The Express. — London, England, 1851-03-22 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 22, 1851. - - IMPERIAL PARLIANENT. , tradiction to a statement not made by him (Sir R. Inglis), ! petitioner to this house had been not on:y impugned, but' . but contained in a petition laid before the house, and only had been alleged to be untrue. But he was going to show HOUSE OF LORDs Tr -.-- RUMS, MARCL adverted to by him, relative to a certain young lady - , Miss the value of the contradiction of the bon. member for , 21. Augusta Talbot, who, the petition alleged, was now a Dublin, and to show the house that if that hon. gentleman Tba Loan CNA:feel-Loa took his mat at 6 siclock. : postulant, and detained for the purpose of taking the veil had had the candour and fairness to give the house the in COUNTY COURTS EXTENSION ACT BILL. at a convent at Taunton. The hon. member for Dublin ells- timation regarding the letter of the Bishop of Clifton (the Lord BROUOIIAM, in moving the second readin g vf tinetl y deni ed the t ruth of this statement . The denial was ltev. Mr. Hendren) he would have informed the house that this bill, explained certain additions which he at made at a time when he (Sir R. Inglis) was absent front Miss Talbot was a , postulant. (Hear, hear.) He would suede to it. First there was • declarat or y clause, for the house. Since that denial, be had received a letter from read the passage :—' the Lord Chancellor decided that she the purpose of removing some doubt s wh ic h h a d arisen Yr. Craven Berkeley repeating the statement and guarantee- should return as a boarder to the convent where she had from the construction of the acts of 1816 and 1860, to pre- Me its truth. The hon. baronet then read the following . been educated, if they would receive her. But this was vent the possibility of persons holding is doubt upon the document refused, because at that convent no boarders are received. voluntary jurisdiction at law. Then there was a clause ''bp trutb of the statements contained in my petition has been liar Miss Talbot then proposed to beg admission as a puetu- which enacted that in Cane of a new trial the venue ' in.1.8.14* That p Litho w.. 4 not drawn up without due considers- ; lent, that is, as one intended to become in due might be changed so that the cause might be tried Lotheie and ass ready to reedy on eath every st dement em- I time a nun, if considered to be properly qualified." before some other county court judge than the one M. a Imee t n P eier m hupe . T i t; . I"fis t° .:l y. ft b y er;illl/ W i t n a be . le h u il h at:: .d.i ch And, acconlingly, the bishop said, in the offer part of the who originally heard it. Upon application to a limners. Waite eira-ej thabolt a nf mos. ' ' „, e'r ,„,, ,, , - letter , that " she was admitted somewhere about the be- judge of a superior court, the venue might also be changed • /mss Talbot l• • pa-talent in •••"'lnt galled the bodge. at Moulton, ] ginning of September." (Immense cheering, and cries of to another county in the first instance. Neat he pengooe d , awkoanonow wisher fact that she was admitted a the time sated " Oh, oh. - ) Thus Mr. Craven Berkeley had declared, in to add a clause which would require the defendant to give byre in the sal 6 petition. In tact, I rejoice to add mat this butt .e. his petition to the house, that his step-daughter was a pew- notice that he meant to defend, and if he did not give such a ii i he mils h , lll: l •4: :,... ei t , m , i,tete la g o tt i , , ;t erm . s ever sure Ls a ta i terneut I have : ever tulant, anal the hon. gentleman the member for Dublin had notice he should not be permitted to offer evidence at the , who have had the tem* . ri- g to attempt to ea.t the I.2iflumro7fulieTsrl= denied the allegation of the petition by a resolute assertion trial ; and that then the plaintiff should give such evidence " leen myself. I therefore look Samara to your k i nd ~04 . 1 detiaring that it was altogether untrue. He (Sir B. Hall) as was usual in unilefi ndssl eases. This would prevent the I "le, ..... Ling .. mn a, II phoning We matter in its true hest. . now told him that by the letter of one of his own plaintiff from bringing all his witnesses and documents . see ... ups the postponement of the Iteligious Mow*" bishops, which he had used as an authority, the statement when there wee no purpo se t o b e serve d. It, , Bill the- weenies, Mr. Reouldr toh that opportunity to ,in the petition was true. (Oreat cheering.) i charge Inc with untruth in my tetition, and that, tro, upon the prin. I Mr. M. 6111 SON said he rose to call the attention of the alter having omitted to give n o ti ce there should be • dis- , c h e a slim:aim, s La., !bat Mies 'NINA was not in the or.vent at noble lord at the head of the government and of the right coven- of new evidence or any other circumstance which ' faunae with the view of tame the veil urd as an avolre 1 0 Pad, , would excuse the defendant from not having given notice, lam." I sits I feel otil more indebted to you than I ,k, at ne ,„, n a hon. the Chancellor of the Exchesper to the present posi- Ten applicatien to a judge the trial might be postponed: 1 e had been premed to introduce a deux. with rekrune• ' meta your arMeebmam! ' yea wit, mote in Lie hott, the Vat )ti statement, proihiing it , Hearing that ilies tallud was Is the eon- too of the public business. (Much laughter and eheenng.) This was the 21st of 3larch, and he believed he was stating e vent at l'aunton. on toe 14th of lot moat I proceeded there for tin , the truth when hi.' mid that the house had only sat for pair another matter. By an act in 1616, tithes in E land I , o . nit . and Wales had been commuted, and the operation of I it ' eled7vis f ., teat ' St:O er. an'l wa re risbir the t. tr&l uf i t n hereport I hail lie business cue night. R the wo o fs, " • (Hear, hear.) It might even be that act had been almost universal, 60 that little I 6l we J. fnialthem. MOMS be ar TS:: commit into the " foot ' nr y i consider, d that the first night of the session had been the or no tithe now existed; under the old law, i t , amed teat lady errant re mon I Met bear wo. L tee ; .I,..sied 1 only night of Public buliflo•- - - Li ,,,.. lin beat tact It was, that Me Tar bra bur treed then la sap.' Sir 1 . ACLAND recalled the attention of the house to the . ... . .. . _ . being nearly all converted into rent charge. By the law, ma it mow stood, hir that rent charge there was no nmisly whatever, eseept by distress ; and he could not conceive that adding this to the county court jurisdiction would make a material change in the law. Not only was then: nn way of els overy but by ilistnuo, but there was an ex press provision that there should be no personal liability. l~everthelesa, it was very hard that the parson should be obliged in every (am• of refusal to pay tithes to have re course to a distress, which was very repugnant to their feelings. ntning reicommcsidations and argent entreaties had Non made to him by many of those reverend peysone to all a clause to the bill giving the county court judge jurisdiction with n.ferroce to arrears of rent charge to the extent id 401. He had also been urged to add to the bill a provision of a most important nature, which be should postpone for the present, hut he strongly roonimendeil that eventually it should be added to the bill. The state of the law was such that any person of sane mind would never dream of going into the Court of Chan. eery for a di Id of the amount of lOW. Their lordships, in fact, had been told by a society of practitioners in that eourt—the solicitors—that for less than 1,1100/. it would be absurd for any man to think of going into Chancery ; and he thought, it it was possible togive equitable jurisdiction to the county courts, that suits in equity might be m us t nds.oitageou.ly brought in those enures to the extent of tool.