I got these for my husband and I after going through a bunch of cheaper pillows through the years and never finding one that was great. My husband actually ended up not even using a pillow most of the time and preferring to sleep under it. These have been the answer for both of us and our different wants and needs. After several nights adjusting how much stuffing to take out (it seriously took me a couple of week) we both got to our perfect softness and thickness. I love them so much that we have recommended them to family. For people who have said they are still too thick after taking everything out, I don’t understand how that’s possible since the outside foam is only a couple of inches thick so you might as well not even use a pillow.