Ramses II - EgyptSearch Forums

Curious if the board discussed this last year...if so could someone point me to that thread?
Thanx
Redheaded Pharaoh Ramses II 28 February 2006 Pharaoh Ramses II (of the 19th Dynasty), is generally considered to be the most powerful and influential King that ever reigned in Egypt. He is one of the few rulers who has earned the epithet "the Great". Subsequently, his racial origins are of extreme interest.
In 1975, the Egyptian government allowed the French to take Ramesses mummy to Paris for conservation work. Numerous other tests were performed, to determine Ramses precise racial affinities, largely because the Senegalese scholar Cheikh Anta Diop, was claiming at the time that Ramesses was black. Once the work had been completed, the mummy was returned in a hermetically sealed casket, and it has remained largely hidden from public view ever since, concealed in the bowels of the Cairo Museum. The results of the study were published in a lavishly illustrated work, which was edited by L. Balout, C. Roubet and C. Desroches-Noblecourt, and was titled La Momie de Ramsès II: Contribution Scientifique à lÉgyptologie (1985).
Professor P. F. Ceccaldi, with a research team behind him, studied some hairs which were removed from the mummys scalp. Ramesses II was 90 years-old when he died, and his hair had turned white. Ceccaldi determined that the reddish-yellow colour of the mummys hair had been brought about by its being dyed with a dilute henna solution; it proved to be an example of the cosmetic attentions of the embalmers. However, traces of the hairs original colour (in youth), remain in the roots, even into advanced old age. Microscopic examinations proved that the hair roots contained traces of natural red pigments, and that therefore, during his youth, Ramses II had been red-haired. It was concluded that these red pigments did not result from the hair somehow fading, or otherwise altering post-mortem, but did indeed represent Ramses natural hair colour. Ceccaldi also studied a cross-section of the hairs, and he determined from their oval shape, that Ramesses had been "cymotrich" (wavy-haired). Finally, he stated that such a combination of features showed that Ramesses had been a "leucoderm" (white-skinned person). [Balout, et al. (1985) 254-257.]
Balout and Roubet were under no illusions as to the significance of this discovery, and they concluded as follows:
"After having achieved this immense work, an important scientific conclusion remains to be drawn: the anthropological study and the microscopic analysis of hair, carried out by four laboratories: Judiciary Medecine (Professor Ceccaldi), Société LOréal, Atomic Energy Commission, and Institut Textile de France showed that Ramses II was a leucoderm, that is a fair-skinned man, near to the Prehistoric and Antiquity Mediterraneans, or briefly, of the Berber of Africa." Balout, et al. (1985) 383.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on 22. August 200710:30 AM:
Click the search button at the top of the page and type in Ramses II or blonde.
Posted by Obenga (Member # 1790) on 22. August 200710:45 AM:
Thanx
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on 22. August 200712:20 PM:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Click the search button at the top of the page and type in Ramses II or blonde.
Yes, please! There are like 6 or 7 topics of that title already! Thank God for the search engine. Posted by Punos_Rey (Member # 21929) on 16. February 201512:11 AM:
Sorry to necro such an old thread guys, but I'd rather do that then create yet another Ramses II thread. Has there been any new studies recently on the mummy of Ramses II? I'm just really curious to know what new information has been found about him, especially genetics wise or involving his hair color.
*I had sworn off this forum after my last few run ins with Tukuler but this topic has grabbed hold of my interest so had to ask the members here)
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on 16. February 201512:26 AM:
oh snap
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on 16. February 201510:29 AM:
Even people who make no informative contributions are entitled to their opinions and are welcome to bump threads of their interest and ask questions already beaten to death.
quote:Originally posted by ausar: Even people who make no informative contributions are entitled to their opinions and are welcome to bump threads of their interest and ask questions already beaten to death.
- Tukuler al~Takruri, the ardo -
A recap is shown below for the new readers. But does anyone have any info on the Hebrews copying or using Egyptian hair styles? Ran across this blurb the other day:
Pirqe R. El. 46 refers to the earrings worn by male Israelites "according to the fashion of the Egyptians." Joseph's elaborate hair-style was subjected to the hermeneutics of midrash and it became an Egyptian hair-style in the view of the rabbis.
