Sir J. PAHINGTON moved that the evidence taken and 1853 ; of the number of persons confined in each gaol before the Rye election committee should be printed.— in Ireland for offences against the laws for the suppression "reed to. of illicit distillation, on the 6th day of April, 1852, and the '"a THE INCOME TAX. 6th day of April, 1853 ;of the number of detections, the The house then went into committee of ways and means number of persons prosecuted, and the number of persons and the debate on the income tax resolutions was resumed. convicted for offences in Ireland against the laws for the Mr. COBDEN said the Chancellor of the Exchequer suppression of illicit distillation, in each year since the sth bad remarked upon the amount which the house had al day of January 1853, and the rate of du'y on spirits in Ire- ready expended of the anticipated surplus; he had seemed land per gallon, payable in each year ; and of the num ber to do so with emphasis, and even w i t h regret . of persons confined in each gaol in Ireland on the sth day At that moment, when they were taking a review of April in each of such years, for offences against the laws of their assets and liabilities, and considering what could for the suppression of illicit distillation. be done for the benefit of those with the management of PEOBATI STAIII.3.—On the motion of Mr. ALCOCH, . whose attire they were entrusted, it was a proper time return of the somber of stamps sold sines 1815 sor to include some referees, to the way in which the amount grants of probate chargeable with the highest amount of the surplus had been disposed of. (Hear, hear.) of probate duty. He promised the house he was not going I. make a peace THE METROPOLITAN BOROTTORS. oration. He was not going to blame either the present or Mr. EWART begged to ask the noble viscount whether the late government for anything they had done in the way he was right in rappels( that by the existing law power of expenditure. But he blamed many parties out of the wa given to the metropolitan boroughs to apply to the go- house for having rendered such expenditure almost nethe vernment for a charter of enfranchisement ? sary. (Hear, hear.) He would go further, and say that Viscount PALMERSTON said that by the act of the let he thanked Lord Aberdeen for not taking greater advan of Victoria, chap. 104, any borough might apply to the tags, which many sill y and some not over honest people had Queen in Council for a charter of incorporation, and the given him, of increasing lergely the expenditure of the metropolitan boroughs formed no exception. (Hear, hear.) country . (H ear , h ear .) Had Lord Aberdeen proposed an THE ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIONERS. addition of 20,000 men to the army and 10,000 to the navy, In answer to Mr. J. B. DENISON., in January last, It would have been received with acclaim- Mr. GOULBURN said the house must be aware that the tion ; and they, poor peace people, if they had escaped conduct of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners was regulated martyrdom altogether, would hardly have escaped Ming by two separate acts of parliament , the one applying to pumped upon, if they had opposed it. (" Hear, bear," and them as the ecclesiastical commiss ioners, and the other to laughter.) It wee matter of regret, almost of reproach, a portion of them as estate commissioners. By the first act that they had allowed themselves to be led away, so as to they were required in their report to state certain specific incur this great increase of their establishments. How details, namely, the schemes which they submitted to her did they now stand ? He would only go back two Majesty in Council, and also their accounts. The Mats years—to 1851. Since then our expenditure for military commissioners, however, were required to give an ac- and naval purposes, including the militia, commissariat, count of all the proposals which might be made and other outgoings of the same kind, bad been increased to them by capitater bodies, and to state the by 1,870,0001. (Hear, hear.) In 1851, 16,650,0001. was terms on which such postman had been accepted. voted under those heads; in 1852, 16,431,0001. ; in 1663, sr, If rejected, the reasons for their refusal. He believed 17,400,0001. He particularly invited the attention of Mr. that the reports which had been laid upon the table of the Newdegate, who said the Manchester school were going to house would be found completely to fulfil the directions ruin the aristocracy, to this fact—that but for these addi eontainsid in the acts of parliament; although the commis- Lions to our establishments since 1851, we should now have goners had not thought it their duty, at the suggestion of had a surplus large enough to have effected all the rends hon. members during the progress of debates in that house, alone and