The Express. — London, England, 1853-05-28 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS.—FawAT, MAY 27. Vie LORD CamicsaLoa took kis seat at 6 o'olock. PETITIONS PRESENTED. Tin CITWtAL Patron. —By Lord BROUGHAM, hos M. Robert Owen, in fewer of this of the Crystal Palace, on Sundays. The noble horned lord =the prayer of the petition. He believed that tne epening the Crystal Palace on the Sends, wou:d be be prevent penons from resorting to public lioasn, and that the Crystal Pelee' would be set up as a rival to the gin palate. He was informed that no lees than 41,000 per- VMS were counted going into dram shops in Edinburg on one Sudsy. Ile had ale a petirion to the same effect from • clergyman of Aberdare in Wales, in whom parish there were 16.900 workmen. Ile thought that the building should only be closest during divine service. SALE Or SPIRITS ox SUNDAY'S —By the Earl of CAR LISLE. from Hull, Bristol, and other places, against the sale of spitituoin liquors on the Sunday. NO lit E OF )101'ION. The Earl of CLANCARTy gave notice that on the Ord K June he should lour t, r CHUM rtturus relative to coni- Mittel/ is In land. RUSSIA AND TILE The Earl of MALIIESBURY said their lordships, in ' Common with the pantie, must have been for the last fort • nicht aware of the extreme importance of the &Min unw and to Is ing on at C ostantinoplc. He wished to ask the Earl ut Clarendon whether he had given a correct account of the de lands aide by l'rioce Menchikolf; and whether, considering as he did that the inte rests of France and this country were identical on this sahject, the iiirru:ions which had been given to Lord Stratford were identical with the instructions given Sy the French governm.ut 'll their arnhassa tor at Constantinople, whether, in lac:, those two diplomatists were acting in old. ma in support of the Porte under its present (mergence ? The Fool of CLARENDON cauld assure their lordships that there was no unni.lingness on his part to answer the ;equines which had been addressed to him by his noble friend, and still less had be any desire to withhold from their lordships any information on a subject upon which his noble friend had slid—and most naturally—they must feel most anxious. But he was sure he need not appeal a vain to his noble friend who had so lately filled the office which be then had the honour of occupying, or to their lordship, sot to press fur informatics which it might be incouve Merit to the:publie service for him to glee. (Hear, hear.) Nego tiations were still pending ; and their lordships wool! be the leas inclined to pr. as him to mire** an opinion which the noble lord had Galled for when he told them !hat the date of the last official despatches which the government had re ceived from Lord Stratford was the 9th of May. A short time prior to that, as his noble friend had stated, the question of the holy places, which involved a grave otrrnce, offered to the Emperor of Ramie by the violation of engagements towards him by the Turkish government, had been satis factorily arranged ; au4 the friendly and judicious inter vention of Lord Stratford had promoted that end—an interference which had li , sen duly acknowledged by the negotiator. It was also true that on the sth of May a pro ject of a convention was presented to the Porte by Prince bienchik if, bat the ultimatum was not given, the best proof e which was that there was every reason to believe that other propositions hail glace been made. Lord Strat ford, writing en the 9th, WAS not able to inform her th• jeaty's government what answer would be given by the Porte; and that was the whole of the 01 ial information _ , which they bad received. The government had other in formation, iu common with the rest of the public., lomause no small amount of business was now transacted by the electric telegraph, which although useful in some respects was inconvenient in others, for although it sonounced facts, it seldom gave the reasons fur them. As for instance, on the 10th they learnt this note had been rejected by the Porte, bit they did not know the grounds of its rejection. They also knew that a modification of the ministry had taken place—that a fresh note wan presented, and morn delay had taken place ; and they also I that on the 24th Prieco Mench;kulf was still at Constantinople ; but they did not know whether all the negotiations were over. lie thought he cool I, therefore, appeal to their lordships whether it would not be in the highest degree improper on his part if he were to pretend to give their lordships a correct account of what ha I taken plea (Hear, hear.) But is answer to his noble friend's question as to the policy of the government, he had no hesitation in say ing that the views and policy of the government had under gone no change; they looked upon it as the true policy, and maintained that it was the interest of this country to uphold the Turkish empire ; and they felt that it was due not only to our own obligations, but to the hest interests of Europe, to maintain the independence of Turkey. (Hear, hear.) Ile could also give this further information to his noble friend, who had asked whether France and England were co-operating—he bad no hesitation in saying that they both took the same view of the question, and were acting to concert. (Hear, hear.) There existed between the two governments, and he hoped would continue to exist on this subject, a must cordial concert and identity of feeling. (Hear, hear.) The Earl of HARDWICKE thought thA the answer which the noble earl had given was not very satisfactory, although no doubt it was the best he could give. Lord BEAUMONT bad no doubt that her Majesty's go- 1 vernment wbuld do everything that was necessary to sup port the independence of the Turkish empire. Lord BROUGHAM would suggest the great propriety of Closing this discussion—(hear, hear)—which was premature, Inasmuch as they were absolutely ignorant of nine parts out of ten of the facts of the case. (Hear, hear.) To con tinue the discussion would be inconvenient and might be mischievous, as there was a delicate negotiation pending, the difficulties of which would be increased by such a THE SUCCESSION DUTIES. The Earl of MALMESBL ILI then rose, in pumanm of notice, to move for a select committee to inquire iota the probable tifect of extending to the cue of successions to real property, and property under settlement, the stamp du ties now passible in respect of legacies. Ile paid, in making this !notion. he could state with the utmost sincerity so d frankness that be did so without the slightest portion of par,' tir political spirit; and he promised their lordships that so far as he was concerned no atom of that element should be introduced into the quistion. He must com mence by abscising that be thought that house was the most fitting place for a preparatory inquiry on this im portant subject, because it was composed of persons who were not personally interested in the matter, and who could not therefore be actuated by selfish feelings. When the last goveroment retired, in consequence of their finan cial policy being disapproved of by the House of it was to be expected that their successors would take up the subject of finance ; especially as the pubiic had for seve ral years taken more interest in that branch of public ques tions than in any other. But he (the Earl of Malmesbury) did not expect that Mr. Gladstone would have dealt with the subject of a succesaioa tax upon real and settled pro perty, inasmuch as be thought tbe difficulties of that *object were not exaggerated when painted in sub vivid colours by - almost every statesman who had lived during the last half century. (Hear, hear.) He had no hesitation in saying that it was the mod amen dously inquisitorial bill that ever was proposed. (Rear, hear.) It it posesd, Ms% in God's name, would accept the situation of trashes or guardian ? (Hear.) He believed that it would waft valet injuriously on the landed pro perty, sad ismaeopeently on the constitution of the country. Tabs tie swot a mu whose name would be immortal ba dos swede Odds nmatry. After the battle of Trafalgar the Mad ended on estate on Lord Nelson, and it so hap pened diet elms. 1905 there had been three collateral me ssed= L this limdly. If this act bad been in operation ark( OM pieta this property which had been bestowed he amiss readied the motry would bars been taxed One anent time. te the mast of 3 per nut. (Hear.) He Yoked with appreheadem is this tax also because it was to be a permanent tax, end ammo it offered no security that it would not be isweses4 whenever the Chancellor of the Eachequer wanted merrey. It was become he was con vinced a great deal of ireeressee prevailed on this subject that he asked for a amisittee. If their lordships granted him a committee he would go Otto that committee with a mind open to moniedes ; mil if he found that the tax was one for which geed mama mad be alleged, he would joie with those who felt admiration for Mr. Uladstone, and would give him credit lee Audios the