--Egyptian Cultural Icons in Midrash, Volume 23 By Rivka Ulmer
The book then goes on to detail Rabinnic commentary on how Joseph copied aspects of Egyptian hair styles and other fashions. Any details on the Hebrews and hair? What bout the Egyptians copying Nubian mercenary hairstyles?
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RECAP - THE HAIR THING
Ancient Egyptian hair
Across the web assorted "biodiversity" proponents, wage a 'racial war' using hair studies of ancient Egyptians to prove a "Caucasian Egypt". But in fact the hair of Africans is highly variable, debunking their simplistic claims.
The hair of Africans is highly variable, ranging from tight curls of South African Bantu, to the loose curls and straight hair of peoples of East and NE Africa, all indigenously evolved over millennia as part of Africas high genetic diversity. This diversity undermines and ultimately dismisses simplistic "racial" claims based on hair.
Inconsistencies of the skewed "true negro" model and definitions of African hair
Dubious assertions, double standards and outmoded racial hair claims: Czech anthropologist Strouhal's 1971 study touched on hair, and advanced the most extreme racial definitions, claiming Nubians to be white Europids overrun by later waves of Negroes, and that few Negroes appeared in Egypt until the New Kingdom. Indeed, Strouhal went so far as to argue that 'Negroes' failed to survive long in Egypt, because they were ill-adapted to its arid climate! Tell that to the Saharans, Sudanese and Nubians! Such dubious claims have been thoroughly debunked by modern scholarship, however they continue in various guises by those who attempt to use "hair" to assign race 'percents' and categories to the ancients. Attempts to define racial categories based on the ancient hair rely heavily on extreme definitions, with "Negroids" typically being defined as narrowly as possible. Everything not meeting the extreme "type" is then classified as something else, such as "Caucasian".
Kieta (1990, Studies of Crania from Northern Africa) notes that while many scholars in the field have used an extreme "true negro" definition for African peoples, few have attempted to apply the same model in reverse and define a "true white." Such racial double standards are typical of much scholarship on the ancient Nile Valley peoples. A consistent approach for example would define the straight hair in Strouhal's hair sample as an exclusive Caucasian marker (10 out of 49 or approximately 20%) and make the rest (wavy and curled) hybrid or negro, at >80%. Assorted writers who support the Aryan race percent model however, are careful to avoid such consistency and typically only run the comparison one way.
QUOTE: "Strouhal (1971) microscopically examined some hair which had been preserved on a Badarian skull. The analysis was interpreted as suggesting a stereotypical tropical African-European hybrid (mulatto). However this hair is grossly no different from that of Fulani, some Kanuri, or Somali and does not require a gene flow explanation any more than curly hair in Greece necessarily does. Extremely "wooly" hair is not the only kind native to tropical Africa.." (S. O. Y. Keita. (1993). "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54)
Disturbing attempts to use hair to prove race theories: Fletcher (2002) in Egyptian Hair and Wigs, gives an example of what she calls "disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender" involving 1800s European researcher F. Petrie, who sometimes sought to use excavation reports to prove his theories of Aegean settlers flowing into Egypt. Such disturbing attempts continue today in the use of hair for race category or percentage claims involving the ancient peoples, such as the "racial" analysis seen on several Internet blogs and websites, some thinly disguised fronts for neo-nazi groups or sympathizers.
Hair study applied a stereotyped "true negro" model and used late period samples of Egypt, after the coming of Greeks, Hyskos, etc as "representative" excluding the previous 2500 years of ancient civilization. A study of the hair of Egyptian mummies by Czech anthropologists Titlbachova and Titllbach (1977) (reported in Strouhal 1977) using only late period samples found a wide range of hair in mummies. Of the 14 samples, only 4 were from the south of Egypt, and none of the 14 samples were earlier than the 18th Dynasty. Essentially the previous 2,000 years + of Egyptain civilization and peopling are not represented. Only the narrowest definition is used to identify 'true negro' types'. All other intermediate types were deemed 'non-negroid.' If a similar procedure is used in reverse and designates only straight hair as a marker of a European, then only 4 out of 14 or 29% of the samples can be deemed "Caucasoid." Below is a breakdown of the Czech data:
Using modern technology, the same Aryan Race models are undercut with the data actually showing that Egyptians group closer to Africans than vaunted white Nordics.