modifications that were contemplated this year, to introduce any extraneous matter. without a farthiag of additional taxation. Meer, hear.) Mr. DENISON gave notice that he should move for re- The Manchester school mast not be held responsible for turns of the property in which the commissioners were di- this expenditure. Whatever blame other parties might redly in . take to themselves for it, he took none whatever. He did THE TEA AND TOBACCO LICENSES. cot say that we ought to spend nothing for our armies. Mr. LABOUCHERE begged to put a question to the Massy rimer' he had proposed, as an extremely low esti- Chancellor of the Exchequer in reference to a part of his fi. mate, ten millions ; all he now said was, had we nancial scheme which particularly affected the dealers in been meeennige menet te be content with the ex tobacco and tee, and which had caused much disquietude to penditure of 11161.-16,660,000 L, and not added to persons engaged in those trades—(hear, hear)—and he did it 1,800,0001. atter we should now have been so because he thought it possible that the answer of his able to do what he h ad jut stated. .(Hear, hear.) Would right hen.friend might greatly relieve that anxiety. His ques • not this have been a such more env iable condition for the tion was, whether the right hon. gentleman was prepared to Chancellor of the Exchequer and and was it not quite naturg modify in any manner the system of excise regulations that he should nave expr e s sed himself in those pathetio which he to apply to dealers in the articles in banes, when he spoke of the house having voted away the question, an which were generally felt by them to be un- anticipated surplus ? Though there wags great panic about • French inon 12 months ago, now, if the question were equal and unjust? If so, would the right ken. gentleman have the goodness to give publicity to the alterations he Mg to any rational being, he would say he was under no might intend tomtits In time for them to be fairly consi- aeprebeasion about it at all, and hardly anybody could 'be dared by the trades ? (Hear.) found who would admit that be had had any fear of that The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was much kind. But the mischief had been done. The addition bad obliged to the right hon. gentleman for giving him an op. been made to cur vest establishments ; and he wished to portunity of sating in the house what he had already en. call the attention of the public—who were more to blame nounced to pawns de various parts of the country, namely, than that house—to the fact, that having ones made these that he was sensible the scale of licenses proposed, though additions of 1,800,0001., they could not bring them bath be thought the principle of it was cue which would be ap- again in a day. (Rear. hear.) It was difilbuit-43ey, im proved by the house, would operate with great severity— payable—to effect a reduction to that amount at once. with a severity not at all intended by the overnment. H e They could not, in justice to the parties engaged, dismiss (Kr. Gladatone)wouldnow freely give a pledge that the scale them in • day. Mosey had been laid out in machinery and in the construction of works which must afterwards should be re-considered, and that it shbuld be re-printed in y tim/ to be seen by all the parties whom it concerned before he kept up b an annual charge, rather than in it was submitted to the house. (Chem.) cur the loss of the whole entny. Pensions must be gen tl e . granted to those engaged ; and he hesitated not Sir P. KELLY wished to know if the right bon. man wou ld extend has re . nana id ara n an to the pro p ose d to say that this generation would not live to see the whole expense die out that had been incurred by the licenses for minters, which had also created great appre hension and alarm ? (Hear, hear.) additions of the last two years. (Hear, hear.) Every other The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.—The re. item of the national expenditure, save the naval and mill consideration o f which I spoke —r don't say it a ppli es tar, had been comparat ively steady. In 1861, the ex equally to all parts of it—but it applies to the entire penditure for other than military or naval purposes, bed smith (Cheers.) been 34,692,0001. ; in 1862, 34,732,0001. ; in 1863, ASSESSMENT OF HOUSE PROPERTY. 34,783,0001.; the whole increase being only 81,0001. upon Mr. VANSITTART asked the Chancellor of the Es- an amoun t of 34 m illions ; . whereas the Increase for the chequer whether he was prepared to allow the same de army, navy, and oranance, upon 16,560,0001., had been duodena for insurance and repairs In house property in the 1.?