The Express. — London, England, 1851-07-22 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, JULY 22, 1851. spinet the Roman catholic., bee ebeth. (The noble --- - spike of the injustice of 11OUSH OF LI/111/S.-NIoNrAT, JTLY 21. Roman catholic, with the 1.. The L its Crieeczteon took his seat at live o'clock. 11 ° n'lsihir for i the Homan n power to appoint ts own PETITIONS PIIESENTED. than the state allowed for the i Cover er. Per. sr r. -By Lord WILLOUGHBY )ER- dissenting church in the length) ESBY, from Cameroon; and Earl FITZWILLIAM, :tan cetholic church upon nnoth. from a piece net heard, in favour of the retention of the church. It was so regarded by Crystal Palace. was that it should have those I __ privileges . TURNPIKE ACTS CONTINUANCE BILL. were allowed to every dissenting church. The history e The house having gone into committee on this bill, this bill was rather singular. (Hear, hear.) lie had got The Earl of LANESBOROUG II proposed a clause, the with him three editions of the bill. It was no rare occur objeet of which was to prohibit the u.- of carts dawn by gener that a measure in its passage through parliament dogs on turupike Malls. should have many alterations made in it; but when her Ma. The Earl of MALM ESBURY opposed the clause, jetty's ministers, after mature consideration, had produced After a short conversation their lordships divided, when a bill which they thought adequate to the urgency of the the mealier' were: case, and which provided a remedy for this dreadful aggres- Contrite 27 skin, and when, after it was reed a first time, the proposer Nen-contents ,16.-ft.9 of the bill of their own accord deprived it of all that consti- INHABITED HOUSE DUTY BILL. toted its force and stringency, and then after another stage On the motion of the Marquis of LANSDOWNE, this bill allowed the bill to be not only restored to the strength of west through committee and was reported to the house. which they had deprived it themselves, but to receive ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES ASSUMPTION BILL. additional strength from the hands of their opponents, The order of the day for the second reading of this bill he did confess that this was a history of the having heels read, bill which was not very creditable. (Hear, hear.) The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, In "Bev* the second His first great objection to the bill was that it was at reading, after a few introductory observations, said that if variance with the true interpretation of the Relief Are. nothing had been done on the part of any foreign (Hear, hear.) By the 21tk section of that act it we Power calculated to throw dishonour on the crown, and enacted that if any person, after the passing of that at, iuterfere with the sovereign power, then he would say, re. other than the person authorised by law, should UMW in jset this hill, levees.: it would be unnecessary ; and it' there use any title or titles of a bishop or archbishop of esig me was anything in the enactments of the measurewhich in- or province, or of the dean of any deanery, in Enema et teetered with the practice of that religion which they Ireland, he should, for the tint offence, forfeit and pay the wished should he practised by those who professed it, then sum of 1001. Now, he said the fair logical inference of that he would ales say, reject the bill, because they did not provision was that the assumption of titles of any place not noon to withhold any pert of their religion or rights from the title of any bishop was not prohibited. The Relief Act their ItOMAII e3thUlle subjects. (Hear, hear.) But he was to give privileges, but it was coupled with a penalty, had to state, and he would do it shortly because all the and it was the universal rule of law to construe such an act farts were so well known to their lord: hips, that within strictly. They were not to criteria it to that which was not the last few months a Receipt and other documents had expressed. Ile had the honour of being a member of the appeared, ariernete, in alistenet and unqualified terms, the cabinet which prepared, brought in, and passed the right of conferring territorial titles in this country. 'this Relief Act. He would not undertake to say what were reghthed bet it practically assumed andurowed without )Ming the intentions of his Majesty's ministers with reference to received, accompanied, or forested by any explanation cal• that particular point, but this he would my, that when he cut:sled to mitigate the character of the assumption. had been asked why Roman catholics had bishops in Ire (Hear, hear) Now, was that assumption of any land and not in England, it never occurred to him that it importance, or was it wit ? He nerd not recite the terms of was illegal. He thought it was entirely owing to their own the hill which he had to propose, and which was a very short arreneements. But he had Another reason. Observe the one ; but the question he had to answer was, " why do you bill provided that no person should assume the title of any MOWS at all under these circumstances t " His reply bishopric already existing in England or Ireland. There WAS " because a movennut lies been made against us ;" and was no mention of Scotland. Why ? Because in Scotland because that movement was of no insignificant hearing or no person was in possession of any of those tides recognised ace, and Inc/114C great importance bail been at. by law. There were certain gentlemen assuming titles in =m tsl the terms used on this occasion in the assumption Scotland permitted to assume them, and therefore the law of these title.. (Hear, Leer.) It was easy to say that titles did not prohibit persons taking these or any other titles in were of no coneequenee, and the they were net necessarily Scotland ; hut it prevented them taking those titles which attended with insportance when they were utieccompanied ridded in England and !retried. lie thought this was de with power ; but he thought that if they were allowed to moastrative of the intentions of the framers of that act, be assumed unnoticed and unreproved, the time would come herause it would have been just as easy to pro when they would he renewed with power. One of the most pa- hthit the assumption of title; in Great Britain as it tnetic, learned, and dadinguished men which the, country world have been in England and Ireland. Ile wanted lied ever prealuced, Mr. Selden, passed • long and to know how was:a Roman catholic bishop in their laborious life in investigating the grounds Oh which lordships . ' eye and in his reietioas to the public different titles rested, and lie considered they were thing, which from a vicar epistolic ? had he more authority over them? bad a material effect, first no the imagination, and secondly did he take their money? did the law regard him differ no the actions of men, being as they were an emanation ently ? was there any difference whatever except in church then the monarchy, to the principles of which he was moat government? They talked of territorial titles. Why, they loyally attached. Ile knew that many of the wised people must describe the man somehow. 'they described the in this country bad attached contideruble importance to vicars apostolic as vicar, of certain districts embracing ca ttle.; and, if they did so to titles of a profane nature, how tails counties, and they must describe bishops as the much more should they to these of an ecelesieetis al the. bishops of districts alto embracing one or more Loan racier which a foreign power had to dispose of, and to die. ties. It was true the Pope might, if ho pleased, pow of by aaturaption only. (hirer, hear.) He had always have described these hisherst by parallels of lati telt it to be a wise previeling on the part of the government tusk and longitude; he must have some mode of oithis country, and more especially the foreign depart- informing the faithful who was the bishop placed over mint, that it heal WI steadily, and on some occasions so them. Ile said, therefore, that to talk of territorial titles ,illy, refused to allow foreign take and distinction• in as it a territorial title conveyed any righter any poseemiun, thes country, except in few and rare instances. was a complete mitapprehensiou of terms. The language 'they bad refused to do so because they lilt teat that of the rescript was in the ordinary language of the court of was the fountain of honour, nod that the riuntain Rome. Look at the bishops lately appointed ina friendly of honour should be reserved to the crown untouched. protestant state, where the l'ope had a concordat, the In fact thew who had been most disposed to noddle with beehive established in l'ruseie. Why every village in the the rights of the crows in other respects had exercised the most minute particular wag described as belonging to the most entire forbearance in this. They ni ser presumed to sees of those bishops. But of course they had no more interfere with what was felt to h, its first and exclusive authority or power became thew territories were described licerogutive namely, the right to