I like these pillows. They are certainly firm. Out of the box, these things were like a brick. But if you give them a day or two to break in, they will soften a bit. But they will not be a fluffy cloud. They are also larger than expected. They still fit in our standard cases, but are noticeably bigger. One thing i particularly like is that my head doesn’t sink down throughout the night. With a down pillow, my neck hurts the next morning because the alignment is off. This really helps keep that alignment and no more sore neck. I’d give 5 stars, but the 4 represents closer to combined judgement of my wife and me.