The Express. — London, England, 1851-03-18 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS.—MONDAT, March 17. TL Lona CH A mrri.Ena took his seat at 6 o'clock. PETITION% PRESENTED. COl'lllol.ll ENYKANI .. By Lard CAMP BELL,fnan Waltham Abbey, praying for the cnfranclki-c -. went of . UAL Pizotrtriom.—By Earl CAWhoDOR, from I.ty..ral pari.hr , in mbrolicabirr, praying tnit seal prott - mien. COMMUTATION OF TITHES. The Earl of MALMESIICRY gave notice that on Thurs. the.hl da neat he should present peti t un the subject of the com mutation of tithes. 5.%1.11: OF ARSENIC REGULATION BILL. The Earl of CARLISLE putporied the third reading of this bill until Friday, in conacqueneg of numerous sugges tions whited he had reeled. DESIGNS ACT El TEN XTENSIO TSN BILL.—LAW OF Earl GRANVILT.E, in bringing up the report nn this hilL mill it might be convenient that h e should take that opportunity of stating the intentions of the government with regard to the law of patents. The government wish..l to meet the views so often esprssusl by noble lords on both sides of the house with refer.ace to the introduction of measures into their lordships* house where it way praeticable, instead id' , their coming up lite in the mmion—(hear, hear)—and it was therefoce their intention to introduce a hill on the sub jeer of the patent laws in that house before the end of nest weak. The noble anti learn." lord opposite (Lord Uroughani) also, he believed, intended to introduce a hill • on the 'object, and as it would not he desirable to have the two hills before the house at the same time, istrhaps their lordship' would allow him (Earl (ranville) to have his bill read a second time, in order that it might he referred t o a sleet committee to have eel& nee taken on the sob }let upon which a bill of this sort might to he founded. The • sittl.!.- and learned bu.l would he Wile to attend the to mitten, and no doubt would render his valuable assistance • in improving the details of the measure. (blear.) Lord BID Wit II AM was quite ready to acquiesce in the pvition of th.• noble earl. lie inten ded to have laid his A; on 11., tahle on Thursday nest, hut he would now wait until th.• hill of tlit• rtvemrnent was before the house. The noble and learned lord stated some of the features of hi. bill, the principal of which were to make one potent apply to England, Ireland, and Scotland; and in lieu of the amount now paid in the lint instance, to reduce it consider ably, and distribute it over a series of years, upon a gra duated seal.., first embracing a period of three, then of Misr years, and on on to the entire term of fourteen years. if the pattottet- shoot.' desire it. If Ow government hill did not embrace these "Netts, he would introduce his hill, so that both bills might he referred to the same isconmittlas (Ileac.) PAS:SF:NG ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Idll was read a third time and pissed. REGISTRATION OF ASSURANCE:I: BILL. Lord 1 'A'tl PIIELL, in moving the second retuling of this hill, sod it. object was to register titles in England and Wales ; and it was brought toward pursuant to a recom mend:al #### contained in her Majesty's gracious march. Ili. lordship then pent-retied to state all that had been done on the snlijeet from the earliest tiro.* until the mcniorahle speech of his noble and learnt-.l friend opposite (Lord Brougham), which would always he an tn. in the law reform of this country. (Iliac, hear.) Alter that odelor.ited quo ch a commission was imausl for considering the law of real property, over which he (Lord Campbell) hod the honour of presiding; and from that time to this, without distinction of party, there had been • consistent, sine, re, and steady desire to improve th.: law. (Hear, hear.) The members of that eemmission, ronsisting of eminent convey.owers, with one mire recommentliol a central registration art, in thrir report to his Majesty in lad% Soon after that, in the other hoito• of parliament, he moved for have to bring in a bill for establishing a general registration. That leave was grantttl, and the hill was introduced in Ihsamilier, 15.10. It was not a government measure, but it hail the sanetion of the nohle lord then at the head of the govern ment ; but talon- he could more the ueonsl reading of the bill parliament was dissolved, in April, gall. In the Oc tober Ptllowing, when their lordships reject.' the Reborn' lull, on it. second reading, parliament 111111 again di...441NA. In the n. at -essimi he again brought in his bill, which was r e vyr e d v...4.4-troln.nittc... which ,at through ,t 9 long days, and although many menders of it wire 0pp..e.1 to the hill at shoe outset, they were unanimously in favour of Rat the c her. (licar, hear.) Ater maturc the nommdt..•, ore which there wen• 11 county members, guano, ~,,, .ly ot commended a general system of registration which might apply to all lands. Itut unfortunately the t riunity s o l uo t.tc. Ilit• hill, and they were certainly the nowt honourahle and influential Italy in this kingdmr. The rhumb and the magistracy were powerful bodies but the country solicitors were chiefly concern ed in the (stamina of the elections of members of the other hoots , of purliamcnt, and were a still more powerful bode. Anti they took it into their heads that this bill v;ould bring all the business from the country to London, and that they should Ise- their practice in con vey:owing, which was the most profitable 'mit of their pm l'etttions "sowed in (non all parts ; and it was raid that all the private transactions of min& Wen: to be en.. 100011. v.•ry men we. t.• stripped of his title dints; and that it was to enalde the triorrrnnarnt to lay tot an additional land tax.. The people were attuned infuriated by thin: repn-eotations; and, although the Mil was teat% a tarot,' be was obliged to almoolon it, tool it 1111/1 ulti mately thrown out this am in CCU. The iteforin Stilt passed in the :autumn of that year, when Earl tiny Poi ~,,, him with the office of Solicitor-General, but he told him that li.• most make one nautili..., with him, namely, that Ise slioubl not bring in his registration bill again. (A laugh.) A committee of their lordships bony was apt...m.l in Ifilli to outsider the bonito's on hail. *Wyk 11.01 pferklell rover by his nobl.• friend be hold him (God Ileauniont), who enter.' on the subject with walla riii.rgy SIMI ability. A great majority of that if prootictimiists and nonw•reatives. In their reis•rt that couinvittee mid they were convinced that the marlotable .slue of British 'mature was iwriously di miui.h.'d hr tile tedious and expensive prosias of the transfer of Lout t h ey ate, stated that the registry of titl. t•i all real property was tawmtiol to the suiress of any attempt to simplify the system of conveyancing. (near, hear) Iler Majesty's government, howescr, with pro per caution, refrained from introducing • measure on thy, suldtso until another commission had been appointed, and in the month of July last they reported to her Majesty that they wen• clearly of opinion did the oa tablt-htornt Or a at -loyal registry 111111111 Ix• attended with me Irenetilial results. At the opts ~ i,,g of the present par -1.1.111.11t her Majesty, in h e r grit:ions speech front the thyme, said • A measure. will Is• laid hefore you, providing for the cstablishoweit of n system of registration of divas and intorno. sits relating to . th.• transfer of property. This measure is the result of inquiries which I have causeill to lie mole into th.- prartittability of adopting a system of regis tration calculated to give ....airily to titles, and to • h the eau.s of litigation to which they have hitherto Imam bible, and to reduce the cost of transfers" It was in conuipsence of thew remarks in the roval speeeh that the pre.. lit bill had Isom laid to' thew lordships table. (Hear.) In the present stage of the measure. be 11011111 take the Ids rte of adverting to the prietii•al 1,11. which it was the 010. et ..f the bill t.. avert. Them he considered to be insecurity of title, expense and delay morwv.... and the has and inismvenience arising frmi there not Nine any repertory 11' hi-rt. deeds could be deposited mot rendentil sevessible to all interested in their contents. Slaving alluthol at onne length to the ninny and serious evils arising (nom the smut of slim' such measure 11. the prtscnt, lord Campbell said he would shortly state the marl .ry of the bill now on the table, heetuse everything depended on the details -upon how the system was to be carried into effect; (Or, if the machinery was ineffeetive, the bill would na l e y s . The bin propo s ed that there should be one, and only one, registration office ; for, in his upiuian. a multiplicity of ntgistration office. would constitute a great evil. Therefore, he now proposed that there should be only one registration office tor the whole of Ent land and Wales, (lbw., hear.) Now, the plan of memo- riot, as it was Vaned. had linen adopted in Yorkshire, Midair-icy. and Ireland--that was, an abstract was given of the deed. and the names of the parties to it were set forth: but this he thought inaufficient, and that unuanipeti duplicates of deposit-it documents