iletenniee who should where spiritualjurialiction existed. They had no more autho wear and ;too shoal' use titles and distinction., of this na. rity than if, as he laid loeNre, the l'ope had described hare. (Cheers.) This was • thing of substance, though them by parallels of latitude and longitude. And when apparently a thing of form, and he hoped that their lord. the nettle marquis talked of thew bishops being established ,hips would deem it their duty to preserve untouched to the by foreign authority, why, there was nothing established crown that right which had MVO so distinctly and so eaten- that was not established by law. Them was nothing real tetemely steeled by a fifteen potentate. (Cheers.) But in this. Did they suppose that because the Pope had issued they who were resesting the proce e dings of a fereatn prince thew decrees, th erefore the law gave e ff ect to them ? had Lately hed an opportunity for recognising that bele- Nut at all. As far as we were concerned, this was no este retake, in other co untries. which thee claimed Inc them- blrihment at all; it had no existence, except in words, and eerie from this political power and all others. Net many could not operate in any di.gret whatever upon protest:ode. years had elapsed sine, we appointed a Bishop of Gibraltar But the noble marquis had discovered that there was not only and • Bishop of Juresalem; hut while we gave the Bishop an aggression against the honour und independence of the of (lihreltar, which lesilungea to oureilvio, territorial jurie- country, but that this act was illegal, WAS against the diction, we only gave to the !bebop of Jeruedem a personal ancieut law of the land. lie could not assent to that doctrine. authmity over such Christians in that part of the world as They lied revived an olsolete statute thet had slept for 2.10 might desire the benefit of episcopal euperintenelenee ; and years, and which, as tar as its application WAS concerned, that benefit he could not deny hi the Romen catholic sub• had been unknown for many generations. The noble jecre of this realm. (Hear, hear.) There were some marquis had quoted the case of the Lakes, which was the of our own church who admitted that proceedings only unhappy instance in which this statute had been put of an ifirntivii character hot taken place-who in fore: ; he had referred to that trial, and he (the Earl of granted the impropriety of the terms which had Aberdeen) would refer to it to show that the statute of pot. hewn enteloyea, Ina who, nevertheless, wi re "'Wine munire had no application to the act that had been per mdo nothing on the subject. 'they admitted thed the pule. termed. Whatever Ldot's case might have been, the pre he feeling had been strongly, and not unnaturally, excited, sent CAW was not applicable. If it iir.tv, it applied to vicars but who knew, they *said, that this feeling might not suer apostolic as much as to bishops, for LAMe himself was only stile t They edmithel th.st an offensive art had le en cum- a vicar apostolic, and wen proceeded against as such. If, matted by the meet of Rome, but who knew that it would as the bill declared, the appointment or these bishops lie followed up by any other alit, or that any dangerous was illegal, all that the bishop did in his rapacity of bishop ennertpellrell would ensue? But he (the u•thle marquis) re- was illegal, and be wee really afraid to encounter the cou pled, the 'surest way to produce thew et it tonoluencee sequences of this. 'I hey had been called upon to come to the and to maintain alive the agitation in this country would rescue of the Queen of Call realm. If there were eon he to allow to the people that parliament had determined to peril, must assuredly there were few in that house who do nothing. (loud cheers.) Now, could any one who had would more nimbly respond to that call than he should; observed the na. .r in which the court of genie hid been but believing that the danger was a mere chimera, he could feelmg it. way, both its spiritual and temporal matter, deny not for an instant listen to such a call us that. Ile wanted that the surest mode to incite further attempts of thin de- to know how the supremacy had been invaded. They wription would he to show the court of Rome that their surely could not expect the Pope to acknowledge the ecele loedships were not prepared to stand up for the iudependance eiasticel supremacy of the Queen, any more than they could 01 the country, or hi Papilla the national opinion when the expect him to agree to the Iteform then. The l'ope ac rights of the (T een hail been a...ail e d, (Cheese) In proof kneel...aged, no doubt, the temporul power of the Queen, that the exercise of the catholic religion in ite pro but her spiritual supremacy he did not :acknowledge. Fur• per embolic bens., and for legitimate eetliseic objects, tunetely the supremacy of the Queen was not the would in nu degree ho' impeded or embarrassed by this bill, Sllprelllley of liestry VIII., of that sanguinary the noble lord quoted the report of the law oft- creature who mete himself the Pope of this kingdom. ...ire an Laler's cm.,'. in which they state that they 'lnc 'ieas of that supremacy lied never been actually traced bed net peureciled against him, se they might out or deliwil. The eight reverend prelates ham found have il e and obtained a conviction under the later cod great .litliculty in describing it themselves. (Laughter, and precedent law of Elizabeth, but they heel pro:muted him '• Head.") In proof of this position the noble lord quoted wader one snarled 211) years before, when the king and the wonting of the different addresses from some of the high parliament were Homan catholic. That conetitutionel law church dignitaries, SA fur as they referred to the Queen's had only been Partially retwal.l for a particular object, in supremacy. This supretuatiy had been, after all, treated whet was called the Emancipation Act ; tie taw Emencipe- somewhat cavalierly by her Majesty's government some twin Aet which hal granted, and grautea wisely, immense year. ago. The noble I aid at the head of the govern ',mitre." to the Roman catholic" of the United kinadom meet had, among various device , ' to introduce Jews. las WAS universally submitted by the Rotuma eetholies them- into parliament. brought in a bill to repeal the oath of selves) still reservist to the crown the right to create supremacy. Well, if thcoath of supremacy had been some biehopries and appoint bishops to peniculer sec,. (Bear, thong so sacred as was euppoted by mein in these days, hoar.) By that art !Lenten catholic bishop. were prohibited it had been rather disrespectful treatment of it to from taking any titles under the court of 'Lime : but they , prop,so to repeal it so far as the members of both Houses of hod, nevertheless, setisfectorily heel aim I under it all refinement were concerned. Now lie begged to inform the the function, and duties of their office. lie appealed to house that this oath of supremacy was utterly rejected by their lordships recollection, whether, when the uct passed, the church of Scotland, and also by the episcopal church in they had not expressed their satisfaction cud gratitude for Scotland, and certainly her Majesty might number amongst it by a public declaration, in which they stated that the most loyal and attached of her subjects mane who de it hail conferred upon them inestimable privileges? (Hear.) need this supremacy. Although he would he disposed to He therefore thought it was too late now to tell them that or etiewe in that oath as far as he understood it, he really it was impossible to discharge the functions of the Boman thought that when all the religious denominations in Scot eetholic church under that act. (Churn.) The Roman ca. land utterly rejected it, it could not be raid that the act of !holies had been satisfied for years, their bishops exercised the l'ope was so very unwarrantable. Prelacy was abo their authority under the art in Ireland, laud with vicars - fi shed in Scotland, and was prohibited in term. ten titnes apadolir in England -and, by the wey, Ite had been in- more severe than any of their law, against Rumen catholic', formed that one-third of the Rollout cube., world was still and episcopalians were allowed to erect bishoprics in aluithistered under vicarsiapostolic-AMI there rare it was that country without anything being said against the too late for them to say that they wen• impeded in the ex. proceeding. It was not, however, to be thought that he effete of their functions. (Hear, bear.) His object, nu far disapproved of the treetmeut of the episcopal church horn interrupting, was to preterite their frictions; but be in Scotland. It met with his entire approbation, teetered that thew functions could be se eared without vie. and all he desired was that the same privilege's should he eating the rights of the crown. (Cheers.) lie admitted, extended to the It union catholic,. (Hear, hear.) He however, if he were asked whether he ceasieleted this bill would nut recognise Roman catholic prelates. lie would to he essential to the