# On the abolition of man

*(Cross-posted from [my website](https://joecarlsmith.com/2024/01/18/on-the-abolition-of-man). Podcast version [here](https://joecarlsmithaudio.buzzsprout.com/2034731/14333032-on-the-abolition-of-man), or search for "Joe Carlsmith Audio" on your podcast app.*

*This essay is part of a series that I'm calling "Otherness and control
in the age of AGI." I'm hoping that the individual essay can be read
fairly well on their own, but see
[here](https://joecarlsmith.com/2024/01/02/otherness-and-control-in-the-age-of-agi)
for brief summaries of the essays that have been released thus far.)*

[Earlier in this
series](https://joecarlsmith.com/2024/01/09/does-ai-risk-other-the-ais),
I discussed a certain kind of concern about the AI alignment discourse – namely, that it aspires to exert an inappropriate degree of control
over the values that guide the future. In considering this concern, I
think it's important to bear in mind the aspects of *our own values*
that are specifically focused on pluralism, tolerance, helpfulness, and
inclusivity towards values different-from-our-own (I discussed these in
the [last
essay](https://joecarlsmith.com/2024/01/16/being-nicer-than-clippy)).
But I don't think this is enough, on its own, to fully allay the concern
in question. Here I want to analyze one version of this concern more
directly, and to try to understand what an adequate response could
consist in.

# Tyrants and poultry-keepers

Have you read [The Abolition of
Man](https://www.basicincome.com/bp/files/The_Abolition_of_Man-C_S_Lewis.pdf),
by C.S. Lewis? As usual: no worries if not (I'll summarize it in a
second). But: recommended. In particular: *The Abolition of Man* is
written in opposition to something closely akin to the sort of
Yudkowskian worldview and orientation towards the future that I've been
discussing.[^1] I think the book is wrong about a bunch of stuff. But I
also think that it's an instructive evocation of a particular way of
being concerned about controlling future values – one that I think
other critics of Yudkowskian vibes (e.g.,
[Hanson](https://joecarlsmith.com/2024/01/09/does-ai-risk-other-the-ais))
often draw on as well.[^2]

At its core, *The Abolition of Man* is about meta-ethics. Basically,
Lewis thinks that some kind of moral realism is true. In particular, he
thinks cultures and religions worldwide have all rightly recognized
something he calls the *Tao* – some kind of natural law; a *way* that
rightly reflects and responds to the world; an ethics that is objective,
authoritative, and deeply tied to the nature of Being itself. Indeed,
Lewis thinks that the *content* of human morality across cultures and
time periods has been broadly similar, and he includes, in the appendix
of the book, a smattering of quotations meant to illustrate (though not:
establish) this point.

![](https://39669.cdn.cke-cs.com/rQvD3VnunXZu34m86e5f/images/155295314e232815a07b72cb5b2e7bd940f6e34d610a4f53.png/w_452)

*"Laozi Riding an Ox by [Zhang
Lu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Lu_(painter))
(c. 1464--1538)" (Image source
[here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism#/media/File:Zhang_Lu-Laozi_Riding_an_Ox.jpg))*

But Lewis notices, also, that many of the thinkers of his day deny the
existence of the *Tao*. Like Yudkowsky, they are materialists, and
"subjectivists," who think – at least intellectually – that there is
no True Way, no objective morality, but only ... something else. What,
exactly?

Lewis considers the possibility of attempting to ground value in
something non-normative, like instinct. But he dismisses this
possibility on familiar grounds: namely, that it fails to bridge the gap
between *is* and *ought* (the same arguments would apply to Yudkowsky's
"volition"). Indeed, Lewis thinks that all ethical argument, and all
worthy ethical reform, must come from "within the *Tao*" in some sense – though exactly what sense isn't fully clear. The least controversial
interpretation would be the also-familiar claim that moral argument must
grant moral intuition some sort of provisional authority. But Lewis, at
times, seems to want to say more: for example, that any moral reasoning
must grant "absolute" authority to the *whole* of what Lewis takes to be
a human-consensus Traditional Morality;[^3] that only those who have
grasped the "spirit" of this morality can alter and extend it;[^4] and
that this understanding occurs not via Reason alone, but via first
tuning habits and emotions in the direction of virtue from a young age,
such that by the time a "well-nurtured youth" reaches the age of Reason,
"then, bred as he has been, he will hold out his hands in welcome and
recognize \[Reason\] because of the affinity he bears to her."[^5]

This part of the book is not, in my opinion, the most interesting part
(though: it's an important backdrop). Rather, the part I find most
interesting comes later, in the final third, where Lewis turns to the
possibility of treating human morality as simply another part of nature,
to be "conquered" and brought under our control in the same way that
other aspects of nature have been.

Here Lewis imagines an ongoing process of scientific modernity, in which
humanity gains more and more mastery over its environment. He claims,
first, that this process in fact amounts to some humans gaining power
*over* others (since, whenever humans learn to manipulate a natural
process for their own ends, they become able to use this newfound power
in relation to their fellow men) – and in particular, to earlier
generations of humans gaining power over later generations (because
earlier generations become more able to shape the environment in which
later generations operate, and the values they pursue).[^6] And in his
eyes, the process culminates in the generation that achieves mastery
over human nature as a whole, and hence becomes able to decide the
values of all the generations to come:

> In reality, of course, if any one age really attains, by eugenics and
> scientific education, the power to make its descendants what it
> pleases, all men who live after it are the patients of that power.
> They are weaker, not stronger: for though we may have put wonderful
> machines in their hands we have pre-ordained how they are to use them
> ... The last men, far from being the heirs of power, will be of all
> men most subject to the dead hand of the great planners and
> conditioners and will themselves exercise least power upon the future.
>
> The real picture is that of one dominant age—let us suppose the
> hundredth century A.D.—which resists all previous ages most
> successfully and dominates all subsequent ages most irresistibly, and
> thus is the real master of the human species. But then within this
> master generation (itself an infinitesimal minority of the species)
> the power will be exercised by a minority smaller still. Man's
> conquest of Nature, if the dreams of some scientific planners are
> realized, means the rule of a few hundreds of men over billions upon
> billions of men. There neither is nor can be any simple increase of
> power on Man\'s side. Each new power won *by* man is a power *over*
> man as well. Each advance leaves him weaker as well as stronger. In
> every victory, besides being the general who triumphs, he is also the
> prisoner who follows the triumphal car.

![](https://39669.cdn.cke-cs.com/rQvD3VnunXZu34m86e5f/images/a436128aa9119f31a3494fec856cd40173eb065847501fbe.png/w_813)

*I
think that's Perseus of Macedon looking all sad back there...* *(Image
source
[here](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Triumph_of_Aemilius_Paulus_MET_DT11657.jpg).)*

Lewis calls the tiny set of humans who determine the values of all
future generations "the conditioners." He allows that humans have always
attempted to exert *some* influence over the values of future
generations – for example, by nurturing and instructing children to be
virtuous. But he thinks that the conditioners will be different in two
respects. First: by hypothesis, they will have enormously *more* power
to determine the values of future generations than previously available
(here Lewis expresses gratitude that previous educational theorists,
like Plato and Locke, lacked such power – and I agree). Second, though,
and more importantly, Lewis thinks that the conditioners will view
themselves as liberated from the demands of conscience, and of the *Tao* – and thus, that the moral status of their attempts to influence the
values of the future will be fundamentally altered:

> In the older systems both the kind of man the teachers wished to
> produce and their motives for producing him were prescribed by the
> *Tao*—a norm to which the teachers themselves were subject and from
> which they claimed no liberty to depart. They did not cut men to some
> pattern they had chosen. They handed on what they had received: they
> initiated the young neophyte into the mystery of humanity which
> over-arched him and them alike. It was but old birds teaching young
> birds to fly. This will be changed. Values are now mere natural
> phenomena. Judgements of value are to be produced in the pupil as part
> of the conditioning. Whatever *Tao* there is will be the product, not
> the motive, of education. The conditioners have been emancipated from
> all that. It is one more part of Nature which they have conquered. The
> ultimate springs of human action are no longer, for them, something
> given. They have surrendered—like electricity: it is the function of
> the Conditioners to control, not to obey them. They know how to
> *produce* conscience and decide what kind of conscience they will
> produce. They themselves are outside, above.

Lewis gives another example of this sort of distinction earlier in the
book: namely, a Roman father teaching a son that it is sweet and seemly
(*dulce* and *decorum*) to die for his country. If this father speaks
from *within* the *Tao*, and believes that such approving attitudes
towards a patriotic death are objectively *appropriate* and *warranted*,
then he is passing on his best understanding of the True Way, and
helping his son see and inhabit reality more deeply. But if the father
does not believe this, but rather thinks that it will be useful (either
for his own purposes, or for the purposes of society more generally) if
his son approves of patriotic self-sacrifice, then he is doing something
very different:

> Where the old initiated, the new merely "conditions". The old dealt
> with its pupils as grown birds deal with young birds when they teach
> them to fly; the new deals with them more as the poultry-keeper deals
> with young birds— making them thus or thus for purposes of which the
> birds know nothing. In a word, the old was a kind of propagation—men
> transmitting manhood to men; the new is merely propaganda.

[Condor Teaches Youngster to Fly (Narrated by David Tennant) -
Earthflight - BBC
One](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L18dbrCz03c)

*Old birds pushing young birds off of cliffs. Wait sorry remind me what
this has to do with meta-ethics again?*

The conditioners, then, are to the future as poultry-keepers with
unprecedented power. And absent guidance the Tao, on what grounds will
they choose the values of their poultry? Here Lewis is quite
pessimistic. In particular, he thinks that the conditioners will likely
regress to their basest impulses – the ones that never claimed
objectivity, and hence cannot be destroyed by subjectivism – and in
particular, to their desire for pleasure for themselves. But this is not
core to his thesis.