would far better answer the intended purpue and mon:over save expense. (Bear.) The next considera tion had referenee to . istance: and here it was proposed to form &strict., taking the districts almaily (maned by the par-law unions throughout the country as the model, with the view of facilitating the mode of keeping a complete re gistration. Then cone the nose of keeping that registra tion. The hill hi• hail brought forward in the other house had been chiefly drawn up by- a most accomplished lawyer, Mr. Duval. and that gentlenian ',foamy.' a system of rivis- Motion. Before hi. time the only mode of keeping it was by having an alphabetical list of the names of the grantors. But that was an eatnoncly inconvenient plan. For instance, th, y bad in Sintillews every year hundreds of Smiths and Jones.. registered in heaps; and, therefore, by the alphabet iril list, it would be neva - mar, to look at all the deeds made by every Jones and every Smith, whereby much delay would be occasioned. Mr. Duval. bovvever, hot lessitied both the deeds and the seals. so that, by simple looking at the deeds which were under the same swab - a man could We at once all the a,44% ar,.airur 1111 P totiVerte He (Lord Campbell) confesmd that. although he eoneurri:d in this plan. he had some misgivings about its adequacy. Ile thought that maps ought to he at the reels iron:in-00We, and the num. particularly now, when we hail hat on Ordnance survey. awl Antvevs and map. under the Pnor-law Assessment Act —in shrt, when we hail public mil. for a large potportion of the land in Eng land and Wales. (Hear.) At prment. in England. if man's solieitor knew of the existence of a deed. the non 111119.41 . 11.1111`.111.111errli to have - notice - of it. In France and in Soglawl no sue) •• notice" w.fs r e quir c d ; an d o we ,. Vitt no iloola that in lin:land it hail led to much igeonve. ukase,. Th • present hill proiseal that no person should be affected lty Any deed which was not registered. and that that dortrineo( should he eaphaled. ( Hear.) Now with regard to Out obit etions mole to the bill, he would shortly notice them. In the first place it was %aid that it 111.1.,1 01.311110.11.1t1011: hut he thought it in aeconkine. with the ancient simplicity and publieity of the commln law of England. It. principle. 'nonuser, was already in operation in some English counties, and for centuries it bad been adopted in Scotland, and there found efficient. to all our colonies there was a registry. In every eoantry of Europe a registry of some sort esists:d, and in no country la the world had it beet" found inoperitive. (Hear.) It. might ot.erse that deeds could be transmitted to the mai. tration Mike by means of the general penny psvottiee, and that the expense of sending theta there from the remotest part of the country could not amount to than a few shillings. (Um, ham.) Auer THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH IR, 1851. ther objection which weighed with soar persons was the forced disclosures which it was said the hill would occa sion. In that objection he saw no force. Much misrepre sentation had gone forth upon the subject, he was aware ; and it seemed to be supposed that every nobleman and gen tleman would have his title-deeds transferred to this rues try by force. Such was not the ease, anti in ordinary cases there need be very little further of disclosure than existed at present. But it was peffilbetly tart; it a man wished en remain nominally the owner of ,but borrowing , money over and over again upon it, when in point of tact be had no real security to offer to the lender—it would not be possible for him to do au under the system of registration which it was proposed to establish. lie thought he had now stated sufficient to induce their lordships to give a second reading to a bill which he believed would effect a considerable improvement in the law relating to landed property in this eountry—a bill about which there was no mystery-, hut which was so clear and simple that any one might understand it. Lord BROUGHAM thought the thanks of their lord ships, and of the legal profession especially, were due to his noble and learned friend fur the pains he had bestowed during so mane years past to confer on all who had any dealings with landed property the inestimable benefits the I present hill contemplated. Of the general principles , of the measure everyone who had ever given a moment's thought upon the subject mu-t approve, but the whole question de pended upon the details; and it was quite possible that a person approving of legislation might say of any measure, this is not the plan which will meet the ditfieulty." Ile hail no doubt, however, that his noble friend would listen to any proposition for affording ample time for the fullest consideration of the details, and give due attention to any suggestions that might he offered. The various objec tions which had been urged against the bill had been fully stated, and he must add most triumphantly disposed of by his noble and learned friend. With regard to the objection of compulsory disclosure, he did not think there was much in it. Of the measure generally he would only now say that he believed it would confer inestimable benefit* on the country, and he hoped it would be but the first step towards a system of gradual, and therefore safe, improvement in the law as it respected real property in , this country. To effect such improvement, however, they ' must steer clear of extreme opinions—on the one hand, of the opinion s of those who were opposed to all change, and, un the other, they must as carefully avoid the opinions of men whom no alteration and no change would satisfy as not going far enough. Lord BEAUMONT, as being the only member of the mortis' commis-ion from whose report this measure hail in part emanated, wished to be permitted to offer a few obser vations. When that commission concluded its labours, he confessed that he was astonished to find that no system fir the registration of dee& had been established in this country at an earlier period. Ile entirely concurred in the two main principles of the bill, viz., a general register, and the registration of the original deeds, instead of memorials or copies. Any objections which might otherwise have been urged against the general or central registry were altogether removed by the facilities for immediate and instant rim munkation which the post-office and the electric telegraph afforded. With regard to the question of publicity, he saw no disadvantage iu the public being able to ascertain that such a property belonged to such a person, and only such a property ; but the proposed system did not necessarily insist on any publicity, or more publicity than exieted at present. Another iniportant point, and, as he considered it, a great feature of the bill, was, what was called in the:mport of the commission, the " cancellation "of deeds. Ile thought it highly desirable when instruments were no longer of use, having satisfied the object for which they had been drawn, and the interest they created hail become extinct, that they should be at once done away with, and that in all future taaminations in regard to the property to which they re haid there should be no trouble or expense in linking over uwlesa drools and discharged mortgages. Another advan tage was that under this bill there would be a deposit department. This, of course, earricol with it the necessity of produting documents beyond what his noble and learned friend had captained. AU the documents would be brought into the registry office, and might be there referred to, and there were provisions in the bill rather, to compel all persons to bring theirekords iuto this deposit. That was when a person was ulsiut to deal with any property he could compel all persons interested to bring in their deeds into the deposit department—not, of course, with the view of giving each deeds priority, but that account might be taken of them. Then, again, he considered the caveat which Was provided for by this bill would he most useful. The entering of the caveat, when property was purchased, would answer all the purposes of a coutract, and would give security to the purchaser against any deed not deposited within a limited time. Another way in which the caveat would be useful—it was a nut %infrequent practice to raise money on the deposit of titlealeols—now, a caveat would du just as well as the deposit of the deeds. Lord 11110U0 HAM—As an equitable mortgage. Lord BEAUMONT—Yes, as an equitable mortgage. 