means of adding to the revenue of the asentry without doing injustice to any class. (Rear, hear.) The Earl of ABERDEEN said that the motion of the noble earl commended itself by a certain degree of plausi bility, for at first sight it did not seem unreasonable that a measure so impoitant, se difficult, so complicated, and so personally interesting to their lordships, should undergo such an inquiry as that for which the noble earl asked. Yet there were reasons which should, he thought, induce their lordships aot to support the motion of the noble earl. They were such at all events as should prevent him from giving the slightest encouragement to such a proposition. First he begged to call attention to the time at which the motion we. made. If this had been quite a new system of financ , al policy, upon which thclegialature bad to make up their minds before coming tom decision, there might become reason for the motion. Hut the proposition of the govern ment had been stated in great detail by his right hon. friend five or six weeks ago in the House of Commons, and the reeolutiens proposed on the subject had been armed a fortnight ago without any division. (" Hear," from the Earl of Derby.) That being so, it would be impossible to secede to the proposition for in quiry now made by the noble earl, without also joining is the doubt, and the more than doubt, which the noble earl expressed of the wisdom and justice of the measure. Now happen what might, thee: lordship* might appoint a com mittee if they thought fit ; but nothing should induce him to express any doubt of the wisdom and justice and equity of the proposal of his right hon. frisod. (Hear, hear) That proposal was now lister. the House of Commons, in the form of a bill, and the speech of the noble earl was made as if that measure bad been before their lordships' house, and stood fi..4 a second reading. (Hear, bear.) The house mast be aware that whether the committee was ap pointed or net, sad whatever. the result at which it might arrive, they could not alter one tittle of the measure without infringing on the privileges of the other house. (Hear, hear.) No doubt it was perfectly -comtent for their lordships to throw the bill out on the secon d reading (hear, hear)—but he need not say how deeply he should regret the risk to thee lordships' house, as well as to the country, from the adop tion of so rash and impolitic a course. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl had fairly told them that he asked for a committee with a view of disproving the contents of the but even the noble earl did Lot deny the justice cf tho proposition. The noble fail only referred to the difhc, j' ties of executi.n in the way of the meagre, and he re ferred, in support oc his view, to the authority of Mr. Fox end Mr. Sherido.e. Now, with all due respect to the authority of Mr. Fox and Mr. Sheridan. he Ix:need they had made gnat progress, especially in linone.ial principles, since their days; and he thought it was generally admitted that Mr. Pitt was right in the eropoeition he made. (Hear.) The country has fur a long time felt the injustice of the exemption of land from the tax re., successions. (Hear.) That feeling was gaining ground daily, and he could ask ' any one of their lordship+ if he could candidly say that this exemption could possibly be maintained much longer? (Hear, hear) it was true Glue was no riot, no violence, co outcry at the present moment, but there existed a strong feeling of the injustice and inconsistency of exempt ing land from a tax which was imposed on all other pro piety. Moreover, this measure was iudispenusble for the carrying into effect the finapeial scheme proposed by his right bun. friedd the Chancellor of the Exchequer. With out this measure it woult not he possible to arty into effect that scheme. At all events, he, on the put of the government, assured the it lord-hips and the country that they had not the slightest intention of wavering or hesi tating an instant with regard to the wisdom, the justice, or tke policy of this tax. (Cheer.) The Earl of DERBY said that he had no attire to cuter on that occasion upon the subject which had been so ably brought before their lordships by hie noble friend. But there were some observatiens of the noble earl opposite which he could not allow to pass without remark. The course puesucil by the noble earl reminded him of what Lord Althorn, V en a member of Earl Grey's government, Raid on one (evasion in reference to • measure then under discussion. When Lord Altherp was pressed on the subject be said he would abide by the decision of the cabinet, that he knew good reasons for the unwire, but he was unable to state them, and upon that lie asked fur the sup port of the House of Commons. ('• Hear, rear," and • laugh.) Whether their lordships had so much cone ',nee in the noble earl as the noble lord demanded from the Howe of Commons, he did not linear, but his speech was of the same kind, fur the noble earl did net attempt to grapple with the mutant injustice and impracticabi:ity of the measure as exposed by his noble friend, but eontenttd himself by saying that the government were satisfied of the juslice of the measure, that they would not waver • single instant, that they would not allow inquiry or con sultation, bat that it must be intend right or wrong. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl still that they might inquire it they pleased, hut that he could not writ for the result nr that inquiry, and that both houses of parliament must bliadly pose Vie measure. lie (the Earl of Derby) hardly thougot that this was the line of argument which a prime mini-ter of England should adopt. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl said that this was a antject which pecu liarly belonged to the province of the House of Commons. But he (Lord Derby) had yet to learn that their lordships' house were bound to register the decrees of the House of Cummoos, even in financial matter., or that the House of Lords were bound to comply blindly with their requests, be they right or wrong, be they just or unjust, be they practicable or impracticable. As to the immense sun-, attained by the financial projects of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, he must oe permitted to doubt whether they had been received with that degree of favour which the government anticipated. He hail heard it whispered that after dealing, as the Cis:timeline of the Exchequer had done, with very many millions of stock, the substantial saving from the conversion would be only some 400,13001., and that his financial resolutions were regarded in the city as only so much "mete paper. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman was, no doubt, a man of great abilities; it might nut be his fault that his scheme had not met with greater success. He (Lord Derby) did not condemn it; but ho doubted whether it was an exemplification of that immense and overwhelming suecess which led the noble cell (Aberdeen) to sathat such • Chancellor of the Exchequer had never yet been seen, that such success hod never been attained by any financial mea sure, and that he and his colleagues were the only parties to conduct the government. (" Hear," and laughter.) In order to like off the income tax in 1860—which he hoped their lord-hips would live to see—(laughter)—it was said that it was essential to impose this tax on successions ; but were they quite sure that the Chancellor of the Exchequer's calculations as to tie amount of income to be derived from this tax were correct? He calculated that property changed hands by succession once in 30 years upon an gee Of this they might judge by the re currence of the tax on personal property ; and the calculation was that about one-sixteenth of all the personal property in tho country was brought to tax every ye •r its consequence of the legacy duty. If that were so, the probable duration of each succession to personal pro perty was an anemic of 16 years, not of 30. (Hear, hear.) lie was at a loss to know what there was in landed pro perty that should render the succession more slow than to personal property, or how a person inheriting both kinds of property could at his decease give a succession to the one in a period of 16 years, and to the other in 30 year*. In that case, in his capacity as an owner of real property, he must outlive himself by 14 years as an owner of personal property. (Laughter.) At all events, it was • prima folio reason to doubt whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not exaggerated by nearly one half the period of the recurrence of successions, and consequently under-rated by about one-half the amount of annual income that would accrue to him under that tax. Looking at the necessary expense of such succession,, and the amount of this tax on a large property, he would ask what those four sucensors would have had to live upon during the first six months if this bill had been in opera tion ? (Hear, it.ar.) The noble earl opposite had made no attempt to