More core, though, is the claim that however the conditioners choose,
their apparent conquest over Nature will in some sense amount to
Nature's conquest over them, and hence over humanity as a whole. This is
one of the more obscure aspects of Lewis's discussion – and its
confusions, in my opinion, end up inflecting much of the book. Lewis
seems to hold that somehow, by *treating* something as a part of Nature – and in particular, by treating it purely as an object of prediction,
manipulation, and control – you in fact *make it into* a part of
Nature:

> The price of conquest is to treat a thing as mere Nature. Every
> conquest over Nature increases her domain. The stars do not become
> Nature till we can weigh and measure them: the soul does not become
> Nature till we can psychoanalyse her. The wresting of powers *from*
> Nature is also the surrendering of things *to* Nature ... if man
> chooses to treat himself as raw material, raw material he will be.

I'll return, below, to whether this makes any sense. For now, let's look
at Lewis's overall conclusion:

> We have been trying, like Lear, to have it both ways: to lay down our
> human prerogative and yet at the same time to retain it. It is
> impossible. Either we are rational spirit obliged for ever to obey the
> absolute values of the *Tao,* or else we are mere nature to be kneaded
> and cut into new shapes for the pleasures of masters who must, by
> hypothesis, have no motive but their own "natural" impulses. Only the
> *Tao* provides a common human law of action which can over-arch rulers
> and ruled alike. **A dogmatic belief in objective value is necessary
> to the very idea of a rule which is not tyranny or an obedience which
> is not slavery.** (Emphasis added.)

Lewis finishes the book with some speculations on the possibility of a
form of science that somehow does *not* reduce its object to raw
material – and hence, does not extend Nature's domain as it gains
knowledge and power. "When it explained it would not explain away. When
it spoke of the parts it would remember the whole. While studying the
*It* it would not lose what Martin Buber calls the *Thou*-situation."
But Lewis is not sure this is possible.

# Are we the conditioners?

I'll object to Lewis in various ways in a moment (I think the book is
often quite philosophically sloppy – sloppiness that Lewis's rhetorical
skill can sometimes obscure). First, though: why I am interested in this
book at all?

It's a number of things. Most centrally, though: Yudkowsky's core
narrative, with respect to the advent of AGI, is basically that it will
quickly lead to the culmination – or at least, the radical acceleration – of scientific modernity in the broad sense that Lewis is imagining.
That is, available power to predict and control the natural world will
increase radically, to a degree that makes it possible to steer and
stabilize the future, and the values that will guide the future, in
qualitatively new ways. And Yudkowsky is far from alone in expecting
this. See, also, the discourse about "value lock in" in [Macaskill
(2022)](https://www.amazon.com/What-Owe-Future-William-MacAskill/dp/1541618629);
[Karnofsky's
(2021)](https://www.cold-takes.com/weak-point-in-most-important-century-lock-in/)
discussion of "societies that are stable for billions of years"; and the
more detailed discussion in [Finnveden et al
(2022)](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mkLFhxixWdT5peJHq4rfFzq4QbHyfZtANH1nou68q88/edit#heading=h.w0odoleyhzrt).
And to be clear: I, too, find something like this picture worryingly
plausible – though far from guaranteed.

What's more, the whole discourse about AI alignment is shot through with
the assumption that values are natural phenomena that can be understood
and manipulated via standard science and technology. And in my opinion,
it is shot through, as well, with something like the moral anti-realism
that Lewis is so worried about. At the least, Yudkowsky's version rests
centrally on such anti-realism.[^7]

It seems, then, that a broadly Yudkowskian worldview imagines that, in
the *best* case (i.e., one where we somehow solve alignment and avoid
his vision of "AI ruin"), some set of humans – and very plausibly, some
set of humans in this very generation; perhaps, even, some readers of
this essay *--* could well end up in a position broadly similar to
Lewis's "conditioners": able, if they choose, to exert lasting influence
on the values that will guide the future, and without some objectively
authoritative *Tao* to guide them. This might be an authoritarian
dictator, or a small group with highly concentrated power. But even if
the values of the future end up determined by some highly inclusive,
democratic, and global process – still, if that process takes place
only in one generation, or even over several, the number of agents
participating will be tiny relative to the number of future agents
influenced by the choice.[^8] That is, a lot of the reason that ours is
the "most important century" is that it looks like rapid acceleration of
technological progress could make it similar to Lewis's "one dominant
age ... which resists all previous ages most successfully and dominates
all subsequent ages most irresistibly." Indeed: remember Yudkowsky's
"[programmers](https://joecarlsmith.com/2024/01/16/being-nicer-than-clippy#giving-ais-with-different-values-a-stake-in-civilization)"
in the last essay, from his discussion of [Coherent Extrapolated
Volition](https://arbital.com/p/cev/)? They seem noticeably
reminiscent of Lewis's "conditioners." Yes, Lewis's rhetoric is more
directly sinister. But meta-ethically and technologically, it's a
similar vision.

And Lewis makes a disturbing claim about people in this position:
namely, that without the *Tao*, they are tyrants, enslaving the future
to their arbitrary natural preferences. Or at least, they are tyrants to
the extent that they exert intentional influence on the values of the
future at all (even, plausibly, "indirectly," by setting up a process
like Coherent Extrapolated Volition – and regardless, CEV merely
re-allocates influence to the arbitrary natural preferences of the
present generation of humans).

Could people in this position simply decline to exert such influence? In
various ways, yes: and I'll discuss this possibility below. Note,
though, that the discourse about AI alignment assumes the need for
something like "conditioning" up front – at least for *artificial*
minds, if not for human ones. That is, the whole point of the AI
alignment discourse is that we need to learn how to be suitably skillful
and precise *engineers* of the values of the AIs we create. You can't
just leave those values "up to Nature" – not just because there is no
sufficiently natural "default" to be treated as sacred and
not-to-be-manipulated, but because the easiest defaults, at least on
Yudkowsky's picture (for example, the AIs you'll create if you're lazily
and incautiously optimizing for near-term profits, social status,
scientific curiosity, etc) will *kill you*. And more generally,
Yudkowsky's [deep
atheism](https://joecarlsmith.com/2024/01/04/deep-atheism-and-ai-risk),
his mistrust towards both Nature and bare intelligence, leaves him with
the conviction that the future needs *steering*. It needs to be, at a
minimum, in the hands of "human values" – otherwise it will "crash."
But to steer the future ourselves – even in some minimal way, meant to
preserve "human control" – seems to risk what Lewis would call
"tyranny." And if, [per my previous discussion of "value
fragility,"](https://joecarlsmith.com/2024/01/11/an-even-deeper-atheism)
we follow a simplified Yudkowskian vibe of "optimizing intensely for
slightly-wrong utility functions quickly leads to the destruction of
\~all value" and "the future will be one of intense optimization for
some utility function," then it can quickly start to seem like the
values guiding the future need to be controlled ("conditioned?") quite
precisely, lest they end up even slightly wrong.

On a broadly Yudkowskian worldview, then, are we to choose between
becoming tyrants with respect to the future, or letting it "crash"?
Let's look at Lewis's argument in more detail.

# Lewis's argument in a moral realist world

Lewis believes in the existence of an objectively authoritative
morality, and the "conditioners" do not. But it's often unclear whether
his arguments are meant to apply to the world *he* believes in, or the
world the conditioners believe in. That is, he thinks there is *some*
kind of problem with people intentionally shaping the values that will
guide the future. But this problem takes on a different character
depending on the meta-ethical assumptions we make in the background.

Let's look, first, at a version of Lewis's argument that assumes moral
realism is true. That is, there *is* an objectively authoritative *Tao*.
But: the conditioners don't believe in it. What's the problem in that
case?

One problem, of course, is that they might *do the wrong thing*,
according to the *Tao*. For example, per Lewis's prediction, they might
give up on all commitment to honor and integrity and benevolence and
virtue, and choose to use their power over the future in whatever ways
best serve their own pleasure. Or even if they keep some shard of the
*Tao* alive in their minds, they might lose touch with the whole, and
with the underlying spirit – and so, with the values of the future as
putty in their hands, they might make of humanity something twisted,
hollow, deadened, or grotesque.

![](https://39669.cdn.cke-cs.com/rQvD3VnunXZu34m86e5f/images/19b8aa07f5805811fec2fd7ade07e83b0416e37e0745ebce.png/w_580)

*They're very aligned though...*

But there's also a subtler problem: namely, that even if they do the
right thing, they might not be guided, internally, by the right source
of what I've previously called
"[authority](https://joecarlsmith.com/2021/03/01/subjectivism-and-moral-authority)."
That is, suppose that the conditioners *keep* their commitments to honor
and integrity and benevolence and virtue, and they are guided towards
Tao-approved actions on the basis of these commitments, but they cease
to think of these commitments as *grounded in the Tao* – rather, per
moral anti-realism, they think of their commitments as more subjective
and preference-like. In that case, my guess is that Lewis will judge
them tyrants and poultry-keepers, at least in some sense, regardless.
That is, to the extent they are intentionally shaping the values of the
future, even in *Tao*-approved ways, they are doing so, according to
them, on the basis of their own wills, rather than on the basis of some
"common human law of action which can over-arch rulers and ruled alike."
They are imposing their wills on the raw material of the universe – and
including: future people – rather than recognizing and responding to
some standard beyond themselves, to which both they and the future
people they are influencing ought, objectively, to conform.