maintenance ref the protestant retie not give them any legal existence or authority, but he con, ho should answer no. (Clweri.) lie was one of would acknowledge them in the cone way as the episcopal those who thought that the protestant religion did not rest church in Scotland was acknowledged, and he did not know ter its rapport and for its strength upon net. of parliament, on what principle of (oarsmen sense or justice they could ..e upon the contrivance" of statesmen. (('heers.) But he prepare to act otherwise. It was said the prerogative of the was net the lementivineed that it was int male at upon palish crown had been invaded. He wished to know how it had meta to proclaim its adherence to its iniutiples, and its heel invaded. lie could understand the invasion, if the determination to support the crown in its privileges, con. l'ope bad appointed parties to come into that settee as thaw privileges were both with the state and the how, , and had given therm the meter of doing . hearth. (Chews.) tie thought it was their lordships' anything which interfered with the exercise of the anthm duty to their myerrign, amid to the people of this country, rity of the Queen. This he could understand. But that. thiakiate themselves secure in the sincerity of their when a prelate was only aimed Bishop of Birmingham or opinions, they should nevertheless recognise by this. declare. Itohop of Ilexham, they hel only to ignore the bishoprics, wry enactment what the privileges of the crown in con- as they did by this bill in the cue of episcupalians in Scot-1 section with religion had bees, and what they were laud. (Hear, hear.) It was true these human catholic 1 determined they should be. (Cheers.) He therefore cwt. hisliops wen named by a foreign prince ; but had they just 1 adored their lordships would do well to pass this bill, and he discovered that the Pope was • foreign prince ? That might trusted they would pass it by a large inejority. t Hear.) be a good reason against tokratine the catholic religion; lie believed there never was a moment when the but they had agreed to give them full toleration, and they people of this country were more resolutely de. heel Karma it with the full knewledge that bishops of the tenifined - ( th ews) -to maintain their own religious I Roman catholic church could be named by no other autho Imhof, and to maintain undisturbed and iaviolate by . ray cecept that of the Pope. (Hear , hear.) But then the say foreign power that most meted gilt of God insolence and the arrogance of the act were strongly dwelt to man -liberty of conscience mid the rigat to free inquiry. i on by the noble marquis. He wit nut theme to defend the I loud cheers.) He was not diepowd to withdraw any mewl- terms in which the act had been promulgated ; but lege from their Roman catholic fellow-subjects. 'they Ihe must say, that if they complained of the errors of ' might, if they chose, come into London and buiael a St. the rope, they complained of his character ; for such ' Pail's, although thin would not allow us to build a St. l things as were complained of were inherent in the character Peter's at Rome. (Loud cheers) He would give them of the mike. The terms used in the rewript were Urine more than they would concede to protestant. ; but, while he ; used on all similar occasions, as was perfectly well known wished that their privileges should lee undisturbed, they ' by all who were acquainted with the Langone: of the Ro sman set to ask that the prerogative-sof Engiiehmen. which , man court, and it was preposterous to think that by the were rimed in the crown, should he given up. (Cheers.) 1 words used any insult was intended 'o be offered to the Ile begged leave to move the second re.eling. (Loud crown and people of this country. (Hear.) lie knew a cheers.) • great cation lead been made by the p.istoral of Cardinal The Earl of ABERDEEN considered that, as Mr. 1 Wiseman. In that pastoral he had stated that he was ep ithelium,. observed in his e Constitutional History," pointed governor of a district and that he woutl "govern, ' us atid tsling wi Losertt religious sectaries there was no , but how '. govern r • Simply as a bishop in ordinary. warn persecutive and patronage. If i Mehl,/ If, however, the government and the country had they persecuted they must exterminate. if they tolerated , been so much enraged at the insolence of this iostruount, the,' must oinetion. (Hem, hear.) Fur 200 loOtr ye ars they i surely they proceeded in a strange way to meet it. The has tried their almost to extrimmate the Romeo cetholies i noble marquis heel said that we had nothing to do with the but they had failed, and sow, within the l as t 10 years . ' ' catholic" of this country-that our business was with a foreign they had adopted the course of toleration. This hill, hows '- power. But the measure would most certainly effect the ever, had not the excuse of the old laws. They were no Itenten catholics here. The Pope insulted this country, and doubt very unjust, but they legislated within their pr,. they in turn both insulted and oppnied the Roman since. Tan bill went beyond its Province . Surely the cathe ' lics re .(Cheers' 3 id - lieu hear ") pressed this offence , had cation of bishops was an stet purely spiritual. It was tr u e - been such as it was described , l it ' was an offence met by the re that we had beer accustomed to associate with th e id ea o f , palihe• law ' and one which ought to have been proceeded a bi s h o p the temporal incidents of baronies and th e like, ! .4/rime bythestate by diplomacy or otherwise. lie knew but a bishop was really not • title at all, but an office in th e it would be said that her Majesty'sg overnment were, to • ceurels. (Hem, hew certain .) But they denied to the Homan ea- extent, . precluded from takin g the course of diplee tholes the regular gove rn ment by bishop - . insteel of the ' wary by what lied happened in that boos iin ISIS, when ese e ptional government oh viemeeete.e... • -Lei ne betted a b •• •• hed ban bieu.eat in to establish di e hineitic relations the refore to refer to the stateureut ed 3 Ile:/:e lord (feat with :Ile elute of Iteene, and when a clans; any had beeia iatro the reception here of any nuncio from Grey) with regard to the repeal of the disgraceful statutes dor.ed prohibiting IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. searcely.be impacted to escape. If the bill continued to be anything bat a dead letter, there never again would be peace in Ireland, and on such grounds he concluded by moving that the bill be read a second time that day three months. Lord BEAUMONT said than the difficulty he felt in ad dressing their lordships apaathis 'abject did not arise front any doubt in his own alai Y is the course he ought to pursue, end it had been ram& in one respect by the speech just delivered by the wile earl, inasmuch as some of the points as whit* he lei wet dwelt, and the results he had anticipstai as. • meseure, were completely viriaaary, end ameaver be area tinned with respect to that =betease he UV* that some of the excuses OM Mak earl made for the conduct of a had. MO we rather the appearance of aggravations than arems. When the noble earl remarked that the usiApass et the semenment of this country towards Rama calm lad hem la encouragement to the Pope to loiol AO emu L lath pursued, he (Lord Beaumont) should Wait liossibleght that that very indulgence which had bests thaw la alma catholic* and to their religion I. this warier wield have been an inducement both in whom Oi interesity to that foreign court to ab stain hen e.g act that could be hurtful to the feelings WI the people or the dignity of the nation. By this papa act the bishops appointed could acquire no addition*, their spiritual character, while he conceived the attempt, considered in a temporal light, was an infringe ment of the law of nations. The argument which certain cutholics derived from the infallibility of the Pope he would entirely reject, for that doctrine was not catholic, but Roman, and the claim of infallibility was mere usurpation. (Hear.) He wanted to know what was the change in spiritual character which had taken place—to ascertain what was the difference in a spiritual point of view between the Iposition of the bishops as they formerly were, or rather as they might have been without a measure like this, and their position as it would be as the effect of these transac tions at Rome. He had looked into this point to see if it had answered their expectations, and he had found, unfortunately, but little in the way of explanation, but enough to prove that, so far as spiritual affairs were concerned, there was so change with respect to the whole body of Roman catholic* in this country. He would refer to Cardinal Wisemaa as the best authority on the point, and whom he knew as • gentleman and a scholar whatever opinion ini.tht be formed of the wisdom of his maxims and the propriety of the course he had taken. The noble lord then read some extracts from the opinions of Dr. Wiseman to the general effect that the hierarch created would be