answer his noble friend on this or any other point. There was the case of persons coming into possession, as tenants for life, of heir-looms, which were often of immense value. Suppose any of their lordships to be in possession, as an hereditary jewel, of the Koh-i-Noor—whatever its value might be, one or two million sterling—(hear, hear,)—he would have to pay the tax on the value of that jewel, measured by the ;probable duration of his life ; and on his death his successor would have to pay again on it ; though neither one nor the other could realise • single shilliug out of it, still they must pay. There was no privet* property in England, or in the world, that could stand two or three successive taxes on two or three successive inheritances of the Koh-i-Noor. (Hear, hear.) Take the case of • tontine, to which there were 100 subscribers, and the last survivor was to take the property. Of course, as each life dropped Ice, each survivor would acquire a new beneficial lateral, and would be taxed upon that additional interest, though none but the ultimate survivor would ever derive any real benefit. (Hear, hear.) Then there was the case of annuities. It was • gross injustice to levy a fresh tax on the owner of the property charged with annuities as each of them fell in. The owner of • landed property sub ject to certain annuities mu.t, as each of them fell in, present himself before the taxing officer to declare the contingent benefit he derived from that source ; then he was tined on the value of that annuity measured by the probable duration of his life ; and this was to be re peated upon every single annuity. Could there be • system calculated to produce more perpetual harass and annoyance than this system of taxation upon what the Chancellor of the Exchequer called successions to beneficial interests? Whilst they looked with deference and respect to the opinions andproposed legislation of the House of Commons, he trusted that upon every occasion they should exercise their own independent judgment, and not fear to say whether upon the whole the adoption or rejection of this bill would be the greater evil—at all events, that they would not fear to say that before they legislated they would at least inquire. (Hear, hear.) Earl GBAN VILLE said the proposition had been almost annually made by independent members of the house, and full discussions had ensued thereon. The proposition had been met by the same objections, but not the very best arguments, by different Chancellors of the Exchequer. As to the unfairness of taking thirty years as the average interval of successions, he would remind the house that, some time ago, the average value of life in this country was thirty-three years; and no doubt that value bad since improved, particularly among the higher classes. The noble earl had put the ease of a minor succeeding to an estate mortgaged to a certain amount, and said that he might not have the means of paying the tax on the succes sion. But the thane proposed in the bill was to reduce the gross to the net income, and to levy the tax on that amount; so that no difficulty would arise in the case supposed. The noble earl bad alluded to the hard ship of paying a sum of money . en succession to the koh-i-noor, bat there was a clause in the bill which exempted such heirlooms from any tax whatever. (Hear, hear.) The question of timber had been referred to. All ornamental timber, such as shrubberies, would be ex empted from paying the tax. With regard to the sale and valuntion of timber, the person succeeding would have this option. He might either pay the tax upon the average in come of a certain number of years, or, if he did not choose to take that alternative, be might have the whole timber valued, and then calculate the tax upon the probable dura tion of his life at 3 per cent. The same principle would be ' adopted with regard to mines, and if there was no value in a mine, no tax would be imposed upon it. As to widows, the ease rather broke down. The noble earl said that the son or heir to the person who left the widow would have to pay the tax upon anteceding to the jointure when it came to him from the widow. But it should be remem• bered that in valuing the estate the widow's charge would be taken off the valuation ; and when it ultimately descended to the heir, he had only to pay the tax upon that which he had not received at an earlier period. (Hear, hear.) The same principle would apply where an annuity was settled on a steward. When it fell in, and the owner of the estate derived an accession of property to that amount, he would pay pro tanto upon that—not 10 per eent.—hut according to his degree of consanguinity to the original proprietor. As to trustees, the machinery of the bill was exactly the same m had existed for more than fifty years with respect to leaseholds, as well as mere money or peraoaal property. During that time there bad been exactly the same machinery, and the same liability ; yet trustees had eta cuted trust., and, ea he was informed, not a single question had arisen in law as to the value of the properties so dealt with. With regard to successions in a short number of years, there would actually be a saving by the proposition of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. In tontines no body would pay till they actually received the money and became beneficial successors ; and upon that succession the tax would be paid. Small landed proprietors would be taxed in proportion to their interest in the estate; and to those the bill would be a positive advantage. He hoped that their lordships would not, alter the request of the noble earl at the head of the government, insist upon having a committee on this ques tion. He did not believe it would weaken the government the least in carrying out the bill, though it might have an unfortunate effect on public opinion as regarded - that house. He entirely agreed with the noble earl opposite in scouting the idea that their lordships could be moved by any petty personal motives ; but there was no doubt that their pre judices—for eeerTbody had their prejudices—were bound up with the landed interest. Ho believed tha• their lord ships' house stood higher in the estimation of the public than it had done almost at any previous time i and this was THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, MAY 28, 1R53. owing to the general feeling that their interests were the same as those of all other classes, whatever their station and influence in the country. He should regret to see their, lordships adopting any mode of obstructing a measure which was generally approved by the country. If they were to take this course, it could have no practical results beyond throwing discredit upon the inquiries of the committees. Lord ST. LEONAItDS said: Pass this tax as it stood, and it would be tantamount to effecting a mortgage upon every man's property, fur a mortgage was nothing but a charge upon an estate, audible tax was precisely the same. (Hear, hear,) How was the tax to be raised, and by what machinery was it to be collected ? A more odious tea could would never be out of their lordships' houses. He would come after a death, and examine the settlements. Every man's settlement would be ransacked by a public officer in a public office. The officer must call on the death of any member of a family to know the nature of the settlement. The inquisitorial nature of the income tax was nothing to that of the tax now proposed. The banker had his book to show when bills became due; the tax gatherer here would have his book to tee when succ.ssions became due. there should be a differential duty as against land, bat that a difference should be made between permanent and precarious incomes. The Duke of ARGYLL—WeII then, there was to be a differential duty as against realised property, of which land formed a great part. If any change had taken place in the legacy duties, it would evidently have been a change in the direction now proposed. The proposal of the present government on that subject was the centre key stone of the whole arch of their financial policy—it was that around which all the other propositions clustered. He had no hesitation in saying that the differential income tax as against land would have exceeded in amount the proposed imposition of legacy duty, and it was to be remembered that this legacy duty might then have been added. Their lordships then divided-- For the motion. Contents—Present 57 Proxies Non-Contents—Present Proxies 65-139 Then all the property must be valued at a very great (Hear, bear.) One of the most enormass establishments must be set up to carry on all these operations, with re ferenez• to all the property in the kingdom. W hat would become of the sanctisy of private lie under such a bill ? Time had perfected the mode by which a man could now enjoy property under settlement, but all that would be put an end to by the proposed measure. Look also at the number of offices which must be created, and the great patronage it would give to the government. Ag ain, was Zr. land in a position to which they ought to impose such a tax on her ? Under the Encumbered Estates Act, numbers of estates had been sold, which the ponseisnrs and their an cestors had erjuy. d before them. This bill would create n new midis of dealing with property in Ireland—and the proprietors is many instances would be obliged to sell their estates in consequence of this succession LIZ. The cues mittee now asked for they had a right to have ; and I.y the time the bill arrived in their lordship? house, it would h.,vc aff mded them information which would satisfy the country and themselves as to the course they ought to adopt with reference to it. (Hear, hear.) The LOUD CHANCELLOR said that Iris noble end learned friend having, with the authority which attached to his name, denounced the measure as and pregnant with the grossest injustice, he felt it incumbent on him to explain why he thought that charge to bo utterly groundless and to rest on no founds:ion whatever. The noble and Majority against the motion l3 The other orders were disposed ot, and the house ad journed at a quarter to HOUSE OF COMMONS.