# Can we build a better Public Doublecrux?

Something I'd like to try at LessOnline is to somehow iterate on the "Public Doublecrux" format. I'm not sure if I'll end up focusing on it, but here are some ideas.

Public Doublecrux is a more truthseeking oriented version of Public Debate. The goal of a debate is to change your opponent's mind or the public's mind. The goal of a doublecrux is more like "work with your partner to figure out if you should change your mind, and vice versa."

Reasons to want to do *public* doublecrux include:

*   It helps showcase subtle mental moves that are hard to write down explicitly (i.e. tacit knowledge transfer.
*   There's still something good and exciting about seeing high profile smart people talk about ideas. Having some variant of that format seems good for LessOnline. And having at least 1-2 "doublecruxes" rather than "debates" or "panels" or "interviews" seems good for culture setting.
*   In addition to being "exciting" and "possible to learn from" to have public figures doublecrux, I think it'd also be nice from a culture setting standpoint. This is a place where people don't play rhetorical tricks to manipulate people – it's a place where people earnestly move towards the truth.

| *Sidebar: Public Debate is also good although not what I'm gonna focus on here.* I know several people who have argued that "debate-qua-debate" is also an important part of a truthseeking culture. It's fine if the individuals are trying to "present the best case for their position", so long as the collective process steers towards truth. Adversarial Collaboration is good. Public disagreement is good. I do generally buy this, although I have some disagreements with the people who argue most strongly for Debate. I think I prefer it to happen in written longform than in person, where charisma puts a heavier thumb on the scale. And I think while it can produce social good, many variants of it seem... kinda bad for the epistemic souls of the people participating? By becoming a champion for a particular idea, people seem to get more tunnel-vision-y about it. Sometimes worth it, but, I've felt some kind of [missing mood](https://www.econlib.org/archives/2016/01/the_invisible_t.html) here when arguing with people in the past. I'm happy to chat about this in the comments more but mostly won't be focusing on it here. |
| --- |

Historically I think public doublecruxes have had some problems:

1.  First, having the live audience there makes it a bit more awkward and performative. It's harder to "earnestly truthseek" when there's a crowd you'd still kinda like to persuade of your idea, or at least not sound stupid in front of.
2.  Historically, people who have ended up doing "public doublecrux" hadn't actually really understood or really bought into the process. They often end up veering towards either classical debate, or "just kinda talking."
3.  When two people *are* actually changing \*their\* minds tend to get into idiosyncratic [frames](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/f886riNJcArmpFahm/noticing-frame-differences) that are hard for observers to understand. Hell, it's even hard for *two people in the discussion* to understand. They're chasing *their* cruxes, rather than presenting "generally compelling arguments." This tends to require getting into weeds and go down rabbit holes that don't feel relevant to most people.

With that in mind, here are some ideas:

*   Maybe have the double cruxers in a private room, with videocameras. The talk is broadcast live to other conference-goers, but the actual chat is in a nice cozy room. This doesn't fully solve the "public awkwardness" problem, but maybe mediates it a bit.
*   Have two (or three?) dedicated facilitators. [*More Dakka*](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/z8usYeKX7dtTWsEnk/more-dakka)*.* More on that below.

For the facilators:

One is in the room with the doublecruxers, focused on helping them steer towards useful questions. They probably try to initially guide the participants towards communicating their basic position, and then ironing out their differences in ontology. They ask questions like "can you paraphrase what you think the other person's position is?".

The *second* (and maybe third) facilitator hangs out with the audience outside, and is focused on tracking "what is the audience confused about?". The audience participates in a live google doc where they're organizing the conversational threads and asking questions. 

The first facilitator is periodically surreptitiously checking the google doc or chat, and maybe periodically summarizing their guess of the state-of-the-debate for the audience's benefit.

Those were just some starting ideas, but my most important point here is to approach this as an unsolved "product development" problem. Invest in trial runs with different participants and audiences, with a specific eye towards identifying the problems and ironing out kinks.

Some comments from other discussions
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I'd previously talked about this on facebook and twitter. Two comments that seemed particularly good to crosspost as potential ideas:

Duncan Sabien suggested:

> My first off-the-top idea is actually more like Circling double crux. Two people are double cruxing (or similar) while a third party is right there with them, and periodically (after no less than 1min and no more than like 6min of back-and-forth) interrupts them to draw out "okay, what was going on there? What were you doing in your head? What was the goal of that probe?" etc.
> 
> So the two main participants are spending half their time progressing on the object level, and half their time expositing about what's going on in their heads.

Duncan didn't specify his goals here, but my interpretation (which seems worth exploring to me), is that this is meant to both:

*   fix some problems where participants often are getting caught in various cognitive habits that just... aren't what they sat down to do. And explicitly attending to that helps one notice and (maybe) just step back out. Or, at least make a conscious choice about it. 
*   help each participant track what's going on *in the other person's head,* which they might otherwise be confused about.
*   help the audience track why the heck the participants are talking about the things they're talking about.

Divia noted:

> I’ve done some public double crux attempts! I’d say I had varying results.
> 
> I found it super important for me to do a lot of cruxing mapping and repeated summarizing and checking
> 
> Some of them turned into basically what I would call trying to understand one of the people’s positions and mostly ignoring the other one
> 
> Here's a twitter thread about a double crux of Eli's that I liked: [https://twitter.com/diviacaroline/status/1300866586736078849?t=6YPjIbROUmU6ukEBS492kw](https://twitter.com/diviacaroline/status/1300866586736078849?t=6YPjIbROUmU6ukEBS492kw) 

Meanwhile, on twitter Anna Salamon suggested:

> I think it’s wise to also map out anti cruxes: statements that both parties already agree about and expect to continue agreeing about regardless of how the discussion goes (that are as near as possible to the disagreement). Useful in private, more useful in public.

I replied:

> ah yeah, that sounds right. (though I'm not really a fan of the "anti-crux" name for it, I'd naively just think that means "thing that doesn't matter")
> 
> (I had always thought it'd make sense for 'the double crux' to be called 'the common crux', since it was more clear that it was shared between the people. And, if you had that, you might naturally call 'the things we both believe' the 'common ground')

(I thought about trying to call it "Common Crux" in this post to facilitate my agenda of renaming it, but that seemed more likely to be confusing than helpful. If I end up pursuing this project in more detail I might push for it more tho)

Ideas or Volunteers?
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Those are some takes for now. I'm not sure if I'm going to pursue this right now, but thought I'd leave these thoughts for now. 

I'm interested in both:

*   ideas for how to either innovate on public doublecrux, or various other flavors of truthseeking public discussion
*   see if there are people interested in putting work into experimenting with this sort of thing. (I may be kind of picky about who I personally want to work with, but also think it's cool if other people run with the ideas in various directions on their own)