[1]"Nordic hair measurements"[/i]
Neo-Nazis and sympathizers tout the work of German researcher Pruner-Bey in the 1800s which derived racial indexes of hair including Negroes, Egyptians and Germans. Germanic hair is closer to that of the Egyptians they assert. But is it as they claim?
Using hair for race identification as older research does can be shaky, but even when used, it undercuts Aryan clams as shown above.
Fletcher 2002 decries "disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender..
Environmental factors can influence hair color, and the Egyptians routinely placed hair from different sources in mummy wrappings, making claims of "Nordic-haired" or "white" Egyptians dubious.
Mummification practices and dyeing of hair. Hair studies of mummies note that color is often influenced by environmental factors at burial sites. Brothwell and Spearman (1963) point out that reddish-brown ancient color hair is usually the result of partial oxidation of the melanin pigment. Other causes of hair color "blonding" involve bleaching, caused by the alkaline in the mummification process. Color also varies due to the Egyptian practice of dyeing hair with henna. Other samples show individuals lightening the hair using vegetable colorants. Thus variations in hair color among mummies do not necessarily suggest the presence of blond or red-haired Europeans or Near Easterners flitting about Egypt before being mummified, but the influence of environmental factors.
Egyptian practice of putting locks of hair in mummy wrappings. Racial analysis is also made problematic by the Egyptian practice of burying hair, in many "votive or funerary deposits buried separately from the body, a practice found from Predynastic to Roman times despite its frequent omission from excavation reports." (Fletcher 2002) In examining hair samples Fletcher (2004) notes that care is needed to determine what is natural scalp hair, versus hair from a wig, versus hair extensions to natural locks. Tracking the exact source of hair is also critical since the Egyptians were known to have placed locks of hair from different sources among mummy wrappings. (The Search for Nefertiti, By Joann Fletcher, HarperCollins, 2004, p. 93-94, 96)
Egyptians shaved much of their natural hair off and used wigs extensively as covering, obtaining much of the hair for wigs through trade. Discoveries" of "Aryan" or 'Nordic" hair are thus hardly 'proof' of incoming Caucasoids, but may be simply hair purchased from some source and made into a wig. This is much less dramatic than the exciting picture of inflowing 'Aryan' hordes.
The ancient Egyptians shaved off much of their own natural hair as a matter of personal hygiene and custom, and wore wigs in public. According to the Encyclopedia of body adornment (Margo DeMello, 2007, Greenwood Publishing Group, p. 101), "Boys and girls until puberty wore their hair shaved except for a side locl left on the side of their head. Many adults- both men and women- also shaved their hair as a way of coping with heat and lice. However, adults did not go about bald, and instead wore wigs in public and in private.. Wigs were initially worn by the elites, but later worn by women of all classes.."
The widespread use of wigs in ancient Egypt thus complicates and contradicts attempts at 'racial' analysis. Fletcher (2002) shows that many Egyptian wigs have been found with what is defined as straighter 'cynotrichous' hair. This however is hardly a marker of massive European or Near Eastern presence or admixture. Fletcher notes that the Egyptians often eschewed their own personal hair, shaving carefully and using wigs widely. The hair for these wigs was often obtained through trade. Indeed, "hair itself being a valuable commodity ranked alongside gold and incense in account lists from the town of Kahun." Image gallery | Articles | Google
Egyptian trading links with other regions is well known, and a commodity like straighter 'cynotrichous' hair could have been easily obtained via the Sahara, Levant, the Maghreb, Mediterranean contacts, or even the hair of Asiatic war captives or casualties from Egypt's numerous conflicts. There is little need to postulate mass influxes of European admixtures or populations to account for hair types in wigs. The limb proportion studies of the ancient Egyptians showing them to be much more related to tropical types than to Europids, is further demonstration of the fallacy of using hair as 'proof' of a 'Aryan' or predominantly European admixed Egypt.