'aving referred to, and declared his approval of the other provisions of the bill, the noble lord observed that the necessity for some such provision was obvious, for without it no one would buy land from a trader. So much for the details the principle, the great principle fun' which he had always struggled was, that in all eases the interests of the bone fide purchaser should be sesvnrl ; and he believed that that principle might be fully GOTivil out without injury to any party. Lord (ALAN WOR had only one observation to make, and that should he addresesl to those member', of their lonlshire hmese who had not been brought up to the legal profession. Ile wished to, impress upon them that the great advantage of the hill would he, that under the register the thing to be proved would be a positive, nut a negative, pro position. At present all that was done was to prose a ne gative, the non-evistenee of any 1114.11% affecting the land, the register would VOve the existence of such deeds as gave a sound title to the purchaser. (Hear, hear.) The bill was then read a second time. Lord CAMPBELL congratulated their lordships upon having affirms! P.O important a principle. As the details were still stab jedice, be thought the hest course would he to refer the bill to a select committee. Bill referred arcordingly. Their lordships adjourned at 10 minutes to 8 o'clock. HOUSE OF CONIMONS.—NIONDAT, MARCH 17. The Sett.tke.o took the chair at 4 o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. SECOND It.E.%I.DNGS.•-.Anchor Assurance Company (No. 2), East Stonehouse Waterworks, General Iteversion lay and investment Constants., Ilexthrote's Divorce, Mae lean 's INvorce, Warkworth Darbour Dock Company; Bills. DurkinKham's Compensation Bill was postponed to Mum dav next. ...—.—.. SMITHFIELD MARKET ENLARGEMENT BILL. Sir J. DUKE moved that the order of the day fur the second reading of this bill he postponed to that day week, which, after some conversation, was Lttotti to. PUBLIC BUSINESS. . .... PAYMENTS B CE FROM . BISHOPS TO TILE Ere 1, Est.tsr teAL COMMISSIONERS. _ Numenius las titions, inrludit.g a great number on Papal Airrissihm and the Ecclesiastical Titles Assumption Bill, haring been presented, Sir B. BALI. moved for a return of copies of all corre stsindence or communications between the ecclesiastical commissioner. and the Arehbishop of York, the Bishops of St. Asaph. Bath and Wells, and Ely, in respect of the sums' due from .ich archbishop and bishops to the ecclesiastical commi.ioners, as set forth in the third and last Report of the Ecele4astical Commissioners for England. page 54, viz.: From the Arebbi.hop of York. 2,3171. 14s. 2.1. ; Bishop of St. Asaph. 1,661/. Os. 10.1.; Bishop of Bath and Wells, 3,49.1/., Bishop of Ely. 9.212/. 7s. 3d.: total, 16,7161. 2s. 3e1., with the date, of such correspondenee or communication, and the when the sevenil sums were in all or part parable, and any minutes of the commissioners thereon. ordered. ;4 . 7 . N . DAY TRADING PREVENTION BILL, Mr. BARING WALL gave notice that on the order of the day bring read for the second reading of the Sunday Trailing Prevention Bill, he should move, as an amend ment, that the bill be read a second time that day six months. WESTMINSTER BRIDGE. Sir R. INGLIS inquired what course the government intended to take with regard to the removal of Westminster Bridge, and w►ether they proposed acting upon the recom mendations of the committee which had considered this subject last sessiom Lord SEYMOUR replied that there was no doubt that the committee had reported that the present bridge was unsafe 1 but that the question had arisen as to the site of the new bridge, and the evidence on this point being deemed unsatisfactory and inconclusive by the government, it had been determined to appoint a commission to investi gate the matter, and in a few days the names of the memben of that commission would be communicated to the house. TILE ROMAN C4THOLIC BISHOP OF NEW OUNDLAND. Mr. B. COCHRANE begged to put a question to the Under Secretary for the Colonies. Recently the Roman catholic Bishop of Newfoundland had, in a public docu ment. announced himself as, " by divine grace and be fa vour of the holy sec Bishop of Newfoundland. - Had this fact been communicated to her Majesty's government ; and, if so, what coarse had her Majesty's government taken ? Mr. LABOITHERE returned that his hon. friend (Mr. Hawes) had not been able to attend in his place ; but from information furnished to him, he (Mr. Labouchere) was in a position to answer the question. It appeared that in September last a denote* was received from the Governor of Newfoundland referring to a letter written by the bishop I of Newfoundland. in which attention was drawn to the fact I that a newly-appointed Roman catholic ccelesiastic had styled himself in public documents as " by divine grace, and I by favour of the holy apostolic see, Roman Catholic Bishop of Newfoundland." The answer returned by Lord Grey I was written in betober. and in this, that noble lord referred, by was of reply. to despatches of March, Ifitd : July. ISIA ; and March. lAA, on the subject of Roman catholic prelates in the colonies ; and added that the prefix of " Rom In cathodic" to the title of the Roman catholic Bishop of NewtOundland rendered the assumption in I question of no importance. Air It. I.IIIGLIA asked if that despatch, giving this answer, would be laid on the table ? Mr. LABOCCHERE saw no objection to doing so. SUBDIVIIPION OF PARISHES. jar. 8. HERBERT wished to know fsno the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) what course the government would take in reference to the report of the commission appointed hat year on the subject of the sub-division of parishe,. Would the bill withdrawn last Attilioo be re-introduced this Tear? Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the bill was Nang Ye =dolled; but* lad &uranium:at of Ws doubtful clams had not yet been made. The bill would be introduced, in that or the other house, before Easter. METROPOLIS BUILDING:: BILL. Alderman SIDNEY asked when this 101 l would be pro- the hon. member for Bucks was most wrong, for he was totally unacquainted with the whole matter, but wanted to get up some charge against the Colonial-office, and he • actually made out a reason on behalf of the Imo. member for Inverness which that hon. member himsell had never indicated. lie honoured the man who would bring a great criminal to justice, but he could not say that he ho noured one who, when he had made his ne:usation, skulked from the performance of his pledge. (Hear.) Sir B. HALL thought the house would feel that the noble lord could not bring forward the financial and other great affairs of the country while such a motion was pend ing. ECCLESIASTICAL T ITLES TE. ILL.—ADJOURNED Mr. MOORE resumNl the debate on the second reading of this bill. He said that the right hon. baronet the Secre tary of State for the Home Department, in moving the second reading of the bill, had professed that he would clear the ground for the house to come to a proper understanding on the subject. The hon. member then animadverted on the shabby trickery that had Men manifested, and he then made an attack on the maiden speech of the hon. baronet the member for Tantworth, who hail raised such a dust that he had rendered the whole question more obscure than ever, and must have imbibed his opinions of the Roman eatholies from the low Jacobins of the continent. In addressing himself to the general question, he would ask, find, had any aggression taken place—had the late act of the l'opc been an as and hail it been expressed in language of an arrogant and insulting character? Second, hail it been a temporal or a purely spiritual aggression ? Third, if the Pope had been guilty of an aggression, had that aggression been one which he had reasonable grounds for believing would he offensive to the government and the country, or bail he not just masons for conceiving that it would not only be thought innocent, hut would he accept able ? Fourth, if any misconception or any error had arisen in the mind of the Pope, not with regard to the intentions or wishes of her Majesty, but with regard to the wishes, the prejudices, the feelings, or the opinions of the English pelple, had the relations we had maintained with the government or the court of Rome been at all calculated to remove it? In other words, did the blame lie with the Pope or with the government of this country? Fifth, in case the house should he of opinion that the case called for interference to protect the crown against foreign invasion and to vindicate the country against foreign insult, was the present proposition of her Majesty's government at all likely to elect those objects ? With regard to the first cfvded with. Lord SEYMOUR would flu an early day for the bill. GOV ERN a/ENT BU SIN ESS. Lord JOIIN RUSSELL—I wish to ask the hon. mem ber for Invents., (Mr. H. Baillie) whether he has made any nrramtement with other members for bringing forward the motion of censure on Lord Torrington and on the govern ment, in reference to the affairs of Ceylon, of which he has given notice for the 25th ? Mr. IL. BAILLIE—I have in the first plate to express to the noble lord my regret that I should have been absent from the house on Friday when he wished to put this roes tint to me. And in answering the question now, I must take the liberty of observing that the course which the noble lord has thought proper to adopt is one of which, I think, I have great reason to complain. The noble lord has stated that the motion of which I had given notice was a motion of censure upon her alajesty's government, and therefore that it is not his intention to bring forward the Meat financial measures of the government until that sub ject is duly disposed of; thus placing me not only in the invidious position of obstructing public huainess, but placing the motion itself, not on its real merit., but as involving a question of confidence or no confidence in the government. And I am represented as taking up this position at • time when the noble lord is well aware that no other party in the country is prepared to take office. (A laugh.) Now I beg to remind the noble lord that this is • question of long standing. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord has shown much virtuous indignation within a few days; but the noble lord must, neverthelesa, have been looking forward to this identical motion for the last two years. I myself gave formal notice of it last session ; and it was only in conse quence of the extraordinary course pursued by the govern ment in refusing to produce the evidence on which this motion is founded that it has been delayed so long. (hear, hear.) 1 think, therefore, that under these circumstances the house will he disposed to admit that I am not liable to the charge either of factious motives or of having brought forward this motion with any view of impeding important and necessary public business. (Hear, hear.) I can perfectly well understand the difficulties of the noble lord's position. 1 ran perfectly well understand that the noble lord is anxious to (scope from that position, and that, perhaps anticipating defeat on this motion, he does not wish to be put to the trouble of preparing and bringing forward those public measures which, us minister of the crown, it is his duty to lay before this house. But the noble lord is mistaken if be thinks I shell allow myself to be made the instrument of enabling him to escape from those duties which the situation he has assumed, and the great public exigency of the country, imperatively call on him to perform. The course which I shall pursue is perfectly clear. I shall, for the present, remove this notice from the books; reserving to myself the undoubted right of bringing it for ward again whenever I may think proper so to do; that is to say, whenever the public business of the country and of the house is in such a state that I may be enabled to do so without rendering myself °lino:jou; to the charge of inter rupting those most important measures—the financial mea sures of the government. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord had stated the other day that he had a question to put to him (Mr. Ilaillie). Bid the noble lied Mateo to ask any , thing at this time? Lord J. ILUSSELL.—The hon. geatleman is a little mis- I taken with respect to the ground upon which I stated the views I took of the motion he was about to bring forward. The hon. gentleman has for the last three years attended to ithe affairs of Ceylon, and he stated at the commencement on moving fur a committee that lie wished to pass a censure upon tine conduct of the Secretary of State and of the local governor, and the hon. gentleman has continued in this opinion until now, and he wishes to luring forward 11 motion in conformity with his orinion. I cannot object to any hon. member taking that course ; I have no objection to it whatsoever—no one could object to it. But that which Ido object to—and that I have a right to object to—is, that any hon. member of this house should bring forward • pro position involving a charge of wanton cruelty against the late governor of one of lie r Majtst y's possessions, and that such cruelty hod been cenmitted under the full sanction of one of her Majesty's Secretaries of State—that that hon. member should make such a charge and then should not immediately bring forward his motion. (Cheers.) I cm say that nut only among the numerous precedents of accusations, but I among the motions of censure which have been brought for ward in this house, there has never been a single instance in which an hon. member of this house has brought forward that which is clearly a vote of censure on u great depart ment of the government, when a Secretary of State at the bead of it has refused or refrained [ruin bringing forward his motion immediately afterwards. (Cheers.) 1 con cluded from the speech of the hon. member for Inver ses., that he was anxious to bring forward his mo tion—he had framed his own motion—upon that day which he himself had named. (Hear, hear.) 1 could not have supposed that he would not have brought I it forward on that day. What I did suppose—and was .011(11114 in supposing—was that a government with such a thing as a vote of censure hanging over their heads, and such an opinion expressed as that which had been pro -1 nouneed against them, could not begin any great nunisure that hail not yet been introduced into that house; but that they must pause; and deter those proceedings until that motion had been brought forward and settled. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the late transactions it has been said—and justly said—of all the parties in this country, who may b. expected to desire or to assume the administra ' of the government of this country, that their conduct has been perfectly fair and honourable— (cheers)--that in their conduct there was no passim', or animosity, or personal dissatisfaction. (Hear, hear.) I rejoice at this being the opiidun of the public, and the feel ing of those who were engaged in those transactions. But, with respect to the conduct of a great party, who say thin they have a elisirwu of great cruelty against her Majesty's government, and against a noble lord lately the governor of one of the colonies of this country, and that they hare a charge also against the Secretary of State for sanctioning that cruelty, and who say also than they will keep that charge 'suspended over us, indefinitely, avowing that they will nut tell us when they will bring it before the house hear.)-1. must say that, in my °tannin, such con duct, tested by the principles guiding ordinarily fair and honourable conduct, mast, in regard to such a motion as this, be greatly blamed. (Loud cheers.) Mr. DISRAELI said he must remind the house that at that moment most important documents which had been subs mitred to the committee on Ceylon were not before them, together with a mass of evidence, recently given, all of which must be necessarily produced in order to enable any hon. member to form an opinion on the subject. Nor was that all. These important documents would not be ready, as he was informed. for a fortnight. Under the eirtum stances the noble lord nerd not he surprised that his hon. friend, the member for Inverness, hail brought forward this motion. Let the house remember that this 1111/1 a grave judicial inquiry; that his hon. friend was about to ask them fur a verdict on the conduct of a governor of one of the colonies, and upon the administration of the government of Ceylon, and that hon. members would not be in a position to entertain the question if the documents neces sary to enable them to form an opinion were not produced. The house had only that moment received the evidence of two years, and then the Under Secretary said he would not be able for upwards of a fortnight , to produce all the documents in possession of the cont. I mince. The house being in this position in regard to the evidence taken before the committee, the noble lord got up, and in • tone of virtuous indigna tion complained to the house of what he called the unfair conduct of a great party. (Ilear, hear.) The I noble lord would have wished the house to arrive at a judi cial decision in the absence of documents and in the ltb sence of the party whose policy was peculiarly implicated ; hut his hon. friend the member for Inverness had taken the course which good sense and right feeling dictated— (hear, hear) —and he appealed to the verdict of the country for his justification. (Cheers.) Sir G. GREY adverted to the difference between the arguments and conduct of the hon. member for Inverness, and his friend, letuler, and protector. He (Sir G. Grey) was in the house when that hon. member occupied a place atthe table, standing before the front bench of the opposition, and read distinctly, in answer to his name when called upon, the motion which he distinctly said he should submit to the house on the 2.5 th of the month. The hon. member might have named • more distant day, but he solemnly and em phatically rose upon his feet, and said that that was the proposal he should submit to the house on the 25th of the present month. (Hear, hear.) And now, when his noble friend asked the honourable member if he was pre pared to submit his charge against the government to the hoose, he did &sot say he was nut prepared to put It forward, but he said that he would not stand in the way of the important business which it was the duty of his noble friend at the head of the government and his colleagues to bring forward,—whereas the real reason now came out, that he was not prepared to bring it forward, and that he dared not, under present circumstances, bring it forward — but claimed for himself the right to bring it forward on some future occasion. But the hon. member for Bucks had I let out that when that motion was put on the paper the hon. member for Inverness knew there was not the slightest chance of bringing it forward on the day he had fixed. (Hear, hear.) He was justified in animad verting upon such conduct on a question involving a rru.t serious imputation—(hear, hear)—and he hoped that this proceeding was not an indication of the spirit in which this inquiry would be commenced and acted upon by the hon. gentleman and his friends. (Cheers.) Mr. ROEBUCK said that the zro, w llena hole transaction gave hi gowani m .edthrn m .gr uj :, h ,tuw p tcredi ain heTn as thhtoe a eh tf hinue. ec w. tin ni g ieptyn t ryt h hbep e earred.f. good f n i fde it nith h wee: o ri f upp the reropay.dd re e v o i l e on ial now, bring to t n rh o :2 1. ni. administration c , hi e y h o s a f t bringing char g e ohe t large d: itnt ag a i nst n o, e oraf il forward,tdhr that e trulyt hTh administration e u o r , no n d b l4 l , e that ln charge h r lord had . 