# Bringing organ-scale cryopreservation into existence

![](https://39669.cdn.cke-cs.com/rQvD3VnunXZu34m86e5f/images/79beaf8c09b1c2d8cb33d230174e1bb509ffaafb08413a05.png)

I filmed a nearly-two-hour podcast with [Hunter Davis](https://www.linkedin.com/in/hunter-davis-b7ba1423/), the CSO and cofounder (alongside [Laura Deming](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laura_Deming)) of [Until Labs](https://www.untillabs.com/), a biotech startup trying to build reversible, organ-scale cryopreservation. There’s been no shortage of podcasts on this topic, but most of them drift into speculation, philosophy, or the usual “uploading someday maybe” futurism. I don't mind those topics, but I have been wanting a more rigorous treatment of the whole subject, something that treats cryopreservation with the same rigor as you'd treat a discussion over, say, antibody production. In the end, I just decided to make it myself, and I'm happy Hunter joined me for it!

We talk about the technical details behind [Until Labs' September 2024 progress report on neural-slice vitrification and rewarming](https://www.untillabs.com/blog/milestone-white-paper-i); how they quantify tissue damage in their early kidney cryopreservation attempts; the physics that make rewarming arguably harder than freezing; and even a bit on what the economics of real-world organ cryopreservation might look like.

Youtube: [https://youtu.be/xaqwPd3ujHg](https://youtu.be/xaqwPd3ujHg)  
Substack + Transcript: [https://www.owlposting.com/p/bringing-organ-scale-cryopreservation](https://www.owlposting.com/p/bringing-organ-scale-cryopreservation)  
Spotify: [https://open.spotify.com/episode/23g2lR7dWl8NXUn893KMgv?si=5628cd0e56184130](https://open.spotify.com/episode/23g2lR7dWl8NXUn893KMgv?si=5628cd0e56184130)  
Apple Podcasts: [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bringing-organ-scale-cryopreservation-into-existence/id1758545538?i=1000738128994](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bringing-organ-scale-cryopreservation-into-existence/id1758545538?i=1000738128994)  
 

Timestamps here just in case it helps you assess whether this is at all interesting to you:

\[00:00:00\] Clips  
\[00:01:50\] Introduction  
\[00:05:00\] Why don’t we have reversible cryopreservation today?  
\[00:07:05\] Why is freezing necessary at all for preservation?  
\[00:08:23\] Let’s discuss cryoprotectant agents  
\[00:14:09\] Until Lab’s 2024 progress report on neural tissue cryopreservation  
\[00:20:28\] How do you measure cryopreserved tissue damage?  
\[00:22:34\] Translation across species  
\[00:26:04\] Why was the cryopreservation storage time so short in the progress report?  
\[00:30:47\] Nuances of loading cryoprotectants into tissue  
\[00:37:03\] Let’s discuss rewarming  
\[00:43:02\] What scientific problems amongst vitrification and rewarming keep you up at night?  
\[00:45:58\] Why are there so few cryoprotectants?  
\[00:48:11\] How can you improve rewarming capabilities?  
\[00:53:03\] What are the experimental costs of running cryopreservation studies?  
\[00:57:49\] What happens to the cryoprotectants and iron oxide nanoparticles after the organ has been thawed?  
\[01:01:34\] Cryopreservation and immune response  
\[01:03:25\] How do you filter through the cryopreservation literature  
\[01:05:54\] How much is molecular simulation used at Until Labs?  
\[01:10:04\] What are the (expected) economics of Until Labs?  
\[01:14:49\] How much does cryopreservation practically solve the organ shortage problem?  
\[01:17:04\] Synergy between xenotransplantation and cryopreservation  
\[01:21:12\] How much will the final cryopreservation protocol likely cost?  
\[01:21:58\] Who ends up paying for this?  
\[01:23:28\] What was it like to raise a Series A on such an unorthodox thesis?  
\[01:27:49\] What are common misconceptions people have about cryopreservation?  
\[01:29:58\] The beginnings of Until Labs  
\[01:34:07\] What expertise is hardest to recruit for?  
\[01:39:27\] What personality type do you most value when hiring?  
\[01:44:17\] Why work in cryopreservation as opposed to anything else?  
\[01:46:26\] Until Lab’s competitors  
\[01:49:30\] What would an alternative universe version of Hunter worked on?  
\[01:51:33\] What would you do with $100M?