GiliGold/VAD_KnessetCorpus huggingface dataset:
זהבה גלאון: נשמח לשמוע מכם, בעיקר נשמח להתמקד כמובן בסוגיית הפללת הלקוחות, העמדה לדין של הלקוחות אבל נשמח לשמוע מכם מה היו הגורמים שעיצבו את החקיקה אצלכם, במדינה שלכם, באיזה אופן לקוחות מופללים, כמה לקוחות נעצרו מאז שהחוק נכנס לתוקף, האם קדמה למהלך החוקתי פעילות חינוכית, קמפיינים ציבוריים.
זהבה גלאון: כמה אנשים בכלל הועמדו לדין, איך הדבר הזה עובד, ובעיקר נרצה לדעת איך הציבור קיבל את המהלך הזה של הפללה, של העמדה לדין של לקוחות, האם הוא קיבל את זה באהדה או האם הייתה התנגדות או האם לקח זמן עד שאנשים הפנימו.
זהבה גלאון: כי אנחנו רואים שבמדינת ישראל, נשמע אחר כך ביתר פירוט על ממצאי סקר דעת קהל שנערך רק לאחרונה לבקשתנו.
זהבה גלאון: במדינת ישראל רווחים מיתוסים, דעות קדומות וסטראוטיפים שמאפשרים הצדקות לעמדה שגברים צורכים מין בכסף.
זהבה גלאון: אסיים כאן את הפתיחה הקצרה מאוד.
זהבה גלאון: אשמח שאתם תיתנו לנו מהניסיון שלכם, מהמידע שיש לכם.
זהבה גלאון: אנחנו פותחים עם השגריר המיוחד מטעם משרד החוץ השבדי שכמו שציינתי קודם לכן, הגיע במיוחד משוודיה.
זהבה גלאון: הוא מתנצל מראש, הוא צריך לעזוב בשעה 1 מכיוון שהוא טס חזרה לשבדיה.
זהבה גלאון: זה ביקורים קצרים, אנחנו מעריכים את זה מאוד ומודים לך מאוד, בבקשה.
אנדרס אולילונד: Thank you very much.
אנדרס אולילונד: Thank you for inviting me to this meeting.
אנדרס אולילונד: I’m glad you want to hear a little bit about our experience and our legislation.
אנדרס אולילונד: I’m not from the Swedish embassy.
אנדרס אולילונד: I am from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Stockholm, and coordinating with the ministries in trafficking.
אנדרס אולילונד: Before going into what we really want to discuss, the customers and the prostitution, let me put our legislation into the broader context of trade in human beings.
אנדרס אולילונד: As in most countries in the world, and as in all European countries, we have legislation against trafficking.
אנדרס אולילונד: It is currently part of the penal code in Sweden, and the definition of trafficking follows the general guidelines we are used to from the so-called protocol definitions, the United Nations commission.
אנדרס אולילונד: Since 2004 it has been part of the penal code.
אנדרס אולילונד: The maximum sentence is 10 years for trafficking.
אנדרס אולילונד: We were against trafficking, but the market in Sweden is mainly trafficking for sexual purposes.
אנדרס אולילונד: We have a few cases of labor abuse, but it’s not widespread in Sweden, as far as we know.
אנדרס אולילונד: But I want to underline that: as far as we know.
אנדרס אולילונד: I think the Swedish labor market is different from the one we have in Israel, because it’s very hard to regulate it, it’s very transparent, and you do not have over there the kind of industries that attract slave labor.
אנדרס אולילונד: But I would not exclude in Sweden from slave labor, but so far we have concentrated on trafficking for sexual purposes.
אנדרס אולילונד: And there the market in Sweden comes mainly from our neighboring countries, the bordering countries — Russia, Eastern Europe, and so on.
אנדרס אולילונד: We have a program against trafficking which comprises prevention, how do we prevent, how do we prosecute, and do we protect.
אנדרס אולילונד: These are the three P’s that some of you have heard about.
אנדרס אולילונד: When it comes to prevention, we think that a country should try to address the root causes in the countries of origin.
אנדרס אולילונד: We have done that for a long time, long before the legislation, through our development corporation in developing countries, and in Eastern Europe as well.
אנדרס אולילונד: That program tries to address trafficking.
אנדרס אולילונד: I have it here in English.
אנדרס אולילונד: It gives a number of examples of the connection between - - - socialist, conflicts, lack of equality, etcetera, in the countries of origin, and how you can, in your development corporation, try to arrest that.