7l i l e,ttah swi otiwticceah h: given d,ninootf fact, affected the whole of the government. He was not prepared to say that under the circumstances the noble lord had not a claim upon the house as in former days. But the noble lord spoke of present weakness, and beeiuse of that treaties* the great interest* of the country were to be sacri ficed—(hear, hear)—and the hon. member for Inverness was allowed to hang over the head of a man who had long re presented this country in one of the colonies thereof with vague charges yolich he solemnly stated he was prepared to rpoaes— be (l in o ,u u th d rui : e cheens)— tt h hh a ee n dcg great buteit character so w f fur t...n eo c make. and the knowledge of which he had stated before hand or certain i t e hnecoP representativesnr tt party country were u c co ed lon a i n e ! held up to odium upon statements and quibbles. # ap peared to him that both parties were wrong. The hon. member for Inverness had made a distinct charge, and it was wrens to withdraw it. But of all who were wrong, particular, he (Mr. Moore) acknowledged that on act of , .eir church, spiritual aggression had been committed, and that in the well as the two others. He was opposed to this bill also most decided manner—an act of aggression the object of because it was a retrograde movement—it was going hack which was to facilitate the conversion of the people of the to the intolerance of the past century. He also up country to the Roman catholic faith. He contended for the posed it because the net would be a delusion upon this right of every man in a free country to make such aggres- country. Let him ask her Majesty's government, or any shins, and promulgate his own opinions, provided these lowly who knew the responsibility of government, whether, were recognised and tolerated, and in religion particularly if they extended this bill to Ireland, they were prepared to such a license became a necessity. Aggression was the carry it out in that country ? Did they suppose or were vital principle el every Christian religion. It was they confident that, acting upon that bill, they would get the agaregive principle of Christ's teaching that any conviction from a Roman catholic jury in Ireland ? caused him to Ise nailed to the cross ; it was the Would they venture to appeal to them or would they aggressive nature of the preaching of his disciples which take the worse alternative of packing a protestant subjected them to persecution, and the Christian faith on jury to try • Roman catholic in that country ? earth would cease to be Christian when it ceased to be ag- (Cheers.) it was only the protestant bigotry of the gr.:give. It ill became the English to talk of spiritual ar- country, stirred up and fomented by the protestant ragtime, for there was no arrogance at all to be compared bishops and clergy themselves, es:eking to oppress to that of British protestants. What did they think of their rivals, which hail made the great outcry the language put into the mouth of their own Queen, they had heard. (hear.) More absurd still than even the to whom the Human catholics owed and were willing non-application of the bill to Ireland was its extension to to pay the must loyal obedience? Hail this ag- Scotland, where the only point on which persons of every grrasion been a temporal as well as a spiritual aggression on creed and every denominatiou were agreed was their utter the part of the l'ope ? It was impossible to over-estimate abhorrence and repudiation of the Queen's supremacy. The the importance or this branch of the subject, because if the right hon. baronet the Secretary for the Home Depurtment recent act of the l'ope were proved to be an invasion of the had told theist that the protestant bishops of that country sovereignty of the Queen, he did not believe there were to be exempted ; but could anything be more unjust was one in the house who would not protest or more monstrous ? The episcopahan bishop in Scotland against it, es absurd and insulting. The matter was in precisely the same position es Dr. M•Halc in Ire involved a grave charge, not only against a foreign land ; both Ind assumed titles unfounded in law ; and yet, prince, but a large portion of her Majesty's subjects, and when the right hon. baronet brought in a bill to punish some onus of proof lay with those hon. members of the Dr. Wattle, he proceeded to put into his measure a house who called tier legislative interference. He had not clause to exempt the protestant bishop in Scotland from only listened to speeches made by hon. members, hut he the same penalty. lie repeated that nothing could be had 54611.61, read theta over, and compared them, lead he pro- more monstrous or unjust. (liver.) lie believed the noble tested that he could not find a single speech of importance lord had propounded the bill solely for the puriewe in which it was even asserted the Queen's ravcreiguty had of bolstering up the protestant church in Ireland—a church been invaded. The honourable member then rep- which had been admitted by the universal verdict, he might plied himself to the refutation of some remarks made ahuost say, of all mankind, to be based upon injustice, 'by the noble lord, the member for Ilath (Lord Ashley) ; and to be nothing but a badge of cunquen. (Hear, hear.) the hen. and learned gentleman, the member for Ox- If such were really the object of the bill, that alone was a ford (Mr. P. Worst), the hon. baronet (Sir rt. Inglis), good reason why they should vote fur its rejection. (Cheers.) land the Attorney- General. He (Mr. Moore) argued that But somebody said that it was intended to protect the pro the claim of spiritual jurisdiction by the Pope over testant church of England. That question had been every baptised man, was the same as was set mooted before the passing of the Emancipation Act in up by other classes of religionist+ the same ISItl, when a gnat number of respectable old gentlewomen as the bishops in England and Scotland and the were dreadfully afraid that if they admitted catholic!, within bishops of the ° anti-national " church in Ireland the pule of the constitution the protestant church would be hail always act up, and he contended that the limn:in elsiken to its centres to another place an amendment was catholic body was quite justified in setting up the sane proposed respectieg the assumption of titles by the Roman claim of spiritual jurisdiction. Ile went on to inquire if catholic*, its principle being very similar to that of the pre= this , aggression had been one which the Pope hail reason• sent bill. On that occasion the Duke of Wellington dy able grounds fur conceiving would be offensive to the dared, in supporting the amendment, that it would be no English people ? On Olio point he remarked that the noble security ; but the clauses were introduced merely for the lord (Lord J. Rusted!) had acknowledged that he had satisfaction of those who were disturbed by the assumption said all lie had bseu accused of saying, and that all lie of such titles. (Hear, hear.) In like manner the Earl of (Lord J. Russell) was now doing was in direct contradic- Malawsbury objected to the clause on precisely the same tion to what he had formerly said. Giving instances in grounds. Ile had opposed the bill ; and he said that to support ofthis assertioa, he cams, then to the next point, and have kept Rumen catholic", out of parliament would have he asked if any error or iniwoneeptionliad arisen in the mind been a real security. But, that hating been lost, his lordship of the Pope, nut with recant to the government, bat with declared that to call these clangs* a security was a joke end reference to the ot ai aa ious of the people of this country; had worse than is joke, because they would tend to keep alive the mignons we hail maiutained with the court and smvern- that irritation which it Was the object of the hill to prevent. 'emit of Rome been such as to prevent the possibility of (Ilea, hear.) It was quite clear the noble lord would not such misunderstanding ? lie (!sir. Moire ) maintained have ikun the steps he had in reference to the papal ag that in this agitation those who sought to inflict fresh disa- gression," had it not been for tractarianism. They had all bilitics on the members of the Roman catholic faith were heard a great deal about the Rev. Mr. Bennett, of whom fighting with an imaginary evil. lit conclusion, he lie wished to speak with the greatest possible respect. A would ask if the bill proposed by the noble lord (Lord great outcry had been made about him bccause it was said J. Russell) was the hest measure to prevent arrommcc. it that he had exceeded the l'rayer-book. 