not one atom was a member ; and by that voured to guide himself. (Cheers.) • The Duke of WELLINGTON rose, amid profound , silence, and said—My Lords,-1 am one of those who, in 1829, prevailed upon your lordships' house to adopt the Catholic Relief Bill • and I think it my duty, feeling the r e sponsibility. to declare, on all occasion., tinder any eir camstances, that I object to any alteration which may be proposed in that act. All the provisions of that art were well considered at the time. The act was founded upon the petitions presented to parliament from Roman catholic' during thirty years. Various acts of parliament were repealed. Care was taken in giving securities W the church. All was maturely examined and mmeidered ; and, finally, that act was proposed to your lordships in the shape of a bill, and was curled in both bas! of parliament by large majorities. I think it aiwys way duty to maintain the provisions of that act. I iseedma, therefore, that I saw, with considerable alarm, •la and other papers whic h have appeared in the NUM of last year, under which the appointment was Mel d a hierarchy by the Pope, and other measures wen adopted which have occasioned the bill which has boss proposed this evening to your lordships by the noble marquis for the government. I confess, my lords, the great concern which I felt was founded upon the necessity which seemed to me to be apparent that it would be absolutely impossible to pass over these appointments without further acts of legislation. (Load cheers) The Pope, himself, a man of mild character, a popular individual, a man seeking out popularity on all occasions, shows, in this very rescript, that he was sensible that there were two modes of providing for the superior ecclesiastical jurisdiction for Roman catholics in this country. (Cheers.) He discusses, I say, in this very paper, the two modes of attaining the objects ho had in view. One, the appointment of vicars apostolic; the other, the arrangement which has beat adopted ; and under which a Doctor Wiseman has been created Archbishop of Westminster—thus creating an arch. diocese in this very city, here,' where we have the palace of the Queen, and the seat of the legislature—(cheers)—and under which, moreover, there has been ass appointment to this country, to this island, of a Roman catholic hierarchy, consisting of an archbishop and several bishops. (Cheers.) This has been in preference to the mode which has been re cognised and approved of by the government, as wasacknow ledges' by the person who made the preference. (Cheers.) My lords, I confess that I am anxious to know what could have been the motives for the preference of this new mode of pro ceeding. Tho noble lord who has addressed you just now so much to his honour—(cheers)—knowing the state of Roman catholics on the Continent, knowing the state of affairs at Rome, and being sensible of the desire of parties at Rome to stale different opinions in this country, has re ferred to the rescript. But, my lords, I did not discover what it meant until I read the attack of Cardinal Wiseman upon the Dean and Chapter of Westminster. (Laughter.) Was there no object of antagonism in it? It was clear what the object was: it was the old doctrine of antagonism adopted by the advice of the cardinal himself ; for at the same time thut he published the rescript lie canveyed the announcement of his own promotion, and snide this attack, entirely undeserved, on the Dean and Chapter of West minster. (Hear, hear.) Ile could no longer doubt the ob ject of this proceeding at Rome ; and he hecame sensible that he must give his consent to a certain alteration of the terms of the Roman Catholic Relief Act. lie could not, therefore, concur in what had fallen from his noble friend (the Earl of Aberdeen) when he proposed that the bill bo read a second time that day three months. Circum stances had occurred to render it impossible for us to re turn to the position in which we stood before this act of aggression WWI committed. When the relief act was passed the object was to tepee! all the laws which had been occa sioned by the suspicion of popery on the throne ; next, by what was called the popish plot ; then the acts passed in consequence of the popish reign of James 11., and all sub sequent penal acts against Roman catholics. Nothing, however, was done by the relief act which could affect the law by which the Reformation was established in this coun try ; but if the laws to which he had referred had not been repealed, the Pepe could not have done what he had done, and Cardinal Wiseman could not have dared to come to Englaud and published his bull or rescript, and made his own appointment of a hierarchy ; it could not have happened—it was impossible. Under these circum stances, he thought they could not return now to the posi tion in which they stood at the period of the Relief Act, or before the tensing of the net of 1810. That act repealed the penalties which attached to all the old acts, but left the law in such a state that a misdemeanor might be committed, but no punishment attached to it —no security was left for the public. Under these eircuinstauces they could not stand on the Relief Act, they must leave some measure to vindicate the established church and the public, and to prevent the recurrence oh' such measures as they had lately witnessed. Lit them do that wheel was necessary to secure the power and protect the prerogatives of the crown, and no more, and they might rely upon it that they would have the support of the people of Ireland, as well as of this country. (Hear, hear.) He was very sorry to differ frets his noble friend near him (the Earl of Aberdeen), and he had thought it necessary to say this much in expla natiou of the vote he was about to give. The Earl of MALMESBURY supported the bill, but no thing would induce him to do so if he tnought it could be fairly considered as an interference with the religious free dom of any Roman catholic. Viscount CANNING feared that the bill might jeopardise the great principle of religious freedom ; and when they founded legislation of that character upon a belief that the Pepe had been guilty, us regerded this country, of an act of usurpation, the proof which they offeriel ought to be of the most perfect kind ; but whatever douht might exist as to the question of usurpation, he was really to admit that an insult hail been offered, nut to the crown or the people of England, but to the church. The Duke of ARGYLL reminded the house that they had two documents to deal with—the rescript of the Pope and the pastoral of Cardinal Wiseman. A more pompous, said a more absurd document, proceeding from a proud and foolish priest—(loud cheers)—had never been brought be fore the notice of the English people than this letter. (Cheers.) The noble lord said he would have answered that pastoral letter, but whether in his place, or as a cabinet minister, or in any other capacity, it was utterly beneath his notice. (Hear, hear.) Well, teen, there was the re script of the Pope, and in t h at he presumed the noble lord would only have found the act which it accomplished that he could have noticed; for he could nut conceive that there was anything in the terms of the d. ce ment itself, apart from the act which it expressed, that deserved the notice of the noble lord. It would be incest sisteat, then, with his noble friend's declaimer, to sup pose that her did not acknowledge that the act itself was one which demanded a protest of some kind front the Eng lish people and the English government. (Hear, hear.) and if the party to which Lord Aberdeen belonged were in office, they could not consistently with their avowed prin. leiples do otherwise than direct their legislation against the pastoral, for they argued strenuously that the rescript was expressed in the terms always used upon such occasions. They were referred to the episcopal church in Scotland, to the Wesleyan', and to others ; and wishing to be impartial, he should like to see similar penalties (he did not mean penalties of 1001.), but penalties applied to the episcopal church of Scotland. (Hear.) But he protested most em phatically against their lordship being seriously called upon to regard the protestant sects in the same manner as they were entitled to consider the vast hierarchy of the Roman catholic church. (Loud cheers.) la reply to the argument against the bill founded on the necessary conse quences of toleration, he pressed upon the house the position that because they tolerated the faith of the Roman catholic, they were not therefore bound to permit every thing that the court of Rome chose to call the requisite developements of its eccheiastical system; and with regard to the Charitable Bequests Act, he had always held that there was nothing in that statute which at all precluded them from legislating upon this subject in whatever way the necessity of the case might seem to require ; further, he would maintain that parliament had done nothing to deprive itself of the right and power to control any part of the ecclesiastical system