— (cheers) --subject to the right of either party to remove the suit to a superior court, as there was Don • power in any rause at common law, if two judges of a superior court thought it should be so removed.' At present persons never dreamt of going into Chancery fur small amounts, and were obliged to submit to the has of such sums altogether. (Hear, hear.) There was an other subject to which he wisher) to call their lordships' Weaker last ea — a"pusiukait. and that as ion r oe the period of her postulaney expired she lewd take the white nail, sad when that period es parcel she would take the blacla, and become a can. When, Mao. Taib at awe Into the room I requested to he allowed an Mtn, view with her without the memo& Many one; bid Mn. retrench= inktaned me, that worn Lord Shrewsbury placed her there eke wee to see no oar, by he. exprea order*, not men her owe halaeirati r (which I premei) camp lag la the presence of the superior or the Meares@ or the convent. I then, in the americana , of Miss Jerningitani shed Tailmt if it.. were a petulant, and remised an answer an the alllrrnaline. I then Tenth= rated moat seriously with Mina Talbot, recaillag to tier recollection some dying icjuncaluas or her poor smother, and made such an =premise 1.4100 her, that in spite of the press on. of the superior, .n concluded an obserraithre by telling in. ih.t she bad • I me tour heti= her precious to teol,.g the rind step, ma, Ma man= more poatularny, sad a whole year al the white Till; the.. were her ow. ward.. I hare written to Mr. Iternol4. requestiong to knew opuo what authority he charges me with ea untruth. fact that his hon. friend near him hail asked a question of a very different kind, but of much more interest—a ques tion to the First Lord of the Admiralty. Sir F. BARING said that the proposal of sending a steamer to Captain Austin, as proposed by his hon. friend, had met with due consideration, but the Admiralty were of opinion that it was not necessary or advisable to send further vessels. Captain Austin'sexpeation was furnished with provisions for three years, besides those which had been left by other captains, and for the mere purpose of conveying intelli gence and hoeing a heavy responsibility, the Admiralty did not think themselves justified in sending out more vessels. All had been done that a generous country could require them to do ; and the Admiralty must do their duty In stop . ping further supplies of this kind. Sir E. N. BLATO.N went all lengths with those who were anxious to do what was possible for the recovery of Sir J. Franklin and his gallant patty. Admiral BERKELEY said that government had done everything which they could have done in the matter. Sir I John Moss would be back in August, and he would bring all the information they could secure, even though they sent a vessel now. GOVERNOR OF DOMINICA. In reply to Mr. O'FLAILERTY, Mr. HAWES said that an offer of the governorship of Dominica had be-en made to the honourable and gallant member tOr Longford, but as to whether he had accepted the Chiltern Ilundreils he (Mr. Hawes) could say nothing. CENSUS RETURNS. Sir G. CLERK begged to ask the right hon. baronet the Secretary for the Biome Department whether he was pre pared to lay on the table of the house a letter which he had addressed to the Registrar-General on the subject of the census returns. THE ARCTIC EXPEDITIONS. Sir It. INGLIS haring read the shove letter said, without resuming his seat, that he would take this opportunity of put the question that stood upon the paper in his name to his right hon. friend the First Lord of the Admiralty. It was ea gallows To ask the First Lord of the Admiralty as to Met (muses, if any, of the delay in sending out a steamer to =let Captain Austin, R.N., in the Arctic seas during the mawaing summer." CASE OF MISS AUGUSTA TALBOT. The moment Sir U. Inglis sat down, and before Sir F. awing could reply to the question, Mr. REYNOLDS started upend said it was not his in tenti„,r, to answer the qu e stion the honourable baronet had just put, but he hegged the indulgence of the house while he explained the part he had taken. in reference to the ease of Miss Talbot, which had . . been before attention: In many considerable borough., there were courts of limited and unlimited jurisdiction, such sis the notionler's Court at Manchester, which hod a limited jurisdiction; but it wax an important court. 'Then there 111 w an important court at Salford, another at Liver pool, and the Tidwy Court at Bristol; at Birmingham also, and in many other boroughs there were similar courts. In all thew ancient courts the fete wore on a much more bland scale than in the county courts, where the utmost amount to which a solicitor could he entitled was 2i. 4s. lid. lie need not say that where these ancient courts calmed solicitors had a motive for inducing their clients to tinter them to the county courts, although It was clearly the interest of the suitor both plaintiff and defendant to choose the county court. Ile proposed, then, that where the town council in any.burough, in which there was an anciiiit local court established, should petition the !avian in council, such petition should be refemsl to the judicial committee to settle the terms and examine into the case, and they should have the power of extinguishing the .n of the local court by transferring it exclusively to the countycourt, lie had framed a clause on this subject. He wished a commission to issue, and inquire into all an cient courts, in order that their lordship, might effectually and safely legislate upon this most important subject —a brancli of the sullect so important that until it was satiw facturily arrow he would never believe that the count court system was in a state of perfection. (War, hear.) He had been pressed to include tribunals of com merce in the bill. Now, upon this subject he would take the liberty of saying that he had the strongest and clearest conviction of the high expediency of these tri bunals. The good they hod produced in France, Belgium, and Holland, it was almost impossible to calculate. He only stationed from attempting to legislate on the subject in the present bill, because the difficulties were such that he thought t hey must be made the mil iject of an entirely separate act. Those tribunals were constituted olmercantile mimeo tirely. These men were appointed by the governments of different countries, such as France, Delirium, and Holland, and they were taken from list. of merchant, and respectable tradesmen, presented by the general body. From three to five gentlemen discharged the duty, sometimes Mr a year, sometimes for two years, and they sat and exercised exclusive juriolietion in the first instance user all mercantile cases whateser. Their clerk or registrar was a gentleman learned in the law ; and, from their decisions, there was an appeal to a court called the Court of Cessation. The admirable brought s. the house by the honourable baronet. His eaplanation was this : the hon. baronet, very late at night or very early in the morning, had loosed a proposal to bring catholic convents within the scope of new law, and that had led him (Mr. Reynolds) to make the nmark he had tittered. He had heard the statement just made by the hon. baronet, and the letter he had read from a menther of that holm, and was of opinion that, so far from netting himself right, the hon. baronet had made himself more wrong than before. Ile (Mr. Reynolds) assured the house that he had it from the best authority (the guardian of M isn Talbot) that she was not,and never had been, a postulant in the convent. But what had Mr. Berkeley *mil in his petition? That Him Talbot was not there as u "pupil or visitor, hut, as a postulant, with the avowed ohjoet of allowing the said Augusta Talbot to take the veil mil become a nun." That was Mr. Berkeley's statement Nu. 1, and it was untrue. Mr. Berkeley next stated, " That year petitioner in deprived of all communication and con . all2loll with his limp-daughter, the said infant Augusta Talbot." That was his statement No. 2. But he held ill bla hand a letter, signed by J. W. Hendren, a catholic priest and bishop, dated 18th March. What did that right reverend prelate any? (The hon. gentleman read the following pansage from the letter of the Rev. Mr. Hendren to the Tawet.) " Some five or six week. ago, Mr. C. F. Berkeley, who had not seen his stepdaughter, nor seemed to trouble himself about her, presented himnelf at the convent, saw Misa Talbot, and as certained from her that she was there by her own free choice, and that she had no intention to leave, as far as that deism:KA on herself. Ile then alluded to the disposal of her property." (Vehement cheering.) That would make it ap pear that the property was the principal object of this visit. (Cheern and counter cheers, mingled with cries of " Oh, oh.") That hon. member said " Oh" with his usual spirit, but he hoped he would let him read these documents with out saying •• Oh "or " No." But the Her. Mr. Hendren said that Mr. Craven Berkeley saw her, and how did that square with the ponnage in which he said that he was " deprived of all communication with her ?" (blear.) Why he had teen her fife weeks before. What was the meaning of till thin? What had that house to do with Minn Talbot or her property ? Were hon. members prepared to convert that house into an arena like Exeter Hall ? Mir,. Talbot was taken care of—(u burst of cheering), Who took can of Mins Talbot? (Hear, hear.) Why the Lord High Chancellor of England. She was a ward in • .. Sir G. GREY said the letter referred to was a letter not addressed by him (Sir G. Grev) to the Registrar-General, but one addressed by the Registrar-General to the clergy men throughout the country asking them to supply certain returns. Ile (Sir G. Grey) thought the letter had already ben laid on the table, but if not he had no objection to its production. LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND) BILL. Mr. STAFFORD begged to ask the Secretary of State for Ireland when it was his intention to bring in the Land lord and Tenant Bill promised at nn early period of the present sec-iou. It was desirable that the government should either bring in this bill soon, or not legislate un the subject this