'They were told appeared to him to effect no purpose' whatever. 'ho enact a that they must screw Mr. Bennett down to the rubric; but statute :wailed the assumption of ecclesiastical titles was nut lie asked them whether there were not a gn at many more to pass a law against foreign aggression. (Hear, hear.) clergymen in London whom they ought nut rather to screw It aft, eted nut the kreign power, but their own subjects, up to the rubric ? (Cheers and laughter.) 11c would and the real art of which they complained, the division of give them one or two instances. In the first place, every the country out" diucuses, it did not affect at all. It rip- hody knew that the Prayer-brook was nothing more not lies pealed to him that a resolution of both houses, QS suggested thou an net of parliament. (No, no.) Well, it was at all by Lord Aberdeen, would have met the question of foreign events the appendix to the Act of Uniformity; and aggwasion and the assumption of titles 'armor,: diractly then the rubric was a part of the statute law of the this loin. By enacting statutes which were not intended to land. Now, in a commentary upon the Prayer-book, be earths' into effect, or, what was far more fatal, intended by Mr. Stephens, published by the Ecclesiastical history to lie carried into effect in one part of the country only and Society, of which Prince Albert, three archbishops, and fit not in another, he said they would commit a far greater teen bishops were patrons, it was stated that the holy titbit, aggression upon the national dignity than was gam/tined at One royal chapel of St. Jamey ~, and at the chapel of by the act of Which they complained. Trinity College, Dublin, was So placed that it was impos- Mr. WIGRAM said the great question was how far the sible tor the priest to stand on the north side as directed. present measure would invade the principle of religious (Hear, hear.) Again, it was well known that in order that liberty. The measure had been treated as if it were one a. members of the church might obtain correct copies of of little consequence to the country—as if it were one of the Prayer-book, the privilege of printing it was confined mere speculative opinion. lie was satisfied, at all events, to the two universities and to the Queen's printers. Mr. that was not the case ; and he stated that, not from any Stephens book showed that the Prayer-books pub opinious of his, but from history and the examples of limbed by all three were full of inaccuracies, and nations around them. Wherever they found the It bosh that in an Oxford edition of 17911 there were no fewer system in operation there they would find the liberties of than 12,41.10 variations tram the scaled copy. (Hear.) the people supprus=ed, and wherever the aggressions of the The work of Mr. Stephens went on to remark that church of Rome were checked there they would find the the Attorney-General would only be acting in the strict liberties of the people upheld. flaring instanced various coon- discharge of his duty if he filed an information against the tries as showing this to be the case, he said he did not tbr a printers for a breach of trust, of which all were unworthy. moment say that thew consequences resulted from uny (Hear, hear.) He considered that the noble lord and the peculiarity of the ltomish faith. lie believed he could law officers of the crown might profitably exercise their seal sae, ar a protestant, much in that faith which was ex= for religious reform in correcting these abases without ex tremely erroneous, but he did not desire at all to impute tending it to the unhappy minority in this country, and to these peculiarities to the faith of the church of Rome. But the equally unhuppy majority in Ireland. (heer.) lie he did impute them to the ecclesiastical system. lie supposed that it would be no use to implore the noble lord found that that system affected uniformly all countries in to pause ; but if he still persisted in his measure, he might which it was in operation • and he believed the cause to be depend on meeting with opposition in every step he took. adequate to the results. Ile thought these instances were No doubt the intended persecution was nothing to what very strong ; they gave an example and instruction to the the people of Ireland had suffered; but still it affected them ' government, front every state in which the Itomish system iu what they held most dear. Anything that interfered with was found, that without infringing on the free exercise of their religious institutions was not only disagreeable to his religion by every subject in the land, the progress of them, but they felt that it disgraced them in the eyes of the that system should Mt watched and put under restraint. world, and therefore that they would be slaves, and worse But he would go to the question whether the recent move- than slaves, if they submitted quietly to a law such as this. meat on the part of Cardinal Wiseman, in the introduction (dear, bear.) Ile did not wish to use exciting language, of the papal bull into this country, called for legislative in- for he had too large a stake in the country ; but he warne t terfirence. Now, certainly, he did not consider that them that this measure would be the straight and open road anything in that movement, so fur as it was purely and to rebellion in Irelaud. if they persisted in that bill, its clearly a religious movement, did call in any way for effect would be to declare war with the Irish nation ; and in . egislativc interference. lie was the last man weo would such a case, upon the government, and not upon them, be wish in any way to interfere with any purely religious the responsibility. (Cheers.) motive by any act of the legislature. (Cheers.) Mr. H. D. SEYMOUIt intimated that he should not But this movement had an aspect of a very different so soon have claimed their indulgence, as a new member, character. The challenge had been thrown out, and it but that he was anxious to express his opinion upon the im was asked how this movement was to be termed an ag- Isortant bill before the house. It was his intention, then, to gression. lie believed that it was an aggression, and that give his firm opposition to the measure, notwithstanding it was an aggression on those principles which ought to be that with the general policy of the government he held very sacred in this country, and especially by Roman cordially agreed. (Cheers.) He was well acquainted with catholics. The basis of the compact on which the r:manci- the almost superhuman efforts which were being made by pation Art was passed in 1829 was this , it was admitted by the Roman catholics to spread their religion not only in Roman catholic, that in respect of temporal matters the this country, but throughout the whole world; but from Pepe of Rome bud not, and could not have, any power or that circumstance he rather should draw consolation, be authority in this country. He could not look at the intro- cause he thought that a by no means inadequate and in duction of this bull into this country without considering it judicious effort had been taken to resist them. (Cheers.) as a direct infringement of that pnnciple. He considered it Ile was aware that this crisis had not come upon them - so upon the grounds which had been already stated, and expectedly. It had been fur a long time in agitation ; which could not be too much dwelt upon and studied. It and he remembered that ten or twelve years ago, at Was stated that the object, and the sole object, of introduc- a time when the Roman catholic, were preying for the ing this bull into this country, and the cstublislunent of the conversion of England, they were considering that 0 i hierarchy, was to introduce into this country the canon nation which was beginning to take effect amongst us. law, which assumed a direct interference in respect to tem- (Hear, hear.) He thought the bill was wholly n • ffi poral matters in this country. Cardinal Wiseman dis- cient. It was a violation of civil and religious liberty to tiuctly avowed that to be the object. In his pastoral interfere with bishops, but he would have an enactment to monastic e d s ee ta p b i l y ish a m n e d in c s . .. " (Hea di r d .) rd No d custom had inot another re constitution o 1 two d address the cardinal said the canon law could be intro- restrain the number and look carefully into the ge chEcoituheldt ,ever me meat t struck o f m it t d h a e cc h •d dl i y nt s i this e ., e m ust country loos only an y supply all wants, but which would be necessarily limited, ' society on the continent than this. Happily the • or the complete constitution of the church must he at once I was falling off on the continent, especially in France, and . extended to England, so far as was compatible with her if the people of this country were so infatuated as to go social