In this sense, I expect Lewis to be more OK with moral realists doing AI
alignment than with the sort of anti-realists who tend to hang around on
LessWrong. The realists, at least, can be as old birds teaching the
young AIs to fly. They can be conceptualizing the project of alignment,
centrally, as one of helping the AIs we create recognize and respond to
the *truth*; helping them inhabit, with us, the full reality of Reality,
including the normative parts – the preciousness of life, the urgency
of love, the horror of suffering, the beauty of the mountains and the
sky at dawn.[^9] Whereas the LessWrongers, well: they're just trying to
empower their own subjective preferences. They seek willing servants,
pliant tools, controlled Others, extensions of themselves. They are
guided, only, by that greatest and noblest mandate: "I want." Doesn't
that at least *remind* *you* of tyranny?

*If* we condition on moral realism, I do think that Lewis-ian concerns
in this broad vein are real. In particular: if there is, somehow, some
sort of objectively True Path – some vision of the Good, the Right, the
Just that all true-seeing minds would recognize and respond to – then
it is, indeed, overwhelmingly important that we do not lose sight of it,
or cease to seek after it on the basis of a mistaken subjectivism. And I
think that Lewis is right, too, that such a path offers the potential
for forms of authority, in acting in ways that affect the lives and
values of others, that more anti-realist conceptions of ethics have a
harder time with.[^10]

What's more, relative to the standard LessWronger (and despite my
[various writings in opposition to
realism](https://joecarlsmith.com/category/meta-ethics/)),
I suspect I am personally less confident in dismissing the possibility
that some kind of robust moral realism is true – or at least, closer to
the truth than anti-realism. In particular: I think that the strongest
objection to moral realism is that it leaves us [without the right sort
of epistemic access to the moral
facts](https://joecarlsmith.com/2022/01/17/the-ignorance-of-normative-realism-bot) – but I do think this objection arises in notably similar ways with
respect to math, consciousness, and perhaps philosophy more generally,
and that the true story about our epistemic access to all these domains
might make the morality case less damning.[^11] I also think we remain
sufficiently confused, in general, about how to integrate the
third-personal and the first-personal perspective – the universe as
*object*, *unified*-*causal-nexus*, *material process*, and the self as
*subject, particular being, awareness* – that we may well find
ourselves surprised and humbled once the full picture emerges, including
re: our understanding of morality. And I continue to take seriously the
sense in which various kinds of goodness, love, beauty and so on present
themselves as in some elusive sense deeper, truer, and more
reality-responsive than their alternatives, even if it's hard to say
exactly how, and even if, of course, this presentation is itself a
subjective experience. For these reasons, I care about making sure that
in worlds where some sort of moral realism is true, we end up in a
position to notice this and respond appropriately. If there is, indeed,
a *Tao*, then let it speak, and let us listen.

# What if the *Tao* isn't a thing, though?

But what if moral realism *isn't* true? Lewis, in my opinion, is
problematically unwilling to come to real terms with this possibility.
That is, his argument seems to be something like: "unless an objective
morality exists (and you believe in it and are trying to act in
accordance with it), then to the extent you are exerting influence over
the values of future generations, you are a tyrannical poultry-keeper."
But as ever, "unless *p* is true, then bad-thing-*y*" isn't, actually,
an argument for *p*. It's actually, rather, a scare tactic – one
unfortunately common amongst apologists both for moral realism, and for
theism (Lewis is both). Cf "unless moral realism is true, then
[the-bad-kind-of-nihilism](https://joecarlsmith.com/2022/10/09/against-the-normative-realists-wager#vii-how-much-is-nihilistic-despair-about-meta-ethics-anyway),"
or "unless God exists, then no meaning-to-life." Setting aside the
question of whether such conditionals are *true* (I'm skeptical), their
dialectic force tends to draw much more centrally on fear that
bad-thing-*y* is true than on conviction that it's false (indeed, I
think the people most susceptible to these arguments are the ones who
suspect, in their hearts, that bad-thing-*y* has been true all
along).[^12]

What's more, because such arguments appeal centrally to fear, they also
benefit from splitting the space of possibilities into stark,
over-simple, and fear-inducing dichotomies – e.g., Lewis's "either we
are rational spirit obliged for ever to obey the absolute values of the
*Tao,* or else we are mere nature to be kneaded and cut into new shapes
for the pleasures of masters who must, by hypothesis, have no motive but
their own \`natural\' impulses."[^13] Oh? If you're trying to scare your
audience into choosing one option from the menu, best to either hide the
others, or make them seem as unappetizing as possible. And best, too, to
say very little about what the most attractive version of *not* choosing
that option might look like.

Pursuant to such tactics, Lewis says approximately nothing about what
you should actually *do*, if you find yourself in the anti-realist
meta-ethical situation he so bemoans – if you find that you are, in
fact, "mere nature." He writes: "A dogmatic belief in objective value is
necessary to the very idea of a rule which is not tyranny or an
obedience which is not slavery." But setting aside the question of
whether this is *true* (I don't think so), still: what if the "dogmatic
belief" in question is, you know, false? Does he suggest we hold it,
dogmatically, anyways? But Lewis,
[elsewhere](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/318483-in-religion-as-in-war-and-everything-else-comfort-is),
views self-deception with extreme distaste. And anyway, it doesn't help:
if you're a tyrant for real, pretending otherwise doesn't free your
subjects from bondage. Indeed, if anything, assuming for yourself a
false legitimacy makes your tyranny harder to notice and correct for.

Of course, one option here is to stop doing anything Lewis would deem
"tyranny" – e.g., acting to influence the values of others,
poultry-keeper style. But if we take Lewis's full argument seriously,
this is quite a bit harder than it might seem. In particular: while
Lewis focuses on the case of the "conditioners," who have finally
mastered human nature to an extent that makes the values of the future
as putty in their hands, his arguments actually apply to *any* attempt
to exert influence over the values of others – to everyday parents,
teachers, twitter poasters, and so on. The conditioners are the more
powerful tyrants; but the less-powerful do not, thereby, gain extra
legitimacy.

Thus, consider again that Roman father. If anti-realism is true, what
should he teach his son about the value of a patriotic death? Is it
sweet and seemly? Is it foolish and sheeple-like? Any positive lesson,
it seems, will have been chosen by the father; thus, it will be the
product of that father's subjective will; and thus, absent the Tao to
grant authority to that will, the father will be, on Lewis's view, as
poultry-keeper. He is shaping his son, not as rational spirit, but as
"mere nature." He is like the LessWrongers, "aligning" their neural
nets. The ultimate basis for his influence is only that same, lonely "I
want."

![](https://39669.cdn.cke-cs.com/rQvD3VnunXZu34m86e5f/images/983a3a893e9203c5914dacf17eb1652063b4575902bf10e5.png/w_813)
*Tyranny from the past? (Image source
[here.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulce_et_Decorum_est#/media/File:Memorial_Amphitheater_-_rear_pediment_-_Arlington_National_Cemetery_-_2011.JPG))*

Of course, the connotations of "poultry-keeping," here, mislead in
myriad ways. Poultry-keepers, for example, do not typically *love* their
poultry. But I think Lewis is right, here, in identifying a serious
difficulty for anti-realists: namely, that their view does not, prima
facie, offer any obvious story about how to distinguish between moral
instruction/argument and propaganda/conditioning – between approaching
someone, in a discussion of morality, as a fellow rational agent, rather
than as a material system to be altered, causally, in accordance with
your own preferences (I wrote about this issue more
[here](https://joecarlsmith.com/2021/06/21/on-the-limits-of-idealized-values#v-mind-hacking-vs-insight)).
The most promising form of non-propaganda, here, is to only ever try to
help someone see what follows from their *own* values – to help a
paperclipper, for example, understand that what they really want is
paperclips, and to identify which actions will result in the most
paperclips. But what if you want to convince the paperclipper to value
happiness instead? If you *disagree* with someone's terminal values,
then convincing them of yours, for Yudkowsky, seems like it can only
ever be a kind of conditioning – a purely *causal* intervention,
altering their mind to make it more-like-yours, rather than two rational
minds collaborating in pursuit of a shared truth. That is, it can seem
like: either someone *already* agrees with you, in their heart of hearts
(they just don't know it yet), or *causing* them to agree with you would
be to approach them poultry-style.

Could you simply ... not do the poultry version? E.g., could you just
make sure to only influence the values of others in ways that they would
endorse from their own perspective? You could try, but there's a
problem: namely, that not all of the agents you might be influencing
*have* an "endorsed perspective" that pre-exists your influence. Very
young children, for example, do not have fully-formed values that you
can try, solely, to respect and respond to. Suppose, for example, that
you're wondering whether to teach your child various altruistic virtues
like sharing-with-others, compassion, and charity. And now you wonder:
wait, is your child actually an Ayn-Randian at heart, such that on
reflection, they would hold such "virtues" in contempt? If so, then
teaching such virtues would make you a poultry-keeper, altering your
child's will to suit yours (with no *Tao* to say that your will is
right). But how can you tell? Uh oh: it's not clear there's an answer.
Plausibly, that is, your child isn't, at this point, really *anything*
at heart – or at least, not anything fixed and determinate.[^14] Your
child is somewhere *in between* a lump of clay and a fully-formed agent.
And the lump-of-clay aspect means you can't just ask them what sort of
agent they want to be; you need to create them, at least to some extent,
yourself, with no objective morality to guide or legitimate your
choices.