session. Sir W. SOlff BRAILLE said it was the intention et government to bring in a Landlord and Tenant Bill fur IN land this session, but in the present state of public business it MA , impossible to give any information as to the day ea which it would be introduced. STATE OF PUBLIC BUSINESS. Mr. ROCHE wished to recall the attention of the noble lord at the head of the government to the question which had been put to him by the hon. member for Manehistt r (Mr. M. Gib on), who had asked her Majesty's ministers whether, after they took the second reading on this so-called papal aggression bill, they would be prepared to go on with the other business of the country—that was, whether they would keep all other business hung up until they carried this penal measure against the Roman catholic* through the house. Lord J. RUSSELL said—The hon. gentleman (Mr Ruche), let me observe, has put quite a different que-lion to me front that of the right hon. member for Manchester (Mr. M. Gibson). The right hon. member for Manchester complained of the great length of the debate on this catholic question, and asked whether we would not suspend the adjournment of the debate ? That is not the question which has been addressed to me, properly enough, by the him. member (Mr. Roche). I should have been glad enough had the debate been fi nished on Monday night, but, as hut. members wished to speak on the subject, it was deemed proper not to hurry on the amnion it will, how ever, I think be admitted that the subject has ben tolerably exhausted now. But with regard to the question of the bon. member (Mr. Roche) I have no difficulty in answering it. I understood him to ask whether, tier the second reading of this bill, we wouldrucetd with other business. already working of this system it war impossible to describe in any lantintlatt beyond its merits. After some further observe, tious and explanations, Lord Brougham moved that the bill, with the additional clauses, uow read a second time. The LORD CILANVELLOIt considered that many of the suggestions to Ishii"' his noble and learned friend had referred were well deserving attention, and that several of the clauses of this hill might tend to a most useful purpose, to iarry out which, however, it might be neeeisary to mole Sonic amendments in the way of extension. As his noble and harmed friend did not, as he understood, invite discus sion on the present 0CC114041, he would nut enter into the variou.lik-ttits to Which hi. noble and learned friend had refeneiL Ills noble and learned friend had spoken of tribunals of commerce, and no doubt they a. re institutions which in many countries were of gnat value, but it did not therefore follow that they would he advantageous here. Ile imagined that the me reliant, of this country were quite 113 competent to judge of what was hest kir their interest as those of any whir country. Lord 11Ittft:011AM observed that one object of his bill was to prevent the union of the attorney and barrister in tto .am,' Lord ('RAN WORT II remarked that the explanation thy noble and !consist lord had now given suggested to him to importance of their lordships not committing them s. It., until they knew what the details of the bill were, fur he had understood from the Ohs' • g speech of the noble and harried lonl that it was intended to unite the attorney and barrister in the same person. The result of his expe rience led him to heldve that the barrister would make a very bad attormsv, sad that in the matirity of cases the at torney would make an colony hail at %ovate. After a few words from Lord ANlNlittl. and from Lord bitOtlittala in reply, the motion was agreed to, and the bill read a secosd time. Their lordships then adjourned at a quarter past seven o'clock. Chancery — . Her relative was peer of the realm, mai her guardian was a gentleman high in the church of which the young lady herself was a member; and he asked this ques tion in sober serioientss—if a protestant were dragged be fore this house for hating entered a protestant convent — for there were such institutions--(hear, hear)—and the less he said about them the better—what would hare been said in such a ease? What was the case? The lady lu•bmgeel to the highest rank of the aristocracy. She had property. She watt guilty of being educated in a con vent ; was guilty of the additional crime of taking shelter in that convent with the consent of the Lord Chancellor and of Lord Shrewsbury; and bemuse she had thus taken shelter, this Mr. ,'raven Berkeley, who was not of her blood or of her religion, who had no claim of colour or complexion with her, choosing to think she is not sufficiently attended to—(cheer, and re turn cheering)—intruded himself at the convent—and his tooduct was most unwarrantable—and being admitted to on the young lady herself, she told hint she was under no footraint, but intended to dedicate her life to the service of Ood—to spend her time in prayer, and if she thought proper to expend her money in the relief of the poor, mud devot ion to charitable and benevolent purposes. This was the case which had produced all the rant they had ►eared. During the hour and a quarter occupied last night by the noble lord at the head of the govern ment, in reply to the speech of the right hon. baronet the member for Ripon, the noble lord animadverted with great spirit upon the addresses of the right him. member for Ripon and the hon. and learned member for Plymouth, but during the whole time no word of censure fell from the noble lord that could be extended to the speech of the bon. member fur West Surrey. But let it not be said that that speech of the hon. member for West Surrey was the only speech of an offensive character against his countrymen. He thought, indeed, that the speech of the noble lord Mown* might be called No. 2. Retunting to Miss Tal bot's case, he said that unless they denied to catholic lathes the privileges of protestant ladies, and the ladies of Wes. I may - say, as it ha; been _.ly stated, that as , 0011 as the house has decided on the second reading of the bill we shall proceed on the tint order night with the army esti mates, and endeavour to obtain a vote, and introduce the Militia Bill. Immediately after that notice will be given as to what shape the budget will assume, and on the next order day we shall take the vote on the income tax. (Hear, hear.) After some unimportant conversation rind explanations, The question, that this house at its rising du adjourn till Monday, was put and agreed to. MAILS FROM PARIS. Mr. W. BROWN begged to ask the Under-Secretary of State if any stein had been taken for expediting the arrival of the mails front Paris in order that they might be despatt bed hr the morning tunas to the provinces. Mr. C. LEWIS replied that arrangements had been mails for the despatch a the Paris mails to the provinces by the morning mails. ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES ASSUMPTION BILL. The order of the day fur resuming the adjourned debate ! on this bill having been read, Mr. B. OSBORNE, who feared that silence would herein prudent, but was compelled by conscience to speak was willing to admit that a great spirit existed against papa aggression, and he would nut underrate the difficulties set the ministry in dealing with the question. In the peer *jams, he admitted, public opinion was strong on the , Rib. ject. Ile did nut dispute the assertion that the language ' which had been used by the Pope and Cardinal Wiseman hail been arrogant and imperious. (Hear, hear.) But because a Romish eeclesiastic had thought proper to issue a mandate couched in the language of the middle ages, was the government to be alarmed, was parliament tube frightened front its propriety, was the country to be thrown into paroxysms, and were Roman catholles to be stigmatised as beings who were excessively dist (laughter, and "hear, hear")—were the Roman ca= to be accused of violating their duty to their. sovereign because Cardinal AViseman had committed HOUSE OF CONIMONS.