_,843,0001' (Hear, hear.) No one who wished to seas car that none which was now inevitable in this valuation of bloom tax, as were allowed in the ease of ri gid out • ' • poor meek and whether hs intended to mese the profits of country, would say policy , this was an indifferent view of the the occupiers of lead in Scotland at the same rate as those question. They must grapple with these expenses if thaw in England ? would enable the minister to effect such modifications in The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied duties as were inevitable , without constantly asking for ea that it was not intended to assimilate the assessment of increase of d irect ta :alien. These remissions of Indies'. house property, fer the purposes of the income tax, to the taxation were inevitable. We might get them by savings, by the growth of a surplus revenue, by retrenchment, or by assessment foe the wpm, of Abe poor rate ; and that it the growing revenue arising from the prosperity of the MI intended to assess the profits of occupiers of land in Scotland at the same rate in proportion to their rent as county t but if we allowed the growing surplus to be eat -- • • they bed been heretofore. up by constant additions to our military and naval Mr. VANSITTART said that the answer did not exactly ments then the necessary fund must com out of f b hear.) the roperty and income o t e country. ( Heave meet his views. (Great laughter.) Were the occupiers of - land to be assessed at the same rate as those in Howland/ carednet who wan in power; both parties would be He establish , . The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied inevitably driven towards a policy which should aim at a reduction of the excise and customs duties, even at the ex that it was intended to continue the rates of assessment both in Scotland and in England, on the footing on which pare of direct taxation. Mr. Disraeli had propose,' a re. auction of the malt tax, substituting direct taxation by the it had been placed by former acts of parliament. (Hear.) doubling of the house tax. The Chancellor of the Es- BATTERSEA BRIDGE. chequer proposed a legacy duty on real estate, also with the Sir J. SHELLEY begged to ask the First Commimioner view of effecting a large remission of indirect taxation. of Works, whey the new bridge at Battersea-park was likely The late government fell solely in the attempt to find a sub to be finished, what was the proximate amount expended @tante for the malt ax; they probably might have been in upon the work up to the present time, the probable amount office still but for the insuperable obstacle of getting • direct that would be required to complete it, and whether it would tax in lieu of this. If the government hardly saw their be proceeded with to completion without uonecessaey bagel way now to a majority sufficient to carry through their time ? budget, it was from no other reason but the difficulty of Sir W. MOLESWORTH stated that the sum *lnlay I finding direct taxes, in order to enable them to reduce in 's:evaded was 15,0001. ; that, in order to complete the direct taxes. (Hear, bear.) They were come to a time bridge and Its approaches, a further sum of 6.5 0011. I when, if they would be extravagant, they insult be so out of would be regnirod, and that no time would be lost in mini- property, and not out of indirect taxes. This process of re plesino the were", provided that the necessary funds were moving indirect taxation must go on. The interest of hu forthcoming. lie IlDity had something to do with it. When everybald7 had on ST. CLEMENT DANES CHURCHYARD. hi e lips professions of regard for the interests of the p,thr, they Lord D. STUART paid the hone) would remember that I c o u l d not levy a larger amount than was levied in other very, early in the present session he had pet a question to the countri.w on articles contumed by the great bulk of the noble viscount the Home Secretary upon this subject ; and people. (Hear, hear.) Another reason was, they foitnd by his answer it appeared that, if he (Lord D. Stuart) was more and more that the property and peace of the country r '! - . - depended upoin the constantly inereuing employment of the muses atthopeophrt and they could lot secure that em ployment unless by constantly removing the impediments placed in the way of their industry. (Hear, hear.) These impedimenta would glow greater in proportion as our com merce and gavigatioo increased. Take for instance the customs regulations. There had bees a great and very just outcry from the merchants is consequence of the obstacles gupultaitinotnehe. (Hear,warofthehierarcolmmTereshosebyretghuelaCtuiosntosmw-heoTeusebraed enough when we bad to deal with only 30 or 40 millions of annual exports and imports ; but they were grievous and insupportable when we came to deal with imports of 70 or 80 millions. Not merely that, but the velocity of transac tions had Increased. Screw propellers were taking the plum of sailing vessels; it once required thirty or forty days to make the voyage to