The Express. — London, England, 1848-04-15 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS.—FRIDAY, APRIL The Loma CsaurceLLoa took his seat at 5 &cloak. PUBLIC BUSINESS. FIRST READING.—Smoke Prevention Bill. SECOND READING.—Leame of Mines (Ireland) Bill. THIRD RISADINOS.—Mutiny ; Marine Mutiny ; Eine. ELECTION RECOONISANCES BILL. On the motion of Lord MOSTEAOLS, the second reading of this bill was postponed until Monday. P REVENTION OF SMOKE. Lord REDESDALE laid on the table of the house a bill for abating the nuisance of smoke from ferneries and chim neys, which every o ne who lived in the metropolis or other large towns must have felt to he a great annoyance and in. jam'', to the public health. (Hear.) The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was very seed the noble lord had turned his attention to the subject, and be should be most happy to give his assistance in poising the bill into a law. (Hear, hear.) The bill was then read a first time. CORN AVERAGES. The Duke of RICHMOND, in pursuance of notice, rose to ask a question as to the corn averages, and said it was of great importance that they should be carrect, as the tithes were often commuted according to these averages, and many gentlenun let their farms on the same data. Corn inspectors were appointed (some ot whom were ladiei, the wives of electors who had served members o f parliament)—and many of them were very careless in making their returns. He did not, however, think they wished to deceive the go vernment or the country; and he should be glad to know whether the corn inspectors kept any books of their returns, and, if so, whether the Board of Trade ever sent down to in spect such books' He thought there ought to be some addi tional check. There was a general opinion among the bar men of England that theca had been great mistakes made in the prices of wheat and barley. He, therefore, wished to ask if the noble marquis (Lansdowne) was aware whether those returns could be depended on, and whether the government would take some means into consideration for obtaining • mote effictual supervision over the corn returns. (Hear.) The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said the Board of Trade was not aware of any inaccuracy in the returns. In many cases they were made by excise officers, who were very responsible persons, and there erns no reason to suppose that the other inspectors had neglected their duty. BUSINESS OF PARLIAMENT. Lord STANLEY ought perhaps to apologise for comment ing on the mode of transacting the public business of the house, as he had only for a short period had a seat in it. In bringing forward the subject, of which he had given notice, he should be obliged to use very plain terms, and he hoped that he should be forgiven both there end elsewhere, as his only object was to facilitate the business of the legislature. He did not mean to touch on the privets business of the house, but he wished to direct attention to the mode of in troducing and carrying through both houses of parliament the laws of the land. He had had a seat in parliament for the last twenty-live years, and within that period there had certainly been a great alteration in the constitution and cha racter of the House of Commons, and also a great alteration in the feeling in which their lodship% and the other house of parliament were regarded by the public at large. There was now much greater attention paid to public legis lation threughout the country than there was some years ago; but in proportion to the increasing knowledge there was also a eon• ral soil self-complacent belief on the part 01 almost every individual in the community that he himself was a fit and competent judge of every measure that could be submitted to that and the other house of parliament. There was less deference on the part of the public for the individual and collective opinions of their lordships, and the representatives of the people in the other house of parliament. In the other house a great change had also taken place there was a far greater independence at private opinion, and a far less deference to the authority of those whose experience and station gave them • right to speak in the other house of parliament, than there used to be when he fint had a seat in that house. There was also, and he rejoiced to see it, a much closer con nexion between the representatives and their constituents. The elector* watched their members more closely, and perhaps they required too frequently that the representatives should submit their own judgment to the preconceived opinions of their constituents. (Hear, hear.) The representatives sought to recommend themselves to their constituents by increased !peaking, which did not at all advance the public business. They had a great desire to see their names in print, but it did not tend much to the edification of those who listened to their orations, and still less to the advancement of the public business. (Hear, hear.) An adjourned debate some years ago was a rare thing, but now it seemed to be the rule and the conclusion of a debate in one night the exception. (Hear, hear.) Again, it seemed to ate expected by the public that the government should provide remedies for all public grievances, real or imaginary which greatly increased their labours, and caused an additional responsibility to be thrown on them. But the government had also less facility in forwarding their business than they used to hare. They had but two nights in the other house of parliament, the remaining three mehts being given up to individual motions. (Hear, hear.) They had not, in fact, the command of the two nights, for upon the motion for going into committee of supply it was in the power of any member to bring forward any subject he thought proper. (Hear, hear.) It was necessary that provision should be made for the financial affairs of the country, and that the annual Mutiny Bill should be passed before Elder, and therefore the legislative acts, the law -making, could not pro perly begin until the month of May, when the business of the other house commenced in right earnest. Measures were brought in by wholesale, and pressed forward with great haste. (Hear, hear.) They were generally referred to a committee, and the business of that committee was either interminable, or, to remove objections and save loss of time, the government were obliged to submit to various amendments from different members, to the manifest injury of their bills ; and these amendments, it must be remem bered, were made by members on separate clauses, without reference to ether pore of the bill, which often led to th e e grea t e st absurdities. ( Hear, hear.) bitanres so made w often, to use the words of Richard," Sent before their five into this breathing world." They were made up, and that so lamely and unfashionably, that, if the dogs did not bark at them, the lawyers carped at them ; and the noble lord on the woolsack, with the other learned administrators of the law, must often, in the language of Milton, feel "Chaos Ala supreme, And by decisions more embroils the fray." (Much laughter.) A much larg er proportion of Scotch than English bills was passed into acts, solely because there was less talk about them. (Hear, hear.) Ile feared their lord ships were fast sinking in public estimation, because daring the first five or six months they had to sit without having any business to do, and during the remaining five or x weeks of the session they had a mass of business thrust be fore them which it was impossible they could properly at tend to. (Hear, hear.) They must either, therefore, pass magnets without proper consideration, or drop them, on the ground of the late period of the session at which they were introduced into their lordships' house. The result WU, that they were often obliged so to treat measures upon which the House of Commons had bestowed great pains, and they were oonsewrently regarded by the country as a mischievous in tervention, to prevent the passing of good measures. (Hear.) He did not apply these observations to any particular go vernment ; in fact it was a subject which could not partake of party character. (Hear, hear.) The three last years would afford a fair example of the evil of which he complained. The first was under • conservative administra tion, when he had the honour of being a member of the ad ministration, and he believed that would be found to be the worst, the greater evil having taken place that year. In the second year a change of government took place, and in the third, as far as the parliament could be under the control of any government, it was under the control of the noble lord opposite. In 184-5, 130 acts of parliament were passed, of which 23 originated us the House of Lords, and 107 in the Commons. Tne bills sent up from the other house of parlia ment and printed amounted to 91, and they came - before their lordships as follows : In February, 1; March 5 ; April, 12; May, 4; June, 9; July, 59 ; August, 1. SO that in the last six weeks of the session of 1845, no leas than 63 of the 130 acts, or nearly one-half, were, for the first time sub mitted to their lordships' inspection, during the la st six weeks of the session—(hear, hear); and he then excepted the acts which their lordships did not think it 7 acts neces- of soy to print. In the year 1846 there were passed 11 parliament, 12 originating in the House of Lords, and 105 intim I I Commons, of which 26 were not printed, and he would, therefore, take the remaining 79. Of those 28 had been sent to their lordships up to the end of June, 15 were sent up in July, and 36 in the month of August, so that their lordships were called on to consider no lass than 51 distinct bills