—Faimy, MARclt 21. Thy tirzaa►a took the chair at i o'clock. MU. HENRY DRUMMOND AND TILE ROMAN CATHOLIC MENIIIERS. . kyans and all other sects they must not arraign such mat ters as these, and he trus ted they would have no more of them. (Cheering.) Lord J. RUSSELL said he understood the hou. member for Dublin to say that he was present last night when the hoe. member fur West Surrey had made the observations' which the hun. member fur Dublin alluded to as offensive, and that he (Lord J. Russell) had not interrupted the lion. member fur West Surrey or palsied any censure upon hint. He (Lord J. Russell) hail but one sooner. The hon. mem ber knew that he was not present in the house at that time —(hoar, hear)—and, not being there when the hon. gentle man made the observations complained of, he had thought It better for him to refrain altogether from all comment upon the circumstance in his speech after wards. After stating this as a matter of fact the bun. member fur Dublin had alluded to hi. (Lord Russell's) speech of yesterday evening. I must say (continued the noble lord) that I do not perceive, when speaking with respect to the division between the temporal and the spiritual part of the question, that I was to be debarred from any argument which bore upon that point. But I do not know that 1 said anything that ought to be considered as offensive. (Loud c)teers.) I have often heard them ; and in this house, when queetions relating to the Church of England have been discussed; and I say that while no huu. member should use expressions giving pain to the feelings of others, I don't see why expressions should be suppressed, or why a comparatively harmless act, though in an num ptr manner? But it had been said, on bringing forward this bill, that it was an innocent bill, a harmless bill, a mild measure, and the Solicitor-General had laid great stress on this point. Ile (the Solicitor-General) had said—. Why are you disturbing the peace of the country as if we were about to revive the penal laws?" but he (Mr. Osborne) believed it was the first step towards the revival of the penal laws. Because there was no provision for hanging or disembowelling a priest, the measure was not the less penal. Ile gave due credit to the noble lord J. Russell) for expunging some of the ob jectionable clauses of the bill. Ile held, however, with Lecke ' that all religious creeds should be allowed to follow their own course if they did not interfere with the well being of society. He would implore the noble lord to go oue step further, and omit the preamble altogether. (Laughter and " Year, hear. - ) Hon. gen tlemen could not tail to have observed that the sum total of the speeches in favour of the bill hail been with one or two exceptions unmitigated vituperation of the Roman catholic religion. Ile (the Solicitor-General) bad pro fessed to be greatly alarmed at the introduction of the canon law, and he (Mr. Osborne) had at the time seen several hon. gentlemen shrugging up their shoulders at the idea. What was the canon law, but the mode of discipline of the Roman catholic church ? It existed iu Ireland, and still existed. He (Mr. Osborne) had been astonished to hear hon. refer to the bull, - introduced A large number of petitions 4wift been peesentcd, Mr. ItEYNOLDS begged Inman seeing the Secretary to the Treasury in his place, to mike the usual motion that the house, at it. rising, do adjourn till Monday mat. Mr. MOORE inuuediately rose and said that he would take advantage of this caution, and before the house proceeded to its regular business, to call the attention of the Speaker to a subject full of painful recollections. What he had urged last night was this—that to speak, not merely with irreverence, but with a levity almost amounting to indecency, of a sacred name which all generations of Christians called •• blessed," ought not to be per mitted in any assembly professing Christianity. (Loud thesis.) It could not be contended that the offensive expressions on the ``,art of the hon. member for West Surrey applied merely to what he called "false miracles - anal ••abutuinahle impostures," for there was a decent a. well as an indecent mode of making such refer ewes. He (Mr. Moore) appealed to any hon. gentleman who might question the circumstance whether, if such allusions, instead of having been made to the mother of God, had been made to the mother of princes in this country (whom might God defend from indignity anal insult), the interference of the house would not immediately have checked such profanation. (lieu, hear.) What he had further urged was this, that the etprv.i.ons which the hon. member for West Surrey had not M sitated to make use of, and which he (Mr. Moore) would imitate the right hon. leuenart the member fur Ripon in re fusing to sully his lips with repeating, in reference to certain communities of Christian ladies dedicating their -. gentlemen me iota be jestriined, when discussing the question, from Io crena elomini, and say that it had never been mks anty pint or argument that is necessary to the do- into Ireland. But how did this bull affect the canon law ? =1 dour opinions. (Cheers.) As boo. gentlemen were aware, under the vicarseapostolie, BERKELEY trusted the house would bear all that was vexatious in the canon law existed at that mo ld* him fur a very short time, as the hem. member fur merit. At that moment a priest could, under the canon Dublin had stated in distinct terms that the statement put law, be suspended by the vicars-apostolic, without any before the house be the bun. baronet the member for the reason being assigned. It had been asked who called for Daiversity of OrifUrel, founded on a statement by a relative this movement on the part of the Pope ? It was an ha d was not a mistake, but that that statement was portant question, and one easily answered. The Roman a Shohood He would Silt'. if that Craven Berke ley to whom catholic laity had called for it, the priests had called for iht Ms. member refivreti had had a seat in that house, the it, not as an insult to the _people of this country, but as a Wm. member would not have dared to make— (Omer)— protection to themselves. Honourable gentlemen ought to Oat amisertion. What the hoe. member had stated was know that vicars apostolic were the mere agents of the Pope, without foundation. whereas the bishops were not so, but were prime ministers Yr. REYNOLDS denied having used the word false- in their own sees. (Hear, hear.) In reading a very re flood. He did not say that the object of the hun. and markable pamphlet by Mr. O'Dwyer, he (Mr. Osborne) had gallant admiral's brother in going to the convent was the met with this very extraordinary statement—that Mr. Pitt money. es Oh, oh," and laughter.) Ile had merely said in 1799 suggested to Cardinal Erskine the propriety of doing that he thought--and he thought so still—that that formed away with vicars apostolic and creating British bishops. lan ingredient in his object. (" Oh, oh.") (Ikar, hear.) Surely they ought not to dissent from what Lord ARUNDEL and SL RREY informed the honest Mr. l'itt thought constitutional. Lord Lyndhurst had said that a petition upon this subject had been brought into the that if we allowed doctrine and discipline of u religion to Court of Chancery, and was appointed for hearing on be carried on, it should be permitted to be carried Retorday. It would be well, therefore, not to discuss the on properly; and how, he (Mr. Osborne) asked, could matter now—(hear, hear))—or the case might be prejudged the Doman catholic religion be. carried on properly baste it was heard. (Hear, hear.) I without bishops, it being an episcopate church ? The noble Sir B. HALL said he should avoid making soy allusion lord (Lord J. Russell) in a discussion on the state of Ire whatever, as he otherwise might have done if he had nut' land had said that it was " a foolish prohibition " which been informed of what was likely to take piker to-morrow declared that the Roman Catholic bishops should not be in the Court of Chanetry in the ease of Miss Talbot. But allowed to take: the titles of their respective dioceses. Why, he must say one thing, and call the attention of the house if the noble lord thought it a foolish prohibition, did he to a matter of great importance. The statement of the bring in this measure to prevent Roman Catholic bishops Wes is emir/ sod Piety, erTig ha. oh% sat is be thishatiul in a simmtbly of Eaglisit gentkinea. (Cheers.) And he etwilheatly appealed in this matter, hot solely to the accom plished and cultivated minds of English gentlemen, but to the intuitive perception of all Englishmen, against the prurient fancies of obscene senility. and against all such dAstarilly insinuations. (Loud cries of 4. Order.") The SPEAKER—The boa. member has used a moot dis orderly expression. (Cheer..) Mr. 3WQRE would say then against all such unmanly insinuation.. The SPEAKER then formally rut the question, that the house, ut its rising. do adjourn till Moutlay neat. Sir G. CLERK hereupon interposed, and amid the noise and cunfu•ion of the house, attempted to cull up Sir G. Grey in reply to a question, very indistinctly heard, in re ference to the census. Lord J. RUSSELL strongly urged members to avoid irritating topics; and after a few words from Mr. J. O'Connell and Sir R. Inglis, the subject appeared to drop, for _ _ Sir R. INGLIS went on to ny that, leaving that dummies. be won't' take the opportunity of referring to umber bat din a kindred oubjcet. The hon. member for Dalai(Mt. Saybolds) had given, the other night, a eoa being called by the it sees ? Ile (Mr. Osborne) feared that • while they were having their attention turned to Home, the most serious inroad had been made on religious liberty, and when he rec.tlled to mind the language and the expres sions which had been made use of in that house and elsewhere, - by those who called themselves staunch vote teats, h.., was certainly punk(' to know what a staunch pro;. slant was? Having cited passages from royal coronation oaths and official speeches to prove that persecution had been a feature in all religions, Mr. Osborne said that another subject