America ; now we did it in twelve. Hence the grievance was greater which subjected merchants to the same delay at the Custom-house. (Hear, hear.) These barriers must ultimately give way. But how ? We could not alter the tariff so as to enable certain kinds of goods to come in free, and without examination, unless by a total re volution as regarded the import duties. (Hear, hear.) We could not allow bales of cotton, though duty free, to land in Liverpool, without the Customhouse officer thrusting his wire through them, to see whether they had not been con verted into bales of tobacco ; and if the duty of Is. a pound were retained on tobacco, this would very soon be the case. Unless the duty on tobacco was reduced to 3d. or 6d., the object would fail altogether ; and he hoped there would be no such increase of smoking in this country as to cause a 3d. or 6d. duty to yield as much to the revenue ea the pre sent duty. (Hear, hear.) With such a :eduction there would be a lose of two or three millions at the least, and it would save to be made up by direct taxation. (Hear, hear.) We must make up our minds, in the interest of all, poor and rich, for the preservation of our commerce, to a constant remission of those duties. Every year since 1842 had witnessed a remission of indirect taxes. Though none had been proposed lest' year, the self-acting progress of the sugar duties was going on. This would goon, and must go on—(hear, hear)--and the question was, how to raise means to enable us to carry it ea. Coming to the practical question before the house, he found there was in effect a deficiency ; for he looked upon this remission of indirect taxation as so inevitable, that though the Chancellor of the Exchequer had a surplus of 400,0001. or 600,0001., he was obliged to lay on fresh taxes to meet this inevitable demand. He had proposed the income and property tax, in an elaborate, able, and very subtle argument. That part of his speech war the lout satisfactory. (Hear, hear.) It was the most declamatory, and the least conclusive. He had alluded to Mr. Pitt, and to this tax having served our purpose during war, and said that therefore it ought not to be used in a time of peace. But WAS it not time we had done with ..hat argument /—because there was always this obvious answer to it—that other the customs and excise duties—had done their work tomes—the g the war ; and if it were a reason why a tax should not be used during peace that it had been so useful in time of war, then they ought to pat by this giant of the custom house, in the same way as the giant of the income-tax and give him repose until another war. (Cheers.) But nobody proposed that. And why not ? Was there aaything in trinsically worse in an income tax than in a tax upon tea or wine ? Did it cause greater oppression in its incidence? (Hear, hear.) Did it obstruct commerce and impede industry more than an indirect tax ? On the contrary, however oppressive it might be felt to be by many people on other grouods, he had never heard this complaint alleged against it. (Hear, hear.) Much had been said about its demoralising the trader, by means of the sallamessmont. But did not the levying of the excise duties produce more demoralisation than any direct tax? It was said the self-assessment offered an irre sistible temptation to fraud. That might be remedied. He did not see why any one should be called on to assess himself at all. In America, where direct taxation was levied for all the purposes of the separate states, nobody was called upon to make an assessment of himself. The tax-payers elected assessors, experienced, sober, discreet men, who assessed the value of their neighbours' property. Why should not that system be adopted here? Why should not the income tax payers elect assessors, who should be au thorised to use's the income of their neighbours? The right hon. gentleman could not agree to any modification of the income-tax. A fallacy ran through his arguments on that subject which he should have thought would have hardly escaped so acute a logician. They all amounted to this: —" Don't tell me that you can at all diminish the evils; I'll show you that evils will still be left behind; therefore, I won'tallow you to touch them." (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman admitted the grievance. Who could doubt it ? But if he put on trades and professions only something like bid., and 7d. on real property, that would be to some extent a diminution of that injustice which the right hon. gentleman himself admitted. They might deal with terminable annuities after. The plan of the actuaries however was an arithmetical vette, which, however well it might look upon paper, would never work in practice. They might at least have a mitigation of the injustice which had b. en admitted, though they might not be able to apply the remedy to the full extent. (Hear, hear.) He admitted as the result of the committee on which he sat that there were greater difficulties in the way than he expected—(hear)—and what he heard there shook his confidence as to the practicability of getting all they wanted. But, at all events, that was no ground for doing nothing. (Hear, hear.) If they were to do nothing till they arrived at perfection it would put an end to all sublunary reform. 