The Express. — London, England, 1848-02-18 00:00:00

to give the bill • second reading ; mad in the committee he would move a proviso or an addi tional clause, providing for the continued existence of those laws which he thought it important to maintain inviolate. Lord STANLEY said he bad never entertained any doubt of the uniform sineerity sad uprightness of purpose of the 1 noble duke who had last spoken. (Hear, hear.) But if he believed that the rights of the people of this country, or the ruble and privileges of the monarch, were affecW by this bill, or that the pretensions of the Pope to spirituel pre eminence sod temporary authority might be thereby strengthened, no consideration could induce him to consent to the second reading. Bat he did not believe that it in volved any violation of the principle on which the Bill of Rights was founded. (Hear, hear.) Still, it being well known that for the last two hundred years intercourse with the court of Rome had been prohibited by • strong moral feeling —or, it might be, by the prejudices of this pro wawa nation—no measure, hastily introduced as this bad been, ought to be hastily carried, or without due considera tion by the countryat large. (Hear, hear.) The noble mar quis himself, on the part of the government, had declared, by the introduction of this bill, that grave doubts bad existed as to the interpretation of the statutes alluded to ; sail as the practice had, for the last 180 yeses, been contrary to what this bill went to sanction, it was clear that the measure was. to all intents, an enacting bill, empowering her Majesty to do what she could not do as the law previ ousl y stood. The noble marquis bad assumed that all the current of history and of opinion was in favour of intercourse with Rome, prior to the acts in question ; hut this was not so, as was evinced by the course taken by the Duke of Somerset in the case referred to by the noble marquis. Then, as to the policy of the measure, if it were deemed necessary by government that her Majesty should be freed from the existing restrictions, the proper and most dignified course would have been to have introduced the subject in the speech front the throne; or, if the neces sity was not then foreseen, at least to have made it the subject of a special formal message to the hoses Instead of that, the noble marquis had risen, after a debate on the West India question, and had laid the bill on the table with the arms nonchalance as if it had been nothing more than a turnpike trust bill. (Hear, hear.) Surely that was not the mode in which a great measure like this should be dealt with ; and he hoped their lordships would not allow it to be hastily slurred over. (Hear, hear.) Even, in the interest of the bill itself, the fullest opportunity ought to be given for its thorough consideration. The noble mantels might, at least, have made some communication as to the late pro ceedings at the court of Rome, sad have informed their lord ships what was the result of the intercourse which had taken place between Lord Minto and that court. It might be said that that intercourse was unofficial ; and if there were really say impediment to this intercourse in existing sets of parlia ment, Rad Minto, and the noble lord at the head of foreign affairs had placed themselves is a very difficult position. For in a despatch dated in October bat the *obis earl was requested by Lord Palmerston to press on the court of Rome the remova l' me the Jesuits front Switzerland, with the view of preventing war in that country. Earl Mink, in his reply, stated that he had bad some conversation on the sub ject with the cardinal secretary of state, and said he should continue to ;rem for the Pops's interposition in the matter. It might be said this was mere conversation but, in the face of • law which was presumed to prohibit diplo matic intercourse, here was an official instruction from the foreign secretary to Lord Mink to undertake • certain nego tiation; and a regular official report from that noble lord as to the result of his representations. This correspondence had been officially laid on the tables of both hours; and it this intercourse were not penal under existing acts, be was at • loss to know what kind of diplomatic intercourse could be so. (Hear, hear.) It could not be said that this intercourse was private and confidential for the government bad themselves furnished official copies thereof. Hence, as it was net to be presumed that the noble marquis and his colleagues had knowingly incur red the penalties of pronsimire, what became of the argu ment in favour of the necessity of this measure as a means of facilitating diplomatic intercourse with the court of Rome t (Hear.) The noble marquis had cited an instance of direct intercourse with that court ; but this had taken place at a time when all Europe was involved in war, and under the pressure of the strongest necessity. He did not deny that there might be conveniences and advantages attending • diplomatic intercourse with the wart of Rome ; but it should be well considered whether there might at be con nected therewith inconveniences and disadvantages of a still stronger character. (Hear.) As to the Pope's spiritual authority in this realm, no one supposed that the oath of ab , juration meant to deny that a very large class of our fellow subjects did consider themselves subject to the spiritual ad vise and authority of the Pontiff; what was implied was Ude, est the sodterity in question was not such u could be seppeneid by the laws of this country, but merely one famed in opinion. No one disputed the authority which a =6lllll IMS would possess over an Irish Roman Mbar. It was, therefore, idle to allege that this Mil wen nesessesy for the purpose of diplomatic intercourse, In Mr VII in which that necessity bad been repre ssed's& TM fact was, the Pope had authority Over OW Roman catholic fellow-subjects ; and the goverment were now seeking to establish rela tions with the Pope, in order to secure his authority being exercised in the least offensive manner. The government must admit that this was the real object of the bill. (Hear.) Then arose the question, did this measure unction and strengthen the papal authority ? If he believed it to have that effect, he should directly oppose it. He believed the present Pope to be a liberal and well-intentioned man • who Cher he was a farseeing and discreet man might be do;tlited, for he feared he bad entered on • course, politically speak ing, which was full of danger. However this might be, it was evident that no man who had recently occupied the papal chair had exercised his spiritual authority with so high • hand. (Hear, hear.) In the case of the Irish col the course pursued by Pius the Ninth was most ill and reprehensible. (lieu, hear.) Had this country diplomatic relations at that court, remoutranose might have been offered ; and if these remonstrances had been dis regarded, which was probable, would not that have led to more serious misunderstandings with the court of Rome than if no such relations had existed ? (Hear, hear.) Hence, he doubted whether the inconveniences that might result from this measure might not outweigh the probable advantages. Though he was far from thinking with the noble duke (Wel lington) that because the government had laid this bill on the table the house ought to give it a second reading, he was yet willing to allow it to proceed, reserving his right to give it full consideration afterwards ; and he hoped the government would allow a sufficent interval for this purpose, before the bill passed its remaining stages. The noble mar quis had expressed his readiness to adopt any amendment which might be thought necessary for giving greater security to the protestant church ; and he thanked the noble lord on the woolsack for the important provisoes which he had sug gested. He did not object to the bill because it recognised the temporal sovereignty of the Pope in his own dominions; this had already been fully recognised by this country. But he much doubted whether the recognition was reciprocal, as the noble marquis intimated ; for it was undeniable that claims had been put forward at different times by the papacy , wholly inconsistent with the temporal authority of the Queen of England in her dominion,. (Hear.) He doubted whe ther it was consistent with the dignity of a great country like this to enter into diplomatic relations with any power, with out a clear and express declaration on the part of that powet of the temporal authority at least of our *sunrise. (Hear, hear.) Unless such provision were introduced he should feel obliged to oppose the bill. _ln every other country, catholic as well as protestant, it had been found necessary to place their diplomatic relations with Rome on a more limited foot ing than those with any other country ; the reason being the extreme difficulty . of drawing the boundary line between the temporal and spiritual authority of the Pope. In the case of Prussia some special provisions of the kind he now suggested were made before entering into diplomatic inter course with Rome. With regard to our ambassador at Rome, the advantages and inconveniences might be nearly balanced; but if a papal envoy were admitted here, espe cially if allowed to combine spiritual with temporal autho rity, the probable inconveniences would be very serious; and