was how far our universities conduced to the purity of that teaching. vaT, was it not notorious that the doctrines of the Church of England were as diverse almost as the parishes of the Church of England i Was it not notorious that in one parish, men hoard of the authority of the church, and in another they were told of the 41-sufficiency of scripture. Go to l'imlico, and they had auricular confession. Go to Liverpool, and a elergy• 'man there said confessors ought to be put to death. Talk of intolerance! What happened the other day at Chichester? Why, a respected dissenting minister was denied the rites of sepulture in the churchyard, because he was a dis.senter land a teacher of dissenters. (Hear, hear.) Why, all this drawinr off of their attention to what was going on in foreign countri ro ? They had to do with England. But who were the laity and the clergy of England to look to ? The Bishop of Oxfu:d, in answer to an address from Wickham (so me understood him), denial that there were any tractarian doe:trill., in the church. And what did he do? Ile ap pointed Dr. Pussy, who had been the great fisher of men fur the tractarians, to a preachership at Oxford. Should they go to the Bishop of Bath and %Veils, or should they go to the metropolitan bishop, who was quite ready to allow candle, provided they were nut snuffed ? (Laughter.) The people of England would be more obliged to the bishops if they would carry out the principles of the Reformation and reform their own church. And they would be still more obliged if the hon. baronet the member fur Oxford, instead of raising a cry of stop thief ut the usurpations of a cardinal, would overhaul the university system. Was it not notorious that the whole of our young ecclesiastics were indoctrinated with mediaeval notions at Oxford ? What was Dr. Hampden persecuted for ? Because he was not a believer in tra ditions. And_ what were the recommendations to preferment ? The traetarian tendencies of the professors. Only last week one was appointed to a parish, a gentleman ' of great learning, he dared say, but who laboured under the ' misfortune of having been suspended by two bishops fur holding what were called tractarian tenets. This was the state of Oxford, and here they were talking about Rome when they ought to be reforming Oxford. He feared that while Rome was attacking them in the front, Oxford was at tacking them in the rear; and he very much feared, not so much the pastorals that issued front the Flaminian gate— these might be insulting, but at least they were open—but it was the publications that proceeded from Auriol and Christchurch ; these were the pastorals that he dreaded, be cause he knew they were not only insulting, but insidious. It was the enemies that were within, not the enemies that were without, that he feared. Ile was strongly of opinion that pro tection, which was said to be the bane of agriculture, would be the bane of protestantism too. The church—the act of parlia ment church—if she was fated to fall, would fall not from the efforts from without, but from the efforts of those within. He maintained that the noble lord would give Ito satisfaction by this bill. Sooner or later he must moot this question of the state of the church of England, and sooner ur later he must reform with a high hand the universities of this coun try. (Hear, hear.) But if he assumed, for the sake of argument, that the application of some measure on papal ag pression might be defensible in this country,defensible because it was essentially a protestant country, and that the greater portion of its inhabitants were protestauts, he wanted to know from the noble lord what reason lie had for extend ing it to Ireland. Was that recommended by the right hon. gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, whom he never saw in his place ? (A laugh.) Was it recommended by the hon. gentleman the Solicitor-General for Ireland, who was always absent ? (Laughter.) Did they recommend this measure for Ireland ? (Hear, hear.) \% by Ireland, up to this moment, exhausted by misfortune, had been peaceful; sectarianism was dying out. The only aggression in that country was the aggression of the paid church of the miuurity. But they were even tolerating that. They were more engaged about poor rates than theology—speculating more about potatoes than doctrines. But this measure had excited the old theological hatred, and he would tell theta what more it had done—it had given an additional and increased power I to the priests. Now he wanted to know under what pre text this measure had been extended to Ireland, 111111 who hail recommended it ? There was a set of people who wished it. These worthy gentlemen were thi! liish pro testant bishops ; but what statesman in his senses would take the opinion of the Irish protestant bishops as to govern ing Ireland ? Was the noble lord ready to do away with the system of national education and with the Maynooth grant ? It was not peculiar to the Roman catholic, to object to edu cation. It was only since the laity insisted upon education that the clergy were willing they should have it. And, therefore, when he saw Roman cathulic ecclesiastics obct to education of a particular sort lie was not surprised. But the noble lord said a Roman catholic prelate told hint ho objected to education unless it was based upon a certain theory. That was not peculiar to Roman catholi c .. Mr. Sewell, the late professor of moral philosophy ut Oxford, published a book on Christian morals, in whi c h h e sa id it was impassible for any one to attain to the knowledge of any science unless he was well acquainted with theology: he said they might expect to find the figure of the cross all over the world, and that he should not be surprised to find that all mathe matical figures were reducible to this element, a simple column with lateral processes. Another passage was equally strong. The author stated that he believed the geologist deeply impressed with the mysteries of baptism would not have accounted for the formation of the globe by the action of fire and water. (A laugh.) What baptism had to do with geology, he (Mr. Osborne) did Rot know. But this was only a sample of what people ix their own church were teaching; and when the noble lord said the Roman catholic, would not allow anybody to educate their yonth but themselves, he should vmember that neither would the protestant clergy. And when the synod of Thurles was condemned for its proceed ing with regard to the "Godless colleges," it shuuld be remembered that it was the hon. baronet the member for the University of Oxford who first gave them that ap pellation. Then the right hon. gentleman the mem ber for Wiltshire, alluded to the example of the dissenting ministers, and said they joined the Anti-corn-Law League, and took part in it. He might have come nearer home. Pro bably it was not convenient fur that aide of tho house to mention this subject, but he held in his hand a protest of the bishops of Ireland against national education. They said it was with the utmost reluctance—they always said so—that they felt themselves obliged to protest against the plan. But were they content with protesting ? By no means. No clergyman had even a chance of getting pre ferment who was favourable to national education ; he was excluded from all the rank and emolument, of his profession, and he once heard a noble prelate call these schools devil's whouly The hon. baronet called the colleges Godless col leges, but the Bishop of Cashel coaled the schools devil's schools.— [A Voice: A catholic bishop ?]—No ; Roman catholic bishops never made these violent speeches. Here es the speech of a bishop in receipt of some 5,0001. a year, ith great patronage, with a small congregation. (Laugh t.