'Hear, hear.) Arid he was afraid they must stop short of that. (Hear, hear.) The course which he took with regard to the income tax re quired explanation. (Hear, hear.) In 1842 he opposed the proposition of Sir R. Peel, because he refused to deal with the sager duties, and wanted parliament to agree to the income tax to repair the ue. He was placed in the same position in 1815. In 1848 he voted against the motion of his hon. friend (Mr. Home), who proposed to lay on the tax only for a year, in order that there might be time for inquiry, and on this ground, that there was danger at that time that gentlemen opposite wanted to abolish the tax altogether, and he ' ( Mr. Cobden ) wanted to preserve it. His hon.friewicarried his motion,and when they came outofeom mittee the right hon. gentleman opposite in 18.52 attempted to carry out his views of making a distinction between per manent and fluctuating incomes, which showed that he and his party were actuated in 1851 by the best possible motives, and that the had a &wilds intention of dealing with the question. (Hear, hear.) Having taken that course with regard to the income tax, he had again to deal with the un modified income tax, upon which the government, he be lieved, were ready to stand or fall, for he understood that they would not agree to any modification. (Hear.) At the same time, he had presented to him another portion of the budget, which he believed Would go far not only to redress the inequality of the old income tax, but which was a bold and perfectly honest proposition. (Hear.) Whatever might be the issue of this proposition, the right hon. gen tleman would have earned for himself the weed of pro posing a straightforward resolution, and endeavouring to grapple with a subject which had defied Mr. Pitt in the plenitude of his power. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman had proposed to deal with the subject, and the time would come when somebody must deal with it. (Hear.) At the pigment moment, looking at the income tax, coupled with the legacy . duty, seeing that they were to stand or fall together—viewing them as the keystone of the arch of the whole Bridget—he would take them both together, and take them with both hands—(hear)—and he felt bound to say that in the north of England he did not find the same active opposition to the equal rate of duty which was laid on all classes. lie believed they felt more aggrieved at the inquisitorial character of the tax than with Its unjust and unequal assessment. He thought the right hon. gentleman did well to extend the tax to incomes of 1001. If they Gould deal with this tax in the abstract, he thought that it ought to be levied on every person where it would pay the cost of collection. (Hear, hear.) He said, " deal with it in the abstract," assuming that no other taxes existed ; but where poor people had to pay more taxation in proportion to their means than the rich, he felt bound to endeavour to compensate them at all events by levying on the property of the rich and those who were above them in station a greater amount of, direct taxation. He would not therefore levy the tax on wages, and he thought the right hon. gentleman acted wisely in drawing the line where he did. (Cheers.) He new came to the question of the application of the income tax to Ireland. (Hear, hear.) That seemed to be the great difficulty with the government on the present occasion. The represeata tires for Ireland would not suppose that he was anxious to impose any unjust burden on them. (Hear, hear.) He was an advocate for religious and fiscal equality be tween the two countries. (Hear, hear.) As far as regarded religious equality, aotwithstanding partial outbreaks of bigotry in this country, nothing should induce him to put a fetter on the Roman catholic*. (Cheers.) As regarded religious practice and observances he would leave them as free as they were on the other aide of the Atlantic. (Hear, bear.) He wished to eee perfect religious, commercial, and financial equality between the two countries. (Hear, hear.) Every tax that was put on this country must be put on Ireland. He did not want to lay heavy burdens either on England or Ireland. But he wished to speak plainly on this matter. He had seen the working of this system of levying heavier taxes on the ope country than the other, and his felt convinced that they could have no safety in the working of their legislative system