Ruling for Limited Telepathy - paizo.com - Forums: Rules Questions

So I am running into a few situations. How does Limited Telepathy work for these:
Set the scene: Group of 10 people. 2 Shirrens, 2 Lashuntas, and 6 mixed races. All in a small circle.
1. Shirren #1 wants to talk to Shirren #2. Does anyone else hear? They can talk back and forth telepathically.
2. Shirren #1 wants to talk to Human #1. Can the Human telepathically talk back? Or do they need talk out loud?
3. Shirren #1 wants to talk to Lashuntas #1 and Human #1. Can he direct the communication to just 2 individuals? Can they both hear? (along with question 2) can they talk back? Do they hear each other? I assume if the human can communicate back it would only be to Shirren #1, Lashuntas #1 would not hear.
4. Shirren #1 wants to talk to the whole group. Can he send a message to the whole group, similar to saying something out loud that the group can hear?
The language of the ability is a bit open for interprotation.
Quote:
Shirrens can communicate telepathically with any creatures within 30 feet with whom they share a language. Conversing telepathically with multiple creatures simultaneously is just as difficult as listening to multiple people speak.
The words that trip me up are:
Communicate: Does this mean 1 way or 2 way communication?
Any: It does not say 'all' creatures. In programming any means 1 or more. So the idea of talking to 1, 2 out of 10, or all 10 would all be valid.
I get the idea of parallel communication being difficult, I am just thinking about a Shirren in a group talking. I assume a Shirren can speak out loud if needed, but much prefers using its Telepathy.
Thoughts?
#2 I would say they can talk back, communicate indicates to me conversation, or they could have just said that the user can talk telepathically.
#3 again I see no real reason why not. And while it's a bit vague I'd probably say that all can "hear" each other, though this last is motivated as much by table convenience as anything else.
#4 I would say so, though with that many people he's likely to tire sooner rather that later, just as I'd expect someone talking loud enough to be heard by a room of ten people to tire out more quickly.
There's no rules about this definitively. Pathfinder has similar language for telepathy and some published APs treat telepathy as two ways and even able to go through walls without line of sight or effect.
You can mentally communicate with any other creature within 100 feet that has a language. It is possible to address multiple creatures at once telepathically, although maintaining a telepathic conversation with more than one creature at a time is just as difficult as speaking and listening to multiple people simultaneously. You can’t use telepathy to locate creatures to communicate with them, but once you’ve established telepathic communication, you don’t require line of effect to maintain it.
This clearly talks about 'conversations' and it doesn't specify that you contact 'telepathic beings' so I think it does establish a 2-way communication.
I'd really like a ton more clarification about how this ability works. Apparently, two of the seven major races use this as their major form of communication. It's a key part of how the setting works, and it should be absolutely clear how it works.
I think the question of how "secure" it is, and how interactions with non-telepaths work are the main issues.
Other questions:
1. Can telepathic communication travel through wall/barriers?
2. Can non-telepaths "think at" a telepath to intentionally start a conversation? Does this require LoS/LoE?
I'm toying with a Lashunta with 180' telepathy, but really have not idea how useful that would be, or what it would even mean.
As I'm running a limited telepath (Lashunta) character, these are urgent questions. Until there is an official statement, these will be things that each table/PBP game will have to establish.
I guess my take on the question is whether telepathy is best understand to work the same as sonic communication or is it best understood in terms of modern cell phone and Internet communication.
If it is sonic based, then when my lashunta PC wants to communicate telepathically, everyone in 30 feet can hear and presumably think back replies. There is no possibility of limiting who hears and who doesn't.
If this is the case, the chief question to resolve is whether non-telepaths who reply mentally to the initial broadcast can be heard by other non-telepaths; my assumption would be that they cannot, but that if another telepath is in range, he can 'hear' whatever is broadcast in reply to the first message.
The other important clarification to the sonic analogy is whether a person, telepath or non-, can choose to block out receiving telepathic messages. This opens up other questions such as could a telepath try to overcome blockages, perhaps forcing the receiver to make a save in order to block the communication.
If it is like our modern communications with cell phones and the like, then it is possible for my telepath to "open a line" between herself and someone within range and they can communicate but no one else, even other telepaths, can 'listen in' unless they cast a spell like detect thoughts. If so, then it seems reasonable that multiple parties can be involved, like a conference call.
