# Mixed Feelings on Social Munchkinry

### This is less me expounding on a thesis and more me musing about a topic where I have conflicting intuitions. Epistemic status: [exploratory](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Hrm59GdN2yDPWbtrd/feature-idea-epistemic-status).

One thing: What do I mean by munchkin?
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"Munchkin" is a term from the tabletop roleplaying game community. It's talking about the kind of person who treats the game as a system to optimize, doing weird or unexpected things that aren't against the letter of the rules but often are against the spirit in order to gain some advantage. It's a term that usually has negative valence, though once in a while it'll be spoken with a kind of grudging respect.

Lately I've had the idea of *social* munchkinry in mind. But let me talk a little more about tabletops first.[^tz1qnjgzmfg]

Munchkinry is kinda fun in isolation. Looking at the myriad rules in a dozen rulebooks to try and come up with some overpowered combination is a neat mental exercise that combines the surprise of comedy with the fun mental stimulation of a good math puzzle. I've had hours of entertainment trying to get the most out of a third-level wizard.

One good strategy for getting good munchkinry is to figure out if there's some aspect of the game you're willing to completely neglect. Like, if normally you want your character in a game to be competent at fighting enemies, surviving enemies trying to fight you, and socializing with other characters, what happens if you totally ignore surviving and socializing?

In tabletops, the place where munchkinry gets its negative valence is how they interact with everyone else playing the game. It's not very fun to show up for an emotional story about the tragedy of fantasy knights only to have someone do something weird with a bag of rats or the sale of ten-foot poles and argue that achieves world domination. The exception to that tends to be if everyone else is in on it and thinks that's fun.

(Suggestion if you're in on it and think it's fun: The tabletop RPG [Lancer](https://massifpress.com/lancer) is built to stand up to a lot more munchkin play than most, and gives a lot of room to have fun tinkering with character builds trying to do powerful combinations. I love Lancer, ask me sometime about my Metalmark burn build.)

I highly recommend the fanfic [Harry Potter and the Natural Twenty](https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8096183/1/Harry-Potter-and-the-Natural-20) for some insight into this kind of play, but remember that Natural Twenty is massaging away a lot of the annoying bits by being written as engaging fiction, not an intractable argument delaying a good speech about the fall of the kingdom.

What's the social version of this?

![](https://39669.cdn.cke-cs.com/rQvD3VnunXZu34m86e5f/images/4f1515c983fd5091ef53a7222ef7087c8a062f4f181f5692.png)

[XKCD](https://xkcd.com/592/)

A lot of social norms that aren't really rules so much as conventions. Most people mostly stick to the conventions. Some people look at those conventions and ask, well, is that a *rule* really, what happens if I do this other thing instead?

It's kinda nice
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So that's an idea what munchkinry is. Now to ramble about what I see as the positives. This is an unordered list:

**Skip the small talk.** There's a lot of slow social escalations normally. You ask about the weather, I ask about your weekend, you ask about my family, I ask about your school days, you ask about philosophy of life, I ask about your long dark nights of the soul. Doing that over the course of a month would generally be considered pretty fast social escalation! And yet talks about the long dark nights of the soul can be wonderful conversations. So some people say, hey, why bother with the early stuff? There's a meetup group I'm aware of that's literally called "Skip the Small Talk" but [Askhole](https://askhole.io/) and authentic relating games and circling all feel similar in spirit.

"I want the uncommon, deeply personal parts of conversation. Why not munchkin and optimize for those?"

**Asking for hugs or platonic cuddles.** There was a tradition at my university around finals week. People would write "Free hugs" on a piece of cardboard and hang around in the academic quads, giving hugs to basically anyone who asked. Some people did this enough they decided to get t-shirts with "free hugs" written in big letters. I liked giving and getting hugs, and wholeheartedly supported this tradition.

One of the big surprises at my first rationalist meetup was a pile of people draped over each other on a giant bean bag chair. Despite me being a newcomer and stranger, someone waved me over and asked if I wanted to join the cuddle. That's a bit of social munchkinry!

"I want more physical touch than I expect to get if I follow the norms of only touching family and very close friends. Why not munchkin and optimize for that?" 

**Efficient feedback.** Bridgewater Associates is a financial firm that's infamous for very direct and frequent feedback. Transparently ranking a manager in last place after a meeting, a special tool to give rapid assessments of whether each other's views make sense or are agreed with, and other habits give them the dubious distinction of having the phrase "has been likened to a cult" on their Wikipedia page, but it works for them.

Meanwhile, two of my favourite people to work with came up to me within a day of starting to collaborate seriously together and unprompted asked 'what's the worst thing about working with me right now?' [^pfxy22rebe] It's not a coincidence that they're some of my preferred colleagues either; the first time it happened I was a little sleep deprived and had just pulled twelve hours of work and gave a list of issues, and then *the next day* two of the issues were fixed. By the end of the project, I was asking variations on 'what's the area I can most improve at?' and excited about getting direct feedback so I could improve.

"I want to get clearer and faster information about what I'm doing wrong and where I can improve. Why not munchkin and optimize for that?"