אנדרס אולילונד: So far, prevention in the countries of origin.
אנדרס אולילונד: And then we come back to prevention in the countries of destination, that is, our market.
אנדרס אולילונד: For prosecution, we have legislation.
אנדרס אולילונד: I think all countries now have sufficient national legislation.
אנדרס אולילונד: What lacks in our country and all over is implementation of the legislation.
אנדרס אולילונד: We have seen ourselves rather far by giving special resources to the police in the main cities; to the police and the prosecutors, and also to the courts to prosecute cases of trafficking.
אנדרס אולילונד: But even if resources have been relatively good, there is still a lack of training, awareness, training police people, training of prosecutors, training even the judges to understand when they may have a case of trafficking before them.
אנדרס אולילונד: The number of cases that have been prosecuted so far is in all countries relatively low.
אנדרס אולילונד: In Sweden in 2005 we had 44 cases brought before the court, and only 7 of these were sentenced.
אנדרס אולילונד: We have these same figures throughout the period, and the legislation is now about 8 years old.
אנדרס אולילונד: There is an annual report from the police, and I can hand it over to you in English, indicating how they have to see the cases of trafficking.
אנדרס אולילונד: That’s about prosecution.
אנדרס אולילונד: Prosecution is possible if you have the resources.
אנדרס אולילונד: Protection of victims I think is the most difficult area.
אנדרס אולילונד: We have programs locally in Sweden, and we have cooperation with the border countries and the wider area of the countries of origin, to protect the victims and also to try to reintegrate those victims who wish in their home countries, to reintegrate them into some kind of simple occupation again.
אנדרס אולילונד: The methods we use are about the same as in Israel: providing temporary visa for a stay of 6 months, giving them - - - protection, and encouraging cooperation with the courts, because, as you know, the witnesses are also the victims.
אנדרס אולילונד: The most important part, we feel, about preventing trading in human beings is to address the demand.
אנדרס אולילונד: There I come to the subject of today’s meeting.
אנדרס אולילונד: Demand in Sweden has been part of the legislation well before trafficking was addressed as a problem.
אנדרס אולילונד: Already in 1999, that is almost 9 or 10 years ago, we introduced in Sweden legislation against prostitution which was then rather unique in Europe, and unique in the world I think.
אנדרס אולילונד: It’s still rather unique.
אנדרס אולילונד: A few countries have voted to — Norway will soon, and think South Korea has something similar, and - - - countries.
אנדרס אולילונד: And that criminalizes the buyer of sexual services, while it does not criminalize the seller, the girl.
אנדרס אולילונד: In general, all kinds of prostitution, female and male prostitution, all kinds of prostitution - - - That legislation was passed not as a measure against trafficking.
אנדרס אולילונד: Trafficking, as I said, was hardly known as a problem 10 years ago.
אנדרס אולילונד: It was a consequence of — and one must understand in order to understand the Swedish legislation, that we had had a debate in Sweden for 10 or 20 years before we - - - between men and women.
אנדרס אולילונד: You cannot understand the Swedish legislation on prostitution penalizing only the buyer and not the seller if you haven’t followed and if you haven’t understood the relationship between the sexes.
אנדרס אולילונד: And that, in turn, is a consequence of a long discussion, political and research, that has taken place in Sweden, not only in parliament but on various levels.
אנדרס אולילונד: I can also say that without that many women, not only in politics but also in research in many levels, that kind of legislation wouldn’t have passed.
אנדרס אולילונד: We looked upon the buying of sexual services as an act of violence, using the vulnerability of the girl.
אנדרס אולילונד: One also wouldn’t understand the Swedish legislation if one doesn’t accept that no prostitute, no girl or male prostitute, has chosen that profession of their own free will.
אנדרס אולילונד: All prostitution is forced in one way or the other: by circumstances, by social background, by lack of education, by lack of equality, due to conflict — any number of reasons.
אנדרס אולילונד: If one doesn’t accept that, and people may not, of course, then it is theoretically or philosophically a little bit difficult to understand Swedish legislation.
אנדרס אולילונד: We had the debate in the 1970s about legalizing prostitution, and that was another human rights aspect.
אנדרס אולילונד: We said at that time that women’s rights must include the right to her body, to the extent that she has the right to sell it.
אנדרס אולילונד: But if you think so, then the foundation must be some kind of equality, equality between the sexes.