Nubian wigs and wigs in Egypt
Such exchanges or use of hair appear elsewhere in the Nile valley. Tomb finds show Nubians themselves wearing wigs of straight hair. But one Nubian from the Royal valley, of the 12th century, named Maherpra, was found to be wearing a wig himself, made up of tightly curled 'negroid' hair, on top of his natural covering (Fletcher 2002). The so-called "Nubian wig" also appears in Egyptian art relief's depicting daily life, a stylistic arrangement thought to imitate those found in southern Egypt or Nubia. Such wigs appear to have been popular with both Egyptians and Nubians. Fletcher 2004 notes that the famous queen Nefertiti made frequent use of the Nubian wig: "Nefertiti and her daughter seem to have set a trend for wearing the Nubian wig.. a coiffure first worn by Nubian mercenaries and clearly associated with the military." A detail of a wall scene in Theban tomb TT.55 shows the queen wearing the Nubian wig. Infantrymen from the Nubia. Note both bow and battle-axe carried into combat.
Hair studies of Nubians have also been undertaken. One study at Semna, in Nubia (Daniel Hrdy 1978- Analysis of Hair Samples of Mummies from Semna South, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, (1978) 49: 277-262), found curling patterns intermediate between Northwest European and African samples. The X-group, especially males, showed more African elements than the Meroitic in the curling variables. Crimping and curvature data patterned in a northwest Europe direction. These data plots however do not necessarily indicate race admixture or percentages, or the presence of European migrants or colonists (see Keita 2005 below), but rather a data pattern of variation in how hair curls, and native African diversity which cases substantial overlap with non-African groups. This is a routine occurrence within human groups.
Africa has the highest phenotypic variation, just as it has the highest geentic variation- accommodating a wide range of features for its peoples without the need for any "race mix: Relethford (2001) shows that ".. methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies." (Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636) Hanihara 2003 notes that [significant] "..intraregional diversity are present in Subsaharan Africans.." While ancient Egypt had gene flow in various eras, hair variations easily fall under this pattern of built-in, indigenous diversity, as well as the above noted cultural practice of using wigs with hair from different places obtained through trade.
Among Europeans for example, some people have curlier hair and some have straighter hair than others. Various peoples of East and West Africa also have narrow noses, which are different from other peoples elsewhere in Africa, nevertheless they still remain Africans. DNA studies also note greater variation within selected populations that without. Since Africa has the highest genetic diversity in the world, such routine variation in characteristics such as hair need not indicate any racial percentage or admixture, but simply part of the built-in genetic diversity of the ancient peoples on the continent. Indeed, the Semna study author notes that blondism, especially in young children, is common in many dark-haired populations (e.g., Australian, Melanesian), and is still found in some Nubian villages. As regards hair color variation, reddish type hair is associated with the presence of pheomelanin, which can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well. See "Rameses" below. Albinism is another source of red hair.
Dubious attempts at 'racial analysis' using Nubian hair and crania. Assorted supporters of the stereotypical Aryan 'race' model attempt to use hair to argue for a predominantly 'white' Nubia. But as noted above, such attempts are dubious given built-in African genetic diversity. Often 'racial' hair claims attempt to link on with cranial studies purporting to match ancient Nubians with Swedes, Frenchmen, etc. But such claims are also dubious. In a detailed analysis of the Fordisc computer program used to put forward such claims, Williams, Armelagos, et al. (2005) found that the program created ludicrous "matches" between the ancient Nubian crania and peoples from Hungary, Japan, Easter Island and a host of others in far-flung regions! Their conclusion was that the diversity of human populations in the databank explained such wide ranging matches. Such objective mainstream analyses debunk obsolete and improbable claims of 'racial' migrations of alleged Frenchman, Hungarians, or other whites into ancient Nubia, or equally improbable racial 'percentages' supposedly quantifying such claims. (Frank l'engle Williams, Robert L. Belcher, and George J . Armelagos, "Forensic Misclassification of Ancient Nubian Crania: Implications for Assumptions about Human Variation," Current Anthropology, volume 46 (2005), pages 340-346)
Alleged massive influx of Europeans and Middle Easterners to give the ancient peoples hair variation did not happen. Such variation was already in place as part of Africa' built in genetic and phenotypic diversity. As regards diameter, the average diameter of the Semna sample was close to both the Northwest European and East African samples. This again suggests a range of built-in African indigenous variability, and calls into questions various migration theories to the Nile Valley. One study for example (Keita 2005) tested the model of C. Loring Brace (1993) as to the notion of incoming European migrants replacing indigenous peoples of the Nile Valley. Brace's work had also suggested a relationship between northwest Europeans such as Scandanavians and African peoples of the Horn. Data analysis failed to support this model, instead clustering samples much closer to African series than to Europeans. Keita concluded that similarities between African data in his survey (skulls, etc) and non-Africans was not due to gene flow, but a subset of built-in African variability.