**You can just do things.** The story of Vibecamp is great. Brooke is just kind of going along, minding her business on Twitter, one of hundreds of people enjoying the vibe, and then she suggests doing some kind of Twitter hangout. That leads to [Vibecamp](https://vibe.camp/), which is great. And again Raemon creates Secular Solstice, which is *not helping* the cult aspersions but is one of the most meaningful nights of my year.

It's kinda not
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Now to ramble about what I see as negative examples. Have another unordered list: 

**Pickup artistry.** Some people look at dating and think, man, this could be better if I got to sleep with more hot people. Pickup artists will ask dozens of women out in one night, moving from location to location so as not to be obviously just asking one woman out after another.[^1xhwg4pwnif] With tighter feedback loops they can practice lots of approaches and figure out what gets further in seductions. Some of the techniques they come up with are kinda dubious even if they worked; "negging" is one such that I've heard of, where you say negative things about people you want to seduce.

There's not a fixed rule on how many people you can ask out. There's not really a hard and fast list of what words you can and can't say when flirting. Nevertheless, this feels seedy, and my impression is that collectively the people being approached don't like being attempt #27 of the day.

"I want to sleep with more attractive people. Why not munchkin and optimize for that?"

**Reputation cascades.** [Habryka makes this point better than I will in a paragraph.](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/NQquXynvuAor3KAnD/don-t-let-people-buy-credit-with-borrowed-funds) The idea here is that some people are optimizing for trustworthiness, so they get a little trust, use that as a kind of down payment on a loan for more trust, and keep doing that over and over again.

This works pretty well actually! I've seen people make as few as three quick hops on the ladder of promotion sometimes. Usually it works out fine, because most people are basically honest, but it always gives me the willies to watch in action. Whenever I notice someone is deliberately strategizing for their public perception, suppressing negative commentary or artificially inducing vocal positive support, I get a touch paranoid.

"I want to be trusted. Why not munchkin and optimize for that?"

**Boundary pushing.** Sometimes someone sets a boundary. "If you're going to smoke, you can't be in my house." "If you touch me like that again, I'm going to break up with you." "Dude if you keep playing Meta Knight, I'm going to stop playing Smash Bros Brawl with you."

For the moment, take the boundary as being fine; acceptable reach, clearly communicated, all that.

Sometimes someone looks at that rule and moves to *juuuust* outside [the threshold](https://homosabiens.substack.com/p/thresholding). 

This is not great? Like, if you finally switch off Meta Knight (the most powerful character in Smash Bros Brawl) only to play Snake (the second most powerful[^pxydgyjp0z]) for the next five matches I might throw a pillow at your head next game. For a more serious example, Adam moving his hand to *juuust* above the boundary line is unlikely to make Bella feel like he's cooperating with her on making this a good experience for them both.[^cuoszasa8u]

"I want to technically follow the rule so I don't get the consequence. Why not munchkin and optimize for as much of what I wanted?"

**You can just do things.** \[redacted\]

So where am I at?
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I have mixed feelings.

To paraphrase the inestimable Noah Sweat:

If when you say social munchkinry you mean the devil's loophole, the easy path, the insidious breakdown of the social order, that inspires fights, creates misery and drama, yea, literally is as bad a behavior as it can possibly get and not be against the rules; if you mean the evil optimization process that topples the Rationalist man and woman and non-binary and genderflux from the pinnacle of virtuous, gracious living into the bottomless pit of disdain, and despair, and lack of shame, then certainly I am against it.

But, if when you say social munchkinry you mean the lubrication of deep friendships, the philosophic thought experiment, the instigation of Solstice songs on their lips and laughter in their hearts, and the warm glow of satisfaction in their eyes; if you mean the spark of creativity; if you mean the stimulating optimization that puts a spring in the new organizer's step on a frosty, crispy morning; if you mean the lens which enables a man to magnify his joy, and his happiness, and to ignore, if only for a little while, his great shortcomings, and heartaches, and dump stats; if you mean that munchkinry, the satisfaction of which pours into our treasuries untold millions of QALYs, which are used to provide happiness batteries and ladders up for our depressed, our lonely, our isolated, our young and un-agenty; to build reputation networks and hits-based success stories, then certainly I am for it.

This is my stand. I have left myself a line of retreat from it. I don't even know what compromise would mean here.

[^tz1qnjgzmfg]: In the words of Scott Alexander, "I have always found these fascinating and just remembered that nobody can stop me from talking about them." 

[^pfxy22rebe]: Quote not exact because I'm away from my usual index card stack and instead of memorizing the exact line I put my effort into incorporating the general technique into my habits. 

[^1xhwg4pwnif]: I never hear about pickup artists who are trying to sleep with men, though I assume there's some gay guys and at least a few straight women out there employing the same fundamental mindset. 

[^pxydgyjp0z]: C'mon LessWrong. I know you want to bring up Ice Climbers. The desire for the theoretical optimal option is strong in you, I can sense it. Do it and then 1v1 me, I'll kick your butt with Ganondorf. 

[^cuoszasa8u]: This does not only apply to this specific gender dynamic. I admit I'm using this one because it's the more obvious salient example.