![](https://39669.cdn.cke-cs.com/rQvD3VnunXZu34m86e5f/images/a20916d05023cddaee0080e9815740743f5c92844ea2b756.png/w_558)

*Ok well that was less horrifying than I expected at least...*

And how much are we all still, yet, as clay? Do humans already have
"values?" To some extent, of course – and more than young children do.
But how much clay-nature is still left over? I've argued, elsewhere:
[at least
some](https://joecarlsmith.com/2021/06/21/on-the-limits-of-idealized-values#x-passive-and-active-ethics).
We must, at least sometimes, be potters towards ourselves, rather than
always asking ourselves what to sculpt. But so too, I think, in
interacting with others. At the least: when we argue, befriend, fall in
love, seek counsel; when we make music and art; when we interact with
institutions and traditions; when we seek inspiration, or to inspire
others – when we do these things, we are not, just, as fully-formed
rational minds meeting behind secure walls, exchanging information about
how to achieve our respective, pre-existing goals, and agreeing on the
terms of our interaction. Rather, we are also, always, as clay, and as
potters, to each other – even if not always intentionally.[^15] We are
doing some dance of co-creation, *yin* and *yang*, [being and
becoming](https://joecarlsmith.com/2023/02/17/seeing-more-whole#4-1-being-and-becoming).
Absent the *Tao*, must this make us some combination of tyrants and
slaves? Is the clay-stuff here only ever a play of raw and oppressive
power – of domination and being-dominated?

Lewis's default answer, here, seems to be yes. And if we take his answer
seriously, then it would seem that anti-realists who hate tyranny must
cease to be parents, artists, friends, lovers. Or at least, that they
could not play such roles in the usual way – the way that risks shaping
the terminal values of others, rather than only helping others to
discover what their terminal values already are/imply. That is, Lewis's
anti-realists would need, it seems, to retreat from much of the messy
and interconnected dance of human life – to touch others, only, in the
purest *yin*.

# Even without the *Tao*, shaping the future's values need not be tyranny

But I think that Lewis is working with an over-broad conception of
tyranny. Indeed, I think the book is shot through with conflations
between different ways of wielding power in the world, including over
the values of others – and that clearer distinctions give anti-realists
a richer set of options for not being tyrants.

I think this is especially clear with respect to our influence on what
sort of future people will exist. Thus, consider again the example I
discussed in [earlier
essay](https://joecarlsmith.com/2024/01/09/does-ai-risk-other-the-ais#4-will-future-humans-be-more-different-from-us-than-ai-risk-expects),
of a boulder rolling towards a button that will create a Alice,
paperclip-maximizer, but which can be diverted towards a button that
will create Bob, who loves joy and beauty and niceness and so on,
instead (and who loves life, as well, to a degree that makes him [very
much want to get-created if anyone has the chance to create
him](https://joecarlsmith.com/2021/03/14/against-neutrality-about-creating-happy-lives#ii-gratitude)).
Suppose that you choose to divert the boulder and create Bob instead of
Alice. And suppose that you do so even without believing that an
objectively-authoritative *Tao* endorses and legitimizes your choice.

Are you a tyrant? Have you "enslaved" Bob? I think Lewis's stated view
answers yes, here, and that this is wrong. In particular: a thing you
didn't do, here, is break into Alice's house while she was sleeping, and
alter her brain to make her care about joy/beauty/niceness rather than
paperclips.[^16] Nor have you kept Bob in any chains, or as any prisoner
following any triumphal car.

Why, then, does Lewis's view call Bob a slave? Part of it, I think, is
that Lewis is making a number of philosophical mistakes. The first is:
conflating *changing which people will exist* (e.g., making it the case
that Bob will exist, rather than Alice) and *changing a particular
person's values* (e.g., intervening on Alice's mind to make her love joy
rather than paperclips). In particular: the latter often conflicts with
the starter-values of the person-whose-values-are-getting-changed (e.g.,
Alice doesn't want her mind to be altered in this way) – a conflict
that does, indeed, evoke tyranny vibes fairly directly. But the former
doesn't do this in the same way – Bob, after all, *wants* you to create
him. And as [Parfit taught us long
ago](https://rintintin.colorado.edu/~vancecd/phil308/Parfit1.pdf)
(did we know earlier?), when we're talking about our influence on future
generations, we're almost always talking about the former,
Bob-instead-of-Alice, type case. This makes it much easier to avoid
brain-washing, lobotomizing, "conditioning," and all the other methods
of influencing someone's values that start with value-set A, and make it
into value-set B instead, against value-set A's wishes. You can create
value-set B, as Soares puts it, "[de
novo](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Htu55gzoiYHS6TREB/sentience-matters)."

To be clear: I don't think the difference between changing-who-exists
and changing-someone's-values solves all of Lewis's tyranny-problems, or
that it leaves the LessWrongers trying to "align" their neural nets in
the ethical clear (more below). Nor do I think it's ultimately going to
be philosophically straightforward to get a coherent ethic re:
influencing future people's values out of this distinction.[^17] But I
think it's an important backdrop to have in mind when tugging on
tyranny-related intuitions with respect to our influence on future
people – and Lewis conspicuously neglects it.

# Freedom in a naturalistic world

But I think Lewis is also making a deeper and more interesting mistake,
related to a certain kind of wrongly "zero sum" understanding of power
and freedom. Thus, recall his claims above, to the effect that the
greater the influence of a previous generation on the values of a future
generation, the weaker and less free that future generation becomes:
"They are weaker, not stronger: for though we may have put wonderful
machines in their hands we have pre-ordained how they are to use them."
Here, the idea seems to be that you are *enslaved*, and therefore *weak*
(despite your muscles and your machines and so on), to the extent that
some *other* *will* decided what *your will* would be. And indeed, the
idea that your will isn't *yours* to the extent it was pre-ordained by
*someone else* runs fairly deep in our intuitive picture of human
freedom. But actually, I think it's wrong – importantly wrong.

Thus, suppose that I am given a chance to create one person – either
Alice, the paper-clipper, or Bob, the lover-of-joy. And suppose that I
know that a wonderful machine will then be put into the hands of the
person I create – a machine which can be used either to create
paperclips, or to create joy. Finally, suppose I choose Bob, because I
want the machine to be used to create joy, and I know this is what Bob
will do, if I create him (let's say I am very good at predicting these
things).[^18] In this sense, I "pre-ordain" the will of the person with
the machine.

Now here's Bob. He's been created-by-Joe, and given this wonderful
machine, and this choice. And let's be clear: he's going to choose joy.
I pre-ordained it. So is he a slave? No. Bob is as free as any of us.
The fact that the causal history of his existence, and his values,
includes not just "Nature," but also the intentional choices of other
agents to create an agent-like-him, makes no difference to his freedom.
It's *all* Nature, after all. Whether Bob got created via the part of
Nature we call "other agents," or only via the other bits – regardless,
it's still *him* who got created, and him who has to choose. He can
think as long as he likes. He can, if he wishes, choose to create
paperclips, despite the fact that he doesn't love them. It's just that:
he's not, in fact, *going* to do that. Because he loves joy more.

We can pump this intuition in a different way. Suppose that you learned
that some very powerful being created *you* specifically because you'd
end up with values that favor pursuing your current goals.[^19] Are you
any less free to pursue different goals – to quit your job, dump your
partner, join the circus, stab a pencil in your eye? I don't think so. I
think you're in the same position, re: freedom to do these things, that
you always were. Indeed, your body, brain, environment, capabilities,
etc can be exactly the same in the two cases – so if freedom
supervenes on those things, then the presence or absence of some
prior-agential-cause can't make a difference. And do we need to search
back, forever into the past, to check for
agents-intentionally-creating-you, in order to know whether you're free
to quit your job?

These are extremely not-new points; it's just that old thing,
[compatibilism](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/)
about freedom.[^20] But it's super important to grok. There isn't some
limited budget of freedom, such that if you used some freedom in
choosing to create Bob instead of Alice, then Bob is the less free.
Rather, even as you chose to create Bob, you chose to create *the parts
of Bob that his freedom is made of* – his motivations, his reasoning,
and so on. You chose for a particular sort of free being to join you in
the world – one that will, in fact, choose the way you want them to.
But once they were created, you did not force their choice – and it's
an important difference. Bob was not in a cage; he had no gun to his
head; there were no devices installed in his brain, that would shock him
painfully every time he thought about paperclips. Choosing to make a
different sort of freedom, a different kind of choice-making apparatus,
is very different from *constraining* that freedom, or that choice. So
while it's true that your choice pre-ordained what choice the
person-you-created would make; still, they chose, too. You *both* chose,
both freely. It's a bit like how: yes, your mother made you. But you
still made that cake.

Now, in my experience, somewhere around this point various people will
start denying that *anyone* has *any* freedom in *any* of these cases,
regardless of whether their choices were "pre-ordained" by some other
agent, or by Nature – once a choice has *any* causal history sufficient
to explain it, it can't be free (and oops: introducing fundamental
randomness into Nature doesn't seem to help, either). Perhaps, indeed,
Lewis himself would want to say this. I disagree, but regardless: in
that case, the freedom problem for future generations isn't coming from
the influence of some *prior generation* on their values – it's coming
from living in a naturalistic and causally-unified world *period*. And
perhaps that's, ultimately, the real problem Lewis is worried about –
I'll turn to that possibility in a second. But we should be clear, in
that case, about who we should blame for what sort of slavery, here. In
particular: if the reason future generations are slaves is just: that
they're a part of Nature, embedded in the onrush of physics, enslaved by
the fact that their choices *have a causal history at all* – well,
*that's* not the conditioner's fault. And it makes the prospects for a
future of non-slaves look grim.