the people of this country would require very strong so ciality against the abuse of such power. This power ought especially to be guarded with reference to the admission of bulb" and rescripts. As they were about to introduce a papal envoy into this country, precautions not necessary in Ro man catholic countries ought to betaken to prevent bulls and rescripts being admitted or permitted to come in which bad not obtained the previous sanction of the government. These were the points to which it was right the attention of their lordships should be directed. Some of these points were calculated to satisfy the apprehensions of the public, and it was on these grounds that, though be was not prepared to join with the noble duke who had moved the amendment in negativing the second reading of this:thin and which mmendinent he hoped would not be premed to a division, still he wished to see how far the objection to the measure might be removed in committee ; but he should reserve to himself the entire right to take any course which he might think expedient on the third reading of the bill. He would not now pledge himself to the final adoption of the measure, but he hoped that, on a matter of so much importance, worthy, he would not say the prejudices, but the religious feeling of the people, ample time would be given for the consideration of the bill as it would stand after the introduction of those amendments which their lordships in their wisdom might think fit to adopt. (Hear hear.) Earl GREY' expressed the great utisfaction he felt that the noble lord who had just sat down, and who had carefully scrutinised this measure to discover every possible defect, found no greater fault with it than the manner in which it had been introduced. The noble lord said that a measure of such vast importance, involving considerations of serious political consequences, ought not to have been brought in without in the first instance having been announced to par liament by her Majesty in the speech from the throne, or, at all events, by a formal massage sent by the crown to heti branches of the legislature. This objection was unworthy of the noble lord, for it was new to him (Earl Grey) that such a course was necessary; and if no more serious fault could be found, he was content to leave it without any answer. With respect to th e introduction of the bill, it had been laid upon the table by his noble friend the President of the Council in a manner strictly in accordance with the practice of the house, and his noble friend had, as usual reserved any explanation or discussion of the unsure until he moved the second reading, and to-night he had not failed to lay the case fully and completely before their lordships. The cue his noble friend had made out must have marled conviction to the mind of almost every individual S t a n had heard him. But then the noble lord opposite (Lordl ay wel l found fault with the short interval which had been to elapse between the introduction of the bill and its second reading. He (Earl Grey) owned that he was askehk ad that this objection should have been raised by the 'whisked because he himself had suggested that if a nuanable interval of 'given before the second reading, there would be no sort of olojection to proceeding with the bill in committee on the following day. The government had no wish to hurry the boll to • discussion, and had allowed a fair interval to elapse, but not to al so distant a day for the second reading that thi ••• ties to the Pope for assentimg M soma positions of a l l clerical nature which he had Mb tO •01114 of oa r colonies. Other cases might be ettod of a simile" eke -1 rector, and necessity forcing _he way at all name thsaugh every prejudice, the prudes Sad Ismanse, Knot the law, the custom of this country. (Hear, hear.) He had many re cord; from the Poroien-ofitu to , pewee ft. In the time of Lord Grenville application was made to the Pope to allow us to navigate a certain part of the Mediterranean ; at another time an appeal had been made to him to allow our troops to pass through his territory, and on both occasions this country thanked him for the wens which he pur. sued. Was this, then, the find time we had recog nised the Pope? (Hear, hear.) Why, what became of the treaty of Vienna, by which certain possessions were secured to the Pope and others granted to him, Great Bri tain being a party to that ;treaty ? And who put the great seal to it ? Why Lord Chancellor Eldon, who was, per haps, more adverse to the spiritual ucendancy of the Pope than any man of his day. (Hear, hear.) A short time after that treaty, when his late Majesty George IV. succeeded to the throne of thew realms, the Pope of that day addressed to him a congratulatory le tter on his accession, and, through $ circuitous diplomatic chime, it reached the King, who, with the feelings of a sovereign and a gentleman, imme diately replied to it. It was, however, told him afterward. that it was doubtful whether be had not forfeited his crown and subjected himself to penalties by such an ace of courtesy. A messenger was at once despatched to Italy to endeavour to atop the letter, but it was too late. (Lauehter.) He said, then, that we had repeatedly acknowledged the Pope, who had also recognised the sovereign of this country ; and if this *prim of intercourse was to continue, why should it not be dons in broad daylight, and by the only means which cou ld afford security foe the pro per conduct of such negotiations ? (Hear, beer.) He be lieved, therefore, the time had come for making the law explicit on the subject. (Hear, hear.) He could not think, because 180 years ago a popish sovereign was engaged in • guilty mission to the Court of Rome, which signary failed, that, after the lapse of nearly a century and • half, and when diplomatic intercourse wee of twofold importance to the welfare of the state, he could not thick their lordships would say that her Majesty should be debarred from esta blishing relations from which no evil, but, on the contrary, great benefit would arise. (Hear, bear.) He would be the last person to ask their lordships to countenance anything that would give the Pope spiritual power in this opn7. , and if any noble lord doubted it, there were no words width would :provide against such an evil that he would object to see introduced Into the bill. (Hear, hear.) It applied to diplomatic relations einly, which would surely be most beneficial daring peace, and oleo he believed in time of war; in fact, upon every consideration, it was desirable that the Court of Rome should be incorporated with the general system of diplomatic intercourse which misted with regard to all other countries—(hear, bear) — and he had much pleasure, therefore, in moving the second reading of the bill. (Hear, hear.) The Duke of NEWCASTLE opposed the bill, but spoke in so low a tone as to be inaudible in the gallery. He moved that the bill be read that day six months. The Bishop of WINCHESTER admitted the great im portance of the present measure. Thu penult* ground en which the noble marquis rested his defea- co Mit was the In convenience which atom front being obliged, is the unser- Minty of the law as it stood at present, to have recourse to indirect communications with the court of Rome. But whenever is was necessary to hold communications with that court on secular matters, some mode—although it might not be the most desirable one—always itself of effecting that object. (Hear, bear.) lt sea met i marquis, however, forgot that there might be inconveniences the other way. (Hear, hear.) These inoonveniences might be conceived to be of such a character as would determine their lordship not to allow any direct communications with the court of Rome. The of the bill showed how easy it was to elide into and M enge ' one's self with the langtutge of popery ; for the language of the bill was, that • minister from this was to be accredited to " the Sovereign Pontiff." (Hear country , hear.) This was the first time that the Bishop of Rome was so designated in an act of par liament. In other acts he was called " the Bishop of Rome," or the "Pope of Rome." (Hear, hear.) He bogged to disclaim any intention of appearing disrespectful to the Roman catholic members of their lordships' house. If they ' passed this measure , he thought they must go a step further and must repeal the 13th Will. 111., G. 6. That act referred to the Bill of Rights and the Act of Settle ment, "on which," the words of the statute said, " the safety of your Majesty's royal person and government, the existence of the monarchy, the continuance of the Church of England, and the future peace and tranquillity of the kingdom, entirely depend." He begged of their lordships to pause before they disturbed en act on which such im portant considerations depended. He begged leave to sup port the amendment. (Hear, hear.) The Bishop of ST. DAVID'S said it was evident, from the noble marquis's statement, that the law, as it stood at present, was by no means co clear that a viola t ion of the Bill of Rights would be committed if her Majesty were advised to send an ambassador to Rome. With respect to the political necessity of 'the measure, he be lieved there could be no doubt. That necessity had existed in former times, and they were now only asked to legalise what had been the established practise of all governments