Ancient Egyptians cluster much closer to other Egyptians and Nubians. A later study by Brace, (Brace 2005- The questionable contribution..) groups ancient Egyptian populations like the Naqada closer to Nubians and Somalis than European, Mediterranean or Middle Eastern populations, and places various Nubians samples closer to Tanzanian, Dahomeian, and Congoid data points than to Europeans and Middle easterners. The limb proportion studies of Zakrzewski (2003) (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.) showing the tropical body plan of the ancient Egyptians also undercuts theories of inflowing European or near Eastern colonists, or the 'native Europid' model of Strouhal (1971).
The yellowish-red-hair of Rameses: proof of a Nordic Egypt?
Red hair itself is within the range of African diversity or that of dark-skinned peoples. Native black Australoids for example routinely produce blonde hair:
Detailed microscopic analysis during the 1980s (Balout 1985) identified some of the hair of Egyptian Pharoah Rameses II as being a yellowish-red. Such a finding should not be surprising given the wide range of physical variability in Africa, the most genetically diverse region on earth, out of which flowed other population groups. Indeed, blondism and various other hair shades are not unknown in East Africa or Nubia, particularly in children, nor are such hair color variants uncommon in dark-haired or dark skinned populations like the Australians. (Hrdy 1978) Given the range of genetic variability in Africa, a red-haired Rameses is hardly unusual. Rameses' reign, in the 19th Dynasty, came over 1,500 years after the Egyptian state had been established, and after the Hyskos interlude. Such latecomers to Egypt, like the Hyskos, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs etc would add their own genetic strands to the nations mix. Whatever the blend of genes that occurred with Rameses, his hair offers little supposed "proof" of a "white" or "Nordic" Egypt. If anything, X-rays of the royal mummies from earlier Dynasties by mainstream scientists show that the Egyptians pharaohs and other royals had varied 'Negroid' leanings. See X-Rays of the Royal mummies here, or here.
Pheomelanin and Rameses- found in light and dark-haired populations: The finding of Rameses red hair also deserves further scrutiny. The analysis found evidence of dyeing to make the hair yellowish-red, but some elements were untouched by the dye. These elements of yellowish-red hair in Balouts study, were established on the basis of the presence of pheomelanin, a red-brown polymeric pigment in the skin and hair of humans. However, pheomelanin can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well, which gives it a reddish hue. Most natural melanins contain sulfur, which is typically associated with pheomelanin. In scientific tests of melanin, black hair contained as much as 5% sulfur, 3% lower than the 8.8% found in Irish red hair, but exceeding the 2.3% found in Scandinavian blond hair. (Jolles, et al. 1996) Thus the yellowish-red hair discovered on Rameses is well within the range of human variation for dark haired people, whatever the exact gene combination that led to the condition.
Rameses hair was not a typical European red, but yellowish-red, within African variation. It was also not ultra straight, further undermining claims of "Nordic" influence. Somalians and Ethiopians are SUB-SAHARANS and they routinely produce straight-haired people without the need for any "race mix" to explain why. The analysis on Rameses also did not show classic "European" red hair but hair of a light red to yellowish tinge. Black haired or dark-skinned populations are quite capable of producing such yellowish-red color variants on their own, as can be seen in today's east and northeast Africa (see child's photo above). Nor is such color variation unusual to Africa. Native dark-skinned populations in Australia, routinely produce people with blond or reddish hair. As noted above, ultra diverse Africa is the original source of such variation.