if they had members fiom one part of the United Kingdom more tightly taxed than others. (Hear, hear.) He had seen for • long time the effect of this discrepancy of taxation. The effect of it was, that the Irish members generally took very little interest in the imperial expenditure, incept where it was a question of tranferring money from the exchequer into Ireland. (Hear, hear.) Hence it was that the Irish members gene rally fought so strenuously for the bauble of the Lord Lieutenancy. (Cheers) Hence it was that they fought for Kilmainham Hospital, which was nothing but a nest of jobbiag. (Cheers.) He sat on the committee on Kilmain ham, and he spoke with some knowledge of the facts. (Cheers, and " Oh, oh.") What was the reason that the statesmen of this country objected to representatives from the colonies sitting with them in a common legislature 1 The first and striking objection which started up was, that the colonies did not pay imperial taxation, and were not liable for the debt of this country ; and therefore it was thought that it would not be safe or proper for them to sit here and Jest with matters of taxation which did not concern them. (Hear, hear.) What happened on the last occasion that he spoke on the subject of the budget ? The hon. member for Belfast voted for the imposition of the in come tax on his constituents of Barnsley and Leeds who were largely engaged is the spinning of linens—Belfast being engaged in the same trade. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Belfast voted fur the income tax on that occa sion. How would he vote now? (Hear, hear.) If the hon. member voted against putting a similar tax on Belfast, now was it not clear that they ought not to allow men to sit in the same House of Commons who represented dif ferent interests, and where they could help the minister to put taxes on their neighbours. if they allowed the colonies to be represented in that house an ambitions or uuterupu loos minister might make use of them, if they were not pawned of a virtue more than ordinary—(laughter)—for the purpose of oppressing the English people. (Hear, hear.) On the present occasion the government, true to the system of compromises which existed in this country, proposed to give Ireland what was nearly as equivalent for accepting her portion of the income tax. (Hear, hear.) He, who knew the temper of the people out of doors on this subject, would whisper to the lion. gentlemen opposite (the Irish members) to close the bargain. (" Hear, hear," and laughter.) If they refused to accept the bargain, it put them out of court as advocates of the poor in Ireland —(hear, hear)—because the poor tenants who bad holdings under 51. a year would have to pay half of the consolidated annuities, whereas those only who had 1001. a year would be subject to the income tax. How many farms in Ireland would pay the income tax? Those only which paid 200/. rent would, have to pay on 1001., and how many tenants were there in Ireland who paid 'MI. a year rent? (Hear, hear.) With regard to the licenses, he thought the right hon. gentleman had erred in principle. lie (Mr. Cobden) could not under stand why a dealer in tea or tobacco should be subjected to a license from which traders in other articles were exempt. (Hear, hear.) Ho could understand why, for excise purposes, a nominal fee should be imposed for registration, but why a trader in articles on which the government al ready placed a tax should be required to pay au ad ra/orens duty on their rent for trading in those articles was what he could not at all understand. It he found:that these traders were exempt from tuxes to which others were subject he could understand why they were required to pay for li censes. But it was not pretended that this was the case. He was glad that the right hon. gentleman was going to take this matter into his consideration. (Bear.) He now came to the advertisement stamp, and on this point he had recommended the right hon. gentleman not to make two bites of a cherry. (Hear, hear.) Ho wished to see the connexion between the press and the government dissolved. (Opposition cheers.) He knew the meaning of that cheer, but it only illustrated his argument. He knew it was said that the right boo. gentleman in pro posiog to remit the supplement stamp was conferring a boon on one newspaper. (Hear, hear.) The remarks on that point were matter of notoriety. (Hear.) Now, ho did not believe that the right hon. gentleman was capable— (cheers)—he thought the right hon. gentleman had too mach credit for a character of sincerity and truthfulness to suspect—that, be would be a party:to a transaction of that kind; that he would propcse to remit the duty of id. on supplements, because it favoured one particular newspaper. (Hear, hear.) But see how tho advertisement duty kept up the connexion between the government and the