אנדרס אולילונד: If you don’t have that equality, we found, then it’s difficult to talk about an equal relationship, buying and selling as if sex was any kind of commercial commodity.
אנדרס אולילונד: So this is the background for the legislation introduced in 1999.
אנדרס אולילונד: Punishment is up till 6 months in jail.
אנדרס אולילונד: So far, very few people have been sentenced to jail.
אנדרס אולילונד: The normal sentence is a fine.
אנדרס אולילונד: The number of men being prosecuted and sentenced is relatively low.
אנדרס אולילונד: Several hundred each year.
אנדרס אולילונד: In 2000, of 92 suspects, 22 were sentenced.
אנדרס אולילונד: In 2001, of 86 suspects, 20 were fined.
אנדרס אולילונד: In 2005, we had 460 suspects, because we had a campaign that year, but out of these 460, only 48 men were sentenced.
אנדרס אולילונד: I’m not talking about trafficking, but buying of sexual services, simple sexual services.
אנדרס אולילונד: So that proves how difficult it is also in prostitution to prove, because the only witness normally is the girl.
אנדרס אולילונד: There could be other witnesses, but normally police are not present at that situation.
אנדרס אולילונד: So it is difficult to prove.
אנדרס אולילונד: And the witnesses, the victims, are often dependent on their clients and more so dependent on their pimps, so even in that case you have to give protection and support to a victim to make arrangements for her to testify against the buyer.
אנדרס אולילונד: Many ask us what has been the result of the legislation.
אנדרס אולילונד: I mentioned the number of sentencings.
אנדרס אולילונד: One result is that prostitution has, mainly, disappeared in Sweden from the streets.
אנדרס אולילונד: We don’t see it on the streets any longer.
אנדרס אולילונד: That development would perhaps have taken place anyway, because nowadays it’s more internet, it’s more - - - , it’s more restaurants and pubs and even some brothels than on the street.
אנדרס אולילונד: So that development might have taken place.
אנדרס אולילונד: Another development is that prostitution has become more a question of women coming from abroad.
אנדרס אולילונד: The usual Swedish prostitute, being in the profession so to speak for many, many years, has not disappeared, but now we see girls coming from neighboring countries for a few days, staying one day, one week, one month, and then disappearing again, and coming back later.
אנדרס אולילונד: So I wouldn’t say - - - because you can easily read it on the internet.
אנדרס אולילונד: But it’s very quick.
אנדרס אולילונד: How many?
אנדרס אולילונד: We don’t know.
אנדרס אולילונד: The police are reluctant to give any figures, because they say the more resources you give to the police, the more victims we will find.
אנדרס אולילונד: But the figures from 2005 was perhaps 460 girls circulating each year in Sweden from abroad, from neighboring countries, which is not that many.
אנדרס אולילונד: It’s a few, but not that many compared to many other southern European countries.
אנדרס אולילונד: Has the legislation helped?
אנדרס אולילונד: Yes, it think it has.
אנדרס אולילונד: Against not only against prostitution, but also against trafficking.
אנדרס אולילונד: The traffickers — and this is on record from our police, Interpol, and also neighboring countries — find the Swedish market less attractive today because the clients are hesitant, and so they prefer to go to other markets in neighboring countries.
אנדרס אולילונד: This is our impression.
אנדרס אולילונד: So probably it has diminished trafficking.
אנדרס אולילונד: Has it had the effect of Swedes going abroad to buy sex in neighboring countries instead?
אנדרס אולילונד: Perhaps.
אנדרס אולילונד: If that is an effect of the legislation or an effect of people traveling more easily today, I can’t tell.
אנדרס אולילונד: But it is a fact that even if you have the moral in Sweden not to buy sex — and I think 80 percent of the Swedish population is not in favor of it; I can’t say 80 percent of Swedes never buy sex; maybe it takes place abroad — it is sad to see that the moral in Sweden is respected in our own country, but when you leave your country you look upon girls in another country as something different.
אנדרס אולילונד: Because the aim of the Swedish legislation is not only to eradicate prostitution in Sweden, but to diminish it all over.
אנדרס אולילונד: Now I have not been talking about child sex and child - - - I would like to bring that up also, but maybe on another occasion.
זהבה גלאון: תודה רבה לשגריר אולילונד על הסקירה המרתקת והמקיפה על הנעשה בארצך.
זהבה גלאון: אנחנו מודים לך שוב מאוד על ההשתתפות ועל העובדה שהגעת במיוחד לישיבה.