•:.) This bishop said, speaking of the national school., it was a hopeful feature of the times that out of 2,000 clergy men 1,500 were against them. They were not afraid to stand out in defence of the truth, and against the mock liberality of blinded measures of the present government. (Laughter.) But after all this vitu peration of Roman catholic', he asked the house and he asked the country what did they propose to do ? Had they any objection. to make them good subjects because they could not make them indifferent protestants ? He asked them were they going to endanger the state because they could not enlarge their church? The real bishops of Ireland were your I.lr. M'liales and your Dr. Cullen., not Italian monks. That was not a wise expressiun to pro ceed from the treasury bench, and from a law adviser of the crown. (Cheers.) It would be better if he turned his attention to the Italian monks who lived at Oxford. But he perfectly agreed in a sentiment by the hon. and learned it( ntleman, the member for Plymouth. I n th a t l um i nous speech of his, he said the state was indebted to all reli gams that inculcated morality and obedience to the laws. lie opposed this bill because he thought it founded ou bad policy ; hut, above all, he opposed it on true protest ant grounds, because it trenched upon the principles of the reformation. Ile opposed it because in his heart he believed it trenched upon the right of the exercise of private judg ment. Cheers.) Mr. ISAILLIE COCHRANE charged the whole no- Popery agitation upon Lord John Russell, but demanded whether, sometime previously to the publication of the Dur ham letter, his lordship had not expressed to the Bishop of London his opinion that the Popish aggression was of no consequence whatever? The ribaldry which this agitation had occasioned against the catholic religion was disgusting. Complimenting the eatholics for their forbearance under revere provocation, he announced that, having protested against the tone which had been adopted in reference to their religion, he should vote fur the second reading of the asap Mr. C. FORTESQUE opposed the bill, though aware he should vote against the excited, though transient, feel ing of the majority of the country, in whose movement he saw much to blame and to condemn. If the bill would not a. he believed, effectual for good, it would be effectual for much evil. The act of the Pope must be judged by the maxims of the 19th, n o t th e 16 t h century. To say that an ecclesiastical act was an invasion of the crown was a pure anachronism. Ile admitted that there had been a real ag gronion by the Pope upon the church of England, but it was so entirely spiritual that parliament and the state could take no cognisance of it. The bill, he thought, was founded upon false principles of church government, and was likely to do the deepest injustice to Ireland. Mr. ClllLDsupported the bill, but without entering into its intrinsic meits. 3lr. GOULD said, if there had been an aggression, it was not political, but an aggression upon the church of Eng land, who had no right to complain, since she avowed that she was antagonistic to Rome. For this reason, and because he considered there had been no insult intended or perpe trated, be should vote for the amendment. Mr. W. J. FOR said he had no intention of entering into the general question, but wished merely to give his rea,on for his own vote, and to point out one or two fallacies that had been very extensively put forward. The principle on which he should vote against the bill was this—that it was sot merely an abridgment of toleration as at present enjoyed by Roman Catholics, but an infringement on that great principle of religious liberty towards wnich the legis lation of this country had steadily tended for 130 years. (lieu.) This was a principle which could not be ab ridged, in any sect or church, not even in the most obnozione, or those which might have given the greatest provocation— , (and he by no means denied that great provocation had been given in this instance;, without also damaging the position, and invading in come measure, directly or indirectly, the rights of all other non-estehlished acct., churches, or deneminatious. (Hear, hear.) This hill was an interference with the int. rnal organieatiou of a non-esta blished church. With an established church they had a right to interfere. An established church bartered something of its Christian liberty for power, emolument, and influence. It thereby invited the state to interpose in its regulation, and to make such arrangements as it thought Et. With non-established churches, the principle of religious liberty being admitted as the mundetion of legislation, the state had no such concern ; and this measure teuded in principle to invade the rights both of catholic and mite stant non conformists. The fact that it did so had appeared very promptly—he referred to the ease of the Scotch episco paliau dissenters. The government, in its hot pace to shoot Its arrow at popery, immediately found that it had wounded episeopalian dissent in Scotland, and there was a Mit. feesion of this in the announcement that a clause would be introduced when the bill was in committee, exempting that particular dissenting chord. from its operation—a con cession which was altogether fatal to the character of the bill. (Hear, hear.) This, a strung ease in itself, had some remarkable points of coincidence with the case of the Roman =holies. The Scotch bishops belonged • to a dissenting community, for such they uudoubteely were in that country ; they had the episcopal title which it had been contended, especially by the Solicitor-Gentral, was a civil as well as a religious designation—they held a terri torial distinction. Whet, then, had they to urge in favour of exemption from the operation oflthis bill more than ca- ; tholies had to urge. They said, in their petition, that they hod these territorial designations from the necessity of describing the limits within which they respectively exercised their episcopal functions , . This was not peculiar to a Scotch bishop; it belonged to bishops everywhere. A bishop was an overseer, he oversaw somebody some where— (hear, hear)—and how could it be known what plum be • overlooked but by a dewription which had reference to ter ritory ? The Scotch bishops further urged that in this , use of the ancient names of sees there had been no idea of as suming temporal rank. This, ton, the catholies might urge ; rind if temporal rank and its ordinary accompani ments had bee n enjoyed by the catholic bishops in Ireland, that had been the work of the government there, rather than of the catholic Wilma themselves. The Scotch bishops added that the use of ouch territorial dot riptions was necessarily implied by diocesan episcopacy ; and this, in their case, was rendered illegal by the bill under a heavy penalty. They recognised no authority which could dis pense with that episcopal system, which they absolutely be lieved to be of apostolic institution. The [catholic bishops pleaded apostolic institution also ; they derived their descent from the same source ; and they had a right to the full benefit of this plea. The arguments in the petition of the Scotch bishops established three pollee i-1 he moral necessity of territorial titles to the episcopal office—that such titles did not imply the assumption of temporal jurisdiction—and that they did not imply the assumption of spirituel juris diction beyond their own communion. it was ar gued that a catholic bishop claimed absolute dominion over all the persons within the district describesi as his diocese, and when this was resented as an aggression, he mud ask whether in repelling it it was to be undenterel that the church on whose behalf it wee repelled claimed such juris diction for itself? Because, if it did, there were millions in this country who would alike protest against the episcopal authority over them either of catholic or pro testant bishops. (Hear, hear.) But the case of the Scotch bishops was nut the only one in which this measure bore upon other elesees of nonwonforming religionists in this country besides the Roman catholies. Whet was to be done with the methodists? Their euin•rintenelente of Lancashire, Stnffordshire, and so on, were as much at variance with the spirit of the law as if they were called bishops. Was the law to be evaded merely by trans lating "bishop" into another language, or taking a synonymous term with a different derivatiuu ? If evasion were so easy, what was the measure worth as against the catholies ? If evasion was not to IX` allowed, what was the condition of the methodists ? They were exposed to the brunt of this measure. Besides, the title of " bishop" was no sect or church monopoly; it Wll4 a common Chris tian inheritance. (Hear, hear.) There might arise within this country, and circumstance, in the present state of the established church did not put it beyond the limits of probability, a free episcopal church, ns a five presbyterian church Lad ;distil in Scotland. (Hear, hear.) In that case the aasumptian of the episcopal title, and by a ;necessary result, no the Scotch bishops said, of some terri torial description with that title, would arise , here ; and I such a church, even b. fore its origin, would have the ban of the law upon it. Thus the measure attacked, on one hand, the most ancient of Christian churches, and on the other that which might exist as a new Christian church ; and, though the right were latent, it was one which no hotly of Christians ought to be displaced from the posseesion of. (Hear.) All Christians felt they had a right to use this title. It had even been matter of consideration with different dissenting bodies whether their preachers should not adopt it. The Moravians (lid use the title ; they had bishops with a foreign origin, appointed at a city on the continent. The methieliets in America used the title; and in all churches, however small in numhers or poor in circumstances, there was the right of calling their minister, bishops, if they . eltaeed, in stead of pastors—a right which they inhented from a higher law than any a hidi that house could make—a right with which it was not fitting that the laws made by that house should interfere. (War, hear.) It had been argued and denied in that discussion, strongly on both side , , that an episcopate was a ;onion of