news papers. Some newspapers wanted the duty off altegether,and others wanted it on And the government for the time being made use of the rival influences for the purpose of making them shape their public course accordingly. (Hear, hear.) The government should have no connexion with the press. The right hon. gentleman must be aware that by reducing only the advertisement duty, and taking the stamp off supplements, he was benefiting only one existing newspaper, and perhaps only one prospectively. If the right hon. gentleman should be advised by some provioci .1 news paper to alter his plan so as to levy a sum of 14, on the newspaper, and allow the supplement to go free, whether it contained news or advertisements, or both—if the right hon. gentleman adopted that advice, he would fall into au error of the same character, though not the same is degree as he fell into with regard to ono newspaper. The right hon. gentleman at the outside would only confer a benefit on half a score of papers which now published supplements. But how would the proposal act prospectively ? It would act in direct opposition to the principle which the right hon. gentleman laid down as to the mode of dealing with licenses, for there he proposed to levy the tax in proportion to the business carried on. But what did he propose with regard to the newspapers ? He proposed to allow a paper twice the size of the Times to be published with the penny stamp, whilst the struggling newspaper, only one-half the size of a sheet of the Tames, would have to pay the same amount for the stamp. (Hear, hear.) The effect of this would be that the small paper would have to pay • penny stamp at an immense disadvantage as com pared with the great sheet. (Hear.) He had seen in Lan cashire, where some papers published supplements gratis, that the readers liked so mach to have a large mass and sta ll face of reading before them, that other papers were also compelled to publish supplements, or they would be tram pled out of existence. If, therefore, the right hon. gentle man levied a penny stamp on small papers, and allowed others to publish for the same stamp any amount of news and advertisements on large sheets with supplements, it would be the most destructive thing for second and third rate newspapers that ever took place. He hoped hon. gen tlemen on the opposite side would consider this, for the newspapers in their interest had not the largest amount of advertisements. The right hon. gentleman proposed that if a man kept a vehicle with two horses, he should pay say 15s. tax ; but if he kept a carriage with four wheels, he would have to pay double that amount. But in the case of newspapers he reversed that course, and allowed a person to keep four sheets in hand for the same stamp that he charged on the single sheet. With regard to the soap duty no one could deny that it ought to be dealt with. He con fessed that when he heard persons at public meetings for sanitary reform talk of the blessings of cleanliness, and re collected that there was a duty on soap, be blushed for the hypocrisy of his country. (Hear, hear.) Again, when he heard them speak of the blessings of education, and taxed the material of which that education was to be diffused and promoted, that would also stamp the country with hypo rny as long as it continued. (Hear, hear.) Ho sincerely hoped that the budget, in its main provisions, might pass the house. (Hear, hear.) As far as he had an opportunity of judging, it was generally acceptable out of doors. (Hear, hear.) The imposition of the legacy duty removed one sore that festered in the miads of the people for a long time. (Hear, hear.) He sincerely believed it would be for the advantage of the landed gentry that they should get rid of this exemption and take their share of equal burdens. (Hear, hear.) He had heard that this im position would not meet with much resistance in the other house. There were but few in that house who expected successions—here there were some. (Laughter.) He had been breakfasting with a gentleman of the diplomatic corps the other morning, who remarked to him that it was easy to explain why this tax would not receive much opposition from the House of Lords, for, said he, the House of Lords is La Chambre des Pairs (Peres), and the House of Commons is La Chansbre der Fibs. (Much laughter.) There was only oars . point that he wished to add. He desired to be perfectly honest about the income tax—he wanted to make a clean breast. The right hon. gentleman held out an expectation that they were going to have this tax only till 1860. He would not be any party to sanctioning such an idea. (Hear, hear.) He had a firm conviction that they would go on to remit indirect taxation, and such being the case, he would not be honest if he said that there was any prospect of getting rid of the income tax. There were only