זהבה גלאון: אני רוצה להציג בפניכם, משתתפות איתנו בישיבה 3 חברות כנסת, חברת הכנסת מרינה סולודקין, חברת הכנסת נאדיה חילו וחברת הכנסת אורית נוקד וכמובן נציגים ונציגות של ארגוני זכויות אדם שפועלים במשך התקופה ובשנים האחרונות ונאבקים באופן נחרץ למיגור תופעת הסחר בבני אדם וכמובן התכנסנו לדיון הזה כדי לראות איך מטפלים באותה צלע שלישית במשולש של נשים, קורבנות, סוחרים –עבריינים.
זהבה גלאון: אני מודה לך מאוד, זו זוית מאוד מעניינית, אני רק רוצה לעדכן אתכם האורחים, אנחנו כאן בכנסת נעים בין הגישה שהוצגה על ידך אדוני השגריר, הגישה שמדברת שזנות אינה בחירה חופשית, בין נקודת המוצא הזו לבין נקודת מוצא שאומרת שזנות זה מקצוע ככל המקצועות ואולי יש צורך למסד אותה.
זהבה גלאון: אני שמה את הדברים על השולחן כי יש כאן אנשים, העמדה שלי לא בהכרח משקפת את עמדתם של כל חברי הוועדה ולכן אני רוצה להביא את זה לידיעתכם.
זהבה גלאון: אנחנו פועלים על הציר בין העמדה הזאת מצד אחד שאני באופן אישי כמובן מחזיקה בה לבין עמדות אחרות שנשמע כאן, גם מחברת הכנסת סולודקין ומאחרים.
זהבה גלאון: אני רוצה שוב להודות לך.
זהבה גלאון: נשמע עכשיו את הממונה על השגרירות הפליפינית מר ג'ילברטו אסוקה, נשמח לשמוע מה קורה אצלכם בארצך, בבקשה.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Thank you very much, Madam Chair, Zahava Galon, the chair of the subcommittee of trafficking in women.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Boker tov! And good morning also to the members of the Knesset for this opportunity of speaking to parliamentarians, legislators, non-government officers, to address this problem of trafficking in persons.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: First of all, I would like to note that trafficking in persons is becoming a global concern because of globalization, the relaxation of borders, and the facility in the movement of people from one country to another.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: It facilitates the movement, and also the movement of the problem.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: We’re glad that the Knesset subcommittee is looking at this problem, because I think all the democratic, civilized nations will have to expand the safety net for victims of trafficking in persons.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: We would also like to thank the ambassador against trafficking in human beings in Sweden.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: I think he has given the basic broad perspective of this global problem and the actions that should be taken by countries.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: In the Philippines, certainly it is a problem that we would to like to look into.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: But I have to point out from the very beginning, never in the legal history of the Philippines has prostitution been considered to be a legalized profession.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Never! It has never been considered.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: We are a Christian nation.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: The majority of the Philippine population is Christian, and it is marked by faith and a belief that prostitution is illegal and it has never, never been considered in any form to legalize prostitution.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: In fact, it has been reinforced in various regulations and laws in the Philippines, which I’m going to offer in this presentation.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Women are often lured abroad with false promises of legitimate employment.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Again, legitimate employment, and are trafficked to destinations throughout Asia, the Middle East, Africa, Europe, and North America.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Going straight now to the subject of this forum, the Philippines has two legislations, major legislations against trafficking.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: One is Republic Act 9208, called the Anti-Trafficking in Persons Act of 2003.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: This was complemented by Republic Act 9262, which is called the Anti-Violence Against Women and Their Children Act of 2004.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: There are other complementary legislations to this which I will draw attention to as related parts of this presentation.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: First of all, copies of these legislations, Madam, I think I have provided you, and they are also available on the web site.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: I think that Madam Chair will be giving you copies of the Philippine legislation.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Let me precede first with the Republic Act 9208 or the Anti-Trafficking in Persons Act of 2003.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: What are the outstanding features?