If multiple parties are in such a telepathic 'conference call' then questions will arise as to whether one needs to have at least limited telepathy to hear the communications into the call by non-telepaths. In other words, one would assume any telepath can 'hear' the communicated thoughts of any one connected, but could non-telepath A think a thought to the group and could non-telepath B also in on the call 'hear' A's message. If not, it implies telepaths will have to repeat what a non-telepath says so other non-telepaths will know what was said.
As before, could someone who did not want to receive a communication from a telepath block the call? If it is like cell phones and instant messaging, the receiver would get some kind of 'ping' indicating a call is incoming but he would not need to pick up. Do we assume people are in some kind of default mode where they always pick up or they always have the option to refuse the communication?
The options for message blocking (for either interpretation) may be important if someone wants to make mental intimidation attempts that others may not know are happening.
Telepathy is the same as talking, but with your mind. Unlike vocal speech, telepathy allows you to "speak" at a single or multiple individuals. This power, however, does not confer mind-reading abilities, merely the ability to speak using your mind rather than voice. Therefore, only creatures with telepathic abilities can actually respond using their mind, as they lack the ability to "speak" that way.
As far as objects go - there's nothing in the limited telepathy ability description, or the Telepathy spell description that indicates it's blocked by normal walls. I'm sure there are all sorts of ways a GM could cook up to to limit that if need be though... maybe a faraday cage for telepaths or something, but that's a side point.
So, under this ruling:
1. Shirren #1 wants to talk to Shirren #2: No one else can hear, they can talk to each other mentally as they both possess limited telepathy.
2. Shirren #1 wants to talk to Human #1. The human can hear, but no one else can. The human can only talk back using it's normal voice as it does not possess telepathic powers (under normal circumstances).
3. Shirren #1 wants to talk to Lashuntas #1 and Human #1. The Shirren can speak to both at once mentally, and both can hear. The Lashunta can respond mentally such that both can hear the response. The human must speak out loud.
4. Shirren #1 wants to talk to the whole group. Yes, the Shirren can mentally address anyone within his limited telepathy range, but only those with telepathy can respond in kind.
Oops, sorry about the double-post. I thought Kvetchus' response was from the original thread, and edit/delete have timed out now. :(
Kvetchus, that seems like a plausible reading, even if I disagree with it. But is tehre any basis in the rules for it? Telepathy is typically described as "mind reading", which would be the *exact opposite* of way you've described (can only read minds, not send messages.) I don't think either version of "one way only" communication is supported by the rules but without any official information, the ability is basically unusable in SFS since rulings can wary wildly.
Telepathy
A creature with the telepathy special ability can mentally
communicate with any other creature within a certain range
(specified in the creature's description, though the range of
telepathy is usually 100 feet) that knows a language. It is
possible to address multiple creatures at once telepathically,
although maintaining a telepathic conversation with
more than one creature at a time is just as difficult as
simultaneously speaking and listening to multiple people at
the same time.
Limited Telepathy
Limited telepathy functions in the same manner as telepathy,
except that both the creature with the limited telepathy special
ability and the creature it is communicating with must have a
language in common.
From this, it appears Telepathy can be used to communicate via a two-way conversation with any being that understands a language. This is regardless of what each person involved can speak.
Limited Telepathy, however, requires both parties to have a common language.
In either case, it can be assumed by the writing that only one party in the conversation is required to have a form of telepathy.
Having said that, I'll be ruling as per Kvetchus has described until clarification!
The two-way nature seems to be also implied in the Core Rulebook "Playing a Lashunta" part, under "Other races probably... Fear you'll use your telepathy to read their minds."
I figured that line was more a reference to the Detect Thoughts ability than to Limited Telepathy. Also, the fact that some other races have prejudice against you and assume you have powerful malicious mind-reading abilities doesn't necessarily mean that you do.
That being said, I've seen people playing it different ways in SFS and agree that it's not very clear in the rules. In a home game situation I'd just discuss it with the table and make sure everyone is clear on how we want it to work. (It's important to have that discussion before the situation comes up where you're sneaking around in some secret area and the slightest sound would alert the enemies.)