-FRTDAY, MAY 27. The SPEALZ took the chair at four o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. - . . The following bills were severally read s third time and passed:—Caledonian Railway (conneetinz branch with Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway. &c.); North and South Western Junctioii liallway (Hammersmith); Sunderland Dock ; Victorii (London) Dockswith an amendment); and South Eastern Railway ( Read ing eatension, &c.) DURHAM ELECTION COMMITTEE. - On the order of the day for swearing the above com mittee, Mr. T. EGERTON moved that the name of Mr. R. W. Duncan, member for Dundee, be omitted from the list ' on the ground that the hoe member had already served for upwards of am• nth on a railway committee, and his pre sence was still necessary on that committee. Sir J. TROLLOPE 'lid not mean ti oppose the present motion, but hoped that it would not be drawn into a pre cedent. The witnesses in the Durham case must neces sarily be brought from a great distance, and thus loss might accrue to the parties from any change in the arrange ments. learned lord who spoke last, and those who preceded him, objected to it—first, because it included hind in the legacy tax ; and next because it embraced not only successions com ing on deaths derived from wills or intestates, but also suc cessions coming from settlements. It was im;xirtont to sepa rate those two considerations. And first he would ask, was there any injustice, any inexpediency, in /subjecting land to the legacy duty, in the same way as personal property ? Was it unjust when they were imposing a tax on one species of property to impose it on all ? (Hear, hear.) Why should it not be taxed? Prima facie, when they were imposing that which was a property tax, whatever name they might give it, whether it was land, tithes, money in the funds, stock in trade, or whatever it might be, justice presumed that they should tax it all as equally as might be. (Hear, herr.) But let them get rid of a legal difficulty which attached to all subjects of that kind. It was said to be unjust. Now, if it was meant that cases might be suggested in which there would be an in equality of burden, he would concede it. Would they, how ever, tell him to which of their taxes that would not apply ? Was it in the nature of things to have absolute justice as connected with any possible tax ? Nobody could pretend that the income tax was absolutely just. Every subject of taxation was liable to the same difficulty. They could only aim at arriving at the nearest approach to justice, and surely that would ho to impose a property tax as equally as they could en property of all descriptions; and the injustice would be the other way. (Hear, hear.) Reference had been made to Mr. Pitt's measure in 179 G. Now, he did not feel the necessity of falling back on authority ; but it was nevertheless true that Mr. Pitt proposed to levy his legacy duty on realty as well as personalty, but he was obliged to yield to the opposition which was raised against it. And it was said he substituted the land tax of 1798, making that tax perpetual. Why, the land tax was imposed by William II , and was renewed every year. Everybody knew it was coining, and Mr. Pitt's sole object in making it perpetual was to give the option of redeeming it. It was a poor ar gument, indeed, to fall back upon the land tax. It was called a land tax, and was a sort of local tax, each district being bound to raise a certain sum of money ; and the con sequence was, that instead of its being now an equal tax, the inequalities were so absurd, that in some parishes it was 241. in the pound, whilst in others it was 2s. So that, to refer to the land tax as anything that ought to be followed, seemed very absurd. But his noble and learned friend said that Mr. Pitt did not propose to tax children. True, be did not propose it in 1796, but he did at a later period, and it was clear what his views were on the subji et if he could have carried them. But was that all ? Feeling the injus tice of what he bad been driven to in 1796, be endeavoured to get out of it in 1805, not, it was true, by putting a legacy duty on land, but, going as near to it as he could, he im ps* a legacy tax upon all money that was charged upon lead, and upon all estates that were devised to be sold, and be made them pay the same as if they were personal pro- perty. But then it was asked what was to be done in reference to a party succeeding to an estate heavily mortgaged ? And it was said, " You never could impose the tax." Why this novel tax hod been for a long time in sxi tense upon a large portion of the property of the country ; the leasehold property was all subject to thiktax. (Hear, hear.) All property renewable—property held under deans and chapters; and it applied to nearly all the house property in Loadon—(hear, hear)—as well as to a considerable number of properties that were originally mortgages for a long term of years, and had become ahem lute. To such property the injustice, if it were so, applied; and it was an injustice to tax his leasehold house, whilst his neighbour's freehold house escaped the duty. (Hear, hear.) There was another injustice: the present legacy duty was imposed oil the absolute value of the property in leaseholds, but the present bell would set that right, the calculation being made upon the annual value. Having disposed of the first part of the subject, be thought it was equally clear that there would be no injustice in extending the legacy tax to what was called succession—that was, making parties pay the tax not only on property which came to them by the will of a party, but by settle. ment. Why should it not be so? Uis noble and learned friend and himself, as lawyers, looked at the matter very differently from the way in which the country regarded it. The tax upon personal property, whilst real property was exempt, was felt to be an injustice ; it was benefiting the richer classes by exempting them from a tax which fell on the poorer classes—(hear, hear).—and that was the feel ing which prevailed most extensively in the country. (Hear, hear.) There was no distinction in principle whether pro- perty was given by will or settlement. It was a property tax at the time the party succeeded to the inheritance ; and whether it was by arrangement made by his parents in his lifetime or by will, he saw no reason ion principle why the tax should not be levied. (Hear, hear.) But it was com• ''t would After a short conversation, Mr. DUNCAN by no means wished to oppose his per. sons' convenience to the exigences of public business. If the houso released him he should feel much obliged, but if not, he should of course bow to the decision of the house. The motion wu then agreed to, and the committee SWOIII. The following committees were sworn at the bar. Clare County, Liverpool, and Sligo. BURY ST. EDMUND'S ELECTION COMMITTEE. Mr. STRUTT moved that the hon. member fur Tewkesbury be discharged from attendance on this com mittee, on the ground that he was already on one or two committees which would be much inconvenienced if he were withdrawn. After a few words from Sir F. T. BARING, Mr. THORNELY suggested that members who had valid reasons for declining attendance on election com mittees, ehould write to the general committee of elections, stating their reasons in order that other arrangements might be made. This motion was also agreed to, and the committee sworn, as was also the Peterborough committee. BLACKBURN PETITION. The SPEAKER informed the house that he had re ceived a letter from the agent to the petition against the return of M. J. Fielden, E.q., informing him that that petition would not be proceeded with. PUBLIC BUSINESS. THE LATE DOCKYARD PROMOTIONS. Mr. HIGGINS gave notice that when the evidence taken before the committee on the late dockyard promotions was circulated and had been in the hands of merrbers a sai -1 