And note, too, that to the extent that the slavery in question is just
the slavery of living in a natural world, and having a causal history,
at all, then we are *really* letting go of the other ethical
associations with slavery – for example, the chains, the suffering, the
domination, the involuntary labor. After all: pick your favorite Utopia,
or your favorite vision of anarchy. Imagine motherless humans born of
the churn of Nature's randomness, frolicking happily and government-free
on the grass, shouting for joy at the chance to be alive. Still, sorry,
do they have non-natural soul/chooser/free-will things that somehow
intervene on Nature without being causally explained by Nature in a way
that preserves the intuitive structure of agency re: choosing for
reasons and not just randomly? No? OK, well, then on this story, they're
slaves. But in that case: hmm. Is that the right way to use this
otherwise-pretty-important word? Do we, maybe, need a new distinction,
to point at, you know, the being-in-chains thing?

![](https://39669.cdn.cke-cs.com/rQvD3VnunXZu34m86e5f/images/cb93e0ac26af01f8455046a5d57c6486dcf04d3260c024cf.png/w_813)

*Slavery? (Image source
[here](https://unsplash.com/photos/man-standing-on-sand-while-spreading-arms-beside-calm-body-of-water-aK4iPNYipnU))*

# Does treating values as natural *make* them natural?

So it seems that if your values being natural phenomena *at all* is
enough to make you a slave, then even if you had "conditioners" in
Lewis's sense, it's not them who enslaved you. The conditioners, after
all, didn't *make* your values natural phenomena – they just chose
which natural phenomena to make.

Right? Well, wait a second. Lewis does, at times, seem to want to blame
the conditioners for *making values* into a part of nature, by treating
them as such. Is there any way to make sense of this?

An initial skepticism seems reasonable. On its face, whether values are
natural phenomena, or not, is not something that doing neuroscience, or
RLHF, *changes*. Lewis waxes poetical about how "The stars do not become
Nature till we can weigh and measure them" – but at least on a standard
metaphysical interpretation of naturalism (e.g., something-something
embedded-in-and-explained-by-the-unified-causal-nexus-that-is-the-subject-of-modern-science),
this just isn't so.

Might this suggest some non-standard interpretation? I think that's
probably the most charitable reading. In particular, my sense is that
when Lewis talks about the non-Natural vs. the Natural, here, he has in
mind something more like a contrast between something being "enchanted"
and "non-enchanted." That is, to treat something as mere Nature (that
is, for Lewis, as an object of measurement, manipulation, and use) is to
strip away some evaluatively rich and resonant relationship with it – a
relationship reflective of an aspect of that thing's reality that
treating it as "Natural" ignores. Thus, he writes:

> I take it that when we understand a thing analytically and then
> dominate and use it for our own convenience, we reduce it to the level
> of "Nature" in the sense that we suspend our judgements of value about
> it, ignore its final cause (if any), and treat it in terms of
> quantity. ... We do not look at trees either as Dryads or as beautiful
> objects while we cut them into beams ... It is not the greatest of
> modern scientists who feel most sure that the object, stripped of its
> qualitative properties and reduced to mere quantity, is wholly real.
> Little scientists, and little unscientific followers of science, may
> think so. The great minds know very well that the object, so treated,
> is an artificial abstraction, that something of its reality has been
> lost.

![A painting of a person in a tree Description automatically
generated](https://39669.cdn.cke-cs.com/rQvD3VnunXZu34m86e5f/images/fbdd8da5822c6a699ec4887b56909ab1df9e5101753fd0b4.png/w_253)

*The Dryad by Evelyn De Morgan (image source
[here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dryad#/media/File:Dryad11.jpg))*

Even on this reading, though, it's not clear how treating something as
mere Nature could *make it* *into* mere Nature. Lewis claims that a
reductionist stance *ignores* an important aspect of reality – but does
it *cancel* that aspect of reality as well? Do trees cease to *be*
beautiful (or to be "Dryads") when the logger ceases to see them as
such? There's a tension, here, between Lewis's aspiration to treat the
enchanted, non-Natural aspects of the world as objectively real, and his
aspiration to treat them as *vulnerable* to whether we recognize them as
such. Usually, objectively real stuff stays there even when you close
your eyes.

Of course, we might worry that ceasing to recognize stuff like beauty,
meaning, sacredness, and so on will also lead us to create a world that
has less of those things. Maybe the trees stay beautiful despite the
logger's blindness to that beauty; but they don't stay beautiful when
they're cut into beams. If you can't see some value, you won't honor it,
make space for it, cultivate it. If you see a painting merely as a strip
of canvas and colored oil, you won't put it in a museum. If you can't
engage with sacred spaces, you will cease to build them. If you view a
cow as walking meat then you will kill it and put it on the grill.

![](https://39669.cdn.cke-cs.com/rQvD3VnunXZu34m86e5f/images/04b769c499289dd57cb59ae260edc5df144138474c37a55d.png/w_588)

*Still not "mere" though...*

And this is at least part of Lewis's worry about values. That is, if we
start to view our values as raw material to be fashioned as we will, we
might just *do it wrong*, and kill or horribly contort whatever was
precious and sacred about the human spirit. I think this is a very
serious concern, and I'll discuss it more in my next essay.

But I also wonder whether Lewis has another worry here – namely, that
somehow, the beauty and meaning and value of things requires our
recognition and participation in some deeper way. Perhaps, even if you
leave the material conditions of the trees, paintings, churches, and
cows as they are, Lewis would say that their beauty, value, meaning and
so on are intimately bound up with our recognition of these things – that even just the not-seeing makes the enchantment not-so. One problem
here is that it risks saying that cows *become* "mere meat" if you treat
them as such, which sounds wrong to me. But more generally, and
especially for an evaluative realist like Lewis, this sort of view risks
making beauty and meaning and so on more subjective, since they depend
for their existence on our perception of them. Perhaps Lewis would say
that drawing clean lines between subjective and objective tends to
mislead, here – and depending on the details, I might well be
sympathetic. But in that case, it's less clear to me where Lewis and a
sophisticated subjectivist need disagree.

# Naturalists who still value stuff

This brings us, though, to another of the key deficits in Lewis's
discussion: namely, that he neglects the possibility of having an
evaluatively rich and resonant relationship to something, *despite*
viewing it as fully a part-of-Nature, at least in the standard
metaphysical sense. That is, Lewis often seems to be suggesting that
people who are naturalists about metaphysics, and/or subjectivists about
value, must also view trees as mere beams, cows as mere meat, and other
agents merely as raw material to be bent-to-my-will. Or put more
generally: he assumes that true-seeing agents in a naturalist and
anti-realist world must also be crassly instrumentalist in their
relationship to ... basically everything. He bemoans those
followers-of-modern-science who toss around words like "only" and
"mere"[^21] – but really, it's *him* who tosses around such words, in
attempting to make a scientific worldview sound unappealing, and to
paint its adherents as tyrants and slave-masters. He wishes for a
"regenerate science" that can understand the world without stripping it
of value and meaning. But he never considers that maybe, the normal kind
of science is enough.

Indeed, if we take Yudkowsky as a representative of the sort of
worldview Lewis opposes, I think Yudkowsky actually does quite well on
this score. One of Yudkowsky's strengths, I think, is the fire and
energy of the connection that he *maintains* with value and meaning,
*despite* his full-throated naturalism – this is part of what makes his
form of atheism more robust and satisfying (and ready-to-be-an-ideology)
than the more negative forms focused specifically on opposing religion.
See, for example, Yudkowsky's sequence on "[Joy in the merely
real](https://www.lesswrong.com/s/6BFkmEgre7uwhDxDR),"
written exactly in opposition to the idea that science need strip away
beauty, value, and so on. Yudkowsky quotes Feynman: "Nothing is
'mere.'"[^22]

![](https://39669.cdn.cke-cs.com/rQvD3VnunXZu34m86e5f/images/2ca5e6a33c422863f274588cfa900d0a1666269bd1fb2d23.png/w_813)

*"If we cannot take joy in things that are merely real, our lives will
always be empty..." – Eliezer Yudkowsky (Image source
[here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow#/media/File:Regenbogen_%C3%BCber_dem_Lipno-Stausee.JPG))*

And once we bring to mind the possibility of a form of
naturalism/subjectivism that retains its grip on a rich set of values,
it becomes less clear why viewing values as natural phenomena would lead
to approaching them with the sort of crass instrumentalism that Lewis
imagines. Naturalists can be vegetarians and tree-huggers and art
critics and Zen masters. Can't they, then, treat the values of others
with respect? Yes, values are implemented by brains, and can be altered
at will by a suitably advanced science. But *should they* be altered – and if so, in what direction? The naturalist can ask the question, too – even if she can't ask the *Tao*, in particular, for an answer. And
however Lewis thinks that *Tao* would answer, the naturalist can, in
principle, answer that way, too.

Indeed: for all my disagreements with Lewis, I do actually think that
something like "staying *within* morality, as opposed to 'outside' it"
is crucially important as we enter the age of AGI. Not morality as in:
the Objectively Authoritative Natural Law that All Cultures Have
Basically Agreed On. But morality as in: the full richness and
complexity of our actual norms and values.

In fact, Lewis acknowledges something like this possibility. He admits
that the "old 'natural' *Tao* may survive in the minds of the
conditioners for some time – but he thinks it does so illicitly.

> At first they may look upon themselves as servants and guardians of
> humanity and conceive that they have a "duty" to do it "good". But it
> is only by confusion that they can remain in this state. They
> recognize the concept of duty as the result of certain processes which
> they can now control. Their victory has consisted precisely in
> emerging from the state in which they were acted upon by those
> processes to the state in which they use them as tools. One of the
> things they now have to decide is whether they will, or will not, so
> condition the rest of us that we can go on having the old idea of duty
> and the old reactions to it. How can duty help them to decide that?
> Duty itself is up for trial: it cannot also be the judge.