Since the definition says "communicate with" and not something like "send messages into the mind of", or even "talk to", I'm inclined to think it would be ok to have two-way communication, at least for short conversations.
For my own lashunta I stay more conservative and play it like Kvetchus says - I speak telepathically to specific individuals or to entire groups, and don't assume they can reply unless they also have telepathic ability.
There is one thing I consider, as a GM, which renders this debate kind of useless: Telepathy is visible. Like 2 people speaking, even if you can't hear them, you understand that they are communicating. Same goes with a cellphone communication, people know you are speaking to someone. So, even if telepathy can't be catch by other members, they will clearly know you are communicating by the movement of your antenaes, your facial expressions and the fact that your recipient concentrates, too. And I'm pretty sure, at that stage, people will ask you to speak out loud or just get outside if you want privacy.
I may ask a player to make a stealth or bluff check to hide his conversation, opposed by the other people's sense motive. And in a room full of people, it will be a tough check.
There is one thing I consider, as a GM, which renders this debate kind of useless: Telepathy is visible. Like 2 people speaking, even if you can't hear them, you understand that they are communicating. Same goes with a cellphone communication, people know you are speaking to someone. So, even if telepathy can't be catch by other members, they will clearly know you are communicating by the movement of your antenaes, your facial expressions and the fact that your recipient concentrates, too.
So, we similarly had a disagreement at the table about how this worked. I see it like this and I view it through the lens of the game setting. All lashunta and shirrens can at least transmit telepathically, in a species where everyone can transmit it seems a bit odd for them to grant a not telepathic recipient the ability to respond telepathically. Amongst their respective species it is unnecessary because everyone can transmit and generally speaking in evolution anything unnecessary either withers away or never evolves in the first place. As such I ruled that lashunta and shirrens can transmit to anyone but unless they are also telepathic they can not reply telepathically. I also made it so you can use tight beam or open broadcast, that is you telepathically speak to one person or everyone nearby.
Its a valid house rule, but not really support by the rules provided. They make it pretty clear that the ability provides telepathic *communication* with people whom you share a language, not telepathic broadcast.
We think of it this way: telepathy operates like a walkie talkie in the mind of a sentient creature. Because it exists as a possibility in the Starfinder universe, it is a potential for all sentient creatures unless the creature has been specified to be deaf and/or mute to it.
Creatures with telepathy of any form are capable of turning their walker talkie on and off at will. Depending on the strength of the telepath, when they “push to talk”, they may be able to broadcast on a single frequency or on a range of frequencies at once. They may possibly, as in the case of the Detect Thoughts spell, also be able to tune into the equivalent of an ultrasonic set of frequencies.
Creatures without telepathy cannot turn their walkie talkies off at will. As with most creatures, they uncontrollably broadcast their thoughts in an ultrasonic range that most telepaths are not naturally attuned to. Their walkie talkie device allowing for deliberate telepathic two-way communication *can* be switched on by a telepathic creature who wishes to communicate. With the device operating and the telepath tuned into the correct channel, the non-telepath is able to “push to talk” mentally to the telepath simply because that’s the nature of a walkie-talkie. The device is automatically switched off once the telepath has no further intention to continue the conversation in this way.
While there are some means for certain creatures to listen in on either regular telepathic communication (as with the Intercepting Ears magitech augmentation) or the natural ultrasonic frequencies (as with particularly powerfully telepathic races or through the use of the Detect Thoughts spell), this is not a function of typical Limited Telepathy.
That's the word I would focus on. You can talk TO someone and they not understand a word of it (this happens when I yell at my kids in Hungarian because I have stepped on their legos). When you communicate WITH someone it implies a couple of things..
1). It's a collaborative communication meaning that both parties can have input. ie... you both can communicate with one another.
2). There is a shared understanding of the form of communication. Ie.. nonverbal in this case using some form of mental response.
In the case of the Shirran it goes on to elaborate on additional conditions for this to be successful, but I haven't looked at other telepathic forms of communication as this post was specific to racial telepathy.
I actually get the idea of why "communication with" would imply a two-way communication pathway, thus giving the non-telepath the ability to speak telepathically with whomever has the telepathic ability. And, in fact, despite the "works the same as telepathy" caveat in the Limited Telepathy description, my groups still goes with Limited not allowing two-way comms because we feel it makes the ability much too powerful.
