# LLMs Look Increasingly Like General Reasoners

Summary
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Four months after my post ['LLM Generality is a Timeline Crux'](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/k38sJNLk7YbJA72ST/llm-generality-is-a-timeline-crux), new research on o1-preview should update us significantly toward LLMs being capable of general reasoning, and hence of scaling straight to AGI, and shorten our timeline estimates.

Update
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Since writing this post, my continuing interest in this question has led to empirical research on the topic: [this post](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/RSqfcyAW9ZkveGQ5u/numberwang-llms-doing-autonomous-research-and-a-call-for-1) describes both a completed pilot project and the plan for a now-underway larger project, expected to finish in mid-2025.

Summary of previous post
------------------------

In June of 2024, I wrote a post, ['LLM Generality is a Timeline Crux'](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/k38sJNLk7YbJA72ST/llm-generality-is-a-timeline-crux), in which I argue that 

1.  LLMs seem on their face to be improving rapidly at reasoning.
2.  But there are some interesting exceptions where they still fail much more badly than one would expect given the rest of their capabilities, having to do with general reasoning. Some argue based on these exceptions that much of their apparent reasoning capability is much shallower than it appears, and that we're being fooled by having trouble internalizing just how vast their training data is.
3.  If in fact this is the case, we should be much more skeptical of the sort of scale-straight-to-AGI argument made by authors like [Leopold Aschenbrenner](https://situational-awareness.ai/) and the short timeline that implies, because substantial additional breakthroughs will be needed first.

Reasons to update
-----------------

In the original post, I gave the three main pieces of evidence against LLMs doing general reasoning that I found most compelling: blocksworld, planning/scheduling, and ARC-AGI (see original for details). All three of those seem importantly weakened in light of recent research.

Most dramatically, a new paper on blocksworld has recently been published by some of the same highly LLM-skeptical researchers (Valmeekam et al, led by Subbarao Kambhampati[^et5cj1zga47]: ['LLMs Still Can’t Plan; Can LRMs? A Preliminary Evaluation of OpenAI’s o1 on Planbench'](https://arxiv.org/abs/2409.13373). Where the best previous success rate on non-obfuscated blocksworld was 57.6%, o1-preview essentially saturates the benchmark with 97.8%. On obfuscated blocksworld, where previous LLMs had proved almost entirely incapable (0.8% zero-shot, 4.3% one-shot), o1-preview jumps all the way to a 52.8% success rate. In my view, this jump in particular should update us significantly toward the LLM architecture being capable of general reasoning[^v10badl2pv].

o1-preview also does much better on ARC-AGI than gpt-4o, jumping from 9% to 21.2% on the public eval (['OpenAI o1 Results on ARC-AGI-Pub'](https://arcprize.org/blog/openai-o1-results-arc-prize)). Note that since my original post, Claude-3.5-Sonnet also reached 21% on the public eval.

The planning/scheduling evidence, on the other hand, seemed weaker almost immediately after the post; a commenter quickly [pointed out](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/k38sJNLk7YbJA72ST/llm-generality-is-a-timeline-crux?commentId=PxYQ6CzmD9owzagE6) that the paper was full of errors. Nonetheless, note that another recent paper looks at a broader range of planning problems and also finds substantial improvements from o1-preview, although arguably not the same level of 0-to-1 improvement that Valmeekam et al find with obfuscated blocksworld (['On The Planning Abilities of OpenAI’s o1 Models: Feasibility, Optimality, and Generalizability'](https://arxiv.org/abs/2409.19924v1)).

I would be grateful to hear about other recent research that helps answer these questions (and thanks to [@Archimedes](https://www.lesswrong.com/users/archimedes?mention=user) for calling my attention to these papers).

Discussion
----------

My overall conclusion, and the reason I think it's worth posting this follow-up, is that I believe the new evidence should update all of us toward LLMs scaling straight to AGI, and therefore toward timelines being relatively short. Time will continue to tell, of course, and I have a [research project](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f7ky9DP5c02OftKaImoX9Dy_NHENlQG5mAQGxWhaXV4) planned for early spring that aims to more rigorously investigate whether LLMs are capable of the particular sorts of general reasoning that will allow them to perform novel scientific research end-to-end.

My own numeric updates follow.

Updated probability estimates
-----------------------------

(text copied from my previous post is italicized for clarity on what changed)

*   *LLMs continue to do better at block world and ARC as they scale: **75%*** **-\> 100%**, this is now a thing that has happened.
*   *LLMs entirely on their own reach the grand prize mark on the ARC prize (solving 85% of problems on the open leaderboard) before hybrid approaches like Ryan's: **10%*** **-\> 20%**, this still seems quite unlikely to me (especially since hybrid approaches have showed continuing improvement on ARC). Most of my additional credence is on something like 'the full o1 turns out to already be close to the grand prize mark' and the rest on 'researchers, perhaps working with o1, manage to find an improvement to current LLM technique (eg a better prompting approach) that can be easily fixed'.
*   *Scaffolding & tools help a lot, so that the next gen (GPT-5, Claude 4) + Python + a for loop can reach the grand prize mark: **60%*** **-\> 75%** \-\- I'm tempted to put it higher, but it wouldn't be *that* surprising if o2 didn't quite get there even with scaffolding/tools, especially since we don't have clear insight into how much harder the private test set is.
*   *Same but for the gen after that (GPT-6, Claude 5): **75%*** **-\> 90%**? I feel less sure about this one than the others; it seems awfully likely that o3 plus scaffolding will be able to do it.
*   *The current architecture, including scaffolding & tools, continues to improve to the point of being able to do original AI research: **65%*** **-\> 80%**. That sure does seem like the world we're living in. It seems plausible to me that o1 could already do some original AI research with the right scaffolding. [Sakana](https://sakana.ai/ai-scientist/) claims to have already gotten there with GPT-4o / Sonnet, but their claims seem overblown to me. Regardless, I have trouble seeing a very plausible block to this.

**Citations**
-------------

['LLMs Still Can’t Plan; Can LRMs? A Preliminary Evaluation of Openai’S O1 on Planbench'](https://arxiv.org/abs/2409.13373), Valmeekam et al (includes Kambhampati) 09/24 

['OpenAI o1 Results on ARC-AGI-Pub'](https://arcprize.org/blog/openai-o1-results-arc-prize), Mike Knoop 09/24

['On The Planning Abilities of OpenAI’s o1 Models: Feasibility, Optimality, and Generalizability'](https://arxiv.org/abs/2409.19924v1), Wang et al 09/24. $$

[^et5cj1zga47]: I am restraining myself with some difficulty from jumping up and down and yelling about the level of goalpost-moving in this new paper. 

[^v10badl2pv]: There's a sense in which comparing results from previous LLMs with o1-preview isn't entirely an apples-to-apples comparison, since o1-preview is throwing a lot more inference-time compute at the problem. In that way it's similar to Ryan's hybrid approach to ARC-AGI, as discussed in the original post. But since the key question here is whether LLMs are capable of general reasoning at all, that doesn't really change my thinking here; certainly there are many problems (like capabilities research) where companies will be perfectly happy to spend a lot on compute to get a better answer.