cient time for them to consider it, he would call the atten tion of the house to the subject, ant submit a motion thereon; but until the case of Lieutenant Eoglefield, which bore upon those promotions in some degree, had been reported upon, he should not be able to state the precise terms of his motion. He might, however, observe that it would not have reference merely to the conduct of individuals, but would apply generally to the proceedings of the late board in regard to all matters referred to the committee. RETURN. Sir H. MADDOCK moved for •• Copies of all petitions to, and order of her Majesty in council of all memorials pre , seated to the President of the Board of Trade ; of all cor respondence addressed to the President and to the Secre tary of the Board of Trade ; and of statements submitted ' with such correspondence, or abstracts of such statements, and of all correspondence addressed by the Board of Trade to various persons in relation to an application made on be. half of the promoters and the provisional committee of the London, Liverpool, and North American Screw Steam Ship Company, between the month of September, and the month of April, 1813, for the grant of a Loyal charter of incorporation to the said company." Agreed to. ISLE OF MAN. Mr. EWART asked when it was probable the measure for regulating the fiscal duties of the Isle of Man would be sent over to the island ? Mr. J. WILSON mid the bill was in course of prepara tion and would shortly be forwarded. CUSTOMS ACTS. To reply to Mr. W. Snows, Mr. WILSON stated that the bill for consolidating the Customs Acts and for regulating the management of the Cus toms department was in a forward state, and he hoped to be able to lay it on the table in the course of a fortnight. DRAINAGE COMMISSION (IRELAND). In answer to Col. DONNA, The same Hos. GENTLEMAN stated that the report of this commission might be expected without much further delay. THE AFFAIRS OF THE PORTE—THE HOLY PLACES. On the motion that the house at its rising do adjourn to Monday nest, Mr. DISRAELI rose and said—l am most unwilling to take advantage of this motion at any time for the purpose of entering into a general discussion upon any subject, and nothing but a sense of public duty would induce me now to take this opportunity of adverting to the topic to which lam about to refer. In doing so, I will endeavour to confine myself as much as possible to an inquiry of her Majesty's government, making one or two remarks merely in order to bring the auhject to their atten tion, and the attention of the house. That subje ct is, the state of our relations with the Ottoman Porte. The house will recollect, that early in the spring of the present year, considerable alarm was created, not only in this country, but in other states of Europe, by the arrival of an extra ordinary embassy from Russia, at Constantinople—but that alarm was in some degree allayed, by the confident declaration of persons in authority, that this mission, though .. pisined of that the bill -___ put this tie on personal estate apparently commenced with circumstances of great pomp succeeded to by settlement. That was true, and he thought and urgency, did not after all refer to any subject of general it to be perfectly just. They should overlook the distinction interest and importance, but merely bad reference to the as to how the succession arose, whether it came by one mode relations which ought to subsist between the members of or another. The noble earl (Derby) remarked on the the Greek church, who were the subjects of the Porte, and hardship of putting the tax on heirlooms ; but perhaps the holy places at J erusa l em . U n d er th a t genera l impres he was not aware of the law on that subject. There sion which obtained currency, the public mind assumed, I was no duty on heirlooms unless they cams to think I may say, an aspect of tranquillity. But it so Nap s person who was the absolute posseesor:and could turn theta pened about six weeks ago or a little more, that Col. Rose, into money. He thought he had shown that it was not who w as a t th a t ti me , in th e a b sence of Lord Stratford, our unjust to impose a legacy duty on land ; and it muet be svi- ambassador, the British minister at Constantinople—a dent that its exemption from the tax could not be lusts- gentleman of whom lam bound to say all who have been in fled. There was another point to which he would for • no- any way placed in connexion with him will bear witness, moot refer. The noble earl who made the motion had re- thit he is a man of great ability and possessing considerable fared to the hardship of persons succeeding one after knowledge of tho country in which he has been placed, another —as, for instance, it might happen that two or in a very responsible position—(bear, hear)--it so more brothers might succeed one after another, and the happened that about the period I have stated, legacy duty might be payable several times. Now there Colonel Rose suddenly felt it his duty to tele was a clause in the bill which provided that where parties graph to the British Admiral at Malta, requesting the became entitled to property by succession instead of a le- immediate presence of the British fleet at the Dardanelles, guy, then before the duty was paid four years should ii being at the same time announced that the French am elapse, so that if the possessor died within that time the bassador at Constantinople had despatched a message to the tax would be paid by his successor. French squadron at Toulon, requesting its immediate pre- Earl FITZ WILLIAM admitted that it was right that sence in the same locality. These circumstances irllME land should no longer remain exempt from taxation to diately revived the alarm that had previously been so pre which personalty was liable, and that taxation should 'relent, but those circumstances were, of course, duly con equally be applied to settled property. He should vote for sidered by her Majesty's government, and it was generally the inquiry on the ground that it would assist, not merely understood that they had, from their knowledge of the facts, their lordships, but even the government, in coming to a arrived at the opinion that there was no necessity for the sound conclusion with regard to the merits or demerits of appeal made by Colonel Rose to the British the proposition. (Hew, hear.) admiral, and the departure of the British fleet The Duke of ARGYLL said the noble earl who bad just from Malta, which, according to the instructions sat down would vote, it appeared, for the committee on given to the British admiral, could not take place without totally different grounds from those which bad been put first communicating with the authorities at home, forward by a great number of noble lords appetite ; therefore, occurred ; and the French fleet arrived in the distinctly assenting to the principle of the measure in so far vicinity f Constantinople while the English fleet remained that he was willing to extend to real property and to settled at Malta. Well, sir, the country placing a wise confidence, personalty an additional tax. The noble mover said he did as I think, in those who ars charged with the responaibi not introduce the question as a party one ; but it was impos- lilies of the high office of her Majesty's ministers on such Bible to deny that the motion was connected with those subjects, did not press the government for disclosures, and principles which were held by noble lords opposite in seemed inclined to think that the view taken by Colonel reference to the incidence of taxation on real as opposed to Rose, and upon which he had acted, in his despatch to the personal property. The loudest cheer which had been British admiral at Malta, had been somewhat preci heard in the course of the debate wu elicited by the remark pitate in its character. Shortly *forwards Lord Strat that the measure was prompted by a spirit of hostility to- ford, her Majesty's ambassador to the Porte, arrived wards the land ; and the ground on which the motion h a d a t Constantinople, which he found the Russian been supported by several speakers was that of the abstr a ct Ambass a dor Extraordinary had not yet quitted ; injustice of extending the succession tax to real property. and the question of the holy places was still the subject of (Hear, hear.) He held that it was utterly impossibl e f or nego ti a ti on , an d o f some anx i e ty, w ith th ose w h o p ave the house to judge fairly of the effect of the measure as re- their attention to the question, and who were familiar girded the landed jot' rest unless they considered it in con- with some of its details. Very recently, however, it ap nexion with all those financial measures which formed part pears that the question which at Constantinople absorbed of the budget. He must ask their lordships to recollect the interest of the representatives of the great powers, and that after the late government had acceded to office they occupied the attention of the Porte, was altogether of a threw overboard