in two months. (Hear, hem.) In 1847, 115 bills were passed, 11 originating in the House of Lords, and 101 in the House of Commons, 7 of which were not printed, leaving 97. They were fortunate enough last session to prorogue on the 23rd July, which in these times was very unusual—(hear, hear); and in January they had 2 bills; in February, lithe in March, 7; in April, 10 ;in May, 15 ; making 40 to close of May. In June 28 were brought up, and in July 29, making 57 bills in the last two months, of which 45 were in the Wt six weeks, and 28 in the last three weeks. (Hear, hear.) Now, it was impossible to look at this and say it was credit able to the legislature ; sad the consequence was that acts to amend such hasty legislative measures were constantly being introduced, and all part:es were interested in endeavouring a remedy,. '• such an evil. (Hear, hear.) One great - • that it was hardly possible to cols that house, because they would clash of the other house. He could not tm their lordship: house, but he sincerely louse of Commons would relax their pent. ..t the matter would be taken into considers. comm ittee who were appointed on the subject of of the other house. Although he thought it 7.. restraints should be removed from their measures, be did not wish to see measures ted in their lordships' house, for he duty was rather to control the of the other, the popular branch and he had observed that bills originated house were not often very favourably re sr house of parliament. Now, to prevent ..he beginning and the deluge at the end of ' would be necessary to propose a measure ceive the sanction of parliament. He might eing, that there was no inducement to the rs of their lordships house to attend, because ad so little business to do ; and they, there well skilled in matters of legislation as they be. (lieu, hear.) The remedy which he grant to that house and the other house of . act, the power, if they should so think fit, et of any bill passed by the other house of par previous to the reference of that bill to a coin iourn the consideration of the measure nom a session at which it could not be deliberately consideration to an early day to be named in session of parliament, and that the at liberty to proceed with the bill as if Was! been thea sent from the other house of parliament. (Hear, hear.) Such • measure, he thought, would secure employ ment at the:oommencement of the session, and at its clout their lordships would not have the painful alternative east upon them of passing measures without due consideration, or rejecting them for want of time to consider them meas proures, perly. (Hear, hear.) And with regard to such so postponed, he thought it would b e desirable that their lordships should have the power to refer them to some competent legal adviser to ascertain the bearing %ketone clause might have on another—(bmar, hear) —and who should present to their lordships, at the commencement of the session, a legal report upon every bill. (Hear, hear.) By . such means he believed their legislation would be diminished is amount and improved in quality. (Hear, hear.) He had endeavoured to suggest to his own mind the objections which might be urged against such a measure, and it would be said, no doubt, that it was an innovation. He wu not alarmed, however, at the term " innovation ;" and no doubt, to a certain technical extent, it would be an infraction of the prerogative of the crown, u the crown had the power of stopping a measure by proro gation ; but he could not believe that any government would advise the crown to prorogue parliament for the purpose of defeating a measure which had already passed the Howse at Commons. Such a case certainly might arise ; but the pre rogative would not necessarily be interfereewith, ea the crown would still have the power, by a short prorogation, of putting a stop to the bill alter it had posed this house. He was only anxious to give their lordships the power, on re ceiving an important bill late in the session, of postponing its consideration till early in the next session. He h ad endea voured to asrertain whether the privileges of the House of Commons would stand in the way of the course proposed. As he did not mean it to apply to bills for levying taxes, it could not be objected to on that ground. Thinking their lordships for their attention, he would lay on the table the bill he had prepared, and, if their lordships thought fit to give it • first reading, he would let it stand over till after Baster, convinced that it would apply a remedy to a great practical evil. (Hear.) The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was understood to ray that he could not arsc de to the first reading of the bill with- out thanking the noble lord for the attention he had given to • subject, the evil of which had been klt by so many noble lords session alter session, and which in many cases had completely impeded important measures. The first reading of this bill had his most entire concurrence. (Hear.) Lord BROUGHAM also t hanked the noble lord (Stanley ) fat the introduction of this bill. The subject he t hou nt t bad escaped the noble lord—how far an b il l of pariame was required for th e purpose. Suppose came up from the other house in July ; this house had a right to drop it, and in the beginning of the next session take up the very same bill and pass it through all its stages. The only differ ence from the plan proposed was that the bill must again be sent to the other house, which, however, had the power of passing it immediately. It should be remembered that the three readings and the committee on a bill were not required by any . act of parliament; each house might pass a bill at one sitting if they thought tit to suspend their standing orders. There was nothing either in acts of rarliament or the common law to prevent this. Bills might be passed at once or in a lump, as had been dune by the former National Assembly of France, which once passed 30 or 40 must important measures in • single night. But, for the sake of avoiding rash and blundering legislation, some further alteration in the mode of conducting the busi ness of the houses, was abeolutely necessary. He thought' the greatest possible improvement would be the establish• meat of a bond of learned and practical men, to revise the drafts of all bills, watch their progress through the houses, note the alterations made, compare the bills with former acts and with themselves to see that the same words were not used in different senses, so that the acts might not contradict themselves and each other. At present, the learned judges were called on to put a constructio n on obscure p assages reconcile contradictions, and to elicit meaning out of alsiur dity—a task which might well move compassion for these learned personages, and sympathy for the unendurable labours they underwent in listening to subtle and ingenious effarts perversely applied to the words of the law. (llear, hear.) Thus was the public time squandered by the hour and the day, and there was a great chance of erroneous deci sions taking place. Such being the case, a legislator could not apply himself to a mere honourable and important task than that of improving the construction of our acts of par liament. he was compelled to observe that there uses not now the same veneration entertained for this hours of par liament—he would not say for the other—which existed 20 or 30 years ago. This was ascribable, in some degree, to the total incapacity under which this house was placed during the first two or three months of the session, to apply itself to any useful purpose of legislation. The evil was assuredly grievous, inasmuch as this house could not be ' said to have any agency in law making t for, when the crowd of bills came up at the end of the session, the house had only the option of either passing them as they stood or throwing them out altogether. Lord ItEDESDALE would not object to the first reading of the bill, but thought it involved so serious an alterasion of the law that it demanded very mature consideration. A measure might be passed by one house, and suspended in the other for consideration next session, when it was passed without opposition, and became the law of the land—what ever might be the altered opinion towards it in the house in which it had originated. This was sufficient to show that the subject was one which demanded very grave COW& The Duke of RICHMOND saw no difficulty in carrying out the principle of the bill, which he thought very desira ble. lle believed the noble lord who had last spoken was needlessly slimed as to the ea .:et of the bill. The bill was then read a first doh,. The house adjourned at seven o'clock. ratory act to prevent hail being taken fur the second offence if committed while the party was out on bail for a first of fence. lie had consulted several lawyers, all of ahemw agreed that if atter the act passe d ony person, whether mb parliament or not, should at any public meeting, or at his own table, say that the time had arrived when without in- jury to England or her colonies, but with benefit to both, al eeparateen might take place, and such separation should in any way affect the style or title of the reissuing sovereign, he would be guilty of felony. (Hear.) This was a power which had not been e nd in mach more aterming times-4a 1795—when the French revolution had set all Europe In a state of convulsion—when this country was hid of secret and treasonable clubs, and when the life of the king was attempted. The time would come when guvernmeut would rue being thus urged on by a majority acting midis the influence alarm to piss this bill, which was a monstrous violation of one of the fundamental