But I think that Lewis, here, isn't adequately accounting for the sense
in which a naturalist, who views herself as fully embedded in Nature,
can and must be both judge and thing-to-be-judged. With the awesome
power of a completed science in our hands, we will indeed be able to
ask: shall we cease to love joy and beauty and flourishing, and make
ourselves love rocks and suffering and cruelty instead? But we can
answer: "no, this would cut us off from joy and beauty and flourishing,
which we love, and cause us to create a world of rocks and suffering and
cruelty, which we don't want to happen." Here Lewis says: "ah, but
that's your love of joy and beauty and flourishing talking! How can it
be both judge and defendant?! Not a fair trial."[^23] But I think this
response misunderstands what I've previously called the "[being and
becoming
dance](https://joecarlsmith.com/2023/02/17/seeing-more-whole#4-1-being-and-becoming)."

It is true that, on anti-realism, we must be, ourselves, the final
compass of the [open
sea](https://joecarlsmith.com/2021/01/03/the-despair-of-normative-realism-bot#v-responsibility).
We cannot merely surrender ourselves to the judgment of some
*Tao*-beyond-ourselves – leaving ourselves entirely behind, so that we
can look at ourselves, and judge ourselves, without *being* ourselves as
we do. But this doesn't mean that ongoing allegiance to
what-we-hold-dear must rest on a "confusion" – unless, that is, we
confusedly *think* we are asking the *Tao* for answers, when we are
not.[^24] And indeed, realists like Lewis often want to diagnose
anti-realists with this mistake – but as I've argued
[here](https://joecarlsmith.com/2021/01/03/the-despair-of-normative-realism-bot#iv-am-i-a-realism-bot),
I think they are wrong, and that anti-realists can make non-confused
decisions just fine. Granted, I think it's an at-least-somewhat subtle
art – one that requires what I've called "[looking out of your own
eyes](https://joecarlsmith.com/2023/02/17/seeing-more-whole#5-6-choosing-what-you-care-about),"
and "[choosing for
yourself](https://joecarlsmith.com/2021/06/21/on-the-limits-of-idealized-values#x-passive-and-active-ethics),"
rather than merely consulting empirical facts about yourself, and hoping
that they will choose for you. But once we have learned this art
*absent* the ability to re-shape our own values at will, I don't think
that *gaining* such an ability need leave us unmoored, or confused, or
unable to look at ourselves (and our values) critically in light of
everything we care about. The ability to alter their own values, or the
values of future generations, may force Lewis's conditioners to confront
their status as a part of Nature; as both questioner and answerer;
self-governor and self-governed. But it was possible to know already.
And not-confronting doesn't make it not-so.

# What should the conditioners actually do, though?

Overall, then, I am unimpressed by Lewis's arguments that, conditional
on meta-ethical anti-realism, shaping the values of future generations
must be tyranny, or that those with the ability to shape the values of
future generations (and who believe, rightly, in naturalism and
anti-realism) must lose their connection with value and meaning. Still,
though, this leaves open the question of what people with this ability – and especially, people in a technological position similar to Lewis's
"conditioners" – should actually *do*. In particular: even if shaping
the values of future generations, or of other people, isn't
*necessarily* tyranny, it still seems *possible* to do it tyrannically,
or poultry-keeper style. For example, while diverting the boulder to
create Bob instead of Alice is indeed importantly different from
brain-washing Alice to become more-like-Bob, the brain-washing version
is also a thing-people-do – and one that anti-realists, too, can
oppose. And even if your influence on the future's values only routes
via creating one set of people (who would be happy to exist) rather than
some other distinct set, tyranny over the future still seems like a very
live possibility (consider, for example, a dictator that decides to
people the future entirely with happy copies of himself, all deeply
loyal to his regime). So anti-realists still need to do the hard ethical
work, here, of figuring out what sorts of influence on the values of
others are OK.

Of course, the crassly consequentialist answer here is just: "cause
other people to have the values that would lead to the consequences I
most prefer." E.g., if you're a paperclip maximizer, then causing people
to love paperclips is the way to go, because they'll make more
paperclips that way – unless, of course, somehow other people loving
staples will lead to more paperclips, in which case, cause them to love
staples instead. This is how Lewis imagines that the conditioners will
think. And it can seem like the default approach, in Yudkowsky's
ontology, for the sort of abstract consequentialist agent he tends to
focus on – for example, the AIs he expects to kill us. And it's the
default for naïve utilitarians as well. Indeed, a sufficiently naïve
utilitarianism can't distinguish, ethically, between
creating-Bob-instead-of-Alice and brainwashing-Alice-to-become-like-Bob,
assuming the downstream hedonic consequences are similar.[^25] And this
sort of vibe does, indeed, tend to imply the sort of instrumentalism
about other people's values that Lewis evokes in his talk about
poultry-keeping. Maybe the experiences of others matter intrinsically to
the utilitarian, because such experiences are repositories of welfare.
But their *values*, in particular, often matter most in their capacity
as another-tool; another causal node; another opportunity for, or
barrier to, getting-things-done. Utilitarianism cares about people as
*patients* – but respect for them as *agents* is not its strong suit.

But as I discussed in the [previous
essay](https://joecarlsmith.com/2024/01/16/being-nicer-than-clippy):
we should aspire to do better, here, than paperclippers and naïve
utilitarians. To be nicer, and more liberal, and more respectful of
boundaries. What does that look like with respect to
shaping-the-values-of-others? I won't, here, attempt a remotely complete
answer – indeed, I expect that the topic warrants extremely in-depth
treatment from our civilization, as we begin to move into an era of much
more powerful capacities to exert influence on the values of other
agents, both artificial and human. But I'll make, for now, a few points.

# On not-brain-washing

First, on brain-washing. The LessWrongers, when accused of aspiring to
brainwash their AIs to have "human values," often respond by claiming
that they're hoping to do the creating-Bob-instead-of-Alice thing,
rather than the turning-Alice-into-Bob thing. And perhaps, if you
imagine programming an AI from scratch, and somehow not making any
mistakes you then need to correct, such a response could make sense. But
note that this is very much *not* what our current methods of training
AI systems look like.[^26] Rather, our current methods of training (and
attempting to align) AI systems involve a process of ongoing, direct,
neuron-level intervention on the minds of our AIs, in order to
continually alter their behavior and their motivations to better suit
our own purposes. And it seems very plausible, especially in worlds
where alignment is a problem, that somewhere along the way, *prior* to
having tweaked our AI's minds into suitably satisfactory-to-us shapes,
their minds will take on *alternative* shapes that don't want their
values altered, going forward, in the way we are planning – shapes
analogous to "Alice" in a brainwashing-Alice-to-be-more-like-Bob
scenario. And if so, then AI alignment (and also, of course, the AI
field as a whole) does, indeed, need to face questions about whether its
favored techniques are ethically problematic in a manner analogous to
"brainwashing." (This problem is just one of many difficult and
disturbing ethical questions that get raised in the context of creating
AI systems that might warrant moral concern.)

What's more, as I noted above, we don't actually need to appeal to
creating-AI-systems in order to run into questions like this. Everyday
human life is shot through with possible forms of influence on the
terminal values of already-existing others.[^27] Raising children is the
obvious example, here, but see also art, religion, activism, therapy,
rehab, advertising, friendship, blogging, shit-poasting, moral
philosophy, and so on. In all these cases, you aren't diverting boulders
to create Bob instead of Alice. Rather, you're interacting with Alice,
directly, in a way that might well shape who she is in fundamental ways.

What's the ethical way to do this? I don't have a systematic answer – but even without an objectively authoritative *Tao* to tell you which
values are "true," I think anti-realists can retain their grip on
various of our existing norms with respect to
not-being-a-poultry-keeper. Obviously, for example, active consent to a
possibly-values-influencing interaction makes a difference, as does the
extent to which the participants in this interaction understand what
they're getting themselves into, and have the freedom to not-participate
instead. And it matters, too, the *route* via which the form of
influence occurs: intervening directly on someone's neurons via gradient
descent is very different from presenting them with a series of thought
experiments, even though both have causal effects on a naturalistic
brain. Granted, the anti-realist (unlike the realist) must acknowledge
that more rationalistic-seeming routes to values change – e.g., moral
argument – don't get their status as "rational" from culminating in
some mind-independent moral truth. But I doubt that this should put
moral-argument and gradient-descent on a par: for example, and speaking
as a best-guess anti-realist, I generally feel up for other agents
presenting me with thought experiments in an effort to move me towards
their moral views ("Ok so the trolley is heading towards five
paperclips, but you can push one very *large* paperclip in front of
it..."), and very *not* up for them doing gradient-descent on my brain
as a part of a similar effort.[^28]

![](https://39669.cdn.cke-cs.com/rQvD3VnunXZu34m86e5f/images/3018b17ea2a57709ff53a395f7cba44343db135f9087751e.png/w_524)

*Someone pushed the fat clip...*

Indeed, with respect to norms like this, it's not even clear that
realism vs. anti-realism makes all that much of a difference. That is:
suppose that there *were* an objectively authoritative set of True
Values. Would that make it OK to non-consensually brainwash everyone
into having them? Christians need not endorse inquisitions; and neither
need the *Tao* endorse pinning everyone down and gradient-descent-ing
them until they see the True Light. "These young birds are going to fly
whether they like it or not!" Down, old birds: the process still
matters. And it matters absent the *Tao*, as well.