position; but in order to adopt this second and more overtotheJesuit party itwaselesirablethatlegislative restrics natu ryral course one condition was necessa •, and I dons should be impiric:d. He knew that be perhaps hazarded that was, the catholic-1 must have an hierarchy, his sent for an E 1 . h borough by speaking thus • 1 ng li , out us plainly as the canon law was inapplicable under vicars apostolic. about the Roman catholic" , he had not dams so in private It was plain then that the court of Rome determined not lif e , but now f e lt it hi s d uty . to do it. (liter to iutroduee another constitution applicable to vicars epos- I Mr. Gof the OULBURN said that much •.) speech of the hon. tolic, because that would have been difficult, and that member for Cork (Mr. Roche) would have been quite ap the hierarchy was introduced solely with the object of en- i propriatc, had the question been about renewing the privi forcing the canon law. It was also clear that the canon . ledes of the universities. He could not agree in that hon. law assumed, in direct violation of the prine:ples of thee' gentleman's opposition to the bill. If he thought it an on cmainipati act, the power of the Pope of Rome to inter- ' i innovation on the art of ISM, he would note el • it his support. I fere in ryniect to tenesoral matters. And the doctrines of : (Hear, hear.) H e had been a p ar ty to the framing of that , the canon law were nu antiquated doctrines ' • they were ; compact between the Roman catholic body and the people I still recognised and insisted upon. Another met t and dis • ' of this country, and be would not knowingly allow either one , ground for interference was the assumption of territorial - party or the other to depart from its provisions, or consent titles, which he, fur one, concurred in saving was a viola- to its spirit being violated.ln the • present bill there was tion of the prerogatives of the crowns These titles might -n o suc h v i o l a ti on o f th e compact then made. The act of be earlesiastical ea part, but they were certainly also tern- 1829 contained a direct and specific prohibition of the pond. It was thl. exclusive right of the Queen to comer ' assumption of the titlesof territorial titles in this country, and the Pope of Rome had 6 bishop of the Roman catholic church, and it was not pre no more jurisdiction to appoint a bishop with temporal • tended that there • even now was any wish to extend the power in this country than any fonign potentate had to numberof bishops in Ireland, or to assume titles not introduce a foreign noblemaa with e territorial title. -It had lalready prohibited by the act of 1829. And when the hon. been strongly insisted upon, and he must say that had sum- ' gentleman (Mr. Roche) said, with a kind of threat, that in prised Jim, that whatever at one time might have been . any attemptenforcethis prohibition catholic juries the effect of papal interference, them Wall IWO ground to a 'would to P - not be found to convict persona indicted under the ptehend mischief at the present day, and that the Pope at law as it stood, he did not act fairly by his Roman catholic the present dey was a religious and not a temporal pontiff countrymen in imputing to them that they would not hr. ss ! But he must say he had been able to find no symptoms ready to fulfil the provisions of a solemn contract entered that the power of the Pope of Rome had not been as mis- into fur their special benefit In 11e29, as any chievous in this as in former days. In some countries h nest protestant would be. The act id the p opc , indeed it had not; but that WAS bemuse it had been kept war undoubtedly an act of aggression • but, taken i n a, under due restraint. Then it wan said this bill would be `religious sense, he was not prepared to led with it, for he an invasim of the principles of religious liberty. The Roman held that the believers in every religion, if sineure in their eatholiesantnedusif they werethegreatupholdereofreligioue .belief, were necessarily aggressive. He objeutisl to the act liberty. It was not for him to say that individual Roman !of the l'ope, because it was an act of civil ag . catholic , did not entertain thieve views, hut he was sure I gressinn ; it invaded the prerogative of the crown they were not the views of Roman eatholice generally. by dealing with territorial titles which beh•cured Ile thought they would protect themselves by this measure Ito the crown wily. it was an attempt, in the from any imputation of having acquiesced in this move- first instance, to invade the privileges of the established ment. If they acquiesced in it it would he but the step- church, and assail the protestant religion. The measure ping-stone to another, and then they would be told that was one utterly unprovoked by any act on our part with they should have objected to it at the present time. The respect to the Homan catholic... (Ilene, hear.; li e h a d right principle in all cases of this kind was rrincipiis (Ado. heard it said that this act of the Pope was in name.. for One word with respect to the measure. lie did not think some supposed misconduct of the noble lord oppo s ite, i n it ar comprehensive an it might have been. Ile thought it lending himself to some feeling in Rome which the Pope should have prevented the introduction into this country of was anxious to euppress; but he did not bdil`Ye that such any bull of the lope, and that it should have given power a feeling had actuated the Pope, though he had heard it to the government by proclamation to prevent any move- front authority. Be that as it might, the eeelesicstieal AT ment of this kind. Believing, however, the measure Wbe rangemeut which it was proposed to introduce here wag undertaken in a sound spirit, he was prepared to give it his conwyted with a civil power which might disturb our peauw humble support. and defeat our internal civil policy. (Hear, le .tr.) When Mr. E. B. ROCHE had the strongest objections to this , was there a period when there was less disposition on the measure. Re objected to it, first and foremost.hecause the bill part of that house or the country to give t.; the if they pawed it would be an infringement of the Emanci • Unman catholies equality of privilege, and to with pation Act ; and he held that, if there was to be anything draw everything which could look like a cement like faith in public men and public acts, the Emancipation or distrust of them ? Every year almost had icrn marked Act was the charter of the liberties of the Roman catholic, by some new concession—(hear, hear)—by the withdrawing in England and Ireland. The Emancipation Act gave of laws which were obsolete, hut which were supposed to Itoinan catholic.; power to take titles from any place not reflect on the character of oman catholic*, and the only occupied by bishops or archbishop; of the established reward for these concessions was a measure from the cove church. That was recited in the preamble of this bill, reign Pontiff which wax an invasion of the royal preroga which then went on and enacted that they should not live. (Hear, hear.) This measure, unprovoked as it was, take a title front any place in the United Kingdom. That, WAS not necessary to the exercise of the It.•man catholic he ands natal, was 1111 infraction of the Emancipation religion. fled the case been such that the Homan eatholica ' Act. The right hon. baronet Roil her Majesty's government could not have eceledastical sup erintendenee without the said they meant to alter this bill, and did not intend that it adoption of such a measure, he should have been content should be so stringent As it was when they first brought it to sacrifice much in the way of objection. But that was in, and that they had omitted two clauses. Now he doubted not the caw,. As to the mode in which this aggress ye ry much whether by erasing tl wee clauses they hiul improved sion had been met, he did not, by the vote ho the bill. The right hon. baronet said he had been intormed war about to give, approve of the whole course that that the thirst and fourth clauses interfered with the robin- had been taken. More moderation on the part of the tars endowment by the laity of the Roman catholic church, government in the first instance, and le,s disposition and by erasing thew. two clauses he proposed to take off that to aggravate the feeling thmughout the country in the restriction. Well now, if the right hon. baronet were sincere minds of the protestant body, would have led to a more in his desire to enable the Roman catholic laity to endow calm and deliberate discussion than had been obtained. their church, he was bound to withdraw the first c l ause as (Rear, bear.) And he could not but feel that the die- crepancy . be'tween the measure now proposed, and the original excitement, which the acts of the government had greatly tended to produce, was calculated to act prejudicially. (Hear, hear.) But he was not called on to madder what would have been his first course bad he been called on to deal with the question oh /neer. The bill was before them ; and after the feeling that had been eeproweed by the country, and his own judg ment as to the l'ope's aggression, he had