from the Revolution to the present time. It was doubtful whether the measure introduced any innova tion in law ; it was quite clear it introduced no substantial innovation in practice, and the kind of innovation which it introdaced was that it made those communications plain, open, and honourable, which heretofore were neither plain, open, nor honourable. The right rev. prelate, baying paid a tribute of praise to the eminent qualities of the present pope, went on to argue that there was nothing in the religious as pect.of the bill which should prevent their lordships from passing it. He did not pay much regard to the argument derived front the mode of describing the Bishop of Rome in the bill as " the sovereign pontiff." That was • familiar and common mode of describing him, and even pro testant ecclesiastical writers constantly and regu larly styled him " the pontiff," or " the sove reign pontiff." However, he supposed the government would alter those words without hesitation. (Hear hear.) With respect te that part of the measure which related to the accrediting of a minister from Rome here, it might be right to introduce a modifying clause, r equiring . that the person accredited should not be an ecclesiastic, or possessed of an ecclesiastical character. That was a concess ion which he thought fairly due to the feelings of the people of this country. As a whole, he looked on the measure as one required by the circumstances of the times; it was essential to the political interests of the country—it was one attended with no shadow of danger to the established religion, and therefore he hoped and Waned that no doubt as to the question of law would prevent their lordships from assenting to it in substance. (Hear, bear.) The Bishop of EXETER emphatically denied that the words " sovereign pontiff" were habitually used by protestant writers in reference to the Bishop of Rome. The alumnus pontifex was, according to the canon law, the head of the church ; be was above all patriarchs, metropolitans, and bishop. But he denied that the Bishop of Rome was the sovereign pontiff. He reclaimed against the principle laid down by the right rev. prelate, and which he believed had for the first time been announced bya protestant prelate in a British senate. (Hear, hear.) There were so many blots in the present measure that he thought it should not be al. lowed to be sent before a committee. The plain and safe course which might be adopted by the government was, to call the judges together and take their opinion on the state of the law. But, instead of that, they brought in a bill, and asked for the decision of the legislature, which he thought an unwise course. He was strongly op posed to that part of the bill which referred to the arm-dicing of an ambassador from the court of Rome. Other protestant countries sect envoys to Rome, and they arranged their diplomatic business there. Prussia adopted that course, but Prussia did not receive an envoy from Rome. Was London alone to have the high distino tion of being blessed with a nuncio? Was Rome to , raise her scarlet head again at St. James's ? Was that the course of policy which the noble marquis advised the house to adopt? The time might come when the utmost danger would arise from having an accredited minister of Rome in London. His person, by the law of nations, was sacred, and plots the most =whim= and dangerous to the peace and safety of the realm might be batched under hie auspices. They heard a great deal of additional national defences, and a very great addition to their national defences would be re quired lithe policy now proposed were adopted. In Ireland thejority of the people were ready to join any foreign power who would oppose this country. He looked upon the present policy, there fore as nothing short of treason against the protestant crown and the protestant church, and would strenuously oppose it. (Hear, hear.) The Duke of WELLINGTON said that her Majesty's government desired, in the circumstances of Italy, to in crease and facilitate the means of communication with the Boman states, and they called on that house to give a second reeding to the bill. He confessed when he first heard of the measure he considered of it with some degree of 'misty, for he had upon all occasions in which he had to make pro positioas to their lordship in relation to the Roman catholic of this country considered it his duty to take the utmost eare not to touch on any of the provisions of thaw laws upon which the reformation in this country and the es tablished church depended. It certainly was the intention of those laws that there should be no communication what ever, political or otherwise, between this country and the eovereign of the states of Rome, and these laws remained in operation at the present time. A great alteration was made, howe ve(Lok r by the law ur introduced by the noble and learned lord st), called the 9th and 10th Vic., c. 58. bigatch the penance incurred for violating them were mi- and in some cases entirely repealed. All the noble and learned lords who addressed the house on that occasion elated that the enactments of the law remained the sense, but that some of the acts prohibited remained misdemeanors at common law. Ho was satisfied with those USUIVICOS but he confessed he felt anxious about the effect of this measure on those particular laws. He therefore intended to give notice of a proviso enguring the supre macy of the crown in all matters spiritual and temporal, and that this should be always wandered inviolable. He oonaidered that such • proviso would be satisfactory to the sentry—(hen, hear)—and extremely nodal in any measures that might have been adopted under the law as it stood, (lieu, hear.) He conceived that the gover.n ment, being desirous to bare clear and accurate in thrmation as to events in Italy, and knowing the convenience and advantage to be derived from a regular diplomatic com munication with the Roman states, had broptht forward this measure with a view to remove the obstacles which the adding laws might (resent to such a regular diplomatic Communication, it being desirable that that communication should be carried on in a regular and official form. (Hey, hear.) If no other advantage were derived from it, there would be that of being 'Pertain that true intelligence was re ceived from a responsible agent ; and that alone was big desirable in a country where her Majesty's sub tle* had not sush privileges as th have in some others. Vadat those circumstances he reco mmended their lordships THE EXPRESS FRIDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 18, 1848. country might be lashed into • sort of artificial agitation. After finding these petty faults, and dealing in this minute sort of criticism, the noble lord had proceeded to make some comments which, so far from being arguments against the bill, were in fact strong arguments in its favour. He bad sated Lord Mina's despatches, and argued from them that assay there was clearly a diplomatic intercourse between Isms sad this country, a nd that if the palatine of promo ...to bmi scion, d 7 bail been incurred by her Majesty's Ear 3 = mehmen e t bad o irver p r etended on his own pleasure. On the contrary, he was there for an v e nt ed üblic object, but the e x isting state of affairs pr hiss having formal letters to the Pope. He had no proper authority to act as the representative of the British crown at the court of Rome, but at the same time it bad never been concealed that be bad taken an active part is the affairs of that country. This WY the very ease the government brought forward is favour of this bill, as showing the necessity which had existed and still did exist, for intercourse of • diplomatic nature between the two countries. The manner in which that intercourse had hitherto been carried on, had been most unsatisfactory. It was of frequent occurrence that the government had to communicate with the court of Rome in reference to the ealosiastical affairs in many of the colonies where the Roman catholic religion prevailed, and hence it was of importance this country should have a recognised representative at Rome. Undoubtedly it would not have been rigot to have sent Lord Mintoto Rome if the govemmenthad not contemplated the very step which it had now taken in asking parliament to put the intercourse upon a proper footing. The noble lord opposite had said that no protestant state marred as an envoy from Rome any sale siasti;, sod he had instanced the case of Prussia. This restriction, however, did not rest upon the law of Prussia, bat simply on the pleasure of the King and his government. and on that pleasure they had declined to receive an each siastic as ambassador. In the same way, if this bill paid, it would be open to the government of this country , . he that government whom it might, to decline to receive any ambassador if they thought any inconvenience or danger would arise from has presence here, and therefore it appeared to him (Earl Grey) to be unnecessary that the bill should contain any . such clause of restriction as that of which notice had been given. It would be difficult to frame a clause to define who would be a safe ambassador to be admitted from the court of Rome, and therefore it was better that the responsibility should be left upon the government far the time bias. The clause of which the noble duke at