the natural development of the Roman catholic religion, that it belonged to the tolera tion of that religion, and was implied in the recogaition of catholicism as a religion at all. Ile believed this to be the case. All questions of foreign power and divided allegiance he held to belong to the discussions of two-and-twenty years ago. (Hear, hear.) That the l'ope was either a prince or is foreigner was an accident ; it was not essential to the catholic religion. He would be l'ope equally it' he were' deposed, or if he were a British subject. (Hear, hear.) This was a mere accidental connexion with his spiritual character, which ought to le thrown out of ac count altogether, us we threw out of account the foreign origin of many men who had founded sects and churches, earned a great name, and exercised extensive influence in countries with which they had nothing to do. The metho dists in America übeyed John Wesley, though he was a foreigner. There were Wets in this country which obeyed Zinzenderf and Swedenborg, though they were foreigners. Christianity overrode nationality. It had done so from the very first. But the full development of its priesthood, through all its gradations, was more essential to the ca tholic church than it could be to any other church : for this simple reason: catholice took the dogmas, the facts, the precepts of religion from their sacerdotal authorities— (hear, hear)—protestante took, or professed to take, theirs from the New Testament. (Hear, hear.) The priesthood was the eatholic's living testament, his incorporate Bible; and to interpose between him and the eh:velum:mut of that priesthood, came to much the same thing as would inter position between prutestants and the Bible. (Hear, hear.) Such an episcopate bad always been held neces sary. It was said that under vicars-apostolic the catholic. had all the provisions which could possibly be needed for their various religious duties. They thennelves must lee the judges of that. (heir, hear.) And it was the fact, the historical fact, that they never had Icon satisfied with that arrangement of vicars-apostolie—that there always had been, from the very first, a craving after an episcopate. (Hear.) Dr. Vowles Short, now bishop of St. Asiph, in the fifth edition of a work of hie, published in IS-1 i sub sequent to his appointment to the Ilse he now held, ;aid— " Ireland has Roman catholic biehope of her own, who arc independent of Rome, as far as Roman ( etholiee can he; and the members of that communion in Eng land, have much reason to complain that they have never had an episcopal government." The ne cessity of an episcopate was felt by every church which had had episcopal origin, which had enjoyed the in stitution, and looked upon it as of scriptural origin. The Lad heard of countries being mapped out ecclesias tically; but the Bishop of Oxford, in his "History of the, Episcopate in America," had prefixed to it a Inv of the United States, in which the whole of that great country from sea to sea was marked and partitioned by dotted lines iuto Anglican dioceses. (Hear, hear.) A sophism which had prevailed very much in that debate, commencing with the able speech of the noble lord in intruducieg the bill, had been to take all the enormities of u priesthood, from the dark ages to the present time, and ascribe them all to the Roman catholic priesthood peculiarly. The noble lord had traced the offencesof the priesthood and priestcraft down to the Reformation ; there:the line divided, and he had only taken one portion; had he pursued the other, he would have found most sanguinary and Wrociuus acts. (Hear.) The fallacy was in ascribing to one priesthood in particular what belonged to priesthoods in general. All the priest hoods of all religions, in all countries and ages, had been ambitious, grasping, requiring to be kept in check, showing their bad qualities when they were dominant, and some times doing much to balance the account in the eye of the historian by their devotion to beuignant works, to kind ness, and to charity, through great privation, and when they were in poverty, as had been remarkably the case with the Roman catholic priesthood of the sister country. The noble lord (Lord J. Russell) appeared angry with the Roman catholic clergy because they discouutenanced the , proposed system of national education ; but, at the same time, where were there such advocates of the system of; national education as the Roman catholic clergy of . Ireland —three-fourths of whom were in favour of it, though the great majority of the protestant clergy of that country were opposed to the evdem ? (Hear, hear.) The consequ en c e was that thousands of children in that cuuutry were enjoy ing the blessing of education. (Hear, hear.) lie (Mr. Fox) believed that in many instances the catholic clergy were opposed to education, and sought uedue control over it; but that was the common tendency of every priesthood. He did not think the petitions against papal aggression had much to do with the bill before the house. (Herr.) Scarcely any class of persons in that house, even amongst those who were supporters of the bill, had spoken iu the debate. (Hear, hear.) How many supporters of the bill had spoken I in the debate l . (Hear, hear,) Scarc e ly an y ; an d t h ose who were prepared to vote fur it would do so nut because they liked it. (Hear, hear.) In fact the measure found favour with none ; it went too far for ionic, and not far enough for others. (Hear, hear.) lu fact, th: mean required by the country was something that would check the progress of popery, that popery which was believed by some to be dangerous to civil and religious liberty, and by others to be fatal to the salvation of men's souls. (Cries of " Hear, hear," from the protectionist benches.) Ile respected the feeling, though he did not coincide' in it. The people wished to see the progress of popery arrested, but which the bill before the hoose had nut the most remote chance of effecting. (Bear, hear) Anything done in that way should be areomplislail by a ditresentkiail of legislation. Whilet believing the hill before the house would be ineffective for trouil, he likewise Iselic veil it was calculated to be productive of in :cis misehiel. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord, he feuded, had not exercised u wise discretion in introducing the bill. (Hear, hear.) By that hill he (Mr. Fox) saw the government as well as the party of the nolde lord shattered to atoms; the public business d. eyed ; the time of the legislature occupied ' as well as the tone of its deliberations materially lowered. (Cries of " Hear, hear.") Ireland was inflamed ; the passions of the people of this country were exciP cl, raging and working havoc amongst the social relations of fe:ends, and all that to placate the wounded pride of a tiew cttil,laStieS . (" Hear, hear," and cheers.) Mr. WALPOLE (whose opening observations were in audible in the gallery) said he was anxious to notice, in the outset, an olgeryntion se hich occurred in the able and tem perate *path of the hon. gentle tuan who had just sat clown. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman had said, and he h- Lewd hint in error as to his assertion being an aphorism, that " Christianity overrides netiandite." Now he (Mr. Walpole) believed that Christianity so far from doine any such thing. recognised nationality; and on that ground he dissented from the " aphorism" of the hen. gen tleman. Wishing to discuss the question Carly and openly, he thought he could not do bete r than state what he believed to 1w the two questions ut isstie— First, whether the conduct of Risme in c stehlislihre within this realm a territorial hierarchy was not an act of aggreo sion which they should notice. Assuming that qut stem to he auswered in the affirmative, the other and more int port.int question arose, namely, in what way it should he met, end whether the measur• proposed by the government was or was not suitable to the evasion. (Hear.) Now with regard to the first question, considering it related to the sovereignty of the crown of England, (Ind in that he intendisl to rest his argument. he should own he heard with astonishment the eetraorli nary se.. ech of the right. hem IIiVIII' , CT for Ripon (sir ,lames Graham), but for which he thought the ittiestien would admit of I only one slower. The right honourable member for Ripon fully admitted that the act of the Pope was aggressive and Renton:: and, admitting that, he :Omitted the whole of his )lr. Walpole's) case. (Hear, hear.) It was an often -1 sive aggression, submission to which nicer hail been, and he trusted never would be, characteristic of the people of Enrilincl. (Hear, hear.) Her alajestyae government had I razed this measure on twit grime's. they asserted there had li.en an insult offered, :to well as an injury dime. to this country. The noble lots! (Lord Arundel and Suerey) denied the one, and disclaimed the other. (" Hear. heat," from Lord Arundel and Surrey.) If the question wens one that might he derided by mere opinion, he (Mr. Wal