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: First, this legislation enables the Philippines to comply with its international obligation under the United Nations protocol to prevent, suppress, and punish trafficking in persons.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Act 9208 is the most comprehensive anti-trafficking legislation in Asia, as the law not only seeks to penalize acts of trafficking and acts that promote trafficking in persons, but it also seeks to institutionalize a mechanism for the prevention of trafficking and the protection and support of trafficked persons.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: The law covers the whole spectrum of initiatives to combat trafficking.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: They are: prevention, protection, law enforcement, prosecution, recovery, and reintegration.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: As I mentioned, the law is consistent with and faithful to the principles and guidelines enunciated in the UN protocol.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: The definition of trafficking under this law, which is almost a verbatim reinstatement of that contained in the UN protocol, went even a step further by emphatically declaring that trafficking in persons can occur with or without the consent of the person being trafficked.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: There is an interagency council against trafficking, which was prohibited under Section 20 of this law, the Anti-Trafficking in Persons Act of 2003.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: But let me go on to the substance this law, to focus more on the purpose of this hearing.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: First we have definitions of what acts constitute promoting trafficking.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: There’s also a provision in this law stating what acts constitute qualified trafficking, and qualified trafficking in persons is committed when the trafficked person is below 18 years of age.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Adoption is through the inter-country adoption law, and if the adoption is for prostitution, it is qualified trafficking.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Qualified trafficking also is an act committed by a syndicate on a large scale.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: There are many definitions of this in the law, and you can look further.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Who is criminally liable for trafficking in persons?
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: I think this is the client, those who seek persons for trafficking.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Our republic act says that any person, natural or juridical, who commits any offense under Republic Act 9208 may be punished for trafficking acts.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: If the offender is a corporation, partnership, association, established or any juridical person, the penalty shall be imposed on the owner, president, partner, manager, or any responsible officer who participated in the commission of the crime or who shall have knowingly permitted or failed to prevent its commission.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Up to when can cases of trafficking acts be filed?
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Meaning, what is the proscriptive period?
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Cases of trafficking acts may be filed up to 10 years after they are committed.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: If trafficking is committed by a syndicate or on a large scale, cases can be filed up to 20 years after the act.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: The so-called proscriptive period is counted from the day the trafficked person is delivered or released from the conditions of bondage.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Who can file them?
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: The trafficked persons, the trafficked person’s parents, spouse, siblings, children, or legal guardian, or anyone who has personal knowledge of the crime can file the case.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Where can it be filed?
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: It can be filed in established cases in the courts, meaning the regional trial court or the family court in the Philippines.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: But there are jurisdictional issues.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: You have to file the case in the jurisdiction where crime is committed.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Trafficking cases may be filed in places where the offenses were committed or where any of its elements occurred.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: So the law gives the victim the facility to file the case wherever it is most convenient by defining where it was committed in any of its elements, or where the trafficked person resides at the time of the commission of the act.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: These are the penalties for those convicted of trafficking in persons: Qualified trafficking in persons, which I have defined:
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: life imprisonment and a fine of 2 million pesos to 5 million pesos.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Life imprisonment goes up to 25 years maximum.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Because if a person is already 75 years old, the penal court provides that the person cannot serve the life in prison.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: But if a person is convicted at age, let’s say 35 years old, the maximum he will serve in prison is 25 years.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: It depends on the gravity of the event.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: That is qualified trafficking in persons, which I defined earlier.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Trafficking in persons per se: 20 years imprisonment and a fine of 1 million to 2 million pesos.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Promoting trafficking in persons: 15 years in prison and a fine of 500,000 pesos to 1 million.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Use of trafficked persons for prostitution: first offense, 6 months community service and a fine of 50,000 pesos; and subsequent offenses, 1 year imprisonment and a fine of 100,000 pesos.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Also the court shall order the confiscation and forfeiture in favor of the government of all the proceeds and property derived from commission of the crime.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Our legislation also provides the process by which the complaint can be filed.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Because trafficking in persons necessitates the use of violence to get that person to commit the prohibited act, this law is complemented by Republic Act 9262.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: It’s called “An Act Defining Violence Against Women and Their Children,” and this was signed into law on March 8, 2004.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: I would like to emphasize that in this law, copies of which are provided to the committee, it states there the declared policy of the state that values the dignity of women and children and guarantees full respect for human rights.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: But what is important in this supplementary law is section 25, which declares: “Violence against women and their children shall be considered a public offense which may be prosecuted upon the filing of a complaint by any citizen having personal knowledge of the circumstances involving the commission of the crime.” What acts constitute violence against women?
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: The definition of the term: physical violence, including bodily or physical harm; sexual violence; psychological violence; economic abuse.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: Economic abuse is when that person withdraws or withholds funds, money, that is destined for the women or for the families that is covered by this law.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: There are definitions also of battering, the battered women’s syndrome; stalking; dating relationship; sexual relations; a safe place to shelter children, etcetera.
ג'ילברטו אסוקה: So the law is comprehensive.