the table (the Duke of Wellington) had given notice would be a decided improvement in the bill; for though he (Earl Grey) thought the bill was perfectly safe as it stood, this clause would make assurance double sure," and teed to allay unnecessary fears which prevailed out the walls of pirlianient. lienee the government gave their adhesion to that clause. There was no other point to which he (East Grey) felt it necessary at present to advert, except as to what had fallen from • right reverend prelate early in the debate, who appeared to hint to admit the policy, expe diency, and legality (under the existing laws) of diplomatic intercourse with the court of Rome ; for the objection of the right reverend prelate simply was, that the bill was oast ; and he desired that the opinion of the In sh ee rnal s 7 be taken as to the law as it actually stood this Now, according to the forms of the house , if t his =ad . not be en before it, it was sot compeernt to consult the judges on • question of the kind, for they could only be consulted on questions of law arising on the proceedings of the house in its legislative or judicial character. As to the fears of the right rev. prelate, he would my that all the bill was intended to accomplish was to plate the law clearly and undoubtedly on the footing on which the right rev. prelate stated it now rested, and to make it lawful for her Majesty to appoint an ambesesdor to the court of Rome, should she so think tit, on the advice of her responsible ministers. (Hear, hear.) The Duke of RICHMOND said he was prepared to vote against the second reading of this bill, for in; his opinion there never had bees time lees fitting than the present to make say farther concession to the Roman eatholics. This measure would be considered a concession by the Roman catholic. of Ireland, who, with their priests, had already taught this country the lesson, that the more that was given, the more they demanded; the greater the concession, the more uageMful they were for what was done for them. The Earl of ELDON said as yet he had not heard a single valid reason why this bill even as amended in the manner proposed should pass into • law. The Earl of St. GERMANS sail he should give his cor dial support to this messure—(hest, hear)—and confessed he did not participate in the apprehenaions suggested with respect to the admission of an ecclesiastic as ambassador to this country from the court of Rome. He thought, as this in volved matters of ecclesiastical polity, it was desirable to have here the presence and assistants of an ecclesiastic as envoy. If such an individual was found to be obnoxious or inoonve nient, the government bad the power to rend him back. The noble earl, who was most indistinctly heard, was understood to express his approbation of the clause suggested by the noble duke (the Duke of Wellington), and, with this addi tion, he should cordially support the hill, which he hoped would not be impaired by any further alteration. (Hear.) Lord REDESDALE gave notice, that in committee he should move the insertion of a clause to the effect that it should not be lawful for the crown to appoint an ambassador to the court of Rome until the Pops disavowed all temporal and civil jurisdiction, either directly or indirectly, within the realm. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, in reply, denied that the measure was intended as • concession to the Roman catho lice. It was proposed as • conotasion to expediency, and state necessity. With respect to the mission of Lord idiom, there wan* act dons—no instruction sent out—that he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) was not prepared to defend, and to show that it had been for the best interests of this country that this had been done. The success of Lord Minto's mission was the best, the strongest, and the most unanswerable illustration of the necessity for this bill. That mission had saved Europe the horrors of a dreadful civil war in Switzerland. (Hear, hear If their lordship. would now consent to the secon reading of the bill, he should fix to-morrow (this day) for the committee. - The Duke of NEWCASTLE withdrew his amendment; the bill was read • second time, and ordered to be com mitted to-morrow (this day). Their lordships adjourned at 25 minutes to tea o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—TnuRaDAY, FED. 17. The SPEAKER took the chair at 4 o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINEB& SECOND READlNO.—lrisester Navigation (Sale of Leeds on Pored Line), But. GREAT HARLOW ELECTION PETITION. Sir J. PAKINOTON reported from the committee upon the petition against the return for the borough of Great Marlow, that lhomes Peeres Williams, Esq., and Lieut.-CoL Brewnlow Knox were duly elected. LEAVE OF ABSENCE. On the motion of Mr. Turt(ELL, leave of absence was granted to Lord Albert Coombs= for two months, on ac- count of urgent private business. On the motion of Mr. S. CRAITTOILD, absence was granted to Mr. Tennent for a fort night, on the same ground. ISLE OF MAN. Dr. BOWRING postponed until this day fortnight his mo tion on the grievances of the inhabitants of the Isle of Mao. SITTINGS OF COMMITTEES ON WEDNESDAYS. Mr. B. COCHRANE asked if it was not the duty of the officers of the house to give notice to the several committees that the house was sitting ? Mr. F. MAULE said it was perfectly well known to all members that the house sat every Wednesday at 12 o'clock, and it was in the power of any member of a committee to move an adjournment of the same, in order that members might attend the house. NATIONAL LAND COMPANY. Mr. BRIGHT said that the other evening the hon. mem ber for Nottingham had postponed his motion respecting the National Land Conny, because the Attorney-General had suggested certain diftulties respecting it which required °Nisi devotion. Would the Attorney-General inform the house whether these difficulties were of a legal character, as there were very many persons interested in the subject ? ( Th e ATTORNEY-GENERAL had made it his busi ness to ascertain the nature of the scheme in ques tion. He would not, on the present occasion, my whether or no it was such a scheme as, if applied to officially, he could certify the legality of. He would only observe, that the parties connected with it bad not hitherto thought proper to submit it to that test. Mr. F. O'CONNOR said, that the hon. and learned ipir amain, he believed, was mistaken in that point, fee the scheme had, he believed, been submitted to him, and he re fused to certify. NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT. In answer to Mr. 0. TRORPsON, Sir R. INGLIS said, that he proposed to bring forward his motion respecting the new house of parliament, on Thursday, 2nd Mara _ NOV - A SCOTIA. Mr. HUME said that a general elution having taken place in Nova Scotia, he wished to ask whether it was the intention of her Majesty's ministers that, in this colony, a responsible government abould be carried out in the terms of Lord J. Russell's letter, for the colonists were somewhat apprehensive of being _treated as the Canadians had been. Mr. LABOUCHBRE said that the best answer he could give would be a very brief statement of the facts which bad lately occurred in Nova Scotia. In August last the general election took place, the result being that what was called the liberal party, which before was the minority, became the majority. The new House of Assembly met on the 72n1 January. The first thing they did wee to pus a vote of want of confidence in the executive council, an expres sion of opinion which was then embodied in an address to the governor. Sir J. Harvey replied that no time should be lost in adopting the measure which should seem to him most expedient. Hereupon the executive council tendered their resignation, and, on the lit February, Sir J. Harvey wrote to the General Amiably, intimating the fact, and that he would forthwith apply himself to the new measures which circumstance , had thus rendered necessary. WEST INDIA ADVANCES. Mr. BARELY begged to ask the Chancellor of the Ex chequer whether the sum of 200,0001. proposed to be granted to certain of the Went India colonies, in aid of immigration, was to be applied to the liquidation of liabilities for Cooly immigration already incur red by her Majesty ' s government (but which those colonies are unable to discharge), or whether it was to be employed in procuring from the coast of Africa an effective addition to their labouring popula tion ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had already stated to the house that the two colonies of Guiana and Trinidad had by legislative acts, authorised their agents here to negotiate loans for the purpose of facilitating immi gration into those colonies, in consequence of which audio risation, immigration was put in coune of arrangement. The agents having failed to obtain the loans they sought, Ms sir aid, and lending them the of discount at three per cent. from August, 1846, to fearing that the Bank would not be able to meet every th ou/ lupe& reasonable terms, government had felt itself did cause them. The Bank continued to maintain the rate them he did not think there existed the slightest gr oun d kir oug e m. 0.. very coasidenbly in the meantime. In January, war taking place very slowly, yet that trade and comm sm - ''' them - to raise. January, 1847. The