# Meta-conversation shouldn't be taboo

I often find myself in a conversation that feels like it's falling into some sort of failure mode. Some examples:

1.  A few years ago in some job as a programmer, I remember being in this meeting. We were trying to figure out the architecture of some feature that was important and we were behind on. It shouldn't have been that hard, but the people who were working on it just kept running into issues, so someone called a big meeting with maybe 12 people in it to just "get in a room together and figure it out". But even in that meeting we weren't figuring it out. I think a big reason why is because there were too many chefs in the kitchen.
2.  At work a few months ago I recall a meeting where Bob (let's call him), continuously interrupted Alice. In such a way where Alice wasn't really ever able to express her thoughts. And I wanted to hear her thoughts. Bob had objections to all of her thoughts, hence the interruptions, but I didn't think they were strong enough objections to justify the interruptions.
3.  A few years ago there was this conversation that has always stuck with me. I was visiting my mom with my girlfriend. The three of us were chatting. I'm not big on interrupting. I do it when it seems worth it, but try to avoid it. But they just constantly interrupted each other. Like, one of them would be about 80% finished saying what they were trying to say, and the other would interrupt and start talking. I couldn't get a word in.
4.  This one is hard to describe, but... ok. When you're talking to someone, they talk, they finish what they're saying, they pause, and then you talk. Some people pause for, what seems to me, a particularly long period of time, and then continue talking. And during that pause I assume they're done and I start talking, and we end up talking over each other.
5.  A few months ago I was at [Enthea Teahouse](https://goo.gl/maps/HzCwJtFPU7U7vSd66?coh=178572&entry=tt), hanging out with some [fellow rationalists](https://portlandear.wordpress.com/). At first we were all sitting around the same table downstairs, but then as the group got larger, we split up, with half of us moving upstairs. Once we moved upstairs, two non-rationalists joined us. A girl and a guy who were boyfriend and girlfriend. For the next 2-3 hours, the girl dominated the conversation. She probably did about 80% of the talking in a group of maybe 7 of us. It was an energetic, fast-paced, and rushed type of talking. She'd also interrupt a lot. At one point she even mentioned that she gets social anxiety and responds to that by talking too much, and briefly apologized. After that I remember her boyfriend smiling and putting his hand on her leg in a way that said "you can take your foot off the gas pedal now". But she didn't.

In each of these situations, I wish that I could have spoken up and initiated a conversation about the conversation. A meta-conversation. Something like this:

1.  "I feel like this isn't working out because there are too many chefs in the kitchen. Maybe it'd be better if we just had 3-4 of us figure this out? Or split into, say, four groups of three, each group comes up with a solution, and we then meet back up and compare the solutions?"
2.  "Hey Bob, I notice that you've been interrupting Alice. I know you probably are thinking that they're justified because your interruptions are steering the conversation in a more productive direction, but I actually suspect that they aren't and would like to at least test that theory by giving Alice a little more space to express her thoughts."
3.  In this situation I actually felt comfortable enough with the both of them where I did eventually speak up. I explained that they both just keep interrupting each other and I can't get a word in. They laughed and said there's nothing wrong with it and that's just how they talk and I should feel free to do the same.
4.  "Hey, I notice that you kinda take these long pauses as you're speaking. I think I've been assuming that they indicate you finished what you were saying and then I start talking, but you actually weren't finished with what you were saying. I'm not really sure what to do here but wanted to call it out. What do you think?"
5.  This one is a tough one. It's a bit of a sensitive situation. I don't want to call her out in front of the group, but it's also a little weird, given that I don't know her, if I asked her to step aside for a moment to talk privately with me. But at the same time, her rambling kinda ruined everyone's night. So maybe something along those lines would have been worth it. "Hey Alice, I'm gonna go get some fresh air. Do you mind stepping aside with me for a sec, I wanted to ask you something?" And then: "Hey, so I noticed that you have been speaking a lot. Like maybe 80% of the time in a group of 7. I don't mean to call you out or anything but I think it'd be better if you kinda took your foot off the gas pedal a little and let others speak more. What do you think?"

After writing this, I'm reminded of this [interview with Larry David](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4whOPlSi5po). He talks about how the "true Larry" is the Curb Larry and Real Life Larry is an act. Real Life Larry has all the same thoughts as Curb Larry but just never has the courage to act on them. Real Life Larry aspires to be Curb Larry, but fails to get there. Similarly, I aspire to be the person who says all of the things in the second list, but I never[^f1g3z9dbbxn] actually get there.

Well, that's not entirely correct. I'm not sure that I aspire to say the things in that second list. To be "Curb Adam", for lack of a better phrase. Saying those sorts of things has the undesirable consequence of making people feel various bad feelings. Uncomfortable, offended, embarrassed, angry. It also has the desirable consequence of molding the shape of the conversation into a better form. Unfortunately, I think the pros usually don't outweigh the cons.

But they should! Well, "should" isn't the best word to use. Here's what I mean. Currently, in every culture I am aware of, this sort of meta-conversation is taboo.

The *extent* to which it is taboo varies. Amongst the rationalist community here in Portland it isn't as taboo as it would be if I was, say, chatting with a bunch of strangers I just met at a coffee shop. But even in the rationalist community I think it's largely taboo. I say that because meta-conversations[^sfqw887b5h] don't happen too often, and it seems to me that the reason for this is because they are a little awkward to have.

I wish that weren't the case though. I wish that the things I wrote in that second list were just viewed as normal, mundane, every-day things to say that no one batted an eye at. I wish they weren't uncomfortable or awkward. I wish that meta-conversation wasn't taboo.

[^f1g3z9dbbxn]: *rarely. Once in a while I do have some enlightened moments where "Curb Adam" takes the steering wheel. 

[^sfqw887b5h]: Well, I guess there are different types of meta-conversations. Some of them do happen and aren't awkward. Like maybe "It's getting a little cold out actually. Do you guys want to go inside?". I'm having a hard time coming up with good examples of those though. And of coming up with a good phrase for "meta-conversations of the type that currently are awkward to have".