The analysis also found the hair to be cymotrich or wavy, again a characteristic quite within the range of overall African or Nile valley physical and genetic diversity. A "pure" Nordic type of straight hair was thus not established for Rameses. Hence the notion of white Europeans or red-headed Caucasoids from other areas flowing into ancient Egypt to add hair variation, particularly the early centuries of the dynastic state is unlikely. Such flows may have occurred most heavily in the Greek and Roman era but say nothing about the thousands of years preceding. The presence of pheomelanin conditions or other genetic combinations also explains how the different hair used in Egyptian wigs could vary in color, aside from environmental oxidation, bleaching and dyeing.
Red hair is rare worldwide, and history shows little evidence of Northern Europeans or "Nordics" sweeping into Egypt to give the natives a bit of hair coloring or variation. Most red hair is found in northern and western Europe, especially in the British Isles, and even then it appears in minor frequencies in Europe- some 4% of the population. It is unlikely such populations had any major contact or influence in the ancient Nile Valley. As noted above, red hair is comparatively rare in the worlds populations and pheomelanin conditions are found in dark-haired populations, and thus is well within the range of variation from the Sahara, East Africa and the Nile valley. White Aryan theories of Egypt are seen in the works of HFK Gunther (1927), Archibald Sayce (1925) and Raymond Dart (1939), and still find traction on a number of 'Aryan', neo-nazi and "race" websites and blogs which purport to show a "white Nordic Egypt" using Rameses' "red" hair as an example. Today's scientific research however, has debunked these dubious views, showing that red hair, while not common world wide, is a well known variant within human populations, even those with dark hair.
Straight or curly hair is also routine among sub-Saharans like Somalians, who are firmly part of the East African populations. As regards Somalians for example, Somali DNA overwhelmingly links much more heavily with other Africans including Kenyans & Ethiopians (85%), than with Europeans & Middle Easterners. (15%) On Y-chromosome markers (E3b1), Somalis (77%) and other African populations dwarf small European (5.1%) or Middle Eastern (6.3%) frequencies. The data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population.. (Sanchez et al., High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages.. in Somali males (2005)
As one mainstream researcher notes about the dubious value of "racial" hair analysis:
"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable". --Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on 16. February 201510:41 PM:
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Somalians and Ethiopians are SUB-SAHARANS and they routinely produce straight-haired people without the need for any "race mix" to explain why.
If Africa has the highest phenotypic and genetic variation, that doesn't prove the above
or that Somalians and Ethiopians are exclusively of African or Sub Saharan African ancestry
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on 17. February 201504:17 PM:
Zarahan why bother in this thread?
A new tacticed troll onslaught has been launched.
You could make a brand new thread and leave anti-Afrikan haters. Why? Obviously the reviver of the thread could've followed DougM's lead or could've bumped up one of the latest Red Ramses threads which I can't image going unknown to him who could find this 8 year mouldie oldie informationless thread.
A new troll onslaught has been launched.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on 17. February 201504:32 PM:
Me, fixate on noses?
You've never seen me how do you know what kind of nose or hair I have?
You're obsessed with physical features and want to project that onto me.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on 17. February 201505:05 PM:
Gimme a break kid. I, am not the forum You accused me
Why though do you, Zaharan etc., identify/fixate with these features
There are noses, lips, and hair combos that white north&northwest Euros have that no indigenous African has, big deal.
Got anything positive or original to contribute? No, eh? That's what I thought.
DISMISSED (step aside)!!
NEXT (in line please)!!
Got no time for deniers of all the data, especially when PCA charted, that clearly shows an African vs Eurasian (or stayed in Africa vs left Africa only remnants remain) GENERAL assignment of humanity that can be displayed in both clines and clusters along the cline.
You see it's not clines vs clusters Each tells its own factual suggestions Attention must be paid to both that is if one really wants the 'whole' story.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on 17. February 201505:26 PM:
If you only care for tL's comments better do it by PM. This is a public forum that all are invited to post to.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on 17. February 201506:14 PM:
Yeah OK Have it your way
Enough people have already tried to school you I'm not wasting my time.