stock of bullion fluctuated Me demand. He need hardly say that dth h the - iger, an action upon the gold took place and were revinng, and that there was no possibility of s es li -.. been already expended. tilte l a d e r y . BwAinhßiciaLthinlr- But of the money has nitessiety E xc h equer ) even temporan e ii . s ng i: t : Precautionary measures, and raised the hon. gentleman had been quite right in anticipati ng o, f m etto - The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER-No doubt the stock of bullion fee from 16,000,0001. to 13,947,0001. The demand as the Bank would not he able to meet. Tk e r i gh t the government advanced the money in anticipation of the Bank again adopted _p wo ul d argue that there em loan. per cent. certainly mould do so. On the 18th • ' THE BANK ACT. ta ra i t ed of th dis e ;oaulunet of money f m our oce lr u ce nt n n t. :h a e t s w w h a ialt .i pr b i u ct on it n (th ot e th E e "n sli e g en ht e es e t e December, istmaite mien of the Bank Act, but the right hon. gentle- Now, be must contend that the facts stated-oaniely, that ately preceding the separation of parliament, the Beak to . Mr. BERRIES then nee to bring forward his motion on 9,887,00 01 0 when the discounts were raised to fi ve the suspe the rise and fall of the Bank rate of discount, accordine to serve amounted to 8,5W,0001. He should then have . man was lo extremely indistinct in his delivery, that • very of considerable portion of hie address reached us in too ineom- the stock of bullion in its coffees, would suce to provethat a motion_ for _ suspensioe,_and much mere so now, whe n i t plate a form to enable us to report it. The proposition the Bank of England was most careful in its traneactions, amounted to 9,686,0001. If parliament did not think it fit% he was about to make comprehended two motions, which and watched sethdously ever the money market : It had been entrust some power to the government, then the rig m e , might indeed be separately nested . , but wh feat gentleman m bit move a condemnatory resolution, --- it more advantageous, in every point of view, to take in con- of securing the convertibility of the . in circulation. (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not think ' butt, paperi drt the I' h t i for junction. They both referred to the events wi11.% occurred Now, he must deny that proposo on, an ease on seg tea peace' ty even temporary ausimii i on. Bat last year , and which arose out of the Bank Act of 1844 ; the contrary that the act had done nothing tow the right hon. gentleman had cated something mom vent s of the moot calemitous character, which excited more accomplishing any such remit. Before the act messed than temporary suspension. He proposed to impend uo m slam, more distress, more misery, than any commercial he had shown the Bank to have had the miser- parliament should otherwise determine. Why, t h at ' ~,m ti crisis within living memory ; or, he might say, within his- tune to have 16,000,0001. in bullion stored in its cellars ; amount to a virtual repeal of the act. (Hear, hear.) If ti n Cory, (Hear, hear.) The commercial failures which cm and, since the events to which he had referred, more than ect warto be repealed until parliament provided otherwise media the latter end of 1847, were in point both of number half of that amount had been withdrawn. What was there i t wou ld be in point of fact a repeal of the act. He melt and of magnitude beyond all precedent in this country. to prove that the act of 1844 had acted beneficially in re- not imagine any course of proceeding more mi ni m a ,' (Hem, hear.) A document of high authority enumerated ammo the financial interests of the community ? (The to stultify the house. To move for the repeal of as act no fewer than 220 failures, select from a host of minor right hon, gentleman here o f ecame totally unintelligible, wbenge committee had just been appointed to in qe m cataatrophos, 85 of which alone represented property to the partly ening to his practice turning round to the benches whether it could be amended or altered, would, in les extent of 12,000,0001., the aggregate looses of t,he 220 houses behind him, mod partly to his dropping his voice at opinion, be an act of stultification. It would realise the ski amounting to no less than 30,000,0001. (Hear, hear.) Such each period of his speech.) He felt alma ( overwhelmed saying, " Hang feral and try after." (Hear, hear.) m em a Mate of things as this ought not to be palled over without at the contemplation of the opinions which he had to en- gentlemen were of opinion that alteration might be i n n‘ the most anxious solicitude, at least oa the part of those who counter on the other side of the question. But it was one duced with advantage. Various courses had been suggated r bad the charge of public affairs, to ascertain what had been which ought to be submitted to parliament, and be had felt but it was not true that government had received n umerots the mum of such calamities, and what remedies could best it to be his duty to bring it under the notice of the house. deputations with suggestions. They had received only ten be applied to prevent their recurrence. (Hear, hem.) The Supposing that the Bank had been free to act under the old deputations, one from Liverpool and one from Birmin g km. motion he was about to submit to the house sufficiently system, what would have been the course of events during But various suggestions had been made, and surely mum explained what, in his humble opinion, the causes of these the late crisis? The Bank-looking at the causes of men should a gr e e in what they proposed to substitute before diameters had been. The second resolution, to which he the drain of bullion during the year 1847-looking they repealed the act. He remembered that the hon. would first advert, expressed his judgment that the govern- also at its means, at the amount of geld in its coffers, bee for Birmingham had conceded that the act of 1844 we ; meet, In suspending the act of 1844, had taken • judicious which was fully equal to meet all the demands likely to be the complement of that of 1819, and that to era no. step, • judgment corroborated by the fact that the Tenth had made upon it ; looking also at the exchanges during the mantis' good both acts must be dealt with. A commit. been to stay the evil. At the very commencement of the mouths of January and April, 1847, and finding them fa- tee had been appointed affording various shades of opinioe, anion, her Majesty had informed them that her ministers vounble-would have been able to take measures to avert and he hoped that much valuable information would be had found it necemary to authorise the violation of a recent the crisis that occurred during that period. And during obtained. If the right hon. gentleman succeeded is kis i• statute of • most stringent character, the vital principle of the second period, foom April to November, 1847, if there resolution he would of course follow it up by rescinding te s which was the very feature against which the government were no alarm excited from demands for internal purposes- committee, because after the repeal of the act the labours of measure was directed. Up to the present period, however, for in that case gold would have been sent into the country that committee would be all labour thrown away. (li m o the only notice taken of this most important communication to meet them-the Bank might with safety have ventured The right hon. gentleman; had said ia a former debate had been the formal acknowledgment of its receipt, no step its own coedit in alleviating the general depression of com- that it would be essential to know the whole state if the Bak whatever having been taken by the house to express melee. (The right hoe. gentleman still continued in- of England, and had asked for correspondence which** an opinion on the subject. (Hear. hear.) It was audible.) He did not believe the government contemplated not be given to him simply because it was not in existent, said, indeed, that this v' lion in question was not an the maintenance of the act in its present state. It had, He quite agreed with the right hon gentleman, that sack act which rendered it necessary for the government to apply however, been thought, more probably, that the tedious and information should be before the house, and the committee for • bill of indemnity : it might be so-though he had circuitale proem of an ingairy, before a committee was re- was likely to obtain it for them. The governor and deputy doubts on the point-and so far the second resolution he quintet in order to enable =misters to assent to a mo- governor of the Bank of England were to be examined, sea, held in his hand showed his opinion that government was dification of the measure. He ho ped the house would no doubt they would give a full and complete amount dem justified in the course it had taken. But he was also of in the meantime consent to his motion. The country was conduct of the Bank of England. He confessed that he opinion that the conduct of government on the subject, in in a position of great danger as regarded its commerce and looked forward with great interest to their evidence ; b e t relation to parliament, had been marked be an extreme beano's. There was a possibility of the recurrence of that if they were first to repeal the act, of what we getii og want of franknea and Mraighttorwardnem. (Hear, hear.) calamity which had already taken place. The act of 1844 all this important information? The right hon. Fentl eam There bad been a manifest purpose on the part of ministers was now operating as a drag upon the springs of commerce. had expressed his wish to avoid a general discussion en the to shun discussion of the metier by the home. (Hear. There was no reason to doubt that the commercial and currency. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) entirely hear.) The eery first government step of the session lad manufacturing activity of the country would rise to the same agreed with him, seeing the serious delay that ouch a discus. been a kind of rush, on the part of the Chancellor of the height as formerly, if the impediment to their free action non must create to the business of the country. They bee Exchequer, to get a committee, the clear object of which was removed. He believed that the representatives of the now arrived at a period of the session when the public boa. wee to supersede • discussion of the question. (Hear, hear.) manufacturing towns of Scotland were able to confirm the ness must be necessarily gone into. To-morrow (this) night That committee's instructions did not at all touch the point opinions he had expressed, for in that country great depres- his noble friend the first Lord of the Treasury would make which he now purposed to bring under the attention of the l oon had resulted from the recent monetary en*. He did his financial statement; and then would come the estimates, house, or call upon them to report as to the conduct of not think the arbitrary regulations respecting bullion had which it was not to be expected would pass as quietly se government in the matter. The committee, in • word, was tended to increase the amount of gold in the country. It they had done in formes years. Under these circumstances • clear case of evasion. He therefore deemed it his duty, ee was mach to be deplored that owing to the Bank acts of he approved of the right hon. gentleman's discretion, and a member of the house, to call upon the house to Pronounce 1844 and 1845, the Scotch and Irish banks were compelled to earnestly hoped that the house was not about to plunge into their judgment upon the conduct of the government in sum have from 2,000,0001. to 3,000,0001. ofgold in theirceffen which the interminable ocean of a currency debate. (Hear, beam pending the act of 1844. Before he could expect the house might with more advantage be added to the bullion in the There were, however, one or two points in the nett to adopt his first resolution, he must pees to the ascend nem Bank of England.. All he asked for was that the government hon. gentleman's speech which he must refer to, far lotion, for on his power te satisfy the house that this second would consent to repeal so much of the act as restricted the the purpose of correcting misapprehension. The right hos. tesolutioninla•jillit one, depended in greatmeasure the fitness issue of bank paper, in relation to the amount of bullion in gentleman had mid that the promoters of the act blamed the of the find for their adoption •. if the act of 1844 had the coffers of that establishment. The remedy he salted for Bank for reducing the rate of disco to 21 per cent, in not been productive of there d ifficulties, and emblems- was only ad interim, and until the legislature should have 1844. He did not know who were the promoters to whoa meta, and dangers, which lie attributed to its operation-if bad time fully and carefully to examine into the working of the right hon. gentleman referred, but he did not remember it had not been the main cause of our late commercial die- the act of 11344, and to devise some new measure. It might be that the actual promoters had blamed the Bank. The ban. masa, then the conduct of the government in suspending it necessary for him to observe, with reference to the first part member for Paisley had blamed the Bent ; but he was m was not justifiable. He believed, however, he could show of his motion, that many persons had expressed an nate- opponent of the WU. that the 00¢190 erea: not only justifiable, but so absolutely m- vourable opinion respeetieg the conduct of the government Mr. HASTIE.-I merely said they had done so. amid, that, had it not been adopted, within another week in regard to the Bank during the month of October last. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.-Many the trade and commerce of London would have been utterly It had been said that the ministers ought to have taken the gentlemen held that the Bank should, under all rimer prostrated. (Hear, hair.) What was the position of the step which they then adopted sooner, if they wished to avert stances, charge • uniform rate of discount ; but the blame Bank at that period ? Why its p os ition was this,-that it the mischief that had happened. He (Mr. licence) was of should be put on the right shoulders. lie (the Chancel* could not have met a sudden demand for but 1,500,0001. in opinion that bad the act been set aside at an earlier period of the Exchequer) had been one of the promoters of the IRA gold upon the cashier's department. The alarm upon this than in October much of the distress and ruin that hid but he had never blamed the conduct of the Bank. On the state of things, made known to the whole community by the occurred would have been avoided. But putting himself contrary, he believed it was the supporters of the right hoe. weekly returns, at once prostrated all credit and all con& in the position of the government, and looking at the enor- gentleman who had cast censure on the Bank. The right dence, every man locking up in his own coffers what he moos responsibility resting upon them from doing what hon. gentleman had also accused him of saying that the had ; and it therefore became essential for the government might be deemed an uneogistitetional act, which was only to country Irish and Scotch banks should increase their circa te take the step it had adopted. It was said that this Mate be ranted to in the last extremity, he was of opinion that lation three or four millions. He had said no such thing. la of things war not occasioned by the bill of 1844, but was the ministers ought to be held entirely blameless on the England, the country had not increased their cineuL• owing to the mismanagement and improvidence of the Bank ground of censure alleged. (Hear hem.) Another obeer- one single pound ; and in Ireland the wants of the country directors. He, on the oonnary, regarded the whole of the Nation he would make-namely, th at if any person expected were one million under the authorised circulation. la evil as inhere nt in that set, whieb, on two occasions within that the committee sitting en the monetary question would Scotland there had been an excess of half a million ; but the WIZ" year, had produced exactly the same difficulties. do anything to relieve the country from the calamities what was the increase of circulation from the three coon- He was convinced that no management, no skill on the part which Impended he war quite mistaken. It might also be tries ? The right hon. gentleman had also noticed a differ of the Bank directors, could, in times of difficulty suet as urged against his motion that as the parliament was sitting ence of opinion between him (the Chancellor of the Bloke those in question, avert the evils which the act of 1844 was and the government had already mmle one step towards re- quer) as to the diminution of the circulation at a certain fraught with. (Hear, hear.) Th e r i g ht h on . gentleman lieving the house from the discussion of the money question, period ; but there was no real difference, as his right hon. I then adverted to the circumstances attending the drain of it would be unnecessary to agree in his proposal. But he friend had alluded to different periods of the year. lie gold from this country in the early part of 1847, to purchase could not consider these objections to possess any weight in thought that the right hon. gentleman had made out no case corn and repeated his conviction that the course then compareeen with the urgent reasons he had advanced. He for his resolutions , that their effect would he to prejudge adopted by the directors to check the drain, however they begged therefore to move : the question, and therefore he must oppose the motion might have weighed with most serious effect on the comae- Tent, looking teem state of Matron which has for sometime pre- before the house. dal community, were forced upon them by the act of 1844, vaned amaze On coonnere_tet elesseaehn to the _re . en d h f a rehi te2 Alderman THOMPSON, who supported the resolutions, and were in no way the result of their prior mismanagement. distruet_._ a andthin n th r o "mm t , , - th c rxz. — r u . .1,1,,,, ha ve said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer opposed them on The whole fault lay in the machinery which they had to :te e ll:,',7,7,e i t . ',licit*, the mom . o r pert i emeut . In reeematem m at to three grounds-the present position of the Bank of Eng work, ard t o would continue to produce the same write th e leak o f for the purpose of restoring confidence, a land as being so improved as to preclude the potability of from time to time, until it was superseded. (lieu, hear.) course of at variance with the redriettena imposed by the danger; the fact of the parliament being sitting; and, The author of the 'cheme had decisively announced it as a Act 7 ands Vic., e. 32. That this bowie will realm Itself boos von. thirdly, the committee having been appointed. As to the measure which would render the contraction of the note cir- mittee of the whole house nem theend act-tegolutiun to be moved ~., first-the improved position of the Bank of England-he ,elation identical, both in time and amount, with the 1,, , c-Tfiza i nit,,,i° e ,...