principles of the constitution. Freedom of speech and freedom of the press were the two fundamental principles on which our liberti.s rested—(hear) —both et which this bill violated, lie would warn the house of the danger of enlisting the sympathies of the people on behalf of these who were guilty of sedition ; and sympathy always ace =partied undue severity. it was the duty of government to consider not only the effect but the cause of the people's discoutent. The Marquis of GRANBY admitted that there was a wide distinction between spoken and writteu sedition, and thought the words necessary as a means of preventing the offence, and of punishing not merely the hand that executed the crime, but him who imagined it and incited its commis sion. lie thanked the government for introducing this bill, and for their admirable conduct nn a recent occasion when the public peace was threatened; but he deeply regretted that they had not continued their confidence in the almost unanimous support which they were receiving from all parties in that house, and had chosen rather to make so important • concession to the small minority who opposed this clause. ?dr. J. CLAY tied voted for every stage of the bill to the present. But to this clause he must object, as branding with felony two crimes which were essentially different, not only in their megnitude, but in their influence upon society. Mr. EwAivr took the same course. Mr. AO LION BY had also supported the government in this measure to its present stage ; but to those words he objected. Mr. BAINES opposed the bill, as establishing, even though temporary in its character ar. unconstitutional precedent, which meths at a future period be seined on, to the preju dice of public liberty. Mr. Serj. TALFOURD was of opinion that it was abso lutely necessary to retain the words. lie could not but think that there was a great defect in the existing law, and he, who had witnessed the distressing scenes which followed the unfortunate 15th of August, 1842, in the county of Stafford, deeply felt the necessity of having that de feet supplied, so as to prevent innocent persons from being made the dupes of designing age...acre. (Hear, hear.) Those who had been instigated by Cooper and Frost to vio lence cared very little, he would be bound to say, about the six points of the charter. (Hear) He was of opinion that those who, by advised speaking, incited ignorant multitudes to the commission of outrage, were more criminal than those who did so in written language, became, in the first place, (nip those who could read would he t em p ted to violence by such writing; ; rous e d the next place, their pinsions were not likely to be to such a degree as by words spoken. (Hear, hear.) It was said that words spoken should not be taken as evidence on which an offence ought to be founded, because it was not always easy to hear words distinctly, and they were liable to be misreported, But he would beg the house to remember that many convic tions for murder had taken place, which had rested on words spoken. The hon. and learned gentleman who had pre ceded him said that a person found guilty as an accessory be. fore the crime might be punished as a felon. Brat then, again, the crime of such an accessory coneisted of the words used. (Hear, hear.) It was said that words spoken did not constitute treason. Suppos ing that a person should say t o another, " I will put you in a place where the sovereign will pass by, and will put a gun in your hands by which you may shoot her," would not that constitute treason ? (Hear, hear.) He had no apprehension that freedom of discussion would be injured by this bill, because it was only such open and advised speaking as indicated trea son in the heart that would be affected by it. He felt gratitude to the government because they removed by this ball an inequality teem the law, and did sub stantial justice. He did nut think that the guilty instiga tor should be allowed to go unpunished while his less guilty dupes were made the victims of the law. Of the deluded followers of Frost who rushed from the hills of Monmouth- Afire at his instigation to be slaughtered, while he like a coward tied and left them to their fate, which he afterwards lamented with unavailing tears, not use knew anything of the " six points." They had no political principles, no poli tical knowledge, no political hopes. (Hear, hear.) They might have some idea of higher wages and less work, and of those principles which were now agitating the continent of Europe, and which would, he believed, only end in failure, disappointment, and distress. But whatever their success on the continent, he entertained no fears for the crown, the government, or the church of this country. (Hear, bear.) Mr. hiOORE expressed kis intention of opposing the measure, as one affecting every subject of the realm, as giv ing too great a power to the gover nment over the free ex pression of public opinion, and as opposed to the principles of the British constitution. Mr. OSWALD (Ayrshire) said that, if the bill were ne cessary at all, it ought to have been continued • permanent measure. If not necessary, the country ought net to have been alarmed by its introduction. Mr. M. tdILNES expressed his determination to mist the retention of the words " open and advised speaking." • For his own part, he considered that the insitutions and good order of this, country were never so secure as at this moment. Mr. B. COCHRANE said that the opposition of the hon. member for Pontefract to the government, was a very alarming proof of the rapidity of his progress in the mose ment Mr. F. O'CONNOR said that the compliments which this measure had gained for the government, and which en couraged them in their course, came, for the most part, from ' a most insidious quarter, from a quarter which the noble lord ought to be assured would spare no means of damaging him in the opinion of the country. The hon. member de remixed the proposed words as of the most fatal eff et upon freedom of speech. He instanced, as an illustration of the manner in which ignorant reporters might involve a speaker in a criminal prosecution, a passage from the Sim newspaper, in which he was reported to have said that within a week a hundred secret associations would spring up, and that he would be one of the first to organise such associations ; whereas what he had said was simply this — that he thought it not unlikely that, it open speaking were suppressed, secret societies might take their place. lie vindicated the character of the chartists from the aspersions thrown upon it by a venal press, and mentioned the case of the Times having denounces a chartist as having uttered the most seditious language at a meeting on Blackheath, whereas be (Mr. F. O'Connor) held in his hand a letter from General Napier, stating that no such meeting had taken place at all. (Hear, hear.) The go vernment seemed under some unaccountable infatuation, to be making a retrograde movement, at the very moment that the late absolutist powers of the continent were advancing in the career of liberalism. The press was to be en slaved in England at the very moment that it was being emancipated elsewhere. lie denied that the term " advised" was capable of being safely introduced into any act of this kind. The fact was that this government was the most truckling to its foes, and moat unyielding to its friends of any government that ever existed in this country. That government, however, would find that their very truckling to the men on the tory beuches on this question would lead to a (1 , aided combination of feeling and purpose between the labouring and the middle classes, which would after Easter manifest itself in the form of a pressure of con stituencies on representatives which it would be impossible to resist. This bill had been said to be temporary, oohed the income tax, but he felt convinced that when once it was placed upon the statute book, it would become permanent. Under it the Attorney-General would become a mere tool in the hand of the government, and those who hurried for Russell, would escape its penalties, while on the other hand it would be used as a coercion against the chartists. If the bill passed, he should not hesitate, night or day, to cry " down with the base, bloody, and brutal whip." Mr. REYNOLDS said that in the count of the debate refer ence had been made to the year 1795, when a bill of a similar character had been brought forward by Mr. Pitt ; but on re ferring to that ball, he had no doubt that, as far as punish meet for words spoken, thin bill was of a more severe and unconstitutional character than its predecessors. In the former bill "open and advised speaking" was made a mis demeanour —by this bill it was declared felony, punishable with transportation for life, or for 7 years, in the discretion of the judge, or as the modification proposed, by imprison ment for two years, with bard labour. The former bill had been denounced in 1795 by an ancestor of the noble lord now at the head of the government, though'it did not make by any means so great an inroad upon the the present m eas ure. What were liberties ties circumstancesor the peopl e tat asdemand for co uld justify the nre for the bill? Was there at present anything bordering upon disturbance in Ireland? In his conscience he believed there was not. He was free to admit that there was in Ireland • great deal of intemperate writing and of intemperate speak ing ; but the great body of the people were not involved in either one or the other. There were certainly two news papers, the United Irishman and the Nation, both of which were eery violent and intemperate; but all the other journals were exceedingly temperate and