of Rome which in the least degree interfered with the freedom or independence of this country. He entreated them to remember that they bad a solemn responsibility to discharge, not only to themselves but to future generations, and if the Roman catholic religion was to advance they could, and they were bound to, se, that that advance should not be aided by steps trampling on the ancient principles of their public law and the sacred Fero. gatives of the English crown. (Loud cheers.) The Earl of AIRLIE briefly supported the bill. The Bishop of ST. DAVID'S, considering the question before them to Leone rather political than religious, thought that parliament should not have the least hesitation in dealing with it. The recent measures cf the court of Rome were avowedly adopted for the purpose of propagating the religion of Ro:nc ; they commenced with insult and injury, those attacks being obviously intended to be followed up by continued aggression. The insult consisted in ignoring and passing over those who had an interest and ought to have a voice in matters which so deeply concerned them. As to the specific injuries which might possibly result from these aggressions, the people and government of England were not called upon precisely to point out in what they might consist; it was enough that there existed rational grounds for apprehension —causes fully sufficient to justify them in delaying that they were now prepared once fur all to make a determined stand. It had been argued that there was a breach of faith, and a violation of the Relief Act. If that were so, he would say that the breach of faith was not on the part of the pro moters of the present measure, but rather was to be im ' putts' to the Pope himself, who now, finding that his autho• rity no longer rested on the secular arm, insisted more upon his spiritual jurisiletion, and pushed with increased vigour his aggression on every state and community in which the system of Rome had obtained a footing. In voting for the bill then before them he enjoyed the satisfaction of knowing that its adoption would not preclude the government from taking any course in the way of remonstrance, or otherwise, which might be deemed expedient. On the motion of the Earl of WINCIIILSIA, the debate was adjourned. Then lordships adjourned at half-past 12 o'clock. he had cadet- more a bishop than he then was, and that his jurisdiction would not be extended ; that every bishop would be as he had been before ; that the sacraments had been as well administered before as they would be now, and would re ceive no additional efficacy. It appeared then, the noble lord continued, that he was no more • bishop than before. ' Surely then nothing was gained. A distinction must be drawn between the creation of a bishop and the creation of the persons to be governed over by the bishop. The creation of a bishop was an act of • spiritual nature. There was no objection to the Pope cre ating a hundred bishops, and giving them jurisdiction over Roman catholic' in one part of the country or another, and indeed he wished the Pope had called them bishops of the Roman catholic' residing in Beverly, for example. The Pope had the power of doing that, and even of fixing their designations, for in other cases similar powers had been exercised; but it was enough to say that the mode of making bishops had not been changed. Ile could not say there would be no other change, but in a spiritual sense Cardinal Wiseman said that there had been no change whatever. (Hear, hear.) The law of the kingdom gave full liberty to the spiritual power, but restrained the temporal power; and he must say that much of what hail been interpreted as spiritual promised to have effects much more of a temporal nature. (Hear, hear.) He contended that the temporal appointments of the bishops must be ruled by the monarch who wore the temporal crown, and protested against all doctrines to the contrary. (Hear, hear.) Ile then referred to the address presented by the catholic body to her Majesty, professing the greatest respect for those who had signed that declara tion, but intimating doubt that they represented the whole of the Roman catholic body or anything like it. (Hear, hear.) In that document he had observed to his horror, instead of the bold declaration of their ancestors in the reign of Edward the Third, that they would not submit to the usurpation of Rome, or to the degrading tyranny then exercised, that, instead of boldly standing up, like their anceetors, to oppose the in troduction into this country of all that tyranny, social and ' domestic, which prevailed at Rome, he had found the de claration that the spiritual authority of the Pops could only be limited by his own free art and consent. The noble lord here quoted passages kern the address which has already been printed in extestro. The Pope himself, despite his three crowns, was but a puppet in the hands of other powers. He could not defend the lan guage which had been used by Rome, tor agree with Lord Aberdeen that the act of the Pope had been only of a spiri tual character—no spiritual act could mike it necessary to heap insult upon insult upon the crown and upon the insti- 1 tutions of a country. Nor could lie overlook the arbitrary conduct of the Pope in abridging the liberties of the ca tholic hierarchy in Ireland. The appointment of the Most Rev. Dr. Cullen showed that the l'ope had assumed an ar bitrary power in Ireland, which ho was prepared also to exercise in England, by the absolute appointment of all the Roman catholic prelates. Ridiculing the idea that the papal document was intended merely to nickname certain individuals, and contending that it was meant to do away with all ancient sees and episcopal rights in Eng land, and to declare the acts of the Queen and of the parliament void, he asked whether such was the proceeding of a friendly sovereign, or not ra ther an attempt to stir up a rebellion in the laud. (Cheers.) Were England to do iu Rome what Rome did in England —were England to incite the Romans to set the authority of the court of Rome at defiance—what would have been said ? Ile looked at this apostolic document in its distinct sense, and be believed that the majority of Roman catholic. in this country would feel it binding on their conscience to obey it in its distinct sense. This, then, WAS the dilemma in which Rome had placed English Roman catholics—that, on the one hand, they must break with their own church, or on the other hand, violate their loyalty to the Queen, to the constitution, and to the principles of our national character. (Cheers.) Nothing could be more dangerous and mislead ing than the argument that this was a spiritual matter, only compulsory in the spiritual signification. The court of Rome, in puiut of fact, had provoked confusion in the country. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl (Earl of Aberdeen) warned them of the consequences of the application of such a bill as this to Ireland. The noble earl contended that the bill would destroy the peace of Ireland. Well, but this was another illustration of the error and the crime committed by the court of Rome. (Cheers.) The noble earl had al luded to the reactionary movement throughout the conti nent of Europe, and had spoken of the danger of ultra montane doctrines being everywhere established. It was most navies ionably true that the ultra-montane party was predominant, and not so much on the other as on this side of the Alps. (Hear, hear.) This fact could be easily traced to its source. Unfortunately these who entertained cis-Alpine views were not an active and were not the governing body. The other party were jealous, • of had given their character to the whole conti nental human catholic church. And he believed that in this recent movement it had been fully in contemplation to give to the Roman catholic church in this country au ultra montane character. (Cheers.) It was manifestly an attempt to destroy at once that liberal catholicism which had rapidly grown up of late veers among the Roman catholic' of this country. (Hear, hear.) It was an attempt to bring over the whole Roman catholic body satisfied with their existing position to those absurd ultra montane opinions maintained by a few fanatical converts, and who by their fanaticism had dame more harm than all other men to the Roman catholic church. (Hear, hear.) It was, above all, intended to introduce, what he hoped never would be intro• ducat!, the interference of the church of Rome in the educational establishments—to get rid of every liberal institution established in England or Ireland—to destroy the Queen's colleges in Ireland, the greatest blessing ever liestowed on Ireland—to undermine the national sys tem of education in Ireland—and thus, by all practicable means, to wall mound the Roman catholic' of the country with such safeguards as to deprive them of every liberal study and science which could clash with that spirit of ab solutism distinguishing the court of Rome. (Loud cheers.) The intent was to establish here, in effect, an " Index el purgatorious "—banning Roman eatholies from everything ithistratiog and reflecting the spirit of the age. The court of Rome, it was known, had condemned astronomy and scouted geology. Astronomy was called infidelity, and geology was protested against as materialism. The object of Rome in England, as elsewhere, was to get into its own hands the whole education of the people, forbidding everywhere anything like freedom of conscience, or the spirit of freedom. (Cheers.) And because this was the character of the policy of the court of Rome, that policy had received the support of assolutist power, 1 That, umnt; he a fi d r , m b, ly ca tl ,, i h v e ed w , .wuestagheou6elphoveweinanacctr.:ruliaraceodtlisft huiteetwr7rilyirgoihetnhhisnuec.i though he believed that they were but handling a wea co...llllh., ac in co tle ,li cr, iti woul u cl wou7lomtheetleiiismellve. Austria, I get rid of the fairs of J p oseph, and, in hail, m anr :the ' laws of Leopold the Second—all which had before made those countries comparatively happy, contented, and quiet. of sciences—and had nini con science—this hesitation in joining' in any attempt to protest against this ieihs rel e ig tn i ee o in us —val lle snw rt ao y rf — °ne t a hi r s rert w ye— ar j this attempt to force us back to the barbarianism of the middle ages. (Cheers.) Ile did not regard the move ' ment as a mere naming of names. It was • great move ment on national iudependenc.; and this, as an indepen- I I dent country, was called upon to resist the assault. [ i (Cheers.) And he supported this measure of the govern ment because he coueidered it to be in the nature of a pro test. For they all knew this bill would be • dead ' letter. (Laughter.) Had a different course been taken, he I , believed they would have avoided much of the agitation j which had lately shaken the land. To a certain extent, I ; that agitation had been natural and desirable, as declara , - lOU ..3f t'ae nuti mai Indige.ation. Ile was most anxious fur i • the nteresu of the lto:nao catholic., but he was also max i I Wes for the interests of the whole community of which be HOUSE OF COMMONS.—MONDAY, JULY 21 The S took the chair a little before 4 o'clock. NEW MEMBER. Mr. COLLINS, the newly- e lected member for Knares. borough. was introduced by Mr. E. D. Denison and Mr. Wal pole, and took the oaths and his seat. ot li oho, anti especially tgihe I—h the Pope. kt was a p r a fAgnod sort of pretext in the matter,, ern then read tbr , ' , which but • was nit n isggigay tensor weight. It wig. ,til l ' interfering with ours aliens f no re a son t eerishipsicition with the I'ope CT thb ri , Pope on purely • • ;matte t pbher on the Contisent—Presela . 'The tumor catholif 'to lat ..• a rep tire at Ole court of Home, but did lot own br.s t 4p le asked no *ere liaise a nuns*, Bosnia aid Honorer , he thought, were 'or the in 111=i, of ikthe ammo 'Wise. key 's De had IdwaY, oPPoseds amid le npl.)=. e re" t the ,boeld coligiane to opposeThrettempt to introduce a popish n noother fuotingthan as a issenting nuncio into England. Thera were many peewits who hail rded by the law , and all he de/4W just reason to complain of the bill, but none had greater I those rights and privileges which cause than the Pope, for the declarations of Lord John dissenting church. The history of Russell and other ministers laid a trap front which he could .... .... PRIVATE BUSINESS. METROPOLIS WATER SUPPLY BILL. Sir De: L. EVANS moved that it be an instruction to tho committee on the Metropolis Water Supply Bill to tJko vi lice and to hear counsel upon the nature of the undertaking fur funthhing a supply of pure spring water by the London (Watford) Spring Water Company, the plans and estimates of which were, by an order of the house, on the 17th day of June last, referred to the said committee, and to report thereuson to the house. As it was nut expected that the bill would be proceeded with this session it was desirable that the committee should have all the information they could get. Sir J. GRAHAM, the chairman of the committee, said the committee had already derided that these parties had not a law standi. The motion was ne.zativeil without a division. The Hove Improvement Bill was read a third time and passed. PUBLIC BUSINESS. PETITIONS PRESENTED. CRYSTALPALACE.—By Mr. REYNOLDS, from Knights bridge • by Mr. OSBORNE, from the owners of houses near Hyde-park, and from the inhabitants of Brompton ; by Mr. 01001tE, from a place in Ireland; by Mr. M. GIBSON, from the Manchester Chamber of Commerce ; by Mr. MOWATT, from Falmouth; by Mr. EWART, from Dumfries; in favour of the retention of the Crystal Palace as a winter garden. REOMTRATION Or ASSORANCEi BILL. —By Sir CI STRICKLAND, from solicitors of Preston ; Mr. NE WDE GATE, from attorneys and solicitors of Warwickshire ; the Marquis of GRANBY, from Stamford; Mr. S. ADAIR (place not heard) ; Mr. M. GIBSON, from the Manchester Chamber of Commerce, and II petitions from freehold land societies, &c.; Mr. SMYTH, from York; Mr. H. BROWN, from Tewkesbury; Mr. CLAY, from Hull; Mr. SANDARS, from Wakefield; against the Registration of Assurantes Bill. TILE SEWERS COMMISSION. In answer to Mr. Ftrzaoy, Lord .1. RUSSELL stated that it was the intention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to bring in a bill on this sub ject next day. REGISTRATION OF ASSURANCES BILL. Mr. DISRAELI hoped this bill would not be pressed this ' session, but would be referred to a select committee. (Hear, hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL wished to proceed with the second reading that evening, but would not bring it on at a late hour. ARTICLES IN THE GREAT EXHIBITION. In answer to Mr. NEWDEGATEp Mr. C. LEWIS said that in general articles had not been allowed to be removed from the Exhibition without the consent of the commissioners of customs, and this special pernxission had only been granted in one or two instances. BARRACKS IN ST. JAMES'S PARK. ...... The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in answer to Sir De L. EVANS, said there had been an intention of making an addition to the barracks in St. James's park, but that intention had been given up, and the buildings had been suspended. RAMSGATE AND MARGATE HARBOURS. Mr. MOFFAT asked the First Lord of the Admiralty why the report of the select committee appointed to investi gate the revenue, condition, and expenditure of Ramsgate and Margate harbours, which recommended that all dues and tolls now clamed from vessels not actually entering Ramsgate harbour should wholly cease and determine, has nut been carried into effect ; and whether it is the intention of her Majesty's ministers to introduce a bill to carry out the recommendations of the select committee. ....... Sir F. T. BARING said that he had given considerable attention to the matter, and had sent down a surveyor to re port upon the harbour, whose report and the recommenda tion of the committee had been duly weighed; hut he found the regulations of the house prevented any bill being brought in this session. lie did not say he wus fully pre pared to adopt all the recommendations of the committee. In answer to Mr. Watt's, Sir F. T. BAItING was understood to say that a bill would be brought in next session. 'TIE CASE OF MR. SALOMONS. _ As the debate on the case of Mr. Alderman Salomons ' was adjourned till this day, and as it stood first in the orders, there was a very numerous attendance of members from four o'clock ; and about half-past four, when the public business was entered on, the hcusc was crowded, particularly so on the opposition side. Mr. Alderman Salomons had entered during the presentation of petitions, and had taken his feat on one of the raised benches, just be hind the rail which separates the seats appropriated to strangers from those of the members. The SPEAKER—Before putting the question that the clerk do proceed to read the order of the day, I will read a letter which I have received from Mr. Alderman Salomons, as follows: July 21. Sir —I take the liberty to call your attennon to • very important omission in the record of the proceedings 04 the house of Commons on Friday last of an notice of my demand to subscribe the oath it ab juration, and to declare to my property outlifleations. Immedittely a ter 1 dad taken the oaths I read from a paper which I held in my hand the ful ow.ng word*: hare sow taken the oaths in tn^ loran and with the eeieueinies that 1 declare to be bidding on my conscience, in he.orglance with the statute I and 2 Victor la, cap. 105. I how dentate! to subscribe tile oath of abjorati in and to declare to sty pr pert,. gratification." No notice bus been taken on the proceeding• rl'Ase referred to, 01 my baring mode this demand. You will thereture, I UM sure, Sir, pardon me for drawing your attention to the subject, and reepeethally IN. wing ^hot the minutes of toe pakeedlu.si of Friday last be *moiled. With the umaset respect, I have the hmo or to be, Sir, your moot obedient and bramble servant, DAVIS, SALuMONS. I ought to state to the house that these proceedings were very carefully prepared; and although