„ t t ed t L ent thm Beak o i rpl i f ig li t t r u s t r i f e c t t 'fi entirely concurred with the right bon. gentlemen. (Hear, diminution of bullion in the cheat, an alum aita t e vie., o. 48 in k 37. 1. ° 4r et t oit t e t h e Irmo of „„ io m om, on hear.) But was the state of Italy and France such uto pre tion which, _in common with all the other assunim & ma im , be suspended , subject to such conditions en may be provided elude the probability of a drain on its resources? ( Hear, lions on which the particular assumption was founded, by my a n to be paged for that pupae. hear.) As to the mond, the conduct of the late parliament experience had shown to be utterly fallacious. (Hear.) Mr. A. HASTIE felt no ordinary satisfaction in seconding with reference to the merchants' petition, did not give him A difference in opinion existed between the Chancellor of the motion of the right hon. gentleman, for he had never be- much confidence in the present. Then as to the committee, the Exchequer and the hon. member for Portsmouth upon fore heard the subject so ably and dearly treated as had been he should only say that they had been appointed on the 4th that point. It was certainly true that the circulation of done by that right hon. member. (Hear.) It was clear to February; it was now the 17th, and theytad only examined bank notes within the period taken had not corresponded to him that it the Bank Acts of 1844-5 were continued t w o witnesses, (Hear, hear.) He feared that if such te tte amount of bullion in the Bank coffers, and the right Ikon. in their present force, the moment any such disturbing ot h er pressure was to come on the country as that of last the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated, with reference causes as those that had Lamle arisen, again presented y ea r, its consequences would be ruinous. The Right lion. to the distrees and disorder th at had prevailed, that if the themselves-for instance a short inevest-a anis ri mihn to the Chancellor of the Excbequer had said that much of the house looked at the returns there would be found to hare that of October would again arise, and the government pressure had resulted from the failure of certain billbrokers existed very little variation, but that the bullion returns would be again cempelled to violate the law. upon whom merchants had been in the habit of depending daring the year 1847 were rather in advance of those of the The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that for discounts ; but, in October last, the alarm was so UM circulation. The hon. member for Portsmouth, on the con• the right hon. member for Stamford had in the outset of his venal that the panic had extended to the banks, and, in Mary, said that in the same period of time the bullion in the observations truly stated, that although he thought it more point of fact, there was no house, however high its station, Bpi had suffered a diminution of 8,000,0001. or 9,000,000 e, convenient to blend the matter of his two resolutions into whose credit was not labouring under some degree of sumi whilst there hacebeeOlone whatever in thgeeirculation. What one speech, yet that they were totally distinct in their cion. And this was not all-the difficulty of procuring could be a better proof of the difficulty in which the Beak nature. Of the truth of that observation no one who had Bank notes was so great, that it was next to impos was placed, than the facts which were familiar to all who mad the resolutions could entertain the slightest doubt. Bible to negotiate a bill* any foreign country against ship ' had looked at the question ? The circulation of notes was One expressed approval of the steps which had been taken meats made. This he knew of his own knowledge. under the control of the Bank, and supposing it to have been by the government in October last, while the other pledged The whole country was in a state approaching to bank reduced in exact proportion to the decrease of bullion in the the house to the opinion that the acts of 1844 and 1845, mi n g , But for the interference of Mr. Grote, who deserved Bank coffers, in what situation, let him ask, would the should from henceforth be 'upended. The right hon. gentle- i mm ortal honour for it-(hear, hear)-wages could not country have been ? The theory upon which the Bank Act man complained that on a former occasion, discussion on have been paid in the coal districts around Newavele, and had been framed was, that for every million of notes in cir- this point had been evaded. He did not know what the considering the immense population employed in those this- cute** above the dead weight there must be a correspond- right hon. gentleman meant. He tthe Chancellor of the trims, it was very doubtful if but for that timely assistance ing million of gold lodged in the Bank cellars. Now the Exchequer) had certainly on the occasion alluded to, stated the public peace could have been preserved. Then with re- Bank at the period of which he was speaking had only at great length the views of the government on the whole geed to the town of Liverpool-the hon. member opposite 9,000,0001. in its coffers ; and what, let him ask, would question. For three nights the question was discussed, could beer testimony to the lamentable condition to which have been the consequence, if it had been possible twenty two gentlemen addressed the home, an d the debate that great commercial depot had been reduced. When the -which it fortunately was not-for the circulation died out because no more were anxious to speak• deputation from the north waited upon the Chancellor of the to have been reduced from 20,000,0001. to 9,000,0001. Now as to the resolution approving of the con- Exchequer in Sept. last, they were told that there was or, in other words, to have abstracted 11,000,0001. from the duct of the government, of course he was plenty of Bank notes to be had en good bills on really solvent circulating paper medium of the country ? That very eir- not going to my that they were wrong in what they had houses, and that the difficulty complained of had resulted cumstance showed the inherent and incurable error which done, His opinion was that the conduct they had pursued from undue speculation and miscalculation. The right hon. was embodied in the Bank Act, and proved how mistaken was right for the time, but when the r ight h o n. gentleman gentleman bad since discovered that the miscalculation was was the theory upon which it was founded. In the second implied censure on the government for not having expressed with himself, Benet removing in Sept. the fetters from the of the periods of distrem-namely, from April to October, approval of their own conduct, his reply was, that nobody Bank, the removal of which in Dec., he was pre -1847, the Bank of England was brought to the absurd and had blamed them. He might exclaim -gun eitimerneif f p are d to prove, put a stop to the panic. (Hear, r idi cu lous,-he might even say the lamentable catastrophe. They were content to rest with the general and tacit appro- hear .) What was the fact at this moment ? that with 8,000,000 of bullion in its coffers, it might but bation of the house ; but if the right hon. gentleman and Though there were two millions less of Bank of England for the timely interference of the government, have been the house insisted on a formal vote of thanks, he should oer- notes now in circulation than there were on the 25th of reduced to the painful step of stopping payment. When tainly not feel bound to oppose their resolution. (" Hear," October last, money could now be had on good securities on people talked of the security which the Bank possessed, and a laugh.) With regard to the second resolution he easy terms, while at that time it could scarcely be obtained in what manner, let him ask, could the dead weight could not express the same approbation, as he thought it an on any terms. It was the monstrous rate of discount con have been made available ? The securities held by IL-timed and, in many respect', a mischievous resolution. eminent upon the restriction on the Bank. which created that the Bank were utterly unsaleable at the period He thought it shout , ' not have been brought forward; and if alarm that had resulted in ruin to so many commercial he referred to. There were no buyers in the market for the the right hon. gentleman would consent to withdraw it, her houses. As the difficulty of obtaining Bank notes increased stock poreised by the Bank ; and as for Exchequer Bills, he Majeate's government would rest content with the first the price of produce fell, as that the merchant was doubly (Mr. Herrin) believed that if they had been thrown upon resolution. (Laughter.) The right bon. gentleman pro crippled with regard to the spirit of speculation, which, ac the pavement there would have hardly been found any