pole) was happy to be able to state that no opinion would be eutitleil to more weight than that of the noble lord ; but us the question could not be determined by opinion, it should be deter mined by the nature and character of the dorm nents. as well as the sense in which they had bet n I received by the recognised organs of the Romish church, as oleo the consequences, if submitted to, to which they world lead. (Hear, hear.) Now, tio person who hail nail the papal document or Cardinal Wiseman's pastoral could fail to be struck with the force of what had been so admirably said by that eminent lawyer, Sir E. Smitten, namely, that " he felt a. if a blow had been persmally struck at him.' (Hear, hear.) He believed that sentiment was a true ex ponent of the public feeling. The spontaneous instinct of the whole people had taken alarm : and they really felt as if s• a blow had been pyre malty strut k at thou. (Hear, hear.) Why did they so feel ? Because they heard for the first time the latiguuge of sovereignty used towards them, not by their Queen, whom the y loved and obeyed, but by a foreign prelate, whose powers and encroachments they and their ancestors had cocci sefully defied. (blear. hear.) They well knew from history that if that language meant as it indicated, their liberties as well as their religion were in danger—(hcar, hear)—and under these eireumdmices the people saw sufficient to excite a feeling of defence. (Hear, hear.) Now. if these (ligaments meant what they put fort h,l he asserted they should not he submitted to. ((pear, hear.)) If these documents hail been submitted to, the consequence would be the establishing of an i iiiiirel inn in intectiii ; and, therefore, it was right to vindicate the authiinty of the Queen and to prevent sucha consequence. (Hear.) As otherwise, as Lord Bacon had express, cl him-elf on a similar occasion, " the Pope wooled challenge competition, and become the rival of the Queen for the h-ei rt. and obedience of the Queen's subjects.•• (blear.) Now, Ow the justification of the Roman ea:holies for them:acts In the first place, it was stated that the meaning of the documents had been misunderstood : next, that the power set llp WWI a spiritual power ; and thirdly, that the eliange front vicar• npostolic tit bishops was amens change in words or names, which would have no effector the laws or institu tions of the yountry. (Hear, hear.) As to the first, he tulmitted that it' these words or language had been inisuu , desist ak they ought not to dwell any longer on them. (Hear, hear.) But he feared that these words hail not been misunderstood. (blear, hear.) It was unfortunate that less ambiguous expressions were not used by that power. which nttended to wards and made such e see Dent use of them—(!lmer, hear) ; and at was still more unfit:a:nate that, when found fault with. ant a word iu retra , tation 4.r explanation wits utt, feel or written. (Hear, hear.) Indeed, so far from being corrected or explained, 1 they had hen reasserted and affirmed in a manner still 1 more offensive Oren in the original documents. (Hear, hear.) The nano*/ in France, :mil the iii6let in Eug land, had so written. The homer journal stated that, as st. Oratory hail transferred the pritnacy of London to router- Imay. es did l'ius IX. transfe r the primacy from theme to Westminster. He had substituted Southwark for Louth's., and aholisited all the ancient t 41,. (Hear, hear.) the Tablet said that " Route' had spoken and octet:. She hail divided the land into dioceses, and plated ince each a palm, 10 5\11 , 411 all illipliwd persistis e. ere openly conatnanded to submit themselves in ecc:o..nis• tical mattes under pain 1.1 . damnation." (hear, lwar.) Now. considering the Queen was the head of the church, mil resident within one of the new preemie. el Clio- CCAN, he (Mr. Walpole) was not surprised that the noble hod ,',Lorel .1. Russell) should consider the doctrine of 11w Pope Mem:skew with the rights of the mason and the in dependence of the religious feelings of the nation at large. (Hear, hear.) Well, secondly it hail been said that the power aimed at was entirely spiritual; and the right lion. member for Ripon took them to task for not distingu:shing between tett:e.rals and spirituals. But the noble turd the Secretary fir Foreign Affairs (Lord Palmerston) told them the other night that the powt rof the Pope 111111 a double action. (Hear, hear.) It really never was purely spiritual. If so, it ought to be left tot irely to himself. But if the power of the Pope were exereistA in temporal matters, though in the guise of spirituel, Ids spirituality should not be taken as an excuse. (Hear, hear.) The fact was, the power of the Pope might be spi ritual in its means, but it never was entirely summed iu its objects. (Hear, hear.)' It was always acting through tent pond aunts, and with temporal purposes, and attaining tempera! cssnsequences. (Hear hear.) In that respect it was different front all those other ' institutions to which it had been compareel by the honourable member for Ply mouth, such as the Wesleyan body and the Ephe apalicin watt iu Scotland. (Hear, hear.) Thew sects did not claim any temporal power ur power committed tic them by a foreign potentate claiming to be •ii prerno and universal. (Hear, hear.) The power 1 of the Pope woo indirectly a temporal power exercising a certain degree of temporal influence ; but the temporal and the spiritual powers were both used, although only the spi . ritual was avowed—though history showed that the Pope spiritualised matters for his own purpose. (" Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Therefore it was all the same to the people of this country whether they were struck at directly or in directly. It signified nothing whether the- Pope struck at the authority of the church of England indirectly or by u downright buow. (Hear, hear.) lie believed every nation in Europe had always taken care to guard and control the powers of the Pope, even in cases where thew tuitions were wiling to do homage to him in spiritual matter*. Therefore the new system sought to be introduced could not he looked upon as a mere change in words and names, but must be looked upon as has itig a temporal baaring, and calculated to inflict temporal injury in this country. (Hear, hear.) It ought always to lie borne in mind that the system of vicars apostolic, by means of which the doctrines of the Roman church had been ad ministered in this country for so many yeas, was suf.& lent fur all religious purposes, awl that the system was thimble: of expansion to any extent, according to the requirements of the Roman catholic hotly. On this occlusion, as on all others, he would not confine himself to the evidence of protestante; lie would new take Cardinal Wisetnati him self. The reason given Icy the cardinal was, that "they could not have an organic body of union without a hierar chy, the right of meeting in synod, and the promulgation of the canon law in England"—thus, by his own testi mony, furnishing proofs of the absolute necessity that existed for opposing his innovations. (Hear, hear.) These matters—the right to meet in synod and so forth—which they denied to the bishops of the established church, were to be conceded without a murmur, and the Callon law of Rome let loose over the land. (Hear, hear.) Was it any wonder, then, that the people should have taken fright at the prospect of such a state of things ? (Hear. hear.) If he understood the operation of the canon Lew it was this—that under vicars apostolic the Roman catholics of this country would be governed by the same laws us the protestants; but if the canon law were introduced the Roman catholics would be governed by a system tinder which they would be called on to pay obedience to the Pope, and, thus might be plated in a position which would be inconsistent with their duty to the Queen. (Oh, oh.) He admitted thot there were difficulties surrounding the question which it was not easy to untangle. (hear, hear) He had real much on the subject, and with an anxious, de sire to come to a just conclusion; and the conclusion at which he had arrived was that which he bad just stated. (Hear, hear.) If he was proved to be in error, he would willingly give it up. But if he were not in error ; if the matter stood as he had stated, then this change was not a mere question of names between vicars apostolic and bishops in ordinary, but it wee a question whether the Pope's law or the Queen's law was to prevail in this country. (Cheers.) He thought the people of this country had strong reasons to complain of this aggression on three grounds. First, Isaause the papal brief was contrary to the law of nations; secondly, because it was opposed in foto, as ho would undertake to show, to the law of England ; cued, thirdly, became it was utterly inconsistent with and re ' penmen to the genius and spirit of our constitution. ' (Hear, hear) The low of nations required, and it was limo...wary for the peace of the world that it should i.o re quire, that no aggression should be =ads by one power 0 f 0