what was stated by the hon. member was perfectly inaudible in this part of the house, yet it appeared to me that as this took place after the oath of abjuration was tendered to Mr. Alderman Sa lonians, and the clerk had reported to me the emission, and I had given the hon. member orders to withdraw, it was therelore his duty to have withdrawn. (Hear, hear.) As this statement was made subsequent to my having ordered him to withdraw, I thought it was not right to cuter it on the minutes. (near, hear.) The Clerk then read the order of the day, which was in the following Norm: "David Salomons, Feat. —Further proceeding on administering the oath of abjuration." Sir B. HALL—It may, perhaps, now be convenient that I should repeat the question which I put to my right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on Friday evening, and which he requested should be repeated this evening, when the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) was present. The hon. baronet thea repeated the question, whether the government considered that the course adopted by the hon. member fur Greenwich on that day had rendered him amenable to the Law, and intended to authorise the Attur ney-Oeneral to prosecute for the statutahle penalties? Lord J. RUSSELL—I consider that the lion. baronet is hardly authorised in asking me what the government will or will not do upon the question of prosecuting a member for having taken his seat without taking the earner abjura tion. (Cheers.) However, lam ready to say—leasing the government at full Wien' to act as they think proper—that they ure not at present disposed to think that they ought to prosecute for the offence. Sir B. BALL—Thin I shall state the course which I be lieve the honourable gentleman intends to pursue. In consequence of the answer which the noble lord has now given, I think that the only course which the hon. gentle- man can pursue is to come within the house, to take his seat within this assembly, to which he has been elected. Mr. Alderman SALOMONS immediately rose from where he was sitting, raised the iron rail which separated his seat from those of the members, and, descending the steps, walked up the house to about the middle of the ' front bench below the gangway on the ministerial side. The bench was full at the time, but Mr. Aglionby, gave place, and Mr. Alderman Salomons seated himself between Mr. Baring nod Mr. Atistey. This was followed by loud cheers, and a few cries of "Order" from the opposition benches. The SPEAKEIt—As the hon. member has not taken the oath of abjuration as prescribed by law, I must, there fore, repeat what I desired on Friday last, and request him at once to withdraw. (Cries of " Withdraw.") Mr. Alderman SALOMONS sat still. At this moment, . a. Mr. OSBORNirose, and advancing from where he sat in the second row of benclus to the chair, placed a paper in the Speaker's heeds. The SPEAKER—The hon. member has placed • mo tion in my hands ; but as the question now before the house is a point of order it will have precedence of all else. Lord J. RUSSELL rose, but immediately gave way again to The SPEAKER, who said I think I ought to explain to the house that if the hon. member refuses to obey the order of the Speaker, it is for the house to support the Speaker; and that order will be enforced by a vote of the house. (Cheers.) Mr. SALOMONS maintained his seat, and at this stage of the proceedings was conferring with Mr. B. Wall. Lord J. RUSSELL—It was for the purpose of support ing the chair that I rose. (Hear, hear.) It seems to me, sir, perfectly clear, and it is a matter upon which I will not waste any words, that the house ought to support the Speaker. (Cheers.) Ido not believe that the Speaker has authority to enforce the order he has given without a regu lar motion being before the house; and I, therefore, now move that Mr. Alderman Salomon he ordered to withdraw from the house. . The motion having been seconded, Mr. B. OSBORNE said—l visa to move an amendment, the purport of which I have placed in your hands, sir ; and I would beg of you, to save the time of the house, to read that amendment. Mr. ANSTEY seconded the amendment. The SPEAKER—The motion is—" That Mr. Alderman • Salomons be ordered to withdraw from the house ;" where upon it is moved as an amendment, to leave out all the words after " that," and to insert—" David Salomons, Esq., having been returned to serve in this present parlia ment for the borough of Greenwich, and having taken the oaths required by law in the manner most binding on him, is entitled to take his seat in this house." Mr. ANSTEY said the question was one of a judicial character, affecting the right of the hon gentleman near him to occupy the seat which he had most properly and meat constitutionally taken. He conceived that a very ma terial error had been committed in the minutes of what passed on Friday night. It stated there that the honour able member for Greenwich had not taken the oath pre e n e that t a the e n scribed by law. Ile denied that the oath o f a bj urat i on was an oath prescribed by law.epltwtyas. had a notstated abjuration oath, assuming its l h in the form prescribed by that house. He denied that the house had prescribed any form whatever for taking that oath. (Cries of "Divide.") Hon. gentlemen wished to vote, to divide, and to unseat the hon. member for Green wich without inquiry. Wu it seemly, decent, or respect fal to themselves, thus to interrupt the proceedings? He was determined to be beard, and would conclude with a motion that the debate be now adjourned. The house immediately divided— For the adjournment Against Mr. Salomon, u,•ted in this division, and when hon. mem ' buts returned from the division lobbies, resumed the scat he had previously occupied. The SPEAKER having put the question, whether the words proposed to he omitted stand part of the resolution, Mr. M. GIBSON put certkin question, to the Speaker, as to whether the sense of the house upon the oath of abjuration had heen taken this sesdon, and whether a resolution of the house last session in relation t.l another case, was binding in th e present ease. .... •• • Lord J. RUSSELL said— Sir, this t; a question of orler— (cliccrs)—and as such I do not hold it to be the convenient course to seek to draw the right hou. the Speaker into II debate. (" Hear," and cheers.) Questions that with very great propriety may be addressed to a minister of the crown can not with the same propriety be addressed to the Speaker. (Hear, hear.) I find the resolution of this house last year to be that the Baron Lionel de Itothsehild should not be entitled to vote or sit in this house during any de'late until— An Hos. Mestiteu—Aye. until—(Order.) Lord J. RUSSELL—UntiI he had taken the oath of els juration in the form required by law. That is the reselu , tion of the house ; and I conceive we are bound by that re solution. (Cheers.) The oath nut having been taken in that sense, I think the right hon. gentleman the Speaker acted with perfect right and justice. (Cheers.) Mr. M. GIBSON I wish, sir —(" Oh, oh," and " Spoke ")—I wish to apologise to the right hon. gentle man and to the house—(hear, hear)—for making it appear that, in putting my question a second time, I wished to draw the right hon. gentleman into a debate. I coulees I was rather betrayed into the feeling; and I shall not press the matter further than to say that I shall avail myself of the opportunity to address myself to the subject. (Cheers.) Mr. ANSTEY rose amid loud and protracted cries of " Oh, oh," and " Spoke," which lasted several minutes. On order being restored, the hon. gentleman said: The noble lord at the head of her Majesty's government was perfectly right in saying that the house on that occasion came to the resolution which had just been read by the right hon. Speaker ; but the noble lord had forgotten that the house had previously come to another resolution, nega tiving iu a direct and formal manner the proposal of the hon. and learned member for Abingdon (Sir 1.. Thesiger) to declare the seat of the hon. member for the City of Lon don vacant. (Hear, hear.) That motion was negatived by a large majority, the noble lord (Lord J. Russell), the col league of Baron Rothschild, voting in the majority on the occasion. ("hear, hear," and cheers.) It should be i stated, when the house came to that ambiguous declaration of ' the oath, it also adopted another resolution, to the effect that the previous question demanded the serious attention of par Be ment, and should receive that attention early in the present session; a promise which to this day had never been ful filled. (Laughter.) lion. members might laugh ; but was the bill which passed through that house, but which was ignominiously rejected in another place, a redemption of the pledge? (Hear, hear.) The case was not that of Baron Rothschild individually ; it was the cue of the city of Lon don. (Hear, hear.) No parliamentary inquiry had since taken place; no satisfaction had been given to the hon. gentleman, Baron Rothschild, or to the city of London. dis franchised as it