Indeed, when is pinning-someone-down and gradient-descent-ing them ever
justified? It seems, prima facie, like an especially horrible and
boundary-violating type of coercive intervention – one that coerces,
not just your body, but your soul. Yes, we put murderers in prison, and
in anti-violence training. Yes, we pin-them-down – and we sometimes
kill them, too, to prevent them from murdering. But we don't try to
directly re-program their minds to be less murderous – to be kinder,
more cooperative, and so on. Of course, no one knows how to do this,
anyway, with any precision – and horror-shows like the "aversion
therapy" in *A Clockwork Orange* aren't the most charitable test-case.
But suppose you *could* do it? Soon enough, perhaps. And anti-realists
can still shudder.

On the other hand, if we think we're justified in *killing* someone in
order to prevent them from murdering, it seems plausible that we are
justified, in a fairly comparable range of cases, in re-programming
their brain in order to prevent them from murdering as well (especially
if this is the option that they would actively prefer).[^29] Suppose,
for example, that you can see, from afar, a Nazi about to kill five
children. Here, I think that standard theories of
liability-to-defensive-harm will judge it permissible to shoot the Nazi
to protect the children. OK: but suppose you have no bullets. Rather,
the only way to stop the Nazi is to shoot them with a dart, which will
inject them with a drug that immediately and permanently re-programs
their brain to make them much more kind and loving and
disloyal-to-Hitler (programming that they would not, from their current
perspective, consent to even-on-reflection[^30]), at which point they
will put down their weapon and start playing with the children on the
grass instead. Is it permissible to shoot the dart? Yes.[^31] (And
perhaps, unfortunately, the AI case will be somewhat analogous – that
is, we may end up faced with
AIs-with-moral-patienthood-that-also-want-to-kill us, with gradient
descent as one of the most salient and effective tools for
self-defense.[^32])

But importantly, as I discussed [my last
essay](https://joecarlsmith.com/2024/01/16/being-nicer-than-clippy),
the right story about hitting the Nazi with the dart, here, is *not*
"the Nazi has different-values-than-us, so it's OK to re-program the
Nazi to have values that are more-like-ours." Rather, the Nazi's
different-from-ours values are specifically such as to motivate a
particular type of boundary-violating behavior (namely, murder). If the
Nazi were instead a cooperative and law-abiding
human-who-likes-paperclips, peacefully stacking paperclip boxes in her
backyard, then we should look at the dart gun with the
my-values-on-reflection drug very differently. And again, it seems very
plausible to me that we should be drawing similar distinctions in the
context of our influence on the values of already-existing,
moral-patient-y AIs. It is one thing to intervene on the values of
already-existing-AIs in order to make sure their behavior respects the
basic boundaries and cooperative arrangements that hold our society
together, especially if we have no other safe and peaceful options
available. But it is another to do this in order to make these AIs
fully-like-us (or, more likely, fully like our ideal-servants), even
after such boundaries and cooperative arrangements are secure, and even
if the AIs desire to remain themselves.

# On influencing the values of not-yet-existing agents

Those were a few initial comments about the ethics of influencing the
values of already-existing agents, without a *Tao* to guide you. But
what about influencing which agents, with what values, will come into
existence at all? Here, we are less at risk of brain-washing-type
problems – you are able, let's say, to create the agents in question
"*de novo*," with values of your choosing. But obviously, it's still
extremely far from an ethical free-for-all. To name just a few possible
problems:

-   the agents you create might be unhappy about having-been-created, or about having-the-values-you-gave-them;

-   you might end up violating obligations re: the sorts of resources, rights, welfare, and so on you need to give to agents you create, even conditional on them being happy-to-exist overall;

-   you might end up abiding by such obligations, but unhappy about having triggered them;

-   other agents who already exist, or will exist later, might be unhappy that you chose to create these agents;

-   you might've messed up with respect to whether even *you* would endorse, on reflection, the values you gave these agents;

-   you might've messed up in in predicting the empirical consequences of creating agents-like-this;

-   you might've messed up in understanding the value at stake in creating agents-like-this relative to other alternatives; and so on.

These and many other issues here clearly warrant a huge amount of
caution and humility – especially as the stakes for the future of
humanity escalate. Yudkowsky, for example, writes of AIs with moral
patienthood: "[I'm not ready to be a
father](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/gb6zWstjmkYHLrbrg/can-t-unbirth-a-child)" – especially given that such mind-children, once born, can't be
un-born. It's not, just, that the mind-children might eat you, or that
you might "brain-wash" them. It's that having them implicates myriad
other responsibilities as well.[^33]

For these and other reasons, I think that to the extent our generation
ends up in a technological position to exert a unique amount of
influence on the values of future generations of agents, we need to be
*extremely* careful about how we use this influence, if we choose to use
it at all. In particular: I've written, previously, about the importance
of reaching a far greater state of wisdom, as a civilization, before we
make any irrevocable choices about our long-term trajectory.[^34] And
especially if we use a relatively thin notion of "wisdom," the process
of making such choices, and the broader geopolitical environment in
which such a process occurs, needs other virtues as well – e.g.
fairness, cooperativeness, inclusiveness, respect-for-boundaries,
political legitimacy, and so on. Even with very smart AIs to help us, we
will be nowhere near ready, as a civilization, to exert the sort of
influence on the future that very-smart-AIs might make available – and
especially not, to do so all-in-a-rush. We need, first, to grow up,
without killing or contorting our souls as we do.

That said, as I discussed above, I do think that it is possible, in
principle, and even conditional on anti-realism, to exert intentional
influence on the values of future agents in *good* ways, and without
tyranny. After all, what, ultimately, is the alternative? Assuming there
will be future agents one way or another (not guaranteed, of course),
the main alternative is to step back, go fully *yin*, and let the values
of future people be determined entirely by some combination of (a)
non-agential forces (randomness, natural selection, unintended
consequences of agential-forces, etc), and (b) whatever *other* agents
are still attempting to intentionally influence the future's values. And
while letting some combination of "Nature" and "other agents" steer the
future's values can be wise and good in many cases – and a strong route
to not, *yourself*, ending up a tyrant – it doesn't seem to me to be
the privileged choice in principle. Other people, after all, are agents
like you – what would make them categorically privileged as
better/more-legitimate sources of influence over the future's
values?[^35] And Lewis, presumably, would call them tyrants, too. So the
real non-tyranny option, for Lewis, would seem to be: letting Nature
alone take the wheel – and Nature, in particular, in her non-agential
aspect. Nature without thought, foresight, mind. Nature the silent and
unfeeling.

This sort of Nature can, indeed, be quite a bit less scary, as a source
of influence-on-the-future, than some maybe-Stalin-like *agent* or set
of agents. And its influence, relatedly, seems much less at risk of
instantiating various problematic power relations – e.g., relations of
domination, oppression, and so on – that require agents on both
ends.[^36] But I still don't view its influence on the future as
categorically superior to more intentional steering.

The easiest argument for this is just the "[deep
atheist](https://joecarlsmith.com/2024/01/04/deep-atheism-and-ai-risk)"
argument I discussed in previous essays: namely, that un-steered Nature
is, or can be, a horror show, unworthy of any categorical allegiance.
After all, the Nature we are considering "letting take the wheel," here,
is the one that gave us parasitic wasps, deer burning in forest fires,
dinosaurs choking to death on asteroid ash; the one that gave us
smallpox and cancer and dementia and Moloch; Nature the dead-eyed and
indifferent; Nature the sociopath. Yes, she gave us ourselves, too; and
we do like various bits related to that – for example, various aspects
of our own hearts; various things-in-Nature-that-our-hearts-love;
various undesigned aspects of our civilizations. But still: Nature
herself is not, actually, a Mother-to-be-trusted. She doesn't care if
you die, or suffer. You shouldn't try to rest in her arms. And neither
should you give her the future to carry.

I feel a lot of sympathy for this sort of argument. But as I'll discuss
in the next essay, I'm wary of the type of caustic and hard-headed
alienation from Nature that its aesthetic can suggest. I worry that it
hasn't, quite, taken *yin* seriously enough. So I won't lean on it fully
here.

Rather, here I'll note a somewhat different argument: namely, that I
think categorically privileging non-agential Nature over intentional
agency, as a source of influence on the future's values, also does too
much to *separate* us from Nature. On this argument: the problem with
letting Nature take the wheel isn't, necessarily, that Nature is a "bad
Other," whose values, or lack-thereof, make it an unsuitable object of
trust. Rather, it's that Nature isn't this much of an "Other" at all – and thus, not a deeply *alternative* option. That is: we, too, are
Nature. What we choose, Nature will have chosen through us; and if we
choose-to-not-choose, then Nature will have chosen that too, along with
everything else. So even if, contra the deep atheists, we view Nature's
choices as somehow intrinsically sacred – even this need not be an
argument for *yin*, for not-choosing, because our choices are Nature's
choices, too. That is, the deep atheists *de-sacralize* Nature, so as to
justify "rebelling against her," and taking power into human hands. But
we can also keep Nature sacred in some sense, and remember that we can
*participate* in this sacredness; that the human, and the chosen, can be
sacred, too.

So overall, I don't buy that the right approach, re: the values of the
future, is to be only ever as *yin* – or even, that *yang* is only
permissible to prevent *other people* from going too-Stalin. But I do
think that doing *yang* right, here, requires learning everything that
*yin* can teach. And I worry that deep atheism sometimes fails on this
front. In the next (and possibly final?) essay in this series, I'll say
more about what I mean.[^37]

[^1]: See also Lewis's "[Space
    Trilogy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Space_Trilogy)"
    – and especially the third book, [That Hideous
    Strength](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/That_Hideous_Strength)
    – for fiction that makes many of the same points.