moderate in their tone. lie was reminded of the Freeman's Journal as a piece that published strong articles. lie denied it ; and, on the con trary, thought toe Freeman's Journal was as tame as the Court Journal, as innocent as a mouse, and as polite to the higher orders as a lady's lap-dog. (Laughter.) This being so, why was the entire population to be indicted for treason or sedition by passing such a measure as that now under consideration, because a few mad-caps had got possession of a printing-machine, and by violent writing were in these times following an exceedingly profitable trade ? In other words, why should the whole of a loyal people suffer for the misdeeds of these few individuals ? On the whole, he was convinced that the result of this bill would be to increase the discontent already existing, and would be injurious to the public credit of Ireland. lie and those with whom he acted were not actuated by any factious motives in opposing the bill, but they felt they should deserve to be branded as traitors to the people if they did not attempt, by every postai ble means , to retard its progress. (Hear, hear.) The SOLICITOR-GENERAL remarked that it was a somewhat disheartening task to have to explain a clause which had been explained over and over again. lie repeated that by this bill no new crime or offence was created; in fact, it dealt only with that which was an offence under the existing statute arid com mon law of the laud; and the only thing which this bill proposed to do was to make an alteration in the steps necessary to be taken previous to trial, and also to make an alteration in the punishment after conviction, The observations made by the hen. and learned member for Pee tafract (Mr. Mandel) had other 'peelers, applied to the l a w as it now stood, and this bill only provided the mode of making the evidence precise, in order to ascertain it th e party charged was really guilty of the offence of which he was accused, He agreed that the law of sedition was rem, too vague and uncertain : but this bill, so tae from agu e . eating that evil, would make it more precise, for it weak( provide distinctly that it would be felony for any per. * who deliberately wrote or spoke with a fixed and mow intention and design of :eyeing war, by which he (the Soh, citor-General) meant raising armed bodies of man, for th e purpose of putting constraint upon the institutions and counsels of the country or the metier t e . This was all the bill proposed to do, and it did not make the law of sedition one bit more smingAit than it was at present. He believed that the operation of the bill would be to pet sg cad to all prosecutions for sedition, and the real questim now to be discussed was whether or not it was desirable to alter the punishment prop wed. At present a person em witted of sedition was nu; natlablo, but when in prison could continue to write sedition though incarcerated, and thui he was enabled to keep up the character of a tort of martyr Now when in prison the law ought to give power to keep him silent, that he should not be allowed to commiuneate with his friends, and so perpetuate the offence for whi c h he had been COM m itted. Siletnre enforced on such a man would be the severest penalty that could by possibility be iutleted. In his o i ntlien, a greot deal of the language which hat beta used in reference to the probe-le consequences of the bill had arisen from a sympathy which was eutirely misplaced . Was it not better to put is stop to language which was cal m laced to mislead and delude the people by the ensemara proposed, than to wait until it was necessary to act violently against the people, in consequence of having suffered th em to be so misled . He woo therefore in favour of making th e bill a permanent measure, in order to place in the hang oe the government of Ireland the power of interfering t o p, serve the people of th et country from the icflucnce which bad been exerted against them. But, under any circum stances, as it was proposed to enact the measure for two yes, ' only, if any mischief arose from it they need not revive it— (hear, hear) ; and on the other hand, if the .neeessity for its continuance wen apparent, it would be equally easy% render it permanent in its character. (Hear, hear.) Mr. CAVENDISH brie fl y explained that certain expel. sions which he had used in a previous part of the debates_ epecting the hon. member fur Finsbury, had been uttered by him in perfect good humour and without any intention of giving offence. Mr. WAK LEY expressed himself perfectly satisfied wi t h the explanation given by the hon. gentlem an. After a few words from Mr. WILD in support of the nendment. the committee divided, when the mambas were — For the words Against 79-109 On our return to the gallery, Mr. E WART moved, as au amendment, the insertion of the word " pubdc" before the word "speaking,' in lb, phrase " open and advised speaking." The ATTOILNEY-GEN LEAL assured the hon. gentle. man that the ward "open,' in its legal signiticatim, in cluded in its meaning the term " Mr. EWART stated his wil,ingness to withdraw th e amendment alt gather, on the understanding that the clone should not apply to any , speaking which was nut addre.sed to a meeting excee.liog fitly persons. Mr. DISRAELI wished to suggest that the National Convention consisted of 49 members only. (Loud laughter.) After a few words Irons Sir 1). L. EVANS in support of the amendment, Lord J. RUSSELL said that he had hoped that the tea. mittee more generally understood the purport of the bill. It was not a bill against general and advised speaking si public meetings, but a bill against certain offences now nom. prehended under the term of Isiah treason. (Hear, hear.) Toe hon, gentleman had proposed an amendment, according to which, if it were adopted, a treasonable pan to carry out the invasion of the country might be proposed at a meeting of 49 persons, and might be sent forth as the plan of that convention without the hazard of any punishment felling upon its proposers, merely tecause there were not Ninnies present. (Hear, hear.) Nuw he should certainly rote against the preposition of the hon. gentleman. After • bile' conversation, Mr. Ewnar withdrew Ins amendment, but expressed his intention of moving it in the shape of a resolution on bringing up the report. 'I he CII AI ItalAN said that it was proposed that the follow. ing proviso, of which Sir George Grey had given notice, should be added at the end of the third clause : Or to be ittlltislollCli for any term not exceeding two pars, witk win:tut bard labour, as the court retell direct. Provided always, sad be it enacted, that no person *mill be presecutml by virtue of this.{, for any words spoken unless info: manna of such words be pain upon oath to um or more Justice tor justices of the radix within three days after ouch words spoken, and the prosecution eg such offence be within three months aster such information, and within two year, after the passing of this Jet and that no person shall be convicted by virtue of this act fur any such words spoken but by the oaths to tin credible witnesses. Mr. /LINDLEY suggested that the fact of informations being lodged against • party should be communicated to the accused persona within the three days of the alleged speaking, as well as to the magistrates before whom the in formations were swore. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the inform dons should be sworn within three days tram the time of speaking. Mr. HUME was inclined to think that it should be in. perative on the law officers of the crown to give intimuir of the filing of informations to the sccusea parties. Mr. F. O'CONNOR reiterated the suggestion of Er. Hume that the party accused ought at once to be furni•Led with the copies of the depositions and the names of the en uresis, as otherwise an accusation of this nature might sleep for ten weeks and then might be suddenly revived after the accused had totally forgotten the whole transaction. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that by the law u it stood parties were entitled to copies of depositions and name of witnesses in prosecuting for high treason. IiIN DLEY understood Mr. F. O'Connor had stated the law correctlyss it would stand iu the hill. Mr. MARTIN would take ti.e sense of the committee on the point raised by Mr. F. O'Connor. Sir G. GREY urged that if notice was given to the party accused he would have time to escape. Mr. MARTIN : Then make the two proceedings center poraneous. Hold the accused to bail at the moment that the information is laid, and don't let it sleep for weer while he is unconscious of any accusation being made him. Mr. DISRAELI said thee the object of thead vo cates of liberty seemed to be to have as many of their fellow-subjeets arrested as was possible under the act. Mr. Ald. SIDNEY said that a magistrate ought not to have the option of issuing a warrant for speaking seditious words ; but it ought to be made imperative on the facto( spoken sedition being brought under his notice. Mr. BRIGHT approved of the suggestion made by the hon. member for Pomfret for altering one clause. Sir G. GREY said that nu amendment on the proviso had been yet moved. Mr. MARTIN moved that the words " A summons a warrant do issue" be added to the proviso. The wording of the clause was exceedingly obscure. Mr. MARTIN recited h.s amendment, which was to the effect that the summons or warrant upon the itiformation should issue forthwith. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL objected, on the grounds that a party might offend once by " open and advised speaking,' and it might not be worth while to prosecute, but if he frequently repeated the offence prosecution might become necessary. Mr. F. O'CONNOR—It appeared, then, that the bill pm vided for cumulative felonies. Every explanation ohs learned Attorney-General gave only made confusion war confounded. (blear, hear.) Mr. AGLIONBY said that every step taken in the toll only served the more plainly to show its dangerous and us constitutional character. He could not look upon it as any thing but a trap to catch the unwary. (Cheers.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER mid that under the bill parties would not be indicted for words, hie for the intent. (Oh, oh.) If the hon. member lookel upon the proviso's/ a trap, the better way would be to leave it out, and then the party indicted would be w im m ed ia ten if his words had been taken down and recorded ly upon their utterance. Mr. HENLEY was not satisfied by the explanation of tha Attorney-General. He thought that the moment Worms tions were received a warrant should issue. Nothing could be greater tyranny than to keep a man's case hung up ia the manner contemplated by her Majesty's ministers. (lieu.) Mr. W. H. MOORE also protested against the un co nsti tutional character of the proviso, as explained by the los officers of the crows. Mr. R. PALMER said that, but for the explanation of the learned Attorney-General, he should, as a rasgierna , have thought it his duty to Moue a warrant immediately ce receiving an information. Any other course would, he con ceived, place the magistracy of the country in an mental position. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that this proviso win taken from the statute of Anne, and all he .:ould do err, a give his opinion as to the construction of that statute. We opinion was, that the magistrate's duty was not to rue warrant upon words deposed, but upon his coestruction the intent of such words. (Oh, oh.) The charge wan rat the words, but the " compassing and imagining ' which were to be proved by several things. (Oh, oh.) It was manifest that the charge, being comparing and imagining , th e er i dente should be kept until that offence was ascertained, et then that the warrant should issue. For that it sou neer wiry that words should be perpetuated and recorded. Mr. DRUMMOND wished to know what eras the augie trate to do if words were deposed to b e fore Lim? ROW' to wee not a court of record. (Hear.) Sir 0. GREY—lnformation might be taken in t' n ta senses—the legal and the popular. (Oh, oh.) lief tar ,! t ,„ could not come to a conclusion as to compassing 01 " without having a series of facts before them. After a few words from Sir W. CLAY AA boa Sir F. THESIO ER expressed his regret that be o.e---a eta concur in the interpretation given to the proviso by and learned friend the Attorney-General. (A . proviso ordained that no man should be prosecuted sped of any words spoken. lie apprehenci:d that thrg.. viso referred to th e crime indicated in t he clause, noet apt'.. the offence was to be established by depositions before gistrate. It was the first time ho had heard of depetilif , sworn to before a magistrate, not to establish an Or_, but to accumulate evidence which at some future ta2 o ' a ',7l to establish an offence. (Hear, hear.) He oPl a e!,,beei that the true meaning of the proviso was at onee to 7. an offence, and not to make the magistrate a mere r peat of cumulative evidence. If the latter were the oPlee‘,. erlaae ",„ the proviso it would, in his opinion, be highly obj If that was not the object he should obj ect to the pro!mrdoa, agreeing with the view of t he boo. member for Oslo he thought the amendment unnicesaary. tak , The ATTORNEY-GENERAL was willing t o t te construction of his hon. and learned friend, and °PPP` amendment on the same ground. Mr. MARTIN thought it intolerable that two short-11ga • r 1 1 1' i to apply a remedy to at cause of this evil wee tl licence measures in thi with the privileges of gest a remed in then misted that the HOU& leges, and that the mi tion by the committee '. 1 • the pair& gee desirable that these Tel lordships' original met generally originated considered their si , hasty legislation O of the legislature ; an in their lordships' hoi seised in the other he the drought in the bi the session, it wout which should receive mention, in passing, youn c e o r rd m sll ' i m ps b raci 'f a their fore, were not so wet otherwise would be. to gri Pr°w(vby an su parliame nt, upon the receipt of 1 liament, and [neva)! mittee, to adjourn t period of the sessiol taken into consider the neat sessio i , • house should be at I. I' , 0 . • 1 , a THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 15, 1818. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—FRIDAY, Arm. 14. The SreAKER took the chair at 12 o'clock. PRIVATE ROSINESS. SECOND READINO.—WaIwiII Improvement and Cemetery Act Amendment (No. 27 Bill (by order). Re.PuHTS CONSIDEKED.—Leeds Improvement Act Amendment; Price's Patent Candle Compoy; Reds. TIDED READINGS.—Doer Landing Pier; Morley Gas Light Company ; bouthamptoo Gat Light and Coke Company; Bills. PUBLIC BUSINESS. PETITIONS. —By Mr. O. Tummies t ree petitions from Bethnal Green, Whltechapcl, sed G I'inebu~ a Mr. Finebery.—lar. Ili v, from Ashton under-Lyne, against the Crown and Government Security ItilL—Mr. CLAY, from i n habitantsn of King.lloll.upon-liull, tluit their names were to the petition In favour of the People's Charter without their consent or knowledge. CROWN AND GOVERNMENT SECURITY BILL. On the motion that the SPEAKER do leave the chair, Mr. J. O'CONNELL said that there were clauses in the bill which affected Ireland to such a degree that he felt bound to oppose the motion. and to call on the house to pre vent the bill from proceeding any further. He had heard it said that England was already in possession of those rights which other nations were now struggling for through revo lution. That might be true with respect to England, but it was not so as regarded Ireland. Thera was in that unfortu nate country nothing more than a mockery of constitutional liberty. He complained that this bill would give a stimulus to the spy system, which had been productive of so much caliunlty in Ireland. The third clause of the bill would give such power to the government as would enable them to oppress to the utm ost degree a people who were hara already too much oppressed. Let the house recollect that this might be only the first of a series of measures of a simi lar character. They ought to know how far the government intended to go in a backward policy. The petition which had been presented by the hen. member for Nottingham had a great deal of suspicion thrown upon it, but no person had said that there might not be a million of genuine signature* to it, and such a petit ion ou g ht not: to be disregarded by that house. With respect to Ireland, where be exerted himself, as was his duty, to stop the insane attemp t[ that ts that so me individuals were making to excite the people country, what could they (the Irish members) say when they went back ? Could they tell the people that the ge vernment had done anything or intended to do anything for their benefit? When they returned they would still en deavour to maintain t he peace of the United Kingdom ' ' I but he confessed it would be with faint hope. Mr. M. MILNES thought it would be better if the house I I went into committee on this bill. He thought something was due to the government for the concession' which they i had made. an Mr. J. EVAN felt bound to make a few observations the important question before the house. This subject wail one which always excited the popular feelings. He com plained that by clause four, which was a new clause, a special felony was made, which could be used to harass the prisoner, It appeared now that the duration of the act was to be limited to two years, and that caused it to be re garded with favour by some members in that house. lie did not agree in that view, for although he felt confidence in the noble lord at the head of the government, he would not en- , trust to any government, not for two Tears but for two months, the powers which this bill would give them. (Hear, hear.) Public meetings were a part of the constitution of thi s country; they were peculiar to this country, and to that peculiarity they owed their safety. (Hear, mad hear.) But if to I express one's imaginings at a p ublic meeting was e • felony, secret societies would be the consequence. In other countries such societies existed as the Car. bonari, and the consequence was that either the govern ment was overturned, or the persons belonging to them perished on the bayonets of the soldiers. Such results were prevented in England, because they possessed the right of public meetings, at which strong language might be ex pressed, but by means of which many excellent changes had been produced without the effusion of blood. (Hear.) Had this act been in existence, the opprobrious term of felon might be applied to many individuals in that house, by whose memo great objects had been effected. (Hear, hear.) If to use stroag language was to be a felony, he was sur rounded by felons. (Hear, hear.) Re recollected the ex th e C oo of a great lawyer who for 40 years presided in the Court of Coancery, that the sun of England bad set and her glory departed, because many individuals who had been excluded from that house in consequence of intolerant laws, had been enabled to take their seats within it. How was that effected? By public meetings and agitation. (Hear, hear.) He recollected that government hail been frequently asked, " Wny do you allow tais agitation to proceed? wby do y o u not put a s'op to this? It is trea son.', (Hear, hear.) Were no felonious speeches made at the time of the reform b:11 ? (Hear, hear). Were there no g allant officers in that ho n o u who made felonious es speeches ? (H ear , hear.) Again, wore no felonious speech made during the ag i t aion for the free importation of food ? (Cries of " Queetien, question," answered by loud cheers.) Ile believed it was carried further than that, because some of those felons had b, en amused of threatening the right hand on. b a ronet (Sir IL Peel) with assassination. (" " hear, hear.") He was stating what was well known. A distinguished member of that house had been charged with inciting to the assassination of the right hon. baronet. There was no doubt about the feet, and he mentioned it merely for the purpose of showing how liable were persons to be led to the use of strong language. (Hear, hear.) Language was often used to which opprobrious names were applied ; but in the end it produced beneficial results, and it ----------_ _ was mainly owing ter saltation that they had been save. from that calamity and distress which was now desolating the world. (Hear.) There could be no doubt that an entirely new crime was made by this bill. (Hear, base.) Words spoken never constituted high treason. That was ways the law of England. To constitute high treason there moat be some overt act, as stated by the Solicitor- General. And this was clear from the passage of " Foster" which had referred to. He was speaking of conspiracies and persuasions, and of the reasoning of Hale and others; and it was clear that he thought their reasoning—that spoken words were not treason—ananswerable. (Hear.) I Sir G. GREY hoped that the house would agree to the suggestion of the hoe. member for Pomfret, and go into committee, when the discussion that was now taking place could be more appropriately carried on. The hon. gentle man who had just sat down had, hewn sure without intend ing it, misrepresented the nature of the bill before the house. He (pile agreed with the hon. gentleman as to the advan tage to this country of free discussion by the people of public measures and of public men, and would reiterate, what had a lready been licq ue ntly explained, that ties proposed mos. sure would throw no impediment in the way of such free discussion, while kept within legitimate and constitutional limits. (Hear, hear.) Sir IL PEEL said that under the 36 Geo. 111., made perpetual by 57 Geo. 111., if any person compassed or de signed, or intended the death, or maiming, or wounding, or personal restraint of the sovereign, and should express that design by publishing printed writing', such offence would be deemed the offence of treason. The extension of this law to Ireland was the only difference created by the pro posed measure as to this offence. There woo another descrip tion of silence, however, contemplaual here, that of a person, compassing, or designing, or intending, to deprive the sove reign ot her title to any portion of her dominions, which design, if expressed by published writings, or by open and advised speaking, was to be deemed felony, Suppose that hereafter a person should commit this offence —should compass or design the death, wounding, maiming, or personal restraint, of the sovereign, and express this de sign by open and advised speaking, what, in the eye of the law, would this offence be, and what the penalty attached to it ? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL was obliged to the right hon. baronet for putting this question so directly to him, and he had no hesitation in replying, after mature consideration of the point, and earnest consultation with the highest an , thordies, that the offence described by the right hon. baro net wou.d be deemed and treated as treason. The mere ex pression one an &hatred opinion by an individual would not, of course, constitute treason ; but where words were delibe rately addressed to au imemblegre of persons, by way of advice l or excitement, tending to bring about the execution of designs of a treesoliable nature, this would be an act of treason. 1f hon. members would refer to the report of the criminal law commissioners, which set forth their view of the law as it stood, with reference to a codification of that law, they would fi nd t his point clearly stated, in the sense be had given. Sir It. PEEL que stioneel whether there might not arise some confusion in this respect, Gem the want of the same words iu relation to the two causes of action constituting, as the hon. and learned gentlemen explained, the offence of high treason. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Serjeant TALFOURD said that, reserving the privi lege of addressing himself to the subject more directly on a future occasion, he begged to refer the house to a cam which he believed would admit of no dispute,—that of Col. Desparch If ever there was a ca.te in which a conviction far high treason was received without any sympathy for the criminal on the part of the public, or in which there was no sort ca doubt as to the propriety of the conviction, it was the case of this unfortunate soldier ; and yet the case against him con sisted almost entirely of words spoken; words of excitement and advice counselling others to treasonable. practices. At the trial, Mr. Serjeant Best and Mr. Curing,his counsel, urged the very point that he was chargeable only with words; for thoueh the form of an atrocious oath was found on the persons of some of the nefarious associates with whom he had fallen into degrading companionship, that oath was not found on his person. He was convicted entirely upon the words which he had uttered, and the presiding judge, Lord Ellenborouith, sitting with three other judges as a special commission, to try the persons then charged with treason, thus met the arguments 0 the counsel, who con tended that mere words were not punishable : I think it fit to Mate a word or two upon sonic of the topic. which have been touched upon on the past of toe defendant, an to the quality of the crime imputed to the defendant, and an to the nature of the proof by which the charge thereat iv supported. It whasor been urged that the crime consists only in words, and that ds ar not of theme .Iris overt acts of high treason. If it be said of loose words, referable . to no particular deaign, words merely calumnious, or seditious words, expresaive ot an argry or irritated lined, and of sentiments highly indecent and crimi nal in a subject towards his eoveleign, but words neither indicating ow conducing to the execution of any dettnite purpose of a treason able kind on his own part, nor persuading or exciting othent to con. cur in the execution thereof on theirs--1 readily admit that loose words of thin dericriptimure not to be considered as constituting overt acts of high treason, and that it would be too much to infer hum the random and careless though highly blameable use of expressions of ibis kind no mischievous and abomin able a purpose as the destruction re the King. But if words of this kind are amyl at meetings held for the purpose of forwarding designs of :i treasonable nature, and if they are addressed to per/ions with an intent to excite and confirm them in the prosecution of measures ranch have for their declared object the samesinating or deposing of the King by force and arm., and where words are the immediate vehicle by which treasons such m there are communicated, and by which they are or are sought to be carried into full completion and effect, it never was since the promulgation of law in this land by any one lawyer ever doubted that words of this nature, uttered for such a purpose, at such meetings and consulta tions, and being theinwlvi, the very instruments and means of ex citing other persons to take part in measures which had fur their end and object the personal destruction of the King, were in their very nature and mecum the clearest and most atrolute overt arts of high mania that eon be stated. This point never yet admitted of o doubt; it never was questioned ; it never can be no. Mr. MARTIN urged that Lord Ellenborough's judgment did not apply 0 the expression of individual opinion upon particular subjects, but to actual conspirators. Mr. C. ANSTEY supported the bill. Mr. O. H. CAVENDISH said be had been listening with earnest attention to hear whether any two lawyers would agree upon the subject; but as he found the whole of the learned body disagreeing one with the other, he was obliged to fall back upon his own common sense. The hon. member for Middlesex, the other night, had talked in a very off hand way about old woman's counsels, and the Fox Club,7and the Duke of Wellington's opinion, and a vast number of other subjects. lie (Mr. Cavendish) did nut know what old woman the hon. member had in his eye, but as to the Fox Club he was somewhat more disposed to give respect to its opinions than to those of the hon. mem ber, however the hon. member might consider himself all accomplished in the sciences alike of war and of peace. Ile should give his decided vote in favour of this bill, as a mea sure calculated to produce much good. Had it been enacted some years back the hon. member for Cockermouth would have had no occasion to risk his valuable life in the chivalrous attempt to put down an excess of free spa. cli, which this law would prevent the recurrence of. Ile was quite surprised that the hon. member for Montrose—who seemed on this subject, and about the Irish church, and some other subjects, ,' to have taken a spurt quite une x p ected in a g entleman of I, his years—should be so vehement in vindication of the rights of Messrs. Cuffay and Co., when these convention orator repudiated him, as not the representative of the people of Montrose, but as only the representative of certain dry, bard, Scotch political