With full Telepathy, my groups has decided that it's designed to be sufficiently powerful to specifically allow for two-way communication, but with limited telepathy, we felt it was overpowered for a first-level character to be able to have a two-way communication with ANYONE since basically everyone speaks common except monsters that you don't need to talk to really anyway unless the story requires it... and then the GM will need to make sure *some* communication method exists outside of an overpowered skill.
So, the point is, after 7 months and hundreds of hours worth of additional playing since my post above with a group that includes both Lashunta and Shirren characters along side non-telepaths, I feel very confident that disallowing two-way communication with Limited Telepathy is the right call. It provides very interesting roleplaying opportunities when the Lashunta and Shirren can talk without being heard and can coordinate when not in the same room, etc, and also provides interested interactions when non-telepaths are trying to respond without anyone noticing, etc.
What this ruling did was remove limited telepathy from play as game breaking but kept it in play as a roleplaying device. So far, the one-way-only method has worked extremely well.
I imagine if/when Paizo actually provides some formal guidance on this, we might still continue to play it the way we do because it works well from roleplaying perspective and it certainly doesn't break the game or even make the players running lashunta or shirren feel nerfed. Heck, if anything, it gives them a "I can do this and you can't" feeling that helps further define their race. "I can talk to you in your head, and you can't do anything about it, haw haw."
Anything in the Society adventures or the adventure paths shed light on this yet?
There's a Society adventure where the NPC giving the mission briefing is very concerned about it being overheard, so they use limited telepathy to speak to the PCs, and tell the PCs not to say anything out loud.
"[NPC] insists on answering telepathically, and scolds PCs who speak verbally rather than via their telepathy—the mission needs to be as secret as possible, after all!"
There's nothing in the adventure text that says non-telepathic PCs can't ask questions. So in that scenario, at least, it seems to be assumed that anyone can reply telepathically to someone using limited telepathy.
I think a lot of the ruling can probably be found in the spells regarding telepathy, as this is in fact the basis for Limited Telepathy:
Telepathy (5th level Mystic):
"...You can’t use telepathy to locate creatures to communicate with them, but once you’ve established telepathic communication, you don’t require line of effect to maintain it."
This indicates that to initiate telepathy, you need a line of effect, but once communication is established, you don't need it anymore (but you still need to be withing range).
I also wonder how easy it is to discover if a character is speking telepathically. For guidance here, we can look at Telepathic Message (0th lvl Mystic/Technomancer):
"You can send a short telepathic message and hear simple telepathic replies. Any living creature within 10 feet of you or an intended recipient also receives your telepathic message
if it succeeds at a DC 25 Perception check. You must be able to see or hear each recipient. The creatures that receive the message can reply telepathically, but no more than a single message can be sent each round, and each message cannot exceed 10 words. A technomancer casting this spell can also use it to send a message to a computer or a construct with the technological subtype if the receiving target is designed to receive messages."
For this specific spell, other creatures can HEAR the message if they succed on a (quite difficult) Perception check. None of the other telepathy spells gives any chance of overhearing the message. I would say that Limited Telepathy is more closely related to the Telepathy spell, but less powerful (shorter range and must share a language).
Basically, to detect if anyone is speaking telepathically, you would need to know telepathy exists. Otherwise, you wouldn't even consider another being speaking telepathically. I don't know how common knowledge that is.
Knowing that this character in question can communicate telepathically will help. If you see a Lashunta or Shirren and knows that these races can speak telepathically, you would expect them to.
This of course leads into the question of what Limited Telepathy looks like, to an observer. Do their antennae glow? Do they have to the Professor X hand-to-the-temple gesture?
Another thing I wonder is if it's possible to shut out telepathic communication. Using telepathy together with social skills (bluff/diplomacy/intimidate) might provide for increased efficieny of the action, especially if the creature exposed doesn't know about telepathy. It would also do for a lot of fun roleplaying.
Related to this, say that I form a link with an enemy, hides and then just starts being as annoying and threatening as I can directly into their mind. Could they block me out?
When I think about it, I think I would rule it as "It's as hard to block out unwanted telepathy as it is to block out someone yelling at you with sound." Even harder if you're not familiar with telepathy (Tinfoil hat might work XD )