one posed to suspend the acts of 1844 and 184,5, that was, to sus- corfing to the right hon. gentleman, had been the cause of willing to take them up. What he was therefore entitled, peed the laws under which the issue of bank netts through- the difficulty. Except in the articles of sugar and con, he from all the facts which he had recited, to aatert, was, that out the United Kingdom was regulated. (Hear, hear.) The did not think that there had been any excess over the oral the Millisulties and distress of September and October last suspension might be either temporary or permanent, as the nary transactions of commerce. And, with respect to sugar, ondiset bekttributed to the carelessness °Mite Batik of Eng- right hon. gentleman had left the matter to doubt, but to that excess had been brought about by the Chancellor of bail He would now proceed to advert to the charge brought him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) it did not seem that the Exchequer himself, who, when he reduced the mem ret the Bank as having been the authors of the recent the slightest case had been made out for even temporary duties in 1846, stated that the consumption in this couatry It was asserted that the Bank, hastily reducing the suspension. The right hon. gentleman had stated truly that must enormously increase in consequence. And, as to corn,go discount to 24 per ant., had sinned against the spirit end the alarm in April and October hat had been calmed by the vernment were themselves importers in the early part of 1847. principle of the act of 1844. In so far as the interests of the low state of the Bank nerve. He agreed that such was and certainly, looking at the then circumstances of the coun public at large were concerned, it perhaps might be said the cause, together with the measures of restriction which try, no blame attachedto them on that account ; and the eneee truly that the Beak ought not to have done so. But the the Bank had found it necessary to take. The excessive regiment given by them, together with the high price which act of 1844 had restricted the Bank in its operations, and failures in August had added tothe alarm, but they had arisen in consequence of the f a mine that article reached, induced they therefore acted as the unman of their constituents de- from causes wholly imespeMve of the &Mena of the Bank. He the merchants to ransack the world to obtain it, But ito fax ' Bl ended ; and looking at the matter in that point of view, believed there could be very little doubt but that the from deserving to be abused and stigmatised on that account, he considered the Bank was justified in following the game commercial distress h a d b ee n c a u sed by a want of the usual he held that they were entitled to commiseration for their I coulee as other banking and discounting estab • erns. accommodation. He:believed that there had been a great she misfortunes, and to the thanks of the country. The promoters The discount was reduced to two-and-half per cent. inner sorption of capital, partly arising from the extensive purchases of the bill of 1844 had told the house and the country that diately after the Bank Act of 1844 was passed, never hay- of food, and partly from the investments in railroads, and th ou gh it would not perhaps prevent the recurrence of com ing discounted paper previously to that period at a lower consequently a diminution of the amount available for ge- merciel panics, it would mitigate their evils; but on the very ro t e than fear per cent. The framer' of the Bank Act had nerd commercial purposes. Of course the instrument* used first occasion when its operation was felt, instead of mitigating no right to complain of this proceeding. _ When that act in such investments were Bank notes , and the more there it had ',retested those evils, and added to the d ifficulties was agree d to then was 16,300,0001. of bullion in the coffers were required for railways and corn the less there were left under which the country laboured. When foreign exchan ge( the Bank of England ; and front June 1844 to 1845, for the purposes of the billbrokers. In the course of g ee were favourable, and gold was coming in in abundance, there was no diminution in the amount et gold. In June, August last it w as no torious that more than one biUbroker no doubt it would be exceedingly easy to go on under this 1845, the bullion in the Bank coffers rose to 18,600,000 e stopped payment, and that the demand for Bank of England bill-but whim foreign exchanges were adverse, and (*that - the t amount ever known to have been notes was unprecedented, the discountsdiscounts having increasied credit and panic prevailed, it was altogether impossible there. lChw facts °mutilated the psapt allaWer le lbw enormously, and the Bank mane having decreased it could mond. (Hear, hear.) It had been said, who accused the Bank of imProaidemt Maseedows, wader to an extent to alarm the beaten, who feared only raise the rate of interest and you stop the de the act of 1844, and sufficiently proved also that the fall to that the Bank would cease discounting. His be- mend for Bank notes ; but the fact was, the higher the 21 per cent. discount was a reasonable step. Some time lief was, that this had been the cause of the rate of interest, the greater the demand, and ld be the after the period to which he referred, the right boa. baronet, panic. (Hear, hear.) No doubt the panic was owing greater the dismay and discredit, the greater wou the member for Tamworth, expressed his satisfaction with to the low state of the reserve, and the red effect of the the desire of every man to mime his honour and credit, by the state of the Bank affairs, and even said that he con- government letter was to place the Bank in the same pod- p r o v iding Bank notes eon b e f ore h o requ ired them. sidered them to be prosperous. Now, what other instance tion as if it had a large reserve. Parties were then restored It was important that this question should be put *elle at of improvidence had been alleged against the Bank of Eng- to the belief that they could get assistance from the Bank rest. He was convinced, and the experience we had had of land? If any no looked at the returns of the amount of if they required it, and in consequence confidense was re- it proved, that the bill of 1844 never could be succeedul. The bullion it would be found that the Bank did increase the rate stand. It was not that there had been previously an in Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had eared of discount as its stock of bullion decreased. In November, adequate supply of notes, or a Feiner demand for assistance whether the object of those w ho supported the motion war 1845, there was a decrease of bullion in the Bank coffers, after, as the increase of c ir cul ation consequent on the letter to repeal the whole bill ? He did not mean to say that was owing to its having been notified that there had been a did not exceed 400,0001. (Hear, hear.) He did not ay what hen ciCtired, though he should not object to it; but failure in one of the mainstays food for the people - he this for the purpose of blaming the Bank for reducing its re- be was anelous they sho u ld go into committee, end if they meant the potato crop. A rum was withdrawn serve, ea hew ithed to avoid controverted positions . What did so he should ' propose to strike out of the act that pert from the country to supply the cod rendered nommary_to was the state of the reserve at the present moment ? Ac- which limits the Beak to the 14,000,0001. as issues on soca import, and the bullion fell from 14,600,0001. to 13,700,0001. cording to the statement which had appeared in the cities, and also that which li mited the issues on silver to One' The Bank then increased the rate of discount to 31 per cent. Gazette, on the previous Friday, the reserve in f our th o f th ose upon gold (Hear, home The price of money at the Bank remained in this state. notes and coin amounted to 8 , 185 , 0001 . He had re- Mr. W. BROWN - , who was very indistinctly heard' until the month of August, 1846, when the amount of the ceived, just before entering the house, the account which having adverted to the causes of the late commercial diei bullion in the Bank rote to 18,366,0001. The Bank put would appear in the Gazette to-morrow (this day), and it culties, observed that the bill of 1844 was • dead letter until back the rate of discount, and reduced it to the* per cent., stated the reserve on Saturday het to be* notes and coin the panic came, and then, so far from doing what its pro following the course indicated by the act, step b step as it 9,686,0001. moon had promised-prevent fluctuation of prices and a ware. He was fearful of fatiguing the house with these de- Mr. PATTISON-It is greater now, cure confidence-it had aggravated the evil. There had been tails--(hem, hear)-but he was anxious to show that the The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER -He greater oscillation in the price of money under this bill during Bank was not to blame for the monster; disarrangements thought it better to confine himself to documents whit* the late crisis than in any former period of financial difficulty that had oc c urre d , and likewise to chow that the act of 1844 would speedlly be ia the bands of the peblic, and looking to during the last2s yean. In 1825 the rate of discounts was-the ..