two ways of get ting rid of titian:. It might ha done by substituting some ether direct tax for the income tax, or by retrenching ex penditure. (Hear, bear.) He believed the right hon. gentleman was sincere when he said that the tax might be abolished in 1860, and that if the right honourable gentleman was then alive—and be hoped they would all be alive then—(loud laughter), he would, if prevented from carrying intfleffeet the view which he sin cerely professed, rather resign than be a party to a breach of faith. (Hear, hear.) But how few of them might be on these ben es in 1860? (Hear, bear.) How could they bind the parliament of 1860 ? (Hear.) No it was not pos sible. There might be a reform in parliament before then. (Hear, hear.) This tax might be changed into a mere pro perty tax, and they might capitalise incomes before then; they might desire to have more of the legacy and probate duty. Any of these things might happen, but he would not pledge himself to the abolition of the tax in 1860. (Hear, hear.) (The hon. gentleman, after thanking the house for the attention with which he was listened to, sat down amidst loud eheen.) Mr. Serjeant SURE said he wished if possible to allay some of the exasperation which the speech of the hon. member for the West Riding had produced ; but fins, he had a word or two to say respecting the speech made by the hon. member for Carlow on a previous evening. The lead ing principle of that honourable member's political appeared to be, a systematic attachment to the government that happened to be in power. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the general question it did appear to him that the opposition of the Irish mem ben to the income tax was one which in justice the English legislature should respect. He woald beg to remind them that Sir R. Peel, when Inland was more prosperous than at present, and the present President of the Board of Con trol, both declined to propose it. So it had been since the Union, and therefore he thought there was some ground fur now asking the house to pause before it inflicted this new tax on Ireland. (Hear, hear.) One reason was, that it could not be honestly or justly imposed. They talked of faith with the public creditor, was there no faith to be kept with our fellow-subjects ? (Hear.) If the right hon. gen tleman succeeded in imposing the income tax on Zeeland, he would perpetrate • great injustice, because, let him recollect that at the time of the Union, the debt of England was 486 millions, and that of Ireland was 28 millions. In 1816, the debt of England was 735 millions, that • of Ireland 112 millions. How had the debt f Ireland so risen in so short a time? The representatives of Ireland were entitled to some con sideration in that house, because they were only 100 to 500, and were therefore quite powerless, except from the English sense of justice. To ascertain how that debt of 112 millions had been brought about, he would refer to the Act of Union itself, and he thought he could prove therefrom that the increase was caused by partial and unjust legisla tion. By the Act of Union Ireland was protected from the previous responsibility of England, unless one of three things occurred—either the liquidation of the joint debt, the approximation of the two debts in the proportion of 7 to 1, or—improved circumstances in Ireland. Of these con tingencies the second only had occurred, in the increase of the debt of Ireland, in consequence of the unfair and oppressive demends of the English treasury. The fact was that the interests of Ireland had fre9uentlybeen sacrificed to the merest whims of England ? 14 as she not made to support a church establishment with which she had no sympathy, merely to gratify the religious whim of England. (Hear, hear.) The tax for that whim was nearly 600,000/., besides 500,000 or 600,000 acres of land s and all for a mere whim. He trusted that this matter would be considered in the next budget. (Hear.) Again, gaff of the public expenditure in Irelsnd was a consequence of English whims. Of what use was that enormous army in Ireland, if England governed her as a Roman 'catholic, not a pntestant country ? Of what use that large army of police, if Ireland were governed as she ought to be ? He knew the police rate woes joint burthen, but it was levied, and demanded more taxes, merely on account of the whims of Eagland. It was our religious laws and our landlord and tenant laws that made these forces necessary in Ire land. He bad been surprised to beer the cool in- 1 , pidit ?de en va i niste pet • optet 'hen a of t it t non Clans iuistt .11 at . the 6 ish Mr. e rotic • ould pied .r Ire ere the thr• muds o od. 159 1 if et ion, I bow ears, prll J. in ut b 3 ution .uld .assed hole . cut ad tl .1 the Cl l l nd al hat s , oust annl give prig were poi]: and reoF to I tion ♦ie! gar( of t Irisl 111e2