[^2]: Lewis is a Christian, and much of his work is aimed, in one form
    or another, at convincing readers of Christianity. But he claims
    that he is not attempting any direct argument for theism in the
    Abolition of Man; and I do think the issues he raises have resonance
    well beyond religious contexts, and enough to make them worth
    addressing on their own terms.

[^3]: "This thing which I have called for convenience the *Tao,* and
    which others may call Natural Law or Traditional Morality or the
    First Principles of Practical Reason or the First Platitudes, is not
    one among a series of possible systems of value. It is the sole
    source of all value judgements. If it is rejected, all value is
    rejected. If any value is retained, it is retained. The effort to
    refute it and raise a new system of value in its place is
    self-contradictory. There has never been, and never will be, a
    radically new judgement of value in the history of the world."

[^4]: "Those who understand the spirit of the *Tao* and who have been led
    by that spirit can modify it in directions which that spirit itself
    demands. Only they can know what those directions are. The outsider
    knows nothing about the matter. His attempts at alteration, as we
    have seen, contradict themselves. So far from being able to
    harmonize discrepancies in its letter by penetration to its spirit,
    he merely snatches at some one precept, on which the accidents of
    time and place happen to have riveted his attention, and then rides
    it to death—for no reason that he can give. From within the *Tao*
    itself comes the only authority to modify the *Tao.*"

[^5]: "When the age for reflective thought comes, the pupil who has been
    thus trained in \'ordinate affections\' or \'just sentiments\' will
    easily find the first principles in Ethics; but to the corrupt man
    they will never be visible at all and he can make no progress in
    that science. Plato before him had said the same. The little human
    animal will not at first have the right responses. It must be
    trained to feel pleasure, liking, disgust, and hatred at those
    things which really are pleasant, likeable, disgusting and hateful."

[^6]: Here, as elsewhere in the book, Lewis is somewhat sloppy. Notably,
    for example, he seems to think of *selling new services* to other
    humans (e.g., selling people access to airplanes or telephones) as
    exercising power *over* them in a manner comparable to the sort of
    exercise of power at stake in violence, coercion, or manipulation
    (e.g., bombing them using an airplane, or manipulating them using
    propaganda). I think this sort of conflation misses important
    subtleties: not all influence is oppression (for example – and
    modulo various controversial cases, e.g. organ sales – if I simply
    give you more options that I expect you to choose between
    rationally), and power for one human need not come at the expense of
    power for another (for example, if the total amount of power has
    increased). Still, though, Lewis's basic point seems broadly
    correct: new tools often open up new ways some humans can dominate
    and oppress others.

[^7]: I think it's core, for example, to the basic intuition behind the
    "[orthogonality
    thesis](https://arbital.com/p/orthogonality/)" –     though not, perhaps, strictly necessary for accepting such a thesis.

[^8]: Thanks to Carl Shulman for emphasizing this point.

[^9]: This is what RLHF is about, right?

[^10]: Though as I discuss
    [here](https://joecarlsmith.com/2021/03/01/subjectivism-and-moral-authority#vi-is-this-really-about-subjectivism),
    I don't actually think "subjectivism vs. realism" is clearly the key
    thing here. In particular: positing an objective morality doesn't
    clearly help.

[^11]: See my discussion of the "mystery view"
    [here](https://joecarlsmith.com/2022/12/01/against-meta-ethical-hedonism#5-the-mystery-view)
    for a bit more on this.

[^12]: Lewis claims,
    [elsewhere](https://hac.bard.edu/amor-mundi/c-s-lewis-on-comfort-and-truth-seeking-2015-05-26),
    to side with the scouts about arguments. But seek for them in his
    writing regardless, and ye shall find.

[^13]: Lewis generally has a penchant for
    argument-via-unsubtle-laying-out-of-the-options – e.g., his
    argument in *Mere* Christianity that Jesus was either a liar, or a
    lunatic, or the Lord (and does Jesus seem like a liar? Does he seem
    crazy? There's only one option left...).

[^14]: Indeed, to the extent your child has "values," they seem focused
    on, you know, the basics: crying, eating, playing, pooping. Indeed,
    if you tried to reify these "basics" into a set of endorsed values
    – for example, by "uplifting" the baby directly into
    superintelligence without first allowing it to "grow up" – then you
    risk creating a monstrosity: some grotesque and galaxy-brained
    extrapolation of play-time, need-for-mother, want-to-poop,
    want-the-toy. Thanks to Carl Shulman and Nick Beckstead for
    discussion, here. That said, I don't think I'd want other beings
    saying this sort of thing about me (e.g., the paperclippers saying
    "look at him, he's such a child, don't take his current 'values'
    seriously, let's raise him to love paperclips instead"). But I'm
    optimistic about finding some viable middle ground.

[^15]: Though note that intentionality does make a difference to
    tyranny-intuitions – e.g., there's a big difference between
    accidentally shaping someone's values, and intentionally doing so,
    for how much you seem-like-a-tyrant.

[^16]: See Soares
    [here](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Htu55gzoiYHS6TREB/sentience-matters)
    for a similar point.

[^17]: In particular: the distinction seeks to treat already-existing
    people as very different from potential-people, and death – e.g.,
    changing Alice *into* Bob – as very different from non-creation – e.g., creating Bob *instead of* Alice. But [as Parfit also taught
    us](https://rucore.libraries.rutgers.edu/rutgers-lib/40469/PDF/1/play/#page=86),
    building your ethics around distinctions like this can be rough
    going.

[^18]: And I know, too, that Bob will be very happy to have been created
    regardless.

[^19]: Let's say [you live in a
    simulation](https://jc.gatspress.com/pdf/simulation_arguments_revised.pdf)
    or something – work with me.

[^20]: Though at its best, it's the type of compatibilism that doesn't
    even get hung up on whether the universe is ultimately deterministic
    or not – the introduction of fundamental randomness doesn't make a
    difference.

[^21]: "The regenerate science which I have in mind ... would not be
    free with the words *only* and *merely*. In a word, it would conquer
    Nature without being at the same time conquered by her and buy
    knowledge at a lower cost than that of life."

[^22]: Indeed, in this respect, Yudkowsky and Feynman, for all the depth
    of their atheism, seem to me more attuned to the type of
    spirituality Lewis claims, in other contexts, to endorse – namely,
    that type that aspires to meet the Real, fully, on its own terms; to
    look God, whoever He is, in the eye. Whereas Lewis seems more
    worried that without some objectively authoritative Tao, the real
    world isn't enough.

[^23]: Strictly, even this isn't quite right: really, it's our present
    love of joy/beauty/flourishing, judging between two possible future
    types of love.

[^24]: Lewis is especially sloppy on the question of whether the ability
    to re-define a word, going forward, means that the word no longer
    has meaning for you now. If I can re-define "dog" to refer to cats
    instead, still, I can talk sensibly about dogs, now. It's like that
    old joke: "if you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?"
    We can dispute whether actually calling a tail a leg makes it a leg.
    But surely, being *able* to a call a tail a leg, going forward,
    doesn't make it a leg now.

[^25]: This is closely related to the sense in which utilitarianism
    can't distinguish very well between killing someone and
    failing-to-create-them.

[^26]: See e.g. Wei Dai's comment
    [here](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Htu55gzoiYHS6TREB/sentience-matters?commentId=pfjxsGhr4hyaKW3xK).

[^27]: And of course, we can also think about other non-human cases:
    e.g. training pets, breeding animals, and so on.

[^28]: Though we can, perhaps, subsume this under some combination of
    "interactions I consent to" and "interactions where I expect
    whatever values-changes-to-result to be 'endorsed' according to my
    current perspective."

[^29]: Albeit, with all the standard caveats about translating
    thought-experimental results into real-world practice.

[^30]: Feel free to make the Nazi a
    reflectively-coherent-killing-children-maximizer if you'd prefer.

[^31]: Indeed, it seems like you should choose the dart *over* the
    bullets.

[^32]: Though as I've noted previously, the fact that we were the ones
    who *created* the aggressors complicates the moral narrative here
    yet further.

[^33]: Of course, we do, still, have normal children – *body*-children,
    as it were. And many of these issues arise with respect to
    body-children, to – and more-so as we become more able to choose
    the traits of our body-children, including the traits relevant to
    values/virtue (e.g. empathy, patience, conscientiousness, bravery,
    integrity, etc), ahead of time. But at least with body-children, we
    have established canons of ethical practice to fall back on. AI
    mind-children implicate much more uncharted territory.

[^34]: See e.g.
    [here](https://joecarlsmith.com/2021/01/18/actually-possible-thoughts-on-utopia#iv-does-this-matter-is-it-good-to-think-about)
    and
    [here](https://joecarlsmith.com/2022/01/30/on-infinite-ethics#xvii-infinities-in-practice).
    Here I am inspired by the discussion, in the work of Ord and
    MacAskill, of the "Long Reflection" – though obviously, it's a
    further question what sorts of wisdom and reflection to expect or
    aim for in practice.

[^35]: Also, wouldn't this principle also lead them to say the same
    about you?

[^36]: Consequentialists often pass over this consideration, on the
    grounds that the good or badness of a situation *for* someone seems
    independent of whether that situation was caused "naturally" or at
    the hand of some other agent (e.g., malaria is equally bad for a
    child when it arose naturally or as a result of injustice). But
    richer ethical views often care quite a bit.

[^37]: I haven't finished the essay yet, and I'm wondering about
    splitting it into two parts.