their favourite scheme of the transference different character—and that instead of its being a limited of the local rates to the consolidated fund ; and that, instead and a mere local einestion connected with the holy places at of getting rid of the income tax, they actually proposed to Jerusalem and the relations which those subjects of the resew it in an aggravated form as regarded the land. note who profess the Greek religion necessarily have with (Hear, hear.) When the present government came into these places, it was announced without any circumlocution power, they found it namely to review the whole financial , that the Ambassador Extraordinary of Russia had called position of the country. It was requisite to determi ne , no t ; upon the Porte to enter into a convention which may be de afly whether the income tax should be permanent or not, 1 scribed—not to weary the attention of tile house with detriis-- bat whether some pledge should be given to parliament as which may fairly be de.cribeil—as a convention which, if to the relinquishment of the income cam if it should be in carried into eaccution, would transfer the allegiance of the the power of the government at some future time. Let not vast majority of the subjects of the Porte in European noble lords opposite flatter themselvesthat if they had carried Turkey to the Emperor of Russia. (Hear, hear.) Well theirschema they could have evaded the question of the legacy sir, wh. n this bee ime known, considerable alarm was un duty. The :ate Chancellor of the Exchequer, after pro- deub.edlj created, and it has net, as yet, been in any way posing an allocation of the ininme-tax, whiA acted diffe- allays and and it as announced (I knave not with what au rentially as regarded land, and after abandoning his prop- thorits , ). that her Majesty's government then felt that sition with regard to local rates, wound up his statement by CUl..iisei ROM', who had applied at a previous period for the saying thas the existing legacy duties constituted a mass presence ors British farce, was justified in the course he of injustice *bid could not long remain unreformed. ruccinmende-!, and that we had sent some ships of war to (Hear, hear). After proposing a differential income-tax as Coustantinin le. I mention these circumstances in order against land— that I may place before the house as clearly as I can, with- The Earl of DERBY—The propoetion Was not that out presuming to give any opinion at present as to what has transpired. The grounds upon which 1 ♦enturc to ask for some explanation from her Majesty's government, and, having so stated the circumstances, I will now put these two questions to the noble lord. First, I wish to know whether the English ambassador and the French ausbas- sailor at Constantinople are at this moment acting in concert ..._ .... ... .. together, and, if that be the case; then I would wish to know whether there would be any difficulty en the part of ker Majesty's government in communicating to the house the general scope and tendency of the instructions which they are so in concert together fulfilling. These are the two questions which I feel it my duty to put to her Ma jesty's government, and 1 await with some interest their reply. (Hear, hear.) Lord .1. RUSSELL—Sir, 1 will communicate to the house as much information, in answer to the right hon. gentleman's questions, as it may be possible to communicate at present without injury to the public service. The right lon. gentleman has made a sta:cment, in regard to the facts which have occurred, that requires some, though not any material, corrections on my part. The facts are these : her Majesty's governmeut was informed by the govern cent of Russia that the Emperor of Russia thought it ne cessary to dispatch a special mission, under charge data am bassador extraordinary, to Constautinople, to obtain the confirmation of those concessions which bad been made at other times to the membere of the Greek church, in regard to the holy places, at Jerusalem, and we were informed at the same time that the Emperor of Russia, emeeiviog that he had occasion to complain that former concessi ins had been tither withdrawn or materially modified, by certain orders which had been issued by the Sultan in February last year, thought it necessary to require some security that those orders for the concessions, which were to be then confirmed, should not again be liable to be withdrawn ; but what the nature of those securities should be the Russian government, as is usual in diplentatie transactions, did not state specially to any foreign po xer. When the Russian Ambassador Extra ordinary aeries(' at Constantinople, certain circumstances which then occurred induced the Grand Vizier to feel considerable apprehension at what was about to take place, and lie applied to Col. Rose to ask for the presence of au English fleet at the Dardanelles. Colonel nose did not— es the right hon. gentleman has st ited—commuuicate a tele graphic meseage to Malta, but sent a steamer with des patches to the Minitel there, requesting that lie would, after reading them, pet ged with the fleet to the Dardanelles, es the Grand Vizier wished hint to do. Admiral Dundee, on receiving these d, spate:in, forwarded them to London, as it was his duty to do, stating at the same time that he would await the orders of his go vernment before he left Malta. Her Majesty's government en'irely approved of the discretion which Admiral Dundas display, il in the matter, and intimated the AMP to him ; and Colonel Rose having been informed by the Grand Vizier, within two or three days after he had sent offhis despatches ' to Malta, that there was no necessity for the English fl,et ' leaving Malta, he despatched another steam-boat with a re- ' quest to Admiral Dundas that he would not obey the in struction he had previously forwarded to him. I believe that both Admiral Dundee exercised a wise discretion, and that Colonel Rose was perfectly justified in this his second order, that the English fleet should not leave Malta. Well, the negotiations proceeded, and Lord Stratford, as the house will well believe, from his great ability, and from his long experience in diplomatic affairs, an:l from the deserved weight he has with the persons in authority in Constanti nnple,and those who are there entrusted with the missions of foreign powers, was enabled materially to assist the progress of those negotiations, and to aid Prince Menchikoff in obtaining declarations and acts which were considered sufficient by him, and to which the French Ambassador offered no material objection. It was to be supposed, and it was supposed in London and the other courts of Europe, that this question, which had been most unhappily the source of occasional difficulty and diff.ireace between the courts of Europe, and a source of discontent with the Turkish government for a long time being thus settled, that the mission of Prince Menchikoff would terminate and cease. But it so happened that the demands which, in accordance with his instructions. l'rince Menchikolf made at Constantinople were such, that although in the opinion of the Russian government they were no more than were necessary to secure the fulfilment of those negotiations in which the prince had been engaged in regard to the holy places, were in the opinion of the Turkish government, and in the opinion of her Majesty's ambassador at Constanti nople, and also in the opinion of the ambassador of the Emperor of the French, of a nature which could not but be considered dangerous to the independence of the Porte, and u infringing in some degree those stipulations to which all the powers had agreed by the treaty of 1541. With respect to what has followed, the government has no official information ,• the last dispatch received at the Foreign-office from Lord Stratford, being dated the ninth of the present month. I can, however, state that there has been the most perfect accord and union between the Ambassador of her Majesty and the Ambassador of the Emperor of the French at Constantinople, the purpose of both being to maintain the convention, which was agreed to by the Ambassadors of the great powers in the treaty of 1811. With regard to the second question, I have to say, that in the present state of the negotiation it would not be consistent with the ordinary course, or for the good of the public service that her Majesty's government should at present produce the dispatches they have sent to Lord Stratford on this subject. I can only say that they may be generally described as instructions which leave very much to his discretion ; but, at the same time impress upon him, that the policy of her Majesty's government is to maintain inviolate the in dependence and the integrity of the Porte. (Hear, hear.) I may be permitted to say farther, that though we have no very recent official informat'on, we have reason to hope that the Russian government will ultimately ask for no other securities from Turkey then such as it will he compa tible with the authority