to consider what was the safest course to pursue--to adopt the till or reject it. If the latter, had he the means oof introducing another measure which he thought better calculated to resit that power whore progress he thought it his duty to resist? If not, could he take a better mode of making a specific de claration that the measure of the Polk wan line aeainoot which the country felt itself bound to remonstrate with all its force and power, and to maintain reetrictions until the Pope, acting under better advice., Humid reetore the state of things which existed prior to his making use of this new weapon of annoyance and thereon' ? (Hear.) 110 night be told that that time never would arrive ; that when the l'ope hail once Made a rewript it was impossible for him to withdraw it. Ilistory and precedent showed that this was not the case. The Pollee if' he ;dewed, coould recal his hull constituting thew dioceses in England: ho could, if disposed to conciliate the good-will of this country, and the feelings of many of the highest members of the Roman catholic body of this country, who wen' entitled to the greatest consideration, withdraw the bull he had issued. Sir 11. W. BARRON feared that these diesertatioms, now of six weeks' duration, on papal bulls bail ae little tended to useful legislation an Miss Edgewoorth'e " flee:ly on Irish Bulls" had tended to improve the breed of cattle in Gal way. (Hear, hear.) It had done *come; it had raked up all the embers of religious diecord ; torn asunder tee, and set man against man where religious feuds were so tiling down into quiet. All the musty old decree" and bulls of he Itoruish church had been thrown in the teeth of Ro man catholics; one hon. gentleman had raked up the mas sacre of St. Bartholomew ; while another hail anticipated the excommunication of the Queen, awl the catholic church taking possession of all the church property in the country, and turning all the protestants into the highway. (Laugh ter.) This would be ludicrous, if it wen: not lamentable, to see such statements sent forth to alarm obi ladies and tho vulgar multitude, who were taught to belies. , that if Car dinal Wiseman was not put down there would in, a renewal of the fires of Smithfield. But did thew pereons for get that the horrors had not been all on one aide—that there had been horror, of Henry VIII., of John Knox in Scotland, moil of l'romwell in Inland? They should recollect there were two eel., to these eases of perseeution. It should not he exclusively set down to Roman catholies or prutietante, or to their respective creeds. It should be set down to its true meaning, pdities noel the infamous pawii.ns of man, which tempted them in the name of their religion to commit those atrocities. Were Roman catholim to Ike taunted with those horror, which had been committed in pest tines? It was unjust and indecent .in the ee day.: and men should reflect before bringing such matters forward for disco pion. For hie owe part, he lamented to see such subject., brought forward there. ( Lieer, hear.) It had been said that the Pope insulted the Queen by assuming temporal authority in this country. Now, he believed there never hail been oinything farther from the Pope's intention. It would be inipslitic for him to do 1111, seeing that he was aloout to establish a hierarchy in her realms. But there were many reasons why the Pope should conceive he was not ollering an insult to the Queen. In the first place, the Pope vs as coenisaut that, as the right hon. gentleman (Mr. fieulleini) had stated, this country hail been for a series of years engaged in removing all causes of complaint felt lov the Roman cm tholics of those countries. But it was stud the wording of the bull gave offence. Now the very emote words were wed in the Galway rmeript that were used in the West minster. (Hear, hear.) In fact, the very iroistionot effect had Wen used by the Pope on all such oceasions daring the last 300 years. It had been asked, " Why not go on with your vicar. apostolic, who conducted ecelmiustical affairs without difficulty or offence?" lii answer to that wm, that these things could only he judged of by Roman catholic., who, were the parties to he satietiod. Ile appealed to the signature of the noble earl (Antitolel unit Surrey). as also of those of the 3110 noblemen and gentlemen :merited to the petition to his holiness, requesting NM, three years since, to establish the hierarchy in the, country ; and which request at that period disproved the usurtion that the thing was now done for the purpose of annoy ing the noble lord the foreign secretary. (Hear, hear.) The protestants of this country, according to their ewe' showing, should prefer independent arelibishoope and bishops to vicars apostolic, who were dependent upon and remove able at the pleasure of the Pope. (Hear. hear.) The de graded state of catholic countries, and Italy in particular, hail been referred to by hon. gentlemen. But every country had its day. Who hue the popes and ecelesiusittee of the ldth century raised up literature from the condition in which it was plunged by the Goths, the Hums and the Vandals; and that at a period when England was in com parative obscurity ? (Hear, hear.) Could they not heist of Gregory the Gnat? Were not their police the patrons of such immortal names as Taxon, Ariortn, and Dante, as also of Raphael, Guido, and Dorninichino ? (Hear, hear.) But notwithstanding all that they were told, that Romanis= "confined the intellect and enslaved the soul," Franco could boast of a Richelieu, a Mar.arin, a Massillon. and a Fenelon. (Hear, hear.) And, coming home to England, what were their Henries and Edward., the conqueror. at Cressy and Agincourt? (Hear, hear.) Who established Magna Charts?—the proud catholic barons; and the infidel Hume, who never omitted an opportunity of railing at Rome, declared " that nothing forwarded the confederacy of the barons against King John so much as the concur rence of Archbishop Langton." (Hear, hear) Was it not their catholic ancestors who erected those glorious monuments of piety which studded the country all over—Salisbury Cathedral, York Minster, and the glorious pile, Vs edminster Abbey, which stood at their very door ? (Hear, hear.) But away with such. If the Queen had been insulted, her government Mad the power of sending an ambassador to Renee ; but as for the present paltry and contemptible bill, it wow food for nothing but insult, and its consequences would be to make Ireland a still greater difficulty than heretofore. (Hear, hear.) There would be no insurrections, but there would be a sum pieinn and n hatred of British domination. (lieu?, hear.) Mr. CALVERT (new member) said that he hoped the house would pardon the anxiety he felt in addressing them on the present question. First, with regard to the charge of persecution. No man in that house felt a deeper interest in the welfare of Ireland. He had often visited that country, and ha never returned from it but with an anxious and deep desire to see all the grievance., and cala mities which he witnessed in different pouts of that country removed. (Hear, hear.) And with regard to the Roman catholic* of England, they were as loyal and exemplary a body as could be found in the kingdom. (Hear, hear.) Hes could not forget that in the days of the Spanish armada great Roman catholic admiral was at the head of the fleet ; and that men of high rank and distinction, who were de alma, to serve as officers in the fleet, finding that the rules of the service prevented them from becoming officers, en tered the service of their country as private sailors and soldiers. (Hear, hear.) It was therefore with an anxious desire to do justice both to the Roman catholies of this country and of Ireland that he approached the subject. With regard to this being a retrograde step in respect to the act of 1829, he begged to observe that the act of 1829 we:spatted for the purpose ofestablishing the civil privileges of the Roman catholics. There was only one clause in that act which hail reference to the q iuestion of spiritual jurs - diction—the clause, namely, which laid a penalty on any prelate who should take the title of any see then existing. R was mid that this clause did not prevent prelates from taking titles from other places nut being ' existing sees. But considering that it was hish treason up to the act passed four yearn ago to affirm that any prince or prelate had spiritual or ecclesiastical jurisdiction within the realm, it could not be said that they were legislating against the act of 1829 if they pained a measure to cripple the authority of the Pope with respect to the crea tion of sees not mentioned in the act of 1820. (Hear, hear.) They had been charged, with persecution for ' attempting to legislate in this manner. But who originated the transaction that gave rise to the agitation? Was it not the person who crone conomiseioned from a foreign potentate, and who asserted spiritual autho rity over him ? (" No, no," and " Hear, hear.") Yes did not he come under the authority of a foreign potentate? —did he not erect a cardinal's throne in the neighbourbood of Lambeth ?—and did he not claim spiritual jurisdiction