# A Talmudic Rationalist Cautionary Tale

*The following is a translated famous passage from the* [*Babylonian Talmud*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud) *(*[*Bava Metzia*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bava_Metzia) *59a–b) that I believe has a good implicit rationalist intepretation.* [*Here*](https://www.themercava.com/app/books/metanav/13992) *is the source to read it yourself.*

*Everything in \[\] was added by the publisher of the translation and () were added by me for clarity/ funny. *

It was taught there \[in a Mishnah (Vessels 5:10)\]: If he cut it \[an earthenware oven\] into rings and placed sand between each ring: Rabbi **Eliezer** (even though he is the epistemic hero, it is not [that](https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=yudkowsky+lesswromh&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8) one) declares it tahor (pure), and the sages declare that it's tamei (impure). And this is the [oven of Achnai](https://www.themercava.com/app/books/metanav/13996). 

Why \[is it called the over of\] Achnai? 

Rabbi Yehuda said that Shmuel said: \[It means\] that they surrounded it with arguments \[literally: words\] like a snake \[achna\], and declared it tamei (impure). 

It was taught: On the day that Rabbi Eliezer responded with every \[imaginable\] argument, but they didn't accept them*. *

He said to them: "If the halacha (Jewish law) agrees with me, this carob \[tree\] will prove it." 

The carob \[tree\] was uprooted 100 amos (debated but approximately meters) out of its place. Others say 400 amos.

They said to him: "A proof can't be brought from a carob \[tree\]." 

Again he said to them: "If the halacha agrees with me, the stream of water will prove it." The stream of water flowed backwards. 

They said to him: "A proof can't be brought from a stream of water." 

Again he said to them: "If the halacha agrees with me, the walls of the Bais Hamidrash (house of learning) will prove it," 

The walls of the Beis Hamidrash tilted to fall \[down\]. 

Rabbi Yehoshua rebuked \[the walls\] and said to them: "When Torah scholars are disputing each other in halacha, what's it to you \[to interfere\]? They didn't fall, in honor of Rabbi Yehoshua, and they didn't straighten up, in honor of Rabbi Eliezer; and they are still standing inclined." 

Again he said to them:  "If the halacha agrees with me, it will be proved from Heaven!" 

A Heavenly Voice \[bas kol\]  came out and said: "What do you have \[to dispute\] with Rabbi Eliezer, \[seeing\] that the halacha agrees with him in every place!"

Rabbi Yehoshua rose to his feet and said: "It's not in Heaven."  \[Devarim 30:12\] (Deuteronomy 30:12)

What \[did he mean by\] it's not in heaven?

Rabbi Yirmiyah said: "The Torah was already given at Mount Sinai, \[so\] we don't pay attention to a heavenly voice, because you wrote it at Mount Sinai, 'One inclines after the majority.' \[Shemos 23:2\] (Exodus 23:2)"

Rabbi Nasan met Eliyahu \[Hanavi\] ([Elijah the Prophet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah), who is famous for [this](https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/111833/jewish/The-Story-of-Elijah-in-the-Bible.htm) story and shows up in a bunch of [Jewish lore](https://jewishaction.com/religion/shabbat-holidays/passover/whats-the-truth-about-eliyahu-hanavi-at-the-seder/)) and said \[to him\]: "What did the Holy One, Blessed is he, (meaning God) do in that hour?"

\[Eliyahu Hanavi\] said to him: "He laughed and said, My children have defeated Me, My children have defeated Me." (me is capitalized because it is referencing God and children here is used to describe the Jewish people)

They said: "That day, all objects that Eliezer had declared tahor (pure) were brought and burnt in fire \[since they were tamei (impure)\]. And they voted about him and \[then\] excommunicated him." 

(The [story goes on](https://www.themercava.com/app/books/metanav/13996), but the rest is less relevant to Rationalism)