and the dignity of the Sultan, as 1 sovereign of Turkey, to grant, and which the power of the ' Turkish empire demands. (Hear.) BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. In reply to a remark from Mr. C. BERKELEY, Lord J. RUSSELL stated that government intended to follow the same course in regard to the Wednesday sittings as is former yeses—that was, to put government orders on the paper when necessary, but not to bring them on until the orders standing in the names of private members bad been th, gone through, REGISTRATION OF ASSURANCE BILL. Mr. BRIGHT stated that he had received a telegraphic message from a deputation from a number of building societies of Manchester, now on its way to Londoa, in re ference to this bill. What they wished to know was, whether, if the bill were read a second time pro forma, and it was seat to a select committee, they would be al lowed to give evidence before that committee as to the operation of the measure upon such societies as those to which they belong—that was societies which purchased small parcels of land, and built houses upon them for their own members? Lard J. RUSSELL replied that the bill in question, which had come down from the Lords, was founded on the reports of several legal commissioners, who had instituted very laborious inquiries into the whole subject. What he proposed was that the bill should be read a second time to night, and that its clauses should be afterwards suhmitted to a select committee ; after which, as the hon. gentleman was aware, it must come back and pass through a general committee of the whole house. He thought it would be inconvenient, after the inquiries which had already been goae into by persons in every way competent fur the task, that fresh evidence should be taken, but the petitions of the parties to whom the hon. gentleman hat alluded might be referred to the select committee, by whom, no doubt, they would receive full attention. Mr. BRIGHT thought it quite possible that the legal commission from whom this bill had emanated might not be aware of the peculiar circumstances of these societies— but be would communicate what the noble lord had stated to the deputation, and they would probably adopt the course the noble lord had suggested. Mr. HADFIELD intimated that he had presented a number of petitions from some hundred thousand persons connected with building societies against the bill. Mr. MULLINGS believed that the commission referred to had not None into any evidence in reference to the ope ration of this bill on mem►ers of building societies. lie thought the measure would increase the profits of solicitors at the expense of those poor persons. If the measure was pressed he should move its postponement. ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS. Mr. FLUME inquired when the bill, founded on the re port of the commission on this subject, would bo brought forward, and whether it would be introduced in the Lords or the Commons? Lord J. RUSSELL had stated, on a former occasion, that the commission appointed by the late government had made up their minds as to the general outline of the bill, but not u to the details ; and it would take probably three or four months to complete those details. THE METROPOLITAN POLICE. Lord D. STUART complained that certain returns fir which he had moved, as to the number of the members of the Metropolitan and City police who had been charged be fore the magistrates, and had been punished, had not been produced. Lord PALMERSTON said he would inquire into the matter, and lay the papers on the table as soon as possible. IRISH NEWSPAPERS. Mr. NEWDEilklEliWiire7lof the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether there was 23 per cent. difference in the stamp duty levied on Irish newspapers as compared with English papers, and if so, what reason there was for it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that it was in fact the practice to allow 25 per cent. to Irish news papers, and to charge Id. instead of Id., and the reason was that at the time of the imposition of the present stamp duty an alteration was made with regard to a privilege which the Irish newspapers had of returning unused stamps, that privilege being wii hdrawn. Mr. NEWDEOATE —Was the privilege which was with drawn enjoyed by Irish newspapers exclusively, or was it also enjoyed by Engliiih papers 1 The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I under. stand it belonged exclusively to the Irish papers. The motion for the adjournment to Monday was then agreed to. INCOME TAX BILL. The houso then went into comul.ttee on this bill. On Clause 3, Mr. NEWDEOATE was understood to inquire whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer would ohj,ct to allow cm enviers of land to have their land valued by competent 1 persons appointed by the commissioners in case they thought I themst Ives overcharged, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. had never had this point stilted to him by any one, and he was not aware that the occupiers of land felt themselves aggrieved in this respect. lie would rather not give a positive an swer without inquiry, but i.e would consider the nutter, and give the hon. gentleman an answer. Clause 4 was agreed to with amea•lments. On Clause .5, vied t u under he continuinga e t t h o s et :i ac 64 t, i a6a "Npd. acts else to ood should timpossible ascertain,s feu": what h I e t e h l eG housel lT said would this be e clausegenerally .o tf nature— p::::ant copse it meant ,uj thought, le. ,It professed to tell the house and the public rolaec; things which were not contained in it, which would re qu ire t t o hn b t e any not only t o y had laborious,achance b of practice in construing seta of parliament . It stated that o and other acts referred to which were subsequently par e , ie. ' that d: d t e h x u i p t s i l ' s:i u n w : p e e :l t l altering, l b t e h i „ e were in fact dead. Eight ;lets we re referred to begineniajg ' with 5 & 6 Vic. c. 35, and teen ten. ral others (Meowed, which were amending acts and continuing acts for three as ouyearsfntdeer and which oneincome year.tht ea payers, e w called on to Chanceller of the Exchequer had not Airier(' his accustomed habits of business and affiniidetrative ability ro, os;n g the clause as it stood. The house had long been of opinion that, instead of repeating part- of acts and revising dead ones, a measure should be complete its it s elf. The chair man of committees in :he other house had laid down such a rule with regard to private bills, and last year in the case of • the Rochdale Improvement Bills which had passed this hnuse, when it got to the other, the chairman insisted that the bill should be withdrawn, because it stated repealed acts and re-enacted parts of other arts, and gave as a reason, that the people of the town which was to be taxed, ought to know what the law under which they were taxed w e e, and he insisted that the bill should be nude omel e t e in itself. His (Mr. Bright's) right honourable colleague and himself, had insisted last year on this point with regard to the Militia Bill, and if they were now passing a bill ins praing a tax for three years (if the Chancellor of the Ex chequer had said for 19 or 90 year*, he would have been quite safe), they h el a right to have the bill complete. Ap peals and other questions might arise, which gave on every page of the inematotax, a right to have a law with a dis tinct insaning and a very little labour would effect that. He had. another objection to the bill—namely, that thin clause re-enacted the machinery of the tax. He object e d strongly to the machinery so far as the local courraissianers were concerned, and lie had stated on a former occasion a plan which would, he knew, be aitiefactory to the c mime. coal classes in the north. The local commissioners were chosen from the Land Tax Commissioners, who were sp. painted in some hocus-pocus manner at the end of every Pay thenithaTte:lll:a.o.ll.rac.l,ll..l47ir session by certain membe re, to whom some names of per sons were sent. In his district that mode of appointment cannel great dissatisfaction, and there was an iropreesien at the impartiality of the commissioners. He had ,proyosed that the local commissioners should be appointed by Veri payers of income tax ; and that the surveyor of a district should send a list to all the persons who paid income tax in the previous year, with a request that each person should place his initials opposite any number of names of persons whom he wished to bin appointed com missioners, and that list having been sent back to the surveyor, he should count the votes and publish in the Gatette or the keel papers, the commie sioners so chosen for the ensuing year or two years. He (Mr. Bright) was in favour of the income tax, and disagreed with the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to its being abolished in 1560. Ile should prefer its remaining so long as there was a single indirect tax, and what he proposed was proposed ie good faith towards