was by one-fourth of its representation. (liver, hear.) In the annals of parliamentary proceedings there was no precedent which could be evoked to justify the course which at the latter end of last session had been taken by that house. (Hear, hear.) The Baron Roths child made a statement at the table of the house, and said he omitted the words " on the true faith of a Christian" from the abjuration oath because he did not esteem them to be binding on his conscience. (Hear, hear.) But his hon. friend the member for Greenwich (Mr. Salomon) had not only made no such statement, but deliberately stated his ✓eason to be the statement which was now on record, " that he had taken the oath in that form because be con sidered it the form prescribed by the statute lot and and Victoria." (Hear, hear.) The question the house had to decide in the case of the hon. member for London was, whether that hon. gentleman was authorised or entitled to omit certain words from the oath because he conceived them not to be binding on his conscienoe. But the question now to be decided was, whether the vote of that house was to deprive his hon. friend beside him (Mr. Salo mon!) of the seat which lie then occupied by virtue of an act of parliament. (Loud cries of "divide.") These cries only showed him (Mr.Anstey that the honourable gentlemen who uttered them had already prejudged the case ; but they should make no im preasion on him, or on other impartial lion. gentlemen. Here was the language of the act of parliament, a declara tory act too: " And be it declared and enacted, that in all cases in which an oath may lawfully be or shall be administered to any person tithe r as a juryman, witness, or deponent, in any proceeding, civil or criminal, in any court of law in the United Kingdom, or in any office or employment, or ou any occasion whatlver. such person is bound by the oath administered, provided the some shall be administered in such form and with such ceremonies as such person may declare binding." Now, that was the ground on which his hon. friend the member for Greenwich declared he had duly taken the oath of abjuration in the form prescribed by law. The resolu tion of the house in the ease of Baron Rothschild required no more than that. There was not a word about " the sense of the house, or parliamentary precedent or usage," which he would then show to the house to be completely erroneous, although practised for the last 40 years. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Ito (Mr. Anstey) weut farther than his hon. friend near him (Mr. Salornons), and would then affirm that his hon. friend had not only taken the oath as required, but that he had also sworn a great deal too much. (Laughter.) The oath in question was one that could not be lawfully administered at the table of that house or in the House of Lords. lie asserted that with out fear of contradiction; because, since the death of George 111. the oath was unlawful. The oath of abjuration was eaacted in the 13th year of William 111., chap. 6, end contained in a report of a committee of that house laid before parliament. That oath abjured the right of James 111., lately called the " Prince of Wales," and bound the person taking it to maintain the succession of the Princess of Denmark, or, in default of issue, the Electress Sophia of Hanover. The unexpected death of William 111. made it necessary to alter the oath. It was found that the oath expired with the dynasty, for whose protection it had been enacted ; and the Houses of Parlia ment took it on themselves, by special resolutions, to make certain alterations in the oath. Fur instance, ou the 10th March, 1701, the Houses of Parliament resolved to leave out the words " Our Lord King William, - and to substi tute the w rids " Our Lady taticen Anne ;" and, on the 21th March, 1701, the Speaker and members of parliament present took the oath as altered. In the same session of parliament—the first of Queen Anne—a statute was passed declaring the alterations in the act 13th Wm. 111. legal, and essential to be taken by members of parliament. A like alteration was made in the reign of George I. ; and the last occasion on which the oath had been altered was in the commencement of the reign of George lll.—namely, the Gth Geo. 111., chap. 53. 'That was the act at present on the table, with the substitution of the words " United Kingdom of Great Britain end Ireland" foe those of " Great Britain and the Kingdom of Ireland," and the words " Victoria, Queen," for those of " George, King." The last recitemeot in the preamble of the act stated that, in consequence of certain politic el events that had hap pened, it hail become necessary to alter the oath. (Loud cries of " Divide.") Now, there was not the least chance of their dividing. He could assure lion. gentle men that at least thirty or forty hon. members on his side of the house were anxious to speak on the question. (" Oh, oh, " and much laughter.) Whilst the Stuart line was in existence the oath hail its appropriate meaning. That princely house was now extin guished; and consequently he conceived he had a right to assume that, if the question were again submitted to parlia ment, it would agree to repeal the oath of abjuration. (Hear.) It had answered its purpose. The line it was in tended to shut out was extinct; and Jacobites and all other classes were now absorbed and amalgamated. Two other events had happened. Before the ultimate extinction et the Stuart line Henry Duko of York assumed the title of Henry IX.; and the second event was the union of Great Britain and Ireland. The kingdom of Ireland ceased to exist, and both became the United Kingdom of Great Bri tain and Ireland. Now no alteration was made in the oath to meet that state of things ; yet ever since the time of George 111. the oath of abjuration was taken without pro test. It was argued there was precedent fur it but thirty or forty years constituted no precedent. Their liberties were of much older date, and therefore precedent of such limited existence or duration could not justly be plewled in the matter. His first point, therefore, was that no member should be compelled, without an act of parliament, or even a resolu , tion of the house, to take this oath, altered as it was by the I caprice or will of individuals, or any oath whatever thus altered, at that table. The next point was whether tbe I words, " on the true faith of a Christian," belonged to this 'substance of the oath or only to its ceremonial and solem nity. (Hear.) This was a cue where penalties would apply, one half of which could be applied by that house, and that house only, the other half had to be apslied by a court of law. It behoved them, therefore, to weigh what they were called on to do, as it might be quoted in a court of law. The question was, whether a gentleman of the Hebrew persuasion had a right by the common law of the land to take a seat in that house being elected thereto by a free constituency ? That he had such a right at com mon law he had no doubt, being a natural born subject. The community of the Jews sat by the side of convocation of the clergy, and they exercised the same powers as the nobles and the clergy exercised within their respective chambers. It was true their acts did not appear, for, in the time of Edward 1., the Jews were driven from the king dom and their property was taken from them. But this was an arbitrary act of the king which was not sanctioned by the estates, and if the Jews chore to return into the kingdom they might have done so and exercised their former rights. In the reign of Charles 11. an attempt was made to impose alien dues on the Jews, but, after solemn argu ment on both sides, it was decided they were delivered from the payment of such lines. In William 111.'s reign they were taxed on the footing of being natural born subjects, and they paid one moiety less than 'majoring Christians and Roman catholic*. This proved that they were not aliens. During that reign there were twelve years during which they were eligible to sit in parliament, for it was not till the 13th of William 111. that the words "on the true faith of a Christian" were introduced. Did these words, introduced as the noble lord (Russell) very properly said "at the fag end of the oath," constitute any difference? The oath was framed in contemplation of danger which was supposed was likely to come from the Roman catholic' and the Unitarian pro- testants of those days. The oath of abjuration was framed in their regard, and therefore as to its substance did not at all apply to the Jews. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Greenwich acknowledged the authority of Queen Victoria, and that no other person had ecclesiastical or spiritual su premacy within the realm. He therefore went farther than any Roman catholic in that house, in whose favour, be it observed, the oath of abjuration was repealed. (Hest% hear.) The house had jurisdiction over all ivies- lions offsetting the right of its members to a seat; and if they had the right to decide oo the question of title, they 1 j 4 1