economists there. Mr. HUME observed that the difference which the hon. , gentleman described as existing among the lawyers on the , subject of this measure was only an additional reason for not precipitating a decision upon it. As to the hon. gentleman's falling back upon his own common sense, it would appear from his speech that be had not much to fall hack upon. Mr. HOUSMAN said the hon. gentleman had of him as though he had been the challenging party spoke ase to which the hon. gentleman had thought proper to refer, whereas, in point of fact, he had never s ent a challenge. At a dinner at Canterbury Mr. Bradshaw made a very violent attack upon the Queen. He Mr. Horsman), having referred to this attack in terms of reprobation at. &public meeting, re ceived from Mr. Bradshaw a challenge,which at first he was disposed to decline, and with this intention consulted his friends on the subject. He found, however, that it required more courage to refuse than to accept a challenge, and be thereupon did that for which he had felt sorry and ashamed ever since. (Hear, hear.) He trusted that on any future occasion of the like kindle should be enabled to show more moral courage and more Christian principle. (Cheers.) Mr. B. OSBORNE had certainly referred to the manifest assistance at the councils of her Majesty's ministers of some decided old lady, but he did not feel bound to say whether the old woman of his thoughts were the First Lord of the Treasury or the Home Secretary, or who she was. The ipse dizit of any witting who happened tohave government connexions did not at all alter the case. What he had said with respect to the precautions taken on Monday was, that the arrangements made by the government were so ad mirable that it could only be wished their conciliatory measures were equally so. The noble lord professed to be a disciple of Mr. Fox. The hands were the hands of Esau, but the voice was the voice of Jacob. The hon. member concluded by making some remarks on the speech of the hou. member for North Derbyshire (Mr. G. H. Cavendish) whom he dram ibed as being one of those gentlemen who 101 l in a window at Brooks's, live upon their own estates, and upon other people's ideas. The next time that the bon. member addressed any observations to him, be (Mr. B. Osborne) wished he would do so on the spur of the moment, and not come down to that house welding the midnight oil in such a imiserable effort as he had made. Sir D. L. EVANS admitted that the bill before the house was a mitigation of the existing law as far as written treason l or sedition was concerned. But the new principle sought to be established by it was to render advised and open speaking liable to the same penalties as written treason. He had heard the arguments of the legal members, and particularly the speech of the hon. member for Pontefract, with great pleasure. The question * to be considered was, whether the existing law was sufficiently stringent in cases of seditious speaking. His opinion was that it was quite severe enough. But it would be advisable to hear what the opinions of the law authorities in that house were. For himself he I ventured to say, bold as it might be deemed, that he had bad more experience of the efficacy of secondary punishments 1 than the law officers of the crown bad, and certainly he saw no reason to doubt that the punishments now inflicted on seditious speaking were sufficiently strong. He should cer teinly oppose the bill, if the law officers of the crown did not make it perfectly clear that the existing law was net sufficiently stringent to repress such offences by the punish ments now inflicted on those who committed them. lie hail an amendment to propose, which however he could wish to see proposed by a more influential member than he was. If, however, neither the hon, member for Finsbury I nor the Tower Hamlets would propose it, he should do so. I Mr. S. CRAWFORD said that the amendment proposed I to be made in the 3rd clause by the right hon. baronet had totally altered the whole character of the bill; and yet if the bill had not been detained in its progress that alteration would not have been made, although now admitted to be essential and just. When, therefore, he was told of factious imposition to ministen by delaying the bitl j he most refer the government to their own conduct in altering the mea sure sio essentLilly es they had dose, as affording a complete novae for the opposition he mid other hon.heeenbers had offered. Notwithstanding the alterations made in the bill he still objected to it, and that on the ground that trans. portation for the offences charged under it, would be at the pleasure of the judge to inflict. He was far from approving of the speeches made in Ireland. He regretted that y been spoken, but could not admit that they constituted any reasonable ground for musing the bill before the house. In his opinion all the legal members of the house ought to be sent up stain to consider in committee by themselves until they cam: to some unanimous decision as to the definition of the crime of treason. (A laugh.) He would have the bill delayed until the lawyers could clearly define to every man what the crime of treason, which he was liable to be tried ' for, actually was. It was too had to give the crows a power of transporting men fur crimes which its lawyers could not accurately define. Sir W. CLAY said that the present discussion was • total waste of time, as it would kayo to be r e p eated when the clauses object ed to were considered in committee. However, he should state his reasons for supporting the amendment ot the hen. member for Cockernsouth. He did so because the bill placed under the same category two crimes of a very dif ferent character. The existing law drew a wide distinction be tween tee non written and treason spoken. The law was nothing more than the embodied expression of the common sense of the whole community, and that had hitherto told the people that there was • vast degree of difference between the crimes of writing and speaking sedition. Any man ad dressing a multitude was very liable, under the excitement of public speaking, to say many thing' which he would regret having uttered half an hour after he got home. Would any one tell him such words were as criminal as if they had been deliberately written in a man's closet? Com mon sense pointed out the enormous difference between the two cans. Besides, it would be difficult, if riot impossible, in many ones to get satisfactory evidence of the exact words spoken, as a reporter might easily mistake the context, and so distort words into a meaning which they did not inherently poem Mr. MUNTZ said that although the house might not do so, the people at large would call the third clause of the bill a gagging clause. It was too much to expect plain men in that assembly to understand what the government wished to subject to punishment of treason, when the crown lawyers themselves had not been able to define that crime, or to state whet it consisted in to the house. The noble lord had stated that he was a disciple of Mr. Fox. The only resemblance which the people had hitherto found between the acts of the noble lord and those of Mr. Fox was in his abortive attempt to double the income tax. The question the people asked themselves was, What have the whip—the liberal whigs done for us ?" Why what the noble lord had done for the people might be summed up in three sentences. First, he ead appointed a one-sided committee to report on the late financial chattels ; secondly, he bad proposed to double their income tax • and thirdly, he had broug ht in a g a gg ing bill. Mr.ORATAN regretted that the right hon. member for Tamworth had not asked Mr. Hatchell, the Attorney-Gene ral fur Ireland, whether he had read the speeches and arti cles reported and written for the Nation and United /risk. nian newspapers. That gentleman would have told him he had read them; and if he (Mr. Hatchet') had been asked whether there existed any law by which the writers and utterer' of those articles and speeches could be punished, for basing so spoken and written, he would also have answered, " Yes, there is a law, by which punishment can be inflicted on persons con victed of having SO acted." There was plenty of law to enable the government to meet such offences • and, for his part, he believed ministers had been entrapped into proposing the bill before the house by persons at present in the back ground, who would hereafter use it for their own purposes. Ile asked whether a law inflicting two years' imprisonment on the offences , named in the bill was not sufficiently strong for all constitutional purposes? With respect to his (Mr. Grattan's) country, for which the bill wss allege d to be im peratively necessary, he had that day received several letters from Ireland, all of which concurred in representing the country to be in a most tranquil state, and asserting that the great body of the people were too busy ploughiog their land to bestow any attention on iclitics or revolution. Ile con sidered this bill to be only another proof of the utter and total incompetency of the government to administer properly the affairs of Ireland. Mr. MOWATT wished to know whether, in addition to making it felony to compass any injury to the Sovereign, when accompanied by the overt act of " advised speaking," it was intended to preserve the provisions of the 36th 6: 37th Cleo. 111., thus making the two offences at the same time treason and felony ? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the operation of the bill would be to continue to apply the term of treason to designs against the person of the sovereign, soil to ex tend the Lisa to Ireland. The next crime described in the bill was compassing or imagining to depose the sovereign from the crown of these realms, or any part of her domi nions, to be proved by public writing orspeakine. Another offence was any attempt to overawe the House of Commons, or to intimidate the crown; and the last was compassing or imagining adherence to the Queen's enemies. Ile contended that there was withing unconstitutional in the bill, and that with the addition of three or four words it was copied from an act already in force. Mr. WAKLEY said that government was asking either for increased power or for nothing. (Hear, hear.) They were seeking to control the etaexpession of public opinion in this country, and they called mitigation of the existing law. lie averted that after the conduct of the people on a recent occasion it was a gross libel upon them to ask parlia ment for such a law. (Hear, hear.) It looked as if the people of England sought to depose the Queen, and its true character was evidenced by_ the reception it met with from hon. members opposite. We had, in fact, now • tory go vernment and a tory opposition, and therefore be trusted that gentlemen would soon change places, and thus indicate to the people the true character of their politics. (Hear, hear.) The bill belore the house was a gagging bill more atrocious than the Six Acta, and had been introduced for the purpose of suppressing that free expression of public opinion to which the people of this country had always been accustomed. (Hear, hear.) Out of doors the public were absolutely astounded at the manner in which a government calling itself liberal was dealing with the institutions of the country. (Hear.) Why, even in 1796 Mr. Pitt consented to expunge the provisions of his bill against words ; but now a whig government re stored them, and sought to make open and avowed speaking a criminal offence. (Hear, hear.) They were actually punishing the people of England and Scotland for offences alleged against the people of Ireland. The tories were all delighted with her Majesty's present advisers, and well they might, for if a tory minister were in power he would not have dared to propose such • measure as the present, which the whigs were proceeding with, sail ing under false colours. He did not mean to threaten, hut he would remind the noble lord at the head of the govern ment, that there were certain powers which a minority pos sessed, and which he believed were entrusted to them for emergencies like the present, and be promised, if ever so slenderly supported, to use them against the further progress of this bill. the hon. member for North Derbyshire had attacked him (Mr. Wakley), and other liberal members, with very questionable taste. Mr. DUNDAS rose to order,—He did not think it fair in the hon. member for Finsbury to hold an inquest oaths hon. member for North Derbyshire in his absence. (A. laugh.) Mr. WAKLEY was not responsible for the absence of the hon. member. When hon. members made attacks on other hon. members, it was but fair that they should wait for the reply. He th ought that the hon. member for North Derby shire, as • member of the aristocracy—one of the elite es they called themselves—did not advance the cause of his order by making a low, vulgar and personal attack on mem bers of that house with whom he might for the moment differ in opinion. By such conduct he did more to injure the aristocracy in the opinion of the public than their bitterest enemies could effect. The honourable member had alluded to Finsbury, but the great probability was that he did not know where Finsbury was. (A laugh.) Perhaps the hon. member would be sur prised to hear that it extended from Oxford-street to Fins bury-square. The hon. member bad been meet unjust and inicandid in his attacks on some of the liberal members. (', All.") Oh, not all. The hon. member had left out Idarylebone because there they had a lord. (" Hear," and a laugh.) He (Mr. Wakley) confidently asked the hoase whether such attacks upon hon. members representing large bodies of the people, were calculated to improve the position of the idle—that was to say aristocratic—classes of the com munity ? (Hear, bear.) Mr:AGLIONBY said he should cheerfully go out is vote against the clause respecting open and avowed speaking, but he did think that government might reconcile all differences by . inserting as the punishment for that offence imprisonment with or without hard labour, instead of transportation an at present. He thanked ministers for having adopted one change he had suggested, viz., that which substituted impri sonment for transportation for the lesser offence, and he hoped they would be induced to consider the one he had now offered. (Hear.) The house divided—For the motion 287 Against it The house then went into committee. Mr. Bernal in the chair. Mr. HUME asked whether there would be any objection to adjourn for an hour, it being now past four o'clock. Sir G. GREY proposed to ask the house to sit on until the bill Ghoul , : have gone through committee. (Hear.) The CHAIRMAN : It is proposed to omit the words " by open and avowed speaking.' The question I have to put is that the words proposed to be lett out stand part of the question. Mr. IsIOWATT, looking at the times in which we lived, and what was going on in other countries, looked upon this as the moat momentous question that had occupied the attention of the house, at least daring time. He was op posed, heart and soul, to the bill, especially to the worth in question. He bad no sympathy with the madmen stud tools who had been spouting sedition, and perhaps treason, in Dublin and in the so-called convention in London ; and ke would lead his aid to any reasonable measures for putting a stop to such conduct. But this bill, which created a new felony, to be established by a new species of evidence, went far beyond the necessities of the case. It was a backward step in legislation. Except in one point, the law as it existed was sufficient to dcalwitti all suchoffences as the bill referred to. The noble lord complained that those sedition-mongers who were out on bail awaiting their trial were guilty of an , aggravation of the offence by employing I inguage even more violent than that with which they had been charged, and threfore,the noble lord contended, that the punishment attaching to the offence under tte present law was not sufficient. That was a most illogical condo. !non. In the first place, the parties had not been tried—if they should be found guilty, and the punish- ment which might be inflicted,yiz., three years' imprisoa inent with hard labour and a fine unlimited in amount, was r ou nd insufficient to repress such offences, then would be the V.ine to ask parliament for further powers, which would of course be granted, All that was now necessary was a dee.la- • rs should go, day th.4.4:67oulfthda:.!lanual,uusetddd"hilit'i:'::;ol;:::::::crttneheaswwsa,rellra:thgoeasell' or wart"' w i t hi n months." In reply to a queetio The A f LUNN EY ( information ut the OM offence tti oith before om.• or mid agar the e .noinnaion c redible witnemes. Mr. MI NI E thougl p h ro e ,ec iso u u te4 ld before they eri, that the ch..rmac rep, hir. Itl•N SALE capital felooicA wire is tal the parti ,, might t did government tutor ui portunity The LORD-ADVC shouldmh a Scotland ore t deer , bie ? for c ontichrition, and with his hon. and lei of Scotland might be Mr. Hil:NlE spin iocurn, and •,, .red the leave to Pit wed's. Sir G. GREY ado clime and h. urging i r. No.") After a few words f NELL, Who t tressed information . . should I ate tr, Mr. HUME, forth report progn .s, Omar hours. N.) notice ha' motion, i•ked, a was aseep ? The CIiAIttNIAS ha Sir G. GREY soh motion, hi -boatel as day), at 12 o' e loch. Mr. RUMS pa Motion. Ayes Noes On the in. .• Mu the part of the b , A mover , . ion a GREY. and Mr. Ace' Mr. O'CONNOR the claim, R. Wheal CODhlstd, no the le fusi Sin WOM confetti Sir 0. GItRY the clause it stag been mad... Sir F. THESIGI to agree to the clau there was is provit much better t Sir G. GREY sa three days. lie di rided it was not was quite a initial c of it was agreed wards. Sir F.TIIE'IO unnecessary delay amendment on wh had thought it des perfect as possit clause and the pn Mr. Ht; ME do der consideritom anything about it Sir 0. GREY by expressing a separated. Mr. J. STUAI agreed to by all. Mr. MUNTZ owing to the ht However much n toted at the .Inlay hers who did not The AT I'ORN the clause. Mr. WA KLIC the questi•oi uf divided acconlici Ayes • Noes • • • • The house aga, amended, sttu.d Ayes ..• • Noes On clause 4 b.. Mr. F. O'COS to pass this clans be added to the agreed to. Ile I sit all night, all than the bill six If they did. he never be a ,, ,e to The ATIOR hon. member I , this clause, atii against the cros to be given to charge against' . After a tsw Sir F. TILE' tial objection L. the hon. mem discussed at ti knew the prsei, to the third els The ATTUI taking the pro , man, there sea: to it. After a fey PALI4 ex in su opposition W i The house t The clause The remain Capt. II AI manufacture report.Tle house brought up ut On the mot to bring in a the care ano tion of luird tuna for pant. The house Monday. The West 1 liontlunw, Ne Including thu Maine, ram Niearefroo. The oath k wEI be made The ocerlan iligypt, Aden, ton, will be rn The man., will be matte The oserho Egypt, Aden, evening of th The nuns I Zeeland will The wadi i tip em the eve The minim Mee, Bahia, Imolai of ii NO! The nun Btainp-offie DAIL mi., we hated eo Morning J In addi Morning 1 TILE Which the Okbe Ws do not pi whit Its col . iSttTe is t LON) Ix d LEI co by movi conduct The alit was, to oeipi of reform; Ti,. To-ao V conside session to an c ?lei= r.O proc from tl Maim