Really only chimed in to set you straight about my thought on facial features.
Again you have never read me say a word about HBD because I'm not a blog hopper. You can't even get your people straight, boy.
African populations will naturally vary from Asian populations or European populations or Oceania populations or American populations or ________.
Not only are there AIMS and other population even sub- population genetic biological indicators, ye ole mode one mod one eyeball reveal both clines and cluster as in old school physical anthropology and forensic human identification.
But my job is not to convince you. I leave that to the debaters. I'm into discussion with rational folk basing themselves on critical analysis of reviews, reports, books, articles, etc. not with people who deny PCAs and other reputable visuals of raw or processed data.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on 17. February 201506:55 PM:
quote:Originally posted by Dead:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Somalians and Ethiopians are SUB-SAHARANS and they routinely produce straight-haired people without the need for any "race mix" to explain why.
If Africa has the highest phenotypic and genetic variation, that doesn't prove the above
or that Somalians and Ethiopians are exclusively of African or Sub Saharan African ancestry
They have highest mean phenotypic variation. But it isn't uniformly spread. Most Somalis are narrow nosed, but like I said West Africans are only 2% leptorrine. Instead Zaharan will ignore this and try to "pool" himself with narrow nosed Somalis, when he looks nothing like them.
None of the "black" posters here are Somalis, so I don't get their obsession with narrow noses (or wavy hair). I have been here 5/6 years, the same obsession continues. Go look in the other section and others posters there fixate with straight hair too. Do you have an explanation for this?
Yes I have an explantion. People have African descent feel they have a greater similarity to one another genetically, culturally, historically than they do with people outside the continent. You have admitted to not knowing that much about genetics (probably wilful) such as SNP, STR , autosomal chromosomes, haplotypes etc The "obsession" is of people of Africna descent trying to maintain unity and not be exploited by people from foreign colonization and manipulations. It is called the survival instinct not to be dictated to by other world powers and corporate interests. It is called Pan Africanism and it is nothing more than a desire for coalitions like the EU or Nato, etc
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on 17. February 201507:49 PM:
This is EGYPTOLOGY you don't call me a retard just because you disagree with me -- your posts are outta here.
Go post n ANCIENT EGYPT where people are just as sophomoric as you and revel in speaking insultingly.
Now go ahead and use your juice with Sami to axe me. Go ahead.
I don't moderate this forum on behalf of Sami.
I do it for lovers of Egyptology and African Studies who want a sane adult place to discuss things. If no such folk here why am I wasting my time and effort on some thing I do not own nor make any money off of?
No matter how fair I try to be to certain members who have it in for me they return my deference with contumely and I'm damned tired of it. YOU wll be my example.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] This is EGYPTOLOGY you don't call me a retard just because you disagree with me -- your posts are outta here.
If you can call me a "stupid twit" and KING a "fake ass Xian " who is "slobbering on Clyde's nuts" then why can't you be called a retard?
I'll wait.....
who watching the watcher ?
.
Posted by Punos_Rey (Member # 21929) on 23. February 201509:16 PM:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Zarahan why bother in this thread?
A new tacticed troll onslaught has been launched.
You could make a brand new thread and leave anti-Afrikan haters. Why? Obviously the reviver of the thread could've followed DougM's lead or could've bumped up one of the latest Red Ramses threads which I can't image going unknown to him who could find this 8 year mouldie oldie informationless thread.
A new troll onslaught has been launched.
I did a search, and picked a Ramses II thread at random rather than create a whole new one. I'm sorry for picking the wrong one to necro, you snaggle-toothed jackal.
Thank you for letting me know you've been watching me get dressed, hope you liked viewing my equipment, considering that you're an expert on it.
@Enrique, thanks for the follow up, I was wondering if there had been any more recent/updated studies done on the hair?
Posted by Snakepit1 (Member # 21736) on 24. February 201504:20 PM:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^ Nice Punos but the artist, in my opinion has the skin tone too light in the finshed version below assuming the ancient art is accurate
Ramesses II Reconstruction by Caroline Wilkinson 2004
That "reconstruction" is HIGHLY INACCURATE considering the fact that Ramesses II's father, Seti I is still "dark as night" --->