the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the government, and he proposed it because he knew what was the feeling now in his own neighbour hood ; while if the local commissioners were appointed in the manner he suggested there would he a feeling in favour of the justice and impartiality of the commissioners, which was impossible under the present system. He believed also that the right hon. gentleman would find that under com missioners so selected the management would be better and the revenue greater. if there was a n y objection to his plan he should be glad to hear it from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He did not wish to move that the chairman report progress, for it was his desire tl n this measure should pass speedily ; but still he thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to give au ascor see that it' tine bill was allowed to pass in its present 'shape, he would undertake to give them a consolidated bill at an early period, and alto that he would fairly con sider the subject of the appointment of the local com missioners. By this bill there was practically no appeil to special commissioners if a return was sent in to the lota commissioners; and there ought not to be any restriction on ' appeals to the special commissioners. Ile should not maks any motion, but he felt it to be his duty to appe a l s t rong ly and earnest ly, but in no feeling of hostility, to the Chan celler of the Exchequer, to explain the views he held, and to give a pledge that he would effect a consolidation of the measure, and consider the question of a better mode of ap pointments of the local commissioners. Ile (Mr. Bright) had brought the subject forward, because he was anxious to make this measure as little irritating to the public, and so advantageous to the revenue, es possible. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not question the motives which had induced the hon. gentleman to bring forward this subject, but when he had made his explanation, the hon. gentleman would see that his criti cisms were not well founded, though his object was rational and open to consideration. 'the hon. gentleman was in error if he supposed that this was a supplemental bile, and that he was precluded from making amendments on it. This clause revived certain old acts, subject to any provisions the committee chose to introduce. So far from the bill precluding the making of amendments, the bulk of it con sisted of amendments; and it was competent to any ono to propose other amendments. The hon. gentleman said that he ought to introduce a consolidated bill, and to change the machinery under which the tax was levied. The question of consolidating the bill was to be considered in two mints of view. In the Lim plans , it was for the convenience of mem bers and persons out of the house that they should have a clear comprehension of what was going to be done ; and in the second place, there must be considered the functions which the bill had to perform as a ways and mcnns act for the revenue of the Tear, and the time in which it was neces sary that it should be passed. With regard to nu mbere of the house, it was more fur their convenience that they should see the new enactments standing by themselves. If he had introduced a bill with 250 old and 50 new clauses, what would have been the condition of gentlemen who bad to master it, and lie would have been told that he had brought in a bill with the whole law instead of with the new enactments, and that they were so mixed up with old matter that they did not know what was to be done. The plan he had adopted was not only his own opinion, but was founded on authority and general practice. Besides this time precluded the intro duction of such a bill, if he were to get a bill the functions of which were to raise a tax to be paid into the Exchequer within a certain period. When the government came into office in January, they had to consider the principles of the tax, and all its structure was to be examined. They had to take time to do that, and they could not in justice to the house have delayed the measure for two or three months longer till a consolidated bill was drawee. They would not then have called in the Solicitor to the Board of Inland Revenue to begin to prepare such a bill. The hon. gen tleman might perhaps think that the Solicitor of Inland Revenue could have drawn a consolidated bill in twenty four hours, but practice and experience was against any such notion. The hon. gentleman also said that the machinery of the tax !should be changed, end he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) must say that his demand was a reasonable one; for there was much of the machinery which required eon sideration, and which had been productive of discontent. He believed, however, that some discontent was caused by its not being generally known that there was a power of referring assessments to special commissioners instead of local commissioners. lie admitted that it was open to the hon. gentleman to urge that amendments should be made with regard to the local commissioners ; but the hon. gen tleman was not aware of the difficulty and complexity of the subject. The hon. gentleman said that lists should be circulated among those who paid income tax last year, and to allow those who had been ussued to vote for the ap pointment of commissioners. There were many diffi culties in such a plan. One was that neither the commissioners, nor the state, nor any one else knew who had paid income tax in the last year. That might be known In schedule B, but not in schedules C or D. Would the honourable gentleman then have Commitm • sioners for each schedule, with separate offices, and double and treble organisation and machinery. Another difficulty was that it was a very serious matter to send round a list to all who bad paid lucerne tax last year, as it would tend to expose to every man's neighbours all particulars relating to his payment of or exemption from the tax. The hon. gentleman might say that no one had a right to object to this publicity, but the principle on which the tax had always been levied was the observance of secrecy. The difficulty with regard to the new machinery was the same as that which applied to the consolidation of the act; namely that if you got the machinery could you go to work and make assessments. If you dispensed with the present boards there must be an interval before others were appointed and the assessments made, and there would be delay in the levying of the tax ; and as he (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer) had promised that there should be a sum of six millions in the exchequer before the sith of April next, it was only on the supposition that he should get the law to as to be able to go to work at ones, and if the hon, gentleman insisted on a new hill being introduced he could not s•et the six millions by that time. Besides, the sth July would pass before it came into operation, and the dividends due then would pass without payment. With regard to the cemoli dation of these various acts, he admitted the desirability ; but the difficulty was great, and, though he would held out the hope, he would make no pledge. Mr. BRIGHT was satisfied that any person of ordinary brains could effect a consolidation of these sets by 48 hours' labour. With regard to the secrecy necessary, It was well known that at present there was little or no practical se crecy, the returns made by persons uirer the income tax constantly turning up in the most unexpected places; and he had not asked thet every man's asseument should be printed, but that there should he such lists as would suffice for guidance as to rating purposes. The right hon. gentle man was hound to attempt something in the way of Cv/Weii. dation by next session. The opinions of the judges had been given that his was not framed as an act of parliament should he, and it was unquestioueely enconstitutional to tax men by acts which the y could net comprehend. Mr. HAMILTON had given much attention to this sub ject since the boase had, in effect, eleciOcel on the extension of the income tax to Ireland; and he was sure that there ought to be a special bid fur Iceland, the use of words which were net at all applicable to circumstances in Ireland being likely to occasion the greatest confusion and diffi culty. (Hear ' hear.) lie wished to know whether land owners in Ireland would be able under this bill to deduct the interest on rumegages and l: ads generally ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER answered in the affirmative. He could s--tire the hon. gentleman I that the government had considered the difficulty carefully, j and had come *e a c mclueeen against a separate system or bill for Ireland. Mr..L G. PHI:A.I:4OIM e %).restvl a strong objection with re,peet to the loose and slovenly way in %hies this bill bad I apparent be the ea Sir F. Ireland , t a x cu Ir The C that, if we ssud Sir 1 pay the I Cele?! 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